From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sat Dec 1 06:29:49 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011201001259.018ec10c@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011201072912.00adf850@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 12:12 AM 12/1/01 -0500, you wrote: >what kind of audio outputs does your system have? Just speaker connections and headphone jack. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 1 11:23:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011201072912.00adf850@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <003e01c17a8c$ee01f3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've never seen a sound card that didn't have the means to convert "speaker" outputs to "line" outputs in some way or other, mostly with jumpers. I don't for a minute doubt that they exist, but if you look, you may find that there are a couple of jumper that bypass the audio amplifier. Likewise, there should be some line inputs somewhere. (I suppose a motherboard with integrated audio might not have these option. The microphones that they use with most PC's are of such low quality that they're suitable only for speech, but the codecs are capable of much more. A look at the manual, if there is one, might shed light. My setup, which I've used for years for transcribing my old vinyls and open reel tapes to CD, has separate outs and ins for all these purposes, but I've heard of folks having to put attenuators on the microphone inputs. The tape outputs from your stereo should do fine. I normally use the TAPE-2 in and out jacks on my stereo for transcription purposes, hooking them to line in and line out at the PC. What troubles me is that there seems to be no software that really works to control shot noise. Various packages introduce all forms of distrortion, but I've never seen/heard one that improves anything. Sad, isn't it? If you find your system really doesn't support anything beyond just the speaker out and microphone in, you can probably get by with the microphone inputs, but need to put a couple of resistors in parallel with the speaker/headphone ouputs, and attempt, by whatever means are available, to set the outputs to a 200 mV p-p range by the choice of those resistors, taking your output from the junction between them. Impedance matching isn't terribly important, since the inputs at the PC are high-impedance, but the voltage levels have to be controlled to avoid clipping. Have you considered disabling the audio arrangement you have installed and replacing it, at least temporarily, with something over which you have more control? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 5:29 AM Subject: Re: Off Topic - stereo to PC question > At 12:12 AM 12/1/01 -0500, you wrote: > >what kind of audio outputs does your system have? > > Just speaker connections and headphone jack. > > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Dec 1 20:55:43 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011201072912.00adf850@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <3.0.2.32.20011201001259.018ec10c@obregon.multi.net.co> <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011201215543.019062fc@obregon.multi.net.co> At 07:29 AM 12/1/01 -0500, you wrote: >At 12:12 AM 12/1/01 -0500, you wrote: >>what kind of audio outputs does your system have? > >Just speaker connections and headphone jack. Assuming that your sound card has line level inputs, you can probably connect the headphone outputs directly to the soundcard, although I would prefer something like this, one for each channel 1K --------------------/\/\/\/\/\-----------> | head \ phone / 100 to output \ soundcard / line level | input -----------------------------------------> Set the volume output in your stereo system about 25% of the way and see if the signal is large enough that you can control it with the record level control of the soundcard so that you reach appropriate signal levels. The idea is to use the linear range of the amplifier fully to maximize S/N, but not higher than that because otherwise THD climbs up. Too bad that you don't have a line level output. Then, locate the loudest percussive sound in your tape, and set the recording level as high as possible but so that there is no clipping. Clipping is very easy to recognize for the trained ear; just play it back and see if it is not clipped. If you aren't sure about whether what you hear is clipped sound or something else, you'll need to record the excerpt several times and look at the waveform using a wave editor (I recommend Goldwave) for evidence of clipping. You'll soon learn to identify it. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 1 13:04:21 2001 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question : Message-ID: >From: Michael Maginnis >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: History of Computing exam question : >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:41:31 -0700 > > >> >>List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the >>reason for choosing each. Okay, I think I can do that, in (more or less) chronological order no less! 1: Xerox Alto Reason: Because, after all, where would the GUI have come from without this thing? 2: IBM 5100 Reason: To show that, just because it was IBM, & it was the frist intergrated computer (sans printer), the people will not always buy it. Also I think the $16,384 price tag may have had something to do with it, I don't know. 3 & 4: Altair 8800 & IMSAI 8080 (respectively) Reason: The first commercially available computers, & to illustrate that the clone wars did not start in the 80's, they started much earlier than that. 5. Apple I Reason: Pretty self explanitory. 6, 7, & 8. Apple ][, Commodore PET, TRS-80 Model I (respectively) Reason: After all, these were "The Big Three", weren't they? 9. Compucolor Reason: (Allegedly) The first computer to inexpensively offer color graphics. 10. CBM 4032 Reason: Commodore's most famous (infamous?) business computer. 11. Apple ][+ Reason: Finally, Apple's figuring out how to be a computer company! 12. TI-99/4 Reason: TI's first foray in the computer market, as if anyone cared. 13. Commodore VIC-20 Reason: "The friendly color computer that anyone can afford" --William Shatner. 14. TI-99/4A Reason: To show that it is not a good idea to hire a pitchman who sells Jell-o and (New) Coke. 15. Commodore 64 Reason: Requires no explanation. 16. GRiD Compass 1100 Reason: I would think that the first clamshell laptop should deserve a place in computer history! 17. Apple LISA Reason: Sometimes Apple can just way too ahead of themselves. 18. TRS-80 Model 100 Reason: When these things came out, who didn't own one? 19. Otrona Attache Reason: Wow! A small "luggable", how about that! 20. Apple Macintosh Reason: "On January 24th, Apple will introduce Macintosh. And you will see why 1984 won't be like *1984*" 21. Commodore Amiga Reason: And you thought Macintosh pioneered multimedia! 22. NeXT Cube Reason: Who would have thought a black cube for a CPU would look so cool? 23. Apple Macintosh Portable Reason: Portable? Riiiiiiight! 24. Atari Portfolio Reason: Now you know where your PDA came from. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3, Disto 512K RAM board. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy Model 200, PDD, CCR-82. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Titan graphics & MS-DOS board, Comrex HDD. "Scout": Otrona Attache. ____________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 1 13:51:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question : In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You really like micros, don't you... what about systems like the Sperry-Rand UNIVAC? It was one of the first computers you could just order. It wasn't one-of-a-kind like a lot of earlier machines. The Altair and the IMSAI weren't even close to being the first commercially available, computer. Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, David Vohs wrote: > Okay, I think I can do that, in (more or less) chronological order no less! > > 1: Xerox Alto > Reason: Because, after all, where would the GUI have come from without this > thing? > > 2: IBM 5100 > Reason: To show that, just because it was IBM, & it was the frist > intergrated computer (sans printer), the people will not always buy it. Also > I think the $16,384 price tag may have had something to do with it, I don't > know. > > 3 & 4: Altair 8800 & IMSAI 8080 (respectively) > Reason: The first commercially available computers, & to illustrate that the > clone wars did not start in the 80's, they started much earlier than that. > > 5. Apple I > Reason: Pretty self explanitory. > > 6, 7, & 8. Apple ][, Commodore PET, TRS-80 Model I (respectively) > Reason: After all, these were "The Big Three", weren't they? > > 9. Compucolor > Reason: (Allegedly) The first computer to inexpensively offer color > graphics. > > 10. CBM 4032 > Reason: Commodore's most famous (infamous?) business computer. > > 11. Apple ][+ > Reason: Finally, Apple's figuring out how to be a computer company! > > 12. TI-99/4 > Reason: TI's first foray in the computer market, as if anyone cared. > > 13. Commodore VIC-20 > Reason: "The friendly color computer that anyone can afford" --William > Shatner. > > 14. TI-99/4A > Reason: To show that it is not a good idea to hire a pitchman who sells > Jell-o and (New) Coke. > > 15. Commodore 64 > Reason: Requires no explanation. > > 16. GRiD Compass 1100 > Reason: I would think that the first clamshell laptop should deserve a > place in computer history! > > 17. Apple LISA > Reason: Sometimes Apple can just way too ahead of themselves. > > 18. TRS-80 Model 100 > Reason: When these things came out, who didn't own one? > > 19. Otrona Attache > Reason: Wow! A small "luggable", how about that! > > 20. Apple Macintosh > Reason: "On January 24th, Apple will introduce Macintosh. And you will see > why 1984 won't be like *1984*" > > 21. Commodore Amiga > Reason: And you thought Macintosh pioneered multimedia! > > 22. NeXT Cube > Reason: Who would have thought a black cube for a CPU would look so cool? > > 23. Apple Macintosh Portable > Reason: Portable? Riiiiiiight! > > 24. Atari Portfolio > Reason: Now you know where your PDA came from. > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3, Disto 512K RAM board. > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. > "Butterfly": Tandy Model 200, PDD, CCR-82. > "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Titan graphics & MS-DOS board, Comrex HDD. > "Scout": Otrona Attache. > ____________________________________________________________ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Dec 1 22:13:14 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question : In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011202150828.025793f0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 02:51 PM 1/12/2001 -0500, One Without Reason wrote: >You really like micros, don't you... what about systems like the >Sperry-Rand UNIVAC? It was one of the first computers you could just >order. It wasn't one-of-a-kind like a lot of earlier machines. The >Altair and the IMSAI weren't even close to being the first commercially >available, computer. Well to add one or more larger systems: 1) Ferranti Atlas 2) IBM 360 3) KDF-9 4) GE 635 Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Dec 1 02:08:00 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet In-Reply-To: M H Stein's message of "Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:43:39 -0500" References: <01C17A09.A06EE100@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200112010808.fB1880d33750@daemonweed.reanimators.org> M H Stein wrote: > Does anybody know anything about the HD interface bus Cromemco used > with their early IMI drives (7012 - 8" with transparent cover, 5007, > 5018 & 5021 5 1/2") and the WDI/WDI-II controllers? I'm just curious > if the same interface was used in any other systems (single 34 pin > header, 7 units max, differential servo clock supplied by drive, so > it doesn't look like SA1000). Yes, Corvus used these drives. I'd expect Onyx did too; the story is that the VC who funded IMI also funded Onyx and Corvus so that IMI would have customers. It's interesting to know that Cromemco used them too. I'm sitting here looking at a photocopy of a data sheet of sorts for the IMI 7710, and it does provide some description of the interface. 25 signals on a 34-line bus. I suspect it's somewhere between "more than I want to type" and "less than you need to know to use the drive", because I can't quite figure out how you would transfer a block of data to the drive from what's printed here. > Interesting aside: when Cromemco finally went the ST506 route with the > STDC controller, they made a replacement HD board available to convert the > IMI 5 1/2" drives to a standard ST506 interface. Neat! > Finally, I also have a Corvus S-100 board; looks like it might be a > host adapter for a disk drive of some sort. Only markings are > Corvus S-100, 8008 REV K, copyright 1980; 11 TTL chips & a 34 pin > header. Anybody know what it is and/or want it? Yes, that's the Corvus hard disk interface for S-100, p/n 8010-08008-00. I could be interested in it. -Frank McConnell From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 1 11:28:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet References: <01C17A09.A06EE100@mse-d03> <200112010808.fB1880d33750@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <004e01c17a8d$a16039e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I had a couple of IMI drives back in the '80's and find, from my doc's that they were, in fact, ST506 compatible. I wonder if the drives you're seeing in your brocheure are earlier than that. The 8" Quantum drives all provided a clock on the data cable, that could be used to recover data. I'm not exactly sure how this was intended to be used, but several controllers for 8" drives relied on it, not having a PLL on board. The Shugart drives apparently didn't provide this clock. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:08 AM Subject: Re: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet > M H Stein wrote: > > Does anybody know anything about the HD interface bus Cromemco used > > with their early IMI drives (7012 - 8" with transparent cover, 5007, > > 5018 & 5021 5 1/2") and the WDI/WDI-II controllers? I'm just curious > > if the same interface was used in any other systems (single 34 pin > > header, 7 units max, differential servo clock supplied by drive, so > > it doesn't look like SA1000). > > Yes, Corvus used these drives. I'd expect Onyx did too; the story is > that the VC who funded IMI also funded Onyx and Corvus so that IMI > would have customers. It's interesting to know that Cromemco used > them too. > > I'm sitting here looking at a photocopy of a data sheet of sorts for > the IMI 7710, and it does provide some description of the interface. > 25 signals on a 34-line bus. I suspect it's somewhere between "more > than I want to type" and "less than you need to know to use the > drive", because I can't quite figure out how you would transfer a > block of data to the drive from what's printed here. > > > Interesting aside: when Cromemco finally went the ST506 route with the > > STDC controller, they made a replacement HD board available to convert the > > IMI 5 1/2" drives to a standard ST506 interface. > > Neat! > > > Finally, I also have a Corvus S-100 board; looks like it might be a > > host adapter for a disk drive of some sort. Only markings are > > Corvus S-100, 8008 REV K, copyright 1980; 11 TTL chips & a 34 pin > > header. Anybody know what it is and/or want it? > > Yes, that's the Corvus hard disk interface for S-100, p/n > 8010-08008-00. I could be interested in it. > > -Frank McConnell > > From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Dec 1 13:48:55 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher"'s message of "Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:28:45 -0700" References: <01C17A09.A06EE100@mse-d03> <200112010808.fB1880d33750@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <004e01c17a8d$a16039e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200112011948.fB1Jmtr55940@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > I had a couple of IMI drives back in the '80's and find, from my > doc's that they were, in fact, ST506 compatible. I wonder if the > drives you're seeing in your brocheure are earlier than that. I believe they are. The photocopied brochure pages are stapled to photocopied pages from a 7710 disc drive specification manual, and those latter pages are dated 1/79 and 5/79. -Frank McConnell From mhstein at usa.net Sat Dec 1 19:17:54 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet Message-ID: <01C17AAA.360C76A0@mse-d03> Thanks for the interesting info, Frank. I thought that Corvus had used these drives because I've got Corvus ads from old Bytes and they certainly do look like these 7710's; not much else looks like these babies. But although I've seen a reference to ANSI X3T9, I gather that the interface was proprietary to IMI. Don't need the docs for the interface, but thanks for mentioning that you've got some; I've got a manual for the controller from the good old days when manuals actually told you something, as well as calibration notes for the drives, and am about to check out the drives before I get rid of them. I was just curious if the controllers are of any use for any other drives since I have more controllers than drives. If you want the Corvus board, send me a note off list & let me know where you are. mike -------------------Original Message---------------- Date: 01 Dec 2001 00:08:00 -0800 From: Frank McConnell Subject: Re: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet M H Stein wrote: > Does anybody know anything about the HD interface bus Cromemco used > with their early IMI drives Yes, Corvus used these drives. I'd expect Onyx did too; the story is that the VC who funded IMI also funded Onyx and Corvus so that IMI would have customers. It's interesting to know that Cromemco used them too. I'm sitting here looking at a photocopy of a data sheet of sorts for the IMI 7710, and it does provide some description of the interface. 25 signals on a 34-line bus. I suspect it's somewhere between "more than I want to type" and "less than you need to know to use the drive", because I can't quite figure out how you would transfer a block of data to the drive from what's printed here. > Finally, I also have a Corvus S-100 board; looks like it might be a > host adapter for a disk drive of some sort. Only markings are > Corvus S-100, 8008 REV K, copyright 1980; 11 TTL chips & a 34 pin > header. Anybody know what it is and/or want it? Yes, that's the Corvus hard disk interface for S-100, p/n 8010-08008-00. I could be interested in it. - -Frank McConnell From mhstein at usa.net Sat Dec 1 19:53:18 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet Message-ID: <01C17AAA.3A0ACD60@mse-d03> As far as I can tell, IMI originally used a proprietary interface but when IBM came into the game they switched over to ST506 and IMI drives were in fact put into some AT's; same HDA but a different PCB. I have various versions of the 5014/5018/5021drives and have in fact switched boards back & forth. And yes, the drive clock signals were used for data transfer, at least by Cromemco; once the appropriate sector was located, data was clocked into/out of a shift register by the SysClk signal from the drive. m -----------------Original Message---------------- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:28:45 -0700 From: "Richard Erlacher" Subject: Re: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet I had a couple of IMI drives back in the '80's and find, from my doc's that they were, in fact, ST506 compatible. I wonder if the drives you're seeing in your brocheure are earlier than that. The 8" Quantum drives all provided a clock on the data cable, that could be used to recover data. I'm not exactly sure how this was intended to be used, but several controllers for 8" drives relied on it, not having a PLL on board. The Shugart drives apparently didn't provide this clock. Dick From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Dec 1 01:40:06 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: Traf-o-data Message-ID: In a message dated 11/30/01 10:55:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, celt@chisp.net writes: > Traf-O-Data automatic traffic measuring device - Microsoft's first piece > of hardware > I would like to know more about this? What, When, Why, What happened to it? Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011201/7cd4442c/attachment.html From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Dec 1 10:41:42 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: Traf-o-data In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011201113055.00b22a38@mail.wincom.net> At 02:40 AM 12/1/2001 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/30/01 10:55:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, >celt@chisp.net writes: > > >>Traf-O-Data automatic traffic measuring device - Microsoft's first piece >>of hardware > > >I would like to know more about this? What, When, Why, What happened to it? > >Paxton >Astoria, OR From "Fire in the Valley, " page 31,32. Bill Gates got hold of an 8008, and with Paul Allen and Paul Gilbert, constructed a machine to generate traffic flow statistics using data collected by a sensor installed in a rubber tube strung across a highway. Software written by Allen and Gates. It took a year to get it working, and in 1972 they formed a company called Traf-O-Data. Unfortunately the device had to compete with a free service offered by the State of Washington, so was not very well received. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario, Canada, N8Y3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 1 12:33:21 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: Traf-o-data References: Message-ID: <002c01c17a96$a803f800$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Subject: Re: Traf-o-data In a message dated 11/30/01 10:55:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, celt@chisp.net writes: Traf-O-Data automatic traffic measuring device - Microsoft's first piece of hardware I would like to know more about this? What, When, Why, What happened to it? > Mentioned in several of Bill Gates' biographies, the Traf-O-Data > was a hand built, single purpose computer controlled traffic counter. > Details are sketchy - but I think I remember reading that it was > based on an Intel 8008 "single chip micro" which is something in itself > since it need a lot of support chips, strange voltages, clocks, memory etc. > Gate's intent was to sell it to municipal depts. to monitor and log traffic, > to/from roadside paper tape. Other accounts detail that it was only an interface > to read roadside punched paper tapes and process reports . The actual > hardware was rumoured to have been designed and built by a Boeing engineer, > on contract, and not by Bill as some sources state. > From the accounts I read, they were never successful in selling many units, > but they managed to make 20K$ on the work. > Gates himself wrote the software to run on a simulator Allen had written > to run on a PDP-10. The only significance of Traf-O-Data was that > the 8008 simulator was modified (greatly) to emulate an 8080 (on Harvard's > PDP-10s) and used to cobble together a small (<4K) BASIC interpreter from > public domain sources. The was demonstrated and sold to MITS for the > first Altair. That interpreter became the basis for most of Micro-soft's > (two words in those days) BASIC ROMS sold to many first generation > home microcomputer hardware companies such as Radio Shack, Commodore.. >timeframe - Traf-O-Data company founded 1972, became Micro Soft 1975 >why: Gates and Allen wanted their own software company >what happened to it? who know?I've not heard of any hardware that survived.. >cheers - heinz - Any additional info, corrections - please post! > ms-religious-fanatic arguments, Bill worhshippers -->> /dev/null :O From celt at chisp.net Sat Dec 1 22:47:58 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: Traf-o-data References: Message-ID: <3C09B27E.8030705@chisp.net> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/30/01 10:55:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, > celt@chisp.net writes: > > > Traf-O-Data automatic traffic measuring device - Microsoft's first > piece > of hardware > > > > I would like to know more about this? What, When, Why, What happened to it? > > Paxton > Astoria, OR More info on Traf-O-Data: http://bobrich.lexitech.com/gates/gates5.htm http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Gates.Mirick.html I guess it should be Micr-O-Soft, as well... Mike From mcruse at acm.org Sat Dec 1 02:20:14 2001 From: mcruse at acm.org (Mike Cruse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions References: <003701c17555$7ad95d20$89ee9a8d@ajp166> <10111251057.ZM26482@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3C0892BE.9030805@acm.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > >In that case, I exercise my right to change my mind, and I think they >probably are the right way round. The air blown out of the PSU isn't very >warm, but it will presumably be warmer when I put lots of cards in and give >it more of a load. > The fans are blowing the right way. The filter was usually mount over the vents on the right side of the case if installed. That way when the filter foam finally hydrolized it got sucked into the case, just like RK05 drives... Don't worry, once you get a few cards in the machine you'll get plenty of heat pumping out the left side. Mike From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 1 03:36:29 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: Mike Cruse "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Dec 1, 0:20) References: <003701c17555$7ad95d20$89ee9a8d@ajp166> <10111251057.ZM26482@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3C0892BE.9030805@acm.org> Message-ID: <10112010936.ZM2888@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 0:20, Mike Cruse wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > >In that case, I exercise my right to change my mind, and I think they > >probably are the right way round. The air blown out of the PSU isn't very > >warm, but it will presumably be warmer when I put lots of cards in and give > >it more of a load. > > > The fans are blowing the right way. The filter was usually mount over > the vents on > the right side of the case if installed. That way when the filter foam > finally hydrolized > it got sucked into the case, just like RK05 drives... And most other mchines. Of course :-) > Don't worry, once you get a few cards in the machine you'll get plenty > of heat pumping out the left side. Got any spares so I can check? ;-) I'm looking for a TD8-E and an RX8-E in particular... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Dec 1 11:27:55 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10112010936.ZM2888@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200112011727.LAA19393@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Got any spares so I can check? ;-) I'm looking for a TD8-E and an RX8-E > in particular... > I just bought some, got any 8/E stuff to trade? -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From mcruse at acm.org Sat Dec 1 02:25:10 2001 From: mcruse at acm.org (Mike Cruse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions References: Message-ID: <3C0893E6.4090906@acm.org> Tony Duell wrote: > >Not that I think a multi-coloured panel is a particularly good idea in >general. DEC did use groups of 3 red and 3 orange LEDs (splitting the >data/address into octal digits) on some machines and that seems to work >quite well. > >-tony > For one of my 8/e machines I did the led conversion since I didn't have any bulbs available. I didn't know where to get them either. Anyway, I used different colors for the EMA, MEMORY ADDRESS, AC/STATUS... and RUN indicators. I can always switch them back but it does look kind of cool in amber, red, green and blue. Mike From mcruse at acm.org Sat Dec 1 02:30:34 2001 From: mcruse at acm.org (Mike Cruse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case References: <009d01c17169$39ca5270$71ee9a8d@ajp166> <10111200819.ZM15851@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3C08952A.8050508@acm.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: >On Nov 19, 21:04, ajp166 wrote: > >>I don't remember that foam as being conductive. Most conductive foams >>tend to shred, those bits are not kind to the electronics. >> > >Agreed:-) The brown stuff isn't much nicer after 15-30 years. I suspect >someone before me had replaced foam that lost its resilience, and thought >conductive foam would be better in some way. > >>From: Pete Turnbull >> >>>I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to >>> >remove > >>>the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. >>>I'm not sure what best to replace it with >>> > >Thanmks to everyone who replied. I'll just use ordinary high-density foam. > It's much cheaper than a couple of square feet of good quality conductive >foam, which would be a bit thin anyway. > > Good choice. Conductive foam (the black stuff at least) will also loose it's integrity over time and crumble. Especially when subjected to repetitive mechanical stress. It is not designed to last. Mike From mhstein at usa.net Sat Dec 1 00:43:39 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: HD Controllers - S-100 & Corvus Omninet Message-ID: <01C17A09.A06EE100@mse-d03> At the risk of raising the blood pressure of the purists on this list, I have a controller board out of a Corvus Omninet Drive (marked 8012-10970, 8010-?492-01 REV A. which I scrapped many years ago to use the cabinet and drive to back up my Cromemcos. Sorry to confess, I also pulled a few small parts off the board over the years, however, most of it is still complete and it could either be put back together if one had another one to compare, or perhaps someone could use the major chips on it (WD1010, Corvus 8115-03023 REV B, etc.) Also have a few old AT controllers with WD2010B's on them, not socketed though. Any interest? 2nd question: Does anybody know anything about the HD interface bus Cromemco used with their early IMI drives (7012 - 8" with transparent cover, 5007, 5018 & 5021 5 1/2") and the WDI/WDI-II controllers? I'm just curious if the same interface was used in any other systems (single 34 pin header, 7 units max, differential servo clock supplied by drive, so it doesn't look like SA1000). Interesting aside: when Cromemco finally went the ST506 route with the STDC controller, they made a replacement HD board available to convert the IMI 5 1/2" drives to a standard ST506 interface. Finally, I also have a Corvus S-100 board; looks like it might be a host adapter for a disk drive of some sort. Only markings are Corvus S-100, 8008 REV K, copyright 1980; 11 TTL chips & a 34 pin header. Anybody know what it is and/or want it? m From Richard.Sandwell at roebry.co.uk Sat Dec 1 03:03:03 2001 From: Richard.Sandwell at roebry.co.uk (Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: Omninet and Ethernet Message-ID: I have a 4 workstation generic Apricot network using MS-NET over Omninet.....and I'd like to tie it to my ethernet network. How would you go about this? The physical side - I'm thinking about having an old IBM PS/2 model 50 as a link between the two environments - IIRC there was an MCA omninet card and I'm certain I've got an ethernet card somewhere. What would anyone suggest I do about the software side? MS-Net is netbios - net share \\xxxxx\yyy and so on, and I dimly recall there being an IBM PC Lan program bridge or something, but there my memory fails me..... Ideas? //Rich From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 1 05:33:54 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: <000001c17a1c$a1b32630$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <200112011133.fB1BXsD00610@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 30 Nov, Fred deBros wrote: > OK, so there are type 4 (UV plus vis light) IR not UV. > Type 4 mice require a different optical pad than type 5. I found that the type of pad does not matter. > There is a ps file that prints the type 4 mouse pad grid on paper. > Do I have to laminate that print, or print it on a transparency and glue > that onto an aluminum foil or print it onto a reflective foil? Paper works, but I found that a reflective background works better. I printed it on a A4 transparency, puted aluminum foil on the printed side, puted an other transparency on top of the foil and and fixated this with sticky tape at the edges. Worked well for years. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 1 06:39:24 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: Re: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) References: <000001c17a1c$a1b32630$6501a8c0@fred> <200112011133.fB1BXsD00610@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15368.53116.955248.2338@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 1, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > Type 4 mice require a different optical pad than type 5. > I found that the type of pad does not matter. Type 3 definitely requires a different pad from type 4...got frustrated by this many, many times while outfitting the early Digex offices with diskless Sun3/50, 3/60, & 3/140 machines as X terminals using Xkernel. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 1 11:38:00 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: <15368.53116.955248.2338@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200112011738.fB1Hc1q00885@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 1 Dec, Dave McGuire wrote: > Type 3 definitely requires a different pad from type 4... Then you have other type 3 rodents than I. Mine are identical to the type 4 mice, only with an other connector. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 1 16:47:03 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: Re: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) References: <15368.53116.955248.2338@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200112011738.fB1Hc1q00885@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15369.24039.255250.646501@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 1, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > Type 3 definitely requires a different pad from type 4... > Then you have other type 3 rodents than I. Mine are identical to the > type 4 mice, only with an other connector. It's certainly possible that I'm thinking of the Type 2...this was a long time ago and I was running a couple of Sun2-120 boxes at the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Sat Dec 1 09:06:37 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: <000001c17a1c$a1b32630$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Fred deBros wrote: > Type 4 mice are tricky because they have to be adjusted to the grid > (parallel vs perpendicular) in order to work correctly. > There is a ps file that prints the type 4 mouse pad grid on paper. > Do I have to laminate that print, or print it on a transparency and glue > that onto an aluminum foil or print it onto a reflective foil? > > Because my printed pad on plain paper don't work with type 4 mice. > > Sniff. I wonder why I find so many optical mice in the garbage here. > > Any advice? I was given a sparcstation SLC with an optical mouse, no pad tho. After somet hinking, I tried aluminium foil which I made dimples in, which sorta worked. Then I had a bright idea. I got a piece of hardboard (normally used for backing cheap cupboard units), which has a textured back due to the manufacturing process. I then got a piece of foil and taped it over a pad shaped sqaure of hardboard, then pressed it against some soft foam, so the patter was imprinted on the foil. This works passably as a stop-gap solution until you can get something better :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From walgen at e-Spirit.de Sat Dec 1 08:54:10 2001 From: walgen at e-Spirit.de (Walgenbach, Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: Atari 4160STE ?! Message-ID: <81BDC19FEA82D311A83900A024F2457F2A7B12@osiris.e-spirit.de> Hi, I just got an Atari 4160STE (case only) - does anyone know details about the history of this machine? Some sources say that it was a developer version of the Atari 1040STE ... http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=272 BTW: Is there a complete list of all Atari 16Bit computers that were sold? As far as I kown at least these models were sold - because I own them :) I own: Atari 260 ST Atari 520 ST Atari 520 STM (boxed) Atari 520+ ST Atari 520 STFM Atari 1040 STF Atari 1040 STFM Atari Mega ST-1 Atari Mega ST-2 Atari 520 STE Atari 1040 STE Atari MEGA STE Atari Falcon 030 Atari ATW 800 Atari ST Book I know but don't own: Atari Stacy Atari TT Atari Mega ST-4 Stefan. www.HomeComputer.de From optimus at canit.se Sat Dec 1 17:09:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: Atari 4160STE ?! In-Reply-To: <81BDC19FEA82D311A83900A024F2457F2A7B12@osiris.e-spirit.de> Message-ID: <584.736T200T93617optimus@canit.se> Walgenbach, Stefan skrev: >I just got an Atari 4160STE (case only) - does anyone know >details about the history of this machine? Some sources say >that it was a developer version of the Atari 1040STE ... >http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=272 I believe some makers of memory upgrades made replacement model stickers to match the upgrade. The STE uses SIMMs, though, but it could have been made by some dealer in any case. >Atari 520+ ST What's that? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A liberal is someone too poor to be conservative, and too rich to be a communist. From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 1 10:08:42 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <000c01c179cd$ea077b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > Well for one the PDP-6 was a 36 bit machine that predated the PDP10. > The PDP-7 was an 18bitter, and unix was devoped on it because they had > one and not many other good reasons. So what? The fact that UNIX was developed on it is in itself a historic fact. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 1 11:09:14 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011130185302.007e1e90@costanzo.net> Message-ID: Is this supposed to be which ones were most historically significant, or WHICH ONES YOU LIKE?? Imagine a world history that leaves out all mention of Hitler. From hansp at aconit.org Sat Dec 1 11:50:57 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: Message-ID: <3C091881.1080807@aconit.org> Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Is this supposed to be which ones were most historically significant, or > WHICH ONES YOU LIKE?? As the examiner, I say it is the former. Likes and disklikes don't enter into it. > Imagine a world history that leaves out all mention of Hitler. Nice point -- hbp From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 1 13:22:59 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <3C091881.1080807@aconit.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Is this supposed to be which ones were most historically significant, or > > WHICH ONES YOU LIKE?? > As the examiner, I say it is the former. Likes and disklikes don't enter into it. > > Imagine a world history that leaves out all mention of Hitler. > > Nice point Leaving Hitler out of a world history would be like leaving IBM PC (5150) out of a list of significant computers. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 1 13:01:34 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <009901c17a9a$b098a2f0$67ec9a8d@ajp166> From: One Without Reason > >> Well for one the PDP-6 was a 36 bit machine that predated the PDP10. >> The PDP-7 was an 18bitter, and unix was devoped on it because they had >> one and not many other good reasons. > >So what? The fact that UNIX was developed on it is in itself a historic >fact. The fact that unix was not developed on 36 bit. And the 18bit machines were somewhat different from the 36bitters. Oh, and while they were both DEC K&R happed to have access to the PDP-7. Allison From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 1 13:47:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <009901c17a9a$b098a2f0$67ec9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > >> Well for one the PDP-6 was a 36 bit machine that predated the PDP10. > >> The PDP-7 was an 18bitter, and unix was devoped on it because they had > >> one and not many other good reasons. > > > >So what? The fact that UNIX was developed on it is in itself a historic > >fact. > > The fact that unix was not developed on 36 bit. And the 18bit machines > were somewhat different from the 36bitters. Oh, and while they were both > DEC K&R happed to have access to the PDP-7. But "rare" and "interesting" doesn't necessarily mean "historic". Peace... Sridhar From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 1 18:13:50 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <14b.500b598.293acc3e@aol.com> 1) 1890 Hollerith Tabulation System. Mechanical machine to sort US census data. Hollerith's Tabulating Machine Company, TMC, was later to merge with Computing-Tabulating-Recording Co, later to become IBM (1914) 2) 1937-41 Z1 and Z3 built by Konrad Zuse and Helmut Schreyer Z1 first binary machine. Z3 first floating point machine (used 2600 relays). Speed was 5Hz ! 3) 1937 Automatic Sequence Controlled Calculator (ASCC) or Harvard Mk I Part vacuum tube - part relay. Hard wired coding. Code written by Grace Hopper. According to Ms Hopper - moths would fly in through the open windows at night and get stuck in the relays. This would render the machine unless and it would have to be "de-bugged". 4) 1940 ? Enigma - Electromechanical state machine. Colossus wouldn't have been built without it. 5) 1943 Colossus - Vacuum tube code craker. Not a general purpose machine, built solely to solve Enigma ciphers. Hard wired coding and paper tape. 1500 valves. 6) 1944 ENIAC - First general purpose machine. Hard wired and paper tape program, worked in decimal. Program storage added after development of Manchester Mk I and EDSAC. 7) 1946 Manchester Mark I - First stored program computer. The Williams tube (CRT) was used for program storage. Commercial version was the Ferranti Mk I Followed by EDSAC in 1949. 8) 1951 UNIVAC - first successful commercial computer. One of the first machines to use compiled software, another of Grace Hopper's ideas. 9) 1951 LEO I (Lyons Electronic Office) J. Lyons & Company Ltd First British mainframe. Lyons bought by English Electric Company later to become ICL and the end of the British computer industry. 10) 1956 MIT Lincoln Labs TX-0 - First solid state computer 11) 1964 CDC's 6600 - Seymour Cray's first super computer, 3 MIPS 12) 1965 DEC PDP8 - The first true minicomputer 13) 1968/9 The Apollo guidance computer - Helped get man to the moon. 14) 1971 Intel 4004 - First commercially available microprocessor 15) 1972 HP 35 - Perhaps the first scientific pocket calculator ? (On the list 'cos I like HP stuff) 16) 1974 Xerox Alto - The mouse makes it's first appearence as well as windows, menus and icons. Ground breaking stuff. 17) 1975 MITS Altair 8800. First popular personal computer . 8080 based, 256 bytes of memory, no keyboard or display. Paul Allen and Bill Gates wrote a BASIC interpreter for it and the Altairs bus structure evolved into the S-100 bus. 18) 1976/7 Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak produced the Apple I followed by Apple II. First popular 6502 personal computer. Atari and Commodore followed. 19) 1976 CRAY 1 - First real supercomputer ? 166 MIPS 20) 1978 DEC VAX11/780 - 4Gbyte virtual memory ! 21) 1981 The IBM PC - A veil of darkness falls Honourable mention Arcade games ought to get a mention, they created an entire industry. Atari for Asteroids, Midway for space invaders. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011201/92cb1b33/attachment.html From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Dec 1 19:36:36 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: <14b.500b598.293acc3e@aol.com> Message-ID: <030d01c17ad1$c96be710$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:43 AM Subject: Re: History of Computing exam question > 4) 1940 ? > Enigma - Electromechanical state machine. Colossus wouldn't have > been built without it. Hmmm, possibly true, though not for the reason you state. The success against Enigma using 'cracking' machines led to the idea of building Colussus to crack the "Fish" machines. > 5) 1943 > Colossus - Vacuum tube code craker. Not a general purpose machine, > built solely to solve Enigma ciphers. Hard wired coding and paper tape. > 1500 valves. Actually it was built to crack the Geheimschrieber ("Secret Writer") ciphers, several versions of which existed, and were referred to by the Brits as the "Fish" machines. I think one specific machine was known to the Brits as "Tunny" and another as "Salmon". They were used by The German High Command to distribute orders from the Government (read Hitler) to the various arms and embassies and were a radically different type of ciphering process to the simpler Enigma system. IIRC it used an additive numerical encryption of some kind. The Enigma code was dealt with by the Bombes, an Alan Turing altered variant of the original Bombes used by the Poles to crack the early Enigmas in the late 1930's, prior to WW2. Like the Enigmas they were used against, the Bombes were electromechanical. Bletchley Park were well into much Enigma traffic, (except for the Reichsmarine, who were much more careful in their useage habits) long before 1943. > 13) 1968/9 > The Apollo guidance computer - Helped get man to the moon. Are we talking about the ones on the ground or the ones in the spacecraft? If the spacecraft, was the one in the LEM the same machine? Anyone got any info on it? Any examples survive? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 1 18:02:02 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: <14b.500b598.293acc3e@aol.com> <030d01c17ad1$c96be710$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <3C096F7A.35D965F0@jetnet.ab.ca> Geoff Roberts wrote: > > 13) 1968/9 > > The Apollo guidance computer - Helped get man to the moon. > > Are we talking about the ones on the ground or the ones in the spacecraft? > If the spacecraft, was the one in the LEM the same machine? Anyone got any > info on it? Any examples survive? The one in the command module. I suspect bits and pieces have survived as part of the apollo museum pieces. There is a good bit of information on the web about this machine because of the Apollo 1 electrical fire. The movie Apollo 13 has a nice mock up of it. What about the PDP-1 and vector display ... the first real video game! PS. As a reminder http://members.aol.com/swtpc6800/FDC2/FDC_Index.htm is a new floppy disc controller for the Southwest Technical Products Corp. 6800 and 6809 computers. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 1 20:23:42 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <25.1f29674c.293aeaae@aol.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Subject: Re: History of Computing exam question >> 4) 1940 ? >> Enigma - Electromechanical state machine. Colossus wouldn't have >> been built without it. > Hmmm, possibly true, though not for the reason you state. The success > against Enigma using 'cracking' machines led to the idea of building > Colussus to crack the "Fish" machines. I'd forgotten about the "fish" cyphers "Tunny" and "Salmon". Thanks for the reminder. Your're right about the Bombes. The Poles were way ahead of anyone else and didn't get very much recognition for their work. >> 13) 1968/9 >> The Apollo guidance computer - Helped get man to the moon. > Are we talking about the ones on the ground or the ones in the spacecraft? > If the spacecraft, was the one in the LEM the same machine? Anyone got any > info on it? Any examples survive? I meant the ones in the spacecraft. They were major landmarks in terms of reliability both in terms of hardware and software. They were all digital whereas most guidance computers from that era were analogue. As for info on these machines, I just did a search, and google threw up 1800 matches ! Try the NASA website http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/computers/Part1.html I don't expect one will ever appear on ebay but there must be a few left in various museums. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011201/b9ab8ba6/attachment.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 1 21:03:42 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <002101c17ade$52876d60$67ec9a8d@ajp166> From: Geoff Roberts >were electromechanical. Bletchley Park were well into much Enigma traffic, >(except for the Reichsmarine, who were much more careful in their useage >habits) long before 1943. The enigma used by the Reichsmarine was different and had an additional code wheel as well. >> 13) 1968/9 >> The Apollo guidance computer - Helped get man to the moon. > >Are we talking about the ones on the ground or the ones in the spacecraft? >If the spacecraft, was the one in the LEM the same machine? Anyone got any >info on it? Any examples survive? The ground, CM and LM all had computers none the same. LM and CM copies still exist as part of the ground simulators and ground test vehicles. I'd love to see more detail on the CM or LM systems. Allison From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 1 10:28:07 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:31 2005 Subject: DEC Infoserver 150 Message-ID: Hi folks. I got a few questions. First, is there anything that makes this box different from a plain-vanilla VAXserver 3100? Second, does anyone have the software for this bad boy? Third, will the software run on a regular VAXserver 3100? Fourth, what does the software consist of? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 1 10:52:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: DEC Infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: DEC Infoserver 150 (One Without Reason) References: Message-ID: <15369.2753.255799.949924@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 1, One Without Reason wrote: > Hi folks. I got a few questions. First, is there anything that makes > this box different from a plain-vanilla VAXserver 3100? Second, does > anyone have the software for this bad boy? Third, will the software run > on a regular VAXserver 3100? Fourth, what does the software consist of? I've got the software, Sridhar...I will hook you up as soon as I get it unpacked. Dunno about the VS3100/IS150 comparison offhand, but I know they're very similar...might be the same board with different ROMs or something. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dittman at dittman.net Sat Dec 1 11:36:23 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: DEC Infoserver 150 In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Dec 01, 2001 11:28:07 AM Message-ID: <200112011736.fB1HaNL23949@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Hi folks. I got a few questions. First, is there anything that makes > this box different from a plain-vanilla VAXserver 3100? Second, does > anyone have the software for this bad boy? Third, will the software run > on a regular VAXserver 3100? Fourth, what does the software consist of? I can provide the software, but the InfoServer 150 is different from a VAXserver 3100. I've tried to swap the ROMs, but that didn't work. The InfoServer 100 is the same as a VAXserver 3100 (but I can't remember which model) with different ROMs. If you want to try, I can provide Infoserver 100 ROM images. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From oliv555 at arrl.net Sat Dec 1 10:57:13 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: FS: HiNote Message-ID: <3C090BE9.CEC4957B@arrl.net> Thought I'd offer up my ultraII before eBaying it. Just upgraded to a HiNote 233. Digital HiNote UltraII model LTS5150 Win98, 150mhz cpu 32mb ram 1.4gb hard drive floppy drive dock 6xCD mobilemedia dock i/o expansion dock ac adapter NOTE: battery does not hold charge $85, shipping included No docs or software other than the loaded os. The only flaw im aware of, about 1 of every 10 bootups it stops at the end. Always fixed with a reboot. Don't recall this happening when I was running w95. see at: http://www.hal-pc.org/~nicko/hinote.jpg -nick From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Dec 1 14:14:18 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: FS: HiNote In-Reply-To: <3C090BE9.CEC4957B@arrl.net> Message-ID: On 01-Dec-2001 no wrote: > $85, shipping included What would shipping to southern Qu?bec be? > No docs or software other than the loaded os. The only flaw im aware > of, about 1 of every 10 bootups it stops at the end. Always fixed with > a reboot. Don't recall this happening when I was running w95. Did you install the v2.1 BIOS? > see at: > http://www.hal-pc.org/~nicko/hinote.jpg Wow. Getting info on this computer is non-easy. Google returned pages in japanese or memory upgrades. Finaly I found http://amun.compaq.com.au/customers/products/hinote/u2.htm Compaq's burying of this data must be a huge pain for you folks needing docs for all your DEC gear. -Philip From oliv555 at arrl.net Sat Dec 1 14:58:53 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: FS: HiNote References: Message-ID: <3C09448D.745E2B03@arrl.net> gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > > On 01-Dec-2001 no wrote: > > $85, shipping included > What would shipping to southern Qu?bec be? > > > No docs or software other than the loaded os. The only flaw im aware > > of, about 1 of every 10 bootups it stops at the end. Always fixed with > > a reboot. Don't recall this happening when I was running w95. > > Did you install the v2.1 BIOS? > > > see at: > > http://www.hal-pc.org/~nicko/hinote.jpg > > Wow. Getting info on this computer is non-easy. Google returned pages in > japanese or memory upgrades. Finaly I found > http://amun.compaq.com.au/customers/products/hinote/u2.htm > > Compaq's burying of this data must be a huge pain for you folks needing > docs for all your DEC gear. > > -Philip There is also: http://www4.support.compaq.com/support_database/index/epid73.htm and i made it a point to download everything there. No telling how much longer Compaq will keep this info available. -nick From hansp at aconit.org Sat Dec 1 11:59:23 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: PDP-9 lives Message-ID: <3C091A7B.7090700@aconit.org> I am very happy to be able to announce that the PDP-9 that we have been working on for quite some time finally began talking to the world again today. We had gotten memory and processor operational, then had to fix a memory fault which developed. TTY I/O posed some problems but finally today it spoke and we could reply. We ran the only two test routines we have on paper tape: the extended memory test and the TTY test. There appears to be some issue with the TTY since part 1 test halts after a while with PC=22, no mention of that in the test writeup! TTY test part 2 runs without error. Anyways, we plan on completeing checkout on this system, fix a couple of burnt our indicator bulbs and get the punch up before starting on the second system we have. That one has a dual dectapes, then we can read the 100 or so tapes trhat came with the system, and run some real software ;-) I'd be interested in knowing the status of other pdp-9's. Regards -- hbp for ACONIT, Grenoble France From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 1 12:58:57 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: PDP-9 lives In-Reply-To: <3C091A7B.7090700@aconit.org> Message-ID: >second system we have. That one has a dual dectapes, then we can read >the 100 or so tapes trhat came with the system, and run some real >software ;-) Have you made images of the tapes yet? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hansp at aconit.org Sat Dec 1 13:36:45 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: PDP-9 lives References: Message-ID: <3C09314D.5070102@aconit.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>second system we have. That one has a dual dectapes, then we can read >>the 100 or so tapes trhat came with the system, and run some real >>software ;-) >> > > Have you made images of the tapes yet? No, we have no means of reading them til we get up the second PDP9 -- hbp From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 1 13:40:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 30, 1 09:07:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 840 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011201/1403421b/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Dec 1 13:42:41 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips In-Reply-To: Don Maslin's message of "Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:07:50 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200112011942.fB1Jgft55925@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Don Maslin wrote: > Okay, starting at top-left hand and reading horizontally, they are as > follow: > > HD74LS112P HD74LS11P HD74LS153P DM74LS163AN > SN74SO4N SN74LS393N SN74LS174 SN74LS163AN > SN74LS174N HD74LS86P HD74LS163P > SN7433N SN74LS174N HD74LS273P > HD74LS14P HD74LS367AP HD74LS194AP HD74LS374P > SN74LS133N HD74LS32P HD74LS194AP HD74LS374P Hmm, mine looks like this. * marks what I take to be significant differences. (U5) HD74LS112P (U11) HD74LS11P (U17) HD74LS153P (U23) HD74LS125AP * (U4) 74S404PC (U10) SN74LS393N (U16) SN74LS174N (U22) SN74LS163AN (U3) UM8326 * (U9) SN74LS174N (U15) HD74LS86P (U21) DM74LS163AN (U8) SN7433N (U14) SN74LS174N (U20) HD74LS273P (U2) HD74LS14P (U7) HD74LS367AP (U13) HD74LS194AP (U19) HD74LS374P (U1) SN74LS133N (U6) HD74LS32P (U12) HD74LS194AP (U18) HD74LS374P -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 1 13:54:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips In-Reply-To: <200112011942.fB1Jgft55925@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Dec 1, 1 11:42:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011201/05a2c169/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 1 15:23:59 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: S/09 update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to Michael Holley and his sending me a new S-BUG ROM, my SWTPc S/09 is now booting Flex09 off of a 5-1/4" disk using his DC5 floppy controller. The old S-BUG ROM was part of the trio of ROMs provided for support of OS-9 and would not recognize either disk system, though both are supposedly based on the same version. I'm still working on the 8" disk system but thanks to a few other individuals, I have two sets of drives as well as Flex on 8" diskette. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Dec 1 18:01:17 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:54:54 +0000 (GMT)" References: Message-ID: <200112020001.fB201HM63179@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > U23 is still a TTL type (a 3-state buffer, not a counter, now), so data > on it is trivial to find. Yes, it was the difference in number that suggested a difference in function and that is why I thought I should bring attention to it. Not being a hardware guy, I don't have that (number, function) map cached in my brain. > I don't recognise U3, though. I guess it was made by UMC. How many pins > does it have? Eight. mark_k (who started this thread) told me it is a data separator. -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 1 18:40:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips In-Reply-To: <200112020001.fB201HM63179@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Dec 1, 1 04:01:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1480 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/074028bd/attachment.ksh From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Sat Dec 1 19:41:05 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Need "PC Mouse" driver for PCjr .. Message-ID: <3C0986B1.4090905@magnaspeed.net> Chris (mythtech@mac.com) spake: >>The mouse looks to be a slightly >>modified version of the "PC Mouse". The neat thing is that it is an >>optical mouse. [:-)] >I had an optical mouse way back when with my Mac Plus... I bought it as >a replacement for a broken mouse. I think it was made by A+ >At the time, I hated it, you needed a special mouse pad for it to work, >and it wasn't as accurate as the Mac Plus mouse, which made it even >harder to draw. >Just one of those things that I found interesting now that optical mice >are all the rage. Actually, I don't like the old style optical mice at all. I like this one because I think the older optical mice are hard to find. And on top of it, this was manufactured for use on the Jr - it wasn't just a run-of-the-mill PC mouse, it had two funny connectors specific to the Jr. (One for serial, and one to take power off the lightpen port.) All of that makes it special. My original machine had an MS bus mouse with a roller. Quite a different animal to use. The new optical mice are only vaguely related to the old ones. They don't need the pad or anything. I haven't used one, so I don't know if they are any more usable. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sat Dec 1 20:06:14 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' Message-ID: <001401c17ad5$f227c580$b2469280@y5f3q8> Anyone know what this is? It came from a 256K IBM XT, I thought at first it was a video card, (it was in the first slot), but it's got eight banks of nine 41256 ram DIPs on it. That sounds like a lot for a mono video card, doesn't it? Combo card? it's got a looong double-row of pin sockets along the bottom just above the ISA connector, and another single row up the whole edge between the external connectors (male 9 pin & female 25 pin) and the components. Maybe a daughter board? It's got one 6-position DIP switch at the top right (^vvvv^) and 3 three-pin jumpers along the top near the rams, (xx. xx. xx.) It's got a couple've big (1/8") holes on the board, lending credence to the daughterboard theory. All the chips are labeled in an intersting way-- u84 158 is --get this-- a 74LS158N. Don't ya wish everything was made like this? The computer it came out of looks pretty interesting, aside for a decade's worth of grime on it. A whopping 256K ram on the motherboard, 2x internal floppy, Adaptec HDD controller, external (!) ummm... 20? Meg drive in a case that _looks_ like an IBM part, but it doesn't actually _say_ IBM anywhere on it. Connects via IDC connectors on ribbon cable. Strange. Have to pop the case to plug it in. I hate to think just how much this setup must've cost new. ja ne Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 1 20:25:40 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <001401c17ad5$f227c580$b2469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > Anyone know what this is? It came from a 256K IBM XT, I thought at first it Just like the name implies. It is a RAM card. Yes, there are numerous daughter cards, and related models with permanently installed options, including floppy controller, laser printer controller, scanner (IX-12) controller, etc. From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 1 22:15:43 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer (was History of Computing exam question) Message-ID: <178.ad697.293b04ef@aol.com> Found a java applet that simulates the DSKY (display and keyboard) http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Cockpit/1556/dsky.html As MIT designed the AGC's I bet they have all of the documentation filed away somewhere. Found some interesting documents at http://hrst.mit.edu/hrs/apollo/public/ 1689.pdf - "Block II keyboard and dsiplay program (RETRED44)" Gives a Block II verb/noun list 1692.pdf - "AGC4 Memo #9 Block II Instructions" Block II Memory map and instruction set Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011201/790c7837/attachment.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Dec 1 23:00:53 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: IBM 3290 Plasma Display? Message-ID: <20011201230053.H20959@mrbill.net> Anybody know if these are usable in any way on a non-EBCDIC system, or where I could find specs? I see a couple really cheap on eBay, and would make a nice display for a serial console or something, if I could get them hooked in up the right manner. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 1 23:46:34 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <001401c17ad5$f227c580$b2469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > Anyone know what this is? It came from a 256K IBM XT, I thought at > first it was a video card, (it was in the first slot), but it's got > eight banks of nine 41256 ram DIPs on it. That sounds like a lot for > a mono video card, doesn't it? Combo card? it's got a looong > double-row of pin sockets along the bottom just above the ISA > connector, and another single row up the whole edge between the > external connectors (male 9 pin & female 25 pin) and the components. > Maybe a daughter board? It's got one 6-position DIP switch at the top > right (^vvvv^) and 3 three-pin jumpers along the top near the rams, > (xx. xx. xx.) It's got a couple've big (1/8") holes on the board, > lending credence to the daughterboard theory. All the chips are > labeled in an intersting way-- u84 158 is --get this-- a 74LS158N. > Don't ya wish everything was made like this? This sounds like a memory expansion+i/o card, with functions similar to the well known AST Six Pak Plus board. Does this card also have a 26 pin header somewhere for the second serial port? Does it have a battery for a real time clock? Make sure you write down the board's current dip switch settings if you decide to try changing anything... -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 1 18:48:00 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Traf-o-data References: <3C09B27E.8030705@chisp.net> Message-ID: <3C097A40.C6992B2E@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Maginnis wrote: > More info on Traf-O-Data: > I guess it should be Micr-O-Soft, as well... Now I know why Micr-O-Soft is buggy, both programs ignore the possible effects of a crash! in the system. :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From hansp at aconit.org Sun Dec 2 00:20:52 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer (was History of Computing exam question) References: <178.ad697.293b04ef@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C09C844.10905@aconit.org> CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Found a java applet that simulates the DSKY (display and keyboard) > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Cockpit/1556/dsky.html > > As MIT designed the AGC's I bet they have all of the documentation > filed away somewhere. Found some interesting documents at > http://hrst.mit.edu/hrs/apollo/public/ > > 1689.pdf - "Block II keyboard and dsiplay program (RETRED44)" > Gives a Block II verb/noun list > > 1692.pdf - "AGC4 Memo #9 Block II Instructions" > Block II Memory map and instruction set Sourceforge as a semiactive project to write a simulator don't know if the code cited above is pert of that or a different project. Ther eis also a book about the computers used int he Apollo era. From a previous (26 Sep 2001) post in cccmp by John Allan: > re Eldon Hall's book "Journey to the Moon" > BTW It is expensive but worth > it, even if you like Only computers or only spaceflight. (but both? > ) > Publisher: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics > Date: 1996 > ISBN: 1-56347-185-X > URLS: > http://www.aiaa.org/store/storeproductdetail.cfm?ID=358 available from Amazon but url is too long to post ;-) -- hbp From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Dec 2 02:47:11 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 02 Dec 2001 12:06:36 +1030." <030d01c17ad1$c96be710$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <200112020847.IAA25650@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au said: > Actually it was built to crack the Geheimschrieber ("Secret Writer") > ciphers, several versions of which > existed, and were referred to by the Brits as the "Fish" machines. I think > one specific machine was known to the Brits as "Tunny" and another as > "Salmon". "Tunny" were built by Siemens and "Sturgeon" (not Salmon..) were built by Lorenz. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 06:29:23 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <003901c17b2c$fa3c0720$ae469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 09:25 PM Subject: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > Anyone know what this is? It came from a 256K IBM XT, I thought at first it > > Just like the name implies. > > It is a RAM card. That would make the card in slot three the video card. I thought the third card was a combo IO card. It has a hayes 1200b modem in slot two. > > > Yes, there are numerous daughter cards, and related models with > permanently installed options, including floppy controller, laser > printer controller, scanner (IX-12) controller, etc. Any idea where I can get docs ? I'd imangine it'll need a driver to use the extra ram. Bob From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 06:32:47 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <003c01c17b2d$73fba160$ae469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 12:46 AM Subject: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > Anyone know what this is? It came from a 256K IBM XT, I thought at > > This sounds like a memory expansion+i/o card, with functions similar to > the well known AST Six Pak Plus board. Does this card also have a 26 pin > header somewhere for the second serial port? Does it have a battery for a > real time clock? Make sure you write down the board's current dip switch > settings if you decide to try changing anything... No headers other than the long ones for a daughter card. With a daughter card installed, it looks like it'll obstruct the next slot, so any extra ports might attach there. No battery or Dallas RTCs either. And don't worry-- I'm not changing any setting until _after_ I know what they do! > > -Toth Bob From walgen at e-Spirit.de Sun Dec 2 07:01:43 2001 From: walgen at e-Spirit.de (Walgenbach, Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: AW: Atari 4160STE ?! Message-ID: <81BDC19FEA82D311A83900A024F2457F2A7B1A@osiris.e-spirit.de> >>I just got an Atari 4160STE (case only) - does anyone know >>details about the history of this machine? Some sources say >>that it was a developer version of the Atari 1040STE ... >>http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=272 > >I believe some makers of memory upgrades made replacement model stickers > to match the upgrade. The STE uses SIMMs, though, but it could have been > made by some dealer in any case. That might be true - the lower case has a 1040STE label - first I thought it would not be the matching part but it defintely is. >>Atari 520+ ST > > What's that? an early version of the Atari 520ST factory upgraded to 1MB. It has a second 512kB RAM-Chip solderd on top of the regular RAM - very strange. That was my first Atari ST - it has an original Atari ST label with a small blue "+" ... Stefan From walgen at e-Spirit.de Sun Dec 2 07:54:05 2001 From: walgen at e-Spirit.de (Walgenbach, Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: AW: Atari 4160STE ?! Message-ID: <81BDC19FEA82D311A83900A024F2457F2A7B1D@osiris.e-spirit.de> Hi Curt, > While I don't have every single ST component listed, the ST section under > Atari Computers on my website should be of help to you: > www.atarimuseum.com Of course I checked your web-site first for infos about the 4160STe :) Perhaps some day you have the time to make a complete list of all Atari Computer Systems - I think there are quite a few unkown systems like the Atari ST520+, CLab Falcon MK I, II and X - there also was an Atari 520 STE - very strange ... > The 4160STe was going to be a 4mb Europe release of the ST but was > cut from production at the last minute, a few samples are floating > about, perhaps my machine is one of those. It has a 4160 label - although I am not completly sure if it is an original factory installed label or if it has been added later due to a memory upgrade. On the bottom site the label reads "1040STE" and has a large black sticker "4MB". The Serial Number is X2 040551 - never seen anything like "X2" on an Atari ST machine usualy the serial numbers start with "A1" ... if anyone is interested I have put some pictures on: http://www.homecomputer.de/tmp/4160_top.jpg http://www.homecomputer.de/tmp/4160_bottom.jpg Stefan. www.HomeComputer.de From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 2 11:17:28 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: PDP-9 lives In-Reply-To: Hans B Pufal "PDP-9 lives" (Dec 1, 18:59) References: <3C091A7B.7090700@aconit.org> Message-ID: <10112021717.ZM4360@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 18:59, Hans B Pufal wrote: > I am very happy to be able to announce that the PDP-9 that we have been > working on for quite some time finally began talking to the world again > today. Congratulations! That will be a very satisfying feeling after a lot of work. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ehenson at erols.com Sun Dec 2 11:22:35 2001 From: ehenson at erols.com (Emilia Henson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: jumper pin settings for ALR (non-LVD) backplane Message-ID: <001901c17b55$f06d0e00$838faccf@emilia> I acquired an ALR raid cage with a non-LVD backplane for which I cannot find the jumper pin settings. I have been able to identify it as a "quick hot swap cage 3 drive board" with the following markings: 12609700 Rev. G1/A. There is also a sticker that reads: ALR s.a. # 9705/A and KIT# 3134/KS. Any direction would be appreciated. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/24e845f8/attachment.html From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sun Dec 2 11:26:30 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: FLUKE? Message-ID: <003301c17b56$82529a60$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> I was at the other yard of the scrapper yesterday. He just had in a bunch of IBM 3174's and a few large Hitachi data storage units. Beside this was another large unit labelled FLUKE. It's too late for it but I did get the 8" floppy disks for it. It was raining so they got a bit wet. They are drying now. Does anyone know anything about FLUKE machines? Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 2 11:43:33 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <003901c17b2c$fa3c0720$ae469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > That would make the card in slot three the video card. I thought the third > card was a combo IO card. It has a hayes 1200b modem in slot two. Slots don't matter much on the IBM PC/XT except for slot 8, which was reserved for something (I can't remember exactly what right now.) Clone PC/XT boards usually did not restrict slot 8. There could be more than one I/O card in these old machines, since you could disable certain functions on the cards, and use more then one in the same machine. Since there is a modem in that machine, I would expect that there is only one enabled serial port on any I/O cards. > Any idea where I can get docs ? I'd imangine it'll need a driver to > use the extra ram. Good luck on the docs, sometimes they can be had by talking to the board's original manufacturer. Due to all the clones and cheap I/O cards that appeared around that time, finding the company may not even be possible now. If you know someone with an older MicroHouse cdrom, it might contain docs that could help you. Sometimes even docs for a similar card can be used, since there were many many clones and copies of boards. You won't need a driver for most PC/XT ram cards, since they just expand the base memory. If the I/O card has a real time clock, then you would need a special program to read the clock at boot time. -Toth From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 13:13:46 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > Any idea where I can get docs ? I'd imangine it'll need a driver to > > use the extra ram. > You won't need a driver for most PC/XT ram cards, since they just expand > the base memory. If the I/O card has a real time clock, then you would > need a special program to read the clock at boot time. For THIS one, you WILL need a "driver". This is NOT "normal" memory, it is a predecessor to LIM EMS paged real mode expanded memory (up to 16? M of RAM in a processor mode that can't comprehend more than 1M at a time!) There is no RTC, except on daughter cards. If you are NOT in a hurry, I can help. If you ARE in a hurry, then I'll sell you the whole pile (2 totes), and you can try to sort it out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 2 11:46:15 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <003c01c17b2d$73fba160$ae469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > > > Anyone know what this is? It came from a 256K IBM XT, I thought at > > > > > This sounds like a memory expansion+i/o card, with functions similar to > > the well known AST Six Pak Plus board. Does this card also have a 26 pin > > header somewhere for the second serial port? Does it have a battery for a > > real time clock? Make sure you write down the board's current dip switch > > settings if you decide to try changing anything... > > No headers other than the long ones for a daughter card. With a daughter > card installed, it looks like it'll obstruct the next slot, so any extra > ports might attach there. No battery or Dallas RTCs either. And don't > worry-- I'm not changing any setting until _after_ I know what they do! I've never seen an I/O card that used an daughter board for the second serial port, but I imagine there were companies who tried such a design. -Toth From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 13:15:19 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've never seen an I/O card that used an daughter board for the second > serial port, but I imagine there were companies who tried such a design. I have. (Maynard?) But this isn't. The DE9 on the card is NOT a serial port! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Dec 2 12:02:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259FD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Anyone know what this is? It came from a 256K IBM XT, I thought at first it > was a video card, (it was in the first slot), but it's got eight banks of > nine 41256 ram DIPs on it. That sounds like a lot for a mono video card, > doesn't it? Combo card? it's got a looong double-row of pin sockets along > the bottom just above the ISA connector, and another single row up the whole > edge between the external connectors (male 9 pin & female 25 pin) and the > components. Maybe a daughter board? It's got one 6-position DIP switch at > the top right (^vvvv^) and 3 three-pin jumpers along the top near the rams, > (xx. xx. xx.) It's got a couple've big (1/8") holes on the board, lending > credence to the daughterboard theory. All the chips are labeled in an > intersting way-- u84 158 is --get this-- a 74LS158N. Don't ya wish > everything was made like this? Expanded memory (Al la AboveBoard, etc) plus serial port. Daughter board added realtime batter-backed clock IIRC. Used one in the Zenith Z150 I have now (but didn't get the JRAM-3 with the Zenith). -dq From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 13:18:44 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259FD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Expanded memory (Al la AboveBoard, etc) plus serial port. Daughter > board added realtime batter-backed clock IIRC. Many different daughter cards. Like the Maynard's, it was basically a system bus of their own. > Used one in the Zenith > Z150 I have now (but didn't get the JRAM-3 with the Zenith). Want? If and when I can dig them out, I think that I have more than enough to satisfy everybody who is crazy enough to want 'em. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 14:10:39 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <006001c17b6d$6a213f20$7a469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 02:18 PM Subject: RE: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Expanded memory (Al la AboveBoard, etc) plus serial port. Daughter > > board added realtime batter-backed clock IIRC. > > Many different daughter cards. Like the Maynard's, it was basically a > system bus of their own. Looks to me like straight ISA on a header. Shouldn't be too hard to convert a 1/3 length card to plug right in, if it has vias all along the bottom. Trim the card-edge, solder on two rows of pins, and slap it in! I can't think of anything I want bad enought to do all that work for, tho. > > > Used one in the Zenith > > Z150 I have now (but didn't get the JRAM-3 with the Zenith). > Want? > > If and when I can dig them out, I think that I have more than enough to > satisfy everybody who is crazy enough to want 'em. > Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 12:34:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <001401c17ad5$f227c580$b2469280@y5f3q8> from "Robert Schaefer" at Dec 1, 1 09:06:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1981 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/6a26b2c0/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 13:27:21 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > 8 rows of 9 41256s sounds like 2Mbytes of parity-checked RAM. That's too > much for an 8088 to address directly. So this is probably some kind of > paged memory board, quite likely to be so called 'expanded memory'. RIGHT!! > > doesn't it? Combo card? it's got a looong double-row of pin sockets along > > the bottom just above the ISA connector, and another single row up the whole > > edge between the external connectors (male 9 pin & female 25 pin) and the > > components. Maybe a daughter board? It's got one 6-position DIP switch at > Myabe a daughterboard for more I/O. THAT daughterboard I haven't seen. > The 9 pin D plug sounds like a serial port. Is there a UART chip (40 pin, > 8250, 16450, 16550) on the board anywhere? What about 1488 and 1489 chips > (RS232 buffers). No UART. No 1488. No 1489. > If those chips are not on the board, then maybe the external connectors > just link to the row of sockets on the PCB near them, and you need the > daughterboard for any I/O functions. RIGHT!! Since you use CX laser controllers, perhaps you would like one/many ISA ones??? daughter card for JRAM?, on board along with the RAM on JLASER. The JLASER interface was supported by Xerox Ventura, Z-SOFT (PCPaint, etc), and a lot of others. There were also emulators for Postscript and for HP PCL that ran with the JLASER. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 13:45:15 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <004a01c17b69$de0a8b20$7a469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 01:34 PM Subject: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > > > > Anyone know what this is? It came from a 256K IBM XT, I thought at first it > > was a video card, (it was in the first slot), but it's got eight banks of > > All the slots on a PC/XT are identical, apart from slot 8 (which has the > well-known 'pull B8 low on reads from this card' problem). There is no > reason to assume that the card is slot 1 is video. Nor is there any > reason to assume that a video card in a PC/XT is MDA (or CGA for that > matter). It could be almost anything. Well, I made a few mistakes. I think it's a PC, not a PC/XT. Five 8 bit slots, a DIN tape port on the back, fully populated with 4 banks of 9 4564. It is a MCA video card, the `black and white/parallel' was a dead giveaway. > > > nine 41256 ram DIPs on it. That sounds like a lot for a mono video card, > > 8 rows of 9 41256s sounds like 2Mbytes of parity-checked RAM. That's too > much for an 8088 to address directly. So this is probably some kind of > paged memory board, quite likely to be so called 'expanded memory'. That's a lot bigger than I expected! The board has only 74 series logic on it, apart from the ram, so I guess all support for the ports on it are contained on the daughtercard. A closer look indicates that all the readily visible traces coming from the ports end up on the single-row header. > > > If those chips are not on the board, then maybe the external connectors > just link to the row of sockets on the PCB near them, and you need the > daughterboard for any I/O functions. Yup, that's my current guess too. the chip I broke is marked `D8284A' & `8404HKP" & with the AMD symbol. Any chance that is something non-essential that won't keep the board from booting? > > -tony Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 14:31:23 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <004a01c17b69$de0a8b20$7a469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > Well, I made a few mistakes. I think it's a PC, not a PC/XT. Five 8 bit > slots, a DIN tape port on the back, fully populated with 4 banks of 9 4564. > It is a MCA video card, the `black and white/parallel' was a dead giveaway. ^^^ CAREFUL! That would be an MDA (Monochrome Display Adapter), or more accurately MDP (Monochrome Display & Printer). MCA is MicroChannel Architecture (as used in PS/2), which it most definitely is NOT. picky, picky, ... > That's a lot bigger than I expected! The board has only 74 series logic on > it, apart from the ram, so I guess all support for the ports on it are > contained on the daughtercard. A closer look indicates that all the readily > visible traces coming from the ports end up on the single-row header. RIGHT > > If those chips are not on the board, then maybe the external connectors > > just link to the row of sockets on the PCB near them, and you need the > > daughterboard for any I/O functions. > Yup, that's my current guess too. RIGHT From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 12:42:38 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > This sounds like a memory expansion+i/o card, with functions similar to > the well known AST Six Pak Plus board. Does this card also have a 26 pin > header somewhere for the second serial port? Does it have a battery for a > real time clock? Make sure you write down the board's current dip switch > settings if you decide to try changing anything... It is NOT a multifunction card. It is a memory card. The DB25 is NOT parallel, it is not serial. On the Jlaser/Jlaser-Plus that use the same basic board design, the DB25 is CX laser controller (NOT Centronicsw parallel!), and the DE9 is for Canon IX-12 scanner (NOT video, serial, etc.) The card is ALL memory, with just a few "glue" chips. There is no multi-function stuff on it. The "daughter" cards, on the other hand, have all sorts of weird stuff. Want to buy a few? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 13:19:31 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <003101c17b66$45d74120$7a469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 01:42 PM Subject: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > It is NOT a multifunction card. > It is a memory card. > > The DB25 is NOT parallel, it is not serial. > On the Jlaser/Jlaser-Plus that use the same basic board design, the DB25 > is CX laser controller (NOT Centronicsw parallel!), and the DE9 is for > Canon IX-12 scanner (NOT video, serial, etc.) Cool! Any chance you have some docs on it? I haven't plugged anything in to it yet, altho I did power up the system a few times. Once made it as far as `PARITY 1 ERROR', most times it just sat there with the cursor blinking. I've been reseating all the chips. Got a little too smart tho-- I pulled one out to jam it back in, it came out crooked and broke two pins off. :( If I can't find a spare off another board, I'll see about soldering the pins back on. BTW, the MB has a V20. Is that stock on an IBM-branded XT? > > The card is ALL memory, with just a few "glue" chips. There is no > multi-function stuff on it. > > The "daughter" cards, on the other hand, have all sorts of weird stuff. What kind of weird stuff? Interesting-weird or strange-and-useles-weird? > > > Want to buy a few? daughterboards or cards? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 13:50:14 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <003101c17b66$45d74120$7a469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > Cool! Any chance you have some docs on it? Yes, but not today. > to it yet, altho I did power up the system a few times. Once made it as far > as `PARITY 1 ERROR', most times it just sat there with the cursor blinking. It is absolutely NOT needeed for bringing up the computer, so pull it out, and keep it out until the computer boots and runs properly. PARITY 1 ERROR is ususally memory problems on the motherboard. > I've been reseating all the chips. Got a little too smart tho-- I pulled > one out to jam it back in, it came out crooked and broke two pins off. > :( If I can't find a spare off another board, I'll see about soldering the > pins back on. It's very ordinary 64K(bit) DRAM. Shouldn't be a problem finding, and you could always disable that row of 9, and use the rest. If that was on the motherboard, it COULD be a 256K (simple mod on XT to run 2 rows of 256 and 2 of 64 for 640K total). On an EARLY 5150 PC, it could be a 16K. > BTW, the MB has a V20. Is that stock on an IBM-branded XT? No. But it was a common add-in. The V20 was a plugin compatible replacement for the 8088. It added an 8080 (not Z80) mode that was handy if you're heavily CP/M oriented, and provided an average throughput improvement of about 7% over the 8088. Since the performance improvement was a function of what instruction mix you use, it varied from -30%? to +200%, and was often sold to suckers as a 200% speedup. It also used less power, and was handy in systems running off of batteries. (NOTE: to use a V20 in a Gavilan required some board mods!) > > The card is ALL memory, with just a few "glue" chips. There is no > > multi-function stuff on it. > > The "daughter" cards, on the other hand, have all sorts of weird stuff. > What kind of weird stuff? Interesting-weird or strange-and-useles-weird? Yes > > Want to buy a few? > daughterboards or cards? Yes I'll try tomorrow to see if the more accessible tote of them has docs/software for the JRAM-3, and let you know. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 13:07:09 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <003901c17b2c$fa3c0720$ae469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > It is a RAM card. > That would make the card in slot three the video card. I thought the third > card was a combo IO card. It has a hayes 1200b modem in slot two. While it certainly might be, I don't see how THIS makes it one. > > Yes, there are numerous daughter cards, and related models with > > permanently installed options, including floppy controller, laser > > printer controller, scanner (IX-12) controller, etc. The only daughter card that I DON'T remember being available would be one for MORE memory. > Any idea where I can get docs ? I'd imangine it'll need a driver to use the > extra ram. Docs? , Drivers? I'll be glad to, but it may be a while. I have two totes full of them!, but they are on the bottom, back side of the few hundred totes containing the residue of my office. I know where ONE of the totes of them is, and can probably get to that one soon. The other tote will happen when I get to it. I did something real stupid when I moved out of my office. I tried to organize the stuff that I was packing. For example, I put all of my staplers (regular ones, binding ones, heavy duty ones, deep throat ones, ...) into one box. Now I can't find 'em, and have NO stapler. OB_historical_pedantics: John Henderson? (Tall Tree Systems) approached me (and others) at the West Coast Computer Faire, with a question of "have you written any programs that use lots of memory?" We thought that he was trying to recruit people with experience in memory management, etc. for a project. He wasn't. He was coming out with MASSIVE memory boards, some with MORE THAN A MEGABYTE! of memory for the PC. He wasn't looking for project workers, he was looking for existing stuff that could comprise a market and use for his product. (That's what you have) Eventually, he found the application for it. He marketed a laser printer controller, that bypassed the 256K, text only, controller of the HP LaserJet, etc, and created complete bitmap images in RAM (on his board) in the PC, and dumped them straight into the printer engine. (That was the JLASER board, with 2M of expanded RAM and laser printer controller) Later on, Lotus, Intel, and Microsoft met (and explicitly did NOT invite Tall Tree, the primary provider of such boards!) and worked out the "Lotus-Intel-Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification" ("LIM EMS"). It took Tall Tree less than a month to make revisions to be compatible with their "standard". He also produced the very popular JFORMAT, which was a simple device driver for squeezing 400K on a disk (10 512 byte sectors per track), as well as doing 720K and 800k on 96TPI low density (Tandon TM100-4, etc.) I have JLASER, JLASER-PLUS (with scanner interface), JRAM, JRAM2, JRAM3, JDISK, ..., ..., It's not very organized, and I know where one tote of them is, but not yet where the other one is. Who wants some? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 14:05:43 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <005d01c17b6c$d7dc2da0$7a469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 02:07 PM Subject: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > It is a RAM card. > > That would make the card in slot three the video card. I thought the third > > card was a combo IO card. It has a hayes 1200b modem in slot two. > > While it certainly might be, I don't see how THIS makes it one. > > > > > Yes, there are numerous daughter cards, and related models with > > > permanently installed options, including floppy controller, laser > > > printer controller, scanner (IX-12) controller, etc. > The only daughter card that I DON'T remember being available would be one > for MORE memory. > > > Any idea where I can get docs ? I'd imangine it'll need a driver to use the > > extra ram. > > Docs? , Drivers? > I'll be glad to, but it may be a while. > I have two totes full of them!, but they are on the bottom, back side of > the few hundred totes containing the residue of my office. > I know where ONE of the totes of them is, and can probably get to that one > soon. The other tote will happen when I get to it. I'm in no rush, in fact no true need other than curiousity. I'm getting curious about what's on the ST225 in the external case-- it came from the same pile, judging by the dirt on it. > > > I did something real stupid when I moved out of my office. I tried to > organize the stuff that I was packing. For example, I put all of my > staplers (regular ones, binding ones, heavy duty ones, deep throat ones, > ...) into one box. Now I can't find 'em, and have NO stapler. ^_^ > > > OB_historical_pedantics: John Henderson? (Tall Tree Systems) approached > me (and others) at the West Coast Computer Faire, with a question of "have > you written any programs that use lots of memory?" We thought that he was > trying to recruit people with experience in memory management, etc. for a > project. He wasn't. He was coming out with MASSIVE memory boards, some > with MORE THAN A MEGABYTE! of memory for the PC. He wasn't looking for > project workers, he was looking for existing stuff that could comprise a > market and use for his product. > (That's what you have) Interesting. I guess this a real bit of history I have here. > > Eventually, he found the application for it. He marketed a laser printer > controller, that bypassed the 256K, text only, controller of the HP > LaserJet, etc, and created complete bitmap images in RAM (on his board) in > the PC, and dumped them straight into the printer engine. > (That was the JLASER board, with 2M of expanded RAM and laser printer > controller) > > Later on, Lotus, Intel, and Microsoft met (and explicitly did NOT invite > Tall Tree, the primary provider of such boards!) and worked out the > "Lotus-Intel-Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification" ("LIM EMS"). It > took Tall Tree less than a month to make revisions to be compatible with > their "standard". > > He also produced the very popular JFORMAT, which was a simple device > driver for squeezing 400K on a disk (10 512 byte sectors per track), as > well as doing 720K and 800k on 96TPI low density (Tandon TM100-4, etc.) > > > I have JLASER, JLASER-PLUS (with scanner interface), JRAM, JRAM2, JRAM3, > JDISK, ..., ..., It's not very organized, and I know where one tote of > them is, but not yet where the other one is. Who wants some? What's the difference 'tween the various JRAM boards? Max installable ram? > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 14:27:46 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <005d01c17b6c$d7dc2da0$7a469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > I'm in no rush, in fact no true need other than curiousity. I'm getting > curious about what's on the ST225 in the external case-- it came from the > same pile, judging by the dirt on it. Be aware that XT hard disk controllers are NOT mutually interchangeable! If it was formatted on an XT compatible hard disk controller, then you will need THAT model of controller to read it! (Or a LOT of sector and below level programming!) On the ATs, they standardized the controllers (almost), and you can read a drive formatted with a different brand of controller. > Interesting. I guess this a real bit of history I have here. > What's the difference 'tween the various JRAM boards? Max installable ram? Mostly just subsequent "improvements". 8 bit and 16 bit interface with/without LIM EMS support? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Dec 2 13:56:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A06@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Expanded memory (Al la AboveBoard, etc) plus serial port. Daughter > > board added realtime batter-backed clock IIRC. > > Many different daughter cards. Like the Maynard's, it was basically a > system bus of their own. > > > Used one in the Zenith > > Z150 I have now (but didn't get the JRAM-3 with the Zenith). > Want? Hmmm... > If and when I can dig them out, I think that I have more than enough to > satisfy everybody who is crazy enough to want 'em. Might be useful on another XT-class machine... while the Zenith still belonged to employer, I bought a kit which modified the Zenith memory board using a new PAL to provide 768K, or 750K plus some UMBs... ISTR is was incompatible with continued use of the JRAM-3, tho... Docs/drivers? versions with the clock board? -dq From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 14:22:24 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A06@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Might be useful on another XT-class machine... while the > Zenith still belonged to employer, I bought a kit which > modified the Zenith memory board using a new PAL to provide > 768K, or 750K plus some UMBs... ISTR is was incompatible > with continued use of the JRAM-3, tho... Couldn't you jumper/configure the JRAM for a different "window" location? > Docs/drivers? versions with the clock board? >From memory: I know that I have some JRAMs of several different models, and LOTS of JLASER (JRAM with laser printer controller), some complete with docs, some just boards, etc. Some daughterboards, including floppy controller, but I don't know if I still have any of the clock daughterboards. I also have some Maynard floppy controllers, and some of their daughterboards, but I don't remember which. I think that I may have a Maynard clock daugherboard (without software) I had planned to take all of the TallTree (JRAM/JLASER) and Maynard stuff to VCF, but, ... -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 NOTE: My ISP is having difficulties. If you have problems reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu fcisin@merritt.edu From vance at ikickass.org Sun Dec 2 12:04:25 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: NeXT stuff Message-ID: Ok. I had borrowed a soundbox and cables for my NeXT, but the person from whom I had borrowed them wants them back. Does anyone have an extra non-ADB soundbox and cables for a NeXT color slab available? My monitor has 3BNC connection. Also, (I know I am doing a bit of wishful thinking here), does anyone have a Pyro accelerator board for a slab, they wouldn't mind selling? Peace... Sridhar From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Dec 2 12:04:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: FLUKE? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259FE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I was at the other yard of the scrapper yesterday. He just had in a > bunch of IBM 3174's and a few large Hitachi data storage units. > Beside this was another large unit labelled FLUKE. It's too late for > it but I did get the 8" floppy disks for it. It was raining so they > got a bit wet. They are drying now. > > > Does anyone know anything about FLUKE machines? They DVMs, specialized test gear, and ISTR a logic analyzer... -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 2 12:13:23 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: RE: FLUKE? (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259FE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15370.28483.464547.245640@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 2, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I was at the other yard of the scrapper yesterday. He just had in a > > bunch of IBM 3174's and a few large Hitachi data storage units. > > Beside this was another large unit labelled FLUKE. It's too late for > > it but I did get the 8" floppy disks for it. It was raining so they > > got a bit wet. They are drying now. > > > > Does anyone know anything about FLUKE machines? > > They DVMs, specialized test gear, and ISTR a logic analyzer... And a large line of microprocessor emulators and related development systems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 2 12:07:02 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: <003301c17b56$82529a60$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: >I was at the other yard of the scrapper yesterday. He just had in a >bunch of IBM 3174's and a few large Hitachi data storage units. >Beside this was another large unit labelled FLUKE. It's too late for >it but I did get the 8" floppy disks for it. It was raining so they >got a bit wet. They are drying now. > > >Does anyone know anything about FLUKE machines? Could it have been a piece of Test equipment? Fluke is my favorite DVM manufacturer, and they make a *lot* of test equipement. I've no idea if what you saw was made by the same company, or if they made computer hardware at one time (they do make some pretty cool network testing hardware). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Dec 2 12:12:01 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: FLUKE? Message-ID: <170.4e96df5.293bc8f1@aol.com> In a message dated 12/2/01 9:35:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, KenzieM@sympatico.ca writes: > Does anyone know anything about FLUKE machines? > Fluke makes test equipment including some Board Test machinery in the State of Washington. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/c38d7d9d/attachment.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Dec 2 14:15:46 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: <003301c17b56$82529a60$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011202151546.007b6c10@mailhost.intellistar.net> I know something about the Fluke machines but I've never seen one with 8" drives. AFIK Fluke made very few large machines. Joe At 12:26 PM 12/2/01 -0500, you wrote: >I was at the other yard of the scrapper yesterday. He just had in a >bunch of IBM 3174's and a few large Hitachi data storage units. >Beside this was another large unit labelled FLUKE. It's too late for >it but I did get the 8" floppy disks for it. It was raining so they >got a bit wet. They are drying now. > > >Does anyone know anything about FLUKE machines? > > > >Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Dec 2 12:32:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A00@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > ! I saw ... a SuperMac monitor, smaller than the 19inch > ! Radius I've got, but the bug mentioned a "huge" one in back. > > Really? Any idea if they work, and what shipping to CT > (06520-9040) might be? I'll make an effort to get you the info you're asking for on this, but please be patient, I'm not sure when I can get back there during business hours. > ! I have ... and/or the split keyboard. > > Cool. That is a neat piece of Mac history. How much? How about $25 plus S&H? The numeric keypad is in great shape, but the main KB has yellowed. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Dec 2 13:47:04 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A05@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Oops! Meant to be private... > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 1:32 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a > Lisa or Mac XL?!) > > > > ! I saw ... a SuperMac monitor, smaller than the 19inch > > ! Radius I've got, but the bug mentioned a "huge" one in back. > > > > Really? Any idea if they work, and what shipping to CT > > (06520-9040) might be? > > I'll make an effort to get you the info you're asking for on > this, but please be patient, I'm not sure when I can get back > there during business hours. > > > ! I have ... and/or the split keyboard. > > > > Cool. That is a neat piece of Mac history. How much? > > How about $25 plus S&H? The numeric keypad is in > great shape, but the main KB has yellowed. > > -dq > From bsupnik at nauticusnet.com Sun Dec 2 12:53:58 2001 From: bsupnik at nauticusnet.com (Bob Supnik) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: PDP-9 lives Message-ID: Hans, First, congratulations on this terrific progress! Second, a stop at 22 is probably an unexpected CAL (opcode of 0), which would do an effective JMS 20, pick up the instruction at 21 (probably a HLT to catch the CAL), and then halt with an apparent PC = 22. Take a look at M[20], it should have the PC+1 of the CAL. /Bob -----Original Message----- From: Hans B Pufal To: classiccmp; aek@spies.com; Bob Supnik Sent: 12/1/01 12:59 PM Subject: PDP-9 lives I am very happy to be able to announce that the PDP-9 that we have been working on for quite some time finally began talking to the world again today. We had gotten memory and processor operational, then had to fix a memory fault which developed. TTY I/O posed some problems but finally today it spoke and we could reply. We ran the only two test routines we have on paper tape: the extended memory test and the TTY test. There appears to be some issue with the TTY since part 1 test halts after a while with PC=22, no mention of that in the test writeup! TTY test part 2 runs without error. Anyways, we plan on completeing checkout on this system, fix a couple of burnt our indicator bulbs and get the punch up before starting on the second system we have. That one has a dual dectapes, then we can read the 100 or so tapes trhat came with the system, and run some real software ;-) I'd be interested in knowing the status of other pdp-9's. Regards -- hbp for ACONIT, Grenoble France From leec at slip.net Sun Dec 2 14:01:02 2001 From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer (was History of Computing exam question) In-Reply-To: <3C09C844.10905@aconit.org> Message-ID: The Computer History Museum (formerly The Computer Museum History Center) has one on display. See http://www.computerhistory.org/exhibits/highlights/apollo.page for details. Lee Courtney President Monterey Software Group Inc. 1350 Pear Avenue, Suite J Mountain View, California 94043-1302 U.S.A. 650-964-7052 voice 650-964-6735 fax Advanced Authentication, Audit, and Access Control Tools and Consulting for HP3000 Business Servers http://www.editcorp.com/Businesses/MontereySoftware > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans B Pufal > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 10:21 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apollo Guidance Computer (was History of Computing exam > question) > > > > > CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > > Found a java applet that simulates the DSKY (display and keyboard) > > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Cockpit/1556/dsky.html > > > > As MIT designed the AGC's I bet they have all of the documentation > > filed away somewhere. Found some interesting documents at > > http://hrst.mit.edu/hrs/apollo/public/ > > > > 1689.pdf - "Block II keyboard and dsiplay program (RETRED44)" > > Gives a Block II verb/noun list > > > > 1692.pdf - "AGC4 Memo #9 Block II Instructions" > > Block II Memory map and instruction set > > > Sourceforge as a semiactive project to write a simulator don't know if > the code cited above is pert of that or a different project. > > Ther eis also a book about the computers used int he Apollo era. From a > previous (26 Sep 2001) post in cccmp by John Allan: > > > re Eldon Hall's book "Journey to the Moon" > > > BTW It is expensive but worth > > it, even if you like Only computers or only spaceflight. (but both? > > ) > > > Publisher: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics > > Date: 1996 > > ISBN: 1-56347-185-X > > URLS: > > http://www.aiaa.org/store/storeproductdetail.cfm?ID=358 > > available from Amazon but url is too long to post ;-) > > -- hbp > > From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 14:18:58 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Altair, 8080 assembler Message-ID: <006601c17b6e$9414e1a0$7a469280@y5f3q8> Anyone have a quick rundown on the front panel operations for an altair? I've been playing with altair32, but I never had the real thing, so I can only guess at what some of the switches do. And maybe recommentations on cross assemblers (x86/win32), or at least a LART in the right direction? My google searches aren't too helpful. Thanks! Bob From mhstein at usa.net Sun Dec 2 17:16:22 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' Message-ID: <01C17B5D.74C00200@mse-d03> Oh yeah... I know exactly what you mean... ----------Original Message---------- I did something real stupid when I moved out of my office. I tried to organize the stuff that I was packing. For example, I put all of my staplers (regular ones, binding ones, heavy duty ones, deep throat ones, ....) into one box. Now I can't find 'em, and have NO stapler. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 13:10:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Dec 2, 1 11:43:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/0339775b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 15:13:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 2, 1 11:07:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2078 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/88ca12cd/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 2 15:38:55 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <15370.40815.684474.425530@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 2, Tony Duell wrote: > > Eventually, he found the application for it. He marketed a laser printer > > controller, that bypassed the 256K, text only, controller of the HP > > LaserJet, etc, and created complete bitmap images in RAM (on his board) in > > the PC, and dumped them straight into the printer engine. > > Sounds like it worked with a Canon CX-VDO printer. > > This is a Canon CX engine with no internal formatter (controller) board. > It still has the DC controller -- the little microcontroller board for the > mechanics, but the interface is very low level. Essentially you have : I thought that was called an LBP-CX. That was a long time ago, though, so I don't really trust my memory... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 16:52:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <15370.40815.684474.425530@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 2, 1 04:38:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1070 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/0a2cf706/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 15:41:58 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Eventually, he found the application for it. He marketed a laser printer > > controller, that bypassed the 256K, text only, controller of the HP > > LaserJet, etc, and created complete bitmap images in RAM (on his board) in > > the PC, and dumped them straight into the printer engine. > Sounds like it worked with a Canon CX-VDO printer. > This is a Canon CX engine with no internal formatter (controller) board. > It still has the DC controller -- the little microcontroller board for the > mechanics, but the interface is very low level. Essentially you have : That is entirely correct! The Jlaser was the most widely sold board that provided that interface. They also made a tiny board to go into a LaserJet that would switch it in and out of the system under software control! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 15:15:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 2, 1 11:27:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/603ebbb7/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 15:44:55 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > I assume, therefore, that you could, in theory, add a daughtboard that > did use the DE9 as a normal serial port and the DB25 as a parallel port. > Even though that board may not ever have existed.... yes > > Since you use CX laser controllers, perhaps you would like one/many ISA > > ones??? daughter card for JRAM?, on board along with the RAM on JLASER. > Hmmm... Is this directed at me? yes. There are few people who know about, much less use the CX engines. (I have also used a Jlaser with SX in a LaserJet model 2). Since few people even know about them, I figure that you'd be one of the most likely to be able to come up with a use for one or more of them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 15:18:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' In-Reply-To: <004a01c17b69$de0a8b20$7a469280@y5f3q8> from "Robert Schaefer" at Dec 2, 1 02:45:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/b0d8491c/attachment.ksh From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 16:11:02 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <00c101c17b7e$3bb073c0$7a469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 04:18 PM Subject: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > > the chip I broke is marked `D8284A' & `8404HKP" & with the AMD symbol. Any > > chance that is something non-essential that won't keep the board from > > booting? > > Not a hope. It's the CPU (and other) clock generator chip. Without it, > you'll not have any clock signals anywhere Well, I guess it should be pretty easy to strip from another board, then. Knew I saved those clone boards for something! > > -tony Bob From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 15:35:10 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:33 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <008701c17b79$53118180$7a469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 03:31 PM Subject: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > Well, I made a few mistakes. I think it's a PC, not a PC/XT. Five 8 bit > > slots, a DIN tape port on the back, fully populated with 4 banks of 9 4564. > > It is a MCA video card, the `black and white/parallel' was a dead giveaway. > ^^^ > CAREFUL! That would be an MDA (Monochrome Display Adapter), or more > accurately MDP (Monochrome Display & Printer). MCA is MicroChannel > Architecture (as used in PS/2), which it most definitely is NOT. > picky, picky, ... You are absolutely right, and I even know better. I can only plead brain fart. Bob From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 2 15:35:56 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' References: Message-ID: <008801c17b79$54b51f60$7a469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 03:27 PM Subject: Re: Tall Tree Systems`JRAM-3' > On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > I'm in no rush, in fact no true need other than curiousity. I'm getting > > curious about what's on the ST225 in the external case-- it came from the > > same pile, judging by the dirt on it. > > Be aware that XT hard disk controllers are NOT mutually > interchangeable! If it was formatted on an XT compatible hard disk > controller, then you will need THAT model of controller to read it! (Or a > LOT of sector and below level programming!) > On the ATs, they standardized the controllers (almost), and you can read a > drive formatted with a different brand of controller. Ok. The PC has an Adaptec controller assy # 401406-00 with ROMs dated '85 FWIW. I'm pretty sure the drive came with this PC, but worst case I could just reformat, right? No embedded servo tracks that requires a fancy controller/different roms/different controller to write? > > > Interesting. I guess this a real bit of history I have here. > > What's the difference 'tween the various JRAM boards? Max installable ram? > > Mostly just subsequent "improvements". > 8 bit and 16 bit interface > with/without LIM EMS support? This is most assuredly an 8 bit card. Other than that, IDK. Guess I'll just have to wait and see. Oh, it's serial # 803181 too. > > Bob From fdebros at verizon.net Sun Dec 2 15:35:27 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Is a Toshiba T4800ct a classiccomputer? In-Reply-To: <006601c17b6e$9414e1a0$7a469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: <000501c17b79$42d4b4e0$6501a8c0@fred> Ok then maybe I find an answer (or pointer) here, although the group seems more unixy to me...I might get shoo'd away with such a modern system. How the h... do I load a scsi interface in DOS or windows onto one of these things attached to a docking station type IV with a scsi disk? In POST, the SCSI interface is recognized, but then it doesn't show the drive in DOS...and I don't have the driver file, but aspi 2 etc. The win98 rescue disk asks the right questions but doesn't startup the disk in dos, autoexec.bat and config.sys are empty! fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 2 15:48:02 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Is a Toshiba T4800ct a classiccomputer? In-Reply-To: <000501c17b79$42d4b4e0$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Fred deBros wrote: > Ok then maybe I find an answer (or pointer) here, although the group > seems more unixy to me...I might get shoo'd away with such a modern > system. > How the h... do I load a scsi interface in DOS or windows onto one of > these things attached to a docking station type IV with a scsi disk? In > POST, the SCSI interface is recognized, but then it doesn't show the > drive in DOS...and I don't have the driver file, but aspi 2 etc. The > win98 rescue disk asks the right questions but doesn't startup the disk > in dos, autoexec.bat and config.sys are empty! I put an Adaptec SCSI card and Toshiba CD-ROM drive into the docking station. With Windoze95, it worked great for a few hours, and then the power supply of the docking station died. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Sun Dec 2 17:10:36 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <030d01c17ad1$c96be710$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <200112022310.MAA15841@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Geoff Roberts : > [Apollo guidance computer] was the one in the LEM the same machine? I believe it was suffiently similar for the Apollo 13 crew to run the CM software on the LM computer well enough to navigate themselves home. By the way, is there any detailed architectural info about this machine on the Web? I've looked before, but only found general descriptions. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From jrice at texoma.net Sun Dec 2 17:24:31 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: NeXT stuff References: Message-ID: <3C0AB82F.2060007@texoma.net> I've talked to a couple of people who have Pyro boards. They don't seem too stable. Not that I would mind, I could adapt to rebooting one of my NeXt machines like my Windows machines. Small price to pay I assume? ;-) One Without Reason wrote: >Ok. I had borrowed a soundbox and cables for my NeXT, but the person from >whom I had borrowed them wants them back. Does anyone have an extra >non-ADB soundbox and cables for a NeXT color slab available? My monitor >has 3BNC connection. > >Also, (I know I am doing a bit of wishful thinking here), does anyone have >a Pyro accelerator board for a slab, they wouldn't mind selling? > >Peace... Sridhar > > >. > From univac2 at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 18:34:48 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: ICOT 57 Terminal Message-ID: I bought a working ICOT Model 57 Terminal at a thrift store tonight. It was used with the American Airlines SABRE system. Does anyone have a keyboard for it, or know anything about it? I'm assuming its interface is RS-232. Am I right? Thanks, Owen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 2 13:00:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: <003301c17b56$82529a60$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> from "Mike Kenzie" at Dec 2, 1 12:26:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 235 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011202/46defb2f/attachment.ksh From msell at ontimesupport.com Sun Dec 2 19:17:36 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: References: <003301c17b56$82529a60$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011202191425.00a92778@127.0.0.1> Fluke actually did make a line of computers that were used as instrument controllers in the late 70's and early 80's. These controllers had support for serial port control and IEEE488, as well as touch screens (some models). From what I understand of these machines, they actually could run a couple of different operating systems (types unknown), as well as several different programming languages. The first offerings from Fluke for automated instrument calibration and control ran on these. I believe one of the model numbers was "1711". Sorry for the vagueness, I've had brief contact with them only. You may have found a disk for one of these controllers. - Matt At 07:00 PM 12/2/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about FLUKE machines? > >Fluke are a well-known (and good) manufacturer of test equipment, etc. > >They certainly made microprocessor development systems at one point, and >I guess that's what you saw. > >-tony Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From spedraja at ono.com Sun Dec 2 15:15:32 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <044701c17b76$79fd8620$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hello. I have one problem I'd like somebody could help me to solve. I have one TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop. The Microvax can't detect the TK50. This tape unit works perfectly. I have the cover of it retired, and I have located the ribbon that aid to select the SCSI address of the unit. The Microvax haven't attached any other external unit, and internally have two disks. How can I know if the unit is attached ? The SHOW DEVICES in the boot ROM don't says nothing. Greetings Sergio From spedraja at ono.com Sun Dec 2 15:25:02 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: MP/M and Yaze Message-ID: <044a01c17b77$ce2c02c0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hello again. I have another matter that could be interesting for somebody (I hope). The Yaze CP/M emulator v.1.20 comex with support for switched memory banks (in appearence). I couldn't review the source code by now. Somebody did it ? I should like to reconstruct one simple MP/M system under it. I know some source code can be donwloaded from http://www.cpm.z80.de and I did it, bit my next problem is related with the modules needed to construct the OS nucleus, and the order of these modules. I could need a hand too with CP/M. I have some doubts about the paper of the CBIOS.ASM and BIOS.ASM modules. Finally, I'm interesting about one fascinating CP/M emulator, the ZRPM. It does one emulation of diverse models of computers that could run CP/M like the Osborne and the Kaypro. I can say that I've loadad two versions of Wordstar for every computer under the same emulator, and loaded one or another adjusting settings internally in the ZRPM telling it was worked in a Kaypro or Osborne portable. I thought all these matters was under control of the BDOS but here are more misterious. Right ? What exactly ? Thanks and Greetings Sergio From steve at airborn.com.au Sun Dec 2 19:55:56 2001 From: steve at airborn.com.au (Steven Murray) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Dataproducts printer inteface Message-ID: <00fc01c17b9d$a7824960$259117d2@garuda> Sorry for the repost... but has anyone heard of the (old) Dataproducts printer inteface? It was also called the Line printer interface, and was used on other Brands besides just Dataproducts. Basically I know it uses differential signals - otherwise similar to centronics - but I would like to find out some details. I have the Pinout: http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/parallel/dataproductsdsub50.html I would really like to find a description of the "Demand" signal and the polarity of "Strobe" and "OnLine" I would like to know the levels (I presume they are TTL) If anyone can help me out, perhaps I can respond in kind by giving them the final result - a circuit for a Centronics-->Dataproducts interface. steve@airborn.com.au From optimus at canit.se Sun Dec 2 19:01:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: AW: Atari 4160STE ?! In-Reply-To: <81BDC19FEA82D311A83900A024F2457F2A7B1D@osiris.e-spirit.de> Message-ID: <764.737T2150T1216287optimus@canit.se> Walgenbach, Stefan skrev: >> While I don't have every single ST component listed, the ST section under >> Atari Computers on my website should be of help to you: >> www.atarimuseum.com >Of course I checked your web-site first for infos about the 4160STe :) >Perhaps some day you have the time to make a complete list of all Atari >Computer Systems - I think there are quite a few unkown systems like the >Atari ST520+, CLab Falcon MK I, II and X - there also was an Atari 520 STE - >very strange ... What's strange about the 520STE? All my STEs are 520 models. The MKX is really sexy. I drooled over one many times when I passed it by in a shop window near my old school. Mmm, now I'm thinking of it again in its rack- mount glory. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Dec 2 21:27:03 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: FLUKE? Message-ID: <20011202.212704.-249581.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I worked for FLUKE in the early 1980's, at their Burbank repair facility, in Burbank Ca (where I also lived). The FLUKE 1720 and 1722 machines did not use 8" floppy drives, they used 5.25" floppies, with optional bubble memory and Winchester (using a GPIB interface). There are only three kinds of system that FLUKE made that utilized (or could have utilized) 8" floppies: 1. FLUKE 3040/3050/3053 series board testers. These are of some interest, because it's the only application I ever saw that used the PACE microprocessor. These things are about the size and shape of an upright piano (and just as heavy). The 'upright' part was covered mit swicthen und blinkenlites. The computer was in a cardcage bolted to the underside of the table, which also helld the 8" drives. They made this cool, low pitched WAAAAAAAH! AAAAAAH! AAAH! AAAH! AAAH! sound when booting. 2. FLUKE 3200 Manufacturing Fault Analyzer. These were largely used to test bare boards and wire harnesses. These are particularly interesting not only because they used 8" floppies, but they used an off-the-shelf computer made by ONTEL. It ran a hacked-up version of CP/M, and was programmed in ATLAS. This beast had *no* blinkenlites. 3. FLUKE 'Terminal/10' analog test system. The T/10 was already old when it was moved to the back of the 1981 FLUKE Catalog. It was an ATE system aimed at analog device testing. It was controlled by a PDP-11 (need I say more?). I think it ran a hacked-up version of RT-11 (but I'm not certain). I've never seen one of these. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Sun Dec 2 21:30:03 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Wang info Message-ID: <01120222300300.01447@ws1> I have started putting together some wang info pages on the web, for obsolete/historic systems such as the OIS, and soon, early VS systems. It's just a start right now, but some of it is there for all to see at http://pages.prodigy.net/jdonogh1/wang.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 3 00:19:21 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E bulbs Message-ID: I'm making progress on the PDP-8/E I got this last week. The powersupply checks out once the Front Panel is plugged in, and thanks to all the spare lightbulbs I've got all the burnt out bulbs replaced. Unfortunatly I'm now down to two spares which my -8/m could probably use, the -8/e had nearly half it's bulbs out. This brings up the question, how hard is it to get replacement bulbs? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 3 00:40:54 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E bulbs In-Reply-To: PDP-8/E bulbs (Zane H. Healy) References: Message-ID: <15371.7798.224477.85707@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 2, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm making progress on the PDP-8/E I got this last week. The powersupply > checks out once the Front Panel is plugged in, and thanks to all the spare > lightbulbs I've got all the burnt out bulbs replaced. Unfortunatly I'm now > down to two spares which my -8/m could probably use, the -8/e had nearly > half it's bulbs out. This brings up the question, how hard is it to get > replacement bulbs? I thought all 8/M systems had LED front panels. At least every one I've seen has. Not sure where to find replacements. Newark Electronics has a nice (but expensive) selection of lamps. Also you might want to try Gilway Technical Lamp...if you can't find them online, let me know and I'll dig up a catalog. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Dec 3 00:59:17 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> Hello, I saw a couple of MicroVax II's over the weekend and they look like good project machines. Does anyone in the Houston, TX area have any they want to part with? Never hurts to ask! - Matt Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From wmsmith at earthlink.net Mon Dec 3 00:53:57 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Ebay madness -- Kaypro II for $515 References: <01120222300300.01447@ws1> Message-ID: <008b01c17bc7$4857b360$3934cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Two guys who have bid up a Kaypro II to $515 on eBay . . . and there's still 13 hours left. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1301312698 Both joined eBay during the past few weeks, which may explain it. One of them is currently high bidder on an Osborne 01 that is already over $300. I'm going to get my "rare" "museum-grade" Kaypro 4 up for auction right away! -W From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Mon Dec 3 01:34:14 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: <044701c17b76$79fd8620$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> References: <044701c17b76$79fd8620$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Message-ID: <1007364856.27956.2.camel@silke> Some more datapoints, please: - Do you have a TK50 or a TK50Z (I think the "Z" is the indication that it is indeed the real SCSI variant)? Does it have an SCSI-ID-switch on the back? - What model is your '3100? Just plain "MicroVAX3100", or is there some M-Number (like "M40")? - What *does* "SHOW DEV" say? - Do you have one or two SCSI-Busses? Or, maybe easier to answer: Does the machine have a floppy drive installed? - Does one (or both) of the internal disks "disappear" whenever you plug in the TK50? Anyway, usually problems with SCSI-Devices are due to either termination problems, bad cables or conflicting SCSI-ID's. regards ms On Sun, 2001-12-02 at 22:15, SP wrote: > Hello. I have one problem I'd like somebody could > help me to solve. I have one TK50-GA external > SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop. > The Microvax can't detect the TK50. This tape unit > works perfectly. I have the cover of it retired, and > I have located the ribbon that aid to select the > SCSI address of the unit. The Microvax > haven't attached any other external unit, and > internally have two disks. > > How can I know if the unit is attached ? > The SHOW DEVICES in the boot ROM don't says > nothing. > > Greetings > > Sergio > > > > > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 3 02:21:08 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > I saw a couple of MicroVax II's over the weekend and they look like > good project machines. Does anyone in the Houston, TX area have any > they want to part with? > > Never hurts to ask! I'm in Houston and have a MircoVax II, but I don't really want to part with it...I bought mine for a project machine a few years ago, but I really don't know when I'll get around to getting it up and running. -Toth From spedraja at ono.com Mon Dec 3 02:26:59 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <001601c17bd4$48243460$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hello: >Some more datapoints, please: > >- Do you have a TK50 or a TK50Z (I think the "Z" is the indication that >it is indeed the real SCSI variant)? Does it have an SCSI-ID-switch on >the back? It's a TK50Z-GA. Real SCSI (not like the TK50Z-FA for the VS2000). And it has the SCSI ID selector back. >- What model is your '3100? Just plain "MicroVAX3100", or is there some >M-Number (like "M40")? DV-31ATB-A I don't have more info. I think is the more basic Microvax 3100 Desktop Model. I've located only one reference in Google about this model, in one Reseller's Catalog. >- What *does* "SHOW DEV" say? I must check it and print it. >- Do you have one or two SCSI-Busses? Or, maybe easier to answer: Does >the machine have a floppy drive installed? The machine has two scsi buses or ar least two SCSI connectors back, one large and another of lightly minor size. It don't has floppies installed. >- Does one (or both) of the internal disks "disappear" whenever you plug >in the TK50? The VMS boot goes perfect and detects both disks. One is for the system and the other for the user data (at least in my first inquiries). >Anyway, usually problems with SCSI-Devices are due to either termination >problems, bad cables or conflicting SCSI-ID's. It appears the SCSI id's are correctly adjusted. I suspect a little more about the SCSI cable, but it works with other machines. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Dec 3 11:18:08 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467317@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] ...... ! But I will take anything Apple related that people will just give me ! (although not everything stays with me, better useable macs ! get given out ! to people that can't afford a computer... for instance, the ! Classic II I ! got from David I am giving to someone for Xmas that has no ! computer, the ! kid can at least use it for writing school papers, checking ! email, basic ! web browsing, and playing some games... it is a step ahead of the ! nothingness he can use right now). ! ! -chris Well, I should've just sent the LCII along also, if I knew that. No-one seems to want it! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 12:22:27 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Microchannel ethernet NIC Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF18@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Anybody got one (see subject) they don't want? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Dec 3 02:47:00 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: <20011202.212704.-249581.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>; from jeff.kaneko@juno.com on Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 04:27:03 CET References: <20011202.212704.-249581.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20011203094700.E420132@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.03 04:27 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > with optional bubble memory What is this? A type of RAM? Whow does it work? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 3 07:24:19 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: FLUKE? Message-ID: <001b01c17bfd$d129bb80$6b7b7b7b@ajp> It's not RAM per se. It's basically a disk like structure, the difference is rather than rotate the media they move the magnetic domains around. I have a few 128kbyte (1Mbit) bubbles I use still. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jochen Kunz To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, December 03, 2001 4:11 AM Subject: Re: FLUKE? >On 2001.12.03 04:27 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > >> with optional bubble memory >What is this? A type of RAM? Whow does it work? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 3 10:16:19 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: Re: FLUKE? (Allison) References: <001b01c17bfd$d129bb80$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <15371.42323.864664.408545@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 3, Allison wrote: > It's not RAM per se. > > It's basically a disk like structure, the difference is rather than rotate > the media they move the magnetic domains around. I have a few > 128kbyte (1Mbit) bubbles I use still. Yup, it's sequentially accessed. At least one company still sells & supports it, though I don't know if they're actually producing it at this point.. It's a really neat technology. It moves the magnetic domains around "tracks" in (if memory serves) a crystalline garnet substrate. These domains can be set to "0" or "1" and are read by moving them past a detector. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Mon Dec 3 04:14:44 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Antron MST300 (was:RE: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods ) Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021917@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> That's one hell of a pair of cards :) My stuff is definitely Antron though. Their website is at http://www.btinternet.com/~andy.antron/ and they're still doing the same thing.... cheers > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe [mailto:rigdonj@intellistar.net] > Sent: 30 November 2001 18:54 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Antron MST300 (was:RE: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and > pods) > > > If you mean Atron then yes I've heard of them. if fact, I was just > searching for info on them this morning. I have two full length IBM PC > style cards that are both marked "Atron", one plugs into an 8 > bit ISA slot > and the other plugs into a 16-bit ISA slot. The cards have a > ribbon cable > that connects them together at the top. One is marked "Master > Break Trace" > and the other is marked "Slave Break Trace". (looks like > they're for an > emulator). Both boards have a large male 3U type connector on > the outside. > I've posted a picture at > . FWIW > I pulled these > out of an old 286 Compaq Deskpro. I wanted to get the drive > but it was > already gone :-( > > Joe > > > At 05:13 PM 11/30/01 -0000, you wrote: > >Speaking of chip testers has anyone come across the Antron > company and their > >testing equipment? Antron are still going and still selling > test kit to the > >likes of Compaq, but since they didn't reply to my email I'm > assuming they > >had no old documentation. > > > >Basically the MST300 is a 386 based PC with 2 extra ISA > cards that interface > >with the testing 'pods'. I've got pods for the 8086, 80286, > 80386SX and DX, > >Moto 68K and I'm still not sure what they were supposed to > be testing! > > > >I'll post pix on Binary Dinosaurs when I get 'em taken :) > > > >-- > >Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd > >e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com > >w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com > >w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) > > > From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Mon Dec 3 04:40:56 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: DEC Infoserver 150 Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021918@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Hardware wise the Infoserver 150 is a MicroVAX 3100 Model 10. Software wise I never got any real chance to hack mine and ATM it's in my storage room along with a VXT1200 X-terminal, which was the reason the 150 existed in the first place - one of the popular DEC bundles of the day was an infoserver and 5 VXTs. The software uses the Local Area Disk protocol (LAD/LAST) for disk services which requires a client to be running on a VAX somewhere (SYS$MANAGER:ESS$STARTUP.COM). VXTs could boot using IP/BOOTP/TFTP. There must be more than just ROM changes to the hardware though. I used to think that the whole reason the 150 came about in the first place was that Digital had a small mountain of 3100/10s lying around so they did their usual trick of using old hardware for new tricks (viz: RL02s as console media for bigger VAXen (6xxx?), PRO380s as consoles for 8xxx's etc). The 150 was superceded by the Infoserver 1000, which was smaller than the RRD42s that it controlled. > > Hi folks. I got a few questions. First, is there anything > that makes > > this box different from a plain-vanilla VAXserver 3100? > Second, does > > anyone have the software for this bad boy? Third, will the > software run > > on a regular VAXserver 3100? Fourth, what does the > software consist of? > > I can provide the software, but the InfoServer 150 is different from a > VAXserver 3100. I've tried to swap the ROMs, but that didn't > work. The > InfoServer 100 is the same as a VAXserver 3100 (but I can't remember > which model) with different ROMs. If you want to try, I can provide > Infoserver 100 ROM images. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Dec 3 04:44:44 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706626B@exc-reo1> > The machine has two scsi buses or ar least two SCSI connectors back, > one large and another of lightly minor size. I cannot think of *any* MicroVAX or VAXstation that has two SCSI connectors of *different* sizes. The VAXstation 3100s pretty much all have a single SCSI connector (the small size - HD68 is what I've seen it called in the past). The VAXstation 4000-9x/60 have one Amphenol 50-way SCSI connector (the expansion boxes have two, but connected as an in-out bus). I forget about the 4000-VLC, but it cannot really have room for more than one connector! The MicroVAX 3100 series machines are all (IIRC) in one of two similar boxes - the only difference being the height (the larger one has two trays on to which hard drives may be mounted - the smaller one has only one tray). Looking at the back, there should be three connectors across the top (I think these connectors are always there, even if they are not used internally). The right-most connector (looking from the back, I think) should be the SCSI port; it is a 50-way amphenol connector. This is the same as the conectors on a TK50Z. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Mon Dec 3 04:54:58 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021919@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> If the TK50 is terminated and the SCSI IDs are correct (tape drives historically were ID5) and it's not seen at the console then something's broken :) There should be a DIL switch on the back of the unit to set the ID if I'm remembering right, and if you've got a stock MV3100 the internal disks will probably be ID3 (system disk) and ID0 or 1 (data). What SCSI cable are you using? To check that the drive itself is OK you can always take it out of its expansion box, whip the cover off the VAX and connect directly to the internal bus next to the 2 disks. HTH > -----Original Message----- > From: SP [mailto:spedraja@ono.com] > Sent: 02 December 2001 21:16 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop > > > Hello. I have one problem I'd like somebody could > help me to solve. I have one TK50-GA external > SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop. > The Microvax can't detect the TK50. This tape unit > works perfectly. I have the cover of it retired, and > I have located the ribbon that aid to select the > SCSI address of the unit. The Microvax > haven't attached any other external unit, and > internally have two disks. > > How can I know if the unit is attached ? > The SHOW DEVICES in the boot ROM don't says > nothing. > > Greetings > > Sergio > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 3 07:22:14 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <001401c17bfd$8723d7a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> The problem may be that it's not a SCSI TK50 but the SASI interfaced TK50 for the MV2000. The difference is the firmware on the SCSI/SASI interface card. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Michael Schneider To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, December 03, 2001 3:10 AM Subject: Re: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop >Some more datapoints, please: > >- Do you have a TK50 or a TK50Z (I think the "Z" is the indication that >it is indeed the real SCSI variant)? Does it have an SCSI-ID-switch on >the back? >- What model is your '3100? Just plain "MicroVAX3100", or is there some >M-Number (like "M40")? >- What *does* "SHOW DEV" say? >- Do you have one or two SCSI-Busses? Or, maybe easier to answer: Does >the machine have a floppy drive installed? >- Does one (or both) of the internal disks "disappear" whenever you plug >in the TK50? > >Anyway, usually problems with SCSI-Devices are due to either termination >problems, bad cables or conflicting SCSI-ID's. > >regards > >ms > > >On Sun, 2001-12-02 at 22:15, SP wrote: >> Hello. I have one problem I'd like somebody could >> help me to solve. I have one TK50-GA external >> SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop. >> The Microvax can't detect the TK50. This tape unit >> works perfectly. I have the cover of it retired, and >> I have located the ribbon that aid to select the >> SCSI address of the unit. The Microvax >> haven't attached any other external unit, and >> internally have two disks. >> >> How can I know if the unit is attached ? >> The SHOW DEVICES in the boot ROM don't says >> nothing. >> >> Greetings >> >> Sergio >> >> >> >> >> >> >-- >Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de >Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de > > People disagree with me. I just ignore them. > (Linus Torvalds) > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 3 07:31:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <002401c17bfe$d6a483a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Carlini, Antonio >The VAXstation 3100s pretty much all have a single >SCSI connector (the small size - HD68 is what I've >seen it called in the past). I have them with HD68 (VS3100/m76) and standard Amphenol 50 (Vaxserver3100m10e and Microvax3100/m10E). >The MicroVAX 3100 series machines are all >(IIRC) in one of two similar boxes - the >only difference being the height (the larger >one has two trays on to which hard drives >may be mounted - the smaller one has >only one tray). Looking at the back, The smaller can mount up to three drives internally and one externally accessable media (floppy, TK70 or Cdrom). Then there is the BA42 storage box which is the same siaze as a basic 3100 bit hold two 5.25" full height drives typically RZ55 or RZ56. I have a few of these. The connector is Cannon/amphenol 50 pin. Allison From spedraja at ono.com Mon Dec 3 08:57:31 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <002101c17c0a$d5df8f80$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> >> The machine has two scsi buses or ar least two SCSI connectors back, >> one large and another of lightly minor size. > >I cannot think of *any* MicroVAX or VAXstation that >has two SCSI connectors of *different* sizes. It has two connectors of Centronics type. One is a large Centronics type connector, over the three MMJ connectors. The other one is, seeing the CPU in its back, at the LEFT, covered by one semiespheric cover. This is a "short" Centronics connector. I have the TK50 connected actually to the large Centronics connector because is the same than the manufactured with the TK50. But this don't work, at least by now. I have no cable to connect the TK50Z-GA to the short Centronics connector. The central unit only put "Microvax 3100" in the front. Is a desktop, not a tower. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From spedraja at ono.com Mon Dec 3 09:02:29 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <002601c17c0b$87ce1900$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> >If the TK50 is terminated and the SCSI IDs are correct (tape drives >historically were ID5) and it's not seen at the console then something's >broken :) There should be a DIL switch on the back of the unit to set the ID Yes, it's in the back. I've tried all the adresses. >if I'm remembering right, and if you've got a stock MV3100 the internal >disks will probably be ID3 (system disk) and ID0 or 1 (data). >What SCSI cable are you using? One large Centronics SCSI to one large Centronics SCSI (I speak about the connectors in both extremes of cable). >To check that the drive itself is OK you can always take it out of its >expansion box, whip the cover off the VAX and connect directly to the >internal bus next to the 2 disks. I was think about it, but I should like to do something less "busy" ;-) Thanks and Greetings Sergio From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Dec 3 11:29:48 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: <002601c17c0b$87ce1900$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092654.00a256e0@www.mcmanis.com> Well there is only one size of Centronics SCSI connector, and its 50 pin. You probably have the multiport serial option card which is a smaller (36) pin SCSI connector that connects to a cable that splits it out into 4 serial ports. The external SCSI is an option on this system, its possible you don't have it. When you boot you do a test 50 and it shows two scsi busses? If not then you need to "tap in" to the internal bus to get the TK50 on line. --Chuck At 04:02 PM 12/3/01 +0100, you wrote: > >If the TK50 is terminated and the SCSI IDs are correct (tape drives > >historically were ID5) and it's not seen at the console then something's > >broken :) There should be a DIL switch on the back of the unit to set the >ID > > >Yes, it's in the back. I've tried all the adresses. > > >if I'm remembering right, and if you've got a stock MV3100 the internal > >disks will probably be ID3 (system disk) and ID0 or 1 (data). > >What SCSI cable are you using? > >One large Centronics SCSI to one large Centronics SCSI (I speak about >the connectors in both extremes of cable). > > >To check that the drive itself is OK you can always take it out of its > >expansion box, whip the cover off the VAX and connect directly to the > >internal bus next to the 2 disks. > > >I was think about it, but I should like to do something less "busy" ;-) > >Thanks and Greetings > >Sergio From jrice at texoma.net Mon Dec 3 07:44:06 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: O.T. S. ring is at it again Message-ID: <3C0B81A6.10505@texoma.net> I keep getting replies to my own posts from S. ring containing a virus. From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Dec 3 07:51:33 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E bulbs Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011203075133.00972560@ubanproductions.com> I get replacement bulbs for my PDP11 at the local electronics store. If you know the voltage, all you have to do is match the base. You may also be able to find them at: http://www.digikey.com --tom At 10:19 PM 12/2/01 -0800, you wrote: >I'm making progress on the PDP-8/E I got this last week. The powersupply >checks out once the Front Panel is plugged in, and thanks to all the spare >lightbulbs I've got all the burnt out bulbs replaced. Unfortunatly I'm now >down to two spares which my -8/m could probably use, the -8/e had nearly >half it's bulbs out. This brings up the question, how hard is it to get >replacement bulbs? > > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From stuart at zen.co.uk Mon Dec 3 08:06:46 2001 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stuart Birchall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Free PDP 11/23 and disk drive (UK) References: <3.0.5.32.20011203075133.00972560@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <00a001c17c03$be7a8090$570917d4@office.zen.co.uk> Populated and once operational (still should be) PDP 11/23 CPU, and a disk drive. Free collection, northwest UK. Thanks. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 3 12:05:31 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E bulbs In-Reply-To: <15371.7798.224477.85707@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: PDP-8/E bulbs (Zane H. Healy) Message-ID: > I thought all 8/M systems had LED front panels. At least every one >I've seen has. You know, now that I think about it, I believe you're right. I guess that goes to show how long it's been since I've touched my -8/m! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Dec 3 08:40:46 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Kalpana Etherswitch docs/firmware? In-Reply-To: <20011122123402.A13989@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 12:34:02PM -0600 References: <20011122123402.A13989@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20011203084046.B6871403@uiuc.edu> I believe That they became the Cisco 3000 line of 10-mbit switches. From what I know of them, they're virtually identical to the Kalpana switch that Cisco bought the company get, so the Cisco docs might help if you can find them... Bill Bradford said: > They got bought by Cisco, which seems to have buried the product. > > Anybody got docs/firmware for either a Kalpana Etherswitch EPS-1500 > or a 2015-RS? > > Thanks. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011203/f990242e/attachment.bin From spedraja at ono.com Mon Dec 3 08:49:14 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Free PDP 11/23 and disk drive (UK) Message-ID: <001801c17c09$ad4c6760$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hello, Stuart. Impossible shipping to Santander, Spain ? (by Mail or Transport Agency). Thanks and Greetings Sergio -----Mensaje original----- De: Stuart Birchall Para: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Fecha: lunes, 03 de diciembre de 2001 15:27 Asunto: Free PDP 11/23 and disk drive (UK) >Populated and once operational (still should be) PDP 11/23 CPU, and a disk >drive. >Free collection, northwest UK. >Thanks. > > From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Dec 3 08:59:58 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: ; from tothwolf@concentric.net on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:35:36PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011203085958.C6871403@uiuc.edu> Excellent idea! I've been contemplating using an old IRIS Crimson server as a end table... it's just about the same size as a large mini-fridge :-) Tothwolf said: > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > I was going to mention that but last discussion about PS/2 towers as bed > > tables and PDP's for living room stuff got nasty so I thought I'd hold that > > thought :-) > > Even tho I don't think they are considered "classics" quite yet...I've > thought about using some of my old SGI 4D "single tower" boxes as tables > in the den...Only hard part is hiding their huge 20A power cables if I > want to keep using them :) > > -Toth - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011203/f2e43f74/attachment.bin From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 09:18:20 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:34 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF0E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > I use a combination of RayGun and Bias Peak on a Echo Products Darla24 > soundcard. I've dedicated my old PowerMac 8500/180 to this, though > hopefully one of these days I'll be able to move it to a > souped up 9500 or > 9600. > There are simular solutions for Windows based PC's. For windows, centrillium (I doubt that's the proper spelling) software's "cool edit" is a decent editor, with (IIRC) a downloadable demo. Nothing too fancy, but it will probably "transfer ... from cassette" with no problem. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 10:06:18 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF10@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Carlos Murillo [mailto:cmurillo@emtelsa.multi.net.co] > Get a good cassette deck; I hope that your tapes were recorded > using Dolby C, or at least B. In either case, the high > freq response is already lost, but during playback/recording, > you might actually null out some high frq noise... As long as we're hypothetically copying hard to find tapes, and willing to shell out for hardware, you might also consider a recording device that was designed for the task. It seems to me that one can get a decent digital multitracking device for the cost of a decent multitracking software package these days ;) (I may be exaggerating here... but they're cheap) For instance, I've seen a new unit -- a Boss BR-532 -- which records on "smartmedia" (4-track), and lists around $400 (I think). I hear that the 128M cards, which are said to hold 90 minutes of audio run about $45. Obviously this uses some compression, and you wouldn't get the best quality, but it would provide an easy way of mixing some of the hiss out and adding some mastering effects if you'd like. This might also be problematic for recording a cassette tape since I think it only has one channel in. (You could do it, though) I wouldn't use this for doing original recording personally, but for re-mastering a cassette, or other light-duty stuff, it may be just the ticket. I personally have a Fostex VF08, which I paid about $480 for from audiolines.com, but which lists around $599. It's a slightly more heavy solution, and has 5GB or so of disk in it. No compression, sound records at 44.1khz 16-bit. The unit also has 20-bit ADC and 24-bit DAC with 64/128x oversampling respectively. It's an 8-track unit with 2 channels in. I can tell you from experience that this machine could probably make "smashing pumpkins" sound good. (My opinion, of course... and don't get me started on "smashing pumpkins.") (These are mostly from memory, so I might be wrong on some of this... look it up) At any rate, one could record, mix, and master the cassette on a similar unit, and transfer the resulting digital audio to your computer through the SPDIF digital out. Wow, that was tangential. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 09:25:23 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Looking for CPT 9000 word processor Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF0F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@vintage.org] > I am looking for a CPT 9000 word processor, circa 1988. It has a page > display and is based on an Intel 80286. I have one, but I think I'm keeping it, at least for now. They're interesting machines. The full-page white-mono EGA graphics setup is a nice touch. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Dec 3 09:40:02 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: B+H Iris board sets Message-ID: Free for postage/shipping (or pickup in Chicago): 4 - B+H Iris (ca. 1986-88) 2-slot/3-board sets: CPU Board w/TMX34010 32-bit Graphis System Processor, 32 chips D41264-15 Video RAM; SCSI (?) board; Parallel Printer/Scanner board. 2 sets are complete, 1 is missing the TMX chip, 1 is missing the TMX and a Bt454KPJ170 chip. 1 copy Texas Instruments TMS34010 User's Guide. Board sets weigh 2 lb 3 oz each. email me off-list at Robert_Feldman@jdedwards.com. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 3 09:58:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Sun Roadrunner Message-ID: Hey people. I was wondering if anyone here were familiar with the internals of the Sun Roadrunner (386i). Specifically, I am looking for someone who can tell me exactly what is different between a Roadrunner and a PC. Depending on how difficult it will be, I might try to build a modern Roadrunner from new commodity components. I have an actual 386i/25, and a 486i for compatibility testing. Peace... Sridha From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Dec 3 10:16:41 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Sun Roadrunner Message-ID: <11d.85b0d8a.293cff69@aol.com> In a message dated 12/3/01 11:08:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, vance@ikickass.org writes: > Hey people. I was wondering if anyone here were familiar with the > internals of the Sun Roadrunner (386i). Specifically, I am looking for > someone who can tell me exactly what is different between a Roadrunner and > a PC. Depending on how difficult it will be, I might try to build a > modern Roadrunner from new commodity components. I have an actual > 386i/25, and a 486i for compatibility testing. > > Peace... Sridha > > You have a 486i? Wow! I have a 386i, but can't really get it working *yet* because it has a bad prom.. -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Dec 3 10:00:59 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Ebay madness -- Kaypro II for $515 References: <01120222300300.01447@ws1> <008b01c17bc7$4857b360$3934cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C0BA1BB.FF521228@ccp.com> "Wayne M. Smith" wrote: > > Two guys who have bid up a Kaypro II to $515 on eBay . . . and there's > still 13 hours left. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1301312698 > > Both joined eBay during the past few weeks, which may explain it. One > of them is currently high bidder on an Osborne 01 that is already over > $300. > > I'm going to get my "rare" "museum-grade" Kaypro 4 up for auction right > away! > > -W I guess it is true that some people have more money then brains. I have an idea, let's auction off shares of Enron and see what happens? the ever thrifty, Gary Hildebrand From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 3 10:04:55 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Ebay madness -- Kaypro II for $515 In-Reply-To: <008b01c17bc7$4857b360$3934cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: No, put up a Kaypro 1. Everyone knows that the lower the number, the older the machine! *snicker* :) g. On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > Two guys who have bid up a Kaypro II to $515 on eBay . . . and there's > still 13 hours left. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1301312698 > > Both joined eBay during the past few weeks, which may explain it. One > of them is currently high bidder on an Osborne 01 that is already over > $300. > > I'm going to get my "rare" "museum-grade" Kaypro 4 up for auction right > away! > > -W > > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 10:36:57 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Ebay madness -- Kaypro II for $515 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF12@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne M. Smith [mailto:wmsmith@earthlink.net] > Two guys who have bid up a Kaypro II to $515 on eBay . . . and there's > still 13 hours left. [snip] > I'm going to get my "rare" "museum-grade" Kaypro 4 up for > auction right > away! I suppose my $3 kaypro 2 was a good investment, then. Wonderful machine, btw -- built like a tank. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 10:17:23 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF11@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > Leaving Hitler out of a world history would be like leaving > IBM PC (5150) > out of a list of significant computers. I took the question a different way. As I interpreted it, the computers were supposed to be "significant" in terms of design. The IBM PC wasn't. It was pretty much all re-hash of something else. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 3 01:21:22 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF11@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3C0B27F2.5AED606C@jetnet.ab.ca> Christopher Smith wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > > > Leaving Hitler out of a world history would be like leaving > > IBM PC (5150) > > out of a list of significant computers. > > I took the question a different way. As I interpreted it, the computers > were supposed to be "significant" in terms of design. The IBM PC wasn't. > It was pretty much all re-hash of something else. > > Regards, > > Chris Well when I first saw a PC ( clone that is ) , I thought "WOW A real keyboard, good display ( Upper / Lower Case ) and dual floppies all in one box". 512K ram max sounded like a lot of memory too. Compared to the 8 bit toy market at the time Z80's,C64's,Coco's that was a lot of power. It was the small 16 bit addressing that killed the 8 bitters. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 12:15:31 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF16@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > Christopher Smith wrote: > > I took the question a different way. As I interpreted it, > the computers > > were supposed to be "significant" in terms of design. The > IBM PC wasn't. > > It was pretty much all re-hash of something else. > Well when I first saw a PC ( clone that is ) , I thought > "WOW A real keyboard, good display ( Upper / Lower Case ) > and dual floppies all in one box". 512K ram max sounded > like a lot of memory too. Compared to the 8 bit toy market > at the time Z80's,C64's,Coco's that was a lot of power. > It was the small 16 bit addressing that killed the 8 bitters. May have been unusual at the time. I doubt it was the first machine to have any of that. A VAX-11/750 with a vt-100, for instance, would have had all that less the dual-floppies and with a much higher maximum RAM limit ;) Seriously, though, some older CP/M boxes also had real keyboards, decent displays and dual floppies. (Some of which was optional, mind you... as were _any_ floppies on the PC, AFAIK, in that you bought them separately :) Also you could say that it was the first available 16-bit home computer (depending on your definition of 16-bit), but you'd be wrong... (Quick search says that several people believe this was the TI-99, actually, which also had a real keyboard, and could have had the dual floppies) Ultimately, the 32-bit systems were pretty close on its heels -- I have a timeline that places the PC in '82, and the Apple Lisa in '83. I don't know if this is correct... I have no idea how the peesee actually lasted as long as it has. There were several 32-bit systems on the market by 1984 or so (though, my personal favorite was done in '87 with the Acorn Archimedes). Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 10:41:18 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF13@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > > I saw a couple of MicroVax II's over the weekend and they look like > > good project machines. Does anyone in the Houston, TX area have any > > they want to part with? > > Never hurts to ask! > I'm in Houston and have a MircoVax II, but I don't really want to part > with it...I bought mine for a project machine a few years ago, but I > really don't know when I'll get around to getting it up and running. I'm not in the area. I do have an enclosure for a MicroVAX II, and some boards (CPU and some RAM) I believe I tested the CPU, and it's working. The RAM may not work with that specific CPU, and the enclosure has power-supply problems. (basically it's all left-overs from when I was trying to get parts for mine) I don't want to ship, though, since it may as well be a 3-foot-tall block of solid lead. Nice machines -- built like tanks ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Dec 3 11:22:57 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092229.00a49d50@www.mcmanis.com> I'm in Sunnyvale, and would part with one. --Chuck From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Dec 3 11:43:45 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3C0B6571.27551.861D5A@localhost> Hi Matt, Gee, I wonder where you saw those? :-) Now to finish getting one running. Need to play Empire. David On 3 Dec 2001, at 0:59, Matthew Sell wrote: > > Hello, > > > I saw a couple of MicroVax II's over the weekend and they look like > good project machines. Does anyone in the Houston, TX area have any > they want to part with? > > Never hurts to ask! > > > - Matt ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From mranalog at attbi.com Mon Dec 3 12:44:57 2001 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: FYI: AT HOME Message-ID: <3C0BC829.96A34FBA@attbi.com> Hi All, If anyone is expecting mail for an @HOME.com customer, you may have a small wait. @HOME shut down about midnight local time on Saturday. I was very lucky (I guess) because I was able to get back on the servers Sunday morning to change my account. I am no longer mranalog@home.com, I am now mranalog@attbi.com. AT&T says that some customers may be out of service for as much as 10 days. Of course, my service was back just long enough yesterday for me to resubscribe to to a few discussion lists and then it was out again. This morning sending mail seems fine but receiving mail is painfully slow. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Poulsbo, Washington Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Mon Dec 3 12:59:18 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: <002101c17c0a$d5df8f80$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> References: <002101c17c0a$d5df8f80$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Message-ID: <1007405959.7165.1.camel@silke> No, that does not soud correct. The external SCSI-Connector (if you have one) on a MV3100 is a rather small, 68-PIN-HD-like connector, comparable to modern SCSI-III connectors. You might have one of those serial multiport cards.. You're TK50 is the "right" one, though... ms On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 15:57, SP wrote: > > >> The machine has two scsi buses or ar least two SCSI connectors back, > >> one large and another of lightly minor size. > > > >I cannot think of *any* MicroVAX or VAXstation that > >has two SCSI connectors of *different* sizes. > > > It has two connectors of Centronics type. One is a > large Centronics type connector, over the three > MMJ connectors. > > > The other one is, seeing the CPU in its back, at > the LEFT, covered by one semiespheric cover. > This is a "short" Centronics connector. > > I have the TK50 connected actually to the large > Centronics connector because is the same than > the manufactured with the TK50. But this don't work, > at least by now. I have no cable to connect the > TK50Z-GA to the short Centronics connector. > > The central unit only put "Microvax 3100" in the front. > Is a desktop, not a tower. > > Thanks and Greetings > > Sergio > > > > > > > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Dec 3 13:07:50 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart (A badtrans Virus ????) References: <20011203085958.C6871403@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <01b001c17c2d$ce1f12c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I was NOT really sure about this email............ Is it a w32@badtrans.b/mm wormvirus or a genuine mail with attached emails????? 1) There was nothing in the body of the mail itself 2) I've had a few mails containing almost the same kinda attachments the last week that did contain the offending virus. 3) Looking into the source made me feel secure! OK! ------- Kind Request ---------------------------------- So please, if anybody on the list is sending mail with an attachment, mention it and it's purpose in the bodytext -------------------------------------------------------- I've had to remove "the bastard" from a computer of a friend and it took me a couple of hours to clean things up. (Windooooz ME !@&^^###Archg!!!!) Thanx Sipke de Wal "So, You are paranoid?...... Well, uhhhh are you paranoid enough!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ps: You'll find a "FixBtrans.exe" removal-tool in the antivirus section of my site (symantec version). In case anybody needs it. (Original attachments removed!) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Wright To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: Re: Martha Stewart From matt at knm.org.uk Mon Dec 3 13:11:10 2001 From: matt at knm.org.uk (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Free PDP 11/23 and disk drive (UK) In-Reply-To: <00a001c17c03$be7a8090$570917d4@office.zen.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi, > Populated and once operational (still should be) PDP 11/23 CPU, and a disk > drive. > Free collection, northwest UK. Still there? Where abouts are you? (Manchester/Warrington here) I don't know much about PDP/11's - this is Qbus based right? (I have an empty BA23 here) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Dec 3 13:12:41 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: Because it had "IBM" on the front, which gave it validity in the business world. Could you imagine some mid-level/upper-level executive with an Apple II on his desk? Being first, or being the best, does not guarantee success. -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Smith [mailto:csmith@amdocs.com] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:16 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: History of Computing exam question I have no idea how the peesee actually lasted as long as it has. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 3 13:21:02 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: <15371.42323.864664.408545@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <001b01c17bfd$d129bb80$6b7b7b7b@ajp> <15371.42323.864664.408545@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <01Dec3.153348est.119100@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > Yup, it's sequentially accessed. At least one company still sells & >supports it, though I don't know if they're actually producing it at >this point.. It's a really neat technology. It moves the magnetic >domains around "tracks" in (if memory serves) a crystalline garnet >substrate. These domains can be set to "0" or "1" and are read by >moving them past a detector. At one point, wasn't TI a large supplier of bubble memory? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 3 13:59:55 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: <15371.42323.864664.408545@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: FLUKE? (Allison) Message-ID: <3C0B855B.11900.19B7FF52@localhost> I have a program by Charles Martin called CMFiler which I have used for years and consider indispensable for exploring Doze machines. It is somewhat like NC but with many more features and has worked (in a dos window) thru all the MS upgrades(?) up to Win 98 at least. It would occasionally give a message "bubble-sorting files" when I accessed a drive. Does this simply mean sequentially ordering ? Lawrence > On December 3, Allison wrote: > > It's not RAM per se. > > > > It's basically a disk like structure, the difference is rather than rotate the > > media they move the magnetic domains around. I have a few 128kbyte (1Mbit) > > bubbles I use still. > > Yup, it's sequentially accessed. At least one company still sells & > supports it, though I don't know if they're actually producing it at > this point.. It's a really neat technology. It moves the magnetic > domains around "tracks" in (if memory serves) a crystalline garnet > substrate. These domains can be set to "0" or "1" and are read by > moving them past a detector. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 3 14:25:48 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: Re: FLUKE? (Lawrence Walker) References: <3C0B855B.11900.19B7FF52@localhost> Message-ID: <15371.57292.886150.603102@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 3, Lawrence Walker wrote: > I have a program by Charles Martin called CMFiler which I have used for > years and consider indispensable for exploring Doze machines. It is > somewhat like NC but with many more features and has worked (in a dos > window) thru all the MS upgrades(?) up to Win 98 at least. > It would occasionally give a message "bubble-sorting files" when I accessed > a drive. Does this simply mean sequentially ordering ? The "bubble sort" is a classic sorting algorithm. That's probably the algorithm the programmer used to sort the list of files. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Dec 3 13:31:26 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Microchannel ethernet NIC Message-ID: >Anybody got one (see subject) they don't want? Do you want BNC, RJ45, or AUI? I have one that is BNC and AUI, and one that is RJ45 and BNC, and one that I think is ethernet that is BNC only. The BNC only one is the only one NOT in use, the others are in machines. I can part with one, but it will mean swapping the machine off the network, so I can't part with it for nothing. If you have good Mac or Apple stuff I can consider a trade, otherwise I can sell it to you (I am not sure what a fair price is, but it will cost me about $25 to deal with replacing it and the machine it comes from). -chris From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 3 13:38:23 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Microchannel ethernet NIC In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF18@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: I have 10Mbps cards I can get rid of real cheap, and 100Mbps cards I need money for. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > Anybody got one (see subject) they don't want? > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 14:36:57 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Microchannel ethernet NIC Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF1B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Probably RJ45. It is for a friend's machine, though, so I'll have to check. I have gotten an offer of an RJ45 board via email, though, if that's the case. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] > >Anybody got one (see subject) they don't want? > Do you want BNC, RJ45, or AUI? > I have one that is BNC and AUI, and one that is RJ45 and BNC, and one > that I think is ethernet that is BNC only. From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Dec 3 13:46:43 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Ebay madness -- Kaypro II for $515 Message-ID: <181.120b54.293d30a3@aol.com> I hope this madness doesn't start a trend - where would that leave the serious enthusiast ? It does beg the question - might it be worth more with "purple" ceramic packages ? ;-) Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011203/74cd6729/attachment.html From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 3 13:59:55 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Ebay madness -- Kaypro II for $515 In-Reply-To: <008b01c17bc7$4857b360$3934cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C0B855B.20042.19B7FEDF@localhost> Well one positive thing is that the Kaypro is going for more than the Osborne . It was generally acknowledged that it was a much better machine, but the aura of Adam Osborne's persona has generally made the Osborne more popular to collectors. The description mentions the Perfect Software package but it isn't included in the package. I have a pristine set of this, put out by Pied Piper. In the manuals it brags about being written in C and therefore easily transportable to other platforms. There is also some stuff in the startup procedures about the Dos prompt meaning any of the Dos systems such as CP/M, MSDOS, and CPM/86. One of the 4 disks I have is a CP/M system disk and I seem to remember that the start-up asked what system you were using. There are 2 Perfect program disks and a Workdisk. Were the program disks simply some sort of overlay that could be used if you had the relevant system disk or was it like the Commodore/Atari programs in which you had system specific disks ? ISTR that my Uniform program could read CP/M files rather than simply reformatting them like Teledisk. My Kaypros and CP/M machines are still on the unpacking list waiting for a CP/M corner to be set up so I can't explore it at this time. Also the Kaypros Achilles heel, the disk drive system, was giving me problems. Lawrence > Two guys who have bid up a Kaypro II to $515 on eBay . . . and there's > still 13 hours left. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1301312698 > > Both joined eBay during the past few weeks, which may explain it. One > of them is currently high bidder on an Osborne 01 that is already over > $300. > > I'm going to get my "rare" "museum-grade" Kaypro 4 up for auction right > away! > > -W > > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Mon Dec 3 14:21:15 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: <1007405959.7165.1.camel@silke> Message-ID: Hi, > No, that does not soud correct. > The external SCSI-Connector (if you have one) on a MV3100 is a rather > small, 68-PIN-HD-like connector, comparable to modern SCSI-III > connectors. > > You might have one of those serial multiport cards.. > You're TK50 is the "right" one, though... Just my 2p's worth, but, my MV3100/m10e has a 50 pin centronics SCSI connector - it's hooked into the scsi bus, I can see that by looking at it - the cable connecting it has my 2nd internal HDD attached :&) I also have the serial port option, which is a 37pin centronics. (Oh, what's the 50 pin HD-DB type connector? line-printer?) -- Matt --- PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 3 14:38:21 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... -dq From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 14:42:24 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? Message-ID: Why is it that anytime anyone asks: "Does anyone in my small geographical area have a 'foo' they want to get rid of?" there is invariably a slew of "I have one, but don't want to get rid of it" or "I have one I want to get rid of, but not in your area, and not willing to ship" messages? If you're not in the area, or you don't want to get rid of it, why reply? I mean it's gotta be annoying to the original poster to hear of others in the area, with the "foo" he needs, but who don't want to get rid of it. It's not bad that they have the "foo", but it seems like the reply is rubbing his face in it.... Rich B. From ip500 at home.com Mon Dec 3 14:45:37 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: FYI: AT HOME References: <3C0BC829.96A34FBA@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3C0BE471.ADE02E42@home.com> HUH ??? I know they were having problems and the bankruptcy judge gave them the option to shut down .. but here I am, still on home.com, and still typing away. I assume Cox Cable [and I should have thought AT&T] cut a deal with them to stay online. I did notice the mail server was VERY slow on Sunday, but otherwise it's cranking right along. Webspace is still available and usable on their server. Craig Doug Coward wrote: > > Hi All, > If anyone is expecting mail for an @HOME.com > customer, you may have a small wait. > > @HOME shut down about midnight local time on > Saturday. I was very lucky (I guess) because > I was able to get back on the servers Sunday > morning to change my account. > > I am no longer mranalog@home.com, I am now > mranalog@attbi.com. > > AT&T says that some customers may be out of > service for as much as 10 days. > > Of course, my service was back just long > enough yesterday for me to resubscribe to > to a few discussion lists and then it was > out again. This morning sending mail seems > fine but receiving mail is painfully slow. > Regards, > --Doug > ========================================= > Doug Coward > Poulsbo, Washington > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 3 15:10:48 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Rich Beaudry wrote: > Rant eh? I could do that, but I don't think it would be too useful to anyone here ;P > Why is it that anytime anyone asks: "Does anyone in my small geographical > area have a 'foo' they want to get rid of?" there is invariably a slew of "I > have one, but don't want to get rid of it" or "I have one I want to get rid > of, but not in your area, and not willing to ship" messages? > > If you're not in the area, or you don't want to get rid of it, why reply? As for *my* reply to the thread, I might eventually be willing to part with my BA123, but I really don't think I want to right now. Currently there is no way to get to it anyway, since it is buried under 8ft. of other computer stuff. Now, to change the subject of this thread, does anyone know of any "classic computer" user groups in the Houston area? -Toth From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Dec 3 15:33:27 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? Message-ID: >I mean it's gotta be annoying to the original poster to hear of others in >the area, with the "foo" he needs, but who don't want to get rid of it. >It's not bad that they have the "foo", but it seems like the reply is >rubbing his face in it.... Hey, I have a ton of extra foo, and I am willing to ship it, even international! LOL... ok, it is one of those days, I am in one of those moods... fear not, I understand your point, and I have to agree... getting your face rubbed in foo is no fun! :-) -chris From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 3 14:41:58 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E bulbs In-Reply-To: Tom Uban "PDP-8/E bulbs" (Dec 3, 7:51) References: <3.0.5.32.20011203075133.00972560@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <10112032041.ZM5422@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 3, 7:51, Tom Uban wrote: > I get replacement bulbs for my PDP11 at the local electronics store. If > you know the voltage, all you have to do is match the base. You may also > be able to find them at: http://www.digikey.com Hmm, I'd not be too sure about that. I believe the correct bulbs are 12V or perhaps 14V, T1-3/4 bi-pin, 0.04A (that's 40mA). I've seen 14V 80mA bulbs in a few places, but I'm not sure if they would be "safe" in the panel - they'd draw twice the current and I'm not sure if the driving transistors are rated for that. Anyone know? (I have a panel, but not a print set). If it's any help, I found some of the proper bulbs for my -8/E recently, and they are marked "OSHINO-1 12-09169" or "PL10161 1209169". I think the 12-09169 may be the DEC part number. On test, they draw between 30mA and 35mA at 12V, and between about 35mA and 40mA at 14V. The ones I've found in the Farnell catalogue (cat no 329-216) seem to be made by EBT Technologies, part no 7382, and they're 14V, 80mA, 1.12W, 3.8 lumens, nominal life 15000 hours, priced around 50p (about 72 cents) depending on quantity. I found the same bulbs slightly cheaper in the CPC catalogue, for those of us in the UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Dec 3 15:07:30 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066271@exc-reo1> >It has two connectors of Centronics type. One is a >large Centronics type connector, over the three >MMJ connectors. >The other one is, seeing the CPU in its back, at >the LEFT, covered by one semiespheric cover. >This is a "short" Centronics connector. I have a DV-31BTB-A which I know is a MicroVAX 3100 Model 20. Yours, according to the Systems & Options Catalogue I have, is a MicroVAX 3100 Model 10. On the back of mine there is (looking at the back): at the top middle: a DB37 labelled B2 (this is a socket with 37 pins) (I don't think this is available on the Model 10) in the middle row (from left to right) a connector labelled (4-11), this is for an asynch card (DSH32 I think) This is the same "style" as the SCSI connector (i.e., no pins) but is smaller. It is *NOT* a SCSI connector. another DB37 labelled DB37 this is over and slightly to the left of the 3 MMJ connectors. a final connector on the right, labelled with a diamond and a horizontal line through the right hand point. This is the SCSI connector. This connector is the only one that is identical to the connectors on the TK50Z. This is over the printer connector. Having said, if you have the right SCSI cable (i.e. the same connector at both ends) then I don't see how you can possibly have connected to the wrong place. (And it sounds like you have used the RIGHT hand connection and just are unsure what the other one is). BTW: The TK50Z box has two SCSI connections. It does not matter which one you use, but you *must* put a terminator on the other one if you expect the MicroVAX to see the tape drive. I've found a manual with pictures of the connectors. I can scan some pages on Wednesday and email them to you directly if necessary. So a few checks: -- are you using the correct (RIGHT hand) connector? -- Is the unused connector on the TK50Z filled by a terminator? -- What ID is the TK50Z set to? (Avoid 6 & 7 ... the CPU uses one of those ... I forget exactly which because it varied from system to system). -- Avoid any ID used by the existing drives, SHOW DEVICE will list these. The external SCSI bus may well be independent of the internal bus, in which case it will not matter, but again I cannot remember for this system. -- If it still does not work, what to the power up tests say? The error code (if any) should help to track this down. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Mon Dec 3 15:12:15 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1007413936.8892.7.camel@silke> So, i've learned something today 8-) All my 3100's (ok, i have only 3) have that crappy small 68pin connector that wants this special cable that costs an arm and a leg. The 50pin has 3 rows, right? Then it's the "B1 Synchronous Port 1", whatever this may be... ms On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 21:21, Matt London wrote: > Hi, > > > No, that does not soud correct. > > The external SCSI-Connector (if you have one) on a MV3100 is a rather > > small, 68-PIN-HD-like connector, comparable to modern SCSI-III > > connectors. > > > > You might have one of those serial multiport cards.. > > You're TK50 is the "right" one, though... > > Just my 2p's worth, but, my MV3100/m10e has a 50 pin centronics SCSI > connector - it's hooked into the scsi bus, I can see that by looking at it > - the cable connecting it has my 2nd internal HDD attached :&) > > I also have the serial port option, which is a 37pin centronics. > > (Oh, what's the 50 pin HD-DB type connector? line-printer?) > > -- Matt > > --- > PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F > PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Dec 3 15:43:42 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066274@exc-reo1> > Michael Schneider wrote: > >So, i've learned something today 8-) > >All my 3100's (ok, i have only 3) have that crappy small 68pin connector >that wants this special cable that costs an arm and a leg. Either you've learned that you have a VAXstation 3100 or you have a @@LOOK@@ **RARE!!!** auction just waiting for ebay :-) >The 50pin has 3 rows, right? Then it's the "B1 Synchronous Port 1", >whatever this may be... I *knew* I shouldn't have hit Send so quickly :-) Yes, it is 50-pin and not 37. Normally this would be an understandable slip up, but having supported DEC synch cards for more than one hand's worth of years I cannot imagine how I let that one slip by. I'll just go and find a piece of wall to hammer my head against :-) Antonio From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 15:09:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: FLUKE? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF1F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > The "bubble sort" is a classic sorting algorithm. That's probably > the algorithm the programmer used to sort the list of files. By way of description Standish says in "Data Structure Techniques:" "Let A[1:n] be an array of n numbers. ... Make repeated sweeps over the array A[1:n] from left to right. Upon detecting any adjacent pair of numbers A[i] and A[i+1] not in proper order, exchange them A[i] <-> A[i + 1]. When a pass is completed with no exchanges having been made, the process terminates. " I believe it's called bubble sort because the lesser numerical values tend to "bubble up" to the top of the array. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 3 15:13:16 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Microchannel ethernet NIC In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF18@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: If we didn't want them the trash man would have them :-) I have a couple AUI/BNC types (I think) that I gave like $4 or $5 for a year ago and mailing would be around $3.50 to $4 I imagine. I also have an excess Digital AUI to BNC transponder for $5 if anyone has a need for it. It's a box about 3x3x1 that attaches to an AUI port and gives you BNC 10base2. Also have a package of 10base2 tees on ebay under my "rhblake" username right now. I have some new factory made BNC coax cables that I haven't posted, still in their bags as well. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith -> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:22 PM -> To: Classiccmp (E-mail) -> Subject: Microchannel ethernet NIC -> -> -> Anybody got one (see subject) they don't want? -> -> Regards, -> -> Chris -> -> Christopher Smith, Perl Developer -> Amdocs - Champaign, IL -> -> /usr/bin/perl -e ' -> print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); -> ' -> -> From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 15:17:43 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF20@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: [snip] > This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... That is insane. $50.00 "Reserve not yet met..." :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 3 15:25:49 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: More E-Bay Insanity? (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15371.60893.575395.228687@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 3, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 > > This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... Value is in the eye of the beholder, man. Why is it automatically "insane" when someone else views omething as being more valuable than we do? The resale value of the stuff we hack on is going up, and we have to learn to deal with it. It has been for some time. People are buying it at these prices, and it's not just one or two people. Let them spend their money...if they're happy with their purchase, what's wrong with it? Further, one mustn't lose sight of the fact that different things are more readily available in different geographic areas than in others. Just because there are fifty AppleIIs at the corner yard sale in your neighborhood doesn't mean there are fifty of them at EVERY corner yard sale. As a case in point...I'm no newcomer to this field; I've been doing pdp8/pdp11/vax stuff for a solid fifteen years. My first real system was a pdp11/34 which I sold about ten years ago, and have regretted it every since. I've wanted another one for several years, and had been looking for one in earnest in the Washington DC area for a solid three years...never managed to get one, and believe me, I know where to look. I finally bought one locally for about $400, indirectly from a surplus dealer who was sharking on the "antique computer craze" trying to make a ton of money on it. I'm sure he got it for free, and he laughed all the way to the bank. However, I'm VERY happy to have it, and I love the machine. If I hadn't paid that $400, I wouldn't have one. They're simply unobtainium in the DC area. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 3 15:43:29 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: Re: More E-Bay Insanity? (Dave McGuire) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <15371.60893.575395.228687@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15371.61953.34936.495997@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 3, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 > > > > This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... > > Value is in the eye of the beholder, man. Why is it automatically > "insane" when someone else views omething as being more valuable than > we do? But [replying to my own message] I do feel compelled to state that $50 for a 5.25" head cleaning kit is utterly ridiculous... ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Dec 3 16:10:11 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3C0BF843.389635A4@ccp.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 > > This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... > > -dq I noticed that in the fine print, the reserve ha not yet been met, and the price was at $50. so far, no one has bid on it (wonder why?) Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 3 16:33:55 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Methinks the seller is a complete frigging idiot and needs to be informed of this fact. I'll sell him a q-tip on a stick and a bottle of rubbing alcohol for $45. g. On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 > > This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... > > -dq > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 15:28:02 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:35 2005 Subject: Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available ? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF21@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Beaudry [mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com] > If you're not in the area, or you don't want to get rid of > it, why reply? If you're not in the area, then it's because somebody else who wants one might be closer to you. Would you not read similar messages if you were looking for the same item (not necessarily in the same area)? If you have one but don't want to get rid of it, then obviously you've already gone through the process of acquiring said piece of hardware and may be able to offer helpful advice. (Or not... :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 3 04:29:07 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Off-Topic:RANT References: Message-ID: <3C0B53F3.519B1412@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Beaudry wrote: > > > Rich B. You could add "Did you get virus X today" is my rant. BTW any body have a low cost terminal in WESTERN Canada for sale? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 3 15:50:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: <3C0B855B.11900.19B7FF52@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Dec 3, 1 01:59:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011203/54ebe0eb/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 3 17:23:03 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Bubble sorts have their place (was: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > 'Bubble Sort' has nothing to do with bubble memory. Bubble sort is a > well-known, very poor, sorting algorithm -- so poor that one book I have > contains the quote (from memory) 'If you know what a bubble sort is, wipe > it from your mind. If you don't, make a point of never finding out' :-) Then that author is an idiot! There are, indeed, MANY situations where a bubble sort is the WRONG one to choose, and therefore would be bad. And, admittedly more situations where it is the WRONG choice than situations where it is the RIGHT choice. BUT, there are a few situations where a bubble sort is significantly superior to all of the "better" sort algorithms. 1) situations of N elements to be sorted, to be presented/displayed R at a time. For example: the sort that e-bay does. A bubble sort (often RIGHT TO LEFT) can select the first R items in a maximum of R passes. Then WHILE you are looking at the first R "5.25 head cleaning" kits, it can be sorting the next R or more. or, with a bibliographic database, such as a library OPAC (Online Public Access Catalog), it can present the first R elements, and sort the rest while you are still absorbing the initial result set. Other, "better" sort algorithms will sort the entire database MUCH faster, but can't display the first R items until AFTER finishing sorting the entire database. 2) taking advantage of existing order. A "better" sort, such as Shell/Metzner, takes the same amount of work to sort regardless of whether the data is a little out of order, or totally random. (BTW, computer Science profs typically are incapable of understanding that not all data to be sorted is completely random, and they base everything that they teach on the premise that the data to be sorted is completely random.) But sometimes there is a need to "re-sort" data that was once in order, but has had additions, changes, or corruptions that have resulted in only part of it being out of order. For example, property records that are alphabetically sorted, but need to be resorted because SOME of the "Owner name" fields have been changed due to transfers. Or, sometimes there is data that is sorted by one field, and needs to be sorted by another field that has a partial correlation with the prior sort field. For example, a DMV file that was sorted by age, but now needs to be sorted by how long somebody has had a driver's license. A bubble sort that alternates between LEFT TO RIGHT and RIGHT TO LEFT (sometimes known as a "Shaker Sort") does better than any other available algorithm at taking advantage of existing order, and can re-establish order with a maximum number of passes equal to the number of elements that were out of place. Meanwhile, the "better" sort is busy resorting the entire database unnecessarily. The bubble sort, is also the EASIEST to implement for a beginning student (hopefully followed, within the hour, by other algorithms.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 3 17:27:44 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > 'Bubble Sort' has nothing to do with bubble memory. Bubble sort is a > well-known, very poor, sorting algorithm -- so poor that one book I have > contains the quote (from memory) 'If you know what a bubble sort is, wipe > it from your mind. If you don't, make a point of never finding out' :-) > The basic algorithm is : > 1) Compare items 1 and 2 on the list. If they're the wrong way round, > swap them. > 2) Now compare items 2 and 3 (of course item 2 might have been item 1 a > bit ago). Again swap them if they're the wrong way round > 3) Keep on doing that for items k,k+1 until you've compared (and if > necesssary swapped) items n-1, n (where n is the size of the list to sort) You can cut 50% off by: In each pass, compare first and second, second and third, etc ... up to comparison of item N - number of passes. > 4) Now go back and do it again. Always comparing each item with the next > one. And only ever swapping an item with the next one > 5) Keep on going through the list until you have a pass where no items > got swapped. The list is then sorted. It worst case situation, you can save one pass by stopping when you've done N-1 passes, even if that last pass did have a swap. From spc at conman.org Mon Dec 3 17:36:24 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 03, 2001 09:50:09 PM Message-ID: <200112032336.SAA28550@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > It would occasionally give a message "bubble-sorting files" when I accessed > > a drive. Does this simply mean sequentially ordering ? > > 'Bubble Sort' has nothing to do with bubble memory. Bubble sort is a > well-known, very poor, sorting algorithm -- so poor that one book I have > contains the quote (from memory) 'If you know what a bubble sort is, wipe > it from your mind. If you don't, make a point of never finding out' :-) But it beats out the lesser known Bogosort: Pick two items from the list. Swap if necessary [1]. Repeat until list is sorted. -spc (Must be the one Microsoft patentened 8-) [1] I think. It might just be ``Swap, if needed or not.'' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 3 15:51:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Dec 3, 1 03:38:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 334 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011203/1672e21f/attachment.ksh From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 3 16:12:18 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF24@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Value is in the eye of the beholder, man. Why is it automatically > "insane" when someone else views omething as being more valuable than > we do? > The resale value of the stuff we hack on is going up, and we have to > learn to deal with it. It has been for some time. People are buying > it at these prices, and it's not just one or two people. Let them > spend their money...if they're happy with their purchase, what's wrong > with it? > Further, one mustn't lose sight of the fact that different things > are more readily available in different geographic areas than in > others. Just because there are fifty AppleIIs at the corner yard sale > in your neighborhood doesn't mean there are fifty of them at EVERY > corner yard sale. ... ok, I understand this perfectly (believe me!) but this is a head cleaning kit, and anyone who's still got a 5.25" disk likely could take it apart and clean the head without the kit. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 3 16:21:11 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: RE: More E-Bay Insanity? (Christopher Smith) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF24@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <15371.64215.405182.783856@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 3, Christopher Smith wrote: > ... ok, I understand this perfectly (believe me!) but this is a head > cleaning kit, and anyone who's still got a 5.25" disk likely could take it > apart and clean the head without the kit. Yes, I agree...see my later message. :) Hmm...come to think of it, I have a genuine Radio Shack 5.25" head cleaning kit...I think I'll put it up on eBay and see how I do! 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 3 16:51:34 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF20@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > That is insane. $50.00 "Reserve not yet met..." :) It would be far MORE insane if it were to get bid up to where it DOES meet the reserve! From spedraja at ono.com Mon Dec 3 16:17:16 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: 3com 1625-0 Message-ID: <00d601c17c48$4547afa0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Dear fellows, thanks to all for the messages received until this moment about the MV 3100. With independence of this lovely machine, I have one new question. This can be difficult, I've located only 4 hits in Google and all of them referred to catalogs. Somebody has one 3com 1625-0 Coaxial FMS Hub ? I just received one. It's supposed this item has one variable voltage power supply that covers from 110 to 220 volts. Right ? It has too eight coaxial connectors, one AUI connector in the back, and... a couple ot mini-scsi connectors, one male and one female. The most dammned strange combination I saw until this moment. Do you have some info of interest about this item ? Thanks and Greetings Sergio From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Mon Dec 3 16:45:08 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: 3com 1625-0 In-Reply-To: <00d601c17c48$4547afa0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Message-ID: On 03-Dec-2001 SP wrote: > It has too eight coaxial connectors, one AUI connector > in the back, and... a couple ot mini-scsi connectors, > one male and one female. The most dammned strange > combination I saw until this moment. My guess would be that the mini-scsi connectors aren't scsi but in fact some type of cascading connection. So that multiple hubs can act as a single hub. -Philip From red at bears.org Mon Dec 3 17:12:36 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: 3com 1625-0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > My guess would be that the mini-scsi connectors aren't scsi but in fact > some type of cascading connection. So that multiple hubs can act as a > single hub. Correct, they link the hub to a managed hub. You need a hub with the management module installed, though. I'm not sure if it'll do anything without the managed hub, but I guess I could look in my docs to find out for sure. ok r. From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Mon Dec 3 16:54:44 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066274@exc-reo1> References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066274@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <1007420085.7165.13.camel@silke> Well, both actually: After taking the trouble to turn around and look i've learn that yes, i have indeed 2 VAXStations, but the third is a MicroVAX. With the **RARE!!!** option. To bad i won't sell it; it's my mail server... And don't hammer your head to hard, it might hurt. I know that, i once wanted to impress my little daughter (DON'T ASK!!), but hit the concrete wall insted of the wooden one. My daughter is still laughing. Cheers ms On Mon, 2001-12-03 at 22:43, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > > Michael Schneider wrote: > > > >So, i've learned something today 8-) > > > >All my 3100's (ok, i have only 3) have that crappy small 68pin > connector > >that wants this special cable that costs an arm and a leg. > > Either you've learned that you have a > VAXstation 3100 or you have a > @@LOOK@@ **RARE!!!** > auction just waiting for ebay :-) > > >The 50pin has 3 rows, right? Then it's the "B1 Synchronous Port 1", > >whatever this may be... > > I *knew* I shouldn't have hit Send so quickly :-) > Yes, it is 50-pin and not 37. Normally this > would be an understandable slip up, but > having supported DEC synch cards for > more than one hand's worth of > years I cannot imagine how I let > that one slip by. I'll just go and find > a piece of wall to hammer my head against :-) > > Antonio > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 17:19:47 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092654.00a256e0@www.mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20011203231948.96192.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > Well there is only one size of Centronics SCSI connector, and its 50 pin. Technically speaking, there's only one size of "Centronics" connector and it's 36 pin. Old SCSI devices use an Amp "Ribbon" connector of 50 pins. I've also heard it called a "CHAMP" connector, but that might or might not be proper usage. > You probably have the multiport serial option card which is a smaller > (36) pin SCSI connector that connects to a cable that splits it out into > 4 serial ports. I have a MicroVAX-2000 with a DHT-32(?) option. It's a serial board inside the box with a 36-pin connector in the optional interface "skirt" that you need if you have an external RD-54 on the MicroVAX-2000. Is this serial option similar? Is it really 4 extra ports? The uVAX-2K option ends in a "harmonica" with 8 MMJ connectors. I take it the uVAX-3100 just has a custom cable? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From optimus at canit.se Mon Dec 3 18:27:00 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF16@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <2289.738T0T874093optimus@canit.se> Christopher Smith skrev: >> Well when I first saw a PC ( clone that is ) , I thought >> "WOW A real keyboard, good display ( Upper / Lower Case ) >> and dual floppies all in one box". 512K ram max sounded >> like a lot of memory too. Compared to the 8 bit toy market >> at the time Z80's,C64's,Coco's that was a lot of power. >> From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] >> It was the small 16 bit addressing that killed the 8 bitters. >May have been unusual at the time. I doubt it was the first machine to have >any of that. A VAX-11/750 with a vt-100, for instance, would have had all >that less the dual-floppies and with a much higher maximum RAM limit ;) But who could by a VAX? And why one terminal only? The VAX wasn't a personal computer by any means. Not that just anyone could buy an IBM PC in '81, but chances were, your employer could. >Seriously, though, some older CP/M boxes also had real keyboards, decent >displays and dual floppies. (Some of which was optional, mind you... as were >_any_ floppies on the PC, AFAIK, in that you bought them separately :) Also >you could say that it was the first available 16-bit home computer >(depending on your definition of 16-bit), but you'd be wrong... (Quick >search says that several people believe this was the TI-99, actually, which >also had a real keyboard, and could have had the dual floppies) OTOH, the TI99's processor had the same addressing problems as the 8-bitters, 15-bit addressing with a 16-bit word orientation led to the same addressable space as the 6502 and Z80 micros. Arithmetically, the TI99 was a sixteen- bitter, but not in the common definition of sixteen bits used from the eighties and onwards. >Ultimately, the 32-bit systems were pretty close on its heels -- I have a >timeline that places the PC in '82, and the Apple Lisa in '83. I don't know >if this is correct... The PC was AFAIK released in '81. I wouldn't define the 68000 as a 32-bitter, only as a more elegant sixteen- bitter. >I have no idea how the peesee actually lasted as long as it has. There were >several 32-bit systems on the market by 1984 or so (though, my personal >favorite was done in '87 with the Acorn Archimedes). None were IBM, though, and none could be easily cloned. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Dec 3 19:11:43 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Microchannel ethernet NIC Message-ID: <57.2c50777.293d7ccf@aol.com> In a message dated 12/3/2001 3:49:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, csmith@amdocs.com writes: << Probably RJ45. It is for a friend's machine, though, so I'll have to check. I have gotten an offer of an RJ45 board via email, though, if that's the case. RE: looking for MCA NIC... why not look on ebay? always some listed there and cheap too. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 3 18:58:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Bubble sorts have their place (was: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 3, 1 03:23:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011204/6eaf6e0f/attachment.ksh From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Dec 3 19:39:39 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203193340.029331a8@127.0.0.1> I don't know of a formal (or informal....) classic computer user group in Houston, but I would love to participate in one. I know that there are several of us in Houston. I met with David and Mitch recently; very nice people. David has a real neat collection of older "personal" computers and some other Unix-class boxen as well. Obviously there are more of us, an informal gathering would be neat. - Matt >Now, to change the subject of this thread, does anyone know of any >"classic computer" user groups in the Houston area? > >-Toth Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Dec 3 20:15:31 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203193340.029331a8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <016c01c17c69$8dc087e0$1d731fd1@default> Keep me posted as I will be moving back to Houston at the end of this month. I will be driving down a full 24 footer if anyone would like to help unload it at the warehouse. It will take about 5 trips with the truck to get everything moved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Sell" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:39 PM Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} > > I don't know of a formal (or informal....) classic computer user group in > Houston, but I would love to participate in one. > > I know that there are several of us in Houston. I met with David and Mitch > recently; very nice people. David has a real neat collection of older > "personal" computers and some other Unix-class boxen as well. > > Obviously there are more of us, an informal gathering would be neat. > > > - Matt > > > > > > > >Now, to change the subject of this thread, does anyone know of any > >"classic computer" user groups in the Houston area? > > > >-Toth > > > > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com > (281) 296-6066 > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... > > From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Dec 3 22:00:45 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203193340.029331a8@127.0.0.1> References: Message-ID: <3C0BF60D.1468.170B9A6@localhost> I too would be interested in getting together with other collectors in the Houston area. Always like to meet others in the area, visit or hit collecting spots. I know there are a few more on the list. Any others interested? David On 3 Dec 2001, at 19:39, Matthew Sell wrote: > > I don't know of a formal (or informal....) classic computer user group > in Houston, but I would love to participate in one. > > I know that there are several of us in Houston. I met with David and > Mitch recently; very nice people. David has a real neat collection of > older "personal" computers and some other Unix-class boxen as well. > > Obviously there are more of us, an informal gathering would be neat. > > > - Matt ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Dec 3 22:03:57 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} In-Reply-To: <016c01c17c69$8dc087e0$1d731fd1@default> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203193340.029331a8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203220338.025096b8@127.0.0.1> Lemme know if you need any help..... - Matt At 08:15 PM 12/3/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Keep me posted as I will be moving back to Houston at the end of this >month. I will be driving down a full 24 footer if anyone would like to >help unload it at the warehouse. It will take about 5 trips with the >truck to get everything moved. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Matthew Sell" >To: >Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:39 PM >Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a >MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} > > > > > > I don't know of a formal (or informal....) classic computer user group >in > > Houston, but I would love to participate in one. > > > > I know that there are several of us in Houston. I met with David and >Mitch > > recently; very nice people. David has a real neat collection of older > > "personal" computers and some other Unix-class boxen as well. > > > > Obviously there are more of us, an informal gathering would be neat. > > > > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Now, to change the subject of this thread, does anyone know of any > > >"classic computer" user groups in the Houston area? > > > > > >-Toth > > > > > > > > Matthew Sell > > Programmer > > On Time Support, Inc. > > www.ontimesupport.com > > (281) 296-6066 > > > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > > > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... > > > > Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 3 23:17:02 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Groups in Houston (and elsewhere) Message-ID: <20011204051903.ILCC29288.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Have any of you Houston folks looked around for similar groups in your area? A quick Google search of my (Orlando) area found an Apple II group and an IBM PC group, both of which hold monthly meetings. There are probably similar groups in your area where you might meet vintage computer people (other than those on this list). Glen 0/0 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 3 19:15:59 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: Matt London "RE: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop" (Dec 3, 20:21) References: Message-ID: <10112040115.ZM5978@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 3, 20:21, Matt London wrote: > > No, that does not soud correct. > > The external SCSI-Connector (if you have one) on a MV3100 is a rather > > small, 68-PIN-HD-like connector, comparable to modern SCSI-III > > connectors. > Just my 2p's worth, but, my MV3100/m10e has a 50 pin centronics SCSI > connector - it's hooked into the scsi bus, I can see that by looking at it > - the cable connecting it has my 2nd internal HDD attached :&) As does mine, model no. DV31AT1A. > I also have the serial port option, which is a 37pin centronics. I think you mean 36-pin :-) > (Oh, what's the 50 pin HD-DB type connector? line-printer?) Good question :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 3 19:18:20 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "More E-Bay Insanity?" (Dec 3, 15:38) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10112040118.ZM5989@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 3, 15:38, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 Wow, I wonder what my 8" ones are worth ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From optimus at canit.se Mon Dec 3 21:20:41 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF24@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <887.738T2050T2605655optimus@canit.se> Christopher Smith skrev: >... ok, I understand this perfectly (believe me!) but this is a head >cleaning kit, and anyone who's still got a 5.25" disk likely could take it >apart and clean the head without the kit. I don't really know what the head looks like, and I've got several 5?" drives. OTOH, even to this day, disk cleaning kits tend to come in packs with both 3?" and 5?" disks, so it doesn't really matter. Mind you, I really should get one of those in order to sort out my Amiga HD drive, the kind which rotates so slowly, it receives more dust than data. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. /// Iggy Drougge __/\__ /// optimus@canit.se \ ?. / \\\/// http://www.canit.se/~optimus/ /_o _\ \\X/ They told me to get a life. I got a computer instead. \/ From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 3 22:13:33 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? Message-ID: <20011204041534.IYSE27388.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Dave McGuire > Hmm...come to think of it, I have a genuine Radio Shack 5.25" head > cleaning kit...I think I'll put it up on eBay and see how I do! 8-) Shoot, man, I've got a case of the things (I'd never use one myself, of course). Wait, that means I'm rich! RICH! RICHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Glen 0/0 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 3 20:47:53 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? References: <20011204041534.IYSE27388.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3C0C3959.B2834581@jetnet.ab.ca> Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > From: Dave McGuire > > > Hmm...come to think of it, I have a genuine Radio Shack 5.25" head > > cleaning kit...I think I'll put it up on eBay and see how I do! 8-) > > Shoot, man, I've got a case of the things (I'd never use one myself, of > course). > > Wait, that means I'm rich! RICH! RICHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! > > Glen > 0/0 That is until you need to buy a 5.25" floppy disk off ebay! Poor Poor Poor !!! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 3 19:27:16 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: Christopher Smith "RE: FLUKE?" (Dec 3, 15:09) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF1F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <10112040127.ZM5997@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 3, 15:09, Christopher Smith wrote: > "Let A[1:n] be an array of n numbers. > > ... > > Make repeated sweeps over the array A[1:n] from left to right. Upon > detecting any adjacent pair of numbers A[i] and A[i+1] not in proper order, > exchange them A[i] <-> A[i + 1]. When a pass is completed with no exchanges > having been made, the process terminates. Hmm, well, that's (almost) the worst example I've ever seen :-) You're supposed to stop one position shorter each time, because by the end of the sweep, the largest (or smallest, depending on which way you do the comparison-and-swap) number has fallen to the bottom (end) of the array. It makes a big difference to the time it takes. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 3 19:36:28 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: FLUKE?" (Dec 3, 21:50) References: Message-ID: <10112040136.ZM6003@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 3, 21:50, Tony Duell wrote: > 'Bubble Sort' has nothing to do with bubble memory. Bubble sort is a > well-known, very poor, sorting algorithm -- so poor that one book I have > contains the quote (from memory) 'If you know what a bubble sort is, wipe > it from your mind. If you don't, make a point of never finding out' :-) I don't know which book that was, but actually a bubble sort is one of the most efficient for things that are already nearly in order, or for small lists. Which is one reason it's used as part of some other algorithms. Definitely not for large random sets, however. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fdebros at verizon.net Mon Dec 3 20:21:35 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: On Sun Mice and Mouse pads In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021918@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Message-ID: <001b01c17c6a$65d1f240$6501a8c0@fred> Ok, just for the record: Printing the mouse.ps file on plain white paper doesn't work with any type sun mouse So I printed it on transparent paper, turned it over (so you don't scrape off the print!) and put it on one of those dark shiny antistatic bags , and on an aluminum foil: It works. But only with my type 4 mice. RIP all you optical mice, and thanks for the suggestions. Fred From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 3 21:05:05 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: On Sun Mice and Mouse pads In-Reply-To: On Sun Mice and Mouse pads (Fred deBros) References: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021918@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> <001b01c17c6a$65d1f240$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <15372.15713.54634.394978@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 3, Fred deBros wrote: > Ok, just for the record: > > Printing the mouse.ps file on plain white paper doesn't work with any > type sun mouse > So I printed it on transparent paper, turned it over (so you don't > scrape off the print!) and put it on one of those dark shiny antistatic > bags , and on an aluminum foil: It works. But only with my type 4 mice. > > RIP all you optical mice, and thanks for the suggestions. Hm, we must've used different paper. Or perhaps laser printers with different toner. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Dec 4 00:03:03 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: On Sun Mice and Mouse pads In-Reply-To: <15372.15713.54634.394978@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021918@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> <001b01c17c6a$65d1f240$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011203220235.035c0b90@mail.zipcon.net> Print it on glossy paper or on paper then put a transparent cover over it, then it might work for ya :) From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Dec 3 20:56:05 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Bubble sorts have their place (was: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011203215605.019fd4d8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:58 AM 12/4/01 +0000, you wrote: >OK, I'll admit it. I've used a bubble sort -- I had a list of 5 items to >sort, no sort routine in the standard library, and run time was not that >important. A bubble sort seemed to make sense there. >So the original statement was a little strong, sure. But equally, I've >seen the bubble sort be used in far too many places where it was the >wrong choice... > >-tony I've used it just a few days ago, while ordering the row indexes of elements in each column of the incidence matrix of _very large_ networks. However, these networks are very sparsely connected, with usually just two connections per node, and the average number of connections per node is 2.3-2.6 . This means that in most cases a bubble sort will swap data at most once for each column. Definitely the best algorithm for the problem at hand. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 4 00:04:55 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Bubble sorts have their place (was: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > contains the quote (from memory) 'If you know what a bubble sort is, wipe > > > it from your mind. If you don't, make a point of never finding out' :-) > > Then that author is an idiot! > There are a few things that I disagree with in 'Numerical Recipies', but > I certainly wouldn't call the authors 'idiots'! OK, ANYBODY can say something idiotic. His comment about bubble sort, and mine about him were equally overly intense. > > 1) situations of N elements to be sorted, to be presented/displayed R at > > a time. > This may well be true, but I am not going to accept that there are no > other sorting algorithms with this property, at least not without a lot > of thought. I can't claim that none exist, (and some sort of selection based sort seems feasable), but I've never seen anything but variations of bubble sort that provide for being able to get intermediate results without waiting for completion of the entire sort. > > 2) taking advantage of existing order. A "better" sort, such as > Often in this sort of case you know the items that are out of order. > Either you're adding a few more items to the database, or you know that > some items have changes. And, assuming the database is some kind of > linked list (so that moving iterms around is simple -- just move the > pointers), it would seem to be simpler just to take those items you know > to be sorted and then to search for the right point to insert each new > item. How about a case where data is nominally in order, but human beings have had their hands on the data? Such as retrospective conversion of a library card catalog through automated scanning and OCR. It is ALMOST in order, but there are mistakes. > > Science profs typically are incapable of understanding that not all data > > to be sorted is completely random, and they base everything that they > Comparison of sorting algorithms generally includes (at least) the cases: > List in the right order ; List in reverse order ; One item out of order ; > Random order. That is certainly better than much of what I've seen in higher education. Note that cases 1 and 3 will favor a properly written bubble sort over "better" algorithms. > > The bubble sort, is also the EASIEST to implement for a beginning student > > (hopefully followed, within the hour, by other algorithms.) > I have never been a believer in teaching something because it's simple. > I've beem on the wrong end of problems caused by simplifying things too > far.... There are certainly many problems associated with over-simplification. OTOH, sometimes it can help a lot with understanding of concepts to reduce the number of variables, at least temporarily. > OK, I'll admit it. I've used a bubble sort -- I had a list of 5 items to > sort, no sort routine in the standard library, and run time was not that > important. A bubble sort seemed to make sense there. It IS easy to implement! > So the original statement was a little strong, sure. But equally, I've > seen the bubble sort be used in far too many places where it was the > wrong choice... I've seen both. I've seen "programmers" who insist on using "better" algorithms when a bubble sort would be the right choice. OB_e-bay_bashing: WHY does it take SO long for e-bay to display the first R items from a search? And I've seen bubble sorts used when they were inappropriate, or worse yet, a bubble sort going from left to right, when right to left was called for - that creates the worst case scenario that gives a bubble sort its bad reputation. The most important thing that I teach in "Data Structures and Algorithms" is that there are no "good" or "bad" algorithms; that what counts is selecting the most appropriate one for the specific situation. The best thing that I can say about my teaching is that a significant number of my students become better than I am. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From optimus at canit.se Mon Dec 3 21:04:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Microchannel ethernet NIC In-Reply-To: <57.2c50777.293d7ccf@aol.com> Message-ID: <272.738T2100T2445293optimus@canit.se> SUPRDAVE skrev: >why not look on ebay? always some listed there and cheap too. Or comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Oj! Den buggen har ju funnits s? l?nge jag kan minnas! Jag saknar den redan. Thomas Sundqvist / Co-Gasfisk #1006 p? Fabbes BBS From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 22:52:49 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: DEC PC04/PR8E Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011204045249.44565.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Also I got a terrific looking pile of documenation and Volume 3 of the > hardware manuals is twice the size of the copy I already had. Yeah. There are several editions with different devices documented. I have a large Volume 3 and a small one, too. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 23:55:43 2001 From: bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com (Bill McDermith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: HP ".fst" format Message-ID: <3C0C655F.7060105@yahoo.com> I scrounged a copy of the RTE OS for the hp21xx computers, but it is in some strage archive format with the extension ".fst" -- this is apparently much like tar, but my sun version of tar doesn't uunpack it well (to say the least :-)... Does anyone know of either a version of the archive program for this format that I could build on a UNIX box, or the format of the file so that I could unpack it? Thanks much, Bill McDermith From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 4 00:07:21 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203193340.029331a8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > I don't know of a formal (or informal....) classic computer user group in > Houston, but I would love to participate in one. I looked at the HAL-PC http://www.hal-pc.org/ user group listing, and didn't see a classic computer group or anything similar listed. Anyone thought about starting a special interest group? > I know that there are several of us in Houston. I met with David and Mitch > recently; very nice people. David has a real neat collection of older > "personal" computers and some other Unix-class boxen as well. I only recently found the classic computer mailing list. I wish I had know it existed a long time ago. I've been collecting computer stuff for the last 10 to 12 years or so. > Obviously there are more of us, an informal gathering would be neat. That could indeed be fun. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 4 00:14:20 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} In-Reply-To: <3C0BF60D.1468.170B9A6@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, David Williams wrote: > I too would be interested in getting together with other collectors in > the Houston area. Always like to meet others in the area, visit or > hit collecting spots. I know there are a few more on the list. Any > others interested? I've got a few favorite collecting spots I'd be willing to share. Sadly, some of my former favorites seem to have very few old computers show up anymore. -Toth From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 00:22:00 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <15371.60893.575395.228687@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <009801c17c8b$fbab7220$f136cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> > On December 3, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 > > > > This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... > > Value is in the eye of the beholder, man. Why is it automatically > "insane" when someone else views omething as being more valuable than > we do? > It's not automatic; it's insane because other K-2s regularly go begging on eBay for 1/10th the price. In fact, last week a nice one didn't sell at an opening bid of $1 with no reserve + $28 fixed shipping. As many on the list know, if you wait long enough you'll probably, eventually, get what you want at the price you want (particularly when it's listed in the wrong category). It's impatience that can drives prices into the stratosphere. -W From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 4 00:24:56 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} In-Reply-To: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} (Matthew Sell) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203193340.029331a8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <15372.27704.224934.823386@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 3, Matthew Sell wrote: > I don't know of a formal (or informal....) classic computer user group in > Houston, but I would love to participate in one. > > I know that there are several of us in Houston. I met with David and Mitch > recently; very nice people. David has a real neat collection of older > "personal" computers and some other Unix-class boxen as well. > > Obviously there are more of us, an informal gathering would be neat. I'm interested in a similar thing in the Tampa Bay area, if there's anyone around... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From west at tseinc.com Mon Dec 3 22:06:02 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT NOTE (list admin) Message-ID: <000d01c17c78$fdeef420$0101a8c0@jay> The classiccmp mailing list, as well as all the classiccmp related websites that I'm hosting at no charge, must be moved IMMEDIATELY to another set of servers at another location. Due to possible legal contractual reasons, I can't publicly go into more detail. If you need further information about this just contact me off list and I'll see if I can be more specific. PLEASE keep the following points in mind: 1) PLEASE do not continue (reply to) this thread on the list, I'd rather not have a bunch of messages in the archives about this topic. If you want to say anything about this, only reply to me at west@tseinc.com 2) I have resigned from the company that I worked for, and am no longer an owner there. The only valid email address for me is west@tseinc.com and to anyone who had my cellphone number, I now have a different number. Contact me via email if you need it. 3) Anyone who had my USmail mailing address for shipping stuff to with a zip code of 63117, please dont send anything there as there's no way to be sure I will ever get the package. Contact me off list for new mailing info. 4) I will continue to have the classiccmp website as well as all the free classiccmp related websites hosted at no charge. My offer of free hosting for any such websites or mailing lists still stands. Nothing will change, only the servers the sites are located on. The new location where the sites will be hosted is every bit as robust and well managed as the old location. 5) I took extreme pride in our uptime and reliability. You can assume the same will continue with the new hosting location (wink wink). However, as much as it truely pains me to do so, the sites and list must be moved in a very unplanned, hurried, unceremonious fashion. It is certain that there will be some downtime for the mailing list, as well as some of the free sites, WHILE they are being moved - lasting possibly 48 hours. I sincerely apologize for this, but the situation forces me to do this in an abrupt manner without planning for DNS propagation and the like. My sincere apologies. 6) As I said, the offer of free hosting still stands now and in the future. If anyone has any classiccmp related sites or mailing lists they want hosted, just drop me an email. Regards, Jay West From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 4 02:11:14 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092229.00a49d50@www.mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3C0C8522.186EF01@verizon.net> Chuck McManis wrote: > I'm in Sunnyvale, and would part with one. > --Chuck Are these free? Ian From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Dec 4 03:19:22 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? In-Reply-To: <3C0C8522.186EF01@verizon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092229.00a49d50@www.mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011204011651.024dfad0@209.185.79.193> In general I prefer trading for something, but if that doesn't work out and a machine is surplus to my needs then yes, its free. Caveat, for big machines you'd have to come get it. I'm just about ready to stop mailing larger stuff because I can't get the time to get it packed and shipped for what I'd consider a reasonable amount. I've got a Link MC70 color graphics terminal, also "free" (if you're willing to come get it) and I've even got the manual somewhere. --Chuck At 03:11 AM 12/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >Chuck McManis wrote: > > I'm in Sunnyvale, and would part with one. > > --Chuck > > >Are these free? > > > Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 4 00:04:27 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:36 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092229.00a49d50@www.mcmanis.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011204011651.024dfad0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3C0C676B.26B0D30@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck McManis wrote: > > In general I prefer trading for something, but if that doesn't work out and > a machine is surplus to my needs then yes, its free. Caveat, for big > machines you'd have to come get it. I'm just about ready to stop mailing > larger stuff because I can't get the time to get it packed and shipped for > what I'd consider a reasonable amount. > > I've got a Link MC70 color graphics terminal, also "free" (if you're > willing to come get it) and I've even got the manual somewhere. Just curious, what is the non-free price for the terminal? Since I live in the 'Great White North' I don't expect shipping to be cheap. Around mid February I would like to get a clean used 'Dumb Terminal' for a 6089 style computer I an building. January I spend all my $$$ for parts and PCB. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html -- PS. It is not the shipping, but getting thru customs is the problem. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Dec 4 11:49:52 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? In-Reply-To: <3C0C676B.26B0D30@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092229.00a49d50@www.mcmanis.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011204011651.024dfad0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011204094633.00a3e700@www.mcmanis.com> At 11:04 PM 12/3/01 -0700, you wrote: >Just curious, what is the non-free price for the terminal? >Since I live in the 'Great White North' I don't expect shipping >to be cheap. Around mid February I would like to get a clean used >'Dumb Terminal' for a 6089 style computer I an building. January >I spend all my $$$ for parts and PCB. >Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html That's the problem Ben, I'm happy to take it to the local pack and ship place and say "Make this go from here to there via UPS Ground." but depending on the weight, the item (fragile/not fragile/big/not big) the price varies tremendously. From reasonable $11 - $15 to outrageous $50 - $75. Now I trust this guy who does the packing, he's great but I get into a situation where off it goes and now I've got to send you a bill that perhaps isn't worth it to you to pay. That's the risk that I deal with. --Chuck From spedraja at ono.com Tue Dec 4 02:12:44 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: 3com 1625-0 Message-ID: <012701c17c9b$7419af60$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hello: >> My guess would be that the mini-scsi connectors aren't scsi but in fact >> some type of cascading connection. So that multiple hubs can act as a >> single hub. > >Correct, they link the hub to a managed hub. You need a hub with the >management module installed, though. > >I'm not sure if it'll do anything without the managed hub, but I guess I >could look in my docs to find out for sure. I'll agree it, sincerely. My doubts are, mainly: * Can I connect the hub directly to 220 volts AC ? It appears possible if I've read correctly the AC connector info. * How must I connect the RG58 cables ? Must I put a Ethetnet 'T' with a terminator in the computer BNC connector or not ? * Finally, the link connectors and you suggestion about the link to one managed hub. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 4 03:14:41 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? References: Message-ID: <3C0C9401.A63171BF@verizon.net> Rich Beaudry wrote: > Why is it that anytime anyone asks: "Does anyone in my small > geographical area have a 'foo' they want to get rid of?" there > is invariably a slew of "I have one, but don't want to get rid > of it" or "I have one I want to get rid of, but not in your area, > and not willing to ship" messages? I'll tell you exactly why it is. It's because no one wants to pay any one very much for anything. "I have one, but don't want to get rid of it" If offered enough for it, more of them would be willing to part with it. "I have one I want to get rid of, but not in your area, and not willing to ship" It involves work, the expenditure of time and effort, to ship things. Since general list attitude seems to make it popular to complain about the costs to ship, and no one wants to pay much for anything, some people just don't want to bother with it. Personally, the stuff I don't want anymore, I just throw away. Just tossed out a pile of Macintosh and Sun keyboards. Perhaps the people that have the "foo" and respond in the manner that irks you so, are subconsiencely (sp?) making a statement. Ian "They got two good eyes, but they still can't see ..." > > > > Why is it that anytime anyone asks: "Does anyone in my small geographical > area have a 'foo' they want to get rid of?" there is invariably a slew of "I > have one, but don't want to get rid of it" or "I have one I want to get rid > of, but not in your area, and not willing to ship" messages? > > If you're not in the area, or you don't want to get rid of it, why reply? > > I mean it's gotta be annoying to the original poster to hear of others in > the area, with the "foo" he needs, but who don't want to get rid of it. > It's not bad that they have the "foo", but it seems like the reply is > rubbing his face in it.... > > > > Rich B. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 4 03:22:02 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: On Sun Mice and Mouse pads References: <001b01c17c6a$65d1f240$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <3C0C95BA.F0D462A3@verizon.net> Wow, I have several extra Sun Optical mouse pad "foos", but I don't particularly want to part with any of them, and don't especially want to go through the hassle ( probably about an hour's total worth of time ) to ship over something worth so little. Damn, what a bitch. See what I mean? Ian Fred deBros wrote: > > Ok, just for the record: > > Printing the mouse.ps file on plain white paper doesn't work with any > type sun mouse > So I printed it on transparent paper, turned it over (so you don't > scrape off the print!) and put it on one of those dark shiny antistatic > bags , and on an aluminum foil: It works. But only with my type 4 mice. > > RIP all you optical mice, and thanks for the suggestions. > > Fred From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Dec 4 02:39:45 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066277@exc-reo1> > pete@dunnington.u-net.com wrote: > >> (Oh, what's the 50 pin HD-DB type connector? line-printer?) > >Good question :-) After my earlier miscounting I'd better check carefully :-0 but if this is labelled B1 (and there is another one labelled B2 on *some* MicroVAX 3100 Model 20s) and it is three rows of pins ... then it is a synchronous communications connector. The same connector was used on several other synch comms options (DEMSA, DECnis, DSV11, DSB32, DMB32 and DSF32). The interface presented (X.21, V.35, RS422, RS423) was determined by the stub cable you plugged in. Antonio From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 4 02:43:16 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A12@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <15371.60893.575395.228687@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C0C8CA4.2124D3A@verizon.net> Well said Dave! Ian Dave McGuire wrote: > Value is in the eye of the beholder, man. Why is it automatically > "insane" when someone else views omething as being more valuable than > we do? > > The resale value of the stuff we hack on is going up, and we have to > learn to deal with it. It has been for some time. People are buying > it at these prices, and it's not just one or two people. Let them > spend their money...if they're happy with their purchase, what's wrong > with it? > > Further, one mustn't lose sight of the fact that different things > are more readily available in different geographic areas than in > others. Just because there are fifty AppleIIs at the corner yard sale > in your neighborhood doesn't mean there are fifty of them at EVERY > corner yard sale. > > As a case in point...I'm no newcomer to this field; I've been doing > pdp8/pdp11/vax stuff for a solid fifteen years. My first real system > was a pdp11/34 which I sold about ten years ago, and have regretted it > every since. I've wanted another one for several years, and had been > looking for one in earnest in the Washington DC area for a solid three > years...never managed to get one, and believe me, I know where to > look. I finally bought one locally for about $400, indirectly from a > surplus dealer who was sharking on the "antique computer craze" trying > to make a ton of money on it. I'm sure he got it for free, and he > laughed all the way to the bank. However, I'm VERY happy to have it, > and I love the machine. If I hadn't paid that $400, I wouldn't have > one. They're simply unobtainium in the DC area. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 4 02:56:16 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? References: Message-ID: <3C0C8FB0.85025608@verizon.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > Methinks the seller is a complete frigging idiot and needs to be > informed of this fact. Well, you can see from their low feedback that they are relatively new, and limited in experience. Perhaps they are just "fishing"? And you never know. They may be in dire financial straits, and in desperation, be trying anything they can, to survive. I don't so quickly pass judgement on others, but make note of others that do. > > I'll sell him a q-tip on a stick and a bottle of rubbing alcohol for $45. > > g. > > On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 > > > > This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... > > > > -dq > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 4 07:04:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A15@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 3, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Have 5.25 inch floppy drive cleaning kits > > become unobtainium, or only for the clueless: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1305651479 > > > > This is up there with the $500 Kaypro... > > Value is in the eye of the beholder, man. Why is it automatically > "insane" when someone else views omething as being more valuable than > we do? Dave- My subject line included a question mark; I wasn't making a declaration, I was posing a query... Radio Shack sold these cleaning kits for years for, what, $5.95? Now, and I don't know, perhaps RS doesn't sell them anymore. I don't have a Jameco catalog handy to check, though I could look at a Global catalog... at any rate, I'm wondering whether this might have been a typo that the seller didn't catch... -dq From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Tue Dec 4 08:43:50 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? Message-ID: Yes, but this one's being sold as "unopened." The seller thinks it has value to (or that he can make a bundle from) a _collector_ rather than a _user_. If anyone buys it, I doubt that they will ever open the package. It is madness, but (as has been said many times before) the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Smith [mailto:csmith@amdocs.com] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 4:12 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: More E-Bay Insanity? ... ok, I understand this perfectly (believe me!) but this is a head cleaning kit, and anyone who's still got a 5.25" disk likely could take it apart and clean the head without the kit. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From kentborg at borg.org Tue Dec 4 07:27:25 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: ; from mythtech@Mac.com on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 03:14:35PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20011204082725.A1649@borg.org> > Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? Probably not, just as there are probably no laws against keeping a dog in your appartment. But that doesn't mean there can't be a binding agreement that has significant legal weight. Your lease might say "no pets", and the scrapping agreement might say "no resale in working condition". And the law says such agreements are enforcable. The law does explicitly prohibit some agreements (slavery, opium futures, minors signing any contracts), but competent adults are allowed to agree to anything which isn't specifically prohibited. The welfare of children has legal protection, the welfare of old computer hardware does not. -kb From kentborg at borg.org Tue Dec 4 08:56:17 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: ; from mtapley@swri.edu on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 03:43:26PM -0600 References: <200111291841.MAA86990@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20011204095617.B1649@borg.org> On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 03:43:26PM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > Mac 128k > GUI OS for the masses, origin of "friendly" computers > (first computer to *smile* at me). If you want origins of GUI, maybe you want a Xerox Star or maybe Apple Lisa. If you want something more mainstream I think the Macintosh Plus is more appropriate. Allowing 4 MB of RAM, an 800 KB floppy, and most importantly, a SCSI port. A Mac Plus with a hard disk was actually a very useful machine. A 128 K Mac was mostly promise and expensive dreams. I guess it depends upon what you want in the museum. Do you want something that is in some way typical or failures that showed the first glimmer? > Newton > PDA origin. I was a Newton user for two models. But you might consider the first Palm Pilot instead. I didn't get a Palm until the wireless Palm VII, but the original was a sweet machine that hit its target dead on. Other than wireless (which is under appreciated) I am not sure any of the later Palm models are more than incremental additions to the original. > NeXT Cube (original) > OO system, sizeable leap in developer environment quality Steve already got his Macintosh on the list. You already have a personal-sized Unix machine on the list. I don't think the nExT gets in. And the DEC Rainbow seems not worthy. DEC already gets two entries on your list with successful computers. The Rainbow was part of the fall of the company. The Alpha is also too obscure for such a small museum. Especially now that we see it dying. I am not sure what else should go off the list (some I don't know about and maybe should), but having dumped three, I think the following need to be added: - Altair. Too much hinged on the Altair to leave it out, including Bill's first product, a BASIC interpreter. Hook up a Lear Sieger ADM-1 (?) terminal and that hand pulled optical papertape reader I used to drool over. - Apple II. A breakthrough computer that made a real splash with both hackers and lots of real people, a splash that lasted for years. Extraordinarily influential computer. - IBM XT The original PC made micros respectable (and gave them a new name) but the XT was nearly the same and with its hard disk is representative of much of what we use today. Some early model PC is needed to represent the beginning of the explosion that is just now cooling. The little Vaio on your list is a nice entry to catch the other end. (I nominate the model I am typing on now, a Z505LE.) - HP Calculator Donno what model, probably their best selling programmable. I sadly don't include an early Macintosh Powerbook or TRS-80 Model 1. The Model 1, though important, is a too much of a side road. The Powerbook is covered by the early Macintosh and the Vaio. I also don't include an early Compaq; the Vaio is also the clone representative. And attach an ASR-33 to the PDP. -kb, the Kent who never got an ASR-33. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 4 09:53:43 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF27@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] > But who could by a VAX? And why one terminal only? The VAX > wasn't a personal > computer by any means. > Not that just anyone could buy an IBM PC in '81, but chances > were, your > employer could. Well, depending on your employer they might afford a VAX too. I used one terminal as an example of a way to give your VAX a nice keyboard and display. I didn't mean it to be an exhaustive configuration. > OTOH, the TI99's processor had the same addressing problems > as the 8-bitters, > 15-bit addressing with a 16-bit word orientation led to the > same addressable > space as the 6502 and Z80 micros. Arithmetically, the TI99 > was a sixteen- > bitter, but not in the common definition of sixteen bits used from the > eighties and onwards. AFAIR the 8088 was also very "8-bit" :) I suppose it's all in the marketing, though. > The PC was AFAIK released in '81. > I wouldn't define the 68000 as a 32-bitter, only as a more > elegant sixteen- > bitter. Well, we certainly agree on the "more elegant" part. ;) > >several 32-bit systems on the market by 1984 or so (though, > my personal > >favorite was done in '87 with the Acorn Archimedes). > None were IBM, though, and none could be easily cloned. Well, no, none were IBM. (Honestly, IBM has only done a few things I like -- all of them being more expensive than I could ever hope to afford new. :) As for being easily cloned, I suppose you mean that Compaq must have already done the reverse engineering work? ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 4 09:57:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: FLUKE? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF28@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com [mailto:pete@dunnington.u-net.com] > You're supposed to stop one position shorter each time, > because by the end > of the sweep, the largest (or smallest, depending on which > way you do the > comparison-and-swap) number has fallen to the bottom (end) of > the array. > It makes a big difference to the time it takes. You're right. It would. Wirth had a better example in one of his books, but I didn't want to type it all in. ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 4 10:02:15 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers was {Off-Topic: Re: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available?} Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF29@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] > I too would be interested in getting together with other > collectors in > the Houston area. Always like to meet others in the area, visit or > hit collecting spots. I know there are a few more on the list. Any > others interested? Houston's starting to sound like a cool place to live ;) In all seriousness, though, maybe local user groups or something more loosely knit are a good idea. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Dec 4 11:37:51 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF29@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3C0CB58F.29326.7B75A2@localhost> On 4 Dec 2001, at 10:02, Christopher Smith wrote: > Houston's starting to sound like a cool place to live ;) Well I've lived in worse. ;) > In all seriousness, though, maybe local user groups or something more > loosely knit are a good idea. There are a couple of Apple II people that sometimes show up at the HAAUG meetings but those are mostly all Mac meetings. The other groups in the area, HAL-PC is the other big one, are all based around current systems. If we want a group in Houston I suspect it will be up to us classiccmp people to make one. Not sure there are enough of us yet. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 4 10:17:51 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Bubble sorts have their place (was: FLUKE? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF2A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > And I've seen bubble sorts used when they were inappropriate, or worse > yet, a bubble sort going from left to right, when right to > left was called > for - that creates the worst case scenario that gives a > bubble sort its > bad reputation. Back to the description of the bubble sort that Wirth had in his book (the book is "algorighms + data structures = programs," for the curious), he suggests modifications to a bubble sort: Always remember the position of the last switch that you've made. You can start/end here next time. (A similar thing was mentioned in a previous mail by somebody) Alternate the order of the sort going right-to-left one pass and left-to-right the next. That takes advantage of the fact that a number that's incredibly far out of place will tend to move further if you're sorting towards its proper place. (In other words, it's as you say, but assuming that we don't know the order of the data, so the sort can be generic and still be more efficient) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Dec 4 10:17:43 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E bulbs In-Reply-To: <15371.7798.224477.85707@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <15371.7798.224477.85707@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011204101743.H3743@mrbill.net> On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:40:54AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > I thought all 8/M systems had LED front panels. At least every one > I've seen has. > Not sure where to find replacements. Newark Electronics has a nice > (but expensive) selection of lamps. Also you might want to try Gilway > Technical Lamp...if you can't find them online, let me know and I'll > dig up a catalog. > -Dave I have a bunch of what I would best describe as "grain of wheat" tiny lamps from a DEC collection I recently acquired; but I dont know what system/part they're for. Bunch of em in a little blue piece of foam in a box.. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 07:32:57 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: VERY LONG: Latest S-100 Haul Message-ID: Hello all, Thanks to a VERY generous man, located about an hour's drive from me, I have a boatload of CompuPro S-100 stuff, 8" floppy drives, manuals, software, etc. The list is long, and I debated posting it here, or linking to a web page. In the end, I decided to post it here because I wanted it to be in the archives in case anyone was looking for any of this stuff. I am more than willing to copy floppies or manuals, no charge but postage (and you supply the 8" media, as I am VERY short of blanks). The only caveat is that it may take me a long time to do it, mainly becuase I'm not very organized :-) Before the list, there were also two Osborne 1 computers, one with a dead internal monitor (but works from external monitor), and one fully functional, with the double-density upgrade. Also, manuals and full sets of original disks for each. Without further ado, here's the list: CompuPro chassis, 21-slot motherboard - 1 Full CompuPro RAM22 board - 1 Full CompuPro RAM22 board - 1 Full CompuPro RAM21 board - 1 Full CompuPro RAM16 board - 1 Full CompuPro RAM17 board - 1 Macrotech Dual Processor board -- 80286 and Z80H - 1 CompuPro System Support 1 - 1 CompuPro DISK3 Hard Drive controller - 1 CompuPro Interfacer 4 - 1 CompuPro DISK1A Floppy Drive Controller CompuPro System 8/16 Chassis, 20-slot motherboard - 1 Full CompuPro RAM22 board - 1 CompuPro MDRIVE/H 512K/2 MEG disk emulator board - 1 CompuPro CPU68K board - 1 CompuPro System Support 1 board - 1 CompuPro Interfacer 4 board - 1 CompuPro DISK1 Floppy Controller Board Three dual 8" drive units (one CompuPro, two no-name) -- The CompuPro unit has two QumeTrak drives (242, I think -- full height 8"), one of the no-names has two Shugart 801 drives (single-sided only, I think), and the other no-name also has two QumeTrak drives. Unfortunately, the power supply in the no-name QumeTrak drive box literally had an LM723CN explode, breaking the chip in half, melting the socket, and fusing two pins to the socket. Cheap enough for a new chip, but time to put in a new socket, and figure out if something else has gone bad... One dual 5.25" floppy and 5.25" 40MB hard drive unit Additional S-100 cards: - Mullen Computer Products bus tracer board - CompuPro Interfacer 4 w/cable - Solid State Music PB1 2708/2716 EPROM Programmer - CompuPro DISK1 Floppy Controller - Jade Double D Floppy Disk Controller - Quantronics MM8 8K memory board, 64 2102 chips - Performics 256KB RAM card - CompuPro CPU-Z - Jade JG-Z80 Rev. C CPU board (Z80A) - Qty. 2 CompuPro CPU 8085/88 - Ackerman Digital Systems PROMBlaster II - Franklin Electric I/O Interface - Vector Electronics Interfacer II - Jade Parallel Serial I/O Board - Data Technology Corporation DTC 10-1 - Tarbell Cassette Interface, Rev. D Model 1001 - CompuPro System Support I - CompuPro RAM17 - ExpandoRAM Rev. E Original Software, 8" Floppies - CompuPro CP/M 8-16, version 1.1R - CompuPro CDOS 8-16, 4.1D-2, also labelled by CCT, version 2.0b - CompuPro DR Net, version 1.1A - CompuPro AMCALL/TIP Master, version 2.68/2.40 - CompuPro CP/M-80, version 2.2N - CompuPro CP/M-80, version 2.2LD - CompuPro CP/M-80, MDRIVE System Master, version 2.2LM - CompuPro CP/M-86, version 1.1PA - Jade CP/M version 2.2, for Double D controller card - CP/M-68K, version 1.0, labelled by Westico Software Express Service - SuperSoft C compiler (no version, copyright 1981) - CompuPro Assembler and tools 86 version 1.0 - CompuPro CP/M-68K version 1.1 - Digital Research C compiler for CP/M-86, version 1.11 - Term 3 by Echelon - Z-COM by Echelon - Discat by Echelon - PKey and I/O Recorder by Echelon - B/Printer by Echelon 20-30 Blank 8" media, some 1-sided, some 2-sided Manuals (* = original, no * = photocopy) - Code Works Small C for CP/M version n, April 1, 1981 * - BDS C version 1.4 - Jade Double D Software Manual - IMSAI 8080 Self-Contained System Operating System -- User manual and source code listings - Processor Technology Software Package #1 source listing - Qty. 3 CompuPro Interfacer 4 * (w/ schematic) - Digital Research CP/M 2 docs * - BDS C Version 1.5 * - ADS Promblaster II / Promwriter 4.0 * (w/ schematic) - CompuPro CP/M 68K Technical Manual and Installation Procedures * - Qty. 3 CompuPro RAM22 Technical Manual (w/ schematic) * - CompuPro System Enclosure and Motherboards Technical Manual * (w/ stickers and schematics) - Qty. 2 CompuPro DISK1 Technical Manual w/ schematics * - Qty. 2 CompuPro System Support 1 User Manual * (w/ schematics) - ViaSyn MDrive/H Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - CCT Brochures, Price Lists - 4 issues of C-Pro newsletter, volume 2, issues 1-4, 1985 * - Tarbell BASIC I/O System - cassette version, version 12.12 listing - Tarbell Cassette BASIC, version 12.14 listing - CompuPro System 816A Standard Switch Settings and Cable Connections - CompuPro CP/M-80 2.2 Technical Manual and Installation Procedures - Digital Research CP/M-86 Release Notes, version 1.1 * - CompuPro System Support 1 Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - CompuPro CPU-Z User Manual * (w/ schematics) - Qty. 2 ViaSyn/CompuPro CPU 8085/88 Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - Qty. 2 CompuPro RAM17 Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - CompuPro DISK1A Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - CompuPro System 8/16 Enclosure and Motherboards Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - CompuPro Concurrent DOS 8-16 Installation and Customization Guide * (marked "Advance Copy") - CCT Concurrent DOS 8-16 CMX XIOS User Guide * - Macrotech MI-286 Dual Processor (80286/Z80H) Reference Manual * (w/ schematics) - Vector Electronic Interfacer II Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - CompuPro FORTH Technical Manual * - Performics SRAM 128/258 User's Manual * (w/ schematics) - CompuPro CPU-68K Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - CompuPro RAM16 Technical Manual * (w/schematics) - CompuPro RAM21 Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - Franklin Electric I/O Serial Parallel Assembly and Test Instructions * - Data Technology Corp. DTC-10-1 Preliminary Specification (w/ schematics) - CompuPro CP/M 80 2.2 Hard Disk Installation Guide * - CompuPro MDrive Installation Manual * - CompuPro CP/M 8-16 Technical Manual and Installation Procedures * - CompuPro CP/M-86 Technical Manual and Installation Procedures * - QumeTrak 842 8" Floppy Maintenance Manual - Jade Double D Floppy Controller Manual * (w/ schematics) - Qume DataTrack 8 Maintenance Manual - Shugart 800/801 OEM Manual - PSS Model MM8 8K RAM System Manual - Solid State Music PB1 EPROM Programmer Board * (w/ schematcs) - SD Systems ExpandoRAM Operations Manual * (w/ schematics) - Tarbell Cassette Interface (w/ schematics) - Mullen Computer Products TB4 * (w/ schematics) S-100 test/probe board - Jade Serial Parallel Interrupt Controller * (w/ schematics) - Jade "The Big Z" (Z80 CPU board) * (w/ schematcs + monitor) - CompuPro TMXBIOS listings * - CompuPro DISK3 (ST506) Technical Manual * (w/ schematics) - CompuPro AMCALL and MCALL-II (comm prog.) Operations Manual * - CompuPro AMCALL and AMCALLN (supplement to above) * - Qty. 2 CompuPro CP/M 2.2 Technical Manual and Installation Procedures * - Qty. 2 CompuPro CP/M-86 Technical Manual and Installation Procedures * - Soroc IQ120 terminal Specifications and Operating Procedures * - Digital Research/CompuPro CP/M 2.2 User Reference Manual * (1 from 1982, 1 from 1978) - Qty. 2 Digital Research CP/M-86 System Guide * - Qty. 2 Digital Research CP/M-86 User's Guide * - Qty. 2 Digital Research CP/M-86 Programmer's Guide * - CompuPro Concurrent DOS 8-16 User's Guide * - Digital Research Concurrent CP/M User's Guide * - Digital Research Concurrent CP/M System Guide * - Digital Research Concurrent CP/M Programmer's Reference Guide * - Digital Research Concurrent CP/M-86 Programmer's Utilities Guide * - Lattice C Compiler v2.15A For 8086/8088 * - Digital Research DR Assembler Plus Tools for CP/M-86 * - Digital Research C Language for CP/M-86 * - Digital Research CBASIC Compiler for CP/M-68K * - Digital Research CP/M-68K User/System/Programmer Guides * - Digital Research C Compiler guide for CP/M-68K * - Supersoft Version 1.2 C Compiler for CP/M-80 * - DBase II User Manual - DBase II Reference - Microshell 1.2 User Manual - CP/M 2.2 Patches and Application notes from Digital Research - PC-Pro User's Guide - Wordstar 3.0 Customization Notes - Wordstar 3.0 General Information Manual - Wordstar 3.0 Installation Manual - Wordstar 3.0 Reference - Supersort 1.6 Operator's Handbook and Programmer's Guide - Datastar 1.1 User's Guide - CBASIC Version 2 Language Manual - The Zapple Monitor Version 1.1 - Word-Master 1.07 User Manual - SpellGuard User Manual - MAC -- Cal Poly Macro Assembler Manual * - Tarbell BASIC Manual - Calcstar 1.0 User's Manual - BSTAM Version 4.6 User Manual - CB-80 Languare Release Notes, and Reference Manual - Cal Poly/Link-80/RMAC/Library User's Guide - SID User's Guide - Microsoft MBASIC Compiler User's Manual - Microsoft BASIC-80 Reference Manual - Microsoft Utility Software User Manual (MACRO-80/LINK-80/CREF-80/LIB-80) - Island Cybernetics Information Retreival System v2.07 User's Manual - CP/M 3.0 System/Programmer/User Guides - CP/NET User's Guide - MP/M-II System/User/Programmer Guide Non-Original Disks (all 8", mixed 1S/2S, mixed densities) - Concurrent DOS 3.1D - Concurrent DOS 4.1D - CompuPro CP/M 8-16 Implementation Files - CompuPro CP/M 2.2N - Godbout CP/M 8-16 1.1PD - CompuPro CP/M 8-16 1.1R - MP/M-II 2.1 - MP/M-II 8-16 - MP/M Gen - BDS C 1.46 - Datastar - Wordstar - Spellguard - Wizard C 2.1D - Aztec C 3.2 - Lattice C 2.15 - DRI Assembler/Tools for CP/M-86 - 68K Cross-assembler - CB80 1.3 - CBASIC 2.38 - Fortran 80 - Turbo Pascal for CP/M-86 - SuperSort - DBase II - Selector III - Datastar 1.4 - IRS Infomaster - BSTAM (telecomm program) - BDS C 1.45 - Word-Master - Random House Thesaurus - Wordstar-86 - Small C 1.1 - Calcstar 1.2 - Microsoft BASIC v.4.5, 4.51, 5.1, 5.2 - CP/NET Version 1.0 Whew! That's all folks.... Rich B. From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Dec 4 08:21:23 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: VERY LONG: Latest S-100 Haul Message-ID: >Thanks to a VERY generous man, located about an hour's drive from me, I have >a boatload of CompuPro S-100 stuff, 8" floppy drives, manuals, software, >etc. YIKES Batman... Nice score! -chris From spedraja at ono.com Tue Dec 4 09:23:31 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: VERY LONG: Latest S-100 Haul Message-ID: <008501c17cd7$a22dadc0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> >Hello all, Hi ! >Thanks to a VERY generous man, located about an hour's drive from me, I have >a boatload of CompuPro S-100 stuff, 8" floppy drives, manuals, software, Very generous, I must say :-) >I am more than willing to copy floppies or manuals, no charge but postage (and you >supply the 8" media, as I am VERY short of blanks). The only caveat is that >it may take me a long time to do it, mainly becuase I'm not very organized >:-) I'm interested in the specific Digital Research Products documentation (and software, but less over this). It's possible I begin to manipulate the MP/M adn CP/NET sources to put it to work under Yaze. I must say you that I'd love to see all this manuals scanned and put together in some place dedicated to the CP/M stuff. If you can do it in a future then you're the better deposit. If you can't do it and can send it to me or another one who could scan it, it can be good too. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 4 09:50:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: VERY LONG: Latest S-100 Haul References: <008501c17cd7$a22dadc0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Message-ID: <001201c17cdb$5bee23e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Much of this source code is available through the various mirrors of the late Tim Olmstead's unofficial CP/M web site. Perhaps that will be of help to you. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "SP" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:23 AM Subject: RE: VERY LONG: Latest S-100 Haul > > >Hello all, > > > Hi ! > > >Thanks to a VERY generous man, located about an hour's drive from me, I > have > >a boatload of CompuPro S-100 stuff, 8" floppy drives, manuals, software, > > Very generous, I must say :-) > > >I am more than willing to copy floppies or manuals, no charge but postage > (and you > >supply the 8" media, as I am VERY short of blanks). The only caveat is > that > >it may take me a long time to do it, mainly becuase I'm not very organized > >:-) > > > I'm interested in the specific Digital Research Products documentation > (and software, but less over this). It's possible I begin to manipulate the > MP/M adn CP/NET sources to put it to work under Yaze. > > I must say you that I'd love to see all this manuals scanned and put > together in some place dedicated to the CP/M stuff. If you can do it > in a future then you're the better deposit. If you can't do it and can > send it to me or another one who could scan it, it can be good too. > > Thanks and Greetings > > Sergio > > > > From tony.eros at machm.org Tue Dec 4 09:10:07 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011204100510.02c79db8@mail.njd.concentric.com> Last month someone had an Industrial-8 two rack system with TU56, RK05, high-speed paper tape reader/punch listed on eBay. $1000 was evidently not enough, because now he appears to be selling off the bits. There's currently a listing for "PDP 8 Industrial DEC chassis and front panel" with about three days to go. Kind of a bummer. -- Tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 4 09:33:03 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay In-Reply-To: Parting out on eBay (Tony Eros) References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011204100510.02c79db8@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <15372.60591.974573.476351@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 4, Tony Eros wrote: > Last month someone had an Industrial-8 two rack system with TU56, RK05, > high-speed paper tape reader/punch listed on eBay. $1000 was evidently not > enough, because now he appears to be selling off the bits. There's > currently a listing for "PDP 8 Industrial DEC chassis and front panel" with > about three days to go. > > Kind of a bummer. Lynch mob time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From ip500 at home.com Tue Dec 4 10:20:40 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011204100510.02c79db8@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <3C0CF7D8.B513D88E@home.com> Quite the contrary .. by splitting this up into "managable" size lots, he will spread it around where it will do the most good. Imagine how many systems will be either enhanced or fixed and how many other people will be intriqued by the possibilities of actually getting a PDP-8 up and running. Certainly a lot more people would be interested in one or two pieces/cards/units etc, than would be in two huge racks full. Lots easier to transport too! Just my $.02 worth, Craig Tony Eros wrote: > > Last month someone had an Industrial-8 two rack system with TU56, RK05, > high-speed paper tape reader/punch listed on eBay. $1000 was evidently not > enough, because now he appears to be selling off the bits. There's > currently a listing for "PDP 8 Industrial DEC chassis and front panel" with > about three days to go. > > Kind of a bummer. > > -- Tony From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Dec 4 09:41:05 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011204100510.02c79db8@mail.njd.concentric.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011204094105.008f0100@ubanproductions.com> Yes, he works for a company which sells spares and as such they have a large inventory of old machines which have been dismantaled for component resale. The industrial 8 seems to have missed the dissassembly process originally, but as you say looks like it is now being sold in chunks, which is better than in bits and pieces. He is actually quite reasonably priced for individual boards and such, $15 for untested and $20 for tested on most old PDP11 parts... --tom At 10:10 AM 12/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >Last month someone had an Industrial-8 two rack system with TU56, RK05, >high-speed paper tape reader/punch listed on eBay. $1000 was evidently not >enough, because now he appears to be selling off the bits. There's >currently a listing for "PDP 8 Industrial DEC chassis and front panel" with >about three days to go. > >Kind of a bummer. > >-- Tony > > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Dec 4 10:46:07 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011204094105.008f0100@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200112041646.KAA14122@caesar.cs.umn.edu> This is not exactly correct. The complete 2 rack system did eventually sell, but not on ebay. He got $2000 for the whole lot. From someone who claims they would use the system for 'testing'. yeah right. What he is selling now, are a few gutted chassis. I purchased most of the PDP 8/e boards from him several weeks ago before I even knew of these extra chassis'... Mainly floppy controllers, EAE and dectape controllers. A lot of this stuff was thrown out, so there really werent that many 8/e cards available. By the way, the reason that the chassis currently on ebay is including the few cpu boards, is because I helped them after my sale by letting them know which of the boards that were still in their inventory would go with the existing chassis as a very basic system. In other words, there is no quarantee that those boards will even work with one another, due to various board revisions. None of the systems include the jumpers for making the second half of the omnibus to work. None include the lid/side/back panel. No top-connectors, no RK05 cables, etc, etc. And the boss wouldnt sell me one, they're going on ebay. The one you should be mourning, are the three systems sold by another company, that just gutted em for the front panels and cards which were ebay'd, receintly and the rest they didnt even bother putting on ebay... -Lawrence LeMay > Yes, he works for a company which sells spares and as such they have > a large inventory of old machines which have been dismantaled for > component resale. The industrial 8 seems to have missed the dissassembly > process originally, but as you say looks like it is now being sold > in chunks, which is better than in bits and pieces. > > He is actually quite reasonably priced for individual boards and such, > $15 for untested and $20 for tested on most old PDP11 parts... > > --tom > > At 10:10 AM 12/4/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Last month someone had an Industrial-8 two rack system with TU56, RK05, > >high-speed paper tape reader/punch listed on eBay. $1000 was evidently not > >enough, because now he appears to be selling off the bits. There's > >currently a listing for "PDP 8 Industrial DEC chassis and front panel" with > >about three days to go. > > > >Kind of a bummer. > > > >-- Tony > > > > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 4 10:02:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A18@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 4, Tony Eros wrote: > > Last month someone had an Industrial-8 two rack system with TU56, RK05, > > high-speed paper tape reader/punch listed on eBay. $1000 was evidently not > > enough, because now he appears to be selling off the bits. There's > > currently a listing for "PDP 8 Industrial DEC chassis and front panel" with > > about three days to go. > > > > Kind of a bummer. > > Lynch mob time. OTOH, I know someone hoping to pick up the chassis/front panel (not me)... -dq From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Dec 4 10:56:54 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A18@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <200112041656.KAA14168@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Then tell them there will be a lot of them, so dont drive the price up. -Lawrence LeMay > > OTOH, I know someone hoping to pick up the chassis/front panel > (not me)... > > -dq > From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 4 10:33:01 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF2B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > On December 4, Tony Eros wrote: > > Last month someone had an Industrial-8 two rack system with > TU56, RK05, > > high-speed paper tape reader/punch listed on eBay. $1000 > was evidently not > > enough, because now he appears to be selling off the bits. There's > > currently a listing for "PDP 8 Industrial DEC chassis and > front panel" with > > about three days to go. > > Kind of a bummer. > Lynch mob time. Exactly what I was thinking. That really offends me. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Dec 4 10:04:50 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: <3C0BF60D.1468.170B9A6@localhost> Message-ID: <3C0C9FC2.9083.264A4F@localhost> On 4 Dec 2001, at 0:14, Tothwolf wrote: > I've got a few favorite collecting spots I'd be willing to share. > Sadly, some of my former favorites seem to have very few old computers > show up anymore. I'd be happy to share places I look as well. Alas one of my most favorite spots (had lots of classic stuff and was the type of place with no prices, you'd grab a bunch of stuff and the manager would ask what do you offer) threw everything out and converted to a $0.99 store. Guess my offers weren't making him enough. So who wants to get together one weekend? I'd be happy to act as a central point if people want to email me off list. Kelly, are you reading? Want to join in? David ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 4 12:37:36 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop In-Reply-To: "Carlini, Antonio" "RE: TK50-GA external SCSI tape unit + Microvax 3100 Desktop" (Dec 4, 0:39) References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066277@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <10112041837.ZM6669@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 4, 0:39, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > pete@dunnington.u-net.com wrote: > > > >> (Oh, what's the 50 pin HD-DB type connector? line-printer?) > > > >Good question :-) > > After my earlier miscounting I'd better check > carefully :-0 but if this is labelled B1 (and > there is another one labelled B2 on *some* > MicroVAX 3100 Model 20s) and it is three > rows of pins ... then it is a synchronous > communications connector. The same > connector was used on several other > synch comms options (DEMSA, DECnis, > DSV11, DSB32, DMB32 and DSF32). > The interface presented (X.21, V.35, > RS422, RS423) was determined by the > stub cable you plugged in. Thanks for that -- that's helpful. I might even have a use for it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 4 12:54:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: <10112040118.ZM5989@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 4, 1 01:18:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 378 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011204/51f7aade/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 4 13:21:04 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: Re: More E-Bay Insanity? (Tony Duell) References: <10112040118.ZM5989@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15373.8736.334703.716070@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 4, Tony Duell wrote: > Presumably the number of people still using 8" drives who don't know how > to clean the heads 'by hand' is even less than the number of people using > 5.25" drives who don't know that. Which means that apart from collectors, > there may be very few people who actaully need an 8" cleaning kit... ...which further suggests that, of the people who would want an 8" cleaning kit, a higher percentage of them are collectors. Get those 8" kits on eBay, and make a fortune! ;) [sorry, couldn't resist..] Say, anybody got a spare top lid for a 10.5" 11/34 CPU chassis? I could actually use two if anybody has a pile o' parts.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 4 12:59:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: More E-Bay Insanity? In-Reply-To: <887.738T2050T2605655optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Dec 4, 1 04:20:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 990 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011204/bce50f9c/attachment.ksh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 4 13:17:37 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Anyone have a MicroVax II in a BA123 available? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092229.00a49d50@www.mcmanis.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011204011651.024dfad0@209.185.79.193> <5.1.0.14.0.20011204094633.00a3e700@www.mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3C0D2151.A80E5A8@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck McManis wrote: > That's the problem Ben, I'm happy to take it to the local pack and ship > place and say "Make this go from here to there via UPS Ground." but > depending on the weight, the item (fragile/not fragile/big/not big) the > price varies tremendously. From reasonable $11 - $15 to outrageous $50 - > $75. Now I trust this guy who does the packing, he's great but I get into a > situation where off it goes and now I've got to send you a bill that > perhaps isn't worth it to you to pay. That's the risk that I deal with. I think this boils down to what is a realistic price for a item. Take a used terminal, I would like to spend $100 canadian for one, shipping included. I would not mind spending $5, but will that get me $200 of headaches. This is where I think we need a informal price sheets of costs involved. Also a good resource for documentation and software. Over the last few years many of the $5-$25 items that I found could have been more valuable I tossed because of lack of documentation or no software. Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 4 13:22:33 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Houston Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3C0C9FC2.9083.264A4F@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, David Williams wrote: > On 4 Dec 2001, at 0:14, Tothwolf wrote: > > I've got a few favorite collecting spots I'd be willing to share. > > Sadly, some of my former favorites seem to have very few old computers > > show up anymore. > > I'd be happy to share places I look as well. Alas one of my most > favorite spots (had lots of classic stuff and was the type of place > with no prices, you'd grab a bunch of stuff and the manager would > ask what do you offer) threw everything out and converted to a > $0.99 store. Guess my offers weren't making him enough. A few weeks ago when I went to one place I visited regularly, they told me they got rid of all their old computer stuff. There wasn't so much as a single pc board or power supply to be found. One of my current favorite spots, I find a box, load it up with board/cables/junk, and ask em what they want. The more it's piled up, the better the price seems to be ;) Most of the stuff I pick up at that place is old Mac/PC stuff, but I've seen some Sun parts in there at times too. If you are looking for MFM/RLL type drives, dead or alive, they seem to be one place worth looking. Another place that used to be one of my favorites is a scrap metal dealer, I don't go there much anymore, since they always wanted way too much money for anything they had. They always seemed to have very loud annoying music playing too :/ -Toth From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 12:59:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Shugart hard disk info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Dec4.151208est.119070@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> This is being asked out of curiosity, since I happened to think about it today. About 13 years ago, a large hard disk was pulled out of a piece of medical equipment and made it's way across my desk. The drive was made by Shugart and I believe it had a SASI interface. It was easily as big as a dual-8" floppy enclosure, maybe 14" in diameter and had it's own PSU. The case over the platters was clear plastic. One of the guys I worked with pulled the PSU parts out of it and unfortunately I didn't think to keep the rest of it from being junked, mainly due to it's size. Any ideas as to what this might have been? It certainly wasn't near new at the time of it's removal. At the time, we were still running a CP/M system for our tracking database and we backed up it's hard disk once a week on it's 8" floppy drive, which was integrated in the system and standing on it's side. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 4 13:45:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Parting out on eBay In-Reply-To: <15372.60591.974573.476351@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I'm in. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 4, Tony Eros wrote: > > Last month someone had an Industrial-8 two rack system with TU56, RK05, > > high-speed paper tape reader/punch listed on eBay. $1000 was evidently not > > enough, because now he appears to be selling off the bits. There's > > currently a listing for "PDP 8 Industrial DEC chassis and front panel" with > > about three days to go. > > > > Kind of a bummer. > > Lynch mob time. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL > From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue Dec 4 13:51:31 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Terminal finds? Message-ID: <14c.5262af0.293e8343@aol.com> Does anyone on the list know where I might be able to find a few (10-20) used but in good shape dumb terminals? I need some with a pc-style kb and wyse 60 emulation. -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Tue Dec 4 14:47:40 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Terminal finds? References: <14c.5262af0.293e8343@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C0D366C.ECD3FE52@tinyworld.co.uk> LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone on the list know where I might be able to find a few > (10-20) used but in good shape dumb terminals? I need some with a > pc-style kb and wyse 60 emulation. Where are you, Linc? I have about 30 Wyse WY-520s that I can't even give away. I'm not sure what type the keyboards are. I'm in West Sussex, UK. If anyone in the UK needs terminal(s) with a good VT420 emulation and you're prepared to come and get them, be my guest. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Dec 4 13:54:53 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Dataproducts printer inteface In-Reply-To: <00fc01c17b9d$a7824960$259117d2@garuda> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011204145453.007eb100@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:55 PM 12/3/01 +1100, you wrote: >Sorry for the repost... but has anyone heard of >the (old) Dataproducts printer inteface? >It was also called the Line printer interface, and >was used on other Brands besides just Dataproducts. FWIW: I've never heard of a "Dataproducts interface" but I've seen dozens of Dataproducts S-100 cards including printer interfaces. They do, or at least did, show up regularly in the scrap places around here (Florida). Usually there are some name brand S-100 cards with them. I pick up the standard brand S-100 cards but not the Dataproducts ones since I have no docs for them. I've never seen the machines that the cards come out of so I have no idea about them. Joe > >Basically I know it uses differential signals - otherwise similar >to centronics - but I would like to find out some details. > >I have the Pinout: >http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/parallel/dataproductsdsub50.html > >I would really like to find a description of the >"Demand" signal and the polarity of "Strobe" and "OnLine" >I would like to know the levels (I presume they are TTL) > >If anyone can help me out, perhaps I can respond >in kind by giving them the final result - a circuit >for a Centronics-->Dataproducts interface. > >steve@airborn.com.au > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Dec 4 14:00:45 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: The cost of "free" stuff In-Reply-To: <3C0D2151.A80E5A8@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203005647.00ad67a0@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011203092229.00a49d50@www.mcmanis.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011204011651.024dfad0@209.185.79.193> <5.1.0.14.0.20011204094633.00a3e700@www.mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011204113215.0281a6d0@mcmanis.com> At 11:17 AM 12/4/01, Ben Franchuk wrote: >I think this boils down to what is a realistic price for a item. No, it doesn't. It boils down to whether or not you want something. Clearly the only truly "free" thing is when you happen to drive by someone's house for some other reason, and they hand you something you didn't expect. You were going to their house anyway, and so the costs associated with driving there were already budgeted. I have lots of excess VAX stuff because I tend to buy it on occasion from scrappers and government types who are throwing it away. That leaves me with extras of course and I've pretty much saturated the folks in the Bay Area who are willing to come get stuff. So now I have two options: The "free" option is I put it on the sidewalk on a certain day and the City of Sunnyvale comes by with a big truck and takes it away. This has the benefit that it requires little work on my part, it has the downside that another piece of nearly classic hardware has ended its life permanently. A slightly less "free" option is that I can give it to a scrapper who will try to auction it off and then if that fails will recycle it. This has the benefit that there is a small chance I might get some of the money I invested back. The even less "free" option is that I offer it here for the cost of shipping. Now I spend the time and effort to, find or buy a box to pack it in, then drive down to a package delivery service and send it on its way. For things that fit in a Priority mail box this works well (Q-bus boards for example) because the post office gives you boxes and generally I've got enough left over packing material that its straight forward to do. Plus the mailman will pick the box up from my house if I choose. The even more expensive option (to me) is to try to give something "big" away (A MicroVAX II in a BA123 certainly fits that category!). Now I have to buy a special box and/or pallet. That's usually about $8 - $15. Then the foam (peanuts don't work on really heavy things) which can run $5 - $15 depending. And spend the time packing it and take it to the UPS counter, wait in line, and ship it. All told about 2 - 4 hours of my time. Lately, given how busy I've been, it has been really hard to find the time to do that sort of stuff. So the final option is to simply take the item to a pack and ship place that is < 10 minutes away. Fill out their UPS shipment form, leave them my credit card information, and then go home again. My time is < 1 hr. But then I have no visibility into how much it will cost (I do know these guys well and it is fairly economical) but its 10% - 20% more than if I spent the time to pack it and take it to UPS. However, for some things, say a PDP-8, I seriously doubt that anyone on this list would refuse to pay the cost to pack and ship it to them by a third party. For common things, like a MicroVAX II the value proposition is not so clear. >Take a used terminal, I would like to spend $100 canadian for one, >shipping included. I would not mind spending $5, but will that >get me $200 of headaches. This is where I think we need a informal >price sheets of costs involved. Except that "used terminals" from dealers typically cost around $100 US. By the same token, they are exceptionally easy to find for the moment so if you invested in a couple of tanks of gas you could probably find one within 1 days drive for "free". But now you would have to invest your time and effort to call folks, drive around, and pick it up and maybe it works and maybe it doesn't. Over the last two years I've ended up buying over 15 VT320's, out of those 15 I've kept 6 really nice examples (bright, non-burned, screens, two GREEN ones!). They probably cost me $150 total in terms of cash but maybe a weeks worth (40 hrs) of time over those two years. So the bottom line is, if you want a Link MC70 terminal w/Manual [I paid $20 for the manual from one of those dealers], which people sell on the web for US$400 for the cost that I paid to have it packed and shipped to you, _whatever_ that happens to be. (I realize that you have to trust that I would try to rip you off by telling you it cost more than it did, I'd be happy to include for you the invoice from the pack and ship place) Then let me know. > Also a good resource for documentation >and software. Over the last few years many of the $5-$25 items that >I found could have been more valuable I tossed because of lack of >documentation >or no software. I'll include the manual. However, another thing this reminded me off. It has, displayed some initial temperature instability. This came in the form of the 'yellow' changing a bit now and then. Since only one character changed it appeared to be one of the RAMs and not the tube or crt electronics. After it was warmed up this symptom went away. --Chuck From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Dec 4 14:53:19 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: Anyone parting with a Wyse 60 Message-ID: Does anyone have a Wyse 60 they want to part with on the cheap? (working only please... I have a dead one thanks) I tried buying one on ebay a few times, and each time, either they were in horrible condition, or went above my price threshold, or I got "ebayed" at the last second by someone outbidding me. I would prefer one in the NJ area that I can drive and pick up as cost is my #1 issue, but if total cost (buy + shipping) isn't too bad, I will accept shipped ones. I might have stuff to trade, but most everything I have that is available to be parted with is PC related, which A: isn't as popular here, and B: isn't as hard to get as other systems. I do have a C64 or two (don't know functional condition), maybe some other stuff (like these Zebra 2500 manuals I keep tripping on) If you have something in mind, let me know, I will see if I have it. Thanks -chris From root at ns2.ezwind.net Sat Dec 8 18:15:13 2001 From: root at ns2.ezwind.net (Charlie Root) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:37 2005 Subject: testing Message-ID: <200112090015.fB90FD700236@ns2.ezwind.net> testing From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 8 18:48:00 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <200112090015.fB90FD700236@ns2.ezwind.net> References: <200112090015.fB90FD700236@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >testing Cool...the first message I've seen come through here since Tuesday! Alright Jay..... Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Sat Dec 8 20:18:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <714.743T1600T1985537optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>testing > Cool...the first message I've seen come through here since >Tuesday! Alright Jay..... Oh no, is this list back up again? This has been the most quiet week I've had in a long time. I'm sorry to say it, but the finals are coming up, and this last week has really opened my eye as to how great a portion of my mailbox which has been ClassicCmp traffic, so I'm sorry to say that it's no good-bye from me. Good bye, list, I hope we'll see each other in the future, too! I tend to bump into some of you in other fora, since the regs are often celebs in other places, too. Arrivederci! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. MUSIK G?R MAN AV PLAST OCH KISEL! TR?D ANV?NDER MAN TILL M?BLER! From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 8 19:04:35 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <200112090015.fB90FD700236@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Charlie Root wrote: > testing > testing 1..2..3... PCW From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 8 19:22:03 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: Re: testing (Peter C. Wallace) References: <200112090015.fB90FD700236@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <15378.48315.364570.65911@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 8, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > testing > > testing 1..2..3... KA410-A V1.2 F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1_.. -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From anon2048 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 18:45:31 2001 From: anon2048 at hotmail.com (Anon 2048) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: test number 2 Message-ID: test number 2 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From ernestls at attbi.com Sat Dec 8 20:35:03 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Yay! It's back up In-Reply-To: <3C12BA9D.4C25AF6C@attbi.com> Message-ID: My email has been to quiet lately. Ernest From mranalog at attbi.com Sat Dec 8 19:13:01 2001 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: 1961 build-your-own computer book Message-ID: <3C12BA9D.4C25AF6C@attbi.com> I just recently found a cute little computer book called "I can learn about Calculators and Computers" by Raymond G. Kenyon, Harper & Brothers, 1961 112 pages. The chapters are entitled: How Early Man Counted and Computed The Story of Modern Computers Construct Your Own Calculators and Computers - - Oriental Abacus - John Napier's Bones - Slide Rules - "Stepped-Wheel" Calculator - Digital Computer - Analog Computer Materials used consist of wood, wire, D-cell batteries, flashlight bulbs, potentiometers, etc. Remember wooden cigar boxes? Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Dec 8 19:38:13 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I'm wanting to buy a Tiger Learning Computer from anyone who may have one >they don't want. This was the kid computer released during Christmas of >1996 but only sold in limited numbers in the JC Penney 1996 Christmas >catalog. It was Apple ][ compatible--it basically had enhanced Apple //e >ROMs and used Flash ROM cards as an emulated Disk ][ drive. It had >Appleworks built-in. Very nifty. Fry's had a couple of notebook looking things, except with very small, ie 5 lines x40 character displays called Learning Computers. Prices were $29 for extremely cheesy, and $69 for moderately Cheesy. Maybe there is a connection to the earlier machines? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 8 21:15:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: iPDS questions Message-ID: I'm sure glad to see the list is back up, I originally tried the following message on Tuesday. I still don't know anything more about the system. Unfortunatly it's been raining really hard around here since Tuesday, so the system is still sitting at work, and I've not really been able to examine it. Zane I'm still a little shocked. I just found a working iPDS system, complete with documentation and some software. Unfortunatly I don't think a lot of it is still readable. I did get the system to boot and pass all diagnostics. I know nothing about these beasties, from looking at the doc's it's obviously i8085 based with 64k RAM. It's got a single 5 1/4" floppy, and it's in a case slightly smaller than a Kaypro II. In the area behind the CRT is a storage area for two pods that each handle two different sizes of PROMs, these plug into a hole in the right side of the case. What on earth filesystem are the floppies? Are any kind of software images available to replace the dead floppies? Is there any software to read and write to the floppies from MS-DOS? Basically the main thing I'm interested in is the systems ability to read and write PROMs. I wouldn't mind being able to use this to support my DEC hardware :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 7 22:33:15 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Shugart hard disk info In-Reply-To: <01Dec4.151208est.119070@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <20011209023949.ERLB16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Kinda sounds like a Quantum Q2020. I had one with a sasi board mounted on it back in 93'. Has a smoked plastic mech cover and a whole bunch of warning stickers indicating it can remove digits if you dink with it while open? I used a CSS Black Box for an interface. Sasi drives (and most scsi bridge controllers) require specific formatting code. Also, iirc, sasi devices required a dos-level bad sector map of the drive. In other words, the dos you use scans the drive and creates a file occupying all the bad sectors detected. The hardware didn't do that as with most (all?) scsi drives/bridge controllers. As I recall, the q2020 has the same geometry as the Seagate st225 (620/4/17).?? The q2020 is an 8" 20mb unformatted drive which yields 16mb (more or less) when formatted and has a 40ms average seek time. Mine had an aluminum cased ps bolted to it and the drive stood on it's side. Regards, Jeff In <01Dec4.151208est.119070@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil>, on 12/04/01 at 02:59 PM, Jeff Hellige said: > This is being asked out of curiosity, since I happened to >think about it today. About 13 years ago, a large hard disk was pulled >out of a piece of medical equipment and made it's way across my desk. >The drive was made by Shugart and I believe it had a SASI interface. It >was easily as big as a dual-8" floppy enclosure, maybe 14" in diameter >and had it's own PSU. The case over the platters was clear plastic. >One of the guys I worked with pulled the PSU parts out of it and >unfortunately I didn't think to keep the rest of it from being junked, >mainly due to it's size. Any ideas as to what this might have been? It >certainly wasn't near new at the time of it's removal. At the time, we >were still running a CP/M system for our tracking database and we backed >up it's hard disk once a week on it's 8" floppy drive, which was >integrated in the system and standing on it's side. > Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 7 22:56:52 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Need "PC Mouse" driver for PCjr .. In-Reply-To: <3C0986B1.4090905@magnaspeed.net> Message-ID: <20011209023948.ERKY16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I've been using a Logitech Wheel Mouse (optical) for more than a year now on my OS/2-based pc. My Sparc has an old-style optical mouse (requires special HARD TO FIND pad). The new optical mice rock hard core man. I can't believe it, but now there is a mouse that will track on your ASS. I play CounterStrike quite a bit and wouldn't trade my optical Logitech for anything less than the cost of a new one. This optical mouse is so accurate it immediatly improved my scores in the game. It tracks on any surface at all (I haven't tried a mirror). BTW, I don't bother with a pad anymore. Too confining. In <3C0986B1.4090905@magnaspeed.net>, on 12/01/01 at 07:41 PM, "Michael B. Brutman" said: >Chris (mythtech@mac.com) spake: > >>The mouse looks to be a slightly > >>modified version of the "PC Mouse". The neat thing is that it is an > >>optical mouse. [:-)] > >I had an optical mouse way back when with my Mac Plus... I bought it >as >a replacement for a broken mouse. I think it was made by A+ > >At the time, I hated it, you needed a special mouse pad for it to work, > >and it wasn't as accurate as the Mac Plus mouse, which made it even > >harder to draw. > >Just one of those things that I found interesting now that optical mice > >are all the rage. >Actually, I don't like the old style optical mice at all. I like this >one because I think the older optical mice are hard to find. And on top >of it, this was manufactured for use on the Jr - it wasn't just a >run-of-the-mill PC mouse, it had two funny connectors specific to the Jr. >(One for serial, and one to take power off the lightpen port.) All of >that makes it special. >My original machine had an MS bus mouse with a roller. Quite a different >animal to use. >The new optical mice are only vaguely related to the old ones. They don't >need the pad or anything. I haven't used one, so I don't know if they >are any more usable. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 7 23:01:17 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: <15369.24039.255250.646501@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011209023946.ERKP16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I ran into this problem a couple of years ago and solved it by buying a PC optical version of a sun mouse, trashing the mouse and mating the pad with my Sun..... In the meantime, someone on the list suggested crinkled aluminum foil over a book or other pad-like thingy. It worked. Not wonderfully, but it worked. Regards, Jeff In <15369.24039.255250.646501@phaduka.neurotica.com>, on 12/01/01 at 05:47 PM, Dave McGuire said: >On December 1, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: >> > Type 3 definitely requires a different pad from type 4... >> Then you have other type 3 rodents than I. Mine are identical to the >> type 4 mice, only with an other connector. > It's certainly possible that I'm thinking of the Type 2...this was a >long time ago and I was running a couple of Sun2-120 boxes at the time. > -Dave -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 7 23:09:13 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Badtrans In-Reply-To: <001b01c1790f$616a20a0$504d7ad5@phoenix> Message-ID: <20011209023945.ERJY16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> My brother has an xxxxx-devnull@xxxx.com address. I thought that was a pretty nifty way of dealing with spam. ;-) Regards, Jeff In <001b01c1790f$616a20a0$504d7ad5@phoenix>, on 11/29/01 at 07:52 PM, "Philip Pemberton" said: >Hi All, > I've noticed that a few of you have been chatting about Badtrans - >according to Symantec, if you drop the underscore from the "From:" >address, you should end up with the user's actual e-mail address - if the >virus chose to use the actual address... > I've picked apart the message source and what it does is quite sneaky >- >it uses an IFRAME to load the virus and also uses >MIME-headers-within-MIME-headers... A few of the regulars on >alt.comp.virus might want to elaborate... It's a crafty little bugger - >it even installs a keystroke logging trojan... Anyone remember the >so-called "Sexyfun" or "Spirale" virus (it's real name was Hybris) - it >came in an e-mail from hahaha @ sexyfun.net and could update itself over >the web with new "plugins"... One of which displays a _huge_ hypnotic >spiral on-screen... Sophos put a screenshot of it on their website >(www.sophos.com). >Later. >-- >Phil. >philpem@bigfoot.com >http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 7 23:18:46 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011209023944.ERJV16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I think system 7.1? You can however run a neato unix system on it named MiNT. MiNT is a bsd variant that runs on 68k boxes that don't have an mmu or fpu onboard. Of course if you have these chips on a later-model machine so much the better. I run it on my 4mb Atari Mega St and am pretty happy with it. Just do a websearch for SpareMint or MacMint. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/29/01 at 09:40 AM, One Without Reason said: >Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on >68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? >Peace... Sridhar -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 7 23:22:03 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011209023942.ERJS16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> There are rumors and facts regarding Atari's activity in disposal. Mass graves of Atari computers, game machines, cartridges. I do believe that most of the "ET" game carts were buried in unmarked graves.... Good. ET sucked. Regards, Jeff In <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>, on 11/29/01 at 07:00 AM, Douglas Quebbeman said: >> Scrapping them off the books for tax purposes, in all likelyhood. We >> used to have to physically destroy our COMBOARDs before we could write >> them off. If we were ever audited and happened to have product that >> was logged as scrap, but hadn't been, we would have been in a world >> of hurt from either the County Tax officials or perhaps the IRS. >> >> It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. >IMHO, all you need to do is ensure there remains no evidence to the >contrary... admittedly, it might get very difficult to have 10,000 units >disappear with a wink and a handshake... >-dq -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 7 23:24:19 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: FS: Only ATR8500 in existence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011209023941.ERJN16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> To the best of my knowlege, this is the only SWP ATR8500 in existence. It's serial number is "005". It was a prototype sent to B&C way back when. It includes the original manuals, boot disks, schematics etc. It is an Atari peripheral (disk interface, printerface, serialface) and a CP/M computer with 64kb onboard. It is a board (no case) about the same dimensions as the controller board on a Seagate St506 but with different mounting holes. Basicly this is an ATR8000 with a hardware uart, a dma jack and a much smaller footprint. Power requirements can be met with a standard XT/AT supply (re-order pins to match jack). It does not require an Atari to use as it will interface with a standard dumb terminal. Any offers? Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ncherry at home.com Sat Dec 8 21:00:27 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: FS: Only ATR8500 in existence References: <20011209023941.ERJN16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <3C12D3CB.B22BC064@home.com> UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > To the best of my knowlege, this is the only SWP ATR8500 in existence. > It's serial number is "005". It was a prototype sent to B&C way back > when. It includes the original manuals, boot disks, schematics etc. It > is an Atari peripheral (disk interface, printerface, serialface) and a > CP/M computer with 64kb onboard. It is a board (no case) about the same > dimensions as the controller board on a Seagate St506 but with different > mounting holes. > > Basicly this is an ATR8000 with a hardware uart, a dma jack and a much > smaller footprint. Power requirements can be met with a standard XT/AT > supply (re-order pins to match jack). > > It does not require an Atari to use as it will interface with a standard > dumb terminal. > > Any offers? Please don't get insulted as all I can offer is $100 + shipping. If no one offers please consider it. And Yes I thik it's worth more but I'm on a tighter budget lately. I have an ATR-8000 and I think it's great. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 21:44:28 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff Message-ID: <20011209034428.54502.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Lawson wrote: > Aluminium = non-magnetic Iron = magnetic in terms of marginal > shielding from external fields. Do para-magnetic cows go "mu"? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 21:46:18 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <20011209034618.48673.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Louis Schulman wrote: > Commodore PET drive system. Holy smoke, a whole second computer just > to operate the drives, and even then, blecch. Being a PET user from way back, I always liked the Commodore drives from one particular aspect - they were intellegent peripherals. You didn't bang on a couple of registers to make magic things happen (like on the Apple), you communicated your request and it did what you asked or it told you why it didn't work. The thing I did *not* like about them was that they were scorchingly expensive. By the time I could afford a PET drive, nobody cared anymore. I think my first 4040 was about $10 from the university surplus. I also liked the fact that the PET did not need boot disks. I saw that as a major source of problems watching my friends sort through piles of Apple floppies, looking for a DOS3.3 disk. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 21:47:48 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple DuoDisk (was Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff) Message-ID: <20011209034748.79050.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/8/2001 5:06:19 AM Central Standard Time, > foo@siconic.com writes: > I do remember reading something of a faulty/out of spec component > inside the duodisk that would cause some issues with the floppy drives > but like I said, coming up 404 on it. Think I'll ask in comp.sys..... > and find out for sure. I'd like to hear more about this. I always used individual drives (typically SA400 mechs) when I did Apple development. The IIe and DuoDisk were too new and expensive for a low-budget shop like us (but we did eventually support the //c _and_ the Apple mouse) I have a DuoDisk but no cable. What pins were used? I think I _might_ have a cable that was sacrificed to the Amiga gods by having one of the pins broken out of one end for use as a modem cable (since the Amiga puts voltage on some of the pins). It was a stupid thing to do, but it was more than 10 years ago when Apple stuff was underappreciated. Anyone have an Apple part number for a DuoDisk cable? Will a 25-pin straight-through work? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 8 21:49:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Shugart hard disk info In-Reply-To: Re: Shugart hard disk info (UberTechnoid@home.com) References: <01Dec4.151208est.119070@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <20011209023949.ERLB16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <15378.57149.294724.824846@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 7, UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > As I recall, the q2020 has the same geometry as the Seagate st225 > (620/4/17).?? I think that's 614 cylinders for the ST225. Oh GOD why do I remember that? Can't I recycle those brain cells? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Dec 8 20:13:20 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) Message-ID: <13697572560.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Same machine, new problem. ^_^ Whilst out in the garage playing with the 44 (which I still don't have an OS for...), my kid sister and one of her friends come out to the garage to smoke. (They're not allowed to smoke in the house.) Anyway, while the 44 is running, her friend says, "Wow, that's loud!", to which Monica replies "This one's louder!" and turns on the KS10... You know what's coming. And we had christmas tree packages and such all over the garage, too, so navigating the garage in the dark was real fun... (For those who didn't see it coming, the garage breaker went...) Anyway, after resetting the breaker, waiting for the VAX to reboot, checking that the KS10 was still in working order (I wouldn't be mailing if the KS10 was broken. I'd be busy burying my sister. ^_^) and putting back all the boxes I stepped on or knocked over, it was discovered that the 11/44 no longer powered on. The power control lights are on, the RX02 and SCSI disks inside the case work, but the BA11 (Is that the right part?) will not turn on. When you turn the switch on the front panel, nothing happens. No click, no fans, nothing. The breaker on the back of the BA11 did not trip. I turned it off and back on, nothing happened. I ran the AC power checks in the manual and nothing happened. I checked the front-panel wiring was still connected, it was. I pulled and reseated the front-panel control board in the UNIBUS. Nada. It looks like it should be working, it doesn't smell burnt, and I opened the top of the BA11 power supply and looked inside, and it looks really scary (what, with the THIS VOLTAGE WILL KILL YOU stickers and wires thick as my fingers and whatnot...) but it doesn't look burnt. Is there a hidden switch or fuse or something in there? That's what it looks like... Failing that, someone got directions for checking out an 11/44 power supply? ------- From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 7 22:24:19 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Shugart hard disk info In-Reply-To: <15378.57149.294724.824846@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <01Dec4.151208est.119070@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <20011209023949.ERLB16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011207202331.02bcb1c0@mail.zipcon.net> 615 Cyls, 4 heads, 17 SPT - ST225 :) At 10:49 PM 12/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >On December 7, UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > As I recall, the q2020 has the same geometry as the Seagate st225 > > (620/4/17).?? > > I think that's 614 cylinders for the ST225. > > Oh GOD why do I remember that? Can't I recycle those brain cells? > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 8 21:52:38 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff (Ethan Dicks) References: <20011209034428.54502.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15378.57350.504557.891507@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 8, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Aluminium = non-magnetic Iron = magnetic in terms of marginal > > shielding from external fields. > > Do para-magnetic cows go "mu"? You are a sick, sick man. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 21:54:18 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <20011209035418.77711.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Here's what you need to do to get reliable results from Apple drives: > > > And I am probably a good test of real world abuse to the Apple Drive ][ > > drives, as I was just a wee child, and I didn't follow any rules that > > I probably should have... My former boss at Software Productions (we wrote kiddie software for home computers under the Reader's Digest label) put a story in an early version of the docs of how he fired up his Apple ][ to run CP/M and the disk drive made odd noises... he took it in for service and the tech extracted fragments of a Peanut Butter & Jelly sandwich. Seems his kids were playing games and eating PB&J and decided the computer must be hungry, too... It's not just oatmeal in the VCR... -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From louiss at gate.net Sat Dec 8 22:15:46 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <20011209034618.48673.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:46:18 -0800 (PST), Ethan Dicks wrote: #I also liked the fact that the PET did not need boot disks. I saw that #as a major source of problems watching my friends sort through piles of #Apple floppies, looking for a DOS3.3 disk. They probably existed, but I don't recall ever seeing a non-bootable program disk for an Apple II. And data disks are not much use without program disks. Of course, putting the DOS in the drive's ROM somewhat limits your choices as to an OS. If you recall, with an add-on card or two, an Apple could run DOS 3.3, ProDOS, CP/M, OS-9, MS-DOS (needed an add-on drive as well) and probably some other OS that I have forgotten. Louis From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 8 22:02:08 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Seeking info and parts for MicroVax II BA123 Message-ID: Well, after all the talk about a MicroVax II BA123 on the list lately, I managed to unbury mine. It appears to be all original except for 2 hard drives that may have been added as an upgrade. All the boards match up with the DEC sticker with handwritten board numbers. It has the standard cpu board, what seems to be a 2mb ram board, a serial interface board w/ 8 ports, and the standard scsi and tape interface boards. It also has some sort of loopback board in the upper 3rd slot. Does anyone have a link to reference info on these boards? I'd like to find a pair of 8mb ram boards and a network interface for this thing, so I can put it back in service for open source software development/testing. I don't know the part numbers for these boards, so any extra info would be great. I'm also looking for the door that covers the front control panel, as this machine seems to have lost its door at some point before I rescued it. If anyone has any of these parts laying around, please drop me an email. I'm more then willing to pay shipping. I really don't think I have much of anything anyone here would want as a trade, so I'm willing to pay for the parts too if required. Another interesting tidbit about this box, it still has its inventory sticker from NASA, and it orig cost good old uncle sam $22,000+. Anyone else wonder why they didn't have it outfitted with a network interface of somesort, especially with it costing that much already? -Toth From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 8 22:02:24 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: OT: on-air closed captioning and lost carriers In-Reply-To: <20011209023949.ERLB16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: <20011209023949.ERLB16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: This is off topic but thought some of you might find it interesting. I actually started laughing when I saw it and my wife couldn't figure out what I was laughing at. We were watching the figure skating competition that was being broadcast from the MCI Center in Washington D.C. tonight. She always has the closed-captioning turned on and suddenly a 'no carrier' popped up on the screen. A few seconds later it was followed by a 'RING' and then almost immediately it was followed by a 'Connect 1200'. It would appear that whomever was doing the captioning was doing it remotely and lost the connection and that the computer they were connected to was broadcasting anything that was transmitted, including error messages. This brings back memories of connecting by older modems to BBS systems, as well as memories of occasionally seeing a GURU error when an Amiga on a Cable TV station would crash. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 8 22:18:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Shugart hard disk info References: <20011209023949.ERLB16411.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <000901c18068$832b6d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Shugart hard disk info > Kinda sounds like a Quantum Q2020. I had one with a sasi board mounted on > it back in 93'. Has a smoked plastic mech cover and a whole bunch of > warning stickers indicating it can remove digits if you dink with it while > open? I used a CSS Black Box for an interface. Sasi drives (and most scsi > bridge controllers) require specific formatting code. Also, iirc, sasi > devices required a dos-level bad sector map of the drive. In other words, > the dos you use scans the drive and creates a file occupying all the bad > sectors detected. The hardware didn't do that as with most (all?) scsi > drives/bridge controllers. > Shugart also made drives fitting this description, though I don't believe the Shugart drives extracted the clock for you as ISTR the Quantum drives did. Both drive types had a 4.34 MHz data rate and a 3125 RPM index rate, though. The bridge controllers didn't do the media flaw or the bad-sector management for you. The drive maker sent a defect list with the drive and, since the format was up to the controller, and the number and size of sectors were for you to choose, in some cases, they couldn't do bad sector mangement because that was your job via the system software and utilities. Since the bad spots fell on different sectors with differing sector sizes, the controller couldn't know in advance where the defects lay. > > As I recall, the q2020 has the same geometry as the Seagate st225 (620/4/17).?? > IIRC, the Q20xx series had 512 cylinders and 2, 4, or 8 heads. I may yet have a data sheet for that series, as I have one or two of each model, still. > > The q2020 is an 8" 20mb unformatted drive which yields 16mb (more or less) > when formatted and has a 40ms average seek time. > > Mine had an aluminum cased ps bolted to it and the drive stood on it's > side. > > Regards, > > Jeff > From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 8 22:06:00 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple DuoDisk (was Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff) In-Reply-To: <20011209034748.79050.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a DuoDisk but no cable. What pins were used? I think I _might_ > have a cable that was sacrificed to the Amiga gods by having one of the > pins broken out of one end for use as a modem cable (since the Amiga puts > voltage on some of the pins). It was a stupid thing to do, but it was > more than 10 years ago when Apple stuff was underappreciated. > > Anyone have an Apple part number for a DuoDisk cable? Will a 25-pin > straight-through work? I've got one buried *somewhere*, and can look for it if no one else here has any info on it. -Toth From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Dec 8 22:18:48 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: iPDS questions Message-ID: <15c.578d8cd.29444028@aol.com> In a message dated 12/8/01 7:23:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > I just found a working iPDS system, complete > with documentation and some software. Unfortunately I don't think a lot of > it is still readable. I did get the system to boot and pass all > diagnostics. > > I know nothing about these beasties, from looking at the doc's it's > obviously i8085 based with 64k RAM. It's got a single 5 1/4" floppy, and > it's in a case slightly smaller than a Kaypro II. In the area behind the > CRT is a storage area for two pods that each handle two different sizes of > PROMs, these plug into a hole in the right side of the case. > Hi Zane; Nice find. I just dug out a couple iPDSs out of my storage locker that I am getting ready for sale. I may be interested in some copies of the documentation. I also have some disks but have not checked their condition. You are right that they are 8085 systems. Besides EPROM programmers there was also an EMV 51 emulator pod for IIRC debugging the 8051. There are also external floppy disk drives that daisy chain to it. It also ran CPM. I believe Fred's Xenocopy program will copy diskettes for it. IIRC they are standard 360K DSDD drives. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011208/25d6c3e1/attachment.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 8 13:42:07 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: testing References: Message-ID: <3C126D0F.D2C7FF6D@jetnet.ab.ca> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Charlie Root wrote: > > > testing > > > > testing 1..2..3... > > PCW not testing 0 , 1 , 10 , 11 , 100 -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 8 22:59:56 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Seeking info and parts for MicroVax II BA123 In-Reply-To: Seeking info and parts for MicroVax II BA123 (Tothwolf) References: Message-ID: <15378.61388.64863.670347@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 8, Tothwolf wrote: > Another interesting tidbit about this box, it still has its inventory > sticker from NASA, and it orig cost good old uncle sam $22,000+. Anyone > else wonder why they didn't have it outfitted with a network interface of > somesort, especially with it costing that much already? Not at all. Not all computers are used as part of networks, you know. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 8 23:06:14 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <20011209035418.77711.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C12F146.F2A4E21D@internet1.net> My uncle's 286.... this was when a 286 was expensive..... got Playdoe inserted into one of the floppy drives by my cousin. This is of course when PC floppy drives were still quite expensive :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ethan Dicks wrote: > My former boss at Software Productions (we wrote kiddie software for home > computers under the Reader's Digest label) put a story in an early > version of the docs of how he fired up his Apple ][ to run CP/M and the > disk drive made odd noises... he took it in for service and the tech > extracted fragments of a Peanut Butter & Jelly sandwich. Seems his kids > were playing games and eating PB&J and decided the computer must be hungry, > too... > > It's not just oatmeal in the VCR... > > -ethan From korpela at cyclops.ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Dec 8 23:11:58 2001 From: korpela at cyclops.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from Louis Schulman at "Dec 8, 2001 11:15:46 pm" Message-ID: <200112090511.VAA04266@cyclops.ssl.berkeley.edu> > They probably existed, but I don't recall ever seeing a non-bootable program disk for an Apple II. And data > disks are not much use without program disks. You needed to use a special disk in order to not include DOS on an Apple disk. It did free up a small bit of space. Apple's minimalist DOS was so small it was rarely worth the effort. Program loads didn't obliterate the resident portion of DOS. CP/M on the other hand took significant disk and RAM space for the DOS and command interpreter, portions of which were lost on program load and needed to be reloaded on return to the OS. Eric From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 8 23:23:25 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from Louis Schulman at "Dec 8, 1 11:15:46 pm" Message-ID: <200112090523.VAA10636@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Of course, putting the DOS in the drive's ROM somewhat limits your choices > as to an OS. If you recall, with > an add-on card or two, an Apple could run DOS 3.3, ProDOS, CP/M, OS-9, > MS-DOS (needed an add-on drive as well) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's cheating, of course. I don't remember if PETs could be coerced into it, but C64s can run CP/M 2.2 just fine with an add-on Z80 cartridge. They just can't read the MFM disks, but neither can the Apple CP/M IIRC. There's nothing about having a sidecar intelligent peripheral that's per se limiting about what choices you have for an OS. Besides, if you really wanted a custom DOS on a Commodore drive, you can either load the DOS into drive RAM and have it execute there, or make the drive just a serial slave and feed data to the Commodore for processing. Most custom Commodore formats did the former. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Intel outside -- 6502 inside! ---------------------------------------------- From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Dec 8 23:07:03 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: barred from using MULTINET (sigh!) References: <3C126207.2070000@aurora.regenstrief.org> <002b01c1801d$fe1b6660$75469280@y5f3q8> <20011208143257.G1538@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3C126EB9.6040803@aurora.regenstrief.org> <004101c18024$02fe9020$75469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: <3C12F177.2060406@aurora.regenstrief.org> Robert Schaefer wrote: >>Here is what you do: If you have a TK70 writable tape, you simply >>do SAVE EEPROM for those processors that you will update. Then >>switch to the processor with the prevailing EEPROM image and say >>UPDATE or UPDATE ALL ... can't remember off the bat here. Just make >>sure you upgrade them all to the most recent revision. >> > > I'd like to archive a copy of all (both?!?) the versions I have, just to > keep the bits from fading away. Only trouble is, I only have one, suspect, > TK70 tape. You can use TK50 tape as well. Just put them under a bulk-eraser first. It is said that the media is actually physically the same, just different labels. > If I had ole' Betsy booting into NetBSD, I'd just dd an image of > the tape and reuse it each time, but she don't, and I dunno if it's even > possible to make a bit-for-bit copy of anything under VMS. It's less difficult than you think. But I know just what you mean, VMS is just trying to be too clever :-). But you can do binary copies, just do this: $ MOUNT/FOREIGN/BLOCK=512/RECORD=512 MUC6: $ COPY MUC6: FILE.001 $ COPY MUC6: FILE.002 Now you don't know off hand what the block size on the tape is. I think, if you pick a block size smaller than the tape's, you will receive error messages. Experiment with it a little bit. Analogously, copy as many files as you can, for you don't know how many files the SAVE EEPROM command has written. -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 8 23:10:55 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Apple DuoDisk (was Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff) References: <20011209034748.79050.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C12F25F.A4DD5513@internet1.net> 590-0114 is printed on the computer end of my cable. That end only has 19 pins..... didn't look at the other side. I didn't feel like pulling the computer out from the wall and digging up a screw driver to unhook it. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ethan Dicks wrote: > Anyone have an Apple part number for a DuoDisk cable? Will a 25-pin > straight-through work? > > -ethan From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Dec 8 23:21:53 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: VAX 8650 want a good home ... Message-ID: <3C12F4F1.9060602@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I know where there are probably several VAX 8600s and 8650s and a good deal more stuff. My plan is to organize a treck that runs from south-central US through mid-west to NY. So, if you live along the way and dream of some big iron, here is your chance. The thing would not be for the taking, but presumably $200-$400 (just a bit above scrap value) would be it. regards, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 9 11:10:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Available: CDTV + extras In-Reply-To: <3C137187.CB7352B1@home.com> References: <3C137187.CB7352B1@home.com> Message-ID: I have available a Commodore CDTV with keyboard, both wired and ifra-red mice, and the standard remote control. I also have the black Roctec floppy for the CDTV, but we'd have to talk about that one. The keyboard isn't the standard CDTV keyboard that came with the Pro Pack, as it looks like it was painted black and it has the beige/white keys of the standard Amiga keyboards. It has the NTSC video card installed, which includes composite, S-video, and RF outputs. The only problem with this CDTV is that the CD-ROM isn't responding and the button is missing from the RESET button. Otherwise it boots Workbench off of an external floppy drive just fine. I just canceled the listing for this item on eBay as my original intention was to offer it here first but the list had been down. Because of the problems with the CD-ROM, I'm not looking to get much for it. In fact, if you want only the CDTV unit itself, I'd let it go for just shipping costs. I have another fully functional CDTV with Pro Pack and Genlock and don't need both. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 9 15:16:24 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Seeking info and parts for MicroVax II BA123 References: <15378.61388.64863.670347@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <004901c180f6$c2143960$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Anyone else wonder why they didn't have it outfitted with a {NIU}...? Maybe it was a secured device from the clean room, in that case you wouldn't want it networked. John A. And the agents will be over to see you shortly. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 9 04:22:32 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff" (Dec 8, 19:44) References: <20011209034428.54502.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10112091022.ZM12092@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 8, 19:44, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- John Lawson wrote: > > Aluminium = non-magnetic Iron = magnetic in terms of marginal > > shielding from external fields. > > Do para-magnetic cows go "mu"? Oh, no, the list has been back up for an hour and already we have bad puns :-) Well done, Jay! I saw the archive come back a while ago, and I wondered when you'd get the list done. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 9 05:26:59 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: barred from using MULTINET (sigh!) In-Reply-To: <3C12F177.2060406@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <200112091126.fB9BQxf00554@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 9 Dec, Gunther Schadow wrote: >> Only trouble is, I only have one, suspect, TK70 tape. > You can use TK50 tape as well. Just put them under a bulk-eraser > first. It is said that the media is actually physically the same, > just different labels. AFAIK the media is different. Bulk erased TK50 tapes will work like TK70, but they will be (probably) not reliable. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Dec 9 17:13:06 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: barred from using MULTINET (sigh!) References: <200112091126.fB9BQxf00554@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3C13F002.78B3E225@idirect.com> >jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > >On 9 Dec, Gunther Schadow wrote: > >> Only trouble is, I only have one, suspect, TK70 tape. > > You can use TK50 tape as well. Just put them under a bulk-eraser > > first. It is said that the media is actually physically the same, > > just different labels. > AFAIK the media is different. Bulk erased TK50 tapes will work like > TK70, but they will be (probably) not reliable. > tschuess, Jochen > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz Jerome Fine replies: Memorex used to have a web site that listed all the properties of DECTape (i.e. I for the TK50 with the name in brown) on the plastic holder and DECTape II (II i.e. for the TK70). The actual magnetic and physical properties for the tape were identical. The only difference that I could ever see between a DECTape and a DECTape II was that the name for the first was in BROWN and the name for the second was in BLUE. Now, there must be a very fancy colour recognition detector on the TK70 tape drive since I understand that after DECTape is used on a TK50, I have seen the TK70 tape drive automatically place the drive in WRITE PROTECT mode ASAP. Now I know that a bulk erase does confuse the TK70 over this aspect and that blank tapes which have never been in a TK50 are also OK in the TK70. (I won't belabour the point. Yes, I realize that the TK50 does write a tracking code of some kind on the tape which the TK70 is programmed to NOT overwrite. Typical DEC behaviour.) I have used the TK50 tapes (after a bulk erase) in a TK70 for several years now and have had no additional problems related the using a DECTape instead of a DECTape II in the TK70 tape drive. By the way, the two advantages of the TK70 is that: (a) It allows the tape to hold up to 4 times as must data. In my case, I can get 8.75 RT-11 partitions on a TK70 tape (I actually write only 8 full partitions) of 32 MBytes each using BUP in RT-11 (block size of 8192 bytes). Can anyone reading this suggest if going to a larger blocking factor might get me up to 9 full partitions? (b) The controller must have a buffer of some kind which holds the next block of data automatically. When I do a "/VERIFY:ONLY" operation in BUP under RT-11, the total time to process one partition of 32 MBytes is about 7.5 minutes - which is also about the same time to write that same 32 MBytes. I suspect that due to streaming considerations, the firmware on the TK70 keeps accepting data from at least the next record of data on the tape while the CPU is comparing the last n records from the hard disk drive. If the CPU then commands the controller to issue a request for the next record of data within a reasonable window of opportunity (not sure how long that might be - maybe even more than one record - I know if I was writing the firmware I would fill all the buffers that were available after doing double that number of sequential reads), then the streaming mode is not lost and the tape is kept in motion continually. Contrast this with about 19 minutes to write a partition on the TK50 and over a hour (I gave up before even one was complete) with a "/VERIFY:ONLY" operation. So I really do disagree that they DECTape II is any different from the DECTape except for the BLUE and BROWN labels - unless you consider the price that DEC charged to also be a difference. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Dec 9 11:43:13 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:38 2005 Subject: VAX 8650 want a good home ... In-Reply-To: <3C12F4F1.9060602@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I know where there are probably several VAX 8600s and 8650s > and a good deal more stuff. My plan is to organize a treck > that runs from south-central US through mid-west to NY. So, > if you live along the way and dream of some big iron, here > is your chance. The thing would not be for the taking, but > presumably $200-$400 (just a bit above scrap value) would be > it. If you don't get any takers, perhaps I could convince you to ship some cards to Sweden, where we have an 8650 up and running at our computer club... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Dec 9 12:26:51 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200112090511.VAA04266@cyclops.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "Dec 8, 2001 09:11:58 pm" Message-ID: <200112091826.KAA14884@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > They probably existed, but I don't recall ever seeing a non-bootable program disk for an Apple II. And data > > disks are not much use without program disks. > > You needed to use a special disk in order to not include DOS on an Apple ^^^^ I must have been tired. This should have said program. Eric > > disk. It did free up a small bit of space. Apple's minimalist DOS was so > small it was rarely worth the effort. Program loads didn't obliterate the > resident portion of DOS. > > CP/M on the other hand took significant disk and RAM space for the DOS and > command interpreter, portions of which were lost on program load and needed > to be reloaded on return to the OS. > > Eric From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 9 12:53:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <200112091826.KAA14884@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <000b01c180e2$c26a5fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Since the OS provided file and byte I/O system functions for applications to call, only the console command interpreter was reloaded on exit, and that only when the application was large. I guess this was an issue for CP/M systems that didn't have the full 64K of RAM, but I never worked with one that didn't for more than half a day. Vector and Northstar systems, and probably a few others that maintained a ROM BASIC may have had less RAM, but my own experience started and ended with 64K RAM under CP/M. On the Apple, the DOS had to be smaller, since there was only 48K of RAM unless the extra 16K was present. on an add-on card. Of course, when the 16K board was present, it was often so that CP/M could be used via the Z80 board. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J. Korpela" To: Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:26 AM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > > > They probably existed, but I don't recall ever seeing a non-bootable program disk for an Apple II. And data > > > disks are not much use without program disks. > > > > You needed to use a special disk in order to not include DOS on an Apple > ^^^^ I must have been tired. This should have > said program. > > Eric > > > > disk. It did free up a small bit of space. Apple's minimalist DOS was so > > small it was rarely worth the effort. Program loads didn't obliterate the > > resident portion of DOS. > > > > CP/M on the other hand took significant disk and RAM space for the DOS and > > command interpreter, portions of which were lost on program load and needed > > to be reloaded on return to the OS. > > > > Eric > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 12:38:20 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011209183820.52725.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Louis Schulman wrote: > On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:46:18 -0800 (PST), Ethan Dicks wrote: > > #I also liked the fact that the PET did not need boot disks. I saw that > #as a major source of problems watching my friends sort through piles of > #Apple floppies, looking for a DOS3.3 disk. > > They probably existed, but I don't recall ever seeing a non-bootable > program disk for an Apple II. And data > disks are not much use without program disks. I remember booting up on a master and running stuff from disks with just program files/data files in many cases (some games you _had_ to boot). For example, I don't think the Scott Adams text adventures came on a bootable disk from Adventure International - why should they pay for a license, after all. I did not ever own them for the Apple, just the PET (on cassette), so can't guarantee what the distribution looked like. > Of course, putting the DOS in the drive's ROM somewhat limits your > choices as to an OS. True, but back in those days, that wasn't a fatal limitation. Besides, the 8-bitters didn't really have a OS, more of a structured program loader. If all you need to do is read in executables and read/write data files, you don't need a full OS. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 9 12:56:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <20011209183820.52725.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001101c180e3$383c6c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There were a few that used "structured program loaders" as you call them, but CP/M certainly was more than that. I guess there were many things that fell between those limits. I occasionally saw an Apple system used with one drive for the boot diskette, one for the program, with overlays, and one or two for data. That required a second controller at the time, though ISTR that later controllers, e.g. Rana Systems' version supported four drives. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > > --- Louis Schulman wrote: > > On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:46:18 -0800 (PST), Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > #I also liked the fact that the PET did not need boot disks. I saw that > > #as a major source of problems watching my friends sort through piles of > > #Apple floppies, looking for a DOS3.3 disk. > > > > They probably existed, but I don't recall ever seeing a non-bootable > > program disk for an Apple II. And data > > disks are not much use without program disks. > > I remember booting up on a master and running stuff from disks > with just program files/data files in many cases (some games > you _had_ to boot). For example, I don't think the Scott Adams > text adventures came on a bootable disk from Adventure International - > why should they pay for a license, after all. I did not ever own > them for the Apple, just the PET (on cassette), so can't guarantee > what the distribution looked like. > > > Of course, putting the DOS in the drive's ROM somewhat limits your > > choices as to an OS. > > True, but back in those days, that wasn't a fatal limitation. Besides, > the 8-bitters didn't really have a OS, more of a structured program > loader. If all you need to do is read in executables and read/write > data files, you don't need a full OS. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 9 13:16:31 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <20011209183820.52725.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C13B88F.CE4AFC9C@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > True, but back in those days, that wasn't a fatal limitation. Besides, > the 8-bitters didn't really have a OS, more of a structured program > loader. If all you need to do is read in executables and read/write > data files, you don't need a full OS. In retospect I would say people expected BASIC to run rom. I/O was a feature only used to save your programs, maybe even data. The Apple,TRS-80?,Pets,C64's,Coco's,IBM-PC all come to mind. CP/M was the most common real OS, but lets not forget about 6800/6809 machines running FLEX or OS/9. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 9 16:27:27 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <3C13B88F.CE4AFC9C@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20011209183820.52725.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> <3C13B88F.CE4AFC9C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >CP/M was the most common real OS, but lets not forget about >6800/6809 machines running FLEX or OS/9. And with both Uniflex and OS/9 you could have a multi-user, multitasking operating system on a 6809 in as little as 56k of RAM. FLEX runs nicely on this S/09 but I would still love to find the SWTPc version of OS/9 for it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 15:18:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <20011209183820.52725.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 9, 1 10:38:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 295 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/7be70d42/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Dec 9 18:30:07 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 9, 1 09:18:48 pm" Message-ID: <200112100030.QAA12478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > True, but back in those days, that wasn't a fatal limitation. Besides, > > the 8-bitters didn't really have a OS, more of a structured program > I'm not sure I'd call OS-9 a 'structured program loader'. It does most of > what I'd expect a real OS to do :-) And it runs on 8 bit machines. This reminds me of a question I never got answered, since I'm poor with 6809 stuff. Has OS-9 been ported to a 6502-based architecture? I wouldn't expect binary compatibility, of course, but since you always hear OS-9 in connection with CoCos and such, you'd think the CoCo had a monopoly on it. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my tarantula is getting neutered." ------- From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Dec 9 12:35:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A8E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Is there a hidden switch or fuse or something in there? That's what it looks > like... Failing that, someone got directions for checking out an 11/44 > power supply? Apples and Oranges, but Primes have an A/C distribution box in the back that the big round A/C plug goes into... this whole box removes from the chassis, and when disassembled, reveals a fuse inside along with something that looks like an EMI filter. The fuse is replaceable without soldering... ...but this is a Prime, not a PDP-11/44, but I'd look for something similar... -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 13:28:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <13697572560.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Dec 8, 1 06:13:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4044 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/c7b078de/attachment.ksh From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Dec 9 14:41:28 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <13697572560.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011209153952.00b18e78@mail.wincom.net> At 06:13 PM 12/8/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Same machine, new problem. ^_^ > >Whilst out in the garage playing with the 44 (which I still don't >have an OS for...), my kid sister and one of her friends come >out to the garage to smoke. (They're not allowed to smoke in the house.) >Anyway, while the 44 is running, her friend says, "Wow, that's loud!", >to which Monica replies "This one's louder!" and turns on the KS10... > >You know what's coming. And we had christmas tree packages and such all >over the garage, too, so navigating the garage in the dark was real fun... > >(For those who didn't see it coming, the garage breaker went...) > >Anyway, after resetting the breaker, waiting for the VAX to reboot, >checking that the KS10 was still in working order (I wouldn't be >mailing if the KS10 was broken. I'd be busy burying my sister. ^_^) >and putting back all the boxes I stepped on or knocked over, it >was discovered that the 11/44 no longer powered on. The power control >lights are on, the RX02 and SCSI disks inside the case work, but >the BA11 (Is that the right part?) will not turn on. When you turn the >switch on the front panel, nothing happens. No click, no fans, nothing. >The breaker on the back of the BA11 did not trip. I turned it off and >back on, nothing happened. I ran the AC power checks in the manual and >nothing happened. I checked the front-panel wiring was still connected, >it was. I pulled and reseated the front-panel control board in the >UNIBUS. Nada. It looks like it should be working, it doesn't smell burnt, >and I opened the top of the BA11 power supply and looked inside, and >it looks really scary (what, with the THIS VOLTAGE WILL KILL YOU stickers >and wires thick as my fingers and whatnot...) but it doesn't look burnt. > >Is there a hidden switch or fuse or something in there? That's what it looks >like... Failing that, someone got directions for checking out an 11/44 >power supply? >------- Respectfully suggest, use your kid sister to probe the voltage points. Cheers Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario, Canada, N8Y3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From Diff at Mac.com Sun Dec 9 15:37:38 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011209153952.00b18e78@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <000c01c180f9$b997cd30$6501a8c0@laboffice> > Respectfully suggest, use your kid sister to probe the voltage points. Waiting for the inevitable McGuire "is she cute?". Zach From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 9 15:38:20 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: Re: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) (Zach Malone) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011209153952.00b18e78@mail.wincom.net> <000c01c180f9$b997cd30$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <15379.55756.84560.499930@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 9, Zach Malone wrote: > > Respectfully suggest, use your kid sister to probe the voltage > points. > > Waiting for the inevitable McGuire "is she cute?". I try to reserve that for the rescue list...less "offendable" crowd over there. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 9 16:49:58 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <15379.55756.84560.499930@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) (Zach Malone) <5.1.0.14.0.20011209153952.00b18e78@mail.wincom.net> <000c01c180f9$b997cd30$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: >On December 9, Zach Malone wrote: >> > Respectfully suggest, use your kid sister to probe the voltage >> points. >> >> Waiting for the inevitable McGuire "is she cute?". > > I try to reserve that for the rescue list...less "offendable" crowd >over there. ;) > > -Dave I'll have you know I'm offended by the accusation that we're easily offended around here! :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 9 17:20:52 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: Re: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) (Zane H. Healy) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011209153952.00b18e78@mail.wincom.net> <000c01c180f9$b997cd30$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <15379.61908.784561.641651@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 9, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> > Respectfully suggest, use your kid sister to probe the voltage > >> points. > >> > >> Waiting for the inevitable McGuire "is she cute?". > > > > I try to reserve that for the rescue list...less "offendable" crowd > >over there. ;) > > I'll have you know I'm offended by the accusation that we're easily > offended around here! :^) Well, by way of explanation... My trademark on the rescue list is to say "Is she cute?" for ANY mention of any sister, wife, female coworker, any female at all. Somehow I didn't think that'd go over very well on this list. In spite of the unbelievably long off-topic threads that occur here, this is definitely a much less "social" and more "down to business" mailing list. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Dec 9 18:22:16 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <15379.61908.784561.641651@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 9, 1 06:20:52 pm" Message-ID: <200112100022.QAA12804@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > > > Respectfully suggest, use your kid sister to probe the voltage > > > > > points. > > > > Waiting for the inevitable McGuire "is she cute?". > > > I try to reserve that for the rescue list...less "offendable" crowd > > > over there. ;) > > I'll have you know I'm offended by the accusation that we're easily > > offended around here! :^) > Well, by way of explanation... My trademark on the rescue list is to > say "Is she cute?" for ANY mention of any sister, wife, female > coworker, any female at all. Okay, so, *is* she cute? ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- It is the business of the future to be dangerous. -- Hawkwind -------------- From dmabry at mich.com Sun Dec 9 12:58:45 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: iPDS questions References: Message-ID: <3C13B465.E9961992@mich.com> I have one of these machines and at one time used it extensively for developing. I'll try to answer your questions off the top of my head, hoping that the cobwebs aren't too thick. The iPDS was Intel's "Portable Development System" or "Personal Development System"...not sure which was the official name. It was 8085-based with 64k of ram. It also had a separate 8085 doing the keyboard scanning/debouncing, some I/O, and the crt function. There was an optional second processor board that you could install and it became a true dual processor machine. You could switch between the two processors with a hot key. Both processors could be independently compiling, editing, debugging, etc. It had four internal connectors for iSBX modules which were small daughter boards that Intel standardized for their Multibus. The iPDS and its operating system, ISIS-PDS, could boot from a bubble memory module on an iSBX module. I had mine set up so one processor would boot ISIS-PDS from the bubble and the other processor would boot CP/M from the diskette drive. I also installed some enhanced firmware into the processor that controlled the keyboard and crt that allowed type-ahead. Something that we take for granted for many years now, but it was a cool feature for the time. The plug in modules that went into the side of the computer allowed you to use a sort of mini in-circuit-emulator for 8051 and one for the 8088. Intel called them "emulation vehicles". As I recall, they were pretty nice products, only lacking a big trace memory from thier big brothers. EMV-51 and EMV-88. You could also plug into that side connector any of the EPROM programming modules that Intel sold for their stand-alone programmer called the iUPP (Universal Prom Programmer). For some reason, maybe because I don't have anything better to do (that's what I've been accused of), I have resurrected my iPDS recently and after a few fixes it now works. I probably have just about every piece of software that ever ran on it in the ISIS-PDS world. In the old days I wrote a BIOS for CP/M Plus for it, even utilizing a time-of-day clock iSBX module from Zendex so it automatically knew time and date. I've yet to replace the battery on that module to see if it still works. If anyone would like copies of any of the software I have for that machine, e-mail me privately (or on the list if you prefer) and I'll see what I can do for you. Oh yea, the diskettes were 80 track (96 tpi) double sided. I think the capacity was about 640k. I replaced the one full-height drive in mine with two half-height drives. Then I made the full height one into an external drive that plugged into the connector on the back. "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I'm sure glad to see the list is back up, I originally tried the following > message on Tuesday. I still don't know anything more about the system. > Unfortunatly it's been raining really hard around here since Tuesday, so > the system is still sitting at work, and I've not really been able to > examine it. > > Zane > > I'm still a little shocked. I just found a working iPDS system, complete > with documentation and some software. Unfortunatly I don't think a lot of > it is still readable. I did get the system to boot and pass all > diagnostics. > > I know nothing about these beasties, from looking at the doc's it's > obviously i8085 based with 64k RAM. It's got a single 5 1/4" floppy, and > it's in a case slightly smaller than a Kaypro II. In the area behind the > CRT is a storage area for two pods that each handle two different sizes of > PROMs, these plug into a hole in the right side of the case. > > What on earth filesystem are the floppies? Are any kind of software images > available to replace the dead floppies? Is there any software to read and > write to the floppies from MS-DOS? > > Basically the main thing I'm interested in is the systems ability to read > and write PROMs. I wouldn't mind being able to use this to support my DEC > hardware :^) > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 9 13:13:42 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: iPDS questions In-Reply-To: Re: iPDS questions (Dave Mabry) References: <3C13B465.E9961992@mich.com> Message-ID: <15379.47078.15228.57241@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 9, Dave Mabry wrote: > There was an optional second processor board that you could install > and it became a true dual processor machine. You could switch > between the two processors with a hot key. Both processors could be > independently compiling, editing, debugging, etc. Oh now THAT is cool. :-) Anybody know of any other systems to implement this sort of of functionality? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 9 13:52:25 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: iPDS questions In-Reply-To: <15379.47078.15228.57241@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: iPDS questions (Dave Mabry) <3C13B465.E9961992@mich.com> Message-ID: >On December 9, Dave Mabry wrote: >> There was an optional second processor board that you could install >> and it became a true dual processor machine. You could switch >> between the two processors with a hot key. Both processors could be >> independently compiling, editing, debugging, etc. > > Oh now THAT is cool. :-) Agreed, I can't wait to get my system home so I can start playing with it. > Anybody know of any other systems to implement this sort of of >functionality? The DEC Rainbow has two different CPU's in it, however, I don't know if you can run different stuff on each one at the same time. IIRC, it has a Z80 and a 8086 so you can run different software (sort of like the Commodore 128 running Commodore or CP/M software). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 9 14:05:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: iPDS questions In-Reply-To: Re: iPDS questions (Zane H. Healy) References: <3C13B465.E9961992@mich.com> Message-ID: <15379.50187.815150.150612@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 9, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Anybody know of any other systems to implement this sort of of > >functionality? > > The DEC Rainbow has two different CPU's in it, however, I don't know if you > can run different stuff on each one at the same time. IIRC, it has a Z80 > and a 8086 so you can run different software (sort of like the > Commodore 128 running Commodore or CP/M software). I thought that was an 8088...but as far as I'm aware you can't run them independently. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 15:23:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: iPDS questions In-Reply-To: <15379.50187.815150.150612@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 9, 1 03:05:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 799 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/c0e93d06/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Dec 9 15:24:37 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: iPDS questions Message-ID: <200112092124.fB9LOdf07671@ns2.ezwind.net> >> There was an optional second processor board that you could install >> and it became a true dual processor machine. You could switch >> between the two processors with a hot key. Both processors could be >> independently compiling, editing, debugging, etc. > > Oh now THAT is cool. :-) > > Anybody know of any other systems to implement this sort of of >functionality? The same concept is used for the Mac's and their PC cards. The Intel chip is placed on a card, and it runs independant of the mac (but shares some features like drive controller, stuff like that). You swap between them with a hot key, and you can have things running on each (ie: start something heavy on the Mac, swap to windows/dos/whatever OS you are running, it is a true Intel compatible setup, and run things there.) Swap between as much as you want, each will continue to run, being blissfully unaware the other is there. Connection between the two is nice, you can have shared folders between them. The Mac will view it as a folder, the PC will view it as an additionally available drive. And you can cut and paste between the two. Very nice setup, too bad Apple abondoned them, and stopped upgrading the driver software, so they don't work too well past System 7.6.1 (they will work under OS 8 and 9, but some problems can arise) -chris From fcharp at rogers.com Sun Dec 9 13:10:27 2001 From: fcharp at rogers.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 Console & cards Message-ID: <006601c180e5$299ebea0$6501010a@charp> Hi, I have sitting on my shelf a PDP 11/34 working unit rescued from the recyclers. The system was operational when decomissioned. Caveat: no power supply. So the pieces or the whole are up for grabs, shipping costs only. I thought they may be of interest to the right people, since most of the boards were original DEC. I also have a CD-ROM full of DEC maintenance and service documents for the PDP series. Any interest in that, ask for details. Be aware that I live in Ottawa, Canada. Here is the list of cards found in there. I am not sure it is complete, because I may have listed only the ones I could actually recognize. PDP 11/34 CARDS DIGITAL M7762 RL11 U RX01 floppy disk controller M7856 DL11-W U SLU and realtime clock M7859 U 11/34 programmable console interface M8256 RX211 U RX02 floppy disk controller M8265 KD11-EA U 11/34A processor data paths M8266 KD11-EA U 11/34A processor microcode module M8267 FP11-A U 11/34A floating point processor M9202 U UNIBUS connector, inverted (M9192+M9292 assembled M9202 1" apart with 2' cable) M9312 U Bootstrap and terminator module OTHER Dataram Corp U 256K DRAM board The system was obviously well cared for and was not even dusty. The console board is the one that includes an Intel 8008 processor. The system case and front-end are impeccable. I don't collect PDP equipment, but I hate to see a nice system go to the junkyard. At the same time, I need to make room for other masterpieces in peril. Cheers, Frederic Charpentier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/0d9f5fce/attachment.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 13:26:45 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 Console & cards In-Reply-To: <006601c180e5$299ebea0$6501010a@charp> Message-ID: <20011209192645.55983.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Frederic Charpentier wrote: > DIGITAL > > M7762 RL11 U RX01 floppy disk > controller RL01/RL02 controller... still a nice card to have. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From fcharp at rogers.com Sun Dec 9 14:16:47 2001 From: fcharp at rogers.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 Console & cards Message-ID: <00dc01c180ee$6dd54630$6501010a@charp> All, Well, that was quick. The system is spoken for. Thanks to all for their interest. Regarding the DEC service CD: in fact, there are 2 CDs. They are full of manuals and service stuff, BUT they cover more recent equipment than the PDP. The last dates on the CD are 1994, which says that there is a lot of VAX-related material on the discs, but not much with regards to PDP. My apologies. Anyway, I already had a couple of requests for them, so I guess I'll be giving the ol'burner a run for its money. Cheers, Frederic Charpentier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/eadd348a/attachment.html From meltlet at fastmail.fm Sun Dec 9 15:14:52 2001 From: meltlet at fastmail.fm (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: SMC Monitor In-Reply-To: <00dc01c180ee$6dd54630$6501010a@charp> Message-ID: Hello peeps. I picked up a nice (almost-flat screen, chunky but hidden controls with the right 'feel' etc) Monitor from college a few days ago. A google for it's pinout comes up fruitless however. The text on the back reads: VGA MONO MONITOR Model: EM-1417 Hor: 31.5KHz/35.2KHz Ver: 45Hz-85Hz The text on the front is an "SMC" logo, rendered in precisely the same way as an IBM logo. Thin blue lines - how weird! The connector is circular, with 13 pins arranged in a square matrix fashion, unlike DIN which has angled pins. Asciification: /--------U--------\ / \ / . . . . \ / \ | . . . . | | | | . . . . | \ / \ . / \ / \------------------/ Crap, but you get the point. Is it usable with a today's 'standard' VGA HD15-type card? I'm thinking crisp console here... Alex From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 13:33:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple DuoDisk (was Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff) In-Reply-To: <20011209034748.79050.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 8, 1 07:47:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 355 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/6ac7182a/attachment.ksh From csmith at amdocs.com Sun Dec 9 14:59:59 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF63@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi everybody, I remember somebody mentioning the CPT 9000 on this list recently. Since I just happen to be working on one, I thought I'd post this question here. Does anyone know where I can get some of the original software that might take advantage of the full screen-height? I have a copy of ventura publisher that was pre-installed, but I assume that its CPT9000 driver is corrupt. It works with the Herc ega driver, but with the CPT9000 driver, I just get some strange text-mode blocks. I also wonder whether anyone's tried Minix on it, and whether that might address the whole monitor? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 15:00:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 8" drives and PSUs. Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1161 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/0497d7d3/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 9 16:55:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 8" drives and PSUs. References: Message-ID: <001901c18104$a5a08fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:00 PM Subject: 8" drives and PSUs. > > > has two QumeTrak drives (242, I think -- full height 8"), one of the > > no-names has two Shugart 801 drives (single-sided only, I think), and the > > Yes, the 801s are single-sided only. 851s are the double-density > equivalents, almost. > I think you meant DOUBLE-SIDED, Tony, as the 801's are DD capable and always have been. > > > other no-name also has two QumeTrak drives. Unfortunately, the power supply > > in the no-name QumeTrak drive box literally had an LM723CN explode, breaking > > the chip in half, melting the socket, and fusing two pins to the socket. > > Is this an SMPSU? The 723 could be used to make most of the SMPSU control > circuitry (oscillator/chopper driver), but if the chopper shorts and/or > the current sense resistor in series with the chopper openes, then the > result is generally an exploding 723. So if it's an SMPSU, you want to > check all the primary side components, as usual. > The most-common linear supply used back in the 8"-drive days was the Power-One CP206, of which there were many copies, which used a 3 723's to control 3 pass transistors to regulate +5, +24, and -5/-12 (depending on jumpering). > > If it's a linear PSU, then I guess an open-circuit in the pass transistor > (b-c junction) could result in all the load current flowing via the 723 > or something nasty. That would probably make the chip explode as well, > although I've never actually had this fault. Again, check surrounding > components, particularly power transistors. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 17:39:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: 8" drives and PSUs. In-Reply-To: <001901c18104$a5a08fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Dec 9, 1 03:55:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 461 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/85deda21/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 15:02:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1351 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/5a7554dc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 15:05:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Bubble sorts have their place Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/db9cf3f8/attachment.ksh From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 9 16:22:19 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: IBM 3274-61C controller Message-ID: Well after some searching I find that this monster is a "controller" (I guess a terminal or network controller). Anyway I'm taking offers (shipping would be added to the offer unless you pick up in KY) for it - condition (other than good general external condition) is unknown, haven't even put a powr cord to it yet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/8c0e4f0c/attachment.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 17:06:33 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: IBM 3274-61C controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011209230633.85564.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Russ Blakeman wrote: > Well after some searching I find that this monster is a "controller" (I > guess a terminal or network controller). It's a PU Type 2 controller for things like 3270 tubes. I don't know the differences between models off the top of my head. To use it, you would need a PU Type 4 to put it on your SNA network. We used to emulate these with the COMBOARD-SNA. > Anyway I'm taking offers (shipping would be added to the offer unless you > pick up in KY) for it - Wish I'd known... I was in Louisville for the day last weekend. > condition (other than good general external > condition) is unknown, haven't even put a powr cord to it yet. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From vance at ikickass.org Sun Dec 9 18:12:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: IBM 3274-61C controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How big is it? (It's an SNA channel-attached terminal/printer controller.) Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 16:22:19 -0600 > From: Russ Blakeman > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: Classic computers message group > Subject: IBM 3274-61C controller > > Well after some searching I find that this monster is a "controller" (I > guess a terminal or network controller). > > Anyway I'm taking offers (shipping would be added to the offer unless you > pick up in KY) for it - condition (other than good general external > condition) is unknown, haven't even put a powr cord to it yet. > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Dec 9 16:43:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Ergo KB Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A92@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Chris- Whew, sorry I forgot about you, with the list being down, the depression nuked my recall. The S&H looks like $5, so $30 will take it. You can send those government agents with my funds to: The Estopinal Group attn: Doug Quebbeman 903 Spring Street Jeffersonville, IN 47130 Again, sorry about that! Regards, -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Dec 9 17:45:18 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Ergo KB Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A93@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Chris- > > Whew, sorry I forgot about you, with the list > being down, the depression nuked my recall. Oops! Sorry, meant to press the "private send" button... again... -dq From ae at alum.mit.edu Sun Dec 9 17:23:13 2001 From: ae at alum.mit.edu (Andrew Egendorf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Remington Rand 409 (this already has been posted!) Message-ID: I am helping to gather original documents and/or artifacts concerning the Remington Rand 409-series computers for the Remington Rand 409-series museum being set up in Rowayton, CT. The models of interest are the 409-2 and the 409-2R. These are tube, punch-card, and programming panel machines from the 1950s. We are interested in documenting the location of all surviving artifacts, but also would like to acquire particularly interesting items by donation or purchase. We are looking specifically for anything related to the programming of these machines, such as the programming panels, programming manuals, or the programming jumper wires. Photographs or drawings of programming panels (originals or reproduced in third-party publications), with or without programs wired on them, also would be of interest. If you have any of the above, or have more general items such as Remington Rand brand computer tubes or punch cards, whether or not you wish to sell or donate them, please e-mail me at: egendorf@mit.edu. Thanks. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 9 18:12:44 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: overclocking older processors Message-ID: <15379.65020.973843.406097@phaduka.neurotica.com> I was just reminded of when I overclocked an F11 chipset on a PDP-11/23 (KDF11-A) to 18MHz. It seems to me that it might be possible to overclock the 78032 on a KA630. Anybody ever done that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Dec 9 18:14:36 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in a modem-design book? Message-ID: <20011209161436.A21569@eskimo.eskimo.com> The local Barnes and Noble has one copy of this book: The Theory and Practice of Modem Design John A.C. Bingham Format: Hardcover, 1st ed., 480pp. ISBN: 0471851086 Publisher: Wiley, John & Sons, Incorporated Pub. Date: November 1990 It's not cheap ($160) but it looked reasonably meaty and I doubt it's easy to find. If anyone wants it, let me know. -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 9 18:27:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200112100030.QAA12478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 9, 1 04:30:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/0d05e7fe/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Dec 9 18:48:44 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:39 2005 Subject: AM radio music In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722599A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 10:44:52AM -0500 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722599A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011209164844.A2596@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 10:44:52AM -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > If I remember correctly, there was a machine code program > > printed once to play "music" with a ZX80 using this method! > > Older. Dr. Dobb's Journal, Issue #2... 8080 code, played > Daisy and something else, modulating the S-100 INT signal. "Fool on the Hill"? _Hackers_ by Steven Levy describes how Steve Dompier wrote a music program for the Altair and transcribed "Fool on the Hill" and "Daisy". When he actually wanted to demonstrate it, he had to find an extension cord (the only good outlet was one floor down). Then two kids tripped over the extension cord, so he had to toggle in his program twice. "Daisy" was the unadvertised "encore" in the demo... it was also played and sung by Bell Labs' IBM 7094 in 1961 (not to mention HAL). See http://www.vortex.com/av.html#DAISY _Hackers_ gives the date as 1957 but that seems to be wrong (unless Bell Labs did the music separately from the singing). -- Derek From tordsson at c2i.net Mon Dec 10 11:28:48 2001 From: tordsson at c2i.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?BJ=D8RN_TORDSSON?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Toshiba T2200SX Message-ID: <000701c181a0$21dbfbe0$5e8ad9c1@y5m7f4> My Toshiba doesn't work! Is it any place out there where I can buy a new "head card"? Answer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/76b7bac6/attachment.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 9 18:51:59 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Seeking info and parts for MicroVax II BA123 In-Reply-To: <004901c180f6$c2143960$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > > Anyone else wonder why they didn't have it outfitted with a {NIU}...? > > Maybe it was a secured device from the clean room, > in that case you wouldn't want it networked. Might have been, but in that case I would have thought they would have removed its hard drives before getting rid of it. Maybe they just used it to run a bunch of terminals and a printer. -Toth From donm at cts.com Sun Dec 9 18:59:18 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF63@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I remember somebody mentioning the CPT 9000 on this list recently. > > Since I just happen to be working on one, I thought I'd post this question > here. Are you sure that it is not a CPT 8000? That one I am a bit familiar with and find ample references by a google search. On 9000, I draw a blank. If it is truly 9000, what floppy disk size does it use? - don > Does anyone know where I can get some of the original software that might > take advantage of the full screen-height? I have a copy of ventura > publisher that was pre-installed, but I assume that its CPT9000 driver is > corrupt. It works with the Herc ega driver, but with the CPT9000 driver, I > just get some strange text-mode blocks. > > I also wonder whether anyone's tried Minix on it, and whether that might > address the whole monitor? > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 9 19:09:16 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: barred from using MULTINET (sigh!) In-Reply-To: Jerome Fine "Re: VAX 6400 booting saga: barred from using MULTINET (sigh!)" (Dec 9, 18:13) References: <200112091126.fB9BQxf00554@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3C13F002.78B3E225@idirect.com> Message-ID: <10112100109.ZM12847@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 9, 18:13, Jerome Fine wrote: > Memorex used to have a web site that listed all the properties of > DECTape (i.e. I for the TK50 with the name in brown) on the plastic > holder and DECTape II (II i.e. for the TK70). ObNitPick (just to prove we're back in list mode :-)): I believe Jerome means CompacTape and CompacTape II. DECTape is the 3/4" stuff on the "funny little reels". Nominal capacities are 95MB for TK50 and 295MB for TK70. I suspect a larger blocking factor will indeed get you more partitions on the TK70. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 9 19:03:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200112100030.QAA12478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200112100030.QAA12478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >This reminds me of a question I never got answered, since I'm poor with >6809 stuff. Has OS-9 been ported to a 6502-based architecture? I wouldn't >expect binary compatibility, of course, but since you always hear OS-9 >in connection with CoCos and such, you'd think the CoCo had a monopoly on it. The OS-9 FAQ lists it as supporting the following processors: 6809, 68xxx, PPC, X86, Intel SARM / IXP, MIPS, SPARC, Hitachi SH Specific machines which ran OS-9/6809 include: CoCo, SWTPc SCB-69, Gimix 6809, SSB Chieftain 6809, FHL TC-9, the FEBE, and a host of others, most of which are SS-50 bus machines. From the sound of the FAQ, it would appear that the SS-50 bus machines were the platform of choice for OS-9/6809. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fcharp at rogers.com Sun Dec 9 20:36:59 2001 From: fcharp at rogers.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Fw: PDP 11/34 Console & cards Message-ID: <00dd01c18123$8aa7b650$6501010a@charp> All, With regards to the DEC CDs, I will extract the titles of the manuals (about 200, I think) and post them. There are too many service bulletins and the titles are all numbered, so I won't have the time for that. For those who requested the CD's, I will let you know when they are ready -- some time this week. I am not sure that mounting images of the CDs on ftp is a good idea (I don't know what the copyright issues are there), but I don't mind making copies for those who want them. ...oh -- and yes, I will let you know about the stuff that I would like to get pretty soon... :-) Cheers, Frederic Charpentier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/cca44f32/attachment.html From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 9 21:27:51 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Tony Duell > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) OTOH, audio gear seems to be very susceptible to my smoke, and I have to clean all the switches and pots every three months or so. Glen 0/0 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 10 09:40:35 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A9A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > From: Tony Duell > > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) > > OTOH, audio gear seems to be very susceptible to my smoke, and I have to > clean all the switches and pots every three months or so. The early CDC disk drives (like many others I'm sure) has so much room between platters you could stick your hand in there, and enough room between the flying heads and the platter that neither smoke nor dust was a problem. One CDC engineer remarked to me about how they usually be smoking a cigarette while they were *polishing* the platters (yes, I know about the stiction cure joke, Lemon Pledge and all that). Which reminds me of an MPEG that Elsa included with the Winner3000 drivers... you watch this video, you'll think it's cigarettes that they're selling... -dq From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 10 11:00:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A9A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000f01c1819c$28687460$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a convert, as they say ... I don't know about truly Classic (pre-Apple/pre-CP/M) hardware in this context, but from my experience with current hardware, i.e. PC's with a fan at the back of the PSU that exhausts air that's drawn in through the front-loading peripherals, I'd make the following comment. I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from accumulation of dirt on the optic. In those few cases where (a) I knew the user to be a frequent smoker, and (b) where I could smell the smoke on the innards of the drive, I normally found that I couldn't clean the optic with anything I dared put near the quite soluble plastics used in the drive and specifically in the laser pickup. Likewise, I often have seen and smelled what was obviously tabacco smoke residue on floppy disk innards. Those were easily cleaned, with the exception of the heads, which in the cases where they were visibly stained (and it's not easy to look at the heads, but, once they're visible, the damage is easy to see) with what appeared to be smoke residue, and that generally has rendered the drives unreliable. The environment in which I most frequently encountered this problem was a machine shop where things were none too clean anyway, but the mousepad showed plenty of evidence of a cigarette being held 2" in front of the end of the box where the CDROM and FDD resided. It was no wonder the CDROM and FDD smelled like a very dirty ashtray. This is largely the product of the stupid, Stupid, STUPID practice of putting the fan in the PSU such that it exhausts the system in the way in which it does. I routinely turn the fan around, and, in fact, on at least two of my boxes, have put a second fan outside the PSU, with a filter between the two. This has quite remarkably reduced the accumulation of dirt in the PSU as in the rest of the box. It does make for a bit more noise, as the two fans tend to "beat" due to the difference in speed. I once made a crude effort to measure the temperature effect of doing this, and found the results favorable, since the reduced presence of dirt meant freer airflow against the surfaces of the IC's that required cooling in the box. I like to believe the conclusion I drew was correct, but it was what I expected to find, so take it for what it's worth. Tobacco smoke is VERY sticky and VERY pervasive, and should be kept out of computer hardware, even if only because it's so nasty and hard to remove. This can be accomplished, if you don't want to turn around your PSU fan, by taping a piece of paper towel to the front of your hardware so it requires the air to flow THROUGH the paper towel, rather than going, unimpeded, through your front-loading peripherals. That's probably adequate. Some cases once had a sliding cover that protected these peripherals from the hazard of smoke and other airborne pollutants. The air will still get into your computer, since its box isn't air-tight, but at least it won't flow through the devices that would be damaged most by it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: RE: Smoking around computers > > > From: Tony Duell > > > > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! > > > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) > > > > OTOH, audio gear seems to be very susceptible to my smoke, and I have to > > clean all the switches and pots every three months or so. > > The early CDC disk drives (like many others I'm sure) has so > much room between platters you could stick your hand in there, > and enough room between the flying heads and the platter that > neither smoke nor dust was a problem. One CDC engineer remarked > to me about how they usually be smoking a cigarette while they > were *polishing* the platters (yes, I know about the stiction > cure joke, Lemon Pledge and all that). Which reminds me of an > MPEG that Elsa included with the Winner3000 drivers... you > watch this video, you'll think it's cigarettes that they're > selling... > > -dq > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 10 11:26:43 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <000f01c1819c$28687460$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a > convert, as they say ... > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Mon Dec 10 09:49:25 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011210104846.00b04880@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 10:27 PM 12/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and >I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that >computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) You have been very lucky. Over the years I have seen many problems caused by just that. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale I accept PayPal To subscribe to automatic updates send a blank e-mail to: online-garage-sale-subscribe@yahoogroups.com From fcharp at rogers.com Sun Dec 9 21:38:37 2001 From: fcharp at rogers.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: DEC Support & Service CDs (was PDP 11/34 Console & cards) Message-ID: <01a601c1812c$2741eaa0$6501010a@charp> Okay, so I dug a tad deeper into the DEC service CD-ROMs and found a lot there. In terms of manuals, the 2 CDs include no less than... 852 (!) PDF-encoded manuals -- yes, that's 525 on one CD and the balance on the other. Remember the VAX technical library room? Ours was covered with orange manuals wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling.. Well I have the feeling that these 2 disks contain all of those and then some. The manuals cover everything from operator's manuals to CPU programmers reference, diagrams, bulletins. DECserver, Alpha desktops, storage units. And that's just for manuals. The disks also contain software libraries that include bios, drivers, etc... The index files alone take a fair bit of room. I thought for a minute that I could post them here, but I gave up as soon as I saw the size of them. So.... If you are interested in the index files, email me. I will have a run of disks made. NOT FOR SALE, only giveaways. I'll seed 5 or 10 of those who want it, and they can take it from there and pay forward by obliging other people. Cheers and all that sort of things, Frederic Charpentier P.S.: now, if only this kind of documentation archive existed for S-100 systems... Almost makes you want to take up VAX systems. Then again, I'd probably need to somewhat upgrade my home electrical switchbox. Or I could move next to a nuclear power plant... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011209/dba80166/attachment.html From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 10 10:56:27 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: DEC Support & Service CDs (was PDP 11/34 Console & cards) In-Reply-To: <01a601c1812c$2741eaa0$6501010a@charp> from "Frederic Charpentier" at Dec 09, 2001 10:38:37 PM Message-ID: <200112101656.fBAGuRA21123@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Okay, so I dug a tad deeper into the DEC service CD-ROMs and found a lot = > there. > In terms of manuals, the 2 CDs include no less than... 852 (!) = > PDF-encoded manuals -- yes, that's 525 on one CD and the balance on the = > other. Remember the VAX technical library room? Ours was covered with = > orange manuals wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling.. Well I have the feeling = > that these 2 disks contain all of those and then some. The manuals cover = > everything from operator's manuals to CPU programmers reference, = > diagrams, bulletins. DECserver, Alpha desktops, storage units. And = > that's just for manuals. The disks also contain software libraries that = > include bios, drivers, etc... > The index files alone take a fair bit of room. I thought for a minute = > that I could post them here, but I gave up as soon as I saw the size of = > them. > > So.... If you are interested in the index files, email me. I will have a = > run of disks made. NOT FOR SALE, only giveaways. I'll seed 5 or 10 of = > those who want it, and they can take it from there and pay forward by = > obliging other people. I'd love a set of the CDs, and I am willing to make copies to pass on as well. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From hansp at aconit.org Mon Dec 10 12:15:54 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: DEC Support & Service CDs (was PDP 11/34 Console & cards) References: <01a601c1812c$2741eaa0$6501010a@charp> Message-ID: <3C14FBDA.8060403@aconit.org> Frederic Charpentier wrote: > Okay, so I dug a tad deeper into the DEC service CD-ROMs and found a lot > there. > > In terms of manuals, the 2 CDs include no less than... 852 (!) > PDF-encoded manuals -- yes, that's 525 on one CD and the balance on the > other. Remember the VAX technical library room? Ours was covered with > orange manuals wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling.. Well I have the feeling > that these 2 disks contain all of those and then some. The manuals cover > everything from operator's manuals to CPU programmers reference, > diagrams, bulletins. DECserver, Alpha desktops, storage units. And > that's just for manuals. The disks also contain software libraries that > include bios, drivers, etc... > > So.... If you are interested in the index files, email me. I will have a > run of disks made. NOT FOR SALE, only giveaways. I'll seed 5 or 10 of > those who want it, and they can take it from there and pay forward > by obliging other people. I'd be interestted for our collection here in France. I could send you a US$ check for mailing etc. We too can copy for others in Europe. Regards, -- hbp From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 9 21:42:06 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Rescue list? Message-ID: <20011210041659.NYND8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Dave McGuire > Well, by way of explanation... My trademark on the rescue list is to > say "Is she cute?" for ANY mention of any sister, wife, female > coworker, any female at all. What rescue list? Glen 0/0 From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Mon Dec 10 10:09:17 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Rescue list? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DED@BUSH02> What rescue list? For all the rest of us who were going to ask but didn't want to look stupid, I thank you. 8^)= Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Dec 10 10:27:39 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Rescue list? Message-ID: <67.1e4f0ff9.29463c7b@aol.com> In a message dated 12/10/01 11:22:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, Lee.Davison@merlincommunications.com writes: > > > > > > > What rescue list? > > For all the rest of us who were going to ask but didn't want > to look stupid, I thank you. 8^)= > > He is most likely speaking of the SunRescue list. You can find it at http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue Come and join the fun :-) -Linc. In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/61b41101/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 10 10:56:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Rescue list? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A9D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > What rescue list? > > For all the rest of us who were going to ask but didn't want > to look stupid, I thank you. 8^)= I *think* he's referring to a human rescue list, i.e. paramedics, people who fly helicopters, rappel down the sides of cliffs, looking for lost or injured people. -dq From fcharp at rogers.com Sun Dec 9 21:45:27 2001 From: fcharp at rogers.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 Console & cards References: <20011209192645.55983.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01ba01c1812d$1b5807f0$6501010a@charp> Ethan, Sorry about the PDP stuff, but it's gone. Maybe I did not go about this the right way... I'll keep my eyes peeled. Ottawa is an administrative capital and the government is dumping a lot of DEC stuff. I'll make sure to post further finds. Cheers, Frederic ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:26 PM Subject: Re: PDP 11/34 Console & cards > > --- Frederic Charpentier wrote: > > DIGITAL > > > > M7762 RL11 U RX01 floppy disk > > controller > > RL01/RL02 controller... still a nice card to have. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 9 22:00:08 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: H89 docs/help requested Message-ID: <20011210041707.NYNZ8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> As previously posted, the H89 which Joe Rigdon kindly gave me has a problem with the keyboard input: sometimes it works properly, but sometimes double characters or wrong characters are produced. This behavior can change while using the machine -- one moment it's okay, the next moment I get wrong or double characters. Anyone have a set of docs they can reproduce for me? Or any experience with the keyboard controller circuitry on this machine? TIA -- Glen 0/0 From univac2 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 10 10:16:57 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: H89 docs/help requested In-Reply-To: <20011210041707.NYNZ8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: I'm sitting in front of a large stack of boxes full of H-89 docs & software. I'll look through it and try to find my technical manuals, and if I succeed, I can send you a physical copy. on 12/9/01 10:00 PM, Glen Goodwin at acme_ent@bellsouth.net wrote: > As previously posted, the H89 which Joe Rigdon kindly gave me has a problem > with the keyboard input: sometimes it works properly, but sometimes double > characters or wrong characters are produced. This behavior can change > while using the machine -- one moment it's okay, the next moment I get > wrong or double characters. > > Anyone have a set of docs they can reproduce for me? Or any experience > with the keyboard controller circuitry on this machine? > > TIA -- > > Glen > 0/0 > From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 10 10:38:46 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Triumph-adler Alphatronic PC questions In-Reply-To: <20011210041707.NYNZ8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: I am looking for the system disks for an Alphatronic PC -CP/M I think. I would really appreciate it if someone could send me disk images of these disks, or I could pay you for shipping if you don't mind mailing them to me. Also, I am missing the floppy drive ribbon cables that connect the F1 and F2 drives. There is a custom cable shop near me that can make the cables but I'm not sure if there are any cross-over wires or other unusual traits to these cables. Are they straight through or not? Any information on that would be great. Thanks. Ernest ernestls@attbi.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Dec 10 11:33:14 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <15379.61908.784561.641651@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011209153952.00b18e78@mail.wincom.net> <000c01c180f9$b997cd30$6501a8c0@laboffice> <15379.61908.784561.641651@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011210113314.D25923@mrbill.net> On Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 06:20:52PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, by way of explanation... My trademark on the rescue list is to > say "Is she cute?" for ANY mention of any sister, wife, female > coworker, any female at all. Somehow I didn't think that'd go over > very well on this list. In spite of the unbelievably long off-topic > threads that occur here, this is definitely a much less "social" and > more "down to business" mailing list. ;) Actually, its "is she cute"? followed by "does she have a sister?" 8-) Bill (admin of the sunrescue list, www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue) -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Dec 10 12:02:53 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467396@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Not a bad truck... Let's see, 96 S-10? 2WD, right? And does it really _use_ the cowl-induction hood scoop? ;) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Daniel A. Seagraves [mailto:DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com] ! Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:30 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) ! ! ! [Is she cute?] ! ! I dunno. She's my sister. She's more of a pain in the ass ! than anything. ^_^ ! http://www.lunar-tokyo.net/pictures/ she's in there somewheres. ! ! ------- ! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 10 12:14:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AA2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 06:20:52PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Well, by way of explanation... My trademark on the rescue list is to > > say "Is she cute?" for ANY mention of any sister, wife, female > > coworker, any female at all. Somehow I didn't think that'd go over > > very well on this list. In spite of the unbelievably long off-topic > > threads that occur here, this is definitely a much less "social" and > > more "down to business" mailing list. ;) > > Actually, its "is she cute"? followed by "does she have a > sister?" 8-) > > Bill (admin of the sunrescue list, > www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue) Suns got their own rescue list! (with a nod to Johnny Hart)... -dq From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Dec 10 04:14:56 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: VAX 8650 want a good home ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706629A@exc-reo1> > Well, if you tell us what you're looking for, we might just > find it. Docs & prints would be nice :-) Must be one of the few major machines for which virtually nothing seems to be available on the net! Antonio From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 10 09:19:46 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: testing Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF68@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > On December 8, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > testing > > testing 1..2..3... > KA410-A V1.2 > F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1_.. ?DKA0... Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 10 09:25:53 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Need "PC Mouse" driver for PCjr .. Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF69@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: UberTechnoid@home.com [mailto:UberTechnoid@home.com] > The new optical mice rock hard core man. I can't believe it, but now > there is a mouse that will track on your ASS. I play Isn't that uncomfortable? I'd rather have a special hard-to-find mouse-pad. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 10 09:35:25 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF6B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Louis Schulman [mailto:louiss@gate.net] > They probably existed, but I don't recall ever seeing a > non-bootable program disk for an Apple II. And data > disks are not much use without program disks. Well, there was a funny little program that would allow you to "remove DOS from a disk to save space" or the like. I assume this would produce just such a non-bootable disk. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From univac2 at earthlink.net Mon Dec 10 09:35:48 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 6000 Message-ID: I am very happy today - I'm finally getting a TRS-80 Model 6000! Anyway I was wondering if anyone has any software for it (it runs Xenix, which it has), or the hardware manual, as I am only getting the Xenix manuals. And if anyone has one of those neat little TRS-80 DT-1 terminals for it, I'd love that. From bills at adrenaline.com Mon Dec 10 09:43:30 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Model 33 Teletypes acquired Message-ID: Yesterday morning, I drove up into the mountains of West Virginia and got an ASR-33 and a KSR-33 with a few spare parts and a five inch stack of docs. I haven't had the time to do anything with them yet, probably won't get to play much until Christmas week. Anyway, the metal on both machines seems to be in good shape, but the plastic leaves something to be desired. The ASR is mostly just dirty, but there is a crack at the left rear screw position. The KSR is cleaner as it was used less, but it was stored improperly in a box and dropped or something and the plastic upper case (the gray case, not the white/yellow cover over the carriage) is broken into several pieces. So does anybody have recommendations as to glue or other solutions? Is someone sitting on a big stock of spare upper shells? Thanks, Bill From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 10 10:27:55 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF6E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] > Are you sure that it is not a CPT 8000? That one I am a bit familiar > with and find ample references by a google search. On 9000, I draw a > blank. Well, it says 9000 on the front, I believe. :) > If it is truly 9000, what floppy disk size does it use? It was shipped, I think, with both 3.5 and 5.25" high-density floppy drives. I just found another 3.5" floppy that works in it on Saturday night. I got no manuals, no software (other than what was extremely messed up and left on the drive), and a disassembled machine. The machine is now in more-or-less good shape. I need to pick the tumbler keyboard lock. For now I've just disconnected it. (Or find a key that works) I should also replace the power adaptor I've got plugged into the floppy drive, since it's also got a signal cable adaptor that's not being used. :) As I was saying, the installation was pretty botched by the time I got it. It boots -- thinks it runs MS-DOS 3.2 -- and that's really about it. I believe the CPU was intel 286. It has a "Tall Tree Systems" JRAM card and JLaser 3 (I think) daughterboard. a 20MB MFM (or RLL?) 3.5" half-height hard disk. (Miniscribe, I believe) It also has (...and this is the reason I rescued it, even though it is an intel machine) a really odd graphics adaptor with a 15-pin (two row D-shaped) connector that drives a full-page monochrome (white) EGA monitor. That's pretty much all I know about it. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Dec 10 10:43:59 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: More DEC cards Availiable Incl. Core Message-ID: Since I have had some requests from dealers I went through my storage locker and pulled out most of the rest of my DEC cards. The highlight seems to be some complete core memory sets. There are a couple of Floating Point cards, a GPIB, 11/02 & 11/23 CPUs and Drive controllers. Please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com with offers or if you have questions. I am traveling this week so it may take me a day or two to answer. Paxton Astoria Oregon Here is the list: DEC cards - QBUS 1 M3104 DHV11-A Quad 8-LINE ASYNC MUX, DMA (DHV11) 2 M7264 KD11-F, 11-03 Processor wi 4K word MOS RAM **** 2 M7264 CB KD11-F, 11-03 Processor wi 4K word MOS RAM **** 1 M7264 YC KD11-H, 11-03 Processor wi 0K word RAM, Rev F or later **** 13 M7270 KD11-HA, LSI-11/2 CPU, 16-bit **** 1 M7546 TQK50-AA, TMSCP controller for TK50 tape unit 1 M7680 RK05 2 M7800 DL11, Async transmitter & receiver, 110-2400 baud, 2 M7800 YA DL11, M7800 without EIA chips, current loop only 2 M7856 DL11-W, RS-232 SLU & realtime clock option 3 M7940 DLV11, Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) 8 M7941 DRV11, 16 Bit Parallel Line Unit 1 M7944 MSV11-B, 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM (external refresh) 2 M7946 RXV11, RX01 8" floppy disk controller 1 M8013 RLV11, RL01 disk controller, 1 of 2, Wi BC06-R Cable 1 M8017 DLV11-E, Single-line async control module 2 M8017 AA DLV11-E, Single-line async control module 2 M8028 DLV11-F, Async interface EIA/20mA, error flags, break 1 M8029 RXV21, RX02 floppy disk controller, 18-bit DMA only. 11 M8043 DLV11-M, 4-Line Asynchronous Interface 1 M8044 CB MSV11-DC, 16-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM 10 M8044 DB MSV11-DD, 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM 2 M8044 DC MSV11-DD, 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM 1 M8044 DE MSV11-DD, 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM 1 M8044 DK MSV11-DD, 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM 1 M8044 EB 1 M8044 EM 1 M8045 DC MSV11-ED, 32-Kword 18-bit MOS RAM 3 M8045 DH MSV11-ED, 32-Kword 18-bit MOS RAM 1 M8045 DL MSV11-ED, 32-Kword 18-bit MOS RAM 1 M8059 FF MSV11-LF, 64-Kword MOS RAM, single voltage **** 1 M8059 KC MSV11-LK, 128-Kword MOS RAM, single voltage 2 M8059 KP MSV11-LK, 128-Kword MOS RAM, single voltage 3 M8186 KDF11, DUAL HEIGHT CPU,Q-BU **** 1 M8186 KDF11, DUAL HEIGHT CPU,Q-BUS CABLED TO **** 1 M8188 FPF-11, FLOATING POINT PROCESSOR Quad **** 1 M8639 YA RQDX1, RD51/52 & RX50 MFM Disk control module 2 M8950 TM78,READ CHANNEL 2 M8958 TM78 TRANSLATOR 1 M8960 8085 CPU Quad **** 1 M8973 8085 EXTENDED MEMORY,DBL8.5 **** 2 M9400 YE REV11-E, Headers and 250-ohm terminators (18-bit bus only) 2 M9404 Q22 bus cable connector, no terminators 1 W987A Quad Extender 1 W984A Dual Extender 1 H3001 Wi Plate Single Line RS232 Interface No cable 1 H3271 Staggered Turnaround Test Connector (DZ11[-x]) OTHER QBUS CARDS 1 Heathkit Serial I/O H-11-5 With cable to strange square plug Date 011879 **** 1 National Instruments GPIB11-1 Rev A Quad **** 2 Plessey 701065-100H Single Serial Mil spec connectors Quad 1 Scientific Micro Systems FD0100I L/E-HIP 7939 Floppy Controller Quad **** 2 135 Q-Bus Digitizer Inf Rev C White handles Tek? Quad 1 Dilog DQ342 Rev C Tape controller emulates TS11/TU80,TSV05 NICE Quad **** 1 Dilog MQ696 Rev D 20 Mhz ESDI, FLOPPY, MSCP **** 1 Emulex TC1510201-SXC .25 Cassette Tape controller, wi Cable 1 Emulex TC1510201-SXD .25 Cassette Tape Controller, wi cable 1 Tektronix CP4100/IEEE 488 INTERFACE 1/83 Quad **** 1 Datasystems DLP-11 Quad Line Printer I/F 1 Dataram Assy. 62404 Rev D 8704 8 Meg Ram Quad 1 MM Memory 20-4930-01 Rev B 4 Meg Ram Quad 1 Ikonas IKQ 85/32-301-017-10A, BROKE WHITE TABS Quad BAR CODES *3130101710AL*, *W0304701* & *11966* 1 MDB MDB-1710 Prototype section board Quad **** 1 MDB MDB-11WWB Rev C Prototype card Quad **** 4 MDB MLSI-DLV11 #40320 Serial cards 1 Data Systems Design (DSD) A4432-3 LSI-11 1978 1 Intel 05-0848-006 LSI-11 Memory card with only 5 chips socketed **** 1 Digital Pathways RMA-128 Memory card with 32 64K chips 2 Motorola Memory Systems MMS122N3032 Memory card with Gold piggy back 32K 4132 DRam chips 1 Rev B (not working), 1 Rev C **** 1 Datafusion OSB11-A-01 Two Cards Dual Width Termination 1 Data Translation EPO43 Rev F 11/82 wi DT15150 DC/DC Converter **** 1 Data Translation DT2764-SE EPO50 Rev H 06/82 A to D Board 1 Netcom NDLV-11 Serial Card 1 2501 2045 Army Green handles Seiko mfg Jumper two card set 1 4711 00 Army Green handles A/D Sample Hold 2501-4711-00/4 Wi Datel Ultra Fast A/D Converter ADC-EH12B3 Missing 2 TTL chips 1 4990 Army Green handles 1923-4990/1 wi ADC DAC1207, 05/64 OEM sticker Single width card. DEC CORE MEMORY **** 4 G110 Core Memory set for PDP 11/40 **** 4 G231 16K XY Selection, Current source, Address Latch,8K Decode. **** 3 H214 Core 8KX16 8K 16 bit **** 1 H215 Core 8KX18 (375) 8K 18 bit **** 2 sets H222A MM11-DP 16KX18 (375) 16K per set, unsure of the sys **** G652 **** MASSBUS MASSBUS MASSBUS 2 M5903 DRIVE TRANCEIVER 2 M5922 MASS BUS TRANSCEIVER, PORT A, RM03 Unusual cards 6 wide - Cannot tell if Uni or Q 1 ? SDLC PCB127 Rev C 2 ? Q BUS SYS PCB136 Rev B Appears to be a test board. Has TST/NOR, HIT/RUN & RESTART switches. Also has LEDs for TEST NO., CODE, STATUS wi LSB & MSB. DEC Cards that are 4 wide but not able to tell if Uni or Qbus 1 M3110 PROTOCOL ASSIST #1 SPEC CHAR 1 M3111 PROTOCOL ASSIST #2 SPEC CHAR 2 M7364 2 M7365 1 M7366 Unibus Unibus Unibus 1 M3105 DHU11-A, 16-LN ASYNC MUX,DMA 3 M7133 KDF11-UA, 11/24 CPU, LINE CLOCK, 2 SER 1 M7294 RH11 MASSBUS DATA BUFFER & CONTROL 1 M7295 RH11-A, BUS CONTROL 3 M7485 YA UDA50-A two with both jumper cables, 3 M7486 UDA52, UDA SI one with one jumper cable 2 70-18455-6K Red cable sets for above 5 M7819 DZ11, 8-LINE DBL BUF ASYNC EIA WI MODEM CONTROL 7 M7819 00 DZ11, 8-LINE DBL BUF ASYNC EIA WI MODEM CONTROL 1 M7867 DUP11-DA, SDLC or DDCMP Sync Interface 1 M7891 DK 128-Kword 18-bit parity MOS memory 1 M7900 RK611, RK06/07 Unibus Interface 1 M7901 RK611, RK06/07 Register Module, Hex 1 M7902 RK611, RK06/07 Control Module, Hex 1 M7903 RK611, RK06/07 Data Module, Hex 1 M792 YL RX11 floppy loader 3 M8265 KD11-EA, 11/34A data paths module 2 M8266 KD11-EA, 11/34A control module 1 M8267 FP11-A, 11/34A Floating Point **** 1 M8743 AP MDECS-AA, 512-Kbyte ECC RAM 5 M9202 UNIBUS connector, inverted M9192-M9292, 1"APART W/2'C 1 70-20956-10 Cable set Other Mfg. UNIBUS 1 Emulex CS2110203/F1E 16 Ch RS-232 Communications controller 1 Emulex CS2110203/F2B 16 Ch RS-232 Communications controller 1 Western Peripherals TC131 Tape Controller 1 Plessey Peripherals 701840-101J 2-50 pin & 1-26 pin connectors 1 Intergraph PCB360 Rev A Ethernet & 1 Meg Ram 1 M&S Computing PCB209 Rev B Vector Data Generator END END END From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 10 12:01:05 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011210115656.06e15008@pc> Back in September I wrote: >I've got a lead on a full and working electron microscope. >It's on-topic because it's old and has some sort of >computerized digitizing unit. :-) >I've lined up a big Diesel stake (flat-bed) truck. >It'll be about a 2-3 hour drive. We've got straps, >boards, tarps. I'm most concerned about getting it >*off* the truck and into my office or home basement. >Any other thoughts from the group? An update: it's in my garage now. The x-ray spectrometer is a 11/23-based system running custom apps over RT-11. The SEM has an 8085-based system for automating various aspects of the electron microscope column. It's an AMRAY 1610T, circa 1983: http://www.threedee.com/jmosn/microscopes/amray/index.html Even at 1,200 pounds, the column rolled easily on a pallet jack, off the loading dock ramp and onto the truck. To get it all off the truck, the farmer next-door helped with his power-tilt front-loader bucket. The next trick will be to levitate it down the stairs and into the basement. If I can get it all back together again and happy, it'll magnify down to about 50,000 x. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 10 12:22:13 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: Re: Rescue list? (LFessen106@aol.com) References: <67.1e4f0ff9.29463c7b@aol.com> Message-ID: <15380.64853.294164.407701@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 10, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > He is most likely speaking of the SunRescue list. You can find it at > http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue > Come and join the fun :-) I think Bill no longer considers it really Sun-specific, Linc.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 10 12:26:59 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Availability of DSP56K chips In-Reply-To: Availability of DSP56K chips (Carlos Murillo) References: <3.0.2.32.20011210124142.00ee08e4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <15380.65139.363733.96076@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 10, Carlos Murillo wrote: > So my question to the list is: do you know where to get dsp56001A > chips? Or better yet, do you have some that you don't plan to use? I found a small pile of them on eBay about a year ago. I don't recall how much I paid, but I remember thinking it was pretty cheap. I may have some left...I will dig for them when I get over to my new place. Ping me off-list if you don't hear from me by tomorrow. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 10 10:25:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> References: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <01Dec10.134636est.119223@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and >I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that >computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) It certainly could turn beige cases some nasty yellow colors though Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 10 12:22:27 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AA3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a > > convert, as they say ... > > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > > D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. One for to rot, One for the crows, One for the farmer, and one for the keyboards rows? -dq From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Mon Dec 10 12:33:25 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: Message-ID: <003701c181a9$465646c0$88f8fea9@98box> ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: Re: Smoking around computers > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a > > convert, as they say ... > > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > > D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? > > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. Now THERE'S a find!!!! -Lanny Cox From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 10 12:37:45 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: DEC Support & Service CDs (was PDP 11/34 Console & cards) In-Reply-To: <01a601c1812c$2741eaa0$6501010a@charp> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Frederic Charpentier wrote: > So.... If you are interested in the index files, email me. I will have > a run of disks made. NOT FOR SALE, only giveaways. I'll seed 5 or 10 > of those who want it, and they can take it from there and pay forward > by obliging other people. I'm interested, I'd also be willing to make copies for anyone located in Houston or nearby areas. > P.S.: now, if only this kind of documentation archive existed for > S-100 systems... Almost makes you want to take up VAX systems. Then > again, I'd probably need to somewhat upgrade my home electrical > switchbox. Or I could move next to a nuclear power plant... I'm putting in a dedicated 100A branch panel for my new building that will house my old SGI/Sun/VAX boxes. I hope that will be enough ;) -Toth From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Dec 9 22:30:17 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <200112100022.QAA12804@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <13697859636.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Is she cute?] I dunno. She's my sister. She's more of a pain in the ass than anything. ^_^ http://www.lunar-tokyo.net/pictures/ she's in there somewheres. ------- From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Dec 10 12:42:21 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Rescue list? Message-ID: <171.5697e01.29465c0d@aol.com> In a message dated 12/10/01 1:32:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, mcguire@neurotica.com writes: > I think Bill no longer considers it really Sun-specific, Linc.. > > -Dave > That's the impression I get as well. -Linc. In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/2301fcac/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 10 12:43:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Smoking around computers (Glen Goodwin) References: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <15381.607.234109.44847@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 9, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) It makes them STINK! Actually either one makes them stink! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 10 12:51:21 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:40 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: Re: Rescue list? (LFessen106@aol.com) References: <171.5697e01.29465c0d@aol.com> Message-ID: <15381.1065.383787.769840@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 10, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > I think Bill no longer considers it really Sun-specific, Linc.. > > That's the impression I get as well. Well, he announced it, and all... 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 10 12:46:19 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Model 33 Teletypes acquired In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Anyway, the metal on both machines seems to be in good shape, but the > plastic leaves something to be desired. The ASR is mostly just dirty, > but there is a crack at the left rear screw position. The KSR is > cleaner as it was used less, but it was stored improperly in a box and > dropped or something and the plastic upper case (the gray case, not > the white/yellow cover over the carriage) is broken into several > pieces. So does anybody have recommendations as to glue or other > solutions? Is someone sitting on a big stock of spare upper shells? Use a glue specially for ABS plastic. Most so-called plastic and model glues are for polystyrene and won't bond ABS since they are not strong enough. Let me know what you find, since I'm also looking for glue to use on tons of broken ABS cases. I've been told that there is a glue made for an ABS type of drain pipe. PVC glue won't work either, it tends to damage ABS plastics. -Toth From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Dec 10 12:51:40 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: barred from using MULTINET (sigh!) In-Reply-To: <3C13F002.78B3E225@idirect.com>; from jhfine@idirect.com on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 00:13:06 CET References: <200112091126.fB9BQxf00554@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3C13F002.78B3E225@idirect.com> Message-ID: <20011210195140.A21785@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.10 00:13 Jerome Fine wrote: > Memorex used to have a web site that listed all the properties of > DECTape (i.e. I for the TK50 with the name in brown) DECtape is _not_ the TK[57]0. TK[57]0 is called CompacTape I (TK50) or II (TK70). My information is based on http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/tk50.html#tk50-as-tk70 and there is written: Once you erase a TK50 you can use it in a TK70 drive and vice versa, but the TK50 and TK70 tape material is different, and the write current of the TK70 drive is different (lower). This is not recommended, and should be used for temporary storage for which you will suffer no pain if lost. > (b) The controller must have a buffer of some kind which holds the > next block of data automatically. Yes. The TQK70 has some additional buffer that can speed up things considerably. I experienced that when I reinstalled 2.11BSD UNIX on my PDP11/73... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 10 12:53:24 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <003701c181a9$465646c0$88f8fea9@98box> Message-ID: > > > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > > D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > Now THERE'S a find!!!! It doesn't take much to make a model 1 key not function. A clean environment, or periodic cleanout of the keyboard is important. From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 10 13:11:31 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: The tar and other solids do have thier effects on machines, just basically depends on where it is in conjuction to the smoke you exhale and the ashtray with the smoldering cigs - I took one apart that I used a lot when I did smoke - pew did it wreak! I never noticed it when I smoked though and I noticed also since I'm a non-smoker (not an anti-smoker though like many that quit) that the machines that I did smoke near have a brown film on them inside and out, and that the fans and inside power siupplies are loaded with dust that the tar collected with. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin -> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 9:28 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Smoking around computers -> -> -> > From: Tony Duell -> -> > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! -> -> I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 -> years, and -> I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that -> computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) -> -> OTOH, audio gear seems to be very susceptible to my smoke, and I have to -> clean all the switches and pots every three months or so. -> -> Glen -> 0/0 -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 10 13:11:33 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <01Dec10.134636est.119223@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: Maybe that's why IBM went to black on many models :-) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige -> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 10:26 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Smoking around computers -> -> -> >I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for -> 20 years, and -> >I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that -> >computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) -> -> It certainly could turn beige cases some nasty yellow colors though -> -> Jeff -> -- -> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> http://www.cchaven.com -> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 10 13:14:00 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had a machine from one of the ITT Tech schools the same way - cannibus keyboard. I think that the pot smoke is actually worse than even the heaviest of non-filter cigs smoke - the residues from a pot smoker's PC really are funky when they've sat in storage for a while but I have noticed that machines with either residue (pot or cigs) don't tend to have mice live in them when sotred - I tried this by putting a bag of tobacco (cloth bag) inside and purposely left a filler plate off - no mice. The machine without had all sorts of acorn shells, poop, nesting materials, etc though. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin -> (XenoSoft) -> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:27 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Smoking around computers -> -> -> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: -> > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no -> Catholic like a -> > convert, as they say ... -> > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from -> -> D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? -> -> -> I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a -> chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. -> -> -> -> From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 10 13:00:18 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011210115656.06e15008@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 10, 2001 12:01:05 PM Message-ID: <200112101900.fBAJ0IH21490@narnia.int.dittman.net> > An update: it's in my garage now. The x-ray spectrometer > is a 11/23-based system running custom apps over RT-11. > The SEM has an 8085-based system for automating various > aspects of the electron microscope column. It's an > AMRAY 1610T, circa 1983: > http://www.threedee.com/jmosn/microscopes/amray/index.html > > Even at 1,200 pounds, the column rolled easily on a > pallet jack, off the loading dock ramp and onto the > truck. To get it all off the truck, the farmer next-door > helped with his power-tilt front-loader bucket. > > The next trick will be to levitate it down the stairs > and into the basement. > > If I can get it all back together again and happy, > it'll magnify down to about 50,000 x. The Failure Analysis lab where I used to work had a couple of SEMs, and they always mounted them on a large granite slab isolated from the rest of the building (they'd cut down through the foundation and place the block in the hole, with rubber seals to prevent thing from falling between the foundation and the slab. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 10 13:20:59 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: Re: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) (Daniel A. Seagraves) References: <200112100022.QAA12804@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <13697859636.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <15381.2843.234370.190243@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 9, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Is she cute?] > > I dunno. She's my sister. She's more of a pain in the ass than anything. ^_^ > http://www.lunar-tokyo.net/pictures/ she's in there somewheres. Hmm, yes, quite cute. You can tell her I said so. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Dec 10 11:41:42 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Availability of DSP56K chips Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011210124142.00ee08e4@obregon.multi.net.co> Hi everyone; It's been a while since I last coded stuff for robot control. The last time I did that, the DSP56K (dsp56001 in particular) chips were readily available. Now I need to develop a new platform for research purposes and I am finding that the once ubiquitous dsp56k chips have been eol'd (end-of-line'd in motorola parlance). The suggested replacements are the dsp56301 or 303 chips, which are code compatible, have 24 bit addressing (instead of 16 bit), run at 80MIPs instead of 20, and have all the glue logic for PCI or ISA interfacing built-in (dsp56301, which makes sense in my application because the robot supervisor will be a Linux server receiving commands from robot application clients over tcp/ip; the dsp will be a slave that does the low level yet massive number crunching stuff). So why don't I just go and choose the newer parts? Several reasons: 1) I'd prefer to go with unix-based free software tools. There is a56k and gcc56k for the dsp56k. While the dsp56.3k is supposedly code-compatible, I am sure that some tweaking would be required to make these tools work with the new family, and compilers are not my area of expertise. 2) The older parts have roughly 100 pins and can be wirewrapped, the new parts have 192 pins and require modern pcb design and production techniques, which are outrageously expensive in this corner of the world. I am not comfortable wire-wrapping a design that runs at 80MHz instead of 20. 3) From experience, I know that 20MIPS is enough for the task at hand. So, I am faced with a familiar problem; an old part that will do the job in a simpler design is no longer (readily) available; there is a new, better, faster part, but there aren't as many software goodies to go with it, and the hardware design tools and fabrication are more expensive. The key issue is the present availability of the older parts. I've checked some places and they seem to actually be out of these chips. So my question to the list is: do you know where to get dsp56001A chips? Or better yet, do you have some that you don't plan to use? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Dec 9 23:48:26 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: iPDS questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe I have a bootdisk for this. E-mail me privately and I'll hook you up. On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm sure glad to see the list is back up, I originally tried the following > message on Tuesday. I still don't know anything more about the system. > Unfortunatly it's been raining really hard around here since Tuesday, so > the system is still sitting at work, and I've not really been able to > examine it. > > Zane > > I'm still a little shocked. I just found a working iPDS system, complete > with documentation and some software. Unfortunatly I don't think a lot of > it is still readable. I did get the system to boot and pass all > diagnostics. > > I know nothing about these beasties, from looking at the doc's it's > obviously i8085 based with 64k RAM. It's got a single 5 1/4" floppy, and > it's in a case slightly smaller than a Kaypro II. In the area behind the > CRT is a storage area for two pods that each handle two different sizes of > PROMs, these plug into a hole in the right side of the case. > > What on earth filesystem are the floppies? Are any kind of software images > available to replace the dead floppies? Is there any software to read and > write to the floppies from MS-DOS? > > Basically the main thing I'm interested in is the systems ability to read > and write PROMs. I wouldn't mind being able to use this to support my DEC > hardware :^) > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 10 12:41:04 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. I understand they're high in protein. Maybe this person ate them over their keyboard like others eat snacks? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Dec 10 13:15:30 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: <15380.64853.294164.407701@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <67.1e4f0ff9.29463c7b@aol.com> <15380.64853.294164.407701@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011210131530.C25133@mrbill.net> On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:22:13PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > I think Bill no longer considers it really Sun-specific, Linc.. Officially its the Sun Rescue list, but "coverage" has expanded to just about anything involving old machines or equipment. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 10 13:37:59 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF6E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] > > > Are you sure that it is not a CPT 8000? That one I am a bit familiar > > with and find ample references by a google search. On 9000, I draw a > > blank. > > Well, it says 9000 on the front, I believe. :) > > > If it is truly 9000, what floppy disk size does it use? > > It was shipped, I think, with both 3.5 and 5.25" high-density floppy drives. > I just found another 3.5" floppy that works in it on Saturday night. > > I got no manuals, no software (other than what was extremely messed up and > left on the drive), and a disassembled machine. > > The machine is now in more-or-less good shape. I need to pick the tumbler > keyboard lock. For now I've just disconnected it. (Or find a key that > works) I should also replace the power adaptor I've got plugged into the > floppy drive, since it's also got a signal cable adaptor that's not being > used. :) > > As I was saying, the installation was pretty botched by the time I got it. > It boots -- thinks it runs MS-DOS 3.2 -- and that's really about it. I > believe the CPU was intel 286. It has a "Tall Tree Systems" JRAM card and > JLaser 3 (I think) daughterboard. a 20MB MFM (or RLL?) 3.5" half-height > hard disk. (Miniscribe, I believe) Obviously a next generation machine from the drives and O/S. The 8000 was a Z-80 based machine. > It also has (...and this is the reason I rescued it, even though it is an > intel machine) a really odd graphics adaptor with a 15-pin (two row > D-shaped) connector that drives a full-page monochrome (white) EGA monitor. Sounds Mac like. > That's pretty much all I know about it. > > Regards, > > Chris Thanks, Chris, I appreciate the info. Sorry I cannot help you. - don > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Dec 10 13:41:46 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Availability of DSP56K chips Message-ID: <4e.325aa6e.294669fa@aol.com> Hi Carlos Try Dial Electronics, www.dialelec.com, they may be able to get some 56001's, they are resonably priced and don't have a minimum order charge. Unfortunately the rest of the 56k family comes in 144pin quad flat pack, even the 56002. One solution might be get a TQFP to BGA adapter board. The BGA adaptors usually have long enough pins to wrap and solder to. Winslow in the UK may have these in stock. Also, look out for an old style DSP56303-EVM evaluation module. These had pin headers connected to the data, address and control busses. I may have an old one lying around somewhere. Don't bother with the new EVM modules if you need to interface to any hardware - they only have headers for the control bus and 8-bit host port. Note: The 8-bit host port is a slave port only and needs to be driven from external processor. I've been using the 56300 family for quite a while now. The 24-bit instructions let you do one arithmetic op and two data moves in one cycle. The DMA channels allow you to move data without interrupting the core. You also get a lot more internal memory with the 563xx parts. My personal preference is to run these processors using internal memory only. Just use slow 8-bit flash to load programs. It saves having to use fast SRAM and you can do all of your I/O with fast serial links if need be. 56303 - 4k program, 2k X and Y ram. 3.3V core and I/O. I/O is 5V tolerent. Speed 80-100MHz. 144pin TQFP 56309, 20k program, 7k X and Y ram. 3.3V core and I/O. I/O is not 5V tolerent. Speed 80-100MHz. 144pin TQFP or PBGA (Plastic Ball Grid Array) package. 56307, 48k program, 8k X and Y ram, or 16k P ram and 24 X & Y ram 1.8V or 2.5V core and 3.3V I/O. Speed 100-160MHz. BGA package only. 56307 also comes with an independent Co-processor on board. All the Motorola tools are free even the gnu C compiler. I used the C compiler once and didn't like it. It produced slow code and didn't even support a fractional data type !! Not much use if your processor work in fractional arithmetic. I do all of my DSP programming in assembler. Alternatively try Texas or Analog Devices. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/e2dc18cd/attachment.html From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Dec 10 13:55:08 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF68@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>; from csmith@amdocs.com on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:19:46 CET References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF68@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011210205508.E21785@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.10 16:19 Christopher Smith wrote: > > KA410-A V1.2 > > F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1_.. > > ?DKA0... KA410-W V2.3 F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. ? E 0040 0000.0045 ? D 0050 0000.0005 ? C 0080 0000.4001 ?? 5 0001 0000.0002 ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 >>> b dka2 -DKA2 >> NetBSD/vax boot [Jul 29 2000 02:31:03] << >> Press any key to abort autoboot 0 > boot netbsd -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ p.s. Yes, this VS2k is able to boot from SCSI. :-) From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Dec 10 14:03:10 2001 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Happy DEC-10 Day! Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F37@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Happy DEC-10 Day to all that remember the venerable olde beaste! Some of my happiest memories of college (WPI) involved hacking on the poor thing back in `73-`77... -al- -acorda@1bigred.com From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Dec 10 14:07:42 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Availability of DSP56K chips Message-ID: <160.5598bc3.2946700e@aol.com> Carlos Sorry I got carried away. If all you need is a slave processor and 20Mips, then the 56303-EVM is ideal. You get 64k x 8 flash, 32k x 24 fast SRAM, a 16-bit stereo codec and a pin header for the host port. Also included is a 56002 which acts as an RS232 to JTAG interface for Domain Technologies Debug-56k debugger, also free from Domain Technologies, www.domaintec.com. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/b90182ad/attachment.html From vcf at vintage.org Mon Dec 10 14:08:27 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: A hypothetical Message-ID: Let's say a DEC PDP-1 comes up for auction. The economy is good and times are stable. What would you be willing to pay for a DEC PDP-1? This is strictly a hypothetical. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Dec 10 06:50:57 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 09 Dec 2001 12:16:31 MST." <3C13B88F.CE4AFC9C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200112101250.MAA12436@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ben Franchuk said: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > True, but back in those days, that wasn't a fatal limitation. Besides, > > the 8-bitters didn't really have a OS, more of a structured program > > loader. If all you need to do is read in executables and read/write > > data files, you don't need a full OS. > > In retospect I would say people expected BASIC to run rom. I/O > was a feature only used to save your programs, maybe even data. > The Apple,TRS-80?,Pets,C64's,Coco's,IBM-PC all come to mind. > CP/M was the most common real OS, but lets not forget about > 6800/6809 machines running FLEX or OS/9. Can I just put a word in for LDOS (for TRS-80) - one of the better 8-bit operating systems. I really missed some of it's capabilies when I moved to MSDOS (V. 2-point-something), particularly the device independence and easy driver and filter installation. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cdrice at pobox.com Mon Dec 10 11:07:04 2001 From: cdrice at pobox.com (Charles Dee Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Several Apollo computers for free - Raleigh, NC Message-ID: <3C14EBB8.59EECC3C@pobox.com> My mail to this list keeps bouncing, but I'm still getting the digests. I haven't seen my message in a digest, so I'm assuming no one else saw it either. So, here we go (again) -- sorry if everyone gets this three times... -------- Original Message -------- I've been following this list for some time; however, recent family emergencies have required me to give up most of my hobbies for some time, and likely in the future. I'm also having to move rather quickly across the state and sell my home in Raleigh; I'm selling and giving away a number of things that I just don't see myself having time to deal with in the near future. Among them are several Apollo computers, and stack of misc. hardware (token ring parts and cables, misc. video and i/o cables, etc). and a very large stack of documentation. There are free (unless you feel compelled to make a donation to the feed- a-Chuck fund). :) >From my notes (I do NOT absolutely guarantee this is accurate): - 3500 with: - 170MB HD - SMS/Omti controller - mono video card - 19" mono monitor - 32MB RAM - 3COM 3C505 - DomainOS 10.4.1 - 5 1/4" disk drive - 3000 (unknown contents) - 3500 (unknown contents) - 2500 (unknown contents) - Another CPU (maybe a 4000?) with color card and monitor; I don't have all the specs with me, but it was fully functional when I last shut it down. - Apollo token ring - Isolan multiplex repeater - Lots of misc. parts (cables, keyboards, etc.) - Lots and lots of books; some still in original shrink-wrap **I WILL NOT SHIP THESE ITEMS.** Sorry; they're just too heavy and bulky for me to package and ship; I just have too much else going on right now. With everything going on, I STRONGLY prefer someone take everything. I will not be able to take the time to go through any of this and pick out parts that people want. I am in Garner, NC (just south of Raleigh). I can provide exact location and directions upon request. I am usually only in town on Thursdays and Fridays. Please email me if you are interested and we can work out the details. Please help me find a home for these guys; if I don't find a taker pretty soon, they'll have to go to the recyclers. - Chuck -- | Charles Dee Rice ------------------------------------- cdrice@pobox.com | | "You know how it is with me baby - You know I just can't stand myself | | It takes a whole lot of medicine, darlin' | | For me to pretend I'm somebody else." | -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nsmail3C14EB1F00805B1 Type: text/rfc822-headers Size: 598 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/c911da40/nsmail3C14EB1F00805B1.bin From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Dec 10 16:56:13 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Several Apollo computers for free - Raleigh, NC Message-ID: <95.142d6934.2946978d@aol.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 5:22:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, cdrice@pobox.com writes: << Among them are several Apollo computers, and stack of misc. hardware (token ring parts and cables, misc. video and i/o cables, etc). and a very large stack of documentation. >> wish I had the space; I'm within 25 miles of the computers. From curt at atari-history.com Mon Dec 10 14:30:40 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Availability of DSP56K chips References: <3.0.2.32.20011210124142.00ee08e4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <006e01c181b9$8bb78e80$2135ff0a@cvendel> Those DSPs were used heavily in the Atari Falcon030 multimedia systems, Best Electronics carries them in stock: www.best-electronics-ca.com Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Murillo" To: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 12:41 PM Subject: Availability of DSP56K chips > > Hi everyone; > > It's been a while since I last coded stuff for robot control. The last > time I did that, the DSP56K (dsp56001 in particular) chips were > readily available. Now I need to develop a new platform for > research purposes and I am finding that the once ubiquitous dsp56k > chips have been eol'd (end-of-line'd in motorola parlance). > The suggested replacements are the dsp56301 or 303 chips, which > are code compatible, have 24 bit addressing (instead of 16 bit), > run at 80MIPs instead of 20, and have all the glue logic > for PCI or ISA interfacing built-in (dsp56301, which makes sense in my > application because the robot supervisor will be a Linux server > receiving commands from robot application clients over tcp/ip; > the dsp will be a slave that does the low level yet massive > number crunching stuff). So why don't I just go and choose > the newer parts? Several reasons: > > 1) I'd prefer to go with unix-based free software tools. There is > a56k and gcc56k for the dsp56k. While the dsp56.3k is supposedly > code-compatible, I am sure that some tweaking would be required to > make these tools work with the new family, and compilers are not > my area of expertise. > > 2) The older parts have roughly 100 pins and can be wirewrapped, the > new parts have 192 pins and require modern pcb design and production > techniques, which are outrageously expensive in this corner of the > world. I am not comfortable wire-wrapping a design that runs at > 80MHz instead of 20. > > 3) From experience, I know that 20MIPS is enough for the task at hand. > > So, I am faced with a familiar problem; an old part that will do the > job in a simpler design is no longer (readily) available; there is > a new, better, faster part, but there aren't as many software goodies > to go with it, and the hardware design tools and fabrication are more > expensive. The key issue is the present availability of the older > parts. I've checked some places and they seem to actually be out > of these chips. So my question to the list is: do you know where > to get dsp56001A chips? Or better yet, do you have some that you don't > plan to use? > > > carlos. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Dec 10 14:36:45 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: A hypothetical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011210123258.02ab1500@mcmanis.com> Well if I were using hypothetical dollars, maybe $100,000 to $150,000 :-) But with real money it would stop bidding after it crossed $1,000. Now I *could* trade a dozen VAXen for it :-) I suspect an honorable auction house could get $25,000 for it. Looking at things that have sold in the past that seems like the "right" price. That also presumes that it works and is complete. A partial PDP-1 wouldn't be worth nearly as much and one that didn't have the tube would be worth less still. Of course, if you could get TWO truly enthusiastic collectors who would are independently wealthy into the auction the sky would be the limit. --Chuck At 12:08 PM 12/10/01, you wrote: >Let's say a DEC PDP-1 comes up for auction. The economy is good and times >are stable. > >What would you be willing to pay for a DEC PDP-1? > >This is strictly a hypothetical. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 10 14:56:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: A hypothetical Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AAA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Let's say a DEC PDP-1 comes up for auction. The economy is > good and times are stable. > > What would you be willing to pay for a DEC PDP-1? > > This is strictly a hypothetical. I'd be willing to pay everything I've got, which would *not* be enough to be the winning bidder. So, the real question should be, what would an auction of a PDP-1 top out at? -dq From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 10 15:07:39 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Question about older keyboards. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have an old keyboard with those soldered on keycap assemblies. One of the key mechanisms broke off and now I'm receiving random characters on the screen. The missing key is the #3 key. Could the fact that this mechanism is missing cause this kind of problem, or would the computer see that missing key as un-pressed but otherwise no problem. Some other part of the keyboard my be broken but I'm trying to narrow down where to begin trouble shooting. When I turn the computer on, it sort of runs amuck as though I were pressing a bunch of random keys but then quiets down after start up but refuses to let me type anything. Plus, on the screen are 10 to 20 mixed letters and numbers on the line were I am supposed to enter a command -load, save, run, etc. E. From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 10 14:38:35 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF78@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] > > It also has (...and this is the reason I rescued it, even > though it is an > > intel machine) a really odd graphics adaptor with a 15-pin (two row > > D-shaped) connector that drives a full-page monochrome > (white) EGA monitor. > Sounds Mac like. You're not kidding. The installation of MS-DOS on the disk resides in the "SYSTEM" directory. That aside, I get the impression they used GEM desktop (there are small components stuck in with the installation of ventura publisher -- either it came with ventura or was part of the system...) There is also a more "standard" monitor plug next to the strange one (on the same card)... > Thanks, Chris, I appreciate the info. Sorry I cannot help you. Thanks for the attempt. If they made an 8000, maybe I should keep an eye out. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 10 14:38:49 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AA8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I have noticed > that machines with either residue (pot or cigs) don't tend to > have mice live > in them when sotred - I tried this by putting a bag of > tobacco (cloth bag) > inside and purposely left a filler plate off - no mice. The > machine without > had all sorts of acorn shells, poop, nesting materials, etc though. Great tip, thanks, the old IBM 716 Line Printer was *full* of that; had I known I could stick a pack of Viceroys in there to cure it, I might not have dismantled it... -dq From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Dec 10 16:57:12 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AA8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AA8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011210225712.GA8356@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 03:38:49PM -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I have noticed > > that machines with either residue (pot or cigs) don't tend to > > have mice live > > in them when sotred - I tried this by putting a bag of > > tobacco (cloth bag) > > inside and purposely left a filler plate off - no mice. The > > machine without > > had all sorts of acorn shells, poop, nesting materials, etc though. > > Great tip, thanks, the old IBM 716 Line Printer was *full* > of that; had I known I could stick a pack of Viceroys in > there to cure it, I might not have dismantled it... Seems like the mice "know" that nicotine is a strong toxin. Regards, Alex. -- q: If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor? a: I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word. -- Harald Koenig asking Donald E. Knuth From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 10 17:04:20 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Dec 10, 1 10:41:04 am" Message-ID: <200112102304.PAA09126@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > > I understand they're high in protein. Maybe this person ate them over > their keyboard like others eat snacks? :) If they weren't eating snacks before they ate the marijuana seeds, they certainly were afterwards. :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Funny, I don't remember being absent minded. ------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 10 15:45:55 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <20011210205508.E21785@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > On 2001.12.10 16:19 Christopher Smith wrote: > > > > KA410-A V1.2 > > > F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1_.. > > > > ?DKA0... > KA410-W V2.3 > > F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. > > > ? E 0040 0000.0045 > ? D 0050 0000.0005 > ? C 0080 0000.4001 > ?? 5 0001 0000.0002 > ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 > > >>> b dka2 > > > -DKA2 > > >> NetBSD/vax boot [Jul 29 2000 02:31:03] << > >> Press any key to abort autoboot 0 > > boot netbsd > -- **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 **** 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE READY. g. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 10 16:59:43 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Dec 10, 1 01:45:55 pm" Message-ID: <200112102259.OAA11622@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 **** > 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE > > READY. (Darn, you beat me to it! ... so,) (C) 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd [K] -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Really???? WOW!!!!! I'm shallow TOO!!!!! ----------------------------------- From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 10 16:11:04 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: MIPS RISComputer M/120 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF79@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi everybody, I have -- in various stages of repair -- three MIPS RISComputers. The model is M/120. I'm in need of an operating system (and maybe even software :) that will run on these. They were given to me without hard drives. Any ideas? Also, can anyone tell me what's the normal amount of RAM for these to have? One of them has two or three (don't remember) RAM boards, and one has five. The third has no RAM, and I wonder whether I could divide the boards between them and still have something reasonable. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ip500 at home.com Mon Dec 10 14:40:54 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: ABS type glue / was ASR-33 References: Message-ID: <3C151DD6.CE67DA06@home.com> Check out a sporting goods store that sells whitewater canoes. Most are made from ABS of some sort [Royalite, Royaltex, Oltenar] all come from basic ABS sandwich stock. They should have a really tough glue for mounting tie points and thigh harness to the bottom of the interior. IN my experience .. NOTHING else will bond to the ABS. Tothwolf wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Anyway, the metal on both machines seems to be in good shape, but the > > plastic leaves something to be desired. The ASR is mostly just dirty, > > but there is a crack at the left rear screw position. The KSR is > > cleaner as it was used less, but it was stored improperly in a box and > > dropped or something and the plastic upper case (the gray case, not > > the white/yellow cover over the carriage) is broken into several > > pieces. So does anybody have recommendations as to glue or other > > solutions? Is someone sitting on a big stock of spare upper shells? > > Use a glue specially for ABS plastic. Most so-called plastic and model > glues are for polystyrene and won't bond ABS since they are not strong > enough. Let me know what you find, since I'm also looking for glue to use > on tons of broken ABS cases. I've been told that there is a glue made for > an ABS type of drain pipe. PVC glue won't work either, it tends to damage > ABS plastics. > > -Toth From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Mon Dec 10 16:59:07 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: MIPS RISComputer M/120 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF79@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On 10-Dec-2001 Christopher Smith wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I have -- in various stages of repair -- three MIPS RISComputers. The > model is M/120. I'm in need of an operating system (and maybe even > software :) that will run on these. RISC/os is what you want. It's a derivative of BSD, iirc. > They were given to me without hard drives. Any ideas? Any SCSI-1 drive should work. 50 pin headers. > One of them has two or three (don't remember) RAM boards, and one has > five. The third has no RAM, and I wonder whether I could divide the > boards between them and still have something reasonable. The boards are 8 mb each. IMHO, with the noise these things make, put all the RAM boards you can (max 6) into one of them, and use it. Others serving as spare parts. -Philip From allain at panix.com Mon Dec 10 16:59:08 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: A hypothetical References: Message-ID: <015e01c181ce$46f51f00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > What would you be willing to pay for a DEC PDP-1? > This is strictly a hypothetical. I suppose I could give up $1~2K to assist a _nationally_ recognized museum (charitable) to get something neat for itself and its visitors. As for me? the problem is space. I went to someone's garage sale once where he could house 4 cars abreast and had room for two more cars sideways in the back. Sorry but that aint my garage. (If it was, there'd be 1 car and...) Regarding the bigge$t buck$ for a sale issue, a PDP-1 might go for less than another machine, even DEC, since so few used one and therefore would have the pleasant memories. Are there ever any auctions of computers, period, other than online or industrial? John A. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 10 17:12:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > On 2001.12.10 16:19 Christopher Smith wrote: >> >> > > KA410-A V1.2 >> > > F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1_.. >> > >> > ?DKA0... >> KA410-W V2.3 >> >> F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. >> >> >> ? E 0040 0000.0045 >> ? D 0050 0000.0005 >> ? C 0080 0000.4001 >> ?? 5 0001 0000.0002 >> ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 >> >> >>> b dka2 >> >> >> -DKA2 >> >> >> NetBSD/vax boot [Jul 29 2000 02:31:03] << >> >> Press any key to abort autoboot 0 >> > boot netbsd >> -- > > > **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 **** > 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE > >READY. > S-BUG 1.8 - 56k >U FLEX 2.8:1 DATE (MM,DD,YY)? 12,10,01 DECEMBER 10, 191 The current time is 134:19:167 +++ -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 10 18:35:30 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <200112102259.OAA11622@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 **** > > 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE > > > > READY. > (Darn, you beat me to it! ... so,) > > (C) 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd > [K] > TRSDOS - DISK OPERATING SYSTEM - VER 2.3 DOS READY BASIC_ HOW MANY FILES? MEMORY SIZE? RADIO SHACK DISK BASIC VERSION 2.2 READY >_ g. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 10 17:24:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: A hypothetical In-Reply-To: <015e01c181ce$46f51f00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <015e01c181ce$46f51f00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >Are there ever any auctions of computers, period, other than online >or industrial? Anymore it's most likely to be common PC stuff, but you used to be able to get some pretty cool non-DOS/WIndows stuff from government DRMO auctions. Places such as Navy Research Lab in Washington D.C. had oodles of non-PC stuff, such as NeXT's, Osborne's, Atari ST's, Amiga's...you name it. Six or seven years ago I got quite a bit of interesting stuff at such auctions when I was first starting to really build this collection. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 10 16:39:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Dec 9, 1 10:27:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 609 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/7099f5f5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 10 16:52:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: H89 docs/help requested In-Reply-To: <20011210041707.NYNZ8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Dec 9, 1 11:00:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2042 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/40619b9d/attachment.ksh From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Dec 10 13:16:39 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: References: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <20011211001224.CSTE23490.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Russ Blakeman" > To: > Subject: RE: Smoking around computers > Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:11:31 -0600 > Importance: Normal > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > The tar and other solids do have thier effects on machines, just basically > depends on where it is in conjuction to the smoke you exhale and the ashtray > with the smoldering cigs - I took one apart that I used a lot when I did > smoke - pew did it wreak! I never noticed it when I smoked though and I > noticed also since I'm a non-smoker (not an anti-smoker though like many > that quit) that the machines that I did smoke near have a brown film on them > inside and out, and that the fans and inside power siupplies are loaded with > dust that the tar collected with. These stinky cig stuff isn't easy to clean off. Requires straight non-inflammable commerical degreaser (salt-based) that is safe on plastic and metal, that wonderful stuff as a bonus did eat off some rust too. I was lucky to find one locally at a cleaning shop. Anything else I tried did get most of that but stink remains. That degreaser did it then traded away the machine. (peecee) Vinyl based stuff asborbs that cig junk, has to be replaced, cannot be easily removed. Most of wiring insulation is vinyl. Hard plastics sightly asborbs but with time u can get it clean. Cheers, Wizard From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 10 18:52:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:41 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <200112102304.PAA09126@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > > > > I understand they're high in protein. Maybe this person ate them over > > their keyboard like others eat snacks? :) > > If they weren't eating snacks before they ate the marijuana seeds, they > certainly were afterwards. :-P Sounds like this comes from someone who knows? :) Just busting your chops. There's nothing wrong with smoking something that Mother Nature put on Earth. Shame on those that think otherwise. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 10 18:16:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Question about older keyboards. In-Reply-To: from "Ernest" at Dec 10, 1 01:07:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/50585e7c/attachment.ksh From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 10 18:17:38 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: A hypothetical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Are there ever any auctions of computers, period, other than online > >or industrial? > > Anymore it's most likely to be common PC stuff, but you used to be > able to get some pretty cool non-DOS/WIndows stuff from government > DRMO auctions. Places such as Navy Research Lab in Washington D.C. > had oodles of non-PC stuff, such as NeXT's, Osborne's, Atari ST's, > Amiga's...you name it. Six or seven years ago I got quite a bit of > interesting stuff at such auctions when I was first starting to really > build this collection. University of Texas surplus auctions were a good place to find old gear up till Texas passed a bill regarding the sale of used computer equipment from government agencies. Now they send all the old computer gear to the prison system...I saw 3-4 AS-400 IBM systems about a year ago, and they wouldn't auction them off...they sent them to the prisons...Sad thing is, I imagine they all ended up sold to a scrap metal dealer. Speaking of auctions in Texas, we have an auction in Houston on Wednesday, there won't be any computers or monitors in it, but it might have other stuff worth looking at. I usually end up repairing about 75% of the things I buy at these auctions before I can use them. I'm planning to attend this auction unless something comes up. Is there anyone else here who might show up? Heres a url with more info: http://www.shattuck.com/Live_Auctions/live_auctions.html -Toth From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 10 18:40:20 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: Does anyone know where I might find prints for a PDP-11/70? Like complete prints? I was intrigued as I studied my own 11/70 with the possibility of implementing an 11/70 in modern high-speed discrete logic. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 10 19:24:08 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 9 18:30:55 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. References: Message-ID: <3C14023F.2BC8E142@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > > Peace... Sridhar So the Misses kicked you out again for the night! :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 10 19:41:14 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: I've discovered a new pleasure. (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: Message-ID: <15381.25658.991630.472921@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 10, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. Uhhhh Sridhar, you ok man? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 10 20:09:45 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <15381.25658.991630.472921@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > > Uhhhh > > Sridhar, you ok man? Perfectly ok. Simple pleasures for simple minds, you know. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 10 20:23:52 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 10, 2001 08:41:14 PM Message-ID: <200112110223.fBB2NqO03858@shell1.aracnet.com> > On December 10, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > > Uhhhh > > Sridhar, you ok man? > > -Dave Good question, comments like that are scarry :^) Especially since it reveals that he's got a storage locker that isn't completely full :^) Zane From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Dec 10 19:37:27 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <7a.1f4aed55.2946bd57@aol.com> Sorry can't help with the 11/70. On a similar thread, for those interested in HP stuff - I did find a schematic for an HP2116 32-bit floating point CORDIC co-processor. It's all in US patent 3766370 dated 1973. Patent contains complete schematic, flow charts and microcode. Uses some logic family I've never heard of, SL159XX series ? Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011210/69044fa6/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 10 19:42:24 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Several Apollo computers for free - Raleigh, NC Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AAD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > **I WILL NOT SHIP THESE ITEMS.** Sorry; they're just too > heavy and bulky > for me to package and ship; I just have too much else going > on right now. > With everything going on, I STRONGLY prefer someone take > everything. I will > not be able to take the time to go through any of this and > pick out parts > that people want. If someone fairly close to Raleigh is on the list, doesn't lust for these, and is wiling to give me a hand, I'd like to get as least the docs, or see them go to someone who can and will get them scanned fairly soon, I'm a bit in the dark running my Apollos (the FAQ helps as does some other info on the web). I would not mind seeing the entire haul in my hands but I've got 3 systems of similar vintage, so I don't want to be a pig. Anyone near him? -dq From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 10 20:42:29 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Dec 10, 1 04:52:18 pm" Message-ID: <200112110242.SAA08344@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > > > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > > > > > > I understand they're high in protein. Maybe this person ate them over > > > their keyboard like others eat snacks? :) > > > > If they weren't eating snacks before they ate the marijuana seeds, they > > certainly were afterwards. :-P > > Sounds like this comes from someone who knows? :) I'm less than two years away from my MD -- of course I know! ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. -- 1 Corinthians 8:1 --------------- From bob at jfcl.com Mon Dec 10 19:57:01 2001 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Free DEC stuff in Milpitas CA Message-ID: <01121018570109@jfcl.com> I have the following mostly (but not all) DEC stuff to give away FREE. All you have to do is pick it up in Milpitas CA (next door to San Jose). * A VAXstation-2000. No disks (you'll need to find an RD5x/3x for it). No guarantees of condition, either, but then it is free :-) * A VAXstation-3100/30. No disks (but you can use almost any SCSI drive). No guarantees of condition, either, but then it is free :-) * A Sophia Systems SA-2000 8-bit ICE. This is a self contained CP/M machine from the early 80s in a "luggable" case something like the KayPro or Osborne. Includes SA-DOS boot diskettes but no pods (it boots and runs just fine with out them). * A DECmate-II RX50 system (no hard disk) WITHOUT the 6120 CPU chip. System unit only - no monitor or keyboard. * About half a dozen DEC orange binders (empty). * A MicroVMS (VMS v4.x) manual set, in orange binders. * Most of an OpenVMS v7.x manual set (perfect bound). * A padded, sound proof printer enclosure for a 14" dot matrix printer, including a fan. I only read this list in digest form, and I'm way behind on that, so please write to me directly if you're interested in anything. Bob From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 10 21:01:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <3C14023F.2BC8E142@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > So the Misses kicked you out again for the night! :) Well, I suppose if I *had* a misses. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 10 21:02:40 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <200112110223.fBB2NqO03858@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > > > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > > > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > > > > Uhhhh > > > > Sridhar, you ok man? > > Good question, comments like that are scarry :^) Especially since it > reveals that he's got a storage locker that isn't completely full :^) It doesn't reveal anything of the sort! I was sitting on top of an IBM PC Server 500 and the PPC was on top of a three-foot-tall mound of cables! Peace... Sridhar From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Dec 10 21:08:55 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <200112110223.fBB2NqO03858@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200112110308.QAA16874@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> "Zane H. Healy" : > Good question, comments like that are scarry :^) Especially since it > reveals that he's got a storage locker that isn't completely full > :^) And is big enough to need a space heater. Although, come to think of it, he didn't actually say the space heater was turned on... Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 9 20:17:38 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. References: Message-ID: <3C141B42.F6A31315@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > Well, I suppose if I *had* a misses. 8-) > Try this ... It may get you in the mood to find a Misses. http://www.peachprincess.com/ ( Mature games - not porn ). Cause after a few weeks of BASIC, your mind slowly goes. :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 10 21:39:18 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <200112110308.QAA16874@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> from "Greg Ewing" at Dec 11, 2001 04:08:55 PM Message-ID: <200112110339.fBB3dIH06484@shell1.aracnet.com> > And is big enough to need a space heater. Although, come to > think of it, he didn't actually say the space heater was > turned on... That doesn't mean much, I think he's in New York somewhere. So this time of year it could be rather chilly in any size Storage Locker! Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 10 21:42:45 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: from "Boatman on the River of Suck" at Dec 10, 2001 10:02:40 PM Message-ID: <200112110342.fBB3gji06646@shell1.aracnet.com> > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > > > > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > > > > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > > > > > > Uhhhh > > > > > > Sridhar, you ok man? > > > > Good question, comments like that are scarry :^) Especially since it > > reveals that he's got a storage locker that isn't completely full :^) > > It doesn't reveal anything of the sort! I was sitting on top of an IBM PC > Server 500 and the PPC was on top of a three-foot-tall mound of cables! > > Peace... Sridhar OK, now you just plain scare me since I assume you're doing this without a safety observer! My two storage units sound like they aren't as bad as yours, and it's gotten to the point I like to have my wife along when I'm digging just to act as a safety observer. It's nice to know that there is someone to go for help if something goes wrong, and that's with stuff for the most part neatly, stacked on either shelves or the floor. Zane From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Dec 10 21:33:53 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: how to transfer binaries to VMS with kermit? Message-ID: <3C157EA1.2040201@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I'm ripping my hair out over VMS (as usual). I have a little magic file that I need to transfer from PC to VAX. And kermit on both ends. I thought I knew how to use kermit, but no matter what I do, the file will never work as an executable on the VAX. It always complains about a corrupt descriptor block and it comes up too long. The file is exactly 2048 bytes long and when I send it it comes up as 5/6 blocks with DIR/SIZE=ALL. That is one block too many, isn't it? The funny thing is, when I do a round trip with kermit PC -put-> VAX -get-> PC, I get two identical files on the PC. But when I do VAX -get-> PC -put-> VAX of a working .EXE file on the VAX, I end up with a broken copy (same error.) So, what can I do? I have SET FILE TYPE BINARY on both sides. I'm so sorry for bothering you with my VMS ignorance, I greatly appreciate your patience and help. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 10 21:49:11 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Question about older keyboards. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:17 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Question about older keyboards. > > > > > I have an old keyboard with those soldered on keycap > assemblies. One of the > > A general point : Please post the make/model and any other information > that will identify the unit. Somebody may know the exact device you are > talking about, and/or have a service manual for it. I considered this but I don't think that anyone here knows anything about this keyboard. It looks like a very simple homemade job -hand soldered anyway. It isn't wire-wrapped but close to it. > > key mechanisms broke off and now I'm receiving random characters on the > > screen. The missing key is the #3 key. Could the fact that this > mechanism is > > missing cause this kind of problem, or would the computer see > that missing > > It depends : > 2) If it's totally missing, and only has 2 connections, then it's a > switch. Having it missing should cause no problems, it will just appear > not to ever be pressed This is the case on this keyboard. The board has one TI SN74159N chip that all the keys connect to at one place or another. It's discription is: 4-LINE TO 16-LINE DECODERS/DEMULTIPLEXERS WITH OPEN COLLECTOR OUTPUTS. Looking at the keyboard, aside from the missing key mechanism, the board "looks" OK. It's even dust free. There is one thing that's interesting but I'm not sure if it's a bad thing or not. There is what looks like an intentional solder bridge between the 6-7 pins (if the notch faces away from you, it's on the right side in the middle.) So, if the keyboard seems to be OK, where would I next look for the cause of a few random characters being generated on startup? Any tips here will help. Thanks. E. > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 10 21:56:11 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <20011211043429.VKZF9714.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. You got it from Sellam, right? ;>) Glen 0/0 From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Dec 10 22:02:41 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: how to transfer binaries to VMS with kermit? References: <3C157EA1.2040201@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C158561.8060602@aurora.regenstrief.org> The answer was SET FILE TYPE FIXED. But how about this: %STDRV-I-STARTUP, OpenVMS startup begun at 10-DEC-2001 22:56:23.89 %SYSGEN-E-SYSVERDIF, system version mismatch - reassemble and relink driver -SYSGEN-I-DRIVENAM, driver name is SIDRIVER %SYSGEN-E-SYSVERDIF, system version mismatch - reassemble and relink driver -SYSGEN-I-DRIVENAM, driver name is SIDRIVER this driver version mismatch prevents me from doing a SYSGEN etc. Where can I turn off dependency to this driver? -Gunther Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I'm ripping my hair out over VMS (as usual). I have a little > magic file that I need to transfer from PC to VAX. And > kermit on both ends. I thought I knew how to use kermit, > but no matter what I do, the file will never work as an > executable on the VAX. It always complains about a corrupt > descriptor block and it comes up too long. The file is > exactly 2048 bytes long and when I send it it comes up as > 5/6 blocks with DIR/SIZE=ALL. That is one block too many, > isn't it? > > The funny thing is, when I do a round trip with kermit > PC -put-> VAX -get-> PC, I get two identical files on the > PC. But when I do VAX -get-> PC -put-> VAX of a working > .EXE file on the VAX, I end up with a broken copy (same > error.) So, what can I do? > > I have SET FILE TYPE BINARY on both sides. > > I'm so sorry for bothering you with my VMS ignorance, I > greatly appreciate your patience and help. > > regards > -Gunther > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Dec 10 22:02:41 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: how to transfer binaries to VMS with kermit? References: <3C157EA1.2040201@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C158561.8060602@aurora.regenstrief.org> The answer was SET FILE TYPE FIXED. But how about this: %STDRV-I-STARTUP, OpenVMS startup begun at 10-DEC-2001 22:56:23.89 %SYSGEN-E-SYSVERDIF, system version mismatch - reassemble and relink driver -SYSGEN-I-DRIVENAM, driver name is SIDRIVER %SYSGEN-E-SYSVERDIF, system version mismatch - reassemble and relink driver -SYSGEN-I-DRIVENAM, driver name is SIDRIVER this driver version mismatch prevents me from doing a SYSGEN etc. Where can I turn off dependency to this driver? -Gunther Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I'm ripping my hair out over VMS (as usual). I have a little > magic file that I need to transfer from PC to VAX. And > kermit on both ends. I thought I knew how to use kermit, > but no matter what I do, the file will never work as an > executable on the VAX. It always complains about a corrupt > descriptor block and it comes up too long. The file is > exactly 2048 bytes long and when I send it it comes up as > 5/6 blocks with DIR/SIZE=ALL. That is one block too many, > isn't it? > > The funny thing is, when I do a round trip with kermit > PC -put-> VAX -get-> PC, I get two identical files on the > PC. But when I do VAX -get-> PC -put-> VAX of a working > .EXE file on the VAX, I end up with a broken copy (same > error.) So, what can I do? > > I have SET FILE TYPE BINARY on both sides. > > I'm so sorry for bothering you with my VMS ignorance, I > greatly appreciate your patience and help. > > regards > -Gunther > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 10 22:36:06 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: how to transfer binaries to VMS with kermit? In-Reply-To: <3C157EA1.2040201@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Dec 10, 2001 10:33:53 PM Message-ID: <200112110436.fBB4a6q23074@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I'm ripping my hair out over VMS (as usual). I have a little > magic file that I need to transfer from PC to VAX. And > kermit on both ends. I thought I knew how to use kermit, > but no matter what I do, the file will never work as an > executable on the VAX. It always complains about a corrupt > descriptor block and it comes up too long. The file is > exactly 2048 bytes long and when I send it it comes up as > 5/6 blocks with DIR/SIZE=ALL. That is one block too many, > isn't it? > > The funny thing is, when I do a round trip with kermit > PC -put-> VAX -get-> PC, I get two identical files on the > PC. But when I do VAX -get-> PC -put-> VAX of a working > .EXE file on the VAX, I end up with a broken copy (same > error.) So, what can I do? > > I have SET FILE TYPE BINARY on both sides. > > I'm so sorry for bothering you with my VMS ignorance, I > greatly appreciate your patience and help. Can you post a DIR/FULL? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 10 22:30:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <200112110308.QAA16874@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Greg Ewing wrote: > > Good question, comments like that are scarry :^) Especially since it > > reveals that he's got a storage locker that isn't completely full > > :^) > > And is big enough to need a space heater. Although, come to > think of it, he didn't actually say the space heater was > turned on... Ok. The storage locker isn't *completely* full, although it has multiple big-iron VAXen and two IBM mainframes complete with peripherals in it. And the space heater is on, but is just enough to heat only the area just in front of it. There's a radiant heating system in the floor of the locker, but it doesn't help all that much when it's close to 0F outside. Peace... Sridhar From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 10 22:32:22 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: H89 docs/help requested Message-ID: <20011211043436.VLAD9714.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Tony Duell > The H89 is a little strange. It's really a serial terminal (almost the > same as a H19) and a Z80-based computer in the same box. Yes, they > communicate via an RS232 link between the terminal logic board and the > CPU board. A *little* strange? > So the problem could be in just about any area of the unit. Great! ;>) > I would start by ignoring the computer part for the moment and turning it > back into a terminal. Disconnect the 0.1" header jumper between the > terminal logic PCB and the CPU PCB. Connect one of the serial sockets on > the back (normally connected to the triple serial card plugged into the > CPU board) to the connector on the terminal logic PCB. And then short > pins 2 and 3 on this serial socket. [snip a lot more really expert advice] Tony, thanks a million. I'd really like to get this baby up and running, as it's the only machine I have which uses 5.25" hard-sectored floppies. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to identify the components you mention by eyeballing them (I have no docs) and am looking forward to doing this in the next week or so, but in the meantime, can you answer just one more question for me: How do I open this friggin' box!@!$#&! TIA, Glen 0/0 From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 10 22:56:20 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <3C141B42.F6A31315@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Well, I suppose if I *had* a misses. 8-) > > > Try this ... It may get you in the mood to find a Misses. > http://www.peachprincess.com/ ( Mature games - not porn ). > Cause after a few weeks of BASIC, your mind slowly goes. :) LOL. We shall see. Peace... Sridhar From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Dec 10 22:59:01 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: how to transfer binaries to VMS with kermit? References: <3C157EA1.2040201@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <00ff01c18200$8d682c70$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: how to transfer binaries to VMS with kermit? > Hi, > > I'm ripping my hair out over VMS (as usual). I have a little > magic file that I need to transfer from PC to VAX. What is the 'magic' file supposed to do? > kermit on both ends. I thought I knew how to use kermit, Kermit is a bitch of a thing. VMS Kermit is a real bitch of a thing. Personal experience. What version? > but no matter what I do, the file will never work as an > executable on the VAX. It always complains about a corrupt > descriptor block and it comes up too long. The file is > exactly 2048 bytes long and when I send it it comes up as > 5/6 blocks with DIR/SIZE=ALL. That is one block too many, > isn't it? Not necessarily. True Size of file data in blocks / Actual number of blocks used to store the file. Often different. I have files that are 1 and 3. > The funny thing is, when I do a round trip with kermit > PC -put-> VAX -get-> PC, I get two identical files on the > PC. But when I do VAX -get-> PC -put-> VAX of a working > .EXE file on the VAX, I end up with a broken copy (same > error.) So, what can I do? > > I have SET FILE TYPE BINARY on both sides. I vaguely remember something else needs to be tweaked. In Receive Parameters I think. > > I'm so sorry for bothering you with my VMS ignorance, I > greatly appreciate your patience and help. You have probably just been playing with Unix too long. ;^) Does the VAX have ZIP and UNZIP on it? Can you do the following at the terminal and give me the results? SHO LICENSE SHO SYSTEM SHO NET SHO DEV SHO TERM And from inside Kermit sho all cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 10 23:09:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: Message-ID: <002e01c18201$f8f3f400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 10:26 AM Subject: Re: Smoking around computers > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a > > convert, as they say ... > > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > > D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? > Gee ... I thought that was a cup holder ... > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 10 23:18:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: Message-ID: <006601c18203$570d80a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Hmmmm ... CANNIBUS??? Is there an IEEE standard for that one? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 12:14 PM Subject: RE: Smoking around computers > I had a machine from one of the ITT Tech schools the same way - cannibus > keyboard. I think that the pot smoke is actually worse than even the > heaviest of non-filter cigs smoke - the residues from a pot smoker's PC > really are funky when they've sat in storage for a while but I have noticed > that machines with either residue (pot or cigs) don't tend to have mice live > in them when sotred - I tried this by putting a bag of tobacco (cloth bag) > inside and purposely left a filler plate off - no mice. The machine without > had all sorts of acorn shells, poop, nesting materials, etc though. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > -> (XenoSoft) > -> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:27 AM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: Smoking around computers > -> > -> > -> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > -> > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no > -> Catholic like a > -> > convert, as they say ... > -> > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > -> > -> D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? > -> > -> > -> I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > -> chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > -> > -> > -> > -> > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 10 23:37:06 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AA8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Moth balls work too but you have to be careful holding the moths down while you get their balls. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 2:39 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Smoking around computers -> -> -> > I have noticed -> > that machines with either residue (pot or cigs) don't tend to -> > have mice live -> > in them when sotred - I tried this by putting a bag of -> > tobacco (cloth bag) -> > inside and purposely left a filler plate off - no mice. The -> > machine without -> > had all sorts of acorn shells, poop, nesting materials, etc though. -> -> Great tip, thanks, the old IBM 716 Line Printer was *full* -> of that; had I known I could stick a pack of Viceroys in -> there to cure it, I might not have dismantled it... -> -> -dq -> From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 10 23:54:47 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Moth balls work too but you have to be careful holding the moths down while > you get their balls. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Peace... Sridhar From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 10 23:37:08 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <20011210225712.GA8356@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: It might be the odor from the tobacco too - my Akita hates the smell of raw tobacco, even if it's a bale of tobacco while we're in the process of stripping the leaves from the plants prior to baling for market - she won't even stay in the barn tht we strip the leaves in as it irritates her smell senses so bad. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> On Behalf Of Alexander Schreiber -> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 4:57 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Smoking around computers -> -> -> On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 03:38:49PM -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: -> > > I have noticed -> > > that machines with either residue (pot or cigs) don't tend to -> > > have mice live -> > > in them when sotred - I tried this by putting a bag of -> > > tobacco (cloth bag) -> > > inside and purposely left a filler plate off - no mice. The -> > > machine without -> > > had all sorts of acorn shells, poop, nesting materials, etc though. -> > -> > Great tip, thanks, the old IBM 716 Line Printer was *full* -> > of that; had I known I could stick a pack of Viceroys in -> > there to cure it, I might not have dismantled it... -> -> Seems like the mice "know" that nicotine is a strong toxin. -> -> Regards, -> Alex. -> -- -> q: If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would -> you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor? -> a: I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word. -> -- Harald Koenig asking -> Donald E. Knuth -> From chobbs at socal.rr.com Mon Dec 10 23:40:55 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <15381.607.234109.44847@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C159C67.D4BA0C5F@socal.rr.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 9, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! > > > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) > > It makes them STINK! > > Actually either one makes them stink! ;) > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a dog/cat owner? From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Dec 10 23:48:14 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A9A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <000f01c1819c$28687460$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C159E1E.E9CBC198@verizon.net> Dick, You've got plenty of other nasty stuff in the air in machine shops too. Smoking cutting oils, mist coolant drift, etc. One way to keep the gunk from being drawn through the drives is to leave the cover off the case. With an extra fan inside blowing across the boards, keeps everything cool enough. Ian Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a > convert, as they say ... I don't know about truly Classic (pre-Apple/pre-CP/M) > hardware in this context, but from my experience with current hardware, i.e. > PC's with a fan at the back of the PSU that exhausts air that's drawn in through > the front-loading peripherals, I'd make the following comment. > > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > accumulation of dirt on the optic. In those few cases where (a) I knew the user > to be a frequent smoker, and (b) where I could smell the smoke on the innards of > the drive, I normally found that I couldn't clean the optic with anything I > dared put near the quite soluble plastics used in the drive and specifically in > the laser pickup. > > Likewise, I often have seen and smelled what was obviously tabacco smoke residue > on floppy disk innards. Those were easily cleaned, with the exception of the > heads, which in the cases where they were visibly stained (and it's not easy to > look at the heads, but, once they're visible, the damage is easy to see) with > what appeared to be smoke residue, and that generally has rendered the drives > unreliable. The environment in which I most frequently encountered this problem > was a machine shop where things were none too clean anyway, but the mousepad > showed plenty of evidence of a cigarette being held 2" in front of the end of > the box where the CDROM and FDD resided. It was no wonder the CDROM and FDD > smelled like a very dirty ashtray. > > This is largely the product of the stupid, Stupid, STUPID practice of putting > the fan in the PSU such that it exhausts the system in the way in which it does. > I routinely turn the fan around, and, in fact, on at least two of my boxes, have > put a second fan outside the PSU, with a filter between the two. This has quite > remarkably reduced the accumulation of dirt in the PSU as in the rest of the > box. It does make for a bit more noise, as the two fans tend to "beat" due to > the difference in speed. I once made a crude effort to measure the temperature > effect of doing this, and found the results favorable, since the reduced > presence of dirt meant freer airflow against the surfaces of the IC's that > required cooling in the box. I like to believe the conclusion I drew was > correct, but it was what I expected to find, so take it for what it's worth. > > Tobacco smoke is VERY sticky and VERY pervasive, and should be kept out of > computer hardware, even if only because it's so nasty and hard to remove. This > can be accomplished, if you don't want to turn around your PSU fan, by taping a > piece of paper towel to the front of your hardware so it requires the air to > flow THROUGH the paper towel, rather than going, unimpeded, through your > front-loading peripherals. That's probably adequate. Some cases once had a > sliding cover that protected these peripherals from the hazard of smoke and > other airborne pollutants. The air will still get into your computer, since its > box isn't air-tight, but at least it won't flow through the devices that would > be damaged most by it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas Quebbeman" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:40 AM > Subject: RE: Smoking around computers > > > > > From: Tony Duell > > > > > > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! > > > > > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > > > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > > > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) > > > > > > OTOH, audio gear seems to be very susceptible to my smoke, and I have to > > > clean all the switches and pots every three months or so. > > > > The early CDC disk drives (like many others I'm sure) has so > > much room between platters you could stick your hand in there, > > and enough room between the flying heads and the platter that > > neither smoke nor dust was a problem. One CDC engineer remarked > > to me about how they usually be smoking a cigarette while they > > were *polishing* the platters (yes, I know about the stiction > > cure joke, Lemon Pledge and all that). Which reminds me of an > > MPEG that Elsa included with the Winner3000 drivers... you > > watch this video, you'll think it's cigarettes that they're > > selling... > > > > -dq > > > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Dec 10 23:49:39 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: Message-ID: <3C159E73.90E4216E@verizon.net> > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. you're somewhere around Berkley, right? "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a > > convert, as they say ... > > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > > D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. From jss at subatomix.com Mon Dec 10 23:49:57 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011210234727.L69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Does anyone know where I might find prints for a PDP-11/70? The only thing I've ever found was at http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/ but the PDP-11/70 printset there is an early version with a KB11-B CPU. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 10 23:50:45 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Question about older keyboards. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > > > > I have an old keyboard with those soldered on keycap assemblies. One of the > key mechanisms broke off and now I'm receiving random characters on the It is not altogether clear to me whether the entire key mechanism is missing (broken off or unsoldered from the board) or whether it is only the key cap. If the latter, there is a good chance that the key cap acted as a retainer for the retract spring that keeps the switch from closing with out finger pressure. If this is the case, you might use a straight pin or equivalent to make sure that the plunger part of the mechanism is help in the retracted position. Then power up, and note the results. If it is the `totally gone' problem, I'd harken to Tony's remarks! - don > screen. The missing key is the #3 key. Could the fact that this mechanism is > missing cause this kind of problem, or would the computer see that missing > key as un-pressed but otherwise no problem. Some other part of the keyboard > my be broken but I'm trying to narrow down where to begin trouble shooting. > When I turn the computer on, it sort of runs amuck as though I were pressing > a bunch of random keys but then quiets down after start up but refuses to > let me type anything. Plus, on the screen are 10 to 20 mixed letters and > numbers on the line were I am supposed to enter a command -load, save, run, > etc. > > E. > > From jss at subatomix.com Mon Dec 10 23:55:31 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: <15380.64853.294164.407701@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011210235400.U69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 10, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > > He is most likely speaking of the SunRescue list. > > I think Bill no longer considers it really Sun-specific, Linc.. I tried it for a few hours, but found the message load to be too much for my tastes. Think about getting a classiccmp day every *hour*. Or maybe that was the geeks list. I don't remember. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 00:07:08 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <20011210234727.L69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > Does anyone know where I might find prints for a PDP-11/70? > > The only thing I've ever found was at > > http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/ > > but the PDP-11/70 printset there is an early version with a KB11-B CPU. Actually, the earlier the better. I want to do it *old* but *fast*. Peace... Sridhar From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 11 00:10:10 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:42 2005 Subject: A hypothetical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011211000521.R69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > University of Texas surplus auctions were a good place to find old > gear up till Texas passed a bill regarding the sale of used computer > equipment from government agencies. Now they send all the old computer > gear to the prison system. Hm. I got a *bunch* of classiccmp stuff from an University of Texas auction earlier this spring. Maybe the prisons did not want the stuff. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dittman at dittman.net Tue Dec 11 00:10:01 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <3C159C67.D4BA0C5F@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Dec 10, 2001 09:40:55 PM Message-ID: <200112110610.fBB6A1E23193@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > On December 9, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! > > > > > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > > > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > > > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) > > > > It makes them STINK! > > > > Actually either one makes them stink! ;) > > > > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a > dog/cat owner? All the time (we have several cats). I've never had any cat hair in my systems, since I don't allow the cats in the computer room (except for my favorite cat, who likes to sleep in his basket in the corner or on the back of my chair while I'm in there). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 9 22:41:18 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <15381.607.234109.44847@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C159C67.D4BA0C5F@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <3C143CEE.AC840F9@jetnet.ab.ca> charles hobbs wrote: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On December 9, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! > > > > > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > > > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > > > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) > > > > It makes them STINK! > > > > Actually either one makes them stink! ;) > > > > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a > dog/cat owner? Yes they to tend to collect the fur... ( Shakes out keyboard ). But still better than smoke! Keeping the Magic Smoke in the Computer helps too. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 11 00:28:33 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: A hypothetical In-Reply-To: <20011211000521.R69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > University of Texas surplus auctions were a good place to find old > > gear up till Texas passed a bill regarding the sale of used computer > > equipment from government agencies. Now they send all the old computer > > gear to the prison system. > > Hm. I got a *bunch* of classiccmp stuff from an University of Texas > auction earlier this spring. Maybe the prisons did not want the stuff. Which auction? The Houston surplus people interpret the bill's text as meaning *all* computer stuff, instead of just stuff that is worth resale. They send everything from a goldfish bowl Mac or Apple II to an AS-400 IBM mainframe to the prisons. The bill is written quite vague too, I'll look and see if I can find the link for it that I had. -Toth From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 11 00:29:14 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: A hypothetical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011211001741.F69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Let's say a DEC PDP-1 comes up for auction. The economy is good and > times are stable. > > What would you be willing to pay for a DEC PDP-1? I cannot comprehend a limit; the concept seems alien. Simply put, I'd pay every last cent I could pay. Unfortunately, someone else would inevitably be able to pay more. Were this forum Slashdot, this comment would be modded "-1, Redundant". -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 11 00:31:19 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <15381.2843.234370.190243@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011211002924.F69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> So... when I start disassembling the 11/44 I have in storage in order to transport it to its new home, need I fear it? Or should the caps have negligible charge after half a year in storage? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From leec at slip.net Tue Dec 11 00:42:40 2001 From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Happy DEC-10 Day! In-Reply-To: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F37@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: Personal preference but I'll wait 10 more days before celebrating. DECSystem 20(50) operator and user at UTArlington 1976-79. Lee Courtney Engineering Manager Phone: (408) 328-9238 MontaVista Software, Inc. Fax: (408) 328-9204 1237 E. Arques Web: www.hardhatlinux.com Sunnyvale, CA 94087 Email: lcourtney@mvista.com Check out the embedded Linux experts at http://www.hardhatlinux.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Corda Albert J DLVA > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 12:03 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'; rescue@sunhelp.org > Subject: Happy DEC-10 Day! > > > > Happy DEC-10 Day to all that remember > the venerable olde beaste! > > Some of my happiest memories of college > (WPI) involved hacking on the poor thing > back in `73-`77... > > -al- > -acorda@1bigred.com > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 11 00:59:33 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <20011211002924.F69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > So... when I start disassembling the 11/44 I have in storage in order to > transport it to its new home, need I fear it? Or should the caps have > negligible charge after half a year in storage? I'm not familiar with PDP gear, but if the outputs are just 5-24vdc, I wouldn't worry too much. I might still check them with a volt meter, just to make sure. For any high voltage outputs, 100V+, I would put a jumper clip lead across them if they have large filter caps, and they are not connected to anything that could draw them down. Large hv caps have been known to build up a charge on their own, given enough time. I would think that Digital would have put bleeder resistors across any such caps and outputs, but you never know... If ya do jumper any outputs, make sure you put a tag on the equipment as a reminder of the jumpers...you don't want to fry anything when it gets powered up ;) -Toth From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 01:22:24 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: Re: Rescue list? (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <15380.64853.294164.407701@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011210235400.U69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15381.46128.14235.404305@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 10, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I tried it for a few hours, but found the message load to be too much for > my tastes. Think about getting a classiccmp day every *hour*. Or maybe > that was the geeks list. I don't remember. It certainly spikes that high, but it's not usually that bad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From fernande at internet1.net Tue Dec 11 01:20:49 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Rescue list? References: <20011210235400.U69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3C15B3D1.CC328FFF@internet1.net> Maybe that was Geeks. I'm not sure what the traffic on Geeks is, but Rescue hasn't been that busy lately. When Classiccmp went down this past week, my email count was radically lower. You may have been subscribed during working hours too..... that is the highest traffic time by my observations. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On December 10, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > > > > He is most likely speaking of the SunRescue list. > > > > I think Bill no longer considers it really Sun-specific, Linc.. > > I tried it for a few hours, but found the message load to be too much for > my tastes. Think about getting a classiccmp day every *hour*. Or maybe > that was the geeks list. I don't remember. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From foo at siconic.com Tue Dec 11 01:22:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <20011211043429.VKZF9714.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > > You got it from Sellam, right? ;>) I don't smoke or eat weed around my computers. Chips occasionally, but that's about it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 11 01:46:57 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: A hypothetical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011211013821.X70160-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > University of Texas surplus auctions were a good place to find old > > > gear up till Texas passed a bill regarding the sale of used computer > > > equipment from government agencies. Now they send all the old computer > > > gear to the prison system. > > > > Hm. I got a *bunch* of classiccmp stuff from an University of Texas > > auction earlier this spring. Maybe the prisons did not want the stuff. > > Which auction? The auction company was Swico Auctions (http://www.swicoauctions.com/), and the location was the "J. J. Pickle Research Campus" in Austin. They look to have just put a similar auction up on their site, slated for 01/23/2002. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 11 01:53:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011211014937.J70160-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > So... when I start disassembling the 11/44 I have in storage in order to > > transport it to its new home, need I fear it? Or should the caps have > > negligible charge after half a year in storage? > > I'm not familiar with PDP gear [...] I mean those particular 400V I-will-die-if-I-touch-these parts that were just (re)discussed. :-) I want to know for *sure* before I start taking that box apart! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Dec 11 01:52:08 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: VAX 6400 booting saga: how to transfer binaries to VMS with k ermit? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662AB@exc-reo1> > > %STDRV-I-STARTUP, OpenVMS startup begun at 10-DEC-2001 22:56:23.89 > %SYSGEN-E-SYSVERDIF, system version mismatch - reassemble and > relink driver > -SYSGEN-I-DRIVENAM, driver name is SIDRIVER > %SYSGEN-E-SYSVERDIF, system version mismatch - reassemble and > relink driver > -SYSGEN-I-DRIVENAM, driver name is SIDRIVER > > this driver version mismatch prevents me from doing a SYSGEN > etc. Where can I turn off dependency to this driver? That's the driver for the DMB32. To hide it from SYSGEN it just needs to be renamed: $ RENAME SYS$COMMON:[SYS$LDR]SIDRIVER.EXE SYS$COMMON:[SYS$LDR]SIDRIVER.OLD But just in case, it might be worth checking that you don't have more than one version lying around: $ DIR SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:SIDRIVER.EXE Normally I would suggest purging down if multiple files are kicking around, but since this system is all you have, I'd go with renaming all of them and keeping the version numbers the same i.e. $ RENAME SYS$COMMON:[SYS$LDR]SIDRIVER.EXE;33 SYS$COMMON:[SYS$LDR]SIDRIVER.OLD;33 or whatever. The other WAN device drivers you won't care about are SJDRIVER, SLDRIVER, SFDRIVER, SEDRIVER, ZTDRIVER and ZWDRIVER ... actually I'm sure there are more, I've just mislaid my list! If SIDRIVER is out of date I guess that the rest will be too. However, I assume that SIDRIVER is getting dragged in because SYSGEN found a DMB32? Antonio From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 11 02:06:05 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Texas bill rel data processing equipment (was: Re: A hypothetical) In-Reply-To: <20011211013821.X70160-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > > > University of Texas surplus auctions were a good place to find old > > > > gear up till Texas passed a bill regarding the sale of used computer > > > > equipment from government agencies. Now they send all the old computer > > > > gear to the prison system. > > > > > > Hm. I got a *bunch* of classiccmp stuff from an University of Texas > > > auction earlier this spring. Maybe the prisons did not want the stuff. > > > > Which auction? > > The auction company was Swico Auctions (http://www.swicoauctions.com/), > and the location was the "J. J. Pickle Research Campus" in Austin. They > look to have just put a similar auction up on their site, slated for > 01/23/2002. Heres the info on the bill I mentioned: Bill: SB 1105 Legislative Session: 76(R) Enrolled 06/18/1999 E Effective on 9/1/99 Relating to repair and resale of certain data processing equipment. http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/db2www/tlo/billhist/billhist.d2w/report?LEG=76&SESS=R&CHAMBER=S&BILLTYPE=B&BILLSUFFIX=01105 -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 11 02:19:54 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <20011211014937.J70160-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > > So... when I start disassembling the 11/44 I have in storage in order to > > > transport it to its new home, need I fear it? Or should the caps have > > > negligible charge after half a year in storage? > > > > I'm not familiar with PDP gear [...] > > I mean those particular 400V I-will-die-if-I-touch-these parts that were > just (re)discussed. :-) I want to know for *sure* before I start taking > that box apart! Well, for that kind of voltage, I would certainly check a cap with a volt meter before I would touch its leads. I would probably keep those caps shorted with a jumper clip lead while working on a disconnected power supply or if connections to those caps would be exposed when breaking the unit down for transport. -Toth From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Dec 11 02:40:29 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: <20011210235400.U69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <15380.64853.294164.407701@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011210235400.U69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20011211024029.D25133@mrbill.net> On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 11:55:31PM -0600, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I tried it for a few hours, but found the message load to be too much for > my tastes. Think about getting a classiccmp day every *hour*. Or maybe > that was the geeks list. I don't remember. Actually, classiccmp generates about 2x-3x the traffic of rescue or geeks, except on a really busy day. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 11 03:11:46 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: VAX 8650 want a good home ... In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706629A@exc-reo1> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > Well, if you tell us what you're looking for, we might just > > find it. > > Docs & prints would be nice :-) That is always nice, yes. :-) I do have some FS documentation, but no prints... > Must be one of the few major machines > for which virtually nothing seems to > be available on the net! It's pretty old, so I guess the problem lies partially with the fact that documentation was lost somewhat before the web became common, and documentation is mostly in paper form. Doubt DEC made that much accessible in electronic form. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From vcf at vintage.org Tue Dec 11 03:52:35 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Anyone want a 386/33? Message-ID: Here's a guy in Minneapolis with a 386/33 to unload. Please reply directly to him. Reply-to: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:15:04 -0600 From: "Muscatello, Joel" To: 'Vintage Computer Festival' Subject: RE: Any need for a 386 computer? Hello. Thanks for your reply. I am located in Minneapolis, MN. I would appreciate any help you could give me in finding a way to get rid of the machine. :-) Joel -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Dec 10 19:44:42 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: References: <200112102304.PAA09126@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Just busting your chops. There's nothing wrong with smoking something >that Mother Nature put on Earth. Shame on those that think otherwise. Nuts to that, smoking tobacco will kill you. From Diff at Mac.com Tue Dec 11 09:43:03 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: OT: Smoking References: <200112102304.PAA09126@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <00c001c1825a$85ca9c00$6501a8c0@laboffice> Yeah, Does it bother you that much if someone else is smoking though? In all honesty, IMHO people should be allowed to smoke, ingest, or shoot up with whatever they feel like, as long as they are not harming others. Sure, the smoke smells horrible, and I dislike being around people who are smoking (this is also due to the second hand smoke issue), but I have no problem with it. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:44 PM Subject: Re: Smoking around computers > >Just busting your chops. There's nothing wrong with smoking something > >that Mother Nature put on Earth. Shame on those that think otherwise. > > Nuts to that, smoking tobacco will kill you. > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 11 10:13:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking In-Reply-To: <00c001c1825a$85ca9c00$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: I feel the same way Zach, even being an ex-smoker but when someone ingests/shoots/snorts/etc a substance that makes them a danger to the general public like it does if a person is stoned or drunk and on the road with me and my family then I tend to feel like personally tying them to a stake in front of a firing squad. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zach Malone -> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:43 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: OT: Smoking -> -> -> Yeah, -> Does it bother you that much if someone else is smoking -> though? In all -> honesty, IMHO people should be allowed to smoke, ingest, or shoot up with -> whatever they feel like, as long as they are not harming others. -> Sure, the -> smoke smells horrible, and I dislike being around people who are smoking -> (this is also due to the second hand smoke issue), but I have no problem -> with it. -> Zach -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Mike Ford" -> To: -> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:44 PM -> Subject: Re: Smoking around computers -> -> -> > >Just busting your chops. There's nothing wrong with smoking something -> > >that Mother Nature put on Earth. Shame on those that think otherwise. -> > -> > Nuts to that, smoking tobacco will kill you. -> > -> > -> -> From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 12:18:04 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: OT: Smoking In-Reply-To: OT: Smoking (Zach Malone) References: <200112102304.PAA09126@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <00c001c1825a$85ca9c00$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <15382.19932.815292.970996@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Zach Malone wrote: > Does it bother you that much if someone else is smoking though? In all > honesty, IMHO people should be allowed to smoke, ingest, or shoot up with > whatever they feel like, as long as they are not harming others. Sure, the > smoke smells horrible, and I dislike being around people who are smoking > (this is also due to the second hand smoke issue), but I have no problem > with it. I can effectively "tune it out" and ignore it when I'm around it, which I consider myself lucky to be able to to...but I don't like when people I care about are smoking, because I know people who have been killed by it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 11 10:08:55 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So will anything else, to include breathing air (clean or dirty) - seems anything we do/eat/intake/consume, or not consuming certain things, eventually causes death - essentially a long slow oxidation of a carbon based entity. My parents passed in their mid 60's, one from smoking related cancer (Mom smoked 1 pack a week from 20 to 55) but Dad died from a genius OR tech that allowed a gauze sponge to remain in the chest cavity after surgery for an anurism - he smoked 2 packs a day from 11 (yup that young) till he went into the hospital for the surgery. He also had a high stress job as a Chicago cop for over 30 yrs in all of the worst areas. Go figure on how light smoking did my mom in but my dad never had any smoking related illness/ailments ever. His autopsy showed that he smoked but yet there were no signs of cancer or serious damage to his heart or lungs. Hmmmm....seems everyone has different tolerances to most anything. I had an aunt die 8 yrs ago - never smoked in her life and always lived in a smokeless home. She died of lung cancer after 5 yrs of suffering with it and the chemo attempts to get rid of it. She was 40 when she died. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford -> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:45 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Smoking around computers -> -> -> >Just busting your chops. There's nothing wrong with smoking something -> >that Mother Nature put on Earth. Shame on those that think otherwise. -> -> Nuts to that, smoking tobacco will kill you. -> -> -> From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 06:14:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > > > > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > > > > > > > > I understand they're high in protein. Maybe this person ate them over > > > > their keyboard like others eat snacks? :) > > > > > > If they weren't eating snacks before they ate the marijuana seeds, they > > > certainly were afterwards. :-P > > > > Sounds like this comes from someone who knows? :) > > I'm less than two years away from my MD -- of course I know! ;-) Great... another reason to fear doctors! ;) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 06:28:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a > > > convert, as they say ... > > > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > > > > D'ya mean that retractable ashtray holder? > > > Gee ... I thought that was a cup holder ... Just wondering... do you drive a Volvo? ;) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 06:30:10 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Moth balls work too but you have to be careful holding the > moths down while you get their balls. Gosh, Russ, hadn't heard that one since I was teaching digital at RETS! ;) From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 11 10:08:57 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Yeah I know, but GI's have a regular falir for bastardizing about anything they hear/see. I used to come up with all sorts of "cracks" when I was a military instructor (course instructor, not drill instructor) at Chanute in IL until it closed in 93. Heard of RETS in L'ville too, seems there's a rivalry between students that go to ITT Tech and RETS on who picked the right school. I worked with all sorts of them at Jabil Services in L'ville both times I've been out there. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 6:30 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Smoking around computers -> -> -> > Moth balls work too but you have to be careful holding the -> > moths down while you get their balls. -> -> Gosh, Russ, hadn't heard that one -> since I was teaching digital at RETS! -> -> ;) -> From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Dec 11 07:24:43 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <3C143CEE.AC840F9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <15381.607.234109.44847@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C159C67.D4BA0C5F@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011211082443.00ff7e4c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:41 PM 12/9/01 -0700, Ben Franchuk wrote: >> Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a >> dog/cat owner? > Yes they to tend to collect the fur... ( Shakes out keyboard ). >But still better than smoke! Keeping the Magic Smoke in the Computer >helps too. One of the worst odors I've experienced was created when lots of cat hair were toasted inside the power supply of a friend's computer. The hairs finally got the fan stuck and temperature went up very quickly. Argghhh.. I said to myself, "that's no magic smoke!" . carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 11 10:13:36 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <3C159E1E.E9CBC198@verizon.net> Message-ID: Oh heck yeah - I do industrial service on printers and PC's and along with the stuff you mention here I have a customer with a 5224 printer out on the production floor of a wood venier plant (very fine dust collects to everything) and one in a paper cutting room, etc. I don't go onsite anymore to these sites in Dockers and shirt/tie - it's strictly jeans and flannel shirt anymore. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ian Koller -> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:48 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org; Richard Erlacher -> Subject: Re: Smoking around computers -> -> -> -> -> Dick, -> -> You've got plenty of other nasty stuff in the air in -> machine shops too. Smoking cutting oils, mist coolant -> drift, etc. One way to keep the gunk from being drawn -> through the drives is to leave the cover off the case. -> With an extra fan inside blowing across the boards, -> keeps everything cool enough. -> -> -> Ian -> -> -> Richard Erlacher wrote: -> > -> > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no -> Catholic like a -> > convert, as they say ... I don't know about truly Classic -> (pre-Apple/pre-CP/M) -> > hardware in this context, but from my experience with current -> hardware, i.e. -> > PC's with a fan at the back of the PSU that exhausts air -> that's drawn in through -> > the front-loading peripherals, I'd make the following comment. -> > -> > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from -> > accumulation of dirt on the optic. In those few cases where -> (a) I knew the user -> > to be a frequent smoker, and (b) where I could smell the smoke -> on the innards of -> > the drive, I normally found that I couldn't clean the optic -> with anything I -> > dared put near the quite soluble plastics used in the drive -> and specifically in -> > the laser pickup. -> > -> > Likewise, I often have seen and smelled what was obviously -> tabacco smoke residue -> > on floppy disk innards. Those were easily cleaned, with the -> exception of the -> > heads, which in the cases where they were visibly stained (and -> it's not easy to -> > look at the heads, but, once they're visible, the damage is -> easy to see) with -> > what appeared to be smoke residue, and that generally has -> rendered the drives -> > unreliable. The environment in which I most frequently -> encountered this problem -> > was a machine shop where things were none too clean anyway, -> but the mousepad -> > showed plenty of evidence of a cigarette being held 2" in -> front of the end of -> > the box where the CDROM and FDD resided. It was no wonder the -> CDROM and FDD -> > smelled like a very dirty ashtray. -> > -> > This is largely the product of the stupid, Stupid, STUPID -> practice of putting -> > the fan in the PSU such that it exhausts the system in the way -> in which it does. -> > I routinely turn the fan around, and, in fact, on at least two -> of my boxes, have -> > put a second fan outside the PSU, with a filter between the -> two. This has quite -> > remarkably reduced the accumulation of dirt in the PSU as in -> the rest of the -> > box. It does make for a bit more noise, as the two fans tend -> to "beat" due to -> > the difference in speed. I once made a crude effort to -> measure the temperature -> > effect of doing this, and found the results favorable, since -> the reduced -> > presence of dirt meant freer airflow against the surfaces of -> the IC's that -> > required cooling in the box. I like to believe the conclusion -> I drew was -> > correct, but it was what I expected to find, so take it for -> what it's worth. -> > -> > Tobacco smoke is VERY sticky and VERY pervasive, and should be -> kept out of -> > computer hardware, even if only because it's so nasty and hard -> to remove. This -> > can be accomplished, if you don't want to turn around your PSU -> fan, by taping a -> > piece of paper towel to the front of your hardware so it -> requires the air to -> > flow THROUGH the paper towel, rather than going, unimpeded, -> through your -> > front-loading peripherals. That's probably adequate. Some -> cases once had a -> > sliding cover that protected these peripherals from the hazard -> of smoke and -> > other airborne pollutants. The air will still get into your -> computer, since its -> > box isn't air-tight, but at least it won't flow through the -> devices that would -> > be damaged most by it. -> > -> > ----- Original Message ----- -> > From: "Douglas Quebbeman" -> > To: -> > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:40 AM -> > Subject: RE: Smoking around computers -> > -> > > > > From: Tony Duell -> > > > -> > > > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! -> > > > -> > > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts -> for 20 years, and -> > > > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I -> prefer that -> > > > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) -> > > > -> > > > OTOH, audio gear seems to be very susceptible to my smoke, -> and I have to -> > > > clean all the switches and pots every three months or so. -> > > -> > > The early CDC disk drives (like many others I'm sure) has so -> > > much room between platters you could stick your hand in there, -> > > and enough room between the flying heads and the platter that -> > > neither smoke nor dust was a problem. One CDC engineer remarked -> > > to me about how they usually be smoking a cigarette while they -> > > were *polishing* the platters (yes, I know about the stiction -> > > cure joke, Lemon Pledge and all that). Which reminds me of an -> > > MPEG that Elsa included with the Winner3000 drivers... you -> > > watch this video, you'll think it's cigarettes that they're -> > > selling... -> > > -> > > -dq -> > > -> > > -> From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 11 10:36:32 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: charles hobbs [mailto:chobbs@socal.rr.com] > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a > dog/cat owner? I have. Being a cat owner, I find that I need to clean my systems of cat-hair on a regular basis. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Dec 11 09:59:32 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <01Dec11.121300est.119234@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a >> dog/cat owner? > >I have. Being a cat owner, I find that I need to clean my systems of >cat-hair on a regular basis. I've had the displeasure of working on machines used by someone with quite a large number of cats. As if all the cat hair in the carpet wasn't bad enough while crawling down to hook/unhook cables, the hair was also throughout everything from the keyboard and mouse to the CPU. Not just a few strands, but quite a lot of it. Quite nasty... Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 12:37:39 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Smoking around computers (Jeff Hellige) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <01Dec11.121300est.119234@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <15382.21107.774288.382878@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Jeff Hellige wrote: > I've had the displeasure of working on machines used by > someone with quite a large number of cats. As if all the cat hair in > the carpet wasn't bad enough while crawling down to hook/unhook > cables, the hair was also throughout everything from the keyboard and > mouse to the CPU. Not just a few strands, but quite a lot of it. > Quite nasty... Hmm, I have a kitty who spends some time in the computer room...there's one particular machine in there that moves a LOT of air and needs its filters cleaned frequently, but aside from that I've had no issues with kitty fur. And even if that weren't the case...my cat is one of the best friends I've ever had, so if letting her go where she wants means some extra filter cleaning for me, then so be it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 13:49:07 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers and cats, what about... References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <01Dec11.121300est.119234@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3C166333.4F351EF@verizon.net> ROACHES! Two of the people I service computers bring me systems that tend to be roach-laden. My wife forces me to leave the boxes outside overnight before bringing them in for repair. Nothing like roach crap, carcuses in cobwebs and the occasional live critter running in and around the power supply. I litterly have to spray them out with air, and them clean out the insides. Roach-infested computers cost more to fix! ;) Eric Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a > >> dog/cat owner? > > > >I have. Being a cat owner, I find that I need to clean my systems of > >cat-hair on a regular basis. > > I've had the displeasure of working on machines used by > someone with quite a large number of cats. As if all the cat hair in > the carpet wasn't bad enough while crawling down to hook/unhook > cables, the hair was also throughout everything from the keyboard and > mouse to the CPU. Not just a few strands, but quite a lot of it. > Quite nasty... > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Dec 11 12:09:39 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:43 2005 Subject: [OT]Cameron Kaiser... In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: Can you email me please? g. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 11 10:58:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > You got it from Sellam, right? ;>) It was before I ever met Sellam. But all of the machines that I gavehim had dog hair. On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I don't smoke or eat weed around my computers. Chips occasionally, but > that's about it. So THAT's why the purple 1771s are so rare! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 10:58:33 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AC4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Yeah I know, but GI's have a regular falir for bastardizing about anything > they hear/see. I used to come up with all sorts of "cracks" when I was a > military instructor (course instructor, not drill instructor) at Chanute in > IL until it closed in 93. Heard of RETS in L'ville too, seems there's a > rivalry between students that go to ITT Tech and RETS on who picked the > right school. I worked with all sorts of them at Jabil Services in L'ville > both times I've been out there. yeah, RETS students who insist the ITT Tech students picked the right one... and vice-versa. ;) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 11 11:00:56 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <200112110610.fBB6A1E23193@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: > > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a > > dog/cat owner? > All the time (we have several cats). I've never had any cat hair > in my systems, since I don't allow the cats in the computer room > (except for my favorite cat, who likes to sleep in his basket in > the corner or on the back of my chair while I'm in there). Unless they get into territorial marking, they don't stink them up much. But, expect cat and dog hair. In particular, expect cat hair in keyboards; cats take to keyboards like taxi drivers take to beaded seat cushions! From fernande at internet1.net Tue Dec 11 11:36:38 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: Message-ID: <3C164426.A96ED4C8@internet1.net> My cats have always been more intent on distracting me than playing with the computer, or sleep on it. They'll walk on the keyboard while I'm using it, or walk in my line of the monitor, etc. I think what happens with keyboards is that the cat hair settles in it from the air..... cat hair becomes air borne very easily. Since you can't really wipe the hair off from in between the keys.... like you can wipe the hair from the desk, so it just builds up. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Unless they get into territorial marking, they don't stink them up much. > > But, expect cat and dog hair. In particular, expect cat hair in > keyboards; cats take to keyboards like taxi drivers take to beaded seat > cushions! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 11 12:25:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <3C164426.A96ED4C8@internet1.net> Message-ID: > > But, expect cat and dog hair. In particular, expect cat hair in > > keyboards; cats take to keyboards like taxi drivers take to beaded seat > > cushions! On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > My cats have always been more intent on distracting me than playing with > the computer, or sleep on it. They'll walk on the keyboard while I'm > using it, or walk in my line of the monitor, etc. > I think what happens with keyboards is that the cat hair settles in it > from the air..... cat hair becomes air borne very easily. Since you > can't really wipe the hair off from in between the keys.... like you can > wipe the hair from the desk, so it just builds up. I deal with all of the computers for the Berkeley East Bay Humane Society. The resident cats in the office all like to sleep on keyboards. I set them up with keyboard drawers whenever I can get them cheap, or they get donated (hint. HINT!) But training the office staff to shut the drawers when not in use isn't easy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 11:05:39 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A6@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I must say, with having two cats, I've never had a problem... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Christopher Smith [mailto:csmith@amdocs.com] ! Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:37 AM ! To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' ! Subject: RE: Smoking around computers ! ! ! > -----Original Message----- ! > From: charles hobbs [mailto:chobbs@socal.rr.com] ! ! > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a ! > dog/cat owner? ! ! I have. Being a cat owner, I find that I need to clean my systems of ! cat-hair on a regular basis. ! ! Regards, ! ! Chris ! ! ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer ! Amdocs - Champaign, IL ! ! /usr/bin/perl -e ' ! print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ! ' ! ! From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 11:33:25 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673AA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a ! > > dog/cat owner? ! > All the time (we have several cats). I've never had any cat hair ! > in my systems, since I don't allow the cats in the computer room ! > (except for my favorite cat, who likes to sleep in his basket in ! > the corner or on the back of my chair while I'm in there). ! ! Unless they get into territorial marking, they don't stink ! them up much. ! ! But, expect cat and dog hair. In particular, expect cat hair in ! keyboards; cats take to keyboards like taxi drivers take to ! beaded seat ! cushions! This is where a Keyboard tray comes in very handy! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 9 23:11:06 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673AA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3C1443EA.A86A9B3D@jetnet.ab.ca> David Woyciesjes wrote: > This is where a Keyboard tray comes in very handy! Not when they figure they make a great pillow for napping. The still will find a way to be the center of attention. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 12:38:38 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673AB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! David Woyciesjes wrote: ! > This is where a Keyboard tray comes in very handy! ! Not when they figure they make a great pillow for napping. The still ! will find a way to be the center of attention. ! -- ! Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- ! www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html Okay, I meant a keyboard tray that slides under the desk surface, or something like that... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 13:11:38 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673AC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > > But, expect cat and dog hair. In particular, expect cat hair in ! > > keyboards; cats take to keyboards like taxi drivers take ! > > to beaded seat ! > > cushions! ! ! On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: ! > My cats have always been more intent on distracting me than ! > playing with ! > the computer, or sleep on it. They'll walk on the keyboard ! > while I'm ! > using it, or walk in my line of the monitor, etc. ! > I think what happens with keyboards is that the cat hair ! > settles in it ! > from the air..... cat hair becomes air borne very easily. Since you ! > can't really wipe the hair off from in between the keys.... ! > like you can ! > wipe the hair from the desk, so it just builds up. ! ! I deal with all of the computers for the Berkeley East Bay Humane ! Society. The resident cats in the office all like to sleep ! on keyboards. ! ! I set them up with keyboard drawers whenever I can get them ! cheap, or they ! get donated (hint. HINT!) But training the office staff to shut the ! drawers when not in use isn't easy. Hmmm, spring-loaded drawers? Low-stregth springs, of course. ;-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 13:14:55 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673AD@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! Hmm, I have a kitty who spends some time in the computer ! room...there's one particular machine in there that moves a LOT of air ! and needs its filters cleaned frequently, but aside from that I've had ! no issues with kitty fur. ! ! And even if that weren't the case...my cat is one of the ! best friends ! I've ever had, so if letting her go where she wants means some extra ! filter cleaning for me, then so be it! Aww, isn't that so damned cute! :-P --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 13:10:56 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Smoking around computers (David Woyciesjes) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673AD@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <15382.23104.644749.647598@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! Hmm, I have a kitty who spends some time in the computer > ! room...there's one particular machine in there that moves a LOT of air > ! and needs its filters cleaned frequently, but aside from that I've had > ! no issues with kitty fur. > ! > ! And even if that weren't the case...my cat is one of the > ! best friends > ! I've ever had, so if letting her go where she wants means some extra > ! filter cleaning for me, then so be it! > > Aww, isn't that so damned cute! :-P I'm going to uuencode a fart and email it to you! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From foo at siconic.com Tue Dec 11 13:54:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <15382.23104.644749.647598@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm going to uuencode a fart and email it to you! Don't bother: http://www.farts.com/ Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 14:22:52 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Smoking around computers (Sellam Ismail) References: <15382.23104.644749.647598@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15382.27420.725073.255148@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I'm going to uuencode a fart and email it to you! > > Don't bother: > > http://www.farts.com/ fear -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 13:20:17 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673AE@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > ! And even if that weren't the case...my cat is one of the ! > ! best friends ! > ! I've ever had, so if letting her go where she wants means ! > ! some extra ! > ! filter cleaning for me, then so be it! ! > ! > Aww, isn't that so damned cute! :-P ! ! I'm going to uuencode a fart and email it to you! ! ! -Dave That's fine. I've got a cold, and a stuffy node right now... ;-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue Dec 11 13:21:12 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: In a message dated Tue, 11 Dec 2001 2:17:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Woyciesjes writes: > ! Hmm, I have a kitty who spends some time in the computer > ! room...there's one particular machine in there that moves a LOT of air > ! and needs its filters cleaned frequently, but aside from that I've had > ! no issues with kitty fur. > ! > ! And even if that weren't the case...my cat is one of the > ! best friends > ! I've ever had, so if letting her go where she wants means some extra > ! filter cleaning for me, then so be it! > > Aww, isn't that so damned cute! :-P > > --- David A Woyciesjes Hey now.. Ophilia is cute - just ask her and she'll tell ya herself! :-) From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 13:38:46 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <20011210041651.NYMF8530.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <01Dec10.134636est.119223@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3C1660C6.155F34E8@verizon.net> Worse case I saw was a keyboard. An Apple Extended II, IIRC. I never thought it could hold that much ash! I opened it and poured it out. A mound about 2 inches high and 3 inches in diameter. Really sort of gross. It reeked of tobacco as well. Smoking doesn't kill computers, just their users. Eric Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > >I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > >computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) > > It certainly could turn beige cases some nasty yellow colors though > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Dec 11 04:58:22 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: VAX 8650 want a good home ... References: Message-ID: <00c401c18232$c2975d80$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johnny Billquist" 8650 are an ECL machine if I recall correctly, so I hope you have good air conditioning! Cheers Geoff in Oz (Who really must look into getting his 8530 going - soon as I find a console cable for it) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 06:13:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. *I* could enjoy programming in BASIC on an IBM Portable, too, if I was sitting in a storage unit filled with the kind of goodies you've got in *yours*, Sridhar! With all that iron, ya gotta throw a party sometime soon! -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 12:25:33 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: RE: I've discovered a new pleasure. (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15382.20381.618443.478420@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > With all that iron, ya gotta throw a party sometime soon! Nah, Sridhar doesn't know how to party...do you, Sridhar. ;) Perhaps we can give him some party lessons. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 09:25:28 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! On December 10, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: ! > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my ! > storage locker with ! > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer ! > (thanks again, Jeff) ! > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. ! ! Uhhhh ! ! Sridhar, you ok man? ! ! -Dave I dunno, Dave. When he picked up that VaxServer3100 from me yesterday, he did have a funny look on his face, right before he went into the pizza shop... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 12:30:11 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: RE: I've discovered a new pleasure. (David Woyciesjes) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <15382.20659.614514.580021@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my > ! > storage locker with > ! > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer > ! > (thanks again, Jeff) > ! > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > ! > ! Uhhhh > ! > ! Sridhar, you ok man? > > I dunno, Dave. When he picked up that VaxServer3100 from me yesterday, he > did have a funny look on his face, right before he went into the pizza > shop... Before I moved to FL, Sridhar and Brian Hechinger came down to hang out and hack on stuff, and crashed on my couches. Late the next morning, I walk into the living room to find Sridhar just waking up. He sits up, gets what is likely that very same funny look on his face, and says "NAME THY FECES!!" I think the boy needs to eat more beef and less plantlife. All that chlorophyll is getting into his brain. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Dec 11 06:52:26 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Availability of DSP56K chips In-Reply-To: <4e.325aa6e.294669fa@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011211075226.00fe4488@obregon.multi.net.co> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3204 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/24b40bab/attachment.bin From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 13:52:55 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673B0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > ! Dave McGuire wrote... ! > ! And even if that weren't the case...my cat is one of the ! > ! best friends I've ever had, so if letting her go where she ! > ! wants means some extra filter cleaning for me, then so be it! ! > ! > Aww, isn't that so damned cute! :-P ! > ! > --- David A Woyciesjes ! ! Hey now.. Ophilia is cute - just ask her and she'll tell ya ! herself! :-) Wait sec there buddy... Never said cats weren't cute (my lil' Isabelle is the best!) I was just commenting on Dave M. being such a pushover for his kitties... :) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 14:02:48 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Smoking around computers (David Woyciesjes) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673B0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <15382.26216.175149.611748@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! > ! Dave McGuire wrote... > ! > ! And even if that weren't the case...my cat is one of the > ! > ! best friends I've ever had, so if letting her go where she > ! > ! wants means some extra filter cleaning for me, then so be it! > ! > > ! > Aww, isn't that so damned cute! :-P > ! > > ! > --- David A Woyciesjes > ! > ! Hey now.. Ophilia is cute - just ask her and she'll tell ya > ! herself! :-) > > Wait sec there buddy... Never said cats weren't cute (my lil' Isabelle is > the best!) I was just commenting on Dave M. being such a pushover for his > kitties... > :) Yeah, I admit it, she controls me... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 14:34:33 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673B3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> That's funny! [Ctrl][D]... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] ! Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 2:55 PM ! To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' ! Subject: RE: Smoking around computers ! ! ! On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: ! ! > I'm going to uuencode a fart and email it to you! ! ! Don't bother: ! ! http://www.farts.com/ ! ! Sellam Ismail Vintage ! Computer Festival ! -------------------------------------------------------------- ! ---------------- ! International Man of Intrigue and Danger ! http://www.vintage.org ! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 06:54:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: testing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > On 2001.12.10 16:19 Christopher Smith wrote: > > > > > > KA410-A V1.2 > > > > F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1_.. > > > > > > ?DKA0... > > KA410-W V2.3 > > > > F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. > > > > > > ? E 0040 0000.0045 > > ? D 0050 0000.0005 > > ? C 0080 0000.4001 > > ?? 5 0001 0000.0002 > > ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 > > > > >>> b dka2 > > > > > > -DKA2 > > > > >> NetBSD/vax boot [Jul 29 2000 02:31:03] << > > >> Press any key to abort autoboot 0 > > > boot netbsd > > -- > > > **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 **** > 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE > > READY. e NEW LOGIN EW...NOT HW -T / . I U P U I 1080 602A (04) 18:26:37 TTY2 system 1111 Please LOGIN or ATTACH DISCONNECT e NEW LOGIN EW...NOT HW -W / 77/07/06. 18.50.53. INDIANA UNIVERSITY - LEVEL 9. KRONOS 2.1-397/397 USER NUMBER: 1941 INITIALS: DHQ PASSWORD: XXXXX IMPROPER LOGIN, TRY AGAIN. DISCONNECT From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 09:48:43 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: testing Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > > > > KA410-A V1.2 ! > > > > F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1_.. ! > > > ! > > > ?DKA0... ! > > KA410-W V2.3 ! > > ! > > F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. ! > > ! > > ! > > ? E 0040 0000.0045 ! > > ? D 0050 0000.0005 ! > > ? C 0080 0000.4001 ! > > ?? 5 0001 0000.0002 ! > > ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 ! > > ! > > >>> b dka2 ! > > ! > > ! > > -DKA2 ! > > ! > > >> NetBSD/vax boot [Jul 29 2000 02:31:03] << ! > > >> Press any key to abort autoboot 0 ! > > > boot netbsd ! > > -- ! > ! > ! > **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 **** ! > 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE ! > ! > READY. Staring Windows 98 ... C:\> @ ECHO OFF Windows Protetion Fault... You didn't pay your fees. Please let the big ape-guys in the front door to collect. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Dec 11 10:39:35 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: testing References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <005a01c18262$b46c8020$030101ac@boll.casema.net> F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. ? E 0040 0000.0045 ? D 0050 0000.0005 ? C 0080 0000.4001 ?? 5 0001 0000.0002 ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 > b dka2 -DKA2 bootstrap ..... Deep Thought v31.45 And the ANSWER is ............................ .............................................................. .............................................................. .............................................................. .............................................................. .............................................................. .............................................................. .............................................................. .............................................................. 42 ! (no need for further testsing!) Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------- From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 11:40:00 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: testing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AC6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5?..4_..3_..2_..1?.. > > ? E 0040 0000.0045 > ? D 0050 0000.0005 > ? C 0080 0000.4001 > ?? 5 0001 0000.0002 > ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 > > > b dka2 > > -DKA2 > > bootstrap ..... Deep Thought v31.45 > > And the ANSWER is ............................ > .............................................................. > .............................................................. > .............................................................. > .............................................................. > .............................................................. > .............................................................. > .............................................................. > .............................................................. > 42 ! Feynman lives! From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 11 13:09:14 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: testing References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AC6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <002201c18277$533fe520$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> 42 ! > Feynman lives! Doug Adams, right? Or is there some link to Ofey I missed? John A. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 14:11:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: testing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225ACF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >> 42 ! > > Feynman lives! > > Doug Adams, right? > Or is there some link to Ofey I missed? I found out about Richard Feynman's propensity to yell out "42" as the answer to anything andf everything from one of Douglas Hofstadter's books; probably not G.E.B., but likely his duet with Daniel Dennet, "Mind's I". It *may*, tho, have been in "Metamagical Themas", the compilation of his columns from SciAm. In a very depressing time, dealing with a very, very depressing subject, Richard Feynman provided me with the greatest sense of glee I can recall. While George Meany (or whomever the shirt was who was heading the Challenger Disaster Panel) was going through the motions, I was carefully watching an otherwise bored Feynman start to play with the sample of rubber from the o-ring seals. I saw him look at his glass of icewater, and before I could form the though "stick it in the ice- water" he was doing it, and then immediately started to check his watch. After a while, he raised his hand or interrupted, can't quite recall which, and declared he knew what had caused the disaster. I'd give up all of Congress for one Richard Feynman. -dq From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Tue Dec 11 08:15:24 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: ABS type glue / was ASR-33 Message-ID: There is a new multi-part bonder called "cyanopoxy" that can even glue nylon and "slippery engineering plastics" such as Delrin. It is, however, quite expensive -- $48.50 w/s&h for a small quantity; see www.mrhobby.com. I learned about it in an article in "Railroad Model Craftsman" magazine. Looks good and might work to glue broken switch paddles, but I haven't used it myself. -----Original Message----- From: Craig Smith [mailto:ip500@home.com] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 2:41 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: ABS type glue / was ASR-33 Check out a sporting goods store that sells whitewater canoes. Most are made from ABS of some sort [Royalite, Royaltex, Oltenar] all come from basic ABS sandwich stock. They should have a really tough glue for mounting tie points and thigh harness to the bottom of the interior. IN my experience .. NOTHING else will bond to the ABS. Tothwolf wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Anyway, the metal on both machines seems to be in good shape, but the > > plastic leaves something to be desired. The ASR is mostly just dirty, > > but there is a crack at the left rear screw position. The KSR is > > cleaner as it was used less, but it was stored improperly in a box and > > dropped or something and the plastic upper case (the gray case, not > > the white/yellow cover over the carriage) is broken into several > > pieces. So does anybody have recommendations as to glue or other > > solutions? Is someone sitting on a big stock of spare upper shells? > > Use a glue specially for ABS plastic. Most so-called plastic and model > glues are for polystyrene and won't bond ABS since they are not strong > enough. Let me know what you find, since I'm also looking for glue to use > on tons of broken ABS cases. I've been told that there is a glue made for > an ABS type of drain pipe. PVC glue won't work either, it tends to damage > ABS plastics. > > -Toth From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Dec 11 08:30:39 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:45 2005 Subject: AltairDOS information Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A021@MAIL10> Hi: I'm preparing for the 2.1 release of the Altair32 Emulator and am finishing up the help files. I have manuals for Microsoft BASIC and CP/M 2.2 but I have nothing on Altair DOS. Does anyone have a copy of this manual either in physical or electronic form that I can have? Thanks. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Dec 11 08:38:13 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: MIPS RISComputer M/120 In-Reply-To: ; from gwynp@artware.qc.ca on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:59:07PM -0500 References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF79@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011211083813.A7770016@uiuc.edu> I think I have a couple QIC tapes with something (maybe risc/os?) on them for this like of machines. if you (or someone else?) are interesed, let me know and I'll look for them... gwynp@artware.qc.ca said: > > On 10-Dec-2001 Christopher Smith wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > > > I have -- in various stages of repair -- three MIPS RISComputers. The > > model is M/120. I'm in need of an operating system (and maybe even > > software :) that will run on these. > RISC/os is what you want. It's a derivative of BSD, iirc. > > > They were given to me without hard drives. Any ideas? > > Any SCSI-1 drive should work. 50 pin headers. > > > One of them has two or three (don't remember) RAM boards, and one has > > five. The third has no RAM, and I wonder whether I could divide the > > boards between them and still have something reasonable. > > The boards are 8 mb each. > > IMHO, with the noise these things make, put all the RAM boards you can > (max 6) into one of them, and use it. Others serving as spare parts. > > -Philip - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/84e16dc4/attachment.bin From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 09:32:46 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! Actually, the earlier the better. I want to do it *old* but *fast*. ! ! Peace... Sridhar Sridhar --- Okay, we know you're missing a missus, but isn't that a little strange? ;) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 10:46:20 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AC2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > ! Actually, the earlier the better. I want to do it *old* but *fast*. > ! > ! Peace... Sridhar > > Sridhar --- > Okay, we know you're missing a missus, but isn't that a little > strange? ;) Dangol'- may, december thing- tellyuhwhat. ;) From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 11:24:43 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A8@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > ! Actually, the earlier the better. I want to do it *old* ! > ! but *fast*. ! > ! ! > ! Peace... Sridhar ! > ! > Sridhar --- ! > Okay, we know you're missing a missus, but isn't that a little ! > strange? ;) ! ! Dangol'- may, december thing- tellyuhwhat. ! ! ;) What? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 11 10:29:31 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Free DEC stuff in Milpitas CA Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF80@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi, I have a friend who may be interested if you're willing to ship some of the stuff. Since you didn't mention shipping, I thought I'd ask. I would be interested in the VMS docsets, myself. Otherwise, unfortunately, I don't know anyone in the area. Thanks, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: bob@jfcl.com [mailto:bob@jfcl.com] > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:57 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Free DEC stuff in Milpitas CA > > > > I have the following mostly (but not all) DEC stuff to give > away FREE. > All you have to do is pick it up in Milpitas CA (next door to > San Jose). > > * A VAXstation-2000. No disks (you'll need to find an > RD5x/3x for it). > No guarantees of condition, either, but then it is free :-) > > * A VAXstation-3100/30. No disks (but you can use almost any > SCSI drive). > No guarantees of condition, either, but then it is free :-) > > * A Sophia Systems SA-2000 8-bit ICE. This is a self > contained CP/M machine > from the early 80s in a "luggable" case something like the > KayPro or Osborne. > Includes SA-DOS boot diskettes but no pods (it boots and > runs just fine with > out them). > > * A DECmate-II RX50 system (no hard disk) WITHOUT the 6120 > CPU chip. System > unit only - no monitor or keyboard. > > * About half a dozen DEC orange binders (empty). > > * A MicroVMS (VMS v4.x) manual set, in orange binders. > > * Most of an OpenVMS v7.x manual set (perfect bound). > > * A padded, sound proof printer enclosure for a 14" dot > matrix printer, > including a fan. > > I only read this list in digest form, and I'm way behind on that, so > please write to me directly if you're interested in anything. > > Bob > From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 11 10:39:31 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: <20011211024029.D25133@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20011211103714.D71156-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 11:55:31PM -0600, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > I tried it for a few hours, but found the message load to be too much for > > my tastes. Think about getting a classiccmp day every *hour*. Or maybe > > that was the geeks list. I don't remember. > > Actually, classiccmp generates about 2x-3x the traffic of rescue or > geeks, except on a really busy day. Well, you *are* the authoritative person for such figures, so I think I'll hop back on. :-) That probably was the geeks list I tried. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 10:56:20 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AC3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Yeah, > Does it bother you that much if someone else is smoking though? In all > honesty, IMHO people should be allowed to smoke, ingest, or shoot up with > whatever they feel like, as long as they are not harming others. Sure, the > smoke smells horrible, and I dislike being around people who are smoking > (this is also due to the second hand smoke issue), but I have no problem > with it. Agreed... but if they blow smoke in my face, I'm likely to have a "milkshake accident" in their direction (that's where someone tells you a funny while you've got a mouth- full of milkshake, and well, you probably get the idea). -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 11:37:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: HP-Compaq Merger: All But Dead? (Was: RE: Smoking) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AC5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I feel the same way Zach, even being an ex-smoker but when someone > ingests/shoots/snorts/etc a substance that makes them a danger to the > general public like it does if a person is stoned or drunk and on the road > with me and my family then I tend to feel like personally tying them to a > stake in front of a firing squad. Agreed. I also feel that way about most proposed corporate mergers. Carly Fiorina is currently tops on the stakeout list... and it would appear that the Packard Foundation has joined with the Hewlett and Packard famlies in opposing the merger. Peter Coffee was talking about it in McNeil-Lehrer last night, and he seems to think the old-time techies who recall HP from their early days, and whom are now enjoying higher positions in many companies, are also actively opposing the merger. The consensus is that the technology what results from the merged firms will run only Windows and use only Intel processors, and that's (wisely) perceived as a negative. When technology abandons diversity, I think I'll abandon technology (unless it's vintage). -dq From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Dec 11 11:49:47 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: apple 11c power supply Message-ID: <92.1eb5f802.2947a13b@aol.com> anyone know what the power supply amps are for the apple 11c i have the pin out and i know it is 15v but how many amps or ma joee From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 11 13:16:07 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: apple 11c power supply References: <92.1eb5f802.2947a13b@aol.com> Message-ID: <004a01c18278$49ac4e80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >anyone know what the power supply amps are for the apple 11c Apple printed "1.2A" (1200mA) on it. John A. From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Dec 11 14:29:35 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: apple 11c power supply In-Reply-To: <92.1eb5f802.2947a13b@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011211152812.00b1e200@mail.wincom.net> At 12:49 PM 12/11/2001 -0500, you wrote: >anyone know what the power supply amps are for the apple 11c >i have the pin out and i know it is 15v but how many amps or ma >joee Output 15 V, 1.2 A, 18 Watts Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario, Canada, N8Y3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 11 13:20:05 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Q: "purple"ish" Intel C80287-3 from '83 with gold legs/top Message-ID: Ok while going through the mass of crap I've collected together and finally gotten losse from my storage trailer, I came across an Intel math coprocessor, with gold legs and cap on the "purplish" grey ceramic. On the pin 1 side you can see a thin gold plate (the chip itself I guess) in the index spot and on the opposite end it has a rectangle filled with epoxy. It also has a gold stripe from the center cap to the #1 pin index mark. Is this worth a crap or am I just disillusioned by the enormous amount that the 8080a went for on eBay a few weeks ago? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/81a5cb6e/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 13:34:10 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Q: "purple"ish" Intel C80287-3 from '83 with gold legs/top In-Reply-To: Q: "purple"ish" Intel C80287-3 from '83 with gold legs/top (Russ Blakeman) References: Message-ID: <15382.24498.14988.692552@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Ok while going through the mass of crap I've collected together and finally > gotten losse from my storage trailer, I came across an Intel math > coprocessor, with gold legs and cap on the "purplish" grey ceramic. On the > pin 1 side you can see a thin gold plate (the chip itself I guess) in the > index spot and on the opposite end it has a rectangle filled with epoxy. It > also has a gold stripe from the center cap to the #1 pin index mark. > > Is this worth a crap or am I just disillusioned by the enormous amount that > the 8080a went for on eBay a few weeks ago? They're all over the place, man. Sorry. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Dec 11 13:50:22 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: "purple"ish" Intel C80287-3 from '83 with gold legs/top References: Message-ID: <00f801c1827d$12357260$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I'd save it a few more years ! Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------ http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Blakeman To: Classic computers message group Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:20 PM Subject: Q: "purple"ish" Intel C80287-3 from '83 with gold legs/top Ok while going through the mass of crap I've collected together and finally gotten losse from my storage trailer, I came across an Intel math coprocessor, with gold legs and cap on the "purplish" grey ceramic. On the pin 1 side you can see a thin gold plate (the chip itself I guess) in the index spot and on the opposite end it has a rectangle filled with epoxy. It also has a gold stripe from the center cap to the #1 pin index mark. Is this worth a crap or am I just disillusioned by the enormous amount that the 8080a went for on eBay a few weeks ago? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/662d761c/attachment.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Dec 11 13:28:17 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Hardrive.sys for HardCard ? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011211142817.007cc510@mailhost.intellistar.net> Anybody know where I can download a copy of "hardrive.sys" for a 105Mb hard card? Joe From red at bears.org Tue Dec 11 13:23:23 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Hardrive.sys for HardCard ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011211142817.007cc510@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Joe wrote: > Anybody know where I can download a copy of "hardrive.sys" for a 105Mb hard > card? If it's a Plus HardCard IIXL you can still get the driver from Quantum's web site. ok r. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Dec 11 15:12:27 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Hardrive.sys for HardCard ? References: <3.0.6.32.20011211142817.007cc510@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3C1676BB.AAFC3C69@ccp.com> Joe wrote: > > Anybody know where I can download a copy of "hardrive.sys" for a 105Mb hard > card? > > Joe I think I have a copy of the software with mine . . . gotta look first. I know I have 5 1/4 media, and there shouold be 3.5 as well. Gary HIldebrand From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 14:35:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > > > > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a > > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. > > > > You got it from Sellam, right? ;>) > > I don't smoke or eat weed around my computers. Chips occasionally, but > that's about it. I've had systems, that when I opened them, the air intake filters oozed with residue and reeked of herb. Peace... Sridhar From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 11 14:40:00 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers and cats, what about... In-Reply-To: <3C166333.4F351EF@verizon.net> Message-ID: I have an old chest freezer in the garage (away from the house) that ALL machines get to sit inside of overnight when they're dropped off, including VCR's, computers, printers (except the inkjet types of course) etc and if/when I do a microwave they are opened quickly with a shopvac (with a throwaway bag inside) running to suck any up and put them where they belong. I bombed my storage trailer when I picked up literally hundreds of various machines, a week after I loaded them all in there and man talk about dead mice and roaches all over! I would have liked to see a few cats too (kidding) but it did the job, combined with the extreme winter they spent the rest of that year before I could start getting them pulled in a few at a time. Of course monitors, pcs, etc have to sit in the warm shop an hour or two before apply power - hell on fuses when 25kv arcs across a monitor CRT that's sweating. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Chomko -> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 1:49 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Smoking around computers and cats, what about... -> -> -> ROACHES! Two of the people I service computers bring me systems -> that tend to be roach-laden. My wife forces me to leave the boxes outside -> -> overnight before bringing them in for repair. -> -> Nothing like roach crap, carcuses in cobwebs and the occasional live -> critter running in and around the power supply. I litterly have to spray -> them -> out with air, and them clean out the insides. Roach-infested computers -> cost more to fix! ;) -> -> Eric -> -> -> Jeff Hellige wrote: -> -> > > > Speaking of which, ever open a machine formerly owned by a -> > >> dog/cat owner? -> > > -> > >I have. Being a cat owner, I find that I need to clean my systems of -> > >cat-hair on a regular basis. -> > -> > I've had the displeasure of working on machines used by -> > someone with quite a large number of cats. As if all the cat hair in -> > the carpet wasn't bad enough while crawling down to hook/unhook -> > cables, the hair was also throughout everything from the keyboard and -> > mouse to the CPU. Not just a few strands, but quite a lot of it. -> > Quite nasty... -> > -> > Jeff -> > -- -> > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> > http://www.cchaven.com -> > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> -> From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 14:45:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Re: Smoking around computers (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: Message-ID: <15382.28782.647555.96956@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I've had systems, that when I opened them, the air intake filters oozed > with residue and reeked of herb. There's gotta be something that can be done with that. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 11 12:47:40 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011211234316.BLLM15232.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > ! > 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE > ! > > ! > READY. > > Staring Windows 98 ... > > C:\> @ ECHO OFF > > > Windows Protetion Fault... > You didn't pay your fees. > Please let the big ape-guys in the front door to collect. > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 Click...fan, HD spins up. Loud Beep beep beep beep beep stridently constinuously. Oh gawd, forgot the ram, click and waits 4 seconds for pc to shut off (hint), scratching metallic noises clink, tink! CLANG. Crunch. Clang, thuds. Scratch scratch.... click.. stuff spins up, BEEEEP bep bep bep!...awww... repeats the process finally... AWARD bios 1009 K7M EPA Athlon 800 Memory counts up 4 times. buzzes, humm... BEEP! rattle tink tink.. Windows 95 starting...scrolling shades disappears beep! (nasty screechhhhh!! Ticking grinding noises and booting time becomes longer then nasty noises stops, boot resumes normally.) Empty desktop appears, Detecting VIA sound system... disappears. BSOD pops up. AAARRROOOOOOOOOO! Another machine: Snap! *BOOONNG!* Loudly. Waits for tube to warm up...finally grey background appears with pointer upper left corner, faint scratching noise from floppy drive then in center blinking ? inside of floppy outline. Thuds, soft churning noises....smiling face then disappears. Black and white of "Welcome to the Macintosh" banner flags up... Churning noise continues... Drops into desktop...click-click, click-click, rattles, churns and churns some more...and stares at things... Finder clock, settings all wrong, aww.. time for new expensive battery and redo the HD spoilt by HPFS+. :-) Cheers, Wizard PS: I had to put in howling part bec at one time I had one machine that howled like mad when HD died instead of screeching noise. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Dec 11 19:10:37 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: testing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225ACF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > I'd give up all of Congress for one Richard Feynman. > I'd give up considerably more than that. "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!" is probably one of the most enjoyable books I've ever read. g. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 13:04:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: from "Boatman on the River of Suck" at Dec 10, 1 08:24:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 439 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/cc8b04f6/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 14:51:34 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Subject: RE: I've discovered a new pleasure. > > > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > > *I* could enjoy programming in BASIC on an IBM Portable, > too, if I was sitting in a storage unit filled with the > kind of goodies you've got in *yours*, Sridhar! Hehehehe. > With all that iron, ya gotta throw a party sometime soon! I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's to VCF East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone else brings machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll be welcome to hook up to me. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 15:10:48 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: RE: I've discovered a new pleasure. (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15382.30296.394239.367892@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's to VCF > East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone else brings > machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll be welcome to hook > up to me. Eh? The G1 isn't 10 years old, is it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 17:58:17 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <15382.30296.394239.367892@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's to VCF > > East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone else brings > > machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll be welcome to hook > > up to me. > > Eh? The G1 isn't 10 years old, is it? It is indeed. Both of mine have manufacture dates in 1991. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 15:03:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <15382.20659.614514.580021@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > Before I moved to FL, Sridhar and Brian Hechinger came down to hang > out and hack on stuff, and crashed on my couches. Late the next > morning, I walk into the living room to find Sridhar just waking up. > He sits up, gets what is likely that very same funny look on his face, > and says "NAME THY FECES!!" Are you going to tell that story to *everybody*? Wait, I think you just did. 8-) > I think the boy needs to eat more beef and less plantlife. All > that chlorophyll is getting into his brain. ;) LOL Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 15:04:47 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <15382.20381.618443.478420@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 11, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > With all that iron, ya gotta throw a party sometime soon! > > Nah, Sridhar doesn't know how to party...do you, Sridhar. ;) > Perhaps we can give him some party lessons. 8-) Remember you're talking to a raver. I party for *days* on end. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 15:13:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: RE: I've discovered a new pleasure. (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <15382.20381.618443.478420@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15382.30471.734274.791708@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > Nah, Sridhar doesn't know how to party...do you, Sridhar. ;) > > Perhaps we can give him some party lessons. 8-) > > Remember you're talking to a raver. I party for *days* on end. 8-) Nah...too much dancing, not enough drinking! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 15:21:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AD6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > With all that iron, ya gotta throw a party sometime soon! > > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's to VCF > East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone else brings > machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll be welcome to hook > up to me. Ok, Russ, to see Sridhar's stuff, we gotta get together and do a Hillbilly VCF 1.0 If we time it right and have it in Owensboro, we could make it a part of the Kentucky Burgoo Festival... ;) From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 18:02:33 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AD6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > With all that iron, ya gotta throw a party sometime soon! > > > > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's to VCF > > East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone else brings > > machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll be welcome to hook > > up to me. > > Ok, Russ, to see Sridhar's stuff, we gotta get together and do a > > Hillbilly VCF 1.0 > > If we time it right and have it in Owensboro, we could > make it a part of the Kentucky Burgoo Festival... > > ;) Why don't you come out to VCFE next year? It'll only be about a half-day's drive. Peace... Sridhar From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 16:06:58 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673B8@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: ! > > Nah, Sridhar doesn't know how to party...do you, Sridhar. ;) ! > > Perhaps we can give him some party lessons. 8-) ! > ! > Remember you're talking to a raver. I party for *days* on end. 8-) ! ! Nah...too much dancing, not enough drinking! ! ! -Dave And a hearty "hear-hear!" to that! Not to mention, he doesn't really look the 'raver' type. Hmmm... ;) Speaking of drinking, Tuesdays (tonight!) are when my APA Pool Team plays. We're in first, with only two more matches to go! Then playoffs for the States, then it's off to Vegas after States! Woo-hoo, hopefully! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 16:34:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AE1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > And a hearty "hear-hear!" to that! Not to mention, he > doesn't really look the 'raver' type. Hmmm... ;) > Speaking of drinking, Tuesdays (tonight!) are when my > APA Pool Team plays. We're in first, with only two more > matches to go! Then playoffs for the States, then it's > off to Vegas after States! Woo-hoo, hopefully! We used to have a drinking night here, but your truly couldn't be bothered by the beer everyone else was having that night and opted for Maker's Mark on an empty stomach... that drove the nail in the Tuesday Night coffin (at our office). And I want to point out: the diminished capacity for judgement begins *before* you had the first drink. Blaming the alcohol is engaging in bad faith... -dq From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Dec 11 17:35:29 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <15382.20659.614514.580021@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 11, 1 01:30:11 pm" Message-ID: <200112112335.PAA08766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Before I moved to FL, Sridhar and Brian Hechinger came down to hang > out and hack on stuff, and crashed on my couches. You mean, these people really exist and aren't figments of sendmail's imagination? :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Wagner's music is better than it sounds. -- Mark Twain --------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 11 18:03:17 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. References: <200112112335.PAA08766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3C169EC5.183FE377@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Before I moved to FL, Sridhar and Brian Hechinger came down to hang > > out and hack on stuff, and crashed on my couches. > > You mean, these people really exist and aren't figments of sendmail's > imagination? :-P > My question -- Have they left yet?? :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 13:23:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: H89 docs/help requested In-Reply-To: <20011211043436.VLAD9714.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Dec 10, 1 11:32:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2483 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/705187bf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 13:13:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Question about older keyboards. In-Reply-To: from "Ernest" at Dec 10, 1 07:49:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/734d41bb/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Tue Dec 11 17:57:04 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Question about older keyboards. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:13:38 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: #OK, the '159 is the open-collector version of the '154. It's a 16 output #decoder/with open collector outputs. I know it well. # #It takes in a 4 bit number, and (in this case) selects one of 16 logical #columns of keys. Presumanly the keyboard is scanned in software and thus #the 4 bit number comes from an output port somewhere. # #> So, if the keyboard seems to be OK, where would I next look for the cause of #> a few random characters being generated on startup? Any tips here will help. Well, if this was a keyboard problem, the 74159 itself could be bad. I just fixed an Exidy Sorcerer keyboard, which is made in this very manner (using a 74L154), where some key combinations did not give the right results. The 74L154 itself had an internal short. But, I think we need more information on the machine. Random characters on startup don't sound like a keyboard problem. In some cases, this could be normal. What happens after startup? Do the keys work? In the Sorcerer, random characters on startup indicate a problem in the video RAM. But again, it is hard to guess a cause for a problem without knowing what hardware we are talking about, and having a much better description of the problem. # #Look the the connections on the keyswitches that do _not_ go to the '159. #Where do they go to? Presumably via some kind of cable to a chip on the #mainboard of whatever machine this is. What's that chip? # #Do you still get random characters if the machine is turned on with the #keyboard totally disconnected? # #It may not even be a keyboard problem. It might be a RAM/ROM/CPU problem #(the machine might not be running the monitor program correctly). # #-tony # Louis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 13:57:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <3C159C67.D4BA0C5F@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Dec 10, 1 09:40:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/5a86dd47/attachment.ksh From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 11 15:59:22 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > And jumping on the workbench, scattering components everywhere was > annother.... I had to hold him hack whenever I had static-sensitive stuff > on the bench (for the device's safety) or whenever I had mains or other > HV stuff on the bench (for Homer's safety). I once powered up an IBM 7013-550 - the old deskside PowerServer - and watched Rascal, my 7-year-old hellbitch, spring out of the box. As near as I could tell, she was sitting on the SCSI adapter when I turned it on. Both she & the RS/6000 were unharmed until I caught her. I think she likes the fan vibes from the older boxen. She'll lay up against the case if she can. By the way, most excellent mailing list. I dunno what took me so long. See ya later, Doc Shipley Austin, Texas From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 11 15:02:04 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dude, did you keep them for later :-) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Boatman on the -> River of Suck -> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 2:35 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Smoking around computers -> -> -> On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: -> -> > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: -> > -> > > > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) -> > > -> > > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a -> > > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. -> > > -> > > You got it from Sellam, right? ;>) -> > -> > I don't smoke or eat weed around my computers. Chips occasionally, but -> > that's about it. -> -> I've had systems, that when I opened them, the air intake filters oozed -> with residue and reeked of herb. -> -> Peace... Sridhar -> -> From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 17:57:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Dude, did you keep them for later :-) No, man. I don't like resin hits. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 15:06:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <15382.23104.644749.647598@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm going to uuencode a fart and email it to you! That's one I haven't heard before. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 15:07:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673AE@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! I'm going to uuencode a fart and email it to you! > > That's fine. I've got a cold, and a stuffy node right now... ;-) With Dave McGuire, it doesn't matter. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 15:09:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:46 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <15382.27420.725073.255148@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 11, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > I'm going to uuencode a fart and email it to you! > > > > Don't bother: > > > > http://www.farts.com/ > > fear Not, "Death?" Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 15:11:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <15382.28782.647555.96956@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > I've had systems, that when I opened them, the air intake filters oozed > > with residue and reeked of herb. > > There's gotta be something that can be done with that. ;) I believe that Jon Singer and I reached a consensus that Alconox and Borax can do something about it. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 15:18:39 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AD5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > I don't smoke or eat weed around my computers. Chips occasionally, but > > that's about it. > > I've had systems, that when I opened them, the air intake filters oozed > with residue and reeked of herb. Did I mention I run a filter recycling service? Please mail your filters to: ';liwrfjuscljhapos8hs NO CARRIER From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Dec 11 16:07:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <15382.21107.774288.382878@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <01Dec11.121300est.119234@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <15382.21107.774288.382878@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >On December 11, Jeff Hellige wrote: >> I've had the displeasure of working on machines used by >> someone with quite a large number of cats. As if all the cat hair in >> the carpet wasn't bad enough while crawling down to hook/unhook >> cables, the hair was also throughout everything from the keyboard and >> mouse to the CPU. Not just a few strands, but quite a lot of it. >> Quite nasty... > > Hmm, I have a kitty who spends some time in the computer >room...there's one particular machine in there that moves a LOT of air >and needs its filters cleaned frequently, but aside from that I've had >no issues with kitty fur. > > And even if that weren't the case...my cat is one of the best friends >I've ever had, so if letting her go where she wants means some extra >filter cleaning for me, then so be it! A single cat isn't much of a problem, but the woman I'm referring to has a dozen or more. Even her office has more than it's share of cat hair, as she's worked in it for about 15 years. That many cats make a bit of a difference! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 11 17:10:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225A9A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <000f01c1819c$28687460$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C159E1E.E9CBC198@verizon.net> Message-ID: <004001c18298$f63087a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> See below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Koller" To: ; "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 10:48 PM Subject: Re: Smoking around computers > > > Dick, > > You've got plenty of other nasty stuff in the air in > machine shops too. Smoking cutting oils, mist coolant > drift, etc. One way to keep the gunk from being drawn > through the drives is to leave the cover off the case. > With an extra fan inside blowing across the boards, > keeps everything cool enough. > I find it much simpler simply to reverse the direction of the PSU fan. It takes less than 10 minutes, and, with a sufficiently porous filter, prevents the accumulation of nasties in the front-loading peripherals. > > Ian > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Bear in mind that I'm a FORMER smoker, and that there's no Catholic like a > > convert, as they say ... I don't know about truly Classic (pre-Apple/pre-CP/M) > > hardware in this context, but from my experience with current hardware, i.e. > > PC's with a fan at the back of the PSU that exhausts air that's drawn in through > > the front-loading peripherals, I'd make the following comment. > > > > I've disassembled a number of CDROM drives that clearly suffered from > > accumulation of dirt on the optic. In those few cases where (a) I knew the user > > to be a frequent smoker, and (b) where I could smell the smoke on the innards of > > the drive, I normally found that I couldn't clean the optic with anything I > > dared put near the quite soluble plastics used in the drive and specifically in > > the laser pickup. > > > > Likewise, I often have seen and smelled what was obviously tabacco smoke residue > > on floppy disk innards. Those were easily cleaned, with the exception of the > > heads, which in the cases where they were visibly stained (and it's not easy to > > look at the heads, but, once they're visible, the damage is easy to see) with > > what appeared to be smoke residue, and that generally has rendered the drives > > unreliable. The environment in which I most frequently encountered this problem > > was a machine shop where things were none too clean anyway, but the mousepad > > showed plenty of evidence of a cigarette being held 2" in front of the end of > > the box where the CDROM and FDD resided. It was no wonder the CDROM and FDD > > smelled like a very dirty ashtray. > > > > This is largely the product of the stupid, Stupid, STUPID practice of putting > > the fan in the PSU such that it exhausts the system in the way in which it does. > > I routinely turn the fan around, and, in fact, on at least two of my boxes, have > > put a second fan outside the PSU, with a filter between the two. This has quite > > remarkably reduced the accumulation of dirt in the PSU as in the rest of the > > box. It does make for a bit more noise, as the two fans tend to "beat" due to > > the difference in speed. I once made a crude effort to measure the temperature > > effect of doing this, and found the results favorable, since the reduced > > presence of dirt meant freer airflow against the surfaces of the IC's that > > required cooling in the box. I like to believe the conclusion I drew was > > correct, but it was what I expected to find, so take it for what it's worth. > > > > Tobacco smoke is VERY sticky and VERY pervasive, and should be kept out of > > computer hardware, even if only because it's so nasty and hard to remove. This > > can be accomplished, if you don't want to turn around your PSU fan, by taping a > > piece of paper towel to the front of your hardware so it requires the air to > > flow THROUGH the paper towel, rather than going, unimpeded, through your > > front-loading peripherals. That's probably adequate. Some cases once had a > > sliding cover that protected these peripherals from the hazard of smoke and > > other airborne pollutants. The air will still get into your computer, since its > > box isn't air-tight, but at least it won't flow through the devices that would > > be damaged most by it. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Douglas Quebbeman" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:40 AM > > Subject: RE: Smoking around computers > > > > > > > From: Tony Duell > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't want anybody smoking near my computers! > > > > > > > > I've been chain-smoking around computers of various sorts for 20 years, and > > > > I've never seen any evidence of smoke-related problems. I prefer that > > > > computers don't smoke around me, however ;>) > > > > > > > > OTOH, audio gear seems to be very susceptible to my smoke, and I have to > > > > clean all the switches and pots every three months or so. > > > > > > The early CDC disk drives (like many others I'm sure) has so > > > much room between platters you could stick your hand in there, > > > and enough room between the flying heads and the platter that > > > neither smoke nor dust was a problem. One CDC engineer remarked > > > to me about how they usually be smoking a cigarette while they > > > were *polishing* the platters (yes, I know about the stiction > > > cure joke, Lemon Pledge and all that). Which reminds me of an > > > MPEG that Elsa included with the Winner3000 drivers... you > > > watch this video, you'll think it's cigarettes that they're > > > selling... > > > > > > -dq > > > > > > > > From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 11 13:07:37 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: H89 docs/help requested In-Reply-To: References: <20011211043436.VLAD9714.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Dec 10, 1 11:32:22 pm Message-ID: <20011212000318.FRID14728.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: H89 docs/help requested > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:23:01 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Snip! > Along the sides there's a litte crack between the top and bottom parts of > the case. You'll see a little metal plate towards the front of this > crack. Put a screwdriver into the notch on this plate and slide it (I > can't remember if it's towards the front or rear of the machine). This > will unlatch the top cover which then swings open towards the back of the > machine. Unplug the fan cable and unhook the cover entirely. These plates is sprung loaded, push it and hold it there while tugging the top to free the barb then carefully do the other side. Then top will be freed, tip it back away from you if you're facing the front end rather like BMW hood way it opens. > If for any reason you want to remove the keyboard, it's held in by 6 > hex-head screws on the bottom, under the keyboard. Hmmm, Yep. Double check all one sided PCBs, too many of them had cracked solder joints and component wires became unbonded from solder invisibly till you wiggle those component. AHA! > -tony Worked my share on Z19's in '90 then school converted to messy zenith DOS machines in 91. Some Z19's tend to float big cloud of magic from it when monitor board under the tube blew. Happened to me once while running it on looping TX/RX test hooked to IBM mainframe spitting whole screenful of one letter, blanks one by one, print out whole screen of next letter on Z19 before putting it back into tested pile. Saw smoke appear and saw resistors glowing like lava. Cheers, Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 14:41:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: <20011211002924.F69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Dec 11, 1 00:31:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 963 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/eaac5729/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 11 14:45:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Dec 11, 1 00:59:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/007ae18f/attachment.ksh From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Dec 11 16:02:10 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: 11/44 power problem... (Oh, not again...) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662AF@exc-reo1> > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >The outputs of this PSU are +/-5V to +/-15V. They're all safe to touch, >although they can supply significant current when the machine is in >operation (I think the main logic supply is 5V, 125A). When I was working on a VAX 6000 once, the combination of +5V @ > 100A and human-appendages-with-nearby-metal (fingers with ring, wrists with metal watchstraps etc.) was quaintly described as an opportunity to lose an appendage and simultaneously cauterize the wound :-) >The main hazard is inside the PSU. There are a couple of _large_ >capacitors that form part of a 400V supply straight from the mains. The >output of this supply is distributed to the PSU boards by barrier-strip >type screw terminals at the top of the boards. This supply can kill you! Stone dead, I should think! All PSUs deserve respect. This one sounds like it deserves more than most :-) Antonio From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue Dec 11 14:53:43 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Shareing ... (Applesoft Programs) Message-ID: <3C167257.9030606@cnonline.net> Hey peoples! I have been spending my time working programs in Applesoft basic. What would be the best way to share these programs with others? I have an apple II c with 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 " floppies. From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Dec 11 14:57:20 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: apple 11c power supply thanks chuck Message-ID: <16d.57ac825.2947cd30@aol.com> thanks for the info i bought an apple 2c at a thrift for 99 cents no adapter. thinking about making one thanks for the info joee From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 14:57:39 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AC2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > ! Actually, the earlier the better. I want to do it *old* but *fast*. > > ! > > ! Peace... Sridhar > > > > Sridhar --- > > Okay, we know you're missing a missus, but isn't that a little > > strange? ;) > > Dangol'- may, december thing- tellyuhwhat. > > ;) Well, the reason I wanted to do it *old* and *fast*... I wanted to do it old because I actually own a first-revision PDP-11/70 which my father bought brand new back in the mid-70's when it first came out before I was born. It's a really really neat machine with gobs of I/O bandwidth. It's fast too. So it made me think what I might be able to do with modern components and still make it compatible with my 11/70. (FYI, my 11/70 is still working and is still original, down to its fuses and fascia). Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 10 01:25:21 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: Message-ID: <3C146361.7949D7B5@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I wanted to do it old because I actually own a first-revision PDP-11/70 > which my father bought brand new back in the mid-70's when it first came > out before I was born. It's a really really neat machine with gobs of I/O > bandwidth. It's fast too. So it made me think what I might be able to do > with modern components and still make it compatible with my 11/70. (FYI, > my 11/70 is still working and is still original, down to its fuses and > fascia). Building my 'prehistoric' CPU, I have discovered I am about 5 years too late to find TTL. 16 x4 RAM and ALU's are very scarce and never produced in the newer families. You may still find stuff in 74Fxx but you still are only about 1/2 the power. I am assuming the 11/70 used 74Sxx. You can do a lot with FPGA's today but I don't expect a full grown PDP-11 will fit in a fpga that is not in a 144 pin TQFP package. Funny how the logic is now 'super large' FPGA's and single gate 'glue' chips. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 15:00:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673A8@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! > ! Actually, the earlier the better. I want to do it *old* > ! > ! but *fast*. > ! > ! > ! > ! Peace... Sridhar > ! > > ! > Sridhar --- > ! > Okay, we know you're missing a missus, but isn't that a little > ! > strange? ;) > ! > ! Dangol'- may, december thing- tellyuhwhat. > ! > ! ;) > > What? You've never seen "King of the Hill"? Peace... Sridhar From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 11 15:09:15 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673B5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > ! > ! Actually, the earlier the better. I want to do it *old* ! > ! > ! but *fast*. ! > ! > ! ! > ! > ! Peace... Sridhar ! > ! > ! > ! > Sridhar --- ! > ! > Okay, we know you're missing a missus, but ! isn't that a little ! > ! > strange? ;) ! > ! ! > ! Dangol'- may, december thing- tellyuhwhat. ! > ! ! > ! ;) ! > ! > What? ! ! You've never seen "King of the Hill"? ! ! Peace... Sridhar Umm, couple times... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 15:10:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673B5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:09:15 -0500 > From: David Woyciesjes > To: 'Boatman on the River of Suck' , > David Woyciesjes > Cc: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" , > 'Douglas Quebbeman' > Subject: RE: Prints for an 11/70 > > ! > ! > ! Actually, the earlier the better. I want to do it *old* > ! > ! > ! but *fast*. > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! > ! Peace... Sridhar > ! > ! > > ! > ! > Sridhar --- > ! > ! > Okay, we know you're missing a missus, but > ! isn't that a little > ! > ! > strange? ;) > ! > ! > ! > ! Dangol'- may, december thing- tellyuhwhat. > ! > ! > ! > ! ;) > ! > > ! > What? > ! > ! You've never seen "King of the Hill"? > ! > ! Peace... Sridhar > > Umm, couple times... It's from that. Peace... Sridhar From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 15:47:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AD8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Dangol'- may, december thing- tellyuhwhat. > > > > ;) > > Well, the reason I wanted to do it *old* and *fast*... > > I wanted to do it old because I actually own a first-revision PDP-11/70 > which my father bought brand new back in the mid-70's when it first came > out before I was born. It's a really really neat machine with gobs of I/O > bandwidth. It's fast too. So it made me think what I might be able to do > with modern components and still make it compatible with my 11/70. (FYI, > my 11/70 is still working and is still original, down to its fuses and > fascia). That is *so* cool, preserving a machine by keeping it in the family! -dq From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 18:05:23 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AD8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Well, the reason I wanted to do it *old* and *fast*... > > > > I wanted to do it old because I actually own a first-revision PDP-11/70 > > which my father bought brand new back in the mid-70's when it first came > > out before I was born. It's a really really neat machine with gobs of I/O > > bandwidth. It's fast too. So it made me think what I might be able to do > > with modern components and still make it compatible with my 11/70. (FYI, > > my 11/70 is still working and is still original, down to its fuses and > > fascia). > > That is *so* cool, preserving a machine by keeping it in the family! Actually, that wasn't the point. The point was that when I was a tiny tot, I started to learn how to program. Soon I was programming more than my dad, so he got himself an IBM AS/400 lab setup to do his lab stuff (which was the primary use for the 11/70... it has a bunch of analog data acquision stuff in it) and just gave me the 11/70 to hack on. If he hadn't given it to me, he might still be using it. Peace... Sridhar From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Dec 11 14:58:26 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: apple 11c power supply Message-ID: <17d.8ea4ed.2947cd72@aol.com> thanks john From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue Dec 11 15:22:38 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? Message-ID: <3C16791E.5000707@cnonline.net> Hi! Is there any way to connect an apple IIC Plus to a "modern" monitor? It has a 15 pin connector that has a strange pin out - and a composit video out on an RCA plug. I currently use an apple monochrome (tilt-y tube) monitor to see 80 col text and a Panasonic monitor to see the color modes. I have to lug to switch them. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 11 17:04:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? References: <3C16791E.5000707@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <003201c18298$3ee4b3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Keep in mind that the IIc uses NTSC monitors. If you have an obsolete video monitor (not a computer monitor, but one from a component video system) that will work fine in either color or monochrome mode. Some older NTSC types don't have the bandwidth to support the 80-column mode, so start by trying an IBM PC Color monitor. You may find that adequate, though small. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 2:22 PM Subject: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? > Hi! > > Is there any way to connect an apple IIC Plus to a "modern" > monitor? > > It has a 15 pin connector that has a strange pin out - and a > composit video out on an RCA plug. > > I currently use an apple monochrome (tilt-y tube) monitor > to see 80 col text and a Panasonic monitor to see the color > modes. I have to lug to switch them. > > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Dec 11 16:12:40 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: overclocking older processors Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662B0@exc-reo1> > Dave McGuire wrote: > > I was just reminded of when I overclocked an F11 chipset on a >PDP-11/23 (KDF11-A) to 18MHz. It seems to me that it might be >possible to overclock the 78032 on a KA630. Anybody ever done that? I've just sent EK-78032-UG, basically the 78032 User Guide over to DFWCUG. You can see the gory details once it arrives and they put it up. In the meantime, from Appendix A, clock period is variable from 25ns to 250ns i.e. 40MHz to 4MHz. It specifically states (somewhere) that the part will *not* work down to DC. The clock should be held in the high and low states for 16ns each, so even with infinitely fast rise and fall you cannot do better than 32ns and stay reliable across all parts and all temperature ranges. Now if you are willing to restrict the temperature range and hope to work on just *most* parts, who knows :-) Tweaking a MicroVAX II won't buy you much. I doubt you could bump the clock by much more than say 20% without something going horribly wrong. And the uVAX II is a fairly well balanced system: the memory cycle is just about right for the CPU (I think it works out that the CPU cycle time matches the memory cycle time - hence no need for cache). So if you up the CPU clock, you need to find some way to speed up the memory otherwise you don't even see your modest 20% gain. Antonio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 10 02:08:31 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: overclocking older processors References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662B0@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <3C146D7F.9F3A6A8F@jetnet.ab.ca> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > Tweaking a MicroVAX II won't buy > you much. I doubt you could bump the > clock by much more than say 20% without > something going horribly wrong. And the > uVAX II is a fairly well balanced system: > the memory cycle is just about right for > the CPU (I think it works out that the CPU > cycle time matches the memory cycle > time - hence no need for cache). Playing around with my 'Prehistoric' cpu, the best speed I can manage is a memory cycle of 333 ns.( 12 Mhz/4 ). It is the I/O chips that slow me down - not main memory. I expect much the same if you try to reto-fit faster main memory. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Dec 11 16:57:25 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: <20011211024029.D25133@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:40:29 CET References: <15380.64853.294164.407701@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011210235400.U69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <20011211024029.D25133@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20011211235725.C68192@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.11 09:40 Bill Bradford wrote: > Actually, classiccmp generates about 2x-3x the traffic of rescue or > geeks, except on a really busy day. Whet "geeks" list??? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Dec 11 17:10:02 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Bootmessages (was: Re: testing) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 13:54:02 CET References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AB6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011212001002.E68192@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.11 13:54 Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > KA410-A V1.2 > > > > > F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1_.. [...] > > **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 **** > > 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE [...] > 77/07/06. 18.50.53. > INDIANA UNIVERSITY - LEVEL 9. KRONOS 2.1-397/397 Hmmm. Once upon a time there was the MAUS-Net in Germany. A modem/ISDN coupled mailbox net. For the fun of it we collected in a newsgroup "Hello World!" programms in as many different programming languages we could get. This leads me to the idea: What about a (web browseable) collection of prom / boot messages of classic machines and OSes? From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 11 17:43:00 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Bootmessages (was: Re: testing) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF93@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> That would probably be a really good resource for people who tend to see computers around an want to know what they're looking at... It would be especially useful for machines that are similar in enclosure but not in firmware. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Jochen Kunz [mailto:jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de] > What about a (web browseable) collection of prom / boot messages of > classic machines and OSes? > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Dec 11 18:06:36 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Bootmessages (was: Re: testing) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF93@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a great idea to build a pocket reference guide on... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > That would probably be a really good resource for people who tend to see > computers around an want to know what they're looking at... It would be > especially useful for machines that are similar in enclosure but not in > firmware. > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jochen Kunz [mailto:jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de] > > > What about a (web browseable) collection of prom / boot messages of > > classic machines and OSes? > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 11 17:59:31 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Google USENET Archive expanded Message-ID: <200112112359.fBBNxV222246@shell1.aracnet.com> I just saw this on /., the Google USENET archive has been expanded back to May 12th, 1981! It's a great day for Classic Computing! Looks like the oldest message in their archive is DEC related since it talks about a Unibus Versatec interface card. Zane From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 18:09:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <3C146361.7949D7B5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > I wanted to do it old because I actually own a first-revision PDP-11/70 > > which my father bought brand new back in the mid-70's when it first came > > out before I was born. It's a really really neat machine with gobs of I/O > > bandwidth. It's fast too. So it made me think what I might be able to do > > with modern components and still make it compatible with my 11/70. (FYI, > > my 11/70 is still working and is still original, down to its fuses and > > fascia). > > Building my 'prehistoric' CPU, I have discovered I am about 5 years > too late to find TTL. 16 x4 RAM and ALU's are very scarce and never > produced in the newer families. You may still find stuff in 74Fxx but > you still are only about 1/2 the power. I am assuming the 11/70 used > 74Sxx. You can do a lot with FPGA's today but I don't expect a full > grown PDP-11 will fit in a fpga that is not in a 144 pin TQFP package. > Funny how the logic is now 'super large' FPGA's and single gate 'glue' > chips. Yeah. I wasn't actually trying to build it using any specific technology. What I am doing is taking the latest and greatest and building a PDP-11 compatible (one that act's *exactly* like an 11/70, but faster). I am probably not going to be using FPGA's, because I don't think they're yet making FPGA's the speed I want them to go. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 18:01:25 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've discovered a new simple pleasure. Sitting in my storage locker with > > a space heater and my IBM Portable Personal Computer (thanks again, Jeff) > > programming in BASIC in the middle of the night. Ahhh. > > I have a related pleasure. Sitting (just about anywhere) with an HP67 or > HP97 calculator (preferably both :-)). 224 program steps, numeric-only > display. And it's amazing what you can get those machines to do :-) Indeed. I do strange things like trying not to use while...wend, for, and gosub. It can be trying to keep track of all the goto's. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 18:03:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <15382.30471.734274.791708@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Nah, Sridhar doesn't know how to party...do you, Sridhar. ;) > > > Perhaps we can give him some party lessons. 8-) > > > > Remember you're talking to a raver. I party for *days* on end. 8-) > > Nah...too much dancing, not enough drinking! Hey. There are a lot of things more fun than alcohol. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 18:10:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: RE: I've discovered a new pleasure. (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <15382.30471.734274.791708@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15382.41066.974045.696700@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > > Nah, Sridhar doesn't know how to party...do you, Sridhar. ;) > > > > Perhaps we can give him some party lessons. 8-) > > > > > > Remember you're talking to a raver. I party for *days* on end. 8-) > > > > Nah...too much dancing, not enough drinking! > > Hey. There are a lot of things more fun than alcohol. Hey, I LIKE getting drunk! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 18:06:24 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673B8@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > And a hearty "hear-hear!" to that! Not to mention, he doesn't really > look the 'raver' type. Hmmm... ;) You haven't seen me in my party clothes with my hair done up and everything. Dave has. 8-) > Speaking of drinking, Tuesdays (tonight!) are when my APA Pool Team > plays. We're in first, with only two more matches to go! Then playoffs for > the States, then it's off to Vegas after States! Woo-hoo, hopefully! Cool. I like to play pool. I just have to get into practice. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 18:06:59 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: RE: I've discovered a new pleasure. (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <15382.30296.394239.367892@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15382.40867.604377.188956@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's to VCF > > > East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone else brings > > > machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll be welcome to hook > > > up to me. > > > > Eh? The G1 isn't 10 years old, is it? > > It is indeed. Both of mine have manufacture dates in 1991. Ahh, I thought the G1 came out in 1994 or so. I stand corrected. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Dec 11 18:24:13 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Google USENET Archive expanded In-Reply-To: <200112112359.fBBNxV222246@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 11, 1 03:59:31 pm" Message-ID: <200112120024.QAA08936@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I just saw this on /., the Google USENET archive has been expanded back to > May 12th, 1981! It's a great day for Classic Computing! Looks like the > oldest message in their archive is DEC related since it talks about a Unibus > Versatec interface card. I went looking for my first Usenet post ever and found it. I was so young then ... :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If you're not very clever, you should be conciliatory. -- Benjamin Disraeli From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 18:17:08 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Re: Prints for an 11/70 (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <3C146361.7949D7B5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15382.41476.424383.688767@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Yeah. I wasn't actually trying to build it using any specific technology. > What I am doing is taking the latest and greatest and building a PDP-11 > compatible (one that act's *exactly* like an 11/70, but faster). I am > probably not going to be using FPGA's, because I don't think they're yet > making FPGA's the speed I want them to go. You do know about Mentec's new-technology pdp11 processors, right? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Dec 11 18:25:44 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. In-Reply-To: from Boatman on the River of Suck at "Dec 11, 1 07:03:19 pm" Message-ID: <200112120025.QAA08976@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > > Nah, Sridhar doesn't know how to party...do you, Sridhar. ;) > > > > Perhaps we can give him some party lessons. 8-) > > > Remember you're talking to a raver. I party for *days* on end. 8-) > > Nah...too much dancing, not enough drinking! > Hey. There are a lot of things more fun than alcohol. Yes, we know about the BASIC programming already. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Too much of a good thing is wonderful. -- Mae West ------------------------- From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 18:25:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AEA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Before I moved to FL, Sridhar and Brian Hechinger came down to hang > > out and hack on stuff, and crashed on my couches. > > You mean, these people really exist and aren't figments of sendmail's > imagination? :-P Funny, I just recently opened a thread about "discussion bots" on alt.computers.folklore... from what I read and what I'd recalled seeing in the past, I think I can safely say no bots are on this list... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 18:26:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Bootmessages (was: Re: testing) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AEB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > That would probably be a really good resource for people who tend to see > computers around an want to know what they're looking at... It would be > especially useful for machines that are similar in enclosure but not in > firmware. I think we could extrac them from issues of PHRACK... ;) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 18:26:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: testing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AEC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I'd give up all of Congress for one Richard Feynman. > > > > I'd give up considerably more than that. "Surely you're joking, > Mr. Feynman!" is probably one of the most enjoyable books > I've ever read. THAt was the name of the book, couldn't recall when Sellam and I were discussing it... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 18:30:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Google USENET Archive expanded Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AEE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I just saw this on /., the Google USENET archive has been expanded back to > May 12th, 1981! It's a great day for Classic Computing! Looks like the > oldest message in their archive is DEC related since it talks about a Unibus > Versatec interface card. Depends on the group, I think... I found that comp.sys.cdc goes back to February 1989, just a bit before CDC killed off ETA... -dq From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Dec 11 17:51:22 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? In-Reply-To: <3C16791E.5000707@cnonline.net> Message-ID: >Is there any way to connect an apple IIC Plus to a "modern" >monitor? > >It has a 15 pin connector that has a strange pin out - and a >composit video out on an RCA plug. Composite out Its pretty much a normal NTSC signal, just find a monitor with the bandwidth to look nice at 80 col. 15 Pin This isn't really a video output, its a video output ADAPTER connection, ie the signals are there, but without the juice to drive more than a few inches of cable. Sounds like a great project for somebody, designing a modern monitor adapter connection. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Dec 11 18:15:27 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Shareing ... (Applesoft Programs) In-Reply-To: <3C167257.9030606@cnonline.net> Message-ID: >Hey peoples! > >I have been spending my time working programs in >Applesoft basic. > >What would be the best way to share these programs with >others? > >I have an apple II c with 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 " floppies. For a start join an Apple II oriented list subscribe, email: The storage and distribution standard these days is a Apple II emulation file as is used by either a Mac or PC. Pick the host you have best access to, then check the emulation faq for it and all the details for moving files back and forth should be there. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 11 18:29:29 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > With all that iron, ya gotta throw a party sometime soon! > > > > > > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's to VCF > > > East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone else brings > > > machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll be welcome to hook > > > up to me. > > > > Ok, Russ, to see Sridhar's stuff, we gotta get together and do a > > > > Hillbilly VCF 1.0 > > > > If we time it right and have it in Owensboro, we could > > make it a part of the Kentucky Burgoo Festival... > > > > ;) > > Why don't you come out to VCFE next year? It'll only be about a > half-day's drive. The last time I even tried to take a vacation, I saved up from January till June to attend AudiFest '98 at Pike's Peak. The turbo blew in the quattro a week before and it took all I'd saved to fix it. Including selling the tickets. Coupled with a meager $30k yearly as a sysadmin running an IIS webserver might give you an idea as to the dreadfullness of my circumstances. Were I only willing to leave God's Country, I know I could better that salary in a heartbeat... -dq From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 11 18:41:35 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:47 2005 Subject: Google USENET Archive expanded In-Reply-To: from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Dec 11, 2001 07:30:26 PM Message-ID: <200112120041.fBC0fZx25442@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I just saw this on /., the Google USENET archive has been expanded back to > > May 12th, 1981! It's a great day for Classic Computing! Looks like the > > oldest message in their archive is DEC related since it talks about a Unibus > > Versatec interface card. > > Depends on the group, I think... I found that comp.sys.cdc > goes back to February 1989, just a bit before CDC killed > off ETA... > > -dq > I'm not surprised, I've not had a chance to see what kinds of PDP-10 and PDP-11 stuff can be dug up. Hmm, for that matter, it might be time to check out comp.sys.harris, and a couple others... Zane From CLeyson at aol.com Tue Dec 11 18:44:25 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <122.8ed5477.29480269@aol.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: >Yeah. I wasn't actually trying to build it using any specific technology. >What I am doing is taking the latest and greatest and building a PDP-11 >compatible (one that act's *exactly* like an 11/70, but faster). I am >probably not going to be using FPGA's, because I don't think they're yet >making FPGA's the speed I want them to go. Would 200MHz be fast enough ? A lot of the Xilinx fpga's offer 5ns pin to pin delay. I'd be interested in finding out about the 11/40 architecture - was it a bit-sliced design, how deep was the pipeline etc.? I'm going to have a go at an HP21XX machine of some description next year. It's just going to emulate some of the HP custom processors and speed isn't going to be an issue. BTW the HP2116 Cordic Co-processor ran with a cycle time of 200ns - not exactly fast - add/sub 50-100us mpy/div 100-150us. Yawn. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/f0ec96ee/attachment.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Dec 11 19:33:57 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Re-Finds while moving storages Message-ID: <013001c182ad$19081e00$bc721fd1@default> Today I spent 8 hours moving stuff from one smaller storage unit to a much larger one and found goodies I long forgot about. I have not seen the back off this storage unit for almost 3 years. Here's a list of some items; 1. PET 2001 series 2001-8 in good shape, will take home and test it. 2. CBM 2001 series 8 machine has been modified with new keyboard in place of tape unit and smaller keys. 3. Commodore model C128D in great shape. 4. TRS80 model 1 5. PolyMorphic System 8813 model 8813/1 with wooden case. 6. CPT disk unit 8 ID# 931203 7. ADDS Ultimate model 25 8. SOROC model IQ120 9. Franklin PC8000 in great shape There were a lot more plus I still have not finished moving items yet. If I was not moving I would get me a heater and play also. From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 11 14:50:08 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <15382.19932.815292.970996@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: OT: Smoking (Zach Malone) Message-ID: <20011212014544.DKVO23490.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Look to /. This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) Cheers, Wizard From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 19:36:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Re-Finds while moving storages In-Reply-To: Re-Finds while moving storages (John R. Keys Jr.) References: <013001c182ad$19081e00$bc721fd1@default> Message-ID: <15382.46239.804196.75693@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Today I spent 8 hours moving stuff from one smaller storage unit to a > much larger one and found goodies I long forgot about. I have not seen > the back off this storage unit for almost 3 years. Here's a list of some > items; > 1. PET 2001 series 2001-8 in good shape, will take home and test it. > 2. CBM 2001 series 8 machine has been modified with new keyboard in > place of tape unit and smaller keys. > 3. Commodore model C128D in great shape. > 4. TRS80 model 1 > 5. PolyMorphic System 8813 model 8813/1 with wooden case. > 6. CPT disk unit 8 ID# 931203 > 7. ADDS Ultimate model 25 > 8. SOROC model IQ120 > 9. Franklin PC8000 in great shape > There were a lot more plus I still have not finished moving items yet. > If I was not moving I would get me a heater and play also. Where ya movin' to, John? A SOROC IQ120!! Ahh, the memories! :-) If you're lookin' for a home for that TRS80 model 1, drop me a note. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Dec 11 20:12:57 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Re-Finds while moving storages References: <013001c182ad$19081e00$bc721fd1@default> <15382.46239.804196.75693@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <013b01c182b2$86709800$bc721fd1@default> Moving to Houston on the 25th of this month (1st trip/load), will take about 5 trips using a 24' rental truck to get all the computers and stuff down there from MN. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Re-Finds while moving storages > On December 11, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > Today I spent 8 hours moving stuff from one smaller storage unit to a > > much larger one and found goodies I long forgot about. I have not seen > > the back off this storage unit for almost 3 years. Here's a list of some > > items; > > 1. PET 2001 series 2001-8 in good shape, will take home and test it. > > 2. CBM 2001 series 8 machine has been modified with new keyboard in > > place of tape unit and smaller keys. > > 3. Commodore model C128D in great shape. > > 4. TRS80 model 1 > > 5. PolyMorphic System 8813 model 8813/1 with wooden case. > > 6. CPT disk unit 8 ID# 931203 > > 7. ADDS Ultimate model 25 > > 8. SOROC model IQ120 > > 9. Franklin PC8000 in great shape > > There were a lot more plus I still have not finished moving items yet. > > If I was not moving I would get me a heater and play also. > > Where ya movin' to, John? > > A SOROC IQ120!! Ahh, the memories! :-) If you're lookin' for a home > for that TRS80 model 1, drop me a note. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 19:52:34 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <15382.41476.424383.688767@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yeah. I wasn't actually trying to build it using any specific technology. > > What I am doing is taking the latest and greatest and building a PDP-11 > > compatible (one that act's *exactly* like an 11/70, but faster). I am > > probably not going to be using FPGA's, because I don't think they're yet > > making FPGA's the speed I want them to go. > > You do know about Mentec's new-technology pdp11 processors, right? Yeah. I was thinking of something a good deal faster, with UNIBUS. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 19:53:51 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <122.8ed5477.29480269@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Would 200MHz be fast enough ? A lot of the Xilinx fpga's offer 5ns pin to pin In a word, no. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 19:54:43 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > 15 Pin > This isn't really a video output, its a video output ADAPTER connection, ie > the signals are there, but without the juice to drive more than a few > inches of cable. Sounds like a great project for somebody, designing a > modern monitor adapter connection. Couldn't you do it with a VGA line driver? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 20:09:36 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: RIP: Betty Holberton (jpero@sympatico.ca) References: <20011212014544.DKVO23490.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <15382.48224.734355.233306@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Look to /. > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 11 15:23:28 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <15382.48224.734355.233306@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: RIP: Betty Holberton (jpero@sympatico.ca) Message-ID: <20011212021904.HQLN24966.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:09:36 -0500 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RIP: Betty Holberton > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Look to /. > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > > -Dave No problem, I stand corrected, thanks. See, I'm rather bad with name and their past, their looks. Cheers, Wizard From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 20:13:30 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Re: Prints for an 11/70 (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <122.8ed5477.29480269@aol.com> Message-ID: <15382.48458.155075.709137@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > Would 200MHz be fast enough ? A lot of the Xilinx fpga's offer 5ns pin to pin > > In a word, no. 8-) Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 11 15:49:43 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <15382.48458.155075.709137@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Prints for an 11/70 (Boatman on the River of Suck) Message-ID: <20011212024519.ECCA27710.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:13:30 -0500 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Prints for an 11/70 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > Would 200MHz be fast enough ? A lot of the Xilinx fpga's offer 5ns pin to pin > > > > In a word, no. 8-) > > Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? That rate, if Sridhar is looking at sub 5ns pin-pin, he's looking at around 50 to 100MHz. Just my SWAG. FYI: PII 233 has 7ns sync-sram cycling at 133MHz. If true, that would be blisteringly fast PDP11/70 on size of a small 12" x 12" board roughly. That means putting in certain lengths of critcial traces to get timing come together at right moment (hence the zig-zag traces), low voltage swings, 2 levels of caches, etc. Blatent easy way out is emulate that 11/70 on athlon XP 1900+. :-) Smack me if you dare. :-) Cheers, Wizard > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 20:54:53 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Re: Prints for an 11/70 (jpero@sympatico.ca) References: <20011212024519.ECCA27710.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <15382.50941.854406.410141@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > That rate, if Sridhar is looking at sub 5ns pin-pin, he's looking > at around 50 to 100MHz. Just my SWAG. FYI: PII 233 has 7ns > sync-sram cycling at 133MHz. > > If true, that would be blisteringly fast PDP11/70 on size of a small > 12" x 12" board roughly. > > That means putting in certain lengths of critcial traces to get > timing come together at right moment (hence the zig-zag traces), low > voltage swings, 2 levels of caches, etc. > > Blatent easy way out is emulate that 11/70 on athlon XP 1900+. :-) > Smack me if you dare. :-) Oh, puh-YUKE!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 11 16:58:32 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <15382.48458.155075.709137@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011212035408.FPMR27710.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:48:22 -0500 (EST) > From: Boatman on the River of Suck > To: > Subject: Re: Prints for an 11/70 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? > > I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. > > Peace... Sridhar Dave is right on that "Jeeeeezus" part. And my eyes popped. At 1Gighurtz, that is squarely in the one or two inches of traces between CPU and one or two chipsets in turn talking to sluggard chipsets for I/O and outside world stuff, cache intergated w/ CPU die itself, outside talking at DDR rate 266MHz DDR or 333Mhz DDR. 60W heat, .18 or .13 microns, 1.7V, very tiny voltage swings for 1 and 0 signaling, and fairly heavy on pipelining. In other words, $$$. This doesn't means lost the game. Far from it. Athlon XP 1900+ or XP 2200+ (AMD plans to release this in spring to keep Intel hopping.) on 266A chipset, DDR ram, SCSI stuff. All you do is finish the emulation and build up a industial i/o PCI card to interface with front panel for i/o, tape i/o etc. Put the actual core stuff in a standard ATX. CPU makers had to kick off the external cache and stuff the smaller cache (often 256K, 128K, 64K or ugh, no cache ala original celerons) into same CPU die when they went past 600MHz. AMD kept with external cache on slot A processor for awhile longer with few higher clocked CPUs but at big penalty in clock by dividing the CPU clock lower than 1/2 for L2 extneral cache. Intel didn't and went directly to coppermine above 600MHz. I really miss the 512K cache bec time and again I find that size is needed for best performance. But both Intel and AMD is already moving to .13 microns to permit small die (to get enough useable dies from one wafer.) with 512K. FYI: Intel already have PIII w/ 512K Tualatin ($$$) and will get revised P4 w/ 512K this spring. Ick. AMD have it in works on 512K athlon, yay. I wish for 1MB athlon seriously. :-I Cheers, Wizard From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 20:48:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <15382.48458.155075.709137@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Would 200MHz be fast enough ? A lot of the Xilinx fpga's offer 5ns pin to pin > > > > In a word, no. 8-) > > Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. Peace... Sridhar From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Dec 11 21:32:31 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sridhar wrote: > I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. Cool. That only requires 18 month old fab technology :-) Assuming you can figure out an implementation that will work within the limits of the fab's process, can bum simulator time and are a reasonably capable mix of CPU designer and floorplan wizard it shouldn't cost you more than low to mid six figures (US) to buy your way into a fab that has a process that can hit that speed range. To have something to carry to the fab you can probably reduce the 11/70 schematics to a netlist and feed it to a suitable synthesis and floorplanning toolchain, but the result of the synthesis will never meet your speed requirements. I'd expect that you'll need to do at least _some_ custom cell work, so be sure you're facile with dorking with individual transistors and precharge logic. Maybe you should wait five years and see how fast programmable logic gets ;-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From CLeyson at aol.com Tue Dec 11 20:29:59 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <169.57f482c.29481b27@aol.com> Sridhar You really do mean fast don't you ? I'm intrigued - please tell us more. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/c2809e4f/attachment.html From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 20:53:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <169.57f482c.29481b27@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Sridhar > > You really do mean fast don't you ? > I'm intrigued - please tell us more. Well, I want the whole thing to *look* like an 11/70, to software, and physically, but I want it to be blazing fast. Peace... Sridhar From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 20:32:22 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: <3C146361.7949D7B5@jetnet.ab.ca> <15382.41476.424383.688767@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C16C1B6.8A3CD70C@verizon.net> And Gator Eggs? Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > Yeah. I wasn't actually trying to build it using any specific technology. > > What I am doing is taking the latest and greatest and building a PDP-11 > > compatible (one that act's *exactly* like an 11/70, but faster). I am > > probably not going to be using FPGA's, because I don't think they're yet > > making FPGA's the speed I want them to go. > > You do know about Mentec's new-technology pdp11 processors, right? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 20:41:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Re: Prints for an 11/70 (Ian Koller) References: <3C146361.7949D7B5@jetnet.ab.ca> <15382.41476.424383.688767@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C16C1B6.8A3CD70C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <15382.50159.905598.385888@phaduka.neurotica.com> Gator eggs? -Dave On December 11, Ian Koller wrote: > > > And Gator Eggs? > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > Yeah. I wasn't actually trying to build it using any specific technology. > > > What I am doing is taking the latest and greatest and building a PDP-11 > > > compatible (one that act's *exactly* like an 11/70, but faster). I am > > > probably not going to be using FPGA's, because I don't think they're yet > > > making FPGA's the speed I want them to go. > > > > You do know about Mentec's new-technology pdp11 processors, right? > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire > > St. Petersburg, FL > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 21:40:13 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: <3C146361.7949D7B5@jetnet.ab.ca> <15382.41476.424383.688767@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C16C1B6.8A3CD70C@verizon.net> <15382.50159.905598.385888@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C16D19C.492E1AEB@verizon.net> A processor good for use in hardware emulation designs, or so I heard? Dave McGuire wrote: > > Gator eggs? > > -Dave > > On December 11, Ian Koller wrote: > > > > > > And Gator Eggs? > > > > > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > > On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > > Yeah. I wasn't actually trying to build it using any specific technology. > > > > What I am doing is taking the latest and greatest and building a PDP-11 > > > > compatible (one that act's *exactly* like an 11/70, but faster). I am > > > > probably not going to be using FPGA's, because I don't think they're yet > > > > making FPGA's the speed I want them to go. > > > > > > You do know about Mentec's new-technology pdp11 processors, right? > > > > > > -Dave > > > > > > -- > > > Dave McGuire > > > St. Petersburg, FL > > > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 11 21:06:36 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: Message-ID: <3C16C9BC.9D5726A5@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > > Would 200MHz be fast enough ? A lot of the Xilinx fpga's offer 5ns pin to pin > > In a word, no. 8-) > > Peace... Sridhar May I recomend the book "CMOS - Circuit design,layout and simulation" ISBN- 0-7803-3416-7 It is a bit dated - 1998 I hope you have deep pockets as a one-off custom CMOS chip is not cheap. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 21:26:55 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <3C16C9BC.9D5726A5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > In a word, no. 8-) > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > May I recomend the book "CMOS - Circuit design,layout and simulation" > ISBN- 0-7803-3416-7 It is a bit dated - 1998 I hope you have deep > pockets > as a one-off custom CMOS chip is not cheap. I was actually thinking of having one my my friends run it off for me for free. He works in the IBM East Fishkill Process Development Lab. I was planning on doing it in discrete bipolar components. Peace... Sridhar From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 11 21:37:53 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: <20011210234727.L69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3C16D111.89C2E6C8@bellsouth.net> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > Does anyone know where I might find prints for a PDP-11/70? > > The only thing I've ever found was at > > http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/ > > but the PDP-11/70 printset there is an early version with a KB11-B CPU. Getting back to the original question: Has anybody scanned a complete set of drawings for the KB11-C? As Jeff pointed out, the only ones I have found online are the ones on mainecoon. I've collected quite a few drawing sets of other systems and components, both original and in electronic form. Unfortunately, I don't have the drawings for my own 11/70. -- Doug Carman pdp11 at bellsouth dot net From CLeyson at aol.com Tue Dec 11 21:39:41 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <171.57ead3c.29482b7d@aol.com> On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: >I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. Tunnel diode logic seems to be making a bit of a comeback - still in the development stage but it's better thas GaAs Williamson et al., "12 GHz Clocked Operation of Ultralow Power Interband Resonant Tunneling Diode Pipelined Logic Gates." IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits, Vol 32 No 2 February 1997. pp222-231 (ISSN 0018-9200) Fast enough ? Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011211/73922000/attachment.html From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 21:57:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <171.57ead3c.29482b7d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > >I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. > > Tunnel diode logic seems to be making a bit of a comeback - still in > the development stage but it's better thas GaAs > > Williamson et al., "12 GHz Clocked Operation of Ultralow Power > Interband Resonant Tunneling Diode Pipelined Logic Gates." > IEEE Journal of Solid-State Circuits, Vol 32 No 2 February 1997. > pp222-231 (ISSN 0018-9200) > > Fast enough ? Oooh. Oooh ooh ooh! Peace... Sridhar From mew_list at swbell.net Tue Dec 11 20:22:58 2001 From: mew_list at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: SBC-11/21 Falcon -trade Message-ID: <3C16BF82.371C@swbell.net> Folks, Anyone have a M7676 Falcon board they'd like to part with? Are there schematics this one? --Mitch From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 20:25:08 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3C16C004.680F72CC@verizon.net> But that $30k might go further in Kentucky than $90k would in New York or the Bay Area. Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > > > With all that iron, ya gotta throw a party sometime soon! > > > > > > > > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's to VCF > > > > East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone else brings > > > > machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll be welcome to > hook > > > > up to me. > > > > > > Ok, Russ, to see Sridhar's stuff, we gotta get together and do a > > > > > > Hillbilly VCF 1.0 > > > > > > If we time it right and have it in Owensboro, we could > > > make it a part of the Kentucky Burgoo Festival... > > > > > > ;) > > > > Why don't you come out to VCFE next year? It'll only be about a > > half-day's drive. > > The last time I even tried to take a vacation, I saved up > from January till June to attend AudiFest '98 at Pike's > Peak. The turbo blew in the quattro a week before and it > took all I'd saved to fix it. Including selling the tickets. > > Coupled with a meager $30k yearly as a sysadmin running an IIS > webserver might give you an idea as to the dreadfullness of my > circumstances. > > Were I only willing to leave God's Country, I know I could > better that salary in a heartbeat... > > -dq From ken at seefried.com Tue Dec 11 20:35:34 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: HP HDSP-2490 In-Reply-To: <200112120148.fBC1mIN28715@ns2.ezwind.net> References: <200112120148.fBC1mIN28715@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20011212023534.7692.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Perhaps slightly off-topic (other than being a resonably old part), but would anyone around here have a datasheet (or, at least, a pin-out) for an HP HDSP-2490? This is an odd, 4-digit, 5x7 led matrix display. It's in a 28-pin dip, and looks to have some intellegence built in. The answer from HP (nee Agilent) is "long since obsolete, we know nothing". Thanks... Ken From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 11 20:43:54 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: HP HDSP-2490 In-Reply-To: HP HDSP-2490 (Ken Seefried) References: <200112120148.fBC1mIN28715@ns2.ezwind.net> <20011212023534.7692.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <15382.50282.194218.155969@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Ken Seefried wrote: > Perhaps slightly off-topic (other than being a resonably old part), but > would anyone around here have a datasheet (or, at least, a pin-out) for an > HP HDSP-2490? This is an odd, 4-digit, 5x7 led matrix display. It's in a > 28-pin dip, and looks to have some intellegence built in. > > The answer from HP (nee Agilent) is "long since obsolete, we know nothing". Yeah, after all, NOBODY uses displays anymore. GOD I hate suits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Dec 11 20:42:24 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Re-Finds while moving storages In-Reply-To: <013001c182ad$19081e00$bc721fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Dec 11, 01 07:33:57 pm Message-ID: <200112120242.VAA05038@wordstock.com> > > Today I spent 8 hours moving stuff from one smaller storage unit to a > much larger one and found goodies I long forgot about. I have not seen > the back off this storage unit for almost 3 years. Here's a list of some > items; > 1. PET 2001 series 2001-8 in good shape, will take home and test it. > 2. CBM 2001 series 8 machine has been modified with new keyboard in > place of tape unit and smaller keys. > 3. Commodore model C128D in great shape. > 4. TRS80 model 1 > 5. PolyMorphic System 8813 model 8813/1 with wooden case. > 6. CPT disk unit 8 ID# 931203 > 7. ADDS Ultimate model 25 > 8. SOROC model IQ120 > 9. Franklin PC8000 in great shape > There were a lot more plus I still have not finished moving items yet. > If I was not moving I would get me a heater and play also. > Very cool!! ... Don't forget the storage locker though... ;) There was a 2001 on eBay recently with keyboard in place of the tape unit. But they were selling the keyboard unit separate from the PET! :-/ Bryan From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 20:54:40 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: DECnet License Message-ID: Hi. I have the OpenVMS Hobbyist Kit and I can't seem to find the DECnet Phase IV license PAK. I have both the OS PAK and the layered products PAK's. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 11 21:31:06 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: DECnet License In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Hi. I have the OpenVMS Hobbyist Kit and I can't seem to find the DECnet > Phase IV license PAK. I have both the OS PAK and the layered products > PAK's. Isn't that licensed under the UCX pak? See ya later, Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 11 22:01:12 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: Message-ID: <3C16D688.FF9276A4@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > In a word, no. 8-) > > > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > May I recomend the book "CMOS - Circuit design,layout and simulation" > > ISBN- 0-7803-3416-7 It is a bit dated - 1998 I hope you have deep > > pockets > > as a one-off custom CMOS chip is not cheap. > > I was actually thinking of having one my my friends run it off for me for > free. He works in the IBM East Fishkill Process Development Lab. I was > planning on doing it in discrete bipolar components. > > Peace... Sridhar Well read the book anyway! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 22:26:02 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:48 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <3C16D688.FF9276A4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > In a word, no. 8-) > > > > > > May I recomend the book "CMOS - Circuit design,layout and simulation" > > > ISBN- 0-7803-3416-7 It is a bit dated - 1998 I hope you have deep > > > pockets > > > as a one-off custom CMOS chip is not cheap. > > > > I was actually thinking of having one my my friends run it off for me for > > free. He works in the IBM East Fishkill Process Development Lab. I was > > planning on doing it in discrete bipolar components. > > Well read the book anyway! I'll do that. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 11 22:09:56 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: Message-ID: <3C16D894.31664246@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Sridhar wrote: > > > I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. > > Cool. That only requires 18 month old fab technology :-) > > Assuming you can figure out an implementation that will > work within the limits of the fab's process, can bum > simulator time and are a reasonably capable mix of > CPU designer and floorplan wizard it shouldn't cost > you more than low to mid six figures (US) to buy your > way into a fab that has a process that can hit that > speed range. If you don't mind manual labor, you can get free software. http://members.aol.com/lasicad/index.htm It goes with the fore mentioned book. Prototype fab will be about $30K. ( depends on chip size ). The real problem is the patents / intellectual property of DEC here. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Dec 11 22:25:49 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <3C16D894.31664246@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Ben Franchuk wrote: [snip] > Prototype fab will be about $30K. ( depends on chip size ). Um, if you can point me to a .18 or finer fab that will even answer the phone for $30K I'd love to hear about it. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 11 23:12:20 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: Message-ID: <3C16E734.6B6CFE8B@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > [snip] > > > Prototype fab will be about $30K. ( depends on chip size ). > > Um, if you can point me to a .18 or finer fab that will even > answer the phone for $30K I'd love to hear about it. This is a top of the head figure. Since I have computer budget of $50 a month I don't check that often for the latest fab prices. I will stick to slow FPGA's for now. That is not to say I would not like my latest and not so great cpu in real silicon. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html PS. Note even doing chip design in slow technology will show the strengths and weakness of a design. Remember too with the massive pipelining that a real instruction could be 1/10 the clock speed. Note I still think the 6800/6500 architecture makes sense than massive pipelining to save a few % in clock cycles. From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Tue Dec 11 22:20:54 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200112120420.RAA17000@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Chris Kennedy : > Maybe you should wait five years and see how fast > programmable logic gets ;-) But in 5 years he'll want it to go at 32GHz... Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From rws at enteract.com Tue Dec 11 22:33:02 2001 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. What about some sort of non-saturating logic, like ECL? I know they have it down to several hundred picosecond propagation times. I'd suspect you can buy it in unmounted dies, so you can cram enough on a board to make it reasonably sized and with short enough traces. Then you get the challenge of cooling it... Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 11 22:58:09 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Richard W. Schauer wrote: > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. > > What about some sort of non-saturating logic, like ECL? I know they have > it down to several hundred picosecond propagation times. I'd suspect you > can buy it in unmounted dies, so you can cram enough on a board to make it > reasonably sized and with short enough traces. Then you get the challenge > of cooling it... That's a thought. I will have to look into that? Peace... Sridhar From donm at cts.com Tue Dec 11 22:18:55 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > But, expect cat and dog hair. In particular, expect cat hair in > > > keyboards; cats take to keyboards like taxi drivers take to beaded seat > > > cushions! > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > My cats have always been more intent on distracting me than playing with > > the computer, or sleep on it. They'll walk on the keyboard while I'm > > using it, or walk in my line of the monitor, etc. > > I think what happens with keyboards is that the cat hair settles in it > > from the air..... cat hair becomes air borne very easily. Since you > > can't really wipe the hair off from in between the keys.... like you can > > wipe the hair from the desk, so it just builds up. > > I deal with all of the computers for the Berkeley East Bay Humane > Society. The resident cats in the office all like to sleep on keyboards. > > I set them up with keyboard drawers whenever I can get them cheap, or they > get donated (hint. HINT!) But training the office staff to shut the > drawers when not in use isn't easy. Yeh, probably as easy as training a cat! - don > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Dec 11 23:05:21 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: Message-ID: <3C16E591.9E1CC646@internet1.net> Borax? The laundry booster? What is Alconox? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I believe that Jon Singer and I reached a consensus that Alconox and Borax > can do something about it. 8-) > > Peace... Sridhar From fernande at internet1.net Tue Dec 11 23:08:21 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <01Dec11.121300est.119234@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <15382.21107.774288.382878@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C16E645.889D4E4@internet1.net> Oh, you didn't say you had a "crazy cat lady" on your hands. That is a lot of cats! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeff Hellige wrote: > A single cat isn't much of a problem, but the woman I'm > referring to has a dozen or more. Even her office has more than it's > share of cat hair, as she's worked in it for about 15 years. That > many cats make a bit of a difference! > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 11 22:31:50 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Dec 11, 2001 09:31:06 PM Message-ID: <200112120432.fBC4WGH01552@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Hi. I have the OpenVMS Hobbyist Kit and I can't seem to find the DECnet > > Phase IV license PAK. I have both the OS PAK and the layered products > > PAK's. > > Isn't that licensed under the UCX pak? No, UCX is TCPIP. You need DVNETEND or DVNETEXT. Zane DVNETEND DECnet/OSI End-Node OpenVMS AXP MTF 42.25.xx DVNETEND DECnet/OSI End-Node OpenVMS VAX D04 25.03.xx DVNETEND Basic function license (DVNETEND) --- provides end system support. DVNETEXT DECnet/OSI EF OpenVMS AXP MTG 42.25.xx DVNETEXT DECnet/OSI EF OpenVMS AXP MTH 25.03.xx DVNETEXT Extended function license (DVNETEXT) for Alpha systems --- provides end system support, DECdts server, cluster alias, and OSI applications gateways. A DVNETRTG license which isn't supplied would be needed to run a DECdns server From dittman at dittman.net Tue Dec 11 22:39:41 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License In-Reply-To: from "Boatman on the River of Suck" at Dec 11, 2001 09:54:40 PM Message-ID: <200112120439.fBC4df726102@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Hi. I have the OpenVMS Hobbyist Kit and I can't seem to find the DECnet > Phase IV license PAK. I have both the OS PAK and the layered products > PAK's. The DECnet licenses are DVNET*. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Dec 11 22:34:54 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Need "PC Mouse" driver for PCjr .. Message-ID: >I've been using a Logitech Wheel Mouse (optical) for more than a year now >on my OS/2-based pc. > >My Sparc has an old-style optical mouse (requires special HARD TO FIND >pad). Easy to find, NEVER cheap. ;) I used to sell them for $5 to $10, then a local Sun guy found out I had some and he bought them all. Me too on the optical meese. I bought a CHEAP Inland brand for $8.99 at MicroCenter, and its almost weird at first using it because it NEVER skips, sticks,etc. and my brain isn't used to that. The scroll wheel spoils you real fast too. My finger is already "looking" for it on lesser mice. My understanding is that the new optical mice compare the surface image to detect movement. Fancy stuff, but isn't the interface to the PC still the same? From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 11 22:55:57 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: H89 docs/help requested Message-ID: <20011212045759.BVP29288.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Tony Duell > When you do a few more tests, I'll dig out the manual. I know I have all > the schematics, etc... Sounds good -- and thanks for all the help on this box. I just got my Z-100 up and dual-booting CP/M-86 and ZDOS, so the H89 is now at the top of my Unfinished Projects List. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 11 23:15:11 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <20011212051714.GKII26840.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: David Woyciesjes > Speaking of drinking, Tuesdays (tonight!) are when my APA Pool Team > plays. We're in first, with only two more matches to go! Then playoffs for > the States, then it's off to Vegas after States! Woo-hoo, hopefully! Hope you make it to Vegas! BTW what level are you? I shot for a few years but never made it beyond a 4. No problem making the shots but post-shot cue ball positioning hung me up. Glen 0/0 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 11 23:25:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? References: Message-ID: <003a01c182cd$6a976da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Why would anyone want to do such a thing? You just it hook up with a simple RCA cable to a TV set with a VIDEO input, which nearly all of them have nowadays. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boatman on the River of Suck" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > > 15 Pin > > This isn't really a video output, its a video output ADAPTER connection, ie > > the signals are there, but without the juice to drive more than a few > > inches of cable. Sounds like a great project for somebody, designing a > > modern monitor adapter connection. > > Couldn't you do it with a VGA line driver? > > Peace... Sridhar > > From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 11 23:50:54 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Google USENET Archive expanded In-Reply-To: <200112120041.fBC0fZx25442@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20011211234837.Q72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm not surprised, I've not had a chance to see what kinds of PDP-10 > and PDP-11 stuff can be dug up. Is anybody thinking what I'm thinking? "Hello, you posted the following message to USENET about 15 years ago. I was wondering if that machine was still available for pickup." -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 06:38:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Google USENET Archive expanded Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I'm not surprised, I've not had a chance to see what kinds of PDP-10 > > and PDP-11 stuff can be dug up. > > Is anybody thinking what I'm thinking? > > "Hello, you posted the following message to USENET about 15 years ago. > I was wondering if that machine was still available for pickup." I was developing a TAPI/TSPI driver for Rockwell-based chipset voice modems back in 1994. I *still* get requests for expertise on the chipset... -dq From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Dec 12 07:18:52 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Google USENET Archive expanded In-Reply-To: <200112112359.fBBNxV222246@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011212081852.0103fbec@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:59 PM 12/11/01 -0800, Zane wrote: >I just saw this on /., the Google USENET archive has been expanded back to >May 12th, 1981! It's a great day for Classic Computing! Looks like the >oldest message in their archive is DEC related since it talks about a Unibus >Versatec interface card. Yes, I read that too and proceeded to search for my first post. I could not find it; I think that the archive is still incomplete. I should have shown up as EG200123@vmtecmex.bitnet sometime in 1988-89 (the digits might be wrong). We had to be routed through ksuvm.ksu.edu or ricevm1.rice.edu . For a while we used bang-paths... carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 11 23:56:14 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Re-Finds while moving storages In-Reply-To: <013b01c182b2$86709800$bc721fd1@default> Message-ID: <20011211235439.T72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Moving to Houston on the 25th of this month (1st trip/load), will take > about 5 trips using a 24' rental truck to get all the computers and > stuff down there from MN. ^^^^^^^ Judging from the rental rates I paid earlier this year, I do not envy your situation. Which rental company are you using? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Dec 12 08:02:15 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Cost of move(Re-Finds while moving storages) References: <20011211235439.T72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <006201c18315$a7ffde00$63721fd1@default> I'm using Budget and you are right the cost is very high. I tried to find someone with their own tractor and trailer but no luck so that I could get it all there in one trip. I not only have rent trucks but purchase several airline tickets to fly back here from Texas each time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:56 PM Subject: Re: Re-Finds while moving storages > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > Moving to Houston on the 25th of this month (1st trip/load), will take > > about 5 trips using a 24' rental truck to get all the computers and > > stuff down there from MN. > ^^^^^^^ > Judging from the rental rates I paid earlier this year, I do not envy your > situation. Which rental company are you using? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 06:18:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Re-Finds while moving storages Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Moving to Houston on the 25th of this month (1st trip/load), will take > about 5 trips using a 24' rental truck to get all the computers and > stuff down there from MN. Dude- Wouldn't United Van Lines be cheaper? They move vintage computers with the same grace and delicacy that they move fine crystal or china. -dq From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 00:20:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License In-Reply-To: <200112120439.fBC4df726102@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Hi. I have the OpenVMS Hobbyist Kit and I can't seem to find the DECnet > > Phase IV license PAK. I have both the OS PAK and the layered products > > PAK's. > > The DECnet licenses are DVNET*. Thanks. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 12 01:06:27 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License In-Reply-To: <200112120432.fBC4WGH01552@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Isn't that licensed under the UCX pak? > > No, UCX is TCPIP. You need DVNETEND or DVNETEXT. > > Zane Oh. I have to admit, VMS pretty much escapes me in general. Give me a little time with most any unix and I can get around pretty OK, but I've been trying off-and-on for a year to get my head around this stuff and it just don't hunt. I'm still looking for that magical "first clue". Doc From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 01:39:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > Oh. > I have to admit, VMS pretty much escapes me in general. Give me a > little time with most any unix and I can get around pretty OK, but > I've been trying off-and-on for a year to get my head around this stuff > and it just don't hunt. I'm still looking for that magical "first clue". The "help" and "show" commands are your friends. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Dec 12 01:49:54 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License References: Message-ID: <041901c182e1$97605590$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:36 PM Subject: Re: DECnet License > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > Isn't that licensed under the UCX pak? > > > > No, UCX is TCPIP. You need DVNETEND or DVNETEXT. > > > > Zane > > Oh. > I have to admit, VMS pretty much escapes me in general. Give me a > little time with most any unix and I can get around pretty OK, but > I've been trying off-and-on for a year to get my head around this stuff > and it just don't hunt. I'm still looking for that magical "first clue". The clue is that "It ain't Unix" so you need not to think Unix oriented thoughts, because it just does not work like it. The DCL syntax is vaguely reminiscent of DOS in some ways, but it's really not a lot like anything other than VMS, though some of the file and directory privs are suggestive of Netware. A few things. LOGICAL ~= DOS Environment Variable (SET) SYMBOL is a settable 'alias' for a longer command, can be defined from DCL, sylogin.com or login.com USER SYSTEM = ROOT under Unix, but unlike Unix, any user can be made with equivalent privs, or anything between that and nothing. The default home directory for SYSTEM is SYS$MANAGER, where the SY*.COM (System wide) .com files live, and SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM which is more or less like the DOS AUTOEXEC.BAT. SET DEFAULT (path) = CD SHOW DEFAULT = PWD in Unix. DIR = DIR (!) LS works if you are ftping in usually. A .COM file is not a binary, it's more like a DOS batch file or a shell script. to run a com file, precede with an @ sign. to run an EXE file precede it with the RUN (or just R) command ie R AUTHORIZE The path syntax is unique, but basically it's DEVICENAME:[dir.dir.dir.dir]filename.ext;version so to go to the root of the system disk (boot drive) the correct command would be SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000000] SHO DEFAULT would give SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000000] File sizes are reported as the number of 512byte blocks. There is no common root directory, each drive has it's own, and there can also be logical roots that are a higher level directory. For instance MX_ROOT:[000000] is, on a typical system, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[MX] and/or (on ours) $1$DUA1:[MX] The root directory of any drive is DEVICENAME:[000000] If there is something specific you have trouble with, post here and I'll do my best, I spend my working day sitting next to a VMS 6.0 Vax 6440. Cheers Geoff in Oz From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 12 01:43:21 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License In-Reply-To: References: <200112120432.fBC4WGH01552@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> > Isn't that licensed under the UCX pak? >> >> No, UCX is TCPIP. You need DVNETEND or DVNETEXT. >> >> Zane > >Oh. > I have to admit, VMS pretty much escapes me in general. Give me a >little time with most any unix and I can get around pretty OK, but >I've been trying off-and-on for a year to get my head around this stuff >and it just don't hunt. I'm still looking for that magical "first clue". > > Doc Well, you just stumbled across what's probably the most confusing part of VMS! Namely trying to figure out which license PAKs activate which networking bits :^) Dunno, I came to VMS from a strong UNIX background, and now I prefer VMS for the most part. It just clicked for me I guess. OTOH, maybe it's just my love of books getting the best of me :^) You can't beat the OpenVMS docset! What kind of problems are you having with VMS? Outside of comp.os.vms this is probably the best place to ask VMS related questions. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 12 10:39:06 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF95@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Geoff Roberts [mailto:geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au] > like anything other than VMS, though some of the file and > directory privs > are suggestive of Netware. Rather, some of the netware privs are suggestive of VMS. ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Dec 12 16:56:06 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF95@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001501c18360$2f776f20$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 3:09 AM Subject: RE: DECnet License > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Geoff Roberts [mailto:geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au] > > > like anything other than VMS, though some of the file and > > directory privs > > are suggestive of Netware. > > Rather, some of the netware privs are suggestive of VMS. ;) Either or, but probably a better description as I suspect VMS predates netware. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 17:08:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: DECnet License In-Reply-To: Re: DECnet License (Geoff Roberts) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF95@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <001501c18360$2f776f20$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <15383.58224.494319.805620@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > like anything other than VMS, though some of the file and > > > directory privs > > > are suggestive of Netware. > > > > Rather, some of the netware privs are suggestive of VMS. ;) > > Either or, but probably a better description as I suspect VMS predates > netware. By quite a while, yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 00:22:29 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <3C16E591.9E1CC646@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Borax? The laundry booster? Yes. Borax emulsifies grease. > What is Alconox? Alconox is a soap designed to clean laboratory equipment. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 00:34:02 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Re: Smoking around computers (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <3C16E591.9E1CC646@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15382.64090.414009.425750@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Alconox is a soap designed to clean laboratory equipment. It is WONDERFUL STUFF. Really incredible stuff. See http://www.alconox.com. Though it's not really targeted at individuals, you can buy it straight from their web site. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 01:20:08 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Re: Smoking around computers (Don Maslin) References: Message-ID: <15383.1320.934150.967978@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 11, Don Maslin wrote: > Yeh, probably as easy as training a cat! Training cats is actually rather easy. It's commonly thought to be difficult or impossible because most people try to train them using the same methods they use to train dogs...which fail miserably. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 06:30:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > I set them up with keyboard drawers whenever I can get them cheap, or they > > get donated (hint. HINT!) But training the office staff to shut the > > drawers when not in use isn't easy. > > Yeh, probably as easy as training a cat! Training cats is easy; herding them is something else (witness Jay's efforts to entice us to stay on-topic)! -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 12 10:37:12 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF94@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > On December 11, Don Maslin wrote: > > Yeh, probably as easy as training a cat! > Training cats is actually rather easy. It's commonly thought to be > difficult or impossible because most people try to train them using > the same methods they use to train dogs...which fail miserably. Ok, I give up -- how do you train a cat? :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Dec 12 11:01:49 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF94@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > > > On December 11, Don Maslin wrote: > > > Yeh, probably as easy as training a cat! [snipt] > > Ok, I give up -- how do you train a cat? :) Tie it to the tracks. Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Wed Dec 12 11:15:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF94@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001101c18330$953916e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've only had one cat (I prefer dogs, as it turns out.) but that one was completely toilet trained by the time she was 9 months old, which was the last time I saw her. We used one of those then-popular toilet training kits and it seems to have worked as advertised. That certainly dispells the myth that cats are totally untrainable. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: RE: Smoking around computers > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > > > On December 11, Don Maslin wrote: > > > Yeh, probably as easy as training a cat! > > > Training cats is actually rather easy. It's commonly thought to be > > difficult or impossible because most people try to train them using > > the same methods they use to train dogs...which fail miserably. > > Ok, I give up -- how do you train a cat? :) > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From dittman at dittman.net Wed Dec 12 11:54:27 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <001101c18330$953916e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Dec 12, 2001 10:15:22 AM Message-ID: <200112121754.fBCHsRi28069@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I've only had one cat (I prefer dogs, as it turns out.) but that one was > completely toilet trained by the time she was 9 months old, which was the last > time I saw her. We used one of those then-popular toilet training kits and it > seems to have worked as advertised. That certainly dispells the myth that cats > are totally untrainable. When I was growing up we had a cat that learned to use the toilet on its own. It couldn't flush, though. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 11:51:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Smoking around computers (Christopher Smith) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF94@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <15383.39200.474107.323139@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Training cats is actually rather easy. It's commonly thought to be > > difficult or impossible because most people try to train them using > > the same methods they use to train dogs...which fail miserably. > > Ok, I give up -- how do you train a cat? :) One important thing is not to piss them off. Most dogs seem to exist to please their owners, and will do pretty much anything for them. Cats are much less "cheap" about it, for lack fo a better term...it's much more of a peer-to-peer relationship, but letting them know who's in control is still important. One can "dominate" a dog by intimidation, but one generally cannot with cats. You must have their trust and their respect, otherwise all is lost. And yes, the water bottle trick does work, but overuse of that technique...or use of it before the aforementioned trust and respect are established...will likely prove counterproductive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Dec 12 11:23:19 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: >Ok, I give up -- how do you train a cat? :) Water spray bottle works wonders. 3 spritz later and one of my cats has stopped popping the hampster cage open and carrying the hampster around the house. Some people say tape works well to keep them off things (sticky side up), but both my cats seem to rather like it, and I find they stand on it padding at the tape purring happily. -c From dittman at dittman.net Wed Dec 12 11:52:53 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Dec 12, 2001 12:23:19 PM Message-ID: <200112121752.fBCHqsF28053@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >Ok, I give up -- how do you train a cat? :) > > Water spray bottle works wonders. 3 spritz later and one of my cats has > stopped popping the hampster cage open and carrying the hampster around > the house. This sounds interesting. I'm surprised the cat didn't kill the hamster playing with it. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 12 16:29:11 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <200112121752.fBCHqsF28053@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > This sounds interesting. I'm surprised the cat didn't kill the hamster > playing with it. Nah, when a cat's not hungry, it can be incredibly cruel. We have 2 cats - the aforementioned hellbitch and her first kitten. Rascal brought in a live deermouse one night and the 2 cats tortured that mouse for nearly 4 hours. They would pick it up & carry it without biting, bat it around with claws retracted, and let the mouse get nearly to cover before heading it off. I had some cracked ribs and a head-full of codeine, and couldn't catch the dern thing to put it out. When I did catch it after 4 hours, the mouse was exhausted, but I don't think it was seriously injured. That's the night Rascal earned the "hellbitch" title.... See ya later, Doc From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 12 18:06:20 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > This sounds interesting. I'm surprised the cat didn't kill the hamster > > playing with it. > > Nah, when a cat's not hungry, it can be incredibly cruel. It's not that they're cruel. A mouse to a well fed cat is nothing more than a self-propelled toy. :) g. From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Dec 12 13:35:44 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: >This sounds interesting. I'm surprised the cat didn't kill the hamster >playing with it. I think if I hadn't gotten to the cat fast enough, she would have... fortuantly, the cage makes a LOT of noise when the cat would pop it open, and after the 2nd time, I started using the water bottle. I can't blame her, I got her as a stray, so rodents were probably her main source of food (that and it seems Wendy's french fries since she will claw your eyes out to get to them). I just wish she would start catching the damn mice... its getting cold out, I don't want to have to keep pissing on the outside of the house to lower the mouse input (yes, that actually works, I realized that the spray I was using was simply fox pee, so I decided one day to try MY pee, and it works just as well, just doesn't last quite as long since it isn't cut with oil to help it stick... saves me the $10 a bottle, but I have to re-"spray" every few days instead of every week or so... side effect, my wife's flower bed has never looked better!) and now this has moved WAY off topic. -c From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 13:48:56 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: Re: Smoking around computers (Chris) References: Message-ID: <15383.46248.764076.258553@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Chris wrote: > catching the damn mice... its getting cold out, I don't want to have to > keep pissing on the outside of the house to lower the mouse input (yes, > that actually works, I realized that the spray I was using was simply fox > pee, so I decided one day to try MY pee, and it works just as well, just > doesn't last quite as long since it isn't cut with oil to help it > stick... saves me the $10 a bottle, but I have to re-"spray" every few > days instead of every week or so... side effect, my wife's flower bed has > never looked better!) Admit it, Chris...you just like peeing outside. ;) -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dittman at dittman.net Wed Dec 12 14:36:34 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Dec 12, 2001 02:35:44 PM Message-ID: <200112122036.fBCKaYF28488@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I can't blame her, I got her as a stray, so rodents were probably her > main source of food (that and it seems Wendy's french fries since she > will claw your eyes out to get to them)... My wife and I have a cat that we adopted as a kitten. One day we stopped by Wendy's on the way home and bought some dinner to go. I usually get a Wendy's double, and I had it on the kitchen table with the top bun off to add some ketchup. Quicker than a bolt of lightning, the kitten jumped on the table, grabbed the top slice of meat in her mouth, and ran for it. I caught her just before she made it off the table, but I did give her (and the rest of the cats) the slice she stole. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 12 14:37:36 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! ... I just wish she would start ! catching the damn mice... its getting cold out, I don't want ! to have to keep pissing on the outside of the house to lower ! the mouse input (yes, that actually works, I realized that ! the spray I was using was simply fox pee, so I decided one ! day to try MY pee, and it works just as well, just ! doesn't last quite as long since it isn't cut with oil to help it ! stick... saves me the $10 a bottle, but I have to re-"spray" ! every few days instead of every week or so... side effect, ! my wife's flower bed has never looked better!) What about just botteling it? And cut it with what ever oil they use too? ! and now this has moved WAY off topic. You could say that. Unless, someone figures out a computerized (like, using a Vax 9000?) tracking and pee-spraying system... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Dec 12 14:50:28 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011212205223.QOER4645.femail41.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> This is the wierdest thread I've ever seen on this list. Question, do you store the stuff or just walk backwards? Regards, Jeff In <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu>, on 12/12/01 at 03:37 PM, David Woyciesjes said: >! ... I just wish she would start >! catching the damn mice... its getting cold out, I don't want ! to have >to keep pissing on the outside of the house to lower ! the mouse input >(yes, that actually works, I realized that ! the spray I was using was >simply fox pee, so I decided one ! day to try MY pee, and it works just >as well, just >! doesn't last quite as long since it isn't cut with oil to help it ! >stick... saves me the $10 a bottle, but I have to re-"spray" ! every few >days instead of every week or so... side effect, ! my wife's flower bed >has never looked better!) >What about just botteling it? And cut it with what ever oil they use too? >! and now this has moved WAY off topic. >You could say that. Unless, someone figures out a computerized (like, >using a Vax 9000?) tracking and pee-spraying system... >--- David A Woyciesjes >--- C & IS Support Specialist >--- Yale University Press >--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu >--- (203) 432-0953 >--- ICQ # - 905818 -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 12 15:16:07 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > I can't blame her, I got her as a stray, so rodents were ! > probably her main source of food (that and it seems ! > Wendy's french fries since she will claw your eyes out ! > to get to them)... ! ! My wife and I have a cat that we adopted as a kitten. One ! day we stopped by Wendy's on the way home and bought some ! dinner to go. I usually get a Wendy's double, and I had it ! on the kitchen table with the top bun off to add some ! ketchup. Quicker than a bolt of lightning, the kitten ! jumped on the table, grabbed the top slice of meat in her ! mouth, and ran for it. I caught her just before she made ! it off the table, but I did give her (and the rest of the ! cats) the slice she stole. ! -- ! Eric Dittman Just don't leave creamed corn out for my Isabelle. She'll drink all the juice right down... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 12 16:55:33 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:49 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: > > Just don't leave creamed corn out for my Isabelle. She'll drink all > the juice right down... > My cat Promethus will take your face off for the chance at a few Chilli Cheese Fritos... g. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Dec 12 16:18:06 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers In-Reply-To: ; from geneb@deltasoft.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:55:33PM -0800 References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011212161806.C7921903@uiuc.edu> Gene Buckle said: > > > > Just don't leave creamed corn out for my Isabelle. She'll drink all > > the juice right down... > > > My cat Promethus will take your face off for the chance at a few Chilli > Cheese Fritos... one of my parent's cats likes lettuce. it's both weird and funny, as a cat's teeth aren't exactly designed to process broad-leafed vegtables. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/78223e85/attachment.bin From jss at subatomix.com Wed Dec 12 00:33:07 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <20011212014544.DKVO23490.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20011212001049.D72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> One of the coolest moments in my life was when I met, entirely by chance, an old lady at the local hospital that was one of the early Real Programmers. She was sharing a double-bed room with my girlfriend's grandmother. I believe she said she had worked with the ENIAC, but I am not certain. She said that when she retired, video display terminals were just beginning to supplant printing terminals. There was a whole conversation in there somewhere, but unfortunately it has been forgotten in the sands of time. Nevertheless, it was a truly spiritual experience. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 03:55:12 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Re: RIP: Betty Holberton (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <20011212014544.DKVO23490.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <20011212001049.D72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15383.10624.355157.504724@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > One of the coolest moments in my life was when I met, entirely by chance, > an old lady at the local hospital that was one of the early Real > Programmers. She was sharing a double-bed room with my girlfriend's > grandmother. > > I believe she said she had worked with the ENIAC, but I am not certain. > She said that when she retired, video display terminals were just > beginning to supplant printing terminals. There was a whole conversation > in there somewhere, but unfortunately it has been forgotten in the sands > of time. > > Nevertheless, it was a truly spiritual experience. WOW...I would love to have talked with her for an hour or two. Or three. Maybe four. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From marvin at rain.org Wed Dec 12 09:28:48 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton References: <20011212014544.DKVO23490.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <20011212001049.D72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <15383.10624.355157.504724@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C1777B0.2165F61B@rain.org> I was at an Orienteering meet this past weekend and got to talking with a woman I met a year or two ago. Turns out she was also a programmer and I think she said she had also worked with the Eniac. She is coming up either today or tomorrow. Seems like a good time to "cross examine" her :). I have found several people who had worked on the older computers, usually after they have died :(. Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 12, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > One of the coolest moments in my life was when I met, entirely by chance, > > an old lady at the local hospital that was one of the early Real > > Programmers. She was sharing a double-bed room with my girlfriend's > > grandmother. > > > > I believe she said she had worked with the ENIAC, but I am not certain. > > She said that when she retired, video display terminals were just > > beginning to supplant printing terminals. There was a whole conversation > > in there somewhere, but unfortunately it has been forgotten in the sands > > of time. > > > > Nevertheless, it was a truly spiritual experience. > > WOW...I would love to have talked with her for an hour or two. Or > three. Maybe four. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 17:11:39 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Re: RIP: Betty Holberton (Marvin Johnston) References: <20011212014544.DKVO23490.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <20011212001049.D72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <15383.10624.355157.504724@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C1777B0.2165F61B@rain.org> Message-ID: <15383.58411.894286.80558@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I was at an Orienteering meet this past weekend and got to talking with > a woman I met a year or two ago. Turns out she was also a programmer and > I think she said she had also worked with the Eniac. She is coming up > either today or tomorrow. Seems like a good time to "cross examine" her > :). I have found several people who had worked on the older computers, > usually after they have died :(. Befriend this person while she's still around, man! I'll be she's got GREAT stories to tell! 8-) It wouldn't hurt to thank her for her efforts too, at the risk of sounding weird...I, for one, would likely have a very boring life if it weren't for the work of those early pioneers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 06:20:08 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Look to /. > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. She coined "debug"; the the use of the word "bug" to denote a flaw in a design was in common use in Edison's time; some claim it was coined by early telegraphers. -dq From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Dec 12 07:01:11 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > Look to /. > > > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > > She coined "debug"; the the use of the word "bug" to denote > a flaw in a design was in common use in Edison's time; some > claim it was coined by early telegraphers. > I, in fact have a telegraphy text from about 1880 that specifically uses the word 'bug' to mean a fault or defect in the circuitry. I had a copy of the page up on my old website. When I get the book back out of storage in late February I can give a title and publisher. This is in the same box with the 'Century Magazine' bound set that has a (sort of) flying steam-powered airplane designed and built by Hiram Maxim in England in 1892... the same Maxim who developed the Maxim machine gun, and whose son, Hiram P. Maxim, founded the American Radio Relay League. But I digress... Cheers John From donm at cts.com Wed Dec 12 13:24:16 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > Look to /. > > > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > > She coined "debug"; the the use of the word "bug" to denote > a flaw in a design was in common use in Edison's time; some > claim it was coined by early telegraphers. > > -dq My recollection from one of her presentations some years ago was that she claimed to have found the first computer bug in the Eniac - a moth IIRC - and debugged it by removing said moth. She was a pretty level headed and down to earth lady. - don From pat at purdueriots.com Wed Dec 12 18:22:31 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Terminal Server Message-ID: I just picked up an Encore Corp. Annex Terminal server from my university's salvage. It seems to power up ok and I can get it to have a link to my network. I can even set an ip address to it. However I can't ping it. It seems to want to net boot (as far as i can tell). Anyone have the boot software for these or have a resource to point me towards? The manufacturer's site seems to be of no help, and neither is google. Here's the specifics: Encore Computer Corp. Annex Model # ANN-01 (Cant really read first char, can be different) >From starting it with the switch in 'diag mode' i can get it to spit out the following: Board ID 11 - Serial Number 87 REV ROM: Maj Rev 3 Min Rev 1 ROM Software Rev # 0305 Thanks to anyone that has any ideas. -- Pat From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 12 18:28:28 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Emerald Systems digital cassette drive Message-ID: Ok, now I found an Emerald Systems digital cassette drive. This is an internal drive and has its own interface card. However, I don't have a driver disk or manual for this one either. Does anyone have the drivers or a manual? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 12 18:34:16 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need Xpress Librarian software Message-ID: Ok, after a quick web search, it looks like I may be able to use a program called Xpress Librarian to access this drive. Anybody got it? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 12 18:40:20 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need Xpress Librarian software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Never mind. Xpress Librarian most likely only works on their contemporary drives. I need the proprietary software that originally came with this drive, or some other software that will work with it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From CLeyson at aol.com Wed Dec 12 20:26:23 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Nanoseconds per foot (RE: RIP: Betty Holberton) Message-ID: For coax or twisted pair the delay per unit length is given by:- Delay (Secs/unit length) = Root( (C/unit length)*(L/unit length) ) Example: For RG58-U coax, C=100pF/m and L=250nH/m Delay = root(250E-9*100E-12) = 5E-9 sec/m or 5ns/m A pulse will travel 66% slower in RG-58 cable than free space. If anyone needs to lay out high speed PCB's the following book is highly recommended: "High Speed Digital Design - A Handbook of Black Magic" Howard W Johnson and Martin Graham ISBN 0-13-395724-1 Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/79b80571/attachment.html From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 12 18:20:59 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Free Stuff fo pickup in SF bay area Message-ID: 2 Tektronix 4051 manual 1 Tektronix 4051 ROM expansion unit (W binary loader ROM and GPIO) 1 4051 ROM expansion unit manual 1 Morrow MicroDecision computer W/manuals and disks 1 DEC Alpha 2100 4 misc HP700 HPPA series (720,735) Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Dec 12 18:00:04 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Hardrive.sys for HardCard ? Message-ID: <200112130000.fBD008447901@ns2.ezwind.net> > Thanks but Arlen Michaels send me the files. They were for a 40 Mb hard >card but the driver (Plusdrv.sys) seems to work fine. Any chance you can forward those drivers my way? I have a 40mb HardCard that I would like to see if I can get working. Thanks -chris From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Dec 12 15:53:40 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Linus's first announcement Message-ID: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1991Oct5.054106.4647%40klaava.Helsinki .FI This post is over 10 years old so it's a classic. Note the line that goes "Hurd will be out in a year (or two, or next month, who knows)[...]" and giggle. -Philip From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Dec 12 17:03:26 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Hardrive.sys for HardCard ? In-Reply-To: <3C1676BB.AAFC3C69@ccp.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20011211142817.007cc510@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011212180326.007b9c20@mailhost.intellistar.net> Gary, Thanks but Arlen Michaels send me the files. They were for a 40 Mb hard card but the driver (Plusdrv.sys) seems to work fine. Joe At 03:12 PM 12/11/01 -0600, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> Anybody know where I can download a copy of "hardrive.sys" for a 105Mb hard >> card? >> >> Joe > > >I think I have a copy of the software with mine . . . gotta look first. >I know I have 5 1/4 media, and there shouold be 3.5 as well. > >Gary HIldebrand > From spedraja at ono.com Wed Dec 12 17:30:55 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Hardrive.sys for HardCard ? Message-ID: <024b01c18365$0bc3c740$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> I'll agree a lot to obtain one copy of this driver because I have another Hardcard of 105 Mb in my IBM XT-286 and it appears to have some working problems with its actual driver. Thanks in advance and Greetings Sergio -----Mensaje original----- De: Joe Para: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Fecha: jueves, 13 de diciembre de 2001 0:21 Asunto: Re: Hardrive.sys for HardCard ? >Gary, > > Thanks but Arlen Michaels send me the files. They were for a 40 Mb hard >card but the driver (Plusdrv.sys) seems to work fine. > > Joe > >At 03:12 PM 12/11/01 -0600, you wrote: >>Joe wrote: >>> >>> Anybody know where I can download a copy of "hardrive.sys" for a 105Mb hard >>> card? >>> >>> Joe >> >> >>I think I have a copy of the software with mine . . . gotta look first. >>I know I have 5 1/4 media, and there shouold be 3.5 as well. >> >>Gary HIldebrand >> > From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 12 15:33:40 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: FAQS.ORG needs funding! Message-ID: Please read this message: http://www.faqs.org/save_faqs-org.html I don't know how many of you use faqs.org to get FAQs (I don't myself) but I happened to run by this message and thought I would pass it along. They're in need of funding as they've lost their previous sponsorship. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Dec 12 15:27:19 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011212214730.VIIU20460.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I once found a chunky roach jamming an injet's paper handler. Yes, the smokeable kind of roach. I've seen equipment literally choked with little roaches. They eat the insulation on wireing. Really gross to open a monitor that is crawling with bugs. I'm not one of those who can comfortably hold a roach or spider in thier hand. Or some of the pleasant surprises such as buying (not another!) ATR8000 to discover later that it had a Copower 88 and 256k of ram onboard. Or buying (not another!) 1050 disk drive to discover later it has a Super Archiver with Bitwriter installed. Or buying a Rana 1000 disk drive to discover that it Actually Works! A couple of years ago while working at my bench I hear a whoop from the sales floor and in rushes 'Bubba' Mac - another tech. I follow him to the bench behind the counter and see a desktop machine, i'ts skins laying next to it. Inside, near the power supply was a beautiful, full-grown, colorful, desicated butterfly. The machine hadn't been opened in the five years it had been owned. Any other spiritual (or just plain interesting) stuff found inside a computer? In , on 12/10/01 at 04:52 PM, Sellam Ismail said: >On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a >> > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. >> > >> > I understand they're high in protein. Maybe this person ate them over >> > their keyboard like others eat snacks? :) >> >> If they weren't eating snacks before they ate the marijuana seeds, they >> certainly were afterwards. :-P >Sounds like this comes from someone who knows? >:) >Just busting your chops. There's nothing wrong with smoking something >that Mother Nature put on Earth. Shame on those that think otherwise. >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 12 15:28:02 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: tektronix phaser Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > I have a tektronix phaser 340 (which I think is rather less > then 10 years > old, but I'm not certain...) that has started saying "Fault > 05,000.42:8178". > I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with these > printers and/or knows > where I can get a fault code reference for them, because I > really don't want > to pay xerox to fix my printer. I have a feeling this is > something pretty > simple -- the printer was off for a while (like about 3 > months) and then just > started doing this last night. any help would be much appreciated. Well, I had some exposure to a Phaser III, but it's been a while, and I don't think I've ever seen anything like the above message. I suppose you've gone through the whole "check the cables, make sure nothing's stuck, check for grilled cheese in the ink-wells" thing? (The one I used, at least, was a thermal transfer printer. Very nice.) I might also suggest removing the cables, and if there's a NIC, pulling it to see if that's the fault location. Otherwise, it's unfortunate that most people/institutions don't have the good taste to purchase such printers ;) I'd have liked to have more exposure to them. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Dec 12 16:24:35 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: tektronix phaser In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>; from csmith@amdocs.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:28:02PM -0600 References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011212162435.D7921903@uiuc.edu> Christopher Smith said: > > I suppose you've gone through the whole "check the cables, make sure > nothing's stuck, check for grilled cheese in the ink-wells" thing? (The one > I used, at least, was a thermal transfer printer. Very nice.) I've done some of that, I'm planning on doing more in the next day or so. This one, too, is a thermal-transfer printer...it's one that uses the wax ink blocks. it produces beautiful, high-gloss prints when it's actually working... > Otherwise, it's unfortunate that most people/institutions don't have the > good taste to purchase such printers ;) I'd have liked to have more > exposure to them. I agree...it's a great print process. I think it has much nicer looking output then color laser, personally...more photo-like with the glossiness and all :) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/3f52d3c3/attachment.bin From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 16:32:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: tektronix phaser In-Reply-To: Re: tektronix phaser (Dan Wright) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <20011212162435.D7921903@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <15383.56083.863783.234447@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Dan Wright wrote: > I agree...it's a great print process. I think it has much nicer looking > output then color laser, personally...more photo-like with the glossiness and > all :) It's targeted at an entirely different market than color lasers, so that's not really a valid comparison. But yes, the Phaser III output is *really* impressive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 12 15:22:27 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: Does anyone have a manual, or know how to operate, an Everex digital cassette drive? The one I have is all black, and has a DC-37 connector on the back that I assume connects to an old-style IBM PC drive interface. If this is the case, I assume I still need drivers to run this thing? And maybe some operating software? Does anyone know what the hell I'm talking about? Please help if you can. Many brownie points await ye. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 15:53:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B0A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Does anyone have a manual, or know how to operate, an Everex digital > cassette drive? > > The one I have is all black, and has a DC-37 connector on the back that I > assume connects to an old-style IBM PC drive interface. If this is the > case, I assume I still need drivers to run this thing? And maybe some > operating software? An original IBM PC with the BASIC ROMs should be able to load from cassette using LOAD and save using SAVE, shouldn't it? ? -dq From foo at siconic.com Wed Dec 12 16:44:13 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B0A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Does anyone have a manual, or know how to operate, an Everex digital > > cassette drive? > > > > The one I have is all black, and has a DC-37 connector on the back that I > > assume connects to an old-style IBM PC drive interface. If this is the > > case, I assume I still need drivers to run this thing? And maybe some > > operating software? > > An original IBM PC with the BASIC ROMs should be able to load > from cassette using LOAD and save using SAVE, shouldn't it? Maybe, but doubtful. This was more of a tape backup device. It uses DIGITAL cassettes. If you've never seen one, they have a square notch just off the center of the top of the cassette, and they have two slide tabs to turn write-protection on/off. Otherwise, it looks just like a regular analog cassette tape. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 12 18:34:58 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B0A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Does anyone have a manual, or know how to operate, an Everex digital > > cassette drive? > > The one I have is all black, and has a DC-37 connector on the back that I > > assume connects to an old-style IBM PC drive interface. If this is the > > case, I assume I still need drivers to run this thing? And maybe some > > operating software? On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > An original IBM PC with the BASIC ROMs should be able to load > from cassette using LOAD and save using SAVE, shouldn't it? Certainly not from THAT tape drive! The PC (5150) tape interface (DIN-5 next to keyboard connector), is an AUDIO interface, not digital, and not DC-37 (floppy drive connector)! Although IBM (U.S.) never sold a cable for connecting, the pinout is close enough to that of the TRS-80 to be able to use Radio Shacks cable. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 12 18:36:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 12, 1 04:34:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 612 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/1aea3710/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 12 19:26:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The PC (5150) tape interface (DIN-5 next to keyboard connector), is an > > AUDIO interface, not digital, and not DC-37 (floppy drive connector)! > > Although IBM (U.S.) never sold a cable for connecting, the pinout is close > > enough to that of the TRS-80 to be able to use Radio Shacks cable. On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > 'close enough' == 'identical' :-) True. For an example of 'close enough' != 'identical' : IIRC, The tech reference section on the joystick board has a drawing of the joystick from the Radio Shack Coco. BUT, ... there is a slight difference in whether the "far" side of the pots are floating v tied together. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 12 16:56:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Dec 12, 1 01:22:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 599 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/b2462c35/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed Dec 12 17:13:24 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive References: Message-ID: <3C17E494.567677CE@rain.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Does anyone have a manual, or know how to operate, an Everex digital > cassette drive? Sounds pretty much like the one I have here. I don't *think* I received any drivers with it. Have you tried driverguide.com? From foo at siconic.com Wed Dec 12 18:47:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: <3C17E494.567677CE@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Sounds pretty much like the one I have here. I don't *think* I > received any drivers with it. Have you tried driverguide.com? I just checked there but nothing turned up. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 12 16:41:11 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: UberTechnoid@home.com [mailto:UberTechnoid@home.com] > I recall having backup disks of the cpt provided packages. > I'll look and > see if the disks are still where I think they are. Next time > I'm at my > storage place. > BTW The CPT box I saw ran CP/M 2.2? Unfortunately, I think this one is MS-DOS. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Dec 12 15:13:40 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF63@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011212211426.SMDV29545.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I recall having backup disks of the cpt provided packages. I'll look and see if the disks are still where I think they are. Next time I'm at my storage place. BTW The CPT box I saw ran CP/M 2.2? Regards, Jeff In <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF63@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, on 12/09/01 at 02:59 PM, Christopher Smith said: >Hi everybody, >I remember somebody mentioning the CPT 9000 on this list recently. >Since I just happen to be working on one, I thought I'd post this >question here. >Does anyone know where I can get some of the original software that might >take advantage of the full screen-height? I have a copy of ventura >publisher that was pre-installed, but I assume that its CPT9000 driver is >corrupt. It works with the Herc ega driver, but with the CPT9000 driver, >I just get some strange text-mode blocks. >I also wonder whether anyone's tried Minix on it, and whether that might >address the whole monitor? >Regards, >Chris >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, IL >/usr/bin/perl -e ' >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Dec 12 14:43:09 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: OT: tektronix phaser Message-ID: <20011212144309.G7739318@uiuc.edu> I have a tektronix phaser 340 (which I think is rather less then 10 years old, but I'm not certain...) that has started saying "Fault 05,000.42:8178". I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with these printers and/or knows where I can get a fault code reference for them, because I really don't want to pay xerox to fix my printer. I have a feeling this is something pretty simple -- the printer was off for a while (like about 3 months) and then just started doing this last night. any help would be much appreciated. Thanks, Dan - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/8dbf30ac/attachment.bin From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Dec 12 16:58:40 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: OT: tektronix phaser In-Reply-To: <20011212144309.G7739318@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011212175840.007cb100@mailhost.intellistar.net> A friend of mine has an old Phaser III and he's called Tektronix directly and they've been helpfull about fixing problems and supplying updated SW drivers and the like. Joe At 02:43 PM 12/12/01 -0600, you wrote: >I have a tektronix phaser 340 (which I think is rather less then 10 years >old, but I'm not certain...) that has started saying "Fault 05,000.42:8178". >I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with these printers and/or knows >where I can get a fault code reference for them, because I really don't want >to pay xerox to fix my printer. I have a feeling this is something pretty >simple -- the printer was off for a while (like about 3 months) and then just >started doing this last night. any help would be much appreciated. > >Thanks, > >Dan > >- Dan Wright >(dtwright@uiuc.edu) >(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > >-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- >``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > >Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\Attach\OT tektronix phaser" > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Dec 12 20:10:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: OT: tektronix phaser References: <3.0.6.32.20011212175840.007cb100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <005001c1837b$5197bf40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> These things have been around for well over a decade, so they're not OT. Pretty decent technology for the late '80's. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:58 PM Subject: Re: OT: tektronix phaser > A friend of mine has an old Phaser III and he's called Tektronix directly > and they've been helpfull about fixing problems and supplying updated SW > drivers and the like. > > Joe > > At 02:43 PM 12/12/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I have a tektronix phaser 340 (which I think is rather less then 10 years > >old, but I'm not certain...) that has started saying "Fault 05,000.42:8178". > >I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with these printers and/or knows > >where I can get a fault code reference for them, because I really don't want > >to pay xerox to fix my printer. I have a feeling this is something pretty > >simple -- the printer was off for a while (like about 3 months) and then just > >started doing this last night. any help would be much appreciated. > > > >Thanks, > > > >Dan > > > >- Dan Wright > >(dtwright@uiuc.edu) > >(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > > >-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > >``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\Attach\OT tektronix phaser" > > > > From at258 at osfn.org Wed Dec 12 14:41:31 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 6000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You know, we might havew a spare terminal. I'd have to look. I'm pretty sure we might have the disks somewhere, too, but it would take some serious digging and we'd have to get our 6000 up and run ning. Rather a nice little system, isn't it? On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Owen Robertson wrote: > I am very happy today - I'm finally getting a TRS-80 Model 6000! Anyway I > was wondering if anyone has any software for it (it runs Xenix, which it > has), or the hardware manual, as I am only getting the Xenix manuals. And if > anyone has one of those neat little TRS-80 DT-1 terminals for it, I'd love > that. > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From univac2 at earthlink.net Wed Dec 12 11:54:55 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Availible Message-ID: I found somebody who has a Model I with some other peripheral things for sale. He has an X-10 controller, hi-resolution joystick interface, maybe some other things too. Whoever's interested, email me off-list and I'll give you his phone number (he's not on the internet). Thanks, Owen From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 13:34:55 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: RE: RIP: Betty Holberton (Don Maslin) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15383.45407.313919.742673@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Don Maslin wrote: > > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > > > > She coined "debug"; the the use of the word "bug" to denote > > a flaw in a design was in common use in Edison's time; some > > claim it was coined by early telegraphers. > > My recollection from one of her presentations some years ago was that > she claimed to have found the first computer bug in the Eniac - a moth > IIRC - and debugged it by removing said moth. > > She was a pretty level headed and down to earth lady. ...in spite of the whole COBOL thing. 8-| -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 12 10:27:27 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <15382.48224.734355.233306@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Look to /. > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > Speaking of whom, do you know where I could obtain a video tape of the talks she used to give? I'm especially interested in the one where she related the anecdote about her needing a wire a nanosecond (pico?) long. g. From donm at cts.com Wed Dec 12 13:08:26 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > Look to /. > > > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > > > > Speaking of whom, do you know where I could obtain a video tape of the > talks she used to give? I'm especially interested in the one where she > related the anecdote about her needing a wire a nanosecond (pico?) long. > > g. > She used to pass them out in her presentations, Gene. They were approximately 12" long. - don From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 12 15:00:52 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > Look to /. > > > > > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > > > > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > > > > > > > Speaking of whom, do you know where I could obtain a video tape of the > > talks she used to give? I'm especially interested in the one where she > > related the anecdote about her needing a wire a nanosecond (pico?) long. > > > > g. > > > > She used to pass them out in her presentations, Gene. They were > approximately 12" long. > - don If memory serves, it was 11", but that's beside the point. :) I'm after a tape of her presentation. :) g. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Dec 12 13:45:14 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212114422.034c0ca0@mail.zipcon.net> 12 inch copper wire IIRC for MS Packet of cracked pepper for NS packet of salt for FemtopSecond IIRC.... At 11:08 AM 12/12/01 -0800, you wrote: >On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > Look to /. > > > > > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > > > > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > > > > > > > Speaking of whom, do you know where I could obtain a video tape of the > > talks she used to give? I'm especially interested in the one where she > > related the anecdote about her needing a wire a nanosecond (pico?) long. > > > > g. > > > >She used to pass them out in her presentations, Gene. They were >approximately 12" long. > - don From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 13:47:30 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:50 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Re: RIP: Betty Holberton (Geoff Reed) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212114422.034c0ca0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <15383.46162.913914.372544@phaduka.neurotica.com> 12 inches for a thousandth of a second sounds a little off...though I'm too lazy to do the math... -Dave On December 12, Geoff Reed wrote: > 12 inch copper wire IIRC for MS > > Packet of cracked pepper for NS > > packet of salt for FemtopSecond > > IIRC.... > > At 11:08 AM 12/12/01 -0800, you wrote: > > > >On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > > > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > > Look to /. > > > > > > > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > > > > > > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of whom, do you know where I could obtain a video tape of the > > > talks she used to give? I'm especially interested in the one where she > > > related the anecdote about her needing a wire a nanosecond (pico?) long. > > > > > > g. > > > > > > >She used to pass them out in her presentations, Gene. They were > >approximately 12" long. > > - don > > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 12 15:19:40 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <15383.46162.913914.372544@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 12, 2001 02:47:30 pm" Message-ID: <200112122119.NAA09552@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > 12 inches for a thousandth of a second sounds a little off...though > I'm too lazy to do the math... Right. The speed of light is 30 cm/ns. Eric From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 16:09:40 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <200112122119.NAA09552@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > > 12 inches for a thousandth of a second sounds a little off...though > > I'm too lazy to do the math... > > Right. The speed of light is 30 cm/ns. Or 1.79 X 10^12 furlongs per fortnight. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 15:57:53 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: nanoseconds and Grace Hopper (was Re: RIP: Betty Holberton) In-Reply-To: <15383.46162.913914.372544@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011212215753.11349.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > > 12 inches for a thousandth of a second sounds a little off...though > I'm too lazy to do the math... It is... by about 10E03... light goes about 30cm in 1 ns, or about 12", depending on medium (faster as photons in a vacuum than electrons down an insulated wire). Somebody wrote: > > 12 inch copper wire IIRC for MS > > > > [R. Adm Grace Hopper]... needing a wire a nanosecond (pico?) > > > > long. > > > > > >She used to pass them out in her presentations, Gene. They were > > >approximately 12" long. > > > - don I was supposed to get an official DECUS nanosecond of Etherhose signed (stamped) by her for making a presentation at a symposium but they never sent me one. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 12 11:41:13 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <15382.48224.734355.233306@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 11, 2001 09:09:36 pm" Message-ID: <200112121741.JAA05362@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > On December 11, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Look to /. > > > > This is one whom coined the bug and debugging I think. :-) > > If you're talking about the terms, that was Rr. Adm. Grace Hopper. Not to disparage the Admiral, but I'm fairly sure the term "bug" referring to problems with a mechanism was in general use well before electronic computers existed. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 11:53:47 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Re: RIP: Betty Holberton (Eric J. Korpela) References: <15382.48224.734355.233306@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200112121741.JAA05362@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <15383.39339.714259.309024@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > Not to disparage the Admiral, but I'm fairly sure the term "bug" referring > to problems with a mechanism was in general use well before electronic > computers existed. Most literature that I've seen gives Hopper that distinction...however John Lawson mentioned a book that seems to prove otherwise. Scans of that would be very cool to have. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Dec 12 14:03:24 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton Message-ID: If the speed of an electron in a wire is equal to the speed of light (IIRC, it's slower than light), then an electron will travel about 11.80 inches in one nanosecond, which is the point Hooper was trying to illustrate. -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Reed [mailto:geoffr@zipcon.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:45 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: RIP: Betty Holberton 12 inch copper wire IIRC for MS From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 12 15:26:53 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: from "Feldman, Robert" at "Dec 12, 2001 01:03:24 pm" Message-ID: <200112122126.NAA09713@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > If the speed of an electron in a wire is equal to the speed of light (IIRC, > it's slower than light), then an electron will travel about 11.80 inches in > one nanosecond, which is the point Hooper was trying to illustrate. It's the electric field that propogates, moving electrons are a side effect. The average speed free electrons in wire is such that they essentially never get from one end to the other. Eric From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 16:02:29 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > If the speed of an electron in a wire is equal to the speed of light (IIRC, > it's slower than light), then an electron will travel about 11.80 inches in > one nanosecond, which is the point Hooper was trying to illustrate. I was always of the impression that the electrons themselves move slower, but the propogation of waves in the magnetic field of a stream of moving electrons was 2/3 the speed of light (roughly)? Peace... Sridhar From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 12 17:09:38 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: from Boatman on the River of Suck at "Dec 12, 2001 05:02:29 pm" Message-ID: <200112122309.PAA11686@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I was always of the impression that the electrons themselves move slower, > but the propogation of waves in the magnetic field of a stream of moving > electrons was 2/3 the speed of light (roughly)? The actual propogation velocity depends upon the geometry of the situation. In some situations (like in coaxial cable, a well analyzed PC board, a well modeled chip) the propogation velocity can be well determined. In a random wire among a tangle of others you take your chances. 1/3-2/3c is usual. Lower and higher velocities are possible. Electrons are very much (billions of times) slower. Calculating the average speed of an electron is easy and is left as an excercise for the reader, as is explaining why, for a given current, electrons in a resistor generally travel faster than electrons in a wire. Eric From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Wed Dec 12 17:12:25 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Nanoseconds per foot (RE: RIP: Betty Holberton) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200112122312.MAA17127@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Boatman on the River of Suck : > I was always of the impression that the electrons themselves move slower, > but the propogation of waves in the magnetic field of a stream of moving > electrons was 2/3 the speed of light (roughly)? It depends on the geometry of the conductors involved; the more inductance and capacitance, the slower the signal travels. I seem to remember hearing a figure of about 1/3 c for typical coax or twisted pair arrangements. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 14:20:49 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B08@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > My recollection from one of her presentations some years ago was that > > she claimed to have found the first computer bug in the Eniac - a moth > > IIRC - and debugged it by removing said moth. > > > > She was a pretty level headed and down to earth lady. > > ...in spite of the whole COBOL thing. 8-| Crass Obnoxious Bullsh*t- Oriented Language -dq From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Dec 12 16:38:39 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <15383.46162.913914.372544@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212114422.034c0ca0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212143533.02465ae0@mcmanis.com> > 12 inches for a thousandth of a second sounds a little off...though >I'm too lazy to do the math... 12" for one nanosecond. Not a quickie! You know, 300,000,000 m/sec and one billionth is .3 meters. Sorry about the Dr. Pepper in the keyboard. --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 16:55:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B0C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > If the speed of an electron in a wire is equal to the speed of light (IIRC, > > it's slower than light), then an electron will travel about 11.80 inches in > > one nanosecond, which is the point Hooper was trying to illustrate. > > It's the electric field that propogates, moving electrons are a side effect. > The average speed free electrons in wire is such that they essentially never > get from one end to the other. Wait a doggone minute, I know that's not right, I distinctly recall seeing a film in school of a wire as a pipe and ball- bearings as electrons... they go in one end, they come out the other... ...and they're blue. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 12 20:29:00 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:53:47 -0500 . <15383.39339.714259.309024@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: In message <15383.39339.714259.309024@phaduka.neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writ es: >On December 12, Eric J. Korpela wrote: >> Not to disparage the Admiral, but I'm fairly sure the term "bug" referring >> to problems with a mechanism was in general use well before electronic >> computers existed. > > Most literature that I've seen gives Hopper that distinction...however >John Lawson mentioned a book that seems to prove otherwise. Scans of >that would be very cool to have. The basis of the attribution comes from a incedent where she was tracing a fault in the Harvard Mark I and found a moth in the contacts of a relay. She taped the moth into her lab notebook, and this moth is often cited as the first "bug" in a computer. However, as has been pointed out, the term was in use before that and I'd be surprised if she was unaware of it. It's always appeared to me that a number of writers have taken the event as a defining one rather than a fun geeky annicdote where she was having a good giggle at the fact that this bug was a real bug. And of course, a story like that gets passed on from writer to writer and the first interpretation achieves the status of fact. Brian L. Stuart From jss at subatomix.com Wed Dec 12 00:43:22 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <20011212024519.ECCA27710.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20011212000008.X72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Blatent easy way out is emulate that 11/70 on athlon XP 1900+. :-) > Smack me if you dare. :-) That would probably be his cheapest way to attain the speed he wants. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 01:39:21 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <20011212000008.X72475-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > Blatent easy way out is emulate that 11/70 on athlon XP 1900+. :-) > > Smack me if you dare. :-) > > That would probably be his cheapest way to attain the speed he wants. > > And exactly how would you speak to UNIBUS? Peace... SRidhar From jss at subatomix.com Wed Dec 12 11:06:08 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011212105402.G73604-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > Blatent easy way out is emulate that 11/70 on athlon XP 1900+. :-) > > > Smack me if you dare. :-) > > > > That would probably be his cheapest way to attain the speed he wants. > > > > > > And exactly how would you speak to UNIBUS? Well, the processor would be attached to support hardware, and the support hardware would be attached to a UNIBUS connector. There's nothing that says this thing has to be PC-compatible. Are you wanting this to go in big, hex-width cards like old UNIBUS cards, or will you be defining a new form factor, connector (compact UNIBUS?), backplane, and card mounting system for your new UNIBUS (UNewBUS?)? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 13:11:48 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <20011212105402.G73604-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > > > Blatent easy way out is emulate that 11/70 on athlon XP 1900+. :-) > > > > Smack me if you dare. :-) > > > > > > That would probably be his cheapest way to attain the speed he wants. > > > > > > > > > > And exactly how would you speak to UNIBUS? > > Well, the processor would be attached to support hardware, and the support > hardware would be attached to a UNIBUS connector. There's nothing that > says this thing has to be PC-compatible. Yes, but would it be possible to have a similar relationship between processor speed and I/O bandwidth as in the old systems? > Are you wanting this to go in big, hex-width cards like old UNIBUS cards, > or will you be defining a new form factor, connector (compact UNIBUS?), > backplane, and card mounting system for your new UNIBUS (UNewBUS?)? Old style. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 13:22:13 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Re: Prints for an 11/70 (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <20011212105402.G73604-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15383.44645.174002.831019@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > Are you wanting this to go in big, hex-width cards like old UNIBUS cards, > > or will you be defining a new form factor, connector (compact UNIBUS?), > > backplane, and card mounting system for your new UNIBUS (UNewBUS?)? > > Old style. Cool. Cards that you can actually FIT SOME COMPONENTS ON. What a concept. That's the only thing I don't like about sbus. You can fill up an sbus card with three good-sized chips. Ridiculous. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Dec 12 13:43:27 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <15383.44645.174002.831019@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:22:13PM -0500 References: <20011212105402.G73604-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <15383.44645.174002.831019@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011212134326.F7739318@uiuc.edu> Dave McGuire said: > > That's the only thing I don't like about sbus. You can fill up an > sbus card with three good-sized chips. Ridiculous. that, and the connectors are evil... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/b34661ed/attachment.bin From pat at purdueriots.com Wed Dec 12 16:35:49 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > Blatent easy way out is emulate that 11/70 on athlon XP 1900+. :-) > > > Smack me if you dare. :-) > > > > That would probably be his cheapest way to attain the speed he wants. > > > > > > And exactly how would you speak to UNIBUS? > > Peace... SRidhar > How would you talk to unibus without the 300 or more wait states that would make the 1G processor speed useless anyways? Unless you can hook real IO devices up to the processor that are of *reasonable* speed, all you have is a 'souped up adding machine' (to quote _Colossus:_ _The_Forbin_Project) -- Pat From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 16:20:11 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: Message-ID: <3C17D81B.50A45268@jetnet.ab.ca> Pat Finnegan wrote: > How would you talk to unibus without the 300 or more wait states that > would make the 1G processor speed useless anyways? Unless you can hook > real IO devices up to the processor that are of *reasonable* speed, all > you have is a 'souped up adding machine' (to quote _Colossus:_ > _The_Forbin_Project) Yet most I/O of that era was still TTL, something you can stick in the same FPGA as the processer. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 17:21:12 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > > > Blatent easy way out is emulate that 11/70 on athlon XP 1900+. :-) > > > > Smack me if you dare. :-) > > > > > > That would probably be his cheapest way to attain the speed he wants. > > > > > > > > > > And exactly how would you speak to UNIBUS? > > > > Peace... SRidhar > > > > How would you talk to unibus without the 300 or more wait states that > would make the 1G processor speed useless anyways? Unless you can hook > real IO devices up to the processor that are of *reasonable* speed, all > you have is a 'souped up adding machine' (to quote _Colossus:_ > _The_Forbin_Project) What I was planning on doing is doing a custom set of bridge sets to talk to multiple UNIBUSses (way multiple) simultaneously by way of a channelized I/O system transparent to the software. (We are talking multiple years of work). Peace... Sridhar From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Wed Dec 12 17:04:29 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200112122304.MAA17124@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Boatman on the River of Suck : > And exactly how would you speak to UNIBUS? At that speed, very slowly with pauses betweeen the words. :-) Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Dec 12 02:47:53 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662B2@exc-reo1> > The real problem is the patents / intellectual property of DEC here. Surely all of these will have expired for the PDP-11/70, and quite possibly for the entire PDP-11 family. In fact, the early VAX patents must have expired too - I recall that MSCP is gone (or at least, going). Antonio From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 06:21:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > Would 200MHz be fast enough ? A lot of the Xilinx fpga's offer 5ns pin to pin > > > > In a word, no. 8-) > > Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? I assume these Mentec PDP-11s aren' available at PC prices, given they likely aren't produced in PC quantities... Any info on the web? -dq From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Dec 12 07:05:56 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3C175634.B0F6DF34@verizon.net> http://www.mentec.com Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > On December 11, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > > Would 200MHz be fast enough ? A lot of the Xilinx fpga's offer 5ns pin > to pin > > > > > > In a word, no. 8-) > > > > Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? > > I assume these Mentec PDP-11s aren' available at PC prices, > given they likely aren't produced in PC quantities... > > Any info on the web? > > -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 12:07:14 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: RE: Prints for an 11/70 (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15383.40146.284256.209256@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I assume these Mentec PDP-11s aren' available at PC prices, > given they likely aren't produced in PC quantities... Of course not. But then, they're also not PCs, and they're not targeted at the desktop game-playing market. > Any info on the web? http://www.mentec.com. Nice stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 12 08:05:13 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011212150513.C71188@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:33:02PM -0600, Richard W. Schauer wrote: [ECL] > Then you get the challenge of cooling it... Freon immersion cooling like the CRAY 2 has? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 13:07:31 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <20011212150513.C71188@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Then you get the challenge of cooling it... > Freon immersion cooling like the CRAY 2 has? Or sealed-membrane peltier cooling. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 12 08:25:19 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <15382.48458.155075.709137@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011212152519.D71188@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:48:22PM -0500, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? > I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. Ahhh, there are two possibilities: 1. Sridhar is making a joke. 2. Sridhar has no clue about digital logic circuit design. * Get one of those fancy FPGAs and be satisfied with 200MHz. It will be faster than everything else you can get for less than $$$$$$$. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ p.s. * I don't have much clue about that, but enough to say that 1GHz is far beyond a home brewn design with todays tools. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 10:28:20 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: <15382.48458.155075.709137@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011212152519.D71188@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3C1785A3.961F790F@jetnet.ab.ca> Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:48:22PM -0500, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Get one of those fancy FPGAs and be satisfied with 200MHz. FPGA's suck at random logic, my cpu speed has dropped from 20 Mhz to 15 Mhz when I added my control section - random logic -. > p.s. * I don't have much clue about that, but enough to say that 1GHz > is far beyond a home brewn design with todays tools. I say it is NOT, because at those speeds you still have to place it by hand anyway. Here is a good link to prove that point. http://www.colorforth.com/ Mind you some the earlier chips were prone to meltdown - they ran too fast. What is the problem is you have Mega-transitors in the modern machines - nothing like a PDP-n that had a nice simple logic and control design. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 13:08:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <20011212152519.D71188@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? > > I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. > Ahhh, there are two possibilities: > 1. Sridhar is making a joke. > 2. Sridhar has no clue about digital logic circuit design. * > Get one of those fancy FPGAs and be satisfied with 200MHz. > It will be faster than everything else you can get for less than $$$$$$$. :-) Neither, actually. I was thinking somewhere in the $250,000 range. Peace... Sridhar From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Dec 12 14:03:31 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <20011212152519.D71188@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212120158.00ab4080@mcmanis.com> I didn't see the original. Philip Freidin (www.fliptronics.com) is a friend of mine who is doing a 3.2Ghz FPGA. Yes, it takes a level of skill most of us don't posses but I've seen it protos running on his work bench. Doing 1Ghz for him would probably be rather straight forward. --Chuck At 11:08 AM 12/12/01, you wrote: >On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > > > Jeeeeezus Sridhar, how fast did you have in mind? > > > I was thinking somewhere in the range of a gigahertz. > > Ahhh, there are two possibilities: > > 1. Sridhar is making a joke. > > 2. Sridhar has no clue about digital logic circuit design. * > > Get one of those fancy FPGAs and be satisfied with 200MHz. > > It will be faster than everything else you can get for less than > $$$$$$$. :-) > >Neither, actually. I was thinking somewhere in the $250,000 range. > >Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 15:26:58 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: <20011212152519.D71188@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5.1.0.14.0.20011212120158.00ab4080@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3C17CBA2.6669EC3A@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck McManis wrote: > > I didn't see the original. > > Philip Freidin (www.fliptronics.com) is a friend of mine who is doing a > 3.2Ghz FPGA. Yes, it takes a level of skill most of us don't posses but > I've seen it protos running on his work bench. Doing 1Ghz for him would > probably be rather straight forward. I find that hard to believe.Are you sure you don't have decimal point off. He may be good but he an't Scotty - the miracle worker. FPGA's are 1/10 the speed just do to routing and buffering over gates of the same technology. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Dec 12 16:44:31 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <3C17CBA2.6669EC3A@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20011212152519.D71188@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5.1.0.14.0.20011212120158.00ab4080@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212144102.0246b340@mcmanis.com> At 01:26 PM 12/12/01, Ben wrote: >Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > I didn't see the original. > > > > Philip Freidin (www.fliptronics.com) is a friend of mine who is doing a > > 3.2Ghz FPGA. Yes, it takes a level of skill most of us don't posses but > > I've seen it protos running on his work bench. Doing 1Ghz for him would > > probably be rather straight forward. > >I find that hard to believe.Are you sure you don't have decimal point >off. He may be good but he an't Scotty - the miracle worker. FPGA's are 1/10 >the speed just do to routing and buffering over gates of the same >technology. Well its real, I've seen it work with my very own eyes. He's a bit coy about the application (he's a consultant after all) but lots of things like 10G Ethernet run internally at that clock rate. --Chuck From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 12 14:23:10 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > Dave McGuire said: > > That's the only thing I don't like about sbus. You can fill up an > > sbus card with three good-sized chips. Ridiculous. > that, and the connectors are evil... I've had no problem with them -- they stick a little sometimes, but that's not too much trouble. I'd rather that than have them fall out. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Dec 12 16:15:42 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>; from csmith@amdocs.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:23:10PM -0600 References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011212161542.B7921903@uiuc.edu> Christopher Smith said: > > > that, and the connectors are evil... > > I've had no problem with them -- they stick a little sometimes, but that's > not too much trouble. I'd rather that than have them fall out. :) In particular, I've had some stubborn cards (the worst was a cisco dual-width FDDI board) leap out and stab me with those little stubby pins that protrude from the top of the connector's solder points...the problem is that applying enough force to dislodge the damn card also jammed it up into the sides of my thumbs. it hurts, especially when it's the third time that's happened in 5 minutes... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/068de125/attachment.bin From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 12 17:22:05 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > Christopher Smith said: > > I've had no problem with them -- they stick a little > sometimes, but that's > > not too much trouble. I'd rather that than have them fall out. :) > In particular, I've had some stubborn cards (the worst was a > cisco dual-width > FDDI board) leap out and stab me with those little stubby > pins that protrude > from the top of the connector's solder points...the problem > is that applying > enough force to dislodge the damn card also jammed it up into > the sides of my > thumbs. it hurts, especially when it's the third time that's > happened in 5 > minutes... Ahh, but without the blood-sacrifice, the systems wouldn't run nearly as well ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rhudson at cnonline.net Wed Dec 12 01:22:38 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? References: <003a01c182cd$6a976da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1705BE.9020605@cnonline.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > Why would anyone want to do such a thing? You just it hook up with a simple RCA > cable to a TV set with a VIDEO input, which nearly all of them have nowadays. > > Dick :^) <--- note "anti smart a** smiley" 1) tv too big to tote into den 2) Wife usually won't let computer out of den 3) Color Monitor I have (hook to VCR type ) won't show 80 col text well enough to read (well almost...) 4) Monochrome monitor shows text fine but no color 5) Now swapping monitors depending on output... bad for back. I may have to hook them both up with a rca "Y" plug... From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Dec 12 16:55:16 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: Apple II C Plus ---> modern monitor? In-Reply-To: <3C1705BE.9020605@cnonline.net> References: <003a01c182cd$6a976da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >4) Monochrome monitor shows text fine but no color >5) Now swapping monitors depending on output... bad for back. > >I may have to hook them both up with a rca "Y" plug... I am thinking of using the video input I have on a couple of PC/mac computers and just putting the Apple II era video in a window of my main monitor. From jpdavis at gorge.net Wed Dec 12 03:15:47 2001 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google Message-ID: <3C172043.D2E2E4C9@gorge.net> Google claims to have recovered the USENET archives from 1981 to present. Makes for some really fun reading. Birth of the web, linux, all the old machines we love. Jim Davis. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 16:04:03 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google In-Reply-To: <3C172043.D2E2E4C9@gorge.net> Message-ID: <20011212220403.70339.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Davis wrote: > Google claims to have recovered the USENET archives from 1981 to > present. > Makes for some really fun reading. Birth of the web, linux, all the old > machines we love. > Jim Davis. I've been perusing it... I can't find any of my own posting prior to the Great Renaming (net.micro.amiga, etc.) In fact, I can see in one of the traffic groups my upstream feed telling the other UUCP admins that we were off the air (and I was out of a job ;-) but I that's one of the oldest messages with my name in it. None of my _actual_ posts appears until late 1987. Guess even with 7+E08 messages, there's still gaps. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Dec 12 16:37:26 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google In-Reply-To: <20011212220403.70339.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Dec 12, 1 02:04:03 pm" Message-ID: <200112122237.OAA09756@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I've been perusing it... I can't find any of my own posting prior to > the Great Renaming (net.micro.amiga, etc.) In fact, I can see in > one of the traffic groups my upstream feed telling the other UUCP > admins that we were off the air (and I was out of a job ;-) but I that's > one of the oldest messages with my name in it. None of my _actual_ > posts appears until late 1987. The earliest post of mine in there is from late 1994. To be fair, I wasn't around much earlier than that, but there are still gaps even after the Renaming. > Guess even with 7+E08 messages, there's still gaps. I'm not surprised, either, since there were few people really archiving this stuff back then. I'm glad to at least have some of it, anyway. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Dec 12 17:04:13 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:51 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google In-Reply-To: <200112122237.OAA09756@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200112122237.OAA09756@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >I'm not surprised, either, since there were few people really archiving >this stuff back then. I'm glad to at least have some of it, anyway. Well it certainly could be worse....it's got to be quite a task to have an archive like that, especially one that grows so much each day. My earliest post is showing from 1995, about the time I really started gathering these machines. I did find a post that I had lost my copy of some time back, that provided some info I needed on a set of pinouts though! BTW, here's a rather optimistic post, cut and pasted direct from Google: ------------------------------------------ Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP From: blk@syteka.UUCP (Brian L. Kahn) Newsgroups: net.games.frp Subject: amiga-commodore merge Message-ID: <475@syteka.UUCP> Date: Thu, 16-Aug-84 20:45:25 EDT Article-I.D.: syteka.475 Posted: Thu Aug 16 20:45:25 1984 Date-Received: Sun, 19-Aug-84 02:54:56 EDT References: charm.434 Lines: 11 : Commodore is reportedly buying out amiga! Hoorah! Amiga is an amazing machine. 68K, 128K of RAM, video chips that make the c64 look like a VIC, sound chips, yow! Rumor puts the price at $1000. This for a machine with the power of a Macintosh with super graphics. I can't wait! B< ------------------------------------------- -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From djenner at earthlink.net Wed Dec 12 17:37:34 2001 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google References: <20011212220403.70339.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C17EA3E.C7EB49F0@earthlink.net> I found a post of mine from 1984, asking for leads on a UUCP package to run under VMS. We found a couple, and ran UUCP for several years until we were hooked up to BITNET and ARPANET. Dave Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Jim Davis wrote: > > Google claims to have recovered the USENET archives from 1981 to > > present. > > Makes for some really fun reading. Birth of the web, linux, all the old > > machines we love. > > Jim Davis. > > I've been perusing it... I can't find any of my own posting prior to > the Great Renaming (net.micro.amiga, etc.) In fact, I can see in > one of the traffic groups my upstream feed telling the other UUCP > admins that we were off the air (and I was out of a job ;-) but I that's > one of the oldest messages with my name in it. None of my _actual_ > posts appears until late 1987. > > Guess even with 7+E08 messages, there's still gaps. > > -ethan -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From dec.parts at verizon.net Wed Dec 12 05:17:27 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Anybody want to make some extra money? Message-ID: <3C173CC7.537@verizon.net> Hello Gang, Here's a user that needs parts and support. I'll provide the parts, if they find any of what I have available to be acceptable. You provide the support. It is not intended to be free. You may quote whatever price you deem adequate to get them back in business. All they can do is say no if they don't like it. Of the SCSI Controllers that I had, all Dilogs have been sold ( one to Sweden and two to Louisiana ). What I have left is two Emulex UC07 and an Aviv QSA, plus any other parts at ... http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/web/home.htm If anybody wants to take this on, email me ASAP. Bennett re: Request for purchasing DILOG SCSI controller Dear Sir, We have VAXstation 3200 that works with operation system VAX VMS V5.3. The system has Tape Driver TK50, which gives possibility of installation of the different programs. We have problems with Q-bus SDI disk controller "DILOG 57154D" that is inserted in VAX3200. This controller is connected with two devices: WREN6 SCSI HDD(600Mb) and LD1200 Optical disk drive. Please inform us if you have for replacement up mentioned SCSI Host Adapter or it's analog, adequate for our situation or if you can repair our adapter. Please quote the prices and give us terms for your service. We ask also to give us detailed instructions for installation, and if any specialized software is needed, TK50 compatible cassette with this program. Looking forward for your reply, Sincerely, From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Dec 12 06:16:15 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Dimension 4 / WinXP In-Reply-To: <200112120246.VAA24653@mail.microserve.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212070526.028fb200@mail.wincom.net> At 09:50 PM 12/11/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Charles, read your post about the Dimension 4 and Windows XP "error binding >socket..." > >Did you ever find a fix? > > >Thanks, > >Bob >E-mail address - petruska@microserve.net I got an e-mail from Rob Chambers of thinkman,com. He says that Windows XP and D4 Time both use port 123 udp for SNTP. He suggested disabling Windows Time Service, but I took the easy way out and downloaded the NIST time program from: http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/service/its.htm and it is working OK with XP. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario, Canada, N8Y3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 12 06:24:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: HP HDSP-2490 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225AF4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 12, Ken Seefried wrote: > > Perhaps slightly off-topic (other than being a resonably old part), but > > would anyone around here have a datasheet (or, at least, a pin-out) for an > > HP HDSP-2490? This is an odd, 4-digit, 5x7 led matrix display. It's in a > > 28-pin dip, and looks to have some intellegence built in. > > > > The answer from HP (nee Agilent) is "long since obsolete, we know nothing". > > Yeah, after all, NOBODY uses displays anymore. > > GOD I hate suits. Hopefully when the board fires Carly as they surely will when the merger doesn't happen, they'll get someone in there who will fire the suits and rehire the people they let go (engineers, customer service, technicians, etc). -dq From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Dec 12 13:35:09 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: HP HDSP-2490 In-Reply-To: <15382.50282.194218.155969@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <200112120148.fBC1mIN28715@ns2.ezwind.net> <20011212023534.7692.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011212143509.007b6850@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:43 PM 12/11/01 -0500, you wrote: >On December 12, Ken Seefried wrote: >> Perhaps slightly off-topic (other than being a resonably old part), but >> would anyone around here have a datasheet (or, at least, a pin-out) for an >> HP HDSP-2490? This is an odd, 4-digit, 5x7 led matrix display. It's in a >> 28-pin dip, and looks to have some intellegence built in. >> That sounds very similar to the one used in the HP 9825 and similar calculators. I have (had?) some HP Electro-Optics catalogs that had data sheets for such devices. I'll try to find one and look it up. Joe From west at tseinc.com Wed Dec 12 07:50:26 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: another test - please ignore Message-ID: <00f301c18313$f4b674e0$0101a8c0@jay> Just another test, checking out some list stuff. Send to /dev/null Jay West From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Wed Dec 12 08:11:36 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Model 33 Teletypes acquired In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > > the plastic upper case (the gray case, not > > the white/yellow cover over the carriage) is broken into several > > pieces. So does anybody have recommendations as to glue or other > > solutions? Is someone sitting on a big stock of spare upper shells? > > Use a glue specially for ABS plastic. Most so-called plastic and model > glues are for polystyrene and won't bond ABS since they are not strong > enough. Let me know what you find, since I'm also looking for glue to use > on tons of broken ABS cases. I've been told that there is a glue made for > an ABS type of drain pipe. PVC glue won't work either, it tends to damage > ABS plastics. I tend to use "Araldite" (hrm, spelling looks wrong, could be arildite or some other combination that sounds like the above). It's an epoxy, and seems to hold just about anything. Latest thing I fixed with it was one of the securing mounts for the front cover of a rackmount BA23 - the velcrow bits. The metal it was attached to had come detatched from the rest of the cover, so I araldited a small piece of wood in the gap - can't see it's been done unless you look closly, and it goes the job great :&) I also used to to repair the broken plastic hinge on my Compaq LTE 5100, but that's another story :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Dec 12 08:45:57 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Rescue list? In-Reply-To: <20011211235725.C68192@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <15380.64853.294164.407701@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011210235400.U69970-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <20011211024029.D25133@mrbill.net> <20011211235725.C68192@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20011212084557.F25133@mrbill.net> On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:57:25PM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Whet "geeks" list??? Geeks list: http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/geeks Rescue list: http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 12 09:29:11 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: I've discovered a new pleasure. Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673BB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > From: David Woyciesjes ! > ! > Speaking of drinking, Tuesdays (tonight!) are when my APA Pool Team ! > plays. We're in first, with only two more matches to go! Then playoffs ! > for ! > the States, then it's off to Vegas after States! Woo-hoo, hopefully! ! ! Hope you make it to Vegas! BTW what level are you? I shot for a few years ! but never made it beyond a 4. No problem making the shots but post-shot ! cue ball positioning hung me up. I'm only a skill level 3, after 5 years... :) Was a 4 for a short time last year. I can't consistently make shots. Sometimes I make the easy shots and mess up the hard ones; other times I make the hard ones and screw up the simple shots! Well we won 4 out of 5 matches last night. Pretty much buttons up our winning high-points for the session. That's about $200 or so for the team. Another $300 (I think) after we win the two play-off weeks. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Dec 12 09:54:33 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: NEW BOUNTY ADDED! (Software and manual bounties $$$) References: Message-ID: <011301c18325$5e5f0a40$63721fd1@default> Did you ever locate a copy of Tab Works? I believe I may have a couple of copies down in Houston and will be on the lookout for them after I get settled in over the next couple months. Let me know if you still need it or not? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Cc: "Bay Area Computer Collector List" Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: NEW BOUNTY ADDED! (Software and manual bounties $$$) > > I'm adding the following bounty to my list below: > > Xsoft TabWorks (any version though 1.0 is preferred) ($50) > > Xsoft is/was a division of Xerox. TabWorks was a tab pallet windows > interface that ran on Windows 3.0. It was sold to Compaq and then to > Citadel. > > --- > > I am putting up the following bounties for these software and manuals: > > Adobe After Effects 3.x ($30) > Macromedia Sound Edit 16 1.0 ($30) > Macromedia Final Cut ($30) > Macromedia Freehand 5.0 ($30) > GO PenPoint manual (copyright 1992) ($15) > > Also: > > MacWeek August 7, 1995 ($5) > > I need original copies of each, disks and manuals. If you've got them, or > can find them, the bounty amount is yours (upon receipt and verification, > shipping to be paid by me). > > Please reply directly to me: . > > Thanks! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 12 12:02:49 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] ! ! ! >Ok, I give up -- how do you train a cat? :) ! ! Water spray bottle works wonders. 3 spritz later and one of ! my cats has ! stopped popping the hampster cage open and carrying the ! hampster around ! the house. ! ! Some people say tape works well to keep them off things ! (sticky side up), ! but both my cats seem to rather like it, and I find they stand on it ! padding at the tape purring happily. They lick the adhesive too? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Dec 12 12:52:28 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: Being in the presence of five cats who begrudgingly allow us to cohabitate with them, I can say with great authority that cat fur and dander has the ability to accumulate in great quantities in and on virtually any surface at an alarming rate (and that's with cats who more or less define the term "inert"; more active ones tend to boil off residue at an even higher rate). We figure the accumulation rte is about enough to build a new cat from cast-off parts about once a week. All that said, I've yet to have any failures that I can attribute to fur or dander, save for the occasional fan that bitches about wanting to be cleaned. However, every disk drive that I've got has sealed HDAs, so YMMV, big-time. Surprisingly, I've not had issues with keyboards (save for the time that Kamali, the 18+ pound Maine Coon, snapped a keycap off while traversing a Sun type-5 keyboard) or monitors (despite the fact that Tempest finds 21" Sun monitors to be The Most Perfect Place to Bask). Cat _piss_, on the other hand, is about the most destructive material to metal and electronics I've ever encountered. As for training -- the spray bottle technique works only with weak-minded cats; the more willful ones simply narrow their eyes and continue misbehaving while looking at you. Sticky tape is only modestly effective, with the effect rapidly attenuating as the tape loads up with cat fur. Oh, we have a Canine Unit as well. She flops over on her back and shows her belly anytime a cat walks near. While cats are allowed near the machines, the dog isn't, as she has a distinct bull-in-china-shop quality about her... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Dec 12 12:44:36 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: >>! Some people say tape works well to keep them off things >>! (sticky side up), >>! but both my cats seem to rather like it, and I find they stand on it >>! padding at the tape purring happily. > >They lick the adhesive too? Not that I have ever seen, they just step and press their paws against it over and over... kind of like when they are pressing down a pillow to sit, or in the case of one of mine, when he is hungry, he jumps on my lap, and presses his paws into my sternum over and over until I am annoyed (or in enough pain as he does it pretty hard), to get up and feed him. -c From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 12 13:22:40 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! >>! Some people say tape works well to keep them off things ! >>! (sticky side up), but both my cats seem to rather like ! >>! it, and I find they stand on it ! >>! padding at the tape purring happily. ! > ! >They lick the adhesive too? ! ! Not that I have ever seen, they just step and press their ! paws against it ! over and over... kind of like when they are pressing down a pillow to ! sit, or in the case of one of mine, when he is hungry, he jumps on my ! lap, and presses his paws into my sternum over and over until I am ! annoyed (or in enough pain as he does it pretty hard), to get ! up and feed ! him. Well, my 3 1/2 year old cat, Isabelle, like to like tape and pictures. Never figured that one out yet... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 12 13:15:24 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Internal Data Specifications for HP71 needed Message-ID: This person needs the Internal Data Specifications for the HP71. He's writing a multitasking OS for the HP71. Can you help him? Reply-to: stephane.cocquereaumont-coframi@transport.alstom.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:22:11 +0100 From: stephane.cocquereaumont-coframi@transport.alstom.com To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: [iso-8859-1] Réf. : Re: HP71 IDS Vintage Computer Festival le 22/11/2001 22:13:20 Pour : stephane.cocquereaumont-coframi@transport.alstom.com cc : Objet : Re: HP71 IDS On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 stephane.cocquereaumont-coframi@transport.alstom.com wrote: > Do you have any of the marvellous HP71 IDS in your archive ? > > It can be a great help for me. >I do indeed have an HP71 but I'm not familiar with the IDS. What is that >exactly? IDS is three volumes of Internal Design Specifications. All about the hardware and software, including the OS listing. >What would you be needing this for? The HP71 processor is used on other calcs, like the HP48, and I'am developing a multitasking OS for this calc. I think there was some interesting software in the HP71, the Fort/Assembler pack for example. This can be a great help. Thanks for your reply. -- Stephane Cocquereaumont -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From classiccmp at dobyns.com Wed Dec 12 14:30:23 2001 From: classiccmp at dobyns.com (Barry A. Dobyns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: HPUX 8 and HPUX 9 needed References: Message-ID: <00e201c1834b$d6ccb3d0$a103fea9@Moltres> fellow packrats, as part of a project i'm working on, I need copies of HPUX 8 and HPUX 9 CD-ROMs for the HP/9000 model 712 or HP/9000 model 720 (probably the same either way). i'm willing to (a) pay roundtrip shipping to borrow original media, (b) or pay reasonable copying and shipping costs for cdr copies of media, (c) or buy the original media outright. (d) or Thanks, -barry --- Barry Dobyns, barry@dobyns.com, http://www.dobyns.com/barry/collect From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Dec 12 15:34:52 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Internal Data Specifications for HP71 needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011212163452.007c7ac0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I used to have a set but I got rid of them along with everything else. Check with Dave Hicks' HP Calulator Museum webpage. He's selling a set of CDs with many of the HP manuals and documents stored on them. I think the HP-71 IDSs are in there too. Joe At 11:15 AM 12/12/01 -0800, you wrote: > >This person needs the Internal Data Specifications for the HP71. He's >writing a multitasking OS for the HP71. Can you help him? > >Reply-to: stephane.cocquereaumont-coframi@transport.alstom.com > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:22:11 +0100 >From: stephane.cocquereaumont-coframi@transport.alstom.com >To: Vintage Computer Festival >Subject: [iso-8859-1] R?f. : Re: HP71 IDS > >Vintage Computer Festival le 22/11/2001 22:13:20 > >Pour : stephane.cocquereaumont-coframi@transport.alstom.com >cc : > >Objet : Re: HP71 IDS > > >On Thu, 22 Nov 2001 stephane.cocquereaumont-coframi@transport.alstom.com >wrote: > >> Do you have any of the marvellous HP71 IDS in your archive ? >> >> It can be a great help for me. > >>I do indeed have an HP71 but I'm not familiar with the IDS. What is that >>exactly? > >IDS is three volumes of Internal Design Specifications. > >All about the hardware and software, including the OS listing. > >>What would you be needing this for? > >The HP71 processor is used on other calcs, like the HP48, and I'am >developing a multitasking OS for this calc. > >I think there was some interesting software in the HP71, the Fort/Assembler >pack for example. > >This can be a great help. > >Thanks for your reply. >-- >Stephane Cocquereaumont > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 12 16:34:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: Internal Data Specifications for HP71 needed In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Dec 12, 1 11:15:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2458 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/5fc852ad/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 12 14:24:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: What is the difference? Message-ID: What is the difference between MultiNet and TCPWare on the VAX? Peace... Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Wed Dec 12 14:47:13 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: What is the difference? In-Reply-To: from "Boatman on the River of Suck" at Dec 12, 2001 03:24:14 PM Message-ID: <200112122047.fBCKlDL28533@narnia.int.dittman.net> > What is the difference between MultiNet and TCPWare on the VAX? They are both sold by Process, but they are completely different in configuration. I prefer MultiNet. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 12 14:54:27 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: What is the difference? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What is the difference between MultiNet and TCPWare on the VAX? > >Peace... Sridhar I believe it's very little other than the style of interfaces for administering it. I'd recommend taking a look at the Process website for indepth information. ISTR, one is more 'VMS' style and one is more 'UNIX' style. However, I'm not fit to judge since I've only used one, and then only *very* briefly. I'm currently using Compaq TCPIP V5.1, and am very happy with it, I'd be even happier if I could find time to do some tweaking of my configuration! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From curt at atari-history.com Wed Dec 12 16:31:06 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:52 2005 Subject: What is the difference? References: Message-ID: <017501c1835c$b3c3fb80$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Wasn't Multinet done by TRW or some 3rd company as part of their all around multi-protocol networking package? Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boatman on the River of Suck" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:24 PM Subject: What is the difference? > > What is the difference between MultiNet and TCPWare on the VAX? > > Peace... Sridhar > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 16:42:00 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: What is the difference? In-Reply-To: Re: What is the difference? (Curt Vendel) References: <017501c1835c$b3c3fb80$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: <15383.56632.644022.957102@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Curt Vendel wrote: > Wasn't Multinet done by TRW or some 3rd company as part of their all around > multi-protocol networking package? TGV. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dittman at dittman.net Wed Dec 12 17:14:28 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: What is the difference? In-Reply-To: <017501c1835c$b3c3fb80$0a00a8c0@cvendel> from "Curt Vendel" at Dec 12, 2001 05:31:06 PM Message-ID: <200112122314.fBCNES029094@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Wasn't Multinet done by TRW or some 3rd company as part of their all around > multi-protocol networking package? Multinet was done by TGV (supposedly Two Guys and a VAX, but they denied it). Later TGV was bought by Cisco. Cisco kept the Windows stuff and sold the VMS software to Process. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 12 14:30:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Tape drives (which one to look for?) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi everybody, For those of you who've read my notes on the MIPS RISComputers I'm trying to get going, I ask this because I may want to replace the QIC-120 drive that's missing from one of them with a different model. I'd like some opinions on tape drives. The drive would need to plug into a SCSI interface, and I'd like it to fit in a 5.25" half-height bay. That's pretty much all I'd require from it. It would be nice if the drive held at least as much as a QIC-120 (about 120MB, it so happens ;), and was inexpensive and easy to get used. Any suggestions? What's the going price on DDS-1 these days? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Dec 12 16:09:57 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Tape drives (which one to look for?) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011212221130.RCOF22385.femail33.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> You might consider the Seagate STT8000 series in a scsi form. It stores 4gb natively on a Travan cartridge. They go for about $160.00, tapes are preformatted (servo type) and go for $20.00 or so. I've had hands on many of the ide models and own an external scsi version myself. Regards, Jeff In <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, on 12/12/01 at 02:30 PM, Christopher Smith said: >Hi everybody, >For those of you who've read my notes on the MIPS RISComputers I'm trying >to get going, I ask this because I may want to replace the QIC-120 drive >that's missing from one of them with a different model. >I'd like some opinions on tape drives. The drive would need to plug into >a SCSI interface, and I'd like it to fit in a 5.25" half-height bay. >That's pretty much all I'd require from it. It would be nice if the >drive held at least as much as a QIC-120 (about 120MB, it so happens ;), >and was inexpensive and easy to get used. >Any suggestions? What's the going price on DDS-1 these days? >Regards, >Chris >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, IL >/usr/bin/perl -e ' >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 12 16:41:22 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Tape drives (which one to look for?) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF9B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > Any suggestions? What's the going price on DDS-1 these days? I have 2 DDS-1 drives I paid $10 apiece for, as yet untested. If DDS turns out to be your ticket, and either of these work, I'll pass one along for the same $10. Now I got a reason to see if they work. ;^) See ya later, Doc From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 12 21:03:48 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Tape drives (which one to look for?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some DDS-1 drives can do straight 2gb, others ahve hardware compression to 4. I had 2 WangDAT 3100's that only did 2, swapped them out for 2 3200's that can do either 2 or 4. Nice drives, about $10-24 each dependant on condition or seller and tapes are relatively cheap, even new ones. I prefer the HP branded tapes myself, plenty of luck with them so far. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Doc -> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:41 PM -> To: Classiccmp (E-mail) -> Subject: Re: Tape drives (which one to look for?) -> -> -> On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: -> -> > Any suggestions? What's the going price on DDS-1 these days? -> -> I have 2 DDS-1 drives I paid $10 apiece for, as yet untested. If -> DDS turns out to be your ticket, and either of these work, I'll pass -> one along for the same $10. -> Now I got a reason to see if they work. ;^) -> -> See ya later, -> Doc -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 12 21:03:50 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: <20011212214730.VIIU20460.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: Roaches aren't bad if you know they are there, as are spiders, dependant on the type and where you are in the world (I don't think I'd like some of the ones in Oz or Africa). My biggest problem is rat and mouse crap, especially since the hantavirus problems in New Mexico some years ago and their urine totally eats through copper traces on circuit boards. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of -> UberTechnoid@home.com -> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:27 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around -> computers) -> -> -> I once found a chunky roach jamming an injet's paper handler. Yes, the -> smokeable kind of roach. -> -> I've seen equipment literally choked with little roaches. They eat the -> insulation on wireing. Really gross to open a monitor that is crawling -> with bugs. I'm not one of those who can comfortably hold a roach or -> spider in thier hand. -> -> Or some of the pleasant surprises such as buying (not another!) -> ATR8000 to -> discover later that it had a Copower 88 and 256k of ram onboard. -> Or buying -> (not another!) 1050 disk drive to discover later it has a Super Archiver -> with Bitwriter installed. Or buying a Rana 1000 disk drive to discover -> that it Actually Works! -> -> A couple of years ago while working at my bench I hear a whoop from the -> sales floor and in rushes 'Bubba' Mac - another tech. I follow -> him to the -> bench behind the counter and see a desktop machine, i'ts skins -> laying next -> to it. Inside, near the power supply was a beautiful, full-grown, -> colorful, desicated butterfly. -> -> The machine hadn't been opened in the five years it had been owned. -> -> -> Any other spiritual (or just plain interesting) stuff found inside a -> computer? -> -> -> In , on 12/10/01 -> at 04:52 PM, Sellam Ismail said: -> -> >On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: -> -> >> > > I once encountered a TRS-80 whose keyboard wasn't working due to a -> >> > > chronic accumulation of marijuana seeds that had fallen in. -> >> > -> >> > I understand they're high in protein. Maybe this person -> ate them over -> >> > their keyboard like others eat snacks? :) -> >> -> >> If they weren't eating snacks before they ate the marijuana -> seeds, they -> >> certainly were afterwards. :-P -> -> >Sounds like this comes from someone who knows? -> -> >:) -> -> >Just busting your chops. There's nothing wrong with smoking something -> >that Mother Nature put on Earth. Shame on those that think otherwise. -> -> >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer -> >Festival -> >---------------------------------------------------------------- -> -------------- -> >International Man of Intrigue and Danger -> >http://www.vintage.org -> -> -> -- -> ----------------------------------------------------------- -> Jeffrey S. Worley -> Asheville, NC USA -> 828-6984887 -> UberTechnoid@Home.com -> ----------------------------------------------------------- -> -> From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 13 07:19:24 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: VAX 8650 want a good home ... References: <3C12F4F1.9060602@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C18AADC.383FE72C@bellsouth.net> Gunther Schadow wrote: > > Hi, > > I know where there are probably several VAX 8600s and 8650s > and a good deal more stuff. My plan is to organize a treck > that runs from south-central US through mid-west to NY. So, > if you live along the way and dream of some big iron, here > is your chance. The thing would not be for the taking, but > presumably $200-$400 (just a bit above scrap value) would be > it. Our computer center at work is a good home, and it already has an 8650 living in it. However, I am not sure how much longer it will be there. Compaq has dramatically increased the maintenance costs for the older VAX systems and our management is looking to cut costs. The last 8650 we decommissioned ended up in a scrap yard that I occasionally visit. I was able to salvage the RL02 and some of the UNIBUS components before it left us, but the bulk of the system was left to sit out in the rain. -- Doug Carman pdp11 at bellsouth dot net From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 07:36:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B1D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Yeah, just what we would need to find..... a Sydney Funnel Web spider. > I don't even want to meet a Brown Recluse. All spiders have toxins in their venom; not all toxins are dangerous to humans. Apparently most humans *are* susecptible to the brown recluse, but in varying degrees. I've seen the brown recluse in my home, among several other species. Can't always tell which is which but I can tell that some are different from others. One species living in and around my home grows very large. One night, I'd come home from a drunk, and passed out with the lights on; sleeping on a mattress on the floor. I awoke from the pain of a bite, looked at my arm and saw a small amount of blood. Just at the edge of the bed, I saw a *big* spider scurry off. In my stupor, I deciced to go back to sleep; worst case, I simply wouldn't wake up. But the next day comes, bidden or not. Now, I used to have these embarrasing warts on my elbows and underside of my forearms. A couple of days later, while showering, I noticed these warts were swollen up. Strange; but I didn't give it any more thought. A week later, I looked again, and the warts were gone. Somewhere in my basement lives a species of spider that contains a miracle wart cure in its venom. If only I could determine which one, I'd be rich! I do have lots of webs in some of the classic EQ I have down in the basement (notably the SOL). But I've found that letting the ants and spiders have their way keeps the roach population in control. Much better than "Better living through Chemistry". -dq From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 13 08:26:14 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B1D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Recluse spider's venom is an enzymic type vemon, it actually eats the skin away. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:36 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around -> computers) -> -> -> > Yeah, just what we would need to find..... a Sydney Funnel Web spider. -> > I don't even want to meet a Brown Recluse. -> -> All spiders have toxins in their venom; not all toxins are -> dangerous to humans. Apparently most humans *are* susecptible -> to the brown recluse, but in varying degrees. -> -> I've seen the brown recluse in my home, among several -> other species. Can't always tell which is which but I -> can tell that some are different from others. From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 08:18:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Dec13.103145est.119156@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Recluse spider's venom is an enzymic type vemon, it actually eats the skin >away. And the bites tend not to heal either, or do so very slowly. I've seen pictures of someone with large black patches of skin two years after being bitten. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Dec 13 06:42:51 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 References: <20011212105402.G73604-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <15383.44645.174002.831019@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C18A24B.63058FA0@verizon.net> > That's the only thing I don't like about sbus. You can fill up an > sbus card with three good-sized chips. Ridiculous. They make doubles. Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 12, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > Are you wanting this to go in big, hex-width cards like old UNIBUS cards, > > > or will you be defining a new form factor, connector (compact UNIBUS?), > > > backplane, and card mounting system for your new UNIBUS (UNewBUS?)? > > > > Old style. > > Cool. Cards that you can actually FIT SOME COMPONENTS ON. What a > concept. > > That's the only thing I don't like about sbus. You can fill up an > sbus card with three good-sized chips. Ridiculous. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 06:36:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B17@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Maybe, but doubtful. This was more of a tape backup device. It uses > DIGITAL cassettes. If you've never seen one, they have a square notch > just off the center of the top of the cassette, and they have two slide > tabs to turn write-protection on/off. Otherwise, it looks just like a > regular analog cassette tape. Yeah, I've got a drive from an old Burroughs teller machine... Had a bunch of Burroughs stuff I dumped about five years ago, though I still have a direct-wire 1200 baud modem... -dq From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Thu Dec 13 06:34:58 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Google and Usenet Archives from 15-May-1981 Message-ID: Hello. I take five minutes to review one thing that maybe somebody could clear me: I've checked the Usenet Oldnews Archive in http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News.Archive/ and I saw the time limit that appears in Google (15-May-1981) is applicable there too. But I'm lightly surprised because some Newsgroups like FA.arpa-bboard has MORE threads than the finally displayed in a search. By example, this Usenet Group has 333 Threads but it only show 297 in a search. Can be possible that could exists even more news before 1981-May-15 archived in Google but not available by the moment ? Thanks and Greetings Sergio From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 06:34:12 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B16@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > The earliest post of mine in there is from late 1994. To be fair, I wasn't > around much earlier than that, but there are still gaps even after the > Renaming. *REplies* to my first posts are there, but not the posts themselves... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 06:33:36 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: tektronix phaser Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B15@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 12, Dan Wright wrote: > > I agree...it's a great print process. I think it has much nicer looking > > output then color laser, personally...more photo-like with the glossiness and > > all :) > > It's targeted at an entirely different market than color lasers, so > that's not really a valid comparison. But yes, the Phaser III output > is *really* impressive. And if you get hungry, it's the only printer on the market with edible inks... Plus, if you run out, all you have to do is run down to WallyWorld and get a box of Crayolas... Just kidding of course; we dumped a Phaser 550 that was a toner-based laserprinter this year in favor of two Phase 850s, which use the wax-based inks. The prints do not fair well, however, in *any* form of currently produced page protectors. Even those ones they came out with for toner-prints don't work, the wax just melts onto the plastic. Perhaps glassine envelopes? -dq From donm at cts.com Thu Dec 13 00:34:12 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 In-Reply-To: <20011212211426.SMDV29545.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > I recall having backup disks of the cpt provided packages. I'll look and > see if the disks are still where I think they are. Next time I'm at my > storage place. > > BTW The CPT box I saw ran CP/M 2.2? That, I think, was the CPT 8000. - don > Regards, > > Jeff > > In <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF63@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, on > 12/09/01 > at 02:59 PM, Christopher Smith said: > > >Hi everybody, > > >I remember somebody mentioning the CPT 9000 on this list recently. > > >Since I just happen to be working on one, I thought I'd post this > >question here. > > >Does anyone know where I can get some of the original software that might > >take advantage of the full screen-height? I have a copy of ventura > >publisher that was pre-installed, but I assume that its CPT9000 driver is > >corrupt. It works with the Herc ega driver, but with the CPT9000 driver, > >I just get some strange text-mode blocks. > > >I also wonder whether anyone's tried Minix on it, and whether that might > >address the whole monitor? > > >Regards, > > >Chris > > >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > >Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > >/usr/bin/perl -e ' > >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From univac2 at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 00:35:10 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 6000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If the disks are the Xenix system disks, then don't spend too much time looking for them. The hard disk has it installed. But if you have a Tandy terminal for it, I'd really like to have that. The computer hasn't arrived yet, but I have a feeling I'm really going to love it. Thanks, Owen on 12/12/01 2:41 PM, Merle K. Peirce at at258@osfn.org wrote: > > You know, we might havew a spare terminal. I'd have to look. I'm pretty > sure we might have the disks somewhere, too, but it would take some > serious digging and we'd have to get our 6000 up and run ning. Rather a nice > little system, isn't it? > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Owen Robertson wrote: > >> I am very happy today - I'm finally getting a TRS-80 Model 6000! Anyway I >> was wondering if anyone has any software for it (it runs Xenix, which it >> has), or the hardware manual, as I am only getting the Xenix manuals. And if >> anyone has one of those neat little TRS-80 DT-1 terminals for it, I'd love >> that. >> >> > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From at258 at osfn.org Thu Dec 13 08:10:16 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 6000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm pretty sure our 6000 has 2 or 3 terminals, and we could let one go. I'll look into where they've been hidden, and get back to you. I'm pretty blitzed after my haul, and I still have to unload today. Probably be the weekend. On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Owen Robertson wrote: > If the disks are the Xenix system disks, then don't spend too much time > looking for them. The hard disk has it installed. But if you have a Tandy > terminal for it, I'd really like to have that. The computer hasn't arrived > yet, but I have a feeling I'm really going to love it. > > Thanks, > Owen > > on 12/12/01 2:41 PM, Merle K. Peirce at at258@osfn.org wrote: > > > > > You know, we might havew a spare terminal. I'd have to look. I'm pretty > > sure we might have the disks somewhere, too, but it would take some > > serious digging and we'd have to get our 6000 up and run ning. Rather a nice > > little system, isn't it? > > > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Owen Robertson wrote: > > > >> I am very happy today - I'm finally getting a TRS-80 Model 6000! Anyway I > >> was wondering if anyone has any software for it (it runs Xenix, which it > >> has), or the hardware manual, as I am only getting the Xenix manuals. And if > >> anyone has one of those neat little TRS-80 DT-1 terminals for it, I'd love > >> that. > >> > >> > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 00:47:33 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: pleH! Message-ID: !07/11 PDP a ni deppart m'I !pleH Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 00:58:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: pleH! In-Reply-To: pleH! (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: Message-ID: <15384.20884.214371.741141@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > !07/11 PDP a ni deppart m'I !pleH Go to sleep, Sridhar. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 01:37:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: pleH! In-Reply-To: <15384.20884.214371.741141@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 13, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > !07/11 PDP a ni deppart m'I !pleH > > Go to sleep, Sridhar. LOL. I have finals tomorrow and I'm trying to install MultiNet. Peace... Sridhar From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Thu Dec 13 03:32:02 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: List of HP-PB adapters ? Message-ID: <20011213113202.A10211@mail.er-grp.com> The subject says it all, does anyone have a handy list of HP-PB adapters supported in the Nova series ? (I realize this might be *just* short of the ten year rule). Looking to add some IO to my H50. btw. I love google. I love google. Google rocks. I'm busy downloading every single message with a mention of 9000/500-series. Did I mention that google rocks ? Thanks, -- jht From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 12 21:57:31 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Tape drives (which one to look for?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Some DDS-1 drives can do straight 2gb, others ahve hardware compression to > 4. I had 2 WangDAT 3100's that only did 2, swapped them out for 2 3200's > that can do either 2 or 4. Nice drives, about $10-24 each dependant on > condition or seller and tapes are relatively cheap, even new ones. I prefer > the HP branded tapes myself, plenty of luck with them so far. Memorex! ~$3 each, excellent performance. Although at 3 bux a tape, I usually rotate 'em out after 12 or 15 overwrites. Paranoid is my middle name... Doc From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 22:56:03 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011213045603.28171.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > > > > 12 inches for a thousandth of a second sounds a little off...though > > > I'm too lazy to do the math... > > > > Right. The speed of light is 30 cm/ns. > > Or 1.79 X 10^12 furlongs per fortnight. 8-) I think I first heard that phrased as "~2 micro-furlongs per micro- fortnight..." -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Dec 13 04:32:16 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662B3@exc-reo1> > Right. The speed of light is 30 cm/ns. The thing to remember is "one foot per nanosecond". Much easier not to forget that one! Antonio From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 23:16:35 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: SNA (was RE: I've discovered a new pleasure.) In-Reply-To: <15382.40867.604377.188956@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011213051635.27890.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> One sick-puppy wrote: > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's > to VCF East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone > else brings machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll > be welcome to hook up to me. I have an "Informer" terminal I could bring - it resembles a luggable VT-220 with a keyboard than snaps on the front of the CRT for storage. It has a 3274-equivalent inside and any terminal can act as a controller for others of its kind, daisy-chained as slaves. I got it for $90 at the Hamvention back when I used to make SNA gear for a living. Did the SNA-for-Linux project die? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 00:06:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: SNA (was RE: I've discovered a new pleasure.) In-Reply-To: <20011213051635.27890.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > One sick-puppy wrote: Indeed. > > I am pretty sure that I will be bringing one of my IBM S/390 G1's > > to VCF East next year with VM, MVS, and Linux running. If anyone > > else brings machines capable of SNA, FDDI, Ethernet or ATM, you'll > > be welcome to hook up to me. > > I have an "Informer" terminal I could bring - it resembles a luggable > VT-220 with a keyboard than snaps on the front of the CRT for storage. > It has a 3274-equivalent inside and any terminal can act as a controller > for others of its kind, daisy-chained as slaves. I got it for $90 > at the Hamvention back when I used to make SNA gear for a living. Cool! > Did the SNA-for-Linux project die? I know they're still working on SNA support for Linux/390, but that was an IBM/Marist project, and not something for regular PC Linux. Peace... Sridhar From fernande at internet1.net Wed Dec 12 23:18:52 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Cats around computers References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3C183A3C.3D41E26D@internet1.net> I had a cat lick pictures once. They'll eat/chew on the darndest things if you let them. I think it is the taste..... something about the chemicals must be salty tasting or something. It's not like cats are chewy like dogs or rodents. My parents still have one cat that will eat/chew ribbon.... we have to be careful at Christmas. A cat of long ago would eat thread (for sewing). My mother pulled about a yard out of him one day...... he was eating it right off the spool and swallowing it!! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA David Woyciesjes wrote: > Well, my 3 1/2 year old cat, Isabelle, like to like tape and pictures. Never > figured that one out yet... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 23:39:19 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: Re: Cats around computers (Chad Fernandez) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <3C183A3C.3D41E26D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15384.16135.884154.899990@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I had a cat lick pictures once. They'll eat/chew on the darndest things > if you let them. I think it is the taste..... something about the > chemicals must be salty tasting or something. It's not like cats are > chewy like dogs or rodents. Did anyone beside me read this wrong and laugh hysterically? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From fernande at internet1.net Thu Dec 13 01:59:02 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Cats around computers References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <3C183A3C.3D41E26D@internet1.net> <15384.16135.884154.899990@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C185FC6.DC705C35@internet1.net> I hope your only referring to the possibility of an over-cooked cat/dog being chewy..... if not, don't explain! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 13, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I had a cat lick pictures once. They'll eat/chew on the darndest things > > if you let them. I think it is the taste..... something about the > > chemicals must be salty tasting or something. It's not like cats are > > chewy like dogs or rodents. > > Did anyone beside me read this wrong and laugh hysterically? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From donm at cts.com Thu Dec 13 01:01:37 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:53 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <3C183A3C.3D41E26D@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I had a cat lick pictures once. They'll eat/chew on the darndest things > if you let them. I think it is the taste..... something about the > chemicals must be salty tasting or something. It's not like cats are > chewy like dogs or rodents. > > My parents still have one cat that will eat/chew ribbon.... we have to > be careful at Christmas. A cat of long ago would eat thread (for > sewing). My mother pulled about a yard out of him one day...... he was Which end? - don > eating it right off the spool and swallowing it!! > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > Well, my 3 1/2 year old cat, Isabelle, like to like tape and pictures. Never > > figured that one out yet... > > > > --- David A Woyciesjes > > --- C & IS Support Specialist > > --- Yale University Press > > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > > --- (203) 432-0953 > > --- ICQ # - 905818 > From fernande at internet1.net Thu Dec 13 01:57:28 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Cats around computers References: Message-ID: <3C185F68.6420C275@internet1.net> Don Maslin wrote: > > My parents still have one cat that will eat/chew ribbon.... we have to > > be careful at Christmas. A cat of long ago would eat thread (for > > sewing). My mother pulled about a yard out of him one day...... he was > > Which end? The entrance :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dittman at dittman.net Thu Dec 13 08:44:46 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <3C185F68.6420C275@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Dec 13, 2001 02:57:28 AM Message-ID: <200112131444.fBDEikP31427@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > My parents still have one cat that will eat/chew ribbon.... we have to > > > be careful at Christmas. A cat of long ago would eat thread (for > > > sewing). My mother pulled about a yard out of him one day...... he was > > > > Which end? > > The entrance :-) My wife sews (a lot!) and every now and then one of the cats will try to eat some thread. One day we heard one of them making strange noises at the litterbox. It turns out the cat had eaten a long thread, and it was making its way out. We had to pull it out (slowly, to avoid internal injuries to the cat and external injuries to us). There was at least a foot of thread in there. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 07:37:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B1E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 13, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I had a cat lick pictures once. They'll eat/chew on the darndest things > > if you let them. I think it is the taste..... something about the > > chemicals must be salty tasting or something. It's not like cats are > > chewy like dogs or rodents. > > Did anyone beside me read this wrong and laugh hysterically? Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? -dq From fernande at internet1.net Wed Dec 12 23:24:38 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) References: Message-ID: <3C183B96.AEFAF37@internet1.net> Yeah, just what we would need to find..... a Sydney Funnel Web spider. I don't even want to meet a Brown Recluse. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Roaches aren't bad if you know they are there, as are spiders, dependant on > the type and where you are in the world (I don't think I'd like some of the > ones in Oz or Africa). My biggest problem is rat and mouse crap, especially > since the hantavirus problems in New Mexico some years ago and their urine > totally eats through copper traces on circuit boards. From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 00:18:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: <3C183B96.AEFAF37@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Yeah, just what we would need to find..... a Sydney Funnel Web spider. > I don't even want to meet a Brown Recluse. I once was bitten by a wolf spider. It's an experience I wouldn't care to repeat. Peace... Sridhar From fernande at internet1.net Thu Dec 13 02:04:45 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) References: Message-ID: <3C18611D.E06D4E8@internet1.net> I don't know anything about Wolf Spiders. Maybe that'll be something I look up. Looked up Borax on the web, BTW. I had no idea that it was natural, or that "20 Team Borax" was named after the 2 horse and 18 mule teams that used to pull the stuff, by wagon, out west a long time ago. I actually have a box of it. I use it in my laundry and for house hold cleaning. It's about the only cleaning substance I have that I haven't tried on a computer, However. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I once was bitten by a wolf spider. It's an experience I wouldn't care to > repeat. > > Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 03:32:15 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: <3C18611D.E06D4E8@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I don't know anything about Wolf Spiders. Maybe that'll be something I > look up. They're considered "mildly toxic", but it hurts like a bitch. They live over much of North America. > Looked up Borax on the web, BTW. I had no idea that it was natural, or > that "20 Team Borax" was named after the 2 horse and 18 mule teams that > used to pull the stuff, by wagon, out west a long time ago. I actually > have a box of it. I use it in my laundry and for house hold cleaning. > It's about the only cleaning substance I have that I haven't tried on a > computer, However. If you're ever working on a car, and you get grease on your hand, put a small amount of powdered soap on your hand, add borax generously, a couple drops of water, so it makes a paste, and it will take the grease right off. Peace... Sridhar From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 13 08:20:53 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I get them coming in and out of storage all of the time but I throw a smoke type insecticide bomb inside the storange trailer at the beginning of spring (once I see that nature has come to life again) and it gets rid of mud daubers, paper wasps, all sorts of spiders, roaches, etc. Particularly irritating are the cocoons of certain caterpillars that become moths - not destructive but when I ship machines I'd rather not send them to other places in the US and Canada where they might not be a problem yet. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Boatman on the -> River of Suck -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 12:19 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around -> computers) -> -> -> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: -> -> > Yeah, just what we would need to find..... a Sydney Funnel Web spider. -> > I don't even want to meet a Brown Recluse. -> -> I once was bitten by a wolf spider. It's an experience I -> wouldn't care to -> repeat. -> -> Peace... Sridhar -> -> From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Dec 13 05:13:24 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) References: <3C183B96.AEFAF37@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000d01c183c7$2ef17070$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) > Yeah, just what we would need to find..... a Sydney Funnel Web spider. Ouch, not good. Nasty SOB's. People die from those. > I don't even want to meet a Brown Recluse. Yeah, heard about them, we have similar ones here, not sure what they are called, the only common spider in this area that is very poisonous, is the the Redback, which seems to be a variant of the Black Widow, however there is another black spider that is closely related, and are very common. Fortunately they are unagressive. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Dec 13 05:59:16 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: <000d01c183c7$2ef17070$de2c67cb@helpdesk> References: <3C183B96.AEFAF37@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213225632.02b94e18@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 09:43 PM 13/12/2001 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Yeah, heard about them, we have similar ones here, not sure what they are >called, the only common spider in this area that is very poisonous, is the >the Redback, which seems to be a variant of the Black Widow, however there >is another black spider that is closely related, and are very common. >Fortunately they are unagressive. It seems that the Redback is a very recent import to Australia (probably from the US). This new theory is based on the fact that the Aboriginal Australians do not mention the Redback in any of their dreaming stories. Now how's that for topic drift! Just filling in time while rebuilding linux kernels to support my CD-RW so I can burn a CD for a customer that I promised for 9am tomorrow morning. If this try doesn't work I'm moving the CD-RW back into the system where it used to work. Who said Server Consolidation saved money? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From jss at subatomix.com Wed Dec 12 23:46:47 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: <200112122304.MAA17124@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <20011212233322.C74724-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Greg Ewing wrote: > Boatman on the River of Suck : > > > And exactly how would you speak to UNIBUS? > > At that speed, very slowly with pauses betweeen the words. :-) DUMMY MODE ON What little I've read about UNIBUS told me that UNIBUS has no set clock rate, and that the speed of communication between two devices would be the the highest rate that both devices could handle. If you've got nothing but Sridhar-made fast devices on the bus, what stops you from having a UNIBUS operating at say, 33MHz to 100MHz on average? Remember that I currently have approximately zero electrical engineering (or whatever you choose to call it) knowledge. DUMMY MODE OFF -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 12 23:55:38 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: Re: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <200112122304.MAA17124@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <20011212233322.C74724-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > What little I've read about UNIBUS told me that UNIBUS has no set clock > rate, and that the speed of communication between two devices would be the > the highest rate that both devices could handle. If you've got nothing > but Sridhar-made fast devices on the bus, what stops you from having a > UNIBUS operating at say, 33MHz to 100MHz on average? I don't recall the specifics of Unibus...but its bandwidth is commonly stated as being about 7MB/sec. If that's the case, then it's unlikely that it's asynchronous. But perhaps it is asynchronous, and 7MB/sec was just the maximum. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 13 00:19:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) References: <200112122304.MAA17124@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz><20011212233322.C74724-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001f01c1839e$30c25c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I remember reading that a principal difference between a microcomputer, back in the old days, and a minicomputer, was that the mini had an asynchronous bus. That was, ISTR, a definition based largely on the DEC-realized version of the minicomputer. If it topped out at 7 MBps, it was probably because the bus handshake was clocked with a CPU clock, in order to ensure the CPU would "see" the transitions. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:55 PM Subject: Re: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) > On December 12, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > What little I've read about UNIBUS told me that UNIBUS has no set clock > > rate, and that the speed of communication between two devices would be the > > the highest rate that both devices could handle. If you've got nothing > > but Sridhar-made fast devices on the bus, what stops you from having a > > UNIBUS operating at say, 33MHz to 100MHz on average? > > I don't recall the specifics of Unibus...but its bandwidth is commonly > stated as being about 7MB/sec. If that's the case, then it's unlikely > that it's asynchronous. But perhaps it is asynchronous, and 7MB/sec > was just the maximum. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 00:34:07 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: Re: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) (Richard Erlacher) References: <200112122304.MAA17124@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <20011212233322.C74724-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> <001f01c1839e$30c25c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15384.19423.58919.803430@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Richard Erlacher wrote: > If it topped out at 7 MBps, it was probably because the bus handshake was > clocked with a CPU clock, in order to ensure the CPU would "see" the > transitions. I am reminded of my favorite piece of broken english, found in a Taiwanese PeeCee motherboard manual many years ago: "If use 387 coprocessor, the clocked by CPU clock." No, I made no typos there. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 00:30:23 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 12, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > What little I've read about UNIBUS told me that UNIBUS has no set clock > > rate, and that the speed of communication between two devices would be the > > the highest rate that both devices could handle. If you've got nothing > > but Sridhar-made fast devices on the bus, what stops you from having a > > UNIBUS operating at say, 33MHz to 100MHz on average? > > I don't recall the specifics of Unibus...but its bandwidth is commonly > stated as being about 7MB/sec. If that's the case, then it's unlikely > that it's asynchronous. But perhaps it is asynchronous, and 7MB/sec > was just the maximum. That's why I was thinking of addressing multiple busses. Not only that, I want to maintain compatibility with existing devices. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 00:43:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: Re: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15384.19981.676941.488790@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > That's why I was thinking of addressing multiple busses. Not only that, I > want to maintain compatibility with existing devices. I don't recall who at the moment...but there's some company somewhere who makes a PCI-Qbus bridge, and maybe a Unibus one as well. The idea is to use a pdp11 emulator on a crappy PeeCee and be able to connect your DEC peripherals to it. I would love to see NetBSD/alpha drivers for that board...I'd put an RL02 (or maybe an RK07!) on one my Alphas! 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 01:34:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: <15384.19981.676941.488790@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > That's why I was thinking of addressing multiple busses. Not only that, I > > want to maintain compatibility with existing devices. > > I don't recall who at the moment...but there's some company > somewhere who makes a PCI-Qbus bridge, and maybe a Unibus one as > well. The idea is to use a pdp11 emulator on a crappy PeeCee and be > able to connect your DEC peripherals to it. I wonder if the emulator would work multiprocessor... that might help me achieve the kind of speed that I want. > I would love to see NetBSD/alpha drivers for that board...I'd put an > RL02 (or maybe an RK07!) on one my Alphas! 8-) Or even NetBSD/sparc64. An RK07 on an Ultra Enterprise. That would be truly bizarre. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 13 02:46:13 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: <15384.19981.676941.488790@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't recall who at the moment...but there's some company > somewhere who makes a PCI-Qbus bridge, and maybe a Unibus one as > well. The idea is to use a pdp11 emulator on a crappy PeeCee and be > able to connect your DEC peripherals to it. Here's a list, Unibus & Qbus PCI adapters: http://www.dbit.com/adapters.html Doc From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Dec 13 09:03:45 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 References: Message-ID: <3C18C351.78F328B5@idirect.com> >Doc wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I don't recall who at the moment...but there's some company > > somewhere who makes a PCI-Qbus bridge, and maybe a Unibus one as > > well. The idea is to use a pdp11 emulator on a crappy PeeCee and be > > able to connect your DEC peripherals to it. > Here's a list, Unibus & Qbus PCI adapters: > http://www.dbit.com/adapters.html Jerome Fine replies: Just a few words about the above adapters. Note that this information is second hand since I have not used them myself, only been in direct contact with the actual users. V2.2 of Ersatz-11 (E11) had some problems with use in a multi-processor environment when the TLC adapters were being used. From the information about the problem, it was only going to cause a difficulty if there was more than one PDP-11 being emulated (Multi-Processor) at the same time. The reason the difficulty was not causing a problem in V2.2 was that no one was attempting a multi-processor configuration like a PDP-11/74 system - not that E11 even supported such a configuration in V2.2 of E11. The actual reason for the problem was that the internal code within V2.2 of E11 did not correctly do a Read/Modify/Write cycle for an instruction such as: Bis #100,@#CSR rather, first a Read, then internally the Modify and finally a full Write cycle. This could have allowed a second CPU to also begin the same sequence at almost the identical time and thereby result in a timing problem. With V3.0 of E11, this issue has been corrected. While the Unibus users of E11 have not found a difficulty with the software/hardware being used with a BCI-2004 adapter, the Qbus users with a BCI-2104 adapter had found there is a problem which causes the incorrect execution of the above instruction with a Qbus board in a BA23 box and V3.0 of E11 using the BCI-2104 adapter. On the other hand, using V2.2 of E11 runs everything in a satisfactory manner. At the present time, there is a suspicion that the problem could be with the timing for the Qbus board which obviously functions correctly in that BA23 box when used with a real DEC PDP-11/73 CPU, but not when V3.0 of E11 is used with the adapter. Or the firmware and hardware associated with the BCI-2104 could be the problem. Note that if the instruction is changed to a: Mov #100,@#CSR then there is only a Write cycle and everything is again OK even with V3.0 of E11. Also, realize that the adapter is almost as expensive and the first license for the Commercial Version of Ersatz-11, the cost being about $ US 2500 and $ US 3000 ($ US 4000 for the Linux version - although I understand the Linux version of E11 still does not support the adapters), respectively. On the other hand, no DEC PDP-11 today is able to run at the speed of even a Pentium III system. And even the PDP-11/93 CPU cards are almost as much today as a Commercial E11 license. But a Mentec Qbus CPU or a QED CPU card that attempts to approach the speed of E11 on a Pentium IV is probably far more expensive than the combined cost of E11 and the PC. Of course, if a company requires the extra speed and they have hardware which can't be emulated (which means there can be problems with the interaction between the adapters and the emulator, then a full Qbus only system is probably best. As for the person who mentions the Charon-11 emulator, >Ian Koller wrote: > Dave, > > I don't recall who at the moment...but there's some company > > somewhere who makes a PCI-Qbus bridge > Mentec offers those, as well as a PDP-11 emulator. > http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/emulation.htm > http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/PCIQ_Adapter.htm I understand that the fellows who use E11 and the Unibus hardware have attempted to use the Charon-11 as well and found it to be very unsatisfactory. By the way, Charon-11 is NOT a Mentec product, as far as I know, Mentec just pretends it is and sell the Charon-11 emulator as if it is a Mentec product. My guess is that Mentec did not want to have Ersatz-11 as their "official" emulator offering for the kind of reasons that companies have when the decision is made to offer a product which is not as technically capable as some other product, i.e. I have been told that E11 is much better than Charon-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Dec 13 06:24:23 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) References: <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15384.19981.676941.488790@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C189DF7.9AFA85E4@verizon.net> Dave, > I don't recall who at the moment...but there's some company > somewhere who makes a PCI-Qbus bridge Mentec offers those, as well as a PDP-11 emulator. http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/emulation.htm http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/PCIQ_Adapter.htm Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 13, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > That's why I was thinking of addressing multiple busses. Not only that, I > > want to maintain compatibility with existing devices. > > I don't recall who at the moment...but there's some company > somewhere who makes a PCI-Qbus bridge, and maybe a Unibus one as > well. The idea is to use a pdp11 emulator on a crappy PeeCee and be > able to connect your DEC peripherals to it. > > I would love to see NetBSD/alpha drivers for that board...I'd put an > RL02 (or maybe an RK07!) on one my Alphas! 8-) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 13 00:15:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) References: <20011212233322.C74724-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <001101c1839d$99bd2ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've always favored hot-rodding. Something like this might be both interesting and useful. If someone actually has complete documentation, not just a part of it, perhaps that includes all the logic to operate the bus. However, I don't remember ever hearing about a signaling protocol on the UNIBUS that would allow the devices to determine the speed at which such operations would take place. However, DEC was prone to use closed-loop signaling, so the rate was dependent on the execution of a precisely defined handshake. If you can manage that, the bus interface should be straightforward enough. That should allow mixing of devices of various speeds, so long as they adhere, absolutely, to the signaling protocol and there's a timer somewhere in the system that aborts a bus transaction when it takes too long. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:46 PM Subject: Re: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Greg Ewing wrote: > > > Boatman on the River of Suck : > > > > > And exactly how would you speak to UNIBUS? > > > > At that speed, very slowly with pauses betweeen the words. :-) > > DUMMY MODE ON > > What little I've read about UNIBUS told me that UNIBUS has no set clock > rate, and that the speed of communication between two devices would be the > the highest rate that both devices could handle. If you've got nothing > but Sridhar-made fast devices on the bus, what stops you from having a > UNIBUS operating at say, 33MHz to 100MHz on average? > > Remember that I currently have approximately zero electrical engineering > (or whatever you choose to call it) knowledge. > > DUMMY MODE OFF > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 07:40:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B1F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 12, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > If it topped out at 7 MBps, it was probably because the bus handshake was > > clocked with a CPU clock, in order to ensure the CPU would "see" the > > transitions. > > I am reminded of my favorite piece of broken english, found in a > Taiwanese PeeCee motherboard manual many years ago: > > "If use 387 coprocessor, the clocked by CPU clock." > > No, I made no typos there. :-) I bought a CGA-compatible video cards a few years back (80s), that had an incompatible hi-res mode in addition to the CGA, and a mouse interface. The manual kept referring to "the connector of the ten ways". This sounded *SO* Zen that I was sure than once I had it figured it, it'd be the secret to life. Finally dawned on me that this was "10-pin connector". -dq From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 00:08:34 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers and cats, what about... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011213060834.12225.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Russ Blakeman wrote: > I have an old chest freezer in the garage (away from the house) that ALL > machines get to sit inside of overnight when they're dropped off... > ...combined with the extreme winter Wow... I guess I've been lucky. Nothing has ever crawled out of a machine I just got. > Of course monitors, pcs, etc have to sit in the warm shop an hour or two > before apply power - hell on fuses when 25kv arcs across a monitor CRT > that's sweating. Not only that, but it's harmful to apply power to cold-soaked devices. If you read the full specs, stuff with ICs tends to say that you can store it at -40C/F, but not to expose it to more than a 2 deg/hr temp rise. I did just that when I picked up a computer that had been sitting for the entire winter in an unheated building at Williams Field, Antarctica. We kept the heat off in the truck, brought the computer to the science lab and warmed it over a two day period from -40F to +50F before letting it sit in the room for a while. Three days after the initial rescue, we powered it on and all was well. Paranoid perhaps, but it didn't hurt to be that paranoid. It's not like I was sitting there manually tweaking the temperature (we used a thermal chamber). All this for a Compaq 386sx box. :-P -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 13 00:22:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Nanoseconds per foot (RE: RIP: Betty Holberton) References: Message-ID: <002b01c1839e$7aafd660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The work done by Blood and published in the Motorola MECL System Design Handbook is still the idustry benchmark, used by the guys who write the IBIS models and processing software. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: CLeyson@aol.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Nanoseconds per foot (RE: RIP: Betty Holberton) For coax or twisted pair the delay per unit length is given by:- Delay (Secs/unit length) = Root( (C/unit length)*(L/unit length) ) Example: For RG58-U coax, C=100pF/m and L=250nH/m Delay = root(250E-9*100E-12) = 5E-9 sec/m or 5ns/m A pulse will travel 66% slower in RG-58 cable than free space. If anyone needs to lay out high speed PCB's the following book is highly recommended: "High Speed Digital Design - A Handbook of Black Magic" Howard W Johnson and Martin Graham ISBN 0-13-395724-1 Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011212/9afb57bf/attachment.html From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Dec 12 21:07:57 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <1008212882.11694.30.camel@eleusis> Please see this item and read the description: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309308140 I have a similar machine which I would call identical except for the green-screen. All the "prototype" markings that the auction makes mention of I have seen seen on my Lisa, as well as the only other one I've seen. I believe these markings to be common, and that the screen was a replacement job by a 3rd party. Is this guy misinformed or am I? Thanks, Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Dec 12 21:55:19 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <1008212882.11694.30.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <000401c18389$fbe2fd80$017ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> I've exchanged emails with Adam...he is quite knowledgeable about Lisas, I think he has 5+ Lisas, so I have to believe that he knows what he is talking about. He even helped to get mine up and running. I'm just surprised that he would part with such a machine (if it's that rare). -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey H. Ingber Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:08 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: What's with this Lisa? Please see this item and read the description: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309308140 I have a similar machine which I would call identical except for the green-screen. All the "prototype" markings that the auction makes mention of I have seen seen on my Lisa, as well as the only other one I've seen. I believe these markings to be common, and that the screen was a replacement job by a 3rd party. Is this guy misinformed or am I? Thanks, Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) From louiss at gate.net Wed Dec 12 22:08:53 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <1008212882.11694.30.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: On 12 Dec 2001 22:07:57 -0500, Jeffrey H. Ingber wrote: #I have a similar machine which I would call identical except for the #green-screen. All the "prototype" markings that the auction makes #mention of I have seen seen on my Lisa, as well as the only other one #I've seen. I believe these markings to be common, and that the screen #was a replacement job by a 3rd party. Is this guy misinformed or am I? # Well, notice the guy really doesn't claim anything about the machine's history. As far as the Widget peculiarities are concerned, the piggy-back Z8 processor and other features were found on early Widgets. I have several. I think "prototype" did get stamped on a lot things that were sold commercially, since I have that stamp on various Apple equipment as well. The green screen may well be a replacement. Some time ago, someone claimed to be selling an original "rare" disk III for an Apple III in a Disk II case. Such things did exist (I have one), but the one being auctioned was clearly a hack (wrong labels). The problem with these eBay claims is the person making them has no real idea about the history of the item, so he just makes up something that seems plausible to him. Without documentation, these claims aren't really worth anything, IMHO. Louis From foo at siconic.com Wed Dec 12 23:38:04 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Louis Schulman wrote: > The problem with these eBay claims is the person making them has no > real idea about the history of the item, so he just makes up something > that seems plausible to him. Without documentation, these claims > aren't really worth anything, IMHO. Totally agreed. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 04:02:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Some time ago, someone claimed to be selling an original "rare" disk >III for an Apple III in a Disk II case. Such things did exist (I >have one), but the one being >auctioned was clearly a hack (wrong labels). There was one posted on eBay a couple of months ago that was claimed to be one of the Apple III Disk II drives but when I compared the information posted to my example of that drive, it showed that the drive for sale was just a standard Disk II. This was based on the model#, serial#, lack of pass-thru connector, etc. I sent the seller an email pointing these things out but never heard anything back from him. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 04:10:46 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <1008212882.11694.30.camel@eleusis> References: <1008212882.11694.30.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: >Please see this item and read the description: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309308140 > > >I have a similar machine which I would call identical except for the >green-screen. All the "prototype" markings that the auction makes >mention of I have seen seen on my Lisa, as well as the only other one >I've seen. I believe these markings to be common, and that the screen >was a replacement job by a 3rd party. Is this guy misinformed or am I? Mine has the 'PTA Prototype' markings on the inside of the front cover as well. From talking with other's it would appear that those markings aren't uncommon. The thing I always found interesting was that even though earlier Lisa 2 and 2/5's weren't intended to use the internal Widget hard disk due to the lack of internal connector for it, the faceplate still has the drive access light window for it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Thu Dec 13 05:34:07 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02196B@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > Mine has the 'PTA Prototype' markings on the inside of the > front cover as well. From talking with other's it would appear that > those markings aren't uncommon. The thing I always found interesting > was that even though earlier Lisa 2 and 2/5's weren't intended to use > the internal Widget hard disk due to the lack of internal connector > for it, the faceplate still has the drive access light window for it. I'm going to have to check mine now, since it was originally a stock Lisa 2 before I upgraded it to a 2/5 - it definitely has the drive access light window, so maybe they were going to add in a LED on the floppy drive? cheers -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 05:46:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02196B@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> References: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02196B@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Message-ID: <01Dec13.080033est.119111@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I'm going to have to check mine now, since it was originally a stock Lisa 2 >before I upgraded it to a 2/5 - it definitely has the drive access light >window, so maybe they were going to add in a LED on the floppy drive? The drive access light window is well above the floppy though, more inline with where the Widget drive is normally mounted. It would appear that they already had the 2/10 in the works when the 2 and 2/5 were released, using them as just a modified stopgap machine. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Thu Dec 13 07:40:19 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02196C@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > >I'm going to have to check mine now, since it was originally > a stock Lisa 2 > >before I upgraded it to a 2/5 - it definitely has the drive > access light > >window, so maybe they were going to add in a LED on the floppy drive? > > The drive access light window is well above the floppy > though, more inline with where the Widget drive is normally mounted. > It would appear that they already had the 2/10 in the works when the > 2 and 2/5 were released, using them as just a modified stopgap > machine. I always wondered why the 2 existed in the first place, since without a hard drive and only .5mb of memory it was useless for anything other than MacWorks. -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 07:18:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02196C@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> References: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02196C@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Message-ID: <01Dec13.093153est.119548@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I always wondered why the 2 existed in the first place, since without a hard >drive and only .5mb of memory it was useless for anything other than >MacWorks. Once you take a look at your's, since you said it started life as a '2' and you upgraded it to a 2/5, would you mind sending me the model/serial/date numbers off of it? Thanks Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Thu Dec 13 09:33:50 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02196D@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > >I always wondered why the 2 existed in the first place, > since without a hard > >drive and only .5mb of memory it was useless for anything other than > >MacWorks. > > Once you take a look at your's, since you said it started > life as a '2' and you upgraded it to a 2/5, would you mind sending > me the model/serial/date numbers off of it? No problem - I'll check it tonight and mail you on-list since it might be of interest to others...... cheers -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 13 09:53:46 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <200112131444.fBDEikP31427@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > My wife sews (a lot!) and every now and then one of the cats will try to > eat some thread. One day we heard one of them making strange noises at > the litterbox. It turns out the cat had eaten a long thread, and it was > making its way out. We had to pull it out (slowly, to avoid internal > injuries to the cat and external injuries to us). There was at least a > foot of thread in there. OK. This is getting very near the "Too Much Information" category.... Doc From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Dec 13 10:08:30 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673C6@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Chad Fernandez [mailto:fernande@internet1.net] ! ....... ! ! My parents still have one cat that will eat/chew ribbon.... we have to ! be careful at Christmas. A cat of long ago would eat thread (for ! sewing). My mother pulled about a yard out of him one ! day...... he was ! eating it right off the spool and swallowing it!! Sounds familiar. We can't leave Christmas presents around with bows on them. Isabelle will rip them all off to play with them, and chew them to nothingness... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 13 10:06:18 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] > Maybe, but doubtful. This was more of a tape backup device. It uses > DIGITAL cassettes. If you've never seen one, they have a square notch > just off the center of the top of the cassette, and they have > two slide > tabs to turn write-protection on/off. Otherwise, it looks just like a > regular analog cassette tape. No problem, just file a notch in your "analog" cassette. ;) I'm not sure that would work, but given the improved resolution, etc, in cassette tapes during the last several years, it just may. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 13 10:19:16 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: Google and Usenet Archives from 15-May-1981 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > I've checked the Usenet Oldnews Archive in > http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News.Archive/ and I saw the time limit > that appears in Google (15-May-1981) is applicable there too. > > But I'm lightly surprised because some Newsgroups like FA.arpa-bboard > has MORE threads than the finally displayed in a search. By example, > this Usenet Group has 333 Threads but it only show 297 in a search. > > Can be possible that could exists even more news before 1981-May-15 > archived in Google but not available by the moment ? You might try adding &filter=0 to the search string. -Toth From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 13 10:24:31 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey H. Ingber [mailto:jhingber@ix.netcom.com] > I have a similar machine which I would call identical except for the > green-screen. All the "prototype" markings that the auction makes > mention of I have seen seen on my Lisa, as well as the only other one > I've seen. I believe these markings to be common, and that the screen > was a replacement job by a 3rd party. Is this guy > misinformed or am I? Well, I don't know whether they actually implied that the machine was a prototype... Just mentioned the markings as making it "unique." (a very slight distinction, anyway) You're right that they (the markings on the boards) might be common, though I certainly haven't seen any Lisas with green CRTs, myself. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Dec 13 10:27:26 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <3C18D6EE.2080307@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I found this really interesting: The PDP-8 has no concept of a stack. It does have sub-routines though. Instead of pushing the instruction pointer onto a stack, it's being written at the location to which the call is directed (first address of the subroutine). Then a return is simply an indirect jump to that first address of the subroutine. This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already before 1965? The coolest thing is that inspite of this "unique" way of handling subroutines, the PDP-8 had a timesharing system TSS-8. I suppose they could not share code segments then, so if three users were doing FOCAL, they would have 3 instances of the FOCAL code in memory (or swapping in and out to disk.) And all this at maximally 32 kB of memory! Amazing. I just wonder how the kernel calls were handled. The kernel was called "Monitor." That may be the revealing piece of it: perhaps the Monitor was a monitor, so only one thread could ever execute any of the monitor's code at the same time. That raises a last question: what was first, the TSS-8 kernel called "Monitor" or the operating system technical term "monitor"? Dijkstra's classic semaphore paper was back in 1968, and my "new" Introduction to Programming book is printed 1968 too. AFAIK the monitor construct is younger than the semaphore, right? So, could it be that the technical term "monitor" comes from taking the functioning of the TSS-8 kernel as a paradigma? fun stuff, isn't it? -Gunther PS: I think one could emulate something like a stack on the PDP-8 using the auto-increment registers in the PDP-8's zero page. Of course it would work without them, but it may make the one of the operations push or pop more efficient... -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From Richard.Sandwell at roebry.co.uk Thu Dec 13 11:19:48 2001 From: Richard.Sandwell at roebry.co.uk (Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: I think the IBM S/360 was 'stack challenged' too, iirc //Rich Hi, I found this really interesting: The PDP-8 has no concept of a stack. It does have sub-routines though. Instead of pushing the instruction pointer onto a stack, it's being written at the location to which the call is directed (first address of the subroutine). Then a return is simply an indirect jump to that first address of the subroutine. This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already before 1965? fun stuff, isn't it? From MRC at CAC.Washington.EDU Thu Dec 13 11:26:30 2001 From: MRC at CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C18D6EE.2080307@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:27:26 -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: > The PDP-8 has no concept of a > stack. > This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already > before 1965? So was a machine instruction to do multiply, but on a PDP-8 that is an add-on hardware option > this "unique" way of handling > subroutines Unique? Quite a few processors of that time had a store-PC-and-jump type of subroutine call. The beloved PDP-10 had three (JSR, JSP, JSA/JRA) and subsequent enhancements added more (JSYS, XPCW); yet it also had stacks from its inception. Contemporary programming languages, such as BASIC and FORTRAN, did not use stack subroutines. It's possible that modern BASIC and FORTRAN compilers may permit recursive subroutine calls, but doing so is still prohibited by the language specification. Now you know why. Stacks are very useful, but they are not the solution to everything. One of the biggest deficiencies of C is its lack of co-routines, since it only has the stack style of subroutine calling. Yeah, I know about setjmp/longjmp, but those are one-way, not true co-routines. Of course, talking about co-routines to youngsters is likely to get their eyes to glaze over, since they won't have a clue as to what I'm talking about. > I suppose > they could not share code segments then, so if three users were > doing FOCAL, they would have 3 instances of the FOCAL code in > memory (or swapping in and out to disk.) And all this at maximally > 32 kB of memory! Amazing. The concept of shared memory appeared quite some time (late 1960s) after the PDP-8 architecture was designed, and at first only carefully-designed programs could use it. > I just wonder how the kernel calls were handled. The kernel was > called "Monitor." That may be the revealing piece of it: perhaps > the Monitor was a monitor, so only one thread could ever execute > any of the monitor's code at the same time. Non-sequitor. AFAIK, the PDP-8 operating system used invalid (in user mode) instructions as system calls, and these were generally the same as the machine instructions that would do the equivalent operation. Since this is an instruction trap, it doesn't subroutine calls. I certainly would never design an operating system that uses the user's stack to invoke a system call. > That raises a last question: what was first, the TSS-8 kernel > called "Monitor" or the operating system technical term "monitor"? Because nobody used the word "kernel" back then. The term "monitor" is far older than Dijkstra's paper. > Dijkstra's classic semaphore paper was back in 1968, and my "new" > Introduction to Programming book is printed 1968 too. AFAIK > the monitor construct is younger than the semaphore, right? No. The term appears in the early 1960s. From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Dec 13 11:46:16 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C18D6EE.2080307@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Gunther Schadow wrote: > I found this really interesting: The PDP-8 has no concept of a > stack. It does have sub-routines though. This is pretty characteristic of machines of the time. The Nova didn't grow a stack until the mid-70's, although the call linkage was somewhat different with the return address being hammered into AC3 rather than written to memory (although the interrupt return address did get written to location zero). > This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already > before 1965? Of course. In machines frequently an order of magnitude (if not even more) greater in cost. > The coolest thing is that inspite of this "unique" way of handling > subroutines, the PDP-8 had a timesharing system TSS-8. The lack of hardware support for a stack abstraction hardly precludes the construction of shared or reentrant code. So you have to manipulate the stack yourself rather than the hardware doing it for you. Big deal; for many people the options in the late 1960s were to do that or not have a machine at all. The big problem is doing useful things in the absence of a memory mapping and protection unit of some sort (the Nova grew one early on, but I'm too ignorant of the PDP-8 family to know if such an option ever existed). -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 12:05:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: RE: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 (Chris Kennedy) References: <3C18D6EE.2080307@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <15384.60910.194429.278037@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Chris Kennedy wrote: > were to do that or not have a machine at all. The big problem > is doing useful things in the absence of a memory mapping and > protection unit of some sort (the Nova grew one early on, but > I'm too ignorant of the PDP-8 family to know if such an option ever > existed). On an 8/e, I believe that'd be the Memory Extension and Timeshare Control board. Among other things it drives the three high-order address bits to go beyond 4KW of core, but if memory serves this is more of a bank-switching scheme than anything else. But hey, it works! :-) PDP8s are Good Food(tm). -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 13 10:46:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:54 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > I am reminded of my favorite piece of broken english, found in a > Taiwanese PeeCee motherboard manual many years ago: > "If use 387 coprocessor, the clocked by CPU clock." > No, I made no typos there. :-) I haven't had so much (documented) cheap imported hardware, but my favorite is from a sound board: "We make 100% sure that this is caused by a M/B bios bug. Please to update the bios of the mainboard with the M/B manufacturer." I was also amused once to see somebody who didn't speak English very well (nor, it appears, know what SCSI stands for) mark some SCSI controllers with a sign that said "SCASI." Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Dec 13 11:13:49 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>; from csmith@amdocs.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:46:22AM -0600 References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011213111349.I7957970@uiuc.edu> The manual of the motherboard for the first PC I built had a statement to the following effect on the second page: "This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct." Christopher Smith said: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > > > I am reminded of my favorite piece of broken english, found in a > > Taiwanese PeeCee motherboard manual many years ago: > > > "If use 387 coprocessor, the clocked by CPU clock." > > > No, I made no typos there. :-) > > I haven't had so much (documented) cheap imported hardware, but my favorite > is from a sound board: > > "We make 100% sure that this is caused by a M/B bios bug. Please to update > the bios of the mainboard with the M/B manufacturer." > > I was also amused once to see somebody who didn't speak English very well > (nor, it appears, know what SCSI stands for) mark some SCSI controllers with > a sign that said "SCASI." > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/18b76ef4/attachment.bin From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Dec 13 11:20:26 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: <15384.19423.58919.803430@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 12, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > If it topped out at 7 MBps, it was probably because the bus handshake was > > clocked with a CPU clock, in order to ensure the CPU would "see" the > > transitions. > > I am reminded of my favorite piece of broken english, found in a > Taiwanese PeeCee motherboard manual many years ago: > > "If use 387 coprocessor, the clocked by CPU clock." > > No, I made no typos there. :-) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL > I always liked (refering to sticking on the rubber feet of a keyboard): "Now adhere the regal sticked rubbles" Peter Wallace From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 13 12:17:53 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > The manual of the motherboard for the first PC I built had a > statement to the > following effect on the second page: > "This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct." It is also vaguely amusing when the author of some software documents in English (which I'm usually very thankful for, since it's my first language), but normally speaks another language. (German and French, (other Latin languages too) are exceptionally prone to this) For instance, I had an old 3d modeler for the POV raytracer whose documentation contained the following (more or less): "PV3D now is a freeware." There are also these from a (very good) Atari Lynx development page: "Thanks to a simple error Atari made. As you (maybe) know, all the Atari-carts have an encrypyed header and a check-sum over the complete rom-image. This checksum is so da?? good that changing a single-bit,the INSERT GAME message causes." (Care to guess the native language? :) >From the same page: "But 65C02-code is compact and even with C are good program possible." I've even in English noticed, that German-speakers tend to their verbs on the end of sentences put. :) (No offense, of course, I don't speak three words of German, myself...) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 13 10:53:09 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B1D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Dec 13, 1 08:36:16 am" Message-ID: <200112131653.IAA08050@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I've seen the brown recluse in my home, among several > other species. Can't always tell which is which but I > can tell that some are different from others. The brown recluse has a very clear fiddle mark on their body. You can't mistake them for anything else. I've found them in camp showers (eeek). They are unpleasantly fond of human company. The wolf spider is frequently mistaken for a brown recluse even though they're grey, not brown; they're considerably larger; and they definitely don't have the fiddle marking. This is unfortunate since people take shoes and other implements to wolf spiders who are good to have in the house as they keep insects down to a minimum, and don't bother people. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: Today is a great day for making firm decisions. Or is it? --------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 12:06:44 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Cats around computers (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B1E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15384.60980.224188.661367@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 13 12:26:35 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Pinouts for Vaxstation 3100 monochrome cable? Message-ID: Hi, all. I have a vaxstation 3100 m38 running NetBSD, and I'd like to be able to use the local monochrome display. I've removed the SPX color adapter, and made up a cable according to the pinouts on Kee's VS3100 page. His pinouts are composite on pin 9 and ground on 3 for a BC23K-03 cable. However, with the cobbled cable attached, I don't get any output. Question 1: Did I miss a jumper on the mainboard? Question 2: I assumed that the pins were numbered in the same order as an AUI ethernet connector. Looking at the female, I have 1-8 right-to-left, and 9-15 R-t-L. Is this correct? Question 3: I'm using an IBM Power17 display. Multisync, separate-sync, composite-sync and sync-on-green capable, I would think it would work with mono input on the green. It does work fine with the SPX adapter. Question 4: I also have a Digital VR160 display, but everything I've read implies that it won't do monochrome. Is that true? Has anybody been successful with a monochrome display on this box? Any help would be most welcome. Doc From cmurillo at multi.net.co Thu Dec 13 02:51:31 2001 From: cmurillo at multi.net.co (cmurillo@multi.net.co) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C18D6EE.2080307@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C088FBE00000BAD@obregon.multi.net.co> Gunther wrote: >I found this really interesting: The PDP-8 has no concept of a >stack. It does have sub-routines though. Instead of pushing the >instruction pointer onto a stack, it's being written at the >location to which the call is directed (first address of the >subroutine). Then a return is simply an indirect jump to that >first address of the subroutine. > >This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already >before 1965? Interesting... I suppose that it had to do with the fact that the pdp8 was supposed to be affordable... Roughly 13 years later, the RCA 1802 was introduced; it doesn't have a fully functional stack either, and in order to call a subroutine located far away you have to do stack manipulation yourself, resulting in an 8 or so instruction sequence before calling and a similar one to return. I hated it because I was already used to the 8085. Then, there was the hp 3000 architecture (ca. 1973), which relied on the stack hardware at all levels. carlos. T From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 18:45:12 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <3C088FBE00000BAD@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3C17FA18.FB28FD84@jetnet.ab.ca> cmurillo@multi.net.co wrote: > > Gunther wrote: > >I found this really interesting: The PDP-8 has no concept of a > >stack. It does have sub-routines though. Instead of pushing the > >instruction pointer onto a stack, it's being written at the > >location to which the call is directed (first address of the > >subroutine). Then a return is simply an indirect jump to that > >first address of the subroutine. > > > >This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already > >before 1965? > > Interesting... I suppose that it had to do with the fact > that the pdp8 was supposed to be affordable... I can think of two other good reasons that a stack was not found on a PDP-8. First is was based on the PDP-5 a digital controller , not a general computer. Second there is no room for stack instructions in the order code with only a 12 bit word width. Having a hardware JSR has a real feature of the instruction set. A a side note stack based programs are harder to recover from when a stack blows up. BTW If you really need a 12/24 bit processor with stacks, I have a nice design. A nice cpu but only 1 in existence still :) Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 12:41:29 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B2D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already > before 1965? Sometimes, even when stacks were provided in hardware, they operated slower than a "simulation" of a stack using an array and an index. While the hardware might provide for a complex stack frame for the data needed by local activations, you could avoid all the overhead by rolling your own. Regards, -dq From jones at cs.uiowa.edu Thu Dec 13 14:10:00 2001 From: jones at cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <200112132010.fBDKA0B16350@server.divms.uiowa.edu> Mark Crispin wrote: > Stacks are very useful, but they are not the solution to everything. Absolutely agreed. > One of the biggest deficiencies of C is its lack of co-routines, since > it only has the stack style of subroutine calling. Yeah, I know about > setjmp/longjmp, but those are one-way, not true co-routines. Well, setjmp and longjmp are pretty powerful. see http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/opsys/threads/ for a machine-independent user-level thread package implemented in C using setjmp and longjmp for control transfers between threads. It comes very close to what a real coroutine afficianado would like. (Writing the thread launch code in a machine independent way was murder.) Curiously, the same thing can be done without longjmp()! I had a student write me a thread package in Pascal once. All he needed was a mechanism to convert pointers to integers and back again (easy enough in standard Pascal, so long as it doesn't check variant records). Given this, his code did essentially the same thing as my thread package. > Of course, talking about co-routines to youngsters is likely to get > their eyes to glaze over, since they won't have a clue as to what I'm > talking about. Indeed. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 15:03:13 2001 From: bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com (Bill McDermith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <3C18D6EE.2080307@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C191791.D1E85E21@yahoo.com> Perhaps today when you can pack arbitrarily large amounts of hardware on a chip, memory is (practically) free, we (mostly) all have internet connections, disks are gigantic, and computer systems are cheap (er, inexpensive), it's hard to understand the pdp-8 and contemporary computers... ;-) Gunther Schadow wrote: > I found this really interesting: The PDP-8 has no concept of a > stack. It does have sub-routines though. Instead of pushing the > instruction pointer onto a stack, it's being written at the > location to which the call is directed (first address of the > subroutine). Then a return is simply an indirect jump to that > first address of the subroutine. Actually, most machines from this era used this method or something like it... The CDC6000s actually stored a branch to the return address in the first word of the subroutine. You can, of course, implement stacked subroutine calls in a pdp-8... This sort of thing was generally left as an exercise to the student (I was one of those around that time... :-) As an interesting side note, from my understanding, the MIPS processor doesn't have a stack in the same way as the pdp-8 doesn't -- it has to be implemented "by hand", with stores through a register (stack pointer) with the register incremented or decremented... Of course, the MIPS has registers (note the plural), while the pdp-8 has an accumulator. > This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already > before 1965? Sure, the notion was around, look in Fundamental Algorithms (Knuth,1968, a reference I still have on my desk...) Stacks were mostly implemented in FORTRAN arrays, along with linked lists and other "modern" data structures... :-) I guess, after spending so much time programming those things, I had missed the "hilarious" aspect of it... :-) > The coolest thing is that inspite of this "unique" way of handling > subroutines, the PDP-8 had a timesharing system TSS-8. I suppose > they could not share code segments then, so if three users were > doing FOCAL, they would have 3 instances of the FOCAL code in > memory (or swapping in and out to disk.) And all this at maximally > 32 kB of memory! Amazing. Oh, and look at all the other suffering! Those three "users" on asr33 teletypes running at 110 baud, saving their programs on paper tape, reading those programs through the reader on the tty, and splicing the tape! The hours spent playing games like lunar lander, with its wonderful tty graphics! A huge program was a box of cards (2000 as I remember... :-) And the -- oh, oh, sorry, pardon the nostalgia trip... In a sense, the hp2000c timesharing system did have "shared code segments", in the sense that the whole time sharing system was a basic interpreter with a file system/command processor tacked on, so all the users (32 max, as I recall, it you has both multiplexors in the 2114 communications processor...) shared the same "code". The user area was swapped... > I just wonder how the kernel calls were handled. The kernel was > called "Monitor." That may be the revealing piece of it: perhaps > the Monitor was a monitor, so only one thread could ever execute > any of the monitor's code at the same time. Kernel?!!? We don't need no stinking kernel! Real programmers read and write directly to the devices! (Or just use the switch register!) Operating system, Bah, Humbug! :-) > That raises a last question: what was first, the TSS-8 kernel > called "Monitor" or the operating system technical term "monitor"? > Dijkstra's classic semaphore paper was back in 1968, and my "new" > Introduction to Programming book is printed 1968 too. AFAIK > the monitor construct is younger than the semaphore, right? So, > could it be that the technical term "monitor" comes from taking the > functioning of the TSS-8 kernel as a paradigma? The 7090 and 7094 at MIT in 1963 were controlled by the FORTRAN Monitor System ( http://www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html ), so the use of monitor as this type of term goes back at least that far... The first ref that I found to semaphores is Dijkstra in 1968, but it seems to me that the term was in use before that... (Other than in connection with signal flags and railroad signals, etc. And monitors? heavily armored gunboats around Civil War time, I believe... Named after the prototype...) > fun stuff, isn't it? > -Gunther I would have to echo the comment by Fredrick P. Brooks, Jr., from the Epilogue of the new revision of his classic book, "The Mythical Man-Month": "To only a fraction of the whole human race does God give the privilege of earning one's bread doing what one would have gladly pursued for free, for passion. I am very thankful." (Page 291) After doing this for nearly thirty years, I still can't believe I'm getting _paid_ to do this. Yes, I'd have to say it is fun, both looking back and in the larger sense... > PS: I think one could emulate something like a stack on the > PDP-8 using the auto-increment registers in the PDP-8's zero > page. Of course it would work without them, but it may make > the one of the operations push or pop more efficient... > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Thu Dec 13 16:34:22 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: OT time References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B3C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <15385.9596.744188.140405@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <00c701c18426$500ae700$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Doesn't anybody care anymore? From donm at cts.com Thu Dec 13 17:28:06 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: OT time In-Reply-To: <00c701c18426$500ae700$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > Doesn't anybody care anymore? > Be charitable, it is holiday time! Everyone is flaked out from thinking about shopping for it :) - don From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 13 19:26:03 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: OT time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not me, I gave up on religion and religious events some time ago, and have given considerable thought to frank Costanza's "Festivus" as a new December holiday. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Don Maslin -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 5:28 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: OT time -> -> -> -> -> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: -> -> > Doesn't anybody care anymore? -> > -> -> Be charitable, it is holiday time! Everyone is flaked out from thinking -> about shopping for it :) -> - don -> -> -> From dittman at dittman.net Thu Dec 13 18:03:25 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: OT time In-Reply-To: <00c701c18426$500ae700$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Dec 13, 2001 05:34:22 PM Message-ID: <200112140003.fBE03Px01176@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Doesn't anybody care anymore? Yes, I do, but I've been extremely guilty of late, too. I guess it can just be a little to easy to veer off-topic. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 13 19:26:01 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: OT time In-Reply-To: <200112140003.fBE03Px01176@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Gotta let it slide once in a while or things really get dry and boring... -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Dittman -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:03 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: OT time -> -> -> > Doesn't anybody care anymore? -> -> Yes, I do, but I've been extremely guilty of late, too. I guess -> it can just be a little to easy to veer off-topic. -> -- -> Eric Dittman -> dittman@dittman.net -> Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ -> From jss at subatomix.com Thu Dec 13 20:23:53 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: OT time In-Reply-To: <00c701c18426$500ae700$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20011213201508.L76924-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > Doesn't anybody care anymore? It hasn't been totally OT. We've discussed cats and each other's success at integrating them into a classiccmp lifestyle. We've also discussed the many weird things that I have been found inside computers (including OT 'puters). At least we're not at each other's throats about "Dubya" or calling each other ASSSSSSSes. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From spedraja at ono.com Thu Dec 13 14:32:12 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Internet Historical Documents Translation Message-ID: <008701c18415$3f6ef320$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hello. A short note to thanks the help about Google Usenet Groups. I probed the &Filter=0 and works :-) I want to begin a project with a large projection in time. I want to translate to spanish language all the historical and classic computer documents I can. I should like to begin with articles, files and documents of relevance about the Internet, but I am thinking in mirror some classic computers websites translating them to my idiom. I don't know if anybody could be interested about it and permit to do the mirror and translation. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From spedraja at ono.com Thu Dec 13 15:02:08 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Info-Vax mailing list messages previous to 1981 Message-ID: <00a001c18419$6dc59a40$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hi again. I've checked CRVAX server but I can't locate what I'm searching... Anybody knows a place where could be located the INFO-VAX mailing list messages previous to 17-May-1981 ? This is the date of the first message gatewayed to the Fa.info-vax newsgroup. If I read correctly the info that appears in http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue3_8/chapter10/ , Usenet began in 1979, and the FA.* groups were gatewayed from mailing lists to the Usenet newsgroups by the long time closed (1994 if the RIP note of one person that I assume was Keith Bostic was correct) UCBVAX server. Do you heard about some kind of backup or so of these early Usenet and/or mailing lists messages ? By the way, a little swinging in the messages of these years is, like Spock could say without any doubt, "fascinating". By example, one reference to one Datamation of 1981 that did a critic about the Unix interface :-) ,,, or one guy that tried in 1981 to do one list of DBMS for Unix. I don't know if somebody knows cause of direct participation some of these hits. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Dec 13 15:35:43 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B16@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214083404.02b94e18@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 07:34 AM 13/12/2001 -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >*REplies* to my first posts are there, but not the posts themselves... The first post I recall making in 1987 is there. This was just after Australia got a reliable 19.2K modem link to the US but before TCP/IP had taken hold. From the address I used (huw@latcs1.oz) we were still using SUN-II as the network protocol. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 16:37:03 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214083404.02b94e18@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214083404.02b94e18@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: >The first post I recall making in 1987 is there. This was just after >Australia got a reliable 19.2K modem link to the US but before >TCP/IP had taken hold. From the address I used (huw@latcs1.oz) we >were still using SUN-II as the network protocol. Prior to about 1993, I hadn't yet discovered Usenet as I was still posting on various BBS networks, including FIDOnet and GTnet (I think that was the name of the GTpower specific network). It wasn't until small ISP's started popping up all over that I finally got a Unix shell account and jumped to the Internet. Then again, I never had the access to connections from colleges and such either. There was a time though that I was doing a dozen different BBS's each day trying to keep up with various message bases and discussions, including running my own for a while. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 13 19:41:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Emerald Systems digital cassette drive References: Message-ID: <007801c18440$7c059ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got one of those somewhere, I think, and it uses a WD33C93 on the interface adapter, which means it's capable of standard SCSI. The one I have is a Tandberg drive that uses DC600 cartridges. Sadly, I don't have the drivers, etc, either. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:28 PM Subject: Emerald Systems digital cassette drive > > Ok, now I found an Emerald Systems digital cassette drive. This is an > internal drive and has its own interface card. However, I don't have a > driver disk or manual for this one either. > > Does anyone have the drivers or a manual? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 13 19:57:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Tandy 3.5" floppy and NEC 8201A Message-ID: <200112140157.RAA08114@stockholm.ptloma.edu> I read on a website that the Tandy 3.5" floppy intended for the M100/200 series can be connected and driven by an NEC 8201A. This seems feasable and I find my 8201A much more portable than the M200 that I also have. However, the guy never responded to my E-mail. What would I need to set this up? I do have the original RS-232 cable. What I don't have are any kind of DOS disks. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Any clod can have the facts, but having an opinion is an art. -- C. McCabe - From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 13 20:15:39 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Tandy 3.5" floppy and NEC 8201A In-Reply-To: <200112140157.RAA08114@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I read on a website that the Tandy 3.5" floppy intended for the M100/200 > series can be connected and driven by an NEC 8201A. This seems feasable and > I find my 8201A much more portable than the M200 that I also have. However, > the guy never responded to my E-mail. > What would I need to set this up? I do have the original RS-232 cable. What > I don't have are any kind of DOS disks. IIRC, it was "not quite" RS-232. But that wouldn't be a problem in using the NEC, instead of the RS, as they are both made by Kyocera with similar circuitry. There USED TO BE a program for the NEC for using the first version of the Tandy drive. There was also a program for PC to use it, but ISTR a requirement of a tiny amount of circuitry to dela with different voltage levels. There also was a widely circulated multi-page discussion of the interfacing issues, sufficient to write your own. I don't recall ever seeing any provision for using the second version of the Tandy drive with anything but the 100 series. Unfortunately, the copy of the article and the software for the NEC that I used to have are long gone. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Dec 13 20:29:32 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: latest donations In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B2D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: I just returned from a 4 day excursion to Blacksburg, Va to pick up some of our latest donations. In Blacksburg, we were given a stunningly attractive Cray EL-98 through the generosity of Aerosoft, Inc. The following day, I picked up a wonderful Storage Tech Automated Tape Library from ISIS at Georgetown. This is a very large piece, a Timberline controller and transport with a Wolf Creek library module. Possibly, I have reversed the names. The next day, I picked up Rich Cini's lovely PDP-11/34 with full provenance. I notice the cpu cabinet says 11/34A on the label and is dated 1977, fitted in a 1975 rack that apparently originally held an 11/10. They are all wonderful pieces. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 12:00:33 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <01Dec13.141411est.119090@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >You're right that they (the markings on the boards) might be common, though >I certainly haven't seen any Lisas with green CRTs, myself. Now, I've never tried to replace the CRT in something like a Lisa or other single piece machine, but I wouldn't think that the CRT would be that difficult to replace? For companies like Zenith that actually manufactured CRT's, I could see there possibly be a problem with swapping it out for a different one though but I know that Apple didn't manufacture the CRT's in the Lisa. Also, the auction states that the green CRT is easier on the eyes...isn't that false? I always thought that the paperwhite displays, such as used on some DEC terminals and monitors such as the Multisync GS, were easier on the eyes than the green? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 14:53:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <01Dec13.141411est.119090@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> from "Jeff Hellige" at Dec 13, 1 02:00:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1721 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/4bec4833/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 16:23:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Mono CRTs are pretty easy to replace with minimal setting up. Delta-gun >colour CRTs are another matter with about 20 or so presets to tweak :-)... > >And mono CRTs tend to be fairly generic. If the physical dimensions >(Screen size, deflection angle, neck diameter) and the heater voltage are >the same, then it will generally give _some_ sort of display. And most of >the time it'll be a useable display. Sometimes you have to do minor >electrical mods to cater for totally different electrode voltages, but >not often. Ahhh...my point was that it likely wasn't too difficult to come up with a suitable green-screen replacement for the normal Lisa CRT. Possibly for just the reason you state below. I opened up my Lisa and it's CRT is actually made by Clinton Electronics. >This, surely depends on who you are. I know I find green on black to be a >lot easier to read than black on paperwhite. Which is why I'm using a >greenscreen IBM 5151 at the moment. Yes I can see where there might be different preferences there, just like anything else. I myself like the black baground and white text. I know people that prefer the red plasma displays, such as on the IBM 8573, but I find them a bit too bright. I did find the paperwhite displays a nice change from the green though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 13 13:44:10 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFAD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > Also, the auction states that the green CRT is easier on the > eyes...isn't that false? I always thought that the paperwhite > displays, such as used on some DEC terminals and monitors such as the > Multisync GS, were easier on the eyes than the green? That depends on the eyes. ;) I certainly prefer the white. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 13:50:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B34@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >You're right that they (the markings on the boards) might be common, though > >I certainly haven't seen any Lisas with green CRTs, myself. > > Now, I've never tried to replace the CRT in something like a > Lisa or other single piece machine, but I wouldn't think that the CRT > would be that difficult to replace? For companies like Zenith that > actually manufactured CRT's, I could see there possibly be a problem > with swapping it out for a different one though but I know that Apple > didn't manufacture the CRT's in the Lisa. Difficult you mean in terms of finding a replacement, I assume... it *is* fairly easy to replace on in a Mac, procedure-wise, but I had a boxed new Apple replacement to drop in... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 12:35:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B2B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > My wife sews (a lot!) and every now and then one of the cats will try to > > eat some thread. One day we heard one of them making strange noises at > > the litterbox. It turns out the cat had eaten a long thread, and it was > > making its way out. We had to pull it out (slowly, to avoid internal > > injuries to the cat and external injuries to us). There was at least a > > foot of thread in there. Eric- Been there, done that, with christmas ribbons... -dq From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Dec 13 13:05:23 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Zen and the art of computer collecting (was SuperFast PDP11) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B1F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <013901c18409$1ee85800$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Both Zen and the English translation of that manual come from the far east. Somehowe they always talk like "one lip whispering" over there........... Greetz, Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 2:40 PM Subject: RE: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) > > I bought a CGA-compatible video cards a few years back > (80s), that had an incompatible hi-res mode in addition > to the CGA, and a mouse interface. > > The manual kept referring to "the connector of the ten ways". > This sounded *SO* Zen that I was sure than once I had it > figured it, it'd be the secret to life. > > Finally dawned on me that this was "10-pin connector". > > -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 13:48:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Zen and the art of computer collecting (was SuperFast PDP11) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B33@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Both Zen and the English translation of that manual > come from the far east. Somehowe they always talk > like "one lip whispering" over there........... > Joshi and two monks were watching a flag waving atop a flagpole. One monk said "Look, the flag moves." The second monk said "Look, the wind moves." Joshi spoke thus: "Mind moves." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 14:37:00 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B1F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Dec 13, 1 08:40:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 757 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/54e4ab39/attachment.ksh From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Dec 13 13:06:59 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Pinouts for Vaxstation 3100 monochrome cable? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673CC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I have a VS3100 m38 also, running NetBSD 1.5 on the built-in mono adaptor. I also have the VR262 19" mono screen to go with it. I can take my cable home tonight, where my multi-meter is. I can double check for you... BTW, are you not going to use color (adaptor) in it? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] ! Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 1:27 PM ! To: Classic Computers ! Subject: Pinouts for Vaxstation 3100 monochrome cable? ! ! ! Hi, all. ! I have a vaxstation 3100 m38 running NetBSD, and I'd like to be able ! to use the local monochrome display. I've removed the SPX ! color adapter, ! and made up a cable according to the pinouts on Kee's VS3100 page. His ! pinouts are composite on pin 9 and ground on 3 for a BC23K-03 cable. ! However, with the cobbled cable attached, I don't get any output. ! Question 1: Did I miss a jumper on the mainboard? ! Question 2: I assumed that the pins were numbered in the ! same order as ! an AUI ethernet connector. Looking at the female, I have 1-8 ! right-to-left, and 9-15 R-t-L. Is this correct? ! Question 3: I'm using an IBM Power17 display. Multisync, ! separate-sync, ! composite-sync and sync-on-green capable, I would think it would work ! with mono input on the green. It does work fine with the SPX adapter. ! Question 4: I also have a Digital VR160 display, but everything I've ! read implies that it won't do monochrome. Is that true? ! ! Has anybody been successful with a monochrome display on ! this box? Any ! help would be most welcome. ! ! Doc ! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 13:46:02 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: Prints for an 11/70 In-Reply-To: Re: Prints for an 11/70 (Ian Koller) References: <20011212105402.G73604-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <15383.44645.174002.831019@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C18A24B.63058FA0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <15385.1402.644345.30833@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Ian Koller wrote: > > That's the only thing I don't like about sbus. You can fill up an > > sbus card with three good-sized chips. Ridiculous. > > They make doubles. They also make double-decker triples. That's not the point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 13:48:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) In-Reply-To: <20011212233322.C74724-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Dec 12, 1 11:46:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 907 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/deab6c47/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 15:55:27 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B3F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I bought a CGA-compatible video cards a few years back > > (80s), that had an incompatible hi-res mode in addition > > to the CGA, and a mouse interface. > > > > The manual kept referring to "the connector of the ten ways". > > This sounded *SO* Zen that I was sure than once I had it > > figured it, it'd be the secret to life. > > > > Finally dawned on me that this was "10-pin connector". > > In the UK (I have no idea if the expression is used in the States), the > term n-way connector is common. It means (of course) an connector with n > indepedant connections. It's often used for things like jack plugs ('phone > plugs' in the States) which don't really have pins. Calling the plug on > the end of a pair of stereo headphones a '3 pin plug' seems strange... Of course, we've some of the same linguistic heritage; but here, that usage's most frequent occurance is in a phrase relating to ways that deviate from each other, i.e. a four-way stop. The four ways all go away from each other. A cable with connectors like that might not be very useful (of course, as soon as I say that I envision an old-style RGB video cable with BNCs each "going their own way." -dq From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu Dec 13 19:01:39 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) References: <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15384.19981.676941.488790@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C194F73.24D7BA5C@arrl.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 13, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > That's why I was thinking of addressing multiple busses. Not only that, I > > want to maintain compatibility with existing devices. > > I don't recall who at the moment...but there's some company > somewhere who makes a PCI-Qbus bridge, and maybe a Unibus one as > well. The idea is to use a pdp11 emulator on a crappy PeeCee and be > able to connect your DEC peripherals to it. > > I would love to see NetBSD/alpha drivers for that board...I'd put an > RL02 (or maybe an RK07!) on one my Alphas! 8-) > > -Dave > Pricey beasts, those bridges. Looked into that a few years ago when my company was thinking of replacing the 11/45's with the Osprey board. Unibus bridges were about $2500 each. -nick From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu Dec 13 15:10:10 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Cats around computers Message-ID: Do you (or someone you know) have a pet guinea pig? They were originally domesticated and raised as food, in Peru. I must say a good barbequed cuy (which is what they are called there) is quite tasty, though not much meat on them. -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 1:24 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Cats around computers On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to > old Rocket J. himself... Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 13 17:48:54 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: OT: Re: OT: RE: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > Do you (or someone you know) have a pet guinea pig? They were > originally domesticated and raised as food, in Peru. I must say a good > barbequed cuy (which is what they are called there) is quite tasty, > though not much meat on them. Being mostly a vegetarian, I passed up a chance to try some when I was there, but those in the group who did venture a try professed their tastiness. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 13:44:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: RIP: Betty Holberton In-Reply-To: <20011213045603.28171.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 12, 1 08:56:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 282 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/8a662884/attachment.ksh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 18:14:06 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <3C18D6EE.2080307@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3C191791.D1E85E21@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C17F2CE.198DCBB7@jetnet.ab.ca> Bill McDermith wrote: > > Perhaps today when you can pack arbitrarily large amounts of > hardware on a chip, memory is (practically) free, we (mostly) all > have internet connections, disks are gigantic, and computer > systems are cheap (er, inexpensive), it's hard to understand the > pdp-8 and contemporary computers... ;-) But I ask the question is bigger always better? I am the guy who still uses 640x480 cause this way he can read the screen and the menus at the same time. I suspect the wheel of computer design will turn again towards 'smaller' CISC (pdp8-style?) machines as the interconnect in chips between modules is becoming larger compared to the the gate speeds. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 13 15:58:59 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:55 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Mark Crispin "re: [PDP8-Lovers] if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8" (Dec 13, 9:26) References: Message-ID: <10112132158.ZM17614@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 13, 9:26, Mark Crispin wrote: > Unique? Quite a few processors of that time had a store-PC-and-jump type of > subroutine call. The beloved PDP-10 had three (JSR, JSP, JSA/JRA) and > subsequent enhancements added more (JSYS, XPCW); yet it also had stacks from > its inception. > > Contemporary programming languages, such as BASIC and FORTRAN, did not use > stack subroutines. It's possible that modern BASIC and FORTRAN compilers may > permit recursive subroutine calls, but doing so is still prohibited by the > language specification. Now you know why. That's not wholly true; FORTRAN prior to FORTRAN-90 prohibits recursion but it's a required feature in FORTRAN 90. I don't believe it's actually prohibited in BASIC of the mid-to-late 60's. There were certainly inplementations in the early 70s that allowed it, and it's a feature of the modern standards (both de-facto and ANSI). Recursion was also a (required) feature of ALGOL in 1958, and its successors, as was stack-based evaluation. However, in support of Mark, it's worth noting that the main reason there's no recursion allowed in FORTRAN, and it almost was omitted from the original ALGOL spec, was that it was hard for people to understand how it could be implemented across a variety of architectures. Stacks had been around since the mid-50s but lots of machines provided no specific support for them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dmc!njc at ns2.ezwind.net Thu Dec 13 16:00:10 2001 From: dmc!njc at ns2.ezwind.net (dmc!njc@ns2.ezwind.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C191791.D1E85E21@yahoo.com> from "Bill McDermith" at Dec 13, 2001 02:03:13 PM Message-ID: <200112132200.RAA04036@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Bill McDermith > >Perhaps today when you can pack arbitrarily large amounts of >hardware on a chip, memory is (practically) free, we (mostly) all >have internet connections, disks are gigantic, and computer >systems are cheap (er, inexpensive), it's hard to understand the >pdp-8 and contemporary computers... ;-) This is something I get hit with on a daily basis. On the one hand I need to have better than 64M for Windows!?! But my PIC projects barely need the 1024 bytes of ROM/128 bytes of RAM. I often wonder if 16M of RAM will be enough for my VAX to run. Then I realize that it's not a Windows machine and I'm happy again. :-) One of these days I'll get a chance to get my VAX's up and running! -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 18:48:50 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <200112132200.RAA04036@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: <3C17FAF2.27F8EC20@jetnet.ab.ca> dmc!njc@ns2.ezwind.net wrote: > This is something I get hit with on a daily basis. On the one hand I need > to have better than 64M for Windows!?! But my PIC projects barely need the > 1024 bytes of ROM/128 bytes of RAM. I often wonder if 16M of RAM will be > enough for my VAX to run. Then I realize that it's not a Windows machine > and I'm happy again. :-) Remember Linux too needs lots of memory. With >16 meg on a video card your OS needs about 16x that. It is the video display that is the killer. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 17:14:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C17FAF2.27F8EC20@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Dec 12, 1 05:48:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 248 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/7c469d22/attachment.ksh From ncherry at home.com Thu Dec 13 17:49:37 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <200112132200.RAA04036@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <3C17FAF2.27F8EC20@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3C193E91.46695679@home.com> Ben Franchuk wrote: > > dmc!njc@ns2.ezwind.net wrote: > > This is something I get hit with on a daily basis. On the one hand I need > > to have better than 64M for Windows!?! But my PIC projects barely need the > > 1024 bytes of ROM/128 bytes of RAM. I often wonder if 16M of RAM will be > > enough for my VAX to run. Then I realize that it's not a Windows machine > > and I'm happy again. :-) > Remember Linux too needs lots of memory. With >16 meg on a video card > your OS needs about 16x that. It is the video display that is the > killer. I have Linux running on many boxes and they don't need a lot of memory. The RedHat 7.x install requires I use a lot of memory but most of my lab boxes are 16M and a 540M disk. They're just servers. The only reason I've upgrade from 32M to 64 to 384M was Mozilla is such a pig. But I do like the fact that I can compile the kernel and use X to surf the net without hitting swap (memory was cheap enough to allow the cost). I don't remember how much memory is on the video board anymore. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 13 18:02:06 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C17FAF2.27F8EC20@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Remember Linux too needs lots of memory. With >16 meg on a video card > your OS needs about 16x that. It is the video display that is the > killer. BZZZT!! Wrong. Linux *likes* lots of memory. I can show you X running on a 386SX with 12M and a 1M video card. Not just a demo; that's my friend's firewall. Of course, it's a LOT more fun on an Athlon XP with a 64M GeForce & .5G RAM.... Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 18:09:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Re: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 (Doc) References: <3C17FAF2.27F8EC20@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15385.17231.214050.855003@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Doc wrote: > > Remember Linux too needs lots of memory. With >16 meg on a video card > > your OS needs about 16x that. It is the video display that is the > > killer. > > BZZZT!! Wrong. > > Linux *likes* lots of memory. I can show you X running on a 386SX with > 12M and a 1M video card. Not just a demo; that's my friend's firewall. A firewall with a video card? Gotta love them PCs. ;) But yes, I agree...Linux can be made to work well on machines with small quantities of memory. It's actually pretty good at it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 13 18:46:34 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <15385.17231.214050.855003@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > A firewall with a video card? Gotta love them PCs. ;) Yeah... Most distros don't even have a headless install option, and not all PCs will even complete a POST without a video card. But more relevant is the fact that hardly anybody I know, even the geeks, knows what a null-modem cable is for, let alone own a serial terminal. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 18:58:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Re: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 (Doc) References: <15385.17231.214050.855003@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15385.20151.844488.415850@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Doc wrote: > > A firewall with a video card? Gotta love them PCs. ;) > > Yeah... Most distros don't even have a headless install option, and not > all PCs will even complete a POST without a video card. But more > relevant is the fact that hardly anybody I know, even the geeks, knows > what a null-modem cable is for, let alone own a serial terminal. Fear. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 13 19:44:21 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <15385.17231.214050.855003@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 13, 1 07:09:51 pm" Message-ID: <200112140144.RAA13048@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > But yes, I agree...Linux can be made to work well on machines with > small quantities of memory. It's actually pretty good at it. Hey! Don't forget about ... *waves NetBSD flag frantically* -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Death to spammers! http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ ----------------------------- From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Dec 13 19:23:31 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C193E91.46695679@home.com> References: <200112132200.RAA04036@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <3C17FAF2.27F8EC20@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214122140.02b94e18@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 06:49 PM 13/12/2001 -0500, Neil Cherry wrote: >I have Linux running on many boxes and they don't need a lot of memory. >The RedHat 7.x install requires I use a lot of memory but most of my >lab boxes are 16M and a 540M disk. I've got a Linux box next to me with 32Mb RAM, 16Mb non-volatile storage running linux with a windowing system and applications including a web browser, mp3 player, mpeg player etc. Linux doesn't have to be big. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Dec 13 18:53:18 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: Message-ID: <3C194D7E.5BE4D224@tiac.net> The HP211x processors use the same subroutine scheme, all the way up to the later 2113's and 2117's. Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk wrote: > I think the IBM S/360 was 'stack challenged' too, iirc > > //Rich > > Hi, > > I found this really interesting: The PDP-8 has no concept of a > stack. It does have sub-routines though. Instead of pushing the > instruction pointer onto a stack, it's being written at the > location to which the call is directed (first address of the > subroutine). Then a return is simply an indirect jump to that > first address of the subroutine. > > This is hillarious! Wasn't the notion of a stack arond already > before 1965? > > fun stuff, isn't it? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 12:49:12 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B30@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to old Rocket J. himself... -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 13:24:01 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Cats around computers (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B30@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15385.81.854434.358525@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to > old Rocket J. himself... Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Dec 13 13:53:10 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <15385.81.854434.358525@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 13, 01 02:24:01 pm Message-ID: <200112131953.OAA20809@wordstock.com> > > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > > > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > > > Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to > > old Rocket J. himself... > > Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) > Anyone watch FoodTV? I think the show was called Xtreme Food.. One section showed the guys hunting in their backyard.. Shooting some squirrel.. And how to cook it... It was called "Squirrel Fricasse" This really was on TV.. HONEST! I think this was in Louisana... But what looked good was the deep-fried wild turkey. Cheers, Bryan P.S. I wonder what kind of wine goes good with squirrel? A couple of bottles before it is set down in front of you??! From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Dec 13 13:55:54 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers References: Message-ID: <3C1907CA.DBD62408@verizon.net> Doc wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > My wife sews (a lot!) and every now and then one of the cats will try to > > eat some thread. One day we heard one of them making strange noises at > > the litterbox. It turns out the cat had eaten a long thread, and it was > > making its way out. We had to pull it out (slowly, to avoid internal > > injuries to the cat and external injuries to us). There was at least a > > foot of thread in there. > > OK. This is getting very near the "Too Much Information" category.... Yes, it's akin the the thanks-for-sharing...but please stop now! Eric > > > Doc From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 13:58:00 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B35@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > > > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > > > Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to > > old Rocket J. himself... > > Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) Ok, Ok, you're right, you *won't* find it on the menu down at Mickey D's... or Hardups... or Snake n Shake... or Food Lion... BTW, now that you're _down south_, has anyone turned you onto the burgers at Crystal's ? -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 14:59:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Cats around computers (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B35@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15385.5811.673852.102726@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > > > > > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > > > > > Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to > > > old Rocket J. himself... > > > > Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) > > Ok, Ok, you're right, you *won't* find it on the menu > down at Mickey D's... or Hardups... or Snake n Shake... > or Food Lion... Yes. But I maintain that squirrels are NOT FOOD not because you won't find them in Food Lion...but you won't find them in Food Lion because they're NOT FOOD. :) > BTW, now that you're _down south_, has anyone turned > you onto the burgers at Crystal's ? I don't believe I've had them yet, no...are they good? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 14:51:38 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B36@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) > > > > Anyone watch FoodTV? I think the show was called Xtreme Food.. One section > showed the guys hunting in their backyard.. Shooting some squirrel.. And how > to cook it... It was called "Squirrel Fricasse" This really was on TV.. > HONEST! I think this was in Louisana... My Zoology prof claimed to have eaten just about eberything on the planet that people make a regular habit of eating... grubs were the first thing he mentioned. > But what looked good was the deep-fried wild turkey. Dunno about wild, but Bob&Tom's domestic deep-fry recipie is a big winner around here... > P.S. I wonder what kind of wine goes good with squirrel? A > couple of bottles before it is set down in front of you??! Oh, Ripple, Richard's, MD2020 if you need Kosher... -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 15:16:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Cats around computers (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B36@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15385.6809.204200.248496@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > My Zoology prof claimed to have eaten just about > eberything on the planet that people make a regular > habit of eating... grubs were the first thing he > mentioned. Fear. I will never understand the "I am cool because I eat, and pretend to like, things that gross most people out" mentality. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 15:44:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B3C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > > > > > > > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > > > > > > > Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to > > > > old Rocket J. himself... > > > > > > Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) > > > > Ok, Ok, you're right, you *won't* find it on the menu > > down at Mickey D's... or Hardups... or Snake n Shake... > > or Food Lion... > > Yes. But I maintain that squirrels are NOT FOOD not because you > won't find them in Food Lion...but you won't find them in Food Lion > because they're NOT FOOD. :) > > > BTW, now that you're _down south_, has anyone turned > > you onto the burgers at Crystal's ? > > I don't believe I've had them yet, no...are they good? > They're sometimes known as "southern sliders"... when you see them, you'll know why... And re: squirrels, lemme tell ya, I wouldn't be alive if they *weren't* food... there were times when squirrel wasn't the usual delicacy, but the only damned thing my ancestors could find to eat. -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 16:02:36 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Cats around computers (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B3C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15385.9596.744188.140405@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > BTW, now that you're _down south_, has anyone turned > > > you onto the burgers at Crystal's ? > > > > I don't believe I've had them yet, no...are they good? > > They're sometimes known as "southern sliders"... when you > see them, you'll know why... I will try some. :-) > And re: squirrels, lemme tell ya, I wouldn't be alive > if they *weren't* food... there were times when squirrel > wasn't the usual delicacy, but the only damned thing my > ancestors could find to eat. Oh yes, my ancestors too...but as long as it was THEM and not ME! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 15:51:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B3D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > My Zoology prof claimed to have eaten just about > > eberything on the planet that people make a regular > > habit of eating... grubs were the first thing he > > mentioned. > > Fear. > > I will never understand the "I am cool because I eat, and pretend to > like, things that gross most people out" mentality. Well, although he was a zoologist, I'd agree it's a stretch (wants to know about animals so eats them), but for all I know, he may have wanted to be an anthropologist. It would be quite appropriate and understandable for one o' them to want to give everything a try... He had cancer back in those days, beat it, but I've no idea whether he's still around or not. We never, ever saw him down in the computer center, even though we had some applications we support for the biology department (bringing us back to classic computers). If he ever took to computers, they'd probably have been Macintoshes... -dq From at258 at osfn.org Thu Dec 13 20:20:50 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <15384.60980.224188.661367@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I suppose that means you wouldn't want to borrow my Rat Archduke recipe? On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 12:37:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 12, 1 05:26:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 941 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/a8e81bd9/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 13 16:41:38 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > However, I am not sure the picture in the TechRef is a CoCo joystick. I > doubt that Radio Shack actually made their own joystick mechanisms, and > it's quite possible that the company that did also made them, differently > wired, for the PC. In the U.S. at least, IBM NEVER had a joystick. The drawing in the tech ref is definitely the same as the Coco one, but I have no way of knowing whether they drew a Coco one, or drew one by obtaining one from the same supplier who made them for Tandy. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 17:16:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 13, 1 02:41:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/de55154a/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 18:07:57 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > In the U.S. at least, IBM NEVER had a joystick. > >Did they ever sell one for the PC-jr? That machine had a 2 row header >plug for the joystick port, and it's not totally trivial to get a socket >that will fit it.... Yes, IBM sold a joystick for the PCjr. I've got a set of them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 13 18:15:26 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > However, I am not sure the picture in the TechRef is a CoCo joystick. I > > In the U.S. at least, IBM NEVER had a joystick. > Did they ever sell one for the PC-jr? That machine had a 2 row header > plug for the joystick port, and it's not totally trivial to get a socket > that will fit it.... > IIRC the PC-jr joystick interface is identical electrically to the PC > one, so the same joystick mechanism would work with both machines. Maybe > that's the one IBM showed in the PC O&A TechRef. 1) I have never seen a joystick for the jr that had ANY resemblance in appearance to it. 2) The TechRef in question was from 1981 (the original release of the PC 5150), LONG before the jr was even imagined. I'm assuming that the drawing was intended to be a generic picture of a joystick ("to be purchased after-market"), and that their artist simply happened to use the RS one as a sample. From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 13 17:57:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > However, I am not sure the picture in the TechRef is a CoCo joystick. I > > doubt that Radio Shack actually made their own joystick mechanisms, and > > it's quite possible that the company that did also made them, differently > > wired, for the PC. > > In the U.S. at least, IBM NEVER had a joystick. The drawing in the > tech ref is definitely the same as the Coco one, but I have no way of > knowing whether they drew a Coco one, or drew one by obtaining one > from the same supplier who made them for Tandy. I can say with absolute certainty that there was an IBM branded joystick both for the PC and the PCjr (with the appropriate connectors) as I have both. And as far as I know, these came from the U.S. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 13 18:23:16 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I can say with absolute certainty that there was an IBM branded joystick > both for the PC and the PCjr (with the appropriate connectors) as I have > both. And as far as I know, these came from the U.S. Ah HA! Did it physically resemble the Radio Shack Coco one and/or the drawing in the early PC Tech Ref? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 12:39:35 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B2C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > No problem, just file a notch in your "analog" cassette. ;) > > I'm not sure that would work, but given the improved resolution, etc, in > cassette tapes during the last several years, it just may. Actually, I remember reading an ancient article about how this wasn't the case; I'm sure someone less senile can recall the exact details, but dropouts in particular couldn't be tolerated by digital systems, where the ear (mind) will just ignore many audio inconsistencies... -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 13 13:22:54 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFAA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > I remember reading an ancient article about how this wasn't > the case; I'm sure someone less senile can recall the exact > details, but dropouts in particular couldn't be tolerated > by digital systems, where the ear (mind) will just ignore > many audio inconsistencies... I'm sure it could tolerate them fine if it had any decent error-correction mechanisim built in. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 13 14:42:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFA3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 13, 1 10:06:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 630 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/9455918e/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 16:03:11 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B17@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Maybe, but doubtful. This was more of a tape backup device. It uses > > DIGITAL cassettes. If you've never seen one, they have a square notch > > just off the center of the top of the cassette, and they have two slide > > tabs to turn write-protection on/off. Otherwise, it looks just like a > > regular analog cassette tape. > > Yeah, I've got a drive from an old Burroughs teller machine... > > Had a bunch of Burroughs stuff I dumped about five years > ago, though I still have a direct-wire 1200 baud modem... I have a complete (almost working) Burroughs computer. Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 13 16:21:17 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFAF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > > > just off the center of the top of the cassette, and they have > > > two slide > > > tabs to turn write-protection on/off. Otherwise, it > looks just like a > > > regular analog cassette tape. > > No problem, just file a notch in your "analog" cassette. ;) > Is your data really worth that _little_ that it's not worth > buying the > right tape? Well, any data I'd consider storing on such a strange, you-probably-won't-see-another, device would have to be worth very little, or, more likely, backed up onto CD, DAT, or 8MM. :) That, and where do you suggest one should get "digital cassette" these days? > > I'm not sure that would work, but given the improved > resolution, etc, in > > cassette tapes during the last several years, it just may. > I am pretty sure the coercivity of the tape in the 'digital' > cassettes is > considerably high that that of the tape in normal audio cassettes... Well, again, cassettes have gotten better. Depending on the age of this "digital cassette" technology, it might substitute in a pinch. Speaking of which, anyone remember anything about the VHS tape backup devices? Capacity, systems they'd work with, etc? A friend and I were discussing these a few days ago. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 20:49:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Re: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 (Cameron Kaiser) References: <15385.17231.214050.855003@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200112140144.RAA13048@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <15385.26805.533873.304318@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > But yes, I agree...Linux can be made to work well on machines with > > small quantities of memory. It's actually pretty good at it. > > Hey! Don't forget about ... *waves NetBSD flag frantically* Oh yes, most definitely...I run NetBSD in production at a number of sites, and it's wonderful. I only mentioned Linux specifically because we were specifically discussing Linux. While I like Linux a LOT, I don't consider it production-ready enough to bet my dinner on it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jss at subatomix.com Thu Dec 13 20:48:11 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011213203738.R76924-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> My first post seems to be from 1996/10/08. I am, quite simply, not worthy. I *did* discover my first e-mail address, jsharp@sirinet.net, about which I had forgotten. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Dec 13 20:54:36 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Couple of items available . . . Message-ID: <4.1.20011213214434.00bb6660@206.231.8.2> I've got four Iomega Bournoulli Boxes, model A210H, if anybody wants them. I can maybe think of a few bits to swap for them but that doesn't matter. I just need the room (as several list members who've visited us can attest) and want them to go to a new home. I can ship but just reimburse me for the shipping cost and maybe purchase of a proper shipping carton or two as needed. Seem to weigh 15 to 20 lbs. each. Zip code 14701. Also, any interest in several IBM 3287 printers? Dot matrix 132 column page printers which use SNA network interface. Thanks, Chris -- -- NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Dec 13 20:55:08 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213185442.042209f0@mail.zipcon.net> If you don't have the Xenix system floppies, you're gonna want them when the HD fails.... At 12:35 AM 12/13/01 -0600, you wrote: >If the disks are the Xenix system disks, then don't spend too much time >looking for them. The hard disk has it installed. But if you have a Tandy >terminal for it, I'd really like to have that. The computer hasn't arrived >yet, but I have a feeling I'm really going to love it. > >Thanks, >Owen > >on 12/12/01 2:41 PM, Merle K. Peirce at at258@osfn.org wrote: > > > > > You know, we might havew a spare terminal. I'd have to look. I'm pretty > > sure we might have the disks somewhere, too, but it would take some > > serious digging and we'd have to get our 6000 up and run ning. Rather > a nice > > little system, isn't it? > > > > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Owen Robertson wrote: > > > >> I am very happy today - I'm finally getting a TRS-80 Model 6000! Anyway I > >> was wondering if anyone has any software for it (it runs Xenix, which it > >> has), or the hardware manual, as I am only getting the Xenix manuals. > And if > >> anyone has one of those neat little TRS-80 DT-1 terminals for it, I'd love > >> that. > >> > >> > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 13 20:47:31 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Dec 13, 2001 09:26:30 AM Message-ID: <200112140247.VAA15689@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mark Crispin once stated: > > Contemporary programming languages, such as BASIC and FORTRAN, did not use > stack subroutines. It's possible that modern BASIC and FORTRAN compilers may > permit recursive subroutine calls, but doing so is still prohibited by the > language specification. Now you know why. > > Stacks are very useful, but they are not the solution to everything. One of > the biggest deficiencies of C is its lack of co-routines, since it only has > the stack style of subroutine calling. Yeah, I know about setjmp/longjmp, but > > those are one-way, not true co-routines. > > Of course, talking about co-routines to youngsters is likely to get their eyes > to glaze over, since they won't have a clue as to what I'm talking about. So what, exactly is a co-routine? I've heard the term before, but I'm not entirely sure what they are, or how they would work. -spc (I may have used them in assembly, but not knew the proper term ... ) From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 13 05:44:15 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: <000d01c183c7$2ef17070$de2c67cb@helpdesk> References: <3C183B96.AEFAF37@internet1.net> <000d01c183c7$2ef17070$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <01Dec13.145623est.119448@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I don't even want to meet a Brown Recluse. The unfortunate thing about the brown recluse is that you likely won't see it before it bites you and the insides of equipment that has been out in a shed or something similar is a good place for them. I'm no longer sure what areas they're common in, but the Ozark mountains of southern Missouri has their share of them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 13:51:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: Re: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) (Jeff Hellige) References: <3C183B96.AEFAF37@internet1.net> <000d01c183c7$2ef17070$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <01Dec13.145623est.119448@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <15385.1732.744061.498265@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Jeff Hellige wrote: > The unfortunate thing about the brown recluse is that you > likely won't see it before it bites you and the insides of equipment > that has been out in a shed or something similar is a good place for > them. I'm no longer sure what areas they're common in, but the Ozark > mountains of southern Missouri has their share of them. I found two in my basement in Laurel MD, Jeff... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 13 15:33:08 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) In-Reply-To: <15385.1732.744061.498265@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I had one in a pair of old coveralls that bit my leg when I lived in Las Vegas and have seen one here in the 3 yrs we've been in this house, but outside the house. The fiddle is on their back. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 1:52 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around -> computers) -> -> -> On December 13, Jeff Hellige wrote: -> > The unfortunate thing about the brown recluse is that you -> > likely won't see it before it bites you and the insides of equipment -> > that has been out in a shed or something similar is a good place for -> > them. I'm no longer sure what areas they're common in, but the Ozark -> > mountains of southern Missouri has their share of them. -> -> I found two in my basement in Laurel MD, Jeff... -> -> -Dave -> -> -- -> Dave McGuire -> St. Petersburg, FL -> From mldrew at drewtech.com Thu Dec 13 16:35:20 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Michael L. Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers) References: Message-ID: <3C192D28.225AE64A@drewtech.com> These are really nasty little buggers... One bit me on the shin, just above my boot... Never felt a thing. Stage 1 (bite +6 hours) was like a mosquito bite. Stage 2 (bite + 12 hours) was like someone had implanted a red hot golf ball in my leg. Stage 3 (bite + 36 hours) was swelling and redness to the knee. I really hate going to the doctor and will do almost anything to avoid it. I couldn't get there fast enough with this thing... I could literally watch my leg swelling up! The docs were worried that I might start shedding red blood cells so they took blood every day for a week and had me on some of the biggest pills I have ever seen. One of them was for people with leprosy! In the end, I had a hole about the size of a quarter in my leg that went all the way to the bone and took months to heal... The toxin in a brown recluse venom kills all tissue and can cause your red blood cells to suddenly die off. Bite can be deadly, even to large adults! I hope to never see one again! (not that I saw it the first time!) Russ Blakeman wrote: > I had one in a pair of old coveralls that bit my leg when I lived in Las > Vegas and have seen one here in the 3 yrs we've been in this house, but > outside the house. The fiddle is on their back. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 1:52 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around > -> computers) > -> > -> > -> On December 13, Jeff Hellige wrote: > -> > The unfortunate thing about the brown recluse is that you > -> > likely won't see it before it bites you and the insides of equipment > -> > that has been out in a shed or something similar is a good place for > -> > them. I'm no longer sure what areas they're common in, but the Ozark > -> > mountains of southern Missouri has their share of them. > -> > -> I found two in my basement in Laurel MD, Jeff... > -> > -> -Dave > -> > -> -- > -> Dave McGuire > -> St. Petersburg, FL > -> -- =============================================================================== Michael L. Drew Drew Technologies, Inc. 41 Enterprise Drive Ann Arbor, MI 48103 Phone: (734) 623-8080 Fax: (734) 623-8082 =============================================================================== From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 12:44:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B2E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I've seen the brown recluse in my home, among several > > other species. Can't always tell which is which but I > > can tell that some are different from others. > > The brown recluse has a very clear fiddle mark on their body. You can't > mistake them for anything else. I've found them in camp showers (eeek). > They are unpleasantly fond of human company. I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) or have perfect vision, and aren't near-sighted... that or you wear contacts or always wear your glasses.... anything further away than a monitor screen is *usually* a complete blue for me. Plus, isn't the fiddle on their stomach? Should I ask the spider to "present, front and center" so i can check? ;) > The wolf spider is frequently mistaken for a brown recluse even though > they're grey, not brown; they're considerably larger; and they definitely > don't have the fiddle marking. This is unfortunate since people take > shoes and other implements to wolf spiders who are good to have in the > house as they keep insects down to a minimum, and don't bother people. The wolfs are probably what I've got, then... -dq From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 13 14:25:02 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters)) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B2E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Dec 13, 2001 01:44:07 pm" Message-ID: <200112132025.MAA06991@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be someone who can only hear things far away. > Plus, isn't the fiddle on their stomach? Should I ask the spider > to "present, front and center" so i can check? Definitely on the back, hence the common name fiddleback spider. Eric From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 13 16:48:43 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:56 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters)) In-Reply-To: <200112132025.MAA06991@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "Dec 13, 1 12:25:02 pm" Message-ID: <200112132248.OAA12052@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) > > Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be > someone who can only hear things far away. Neither: Hyperopic == far-sighted Myopic == near-sighted While presbyopia is a problem with near-vision accomodation, it is related to the lens, not the eye length. Hyperopia and myopia both have alterations in the length of the eye's horizontal axis (too short and too long respectively) such that light is no longer properly focused on the retina. A deformed cornea can also cause either condition since the vast majority of the focusing power of the eye is generated by the cornea, not by the lens. In contrast, presbyopia indicates an age-acquired inflexible lens that can no longer alter its shape for close-up work. Oh, and while we're at it, we call it "presbycusis" for old fart hearing deficiency. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- "Closing Time" From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 13 16:54:31 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B2E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Dec 13, 1 01:44:07 pm" Message-ID: <200112132254.OAA10566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > The brown recluse has a very clear fiddle mark on their body. You can't > > mistake them for anything else. I've found them in camp showers (eeek). > > They are unpleasantly fond of human company. > Plus, isn't the fiddle on their stomach? Nope, right on top. Honest -- you can't miss it, even with "can't see anything further than a monitor" vision ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The best of all: God is with us. -- John Wesley ---------------------------- From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 12:44:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B2F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I've seen the brown recluse in my home, among several > > other species. Can't always tell which is which but I > > can tell that some are different from others. > > The brown recluse has a very clear fiddle mark on their body. You can't > mistake them for anything else. I've found them in camp showers (eeek). > They are unpleasantly fond of human company. Following up on my last remarks, then I was younger, I could see better, that's when I recalled seeing the fiddle in the house. Plus, I do seem to recall it being on the underside of the thingie... -dq From jss at subatomix.com Thu Dec 13 15:07:55 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) In-Reply-To: <200112131653.IAA08050@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20011213150703.M76324-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is unfortunate since people take shoes and other implements to > wolf spiders who are good to have in the house as they keep insects > down to a minimum, and don't bother people. Anything in my house with more than four legs dies. It's as simple as that. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 15:19:22 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) In-Reply-To: Re: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <200112131653.IAA08050@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <20011213150703.M76324-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15385.7002.354439.902145@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > This is unfortunate since people take shoes and other implements to > > wolf spiders who are good to have in the house as they keep insects > > down to a minimum, and don't bother people. > > Anything in my house with more than four legs dies. It's as simple as > that. I with you there, Jeff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 15:52:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B3E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > This is unfortunate since people take shoes and other implements to > > wolf spiders who are good to have in the house as they keep insects > > down to a minimum, and don't bother people. > > Anything in my house with more than four legs dies. It's as simple as > that. So, the beast with two backs never makes itself seen in your home? ;) -dq From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 16:10:48 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) In-Reply-To: <200112131653.IAA08050@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The wolf spider is frequently mistaken for a brown recluse even though > they're grey, not brown; they're considerably larger; and they definitely > don't have the fiddle marking. This is unfortunate since people take > shoes and other implements to wolf spiders who are good to have in the > house as they keep insects down to a minimum, and don't bother people. I wouldn't say they *never* bother people. I was bitten by a very large wolf spider once, and it screwed me up for a couple of weeks. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 13 17:25:24 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I wouldn't say they *never* bother people. I was bitten by a very large > wolf spider once, and it screwed me up for a couple of weeks. Does it cause Sridharopia? On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...and Sridharopia is the desire to hack on a 1GHz PDP11 in a > storage locker with an electric heater using an old DOS box as a > terminal! :-) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Dec 13 15:14:23 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters)) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B37@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) > > Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be > someone who can only hear things far away. I had not a *clue* how to spell it... how funny that the mispelling turned out to be something! > > Plus, isn't the fiddle on their stomach? Should I ask the spider > > to "present, front and center" so i can check? > > Definitely on the back, hence the common name fiddleback spider. hadn't heard that name might explain why I was able to see them when I was younger tho... but I saw all kinds of things in those "paisley days".... From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Dec 13 15:46:32 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters)) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B37@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011213215412.CJQJ11276.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I'm with the 'more than four dies' crowd. We have tons of wolf spiders in the basement and elsewhere. They are black, not brown, and grow considerably larger than the recluse. The recluse is easily recognizable by a 'fiddle' on it's back. They say it looks like a fiddle/violin and I suppose it does a little. Another way to recognize a brown recluse is by it's bite. If the area bitten starts to disintegrate and expand to the size of a softball then there is your recluse. I'm sure there is variance as to an individual's reactions to the recluse's bite, but all the folks I know who have been bitten knew it and have the scars to show for it. One girl I met at a club was bitten on the face. She went through several surguries to get things close to right again. I think my soon-to-be ex-wife Chrissy was bitten once a few years ago. The breakers in the building blew so I did the stealth monster deal and crawled through a window in the basement to reset the breakers. She was very greatful and when I returned through her arms around me, gave me a kiss and screamed. We very quickly discovered a little hole of a spider bite. Over the days and weeks it collapsed and dissolved, expanding from a prick to the size of a silver dollar coin. It eventually healed but you can still see the marks years later. This bite was on her right shoulder-blade. In <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B37@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>, on 12/13/01 at 04:14 PM, Douglas Quebbeman said: >> > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) >> >> Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be >> someone who can only hear things far away. >I had not a *clue* how to spell it... how funny that the >mispelling turned out to be something! >> > Plus, isn't the fiddle on their stomach? Should I ask the spider >> > to "present, front and center" so i can check? >> >> Definitely on the back, hence the common name fiddleback spider. >hadn't heard that name might explain why I was able to see >them when I was younger tho... but I saw all kinds of things in those >"paisley days".... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 16:35:12 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters)) In-Reply-To: <20011213215412.CJQJ11276.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: > >> > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) > >> > >> Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be > >> someone who can only hear things far away. Actually, neither of you are right. Presbyopia is not being able to see near or far due to lack of accomodative ability caused by age. Farsightedness is hyperopia. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 16:49:48 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters)) In-Reply-To: RE: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters)) (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <20011213215412.CJQJ11276.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <15385.12428.474352.323341@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > >> > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) > > >> > > >> Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be > > >> someone who can only hear things far away. > > Actually, neither of you are right. Presbyopia is not being able to see > near or far due to lack of accomodative ability caused by age. > Farsightedness is hyperopia. ...and Sridharopia is the desire to hack on a 1GHz PDP11 in a storage locker with an electric heater using an old DOS box as a terminal! :-) There, that was at least *closer* to being on-topic! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 13 16:12:03 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B37@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165933.029487d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Douglas Quebbeman may have mentioned these words: > > > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) > > > > Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be > > someone who can only hear things far away. Hmmm... from my High School biology & health classes, I seem to recall that myopia is nearsightedness, *hyperopia* was farsightedness, and I thought that presbyopia was either someone who can see near & far but not in between, or someone that could not see near or far, but what was in between was in focus... but that was a long time ago... and the health field changes faster than the computer field... (I was amazed seeing back 80-90 years ago that over 50% of the folks that died in my town were diagnosed with "consumption"... I wonder what consumed them? Maybe squirrels??? ;-) > > > Plus, isn't the fiddle on their stomach? Should I ask the spider > > > to "present, front and center" so i can check? > > > > Definitely on the back, hence the common name fiddleback spider. Makes me *very* happy to be in Northern Michigan - other than a rumor every 10 years or so of a rattlesnake being seen, hardly anything poisonous other than wasps & bumblebees is able to survive up here... :-) Oh, and my grandma was born/raised in the foothills of Kentucky -- if it didn't crawl away fast enough, it was dinner. I've eaten squirrel that my brother & I shot (small red squirrels) - it's *very* tasty, but you'd best have a *lot* of them! I've also had muskrat, beaver, raccoon, squid, deer (venison - my dad just shot one this morning!! Yum!), bear, moose, buffalo, elk, wild boar.... usw. And yes, cow's tongue is very good also, when prepared correctly, but I never did acquire a taste for the pickled pork hocks... I don't "pretend" what I like, because I like most everything. Yes, it's offtopic, but I just thought I'd include that for those here who are squeamish... ;^> "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 18:50:35 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking aroundcomputers)) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165933.029487d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3C17FB5B.8F34CE80@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Rumor has it that Douglas Quebbeman may have mentioned these words: > > > > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) > > > > > > Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be > > > someone who can only hear things far away. > > Hmmm... from my High School biology & health classes, I seem to recall that > myopia is nearsightedness, *hyperopia* was farsightedness, and I thought > that presbyopia was either someone who can see near & far but not in > between, or someone that could not see near or far, but what was in between > was in focus... but that was a long time ago... and the health field > changes faster than the computer field... (I was amazed seeing back 80-90 > years ago that over 50% of the folks that died in my town were diagnosed > with "consumption"... I wonder what consumed them? Maybe squirrels??? ;-) I allways thought "consumption" was TB. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 13 17:02:10 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165933.029487d8@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Dec 13, 1 05:12:03 pm" Message-ID: <200112132302.PAA12260@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > (I was amazed seeing back 80-90 > years ago that over 50% of the folks that died in my town were diagnosed > with "consumption"... I wonder what consumed them? Maybe squirrels??? ;-) 'Consumption' was an old term for tuberculosis. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. -- Gen. O. N. Bradley From donm at cts.com Thu Dec 13 17:23:48 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165933.029487d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Douglas Quebbeman may have mentioned these words: > > > > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) > > > > > > Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be > > > someone who can only hear things far away. > > Hmmm... from my High School biology & health classes, I seem to recall that > myopia is nearsightedness, *hyperopia* was farsightedness, and I thought > that presbyopia was either someone who can see near & far but not in > between, or someone that could not see near or far, but what was in between > was in focus... but that was a long time ago... and the health field No, presbyopia is the loss of accomodation and is the reason that many of us old farts wear bifocals. We have lost (much of) the normal ability to `warp' our eyeballs and force them to change their focal length. - don > changes faster than the computer field... (I was amazed seeing back 80-90 > years ago that over 50% of the folks that died in my town were diagnosed > with "consumption"... I wonder what consumed them? Maybe squirrels??? ;-) > > > > > Plus, isn't the fiddle on their stomach? Should I ask the spider > > > > to "present, front and center" so i can check? > > > > > > Definitely on the back, hence the common name fiddleback spider. > > Makes me *very* happy to be in Northern Michigan - other than a rumor every > 10 years or so of a rattlesnake being seen, hardly anything poisonous other > than wasps & bumblebees is able to survive up here... :-) > > Oh, and my grandma was born/raised in the foothills of Kentucky -- if it > didn't crawl away fast enough, it was dinner. I've eaten squirrel that my > brother & I shot (small red squirrels) - it's *very* tasty, but you'd best > have a *lot* of them! I've also had muskrat, beaver, raccoon, squid, deer > (venison - my dad just shot one this morning!! Yum!), bear, moose, buffalo, > elk, wild boar.... usw. > > And yes, cow's tongue is very good also, when prepared correctly, but I > never did acquire a taste for the pickled pork hocks... I don't "pretend" > what I like, because I like most everything. > > Yes, it's offtopic, but I just thought I'd include that for those here who > are squeamish... ;^> > > "Merch" > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. > > (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on > their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Dec 13 19:03:53 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > between, or someone that could not see near or far, but what was in between > > was in focus... but that was a long time ago... and the health field > > No, presbyopia is the loss of accomodation and is the reason that many > of us old farts wear bifocals. We have lost (much of) the normal > ability to `warp' our eyeballs and force them to change their focal > length. > - don Oh I don't know about that. Some of you old codgers strike me as pretty warped without the bifocals. :) *gd&r* g. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 13 18:20:51 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > Oh I don't know about that. Some of you old codgers strike me as pretty > warped without the bifocals. :) *gd&r* We resemble that alligator. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Dec 13 20:48:43 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165933.029487d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Well squid is about as tasty as neoprene, but I remember my grandmother's sliced tongue. Absolutely delicious, a bit revolting to prepare, like eels. On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Douglas Quebbeman may have mentioned these words: > > > > I'll bet you're presbyotic (far-sighted) > > > > > > Nit pick time. I think you mean presbyopic. presbyotic would be > > > someone who can only hear things far away. > > Hmmm... from my High School biology & health classes, I seem to recall that > myopia is nearsightedness, *hyperopia* was farsightedness, and I thought > that presbyopia was either someone who can see near & far but not in > between, or someone that could not see near or far, but what was in between > was in focus... but that was a long time ago... and the health field > changes faster than the computer field... (I was amazed seeing back 80-90 > years ago that over 50% of the folks that died in my town were diagnosed > with "consumption"... I wonder what consumed them? Maybe squirrels??? ;-) > > > > > Plus, isn't the fiddle on their stomach? Should I ask the spider > > > > to "present, front and center" so i can check? > > > > > > Definitely on the back, hence the common name fiddleback spider. > > Makes me *very* happy to be in Northern Michigan - other than a rumor every > 10 years or so of a rattlesnake being seen, hardly anything poisonous other > than wasps & bumblebees is able to survive up here... :-) > > Oh, and my grandma was born/raised in the foothills of Kentucky -- if it > didn't crawl away fast enough, it was dinner. I've eaten squirrel that my > brother & I shot (small red squirrels) - it's *very* tasty, but you'd best > have a *lot* of them! I've also had muskrat, beaver, raccoon, squid, deer > (venison - my dad just shot one this morning!! Yum!), bear, moose, buffalo, > elk, wild boar.... usw. > > And yes, cow's tongue is very good also, when prepared correctly, but I > never did acquire a taste for the pickled pork hocks... I don't "pretend" > what I like, because I like most everything. > > Yes, it's offtopic, but I just thought I'd include that for those here who > are squeamish... ;^> > > "Merch" > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. > > (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on > their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 16:25:57 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: RE: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) (Roger Merchberger) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B37@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165933.029487d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <15385.10997.384259.105411@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Roger Merchberger wrote: > And yes, cow's tongue is very good also, when prepared correctly, but I > never did acquire a taste for the pickled pork hocks... I don't "pretend" > what I like, because I like most everything. Well this is very cool...my sense of "gross" is a little oversensitive I think; I know a few people who don't have any at all...I must admit I'm somewhat jealous of them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Dec 13 16:46:51 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165933.029487d8@mail.30below.com>; from zmerch@30below.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 05:12:03PM -0500 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B37@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165933.029487d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20011213164651.Q7957970@uiuc.edu> Roger Merchberger said: > > Hmmm... from my High School biology & health classes, I seem to recall that > myopia is nearsightedness, *hyperopia* was farsightedness, and I thought > that presbyopia was either someone who can see near & far but not in > between, or someone that could not see near or far, but what was in between > was in focus... but that was a long time ago... and the health field > changes faster than the computer field... (I was amazed seeing back 80-90 > years ago that over 50% of the folks that died in my town were diagnosed > with "consumption"... I wonder what consumed them? Maybe squirrels??? ;-) "consumption" is another name for tuberculosis. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011213/1d5431bc/attachment.bin From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 13 20:54:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Cats around computers (Merle K. Peirce) References: <15384.60980.224188.661367@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15385.27111.734096.294369@phaduka.neurotica.com> I will pass, thanks. ;) On December 13, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > I suppose that means you wouldn't want to borrow my Rat Archduke recipe? > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire > > St. Petersburg, FL > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jss at subatomix.com Thu Dec 13 20:59:46 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011213205636.O76924-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Since when has linux needed a video display card at all, let alone one > with 16M of RAM? I'm pretty good at making small distros of FreeBSD. Some people like me have gotten in to run in 4MB. The least I have ever done is 8MB. And it's not unbearably slow on a 25MHz 386 embedded card. I suspect Linux is similar. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 19:28:44 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: Message-ID: <3C18044C.D7809BF3@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Remember Linux too needs lots of memory. With >16 meg on a video card > > your OS needs about 16x that. It is the video display that is the > > killer. > > Since when has linux needed a video display card at all, let alone one > with 16M of RAM? > > -tony X - Windows ! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 19:42:27 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <15385.17231.214050.855003@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200112140144.RAA13048@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <15385.26805.533873.304318@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C180783.6C6A43AF@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh yes, most definitely...I run NetBSD in production at a number of > sites, and it's wonderful. I only mentioned Linux specifically > because we were specifically discussing Linux. While I like Linux a > LOT, I don't consider it production-ready enough to bet my dinner on > it. Windows/Linux both need several meg to run. 32 bit addressing is the killer here. The 386+ is optimized for 8 bit or 32 bit addressing. Guess what gets used the most. Now Give me OS/9, that was easy on memory. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 13 21:17:12 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C193E91.46695679@home.com> from "Neil Cherry" at Dec 13, 2001 06:49:37 PM Message-ID: <200112140317.WAA15855@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Neil Cherry once stated: > > > Remember Linux too needs lots of memory. With >16 meg on a video card > > your OS needs about 16x that. It is the video display that is the > > killer. > > I have Linux running on many boxes and they don't need a lot of memory. > The RedHat 7.x install requires I use a lot of memory but most of my > lab boxes are 16M and a 540M disk. They're just servers. The only > reason I've upgrade from 32M to 64 to 384M was Mozilla is such a pig. > But I do like the fact that I can compile the kernel and use X to surf > the net without hitting swap (memory was cheap enough to allow the cost). I have Linux 2.0 running a laptop with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive (patitioned into 112M for filesystem, and 8M for swap). The installation is based off RedHat 5.2 and it wasn't easy to actually get installed (RedHat wanted 16M of RAM for installation, Slackware wanted 8M of RAM, and Tom's RootBoot Disk barely functions in 4M of RAM) but I was able to get it going. My main system is Linux 2.0 on a 120MHz AMD 586 (a glorified 486 really) with 32M RAM with 3G of drive space and it's more than enough for what I do (I run X, which allows me to run Mozilla off my roommate's box 8-) -spc (My colocated box is a 33Mhz 486 ... ) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 19:46:56 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <200112140317.WAA15855@conman.org> Message-ID: <3C180890.D223B44@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I have Linux 2.0 running a laptop with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive > (patitioned into 112M for filesystem, and 8M for swap). The installation is > based off RedHat 5.2 and it wasn't easy to actually get installed (RedHat > wanted 16M of RAM for installation, Slackware wanted 8M of RAM, and Tom's > RootBoot Disk barely functions in 4M of RAM) but I was able to get it going. > > My main system is Linux 2.0 on a 120MHz AMD 586 (a glorified 486 really) > with 32M RAM with 3G of drive space and it's more than enough for what I do > (I run X, which allows me to run Mozilla off my roommate's box 8-) > > -spc (My colocated box is a 33Mhz 486 ... ) I like debian linux for the simple reason you can upgrade over a modem internet connection. Red Hat wants a $#%! network card! I downgraded to windows since I am using FPGA software and a game or two and needed my other 720 meg HD. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 13 21:21:46 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <20011213205636.O76924-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since when has linux needed a video display card at all, let alone one > > with 16M of RAM? > > I'm pretty good at making small distros of FreeBSD. Some people like me > have gotten in to run in 4MB. The least I have ever done is 8MB. And > it's not unbearably slow on a 25MHz 386 embedded card. I suspect Linux is > similar. I've gotten NetBSD running fairly well in 2 MB. Peace... Sridhar From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 13 21:23:17 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C191791.D1E85E21@yahoo.com> from "Bill McDermith" at Dec 13, 2001 02:03:13 PM Message-ID: <200112140323.WAA15880@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Bill McDermith once stated: > > As an interesting side note, from my understanding, the MIPS > processor doesn't have a stack in the same way as the pdp-8 > doesn't -- it has to be implemented "by hand", with stores > through a register (stack pointer) with the register incremented > or decremented... Of course, the MIPS has registers (note the > plural), while the pdp-8 has an accumulator. Yes, on the MIPS, the return address is stored in a register so if the routine you call makes further calls, that register needs to be saved, and usually another register is used as the stack register but it's managed ``by hand'' as it were. As this is on topic, as MIPS chips have been around for over 10 years ... -spc (did a bit of MIPS assembly at school ... ) From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 13 21:34:30 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <20011213205636.O76924-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since when has linux needed a video display card at all, let alone one > > with 16M of RAM? > > I'm pretty good at making small distros of FreeBSD. Some people like me > have gotten in to run in 4MB. The least I have ever done is 8MB. And > it's not unbearably slow on a 25MHz 386 embedded card. I suspect Linux is > similar. I started out with Linux on a 386DX-25 with 4MB ram, so I know that works. You could run X, but it was a little too slow for most things you would want to use a gui for. A modern Linux dist that uses X would probably not work too well on such a machine, but you can build up your own system from source that will work just fine. -Toth From mhstein at usa.net Thu Dec 13 20:22:37 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Burroughs (was: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive) Message-ID: <01C1841C.741B9540@mse-d03> Congratulations! Which model? Have a few bits myself, including a digital cassette drive (&docs) and a few tapes; need any? mike -----------------Original Message----------------- From: Boatman on the River of Suck I have a complete (almost working) Burroughs computer. Peace... Sridhar From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 00:07:43 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Burroughs (was: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive) In-Reply-To: <01C1841C.741B9540@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, M H Stein wrote: > Congratulations! Which model? > > Have a few bits myself, including a digital cassette drive (&docs) and > a few tapes; need any? For the Burroughs or the Everex drive?? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 13 22:10:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I'm assuming that the drawing was intended to be a generic picture of > a joystick ("to be purchased after-market"), and that their artist > simply happened to use the RS one as a sample. The IBM joystick is in fact a rebadged Tandy joystick. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 13 22:56:55 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > The IBM joystick is in fact a rebadged Tandy joystick. Wow! How did I ever miss that?!? You saw that I had almost everything from RS and IBM from that time period. In the stuff that you got from me, there were some Tandy joysticks that I recabled for PC, since that was all I could find! I had LOOKED, and never found. I had also cabled up some miscellaneous STUFF, such as trying to make a crude color balance meter for darkroom color printing, out of photocells, filters, and PC game controller. From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 00:05:54 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Wow! How did I ever miss that?!? I don't know. I've found at least several loose ones and actually many more than that that are boxed (some still in shrinkwrap!) I must've hit the IBM PC Joystick bonanza. > You saw that I had almost everything from RS and IBM from that time > period. In the stuff that you got from me, there were some Tandy > joysticks that I recabled for PC, since that was all I could find! I > had LOOKED, and never found. I vaguely recall those, but I'm sure they're there somewhere :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 13 22:10:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I can say with absolute certainty that there was an IBM branded joystick > > both for the PC and the PCjr (with the appropriate connectors) as I have > > both. And as far as I know, these came from the U.S. > > Ah HA! > > Did it physically resemble the Radio Shack Coco one and/or the drawing in > the early PC Tech Ref? Yes and yes. And for good measure, yes. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 13 22:17:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Emerald Systems digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: <007801c18440$7c059ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've got one of those somewhere, I think, and it uses a WD33C93 on the > interface adapter, which means it's capable of standard SCSI. The one > I have is a Tandberg drive that uses DC600 cartridges. Sadly, I don't > have the drivers, etc, either. It does have the WD33C93, a 50 pin cable to the drive and an external AMP connector so I would assume this is a SCSI adaptor of some sort. But, it's dead in the water without those drivers. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 13 22:19:54 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: OT time In-Reply-To: <20011213201508.L76924-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > > > Doesn't anybody care anymore? > > It hasn't been totally OT. We've discussed cats and each other's success > at integrating them into a classiccmp lifestyle. We've also discussed the > many weird things that I have been found inside computers (including OT > 'puters). At least we're not at each other's throats about "Dubya" or > calling each other ASSSSSSSes. Rejecting denial is the first step towards off-topic recovery. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 13 23:20:41 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: This list is on the skids again . . . Message-ID: <20011214052243.RXUT11052.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Bryan Pope > But what looked good was the deep-fried wild turkey. Good luck, those things are tough as hell. Gimme a Butterball any day. > P.S. I wonder what kind of wine goes good with squirrel? A couple of bottles > before it is set down in front of you??! Any of the following would be pleasing to the squirrel-eaters I've known: Mad Dog Thunderbird Boone's Farm Red Mountain Annie Green Springs Recommended dosage: 32 oz. per guest, on an empty stomach . . . but hide all the guns, first . . . Glen 0/0 From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Dec 13 21:53:31 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around compu ters) In-Reply-To: <20011213150703.M76324-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <200112131653.IAA08050@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011213225331.01014e68@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:07 PM 12/13/01 -0600, Jeffrey wrote: >On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> This is unfortunate since people take shoes and other implements to >> wolf spiders who are good to have in the house as they keep insects >> down to a minimum, and don't bother people. > >Anything in my house with more than four legs dies. It's as simple as >that. What about the billions of dust mites? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Dec 13 22:01:35 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011213230135.01018350@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:10 PM 12/13/01 -0700, Robert Feldman wrote: >Do you (or someone you know) have a pet guinea pig? They were originally >domesticated and raised as food, in Peru. I must say a good barbequed cuy >(which is what they are called there) is quite tasty, though not much meat >on them. Aztecs bred a special dog race, called "izcuintle", for culinary purposes. They're pretty ugly as they are hairless. But they're supposed to taste like pork. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 21:05:09 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Cats around computers References: <3.0.2.32.20011213230135.01018350@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3C181AE5.AFBD51F8@jetnet.ab.ca> Carlos Murillo wrote: > Aztecs bred a special dog race, called "izcuintle", for > culinary purposes. They're pretty ugly as they are > hairless. But they're supposed to taste like pork. They also ate people too, that tastes like pork too. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Dec 13 22:35:07 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) References: Message-ID: <019401c18458$b5bb6430$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle K. Peirce" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:18 PM Subject: RE: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) > Well squid is about as tasty as neoprene, but I remember my grandmother's > sliced tongue. Absolutely delicious, a bit revolting to prepare, like eels. Uh, you sliced up your grandmother's tongue and ate it? Wow. ;^) (Running and ducking) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 13 23:07:00 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:57 2005 Subject: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around computers)) In-Reply-To: <019401c18458$b5bb6430$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: I think his granny slips him the tngue (yuk! did I type that out loud?) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Geoff Roberts -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:35 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around -> computers)) -> -> -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Merle K. Peirce" -> To: -> Cc: -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:18 PM -> Subject: RE: Wierd Things you've found inside... (was Smoking around -> computers)) -> -> -> > Well squid is about as tasty as neoprene, but I remember my -> grandmother's -> > sliced tongue. Absolutely delicious, a bit revolting to prepare, like -> eels. -> -> Uh, you sliced up your grandmother's tongue and ate it? Wow. ;^) -> (Running and ducking) -> -> Cheers -> -> Geoff Roberts -> Computer Systems Manager -> Saint Mark's College -> Port Pirie, South Australia -> geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au -> ICQ 1970476 -> -> From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 13 23:05:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question Message-ID: <20011214050748.LZVU28277.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Dave McGuire > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? > > > > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. > > > > Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to > > old Rocket J. himself... > > Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) > > -Dave I'm with Dave. If I'm that hungry, I'll find out what the squirrels are eating (such as nuts), and eat the same thing! As I child I visited some of my hilljack relatives in the Appalachians and saw them eat these rodents. They especially enjoyed eating the brains. Blechhhh . . . rats with furry tails . . . recent research has also found evidence of a mad-cow-like disease which is carried in squirrel brains . . From ernestls at attbi.com Thu Dec 13 23:56:54 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: <20011214050748.LZVU28277.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: > As I child I visited some of my hilljack relatives in the Appalachians and > saw them eat these rodents. They especially enjoyed eating the brains. > Blechhhh . . . rats with furry tails . . . recent research has also found > evidence of a mad-cow-like disease which is carried in squirrel brains . . I think that economics has a lot to do with why "hillbilly's" eat things that I would never dream of. Maybe it's just that they don't know that eating brain matter is completely gross -along with tongue, liver, kidney, feet, gizzard, snout, tail, eye, head, stomach, or testicles. Big shiver. Many meat eating Europeans will gladly gobble up all the brain and tongue matter that you can put in front of them. I'm not sure if they were always like that, or if they learned to enjoy by-products because of the food shortages during and after WWII -a person will learn to enjoy eating dirt if they become hungry enough, for long enough. Even I will eat sausage from time to time, and I'm not even starving. I draw the line at baloney though (finger holds lips closed as cheeks balloon outward.) If you'll eat brain, you'll probably eat pickled anus on a stick to. E. From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 13 21:49:54 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not a thing wrong with squirrel and you can scramble the brains with eggs and it's a southern delicasy, especially in the Carolinas. Rabbit is also a rodent and many big dollar restaurants serve it. Racoon is a rodent, eaten throughout the US and Canada. Woodchuck, groundhod, prairie dog, etc are all knawing animals, or rodents, and are very good and helps to keep the woodland poluations in check. Rats and mice are easten in some places for either lack of knowledge of lack of other foods and they pay the price in getting wonderful deadly diseases that eventually are worse than starving. Guinea pigs are pretty good too, just not very big. USAF survival school gets you used to lots of odd stuff, the worst (I think) being termites. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Merle K. Peirce -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 8:21 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Cats around computers -> -> -> I suppose that means you wouldn't want to borrow my Rat Archduke recipe? -> -> On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: -> -> > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: -> > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? -> > -> > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. -> > -> > -Dave -> > -> > -- -> > Dave McGuire -> > St. Petersburg, FL -> > -> -> M. K. Peirce -> -> Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. -> Shady Lea, Rhode Island -> -> "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." -> -> - Ovid -> -> From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Dec 13 21:58:11 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <15385.6809.204200.248496@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B36@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011213225811.01015e40@obregon.multi.net.co> At 04:16 PM 12/13/01 -0500, you wrote: > I will never understand the "I am cool because I eat, and pretend to >like, things that gross most people out" mentality. > > -Dave Well, it usually turns out that "most people" has a very local character to it. I had a hard time finding beef tongue or brains in the U.S. These are considered a delicacy in many other places. %-) carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 13 23:05:14 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011213225811.01015e40@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: Go to the older style supermarkets, or the "meat markets" and you can get any part of an animal that it comes with. My aunt loves tongue and gets it at a local meat shop near her in the suburbs of Chicago. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Carlos Murillo -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:58 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Cats around computers -> -> -> At 04:16 PM 12/13/01 -0500, you wrote: -> > I will never understand the "I am cool because I eat, and pretend to -> >like, things that gross most people out" mentality. -> > -> > -Dave -> -> Well, it usually turns out that "most people" has a very local character -> to it. -> -> I had a hard time finding beef tongue or brains in the U.S. These are -> considered a delicacy in many other places. %-) -> -> -> carlos. -> -> -> -------------------------------------------------------------- -> Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org -> -> From ken at seefried.com Thu Dec 13 22:12:07 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <200112140232.fBE2WAq70001@ns2.ezwind.net> References: <200112140232.fBE2WAq70001@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20011214041207.13635.qmail@mail.seefried.com> >From: Chad Fernandez >I had a cat lick pictures once. They'll eat/chew on the darndest things >if you let them. ... >My parents still have one cat that will eat/chew ribbon >>David Woyciesjes wrote: >> Well, my 3 1/2 year old cat, Isabelle, like to like tape and pictures. >> Never figured that one out yet... I think it might be texture. I've got a cat that compulsively licks plastic items, especially grocery bags. Obviously no taste, but anything plasticy, she licks. I just thought she was a tard-cat. Ken From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 13 22:52:57 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <20011214041207.13635.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Ken Seefried wrote: > I just thought she was a tard-cat. YES! They are ALL re-tards. They all have weird glitches in their firmware. We have one that's bulemic. If we don't feed her enough to hurl, she'll founder at the waterbowl. Never on tile. Always on the carpet. Good thing it belongs to root instead of me, or it would not survive. Doc From fernande at internet1.net Thu Dec 13 22:57:06 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers References: <200112140232.fBE2WAq70001@ns2.ezwind.net> <20011214041207.13635.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <3C1986A2.DC7534C1@internet1.net> Yup, the same cat I spoke of earlier likes to eat grocery bags too. I always thought they may be salty...... but I've never tried one either. I wouldn't think they would have much texture. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ken Seefried wrote: > I think it might be texture. I've got a cat that compulsively licks plastic > items, especially grocery bags. Obviously no taste, but anything plasticy, > she licks. > > I just thought she was a tard-cat. > > Ken From fernande at internet1.net Thu Dec 13 22:59:30 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B36@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3.0.2.32.20011213225811.01015e40@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3C198732.5A2B831A@internet1.net> Really, Meijers has had beef tongue ever since I can remember..... since I was little, shopping with my mom. You might not have a Meijer store in your area, However. They are MI, IN, OH, and I think TN, now, maybe IL, too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Carlos Murillo wrote: > I had a hard time finding beef tongue or brains in the U.S. These are > considered a delicacy in many other places. %-) > > carlos. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 00:22:46 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: Re: OT: RE: Cats around computers (Ben Franchuk) References: <3.0.2.32.20011213230135.01018350@obregon.multi.net.co> <3C181AE5.AFBD51F8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15385.39606.124474.973914@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 12, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Aztecs bred a special dog race, called "izcuintle", for > > culinary purposes. They're pretty ugly as they are > > hairless. But they're supposed to taste like pork. > > They also ate people too, that tastes like pork too. Isn't everything supposed to taste like chicken? My favorite exchange from Stargate SG-1, as Daniel sits down to some field rations: Daniel: "This tastes like chicken." Maj. Carter: "What's wrong with that?" Daniel: "It's macaroni and cheese." -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 00:29:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Cats around computers (Carlos Murillo) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B36@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3.0.2.32.20011213225811.01015e40@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <15385.40031.444252.144172@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > I will never understand the "I am cool because I eat, and pretend to > >like, things that gross most people out" mentality. > > Well, it usually turns out that "most people" has a very local character > to it. Oh yes, I agree 100% that it's all just a matter of what we're culturally used to...but that knowlege will not stop the huge tide of spewing vomit that will ensue if someone puts brains in front of my face. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 01:42:12 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <15385.40031.444252.144172@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I will never understand the "I am cool because I eat, and pretend to > > >like, things that gross most people out" mentality. > > > > Well, it usually turns out that "most people" has a very local character > > to it. > > Oh yes, I agree 100% that it's all just a matter of what we're > culturally used to...but that knowlege will not stop the huge tide of > spewing vomit that will ensue if someone puts brains in front of my > face. Still doesn't stop you from waving your pit beef sandwich in mine. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 01:59:53 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: RE: Cats around computers (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <15385.40031.444252.144172@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15385.45433.554531.899607@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 14, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > Oh yes, I agree 100% that it's all just a matter of what we're > > culturally used to...but that knowlege will not stop the huge tide of > > spewing vomit that will ensue if someone puts brains in front of my > > face. > > Still doesn't stop you from waving your pit beef sandwich in mine. 8-) Deep down, you like beef, Sridhar. You're just in denial. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From donm at cts.com Fri Dec 14 00:50:53 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > > > > As I child I visited some of my hilljack relatives in the Appalachians and > > saw them eat these rodents. They especially enjoyed eating the brains. > > Blechhhh . . . rats with furry tails . . . recent research has also found > > evidence of a mad-cow-like disease which is carried in squirrel brains . . > > I think that economics has a lot to do with why "hillbilly's" eat things > that > I would never dream of. Maybe it's just that they don't know that eating > brain > matter is completely gross -along with tongue, liver, kidney, feet, gizzard, > snout, > tail, eye, head, stomach, or testicles. Big shiver. Many meat eating > Europeans will gladly > gobble up all the brain and tongue matter that you can put in front of them. > I'm > not sure if they were always like that, or if they learned to enjoy > by-products > because of the food shortages during and after WWII -a person will learn to > enjoy > eating dirt if they become hungry enough, for long enough. Even I will eat > sausage > from time to time, and I'm not even starving. I draw the line at baloney > though > (finger holds lips closed as cheeks balloon outward.) > > If you'll eat brain, you'll probably eat pickled anus on a stick to. > > E. > Where on your scale do you put horse meat? The French love it. - don From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 01:00:58 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question (Don Maslin) References: Message-ID: <15385.41898.34366.288398@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 13, Don Maslin wrote: > > If you'll eat brain, you'll probably eat pickled anus on a stick to. > > Where on your scale do you put horse meat? The French love it. Heh...I wasn't going to mention this, but now I have no choice. ;) I used to say that I could sum up the French culture in two sentences: "This is the most repulsive thing I've ever seen. I think I'll put it in my mouth!" For the humor-impaired: This is a joke. No offense to any French listmembers is intended. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 14 01:20:51 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? In-Reply-To: References: <01C1841C.741B9540@mse-d03> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214011817.00ae7e40@127.0.0.1> I used to work for a company that was in the process of decommissioning a Burroughs mainframe (or minicomputer?) in the early '90's. Are there any web-based sources of information regarding the Burroughs line of computers and peripherals? I only got a quick peek at the machine once, and maybe some pictures might bring back my memories. - Matt At 10:07 PM 12/13/2001 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, M H Stein wrote: > > > Congratulations! Which model? > > > > Have a few bits myself, including a digital cassette drive (&docs) and > > a few tapes; need any? > >For the Burroughs or the Everex drive?? > >:) > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and >Danger http://www.vintage.org Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 01:44:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214011817.00ae7e40@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: This is a page about a B205. I'll eventually get a page up about my G20M/200. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/index.html Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:20:51 -0600 > From: Matthew Sell > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Burroughs - any information? > > > > I used to work for a company that was in the process of decommissioning a > Burroughs mainframe (or minicomputer?) in the early '90's. > > Are there any web-based sources of information regarding the Burroughs line > of computers and peripherals? > > I only got a quick peek at the machine once, and maybe some pictures might > bring back my memories. > > - Matt > > > > > > > > At 10:07 PM 12/13/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, M H Stein wrote: > > > > > Congratulations! Which model? > > > > > > Have a few bits myself, including a digital cassette drive (&docs) and > > > a few tapes; need any? > > > >For the Burroughs or the Everex drive?? > > > >:) > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >International Man of Intrigue and > >Danger http://www.vintage.org > > > > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com > (281) 296-6066 > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... > > From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Dec 14 01:21:07 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Pinouts for Vaxstation 3100 monochrome cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011214012107.M21611@mrbill.net> On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:26:35PM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > Hi, all. > I have a vaxstation 3100 m38 running NetBSD, and I'd like to be able > to use the local monochrome display. DOC! WHZAAAAP! Welcome, dude. > I've removed the SPX color adapter, > and made up a cable according to the pinouts on Kee's VS3100 page. His > pinouts are composite on pin 9 and ground on 3 for a BC23K-03 cable. > However, with the cobbled cable attached, I don't get any output. I think I've got a couple mono monitor cables in the garage; will take a look tomorrow. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 01:54:44 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Pinouts for Vaxstation 3100 monochrome cable? In-Reply-To: <20011214012107.M21611@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > DOC! WHZAAAAP! Welcome, dude. Dude! Thanks. You should have told me about this 2 or 3 years ago! > > I've removed the SPX color adapter, > > and made up a cable according to the pinouts on Kee's VS3100 page. His > > pinouts are composite on pin 9 and ground on 3 for a BC23K-03 cable. > > However, with the cobbled cable attached, I don't get any output. > > I think I've got a couple mono monitor cables in the garage; will > take a look tomorrow. That'd be most excellent. Doc From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 15:12:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Hello, This topic was rehashed not too long ago, but rather than read 6 weeks worth of thread on it, let me star it again. I have a PSU, the input leads (part of the EMI filter I think) are labeled L, G, and N. G is I am sure, the ground. Of N and L (beutral and low?), which goes to thewhite wire, and which goes to the black wire? The A/C cord is a 20amp type with the two blades at 90 degrees to each other as in "| -". Thanks, -doug q From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 16:37:58 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On AC devices that I've worked with, N is neutral (white), L is line (black), G is ground (green). I don't know why you've got the opposed blades. In the US we use type A (2 pring in parallel) and B (two parallels with a round ground prong) and many places in Euro they use the two round pronged C type. Ive seen the opposed blade type but I think it's 220 for air conditioners, I may halucenating from all the dust I just got into inside an old PS/2 I'm digging out of storage. It might alos be made for 400hz power, who knows. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:12 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux -> -> -> Hello, -> -> This topic was rehashed not too long ago, but rather -> than read 6 weeks worth of thread on it, let me star it -> again. -> -> I have a PSU, the input leads (part of the EMI filter -> I think) are labeled L, G, and N. G is I am sure, the -> ground. -> -> Of N and L (beutral and low?), which goes to thewhite -> wire, and which goes to the black wire? -> -> The A/C cord is a 20amp type with the two blades at -> 90 degrees to each other as in "| -". -> -> Thanks, -> -doug q -> From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 15:16:21 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Hello again, Many of you are into PDP-11, both the blinkenlights variety and the simpler dump front panels, as well as VAXen and such with console-based front panels. Do any of these machines, if they have a really bad problem that might preclude the use of the console, flash an LED to mean something? In particular, do any of you have familiarity with systems that flash the on or power light as an indicattor, sopecifiecally, of a power supply problem? Would anyone venture what a 2 Hz flash rate on the ON LED of a Prime might mean? Thanks again, -doug q From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Dec 14 16:10:38 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Another odd-ball/almost classic computer...8 yr old... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Just found this in a box... Has anyone here ever heard of a Gateway 2000 Handbook computer? It's like a palmtop/laptop computer, 10"x6"x1.5"... using a Chips & Tech. 8680 "PC on a chip". It has the 2MB RAM upgrade, to bring it to a whopping 3MB! And would you look at that, 40MB HDD... With the null modem cable, it would make a great ultra-portable terminal... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Dec 14 16:56:46 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Another odd-ball/almost classic computer...8 yr old... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On 14-Dec-2001 David Woyciesjes wrote: > And would you look at that, 40MB HDD... With the null modem cable, > it would make a great ultra-portable terminal... Or upload things you find on the web but don't want to read while sitting in front of the computer. Then wander off to a more comfy location to read it. I have two DOS-era pen computers (Safari and GRiD) i have to resurect that i want to do this with. -PHilip > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Dec 14 15:06:47 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Is there no end Message-ID: Ugh... this takes the cake. I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat sink off the chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible processor?!? I am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS probably paid an MS tax because of that stamp! Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of Rhapsody to install on it. Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people can understand the pain. -c From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 14 15:37:10 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011214213940.JHRS25070.femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Yea. I think some of thier 486dlc chips also bore that little emblem. Don't worry. I used to run OS/2 on an AMD486 and on the 486dlc. The processors are completely compatible with Intel's as far as I've been able to see. In , on 12/14/01 at 04:06 PM, Chris said: >Ugh... this takes the cake. >I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat sink off the > chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft >Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. >What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible processor?!? I > am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS probably >paid an MS tax because of that stamp! >Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of >Rhapsody to install on it. >Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people can understand > the pain. >-c -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 16:45:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <20011214213940.JHRS25070.femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: Matter of fact AMD was subcontracted at one point to MAKE processors for Intel, when demands were up and they couldn't meet market requirements - and many of the AMD made Intel branded chips are better than many of the Intel ones. I don't remember if it was the 386 era or 486 though. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of -> UberTechnoid@home.com -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:37 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Is there no end -> -> -> Yea. I think some of thier 486dlc chips also bore that little emblem. -> Don't worry. I used to run OS/2 on an AMD486 and on the 486dlc. The -> processors are completely compatible with Intel's as far as I've -> been able -> to see. -> -> In , on 12/14/01 -> at 04:06 PM, Chris said: -> -> >Ugh... this takes the cake. -> -> >I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat -> sink off the -> > chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft -> >Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. -> -> >What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible -> processor?!? I -> > am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS probably -> >paid an MS tax because of that stamp! -> -> >Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of -> >Rhapsody to install on it. -> -> >Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people can -> understand -> > the pain. -> -> >-c -> -> -> -- -> ----------------------------------------------------------- -> Jeffrey S. Worley -> Asheville, NC USA -> 828-6984887 -> UberTechnoid@Home.com -> ----------------------------------------------------------- -> -> From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 17:12:39 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:58 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <20011214213940.JHRS25070.femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > Yea. I think some of thier 486dlc chips also bore that little emblem. > Don't worry. I used to run OS/2 on an AMD486 and on the 486dlc. The > processors are completely compatible with Intel's as far as I've been able > to see. Well, I never had problems with the 486 AMD & Cyrix, and that dlc flat smoked a comparable Intel 486, but I've had both AMD K-6 and Cyrix 686 boxes in the 166-200mHz class, and they did not fare well with Windows. Constant lockups and the occasional hard freeze. I'm quite sure it wasn't a hardware issue, such as thermal problems, because Linux ran just fine on all of them. Having said all that, I'm convinced that the IBM/Cyrix 686 bot its bad rap mostly from third-rate integrators and $4 HS/fan combos. I charged a BUNCH of $50-$75 service call to pop the heatsink, spread some thermal paste, and put the cover back on. Doc > > In , on 12/14/01 > at 04:06 PM, Chris said: > > >Ugh... this takes the cake. > > >I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat sink off the > > chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft > >Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. > > >What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible processor?!? I > > am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS probably > >paid an MS tax because of that stamp! > > >Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of > >Rhapsody to install on it. > > >Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people can understand > > the pain. > > >-c > > > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 14 15:39:55 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Dec 14, 01 04:06:47 pm Message-ID: <200112142139.QAA29228@wordstock.com> I think the real reason for the stamp was to assure people that the AMD chip could run any WIndows program. There was the stigma at that time - if the CPU didn't have the Intel logo on it, you computer wouldn't run all of the PC programs. Bryan > > Ugh... this takes the cake. > > I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat sink off the > chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft > Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. > > What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible processor?!? I > am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS probably > paid an MS tax because of that stamp! > > Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of > Rhapsody to install on it. > > Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people can understand > the pain. > > -c > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 16:45:42 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <200112142139.QAA29228@wordstock.com> Message-ID: And that stigma just happened to be floundered by many inadvertant Intel marketing means - don't know if they intended to make buyers think that AMD was anything less but the general public started thinking it. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:40 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Is there no end -> -> -> -> I think the real reason for the stamp was to assure people that -> the AMD chip -> could run any WIndows program. There was the stigma at that -> time - if the -> CPU didn't have the Intel logo on it, you computer wouldn't run -> all of the PC -> programs. -> -> Bryan -> -> -> > -> > Ugh... this takes the cake. -> > -> > I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat -> sink off the -> > chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft -> > Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. -> > -> > What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible -> processor?!? I -> > am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS probably -> > paid an MS tax because of that stamp! -> > -> > Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of -> > Rhapsody to install on it. -> > -> > Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people can -> understand -> > the pain. -> > -> > -c -> > -> > -> -> From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Dec 14 15:45:11 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] ! ! ! Ugh... this takes the cake. ! ! I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat ! sink off the ! chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft ! Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. ! ! What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible ! processor?!? I ! am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS ! probably ! paid an MS tax because of that stamp! ! ! Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of ! Rhapsody to install on it. ! ! Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people ! can understand ! the pain. Chris --- I've seen quite a few of those around here at work. In fact, I have Win98 running on some still! Doesn't do too bad, considering they only have 32 MB RAM also... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From msell at brigadier.ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 14 15:54:28 2001 From: msell at brigadier.ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back in those days, many people were skeptical about using a non-Intel processor when running Windows. There was a big marketing effort by the likes of Cyrix, AMD, and whoever made the "WinChip" to convince people that those processors would run Windows okay. - Matt On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Chris wrote: > Ugh... this takes the cake. > > I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat sink off the > chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft > Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. > > What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible processor?!? I > am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS probably > paid an MS tax because of that stamp! > > Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of > Rhapsody to install on it. > > Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people can understand > the pain. > > -c > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 16:30:44 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: from Matthew Sell at "Dec 14, 1 03:54:28 pm" Message-ID: <200112142230.OAA09478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Back in those days, many people were skeptical about using a non-Intel > processor when running Windows. > > There was a big marketing effort by the likes of Cyrix, AMD, and whoever > made the "WinChip" to convince people that those processors would run > Windows okay. Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- M. L. King, Jr. --- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 16:36:40 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Re: Is there no end (Cameron Kaiser) References: <200112142230.OAA09478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <15386.32504.374173.583365@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 14, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Back in those days, many people were skeptical about using a non-Intel > > processor when running Windows. > > > > There was a big marketing effort by the likes of Cyrix, AMD, and whoever > > made the "WinChip" to convince people that those processors would run > > Windows okay. > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P Wait...woudn't that make it a "LoseChip"? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 14 16:56:50 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <200112142230.OAA09478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214165505.02ba7c90@127.0.0.1> Cute response.... : ) My laptop says "Designed For Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional", so, I guess that means Dell didn't perform any testing of the product before shipment....... - Matt >Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > >-- >----------------------------- personal page: >http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * > ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu >-- Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- M. L. King, >Jr. --- Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 16:20:28 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It was put on there to basically state that it works well with MS Windows, not only with MS Windows. I'm surpirsed you've never seen that on an AMD, Intel or Cyrix chip or on the outside of a case. Of course they run DOS, old Windows, 95 and 98 and most Linux versions. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chris -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:07 PM -> To: Classic Computer -> Subject: Is there no end -> -> -> Ugh... this takes the cake. -> -> I was pulling apart a 486 logic board, and I pulled the heat -> sink off the -> chip... to be greated with an AMD 486 chip with "Made for Microsoft -> Windows" and the Windows logo stamped on it. -> -> What... no other OS is supposed to use an intel compatible -> processor?!? I -> am sure anyone that bought this chip to use with any other OS probably -> paid an MS tax because of that stamp! -> -> Just for that, I think I might see if I can get my Intel build of -> Rhapsody to install on it. -> -> Ok, so it isn't 10 years or older, but at least you people can -> understand -> the pain. -> -> -c -> -> From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 16:36:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: RE: Is there no end (Russ Blakeman) References: Message-ID: <15386.32481.173938.298821@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 14, Russ Blakeman wrote: > It was put on there to basically state that it works well with MS Windows, > not only with MS Windows. Perhaps so, but that's not what it *says*. "Made for Microsoft Windows" implies much more than "Works with Microsoft Windows". I wouldn't be surprised if AMD got a substantial amount of money from Microsoft to paste that sticker on those chips. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Dec 14 17:01:36 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end Message-ID: >Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. I didn't doubt for a moment that the AMD chip was fully compatible with any other Intel compat OS or software... just that it was REALLY REALLY sad that they had to stamp it with windows propaganda as if windows was the only thing out there that mattered. -c From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 13:45:01 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Is there no end References: Message-ID: <3C1A56BD.E792AD22@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris wrote: > > >Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > I didn't doubt for a moment that the AMD chip was fully compatible with > any other Intel compat OS or software... just that it was REALLY REALLY > sad that they had to stamp it with windows propaganda as if windows was > the only thing out there that mattered. > > -c Lets not forget about win-modems and win-printers that are compatable with nothing! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 14 15:05:49 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Googles of delights Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011214145229.023d00f0@pc> I've had a great time perusing the new old Usenet posts on Google.com. It took me a while to find the various logins I'd used back in '83 or so, getting on news any way I could. I've waited a long time for other people's backup archives to restore copies of these files to my hands. Thankfully, I didn't say anything too embarrassing. I think that aspect will have repercussions. What's the online world going to be like when your off-hand comments will be around forever? Search for someone's posts, click on the link of their name, and presto, you can see everything they've posted, including that plea for companionship to net.singles back in 1983. One fun aspect has been seeing who jumped into threads back then - before they were famous for other reasons. For example, I hadn't remembered that Larry Wall hung out on comp.sys.amiga for a while in the early days. I have also done what someone else here predicted: look for people who had old machines to dispose, and ask them what happened to them. I focused on the Terak, for my museum at www.threedee.com/jcm . I also used the archive to find people who worked at Terak back when. I found several names I hadn't known before. Given a unique name and a history of working in the computer business, it seemed I could find current e-mail addresses for about half of the names I searched. I fired off notes to find out if they'd kept any memorabilia or disks. I hope someone builds a historical directory of links to historically relevant posts. I might take on the task myself. - John From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 14 11:08:31 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: On Sequent Symmetry S81 and PC Jr. Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Since these two are probably the only not-yet-functional machines I haven't posted questions to this list about, I've decided to ask about them. Easy one first: Can anybody give me the pinout of the power-connector for the PC-Jr. I don't have a power cord. Failing that, has anyone got a spare? :) (If I understand properly, the power supply is inside, and the power running through the cord should be AC, right?) Next, the hard part: I have a Sequent Symmetry S81. It's in need of at least the following: CPU boards RAM boards Drives, but I can probably handle that... A version of DYNIX which will support it (likely on QIC-120) For those of you who don't know it, this is a 1987 model mini that used Intel CPUs in parallel. Up to 30 (IIRC) 386/16 cpus, on boards which contain sets of two could be used. Each CPU had a dedicated Weitek co-processor, too. I believe it was UMA/shared memory. I also believe that the peripheral bus was VME. I have quite a set of boards in that bus right now, whatever it is, and would be interested in any help I could get in cataloging them and figuring out what I've got. I believe that the system was board-for-board compatible with the S27, and the only difference was the enclosure. Speaking of which, I could also use help in determining whether I can hope to get this running on normal wall-power. The system is built-in to a rack, which has an inch-thick cord (no plug :/) coming out of it. It seems on the inside of the rack that the power is broken out into something more manageable, and, IIRC, 115 - 120 volts. (It's been a while since I've pulled it out and looked.) I would like to get this system working, so... Does anyone know where to find parts or system software? Is there anyone who could possibly help me ID some of the parts already in the system? I'll try to get all the serial numbers, etc, from the boards if there are any takers. What are my chances of getting this thing to run off of wall-power without blowing anything up? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Dec 14 12:08:57 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: On Sequent Symmetry S81 and PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>; from csmith@amdocs.com on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:08:31 CET References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011214190857.A83931@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.14 18:08 Christopher Smith wrote: [Sequent Symmetry S81] > Drives, but I can probably handle that... What interface SMD? > I believe that the system was board-for-board compatible with the S27, The Unix-AG once owned a S27 with 8 CPUs, 80MB RAM, 7 SMD disks, Exabyte, ... I know where the machine is now, including a complete set of OS software. If you get the machine working, ask me for software. Don't expect much of that machine. I could get only 200kB/s via the Ethernet, the SMD disk controller could not handle more then 700kB/s. (The same disks can deliver more than 2MB/s on a Sun 3/260.) That is real poor for such a high end beast. I was really disapointed. But it is nice to see an old 4.2BSD UNIX derivate with AT&T universe running on 8 CPUs in a SMP config. From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 14 13:25:36 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: On Sequent Symmetry S81 and PC Jr. Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFBA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jochen Kunz [mailto:jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de] > On 2001.12.14 18:08 Christopher Smith wrote: > > [Sequent Symmetry S81] > > Drives, but I can probably handle that... > What interface SMD? Possibly, it's hard to tell since I'm not sure what an SMD interface looks like. I could turn it over and check but I don't know what to look for. ;) > > I believe that the system was board-for-board compatible > with the S27, > The Unix-AG once owned a S27 with 8 CPUs, 80MB RAM, 7 SMD disks, > Exabyte, ... I know where the machine is now, including a complete set > of OS software. If you get the machine working, ask me for software. I certainly will. > Don't expect much of that machine. I could get only 200kB/s via the > Ethernet, the SMD disk controller could not handle more then 700kB/s. > (The same disks can deliver more than 2MB/s on a Sun 3/260.) That is > real poor for such a high end beast. I was really > disapointed. But it is Did you get the chance to find out how performance faired when you add more CPU? > nice to see an old 4.2BSD UNIX derivate with AT&T universe > running on 8 > CPUs in a SMP config. It is amusing for me to see _any_ intel cpu running in an SMP config, and the fact that from what I've heard, Sequent made them do it fairly well, intrigues me. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Dec 14 08:54:13 2001 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: PDT-11?? can anyone tell me what this is? Message-ID: <200112141454.JAA4494184@shell.TheWorld.com> (Sorry for the time-shifted response... I was away at vacation) >I've just come across a PDT-11 (model: PDT-11150 CJ) > >It has 2 8" floppy drives, (which someone has labelled sy0: & dk0:) > >on the back there are 6 db25's labeled console,printer,modem, term 1, >term 2 , term 3 > >What is this machine?? Can I make it run as a PDP11.. >It's nice 'n' small & looks like it would be quieter than >my 11/44. This is basically a pdp-11, based on the 11/2 chipset. Unlike most other -11s, though, it is configured such that there is 60kb available to the user (30k-words) and the IO page is only 4kb instead of 8kb The roms know about RT-11 queue elements and the RT device driver (PD.SYS) calls entry points in the rom to do the actual data transfers. You could use it in place of your 11/44, if you want to waaaiiiiit for stuff to get done... not to mention the fact that there really isn't much space on two RX01 floppies... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 08:58:18 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: This list is on the skids again . . . In-Reply-To: <20011214052243.RXUT11052.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: Well the dosage is right for the area south of Lousy-ville that I live in but homemade (or barn made) drinks are the norm, and are generally more potent. I get wild turkeys out here every year but prep them the same as I would a Butt-ball and they are fine. Deep frying does make them tough as you noted. -> -----Original Message----- -> Any of the following would be pleasing to the squirrel-eaters I've known: -> -> Mad Dog -> Thunderbird -> Boone's Farm -> Red Mountain -> Annie Green Springs -> -> Recommended dosage: 32 oz. per guest, on an empty stomach . . . but hide -> all the guns, first . . . From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Dec 14 09:06:48 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) References: <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15384.19981.676941.488790@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C194F73.24D7BA5C@arrl.net> Message-ID: <3C1A1588.75407B96@idirect.com> >no wrote: > Pricey beasts, those bridges. Looked into that a few years ago when > my company was thinking of replacing the 11/45's with the Osprey > board. Unibus bridges were about $2500 each. > -nick Jerome Fine replies: The price of the bridges has not been reduced, but the Osprey was a relatively expensive solution - much more than the cost of the bridge if I remember correctly. Also, limited in CPU power to the hardware that is used. A less expensive solution - the difference effectively makes the cost of the bridge zero or even negative - is Ersatz-11 http://www.dbit.com/ Obviously you require the commercial version and you still run on a PC, but as the speed of the PC increases (at increased cost of course), so does Ersatz-11. Not so with the Osprey hardware. And I seem to remember that the cost without the bridge was twice the cost of even the first the Ersatz-11 license. I am not saying that Osprey is a bad solution. When I first saw a system that used the J11 chip (so that the speed was about identical to an 11/93 - maybe a bit faster since the memory may have been integrated more efficiently), I was very impressed. It was probably about 5 or 6 years ago - well before the commercial version of Ersatz-11 which initially arrived without an adapter capability. Later, the Osprey solution started to use their own CPU to replace the J11 - had to eventually since DEC cut off supply of the J11 chips. But the Osprey is still much slower than Ersatz-11 is able to achieve now on a Pentium IV. I think that on the fastest Pentium IV, Ersatz-11 is now able to execute PDP-11 instructions more quickly than any other emulator and/or hardware. And since the original trial version of Ersatz-11 is probably close to 10 years old, maybe I am not even off topic. Does you company still have the PDP-11/45 systems? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 21:55:53 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? References: Message-ID: <3C1826C9.D639FE67@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > This is a page about a B205. I'll eventually get a page up about my > G20M/200. > > http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/index.html >> > From: Matthew Sell >> > I used to work for a company that was in the process of decommissioning a > > Burroughs mainframe (or minicomputer?) in the early '90's. Was not Burroughs and a few other companies noted for destroying all old equipment and leasing only? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 10:43:00 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? In-Reply-To: <3C1826C9.D639FE67@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: This might be of interest/use to you, a B205 command list: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/images/manuals/b205/commands/commands.ht ml -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ben Franchuk -> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 9:56 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Burroughs - any information? -> -> -> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: -> > -> > This is a page about a B205. I'll eventually get a page up about my -> > G20M/200. -> > -> > http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/index.html -> >> > From: Matthew Sell -> >> > I used to work for a company that was in the process of -> decommissioning a -> > > Burroughs mainframe (or minicomputer?) in the early '90's. -> Was not Burroughs and a few other companies noted for destroying all old -> equipment -> and leasing only? -> -- -> Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- -> www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html -> From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Dec 14 10:44:21 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? References: <3C1826C9.D639FE67@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <027501c184be$9506fb80$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I did obtain about 5 TC5500 consoles and a B80 back in the '80. They were rather large for their computing power and no software was obtainable so I scrapped them. I still have a couple of kilo's TTL-chips from them, with their own Burroughs legacy partnumbers. Very rugged design though! Maybe you could get some old "B" hardeware but software was out of the question. Sipke de Wal ----------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Franchuk To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 4:55 AM Subject: Re: Burroughs - any information? > Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > > This is a page about a B205. I'll eventually get a page up about my > > G20M/200. > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/index.html > >> > From: Matthew Sell > >> > I used to work for a company that was in the process of decommissioning a > > > Burroughs mainframe (or minicomputer?) in the early '90's. > Was not Burroughs and a few other companies noted for destroying all old > equipment > and leasing only? > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 15:26:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? In-Reply-To: <3C1826C9.D639FE67@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Was not Burroughs and a few other companies noted for destroying all old > equipment > and leasing only? Yes. Peace... Sridhar From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 08:17:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > This is a page about a B205. I'll eventually get a page up about my > G20M/200. Oh shit he's got the Jupter II helm! Talk about your unobtainium... -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 22:25:14 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3C182DAA.78809EC7@jetnet.ab.ca> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > This is a page about a B205. I'll eventually get a page up about my > > G20M/200. > > Oh shit he's got the Jupter II helm! > > Talk about your unobtainium... > > -dq And a good replica is over $3K - that many switches, lights and decals are not cheap. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 14 08:42:18 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? References: <01C1841C.741B9540@mse-d03> <5.1.0.14.0.20011214011817.00ae7e40@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <008b01c184ad$8804a920$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Matt: > Are there any web-based sources of information regarding the > Burroughs line of computers and peripherals? I had a nice exchange with >> comp.sys.unisys << (thnx, Chad, Stan) about 6 months ago. A nice guy there gave me a full pdf manual for a the Burroughs "A series" command set (MCP). I was lucky enough to dive up a 'Micro A' for free a while back. I got the impression that C.S.U had a lot of Burroughs 'lifers' living on it, who'd like to see new interest. John A. From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 09:42:56 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? In-Reply-To: <008b01c184ad$8804a920$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: There should be plenty of Burroughs items and info out there since the US Govt had tons of Burroughs/Sperry/Unisys stuff not more than 10 yrs ago - we used Burrouhgs B20 systems at Chanute that ran BTOS for all of our docs and other assorted things. The systems all got packed with our course in 93 when we shut down and probably stayed in storage until the new crew opened it all up at Vandenburg a few years later. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Allain -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:42 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Burroughs - any information? -> -> -> Matt: -> > Are there any web-based sources of information regarding the -> > Burroughs line of computers and peripherals? -> -> I had a nice exchange with >> comp.sys.unisys << (thnx, Chad, -> Stan) about 6 months ago. A nice guy there gave me a -> full pdf manual for a the Burroughs "A series" command set (MCP). -> I was lucky enough to dive up a 'Micro A' for free a while back. -> -> I got the impression that C.S.U had a lot of Burroughs 'lifers' -> living on it, who'd like to see new interest. -> -> John A. -> -> -> From fernande at internet1.net Fri Dec 14 10:20:04 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? References: Message-ID: <3C1A26B4.891EB8C3@internet1.net> The Post Office still uses Unisys stuff, although, I think they may be switching to IBM. I saw the Portage (next city over) PO had new looking IBM stuff a few weeks back. Unisys had/has a govt. division of the company. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > There should be plenty of Burroughs items and info out there since the US > Govt had tons of Burroughs/Sperry/Unisys stuff not more than 10 yrs ago - we > used Burrouhgs B20 systems at Chanute that ran BTOS for all of our docs and > other assorted things. The systems all got packed with our course in 93 when > we shut down and probably stayed in storage until the new crew opened it all > up at Vandenburg a few years later. From mhstein at usa.net Fri Dec 14 01:30:18 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: <01C18447.76FE3440@mse-d03> Sounds like the same tapes as the Burroughs cassettes I've used and still have a few of. If so, case construction and tape characteristics aside, they also have BOT/EOT holes 17.7 inches from the leader.. mike --------------------Original Message--------------- Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:42:06 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive > > just off the center of the top of the cassette, and they have > > two slide > > tabs to turn write-protection on/off. Otherwise, it looks just like a > > regular analog cassette tape. > > No problem, just file a notch in your "analog" cassette. ;) Is your data really worth that _little_ that it's not worth buying the right tape? > I'm not sure that would work, but given the improved resolution, etc, in > cassette tapes during the last several years, it just may. I am pretty sure the coercivity of the tape in the 'digital' cassettes is considerably high that that of the tape in normal audio cassettes... - -tony From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 06:45:45 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B47@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Maybe, but doubtful. This was more of a tape backup device. It uses > > > DIGITAL cassettes. If you've never seen one, they have a square notch > > > just off the center of the top of the cassette, and they have two slide > > > tabs to turn write-protection on/off. Otherwise, it looks just like a > > > regular analog cassette tape. > > > > Yeah, I've got a drive from an old Burroughs teller machine... > > > > Had a bunch of Burroughs stuff I dumped about five years > > ago, though I still have a direct-wire 1200 baud modem... > > I have a complete (almost working) Burroughs computer. For a long time, I kept a cage that contained a card rack and a fixed-head disk drive. It would power up, and make characteristic "booting" sounds. I just wasn't interested in computers much during that late 80s/early 90s when everything started to go Microsoft... -dq From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Fri Dec 14 03:55:00 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021972@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Hi all, > >I always wondered why the 2 existed in the first place, > since without a hard > >drive and only .5mb of memory it was useless for anything other than > >MacWorks. > > Once you take a look at your's, since you said it started > life as a '2' and you upgraded it to a 2/5, would you mind sending > me the model/serial/date numbers off of it? Here's the scoop: Model: A6S0300 Memory Option: A6S0304 SN: A3322146 Manufactured: 3322 Unfortunately there's no prototype info, but both of my memory modules are dated 1982 and one of them has the 'fabled' ET logo....... cheers -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From cbajpai at mediaone.net Fri Dec 14 05:15:07 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021972@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Message-ID: <000201c18490$967cc180$017ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> What is the 'ET' logo? -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:55 AM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: What's with this Lisa? Hi all, > >I always wondered why the 2 existed in the first place, > since without a hard > >drive and only .5mb of memory it was useless for anything other than > >MacWorks. > > Once you take a look at your's, since you said it started > life as a '2' and you upgraded it to a 2/5, would you mind sending > me the model/serial/date numbers off of it? Here's the scoop: Model: A6S0300 Memory Option: A6S0304 SN: A3322146 Manufactured: 3322 Unfortunately there's no prototype info, but both of my memory modules are dated 1982 and one of them has the 'fabled' ET logo....... cheers -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 06:36:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021972@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> References: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021972@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Message-ID: >Model: A6S0300 >Memory Option: A6S0304 >SN: A3322146 >Manufactured: 3322 Mine is the same model# with a date code of 3248. You said you bought the machine as a plain '2' and upgraded it to a 2/5? >Unfortunately there's no prototype info, but both of my memory modules are >dated 1982 and one of them has the 'fabled' ET logo....... I've not checked for the 'proto' marking mentioned on one of the connectors, but I know it's on the front panel. I've got four memory cards here, one of which still had it's price sticker of $1495.00 marked down to $995. One of the ones not installed also ahas the ET marking. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Fri Dec 14 07:28:02 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021977@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > >Model: A6S0300 > >Memory Option: A6S0304 > >SN: A3322146 > >Manufactured: 3322 > > Mine is the same model# with a date code of 3248. You said > you bought the machine as a plain '2' and upgraded it to a 2/5? Yep. The vanilla 2 was a 512kb machine with the 400K floppy, which is why it was pretty useless, the 2/5 has the profile but still half a meg so it won't run some of the 7/7 apps so I got the extra ET card from ebay. Took me nearly a year to get a complete spares kit :) The 2/10 was completely different...... I'm not entirely sure whether the extra IO board I got is from a Lisa 1 since it doesn't have capacity for the battery pack. There's pix on my museum site if anyone wants to check for me! > I've not checked for the 'proto' marking mentioned on one of > the connectors, but I know it's on the front panel. I've got four > memory cards here, one of which still had it's price sticker of > $1495.00 marked down to $995. One of the ones not installed also > ahas the ET marking. Is there an Apple brand on there as well? I'm assuming ET might be the manufacturer..... cheers -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 08:03:57 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021977@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> References: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021977@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Message-ID: >Yep. The vanilla 2 was a 512kb machine with the 400K floppy, which is why it >was pretty useless, the 2/5 has the profile but still half a meg so it won't >run some of the 7/7 apps so I got the extra ET card from ebay. Took me >nearly a year to get a complete spares kit :) The 2/10 was completely >different...... I understand the differences but have never been able to make a correlation between the model numbers and the various versions of the machines. >Is there an Apple brand on there as well? I'm assuming ET might be the >manufacturer..... It has the Apple logo and 'Apple Computer Inc.' running from the bottom of the board towards the top, just about at the center of the connector. I'll have to take a look at the other memory boards later. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Fri Dec 14 09:24:54 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: What's with this Lisa? Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02197B@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > I understand the differences but have never been able to make > a correlation between the model numbers and the various versions of > the machines. Ah, OK. > It has the Apple logo and 'Apple Computer Inc.' running from > the bottom of the board towards the top, just about at the center of > the connector. I'll have to take a look at the other memory boards > later. Time for some googling I think! -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Fri Dec 14 03:59:01 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: USENET from 1981 to present on google Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021973@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > My first post seems to be from 1996/10/08. I am, quite simply, not > worthy. Me too. . My first post was an ultrix problem on 6th Oct '95; not bad I suppose, only 4 years after TBL's first announcement of that there web. Mmmm text only sigs :) -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 06:41:42 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B45@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > BTW, now that you're _down south_, has anyone turned > > > > you onto the burgers at Crystal's ? > > > > > > I don't believe I've had them yet, no...are they good? > > > > They're sometimes known as "southern sliders"... when you > > see them, you'll know why... > > I will try some. :-) > > > And re: squirrels, lemme tell ya, I wouldn't be alive > > if they *weren't* food... there were times when squirrel > > wasn't the usual delicacy, but the only damned thing my > > ancestors could find to eat. > > Oh yes, my ancestors too...but as long as it was THEM and not ME! ;) Ok, Ok, I've never been accused of being civilized... ;) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 08:10:18 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I had a hard time finding beef tongue or brains in the U.S. These are > considered a delicacy in many other places. %-) In this part of the midwest, pork brains are a bit more common than beef brains... dad loved 'em, I thought they were cool to look at, but never tried 'em. I hope we don't drift into discussing that strangest beef organ meat of all... ;) From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 10:50:56 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I hope we don't drift into discussing that strangest > beef organ meat of all... I've been trying hard to refrain. But, now that *you* mention it, YUM! YUM! YUM! Doc, who grew up working the spring branding & cutting on his uncles' ranches.... From fernande at internet1.net Fri Dec 14 09:25:21 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Cats around computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B36@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3.0.2.32.20011213225811.01015e40@obregon.multi.net.co> <15385.40031.444252.144172@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C1A19E1.3EDB94B7@internet1.net> Dave, did you have to close your eyes during the "Chilled monkey brain" scene in Indiana Jones :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh yes, I agree 100% that it's all just a matter of what we're > culturally used to...but that knowlege will not stop the huge tide of > spewing vomit that will ensue if someone puts brains in front of my > face. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 14 11:03:19 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Not a thing wrong with squirrel and you can scramble the brains with eggs > and it's a southern delicasy, especially in the Carolinas. Rabbit is also a > rodent and many big dollar restaurants serve it. Racoon is a rodent, eaten > throughout the US and Canada. Woodchuck, groundhod, prairie dog, etc are all > knawing animals, or rodents, and are very good and helps to keep the > woodland poluations in check. Rats and mice are easten in some places for > either lack of knowledge of lack of other foods and they pay the price in > getting wonderful deadly diseases that eventually are worse than starving. > > Guinea pigs are pretty good too, just not very big. USAF survival school > gets you used to lots of odd stuff, the worst (I think) being termites. Actually neither rabbits nor racoons are rodents... Raccoons are order carnivora and rabbits are order lagomorpha Peter Wallace From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 11:30:45 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B57@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I hope we don't drift into discussing that strangest > > beef organ meat of all... > > I've been trying hard to refrain. But, now that *you* mention it, > > YUM! YUM! YUM! > > Doc, who grew up working the spring branding & cutting on > his uncles' ranches.... Also popular with lonely rancher's wives, I hear... ;) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 17:07:05 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: Re: Cats around computers (Chad Fernandez) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B36@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3.0.2.32.20011213225811.01015e40@obregon.multi.net.co> <15385.40031.444252.144172@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C1A19E1.3EDB94B7@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15386.34329.144368.470411@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 14, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Dave, did you have to close your eyes during the "Chilled monkey brain" > scene in Indiana Jones :-) YES. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 06:47:44 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B48@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > But I ask the question is bigger always better? I am the guy who still > uses 640x480 cause this way he can read the screen and the menus at > the same time. I suspect the wheel of computer design will turn again > towards 'smaller' CISC (pdp8-style?) machines as the interconnect > in chips between modules is becoming larger compared to the the gate > speeds. I never understand this- why not kick it up to 1027x768 and use the Windows Appearance controls to make the menus and screen fonts larger? That way graphics look nice and text is still readable and things you have to click on (buttons can be made bigger too) are bigger targets... It's the best of both worlds, instead of being limited to one... Regards, -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 22:12:11 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B48@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3C182A9B.9D38CC5C@jetnet.ab.ca> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I never understand this- why not kick it up to 1027x768 and use the > Windows Appearance controls to make the menus and screen fonts larger? My vga monitors have a tendency to die, thus a old VGA is easy to come by and not have to FUCK with windows 'SAFE' mode. > That way graphics look nice and text is still readable and things > you have to click on (buttons can be made bigger too) are bigger > targets... I want smaller menus and buttons. I like a window filled with what ever I am reading, not clutter on the screen. It makes no sense to me to switch to a higher res and then defeat it by having bigger fonts. When I was running Linux I ran at 800x600 but only so I could run bigger fonts to give me a 80x25 xterm window. Also most on the games I play only run at 640x480 due to speed ( P-150 here) or screen limitations. > It's the best of both worlds, instead of being limited to one... I have Hi-Res, I just don't use it. This was brought to you by a 640x480 16 bit color display and the number 100110. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ncherry at home.com Fri Dec 14 06:58:22 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: Message-ID: <3C19F76E.92ECF47E@home.com> Doc wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > A firewall with a video card? Gotta love them PCs. ;) > > Yeah... Most distros don't even have a headless install option, and not > all PCs will even complete a POST without a video card. But more > relevant is the fact that hardly anybody I know, even the geeks, knows > what a null-modem cable is for, let alone own a serial terminal. I prefer a terminal server. I picked up a Cisco ASM for $50 for o100 ports (64 ports in decimal ;-). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From ncherry at home.com Fri Dec 14 07:03:51 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <15385.17231.214050.855003@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200112140144.RAA13048@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <15385.26805.533873.304318@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C180783.6C6A43AF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3C19F8B7.3C158063@home.com> Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Oh yes, most definitely...I run NetBSD in production at a number of > > sites, and it's wonderful. I only mentioned Linux specifically > > because we were specifically discussing Linux. While I like Linux a > > LOT, I don't consider it production-ready enough to bet my dinner on > > it. > Windows/Linux both need several meg to run. 32 bit addressing is the > killer here. The 386+ is optimized for 8 bit or 32 bit addressing. > Guess what gets used the most. > Now Give me OS/9, that was easy on memory. 8 users, 2 drives, 2 printers, 192K of ram - the Gimix Ghost. Damn I wish I had that system! I have 3 6809 systems that run modified Coco OS9 (level I). I love it actually! :-) I think I have 2 or 3 68K OS9/OSK boxes. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 12 22:22:38 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:59 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 References: <15385.17231.214050.855003@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200112140144.RAA13048@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <15385.26805.533873.304318@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C180783.6C6A43AF@jetnet.ab.ca> <3C19F8B7.3C158063@home.com> Message-ID: <3C182D0E.B0D7543@jetnet.ab.ca> Neil Cherry wrote: > 8 users, 2 drives, 2 printers, 192K of ram - the Gimix Ghost. Damn I wish > I had that system! I have 3 6809 systems that run modified Coco OS9 (level > I). I love it actually! :-) I think I have 2 or 3 68K OS9/OSK boxes. I had a Coco III and could run OS9/level II ( I just had level #1) but my floppy controller died and could not get expansion memory to go past 128k. Later too the monitor died and there was no reason to keep the coco as I had a PC with a HD at that time. A new 6809 level 2 system would not be that hard to create from scratch but parts are getting scarce. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 09:51:44 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B52@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I never understand this- why not kick it up to 1027x768 and use the > > Windows Appearance controls to make the menus and screen > fonts larger? > > My vga monitors have a tendency to die, thus a old VGA is easy to come > by and not have to FUCK with windows 'SAFE' mode. Understood, I get by on used VGA monitors, too... > > That way graphics look nice and text is still readable and things > > you have to click on (buttons can be made bigger too) are bigger > > targets... > > I want smaller menus and buttons. I like a window filled with what ever > I am reading, not clutter on the screen. It makes no sense to me to switch > to a higher res and then defeat it by having bigger fonts. When I was running > Linux I ran at 800x600 but only so I could run bigger fonts to give > me a 80x25 xterm window. Also most on the games I play only run at 640x480 due to > speed ( P-150 here) or screen limitations. I mistakenly ASSumed you went with 640x480 because everything is bigger and easier to see... the guys around here who run 1024x768 instead of the 1280x1024 they *could* run do it for that reason... -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 14 10:17:03 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > Remember Linux too needs lots of memory. With >16 meg on a video card > your OS needs about 16x that. It is the video display that is the > killer. Actually, Linux will scrape by on 2 megs. (Last I checked, admittedly with a 2.1 kernel -- it even ran the MGR windowing system) Windows won't. :) Currently, I don't think that qualifies as "lots of memory," though I'd prefer it took less. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 14 10:21:55 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Yeah... Most distros don't even have a headless install > option, and not > all PCs will even complete a POST without a video card. But more > relevant is the fact that hardly anybody I know, even the geeks, knows > what a null-modem cable is for, let alone own a serial terminal. You must not hang around with very high-quality geeks. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 14 11:03:56 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 14, 01 10:21:55 am Message-ID: <200112141703.MAA32374@wordstock.com> > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > > Yeah... Most distros don't even have a headless install > > option, and not > > all PCs will even complete a POST without a video card. But more > > relevant is the fact that hardly anybody I know, even the geeks, knows > > what a null-modem cable is for, let alone own a serial terminal. > > You must not hang around with very high-quality geeks. > That would be the "new" geek who believes the first computer was a Pentium. I was setting up my C64 next to my PC one day and a "geek" mad the comment "Oh you can hookup the 64 to the PCs video switchbox"... Is it that hard to belive that a computer could possibly output something *other* then VGA for its vidoe?!? Grrrrrr.... Bryan From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 11:41:03 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <200112141703.MAA32374@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Hell my first network was through a null modem cable, from my Osborne to a serial display terminal. On a PC to PC it's basically swpping pin 2 to 3, 3 to 2 so that xmit goes to recv and vice-versie. You're both right though - I know these "experts" with A+ that have never hard of a 386 processor let alone a 68000 series, you mention Motorola and they go "the radio makers?". Of course many people on this list work on machines that predate me, like the Burroughs 205 that I found the command card on the net for. I got into all of this around 75 so I technically am a rookie to many of the heavy iron geeks on the list. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:04 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 -> -> -> > -> > > -----Original Message----- -> > > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] -> > -> > > Yeah... Most distros don't even have a headless install -> > > option, and not -> > > all PCs will even complete a POST without a video card. But more -> > > relevant is the fact that hardly anybody I know, even the -> geeks, knows -> > > what a null-modem cable is for, let alone own a serial terminal. -> > -> > You must not hang around with very high-quality geeks. -> > -> -> That would be the "new" geek who believes the first computer was -> a Pentium. -> I was setting up my C64 next to my PC one day and a "geek" mad -> the comment -> "Oh you can hookup the 64 to the PCs video switchbox"... Is it -> that hard to -> belive that a computer could possibly output something *other* then VGA -> for its vidoe?!? Grrrrrr.... -> -> Bryan -> From dmc!njc at ns2.ezwind.net Fri Dec 14 12:30:01 2001 From: dmc!njc at ns2.ezwind.net (dmc!njc@ns2.ezwind.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Dec 14, 2001 11:41:03 AM Message-ID: <200112141830.NAA13461@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Russ Blakeman > >Hell my first network was through a null modem cable, from my Osborne to a >serial display terminal. On a PC to PC it's basically swpping pin 2 to 3, 3 >to 2 so that xmit goes to recv and vice-versie. You're both right though - I >know these "experts" with A+ that have never hard of a 386 processor let >alone a 68000 series, you mention Motorola and they go "the radio makers?". Hehe, there is irony in that last statement (as history goes round full circle :-). BTW, I've been pretty good at getting most serial devices to communicate with each other. With some trickery I can get some devices to jump layer 1 protocols. A good breakout box can let you go a great distance! But I haven't done a whole lot of current loop (wet or dry [zap] ;-). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 11:46:29 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <200112141703.MAA32374@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > That would be the "new" geek who believes the first computer was a Pentium. > I was setting up my C64 next to my PC one day and a "geek" mad the comment > "Oh you can hookup the 64 to the PCs video switchbox"... Is it that hard to > belive that a computer could possibly output something *other* then VGA > for its vidoe?!? Grrrrrr.... OK. I guess I gotta come clean now. I'm actually a West Texas roughneck, incognito. When I first started seeing ads for "Pentium", I thought it was a computer *game*. The first time I ever sat at a keyboard was mid-95. I just happen to believe that no matter what it is you do, knowing how "it" came to be is important. Plus, of course, I really enjoy having the only around. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 11:17:36 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > > Yeah... Most distros don't even have a headless install > > option, and not > > all PCs will even complete a POST without a video card. But more > > relevant is the fact that hardly anybody I know, even the geeks, knows > > what a null-modem cable is for, let alone own a serial terminal. > > You must not hang around with very high-quality geeks. Heh. I guess you'd have to define "quality". However, you have to remember this is Austin, the quintessential techno-boomtown. If it's older than 6 months, it's useless. There aren't really even many classic motorcycles here, considering the average earnings. Me & Bill (and some guys at Goodwill) are holding the fort, though. See ya later, Doc From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 11:35:27 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from Christopher Smith at "Dec 14, 1 10:21:55 am" Message-ID: <200112141735.JAA08182@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Yeah... Most distros don't even have a headless install > > option, and not > > all PCs will even complete a POST without a video card. But more > > relevant is the fact that hardly anybody I know, even the geeks, knows > > what a null-modem cable is for, let alone own a serial terminal. > You must not hang around with very high-quality geeks. I know I don't; they all hate Macs. :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- They make a desert and call it peace. -- Tacitus --------------------------- From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 14 11:49:04 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:00 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Pope [mailto:bpope@wordstock.com] > That would be the "new" geek who believes the first computer > was a Pentium. > I was setting up my C64 next to my PC one day and a "geek" > mad the comment > "Oh you can hookup the 64 to the PCs video switchbox"... Is > it that hard to > belive that a computer could possibly output something > *other* then VGA > for its vidoe?!? Grrrrrr.... Ha! Actually, along those lines, I have an SGI with a Galileo board, which I've considered plugging my Atari 600XL/Commodore 128/Amiga/Atari ST/Apple IIGS, etc, into. It would be a great computing experience on a 21" monitor. :) The problem is that the SGI is a bit too sensitive for most composite video devices up to and including the Nintendo-64. They "flicker," I assume because of a slightly slow refresh rate. I've thought about writing some software that "simulates" the slower fade-out of a television CRT in a quick, dirty manner -- by simply dropping alternate frames, or the like. Anyway, back on the subject, don't get me started on idiots who don't know a serial-port from a hole in their head, and who couldn't tell an operating system from a microsoft product. ;) (To whit: I worked at one point with a guy who was convinced that every operating system in the world was derived in some manner from MS-DOS. Yes, that includes the Macintosh operating system too. "CP/M? What's that? Unix is based on MS-DOS, right?" The guy was a "programmer.") Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From kentborg at borg.org Fri Dec 14 13:05:52 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C17FAF2.27F8EC20@jetnet.ab.ca>; from bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:48:50PM -0700 References: <200112132200.RAA04036@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <3C17FAF2.27F8EC20@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20011214140552.C12904@borg.org> On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:48:50PM -0700, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Remember Linux too needs lots of memory. With >16 meg on a video card > your OS needs about 16x that. It is the video display that is the > killer. X wants lots of memory. And once you have X up you probably want to run some common bloat-ware (Netscape, Mozilla) and then you will start to need memory. But even then, I can run X and a zillion Netscape windows on my basement server. It has 64MB and, though it does use swap, it doesn't have to dip very deep. Granted, that is a lot more RAM than the olden days, but RAM is also a lot cheaper than the olden days. -kb From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 14 14:31:56 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <001b01c184de$60e7e1a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Doc > OK. I guess I gotta come clean now. I'm actually a West Texas >roughneck, incognito. When I first started seeing ads for "Pentium", I I saw pentium and thought... oh no, the fifth one from in-smell. Heck I got my first Pent (p166mmx) only 2 years ago! I'd rather not but hey the world crashes by them. Allison From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Dec 14 15:49:54 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Sridhar --- I might be able to use your help soon... I have a Cardinal Technologies PC10. It's a 386, with a 10" color (?) screen, and it's built just like a Mac SE! It's mfg in May '92, so it's almost on-topic. Has anyone seen one of these, or know of any docs for it? I'm wondering if I should put DOS6.22/Win3.11, or NetBSD on it. Of course, I still have a Win95 CD around. Maybe I could shoe-horn that on! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Boatman on the River of Suck [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] ! Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:22 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 ! ! ! On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: ! ! > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: ! > ! > > Since when has linux needed a video display card at all, ! let alone one ! > > with 16M of RAM? ! > ! > I'm pretty good at making small distros of FreeBSD. Some ! people like me ! > have gotten in to run in 4MB. The least I have ever done ! is 8MB. And ! > it's not unbearably slow on a 25MHz 386 embedded card. I ! suspect Linux is ! > similar. ! ! I've gotten NetBSD running fairly well in 2 MB. ! ! Peace... Sridhar ! From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 16:11:06 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Sridhar --- > I might be able to use your help soon... I have a Cardinal > Technologies PC10. It's a 386, with a 10" color (?) screen, and it's built > just like a Mac SE! It's mfg in May '92, so it's almost on-topic. Has anyone > seen one of these, or know of any docs for it? > I'm wondering if I should put DOS6.22/Win3.11, or NetBSD on it. Of > course, I still have a Win95 CD around. Maybe I could shoe-horn that on! I would stay away from Windows95, as it runs *really* *really* slow on 386's. Do you know how fast of a 386 and how much RAM? It would help in my telling you whether or not NetBSD will work well. Peace... Sridhar From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Dec 14 16:27:36 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E2@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Boatman on the River of Suck [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] ! ! ! On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: ! ! > Sridhar --- ! > I might be able to use your help soon... I have a Cardinal ! > Technologies PC10. It's a 386, with a 10" color (?) screen, ! > and it's built ! > just like a Mac SE! It's mfg in May '92, so it's almost ! > on-topic. Has anyone ! > seen one of these, or know of any docs for it? ! > I'm wondering if I should put DOS6.22/Win3.11, or ! > NetBSD on it. Of ! > course, I still have a Win95 CD around. Maybe I could ! > shoe-horn that on! ! ! I would stay away from Windows95, as it runs *really* *really* slow on ! 386's. Do you know how fast of a 386 and how much RAM? It ! would help in ! my telling you whether or not NetBSD will work well. Yeah, the Win95 comment was more of a wise-ass joke :) As for the details on the PC10, I'm gonna fire it up next week, and connect the Handbook to it, to back up the Handbook. It (the Handbook) has MS Interlink on it! Heh heh heh... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 16:48:21 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E2@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! I would stay away from Windows95, as it runs *really* *really* slow on > ! 386's. Do you know how fast of a 386 and how much RAM? It > ! would help in > ! my telling you whether or not NetBSD will work well. > > Yeah, the Win95 comment was more of a wise-ass joke :) As for the > details on the PC10, I'm gonna fire it up next week, and connect the > Handbook to it, to back up the Handbook. It (the Handbook) has MS Interlink > on it! Heh heh heh... Cool. I still use interlink a lot. Peace... Sridhar From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Dec 14 07:10:13 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <3C181AE5.AFBD51F8@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3.0.2.32.20011213230135.01018350@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011214081013.01026680@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:05 PM 12/12/01 -0700, Ben wrote: >Carlos Murillo wrote: >> Aztecs bred a special dog race, called "izcuintle", for >> culinary purposes. They're pretty ugly as they are >> hairless. But they're supposed to taste like pork. > > They also ate people too, that tastes like pork too. Only the high priests did that; when they sacrificed someone, they would eat the heart. There has been a debate among antropologists about the prevalence of cannibalism in most old cultures. The thing is, now that they have started to seriously analyze the evidence, they are finding that it was the norm rather than the exception. It was a case of not wanting to look for evidence of it. Anatomically modern humans have existed for 100K years or more; only recently have a lot of us become anti-cannibalistic. There is a recent article in Scientific American. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 12:07:04 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: OT: Re: OT: RE: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011214081013.01026680@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > There has been a debate among antropologists about the prevalence of > cannibalism in most old cultures. The thing is, now that they have > started to seriously analyze the evidence, they are finding that it > was the norm rather than the exception. It was a case of not wanting > to look for evidence of it. Anatomically modern humans have existed > for 100K years or more; only recently have a lot of us become > anti-cannibalistic. There is a recent article in Scientific American. If you're going to eat cow or pig or horse or squirrel, why not human? It's all just protein in the end. (Well, in the end it's something else, but when it goes in it's protein.) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 08:12:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > At 02:10 PM 12/13/01 -0700, Robert Feldman wrote: > >Do you (or someone you know) have a pet guinea pig? They were originally > >domesticated and raised as food, in Peru. I must say a good barbequed cuy > >(which is what they are called there) is quite tasty, though not much meat > >on them. > > Aztecs bred a special dog race, called "izcuintle", for > culinary purposes. They're pretty ugly as they are > hairless. But they're supposed to taste like pork. Don't know the breeds, but you can add the Koreans, Chinese, and Philipinos to the dig-comsumer list... Monkey is popular in the latter two as well... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 08:13:24 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Cats around computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Carlos Murillo wrote: > > Aztecs bred a special dog race, called "izcuintle", for > > culinary purposes. They're pretty ugly as they are > > hairless. But they're supposed to taste like pork. > > They also ate people too, that tastes like pork too. "Long Pork" ;) From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Dec 14 07:12:39 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011214081239.010226b4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 10:50 PM 12/13/01 -0800, you wrote: >Where on your scale do you put horse meat? The French love it. > > - don I've seen plenty of horsey bbq in Texas. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 10:35:11 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011214081239.010226b4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 10:50 PM 12/13/01 -0800, you wrote: > >Where on your scale do you put horse meat? The French love it. > > > > - don > > I've seen plenty of horsey bbq in Texas. I resemble that remark! Actually, I was living in Seattle, Wa. in the late '70s, and pretty much lived on horse. There was a butcher shop right by Pike Street Market that only sold horsemeat. About a third the price of beef, and no tougher than, say, chuck steak. Tasted pretty much the same. And yes, I know that "chuck steak" isn't. While we're on the subject, the best tacos I ever had were at the dog track in Juarez, Mexico. Ya gotta wonder.... Doc From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 11:34:54 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nogales is about the same, they must really eliminate the slow doggies. I've had stew in Korea made with pooch, no difference. In Montreal I've been at a little hole in the wall neighborhood restaurant that has hamburgers made of ground horse, probably a carry-over from their French relatives. What's the difference really unless the animal carries diseases that would kill you, like rats and mice. Hell a rattlesnake would kill you to protect itself from harm and I'd just as soon kill it and eat it to protect myself! I've seen things in people's refrigerators that are grosser than many living creatures but they eat the refrigerator "left-overs" (yeah war surplus from 'Nam maybe) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Doc -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:35 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question -> -> -> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: -> -> > At 10:50 PM 12/13/01 -0800, you wrote: -> > >Where on your scale do you put horse meat? The French love it. -> > > -> > > - don -> > -> > I've seen plenty of horsey bbq in Texas. -> -> I resemble that remark! -> Actually, I was living in Seattle, Wa. in the late '70s, and pretty -> much lived on horse. There was a butcher shop right by Pike Street -> Market that only sold horsemeat. About a third the price of beef, and no -> tougher than, say, chuck steak. Tasted pretty much the same. -> And yes, I know that "chuck steak" isn't. -> -> While we're on the subject, the best tacos I ever had were at the dog -> track in Juarez, Mexico. Ya gotta wonder.... -> -> -> Doc -> -> From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Dec 14 11:04:44 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20011214081239.010226b4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011214090344.02543c10@209.185.79.193> When OT threads die and then get resurrected under even wilder topics, its just not worth it. See ya, --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 08:16:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Heh...I wasn't going to mention this, but now I have no choice. ;) > > I used to say that I could sum up the French culture in two sentences: > "This is the most repulsive thing I've ever seen. I think I'll put it > in my mouth!" I am *so* glad I wasn't drinking coffee whan I read that! ROFL! From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 08:44:47 2001 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011214144447.61787.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ernest wrote: carried in squirrel brains . . > > I think that economics has a lot to do with why > "hillbilly's" eat things > that > I would never dream of. Are you sure? Contents of hot dogs are "Carcasses from old or thin cattle and swine; cheeks, jowls, hearts, tongues, lips, eyelids, gums, intestines, ears, nostrils, tails, snouts, tendons, windpipes, livers, kidneys, salt, fat, bones, blood, preservatives." steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ernestls at attbi.com Fri Dec 14 10:23:24 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: <20011214144447.61787.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of steve > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question > > > > --- Ernest wrote: > carried in squirrel brains . . > > > > I think that economics has a lot to do with why > > "hillbilly's" eat things > > that > > I would never dream of. > > Are you sure? Contents of hot dogs are > > "Carcasses from old or thin cattle and swine; cheeks, > jowls, hearts, tongues, lips, eyelids, gums, > intestines, ears, nostrils, tails, snouts, tendons, > windpipes, livers, kidneys, salt, fat, bones, blood, > preservatives." Um, right. That's why I don't eat hot dogs either, except for the very occasional $10.00 HD at a Mariner's baseball game, but those aren't real meat anyway so they don't count. I'll stick to filet minon or smoked salmon. You can keep your nostrils and chicken lips but thanks for making me imagine it so early in the morning. Eating meat is disgusting to think about anyway (picture naked fat woman loudly gnawing on a chicken leg while greasy blood dribbles down her double chin) but I don't take astrology seriously enough to be a vegetarian. My Mars is rising in your Venus. More sprouts please. ??? Of course, some of those cute young hippy chicks would be quite tasty, I'm sure. ;o) E. From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 15:29:47 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > Of course, some of those cute young hippy chicks would be quite tasty, I'm > sure. ;o) Indeed they do. Vegetarians for oral sex: The only meat that's fit to eat. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 11:47:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: <20011214144447.61787.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> from steve at "Dec 14, 1 06:44:47 am" Message-ID: <200112141747.JAA10478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > I think that economics has a lot to do with why > > "hillbilly's" eat things > > that > > I would never dream of. > > Are you sure? Contents of hot dogs are > > "Carcasses from old or thin cattle and swine; cheeks, > jowls, hearts, tongues, lips, eyelids, gums, > intestines, ears, nostrils, tails, snouts, tendons, > windpipes, livers, kidneys, salt, fat, bones, blood, > preservatives." On that note, watch the racoons in "The Great Outdoors." -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 09:14:14 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: <20011214050748.LZVU28277.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: But then go overseas, especially SE Asia, and you'd be surprised what they eat that we pet. Just as they frown on our consumption of cattle in India, we frown on other's consumpton of things we consider domestic pets or vermin. You ought to see what the Abs in OZ eat out in the field - not real pretty but then as the Rally's commercials say "you gotta eat" -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin -> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:06 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question -> -> -> > From: Dave McGuire -> -> > On December 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: -> > > > > Rodents *are* chewy... have you never had squirrel? -> > > > -> > > > NO. And I hope I NEVER get that hungry. -> > > -> > > Hey, it's not like I was playing Hannibal Lector to -> > > old Rocket J. himself... -> > -> > Yes, but still...NOT FOOD. ;) -> > -> > -Dave -> -> I'm with Dave. If I'm that hungry, I'll find out what the squirrels are -> eating (such as nuts), and eat the same thing! -> -> As I child I visited some of my hilljack relatives in the -> Appalachians and -> saw them eat these rodents. They especially enjoyed eating the brains. -> Blechhhh . . . rats with furry tails . . . recent research has also found -> evidence of a mad-cow-like disease which is carried in squirrel -> brains . . -> -> From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 09:52:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B53@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > You ought to see what the Abs in OZ eat out in the field - not real pretty > but then as the Rally's commercials say "you gotta eat" Honey beetles, sweet with a slight tang... -dq From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Dec 14 11:17:14 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: <15385.41898.34366.288398@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 14-Dec-2001 Dave McGuire wrote: > I used to say that I could sum up the French culture in two sentences: > "This is the most repulsive thing I've ever seen. I think I'll put it > in my mouth!" > > For the humor-impaired: This is a joke. No offense to any French > listmembers is intended. Here's a French recipe you can use to wow your familly during the merry festive holidays : Take one pound of butter, wrap it in bacon. Bread it and deap fry until golden brown. Serve with a cheese sauce. No, I'm not making this one up! -Philip PS : actually, my brother did :) From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 14 13:03:07 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question References: Message-ID: <002301c184d1$f7ab1420$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > No, I'm not making this one up! Somebody did. Butter can't be deep fried. >PS : actually, my brother did :) The three year old? John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 12:45:51 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question References: <002301c184d1$f7ab1420$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3C1A48DF.D341A088@jetnet.ab.ca> John Allain wrote: > > > No, I'm not making this one up! > > Somebody did. Butter can't be deep fried. > > >PS : actually, my brother did :) > > The three year old? > > John A. Why not do the same trick with Baked Alaska's - freeze it first, with cooked bacon and just the outside dough cooks. I would not eat it mind you. But you could cook it. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 15:37:45 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: <002301c184d1$f7ab1420$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > > No, I'm not making this one up! > > Somebody did. Butter can't be deep fried. Sure it can... it's just hard to do. It has to be in a sealed wrappage. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 15:33:30 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > On 14-Dec-2001 Dave McGuire wrote: > > I used to say that I could sum up the French culture in two sentences: > > "This is the most repulsive thing I've ever seen. I think I'll put it > > in my mouth!" > > > > For the humor-impaired: This is a joke. No offense to any French > > listmembers is intended. > > Here's a French recipe you can use to wow your familly during the merry > festive holidays : > Take one pound of butter, wrap it in bacon. Bread it and deap fry > until golden brown. Serve with a cheese sauce. > > No, I'm not making this one up! Sounds like meatballs broiled in cheese, doesn't it, Dave? Peace... Sridhar From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 11:29:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B56@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > While we're on the subject, the best tacos I ever had were > at the dog track in Juarez, Mexico. Ya gotta wonder.... Did they charge extra for "winners"? ;) From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Dec 14 13:55:21 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question Message-ID: >Somebody did. Butter can't be deep fried. That's what I thought about ice cream... but El Torito's (sp?) used to sell Deep Fried Ice Cream, it was basically chocolate chip ice cream, rolled in what seemed to be corn flakes crumbs, and deep fried. It has to be done fast, so the breading fries, but the ice cream doesn't get too melty. I would think butter (in particular a POUND of butter) that was wrapped in bacon AND breaded, could probably hold out long enough for the breading to fry. If the butter was started as very cold, or even slightly frozen, it could probably stay in long enough for the bacon to get pretty well cooked. However, the whole thing sounds pretty sick to me, so I am not apt to try it. -c From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 14:40:38 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chi-Chi's out here does the ice cream too and the coating they put on it combined with super frozen icecream allows a short dip in very hot fat. They sell Mozzarella sticks too that are frozen cheese with a crumbly coating that when cooked the coating gets hot and the cheese just gets soft. I'm sure the bacon insulates a frozen block of butter the same way but (as everyone else remarked) it really sounds yukky. I think I'll stick to my fried and baked rodents instead and use the butter to fry them in and the bacon to flavor them. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chris -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:55 PM -> To: Classic Computer -> Subject: Re: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question -> -> -> >Somebody did. Butter can't be deep fried. -> -> That's what I thought about ice cream... but El Torito's (sp?) used to -> sell Deep Fried Ice Cream, it was basically chocolate chip ice cream, -> rolled in what seemed to be corn flakes crumbs, and deep fried. -> It has to -> be done fast, so the breading fries, but the ice cream doesn't get too -> melty. -> -> I would think butter (in particular a POUND of butter) that was wrapped -> in bacon AND breaded, could probably hold out long enough for the -> breading to fry. If the butter was started as very cold, or even -> slightly -> frozen, it could probably stay in long enough for the bacon to -> get pretty -> well cooked. However, the whole thing sounds pretty sick to me, so I am -> not apt to try it. -> -> -c -> -> From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 08:03:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: OT time Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Not me, I gave up on religion and religious events some time ago, and have > given considerable thought to frank Costanza's "Festivus" as a new December > holiday. Maybe you can help me find a really nice aluminum pole before Festivus is over this year? Festivus! Festivus for the Rest of Us! ;) From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 08:49:57 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:01 2005 Subject: OT time In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Hey I found mine, it's your turn to locate your own. :-) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:03 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: OT time -> -> -> > Not me, I gave up on religion and religious events some time -> ago, and have -> > given considerable thought to frank Costanza's "Festivus" as a -> new December -> > holiday. -> -> Maybe you can help me find a really nice aluminum pole -> before Festivus is over this year? -> -> Festivus! Festivus for the Rest of Us! -> -> ;) -> From oliv555 at arrl.net Fri Dec 14 18:07:43 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) References: <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15384.19981.676941.488790@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C194F73.24D7BA5C@arrl.net> <3C1A1588.75407B96@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3C1A944F.4C2F5D0D@arrl.net> Jerome Fine wrote: > > >no wrote: > > > Pricey beasts, those bridges. Looked into that a few years ago when > > my company was thinking of replacing the 11/45's with the Osprey > > board. Unibus bridges were about $2500 each. > > -nick > > Jerome Fine replies: > > The price of the bridges has not been reduced, but the Osprey was a > relatively expensive solution - much more than the cost of the bridge > if I remember correctly. Also, limited in CPU power to the hardware > that is used. A less expensive solution - the difference effectively > makes the cost of the bridge zero or even negative - is Ersatz-11 > http://www.dbit.com/ > Obviously you require the commercial version and you still run on > a PC, but as the speed of the PC increases (at increased cost of > course), so does Ersatz-11. Not so with the Osprey hardware. > And I seem to remember that the cost without the bridge was twice > the cost of even the first the Ersatz-11 license. > > I am not saying that Osprey is a bad solution. When I first saw a > system that used the J11 chip (so that the speed was about identical > to an 11/93 - maybe a bit faster since the memory may have been > integrated more efficiently), I was very impressed. It was probably > about 5 or 6 years ago - well before the commercial version of > Ersatz-11 which initially arrived without an adapter capability. > Later, the Osprey solution started to use their own CPU to replace > the J11 - had to eventually since DEC cut off supply of the J11 chips. > But the Osprey is still much slower than Ersatz-11 is able to achieve > now on a Pentium IV. I think that on the fastest Pentium IV, Ersatz-11 > is now able to execute PDP-11 instructions more quickly than any > other emulator and/or hardware. And since the original trial version > of Ersatz-11 is probably close to 10 years old, maybe I am not > even off topic. > > Does you company still have the PDP-11/45 systems? > Yes, but not for long. They are hooked up to a DC-10 flight simulator but part of the Sep 11 aftermath was the downsizing of the airlines and, in particular, the permanent grounding of our DC-10 fleet. Making this trainer irrelevant. Its about to be sold. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Dec 14 09:44:16 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A051@MAIL10> Does anyone know what chip was used for the MITS serial boards? I thought that it was the 6850, but I could be wrong. Rich From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 14 10:33:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A051@MAIL10> Message-ID: <001101c184bc$ff30f080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure why I belive this, but ISTR that it used an AY1013 UART. I've got a listing of a CP/M BIOS for that card, so I can look it up, but not right away. regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'ClassCompList'" Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:44 AM Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Does anyone know what chip was used for the MITS serial boards? I thought > that it was the 6850, but I could be wrong. > > Rich > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 10:47:31 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B55@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Does anyone know what chip was used for the MITS serial boards? I thought > that it was the 6850, but I could be wrong. Weren't a lot of people using the 8251 back in those days? I had to play some tricks in getting an interrupt-driver written for the 8251... this was for the redoubtable Data General One, a sort cool, sorta nasty laptop... -dq From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 14 12:19:14 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B55@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Does anyone know what chip was used for the MITS serial boards? I thought > > that it was the 6850, but I could be wrong. > > Weren't a lot of people using the 8251 back in those days? > > I had to play some tricks in getting an interrupt-driver > written for the 8251... this was for the redoubtable > Data General One, a sort cool, sorta nasty laptop... > > -dq I always thought the 8251 was a pretty kick-ass chip. I learned a lot about it since the Royal Alphatronic PC that I've got (somewhere in this disaster of mine) uses it. I was pleasantly surprised a number of years ago when I discovered someone had made a BYE insert for it. :) g. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 14 14:11:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B55@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <001801c184db$92855380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Back in those days, the raw UARTs were more affordable than the 6850 or 8251. The latter two cost 10x what the UARTs cost. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:47 AM Subject: RE: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > Does anyone know what chip was used for the MITS serial boards? I thought > > that it was the 6850, but I could be wrong. > > Weren't a lot of people using the 8251 back in those days? > > I had to play some tricks in getting an interrupt-driver > written for the 8251... this was for the redoubtable > Data General One, a sort cool, sorta nasty laptop... > > -dq > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 14 11:55:50 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <003101c184c8$92096760$6b7b7b7b@ajp> If it's the SIO-(A or B) then it's one com2502 or any of the related uarts. If its the 2-SIO then a pair of 6850s (better board too). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:09 AM Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? >Does anyone know what chip was used for the MITS serial boards? I thought >that it was the 6850, but I could be wrong. > >Rich > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 14 12:04:17 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <005601c184c9$c09a11a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> 8251 was an OK chip, it had bugs, FYI there are three versions and each has it's oddities! I have tons of them and use them but, you do have to be aware of the oddities. The worst ones are initial programming after reset (buffer clear bug) and the repeats last character on /cts false if TX shifter is not empty (8251A). However the 2SIO didn't use it. NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was the 8250. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Gene Buckle To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:29 PM Subject: RE: MITS 2SIO serial chip? >> > Does anyone know what chip was used for the MITS serial boards? I thought >> > that it was the 6850, but I could be wrong. >> >> Weren't a lot of people using the 8251 back in those days? >> >> I had to play some tricks in getting an interrupt-driver >> written for the 8251... this was for the redoubtable >> Data General One, a sort cool, sorta nasty laptop... >> >> -dq > >I always thought the 8251 was a pretty kick-ass chip. I learned a lot >about it since the Royal Alphatronic PC that I've got (somewhere in this >disaster of mine) uses it. I was pleasantly surprised a number of years >ago when I discovered someone had made a BYE insert for it. :) > >g. > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 14 13:42:20 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <005601c184c9$c09a11a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > the 8250. Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. g. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 12:48:30 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <3C1A497E.EA431EC8@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Buckle wrote: > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > the 8250. > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > g. CHEAP ! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 14 13:28:08 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > the 8250. > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > g. > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts on the bus (wrong on both counts) The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift register that had a (unused) tri-state The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge Peter Wallace From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 14 14:24:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <003c01c184dd$61e63440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Horsefeathers! The reason they did all the stupid stuff they (IBM) did was because INTEL told them to, since there was nobody on the PC team smart enough to design a microcomputer, yet dumb enough to risk doing it in their (IBM's) corporate environment. ISTR that the original cause for the presence of the 8255 was the need for it in the parallel port (see the comments in the original BIOS listings in the tech ref). The 8250 was a fine chip for the application, though I wonder why they used the DIP version. There were better choices available, but they didn't want to lose the serial port board business by putting two of them on the same card, and by that time serial I/O chips tended to have between 2 and 8 ports on them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > the 8250. > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > g. > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts on the > bus (wrong on both counts) > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift register > that had a (unused) tri-state > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > Peter Wallace > > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 14 15:19:20 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <003c01c184dd$61e63440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Horsefeathers! The reason they did all the stupid stuff they (IBM) did was > because INTEL told them to, since there was nobody on the PC team smart enough > to design a microcomputer, yet dumb enough to risk doing it in their (IBM's) > corporate environment. ISTR that the original cause for the presence of the > 8255 was the need for it in the parallel port (see the comments in the original > BIOS listings in the tech ref). Fishfeathers! I stand by my original post. whether Intel helped create the mess or not is immaterial... > The 8250 was a fine chip for the application, though I wonder why they used the > DIP version. What other 8250 option than 40 pin DIP was available in 1981? There were better choices available, but they didn't want to lose > the serial port board business by putting two of them on the same card, and by > that time serial I/O chips tended to have between 2 and 8 ports on them. Nonsense, What 8 port chips were available in 1981? Were there even any 2 port chips for the Intel bus? > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > > > g. > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts on the > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift register > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 14 16:36:56 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <003601c184ef$d6253f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 2:19 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Horsefeathers! The reason they did all the stupid stuff they (IBM) did was > > because INTEL told them to, since there was nobody on the PC team smart enough > > to design a microcomputer, yet dumb enough to risk doing it in their (IBM's) > > corporate environment. ISTR that the original cause for the presence of the > > 8255 was the need for it in the parallel port (see the comments in the original > > BIOS listings in the tech ref). > > Fishfeathers! I stand by my original post. whether Intel helped create the > mess or not is immaterial... > Nobody, including the dumbest at IBM, was dumb enough to use the high-level, positive edge-triggered interrupt without pressure from Intel. Apparently Intel had ONE guy at some time in history who devised that ridiculously stupid approach to interrupt processing and built it into their "scheme" which was followed by a series of devices that lived on that scheme. Once they had it, they were stuck with it. > > > The 8250 was a fine chip for the application, though I wonder why they used the > > DIP version. > > What other 8250 option than 40 pin DIP was available in 1981? > PLCC-44 > > There were better choices available, but they didn't want to lose > > the serial port board business by putting two of them on the same card, and by > > that time serial I/O chips tended to have between 2 and 8 ports on them. > > Nonsense, What 8 port chips were available in 1981? Were there even any > 2 port chips for the Intel bus? > dual: Signetics 2681/68681, Z80 DART would have worked fine too, with the exception that the Intel bus didn't work with the "mode-2" interrupt, which you weren't require to use; octal: TCM78808 which looked pretty much like 8 2661's. I didn't like the package. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts on the > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift register > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 14 17:47:46 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <003601c184ef$d6253f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 2:19 PM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > Horsefeathers! The reason they did all the stupid stuff they (IBM) did was > > > because INTEL told them to, since there was nobody on the PC team smart > enough > > > to design a microcomputer, yet dumb enough to risk doing it in their (IBM's) > > > corporate environment. ISTR that the original cause for the presence of the > > > 8255 was the need for it in the parallel port (see the comments in the > original > > > BIOS listings in the tech ref). > > > > Fishfeathers! I stand by my original post. whether Intel helped create the > > mess or not is immaterial... > > > Nobody, including the dumbest at IBM, was dumb enough to use the high-level, > positive edge-triggered interrupt without pressure from Intel. Apparently Intel > had ONE guy at some time in history who devised that ridiculously stupid > approach to interrupt processing and built it into their "scheme" which was > followed by a series of devices that lived on that scheme. Once they had it, > they were stuck with it. > > > > > The 8250 was a fine chip for the application, though I wonder why they used > the > > > DIP version. > > > > What other 8250 option than 40 pin DIP was available in 1981? > > > PLCC-44 The 8250 was not available in PLCC at that time... I have WD and National data books of that vintage and no PLCC44 8250s... > > > > There were better choices available, but they didn't want to lose > > > the serial port board business by putting two of them on the same card, and > by > > > that time serial I/O chips tended to have between 2 and 8 ports on them. > > > > Nonsense, What 8 port chips were available in 1981? Were there even any > > 2 port chips for the Intel bus? > > > dual: Signetics 2681/68681, Z80 DART would have worked fine too, with the > exception that the Intel bus didn't work with the "mode-2" interrupt, which you > weren't require to use; octal: TCM78808 which looked pretty much like 8 2661's. > I didn't like the package. Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take your word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts on the > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift register > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 14 14:17:46 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <003b01c184dd$61c4a280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't know what "WORST" means in this context, but I never had a bit of trouble with the 8250, having used it in a number of mass-produced applications. A lot depends on your expectations and on how well you've read the datasheet. If you built the hardware to work with the device you've designed in, following the spec's, they all worked pretty well. The old UARTs were, far and away, IMHO, the easiest and most forgiving, though. They required the most external logic, though, and once the more intgrated chips, e.g. the 6850 with its integrated handshaking and interrupt logic, and the 8250, with its integrated that logic plus the internal baud rate generator, came down somewhat in price, the more highly integrated parts became more popular. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:42 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > the 8250. > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > g. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 12:54:53 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <003b01c184dd$61c4a280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1A4AFD.C9A94838@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > The old UARTs were, far and away, IMHO, the easiest and most forgiving, though. > They required the most external logic, though, and once the more intgrated > chips, e.g. the 6850 with its integrated handshaking and interrupt logic, and > the 8250, with its integrated that logic plus the internal baud rate generator, > came down somewhat in price, the more highly integrated parts became more > popular. I still like the idea simple serial hardware with a fixed baud rate. I never did like chips that need lots software to service them especially during a interrupt. I guess I got spoiled with the PDP-8. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 14 15:28:54 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <002501c184e6$5b5f47c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Richard Erlacher > >The 8250 was a fine chip for the application, though I wonder why they used the >DIP version. There were better choices available, but they didn't want to lose In 1981 there was only the DIP version as surface mount was not a widespread technology yet. >the serial port board business by putting two of them on the same card, and by >that time serial I/O chips tended to have between 2 and 8 ports on them. In 1981 they did exist, those with more than two ports didn't have second source and they werent cheap. The 8274 ( the 8088 bus version of the Zilog SIO) was about 4 times the cost of the 8250(in the fall of 1981) though it was a far better part and intel would have loved the business. What's funny is my Leading Edge Model D PC clone used 8251 and put all the video, floppy, printer and COM1 on the mother board. In my book the clones often {but, not always} improved a dumb design. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 14 16:50:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <002501c184e6$5b5f47c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <004c01c184f1$c29f7760$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I went with PLCC-44 in a couple of devices back in '81-82. The first ones I used were the first application in which I put parts on both sides of the board. The PLCC-68 was even more common, though many mfg's felt more comfortable with the equivalent PGA. Most folks didn't like the relatively hot parts in a plastic package. The 68-pin package was more common. PLCC wasn't a "surface mount" device back in those days, being viewed as a plastic version of PGA package. Lots of guys didn't like the gull-wing parts, so they used the J-lead part in a socket. In most cases, the pinout of the PLCC + socket was the same as the equivalent PGA, if there was one. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 2:28 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >The 8250 was a fine chip for the application, though I wonder why they used > the > >DIP version. There were better choices available, but they didn't want to > lose > > > In 1981 there was only the DIP version as surface mount was not a widespread > technology yet. > > >the serial port board business by putting two of them on the same card, and > by > >that time serial I/O chips tended to have between 2 and 8 ports on them. > > > In 1981 they did exist, those with more than two ports didn't have second > source and they werent cheap. The 8274 ( the 8088 bus version of the > Zilog SIO) was about 4 times the cost of the 8250(in the fall of 1981) > though it was a far better part and intel would have loved the business. > > What's funny is my Leading Edge Model D PC clone used 8251 and put all > the video, floppy, printer and COM1 on the mother board. In my book the > clones often {but, not always} improved a dumb design. > > Allison > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 11:39:42 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > When OT threads die and then get resurrected under even > wilder topics, its just not worth it. Ok, we've had threads similar to this one before, but maybe not quite... What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? What should not be counted: Systems that never went beyond prototype Systems that they made only one of Systems that were custom-designed for a single customer and were only in limited production Systems that were not "general purpose" computers Also not intended as the thrust of the topic: Systems you most of all want Rather, the systems I'me talking about would have been commercially produced, were general-purpose systems, made in quantity of say at least a baker's dozen. These systems might be generally available, and might go for a price you can afford, but you just can't *find* them where you're at. Around here for me, it would be PDP-8's and Lisa's. ??? -dq From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 12:30:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? Besides intact big iron from the 60s and earlier (i.e. CDC 6600, Univacs, etc.)? In my experience: APF Imagination Machine The only one I know of that I should have gotten slipped through my hands in a bulk sale a couple years back. Sales numbers would be interesting to know. This started out as a video game machine like the Atari 2600 but could be expanded into a full-blown computer so you could make your own video games. I have the disk drive for one (bait for the machine). Lisa (the original with the Twiggy drives) Bonus points for an original (i.e. un-reverted) unit. Most Lisa's were upgraded to use the single Sony 3.5" drive when the Twiggy's proved to be unreliable. Most (%?) users opted for the (as far as I know) free upgrade, which replaced the front panel and the drive unit. The spare parts were to be shipped back to Apple. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 14 13:14:52 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Also not intended as the thrust of the topic: > Systems you most of all want Well, you really can't get away from writing about systems you want, since you couldn't claim they're hard to find unless you've been looking. ;) That said, here I go... > These systems might be generally available, and might > go for a price you can afford, but you just can't *find* > them where you're at. > Around here for me, it would be PDP-8's and Lisa's. S-100 based CP/M machines seem to be very rare where I am. MVME-bus machines of any type have been difficult for me to locate. Acorn Archimedes systems are difficult, too, I assume because they were never really popular in the US. NeXT hardware of any type has been difficult for me to locate as well, especially recently. It seems that everybody would like to have it and there's not enough surplus left. Amiga systems are generally in the same boat as NeXT. Once in a while you find somebody who'll actually part with an Amiga, but it's rare. Most people still use them. I've never met a scrap AS/400 in person, though some of them show up on eBay once in a while, so I don't know if this will count. I've been looking for a TRS-80 Color Computer 3 setup for a very long time and haven't found one yet. I assume those are mostly just setting in peoples' closets and will appear in scrapyards and yard-sales eventually. Do peripherals count too? If so, try finding a 9-track drive that doesn't take up as much room as your fridge. Any EDSI hardware and controllers have been very elusive to me as well. Machines with front-panels are very rare. I have one, a Heath H-8. (You can select an address using the keypad and type programs in octal -- talk about an intuitive interface! I think we should replace the GUI with this... :) It's the only one I've ever met, honestly. (Speaking of which, I must eventually get it to do something interesting. :) I remember from old "Hot CoCo" magazines a few systems, namely the Dragon, and the "Micro Color Computer," which I have not seen since. It is difficult for me to find people who've even heard of, much less seen, much less know where I can get, a Symbolics system. The same applies to any of the Cray systems -- even when they were made in relatively high-volume. The SGI m68k machines are also relatively "unknown." (The Iris 2000/3000s) I'm sure there are more. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dittman at dittman.net Fri Dec 14 13:37:06 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 14, 2001 01:14:52 PM Message-ID: <200112141937.fBEJb6D04413@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Do peripherals count too? If so, try finding a 9-track drive that doesn't > take up as much room as your fridge. Any EDSI hardware and controllers have > been very elusive to me as well. Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is a limit on how small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate two large reels. In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive for $75. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 14 14:58:46 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011214205929.KEAF20364.femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I think I posted this a few months ago, but I know were there are at least two B&W Next Pizza boxes and two color cubes. My brother has them in storage in SLC, Utah. For the cost of and help with shipping this gear to him in upstate Michigan, you could get a really nice system... Regards, jeff In <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, on 12/14/01 at 01:14 PM, Christopher Smith said: >NeXT hardware of any type has been difficult for me to locate as well, >especially recently. It seems that everybody would like to have it and >there's not enough surplus left. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 15:39:02 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: You'd have trouble finding mainframes, because I snap up every one I can find. Peace... Sridhar From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 14 14:46:25 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011214205124.JLRK2493.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I have allways wanted a full-blown COCO 3 with a hard disk etc. People just don't let go of them. Allways wanted an SGI INDIGO. Allways wanted an Atari 1450xld and: an Atari 815 disk drive A trak disk drive a Corvus hard disk system (atari, I used to have one for Xerox 820-2) A Corvus Multiplexor One of those neat British Sinclair boxes fully loaded. Any Soviet microcomputer. I gather they made Apple and Atari clones of a sort. An Apollo guidence computer (BTW, I know where you can get the computer from a Nike missile..) An ATARI FALCON 030 - or C-Labs Falcon. An AMIGA 4000. Regards, Jeff In <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>, on 12/14/01 at 12:39 PM, Douglas Quebbeman said: > Systems that never went beyond prototype > Systems that they made only one of > Systems that were custom-designed for a single > customer and were only in limited production > Systems that were not "general purpose" computers >Also not intended as the thrust of the topic: > Systems you most of all want >Rather, the systems I'me talking about would have been >commercially produced, were general-purpose systems, >made in quantity of say at least a baker's dozen. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 14 15:31:42 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011214205124.JLRK2493.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: things I would like to find: Working Metaphor system Singer system 10 - very weird processoor (or System 11 - saw the proto of that and had some cards once) Any SDS system PDP8-S (had one once - remember programming the sieve of Eratosthenes to display primes on the console lights also remember that transistors failed with fair regularity but easy to fix with just an Ohmmeter... Peter Wallace From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 17:36:30 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about a Sphere 1? Not sure how many were made, but it certainly wasn't many. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Dec 14 18:01:55 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember the first machine I seriously tried to come up with the money to buy. Anybody else remember the Compucolor? I'm not sure I ever learned the technical details of the machine. Seems like they disappeared from the scene as fast as they came on. Wouldn't mind adding one of those to my inventory but I'm not sure I could afford to ship it from Timbuck2.... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > How about a Sphere 1? Not sure how many were made, but it > certainly wasn't many. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 15:42:23 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <20011214205124.JLRK2493.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > Allways wanted an SGI INDIGO. Uhhh... dude? These are *really* easy to find on eBay. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 16:28:01 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Dec 14, 1 12:39:42 pm" Message-ID: <200112142228.OAA10378@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? I have had a serious drought on Tomy Tutors. Granted, I have two, which is more than my fair share, but that's just tough for the rest of you :-) I'd like a Commodore 900, though strictly speaking that's a prototype. Not too many NeXTs around here. I also can't find many of the 'big' Solbournes (I myself only have an IDT S4100/36, tip of the hat to Mike). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The optimum committee has no members. -- Norman Augustine ------------------ From red at bears.org Fri Dec 14 16:34:32 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <200112142228.OAA10378@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? You know, I always wanted to find (or at least play with) a Cogent STM, or a Linn Rekursiv. ok r. From oliv555 at arrl.net Fri Dec 14 18:19:43 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3C1A971F.1CF9A5D2@arrl.net> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Rather, the systems I'me talking about would have been > commercially produced, were general-purpose systems, > made in quantity of say at least a baker's dozen. > > These systems might be generally available, and might > go for a price you can afford, but you just can't *find* > them where you're at. > > Around here for me, it would be PDP-8's and Lisa's. > > ??? > > -dq digital Alphabook. Not exactly Rare, just hard-to-find -nick From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Dec 14 12:25:57 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:02 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: >What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? I would have to go for the Lisa, and the Mac TV. I see both on ebay from time to time, but never at a price I personally can afford (but at affordable "collector" prices, usually around $200 for a Mac TV). I think the Mac TV gets special mention, because it is VERY hard to find a properly complete one, one that has the black keyboard and mouse, and even harder to find one with manuals and CDs (although a totally complete, just shy the packing materials one just sold on ebay for a little over $200 IIRC on the price). There were enough made and sold commercially that it should be out of your restrictions (I remember them being available new at the local Computer City when they came out). And I might also include a TAM (20th Anniversaty Mac), but I haven't searched enough to know for sure that they are hard to get (when I do look, if they are there, they usually sell for $1500, which puts them WAY out of my price range, so I don't look very often) >Also not intended as the thrust of the topic: > Systems you most of all want Unfortuantly, all three of my mentions fall into this catagory... but then, if they weren't hard for me to find, I would have one of each already, and then I wouldn't want them... so I guess by default, the hard to find are going to be the ones I most want. Anything outside Mac stuff, I dont pay enough attention to to know if it is hard to find (I can tell you a few things that AREN'T hard to find... 486's, 14" VGAs and inkjet printers out the ass in the local curbside pickups) -c From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 15:08:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Chris wrote: > >What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? > > I would have to go for the Lisa, and the Mac TV. I see both on ebay from > time to time, but never at a price I personally can afford (but at > affordable "collector" prices, usually around $200 for a Mac TV). Just because you cannot afford them does not mean they are hard to find. The fact that you do see them on eBay from time to time actually means that they are more common than you think. Lisa's are not at all "rare", despite what the geographically challenged claim. However, it depends on what model of Lisa we are talking about. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 17:42:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Just because you cannot afford them does not mean they are hard to find. >The fact that you do see them on eBay from time to time actually means >that they are more common than you think. Lisa's are not at all "rare", >despite what the geographically challenged claim. However, it depends on >what model of Lisa we are talking about. Actually I see the flurry of Lisa's, Altair's and a few other machine apearing on eBay to be caused by the promise of high prices more than availability. The promise of a large return for selling it is sure to bring stuff out of the woodwork, regardless of how many there actually are. Just look at how many one-off's/prototypes appear. Another one I'd add to the list of not being easily found though, as they don't even appear on eBay that often, is the SOL-20. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Dec 14 16:53:12 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: >Just because you cannot afford them does not mean they are hard to find. >The fact that you do see them on eBay from time to time actually means >that they are more common than you think. Lisa's are not at all "rare", >despite what the geographically challenged claim. However, it depends on >what model of Lisa we are talking about. Around here (NJ) Lisa's (any model) and Mac TV's are rare, at least as far as what I have found... and that goes beyond eBay (ebay isn't regional, local used shops, garage sales, junk yards, newspaper ads, flea markets... those are all regional). It is quite possible these things are readily available else where in the world, but here, they are not. If there is some magic land where these things go apleanty, PLEASE fill me in, as I would love to get them for shipping cost or just above... but I asked about that once before on this list when I was told shortages of lisa's were a regional thing... and no one told me where to get one, or offered me one... so I tend to think, there is no land of pleanty outside of collector mythos. As for affording them, that was just commented on because IIRC one of the criteria was that they should be collector affordable. I myself can't afford squat, but the prices I have seen them go for, when I have seen them (which happens to ONLY be online stores/auctions... ebay included) they are affordable for an average collector... I am just a very destitute collector so I have always had to pass on them. I am very sure that they are much more readily available than many other systems (as evidenced by the fact that they show up at all on ebay), but like I ended my first email with... outside of mac stuff, I really don't pay attention, so I can't say what is rare. That basically means, my rare statements were perspective of Mac's, and NOT of the entire computer field. -c From Socialmisfit10 at aol.com Fri Dec 14 14:15:38 2001 From: Socialmisfit10 at aol.com (Socialmisfit10@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: %20Hallelujah! Message-ID: <18c.770b62.294bb7ea@aol.com> ummm my name is Meridith Zammetti and i noticed that your last name was Zammetti so i thought i would say HI and hope that u would say HI back...maybe........just maybe.......hehe... From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 14 14:26:33 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFBD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Right. I know they exist... just can't find them. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Dittman [mailto:dittman@dittman.net] > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:37 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just > say > > > > Do peripherals count too? If so, try finding a 9-track > drive that doesn't > > take up as much room as your fridge. Any EDSI hardware and > controllers have > > been very elusive to me as well. > > Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is > a limit on how > small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate > two large reels. > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI > drive for $75. From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Dec 14 15:01:54 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFBD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011214210331.JUBX2493.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> In <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFBD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>, on 12/14/01 at 02:26 PM, Christopher Smith said: My Data General 6025? 9 track drive is intended to rack-mount. In fact, I pulled it from an MV9000 machine. It is easily man-portable but doesn't have an enclosure per se. It sits neatly inside a cheap pressboard printer stand I have with plenty of room for tapes etc. Of course this particular unit is limited to 7" tapes. Regards, Jeff >> > Do peripherals count too? If so, try finding a 9-track >> drive that doesn't >> > take up as much room as your fridge. Any EDSI hardware and >> controllers have >> > been very elusive to me as well. >> >> Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is >> a limit on how >> small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate >> two large reels. >> >> In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI >> drive for $75. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 14 14:29:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question) Message-ID: <001601c184dd$ff152820$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Ok, IMSAI Imp48... supposedly only 300 sold. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:07 PM Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question) >> When OT threads die and then get resurrected under even >> wilder topics, its just not worth it. > >Ok, we've had threads similar to this one before, but >maybe not quite... > >What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? What should not >be counted: > > Systems that never went beyond prototype > Systems that they made only one of > Systems that were custom-designed for a single > customer and were only in limited production > Systems that were not "general purpose" computers > >Also not intended as the thrust of the topic: > > Systems you most of all want > >Rather, the systems I'me talking about would have been >commercially produced, were general-purpose systems, >made in quantity of say at least a baker's dozen. > >These systems might be generally available, and might >go for a price you can afford, but you just can't *find* >them where you're at. > >Around here for me, it would be PDP-8's and Lisa's. > >??? > >-dq From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 15:14:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <001601c184dd$ff152820$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Allison wrote: > Ok, > > IMSAI Imp48... supposedly only 300 sold. Only 200 Apple-1's were ever made, but I've had more people come to me with an Apple-1 than APF Imagination Machines :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 14 18:14:25 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > -> I have a PSU, the input leads (part of the EMI filter > -> I think) are labeled L, G, and N. G is I am sure, the > -> ground. > -> > -> Of N and L (beutral and low?), which goes to thewhite > -> wire, and which goes to the black wire? Function North American International (NA) (ICC) Hot (Line) Black Brown Neutral White Blue Earth (Ground) Green Green w/yellow stripe Sometimes you will find both schemes in use at the same time. Typically you will see this for power switches. Often Black and White are used for the power input, and Brown and Blue are the supply lines for the power supply. Not all manufactures follow this standard, so if in doubt, double check with a volt meter. > -> The A/C cord is a 20amp type with the two blades at > -> 90 degrees to each other as in "| -". > > I don't know why you've got the opposed blades. In the US we use type A (2 > pring in parallel) and B (two parallels with a round ground prong) and many > places in Euro they use the two round pronged C type. Ive seen the opposed > blade type but I think it's 220 for air conditioners, I may halucenating > from all the dust I just got into inside an old PS/2 I'm digging out of > storage. It might alos be made for 400hz power, who knows. A 15A 120v plug will have the 2 blades parallel, while a 20A 120v plug will have one rotated 90 degrees. 240v plugs are similar, but not interchangeable. -Toth From donm at cts.com Fri Dec 14 18:49:44 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Cats around computers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B4B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I had a hard time finding beef tongue or brains in the U.S. These are > > considered a delicacy in many other places. %-) > > In this part of the midwest, pork brains are a bit more > common than beef brains... dad loved 'em, I thought they > were cool to look at, but never tried 'em. > > I hope we don't drift into discussing that strangest > beef organ meat of all... > > ;) > Well, we can always skip that and go directly to `mountain oysters'! - don From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 15:03:09 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: 1GHz PDP-11 (Re: Prints for an 11/70) References: <15384.17114.482998.449273@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15384.19981.676941.488790@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C194F73.24D7BA5C@arrl.net> <3C1A1588.75407B96@idirect.com> <3C1A944F.4C2F5D0D@arrl.net> Message-ID: <3C1A690D.E1B2A@jetnet.ab.ca> no wrote: > > Jerome Fine wrote: > > > > >no wrote: > > > > > Pricey beasts, those bridges. Looked into that a few years ago when > > > my company was thinking of replacing the 11/45's with the Osprey > > > board. Unibus bridges were about $2500 each. > > > -nick > > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > > > The price of the bridges has not been reduced, but the Osprey was a > > relatively expensive solution - much more than the cost of the bridge > > if I remember correctly. Also, limited in CPU power to the hardware > > that is used. A less expensive solution - the difference effectively > > makes the cost of the bridge zero or even negative - is Ersatz-11 > > http://www.dbit.com/ > > Obviously you require the commercial version and you still run on > > a PC, but as the speed of the PC increases (at increased cost of > > course), so does Ersatz-11. Not so with the Osprey hardware. > > And I seem to remember that the cost without the bridge was twice > > the cost of even the first the Ersatz-11 license. > > > > I am not saying that Osprey is a bad solution. When I first saw a > > system that used the J11 chip (so that the speed was about identical > > to an 11/93 - maybe a bit faster since the memory may have been > > integrated more efficiently), I was very impressed. It was probably > > about 5 or 6 years ago - well before the commercial version of > > Ersatz-11 which initially arrived without an adapter capability. > > Later, the Osprey solution started to use their own CPU to replace > > the J11 - had to eventually since DEC cut off supply of the J11 chips. > > But the Osprey is still much slower than Ersatz-11 is able to achieve > > now on a Pentium IV. I think that on the fastest Pentium IV, Ersatz-11 > > is now able to execute PDP-11 instructions more quickly than any > > other emulator and/or hardware. And since the original trial version > > of Ersatz-11 is probably close to 10 years old, maybe I am not > > even off topic. > > > > Does you company still have the PDP-11/45 systems? > > > > Yes, but not for long. They are hooked up to a DC-10 flight simulator > but > part of the Sep 11 aftermath was the downsizing of the airlines and, in > particular, the permanent grounding of our DC-10 fleet. Making this > trainer irrelevant. Its about to be sold. That would make a one of kind computer system -- DC-10 trainer -- for the den only $???,???.95 :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From menadeau at mediaone.net Fri Dec 14 18:51:12 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Another odd-ball/almost classic computer...8 yr old... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <01ed01c18502$9ac64b40$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> I remember getting a press briefing on the Handbook before its release. Gateway did not manufacture the unit. I think it was made under contract in Taiwan. It was an interesting system that was not on the market for long. I'd grab one if the opportunity presented itself. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 5:10 PM Subject: Another odd-ball/almost classic computer...8 yr old... > Just found this in a box... Has anyone here ever heard of a Gateway > 2000 Handbook computer? It's like a palmtop/laptop computer, 10"x6"x1.5"... > using a Chips & Tech. 8680 "PC on a chip". It has the 2MB RAM upgrade, to > bring it to a whopping 3MB! > And would you look at that, 40MB HDD... With the null modem cable, > it would make a great ultra-portable terminal... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Dec 14 19:14:19 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <023801c18505$ffef7b60$6b469280@y5f3q8> > Hello, > > This topic was rehashed not too long ago, but rather > than read 6 weeks worth of thread on it, let me star it > again. > > I have a PSU, the input leads (part of the EMI filter > I think) are labeled L, G, and N. G is I am sure, the > ground. Correct. > > Of N and L (beutral and low?), which goes to thewhite > wire, and which goes to the black wire? Black = hot White = neutral The neutral is bonded to ground (at only one place in the service) and the black is generally the A phase of a 120/208v or 120/240v 3 phase system or the A leg of a 120/240v single phase system. I've been thinking about a FAQ to cover this, but it's sooooo localized that I spent more time writing disclaimers that I never got very far into it. Any non-us electricians want to compare notes, and make it sound like we're well traveled? > > The A/C cord is a 20amp type with the two blades at > 90 degrees to each other as in "| -". I can't recall which is the hot and neutral offhand, but you should be able to ring it out with a meter. Be careful. Ask questions first, as opposed to never! > > Thanks, > -doug q Bob From pat at purdueriots.com Fri Dec 14 20:23:17 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux In-Reply-To: <023801c18505$ffef7b60$6b469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > > The A/C cord is a 20amp type with the two blades at > > 90 degrees to each other as in "| -". > > I can't recall which is the hot and neutral offhand, but you should be able > to ring it out with a meter. Be careful. Ask questions first, as opposed > to never! The blade that's keeping you from fitting it into a USA 15A 120V outlet should be the neutral. A quick run to your local hardware store and a few $$ later, you too can have a plug that will fit it (120V, 20A). I'd recommend either making yourself an adaptor, or plugging it into a true 20A circuit (most homes still use 15A outlets on 20A circuits, you may have to first get the outlet replaced.) As a last-ditch (unrecommended) attempt, you could replace the plug with a 15A one purchased from that hardware store you went to get the outlet from. I once came across an AT&T System 70 PBX mounted in a tall (74"?) cabinet that used a 50A, 120V outlet. A simple swap with a 15A plug, and it was off running. (Of course it wasnt being ACTIVELY used at the time, just trying to get it to power up). -- Pat From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Dec 14 19:25:26 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux References: Message-ID: <027901c18507$60f32fa0$6b469280@y5f3q8> > On AC devices that I've worked with, N is neutral (white), L is line > (black), G is ground (green). > I don't know why you've got the opposed blades. In the US we use type A (2 > pring in parallel) and B (two parallels with a round ground prong) and many > places in Euro they use the two round pronged C type. Ive seen the opposed > blade type but I think it's 220 for air conditioners, I may halucenating > from all the dust I just got into inside an old PS/2 I'm digging out of > storage. It might alos be made for 400hz power, who knows. Two parallel blades is 120V 15A. One perpendicular to the other is (usually!) 120V 20A, but it could be a 250V plug, too. The 120V 20A plug can be adjusted to fit a 15A recep by the judicious(sp?) application of a pair of pliers... No, I've never done such a dangerous thing! -_^ Just remember, too close to the body of the plug and it'll shear off, too far out and it won't insert fully into the plug. Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 19:36:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Dec 14, 1 04:12:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 502 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/0fd75790/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 19:48:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Dec 14, 1 04:37:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 513 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/fe8a3a37/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Dec 14 21:00:10 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > The blade that's keeping you from fitting it into a USA 15A > 120V outlet > should be the neutral. Sorry I wasn't clear, my custom-made A/C line has a box with two duplex outlets that match the line cord. And thanks to everyone who chimed in, it turns out my cord is wired correctly to the PSU. And the line tester from Radio Shack says the line is correct and not reversed and properly grounded. Gott be something else... -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 19:27:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: On Sequent Symmetry S81 and PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFB4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 14, 1 11:08:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 633 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/5db4d791/attachment.ksh From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 14 21:08:41 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! Message-ID: <200112150308.WAA31373@wordstock.com> People on here have talked about people on eBay taking a perfectly good working machine and selling it off piece by piece but this takes the capacitor screwdriver, soldering iron and sucker.... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 This person? is selling 40 little plastic thingies that go under a key on the Commodore 128's keyboard along with a spring!!! Bryan Excuse while I go bang my head against a wall... Did you know if you do that for an hour you burn 150 calories? From donm at cts.com Fri Dec 14 22:56:23 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! In-Reply-To: <200112150308.WAA31373@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > People on here have talked about people on eBay taking a perfectly good > working machine and selling it off piece by piece but this takes the > capacitor screwdriver, soldering iron and sucker.... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 > > This person? is selling 40 little plastic thingies that go under a key on > the Commodore 128's keyboard along with a spring!!! > > Bryan > > Excuse while I go bang my head against a wall... Did you know if you do that > for an hour you burn 150 calories? That seems low. IIRC, a person sitting and reading - nonexertive - puts out about 140 BTU/hr. Admittedly, this is from a HVAC class more years ago than I like to remember. - don From jss at subatomix.com Fri Dec 14 22:59:47 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! In-Reply-To: <200112150308.WAA31373@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20011214225915.J79440-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 Oooh, I want a button buttons key keys! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 17:42:29 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! References: <20011214225915.J79440-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3C1A8E65.4A9E6786@jetnet.ab.ca> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 > > Oooh, I want a button buttons key keys! > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com Goes to the back room and smashes a 286 with sledge hammer. *** breaking sounds *** That should get me several several grand on ebay! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Fri Dec 14 23:11:17 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! In-Reply-To: <20011214225915.J79440-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20011214225915.J79440-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <1008393082.4262.0.camel@eleusis> That has to be one of the silliest auctions I think I've ever seen. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Fri, 2001-12-14 at 23:59, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 > > Oooh, I want a button buttons key keys! > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Dec 14 22:47:15 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I have that itching to start up my new PDP8/A even without disks attached. Have a programmers console, so that's enough to enter a few programs. It's intriguing to see a machine with a simple input method and convenient IO programming abstractions, it is possible to bootstrap this system entirely from scratch with only a manual. But first I need to give this thing a good cleaning. A friend has assured me that there's nothing better than the dishwasher, with the exception of big capacitors and, what about magnetic core memory? So, how should I clean the RAM cards? How the DC power supply units? If I put the other stuff in the dishwasher, I know there should be no detergent and no heat dry. But what about the rinsing aid, do I have to pump this out of the reservoir? I heard of another method using hand-washing first, then drying and finally a bath in Isopropanol. Is that what I should do with the core memory cards? Finally, finally, I noticed that the cards are all slightly bent from being kept in a horizontal position. They are sagging a little, like a hammock. Would that be a cause of concern in the long run? Should I mount the chassis in an upright position in the future? any other things I should know? -Gunther PS: I am probably going to make one "portable" PDP-8, where the console is mounted on the chassis and the rest of the opening covered plus a handle on the top. That would be neat for bringing into the classroom to teach fundamentals of computer programming, wouldn't it? -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 14 23:30:38 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Speaking of PDP's and old iron, does the PDP zealot crowd know of this site with manuals http://www.rahul.net/jfcl/Computers/handbooks.htm -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow -> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:47 PM -> To: PDP8-Lovers; classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? -> -> -> Hi, -> -> I have that itching to start up my new PDP8/A even without -> disks attached. Have a programmers console, so that's enough -> to enter a few programs. It's intriguing to see a machine -> with a simple input method and convenient IO programming -> abstractions, it is possible to bootstrap this system entirely -> from scratch with only a manual. -> -> But first I need to give this thing a good cleaning. A friend -> has assured me that there's nothing better than the dishwasher, -> with the exception of big capacitors and, what about magnetic -> core memory? So, how should I clean the RAM cards? How the -> DC power supply units? -> -> If I put the other stuff in the dishwasher, I know there should -> be no detergent and no heat dry. But what about the rinsing -> aid, do I have to pump this out of the reservoir? -> -> I heard of another method using hand-washing first, then drying -> and finally a bath in Isopropanol. Is that what I should do -> with the core memory cards? -> -> Finally, finally, I noticed that the cards are all slightly -> bent from being kept in a horizontal position. They are sagging -> a little, like a hammock. Would that be a cause of concern -> in the long run? Should I mount the chassis in an upright -> position in the future? -> -> any other things I should know? -> -Gunther -> -> PS: I am probably going to make one "portable" PDP-8, where -> the console is mounted on the chassis and the rest of the -> opening covered plus a handle on the top. That would be neat -> for bringing into the classroom to teach fundamentals of -> computer programming, wouldn't it? -> -> -> -- -> Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org -> Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care -> Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine -> tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org -> -> -> From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 14 23:10:06 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <20011215051251.JZSK12705.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Christopher Smith > (To whit: I worked at one point with a guy who was convinced that every > operating system in the world was derived in some manner from MS-DOS. Yes, > that includes the Macintosh operating system too. "CP/M? What's that? > Unix is based on MS-DOS, right?" The guy was a "programmer.") (gag, puke) Well, most of us (except for Tony) have areas that we are not expert in, or even familiar with. The problem with the fellow you refer to is 1 -- The person who hired him. That person should be disposed of in the most painful way possible. 2 -- The institution which granted him a degree (if any). I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape their way into a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really write code *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree and don't think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. But . . . Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . Glen 00 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 17:57:07 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <20011215051251.JZSK12705.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3C1A91D3.911C5012@jetnet.ab.ca> Glen Goodwin wrote: > > I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape their way into > a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really write code > *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree and don't > think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. > > But . . . > > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . Ok, what does it take to really write code and solve programs? (Unlicensed programer/coder here ). Writing code is easy... writing the doc's that is another story. I tend to favor the hardware side, but they don't make TTL machines like the PDP-8E or transistor ones like the PDP8/S. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From fernande at internet1.net Fri Dec 14 23:11:18 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say References: <200112141937.fBEJb6D04413@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3C1ADB76.53864F82@internet1.net> I gave a Cipher tape drive away earlier this year. I ended up packing it up for shipment across country. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Do peripherals count too? If so, try finding a 9-track drive that doesn't > > take up as much room as your fridge. Any EDSI hardware and controllers have > > been very elusive to me as well. > > Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is a limit on how > small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate two large reels. > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive for $75. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 23:35:44 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: RE: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say (Christopher Smith) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFBD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <15386.57648.594155.584286@phaduka.neurotica.com> They generally go for fairly big bucks. I sold two of them (HP 88780B drives) about a year ago for around $350/ea. They're all over...just not for free. -Dave On December 14, Christopher Smith wrote: > Right. I know they exist... just can't find them. :) > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eric Dittman [mailto:dittman@dittman.net] > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:37 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just > > say > > > > > > > Do peripherals count too? If so, try finding a 9-track > > drive that doesn't > > > take up as much room as your fridge. Any EDSI hardware and > > controllers have > > > been very elusive to me as well. > > > > Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is > > a limit on how > > small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate > > two large reels. > > > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI > > drive for $75. > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From dittman at dittman.net Fri Dec 14 19:40:26 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no to In-Reply-To: <3C1A971F.1CF9A5D2@arrl.net> from "no" at Dec 14, 2001 06:19:43 PM Message-ID: <200112150140.fBF1eQv05322@narnia.int.dittman.net> > digital Alphabook. Not exactly Rare, just hard-to-find I'd love an Alphabook, but when they are available, they are expensive. Once the VMS IPF port is finished and IPF laptops are available I'll finally have a native VMS laptop. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 19:38:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Dec 14, 1 04:16:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 756 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/6c5f3f5b/attachment.ksh From mrc at CAC.Washington.EDU Sat Dec 15 00:25:35 2001 From: mrc at CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > But first I need to give this thing a good cleaning. Why? > A friend > has assured me that there's nothing better than the dishwasher, > with the exception of big capacitors and, what about magnetic > core memory? I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. It may be alright to (gently!) vaccuum away dust and deteriorated foam rubber, although a feather duster may be more appropriate. I would not risk anything else, and certainly not insert anything (including water or alcohol) under the plexiglass shield protecting the core. A damp cloth with perhaps a bit of soap to the exterior surfaces of the case is probably all you really need, but be sure not to let any liquid seep into the inerior. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 15 01:09:41 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Mark Crispin wrote: > I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic > equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. Are you kidding? Have you been to the manufacturing line of a large systems manufacturer (I've been to several)? They wash boards down with water over and over again in the manufacturing process? You can't hurt boards with water, as long as you dry them off before you turn them back on again, and you don't use soap. All my MicroVAXen have been through the dishwasher at least once. Peace... Sridhar From msell at ontimesupport.com Sat Dec 15 01:32:50 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Guys, This argument always comes up every few months on the video game collecting newsgroups that I'm a member of. Here we go.... How do you think the boards were cleaned by the manufacturer? Boardwashers!!!!! (big versions of dishwashers - usually with conveyors for constant operation) I've been employed by two different electronic test equipment manufacturers, and have consulted a bunch more regarding quality control and calibration of electronic test equipment. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM USES WATER TO CLEAN THE BOARDS. No shit. Depending on the type of equipment that is being produced, some may use distilled water, others filtered water, some use "deionized" water. But it's still water. Hot water. I clean all of my computers, upright video games, and all of the boards from my two 11/780's and one PDP-11/34A in the dishwasher. No damage yet, after several YEARS of doing this. I've put high-voltage power supplies, low voltage power supplies, floppy disk drives, CPU boards and everything else in the wash. What doesn't fit in the dishwasher gets blasted with 409 and hot water in the tub. Here's the secrets to doing this right: 1) Do not use any detergents. NONE. 2) Turn off the plate warming and drying cycles. The heating elements in the washer can distort or damage plastics. 3) Remove soon after cycle is complete. Do not let items sit overnight. Shake off water. 4) Stand up or hang to dry. 5) Let items dry inside the house for several days. I usually don't touch washed items for at least 3-4 days. 6) Don't plug the item in to power of any form until step #5 has completed. For delicate items, I use water from the sink at a low flow rate, and spray a mixture of 409 and water onto the item and allow it to soak for a few minutes before rinsing. I may use a soft paintbrush to clean stubborn dirt if necessary. Rinse and repeat. I know that a good percentage of you are skeptical. Every one of my games in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the dishwasher. Several others had every single board through the wash. All of them work, and did so before going into the dishwasher and immediately after drying. Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took an entire 11/780 out into my driveway and I powerwashed the chassis AND backplane! Don't take my word for it; take a board that you know is operational, of little value to you, test it out, and run it through the dishwasher using the steps outlined above. After a few days of drying, test it out. It'll work. And - I severely doubt that you get it any cleaner using any other method. Of course, don't wash the boards with your regular load of plates and pots..... : ) - Matt At 10:25 PM 12/14/2001 -0800, you wrote: >On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > But first I need to give this thing a good cleaning. > >Why? > > > A friend > > has assured me that there's nothing better than the dishwasher, > > with the exception of big capacitors and, what about magnetic > > core memory? > >I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic >equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. > >It may be alright to (gently!) vaccuum away dust and deteriorated foam >rubber, although a feather duster may be more appropriate. I would not >risk anything else, and certainly not insert anything (including water or >alcohol) under the plexiglass shield protecting the core. > >A damp cloth with perhaps a bit of soap to the exterior surfaces of the >case is probably all you really need, but be sure not to let any liquid >seep into the inerior. > >-- Mark -- > >http://staff.washington.edu/mrc >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 15 01:59:25 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3C1B02DD.18CC11B6@internet1.net> I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but what about core memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite delicate.... any special handling needed? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Matthew Sell wrote: > > Guys, > > This argument always comes up every few months on the video game collecting > newsgroups that I'm a member of. > > Here we go.... From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Dec 15 00:42:01 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <3C1A91D3.911C5012@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben Franchuk at "Dec 14, 2001 04:57:07 pm" Message-ID: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape their way into > > a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really write code > > *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree and don't > > think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. > > > > But . . . > > > > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . > > Ok, what does it take to really write code and solve programs? > (Unlicensed programer/coder here ). Writing code is easy... writing the > doc's that is another story. I tend to favor the hardware side, but they > don't make TTL machines like the PDP-8E or transistor ones like the > PDP8/S. I'm not sure if geeks should be licensed, but there are certainly instances when their output should be monitored closely. Geeks who program voting machines, for example. (I think that voting machine software should be open source and available from the voting machine. Every other civilized country gets by with pencil and paper and big bunches of people doing the counting. I need to trust that an embedded systems programmer doesn't have strong enough political beliefs that they would try to rig an election. It gets even worse when you need to believe that people (read Microsoft) coding the OS of the damn things don't have any interest in the outcome of elections.) I'd also include Geeks who program any machine that could accidentally kill someone (for example airplanes) and Geeks who code for billion dollar space hardware. Eric From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Dec 15 01:22:17 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <20011215051251.JZSK12705.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3C1AFA29.25567F8E@ccp.com> Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > From: Christopher Smith > > > (To whit: I worked at one point with a guy who was convinced that every > > operating system in the world was derived in some manner from MS-DOS. > Yes, > > that includes the Macintosh operating system too. "CP/M? What's that? > > Unix is based on MS-DOS, right?" The guy was a "programmer.") > > (gag, puke) > > Well, most of us (except for Tony) have areas that we are not expert in, or > even familiar with. The problem with the fellow you refer to is > > 1 -- The person who hired him. That person should be disposed of in the > most painful way possible. > > 2 -- The institution which granted him a degree (if any). > > I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape their way into > a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really write code > *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree and don't > think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. > > But . . . > > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . > > Glen > 00 I've een the same thing happen in broadcasting. Once upon a time when the FCC had a backbone, the First Class Radiotelephone licence was required for most engineering jobs. But by 1980 political pressure from the NAB eliminated this requirement and now anyone with a good selling job can do just about anything. . . . and usually they can't. Especially around RF, high voltage and vacuum tubes . . . When I got mine I was amazed how many people thought it was really difficult, which it wasn't, if you understood the basics. The aformentioned 'programmers' sure as h**l don't know the basics as evidenced by their statements. And I bet none of them have ever hand coded a computer to do anything productive. They rely on a good software package to help them develop C code ad nauseum. Thanks, Bill. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO From Golemancd at aol.com Sat Dec 15 01:39:14 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: irc Message-ID: anyone know the irc channel by any chance jooe From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Dec 14 16:04:48 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question In-Reply-To: <200112141747.JAA10478@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <20011214144447.61787.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> from steve at "Dec 14, 1 06:44:47 am" Message-ID: <20011215030014.XQQR26017.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: Cameron Kaiser > Subject: Re: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:47:35 -0800 (PST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > I think that economics has a lot to do with why > > > "hillbilly's" eat things > > > that > > > I would never dream of. > > > > Are you sure? Contents of hot dogs are > > > > "Carcasses from old or thin cattle and swine; cheeks, > > jowls, hearts, tongues, lips, eyelids, gums, > > intestines, ears, nostrils, tails, snouts, tendons, > > windpipes, livers, kidneys, salt, fat, bones, blood, > > preservatives." > > On that note, watch the racoons in "The Great Outdoors." Dunno, But that contents of that regular hotdog (not the real thing that is curved), no wonder they taste bland and too soft. How boring. Cheers, Wizard > > -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 18:12:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <3C18044C.D7809BF3@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Dec 12, 1 06:28:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 855 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/44bb7c61/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 21:49:11 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Firstly, I'll accept that X needs a graphics display, but surely you can > run the applications on a linux box and the X-server on another machine > (including a dedicated X-terminal). So the linux box only needs a > graphics card if it's running the X-server What about the print-only X-server? I've used it with a cardreader and lineprinter. It's painful, but it works. I suspect it would be much less painful on a CRT terminal. > Secondly, running linux does not imply running X. Plenty of programs will > run on a text-only command-line type of system. You'd need a video card > for that, although not a graphics-capable one. I believe Linux will now run with a serial terminal. NetBSD certainly does. > Thirdly, is there any good reason why you can't use a serial terminal > linked to an RS232 port any more? In which case the PC wouldn't need a > video card at all, unless it needs one to pass the POST (and you don't > know how to patch the bios to get round it). This should work just fine. You just have to compile the kernel with the necessary options. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 23:04:57 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I believe Linux will now run with a serial terminal. NetBSD certainly > does. AFAIK, Linux has always run with just a serial terminal. It's only lately (~18 months, I think) that you could really install it that way > > Thirdly, is there any good reason why you can't use a serial terminal > > linked to an RS232 port any more? In which case the PC wouldn't need a > > video card at all, unless it needs one to pass the POST (and you don't > > know how to patch the bios to get round it). > > This should work just fine. You just have to compile the kernel with the > necessary options. All the kernel needs is serial and serial console support, which is the default in all the distros I play in. You just have to know the boottime parameters. But, again, a lot of desktop BIOS's won't POST at all without a graphics card installed. And most folk who know how to patch a BIOS aren't running PCs. Interesting fact: RedHat now accomodates a serial-console install, but even done like that, the installed system boots looking for a VGA console. You have to hand-edit the boot configuration after the install, before you reboot. Doc From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 14 22:30:02 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214222834.032b0cc0@127.0.0.1> Serial terminals have worked with Linux for a few years now. Heck, in the 1.x days I was running serial terminals under Linux, and even using modems and VT100 emulators on PC's on the other end..... - Matt >I believe Linux will now run with a serial terminal. NetBSD certainly >does. > > > Thirdly, is there any good reason why you can't use a serial terminal > > linked to an RS232 port any more? In which case the PC wouldn't need a > > video card at all, unless it needs one to pass the POST (and you don't > > know how to patch the bios to get round it). > >This should work just fine. You just have to compile the kernel with the >necessary options. > >Peace... Sridhar Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 18:18:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:03 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Dec 13, 1 06:46:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 475 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/6e164244/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 23:55:26 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 15, 1 00:18:37 am" Message-ID: <200112150555.VAA09472@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > (b) using my HP95LX and HP100LX palmtops as serial terminals rather more > than I use them for anything else. I love my twin 95LXes, but their battery monitors went bananas and now they constantly claim the batteries are almost dead, even when I just replaced them. Both of my 95s have this problem and it's really very annoying. Done much repair work on these to tell me where to start looking? :-) Because of this my Palm m505 has largely supplanted them. Kind of sad but I really like the colour Palms. I miss having a keyboard though. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Laughter is the closest distance between two people. -- Victor Borge ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 18:14:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Dec 13, 1 03:57:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 259 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/66ca2ceb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 18:45:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Dec 13, 1 08:10:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 359 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/f528954e/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 20:51:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > The IBM joystick is in fact a rebadged Tandy joystick. > > I thought this thread started by somebody pointing out that there are > electical differences between the PC and CoCo joystick interfaces and > thus the pot wiring in the joystick (and for that matter the pot > resistance) is different. > > So the IBM joystick can't be just a rebadged Tandy one. Ok, to be more accurate: it LOOKS like a re-badged Tandy joystick ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 14 23:26:16 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > So the IBM joystick can't be just a rebadged Tandy one. > Ok, to be more accurate: it LOOKS like a re-badged Tandy joystick ;) OK, it could be a re-badged Tandy joystick housing and mechanical works with slightly different pots and wiring. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 14 19:06:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <001201c18504$aa8830a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take your > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial I/O chip is designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the same signals to get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any other serial I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique features. It seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to make the 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the ISA bus, as it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. Likewise for the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the trick. That certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to the board I was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few 68-pin PLCC sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. The part in the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. Though there was paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in that application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the JEDEC 'A' package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which i80186's and i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a PLCC socket. A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 on it. > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered into the early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the point at which upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one milestone wasn't met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at Boca was that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented the guys with a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the '188). While it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated into a "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the brains to present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from the fire. Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts on the > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift register > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 14 19:45:44 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <001201c18504$aa8830a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take your > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial I/O chip is > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the same signals to > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any other serial > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique features. It > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to make the > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the ISA bus, as > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. Likewise for > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the trick. That > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode needed) The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. (not that there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to the board I > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few 68-pin PLCC > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. The part in > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. Though there was > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in that > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the JEDEC 'A' > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which i80186's and > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a PLCC socket. > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 on it. Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, just not in 1981... > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered into the > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the point at which > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one milestone wasn't > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at Boca was > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented the guys with > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the '188). While > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated into a > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the brains to > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from the fire. > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts on > the > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift > register > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 14 22:41:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <001501c18522$b4afffe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND (/IOR and /IOW) you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only used in conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, which wouldn't occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure it cares one iota whether IORQ is active. see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take your > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial I/O chip is > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the same signals to > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any other serial > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique features. It > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to make the > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the ISA bus, as > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. Likewise for > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the trick. That > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode needed) > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. (not that > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the DataStrobe or whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a 1-part solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a convenient part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, /IOR, /IOW, etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 anyway, which is what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make whatever signals you needed. > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to the board I > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few 68-pin PLCC > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. The part in > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. Though there was > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in that > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the JEDEC 'A' > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which i80186's and > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a PLCC socket. > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 on it. > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, just > not in 1981... > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered into the > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the point at which > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one milestone wasn't > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at Boca was > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented the guys with > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the '188). While > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated into a > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the brains to > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from the fire. > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts on > > the > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift > > register > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 14 19:42:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Dec 14, 1 11:28:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 604 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/82b9b396/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 14 23:21:17 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > No arguments there! That is an insult to amateurs. Remember that the ark was built by amateurs, but the Titanic was built by professionals. From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Dec 14 19:31:20 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: The Lilith & the Tektronix Magnolia. These I regret not hanging on to. I have never seen another. I still have a Lilith mouse. Paxton From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 14 20:03:09 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Dec 14, 01 06:36:30 pm Message-ID: <200112150203.VAA08568@wordstock.com> Here are a few that while not so hard to find... WHen they are on eBay, the price goes very high: Commodore 128D 1581 and .. the Vectrex Bryan P.S. Why oh why won't some enterprising soul bring out a colour vector gaming console.. There *has* to be some sort of niche market for it! It would be a breath of *fresh* air compared to the game consoles out now. From ernestls at attbi.com Fri Dec 14 21:03:32 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <200112150203.VAA08568@wordstock.com> Message-ID: As a collector of Apple II clones, I find these hard to find. They turn up on ebay but for some reason, the prices go higher than seems reasonable to me but what can you do? Apple clones do turn up on ebay but trying to find a specific clone is very tough. All I can do is pick up whatever clones turn up. I've given up looking for specific computers. E. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 23:58:45 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <200112150203.VAA08568@wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Dec 14, 1 09:03:09 pm" Message-ID: <200112150558.VAA09494@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Here are a few that while not so hard to find... WHen they are on eBay, the > price goes very high: > > Commodore 128D > 1581 Now these I can see some justification for (not merely because I'm a Commodore freak). 128Ds are nice units, especially with the built-in disk drive; and they're very sturdy and well-built. They're also very stylish units, probably the best looking computers of the 8-bit Commodore line. The 1581 is also comparatively uncommon and they unfortunately have a 'neat' factor since few people know Commodore released a 3.5" drive. For this reason alone they get slapped with R@RE and command a high price, which so far has held up. I paid $100 for mine about 4 years ago, which was an absolute steal then. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The superfluous is very necessary. -- Voltaire ----------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 20:44:56 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Chris wrote: > It is quite possible these things are readily available else where in > the world, but here, they are not. If there is some magic land where > these things go apleanty, PLEASE fill me in, as I would love to get > them for shipping cost or just above... but I asked about that once > before on this list when I was told shortages of lisa's were a > regional thing... and no one told me where to get one, or offered me > one... so I tend to think, there is no land of pleanty outside of > collector mythos. Lisa's come up on eBay constantly. At least they used to (I don't care for eBay at all and thus never look). > As for affording them, that was just commented on because IIRC one of > the criteria was that they should be collector affordable. I myself > can't afford squat, but the prices I have seen them go for, when I > have seen them (which happens to ONLY be online stores/auctions... > ebay included) they are affordable for an average collector... I am > just a very destitute collector so I have always had to pass on them. Good. The best finds are cheap or free anyway ;) Revel in thy poorness. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 20:46:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > How about a Sphere 1? Not sure how many were made, but it > certainly wasn't many. Ah yeah. Good pick. That is definitely a rare beast. I've only ever known one person who had one (I forgot his name, he used to be on the list a few years ago). He sold it off to someone else and then got out of collecting computers. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 21:11:31 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >> How about a Sphere 1? Not sure how many were made, but it >> certainly wasn't many. > >Ah yeah. Good pick. That is definitely a rare beast. I've only ever >known one person who had one (I forgot his name, he used to be on the list >a few years ago). He sold it off to someone else and then got out of >collecting computers. There are quite a few mentions of it, most seemingly using just about the same short blurb, but few pictures. I talked with Michael Sphere (I think that's the correct name) a little a few years ago and thought the machine sounded interesting enough. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Dec 14 21:33:58 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If anyone has a GE 635 (from the early 60s) cluttering up their closet, I'll take it. Even though I'm not actively collecting much right now... the 635 was the first computer I ever saw (at age 12, in 1964) and I'd be tempted to sink a lot of money into restoring one, just to be able to hear it and smell that smell, once again. But I'm not holding my breath... ;} Cheers and Best of the Season! John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 16:29:22 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: Message-ID: <3C1A7D42.DCB3F619@jetnet.ab.ca> John Lawson wrote: > > If anyone has a GE 635 (from the early 60s) cluttering up their closet, > I'll take it. Even though I'm not actively collecting much right now... > the 635 was the first computer I ever saw (at age 12, in 1964) and I'd be > tempted to sink a lot of money into restoring one, just to be able to hear > it and smell that smell, once again. > > But I'm not holding my breath... ;} > > Cheers and Best of the Season! > > John I think it is time to package TTY oil and paper chad smell in a easy to use spray can. :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 22:35:36 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3C1A7D42.DCB3F619@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > John Lawson wrote: > > > > If anyone has a GE 635 (from the early 60s) cluttering up their closet, > > I'll take it. Even though I'm not actively collecting much right now... > > the 635 was the first computer I ever saw (at age 12, in 1964) and I'd be > > tempted to sink a lot of money into restoring one, just to be able to hear > > it and smell that smell, once again. > > > > But I'm not holding my breath... ;} > > > > Cheers and Best of the Season! > > > > John > > I think it is time to package TTY oil and paper chad smell in a > easy to use spray can. :) Or in an atomizer... TTY-Oil/Paper-Chad Cologne! Coming soon to a store near you! Peace... Sridhar From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 15 02:15:56 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011215021125.Y79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Or in an atomizer... TTY-Oil/Paper-Chad Cologne! Coming soon to a > store near you! Just think... if a female picked up on that scent and then was attracted to me, there would be *absolutely* *no* *need* for further verification of her suitability. No more of "please state the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus" and such. What a good idea! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 20:47:45 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Another one I'd add to the list of not being easily found > though, as they don't even appear on eBay that often, is the SOL-20. It's definitely a relative thing. The Bay Area (SF/Silicon Valley) is flush with these. Heck, we're flush with everything here (except for money...that all went with the dot.bomb, and good riddance ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 21:08:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Another one I'd add to the list of not being easily found >> though, as they don't even appear on eBay that often, is the SOL-20. > >It's definitely a relative thing. The Bay Area (SF/Silicon Valley) is >flush with these. Heck, we're flush with everything here (except for >money...that all went with the dot.bomb, and good riddance ;) I doubt if you could call Silicon Valley 'typical' as far as hardware availability! With an estimated 12,000 produced, if they are common in your area then I would imagine you would have a large majority of them. It took me nearly 5 years to finally come up with one once I started actively looking. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 20:50:06 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > I remember the first machine I seriously tried to come up with the money > to buy. > > Anybody else remember the Compucolor? > > I'm not sure I ever learned the technical details of the machine. > > Seems like they disappeared from the scene as fast as they came on. > > Wouldn't mind adding one of those to my inventory but I'm not sure I could > afford to ship it from Timbuck2.... Is this the same as the Compucolor? I have an Intecolor 8001 which is a huge beast: integrated CRT but the keyboard was separate (and I am currently missing it). Definitely a rare beast. This is the only one I've ever come across. The only other one I've known anyone to have was the same guy who had that Sphere 1 I referenced previously (he seemed good at finding rarities). He said he found it lying at the side of a road. He thought it was just a TV at first but when he stopped to check it out he found it was a computer. So let this be a lesson to you: check those "TV"s you find in thrift stores and flea markets. Perhaps they are abundant, but we just pass them by out of ignorance? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Dec 14 21:41:19 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <007601c1851a$5d0a8920$4b721fd1@default> In no special order I would like to find a Commodore Amiga CD32, Philips CD-1350, SOL, Sony Data Discman, Vectrex, Mark-8 and the list goes on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:39 AM Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question) > > When OT threads die and then get resurrected under even > > wilder topics, its just not worth it. > > Ok, we've had threads similar to this one before, but > maybe not quite... > > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? What should not > be counted: > > Systems that never went beyond prototype > Systems that they made only one of > Systems that were custom-designed for a single > customer and were only in limited production > Systems that were not "general purpose" computers > > Also not intended as the thrust of the topic: > > Systems you most of all want > > Rather, the systems I'me talking about would have been > commercially produced, were general-purpose systems, > made in quantity of say at least a baker's dozen. > > These systems might be generally available, and might > go for a price you can afford, but you just can't *find* > them where you're at. > > Around here for me, it would be PDP-8's and Lisa's. > > ??? > > -dq > From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 22:42:08 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011215044208.19727.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> I'm interested in extremely early micros, so, my votes: Mike computers from Martin Research (esp. 8008 based) Scelbi-8H Qwint Systems terminals (Z-80 based) Intel 4004, 8008, 4040 development systems I worked for Martin Reasearch (when its name was changed to Qwint) and there were Mike parts all over the place as junk, damnit. OTOH, if I listed the stuff I threw out in the 80's, people on this list would probably cry... I wanted a Scelbi so bad I got the prints and manual; with these, I'm building an 8008 machine that will combine the best parts of the designs of the Scelbi, Mark-8, and Mike computers. I have also resurrected the SCELBAL computer language and have modified it to be ROMMable. I've written a Windows-based 8008 emulator/debugger for it that runs SCELBAL on a virtual TTY on the screen or out a serial port. Interestringly, even a stock, fully loaded Scelbi-8H didn't have enough address space to run SCELBAL! A few people (on this list) are (hopefully) beta testing the emulator/debugger. Combined with a completely restored ADM-3A and some paper tape punches/readers, I hope to have a maintainable, demonstratable, working model of a 70's home computing setup. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 14 17:33:04 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: <20011215044208.19727.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C1A8C2F.CD716B9F@jetnet.ab.ca> Loboyko Steve wrote: > I wanted a Scelbi so bad I got the prints and manual; > with these, I'm building an 8008 machine that will > combine the best parts of the designs of the Scelbi, > Mark-8, and Mike computers. I have also resurrected > the SCELBAL computer language and have modified it to > be ROMMable. I've written a Windows-based 8008 > emulator/debugger for it that runs SCELBAL on a > virtual TTY on the screen or out a serial port. > Interestringly, even a stock, fully loaded Scelbi-8H > didn't have enough address space to run SCELBAL! Ok what is the SCELBAL computer language? Got milk^H^H^H^Hsource? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 01:09:26 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: Message-ID: <01a501c18537$71d0f660$c02fcd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Here are the all-in-one (or nearly all-in-one) units I've never seen, but want: PeCos One SHC-8000 (Teal Industries) Compucorp 625 Mark II Jacquard Systems J500 Videocomputer From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 19:31:36 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at "Dec 14, 1 05:34:32 pm" Message-ID: <200112150131.RAA07390@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? > You know, I always wanted to find (or at least play with) a Cogent STM, or > a Linn Rekursiv. Were Rekursivs ever in production? I thought it was just a prototype, and not even a totally completed one at that. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Conceit causes more conversation than wit. -- LaRouchefoucauld ------------- From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 14 20:41:03 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <200112142228.OAA10378@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? > > I have had a serious drought on Tomy Tutors. Granted, I have two, > which is more than my fair share, but that's just tough for the rest > of you :-) I used to have three, then Hans whined a bunch. Now I just have two ;) What carts do you have for yours? I've got about 6-8, plus the paddles and the joystick and some other nifty doohickey. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 15 00:06:20 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Dec 14, 1 06:41:03 pm" Message-ID: <200112150606.WAA09604@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? > > I have had a serious drought on Tomy Tutors. Granted, I have two, > > which is more than my fair share, but that's just tough for the rest > > of you :-) > I used to have three, then Hans whined a bunch. Now I just have two ;) > What carts do you have for yours? I've got about 6-8, plus the paddles > and the joystick and some other nifty doohickey. Let's see. I have 14 total, seven boxed and seven loose, plus the Data Recorder which I had to repair over the weekend, joystick and joypads. Paddles? I didn't know there were paddles available; are they actually real potentiometer paddles, or do you mean the twin joypad set? And what's the doohickey? The agonisingly "common" domestic cartridge I'm still missing is Torpedo Terror. There's a few other domestic cartridges I haven't found yet, but those are much more uncommon. Of the seven loose, five are some Japanese imports that a fellow Tomy fan found and sold to me at a comparatively inexpensive price. Alas, the rest were spoken for to the tune of several hundred dollars. The imports are kind of fun, and (not so?) surprisingly, most of them are in English. I have one in Japanese, but since American Tutors don't have the characters in ROM, there's just unmapped random garbage where the characters should be. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TRUE HEADLINE: Teacher Strikes Idle Kids ----------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 19:33:36 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: from Chris at "Dec 14, 1 06:01:36 pm" Message-ID: <200112150133.RAA09740@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? >:-) (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I use my C128 because I am an ornery, stubborn, retro grouch. -- Bob Masse - From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 20:05:50 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <200112150133.RAA09740@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? >:-) An RS/6000 ??? > (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) Ooohhh! There's one for sale here, but it's too severely stripped for me. I dunno enough about them to go there. Besides, I have enough AIX boxes.... Doc From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 20:09:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <200112150133.RAA09740@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? >:-) > (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) There's the PPC-based low-end RS/6000's. They're still faster than the Apples. Peace... Sridhar From pat at purdueriots.com Fri Dec 14 20:16:55 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <200112150133.RAA09740@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? >:-) > (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. -- Pat From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 14 21:51:08 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > > > > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > > > Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? >:-) > > (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) > > ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now > zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow as PPC. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 22:56:13 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now > > zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > as PPC. > > Peace... Sridhar I just joined this list, but I was expecting this response.... ;^) Doc From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 15 01:06:07 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > > ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now > > > zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. > > > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > > as PPC. > > > > I just joined this list, but I was expecting this response.... ;^) I felt it appropriate to respond, since I own three S/390's myself. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 15 02:15:47 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I felt it appropriate to respond, since I own three S/390's myself. Yes, I had gathered that, so I knew you would rise up righteous in defense of them. Um, wait. Three. As in (3), two more than (1)? we're not worthy. Peace to you, as well. Doc From pat at purdueriots.com Fri Dec 14 22:56:22 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > > > > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > > > > > > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > > > > > Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? >:-) > > > (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) > > > > ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now > > zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > as PPC. > > Peace... Sridhar > I am pretty sure it runs on some IBM PPC proc... At least that's what I gathered when IBM sent some guy to give what amounted to a sales pitch to our LUG. Could be wrong, but I dont really think so. BTW I mean MODERN eg. zSeries, not old. Anyways, IBM did have their S/390 on a card that they sold with their P/390 'developer's systems' in the early 90s. I'd imagine those used a microprocessor... -- Pat From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 14 23:09:36 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Re: Is there no end (Pat Finnegan) References: Message-ID: <15386.56080.996372.551337@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 14, Pat Finnegan wrote: > I am pretty sure it runs on some IBM PPC proc... At least that's what I > gathered when IBM sent some guy to give what amounted to a sales pitch to > our LUG. Could be wrong, but I dont really think so. BTW I mean MODERN > eg. zSeries, not old. Umm, not as far as I'm aware, no. The S/390 is a mainframe architecture, not a large microprocessor-based system. While I have a lot of respect for PPC processors, they don't have quite *that* much horsepower. > Anyways, IBM did have their S/390 on a card that > they sold with their P/390 'developer's systems' in the early 90s. I'd > imagine those used a microprocessor... I have one in front of me. It's not a PPC. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 15 01:06:16 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > > as PPC. > > I am pretty sure it runs on some IBM PPC proc... At least that's what I > gathered when IBM sent some guy to give what amounted to a sales pitch to > our LUG. Could be wrong, but I dont really think so. BTW I mean MODERN > eg. zSeries, not old. Anyways, IBM did have their S/390 on a card that > they sold with their P/390 'developer's systems' in the early 90s. I'd > imagine those used a microprocessor... Nope. My S/390 G5 (the oldest S/390 *barely* is ten years old... there are no ancient S/390's) which is only a couple of years old has CPU's that take up two boards each. The z/Series machines are basically the same, as they only use faster CPU's in the same 64-bit S/390 backplane. So, no, there are no microprocessor CPU's in the z/S. Peace... Sridhar From pat at purdueriots.com Fri Dec 14 23:00:02 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > as PPC. Furthurmore, I remember the speed they quoted (less than a year ago) of about 1-2 Gigaflops per "Refrigerator" (as the IBM guy put it). That would fall in line nicely with a multi-proc PPC system. -- Pat From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 15 01:06:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > > as PPC. > > Furthurmore, I remember the speed they quoted (less than a year ago) of > about 1-2 Gigaflops per "Refrigerator" (as the IBM guy put it). That > would fall in line nicely with a multi-proc PPC system. Let me put it another way... I own three S/390's, I spend a considerable amount of time with my hands in them. The 10-Processor G5 S/390 is rated to a similar speed as a 32-processor POWER4-based RS/6000. In fact, they no longer even make PowerPC based RS/6000's. Basically the slowest processor used in RS/6000 now is the POWER3-II. Peace... Sridhar From pat at purdueriots.com Sat Dec 15 01:55:45 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > > > as PPC. > > > > Furthurmore, I remember the speed they quoted (less than a year ago) of > > about 1-2 Gigaflops per "Refrigerator" (as the IBM guy put it). That > > would fall in line nicely with a multi-proc PPC system. > > Let me put it another way... I own three S/390's, I spend a considerable > amount of time with my hands in them. The 10-Processor G5 S/390 is rated > to a similar speed as a 32-processor POWER4-based RS/6000. In fact, they > no longer even make PowerPC based RS/6000's. Basically the slowest > processor used in RS/6000 now is the POWER3-II. OK, Let me rephrase: The PR guy that IBM sent out to our LUG meeting was a moron. -- Pat From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 14 23:14:56 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now > zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. Um, Pat, where you at? When I said I had "enough" AIX boxen, I may well have meant "too many". Doc Austin, Texas From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 14 23:52:26 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:04 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: from Pat Finnegan at "Dec 14, 1 09:16:55 pm" Message-ID: <200112150552.VAA07900@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? >:-) > > (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) > ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now > zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. I was making a somewhat obscure joke; the Apple Network Server runs AIX and can't run MacOS either (at least not without serious hardware hacking). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped. -- Groucho Marx ----------------- From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 15 02:37:56 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > How do you think the boards were cleaned by the manufacturer? > > Boardwashers!!!!! (big versions of dishwashers - usually with conveyors for > constant operation) > Don't take my word for it; take a board that you know is operational, of > little value to you, test it out, and run it through the dishwasher using > the steps outlined above. After a few days of drying, test it out. It'll > work. And - I severely doubt that you get it any cleaner using any other > method. I've washed box after box of boards after the flood we had in Houston back in June. Some boards went thru a dishwasher 8-10 times before they were totally clean. Most of the boards went thru a cycle with a half cup of bleach and a cup of 'washing soda' (made by Arm & Hammer) to kill bacteria and other nasty stuff that they were contaminated with. Some boards even needed a scrubbing with baking soda and a *very* soft plastic brush. So far, every single board I salvaged has worked after completely cleaning it. Nearly all switching power supplies were fried, all due to the fact they were powered up when hit by flood water. If boards full of surface mount chips can survive this kind of abuse, there is no reason a board populated with tons of dips or other components can not safely be washed in a dishwasher. A good many systems brought to me for salvage/rescue were located in the basement shown in this page: http://www.uthouston.edu/FORMEDIA/NEWSRELEASES/NR2001/MSB-FLOOD-story.HTM Those boxes had been under 20 feet of water for a week and a half or longer, and so far have been the most dirty and disgusting systems I've ever salvaged. If you want to see other images of just how bad the flood was overall, this page has quite a few photos: http://www.iisrp.com/Theismann/2001-Flood/houston-flood-of-2001.htm -Toth From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 15 02:46:04 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > OK, Let me rephrase: > > The PR guy that IBM sent out to our LUG meeting was a moron. Almost as consistently as Microsoft shoots its own foot, Major Corporations(tm) underestimate the skillsets, education, intelligence, and sheer perversity of Linux User Group audiences. They send PR flacks and sales reps instead of technicians or developers, and we send them home without their hides. Doc > > -- Pat > From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 15 02:48:39 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > I felt it appropriate to respond, since I own three S/390's myself. > > Yes, I had gathered that, so I knew you would rise up righteous in > defense of them. > Um, wait. Three. As in (3), two more than (1)? Yes. I own three complete S/390's. I also own an ES/9000, a Burroughs G20M/200, and I will soon own a IBM 7090. Peace... Sridhar > we're not worthy. > > Peace to you, as well. > Doc > > From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 15 02:53:34 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20011215025235.U79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > I know that a good percentage of you are skeptical. Every one of my > games in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the > dishwasher. Several others had every single board through the wash. > All of them work, and did so before going into the dishwasher and > immediately after drying. Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took > an entire 11/780 out into my driveway and I powerwashed the chassis > AND backplane! I thought we weren't supposed to use the dishwasher on anything with capacitors. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 15 03:39:49 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <20011215025235.U79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > > > I know that a good percentage of you are skeptical. Every one of my > > games in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the > > dishwasher. Several others had every single board through the wash. > > All of them work, and did so before going into the dishwasher and > > immediately after drying. Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took > > an entire 11/780 out into my driveway and I powerwashed the chassis > > AND backplane! > > I thought we weren't supposed to use the dishwasher on anything with > capacitors. It's fine, as long as the capacitors aren't charged. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 03:52:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <20011215025235.U79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15387.7516.674177.744555@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > I know that a good percentage of you are skeptical. Every one of my > > > games in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the > > > dishwasher. Several others had every single board through the wash. > > > All of them work, and did so before going into the dishwasher and > > > immediately after drying. Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took > > > an entire 11/780 out into my driveway and I powerwashed the chassis > > > AND backplane! > > > > I thought we weren't supposed to use the dishwasher on anything with > > capacitors. > > It's fine, as long as the capacitors aren't charged. ...and as long as they're not paper capacitors. Most paper capacitors are dipped in wax, but that won't always make a perfect waterproof seal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 15 03:00:09 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <3C1B02DD.18CC11B6@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20011215025427.J79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but what about core > memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite > delicate.... any special handling needed? I asked and was told not to clean the core, that whatever junk gets stuck in there wou't hurt the core's operation. Maybe it's time for round 2 of the discussion. What if something in that dust is conductive? What if something in that dust has wierd magnetic properties? What if that dust interferes with the core's cooling? What if I slowly dipped the core board into a pan of IPA or distilled water, then slowly lifted it out, and repeated until the core board was clean? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 15 03:41:15 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <20011215025427.J79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but what about core > > memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite > > delicate.... any special handling needed? > > I asked and was told not to clean the core, that whatever junk gets stuck > in there wou't hurt the core's operation. Maybe it's time for round 2 of > the discussion. > > What if something in that dust is conductive? > What if something in that dust has wierd magnetic properties? > What if that dust interferes with the core's cooling? > > What if I slowly dipped the core board into a pan of IPA or distilled > water, then slowly lifted it out, and repeated until the core board was > clean? The problem with cleaning core isn't that it's sensitive to water. It's that it's really easy to break the little wires. Peace... Sridhar From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 15 03:00:52 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20011215024539.H79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > I'd also include Geeks who program any machine that could accidentally > kill someone That has been documented. I believe the machine in question was called the Thorac and it irradiated two people to death. I'm too sleepy to search on Google right now or I'd provide more information. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 15 03:25:38 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <3C1A91D3.911C5012@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20011215023529.C79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . > > Ok, what does it take to really write code and solve programs? > (Unlicensed programer/coder here ). Writing code is easy... There's a big difference between writing code to solve problems and being a software engineer. Designing, coding, and compiling is only 40% of the battle. Hopefully you're also spending some time planning and testing. Also, don't forget the the heaping mounds of beaurocracy that you must put up with, whether in the name of a software process or for just plain corporate BS. I'm still in college, but I believe this is how it works. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Dec 15 03:21:43 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! In-Reply-To: <200112150308.WAA31373@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011215011636.00ba6580@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 10:08 PM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >People on here have talked about people on eBay taking a perfectly good >working machine and selling it off piece by piece but this takes the >capacitor screwdriver, soldering iron and sucker.... > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 > >This person? is selling 40 little plastic thingies that go under a key on >the Commodore 128's keyboard along with a spring!!! > >Bryan > >Excuse while I go bang my head against a wall... Did you know if you do that >for an hour you burn 150 calories? oh, come on -- it isn't like the guy was unsoldering the TTL from an Apple 1 to sell as parts. If he is willing to put in the effort and ship 50 boxes to make $50, then he has a lot more time on his hands than I do. So even if they came from a working machine, perhaps 5 people out there who have a Commodore 128 sitting unused because it has a broken keycap can buy a replacement part at a reasonable price, yielding a net increase in working vintage machines. Speaking as a person who has an organ donation card filled out, I just hope that my logic applies only to computers and not to people who haven't yet reached the end of the line. I'd rather keep my organs for a while longer. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 15 03:27:00 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: Commodore built a "luggable" C64 with 5in colour CRT and 5.25in drive, I've never seen one on ebay. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/c9357154/attachment.html From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 15 03:37:40 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: HP Piecemeal auction ? Message-ID: <145.6596e7d.294c73e4@aol.com> Anybody have a spare HP 9825 16-bit hybrid processor ? I have a machine that needs one. Best regards Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/37a44fa8/attachment.html From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 15 04:05:58 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: <15f.5a55078.294c7a86@aol.com> On Sat 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > There's a big difference between writing code to solve problems and being > a software engineer. Designing, coding, and compiling is only 40% of the > battle. Hopefully you're also spending some time planning and testing. The company I work for seem to have forgotten the planning and testing part of the software design process. We had a lot of embedded software written by outside contractors for a 486 running QNX real time OS. Over the years the software has evolved into the hardware equivalent of a rats nest and it's been left to our customers to find the bugs - most being "show stoppers". I sometimes wonder just how many customers we've lost because of this. Also, dont get me wrong, the same should be applied to hardware design. We recently interviewed an electronics engineering graduate who didn't know the difference between NPN and PNP transistors !! What do they teach kids these days ?? Should engineers be licensed ? - It's not a bad idea. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/6be5f4dd/attachment.html From mranalog at attbi.com Sat Dec 15 04:06:43 2001 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: Co-routines was Re: [PDP8-Lovers] if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 Message-ID: <3C1B20B3.D755DDFC@attbi.com> "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > So what, exactly is a co-routine? I've heard the term before, but I'm not > entirely sure what they are, or how they would work. > -spc (I may have used them in assembly, but not knew the proper term ... ) The only time I remember using a coroutine was a time when I had no interrupts to use. The Sega Genesis has a 68000 with main program memory, plus a sound system controlled by a Z80 with it's own sound memory. Sound memory is loaded with a sound driver written in Z80 assembly. Now the sound system has a free running timer but no interrupts, so most games had a sound driver that played FM sounds or a sound driver that played digitized sound. My job was to take an FM sound driver and make it play digitized sound at the same time. So I wrote a routine that quickly checked if a digitized sound was playing and if it was, then check if it was time to stuff the next value of the digitized sound. The hard part was then to pepper the existing sound driver with calls to this coroutine such that the existing sound driver would not be slowed down and that the digitized sound would be played at a constant rate. It worked great. Oh! "what, exactly is a co-routine?" A coroutine is a procedure that executes from the point it last suspended execution up to the next instruction that suspends its execution. That is, it preserves state between invocations. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 15 09:34:00 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: Message-ID: <3C1B6D68.6924A372@internet1.net> I've never seen core in real life...... how small are the wires? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > The problem with cleaning core isn't that it's sensitive to water. It's > that it's really easy to break the little wires. > > Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 11:18:44 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Chad Fernandez "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 15, 10:34) References: <3C1B6D68.6924A372@internet1.net> Message-ID: <10112151718.ZM20625@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 10:34, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I've never seen core in real life...... how small are the wires? Depends on the core, but thinner than hair, usually. There's a picture of an H214 core board on EBay at the moment; you'll see 12 large and 8 small dark rectangles on it. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309747460 The larger rectangles measure approximately 5/8" x 2 1/4". Those rectangles are the core mat; it's an 8K x 16 bit core mat. Each of those 131072 ferrite cores has three wires going through it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 15 14:47:41 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <3C1B6D68.6924A372@internet1.net> <10112151718.ZM20625@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3C1BB6ED.D3AC98DE@internet1.net> So it's almost like cloth, but made of wire? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Dec 15, 10:34, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I've never seen core in real life...... how small are the wires? > > Depends on the core, but thinner than hair, usually. There's a picture of > an H214 core board on EBay at the moment; you'll see 12 large and 8 small > dark rectangles on it. > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309747460 > > The larger rectangles measure approximately 5/8" x 2 1/4". Those > rectangles are the core mat; it's an 8K x 16 bit core mat. Each of those > 131072 ferrite cores has three wires going through it. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 15:23:36 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Chad Fernandez "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 15, 15:47) References: <3C1B6D68.6924A372@internet1.net> <10112151718.ZM20625@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3C1BB6ED.D3AC98DE@internet1.net> Message-ID: <10112152123.ZM20842@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 15:47, Chad Fernandez wrote: > So it's almost like cloth, but made of wire? Yup, though the ferrite core rings mean the spacing between strands is larger than in cloth woven from thread. And it's knitted. I was told the other day that there are still two old ladies in the Midlands who can repair some types of core by re-knitting it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 20:26:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: OT: 486 laptop needed In-Reply-To: <10112152123.ZM20842@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3C1B6D68.6924A372@internet1.net> <10112151718.ZM20625@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3C1BB6ED.D3AC98DE@internet1.net> <10112152123.ZM20842@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: I'm in need of a 486 laptop to provide to a student going off to college. I would prefer color and a processor of at least a 486DX4/75, but will consider whatever is available. Thanks Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 15 19:51:29 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <3C1B6D68.6924A372@internet1.net> Message-ID: <00cd01c185d4$7067db20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I've never seen core in real life...... how small are the wires? I've seen cores as small as 1/3mm OD. Through the ID then goes as many as three wires. Perhaps smaller than 1/12mm for the wires. Older core boards would have larger cores, some even bigger than 2MM. I have a Question for the other core users out there: How would I test-signal a board, for demos, that is just a core frame, IE one sacrificed from its stack and sold at the e- flea market? > So it's almost like cloth, but made of wire? Wire "cloth" with a ferrite metal "washer" (the core) at every x-y crossing of the "threads", then one additional 'thread' snaked through. John A. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 09:45:49 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Matthew Sell "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 15, 1:32) References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <10112151545.ZM20504@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 1:32, Matthew Sell wrote: > Here's the secrets to doing this right: > > 1) Do not use any detergents. NONE. Why not? Commercially, detergents are used to remove flux. I use laboratory detergent to clean PCBs I've made or modified. I don't use washing-up liquid, though, and I don't use the harsher detergents sometimes found in dishwasher detergent. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 15 09:49:38 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Mark Crispin wrote: > > > I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic > > equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. > > Are you kidding? Have you been to the manufacturing line of a large > systems manufacturer (I've been to several)? They wash boards down with > water over and over again in the manufacturing process? You can't hurt > boards with water, as long as you dry them off before you turn them back > on again, and you don't use soap. All my MicroVAXen have been through the > dishwasher at least once. > > Peace... Sridhar > > Be careful about dishwashers and _old_ electronics: (pre Epoxy B) silicone IC packages (usually gray 70s vintage) are very succeptable to damage from moisture incursion --> corrosion. That being said, I wash (newer) circuit cards all the time in hot water, a little detergent, and a toothbrush. Actually a lot of the new soldering processes for the surface mount stuff we do use a water based flux, and are water washed as the standard processing... Peter Wallace From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 10:12:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: Message-ID: <008101c18583$3a86b040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've never heard any warnings against "soap and water" cleaning of assembled PC boards so long as one takes pains to remove the "soap" (it's usually something much stronger, like TSP) and thoroughly drying the board before using it. If you use solvents to dissolve the flux residue on the board, it simply spreads it unless you have a large immersion system, so soap and water is used to remove the residue. You then have to remove the soap residue, and, since dishwashers don't heat the boards any more than normal operation under worst-case conditions, you won't damage 'em with the dishwasher. I would suppress the "DRY" cycle, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:49 AM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Mark Crispin wrote: > > > > > I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic > > > equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. > > > > Are you kidding? Have you been to the manufacturing line of a large > > systems manufacturer (I've been to several)? They wash boards down with > > water over and over again in the manufacturing process? You can't hurt > > boards with water, as long as you dry them off before you turn them back > > on again, and you don't use soap. All my MicroVAXen have been through the > > dishwasher at least once. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > > > Be careful about dishwashers and _old_ electronics: (pre Epoxy B) silicone > IC packages (usually gray 70s vintage) are very succeptable to damage from > moisture incursion --> corrosion. That being said, I wash (newer) circuit > cards all the time in hot water, a little detergent, and a toothbrush. > > Actually a lot of the new soldering processes for the surface mount stuff > we do use a water based flux, and are water washed as the standard > processing... > > > Peter Wallace > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 15 11:42:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: Cleaning core (was: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <008101c18583$3a86b040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Wouldn't the right way to clean core be to disassemble it, clean the beads thoroughly, and then restring with fresh wire? IF you were to accurately keep track of which bead was in each location, as well as its orientation (there are two sides to a bead), then it should still have the same content stored in it on re-assembly! From msell at ontimesupport.com Sat Dec 15 12:29:50 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: Cleaning core (was: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: References: <008101c18583$3a86b040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215122911.0319ae50@127.0.0.1> Now there is a job to give to somebody if you didn't want them around for a while..... : ) - Matt At 09:42 AM 12/15/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Wouldn't the right way to clean core be to disassemble it, clean the beads >thoroughly, and then restring with fresh wire? > >IF you were to accurately keep track of which bead was in each location, >as well as its orientation (there are two sides to a bead), then it should >still have the same content stored in it on re-assembly! Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 15 10:27:19 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3C1B79E7.9BA052D1@jetnet.ab.ca> Matthew Sell wrote: > Depending on the type of equipment that is being produced, some may use > distilled water, others filtered water, some use "deionized" water. > 1) Do not use any detergents. NONE. > 2) Turn off the plate warming and drying cycles. The heating elements in > the washer can distort or damage plastics. > 3) Remove soon after cycle is complete. Do not let items sit overnight. > Shake off water. > 4) Stand up or hang to dry. > 5) Let items dry inside the house for several days. I usually don't touch > washed items for at least 3-4 days. > 6) Don't plug the item in to power of any form until step #5 has completed. > > For delicate items, I use water from the sink at a low flow rate, and spray > a mixture of 409 and water onto the item and allow it to soak for a few > minutes before rinsing. I may use a soft paintbrush to clean stubborn dirt > if necessary. Rinse and repeat. > Of course, don't wash the boards with your regular load of plates and > pots..... : ) I also would consider the qaulity of the water. I would wash in distilled water. The last thing you want is clorine or other acids and junk from the water slower eating your PCB. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 13:35:37 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Ben Franchuk "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 15, 9:27) References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> <3C1B79E7.9BA052D1@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <10112151935.ZM20714@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 9:27, Ben Franchuk wrote: > I also would consider the qaulity of the water. I would wash in > distilled > water. The last thing you want is clorine or other acids and junk from > the > water slower eating your PCB. For the time it takes to wash a PCB, nothing dissolved in normal water is going to matter. Make sure it's free of paticulate matter that might get stuck somwhere, don't use the raw undiluted waste from someone else's chemical process, but there's no need to go over the top. The chlorine added to tap water, for example, will do no harm. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From msell at ontimesupport.com Sat Dec 15 11:58:49 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <3C1B02DD.18CC11B6@internet1.net> References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215115704.02853e58@127.0.0.1> Chad, I probably would not use a dishwasher on core memory because of the rotating jets that are used for cleaning. I'd handwash 'em - prpbably not using any brushes or such. Just lightly mist with cleaner and carefully rinse. - Matt At 02:59 AM 12/15/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but what about core >memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite >delicate.... any special handling needed? > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Matthew Sell wrote: > > > > Guys, > > > > This argument always comes up every few months on the video game collecting > > newsgroups that I'm a member of. > > > > Here we go.... Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From msell at ontimesupport.com Sat Dec 15 12:12:59 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <20011215025235.U79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215115936.02857570@127.0.0.1> Jeffrey, I personally don't wash large capacitors. Maybe critical paper capacitors - if they were used as the basis for an oscillator that had to have a tight frequency range. Usually these capacitors are found in radios, and usually there are means for readjustment. I don't make a habit of washing big filter capacitors - I just replace them. Usually they are found in heavy-duty power supplies and after twenty years of use are ready for the trashcan. They get removed, the board goes into the dishwasher with it's brothers, and a new capacitor gets installed. My video games get the same treatment. For example - I have a Lunar Lander that needs the 5v filter capacitor replaced. It was made in 1979, so it's 22 years old. When playing, and you give it full thrust, the rumbling thrusting sound causes the 5v supply to drop to about 4.7 volts and you can hear a distinct 60Hz power line "hum" in the speaker. The capacitor is shot - it's a chronic problem in early Atari games. I'd consider this when firing up an old computer and you get strange, silly behavior. Put your voltmeter into "AC" mode, and check the AC voltage on the various DC supplies. If you get 1/4 volt (250 millivolts) or more of AC "ripple" on the DC supply, the power supply needs repair. Probably one of those big filter "caps" needs to be replaced. Such an excessive ripple on the DC supplies to the computer could very easily cause it to go wacko and give erronious results, claim that 1 + 1 = 7, etc., etc. The video game collecting guys sometimes will go bonkers troubleshooting logic problems for days, before they realize that the filter capacitor on one of the power supplies is shot and causing the game to act silly. - Matt At 02:53 AM 12/15/2001 -0600, you wrote: >On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > > > I know that a good percentage of you are skeptical. Every one of my > > games in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the > > dishwasher. Several others had every single board through the wash. > > All of them work, and did so before going into the dishwasher and > > immediately after drying. Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took > > an entire 11/780 out into my driveway and I powerwashed the chassis > > AND backplane! > >I thought we weren't supposed to use the dishwasher on anything with >capacitors. > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Dec 15 12:14:06 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <3C1B79E7.9BA052D1@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011215131406.00f8ddc0@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:27 AM 12/15/01 -0700, you wrote: >I also would consider the qaulity of the water. I would wash in >distilled >water. The last thing you want is clorine or other acids and junk from >the >water slower eating your PCB. Chlorine shouldn't be a problem because it will diffuse out to the air before it has a chance to do damage. Sweat from your hands would be very, very bad and will cause widespread corrosion in the long term. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From msell at ontimesupport.com Sat Dec 15 12:20:36 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <10112151545.ZM20504@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215121538.03196a88@127.0.0.1> Pete, Not having the benefit of decent chemistry knowledge, I tend to avoid using solvents and detergents on delicate items, especially ones that have collectibility or vintage value. I don't know enough about the effects of using certain chemicals on the various plastics and expoxies used in the manufacture of the boards, so I steer clear of using a detergent unless I know that it would be perfectly fine. My experience has been that with certain devices that spend entire lives inside, that usually a rinse with hot water makes them look new. I've been satisfied with just using hot water, and everything looks nearly new when complete. Just a precaution I mention without having experience with detergents..... - Matt At 03:45 PM 12/15/2001 +0000, you wrote: >On Dec 15, 1:32, Matthew Sell wrote: > > > Here's the secrets to doing this right: > > > > 1) Do not use any detergents. NONE. > >Why not? Commercially, detergents are used to remove flux. I use >laboratory detergent to clean PCBs I've made or modified. I don't use >washing-up liquid, though, and I don't use the harsher detergents sometimes >found in dishwasher detergent. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 14:43:05 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Matthew Sell "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 15, 12:20) References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215121538.03196a88@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <10112152043.ZM20792@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 12:20, Matthew Sell wrote: > I don't know enough about the effects of using certain chemicals on the > various plastics and expoxies used in the manufacture of the boards, so I > steer clear of using a detergent unless I know that it would be perfectly fine. No normal detergent will attack ordinary plastics or epoxies. Some industrial detergent powders include caustic ingedients, and (mainly for that reason, and because they can harm skin) are banned from domestic sale in the UK, and also, I beieve, in the USA. In general, any home-use detergent safe to use on your skin, clothes, etc, is safe on PCBs and electronics. I'd be wary of some organic solvents, including alcohols, however. Some attack plastics such as Perspex (Lucite), polystyrene, ABS, etc; some will attack some types of enamel insulation on wire; some affect PVC insulation, making it swell or become brittle. > My experience has been that with certain devices that spend entire lives > inside, that usually a rinse with hot water makes them look new. I've been > satisfied with just using hot water, and everything looks nearly new when > complete. Unfortunately that doesn't apply to computers that have been in places where they may accumulate sticky substances from the air (tobacco film, brewing residue, oily film + dust, etc). In that case, warm water and a moderate amount of detergent is the kindest thing you could use. Ever tried to clean an old TV set with plain water? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 15:22:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (Pete Turnbull) References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215121538.03196a88@127.0.0.1> <10112152043.ZM20792@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15387.48916.105327.449579@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, Pete Turnbull wrote: > No normal detergent will attack ordinary plastics or epoxies. Some > industrial detergent powders include caustic ingedients, and (mainly for > that reason, and because they can harm skin) are banned from domestic sale > in the UK, and also, I beieve, in the USA. In general, any home-use > detergent safe to use on your skin, clothes, etc, is safe on PCBs and > electronics. Alconox Inc. makes a few different cleaning compounds specifically for PCBs and electronic components. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From msell at ontimesupport.com Sat Dec 15 12:28:50 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <3C1B79E7.9BA052D1@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215122131.031a2bc0@127.0.0.1> Ben, Typically, the time spent "in the water" isn't long enough to damage. Even items made of steel and iron won't rust if the water is removed after the cycle is complete. If they sit overnight, well, that's a different story. The only production problem I saw with untreated water was with an electronic test instrument that had a lot of high-impedance signal interconnects throughout. Many signal lines ran for long distances next to each other. While the design of this piece of test equipment was questionable, it was our duty to get it to work. The two biggest problems were contaminants from the water supply used in the washing process (city water - switched to using a commercial filtration system), and humidity (had to paint a sealant on all of the boards). Typical TTL logic, low frequency systems do not suffer from these problems.... - Matt >I also would consider the qaulity of the water. I would wash in >distilled >water. The last thing you want is clorine or other acids and junk from >the >water slower eating your PCB. > >-- >Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 14:50:31 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:05 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Matthew Sell "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 15, 12:28) References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215122131.031a2bc0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <10112152050.ZM20798@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 12:28, Matthew Sell wrote: > Typically, the time spent "in the water" isn't long enough to damage. Even > items made of steel and iron won't rust if the water is removed after the > cycle is complete. If they sit overnight, well, that's a different story. > > The only production problem I saw with untreated water was with an > electronic test instrument that had a lot of high-impedance signal > interconnects throughout. Many signal lines ran for long distances next to > each other. While the design of this piece of test equipment was > questionable, it was our duty to get it to work. > > The two biggest problems were contaminants from the water supply used in > the washing process (city water - switched to using a commercial filtration > system), and humidity (had to paint a sealant on all of the boards). That's a well-known problem. Some of the residues from a domestic water supply -- especially in hard water areas -- are mildly hygroscopic, and as a result, the boards would acquire very small amounts of moisture on the surface, especially when exposed to a humid atmosphere. In combination with the salts in the residue, this makes for leakage across the board, which could easily upset very high impedance circuits. I heard of someone who had the opposite problem. He designed a CMOS circuit which worked fine when forst contructed, but stopped when given anti-environment protection or was potted. He'd inadvertantly relied on the normal leakage across a PCB to hold the unused inputs of a CMOS gate at a particular level. Remove the leakage current and the gate stops working properly. Solution: add the pullup resistor that should have been there in the first place. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 21:35:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215011325.00a9d4b8@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011215122131.031a2bc0@127.0.0.1> <10112152050.ZM20798@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <006101c185e2$a429f200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It might be worth noting whether your water is "soft" before applying it to your boards. The minerals in may municipal water supplies might be sufficient to cause problems. Getting them off might be a bigger problem than with "normal" mineral content. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? > On Dec 15, 12:28, Matthew Sell wrote: > > > Typically, the time spent "in the water" isn't long enough to damage. > Even > > items made of steel and iron won't rust if the water is removed after the > > cycle is complete. If they sit overnight, well, that's a different story. > > > > The only production problem I saw with untreated water was with an > > electronic test instrument that had a lot of high-impedance signal > > interconnects throughout. Many signal lines ran for long distances next > to > > each other. While the design of this piece of test equipment was > > questionable, it was our duty to get it to work. > > > > The two biggest problems were contaminants from the water supply used in > > the washing process (city water - switched to using a commercial > filtration > > system), and humidity (had to paint a sealant on all of the boards). > > That's a well-known problem. Some of the residues from a domestic water > supply -- especially in hard water areas -- are mildly hygroscopic, and as > a result, the boards would acquire very small amounts of moisture on the > surface, especially when exposed to a humid atmosphere. In combination > with the salts in the residue, this makes for leakage across the board, > which could easily upset very high impedance circuits. > > I heard of someone who had the opposite problem. He designed a CMOS > circuit which worked fine when forst contructed, but stopped when given > anti-environment protection or was potted. He'd inadvertantly relied on > the normal leakage across a PCB to hold the unused inputs of a CMOS gate at > a particular level. Remove the leakage current and the gate stops working > properly. Solution: add the pullup resistor that should have been there in > the first place. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 14:41:48 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <01fe01c185aa$79573f20$4ef19a8d@ajp166> From: Mark Crispin >I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic >equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. You never seen how they were made then. >It may be alright to (gently!) vaccuum away dust and deteriorated foam >rubber, although a feather duster may be more appropriate. I would not Believe it or not vacuuming can create damaging ESD for sensitive boards like core drivers and even TTL! >risk anything else, and certainly not insert anything (including water or >alcohol) under the plexiglass shield protecting the core. Correct there. The core plane is fragile. >A damp cloth with perhaps a bit of soap to the exterior surfaces of the >case is probably all you really need, but be sure not to let any liquid >seep into the inerior. A lot of the PDP-8s have lived in industrial enviornments and offices where clean air is unheard of. Many really are filthy. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 14:44:12 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <01ff01c185aa$79d48570$4ef19a8d@ajp166> From: Chad Fernandez >I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but what about core >memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite >delicate.... any special handling needed? I did a pdp-8/f, washed everything save for the PS and the Core plane. The acutal core plane was fairly clean but everything else was a mess and needed a bath serious. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 14:53:35 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <020201c185ac$93872020$4ef19a8d@ajp166> From: Jeffrey S. Sharp >I asked and was told not to clean the core, that whatever junk gets stuck >in there wou't hurt the core's operation. Maybe it's time for round 2 of >the discussion. > >What if something in that dust is conductive? I'd rise in clean water maybe Isopropanol(91% or better) by dipping in a pan with a large quanitiy. Agitate minimally, no brushing or high pressure air near the mat. dry with warm (NOT HOT) hairdryer. >What if something in that dust has wierd magnetic properties? >What if that dust interferes with the core's cooling? See above. >What if I slowly dipped the core board into a pan of IPA or distilled >water, then slowly lifted it out, and repeated until the core board was >clean? IPA may not be the best bet for the muck. Use a lage quanity so that you don't saturate the solution with the muck. Rinse again with fresh solution to further remove the muck. You might try water with a small (1%) amount of detergent too. Risnse water out with IPA and blow dry with hair dryer on warm, not hot. Remember IPA is flammable and to do a PDP-8 core I'd use about 2 quarts (2L for those on the otherside) for first rine and about the same for the second. So use care and DO IT OUTSIDE. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 21:15:54 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <002601c185e1$ae441dc0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> From: John Allain >I have a Question for the other core users out there: >How would I test-signal a board, for demos, that is >just a core frame, IE one sacrificed from its stack >and sold at the e- flea market? It's a non trivial thing to do. Core by definition is destructive read out memory. So to demo a core you need to provide the coincident current (x,y) and the inhibit/write/read signals with the associated timing. Both the currents and the timing are critical. takes a lot of stuff to do that. Allison From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sat Dec 15 22:10:44 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <002601c185e1$ae441dc0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20011216041044.8191.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> I've looked into this too. Problems are many. It's definitely not a trivial project, lots of analog and electromagnetic voodoo, and the chips that made it easier are very hard to find. I've got a small capacity large doughnut ca. 1960 core plane from an IBM machine and a 4K by 16 plane from the 70's with very tiny doughnuts, both unused, and I'd love to demonstrate how it worked. --- ajp166 wrote: > From: John Allain > >I have a Question for the other core users out > there: > >How would I test-signal a board, for demos, that is > >just a core frame, IE one sacrificed from its stack > > >and sold at the e- flea market? > > > It's a non trivial thing to do. Core by definition > is destructive > read out memory. So to demo a core you need to > provide > the coincident current (x,y) and the > inhibit/write/read signals > with the associated timing. Both the currents and > the > timing are critical. takes a lot of stuff to do > that. > > Allison > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 23:01:42 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (ajp166) References: <002601c185e1$ae441dc0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <15388.10934.355170.564944@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, ajp166 wrote: > >I have a Question for the other core users out there: > >How would I test-signal a board, for demos, that is > >just a core frame, IE one sacrificed from its stack > >and sold at the e- flea market? > > It's a non trivial thing to do. Core by definition is destructive > read out memory. So to demo a core you need to provide > the coincident current (x,y) and the inhibit/write/read signals > with the associated timing. Both the currents and the > timing are critical. takes a lot of stuff to do that. I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can put it online if anyone would like to see it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 15 23:18:12 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <002601c185e1$ae441dc0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> <15388.10934.355170.564944@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C1C2E94.F0A6DA13@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 15, ajp166 wrote: > > >I have a Question for the other core users out there: > > >How would I test-signal a board, for demos, that is > > >just a core frame, IE one sacrificed from its stack > > >and sold at the e- flea market? > > > > It's a non trivial thing to do. Core by definition is destructive > > read out memory. So to demo a core you need to provide > > the coincident current (x,y) and the inhibit/write/read signals > > with the associated timing. Both the currents and the > > timing are critical. takes a lot of stuff to do that. > > I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) > that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of > core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can > put it online if anyone would like to see it. > > -Dave I think that was a design for the 8080 and the S100 bus. It was a really nice design too if I remember right. I remember somebody doing a core-demo on the web. I think it used a iron washer as the core. Since this is not high speed only the current is critical here. (Boy do I miss the early Bytes -- ordinary people designing and using computers -- not multi-billion $$$ bloatware companies -- ) Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 09:37:33 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (Ben Franchuk) References: <002601c185e1$ae441dc0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> <15388.10934.355170.564944@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C1C2E94.F0A6DA13@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15388.49085.424401.920878@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) > > that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of > > core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can > > put it online if anyone would like to see it. > > I think that was a design for the 8080 and the S100 bus. > It was a really nice design too if I remember right. I remember > somebody doing a core-demo on the web. I think it used a iron washer > as the core. Since this is not high speed only the current is critical > here. It should be pretty easy to interface to other processors, then... > (Boy do I miss the early Bytes -- ordinary people designing and using > computers > -- not multi-billion $$$ bloatware companies -- ) Yup. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From pat at purdueriots.com Sat Dec 15 23:47:32 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <15388.10934.355170.564944@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) > that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of > core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can > put it online if anyone would like to see it. I'd definately be interested. -- Pat From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 00:23:23 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (Pat Finnegan) References: <15388.10934.355170.564944@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15388.15835.564307.805777@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) > > that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of > > core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can > > put it online if anyone would like to see it. > > I'd definately be interested. The scans are up at http://ti.neurotica.com/core. They're a bunch of jpegs. No, that wasn't my idea, I didn't do the scanning. :) I might try to turn them into a pdf one of these days. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 15 23:49:58 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <002601c185e1$ae441dc0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> <15388.10934.355170.564944@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001a01c185f5$7f946d40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) > that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of > core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can > put it online if anyone would like to see it. It Would help lots more Dave if you dug out that disk drive. The mv3500 is still pretty useless w/o swap space. John A. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 00:21:07 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (John Allain) References: <002601c185e1$ae441dc0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> <15388.10934.355170.564944@phaduka.neurotica.com> <001a01c185f5$7f946d40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <15388.15699.825447.101485@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, John Allain wrote: > > I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) > > that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of > > core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can > > put it online if anyone would like to see it. > > It Would help lots more Dave if you dug out that disk drive. > The mv3500 is still pretty useless w/o swap space. I've gotten to the bottom of the "staging area"...I think that pile of drives is in my storage locker up in Maryland. I will know for sure soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Dec 16 01:11:16 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <6f.1f733104.294da314@aol.com> In a message dated 12/15/01 9:15:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, mcguire@neurotica.com writes: > I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) > that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of > core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can > put it online if anyone would like to see it. > I would like to see it. I have several pieces of core. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/c8bfd029/attachment.html From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Dec 16 01:32:27 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <13e.64d562b.294da80b@aol.com> In a message dated 12/15/01 10:54:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, mcguire@neurotica.com writes: > > > The scans are up at http://ti.neurotica.com/core. They're a bunch > of jpegs. No, that wasn't my idea, I didn't do the scanning. :) I > might try to turn them into a pdf one of these days. > > Found it. A very interesting issue. There are several other stories I would be interested in also. Thank you. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/a68449a8/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 09:16:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (Innfogra@aol.com) References: <13e.64d562b.294da80b@aol.com> Message-ID: <15388.47824.743919.983467@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > Found it. A very interesting issue. There are several other stories I would > be interested in also. Thank you. You're very welcome. Unfortunately these scans aren't from *my* bytes...my collection doesn't go back that far, as I was 7 years old in 1976...so I can't go scan more of 'em. :-( Eventually I'll beef up my BYTE collection, probably via eBay. There are a LOT of great articles in there. Of course I do have all of the wonderful Ciarcia books, so my BYTE collecting motivation has been partially satisfied. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 16 12:23:22 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <13e.64d562b.294da80b@aol.com> <15388.47824.743919.983467@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <006a01c1865e$bef10980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Unfortunately these scans aren't from *my* bytes...my collection > doesn't go back that far, as I was 7 years old in 1976...so I can't go > scan more of 'em. :-( I guess I can pony up and put at least one jpegged BYTE article up for people to see, perhaps one a month. I have no great ideas on how to pick the titles, however. Some kind of democratic thing? John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 09:34:20 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <000201c18648$5ac82d00$82f19a8d@ajp166> >> I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I think) >> that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of >> core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can >> put it online if anyone would like to see it. I'd love to see scans of this one too. I remember the article but somehow lost it. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 11:12:11 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <000201c18648$5ac82d00$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C1CD5EB.13AFDE74@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > > >> I have some scans of an old BYTE Magazine article (July 1976 I > think) > >> that details how to build a common interface for an arbitrary chunk of > >> core. I haven't really read it in-depth but I plan to someday. I can > >> put it online if anyone would like to see it. > > I'd love to see scans of this one too. I remember the article but > somehow lost it. > > Allison After reading the core memory stuff I realized the what I was thinking about was dynamic memory (16k chips) for a 2 mhz 8080 in byte. The reason I got confused was it used the split memory cycle read-write as core memory. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 09:42:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <000401c18648$5bb9b8f0$82f19a8d@ajp166> The older large ferrite core is easier to work with though much slower. The bigger cores produce a larger output when they switch but the cycle times are in the 3-5uS range. The later is helpful for demos as nothing is too fast. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Loboyko Steve To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, December 15, 2001 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? >I've looked into this too. Problems are many. It's >definitely not a trivial project, lots of analog and >electromagnetic voodoo, and the chips that made it >easier are very hard to find. I've got a small >capacity large doughnut ca. 1960 core plane from an >IBM machine and a 4K by 16 plane from the 70's with >very tiny doughnuts, both unused, and I'd love to >demonstrate how it worked. > > >--- ajp166 wrote: >> From: John Allain >> >I have a Question for the other core users out >> there: >> >How would I test-signal a board, for demos, that is >> >just a core frame, IE one sacrificed from its stack >> >> >and sold at the e- flea market? >> >> >> It's a non trivial thing to do. Core by definition >> is destructive >> read out memory. So to demo a core you need to >> provide >> the coincident current (x,y) and the >> inhibit/write/read signals >> with the associated timing. Both the currents and >> the >> timing are critical. takes a lot of stuff to do >> that. >> >> Allison >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 06:48:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Gunther Schadow "how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 14, 23:47) References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <10112151248.ZM20226@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 14, 23:47, Gunther Schadow wrote: > But first I need to give this thing a good cleaning. A friend > has assured me that there's nothing better than the dishwasher, > with the exception of big capacitors and, what about magnetic > core memory? So, how should I clean the RAM cards? How the > DC power supply units? NOT the core! If you need to clean the core, my suggestion would be to immerse it in a washing-up basin with tepid water and a little soap or washing-up detergent, and *gently* swish it about a little. Then rinse twice, let it drain, and dry off gently. Don't use compressed air or solvents. > If I put the other stuff in the dishwasher, I know there should > be no detergent and no heat dry. But what about the rinsing > aid, do I have to pump this out of the reservoir? I don't think the detergent will do any harm, providing it's not too caustic, but avoid excessively hot water and high-temperature drying. Before you use the dishwasher, check for switches etc that might not take kindly to being immersed in soapy water, and either carefully remove them (taking careful note of where they go) and relays (don't wash relays). Also check for any labels that will be damaged or which might come off and end up where you don't want them. The rinse aid won't do any harm at all, in fact it wil help the water drain off (it's just a wetting agent). > I heard of another method using hand-washing first, then drying > and finally a bath in Isopropanol. Is that what I should do > with the core memory cards? Yes, see above, but omit the IPA. When I cleaned my PDP-8/E recently, I put all the boards except the core in the dishwasher, along with the front panel circuit board (I removed the LEDs first, since they were in bi-pin sockets), over-the-top connectors, and the two backplanes. I ran it on the usual cycle, with detergent and rinse aid. When I took the boards out, I blew off the remaining water (some tends to stay under ICs) with compressed air, and gave anything that might harbour water (DIP switches, panel switches) a good dose of iso-propyl alcohol, which I then drained/blew off. The IPA mixes with the remaining water and helps to remove it; the air removes the last traces of IPA. Finally I treated all the switches to a small dose of low-residue switch cleaner/lubricant. Similar treatment for the backplanes and connectors, except it's hard to get the last of the water/IPA out so I let them stand upright in front of a hair drier on a low heat setting for a couple of hours while I got on with other things. The PSU was too big for the dishwasher, and I wouldn't have wanted the transformer in there anyway. The 8/E has a linear supply with a big transformer; the 8/A has a switcher, I think. Anyway, I took off the side panel, removed the fans, relay, and fuse carriers (carefully noting how they were wired). I sprayed it with enzymatic cleaner (it was smelly) and detergent mixed with water in a spray bottle to dissolve the muck, left it to sit for a few minutes, and then rinsed it out with the garden hose (low pressure!) trying to avoid getting too much water into the transformer. Then I drained it out, and used most of a 500g aerosol of IPA to flush out the water, and compressed air to remove the residue, especially in the connectors. I let it stand in a warm dry room overnight before powering it up; I figured there might still be dampness in nooks and crannies in the transformer, and I didn't want to take chances. If you have small parts that need washed, then they can go in the cutlery basket in the dishwasher providing they're heavy enough not to jump out (metal brackets for example) or in a strong mesh bag in the dishwasher. For more delicate things you can tie them in a pillowcase and put them in the washing machine. I use the pillowcase/washing machine for keytops, cartridge cases, etc. Most of the foam in my 8/E was past redemption, so I stripped it off with a wallpaper stripping knife and replaced it with "high-density" upholstery foam about 3/8" thick -- not the really high density stuff that seems to be made of lumps of recylcled stuff, just the stuff used to pad seats. I cleaned off the old glue and stuck the new foam on with spray glue, after masking off the area to spray (like you would for spray paint). The foam under the backplanes was OK, so it went in the (clothes) washing machine on a hot wash. > Finally, finally, I noticed that the cards are all slightly > bent from being kept in a horizontal position. They are sagging > a little, like a hammock. Would that be a cause of concern > in the long run? Should I mount the chassis in an upright > position in the future? Not unless they're so badly warped that things might short between cards. Some of mine were warped when I got them, and don't seem to have suffered. > any other things I should know? Use a pen torch to look in the backplane slots for any rubbish the dishwasher might not remove (paperclips, cruddy foam, etc). Do make sure everything is dry before you power them up (or even reassemble them). Do make a note of where and how everything you remove goes back. I thought all the LEDs in my panel were the same way up; they weren't and it took me half an hour (without the circuit diagrams) to get them all the right way round. I find it helpful to put the screws from each section or panel or whatever into a separate ziplock bag or a dish; there are always some missing and it helps figure out what goes where, how many are needed, and what lengths they should be when you come to reassemble it all. Check the fans rotate freely; I always relubricate bronze bearing types with light machine oil. I have a few toggle-in programs I've collected or modified for first-time confidence testing, like the inchworm program and a couple of serial port testers (continuously write character to console; echo console, etc). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 15 09:39:08 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <10112151248.ZM20226@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3C1B6E9C.6722F45C@internet1.net> Oh, you must mean one of those small butane powered blow torches, right :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Pete Turnbull wrote: > Use a pen torch to look in the backplane slots for any rubbish the > dishwasher might not remove (paperclips, cruddy foam, etc). From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 14:39:05 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <01fd01c185aa$78e606c0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> From: Gunther Schadow >I have that itching to start up my new PDP8/A even without >disks attached. Have a programmers console, so that's enough >to enter a few programs. It's intriguing to see a machine Congrats! >But first I need to give this thing a good cleaning. A friend >has assured me that there's nothing better than the dishwasher, >with the exception of big capacitors and, what about magnetic >core memory? So, how should I clean the RAM cards? How the >DC power supply units? The PS do by hand and CORE planes never goes in the dishwasher. The core IO boards can be dishwashed. >If I put the other stuff in the dishwasher, I know there should >be no detergent and no heat dry. But what about the rinsing >aid, do I have to pump this out of the reservoir? No problem. I use minimal detergent as most of the dreg on the boards is water soluable. >I heard of another method using hand-washing first, then drying >and finally a bath in Isopropanol. Is that what I should do >with the core memory cards? Core planes are very fragile and usually covered enough to prevent much muck inside. the driver boards usually get nasty dirty. >Finally, finally, I noticed that the cards are all slightly >bent from being kept in a horizontal position. They are sagging >a little, like a hammock. Would that be a cause of concern >in the long run? Should I mount the chassis in an upright >position in the future? Not an issue, dont try to straighten. >PS: I am probably going to make one "portable" PDP-8, where >the console is mounted on the chassis and the rest of the >opening covered plus a handle on the top. That would be neat >for bringing into the classroom to teach fundamentals of >computer programming, wouldn't it? yes it would PDP-8 is still a good minimalist model to work from. Allison From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Dec 15 21:48:15 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C1C197F.60802@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi again. O.K. I had it all in the dishwasher, except for the PSU stuff with big transformers and capacitors and the memory boards. I removed everything, including the backplane board. I need to take some photos, that backplane is sure amazing from the back. Now its about to dry and next weekend I will reassemble and power up. Yea! However, there are a few more issues to resolve first. The little 16-pole ribbon cable that has DIL chip-like plug on both ends that go into a chip-socket. That plug is bent and pins are broken off. Seems like that happnes all the time. Do I have to and if so how can I replace this? This cable runs between the backplane and, I guess, the limited function front panel. Do I need this, is the limited function front panel needed at all? What's the function of the 16 lines, I assume - GND - LED 1 - LED 2 - LED 3 - SWITCH 1 A - SIWTCH 1 B - SWITCH 2 A - SWITCH 2 B - SWITCH 3 A - SWITCH 3 B remain 6 lines unaccounted for? Will it not run if I don't get that fixed? How can I fix it. Thanks for your help. -Gunther PS: I opened up one of the core memory board-sandwiches and made a few photos. Amazing stuff. Will put those up on my web site soon. -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Dec 16 02:51:33 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Mark Crispin wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > But first I need to give this thing a good cleaning. > > Why? > > > A friend > > has assured me that there's nothing better than the dishwasher, > > with the exception of big capacitors and, what about magnetic > > core memory? > > I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic > equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. I'll have to agree. > It may be alright to (gently!) vaccuum away dust and deteriorated foam > rubber, although a feather duster may be more appropriate. I would not > risk anything else, and certainly not insert anything (including water or > alcohol) under the plexiglass shield protecting the core. Vacuum cleaning (gently!) is about the only thing I'd recommend. > A damp cloth with perhaps a bit of soap to the exterior surfaces of the > case is probably all you really need, but be sure not to let any liquid > seep into the inerior. Exterior cleaning can be considered harmless, but have very little to do with functionality as well. Clean to your hearts content, as long as you stay on the outside. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 16 06:26:13 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 16, 9:51) References: Message-ID: <10112161226.ZM21857@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 16, 9:51, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Mark Crispin wrote: > > I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic > > equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. > > I'll have to agree. As has been said before, what do you think manufacturers do at the end of a production line? Yes, a certain amount of care is required, and certain things can't tolerate being soaked or being too hot or given too much mechanical agitation (stress). But how would you deal with a piece of equipment that was smoke damaged or had been left in the rain or had fallen in a river or had been infested with vermin or had a can of Coke spilled in it? I've had to deal with all of those and more over the last two decades, and washing is the only way. I don't advocate unneccessary cleaning, but sometimes it's required. > > It may be alright to (gently!) vaccuum away dust and deteriorated foam > > rubber, although a feather duster may be more appropriate. I would not > > risk anything else, and certainly not insert anything (including water or > > alcohol) under the plexiglass shield protecting the core. > > Vacuum cleaning (gently!) is about the only thing I'd recommend. Be careful about that. Allison's warning about ESD is quite real. Don't even think about a feather duster; at least, not if it's a synthetic one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 09:52:27 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (ajp166) References: <000401c18648$5bb9b8f0$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <15388.49979.384325.778162@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, ajp166 wrote: > The older large ferrite core is easier to work with though > much slower. The bigger cores produce a larger output > when they switch but the cycle times are in the > 3-5uS range. The later is helpful for demos as nothing > is too fast. I wonder if it would be possible (and practical) to use a microcontroller, perhaps a PIC, to act as a core controller. Use the A/D and D/A hardware to handle the drive and sense stuff, and do all the timing in firmware...making it easily tweakable. That would be something I'd be up for trying...if I can find a chunk of core of low enough density to trace the wiring in. There are some nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they are priced WAY too high in my opinion. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 11:02:00 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <15388.49979.384325.778162@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011216170200.29751.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> I think the real problem is putting controlled amounts of current through the wires. Because we probably don't have specs for any of these, the amount of current and time the current is on will have to be determined by experimentation. Then, keep in mind that the array is big so you have to make a lot of identical circuits for an array of any size. Then, you have to find the center of the "sweet spot" where at a certain temperature, cycle speed, write current, cycle speed, all of the cores work. I think this used to be called a "schmoo" chart? --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 16, ajp166 wrote: > > The older large ferrite core is easier to work > with though > > much slower. The bigger cores produce a larger > output > > when they switch but the cycle times are in the > > 3-5uS range. The later is helpful for demos as > nothing > > is too fast. > > I wonder if it would be possible (and practical) > to use a > microcontroller, perhaps a PIC, to act as a core > controller. Use the > A/D and D/A hardware to handle the drive and sense > stuff, and do all > the timing in firmware...making it easily tweakable. > > That would be something I'd be up for trying...if > I can find a chunk > of core of low enough density to trace the wiring > in. There are some > nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they > are priced WAY too > high in my opinion. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More > synthohol." --Lt. Worf __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 16 12:39:19 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <000401c18648$5bb9b8f0$82f19a8d@ajp166> <15388.49979.384325.778162@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <008c01c18660$f9558b80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > That would be something I'd be up for trying...if I can find a chunk > of core of low enough density to trace the wiring in. There are some > nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they are priced WAY too > high in my opinion. $35 is a good number to stick by. The MIT swap meet semiregularly offers various types at that number. A real small low dens one might be better at $20 but even those often sit at 35. eBay looks to me like $35 +- $15 most of the time. John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 11:02:40 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <004501c18654$fcab3ca0$82f19a8d@ajp166> > I wonder if it would be possible (and practical) to use a >microcontroller, perhaps a PIC, to act as a core controller. Use the >A/D and D/A hardware to handle the drive and sense stuff, and do all >the timing in firmware...making it easily tweakable. Not likely as the sense voltages are quite small and the slice time has to just right. > That would be something I'd be up for trying...if I can find a chunk >of core of low enough density to trace the wiring in. There are some >nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they are priced WAY too >high in my opinion. No need to trace, they are quite regular, you can ohm them. You still need core drivers, sense amps and a dozens of diodes for current steering. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 11:32:38 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (ajp166) References: <004501c18654$fcab3ca0$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <15388.55990.24346.669998@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, ajp166 wrote: > > I wonder if it would be possible (and practical) to use a > >microcontroller, perhaps a PIC, to act as a core controller. Use the > >A/D and D/A hardware to handle the drive and sense stuff, and do all > >the timing in firmware...making it easily tweakable. > > Not likely as the sense voltages are quite small and the slice time > has to just right. Well I wouldn't expect to connect it *directly* to the PIC...some analog jellybeans would seem appropriate. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 16 12:39:17 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <004501c18654$fcab3ca0$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <008b01c18660$f85b4d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > No need to trace, they are quite regular, you can ohm them. You still > need core drivers, sense amps and a dozens of diodes for current > steering. We were thinking what could a person do to see the output from just one core bit, not too much more than that... and then work up from there. John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 12:56:24 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <005601c18663$afd7bc00$82f19a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk > >After reading the core memory stuff I realized the what I was thinking >about was dynamic memory (16k chips) for a 2 mhz 8080 in byte. The >reason >I got confused was it used the split memory cycle read-write as core >memory. Core is one of the few destructive readout memories used. So every read has a following write to restore the data, often between data read there will be a modify cycle which means new data written back. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 13:20:17 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <005601c18663$afd7bc00$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C1CF3F1.C5A3AC92@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > > Core is one of the few destructive readout memories used. So every > read has a following write to restore the data, often between data > read there will be a modify cycle which means new data written back. I know that. That is why the early memory chips had separate in/out pins to emulate core memory. Everything nowadays tends to be 8 bits with tri-state I/O ( Grumbles here as he has a 12 bit computer and has to waste 4 bits out of 16 ) BTW - some say the best way to cook a fish is in the dishwasher. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Dec 16 13:51:15 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <005601c18663$afd7bc00$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk > > > >After reading the core memory stuff I realized the what I was thinking > >about was dynamic memory (16k chips) for a 2 mhz 8080 in byte. The > >reason > >I got confused was it used the split memory cycle read-write as core > >memory. > > > Core is one of the few destructive readout memories used. So every > read has a following write to restore the data, often between data > read there will be a modify cycle which means new data written back. > > Allison > > > DRAM (well at least 1 T DRAM) is destructive readout also, the regeneration logic is built into the chip though. Peter Wallace From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 12:58:43 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:06 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <005701c18663$b04d8840$82f19a8d@ajp166> From: Dave McGuire >> Not likely as the sense voltages are quite small and the slice time >> has to just right. > > Well I wouldn't expect to connect it *directly* to the PIC...some >analog jellybeans would seem appropriate. Look at the byte article and see why something like a PIC adds little to the task. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 13:50:09 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <007301c1866c$1a32a080$82f19a8d@ajp166> Suggestion, Pict the articles on the basic of historic design point like the Core article or some significant hardware or software. Usually that kind of article was a feature. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? >> Unfortunately these scans aren't from *my* bytes...my collection >> doesn't go back that far, as I was 7 years old in 1976...so I can't go >> scan more of 'em. :-( > >I guess I can pony up and put at least one jpegged BYTE article up >for people to see, perhaps one a month. I have no great ideas on >how to pick the titles, however. Some kind of democratic thing? > >John A. > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Dec 16 13:58:23 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: PDP-8/A limited function panel wiring? References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C1CFCDF.3050102@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi again. I realize I should repost my question under a differnt subject line after having tread off such an avalange of emails under the dishwasher and core memory subject. O.K. I had it all in the dishwasher, except for the PSU stuff with big transformers and capacitors and the memory boards. I removed everything, including the backplane board. I need to take some photos, that backplane is sure amazing from the back. Now its about to dry and next weekend I will reassemble and power up. Yea! However, there are a few more issues to resolve first. The little 16-pole ribbon cable that has DIL chip-like plug on both ends that go into a chip-socket. That plug is bent and pins are broken off. Seems like that happnes all the time. Do I have to and if so how can I replace this? This cable runs between the backplane and, I guess, the limited function front panel. Do I need this, is the limited function front panel needed at all? What's the function of the 16 lines, I assume - GND - LED 1 - LED 2 - LED 3 - SWITCH 1 A - SIWTCH 1 B - SWITCH 2 A - SWITCH 2 B - SWITCH 3 A - SWITCH 3 B remain 6 lines unaccounted for? Will it not run if I don't get that fixed? How can I fix it? I guess with some super- special crimp tool I could make one, but what if I don't have such tool? Get one? I know how to use a soldring iron, so would consider that. May be I should use a cheap dead chip just for the legs, I don't know. Thanks for your help. -Gunther PS: I opened up one of the core memory board-sandwiches and made a few photos. Amazing stuff. Will put those up on my web site soon. -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 14:25:04 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <007a01c18670$4fbadcf0$82f19a8d@ajp166> It takes quite a bit to read one bit (the same amount to read all the bits on one sense line). You need to in order: Select the specific word (or bit) and drive it with the X and Y lines, each will be 50% plus a tiny bit extra current needed to switch a bit. And yes that is a regulated current or wire melting may occur! Typically it's a pulse of several hundred milliamps. Then at the right time after the select pulse is applied you will see a big or smaller pulse on the sense line. the difference between a 1 or 0(zero) is the timing and the height of that pulse. That was the nasty item as both timing of the XY select pulse and the time to the read window are current, temperature and specific to the cores used. The resulting signal is quite small and is measured in tens of millivolts for a core that switched and maybe a millivolt for one that did not. Yes, the sense line does have a lot of noise! To do that again or write a 1/0 you need to reverse or leave the XYselect polarity. The inhibit line (for a 4 wire core mat ) can be the sense line for write (three wire mat). To write the opposite data you select the core via XY with enough current to flip the core, to not write that value you apply enough current of the reversed polarity to the inhibit line to reduce the field(from the XY selects) in the selected core to less than the half select value. The basic operation of reading implicity sets all cores in the word line to the same state. To write (a word) along a word line you reverse the currents and also apply inhibit current on a bit by bit basis. The end result is some cores in the word flip (reverse the magnetic field) and those inhibited do not. Now... if you want simpler try this... Wind about 20 turns of wire on a nail (iron, or better yet steel). Wind another 20 turns. We use a lot of wire to get a BIG signal. Now if you hook a simple 1-3V DC meter to one winding and then hook the other winding to say a 1.5V battery you should see the meter pulse (basic transformer action). If you interupt the connection (off on off) you will see another pulse of differing polarity (needle will go the other way for a moment). Do that a few times to note the reaction and then reverse the battery and repeat. When you do that you will not the meter action indicates a bigger pulse the first time and back to like before if you do it again. Now the majik of core. When you magnitize something like that the nail/washer/core takes a magnetic polarity and holds it. If you reverse that magnetizing field you not only get the field but also the change in magnetic polarity. That change significantly greater. The other peice of majik is that while you didn't measure it in that simple rig the current required to magnetize the nail in the opposite direction is greater than if the magnetic field in the in the nail was random(zero). This is the characteristic called hysteresis, IE: to change a field takes more than the amount needed to maintain or initially estabilish it. I might have fluffed the grammer and spelling in my hurry to write this but, thats about it. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? >> No need to trace, they are quite regular, you can ohm them. You still >> need core drivers, sense amps and a dozens of diodes for current >> steering. > >We were thinking what could a person do to see the output from >just one core bit, not too much more than that... and then work up >from there. > >John A. > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 14:43:06 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <008801c18672$6c2df730$82f19a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >I know that. That is why the early memory chips had separate in/out pins >to emulate core memory. Everything nowadays tends to be 8 bits with >tri-state That might have been a factor but not a requirement. The reason back then was it simplified the timing and construction of the chip. >I/O ( Grumbles here as he has a 12 bit computer and has to waste 4 bits >out of 16 ) >BTW - some say the best way to cook a fish is in the dishwasher. Use four bit wide cache parts then. Or if it's EPROM do three bytes wide and select the odd(right 12 bits) or even half(left 12bits). There are other schemes to reuse loose bits! Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Dec 15 10:51:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Color Coding, A/C (Mains) Leads, USA ONLY, Redux Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Two parallel blades is 120V 15A. One perpendicular to the other is > (usually!) 120V 20A, but it could be a 250V plug, too. The 120V 20A plug > can be adjusted to fit a 15A recep by the judicious(sp?) application of a > pair of pliers... No, I've never done such a dangerous thing! -_^ Just > remember, too close to the body of the plug and it'll shear off, too far out > and it won't insert fully into the plug. Sorry I wasn't clear- plug matches the outlet it goes into, no need to "re-engineer"... -dq From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sat Dec 15 05:14:51 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <20011215024539.H79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <00e501c18559$b93dc060$b2469280@y5f3q8> > > > I'd also include Geeks who program any machine that could accidentally > > kill someone > > That has been documented. I believe the machine in question was called > the Thorac and it irradiated two people to death. I'm too sleepy to > search on Google right now or I'd provide more information. I watched this, too. Seems if they edited one blank, went down and filled in another, then went back up and changes the prevoius blank, it would ignore the intensity settings and jsut go straight to glow-in-the-dark. Hell of a way to buy it. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp Bob From jpdavis at gorge.net Sat Dec 15 05:40:18 2001 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net> IMHO: All software development should be performed as such: 1) Requirements - what should it do, and not do. Spin this till everybody signs off. 2) Prelim design - Ok, a rough outline of the design, data structures and control/data flow defined here. 3) Detailed design - Define all the modules and their function, break it down. 4) Test plan - integrate testing into detailed design, make it unit testable. a unit is somthing that has input and output and side effects, like a function. 5) Finally, coding - build modules in parallel with test code. 6) Unit testing - verify that modules comply with detailed design. 7) Integration testing - hook it all together, make sure it works, apply test plan developed in step 4 for fully integrated aplication. Do 1-3 until marketing decides what they want,4-7 until you find no errors. For safety critical, you should /have to perform statement and decision coverage in step 6 and 7 and the detailed design should have a one-to-one corespondence with the detailed design document. Jim Davis. "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > > > I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape their way into > > > a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really write code > > > *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree and don't > > > think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. > > > > > > But . . . > > > > > > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . > > > > Ok, what does it take to really write code and solve programs? > > (Unlicensed programer/coder here ). Writing code is easy... writing the > > doc's that is another story. I tend to favor the hardware side, but they > > don't make TTL machines like the PDP-8E or transistor ones like the > > PDP8/S. > > I'm not sure if geeks should be licensed, but there are certainly instances > when their output should be monitored closely. Geeks who program voting > machines, for example. (I think that voting machine software should be > open source and available from the voting machine. Every other civilized > country gets by with pencil and paper and big bunches of people doing the > counting. I need to trust that an embedded systems programmer doesn't have > strong enough political beliefs that they would try to rig an election. > It gets even worse when you need to believe that people (read Microsoft) > coding the OS of the damn things don't have any interest in the outcome of > elections.) > > I'd also include Geeks who program any machine that could accidentally > kill someone (for example airplanes) and Geeks who code for billion > dollar space hardware. > > Eric From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 09:46:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net> Message-ID: <006b01c1857f$ae779d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:40 AM Subject: Re: "Geeks" and licensing > IMHO: All software development should be performed as such: > > 1) Requirements - what should it do, and not do. Spin this till > everybody signs off. > 2) Prelim design - Ok, a rough outline of the design, data > structures and control/data flow defined here. > 3) Detailed design - Define all the modules and their function, > break it down. > 4) Test plan - integrate testing into detailed design, make it unit > testable. A unit is somthing that has input and output and side > effects, like a function. > 5) Finally, coding - build modules in parallel with test code. > 6) Unit testing - verify that modules comply with detailed design. > 7) Integration testing - hook it all together, make sure it works, apply > test plan developed in step 4 for fully integrated aplication. > > Do 1-3 until marketing decides what they want,4-7 until you find no > errors. > A couple of things have been left out. (a) make certain that all deliverable code has NOTHING that's not absolutely required: not a superfluous comment, not an extra semicolon. (b) make certain that all comments in the source have been kept current with the code as it changes. Too many times, v117.03 has comments left from rev 000.01. (c) test the model before you write the code. Make certain that every combination of inputs vs content produces predictable results, no matter how "impossible" the combination may appear to be. (d) fire anyone who passes on a document with any form of error in it, including spelling, punctuation, etc. That's as good a marker as anything as to how well they've done their job. > For safety critical, you should /have to perform statement and decision > coverage in > step 6 and 7 and the detailed design should have a one-to-one > corespondence > with the detailed design document. > Jim Davis. > > "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > > > > > I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape their way into > > > > a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really write code > > > > *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree and don't > > > > think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. > > > > > > > > But . . . > > > > > > > > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . > > > > > > Ok, what does it take to really write code and solve programs? > > > (Unlicensed programer/coder here ). Writing code is easy... writing the > > > doc's that is another story. I tend to favor the hardware side, but they > > > don't make TTL machines like the PDP-8E or transistor ones like the > > > PDP8/S. > > > > I'm not sure if geeks should be licensed, but there are certainly instances > > when their output should be monitored closely. Geeks who program voting > > machines, for example. (I think that voting machine software should be > > open source and available from the voting machine. Every other civilized > > country gets by with pencil and paper and big bunches of people doing the > > counting. I need to trust that an embedded systems programmer doesn't have > > strong enough political beliefs that they would try to rig an election. > > It gets even worse when you need to believe that people (read Microsoft) > > coding the OS of the damn things don't have any interest in the outcome of > > elections.) > > > > I'd also include Geeks who program any machine that could accidentally > > kill someone (for example airplanes) and Geeks who code for billion > > dollar space hardware. > > > > Eric > > From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 15 10:50:47 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net> Message-ID: <20011215102631.X83594-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jim Davis wrote: > IMHO: All software development should be performed as such: > > 1) Requirements - what should it do, and not do. Spin this till > everybody signs off. > 2) Prelim design - Ok, a rough outline of the design, data structures > and control/data flow defined here. > 3) Detailed design - Define all the modules and their function, break it > down. > 4) Test plan - integrate testing into detailed design, make it unit > testable. a unit is somthing that has input and output and side > effects, like a function. > 5) Finally, coding - build modules in parallel with test code. > 6) Unit testing - verify that modules comply with detailed design. > 7) Integration testing - hook it all together, make sure it works, apply > test plan developed in step 4 for fully integrated aplication. > > Do 1-3 until marketing decides what they want,4-7 until you find no > errors. And possibly add some planning where you use historical data and basic statistics to figure out how big the product will likely be, how long it will take, and what resources need to be allocated to complete it. > For safety critical, you should /have to perform statement and > decision coverage in step 6 and 7 and the detailed design should have > a one-to-one corespondence with the detailed design document. Jim > Davis. The software process course I just got out of also heavily pushed peer review of designs and code as a way to filter out defects before testing. These have their benefits, but I remain unconvinced of their status as the great panacea of software engineering that the course touted them as. For a little bit of on-topic goodness, what is the group's opinion on the trend of software engineering quality starting from ancient times? Have we improved (practially, not academically) or worsened? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 11:06:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <20011215102631.X83594-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <000d01c1858a$d647df20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Until the Japanese started programming "in the large," the terms "software" and "engineering" were pretty much mutually exclusive after 1965. Until the Nipponese brought in a 15-Million-line software task within schedule and under budget, nobody believed it could be done. It was another case of the Japanese simply doing what the Americans had, for two decades, told everyone was the right way to do it, though. ... nothing new ... just do it right. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: Re: "Geeks" and licensing > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jim Davis wrote: > > > IMHO: All software development should be performed as such: > > > > 1) Requirements - what should it do, and not do. Spin this till > > everybody signs off. > > 2) Prelim design - Ok, a rough outline of the design, data structures > > and control/data flow defined here. > > 3) Detailed design - Define all the modules and their function, break it > > down. > > 4) Test plan - integrate testing into detailed design, make it unit > > testable. a unit is somthing that has input and output and side > > effects, like a function. > > 5) Finally, coding - build modules in parallel with test code. > > 6) Unit testing - verify that modules comply with detailed design. > > 7) Integration testing - hook it all together, make sure it works, apply > > test plan developed in step 4 for fully integrated aplication. > > > > Do 1-3 until marketing decides what they want,4-7 until you find no > > errors. > > And possibly add some planning where you use historical data and basic > statistics to figure out how big the product will likely be, how long it > will take, and what resources need to be allocated to complete it. > > > For safety critical, you should /have to perform statement and > > decision coverage in step 6 and 7 and the detailed design should have > > a one-to-one corespondence with the detailed design document. Jim > > Davis. > > The software process course I just got out of also heavily pushed peer > review of designs and code as a way to filter out defects before testing. > These have their benefits, but I remain unconvinced of their status as the > great panacea of software engineering that the course touted them as. > > For a little bit of on-topic goodness, what is the group's opinion on the > trend of software engineering quality starting from ancient times? Have > we improved (practially, not academically) or worsened? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Dec 15 13:17:26 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <20011215102631.X83594-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jim Davis wrote: > IMHO: All software development should be performed as such: > > 1) Requirements - what should it do, and not do. Spin this till > everybody signs off. > 2) Prelim design - Ok, a rough outline of the design, data structures > and control/data flow defined here. > 3) Detailed design - Define all the modules and their function, break it > down. > 4) Test plan - integrate testing into detailed design, make it unit > testable. a unit is somthing that has input and output and side > effects, like a function. > 5) Finally, coding - build modules in parallel with test code. > 6) Unit testing - verify that modules comply with detailed design. > 7) Integration testing - hook it all together, make sure it works, apply > test plan developed in step 4 for fully integrated aplication. > > Do 1-3 until marketing decides what they want,4-7 until you find no > errors. Ah, creationism (see the Jargon Dictionary if you're not familiar with the term). What is describe is all very textbook. That, then begs the question, "why is it that software isn't, in general, done in this fashion?". The answer is found in step one: the assumption that innovative hunks of software can be fully specified in advanced. For software that is truly innovative this is empirically very rarely the case, as what the customer _thinks_ they want is frequently not what they end up wanting/needing in the end. Trotting out signed-off specs in no way improves the situation. In practice the solution is to accept the fact that specs, no matter how much they are labored over, are for most efforts soft, and then describe mechanism to deal with uncertainty as part of the development process. Rapid prototype, stepwise refinement, the understanding that one cannot test their way to correctness and a willingness to throw at least one implementation completely away, coupled with small, agile teams that work with an active user community empirically produce more correct results in less time that alternative techniques. Not like any of this is new. Brooks described this eons ago in _The Mythical Man Month_... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:51 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: "Geeks" and licensing And possibly add some planning where you use historical data and basic statistics to figure out how big the product will likely be, how long it will take, and what resources need to be allocated to complete it. > For safety critical, you should /have to perform statement and > decision coverage in step 6 and 7 and the detailed design should have > a one-to-one corespondence with the detailed design document. Jim > Davis. The software process course I just got out of also heavily pushed peer review of designs and code as a way to filter out defects before testing. These have their benefits, but I remain unconvinced of their status as the great panacea of software engineering that the course touted them as. For a little bit of on-topic goodness, what is the group's opinion on the trend of software engineering quality starting from ancient times? Have we improved (practially, not academically) or worsened? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 15 19:25:48 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <20011215102631.X83594-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c185d4$6fd9f300$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >For a little bit of on-topic goodness, what is the group's opinion on the >trend of software engineering quality starting from ancient times? Have >we improved (practially, not academically) or worsened? For me there was an inflection around 1990. Before that time there were some heroic efforts that yielded some amazing products, clear documentation, 100% predictable operation. Many of these products tended to sell in the $10K to $80K range. After that time (now) we have the 'acceptable level of bugs' era with product prices more like $0.1K to $1K, but then companies having to run TCO calculations, with all the new problems. 1991 was the first time I heard someone argue that making 100% Bug-Free code was Impossible. Now, right at the inflection point came the incredible mass market success of MS Wind. Internally, I tend to see this it as the Sept11 of software engineering. There was a research topic a while back called 'Automatic Program Verification', sort of a mathematically based test case compiler. I have been away from academia for too long. I wonder how that movement went. John A. From bpope at wordstock.com Sat Dec 15 20:44:36 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: OT: 9/11 : Re: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <00cc01c185d4$6fd9f300$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Dec 15, 01 08:25:48 pm Message-ID: <200112160244.VAA26096@wordstock.com> > Now, right at the inflection point came the incredible mass market > success of MS Wind. Internally, I tend to see this it as the Sept11 WOW...! This is the first time I have seen 9/11 used to portray another *really* bad event happening... The first stage of this term being incorporated into our language? > of software engineering. Bryan P.S. But this could be a good thing - it help us to remember the event everytime it is used. From jss at subatomix.com Sun Dec 16 01:29:53 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: OT: 9/11 : Re: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <200112160244.VAA26096@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20011216012829.M84783-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Now, right at the inflection point came the incredible mass market > > success of MS Wind. Internally, I tend to see this it as the Sept11 > > WOW...! This is the first time I have seen 9/11 used to portray > another *really* bad event happening... The first stage of this term > being incorporated into our language? I wonder if they'll change the phone number for 911? Sorry, I could not resist! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 13:25:37 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: Re: "Geeks" and licensing (Jim Davis) References: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net> Message-ID: <15387.41905.814206.642299@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, Jim Davis wrote: > IMHO: All software development should be performed as such: > > 1) Requirements - what should it do, and not do. Spin this till > everybody > signs off. > 2) Prelim design - Ok, a rough outline of the design, data structures > and control/data flow defined here. > 3) Detailed design - Define all the modules and their function, break it > down. > 4) Test plan - integrate testing into detailed design, make it unit > testable. > a unit is somthing that has input and output and side effects, like a > function. > 5) Finally, coding - build modules in parallel with test code. > 6) Unit testing - verify that modules comply with detailed design. > 7) Integration testing - hook it all together, make sure it works, apply > test plan developed in step 4 for fully integrated aplication. > > Do 1-3 until marketing decides what they want,4-7 until you find no > errors. > > For safety critical, you should /have to perform statement and decision > coverage in > step 6 and 7 and the detailed design should have a one-to-one > corespondence > with the detailed design document. Hmm, that procedure "reads" nice, but it sounds like more meetings than actual work. But then I've been a software developer for about twelve years, and nobody that I've worked with can figure out how I can blow off all the meetings and not get fired...it's because I end up writing all the code that the rest of the developers are talking about in their meetings, WHILE they're in their meetings, and by the time they're doing screwing around, the code is running. Procedures are nice, but they can be taken too far. Goal-orientation is better. (While I'll freely admit that this approach simply doesn't work for multi-million line applications, I should state that I generally work on applications of less than one million lines, but generally more than 100,000. I further state that my methods should probably NOT be used in life-critical applications...more than two eyes need to look at that stuff, no matter what.) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 21:13:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu><3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net> <15387.41905.814206.642299@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <002a01c185df$a6832ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, perhaps the reason for all the meetings and other work you find uninteresting is that it's necessary to arrive at a firm specification for what you have to build before you go off and build it. Since the coding, compiling, and debugging only represent about 5% of the task, the bulk of the work has to happen sometime, and that's what the "other" stuff is. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 12:25 PM Subject: Re: "Geeks" and licensing > On December 15, Jim Davis wrote: > > IMHO: All software development should be performed as such: > > > > 1) Requirements - what should it do, and not do. Spin this till > > everybody > > signs off. > > 2) Prelim design - Ok, a rough outline of the design, data structures > > and control/data flow defined here. > > 3) Detailed design - Define all the modules and their function, break it > > down. > > 4) Test plan - integrate testing into detailed design, make it unit > > testable. > > a unit is somthing that has input and output and side effects, like a > > function. > > 5) Finally, coding - build modules in parallel with test code. > > 6) Unit testing - verify that modules comply with detailed design. > > 7) Integration testing - hook it all together, make sure it works, apply > > test plan developed in step 4 for fully integrated aplication. > > > > Do 1-3 until marketing decides what they want,4-7 until you find no > > errors. > > > > For safety critical, you should /have to perform statement and decision > > coverage in > > step 6 and 7 and the detailed design should have a one-to-one > > corespondence > > with the detailed design document. > > Hmm, that procedure "reads" nice, but it sounds like more meetings > than actual work. But then I've been a software developer for about > twelve years, and nobody that I've worked with can figure out how I > can blow off all the meetings and not get fired...it's because I end > up writing all the code that the rest of the developers are talking > about in their meetings, WHILE they're in their meetings, and by the > time they're doing screwing around, the code is running. > > Procedures are nice, but they can be taken too far. Goal-orientation > is better. > > (While I'll freely admit that this approach simply doesn't work for > multi-million line applications, I should state that I generally work > on applications of less than one million lines, but generally more > than 100,000. I further state that my methods should probably NOT be > used in life-critical applications...more than two eyes need to look > at that stuff, no matter what.) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 23:25:39 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: Re: "Geeks" and licensing (Richard Erlacher) References: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net> <15387.41905.814206.642299@phaduka.neurotica.com> <002a01c185df$a6832ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15388.12371.624211.702208@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, perhaps the reason for all the meetings and other work you find > uninteresting is that it's necessary to arrive at a firm specification for what > you have to build before you go off and build it. Since the coding, compiling, > and debugging only represent about 5% of the task, the bulk of the work has to > happen sometime, and that's what the "other" stuff is. Some documentation and speficiation has to happen, sure. But most of the industry seems to have lost sight of the fact that these are *overhead tasks* that are secondary to the job of *building something*. It gives suits a reason to take home a paycheck...they can shuffle paperwork and Powerpoint bullshit all they want; it rarely contributes to the finish product. It's not an issue of my finding it "uninteresting"...I write code. That's what I do best. If I'm doing something other than writing code, I'm likely wasting my time...or worse, someone else's...because if I'm not writing code I'm probaby doing something I'm not particularly good at. I'm not trying to be argumentative here...though it may sound that way, please don't take it as such. Again I will qualify my statements as pertaining to sub-million-line development projects, not huge multi-million line behemoths. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 13:13:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu><3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net><15387.41905.814206.642299@phaduka.neurotica.com><002a01c185df$a6832ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15388.12371.624211.702208@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <005001c18665$ca56f580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You're right, and it's a sad fact, but, though they're perhaps secondary to "building something," they're not secondary to building something right. If everyone involved in a product development cycle were appropriately interested in and dedicated to project success, the meetings would run more smoothly. However, I'm reminded of a development project, a blatant example of what happens instead of "doing the job right," that I ran into in the aerospace industry. We had a task to develop a small lightweight flight data recorder for use on the 1553 Bus on the space shuttle. The agreed-upon and signed-off spec called for a WORM drive, on the 5-1/4" form factor that they normally used, with a power budget of about 26 watts and a weight allocation of <4.5 pounds (I'm not certain of this). After inquiring about spec's from the vendors, whose rep's had stood up in meetings when the spec's were being signed off, I ultimately learned that not one of the manufacturers who had claimed to "have" a product that met the requirement that the WORM drive worked on the 1553 bus (a redundant avionics serial bus used in relatively advanced flight equipment) actually had even a functional prototype, or even a realistic "objective" specification for such a device. They had all essentially lied in the meetings, assuming that some "arrangement" could be reached at a later date so their product would be chosen over one of their competitors' offerings. I learned that Cherokee Electronics, a wholly owned subsidiary of Lockheed Electronics was shipping WORM drives to Lockheed for use in their fighter aircraft. In fact, I learned quite a few things that suggested the entire flight electronics industry was in a considerable disarray. Ultimately, I decided to build a bridge between SCSI which would support the drives, to Mil-STD-1553, which was the required hardware interface that the host software expected to use. Unfortunately, another individual, more strategically placed, in a political sense, had, on a previous, albeit not space-flight oriented, flight system development project, successfullyused a 75-pound Honeywell flight data recorder, that used 250 watts or so, and felt that was what should be used. As it turned out, I ended up leaving the project, he got the larger recorder spliced in, though not working, NASA disqualified Martin Marietta from this phase of the project because they totally overshot power and weight requirements and wouldn't give ground, not having a suitable alternative, and, the project was aborted. I guess I was the only one who really cared that the firmly recorded and contracted spec's were met. I'd say that those meetings, do more than give the suits a reason to draw a paycheck, though I'd certainly agree it looks that way. I don't know about the "Powerpoint Bull***t", since it's intended to facilitate "meeting material" generation, but it is worth noting that PowerPoint contains a "bulls**t generator" just to fill the white space before an outline is fleshed-out. It's noteworthy that one of the problems in the industry is that those spec's that are developed in the meetings are often ignored, at least somewhat, by the folks who write code or develop hardware. As a consequence, the success/failure and low/high quality of the end product is on the folks who write the code rather than on the managers who generate those spec's. If managers, who get the credit for the successes, were required by the simple fact that their subordinates follow their instructions instead of doing things irrelevant to the task, which is to follow the spec's whether they work or not, the product development cycle would ultimately be worked out to where it succeeds. Instead, the hipshooting cowboys in the software department end up fighting over the credit for successes and blaming the failures on those in absentia. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:25 PM Subject: Re: "Geeks" and licensing > On December 15, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Well, perhaps the reason for all the meetings and other work you find > > uninteresting is that it's necessary to arrive at a firm specification for what > > you have to build before you go off and build it. Since the coding, compiling, > > and debugging only represent about 5% of the task, the bulk of the work has to > > happen sometime, and that's what the "other" stuff is. > > Some documentation and spefication has to happen, sure. But most > of the industry seems to have lost sight of the fact that these are > *overhead tasks* that are secondary to the job of *building > something*. It gives suits a reason to take home a paycheck...they > can shuffle paperwork and Powerpoint bullshit all they want; it > rarely contributes to the finished product. > I don't agree that firmly establishing what has to be done is "secondary" to the job of doing it. > > It's not an issue of my finding it "uninteresting"...I write code. > That's what I do best. If I'm doing something other than writing > code, I'm likely wasting my time...or worse, someone else's...because > if I'm not writing code I'm probaby doing something I'm not > particularly good at. > If you're a coder, your job is to follow the spec's you're given. You're not paid to invent alternative ways to do things, but, rather, to implement, and precisely so, the specifications you're given an NOTHING else. > > I'm not trying to be argumentative here...though it may sound that > way, please don't take it as such. > I'm not that easily offended. Argument is a useful tool in establishing the truth, BTW. It's just that you have to ensure your arguments aren't fallacious or even completely irrelevant to the point. > > Again I will qualify my statements as pertaining to sub-million-line > development projects, not huge multi-million line behemoths. > It's quite true that the problems in programming-in-the-large there are problems not encountered in small programs. Requirements specification is required, even if there's only one line of code, though. > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 15 10:33:32 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <20011215023529.C79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3C1B7B5C.7984F26F@jetnet.ab.ca> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > There's a big difference between writing code to solve problems and being > a software engineer. Designing, coding, and compiling is only 40% of the > battle. Hopefully you're also spending some time planning and testing. > Also, don't forget the the heaping mounds of beaurocracy that you must put > up with, whether in the name of a software process or for just plain > corporate BS. You mean like "If we needed it yesterday I'll ask for it tomorrow" -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 21:06:57 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <20011215023529.C79965-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3C1B7B5C.7984F26F@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001401c185de$b97570c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Based on the investment in time, I'd say coding, compiling, and debugging are <%5 of the job, and I'm referring to completed programs which, in every conceivable way, adhere to the specification to which they were designed completely to the extent that it is humanly, and with the aid of countless machines, possible to verify. The documentation, which occurs before and after takes up the remainder of the time. Unfortunately that's what normally is cut first, and the coding suffers as a result, since the requirements aren't in written form. Requirements are the set of things which the code must do, and other than which the code must NOT do. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: Re: "Geeks" and licensing > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > There's a big difference between writing code to solve problems and being > > a software engineer. Designing, coding, and compiling is only 40% of the > > battle. Hopefully you're also spending some time planning and testing. > > Also, don't forget the the heaping mounds of beaurocracy that you must put > > up with, whether in the name of a software process or for just plain > > corporate BS. > You mean like "If we needed it yesterday I'll ask for it tomorrow" > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 15 13:31:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <20011215051251.JZSK12705.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Dec 15, 1 00:10:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3156 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/971d3fc5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 15 14:58:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Dec 14, 1 10:42:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 799 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/18d86092/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 05:28:37 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels" (Dec 14, 16:16) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10112151128.ZM20203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 14, 16:16, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > In particular, do any of you have familiarity with > systems that flash the on or power light as an > indicattor, sopecifiecally, of a power supply > problem? The only thing I can think of that's *designed* to do something like that is an SGI Indy; if you power one up and it can't even run the the code in the PROM, it flashes the power light (which is a two-colour LED). The usual cause id that there's no (recognisable) RAM at all in it. Probably not relevant to a PR1ME. Even less relevant, but in the same vein, is an Acorn Archimedes. If it can't boot, and can't set up the display, it flashes a 4-bit fault code on the floppy access LED. However, the code is RISC OS-specific. > Would anyone venture what a 2 Hz flash rate on the ON > LED of a Prime might mean? If it's a short "on" and a long "off", it might be a power supply that is starting up , detecting a problem, and shutting off again. And retrying, and ... Is there any accompanying, possibly fairly quiet, whistle/buzz/click that occurs at the same rate? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 08:06:18 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: <10112151128.ZM20203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <10112151128.ZM20203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >On Dec 14, 16:16, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >> In particular, do any of you have familiarity with >> systems that flash the on or power light as an >> indicattor, sopecifiecally, of a power supply >> problem? > >The only thing I can think of that's *designed* to do something like that >is an SGI Indy; if you power one up and it can't even run the the code in >the PROM, it flashes the power light (which is a two-colour LED). The >usual cause id that there's no (recognisable) RAM at all in it. Probably >not relevant to a PR1ME. Amiga's do it as well when the machine GURU's, just before the red error message appears. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From matt at knm.yi.org Sat Dec 15 13:49:26 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: <10112151128.ZM20203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Hi, On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 14, 16:16, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > In particular, do any of you have familiarity with > > systems that flash the on or power light as an > > indicattor, sopecifiecally, of a power supply > > problem? > > The only thing I can think of that's *designed* to do something like that > is an SGI Indy; if you power one up and it can't even run the the code in > the PROM, it flashes the power light (which is a two-colour LED). The > usual cause id that there's no (recognisable) RAM at all in it. Probably > not relevant to a PR1ME. >From what I've noticed, the SparcStation 1 flashes it's power LED when doing a selftest, but I'm not near the box, so I can't check :&) And as Jeff said - Amigas flash the power LED. The flash is between low and high intensity, and it's actually an indication of the status of the audio filter :&) IIRC, bright is off and dimmer is on. And yes, it flashes before you get a Guru Meditation (kickstart 1.3 and below) or Software Failure (kickstart 2+). Gives you a chance to press right mouse button and fire up ROMwhack :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 15:04:33 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: Matt London "Re: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels" (Dec 15, 19:49) References: Message-ID: <10112152104.ZM20810@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 19:49, Matt London wrote: > >From what I've noticed, the SparcStation 1 flashes it's power LED when > doing a selftest, but I'm not near the box, so I can't check :&) > > And as Jeff said - Amigas flash the power LED. So they do. I should have remembered that, since I have one of each in this room! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 18:11:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >And as Jeff said - Amigas flash the power LED. The flash is between low >and high intensity, and it's actually an indication of the status of the >audio filter :&) IIRC, bright is off and dimmer is on. And yes, it flashes >before you get a Guru Meditation (kickstart 1.3 and below) or Software >Failure (kickstart 2+). Gives you a chance to press right mouse button and >fire up ROMwhack :&) I knew that while running some applications such as GMPlay that the LED would dim but I was never sure why. That's a good thing to know. You're right though that it's not a GURU for KS 2+, but a software failure. I tend to describe any error which brings up the red box error as a GURU though. It gives you little option other than pressing the mouse button and rebooting. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 15 15:07:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: <10112151128.ZM20203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 15, 1 11:28:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/e652f512/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Dec 15 13:09:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B60@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Dec 14, 16:16, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > In particular, do any of you have familiarity with > > systems that flash the on or power light as an > > indicattor, sopecifiecally, of a power supply > > problem? > > The only thing I can think of that's *designed* to do something like that > is an SGI Indy; if you power one up and it can't even run the the code in > the PROM, it flashes the power light (which is a two-colour LED). The > usual cause id that there's no (recognisable) RAM at all in it. Probably > not relevant to a PR1ME. No, I'm afraid you may have hit it on the head, and it's been the direction I've been leaning, that the microcode ROMs may have fried, but that just blows my mind. Tonight, I'll set up the PC that's got my ROM burner/reader, and read each one (if the ROMs aren't too large a size for my Needham unit). I'm assuming I'll see all 00s or all FFs (or maybe something like FEs) if they're blown; been a long time since I've looked at popped ROMs... About the only other possibility is that the backplane got cooked, but it looks fine... -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 13:29:35 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: RE: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B60@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15387.42143.944267.171861@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > No, I'm afraid you may have hit it on the head, and it's been the > direction I've been leaning, that the microcode ROMs may have > fried, but that just blows my mind. Tonight, I'll set up the No, Doug...the microcode ROMs being fried should blow the PR1ME's mind, not yours. ;) (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) > PC that's got my ROM burner/reader, and read each one (if the > ROMs aren't too large a size for my Needham unit). I'm assuming > I'll see all 00s or all FFs (or maybe something like FEs) if > they're blown; been a long time since I've looked at popped > ROMs... What kind of ROMs does it use? Another possibility might be to find someone with the same model of PR1ME (how rare are they?) and checksum the ROMs & compare them...most PROM burners will generate checksums, but now that I think of it, PROM burner manufacturers have yet to standardize on a checksumming algorithm so it'd probably be useless unless they're summed with the same make/model of burner. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 15:09:47 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "RE: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels" (Dec 15, 14:29) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B60@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <15387.42143.944267.171861@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10112152109.ZM20819@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 14:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > What kind of ROMs does it use? Another possibility might be to find > someone with the same model of PR1ME (how rare are they?) and checksum > the ROMs & compare them...most PROM burners will generate checksums, > but now that I think of it, PROM burner manufacturers have yet to > standardize on a checksumming algorithm so it'd probably be useless > unless they're summed with the same make/model of burner. :-( Actually, I think that's a good suggestion, if you can find someone with the same ROMs. In my experience, most programmers actually do use the same algorithm -- one of the common CRCs. At least, all three programmers I regularly use do, and the checksums match the ones printed on SGI ROMs and a few other ROMs I have that have printed checksums. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 15:18:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: Re: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels (Pete Turnbull) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B60@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <15387.42143.944267.171861@phaduka.neurotica.com> <10112152109.ZM20819@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15387.48666.285448.443343@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Actually, I think that's a good suggestion, if you can find someone with > the same ROMs. In my experience, most programmers actually do use the same > algorithm -- one of the common CRCs. At least, all three programmers I > regularly use do, and the checksums match the ones printed on SGI ROMs and > a few other ROMs I have that have printed checksums. Hmm..lucky. ;) My Data-I/O 2900, Heath 4801, and printed checksums on my SGI I2's ROMs don't match. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 15 14:58:43 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels" (Dec 15, 14:09) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B60@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10112152058.ZM20802@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 15, 14:09, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > On Dec 14, 16:16, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > In particular, do any of you have familiarity with > > > systems that flash the on or power light as an > > > indicattor, sopecifiecally, of a power supply > > > problem? > > > > The only thing I can think of that's *designed* to do something like that > > is an SGI Indy; if you power one up and it can't even run the the code in > > the PROM, it flashes the power light (which is a two-colour LED). The > > usual cause id that there's no (recognisable) RAM at all in it. Probably > > not relevant to a PR1ME. > > No, I'm afraid you may have hit it on the head, and it's been the > direction I've been leaning, that the microcode ROMs may have > fried, but that just blows my mind. Possible, of course, but in the case of an Indy, the processor and PSU are working, and it gets only as far as the "I think, therefore I am a processor; I wonder if I have any memory" test in the PROM, and then executes a loop which controls the LED in the PSU if there's no RAM. At least, that's what I believe; I've not seen a detailed description of the PROM startup. I suppose your problem may be something similar, in that the CPU is running but can't do anyting useful because either it's crippled or some other part of the system is disfuntional. Does the CPU control the power supply LED(s), like it does in an Indy? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mhstein at usa.net Sat Dec 15 09:20:32 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? Message-ID: <01C18552.451374C0@mse-d03> Where were you a few years ago when I was looking for a home for my Burroughs software & manuals (didn't run across this list at the time though). After 10 years or so programming these babies (L/TC/B80&90) I'd accumulated pretty well every piece of firmware, utility & app software there was, but then (as now) there wasn't much interest in what most people (unfairly, in my biased opinion) derided as "just" an accounting machine (you haven't lived 'till you've played Lunar Lander with a golfball printer...) Unlike the mainframes, these machines were generally sold outright & therefore scrapped outside of Burroughs, so there were lots of them around. Finally sold the hard disk carts to a rebuilder, recycled the floppies & tossed the mylar tapes & manuals. HOWEVER, I do still have an electrical parts catalogue from 1972, a little early for the B80, but might have some of those chips from the TC listed; if you're interested, send me a couple of part numbers off list & I'll see if they're listed and it's worth while scanning it for ya. If size vs computing power were a criterion, there wouldn't be very many old mainframes in Sridhar's collection... And yes, rugged indeed; extremely reliable, aside from the occasional head crash. Alas, many of them were disembowelled & ended up as desks or workbenches. As mentioned elsewhere, I also still have a digital cassette drive & tapes with who knows what on them (for the L/TC's), as well as a TD700 flat- screen display unit & controller for the B80, if anybody's interested. mike ----------------Original Message----------------- Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:44:21 +0100 From: "Sipke de Wal" Subject: Re: Burroughs - any information? I did obtain about 5 TC5500 consoles and a B80 back in the '80. They were rather large for their computing power and no software was obtainable so I scrapped them. I still have a couple of kilo's TTL-chips from them, with their own Burroughs legacy partnumbers. Very rugged design though! Maybe you could get some old "B" hardeware but software was out of the question. Sipke de Wal From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Dec 15 16:34:18 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? References: <01C18552.451374C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <01af01c185b8$a258f4a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Ahhh, I'm touched by caring love ..................;=) And I must admit I was rather fond of those machines back in 1985 ... 1986..... but I'd just laid my hand on some even bigger hardware so something had to go .... In my current housing there wouldn't even remotely be enough room. I do have a kinda database that translates "B" numbers to 74xx numbers as far as the TTL goes. Problem It's somewhere on one of my 8" CP/M disks. But if I really need them I pull out my old Grundy and start swapping disks (wonder if they still contain anything though) Fortunatly most are still in the right stash along with other 74xx stuff. Internet would have come in handy in those times but for me that was to start only about 9 years later ................... Thanx for the reaction anyway Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: M H Stein To: 'ClassicComputers' Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Burroughs - any information? > Where were you a few years ago when I was looking > for a home for my Burroughs software & manuals (didn't > run across this list at the time though). After 10 years > or so programming these babies (L/TC/B80&90) I'd > accumulated pretty well every piece of firmware, utility > & app software there was, but then (as now) there wasn't > much interest in what most people (unfairly, in my biased > opinion) derided as "just" an accounting machine (you > haven't lived 'till you've played Lunar Lander with > a golfball printer...) > > Unlike the mainframes, these machines were generally > sold outright & therefore scrapped outside of Burroughs, > so there were lots of them around. > > Finally sold the hard disk carts to a rebuilder, > recycled the floppies & tossed the mylar tapes > & manuals. > > HOWEVER, I do still have an electrical parts > catalogue from 1972, a little early for the B80, > but might have some of those chips from the > TC listed; if you're interested, send me a couple > of part numbers off list & I'll see if they're listed > and it's worth while scanning it for ya. > > If size vs computing power were a criterion, > there wouldn't be very many old mainframes in > Sridhar's collection... > > And yes, rugged indeed; extremely reliable, aside > from the occasional head crash. Alas, many of > them were disembowelled & ended up as desks > or workbenches. > > As mentioned elsewhere, I also still have a digital > cassette drive & tapes with who knows what on > them (for the L/TC's), as well as a TD700 flat- > screen display unit & controller for the B80, if > anybody's interested. > > mike > ----------------Original Message----------------- > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:44:21 +0100 > From: "Sipke de Wal" > Subject: Re: Burroughs - any information? > > I did obtain about 5 TC5500 consoles and a B80 > back in the '80. > > They were rather large for their computing power > and no software was obtainable so I scrapped them. > > I still have a couple of kilo's TTL-chips from them, with > their own Burroughs legacy partnumbers. > > Very rugged design though! > > Maybe you could get some old "B" hardeware but > software was out of the question. > > Sipke de Wal > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 23:17:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? In-Reply-To: Re: Burroughs - any information? (Chad Fernandez) References: <3C1A26B4.891EB8C3@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15388.11877.904215.803821@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 14, Chad Fernandez wrote: > The Post Office still uses Unisys stuff, although, I think they may be > switching to IBM. I saw the Portage (next city over) PO had new looking > IBM stuff a few weeks back. > > Unisys had/has a govt. division of the company. The post office in Beltsville, MD just switched over to that Unisys stuff maybe 2 years ago... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 23:59:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? In-Reply-To: <15388.11877.904215.803821@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3C1A26B4.891EB8C3@internet1.net> <15388.11877.904215.803821@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >On December 14, Chad Fernandez wrote: >> The Post Office still uses Unisys stuff, although, I think they may be >> switching to IBM. I saw the Portage (next city over) PO had new looking >> IBM stuff a few weeks back. >> >> Unisys had/has a govt. division of the company. > > The post office in Beltsville, MD just switched over to that >Unisys stuff maybe 2 years ago... In the early 90's, after the Zenith govenment contracts for supplying the Z-248's and such had run out, Unisys supplied the DoD with 386SX-16 machines in various configuration under the Desktop III contract. One interesting aspect of these machines was that they came standard with SCSI interfaces and hard disks. Now most of the systems, at least for the Navy, are supplied by Dell and will likely continue to be for the forseeable future. The post office in Greenbelt, MD has IBM terminals and they are fairly new. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fernande at internet1.net Sun Dec 16 13:31:25 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? References: <3C1A26B4.891EB8C3@internet1.net> <15388.11877.904215.803821@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C1CF68D.885EDED9@internet1.net> I may have owned a pair of those machines. I bought a pair of sx-16 for $40 from a guy that said that he got them for a friend that did service, but would say what company or organization. I used to sort of collect Unisys PC's. My first couple were 286's with MFM drives, then I got the 386sx-16's, then a DX-33, then a 486 server. I picked up another 486 for family, and upgraded the 386DX-33 to a 486. I still have the 486's, although they aren't currently being used. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeff Hellige wrote: > In the early 90's, after the Zenith govenment contracts for > supplying the Z-248's and such had run out, Unisys supplied the DoD > with 386SX-16 machines in various configuration under the Desktop III > contract. One interesting aspect of these machines was that they > came standard with SCSI interfaces and hard disks. Now most of the > systems, at least for the Navy, are supplied by Dell and will likely > continue to be for the forseeable future. > > The post office in Greenbelt, MD has IBM terminals and they > are fairly new. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 09:24:07 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! References: <20011214225915.J79440-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3C1A8E65.4A9E6786@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002b01c1857c$8a27fd40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Keep in mind that this guy's offering a bunch of spare parts for cheap. You can't go out and buy these, and he's got 'em and wants to get rid of 'em. If you wanted one or more of these, would you prefer he simply toss his broken C64 or C128 in the dumpster? He probably fixed another computer with these otherwise useless ones and figures someone else might want to do the same. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 > > > > Oooh, I want a button buttons key keys! > > > > -- > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > jss@subatomix.com > > Goes to the back room and smashes a 286 with sledge hammer. > *** breaking sounds *** > That should get me several several grand on ebay! > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 09:26:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:07 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011215011636.00ba6580@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <004301c1857c$d0a50880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think the guy's providing a service, and that it's not about making money. He's not likely to get rich, after all. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 2:21 AM Subject: Re: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! > At 10:08 PM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >People on here have talked about people on eBay taking a perfectly good > >working machine and selling it off piece by piece but this takes the > >capacitor screwdriver, soldering iron and sucker.... > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 > > > >This person? is selling 40 little plastic thingies that go under a key on > >the Commodore 128's keyboard along with a spring!!! > > > >Bryan > > > >Excuse while I go bang my head against a wall... Did you know if you do that > >for an hour you burn 150 calories? > > oh, come on -- it isn't like the guy was unsoldering the TTL from an Apple > 1 to sell as parts. If he is willing to put in the effort and ship 50 > boxes to make $50, then he has a lot more time on his hands than I do. > > So even if they came from a working machine, perhaps 5 people out there who > have a Commodore 128 sitting unused because it has a broken keycap can buy > a replacement part at a reasonable price, yielding a net increase in > working vintage machines. > > Speaking as a person who has an organ donation card filled out, I just hope > that my logic applies only to computers and not to people who haven't yet > reached the end of the line. > I'd rather keep my organs for a while longer. > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 15 12:54:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! In-Reply-To: <200112150308.WAA31373@wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Dec 14, 1 10:08:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 763 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/33744a0f/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 21:11:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! References: Message-ID: <002401c185df$5040a6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While I agree completely with what you've said, I'd point out that you frequently seem to take the position that one should always repair a machine and never use one for parts. It's an easy thing to say, but, in light of your comment, I'm sure you realize how hard it is to determine where to draw the line between machines for parts and machines to fix. I made the remark earlier that he's actually performing a useful service in that he's making parts available that many would simply have tossed out. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! > > > > > > People on here have talked about people on eBay taking a perfectly good > > working machine and selling it off piece by piece but this takes the > > capacitor screwdriver, soldering iron and sucker.... > > > Is there any evidence that he has stripped a working machine for parts? > Does he have other auctions where he's selling the keycaps, keyboard > frame, keyboard PCB, logic PCB, chips, case parts, passive components, etc? > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 > > > > This person? is selling 40 little plastic thingies that go under a key on > > the Commodore 128's keyboard along with a spring!!! > > OK, say I have a C128. I've got keyboard problems and need some > replacement 'widgets'. Where should I go to get them? > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 09:33:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: <15f.5a55078.294c7a86@aol.com> Message-ID: <005d01c1857d$d3ff1380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, I'd support annual testing/licensing, provided that the test was such that no engineer ever got 100%, and the bottom 10%, nationally, were injoined from practicing for a period of 5 years, during which they had to do something else instead. On passing the qualification series in the upper 90%, they'd be readmitted to the "club" but at a pay rate equivalent to what they earned outside. Even more important than knowing the difference between NPN and PNP is the basic ability to read and extract content, and to write and include some. I've met dozens of recent graduates who can't even speak the language properly, and can't follow a simple sequential procedure. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: CLeyson@aol.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 3:05 AM Subject: Re: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") On Sat 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > There's a big difference between writing code to solve problems and being > a software engineer. Designing, coding, and compiling is only 40% of the > battle. Hopefully you're also spending some time planning and testing. The company I work for seem to have forgotten the planning and testing part of the software design process. We had a lot of embedded software written by outside contractors for a 486 running QNX real time OS. Over the years the software has evolved into the hardware equivalent of a rats nest and it's been left to our customers to find the bugs - most being "show stoppers". I sometimes wonder just how many customers we've lost because of this. Also, dont get me wrong, the same should be applied to hardware design. We recently interviewed an electronics engineering graduate who didn't know the difference between NPN and PNP transistors !! What do they teach kids these days ?? Should engineers be licensed ? - It's not a bad idea. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/249c07c0/attachment.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 15 10:37:37 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: <15f.5a55078.294c7a86@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C1B7C51.A9B4C3AE@jetnet.ab.ca> CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit "Should HTML/inline files be banded from EMAIL?" I ask. As of late I have turned inline viewing off, with all the stupid viruses around. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 21:07:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: <15f.5a55078.294c7a86@aol.com> <3C1B7C51.A9B4C3AE@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001a01c185de$d90c9940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You wouldn't mean banned, would you? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") > CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > Encoding: 7bit > > "Should HTML/inline files be banded from EMAIL?" I ask. > As of late I have turned inline viewing off, with all the > stupid viruses around. > > > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 15 11:55:55 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: Ben Franchuk wrote: > "Should HTML/inline files be banded from EMAIL?" I ask. > As of late I have turned inline viewing off, with all the > stupid viruses around. Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/789544de/attachment.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 15 11:24:04 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: Message-ID: <3C1B8734.1E578A69@jetnet.ab.ca> CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit Stupid AOL, but I can live with that. Now the stupid HTML SPAM -- that is another kettle of fish! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Dec 15 03:26:12 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:31:36 PST." <200112150131.RAA07390@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <200112150926.JAA18579@citadel.metropolis.local> > > > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? > > > You know, I always wanted to find (or at least play with) a Cogent STM, or > > a Linn Rekursiv. > > Were Rekursivs ever in production? I thought it was just a prototype, and > not even a totally completed one at that. > I believe some Rekursiv boards surfaced in a surplus store in Lakewood, Colorado a wile back. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Dec 15 05:00:49 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:31:36 PST." <200112150131.RAA07390@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <200112151100.LAA20077@citadel.metropolis.local> > > > > What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? > > > > > You know, I always wanted to find (or at least play with) a Cogent STM, or > > > a Linn Rekursiv. > > > Were Rekursivs ever in production? I thought it was just a prototype, and > > not even a totally completed one at that. > > > I believe some Rekursiv boards surfaced in a surplus store in Lakewood, > Colorado a wile back. A followup: According to a posting in alt.folklore.computers, March 15 1993, by one of the Rekursiv team, around 30 were sold. I wonder if any working examples still exist? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Dec 15 10:03:48 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <20011214205124.JLRK2493.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHB OX> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011215110348.00dd7120@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:46 PM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >Allways wanted an SGI INDIGO. >Allways wanted an Atari 1450xld and: >an Atari 815 disk drive >A trak disk drive -snip- I want a CRAY. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 11:11:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011215110348.00dd7120@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B58@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3.0.2.32.20011215110348.00dd7120@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: >At 03:46 PM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >>Allways wanted an SGI INDIGO. >>Allways wanted an Atari 1450xld and: >>an Atari 815 disk drive >>A trak disk drive >-snip- > >I want a CRAY. talk to Dave -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Dec 15 05:40:47 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no to In-Reply-To: <200112150140.fBF1eQv05322@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <3C1A971F.1CF9A5D2@arrl.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011215223229.02b94e18@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 07:40 PM 14/12/2001 -0600, Eric Dittman wrote: > > digital Alphabook. Not exactly Rare, just hard-to-find > >I'd love an Alphabook, but when they are available, they are >expensive. Once the VMS IPF port is finished and IPF laptops >are available I'll finally have a native VMS laptop. Why wait? You can get a pay for VAX simulator to run on your Intel Laptop today (Charon-VAX http://www.charon-vax.com) and the SIMH http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ family of free simulators (including PDP-11 and PDP-10) has a VAX emulator that's almost working (VMS boots but crashes shortly thereafter). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From dittman at dittman.net Sat Dec 15 10:32:37 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011215223229.02b94e18@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Dec 15, 2001 10:40:47 PM Message-ID: <200112151632.fBFGWbW06895@narnia.int.dittman.net> > At 07:40 PM 14/12/2001 -0600, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > digital Alphabook. Not exactly Rare, just hard-to-find > > > >I'd love an Alphabook, but when they are available, they are > >expensive. Once the VMS IPF port is finished and IPF laptops > >are available I'll finally have a native VMS laptop. > > > Why wait? You can get a pay for VAX simulator to run on your Intel Laptop > today (Charon-VAX http://www.charon-vax.com) and the SIMH > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ family of free simulators (including PDP-11 > and PDP-10) has a VAX emulator that's almost working (VMS boots but crashes > shortly thereafter). The commercial VAX simulator is extremely expensive, and the SIMH and TS10 aren't there yet. Even so, the keyword was "native". I don't want the performance hit that comes with running an emulation. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Dec 15 15:30:21 2001 From: cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just In-Reply-To: <200112151632.fBFGWbW06895@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > The commercial VAX simulator is extremely expensive, and the SIMH and TS10 > aren't there yet. Even so, the keyword was "native". I don't want the > performance hit that comes with running an emulation. I agree that Charon-VAX is expensive but seeing how well SIMH has gone with the other emultations I would expect that it will provide a bootable VAX environment shortly. The problem with the Alphabook was that it's not exactly fast and the battery life is short. They are also hard to find and expensive should you find one. I suspect that a 1GHz laptop will run a VAX emulation faster than the Alphabook with better battery life too. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 16:06:15 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just In-Reply-To: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just (Huw Davies) References: <200112151632.fBFGWbW06895@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15387.51543.144801.762174@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, Huw Davies wrote: > The problem with the Alphabook was that it's not exactly fast and > the battery life is short. They are also hard to find and expensive > should you find one. I suspect that a 1GHz laptop will run a VAX > emulation faster than the Alphabook with better battery life too. Yes but then you'd have the embarrassment of being seen carrying a PeeCee around. That's a hangin' offense around here! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 07:59:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Commodore built a "luggable" C64 with 5in colour CRT and 5.25in drive, >I've never seen one on ebay. Actually, the SX64 shows up on there all the time. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/2418ea2b/attachment.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 15 11:37:45 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Dec 15, 1 08:59:28 am" Message-ID: <200112151737.JAA08854@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Commodore built a "luggable" C64 with 5in colour CRT and 5.25in drive, > > I've never seen one on ebay. > Actually, the SX64 shows up on there all the time. And, despite their novelty, they aren't all that uncommon either. It was an unusual thing for me to discover :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash ---------------- From at258 at osfn.org Sat Dec 15 09:22:50 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011215044208.19727.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anyone know where we could find a Quotron 801? On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Loboyko Steve wrote: > I'm interested in extremely early micros, so, my > votes: > > Mike computers from Martin Research (esp. 8008 based) > > Scelbi-8H > > Qwint Systems terminals (Z-80 based) > > Intel 4004, 8008, 4040 development systems > > > I worked for Martin Reasearch (when its name was > changed to Qwint) and there were Mike parts all over > the place as junk, damnit. OTOH, if I listed the stuff > I threw out in the 80's, people on this list would > probably cry... > > I wanted a Scelbi so bad I got the prints and manual; > with these, I'm building an 8008 machine that will > combine the best parts of the designs of the Scelbi, > Mark-8, and Mike computers. I have also resurrected > the SCELBAL computer language and have modified it to > be ROMMable. I've written a Windows-based 8008 > emulator/debugger for it that runs SCELBAL on a > virtual TTY on the screen or out a serial port. > Interestringly, even a stock, fully loaded Scelbi-8H > didn't have enough address space to run SCELBAL! > > A few people (on this list) are (hopefully) beta > testing the emulator/debugger. Combined with a > completely restored ADM-3A and some paper tape > punches/readers, I hope to have a maintainable, > demonstratable, working model of a 70's home > computing setup. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From cbajpai at mediaone.net Sat Dec 15 10:05:53 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c18582$5f8cf300$017ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> There was one on sale on Ebay last year...it was located in Australia. It went for more than $500. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of George Leo Rachor Jr. Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 7:02 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers I remember the first machine I seriously tried to come up with the money to buy. Anybody else remember the Compucolor? I'm not sure I ever learned the technical details of the machine. Seems like they disappeared from the scene as fast as they came on. Wouldn't mind adding one of those to my inventory but I'm not sure I could afford to ship it from Timbuck2.... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > How about a Sphere 1? Not sure how many were made, but it > certainly wasn't many. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From menadeau at mediaone.net Sat Dec 15 10:12:18 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: Message-ID: <004701c18583$487c4c00$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> The early Intecolor and Compucolor ads use the same photo and the specs are the same. The Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor 8001 are the same. Compucolor Corp. seems to have been a separate company located near Intelligent Systems, which produced the Intecolor. I think it might have been either a private-label deal or a separate company set up by Intelligent Systems to sell the system. I'd appreciate any information that anyone on the list might have on this. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > > > I remember the first machine I seriously tried to come up with the money > > to buy. > > > > Anybody else remember the Compucolor? > > > > I'm not sure I ever learned the technical details of the machine. > > > > Seems like they disappeared from the scene as fast as they came on. > > > > Wouldn't mind adding one of those to my inventory but I'm not sure I could > > afford to ship it from Timbuck2.... > > Is this the same as the Compucolor? I have an Intecolor 8001 which is a > huge beast: integrated CRT but the keyboard was separate (and I am > currently missing it). Definitely a rare beast. This is the only one > I've ever come across. > > The only other one I've known anyone to have was the same guy who had that > Sphere 1 I referenced previously (he seemed good at finding rarities). He > said he found it lying at the side of a road. He thought it was just a TV > at first but when he stopped to check it out he found it was a computer. > > So let this be a lesson to you: check those "TV"s you find in thrift > stores and flea markets. > > Perhaps they are abundant, but we just pass them by out of ignorance? :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From at258 at osfn.org Sat Dec 15 16:54:26 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <004701c18583$487c4c00$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: Intecolor was based in Georgia (Norcoss?) if I remember correctly. We were given some Intecolor parts, but lack a full machine. On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > The early Intecolor and Compucolor ads use the same photo and the specs are > the same. The Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor 8001 are the same. Compucolor > Corp. seems to have been a separate company located near Intelligent > Systems, which produced the Intecolor. I think it might have been either a > private-label deal or a separate company set up by Intelligent Systems to > sell the system. I'd appreciate any information that anyone on the list > might have on this. > > --Mike > > > Michael Nadeau > Editorial Services > 603-893-2379 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sellam Ismail" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:50 PM > Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > > > > > I remember the first machine I seriously tried to come up with the money > > > to buy. > > > > > > Anybody else remember the Compucolor? > > > > > > I'm not sure I ever learned the technical details of the machine. > > > > > > Seems like they disappeared from the scene as fast as they came on. > > > > > > Wouldn't mind adding one of those to my inventory but I'm not sure I > could > > > afford to ship it from Timbuck2.... > > > > Is this the same as the Compucolor? I have an Intecolor 8001 which is a > > huge beast: integrated CRT but the keyboard was separate (and I am > > currently missing it). Definitely a rare beast. This is the only one > > I've ever come across. > > > > The only other one I've known anyone to have was the same guy who had that > > Sphere 1 I referenced previously (he seemed good at finding rarities). He > > said he found it lying at the side of a road. He thought it was just a TV > > at first but when he stopped to check it out he found it was a computer. > > > > So let this be a lesson to you: check those "TV"s you find in thrift > > stores and flea markets. > > > > Perhaps they are abundant, but we just pass them by out of ignorance? :) > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From menadeau at mediaone.net Sat Dec 15 18:08:22 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: Message-ID: <01b101c185c5$c9d33c40$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Compucolor was in Norcross, Georgia, and Intelligent Systems (Intecolor) was in Duluth, Georgia. They are adjacent to one another just northeast of Atlanta. I've only seen one Compucolor 8001 system, in 1981. It was destroyed in front of a firing squad--long story. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle K. Peirce" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 5:54 PM Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > Intecolor was based in Georgia (Norcoss?) if I remember correctly. We > were given some Intecolor parts, but lack a full machine. > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > > > The early Intecolor and Compucolor ads use the same photo and the specs are > > the same. The Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor 8001 are the same. Compucolor > > Corp. seems to have been a separate company located near Intelligent > > Systems, which produced the Intecolor. I think it might have been either a > > private-label deal or a separate company set up by Intelligent Systems to > > sell the system. I'd appreciate any information that anyone on the list > > might have on this. > > > > --Mike > > > > > > Michael Nadeau > > Editorial Services > > 603-893-2379 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sellam Ismail" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:50 PM > > Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > > > > > > > I remember the first machine I seriously tried to come up with the money > > > > to buy. > > > > > > > > Anybody else remember the Compucolor? > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I ever learned the technical details of the machine. > > > > > > > > Seems like they disappeared from the scene as fast as they came on. > > > > > > > > Wouldn't mind adding one of those to my inventory but I'm not sure I > > could > > > > afford to ship it from Timbuck2.... > > > > > > Is this the same as the Compucolor? I have an Intecolor 8001 which is a > > > huge beast: integrated CRT but the keyboard was separate (and I am > > > currently missing it). Definitely a rare beast. This is the only one > > > I've ever come across. > > > > > > The only other one I've known anyone to have was the same guy who had that > > > Sphere 1 I referenced previously (he seemed good at finding rarities). He > > > said he found it lying at the side of a road. He thought it was just a TV > > > at first but when he stopped to check it out he found it was a computer. > > > > > > So let this be a lesson to you: check those "TV"s you find in thrift > > > stores and flea markets. > > > > > > Perhaps they are abundant, but we just pass them by out of ignorance? :) > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Dec 15 10:50:18 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B5E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > The Lilith & the Tektronix Magnolia. These I regret not > hanging on to. I have never seen another. I still have > a Lilith mouse. Did the Magnolia really Smalltalk-80 in reverse-video mode? The only ones I've seen were in photos, and one showed white text on black background in Smalltalk... -dq From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 15 11:24:59 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011215110321.V83594-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> What I've not been able to find anywhere around here (middle of the USA) are PDPs besides PDP-11s and PDP-8s. I've found PDP-11s as early as a /34 around here, and newer BA23 boxen are quite common. I do not have a PDP-8, but I saw an /I and an /S in a collection near me, so they don't qualify, either. I would like to find a PDP-10 or descendant, a -12, or even a -9 or -15. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From at258 at osfn.org Sat Dec 15 16:41:42 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011215110321.V83594-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: The PDP-9 is fairly rare. There were 445 built, and we've been able to locate 8 or 9 survivors. PDP-10's are a bit more common. On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > What I've not been able to find anywhere around here (middle of the USA) > are PDPs besides PDP-11s and PDP-8s. > > I've found PDP-11s as early as a /34 around here, and newer BA23 boxen are > quite common. I do not have a PDP-8, but I saw an /I and an /S in a > collection near me, so they don't qualify, either. > > I would like to find a PDP-10 or descendant, a -12, or even a -9 or -15. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 15 18:47:04 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: Message-ID: <00cb01c185d4$6f53ac00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Commodore built a "luggable" C64 with 5in colour CRT and > 5.25in drive, I've never seen one on ebay. Is this one? Keep trying. "Commodore SX64 Executive Computer -Excellent!" item#282977642 $119.00 Mar-13-00 Mar-23-00 (my bid was, uh, less) John A. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 15 20:29:13 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <00cb01c185d4$6f53ac00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Dec 15, 1 07:47:04 pm" Message-ID: <200112160229.SAA10058@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Commodore built a "luggable" C64 with 5in colour CRT and > > 5.25in drive, I've never seen one on ebay. > > Is this one? Keep trying. > "Commodore SX64 Executive Computer -Excellent!" Sure is. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- A kindness done today is the surest way to a brighter tomorrow. -- Anonymous From dlinder at uiuc.edu Sun Dec 16 14:15:37 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <200112150558.VAA09494@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Here are a few that while not so hard to find... WHen they are on eBay, the > > price goes very high: > > > > Commodore 128D > > Now these I can see some justification for (not merely because I'm a Commodore > freak). 128Ds are nice units, especially with the built-in disk drive; and > they're very sturdy and well-built. They're also very stylish units, probably > the best looking computers of the 8-bit Commodore line. A C-128D was my main machine before I got my Amiga 2000. I was planning on unboxing it again soon, but before I stopped using it, the drive seemed to be going out of alignment. It needed a little gentle pressure on the disk sometimes to get 'er going. Now, when I bring it back out - for someone w/o a whole lot of experience with working on disk drives - what's a good approach for getting it back up to snuff. (I currently have no o-scope or other 'fancy' test gear, so I'm looking for the basics here...) thanks- - Dan -- Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 15 09:38:42 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <001501c18522$b4afffe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND (/IOR and /IOW) > you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only used in > conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, which wouldn't > occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure it cares one > iota whether IORQ is active. Not true, the DART like the SIO has no write signal... > > see below, plz. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take your > > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. > > > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial I/O chip > is > > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the same > signals to > > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any other > serial > > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique features. > It > > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to make > the > > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the ISA bus, > as > > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. Likewise > for > > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the trick. > That > > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode needed) > > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. (not that > > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the DataStrobe or > whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a 1-part > solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a convenient > part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, /IOR, /IOW, > etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 anyway, which is > what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make whatever > signals you needed. Yes exactly direct! There is only decode and direct connection from IOW to input data strobe and IOR to ouput data strobe. Take a look at the Asyc card schematic in the XT tech ref. ALE is not needed for I/O on the ISA bus, only for latching the LA bus (which is above the 64K limit of I/O). > > > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to the > board I > > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few 68-pin PLCC > > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. The part > in > > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. Though there > was > > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in that > > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the JEDEC > 'A' > > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which i80186's > and > > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a PLCC > socket. > > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 on it. > > > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, just > > not in 1981... > > > > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered into the > > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the point at > which > > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one milestone > wasn't > > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at Boca was > > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented the guys > with > > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the '188). While > > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated into a > > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the brains > to > > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from the > fire. > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts > on > > > the > > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift > > > register > > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 09:55:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <007101c18580$e7c5e9e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, that doesn't change the fact that if you AND /IOR with /IOW you get a useable /IORQ. Whether you feed the /IOW forward doesn't matter. I stand corrected on my presumption that the M1 and IORQ were used solely for the int handshake. I never liked the Z80 peripherals and never even once used one in my own work, though they were everywher in commercial hardware. Even my HP plotter has one it it, though it doesn't have a Z80. I believe the reason they were so widespread in their application was that the Zilog and Mostek application notes seemed, unlike those from Intel and MOT, to work without any additional effort, so anybody could copy one and use it, to wit, the Ferguson Big Board, and Big Board II, among others just like it. The reason I didn't like 'em, BTW was because the peripherals limited the rate at which you could run your system without major effort, unless you didn't mind giving up the features for which you'd bought them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:38 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND (/IOR and /IOW) > > you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only used in > > conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, which wouldn't > > occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure it cares one > > iota whether IORQ is active. > > Not true, the DART like the SIO has no write signal... > > > > > see below, plz. > > > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take your > > > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial I/O chip > > is > > > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the same > > signals to > > > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any other > > serial > > > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique features. > > It > > > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to make > > the > > > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the ISA bus, > > as > > > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. Likewise > > for > > > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the trick. > > That > > > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > > > > > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode needed) > > > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. (not that > > > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > > > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the DataStrobe or > > whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a 1-part > > solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a convenient > > part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, /IOR, /IOW, > > etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 anyway, which is > > what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make whatever > > signals you needed. > > Yes exactly direct! There is only decode and direct connection from IOW to > input data strobe and IOR to ouput data strobe. Take a look at the Asyc > card schematic in the XT tech ref. ALE is not needed for I/O on the ISA > bus, only for latching the LA bus (which is above the 64K limit of I/O). > > > > > > > > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to the > > board I > > > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few 68-pin PLCC > > > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. The part > > in > > > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. Though there > > was > > > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in that > > > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the JEDEC > > 'A' > > > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which i80186's > > and > > > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a PLCC > > socket. > > > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 on it. > > > > > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, just > > > not in 1981... > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered into the > > > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the point at > > which > > > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one milestone > > wasn't > > > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at Boca was > > > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented the guys > > with > > > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the '188). While > > > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated into a > > > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the brains > > to > > > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from the > > fire. > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered interrupts > > on > > > > the > > > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB shift > > > > register > > > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 15 11:33:07 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <007101c18580$e7c5e9e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, that doesn't change the fact that if you AND /IOR with /IOW you get a > useable /IORQ. Whether you feed the /IOW forward doesn't matter. Except that you need to have a valid read signal before IORQ... > > I stand corrected on my presumption that the M1 and IORQ were used solely for > the int handshake. I never liked the Z80 peripherals and never even once used > one in my own work, though they were everywher in commercial hardware. Even my > HP plotter has one it it, though it doesn't have a Z80. Actually I thought the Z80 peripherals were quite nicely integrated with the Z80, with the status affects interrupt stuff, daisy chained interrupts and other nice ideas. (many of which had been done before in minicomputers) They also had consistant reset polarity's and basically look like they gave a lot of thought to System Design, not just chip design. When we moved from designing Z80 stuff to embedded PC stuff it was like going back to the stone ages. The Intel stuff being a rag-tag pile of **** The Z8000 stuff was even nicer, with Multiplexed data/address bus so the all peripherals could have 256 directly addressed registers without losing valuable pins on the 40 pin chips... > > I believe the reason they were so widespread in their application was that the > Zilog and Mostek application notes seemed, unlike those from Intel and MOT, to > work without any additional effort, so anybody could copy one and use it, to > wit, the Ferguson Big Board, and Big Board II, among others just like it. > > The reason I didn't like 'em, BTW was because the peripherals limited the rate > at which you could run your system without major effort, unless you didn't mind > giving up the features for which you'd bought them. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:38 AM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND (/IOR and > /IOW) > > > you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only used in > > > conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, which > wouldn't > > > occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure it cares > one > > > iota whether IORQ is active. > > > > Not true, the DART like the SIO has no write signal... > > > > > > > > see below, plz. > > > > > > Dick > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take your > > > > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial I/O > chip > > > is > > > > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the same > > > signals to > > > > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any other > > > serial > > > > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique > features. > > > It > > > > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to > make > > > the > > > > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the ISA > bus, > > > as > > > > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. > Likewise > > > for > > > > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the trick. > > > That > > > > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode needed) > > > > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. (not that > > > > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > > > > > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the DataStrobe or > > > whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a 1-part > > > solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a convenient > > > part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, /IOR, > /IOW, > > > etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 anyway, which > is > > > what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make whatever > > > signals you needed. > > > > Yes exactly direct! There is only decode and direct connection from IOW to > > input data strobe and IOR to ouput data strobe. Take a look at the Asyc > > card schematic in the XT tech ref. ALE is not needed for I/O on the ISA > > bus, only for latching the LA bus (which is above the 64K limit of I/O). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to the > > > board I > > > > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few 68-pin > PLCC > > > > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. The > part > > > in > > > > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. Though > there > > > was > > > > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in that > > > > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the > JEDEC > > > 'A' > > > > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which > i80186's > > > and > > > > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a PLCC > > > socket. > > > > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 on > it. > > > > > > > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, just > > > > not in 1981... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered into > the > > > > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the point > at > > > which > > > > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one milestone > > > wasn't > > > > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at Boca > was > > > > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented the > guys > > > with > > > > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the '188). > While > > > > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated > into a > > > > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the > brains > > > to > > > > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from the > > > fire. > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the > PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered > interrupts > > > on > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB > shift > > > > > register > > > > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 18:20:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:08 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <001301c185c7$759268c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's what clocks are for. As I wrote before, you derive the /IORQ from the /IOR and /IOW, build your select from those as well, and then use a registered output for the /RD signal. The default bus clock is 8 MHz, and the default for the -A SIO/DART is 4. That should provide enough setup time. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:33 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Well, that doesn't change the fact that if you AND /IOR with /IOW you get a > > useable /IORQ. Whether you feed the /IOW forward doesn't matter. > > Except that you need to have a valid read signal before IORQ... > > > > > I stand corrected on my presumption that the M1 and IORQ were used solely for > > the int handshake. I never liked the Z80 peripherals and never even once used > > one in my own work, though they were everywher in commercial hardware. Even my > > HP plotter has one it it, though it doesn't have a Z80. > > Actually I thought the Z80 peripherals were quite nicely > integrated with the Z80, with the status affects interrupt stuff, daisy > chained interrupts and other nice ideas. (many of which had been done > before in minicomputers) They also had consistant reset polarity's and > basically look like they gave a lot of thought to System Design, not just > chip design. When we moved from designing Z80 stuff to embedded PC stuff > it was like going back to the stone ages. The Intel stuff being a rag-tag > pile of **** > > The Z8000 stuff was even nicer, with Multiplexed data/address bus > so the all peripherals could have 256 directly addressed registers without > losing valuable pins on the 40 pin chips... > Well ... we digress ... I never liked the Z-80 setup because the peripherals basically limited the CPU speed, and I liked the Z8000 series even less, though I don't remember why. I didn't EVER use an Intel product (other than at the board level) until the 80186 came out, BTW. > > > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:38 AM > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND (/IOR and > > /IOW) > > > > you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only used in > > > > conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, which > > wouldn't > > > > occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure it cares > > one > > > > iota whether IORQ is active. > > > > > > Not true, the DART like the SIO has no write signal... > > > > > > > > > > > see below, plz. > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take your > > > > > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > > > > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial I/O > > chip > > > > is > > > > > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the same > > > > signals to > > > > > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any other > > > > serial > > > > > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique > > features. > > > > It > > > > > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to > > make > > > > the > > > > > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the ISA > > bus, > > > > as > > > > > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. > > Likewise > > > > for > > > > > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the trick. > > > > That > > > > > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode needed) > > > > > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. (not that > > > > > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > > > > > > > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the DataStrobe or > > > > whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a 1-part > > > > solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a convenient > > > > part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, /IOR, > > /IOW, > > > > etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 anyway, which > > is > > > > what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make whatever > > > > signals you needed. > > > > > > Yes exactly direct! There is only decode and direct connection from IOW to > > > input data strobe and IOR to ouput data strobe. Take a look at the Asyc > > > card schematic in the XT tech ref. ALE is not needed for I/O on the ISA > > > bus, only for latching the LA bus (which is above the 64K limit of I/O). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to the > > > > board I > > > > > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few 68-pin > > PLCC > > > > > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. The > > part > > > > in > > > > > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. Though > > there > > > > was > > > > > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in that > > > > > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the > > JEDEC > > > > 'A' > > > > > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which > > i80186's > > > > and > > > > > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a PLCC > > > > socket. > > > > > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 on > > it. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, just > > > > > not in 1981... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered into > > the > > > > > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the point > > at > > > > which > > > > > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one milestone > > > > wasn't > > > > > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at Boca > > was > > > > > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented the > > guys > > > > with > > > > > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the '188). > > While > > > > > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated > > into a > > > > > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the > > brains > > > > to > > > > > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from the > > > > fire. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for the > > PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered > > interrupts > > > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB > > shift > > > > > > register > > > > > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 15 22:03:04 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <001301c185c7$759268c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That's what clocks are for. As I wrote before, you derive the /IORQ from the > /IOR and /IOW, build your select from those as well, and then use a registered > output for the /RD signal. The default bus clock is 8 MHz, and the default for > the -A SIO/DART is 4. That should provide enough setup time. > > Dick But that violates the DART timing, you have to delay IORQ till after the RD signal is valid, but how do you know you even have a IO read cycle till you get the IORD strobe... Like I said before, a mess... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:33 AM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > Well, that doesn't change the fact that if you AND /IOR with /IOW you get a > > > useable /IORQ. Whether you feed the /IOW forward doesn't matter. > > > > Except that you need to have a valid read signal before IORQ... > > > > > > > > I stand corrected on my presumption that the M1 and IORQ were used solely > for > > > the int handshake. I never liked the Z80 peripherals and never even once > used > > > one in my own work, though they were everywher in commercial hardware. Even > my > > > HP plotter has one it it, though it doesn't have a Z80. > > > > Actually I thought the Z80 peripherals were quite nicely > > integrated with the Z80, with the status affects interrupt stuff, daisy > > chained interrupts and other nice ideas. (many of which had been done > > before in minicomputers) They also had consistant reset polarity's and > > basically look like they gave a lot of thought to System Design, not just > > chip design. When we moved from designing Z80 stuff to embedded PC stuff > > it was like going back to the stone ages. The Intel stuff being a rag-tag > > pile of **** > > > > The Z8000 stuff was even nicer, with Multiplexed data/address bus > > so the all peripherals could have 256 directly addressed registers without > > losing valuable pins on the 40 pin chips... > > > Well ... we digress ... I never liked the Z-80 setup because the peripherals > basically limited the CPU speed, and I liked the Z8000 series even less, though > I don't remember why. I didn't EVER use an Intel product (other than at the > board level) until the 80186 came out, BTW. > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:38 AM > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND (/IOR > and > > > /IOW) > > > > > you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only > used in > > > > > conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, which > > > wouldn't > > > > > occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure it > cares > > > one > > > > > iota whether IORQ is active. > > > > > > > > Not true, the DART like the SIO has no write signal... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see below, plz. > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take > your > > > > > > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial > I/O > > > chip > > > > > is > > > > > > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the > same > > > > > signals to > > > > > > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any > other > > > > > serial > > > > > > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique > > > features. > > > > > It > > > > > > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to > > > make > > > > > the > > > > > > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the > ISA > > > bus, > > > > > as > > > > > > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. > > > Likewise > > > > > for > > > > > > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the > trick. > > > > > That > > > > > > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode > needed) > > > > > > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. (not > that > > > > > > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the > DataStrobe or > > > > > whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a > 1-part > > > > > solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a > convenient > > > > > part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, > /IOR, > > > /IOW, > > > > > etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 anyway, > which > > > is > > > > > what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make > whatever > > > > > signals you needed. > > > > > > > > Yes exactly direct! There is only decode and direct connection from IOW to > > > > input data strobe and IOR to ouput data strobe. Take a look at the Asyc > > > > card schematic in the XT tech ref. ALE is not needed for I/O on the ISA > > > > bus, only for latching the LA bus (which is above the 64K limit of I/O). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to > the > > > > > board I > > > > > > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few > 68-pin > > > PLCC > > > > > > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. > The > > > part > > > > > in > > > > > > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. > Though > > > there > > > > > was > > > > > > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in > that > > > > > > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the > > > JEDEC > > > > > 'A' > > > > > > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which > > > i80186's > > > > > and > > > > > > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a > PLCC > > > > > socket. > > > > > > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 > on > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, > just > > > > > > not in 1981... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered > into > > > the > > > > > > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the > point > > > at > > > > > which > > > > > > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one > milestone > > > > > wasn't > > > > > > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at > Boca > > > was > > > > > > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented > the > > > guys > > > > > with > > > > > > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the > '188). > > > While > > > > > > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated > > > into a > > > > > > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the > > > brains > > > > > to > > > > > > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from > the > > > > > fire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for > the > > > PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered > > > interrupts > > > > > on > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB > > > shift > > > > > > > register > > > > > > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 10:11:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <001d01c1864c$6355fa20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a Z80 peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose of any 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or equivalent MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the thing in an hour or less. See below, plz. regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:03 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > That's what clocks are for. As I wrote before, you derive the /IORQ from the > > /IOR and /IOW, build your select from those as well, and then use a registered > > output for the /RD signal. The default bus clock is 8 MHz, and the default for > > the -A SIO/DART is 4. That should provide enough setup time. > > > > Dick > But that violates the DART timing, you have to delay IORQ till after the > RD signal is valid, but how do you know you even have a IO read cycle > till you get the IORD strobe... > My point was that, with a PAL, you can decide what timing you want and produce it from the ISA signalling protocol, regardless of the specifics. It's not rocket science. The presence of either /IOW or /IOR tells you there's an IO cycle in progress. If you register that negative logic NOR (the equivalent of a 2 input NAND, in this case) you can then register the output and feed that forward to create the required strobes in whatever order you see fit. Writing the equations, compiling them, and programming the PAL should take no more than 5 minutes. That's a lot less time than figuring out what you can do with unused SSI components already on the board, if there are any, so, from that standpoint, it's just economics. It's no accident that the select and enable timing to the 8250 on most I/O boards was also done with a PAL > > Like I said before, a mess... > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:33 AM > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > Well, that doesn't change the fact that if you AND /IOR with /IOW you get a > > > > useable /IORQ. Whether you feed the /IOW forward doesn't matter. > > > > > > Except that you need to have a valid read signal before IORQ... > > > > > > > > > > > I stand corrected on my presumption that the M1 and IORQ were used solely > > for > > > > the int handshake. I never liked the Z80 peripherals and never even once > > used > > > > one in my own work, though they were everywher in commercial hardware. Even > > my > > > > HP plotter has one it it, though it doesn't have a Z80. > > > > > > Actually I thought the Z80 peripherals were quite nicely > > > integrated with the Z80, with the status affects interrupt stuff, daisy > > > chained interrupts and other nice ideas. (many of which had been done > > > before in minicomputers) They also had consistant reset polarity's and > > > basically look like they gave a lot of thought to System Design, not just > > > chip design. When we moved from designing Z80 stuff to embedded PC stuff > > > it was like going back to the stone ages. The Intel stuff being a rag-tag > > > pile of **** > > > > > > The Z8000 stuff was even nicer, with Multiplexed data/address bus > > > so the all peripherals could have 256 directly addressed registers without > > > losing valuable pins on the 40 pin chips... > > > > > Well ... we digress ... I never liked the Z-80 setup because the peripherals > > basically limited the CPU speed, and I liked the Z8000 series even less, though > > I don't remember why. I didn't EVER use an Intel product (other than at the > > board level) until the 80186 came out, BTW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:38 AM > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND (/IOR > > and > > > > /IOW) > > > > > > you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only > > used in > > > > > > conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, which > > > > wouldn't > > > > > > occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure it > > cares > > > > one > > > > > > iota whether IORQ is active. > > > > > > > > > > Not true, the DART like the SIO has no write signal... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see below, plz. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to take > > your > > > > > > > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was when. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the serial > > I/O > > > > chip > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the > > same > > > > > > signals to > > > > > > > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than any > > other > > > > > > serial > > > > > > > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its unique > > > > features. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of machinations to > > > > make > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on the > > ISA > > > > bus, > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the job. > > > > Likewise > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do the > > trick. > > > > > > That > > > > > > > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode > > needed) > > > > > > > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. (not > > that > > > > > > > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the > > DataStrobe or > > > > > > whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a > > 1-part > > > > > > solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a > > convenient > > > > > > part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, > > /IOR, > > > > /IOW, > > > > > > etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 anyway, > > which > > > > is > > > > > > what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make > > whatever > > > > > > signals you needed. > > > > > > > > > > Yes exactly direct! There is only decode and direct connection from IOW to > > > > > input data strobe and IOR to ouput data strobe. Take a look at the Asyc > > > > > card schematic in the XT tech ref. ALE is not needed for I/O on the ISA > > > > > bus, only for latching the LA bus (which is above the 64K limit of I/O). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in to > > the > > > > > > board I > > > > > > > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few > > 68-pin > > > > PLCC > > > > > > > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that board. > > The > > > > part > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. > > Though > > > > there > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board in > > that > > > > > > > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike the > > > > JEDEC > > > > > > 'A' > > > > > > > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in which > > > > i80186's > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work in a > > PLCC > > > > > > socket. > > > > > > > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the PLCC-44 > > on > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, > > just > > > > > > > not in 1981... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost entered > > into > > > > the > > > > > > > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the > > point > > > > at > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one > > milestone > > > > > > wasn't > > > > > > > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked at > > Boca > > > > was > > > > > > > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't presented > > the > > > > guys > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the > > '188). > > > > While > > > > > > > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had deteriorated > > > > into a > > > > > > > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had the > > > > brains > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts from > > the > > > > > > fire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it for > > the > > > > PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered > > > > interrupts > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read the KB > > > > shift > > > > > > > > register > > > > > > > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Dec 16 11:58:52 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <001d01c1864c$6355fa20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a Z80 > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose of any > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or equivalent > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the thing in > an hour or less. Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were expensive. > > See below, plz. > > regards, > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > That's what clocks are for. As I wrote before, you derive the /IORQ from > the > > > /IOR and /IOW, build your select from those as well, and then use a > registered > > > output for the /RD signal. The default bus clock is 8 MHz, and the default > for > > > the -A SIO/DART is 4. That should provide enough setup time. > > > > > > Dick > > But that violates the DART timing, you have to delay IORQ till after the > > RD signal is valid, but how do you know you even have a IO read cycle > > till you get the IORD strobe... > > > My point was that, with a PAL, you can decide what timing you want and produce > it from the ISA signalling protocol, regardless of the specifics. It's not > rocket science. The presence of either /IOW or /IOR tells you there's an IO > cycle in progress. If you register that negative logic NOR (the equivalent of a > 2 input NAND, in this case) you can then register the output and feed that > forward to create the required strobes in whatever order you see fit. Except that you only have the 4.77 Mhz clock (not 8 as you specified earlier) to generate all timing so if you delay the IORQ by one clock you only have 200 nS IORQ width, which violates DART timing. I suppose you could generate a wait state, or have a higher speed asychronous clock do the timing, but as I said before: messy... > > Writing the equations, compiling them, and programming the PAL should take no > more than 5 minutes. That's a lot less time than figuring out what you can do > with unused SSI components already on the board, if there are any, so, from that > standpoint, it's just economics. It's no accident that the select and enable > timing to the 8250 on most I/O boards was also done with a PAL Sure decode can be done with a PAL, but the 8250 requires no messy state machine or wait states to recreate Z80 bus timing, just a pure combinatorial decode... > > > > Like I said before, a mess... Still a mess... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:33 AM > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Well, that doesn't change the fact that if you AND /IOR with /IOW you > get a > > > > > useable /IORQ. Whether you feed the /IOW forward doesn't matter. > > > > > > > > Except that you need to have a valid read signal before IORQ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I stand corrected on my presumption that the M1 and IORQ were used > solely > > > for > > > > > the int handshake. I never liked the Z80 peripherals and never even > once > > > used > > > > > one in my own work, though they were everywher in commercial hardware. > Even > > > my > > > > > HP plotter has one it it, though it doesn't have a Z80. > > > > > > > > Actually I thought the Z80 peripherals were quite nicely > > > > integrated with the Z80, with the status affects interrupt stuff, daisy > > > > chained interrupts and other nice ideas. (many of which had been done > > > > before in minicomputers) They also had consistant reset polarity's and > > > > basically look like they gave a lot of thought to System Design, not just > > > > chip design. When we moved from designing Z80 stuff to embedded PC stuff > > > > it was like going back to the stone ages. The Intel stuff being a rag-tag > > > > pile of **** > > > > > > > > The Z8000 stuff was even nicer, with Multiplexed data/address bus > > > > so the all peripherals could have 256 directly addressed registers without > > > > losing valuable pins on the 40 pin chips... > > > > > > > Well ... we digress ... I never liked the Z-80 setup because the peripherals > > > basically limited the CPU speed, and I liked the Z8000 series even less, > though > > > I don't remember why. I didn't EVER use an Intel product (other than at the > > > board level) until the 80186 came out, BTW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:38 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND > (/IOR > > > and > > > > > /IOW) > > > > > > > you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only > > > used in > > > > > > > conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, > which > > > > > wouldn't > > > > > > > occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure > it > > > cares > > > > > one > > > > > > > iota whether IORQ is active. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not true, the DART like the SIO has no write signal... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see below, plz. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to > take > > > your > > > > > > > > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was > when. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the > serial > > > I/O > > > > > chip > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the > > > same > > > > > > > signals to > > > > > > > > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than > any > > > other > > > > > > > serial > > > > > > > > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its > unique > > > > > features. > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of > machinations to > > > > > make > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on > the > > > ISA > > > > > bus, > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the > job. > > > > > Likewise > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do > the > > > trick. > > > > > > > That > > > > > > > > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode > > > needed) > > > > > > > > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. > (not > > > that > > > > > > > > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the > > > DataStrobe or > > > > > > > whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a > > > 1-part > > > > > > > solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a > > > convenient > > > > > > > part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, > > > /IOR, > > > > > /IOW, > > > > > > > etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 > anyway, > > > which > > > > > is > > > > > > > what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make > > > whatever > > > > > > > signals you needed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes exactly direct! There is only decode and direct connection from > IOW to > > > > > > input data strobe and IOR to ouput data strobe. Take a look at the > Asyc > > > > > > card schematic in the XT tech ref. ALE is not needed for I/O on the > ISA > > > > > > bus, only for latching the LA bus (which is above the 64K limit of > I/O). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in > to > > > the > > > > > > > board I > > > > > > > > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few > > > 68-pin > > > > > PLCC > > > > > > > > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that > board. > > > The > > > > > part > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. > > > Though > > > > > there > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board > in > > > that > > > > > > > > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike > the > > > > > JEDEC > > > > > > > 'A' > > > > > > > > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in > which > > > > > i80186's > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work > in a > > > PLCC > > > > > > > socket. > > > > > > > > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the > PLCC-44 > > > on > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, > > > just > > > > > > > > not in 1981... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost > entered > > > into > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the > > > point > > > > > at > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one > > > milestone > > > > > > > wasn't > > > > > > > > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked > at > > > Boca > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't > presented > > > the > > > > > guys > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the > > > '188). > > > > > While > > > > > > > > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had > deteriorated > > > > > into a > > > > > > > > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had > the > > > > > brains > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts > from > > > the > > > > > > > fire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst > chip > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it > for > > > the > > > > > PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered > > > > > interrupts > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read > the KB > > > > > shift > > > > > > > > > register > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 12:45:01 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <3C1CEBAD.60B2EA8E@jetnet.ab.ca> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a Z80 > > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose of any > > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or equivalent > > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the thing in > > an hour or less. > > Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > expensive. I never heard about pal's until about 1990. In some ways the peripheral chips are in a really sorry shape. You have vintage slow I/O (2 MHZ?) or PC motherboard chip sets. Nothing in between. On my FPGA I can run with a 250 ns memory cycle, but need to stretch it to 625 ns for I/O. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 14:00:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <3C1CEBAD.60B2EA8E@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009401c1866c$3f31c1e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> the "vintage-PC" chipsets were 5 MHz parts, I do believe. That still wasn't rocket-fast, but it was adequate for the 4.77 MHz i8088. Pals had been around for quite a long time by 1990. AMD took over the market, more or less, by acquiring MMI, which had been the original master builder of bipolar logic. By 1990 there were half-a dozen or more makers of bipolar pals, not to mention all the CMOS varieties available by then. By 1990, Philips had acquired Signetics, which was also a major producer of bipolar logic, including PROMs and field programmable logic devices. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 11:45 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a Z80 > > > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose of any > > > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or equivalent > > > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the thing in > > > an hour or less. > > > > Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > > expensive. > > I never heard about pal's until about 1990. In some ways the peripheral > chips are in a really sorry shape. You have vintage slow I/O (2 MHZ?) > or PC motherboard chip sets. Nothing in between. On my FPGA I can run > with a 250 ns memory cycle, but need to stretch it to 625 ns for I/O. > > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Dec 16 14:17:39 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <3C1CEBAD.60B2EA8E@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a Z80 > > > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose of any > > > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or equivalent > > > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the thing in > > > an hour or less. > > > > Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > > expensive. > > I never heard about pal's until about 1990. In some ways the peripheral > chips are in a really sorry shape. You have vintage slow I/O (2 MHZ?) > or PC motherboard chip sets. Nothing in between. On my FPGA I can run > with a 250 ns memory cycle, but need to stretch it to 625 ns for I/O. PALs were certainly available earlier, just expensive, non-reprogramable, and power hungry. I think we used our first programmable logic in 1986 (Altera EP900s and EP320s - both low power) for emulation of some PC motherboard stuff in our low power V40 based embedded PCs. We never used PALs but have used GALs a lot for simple decoders and random logic. At about $.50 now they are hard to beat. I think I would do most non-common (probably not Ethernet, USB or video) I/O these days with FPGAs. Its great to be able to change the function and pinout with just a downloadble config file. A 100K (Well maybe 15K if you remove Xilinx inflation factor) SpartanII chip is only $19.00... > > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 13:55:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <008a01c1866b$8ca300c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> PALs weren't expensive enough to keep IBM's competitors from using them. They saved enough in PCB real estate to justify their use, and the ones most commonly used were only 20 pin packages. What's called for is a 16Rx or the like, which was among the cheapest of the 16-series, costing about what an 8-bit address comparator cost. I remember that tradeoff at about the same time. Economics didn't always have an effect on this market, BTW. Some of the choices were stupid from an economic standpoint even though they offered no technological superiority. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a Z80 > > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose of any > > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or equivalent > > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the thing in > > an hour or less. > > > Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > expensive. > > > > > See below, plz. > > > > regards, > > > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:03 PM > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > That's what clocks are for. As I wrote before, you derive the /IORQ from > > the > > > > /IOR and /IOW, build your select from those as well, and then use a > > registered > > > > output for the /RD signal. The default bus clock is 8 MHz, and the default > > for > > > > the -A SIO/DART is 4. That should provide enough setup time. > > > > > > > > Dick > > > But that violates the DART timing, you have to delay IORQ till after the > > > RD signal is valid, but how do you know you even have a IO read cycle > > > till you get the IORD strobe... > > > > > My point was that, with a PAL, you can decide what timing you want and produce > > it from the ISA signalling protocol, regardless of the specifics. It's not > > rocket science. The presence of either /IOW or /IOR tells you there's an IO > > cycle in progress. If you register that negative logic NOR (the equivalent of a > > 2 input NAND, in this case) you can then register the output and feed that > > forward to create the required strobes in whatever order you see fit. > > Except that you only have the 4.77 Mhz clock (not 8 as you specified > earlier) to generate all timing so if you delay the IORQ by one clock you > only have 200 nS IORQ width, which violates DART timing. I suppose you > could generate a wait state, or have a higher speed asychronous clock do > the timing, but as I said before: messy... > > > > > > Writing the equations, compiling them, and programming the PAL should take no > > more than 5 minutes. That's a lot less time than figuring out what you can do > > with unused SSI components already on the board, if there are any, so, from that > > standpoint, it's just economics. It's no accident that the select and enable > > timing to the 8250 on most I/O boards was also done with a PAL > > Sure decode can be done with a PAL, but the 8250 requires no messy state > machine or wait states to recreate Z80 bus timing, just a pure > combinatorial decode... > > > > > > > > Like I said before, a mess... > Still a mess... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:33 AM > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Well, that doesn't change the fact that if you AND /IOR with /IOW you > > get a > > > > > > useable /IORQ. Whether you feed the /IOW forward doesn't matter. > > > > > > > > > > Except that you need to have a valid read signal before IORQ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I stand corrected on my presumption that the M1 and IORQ were used > > solely > > > > for > > > > > > the int handshake. I never liked the Z80 peripherals and never even > > once > > > > used > > > > > > one in my own work, though they were everywher in commercial hardware. > > Even > > > > my > > > > > > HP plotter has one it it, though it doesn't have a Z80. > > > > > > > > > > Actually I thought the Z80 peripherals were quite nicely > > > > > integrated with the Z80, with the status affects interrupt stuff, daisy > > > > > chained interrupts and other nice ideas. (many of which had been done > > > > > before in minicomputers) They also had consistant reset polarity's and > > > > > basically look like they gave a lot of thought to System Design, not just > > > > > chip design. When we moved from designing Z80 stuff to embedded PC stuff > > > > > it was like going back to the stone ages. The Intel stuff being a rag-tag > > > > > pile of **** > > > > > > > > > > The Z8000 stuff was even nicer, with Multiplexed data/address bus > > > > > so the all peripherals could have 256 directly addressed registers without > > > > > losing valuable pins on the 40 pin chips... > > > > > > > > > Well ... we digress ... I never liked the Z-80 setup because the peripherals > > > > basically limited the CPU speed, and I liked the Z8000 series even less, > > though > > > > I don't remember why. I didn't EVER use an Intel product (other than at the > > > > board level) until the 80186 came out, BTW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:38 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think the DART would have been such a mess. If you AND > > (/IOR > > > > and > > > > > > /IOW) > > > > > > > > you get a useable IORQ, not that you really need it, since it's only > > > > used in > > > > > > > > conjunction with M1 to signal the mode-2 interrupt acknowledge, > > which > > > > > > wouldn't > > > > > > > > occur in this case. If the device is selected I'm not at all sure > > it > > > > cares > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > iota whether IORQ is active. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not true, the DART like the SIO has no write signal... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see below, plz. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:45 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dart is Z80 bus, (like an Async only SIO) not Intel. Have to > > take > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > > word on the TCM78808 - sure it was available in 1981? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My old TI datasheets are hiding, so I can't verify what was > > when. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure exactly what difference it makes whose bus the > > serial > > > > I/O > > > > > > chip > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > designed for when the whole bunch of devices use essentially the > > > > same > > > > > > > > signals to > > > > > > > > > > get the job done. The DART doesn't work much differently than > > any > > > > other > > > > > > > > serial > > > > > > > > > > I/O device so long as you don't attempt to use some of its > > unique > > > > > > features. > > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > > seems to me that it takes about the same quantity of > > machinations to > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > 8250, which is also not ideally suited to the ISA bus, work on > > the > > > > ISA > > > > > > bus, > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > it would take to make a Z80 DART or an 8251 or a 2651 do the > > job. > > > > > > Likewise > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > the 2681/68681. No matter what you need, a small PAL will do > > the > > > > trick. > > > > > > > > That > > > > > > > > > > certainly wasn't lost on I/O board makers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The 8250 is a direct ISA bus interface (no logic other than decode > > > > needed) > > > > > > > > > The DART would be a mess, using the Z80s M1,IORQ and all that. > > (not > > > > that > > > > > > > > > there's anything wrong with the Z80 way) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly direct. you do have to invert the ALE to form the > > > > DataStrobe or > > > > > > > > whatever that signal was. I always liked the 8250 because it was a > > > > 1-part > > > > > > > > solution to a problem otherwise using two or more parts. It is a > > > > convenient > > > > > > > > part for the ISA, but since the ISA presents all the other signals, > > > > /IOR, > > > > > > /IOW, > > > > > > > > etc, from which you can derive the required signals in a 16L8 > > anyway, > > > > which > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > what most of them used for decoding the addresses, you could make > > > > whatever > > > > > > > > signals you needed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes exactly direct! There is only decode and direct connection from > > IOW to > > > > > > > input data strobe and IOR to ouput data strobe. Take a look at the > > Asyc > > > > > > > card schematic in the XT tech ref. ALE is not needed for I/O on the > > ISA > > > > > > > bus, only for latching the LA bus (which is above the 64K limit of > > I/O). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I checked the actual board, and the PLCC part that I designed in > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > > board I > > > > > > > > > > was thinking about. It turns out the early version used a few > > > > 68-pin > > > > > > PLCC > > > > > > > > > > sockets, and, in fact, there were no 44-pin PLCC's on that > > board. > > > > The > > > > > > part > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > the PLCC socket, BTW was not a PLCC, but a JEDEC 'C' package. > > > > Though > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > paper for the PLCC, the only parts used on the prototype board > > in > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > application were in the JEDEC 'C' package. Fortunately, unlike > > the > > > > > > JEDEC > > > > > > > > 'A' > > > > > > > > > > package, (that leadless single-sided ceramic chip carrier in > > which > > > > > > i80186's > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > i80286's were commonly used) the 'C' package would easily work > > in a > > > > PLCC > > > > > > > > socket. > > > > > > > > > > A later version, however, did, indeed have the 8250's in the > > PLCC-44 > > > > on > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, there are 8250's (and 16450's and 16550's etc etc) in PLCCs, > > > > just > > > > > > > > > not in 1981... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't think practical considerations such as cost > > entered > > > > into > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > early decision stream in the PC development, once it reached the > > > > point > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > upper management was prepared to pull the plug if at least one > > > > milestone > > > > > > > > wasn't > > > > > > > > > > met. The way I heard the story from some of the guys who worked > > at > > > > Boca > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > that there wouldn't have been an IBM PC if Intel hadn't > > presented > > > > the > > > > > > guys > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > a board-level prototype of the '188 (not an application of the > > > > '188). > > > > > > While > > > > > > > > > > it's easy enough to believe that the entire project had > > deteriorated > > > > > > into a > > > > > > > > > > "Chinese fire drill," I can't believe that Intel would have had > > the > > > > > > brains > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > present a canned solution to them in time to pull the chestnuts > > from > > > > the > > > > > > > > fire. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst > > chip > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 8250. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which makes me wonder what possessed IBM to pick it > > for > > > > the > > > > > > PC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they chose active high edge triggered > > > > > > interrupts > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bus (wrong on both counts) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same reason they used 8 bits of an 8255 to read > > the KB > > > > > > shift > > > > > > > > > > register > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that had a (unused) tri-state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 15 13:34:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 14, 1 09:21:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 439 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/4df9f6e4/attachment.ksh From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 15 22:18:28 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > The PC = A horrible, amateurishly designed kluge > > > No arguments there! > > > > That is an insult to amateurs. SORRY... I guess I should have said a "horrible sloppily designed kluge" but I then I would be insulting sloppy people and kludges... > > Indeed it is... Why do people persist with the incorrect idea that > 'amateur' == 'poor quality' > > An 'amateur' is somebody who does something because they love it (as > opposed to doing it to get money or whatever). Surely some people doing > things because they love them love them enough to do them properly :-) > > -tony > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 14:37:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk >> Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were >> expensive. Yes, they were compared to random logic, but if board space was costly they were cheaper. >I never heard about pal's until about 1990. In some ways the peripheral PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. >chips are in a really sorry shape. You have vintage slow I/O (2 MHZ?) >or PC motherboard chip sets. Nothing in between. On my FPGA I can run >with a 250 ns memory cycle, but need to stretch it to 625 ns for I/O. Actually thats not true. BY 1981 you have peripherals in the 125ns read write timing range. Then again Z80 at that time was just hinting at 6mhz so z80 peripherals were of an according spped for that cpu. However, other parts were faster and often far cheaper. Personally if I wanted the SIO functionality for a NON-z80 system I'd never use the zilog part. Reason it was not cheap,nor was it easy to use for non-z80 systems. They were designed for the Z80, period. Unfortunatly they were slow. If you wanted faster the 83xx or 85xx parts from Zilog were a far better choice but Zbus was scary to most people and they weren't cheap. The other part of this is NEC and Intel did the MPSC (NEC D7201, INtel 8274) which was functionally identical to the SIO and was "tuned" for 8080/8085/8088/8086 style busses and faster as well. It was a more generic part than the SIO. Also around that time Signetics and friends were doing the 2681 part that was cheap and available in various flavors. Peripherals back then were quite varied. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 14:57:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <00a801c18674$879a28c0$82f19a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >the "vintage-PC" chipsets were 5 MHz parts, I do believe. That still wasn't >rocket-fast, but it was adequate for the 4.77 MHz i8088. Yes, and NEC and INTEL were selling 8mhz parts before then. The "PC" was slow by contemporary standards. I'd have likend it to building a 2mhz z80 system in 1981, equally poor thing to do. Allison From rhudson at cnonline.net Sat Dec 15 11:23:34 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: OK all you applesoft experts out there Message-ID: <3C1B8716.7040004@cnonline.net> How can I detect end of file while reading a text file? 10 print chr$(4)"Open mytextfile" 20 print chr$(4)"read mytextfile" 30 input a$ 40 rem process process process 50 if what who how then 30 60 print chr$(4)"close mytextfile" hep me please! (trying to write a dumb line editor) From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Dec 15 13:33:56 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: OK all you applesoft experts out there In-Reply-To: <3C1B8716.7040004@cnonline.net>; from rhudson@cnonline.net on Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:23:34AM -0800 References: <3C1B8716.7040004@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <20011215113356.G17862@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:23:34AM -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: > How can I detect end of file while reading a text file? > > 10 print chr$(4)"Open mytextfile" > 20 print chr$(4)"read mytextfile" > 30 input a$ > 40 rem process process process > 50 if what who how then 30 > 60 print chr$(4)"close mytextfile" Try this: 5 onerr goto 60 10 print chr$(4)"open mytextfile" 20 print chr$(4)"read mytextfile" 30 input a$ 40 rem process process process 50 goto 30 59 end 60 print chr$(4)"close mytextfile" 99 end Just assume the EOF isn't there. If it really is, line 30 will generate a BASIC "END OF DATA" error, which zaps you to line 60. A proper error- handling routine would check the error type and offending line number (I have to look up where they're stored). I assume line 40 gets a line from the file into memory. You obviously still have to write the code that manipulates the memory copy. The code to put memory back out to the file is pretty similar to the above. -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 15 13:35:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 14, 1 09:26:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 508 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/eb4a5fb6/attachment.ksh From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 15 14:50:36 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215121538.03196a88@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <002901c185aa$25e6ecf0$09c7fec7@dionysus> A couple of things... I've got an Ampro Series 100 enclosure that has a really mangled floppy cable. I seriously doubt that the cable I got with it is the one that belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that could give me the measurements and connector orientation & location of the floppy cable? Secondly, I don't know what "brand" SCSI controller is built into the board. The SCSI chip seems to be an NCR 5830, but that leads me nowhere in relation to whether or not it's an Adaptec or other model controller. I need to know the brand because the hd formatting software needs to know it. Thanks! G. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 15:44:26 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... Message-ID: <021301c185b2$e20006d0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> From: Gene Buckle >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that could give me >the measurements and connector orientation & location of the floppy >cable? Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. >Secondly, I don't know what "brand" SCSI controller is built into the >board. The SCSI chip seems to be an NCR 5830, but that leads me nowhere >in relation to whether or not it's an Adaptec or other model controller. >I need to know the brand because the hd formatting software needs to >know it. Your applying PC logic to it. It's is not Adaptec, i'ts just SCSI (SCS1 or II) host and the NCR5380 is one of the early and common chips used for that. The brand applies to the "other" board, what is known as a SCSI bridge board. Adaptec, Xybec, WD and other made them. You need to know what board and what drive to do the formatting. If you dont mind hacking Z80 code you can go frm an AMPRO LB with SCSI to a smaller SCSI drive (64mb or less, or the rest will be unused). Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 15 17:38:29 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <021301c185b2$e20006d0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000901c185c1$9994c250$09c7fec7@dionysus> > From: Gene Buckle > >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that > could give me > >the measurements and connector orientation & location of the floppy > >cable? > > > Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. > I was after the length of the cable and their locations on it. > >Secondly, I don't know what "brand" SCSI controller is built > into the > >board. The SCSI chip seems to be an NCR 5830, but that leads me > >nowhere in relation to whether or not it's an Adaptec or other model > >controller. I need to know the brand because the hd > formatting software > >needs to know it. > > > Your applying PC logic to it. It's is not Adaptec, i'ts just > SCSI (SCS1 or II) host and the NCR5380 is one of the early > and common chips used for that. > Funny, the Ampro docs list all these various controllers and whatnot. The software also _asks_ what controller it is going to talk to. The SCSI controller is part of the LB. What would the software consider the onboard controller to be? > formatting. If you dont mind hacking Z80 code you can go frm > an AMPRO LB with SCSI to a smaller SCSI drive (64mb or less, > or the rest will be unused). I've got a 20MB SCSI drive I'm trying to use. The bootrom rev tells me that it's got support for the SCSI controller. What coding has to be done? G. From donm at cts.com Sat Dec 15 21:30:06 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <000901c185c1$9994c250$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > From: Gene Buckle > > >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that > > could give me > > >the measurements and connector orientation & location of the floppy > > >cable? > > > > > > Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. > > > I was after the length of the cable and their locations on it. It should not have a twist like a PC cable, and can be a length of 34-conductor ribbon cable, Gene, with a 50-pin female header on each end. What ever length is needed. > > >Secondly, I don't know what "brand" SCSI controller is built > > into the > > >board. The SCSI chip seems to be an NCR 5830, but that leads me > > >nowhere in relation to whether or not it's an Adaptec or other model > > >controller. I need to know the brand because the hd > > formatting software > > >needs to know it. > > > > > > Your applying PC logic to it. It's is not Adaptec, i'ts just > > SCSI (SCS1 or II) host and the NCR5380 is one of the early > > and common chips used for that. > > > Funny, the Ampro docs list all these various controllers and whatnot. > The software also _asks_ what controller it is going to talk to. The > SCSI controller is part of the LB. What would the software consider the > onboard controller to be? What hard-drive are you using? If it is a SCSI drive? Is it set to ID=0? If so, choose either Seagate or Maxtor and give that a try. > > formatting. If you dont mind hacking Z80 code you can go frm > > an AMPRO LB with SCSI to a smaller SCSI drive (64mb or less, > > or the rest will be unused). > > I've got a 20MB SCSI drive I'm trying to use. The bootrom rev tells me > that it's got support for the SCSI controller. What coding has to be > done? If you have the proper version of the HD Utilities, you should not need to do any. - don > G. > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 15 23:23:01 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002401c185f1$bb4ea2f0$09c7fec7@dionysus> > > > > From: Gene Buckle > > > >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that > > > could give me > > > >the measurements and connector orientation & location of > the floppy > > > >cable? > > > > > > > > > Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. > > > > > I was after the length of the cable and their locations on it. > > It should not have a twist like a PC cable, and can be a > length of 34-conductor ribbon cable, Gene, with a 50-pin > female header on each end. What ever length is needed. > I know I can use any length of ribbon I want. What I'd like to know is what it was when it was new. (and it's 34 pin card-edge connectors that are needed :) ) > > What hard-drive are you using? If it is a SCSI drive? Is it > set to ID=0? If so, choose either Seagate or Maxtor and give > that a try. > The drive is a Miniscribe 8425S and AFAIK, it's set to ID 0 with the terminating resistors installed. Seagate or Maxtor is not listed as a _controller_ choice when HFORMAT is run. G. From donm at cts.com Sat Dec 15 23:53:12 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <002401c185f1$bb4ea2f0$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > From: Gene Buckle > > > > >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that > > > > could give me > > > > >the measurements and connector orientation & location of > > the floppy > > > > >cable? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. > > > > > > > I was after the length of the cable and their locations on it. > > > > It should not have a twist like a PC cable, and can be a > > length of 34-conductor ribbon cable, Gene, with a 50-pin > > female header on each end. What ever length is needed. > > > I know I can use any length of ribbon I want. What I'd like to know is > what it was when it was new. (and it's 34 pin card-edge connectors that > are needed :) ) Yes, I mispoke on both the number of conductors and the type of connectors. I jumped to the next question too soon. Sorry! > > > > What hard-drive are you using? If it is a SCSI drive? Is it > > set to ID=0? If so, choose either Seagate or Maxtor and give > > that a try. > > > The drive is a Miniscribe 8425S and AFAIK, it's set to ID 0 with the > terminating resistors installed. Seagate or Maxtor is not listed as a > _controller_ choice when HFORMAT is run. I forwarded a later version to you that does. - don From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 11:30:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... References: <002401c185f1$bb4ea2f0$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: <004c01c18657$4d13bb20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you're making up a new cable, use as little cable as you can comfortably make work. Don't stress the cable, but don't have too much cable, as it interferes with air movement in the box. I'm curious about something here ... Was this particular system ever observed to run as configured? I've never owned a prepackaged AMPRO box/system, so I have no experience with them on which to base any guesses. With a SCSI drive and no bridge, the thing should either run or not, though, and if it doesn't there's probably a good reason. I'm not in a good situation to help you out with this, at the moment, but I could send you a bridge controller of the sort that the firmware is supposed to recognize on its own. With that you can test the Little Board side of things. The Little Board supports the Xebec controller as well as a number of models from OMTI, ADAPTEC, and others. You'd have to attach an ST506/412-interfaced drive that works properly at the other end, though. The Adaptec models I've got are capable of either RLL or MFM, depending on which model you use and, of course, which sort of drive you use. If the box is not set up for a bridge board, I'd try to find a compatible drive from the listed options, however. It's likely there is an accommodation for a bridge board, or at least that there's space so that you can attach the bridge board to a half-height or full-height 5-1/4" drive by means of short (0.25" or shorter) standoffs. Once you've done that, you merely need to "low-level" (in PC parlance) format the attached drive with the bridge board in place, and the PREP it so that the required information is available at power-on, so the system can use it. As I wrote before, I've not used the SCSI on a Little Board, having used my own interface to various Western Digital WD100x-series boards instead, since the SCSI adapter hadn't even been announced when I got my Little Boards. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:23 PM Subject: RE: Ampro Little Board questions... > > > > > > From: Gene Buckle > > > > >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that > > > > could give me > > > > >the measurements and connector orientation & location of > > the floppy > > > > >cable? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. > > > > > > > I was after the length of the cable and their locations on it. > > > > It should not have a twist like a PC cable, and can be a > > length of 34-conductor ribbon cable, Gene, with a 50-pin > > female header on each end. What ever length is needed. > > > I know I can use any length of ribbon I want. What I'd like to know is > what it was when it was new. (and it's 34 pin card-edge connectors that > are needed :) ) > > > > > What hard-drive are you using? If it is a SCSI drive? Is it > > set to ID=0? If so, choose either Seagate or Maxtor and give > > that a try. > > > The drive is a Miniscribe 8425S and AFAIK, it's set to ID 0 with the > terminating resistors installed. Seagate or Maxtor is not listed as a > _controller_ choice when HFORMAT is run. > > G. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 21:36:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... References: <021301c185b2$e20006d0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <007101c185e2$d25b81c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little Boards I have, since they use the standard floppy disk cable, which has no twists or cuts. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Ampro Little Board questions... > From: Gene Buckle > >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that could give me > >the measurements and connector orientation & location of the floppy > >cable? > > > Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. > > >Secondly, I don't know what "brand" SCSI controller is built into the > >board. The SCSI chip seems to be an NCR 5830, but that leads me nowhere > >in relation to whether or not it's an Adaptec or other model controller. > >I need to know the brand because the hd formatting software needs to > >know it. > > > Your applying PC logic to it. It's is not Adaptec, i'ts just SCSI > (SCS1 or II) host and the NCR5380 is one of the early and common > chips used for that. > > The brand applies to the "other" board, what is known as a SCSI > bridge board. Adaptec, Xybec, WD and other made them. You > need to know what board and what drive to do the formatting. If > you dont mind hacking Z80 code you can go frm an AMPRO LB > with SCSI to a smaller SCSI drive (64mb or less, or the rest will > be unused). > > Allison > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 15 23:25:20 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <007101c185e2$d25b81c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <002501c185f2$0e3aa9f0$09c7fec7@dionysus> > > > A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little > Boards I have, since they use the standard floppy disk cable, > which has no twists or cuts. > > Dick > Keeerect! Which is why the drive select jumpers are used! What I need to know is the length and connector location (as measured from one end or the other) for the Series 100 enclosure. That's all, nothing fancy. G. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Dec 16 01:15:32 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <007101c185e2$d25b81c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <021301c185b2$e20006d0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011215231305.00a53ec0@mail.zipcon.net> At 08:36 PM 12/15/01 -0700, you wrote: >A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little Boards I have, since >they use the standard floppy disk cable, which has no twists or cuts. > >Dick it should work if both drives were strapped at DS1 (iirc) all the flop does is swap the drive select lines around so IBM (and clone makers) didn't have to change any jumpers on the drive. I've used twist floppy cables in morrow, Kaypro, and a few other CP/M boxen when I was in a hurry to get a machine back up and going... From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 13:49:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... References: <021301c185b2$e20006d0$4ef19a8d@ajp166> <5.1.0.14.2.20011215231305.00a53ec0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <007a01c1866a$c472d580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ISTR that the cut/flip turn out using MotorOn as drive select and a swapping at least one other pair. Correct me if that's not the case. Using the twisted cable allowed them (IBM) to order all the configuration done at the drive mfg, which is fine for them, but it is, otherwise a stupid, Stupid, STUPID thing to do. Allison's notion of cutting off the cable after the first connector would work, except that my Little Boards use a PCB edge connector socket rather than an IDC pin-field socket at the controller end. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Reed" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 12:15 AM Subject: Re: Ampro Little Board questions... > At 08:36 PM 12/15/01 -0700, you wrote: > >A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little Boards I have, since > >they use the standard floppy disk cable, which has no twists or cuts. > > > >Dick > > it should work if both drives were strapped at DS1 (iirc) all the flop does > is swap the drive select lines around so IBM (and clone makers) didn't have > to change any jumpers on the drive. I've used twist floppy cables in > morrow, Kaypro, and a few other CP/M boxen when I was in a hurry to get a > machine back up and going... > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 15 21:32:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... References: <002901c185aa$25e6ecf0$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: <004d01c185e2$4f6f93a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> AFAIK, the AMPRO boxes were just pieces of sheet metal, hence didn't have any effect on the floppy cables at all. Before the IBM PC, floppy cables were flat ribbon cables with, in the case of the AMPRO Little Board with which I'm familiar, there was a 34-contact PCB socket on each end of the cable. The SCSI adapter is not part of the AMPRO Little Board, but, rather, is a separate board about the same size as the Little Board, which is a bridge board. In some cases, according to what I've read, the Little-Board <=> SCSI-adapter, of which there are 2-3 implementations, can talk directly to some drives via some adapters without any additional prep, but may require a format routine in most cases and a prep (with which it writes the information on the drive, so that it can identify it next time) in any case. IIRC, the XEBEC 1410 was a common board in this application and was the only one I've ever seen in one of their "bookshelf" systems. Several others are supported, however. You'll probably have to look inside the box to see whether there's a bridge controller, and whose and which model it is. If there's no bridge controller, the drive is one of the early models with the integrated controller on board. Don Maslin sent me the information I have stashed somewhere I can't locate at the moment, but it identifies and describes procedures and models to which they apply, albeit within their listings, for the most part. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... > A couple of things... > > I've got an Ampro Series 100 enclosure that has a really mangled floppy > cable. I seriously doubt that the cable I got with it is the one that > belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that could give me > the measurements and connector orientation & location of the floppy > cable? > > Secondly, I don't know what "brand" SCSI controller is built into the > board. The SCSI chip seems to be an NCR 5830, but that leads me nowhere > in relation to whether or not it's an Adaptec or other model controller. > I need to know the brand because the hd formatting software needs to > know it. > > Thanks! > > G. > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 22:19:47 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:09 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... Message-ID: <005301c185ea$187a3c30$4ef19a8d@ajp166> I only needed one floppy and with the twisted end cut off it was perfect. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, December 15, 2001 11:00 PM Subject: Re: Ampro Little Board questions... >A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little Boards I have, since >they use the standard floppy disk cable, which has no twists or cuts. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 2:44 PM >Subject: Re: Ampro Little Board questions... > > >> From: Gene Buckle >> >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that could give me >> >the measurements and connector orientation & location of the floppy >> >cable? >> >> >> Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. >> >> >Secondly, I don't know what "brand" SCSI controller is built into the >> >board. The SCSI chip seems to be an NCR 5830, but that leads me nowhere >> >in relation to whether or not it's an Adaptec or other model controller. >> >I need to know the brand because the hd formatting software needs to >> >know it. >> >> >> Your applying PC logic to it. It's is not Adaptec, i'ts just SCSI >> (SCS1 or II) host and the NCR5380 is one of the early and common >> chips used for that. >> >> The brand applies to the "other" board, what is known as a SCSI >> bridge board. Adaptec, Xybec, WD and other made them. You >> need to know what board and what drive to do the formatting. If >> you dont mind hacking Z80 code you can go frm an AMPRO LB >> with SCSI to a smaller SCSI drive (64mb or less, or the rest will >> be unused). >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 22:21:42 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... Message-ID: <005401c185ea$18e53300$4ef19a8d@ajp166> From: Don Maslin >It should not have a twist like a PC cable, and can be a length of >34-conductor ribbon cable, Gene, with a 50-pin female header on each >end. What ever length is needed. Ah, dont you mean 34 pin? 50 pin would be the SCSI. Allison From donm at cts.com Sat Dec 15 23:28:23 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <005401c185ea$18e53300$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > From: Don Maslin > >It should not have a twist like a PC cable, and can be a length of > >34-conductor ribbon cable, Gene, with a 50-pin female header on each > >end. What ever length is needed. > > > Ah, dont you mean 34 pin? 50 pin would be the SCSI. > > Allison Thanks Allison. Indeed I do! I guess I was thinking ahead to the question on the SCSI controller. - don From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 10:13:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... References: <005401c185ea$18e53300$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <002f01c1864c$a7d25360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think what was meant was that the 50-pin connector is at one interface, and the 34-pin at another. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:21 PM Subject: Re: Ampro Little Board questions... > From: Don Maslin > >It should not have a twist like a PC cable, and can be a length of > >34-conductor ribbon cable, Gene, with a 50-pin female header on each > >end. What ever length is needed. > > > Ah, dont you mean 34 pin? 50 pin would be the SCSI. > > Allison > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 22:47:20 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... Message-ID: <005f01c185ee$4ceaee20$4ef19a8d@ajp166> >> > From: Gene Buckle >> Funny, the Ampro docs list all these various controllers and whatnot. >> The software also _asks_ what controller it is going to talk to. The >> SCSI controller is part of the LB. What would the software consider the >> onboard controller to be? NCR5380! But that's half the picture. The other half is the SCSI controller on the other end of the cable. What I meant by PC logic is that in PCs you plug in an adaptec controller or whoever and you need a driver specific to that controller. The AMPRO-LB has the onboard NCR5380 which is the controller and the software specific to that is in both the bootrom and CP/M bios. The other peice of that that does not conform to the PC standard is the other end of the 50pin SCSI cable is the "drive" and back then the drive was MFM (ST225 typically) with a Bridge adaptor to go from SCSI to MFM and that could be done with a board made by Xybec, Adaptec or Western Digital. Now, those bridge boards did not behave exactly the same like modern SCSI drives so the "driver" had an install/init that tweeked the CP/M bios to conform as well as partition the disk for CP/M use. The CP/M Bios (and bootrom for that fact) do not query the drive for it's config like PCs. It must be hard coded into tables in the bios. The bridge controllers require this info to be pushed into them before they can access the physical drive. This is in contrast to SCSI drives that have the tables integral to themselves. FYI: CP/M supported only 8mb per logical drive so a ST225(20mb) was usually partitioned into three logical drives (for ampro that would be A, C and D). Drive B is reserved for floppy as is pseudo drive E. Drive A(physical drive 0) is always the bootable drive and can be either floppy or hard disk. The tables for logicla drives are limited to 16 logical drives (A through P) by CP/M itself and if memory serves only 10 logical hard disk partitions in the Ampro HD CP/M bios. So any drive larger than 80mb cannot be fully accessed. There are ways around the latter problem but that's a different issue. >What hard-drive are you using? If it is a SCSI drive? Is it set to >ID=0? If so, choose either Seagate or Maxtor and give that a try. I used a 45mb fujitsu. The boot roms expect it to be ID=0. >> > formatting. If you dont mind hacking Z80 code you can go frm >> > an AMPRO LB with SCSI to a smaller SCSI drive (64mb or less, >> > or the rest will be unused). >> >> I've got a 20MB SCSI drive I'm trying to use. The bootrom rev tells me >> that it's got support for the SCSI controller. What coding has to be >> done? CP/M bios which is not the boot rom. The reason for that is the Drive tables and the controller tables in the install(HDINIT) and format(HDFMT) will not work for all but a limited subset of possible drive/controller setups. The only SCSI drive directly supported was the ST157N and maybe the ST296N might work. >If you have the proper version of the HD Utilities, you should not need >to do any. > - don Only if you have a supported controller and drive, otherwise they do not help you much. Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 15 23:30:08 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <005f01c185ee$4ceaee20$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <002601c185f2$b99fc500$09c7fec7@dionysus> > CP/M bios which is not the boot rom. The reason for that is > the Drive tables and the controller tables in the > install(HDINIT) and format(HDFMT) will not work for all but a > limited subset of possible drive/controller setups. The only > SCSI drive directly supported was the ST157N and maybe the > ST296N might work. > > >If you have the proper version of the HD Utilities, you > should not need > >to do any. > > - don > > > Only if you have a supported controller and drive, otherwise > they do not help you much. > So since I've got this Miniscribe 8425S, I'm totally fscked and it's basically a nice floppy-only paper weight. Oh joy. Be still my heart. G. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 13:44:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... References: <002601c185f2$b99fc500$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: <006a01c1866a$1d7bea00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I wouldn't be so extreme in my feeling of doom, Gene. There are easy ways to recover. You could get one of the "approved" drives, which might cost $5 on eBay (plus shipping - be sure to get the thing insured!) or one of the "approved" bridge boards and a suitable drive. regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:30 PM Subject: RE: Ampro Little Board questions... > > CP/M bios which is not the boot rom. The reason for that is > > the Drive tables and the controller tables in the > > install(HDINIT) and format(HDFMT) will not work for all but a > > limited subset of possible drive/controller setups. The only > > SCSI drive directly supported was the ST157N and maybe the > > ST296N might work. > > > > >If you have the proper version of the HD Utilities, you > > should not need > > >to do any. > > > - don > > > > > > Only if you have a supported controller and drive, otherwise > > they do not help you much. > > > > So since I've got this Miniscribe 8425S, I'm totally fscked and it's > basically a nice floppy-only paper weight. Oh joy. Be still my heart. > > G. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 11:01:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... References: <005f01c185ee$4ceaee20$4ef19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <003501c18653$56bfc320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The BIOS, meaning the lowest-level hardware<=>software boundary, doesn't live in a ROM as on a PC or many other types of hardware, but, in the case of CP/M is one of several parts of the OS. Some of them use the ROM contents, while some don't. Others use it only when they want to, and map it out so they can use that (scarce) address space in other ways. This system is NOT a PC. There are, if I understand Don Maslins comments of long ago, some versions of the Little Board that are, in fact, intended to run MS-DOS. This may not be one of them. Perhaps it would be well to open the box, read the numbers on the various items inside, e.g. Little Board, bridge controller if there is one, hard disk, floppy disk drive, etc, and share that information with the rest of us. Answers could then, perhaps, be more directed at the specifics of your situation. It's unlikely that the software, in any sense, has the perception that "controller" is "onboard" since there wasn't one. The NCR 5380, unlike the ANA 1542 board in an old PC, is an adapter, not a controller. Modern (meaning relative to the era of the Little Board) SCSI drives require a specific signalling protocol. The NCR5380 provides that signalling protocol, and the software running on the Little Board does the control task. The bridge controller has, at one end, the Little Board running its software and, at the other end, a physical drive that uses ST506/412 protocol. The pre-1986 "SCSI" implementations, some of which were, in fact, SASI, but are handled appropriately by the Little Board BIOS, had no "common command set" as was standardized by the adoption of the SCSI standard, hence the firmware/software available in the Little Board repertoire is required as a tool to ensure that the proper functions occur in the desired sequence. Bridge controllers were VERY popular, and, hence, were available in quite a varied array. Unfortunately, the lack of standards, up to the adoption of the SCSI standard, required that, in the case of the Little Board, among others, the user provide details about the hardware that invervened between the Little Board and the media. In the case of a bridge controller, the software has to incorporate information about the physical parameters of the drive before it can send appropriate commands to the bridge controller. Later drives, those with the SCSI connector on them, simply incorporated the rather involved logic on the bridge controller and the rather simple logic on the drive into a single set of logic, thereby yielding a SCSI drive. This wasn't widely done, though some manufacturers risked it, until a standard was adopted. One of the popular manufacturers of pre-SCSI, but useable in this environment, drives was XEBEC, who also made drives specifically tailored for use with Apple Computer Co. products. The write-ups accompanying the data I got from Don Maslin clearly refers to some of these integrated drives, but I'd caution anyone to be certain of what they're doing before expecting a pre-1986 drive to "plug-and-play" in this environment. It's unlikely anything will be damaged, but having the knowledge will help avoid disappointment. The SCSI adapter address should be 7, IIRC, (that's certainly the most common default) and the bridge board should respond to ID=0. The drive, if it's SCSI/SASI, should be at ID=0, and should be jumpered to respond to DS0 if it's an ST506/412 model with a bridge controller. The prep program is NOT, IIRC, a formatter but merely configures your target drive to function within the Little Board framework. There's a separate formatter program, unless I've forgotten something. The floppy disk has absolutely nothing to do with the hard disk interface, BTW, and the default cable for a floppy disk is a plain and simple, no-twist-no-cut-no-nothing, ribbon cable with the appropriate connectors at each end so that it fits. Checking where the ground pins are located will straighten out any confusion. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:47 PM Subject: Re: Ampro Little Board questions... > >> > From: Gene Buckle > >> Funny, the Ampro docs list all these various controllers and whatnot. > >> The software also _asks_ what controller it is going to talk to. The > >> SCSI controller is part of the LB. What would the software consider > > > the onboard controller to be? > > NCR5380! But that's half the picture. The other half is the SCSI > Allison > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 16 13:37:22 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <003501c18653$56bfc320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <003c01c18669$154c1400$09c7fec7@dionysus> What is so bloody difficult about this? It's not like I'm asking questions about quantum mechanics or something. Keerist. I had two questions. The one about the SCSI interface has been answered to my satisfaction. The second however is not only the easiest of the two, but seeming the most difficult to answer. What I want to know in the simplest terms IS: How long was the original 2 drive floppy cable that was shipped with the Ampro Series 100 enclosure? Where were the connectors on that cable located as measured from the computer end. If you happen to own a Series 100 box, I'd be most appriciative if you'd open it up and let me know what you find out about the cable. If you _don't_ own one of these things, I don't want to hear from you. Period. I know how to build my own cables. I know what connectors are required. (I even have a purpose built connector compression tool!) I'm trying to restore this machine to _factory_ condition. Smart ass comments about making my own cables (while simultaneously alluding that I don't know what the fsck I'm doing) is not only not wanted, but just pisses me off. If I'd wanted to make a generic, "will do the job" cable, I wouldn't have asked about the original one! FYI, the machine is built for CP/M. It runs CP/M quite happily. Even with ZCPR3. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 09:39:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... Message-ID: <000301c18648$5b3df940$82f19a8d@ajp166> From: Gene Buckle >I know I can use any length of ribbon I want. What I'd like to know is >what it was when it was new. (and it's 34 pin card-edge connectors that >are needed :) ) I take them off old PC floppy cables. >The drive is a Miniscribe 8425S and AFAIK, it's set to ID 0 with the >terminating resistors installed. Seagate or Maxtor is not listed as a >_controller_ choice when HFORMAT is run. Yep! It's possible to use that drive but the Ampro provided tools only recognized drives from the era, there were many good choices in later years. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 13:48:32 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... Message-ID: <007201c1866c$195e3980$82f19a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >I'm curious about something here ... Was this particular system ever observed to >run as configured? I've never owned a prepackaged AMPRO box/system, so I have >no experience with them on which to base any guesses. With a SCSI drive and no >bridge, the thing should either run or not, though, and if it doesn't there's >probably a good reason. Over the years I've seen two and added hard disks to them (purchased without). If you have the right controller and drive it's an assemble the peices project. Those included some of the early SCSI drives. >I'm not in a good situation to help you out with this, at the moment, but I >could send you a bridge controller of the sort that the firmware is supposed to >recognize on its own. With that you can test the Little Board side of things. >The Little Board supports the Xebec controller as well as a number of models >from OMTI, ADAPTEC, and others. You'd have to attach an ST506/412-interfaced >drive that works properly at the other end, though. The Adaptec models I've got >are capable of either RLL or MFM, depending on which model you use and, of If you match the known configs it's pretty straightforward, if not you need to go into the bios and set up the config by hand. The latter is a bit less obvious as the Ampro BIOS for hard disk was done in three layers, one for the physical SCSI driver, then the SCSI protocal for the controller target and then hard disk interface. There are several added tables not normally seen in a CP/M bios. Those tables allow for things like assigning logical unit 3 (whatever it may be) as drive A:. As BIOS for CP/M go it's very sophisticated. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 14:53:49 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... Message-ID: <00a701c18674$87154150$82f19a8d@ajp166> From: Gene Buckle >What is so bloody difficult about this? It's not like I'm asking >questions about quantum mechanics or something. Keerist. No one knows or has seen one. >I had two questions. The one about the SCSI interface has been answered >to my satisfaction. The second however is not only the easiest of the >two, but seeming the most difficult to answer. Seriously it's been about 14 years since I've seen one. It's length was long enough to reach with neat folds. Don't know the exact number of inches. However that FDC controller worked fine with 24 inches of cable for another project. >If you happen to own a Series 100 box, I'd be most appriciative if you'd >open it up and let me know what you find out about the cable. If you >_don't_ own one of these things, I don't want to hear from you. Period. I bet you dont turn up many Series 100 boxes. >I know how to build my own cables. I know what connectors are required. >(I even have a purpose built connector compression tool!) I'm trying to >restore this machine to _factory_ condition. Smart ass comments about >making my own cables (while simultaneously alluding that I don't know >what the fsck I'm doing) is not only not wanted, but just pisses me off. >If I'd wanted to make a generic, "will do the job" cable, I wouldn't >have asked about the original one! The Ampro cab was not common as most bought the dry board being cheaper and use whatever package was handy or one that met their spec. Even my Ampro LB manuals do not specify a length! >FYI, the machine is built for CP/M. It runs CP/M quite happily. Even >with ZCPR3. We know that too. I run on here. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 15 14:53:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <200112150555.VAA09472@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 14, 1 09:55:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011215/9e45c936/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 15 20:18:49 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: if you hadn't already known this about the PDP-8 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 15, 1 08:53:32 pm" Message-ID: <200112160218.SAA09548@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > (b) using my HP95LX and HP100LX palmtops as serial terminals rather more > > > than I use them for anything else. > > I love my twin 95LXes, but their battery monitors went bananas and now they > > constantly claim the batteries are almost dead, even when I just replaced > Just to check the obvious : It is complaining about the main batteries > and not the lithium cell that's used for memory retention when you're > changing the main battery, right? Correct. > > them. Both of my 95s have this problem and it's really very annoying. Done > > much repair work on these to tell me where to start looking? :-) > > From what I remember, most of the low-battery circuitry is in the large > custom HP chip inside. I don't know if there are any relevant external > components, though. Phooey, that's what I was afraid of. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 15 15:32:55 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end References: Message-ID: <007901c185b0$0fae3d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I felt it appropriate to respond, since I own three S/390's myself. I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? JEA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 15:54:26 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Re: Is there no end (John Allain) References: <007901c185b0$0fae3d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <15387.50834.134058.648572@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, John Allain wrote: > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 15 20:20:15 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <15387.50834.134058.648572@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 15, 1 04:54:26 pm" Message-ID: <200112160220.SAA10394@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. And one to me. Then he has one, and that's somewhat less inappropriate. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 15 19:33:43 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end References: <200112160220.SAA10394@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3C1BF9F7.27CC3C82@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > > > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > > > It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. > > And one to me. Then he has one, and that's somewhat less inappropriate. ;-) > Why collect 390's? 360's are more impressive! :) BTW does the 390 architecture still emulate the 360's? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 15 22:52:50 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Re: Is there no end (Ben Franchuk) References: <200112160220.SAA10394@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3C1BF9F7.27CC3C82@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15388.10402.344051.9770@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 15, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > > > > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > > > > > It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. > > > > And one to me. Then he has one, and that's somewhat less inappropriate. ;-) > > Why collect 390's? 360's are more impressive! :) I suspect Sridhar doesn't have the S/390s for "historic" purposes...Ordinarily I'd just shut up and let him say that, but I just talked with him on the phone, he's outside of Richmond on his way down here. I'm going to make him eat some beef while he's here. :-) > BTW does the 390 architecture still emulate the 360's? I believe so, yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From vance at ikickass.org Sun Dec 16 12:31:00 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <3C1BF9F7.27CC3C82@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > > > > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > > > > > It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. > > > > And one to me. Then he has one, and that's somewhat less inappropriate. ;-) > > > Why collect 390's? 360's are more impressive! :) > BTW does the 390 architecture still emulate the 360's? I don't *only* have 390's, you know... Even if the S/390 doesn't directly emulate the S/360, you should still be able to do it by nesting VM with older versions of VM. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 13:02:25 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end References: Message-ID: <3C1CEFC1.2FAA4000@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I don't *only* have 390's, you know... No I did not. Got a web page? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 15 15:57:07 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <007901c185b0$0fae3d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > > I felt it appropriate to respond, since I own three S/390's myself. > > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? When your primary collection is mainframes. Peace... Sridhar From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 17:55:36 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > >> > I felt it appropriate to respond, since I own three S/390's myself. >> >> I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. >> Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > >When your primary collection is mainframes. Man...I'd love to have the kind of space needed to have more than one or two of the beasts! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Sun Dec 16 12:25:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >> > I felt it appropriate to respond, since I own three S/390's myself. > >> > >> I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > >> Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > > > >When your primary collection is mainframes. > > Man...I'd love to have the kind of space needed to have more > than one or two of the beasts! It isn't the space that's the problem. It's the power. Peace... Sridhar From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 16 13:27:33 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Man...I'd love to have the kind of space needed to have more >> than one or two of the beasts! > >It isn't the space that's the problem. It's the power. If you don't have the space though, the whole power problem becomes moot. Due to everything of mine being housed in a single room on shelves, it borders on being utter chaos. Amazingly I still manage to know where most things are when I go to look for something. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From UberTechnoid at home.com Sat Dec 15 16:22:05 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011215222216.LEMT1091.femail30.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I was trying to remember that when I posted my original reply to this thread. Reading your reply made it instantly come to mind. IDT made the Winchip cpu. Regards, Jeff In , on 12/14/01 at 03:54 PM, Matthew Sell said: >There was a big marketing effort by the likes of Cyrix, AMD, and whoever >made the "WinChip" to convince people that those processors would run >Windows okay. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Sat Dec 15 16:24:19 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011215223055.BQTD25389.femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> That is just right. Airc, IBM would'nt buy Intel's processor for the IBM PC unless Intel had multiple sources. This was to ensure supply to IBM if Intel's plants were overridden by bugs, damages by an infusion of dust (or aluminum powder.....;-)). AMD at least (and I think Seimens and NEC as well) was contracted to produce the 8088 cpu. AMD was given all info needed to clone the chips. This relationship continued through the 80286 and 80386 processors, but became very strained as AMD was making 386's cheaper and imho better than the intel products by modifying the Intel designs. Intel and AMD ended up in court over the 80486 chip ; intel claiming that the contract between it and AMD did not include information or production of this CPU. AMD was eventually forced to produce a 'clean room' 80486 design but because of the delays caused by the litigation they had plenty of time to do it. AMD continued to produce 80486 cpus in quantity but these chips contained no Intel proprietary knowlege. (Err.. Having a good look at the intel design docs probably didn't hurt AMD's clean-room effort......) Since those times, Intel and AMD have had a sort of blood feud. Regards, Jeff In , on 12/14/01 at 04:45 PM, "Russ Blakeman" said: >Matter of fact AMD was subcontracted at one point to MAKE processors for >Intel, when demands were up and they couldn't meet market requirements - >and many of the AMD made Intel branded chips are better than many of the >Intel ones. I don't remember if it was the 386 era or 486 though. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 18:00:07 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <20011215223055.BQTD25389.femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: <20011215223055.BQTD25389.femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: >That is just right. Airc, IBM would'nt buy Intel's processor for the IBM >PC unless Intel had multiple sources. This was to ensure supply to IBM if >Intel's plants were overridden by bugs, damages by an infusion of dust (or >aluminum powder.....;-)). AMD at least (and I think Seimens and NEC as >well) was contracted to produce the 8088 cpu. AMD was given all info >needed to clone the chips. > >This relationship continued through the 80286 and 80386 processors, but >became very strained as AMD was making 386's cheaper and imho better than >the intel products by modifying the Intel designs. Intel and AMD ended up >in court over the 80486 chip ; intel claiming that the contract between it >and AMD did not include information or production of this CPU. AMD was >eventually forced to produce a 'clean room' 80486 design but because of >the delays caused by the litigation they had plenty of time to do it. AMD's faster coprocessors also caused quite a problem if I remember correctly. Harris also pushed the 286 faster than any of the other sources. I remember PC Magazine running an article comparing various 286 machines with a headline that mimicked the Corvair's 'Unsafe at any speed' headline. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From UberTechnoid at home.com Sun Dec 16 01:11:59 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011216071301.FADR4995.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> How about......: Remember the (iirc) Compaq ad. Thier 286 had a meg of static ram onboard. The ad depicted an empty desk with two tire tracks burt into it and a surprised user behind. Regards, Jeff In , on 12/15/01 at 07:00 PM, Jeff Hellige said: >AMD's faster coprocessors also caused quite a problem if I >remember correctly. Harris also pushed the 286 faster than any of the >other sources. I remember PC Magazine running an article comparing >various 286 machines with a headline that mimicked the Corvair's 'Unsafe >at any speed' headline -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 09:10:33 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: RE: Is there no end (UberTechnoid@home.com) References: <20011216071301.FADR4995.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <15388.47465.183883.653541@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > Remember the (iirc) Compaq ad. Thier 286 had a meg of static ram onboard. > The ad depicted an empty desk with two tire tracks burt into it and a > surprised user behind. Static RAM? Are you sure? I've never heard of static RAM in a PeeCee. That's neat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 11:07:56 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end References: <20011216071301.FADR4995.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> <15388.47465.183883.653541@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C1CD4EC.F1E12F43@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 16, UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > Remember the (iirc) Compaq ad. Thier 286 had a meg of static ram onboard. > > The ad depicted an empty desk with two tire tracks burt into it and a > > surprised user behind. > > Static RAM? Are you sure? I've never heard of static RAM in a > PeeCee. That's neat. Yes there is some -- it is called cache.:) I suspect a sever type PC is more likely to have static than dynamic. I never did like PC marketing -- clock speed -- not memory speed used as a benchmark. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 11:30:47 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Re: Is there no end (Ben Franchuk) References: <20011216071301.FADR4995.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> <15388.47465.183883.653541@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C1CD4EC.F1E12F43@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15388.55879.204080.347884@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > Remember the (iirc) Compaq ad. Thier 286 had a meg of static ram onboard. > > > The ad depicted an empty desk with two tire tracks burt into it and a > > > surprised user behind. > > > > Static RAM? Are you sure? I've never heard of static RAM in a > > PeeCee. That's neat. > > Yes there is some -- it is called cache.:) I suspect a sever type > PC is more likely to have static than dynamic. I never did like PC > marketing -- clock speed -- not memory speed used as a benchmark. Nonono, I mean *main* memory, not cache. I sincerely doubt there are any PeeCees in the 486-or-newer arena with static RAM for main memory. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From UberTechnoid at home.com Sat Dec 15 16:32:26 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011215223206.VRAR11537.femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> In , on 12/14/01 at 04:45 PM, "Russ Blakeman" said: >And that stigma just happened to be floundered by many inadvertant Intel >marketing means - don't know if they intended to make buyers think that >AMD was anything less but the general public started thinking it. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Dec 15 19:17:54 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end Message-ID: In a message dated 12/15/2001 7:18:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, jhellige@earthlink.net writes: << >That is just right. Airc, IBM would'nt buy Intel's processor for the IBM >PC unless Intel had multiple sources. This was to ensure supply to IBM if >Intel's plants were overridden by bugs, damages by an infusion of dust (or >aluminum powder.....;-)). AMD at least (and I think Seimens and NEC as >well) was contracted to produce the 8088 cpu. AMD was given all info >needed to clone the chips. > >This relationship continued through the 80286 and 80386 processors, but >became very strained as AMD was making 386's cheaper and imho better than >the intel products by modifying the Intel designs. Intel and AMD ended up >in court over the 80486 chip ; intel claiming that the contract between it >and AMD did not include information or production of this CPU. AMD was >eventually forced to produce a 'clean room' 80486 design but because of >the delays caused by the litigation they had plenty of time to do it. AMD's faster coprocessors also caused quite a problem if I remember correctly. Harris also pushed the 286 faster than any of the other sources. I remember PC Magazine running an article comparing various 286 machines with a headline that mimicked the Corvair's 'Unsafe at any speed' headline. >> I've always liked AMD stuff. My first PC I got myself was an AMD 386 dx40. I couldnt decide whether to get a 486-25 and didnt quite understand the sx/dx issue. Ran OS/2 great on 8 meg. Later, I found that the AMD 486 dx2/80 was cheaper than Intel's 66 so I got that and never any problems with it. -- Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Dec 15 23:52:00 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end Message-ID: <3C1BC600.19613.2062DC69@localhost> Sridhar wrote... > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone > one as slow as PPC. Don't tell that to the folks at http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/ (Of course, it depends on what your definition of "on" is). Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From vance at ikickass.org Sun Dec 16 12:35:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <3C1BC600.19613.2062DC69@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Brian Knittel wrote: > Sridhar wrote... > > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone > > one as slow as PPC. > > Don't tell that to the folks at http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/ > (Of course, it depends on what your definition of "on" is). Notice I didn't say that OS/390 doesn't run on microprocessors... I said S/390 doesn't run on microprocessors. Peace... Sridhar From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Dec 15 20:18:32 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN Message-ID: <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default> I spent most of today checking out most of my favorite places and found few goodies to take back to Texas. A lot of it is too new to list here but at the low prices I could not pass the items up. I picked a April 1985 issue of COMPUTE! with pictures and a article on a Commodore LCD called a second-generation lap portable with 80 x 16 flip-up display, 32K RAM, internal modem, and eight built-in programs for under $600. Has anyone every seen one in real life or better yet does anyone own one? It looks pretty cool in the photo shown in the mag. Some of the other items are listed below. 1. ICD printer connector cable for Atari 850 new in unopened package 2. Tandy cat#26-1398 6' RS232C cable new unopened package 3. Commodore Model 1351 mouse 4. Several Sega Master System cartridges 5. Compute! March 1985 issue some good stuff in it also. 6. Several mousepads for the collection 7. A RAD robot 8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper 9. Some Apple and Toshiba technical manuals 10. Tele-games Video Arcade (Sears) with 2- controllers and 2- paddles, also came with 3 cartridges 11. A NeXT keyboard (pn 2122) and mouse (pn 193), the mouse was a style I had not seen before. Well that's all I can list as the others are not classic yet. Keep Computing From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Dec 15 20:32:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default> References: <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default> Message-ID: >11. A NeXT keyboard (pn 2122) and mouse (pn 193), the mouse was a style >I had not seen before. NeXT keyboard with L-shaped 'enter' key and retangular two button mouse, both non-ADB for older NeXTstations and Cubes. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bpope at wordstock.com Sat Dec 15 20:37:29 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Dec 15, 01 08:18:32 pm Message-ID: <200112160237.VAA07183@wordstock.com> > 1985 issue of COMPUTE! with pictures and a article on a Commodore LCD > called a second-generation lap portable with 80 x 16 flip-up display, > 32K RAM, internal modem, and eight built-in programs for under $600. > Has anyone every seen one in real life or better yet does anyone own > one? It looks pretty cool in the photo shown in the mag. Some of the If anyone does have one, it would be a prototype... > 8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper Ummm.. That would be *the* Grace Hopper?! > 10. Tele-games Video Arcade (Sears) with 2- controllers and 2- paddles, > also came with 3 cartridges Is this a Sear's branded Atari 2600? Cheers, Bryan From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Dec 16 08:05:55 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Sears/Atari was Re: My Last Day Of Finds in MN References: <200112160237.VAA07183@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <00f901c1863a$c84b7ca0$ba701fd1@default> Yes Atari made this game for Sears (It's stated on the bottom label) and I have not tested it yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:37 PM Subject: Re: My Last Day Of Finds in MN > > 1985 issue of COMPUTE! with pictures and a article on a Commodore LCD > > called a second-generation lap portable with 80 x 16 flip-up display, > > 32K RAM, internal modem, and eight built-in programs for under $600. > > Has anyone every seen one in real life or better yet does anyone own > > one? It looks pretty cool in the photo shown in the mag. Some of the > > If anyone does have one, it would be a prototype... > > > 8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper > > Ummm.. That would be *the* Grace Hopper?! > > > 10. Tele-games Video Arcade (Sears) with 2- controllers and 2- paddles, > > also came with 3 cartridges > > Is this a Sear's branded Atari 2600? > > > Cheers, > > Bryan > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 16 10:24:42 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: Sears/Atari was Re: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: <00f901c1863a$c84b7ca0$ba701fd1@default> References: <200112160237.VAA07183@wordstock.com> <00f901c1863a$c84b7ca0$ba701fd1@default> Message-ID: Sears also sold the Intellivision under the name Tele-Games Super Video Arcade. Jeff >Yes Atari made this game for Sears (It's stated on the bottom label) and >I have not tested it yet. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bryan Pope" >To: >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:37 PM >Subject: Re: My Last Day Of Finds in MN > > >> > 1985 issue of COMPUTE! with pictures and a article on a Commodore >LCD >> > called a second-generation lap portable with 80 x 16 flip-up >display, >> > 32K RAM, internal modem, and eight built-in programs for under $600. >> > Has anyone every seen one in real life or better yet does anyone own >> > one? It looks pretty cool in the photo shown in the mag. Some of >the >> >> If anyone does have one, it would be a prototype... >> >> > 8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper >> >> Ummm.. That would be *the* Grace Hopper?! >> >> > 10. Tele-games Video Arcade (Sears) with 2- controllers and 2- >paddles, >> > also came with 3 cartridges >> >> Is this a Sear's branded Atari 2600? >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Bryan >> -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 15 20:47:31 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > 3. Commodore Model 1351 mouse Um, is this something one should grab if one saw it? (Considering that one owns no Commodore stuff, but like trading toys...) Doc From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 15 21:25:16 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: from Doc at "Dec 15, 1 08:47:31 pm" Message-ID: <200112160325.TAA08750@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > 3. Commodore Model 1351 mouse > > Um, is this something one should grab if one saw it? (Considering that > one owns no Commodore stuff, but like trading toys...) If you like, but they're not all *that* rare. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The idea is to die young as late as possible. -- Ashley Montagu ------------ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 15 21:12:23 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:10 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "Dec 15, 1 08:18:32 pm" Message-ID: <200112160312.TAA07342@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I spent most of today checking out most of my favorite places and found > few goodies to take back to Texas. A lot of it is too new to list here > but at the low prices I could not pass the items up. I picked a April > 1985 issue of COMPUTE! with pictures and a article on a Commodore LCD > called a second-generation lap portable with 80 x 16 flip-up display, > 32K RAM, internal modem, and eight built-in programs for under $600. > Has anyone every seen one in real life or better yet does anyone own > one? It looks pretty cool in the photo shown in the mag. Some of the > other items are listed below. Prototype status only; one rumoured in the flesh but unconfirmed. http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/lcd.html -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 15 23:01:46 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default> Message-ID: >8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper Cool! I didn't know she'd ever written a book. How about some details and a review! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 15 22:02:48 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN References: Message-ID: <3C1C1CE8.23385007@jetnet.ab.ca> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper > > Cool! I didn't know she'd ever written a book. How about some details and > a review! > > Zane A online version would be nice. :) I want to know what machines are discribed. Does it come with a CD-ROM^H^H^H^H^H punched cards in the back with sample programs? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Dec 16 07:43:13 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Grace's Book was Re: My Last Day Of Finds in MN References: <3C1C1CE8.23385007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <007101c18637$9c6d0c00$ba701fd1@default> Sorry no CD the book was written in 1984 and so far is a good read. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:02 PM Subject: Re: My Last Day Of Finds in MN > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > >8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper > > > > Cool! I didn't know she'd ever written a book. How about some details and > > a review! > > > > Zane > A online version would be nice. :) > I want to know what machines are discribed. Does it come with a > CD-ROM^H^H^H^H^H > punched cards in the back with sample programs? > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > From UberTechnoid at home.com Sun Dec 16 01:05:20 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default> Message-ID: <20011216070736.YOHW19480.femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I suspect that what you have in your bag is an ICD P:R:Connection which is a two port serial, one port paralell interface. Is it square and grey in color with an ICD P:R:Connection moniker printed thereon? Might by itself be worth $50.00 to an Atari Enthusiast. Else it might just be a cable. If so, that same cable works with the Atari 850 interface for the same purpose. Regards, Jeff In <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default>, on 12/15/01 at 08:18 PM, "John R. Keys Jr." said: >I spent most of today checking out most of my favorite places and found >few goodies to take back to Texas. A lot of it is too new to list here >but at the low prices I could not pass the items up. I picked a April >1985 issue of COMPUTE! with pictures and a article on a Commodore LCD >called a second-generation lap portable with 80 x 16 flip-up display, 32K >RAM, internal modem, and eight built-in programs for under $600. Has >anyone every seen one in real life or better yet does anyone own one? It >looks pretty cool in the photo shown in the mag. Some of the other items >are listed below. >1. ICD printer connector cable for Atari 850 new in unopened package 2. >Tandy cat#26-1398 6' RS232C cable new unopened package >3. Commodore Model 1351 mouse >4. Several Sega Master System cartridges >5. Compute! March 1985 issue some good stuff in it also. >6. Several mousepads for the collection >7. A RAD robot >8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper 9. >Some Apple and Toshiba technical manuals >10. Tele-games Video Arcade (Sears) with 2- controllers and 2- paddles, >also came with 3 cartridges >11. A NeXT keyboard (pn 2122) and mouse (pn 193), the mouse was a style I >had not seen before. >Well that's all I can list as the others are not classic yet. Keep >Computing -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Dec 16 07:37:52 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Strange Atari Cable References: <20011216070736.YOHW19480.femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <004c01c18636$dd3b6de0$ba701fd1@default> Yes it's gray and the package says the following: "Connects the Atari 8-bit computer to Industry Standard Centronic's Parallel Printers. ICD's State-of-The-Art Interface Electronics Built into Cable End (including a custom, single chip microcomputer). Requires No separate power source." Not a bad deal for $2.95, will have test it later. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: Re: My Last Day Of Finds in MN > I suspect that what you have in your bag is an ICD P:R:Connection which is > a two port serial, one port paralell interface. Is it square and grey in > color with an ICD P:R:Connection moniker printed thereon? Might by itself > be worth $50.00 to an Atari Enthusiast. > > Else it might just be a cable. If so, that same cable works with the > Atari 850 interface for the same purpose. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > > In <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default>, on 12/15/01 > at 08:18 PM, "John R. Keys Jr." said: > > >I spent most of today checking out most of my favorite places and found > >few goodies to take back to Texas. A lot of it is too new to list here > >but at the low prices I could not pass the items up. I picked a April > >1985 issue of COMPUTE! with pictures and a article on a Commodore LCD > >called a second-generation lap portable with 80 x 16 flip-up display, 32K > >RAM, internal modem, and eight built-in programs for under $600. Has > >anyone every seen one in real life or better yet does anyone own one? It > >looks pretty cool in the photo shown in the mag. Some of the other items > >are listed below. > > >1. ICD printer connector cable for Atari 850 new in unopened package 2. > >Tandy cat#26-1398 6' RS232C cable new unopened package > >3. Commodore Model 1351 mouse > >4. Several Sega Master System cartridges > >5. Compute! March 1985 issue some good stuff in it also. > >6. Several mousepads for the collection > >7. A RAD robot > >8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper 9. > >Some Apple and Toshiba technical manuals > >10. Tele-games Video Arcade (Sears) with 2- controllers and 2- paddles, > >also came with 3 cartridges > >11. A NeXT keyboard (pn 2122) and mouse (pn 193), the mouse was a style I > >had not seen before. > >Well that's all I can list as the others are not classic yet. Keep > >Computing > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Dec 15 20:30:07 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Couple of items available - more info . . . Message-ID: <4.1.20011215205308.009c5f00@206.231.8.2> >X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.ezwind.net: majordom set sender to >owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f >X-Sender: cfandt@206.231.8.2 >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:54:36 -0500 >To: >From: Christian Fandt >Subject: Couple of items available . . . >Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >I've got four Iomega Bournoulli Boxes, model A210H, if anybody wants them. >I can maybe think of a few bits to swap for them but that doesn't matter. I >just need the room (as several list members who've visited us can attest) >and want them to go to a new home. > >I can ship but just reimburse me for the shipping cost and maybe purchase >of a proper shipping carton or two as needed. Seem to weigh 15 to 20 lbs. >each. Zip code 14701. > >Also, any interest in several IBM 3287 printers? Dot matrix 132 column page >printers which use SNA network interface. I have had a few questions asking (basically) what those Bournoulli Boxes are. Please forgive me as I thought they were somewhat well known - but that's probably because we used them all over the plant where I once worked and I kinda got used to them. Plus, it's been a relatively long time since they fell out use and younger folks of course wouldn't know much of them. At any rate, they are a removeable media mass storage device which uses what are essentially disk cartridges. Vintage '82-'85, I think. The media inside its case, IIRC, is similar to an 8" floppy disk except encased in a rigid plastic case. The cart is something like 8" wide, about 12" long and about 5/8" or so thick. These model A210H units have two 10 megabyte drives within a single enclosure. It measures approximately 5 inches high, about 12 inches wide and about 13-14 inches front-to-back. The PC XT, AT and compatible host machines had installed within themselves a proprietary ISA card with a cable from it to the Bournoulli Box. I know I've got at least two of these cards tucked away somewhere but I need to dig and hunt for them. They're packed away in one of the boxes from our move to this house several years ago. I've got a software driver disk or two around too. Same thing: where the h*** are they at the moment? But I can find them with diligent hunting. We live on a 66' x 210' lot and they can be eventually found :-) Iomega's Bournoulli Boxes were great for use as backup of the contemporary 20-to-80 mb hard disks of that era. That is what these units had been used for at my ex-employer along with their use as local data storage for daily Customer Service and Field Service records. I rescued them when we cleaned out an off site warehouse back in the mid 90's. I've also got maybe a dozen or more of the cartridges, too, which I just found. Yours for the taking too. Same conditions as previously stated (pay shipping, help towards a shipping box if actually needed, etc., yadda-yadda-yadda). Come and get 'em. Thanks. -Chris -- -- NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rcini at msn.com Sat Dec 15 21:46:56 2001 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCE--Altair32 version 2.1 released! Message-ID: Hello, all: Just a quick announcement. Today was the official release of version 2.1 of the Altair32 Emulator. Yeah! It's been about four months since the 2.0 release and a lot has happened since then. Floppy disk images for CP/M, Altair DOS and Disk BASIC are fully functional and the Altair32 now has an integrated debugger, courtesy of Jim Battle's Sol-20 emulation project. These two items alone took over half of the time between releases and integrating the debugger required a major overhaul of the 8080 emulation code. On the negative side, a small regression error has crept in and 4k BASIC will no longer run. This is not so bad because if you could run 8k BASIC there's no reason to run 4k BASIC. The next phase of the project will hopefully include some or all of the following: Continued code cleanup; minor fixes to IMSAI conditional Further testing of the debugger (it's been only lightly tested with the Altair32) A set of Windows-based tools to manipulate diskette images (to enable people to download programs from http://www.retroarchive.org and get them onto diskettes) Support for BBS software Support for different floppy controllers/disk formats and maybe a pseudo-floppy hard drive. That's it for now. As always, you can check out the project at: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32.htm Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 15 22:50:47 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCE--Altair32 version 2.1 released! Message-ID: <006001c185ee$4d715c30$4ef19a8d@ajp166> From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > On the negative side, a small regression error has crept in and 4k BASIC >will no longer run. This is not so bad because if you could run 8k BASIC >there's no reason to run 4k BASIC. This is broken. Since 4kbasic and 8kbasic ran on the same altairs it suggests something in the emulator is broken. FYI: much of MITS and Altair compatable software used input Port 0FFh as a 8bit input (usually to configure IO). Allison From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Dec 16 01:20:55 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Morrow MD3 Documentation. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011215231936.00a53c50@mail.zipcon.net> Anyone have any of the docs for this beastie? I have one but no docs. I have been having trouble figuring out which terminal emulation to use when connected to it, also If someone has the docs I would be will ing to get my scanner hooked up again to my computer and see about making a PDF of them for posterity.... From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 16 05:00:28 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: On Sequent Symmetry S81 and PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFBA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <200112161100.fBGB0TM00312@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 14 Dec, Christopher Smith wrote: >> > Drives, but I can probably handle that... >> What interface SMD? > Possibly, it's hard to tell since I'm not sure what an SMD interface looks > like. I could turn it over and check but I don't know what to look for. ;) We had a dual channel SMD controller. There was a big ribbon cable from the CPU cabinet to the disk cabinet. In the top of the disk cabinet was some kind of distribution PCB with the standard 60 and 26 pin SMD connectors. Normaly there is one 60 ribbon cable per bus that goes to all drives (much like SCSI) and one 26 pin ribbon cable per drive to the controller. Sequent did somthing different. There was a separate 60 cable to each drive. > Did you get the chance to find out how performance faired when you add more > CPU? I did nerver change the CPU config and we never really used the system. To much heat in our litle room. ;-) > It is amusing for me to see _any_ intel cpu running in an SMP config, and > the fact that from what I've heard, Sequent made them do it fairly well, > intrigues me. They may have done the SMP part well, but as I wrote the IO performace is poor. I could not belive what I measured. But one of the former administrators confirmed that IO was real slow. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 15 13:49:51 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011215110348.00dd7120@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > I want a CRAY. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org Actually, I just heard that University of Texas is replacing their Cray(s) with a set of IBM Regattas. If somebody with contacts there made the right moves at the right time, the Crays could probably be had. Maybe for next to nothing. UT sends a HUGE volume of hardware to the Texas Department of Corrections, who sorts out the PC & Mac hardware & refines the rest. It always broke my heart watching the guys at surplus get that stuff ready to ship. And no, they never liked me there. I had this thing about fixing the routers so my clients printed to my printers, not the building next door. They had this thing about filling out requests on pater and waiting 5 weeks. I never did. They never changed the passwords on the routers. They don't like me. Doc From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 16 15:21:07 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: <20011216212312.EGQH13163.imf12bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > There's a big difference between writing code to solve problems and being > a software engineer. Designing, coding, and compiling is only 40% of the > battle. Hopefully you're also spending some time planning and testing. To me planning and testing are such obviously important parts of any development process that I didn't mention them in my original post, assuming (I hope correctly) that most everyone on this list is as old-fashioned as I am ;>) > We recently interviewed an electronics engineering graduate who didn't know > the difference between NPN and PNP transistors !! What do they teach kids > these days ?? I repeat, the "faculty" of the "institution" which issued this fellow a degree should be tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 16 15:37:11 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: <20011216213915.NRBS1957.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Ben Franchuk > "Should HTML/inline files be banded from EMAIL?" I ask. > As of late I have turned inline viewing off, with all the > stupid viruses around. My vote: ban 'em. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 16 15:41:53 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: <20011216213817.MZNL6523.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: CLeyson@aol.com > Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( Yes, you can! I have posted numerous messages to this list (and others) from an AOL account in the past and never sent anything but plain text. Glen 0/0 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Dec 16 15:43:02 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: from Dan Linder at "Dec 16, 1 02:15:37 pm" Message-ID: <200112162143.NAA07570@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Now, when I bring it back out - for someone w/o a whole lot of experience > with working on disk drives - what's a good approach for getting it back > up to snuff. (I currently have no o-scope or other 'fancy' test gear, so > I'm looking for the basics here...) If you mean failure to get the disk drive to read disks initially, 1571s sometimes like to have the disk 'tapped in' once or twice, i.e., insert the disk, close the door and then tap the disk in a couple times. Occasionally the 1571 fails to note the change of disk. I now have a habit of this with my 128D. Also, they are known to have grounding issues from time to time, so make sure that the unit is properly earthed or you'll get weird disk errors. Failing that, for alignment, look for a used *original* of Vorpal Toolkit by Epyx which is sometimes up for sale and let it take a whack at the drive. It must be an original, since Vorpal aligns the drive to the waveform generated by its host disk. This is probably the easiest way and I've aligned several drives with this utility. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: Today is an excellent day to have a totally rotten day. ----------- From dlinder at uiuc.edu Sun Dec 16 16:24:27 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <200112162143.NAA07570@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Now, when I bring it back out - for someone w/o a whole lot of experience > > with working on disk drives - what's a good approach for getting it back > > up to snuff. (I currently have no o-scope or other 'fancy' test gear, so > > I'm looking for the basics here...) > > If you mean failure to get the disk drive to read disks initially, 1571s > sometimes like to have the disk 'tapped in' once or twice, i.e., insert the > disk, close the door and then tap the disk in a couple times. Occasionally > the 1571 fails to note the change of disk. I now have a habit of this with > my 128D. Ah, yes, this is the same symptom in mine. I guess when I head back to the Familial Lodge (parents' house), I must bring down my 128D. I miss it so. - Dan -- Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From bpope at wordstock.com Sun Dec 16 17:57:38 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: from "Dan Linder" at Dec 16, 01 02:15:37 pm Message-ID: <200112162357.SAA07234@wordstock.com> > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Here are a few that while not so hard to find... WHen they are on eBay, the > > > price goes very high: > > > > > > Commodore 128D > > > > Now these I can see some justification for (not merely because I'm a Commodore > > freak). 128Ds are nice units, especially with the built-in disk drive; and > > they're very sturdy and well-built. They're also very stylish units, probably > > the best looking computers of the 8-bit Commodore line. > > A C-128D was my main machine before I got my Amiga 2000. I was planning > on unboxing it again soon, but before I stopped using it, the drive seemed > to be going out of alignment. It needed a little gentle pressure on the > disk sometimes to get 'er going. > > Now, when I bring it back out - for someone w/o a whole lot of experience > with working on disk drives - what's a good approach for getting it back > up to snuff. (I currently have no o-scope or other 'fancy' test gear, so > I'm looking for the basics here...) > Centisible software (http://www.centisible.com) is the distributor for Free Spirit Software's 1541/71 Drive Alignment. They sell it new for $19.95 Cheers, Bryan From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 16 18:10:27 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ah yeah. Good pick. That is definitely a rare beast. I've only ever > known one person who had one (I forgot his name, he used to be on the list > a few years ago). He sold it off to someone else and then got out of > collecting computers. Was that me? I have/had three, but they are promised to go out West. One of those deals that seems to be taking a very long time, mostly due to me trying to unearth it all and boxing the stuff up. Anyway, Sphere aparently was one of the early bad guys. The computers they sold (many as kits, I think) basically did not work. Unlike Altair, Sphere was trying to break into the business sector, so there really was not much of an excuse for the crapiness. They all needed a huge number of hacks to get them to function (my favorite is a a few-mH coil made of telephone wire kludged onto one of the oscillators, in order to keep the thing going. Basically, wrap some wire around a pencil, and tack solder it into place, and adjust accordingly). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 16:31:13 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C1D20B1.F2BAF45D@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. Arg! And here I thought the 8008 was 70's technology. > Actually thats not true. BY 1981 you have peripherals in the 125ns read > write timing range. Then again Z80 at that time was just hinting at 6mhz > so z80 peripherals were of an according spped for that cpu. However, > other > parts were faster and often far cheaper. If you must know it is a floppy disk controller I need. Right now I plan to use WD2797 floppy disk controller. I would love to use a newer chip,but I can't find any! I want to stay with DIP's and PLCC's here. This may be the 21 century but my soldering skills are the 19'th. > Personally if I wanted the SIO functionality for a NON-z80 system I'd > never use the zilog part. Reason it was not cheap,nor was it easy to > use for non-z80 systems. They were designed for the Z80, period. > Unfortunatly they were slow. If you wanted faster the 83xx or 85xx > parts from Zilog were a far better choice but Zbus was scary to most > people and they weren't cheap. The other part of this is NEC and > Intel did the MPSC (NEC D7201, INtel 8274) which was functionally > identical to the SIO and was "tuned" for 8080/8085/8088/8086 style > busses and faster as well. It was a more generic part than the SIO. > Also around that time Signetics and friends were doing the 2681 part > that was cheap and available in various flavors. Peripherals back then > were quite varied. I still favor the simple dumb uart chip. TR1602?. I like things than you hit reset, it starts ... not like the classic star-trek computers that always go down. Usually when you need them. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Dec 16 17:12:58 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <3C1D20B1.F2BAF45D@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > ajp166 wrote: > > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. > Arg! And here I thought the 8008 was 70's technology. Well more into the 80s since the PAL was invented in 1978... > > > Actually thats not true. BY 1981 you have peripherals in the 125ns read > > write timing range. Then again Z80 at that time was just hinting at 6mhz > > so z80 peripherals were of an according spped for that cpu. However, > > other > > parts were faster and often far cheaper. > > If you must know it is a floppy disk controller I need. Right now > I plan to use WD2797 floppy disk controller. I would love to use > a newer chip,but I can't find any! I want to stay with DIP's and PLCC's > here. This may be the 21 century but my soldering skills are the 19'th. Actually Its possible to do QFPs pretty easy with just a good soldering iron and lots of flux... Even BGA's aren't too hard with a hot air gun (surface tension does the work) > > > > Personally if I wanted the SIO functionality for a NON-z80 system I'd > > never use the zilog part. Reason it was not cheap,nor was it easy to > > use for non-z80 systems. They were designed for the Z80, period. > > Unfortunatly they were slow. If you wanted faster the 83xx or 85xx > > parts from Zilog were a far better choice but Zbus was scary to most > > people and they weren't cheap. The other part of this is NEC and > > Intel did the MPSC (NEC D7201, INtel 8274) which was functionally > > identical to the SIO and was "tuned" for 8080/8085/8088/8086 style > > busses and faster as well. It was a more generic part than the SIO. > > Also around that time Signetics and friends were doing the 2681 part > > that was cheap and available in various flavors. Peripherals back then > > were quite varied. > > I still favor the simple dumb uart chip. TR1602?. I like things than > you hit reset, it starts ... not like the classic star-trek computers > that always > go down. Usually when you need them. > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > Can you still get TR1602's? I remember building something with them (maybe it was a 1402) and 3341 FIFO's in the 70's Peter Wallace From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 16:40:39 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <00a801c18674$879a28c0$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C1D22E7.205110C5@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > > From: Richard Erlacher > > >the "vintage-PC" chipsets were 5 MHz parts, I do believe. That still > wasn't > >rocket-fast, but it was adequate for the 4.77 MHz i8088. > > Yes, and NEC and INTEL were selling 8mhz parts before then. > > The "PC" was slow by contemporary standards. I'd have likend it to > building > a 2mhz z80 system in 1981, equally poor thing to do. > > Allison More like 1.2 MHZ 6502. But with the stupid pre-fetch buffer, nobody knows how slow a instruction can be, they just give you the best case. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 18:28:07 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:11 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <003701c18691$edc587d0$82f19a8d@ajp166> A newer chip that can still be found is the WD37C65 that will do 125ns easily. Or you could easily find a d765 off an old board or NOS from JDR. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? >If you must know it is a floppy disk controller I need. Right now >I plan to use WD2797 floppy disk controller. I would love to use >a newer chip,but I can't find any! I want to stay with DIP's and PLCC's >here. This may be the 21 century but my soldering skills are the 19'th. >I still favor the simple dumb uart chip. TR1602?. I like things than >you hit reset, it starts ... not like the classic star-trek computers that >always go down. Usually when you need them. It's an OK part but you could use the 8251 with fewer supporting parts and two less voltages (com2502 is single voltage). I've built enough to enjoy later parts as I'm old enough to want it done in a lifetime and the older parts meant tons more support parts and the requisite connections. Of the latter, the fewer the better for both buildability and reliability. Allison From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 16 16:03:20 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > Actually, I just heard that University of Texas is replacing their > Cray(s) with a set of IBM Regattas. Which division of UT is this? > If somebody with contacts there made the right moves at the right > time, the Crays could probably be had. Maybe for next to nothing. UT can't legally sell any old/surplus equipment via a private sale. I've talked to people about this in the past. There are laws that force all agencies that get funding from the state of Texas to sell old/surplus stuff via an auction only. Prior to 9/1/99, all old/surplus computer stuff was sold to dealers and the public via an auction. > UT sends a HUGE volume of hardware to the Texas Department of > Corrections, who sorts out the PC & Mac hardware & refines the rest. Since 9/1/99, UT sends anything that fits the definition "Data Processing Equipment" to TDC. Most divisions of UT I'm familiar with include old Sun/VAX/Mainframe gear in the lots they send to TDC. Based on what I've heard from various warehouse personnel, they generally tend to interpret 'Data Processing Equipment' to mean the monitor and cpu/computer. They don't send TDC any keyboards, mice, or cables. I always wondered what TDC can actually do with this many (10s of 1000s+) incomplete/gutted computers? > It always broke my heart watching the guys at surplus get that stuff > ready to ship. UT is required to remove all data from the machines they send TDC. Most warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them. Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an industrial chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting brackets from the drives before scrapping them. What I would really like to know is how TDC is supposed to reuse/resell these machines with no keyboards, no mice, and no hds/mounting brackets? Here is a little information on the bill that forces all computer stuff to go to TDC instead of auction, the text of the bill has an explicit list of who can get surplus 'Data Processing Equipment' from a state agency. Section 6 seems a little funny to me, but since I don't have a background in law, I don't know what to make of it. Bill: SB 1105 Legislative Session: 76(R) Enrolled 06/18/1999 E Effective on 9/1/99 Relating to repair and resale of certain data processing equipment. URL for bill history: http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/db2www/tlo/billhist/billhist.d2w/report?LEG=76&SESS=R&CHAMBER=S&BILLTYPE=B&BILLSUFFIX=01105 URL to bill text: http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/tlo/textframe.cmd?LEG=76&SESS=R&CHAMBER=S&BILLTYPE=B&BILLSUFFIX=01105&VERSION=5&TYPE=B -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 16 15:49:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction! In-Reply-To: <002401c185df$5040a6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Dec 15, 1 08:11:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1998 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/08ae7a19/attachment.ksh From jrasite at eoni.com Sun Dec 16 15:55:51 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu><3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net><15387.41905.814206.642299@phaduka.neurotica.com><002a01c185df$a6832ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15388.12371.624211.702208@phaduka.neurotica.com> <005001c18665$ca56f580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1D1860.9BCD5BCE@eoni.com> And what's the difference between an engineering project and Christmas? None. You do all the work and the fat guy in the suit gets all the credit. (did I read that here?) Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 16:36:54 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <200112150642.WAA15692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu><3C1B36A2.753F8CEB@gorge.net><15387.41905.814206.642299@phaduka.neurotica.com><002a01c185df$a6832ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15388.12371.624211.702208@phaduka.neurotica.com> <005001c18665$ca56f580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1D1860.9BCD5BCE@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3C1D2206.29970E4C@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Arnott wrote: > > And what's the difference between an engineering project and Christmas? > > None. You do all the work and the fat guy in the suit gets all the credit. > > (did I read that here?) > > Jim And pay too! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 16 16:24:50 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <20011216222654.XNVW9470.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Tony Duell > > Well, most of us (except for Tony) have areas that we are not expert in, or > > Whereas I'm not an expert in any area, right??? Wrong. Accept a complement, okay? ;>) > I am strongly of the opinion that you can't teach creativity. And thus > you can't teach somebody to be a good programmer or a good electronic > designer. Yes, there are things that such people need to know (and those > can be taught, but equally good programmer/designers tend to be > interested enough to teach themselves a lot of it). OTOH, methodology certainly *can* be taught. Unfortunately, though, either it isn't being taught, or the student just doesn't "get it." Some of the crap I've seen which was written by CS degree-holders has been truly mind-boggling due to a complete lack of structure or logic in the code. > So I don't think there's _any_ correlation (or at most a very weak one) > between qualifications and ability as a programmer/designer. Agreed, absolutely. > > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . > > I don't think so. I've seen enough 'qualified' people who I'd not trust > anywhere near anything I owned. I've also met a few totally unqualified > people who I'd be happy handing a toolkit to and letting them loose in my > workshop, knowing that they'd do no real damage. > > And 'licenses' almost always come from 'qualifications' :-( A test-based license is what I had in mind, but this raises all kinds of problems (such as who designs and administers the exam, etc.) so in the end it is probably better that the practitioners of the craft do the "weeding out" themselves. Personally, I'm glad to out of programming professionally, although it remains a favorite hobby of mine. I just got so tired of having to explain the difference between a "string" and a "character array" to some of these folks . . . over and over . . . I could tell stories you probably wouldn't believe, but the memory of them is causing me to lose my lunch so I think I'd better just log off . . . Glen 0/0 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 16 16:08:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011215231305.00a53ec0@mail.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Dec 15, 1 11:15:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1347 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/ff70fef5/attachment.ksh From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 16 17:12:33 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... Message-ID: <20011216230855.NZGF6523.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Richard Erlacher > A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little Boards I have, since > they use the standard floppy disk cable, which has no twists or cuts. Take a "modern" PC dual-fdd cable and cut off the end which has the twist in it. Glen 0/0 From donm at cts.com Sun Dec 16 17:34:11 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... In-Reply-To: <20011216230855.NZGF6523.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > From: Richard Erlacher > > > A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little Boards I have, > since > > they use the standard floppy disk cable, which has no twists or cuts. > > Take a "modern" PC dual-fdd cable and cut off the end which has the twist > in it. Actually, you would need a PC/XT cable that has only card edge connectors to work with the Ampro LittleBoard. (Despite my earlier erroneous statement!) - don > Glen > 0/0 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 16 16:12:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <15388.47465.183883.653541@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 16, 1 10:10:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 558 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/0474270d/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Dec 16 16:19:10 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: <200112162219.fBGMJB431693@ns2.ezwind.net> >> Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( > >Yes, you can! I have posted numerous messages to this list (and others) >from an AOL account in the past and never sent anything but plain text. The latest version of the AOL client for windows no longer offers a way to turn of HTML email. HOWEVER, as long as you use STRICKTLY the defualt AOL email text settings, and NEVER do any kind of formatting, then AOL will still send plain text and not an inline HTML message. If you have changed the default settings, you can reset them. Somewhere in the AOL prefs is a button to reset them to defualt values. -chris From rhudson at cnonline.net Sun Dec 16 16:45:55 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they References: <10112161226.ZM21857@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3C1D2423.2010604@cnonline.net> or... silly question of the week... Anyone know how core memory was made? Did a person string those cores with a needle and "thread", or was it done by machine? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 17:13:07 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they References: <10112161226.ZM21857@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3C1D2423.2010604@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <3C1D2A82.499A8CD3@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > > or... silly question of the week... > > Anyone know how core memory was made? > > Did a person string those cores with a needle and > "thread", or was it done by machine? It was done by hand I think. Mexico comes to mind. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 16 18:37:40 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: How did they string core? In-Reply-To: <3C1D2A82.499A8CD3@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > It was done by hand I think. Mexico comes to mind. Some manfacturers did it by hand, some by machine. IBM had core stringing machines during the S/360 era, for the huge stacks (about 1' by 4') used in some of the storage units. They also had cores hand strung in the far East, as the cheap labor was more economical than the robots. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From sipke at wxs.nl Sun Dec 16 17:50:37 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they References: <10112161226.ZM21857@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3C1D2423.2010604@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <029601c1868c$765e00a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> It was done by hand with the assistence of a binoculair microscopes ......................... Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Hudson To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 11:45 PM Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they > or... silly question of the week... > > > Anyone know how core memory was made? > > Did a person string those cores with a needle and > "thread", or was it done by machine? > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 16 18:21:45 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they Message-ID: <003601c18691$ed237b70$82f19a8d@ajp166> Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ron Hudson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 6:01 PM Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they >or... silly question of the week... > > >Anyone know how core memory was made? > >Did a person string those cores with a needle and >"thread", or was it done by machine? > > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 16 16:47:36 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) Message-ID: <20011216224940.FBNM13163.imf12bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com Gee, a message from an AOL user with no HTML . . . imagine that . . . > Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. Okay, I'll bite: why isn't it? Glen 0/0 From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Dec 16 17:19:50 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they string cores Message-ID: <12c.9679e27.294e8616@aol.com> In a message dated 12/16/01 2:54:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, rhudson@cnonline.net writes: > > Did a person string those cores with a needle and > "thread", or was it done by machine? > > My stepmother worked for Hughes Aircraft in LA assembling core memory by hand under a microscope. She was making 4X4 panels IIRC. This had to be in the 1960s I bet. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/b091c22b/attachment.html From GCarling at aol.com Sun Dec 16 18:25:58 2001 From: GCarling at aol.com (GCarling@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Looking for a grundy NEWBRAIN Message-ID: <22.209e621e.294e9596@aol.com> I have two NewBrain MD computers with all cables and software including bespoke Word Processor and Database. Two Data Recorders are also included. In addition I have a pair of different 5.25" disk drives in a single unit with the drive controller to fit to the underside of the computer. None of the equipment has been used for some time, but is packed in original boxes and complete with instruction booklets. Would be prepared to discuss offers. Area -- North East UK Graham C Website: grahamcarling.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/4882600c/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 16 18:01:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: PDP-8/A limited function panel wiring? In-Reply-To: <3C1CFCDF.3050102@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Dec 16, 1 02:58:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1408 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011217/ba525d61/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 16 19:11:22 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] PDP-8/A limited function panel wiring? In-Reply-To: Gunther Schadow "[PDP8-Lovers] PDP-8/A limited function panel wiring?" (Dec 16, 14:58) References: <3C1AD5D3.90207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3C1CFCDF.3050102@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <10112170111.ZM23793@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 16, 14:58, Gunther Schadow wrote: > However, there are a few more issues to resolve first. The > little 16-pole ribbon cable that has DIL chip-like plug on > both ends that go into a chip-socket. That plug is bent and > pins are broken off. Seems like that happnes all the time. > Do I have to and if so how can I replace this? This cable > runs between the backplane and, I guess, the limited function > front panel. Assuming you can afford to shorten the length of the cable by the amount you'd lose by cutting off the DIL plug, it shouldn't be too hard. You can buy 16-pin IDC DIL plugs quite easily. The quick-and-dirty way to crimp one onto the cable is to take a piece of wood (metal is better but much more work) and shave it so it fits neatly between the pins, and then shave it down so it's the same depth as the pins are long. Place the cable in the plug, insert the whole lot in a smal vice and gently tighten it up. The piece of wood will prevent the pins from bending while you do this. > Do I need this, is the limited function front panel needed > at all? What's the function of the 16 lines, I assume I don't know. If you'd asked this a week or two ago, I might have been able to look it up in the PDP-8/A handbook I had on loan, but I've returned it. :-( I think you do need some of the switches, but I'm not sure. Have you looked at the print sets on some of the PDP-8 websites? David Gesswein's page at http://www.pdp8.net/query_docs/query_all.html is a good place to start. More specifically, follow the link labelled "244" from there, then "245" and you'll be able to download a 1-page diagram of the Limited Function Board. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rhudson at cnonline.net Sun Dec 16 18:57:45 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: OK all you applesoft experts out there References: <3C1B8716.7040004@cnonline.net> <20011215113356.G17862@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3C1D4309.5000600@cnonline.net> Thanks, actually I did that about 1/2 hour after posting. Seems to work ok. There is also a poke to turn off the onerr. poke 216,0 Thanks! Derek Peschel wrote: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:23:34AM -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> How can I detect end of file while reading a text file? >> >> 10 print chr$(4)"Open mytextfile" >> 20 print chr$(4)"read mytextfile" >> 30 input a$ >> 40 rem process process process >> 50 if what who how then 30 >> 60 print chr$(4)"close mytextfile" > > > Try this: > > 5 onerr goto 60 > 10 print chr$(4)"open mytextfile" > 20 print chr$(4)"read mytextfile" > 30 input a$ > 40 rem process process process > 50 goto 30 > 59 end > 60 print chr$(4)"close mytextfile" > 99 end > > Just assume the EOF isn't there. If it really is, line 30 will generate > a BASIC "END OF DATA" error, which zaps you to line 60. A proper error- > handling routine would check the error type and offending line number > (I have to look up where they're stored). > > I assume line 40 gets a line from the file into memory. You obviously > still have to write the code that manipulates the memory copy. The code > to put memory back out to the file is pretty similar to the above. > > -- Derek From rhudson at cnonline.net Sun Dec 16 19:15:37 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Shall I open it, or does someone want it.... Message-ID: <3C1D4739.3060106@cnonline.net> I have December 1967 inCider, still wrapped in it's plastic bag. I wonder if anyone is collecting magazines and would find this more collectable because it still has the plastic. I just want to read inCiders, especially those with articles about the pre-GS apple II machines. Anyone wanna trade me? Anyone got inCider or nibble magazines they want to get rid of? I am in the San Jose, CA area- we can arrange to meet. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 19:49:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <00c401c1869d$1ed445e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Peter, you're missing the point. However, first of all, EP6xx an EP9xx were not of the classic "PAL" genre. They were early CPLD's, since they contained, the equivalent of two or more PALs. Those were quite expensive, particularly in the Altera cases, since, although Intel and TI made the physical parts for them, they disguised it enough that folks thought of the Intel parts as being quite different, hence quite expensive, thereby not placing cost pressure on ALTERA. Since the TI parts were identical, their agreement with Altera apparently was that they'd be noncompetetive. The OTP's which were quite inexpensive, were, at least in the case of the EP6xx and EP3xx quite reasonable, though not as inexpensive as the 16R/L/Xnn bipolar parts from TI, NS, MMI, Signetics, and AMD among others. The PAL16R/L/Xnnn series were quite a bit less costly, faster, and more straightforward in their application than the Altera parts, however, costing <$2 in production lots. You could without much ado accomplish the same tasks with TTL MSI/SSI. It's still not rocket science, and still not expensive, except that more than one component is involved. Several I/O board makers did that with 8250's as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a Z80 > > > > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose of any > > > > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or equivalent > > > > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the thing in > > > > an hour or less. > > > > > > Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > > > expensive. > > It was as trivial then as now, if you preferred TTL SSI/MSI logic. I think you could do it with a 74LS00 and a 74LS74. That's about $0.25 for the two back then. > > > I never heard about pal's until about 1990. In some ways the peripheral > > chips are in a really sorry shape. You have vintage slow I/O (2 MHZ?) > > or PC motherboard chip sets. Nothing in between. On my FPGA I can run > > with a 250 ns memory cycle, but need to stretch it to 625 ns for I/O. > The peripheral chips in every 1981-82 PC, PC-Clone, etc, that I've got in the basement (they're all in one box) are 5 MHz parts without exception. These were readily available to mfg's who purchased the quantity, but weren't available in surplus for a while. > > PALs were certainly available earlier, just expensive, > non-reprogramable, and power hungry. I think we used our first > programmable logic in 1986 (Altera EP900s and EP320s - both low power) for > emulation of some PC motherboard stuff in our low power V40 based embedded > PCs. We never used PALs but have used GALs a lot for simple decoders and > random logic. Bipolar logic was, indeed, power-hungry but that was the technology of the time. EP???' were not bipolar, they were CMOS, and, in the case of the '80's perhaps even NMOS. I'm not certain about that. GALs became avaiable in '84-85 and they were expensive for only a short time, quickly grabbing market share when folks realized that the 16V8 replaced the 16L8, 16R4, 16R6, 16R8, and several others. Once the programming algorithms were available in the common programmers and there was affordable software with which to use them, and I frequently used conversion software from PAL fuse maps to GAL parts, having developed them from PALASM intended for bipolar parts, I never bought another bipolar PAL. For obvious reasons, it wasn't long before the GALs had replaced al the 16L/R parts. > At about $.50 now they are hard to beat. > I think I would do most non-common (probably not Ethernet, USB or > video) I/O these days with FPGAs. Its great to be able to change the > function and pinout with just a downloadble config file. A 100K (Well > maybe 15K if you remove Xilinx inflation factor) SpartanII chip is only > $19.00... > There are several free HDL's in Verilog or VHDL for a fast ethernet interface that will run entirely in a small Spartan or moderate 4000-series device costing less than $25, but that's in quantity. Likewise, those can be implemented in CPLD's for about the same cost. USB is better done in a dedicated (for the USB) MCU, and at lower cost. Of course you have to license a Device ID. (or whatever they call it) > > > > > > -- > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Dec 16 20:19:59 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011216201959.G8765@mrbill.net> On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:14:56PM -0600, Doc wrote: > Um, Pat, where you at? When I said I had "enough" AIX boxen, I may well > have meant "too many". If any of those are PCI-based, call me. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Dec 16 20:23:17 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <15387.50834.134058.648572@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <007901c185b0$0fae3d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <15387.50834.134058.648572@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011216202317.I8765@mrbill.net> On Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:54:26PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 15, John Allain wrote: > > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. > -Dave No, you've already over-filled your Cray quota; you should have to give one of those away (like say, the EL98, to me..) before you can acquire any more "big balls" hardware. 8-) Bill (and then amy can get a new set of pots an pans!) -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 20:40:15 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: Re: Is there no end (Bill Bradford) References: <007901c185b0$0fae3d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <15387.50834.134058.648572@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011216202317.I8765@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <15389.23311.885337.953557@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, Bill Bradford wrote: > > > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > > > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > > It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. > > No, you've already over-filled your Cray quota; you should have to give > one of those away (like say, the EL98, to me..) before you can acquire > any more "big balls" hardware. 8-) Ahh, you THINK so. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 20:22:38 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011217022238.78791.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> I stumbled upon a link some time ago belonging to a very bitter former owner of Sphere. The gist of his article was that Byte Magazine destroyed Sphere with a very bad review, and, that most computers of that era took some hacking to work anyway (example: the "clock" - and I use the term clock charitably - of the original Altair 8800). --- William Donzelli wrote: > > Ah yeah. Good pick. That is definitely a rare > beast. I've only ever > > known one person who had one (I forgot his name, > he used to be on the list > > a few years ago). He sold it off to someone else > and then got out of > > collecting computers. > > Was that me? I have/had three, but they are promised > to go out West. One of > those deals that seems to be taking a very long > time, mostly due to me > trying to unearth it all and boxing the stuff up. > > Anyway, Sphere aparently was one of the early bad > guys. The computers they > sold (many as kits, I think) basically did not work. > Unlike Altair, Sphere > was trying to break into the business sector, so > there really was not much > of an excuse for the crapiness. They all needed a > huge number of hacks to > get them to function (my favorite is a a few-mH coil > made of telephone > wire kludged onto one of the oscillators, in order > to keep the thing > going. Basically, wrap some wire around a pencil, > and tack solder it into > place, and adjust accordingly). > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 16 20:37:34 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <20011216222654.XNVW9470.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <006001c186a3$c904a2c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > ...I just got so tired of having to explain the difference between > a "string" and a "character array" to some of these folks . . . > over and over In general I think it's possible and necessary to project a kind of "three strikes" rule. If you have to ask the same question more than twice then you should be taking more written notes. Else it's just wasting the speakers time, right? Yeah, there's always hassles. I've had co-workers that I was trying to educate laid off "for" me implying that since I wasn't cut I was the lucky one. After getting more and more entry level work I just gave up that whole deal. John A. From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Dec 16 20:25:55 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <15388.49979.384325.778162@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <000401c18648$5bb9b8f0$82f19a8d@ajp166> <15388.49979.384325.778162@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011216202555.J8765@mrbill.net> On Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 10:52:27AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > That would be something I'd be up for trying...if I can find a chunk > of core of low enough density to trace the wiring in. There are some > nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they are priced WAY too > high in my opinion. > -Dave I've still got these two UNIBUS core planes (H215), but they're probably better suited for use in a DEC system instead of being deconstructed. Bill (will trade for ham radio equipment) -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 16 20:37:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (Bill Bradford) References: <000401c18648$5bb9b8f0$82f19a8d@ajp166> <15388.49979.384325.778162@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011216202555.J8765@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <15389.23150.604474.496257@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 16, Bill Bradford wrote: > > That would be something I'd be up for trying...if I can find a chunk > > of core of low enough density to trace the wiring in. There are some > > nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they are priced WAY too > > high in my opinion. > > I've still got these two UNIBUS core planes (H215), but they're probably > better suited for use in a DEC system instead of being deconstructed. Yes...I will *not* deconstruct DEC core, unless it's nonfunctional and unrepairable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 20:44:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: <20011216213915.NRBS1957.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <00eb01c186a4$b62ac7a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What they also ought to ban is cross-posting and multi-destination emails. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") > > From: Ben Franchuk > > > "Should HTML/inline files be banded from EMAIL?" I ask. > > As of late I have turned inline viewing off, with all the > > stupid viruses around. > > My vote: ban 'em. > > Glen > 0/0 > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 20:45:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: <200112162219.fBGMJB431693@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <00f301c186a4$d493d060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> does it have a spell-checker? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") > >> Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( > > > >Yes, you can! I have posted numerous messages to this list (and others) > >from an AOL account in the past and never sent anything but plain text. > > The latest version of the AOL client for windows no longer offers a way > to turn of HTML email. HOWEVER, as long as you use STRICKTLY the defualt > AOL email text settings, and NEVER do any kind of formatting, then AOL > will still send plain text and not an inline HTML message. > > If you have changed the default settings, you can reset them. Somewhere > in the AOL prefs is a button to reset them to defualt values. > > -chris > > > > From rhudson at cnonline.net Sun Dec 16 20:50:48 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Shall I open it, or does someone want it.... References: Message-ID: <3C1D5D88.4080201@cnonline.net> Ok! Ok! I goofed - it's 1987, not 1967... There is one small hole in the plastic (1/2" round tear) There is an Epyx Catalog included as a supplement. (of course all the blow in cards are inside there too) Keith Johnson wrote: >> I have December 1967 inCider, > > > That *would* be an interesting read. Maybe it has a spread on the Univac? > > :P > > Keifer From rhudson at cnonline.net Sun Dec 16 21:01:05 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Shall I open it, or does someone want it....] Message-ID: <3C1D5FF1.8090705@cnonline.net> Ok! Ok! I goofed - it's 1987, not 1967... There is one small hole in the plastic (1/2" round tear) There is an Epyx Catalog included as a supplement. (of course all the blow in cards are inside there too) Keith Johnson wrote: >> I have December 1967 inCider, > > > That *would* be an interesting read. Maybe it has a spread on the Univac? > > :P > > Keifer From louiss at gate.net Sun Dec 16 21:06:11 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Shall I open it, or does someone want it.... In-Reply-To: <3C1D4739.3060106@cnonline.net> Message-ID: Too Cool! This must be the issue where a 14-year old Woz discusses puberty, girls, and how he is going to invent the Apple computer in seven years. Wow! I'd auction it on eBay. Louis On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:15:37 -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: #I have December 1967 inCider, still wrapped in it's plastic #bag. I wonder if anyone is collecting magazines and would #find this more collectable because it still has the plastic. # #I just want to read inCiders, especially those with articles #about the pre-GS apple II machines. # #Anyone wanna trade me? # #Anyone got inCider or nibble magazines they want to get #rid of? # #I am in the San Jose, CA area- we can arrange to meet. # From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 20:55:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> <3C1D20B1.F2BAF45D@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00ff01c186a6$460f8580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 3:31 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > ajp166 wrote: > > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. > Arg! And here I thought the 8008 was 70's technology. > > > Actually thats not true. By 1981 you have peripherals in the 125ns read > > write timing range. Then again Z80 at that time was just hinting at 6mhz > > so z80 peripherals were of an according spped for that cpu. However, > > other parts were faster and often far cheaper. > I got my first Z80B (6 MHz) in early 1981 and Z80H (8 MHz) in 1983. > > If you must know it is a floppy disk controller I need. Right now > I plan to use WD2797 floppy disk controller. I would love to use > a newer chip,but I can't find any! I want to stay with DIP's and PLCC's > here. This may be the 21 century but my soldering skills are the 19'th. > Why? The WD37C65 is a much easier part to use, and it programs pretty much like a NEC uPD765, drives the cable directly, and automatically deals with the data/clock separation for 500 KHz, 250 KHz, and 125 KHz data rates at both 300 and 360 rpm. You can lift 'em from broken HDC's or order 'em from www.rocelec.com (Rochester Electronics). They're most common in PLCC-44, which you should be able to handle, even if, like me, you didn't listen to Mom when she told you to stop that. If you must use a WD part, which I prefer also, then use a WD179x with a FDC9229. That does everything in two chips, including selecting the appropriate clocks. The 2797 uses an analog PLL and, unless you are satisfied with a single data rate, that means multiple filters and analog muxes, etc. > > > Personally if I wanted the SIO functionality for a NON-z80 system I'd > > never use the zilog part. Reason it was not cheap,nor was it easy to > > use for non-z80 systems. They were designed for the Z80, period. > > Unfortunatly they were slow. If you wanted faster the 83xx or 85xx > > parts from Zilog were a far better choice but Zbus was scary to most > > people and they weren't cheap. The other part of this is NEC and > > Intel did the MPSC (NEC D7201, Intel 8274) which was functionally > > identical to the SIO and was "tuned" for 8080/8085/8088/8086 style > > busses and faster as well. It was a more generic part than the SIO. > > Also around that time Signetics and friends were doing the 2681 part > > that was cheap and available in various flavors. Peripherals back then > > were quite varied. > > I still favor the simple dumb uart chip. TR1602?. I like things than > you hit reset, it starts ... not like the classic star-trek computers > that always go down. Usually when you need them. > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From CLeyson at aol.com Sun Dec 16 21:20:08 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: <17.2034367f.294ebe68@aol.com> >> From: CLeyson@aol.com >> Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( > Yes, you can! I have posted numerous messages to this list (and others) > from an AOL account in the past and never sent anything but plain text. I must have missed your posts on the subject. This geek for one would like to know. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/b01ca6a1/attachment.html From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Dec 16 21:18:58 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) Message-ID: <14f.5df27e7.294ebe22@aol.com> In a message dated 12/16/2001 5:57:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, acme_ent@bellsouth.net writes: > >> From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com > > >>Gee, a message from an AOL user with no HTML . . . imagine that . . . harrumph, will wonders ever fuckin cease? > > >> Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. > > >Okay, I'll bite: why isn't it? > > figure it out yourself, google is around for a reason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011216/23e45adc/attachment.html From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 16 21:19:32 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011217022238.78791.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I stumbled upon a link some time ago belonging to a > very bitter former owner of Sphere. The gist of his > article was that Byte Magazine destroyed Sphere with a > very bad review, and, that most computers of that era > took some hacking to work anyway (example: the "clock" > - and I use the term clock charitably - of the > original Altair 8800). I have to side with Byte - Spheres really are junk. I obtained mine from an old time micro hacker (one of those that had to buy one way back in 1975) from the 6800 side of the tracks. He really had nothing good to say about Sphere - crappy construction, crappy engineering, crappy salesmanships, crappy software. Apparently there was a fair amount of empty promises from Sphere as well. He did think reasonably highly of SWTPCo and the Motorola Exorsizor, however. I have to agree with him - the SWTPCo box is a reasonably decent cheap design that needed "minimal" hacking to get to work. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 21:28:54 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:12 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <00a801c18674$879a28c0$82f19a8d@ajp166> <3C1D22E7.205110C5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <011b01c186aa$f4572a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think there are still some real misconceptions about the relative speeds of the 6502 and Z80. I used both for years; the Z80 as a tool and the 6502 for all my controller designs, etc, up to a point. I found the 6502 to be easier to apply, and, at a 4:1 clock ratio with the Z80 a 4x the 6502, somewhat faster. Now, if the two were matched at the same memory bandwidth, that having been the most cost-sensitive factor back in those days, I don't know exactly how that would have worked out. I think it might have given the Z80 and edge. Coming up with a fair and general test might be difficult. I do know one thing, though. It was much less costly to build a fast system with a 65C02 than with a Z80. First because, at the time, there were no truly fast Z80's, while there were NMOS 6502's that I used at somewhat upwards of their rated 4 MHz, which would run RINGS around any Z80 commercially available in 1979. The Z80 itself wasn't a bad CPU, but the peripheral set they built for it, with its compromises in favor of the mode-2 interrupts meant that you couldn't use wait-states on I/O cycles or on device chip selects to adjust the CPU to the slower peripherals because it had to be looking over the CPU's shoulder to catch the interrupt acknowledge and the RETI instruction. I've recently worked this out by switching the clock rate during I/O and during a pending or current interrupt, but it's still a PAIN! What's more, it seems to require more than just a PAL. Handshake logic from a 4-bit wide FIFO (16 pins) seems to be the tool for keeping track of interrupts and their dismissal. more below ... Dick ... > > More like 1.2 MHZ 6502. But with the stupid pre-fetch buffer, > nobody knows how slow an instruction can be, they just give you the > best case. although no matter how slow it is with the prefetch queue, it would be slower without it. > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 21:44:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <012501c186ad$1d07d000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 4:12 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > ajp166 wrote: > > > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. > > Arg! And here I thought the 8008 was 70's technology. > > Well more into the 80s since the PAL was invented in 1978... > I've stumbled over a 1978 databook from MMI this weekend a couple of times, that suggests the 16L/R/X/A series is new product in 1978, but there were quite a few PALs that predate them. Signetics had a different sort of device than MMI, that also goes back to the '70's. > > > > > Actually thats not true. BY 1981 you have peripherals in the 125ns read > > > write timing range. Then again Z80 at that time was just hinting at 6mhz > > > so z80 peripherals were of an according spped for that cpu. However, > > > other > > > parts were faster and often far cheaper. > > > > If you must know it is a floppy disk controller I need. Right now > > I plan to use WD2797 floppy disk controller. I would love to use > > a newer chip,but I can't find any! I want to stay with DIP's and PLCC's > > here. This may be the 21 century but my soldering skills are the 19'th. > > Actually Its possible to do QFPs pretty easy with just a good soldering > iron and lots of flux... Even BGA's aren't too hard with a hot air gun > (surface tension does the work) > > > > > > Personally if I wanted the SIO functionality for a NON-z80 system I'd > > > never use the zilog part. Reason it was not cheap,nor was it easy to > > > use for non-z80 systems. They were designed for the Z80, period. > > > Unfortunatly they were slow. If you wanted faster the 83xx or 85xx > > > parts from Zilog were a far better choice but Zbus was scary to most > > > people and they weren't cheap. The other part of this is NEC and > > > Intel did the MPSC (NEC D7201, Intel 8274) which was functionally > > > identical to the SIO and was "tuned" for 8080/8085/8088/8086 style > > > busses and faster as well. It was a more generic part than the SIO. > > > Also around that time Signetics and friends were doing the 2681 part > > > that was cheap and available in various flavors. Peripherals back then > > > were quite varied. > > > > I still favor the simple dumb uart chip. TR1602?. I like things than > > you hit reset, it starts ... not like the classic star-trek computers > > that always go down. Usually when you need them. > I always liked them, too, except for the space they required, including the external clock generator(s). > > -- > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > > > Can you still get TR1602's? I remember building something with them (maybe > it was a 1402) and 3341 FIFO's in the 70's > I remember an ad not long ago that listed, among other things, the 1602. I've not seen the 3341 for quite a long while, since there are CMOS versions. > > Peter Wallace > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 21:45:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Ampro Little Board questions... References: <20011216230855.NZGF6523.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <012b01c186ad$3e736a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's what Allison suggested. It might be a mite short, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Ampro Little Board questions... > > From: Richard Erlacher > > > A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little Boards I have, > since > > they use the standard floppy disk cable, which has no twists or cuts. > > Take a "modern" PC dual-fdd cable and cut off the end which has the twist > in it. > > Glen > 0/0 > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 17:58:30 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <003701c18691$edc587d0$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C1D3526.2450095A@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > > A newer chip that can still be found is the WD37C65 > that will do 125ns easily. Or you could easily find a d765 > off an old board or NOS from JDR. The floppy disk chips have arrived in the post friday. I hope to get a chance to pick them monday.I will keep the WD37C65 in mind but "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.". I have added wait states internally for I/O. > Allison > I've built enough to enjoy later parts as I'm old enough to want > it done in a lifetime and the older parts meant tons more support > parts and the requisite connections. Of the latter, the fewer the > better for both buildability and reliability. Well I managed to stick my serial uart in the FPGA. One good feature of 'dumb' hardware is that they can be used for bootstrapping the cpu. (Mind you you still need a rather big prom to boot the FPGA but that is another story) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 18:09:58 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: <20011216213915.NRBS1957.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <00eb01c186a4$b62ac7a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1D37D6.D3D7DF8@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > What they also ought to ban is cross-posting and multi-destination emails. No spam! However crossposting is good providing the information is related. Classiccmp and pdp8 would appropriate. Classiccmp and Yogurt is not. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 16 22:11:27 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: <007a01c18670$4fbadcf0$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <002f01c186b0$e6a4a340$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > {everything about cores} -- Allison Thank-You very much for this. What's your consulting rate? > thats about it. No doubt. John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 18:27:25 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> <3C1D20B1.F2BAF45D@jetnet.ab.ca> <00ff01c186a6$460f8580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1D3BED.CF6EC7E5@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > Why? The WD37C65 is a much easier part to use, and it programs pretty much like > a NEC uPD765, drives the cable directly, and automatically deals with the > data/clock separation for 500 KHz, 250 KHz, and 125 KHz data rates at both 300 > and 360 rpm. You can lift 'em from broken HDC's or order 'em from > www.rocelec.com (Rochester Electronics). They're most common in PLCC-44, which > you should be able to handle, even if, like me, you didn't listen to Mom when > she told you to stop that. It sounds like a nice chip. Since all I have is 3 1/2" 1.44mb drives I will have a fixed 500 Khz clock, thus less programing. Also the chips are cheap if you can find them $7.25 @ BG micro. I was looking some nec? chips at Rochester and they were over $75 each. If you must use a WD part, which I prefer also, then > use a WD179x with a FDC9229. That does everything in two chips, including > selecting the appropriate clocks. The 2797 uses an analog PLL and, unless you > are satisfied with a single data rate, that means multiple filters and analog > muxes, etc. Thanks for the info. While a 2 Mhz machine would have been the speed of system in the 80's I might as well go to 4 Mhz since the FPGA will run that fast. As a side note a 2 Mhz machine is about the same speed as a PDP-8. 1.5us for a jump. 2.5 us for memory access. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 16 22:38:44 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Spam? (was: Re: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks")) In-Reply-To: <3C1D37D6.D3D7DF8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > What they also ought to ban is cross-posting and multi-destination emails. > No spam! However crossposting is good providing the information is > related. Speaking of spam, I've started getting spams since I started posting to this list. Looks like I've ended up on a list of addresses from an email harvesting robot. Needless to say, the spammer is really gonna be sorry by the time I get thru with him/her... -Toth From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Dec 16 22:41:17 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: <200112170441.fBH4fI437919@ns2.ezwind.net> >does it have a spell-checker? ROFL... well, I assume it does... and so does the email client I use... I just never use the spell checker... sorry, dyslexia has completely destroyed my ability to spell a damn thing, and I (as well as most everyone I write to) have accepted this fact, so I just don't use spell check as often as I really should. Heck... consider yourself lucky, I only made 3 errors in the last email (Strictly and default x2) But just for you... I spel chekt this emial :-) -chris From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 22:45:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> <3C1D20B1.F2BAF45D@jetnet.ab.ca> <00ff01c186a6$460f8580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1D3BED.CF6EC7E5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <015f01c186b5$99d41460$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Rochester isn't cheap, but they listed the PLCC-44 parts at $18.10, IIRC. The last time I bought a WD controller (1979), it cost over $90, so the sticker shock isn't an issue. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 5:27 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Why? The WD37C65 is a much easier part to use, and it programs pretty much like > > a NEC uPD765, drives the cable directly, and automatically deals with the > > data/clock separation for 500 KHz, 250 KHz, and 125 KHz data rates at both 300 > > and 360 rpm. You can lift 'em from broken HDC's or order 'em from > > www.rocelec.com (Rochester Electronics). They're most common in PLCC-44, which > > you should be able to handle, even if, like me, you didn't listen to Mom when > > she told you to stop that. > > It sounds like a nice chip. Since all I have is 3 1/2" 1.44mb drives I > will > have a fixed 500 Khz clock, thus less programing. Also the chips are > cheap > if you can find them $7.25 @ BG micro. I was looking some nec? chips at > Rochester > and they were over $75 each. > > If you must use a WD part, which I prefer also, then > > use a WD179x with a FDC9229. That does everything in two chips, including > > selecting the appropriate clocks. The 2797 uses an analog PLL and, unless you > > are satisfied with a single data rate, that means multiple filters and analog > > muxes, etc. > > Thanks for the info. While a 2 Mhz machine would have been the speed of > system in the 80's I might as well go to 4 Mhz since the FPGA will run > that fast. > As a side note a 2 Mhz machine is about the same speed as a PDP-8. 1.5us > for a jump. > 2.5 us for memory access. > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 19:14:12 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: <200112170441.fBH4fI437919@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3C1D46E4.76C2F35C@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris wrote: > > >does it have a spell-checker? > > ROFL... well, I assume it does... and so does the email client I use... I > just never use the spell checker... sorry, dyslexia has completely > destroyed my ability to spell a damn thing, and I (as well as most > everyone I write to) have accepted this fact, so I just don't use spell > check as often as I really should. Heck... consider yourself lucky, I > only made 3 errors in the last email (Strictly and default x2) > > But just for you... I spel chekt this emial :-) > > -chris > > It is my grammer that needs help now and then. :) We must use the same spel chekt'r two. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 22:50:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") References: <200112170441.fBH4fI437919@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <016b01c186b6$5488b5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Thank you! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 9:41 PM Subject: Re: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") > But just for you... I spel chekt this emial :-) > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 16 22:49:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> <3C1D20B1.F2BAF45D@jetnet.ab.ca> <00ff01c186a6$460f8580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1D3BED.CF6EC7E5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <016301c186b6$2eda1aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just how does the FPGA fit in here? With a 179x and a 9229, you need only a pal and an oscillator. With a 2797 and no need for data rate changes, i.e. 500 KHz only and MFM only, you only need the 2 MHz oscillator for the 2797 and an address decoder with which to generate the select. You may want some logic to generate the wait-states, else your CPU may not make it around the horn, so to speak, in a loop that gets in sync and then stays there at 2 microseconds per bit. What goes in the FPGA? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 5:27 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Richard Erlacher wrote: ... While a 2 Mhz machine would have been the speed of > system in the 80's I might as well go to 4 Mhz since the FPGA will run > that fast. As a side note a 2 Mhz machine is about the same speed as a PDP-8. 1.5us > for a jump. 2.5 us for memory access. > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From donm at cts.com Sun Dec 16 23:18:57 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011217022238.78791.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anyone familiar with the Sierra? Altos Z-80 based clone produced in San Diego that came in a single user version and a multiuser/processor version - presumably for business. - don From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Dec 16 23:40:33 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) Message-ID: <20011217053956.ESAF22142.imf28bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com > >>Gee, a message from an AOL user with no HTML . . . imagine that . . . > harrumph, will wonders ever fuckin cease? Well, gee, no offense, it's just that html messages are a PITA to read with my reader, and most lists and newsgroups frown on HTML posts. > >> Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. > > >Okay, I'll bite: why isn't it? > > figure it out yourself, google is around for a reason Google certainly is here for a reason, and I can do a search anytime I like. My reason for asking is that you had stated an opinion, and I was curious to find out more about your stated opinion. Based on the hostility of your reply, I'll assume I was mistaken in asking. Sheesh, man, what are you so pissed off about? This is a friendly list. If you are so afraid of expressing your opinions, may I respectfully suggest that you confine them to alt.flame.niggers, where you will find a lot of other cowards to associate with. FYI, I think it's a "made up" holiday and just wanted to know what your thoughts were. Glen 0/0 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 20:37:53 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> <3C1D20B1.F2BAF45D@jetnet.ab.ca> <00ff01c186a6$460f8580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1D3BED.CF6EC7E5@jetnet.ab.ca> <016301c186b6$2eda1aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1D5A81.A767FAE0@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Just how does the FPGA fit in here? > > With a 179x and a 9229, you need only a pal and an oscillator. With a 2797 and > no need for data rate changes, i.e. 500 KHz only and MFM only, you only need the > 2 MHz oscillator for the 2797 and an address decoder with which to generate the > select. You may want some logic to generate the wait-states, else your CPU may > not make it around the horn, so to speak, in a loop that gets in sync and then > stays there at 2 microseconds per bit. > > What goes in the FPGA? The CPU of course. Most of the last bit of fidgeting has been getting the wait states just right. This is a 12/24 bit cpu that has a strong PDP-8/6809/2901 bitslice influence.The cpu design is a 'what if scenario' based on a fictional TTL computer of the late 1970's. Version #1 of the FPGA 1.5 Mhz? - 74LS381-74LS382 ALU, 74189 RAM - auto boot from paper tape?. Not quite sure when 74LS381's came out. Version #2 of the FPGA - Monolithic chip - 3.0 Mhz -better timing - refresh logic - 40 pin dip - boot from PROM? About 50% of the FPGA is data path (24 bits). 25% control - 43 states. 25% uart and glue. It all just fits in a Altera 10K10 84 pin PLCC -- 576 logic cells. At the moment I am using a FPGA prototype board with 32KB of static ram and a Maxim buffer for the serial port in the FPGA. A few leds and switches remain from debuging the CPU and memory. A old PC is used for program development and I/O to the prototype board. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 17 00:45:52 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Spam? (was: Re: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks")) In-Reply-To: from Tothwolf at "Dec 16, 1 10:38:44 pm" Message-ID: <200112170645.WAA07916@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > What they also ought to ban is cross-posting and multi-destination emails. > > No spam! However crossposting is good providing the information is > > related. > Speaking of spam, I've started getting spams since I started posting to > this list. Looks like I've ended up on a list of addresses from an email > harvesting robot. Needless to say, the spammer is really gonna be sorry by > the time I get thru with him/her... So has this address, which is nominally private. While classiccmp isn't necessarily to blame, I'd still like E-mail addresses obscured or at least made non-obvious to bots in the archives. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Intel outside -- 6502 inside! ---------------------------------------------- From jss at subatomix.com Mon Dec 17 01:39:33 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011217012338.V86991-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > What I've not been able to find anywhere around here (middle of the > > USA) are PDPs besides PDP-11s and PDP-8s. > > > > I would like to find a PDP-10 or descendant, a -12, or even a -9 or > > -15. > > The PDP-9 is fairly rare. There were 445 built, and we've been able > to locate 8 or 9 survivors. PDP-10's are a bit more common. I'll call a PDP-10 common when I find one, and even then only if I have the money to haul it away and store it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 17 02:30:17 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <10112161226.ZM21857@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Dec 16, 9:51, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Mark Crispin wrote: > > > > I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any > electronic > > > equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. > > > > I'll have to agree. > > As has been said before, what do you think manufacturers do at the end of a > production line? They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a hughe difference. > Yes, a certain amount of care is required, and certain > things can't tolerate being soaked or being too hot or given too much > mechanical agitation (stress). Which all are things I suspect a normal dishwasher might do. > But how would you deal with a piece of > equipment that was smoke damaged or had been left in the rain or had fallen > in a river or had been infested with vermin or had a can of Coke spilled in > it? I've had to deal with all of those and more over the last two decades, > and washing is the only way. Grab a bottle of isopropanol, some swabs, and start working. > I don't advocate unneccessary cleaning, but sometimes it's required. I'd still never use a dishwasher. > > > It may be alright to (gently!) vaccuum away dust and deteriorated foam > > > rubber, although a feather duster may be more appropriate. I would not > > > risk anything else, and certainly not insert anything (including water > or > > > alcohol) under the plexiglass shield protecting the core. > > > > Vacuum cleaning (gently!) is about the only thing I'd recommend. > > Be careful about that. Allison's warning about ESD is quite real. Don't > even think about a feather duster; at least, not if it's a synthetic one. ESD should never be ignored, but in the case of computer from the 60s and 70s, ESD is really not an issue. We don't have CMOS, we have old style MSI TTL here... It is not ESD sensitive. You can literally zap those circuits, and they will work just fine. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 17 05:08:35 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just In-Reply-To: from "Huw Davies" at Dec 16, 2001 08:30:21 AM Message-ID: <200112171108.fBHB8aN21240@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > The commercial VAX simulator is extremely expensive, and the SIMH and TS10 > > aren't there yet. Even so, the keyword was "native". I don't want the > > performance hit that comes with running an emulation. > > I agree that Charon-VAX is expensive but seeing how well SIMH has gone > with the other emultations I would expect that it will provide a bootable > VAX environment shortly. Yes, it will provide a bootable VAX environment shortly, but as I said it is still emulation. > The problem with the Alphabook was that it's not exactly fast and > the battery life is short. They are also hard to find and expensive > should you find one. I suspect that a 1GHz laptop will run a VAX > emulation faster than the Alphabook with better battery life too. I'm guessing the Alphabook will still be faster than an emulated VAX on a 1GHz laptop, since that will probably be about the equivalent to a MV3600 (that's what the Charon emulator claims, IIRC). The Alphabook was a bit faster. Still, once the IPF port is done, we should be able to take any standard IPF laptop and load OpenVMS IPF on it. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 21:53:34 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: Message-ID: <3C1D6C3E.BAB3D89B@jetnet.ab.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: > > ESD should never be ignored, but in the case of computer from the 60s and > 70s, ESD is really not an issue. We don't have CMOS, we have old style MSI > TTL here... It is not ESD sensitive. You can literally zap those > circuits, and they will work just fine. I don't think a soaking wet board could have a ESD problem. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 07:08:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? References: Message-ID: <000701c186fb$dfcc3560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not absolutely sure about such things, but, having had to sit through the annual ESD classes year after year in order to maintain my cert's when I was in aerospace, ISTR that the "old" TTL was ESD sensitive to a point, and I seem to remember something about TTL having a threshold of 2KV for ESD sensitivity. That suggests that while it's not as likely to go poof at the slightest ESD, you can't "ZAP" it without harming it. Since the "ZAP" that you feel when reaching for the doorknob is >50KV, typically, the 2KV would hardly be noticed. As for that dishwasher, what does it do that thorough washing in water that's quite hot, and brushing with a brush and using detergents that dissolve flux, etc, as is often done in PCB manufacture, particularly where rework is concerned? The "DRY" cycle is unwarranted, but the rest of the operation, so long as one takes some pains to avoid gettin residual garbage already in the dishwasher in the connectors, etc, is not likely to hurt the board or its components, unless you have a leaky relay or some such mechanincal part that needs protection from water. The tape on some unductors may have a problem with water, too, so a visual inspection might be warranted. Hot water, soap, scrubbing, etc, are all common in cleaning and maintaining PCB's. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johnny Billquist" To: "PDP8-Lovers" Cc: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:30 AM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > > ... Allison's warning about ESD is quite real. Don't > > even think about a feather duster; at least, not if it's a synthetic one. > > ESD should never be ignored, but in the case of computer from the 60s and > 70s, ESD is really not an issue. We don't have CMOS, we have old style MSI > TTL here... It is not ESD sensitive. You can literally zap those > circuits, and they will work just fine. > > Johnny > > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 17 13:21:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 17, 6:08) References: <000701c186fb$dfcc3560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10112171921.ZM24572@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 17, 6:08, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm not absolutely sure about such things, but, having had to sit through the > annual ESD classes year after year in order to maintain my cert's when I was in > aerospace, ISTR that the "old" TTL was ESD sensitive to a point, and I seem to > remember something about TTL having a threshold of 2KV for ESD sensitivity. > That suggests that while it's not as likely to go poof at the slightest ESD, you > can't "ZAP" it without harming it. Since the "ZAP" that you feel when reaching > for the doorknob is >50KV, typically, the 2KV would hardly be noticed. That sounds about right to me. The instructor on my ESD classes in the 80's probably read the same books and data sheets that yours did. You certainly wouldn't notice a few kV picked up by walking across a carpeted room if it had a few seconds to dissipate before you touched something that would discharge it instantly. I remember one school who had a lot of BBC Microcomupters in the mid-80's. All was well with them, until they had a building refurbishment, and the micros wer moved to a new room with carpet tiles. They had endless trouble after that, with machines resetting at odd times, misbehaving in unexpected ways, and so on. When one finally stopped working altogether and I was asked to look, I asked about the carpet. I suggested they mist it periodically with well-diluted carpet cleaner to reduce static, and the problems went away (I repaired the faulty machine -- it had a blown LS TTL chip, which may or may not have been coincidence). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 07:45:29 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <002801c18701$17fc1cc0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Hi, I do cookies. It was something I did years ago{30+} to understand all that stuff. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? >> {everything about cores} -- Allison > >Thank-You very much for this. What's your consulting rate? > >> thats about it. > >No doubt. > >John A. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 07:55:55 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <004301c18702$8d7628a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Johnny Billquist >> As has been said before, what do you think manufacturers do at the end of a >> production line? > >They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a >hughe difference. Many did as it was cheaper than the commercial version. >> Be careful about that. Allison's warning about ESD is quite real. Don't >> even think about a feather duster; at least, not if it's a synthetic one. > >ESD should never be ignored, but in the case of computer from the 60s and >70s, ESD is really not an issue. We don't have CMOS, we have old style MSI >TTL here... It is not ESD sensitive. You can literally zap those >circuits, and they will work just fine. Sorry, not so. DEC did a study in the logistics flow to see why DOA boards were a problem. The reason was ESD even on older PDP-8 and PDP-11 modules. The test and solution was ESD procedures or all modules and the fail rate went down significantly. Seems for TTL while ESD generally didn't kill it it can and did damage the passivation or input protection leading to longer term failures that were chalked up to infant mortality. Characateristics that were often seen degraded were input thresholds, input sink currents, output leakage for open collector and tristate devices. With the rarity and parts availability of older machines a bit of care is warrented if only to reduce troubleshooting time and 90 day failures. Allison From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Dec 17 10:41:07 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011217103527.00aa3010@127.0.0.1> Johnny, Vacuum cleaning is much more "dangerous" for a PCB than washing it. Pete made a very good point, one I had forgotten, the static charge created by dust moving through an insulated (plastic) pipe can generate some obscene voltages. Remember the old science experiment involving the comb generating static electricity? That voltage is enough to wipe nearly the entire board. Like I said before, don't take my word for it. Take an old, dirty board that you know works, and run it through the dishwasher. Dot use the plate warmer or drying functions. At the end of the cycle, remove it, shake it off, and allow it to dry for several days (hang it up). Plug it back in - it'll work. And it'll look nearly new..... - Matt > > > I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic > > equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. > >I'll have to agree. > > > It may be alright to (gently!) vaccuum away dust and deteriorated foam > > rubber, although a feather duster may be more appropriate. I would not > > risk anything else, and certainly not insert anything (including water or > > alcohol) under the plexiglass shield protecting the core. > >Vacuum cleaning (gently!) is about the only thing I'd recommend. > > >Exterior cleaning can be considered harmless, but have very little to do >with functionality as well. Clean to your hearts content, as long as you >stay on the outside. > > Johnny > >Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip >email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books >pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 17 16:06:13 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Matthew Sell "Re: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 17, 10:41) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011217103527.00aa3010@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <10112172206.ZM24729@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 17, 10:41, Matthew Sell wrote: > Vacuum cleaning is much more "dangerous" for a PCB than washing it. > > Pete made a very good point, one I had forgotten, the static charge created > by dust moving through an insulated (plastic) pipe can generate some > obscene voltages. > > Remember the old science experiment involving the comb generating static > electricity? That voltage is enough to wipe nearly the entire board. Of course, one has to be realistic about all this. Vacuuming a PCB with the aid of a soft paintbrush isn't likly to do much harm if the vacuum nozzle is metal and you're holding it and you're grounded, because the static on the nozzle is unlikely to build up to excessive levels. > Remember the old science experiment involving the comb generating static > electricity? That voltage is enough to wipe nearly the entire board. > > Like I said before, don't take my word for it. Take an old, dirty board > that you know works, and run it through the dishwasher. Dot use the plate > warmer or drying functions. At the end of the cycle, remove it, shake it > off, and allow it to dry for several days (hang it up). Plug it back in - > it'll work. > > And it'll look nearly new..... > > > - Matt -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Dec 17 11:16:26 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: References: <10112161226.ZM21857@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011217104628.00aa0ea0@127.0.0.1> Johnny, > As has been said before, what do you think manufacturers do at the end of a > > production line? > >They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a >hughe difference. Wrong. One manufacturer I worked for used a commercial Hobart dishwasher that was modified by an electronics distributer to include racks specifically made to handle printed circuit boards. This "boardwasher" was literally a dishwasher. Not a unique setup, either. You say there is a huge difference. What are the differences? Every boardwashing setup at every manufacturer I've consulted or been an employee of used a system that washes boards using higher water pressure and temperature than your common household dishwasher. If you are referring to a big difference, then I guess you are right. Your dishwasher is *MUCH* more gentle for the items being cleaned than the typical commercial boardwasher. > > I don't advocate unneccessary cleaning, but sometimes it's required. > >I'd still never use a dishwasher. I'm offering the suggestion that people try using their dishwasher to give the computer the bath it really needs. I put (with the exceptions mentioned in previous posts) all of my boards and control panels through the wash. Every one of them works after drying. After 10 years of using this method commercially and in my hobbies, I haven't had a single failure. And... it's a heck of a lot faster than cleaning by hand.... : ) - Matt P.S. - TTL logic *IS* static sensitive, just not nearly to the extent that MOS is. Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 17 12:09:08 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011217104628.00aa0ea0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: > They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a > hughe difference. I was at a place that actually had a "Maytag BOARDwasher"! But the font of "BOARD" wasn't an exact match to the font of "washer", and peeling it revealed the word "dish" underneath. Nobody could recall where they had gotten it, and whether the conversion was factory or local. The racks were different from those in a dishwasher; I never could figure out what the shelf/rack on the left side of Maytags was for. From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Dec 17 11:19:57 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <3C1D6C3E.BAB3D89B@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011217111815.032d2518@127.0.0.1> Ben, The ESD issue came up after is was suggested that it might be safer to vacuum a board than to wash it. The exact opposite is true. Vacuuming creates harmful static electricity - and can "zap" the board. - Matt >I don't think a soaking wet board could have a ESD problem. > >-- >Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 17 11:37:03 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? (Johnny Billquist) References: <10112161226.ZM21857@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15390.11583.164603.890943@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 17, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any > > electronic > > > > equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher. > > > > > > I'll have to agree. > > > > As has been said before, what do you think manufacturers do at the end of a > > production line? > > They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a > hughe difference. I dunno, man...I've only come into contact with two commercial board washers in the past, and they were very much like dishwashers...right down to the fold-down front door and the spinning sprayer, except the spinning sprayers were at the top in these units. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 17 12:49:47 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <15390.11583.164603.890943@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 17, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a > > hughe difference. > > I dunno, man...I've only come into contact with two commercial board > washers in the past, and they were very much like dishwashers...right > down to the fold-down front door and the spinning sprayer, except the > spinning sprayers were at the top in these units. One thing I do know is that until recently, noone even used water to clean the boards. Some have now started using water, but many still use other cleaning fluids. The reason I know is that this is considered an environmental problem, and have created some headlines from time to time. Other things, that are more guesswork on my part is that they don't have the same temperature as a normal dishwasher. I would also be concerned about remenants of detergent in a dishwasher. Clean water itself should not be a problem. Anything gets wet, just let it dry properly, and no harm will have been done. Hot water however can be damaging to old components that are becoming brittle. Especially if you spray with high pressure. So, temperature, pressure, and detergent are the reasons I wouldn't use a dishwasher. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Mon Dec 17 11:40:48 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE02198F@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Sell [mailto:msell@ontimesupport.com] > Sent: 17 December 2001 16:41 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? > > Like I said before, don't take my word for it. Take an old, > dirty board > that you know works, and run it through the dishwasher. Dot > use the plate > warmer or drying functions. At the end of the cycle, remove > it, shake it > off, and allow it to dry for several days (hang it up). Plug > it back in - > it'll work. I this has already been mentioned, but also don't put boards in that have any sort of battery fitted or removeable labels you want to keep stuck on.... -- adrian From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Dec 17 11:43:18 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: For laughs, take a look at http://www.help-net.com/computer%20buddies/pc911/clean_your_hard_drive.htm -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Sell [mailto:msell@ontimesupport.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:16 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Wrong. One manufacturer I worked for used a commercial Hobart dishwasher that was modified by an electronics distributer to include racks specifically made to handle printed circuit boards. This "boardwasher" was literally a dishwasher. Not a unique setup, either. You say there is a huge difference. What are the differences? Every boardwashing setup at every manufacturer I've consulted or been an employee of used a system that washes boards using higher water pressure and temperature than your common household dishwasher. If you are referring to a big difference, then I guess you are right. Your dishwasher is *MUCH* more gentle for the items being cleaned than the typical commercial boardwasher. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Dec 17 12:30:45 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673EC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > Like I said before, don't take my word for it. Take an old, ! > dirty board ! > that you know works, and run it through the dishwasher. Dot ! > use the plate ! > warmer or drying functions. At the end of the cycle, remove ! > it, shake it ! > off, and allow it to dry for several days (hang it up). Plug ! > it back in - ! > it'll work. ! ! I this has already been mentioned, but also don't put boards ! in that have ! any sort of battery fitted or removeable labels you want to keep stuck ! on.... ! ! -- ! adrian ! Course, you could always remove the labels first, put them on wax paper, then stick them back on after drying. If the adhesive won't hold anymore, clear packing tape, trimmed to just a little bigger than the label, should work. And protect it too, since the label is most likely only paper. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 12:41:59 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <001c01c1872a$84ea2c40$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Matthew Sell >I'm offering the suggestion that people try using their dishwasher to give >the computer the bath it really needs. I put (with the exceptions mentioned >in previous posts) all of my boards and control panels through the wash. >Every one of them works after drying. After 10 years of using this method >commercially and in my hobbies, I haven't had a single failure. Same here and I've used dishwashers for over 20 years. Dirty boards get washed. Even if there are Dip switches or relays I wash them as often they dry ok or are easily replaced. Often the board that didn't work beforehand does after or it's far easier to see the problem. >P.S. - TTL logic *IS* static sensitive, just not nearly to the extent that >MOS is. Correct! Allison From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Dec 17 12:59:51 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011217125057.00ab8c48@127.0.0.1> You probably shouldn't use WD-40.... Better to use a good type of grease. They forgot to install grease fittings.... : ) On a side note, we had a guy from IS about ready to lubricate the bearings on a hard drive once. The situation started with a work order to repair a "squeaking" hard-drive. The real problem was that some joker turned on the "audible network activity" setting on an X-terminal, and it was "chirping" every time it attempted to access the network. Some guy came in on a different shift, and thinking he was a computer expert, quickly came to the conclusion that the hard drive needed replacement because the bearings were shot. Being the budget-minded people we were, we suggested to him that rather than replacing the expensive hard drive, we would ask the Information Services group to send a technician to repair, rather than replace, the hard drive. When the technician arrived we showed him the work order, and demonstrated the "chirping" noise. He agreed with the conclusion of the guy who write the work order that the hard drive really was at fault, and we convinced him that he should take it to the facility maintenance people to have them install a grease fitting on the hard drive and to "lube it up". As he started to take the case off of the terminal we pointed out the network activity setting. We got a good laugh out of it.... - Matt At 10:43 AM 12/17/2001 -0700, you wrote: >For laughs, take a look at >http://www.help-net.com/computer%20buddies/pc911/clean_your_hard_drive.htm Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 17 16:06:16 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist "[PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 17, 9:30) References: Message-ID: <10112172206.ZM24733@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 17, 9:30, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a > hughe difference. I know some who do... Anyway, if the dishwasher doesn't use a hot air drying cycle, there's little difference. > > Yes, a certain amount of care is required, and certain > > things can't tolerate being soaked or being too hot or given too much > > mechanical agitation (stress). > > Which all are things I suspect a normal dishwasher might do. Domestic ones I've seen won't. Apart from the soaking -- that's the point of using it, obviously. Very few things are intolerant: some relays, transformers, a few types of switches, etc, usually just because they take too long to dry out. And core mats, of course, because they're very fragile and extremely hard to repair. > > But how would you deal with a piece of > > equipment that was smoke damaged or had been left in the rain or had fallen > > in a river or had been infested with vermin or had a can of Coke spilled in > > it? I've had to deal with all of those and more over the last two decades, > > and washing is the only way. > > Grab a bottle of isopropanol, some swabs, and start working. Doesn't work well on smoke-damaged boards, Coke, etc, and water is far cheaper and safer (for the user, too). > ESD should never be ignored, but in the case of computer from the 60s and > 70s, ESD is really not an issue. We don't have CMOS, we have old style MSI > TTL here... It is not ESD sensitive. I think you'll find most experts disagree with you there :-) TTL may be much less sensitive than old CMOS and even modern CMOS and TTL replacements, but it is still sensitive and can be damaged by ESD. It's not so likely to be damaged when soldered into a complete circuit, but it's possible. I've had at least two QBus boards damaged by ESD through careless handling. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From menadeau at mediaone.net Mon Dec 17 06:26:28 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: <20011217022238.78791.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001c186f6$10940f20$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer has a detailed account of the Sphere's design flaws and other issues, including kits being sent out incomplete. Veit was a retailer who sold the Sphere when new. Veit stopped selling the Sphere and admits that the company might have fixed some of the problems after that. Do you remember the issue in which the review that the former owner refers to appeared? The earliest Sphere coverage in BYTE is positive, almost fawning. Maybe if the Sphere had been on the cover of Popular Electronics instead of the Altair people would have been more forgiving of its flaws. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loboyko Steve" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 9:22 PM Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > I stumbled upon a link some time ago belonging to a > very bitter former owner of Sphere. The gist of his > article was that Byte Magazine destroyed Sphere with a > very bad review, and, that most computers of that era > took some hacking to work anyway (example: the "clock" > - and I use the term clock charitably - of the > original Altair 8800). > > --- William Donzelli wrote: > > > Ah yeah. Good pick. That is definitely a rare > > beast. I've only ever > > > known one person who had one (I forgot his name, > > he used to be on the list > > > a few years ago). He sold it off to someone else > > and then got out of > > > collecting computers. > > > > Was that me? I have/had three, but they are promised > > to go out West. One of > > those deals that seems to be taking a very long > > time, mostly due to me > > trying to unearth it all and boxing the stuff up. > > > > Anyway, Sphere aparently was one of the early bad > > guys. The computers they > > sold (many as kits, I think) basically did not work. > > Unlike Altair, Sphere > > was trying to break into the business sector, so > > there really was not much > > of an excuse for the crapiness. They all needed a > > huge number of hacks to > > get them to function (my favorite is a a few-mH coil > > made of telephone > > wire kludged onto one of the oscillators, in order > > to keep the thing > > going. Basically, wrap some wire around a pencil, > > and tack solder it into > > place, and adjust accordingly). > > > > William Donzelli > > aw288@osfn.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 07:59:20 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <004a01c18703$0758db40$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Not likely! Sphere back then was the sloppy introduction and viewed as a grab the money and run, ship nothing operation. I'd say it was one of the first in the Vaproware realm. Many that ordered got skunked as Sphere hit with a splash and really did disappear pretty fast. They were the bad guys right up until the World Power Scam, thats another story. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Michael Nadeau To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:52 AM Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers >Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer has a detailed account of the >Sphere's design flaws and other issues, including kits being sent out >incomplete. Veit was a retailer who sold the Sphere when new. Veit stopped >selling the Sphere and admits that the company might have fixed some of the >problems after that. > >Do you remember the issue in which the review that the former owner refers >to appeared? The earliest Sphere coverage in BYTE is positive, almost >fawning. > >Maybe if the Sphere had been on the cover of Popular Electronics instead of >the Altair people would have been more forgiving of its flaws. > >--Mike > >Michael Nadeau >Editorial Services >603-893-2379 >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Loboyko Steve" >To: >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 9:22 PM >Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > > >> I stumbled upon a link some time ago belonging to a >> very bitter former owner of Sphere. The gist of his >> article was that Byte Magazine destroyed Sphere with a >> very bad review, and, that most computers of that era >> took some hacking to work anyway (example: the "clock" >> - and I use the term clock charitably - of the >> original Altair 8800). >> >> --- William Donzelli wrote: >> > > Ah yeah. Good pick. That is definitely a rare >> > beast. I've only ever >> > > known one person who had one (I forgot his name, >> > he used to be on the list >> > > a few years ago). He sold it off to someone else >> > and then got out of >> > > collecting computers. >> > >> > Was that me? I have/had three, but they are promised >> > to go out West. One of >> > those deals that seems to be taking a very long >> > time, mostly due to me >> > trying to unearth it all and boxing the stuff up. >> > >> > Anyway, Sphere aparently was one of the early bad >> > guys. The computers they >> > sold (many as kits, I think) basically did not work. >> > Unlike Altair, Sphere >> > was trying to break into the business sector, so >> > there really was not much >> > of an excuse for the crapiness. They all needed a >> > huge number of hacks to >> > get them to function (my favorite is a a few-mH coil >> > made of telephone >> > wire kludged onto one of the oscillators, in order >> > to keep the thing >> > going. Basically, wrap some wire around a pencil, >> > and tack solder it into >> > place, and adjust accordingly). >> > >> > William Donzelli >> > aw288@osfn.org >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com >> > > From at258 at osfn.org Mon Dec 17 08:10:11 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011217012338.V86991-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: We have 2 KS-10's at the mill. Retro in Providence had a KS-10 and a KL-10 and now has another. Actually, I think one of the KL-10's might be for sale. It needs a lot of work, but you might contact them. osfn.org/rcs, I think. On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > > What I've not been able to find anywhere around here (middle of the > > > USA) are PDPs besides PDP-11s and PDP-8s. > > > > > > I would like to find a PDP-10 or descendant, a -12, or even a -9 or > > > -15. > > > > The PDP-9 is fairly rare. There were 445 built, and we've been able > > to locate 8 or 9 survivors. PDP-10's are a bit more common. > > I'll call a PDP-10 common when I find one, and even then only if I have > the money to haul it away and store it. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 17 09:43:15 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:13 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > We have 2 KS-10's at the mill. Retro in Providence had a KS-10 and a > KL-10 and now has another. Actually, I think one of the KL-10's might be > for sale. It needs a lot of work, but you might contact them. > osfn.org/rcs, I think. The fate of the DECSystem 2065 (the "project") is uncertain at this time, as some want to keep it, some want to trade, sell, or give it away. We already have one person on the list - and as far as I am concerned he has dibs - but if others are interested, please contact me off list. Frankly, we ran out of space when the Sikorsky DECSystem 1090 rolled thru the door, as itis a complete system with lots of drives and lots of core (1.5 MW of it in six MH10 cabinets). The machine is essentially pristine, officially decommissioned by DEC. Sikorsky also treated the machine very well during its working life. Because it needs almost no work to get running, there is no point for RCS/RI to keep the "project", as the two machines are quite similar. These PDP-10s are interesting things - five years ago they were unobtainium, but now a good 20 have popped out of the woodwork (mostly KS10s). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 09:44:28 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011217012338.V86991-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20011217154428.7845.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > I'll call a PDP-10 common when I find one, and even then only if I have > the money to haul it away and store it. I have been told there's a KS-10 somewhere in this town (owned by a former CompuServe employee who got it when CIS switched from DEC -10s to Systems Concepts machines (SC-35 and SC-40 mostly) and 32-bit Intel/BSD hosts. When I track him down, I'll at least get pictures. I'll also see if he's bored with it and make an offer. I'm also working on getting an SC box, but they are still in use at CompuServe and WorldCom. I am _not_ first on anyone's list. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 17 11:20:14 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <01b101c185c5$c9d33c40$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> from Michael Nadeau at "Dec 15, 2001 07:08:22 pm" Message-ID: <200112171720.JAA20948@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I remember the first machine I seriously tried to come up with the money > to buy. > > Anybody else remember the Compucolor? > > I'm not sure I ever learned the technical details of the machine. > > Seems like they disappeared from the scene as fast as they came on. > > Wouldn't mind adding one of those to my inventory but I'm not sure I could > afford to ship it from Timbuck2.... I have a Compucolor II in my inventory, but have never seen (in person) its predecessor. From the specs I've seen, the two models seem identical as far as processor and max memory go. Maybe the II was added in response to Apple's success. Eric From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 13:22:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > There are quite a few mentions of it, most seemingly using just > about the same short blurb, but few pictures. I talked with Michael > Sphere (I think that's the correct name) a little a few years ago and > thought the machine sounded interesting enough. Mike Wise. He was a speaker at VCF 3.0: http://www.vintage.org/vcf99/mw-bio.htm He makes a claim that the Sphere 1 was the "first integrated PC". He also claimed that Steve Wozniak got inspiration for the Apple ][ from the Sphere. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 17 15:23:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Mike Wise. He was a speaker at VCF 3.0: Well, I recalled the first name correctly! >He makes a claim that the Sphere 1 was the "first integrated PC". He also >claimed that Steve Wozniak got inspiration for the Apple ][ from the >Sphere. Yes, I remember some of that. Unfortunately I can't find the email's from our exchange. My email archives only go back to '99 on this machine and it was likely before that. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From hansp at aconit.org Mon Dec 17 13:45:20 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: Message-ID: <3C1E4B50.7060604@aconit.org> Merle K. Peirce wrote: > The PDP-9 is fairly rare. There were 445 built, and we've been able to > locate 8 or 9 survivors. PDP-10's are a bit more common. Just to prove that the question is relative, I am custodian of two of those PDP-9's so not rare at all in my book ;-) -- hbp From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 13:53:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Commodore built a "luggable" C64 with 5in colour CRT and 5.25in drive, > I've never seen one on ebay.... ...recently. They used to come up all the time. They are not rare at all. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 13:58:47 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <004701c18583$487c4c00$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > The early Intecolor and Compucolor ads use the same photo and the > specs are the same. The Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor 8001 are the > same. Compucolor Corp. seems to have been a separate company located > near Intelligent Systems, which produced the Intecolor. I think it > might have been either a private-label deal or a separate company set > up by Intelligent Systems to sell the system. I'd appreciate any > information that anyone on the list might have on this. My Intecolor 8001 has an ISC (Intelligent Systems Corp) badge on it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Dec 17 13:59:00 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <200112150252.fBF2q6p94533@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Douglas Q. wrote: >Ok, we've had threads similar to this one before, but >maybe not quite... > >What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? The Digital Group systems get my vote. I've only *heard* of about 3, since being on this list, which is a while. Maybe because no-one is looking? I can't even imagine finding a full-up system, with several CPU boards, Phi-deck tape drives, and matching cabinets for the monitor, system unit, and tape drives, not to mention all the OS's and other software... well, maybe I can imagine it... >Also not intended as the thrust of the topic: > > Systems you most of all want oops. But maybe there is some overlap? - Mark From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 15:42:42 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Mark Tapley wrote: > The Digital Group systems get my vote. I've only *heard* of about 3, > since being on this list, which is a while. Maybe because no-one is > looking? I can't even imagine finding a full-up system, with several > CPU boards, Phi-deck tape drives, and matching cabinets for the > monitor, system unit, and tape drives, not to mention all the OS's and > other software... well, maybe I can imagine it... Yep, I'd agree here too. I have one complete system, and aside from that, the only other one I've ever seen was a kit sold at VCF 2.0 (or was it 3.0)? It was Chuck McManis' first computer I think (and he claims to not regret it :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 14:10:59 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > Intecolor was based in Georgia (Norcoss?) if I remember correctly. Correct. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 14:11:28 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <01b101c185c5$c9d33c40$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > I've only seen one Compucolor 8001 system, in 1981. It was destroyed > in front of a firing squad--long story. We have time :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 15:23:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, William Donzelli wrote: > Was that me? I have/had three, but they are promised to go out West. > One of those deals that seems to be taking a very long time, mostly > due to me trying to unearth it all and boxing the stuff up. No, I didn't know you had any (or maybe I did but have since forgotten). I forgot the guy's name. He was in New Jersey. > Anyway, Sphere aparently was one of the early bad guys. The computers > they sold (many as kits, I think) basically did not work. Unlike > Altair, Sphere was trying to break into the business sector, so there > really was not much of an excuse for the crapiness. They all needed a > huge number of hacks to get them to function (my favorite is a a > few-mH coil made of telephone wire kludged onto one of the > oscillators, in order to keep the thing going. Basically, wrap some > wire around a pencil, and tack solder it into place, and adjust > accordingly). I've read many stories about how poor Sphere's were, which is why they didn't last very long. Stan Veit's book has a good account of their kludgy nature and vapory marketing. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 15:28:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011217022238.78791.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Loboyko Steve wrote: > I stumbled upon a link some time ago belonging to a very bitter former > owner of Sphere. The gist of his article was that Byte Magazine > destroyed Sphere with a very bad review, and, that most computers of > that era took some hacking to work anyway (example: the "clock" - and > I use the term clock charitably - of the original Altair 8800). That was probably Mike Wise. He's the only one that still seems to be trying to wrest some glory from the 70s. It was generally acknolwedged that the Sphere was crap, as evidenced by the fact that not many were made and the stories about them are pretty negative (and a bad review in Byte was probably deserved). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 06:38:38 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B62@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > In practice the solution is to accept the fact that specs, no matter > how much they are labored over, are for most efforts soft, and > then describe mechanism to deal with uncertainty as part of the > development process. Rapid prototype, stepwise refinement, > the understanding that one cannot test their way to correctness and > a willingness to throw at least one implementation completely > away, coupled with small, agile teams that work with an active > user community empirically produce more correct results in less > time that alternative techniques. This all sounds very familiar... > Not like any of this is new. Brooks described this eons ago > in _The Mythical Man Month_... Ah, now I know why... insert here. I can't tell you how many managers I've wanted to strangle using the prototype code they demanded I push into production... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 06:51:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B63@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Jim Arnott wrote: > > > > And what's the difference between an engineering project and Christmas? > > > > None. You do all the work and the fat guy in the suit gets all the credit. > > > > (did I read that here?) > > > > Jim > > And pay too! Well, The Jolly Old Elf has to deal with some less-than-pleasant happening.... the local radio stations have a Christmas song in rotation titled "I Farted on Santa's Lap"... we should be so lucky that the fat cats in suits would have one land on them... -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 17 11:56:26 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFC9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Goodwin [mailto:acme_ent@bellsouth.net] > even familiar with. The problem with the fellow you refer to is > 1 -- The person who hired him. That person should be > disposed of in the > most painful way possible. Yep. Stupid (and/or ignorant) people in positions of power. Common, but regrettable. > 2 -- The institution which granted him a degree (if any). See my comment regarding #1. It applies here too. :) > I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape > their way into > a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really > write code > *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree > and don't > think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. My opinion too. In fact, I haven't got a degree yet, myself. I do plan on eventually getting one, but it seems to me that most of the first three years of any degree program (even some two-year degrees ;) are filler, and there's only about a year (or less) of actual learning in there. I expect the amount of actual learning you'd have to do will also decrease with field-experience, so I'm not in a big hurry to acquire a sheet of paper. I do believe that at least some parts of any degree program could teach me something, though. The only question is whether it's something I wouldn't learn on my own. I do happen to be more pro-active about learning than most people. > But . . . > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . Depending on the license it may not be a bad idea ;) Really, though, I think that programmers shouldn't need to be licensed. Maybe managers should be licensed instead? Back to the problem with the programmer, though, I see this particular thing too much. There's an intense lack of fundamental understanding in most people who work with computers, and it really disgusts me. To use this as a specific example, this guy knew how to write some (really convoluted) stuff that the c++ compiler would accept, but had no real understanding of how or why any of it worked (or not.. ;) I'm not saying that to get an entry level job in the field you should need to know the machine architecture like the back of your hand, but you should at least know the basics and be willing to learn the rest. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 17 15:43:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFC9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 17, 1 11:56:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011217/4e85d65e/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 14:01:20 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <20011215102631.X83594-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > For a little bit of on-topic goodness, what is the group's opinion on > the trend of software engineering quality starting from ancient times? > Have we improved (practially, not academically) or worsened? I think it's about stayed the same. Programmers were, are, and will always be lazy and impatient. If you look at Microsoft code excluisvely, one could make a good argument that we've worsened considerably. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Mon Dec 17 16:07:48 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: > > For a little bit of on-topic goodness, what is the group's opinion on > > the trend of software engineering quality starting from ancient times? > > Have we improved (practially, not academically) or worsened? > >I think it's about stayed the same. Programmers were, are, and will >always be lazy and impatient. > >If you look at Microsoft code excluisvely, one could make a good argument >that we've worsened considerably. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org As a software quality professional involved in the industry for nearly 30 years, I would contend that the quality of software is far worse today than previously. I think this has come about for several reasons. 1.) The tools the developers use to create software has made it "acceptible" to take shortcuts in the documentation, design, and testing of software. When I first started in engineering, every project was completely documented and desk checked BEFORE any code was written. While best practices indicates this is the correct way to engineer any project, cost was the real driving force for this methodology. When you had to punch cards, and schedule time on a mainframe to compile an application, it was easy to see the cost savings in doing it right the first time. If a programmer (they weren't called developers back then) wrote an application and it bombed, it could be several days before the code would be recompiled. The costs in doing that were pretty obvious and management simply would not allow a programmer to write code until everything else was complete. In todays environment, a developer can compile the application on their workstation in a matter of seconds. You can make a code change, compile the application, and test a module in just a few seconds. While that sounds like an effective way to work, those shortcuts lead to an overall lack of quality. Most developers where I currently work, write the code first then create documentation that reflects the way their software works. Worst of all, uninformed management believes this is the most efficient way to create software. 2.) The current business environment places tremendous value on being the "first to market". This is true even if the software is completely non-functional. As long as you release it before your competitors, you've got an advantage. Even if it doesn't work! 3.) The explosion of the Internet has brought a lot of people into the software development arena that should be in other professions. In recent years, anyone that knew a language's syntax could get a job as a developer. "Knowing the syntax does not a developer make". Hmmm... That could be my new sig file :-) 4.) Lower user expectations. My $.02 SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 07:10:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> <3C1D20B1.F2BAF45D@jetnet.ab.ca> <00ff01c186a6$460f8580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1D3BED.CF6EC7E5@jetnet.ab.ca> <016301c186b6$2eda1aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1D5A81.A767FAE0@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001701c186fc$37d570a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OK ... I missed that somewhere along the way. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 7:37 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Just how does the FPGA fit in here? > > > > With a 179x and a 9229, you need only a pal and an oscillator. With a 2797 and > > no need for data rate changes, i.e. 500 KHz only and MFM only, you only need the > > 2 MHz oscillator for the 2797 and an address decoder with which to generate the > > select. You may want some logic to generate the wait-states, else your CPU may > > not make it around the horn, so to speak, in a loop that gets in sync and then > > stays there at 2 microseconds per bit. > > > > What goes in the FPGA? > The CPU of course. Most of the last bit of fidgeting has been getting > the wait states just right. This is a 12/24 bit cpu that has a strong > PDP-8/6809/2901 bitslice influence.The cpu design is a 'what if > scenario' based on a fictional TTL computer of the late 1970's. Version > #1 of the FPGA 1.5 Mhz? - 74LS381-74LS382 ALU, 74189 RAM - auto boot > from paper tape?. Not quite sure when 74LS381's came out. > Version #2 of the FPGA - Monolithic chip - 3.0 Mhz -better timing - > refresh logic - 40 pin dip - boot from PROM? > About 50% of the FPGA is data path (24 bits). 25% control - 43 states. > 25% uart and glue. It all just fits in a Altera 10K10 84 pin PLCC -- 576 > logic cells. > At the moment I am using a FPGA prototype board with 32KB of static ram > and > a Maxim buffer for the serial port in the FPGA. A few leds and switches > remain from > debuging the CPU and memory. A old PC is used for program development > and I/O to the > prototype board. > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 07:39:14 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <001a01c18700$38bdd800$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Richard Erlacher >would have worked out. I think it might have given the Z80 and edge. Coming up >with a fair and general test might be difficult. I'd liken 6502 VS z80 as one of those depends on what you like things. Both have stood the test of time far better than many others. >The Z80 itself wasn't a bad CPU, but the peripheral set they built for it, with >its compromises in favor of the mode-2 interrupts meant that you couldn't use >wait-states on I/O cycles or on device chip selects to adjust the CPU to the I agree, most designers did too. Look at most Z80 designs out there and it was Z80 with NON-Zilog peripherals. Mode 2 with a little external glue to use with non zilog was a very potent config. >slower peripherals because it had to be looking over the CPU's shoulder to catch >the interrupt acknowledge and the RETI instruction. I've recently worked this >out by switching the clock rate during I/O and during a pending or current >interrupt, but it's still a PAIN! What's more, it seems to require more than >just a PAL. Handshake logic from a 4-bit wide FIFO (16 pins) seems to be the >tool for keeping track of interrupts and their dismissal. :) Me, I dont use slow Zilog peripherals. The last time I used Zilog IO it was the 5330 SCC that ran comfortably at 10mhz with it's own DMA. A TTL implementation of the mode 2 interrupts made for a nice system as it could run fast, though I never bothered with RETI, as that not required and adds much to the logic load. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 08:54:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <001a01c18700$38bdd800$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <000f01c1870a$b8fd1120$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The problem is with the fact that the fastest CPU's run at 20 MHz, while the fastest peripherals only work up to 10 MHz. I could live without the Mode-2 interrupts, but if I'm hot-rodding existing designs, the idea is to use the existing software. If I've got to use new code, I'd rather use a modern CPU, e.g. 89C420 (50 MIPS). Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 6:39 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > From: Richard Erlacher > >would have worked out. I think it might have given the Z80 and edge. > Coming up > >with a fair and general test might be difficult. > > > I'd liken 6502 VS z80 as one of those depends on what you like things. > Both have stood the test of time far better than many others. > > >The Z80 itself wasn't a bad CPU, but the peripheral set they built for it, > with > >its compromises in favor of the mode-2 interrupts meant that you couldn't > use > >wait-states on I/O cycles or on device chip selects to adjust the CPU to > the > > > I agree, most designers did too. Look at most Z80 designs out there and it > was Z80 with NON-Zilog peripherals. Mode 2 with a little external glue to > use > with non zilog was a very potent config. > > >slower peripherals because it had to be looking over the CPU's shoulder to > catch > >the interrupt acknowledge and the RETI instruction. I've recently worked > this > >out by switching the clock rate during I/O and during a pending or current > >interrupt, but it's still a PAIN! What's more, it seems to require more > than > >just a PAL. Handshake logic from a 4-bit wide FIFO (16 pins) seems to be > the > >tool for keeping track of interrupts and their dismissal. > > > :) Me, I dont use slow Zilog peripherals. The last time I used Zilog IO it > was > the 5330 SCC that ran comfortably at 10mhz with it's own DMA. A TTL > implementation of the mode 2 interrupts made for a nice system as it could > run fast, though I never bothered with RETI, as that not required and adds > much to the logic load. > > Allison > > From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Dec 17 11:13:28 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <00c401c1869d$1ed445e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Peter, you're missing the point. However, first of all, EP6xx an EP9xx were not > of the classic "PAL" genre. They were early CPLD's, since they contained, the > equivalent of two or more PALs. Those were quite expensive, particularly in the > Altera cases, since, although Intel and TI made the physical parts for them, > they disguised it enough that folks thought of the Intel parts as being quite > different, hence quite expensive, thereby not placing cost pressure on ALTERA. > Since the TI parts were identical, their agreement with Altera apparently was > that they'd be noncompetetive. The OTP's which were quite inexpensive, were, at > least in the case of the EP6xx and EP3xx quite reasonable, though not as > inexpensive as the 16R/L/Xnn bipolar parts from TI, NS, MMI, Signetics, and AMD > among others. > > The PAL16R/L/Xnnn series were quite a bit less costly, faster, and more > straightforward in their application than the Altera parts, however, costing <$2 > in production lots. I think you are missing the point, In 1981 PALS were expensive... As far as the EPXXX Parts go, I was just mentioning when we first used programmable logic. We made low power systems so we had to wait until CMOS parts were available at a reasonable price. When we started using Altera, there was no second source, Intel parts were available only a few years later, and TI after that (and only a few parts) > > You could without much ado accomplish the same tasks with TTL MSI/SSI. It's > still not rocket science, and still not expensive, except that more than one > component is involved. Several I/O board makers did that with 8250's as well. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a > Z80 > > > > > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose > of any > > > > > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or > equivalent > > > > > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the > thing in > > > > > an hour or less. > > > > > > > > Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > > > > expensive. > > > > It was as trivial then as now, if you preferred TTL SSI/MSI logic. I think you > could do it with a 74LS00 and a 74LS74. That's about $0.25 for the two back > then. Not quite, you need to generate a wait state so IORQ is more than 200 nS long (since we lost a cycle generating the RD --> IORQ delay), so you need a tri-state output to drive IOCHRDY, and theres that niggling timing question with the DART's clock signal. Maybe it would work with the ISA clock, maybe not... I think you underestimate how tightly integrated the Z80 peripherals are with Z80 bus timing... > > > > > I never heard about pal's until about 1990. In some ways the peripheral > > > chips are in a really sorry shape. You have vintage slow I/O (2 MHZ?) > > > or PC motherboard chip sets. Nothing in between. On my FPGA I can run > > > with a 250 ns memory cycle, but need to stretch it to 625 ns for I/O. > > > The peripheral chips in every 1981-82 PC, PC-Clone, etc, that I've got in the > basement (they're all in one box) are 5 MHz parts without exception. These were > readily available to mfg's who purchased the quantity, but weren't available in > surplus for a while. > > > > PALs were certainly available earlier, just expensive, > > non-reprogramable, and power hungry. I think we used our first > > programmable logic in 1986 (Altera EP900s and EP320s - both low power) for > > emulation of some PC motherboard stuff in our low power V40 based embedded > > PCs. We never used PALs but have used GALs a lot for simple decoders and > > random logic. > > Bipolar logic was, indeed, power-hungry but that was the technology of the time. > EP???' were not bipolar, they were CMOS, and, in the case of the '80's perhaps > even NMOS. I'm not certain about that. GALs became avaiable in '84-85 and they > were expensive for only a short time, quickly grabbing market share when folks > realized that the 16V8 replaced the 16L8, 16R4, 16R6, 16R8, and several others. > Once the programming algorithms were available in the common programmers and > there was affordable software with which to use them, and I frequently used > conversion software from PAL fuse maps to GAL parts, having developed them from > PALASM intended for bipolar parts, I never bought another bipolar PAL. For > obvious reasons, it wasn't long before the GALs had replaced al the 16L/R parts. > > > At about $.50 now they are hard to beat. > > I think I would do most non-common (probably not Ethernet, USB or > > video) I/O these days with FPGAs. Its great to be able to change the > > function and pinout with just a downloadble config file. A 100K (Well > > maybe 15K if you remove Xilinx inflation factor) SpartanII chip is only > > $19.00... > > > There are several free HDL's in Verilog or VHDL for a fast ethernet interface > that will run entirely in a small Spartan or moderate 4000-series device costing > less than $25, but that's in quantity. Likewise, those can be implemented in > CPLD's for about the same cost. USB is better done in a dedicated (for the USB) > MCU, and at lower cost. Of course you have to license a Device ID. (or whatever > they call it) Unless you have a compelling need to integrate the MAC part of Ethernet into a FPGA, FPGA Ethernet is more expensive than an external Ethernet chip. Also, It is not possible to integrate the PHY into a FPGA at the moment (well maybe with some oddball mixed signal part) and when I can get a 100BT Ethernet chip with integrated PHY for less than $5.00, it would be silly to use a major portion of a $20 chip for a non standard Ethernet interface that doesn't even have any driver support... > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Dec 17 11:19:53 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <012501c186ad$1d07d000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > see below, plz. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 4:12 PM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > > ajp166 wrote: > > > > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. > > > Arg! And here I thought the 8008 was 70's technology. > > > > Well more into the 80s since the PAL was invented in 1978... > > > I've stumbled over a 1978 databook from MMI this weekend a couple of times, that > suggests the 16L/R/X/A series is new product in 1978, but there were quite a few > PALs that predate them. Signetics had a different sort of device than MMI, that > also goes back to the '70's. There were earlier programmable logic parts, but the PAL was invented in in 1978 by Birkner and Chua... > > > > > > > Actually thats not true. BY 1981 you have peripherals in the 125ns read > > > > write timing range. Then again Z80 at that time was just hinting at 6mhz > > > > so z80 peripherals were of an according spped for that cpu. However, > > > > other > > > > parts were faster and often far cheaper. > > > > > > If you must know it is a floppy disk controller I need. Right now > > > I plan to use WD2797 floppy disk controller. I would love to use > > > a newer chip,but I can't find any! I want to stay with DIP's and PLCC's > > > here. This may be the 21 century but my soldering skills are the 19'th. > > > > Actually Its possible to do QFPs pretty easy with just a good soldering > > iron and lots of flux... Even BGA's aren't too hard with a hot air gun > > (surface tension does the work) > > > > > > > > > Personally if I wanted the SIO functionality for a NON-z80 system I'd > > > > never use the zilog part. Reason it was not cheap,nor was it easy to > > > > use for non-z80 systems. They were designed for the Z80, period. > > > > Unfortunatly they were slow. If you wanted faster the 83xx or 85xx > > > > parts from Zilog were a far better choice but Zbus was scary to most > > > > people and they weren't cheap. The other part of this is NEC and > > > > Intel did the MPSC (NEC D7201, Intel 8274) which was functionally > > > > identical to the SIO and was "tuned" for 8080/8085/8088/8086 style > > > > busses and faster as well. It was a more generic part than the SIO. > > > > Also around that time Signetics and friends were doing the 2681 part > > > > that was cheap and available in various flavors. Peripherals back then > > > > were quite varied. > > > > > > I still favor the simple dumb uart chip. TR1602?. I like things than > > > you hit reset, it starts ... not like the classic star-trek computers > > > that always go down. Usually when you need them. > > > I always liked them, too, except for the space they required, including the > external clock generator(s). > > > -- > > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > > > > > > Can you still get TR1602's? I remember building something with them (maybe > > it was a 1402) and 3341 FIFO's in the 70's > > > I remember an ad not long ago that listed, among other things, the 1602. I've > not seen the 3341 for quite a long while, since there are CMOS versions. > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Dec 17 11:27:03 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <3C1D3526.2450095A@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > ajp166 wrote: > > > > A newer chip that can still be found is the WD37C65 > > that will do 125ns easily. Or you could easily find a d765 > > off an old board or NOS from JDR. > > The floppy disk chips have arrived in the post friday. I hope to get > a chance to pick them monday.I will keep the WD37C65 in mind but > "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.". I have added wait > states internally for I/O. > > > Allison > > > I've built enough to enjoy later parts as I'm old enough to want > > it done in a lifetime and the older parts meant tons more support > > parts and the requisite connections. Of the latter, the fewer the > > better for both buildability and reliability. > > Well I managed to stick my serial uart in the FPGA. One good feature > of 'dumb' hardware is that they can be used for bootstrapping the cpu. > (Mind you you still need a rather big prom to boot the FPGA but that > is another story) I guess you are not using Xilinx, but one thing I've noticed lately is the appearance of large, serial flash EEPROMs. We are using one on them in a new Xilinx design. The SST part is a 1 Mb chip (128KBytes) 8 pin SOP package = $1.35. So instead of Xilinx's $4.40 OTP chip we use a 8 pin PIC and the serial EEPROM for a total of $2.29 and get re-programmability... > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 07:53:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B65@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > No, I'm afraid you may have hit it on the head, and it's been the > direction I've been leaning, that the microcode ROMs may have > fried, but that just blows my mind. Tonight, I'll set up the > PC that's got my ROM burner/reader, and read each one (if the > ROMs aren't too large a size for my Needham unit). I'm assuming > I'll see all 00s or all FFs (or maybe something like FEs) if > they're blown; been a long time since I've looked at popped > ROMs... Ok, my microcode ROMs are fine, via direct observation (dumped them to disk then ran them through my LOW7 filter to strip the mark parity bit from the Prime ASCII. I also verified the ROMs are OK by managing to provoke the system to issue an error message that resides *only* in those ROMs. > About the only other possibility is that the backplane got > cooked, but it looks fine... There are still some possibilities other than this, the Primes appear to have been way-overengineered w/r/t making sure the power is OK. Thanks for all the suggestions, folks... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 07:55:11 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B66@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > PC that's got my ROM burner/reader, and read each one (if the > > ROMs aren't too large a size for my Needham unit). I'm assuming > > I'll see all 00s or all FFs (or maybe something like FEs) if > > they're blown; been a long time since I've looked at popped > > ROMs... > > What kind of ROMs does it use? Another possibility might be to find > someone with the same model of PR1ME (how rare are they?) and checksum > the ROMs & compare them...most PROM burners will generate checksums, > but now that I think of it, PROM burner manufacturers have yet to > standardize on a checksumming algorithm so it'd probably be useless > unless they're summed with the same make/model of burner. :-( My ROMs are fine; they read OK and I can provoke an error condition that results in a message to the console, and said message string resides in one and only one place- the microcode ROMs. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 07:57:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B67@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Possible, of course, but in the case of an Indy, the processor and PSU are > working, and it gets only as far as the "I think, therefore I am a > processor; I wonder if I have any memory" test in the PROM, and then > executes a loop which controls the LED in the PSU if there's no RAM. At > least, that's what I believe; I've not seen a detailed description of the > PROM startup. I suppose your problem may be something similar, in that the > CPU is running but can't do anyting useful because either it's crippled or > some other part of the system is disfuntional. Does the CPU control the > power supply LED(s), like it does in an Indy? Yeah, pretty sure it does... Interestingly, I remove dthe two 4MB boards last night- no difference in bahavior. However, there are message strings in the ROMs dealing with RAM problems... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 07:59:04 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B68@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Actually, I think that's a good suggestion, if you can find someone with > the same ROMs. In my experience, most programmers actually do use the same > algorithm -- one of the common CRCs. At least, all three programmers I > regularly use do, and the checksums match the ones printed on SGI ROMs and > a few other ROMs I have that have printed checksums. Well, they wouldn't compare exactly- the microcode ROM sets are serialized... But when I disconnecte the cabinet airflow sensor, I get an error message displayed that's not in the VCP's Z-80 boot ROM, but is only in the microcode ROMs. Now, whether the Z-80 is retrieving and displaying that message, or the microcode is getting loaded and the Prime CPU is issuing the message, who can tell? -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 17 12:20:50 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFCB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com [mailto:pete@dunnington.u-net.com] > The only thing I can think of that's *designed* to do > something like that > is an SGI Indy; if you power one up and it can't even run the > the code in > the PROM, it flashes the power light (which is a two-colour LED). The > usual cause id that there's no (recognisable) RAM at all in > it. Probably > not relevant to a PR1ME. I've recently seen an indy do that because the RTC was improperly seated. Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From curt at atari-history.com Mon Dec 17 08:02:13 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Strange Atari Cable References: <20011216070736.YOHW19480.femail31.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> <004c01c18636$dd3b6de0$ba701fd1@default> Message-ID: <017a01c18703$6f383210$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Yup, thats an all in one SIO to Centronics parallel cable, ICD was famous for great products. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "John R. Keys Jr." To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Strange Atari Cable > Yes it's gray and the package says the following: "Connects the Atari > 8-bit computer to Industry Standard Centronic's Parallel Printers. ICD's > State-of-The-Art Interface Electronics Built into Cable End (including a > custom, single chip microcomputer). Requires No separate power source." > Not a bad deal for $2.95, will have test it later. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 1:05 AM > Subject: Re: My Last Day Of Finds in MN > > > > I suspect that what you have in your bag is an ICD P:R:Connection > which is > > a two port serial, one port paralell interface. Is it square and grey > in > > color with an ICD P:R:Connection moniker printed thereon? Might by > itself > > be worth $50.00 to an Atari Enthusiast. > > > > Else it might just be a cable. If so, that same cable works with the > > Atari 850 interface for the same purpose. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jeff > > > > > > In <001e01c185d7$f6a5ac00$e9711fd1@default>, on 12/15/01 > > at 08:18 PM, "John R. Keys Jr." said: > > > > >I spent most of today checking out most of my favorite places and > found > > >few goodies to take back to Texas. A lot of it is too new to list > here > > >but at the low prices I could not pass the items up. I picked a April > > >1985 issue of COMPUTE! with pictures and a article on a Commodore > LCD > > >called a second-generation lap portable with 80 x 16 flip-up display, > 32K > > >RAM, internal modem, and eight built-in programs for under $600. Has > > >anyone every seen one in real life or better yet does anyone own one? > It > > >looks pretty cool in the photo shown in the mag. Some of the other > items > > >are listed below. > > > > >1. ICD printer connector cable for Atari 850 new in unopened package > 2. > > >Tandy cat#26-1398 6' RS232C cable new unopened package > > >3. Commodore Model 1351 mouse > > >4. Several Sega Master System cartridges > > >5. Compute! March 1985 issue some good stuff in it also. > > >6. Several mousepads for the collection > > >7. A RAD robot > > >8. A nice book called Understanding Computers by Grace Murray Hopper > 9. > > >Some Apple and Toshiba technical manuals > > >10. Tele-games Video Arcade (Sears) with 2- controllers and 2- > paddles, > > >also came with 3 cartridges > > >11. A NeXT keyboard (pn 2122) and mouse (pn 193), the mouse was a > style I > > >had not seen before. > > >Well that's all I can list as the others are not classic yet. Keep > > >Computing > > > > > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jeffrey S. Worley > > Asheville, NC USA > > 828-6984887 > > UberTechnoid@Home.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 08:15:15 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Is there no end Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B6B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Matter of fact AMD was subcontracted at one point to MAKE processors for > Intel, when demands were up and they couldn't meet market requirements - and > many of the AMD made Intel branded chips are better than many of the Intel > ones. I don't remember if it was the 386 era or 486 though. iAPX286 era... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 08:16:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Is there no end Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B6C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > > > > > > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > > > > > Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? >:-) > > > (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) > > > > ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now > > zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > as PPC. I thought Hercules could run S/390.... ;) -dq From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 17 14:20:31 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B6C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > > Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P > > > > > > > > > > Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. > > > > > > > > Now, honestly: by the same token, what's a PPC that doesn't run MacOS? > >:-) > > > > (As I type on my Apple Network Server. ;-) > > > > > > ... a computer I would want, such as an IBM RS/6000, AS/400, or S/390 (now > > > zSeries). Mmmmm S/390 :). Now, that's BIG iron. > > > > S/390 does NOT run on microprocessors of any kind, let alone one as slow > > as PPC. > > I thought Hercules could run S/390.... > > ;) Hercules runs OS/390, not S/390. Hitachi Skyline's also run OS/390. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 17 14:11:05 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Is there no end In-Reply-To: <3C1CEFC1.2FAA4000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > I don't *only* have 390's, you know... > No I did not. Got a web page? Not yet. I am in the process of writing it. I have three S/390's, an ES/9000, a Burroughs G20M, and I will soon have a 7090. Peace... Sridhar From allain at panix.com Mon Dec 17 15:03:18 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Is there no end References: Message-ID: <022201c1873e$415cafc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Not yet. I am in the process of writing it. I have three S/390's, > an ES/9000, a Burroughs G20M, and I will soon have a 7090. Maybe you should pump out some of your "greatest collector's tips" for the benefit for the rest of us. John A. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 08:28:39 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: How did they string core? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B6D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > It was done by hand I think. Mexico comes to mind. > > Some manfacturers did it by hand, some by machine. IBM had core stringing > machines during the S/360 era, for the huge stacks (about 1' by 4') used > in some of the storage units. They also had cores hand strung in the far > East, as the cheap labor was more economical than the robots. The far east manufacture of core lead to a long-running joke in the old mainframe days... the instance of it I will describe was only one of many... Anyway, when we'd boot the COPE (Harris) 1200 Remote Job Entry Station (a PDP-8 clone), there would be a message that would flash by on the console *very quickly*: HELP! HELP! I'm being held hostage in a Hong Kong Core House! Read this thinking "Mike Hunt" and "Amanda Huggenkiss" if you don't (by some chance) get it... -dq From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Mon Dec 17 09:27:36 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: How did they string core? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B6D@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217102211.00b00b80@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 09:28 AM 12/17/01 -0500, you wrote: >Some manfacturers did it by hand, some by machine. IBM had core stringing > > machines during the S/360 era, for the huge stacks (about 1' by 4') used > > in some of the storage units. They also had cores hand strung in the far > > East, as the cheap labor was more economical than the robots. I was an industrial engineer assigned to the Core Line in Poughkeepsie for IBM. As the cores got small and smaller the operation became harder and harder. We used a large screen like device with slots in it. The cores were dropped onto the screen which was shaken so that the cores would fall into the proper holes. Then a button was pushed and the N/S and then the E/W wires pulled through the centers of the cores. The last part of the operation was the diagonal (bias) wires which were threaded though by hand. Very few individuals were capable of this last part of the operation. Almost all of the operators were women. Men just couldn't do the fine point work. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale I accept PayPal To subscribe to automatic updates send a blank e-mail to: online-garage-sale-subscribe@yahoogroups.com From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Dec 17 08:54:32 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question Message-ID: Last time I had horse meat was with a couple of my professors at the Faculty Club ar Harvard. It was a regular on the menu there. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:51 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question Where on your scale do you put horse meat? The French love it. - don From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Dec 17 09:27:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B6F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > FYI, I think it's a "made up" holiday and just wanted to know > what your thoughts were. The difference between "real" holidays and "made up" Holidays seems to be: if the Holiday was "made up" before you were born, then it's real (like Mother's Day, which was instituted by President Woodrow Wilson); if it was made up in your lifetime, then it's "not real, just made up." January 1 was "made up" into New Years Day by an act of fiat; New Years Day used to be April 1. I believe "Father's Day" was "made up" in the 50s... "President's Day" was "made up" by tightwad businessmen who wanted to combine two Holidays into one. "Washington's Birthday" was made-up into a Holiday by people who wanted to make a big deal out of Washington's Birthday; ditto Lincoln. I hope the pattern is clear... Kwanzaa is as valid a Holiday as any. Regards, -dq From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 17 12:09:18 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) In-Reply-To: <14f.5df27e7.294ebe22@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Dec 16, 2001 10:18:58 pm" Message-ID: <200112171809.KAA22102@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > >> Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. > > >Okay, I'll bite: why isn't it? > figure it out yourself, google is around for a reason Not that I celebrate it, but it's as real as any holiday. It's an invented reason for a party on a fairly arbitrary day or set of days. Eric From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 17 13:22:24 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:14 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFCC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Goodwin [mailto:acme_ent@bellsouth.net] > FYI, I think it's a "made up" holiday and just wanted to know > what your > thoughts were. Well, to drive this further off topic.... ;) All holidays are "made up." They are celebrations of this thing or that, lots of times an event. Nobody'd have thought of having a holiday before the thing happened, right? The difference with kwanzaa is that it's silly/stupid because it's (AFAIK) a celebration of racial identity which stems (IMO) from an insecurity of some type, where lots of other holidays are silly/stupid because they're celebrations of national identity (for instance) which stem (IMO) from an insecurity of some type :P Regards, Chris (who never understood the tendency of people to want to assign themselves to groups) Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Dec 17 10:21:59 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Databooks Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E8@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Pete - I'm forwarding this to ClassicCmp.org mail list for you. Someone there might want them... From: CaptnZilog@aol.com [mailto:CaptnZilog@aol.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:52 PM To: port-i386@netbsd.org Subject: OT: Databooks Way off topic here, but I figure that this list is probably looked at by most of the people out there. I have two xerox-paper boxes of duplicate Electronics Databooks I've weeded out of my three 7' high bookcases of databooks. Anybody out there in the vicinity of CT (probably not worth shipping them, its a lot of weight) interested in any databooks (to add to your collection?)? I can provide a list if you want. Some TI DSP databooks, and miscellaneous other stuff... Pete --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Dec 17 10:31:01 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Another odd-ball/almost classic computer...8 yr old... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673E9@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Michael --- Just curious, what would you do with it, use it for? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Michael Nadeau [mailto:menadeau@mediaone.net] ! Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 7:51 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: Another odd-ball/almost classic computer...8 yr old... ! ! ! I remember getting a press briefing on the Handbook before ! its release. ! Gateway did not manufacture the unit. I think it was made ! under contract in ! Taiwan. It was an interesting system that was not on the ! market for long. ! I'd grab one if the opportunity presented itself. ! ! --Mike ! ! Michael Nadeau ! Editorial Services ! 603-893-2379 ! ----- Original Message ----- ! From: "David Woyciesjes" ! To: ! Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 5:10 PM ! Subject: Another odd-ball/almost classic computer...8 yr old... ! ! ! > Just found this in a box... Has anyone here ever heard of a Gateway ! > 2000 Handbook computer? It's like a palmtop/laptop computer, ! 10"x6"x1.5"... ! > using a Chips & Tech. 8680 "PC on a chip". It has the 2MB ! RAM upgrade, to ! > bring it to a whopping 3MB! ! > And would you look at that, 40MB HDD... With the null modem cable, ! > it would make a great ultra-portable terminal... ! > ! > --- David A Woyciesjes ! > --- C & IS Support Specialist ! > --- Yale University Press ! > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! > --- (203) 432-0953 ! > --- ICQ # - 905818 ! > ! From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 17 10:36:38 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Old Wrapped inCider.... Message-ID: <3C1E1F16.8080300@cnonline.net> drats!!!! I was handling it so carfully I did not notice the bottom of the plastic bag had been carefully opened. :^( I guess it's no big deal now. Are any of these magazine of interest to someone who has not a full set? When I finish reading them they are yours for a "sase". nibble august 1987 v8n8 inCider december 1987 inCider april 1989 If you want them let me know. Multiple requests will be decided based on order in my mail browser, topmost takes all. ;^) From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Dec 17 10:37:23 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Free MC68020 User's Manual Message-ID: I have a copy of the Motorola "MC68020 32-Bit Microprocessor User's Manual" (Second Edition, 1985) that was going to be tossed at work. Anyone want it? It's free for shipping costs (under 2 pounds) or pickup in Chicago Loop. Email me at robert_feldman@jdedwards.com if you are interested. Random drawing if more than one request by Wednesday AM. Bob From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 17 11:24:27 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") In-Reply-To: from "CLeyson@aol.com" at "Dec 15, 2001 12:55:55 pm" Message-ID: <200112171724.JAA21043@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> At least it's mutipart/alternative, so those of us with email clients that support MIME only see the text/plain version. Eric > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > "Should HTML/inline files be banded from EMAIL?" I ask. > > As of late I have turned inline viewing off, with all the > > stupid viruses around. > > Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( > > Chris > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 17 12:16:46 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks") Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFCA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> -----Original Message----- From: CLeyson@aol.com [mailto:CLeyson@aol.com] > I sometimes wonder just how many customers we've lost because of this. > Also, dont get me wrong, the same should be applied to hardware design. > We recently interviewed an electronics engineering graduate who didn't know > the difference between NPN and PNP transistors !! What do they teach kids > these days ?? My guess is nothing. (Really... that's part of the reason I'm not in a hurry to get my degree) It's not that the couldn't teach anything, or that the "kids" couldn't learn if they tried, though, I think. It's more that they're too stupid to know that there's more to learning than showing up every day and reciting meaningless (to you) data. The really sad part is that schools are accommodating this attitude by adjusting their programs such that you really needn't (in fact, it becomes difficult to...) learn anything. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 17 11:25:20 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFC7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: no [mailto:oliv555@arrl.net] > digital Alphabook. Not exactly Rare, just hard-to-find Last I checked you could get them refurbished from Tadpole/RDI. Depending on availability, of course, but they get them occasionally. They still cost several thousand dollars, IIRC. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 16 23:51:35 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <3C1D87E7.5E1A84E6@jetnet.ab.ca> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > ajp166 wrote: > A newer chip that can still be found is the WD37C65 > that will do 125ns easily. Or you could easily find a d765 > off an old board or NOS from JDR. Do you know of a WD37C65 data sheet on the web? > Allison > I've built enough to enjoy later parts as I'm old enough to want > it done in a lifetime and the older parts meant tons more support > parts and the requisite connections. Of the latter, the fewer the > better for both buildability and reliability. Hmm what ever happened to sockets and repairable stuff. > I guess you are not using Xilinx, but one thing I've noticed lately is the > appearance of large, serial flash EEPROMs. We are using one on them in a > new Xilinx design. The SST part is a 1 Mb chip (128KBytes) 8 pin SOP > package = $1.35. So instead of Xilinx's $4.40 OTP chip we use a 8 pin PIC > and the serial EEPROM for a total of $2.29 and get re-programmability... A good solution but this is a one-shot project so price is not a major problem here. One possible option is going to quick-logic's FPGA's and the web design setup. I think you can get a free FPGA programed under that system for R&D. At the time I got my FPGA kit they did not have a Xilinx fpga kit the size I needed ( 800? Logic blocks ) or free Xilinx software. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Dec 17 13:45:48 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: DEC Cable? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673F0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I've got two cables here, DEC p/n BCC17-06 and one with out a p/n, but looks like a DEC cable. Any ideas who/what they're for? And can one of them replace the mono video cable on my VAX Station 3100 (BC23K-03)? DEC p/n BCC17-06: 15 pin D-sub connector <--> a box with a DEC keyboard connector (the phone plug looking thing), and/then 3 BNC (r,g,b) Un-marked: 15 pin D-sub connector <--> box with PS-2 keyboard and mouse connectors, then 3 BNC connectors (r,g,b) - this was included in the shopping bag that came with my DEC 3000-400, but this doesn't go with it. The PMAGB-B video adaptor in slot 0 has the 3W3 (?) video connector... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From michael at unixiron.org Mon Dec 17 13:51:49 2001 From: michael at unixiron.org (Michael Kukat) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: DEC Cable? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673F0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: Hello, On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > I've got two cables here, DEC p/n BCC17-06 and one with out a p/n, > but looks like a DEC cable. Any ideas who/what they're for? And can one of > them replace the mono video cable on my VAX Station 3100 (BC23K-03)? I don't know these cables, but as both are RGB cables, none of them can replace a mono cable. Also look at http://www.bsdfans.org/pinouts.php for the full pinout of those connectors. And additionally, DEC changed the pinout somewhen for the DECstations and DEC (Alpha) machines, maybe even VAXstation 4000 has a different pinout (do they have the 15pin connector? Don't know now). Best way would be to take a soldering iron and make the cable yourself. The other way would be a small bridge between the mono and the green pin to get the cable doing mono on the green wire. But this is a modification to your holy VAXstation, and you don't really want to do this :) And then, there is still the problem with the pinout difference between DECstations and VAXstaions. So, as your VAXstation has own keyboard/mouse connectors, a simple mono video cable would be the best. ...Michael -- visit http://www.bsdfans.org/ Home network powered by: NetBSD OpenBSD FreeBSD Solaris HP-UX IRIX AIX MUNIX Tru64 Ultrix VMS SINIX Dolphin_Unix OpenStep MacOS From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Dec 17 14:09:15 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: DEC Cable? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673F2@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I do have a BNC male-male adapter, and some BNC cable. That should suffice as an extension. Safer than a soldering iron... ;-) Thanks for the link... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Michael Kukat [mailto:michael@unixiron.org] ! Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 2:52 PM ! To: David Woyciesjes ! Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail); NetBSD/Vax Mail List (E-mail) ! Subject: Re: DEC Cable? ! ! ! Hello, ! ! On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: ! > I've got two cables here, DEC p/n BCC17-06 and one with ! out a p/n, ! > but looks like a DEC cable. Any ideas who/what they're for? ! And can one of ! > them replace the mono video cable on my VAX Station 3100 (BC23K-03)? ! ! I don't know these cables, but as both are RGB cables, none ! of them can replace ! a mono cable. Also look at http://www.bsdfans.org/pinouts.php ! for the full ! pinout of those connectors. ! ! And additionally, DEC changed the pinout somewhen for the ! DECstations and DEC ! (Alpha) machines, maybe even VAXstation 4000 has a different ! pinout (do they ! have the 15pin connector? Don't know now). ! ! Best way would be to take a soldering iron and make the cable ! yourself. The ! other way would be a small bridge between the mono and the ! green pin to get ! the cable doing mono on the green wire. But this is a ! modification to your ! holy VAXstation, and you don't really want to do this :) ! ! And then, there is still the problem with the pinout ! difference between ! DECstations and VAXstaions. So, as your VAXstation has own ! keyboard/mouse ! connectors, a simple mono video cable would be the best. ! ! ...Michael ! ! -- ! visit http://www.bsdfans.org/ Home network powered by: ! NetBSD OpenBSD FreeBSD ! Solaris HP-UX IRIX AIX MUNIX Tru64 Ultrix VMS SINIX ! Dolphin_Unix OpenStep MacOS ! From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 13:50:21 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say no t o squirrels & Pascal question) In-Reply-To: <200112150606.WAA09604@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Let's see. I have 14 total, seven boxed and seven loose, plus the Data > Recorder which I had to repair over the weekend, joystick and joypads. > Paddles? I didn't know there were paddles available; are they actually > real potentiometer paddles, or do you mean the twin joypad set? And > what's the doohickey? I meant joypads I guess. And I have the data recorder as well. I think I have an additional doohickey unit though (or I may be thinking of the data recorder). I don't know what it is I'm thinking of, just that I have it :) > The agonisingly "common" domestic cartridge I'm still missing is > Torpedo Terror. There's a few other domestic cartridges I haven't > found yet, but those are much more uncommon. I'll catalog what I have and report back. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 17 13:56:57 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <15390.19977.504161.88301@phaduka.neurotica.com> Hey folks, would anyone here be able to get me disk images for OS/2 release 3 or 4? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Dec 17 14:31:21 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <15390.19977.504161.88301@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200112172031.OAA01258@caesar.cs.umn.edu> OS/2 2.00.1 isnt any help I assume? -Lawrence LeMay > > Hey folks, would anyone here be able to get me disk images for OS/2 > release 3 or 4? > > Thanks, > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 17 14:44:02 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Re: OS/2 (Lawrence LeMay) References: <15390.19977.504161.88301@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200112172031.OAA01258@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <15390.22802.294496.891707@phaduka.neurotica.com> Nope, needs to be 3 or 4...thanks anyway though. I think I may have found it. -Dave On December 17, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > OS/2 2.00.1 isnt any help I assume? > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > > > Hey folks, would anyone here be able to get me disk images for OS/2 > > release 3 or 4? > > > > Thanks, > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire > > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf > > > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From pjschilling at gcstech.net Mon Dec 17 14:48:03 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, Probably both, which would you prefer? Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:57 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: OS/2 Hey folks, would anyone here be able to get me disk images for OS/2 release 3 or 4? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 17 14:54:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: RE: OS/2 (Phil Schilling) References: Message-ID: <15390.23432.873858.452765@phaduka.neurotica.com> I've got a line on 'em already...that didn't take long. Thanks anyway though. -Dave On December 17, Phil Schilling wrote: > Dave, > Probably both, which would you prefer? > > Phil > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:57 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: OS/2 > > > > Hey folks, would anyone here be able to get me disk images for OS/2 > release 3 or 4? > > Thanks, > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf > > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Dec 17 15:01:26 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: > Hey folks, would anyone here be able to get me disk images for OS/2 >release 3 or 4? I thought I had OS/2 Warp v3, but it turns out there are no disks in the box, just a manual. You can have that if you want it (cost of shipping, unless you have some 32mb 72pin SIMMs kicking around you want to trade... LOL) -c From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 17 15:13:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <15390.19977.504161.88301@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <15390.19977.504161.88301@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Hey folks, would anyone here be able to get me disk images for OS/2 >release 3 or 4? Dave, OS/2 Warp 3 (red box, Windows support requires existing Windows installation) is 27 disks for OS/2 plus an additional 14 disks for the Bonus Pack. OS/2 Warp Connect version 3 (Blue box, includes DOS/Windows support) is on CD-ROM, as is the Bonus Pack. It does have two diskettes from which to boot the system for installation though. Is there a specific disk(s) that you need to replace for Warp 3? I also have OS/2 for Windows version 2.1. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 17 15:47:08 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Re: OS/2 (Jeff Hellige) References: <15390.19977.504161.88301@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15390.26588.633905.837060@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 17, Jeff Hellige wrote: > OS/2 Warp 3 (red box, Windows support requires existing > Windows installation) is 27 disks for OS/2 plus an additional 14 > disks for the Bonus Pack. OS/2 Warp Connect version 3 (Blue box, > includes DOS/Windows support) is on CD-ROM, as is the Bonus Pack. It > does have two diskettes from which to boot the system for > installation though. Is there a specific disk(s) that you need to > replace for Warp 3? I also have OS/2 for Windows version 2.1. Yup...this is to support a P/390 card, so it's somewhat version-dependant. It's for a new install. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 14:09:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Need manual for Everex digital cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > OK, it could be a re-badged Tandy joystick housing and mechanical works > > with slightly different pots and wiring. > > Or more likely the Tandy and IBM joysticks were made by the same company > (I doubt that either IBM or Tandy made their own joysticks, after all). > Which, IIRC, was suggested several messages back. I believe they are Kraft joysticks. I'll have to find one of each and take pictures, and also open them up and document the components, just so you two can go back to sleeping soundly at night ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 15:24:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: <003601c18691$ed237b70$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Dec 17 15:26:54 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Shall I open it, or does someone want it.... In-Reply-To: <3C1D4739.3060106@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ron Hudson wrote: > I have December 1967 inCider, still wrapped in it's plastic bag. I > wonder if anyone is collecting magazines and would find this more > collectable because it still has the plastic. I would find the December 1967 inCider to be highly collectable since it was published tens year before the Apple ][ was made. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 17 15:59:30 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Warp Connect V3 (was Re: OS/2) In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Dec 17, 2001 04:13:12 PM Message-ID: <200112172159.fBHLxUo28300@shell1.aracnet.com> > disks for the Bonus Pack. OS/2 Warp Connect version 3 (Blue box, > includes DOS/Windows support) is on CD-ROM, as is the Bonus Pack. It > does have two diskettes from which to boot the system for > installation though. Is there a specific disk(s) that you need to > replace for Warp 3? I also have OS/2 for Windows version 2.1. Are the updates still available for this anywhere? For some reason, I'm in the process of building a PP200 up as an OS/2 system and Warp 3 is the newest version I've got. (OK, ok, I admit, I'm building it to play "Galactic Civilizations".) Anyway, I'd kind of like to get it updated to the current patch level or whatever it's called in OS/2 (been way to long since I switched to the Mac from OS/2). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 17 16:04:10 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 17, 2001 04:47:08 PM Message-ID: <200112172204.fBHM4Bj28610@shell1.aracnet.com> > Yup...this is to support a P/390 card, so it's somewhat > version-dependant. It's for a new install. Dang! Lucky bum! I'm green with envy! Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 17 16:15:35 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Re: OS/2 (Zane H. Healy) References: <200112172204.fBHM4Bj28610@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <15390.28295.734094.592296@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 17, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Yup...this is to support a P/390 card, so it's somewhat > > version-dependant. It's for a new install. > > Dang! Lucky bum! I'm green with envy! ;-) -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 17 16:19:30 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <200112172219.fBHMJUQ24524@narnia.int.dittman.net> Today I found the following: 1) IBM PS/2 P70 Portable with Xenix386 loaded. Does anyone know how to bypass the root password so I can log in? 2) A DEC BC56H SCSI cable. I have enough, but since this is a little hard to find, I bought it to pass on to anyone on the list that needs it. 3) An Apple board with part number 077-0219-A. This has two 9-pin connectors, one labeled "TO MOUSE UNIT" and the other labeled "TO MOUSE CONN.". There's a 25-pin connector labeled "TO SCSI CONN.". The date on the board is 1985. Since the board only cost $1, I figured I'd better grab it before it was tossed. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 17 16:34:09 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I should add to the list of hard to find stuff early Intergraph workstations. Clipper based, and pre-clipper (were they VAX?) Intergraph systems. I also haven't looked -- but have never seen any DG Nova stuff around. It may be relatively rare. On another note, CDC hardware that wasn't OEM'd from SGI seems relatively uncommon. There's one CDC workstation that was a re-badged Indigo, that's relatively common. It's the only CDC system I've seen for sale. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 17 16:37:31 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steven_j_robertson@hotmail.com] > 3.) The explosion of the Internet has brought a lot of people > into the > software development arena that should be in other > professions. In recent > years, anyone that knew a language's syntax could get a job > as a developer. > "Knowing the syntax does not a developer make". Hmmm... That > could be my new > sig file :-) I agree completely, but since you raise such a good point, what would you say _does_ make one a "developer?" Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Dec 16 20:02:32 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > Which division of UT is this? I have no idea. I heard this from some folks on the prep side at IBM, and they didn't know. I suspect it's either the accounting/bookkeeping deprtment, or Engineering. > > > If somebody with contacts there made the right moves at the right > > time, the Crays could probably be had. Maybe for next to nothing. > > UT can't legally sell any old/surplus equipment via a private sale. I've > talked to people about this in the past. There are laws that force all > agencies that get funding from the state of Texas to sell old/surplus > stuff via an auction only. Prior to 9/1/99, all old/surplus computer stuff > was sold to dealers and the public via an auction. True. But anything bigger than a full-tower PC is VERY likely to get designated, and sold as, scrap. > > UT sends a HUGE volume of hardware to the Texas Department of > > Corrections, who sorts out the PC & Mac hardware & refines the rest. > > Since 9/1/99, UT sends anything that fits the definition "Data Processing > Equipment" to TDC. Most divisions of UT I'm familiar with include old > Sun/VAX/Mainframe gear in the lots they send to TDC. I was the LAN Op at Building 5, PRC from mid-98 thru late last year. That's literally next door to the cantral surplus barn. I was friends with the guy who is now the director, who was the shop foreman then. I can tell you first-hand that the Surplus department has a lot more control over classification than the releasing department. Because of the TDC regs, UT will generally do backflips to avoid outright retiring large IT equipment. There is some leeway as to what is designated DCE. If the unit is suffciently outdated and slow (OK, by THEIR standards), it's likely to be sold as scrap at auction. They can also donate equipment to approved entities. The angle I'd work would be that, to donate the stuff to a museum. The "approval process" is a little murky. Based on what I've > heard from various warehouse personnel, they generally tend to interpret > 'Data Processing Equipment' to mean the monitor and cpu/computer. They > don't send TDC any keyboards, mice, or cables. I always wondered what TDC > can actually do with this many (10s of 1000s+) incomplete/gutted > computers? Landfill. The absence of peripherals is mostly due to the fact that a wide range of state-supported agencies, including ISD's and other UT departments, can claim any surplus before it gets shipped to TDC. The number of viable computers that make it through that gauntlet is more in the range of a few hundred a year, and working keyboards, mice & monitors are premium fodder. > UT is required to remove all data from the machines they send TDC. Most > warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with > fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that > profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them. Uh-huh. I grabbed a PowerMac for our Imaging & Photo guy once that had been in the UT clinic. There were psych profiles, legal petitions filed because students had sought counselling for home situations that involved harm to minors, case records, including names & addresses, you name it. > Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some > warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an industrial > chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting brackets from the > drives before scrapping them. I saw a lot of drives with lead solder dripped into the cable connectors. I saw a lot more that were simply left in the machines, especially the old workstations/servers. I don't think the people responsible could really believe that anyone might want to power up a unit that didn't say "Pentium". > What I would really like to know is how TDC is supposed to reuse/resell > these machines with no keyboards, no mice, and no hds/mounting brackets? A whole lot of people, including the ones getting that crap, want to know the same thing. What kills me is that they would tenderly palletize, wrap, and ship P90s worth ~$25, and use the forklifts to handle the 7013 RS/6000s, the old TI mainframes, and stuff. Microsoftian evaluation all the way. Doc From jss at subatomix.com Mon Dec 17 01:12:25 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011217010351.Q86991-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > I was the LAN Op at Building 5, PRC from mid-98 thru late last year. > That's literally next door to the cantral surplus barn. I was friends > with the guy who is now the director, who was the shop foreman then. I > can tell you first-hand that the Surplus department has a lot more > control over classification than the releasing department. They must have more control. As I said on another thread, they auctioned a huge load of very much on-topic stuff to me from that very barn. > There is some leeway as to what is designated DCE. If the unit is > suffciently outdated and slow (OK, by THEIR standards), it's likely to > be sold as scrap at auction. The auctions seem to be held by Swico Auctions (www.swicoauctions.com), and there's one coming up on January 23. I'm waiting for them to post a list of items. I don't have the money to make a haul this time, but I'm still eager to see what will be there. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 17 17:52:34 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > UT can't legally sell any old/surplus equipment via a private sale. I've > > talked to people about this in the past. There are laws that force all > > agencies that get funding from the state of Texas to sell old/surplus > > stuff via an auction only. Prior to 9/1/99, all old/surplus computer stuff > > was sold to dealers and the public via an auction. > > True. But anything bigger than a full-tower PC is VERY likely to get > designated, and sold as, scrap. I guess it depends on which location/warehouse stuff is located at. UT M.D. Anderson Cancer Center seems to auction off some of their older non-pc stuff. UT Houston Health Science Center sends *everything* that remotely resembles a computer to TDC. UT Medical Branch at Galveston also seems to take no chances with SB1105 and sends nearly everything to TDC. I haven't been to many UT Austin auctions, so I don't know what the normal practice is there. I've never been to any of the UT San Antonio auctions, but it sounds like they do a better job of sorting than most of the other locations. Each location is run more or less independently from the others, so this isn't surprising. > > Since 9/1/99, UT sends anything that fits the definition "Data Processing > > Equipment" to TDC. Most divisions of UT I'm familiar with include old > > Sun/VAX/Mainframe gear in the lots they send to TDC. > Because of the TDC regs, UT will generally do backflips to avoid > outright retiring large IT equipment. Likely also due to SB1105 explicitly stating TDC will not pay anything for the equipment that is transfered to them. Prior to SB1105, state agencies could at least get some money to cover the costs of storage and handling of old equipment before it was auctioned. > There is some leeway as to what is designated DCE. If the unit is > suffciently outdated and slow (OK, by THEIR standards), it's likely to > be sold as scrap at auction. I've saw a few IBM rackmount systems that were sold as "scrap" at the last M.D. Anderson auction. I wish I'd met someone from the list there, as they had some interesting stuff that someone here would probably have liked to acquire. I generally have to pass on the larger items (rackmount), due to a current lack of space and no means to transport. > They can also donate equipment to approved entities. The angle I'd work > would be that, to donate the stuff to a museum. The "approval process" > is a little murky. Approved entities according to SB1105 seems to only include state agencies. There may be another law that gets around this, but I'm not aware of it. I have no idea what kind of procedures would be involved in getting old equipment "donated". > > Based on what I've heard from various warehouse personnel, they > > generally tend to interpret 'Data Processing Equipment' to mean the > > monitor and cpu/computer. They don't send TDC any keyboards, mice, or > > cables. I always wondered what TDC can actually do with this many (10s > > of 1000s+) incomplete/gutted computers? > The absence of peripherals is mostly due to the fact that a wide range > of state-supported agencies, including ISD's and other UT departments, > can claim any surplus before it gets shipped to TDC. The number of > viable computers that make it through that gauntlet is more in the range > of a few hundred a year, and working keyboards, mice & monitors are > premium fodder. The locations I mentioned above always have at least 2-3 pallets of keyboards, 1 pallet of mice, and 4 or more pallets of cables in their auctions. Any of those lots (they group the pallets) generally go for about $5-$35. > > UT is required to remove all data from the machines they send TDC. Most > > warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with > > fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that > > profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them. > > Uh-huh. I grabbed a PowerMac for our Imaging & Photo guy once that had > been in the UT clinic. There were psych profiles, legal petitions filed > because students had sought counselling for home situations that > involved harm to minors, case records, including names & addresses, you > name it. They don't seem to worry about internal people getting data, but before something is sold or transferred to an outside agency, they almost always wipe or remove the drives. I've found much worse kinds of data on machines I've picked up from thrift stores. One particular 386 EISA box I bought came right to life after a little maintenance, and had a company's entire payroll and corporate information on it. Some old IBM gear I ended up with had old data on them from some oil company. I forget which company it was, as I didn't archive the data. > > Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some > > warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an > > industrial chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting > > brackets from the drives before scrapping them. > > I saw a lot of drives with lead solder dripped into the cable > connectors. I saw a lot more that were simply left in the machines, > especially the old workstations/servers. I don't think the people > responsible could really believe that anyone might want to power up a > unit that didn't say "Pentium". Well, I envy you. They don't let the drives go that easily down here. > > What I would really like to know is how TDC is supposed to reuse/resell > > these machines with no keyboards, no mice, and no hds/mounting brackets? > > A whole lot of people, including the ones getting that crap, want to > know the same thing. What kills me is that they would tenderly > palletize, wrap, and ship P90s worth ~$25, and use the forklifts to > handle the 7013 RS/6000s, the old TI mainframes, and stuff. Microsoftian > evaluation all the way. As I mentioned above, the keyboard/mice/cables are all being auctioned off. Maybe that is UT's way of "getting back" at TDC? If there is ever any interest in getting the keyboards/mice/cables at auctions down here, I'd be willing to store/handle a fair amount of the stuff. After walking thru the M.D. Anderson warehouses, it just made me sick seeing 1000s of perfectly good machines piled up on pallets soon to be scrapped and or sent off to TDC. -Toth From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Dec 16 22:19:20 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > UT is required to remove all data from the machines they send TDC. Most > warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with > fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that > profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them. > Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some > warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an industrial > chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting brackets from the > drives before scrapping them. I forgot to add that if you read the law carefully, the OS and installed programs are specifically exempt from removal. Which is, in the case of PCs especially, insane. Most Windows users have no idea where they're storing data, and very few departmental "computer guys" are patient enough to thoroughly check a PC for data files, email, bookmark files, or whatever. IMNSHO that's Windows' single biggest sin - you can put any file you want anywhere you want to. Or delete same. Back on track, though, that provision leaves the doors open for a very wide range of interpretation. Doc From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Mon Dec 17 16:34:16 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: P5020 keyboard Message-ID: <016301c18751$79507020$b1a1f1c3@cx> I recently found a Philips P5020 without a keyboard. Is there anybody with a spare keyboard he could part from? Or alternatively is there any way I could adapt an existing keyboard to the P5020? I live in Arnhem, The Netherlands Thank in advance Wim From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Dec 17 16:52:16 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: Christopher Smith wrote: > I also haven't looked -- but have never seen any DG Nova stuff around. It > may be relatively rare. Nova 2 and 3 stuff shows up fairly often, as does the occasional 32-bit Eclipse. I'd love to get my hands on an S/280 or even a S/130 but haven't managed to as of yet. An original Nova (two CPU cards, 4K core boards) would be an incredible find, as would a Supernova SC. I've never actually _seen_ an M/600, much less seen one up for grabs. According to Terry Dowling this 16-bit machine actually had enough hardware hooks to do demand paging but nobody ever got around to implementing it in AOS. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From red at bears.org Mon Dec 17 17:37:45 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Chris Kennedy wrote: > haven't managed to as of yet. An original Nova (two CPU cards, 4K > core boards) would be an incredible find, as would a Supernova SC. Gee whiz, I've had an original Nova (two CPU boards, a 4KW core board) for a few years. I never realized it was an 'incredible find'. I haven't spent much time trying to get it restored, because for the first year or so the task overwhelmed me (the more choices I have, the more paralyzed I become). Lately, it's seemed less daunting (I understand more of its theory of operation) but I haven't had the time to sit down to look at it. ok r. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 17 17:07:39 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: <10112172206.ZM24733@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 17, 9:30, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Domestic ones I've seen won't. Apart from the soaking -- that's the point > of using it, obviously. Very few things are intolerant: some relays, > transformers, a few types of switches, etc, usually just because they take > too long to dry out. And core mats, of course, because they're very > fragile and extremely hard to repair. Don't forget old transformers, which often use something looking very much like paper for isolation. > > Grab a bottle of isopropanol, some swabs, and start working. > > Doesn't work well on smoke-damaged boards, Coke, etc, and water is far > cheaper and safer (for the user, too). It works, but it requires more work. > > ESD should never be ignored, but in the case of computer from the 60s and > > 70s, ESD is really not an issue. We don't have CMOS, we have old style > MSI > > TTL here... It is not ESD sensitive. > > I think you'll find most experts disagree with you there :-) TTL may be > much less sensitive than old CMOS and even modern CMOS and TTL > replacements, but it is still sensitive and can be damaged by ESD. It's > not so likely to be damaged when soldered into a complete circuit, but it's > possible. I've had at least two QBus boards damaged by ESD through > careless handling. Eh? Q-bus cards, even the oldest you can find, are LSI stuff. You won't find much of anything even *that* modern in a PDP-8. Actually, much Q-bus stuff is really modern compared to what I'm thinking of... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Mon Dec 17 17:08:53 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: Message-ID: <016401c18751$7a19daa0$b1a1f1c3@cx> The book by Brooks {The Mythical Man Month)should be mandatory reading for every software man. It is fun too. I have very good memories from projects where you could first build a useful small part of the system. The client could then update his requirements and you could get all the bugs out and when all was stable you would build the next part of the system. The client has a useful system very early in the project and because you work together with the client (the user) in an early stage of the project, errors in the specification and the programs never last long. Cost control is also facilitated. You have a satisfied customer most of the time during development and very much so in the end. This was for projects for up to 1.000.000 lines of code. Wim ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Kennedy To: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jim Davis wrote: > > > IMHO: All software development should be performed as such: > > > > 1) Requirements - what should it do, and not do. Spin this till > > everybody signs off. > > Ah, creationism (see the Jargon Dictionary if you're not familiar > with the term). > > What is describe is all very textbook. That, then begs the question, > "why is it that software isn't, in general, done in this fashion?". > > The answer is found in step one: the assumption that innovative > hunks of software can be fully specified in advanced. For software > that is truly innovative this is empirically very rarely the case, > as what the customer _thinks_ they want is frequently not what they > end up wanting/needing in the end. Trotting out signed-off specs > in no way improves the situation. > > In practice the solution is to accept the fact that specs, no matter > how much they are labored over, are for most efforts soft, and > then describe mechanism to deal with uncertainty as part of the > development process. Rapid prototype, stepwise refinement, > the understanding that one cannot test their way to correctness and > a willingness to throw at least one implementation completely > away, coupled with small, agile teams that work with an active > user community empirically produce more correct results in less > time that alternative techniques. > > Not like any of this is new. Brooks described this eons ago > in _The Mythical Man Month_... > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:51 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: "Geeks" and licensing > > > And possibly add some planning where you use historical data and basic > statistics to figure out how big the product will likely be, how long it > will take, and what resources need to be allocated to complete it. > > > For safety critical, you should /have to perform statement and > > decision coverage in step 6 and 7 and the detailed design should have > > a one-to-one corespondence with the detailed design document. Jim > > Davis. > > The software process course I just got out of also heavily pushed peer > review of designs and code as a way to filter out defects before testing. > These have their benefits, but I remain unconvinced of their status as the > great panacea of software engineering that the course touted them as. > > For a little bit of on-topic goodness, what is the group's opinion on the > trend of software engineering quality starting from ancient times? Have > we improved (practially, not academically) or worsened? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > > From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Dec 17 17:28:41 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: Christopher Smith wrote: > From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steven_j_robertson@hotmail.com] > 3.) The explosion of the Internet has brought a lot of people > into the > software development arena that should be in other > professions. In recent > years, anyone that knew a language's syntax could get a job > as a developer. > "Knowing the syntax does not a developer make". Hmmm... That > could be my new > sig file :-) I agree completely, but since you raise such a good point, what would you say _does_ make one a "developer?" Hmmm. I'm not sure the "explosion of the Internet" had anything to do with it. As far as I can tell things started to tank in the mid-80's, when I noticed that all of the resume packages coming out of Berkeley were starting to look more or less identical save for the name at the top (it wasn't uncommon to find several sharing an address and telephone number). At the time I realized that what had happened was that engineering -- at least of the EECS or CS sort -- had become "popular", and Berkeley had started to limit enrollment in the majors based on academic performance. If you're a school and you're looking for a metric, academic performance may be an obvious one, but it's not at all clear that academic performance is a strong predictor of someone making a good engineer. Empirically it's quite the opposite; _most_ people who perform well in a purely academic sense seem to do so by restricting themselves to learning and regurgitating only what is put in front of them, where most people that I consider to be good engineers tend to head off on tangents as interesting things cross their paths, not stopping until a new concept is understood and somehow integrated into their bag of tricks. FWIW, I developed my own metric in response: I'd hire a new grad with a solid C average who had worked or done interesting projects in the field _outside_ of the academic setting before I'd hire someone with a straight-A average who had never done anything beyond what the curriculum demanded. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 17 17:27:40 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: from "Eric Dittman" at Dec 17, 2001 04:19:30 PM Message-ID: <200112172327.fBHNReF32681@shell1.aracnet.com> > Today I found the following: > > 1) IBM PS/2 P70 Portable with Xenix386 loaded. Does anyone know > how to bypass the root password so I can log in? Is it Xenix or AIX? I know IBM had a version of AIX that ran on these. Or was it just that funky Microkernel OS/2 thing running on one of these with AIX running at the same time? I know I saw that at a trade show once in DC, that was cool! Zane From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 17 17:46:54 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <200112172327.fBHNReF32681@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200112172327.fBHNReF32681@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > > Today I found the following: >> >> 1) IBM PS/2 P70 Portable with Xenix386 loaded. Does anyone know >> how to bypass the root password so I can log in? > >Is it Xenix or AIX? I know IBM had a version of AIX that ran on these. Or >was it just that funky Microkernel OS/2 thing running on one of these with >AIX running at the same time? I know I saw that at a trade show once in DC, >that was cool! Either way, that would be pretty cool. I've got Warp Connect running on my P70 with an Evergreen 486 upgrade. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rcpavlicek at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 17:39:27 2001 From: rcpavlicek at yahoo.com (Russell Pavlicek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: DEC Cable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011217233927.27295.qmail@web10407.mail.yahoo.com> Michael's reply is not entirely correct. I have access to a VS3100 which is connected to a non-color monitor using an RGB cable. It uses the Green lead as I recall. -- Russ Pavlicek --- Michael Kukat wrote: > Hello, > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > I've got two cables here, DEC p/n BCC17-06 and > one with out a p/n, > > but looks like a DEC cable. Any ideas who/what > they're for? And can one of > > them replace the mono video cable on my VAX > Station 3100 (BC23K-03)? > > I don't know these cables, but as both are RGB > cables, none of them can replace > a mono cable. Also look at > http://www.bsdfans.org/pinouts.php for the full > pinout of those connectors. > > And additionally, DEC changed the pinout somewhen > for the DECstations and DEC > (Alpha) machines, maybe even VAXstation 4000 has a > different pinout (do they > have the 15pin connector? Don't know now). > > Best way would be to take a soldering iron and make > the cable yourself. The > other way would be a small bridge between the mono > and the green pin to get > the cable doing mono on the green wire. But this is > a modification to your > holy VAXstation, and you don't really want to do > this :) > > And then, there is still the problem with the pinout > difference between > DECstations and VAXstaions. So, as your VAXstation > has own keyboard/mouse > connectors, a simple mono video cable would be the > best. > > ...Michael > > -- > visit http://www.bsdfans.org/ Home network powered > by: NetBSD OpenBSD FreeBSD > Solaris HP-UX IRIX AIX MUNIX Tru64 Ultrix VMS SINIX > Dolphin_Unix OpenStep MacOS > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 17 18:04:38 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....) In-Reply-To: <20011217010351.Q86991-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > > I was the LAN Op at Building 5, PRC from mid-98 thru late last year. > > That's literally next door to the cantral surplus barn. I was friends > > with the guy who is now the director, who was the shop foreman then. I > > can tell you first-hand that the Surplus department has a lot more > > control over classification than the releasing department. > > They must have more control. As I said on another thread, they auctioned > a huge load of very much on-topic stuff to me from that very barn. Sounds like I may have to find a way of transportation to their next auction. It sounds like they have better stuff and seem to care more then the places down here. > > There is some leeway as to what is designated DCE. If the unit is > > suffciently outdated and slow (OK, by THEIR standards), it's likely to > > be sold as scrap at auction. > > The auctions seem to be held by Swico Auctions (www.swicoauctions.com), > and there's one coming up on January 23. I'm waiting for them to post > a list of items. I'd never heard of Swico till you mentioned them, and they look like a good company. I've been dealing with Shattuck for years, and must say those guys really seem to know how to run an auction. > I don't have the money to make a haul this time, but I'm still eager > to see what will be there. I know all too well how that goes...I've had to drop out of bidding on some things before that I really would have liked to bought and gotten running again. Sadly we have some moron dealers and individuals that go to some of these auctions, who think they are really gonna be able to resell say a dead VaxStation w/o monitor/kbd/mouse for $500-1000 or more ;P -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 17 18:08:20 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:15 2005 Subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > UT is required to remove all data from the machines they send TDC. Most > > warehouses wipe the drives in the PC machines (only drives with > > fat16/fat32 format), and remove and scrap any drives that don't fit that > > profile. Some warehouses simply remove all drives and scrap them. > > Scrapping always means rendering the drive completely useless. Some > > warehouses drill holes in the drives, and some run them thru an industrial > > chipper. Even worse, they never remove the mounting brackets from the > > drives before scrapping them. > > I forgot to add that if you read the law carefully, the OS and installed > programs are specifically exempt from removal. Which is, in the case of > PCs especially, insane. Most Windows users have no idea where they're > storing data, and very few departmental "computer guys" are patient > enough to thoroughly check a PC for data files, email, bookmark files, > or whatever. IMNSHO that's Windows' single biggest sin - you can put any > file you want anywhere you want to. Or delete same. Back on track, > though, that provision leaves the doors open for a very wide range of > interpretation. I read the exact same section, and had the same thoughts. What I wish they would do (and I've mentioned this to a few warehouse managers), is get the free QuickRestore cdrom sets from Compaq (most of the pc machines they have down here are Compaq), wipe the drive and do a clean install. If they did this, and it were not for SB1105, they could then resell working pc machine and get back some of the tax money they are currently throwing away. -Toth From louiss at gate.net Mon Dec 17 18:07:04 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: Warp Connect V3 (was Re: OS/2) In-Reply-To: <200112172159.fBHLxUo28300@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: You can patch Warp 3 up to its final Fixpack (40) from IBM's OS/2 support site. The latest version of OS/2 (which is still supported and updated) is 4.5. It is available only by subscription from IBM, or it has also been incorporated into a retail version by a third party called ECom Station, which you can find out about at their website. Warp 4.5 is much better than any version of Windows. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the level of hardware or software support, of course. Louis On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:59:30 -0800 (PST), Zane H. Healy wrote: #> disks for the Bonus Pack. OS/2 Warp Connect version 3 (Blue box, #> includes DOS/Windows support) is on CD-ROM, as is the Bonus Pack. It #> does have two diskettes from which to boot the system for #> installation though. Is there a specific disk(s) that you need to #> replace for Warp 3? I also have OS/2 for Windows version 2.1. # #Are the updates still available for this anywhere? For some reason, I'm in #the process of building a PP200 up as an OS/2 system and Warp 3 is the #newest version I've got. (OK, ok, I admit, I'm building it to play #"Galactic Civilizations".) Anyway, I'd kind of like to get it updated to #the current patch level or whatever it's called in OS/2 (been way to long #since I switched to the Mac from OS/2). # # Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 18:27:46 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >> that will do 125ns easily. Or you could easily find a d765 >> off an old board or NOS from JDR. >Do you know of a WD37C65 data sheet on the web? Check SMC for it. >> parts and the requisite connections. Of the latter, the fewer the >> better for both buildability and reliability. >Hmm what ever happened to sockets and repairable stuff. I hate sockets and try to avoid them, I've had equipment that didn't use the machined pin sockets and most all had to be rebuilt sans sockets at one point or another. > >> package = $1.35. So instead of Xilinx's $4.40 OTP chip we use a 8 pin PIC >> and the serial EEPROM for a total of $2.29 and get re-programmability... > >A good solution but this is a one-shot project so price is not a major >problem A lousy one if you have a raft of TTL and few FPGAs. ;) I have a few of the Lattice and Xilinx tools, older ones and the synario stuff too. I just dont get all that excited about it. I've designed a cpu and built it years ago, it out of my system and not worth repeating. Any cpu I'd do would need software and that means it would likely be a copy of something... likely something I have. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 17 02:47:16 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C1DB114.9E0D2B9B@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > Check SMC for it. SMC? > I hate sockets and try to avoid them, I've had equipment that > didn't use the machined pin sockets and most all had to be > rebuilt sans sockets at one point or another. In this case I plan to use good sockets. > A lousy one if you have a raft of TTL and few FPGAs. ;) All the TTL is in the FPGA.:) Most of the TTL used is simple buffering or decoding. > I have a few of the Lattice and Xilinx tools, older ones and the synario > stuff too. I just dont get all that excited about it. I've designed a > cpu and built it years ago, it out of my system and not worth repeating. The whole point of the cpu I designed, was because I am not happy with 8 bit micro's, RISC machines, or INTEL. Now what I wonder about is people that put a 6502 in a FPGA while you still can buy the real thing? I also wonder about FPGA's when you can't fit a 6502 in one! > Any cpu I'd do would need software and that means it would likely > be a copy of something... likely something I have. I can guarantee you don't have a 12/24 bit cpu like mine. ( Not that you would want one :) ) > Allison -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Dec 17 14:35:39 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: References: <003601c18691$ed237b70$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20011218013114.BPXT14868.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:24:53 -0800 (PST) > From: Sellam Ismail > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: was "how to clean".. How did they > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better > at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). Women, hmm but don't kid youself, many men are capable of this task because in old days and still is repairing mechanical watches even still make them and produce replacement parts by hand. Those mechanical wind up and analog quartz watches still require cleaning and lubing. Been there and have shirt for clocks and watches on making precision parts and also for computers. With more practice and proper tools, I can on more diffcult parts of certain parts in timepieces. But I can't yet due to no funds available for those tools I can machine fine parts by hand. Smallest wind-up watch that you can buy is (out of it's casing) size of 4 dimes stacked by seiko or russian made (cardial). Cheers, Wizard > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival PS: Asolute master clock-maker can produce very accurate time-pieces suitable for nav. Beauiful piece of work! :-) From kenziem at sympatico.ca Mon Dec 17 18:35:24 2001 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: FLUKE? In-Reply-To: <20011202.212704.-249581.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <20011202.212704.-249581.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20011218003435.WIOH9690.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> On Sunday 02 December 2001 22:27, jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > I worked for FLUKE in the early 1980's, at their Burbank > repair facility, in Burbank Ca (where I also lived). > > The FLUKE 1720 and 1722 machines did not use 8" floppy > drives, they used 5.25" floppies, with optional bubble > memory and Winchester (using a GPIB interface). > > There are only three kinds of system that FLUKE made > that utilized (or could have utilized) 8" floppies: > > 1. FLUKE 3040/3050/3053 series board testers. These > are of some interest, because it's the only application > I ever saw that used the PACE microprocessor. > These things are about the size and shape of an upright > piano (and just as heavy). The 'upright' part > covered mit swicthen und blinkenlites. Just took a second looked and they are labeled 3050 Also in the box were a few labels from IBM and a TRS model II, but no disks. From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Mon Dec 17 19:07:46 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: > >The book by Brooks {The Mythical Man Month)should be mandatory reading for >every software man. It is fun too. >I have very good memories from projects where you could first build a >useful >small part of the system. The client could then update his requirements >and >you could get all the bugs out and when all was stable you would build the >next part of the system. The client has a useful system very early in the >project and because you work together with the client (the user) in an >early >stage of the project, errors in the specification and the programs never >last long. Cost control is also facilitated. You have a satisfied customer >most of the time during development and very much so in the end. This was >for projects for up to 1.000.000 lines of code. > IMHO, Steve McConnell's "Code Complete" should be required knowledge for all software engineers. Prototyping is certainly a valuable tool for developing complex applications. However, one must remember that the prototype is a means to the end and not the final product. Once the application is defined, you should throw away the prototype and build the system from scratch using the knowledge gained from the prototype. By doing that, you'll have complete requirements, a more efficient design, and happy customers. In real life, it's pretty tough to convince management that you should start all over. The typical reaction is to put the prototype in a box and sell as is :-( SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Dec 17 19:20:44 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: Warp Connect V3 (was Re: OS/2) Message-ID: <18e.a82eb6.294ff3ec@aol.com> In a message dated 12/17/01 7:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, louiss@gate.net writes: << You can patch Warp 3 up to its final Fixpack (40) from IBM's OS/2 support site. The latest version of OS/2 (which is still supported and updated) is 4.5. It is available only by subscription from IBM, or it has also been incorporated into a retail version by a third party called ECom Station, which you can find out about at their website. Warp 4.5 is much better than any version of Windows. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the level of hardware or software support, of course. Louis >> The best way to update OS/2 is to find the WarpUp cd that was made by indelible blue. Unfortunately, they are out of business. I use it on my OS/2 systems and its pretty much automated although the java install takes hours for some reason. I'm not sure who has taken over the warpup project now. If someone is looking for it perhaps I can help.... easy networking with OS/2 www.nothingtodo.org/easyos2.htm From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Dec 17 19:44:41 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: Burroughs - any information? In-Reply-To: References: <3C1826C9.D639FE67@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011217204441.007cd2e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:26 PM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > >> Was not Burroughs and a few other companies noted for destroying all old >> equipment >> and leasing only? > >Yes. No necessarily. I used to work for Burroughs in Roanoke, Va and we just pushed the old machines out to the dumpster. We never pulled any parts or anything so they were complete. I was amazed to discover this when I started work there and I asked if it was ok to pull parts and they said yes. I looted the first few machines but soon had all the parts I wanted so the rest escaped untouched. Burroughs usually rented machines but I know they did sell atleast some of them. But their repair, updates and other service costs were so expensive that I doubt anyone other than US Government agencies were foolish enough to buy the machine and pay cash for service. Joe From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Dec 17 19:53:39 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: More Great Re-finds During move Message-ID: <01f001c18766$f47c8620$46731fd1@default> Today I really got lucky and found some items I had been looking for such the NeXT megapixel display model N4000B for the NeXT cube I have yet to test and others that I had forgot that I had. The others are listed below: 2. CPT 8535 with dual 8" drives 3. HP 87 4. hp 140A scope 5. ALTOS 686 6. digital Micro PDP-11 tower 7. IBM 5110 8. Monroe 326 Scientist with Monroe 392 cassette, manual (marked Beta), and a nice black carrying case 9. CPT 9000 tower (good for parts only) 10. CPT SRS 45 (2 of them) 11. TeleVideo model 910 terminal 12. HP150 with built-in printer 13. IBM type 4055 terminal 14. UNISYS terminal could not find a model number on it I loaded a few of the finds in front of the truck to bring home to play with. That's it for now. Keep computing From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 17 21:10:41 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: Crays, SB1105, Texas state law (was: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > I guess it depends on which location/warehouse stuff is located at. UT > M.D. Anderson Cancer Center seems to auction off some of their older > non-pc stuff. UT Houston Health Science Center sends *everything* that > remotely resembles a computer to TDC. UT Medical Branch at Galveston also > seems to take no chances with SB1105 and sends nearly everything to TDC. I > haven't been to many UT Austin auctions, so I don't know what the normal > practice is there. I've never been to any of the UT San Antonio auctions, > but it sounds like they do a better job of sorting than most of the other > locations. Each location is run more or less independently from the > others, so this isn't surprising. Oh. My. God. Reading this, I realized I'm as guilty as the little snobs going to UT Austin. "You mean there are *other* UTs???" The other campusses just never entered my mind. Slinking off to dig a hole, Doc From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 21:26:18 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: Paper Tape Fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011218032618.24640.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> I recently acquired (out of desperation) a DSI paper tape punch/reader on ePay (at a reasonable price, but not guaranteed to work). I cleaned it up, oiled it here and there, and after puzzling out the RS-232, got it running punching Mylar fine. To test it, I wrote a Windows program to test it out with; the program lets you type in a phrase, looks up the ASCII, and prints the letters out on the tape in a 7x5 matrix format, upper and lower case. I'm pretty sure that there were programs that ran on mainframes to do this sort of thing. Useless, but kind of fun - I made a banner for my museum with it. If anyone on this list has a punch, and admits to using Windows, ha ha, I can make this available. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 21:20:52 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: 8008/SCELBI Emulator Now Available for Testing In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A021@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20011218032052.50486.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Recently, I've embarked on building modern copies of microcomputer systems utilizing "the big three" micros avilable at the dawn of the personal computing era - namely, the 8008, the 8080, and the 6800. I wanted each to run a high level language. The only HLL I could find for an 8008 was SCELBAL, a BASIC-like language for the 8008 and 8080, written in 1975/76. It was never apperantly released except in book form; I have put in in computer readable form, and written an assembler for it (it uses somewhat old fashioned assembler syntax). In order to test it and to make it rommable, I needed to debug it, so I wrote a debugger/emulator for it, and one thing lead to another, and I wound up making a fairly fully-featured emulator/debugger for the 8008 complete with virtual UART, terminal, and the ability to output to a COM port (yeah, I could have done Telnet, but, hey, it's an 8008, fer goodness sakes...). Although the program was written in VB6 (when all's you got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail), some trickery permits 8008 code to execute approximately as fast as a real 8008 when the emulator is run on a PII-450. The COM port feature is nice because you can put SCELBAL to the com port, hook up a terminal at 300 baud to the back of the PC, and pretend you have an 8008. The code is in "kinda beta" form now, but it is quite usable; I may improve it if there is any interest. I think it is one of the only 8008 emulators available. It's at: ftp://ftp.mindspring.com/users/sloboyko It consists of a READ.ME (please read it), the ZIP (an installer), and a patch that consists of a newer EXE which should replace the one installed by the installer. Feel free to download it if you are interested, but if you're only mildly interested, please don't, because I don't have infinite bandwidth usage available on this account. Let me know what you think of it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 17 21:38:16 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: 3" FDD free to good home Message-ID: <20011218034112.JFMR11348.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Marked in black felt-pen on the drive: "Amstrad PCW 8256." Cable is attached. Unit is untested and is yours for postage from Orlando FL. Any interest? Glen 0/0 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 17 20:06:20 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist "[PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?" (Dec 18, 0:07) References: Message-ID: <10112180206.ZM25016@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 18, 0:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Domestic ones I've seen won't. Apart from the soaking -- that's the point > > of using it, obviously. Very few things are intolerant: some relays, > > transformers, a few types of switches, etc, usually just because they take > > too long to dry out. And core mats, of course, because they're very > > fragile and extremely hard to repair. > > Don't forget old transformers, which often use something looking very much > like paper for isolation. Agreed. That's why my PDP-8/E's H740 power supply got a different treatment. It still got washed, though. > > > Grab a bottle of isopropanol, some swabs, and start working. > > > > Doesn't work well on smoke-damaged boards, Coke, etc, and water is far > > cheaper and safer (for the user, too). > > It works, but it requires more work. It doesn't work very well. It's almost impossible to get all the crud out from under ICs, DIL switches, or sockets. IPA does not do a good job on smoke-damaged boards. > > TTL may be > > much less sensitive than old CMOS and even modern CMOS and TTL > > replacements, but it is still sensitive and can be damaged by ESD. It's > > not so likely to be damaged when soldered into a complete circuit, but it's > > possible. I've had at least two QBus boards damaged by ESD through > > careless handling. > > Eh? Q-bus cards, even the oldest you can find, are LSI stuff. You won't > find much of anything even *that* modern in a PDP-8. Actually, much Q-bus > stuff is really modern compared to what I'm thinking of... Plenty of QBus cards use TTL, basic 74 series, not just LS. I just pulled a few out to check. In the faulty ones I referred to, it was some TTL PROMs in one of them that had gone (lost several bits), and I can't remember what was wrong with the other one. Nevertheless, even original 74 series TTL is static-sensitive, and the worst part is that things can be degraded by ESD without failing completely. That's why modern circuits include extra ESD protection. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Dec 17 20:10:10 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Robertson wrote: > IMHO, Steve McConnell's "Code Complete" should be required knowledge for all > software engineers Amen, brother. I'm still amazed that it's published by Microsquish Press. > In real life, it's pretty tough to convince management that you should start > all over. The typical reaction is to put the prototype in a box and sell as > is :-( Another manifestation of the "There isn't enough time to do it right but there's enough time to do it over" school of thought :-( -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 17 20:19:45 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <200112172327.fBHNReF32681@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 17, 2001 03:27:40 PM Message-ID: <200112180219.fBI2JjP25433@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Today I found the following: > > > > 1) IBM PS/2 P70 Portable with Xenix386 loaded. Does anyone know > > how to bypass the root password so I can log in? > > Is it Xenix or AIX? I know IBM had a version of AIX that ran on these. Or > was it just that funky Microkernel OS/2 thing running on one of these with > AIX running at the same time? I know I saw that at a trade show once in DC, > that was cool! It is definitely Xenix. It identifies itself as such. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 17 20:20:38 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Dec 17, 2001 06:46:54 PM Message-ID: <200112180220.fBI2Kc725445@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Either way, that would be pretty cool. I've got Warp Connect > running on my P70 with an Evergreen 486 upgrade. I'm pretty sure a 486 upgrade will be my next step. Do you have any pointers for entering the BIOS, opening the system, etc.? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 17 21:02:21 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <200112180220.fBI2Kc725445@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200112180220.fBI2Kc725445@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: > > Either way, that would be pretty cool. I've got Warp Connect >> running on my P70 with an Evergreen 486 upgrade. > >I'm pretty sure a 486 upgrade will be my next step. Do you have >any pointers for entering the BIOS, opening the system, etc.? Is there anything with Xenix that would cause it to choke on a 486 upgrade in the P70? Even if it didn't, you likely wouldn't see much of a speed increase since some/all of the upgrades, such as the Evergreen Rev-to-486 like I used, require a driver to enable the cache. The only problem I've run into so far is that the driver seems to be conflicting with the use of an XGA-2 at the same time. Otherwise the upgrade, which uses a TI 486SXL2 running at 40mhz, works fine under OS/2 with an IBM SCSI card and 3com NIC card. There are better accelerator options but they require the use of one of the MCA slots, of which there aren't enough of as it is! As for opening the machine, it's pretty simple. Undo the three large slotted screw fasteners (two on the bottom of the case, one in the upper-right corner of the back, beneathe the cover door) and then gently press in on the bottom of the machine, working your way from one side to the other. This will gently unlatch the fingers holding the back panel to the main part of the case. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 17 21:28:16 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Dec 17, 2001 10:02:21 PM Message-ID: <200112180328.fBI3SGZ26025@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Is there anything with Xenix that would cause it to choke on > a 486 upgrade in the P70? Even if it didn't, you likely wouldn't > see much of a speed increase since some/all of the upgrades, such as > the Evergreen Rev-to-486 like I used, require a driver to enable the > cache. The only problem I've run into so far is that the driver > seems to be conflicting with the use of an XGA-2 at the same time. > Otherwise the upgrade, which uses a TI 486SXL2 running at 40mhz, > works fine under OS/2 with an IBM SCSI card and 3com NIC card. There > are better accelerator options but they require the use of one of the > MCA slots, of which there aren't enough of as it is! I'm thinking of the MCMASTER upgrade, if I can find one. I know it uses one of the MCA slots, but I only need one extra one for an Ethernet card. > As for opening the machine, it's pretty simple. Undo the > three large slotted screw fasteners (two on the bottom of the case, > one in the upper-right corner of the back, beneathe the cover door) > and then gently press in on the bottom of the machine, working your > way from one side to the other. This will gently unlatch the fingers > holding the back panel to the main part of the case. Thanks! I thought those three screws were the ones to start with, but I don't want to break this unit right off the bat. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ubertechnoid at home.com Mon Dec 17 20:26:28 2001 From: ubertechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels References: <10112152104.ZM20810@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <00f701c1876b$66478c60$3700a8c0@benchbox> My Sparcstation 4/330 has a bank of ten (or so) red leds in a row. These light in varios patterns to indicate which self test is being conducted at power on. After this, the leds 'race' back and forth faster or slower depending on the CPU load. Unfortunately, this cool load meter doesn't work in netbsd or openbsd, only in Solaris. My Vaxstation 4000/60 has an 8 (or so) red led that also posts codes at power on but nothing else in either vms or in netbsd. I recompiled the netbsd 1.5.2 kernel to enable the led on the Sparc.....and nothing still. Why on earth would Sun put a cool set of leds UNDERNEATH the cover? I mean, you might as well put it out there. Regards, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels > On Dec 15, 19:49, Matt London wrote: > > > >From what I've noticed, the SparcStation 1 flashes it's power LED when > > doing a selftest, but I'm not near the box, so I can't check :&) > > > > And as Jeff said - Amigas flash the power LED. > > So they do. I should have remembered that, since I have one of each in > this room! > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 17 20:28:42 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better tolerance for boring tedious work while sitting on their butts for long periods of time. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:25 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: was "how to clean".. How did they On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 17 20:55:16 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > > Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. > And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better > at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better tolerance for > boring tedious work while sitting on their butts for long periods of time. And keeping in mind that we are talking about IBM and the like, they would hire women for it because they could get away with paying them less. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 17 20:37:45 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: > I should add to the list of hard to find stuff early Intergraph > workstations. Clipper based, and pre-clipper (were they VAX?) Intergraph > systems. The early big servers were VAX based. In fact, they were mostly just rebadged. RCS/RI has an Intergraph VAX 8550. It has some really strange custom hardware in the disk controllers - something about these things could do searches thru files on the disks for specific graphics entities (for CAD) without bothering the processor. Odd. > There's one CDC workstation that was a re-badged Indigo, that's > relatively common. It's the only CDC system I've seen for sale. CDC was rebadging IRIS 3000 machines as Cyber 910s. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 20:00:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <003001c18767$ca791a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:13 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Peter, you're missing the point. However, first of all, EP6xx an EP9xx were not > > of the classic "PAL" genre. They were early CPLD's, since they contained, the > > equivalent of two or more PALs. Those were quite expensive, particularly in the > > Altera cases, since, although Intel and TI made the physical parts for them, > > they disguised it enough that folks thought of the Intel parts as being quite > > different, hence quite expensive, thereby not placing cost pressure on ALTERA. > > Since the TI parts were identical, their agreement with Altera apparently was > > that they'd be noncompetetive. The OTP's which were quite inexpensive, were, at > > least in the case of the EP6xx and EP3xx quite reasonable, though not as > > inexpensive as the 16R/L/Xnn bipolar parts from TI, NS, MMI, Signetics, and AMD > > among others. > > > > The PAL16R/L/Xnnn series were quite a bit less costly, faster, and more > > straightforward in their application than the Altera parts, however, costing <$2 > > in production lots. > > I think you are missing the point, In 1981 PALS were expensive... > Yes, they were, but the 8250 cost WAY more back then than, say, a 2651 with an external '393 counter. The makers of most of the add-on I/O boards I've got lying about seem to have found PALs cost effective, BTW. That said, I believe that I pointed out that the same task was readily achievable with less than half-a-dollar's worth of TTL SSI logic. I think this discussion is exhausted. The discussion of the SIO/DART arose from your apparent unawareness of the multi-channel serial devices that several manufacturers were pushing before the PC was even a reality. The fact that you don't like the interface requirements of the DART/SIO for the ISA environment is clear, and, while I think it's at least as big a piece of rubbish as is the SIO, along with the other Z80 peripherals, The 8250 isn't any better or worse for the ISA, IMHO, because it doesn't take any more logic to interface the thing. Just because YOU don't like the details doesn't make it bad. Just because I like it, which is not the case, wouldn't make it good. I've said I don't like the Z80 peripherals, even for a Z80 environment, and that stands. There's no accounting for taste. I didn't like the 8250 particularly either because back in '81-82, it was among the more costly serial interface IC's. The fact that it had a divider in it for generating the baud rate clock didn't impress me, since it cost 3x or so what the same function in a 2651, 8251, or 6850, with an external divider would have cost. Clearly, cost didn't matter to the designers of the PC serial port board, else they wouldn't have used a $16 in 100-quantity part where a $5 part would have done the job with the aid of a 50-cent counter. The Signetics 2681 was certainly available as a dual in '80/81, and cost less than the 8250. There was one in every Visual50 terminal, and I had several of those back then. I had to buy 8250's to populate multi-port serial boards for various S-100 systems back then and was acutely aware of the cost of an 8250 as opposed to a less generously provisioned device. It had lots of parallel bits, that some folks used, but I never needed them. > As far as the EPXXX Parts go, I was just mentioning when we first used > programmable logic. We made low power systems so we had to wait until CMOS > parts were available at a reasonable price. When we started using Altera, > there was no second source, Intel parts were available only a few years > later, and TI after that (and only a few parts) > > > > > You could without much ado accomplish the same tasks with TTL MSI/SSI. It's > > still not rocket science, and still not expensive, except that more than one > > component is involved. Several I/O board makers did that with 8250's as well. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > > > > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements for a > > Z80 > > > > > > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd dispose > > of any > > > > > > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or > > equivalent > > > > > > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to the > > thing in > > > > > > an hour or less. > > > > > > > > > > Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > > > > > expensive. > > > > > > It was as trivial then as now, if you preferred TTL SSI/MSI logic. I think you > > could do it with a 74LS00 and a 74LS74. That's about $0.25 for the two back > > then. > > Not quite, you need to generate a wait state so IORQ is more than 200 nS > long (since we lost a cycle generating the RD --> IORQ delay), so you need > a tri-state output to drive IOCHRDY, and theres that niggling timing > question with the DART's clock signal. Maybe it would work with the ISA > clock, maybe not... I think you underestimate how tightly integrated the > Z80 peripherals are with Z80 bus timing... > > > > > > > > > I never heard about pal's until about 1990. In some ways the peripheral > > > > chips are in a really sorry shape. You have vintage slow I/O (2 MHZ?) > > > > or PC motherboard chip sets. Nothing in between. On my FPGA I can run > > > > with a 250 ns memory cycle, but need to stretch it to 625 ns for I/O. > > > > > The peripheral chips in every 1981-82 PC, PC-Clone, etc, that I've got in the > > basement (they're all in one box) are 5 MHz parts without exception. These were > > readily available to mfg's who purchased the quantity, but weren't available in > > surplus for a while. > > > > > > PALs were certainly available earlier, just expensive, > > > non-reprogramable, and power hungry. I think we used our first > > > programmable logic in 1986 (Altera EP900s and EP320s - both low power) for > > > emulation of some PC motherboard stuff in our low power V40 based embedded > > > PCs. We never used PALs but have used GALs a lot for simple decoders and > > > random logic. > > > > Bipolar logic was, indeed, power-hungry but that was the technology of the time. > > EP???' were not bipolar, they were CMOS, and, in the case of the '80's perhaps > > even NMOS. I'm not certain about that. GALs became avaiable in '84-85 and they > > were expensive for only a short time, quickly grabbing market share when folks > > realized that the 16V8 replaced the 16L8, 16R4, 16R6, 16R8, and several others. > > Once the programming algorithms were available in the common programmers and > > there was affordable software with which to use them, and I frequently used > > conversion software from PAL fuse maps to GAL parts, having developed them from > > PALASM intended for bipolar parts, I never bought another bipolar PAL. For > > obvious reasons, it wasn't long before the GALs had replaced al the 16L/R parts. > > > > > At about $.50 now they are hard to beat. > > > I think I would do most non-common (probably not Ethernet, USB or > > > video) I/O these days with FPGAs. Its great to be able to change the > > > function and pinout with just a downloadble config file. A 100K (Well > > > maybe 15K if you remove Xilinx inflation factor) SpartanII chip is only > > > $19.00... > > > > > > > > There are several free HDL's in Verilog or VHDL for a fast ethernet interface > > that will run entirely in a small Spartan or moderate 4000-series device costing > > less than $25, but that's in quantity. Likewise, those can be implemented in > > CPLD's for about the same cost. USB is better done in a dedicated (for the USB) > > MCU, and at lower cost. Of course you have to license a Device ID. (or whatever > > they call it) > > > Unless you have a compelling need to integrate the MAC part of > Ethernet into a FPGA, FPGA Ethernet is more expensive than an external > Ethernet chip. Also, It is not possible to integrate the PHY into a FPGA > at the moment (well maybe with some oddball mixed signal part) and when I > can get a 100BT Ethernet chip with integrated PHY for less than $5.00, it > would be silly to use a major portion of a $20 chip for a non standard > Ethernet interface that doesn't even have any driver support... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Dec 17 20:44:49 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <003001c18767$ca791a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:13 AM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > Peter, you're missing the point. However, first of all, EP6xx an EP9xx were > not > > > of the classic "PAL" genre. They were early CPLD's, since they contained, > the > > > equivalent of two or more PALs. Those were quite expensive, particularly in > the > > > Altera cases, since, although Intel and TI made the physical parts for them, > > > they disguised it enough that folks thought of the Intel parts as being > quite > > > different, hence quite expensive, thereby not placing cost pressure on > ALTERA. > > > Since the TI parts were identical, their agreement with Altera apparently > was > > > that they'd be noncompetetive. The OTP's which were quite inexpensive, > were, at > > > least in the case of the EP6xx and EP3xx quite reasonable, though not as > > > inexpensive as the 16R/L/Xnn bipolar parts from TI, NS, MMI, Signetics, and > AMD > > > among others. > > > > > > The PAL16R/L/Xnnn series were quite a bit less costly, faster, and more > > > straightforward in their application than the Altera parts, however, costing > <$2 > > > in production lots. > > > > I think you are missing the point, In 1981 PALS were expensive... > > > Yes, they were, but the 8250 cost WAY more back then than, say, a 2651 with an > external '393 counter. The makers of most of the add-on I/O boards I've got > lying about seem to have found PALs cost effective, BTW. That said, I believe > that I pointed out that the same task was readily achievable with less than > half-a-dollar's worth of TTL SSI logic. I think this discussion is exhausted. > > The discussion of the SIO/DART arose from your apparent unawareness of the > multi-channel serial devices that several manufacturers were pushing before the > PC was even a reality. The fact that you don't like the interface requirements > of the DART/SIO for the ISA environment is clear, I am perfectly aware of multiple channel serial chips, we used one in our Sprite CPM machine in 1978... And its not just that I dont like the DART in a ISA environment, I dont think it even makes sense to use it as you suggested. I doubt that there is a single add-on card that uses a DART for the ISA bus... and, while I think it's at > least as big a piece of rubbish as is the SIO, along with the other Z80 > peripherals, The 8250 isn't any better or worse for the ISA, IMHO, because it > doesn't take any more logic to interface the thing. Takes much less logic, only a decode Just because YOU don't like > the details doesn't make it bad. Just because I like it, which is not the case, > wouldn't make it good. I've said I don't like the Z80 peripherals, even for a > Z80 environment, and that stands. There's no accounting for taste. > > I didn't like the 8250 particularly either because back in '81-82, it was among > the more costly serial interface IC's. The fact that it had a divider in it for > generating the baud rate clock didn't impress me, since it cost 3x or so what > the same function in a 2651, 8251, or 6850, with an external divider would have > cost. Clearly, cost didn't matter to the designers of the PC serial port board, > else they wouldn't have used a $16 in 100-quantity part where a $5 part would > have done the job with the aid of a 50-cent counter. The Signetics 2681 was > certainly available as a dual in '80/81, and cost less than the 8250. There was > one in every Visual50 terminal, and I had several of those back then. > > I had to buy 8250's to populate multi-port serial boards for various S-100 > systems back then and was acutely aware of the cost of an 8250 as opposed to a > less generously provisioned device. It had lots of parallel bits, that some > folks used, but I never needed them. I pressume thats why IBM chose it since it supported a full set of Modem control lines... > > > As far as the EPXXX Parts go, I was just mentioning when we first used > > programmable logic. We made low power systems so we had to wait until CMOS > > parts were available at a reasonable price. When we started using Altera, > > there was no second source, Intel parts were available only a few years > > later, and TI after that (and only a few parts) > > > > > > > > You could without much ado accomplish the same tasks with TTL MSI/SSI. It's > > > still not rocket science, and still not expensive, except that more than one > > > component is involved. Several I/O board makers did that with 8250's as > well. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 1:17 PM > > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree that it's a mess. I haven't looked at the requirements > for a > > > Z80 > > > > > > > peripheral since the early '80's, but I can assure you that I'd > dispose > > > of any > > > > > > > 1st year engineering intern who couldn't whip up a suitable PAL or > > > equivalent > > > > > > > MSI/SSI logic to handle the generation of properly timed inputs to > the > > > thing in > > > > > > > an hour or less. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > > > > > > expensive. > > > > > > > > It was as trivial then as now, if you preferred TTL SSI/MSI logic. I think > you > > > could do it with a 74LS00 and a 74LS74. That's about $0.25 for the two back > > > then. > > > > Not quite, you need to generate a wait state so IORQ is more than 200 nS > > long (since we lost a cycle generating the RD --> IORQ delay), so you need > > a tri-state output to drive IOCHRDY, and theres that niggling timing > > question with the DART's clock signal. Maybe it would work with the ISA > > clock, maybe not... I think you underestimate how tightly integrated the > > Z80 peripherals are with Z80 bus timing... > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never heard about pal's until about 1990. In some ways the peripheral > > > > > chips are in a really sorry shape. You have vintage slow I/O (2 MHZ?) > > > > > or PC motherboard chip sets. Nothing in between. On my FPGA I can run > > > > > with a 250 ns memory cycle, but need to stretch it to 625 ns for I/O. > > > > > > > The peripheral chips in every 1981-82 PC, PC-Clone, etc, that I've got in > the > > > basement (they're all in one box) are 5 MHz parts without exception. These > were > > > readily available to mfg's who purchased the quantity, but weren't available > in > > > surplus for a while. > > > > > > > > PALs were certainly available earlier, just expensive, > > > > non-reprogramable, and power hungry. I think we used our first > > > > programmable logic in 1986 (Altera EP900s and EP320s - both low power) for > > > > emulation of some PC motherboard stuff in our low power V40 based embedded > > > > PCs. We never used PALs but have used GALs a lot for simple decoders and > > > > random logic. > > > > > > Bipolar logic was, indeed, power-hungry but that was the technology of the > time. > > > EP???' were not bipolar, they were CMOS, and, in the case of the '80's > perhaps > > > even NMOS. I'm not certain about that. GALs became avaiable in '84-85 and > they > > > were expensive for only a short time, quickly grabbing market share when > folks > > > realized that the 16V8 replaced the 16L8, 16R4, 16R6, 16R8, and several > others. > > > Once the programming algorithms were available in the common programmers and > > > there was affordable software with which to use them, and I frequently used > > > conversion software from PAL fuse maps to GAL parts, having developed them > from > > > PALASM intended for bipolar parts, I never bought another bipolar PAL. For > > > obvious reasons, it wasn't long before the GALs had replaced al the 16L/R > parts. > > > > > > > At about $.50 now they are hard to beat. > > > > I think I would do most non-common (probably not Ethernet, USB or > > > > video) I/O these days with FPGAs. Its great to be able to change the > > > > function and pinout with just a downloadble config file. A 100K (Well > > > > maybe 15K if you remove Xilinx inflation factor) SpartanII chip is only > > > > $19.00... > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are several free HDL's in Verilog or VHDL for a fast ethernet > interface > > > that will run entirely in a small Spartan or moderate 4000-series device > costing > > > less than $25, but that's in quantity. Likewise, those can be implemented > in > > > CPLD's for about the same cost. USB is better done in a dedicated (for the > USB) > > > MCU, and at lower cost. Of course you have to license a Device ID. (or > whatever > > > they call it) > > > > > > Unless you have a compelling need to integrate the MAC part of > > Ethernet into a FPGA, FPGA Ethernet is more expensive than an external > > Ethernet chip. Also, It is not possible to integrate the PHY into a FPGA > > at the moment (well maybe with some oddball mixed signal part) and when I > > can get a 100BT Ethernet chip with integrated PHY for less than $5.00, it > > would be silly to use a major portion of a $20 chip for a non standard > > Ethernet interface that doesn't even have any driver support... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > > > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 20:04:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <003601c18768$5621f8a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's one advantage that you can exploit with the WD parts that the NEC parts won't support, and that's formatting with interleaving. The NEC parts seem to be unable to format a diskette with other than strict ordinal sector numbering, while the WD allows you to number them with any offset you like. The result is that an interleaved format optimized for one set of system parameters can still be read by another system without the other system having to be adjusted in any way. Of course it won't be able to read an entire track in one revolution, but it will have the ability to read the diskette without introducing a modified lookup table for sector numbers. I know that doesn't make much difference nowadays, but back when folks used floppies as their main/only storage medium, it impacted performance. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > ajp166 wrote: > > > > > > A newer chip that can still be found is the WD37C65 > > > that will do 125ns easily. Or you could easily find a d765 > > > off an old board or NOS from JDR. > > > > The floppy disk chips have arrived in the post friday. I hope to get > > a chance to pick them monday.I will keep the WD37C65 in mind but > > "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.". I have added wait > > states internally for I/O. > > > > > Allison > > > > > I've built enough to enjoy later parts as I'm old enough to want > > > it done in a lifetime and the older parts meant tons more support > > > parts and the requisite connections. Of the latter, the fewer the > > > better for both buildability and reliability. > > > > Well I managed to stick my serial uart in the FPGA. One good feature > > of 'dumb' hardware is that they can be used for bootstrapping the cpu. > > (Mind you you still need a rather big prom to boot the FPGA but that > > is another story) > > > I guess you are not using Xilinx, but one thing I've noticed lately is the > appearance of large, serial flash EEPROMs. We are using one on them in a > new Xilinx design. The SST part is a 1 Mb chip (128KBytes) 8 pin SOP > package = $1.35. So instead of Xilinx's $4.40 OTP chip we use a 8 pin PIC > and the serial EEPROM for a total of $2.29 and get re-programmability... > > > -- > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 17 20:21:48 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <003601c18768$5621f8a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Yes, you can. Correction. I, and others, can. I shouldn't claim that you can. But Int13 won't. That is NOT the same as the chip not being able. You need to assemble an array of the sector headers that you want. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > There's one advantage that you can exploit with the WD parts that the NEC parts > won't support, and that's formatting with interleaving. The NEC parts seem to > be unable to format a diskette with other than strict ordinal sector numbering, > while the WD allows you to number them with any offset you like. The result is > that an interleaved format optimized for one set of system parameters can still > be read by another system without the other system having to be adjusted in any > way. Of course it won't be able to read an entire track in one revolution, but > it will have the ability to read the diskette without introducing a modified > lookup table for sector numbers. I know that doesn't make much difference > nowadays, but back when folks used floppies as their main/only storage medium, > it impacted performance. > > Dick From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 20:41:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <008801c1876d$80ea2c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Gee! ... and I let those guys at Western convince me you couldn't do that. I've never attempted anyting with Int13, BTW, since I don't hack the PC's. I'm afraid to break something. I've got a '765-based machine I can experiment with, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:21 PM Subject: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Yes, you can. Correction. I, and others, can. I shouldn't claim that > you can. > > But Int13 won't. That is NOT the same as the chip not being able. > > You need to assemble an array of the sector headers that you want. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > There's one advantage that you can exploit with the WD parts that the NEC parts > > won't support, and that's formatting with interleaving. The NEC parts seem to > > be unable to format a diskette with other than strict ordinal sector numbering, > > while the WD allows you to number them with any offset you like. The result is > > that an interleaved format optimized for one set of system parameters can still > > be read by another system without the other system having to be adjusted in any > > way. Of course it won't be able to read an entire track in one revolution, but > > it will have the ability to read the diskette without introducing a modified > > lookup table for sector numbers. I know that doesn't make much difference > > nowadays, but back when folks used floppies as their main/only storage medium, > > it impacted performance. > > > > Dick > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 17 20:59:51 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <008801c1876d$80ea2c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: There ARE many things that the WD will do that the NEC won't, including writing much sooner after the index pulse, IGNORING certain fields in the sector headers when reading, and a track read and write (the NEC has a multi-sector read and write instead of a track R/W) Allison could probably gives us a more comprehensive and authoritative list. On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Gee! ... and I let those guys at Western convince me you couldn't do that. > I've never attempted anyting with Int13, BTW, since I don't hack the PC's. I'm > afraid to break something. I've got a '765-based machine I can experiment with, > though. > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > > Yes, you can. Correction. I, and others, can. I shouldn't claim that > > you can. > > But Int13 won't. That is NOT the same as the chip not being able. > > You need to assemble an array of the sector headers that you want. > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > There's one advantage that you can exploit with the WD parts that the NEC > parts > > > won't support, and that's formatting with interleaving. The NEC parts seem > to > > > be unable to format a diskette with other than strict ordinal sector > numbering, > > > while the WD allows you to number them with any offset you like. The result > is > > > that an interleaved format optimized for one set of system parameters can > still > > > be read by another system without the other system having to be adjusted in > any > > > way. Of course it won't be able to read an entire track in one revolution, > but > > > it will have the ability to read the diskette without introducing a modified > > > lookup table for sector numbers. I know that doesn't make much difference > > > nowadays, but back when folks used floppies as their main/only storage > medium, > > > it impacted performance. > > > Dick From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 20:17:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <003c01c1876a$26fbbdc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What sorts of programmable logic did you have in mind as being around before PALs? PROMs, perhaps? I don't know who invented 'em, but It doesn't matter to me. They were a good idea and were in very wide use by 1979. By that time we frequently inquired as to whether a board used PALs before deciding whether or not to buy the board becuase repair was costly if you had to pay $15 for a $2 PAL, and we'd already learned our lesson with PROMs used in decoders. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:19 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > see below, plz. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 4:12 PM > > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > > > > ajp166 wrote: > > > > > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. > > > > Arg! And here I thought the 8008 was 70's technology. > > > > > > Well more into the 80s since the PAL was invented in 1978... > > > > > I've stumbled over a 1978 databook from MMI this weekend a couple of times, that > > suggests the 16L/R/X/A series is new product in 1978, but there were quite a few > > PALs that predate them. Signetics had a different sort of device than MMI, that > > also goes back to the '70's. > > There were earlier programmable logic parts, but the PAL was invented in > in 1978 by Birkner and Chua... > > > > > > > > > > Actually thats not true. BY 1981 you have peripherals in the 125ns read > > > > > write timing range. Then again Z80 at that time was just hinting at 6mhz > > > > > so z80 peripherals were of an according spped for that cpu. However, > > > > > other parts were faster and often far cheaper. > > > > > Where serial I/O is concerned, that being a laboriously slow process, speed is of little interest. The problem, of course, was that while the Z80B was "out" in '80-'81, the 'B'-series peripherals were not. > > > > > > > > > I still favor the simple dumb uart chip. TR1602?. I like things than > > > > you hit reset, it starts ... not like the classic star-trek computers > > > > that always go down. Usually when you need them. > > > > > I always liked them, too, except for the space they required, including the > > external clock generator(s). > > > > -- > > > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > > > > > > > > > Can you still get TR1602's? I remember building something with them (maybe > > > it was a 1402) and 3341 FIFO's in the 70's > > > > > I remember an ad not long ago that listed, among other things, the 1602. I've > > not seen the 3341 for quite a long while, since there are CMOS versions. > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 20:21:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <3C1D87E7.5E1A84E6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006001c1876a$c5cb4240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I may have one, but I roached up my set of PDF's not long ago, and may have to reacquire it. Try freetradezone.com (if you can still get free data) to see if they've got it. If not, after the holidays I can look for it. Worst case, I may have to scan my early data sheet for you. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 10:51 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > ajp166 wrote: > > A newer chip that can still be found is the WD37C65 > > that will do 125ns easily. Or you could easily find a d765 > > off an old board or NOS from JDR. > Do you know of a WD37C65 data sheet on the web? > > > Allison > > I've built enough to enjoy later parts as I'm old enough to want > > it done in a lifetime and the older parts meant tons more support > > parts and the requisite connections. Of the latter, the fewer the > > better for both buildability and reliability. > Hmm what ever happened to sockets and repairable stuff. > > > I guess you are not using Xilinx, but one thing I've noticed lately is the > > appearance of large, serial flash EEPROMs. We are using one on them in a > > new Xilinx design. The SST part is a 1 Mb chip (128KBytes) 8 pin SOP > > package = $1.35. So instead of Xilinx's $4.40 OTP chip we use a 8 pin PIC > > and the serial EEPROM for a total of $2.29 and get re-programmability... > > A good solution but this is a one-shot project so price is not a major > problem > here. One possible option is going to quick-logic's FPGA's and the web > design > setup. I think you can get a free FPGA programed under that system for > R&D. > At the time I got my FPGA kit they did not have a Xilinx fpga kit the > size > I needed ( 800? Logic blocks ) or free Xilinx software. > > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 20:27:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <007001c1876b$8a41c0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's a Western Digital part, and the SMsC people don't have a sheet on it either. You can buy them from Rochester Electronics, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 5:27 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > From: Ben Franchuk > > > >> that will do 125ns easily. Or you could easily find a d765 > >> off an old board or NOS from JDR. > >Do you know of a WD37C65 data sheet on the web? > > > Check SMC for it. > > >> parts and the requisite connections. Of the latter, the fewer the > >> better for both buildability and reliability. > >Hmm what ever happened to sockets and repairable stuff. > > > I hate sockets and try to avoid them, I've had equipment that > didn't use the machined pin sockets and most all had to be > rebuilt sans sockets at one point or another. > > > > >> package = $1.35. So instead of Xilinx's $4.40 OTP chip we use a 8 pin > PIC > >> and the serial EEPROM for a total of $2.29 and get > re-programmability... > > > >A good solution but this is a one-shot project so price is not a major > >problem > > > A lousy one if you have a raft of TTL and few FPGAs. ;) > I have a few of the Lattice and Xilinx tools, older ones and the synario > stuff too. I just dont get all that excited about it. I've designed a > cpu > and built it years ago, it out of my system and not worth repeating. > Any cpu I'd do would need software and that means it would likely > be a copy of something... likely something I have. > > Allison > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 17 04:35:16 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> <007001c1876b$8a41c0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1DCA64.2130FE1B@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > It's a Western Digital part, and the SMsC people don't have a sheet on it > either. You can buy them from Rochester Electronics, however. > > Dick If it was replacing the part that would be no problem. However not having a datasheet sheet makes designing impossible. Unless the have a built in fifo or don't need tweaking (I have no scope here) I will stick with the parts I have. Thank you for this information. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 20:38:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> <3C1DB114.9E0D2B9B@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <007a01c1876d$0fad86a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> "Ben Franchuk" wrote: ... > I also wonder about FPGA's when you can't fit a 6502 in one! > 't seems to me that there are several free HDL's of the 650x core out there, and, since they're small, there are several FPGA's into which I understand you can fit not only four or so cores, but the entire addressable memory space for each of them in there as well. I've not tried that ... but ... The 650x core is apparently known to be about 3300 gates, if you can go by their putative gate count. However, you can check 'em out for yourself. Google will turn up several. As you might expect, the Z80 core is quite a bit larger and runs somewhat slower. I don't think anyone's done the 650x core "right" yet, because most of the HDL's still are too big. I remember the trade (~1976-77) mag's telling us that the 6502 was <1/4 the size of the Z80 though they were in the same technology. The only way I can see that happening, aside from the vastly reduced internal resources that the 650x has, is a much slicker design. Of course the end user doesn't benefit from that "slick" design, but if the thing's in mass production, the cost reflects silicon by the pound, so a smaller chip would cost less, which it did, while yielding more profit, which it apparently also did. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:47 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > ajp166 wrote: > > Check SMC for it. > SMC? It's SMsC, BTW. > > I hate sockets and try to avoid them, I've had equipment that > > didn't use the machined pin sockets and most all had to be > > rebuilt sans sockets at one point or another. > In this case I plan to use good sockets. > > A lousy one if you have a raft of TTL and few FPGAs. ;) > > All the TTL is in the FPGA.:) > Most of the TTL used is simple buffering or decoding. > > > I have a few of the Lattice and Xilinx tools, older ones and the synario > > stuff too. I just dont get all that excited about it. I've designed a > > cpu and built it years ago, it out of my system and not worth repeating. > > The whole point of the cpu I designed, was because I am not happy > with 8 bit micro's, RISC machines, or INTEL. Now what I wonder about > is people that put a 6502 in a FPGA while you still can buy the real > thing? > I also wonder about FPGA's when you can't fit a 6502 in one! > > > Any cpu I'd do would need software and that means it would likely > > be a copy of something... likely something I have. > > I can guarantee you don't have a 12/24 bit cpu like mine. ( Not that you > would > want one :) ) > > Allison > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 21:55:28 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <002b01c18778$78d40270$61ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >> rebuilt sans sockets at one point or another. >In this case I plan to use good sockets. >> A lousy one if you have a raft of TTL and few FPGAs. ;) > >All the TTL is in the FPGA.:) >Most of the TTL used is simple buffering or decoding. Ah, don'tcha think I know that? ;) Then again I have enough loose TTL to make a 24bit stretch PDP-8 with two sets of spares and a full compliment of IO. I've done my stint as a hardware designer analog DC to UHF and digital. >The whole point of the cpu I designed, was because I am not happy >with 8 bit micro's, RISC machines, or INTEL. Now what I wonder about >is people that put a 6502 in a FPGA while you still can buy the real >thing? >I also wonder about FPGA's when you can't fit a 6502 in one! Use a bigger FPGA... Thats why hammers come from small 4oz all the way to to 10 pounds! >I can guarantee you don't have a 12/24 bit cpu like mine. ( Not that you >would want one :) ) Been there done that. Mine was 2901 based Z80 clone with hybrid uCode wide bus and extented instruction set... Still didnt run any thing useful on it, too big, too hot and far to weird. It was a good learning tool depite all that. Allison From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Dec 17 21:50:28 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011217225028.01df6730@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:28 PM 12/17/01 -0600, you wrote: >Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better tolerance for >boring tedious work while sitting on their butts for long periods of time. The other side of that is that they can concentrate better and longer, right? You just did us males a dis-favor, especially male surgeons, male artists, ... carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Sun Dec 16 18:00:41 2001 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: irc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 15 Dec 2001 07:39 am, Golemancd@aol.com wrote: > anyone know the irc channel by any chance #classiccmp on irc.openprojects.net I'm normally there during university termtimes, during holidays I'm not. Dan - -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBPB01q5dDUnce+EgsEQJGoACgs8jb2ZENCui5SHpgKSoR4MX74AwAniAC 27PyvTIapeoG9vNIPPXzpv81 =5v3d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From djg at drs-esg.com Sun Dec 16 14:57:38 2001 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:16 2005 Subject: Core pictures (was cleaning 8/A) Message-ID: <200112162057.PAA28263@drs-esg.com> >From: Chad Fernandez > >I've never seen core in real life...... how small are the wires? > My 8/E 4k core looked to be about 40 gauge. The 8/E also had an 8k core and the 8/A a 16k core. They would be even smaller. Here is my pictures of the PDP-8/E 4kx12 core board. http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8em/pics/g619a-300.shtml?small Closeup of a small section letting you see the wires (select large size to really see them). http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8em/pics/g619a-bit.shtml?small David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 17 21:56:49 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yep, another primary consideration! -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 8:55 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: was "how to clean".. How did they > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > > Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. > And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better > at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better tolerance for > boring tedious work while sitting on their butts for long periods of time. And keeping in mind that we are talking about IBM and the like, they would hire women for it because they could get away with paying them less. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 22:02:41 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <003801c1877a$93bcd330$61ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >won't support, and that's formatting with interleaving. The NEC parts seem to >be unable to format a diskette with other than strict ordinal sector numbering, Obviously you know not how the part works. I used to put sectors down on floppies with physical skew for CPM using 765/9266/37C65. It was dirt simple. When the 765 and clones write they want CHRN, All you need to do is make R the sector number what ever you want it to be then feed it to the FDC when doing a format track. What's difficult about that? Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 17 05:28:00 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> <3C1DB114.9E0D2B9B@jetnet.ab.ca> <007a01c1876d$0fad86a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1DD6C0.1D5571DC@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > The 650x core is apparently known to be about 3300 gates, if you can go by their > putative gate count. However, you can check 'em out for yourself. Google will > turn up several. As you might expect, the Z80 core is quite a bit larger and > runs somewhat slower. I don't think anyone's done the 650x core "right" yet, > because most of the HDL's still are too big. Lets say 3K gates. Lets also define a small FPGA is one that fits in a 84 pin PLCC. The FPGA is used just for the CPU - no ram , rom , or I/O devices. Looking at free-6502 as a guide. http://www.free-ip.com/6502/ it is really hard to tell just how many CLB's are used, but are just over the limit of what fits in small FPGA is what it looks like. > I remember the trade (~1976-77) mag's telling us that the 6502 was <1/4 the size > of the Z80 though they were in the same technology. The only way I can see that > happening, aside from the vastly reduced internal resources that the 650x has, > is a much slicker design. I suspect this is because 1) All registers but the PC are 8 bit. 2) Instructions grouped into fewer internal states per clock. I think a z80 instruction could have 17+ states where a 6502 used up to 5 states. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 22:27:36 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they Message-ID: <006501c1877c$aff2bd60$61ee9a8d@ajp166> In reality it was far different than that. Women would work for lower wage than men doing a tedious task that was fairly skill intensive. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Russ Blakeman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, December 17, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: RE: was "how to clean".. How did they >Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better tolerance for >boring tedious work while sitting on their butts for long periods of time. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail >Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:25 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: was "how to clean".. How did they > > >On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > >> Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. > >And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better >at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- >-- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 17 05:38:08 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: 8008/SCELBI Emulator Now Available for Testing References: <20011218032052.50486.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C1DD920.F165C5E5@jetnet.ab.ca> Loboyko Steve wrote: > > Recently, I've embarked on building modern copies of > microcomputer systems utilizing "the big three" micros > avilable at the dawn of the personal computing era - > namely, the 8008, the 8080, and the 6800. > It consists of a READ.ME (please read it), the ZIP (an > installer), and a patch that consists of a newer EXE > which should replace the one installed by the > installer. Is Source avaiable? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From allain at panix.com Mon Dec 17 22:36:33 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they References: Message-ID: <008701c1877d$92722360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better > tolerance for boring tedious work while.... (snip). Maybe its a good time to spring this one. I had heard that core stringing was so demanding that one company offered full retirement benefits for people who hung in there for x=?=6 years or so. John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 17 05:55:19 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <002b01c18778$78d40270$61ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C1DDD27.BF660157@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > Use a bigger FPGA... Thats why hammers come from small 4oz all > the way to to 10 pounds! I refuse to use a socket that is more than $10. I like small hammers - less problems when you hit your thumb. I am also conservative - why use something bigger if you don't need it. The other design goal was to have CPU designed about the same size and speed of 8086/6809 era chips. Since I have no way of having a chip of 80's technology made I have to limit the design to what looks realistic for that era. > Been there done that. Mine was 2901 based Z80 clone with hybrid uCode > wide bus and extented instruction set... Still didnt run any thing useful > on it, too big, too hot and far to weird. It was a good learning tool > depite all that. This is what this is -- a hobby/ learning tool -- If it was $$$ making I would have to move to Seattle. :) > Allison -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 22:33:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <007501c1877e$91325af0$61ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) >There ARE many things that the WD will do that the NEC won't, including >writing much sooner after the index pulse, IGNORING certain fields in the 765A writes or read sonner than base 765 and the 37c65 even shorter. It doesnt ignore fields in a multisector read/write however if the sectors are written with a interleave it will also keep things in numerical order. Add to that a full cylinder read does not bring all the non data crap that formatted media requires to marks all the data spaces. The real beauty of that is if you have real DMA you can fire it up and read a whole cylinder and all your buffer has is neatly ordered data if the read was successful. That latter feature is nice if your doing a caching scheme. >Allison could probably gives us a more comprehensive and authoritative >list. Yes I can. Allison From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Dec 18 00:27:35 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218002121.00a7cba0@127.0.0.1> That's not being sexist or rude - it's FACT. I used to work for a company that made meter movements - very tedious work. The entire room where this assembly and repair was conducted was full of women. They worked all day long using magnifying lenses and lamps. The portion of the manufacturing area that I was assigned to had to be temporarily moved to this room, and we were the only men there. All day long these women would work and discuss husbands/boyfriends, soap operas, and gossip about everyone in town. Originally, men were used for this kind of work and too many of them went nuts after a while. There were women working in this room that had been around for a few years, with some having 10-20 years of experience in this particular job. It's been proven that women can handle tedious, meticulous jobs day in and day out better than the average man. After seeing what those women in the meter room did all day long, it was easy for me to see just how quickly a guy would go bonkers doing that kind of work. Just a personal observation..... - Matt At 08:28 PM 12/17/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better tolerance for >boring tedious work while sitting on their butts for long periods of time. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail >Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:25 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: was "how to clean".. How did they > > >On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > > > Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. > >And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better >at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 17 22:49:06 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <008001c1877f$57630cb0$61ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >I suspect this is because > >1) All registers but the PC are 8 bit. Total number of bits including storage for status were about 1/3 that of Z80 (208). >2) Instructions grouped into fewer internal states per clock. Yes, and instructions were simpler in construction. Some Z80 instructions like the block moves and searches (ex LDIR) and a complete set of IO instuctions (not present on 6502) made for a great difference in size and complexity of the instruction set. > I think a z80 instruction could have 17+ states where a >6502 used up to 5 states. Actually Z80 went as far as 22states. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 17 06:47:12 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008001c1877f$57630cb0$61ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C1DE950.AFB1276F@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > Yes, and instructions were simpler in construction. Some Z80 > instructions like the block moves and searches (ex LDIR) and > a complete set of IO instuctions (not present on 6502) made > for a great difference in size and complexity of the instruction set. As of 2001 what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like the rabbit. I really have not been following the 8 bit CPU's. Other than the APPLE III? did anybody else use a 6502 with extended addressing. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 23:44:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <000901c18787$04ed9ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:44 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > > > The PAL16R/L/Xnnn series were quite a bit less costly, faster, and more > > > > straightforward in their application than the Altera parts, however, costing > > <$2 > > > > in production lots. > > > > > > I think you are missing the point, In 1981 PALS were expensive... > > > > > Yes, they were, but the 8250 cost WAY more back then than, say, a 2651 with an > > external '393 counter. The makers of most of the add-on I/O boards I've got > > lying about seem to have found PALs cost effective, BTW. That said, I believe > > that I pointed out that the same task was readily achievable with less than > > half-a-dollar's worth of TTL SSI logic. I think this discussion is exhausted. > > > > The discussion of the SIO/DART arose from your apparent unawareness of the > > multi-channel serial devices that several manufacturers were pushing before the > > PC was even a reality. The fact that you don't like the interface requirements > > of the DART/SIO for the ISA environment is clear, > > I am perfectly aware of multiple channel serial chips, we used one in our > Sprite CPM machine in 1978... > > And its not just that I dont like the DART in a ISA environment, I dont > think it even makes sense to use it as you suggested. I doubt that > there is a single add-on card that uses a DART for the ISA bus... > > and, while I think it's at > > least as big a piece of rubbish as is the SIO, along with the other Z80 > > peripherals, The 8250 isn't any better or worse for the ISA, IMHO, because it > > doesn't take any more logic to interface the thing. > > Takes much less logic, only a decode > ...and you have to generate an address strobe, and you have to deal with the setup and hold time issues, which the bus doesn't. ... pretty much the same as any other device costing a third as much. Of course it depends on whether you're satisfied with "getting by" or would prefer to meet the spec's. > > Just because YOU don't like > > I had to buy 8250's to populate multi-port serial boards for various S-100 > > systems back then and was acutely aware of the cost of an 8250 as opposed to a > > less generously provisioned device. It had lots of parallel bits, that some > > folks used, but I never needed them. > > I pressume thats why IBM chose it since it supported a full set of Modem > control lines... > That would be a reason all right, though the 2681 had about as many, IIRC. > That's not what the extra parallel port bits did, is it? I thought the handshakes were still automatic. ... I've not had to hook up a serial device for so long I can't remember the specifics. Oh well... we always tie the cable back to handshake with itself anyway, and rely on the X-on/X-off protocol ... > From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Dec 18 00:33:13 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <000901c18787$04ed9ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: > > > ...and you have to generate an address strobe, Wrong! The ISA bus is not multiplexed (well for I/O anyway) the 8250 adress strobe is simple grounded and you have to deal with the > setup and hold time issues, Wrong! Easily met with 4.77 or 8 Mhz bus speed which the bus doesn't. ... pretty much the same as > any other device costing a third as much. Of course it depends on whether > you're satisfied with "getting by" or would prefer to meet the spec's. 8250 meets the bus specs no problem... > > > > Just because YOU don't like > > > > I had to buy 8250's to populate multi-port serial boards for various S-100 > > > systems back then and was acutely aware of the cost of an 8250 as opposed to > a > > > less generously provisioned device. It had lots of parallel bits, that some > > > folks used, but I never needed them. > > > > I pressume thats why IBM chose it since it supported a full set of Modem > > control lines... > > > That would be a reason all right, though the 2681 had about as many, IIRC. > > > That's not what the extra parallel port bits did, is it? I thought the > handshakes were still automatic. ... I've not had to hook up a serial device for > so long I can't remember the specifics. Oh well... we always tie the > cable back to handshake with itself anyway, and rely on the X-on/X-off protocol > ... > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 23:50:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> <007001c1876b$8a41c0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1DCA64.2130FE1B@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001501c18787$e7d64ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:35 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > It's a Western Digital part, and the SMsC people don't have a sheet on it > > either. You can buy them from Rochester Electronics, however. > I mentioned this only because SMC (later SMsC) made licensed replicas of most of the WD FDC parts and sold their all-digital technology to Western. > > > Dick > If it was replacing the part that would be no problem. However > not having a datasheet sheet makes designing impossible. Unless > the have a built in fifo or don't need tweaking (I have no scope here) > I will stick with the parts I have. Thank you for this information. There's nothing to tweak, since it's all-digital, and, eventually, but not this week, I can probably send you a scan or a PDF of the datasheet. The original I have is a preliminary, but I might still have a datasheet from the ChipCenter or Freetradezone. What I really like is that there is no need at all for cable drivers, since the interface lines are intended for direct connection. All you have to do is synchronize your CPU/DMAC to the data acquisition loop and then roll. If you're slow, you may want to use wait-states, but if you have no dificulty getting around a 13.5 microsecond loop (the first pass only) and 16 microseconds per byte, then you're in. > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 23:57:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <003801c1877a$93bcd330$61ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <003301c18788$de42b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yup! That's already been pointed out ... I made the choice to use the Western MFM-capable part back in '78 and never looked back. I let someone else tell me why, but I never regretted it. The process with the Western part is apparently the same, though there was something critical that the NEC part didn't do. Maybe it had to do with altering the gap lengths in order to accomodate an extra sector, or some such. Of course, possible or not, I never ended up doing that either. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 9:02 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > From: Richard Erlacher > >won't support, and that's formatting with interleaving. The NEC parts > seem to > >be unable to format a diskette with other than strict ordinal sector > numbering, > > > Obviously you know not how the part works. I used to put sectors down on > floppies with physical skew for CPM using 765/9266/37C65. It was dirt > simple. > When the 765 and clones write they want CHRN, All you need to do is make > R the sector number what ever you want it to be then feed it to the FDC > when > doing a format track. What's difficult about that? > > Allison > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 18 00:06:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> <3C1DB114.9E0D2B9B@jetnet.ab.ca> <007a01c1876d$0fad86a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1DD6C0.1D5571DC@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003901c1878a$23cda1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I may have to go out looking for a different one ... that's not the one I was thinking of when I wrote the item below, as that one spelled it out in terms of fitting in a specific Xilinx and in a particular Altera part as well as the associated clock rates. The ones that come in a PLCC-84 are still pretty small, though. Frankly, I'd prefer a much larger array in a PLCC-44 since one doesn't need pile of I/O, but the die size makes 'em use a big package to accomodate whatever sort of lead frame or whatever they use now. BTW, if you think you can buy that 65C02 from WDC any more, good luck, as I've never even been able to get them to quote on their fast part. They claim it runs at 20 MHz, but spec it for 14. Now 14 is pretty fast ... If you want fast, though, Dallas is sampling their 50MIPs 8051 part (89C420). They've redesigned the core so it uses one clock tick per instruction cycle, and most of the instructions that operate internally use only one cycle. The timer and external memory accesses, however, can be slowed down so (1) you don't have to use a 16-bit timer as a baud-rate generator, and (2) you can use slow external devices if you need to. It has promise! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:28 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The 650x core is apparently known to be about 3300 gates, if you can go by their > > putative gate count. However, you can check 'em out for yourself. Google will > > turn up several. As you might expect, the Z80 core is quite a bit larger and > > runs somewhat slower. I don't think anyone's done the 650x core "right" yet, > > because most of the HDL's still are too big. > > Lets say 3K gates. Lets also define a small FPGA is one that fits in a > 84 pin > PLCC. The FPGA is used just for the CPU - no ram , rom , or I/O devices. > Looking at free-6502 as a guide. http://www.free-ip.com/6502/ > it is really hard to tell just how many CLB's are used, but are just > over the > limit of what fits in small FPGA is what it looks like. > > > I remember the trade (~1976-77) mag's telling us that the 6502 was <1/4 the size > > of the Z80 though they were in the same technology. The only way I can see that > > happening, aside from the vastly reduced internal resources that the 650x has, > > is a much slicker design. > I suspect this is because > > 1) All registers but the PC are 8 bit. > 2) Instructions grouped into fewer internal states per clock. > I think a z80 instruction could have 17+ states where a > 6502 used up to 5 states. > > > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 18 00:10:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <002b01c18778$78d40270$61ee9a8d@ajp166> <3C1DDD27.BF660157@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004501c1878a$c2a64e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OOOH! I heard that. I recently priced the hardware needed to house a pretty large FPGA in a BGA on a wirewrap board and found the cost ends up over $1k for the entire assembly. What's more, the attachment of the socket is quite permanent, so if you don't like the adapter, too bad. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:55 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > ajp166 wrote: > > Use a bigger FPGA... Thats why hammers come from small 4oz all > > the way to to 10 pounds! > > I refuse to use a socket that is more than $10. I like small hammers > - less problems when you hit your thumb. The PLCC-84 sockets still cost under $2. I just got a couple last week. Yeah! Like less blood. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 18 00:31:54 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> <3C1DB114.9E0D2B9B@jetnet.ab.ca> <007a01c1876d$0fad86a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1DD6C0.1D5571DC@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001301c1878d$afaa5a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I went back and took a look at the site you cited and found that he'd also put some specifics with differnt gate array technologies/geometries in the mix. The numbers are really quite impressive. The 10Kgate version that runs 166 MHz looks good, but I wonder how close to real that really is. I'd be really interested in how much smaller the core can be made by useing the ALU to do the address arithmetic rather than using counters. I'd also be interested in how big the array gets if you fiddle with the architecture enough that you have a different address and data space, i.e. a modified Harvard. If the instruction word were large enough to incoporate the index registers in every instruction, just no-op them when they're not needed, it would make a bigger core, but I believe all the instructions would then be single cycle. That's the two extremes. The latter method would add latency but wouldn't take a performance hit. It would mean multiple adder/subtractors, though the primary ALU wouldn't have to be replicated. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:28 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The 650x core is apparently known to be about 3300 gates, if you can go by their > > putative gate count. However, you can check 'em out for yourself. Google will > > turn up several. As you might expect, the Z80 core is quite a bit larger and > > runs somewhat slower. I don't think anyone's done the 650x core "right" yet, > > because most of the HDL's still are too big. > > Lets say 3K gates. Lets also define a small FPGA is one that fits in a > 84 pin > PLCC. The FPGA is used just for the CPU - no ram , rom , or I/O devices. > Looking at free-6502 as a guide. http://www.free-ip.com/6502/ > it is really hard to tell just how many CLB's are used, but are just > over the > limit of what fits in small FPGA is what it looks like. > > > I remember the trade (~1976-77) mag's telling us that the 6502 was <1/4 the size > > of the Z80 though they were in the same technology. The only way I can see that > > happening, aside from the vastly reduced internal resources that the 650x has, > > is a much slicker design. > I suspect this is because > > 1) All registers but the PC are 8 bit. > 2) Instructions grouped into fewer internal states per clock. > I think a z80 instruction could have 17+ states where a > 6502 used up to 5 states. > > > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From allain at panix.com Mon Dec 17 22:57:56 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: Waaay UT (undertopic): W9x Thumbnail association. Message-ID: <00f501c18780$8f6f8a60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> This is pretty bad, but somewhat important right now. Anybody know how to associate .jpg files to the IE thumbnail viewer (mini previews) in W98? I don't want to embarrass anyone so you can contact me off list. Its bad enough I have to admit using it. John A. From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 23:12:28 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: 8008/SCELBI Emulator Now Available for Testing In-Reply-To: <3C1DD920.F165C5E5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20011218051228.50129.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> Well, the source of SCELBAL is in the listing...the source of the emulator is not presently available, mostly because I do this for a living, and I don't think the source code is at a level of quality presentable without personal embarassment! But, it works well... --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > Loboyko Steve wrote: > > > > Recently, I've embarked on building modern copies > of > > microcomputer systems utilizing "the big three" > micros > > avilable at the dawn of the personal computing era > - > > namely, the 8008, the 8080, and the 6800. > > > It consists of a READ.ME (please read it), the ZIP > (an > > installer), and a patch that consists of a newer > EXE > > which should replace the one installed by the > > installer. > Is Source avaiable? > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From michael at unixiron.org Mon Dec 17 23:38:47 2001 From: michael at unixiron.org (Michael Kukat) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: DEC Cable? In-Reply-To: <20011217233927.27295.qmail@web10407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello, On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Russell Pavlicek wrote: > Michael's reply is not entirely correct. > > I have access to a VS3100 which is connected to a > non-color monitor using an RGB cable. It uses the > Green lead as I recall. Then either the cable or the VAXstation is modified. Or it has a color framebuffer on a mono monitor, which also works this way. But it is absolutely impossible to get the signal from the monochrome onboard framebuffer out of the green signal wire without hardware modification. ...Michael -- visit http://www.bsdfans.org/ Home network powered by: NetBSD OpenBSD FreeBSD Solaris HP-UX IRIX AIX MUNIX Tru64 Ultrix VMS SINIX Dolphin_Unix OpenStep MacOS From rcpavlicek at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 00:07:24 2001 From: rcpavlicek at yahoo.com (Russell Pavlicek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: DEC Cable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011218060724.15355.qmail@web10408.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, that's it. It's color video out connected to a monochrome monitor by using only the Green line. -- R --- Michael Kukat wrote: > Hello, > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Russell Pavlicek wrote: > > Michael's reply is not entirely correct. > > > > I have access to a VS3100 which is connected to a > > non-color monitor using an RGB cable. It uses the > > Green lead as I recall. > > Then either the cable or the VAXstation is modified. > Or it has a color > framebuffer on a mono monitor, which also works this > way. But it is absolutely > impossible to get the signal from the monochrome > onboard framebuffer out of the > green signal wire without hardware modification. > > ...Michael > > -- > visit http://www.bsdfans.org/ Home network powered > by: NetBSD OpenBSD FreeBSD > Solaris HP-UX IRIX AIX MUNIX Tru64 Ultrix VMS SINIX > Dolphin_Unix OpenStep MacOS > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 17 23:42:09 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) Message-ID: <20011218054413.LQKG22064.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Douglas Quebbeman > The difference between "real" holidays and "made up" Holidays > seems to be: if the Holiday was "made up" before you were born, > then it's real (like Mother's Day, which was instituted by > President Woodrow Wilson); if it was made up in your lifetime, > then it's "not real, just made up." I based my statement upon information gleaned from conversations with my customers, 80% of which are black. Most of them think that Kwanzaa was "made up" by retailers in order to get their money. Some have told me that they resent the "social engineering" aspect of Kwanzaa. Here in the South, there seems to be very little support of or identification with this event among African-Americans. > January 1 was "made up" into New Years Day by an act of > fiat; New Years Day used to be April 1. When and how did this happen? > I believe "Father's Day" was "made up" in the 50s... > I hope the pattern is clear... Kwanzaa is as valid > a Holiday as any. For those who celebrate it, I'm sure this is true. It's just that I haven't met many of them . . . Glen 0/0 From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Dec 18 00:22:28 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) Message-ID: <200112180622.fBI6MT458299@ns2.ezwind.net> >I based my statement upon information gleaned from conversations with my >customers, 80% of which are black. Most of them think that Kwanzaa was >"made up" by retailers in order to get their money. Some have told me that >they resent the "social engineering" aspect of Kwanzaa. Here in the South, >there seems to be very little support of or identification with this event >among African-Americans. Oh, you need to come up here, and visit the heavily black neighborhoods of Jersey City (conviently, right where my wife grew up)... there, Kwanzaa is a big deal, and it has NOTHING to do with retailers getting their money. It has everything to do with their not celebrating christmas because that is whitey's holiday, and crackers are the enemy (their terms, not mine... I get "whitey"... I get "white bread"... but cracker?!? I would ask when visiting my inlaws... but I would just get my ass kicked, or worse, shot). As to the REAL reason for Kwanzaa, I have no idea, but I do know, around here it is entirely a racial thing, and the only people that really seem to take it seriously are the inner city high crime area Afican-Americans... which unfortuantly gives the whole thing a bad notion up here. Its a shame really, as I am sure there was a real reason for it, but like many other things, it has been badly perverted by a very very select group of people who decided to use it for their own agenda. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 17 23:53:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: Message-ID: <002101c18788$4911f460$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There had to be some advantage, though I probably never capitalized on it myself, but I always got along with the WD chips just fine, hence never designed in a NEC part even once. The earlier Western parts had some really long data hold time requirements that were somewhat painful, but once I understood how to make 'em work ... the rest was duck soup. Western had 'em working when I got there and I didn't break 'em. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:59 PM Subject: Re: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > There ARE many things that the WD will do that the NEC won't, including > writing much sooner after the index pulse, IGNORING certain fields in the > sector headers when reading, and a track read and write (the NEC has a > multi-sector read and write instead of a track R/W) > > Allison could probably gives us a more comprehensive and authoritative > list. > > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Gee! ... and I let those guys at Western convince me you couldn't do that. > > I've never attempted anyting with Int13, BTW, since I don't hack the PC's. I'm > > afraid to break something. I've got a '765-based machine I can experiment with, > > though. > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > > > Yes, you can. Correction. I, and others, can. I shouldn't claim that > > > you can. > > > But Int13 won't. That is NOT the same as the chip not being able. > > > You need to assemble an array of the sector headers that you want. > > > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > There's one advantage that you can exploit with the WD parts that the NEC > > parts > > > > won't support, and that's formatting with interleaving. The NEC parts seem > > to > > > > be unable to format a diskette with other than strict ordinal sector > > numbering, > > > > while the WD allows you to number them with any offset you like. The result > > is > > > > that an interleaved format optimized for one set of system parameters can > > still > > > > be read by another system without the other system having to be adjusted in > > any > > > > way. Of course it won't be able to read an entire track in one revolution, > > but > > > > it will have the ability to read the diskette without introducing a modified > > > > lookup table for sector numbers. I know that doesn't make much difference > > > > nowadays, but back when folks used floppies as their main/only storage > > medium, > > > > it impacted performance. > > > > Dick > > From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Dec 17 23:59:20 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: TI Calc and PS/1 printer Message-ID: <200112180559.fBI5xM457643@ns2.ezwind.net> I finally got a chance to get to the new thrift store that opened near me (Salvation Army). I got a good deal on a 28.8 external Mac modem (needed one for my nephew, 56k would have been nicer, but for $1 I can't argue). While I was there, I saw two items that might be of interest to some of you. 1: Texas Instruments calculator "Standard Business Analyst" in a wallet case with a small guide book. They want $8 for it. 2: IBM PS/1 printer (dot matrix it looked like, but I didn't crouch down to really check it out). They want $20 IIRC. I will be going back there in a few days to see what the price is on an Apple Thermal Transfer Printer (I have never heard of such a beast, but since it carries a DB25 connector, I assume it is Apple II series stuff, platinum, so it is later II). It didn't have a price tag on it, and it seems they have a policy that when something has no tag, they remove it from inventory to be retagged and put back out on an unspecified day (I guess to keep people from pulling tags to try to get things cheaper). If anyone has an interest in the calculator or IBM printer (or the Apple one, but specify what your max price for it is... I myself won't pay more than $10), I can pick them up when I go back (and for the apple printer, if they want more than $10 but less than someone else's max, I can pick it up for them). Let me know -chris From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 18 00:04:58 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <20011218060120.MOSO11573.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Christopher Smith > I'm not saying that to get an entry level job in the field you should need > to know the machine architecture like the back of your hand, but you should > at least know the basics and be willing to learn the rest. The operative term here being "willing to learn the rest." Too many degree-holders which I've met seem to believe that they "know it all" and don't need to learn any more than they already know. As a consequence, they ask the same questions again and again. I'm of the old school -- don't go to your boss with a problem, go to your boss with a *solution.* I make it a point to learn *something* every day. Keeps my brain from drying out . . . Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 18 00:14:29 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <20011218061313.MFDV26411.imf28bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Sellam Ismail > Programmers were, are, and will > always be lazy and impatient. Man alive -- I always knew I was stupid for putting in all those 80-hour weeks, but lazy? And impatient??? Glen 0/0 From hansp at aconit.org Tue Dec 18 02:11:42 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: Paper Tape Fun References: <20011218032618.24640.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C1EFA3E.6080601@aconit.org> Loboyko Steve wrote: > I recently acquired (out of desperation) a DSI paper > tape punch/reader on ePay (at a reasonable price, but > not guaranteed to work). I cleaned it up, oiled it > here and there, and after puzzling out the RS-232, got > it running punching Mylar fine. To test it, I wrote a > Windows program to test it out with; the program lets > you type in a phrase, looks up the ASCII, and prints > the letters out on the tape in a 7x5 matrix format, > upper and lower case. I'm pretty sure that there were > programs that ran on mainframes to do this sort of > thing. Useless, but kind of fun Not so useless. I've seen that technique used to label tapes. A little more professional than a handscrawled name. -- hbp From ubertechnoid at home.com Tue Dec 18 02:18:30 2001 From: ubertechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:17 2005 Subject: Shall I open it, or does someone want it.... References: Message-ID: <001801c1879c$942ed670$3700a8c0@benchbox> No, I think that was Kilobaud Microcomputing. ;-) Regards, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Schulman" To: Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 10:06 PM Subject: Re: Shall I open it, or does someone want it.... > Too Cool! This must be the issue where a 14-year old Woz discusses puberty, girls, and how he is going to > invent the Apple computer in seven years. Wow! > > I'd auction it on eBay. > > Louis > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:15:37 -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: > > #I have December 1967 inCider, still wrapped in it's plastic > #bag. I wonder if anyone is collecting magazines and would > #find this more collectable because it still has the plastic. > # > #I just want to read inCiders, especially those with articles > #about the pre-GS apple II machines. > # > #Anyone wanna trade me? > # > #Anyone got inCider or nibble magazines they want to get > #rid of? > # > #I am in the San Jose, CA area- we can arrange to meet. > # > > From lgwalker at mts.net Tue Dec 18 02:26:25 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: My Last Day Of Finds in MN In-Reply-To: <200112160325.TAA08750@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: from Doc at "Dec 15, 1 08:47:31 pm" Message-ID: <3C1EA951.22960.49828ED@localhost> Well, they aren't that common either. I still have to use a joystick with GEOS despite the multitude of Commodore stuff I have. They come up occasionally on E-pay and at some point I'll have to bite the bullet unless someone has one to trade. Lawrence > > > 3. Commodore Model 1351 mouse > > > > Um, is this something one should grab if one saw it? (Considering that > > one owns no Commodore stuff, but like trading toys...) > > If you like, but they're not all *that* rare. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- The idea is to die young as late as possible. -- Ashley Montagu ------------ Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 18 03:28:42 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > > > Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. > > And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better > > at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better tolerance for > > boring tedious work while sitting on their butts for long periods of time. > > And keeping in mind that we are talking about IBM and the like, they would > hire women for it because they could get away with paying them less. Actually, for manufacturing operators, in IBM, women on average make more than men. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 18 03:26:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <200112180220.fBI2Kc725445@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Either way, that would be pretty cool. I've got Warp Connect > > running on my P70 with an Evergreen 486 upgrade. > > I'm pretty sure a 486 upgrade will be my next step. Do you have > any pointers for entering the BIOS, opening the system, etc.? You can't just enter the BIOS on a Microchannel machine. You have to get a reference diskette from ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks/ Peace... Sridhar From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 03:54:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <200112180328.fBI3SGZ26025@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200112180328.fBI3SGZ26025@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >I'm thinking of the MCMASTER upgrade, if I can find one. I know it uses >one of the MCA slots, but I only need one extra one for an Ethernet card. The McMaster is definately the way to go if you don't mind losing one of the two slots. It'd be faster and you'll get more RAM out of the deal. Good luck finding one at a reasonable price though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Dec 18 03:46:22 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662BA@exc-reo1> > My Vaxstation 4000/60 has an 8 (or so) red led that also > posts codes at > power on but nothing else in either vms or in netbsd. A number of years ago, someone wrote a utility for OpenVMS that would display a CPU load on the seven segment LED of a MicroVAX II 9or MicroVAX 3600 series, I forget). Assuming you can find it, hacking it to do the VS4000-60/VS4000-9x LEDs should not be too much of a stretch. Antonio From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Tue Dec 18 03:47:18 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021992@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] > Sent: 17 December 2001 21:43 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > > > The Digital Group systems get my vote. I've only *heard* of about 3, > > since being on this list, which is a while. Maybe because no-one is > > looking? I can't even imagine finding a full-up system, with several > > CPU boards, Phi-deck tape drives, and matching cabinets for the > > monitor, system unit, and tape drives, not to mention all > the OS's and > > other software... well, maybe I can imagine it... > > Yep, I'd agree here too. I have one complete system, and > aside from that, > the only other one I've ever seen was a kit sold at VCF 2.0 (or was it > 3.0)? > Dammit - I was offered a Digital Group machine earlier this year and the only thing that stopped me was the horrendous shipping cost from the US. This thing had the (in)famous tape unit attached that contained either 4 or 6 drives; can't remember. I've still got the pix of it somewhere, and it also spurred me on to do some digging with the result of finding Gus Calabrese who was the founder (or one of them) of TDG in the first place...... -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From west at tseinc.com Mon Dec 17 20:24:34 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: mail list cleanup - please ignore Message-ID: <000f01c1876b$2504b340$0101a8c0@jay> Trying to get rid of a bunch of invalid email addresses in the list. Please ignore this message Jay West From west at tseinc.com Mon Dec 17 21:59:06 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: testing - please ignore Message-ID: <003401c18778$575e2ee0$0101a8c0@jay> More work *sigh* From mranalog at attbi.com Tue Dec 18 04:01:17 2001 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Static was Re: [PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? Message-ID: <3C1F13ED.58CEE784@attbi.com> Matthew Sell wrote: > Vacuum cleaning is much more "dangerous" for a PCB than washing it. > Pete made a very good point, one I had forgotten, the static charge created > by dust moving through an insulated (plastic) pipe can generate some > obscene voltages. This is not a problem with a little bit of planning. One of my other hobbies is woodworking. Breathing in the sawdust from many hardwoods is very unhealthy, so most well financed wood shops have some kind of dust collection systems. With flow rates of 200-1100 cfm and long runs of plastic hose, a dust collector plus sawdust can be an explosive situation. Thats why grounding kit are sold separatly or included with most dust collectors. These kits consist of a lenth of wire that runs down the hose and metal clamps to clamp the wire to the hose at regular intervals. These kits are available in most woodworking stores. Of course my favorite way to protect a circuit board from static is to cover the solder side with aluminum foil, lay it on conductive foam or a conductive plastic bag. On a different subject: I've also used aluminum foil to create a ground plane to cut down on noise on some extender boards. I take two pieces of cardboard the size of the PCB and wrap one with aluminum foil. After making sure that none of the solder joints will poke through the bare piece of cardboard, I make a sandwich of the solder side of the PCB, the bare piece of cardboard, and then the aluminum wrapped cardboard. With this taped to the PCB, I solder a wire from the aluminum foil to ground on the PCB. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Dec 18 05:15:54 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <15390.19977.504161.88301@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Hey folks, would anyone here be able to get me disk images for OS/2 >release 3 or 4? I am pretty sure I have a CD of OS/2 Warp 3, if nobody responds email me and I will make an image file. If somebody has a later version I am interested in the image file as well. BTW something called briefcase.yahoo.com seems like good free storage for this sort of exchange. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 18 08:21:59 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm pretty sure I have a copy of Warp 4 Server, if I can find it. I'll look this weekend. ISTR, though, hearing that the OS/2 CDs don't image well. Does anybody know whether that's true? I maintain that a byte-for-byte dd will work on *anything*. Very Slowly. :) Doc On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > I am pretty sure I have a CD of OS/2 Warp 3, if nobody responds email me > and I will make an image file. > > If somebody has a later version I am interested in the image file as well. From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Tue Dec 18 08:11:58 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: More office cleanout finds: I salvaged a new, shrink-wrapped copy of OS/2 Warp Version 3, Red label (needs a separated copy of DOS/Windows), 3.5" disks. I'm offering it free for postage (5 pounds) or pickup in the Chicago Loop. Email me at robert_feldman@jdedwards.com. I will decide among multiple requests next week (after Christmas holidays). Bob From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 18 10:56:35 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > I'm pretty sure I have a copy of Warp 4 Server, if I can find it. I'll > look this weekend. ISTR, though, hearing that the OS/2 CDs don't image > well. Does anybody know whether that's true? I maintain that a > byte-for-byte dd will work on *anything*. Very Slowly. :) Well, I've never met a standard CD that it wouldn't work on. I was told third-hand by somebody who worked for SGI that their media was somehow "copy protected" and couldn't be reproduced well. I've successfully imaged my IRIX 6.2 media and booted/installed my system from the backup. Works fine. Also have done VMS, Solaris, and one of the "extras" disks that goes with AIX. All of them worked fine. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 18 12:38:23 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Christopher Smith "RE: OS/2" (Dec 18, 10:56) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <10112181838.ZM25711@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 18, 10:56, Christopher Smith wrote: > Well, I've never met a standard CD that it wouldn't work on. I was told > third-hand by somebody who worked for SGI that their media was somehow "copy > protected" and couldn't be reproduced well. > > I've successfully imaged my IRIX 6.2 media and booted/installed my system > from the backup. Works fine. Same experience here. i've made copies of IRIX CDs, and I've made non-standard bootable distribution CDs. The only unusual feature is that they're an EFS filesystem rather than, say, ISO9660. But as far as a burner is concerned, an image is an image, and as far as Linux's dd command is concerned, the same is true (I've copied Apple CDs the same way, by dd'ing from the raw disk device holding the CD, to a file.). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From UberTechnoid at Home.com Tue Dec 18 13:50:55 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <10112181838.ZM25711@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011218200851.VKFN2988.femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I've been running OS/2 as my main desktop since 1992 so I don't know anyone more qualified....: I've never had any trouble making duplicates/backups of my OS/2 cdroms. Including EcomStation. Warp connect and Warp 4 will require patched installation floppy to install on a drive larger than 4.0gb. SCSI drives excepted I believe. The files you need are at IBM's software support site and are: FDISK.COM, and IBM1S506.ASS ---> the IDE hard disk driver for os/2. Ecomstation and newer releases from IBM don't have this limitation. I use Ecomstation on my main machine. My router is running Warp Connect with the latest fixpacks (OS/2 has had web-enabled auto-updates for YEARS which makes it easy as pie to update). The router software is "SafeFire" nat router and firewall (freeware). It serves my Sparc, Vax, AtariST, OS/2 PC, and two Windows boxes in addition to my Data General mini. Regards, Jeff In <10112181838.ZM25711@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>, on 12/18/01 at 06:38 PM, pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) said: >On Dec 18, 10:56, Christopher Smith wrote: >> Well, I've never met a standard CD that it wouldn't work on. I was told >> third-hand by somebody who worked for SGI that their media was somehow >"copy >> protected" and couldn't be reproduced well. >> >> I've successfully imaged my IRIX 6.2 media and booted/installed my system >> from the backup. Works fine. >Same experience here. i've made copies of IRIX CDs, and I've made >non-standard bootable distribution CDs. The only unusual feature is that >they're an EFS filesystem rather than, say, ISO9660. But as far as a >burner is concerned, an image is an image, and as far as Linux's dd >command is concerned, the same is true (I've copied Apple CDs the same >way, by dd'ing from the raw disk device holding the CD, to a file.). -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Dec 18 13:45:56 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: >Same experience here. i've made copies of IRIX CDs, and I've made >non-standard bootable distribution CDs. The only unusual feature is that >they're an EFS filesystem rather than, say, ISO9660. But as far as a >burner is concerned, an image is an image, and as far as Linux's dd command >is concerned, the same is true (I've copied Apple CDs the same way, by >dd'ing from the raw disk device holding the CD, to a file.). Humm... but this still won't work for PSX game discs right? Since they have a bad checksum, a standard burner can't write them back out, because it will correct the checksum? What I don't understand is, why can't someone write a program that will write the back check? I used to have a floppy disk copier for the Mac that did something similar. If the source disk was damaged, it would write the damaged data to the destination disk (the software was SUPPOSED to do that, it was to let you duplicate bad disks before running things like MacTools on it, in case it didn't work, you could dupe it again, and try something different) Alas, that software was for back in the "Classic Mac" era, and no longer runs (nor has any idea how to write to a CD) -c From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 18 14:16:04 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467401@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! >Same experience here. i've made copies of IRIX CDs, and I've made ! >non-standard bootable distribution CDs. The only unusual ! >feature is that ! >they're an EFS filesystem rather than, say, ISO9660. But as far as a ! >burner is concerned, an image is an image, and as far as ! >Linux's dd command ! >is concerned, the same is true (I've copied Apple CDs the ! >same way, by ! >dd'ing from the raw disk device holding the CD, to a file.). ! ! Humm... but this still won't work for PSX game discs right? ! Since they ! have a bad checksum, a standard burner can't write them back ! out, because ! it will correct the checksum? ! ! What I don't understand is, why can't someone write a program ! that will ! write the back check? I used to have a floppy disk copier for the Mac ! that did something similar. If the source disk was damaged, it would ! write the damaged data to the destination disk (the software ! was SUPPOSED ! to do that, it was to let you duplicate bad disks before ! running things ! like MacTools on it, in case it didn't work, you could dupe ! it again, and ! try something different) ! ! Alas, that software was for back in the "Classic Mac" era, ! and no longer ! runs (nor has any idea how to write to a CD) ! ! -c ! I heard that CloneCD is what you're talking about... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 18 06:03:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B76@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > In real life, it's pretty tough to convince management that you should start > > all over. The typical reaction is to put the prototype in a box and sell as > > is :-( > > Another manifestation of the "There isn't enough time to do it right but > there's enough time to do it over" school of thought :-( Is this Darwinian? That is, do people who lose their common sense and become stupid just naturally rise up into management (a la The Peter Principle)? Or do they willingly learn to be stupid once they rise up into management? Chris, you're management, so I know this isn't universal (how has your brain survived?) but it's damned prolifigate... -dq From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Dec 18 11:32:44 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B76@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Is this Darwinian? That is, do people who lose their common sense > and become stupid just naturally rise up into management (a la > The Peter Principle)? Or do they willingly learn to be stupid > once they rise up into management? I don't believe that being stupid or out of touch with reality is a requirement to be part of management (although historically people with those -er- qualities have flocked to management, presumably because there wasn't enough demand for telephone sanitizers). However, it's clear that success in management often has more to do with being politically astute than with producing meaningful results, hence some of the mind-numbing stupid management tricks. Some of my favorites: Moving crap to the other side of a painted line on the loading dock so it can be claimed as "shipped" in the financial roll-up when in fact nobody has ordered the stuff. Shipping code with known defects to customers in order to placate them -- never mind the fact that once crap like that escapes the shop all development stops because everyone is running around pissing on fires. Closely associated: shipping stuff with known defects but making it all better by affixing the label "alpha" or "beta" (or my personal favorite "pre-alpha", whatever the hell _that_ is). Producing schedules based on what marketing/sales has committed to the customer without bothering to consult engineering. There's one guy who has been a thorn in my side for months -- a (I am not joking) former penile implant salesman who not only tells customers that we have functionality in place when nobody has even though of writing specs for it, but then doesn't bother to tell anyone that he's done so until 48 hours before the product is due at the customer site. All of these behaviors are the consequence of lying -- if not to the customer, then to the board, the shareholders or to themselves -- all in an effort to close a deal or deflect criticism. Everything is optimized to the present, long-term consequences be damned. > Chris, you're management, so I know this isn't universal (how > has your brain survived?) but it's damned prolifigate... Because I've never stopped doing engineering. While I do a lot more architecture than code slinging these days I _still_ write code. I don't last long in situations where I'm asked to do "pure" management (i.e., put on a tie and spend all day in meetings, pre-meetings, pre-pre-meetings, kickoff meetings and other forms of corporate circle jerks when not out grin f*cking customers); likewise I have a low tolerance for corporate form-and-function when it gets in the way of delivering quality product to the customer on something resembling schedule and budget. If things are screwed up I try to fix them, if I can't fix them I pull chocks and move on. Chris Who actually received "Chris should be more tolerant of corporate form and function" on a review...) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From foo at siconic.com Tue Dec 18 14:27:43 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <20011218061313.MFDV26411.imf28bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > From: Sellam Ismail > > > Programmers were, are, and will > > always be lazy and impatient. > > Man alive -- I always knew I was stupid for putting in all those > 80-hour weeks, but lazy? And impatient??? As far as documenting code, yes. I put in 80 hour weeks at one point in my life as well, but all that was spent on programming. Documentation should've been handled by some underling that wasn't as smart or capable as me. I had better and more important things to be doing than documenting code ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 18 06:12:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B77@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On another note, CDC hardware that wasn't OEM'd from SGI seems relatively > uncommon. There's one CDC workstation that was a re-badged Indigo, that's > relatively common. It's the only CDC system I've seen for sale. Fascinating... and of the CDC hardware I've seen for sale, I've never seen anything that CDC didn't build themselves. But then, all I've seen was 60s & 70s era stuff... -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 18 10:22:30 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: William Donzelli [mailto:aw288@osfn.org] > > workstations. Clipper based, and pre-clipper (were they > VAX?) Intergraph > > systems. > The early big servers were VAX based. In fact, they were mostly just > rebadged. RCS/RI has an Intergraph VAX 8550. It has some > really strange > custom hardware in the disk controllers - something about > these things > could do searches thru files on the disks for specific > graphics entities > (for CAD) without bothering the processor. Odd. "Really-strange-custom-hardware" was Intergraph's middle name for the longest time. That's what makes their systems so interesting. > > There's one CDC workstation that was a re-badged Indigo, that's > > relatively common. It's the only CDC system I've seen for sale. > CDC was rebadging IRIS 3000 machines as Cyber 910s. *Really*? What are my chances of finding one? I'd love to have an IRIS 3000, if I found that I could fit it in the house. :) Did they run the early versions of IRIX? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Dec 18 10:37:04 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: > *Really*? What are my chances of finding one? I'd love to have an IRIS > 3000, if I found that I could fit it in the house. :) Did they run the > early versions of IRIX? They are not too big - almost the same size as a Sun 4/370. I think they tip the scale at about 200 pounds, but moving them is a pain because they used really cheesy casters. I have not booted mine for the longest time, but I think it is a very old version of IRIX. I think the CAD package is called ElmCAD, or something like that. Pretty bad, in my opinion. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From red at bears.org Tue Dec 18 13:49:48 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, William Donzelli wrote: > They are not too big - almost the same size as a Sun 4/370. I think they > tip the scale at about 200 pounds, but moving them is a pain because they > used really cheesy casters. The IRIS 3000 series aren't too heavy. My 3110 (fully loaded with boards and disks) only weighs something on the order of 100 to 125 pounds. It's an easy move with two people, unlike my Symbolics 3650, which at 160 or so with disks and boards removed, takes some grunting to move with two people. And yes, the IRIS doesn't have so much casters as it has caster-signifiers. They suck. The bottom panel they bolt to tends to warp, which compounds their cheesiness. My Sony TV weighs in at 235 pounds. My roommate and I nearly killed ourselves moving it, and nearly destroyed the TV (and the walls, and the floor, and the front porch..). My AS/400 9406/500 isn't much bigger than the 'bolix but tips the scales at more than 250 pounds. I'm not looking forward to moving it. > I have not booted mine for the longest time, but I think it is a very old > version of IRIX. IRIX only runs on MIPS. Some other SVR3ish software I can't remember the name of ran on the m68k boxes. Do you know the proper syntax to boot an IRIS 3000 from cartridge tape? ok r. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Dec 18 14:41:17 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > IRIX only runs on MIPS. Some other SVR3ish software I can't remember the > name of ran on the m68k boxes. OK. I haven't played with the thing in ages, but I suppose now I am going to have to boot it up. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bills at adrenaline.com Tue Dec 18 11:10:07 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: There was a box I got to play with a little bit in 85-86 by a company called MassComp (I think). It was the first desktop machine I encountered that really gave an impression of being powerful. I'm not really desperate to get one, but I've never seen another. Maybe they are common elsewhere and not really as interesting as I remember? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 18 12:51:51 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Christopher Smith "RE: Hardest to Find Classic Computers" (Dec 18, 10:22) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFD6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <10112181851.ZM25728@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 18, 10:22, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: William Donzelli [mailto:aw288@osfn.org] > > > There's one CDC workstation that was a re-badged Indigo, that's > > > relatively common. It's the only CDC system I've seen for sale. > > > CDC was rebadging IRIS 3000 machines as Cyber 910s. > > *Really*? What are my chances of finding one? I'd love to have an IRIS > 3000, if I found that I could fit it in the house. :) Did they run the > early versions of IRIX? Um, no, not really. I'm sure a Cyber 910 is a rebadged 4D/35 (or variant, depending on the Cyber suffix), very similar to an Indigo, and much smaller than a 3000. There are plenty of pictures on the web, and references in the 4D FAQ. They'll run IRIX 4 or IRIX 5. http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2258/4dfaq.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 18 13:59:28 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com [mailto:pete@dunnington.u-net.com] > > *Really*? What are my chances of finding one? I'd love to > have an IRIS > > 3000, if I found that I could fit it in the house. :) Did > they run the > > early versions of IRIX? > Um, no, not really. I'm sure a Cyber 910 is a rebadged 4D/35 > (or variant, > depending on the Cyber suffix), very similar to an Indigo, > and much smaller > than a 3000. There are plenty of pictures on the web, and > references in > the 4D FAQ. They'll run IRIX 4 or IRIX 5. Well, that's disappointing, but 4D is still nice. I do have my heart set on eventually running an m68k-based SGI though. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Dec 18 14:17:43 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>; from csmith@amdocs.com on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 01:59:28PM -0600 References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011218141743.J8521275@uiuc.edu> Christopher Smith said: > > Well, that's disappointing, but 4D is still nice. > > I do have my heart set on eventually running an m68k-based SGI though. speaking of old SGIs...did any of them use microchannel? The reason I ask is that I have an old (1987 or '88, I think), SGI-branded 2-board video adapter that plugs into 2 MCA slots. The only other things I can imagine it might be for are an RS/6k, but that seems doubtful, or a PS/2 or some such PC thing, which seems even less likely... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011218/fe4ac874/attachment.bin From red at bears.org Tue Dec 18 14:53:00 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011218141743.J8521275@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > speaking of old SGIs...did any of them use microchannel? Nope. Multibus, VME, GIO, XIO, EISA, PCI.. never MCA. > The reason I ask is that I have an old (1987 or '88, I think), > SGI-branded 2-board video adapter that plugs into 2 MCA slots. The > only other things I can imagine it might be for are an RS/6k, but that > seems doubtful, or a PS/2 or some such PC thing, which seems even less > likely... Guess what? It's for a PS/2. What you have is an IRISVISION display adapter. Check out Louis Ohland's "9595 Ardent Tool of Capitalism" page. ok r. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 18 06:18:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B78@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Why on earth would Sun put a cool set of leds UNDERNEATH the cover? I mean, > you might as well put it out there. Apollo did this, too, but had cute little hinged doors covering the LEDs' most everyone leaves them open, because one LED is flashed by the system once per second, and is called "The Heartbeat". The Prime 2455 has four LEDs on its virtual control panel board, three red and one green. No one I can find has a clue what they all indicate... -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 05:47:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B78@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B78@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Dec18.152044est.119282@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > Why on earth would Sun put a cool set of leds UNDERNEATH the >cover? I mean, >> you might as well put it out there. > >Apollo did this, too, but had cute little hinged doors covering >the LEDs' most everyone leaves them open, because one LED is >flashed by the system once per second, and is called "The >Heartbeat". The dual-processor BeBox also has a line of status LED's going up both sides of it's case to indicate the CPU load. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 18 06:25:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Paper Tape Fun Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B79@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I recently acquired (out of desperation) a DSI paper > tape punch/reader on ePay (at a reasonable price, but > not guaranteed to work). I cleaned it up, oiled it > here and there, and after puzzling out the RS-232, got > it running punching Mylar fine. To test it, I wrote a > Windows program to test it out with; the program lets > you type in a phrase, looks up the ASCII, and prints > the letters out on the tape in a 7x5 matrix format, > upper and lower case. I'm pretty sure that there were > programs that ran on mainframes to do this sort of > thing. Useless, but kind of fun - I made a banner for > my museum with it. If anyone on this list has a > punch, and admits to using Windows, ha ha, I can make > this available. On the CDC 6600, we had a Model 415 High-Speed Paper Tape Reader/Punch. We had a locally-created control card we'd use to control the disposition of output. In the standard KRONOS system, it was DISPOSE, but we had so many devices spread out over so many campuses that we wrote a card we called ROUTE. Among other tasks, ROUTE provided the banner pages for print jobs. A standard feature of the banner was the job name, usually, your three initials plus a job ordinal. When you'd sent output to the tape punch, it would punch the job name at the start of the tape, in the manner you describe. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 18 06:41:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B7A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I based my statement upon information gleaned from conversations with my > customers, 80% of which are black. Most of them think that Kwanzaa was > "made up" by retailers in order to get their money. Some have told me that > they resent the "social engineering" aspect of Kwanzaa. Here in the South, > there seems to be very little support of or identification with this event > among African-Americans. Doubtlessly true; I've heard some people say the same thing about Christmas. > > January 1 was "made up" into New Years Day by an act of > > fiat; New Years Day used to be April 1. > > When and how did this happen? Actually, there was no "act", that was hyperbole. The earliest reference to a Januray 1 New Year I can find is the Roman Civil Year. Later, the Catholic Church, which liked to line up the calendar with its Holy Events, wanted sto see Christmas become the start of the new year. But some later winter/early spring feasts were a popular time for the people, so through much of the dark ages, April 1 was the start of the New year. When the establishment of the Gregorian Calnedar began to take hold (which moved New Year's Day officially to Jan 1), people foolish enought to still celebrate it on April 1 became known as "April's Fools". The Gregorian Calendar was adopted tt different times in different countries; I think Russia held out until the early 20th Centurt. See http://www.genfair.com/dates.htm for more info. Regards, -dq From foo at siconic.com Tue Dec 18 14:29:07 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end) In-Reply-To: <200112180622.fBI6MT458299@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Before this whole discussion turns overtly racist, can we please take it SOMEWHERE ELSE WHERE IT BELONGS??? On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Chris wrote: > >I based my statement upon information gleaned from conversations with my > >customers, 80% of which are black. Most of them think that Kwanzaa was > >"made up" by retailers in order to get their money. Some have told me that > >they resent the "social engineering" aspect of Kwanzaa. Here in the South, > >there seems to be very little support of or identification with this event > >among African-Americans. > > Oh, you need to come up here, and visit the heavily black neighborhoods > of Jersey City (conviently, right where my wife grew up)... there, > Kwanzaa is a big deal, and it has NOTHING to do with retailers getting > their money. It has everything to do with their not celebrating christmas > because that is whitey's holiday, and crackers are the enemy (their > terms, not mine... I get "whitey"... I get "white bread"... but > cracker?!? I would ask when visiting my inlaws... but I would just get my > ass kicked, or worse, shot). > > As to the REAL reason for Kwanzaa, I have no idea, but I do know, around > here it is entirely a racial thing, and the only people that really seem > to take it seriously are the inner city high crime area > Afican-Americans... which unfortuantly gives the whole thing a bad notion > up here. Its a shame really, as I am sure there was a real reason for it, > but like many other things, it has been badly perverted by a very very > select group of people who decided to use it for their own agenda. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 18 07:52:54 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <001e01c187cb$4c221f20$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Richard Erlacher >Yup! That's already been pointed out ... I made the choice to use the Western >MFM-capable part back in '78 and never looked back. I let someone else tell me >why, but I never regretted it. The process with the Western part is apparently >the same, though there was something critical that the NEC part didn't do. >Maybe it had to do with altering the gap lengths in order to accomodate an extra >sector, or some such. Of course, possible or not, I never ended up doing that >either. Gaps are programmable too. There are two things the 765 will not do: Munged wacky formats like using deleted address mark for address mark {you can post format with deleted data} and it was not designed to pump out all the raw bits/splices/marks from the media. Things it did do that the WD never had: Multiple seeks or recals, timing for the stepper, head load delay, head settle delay. The biggest difference: register based programming vs command packet to a "port". I've used both and someplaces one or the other is better. On the whole the WD parts always seemed to be first generation. The upside for the 765 based was the very highly integrated super chips like the 36c766 and later. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 18 09:02:46 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <001e01c187cb$4c221f20$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <002801c187d5$0d95f600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 6:52 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > From: Richard Erlacher > > > Gaps are programmable too. There are two things the 765 will not do: > Munged > wacky formats like using deleted address mark for address mark {you can post > format with deleted data} and it was not designed to pump out all the raw > bits/splices/marks from the media. > What? I do seem to remember that the data fields could be written during formatting with the WD parts but I don't think anybody ever used that feature, though it would have been a good/smart feature for software duplication. There was some confusion about whether it worked properly because the part responded to some bytes by generating an address mark, though I doubt it did that while writing the data field. > > Things it did do that the WD never had: Multiple seeks or recals, timing > for the stepper, head load delay, head settle delay. > Did it do "implied seeks" wherein the controller looked at where it was and then automatically computed the difference before moving the heads? > > The biggest difference: register based programming vs command packet to a > "port". > Back in the '77-'82 period I was probably responsible for the use of 100K Western chips and it might as well have been decided on a coin toss. I was persuaded by the guys who sold 'em, and since Western was ultimately responsible for the use of much of my time, I was happy to oblige. They always suited me just fine. I'm not sure what you mean by this contrast between register based vs packet programming though. Perhaps you could cite an example? The Western part is certainly register based. Isn't the NEC part also just a register set? > > I've used both and someplaces one or the other is better. On the whole the > WD > parts always seemed to be first generation. The upside for the 765 based > was the very highly integrated super chips like the 36c766 and later. > That was an advantage for those who were invested in a software base, but nobody knew that back in '78-79. What's the 36C766? Google comes up empty. I've seen some 37C665/666 types, but 36Cnnn? Who made them? What's interesting, BTW, is that even Western, with its institutional prejudice toward analog PLL's went with the 765 core once it went to the fully integrated all-digital FDC, having dealt with the lower data rates in the 1770/72/73 chips, which were not shown to be capable of 500 Kbps for some reason. Perhaps there was some advantage in the 765 core that made it more amenable to integration with a digital clock extraction circuit at the higher data rate. I doubt that Intel would have gone for the 765 type if there weren't some manufacturing advantage inherent in the silicon. That may be what's made the difference. Intel certainly would have chosen the chip that was more economically manufacturable, though maybe their primary economy came from the already-established relationship (which they'd sabotage later) with NEC. > > Allison > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 18 09:06:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: FDC's (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <001e01c187cb$4c221f20$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <002c01c187d5$8463c780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There was a thread a while back about the WD 1770/72/73, which seemed to have disappeared. I recently learned that you get a hit on WD1773 at http://www.identek.com/templates/identek/index.cfm?MD=JUG00248. I haven't had the courage to ask for a quote yet ... Dick From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 18 08:05:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <000201c187cd$52cd0d60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk >Since I have no way of having a chip of 80's technology made I have to >limit the design to what looks realistic for that era. I dont get that? You want a 4mhz z80 or 5mhz 8085? Those are relatively common. Now, if your doing PDP-8 era then 1.2uS instruction cycle was the number, slow by todays standards. >This is what this is -- a hobby/ learning tool -- In the early 80s, I really was trying to do what zilog eventually did, make a Z280 more or less. That and figure out what this ucode thing was all about. >If it was $$$ making I would have to move to Seattle. :) Now that's depressing. ;) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 18 12:44:52 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <000201c187cd$52cd0d60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3C1F8EA4.E55E36D3@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > From: Ben Franchuk > >Since I have no way of having a chip of 80's technology made I have to > >limit the design to what looks realistic for that era. > I dont get that? You want a 4mhz z80 or 5mhz 8085? Those are relatively > common. Now, if your doing PDP-8 era then 1.2uS instruction cycle was > the number, slow by todays standards. Only 1000x slower. That is 10x for ever 10 years. What I wanted was a 12/24 bit CPU. Other than the 6100 cpu ( over priced? ) by DEC nobody has ever put a octal machine 24:12 or 18:9 or 36:18:9 on a chip. (Ignoring PDP-10 stuff) to my knowledge. BTW back then I had a Z80 kit, but problems with a home brew power supply kept it from running well. > >This is what this is -- a hobby/ learning tool -- > > In the early 80s, I really was trying to do what zilog eventually did, > make a Z280 more or less. That and figure out what this ucode > thing was all about. I have yet to see a nice micro-code example. All the micro-code I have done ( on paper ) needed 32+ bits for a 2901 design. Also about 2K of ROM. TTL controller. It got messy after you added a MAR, In/out registers, and stuff like opcode decoding. > >If it was $$$ making I would have to move to Seattle. :) > > Now that's depressing. ;) You tell me how I can make $$$ and I will not move to seattle. Deal? I could move to Antarctica and make linux boxes. Take a penguin and stuff it in old 386. Stamp exported from 'Finland'.:) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 18 11:49:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <001e01c187ec$5fb95e60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Richard Erlacher >> Munged >> wacky formats like using deleted address mark for address mark {you can post >> format with deleted data} and it was not designed to pump out all the raw >> bits/splices/marks from the media. >> >What? I do seem to remember that the data fields could be written during >formatting with the WD parts but I don't think anybody ever used that feature, >though it would have been a good/smart feature for software duplication. There >was some confusion about whether it worked properly because the part responded >to some bytes by generating an address mark, though I doubt it did that while >writing the data field. Two differing things. The WD part you could format a disk with Deleted data marks where data marks are normally found. Infact you could put all sorts of odd stuff in strange placesn using WD. The 765 was ucoded to do IBM standard formats so a lot of the who's where is already known and mapped. >> Things it did do that the WD never had: Multiple seeks or recals, timing >> for the stepper, head load delay, head settle delay. >> >Did it do "implied seeks" wherein the controller looked at where it was and then >automatically computed the difference before moving the heads? No, I know of no chip that did. It made for a peice of that. >> The biggest difference: register based programming vs command packet to a >> "port". >> >Back in the '77-'82 period I was probably responsible for the use of 100K >Western chips and it might as well have been decided on a coin toss. I was No it wasn't, the 765 design was introduced in late '79, by then you were locked to WD. >vs packet programming though. Perhaps you could cite an example? The Western >part is certainly register based. Isn't the NEC part also just a register set? Internally the 765 has "registers". However, you feed it via one port addres with a command packet and after the data IO is done you read a status packet of 1-9 bytes based on the command issued. It's obsious when you look at the part, the 765 has A0 for the port addressing (status and command/data) where A0 only has meaning{it's only active during /CS not /DACK) during non-dma ops. >That was an advantage for those who were invested in a software base, but nobody >knew that back in '78-79. What's the 36C766? Google comes up empty. I've seen >some 37C665/666 types, but 36Cnnn? Who made them? Several vendors including SMC and UMC. They were variations of the 765 with rate generators and interface to disk plus IOports (parallel, serial and even IDE). Aimed at PCs they replaced the two serial ports, IDE, FDC and parallel boards. >What's interesting, BTW, is that even Western, with its institutional prejudice >toward analog PLL's went with the 765 core once it went to the fully integrated >all-digital FDC, having dealt with the lower data rates in the 1770/72/73 chips, >which were not shown to be capable of 500 Kbps for some reason. Perhaps there >was some advantage in the 765 core that made it more amenable to integration >with a digital clock extraction circuit at the higher data rate. I doubt that >Intel would have gone for the 765 type if there weren't some manufacturing >advantage inherent in the silicon. That may be what's made the difference. >Intel certainly would have chosen the chip that was more economically >manufacturable, though maybe their primary economy came from the >already-established relationship (which they'd sabotage later) with NEC. The 765 core did the step rate and may of the external things that the 1793 needed external hardware for. The preference for digital data seperation was pushed by NEC as it could be done with a small 32x4 prom and a latch with good reliability compared to the often difficult analog designs. Also digital fits on silicon of the time better. I have a design and samples we did in late '81 to put the floppy side "glue" on one 2500 gate array that allowed for data sep, write pre comp, drive and motor selects and all the other things that would end up on the super chips. The end result was a complete FDC two chip combo that was half the price of discrete 765 or WD 1793 designs with no performance compromizes. It was never marketed for obtuse reasons and less than three years later several vendors were putting 765+glue on one chip. And the d7265 wa the ISO 3.5" tuned version that had a shorter VCO sync time{post index gap time} and a shortend index gap. I believe most of the 765 cores are of the 7265 flavor. The aside to that is that the SMC 9229 was a digital data sep/clock/precomp that worked with both the 765 and 1793 with equal perfomance for all rates. SMC also had a 765 core with analog PLL (9265 or 66) for those that prefered analog. The 1770/2/3 problem was not data seperator in itself but process speed of the die, they{WD} flat out could not do the required 16mhz stuff then for the data sep and the other rate generators. The 1793 with external 9229 works great at 500khz but, the 1793 only has to see something like 2 or 4mhz max and therein lies the difference. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 18 14:13:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <001e01c187ec$5fb95e60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <001901c18800$87ab1bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:49 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > From: Richard Erlacher > >> Munged > >> wacky formats like using deleted address mark for address mark {you can post > >> format with deleted data} and it was not designed to pump out all the raw > >> bits/splices/marks from the media. > >> > >What? I do seem to remember that the data fields could be written during > >formatting with the WD parts but I don't think anybody ever used that feature, > >though it would have been a good/smart feature for software duplication. There > >was some confusion about whether it worked properly because the part > responded to some bytes by generating an address mark, though I doubt it > did that while writing the data field. > > > Two differing things. The WD part you could format a disk with Deleted data > marks > where data marks are normally found. Infact you could put all sorts of odd > stuff > in strange places using WD. The 765 was ucoded to do IBM standard formats > so a lot of the who's where is already known and mapped. > Yes, that's true, though the "deleted data address mark" was an IBM standard feature. Western apparently though it might be useful to write unique address marks. Why? I don't know. > > >> Things it did do that the WD never had: Multiple seeks or recals, timing > >> for the stepper, head load delay, head settle delay. > >> Western did the stepper timing, but I still can't understand why they didn't build in the head-load timer. > > > Did it do "implied seeks" wherein the controller looked at where it was and > > then automatically computed the difference before moving the heads? > > > No, I know of no chip that did. It made for a piece of that. > There was talk about stuff like that, but all the WD chips did was (1) return the result of and ID read, or (2) set a flag to ensure the track in the ID field was consistent with the track register content. > > >> The biggest difference: register based programming vs command packet to a > >> "port". > >> > >Back in the '77-'82 period I was probably responsible for the use of 100K > >Western chips and it might as well have been decided on a coin toss. I was > > > No it wasn't, the 765 design was introduced in late '79, by then you were > locked to WD. > Timing is everything, isn't it? I think what happened was that someone gave me one of the early 1793's and I was off and running, since I already had used the 1771 and had code that would work with it. > NEC had a couple of earlier controllers, numbered something like 371 and 372, didn't they? > > >vs packet programming though. Perhaps you could cite an example? The > Western > >part is certainly register based. Isn't the NEC part also just a register > set? > > > Internally the 765 has "registers". However, you feed it via one port > addres with a > command packet and after the data IO is done you read a status packet of 1-9 > bytes > based on the command issued. It's obvious when you look at the part, the > 765 > has A0 for the port addressing (status and command/data) where A0 only has > meaning{it's only active during /CS not /DACK) during non-dma ops. > > >That was an advantage for those who were invested in a software base, but > nobody > >knew that back in '78-79. What's the 36C766? Google comes up empty. I've > seen > >some 37C665/666 types, but 36Cnnn? Who made them? > > > Several vendors including SMC and UMC. They were variations of the 765 with > rate generators and interface to disk plus IOports (parallel, serial and > even IDE). > Aimed at PCs they replaced the two serial ports, IDE, FDC and parallel > boards. > > >What's interesting, BTW, is that even Western, with its institutional > prejudice > >toward analog PLL's went with the 765 core once it went to the fully > integrated > >all-digital FDC, having dealt with the lower data rates in the 1770/72/73 > chips, > >which were not shown to be capable of 500 Kbps for some reason. Perhaps > there > >was some advantage in the 765 core that made it more amenable to > integration > >with a digital clock extraction circuit at the higher data rate. I doubt > that > >Intel would have gone for the 765 type if there weren't some manufacturing > >advantage inherent in the silicon. That may be what's made the difference. > >Intel certainly would have chosen the chip that was more economically > >manufacturable, though maybe their primary economy came from the > >already-established relationship (which they'd sabotage later) with NEC. > > The 765 core did the step rate and many of the external things that the 1793 > needed external hardware for. The preference for digital data seperation > was > pushed by NEC as it could be done with a small 32x4 prom and a latch with > good reliability compared to the often difficult analog designs. Also > digital > fits on silicon of the time better. I have a design and samples we did in > late > '81 to put the floppy side "glue" on one 2500 gate array that allowed for > data > sep, write pre comp, drive and motor selects and all the other things that > would end up on the super chips. The end result was a complete FDC two > chip combo that was half the price of discrete 765 or WD 1793 designs with > no performance compromizes. It was never marketed for obtuse reasons > and less than three years later several vendors were putting 765+glue on > one chip. > > And the d7265 was the ISO 3.5" tuned version that had a shorter VCO sync > time{post index gap time} and a shortend index gap. I believe most of the > 765 cores are of the 7265 flavor. > > The aside to that is that the SMC 9229 was a digital data sep/clock/precomp > that worked with both the 765 and 1793 with equal perfomance for all rates. > SMC also had a 765 core with analog PLL (9265 or 66) for those that prefered > analog. The 1770/2/3 problem was not data seperator in itself but process > speed > of the die, they{WD} flat out could not do the required 16mhz stuff then for > the > data sep and the other rate generators. The 1793 with external 9229 works > great at 500khz but, the 1793 only has to see something like 2 or 4mhz max > and therein lies the difference. > That was 2 MHz. So it was the process, eh? > I was curious how this played in the outside world. Western was happy enough to take my all-digital circuitry that worked just fine from an 8 MHz clock, BTW, but they didn't use it, and I always figured that was because they'd entered into a second-source arrangement with SMC, which came up with the 9216 and 9229. The 9229, btw, cost quite a bit more than the simple logic I used for the clock selection, data/clock separation, and write precomp, not to mention head load timeout. The space reduction did make it appealing, though. My own stuff was well firmed up by then , however, and I didn't ever use the 9229 until much later, when I was using up sample stock on onesies. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 18 12:01:30 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <008c01c1875b$0deffd50$61ee9a8d@ajp166> <007001c1876b$8a41c0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C1DCA64.2130FE1B@jetnet.ab.ca> <001501c18787$e7d64ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C1F847A.20CFB337@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > There's nothing to tweak, since it's all-digital, and, eventually, but not this > week, I can probably send you a scan or a PDF of the datasheet. The original I > have is a preliminary, but I might still have a datasheet from the ChipCenter or > Freetradezone. What I really like is that there is no need at all for cable > drivers, since the interface lines are intended for direct connection. All you > have to do is synchronize your CPU/DMAC to the data acquisition loop and then > roll. If you're slow, you may want to use wait-states, but if you have no > dificulty getting around a 13.5 microsecond loop (the first pass only) and 16 > microseconds per byte, then you're in. Having looked at a few other Floppy disk datasheets for the pc, I would suspect it needs a 24 Mhz clock. I can divide this by 2 to give me 12 Mhz clock for the CPU - 333 ns memory cycle. If I stick with the WD part I will run the cpu @ 16 Mhz (250 ns memory cycle) and divide by 16 for the floppy clock. One advantage of WD part is that I can find source code from SS-50 bus computers to help with software development. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From CLeyson at aol.com Tue Dec 18 14:03:36 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:18 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <109.a8348f1.2950fb18@aol.com> Ben Franchuk wrote: > What I wanted was a 12/24 bit CPU I can live with that - 24 bits is really cool from a DSP point of view. 140dB dynamic range and you can do two data moves and one arithmetic op with a 24-bit instruction. The only modern day 24-bitter that I know of is the Motorola DSP56XX family. Great for fixed point ( fractional ) number crunching. > You tell me how I can make $$$ and I will not move to seattle. > Deal? I could move to Antarctica and make linux boxes. Take a > penguin and stuff it in old 386. Stamp exported from 'Finland'.:) I must protest, that's cruelty to penguins. How would you like to be stuffed into a box labeled Intel or worse still Micro... Damn my keyboards locked up. How about stuffing old silicon into FPGA's ? Chris From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 18 14:57:35 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <000a01c18806$a045e100$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk > >Having looked at a few other Floppy disk datasheets for the pc, I would >suspect >it needs a 24 Mhz clock. I can divide this by 2 to give me 12 Mhz clock >for the Either some product of 9.6mhz (for the oddball 1.2mb 5.25 floppies) or some product of 16mhz for the 500khz 1.44mb floppy. That is of course for the floppy side interface only. The CPU side is driven by Tacc for the FDC IO ports (4 or 8mhz depending on part and age) and the data rate for read or write since there is no silo on the parts I know of. This will be true for all 765 based FDCs (most of the PC controllers are 765 or 765 core logic). Data rates for 1.44mb floppy are the worst at 13uS first byte and 16uS for the remaining. If DMA is possible do it. If not can the cpu execute a wait state during IO{wait on data ready with the read or write pending}? If neither of those then you have to loop and test status or worse usually, use interrupts. It's possible to find WD FDC drivers around but they will be very machine specific more often than not. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 18 15:12:03 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <000a01c18806$a045e100$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3C1FB123.5BE8DF2B@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > It's possible to find WD FDC drivers around but they will be very machine > specific more often than not. But then I find 6800/6809 code more readable than "You Know Who" This will be simple polled loop with interrupts disabled regardless of what chip I use. I would love to have had DMA but I ran out resources for it. In fact DMA is rather messy as I don't tri-state the address bus and would have to stop the CPU for a free memory cycle. If I was doing this on a I/O card I most likely would have a sector buffer their rather than dma. > Allison -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 18 15:14:26 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <002701c18808$fd2d39c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk >What I wanted was a 12/24 bit CPU. Other than the 6100 cpu ( over >priced? ) >by DEC nobody has ever put a octal machine 24:12 or 18:9 or 36:18:9 on a >chip. >(Ignoring PDP-10 stuff) to my knowledge. Right on very few if any! Most went to byte wide or multiples of byte wide... give a guess why? I've always felt that 24bvits was a good starting point for a clean slate machine or a stretched PDP-8. By Stretched 8 I mean just add 12 bits to the right and extend everything else the same amount, gives you a 500k page address and a 16mb machine address. So what if the instruction set is thin if done with modern FPGAs an easy 100ns (12x faster) instruction cycle time would be fine. >I have yet to see a nice micro-code example. All the micro-code >I have done ( on paper ) needed 32+ bits for a 2901 design. >Also about 2K of ROM. TTL controller. It got messy after you added >a MAR, In/out registers, and stuff like opcode decoding. At 48 bits it gets better as then your not horozontal encoding. Also if you use a prom to do the opcode to microaddress translation it looks nicer and cuts a lot out. Also using the 2901 registers for the PC and all saves a bit too. Still, as you noticed a lof of storage bits for managing traffic are incurred. A combinational state machine is simpler in some respects but far less flexible when it comes to fixing a bent opcode. >> Now that's depressing. ;) >You tell me how I can make $$$ and I will not move to seattle. I can't but, some things still taste bad. ;) Allison From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 18 07:55:13 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just sold one for $50...Buyer was overjoyed to get his hands on it. Next to sell off is my P70 that has been redone to 486 with a bigger drive and all running Win95 - It's running a TI upgrade that makes it a 486SX, 486DX if the 387DX is installed. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:54 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New Finds >I'm thinking of the MCMASTER upgrade, if I can find one. I know it uses >one of the MCA slots, but I only need one extra one for an Ethernet card. The McMaster is definately the way to go if you don't mind losing one of the two slots. It'd be faster and you'll get more RAM out of the deal. Good luck finding one at a reasonable price though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 07:24:53 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Dec18.093901est.119342@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I just sold one for $50...Buyer was overjoyed to get his hands on it. From what I understand, they are pretty sought after. >Next to sell off is my P70 that has been redone to 486 with a bigger drive >and all running Win95 - It's running a TI upgrade that makes it a 486SX, >486DX if the 387DX is installed. Is this the same TI chip that I referenced earlier? My P70 is still running it's 387 math-co with the TI 486 chip installed. What kind of drive did you put into it? I'm still running the original 121MB drive. OS/2 looks pretty nice with an external monitor connected to the XGA-2 board. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 18 07:55:14 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Besides getting the ADF file for each card that is installed, asked for by the reference disk. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Boatman on the River of Suck Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:27 AM To: Eric Dittman Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New Finds On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Either way, that would be pretty cool. I've got Warp Connect > > running on my P70 with an Evergreen 486 upgrade. > > I'm pretty sure a 486 upgrade will be my next step. Do you have > any pointers for entering the BIOS, opening the system, etc.? You can't just enter the BIOS on a Microchannel machine. You have to get a reference diskette from ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks/ Peace... Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Tue Dec 18 12:22:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: from "Boatman on the River of Suck" at Dec 18, 2001 04:26:35 AM Message-ID: <200112181822.fBIIMex28563@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > Either way, that would be pretty cool. I've got Warp Connect > > > running on my P70 with an Evergreen 486 upgrade. > > > > I'm pretty sure a 486 upgrade will be my next step. Do you have > > any pointers for entering the BIOS, opening the system, etc.? > > You can't just enter the BIOS on a Microchannel machine. You have to get > a reference diskette from ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks/ Oops, that's right! I completely forgot about that. The last time I touched a MC system was about 8 years ago. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Dec 18 08:23:34 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218092246.00a9c100@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 04:28 AM 12/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >Actually, for manufacturing operators, in IBM, women on average make more >than men. I don't know if it has changed but when I was with IBM they paid for performance in manufacturing. Those who contributed the most were paid the most. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale I accept PayPal To subscribe to automatic updates send a blank e-mail to: online-garage-sale-subscribe@yahoogroups.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 18 11:08:23 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: <008701c1877d$92722360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > Maybe its a good time to spring this one. > I had heard that core stringing was so demanding > that one company offered full retirement benefits for > people who hung in there for x=?=6 years or so. And I have heard that they did most of it in third world countries, so that they would NOT have to supply benefits, such as health care, and could abandon workers when they could no longer perform. When they discontinued operations, do you suppose that they made provision for current workers, such as relocation to active operations, retraining, etc.? Are we talking about the same compan(y|ies)? And what percentage SURVIVED x=?=6 years? That work had a MAJOR toll on eyesight, mild RTS, etc. Analogy: The US promised US citizenship to Philipino soldiers. They stalled more than 50 years until the majority had died of old age, but then granted it. Did the US keep its promise? From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 18 10:03:10 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Kwanzaa... [was: Troll got me (was: Is there no end)] Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673F7@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! ... whitey's holiday, and crackers are the enemy (their ! terms, not mine... I get "whitey"... I get "white bread"... but ! cracker?!? I would ask when visiting my inlaws... but I would ! just get my ass kicked, or worse, shot). Chris - Now, I'm a honkey (now what's the origin of that?) just like you... (like you couldn't tell by the name! :-) I think the term "cracker" is because, ISTR, crackers and bread made basically the same, except crackers don't have any yeast. Both light colored... ! As to the REAL reason for Kwanzaa, I have no idea, but I do ! know, around here it is entirely a racial thing, and the ! only people that really seem to take it seriously are the ! inner city high crime area Afican-Americans... which ! unfortuantly gives the whole thing a bad notion up here. Its ! a shame really, as I am sure there was a real reason for it, ! but like many other things, it has been badly perverted by a ! very very select group of people who decided to use it for ! their own agenda. What's that cliche saying? "One bad apple to spoil..." --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Dec 18 10:34:17 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Honkey In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673F7@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Dec 18, 01 11:03:10 am Message-ID: <200112181634.LAA25160@wordstock.com> > > Chris - Now, I'm a honkey (now what's the origin of that?) just like you... The first time I heard the term "honkey" was on "The Jeffersons"... a favorite *classic* tv show... :) > (like you couldn't tell by the name! :-) Bryan P.S. I was watching an episode a few weeks ago... Their British neighbor has a new girlfriend. So he is doing poetry and mentions "Aphrodite".. So George say "Aphrodite!! Are you going out with a black girl now?!?" From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 18 12:18:25 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Honkey In-Reply-To: <200112181634.LAA25160@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Aphrodite wasn't far from beng balck considering that Greece is pretty close to north Africa. I watched a (Nova??) program once that basically classed ALL peoples into 3 groups according to their features...caucasiod, mongoloid and negroid - basically all yellow/red peoples fell into mongoloid (including native americans), caucasoid was light skin, light haired peoples from nrothern areas, and negroid was all the darker skinned, darker yed/haired. This means that Aussie aborigines are in the same group with black Africans, and Indian/Pakistanis are int he same with Chinese. There is a cross over where they blend too, where Sicilians/Egyptians have both Negroid and Caucasiod features, etc. You could basically center negroid peoples in the continent of Africa, Caucasiods in Europe and mongoloid in Mongolia/China and then watch the features blend as you go between them, such as when you go west from China the features get coarser and darker where people of India have mostly a mongolid bone structure and build but get the darker skin and heavier/darker hair and eyes. I thought about it after that and it actually makes sense. What doesn't make sense is our US reference to "African Americans" - that basically means anyone that is a native of Africa that is now a US resident or has roots/heritage in Africa. There is an awful high percentage of "Africans" in Africa that are of British/German/Dutch/etc blood but were actually born on Africa, making them Africans. Go figure our modern day "political correctness" - it's absolutely incorrect. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:34 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honkey > > Chris - Now, I'm a honkey (now what's the origin of that?) just like you... The first time I heard the term "honkey" was on "The Jeffersons"... a favorite *classic* tv show... :) > (like you couldn't tell by the name! :-) Bryan P.S. I was watching an episode a few weeks ago... Their British neighbor has a new girlfriend. So he is doing poetry and mentions "Aphrodite".. So George say "Aphrodite!! Are you going out with a black girl now?!?" From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 18 11:09:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Honkey Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B7E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Chris - Now, I'm a honkey (now what's the origin of that?) > > just like you... > > The first time I heard the term "honkey" was on "The Jeffersons"... a > favorite *classic* tv show... :) Then there's ofey/ofay... Oh, yeah, down 'Bama way, I believe the term is "frecklebelly".... why? Ever notice how bubba's t-shirts sometimes wear so thin around the belly? It's cognate to "redneck"... -dq From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 18 12:10:05 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Honkey In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B7E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: honky has been around for a long time - my dad was a Chicago cop since '55 and even when I was little (4 or 5) I've heard him telling "war stories" of encounters with the people on his beat where they referred to white folks as "honkies". "hood" is a newer term, but I remember hearing ofay and otay on episodes of the Little Rascals, from back in the 30's... "cracker" is a southern version of "honky", never heard it until I went to texas for basic training. How in the hell did this list get into racial slang anyway? -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 11:10 AM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: Honkey > > Chris - Now, I'm a honkey (now what's the origin of that?) > > just like you... > > The first time I heard the term "honkey" was on "The Jeffersons"... a > favorite *classic* tv show... :) Then there's ofey/ofay... Oh, yeah, down 'Bama way, I believe the term is "frecklebelly".... why? Ever notice how bubba's t-shirts sometimes wear so thin around the belly? It's cognate to "redneck"... -dq From foo at siconic.com Tue Dec 18 14:41:47 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Honkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > How in the hell did this list get into racial slang anyway? The same way it gets into cats, food, cars, guns, ... A lot of folks here need to get out more often. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 18 15:54:08 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Honkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I get out all the time but I still get sucked into these threads but it helps lighten the norm and people seem to get along better during these OT outbursts. Any other list would have the moderator stamping his/her feet and throwing a "don't post that off-topic" tantrum. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:42 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: OT: RE: Honkey On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > How in the hell did this list get into racial slang anyway? The same way it gets into cats, food, cars, guns, ... A lot of folks here need to get out more often. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Dec 18 12:41:03 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Honkey Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014673FC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! honky has been around for a long time - my dad was a Chicago ! cop since '55 ! and even when I was little (4 or 5) I've heard him telling ! "war stories" of ! encounters with the people on his beat where they referred to ! white folks as ! "honkies". Interesting. But I'm still curious as to how it got started... ! "hood" is a newer term, but I remember hearing ofay and otay ! on episodes of ! the Little Rascals, from back in the 30's... ! ! "cracker" is a southern version of "honky", never heard it ! until I went to ! texas for basic training. ! ! How in the hell did this list get into racial slang anyway? Well, somehow we got to talking about Kwanzaa.... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 18 15:13:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Honkey Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B81@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > How in the hell did this list get into racial slang anyway? > > The same way it gets into cats, food, cars, guns, inappropriate topic here>... > > A lot of folks here need to get out more often. If only there were someplace to get out *to*... maybe Bubba and Billy Joe are slugging it out again at the Silver Dollar... that's always a good show. We used to have some very cool, dark, smoky blues clubs around in the 80s... then blues got popular with Gen-X-ers and it all moved downtown to clean, glitzy, neon-infested juke joints... I might point out that some off-topic threads have gone private and ended up being the beginning of more than one new friendship... -dq From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Dec 18 15:54:07 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Honkey In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B81@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Used to be some great Blues clubs in Chicago (where I hail from) but anymore the few remaining are over-commercialized jokes and the others have become Starbucks and cookie shops (per the wording of Kramer in reference to the mom-and-pop shops going away). -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:14 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: RE: Honkey > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > How in the hell did this list get into racial slang anyway? > > The same way it gets into cats, food, cars, guns, inappropriate topic here>... > > A lot of folks here need to get out more often. If only there were someplace to get out *to*... maybe Bubba and Billy Joe are slugging it out again at the Silver Dollar... that's always a good show. We used to have some very cool, dark, smoky blues clubs around in the 80s... then blues got popular with Gen-X-ers and it all moved downtown to clean, glitzy, neon-infested juke joints... I might point out that some off-topic threads have gone private and ended up being the beginning of more than one new friendship... -dq From curt at atari-history.com Tue Dec 18 11:47:17 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Fw: Old Atari ? Message-ID: <006301c187ec$0add4730$0a00a8c0@cvendel> This gentleman has Atari & Commodore systems in Iowa that are available, someone please give them a good home and not make his equipment into epay.com fodder.... Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: Old Atari ? > Curt, > > I have tried searching the web but with no luck. My mother has my old > Atari800 and Comodore systems. They are currently taking up space in her > house, and we do not want them. We would like to either recycle them or > give them to someone who is interested in them. > > She is currently located in NE Iowa. Would you by chance know of > anyone who would be interested in these systems? I hate to just pitch > them. > > Thanks, > > Michael Brodt > St. Louis, MO > brodtm@msnotes.wustl.edu > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 18 12:35:53 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <007501c1877e$91325af0$61ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > >There ARE many things that the WD will do that the NEC won't, including > >writing much sooner after the index pulse, IGNORING certain fields in On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > 765A writes or read sonner than base 765 and the 37c65 even shorter. Ah, Allison, where have you been all of my life? If you would have told me that 15+ years ago, you would have saved me LOTS of time and effort putting tape over index holes, making cables with switches to interrupt the index signal, etc. > It doesnt ignore fields in a multisector read/write however if the > sectors > are written with a interleave it will also keep things in numerical > order. With a 765, if I want to read a sector from the second side of most Kaypro disks, I need to feed it a value that matches the WRONG value that's in the sector header for the H field. With WD, that field can be ignored. > Add to that a full cylinder read does not bring all the non data crap > that formatted media requires to marks all the data spaces. The real > beauty > of that is if you have real DMA you can fire it up and read a whole > cylinder > and all your buffer has is neatly ordered data if the read was > successful. > That latter feature is nice if your doing a caching scheme. Raw v formatted track read has advantges and disadvantages. The 765 approach is very handy for reading a bunch of "normal" sectors. The WD approach makes it possible to read MFM that does not follow "normal" sector header standards, such as Amiga, or some TRS-80 address marks. Personally, I would have preferred the "raw" approach of the WD, but I make no claims to be representative of the marketplace. > >Allison could probably gives us a more comprehensive and authoritative > >list. > Yes I can. Thank you. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 18 15:31:12 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: FDCs (was: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <003401c1880b$51dc62a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) >Ah, Allison, where have you been all of my life? Ah, right here. >If you would have told me that 15+ years ago, you would have saved me LOTS >of time and effort putting tape over index holes, making cables with >switches to interrupt the index signal, etc. ;) and if you havd called NEC during the '79 to '83 time frame you might have gotten me there. One trick for the short index or late index problem of most 1793 formats is solved by using a oneshot that is a delay of index around 98% of rotation time, once it fired the resulting pulse looks earlier and the index window now has the right time. That makes it easy to wind out the VCO sync delay in the 765. >With a 765, if I want to read a sector from the second side of most Kaypro >disks, I need to feed it a value that matches the WRONG value that's in >the sector header for the H field. With WD, that field can be ignored. Ah yep. I did a two sided to match an oddball that had sectors 1 to 18 on the top and 19 thru 36 on the bottom. no problem. >Raw v formatted track read has advantges and disadvantages. The 765 >approach is very handy for reading a bunch of "normal" sectors. The WD >approach makes it possible to read MFM that does not follow >"normal" sector header standards, such as Amiga, or some TRS-80 address >marks. Yep, then again depends on what your doing too. If you building a data recovery machine a 1793 may be it. Then again you'll need a 1771 too as there were 1771 formats that were unreadable by the DD 1793. If you building a virgin CP/M machine that needs to read a smaller subset of media... 37c65 or later is far cheaper and easier. >Personally, I would have preferred the "raw" approach of the WD, but I >make no claims to be representative of the marketplace. It's only useful for the special cases. For everything else you wnat a track or cylinder without the junk. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Dec 18 13:06:29 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: 3" FDD free to good home In-Reply-To: <20011218034112.JFMR11348.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011218140629.007b0320@mailhost.intellistar.net> Glen, That sounds like a familar piece. Joe At 10:38 PM 12/17/01 -0500, you wrote: >Marked in black felt-pen on the drive: "Amstrad PCW 8256." Cable is >attached. Unit is untested and is yours for postage from Orlando FL. > >Any interest? > >Glen >0/0 > > From UberTechnoid at Home.com Tue Dec 18 14:05:50 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: 3" FDD free to good home In-Reply-To: <20011218034112.JFMR11348.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <20011218200541.PPPK29116.femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> If anyone picks this up, let me know. I have an Amstrad PCW system disk and a spare disk for data. Regards, jeff In <20011218034112.JFMR11348.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw>, on 12/17/01 at 10:38 PM, "Glen Goodwin" said: >Marked in black felt-pen on the drive: "Amstrad PCW 8256." Cable is >attached. Unit is untested and is yours for postage from Orlando FL. >Any interest? >Glen >0/0 -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From CLeyson at aol.com Tue Dec 18 13:20:05 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: FDC's (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <8c.113859c9.2950f0e5@aol.com> Try www.dialelec.com, they're UK based and specialize in obsolete silicon. No price given for the WD1773, you'll have to get a quote. They're not too expensive, I recently bought some AM2901CDC's for about 7USD each. Chris From UberTechnoid at Home.com Tue Dec 18 14:03:39 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Warp Connect V3 (was Re: OS/2) In-Reply-To: <200112172159.fBHLxUo28300@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20011218200404.ROQE29397.femail45.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Yea. The Warp Connect/warp3 fixpacks are still up there. I think support for it dies this or next year. You use a browser plugin called "RSUINST" to install the fixpacks via the web. Regards, Jeff In <200112172159.fBHLxUo28300@shell1.aracnet.com>, on 12/17/01 at 01:59 PM, "Zane H. Healy" said: >> disks for the Bonus Pack. OS/2 Warp Connect version 3 (Blue box, >> includes DOS/Windows support) is on CD-ROM, as is the Bonus Pack. It >> does have two diskettes from which to boot the system for >> installation though. Is there a specific disk(s) that you need to >> replace for Warp 3? I also have OS/2 for Windows version 2.1. >Are the updates still available for this anywhere? For some reason, I'm >in the process of building a PP200 up as an OS/2 system and Warp 3 is the >newest version I've got. (OK, ok, I admit, I'm building it to play >"Galactic Civilizations".) Anyway, I'd kind of like to get it updated to >the current patch level or whatever it's called in OS/2 (been way to long >since I switched to the Mac from OS/2). > Zane -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Tue Dec 18 14:30:45 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Getting OT: RE: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218002121.00a7cba0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > All day long these women would work and discuss husbands/boyfriends, > soap operas, and gossip about everyone in town. Originally, men were > used for this kind of work and too many of them went nuts after a > while. There were women working in this room that had been around for > a few years, with some having 10-20 years of experience in this > particular job. > > It's been proven that women can handle tedious, meticulous jobs day in > and day out better than the average man. After seeing what those women > in the meter room did all day long, it was easy for me to see just how > quickly a guy would go bonkers doing that kind of work. The gossip is what keeps them going. The work is secondary :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 18 15:11:25 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDE@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: r. 'bear' stricklin [mailto:red@bears.org] > IRIX only runs on MIPS. Some other SVR3ish software I can't > remember the > name of ran on the m68k boxes. I talked to the guy who handles the IRIS 2000/3000 FAQ, and he seemed to think that it was "IRIX." I would be interested if you find out more details. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jss at subatomix.com Tue Dec 18 15:13:41 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011218151158.O90495-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Christopher Smith wrote: > I also haven't looked -- but have never seen any DG Nova stuff around. > It may be relatively rare. The only Nova I've seen around here was in a collection near the DFW area. So I'd call them uncommon, but not rare, in this area. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 18 15:17:30 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: r. 'bear' stricklin [mailto:red@bears.org] > Guess what? It's for a PS/2. > What you have is an IRISVISION display adapter. Check out > Louis Ohland's > "9595 Ardent Tool of Capitalism" page. I have just such a board that was a pull from an RS/6000. I wasn't aware that many of them sold for use in PS/2. In fact, their use in the machines (IIRC) was originally just for testing purposes because they booted faster than the RS/6000s ;) Nice board. Wish I could do something with it (Like get an rs/6000 and software to drive it!) :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Dec 18 15:48:32 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>; from csmith@amdocs.com on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 03:17:30PM -0600 References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011218154832.O8521275@uiuc.edu> Christopher Smith said: > > I have just such a board that was a pull from an RS/6000. I wasn't aware > that many of them sold for use in PS/2. In fact, their use in the machines > (IIRC) was originally just for testing purposes because they booted faster > than the RS/6000s ;) > > Nice board. Wish I could do something with it (Like get an rs/6000 and > software to drive it!) :) hmmm...I'd only need the latter :) anyone have any idea where I could find it? might the drivers come with AIX 4.3.2? I sort of doubt it, but you never know... > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011218/d856bce4/attachment.bin From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 18 15:13:43 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] > Humm... but this still won't work for PSX game discs right? > Since they > have a bad checksum, a standard burner can't write them back > out, because > it will correct the checksum? Well, you've answered your own question there. My understanding is that it _is_ the burner that does it. You can copy playstation game discs fine, but it would require a firmware patch to your CD burner. (So I hear...) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Tue Dec 18 03:14:39 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: Message-ID: <000c01bbf78c$f9f3b0c0$7cc9f0c3@cx> Rebuild a system the customer is satisfied with? Risk his process again? Rather not. Wim ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Robertson To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:07 AM Subject: Re: "Geeks" and licensing > > > > >The book by Brooks {The Mythical Man Month)should be mandatory reading for > >every software man. It is fun too. > >I have very good memories from projects where you could first build a > >useful > >small part of the system. The client could then update his requirements > >and > >you could get all the bugs out and when all was stable you would build the > >next part of the system. The client has a useful system very early in the > >project and because you work together with the client (the user) in an > >early > >stage of the project, errors in the specification and the programs never > >last long. Cost control is also facilitated. You have a satisfied customer > >most of the time during development and very much so in the end. This was > >for projects for up to 1.000.000 lines of code. > > > > > IMHO, Steve McConnell's "Code Complete" should be required knowledge for all > software engineers. > > Prototyping is certainly a valuable tool for developing complex > applications. However, one must remember that the prototype is a means to > the end and not the final product. Once the application is defined, you > should throw away the prototype and build the system from scratch using the > knowledge gained from the prototype. By doing that, you'll have complete > requirements, a more efficient design, and happy customers. > > In real life, it's pretty tough to convince management that you should start > all over. The typical reaction is to put the prototype in a box and sell as > is :-( > > SteveRob > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue Dec 18 17:23:35 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Core pictures (was cleaning 8/A) References: <200112162057.PAA28263@drs-esg.com> Message-ID: <3C1FCFF7.8010000@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, as promised, here are the pictures I took while having one board open. Very delicate stuff indeed. This one is 16 k x 12 bit core. http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu/~schadow/VAX/core/ regards -Gunther David Gesswein wrote: >>From: Chad Fernandez >> >>I've never seen core in real life...... how small are the wires? >> >> -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Dec 18 17:31:35 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: NCR 386/486 UNIX - Anyone remember this? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218172544.03089c20@127.0.0.1> Guys, My wife recently got a job at a bridal retail chain that uses NCR 386/486 UNIX for the POS terminals and financial matters relating to the operation of the store. It's running on what appears to be an NCR 386 (or 486?) with a tape backup, and services four WYSE terminals and a printer. Seems to be a standard setup for the stores in this chain. There is also a WYSE CE terminal connected via ADSL to a Citrix server - but that is naturally a piece of sh*t. Always crashing. Situation normal for Windows. Just curious if anyone here has had experience with this flavor of UNIX. I used to work at Radio Shack and at the time we ran the entire store from a 386 running XENIX. It handled *EVERYTHING*. Performance of the whole system was quite impressive. This NCR system seems to be rock solid and has decent performance. Just curious. It's neat to see something other than Windows "in the wild". - Matt Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Dec 18 17:44:09 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: NCR 386/486 UNIX - Anyone remember this? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218172544.03089c20@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3C1FD4C9.30D2A11@olf.com> Matthew Sell wrote: > Guys, > > My wife recently got a job at a bridal retail chain that uses NCR 386/486 > UNIX for the POS terminals and financial matters relating to the operation > of the store. > > It's running on what appears to be an NCR 386 (or 486?) with a tape backup, > and services four WYSE terminals and a printer. Seems to be a standard > setup for the stores in this chain. > > There is also a WYSE CE terminal connected via ADSL to a Citrix server - > but that is naturally a piece of sh*t. Always crashing. Situation normal > for Windows. > > Just curious if anyone here has had experience with this flavor of UNIX. I > used to work at Radio Shack and at the time we ran the entire store from a > 386 running XENIX. It handled *EVERYTHING*. Performance of the whole system > was quite impressive. This NCR system seems to be rock solid and has decent > performance. > > Just curious. It's neat to see something other than Windows "in the wild". > This is the machine I was using right out of college. We used to sell this as the system to run our application on. Remember all those nights trying to port our COBOL (yes, COBOL) application that used to run on a NCR unix box (aka UNISYS machine) (and a mini from NCR, which I cant seem to remember the name) to the 486-based NCR unix machine. Great stuff then! In fact, the NCR unix is just a repackaging of the AT&T Unix. This was about the time AT&T bought NCR. These machines were MCA-based.... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 18 18:39:11 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips Message-ID: <10112190039.ZM26098@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Anybody got the pinout for the following: DEC 380 bus receiver DEC 97401 bus receiver DEC 384 (or DEC 5384, which I think is the same) bus driver Are any of these similar to an 8880, 8881, or 8640? Or to any of the 8Txx or any more modern ICs? I'm trying to fix an interrupt fault on my PDP-8/E, and having a bit of trouble following the circuit. My M8650 isn't quite the same as the diagrams in the Maintenance Manual :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 18 16:16:02 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Fwd: [TUHS] Anybody want 3B2 or 6300+ stuff Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218161517.0233ee38@pc> >From: Warren Toomey >To: The Unix Heritage Society >Reply-To: wkt@tuhs.org >X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] >Subject: [TUHS] Anybody want 3B2 or 6300+ software/documentation/hardware? >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:49:30 +1100 (EST) > >All, > Aharon Robbins just passed this on to me. Maybe some >of you are interested in this. > Warren > >----- Forwarded message from Aharon Robbins ----- > > From: Aharon Robbins > To: wkt@tuhs.org > Subject: would any of this be useful to TUHS? > >I am cleaning out my attic. What does that mean?? It means a lot of >AT&T documentation and software needs to find a home to avoid ending >in the dumpster. I have documentation and sfotware for the 6300+ and the >3B2. Some of it still in the original shrink-wrap. > >And yes, this is on topic. I also have quite a bit of software and >documentation for the Unix-PC as well. Much of this still in the >original packaging. OS, Development sets, utilities. everything must >go. I also have three complete Unix-PC's and two without disks or >heads but with functional motherboards. At least all of this stuff >was functional the last time I actually turned any of them on. I have >one that I just fired up (that's already been claimed) to test it and >it works fine, so i assume the same is true of the others. I would >probably be willing to let all of them go at this point. Nice machines, >but my PDP's and VAXen need the room. > >Now the only string. I will not ship any of this. it is located in >NEPA in the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area and must be collected. And it >must be soon. > >One person can claim it all and then ship it to others if they wish, >or people can email me asking for particular packages. First come, >first served. If you know of any other places where there might be >interest in the 3B2 or 6300+ stuff feel free to forward this message. > >All the best. >bill >----- End of forwarded message from Aharon Robbins ----- >_______________________________________________ >TUHS mailing list >TUHS@minnie.tuhs.org >http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 18 16:13:45 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDE@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 18, 2001 03:11:25 PM Message-ID: <200112182213.RAA10810@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Christopher Smith once stated: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: r. 'bear' stricklin [mailto:red@bears.org] > > > IRIX only runs on MIPS. Some other SVR3ish software I can't > > remember the > > name of ran on the m68k boxes. > > I talked to the guy who handles the IRIS 2000/3000 FAQ, and he seemed to > think that it was "IRIX." I would be interested if you find out more > details. SGI was formed in the 80s and at that time, they used the 68K for their systems. By the late 80s/early 90s they had moved over to the MIPS architecture, so I assume that early versions of IRIX where for the 68K and possibly for both (during the transition phase). -spc (Used IRIX in the early 90s and kind of like it ... ) From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 18 16:23:07 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <200112182213.RAA10810@conman.org> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFDE@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218162108.02321b30@pc> At 05:13 PM 12/18/2001 -0500, you wrote: > SGI was formed in the 80s and at that time, they used the 68K for their >systems. By the late 80s/early 90s they had moved over to the MIPS On a side note (like everything else on this list) I saw a pile of Indy at the UW-Madison (WI) surplus sale last week. Someone said they were fully loaded 100 Mhz systems. $25 each. However, having previously checked the sale manifest and checking prices on eBay, I was saddened to see that Indys go for about $50. It also looked like you could pull the 72-pin RAM and sell it alone for more than that. - John From ken at seefried.com Tue Dec 18 16:42:39 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <200112160310.fBG3A1Y17869@ns2.ezwind.net> References: <200112160310.fBG3A1Y17869@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20011218224239.774.qmail@mail.seefried.com> For me: I like to find systems with a National Semi 32000 series chip, esp. NS32532. Not rare, per se, but very uncommon. For really rare, I'd think: A Lilith or a Ceres An Ampere APL machine Anything iAPX-432 Ken From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 18 16:45:29 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > hmmm...I'd only need the latter :) anyone have any idea where I could find > it? might the drivers come with AIX 4.3.2? I sort of doubt it, but you never > know... I know of somebody who's got some RS/6000 machines which he believes might contain the drivers on their internal disks. He hasn't started any of them up yet, though, AFAIK. He's promised me a copy of the drivers if he has them, but as to when he'll get around to checking, your guess is as good as mine. I have heard (please let me know if you find out differently) that they weren't part of any AIX distribution media, but were separate. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 18 16:53:23 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011218154832.O8521275@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > > Nice board. Wish I could do something with it (Like get an rs/6000 and > > software to drive it!) :) > > hmmm...I'd only need the latter :) anyone have any idea where I could find > it? might the drivers come with AIX 4.3.2? I sort of doubt it, but you never > know... The only double- and triple-board MCA adapters I know AIX ever directly supported were the "Sabine" 24-plane cards. They were reputedly, in software and hardware design, a horrible kludge. IBM dropped support like a hot rock with v4. I'm pretty sure they weren't made or designed by SGI. I do know I've been into several 7012-series RS6ks that had PS/2 graphics boards in them. No way they ever worked; somebody had tried them & never bothered to pull 'em when it didn't work. I have at least one Sabine adapter around anybody's welcome to. If you're running pre-v4 AIX, it might be cool. Also a grayscale (1-1) MCA adapter. Also several GXT150 boards for the 7011-250 pizza boxes. Also cable info for the GXT150 & GXT500 adapters. Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 18 16:19:56 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:19 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <000c01bbf78c$f9f3b0c0$7cc9f0c3@cx> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218161730.02ef49d8@pc> At 10:14 AM 12/18/2001 +0100, W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: >> >The book by Brooks {The Mythical Man Month)should be mandatory reading >for >> >every software man. It is fun too. I've met Prof. Brooks several times. He'd attend the SIGGRAPH conferences. The first time, he walked up to my booth to buy our product. I just about fell over when I read his badge. I remember being quite choked up. I gave him anything he wanted, and refused to take payment, in exchange for the value his book gave me over the years. - John From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Dec 18 16:56:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B8B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Rebuild a system the customer is satisfied with? Risk his > process again? Rather not. A special place in Hell awaits those unwilling to take risks... -dq From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Dec 18 17:12:01 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B8B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: DQ wrote in part (part of the original attribution lost -- sorry): > > Rebuild a system the customer is satisfied with? Risk his > > process again? Rather not. > > A special place in Hell awaits those unwilling to take risks... The real issue is whether the customer is truly satisfied with what has been delivered. More than once I've seen the movie where the customer is initially happy with what was delivered, but over time returns with change orders that eventually bend the original architecture into what could only be described as a truly tortured shape -- with the expected consequences for the reliability and maintainability of the system. Driven far enough you end up with few other choices _but_ to take it from the top. Chris Who is dealing with Just Such A Customer at the moment... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 18 17:36:24 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: Message-ID: <02d901c1881c$cf105360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Chris Kennedy said: > {Rant} > "pre-alpha", whatever the hell _that_ is Use it internally. At own risk. No support implied? Demo only, etc. > All of these behaviors are the consequence of lying Hate it too. Hope you know though that not all honest facts are not shared with all possible observers. Just out of curiosity, what is your companies' size and "industry"? I just came out of a 1000emp sized marketing company. (Talk about lies) Could your company be worse than that? John A. didn't think so From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Dec 18 17:12:07 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: FDC's (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: <002c01c187d5$8463c780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <001e01c187cb$4c221f20$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011218180957.00acf330@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >There was a thread a while back about the WD 1770/72/73, which seemed to have >disappeared. > >I recently learned that you get a hit on WD1773 at >http://www.identek.com/templates/identek/index.cfm?MD=JUG00248. I haven't had >the courage to ask for a quote yet ... I have. I received a reply (not to break the "private email" rule) basically summed up as "we don't deal in such small quantities... try here:" http://www.questlink.com/ http://www.allied.avnet.com/ http://www.bb-elec.com/ http://www.digikey.com/DigiKeySearch.html http://www.farnell.co.uk/Welcome/welcome.jhtml - UK http://www.hh.avnet.com/search.html http://www.jameco.com/ http://www.marshall.com/ http://www.newark.com/ http://www.reichelt.de/ - Germany http://www.schuricht.de/ - Germany http://www.radioshack.com/ http://www.maplin.co.uk/ - UK http://www.buerklin.de/ - Germany http://www.spoerle.com/ - (an Arrow company) http://www.arrow.com/ http://www.mouser.com/ http://www.rs-components.com/rs/ I've been looking for 1773's for some time now (I have several unsoldered Disto controller boards I need chips/dox for... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 18 15:24:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Paper Tape Fun In-Reply-To: <20011218032618.24640.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> from "Loboyko Steve" at Dec 17, 1 07:26:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1689 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011218/629136ee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 18 15:29:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: 3" FDD free to good home In-Reply-To: <20011218034112.JFMR11348.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Dec 17, 1 10:38:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 668 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011218/4c96f261/attachment.ksh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 18 15:45:48 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <002701c18808$fd2d39c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3C1FB90C.BCEFAE76@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > From: Ben Franchuk > Right on very few if any! Most went to byte wide or multiples of byte > wide... > give a guess why? 4 bit TTL? IBM-360's? ASCII ? 0044 * STILL I AM GLAD WE ARE NOT USING OLD FASHIONED 0046 * PUNCHED CARDS AS IBM WOULD STILL HAVE US DO 0048 * EVEN TODAY IF THE PEE-CEE HAD NOT CAME OUT =) > I've always felt that 24bvits was a good starting point > for a clean slate machine or a stretched PDP-8. By Stretched 8 I mean > just add 12 bits to the right and extend everything else the same amount, > gives you a 500k page address and a 16mb machine address. So what > if the instruction set is thin if done with modern FPGAs an easy 100ns > (12x faster) instruction cycle time would be fine. If you don't keep ISZ and I/O instructions the same speed that seems quite possible. The PDP-X runs at 8 MHZ and executes 1 memory cycle every 500 ns. http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ That is 3x faster than a PDP-8/I with PDP timing. > At 48 bits it gets better as then your not horozontal encoding. > Also if you use a prom to do the opcode to microaddress translation > it looks nicer and cuts a lot out. Also using the 2901 registers for > the PC and all saves a bit too. Still, as you noticed a lof of storage > bits for managing traffic are incurred. A combinational state machine > is simpler in some respects but far less flexible when it comes to > fixing a bent opcode. Bent opcode ... that is where you use the BIG HAMMER! In the design I was prototyping I had a lot of short instructions thus a 512x32? rom was more than ample. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Dec 18 16:07:57 2001 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Need an SCO System V Xenix boot/recovery disk Message-ID: <20011218135724.C91401-100000@agora.rdrop.com> So... down a path I've not gone in a while. Just got a system for my business (it's classic too, I'll ramble on that later) and part of it is a Wyse 386 box running SCO System V Xenix. That's the good part... Now, the bad... while cleaning it up (about 6 lbs of dust in the box) and getting ready to image off the hard drive (backups are always a good thing, no?), either I fumble fingered something or my drive test/backup program was having a 'bad hair day', cause it nuked the boot record on the drive! (AARGH!) 'Course... just to add insult to injury, it then went happily ahead and ran off the image of the hard drive just like I wanted in the first place, minus a valid boot record of course. B^{ So... would anyone perhaps have an appropriate boot disk on a 3.5HD floppy that I could get, and any convienient hints on how to regenerate the boot for this thing? Many thanks; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Note: the 'computergarage.org' domain is currently offline. The original 'Garage' site (URL above) is still out there and is currently being updated. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Dec 18 16:56:09 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Need an SCO System V Xenix boot/recovery disk Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] > Now, the bad... while cleaning it up (about 6 lbs of dust in > the box) and > getting ready to image off the hard drive (backups are always a good > thing, no?), either I fumble fingered something or my drive > test/backup > program was having a 'bad hair day', cause it nuked the boot > record on the > drive! (AARGH!) Oops. :) > 'Course... just to add insult to injury, it then went > happily ahead and > ran off the image of the hard drive just like I wanted in the > first place, > minus a valid boot record of course. B^{ Well, you have a good image. That's a start. > So... would anyone perhaps have an appropriate boot disk on a 3.5HD > floppy that I could get, and any convienient hints on how to > regenerate > the boot for this thing? Was it just the MBR that got nuked? Lots of times on intel systems, those are similar if not identical. All the boot-loader magic is handled in the second-stage loader near the beginning of the partition, or something like that. :) If that is the case, you may be able to replace it with the MBR from an MS-DOS bootable hard-disk. Also the DOS command FDISK/MBR is known to restore the MBR to such a state that at least MS-DOS will boot. If Xenix expected the standard DOS MBR, you'd be all set. So you could try making an MS-DOS bootable floppy, copying FDISK.EXE to the floppy, booting the machine from that and running the command. If the Xenix MBR really is different, then you may still be able to get away with using the DOS loader, provided there's a second-stage boot-loader in the right place on the Xenix partition. You would just use FDISK to set the bootable partition flag on the partition you'd like to boot, and the DOS boot-loader will try to pass control to a second-stage on that partition. Once you got in, of course, you could re-install the proper Xenix boot-loader (instboot?) I would back up the MBR first. I think there are utilities with most boot-loader apps that will do that. (Note that this is more-or-less speculative, but I'd like to know if you try it, and specifically, whether it works) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 18 19:02:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips In-Reply-To: <10112190039.ZM26098@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 19, 1 00:39:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1341 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/3df86b57/attachment.ksh From wpointon at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 19:51:40 2001 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (bill pointon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the warp server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in return ? ------- billp On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 09:21 AM, Doc wrote: > > I'm pretty sure I have a copy of Warp 4 Server, if I can find it. I'll > look this weekend. ISTR, though, hearing that the OS/2 CDs don't image > well. Does anybody know whether that's true? I maintain that a > byte-for-byte dd will work on *anything*. Very Slowly. :) > > Doc > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Mike Ford wrote: >> >> I am pretty sure I have a CD of OS/2 Warp 3, if nobody responds email >> me >> and I will make an image file. >> >> If somebody has a later version I am interested in the image file as >> well. > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 18 22:26:07 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, bill pointon wrote: > hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the warp > server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in > return ? ------- billp Hmmm, your firstborn? Nah, probably just something cool someday. If you have an upload site, there's not even postage. Did I mention it's the smp version? Doc From vance at ikickass.org Tue Dec 18 20:08:11 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > > > speaking of old SGIs...did any of them use microchannel? > > Nope. Multibus, VME, GIO, XIO, EISA, PCI.. never MCA. Indeed. > > The reason I ask is that I have an old (1987 or '88, I think), > > SGI-branded 2-board video adapter that plugs into 2 MCA slots. The > > only other things I can imagine it might be for are an RS/6k, but that > > seems doubtful, or a PS/2 or some such PC thing, which seems even less > > likely... > > Guess what? It's for a PS/2. > > What you have is an IRISVISION display adapter. Check out Louis Ohland's > "9595 Ardent Tool of Capitalism" page. Actually, the card was designed to do CAD on the first generation of RS/6000's. PS/2 support was added (barely) as an afterthought. Peace... Sridhar From fernande at internet1.net Tue Dec 18 23:02:04 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3C201F4C.C05413D6@internet1.net> The IrisVision is one of the few boards that will do RS6000 or PS/2. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Christopher Smith wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: r. 'bear' stricklin [mailto:red@bears.org] > > > Guess what? It's for a PS/2. > > > What you have is an IRISVISION display adapter. Check out > > Louis Ohland's > > "9595 Ardent Tool of Capitalism" page. > > I have just such a board that was a pull from an RS/6000. I wasn't aware > that many of them sold for use in PS/2. In fact, their use in the machines > (IIRC) was originally just for testing purposes because they booted faster > than the RS/6000s ;) > > Nice board. Wish I could do something with it (Like get an rs/6000 and > software to drive it!) :) > > Regards, > > Chris From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 20:54:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Fwd: pdp-11/34 for rescue Message-ID: Here's a PDP-11/34 with RK05 drives available. If I had somewhere to put it, I wouldn't mind picking it up myself as it's only a few hours from here. But no room....so, I'm passing it on to the group. Please reply to the original poster shown below. Jeff >Status: RO >Reply-To: >From: "Richard Faison" >To: >Subject: pdp-11/34 for rescue >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:47:30 -0500 >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >Importance: Normal > >have "won" a rack full of pdp-11/34 (w/2 rko5a drives) that needs a good >home >any suggestions e-mail me @ day-o@cavtel.net or call (757) 865-0000 x244 >(days) >or (757) 850-4220 (evenings) > >thanks -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 18 20:57:44 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys Message-ID: OK, Bill, you wanted a PCI-based RS/6000? One of our clients is trading up to an H80, and IBM just lowballed them on their trade-in. They're putting thei old server on the market. It ain't a classic or even uncommon, but I thought some of you guys might be interested. S70A 4-way 4G RAM SSA - just adapters, they're keeping the drawer. 8 ethernet adapters, IIRC. 2 10/100, 6 10bT, subject to my CRAFT Syndrome PCI graphics, I think GXT120. They're looking at about a $10,000 price tag, and a March 1 release date. This guy has been lovingly & lavishly maintained. Anybody interested can contact me for detailed specs. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 18 21:24:57 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: from "Doc Shipley" at Dec 18, 2001 08:57:44 PM Message-ID: <200112190324.fBJ3Ovu31031@shell1.aracnet.com> > S70A 4-way > 4G RAM > SSA - just adapters, they're keeping the drawer. > 8 ethernet adapters, IIRC. 2 10/100, 6 10bT, subject to my CRAFT > Syndrome > PCI graphics, I think GXT120. Nice system! We're using a few at work. Not what I would call a hobbyist system though. Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 18 22:04:23 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: <200112190324.fBJ3Ovu31031@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Nice system! We're using a few at work. Not what I would call a hobbyist > system though. > Me neither, but I'd have never thought of S/390s as toys either.... Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 18 22:29:48 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Dec 18, 2001 10:04:23 PM Message-ID: <200112190429.fBJ4Tmk00829@shell1.aracnet.com> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Nice system! We're using a few at work. Not what I would call a hobbyist > > system though. > > > > Me neither, but I'd have never thought of S/390s as toys either.... > > Doc I think it's a question of how much money the toy costs. I know I had one system that cost $250,000.00 originally, I payed $75 for the remains of it (all the cables were missing), and I only got it for the tapedrive. My point is, we don't know what the S/390's cost, of course I don't think I want to think about what they cost in terms of electricity and storage! OTOH, if I could afford $10-40K I'd be very tempted to call Compaq up and buy a DS20 or ES40 to run VMS on. In some ways I'm thankfull I don't, because I don't think I'd want to have to explain why I wanted to spend that much on a computer to my wife :^) Zane From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Dec 18 21:56:59 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... Message-ID: <109.a8baf71.29516a0b@aol.com> In a message dated 12/18/01 10:38:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, doc@mdrconsult.com writes: << I had sort of gotten the impression that PCs don't count on this list. I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's really why I bought it. I also have a Model 25 386dx/16 which is one of my favorites. It had a token-ring ISA adapter, as well as an 8-bit ethernet adapter I can't ID, no hard-drive, and was set up to netboot. I finally found the J-leg 387 for it, stuck in a 500m drive with EZ-drive, and run PC-DOS & Lemmings, mostly. >> The 8570 you have is not bad, but way too small and not really easy as far as drive expansion goes. put the max amount of 16meg memory in it and os2 will thank you. mod80 is much better for expansion. that 386 8525 is neat, but not really rare. I wouldnt consider any PS/2 rare except for maybe the PS/2 E which I would just call uncommon. Happy Festivus! From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 18 22:35:01 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <109.a8baf71.29516a0b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > The 8570 you have is not bad, but way too small and not really easy as far as > drive expansion goes. put the max amount of 16meg memory in it and os2 will > thank you. That requires an expansion board, right? The little info I can find suggests that 3 2M SIMMs is max, onboard. Doc From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 18 23:18:41 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Ancient "toy computer" Message-ID: <20011219052050.JQXK14456.imf10bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Okay, in order to pose this question I have to come clean here and admit my age: Right around 1960 or '61 (I was five or six years old at the time) I was given a toy computer. I suppose it was meant to represent a mainframe (what else could it have been, given the era?) and there was a rectangular (4 x 8? 5 X 7?) array of blinkenlights on the front of it. There was also a tray in the front which accepted a small punched card. A set of these cards came with the toy. Each card had a multiple-choice question printed on it, as well as four answers to choose from, numbered A through D. Additional card sets could be purchased separately. When a card was placed into the tray and the tray was then closed, the blinkenlights would display a "random" pattern for a couple of seconds (always the same pattern) and then the array would display the correct answer to the printed question, A B C or D. It didn't take long for me to be able to read the holes in the cards, and I even "modified" a couple of them so that the toy displayed an incorrect answer. Does *anyone* remember this thing? It must have cost a few bucks back then. What was it called? Glen 0/0 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 18 23:22:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: FDC's (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <001e01c187cb$4c221f20$6b7b7b7b@ajp> <5.1.0.14.2.20011218180957.00acf330@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <005201c1884d$1aa58900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> They list the quantities they have and, in some cases with some parts, they're small enough that I'd have to buy two lots to get enough parts. In some cases they've only got 6 parts at one location. I've searched some of those sites you listed, and they've either never had the WD (e.g. AVNET) parts at all or haven't had them since the '80's when they went out of production. The WD1773 wasn't that widely avaiable when it was in full production, BTW. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:12 PM Subject: Re: FDC's (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > >There was a thread a while back about the WD 1770/72/73, which seemed to have > >disappeared. > > > >I recently learned that you get a hit on WD1773 at > >http://www.identek.com/templates/identek/index.cfm?MD=JUG00248. I haven't had > >the courage to ask for a quote yet ... > > I have. I received a reply (not to break the "private email" rule) > basically summed up as "we don't deal in such small quantities... try here:" > > http://www.questlink.com/ > http://www.allied.avnet.com/ > http://www.bb-elec.com/ > http://www.digikey.com/DigiKeySearch.html > http://www.farnell.co.uk/Welcome/welcome.jhtml - UK > http://www.hh.avnet.com/search.html > http://www.jameco.com/ > http://www.marshall.com/ > http://www.newark.com/ > http://www.reichelt.de/ - Germany > http://www.schuricht.de/ - Germany > http://www.radioshack.com/ > http://www.maplin.co.uk/ - UK > http://www.buerklin.de/ - Germany > http://www.spoerle.com/ - (an Arrow company) > http://www.arrow.com/ > http://www.mouser.com/ > http://www.rs-components.com/rs/ > > I've been looking for 1773's for some time now (I have several unsoldered > Disto controller boards I need chips/dox for... > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. > > (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on > their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 18 21:30:28 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... Message-ID: Hi, all. I had sort of gotten the impression that PCs don't count on this list. I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's really why I bought it. I also have a Model 25 386dx/16 which is one of my favorites. It had a token-ring ISA adapter, as well as an 8-bit ethernet adapter I can't ID, no hard-drive, and was set up to netboot. I finally found the J-leg 387 for it, stuck in a 500m drive with EZ-drive, and run PC-DOS & Lemmings, mostly. Main questions are, how uncommon are they (I know how cool they are), is either one worth anything, and is there a contemporary Unix that'll run on the model 70? Um, that's actually available I mean. All I need is another Ultrix quest. Corollary questions: I mentioned earlier that I've found PS/2 adapters in 7012 series RS/6ks. I still have 'em. The 8514/A with the 512k daughterboard is recognized in the model 70 by the reference utility, but Warp pukes on it, and insists on 640x480x16 VGA settings. Did I miss something? Do I need to "copy the options disk" even though Setup already sees it? And, I have the Orchid board with the oddball video output. Are there cables for that? Will it drive a standard multi-sync display? Is it worth messing with? It's so nice to have real brains to pick. Doc From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 18 23:52:43 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > The 8570 you have is not bad, but way too small and not really easy as far as > > drive expansion goes. put the max amount of 16meg memory in it and os2 will > > thank you. > > That requires an expansion board, right? The little info I can find > suggests that 3 2M SIMMs is max, onboard. I thought I was the only PS/2 fan here :P Depending on the model of your board, you could have a max of 6mb or 8mb. To add more memory, you would need an expansion board. One of the better boards I that I used to use in model 60 machines was made by Kingston and took up to 4 72pin simms. One of the best non IBM references I ever found for the PS/2 line is a book called "Upgrading and Repairing PCs", written by Scott Mueller, and published by QUE. The last edition that had the PS/2 info in it was the 4th edition. I never owned a hardcopy of the 4th edition, but I have an electronic version of it that came on cdrom with the 10th edition. I completely wore out my 2nd and 3rd editions of the book. (If anyone has a 4th edition in good shape that they don't want, I'd be more than willing to pay shipping.) -Toth From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 18 19:58:50 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011219065406.FPMT14868.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:08:21 -0600 (CST) > From: Tothwolf > To: Classic Computers > Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a > > 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have > > plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 > > Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It > > had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's > > really why I bought it. > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE > drive. Correct plug into riser from rear where FD drives plugs from front. It is MCA drive. Very few got upgraded with SCSI MCA card or peecee IDE card and HD put in. The orignal MCA drives is small, slooow and usually dead. Hence mine has SCSI stuff put in. > > Main questions are, how uncommon are they (I know how cool they are), > > is either one worth anything, and is there a contemporary Unix that'll > > run on the model 70? Um, that's actually available I mean. All I need is > > another Ultrix quest. 70'ers worth very little, 5 or 10 each complete as is. Real gems are A or B models. A is 386dx25 w/ 32K cache, 4 slot 72pin, B is 486DX-25 on same mainboard as A. eg: 8570-Axx or -Bxx look on black label on rear and on front near base thru a small window. Rarer still, may have either IBM or reply upgrade board installed aka peecee in a '70er. Whooo! If you have bunch of IBM 2MB 85ns simms, chips is same for 2MB 80ns simms, only move a resistor jumper to empty pads to convert 85 into 80ns simms for A and B series, and few other models that requires 80ns simms. I do that to all of my 2MB simms. > If I remember correctly, the 8514/A adapter needed an 8514 monitor to do > anything more than 640x480x16 since it used odd frequencies. Maybe a > multisync will work if the sense pins are jumpered correctly on the DB-15? Any clone multisync monitors worth their salt can sync to that I 1024x768 that 8514/A puts out. Reason for using newer monitors is that 8514 is heavy, bit bulky and usually dim (they were made in 1987-1988 era), only works at 640x480 @60Hz and shimmering, blurry 1024x768. Do not buy 8513, they always require new fly even they works, focus output on flyback always fails. Be prepared to rebuild IBM FD w/ new capacitors and relube the lead screw and it's bearing. Mine was gummed up. Compatiable 44pin edge connector FDs fits across 50, 50z, all 70 and many 80. Only difference is different bezels depending on different brands of FDs. These bezels snaps off by pressing on barbs from rear, no, they only fit 50, 50z and 70 only. Other bezels for 80, 65 60 doesn't fit other models. > -Toth Wizard True blue of 70-A and P75 needs screen debugged, and small slew of Macs: 475, LCIII+, IIci and empty IIci hacked up box, 8500 and parts of other models. Newer three AMD clones two socket As and slot A. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 00:08:21 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a > 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have > plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 > Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It > had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's > really why I bought it. Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE drive. > Main questions are, how uncommon are they (I know how cool they are), > is either one worth anything, and is there a contemporary Unix that'll > run on the model 70? Um, that's actually available I mean. All I need is > another Ultrix quest. I have no idea about worth, I guess they are only worth what we PS/2 fans are willing to pay for them. Personally I probably wouldn't pay more than maybe $25-30 or so for one, with or without a monitor. As far as an operating system goes, I know Linux supports the MCA arch, but most Linux distributions do not ship a boot kernel with MCA support compiled in. Since you have a small drive, you'd also want a distribution with a small footprint. Anyone have any recommendations on a particular distribution? > Corollary questions: I mentioned earlier that I've found PS/2 adapters > in 7012 series RS/6ks. I still have 'em. The 8514/A with the 512k > daughterboard is recognized in the model 70 by the reference utility, > but Warp pukes on it, and insists on 640x480x16 VGA settings. Did I miss > something? Do I need to "copy the options disk" even though Setup > already sees it? If I remember correctly, the 8514/A adapter needed an 8514 monitor to do anything more than 640x480x16 since it used odd frequencies. Maybe a multisync will work if the sense pins are jumpered correctly on the DB-15? -Toth From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Dec 19 02:25:34 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C1FFA9E.12377.9BDEF06@localhost> Well it is heavily over-weighted by mini users but the postings go in swings from pdp and vax to Apple 2s and Amigas. Not to mention O.T. food preferences and military affairs. There are some PS2 MCA enthusiasts on the list, Superdave, and Russ Blake come to mind. I have numerous ones myself, including an 8570. I can't figure what the Model 25 you have is since I was under the impression that was an 8086 machine except for one model that had a 286 running at 10mhz. You can bring the 70 up to 16 megs and possibly more with a mem card. To me it was one of my favorite PS2 models. As to Warp choking on anything higher than 640x480 I seem to remember that was the on-board video limit of the 70. Possibly the onboard is not disabled. You can run Linux from it and ISTR that 1 or 2 of the BSDs have been ported to MCA. The comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup is an excellent mca resource and it's a very friendly group. ISTR mention of the Orchard board but someone there much more capable than I would be sure to have answers. Get back to me off-list after I've time to see if I might have an extra mem card. Unpopulated tho. You'd need true parity chips. At the moment all my IBM stuff except an 8590 XP are packed away still from my recent(relatively) move. I've got a workstation area in my dining room, another in my upstairs bedroom with workspace, Apples in my guest b-r, an 8bit room(mostly Commodore. Atari and CoCo), all with shelving, and a glassed-in upstairs porch with 5 18"x4'x5' shelving containing monitors and all-in-ones, stacked IBMs, other machines and peripherals using the remaining space and I still can't find anything. How in hell I was able to cram all of it (as well as the clones I abandoned when I moved) into a 1 b-r apartment is beyond me. Common to all collectors is the wail of "not enough space". Possibly Sellam and John Keyes solution of renting a warehouse(s) is the only way. But that would just encourage you to up the ante. " Oh I've got lots of room now" Mamas. Don't let your babies grow up to be co(mputer collectors) !! Lawrence > Hi, all. > I had sort of gotten the impression that PCs don't count on this list. > I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a > 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have > plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 > Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It > had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's > really why I bought it. > I also have a Model 25 386dx/16 which is one of my favorites. It had > a token-ring ISA adapter, as well as an 8-bit ethernet adapter I can't > ID, no hard-drive, and was set up to netboot. I finally found the J-leg > 387 for it, stuck in a 500m drive with EZ-drive, and run PC-DOS & > Lemmings, mostly. > Main questions are, how uncommon are they (I know how cool they are), > is either one worth anything, and is there a contemporary Unix that'll > run on the model 70? Um, that's actually available I mean. All I need is > another Ultrix quest. > Corollary questions: I mentioned earlier that I've found PS/2 adapters > in 7012 series RS/6ks. I still have 'em. The 8514/A with the 512k > daughterboard is recognized in the model 70 by the reference utility, > but Warp pukes on it, and insists on 640x480x16 VGA settings. Did I miss > something? Do I need to "copy the options disk" even though Setup > already sees it? > And, I have the Orchid board with the oddball video output. Are > there cables for that? Will it drive a standard multi-sync display? Is > it worth messing with? > It's so nice to have real brains to pick. > > Doc > > > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 18 23:34:39 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they Message-ID: <20011219070637.JEGZ24380.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: ajp166 > Women would work for lower wage than men doing a tedious > task that was fairly skill intensive. Story of my mom's life -- she was a master of the soldering iron, and top-of-the-line at Convair (wiring electrical harnesses in aircraft) and Swan (assembling transceivers). She had to work quickly, there was no margin for error, and she never made diddly, money-wise. I'm really grateful that she taught me how to solder at an early age, though ;>) Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 19 00:19:47 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Holiday spirit (was Re: Troll got me) Message-ID: <20011219070644.JEIH24380.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Chris > Oh, you need to come up here, and visit the heavily black neighborhoods > of Jersey City (conviently, right where my wife grew up)... there, > Kwanzaa is a big deal, and it has NOTHING to do with retailers getting > their money. It has everything to do with their not celebrating christmas > because that is whitey's holiday, and crackers are the enemy (their > terms, not mine... No thanks! I think I'll stay away from your neck of the woods! It's bad enough here! In the last five years there have been a dozen shootings and one murder within a quarter-mile radius from my shop. I keep the place looking run-down so I won't get robbed. Not to imply that all these crimes were committed by black folk -- but the fact is that most of them were . . From rickb at bensene.com Wed Dec 19 00:21:12 2001 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Ancient "toy computer" In-Reply-To: <20011219052050.JQXK14456.imf10bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <003901c18855$5c9cc460$0503eecd@bensene.com> Think-A-Tron, made by Hasbro. I had one too (and still wish I had it) These do show up on eBay from time to time. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 9:19 PM > To: classiccmp > Subject: Ancient "toy computer" > > > Okay, in order to pose this question I have to come clean > here and admit my > age: > > Right around 1960 or '61 (I was five or six years old at the > time) I was given a toy computer. I suppose it was meant to > represent a mainframe (what else could it have been, given > the era?) and there was a rectangular (4 x 8? 5 X 7?) array > of blinkenlights on the front of it. There was also a tray > in the front which accepted a small punched card. A set of > these cards came with the toy. Each card had a > multiple-choice question printed on it, as well as four > answers to choose from, numbered A through D. > Additional card sets could be purchased separately. > > When a card was placed into the tray and the tray was then > closed, the blinkenlights would display a "random" pattern > for a couple of seconds (always the same pattern) and then > the array would display the correct answer to the printed > question, A B C or D. It didn't take long for me to be able > to read the holes in the cards, and I even "modified" a > couple of them so that the toy displayed an incorrect answer. > > Does *anyone* remember this thing? It must have cost a few > bucks back then. What was it called? > > Glen > 0/0 > > > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Dec 19 00:45:35 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Ancient "toy computer" References: <003901c18855$5c9cc460$0503eecd@bensene.com> Message-ID: <00c301c18858$c36d3be0$5c2ecd18@Smith.earthlink.net> > Think-A-Tron, made by Hasbro. > I had one too (and still wish I had it) > These do show up on eBay from time to time. > There's one there right now: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1677390749 From foo at siconic.com Wed Dec 19 01:26:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Ancient "toy computer" In-Reply-To: <20011219052050.JQXK14456.imf10bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Right around 1960 or '61 (I was five or six years old at the time) I > was given a toy computer. I suppose it was meant to represent a > mainframe (what else could it have been, given the era?) and there was > a rectangular (4 x 8? 5 X 7?) array of blinkenlights on the front of > it. There was also a tray in the front which accepted a small punched > card. A set of these cards came with the toy. Each card had a > multiple-choice question printed on it, as well as four answers to > choose from, numbered A through D. Additional card sets could be > purchased separately. > > When a card was placed into the tray and the tray was then closed, the > blinkenlights would display a "random" pattern for a couple of seconds > (always the same pattern) and then the array would display the correct > answer to the printed question, A B C or D. It didn't take long for > me to be able to read the holes in the cards, and I even "modified" a > couple of them so that the toy displayed an incorrect answer. > > Does *anyone* remember this thing? It must have cost a few bucks back > then. What was it called? Glen, This fine toy is called the Think-A-Tron and was made by Hasbro. I've got one in the box (one of the few good deals I've gotten on eBay). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 06:52:54 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > Hi, all. > I had sort of gotten the impression that PCs don't count on this list. > I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a > 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have > plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 > Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It > had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's > really why I bought it. You might not want to use the original reference disk, as it probably has been updated since then, and the update will be on the FTP site (ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks/). As far as an OS, Linux and NetBSD will both work. Linux is a bit more stable, but NetBSD is the better OS, and the stability will be perfect by next release, and that should be soon. BTW, Warp 4 should run faster than Warp 3 with a small amount of RAM like that. > I also have a Model 25 386dx/16 which is one of my favorites. It had > a token-ring ISA adapter, as well as an 8-bit ethernet adapter I can't > ID, no hard-drive, and was set up to netboot. I finally found the J-leg > 387 for it, stuck in a 500m drive with EZ-drive, and run PC-DOS & > Lemmings, mostly. This machine isn't really a PS/2 in the conventional sense. Not a microchannel box. Which means it's probably less interesting than that 70. > Main questions are, how uncommon are they (I know how cool they are), > is either one worth anything, and is there a contemporary Unix that'll > run on the model 70? Um, that's actually available I mean. All I need is > another Ultrix quest. PS/2's are *extremely* common in that HUMONGOUS amounts of them were sold to (and many are still running at) many financial institutions. They are beautiful machines that are rock solid, are built like tanks, and never, ever break. > Corollary questions: I mentioned earlier that I've found PS/2 adapters > in 7012 series RS/6ks. I still have 'em. The 8514/A with the 512k > daughterboard is recognized in the model 70 by the reference utility, > but Warp pukes on it, and insists on 640x480x16 VGA settings. Did I miss > something? Do I need to "copy the options disk" even though Setup > already sees it? I believe you should use the latest option disk. BTW, there is no such thing as an "RS/6000-specific" or "PS/2-specific" option card. Microchannel is microchannel. > And, I have the Orchid board with the oddball video output. Are > there cables for that? Will it drive a standard multi-sync display? Is > it worth messing with? I could give you a copy of my technical docs for this card, if you want. > It's so nice to have real brains to pick. You're absolutely welcome. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 06:55:08 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <109.a8baf71.29516a0b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a > 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have > plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 > Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It > had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's > really why I bought it. > I also have a Model 25 386dx/16 which is one of my favorites. It had > a token-ring ISA adapter, as well as an 8-bit ethernet adapter I can't > ID, no hard-drive, and was set up to netboot. I finally found the J-leg > 387 for it, stuck in a 500m drive with EZ-drive, and run PC-DOS & > Lemmings, mostly. >> > > The 8570 you have is not bad, but way too small and not really easy as far as > drive expansion goes. put the max amount of 16meg memory in it and os2 will > thank you. mod80 is much better for expansion. that 386 8525 is neat, but not > really rare. I wouldnt consider any PS/2 rare except for maybe the PS/2 E > which I would just call uncommon. Hey SUPRDAVE, 16 MB is nowhere near the max for that machine. I have 48 megs in my 8570. Peace... Sridahr From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 07:00:36 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > > > The 8570 you have is not bad, but way too small and not really easy as far as > > > drive expansion goes. put the max amount of 16meg memory in it and os2 will > > > thank you. > > > > That requires an expansion board, right? The little info I can find > > suggests that 3 2M SIMMs is max, onboard. > > I thought I was the only PS/2 fan here :P I was one of the developers who worked on Linux/MCA. > Depending on the model of your board, you could have a max of 6mb or 8mb. > To add more memory, you would need an expansion board. One of the better > boards I that I used to use in model 60 machines was made by Kingston and > took up to 4 72pin simms. I believe the BXX series could do 16 MB on the board. Plus the 72-pin SIMMs weren't your standard plain-vanilla ones. They had PS/2 Presence Detect (PPD) feature on them. > One of the best non IBM references I ever found for the PS/2 line is a > book called "Upgrading and Repairing PCs", written by Scott Mueller, and > published by QUE. The last edition that had the PS/2 info in it was the > 4th edition. I never owned a hardcopy of the 4th edition, but I have an > electronic version of it that came on cdrom with the 10th edition. I > completely wore out my 2nd and 3rd editions of the book. (If anyone has a > 4th edition in good shape that they don't want, I'd be more than willing > to pay shipping.) I have a better source. I have the internal IBM technical manuals and schematics for every PS/2 ever made, including rare ones like the N51SX, and the 43SL. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 07:03:09 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a > > 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have > > plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 > > Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It > > had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's > > really why I bought it. > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE > drive. Nope, definitely ESDI. > > Main questions are, how uncommon are they (I know how cool they are), > > is either one worth anything, and is there a contemporary Unix that'll > > run on the model 70? Um, that's actually available I mean. All I need is > > another Ultrix quest. > > I have no idea about worth, I guess they are only worth what we PS/2 fans > are willing to pay for them. Personally I probably wouldn't pay more than > maybe $25-30 or so for one, with or without a monitor. I wouldn't even buy a non -BXX series 70. I would take it for free and find a good home for it though. > As far as an operating system goes, I know Linux supports the MCA arch, > but most Linux distributions do not ship a boot kernel with MCA support > compiled in. Since you have a small drive, you'd also want a distribution > with a small footprint. Anyone have any recommendations on a particular > distribution? As far as Linux, I would suggest Slackware, as it has an MCA bootdisk in the regular distrib, as well as an MCA kernel. However, your best bet (with an ESDI box) is probably NetBSD. > > Corollary questions: I mentioned earlier that I've found PS/2 adapters > > in 7012 series RS/6ks. I still have 'em. The 8514/A with the 512k > > daughterboard is recognized in the model 70 by the reference utility, > > but Warp pukes on it, and insists on 640x480x16 VGA settings. Did I miss > > something? Do I need to "copy the options disk" even though Setup > > already sees it? > > If I remember correctly, the 8514/A adapter needed an 8514 monitor to do > anything more than 640x480x16 since it used odd frequencies. Maybe a > multisync will work if the sense pins are jumpered correctly on the DB-15? Nope. You just need a monitor capable of the weird refresh settings. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 06:53:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You *do* know that Warp Server 4 is based on Warp 3, right, Bill? Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, bill pointon wrote: > hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the warp > server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in > return ? ------- billp From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 06:55:44 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Nice system! We're using a few at work. Not what I would call a hobbyist > > system though. > > > > Me neither, but I'd have never thought of S/390s as toys either.... Hehehehehehe... Peace... Sridhar From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 19 07:17:33 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B9D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > Nice system! We're using a few at work. Not what I would call a hobbyist > > > system though. > > > > Me neither, but I'd have never thought of S/390s as toys either.... > > Hehehehehehe... No, No, Sridhar, you've got the maniacal laugh all wrong, it's "Bwa-ha-ha!" ;) -dq From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 06:57:17 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <3C201F4C.C05413D6@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > The IrisVision is one of the few boards that will do RS6000 or PS/2. Not exactly. Any RS/6000 board will do PS/2 if you write an ADF and ADP's. Peace... Sridhar From halarewich at shaw.ca Wed Dec 19 07:03:08 2001 From: halarewich at shaw.ca (chris halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:20 2005 Subject: test ignore Message-ID: <3C20900B.87B36B8B@shaw.ca> trying out my new email address chris h From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 07:32:43 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > One of the best non IBM references I ever found for the PS/2 line is a > > book called "Upgrading and Repairing PCs", written by Scott Mueller, and > > published by QUE. The last edition that had the PS/2 info in it was the > > 4th edition. I never owned a hardcopy of the 4th edition, but I have an > > electronic version of it that came on cdrom with the 10th edition. I > > completely wore out my 2nd and 3rd editions of the book. (If anyone has a > > 4th edition in good shape that they don't want, I'd be more than willing > > to pay shipping.) > > I have a better source. I have the internal IBM technical manuals and > schematics for every PS/2 ever made, including rare ones like the N51SX, > and the 43SL. Care to share sometime? :) -Toth From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 07:53:36 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... References: <3C1FFA9E.12377.9BDEF06@localhost> Message-ID: <001d01c18894$8f885b20$6e731fd1@default> You speak the truth, as I got the warehouses I started buying more thinking I had lots of room. I forgot to leave space to be able to work on items plus be able to get to the many books I have. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: "Doc Shipley" ; Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:25 AM Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... > Well it is heavily over-weighted by mini users but the postings go in swings > from pdp and vax to Apple 2s and Amigas. Not to mention O.T. food > preferences and military affairs. There are some PS2 MCA enthusiasts on > the list, Superdave, and Russ Blake come to mind. I have numerous ones > myself, including an 8570. I can't figure what the Model 25 you have is since > I was under the impression that was an 8086 machine except for one model > that had a 286 running at 10mhz. > You can bring the 70 up to 16 megs and possibly more with a mem card. > To me it was one of my favorite PS2 models. As to Warp choking on anything > higher than 640x480 I seem to remember that was the on-board video limit of > the 70. Possibly the onboard is not disabled. > You can run Linux from it and ISTR that 1 or 2 of the BSDs have been > ported to MCA. The comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup is an excellent > mca resource and it's a very friendly group. ISTR mention of the Orchard > board but someone there much more capable than I would be sure to have > answers. > Get back to me off-list after I've time to see if I might have an extra mem > card. Unpopulated tho. You'd need true parity chips. > > At the moment all my IBM stuff except an 8590 XP are packed away still > from my recent(relatively) move. I've got a workstation area in my dining room, > another in my upstairs bedroom with workspace, Apples in my guest b-r, an > 8bit room(mostly Commodore. Atari and CoCo), all with shelving, and a > glassed-in upstairs porch with 5 18"x4'x5' shelving containing monitors and > all-in-ones, stacked IBMs, other machines and peripherals using the > remaining space and I still can't find anything. > How in hell I was able to cram all of it (as well as the clones I abandoned > when I moved) into a 1 b-r apartment is beyond me. Common to all collectors > is the wail of "not enough space". Possibly Sellam and John Keyes solution > of renting a warehouse(s) is the only way. But that would just encourage you > to up the ante. " Oh I've got lots of room now" > Mamas. Don't let your babies grow up to be co(mputer collectors) !! > > Lawrence > > > > Hi, all. > > I had sort of gotten the impression that PCs don't count on this list. > > I have a 5870-121 that I snarked recently, with 4 megs of RAM and a > > 120M ESDI drive. I'm wondering what I want to put on it as OS. I have > > plenty of Linux/NetBSD critters. I was thinking OS/2, but I threw v3.0 > > Warp on Saturday night, but it's slow as dirt with 4 megs. Oh, yeah. It > > had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I think that's > > really why I bought it. > > I also have a Model 25 386dx/16 which is one of my favorites. It had > > a token-ring ISA adapter, as well as an 8-bit ethernet adapter I can't > > ID, no hard-drive, and was set up to netboot. I finally found the J-leg > > 387 for it, stuck in a 500m drive with EZ-drive, and run PC-DOS & > > Lemmings, mostly. > > Main questions are, how uncommon are they (I know how cool they are), > > is either one worth anything, and is there a contemporary Unix that'll > > run on the model 70? Um, that's actually available I mean. All I need is > > another Ultrix quest. > > Corollary questions: I mentioned earlier that I've found PS/2 adapters > > in 7012 series RS/6ks. I still have 'em. The 8514/A with the 512k > > daughterboard is recognized in the model 70 by the reference utility, > > but Warp pukes on it, and insists on 640x480x16 VGA settings. Did I miss > > something? Do I need to "copy the options disk" even though Setup > > already sees it? > > And, I have the Orchid board with the oddball video output. Are > > there cables for that? Will it drive a standard multi-sync display? Is > > it worth messing with? > > It's so nice to have real brains to pick. > > > > Doc > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply to: > lgwalker@mts.net > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Dec 19 06:47:03 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: pdp-11/34 for rescue Message-ID: <01Dec19.090114est.119172@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Here's more information regarding the PDP-11/34 that I posted last night. Again, please reply to the poster. Jeff >Status: U >To: Jeff Hellige >From: day-o@cavtel.net >Subject: Re: pdp-11/34 for rescue >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:38:24 GMT > >Jeff, > Thanks for the quick response. It's located in Hampton, Virginia and >contained in a logoed model H960 cabinet with an 861c power supply and 7 >disks of questionable worth. > >Owen Day > > > >--------------------------------------------- >This message was sent using Cavalier Telephone WebMail. >http://www.cavtel.net -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 07:41:56 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > Oh, yeah. It had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I > > think that's really why I bought it. > > You might not want to use the original reference disk, as it probably has > been updated since then, and the update will be on the FTP site > (ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks/). Sadly, in the last few years IBM has started to make a total mess of their ftp site. It's starting to make me miss the old BBS. > As far as an OS, Linux and NetBSD will both work. Linux is a bit more > stable, but NetBSD is the better OS, and the stability will be perfect by > next release, and that should be soon. >From personal experience, which os is best can only be determined from the particular task you want the machine to perform. I've found Linux to be better suited for my desktop machines, since Linux seems to support the really odd and the bleeding edge hardware before BSD gets the same support. I have nothing against BSD, and often find BSD to be better suited for long running, extremely stable systems where hardware things don't need to change much. -Toth From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 08:20:27 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > > Oh, yeah. It had the original reference disk in the floppy drive. I > > > think that's really why I bought it. > > > > You might not want to use the original reference disk, as it probably has > > been updated since then, and the update will be on the FTP site > > (ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks/). > > Sadly, in the last few years IBM has started to make a total mess of their > ftp site. It's starting to make me miss the old BBS. Yeah. I know. 8-( > > As far as an OS, Linux and NetBSD will both work. Linux is a bit more > > stable, but NetBSD is the better OS, and the stability will be perfect by > > next release, and that should be soon. > > >From personal experience, which os is best can only be determined from the > particular task you want the machine to perform. I've found Linux to be > better suited for my desktop machines, since Linux seems to support the > really odd and the bleeding edge hardware before BSD gets the same > support. I have nothing against BSD, and often find BSD to be better > suited for long running, extremely stable systems where hardware things > don't need to change much. But for his system, BSD would be better, since it supports all his hardware, and it runs faster than Linux on old, slow machines. Peace... Sridhar From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 07:45:02 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE > > drive. > > Nope, definitely ESDI. That's strange...I pulled out my old worn out books and both say the 70 shipped with IDE drives. Maybe IBM shipped the 70 with both kinds of drives? -Toth From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 08:23:11 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE > > > drive. > > > > Nope, definitely ESDI. > > That's strange...I pulled out my old worn out books and both say the 70 > shipped with IDE drives. Maybe IBM shipped the 70 with both kinds of > drives? Have you seen these drives? They're nothing like IDE. They don't even use the ESDI standard one-signal/two-data cables. It plugs into a doohickey similar to the ST-506 doohickey on the Mod 50. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 08:18:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > One of the best non IBM references I ever found for the PS/2 line is a > > > book called "Upgrading and Repairing PCs", written by Scott Mueller, and > > > published by QUE. The last edition that had the PS/2 info in it was the > > > 4th edition. I never owned a hardcopy of the 4th edition, but I have an > > > electronic version of it that came on cdrom with the 10th edition. I > > > completely wore out my 2nd and 3rd editions of the book. (If anyone has a > > > 4th edition in good shape that they don't want, I'd be more than willing > > > to pay shipping.) > > > > I have a better source. I have the internal IBM technical manuals and > > schematics for every PS/2 ever made, including rare ones like the N51SX, > > and the 43SL. > > Care to share sometime? :) Sure. I could scan, probably, but it would take a while. Peace... Sridhar From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed Dec 19 07:39:39 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <3C1FFA9E.12377.9BDEF06@localhost> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219083905.00ae4100@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 02:25 AM 12/19/01 -0600, you wrote: >I can't figure what the Model 25 you have is since >I was under the impression that was an 8086 machine except for one model >that had a 286 running at 10mhz. They also had an 80286 version of the 25 as they did for the model 30. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale I accept PayPal To subscribe to automatic updates send a blank e-mail to: online-garage-sale-subscribe@yahoogroups.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 08:21:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219083905.00ae4100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 02:25 AM 12/19/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I can't figure what the Model 25 you have is since > >I was under the impression that was an 8086 machine except for one model > >that had a 286 running at 10mhz. > > They also had an 80286 version of the 25 as they did for the model 30. And also a 386 and 486 (! -- rare) version of the 8525. Peace... Sridhar From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 08:56:06 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... References: Message-ID: <006101c1889d$4a3ded60$6e731fd1@default> I had one of the 486's but it fell off of my truck as I was going down the highway and was totaled. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boatman on the River of Suck" To: "Gene Ehrich" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:21 AM Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > > > At 02:25 AM 12/19/01 -0600, you wrote: > > >I can't figure what the Model 25 you have is since > > >I was under the impression that was an 8086 machine except for one model > > >that had a 286 running at 10mhz. > > > > They also had an 80286 version of the 25 as they did for the model 30. > > And also a 386 and 486 (! -- rare) version of the 8525. > > Peace... Sridhar > > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 09:00:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <006101c1889d$4a3ded60$6e731fd1@default> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > I had one of the 486's but it fell off of my truck as I was going down > the highway and was totaled. Ouch, man. I feel your pain. 8-( Peace... Sridhar From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 19 21:46:23 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope, only ESDI. Some of the 50's have a simialr style MFM but none had factory IDE. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tothwolf Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 7:45 AM To: Classic Computers Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE > > drive. > > Nope, definitely ESDI. That's strange...I pulled out my old worn out books and both say the 70 shipped with IDE drives. Maybe IBM shipped the 70 with both kinds of drives? -Toth From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 19 07:53:15 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... Message-ID: <008801c18894$a23f9da0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> I have a PS2 50Z I use as I have an HP scanner and interface for it. Nice machine though at 1mb it's kinda tight for memory even by 286 standards. The upside is I have OS/2 V3 warp for it. Allison From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed Dec 19 08:27:23 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <008801c18894$a23f9da0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219092640.00ad4560@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 08:53 AM 12/19/01 -0500, you wrote: >I have a PS2 50Z I use as I have an HP scanner and interface for it. >Nice machine though at 1mb it's kinda tight for memory even by 286 >standards. > >The upside is I have OS/2 V3 warp for it. > >Allison It also had zero wait state --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale I accept PayPal To subscribe to automatic updates send a blank e-mail to: online-garage-sale-subscribe@yahoogroups.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 08:45:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219092640.00ad4560@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 08:53 AM 12/19/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I have a PS2 50Z I use as I have an HP scanner and interface for it. > >Nice machine though at 1mb it's kinda tight for memory even by 286 > >standards. > > > >The upside is I have OS/2 V3 warp for it. > > > >Allison > > It also had zero wait state And, unlike the 50, the 50Z could be expanded to 2 MB RAM. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 08:27:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <008801c18894$a23f9da0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Allison wrote: > I have a PS2 50Z I use as I have an HP scanner and interface for it. > Nice machine though at 1mb it's kinda tight for memory even by 286 > standards. > > The upside is I have OS/2 V3 warp for it. A stock 50Z won't run OS/2 past version 2.0. Although it will fly on 1.3. Peace... Sridhar From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 19 21:46:20 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Which one used a pin type 286? I think it was the Z and I think the regular 50 used a PLCC type. I have two Intel plug in processor upgrades I want to get rid of and taking bids (so to speak). I can scan a pic of one and send it to anyone curious. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Boatman on the River of Suck Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:28 AM To: Allison Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Allison wrote: > I have a PS2 50Z I use as I have an HP scanner and interface for it. > Nice machine though at 1mb it's kinda tight for memory even by 286 > standards. > > The upside is I have OS/2 V3 warp for it. A stock 50Z won't run OS/2 past version 2.0. Although it will fly on 1.3. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 19 07:55:06 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... Message-ID: <009301c18894$c6ead2a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Linux MCA would ahve appeal but likely wont happen for a 286 boxen Allison -----Original Message----- From: Boatman on the River of Suck To: Tothwolf Cc: Classic Computers Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:18 AM Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... >On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: >> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >> > >> > > The 8570 you have is not bad, but way too small and not really easy as far as >> > > drive expansion goes. put the max amount of 16meg memory in it and os2 will >> > > thank you. >> > >> > That requires an expansion board, right? The little info I can find >> > suggests that 3 2M SIMMs is max, onboard. >> >> I thought I was the only PS/2 fan here :P > >I was one of the developers who worked on Linux/MCA. > >> Depending on the model of your board, you could have a max of 6mb or 8mb. >> To add more memory, you would need an expansion board. One of the better >> boards I that I used to use in model 60 machines was made by Kingston and >> took up to 4 72pin simms. > >I believe the BXX series could do 16 MB on the board. Plus the 72-pin >SIMMs weren't your standard plain-vanilla ones. They had PS/2 Presence >Detect (PPD) feature on them. > >> One of the best non IBM references I ever found for the PS/2 line is a >> book called "Upgrading and Repairing PCs", written by Scott Mueller, and >> published by QUE. The last edition that had the PS/2 info in it was the >> 4th edition. I never owned a hardcopy of the 4th edition, but I have an >> electronic version of it that came on cdrom with the 10th edition. I >> completely wore out my 2nd and 3rd editions of the book. (If anyone has a >> 4th edition in good shape that they don't want, I'd be more than willing >> to pay shipping.) > >I have a better source. I have the internal IBM technical manuals and >schematics for every PS/2 ever made, including rare ones like the N51SX, >and the 43SL. > >Peace... Sridhar > > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 08:32:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <009301c18894$c6ead2a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Allison wrote: > Linux MCA would ahve appeal but likely wont happen for a 286 boxen NetBSD/i386 would be a better choice for a 386+ machine without IBM INT-MOL SCSI adapters. Linux/MCA would be the best choice for machines with 386+ and INT-MOL SCSI adapters. For 286 machines, if you want to run UNIX, your choices are primariy MINIX and ELKS. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 08:09:04 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > You might not want to use the original reference disk, as it probably has > been updated since then, and the update will be on the FTP site > (ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks/). It has been updated and I'm using the update. But having the original disk made it sweet. > As far as an OS, Linux and NetBSD will both work. Linux is a bit more > stable, but NetBSD is the better OS, and the stability will be perfect by > next release, and that should be soon. BTW, Warp 4 should run faster than > Warp 3 with a small amount of RAM like that. Really? I guess I'd succumbed to the idea that "newer = bloated". I'll try it out, if I can find my parallel-port CD drive. > I believe you should use the latest option disk. BTW, there is no such > thing as an "RS/6000-specific" or "PS/2-specific" option card. > Microchannel is microchannel. Does that mean there are adf's for the ethernet adapter that's considered to be "RS/6000 only"? That would help a lot. > > And, I have the Orchid board with the oddball video output. Are > > there cables for that? Will it drive a standard multi-sync display? Is > > it worth messing with? > > I could give you a copy of my technical docs for this card, if you want. If the docs include cable P/N and pinouts, I do want. Thanks. Doc From fernande at internet1.net Wed Dec 19 09:59:21 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... References: Message-ID: <3C20B959.CA48B874@internet1.net> Tothwolf wrote: > I thought I was the only PS/2 fan here :P Nope, I like PS/2's too. I have a Model 80 with a Reply Powerboard. > One of the best non IBM references I ever found for the PS/2 line is a > book called "Upgrading and Repairing PCs", written by Scott Mueller, and > published by QUE. The last edition that had the PS/2 info in it was the > 4th edition. I never owned a hardcopy of the 4th edition, but I have an > electronic version of it that came on cdrom with the 10th edition. I > completely wore out my 2nd and 3rd editions of the book. (If anyone has a > 4th edition in good shape that they don't want, I'd be more than willing > to pay shipping.) I have the 5th edition and didn't even know ant previous editions had any PS/2 info, until recently. I ran across a 1st edition at Goodwill and picked it up cheap. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 19 10:09:21 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467409@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! Wizard True blue of 70-A and P75 needs screen debugged, and small ! slew of Macs: 475, LCIII+, IIci and empty IIci hacked up box, 8500 ! and parts of other models. Newer three AMD clones two socket As and ! slot A. Huh? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 19 21:46:21 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 70 came out ONLY with ESDI, the Reply upgrade and other aftermarket controllers would give IDE, but not the factory. I have tons of various ESDI drives I need to sell off too, all 3.5" from 20mb to (maybe) 120mb. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Boatman on the River of Suck Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:23 AM To: Tothwolf Cc: Classic Computers Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE > > > drive. > > > > Nope, definitely ESDI. > > That's strange...I pulled out my old worn out books and both say the 70 > shipped with IDE drives. Maybe IBM shipped the 70 with both kinds of > drives? Have you seen these drives? They're nothing like IDE. They don't even use the ESDI standard one-signal/two-data cables. It plugs into a doohickey similar to the ST-506 doohickey on the Mod 50. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 08:17:12 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225B9D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > > > Nice system! We're using a few at work. Not what I would call a > hobbyist > > > > system though. > > > > > > Me neither, but I'd have never thought of S/390s as toys either.... > > > > Hehehehehehe... > > No, No, Sridhar, you've got the maniacal laugh all wrong, it's > > "Bwa-ha-ha!" > > ;) Oh. Sorry. I'll correct. 8-) BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Peace... Sridhar From foo at siconic.com Wed Dec 19 11:58:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-topic crap RE: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > > > > > Nice system! We're using a few at work. Not what I would call a > > hobbyist > > > > > system though. > > > > > > > > Me neither, but I'd have never thought of S/390s as toys either.... > > > > > > Hehehehehehe... > > > > No, No, Sridhar, you've got the maniacal laugh all wrong, it's > > > > "Bwa-ha-ha!" > > > > ;) > > Oh. Sorry. I'll correct. 8-) > > BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Don't mind Doug. He obviously has never had anything to laugh maniacally about. "BWAHAHAHA" is the laugh you use when you want to make someone feel like an ass for saying or doing something stupid. Maniacal laugh is administered thusly: MU-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vance at ikickass.org Wed Dec 19 12:58:59 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-topic crap RE: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Nice system! We're using a few at work. Not what I would call a > > > hobbyist > > > > > > system though. > > > > > > > > > > Me neither, but I'd have never thought of S/390s as toys either.... > > > > > > > > Hehehehehehe... > > > > > > No, No, Sridhar, you've got the maniacal laugh all wrong, it's > > > > > > "Bwa-ha-ha!" > > > > > > ;) > > > > Oh. Sorry. I'll correct. 8-) > > > > BWAHAHAHAHAHA! > > Don't mind Doug. He obviously has never had anything to laugh maniacally > about. "BWAHAHAHA" is the laugh you use when you want to make someone > feel like an ass for saying or doing something stupid. > > Maniacal laugh is administered thusly: > > MU-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! Oh. Sorry again. I'll correct once more. *ahem* MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 19 12:37:50 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-topic crap RE: Off-Topic Toys References: Message-ID: <3C20DE7D.5945BE81@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Oh. Sorry again. I'll correct once more. > > *ahem* > > MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! > > Peace... Sridhar Any more laughs like that and you'l have change your tagline to "Welcome to the DARK side of the FORCE!" -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 19 13:36:42 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Anyone recognize this (Viking) computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just found 2 of these rack mount CPUs using Western Digital CPU Box is labled VIKING Circuit cards (approx 8"by 10") include 3 Western Digital cards (CPU, FDC and 4S+PIO card) CPU uses 4 40 pin chips (Like P machine), And 4 Viking cards (memory controller, 2X Battery backed static RAM, and some AV control stuff) 1 box has 2 5" floppy drives other box has 2 5" drives plus 1 narrow 8" drive Was used for stage lighting, approx 1980 vintage Any clues? Peter Wallace From msell at ontimesupport.com Wed Dec 19 13:10:51 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-topic crap RE: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011219130903.00a93de8@127.0.0.1> With regards to the Far Side cartoon, the laugh needs to be followed by the obligatory phrase: "FOOLS! I'll destroy them ALL!" : ) - Matt >Don't mind Doug. He obviously has never had anything to laugh maniacally >about. "BWAHAHAHA" is the laugh you use when you want to make someone >feel like an ass for saying or doing something stupid. > >Maniacal laugh is administered thusly: > >MU-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and >Danger http://www.vintage.org Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Dec 19 08:54:14 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: from Doc Shipley at "Dec 18, 1 08:57:44 pm" Message-ID: <200112191454.GAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > S70A 4-way > 4G RAM > SSA - just adapters, they're keeping the drawer. > 8 ethernet adapters, IIRC. 2 10/100, 6 10bT, subject to my CRAFT > Syndrome > PCI graphics, I think GXT120. Nice! Mildly out of my price range tho' :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- LET'S GO FORWARD ... INTO THE PAST! ---------------------------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 09:32:38 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: <200112191454.GAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > S70A 4-way > > 4G RAM > > SSA - just adapters, they're keeping the drawer. > > 8 ethernet adapters, IIRC. 2 10/100, 6 10bT, subject to my CRAFT > > Syndrome > > PCI graphics, I think GXT120. > > Nice! Mildly out of my price range tho' :-) Yeah, but personally, I'd rather have one of the B50s they aren't selling. That S70 is a power-hungry, noisy beast. And with Digi's standard drivers for the 64-port DigiBoards, 540 serial terms total, it was taking ~2 hours to boot. Doc From red at bears.org Wed Dec 19 10:32:50 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > Yeah, but personally, I'd rather have one of the B50s they aren't > selling. I've been looking at the B50s reeeal close myself lately. As recently as a few weeks ago IBM was selling them direct for <$2500. It's awfully tempting. More on topic, I'm also on the lookout for an RT PC to go with this AIX 2 media kit I found recently. ok r. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 11:16:39 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I've been looking at the B50s reeeal close myself lately. As recently as a > few weeks ago IBM was selling them direct for <$2500. It's awfully > tempting. They're sweet units. The only real limitation compared to the 43P-150 is the number of expansion slots. Not a problem on a "private" unit. They're a really good deal for the $$$. > More on topic, I'm also on the lookout for an RT PC to go with this AIX 2 > media kit I found recently. Um, yeah. If I find 2 you can have one. I saw 20 or 30 go through Surplus the last year at UT. Be still, my thievin' heart.... I haven't seen one available in several years. Doc From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Dec 19 11:38:25 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys In-Reply-To: ; from doc@mdrconsult.com on Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 11:16:39AM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20011219113824.W8521275@uiuc.edu> OK, sort of on this topic... I have an RS/6000 41T. This machine is a PPC 601 @ 80Mhz. Now, I know that IBM made a 43T that was, as far as I've been able to determine, the same machine except that it had a 603 @ 160 (150?) Mhz. Does anyone know if it's possible to upgrade my processor without doing something like a whole system board swap? I know that 603s are pretty easy to find, but I don't think that a whole 43T system board would be... Doc said: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > > I've been looking at the B50s reeeal close myself lately. As recently as a > > few weeks ago IBM was selling them direct for <$2500. It's awfully > > tempting. > > They're sweet units. The only real limitation compared to the 43P-150 > is the number of expansion slots. Not a problem on a "private" unit. > They're a really good deal for the $$$. > > > More on topic, I'm also on the lookout for an RT PC to go with this AIX 2 > > media kit I found recently. > > Um, yeah. If I find 2 you can have one. I saw 20 or 30 go through > Surplus the last year at UT. Be still, my thievin' heart.... I haven't > seen one available in several years. > > Doc - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/80cb56a0/attachment.bin From jss at subatomix.com Wed Dec 19 15:37:25 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image Message-ID: <20011219152802.L92903-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> I need an image of the 4th MS-DOS 6.22 3.5" disk, the 'extra program' disk. My disk seems to have been lost while moving things around in my house. TIA. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 16:03:09 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image In-Reply-To: <20011219152802.L92903-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I need an image of the 4th MS-DOS 6.22 3.5" disk, the 'extra program' > disk. My disk seems to have been lost while moving things around in my > house. TIA. That's available for download here & there as the "supplemental" disk. If Google or archie don't yield, I think I have it archived. Doc From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Wed Dec 19 16:15:56 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image References: <20011219152802.L92903-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <001301c188da$d73afd60$88f8fea9@98box> There's a 4th one? Hmm... i only got 3 with my comp... if anyone has this, would they mind sendin it along to me too?? -Lanny ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeffrey S. Sharp To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:07 PM Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image > I need an image of the 4th MS-DOS 6.22 3.5" disk, the 'extra program' > disk. My disk seems to have been lost while moving things around in my > house. TIA. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 21:34:03 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image In-Reply-To: <001301c188da$d73afd60$88f8fea9@98box> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Lanny Cox wrote: > There's a 4th one? Hmm... i only got 3 with my comp... if anyone has this, > would they mind sendin it along to me too?? You guys heard of Google? "ms-dos 6.22 supplemental" First hit: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q117600 Download from there. About 16 cookies just from tha page, tho. :( Doc From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 19 21:46:24 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image In-Reply-To: <001301c188da$d73afd60$88f8fea9@98box> Message-ID: No there is only 3- the 4th of 6.22 is the "supplement" disk that has items from previous versions that MS felt only "power users" would need and could get free or download. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lanny Cox Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:16 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image There's a 4th one? Hmm... i only got 3 with my comp... if anyone has this, would they mind sendin it along to me too?? -Lanny ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeffrey S. Sharp To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:07 PM Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image > I need an image of the 4th MS-DOS 6.22 3.5" disk, the 'extra program' > disk. My disk seems to have been lost while moving things around in my > house. TIA. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 21:57:45 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image In-Reply-To: <001301c188da$d73afd60$88f8fea9@98box> Message-ID: Um, please excuse the tone of the previous post. I was having a crappy phone call, and my ire went sideways. My apologies. Doc From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 19 21:46:26 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image In-Reply-To: <20011219152802.L92903-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: www.bootdisks.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 3:37 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image I need an image of the 4th MS-DOS 6.22 3.5" disk, the 'extra program' disk. My disk seems to have been lost while moving things around in my house. TIA. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From meltlet at fastmail.fm Wed Dec 19 18:13:45 2001 From: meltlet at fastmail.fm (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:21 2005 Subject: NCR 386/486 UNIX - Anyone remember this? In-Reply-To: <3C1FD4C9.30D2A11@olf.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011218172544.03089c20@127.0.0.1> <3C1FD4C9.30D2A11@olf.com> Message-ID: <1008807228.3733.9.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> > > My wife recently got a job at a bridal retail chain that uses NCR 386/486 > > UNIX for the POS terminals and financial matters relating to the operation > > of the store. > > > > It's running on what appears to be an NCR 386 (or 486?) with a tape backup, > > and services four WYSE terminals and a printer. Seems to be a standard > > setup for the stores in this chain. > application that used to run on a NCR unix box (aka UNISYS machine) (and a > mini from NCR, > which I cant seem to remember the name) to the 486-based NCR > unix machine. Great stuff then! In fact, the NCR unix is just a repackaging Wow! This reminds me of a machine i've got sitting in storage for me in scotland - must remember to collect it sometime... Apparently it's a 4-way 486 SMP box with passive backplane, which ran NCR UNIX. Came out of bank though, hard disks had to be physically trashed - the whole 2 cabinets of SCSI disks all were put thru with a hammer... From zachary at attdallas.com Wed Dec 19 18:30:06 2001 From: zachary at attdallas.com (zachary) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <008e01c188ed$8dac71c0$6701a8c0@net> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zachary len gibson.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 756 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/13d26d91/zacharylengibson.vcf From zachary at attdallas.com Wed Dec 19 18:31:53 2001 From: zachary at attdallas.com (zachary) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <009801c188ee$5ba94b20$6701a8c0@net> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zachary len gibson.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 756 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/aee604ee/zacharylengibson.vcf From zachary at attdallas.com Wed Dec 19 18:39:19 2001 From: zachary at attdallas.com (zachary) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <009d01c188ef$3a8a7bc0$6701a8c0@net> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zachary len gibson.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 756 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/a1599b64/zacharylengibson.vcf From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 19 19:01:48 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: M8650 async board problem Message-ID: <10112200101.ZM27258@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Now I'm really puzzled. After spending the evening playing with my M8650 serial board, and armed with the pinouts this time, I still have an interrupt problem. The fault is that the usual operations don't disable the interrupt from the board. As far as I can see from the PDP-8/E Maintenance Manual, pressing CLEAR on the panel should enable the interrupts, while issuing a KIE instruction with AC11 = 0 should disable them. Have I understood this correctly? Looks like it does the reverse (I ought to have checked that KIE with AC11=1 disables it on this board, but I forgot, and it's too cold and late to go back to the workshop right now. I'll do it tomorrow). The fault must have been noticed at some time in the past, as someone has cut the trace to CP1 (INT RQST L output to the bus). If I bridge the cut, the interrupts remain on all the time, which I suspect is why I can't get FOCAL to run. At this point I should mention that my M8650 isn't labelled as a -YA version, though it has the 19.66MHz crystal and the jumpers to run at 300 baud. It has several very neat modifications made with green wire-wrap wire, tacked down in the manner of DEC ECOs, but nothing that looks like it alters the interrupt flipflop operation. The board etch says "M8650 D", "ASYNCHRONOUS DATA CONTROL", "PCC 3874" and it has "441E" stamped on one of the magenta handles. According to the Maintenance Manual, INIT H is buffered and inverted, and fed to the SET input of the flipflop (which is a 7474). Well, on mine it's fed to the CLR input. However, according to the MM, the "1" output (which I'd call the Q output, pin 9) enables interrupts if high, and is available at CB1, the test point. On mine, pin 8 (not-Q) is connected to CB1 and used to enable interrupts by driving one side of E33. So far so good, if a little surprising. But DATA 11 is fed to the D input as per the MM (buffered and gated with I/O PAUSE L but not inverted). So KIE with AC11 = 0 clears the flipflop, which sets not-Q, which enables interrupts. This is not what the diagnostics expect, and predictably, they fail, halting at the location that means the interrupt is not turning off when it should. BTW, I assume that a high level on DATA 11 corresponds to a logic '1'. Should I just swap the connections to the SET and CLR, and Q and not-Q on the 7474? Or am I missing something? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chobbs at socal.rr.com Wed Dec 19 08:30:13 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Toys? References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011218161730.02ef49d8@pc> Message-ID: <3C20A475.B2D42144@socal.rr.com> > Anyone here collect calculators? Or (more in line with the subject) electronic toys such as Speak and Spell? (There's a Speak and Spell emulator at http://sass.retrogames.com/ but I haven't tried it yet) But what I'm really looking for is a Remco FX machine (a sound effects generator that came out in the early 1980's...I *think* it was based on TI's old analog synthesizer chip, but I'm not so sure...) From jss at subatomix.com Wed Dec 19 10:52:14 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Toys? In-Reply-To: <3C20A475.B2D42144@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <20011219104522.K92469-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, charles hobbs wrote: > Anyone here collect calculators? Or (more in line with the subject) > electronic toys such as Speak and Spell? I had a Speak-n-Spell and a Speak-n-Math when I was young, but they were sold in a garage sale. Doh! I can still remember the sound one of them saying something "is in wrong place" (I think) and the sound of the Speak-n-Spell echoing the alphabet. Strange, I've always been extremely skilled at both math and English. I wonder if it was helped early on by my use of those toys. If I'm ever tricked into or forced to have kids of my own, they will have both a -Spell and a -Math. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Dec 19 11:20:23 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Toys? In-Reply-To: <20011219104522.K92469-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at "Dec 19, 1 10:52:14 am" Message-ID: <200112191720.JAA08172@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I had a Speak-n-Spell and a Speak-n-Math when I was young, but they were > sold in a garage sale. Doh! > > I can still remember the sound one of them saying something "is in wrong > place" (I think) and the sound of the Speak-n-Spell echoing the alphabet. Number Stumper on Speak-and-Math. "Number right: ..., Number in wrong place: ..." "Eight tries. The number is ... seven." -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: Don't abandon hope: your Tom Mix decoder ring arrives tomorrow. --- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 11:25:48 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Toys? In-Reply-To: <20011219104522.K92469-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: > > Anyone here collect calculators? Or (more in line with the subject) > > electronic toys such as Speak and Spell? > I had a Speak-n-Spell and a Speak-n-Math when I was young, but they were > sold in a garage sale. Doh! Percom made an interface for the TRS-80 to control the Speak-and-Spell. I sold a few of those and the Speak-and-Spells at Foothill or VCF a few years ago. From foo at siconic.com Wed Dec 19 12:07:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Toys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Percom made an interface for the TRS-80 to control the > Speak-and-Spell. I sold a few of those and the Speak-and-Spells at > Foothill or VCF a few years ago. I got one of those a few years ago but I don't think it was from you. That's what got me collecting Speak N Spells (in case I ever wanted to convert one...you had to do some electronic modifications to the SNS to make it work with the interface). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Dec 19 12:00:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Toys? In-Reply-To: <3C20A475.B2D42144@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, charles hobbs wrote: > Anyone here collect calculators? Or (more in line with the subject) > electronic toys such as Speak and Spell? Yes (both). > (There's a Speak and Spell emulator at http://sass.retrogames.com/ but > I haven't tried it yet) Will wonders (and emulation) never cease? > But what I'm really looking for is a Remco FX machine (a sound effects > generator that came out in the early 1980's...I *think* it was based > on TI's old analog synthesizer chip, but I'm not so sure...) Never heard of it, but sounds cool. Why not write an emulator for it? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From chobbs at socal.rr.com Wed Dec 19 08:32:39 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Honkey References: Message-ID: <3C20A507.F339671E@socal.rr.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > "hood" is a newer term, but I remember hearing ofay and otay on episodes of > the Little Rascals, from back in the 30's... O-tay? Maybe (someone trying to pronounce OK). Ofay is cussing and you probably wouldn't have heard *that*. > > > "cracker" is a southern version of "honky", never heard it until I went to > texas for basic training. That's from "whip-cracker" back in the slave days... From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 19 21:50:39 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Honkey In-Reply-To: <3C20A507.F339671E@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: Step off man (yeah I her lots of "brutha talk") anyway "otay" is buckwheat saying "okay" as you mention, and I knew the meaning of ofay...as do I know mofo, suka, etc. I used to get off the buss daily (at 8pm) for work in front of the Cabrini-Green housing project in Chicago and when I had classes at IIT it was in the heart of the ebonic section of Chicago. As I mentioned earlier, I'm also the son of a Chicago cop that worked nothing but "bad neighborhoods" as the other areas were too boring. I also went 4 yrs to JF Kennedy HS in Chicago and it was probably 60/40 white/black then and we had plenty of riots too. Made the movie "teachers" with Nick Nolte about JFK HS in NYC look tame. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of charles hobbs Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:33 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honkey Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > "hood" is a newer term, but I remember hearing ofay and otay on episodes of > the Little Rascals, from back in the 30's... O-tay? Maybe (someone trying to pronounce OK). Ofay is cussing and you probably wouldn't have heard *that*. > > > "cracker" is a southern version of "honky", never heard it until I went to > texas for basic training. That's from "whip-cracker" back in the slave days... From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Dec 19 08:53:17 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: from Doc at "Dec 18, 1 10:26:07 pm" Message-ID: <200112191453.GAA02136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the warp > > server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in > > return ? ------- billp > Hmmm, your firstborn? Name the movie: "We'll kill every first-born son!" "No, too Jewish." -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Dec 19 09:08:19 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <200112191453.GAA02136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 19, 01 06:53:17 am Message-ID: <200112191508.KAA11697@wordstock.com> > > > > hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the warp > > > server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in > > > return ? ------- billp > > > Hmmm, your firstborn? > > Name the movie: > > "We'll kill every first-born son!" > "No, too Jewish." > hmmm... Sounds like a Monty Python movie... "Life of Brian"? Did John Cleese say the "No, too Jewish" line? Cheers, Bryan pope From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Dec 19 08:38:20 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <200112191508.KAA11697@wordstock.com> References: <200112191508.KAA11697@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <01Dec19.105234est.119404@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > Name the movie: >> >> "We'll kill every first-born son!" >> "No, too Jewish." >> > >hmmm... Sounds like a Monty Python movie... "Life of Brian"? Did John Cleese >say the "No, too Jewish" line? It sounds like Monty Python or a Mel Brooks movie. In fact, it sounds like something that may have been said in 'Blazing Saddles' when Headly Lamar is trying to figure out how to get ownership of the town of Rockridge. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 09:59:06 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <01Dec19.105234est.119404@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <20011219155906.32450.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Name the movie: > >> > >> "We'll kill every first-born son!" > >> "No, too Jewish." > >> > > > Did John Cleese say the "No, too Jewish" line? > > it sounds like something that may have been said in 'Blazing Saddles' > when Headly Lamar is trying to figure out how to get ownership of the > town of Rockridge. Bingo. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Dec 19 11:23:08 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20011219155906.32450.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Dec 19, 1 07:59:06 am" Message-ID: <200112191723.JAA07232@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > >> "We'll kill every first-born son!" > > >> "No, too Jewish." > > Did John Cleese say the "No, too Jewish" line? > > it sounds like something that may have been said in 'Blazing Saddles' > > when Headly Lamar is trying to figure out how to get ownership of the > > town of Rockridge. > Bingo. That's the one. Although I don't know how you confused Harvey Korman with John Cleese :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one. -- Phil White -------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 09:33:39 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <200112191453.GAA02136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Name the movie: > > "We'll kill every first-born son!" > "No, too Jewish." That's gotta be Woody Allen.... Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 19 11:13:37 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <200112191453.GAA02136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > > hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the warp > > > server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in > > > return ? ------- billp > > Hmmm, your firstborn? On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Name the movie: > "We'll kill every first-born son!" > "No, too Jewish." Blazing Saddles. Now be nice and Warp the guy. From Gary.Messick at itt.com Wed Dec 19 09:21:34 2001 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD704468942@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:spectre@stockholm.ptloma.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 9:53 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OS/2 > > > > > hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i > would love the warp > > > server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would > you want in > > > return ? ------- billp > > > Hmmm, your firstborn? > > Name the movie: > > "We'll kill every first-born son!" > "No, too Jewish." > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * > ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- > Mission: Impossible - > Blazing Saddles of course! ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Dec 19 10:06:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225BA9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Hmmm, your firstborn? > > Name the movie: > > "We'll kill every first-born son!" > "No, too Jewish." Life of Brian, or History of the World, Part I? Still waiting for part II, "Jews in Space"... -dq From rschaefe at gcfn.org Wed Dec 19 15:46:06 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: Message-ID: <011801c188d6$e0378b80$fe00a8c0@Y5F3Q8> > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, bill pointon wrote: > > > hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the warp > > server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in > > return ? ------- billp > > Hmmm, your firstborn? > Nah, probably just something cool someday. If you have an upload site, > there's not even postage. Did I mention it's the smp version? Did you ever find a site? I might be able to swing something, if I can get a copy too... ^_^ > > Doc Bob From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Dec 19 20:40:03 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <15d.60abf3e.2952a983@aol.com> In a message dated 12/19/01 4:58:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, rschaefe@gcfn.org writes: << > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, bill pointon wrote: > > > hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the warp > > server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in > > return ? ------- billp > > Hmmm, your firstborn? > Nah, probably just something cool someday. If you have an upload site, > there's not even postage. Did I mention it's the smp version? Did you ever find a site? I might be able to swing something, if I can get a copy too... ^_^ > > Doc >> agreed, would be cool to get a copy. I have smp version of 2.1 but want something newer. Warp server is basically version 3 with the server goodies added. From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Dec 19 21:04:47 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Venix question In-Reply-To: <15d.60abf3e.2952a983@aol.com> References: <15d.60abf3e.2952a983@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm in need of the groups opinion...would it be worth while changing the OS on my Pro380 from POS to Venix 2.0? Also, is there a way of getting Venix to install on a RD52 drive? The docks I've seen indicate that it won't. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 21:42:27 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <15d.60abf3e.2952a983@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Did you ever find a site? I might be able to swing something, if I can get > a copy too... ^_^ > > agreed, would be cool to get a copy. I have smp version of 2.1 but want > something newer. Warp server is basically version 3 with the server goodies > added. OK. It's all moot until I get back to Texas and see if i can find it. I don't mind sharing at all, and it looks like a common ftp or download site might be best. (Or I can rar it & mass email 40 5M files...) I'll post when i have an image and we can go from there. Doc From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 22:29:43 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE > > > > drive. > > > > > > Nope, definitely ESDI. > > > > That's strange...I pulled out my old worn out books and both say the 70 > > shipped with IDE drives. Maybe IBM shipped the 70 with both kinds of > > drives? > > Have you seen these drives? They're nothing like IDE. They don't even > use the ESDI standard one-signal/two-data cables. It plugs into a > doohickey similar to the ST-506 doohickey on the Mod 50. Yes, I have a dead one around here someplace. It uses a card edge connector across the back edge of the drive. -Toth From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 19 08:59:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <000301c188a1$4744fbe0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk >But then I find 6800/6809 code more readable than "You Know Who" I kinda figured that. Just like I prefer Z80 opcodes to 8080 as they are more regular in format. >This will be simple polled loop with interrupts disabled regardless >of what chip I use. I would love to have had DMA but I ran out resources >for it. In fact DMA is rather messy as I don't tri-state the address bus Polled loop has speed requirements and the problem of what to do if the FDC never sees dat and has to error out. >and would have to stop the CPU for a free memory cycle. If I was >doing this on a I/O card I most likely would have a sector buffer >their rather than dma. The last design I did that way save for ram was cheap by then so I did a full track buffer. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 19 09:13:44 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <000401c188a1$48500340$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk >> Right on very few if any! Most went to byte wide or multiples of byte >> wide... give a guess why? >4 bit TTL? IBM-360's? ASCII ? All of the above, though I believe the predominence of ASCII for IO had a big impact and even IBM coding {EBDIC???} wanted around 8 bits. >If you don't keep ISZ and I/O instructions the same speed that >seems quite possible. The PDP-X runs at 8 MHZ and executes 1 memory >cycle every 500 ns. http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ That is 3x >faster than a PDP-8/I with PDP timing. ISZ was expendable though very useful. The PDP-8 style of IO however was where a lot of the power in that machine was hidden. You could seriously extend the machine there. >> is simpler in some respects but far less flexible when it comes to >> fixing a bent opcode. > >Bent opcode ... that is where you use the BIG HAMMER! >In the design I was prototyping I had a lot of short instructions thus >a 512x32? rom was more than ample. Bent in that you might want a load to always be some opcode and a logic change down stream makes it something different do to gating. A PLA or Prom to translate opcodes from a irregular pattern of hardware convenience to something regular is handy. Besides with 48 bits of ucode the address of the next instruction is in the ucode and the logic is a really wide prom with a really wide latch and a really simple next address select logic (some LS257s). No counters or incrementors, The translated opcode from the prom was the source of the high order ucode address after a "next instuction fetch". Made the ucode very simple though not very efficient in terms of bits. Eproms though slow made it cheap with bipolar proms as follow up for speed. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 19 09:13:25 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <000401c188a1$48500340$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3C20AE95.DDCA7704@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > Bent in that you might want a load to always be some opcode and > a logic change down stream makes it something different do to gating. > A PLA or Prom to translate opcodes from a irregular pattern > of hardware convenience to something regular is handy. True. The only real trick I used was on reset. This would clear the instruction register and state counter to zero. I would then use that to fetch the first instruction. All instructions would start from state 2. IRQ was jam on the bus the IRQ instruction. This has changed slightly as of today since I did add a irq input and made reset now load a octal bootstrap. > Besides with 48 bits of ucode the address of the next instruction is > in the ucode and the logic is a really wide prom with a really wide > latch and a really simple next address select logic (some LS257s). > No counters or incrementors, The translated opcode from the prom > was the source of the high order ucode address after a "next > instuction fetch". Made the ucode very simple though not very > efficient in terms of bits. Eproms though slow made it cheap with > bipolar proms as follow up for speed. I have looked a microcode but not having a PROM burner kept me from doing anything with it. I found I spent more time writing software and emulators than thinking about hardware in great detail. Most of the fixing of bent opcodes have been done before I did the hardware but I did make a few changes in the exact opcode order. > Allison -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 19 12:10:58 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <000201c188d3$6f3c8a00$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk >True. The only real trick I used was on reset. This would clear >the instruction register and state counter to zero. I would then Reset for the approach I took was simple...clear the ucode latchs. the reset(restart) addres in ucode was 000h. >use that to fetch the first instruction. All instructions would >start from state 2. IRQ was jam on the bus the IRQ instruction. >This has changed slightly as of today since I did add a irq input >and made reset now load a octal bootstrap. IRQ was simple too.. the first microinstruction for the normal machine cycle was opcode fetch... unless the IRQ FF was set then the microaddress loaded was interrupt action address rather than the mapped opcode. That meant the interrupt system was synchronized to instruction fetch and also the actions taken were what ever ucode dictated. IRQ and CALL were the same basic ucode obviously. Other things I played with is a JSR (pdp-8 style) and CALL(stack style like z80 and others). Both had advantages but the JSR style was easier to make fast in ucode{fewer microwords}. >I have looked a microcode but not having a PROM burner kept me from >doing anything with it. I found I spent more time writing software >and emulators than thinking about hardware in great detail. >Most of the fixing of bent opcodes have been done before I did the >hardware but I did make a few changes in the exact opcode order. At the time I did it (1981ish) the emulator would have to run on either CP/M z80, RT-11(PDP-11) or my fingers. Part of the opcode thing was design, test, then play what if. At that time I used 350ns 2732s as I had them and could easily burn them, not fast but, easy to use. Also all the ucode for lack of a compiler was hand written. The approach was modular, simple and as much of the circuits repetitive to make wiring (wire wrap) easy to do and troubleshoot. For example the microstate machine was tested with one 2732, one LS273, one 74153 and a debounced pushbutton. That allowed me to investigate things like micro jumps, looping and startup. From there it was pretty easy to add more bits to control other logic like RAM, ALU and bus traffic latches. Using 2901s with that microcontroller was a fairly simple, expandable and managable machine of moderate speed by 1981 standards. Still it was fairly large and ate power! One for the experimental machines tried with that hardware was a 1802 like register based cpu with 16 registers like 1802 but the ALU and data paths were also 16bits. Even simple changes like that have interesting effects on in instruction sets and addressing modes. For example the 1802 does not have instructions for loading or storing the 16bit register content, you have to move bytes through the Accumulator due to 8bit busses (even internal). Once you have a 16bit path other things make more sense(or less!). Allison From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Wed Dec 19 16:30:42 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <3C1DE950.AFB1276F@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200112192230.LAA17783@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Ben Franchuk : > what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like > the rabbit. Back when I used to spend long blissful evenings hand-assembling Z80 programs [1] I got the impression that Z80 code was more compact than 6502 code, being able to manipulate 16-bit values with single instructions in many cases. Whether it was actually faster I don't know, but I suspect it was, as long as you stuck to the 8080-like core instructions which didn't take ridiculous numbers of cycles to execute. [1] I didn't do it in a storage locker, although I did often had the heater on in winter. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 19 13:10:50 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <200112192230.LAA17783@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <3C20E63A.175F1547@jetnet.ab.ca> Greg Ewing wrote: > Back when I used to spend long blissful evenings hand-assembling Z80 > programs [1] I got the impression that Z80 code was more compact than > 6502 code, being able to manipulate 16-bit values with single > instructions in many cases. Whether it was actually faster I don't > know, but I suspect it was, as long as you stuck to the 8080-like core > instructions which didn't take ridiculous numbers of cycles to > execute. I got the impression as soon as you needed 16 bit anything all 8 bit CPU's suck. The 6809 don't count of course :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Wed Dec 19 18:18:03 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <3C20E63A.175F1547@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200112200018.NAA17798@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Ben Franchuk : > I got the impression as soon as you needed 16 bit anything > all 8 bit CPU's suck. Well, yes. But there wasn't much choice in those days. > The 6809 don't count of course :) I did start building a 6809-based machine once. Got as far as getting the CPU, memory (56K RAM + 8K EEPROM) and 6845-based monochrome bitmapped graphics display working. But by then ready-made 68K-based machines were around, and it didn't seem worth building a homebrew machine any more. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From louiss at gate.net Wed Dec 19 21:17:21 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: <3C20E63A.175F1547@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I was cleaning a 20+ year old printed circuit board today, in the manner recently discussed here at length (but by hand, I don't have a dishwasher). I was somewhat alarmed when some of the tinning flaked off the copper tracks in places. The tracks themselves are fine, but evidently they had not been properly prepared before tinning, so the tinning lost its grip. My questions is this: Is the copper itself sufficient to carry the currents, or is the tinning required to reduce resistance? Or, putting it another way, is the tinning required, or is it just to assist in attaching components? Or, putting it one last way, do I need to re-tin the bare spots? For what it's worth, this took place on the motherboard of my newly acquired Exidy Sorcerer #2, a Mark I 32K unit. This one came with a fair number of manuals and software (on tape, of course). Thanks, Louis From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 19 17:46:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <006d01c188e7$ee194160$2aed9a8d@ajp166> >Ben Franchuk : > >> what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like >> the rabbit. Depends... For the same instruction execution rate (ignores clocks and cycles) the z80 is likely faster. However... if you have a 20mhz 6502 and a 10mhz z80 it gets muddier with the 6502 being the faster. And if you know one better than the other you can certainly exploit it all the more. In the end it's not which one does a task faster, it's what one you can code the task for faster. Sorta like asking apples or oranges. Allison From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Dec 19 09:06:12 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Where can I get a VT100 Terminal? Message-ID: <200112191506.KAA11139@wordstock.com> All, Does anyone have a VT100 compatible terminal they want to get rid of? Thanks, Bryan Pope From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 19 09:42:22 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Where can I get a VT100 Terminal? In-Reply-To: <200112191506.KAA11139@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > Does anyone have a VT100 compatible terminal they want to get rid of? Brian, I tend to need all of mine.... Depending on what I'm doing, I often use a null-modem cable to a PC and minicom (HyperTerm in WinSpeak) to save space. Since, at least around here, null cables are a lot easier to find than real serial terminals, that might get you by temporarily. Doc From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 19 10:08:44 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Where can I get a VT100 Terminal? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467408@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! Bryan Pope wrote: ! > ! > All, ! > ! > Does anyone have a VT100 compatible terminal they ! want to get rid of? ! > ! > Thanks, ! > ! > Bryan Pope ! ! ! There is ahamfest coming up here in St. Joseph, I'll keep my ! eyes open. ! ! Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, where? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Dec 19 10:26:00 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Where can I get a VT100 Terminal? References: <200112191506.KAA11139@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3C20BF98.E065CCC1@ccp.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > > All, > > Does anyone have a VT100 compatible terminal they want to get rid of? > > Thanks, > > Bryan Pope There is ahamfest coming up here in St. Joseph, I'll keep my eyes open. Gary Hildebrand From bills at adrenaline.com Wed Dec 19 09:20:02 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: was "how to clean".. How did they In-Reply-To: <20011219070637.JEGZ24380.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: > Story of my mom's life -- she was a master of the soldering iron, and > top-of-the-line at Convair (wiring electrical harnesses in aircraft) and > Swan (assembling transceivers). She had to work quickly, there was no > margin for error, and she never made diddly, money-wise. > > I'm really grateful that she taught me how to solder at an early age, > though ;>) I saw a show on a local cable channel last night about the development of radio circuit, proximity detonated, anti-aircraft shells, before and during World War II. Every now and then we get a really cool show on one of the college/public access channels. Anyway, the engineers who designed the circuits could produce them with about 30% reliability. Reliability meaning that they work when you shoot them. They had a group of "young women" who, according to the engineer being interviewed, called themselves the "wench bench". The "wench bench" could produce fuses with more than 60% reliability. Remember, these are tube (valve) circuits being installed in artillary shells (0 to Mach 2 in 0.25 seconds?). From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Dec 19 10:27:23 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: Apple Scribe Printer Message-ID: I aquired an Apple Scribe printer last night (went back to the Thrift Store and they hadn't repriced it, so I asked, and the guy let me have it for $2). It worked briefly, it printed the first 4 lines of a test pattern and then jammed. It looks like it may just need to be greased (the print carriage is really hard to slide by hand, but not so hard that I am hitting motor resistance, I just think after all these years, the guide bar may have dried up enough). But, before I get into opening it and regreasing it... I was seeing if anyone had a manual for it and can tell me what the blinking light indicates. When I turn it on, the Select Light blinks in patterns of three (three blinks, pause, three blinks, pause...). I did a quick google search, didn't turn up much (but found some places to buy a new ribbon, and found a few "museum" listings for it). Apple's TIL also didn't cover the lights (but has some control info so I can see if I can get it to work with one of my computers). Finally, does anyone know if there was ever a Mac driver for it? Or if the Imagewriter driver will work with it? Apple's TIL seemed to indicate it was just for the Apple II series (they leaned towards talking about the IIc in conjunction with it, but since everything seemed to say the application in use is what drives it, I would think just about any Apple II with a serial card should be able to work with it). I do know the archives showed someone else on the list found one of these back in June, but there wasn't much said about it. TIA -c From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 11:48:24 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:22 2005 Subject: More DEC cards Availiable Incl. Core In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011219174824.17309.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > Since I have had some requests from dealers I went through my storage > locker... > Other Mfg. UNIBUS > > 1 Emulex CS2110203/F1E 16 Ch RS-232 Communications controller > 1 Emulex CS2110203/F2B 16 Ch RS-232 Communications controller Nice cards. I have several. We would stick 4-6 per 11/750 for terminals for our office (developers and office workers, mostly - 1-3 serial lines per desk). Depending on which PROMs are installed, they use the TT driver or the TX driver under VMS. One board might be TXA0-7 and TXB0-7 as if it were two seperate DEC mux cards/backplanes. Can't help with any jumper settings. We never changed them as long as I took care of the VAXen. If you are lucky, you could drop one in and it'll be TXA and TXB. We used homemade cables to interface them to Nevada Western RJ-11 modular panels (pre-MMJ), but I *think* they are pin compatible with the DZ-11 breakout panels (EIA only, not 20mA, obviously) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 19 11:50:56 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: DEC bus driver/receiver chips" (Dec 19, 1:02) References: Message-ID: <10112191750.ZM26762@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 19, 1:02, Tony Duell wrote: > > DEC 380 bus receiver > Quad NOR gate Bus Receiver > > DEC 97401 bus receiver > > Are you sure that's not a driver? It possibly is. > > DEC 384 (or DEC 5384, which I think is the same) bus driver > > As far as I can see, this is the non-inverting (OR) equivalent to the 380 Thanks -- that's most helpful. > FWIW, my 8/e printset includes the M8650. It uses the above chips (and > numbers the pins on the schematic). It also confirms that the 380 and 384 > are receivers and the 97401 is a driver. How many sheets are in the set? I wonder if you could copy it. I know you don't have regular access to a copier, and not to an A3 copier, but the schematic in sections would be useful. But first, I'll see how far I get now I know the pinouts. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 11:53:47 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers) In-Reply-To: <007601c1851a$5d0a8920$4b721fd1@default> Message-ID: <20011219175347.38344.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > In no special order I would like to find a Commodore Amiga CD32... I still have mine that I bought new. I use it to play CD+G discs and not much else. Wish I had the MPEG cart - got some VCDs that would be fun to play on it. I have an SX-1 adapter that turns a CD32 into sort of an A1200, but I haven't had the time to check it out and put it together. Does anyone have any docs for that? The jumpers are labelled, so there's not much guesswork, but any docs are more than I have now. The other thing I wouldn't mind getting is a replacement CD-TV. I had one that I bought new for $800 that was stolen when my house was burglarized 9 years ago - they got my A500 (with WEDGE XT drive adapter) and a couple of PETs. Fortunately for me at the time, they didn't have time to grab my over-expanded A1000 (Rejuvinator, Spirit InBoard, etc.). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 19 11:54:45 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: hp 97 card reader Message-ID: Can someone help Dan with his request? Please reply directly to Dan. Reply-to: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:00:48 +0100 From: Dan Polla To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: hp 97 card reader Good evening gentlemen, I have to ressemble the HP 97cardreader - and have all (?) small parts in a little box; can anyone send me a pic of the downside of the readers little circiutboard? Thanks a lot! Dan -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 10:04:47 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011219001440.N91212-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20011219160447.54189.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I have been told there's a KS-10 somewhere in this town When I track > > him down, I'll at least get pictures. I'll also see if he's bored > > with it and make an offer. > > Wow, thanks. I'd appreciate any information you have. Just found out yesterday that he doesn't have it anymore. No further info. I asked if it was sold or scrapped or what, but my contact had no idea. This guy would have gotten it from CompuServe circa 1994, so I don't even know if he got rid of it recently or not. Foo! -ethan P.S. - Still working on the SC-35s and SC-40s. *No* idea if I'll ever be able to get one as they drop off service eventually. There are still several dozen in active use in Columbus. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jss at subatomix.com Wed Dec 19 11:28:29 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20011219160447.54189.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011219112510.H92469-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > I have been told there's a KS-10 somewhere in this town > > Just found out yesterday that he doesn't have it anymore. Grrr! > P.S. - Still working on the SC-35s and SC-40s. *No* idea if I'll ever > be able to get one as they drop off service eventually. There are > still several dozen in active use in Columbus. Again, any information is appreciated. I'm sure that goes for all of us on the list. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 10:27:32 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <006a01c18745$a74b2ee0$b1469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: <20011219162732.36132.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Schaefer wrote: > Just out of curiousity, where is this town? > > Bob > > > > > I have been told there's a KS-10 somewhere in this town (owned by a > > former CompuServe employee... Columbus, OH, home of CompuServe. Unfortunately, as I've already written, I found out yesterday that at some point between 1994 and last week, this guy got rid of it in an unspecified manner. :-( -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 10:31:04 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011219163104.19687.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > > Commodore built a "luggable" C64 with 5in colour CRT and 5.25in drive, > > I've never seen one on ebay.... > > ...recently. > > They used to come up all the time. They are not rare at all. I've managed to pick up a couple... one was cheap because the former owner tried to repair the keyboard... with a soldering iron (for the uninitiated, it has a flexible membrane, not a PCB inside, and is prone to oxidation). Fortunately for me, I had just the keyboard in a pile of stuff I got from the local C= dealer when they closed (the principle of Classic Attraction at work again ;-) They are around, but, like anything that's 15+ years old, not as common as they used to be. I know another person in Columbus with one; he might sell for the right price (he tried to sell it to me once, but he wanted 2x what I was willing to pay, and I'm cheap when it comes to not-so-uncommon things). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 10:34:33 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <00cb01c185d4$6f53ac00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20011219163433.58286.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Allain wrote: > > Commodore built a "luggable" C64 with 5in colour CRT and > > 5.25in drive, I've never seen one on ebay. > > Is this one? Keep trying. > "Commodore SX64 Executive Computer -Excellent!" > item#282977642 $119.00 Mar-13-00 Mar-23-00 > (my bid was, uh, less) No doubt. I wouldn't pay that much either (in fact, I didn't, in the same year). ISTR paying between $50 and $75 plus S&H (but it was a pick-up from SoCal, so no postage - got it on a visit to a friend). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 10:41:21 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011219164121.52931.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > I've found PDP-11s as early as a /34 around here, and newer BA23 boxen > > are quite common. I agree. If you exclude F-11 and LSI-11 Qbus machines (pre-BA23), the most common PDP-11 systems in my experience have been 11/34s followed by 11/24s. > > I do not have a PDP-8, but I saw an /I and an /S in a > > collection near me, so they don't qualify, either. I would class the /S as rare, especially since I have examples of just about every other model (missing an /S an /f and an /m, and VT-78 if you count that). I at least have an example of each technological variety (i.e., an /e, but no /f, etc.) I wish I could have gotten the racks of -8/ms from the Ohio State Vet Clinic - a buddy of mine used them (with Tek graphic tubes and printers) with a mass spec for analyzing horse urine for drugs for the Ohio Racing Commission. I used to go down and play on his machines when he had the mass spec torn down for cleaning (removing carbon deposits, mostly). It was a pair of CPUs, each with a controller for dual-ported Diablo disks (RK05-like) - he would run the sample with one CPU, store the results, then analyze and print the results from the same drives/packs from the other CPU. I compiled my first RTS-8 executive on those machines. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 11:56:32 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <200112141937.fBEJb6D04413@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011219175632.38652.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Dittman wrote: > Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is a limit on > how small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate two large > reels. > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive for $75. I'd love one... Right now my TU-80 is my smallest tape drive. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From dittman at dittman.net Wed Dec 19 12:46:38 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <20011219175632.38652.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 19, 2001 09:56:32 AM Message-ID: <200112191846.fBJIkc332029@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is a limit on > > how small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate two large > > reels. > > > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive for $75. > > I'd love one... Right now my TU-80 is my smallest tape drive. And right now I'm leaving to pick up the drive. Fun tonight! -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 15:34:56 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <200112191846.fBJIkc332029@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011219213456.7407.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is a limit > > > on how small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate two > > > large reels. I have a TS03 - it is smaller than a small microwave oven, but it only takes 7" reels (and only uses one actual reel - the takeup is a naked hub that the tape stacks on - the distance between the axes of the motors is about 1.2 x the reel size - you get tape spinning one way in between a tape reel spinning the other way past a certain point) > > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive for > > > $75. > > > > I'd love one... Right now my TU-80 is my smallest tape drive. > > And right now I'm leaving to pick up the drive. Fun tonight! Nice. Best to pick up, not to ship. My experience with SCSI 9-track drives is that they are 19"x10.5"x36" and not all air inside. Still wish I had one. I'd pay $50-$150 for one (excl. shipping) if it supported 6250 bpi. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 15:34:57 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <200112191846.fBJIkc332029@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011219213457.7416.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is a limit > > > on how small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate two > > > large reels. I have a TS03 - it is smaller than a small microwave oven, but it only takes 7" reels (and only uses one actual reel - the takeup is a naked hub that the tape stacks on - the distance between the axes of the motors is about 1.2 x the reel size - you get tape spinning one way in between a tape reel spinning the other way past a certain point) > > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive for > > > $75. > > > > I'd love one... Right now my TU-80 is my smallest tape drive. > > And right now I'm leaving to pick up the drive. Fun tonight! Nice. Best to pick up, not to ship. My experience with SCSI 9-track drives is that they are 19"x10.5"x36" and not all air inside. Still wish I had one. I'd pay $50-$150 for one (excl. shipping) if it supported 6250 bpi. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From dittman at dittman.net Wed Dec 19 16:21:59 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <20011219213457.7416.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 19, 2001 01:34:57 PM Message-ID: <200112192221.fBJMLxX32668@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > > Actually, there are some table-top 9-track drives. There is a limit > > > > on how small a 9-track drive can be since you have to accommodate two > > > > large reels. > > I have a TS03 - it is smaller than a small microwave oven, but it only > takes 7" reels (and only uses one actual reel - the takeup is a naked > hub that the tape stacks on - the distance between the axes of the motors > is about 1.2 x the reel size - you get tape spinning one way in between > a tape reel spinning the other way past a certain point) At one place I worked we had a 9-track tape drive that would take full size reels, and used a simple hub instead of a takeup reel. I always expected to have the tape despool on the takeup hub, but it never did. > > > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive for > > > > $75. > > > > > > I'd love one... Right now my TU-80 is my smallest tape drive. > > > > And right now I'm leaving to pick up the drive. Fun tonight! > > Nice. Best to pick up, not to ship. My experience with SCSI 9-track > drives is that they are 19"x10.5"x36" and not all air inside. Still > wish I had one. I'd pay $50-$150 for one (excl. shipping) if it supported > 6250 bpi. Good Lord, that drive is heavy. I left it in the garage after I got home. I'll need to make space before I bring it up to the computer room. I can now read TK50, TK70, DLT (up to 20/40GB), DAT (up to 4/8GB), 8mm (2GB and 5GB), 3480, and 3490 at home (plus some of the QIC and Travan, but I forget which as they aren't connected). Next drive to find is the TU58. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 19 11:59:40 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: OT: GatorStar GX-R.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146740C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Yes, this box is not quite old enough, but it is an AppleTalk & LocalTalk Router. The protocols probably do classify as "Classic". Anyway, Cayman.com doesn't have docs online anymore for this, and I'm gonna try calling/e-mailing them right after this is sent. Does anyone else have a user's guide, and/or reference guide for this? So far Google is turning up only 'How-To' for setting it up. I'd like to get my hans on the paper guides that shipped with it. At least a copy, or something... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Dec 19 12:34:40 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: [OT] SynOptics 810M PowerSupply problems Message-ID: <011501c188bb$d2761360$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Hi Folks, Propably not yet 10y old so slightly OT. yet ..... I got a SynOptics 810M ethernethub about 9 month ago and it served me fine till two weeks back. When I came home all the power was down because the groundleak protection was triggerd. Eventually it turned out to be the powersupply of this hub that went bad on me. I want to replace it with another psu but I can't find any info on the way the ps2-like powerplug is wired. The 810M needs +5V +12V -12V 0V and ground connections. Does anyone, familiar with this device, have a clue ??? Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------- From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Dec 19 12:45:42 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Ancient "toy computer" In-Reply-To: <00c301c18858$c36d3be0$5c2ecd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C208BF6.12709.BF5C460@localhost> Oops. It's at only $40. 10hrs of newly frenzied bidding to go. Lawrence > > > > Think-A-Tron, made by Hasbro. > > I had one too (and still wish I had it) > > These do show up on eBay from time to time. > > > There's one there right now: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1677390749 > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From bills at adrenaline.com Wed Dec 19 13:40:37 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" Message-ID: Here's a web page that describes the proximity fuze development effort, including mention of "The Wench Bench". http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/0400web/10.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 19 21:36:04 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many of the munitions and missiles I worked in the AF have both visual and radio proximity fuses - truly amazing to see in action. The AIM-9 Sidewinder uses an optical proximity and rarely misses it's calling. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:41 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" Here's a web page that describes the proximity fuze development effort, including mention of "The Wench Bench". http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/0400web/10.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 19 22:35:08 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Which one used a pin type 286? I think it was the Z and I think the regular > 50 used a PLCC type. I have two Intel plug in processor upgrades I want to > get rid of and taking bids (so to speak). I can scan a pic of one and send > it to anyone curious. The model 60 used a PGA 286 at 10Mhz. I might be intrested in your upgrade modules, drop me an email. -Toth From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Dec 19 13:45:03 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Digital Group) Message-ID: Ulp ... Adrian, what part of the US? Any idea what became of the machine eventually? - Mark >Dammit - I was offered a Digital Group machine earlier this year and the >only thing that stopped me was the horrendous shipping cost from the US. >This thing had the (in)famous tape unit attached that contained either 4 or >6 drives; can't remember. .... > >- -- >Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd From CLeyson at aol.com Wed Dec 19 13:54:26 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) Message-ID: <121.91c59c4.29524a72@aol.com> Re: Commodore SX64 - Thanks for the info Ethan. Havn't seen any recently in the UK but I think they were popular in Germany. I'm not actively looking out for one, it just sprang to mind. I never liked the C64 anyway, the custom chips were prone to early failure. Used to own an Atari 800 together with all of the software development manuals - wish I'd kept now. Chris From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Dec 19 14:18:07 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) In-Reply-To: <121.91c59c4.29524a72@aol.com> from "CLeyson@aol.com" at "Dec 19, 1 02:54:26 pm" Message-ID: <200112192018.MAA07746@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Re: Commodore SX64 - Thanks for the info Ethan. Havn't seen any recently > in the UK but I think they were popular in Germany. Supposedly a real *DX64* (the prototype double-drive version) lurks in Germany in a lucky someone's collection. It's not a hack, either (there's a few of those out there too). > I never liked the C64 anyway, the custom chips > were prone to early failure. Awwww, c'mon. Wizball brings a smile to everyone's face. Actually, there is some resentment of Commodores in some quarters. Besides the usually friendly rivalry between Spectrum and 64 owners, I've encountered some real vitriol when I bring up 64s to certain other classic computer groups who shall currently remain nameless. I suppose their justification is that the C64 crammed their system out of the market, and as a Mac user, I do have *some* sympathy :-), but still ... -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 15:31:02 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) In-Reply-To: <121.91c59c4.29524a72@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011219213102.77341.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Re: Commodore SX64 - Thanks for the info Ethan. Sure thing. > Havn't seen any recently > in the UK but I think they were popular in Germany. I'm not actively > looking out for one, it just sprang to mind. I never liked the C64 > anyway, the custom chips were prone to early failure. I never had that problem personally, but I can see how it could be a concern. I always liked the PET/C-64 partially because the custom chips afforded a feature set at a price lower than other machines (like the Apple ][) They were far from perfect (I couldn't *afford* a disk drive for my PET and the C-64 drive was the slowest on the planet), but I liked them once you finally did get whatever you were working/playing on into memory. As for failure modes, the single most common thing to break in a C-64 is the PLA (82S100 chip) - a totally dead machine (that's been verified to have good power) probably has a dead PLA. Next to that, I think RAM was the most common thing to go, but that wasn't 1/10th as common. > Used to own an Atari 800 together with all > of the software development manuals - wish I'd kept now. I was never into Atari, but I was recently gifted with an Atari 800, two disk drives, tape drive, comm interface, parallel dot matrix printer, acoustic coupler, all tech ref manuals, digitizer tablet, box of software *and* the receipts - my friend paid about 80% of retail (according to the Atari glossies in the box) and it was still in the region of $3000! It's a gem of a set - all the goodies you could imagine, all the docs and paperwork. About the opposite from the typical thrift store experience... my friend is a retired engineer - he aquired and kept *everything*! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CLeyson at aol.com Wed Dec 19 16:43:26 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) Message-ID: <82.1505a364.2952720e@aol.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Awwww, c'mon. Wizball brings a smile to everyone's face. One of the best games of all time. I never really got into the C64, I was too busy building disk drive controller boards for the Atari or trying to get fig forth to run. Sad but true :-( The C64 was a really neat machine but had a few hardware reliability problems. The PAL and the graphics chip were prone to early failure. At one time I used to fix two or three machines a week for a friend who owned a TV repair shop. He bought scrap machines from high street dealers and I would end up having to fix them. However, some of the games for these machines were works of genius. I really admire the people who had to write the software, mostly in assembler, and too impossible deadlines. The same could be said for the "speccy". Not exactly reliable but for three chips, Z80, current injection logic ASIC, sound and some DRAM - WOW ! The cassette interface could be a problem but when faced with the prospect of having to rebuild DC100 tapes, ( including drilling holes in the tape ), and replacing the drive wheel in an HP tape drive - I'd go for the "speccy". Best Regards Chris Leyson From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Dec 19 18:30:49 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011220052601.XPPQ26017.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Russ Blakeman" > To: > Subject: RE: Speaking of PS/2s... > Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:46:21 -0600 > Importance: Normal > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > The 70 came out ONLY with ESDI, the Reply upgrade and other aftermarket > controllers would give IDE, but not the factory. I have tons of various ESDI > drives I need to sell off too, all 3.5" from 20mb to (maybe) 120mb. True, also 80, 60 and 50, 55sx used ESDI drives either by pass through or MCA paddle adapters. In many MCA-based industrial, and many odd network boxens (those black ones), IBM used ESDI pass-through adapter w/ drive physically bolted to it. Basically bolted together MCA hardcard. Also P70 used ESDI via cable to the planar strictly. On using non-MCA ESDI drives, Not just for IDE adapters there is SCSI MCA cards, simply pull ESDI drive along w/ adapter if there. Then put in SCSI card (IBM or non-IBM scsi MCA card and ascsi drives. I have done this in my 70-A w/ ST5660N and MCS700. > Have you seen these drives? They're nothing like IDE. They don't even > use the ESDI standard one-signal/two-data cables. It plugs into a > doohickey similar to the ST-506 doohickey on the Mod 50. > > Peace... Sridhar Cheers, Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 19 17:15:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: from "Doc Shipley" at Dec 18, 1 09:30:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 369 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/36c85280/attachment.ksh From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 20 13:06:36 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > I guess the reason mauy of the regulars here don't talk about PCs much is > that we feel there are some rather better machines around :-) > Well, yeah. Me too. Doc From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 20 13:14:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Hi, all. > > I had sort of gotten the impression that PCs don't count on this list. > > The original charter of this list specifically said that PCs (10 years > old or more) were on-topic here. They're computers after all. > > I guess the reason mauy of the regulars here don't talk about PCs much is > that we feel there are some rather better machines around :-) Anyway, PS/2's are more interesting than your standard, plain-vanilla PC. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 19 17:28:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Dec 19, 1 00:08:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/d7ec00b0/attachment.ksh From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 20 01:01:22 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I noted that I had a small note with the Intel upgrades, that they came from a 50Z so they'll likely work in a 60 as well. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tothwolf Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 10:35 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Speaking of PS/2s... On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Which one used a pin type 286? I think it was the Z and I think the regular > 50 used a PLCC type. I have two Intel plug in processor upgrades I want to > get rid of and taking bids (so to speak). I can scan a pic of one and send > it to anyone curious. The model 60 used a PGA 286 at 10Mhz. I might be intrested in your upgrade modules, drop me an email. -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 19 17:35:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Toys? In-Reply-To: <3C20A475.B2D42144@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Dec 19, 1 06:30:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 439 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/a615db70/attachment.ksh From rickb at bensene.com Thu Dec 20 13:41:30 2001 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Toys? In-Reply-To: <3C20A475.B2D42144@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <000201c1898e$5261d870$0503eecd@bensene.com> Charles Hobbs scribbled -- > > Anyone here collect calculators? Yup. Big time. Check out http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 19 17:45:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: hp 97 card reader In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Dec 19, 1 09:54:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 888 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/5ebd8086/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 19 17:39:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips In-Reply-To: <10112191750.ZM26762@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 19, 1 05:50:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 676 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/7dc32847/attachment.ksh From djg at drs-esg.com Thu Dec 20 07:39:13 2001 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips Message-ID: <200112201339.IAA28901@drs-esg.com> Threads on DEC chip crosses http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=lC_46.724%24Lr4.186106%40news.abs.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D97401%2Bpdp%26hl%3Den%26rnum%3D1%26selm%3DlC_46.724%2524Lr4.186106%2540news.abs.net http://groups.google.com/groups?q=97401+pdp&hl=en&rnum=2&selm=1992Nov17.041733.14022%40news.columbia.edu I have scanned my KL8E print set (M8650) (and a bunch of other common 8/E boards I didn't have online). http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=262 If people are looking for PDP-8 documentation feel free to ask me. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 20 12:48:54 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: pdp-11/34 for rescue In-Reply-To: <01Dec19.090114est.119172@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: <01Dec19.090114est.119172@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <01Dec20.150311est.119087@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> That PDP-11/34 in Hampton has been claimed by someone in Virigina Beach. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Dec 20 12:06:57 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Rainbow 100+ available. In-Reply-To: <200112200401.fBK41lE06491@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hey, all you prospective Rainbow owners need to check comp.sys.dec.micro ASAP. Someone trying to get rid of a RB100+, with a *hard drive*, VR241 color monitor, LK201, and LA-50 printer. I can help with docs and software. - Mark From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 20 10:15:00 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Heath h-8 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFF4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Ok guys, another project (yes, I really do have this many)... :) I have a Heath H-8. Seems to work. Thanks to the help of a guy who runs the only H-8 dedicated web-site I can find, I now believe that the thing has an "H-17" hard-sectored floppy interface, as well as a 4 port serial interface. Now, keying in programs from the front-panel is cool and everything, but I'm thinking of putting a console on it, and a disk drive, so that I can run HDOS, and maybe have some external storage. ;) So, how rare are the peripherals? In the absence of a heath floppy drive, what else might I use(and how...)? Anyone know where I can get one? I have a Lier-Siegler ADM-5 terminal, which I may want to plug into it (It's the closest thing to authentic I've got... :), but on the other hand, again, how rare are the Heath terminals? Assuming I ever get all of these things, the last question would be: Would anybody be willing to make a copy of HDOS? Otherwise is there a possibility I can download it from somewhere and actually get it on a disk properly? Another interesting question is this: My H-8 has a strange wire-wrapped breadboard, on top of what appears to be a normal 8080 CPU card. The breadboard contains a Z80 cpu, and plugs into the CPU socket of the 8080 CPU card. Any guesses about this? Might this mean I can run CP/M with some toying around? (Did CP/M ever run on these?) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Thu Dec 20 11:32:42 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Heath h-8 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFF4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFF4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: Where is this h8 web site? I saved an H8 from the landfill a while back.. just a system, no peripherasls...seems to work, but I don't know what to do with it..no documentation at all. thanks! -Bob >Ok guys, another project (yes, I really do have this many)... :) > >I have a Heath H-8. Seems to work. Thanks to the help of a guy who runs >the only H-8 dedicated web-site I can find, I now believe that the thing has >an "H-17" hard-sectored floppy interface, as well as a 4 port serial >interface. > >Now, keying in programs from the front-panel is cool and everything, but I'm >thinking of putting a console on it, and a disk drive, so that I can run >HDOS, and maybe have some external storage. ;) > >So, how rare are the peripherals? In the absence of a heath floppy drive, >what else might I use(and how...)? Anyone know where I can get one? > >I have a Lier-Siegler ADM-5 terminal, which I may want to plug into it (It's >the closest thing to authentic I've got... :), but on the other hand, again, >how rare are the Heath terminals? > >Assuming I ever get all of these things, the last question would be: Would >anybody be willing to make a copy of HDOS? Otherwise is there a possibility >I can download it from somewhere and actually get it on a disk properly? > >Another interesting question is this: My H-8 has a strange wire-wrapped >breadboard, on top of what appears to be a normal 8080 CPU card. The >breadboard contains a Z80 cpu, and plugs into the CPU socket of the 8080 CPU >card. Any guesses about this? Might this mean I can run CP/M with some >toying around? (Did CP/M ever run on these?) > >Regards, > >Chris > >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, IL > >/usr/bin/perl -e ' >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' > bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 20 12:35:10 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Heath h-8 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFFC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Brown [mailto:bbrown@harper.cc.il.us] > Where is this h8 web site? I saved an H8 from the landfill > a while back.. > just a system, no peripherasls...seems to work, but I don't > know what to do > with it..no documentation at all. The one I've found is: http://people.ne.mediaone.net/davidwallace2000/ Click on the heathkit logo... Also he has a link to another H-8 emulator for Macintosh. At any rate, it looks like a fairly simple machine to me. My story is the same as yours. It was brought to me because one of the people at the scrapyard thought I might like to have it. Anyway, the console interface is remarkably intuitive. You can use the keypad to view or set memory addresses/registers in octal. One could just key a program in 8080 machine language, set the program counter and hit "go." The system would then do as you'd told it. If only the computers most people use today were that flexible and user-friendly. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 20 13:51:57 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:23 2005 Subject: Power Series Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFFE@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Netdiablo [mailto:root@diablonet.net] > Thats pretty cool.. I've got a bunch of smaller SGI machines including > Indigo, > Indigo2, and Indy, but nothing larger. I have an entire Crimson > boardset, but > no chassis for it, alas. I also have an Indigo2 which I use on a regular basis. > I've got a NeXT Cube and a Slab, but the Cube is the original 68030 > model > and doesn't have the NeXTDimension board. If you're ever > interested in a > road trip, though, noticing that you're in Illinois, the University of > Michigan > Property Disposition warehouse had a NeXTDimension Cube laying around > about a month ago; $50, I think. I would've picked it up myself, but I > was > totally out of money at the time. I'd imagine it's stilll > there, though. I'd be interested in a road trip, but unfortunately not capable of a road trip. (no road-worthy vehicle...) > That's a relatively higher-end one, then... 4D/340, perhaps? There's a > neat > site called This Old SGI that talks a lot about getting these > old Power > Series > machines running. You can find it pretty quickly with Google. I've been reading it. Mine is actually a 4D/440, I think. (Even better. :) > I checked a couple of days ago and there is an original SGI > 4D keyboard > and mouse set on eBay for not too much... less than $10, I think. I'm > not > sure how much longer it'll be there, though. If that's the going price, though, it isn't bad. > I'd probably give up on finding the skins for the machine - I've never > really seen them turn up by themselves, and usually, MACHINES that > turn up are missing pieces of them. The power cable's probably going > to have to be a homemade job, too, as I don't see them turn up very > often, but from what I gather, they shouldn't be too hard to assemble. Three (very thick) wires. :) > I've heard that you can find the connectors for the power cord at > hardware > stores, but I can't confirm that myself. That will be the first place I look, if I can't find the original. > I'd DEFINITELY suggest taking a look at the power supply (and fuse) > before > you begin. Make sure the power transistors and caps are in > good order. I > say > this because the power supplies on these machines are getting a little > old and > they are known for being somewhat iffy. I've had a similar > supply (on a > SGI > Crimson machine) flame out on me before - it makes a very spectacular > noise! Ouch. Care to help me figure out how? I do have a multimeter (should be all I need for that part, right?) or two, but haven't done much work with it, and not for a while. :) > That, incidentally, is where the Crimson boardset came > from... I wish I > would > have saved the chassis from the Dumpster, too (this was at > work when we > had > picked up an old Crimson from a customer as scrap once and > were messing > around with it). Ah, well. I'm still trying to find another SGI VME > machine to > this day. Maybe an Onyx or something :) Deskside Onyx 1s are relatively reasonable in price now. Same chassis. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From root at diablonet.net Fri Dec 21 12:11:02 2001 From: root at diablonet.net (Netdiablo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Power Series Message-ID: <3C237B35.994348E2@diablonet.net> Please see embedded comments. > Well, speak of the devil... and all that. After mentioning yesterday that a > Power Series machine would be nice to have, I found that somebody brought > one home for me. (seriously...) Thats pretty cool.. I've got a bunch of smaller SGI machines including Indigo, Indigo2, and Indy, but nothing larger. I have an entire Crimson boardset, but no chassis for it, alas. > So before I get started here, let me also mention that it would be nice to > have: > > A Symbolics Lisp Machine > A Next Dimension Cube > A PDP-11 in a small rack with blinkenlights and core I'd love to get my hands on a LISP machine someday, too - if anyone ever comes across one thats up for grabs, let me know! I'll "move heaven and earth" to try and pick that up! I've got a PDP 11/34a with core, but its not really a complete system. I really need some sort of disk controller and subsystem for it, and I also need to figure out the pinout for the console terminal connector. I've got a NeXT Cube and a Slab, but the Cube is the original 68030 model and doesn't have the NeXTDimension board. If you're ever interested in a road trip, though, noticing that you're in Illinois, the University of Michigan Property Disposition warehouse had a NeXTDimension Cube laying around about a month ago; $50, I think. I would've picked it up myself, but I was totally out of money at the time. I'd imagine it's stilll there, though. > ... enough of that, though. :) > > So, I now am the proud owner of a Power Series VGX machine. It seems to > have 4 40Mhz CPUs in it, a full compliment of graphics boards, FDDI, and > some extra video I/O boards. That's a relatively higher-end one, then... 4D/340, perhaps? There's a neat site called This Old SGI that talks a lot about getting these old Power Series machines running. You can find it pretty quickly with Google. > It's a deskside type machine, the whole thing fitting in one very large > tower --err... coffee-table :) > > Firstly, this machine is in need of: > > The plastic "skirt" piece for the right side of the chassis. > > The plastic back plate. > > The power-cable. > > Keyboard, monitor, mouse (all of which I can probably get locally... I checked a couple of days ago and there is an original SGI 4D keyboard and mouse set on eBay for not too much... less than $10, I think. I'm not sure how much longer it'll be there, though. I'd probably give up on finding the skins for the machine - I've never really seen them turn up by themselves, and usually, MACHINES that turn up are missing pieces of them. The power cable's probably going to have to be a homemade job, too, as I don't see them turn up very often, but from what I gather, they shouldn't be too hard to assemble. > (that's it.. I think I have the entire machine otherwise) > > Does anyone know where I can get these, or (in the case of the power-cord, > for instance) parts to make them? I've heard that you can find the connectors for the power cord at hardware stores, but I can't confirm that myself. > Any warnings/information/antic dotes for these machines? > I do intend to use the thing. I also intend to use it at home. It appears > to require 20 Amp service, though, and I have no good 20 Amp outlet within > reach. I do have some 20 Amp and a couple 30 Amp fuses (Yes, fuses. I > intend to replace the one I hook this to with a mini-breaker) in the box, > which I intend to trace before I decide where to plug it in. It may be that > I'll contract somebody to run a 20 Amp outlet for this machine. (Never > having done AC wiring work on my own, I feel that I don't want to start by > wiring an outlet for this beast) Otherwise, the plan will be to plug it > into a circuit with a highly rated fuse on it, and unplug everything else. > Any holes in this plan? The breaker on the power-supply is rated 16 Amps, > btw. I have no idea how much pull to expect from a monitor -- anyone know > whether I can safely use both on the same circuit? That would simplify > things. > > I believe a best option is to have somebody run a line up from the > washer/dryer hookups in the basement. Those are hooked to 30-amp fuses > already and have cutoff switches. As long as nobody does laundry while the > machine's running, then, it would be fine. :) > > Lastly, even before I get this thing plugged in, I'd like to inventory it, > and check it for health. What should I look for? I'd DEFINITELY suggest taking a look at the power supply (and fuse) before you begin. Make sure the power transistors and caps are in good order. I say this because the power supplies on these machines are getting a little old and they are known for being somewhat iffy. I've had a similar supply (on a SGI Crimson machine) flame out on me before - it makes a very spectacular noise! That, incidentally, is where the Crimson boardset came from... I wish I would have saved the chassis from the Dumpster, too (this was at work when we had picked up an old Crimson from a customer as scrap once and were messing around with it). Ah, well. I'm still trying to find another SGI VME machine to this day. Maybe an Onyx or something :) > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); Kind regards, Sean Caron scaron@engin.umich.edu root@diablonet.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 19 17:52:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) In-Reply-To: <20011219213102.77341.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 19, 1 01:31:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1097 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011219/13e354aa/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 20 13:02:11 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 19, 1 11:52:25 pm" Message-ID: <200112201902.LAA08542@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > As for failure modes, the single most common thing to break in a C-64 > > is the PLA (82S100 chip) - a totally dead machine (that's been verified > > Has anybody ever read that chip out and recreated the logic equations? It > shouldn't be hard to do.... Yep. The PLA can now be effectively simulated with an EPROM. However, Commodore went and complicated the issue with the monster GAL in later 64C motherboards which is yet another a multi-function custom chip. Fortunately I prefer the breadbox units. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Really???? WOW!!!!! I'm shallow TOO!!!!! ----------------------------------- From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 13:52:28 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011220195228.3905.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > I never had that problem personally, but I can see how it could be a > > concern. I always liked the PET/C-64 partially because the custom > > chips afforded a feature set at a price lower than other machines (like > > I am now trying to think of a single 'custom chip', other than ROMs, in > any normal PET (not PET-II or anything like that). From what I remember > of repairing 2001s and 8032s, it's all standard components in there. Well... standard in one sense - things like the 6522 were available from multiple vendors, but they certainly weren't the popcorn logic of an Apple ][. Since the 6520s and 6522s and 6530s, etc., that were common to those machines came from the MOS fabs, I was sort-of counting them as "custom" chips. I suppose I could have overgeneralized. > Has anybody ever read that chip out and recreated the logic equations? It > shouldn't be hard to do.... I don't know about the equations, but ISTR there's a programmer-ready file on funet (as I mentioned in another posting on this topic). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 00:19:44 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) In-Reply-To: <200112192018.MAA07746@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20011220061944.96188.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Supposedly a real *DX64* (the prototype double-drive version) lurks in > Germany in a lucky someone's collection. It's not a hack, either (there's > a few of those out there too). I've heard of it, but never seen one. > Actually, there is some resentment of Commodores in some quarters... > I suppose their justification is that the C64 crammed their system out > of the market, and as a Mac user, I do have *some* sympathy :-), but > still ... Well... I made a lot more money between 1982 and 1985 with the C-64 than I did programming for the Apple ][ or any other "home" computer, so I know where my loyalties lie... the PET and the C-64 were what got me warmed up for the big toys (32-bits and up...) As an Amiga owner from way back, I understand the pain of marginalization, but time marches on and it brings cool stuff with it. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Dec 20 13:02:19 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) Message-ID: <149.6ab759e.29538fbb@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Has anybody ever read that chip out and recreated the logic equations? It > shouldn't be hard to do.... Should be easy since it doesn't contain any registers and feedback terms. I don't know how you'd get the fuse map without using a programmer, I'd just read it like RAM and figure out the terms that way. > Programming the thing is a pain -- you need about 4 different programming > voltages. I do have the programming algorithm somewhere and one day I > should probably have a go at making a programmer... I'd use a small CPLD like a Xilinx XC95XX device. They are 5V and easy to program. Anybody used Xilinx XC4010E FPGA's ? and, could I fit a 6502 into one ? Chris Programming the thing is a pain -- you need about 4 different programming voltages. I do have the programming algorithm somewhere and one day I should probably have a go at making a programmer... From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 13:43:34 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) In-Reply-To: <149.6ab759e.29538fbb@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011220194334.96791.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Has anybody ever read that chip out and recreated the logic equations? > > It shouldn't be hard to do.... It isn't. > Should be easy since it doesn't contain any registers and feedback terms. > I don't know how you'd get the fuse map without using a programmer, I'd > just read it like RAM and figure out the terms that way. I'm pretty sure there's a file suitable for dropping into a real 82S100 on funet. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Dec 19 23:32:38 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: C64 vs. Spectrum (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64)) Message-ID: <20011220054652.FNNS10649.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Cameron Kaiser > Actually, there is some resentment of Commodores in some quarters. Besides > the usually friendly rivalry between Spectrum and 64 owners, I've encountered > some real vitriol when I bring up 64s to certain other classic computer > groups who shall currently remain nameless. Don't go near comp.sys.sinclair. "Commode" users get slammed there on a regular basis -- and hard. > I suppose their justification is > that the C64 crammed their system out of the market, and as a Mac user, I > do have *some* sympathy :-), but still ... The general opinion seems to be that the C64 folks stole the best games from the Spec, and cut price to run Sinclair out of the market. Glen 0/0 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 20 09:18:41 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: C64 vs. Spectrum (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64)) In-Reply-To: <20011220054652.FNNS10649.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from Glen Goodwin at "Dec 20, 1 00:32:38 am" Message-ID: <200112201518.HAA10884@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Actually, there is some resentment of Commodores in some quarters. Besides > > the usually friendly rivalry between Spectrum and 64 owners, I've found > > some real vitriol when I bring up 64s to certain other classic computer > > groups who shall currently remain nameless. > Don't go near comp.sys.sinclair. "Commode" users get slammed there on a > regular basis -- and hard. I don't know if you mean the annual comp.sys.cbm vs. comp.sys.sinclair flamewar, which is now considered standard if juvenile, but most of the old hands are fairly jocular about it. I don't read anything that isn't crossposted to c.s.c from c.s.s, though, so my experience is not representative (and I usually killfile the thread if it shows up). > > I suppose their justification is > > that the C64 crammed their system out of the market, and as a Mac user, I > > do have *some* sympathy :-), but still ... > The general opinion seems to be that the C64 folks stole the best games > from the Spec, and cut price to run Sinclair out of the market. What I was mostly referring to was certain segments of the TI market. They're "Commodes" over there, too. We're all proud of our individual chosen platforms, but sometimes the territoriality spills way over. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- MOVIE IDEA: The Never-Ending E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From jss at subatomix.com Wed Dec 19 23:55:15 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MS-DOS 6.22 Disk Image In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011219235408.R93471-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > I need an image of the 4th MS-DOS 6.22 3.5" disk, the 'extra program' > > disk. My disk seems to have been lost while moving things around in > > my house. TIA. > > [...] Google or archie [...] Oh, I should have switched my brain *ON* this morning. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 23:59:00 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011220055900.92826.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Louis Schulman wrote: > My questions is this: Is the copper itself sufficient to carry the > currents, or is the tinning required to reduce > resistance? I'm not sure it has anything to do with resistance. > Or, putting it another way, is the tinning required, or is > it just to assist in attaching components? Tinning _does_ help with attaching components. > Or, putting it one last way, do I need to re-tin the bare spots? I would. Carefully. I think the biggest benefit gained from tinning spots that _don't_ have components attaching to them is that bare copper traces could oxidize all the way through, especially if they are exposed to a corrosive agent (from ammonia to human sweat). I think tin oxides are more protective of the underlying metal, much like aluminum oxides. I am not a chemist or metallurgist, but I _think_ it works like that. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Dec 20 01:56:31 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: <20011220055900.92826.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just a quick (dumb) question: is this 'tinning' silver? Or Green? In other words, has the solder itself actually flaked off the trace (meaning it never bonded in the first place) or has the 'paint' coating called the solder mask, which is usually green, come off, revealing the trace beneath it? This very common, and Ethan is right, it should be carefully re-tinned to avoid long-term corrosion. Cheers and Best of the Season John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 20 07:22:17 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs Message-ID: <000c01c18959$59e72620$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Are you sure it was the solder plating and not the resist(solder) mask(a plastic like over coating material)? If it was the tinning, that's there to improve solderability and appearance as well. The tinning adds very little to the current carrying capability as tin and lead have significantly more resistance than copper. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Louis Schulman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 10:34 PM Subject: Tinning on old PCBs >I was cleaning a 20+ year old printed circuit board today, in the manner recently discussed here at length >(but by hand, I don't have a dishwasher). I was somewhat alarmed when some of the tinning flaked off the >copper tracks in places. The tracks themselves are fine, but evidently they had not been properly prepared >before tinning, so the tinning lost its grip. > >My questions is this: Is the copper itself sufficient to carry the currents, or is the tinning required to reduce >resistance? Or, putting it another way, is the tinning required, or is it just to assist in attaching components? >Or, putting it one last way, do I need to re-tin the bare spots? > >For what it's worth, this took place on the motherboard of my newly acquired Exidy Sorcerer #2, a Mark I >32K unit. This one came with a fair number of manuals and software (on tape, of course). > >Thanks, > >Louis > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 00:00:25 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Venix question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011220060025.40859.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: > I'm in need of the groups opinion...would it be worth while > changing the OS on my Pro380 from POS to Venix 2.0? Also, is there a > way of getting Venix to install on a RD52 drive? The docks I've seen > indicate that it won't. I'm not sure what version of Venix is on one of my Pros, but ISTR it fits on an RD51. Perhaps it's pre-v2.0. Caveat: I did not install it. It was there when the system was dropped off at my house. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 00:05:09 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: NCR 386/486 UNIX - Anyone remember this? In-Reply-To: <1008807228.3733.9.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <20011220060509.85938.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alex White wrote: > Wow! This reminds me of a machine i've got sitting in storage for me in > scotland - must remember to collect it sometime... Apparently it's a > 4-way 486 SMP box with passive backplane, which ran NCR UNIX. Came out > of bank though, hard disks had to be physically trashed - the whole 2 > cabinets of SCSI disks all were put thru with a hammer... We used machines like this at Lucent (since AT&T owned NCR at one time). I was the Solaris dude, so I didn't get into them much, but they were largish (larger than a VAX-11/750, anyway) with differential SCSI, MicroChannel for the older boxes, PCI for the newer ones, typically 4-way Pentia in the models we had, but slow - 4xP-90 in one case, for example. If someone blurted out a model number, I might recognize it, but I can't recall what we used; as I said, I didn't take care of them; I just walked past them to the aisles of SPARCserver 5000s and 3000s I _did_ take care of. Our group stopped buying them as soon as the suits stopped making us. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 00:11:40 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <200112192230.LAA17783@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <20011220061140.88249.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Greg Ewing wrote: > Ben Franchuk : > > > what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor > > Back when I used to spend long blissful evenings hand-assembling Z80 > programs [1] I got the impression that Z80 code was more compact than > 6502 code, being able to manipulate 16-bit values with single > instructions in many cases. If you had enough zero-page locations left over for your app after the OS was done with them, typically, 6502 code could be quite compact. Embedded stuff (like C= disk drives) was a little easier to write in that regard because you had the entire page to do as you wished. Infocom did just about the same with their Z-machines for the C-64 (which is why you had to power-down when you were done playing - the zero page was full of Z-machine values and the interpreter did not save them anywhere to restore them before exiting). I've always felt (personal impression) that a 4Mhz Z-80 could outperform a 1Mhz 6502, but I never got the chance to do any comparisons when faster chips (of both kinds) came out. I'd already moved on to 68000s. Because I like the 6502, I would hope that a 4Mhz 6502 could do a little better than a 4Mhz Z-80, but I'm not certain. The 6502 does have a one-cycle pipeline internally, and it does interleave CPU and memory operations efficiently (phi2 clock and what not), but I don't know the Z-80 to the same depth and can't make a fair comparison myself. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 19 21:10:29 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <20011220061140.88249.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C2156A5.8784887@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've always felt (personal impression) that a 4Mhz Z-80 could outperform > a 1Mhz 6502, but I never got the chance to do any comparisons when faster > chips (of both kinds) came out. I'd already moved on to 68000s. Because > I like the 6502, I would hope that a 4Mhz 6502 could do a little better > than a 4Mhz Z-80, but I'm not certain. The 6502 does have a one-cycle > pipeline internally, and it does interleave CPU and memory operations > efficiently (phi2 clock and what not), but I don't know the Z-80 to > the same depth and can't make a fair comparison myself. I suspect the memory interweave was a after thought as memory at that time was 2x faster than the CPU. The video/dram refresh was a good idea for the 6502/6800/6089. I am glad I did not have to program the 6502 however. Nowdays with all the pipelineing, prefetching and other stuff nobody knows how slow a cpu can be. At one time I looked at doing a 68000 cpu but the only small 68000 was the 68008 and it seemed too slow to be useful. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 20 02:44:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <20011220061140.88249.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006801c18934$b8570560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You might find it amusing to know that, back in '83-'84, I designed a terminal in two versions, one with a 68000 (overkill, and not really worth the extra investment) and one with a 65C02. For the functions required in the terminal, the 65C02 was MUCH faster. The most frequently executed loop was load left-justified ASCII byte with lsb hard-wired to '0' into index X, jump, indirect, indexed by X through a table pointing to the exact routine required for that character. This loop required no stack or other memory. It simply fetched from I/O and took appropriate action, in response to an interrupt. The rest of the time, it scratched itself while waiting for the next interrupt. The entire process took less time that the first instruction fetch of the 68K, not to mention its longer interrupt response. That's not to be taken as a general comparison, but it surely shows there were things a 32-bit CPU couldn't do faster than an 8-bitter. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:11 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > --- Greg Ewing wrote: > > Ben Franchuk : > > > > > what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor > > > > Back when I used to spend long blissful evenings hand-assembling Z80 > > programs [1] I got the impression that Z80 code was more compact than > > 6502 code, being able to manipulate 16-bit values with single > > instructions in many cases. > > If you had enough zero-page locations left over for your app after > the OS was done with them, typically, 6502 code could be quite > compact. Embedded stuff (like C= disk drives) was a little easier > to write in that regard because you had the entire page to do as > you wished. Infocom did just about the same with their Z-machines > for the C-64 (which is why you had to power-down when you were done > playing - the zero page was full of Z-machine values and the interpreter > did not save them anywhere to restore them before exiting). > > I've always felt (personal impression) that a 4Mhz Z-80 could outperform > a 1Mhz 6502, but I never got the chance to do any comparisons when faster > chips (of both kinds) came out. I'd already moved on to 68000s. Because > I like the 6502, I would hope that a 4Mhz 6502 could do a little better > than a 4Mhz Z-80, but I'm not certain. The 6502 does have a one-cycle > pipeline internally, and it does interleave CPU and memory operations > efficiently (phi2 clock and what not), but I don't know the Z-80 to > the same depth and can't make a fair comparison myself. > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 20 02:34:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <200112192230.LAA17783@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <006701c18934$b81d09a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've been on both sides of this question on a number of occasions and I've found that the real challenge is to figure out what defines a level playing field for such a comparison. I once concluded that running each processor at a rate amenable with the same memory bandwidth was appropriate, but there are a number of quesitons, still that have to be resolved. (1) the 6502 is designed in a way that lends itself very well to shared use of its memory, i.e. using the memory for the CPU during phase-2 and letting a memory-mapped video refresh circuit have it during phase-1. That's quite reasonable and impacts the 6502 very little, but, if you try to do the same thing with a Z80, you get tangled up with its variable cycle lengths pretty quickly. (2) the Z80 demands a pretty short cycle for its instruction fetch (M1) cycle, and, if that's to be the rate-determining step for the cmparison, i.e. if the memory bandwidth requirement is determined on that basis, (no wait-states allowed) then the 6502 will eat it alive. That, of course, is because 50% of its memory bandwidth will be frittered away due to the fact that the M1 cycle is short and has a wasted tail end (refresh cycle) while the 6502 doesn't have that burden. Further, if that determines the memory bandwidth, then the M1 cycle (~400 ns with 200ns memory of the era) means that a 4 MHz CPU wouldn't be able to run with it. Fairness might demand a wait state, but that would then raise the question of what's the bus bandwidth at which the 6502 will be run (assume a 20 MHz 6502 and a 20 MHz Z80, but use memory of their own era.) Also, the refresh cycle itself is a mite short for what the CPU does at 4 MHz. How would one stretch it to where it wouldn't impinge on the next memory cycle? If you have to share the memory bus of the 6502, why not the Z80 as well? If you can use timing tricks, why not on the 6502? I'd say use whatever timing tricks the two CPU's can live with, but run them to their best advantage. Run phase-1 on the 65-2 for only 25 ns, then switch to phase-2 for whatever time the Z80 uses the memory. Let the Z80 use a wait or two in the M1, and stretch the refresh so the cycle can be complete when the next cycle is in progress. Since non-M1 memory cycles are 3 clock ticks, the clock could be pretty fast, couldn't it? (Can you see how this gets tangled up in technical problems of fair comparison? That's BEFORE the question of what sort of benchmark software is to be used comes up.) The shortest 6502 instructions take two clock ticks, but some overlap the next instruction fetch. The shortest Z80 instructions take an M1 cycle, followed by refresh, to fetch, and I'm not sure whether they execute during the refresh (they're internal, so that's conceivable) or whether they produce an idle bus cycle. I also don't know what happens during that idle bus cycle. Simply sitting down and calculating the relative instruction timing might not be so easy. It certainly won't be easy to get right. My own experience has been that in controller applications, manipulation of 16-bit values doesn't come up as often as I once believed. Mostly it seems the values that are dealt with are 8 bits or fewer. Others may see this differently, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Ewing" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 3:30 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Ben Franchuk : > > > what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like > > the rabbit. > > Back when I used to spend long blissful evenings hand-assembling Z80 > programs [1] I got the impression that Z80 code was more compact than > 6502 code, being able to manipulate 16-bit values with single > instructions in many cases. Whether it was actually faster I don't > know, but I suspect it was, as long as you stuck to the 8080-like core > instructions which didn't take ridiculous numbers of cycles to > execute. > > [1] I didn't do it in a storage locker, although I did often > had the heater on in winter. > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 20 02:57:57 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <006d01c188e7$ee194160$2aed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <006901c18934$b881bee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you run a 20 MHz Z80 against a 20 MHz 6502, you'll find the 6502 performs WAY (3x-5x) faster than the Z80. It's difficult to base a comparison on clock rate alone. All 6502 memory cycles take 1 clock tick. Z80 memory cycles, aside from M1, take 3 clock ticks, with no wait states in use. If you run the 6502 at a rate that fully utilizes the memory bandwidth at a rate such that the Z80 can perform an M1 in the same amount of time, without wait states, the 6502 will always be faster, because it's running faster. The Z80 uses 1-1/2 clock ticks to execute its instruction fetch. If that's to be memory access window for each processor, and you run them both from static memory, and you allow minimal recovery time, e.g. use 10-15 ns memory, (just for the comparison) then you can use a 20 MHz Z80 and a 20 (actually 14) MHz 6502, and clock the 6502 with a 25ns low, 75ns high clock, and drive the Z80 with a square 20 MHz. That will be a 10 MHz clock for the 6502 and a 20 MHz clock for the Z80. I'd submit that the 6502 will still run rings around the Z80, since it is still going to be cycling memory at an average of 200 ns per cycle, while the 6502 does it a 100 ns rate. Surely a better comparison can be arranged. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:46 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > >Ben Franchuk : > > > >> what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like > >> the rabbit. > > > Depends... > > For the same instruction execution rate (ignores clocks and cycles) > the z80 is likely faster. However... if you have a 20mhz 6502 and > a 10mhz z80 it gets muddier with the 6502 being the faster. And > if you know one better than the other you can certainly exploit it > all the more. In the end it's not which one does a task faster, it's > what one you can code the task for faster. > > Sorta like asking apples or oranges. > > Allison > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 19 21:18:41 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <006d01c188e7$ee194160$2aed9a8d@ajp166> <006901c18934$b881bee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C215891.C04136F5@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > If you run a 20 MHz Z80 against a 20 MHz 6502, you'll find the 6502 performs WAY > (3x-5x) faster than the Z80. It's difficult to base a comparison on clock rate > alone. All 6502 memory cycles take 1 clock tick. Z80 memory cycles, aside from > M1, take 3 clock ticks, with no wait states in use. If you run the 6502 at a > rate that fully utilizes the memory bandwidth at a rate such that the Z80 can > perform an M1 in the same amount of time, without wait states, the 6502 will > always be faster, because it's running faster. The Z80 uses 1-1/2 clock ticks > to execute its instruction fetch. If that's to be memory access window for each > processor, and you run them both from static memory, and you allow minimal > recovery time, e.g. use 10-15 ns memory, (just for the comparison) then you can > use a 20 MHz Z80 and a 20 (actually 14) MHz 6502, and clock the 6502 with a 25ns > low, 75ns high clock, and drive the Z80 with a square 20 MHz. That will be a 10 > MHz clock for the 6502 and a 20 MHz clock for the Z80. I'd submit that the 6502 > will still run rings around the Z80, since it is still going to be cycling > memory at an average of 200 ns per cycle, while the 6502 does it a 100 ns rate. What happens if you look at the M1 cycle as 2 Z80 memory cycles (2 wait states). Now memory speed is the same for both but not the clock rate. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 20 10:24:31 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <3C215891.C04136F5@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben Franchuk at "Dec 19, 1 08:18:41 pm" Message-ID: <200112201624.IAA07266@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > What happens if you look at the M1 cycle as 2 Z80 memory cycles (2 wait > states). Now memory speed is the same for both but not the clock rate. But even with this artificial concept, the 6502 is still running through instructions in fewer average clock cycles. Granted, the Z80 has a good selection of more complex instructions that take fewer clock cycles than the equivalent 6502 code in total. How often they get employed for this advantage, however, directly affects their run-time impact of course. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- In memory of Douglas Adams ------------------------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 19 22:18:15 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <200112201624.IAA07266@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3C216687.3B4CCB93@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > But even with this artificial concept, the 6502 is still running through > instructions in fewer average clock cycles. Granted, the Z80 has a good > selection of more complex instructions that take fewer clock cycles than > the equivalent 6502 code in total. How often they get employed for this > advantage, however, directly affects their run-time impact of course. One real problem with the Z80 is that a there is a lot of unused/undefined instructions because of the complex instruction set, that have been decoded and used in software. This has a impact if you are not using a real chip but a emulator of some sort. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 20 11:52:11 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? In-Reply-To: <3C216687.3B4CCB93@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben Franchuk at "Dec 19, 1 09:18:15 pm" Message-ID: <200112201752.JAA11500@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > But even with this artificial concept, the 6502 is still running through > > instructions in fewer average clock cycles. Granted, the Z80 has a good > > selection of more complex instructions that take fewer clock cycles than > > the equivalent 6502 code in total. How often they get employed for this > > advantage, however, directly affects their run-time impact of course. > > One real problem with the Z80 is that a there is a lot of > unused/undefined > instructions because of the complex instruction set, that have been > decoded > and used in software. This has a impact if you are not using a real chip > but a emulator of some sort. Actually, for that matter, the NMOS 6502 suffers from this as well. There is a collection of valid opcodes that seem to work on the majority of NMOS 6502s and derivatives (virtually all Commodore 8-bits, for example, except the C65). These were replaced by new and documented opcodes in CMOS versions of the 6502, and the 65816. Most Commodore emulators worth their salt support these undocumented opcodes. They are useful sometimes for combining two operations in a shorter-executing single operation, but they were mostly used to obfuscate loaders instead which won't work on SuperCPUs or other accelerated C64s. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 20 07:58:23 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <004401c1895e$64cbe620$6b7b7b7b@ajp> None of that means much. At the same sped which one will do a long list of benchmarks faster is the only one that counts in the speed derby and which one is cheapest to implement for the specific case is likely number one. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:21 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? >If you run a 20 MHz Z80 against a 20 MHz 6502, you'll find the 6502 performs WAY >(3x-5x) faster than the Z80. It's difficult to base a comparison on clock rate >alone. All 6502 memory cycles take 1 clock tick. Z80 memory cycles, aside from >M1, take 3 clock ticks, with no wait states in use. If you run the 6502 at a >rate that fully utilizes the memory bandwidth at a rate such that the Z80 can >perform an M1 in the same amount of time, without wait states, the 6502 will >always be faster, because it's running faster. The Z80 uses 1-1/2 clock ticks >to execute its instruction fetch. If that's to be memory access window for each >processor, and you run them both from static memory, and you allow minimal >recovery time, e.g. use 10-15 ns memory, (just for the comparison) then you can >use a 20 MHz Z80 and a 20 (actually 14) MHz 6502, and clock the 6502 with a 25ns >low, 75ns high clock, and drive the Z80 with a square 20 MHz. That will be a 10 >MHz clock for the 6502 and a 20 MHz clock for the Z80. I'd submit that the 6502 >will still run rings around the Z80, since it is still going to be cycling >memory at an average of 200 ns per cycle, while the 6502 does it a 100 ns rate. > >Surely a better comparison can be arranged. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:46 PM >Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > >> >Ben Franchuk : >> > >> >> what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like >> >> the rabbit. >> >> >> Depends... >> >> For the same instruction execution rate (ignores clocks and cycles) >> the z80 is likely faster. However... if you have a 20mhz 6502 and >> a 10mhz z80 it gets muddier with the 6502 being the faster. And >> if you know one better than the other you can certainly exploit it >> all the more. In the end it's not which one does a task faster, it's >> what one you can code the task for faster. >> >> Sorta like asking apples or oranges. >> >> Allison >> >> >> > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 20 11:06:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 comparison (was RE: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <004401c1895e$64cbe620$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <001801c18978$9d61d5c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you run both the Z80 and the 6502 at the same clock rate, the 6502 will be quite a bit faster out of the chute and leave the z80 in the dust. There's long been argument as to which CPU is faster at a nominally 4:1 Z80/6502 clock ratio. There's never even been a debate over which CPU is faster at the same clock rate. I believe there's no comparison at all in that case. It wouldn't matter what percentage of16-bit operations you use as a comparison basis if that's your basis. The 6502 will always outperform the Z80 if they both run at the same clock rate, simply because of the difference in how the cycles are constructed around the clock. If you think you can come up with a procedure to serve as a basis for comparison in which a 4 MHz Z80 will outperform a 4 MHz 6502, wait-states or no, then please present it here for us to evaluate. That would be VERY interesting! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:58 AM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > None of that means much. At the same sped which one will do > a long list of benchmarks faster is the only one that counts in > the speed derby and which one is cheapest to implement for > the specific case is likely number one. > > Allison > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:21 AM > Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > >If you run a 20 MHz Z80 against a 20 MHz 6502, you'll find the 6502 > performs WAY > >(3x-5x) faster than the Z80. It's difficult to base a comparison on clock > rate > >alone. All 6502 memory cycles take 1 clock tick. Z80 memory cycles, aside > from > >M1, take 3 clock ticks, with no wait states in use. If you run the 6502 at > a > >rate that fully utilizes the memory bandwidth at a rate such that the Z80 > can > >perform an M1 in the same amount of time, without wait states, the 6502 > will > >always be faster, because it's running faster. The Z80 uses 1-1/2 clock > ticks > >to execute its instruction fetch. If that's to be memory access window for > each > >processor, and you run them both from static memory, and you allow minimal > >recovery time, e.g. use 10-15 ns memory, (just for the comparison) then you > can > >use a 20 MHz Z80 and a 20 (actually 14) MHz 6502, and clock the 6502 with a > 25ns > >low, 75ns high clock, and drive the Z80 with a square 20 MHz. That will be > a 10 > >MHz clock for the 6502 and a 20 MHz clock for the Z80. I'd submit that the > 6502 > >will still run rings around the Z80, since it is still going to be cycling > >memory at an average of 200 ns per cycle, while the 6502 does it a 100 ns > rate. > > > >Surely a better comparison can be arranged. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "ajp166" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:46 PM > >Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > > > > >> >Ben Franchuk : > >> > > >> >> what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like > >> >> the rabbit. > >> > >> > >> Depends... > >> > >> For the same instruction execution rate (ignores clocks and cycles) > >> the z80 is likely faster. However... if you have a 20mhz 6502 and > >> a 10mhz z80 it gets muddier with the 6502 being the faster. And > >> if you know one better than the other you can certainly exploit it > >> all the more. In the end it's not which one does a task faster, it's > >> what one you can code the task for faster. > >> > >> Sorta like asking apples or oranges. > >> > >> Allison > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 20 11:52:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <001101c1897f$1fb39800$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk >One real problem with the Z80 is that a there is a lot of >unused/undefined >instructions because of the complex instruction set, that have been >decoded >and used in software. This has a impact if you are not using a real chip >but a emulator of some sort. Most are either redundant or no-ops, those at are useful most good z80 emulators have them as they are copied in competitors z80s. Allison From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 20 00:50:28 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Kraft vs. IBM joystick innards comparison In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > So the IBM joystick can't be just a rebadged Tandy one. > > Ok, to be more accurate: it LOOKS like a re-badged Tandy joystick ;) > > OK, it could be a re-badged Tandy joystick housing and mechanical works > with slightly different pots and wiring. Ok, here is the scoop on these joysticks. I found an IBM badged one and a Kraft badged one. The IBM one had a PCjr connector on the end. I don't know if I have one for the IBM PC. In fact, I may have been mistaken and premature in saying that I have one for the IBM PC. I think all the ones I have may well be for the PCjr. I'll check tomorrow. At any rate, here are pictures of each and their innards: http://www.siconic.com/crap/joysticks/ The Kraft stick has pots labelled 365Z145K and the IBM are 365Z100K. There are also some capacitors (markings say 684Z) in series with the pots and joystick buttons on the IBM stick that are not present on the Kraft stick. So Tony's prediction as it were was right on. Tony, as always, gets the award for Intimate Knowledge of Something No Sane Person Should Have. The Kraft joystick works on my Apple //e. I found another IBM PCjr joystick today at a thrift store so I would classify these as "uncommon". BTW, these sticks can be configured for either self-centering or free-floating. I'm too tired and lazy to describe the mechanism properly, but basically there are these two tabs on the bottom of the stick (for each axis) that catches an armature that is holding down the self-centering spring inside. When you move the stick to a corner and then flip the tab, it catches into a slot on the spring arm and allows the stick to move around freely without the force from the spring pushing it back to center. Very clever. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From alan.pearson at cramer.com Thu Dec 20 03:04:26 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:24 2005 Subject: Off-Topic Toys Message-ID: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OTOH, if I could afford $10-40K I'd be very tempted to call Compaq up and > buy a DS20 or ES40 to run VMS on. Hang on for 10 years then you can get one for $75 ;-) From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Thu Dec 20 03:43:47 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Digital Group) Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0219A9@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > Dammit - I was offered a Digital Group machine earlier this > year and the only thing that stopped me was the horrendous shipping cost > from the US. > This thing had the (in)famous tape unit attached that > contained either 4 or 6 drives; can't remember. .... > > > >- -- > >Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd > > Ulp ... Adrian, what part of the US? Any idea what became of > the machine > eventually New York I think; I've still got all the correspondance on my rotting Winduhs partition at home that I *must* get off before it completely implodes. Again. The guy that had it wanted it to go to a good home so I doubt he'll have skipped it. Nice looking machine too; his home-made tape drive enclosure was a beaut. I'll try and check when I get home tonight, but it's the office xmas 'do' from 4pm so remembering things might be a bit fraught :) -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Thu Dec 20 03:51:38 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers) Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0219AB@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > Sent: 19 December 2001 17:54 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers) > > be fun to play on it. I have an SX-1 adapter that turns a CD32 into > sort of an A1200, but I haven't had the time to check it out and put > it together. Does anyone have any docs for that? The jumpers are > labelled, so there's not much guesswork, but any docs are more than > I have now. I haven't got any docs with my SX-1 either so I'm looking too. I picked it up for ukp2 at a boot sale so I wasn't complaining :) For some reason I guessed it was yet another way of turning the A500 core of the CD32 into a CDTV, same as the A570 CD-ROM did for the bog-standard A500. Speaking of the A570, has anyone got a spare PSU for one? > The other thing I wouldn't mind getting is a replacement CD-TV. I > had one that I bought new for $800 that was stolen when my house was > burglarized 9 years ago - they got my A500 (with WEDGE XT Short of epay I've only ever seen one CDTV and I snapped it up, then went on a crusade to find the remote and mouse that were missing, found an unused remote on epay for ukp12 and he threw in a used mouse and an unused boxed mouse too :) -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Thu Dec 20 03:56:39 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: C64 vs. Spectrum (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers ( SX64)) Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0219AC@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Goodwin [mailto:acme_ent@bellsouth.net] > Sent: 20 December 2001 05:33 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: C64 vs. Spectrum (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > (SX64)) > > Don't go near comp.sys.sinclair. "Commode" users get slammed > there on a > regular basis -- and hard. Conversely, don't go near any of the cbm newsgroups either; sometimes the arguments plunge to new depths of childishness, and more often than not the cbm-ers get their internet buddies to troll c.s.s till people start leaving. > The general opinion seems to be that the C64 folks stole the > best games > from the Spec, and cut price to run Sinclair out of the market. For me the C64 was too expensive when I was Speccy buying, and I only got *that* because I sold my ZX81. I'm not gonna say any more - might start another flamewar :) -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From wpointon at earthlink.net Thu Dec 20 06:13:55 2001 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (bill pointon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <011801c188d6$e0378b80$fe00a8c0@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: <0A044D3E-F543-11D5-B9F0-003065ED7126@earthlink.net> unfortunately i dont have a site and i am limited to slow rural dial up net access -- any help would be appreciated if some one has the space and time to leave it up for a while --- thanks -billp On Wednesday, December 19, 2001, at 04:46 PM, Robert Schaefer wrote: >> On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, bill pointon wrote: >> >>> hi -- im new to this list but an old fan of os2 -- i would love the >>> warp >>> server if you could part with it or copy it -- what would you want in >>> return ? ------- billp >> >> Hmmm, your firstborn? >> Nah, probably just something cool someday. If you have an upload >> site, >> there's not even postage. Did I mention it's the smp version? > > Did you ever find a site? I might be able to swing something, if I can > get > a copy too... ^_^ > >> >> Doc > > Bob > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 20 07:55:19 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <003f01c1895d$f7d0baa0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Z80 uses it's time differently... Then again how many instuctions would it take to do a 16bit add (result in register or convenient place). The fact that both are still viable suggests they have adaquate speed and a rich enough instruction set to do many tasks. Last item, z80, Z180 and Z280 do not have the same timing. For example the Z280 can be run at a bus speed slower than the CPU speed and with the MMU and cache running in burst mode you get a very different bus utilization model. Generally the only things that count is: Can the cpu do the task? What cpu are you familiar with? What is the total cost to implement the task (firmware/software counts)? Politcial impacts (company prefers, owns, has, used before). Do I think z80 is better than 6502? Yes, I'm biased. Is 6502 a good cpu? I think so, it certainly beat the 6800 and a lot of others in the 8bit space. Would I design with it? No, lack of experience, no on hand software base for it, limited tools to work with it. Would I consider it, likely. I have 6502, 6800, 1802, SC/MP, SC/MPII, ti9900, 8048/9/874x, 8080, 8085, z80, Z180 Z280, 6809 and T-11 to pick from. For a new design (personal) of some size say to run an OS then Z280 or T-11 for single chip I have 8748, 8749 and 8751s around. For simple controllers 8085 is easy to use if it grows out of the 8749. Then again I also have upd78pg11s too. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:17 AM Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) >I've been on both sides of this question on a number of occasions and I've found >that the real challenge is to figure out what defines a level playing field for >such a comparison. I once concluded that running each processor at a rate >amenable with the same memory bandwidth was appropriate, but there are a number >of quesitons, still that have to be resolved. > >(1) the 6502 is designed in a way that lends itself very well to shared use of >its memory, i.e. using the memory for the CPU during phase-2 and letting a >memory-mapped video refresh circuit have it during phase-1. That's quite >reasonable and impacts the 6502 very little, but, if you try to do the same >thing with a Z80, you get tangled up with its variable cycle lengths pretty >quickly. > >(2) the Z80 demands a pretty short cycle for its instruction fetch (M1) cycle, >and, if that's to be the rate-determining step for the cmparison, i.e. if the >memory bandwidth requirement is determined on that basis, (no wait-states >allowed) then the 6502 will eat it alive. That, of course, is because 50% of >its memory bandwidth will be frittered away due to the fact that the M1 cycle is >short and has a wasted tail end (refresh cycle) while the 6502 doesn't have that >burden. Further, if that determines the memory bandwidth, then the M1 cycle >(~400 ns with 200ns memory of the era) means that a 4 MHz CPU wouldn't be able >to run with it. > >Fairness might demand a wait state, but that would then raise the question of >what's the bus bandwidth at which the 6502 will be run (assume a 20 MHz 6502 and >a 20 MHz Z80, but use memory of their own era.) Also, the refresh cycle itself >is a mite short for what the CPU does at 4 MHz. How would one stretch it to >where it wouldn't impinge on the next memory cycle? If you have to share the >memory bus of the 6502, why not the Z80 as well? If you can use timing tricks, >why not on the 6502? I'd say use whatever timing tricks the two CPU's can live >with, but run them to their best advantage. Run phase-1 on the 65-2 for only 25 >ns, then switch to phase-2 for whatever time the Z80 uses the memory. Let the >Z80 use a wait or two in the M1, and stretch the refresh so the cycle can be >complete when the next cycle is in progress. Since non-M1 memory cycles are 3 >clock ticks, the clock could be pretty fast, couldn't it? > >(Can you see how this gets tangled up in technical problems of fair comparison? >That's BEFORE the question of what sort of benchmark software is to be used >comes up.) > >The shortest 6502 instructions take two clock ticks, but some overlap the next >instruction fetch. The shortest Z80 instructions take an M1 cycle, followed by >refresh, to fetch, and I'm not sure whether they execute during the refresh >(they're internal, so that's conceivable) or whether they produce an idle bus >cycle. I also don't know what happens during that idle bus cycle. Simply >sitting down and calculating the relative instruction timing might not be so >easy. It certainly won't be easy to get right. > >My own experience has been that in controller applications, manipulation of >16-bit values doesn't come up as often as I once believed. Mostly it seems the >values that are dealt with are 8 bits or fewer. Others may see this >differently, however. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Greg Ewing" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 3:30 PM >Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > > >> Ben Franchuk : >> >> > what is the faster CPU -- A 6502 or Z80 style processor like >> > the rabbit. >> >> Back when I used to spend long blissful evenings hand-assembling Z80 >> programs [1] I got the impression that Z80 code was more compact than >> 6502 code, being able to manipulate 16-bit values with single >> instructions in many cases. Whether it was actually faster I don't >> know, but I suspect it was, as long as you stuck to the 8080-like core >> instructions which didn't take ridiculous numbers of cycles to >> execute. >> >> [1] I didn't do it in a storage locker, although I did often >> had the heater on in winter. >> >> Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ >> University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | >> Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | >> greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ >> >> > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 20 10:42:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <003f01c1895d$f7d0baa0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <000f01c18975$41f8fc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things you've got to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately deletes the Z180, and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. There are derivatives of the 6502 still in production, but they are few. There are derivative of the Z80 being produced as well. None of the former are 6502's, and none of the latter are Z80's. Your're right, in that they use their time differently. Because of the vast architectural differences, one has to be cautious about chosing a comparison. The first basis, before chosing a set of instructions for a comparision, however, is selection of an appropriate timebase. The Z80 uses its clock differently than the 6502 does. The Z80 never uses fewer than 2 clock ticks for a complete memory cycle, ant 2 ticks is only the lenght of the M1 cycle. That's followed by the refresh cycle, during which, if I understand the process correctly, the Z80 decodes that opcode. "Normal" memory cycles are three clock-ticks in length, though only thwo of them are actually used during the actual access of memory. The memory access portion of the M1 cycle is essentially a The 6502 uses one clock tick for each CPU cycle. External hardware determines how long the memory access is, though the period beginning with valid addresses and read/write begins just under half-way into phase-1 and continues throughout phase-2, each of which is actually more-or-less half a clock cycle long. If you don't attempt to do transparent memory sharing along the phase-1/phase-2 boundary, a memory cycle can be as long as 1-1/2 clock ticks. All of these constraints are based on the addition of no wait-states. The Z80 has excellent support for wait-state insertion during any cycle other than the refresh cycle. The early NMOS 6502 supports wait state insertion on read cycles only. There are ways of getting around this, but the Z80 certainly makes it easier than does the 6502. CMOS 6502's support wait states on both read and write cycles. If you run each of the two at a rate that allows each to use its shortest memory cycle as the basic access window to memory, the 6502 will probably outperform the Z80 in a task that operates on 8-bit data in an 8-bit way. The more 16 or 32-bit things you do, the more it favors the Z80, due to its inherent features such as the 16-bit registers and operatons on them without intervening instruction fetches. If you compare the rate at which they operate, however, the 6502 has features that enable it to do 16-bit things quite handily in memory. Since one can view the 6502's page-zero as an extended register set, with instructions dedicated for it. Those instructions include indirection into main memory, which make 16-bit operations remarkably fast for a CPU that has no 16-bit registers. Have a look at it and contemplate that. It's a VERY clever design, intended to make for a small, hence, cheap, CPU chip. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:55 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > Z80 uses it's time differently... Then again how many instuctions > would it take to do a 16bit add (result in register or convenient place). > > The fact that both are still viable suggests they have adaquate > speed and a rich enough instruction set to do many tasks. > > Last item, z80, Z180 and Z280 do not have the same timing. > For example the Z280 can be run at a bus speed slower than > the CPU speed and with the MMU and cache running in burst > mode you get a very different bus utilization model. > > Generally the only things that count is: > > Can the cpu do the task? > What cpu are you familiar with? > What is the total cost to implement the task (firmware/software counts)? > Politcial impacts (company prefers, owns, has, used before). > > Do I think z80 is better than 6502? Yes, I'm biased. Is 6502 a good cpu? > I think so, it certainly beat the 6800 and a lot of others in the 8bit > space. > Would I design with it? No, lack of experience, no on hand software base > for it, limited tools to work with it. Would I consider it, likely. > > I have 6502, 6800, 1802, SC/MP, SC/MPII, ti9900, 8048/9/874x, 8080, > 8085, z80, Z180 Z280, 6809 and T-11 to pick from. For a new design > (personal) of some size say to run an OS then Z280 or T-11 for single chip > I have 8748, 8749 and 8751s around. For simple controllers 8085 is easy > to use if it grows out of the 8749. Then again I also have upd78pg11s too. > Why do you see the 8085 as growing out of the 8049? The 8085 was quite mature when the 8049 came out, so they'r probably not from a common heritage, and the instruction sets are so totally different that one might believe they're even from a different manufacturer. The one that Intel claimed grew out of the 8048/49 was the 8051. Of all these old-timers, that's the only one that still has life, and it has LIFE in a big way! There are many variants, with the same common instruction set, but many different hardware features. The Dallas 89C420 runs at, 50 MIPS, which certainly breathes life into the line. There are bit-banging things that you can do with that one that few of the others above could handle in less than 10x the time, yet the architecture supports a full 64K of data space and a full 64K of code space, with memory mapped I/O in the data space. > > >> > >> > > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Dec 20 12:09:56 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: <000f01c18975$41f8fc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C223784.22670.97391BE9@localhost> My favorite topic - I have to come out of hybernation :) > If you run each of the two at a rate that allows each to use its shortest memory > cycle as the basic access window to memory, the 6502 will probably outperform > the Z80 in a task that operates on 8-bit data in an 8-bit way. The more 16 or > 32-bit things you do, the more it favors the Z80, due to its inherent features > such as the 16-bit registers and operatons on them without intervening > instruction fetches. Well, only to an extend - as usual we have to see the registers as some cache - and as soon as your datasize outruns the cache size you're soly dependant on the load and store interface ... and here the 6502 is not only faster but also better suited if you forget about memory as an enemy but wellcome it as a huge registerfile. And the 6502 speeds away again. > If you compare the rate at which they operate, however, the 6502 has features > that enable it to do 16-bit things quite handily in memory. Since one can view > the 6502's page-zero as an extended register set, with instructions dedicated > for it. Those instructions include indirection into main memory, which make > 16-bit operations remarkably fast for a CPU that has no 16-bit registers. Exactly. > Have a look at it and contemplate that. It's a VERY clever design, intended to > make for a small, hence, cheap, CPU chip. Also, if you realy want 'ultimate speed' you have to look at actual Versions. close Z80 relatives (like 180) are available up to 32 MHz (I have seen only 20s, but well) while actual versions of the classic 6502 and 65816 is able to do 14 MHz. Now take in account that a clock ratio of 1:3 to 1:4 for 6502 vs. Z80 (*) is a good rule of thump, so a 14 MHz 6502 equals a 42 to 56 MHz Z80. Quite a racer ... Gruss H. (*) I remember the the classical 3:1 or 4:1 clock ratio from various tests. There have been lots of comparions around 1980 about that, and all eded up around 1:4. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Dec 20 12:31:58 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: <3C223784.22670.97391BE9@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 20, 01 07:09:56 pm Message-ID: <200112201831.NAA22102@wordstock.com> > > Also, if you realy want 'ultimate speed' you have to look at actual Versions. > close Z80 relatives (like 180) are available up to 32 MHz (I have seen only > 20s, but well) while actual versions of the classic 6502 and 65816 is able > to do 14 MHz. Now take in account that a clock ratio of 1:3 to 1:4 for 6502 The 65816 can go up to 20Mhz. It is used in the SuperCPU for the 64 and 128. > vs. Z80 (*) is a good rule of thump, so a 14 MHz 6502 equals a 42 to 56 MHz > Z80. Quite a racer ... Cheers, Bryan Pope From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Dec 20 12:44:26 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: <200112201831.NAA22102@wordstock.com> References: <3C223784.22670.97391BE9@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 20, 01 07:09:56 pm Message-ID: <3C223F9A.9775.9758B41B@localhost> > > Also, if you realy want 'ultimate speed' you have to look at actual Versions. > > close Z80 relatives (like 180) are available up to 32 MHz (I have seen only > > 20s, but well) while actual versions of the classic 6502 and 65816 is able > > to do 14 MHz. Now take in account that a clock ratio of 1:3 to 1:4 for 6502 > The 65816 can go up to 20Mhz. It is used in the SuperCPU for the 64 and > 128. I heared about that - just the Super CPU also uses WDC65C816S which are only specified up to 14 MHz ... I truly belive they are even above 20 MHz reliable, just not specified ! Ciao Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From tony.eros at machm.org Thu Dec 20 14:08:05 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Power Series In-Reply-To: <3C237B35.994348E2@diablonet.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011220150550.0e723e80@mail.njd.concentric.com> A few weeks ago, at least, there was a Crimson system in a nearby surplus equipment warehouse. Where are you located? -- Tony At 01:11 PM 12/21/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Please see embedded comments. > > > Well, speak of the devil... and all that. After mentioning yesterday >that a > > Power Series machine would be nice to have, I found that somebody >brought > > one home for me. (seriously...) > >Thats pretty cool.. I've got a bunch of smaller SGI machines including >Indigo, >Indigo2, and Indy, but nothing larger. I have an entire Crimson >boardset, but >no chassis for it, alas. > > > So before I get started here, let me also mention that it would be >nice to > > have: > > > > A Symbolics Lisp Machine > > A Next Dimension Cube > > A PDP-11 in a small rack with blinkenlights and core > >I'd love to get my hands on a LISP machine someday, too - if anyone ever > >comes across one thats up for grabs, let me know! I'll "move heaven and >earth" to try and pick that up! > >I've got a PDP 11/34a with core, but its not really a complete system. I > >really need some sort of disk controller and subsystem for it, and I >also need >to figure out the pinout for the console terminal connector. > >I've got a NeXT Cube and a Slab, but the Cube is the original 68030 >model >and doesn't have the NeXTDimension board. If you're ever interested in a > >road trip, though, noticing that you're in Illinois, the University of >Michigan >Property Disposition warehouse had a NeXTDimension Cube laying around >about a month ago; $50, I think. I would've picked it up myself, but I >was >totally out of money at the time. I'd imagine it's stilll there, though. > > > ... enough of that, though. :) > > > > So, I now am the proud owner of a Power Series VGX machine. It seems >to > > have 4 40Mhz CPUs in it, a full compliment of graphics boards, FDDI, >and > > some extra video I/O boards. > >That's a relatively higher-end one, then... 4D/340, perhaps? There's a >neat >site called This Old SGI that talks a lot about getting these old Power >Series >machines running. You can find it pretty quickly with Google. > > > It's a deskside type machine, the whole thing fitting in one very >large > > tower --err... coffee-table :) > > > > Firstly, this machine is in need of: > > > > The plastic "skirt" piece for the right side of the chassis. > > > > The plastic back plate. > > > > The power-cable. > > > > Keyboard, monitor, mouse (all of which I can probably get locally... > >I checked a couple of days ago and there is an original SGI 4D keyboard >and mouse set on eBay for not too much... less than $10, I think. I'm >not >sure how much longer it'll be there, though. > >I'd probably give up on finding the skins for the machine - I've never >really seen them turn up by themselves, and usually, MACHINES that >turn up are missing pieces of them. The power cable's probably going >to have to be a homemade job, too, as I don't see them turn up very >often, but from what I gather, they shouldn't be too hard to assemble. > > > (that's it.. I think I have the entire machine otherwise) > > > > Does anyone know where I can get these, or (in the case of the >power-cord, > > for instance) parts to make them? > >I've heard that you can find the connectors for the power cord at >hardware >stores, but I can't confirm that myself. > > > Any warnings/information/antic dotes for these machines? > > > I do intend to use the thing. I also intend to use it at home. It >appears > > to require 20 Amp service, though, and I have no good 20 Amp outlet >within > > reach. I do have some 20 Amp and a couple 30 Amp fuses (Yes, fuses. >I > > intend to replace the one I hook this to with a mini-breaker) in the >box, > > which I intend to trace before I decide where to plug it in. It may >be that > > I'll contract somebody to run a 20 Amp outlet for this machine. (Never > > > having done AC wiring work on my own, I feel that I don't want to >start by > > wiring an outlet for this beast) Otherwise, the plan will be to plug >it > > into a circuit with a highly rated fuse on it, and unplug everything >else. > > Any holes in this plan? The breaker on the power-supply is rated 16 >Amps, > > btw. I have no idea how much pull to expect from a monitor -- anyone >know > > whether I can safely use both on the same circuit? That would >simplify > > things. > > > > I believe a best option is to have somebody run a line up from the > > washer/dryer hookups in the basement. Those are hooked to 30-amp >fuses > > already and have cutoff switches. As long as nobody does laundry >while the > > machine's running, then, it would be fine. :) > > > > Lastly, even before I get this thing plugged in, I'd like to inventory >it, > > and check it for health. What should I look for? > >I'd DEFINITELY suggest taking a look at the power supply (and fuse) >before >you begin. Make sure the power transistors and caps are in good order. I >say >this because the power supplies on these machines are getting a little >old and >they are known for being somewhat iffy. I've had a similar supply (on a >SGI >Crimson machine) flame out on me before - it makes a very spectacular >noise! > >That, incidentally, is where the Crimson boardset came from... I wish I >would >have saved the chassis from the Dumpster, too (this was at work when we >had >picked up an old Crimson from a customer as scrap once and were messing >around with it). Ah, well. I'm still trying to find another SGI VME >machine to >this day. Maybe an Onyx or something :) > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > >Kind regards, > >Sean Caron >scaron@engin.umich.edu >root@diablonet.net From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 13:57:02 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <200112192221.fBJMLxX32668@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011220195702.64152.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Dittman wrote: > At one place I worked we had a 9-track tape drive that would take full > size reels, and used a simple hub instead of a takeup reel. I always > expected to have the tape despool on the takeup hub, but it never did. I would have expected it, too, even after seeing a TS03 run. > > > > > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive > > > > > for $75. > I can now read TK50, TK70, DLT (up to 20/40GB), DAT (up to 4/8GB), 8mm > (2GB and 5GB), 3480, and 3490 at home (plus some of the QIC and Travan, > but I forget which as they aren't connected). I think I'm limited to (from that list) TK50, DAT (DDS-1 and DDS-2), 8mm (2Gb only) and some QIC (6250, IIRC). I can add to that DECtape (TU56), DECtape-II (TU58) and DECcassette (TU60 - digital cassettes like Sellam was describing here recently). > Next drive to find is the TU58. Trade a TU58 (dual mech from inside an 11/730) for a 9-track SCSI? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Dec 20 14:04:19 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" Message-ID: Interenting topic. How the hell do you build electronics that survives 15000G ! Got any technical info on RF proximity fuses ? I read somewhere that they used the capacitance between shell nozecone and target to pull the osc off frequency, a bit like a Theramin. BTW, the Germans developed a remotely controlled TV guided bomb during WW2. Luckily for the allies the picture broke up as the bomb approached its target and development was stopped. Chris From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 20 14:06:49 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > The IBM PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef contains a pinout of the hard > disk connector. The signals look to be almost a subset of the MCA > signals. It certainly doesn't look like an ESDI interface. > > I guess you could call it 'IDE', but it's not the same interface as is > used on more normal PCs. Maybe this is an early nonstandard IDE implementation? We all know too well how IBM liked to do things "their way"... We wouldn't have PS/2 hardware at all if IBM had stuck to the then emerging standards of the time. -Toth From dittman at dittman.net Wed Dec 19 16:25:58 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Nile 150 Message-ID: <200112192225.fBJMPwK32677@narnia.int.dittman.net> At the place I picked up my 9-track tape drive they had a Nile 150 system with storage unit that they're looking to unload. I don't know anything about the system (nor did they, other than the guy telling me about the system said it has MIPS R4x00 CPUs). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Dec 20 08:52:55 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Nile 150 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146741F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> How big is this thing? And no ideas as to what it is? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Eric Dittman [mailto:dittman@dittman.net] ! Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 5:26 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Nile 150 ! ! ! At the place I picked up my 9-track tape drive they had a Nile 150 ! system with storage unit that they're looking to unload. I don't ! know anything about the system (nor did they, other than the guy ! telling me about the system said it has MIPS R4x00 CPUs). ! -- ! Eric Dittman ! dittman@dittman.net ! Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ ! From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Dec 20 09:43:10 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Nile 150 In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146741F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: David Woyciesjes wrote: > How big is this thing? And no ideas as to what it is? It's a Pyramid SMP Unix box from around '96. Runs Simix, a SVR4-derived Unix. Typically used as big-ass (as in terabyte range) database servers. There may be a Linux port for the architecture, but I'm too lazy to check. Size clearly depends on configuration, but "not small" would be a good guess. Anyone know where this jewel is located? Cheerz, Chris. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 ! From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Dec 20 10:21:22 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Nile 150 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467422@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Chris Kennedy [mailto:chris@mainecoon.com] ! ! ! David Woyciesjes wrote: ! ! > How big is this thing? And no ideas as to what it is? ! ! It's a Pyramid SMP Unix box from around '96. Runs Simix, a ! SVR4-derived Unix. Typically used as big-ass (as in ! terabyte range) database servers. ! ! There may be a Linux port for the architecture, but ! I'm too lazy to check. ! ! Size clearly depends on configuration, but "not small" ! would be a good guess. ! ! Anyone know where this jewel is located? ! ! Cheerz, ! Chris. I must say, depending on location, I am definitely interested... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu Dec 20 12:02:21 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Nile 150 Message-ID: <200112201802.NAA18364@mail.gcfn.org> You wrote: >! From: Chris Kennedy [mailto:chris@mainecoon.com] >! >! >! David Woyciesjes wrote: >! >! > How big is this thing? And no ideas as to what it is? >! >! It's a Pyramid SMP Unix box from around '96. Runs Simix, a >! SVR4-derived Unix. Typically used as big-ass (as in >! terabyte range) database servers. >! >! There may be a Linux port for the architecture, but >! I'm too lazy to check. >! >! Size clearly depends on configuration, but "not small" >! would be a good guess. >! >! Anyone know where this jewel is located? Dallas. :( That's too far from Ohio for me. Altho, if anyone wants to deliver it, I'll happily accept it... Bob From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 20 13:03:55 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Nile 150 In-Reply-To: <200112201802.NAA18364@mail.gcfn.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Robert F Schaefer wrote: > > Dallas. :( That's too far from Ohio for me. Altho, if anyone wants to > deliver it, I'll happily accept it... Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Me! Me! I have a brother **with pickup** in Dallas!!! So, how big is it? Doc From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Dec 20 12:43:01 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Nile 150 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146742D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! >! David Woyciesjes wrote: ! >! ! >! > How big is this thing? And no ideas as to what it is? ! >! ! >! It's a Pyramid SMP Unix box from around '96. Runs Simix, a ! >! SVR4-derived Unix. Typically used as big-ass (as in ! >! terabyte range) database servers. ! >! ! >! There may be a Linux port for the architecture, but ! >! I'm too lazy to check. ! >! ! >! Size clearly depends on configuration, but "not small" ! >! would be a good guess. ! >! ! >! Anyone know where this jewel is located? ! ! Dallas. :( That's too far from Ohio for me. Altho, if ! anyone wants to deliver it, I'll happily accept it... Hmmm, well, you're closer than New Haven, CT... Delivery would probably cost an arm and a leg... Bummer... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From pechter at ureach.com Thu Dec 20 13:38:55 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Nile 150 Message-ID: <200112201938.OAA18995@stage20.ureach.com> ---- On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman (dittman@dittman.net) wrote: > At the place I picked up my 9-track tape drive they had a Nile 150 > system with storage unit that they're looking to unload. I don't > know anything about the system (nor did they, other than the guy > telling me about the system said it has MIPS R4x00 CPUs). > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ Boy, I never worked on the Nile's but I did on the MIS-S Pyramid DC/OSx boxes. Slick stuff. As an old DEC and Pyramid guy I was amazed how they had to kludge clustering into Unix boxes and how Sun took most of the stuff they're doing from Pyramid's early work in the area. Bill Pechter bpechter@monmouth.com From bills at adrenaline.com Thu Dec 20 14:06:35 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:25 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... Message-ID: Sellam quoted on cnn.com: http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/20/geek.gifts.idg/index.html And not badly mangled either! From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 20 14:44:14 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:27 2005 Subject: Nile 150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Robert F Schaefer wrote: > > > > > Dallas. :( That's too far from Ohio for me. Altho, if anyone wants to > > deliver it, I'll happily accept it... > > Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Me! Me! > > I have a brother **with pickup** in Dallas!!! I think I could prolly manage to pick this thing up and bring it to Houston. I've always wanted a Pyramid box to use for portability testing of open source software :) Would this thing fit in the bed of a typical pickup truck? How much does it's current owner want for it? -Toth From dittman at dittman.net Thu Dec 20 15:03:37 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Nile 150 In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Dec 20, 2001 02:44:14 PM Message-ID: <200112202103.fBKL3bP03283@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Robert F Schaefer wrote: > > > > > > > > Dallas. :( That's too far from Ohio for me. Altho, if anyone wants to > > > deliver it, I'll happily accept it... > > > > Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Me! Me! > > > > I have a brother **with pickup** in Dallas!!! > > I think I could prolly manage to pick this thing up and bring it to > Houston. I've always wanted a Pyramid box to use for portability testing > of open source software :) > > Would this thing fit in the bed of a typical pickup truck? > > How much does it's current owner want for it? This should fit in the bed of a typical pickup, but I don't know if that's exactly the best way to ship this. I don't know what the place wants for the system, but they've tried to sell it for a while now without success, so my guess is probably the value in scrap. If anyone is serious about this system, I'll pass on the place's phone number and email address. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jss at subatomix.com Thu Dec 20 14:56:21 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Nile 150 In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146742D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011220145339.J94962-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! # David Woyciesjes wrote: > ! # > ! # | How big is this thing? And no ideas as to what it is? > ! # > ! # It's a Pyramid SMP Unix box from around '96. Runs Simix, a > ! # SVR4-derived Unix. Typically used as big-ass (as in > ! # terabyte range) database servers. > ! # > ! # Size clearly depends on configuration, but "not small" > ! # would be a good guess. > ! # > ! # Anyone know where this jewel is located? > ! > ! Dallas. :( That's too far from Ohio for me. Altho, if > ! anyone wants to deliver it, I'll happily accept it... > > Hmmm, well, you're closer than New Haven, CT... Delivery would > probably cost an arm and a leg... Bummer... Do I need to make Yet Another Trip To Texas again? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dittman at dittman.net Thu Dec 20 14:58:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Nile 150 In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146741F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Dec 20, 2001 09:52:55 AM Message-ID: <200112202058.fBKKwXk03241@narnia.int.dittman.net> > How big is this thing? And no ideas as to what it is? > ! -----Original Message----- > ! From: Eric Dittman [mailto:dittman@dittman.net] > ! Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 5:26 PM > ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > ! Subject: Nile 150 > ! > ! > ! At the place I picked up my 9-track tape drive they had a Nile 150 > ! system with storage unit that they're looking to unload. I don't > ! know anything about the system (nor did they, other than the guy > ! telling me about the system said it has MIPS R4x00 CPUs). The system unit is about a full-size rack. The storage system (if I was looking at the right box) is another full-size rack. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Dec 20 15:38:41 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Nile 150 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467437@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jeffrey S. Sharp [mailto:jss@subatomix.com] ! ! > ! # Anyone know where this jewel is located? ! > ! ! > ! Dallas. :( That's too far from Ohio for me. Altho, if ! > ! anyone wants to deliver it, I'll happily accept it... ! > ! > Hmmm, well, you're closer than New Haven, CT... Delivery would ! > probably cost an arm and a leg... Bummer... ! ! Do I need to make Yet Another Trip To Texas again? It looks like someone down there spoke up for it... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From jss at subatomix.com Thu Dec 20 14:53:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011220143301.D94962-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > I had sort of gotten the impression that PCs don't count on this > > list. > > I guess the reason mauy of the regulars here don't talk about PCs much > is that we feel there are some rather better machines around :-) At least in my case, other than a brief stint with a TRS-80, I've been a PC user since day one (of me using a computer). Thus PCs are old hat and mundane to me. Generally, I want to have the newest/fastest/biggest stuff on my PC. I retrocompute because there exist different computing cultures out there than the one in which I developed. Each has its own luring force; folklore and 'exotic' (to a PC user) hardware and software are common draws. Newest/fastest/biggest is not a concern here; it is more important for me to capture a computer in a historically accurate configuration. Some of the stuff that interests me is not >=10 years old, but you've got to draw the line somewhere to define what cmps can be classic. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 20 14:53:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: from "Boatman on the River of Suck" at Dec 20, 1 02:14:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 569 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011220/47259baf/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 20 16:03:55 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I guess the reason mauy of the regulars here don't talk about PCs much is > > > that we feel there are some rather better machines around :-) > > > > Anyway, PS/2's are more interesting than your standard, plain-vanilla PC. > > Probably, but that's not saying much :-).... > > The problem with PS/2s as far as I am concerned is that they're full of > custom silicon, and the only PS/2 hardware manual I have (Hardware > Interface Technical Reference) doesn't include a single schematic or even > a pinout of all the custom chips. So they're not that interesting for me. I have all the technical schematics and IBM-internal hardware repair manuals. What do you need? Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 20 15:02:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Dec 20, 1 02:06:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 732 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011220/79617d2d/attachment.ksh From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Dec 20 15:05:56 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Certainly more time consuming when they need reapir or upgrade (my feelings strictly) -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Boatman on the River of Suck Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 1:14 PM To: Tony Duell Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Hi, all. > > I had sort of gotten the impression that PCs don't count on this list. > > The original charter of this list specifically said that PCs (10 years > old or more) were on-topic here. They're computers after all. > > I guess the reason mauy of the regulars here don't talk about PCs much is > that we feel there are some rather better machines around :-) Anyway, PS/2's are more interesting than your standard, plain-vanilla PC. Peace... Sridhar From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 20 15:29:07 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Maybe this is an early nonstandard IDE implementation? We all know too >well how IBM liked to do things "their way"... We wouldn't have PS/2 >hardware at all if IBM had stuck to the then emerging standards of the >time. A standard which IBM set, along with quite a few other things that either they developed or were an early adopter of. You can thank the PS/2's for things you use every day, such as VGA, the HD 3.5" floppy drive, PS/2 mouse/keyboard ports, etc. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Dec 20 14:55:11 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662C9@exc-reo1> > pete@dunnington.u-net.com [SMTP:pete@dunnington.u-net.com] wrote: > >How many sheets are in the set? I wonder if you could copy it. I know you >don't have regular access to a copier, and not to an A3 copier, but the >schematic in sections would be useful. But first, I'll see how far I get >now I know the pinouts. The obvious places to look would be www.pdp8.net and www.pdp8.org but neither seem to have that particular printset. I do have access to a 600dpi scanner that can do up to 11"x17" and I've scanned printsets with it successfully. But I don't have that one - or anything PDP-8 related ... anyone have WT78 printsets or docs? :-) Antonio From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 20 17:33:15 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips In-Reply-To: "Carlini, Antonio" "RE: DEC bus driver/receiver chips" (Dec 20, 12:55) References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662C9@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <10112202333.ZM28531@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 20, 12:55, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > The obvious places to look > would be www.pdp8.net and www.pdp8.org > but neither seem to have that particular > printset. David has very kindly scanned the M8650 (Asynchronous Data Interface) and related parts printset and put them up on www.pdp8.net. Now I think I know what is wrong with my board, and I'm off to fix it :-) > I do have access to a 600dpi scanner > that can do up to 11"x17" and I've > scanned printsets with it successfully. > But I don't have that one - or anything > PDP-8 related ... anyone have WT78 > printsets or docs? :-) That would be nice -- I have a VT/78 but no docs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 20 14:56:04 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips In-Reply-To: David Gesswein "Re: DEC bus driver/receiver chips" (Dec 20, 8:39) References: <200112201339.IAA28901@drs-esg.com> Message-ID: <10112202056.ZM28044@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 20, 8:39, David Gesswein wrote: > Threads on DEC chip crosses Thanks for those. I knew about the Signetics 8xxx series chips, as I have a Mullard/Signetics data book with the whole set. Vety useful for PDP-8's :-) > I have scanned my KL8E print set (M8650) (and a bunch of other common 8/E > boards I didn't have online). > http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=262 That should be *extremely* helpful. Thanks very much! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 20 14:56:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (SX64) In-Reply-To: <20011220195228.3905.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 20, 1 11:52:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 946 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011220/137ff15a/attachment.ksh From PeterGreenhill at aol.com Fri Dec 21 01:40:14 2001 From: PeterGreenhill at aol.com (PeterGreenhill@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <9e.1f725f27.2954415e@aol.com> I have a DECpc 320/325 with a clean manual more or less the first pc edition hard disc 10 mg ! original monitor to-? offers Peter Greenhill From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 02:00:27 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Now I'm impressed. Message-ID: Hey, all. I posted some questions about VMS a couple of weeks ago, got some good answers, mostly "where to start" and have been scratching up for a copy to go on my VS3100. I have Alpha OpenVMS, but it seems more "fitting" on the little VAX. A couple of weeks ago I picked up an SZ12 drive enclosure with a pair of RZ56 drives in it for $22 incl. shipping. I just powered it up, tried booting the vaxstation off the first disk, and I'm looking at the login prompt on a v5.2 VAX/VMS system. OK, now I'm looking at the command prompt. The SYSTEM password was "system". TeeHee. The guy I bought this from says he has its twin. I'm mailing a money order tomorrow. Happy Solstice, Doc From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu Dec 20 23:21:32 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220231930.00a95c10@127.0.0.1> My wife and I just picked up a VAX 4000-500 for my Christmas gift. The reply from the guy loading the car when he found out it was for Christmas: "Whatever makes you happy, man" : ) So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer related... of course..... - Matt Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Dec 20 23:44:31 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220231930.00a95c10@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Well... We plan to drive it with a laptop but My wife and I finally sprung for a telescope this year. About a year ago we moved out of the city and got some fairly dark sky... Put it off as long as we could but finally bought a telescope we could control with a computer.... Now to find the right ccd imager..... Back to your regularly scheduled topic.... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > > My wife and I just picked up a VAX 4000-500 for my Christmas gift. > > The reply from the guy loading the car when he found out it was for Christmas: > > "Whatever makes you happy, man" > > : ) > > > So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer related... of > course..... > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com > (281) 296-6066 > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... > > From fernande at internet1.net Fri Dec 21 00:10:16 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220231930.00a95c10@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3C22D248.31B13DE0@internet1.net> I've been trying to get a Vax 4000-500 for awhile. Every time I see one on Ebay they are either too far away or too expensive. I probably won't get anything computer related for Christmas, unless I buy it myself. I do have some time off of work.... about two weeks.... and I plan to get a few machines cleaned up and possibly working. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Matthew Sell wrote: > > My wife and I just picked up a VAX 4000-500 for my Christmas gift. > > The reply from the guy loading the car when he found out it was for Christmas: > > "Whatever makes you happy, man" > > : ) > > So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer related... of > course..... > > - Matt From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 01:30:01 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220231930.00a95c10@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer related... of > course..... Mine just delivered today. A VS4000-60 with 40M and 2 disks, size & content yet to be determined. I'm trying to make room on the bench right now. Doc From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 20 21:34:48 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Selling ESDI drives (was Re: Speaking of PS/2s...) Message-ID: <20011221034717.CARG19910.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Russ, if "tons" >= 100 try the purchasing dept. at hitechcafe.com. They sell a lot of older drives including ESDI, and would probably be interested in the lot. Glen 0/0 > From: Russ Blakeman > The 70 came out ONLY with ESDI, the Reply upgrade and other aftermarket > controllers would give IDE, but not the factory. I have tons of various ESDI > drives I need to sell off too, all 3.5" from 20mb to (maybe) 120mb. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 21 00:23:49 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: FS: Floppy drive cable for Ampro Series 100 In-Reply-To: <20011221034717.CARG19910.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: I have available for sale a floppy cable for an Ampro Series 100, which was recently discussed to death. The cable comes with some things attached: Ampro Series 100 computer MOdel 122 Serial # 1202 Case 2 Canon MDD211 drives System appears to be complete and functional, but I have not tried it. It does NOT have a SCSI card - there is a place for connector for that with a block-off. The computer is free to whoever buys the cable. The floppy cable (the object of much discussion) is 14" long. At one end is a MALE dual row header (34 pin) that protrudes through a cutout in the back of the case. 6.5" (approx) from that connector is a FEMALE card edge connector that plugs onto the circuit board. 5.5" from that is another FEMALE card edge on one of the drives. 2" from that is another FEMALE card edge on the other drive. IS THAT enough information? It is currently at my office at Merritt College (Oakland CA hills). If anyone wants it, I will be there tomorrow briefly at 3:00. After that, you would have to wait until January, or pay me to make a separate trip there. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 20 23:40:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? References: <006d01c188e7$ee194160$2aed9a8d@ajp166> <006901c18934$b881bee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C215891.C04136F5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002601c189e1$fb62fd20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:18 PM Subject: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip? > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > If you run a 20 MHz Z80 against a 20 MHz 6502, you'll find the 6502 performs WAY > > memory at an average of 200 ns per cycle, while the 6502 does it a 100 ns rate. > > What happens if you look at the M1 cycle as 2 Z80 memory cycles (2 wait > states). It's not two memory cycles, is it? How are you interpreting that? There are TWO problems with it, where fairness to the Z80 is concerned. (1) the M1 is a very short cycle that occurs somewhat infrequently, and (2) it carries with it as baggage, the refresh cycle which tme is required to decode the opcode once it's fetched. This makes the process longer than the normal memory reference cycle. If you want a realistic comparison between the to CPU's you have to decide whether you want to incorporate the benefit of the refresh cycle into the mix, since it is irrelevant with SRAMs. If, however, you want to incorporate that refresh cycle as a benefit with some cost, rather than just a cost, then you have to make decisions as though you were using DRAMs. DRAMs have a cycle time and an access time. Back in the days of the Z80 and 6502, the shortest cycle times were on the order of 375 ns. That means that you'd have to have a way to stretch (ostensibly with wait-states) the M1 to a >375 ns length and subsequently stretch the REFRESH cycle to that length as well, prior to executing the next memory reference cycle. There are numerous imaginative ways to do that, however, and they should be taken into account. Likewise, the same upper limit on CPU cycle length should be imposed if you're going to compare with the 6502. A 375 ns cycle length for the 6502 simply means 2.66 MHz clock rate. If you insert two waits for the Z80's M1, and stretch the clock to force a >375 NS cycle for refresh, and then pick a clock that will also hit that mark with a standard unmodified memory reference cycle, you'll be running the Z80 at ~6 MHz > Now memory speed is the same for both but the clock rateis not. This is quite incomplete, in terms of levelling the playing field, but it is a step in that direction. Dick > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Dec 20 17:56:26 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <37.1fffd5aa.2953d4aa@aol.com> In a message dated 12/20/01 7:21:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, wpointon@earthlink.net writes: << unfortunately i dont have a site and i am limited to slow rural dial up net access -- any help would be appreciated if some one has the space and time to leave it up for a while --- thanks -billp >> I've got 140 megs worth of free space on my domain. would that be enough? From wpointon at earthlink.net Thu Dec 20 19:55:42 2001 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (bill pointon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <37.1fffd5aa.2953d4aa@aol.com> Message-ID: that would definitely be moving in the right direction -- billp On Thursday, December 20, 2001, at 06:56 PM, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/20/01 7:21:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, > wpointon@earthlink.net writes: > > << unfortunately i dont have a site and i am limited to slow rural dial > up > net access -- any help would be appreciated if some one has the space > and time to leave it up for a while --- thanks -billp >> > > > I've got 140 megs worth of free space on my domain. would that be > enough? > From blacklord at telstra.com Thu Dec 20 18:35:30 2001 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Smoking around computers Message-ID: <6ec3972106.721066ec39@bigpond.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo Date: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 0:24 am Subject: Re: Smoking around computers > One of the worst odors I've experienced was created when lots of > cat hair were toasted inside the power supply of a friend's > computer. The hairs finally got the fan stuck and temperature > went up very quickly. Argghhh.. I said to myself, "that's > no magic smoke!" . I had a cockroach crawl into my then 3 day old Amiga 1000 & fry itself on a circuit board in the power supply - stunk to high hell - but at least the machine was self-debugging Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Dec 20 20:39:05 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Found today ISD EPROM? Message-ID: <016301c189c8$e5442f00$2f701fd1@default> Today I stopped at a thrift and found a Blue/White metal device made by ISD and can't really figure it out. It has a place burn a chip and the one in it is ISD 1016 AP; a four inch speaker at the top and on the front side panel it has hook ups for a headset, in and audio, power supply. and RJ11 jack. On the circuit board I found this writing "ES001D Evaluction Unit 1995". There is no writing on the metal case or decals what so ever. Any one seen this unit before. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu Dec 20 20:48:00 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: 8284a, where to find? Message-ID: <01f301c189c9$e8506820$74469280@Y5F3Q8> I don't think I'm going to be able to repair the clock generator from my IBM PC (twisted off gnd & rst in a fit of stupidity), but I don't know where to look for another one-- mouser and digikey are all that comes to mind. (Is this an 8284a, or an 8284?) Also, the wife's going to work tomorrow, I'll run the boards thru the dishwasher and tell ya what happens! ja ne Bob From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu Dec 20 23:50:16 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: 8284a, where to find? In-Reply-To: <01f301c189c9$e8506820$74469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220234844.00aafcf8@127.0.0.1> That's the spirit! Give those boards hell, Bob! : ) After all of the talk about dishwashing - it's good to see someone giving it a shot. - Matt >Also, the wife's going to work tomorrow, I'll run the boards thru the >dishwasher and tell ya what happens! > >ja ne > >Bob Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 20 13:36:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: M8650 async board problem In-Reply-To: <10112200101.ZM27258@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 20, 1 01:01:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3837 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011220/8f25de41/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 20 13:39:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: from "Louis Schulman" at Dec 19, 1 10:17:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1173 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011220/e2b12c88/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Thu Dec 20 19:06:44 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:39:31 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: #> before tinning, so the tinning lost its grip. # # #Do you mean the 'tinning' -- as in the solder layer? Or the (normally #green) solder mask? If it's the latter, then don't worry about it. I mean the tin/lead solder coating. There is no green mask on this board, it is bare. # #> #> My questions is this: Is the copper itself sufficient to carry the currents, or is the tinning required to reduce # #Oh, I think the copper will easily carry the current... # #What worries me is that if this tinning is flaking off, are the soldered #joints between components and the tracks still good. Or are they going #open-circuit. If I had a board like this, I'd want to resolder everything... Well, I have this concern as well. My theory, since I don't want to resolder everything, is that when the components were soldered, this reflowed the tinning on the track, making a better bond. The board works, so there are evidently no open circuits. The copper where the tinning peeled off has a tarnished color. # #> Or, putting it one last way, do I need to re-tin the bare spots? # #And yes, I'd re-tin any tracks with missing tinning. # Louis From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Dec 20 14:25:15 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c18959$59e72620$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <20011221012046.TJUP10118.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Louis Schulman" > To: "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:59:28 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: Tinning on old PCBs > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Yes, this is the actual lead/tin that is peeling off. There is no coating on this PCB, just the bare tinned traces > on a bare board. I will admit, this is quite unusual, since the solder must have flowed out to tin the traces in > the first place, yet it did not bond properly. I seen this once on Seagate HD ST1201A. Many SMD simply popped off easily leaving bare copper where solder "bonded" to it. Phyically when intact, looked good but that layer between copper and solder is bad even everything looked "wetted" properly. Ditto to many component leads (also on thru hole) even it was "soldered" properly at factory. Everybody else here's the Qs: What is this failure called? What causes this failure? Cheers, Wizard > > Louis From louiss at gate.net Thu Dec 20 18:55:48 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:56:31 -0500 (EST), John Lawson wrote: # Just a quick (dumb) question: is this 'tinning' silver? Or Green? In #other words, has the solder itself actually flaked off the trace (meaning #it never bonded in the first place) or has the 'paint' coating called the #solder mask, which is usually green, come off, revealing the trace beneath #it? This very common, and Ethan is right, it should be carefully re-tinned #to avoid long-term corrosion. # It is the actual solder, indicating it did not bond properly in the first place. There is no green coating on this PCB, the board and the tinned traces have no coating over them at all. Louis From louiss at gate.net Thu Dec 20 18:59:28 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: <000c01c18959$59e72620$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: Yes, this is the actual lead/tin that is peeling off. There is no coating on this PCB, just the bare tinned traces on a bare board. I will admit, this is quite unusual, since the solder must have flowed out to tin the traces in the first place, yet it did not bond properly. Louis On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:22:17 -0500, Allison wrote: #Are you sure it was the solder plating and not the resist(solder) #mask(a plastic like over coating material)? If it was the tinning, #that's there to improve solderability and appearance as well. # #The tinning adds very little to the current carrying capability as #tin and lead have significantly more resistance than copper. # #Allison # #-----Original Message----- #From: Louis Schulman #To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org #Date: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 10:34 PM #Subject: Tinning on old PCBs # # #>I was cleaning a 20+ year old printed circuit board today, in the manner #recently discussed here at length #>(but by hand, I don't have a dishwasher). I was somewhat alarmed when some #of the tinning flaked off the #>copper tracks in places. The tracks themselves are fine, but evidently #they had not been properly prepared #>before tinning, so the tinning lost its grip. #> #>My questions is this: Is the copper itself sufficient to carry the #currents, or is the tinning required to reduce #>resistance? Or, putting it another way, is the tinning required, or is it #just to assist in attaching components? #>Or, putting it one last way, do I need to re-tin the bare spots? #> #>For what it's worth, this took place on the motherboard of my newly #acquired Exidy Sorcerer #2, a Mark I #>32K unit. This one came with a fair number of manuals and software (on #tape, of course). #> #>Thanks, #> #>Louis #> #> # From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 20 14:25:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Kraft vs. IBM joystick innards comparison In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Dec 19, 1 10:50:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2108 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011220/59f9fa6f/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 21 02:17:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Kraft vs. IBM joystick innards comparison In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > The Kraft stick has pots labelled 365Z145K and the IBM are > > 365Z100K. There are also some capacitors (markings say 684Z) in > > I wonder if the 'IBM' pots are 100K and the 'Kraft' ones 145K. The latter > seems like a rather odd value... Yes, those are the correct values as read from the pot. The IBM is 100K and the Kraft is 145K. > > The Kraft joystick works on my Apple //e. > > Now that is supprising in a way. The Apple ][ joystick interface is > also electrically much the same as the PC one (it's based on a 558 > quad timer chip, with the joystick pots as the timing resistors). I > would have thought the same joysticks (electrically) could be used on > both machines. Oh well. It's the CoCo that's the 'odd one out'.... I'll have to dig out my Tandy badged one and look into that now :) > And I hope your comment about me doesn't mean you once thought I was > sane... Because AFAIK I've never been sane. Thankfully. No, I pretty much figured you to be not sane from a very early age ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 20 14:41:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Heath h-8 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFF4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 20, 1 10:15:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011220/d1daee1e/attachment.ksh From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 20 16:51:19 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Heath h-8 Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E009@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > > So, how rare are the peripherals? In the absence of a > heath floppy drive, > > what else might I use(and how...)? Anyone know where I can get one? > The H17 should be able to use any normal 5.25" floppy drive. > The Heathkit > ones were (IIRC) 40 cylinder single sided. I would suspect > you could link > up a PC 360K drive and get it to work. You might have to cut the > connection to the side select pin (which will then be pulled > high by the > termiating resistors in the drive) so that it behaves as a > single-sided > unit. And there may be some issue with the drive select pins. But it > should be possible to get it to work. So hard sectors aren't required, then? I don't have a cable for it yet, so I'll just have to plan on cutting a wire. :) > If you have such a drive and a PSU to run it off, I'll dig > out the H17 > schematic (it's used in my Z90...) and see what needs to be fiddled. I do have extra floppy drives, which I'd be willing to toy with for it. Power supply wouldn't be a problem. > > Another interesting question is this: My H-8 has a strange > wire-wrapped > > breadboard, on top of what appears to be a normal 8080 CPU > Sounds like a homebrew Z80 modification board. Useful, but > I'd probably > go back to the 8080 if it was my machine.... Yep, my guess is that it's definitely a homebrew z80 modification. :) I might consider switching to 8080 again, but I do like the z80, and the home-made daughtercard is amusing, so I probably won't remove it permanently until I decide how it actually works. > > toying around? (Did CP/M ever run on these?) > > Isn't there some issue about the H8 having ROM at location 0 > (standard > CP/M needs RAM there)? I seem to remember there were special I believe you're right that the H8 has ROM there. It may be possible to change that with jumpers or switches. My systems has something which could be an "extended configuration" board, which is mentioned on one of the previous web-pages as allowing you to run CP/M. I'm not sure what it does to allow it, though. > CP/M will run on an 8080 BTW. But a fair number of 'normal' > CP/M programs > need a Z80. I see -- didn't know that. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 20 17:03:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: Heath h-8 In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E009@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 20, 1 04:51:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1932 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011220/7ae67679/attachment.ksh From pechter at ureach.com Thu Dec 20 14:42:07 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <200112202042.PAA25301@stage20.ureach.com> ---- On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman (dittman@dittman.net) wrote: > Today I found the following: > > 1) IBM PS/2 P70 Portable with Xenix386 loaded. Does anyone know > how to bypass the root password so I can log in? > > 2) A DEC BC56H SCSI cable. I have enough, but since this is a > little hard to find, I bought it to pass on to anyone on the list > that needs it. > > 3) An Apple board with part number 077-0219-A. This has two > 9-pin connectors, one labeled "TO MOUSE UNIT" and the other > labeled "TO MOUSE CONN.". There's a 25-pin connector labeled > "TO SCSI CONN.". The date on the board is 1985. Since the > board only cost $1, I figured I'd better grab it before it > was tossed. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ One thing that may work is build a Linux box with the support for the Xenix/SysV file system and try to mount the drive from there and edit out the password in the password file. I've done that before with other Unix systems... Bill -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) From dittman at dittman.net Thu Dec 20 15:00:14 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <200112202042.PAA25301@stage20.ureach.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Dec 20, 2001 03:42:07 PM Message-ID: <200112202100.fBKL0EJ03260@narnia.int.dittman.net> > One thing that may work is build a Linux box > with the support for the Xenix/SysV file > system and try to mount the drive from there > and edit out the password in the password > file. > > I've done that before with other Unix > systems... I'd do that if this wasn't a PS/2 with the funky drive connections. I don't have another PS/2. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 20 15:27:12 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: <200112202100.fBKL0EJ03260@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > One thing that may work is build a Linux box > > with the support for the Xenix/SysV file > > system and try to mount the drive from there > > and edit out the password in the password > > file. > > > > I've done that before with other Unix > > systems... > > I'd do that if this wasn't a PS/2 with the funky drive > connections. I don't have another PS/2. You could make a pair of Linux slackware boot/root floppies with the necessary FS support in a custom kernel on the bootdisk, and mount the drive, and do the necessary file editing in this manner. Peace... Sridhar From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Dec 20 14:57:17 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:28 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <003f01c1895d$f7d0baa0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> <000f01c18975$41f8fc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <00cd01c18998$e936c6c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> The fact that the 6502 was a kinda striped-down version of the M6800, and was more efficient from a computing power perspective, has convinced some people that the 6502 was the first (and only 8-bit) RISC-processor. If the MOS people had given the chip more on board general purpose registers (i.e. like zero-page memory on-chip) and if they had truely done away with some more Motorola-like CISC instructions, it would really have pulled it off as a true RISC-design. Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:42 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things you've got > to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately deletes the Z180, > and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. There are > derivatives of the 6502 still in production, but they are few. There are > derivative of the Z80 being produced as well. None of the former are 6502's, > and none of the latter are Z80's. > > Your're right, in that they use their time differently. Because of the vast > architectural differences, one has to be cautious about chosing a comparison. > The first basis, before chosing a set of instructions for a comparision, > however, is selection of an appropriate timebase. The Z80 uses its clock > differently than the 6502 does. The Z80 never uses fewer than 2 clock ticks for > a complete memory cycle, ant 2 ticks is only the lenght of the M1 cycle. That's > followed by the refresh cycle, during which, if I understand the process > correctly, the Z80 decodes that opcode. "Normal" memory cycles are three > clock-ticks in length, though only thwo of them are actually used during the > actual access of memory. The memory access portion of the M1 cycle is > essentially a > > The 6502 uses one clock tick for each CPU cycle. External hardware determines > how long the memory access is, though the period beginning with valid addresses > and read/write begins just under half-way into phase-1 and continues throughout > phase-2, each of which is actually more-or-less half a clock cycle long. If you > don't attempt to do transparent memory sharing along the phase-1/phase-2 > boundary, a memory cycle can be as long as 1-1/2 clock ticks. > > All of these constraints are based on the addition of no wait-states. The Z80 > has excellent support for wait-state insertion during any cycle other than the > refresh cycle. The early NMOS 6502 supports wait state insertion on read cycles > only. There are ways of getting around this, but the Z80 certainly makes it > easier than does the 6502. CMOS 6502's support wait states on both read and > write cycles. > > If you run each of the two at a rate that allows each to use its shortest memory > cycle as the basic access window to memory, the 6502 will probably outperform > the Z80 in a task that operates on 8-bit data in an 8-bit way. The more 16 or > 32-bit things you do, the more it favors the Z80, due to its inherent features > such as the 16-bit registers and operatons on them without intervening > instruction fetches. > > If you compare the rate at which they operate, however, the 6502 has features > that enable it to do 16-bit things quite handily in memory. Since one can view > the 6502's page-zero as an extended register set, with instructions dedicated > for it. Those instructions include indirection into main memory, which make > 16-bit operations remarkably fast for a CPU that has no 16-bit registers. > > Have a look at it and contemplate that. It's a VERY clever design, intended to > make for a small, hence, cheap, CPU chip. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Allison" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:55 AM > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > Z80 uses it's time differently... Then again how many instuctions > > would it take to do a 16bit add (result in register or convenient place). > > > > The fact that both are still viable suggests they have adaquate > > speed and a rich enough instruction set to do many tasks. > > > > Last item, z80, Z180 and Z280 do not have the same timing. > > For example the Z280 can be run at a bus speed slower than > > the CPU speed and with the MMU and cache running in burst > > mode you get a very different bus utilization model. > > > > Generally the only things that count is: > > > > Can the cpu do the task? > > What cpu are you familiar with? > > What is the total cost to implement the task (firmware/software counts)? > > Politcial impacts (company prefers, owns, has, used before). > > > > Do I think z80 is better than 6502? Yes, I'm biased. Is 6502 a good cpu? > > I think so, it certainly beat the 6800 and a lot of others in the 8bit > > space. > > Would I design with it? No, lack of experience, no on hand software base > > for it, limited tools to work with it. Would I consider it, likely. > > > > I have 6502, 6800, 1802, SC/MP, SC/MPII, ti9900, 8048/9/874x, 8080, > > 8085, z80, Z180 Z280, 6809 and T-11 to pick from. For a new design > > (personal) of some size say to run an OS then Z280 or T-11 for single chip > > I have 8748, 8749 and 8751s around. For simple controllers 8085 is easy > > to use if it grows out of the 8749. Then again I also have upd78pg11s too. > > > Why do you see the 8085 as growing out of the 8049? The 8085 was quite mature > when the 8049 came out, so they'r probably not from a common heritage, and the > instruction sets are so totally different that one might believe they're even > from a different manufacturer. The one that Intel claimed grew out of the > 8048/49 was the 8051. > > Of all these old-timers, that's the only one that still has life, and it has > LIFE in a big way! There are many variants, with the same common instruction > set, but many different hardware features. The Dallas 89C420 runs at, 50 MIPS, > which certainly breathes life into the line. There are bit-banging things that > you can do with that one that few of the others above could handle in less than > 10x the time, yet the architecture supports a full 64K of data space and a full > 64K of code space, with memory mapped I/O in the data space. > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 21 00:22:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <003f01c1895d$f7d0baa0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> <000f01c18975$41f8fc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <00cd01c18998$e936c6c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <00b101c189e7$dd0c3520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not at all sure one could fairly say the 6502 was a "stripped down M6800. It has 56 documented instructions, not to mention the undocumented ones, so it's probably not a RISC. The CMOS version has many more instructions, and it has more addressing modes than the MOT processor. It does store low-byte-first, though, so, in that respect, it's different from the MOT parts. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > The fact that the 6502 was a kinda striped-down version of > the M6800, and was more efficient from a computing power > perspective, has convinced some people that the 6502 was > the first (and only 8-bit) RISC-processor. > > If the MOS people had given the chip more on board general > purpose registers (i.e. like zero-page memory on-chip) and if they > had truely done away with some more Motorola-like CISC > instructions, it would really have pulled it off as a true RISC-design. > > Sipke de Wal > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:42 PM > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things you've > got > > to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately deletes the > Z180, > > and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. There are > > derivatives of the 6502 still in production, but they are few. There are > > derivative of the Z80 being produced as well. None of the former are 6502's, > > and none of the latter are Z80's. > > > > Your're right, in that they use their time differently. Because of the vast > > architectural differences, one has to be cautious about chosing a comparison. > > The first basis, before chosing a set of instructions for a comparision, > > however, is selection of an appropriate timebase. The Z80 uses its clock > > differently than the 6502 does. The Z80 never uses fewer than 2 clock ticks > for > > a complete memory cycle, ant 2 ticks is only the lenght of the M1 cycle. > That's > > followed by the refresh cycle, during which, if I understand the process > > correctly, the Z80 decodes that opcode. "Normal" memory cycles are three > > clock-ticks in length, though only thwo of them are actually used during the > > actual access of memory. The memory access portion of the M1 cycle is > > essentially a > > > > The 6502 uses one clock tick for each CPU cycle. External hardware determines > > how long the memory access is, though the period beginning with valid > addresses > > and read/write begins just under half-way into phase-1 and continues > throughout > > phase-2, each of which is actually more-or-less half a clock cycle long. If > you > > don't attempt to do transparent memory sharing along the phase-1/phase-2 > > boundary, a memory cycle can be as long as 1-1/2 clock ticks. > > > > All of these constraints are based on the addition of no wait-states. The Z80 > > has excellent support for wait-state insertion during any cycle other than the > > refresh cycle. The early NMOS 6502 supports wait state insertion on read > cycles > > only. There are ways of getting around this, but the Z80 certainly makes it > > easier than does the 6502. CMOS 6502's support wait states on both read and > > write cycles. > > > > If you run each of the two at a rate that allows each to use its shortest > memory > > cycle as the basic access window to memory, the 6502 will probably outperform > > the Z80 in a task that operates on 8-bit data in an 8-bit way. The more 16 or > > 32-bit things you do, the more it favors the Z80, due to its inherent features > > such as the 16-bit registers and operatons on them without intervening > > instruction fetches. > > > > If you compare the rate at which they operate, however, the 6502 has features > > that enable it to do 16-bit things quite handily in memory. Since one can > view > > the 6502's page-zero as an extended register set, with instructions dedicated > > for it. Those instructions include indirection into main memory, which make > > 16-bit operations remarkably fast for a CPU that has no 16-bit registers. > > > > Have a look at it and contemplate that. It's a VERY clever design, intended > to > > make for a small, hence, cheap, CPU chip. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Allison" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:55 AM > > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > > > > Z80 uses it's time differently... Then again how many instuctions > > > would it take to do a 16bit add (result in register or convenient place). > > > > > > The fact that both are still viable suggests they have adaquate > > > speed and a rich enough instruction set to do many tasks. > > > > > > Last item, z80, Z180 and Z280 do not have the same timing. > > > For example the Z280 can be run at a bus speed slower than > > > the CPU speed and with the MMU and cache running in burst > > > mode you get a very different bus utilization model. > > > > > > Generally the only things that count is: > > > > > > Can the cpu do the task? > > > What cpu are you familiar with? > > > What is the total cost to implement the task (firmware/software counts)? > > > Politcial impacts (company prefers, owns, has, used before). > > > > > > Do I think z80 is better than 6502? Yes, I'm biased. Is 6502 a good cpu? > > > I think so, it certainly beat the 6800 and a lot of others in the 8bit > > > space. > > > Would I design with it? No, lack of experience, no on hand software base > > > for it, limited tools to work with it. Would I consider it, likely. > > > > > > I have 6502, 6800, 1802, SC/MP, SC/MPII, ti9900, 8048/9/874x, 8080, > > > 8085, z80, Z180 Z280, 6809 and T-11 to pick from. For a new design > > > (personal) of some size say to run an OS then Z280 or T-11 for single chip > > > I have 8748, 8749 and 8751s around. For simple controllers 8085 is easy > > > to use if it grows out of the 8749. Then again I also have upd78pg11s too. > > > > > Why do you see the 8085 as growing out of the 8049? The 8085 was quite mature > > when the 8049 came out, so they'r probably not from a common heritage, and the > > instruction sets are so totally different that one might believe they're even > > from a different manufacturer. The one that Intel claimed grew out of the > > 8048/49 was the 8051. > > > > Of all these old-timers, that's the only one that still has life, and it has > > LIFE in a big way! There are many variants, with the same common instruction > > set, but many different hardware features. The Dallas 89C420 runs at, 50 MIPS, > > which certainly breathes life into the line. There are bit-banging things > that > > you can do with that one that few of the others above could handle in less > than > > 10x the time, yet the architecture supports a full 64K of data space and a > full > > 64K of code space, with memory mapped I/O in the data space. > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Dec 20 15:21:11 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <200112201831.NAA22102@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <00dd01c1899c$3f9de360$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Again clockfrequencies and cycletimings are not a good way to establish computingpower. You should look at the performance of both processors at their maximum memory-throughput or bus-bandwidth with the memory-technology of those days. Although I like the Z80 and worked with it a lot, I still think that the 6502 was more powerfull from an userapplication perspective, all other things being equal of course .......... Anyway, both CPU's served their purpose and their downfall was probably more related to their limited 16-bit performance and the limit of the amount of directly accessable memory than their respective 8-bit performance. After all, if they would have evolved with the advance in technology they could both have achieved more glorious days. Remember that the M68000 family was designwise far superior to the 8086/8088. But unfortunatly, we all know that (more often than not) design-qualilty has no real relation to the succes of a CPU-family........... Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Pope To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 7:31 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > Also, if you realy want 'ultimate speed' you have to look at actual Versions. > > close Z80 relatives (like 180) are available up to 32 MHz (I have seen only > > 20s, but well) while actual versions of the classic 6502 and 65816 is able > > to do 14 MHz. Now take in account that a clock ratio of 1:3 to 1:4 for 6502 > > The 65816 can go up to 20Mhz. It is used in the SuperCPU for the 64 and > 128. > > > vs. Z80 (*) is a good rule of thump, so a 14 MHz 6502 equals a 42 to 56 MHz > > Z80. Quite a racer ... > > Cheers, > > Bryan Pope From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 21 00:28:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <200112201831.NAA22102@wordstock.com> <00dd01c1899c$3f9de360$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <00bb01c189e8$c3eb99e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The point I was trying to establish was that it's difficult to develop a basis for comparison that treats both processors fairly. The Z80 has cycles of different lengths that make it difficult to find a basis for comparing the two based on similar memory bandwidth, while the 6502 tends to be used with half its bus-time idle. That's not efficient use of the most costly element in the system (based on 1980 parameters). If you compare oscillator frequency, the 6502 has a great advantage, and if you base the comparison on no-wait-state memory bandwidth requirements, it has an unfair advantage again. My contention, of course, is that even if you do level the playing field, the Z80 is still slower overall, but especially at 8-bit microcontroller things, than the 6502. What remains to be seen is whether the Z80 can muster any sort of win over the 6502 in terms of code that takes advantage of its rich internal register resources. One can't proceed with that, however, until a fair basis for comparison is established. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > Again clockfrequencies and cycletimings are not a good way to > establish computingpower. You should look at the performance of > both processors at their maximum memory-throughput or bus-bandwidth > with the memory-technology of those days. > > Although I like the Z80 and worked with it a lot, I still think that the > 6502 was more powerfull from an userapplication perspective, all > other things being equal of course .......... > > Anyway, both CPU's served their purpose and their downfall was > probably more related to their limited 16-bit performance and the > limit of the amount of directly accessable memory than their > respective 8-bit performance. After all, if they would have evolved > with the advance in technology they could both have achieved > more glorious days. > > Remember that the M68000 family was designwise far superior > to the 8086/8088. But unfortunatly, we all know that (more often than not) > design-qualilty has no real relation to the succes of a CPU-family........... > > Sipke de Wal > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bryan Pope > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > > > > > Also, if you realy want 'ultimate speed' you have to look at actual > Versions. > > > close Z80 relatives (like 180) are available up to 32 MHz (I have seen only > > > 20s, but well) while actual versions of the classic 6502 and 65816 is able > > > to do 14 MHz. Now take in account that a clock ratio of 1:3 to 1:4 for 6502 > > > > The 65816 can go up to 20Mhz. It is used in the SuperCPU for the 64 and > > 128. > > > > > vs. Z80 (*) is a good rule of thump, so a 14 MHz 6502 equals a 42 to 56 MHz > > > Z80. Quite a racer ... > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan Pope > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 21 00:19:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <3C223784.22670.97391BE9@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 20, 01 07:09:56 pm <3C223F9A.9775.9758B41B@localhost> Message-ID: <009f01c189e7$62619ea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are lots of claims out there that the 14 MHz part actually runs quite safely and reliably at 20. Unfortunately, they won't tell me what they charge for their full-speed chip, so I won't order 'em. There are HDL's out there for 6502 core at considerable speeds well in excess of 20 MHz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > Also, if you realy want 'ultimate speed' you have to look at actual Versions. > > > close Z80 relatives (like 180) are available up to 32 MHz (I have seen only > > > 20s, but well) while actual versions of the classic 6502 and 65816 is able > > > to do 14 MHz. Now take in account that a clock ratio of 1:3 to 1:4 for 6502 > > > The 65816 can go up to 20Mhz. It is used in the SuperCPU for the 64 and > > 128. > > I heared about that - just the Super CPU also uses WDC65C816S which are only > specified up to 14 MHz ... I truly belive they are even above 20 MHz reliable, > just not specified ! > > Ciao > Hans > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From jss at subatomix.com Thu Dec 20 15:05:17 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011220150132.C94962-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Sellam quoted on cnn.com: > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/20/geek.gifts.idg/index.html > > And not badly mangled either! Whoa! The PDP-8 was mentioned. That's pretty good for mainstream journalism. I wonder if the author knew that it came *before* the Altair. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 21 02:11:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... In-Reply-To: <20011220150132.C94962-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Sellam quoted on cnn.com: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/20/geek.gifts.idg/index.html > > > > And not badly mangled either! > > Whoa! The PDP-8 was mentioned. That's pretty good for mainstream > journalism. I wonder if the author knew that it came *before* the Altair. Well, he only mentioned it because I told him that was among one of the more desired collectable computers :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From hansp at aconit.org Thu Dec 20 15:30:45 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... References: Message-ID: <3C225885.7060008@aconit.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Sellam quoted on cnn.com: > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/20/geek.gifts.idg/index.html > > And not badly mangled either! Which reminds me that Sellam is also mentioned in New Scientist (a british publication) dated 15 Dec. The article is a review of Christine Finn's book mentioned on the list previously. From the review: There are many privately held collections. Still in his twenties, Sellam Ismail is nostalgic for the machines of his childhood and obsesivly collects them. He owns a vinatge computer warehouse containing everything form Altairs to Sinclair ZX80's. He also hunts out software, and is often called upon to recover "lost" data form old machines. Finding the right operating system is already like stumbling upon the Rosetta Stone. - end citation I might quibble a littel with the wording..... -- hbp From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 00:35:39 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... References: <3C225885.7060008@aconit.org> Message-ID: <00ab01c189e9$b50b81a0$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> > There are many privately held collections. Still in his twenties, Sellam > Ismail is nostalgic for the machines of his childhood and obsesivly > collects them. He owns a vinatge computer warehouse containing > everything form Altairs to Sinclair ZX80's. He also hunts out software, > and is often called upon to recover "lost" data form old machines. > Finding the right operating system is already like stumbling upon the > Rosetta Stone. > > - end citation > > I might quibble a littel with the wording..... > > > -- hbp Still in his twenties? From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 21 02:25:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... In-Reply-To: <00ab01c189e9$b50b81a0$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > There are many privately held collections. Still in his twenties, > > Still in his twenties? Up until earlier this year at least ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 21 02:18:41 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... In-Reply-To: <3C225885.7060008@aconit.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > Which reminds me that Sellam is also mentioned in New Scientist (a > british publication) dated 15 Dec. The article is a review of > Christine Finn's book mentioned on the list previously. > > From the review: > > There are many privately held collections. Still in his twenties, Sellam > Ismail is nostalgic for the machines of his childhood and obsesivly > collects them. He owns a vinatge computer warehouse containing > everything form Altairs to Sinclair ZX80's. He also hunts out software, > and is often called upon to recover "lost" data form old machines. > Finding the right operating system is already like stumbling upon the > Rosetta Stone. > > - end citation Hey, cool! Any chance of getting a copy sent to me for my vanity file? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 20 15:09:57 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" References: Message-ID: <3C2253A5.C6225D70@jetnet.ab.ca> CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > Interenting topic. How the hell do you build electronics that survives 15000G > ! > Got any technical info on RF proximity fuses ? I read somewhere that they > used the capacitance between shell nozecone and target to pull the osc off > frequency, a bit like a Theramin. > > BTW, the Germans developed a remotely controlled TV guided bomb during WW2. > Luckily for the allies the picture broke up as the bomb approached its target > and > development was stopped. Nope they were picking up early 'I love Lucy' shows by mistake. Anyhow I thought the V2 was the last ditch bomb of the war. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ubertechnoid at Home.com Thu Dec 20 15:44:13 2001 From: ubertechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" References: <3C2253A5.C6225D70@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000a01c1899f$77dd9420$3700a8c0@benchbox> Nope. This winged, rocket-propelled, and tv-guided bomb sank an Italian battleship late in the war. The British called it the 'Chase me Charlie' bomb. It was pretty effective when used by a trained crew. It was guided from the launching aircraft by an operator with a joystick. Regards, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:09 PM Subject: Re: URL for "The Wench Bench" > CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > > > Interenting topic. How the hell do you build electronics that survives 15000G > > ! > > Got any technical info on RF proximity fuses ? I read somewhere that they > > used the capacitance between shell nozecone and target to pull the osc off > > frequency, a bit like a Theramin. > > > > BTW, the Germans developed a remotely controlled TV guided bomb during WW2. > > Luckily for the allies the picture broke up as the bomb approached its target > > and > > development was stopped. > > Nope they were picking up early 'I love Lucy' shows by mistake. > Anyhow I thought the V2 was the last ditch bomb of the war. > > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 20 18:30:48 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" In-Reply-To: <3C2253A5.C6225D70@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > BTW, the Germans developed a remotely controlled TV guided bomb during WW2. > Luckily for the allies the picture broke up as the bomb approached its target > and > development was stopped. The TV-guided glidebombs of World War 2 were too far ahead of their time - lens technology just was not able keep up. As the bombs reached their target, there was no way to effectively zoom the image for finer guidance during the most critical part of the run. Things went out of focus, and the image turned into mush. So much for guidance. They never did work well, and only a few really hit their targets effectively (one being the example given). The German glide bomb sets were better than the US sets. The US sets (SCR-549 and SCR-550, ARE/ATE, AN/AXT-series) suffered from extereme microphonics (virbrations that direct effect the performance of tubes), and were quite useless in aircraft. If anyone needs original 1944 AN/AXT-2 Operators Manuals, please contact me off list. There were many interesting developements in World War 2, mostly from the Germans and the US, that really were bleeding edge (mostly secret). Some of it is quite legendary - the so called "Wizard War" of radar countermeasures, jet engines, the code breaking - but much of it really has not been researched much (either because so much of the original records are lost or recently declassified). Examples of the latter are heat-seeking missles (US and German), digital encryption (SIGSALY), passive search radar (Klein-Heidlburg), variously-controlled glide bombs, magnetic anomaly detection, and so on. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Dec 20 16:22:39 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" Message-ID: Jeff@ubertechnoid wrote > Nope. This winged, rocket-propelled, and tv-guided bomb sank an Italian > battleship late in the war. The British called it the 'Chase me Charlie' > bomb. It was pretty effective when used by a trained crew. It was guided > from the launching aircraft by an operator with a joystick. Thanks Jeff, it's a while since I read the Wireless World article on the "Chase me Charlie" bomb and I think your're right about the sinking of an Italian battleship. I know it's off topic, but it's quite a feat of engineering stuffing tubes (valves) into shells or bombs. I'm still curious as to how the RF proximity fuses worked. Missile guidance computers are probably a valid topic for discussion on classiccmp. Anybody read Jack Volders paper on the Cordic algorithm ? A true classic. BTW would a "classic algorithm" thread be a valid topic for classiccmp ? It would make a good read and it would be educational too. Chris From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu Dec 20 18:31:40 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" References: Message-ID: <015001c189b6$dd13cc80$74469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 05:22 PM Subject: Re: URL for "The Wench Bench" > Jeff@ubertechnoid wrote > > > Nope. This winged, rocket-propelled, and tv-guided bomb sank an Italian > > battleship late in the war. The British called it the 'Chase me Charlie' > > bomb. It was pretty effective when used by a trained crew. It was guided > > from the launching aircraft by an operator with a joystick. > > Thanks Jeff, it's a while since I read the Wireless World article on the > "Chase > me Charlie" bomb and I think your're right about the sinking of an Italian > battleship. > > I know it's off topic, but it's quite a feat of engineering stuffing tubes > (valves) into > shells or bombs. I'm still curious as to how the RF proximity fuses worked. > > Missile guidance computers are probably a valid topic for discussion on > classiccmp. > Anybody read Jack Volders paper on the Cordic algorithm ? A true classic. > > BTW would a "classic algorithm" thread be a valid topic for classiccmp ? > It would make a good read and it would be educational too. Don't see how it could be any more off topic than some of the threads we have right now... > > Chris Bob From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu Dec 20 23:23:10 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220232156.00aabc40@127.0.0.1> The Japanese developed a remote guided bomb as well, but apparently it was easily "jammed" by turning on en electric shaver. Just a story I read from an old '50's book on guided missles and rockets. - Matt At 03:04 PM 12/20/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Interenting topic. How the hell do you build electronics that survives 15000G >! >Got any technical info on RF proximity fuses ? I read somewhere that they >used the capacitance between shell nozecone and target to pull the osc off >frequency, a bit like a Theramin. > >BTW, the Germans developed a remotely controlled TV guided bomb during WW2. >Luckily for the allies the picture broke up as the bomb approached its target >and >development was stopped. > >Chris Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From dittman at dittman.net Thu Dec 20 15:26:53 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just say In-Reply-To: <20011220195702.64152.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 20, 2001 11:57:02 AM Message-ID: <200112202126.fBKLQr103427@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > At one place I worked we had a 9-track tape drive that would take full > > size reels, and used a simple hub instead of a takeup reel. I always > > expected to have the tape despool on the takeup hub, but it never did. > > I would have expected it, too, even after seeing a TS03 run. Even more so as the drive was mounted vertically. I'd not have been so worried if the drive was mounted horizontally. > > > > > > In fact, next week I'm picking up a table-top 9-track SCSI drive > > > > > > for $75. > > I can now read TK50, TK70, DLT (up to 20/40GB), DAT (up to 4/8GB), 8mm > > (2GB and 5GB), 3480, and 3490 at home (plus some of the QIC and Travan, > > but I forget which as they aren't connected). > > I think I'm limited to (from that list) TK50, DAT (DDS-1 and DDS-2), > 8mm (2Gb only) and some QIC (6250, IIRC). I can add to that DECtape > (TU56), DECtape-II (TU58) and DECcassette (TU60 - digital cassettes > like Sellam was describing here recently). > > > Next drive to find is the TU58. > > Trade a TU58 (dual mech from inside an 11/730) for a 9-track SCSI? No thanks. I just got this thing, and I actually need to read 9-track tapes. :-) -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From pechter at ureach.com Thu Dec 20 16:26:38 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing Message-ID: <200112202226.RAA02601@stage20.ureach.com> ---- On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer (rschaefe@gcfn.org) wrote: > > > > > I'd also include Geeks who program any machine that could > accidentally > > > kill someone > > > > That has been documented. I believe the machine in question was > called > > the Thorac and it irradiated two people to death. I'm too sleepy to > > search on Google right now or I'd provide more information. > > I watched this, too. Seems if they edited one blank, went down and > filled > in another, then went back up and changes the prevoius blank, it would > ignore the intensity settings and jsut go straight to glow-in-the-dark. > Hell of a way to buy it. > > > > > -- > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > Bob > > > > And it's a classic PDP11 driving the whole thing with RT11... I remember the lawsuit and DEC's saying we can't comment on it. The code for the application was less than operator fail safe... Hell, less than fail-resistant. Bill From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu Dec 20 18:30:28 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: <200112202226.RAA02601@stage20.ureach.com> Message-ID: <014a01c189b6$b167af20$74469280@Y5F3Q8> > And it's a classic PDP11 driving the whole > thing with RT11... I remember the lawsuit > and DEC's saying we can't comment on it. > > The code for the application was less than > operator fail safe... Hell, less than > fail-resistant. IIRC they had an interview with one of the guys, before he died. Strange. It didn't bother me much when I first saw it on TV, but now it does. :/ > > Bill Bob From pechter at ureach.com Thu Dec 20 16:52:19 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <200112202252.RAA04844@stage20.ureach.com> ---- On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Allison (ajp166@bellatlantic.net) wrote: > 8251 was an OK chip, it had bugs, FYI there are three versions > and each has it's oddities! I have tons of them and use them > but, you do have to be aware of the oddities. The worst ones > are initial programming after reset (buffer clear bug) and the > repeats last character on /cts false if TX shifter is not empty > (8251A). However the 2SIO didn't use it. > > > NS* did use them as did many others. The worst chip was > the 8250. > > Allison IIRC the Intel 8251 did full Sync as well as Async which was a plus. It's annoying drawback -- (DEC used it in the Robin and Rainbow) was the lack of modem flow control support. I'd have killed for an 8251 with CTS/RTS/DSR/DTR and DCD all on chip. Perhaps it should've been done on two chips if Intel couldn't get it on one. Bill From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 21 02:31:18 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Nile 150 In-Reply-To: <200112202103.fBKL3bP03283@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > This should fit in the bed of a typical pickup, but I don't > know if that's exactly the best way to ship this. I don't > know what the place wants for the system, but they've tried > to sell it for a while now without success, so my guess is > probably the value in scrap. What would you guess the scrap value of it is? > If anyone is serious about this system, I'll pass on the place's > phone number and email address. I'm quite interested in it, not sure if I can afford it. -Toth From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 19 13:39:53 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: More Power Series Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi again, I neglected to mention in my last power series post the odd video connectors on this thing: 1 analog video in/out breakout plug. (The same as the plug for the Galileo breakout, I believe) 2 "Digital video out" plugs. (They look like 25-pin or so parallel plugs, female) 7 BNCs. I assume 4 of them are the R, G, B, and S for the monitor. The others are labeled "Alpha," and are also red, green, and blue. What do I do with them? :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 21 02:46:53 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: New Finds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > One thing that may work is build a Linux box > > > with the support for the Xenix/SysV file > > > system and try to mount the drive from there > > > and edit out the password in the password > > > file. > > > > > > I've done that before with other Unix > > > systems... > > > > I'd do that if this wasn't a PS/2 with the funky drive > > connections. I don't have another PS/2. > > You could make a pair of Linux slackware boot/root floppies with the > necessary FS support in a custom kernel on the bootdisk, and mount the > drive, and do the necessary file editing in this manner. Might want to check out this bootdisk: http://www.toms.net/rb/ You would likely still have to compile a kernel with MCA and the other options you'll need, but it has a good set of utilities. -Toth From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 19 12:55:42 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Power Series Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Well, speak of the devil... and all that. After mentioning yesterday that a Power Series machine would be nice to have, I found that somebody brought one home for me. (seriously...) So before I get started here, let me also mention that it would be nice to have: A Symbolics Lisp Machine A Next Dimension Cube A PDP-11 in a small rack with blinkenlights and core ... enough of that, though. :) So, I now am the proud owner of a Power Series VGX machine. It seems to have 4 40Mhz CPUs in it, a full compliment of graphics boards, FDDI, and some extra video I/O boards. It's a deskside type machine, the whole thing fitting in one very large tower --err... coffee-table :) Firstly, this machine is in need of: The plastic "skirt" piece for the right side of the chassis. The plastic back plate. The power-cable. Keyboard, monitor, mouse (all of which I can probably get locally... (that's it.. I think I have the entire machine otherwise) Does anyone know where I can get these, or (in the case of the power-cord, for instance) parts to make them? Any warnings/information/antic dotes for these machines? I do intend to use the thing. I also intend to use it at home. It appears to require 20 Amp service, though, and I have no good 20 Amp outlet within reach. I do have some 20 Amp and a couple 30 Amp fuses (Yes, fuses. I intend to replace the one I hook this to with a mini-breaker) in the box, which I intend to trace before I decide where to plug it in. It may be that I'll contract somebody to run a 20 Amp outlet for this machine. (Never having done AC wiring work on my own, I feel that I don't want to start by wiring an outlet for this beast) Otherwise, the plan will be to plug it into a circuit with a highly rated fuse on it, and unplug everything else. Any holes in this plan? The breaker on the power-supply is rated 16 Amps, btw. I have no idea how much pull to expect from a monitor -- anyone know whether I can safely use both on the same circuit? That would simplify things. I believe a best option is to have somebody run a line up from the washer/dryer hookups in the basement. Those are hooked to 30-amp fuses already and have cutoff switches. As long as nobody does laundry while the machine's running, then, it would be fine. :) Lastly, even before I get this thing plugged in, I'd like to inventory it, and check it for health. What should I look for? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Dec 21 03:53:27 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662CB@exc-reo1> >Hey, cool! Any chance of getting a copy >sent to me for my vanity file? http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opbooks.jsp?id=ns232110 Antonio From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 21 04:52:39 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Power Series In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DFE8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > So, I now am the proud owner of a Power Series VGX machine. It seems to > have 4 40Mhz CPUs in it, a full compliment of graphics boards, FDDI, and > some extra video I/O boards. Nice...I have a number 4D series machines myself. I haven't yet found a source for IRIX 4.0.5 and 5.3 for them tho :/ > It's a deskside type machine, the whole thing fitting in one very large > tower --err... coffee-table :) You have what they call a "single tower" desk side machine. > Firstly, this machine is in need of: > > The plastic "skirt" piece for the right side of the chassis. I haven't yet found a source for these, as I'm in need of one myself. Keep me in mind if you find a pair of them someplace. > Keyboard, monitor, mouse (all of which I can probably get locally... You can boot these machines with a dumb terminal on the first serial port. The serial ports have a different pinout then just about any other computer. I have a url with the info somewhere, and will look for it. > Does anyone know where I can get these, or (in the case of the power-cord, > for instance) parts to make them? You'll end up having to make the power cable yourself, unless you want to spend allot of money to have someone make it for you. These machines use a 120V 20A twist lock. The plug is a standard NEMA L5-20P, and the receptacle is a standard NEMA L5-20R. The connectors you'll want to get are: Hubbell part numbers: single flush receptacle (outlet): HBL2310 insulgrip plug: HBL2311 insulgrip receptacle: HBL2313 This info came from http://www.hubbell-wiring.com/new/sectionb.pdf but this should save you the trouble of downloading a 2.5mb pdf. The single flush receptacle is the one you'll be installing in a single gang box in your wall. I found this company http://www.isdc.ca/twistlock.html awhile back. I haven't yet ordered any twist lock plugs from them, but they seemed reasonable at the time. You'll need to use 12 gauge stranded wire for the power cord. 400 volt rated cable should be fine. If you have a home depot in your area, have a look at their rack of cable spools, this stuff is sold by the foot. The cable is very flexible, and has a black jacket approx 1/2" in diameter. Make sure you strip the conductors the proper length. There should be a strip gauge on the connector. The end of the conductor should touch the bottom of the hole. The conductor's jacket should be against the clear polycarbonate plastic. Make sure you tighten the screws properly. If they are too loose, the connection will get hot, and could possibly become a fire hazard. If you tighten them too tight, it will damage the wire strands. I'd recommend snugging them, then tighten the screw another 1/4 turn or so. > Any warnings/information/antic dotes for these machines? > > I do intend to use the thing. I also intend to use it at home. It appears > to require 20 Amp service, though, and I have no good 20 Amp outlet within > reach. I do have some 20 Amp and a couple 30 Amp fuses (Yes, fuses. I > intend to replace the one I hook this to with a mini-breaker) in the box, > which I intend to trace before I decide where to plug it in. It may be that > I'll contract somebody to run a 20 Amp outlet for this machine. (Never > having done AC wiring work on my own, I feel that I don't want to start by > wiring an outlet for this beast) Otherwise, the plan will be to plug it > into a circuit with a highly rated fuse on it, and unplug everything else. > Any holes in this plan? The breaker on the power-supply is rated 16 Amps, > btw. I have no idea how much pull to expect from a monitor -- anyone know > whether I can safely use both on the same circuit? That would simplify > things. The only *safe* way to power these machines is a dedicated 20 amp circuit. There are people who have run them on a 15 amp branch circuit, but for a fully loaded system, that could be dangerous. > I believe a best option is to have somebody run a line up from the > washer/dryer hookups in the basement. Those are hooked to 30-amp fuses > already and have cutoff switches. As long as nobody does laundry while the > machine's running, then, it would be fine. :) I would recommend you have an electrician install a dedicated 20 amp circuit. These machines are meant to be breakered at 20 amps. I would not recommend sharing an existing major appliance circuit, since you might forget the computer is on and turn on the appliance. > Lastly, even before I get this thing plugged in, I'd like to inventory it, > and check it for health. What should I look for? Well, from the sounds of it, you already figured out how to release the round push-in latches for the front cover. After you remove a few screws, the card cage cover will fold down. There should be 2 plastic retainer bars with sliding clips that run horizontally in front of the cards. I think the VGX video board set has 2 or 3 cards with a small connecting board plugged into the front side of them. I don't have my VGX nearby right now, and I don't remember for sure. The fan tray below the cards slides out and has 4 large muffin fans. I would not recommend running the machine for long periods of time with the card cage open. I think there is a safety interlock for the front cover on the 4D series, but some systems may have had it bypassed. You'll find diagnostic/status leds and a 7 segment diagnostic display on a pc board located on the metal plate that holds the power switch. If you unscrew the retaining screw on the metal plate, it should slide out and have enough cable to set it on top of the machine. -Toth From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 21 08:22:22 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... In-Reply-To: <00ab01c189e9$b50b81a0$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> References: <3C225885.7060008@aconit.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221081907.03125a70@pc> At 10:35 PM 12/20/2001 -0800, Wayne M. Smith wrote: >> There are many privately held collections. Still in his twenties, >Sellam >> Ismail is nostalgic for the machines of his childhood and obsesivly > >Still in his twenties? That was my first thought, too. And then "machines of his childhood"? I think there's a conflict with the ten-year-rule. :-) I remember chatting with a guy, telling him about some of my work on C-64 games in the early 80s, and he pipes up with something like "Oh yeah, I remember that, I used to play it on my dad's C-64 when I was little." - John From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 21 09:00:33 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011221081907.03125a70@pc> from John Foust at "Dec 21, 1 08:22:22 am" Message-ID: <200112211500.HAA02138@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I remember chatting with a guy, telling him about some > of my work on C-64 games in the early 80s, and he pipes up > with something like "Oh yeah, I remember that, I used to > play it on my dad's C-64 when I was little." Now you've piqued my interest, just in case I've played some of your games on our family C64 when I was little ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- In memory of Greg Morris --------------------------------------------------- From hansp at aconit.org Fri Dec 21 10:48:34 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662CB@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <3C2367E2.5010808@aconit.org> Carlini, Antonio wrote: >>Hey, cool! Any chance of getting a copy >>sent to me for my vanity file? >> > > http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opbooks.jsp?id=ns232110 Ah, but the web page does not have the neat picture of a silicon valley office park. I'll scan the page and make it available.... -- Hans From dittman at dittman.net Fri Dec 21 08:43:47 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Nile 150 In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Dec 21, 2001 02:31:18 AM Message-ID: <200112211443.fBLEhlx05105@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > This should fit in the bed of a typical pickup, but I don't > > know if that's exactly the best way to ship this. I don't > > know what the place wants for the system, but they've tried > > to sell it for a while now without success, so my guess is > > probably the value in scrap. > > What would you guess the scrap value of it is? No, I didn't ask, sorry. > > If anyone is serious about this system, I'll pass on the place's > > phone number and email address. > > I'm quite interested in it, not sure if I can afford it. I'll pass it on to you. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 21 09:19:26 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220232156.00aabc40@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: It was true, we had examples like that in our training manuals in the AF for missile school, to show inovations and how the present day missiles have moved up (back in 76) - even though we still had AIM-4F Falcons that were about the biggest hunk of crap - tubes that were non-functional in certain climates, cracks in glass envelopes, etc. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Matthew Sell Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 11:23 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: URL for "The Wench Bench" The Japanese developed a remote guided bomb as well, but apparently it was easily "jammed" by turning on en electric shaver. Just a story I read from an old '50's book on guided missles and rockets. - Matt At 03:04 PM 12/20/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Interenting topic. How the hell do you build electronics that survives 15000G >! >Got any technical info on RF proximity fuses ? I read somewhere that they >used the capacitance between shell nozecone and target to pull the osc off >frequency, a bit like a Theramin. > >BTW, the Germans developed a remotely controlled TV guided bomb during WW2. >Luckily for the allies the picture broke up as the bomb approached its target >and >development was stopped. > >Chris Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 21 09:26:01 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Now I'm impressed. Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > prompt on a v5.2 VAX/VMS system. OK, now I'm looking at the command > prompt. The SYSTEM password was "system". > TeeHee. I've had SYSTEM, "MANAGER" before. :) You can boot them conversationally, of course, even if you don't have the password, and gain privilege. I've done this on a good three or four machines, and there are a couple different ways to manage it. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 12:15:15 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Now I'm impressed. In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011221181515.64860.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> You would be very surprised how many Oracle databases containing really, really secret information still have the default passwords... --- Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > > prompt on a v5.2 VAX/VMS system. OK, now I'm > looking at the command > > prompt. The SYSTEM password was "system". > > TeeHee. > > I've had SYSTEM, "MANAGER" before. :) > > You can boot them conversationally, of course, even > if you don't have the > password, and gain privilege. I've done this on a > good three or four > machines, and there are a couple different ways to > manage it. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl > Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 15:42:57 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Now I'm impressed. In-Reply-To: <20011221181515.64860.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Loboyko Steve wrote: > You would be very surprised how many Oracle databases > containing really, really secret information still > have the default passwords... Well, that's the other thing. I'm still learning VMS at the level of "how do I do a graceful shutdown?" stuff, so I haven't messed with it, but Oracle is installed on those drives, too. BTW, I do know how to shut down. Just not much else, yet. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 09:59:23 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions Message-ID: Well, I made room on my bench, opened up my grubby, new-to-me 4000/60, and it only has one of the two RZ24 drives my partner paid for. I've fired off email to the vendor asking him to ship the drive and mounting hardware, but I don't expect that he'll have either. What does DEC call the flat metal plate that the hard disk bolts onto? "Mounting bracket"? Does anyone have a spare? I figure I'll have to settle for a newer narrow SCSI drive and the price of the mounting hardware, if it's available. Lastly, while I'm wading through all the Google hits, are there any good reference sites for this box? This is the first 4000 I've been into, and I'd like a map. Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 21 10:29:49 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > "Mounting bracket"? Does anyone have a spare? I figure I'll have to I think the proper VAXish term is 'skid.' Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Dec 21 10:45:57 2001 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions Message-ID: <01KC4J58EWGI91W7EO@cc.usu.edu> > Well, I made room on my bench, opened up my grubby, new-to-me 4000/60, > and it only has one of the two RZ24 drives my partner paid for. I've > fired off email to the vendor asking him to ship the drive and mounting > hardware, but I don't expect that he'll have either. Take a closer look. Two drives can be attached to the plastic clip in the front middle of the machine, on on top and one underneath. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 15:36:14 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <01KC4J58EWGI91W7EO@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Roger Ivie wrote: > Take a closer look. Two drives can be attached to the plastic clip in > the front middle of the machine, on on top and one underneath. Yep. It's the top drive that's gone. It looks, from the way the power & SCSI cables are "settled", like that drive was recently pulled, too. Doc From emu at ecubics.com Fri Dec 21 10:58:49 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions References: Message-ID: <3C236A49.EDF40368@ecubics.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > > Well, I made room on my bench, opened up my grubby, new-to-me 4000/60, > and it only has one of the two RZ24 drives my partner paid for. I've > fired off email to the vendor asking him to ship the drive and mounting > hardware, but I don't expect that he'll have either. > What does DEC call the flat metal plate that the hard disk bolts onto? > "Mounting bracket"? No clue how they call it, but it is "74-41128-something" and around $7. cheers From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 21 10:10:11 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: FS: Floppy drive cable for Ampro Series 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > System appears to be complete and functional, but I have not tried it. > It does NOT have a SCSI card - there is a place for connector for that > with a block-off. The computer is free to whoever buys the cable. > Block off? > The floppy cable (the object of much discussion) is 14" long. At one end > is a MALE dual row header (34 pin) that protrudes through a cutout in the > back of the case. 6.5" (approx) from that connector is a FEMALE card edge > connector that plugs onto the circuit board. 5.5" from that is another > FEMALE card edge on one of the drives. 2" from that is another FEMALE > card edge on the other drive. > IS THAT enough information? Perfect! Thanks. :) g. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 21 11:32:26 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: FS: Floppy drive cable for Ampro Series 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > It does NOT have a SCSI card - there is a place for connector for that > > with a block-off. The computer is free to whoever buys the cable. > Block off? There is a hole in the back of the case that appears to be sized to take a 50 pin male dual row header connector. It is clearly factory labelled "SCSI/PLUS"? (from memory; I could be wrong). There is no connector; instead there is a piece of metal or plastic bolted to the inside of the case covering the hole. > > The floppy cable (the object of much discussion) is 14" long. At one end > > IS THAT enough information? > Perfect! Thanks. :) I understand that somebody might want to replicate the cable rather than use any that works. When I opened it last night, I lost one of the lockwashers from one of the case screws. sorry -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 21 13:13:45 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: FS: Floppy drive cable for Ampro Series 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > It does NOT have a SCSI card - there is a place for connector for that > > > with a block-off. The computer is free to whoever buys the cable. > > Block off? > > There is a hole in the back of the case that appears to be sized to take a > 50 pin male dual row header connector. It is clearly factory labelled > "SCSI/PLUS"? (from memory; I could be wrong). There is no connector; > instead there is a piece of metal or plastic bolted to the inside of the > case covering the hole. > If it's anything like the one I have, the SCSI controller is actually part of the Littleboard. When you where looking at it, was there a 50 pin IDC connector installed on the board? From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 10:15:58 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:29 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011221161558.91295.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > > I have a 5870-121...with... a 120M ESDI drive... > > > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an > > IDE drive. > > The IBM PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef contains a pinout of the hard > disk connector. The signals look to be almost a subset of the MCA > signals. It certainly doesn't look like an ESDI interface. > > I guess you could call it 'IDE', but it's not the same interface as is > used on more normal PCs. I think it could be considered "IDE" in the original sense - Integrating the controller into the drive, but it is not ATA (AT-Attachment) IDE. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 10:35:02 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E Message-ID: Took deliveery of my "New" HP 1000/E last week and yes Virgina, there really is a Santa Clause. For those who would bash eBay, here's proof that there are good deals to be had. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1294677875 Obviously there are no disks or OS but otherwise, the computer seems to be complete. Considering it's age, it's in remarkably good condition. All the cards aand covers are in place, very clean inside. Cool! I powered the thing up and it seems to work. I have absolutely no experience with these machines so, I really can't say for sure. When powered up, some of the lights do come on and I can select different registers and toggle data in and out. So... What's next? I'd really like to see it do "something" even if it's only blinking a coule of the lights. If someone could provide a SIMPLE routine to make it do that, I'd be grateful. Once again, I don't have any exposure with this thing so, I'll need pretty explicit instructions. I'm not familiar with all the cards but, from what I can tell, there is no ASYNC card in the box. I think it was originally used with a HPIB terminal. I do have some HP terminals but, none of them have HPIB interfaces. If anyone has a ASYNC card the'd be willing to part with, please let me know. I'm not sure what the licensing issues are but, would really like to find a OS for the system. I've got plenty of HPIB disks, tapes drives, etc... so copying the OS shouldn't be an issue. If anyone can provide a reasonable solution to getting the OS, once again, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the help and Happy holidays to all, SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 11:47:00 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E References: Message-ID: <006201c18a47$7ded4f60$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> > Took deliveery of my "New" HP 1000/E last week and yes Virgina, there really > is a Santa Clause. For those who would bash eBay, here's proof that there > are good deals to be had. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1294677875 > You were lucky. Had the seller put it in a "vintage" category the bid would have likely gone much higher. From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 12:02:47 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E In-Reply-To: <006201c18a47$7ded4f60$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20011221180247.30127.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> A major coup. And I thought I was clever on eBay searches... --- "Wayne M. Smith" wrote: > > Took deliveery of my "New" HP 1000/E last week and > yes Virgina, there > really > > is a Santa Clause. For those who would bash eBay, > here's proof that > there > > are good deals to be had. > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1294677875 > > > > You were lucky. Had the seller put it in a > "vintage" category the bid > would have likely gone much higher. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Dec 21 14:05:39 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E References: Message-ID: <00d001c18a5a$e08cd420$69721fd1@default> Super deal !!!!!!!!!! Good luck with it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Robertson" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: HP 1000/E > Took deliveery of my "New" HP 1000/E last week and yes Virgina, there really > is a Santa Clause. For those who would bash eBay, here's proof that there > are good deals to be had. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1294677875 > > Obviously there are no disks or OS but otherwise, the computer seems to be > complete. Considering it's age, it's in remarkably good condition. All the > cards aand covers are in place, very clean inside. Cool! > > I powered the thing up and it seems to work. I have absolutely no experience > with these machines so, I really can't say for sure. When powered up, some > of the lights do come on and I can select different registers and toggle > data in and out. > > So... What's next? > > I'd really like to see it do "something" even if it's only blinking a coule > of the lights. If someone could provide a SIMPLE routine to make it do that, > I'd be grateful. Once again, I don't have any exposure with this thing so, > I'll need pretty explicit instructions. > > I'm not familiar with all the cards but, from what I can tell, there is no > ASYNC card in the box. I think it was originally used with a HPIB terminal. > I do have some HP terminals but, none of them have HPIB interfaces. If > anyone has a ASYNC card the'd be willing to part with, please let me know. > > I'm not sure what the licensing issues are but, would really like to find a > OS for the system. I've got plenty of HPIB disks, tapes drives, etc... so > copying the OS shouldn't be an issue. If anyone can provide a reasonable > solution to getting the OS, once again, I'd appreciate it. > > Thanks for the help and Happy holidays to all, > > SteveRob > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Dec 21 15:03:21 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E In-Reply-To: "Steve Robertson" "HP 1000/E" (Dec 21, 11:35) References: Message-ID: <10112212103.ZM29299@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 21, 11:35, Steve Robertson wrote: > Took deliveery of my "New" HP 1000/E last week and yes Virgina, there really > is a Santa Clause. For those who would bash eBay, here's proof that there > are good deals to be had. Nice machine! I can see why you'd be pleased :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Dec 21 11:08:35 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: Round One: PC vs The Dish^H^HBoardwasher Message-ID: <008a01c18a42$212f30e0$91469280@Y5F3Q8> Well, the motherboard, mono card, floppy card, & JRAM just came out of the dishwasher. Sparkling clean (no soap or rinse agents!) and hanging up to dry in the basement for a while. The relay for the cassette has a little condensation inside it, but I'm not too concerned-- worse case I'll pop the plastic cap off. I used hot water, as this thing was filthy. The case is in now, and the cover to follow after that. I think I might use a little soap on the cover-- it's that bad. I left out the AMD harddrive controller and Hayes modem, due to paper ROM stickers & a real honest-to-god paper coned speaker respectively. I won't be able to try it out until I find a clock generator for it, but I figure I have a week or so to do that in anyway. Bob From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Dec 21 12:34:11 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: Rainbow 100+ available. In-Reply-To: <200112210526.fBL5QwB14467@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: ajwotherspoon@NOSPAM.shaw.ca is disposing of it in Victoria, BC, Canada. He mostly wants shipping and a few dollars for it. The announcement should still be fresh on comp.sys.dec.micro. >Where is located the item ? > >Greetings > >Sergio - Mark From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Dec 21 12:37:57 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: <00b101c189e7$dd0c3520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C238F95.14415.9C792055@localhost> > I'm not at all sure one could fairly say the 6502 was a "stripped down M6800. > It has 56 documented instructions, not to mention the undocumented ones, so it's > probably not a RISC. The CMOS version has many more instructions, and it has > more addressing modes than the MOT processor. > It does store low-byte-first, though, so, in that respect, it's different from > the MOT parts. That, and the missed chance to use the BRK instruktion as an SVC instruction (*) are the only parts I never liked about the '02. Gruss H. (*) Yes, I know, the PC was already advanced, and using 12 or so operations to access the byte to read the byte which has already been on the date bus is possible, and often done, none the less, it's a huge missed chance. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Dec 21 12:37:57 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: <00cd01c18998$e936c6c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <3C238F95.14581.9C792064@localhost> > The fact that the 6502 was a kinda striped-down version of > the M6800, and was more efficient from a computing power > perspective, has convinced some people that the 6502 was > the first (and only 8-bit) RISC-processor. Some truth in here. > If the MOS people had given the chip more on board general > purpose registers (i.e. like zero-page memory on-chip) and if they > had truely done away with some more Motorola-like CISC > instructions, it would really have pulled it off as a true RISC-design. As for speed reasons there would have been no difference. Code length would have been the same (instead of a zero page address, the second byte yould have been a register number), and execution size also - The cycle the 6502 used to access the memory youl now have been used internal to execute the instruction. The only gain would have been a cycle where the CPU don't uses the bus. No real advantage - for it'S design the 6502 is close to the possible maximum in terms of efficent timeing. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From wilby98 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 13:18:32 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX Message-ID: <20011221201832.A8466@xs4all.nl> I will be heading to a computer market tomorrow in Amsterdam and am on the lookout for an IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX type box. I found quite a bit of technical information at the IBM web site but was interested in a few other details. Assuming I find one: 1. How important is it that it have a key? 2. How important is it that it have media or able to boot up? (Can I download and install the appropriate version somewhere?) 3. What is an approximate cash value? 4. Are components easy to come by or should I really take a look to make sure everything is there? Thank you, Bill Amsterdam, NL _______________________________________________ GEEKS: http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/geeks From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Dec 21 15:57:34 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX References: <20011221201832.A8466@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <01b801c18a6a$7f2ce660$030101ac@boll.casema.net> What kinda computer market is that in Amsterdam ? That's about 40 miles from my place .............. Sipke de Wal ----------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: William S . To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:18 PM Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX > I will be heading to a computer market tomorrow > in Amsterdam and am on the lookout for an > IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX type box. > I found quite a bit of technical information > at the IBM web site but was interested in a few > other details. > > Assuming I find one: > > 1. How important is it that it have a key? > 2. How important is it that it have media > or able to boot up? (Can I download and install > the appropriate version somewhere?) > 3. What is an approximate cash value? > 4. Are components easy to come by or should > I really take a look to make sure everything > is there? > > Thank you, > > Bill > Amsterdam, NL > _______________________________________________ > GEEKS: http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/geeks From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Fri Dec 21 14:09:20 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers) In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0219AB@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Message-ID: Hi, > Speaking of the A570, has anyone got a spare PSU for one? I've got an A570 here - the A570/A500/A500+/A600/A1200 PSU's are interchangable. > > The other thing I wouldn't mind getting is a replacement CD-TV. I > > had one that I bought new for $800 that was stolen when my house was > > burglarized 9 years ago - they got my A500 (with WEDGE XT > > Short of epay I've only ever seen one CDTV and I snapped it up, then went on > a crusade to find the remote and mouse that were missing, found an unused > remote on epay for ukp12 and he threw in a used mouse and an unused boxed > mouse too :) I'm after one ATM :&) I might finally give up and just get a normal CD player, and use my A570 for any CDTV games I get. -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Dec 21 14:16:23 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: [tfitch@esleeck.com: PDP11] Message-ID: <20011221141623.E376@mrbill.net> Please contact Thomas directly if interested. I'm just passing this on. Bill ----- Forwarded message from "Thomas R. Fitch" ----- From: "Thomas R. Fitch" To: "'mrbill@pdp11.org'" Subject: PDP11 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:19:23 -0500 Mr. Bill, I have a PDP11 in two towers, with 2 crt's and keyboards, and a keyboard printer. All in excellent condition. I also have all of the original documentation. This product is available for pickup from our Turners Falls, MA location. Please contact me if you have any interest. Tom Fitch, Treasurer Esleeck Manufacturing Company 36 Canal Road Turners Falls, MA 01376 (413) 863-4326 ext 206 ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 21 14:26:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: ROM preservation Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E016@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I've been thinking recently that I should possibly get a ROM reader/writer so that I can preserve the ROMs out of all my old parts, and I was wondering whether anyone had some experiences (good or bad) with any different programmers? Which programmers are good, which aren't so good, and why? Where is the best place to get one, and which is the best to get on a tight budget? What about making your own? (Note that I think this may be an interesting project, but I'd really rather put my time into other things right now, so this is near the bottom on my list of options...) One called "Leaper 3" interests me because of its ability to copy one ROM to another without any kind of computer hookup, which I imagine might be useful, but I know nothing else about it. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Dec 21 14:53:10 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: ROM preservation Message-ID: DataIO and Stag programmers seem to be the industry standard. I picked up a DataIO system 19 on ebay recently. It will do vintage eproms up to 27128 as well as bipolar proms, no support for PAL's and PLA's. Comes with RS232, and supports most data formats except Intel Hex. Chris Leyson From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 21 15:09:15 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: ROM preservation In-Reply-To: ROM preservation (Christopher Smith) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E016@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <15395.42235.754108.376839@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 21, Christopher Smith wrote: > I've been thinking recently that I should possibly get a ROM reader/writer > so that I can preserve the ROMs out of all my old parts, and I was wondering > whether anyone had some experiences (good or bad) with any different > programmers? > > Which programmers are good, which aren't so good, and why? If you're serious about programmable devices, Data I/O is the only real choice in my opinion. The company's policies leaves a bit to be desired...their software updates are prohibitively expensive, and it's nearly impossible to use their earlier programmers without docs because you need to translate chip part numbers to "device numbers" to enter into the programmer...but other than that the boxes are great. I have a Data I/O 2900 that I adore. I highly recommend that model, or its big brother, the 3900. > Where is the best place to get one, and which is the best to get on a tight > budget? eBay. Sure, everyone here poo-poos eBay, but face it...it's where you can get anything you want, any time you want. > What about making your own? (Note that I think this may be an interesting > project, but I'd really rather put my time into other things right now, so > this is near the bottom on my list of options...) It's fun, and certainly practical...See early literature by Steve Ciarcia for examples of some simple ones. > One called "Leaper 3" interests me because of its ability to copy one ROM to > another without any kind of computer hookup, which I imagine might be > useful, but I know nothing else about it. Ahh, a "real" device programmer. :-) I despise those dumb things that can't do anything unless connected to a PeeCee running Windows...totally useless to those of us who use real computers and don't allow Windows boxes in our homes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 15:10:52 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: ROM preservation In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E016@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011221211052.4469.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> See below. --- Christopher Smith wrote: > I've been thinking recently that I should possibly > get a ROM reader/writer > so that I can preserve the ROMs out of all my old > parts, and I was wondering > whether anyone had some experiences (good or bad) > with any different > programmers? > > Which programmers are good, which aren't so good, > and why? > > Where is the best place to get one, and which is the > best to get on a tight > budget? > > What about making your own? (Note that I think this > may be an interesting > project, but I'd really rather put my time into > other things right now, so > this is near the bottom on my list of options...) > > One called "Leaper 3" interests me because of its > ability to copy one ROM to > another without any kind of computer hookup, which I > imagine might be > useful, but I know nothing else about it. I have been very pleased with this model: http://www.transtronics.com/memory/EPROM.htm It does up to 32 pin EPROMS without an adapter. The fairly inexpensive adapters let you program uP's and word-oriented ROMs. It's not of production quality but so what at the price. It has pretty good software support (albeit DOS): they came out with a Windows version but I haven't tried it. The price is very good - ~150 US. Weird, though: my model has a center pin negative AC adapter - so I have to be very careful with it in my pile of wall warts. I considered making my own (I did make a 2716 programmer in the past) but if your time is worth anything at all you can't beat this with a hammer. What it won't do (and this may or may not be important to you) is work with "funny" pre-JEDEC ROMS/EPROMS (like the TI 2716 w 3 voltages), or a 2708, 04, or a 1702. 1702's in particular required fantastically weird algorithms and voltages (like, 50 volts!). You will have to do a lot of searching to find a programmer that can do these, chances are they will be used, really old, and totally unsupported by the manufacturer. Half of the programmers people buy on eBay are unsupported by mfgrs (like, DATA I/O, fer example) and a surprising number of those that are supported only have 28 pin sockets. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From ROCKYROADENNIS at aol.com Fri Dec 21 14:28:50 2001 From: ROCKYROADENNIS at aol.com (ROCKYROADENNIS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: siemens nixdorf laser printer/pageprinter md12 Message-ID: <16e.6081459.2954f582@aol.com> driver information if available please regards, rockyroadennis@aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011221/781cd8a7/attachment.html From ROCKYROADENNIS at aol.com Fri Dec 21 14:42:50 2001 From: ROCKYROADENNIS at aol.com (ROCKYROADENNIS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: siemens nixdorf laser printer drivers--model pageprinter md12. Message-ID: <133.69cdab4.2954f8ca@aol.com> printer-driver needed for above printer regardsrockyroadennis@aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011221/9a0343f5/attachment.html From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Dec 21 15:12:33 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: ROM preservation (DataIO system 19) Message-ID: <111.a86b732.2954ffc1@aol.com> Correction: Supports devices up to 27256 and Intel Intellec 8/MDS From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Dec 21 15:35:10 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) Message-ID: <8a.1160eb99.2955050e@aol.com> Dave McGuire writes: > If you're serious about programmable devices, Data I/O is the only > real choice in my opinion. The company's policies leaves a bit to be > desired...their software updates are prohibitively expensive, and it's > nearly impossible to use their earlier programmers without docs > because you need to translate chip part numbers to "device numbers" to > enter into the programmer...but other than that the boxes are great. I agree with Dave, Data I/O were, and probably still are, THE recommended manufacturer for programmers. The system 19 with the Unipack fitted will program 16, 18, 20, 24 and 28 pin DIL packages. It will also handle 2704's and 2708's with odd programming voltages. If anyone ever needs any help with this programmer I've got the manuals including schematics. Chris Leyson From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 21 16:14:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: Microchannel FDDI Message-ID: Hi. I am looking for Microchannel (MCA) DAS FDDI cards for my RS/6K's. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From wilby98 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 16:14:59 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: <01b801c18a6a$7f2ce660$030101ac@boll.casema.net>; from sipke@wxs.nl on Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 10:57:34PM +0100 References: <20011221201832.A8466@xs4all.nl> <01b801c18a6a$7f2ce660$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20011221231459.A10488@xs4all.nl> It is tomorrow at the RAI Center starting at 10.00 uur. www.rai.nl It is PCDumpDag. Bill Amsterdam, NL On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 10:57:34PM +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: > What kinda computer market is that in Amsterdam ? > > That's about 40 miles from my place .............. > > > Sipke de Wal From jrice at texoma.net Fri Dec 21 08:02:48 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011220231930.00a95c10@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3C234108.4070301@texoma.net> I actually didn't ask for it, but I got a second Dimension Cube for an early Christmas gift. This one has a working OD (my other two cubes either have floppys or no removable drive at all) and a couple of optical disks. It also has a NeXT/Hitachi 21" monitor and laser printer. James Matthew Sell wrote: > > My wife and I just picked up a VAX 4000-500 for my Christmas gift. > > The reply from the guy loading the car when he found out it was for > Christmas: > > "Whatever makes you happy, man" > > : ) > > > So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer related... > of course..... > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com > (281) 296-6066 > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... > > > . > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 21 13:35:48 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <3C234108.4070301@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > I actually didn't ask for it, but I got a second Dimension Cube for an > early Christmas gift. This one has a working OD (my other two cubes > either have floppys or no removable drive at all) and a couple of > optical disks. It also has a NeXT/Hitachi 21" monitor and laser printer. You suck. I want a Dimension. Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 21 09:17:35 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Sell [mailto:msell@ontimesupport.com] > My wife and I just picked up a VAX 4000-500 for my Christmas gift. > The reply from the guy loading the car when he found out it > was for Christmas: > "Whatever makes you happy, man" > So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer > related... of > course..... Well, money's a little tight so I'm not getting much computer-related stuff, but I did buy an SGI Indy for my fiancee. ;) She's getting very impatient for it to arrive too. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 21 09:52:00 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from Christopher Smith at "Dec 21, 1 09:17:35 am" Message-ID: <200112211552.HAA11972@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer > related... of course..... I guess my checklist for the Swedish mail order bride service isn't germaine then. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- What happens when you get scared half-to-death twice? ---------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 10:00:58 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > Well, money's a little tight so I'm not getting much computer-related stuff, > but I did buy an SGI Indy for my fiancee. ;) She's getting very impatient > for it to arrive too. Chris, You obviously have excellent taste in women. ;^) Doc From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 12:05:09 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011221180509.40902.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> Where can I get one of these. Not the SGI Indy... --- Doc wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > Well, money's a little tight so I'm not getting > much computer-related stuff, > > but I did buy an SGI Indy for my fiancee. ;) > She's getting very impatient > > for it to arrive too. > > Chris, > You obviously have excellent taste in women. ;^) > > Doc > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Dec 21 10:11:03 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <007401c18a3a$193c4100$69721fd1@default> Parts to repair my Micro PDP11 that was damaged during the move this week. I need the base plate as I broke a piece about 8" long my 3" wide off one side. The front panel was also damaged beyond repair. Anyone having parts for sale contact me at jrkeys@concentric.net. Thanks in advance ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 9:17 AM Subject: RE: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matthew Sell [mailto:msell@ontimesupport.com] > > > My wife and I just picked up a VAX 4000-500 for my Christmas gift. > > > The reply from the guy loading the car when he found out it > > was for Christmas: > > > "Whatever makes you happy, man" > > > So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer > > related... of > > course..... > > Well, money's a little tight so I'm not getting much computer-related stuff, > but I did buy an SGI Indy for my fiancee. ;) She's getting very impatient > for it to arrive too. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 21 10:36:15 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Chris, > You obviously have excellent taste in women. ;^) She's also the proud owner of a MicroVAX, hates windows nearly as much as I... and who do you think brought that new SGI Power Series home? ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 21 11:46:21 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > You obviously have excellent taste in women. ;^) > She's also the proud owner of a MicroVAX, hates windows nearly as much as > I... and who do you think brought that new SGI Power Series home? ;) Does she have a sister? From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 21 12:09:24 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Dec 21, 1 09:46:21 am" Message-ID: <200112211809.KAA09200@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > You obviously have excellent taste in women. ;^) > > She's also the proud owner of a MicroVAX, hates windows nearly as much as > > I... and who do you think brought that new SGI Power Series home? ;) > Does she have a sister? Is she cute? (Oh, sorry, Dave, that's your line. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. ----------------------------------- From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 21 12:23:14 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E012@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > You obviously have excellent taste in women. ;^) > > She's also the proud owner of a MicroVAX, hates windows > nearly as much as > > I... and who do you think brought that new SGI Power Series home? ;) > Does she have a sister? Yes, but he sister is a nearly classic technophobe. They're polar opposites. Sorry. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 21 13:27:11 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E014@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Loboyko Steve [mailto:sloboyko@yahoo.com] > Where can I get one of these. Not the SGI Indy... I'm not sure, actually, I think it was a limited edition or possibly a prototype that they -- for some stupid reason -- never allowed to reach production. In fact, if you take "classic computer" as a descriptive term for a person who uses "classic computers," maybe she should go on the "hardest to find classic computers" thread. ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jrice at texoma.net Fri Dec 21 15:12:58 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E014@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3C23A5DA.8020504@texoma.net> You are lucky. I changed from Wife 1.0 who hated technology and computers to Wife 2.0 who is an avid user (even if I can't get her off M$ products) and not only tolerates my collection but encourages it. She is the contributer of the second cube as well as the NeXT Color Printer. The change over from version 1.0 to 2.0 was very expensive ...in fact so expensive that I would hesitate to do it again. James Christopher Smith wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Loboyko Steve [mailto:sloboyko@yahoo.com] >> > >>Where can I get one of these. Not the SGI Indy... >> > > I'm not sure, actually, I think it was a limited edition or possibly a > prototype that they -- for some stupid reason -- never allowed to reach > production. > > In fact, if you take "classic computer" as a descriptive term for a person > who uses "classic computers," maybe she should go on the "hardest to find > classic computers" thread. ;) > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > . > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 21 16:31:35 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) In-Reply-To: <8a.1160eb99.2955050e@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011221143103.039883d0@mail.zipcon.net> I don't suppose you have the schematics for a model 29? At 04:35 PM 12/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >If anyone ever needs any help with this programmer I've got the manuals >including schematics. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 16:35:16 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: <20011221201832.A8466@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, William S . wrote: > Assuming I find one: > > 1. How important is it that it have a key? Either have a key or "mknod /dev/big_screwdriver" and be handy with a soldering iron. The key not only locks the cabinet, but controls the boot sequence. You need it. > 2. How important is it that it have media > or able to boot up? (Can I download and install > the appropriate version somewhere?) The 7012 series will run at least up to version 4.3.3 AIX. NT PPC will NOT run (yay). Not downloadable, but non-commercial AIX afficionados tend to be generous. Um, Not every 512-byte CD drive will boot on that box. Any Plextor, any IBM-badged reader, and the older NECs will work. Most any 8mm tape drive. If you have an 8mm DAT tape drive, a borrowed mksysb image (bootable full-system backup) tape will probably be the easiest way to get up & running. > 3. What is an approximate cash value? I just today brought home a 7012-340 with 2 350M drives, 2 graphics adapters (I dunno why) ethernet, and 2 64M memory boards for $15. I just wanted the video card. > 4. Are components easy to come by or should > I really take a look to make sure everything > is there? Some things you will want to consider. The 320 & 32h need proprietary serial cables. I can supply pinouts. They, as well as a few others, also have a proprietary external SCSI interface. It looks like a 68-pin connector, but it's not. If it has a 2-or-3 slot graphics adapter and that is IBM-branded, it's a Sabine card and is useless in verions >3.25. Disks aren't a problem, any standard SCSI narrow, <2G will work. You may have to tape it in. RAM cards & SIMMs are proprietary. RAM cards are also somewhat model specific. The card from a 320 won't work in a 350. But they look a lot alike. I'm probably forgetting stuff. The 350 is MUCH faster than the 320 & 340, and the 370 is much faster than that. Not a linear progression, and the price progression isn't either. Doc From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Dec 21 12:28:26 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: <20011221161558.91295.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <20011221232338.SYWS14868.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:15:58 -0800 (PST) > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > > > > I have a 5870-121...with... a 120M ESDI drive... > > > > > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an > > > IDE drive. > > > > The IBM PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef contains a pinout of the hard > > disk connector. The signals look to be almost a subset of the MCA > > signals. It certainly doesn't look like an ESDI interface. > > > > I guess you could call it 'IDE', but it's not the same interface as is > > used on more normal PCs. > > I think it could be considered "IDE" in the original sense - Integrating > the controller into the drive, but it is not ATA (AT-Attachment) IDE. Right. IDE is catch all for different standards. I once got in big arguement till blue in the face because I was younger and didn't get the conception of ATA as IDE. :-) "Intergated Drive Electronics". There are two models of 700 and 720 series which are MCA thinkpads using very rare MCA IDE 2.5" drives. If the HD dies, you're very SOL literally. Requires $500 adapter, mods to thinkpad hardware to accept notebook ATA drives. MCA IDE would describe this correctly. Cheers, Wizard > -ethan From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Dec 21 18:47:44 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... Message-ID: In a message dated 12/21/01 6:29:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, jpero@sympatico.ca writes: << There are two models of 700 and 720 series which are MCA thinkpads using very rare MCA IDE 2.5" drives. If the HD dies, you're very SOL literally. Requires $500 adapter, mods to thinkpad hardware to accept notebook ATA drives. MCA IDE would describe this correctly. >> actually those thinkpad drives are EDSI. not upgradeable of course, but since OS/2 works so well on those 700 series, why would one use anything else? From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Dec 21 14:10:13 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011222010521.DPDU6216.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:47:44 EST > Subject: Re: Speaking of PS/2s... > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > In a message dated 12/21/01 6:29:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jpero@sympatico.ca writes: > > << There are two models of 700 and 720 series which are MCA thinkpads > using very rare MCA IDE 2.5" drives. If the HD dies, you're very > SOL literally. Requires $500 adapter, mods to thinkpad hardware to > accept notebook ATA drives. > > MCA IDE would describe this correctly. >> > > actually those thinkpad drives are EDSI. not upgradeable of course, but since > OS/2 works so well on those 700 series, why would one use anything else? Yes, can do with third-party adapter and bios swap to convert MCA IDE to ATA notebook HD but very expensive, I thought of having one for my former 700C. But at $500+ a pop, OUCH! Anyway, OS/2 do well on PS/2 w/ scsi and good peecees I'm very relucent to stick w/ dead-end interfaces especially on data storages like MCA-IDE drives are no longer made and too small and aging very poorly, back in '89-'91 when we had to support PS/2s machines, we saw too many dying MCA-IDE drives and IBM had to recall few of these. Nitpick: EDSI is type of chipset for the drive's side, ESDI controllers can be MCA, ISA, or inbetween like SCSI etc. On PS/2 MCA-based machines IBM intially used MCA-IDE drives, the everything IBM put on that drive, ESDI chipsets plus MCA stuff into HD's logic board. These drives interface directly into machine's MCA bus via pass through adapters to the planar (IBMese). Same with 700/720 thinkpads except IBM used 2.5" MCA-IDE. Very rare now. Same idea on peecees except these originally interfaces directly to 16bit ISA bus w/ early and current ATA drives. Cheers, Wizard From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 21 16:45:05 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Dec 21, 2001 03:36:14 PM Message-ID: <200112212245.fBLMj5212464@shell1.aracnet.com> > Yep. It's the top drive that's gone. It looks, from the way the power & > SCSI cables are "settled", like that drive was recently pulled, too. > > Doc Try and find an RZ28 for your primary disk and put your swap on the RZ24. Might even be worthwhile to get two RZ28's for it. A 2GB disk like the RZ28 will hold most stuff you need on a OpenVMS/VAX system. Shoot, I've got a really nice 10k RPM 9GB drive on my PWS433au for a system disk and even with all the software that's installed I still have tons of room for it (the data is all on RZ29's in a BA350). Does the VS4000/60 have a CD-ROM drive? If not something like a RRD42 should suffice nicely. If you've access to someplace with a lot of old SCSI CD-ROM's, just look for one that supports 512-byte blocks. You need that to boot. Something like a TLZ06 4mm DAT drive would be a nice complement to the system as well. I've got a VS4000/60 it's an excellent system to have if you're most interested in running VMS on a VAX! BTW, if you want to expand your disk capacity a BA350 works great on one. Zane From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Dec 21 16:57:05 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: Microchannel FDDI Message-ID: <71.17bfd556.29551841@aol.com> In a message dated 12/21/01 5:19:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, vance@ikickass.org writes: << Hi. I am looking for Microchannel (MCA) DAS FDDI cards for my RS/6K's. Thanks. >> Ive got two SKNet ones that i'd be willing to trade provided you can find me some Serverguard cards... From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 17:05:03 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:30 2005 Subject: Microchannel FDDI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > Hi. I am looking for Microchannel (MCA) DAS FDDI cards for my RS/6K's. > Thanks. Full-length MCA or the little header card for the 7013? Doc From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 21 17:34:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: Microchannel FDDI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > > Hi. I am looking for Microchannel (MCA) DAS FDDI cards for my RS/6K's. > > Thanks. > > Full-length MCA or the little header card for the 7013? Both, but more of the MCA cards. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 21 17:10:50 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > The 350 is MUCH faster than the 320 & 340, and the 370 is much faster > than that. Not a linear progression, and the price progression isn't > either. Let's not forget the holy grail of MCA RS/6K's, the RS/6000 390H. Peace... Sridhar From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Dec 21 17:15:28 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) Message-ID: <11b.8ee15ce.29551c90@aol.com> Geoff Reed wrote > I don't suppose you have the schematics for a model 29? Sorry Geoff can't help there. However if enough people are interested I am prepared to draw up the System 19 schematics in Orcad and provide a dump of the software. As the programmer is 20 years old, it falls into the classic category and should be documented somehow. More important still - programming algorithms for vintage silicon should be documented. Chris Leyson From ROCKYROADENNIS at aol.com Fri Dec 21 17:23:44 2001 From: ROCKYROADENNIS at aol.com (ROCKYROADENNIS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: siemens nixdorf laser printer driver for pageprinter model md12 Message-ID: <13.3d3b54e.29551e80@aol.com> driver wanted regards rockyroadennis@aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011221/9e9b05cc/attachment.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 21 17:24:12 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <015001c18a77$869ecd20$62ed9a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things you've got >to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately deletes the Z180, >and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. There are Why? they are still z80 core and code compatable. While they add things like serial IO, timers and MMU they are Z80, maybe more so than 65C02. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 21 17:53:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <015001c18a77$869ecd20$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <002d01c18a7a$a8ef9000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> We went through all this a couple of years back under the same heading. If the Z235980 at 234 THz is code compatible then, if I understand you correctly, it IS a Z80, right? Even though the Z180 won't fit in a Z80 socket, you'd sell it as a Z80 anyway, right? Even though it didn't even exist back when it mattered, you still insist it's a Z80, right? My Pentium executes the Z80 code just fine at about 75x the speed of of a Z80. Does that mean it's a Z-80? We're comparing CHIPS, not philosophical constructs. If it IS a Z80, or Mostek 3480, or something else EXACTLY a Z80, i.e. built under the license, pin-compatible, code-compatible, etc. then MAYBE it's germane to this discussion. No chip that isn't a pin-compatible substitute commonly referred to as a Z80 back in the days when the Z80 mattered is germane to this topic. If it won't plug into the socket of a Z80, FORGET IT, because it's not a Z80. If that's too difficult for you, then please ask an adult why a 47-ohm resistor isn't the same thing as a 75-ohm resistor. I'm sure glad you're not trying to sell parts any more, Allison. I'd hate to have to argue with you that the choke you're trying to pitch isn't a diode. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:24 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things > you've got > >to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately deletes > the Z180, > >and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. > There are > > > Why? they are still z80 core and code compatable. While they add things > like > serial IO, timers and MMU they are Z80, maybe more so than 65C02. > > Allison > > > From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Dec 21 18:34:05 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <121.93d3356.29552efd@aol.com> Come on guys cool it. Who really cares if a Z80 is faster than a 6502 ? I sure as hell don't. For those who are interested check out the following: US Patent 4004281 Microprocessor Chip Register Bus Structure (6800) US Patent 4332008 Microprocessor Aparatus and Method (Z80) US Patent 3991307 ...on the fly correction to provide decimal results (6502) By the way, the 6800 Patent has complete circuit diagram. The Z80 also contained DRAM refresh circuitry that the 6502 didn't. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 21 17:39:02 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: MITS 2SIO serial chip? Message-ID: <01a301c18a79$a156c9e0$62ed9a8d@ajp166> From: Bill Pechter >IIRC the Intel 8251 did full Sync as well as >Async which was a plus. It's annoying Yes, worked ok too. >drawback -- (DEC used it in the Robin and >Rainbow) was the lack of modem flow control >support. Design limited but it was there in the Robin. The robin was full modem controls on the comm port. >I'd have killed for an 8251 with >CTS/RTS/DSR/DTR and DCD all on chip. The only one the 8251 doesn't handle or have a pin for was DCD. The others are all there. >Perhaps it should've been done on two chips >if Intel couldn't get it on one. Pincount, they would have needed a 29 pin. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 21 17:44:50 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: 8284a, where to find? Message-ID: <01a401c18a79$a1da2ab0$62ed9a8d@ajp166> From: Robert Schaefer >look for another one-- mouser and digikey are all that comes to mind. (Is >this an 8284a, or an 8284?) The 8284 and the 8284A are not the same part and it will make a difference. The 84A is easy to fins and common to many clone wrecks. Allison From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Dec 21 18:11:02 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: 8284a, where to find? References: <01a401c18a79$a1da2ab0$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <011b01c18a7d$251d3220$91469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 06:44 PM Subject: Re: 8284a, where to find? > From: Robert Schaefer > > > >look for another one-- mouser and digikey are all that comes to mind. > (Is > >this an 8284a, or an 8284?) > > > The 8284 and the 8284A are not the same part and it will make a > difference. > The 84A is easy to fins and common to many clone wrecks. I mentioned earlier how I twisted off two pins (9 & 10, I believe). What I have is an AMD part, D8284A, out of an IBM PC. I managed to find a site that called out 8284 as a 8088 clock generator, and right under it was a 8284A listed as IBM mfgr so I made a leap... I had a small handful of clone boards at one time, but it seems I pitched them a while back. I can't see any way I would have thrown out a socketed chip, so I _may_ still have one, but I'm pretty sure that it'll be quicker in the long run to find one somewhere else. > > Allison > Bob From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Dec 21 18:17:09 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: Round two: PC vs the Dishwasher Message-ID: <012501c18a7e$04f286c0$91469280@Y5F3Q8> Well, it turns out the case isn't in as good of shape as the boards inside it. After a good washing, the cover has surface rust all over it. Not from the washing, but from the 'storage' it sufferred thru before I came across it. I ended up taking out the top drawer to make enough room to stand the case on it's end. I tried with it sitting flat on the top of it, but that didn't work out so well-- hadda run it thru twice. Bob From dittman at dittman.net Fri Dec 21 18:28:08 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: Now I'm impressed. In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Dec 21, 2001 03:42:57 PM Message-ID: <200112220028.fBM0S8606714@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > You would be very surprised how many Oracle databases > > containing really, really secret information still > > have the default passwords... > > Well, that's the other thing. I'm still learning VMS at the level of > "how do I do a graceful shutdown?" stuff, so I haven't messed with it, > but Oracle is installed on those drives, too. > BTW, I do know how to shut down. Just not much else, yet. I found a copy of AutoCAD for VAX/VMS on a VS3100 someone game me. I need to copy it to a working system and give it a try. I've had it for at least four years but never got around to running it. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 21 12:38:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:31 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: <20011221012046.TJUP10118.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Dec 20, 1 08:25:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 952 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011221/0547afa7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 21 12:42:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Found today ISD EPROM? In-Reply-To: <016301c189c8$e5442f00$2f701fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Dec 20, 1 08:39:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011221/c6190435/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 21 19:15:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Kraft vs. IBM joystick innards comparison In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Dec 21, 1 00:17:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011222/0e0361a3/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 21 19:48:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <121.93d3356.29552efd@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c18a8a$ba5a8920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Nobody really cares, but it's certainly not reasonable to argue that, because it has a Z in it's name, the Z180 or Z280, or whatever, is a Z80. I once involved myself in a pretty thorough evaluation of 6502 and Z80 and found that it's difficult as hell to conjure up a test that really compares the two on a strict basis of performance. Most manufacturers essentially rated their processors on the basis of how many NOP's they could execute in a second. It seems silly, but it's probably as good a yardstick as any for establishing relative speed. However, that definitely gives the 6502 an advantage, and we wouldn't want to disadvantage the venerable old Z80, since everybody knows it's faster than the 6502, right? Anybody who gives this comparison any thought will quickly realize that it's not an easy pair to compare. In reality, there was a MUCH larger software base for the Z80, so many tasks would still be waiting to be coded, even today, but for the fact that they'd already been done for the 8080, the code for which runs without modification, in most cases, on a Z80,.by the time the 6502 became popular. Now, I've always believed the 6502 at 1 MHz to compare favorably with the 4 MHz Z80, but I used the Z80 running CP/M 2.2 to do useful work, since it was a lot more trouble squeezing useful work out of a 6502 back in '78-'79. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 5:34 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > Come on guys cool it. Who really cares if a Z80 is faster than a 6502 ? > I sure as hell don't. > > For those who are interested check out the following: > US Patent 4004281 Microprocessor Chip Register Bus Structure (6800) > US Patent 4332008 Microprocessor Aparatus and Method (Z80) > US Patent 3991307 ...on the fly correction to provide decimal results (6502) > > By the way, the 6800 Patent has complete circuit diagram. > The Z80 also contained DRAM refresh circuitry that the 6502 didn't. > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 21 20:27:25 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <021901c18a90$bce8ed70$62ed9a8d@ajp166> When you get over it... Talking about 20mhz 65C02s and other "fast" parts that didn't exist when even the z180 (orginally 64180) was introduced is equally bogus. A Pentuim anything running a Z80 emulator is still emulation and not native silicon. Now cut the crap. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:06 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) >We went through all this a couple of years back under the same heading. If the >Z235980 at 234 THz is code compatible then, if I understand you correctly, it IS >a Z80, right? Even though the Z180 won't fit in a Z80 socket, you'd sell it as >a Z80 anyway, right? Even though it didn't even exist back when it mattered, >you still insist it's a Z80, right? > >My Pentium executes the Z80 code just fine at about 75x the speed of of a Z80. >Does that mean it's a Z-80? > >We're comparing CHIPS, not philosophical constructs. If it IS a Z80, or Mostek >3480, or something else EXACTLY a Z80, i.e. built under the license, >pin-compatible, code-compatible, etc. then MAYBE it's germane to this >discussion. No chip that isn't a pin-compatible substitute commonly referred to >as a Z80 back in the days when the Z80 mattered is germane to this topic. If it >won't plug into the socket of a Z80, FORGET IT, because it's not a Z80. If >that's too difficult for you, then please ask an adult why a 47-ohm resistor >isn't the same thing as a 75-ohm resistor. > >I'm sure glad you're not trying to sell parts any more, Allison. I'd hate to >have to argue with you that the choke you're trying to pitch isn't a diode. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:24 PM >Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > >> From: Richard Erlacher >> >> >> >There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things >> you've got >> >to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately deletes >> the Z180, >> >and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. >> There are >> >> >> Why? they are still z80 core and code compatable. While they add things >> like >> serial IO, timers and MMU they are Z80, maybe more so than 65C02. >> >> Allison >> >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 21 20:40:32 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <022201c18a92$d7fe2560$62ed9a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >without modification, in most cases, on a Z80,.by the time the 6502 became >popular. Now, I've always believed the 6502 at 1 MHz to compare favorably with >the 4 MHz Z80, but I used the Z80 running CP/M 2.2 to do useful work, since it >was a lot more trouble squeezing useful work out of a 6502 back in '78-'79. If anything I'd say CP/M was a factor more than any virtue of Z80. I say that as most "z80" code underused the Z80 as a fancy 8080. One may wonder if a cp/m like (or better!) OS existed for 6502 such that it was portable or easily ported if things may have developed differently. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 20:26:25 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > > The 350 is MUCH faster than the 320 & 340, and the 370 is much faster > > than that. Not a linear progression, and the price progression isn't > > either. > > Let's not forget the holy grail of MCA RS/6K's, the RS/6000 390H. Forever and ever, Amen. But we *were* talking about a swap fest.... I guess finding a 390 there is possible, but so is hitting the Lotto. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 20:41:17 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > Either have a key or "mknod /dev/big_screwdriver" and be handy with a > soldering iron. The key not only locks the cabinet, but controls the > boot sequence. You need it. Damn. Typing in shorthand again. Let me go back & finish the sentences. The soldering iron is for replacing a hammered lock barrel with a 3-way switch. If you need to, let me know, I'll get you the switch positions. > > I just today brought home a 7012-340 with 2 350M drives, 2 graphics > adapters (I dunno why) ethernet, and 2 64M memory boards for $15. I just > wanted the video card. I meant to point out that the deal I got has no relation to the value. Anything older & slower than a 370 or a 390h will vary wildly in price. If I didn't already have a couple, I'd probably give 40-50 USD for this one. > The 350 is MUCH faster than the 320 & 340, and the 370 is much faster > than that. Not a linear progression, and the price progression isn't > either. Like the Boatman pointed out, if you find a 390H grab it. They still typically go for several hundred on ebay. Also, if you have room for it, the 7013 series are often better-equipped and cheaper. They have more MCA slots, room for more disk & tape drives, and more memory slots. What's less well-known is that the system bus is a fair bit faster than that of the comparable 7012 boxen. Plus, it'll keep you warm in the winter, and your cats will love the fan vibes. Doc From djg at drs-esg.com Fri Dec 21 20:28:37 2001 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: DEC bus driver/receiver chips Message-ID: <200112220228.VAA04575@drs-esg.com> >From: "Carlini, Antonio" > But I don't have that one - or anything > PDP-8 related ... anyone have WT78 > printsets or docs? :-) > Yes (assuming the VT78/WS78/WT78 are all the same thing). Are you needing some part in particular or just general looking? David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 20:52:28 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200112212245.fBLMj5212464@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Try and find an RZ28 for your primary disk and put your swap on the RZ24. > Might even be worthwhile to get two RZ28's for it. A 2GB disk like the RZ28 > will hold most stuff you need on a OpenVMS/VAX system. Shoot, I've got a > really nice 10k RPM 9GB drive on my PWS433au for a system disk and even with > all the software that's installed I still have tons of room for it (the data > is all on RZ29's in a BA350). I have a boxfull of 2-4.5G narrow SCSI drives. Will the 4000 & VMS deal with a third-party drive OK? > Does the VS4000/60 have a CD-ROM drive? If not something like a RRD42 > should suffice nicely. If you've access to someplace with a lot of old SCSI > CD-ROM's, just look for one that supports 512-byte blocks. You need that to > boot. Something like a TLZ06 4mm DAT drive would be a nice complement to > the system as well. It came without, but I've got a Jensen in the garage (DEC 2000/150AXP) that may lose it's CD-ROM. IIRC, it's an RRD42, but it's been awhile since that one was up. If I can find the mount rails and a face-plate, I'll put the RRD42 in the VAX. Otherwise, I have a whole collection of 512-byte-aware drives in external enclosures. I've been playing with RS/6000s for a long time. :) > I've got a VS4000/60 it's an excellent system to have if you're most > interested in running VMS on a VAX! BTW, if you want to expand your disk > capacity a BA350 works great on one. What I really lack is detailed documentation. I like diagrams & exploded views a lot. Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 21 10:05:17 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Power Series Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > Nice...I have a number 4D series machines myself. I haven't > yet found a > source for IRIX 4.0.5 and 5.3 for them tho :/ I have Irix 5.3 on CD-ROM, and have been assuming that will work for now. I also have the original disks (two of them) in the machine. > You can boot these machines with a dumb terminal on the first serial port. > The serial ports have a different pinout then just about any other > computer. I have a url with the info somewhere, and will look for it. Yeah, but it's an SGI ;) > I would recommend you have an electrician install a dedicated 20 amp > circuit. These machines are meant to be breakered at 20 amps. > I would not > recommend sharing an existing major appliance circuit, since you might > forget the computer is on and turn on the appliance. I am kind of leaning towards that option. The only question is price. My guess is it should certainly be less than $200 or so to have done, and likely less than $100, depending on the work involved. That is a guess, though. > holds the power switch. If you unscrew the retaining screw on > the metal > plate, it should slide out and have enough cable to set it on > top of the > machine. I've taken a look at the card-cage, actually. From your description of VGX graphics, it seems to me (not having the thing in front of me right now) that I may have had too many boards. What are the chances the graphics have been upgraded without changing the tags? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 21:42:25 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Unidentified 80-pin 32M modules Message-ID: Hi. The shop I buy a lot of custom stuff from gave me (not free, on spec) some 80-pin RAM modules. Mel thought they would run in the VS4000/60, and the form-factor is identical. They seat perfectly in the memory slots, and the locator-pin holes are right. Except the Vax won't boot at all with that memory installed. I've looked around on the web, and can't identify them. There are 2 paper labels: a QC label with 2 lines, the first line varies, the second line is the same on all: UNI00-20533-064 and a small label with what looks like a DEC/Compaq part number: 33522947-001 Does anybody know what those are? and/or need them? Doc From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 21 22:07:45 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Unidentified 80-pin 32M modules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They *might* be MS02-CA's for DECstation 5000/1XX machines. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:42:25 -0600 (CST) > From: Doc Shipley > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: Classic Computers > Subject: Unidentified 80-pin 32M modules > > Hi. > The shop I buy a lot of custom stuff from gave me (not free, on spec) > some 80-pin RAM modules. Mel thought they would run in the VS4000/60, > and the form-factor is identical. They seat perfectly in the memory > slots, and the locator-pin holes are right. > Except the Vax won't boot at all with that memory installed. I've > looked around on the web, and can't identify them. > There are 2 paper labels: > > a QC label with 2 lines, the first line varies, the second line is the > same on all: > > UNI00-20533-064 > > and a small label with what looks like a DEC/Compaq part number: > > 33522947-001 > > > Does anybody know what those are? and/or need them? > > Doc > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 21 21:50:24 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Power Series In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > > > Nice...I have a number 4D series machines myself. I haven't > > yet found a > > source for IRIX 4.0.5 and 5.3 for them tho :/ > > I have Irix 5.3 on CD-ROM, and have been assuming that will work for now. I > also have the original disks (two of them) in the machine. All of my machines except one have their original drives. The only machine I have that seems to be missing a drive is a 210S in a rackmount enclosure. It has a hole in the front where a full height scsi drive should go. Maybe it was designed for a tape drive instead? It has 4 1gb drives in the lower portion of the rack, below a large tape drive system. One of my machines has a cdrom on a pull-out sled. If I could find more sleds, I would probably put cdrom drives in the rest too. > > You can boot these machines with a dumb terminal on the first serial port. > > The serial ports have a different pinout then just about any other > > computer. I have a url with the info somewhere, and will look for it. > > Yeah, but it's an SGI ;) The video really was nice for its day, but a lack of texture memory somewhat limits it for today's graphics intensive software. > > I would recommend you have an electrician install a dedicated 20 amp > > circuit. These machines are meant to be breakered at 20 amps. > > I would not > > recommend sharing an existing major appliance circuit, since you might > > forget the computer is on and turn on the appliance. > > I am kind of leaning towards that option. The only question is price. My > guess is it should certainly be less than $200 or so to have done, and > likely less than $100, depending on the work involved. That is a guess, > though. You could always gather up all the materials beforehand. If you already have everything, it should cost less, since they won't be charging a huge markup for parts. > I've taken a look at the card-cage, actually. From your description of VGX > graphics, it seems to me (not having the thing in front of me right now) > that I may have had too many boards. What are the chances the graphics have > been upgraded without changing the tags? You may have some extra stuff that was added in an upgrade. It's also possible that only a few of the boards currently in the computer are original. The card cage is somewhat universal for the 4D line, so someone could have done some serious upgrades at some point. What color is the wrap-around part on the front/top of the machine? The standard colors that I'm familiar with are; blue for a VGX, red for a GTX, and green for GT. -Toth From UberTechnoid at Home.com Fri Dec 21 21:59:13 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200112212245.fBLMj5212464@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20011222040021.KRE26905.femail41.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I've got a Vaxtation 4000/60 also! I can tell you that it is HIGHLY unlikely you will find a cdrom drive from which you can install VMS. Mine is running VMS 7.2 and NetBSD 1.5.2. After MUCH screwing around I finally just went out and got an RRD40 to install systems software. If booting isn't your thing however, almost any scsi cdrom will suffice. Regards, Jeff In <200112212245.fBLMj5212464@shell1.aracnet.com>, on 12/21/01 at 02:45 PM, "Zane H. Healy" said: >> Yep. It's the top drive that's gone. It looks, from the way the power & >> SCSI cables are "settled", like that drive was recently pulled, too. >> >> Doc >Try and find an RZ28 for your primary disk and put your swap on the RZ24. >Might even be worthwhile to get two RZ28's for it. A 2GB disk like the >RZ28 will hold most stuff you need on a OpenVMS/VAX system. Shoot, I've >got a really nice 10k RPM 9GB drive on my PWS433au for a system disk and >even with all the software that's installed I still have tons of room for >it (the data is all on RZ29's in a BA350). >Does the VS4000/60 have a CD-ROM drive? If not something like a RRD42 >should suffice nicely. If you've access to someplace with a lot of old >SCSI CD-ROM's, just look for one that supports 512-byte blocks. You need >that to boot. Something like a TLZ06 4mm DAT drive would be a nice >complement to the system as well. >I've got a VS4000/60 it's an excellent system to have if you're most >interested in running VMS on a VAX! BTW, if you want to expand your disk >capacity a BA350 works great on one. > Zane -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 22:27:27 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20011222040021.KRE26905.femail41.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 UberTechnoid@Home.com wrote: > I've got a Vaxtation 4000/60 also! I can tell you that it is HIGHLY > unlikely you will find a cdrom drive from which you can install VMS. Mine > is running VMS 7.2 and NetBSD 1.5.2. After MUCH screwing around I finally > just went out and got an RRD40 to install systems software. I'd be willing to bet that one of the drives sitting here will boot VMS. At least 2 of them will boot & install VMS on the Alpha. You just have to talk sweet and hold your mouth right. Failing that, I'll go downstairs & rape the AXP 150. It has an RRD4x drive. I can't remember if it's a 40 or 42. Doc From dittman at dittman.net Fri Dec 21 22:29:27 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20011222040021.KRE26905.femail41.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@Home.com" at Dec 21, 2001 10:59:13 PM Message-ID: <200112220429.fBM4TRQ01772@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I've got a Vaxtation 4000/60 also! I can tell you that it is HIGHLY > unlikely you will find a cdrom drive from which you can install VMS. Mine > is running VMS 7.2 and NetBSD 1.5.2. After MUCH screwing around I finally > just went out and got an RRD40 to install systems software. I've not had much problems finding drives that will boot a 4000/60. I've used an RRD42, a couple of Toshibas, and a couple of Plextors without any problems. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 22:02:31 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. Message-ID: Well, most of one anyway. I have a 7011-250 upgraded from a 7011-220, which means that I replaced literally everything but the case. So I have the 220 entire, if you want to mount it on something. This includes PSU, system board, MCA riser, 8-bit color adapter & riser, floppy drive & cable, and the lock barrel & key. A standard >2G scsi disk & cable will work. I've heard that the graphics adapter is not supported past AIX v3.25, but I promise you don't want to run X on this dog anyway. Or you could use a standard MCA graphics adapter. I need an internal SCSI cable for my VS3100 m38, a memory expansion board for the PS/2 8570, and a GXT130P graphics adapter. I'd consider Q-Bus drive controllers for the VS-II I may or may not be rebuilding, depending on whether the trade for CPU & RAM goes through. If you have something that's worth more than the RS/6000 pieces/parts, let me know what else you need. I'm suffering no delusions concerning the value of an orphaned 7011-220. Doc From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 21 22:20:20 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > Well, most of one anyway. I have a 7011-250 upgraded from a 7011-220, > which means that I replaced literally everything but the case. So I have > the 220 entire, if you want to mount it on something. This includes PSU, > system board, MCA riser, 8-bit color adapter & riser, floppy drive & > cable, and the lock barrel & key. A standard >2G scsi disk & cable will > work. I've heard that the graphics adapter is not supported past AIX > v3.25, but I promise you don't want to run X on this dog anyway. Or you > could use a standard MCA graphics adapter. > I need an internal SCSI cable for my VS3100 m38, a memory expansion > board for the PS/2 8570, and a GXT130P graphics adapter. I'd consider > Q-Bus drive controllers for the VS-II I may or may not be rebuilding, > depending on whether the trade for CPU & RAM goes through. If you have > something that's worth more than the RS/6000 pieces/parts, let me know > what else you need. I'm suffering no delusions concerning the value of > an orphaned 7011-220. Would you like a fully loaded memory expansion option for an 8570 in exchange for this machine? It's 16 MB. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 21 22:35:33 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Would you like a fully loaded memory expansion option for an 8570 in > exchange for this machine? It's 16 MB. Done. I'll power him up & check him out before shipping. BTW, you probably already know it takes standard PS/2 SIMMs. Not included. Doc From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 21 23:11:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <021901c18a90$bce8ed70$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <004d01c18aa7$1e7c03e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I didn't bring those up, Allison. You're the one who brought up the 10 MHz part and made the ill-considered statement that there exists any basis for comparison between a Z80 and a 6502 at the same clock rate, or even with the Z80 at twice the clock rate. A 10 MHz part didn't exist back then either, nor did the latest shrink of the CMOS 6502. What I've been going on about is a way of reconciling the major architectural differences that make a comparison on the basis of performance of the processor core/instruction set possible. Talking simply about clock rate is almost meaningless, since the way in which the processors behave with respect to the clock differes greatly. If you want to insist that you can devise a task, any task at all, mind you, that you can code in Z80 code to run at 2x the clock rate of a 6502, in, say, <80 lines of assembler, that's strictly a computing task, just to leave I/O out of it, or any I/O task that you think you can code in legitimate Z80 instructions, providing a precise spec for the I/O task, then I'd certainly come out and say you can't cook a legitimate one up that a 6502 can't accomplish in less time, in the case of the computing task, and that, since the I/O task spec limits the rate, the 6502 will be able to do it as well. I'd like to see a task that meets those spec's. I'm pretty sure that a 2 MHz 6502 can easily handle transfers to/from an 8" floppy drive via a WD-179x using MFM without any hardware synchronization using, say, the wait line. I'm also pretty comfortable that the Z80 would have to strain. I certainly don't know that it's impossible, but every controller I've seen that handles MFM on 8" floppy drives for use with a Z80 uses the Wait line to sync up with the DRQ signal. For a 2 MHz 6502, it's a leisurely task requiring no hardware for synchronizing the process at all. The crux of making a reasonable comparison between a 6502, avaialble in the '70's, and a Z80, also available in the '70's, is selecting a clock and hardware arrangement that makes it possible for the Z80 to compete with the 6502 on a fair basis at all. To run without waits, the Z80 requires relatively fast memory, which, in its day, would make the system too costly. Running the Z80 with the same memory that the 6502 requires would make the Z80 too slow to compete. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:27 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > When you get over it... > > Talking about 20mhz 65C02s and other "fast" parts that didn't exist when > even the z180 (orginally 64180) was introduced is equally bogus. > You brought 'em up, I didn't. My main 6502, back in '79, was a Synertek NMOS 6502C, specified to run at a 4 MHz clock. They were production parts, avaiable through every one of their distributors. They stopped making those when the CMOS part became available, since it was more profitable. > > A Pentuim anything running a Z80 emulator is still emulation and not > native silicon. > A Z180 is not a Z80. > > Now cut the crap. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:06 PM > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > >We went through all this a couple of years back under the same heading. > If the > >Z235980 at 234 THz is code compatible then, if I understand you > correctly, it IS > >a Z80, right? Even though the Z180 won't fit in a Z80 socket, you'd > sell it as > >a Z80 anyway, right? Even though it didn't even exist back when it > mattered, > >you still insist it's a Z80, right? > > > >My Pentium executes the Z80 code just fine at about 75x the speed of of > a Z80. > >Does that mean it's a Z-80? > > > >We're comparing CHIPS, not philosophical constructs. If it IS a Z80, or > Mostek > >3480, or something else EXACTLY a Z80, i.e. built under the license, > >pin-compatible, code-compatible, etc. then MAYBE it's germane to this > >discussion. No chip that isn't a pin-compatible substitute commonly > referred to > >as a Z80 back in the days when the Z80 mattered is germane to this > topic. If it > >won't plug into the socket of a Z80, FORGET IT, because it's not a Z80. > If > >that's too difficult for you, then please ask an adult why a 47-ohm > resistor > >isn't the same thing as a 75-ohm resistor. > > > >I'm sure glad you're not trying to sell parts any more, Allison. I'd > hate to > >have to argue with you that the choke you're trying to pitch isn't a > diode. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "ajp166" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:24 PM > >Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > > >> From: Richard Erlacher > >> > >> > >> >There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things > >> you've got > >> >to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately > deletes > >> the Z180, > >> >and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. > >> There are > >> > >> > >> Why? they are still z80 core and code compatable. While they add > things > >> like > >> serial IO, timers and MMU they are Z80, maybe more so than 65C02. > >> > >> Allison > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 21 23:19:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <022201c18a92$d7fe2560$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <005301c18aa8$3a7d17e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'd completely agree with your observation regarding the OS. Further, I'd say the Z80 wouldn't have been the success it turned out to be, but for CP/M. The OS that Apple produced was the only major OS for the 6502 as far as I know. I recognize there were some later attempts at an OS for the later systems by Commodore et al but they were never comparable with CP/M or Apple DOS. One of our local 6502'ers wrote a pretty sensible OS for the 6502 that was ported to several systems including a KIM-1 with extra memory, and, among others, my home-built version of a 6502-group favorite homebrew. I didn't like the results folks were getting with their Apples, and, being a stubborn guy, I insisted on using it to do my correspondence, etc, until, finally, I broke down and went to CP/M, since it was SOOO much easier and more convenient. One taste and the infatuation with the 6502 for doing "useful work" was over. I didn't even give up CP/M when faced with the incresing popularity of the IBM PC until MS-DOS 3.2 came out. I continued to use the 6502 for control and communication tasks, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:40 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >without modification, in most cases, on a Z80,.by the time the 6502 > became > >popular. Now, I've always believed the 6502 at 1 MHz to compare > favorably with > >the 4 MHz Z80, but I used the Z80 running CP/M 2.2 to do useful work, > since it > >was a lot more trouble squeezing useful work out of a 6502 back in > '78-'79. > > > If anything I'd say CP/M was a factor more than any virtue of Z80. I say > that as > most "z80" code underused the Z80 as a fancy 8080. One may wonder if a > cp/m like (or better!) OS existed for 6502 such that it was portable or > easily > ported if things may have developed differently. > > Allison > > > > > From dancohoe at oxford.net Fri Dec 21 23:12:52 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Another Nile in North East Message-ID: <3C241653.19883772@oxford.net> There's another Nile with 4 large racks of drives in a scrapyard in Ottawa. I doesn't look like it's been there long. I should have spent more time checking it out. Likely Mike Kenzie could take a look at it and report back since I only get to Ottawa occasionally. Please see my post to follow with questions on the Pyramid 90x. Dan Cohoe From dancohoe at oxford.net Fri Dec 21 23:21:58 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Pyramid 90x Message-ID: <3C241875.E562C11D@oxford.net> I recently brought home a Pyramid 90x. The old owner who had run the machine at his work in the 80's bought it from his employer about 1990, but never got it set up at home. Apparently he decided to dump it a few months ago, but because of its size didn't get the job done. However, he did put all of the software and the documentation on the curb for the garbagemen at that time. Mike Kenzie and I got there just before he called the recyclers for the machine itself. What I need is a boot disk or other software and any documentation that might be out there. According to the old owner, it starts by loading the boot program off the 8" floppy before it can find the fixed disks. Does anyone have anything for this machine? thanks, Dan Cohoe From jss at subatomix.com Fri Dec 21 23:43:44 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <20011221234019.U98078-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > I did buy an SGI Indy for my fiancee. ;) She's getting very impatient > for it to arrive too. If your fiancee goes beyond mere tolerance and actually gets *impatient* for classic cmps, then you have probably done a good job at finding a fiancee! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 22 00:19:40 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <3C23A5DA.8020504@texoma.net> Message-ID: <20011222000804.D98078-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > I changed from Wife 1.0 who hated technology and computers to Wife 2.0 > who is an avid user [...] The change over from version 1.0 to 2.0 was > very expensive...in fact so expensive that I would hesitate to do it > again. I recently uninstalled Wife 1.0 also. I had about the easiest uninstall process there could be, but it still required much time, money, and the help of several technicians. There has been much re-writing of my requirements specifications for future versions. First of all, she would need to not find the above paragraph corny. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dancohoe at oxford.net Sat Dec 22 00:02:02 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011221143103.039883d0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3C2421DA.AE1CA1B9@oxford.net> Geoff Reed wrote: > > I don't suppose you have the schematics for a model 29? > > At 04:35 PM 12/21/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >If anyone ever needs any help with this programmer I've got the manuals > >including schematics. I downloaded a 100 page manual for the 29A from somewhere (I don't have any notes about its source) about 4 months ago. It includes schematics. Try Google for it. I suppose I could try to send it to you, its a pdf of 9.7 Mb. Dan Cohoe From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 22 00:06:17 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: [tfitch@esleeck.com: PDP11] In-Reply-To: <20011221141623.E376@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20011222000426.C98078-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > I have a PDP11 in two towers Oooh, I would like for the recipient to tell us what model this was. This could be a really nice find. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 22 02:45:10 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <47.15725307.2955a216@aol.com> In a message dated 12/22/01 Richard Erlacher writes: > If you want to insist that you can devise a task, any task at all, mind you, > that you can code in Z80 code to run at 2x the clock rate of a 6502, in, say, > <80 lines of assembler, that's strictly a computing task, just to leave I/O out > of it, or any I/O task that you think you can code in legitimate Z80 > instructions, providing a precise spec for the I/O task, then I'd certainly come > out and say you can't cook a legitimate one up that a 6502 can't accomplish in > less time, in the case of the computing task, and that, since the I/O task spec > limits the rate, the 6502 will be able to do it as well. I'd like to see a task > that meets those spec's How about a straight insertion bubble sort ? A completely useless task but it does take a defined number of data moves and compare operations. The array to be sorted could be say, 16-bit signed integer, 1k words long and in reverse order. (That should take a while for a 6502 to sort out). Chris From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Dec 22 03:34:10 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <021901c18a90$bce8ed70$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <003e01c18acb$cfc9fd40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> All this fighting over valid "computer"definitions ..... Alan Turing would turn in his grave ! Almost merry XMAS everybody so "Peace" Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: ajp166 To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:27 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > When you get over it... > > Talking about 20mhz 65C02s and other "fast" parts that didn't exist when > even the z180 (orginally 64180) was introduced is equally bogus. > > A Pentuim anything running a Z80 emulator is still emulation and not > native silicon. > > Now cut the crap. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:06 PM > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > >We went through all this a couple of years back under the same heading. > If the > >Z235980 at 234 THz is code compatible then, if I understand you > correctly, it IS > >a Z80, right? Even though the Z180 won't fit in a Z80 socket, you'd > sell it as > >a Z80 anyway, right? Even though it didn't even exist back when it > mattered, > >you still insist it's a Z80, right? > > > >My Pentium executes the Z80 code just fine at about 75x the speed of of > a Z80. > >Does that mean it's a Z-80? > > > >We're comparing CHIPS, not philosophical constructs. If it IS a Z80, or > Mostek > >3480, or something else EXACTLY a Z80, i.e. built under the license, > >pin-compatible, code-compatible, etc. then MAYBE it's germane to this > >discussion. No chip that isn't a pin-compatible substitute commonly > referred to > >as a Z80 back in the days when the Z80 mattered is germane to this > topic. If it > >won't plug into the socket of a Z80, FORGET IT, because it's not a Z80. > If > >that's too difficult for you, then please ask an adult why a 47-ohm > resistor > >isn't the same thing as a 75-ohm resistor. > > > >I'm sure glad you're not trying to sell parts any more, Allison. I'd > hate to > >have to argue with you that the choke you're trying to pitch isn't a > diode. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "ajp166" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:24 PM > >Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > > >> From: Richard Erlacher > >> > >> > >> >There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things > >> you've got > >> >to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately > deletes > >> the Z180, > >> >and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. > >> There are > >> > >> > >> Why? they are still z80 core and code compatable. While they add > things > >> like > >> serial IO, timers and MMU they are Z80, maybe more so than 65C02. > >> > >> Allison > >> > >> > >> > > > > > From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Dec 22 03:43:38 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <022201c18a92$d7fe2560$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <004401c18acd$2277f460$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I whole hartedly agree ! It's the systemsoftware and the application combined with a large userbase that determines succes. In the late '80 the Apple II(x) was nice but CP/M enabled more manufactorers with rather different hardware to tap the same potential user/clientbase. Even a (microsoft) Z80 card was made for the Apple II(x) platform while it already had a good CPU ????? Very much the same happened almost a decade (I'm talking about the breaktrough period here) later with the IBM-PC and its clones . And in that case designquality again was not the issue. ----- Original Message ----- From: ajp166 To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:40 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >without modification, in most cases, on a Z80,.by the time the 6502 > became > >popular. Now, I've always believed the 6502 at 1 MHz to compare > favorably with > >the 4 MHz Z80, but I used the Z80 running CP/M 2.2 to do useful work, > since it > >was a lot more trouble squeezing useful work out of a 6502 back in > '78-'79. > > > If anything I'd say CP/M was a factor more than any virtue of Z80. I say > that as > most "z80" code underused the Z80 as a fancy 8080. One may wonder if a > cp/m like (or better!) OS existed for 6502 such that it was portable or > easily > ported if things may have developed differently. > > Allison > > > > From Golemancd at aol.com Sat Dec 22 03:35:16 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: summit electronics Message-ID: <14e.6297737.2955add4@aol.com> anyone ever use this web site i cant get a response from them joe also this one http://www.summitelectronics.com http://www.ied.pios.com/ From mranalog at attbi.com Sat Dec 22 03:42:51 2001 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: D*A*T*A* I*/*O* M*a*n*u*a*l*s Message-ID: <3C24559A.B07C5C33@attbi.com> Last fall I suddenly, in the space of two week, received five requests for a D*A*T*A* I*/*O manual I mentioned on ClassicCmp back in 1999. Thank to help from Arlen Michaels, I got all of those requests filled. Now, I don't mind copying manuals, but after two years and one move the manual and the files where a pain to dig out of "the pile", and these were not list members. So, the ClassicCmp list archive is the reason for the "*"s. Now, one of the people that requested a manual sent me a couple of PDFs that I wondered if anyone here would like to host? I want to get them out there so everyone can use them, but I didn't want to keep getting requests years from now via the archives. 1. D*A*T*A* I*/*O* 2*9*a* U*n*i*v*e*r*s*a*l* P*r*o*g*r*a*m*m*e*r* 9*9*9*-*0*0*2*9* dated May 1982 102 pages (includes schematics) size - 10 MB 2. D*A*T*A* I*/*O* U*N*I*P*A*K* 2* dated 1984 76 pages (includes family, pin*out codes and schematics) size - 8 MB So, if ONE person would like to host these files, (and not mention my name) I can put them up on the web one at a time to be grabbed. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 22 04:00:06 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: D*A*T*A* I*/*O* M*a*n*u*a*l*s Message-ID: Try http://www.spies.com/arcade/TE/index.html for the 29A programmer. Lots of other goodies there too :-) Chris From mranalog at attbi.com Sat Dec 22 03:43:49 2001 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) Message-ID: <3C2455D5.BB242038@attbi.com> Matt wrote: > So what is everyone else on the list asking for? Computer related... of > course..... I'm getting a nice 100% mechanical analog. http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog/libra.htm It's coming by Big Brown sled as we speak. Reagards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 22 02:21:56 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:32 2005 Subject: Fwd: F/S: Atari Model CX-2600 and More Message-ID: I don't know what it's worth, but I'm posting it in case it's a decent deal. Doc From: "Bill" Newsgroups: houston.forsale,houston.wanted,austin.forsale, tx.forsale,misc.forsale.computer,misc.forsale-computers Subject: F/S: Atari Model CX-2600 and More Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:51:11 GMT Vintage 1978 Video Computer System by Atari Model CX-2600 Serial Number 8150545 Woodgrain 6-switch model Good Working Condition Includes: Original Box 8 games (4 with manuals) 4 Joysticks (2 work fine, 2 work some) 3 Paddle Wheel Sets (6 paddles - 3 work, 3 don't) AC Power Adapter TV RF Connector 1981 Atari Game Catalog Looks from e-Bay that it should bring $50-$70 Also, another entire 4-switch System if you want TWO! E-mail if interested. Pictures available. Available in Houston, TX Will ship if buyer pays shipping and insurance From djenner at earthlink.net Sat Dec 22 11:55:58 2001 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) References: <00f801a8ec10$251fefc0$3f912a3e@gw.cavorita.net> Message-ID: <3C24C92E.B8F97D4D@earthlink.net> Doesn't the DQ614 emulate the RL01/RL02? Can't you just use the RL device hander? Dave SP wrote: > > One Dilog DQ614 driver disk for RT-11. I have > one of these boards inoperative because I can't > configure it. > > Happy Christmas (if applicable) > > Greetings > > Sergio -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 22 13:19:32 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: <3C24C92E.B8F97D4D@earthlink.net> References: <00f801a8ec10$251fefc0$3f912a3e@gw.cavorita.net> Message-ID: You've got to have a MFM HD that it will work with, AND the software to partition/format the drive. No one seems to still have a copy of the software/docs. Zane >Doesn't the DQ614 emulate the RL01/RL02? >Can't you just use the RL device hander? > >Dave > >SP wrote: >> >> One Dilog DQ614 driver disk for RT-11. I have >> one of these boards inoperative because I can't >> configure it. >> >> Happy Christmas (if applicable) >> >> Greetings >> >> Sergio > >-- >David C. Jenner >djenner@earthlink.net -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Dec 22 09:28:59 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <007401c18a3a$193c4100$69721fd1@default> Message-ID: <3C24A6BB.6563F792@idirect.com> >John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Parts to repair my Micro PDP11 that was damaged during the move this > week. I need the base plate as I broke a piece about 8" long my 3" wide > off one side. The front panel was also damaged beyond repair. Anyone > having parts for sale contact me at jrkeys@concentric.net. Thanks in > advance. Which box? BA23? I may have a spare one already without the power supply and a few other pieces that could be further dismantled for the needed parts. From rachael_ at gmx.net Fri Dec 21 06:37:27 2001 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers) Message-ID: <693.755T1368T8173340rachael_@gmx.net> on 19-Dec-01 18:53:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I still have mine that I bought new. I use it to play CD+G discs and >not much else. Wish I had the MPEG cart - got some VCDs that would >be fun to play on it. I have an SX-1 adapter that turns a CD32 into >sort of an A1200, but I haven't had the time to check it out and put >it together. Does anyone have any docs for that? The jumpers are >labelled, so there's not much guesswork, but any docs are more than >I have now. http://www.amiga-hardware.com/sx-1.html, there is a PDF version of the docs there. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: Rachael_@gmx.net url: http://rachael.dyndns.org From hansp at aconit.org Sat Dec 22 07:20:25 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470662CB@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <3C248899.6000704@aconit.org> Carlini, Antonio wrote: >>Hey, cool! Any chance of getting a copy >>sent to me for my vanity file? >> > > http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opbooks.jsp?id=ns232110 Can of the page and the text available (for a while) at http://www.aconit.org/ns where are the buildings in the photo? -- hbp From foo at siconic.com Sat Dec 22 16:18:33 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: Sellam in the news... In-Reply-To: <3C248899.6000704@aconit.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > Can of the page and the text available (for a while) at > > http://www.aconit.org/ns > > where are the buildings in the photo? I am pretty sure those are the buildings of the soon-to-be defunct Excite@Home off of Highway 101 in Redwood City, California. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From enrico.badella at softstar.it Sat Dec 22 08:02:57 2001 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX References: <20011221201832.A8466@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3C249291.F4ADAC76@softstar.it> "William S ." wrote: > > I will be heading to a computer market tomorrow > in Amsterdam and am on the lookout for an > IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX type box. > I found quite a bit of technical information > at the IBM web site but was interested in a few > other details. > > Assuming I find one: > > 1. How important is it that it have a key? moderate, if it is locked you will have to crack the case. I did it on four 320H; the first one was tough to understand the best way to avoid breaking everything > 2. How important is it that it have media > or able to boot up? (Can I download and install > the appropriate version somewhere?) You can only run AIX on these; well at least last year when I got mine. I installed AIX 4.2.1; works decently if you don't use X; in that case if you are patient you can even use Netscape, I did it! > 3. What is an approximate cash value? I would say nothing! > 4. Are components easy to come by or should > I really take a look to make sure everything > is there? You can use PS/2 type keyboards and mice if you install AIX 4.x. If it comes with AIX 3.x you will need a real IBM keyboard. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From wilby98 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 08:40:02 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: <3C249291.F4ADAC76@softstar.it>; from enrico.badella@softstar.it on Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 03:02:57PM +0100 References: <20011221201832.A8466@xs4all.nl> <3C249291.F4ADAC76@softstar.it> Message-ID: <20011222154002.A25455@xs4all.nl> Well, the market was disappointing: It was dominated by PC stuff. Some vendors were selling old pentium boxes by the pallet full but nothing very interesting. I have only started looking right now so I will give it some time. Maybe after the holidays there will be more events. Any suggestions on where to look? I am in Amsterdam so I don't want to go too far away. Netherlands, Germany, Belgium are kinda local. Bill > > "William S ." wrote: > > > > I will be heading to a computer market tomorrow > > in Amsterdam and am on the lookout for an > > IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX type box. From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Dec 22 11:22:49 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX References: <20011221201832.A8466@xs4all.nl> <3C249291.F4ADAC76@softstar.it> <20011222154002.A25455@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <003101c18b0d$483ede80$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I kinda expected that already. There this organisation that organizes these PC-dumpdagen. You'll have to pay 17,50 Guilders (around $7,50) for entrance and it's PC-stuff mainly. A lot of "new" surplus from the last few years can be found. Some second-hand laptops (486 and up) and only occasionaly some vintage stuff out of a disrespectfull scrapbox and mostly not very facinating. I would have told you but ? only awoke after 13:00CEST so I read your reply-mail too late .... Alas..................... The FreeMarkets at 'Koninginnedag' (30-April) in Amsterdam and other major Dutch cities will offer you more interesting material than these "PC-DUMPDAGEN Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: William S . To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX > Well, the market was disappointing: It was dominated > by PC stuff. Some vendors were selling old pentium > boxes by the pallet full but nothing very interesting. > I have only started looking right now so I will > give it some time. Maybe after the holidays there > will be more events. Any suggestions on where to look? > I am in Amsterdam so I don't want to go too far away. > Netherlands, Germany, Belgium are kinda local. > > Bill > > > > > "William S ." wrote: > > > > > > I will be heading to a computer market tomorrow > > > in Amsterdam and am on the lookout for an > > > IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX type box. From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Dec 22 16:33:05 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011222163305.V21833@mrbill.net> On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 08:26:25PM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Let's not forget the holy grail of MCA RS/6K's, the RS/6000 390H. > Forever and ever, Amen. I've got one of these sitting under my desk at work; is it worth powering up? Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 22 08:47:46 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: M8650 async board problem In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: M8650 async board problem" (Dec 20, 19:36) References: Message-ID: <10112221447.ZM135@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've fixed it. On Dec 20, 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Pete wrote: > > Now I'm really puzzled. After spending the evening playing with my > > serial board, and armed with the pinouts this time, I still have an > > interrupt problem. > Be warned DEC can be confusing here. For example on the schematics, pin 8 > of the FF is shown as Q and pin 9 as Q/. But that's because the D input > on pin 12 has an inverting 'bubble'. And of course the Set and Reset pins > are therefore the other way round to what you'd expect. The confusion comes mostly from the Maintenance Manual. Thanks to David Gesswien for scanning the KL8-E printset, and Tony's description of the pinout labelling, I worked out what should be happening. > That's the problem, I think. DEC's data bus is active low. Or that's how > it appears to me. Indeed, and that's what I expected. The Handbook doesn't show the data bus signals as active low, whereas it does secifically show 'L' after other active-low signals. Nevertheless, like most other open-collector type busses, the Omnibus is active low. > > Should I just swap the connections to the SET and CLR, and Q and not-Q on > > the 7474? Or am I missing something? > > No (!). It worked once as it is now, so it can work again. Find out if > you can ever make the Q/ output of that FF low, and if not, why not. Are > you getting a pulse on the clock pin when you execute a KIE instruction? > What is the D pin doing? They all seemed to be doing something, just not necessarily the *right* something, when I first mailed the list. I wasn't sure it actually *had* worked properly; I wondered if there could be an ECO missing. Certainly it hadn't worked for a long time, and presumably that was why someone had cut the INT RQST L track a long time ago. However the fault, for those who're still reading, wasn't really the M8650 itself. There were two problems. At some point, I had unplugged the serial cable from the Berg connector, so there was noise on the serial input, which upset the diagnostics. The second problem was that the PSU +5V was down to about 4.5V, which isn't great for TTL. I'd checked the voltage when I reassembled the machine, but it didn't have a full complement of boards in it at that time, and the additional load made it droop due to several not-too-tight connections between PSU, power cables, and backplane. I've since cleaned them up extra carefully, and tightened the connections, and readjusted the PSU to give 4.9V on the front backplane and just over 5V on the rear one (the difference is due to different loads on the two parts). Now KIE with AC11=0 turns interrupts off, as does CAF and the CLEAR switch, and KIE with AC11=1 turns them on, and it passes all the diagnostics. Oh, and FOCAL 69 runs fine :-) Now onward to OS/8 and some RX01s... Thanks to everyone whose suggestions or websites helped me get this far: David, Kevin, Tony, Allison, Ethan, Doug, Zane, the other Kevin, and Nabil. And probably others I've forgotten. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From liste at artware.qc.ca Sat Dec 22 10:03:19 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: siemens nixdorf laser printer driver for pageprinter model m In-Reply-To: <13.3d3b54e.29551e80@aol.com> Message-ID: On 21-Dec-2001 ROCKYROADENNIS@aol.com wrote: > driver wanted > > > regards > > rockyroadennis@aol.com Has anyone LARTed this guy? -Philip From pechter at ureach.com Sat Dec 22 11:34:01 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: Pyramid 90x Message-ID: <200112221734.MAA20113@stage20.ureach.com> Here's what I know about the 90x... I haven't worked with Pyramid gear in about 9 years so I may be dropping a few bits. The machine loads COS the diagnostic software from an 80 track 96 tpi 5 1/4 disk. This contains the support software to download the necessary code into the machine to make it boot. The operating system is OS/x (a BSD 4.2 or 4.3 and SysV rel 2 or 3 hybrid). I'd love to get a machine running that around so I could figure out how they do the dual universe stuff so I could do it with FreeBSD. I used to teach OS/x Operations, Sys Admin, Comm and such for Pyramid and I also taught maintenance on their MIS series boxes. I had a 98x (IIRC) in the office which was similar to the 90x. Bill -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) ---- On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Dan Cohoe (dancohoe@oxford.net) wrote: > I recently brought home a Pyramid 90x. The old owner who had run the > machine at his work in the 80's bought it from his employer about 1990, > but never got it set up at home. > > Apparently he decided to dump it a few months ago, but because of its > size didn't get the job done. However, he did put all of the software > and the documentation on the curb for the garbagemen at that time. > > Mike Kenzie and I got there just before he called the recyclers for the > machine itself. > > What I need is a boot disk or other software and any documentation that > might be out there. According to the old owner, it starts by loading > the > boot program off the 8" floppy before it can find the fixed disks. > > Does anyone have anything for this machine? > > thanks, Dan Cohoe > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Dec 22 12:31:48 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: from Boatman on the River of Suck at "Dec 21, 1 11:20:20 pm" Message-ID: <200112221831.KAA08196@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Well, most of one anyway. I have a 7011-250 upgraded from a 7011-220, > > which means that I replaced literally everything but the case. So I have This reminds me. Is there any picture gallery of major RS/6K models? I might be getting two in a month or so for the cost of 'haul-it-away'. I used to in fact work on them as a user, but all I remember about their appearance was they were about 2' tall, had a bright yellow reset? button, a keylock, and a floppy drive. This tells me nothing, really :-) Google didn't seem to come up with anything. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Xerox never comes up with anything original. ------------------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 22 13:42:54 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: <200112221831.KAA08196@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > This reminds me. Is there any picture gallery of major RS/6K models? I > might be getting two in a month or so for the cost of 'haul-it-away'. I > used to in fact work on them as a user, but all I remember about their > appearance was they were about 2' tall, had a bright yellow reset? button, > a keylock, and a floppy drive. This tells me nothing, really :-) > Nice catch! Since you didn't mention extra-wide, I'm guessing that was an F-series 7025, or maybe one of the C-series. If it was about the size of a 2-drawer file-cabinet overall, then a 7013-series. The MCA RS6ks all had bright yellow resets, and keylocks. The best source I know for info is: http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/library/hardware_docs/ I don't know of a site with a comparative line-up, but the system docs above all have line-drawings of that model. Also setup, options and maintenace/repair info. Doc From wpointon at earthlink.net Sat Dec 22 14:27:49 2001 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (bill pointon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: <200112221831.KAA08196@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <5DDCC754-F71A-11D5-B7C6-003065ED7126@earthlink.net> ibms web site has specs user guides manuals and pdfs for many rs6k models -- most of which have at least a few rudimentary sketches of the systems --- billp On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 01:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Well, most of one anyway. I have a 7011-250 upgraded from a >>> 7011-220, >>> which means that I replaced literally everything but the case. So I >>> have > > This reminds me. Is there any picture gallery of major RS/6K models? I > might be getting two in a month or so for the cost of 'haul-it-away'. I > used to in fact work on them as a user, but all I remember about their > appearance was they were about 2' tall, had a bright yellow reset? > button, > a keylock, and a floppy drive. This tells me nothing, really :-) > > Google didn't seem to come up with anything. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * > ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Xerox never comes up with anything > original. ------------------------------- > From philpem at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 22 15:46:28 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:35 2005 Subject: Multitech/Acer Micro-Professor info WTD Message-ID: <002101c18b32$1f124040$8d177ad5@phoenix> Hi, I've managed to acquire a few Multitech Micro-Professor printers and I'd like to know just how the heck to use them. I've managed to partially decipher the schematic, but I can't get the *ing ROM to dump. I've got it hooked up to a 74HC4040 12-bit binary counter and a Microchip PIC16F874 microcontroller. The hex data the PIC snaffled from the ROM contains some instructions, but most of it is filled with zeroes. Anyone got a ROM dump from the "PRT-MPF" or "PRT-MPF-IP" boards? All my boards appear to be later-version ones, with Fujitsu 2732 EPROMs onboard. Also, has anyone got scanned copies of the MPF-IP (Micro-Professor mainboard) user's guide, monitor ROM dump, memory map, schematics, etc? I'd love to try my hand at writing an MPF emulator, but I don't have an MPF in my collection. I'd also like to get hold of one of each of the following: Synertek SYM-1 Rockwell AIM-65 (with printer) MOS KIM-1 Ideally, I'd also like the manuals, but if they're AWOL it doesn't matter too much - I'll just snaffle them from Rich Cini's webpage and print them off :-) BTW, the MPF printers seem to be quite plentiful - Greenweld UK appear to have plenty in stock. I've also got the Technical Reference for the Seiko Instruments MTP201-20B printer module that Multitech used on the MPF printer - just in case anyone's interested :-). There's only one minor thing about them - do NOT, under ANY circumstances, activate the head for longer than 1.5mS - it WILL burn out. Just out of interest, what sort of printer mech does the AIM-65 use? I'm not condoning the destruction of a perfectly good AIM-65 just to find this out, but I would like to know (in case anyone has a parts list for the AIM). Thanks again. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.btinternet.co.uk/ From foo at siconic.com Sat Dec 22 16:14:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: Fwd: F/S: Atari Model CX-2600 and More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The only thing it has going for it is the original box. On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > I don't know what it's worth, but I'm posting it in case it's a decent deal. > > Doc > > From: "Bill" > Newsgroups: houston.forsale,houston.wanted,austin.forsale, > tx.forsale,misc.forsale.computer,misc.forsale-computers > Subject: F/S: Atari Model CX-2600 and More > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:51:11 GMT > > Vintage 1978 Video Computer System by Atari > Model CX-2600 > Serial Number 8150545 > Woodgrain 6-switch model > Good Working Condition > Includes: > Original Box > 8 games (4 with manuals) > 4 Joysticks (2 work fine, 2 work some) > 3 Paddle Wheel Sets (6 paddles - 3 work, 3 don't) > AC Power Adapter > TV RF Connector > 1981 Atari Game Catalog > > Looks from e-Bay that it should bring $50-$70 > > Also, another entire 4-switch System if you want TWO! > > E-mail if interested. Pictures available. > Available in Houston, TX > Will ship if buyer pays shipping and insurance > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Dec 22 13:52:42 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: AN/UYKs Message-ID: I recently aquired a small number of military Data General clones called AN/UYK-19(V) and AN/UYK-64(V). These are Rolm and Loral machines. Does anyone have any information about them? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Dec 22 14:23:02 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: AN/UYKs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: William Donzelli wrote: > I recently aquired a small number of military Data General clones called > AN/UYK-19(V) and AN/UYK-64(V). These are Rolm and Loral machines. Does > anyone have any information about them? They're not actually DG clones. While they have instruction sets that are either largely compatible with or a superset of those found in some DG machines, the CPU architecture and implementation is uniquely ROLM (which was acquired by Loral from IBM as part of a Justice Department consent decree when IBM purchased ROLM for its Santa Clara telecom division). The AN/UYK-19 designation describes most members of the ROLM 16xx family -- it's applied to the 1602, 1664, 1650, 1602A and 1666. All of these machines have ISAs based on the Nova 800, but later versions include ROLM-specific extensions for hardware stacks and other things, all implemented in an incompatible fashion to DG's efforts. The AN/UYK-64(V) designation has been applied to the 1666B, although at one time it was also applied to a machine manufactured by Raytheon. ROLM manufacture Mil-Spec, not ruggedized, computers and peripherals, and manufactured a single model for all services. This "single model" approach created all sorts of packaging headaches, because the requirements of the Army, Navy and Air Force have almost no overlap. The Air Force, for example, wants machines that can operate from -500 to +60,000ft, unpressurized, and can go from overnight sub-zero cold soak to operational in less than 15 minutes; the Navy wants machines which can survive salt spray and depth charges while the Army worries about things like resistance to fugal growth. One of the more interesting consequences of some of these is the packaging of the machines in sealed ATR chassis. The enclosures are gasketed and filled with dry nitrogen; to eliminate heat each chip is mounted on a thermal frame which carries heat to the sides of the enclosure where (in some models) it is removed by external air/air heat exchangers. ROLM also manufactured peripherals, including disk drives. It was interesting watching the hammer test (which simulates a depth charge); a running drive was mounted to a fixed base and exercised while a large hammer on the end of a chain was raised parallel to the ceiling and then released to strike the drive -- which promptly tore off the mounts and skittered across the room, contained only by its cables -- all without throwing a single error on the exerciser. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 11:53 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: AN/UYKs aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Dec 22 15:03:07 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: AN/UYKs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > They're not actually DG clones. While they have instruction sets that > are either largely compatible with or a superset of those found in some > DG machines, the CPU architecture and implementation is uniquely ROLM So thay are Data General "mostlies". Will they run early Nova code, before Data General started to expand the architecture? > ROLM manufacture Mil-Spec, not ruggedized, computers and peripherals, > and manufactured a single model for all services. This "single model" > approach created all sorts of packaging headaches, because the > requirements of the Army, Navy and Air Force have almost no overlap. This is how it is supposed to be, when the AN/ system was laid down in 1942. It obviously does not work. > One of the more interesting consequences of some of these is > the packaging of the machines in sealed ATR chassis. The enclosures > are gasketed and filled with dry nitrogen; These machines do not have the gaskets or a fill port. The 1666B has massive heat sinks on the side, however. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Dec 22 16:20:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: AN/UYKs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, William Donzelli wrote: > I recently aquired a small number of military Data General clones > called AN/UYK-19(V) and AN/UYK-64(V). These are Rolm and Loral > machines. Does anyone have any information about them? No, but they sound interesting. What model are they clones of? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 22 14:18:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <47.15725307.2955a216@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c18b25$e593bd00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 1:45 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > In a message dated 12/22/01 Richard Erlacher writes: > > > If you want to insist that you can devise a task, any task at all, mind you, > > that you can code in Z80 code to run at 2x the clock rate of a 6502, in, > say, > > <80 lines of assembler, that's strictly a computing task, just to leave I/O > out > > of it, or any I/O task that you think you can code in legitimate Z80 > > instructions, providing a precise spec for the I/O task, then I'd certainly > come > > out and say you can't cook a legitimate one up that a 6502 can't accomplish > in > > less time, in the case of the computing task, and that, since the I/O task > spec > > limits the rate, the 6502 will be able to do it as well. I'd like to see a > task > > that meets those spec's > > How about a straight insertion bubble sort ? A completely useless task but it > does take a defined number of data moves and compare operations. The array > to be sorted could be say, 16-bit signed integer, 1k words long and in reverse > order. (That should take a while for a 6502 to sort out). > Yes, maybe something of that sort would be appropriate. Testing it on 8-bit, and then 16-bit quantities might be just the thing for testing the relative ability, in spite of architectural differences, of handling longer data. I'd suggest that larger records might be more appropriate, i.e. 32-byte records, etc. BTW, when I was in college, which I realize was some time ago, but, back then, Bubble Sort and Insertion Sort were two different algorithms ... I don't remember the differences, but will check my old texts, though they're in Sanskrit ... > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 22 14:20:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <021901c18a90$bce8ed70$62ed9a8d@ajp166> <003e01c18acb$cfc9fd40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <003301c18b26$0b192560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Often it's the semantics rather than the technical substance that cause the problems. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 2:34 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > All this fighting over valid "computer"definitions ..... > > Alan Turing would turn in his grave ! > > Almost merry XMAS everybody so "Peace" > > > Sipke de Wal > --------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ajp166 > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:27 AM > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > When you get over it... > > > > Talking about 20mhz 65C02s and other "fast" parts that didn't exist when > > even the z180 (orginally 64180) was introduced is equally bogus. > > > > A Pentuim anything running a Z80 emulator is still emulation and not > > native silicon. > > > > Now cut the crap. > > > > Allison > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Date: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:06 PM > > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > > > >We went through all this a couple of years back under the same heading. > > If the > > >Z235980 at 234 THz is code compatible then, if I understand you > > correctly, it IS > > >a Z80, right? Even though the Z180 won't fit in a Z80 socket, you'd > > sell it as > > >a Z80 anyway, right? Even though it didn't even exist back when it > > mattered, > > >you still insist it's a Z80, right? > > > > > >My Pentium executes the Z80 code just fine at about 75x the speed of of > > a Z80. > > >Does that mean it's a Z-80? > > > > > >We're comparing CHIPS, not philosophical constructs. If it IS a Z80, or > > Mostek > > >3480, or something else EXACTLY a Z80, i.e. built under the license, > > >pin-compatible, code-compatible, etc. then MAYBE it's germane to this > > >discussion. No chip that isn't a pin-compatible substitute commonly > > referred to > > >as a Z80 back in the days when the Z80 mattered is germane to this > > topic. If it > > >won't plug into the socket of a Z80, FORGET IT, because it's not a Z80. > > If > > >that's too difficult for you, then please ask an adult why a 47-ohm > > resistor > > >isn't the same thing as a 75-ohm resistor. > > > > > >I'm sure glad you're not trying to sell parts any more, Allison. I'd > > hate to > > >have to argue with you that the choke you're trying to pitch isn't a > > diode. > > > > > >Dick > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "ajp166" > > >To: > > >Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:24 PM > > >Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > > > > > > >> From: Richard Erlacher > > >> > > >> > > >> >There are lots of things that you could compare, but the first things > > >> you've got > > >> >to leave out are the ones that aren't a Z80, which immediately > > deletes > > >> the Z180, > > >> >and Z280. The Z80 is not around any more than the 6502 is around. > > >> There are > > >> > > >> > > >> Why? they are still z80 core and code compatable. While they add > > things > > >> like > > >> serial IO, timers and MMU they are Z80, maybe more so than 65C02. > > >> > > >> Allison > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 22 16:22:06 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: In a message dated 12/22/01 Chris Leyson writes: >> How about a straight insertion bubble sort ? A completely useless task but it >> does take a defined number of data moves and compare operations. The array >> to be sorted could be say, 16-bit signed integer, 1k words long and in reverse >> order. (That should take a while for a 6502 to sort out). In a reply dated 12/22/01 Richard Erlacher writes > Yes, maybe something of that sort would be appropriate. Testing it on 8-bit, > and then 16-bit quantities might be just the thing for testing the relative > ability, in spite of architectural differences, of handling longer data. I'd > suggest that larger records might be more appropriate, i.e. 32-byte records, > etc. OK 8-bit and 16-bit data is appropriate but would require separate algorithms. As for record length I would suggest at least 1k (1024) entries. (Eliminates base page cheating) > BTW, when I was in college, which I realize was some time ago, but, back then, > Bubble Sort and Insertion Sort were two different algorithms ... I don't > remember the differences, but will check my old texts, though they're in > Sanskrit ... Apologies, that should have read insertion sort OR bubble sort. Bubble sort runs through the array comparing adjacent values and swaps them whereas insertion sort moves an array member until it's in the right place. In terms of performance they are both slow algoritms. Here is the code from Numerical Recipies for an insertion sort (Fortran and C) Sorts an array arr(1:n) into ascending numerical order, by straight insertion. n is input; arr() is replaced on output by its sorted rearrangement. integer n real arr(n) integer i,j real a do j=2,n a=arr(j) do i=j-1,1,-1 if (arr(i).le.a) goto 10 arr(i+1)=arr(i) end do i=0 10 arr(i+1)=a end do { int i,j; float a; for (j=2;j<=n;j++) { a=arr[j]; i=j-1; while (i>0 && arr[i] > a ); arr[i+1] = arr[i]; i--; } arr[i=1]=a; } } Ignore the floats and reals for the data, they should be ints or chars for the purposes of our 6502/Z80 benchmark. Just for the hell of it, I will try this out in DSP56300 assembler. Chris From ncherry at Home.com Sat Dec 22 16:51:04 2001 From: ncherry at Home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: ROM preservation References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E016@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <15395.42235.754108.376839@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C250E58.EAABF9AE@home.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > If you're serious about programmable devices, Data I/O is the only > real choice in my opinion. The company's policies leaves a bit to be > desired...their software updates are prohibitively expensive, and it's > nearly impossible to use their earlier programmers without docs > because you need to translate chip part numbers to "device numbers" to > enter into the programmer...but other than that the boxes are great. I really like the Dataman S4, my friends use it pretty heavily in a very unfriendly environment. > eBay. Sure, everyone here poo-poos eBay, but face it...it's where you > can get anything you want, any time you want. I think everyone poo-poo's ebay for the stupidity bidding on 'rare' items. > > One called "Leaper 3" interests me because of its ability to copy one ROM to > > another without any kind of computer hookup, which I imagine might be > > useful, but I know nothing else about it. > > Ahh, a "real" device programmer. :-) I despise those dumb things that > can't do anything unless connected to a PeeCee running > Windows...totally useless to those of us who use real computers and > don't allow Windows boxes in our homes. I have a 15 year old EPROM burner (SmartZap) which I purchased in kit form. It really doesn't need the PC but I have to build the stupid modules. But it came with the 8031 source code (very nice), schematics and parts list. I'm not going to say anything about Windwos at this time. ;-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From UberTechnoid at Home.com Sat Dec 22 12:52:35 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: Unidentified 80-pin 32M modules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011222185321.PNHN3629.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> You might be able to get some Vaxstation simms cheap from Computer Parts Barn in Asheville, NC. The telephone # escapes me at the moment, but Ed Kirby (the proprietor) has a stack of VS4000/60's. I got mine there with 48mb onboard. Regards, Jeff In , on 12/21/01 at 09:42 PM, Doc Shipley said: >Hi. > The shop I buy a lot of custom stuff from gave me (not free, on spec) >some 80-pin RAM modules. Mel thought they would run in the VS4000/60, and >the form-factor is identical. They seat perfectly in the memory slots, >and the locator-pin holes are right. > Except the Vax won't boot at all with that memory installed. I've >looked around on the web, and can't identify them. > There are 2 paper labels: >a QC label with 2 lines, the first line varies, the second line is the >same on all: >UNI00-20533-064 >and a small label with what looks like a DEC/Compaq part number: >33522947-001 > Does anybody know what those are? and/or need them? > Doc -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From wpointon at earthlink.net Sat Dec 22 14:49:02 2001 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (bill pointon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: Unidentified 80-pin 32M modules In-Reply-To: <20011222185321.PNHN3629.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <54B6A6D6-F71D-11D5-B7C6-003065ED7126@earthlink.net> please post more info on this source -- i would also like to get a vax --- does this guy ship or have a web site ?? --- thanks -billp On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 01:52 PM, UberTechnoid@Home.com wrote: > You might be able to get some Vaxstation simms cheap from Computer Parts > Barn in Asheville, NC. > > The telephone # escapes me at the moment, but Ed Kirby (the proprietor) > has a stack of VS4000/60's. I got mine there with 48mb onboard. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > In , on > 12/21/01 > > at 09:42 PM, Doc Shipley said: > >> Hi. >> The shop I buy a lot of custom stuff from gave me (not free, on spec) >> some 80-pin RAM modules. Mel thought they would run in the VS4000/60, >> and >> the form-factor is identical. They seat perfectly in the memory slots, >> and the locator-pin holes are right. >> Except the Vax won't boot at all with that memory installed. I've >> looked around on the web, and can't identify them. >> There are 2 paper labels: > >> a QC label with 2 lines, the first line varies, the second line is the >> same on all: > >> UNI00-20533-064 > >> and a small label with what looks like a DEC/Compaq part number: > >> 33522947-001 > > >> Does anybody know what those are? and/or need them? > >> Doc > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From UberTechnoid at Home.com Sat Dec 22 12:54:23 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200112220429.fBM4TRQ01772@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011222185434.SHJC22452.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> It would boot off any cdrom pretty much. The problem came when I tried to do a restore from the cd's system image. Instant screenfull of greek. The RRD40 was the only drive I could install vms off of. Regards, Jeff In <200112220429.fBM4TRQ01772@narnia.int.dittman.net>, on 12/21/01 at 10:29 PM, Eric Dittman said: >> I've got a Vaxtation 4000/60 also! I can tell you that it is HIGHLY >> unlikely you will find a cdrom drive from which you can install VMS. Mine >> is running VMS 7.2 and NetBSD 1.5.2. After MUCH screwing around I finally >> just went out and got an RRD40 to install systems software. >I've not had much problems finding drives that will boot a 4000/60. I've >used an RRD42, a couple of Toshibas, and a couple of Plextors without any >problems. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From dittman at dittman.net Sat Dec 22 13:29:12 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20011222185434.SHJC22452.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@Home.com" at Dec 22, 2001 01:54:23 PM Message-ID: <200112221929.fBMJTCQ03417@narnia.int.dittman.net> > It would boot off any cdrom pretty much. The problem came when I tried to > do a restore from the cd's system image. Instant screenfull of greek. > The RRD40 was the only drive I could install vms off of. I used the different drives to install, too. Have you tried a Plextor? > In <200112220429.fBM4TRQ01772@narnia.int.dittman.net>, on 12/21/01 > at 10:29 PM, Eric Dittman said: > > >> I've got a Vaxtation 4000/60 also! I can tell you that it is HIGHLY > >> unlikely you will find a cdrom drive from which you can install VMS. Mine > >> is running VMS 7.2 and NetBSD 1.5.2. After MUCH screwing around I finally > >> just went out and got an RRD40 to install systems software. > > >I've not had much problems finding drives that will boot a 4000/60. I've > >used an RRD42, a couple of Toshibas, and a couple of Plextors without any > >problems. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 22 13:53:41 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200112221929.fBMJTCQ03417@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <20011222185434.SHJC22452.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@Home.com" at Dec 22, 2001 01:54:23 PM Message-ID: >> It would boot off any cdrom pretty much. The problem came when I tried to >> do a restore from the cd's system image. Instant screenfull of greek. >> The RRD40 was the only drive I could install vms off of. > >I used the different drives to install, too. Have you tried a Plextor? This really sounds like the problem I had installing OpenVMS on my VS4000/VLC. I've got a 4x external CD-ROM that I bought new years ago for my PowerBook 520c. Everything loves this CD-ROM (including lots of VMS systems), yet when I tried to install VMS on the VLC using it, I had nothing but troubles. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Dec 22 15:54:26 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: References: <20011222185434.SHJC22452.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <20011222215426.GA10303@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 11:53:41AM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> It would boot off any cdrom pretty much. The problem came when I tried to > >> do a restore from the cd's system image. Instant screenfull of greek. > >> The RRD40 was the only drive I could install vms off of. > > > >I used the different drives to install, too. Have you tried a Plextor? > > This really sounds like the problem I had installing OpenVMS on my > VS4000/VLC. I've got a 4x external CD-ROM that I bought new years ago for > my PowerBook 520c. Everything loves this CD-ROM (including lots of VMS > systems), yet when I tried to install VMS on the VLC using it, I had > nothing but troubles. Reminds me of my V3100 - quite some trouble installing VMS on it too. Reading the FAQs I guessed that any drive supporting 512 byte blocksize should do. So I tried several Plextor drives and a Toshiba (all set to 512 byte/block) - not much success, the VS3100 would start to boot and after a drop a screenful of error message on me. So I finally stole the CDROM (the one that came with the machine - I figure it was an RRD42 or something similar) from my trusty DECstation5000 and I worked first time. Regards, Alex. -- q: If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor? a: I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word. -- Harald Koenig asking Donald E. Knuth From UberTechnoid at Home.com Sat Dec 22 13:01:04 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011222190130.PDBF13165.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Good luck! I can't even find a PROM command manual for the thing. Come to mention it, DOES anyone have a prom command listing for the vs400/60 and/or the Sparcstation 4/330 (sun4)? Regards, Jeff In , on 12/21/01 at 08:52 PM, Doc said: >What I really lack is detailed documentation. I like diagrams & exploded >views a lot. > Doc -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From pat at purdueriots.com Sat Dec 22 14:57:03 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20011222190130.PDBF13165.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001 UberTechnoid@Home.com wrote: > Good luck! I can't even find a PROM command manual for the thing. Come > to mention it, DOES anyone have a prom command listing for the vs400/60 > and/or the Sparcstation 4/330 (sun4)? > > > Regards, > > Jeff > For Sun NVRAM info, check out http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/faq_nvram.html In general, obsolyte has a fair amount of good information about Sun systems. -- Pat From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 22 13:40:10 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20011222190130.PDBF13165.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: Message-ID: >Good luck! I can't even find a PROM command manual for the thing. Come >to mention it, DOES anyone have a prom command listing for the vs400/60 Have you tried typing 'help'? Unfortunatly I don't have a fiche reader at the moment, so I can't check the manuals. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 22 14:33:17 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Good luck! I can't even find a PROM command manual for the thing. Come > >to mention it, DOES anyone have a prom command listing for the vs400/60 > > Have you tried typing 'help'? Unfortunatly I don't have a fiche reader at > the moment, so I can't check the manuals. Oh, my gods. What a novel concept. And it even works!! Thanks. Doc > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 22 17:15:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: M8650 async board problem In-Reply-To: <10112221447.ZM135@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 22, 1 02:47:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1622 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011222/6fe6ccb7/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 22 19:22:12 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: M8650 async board problem In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: M8650 async board problem" (Dec 22, 23:15) References: Message-ID: <10112230122.ZM620@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 22, 23:15, Tony Duell wrote: > As the fault wasn't on the M8650, why did they cut that track? Did they > just never want interrupts? I've no idea. It wasn't cut by the previous owner; he doesn't know why either. > > However the fault, for those who're still reading, wasn't really the M8650 > > itself. There were two problems. At some point, I had unplugged the > > serial cable from the Berg connector, so there was noise on the serial > > input, which upset the diagnostics. The second problem was that the PSU > > And adding an 'antenna' (as in the serial cable) actually helps this? The proper cable has a jumper in the Berg connector to enable the EIA part of the circuit. It connects the 1489 output to the first gate in the receiver section. Without the jumper, the input to that gate floats, and hence picks up all sorts of noise. I wouldn't be surprised if I could pick Radio 2 up on that :-) > > +5V was down to about 4.5V, which isn't great for TTL. I'd checked the > > This has caught me so often when repairing DEC machines. The PSUs set up > fine on no-load and drop to 4V to 4.5V when loaded. And this causes the > most _amazing_ faults. Yes, and I should have known better. I realised something of the sort was amiss when I found that moving cards between front and rear backplanes made a difference. With everything in the front, the +5V went down to less than 4.3V. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hans at Huebner.ORG Sat Dec 22 17:20:14 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20011222215426.GA10303@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20011223000837.T70852-100000@mail.huebner.org> On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Reminds me of my V3100 - quite some trouble installing VMS on it too. > Reading the FAQs I guessed that any drive supporting 512 byte blocksize > should do. So I tried several Plextor drives and a Toshiba (all set to > 512 byte/block) - not much success, the VS3100 would start to boot and > after a drop a screenful of error message on me. A friend of mine came up with a good solution to this problem: If no bootable CDROM drive is available, use a second hard drive with enough space to accomodate a block-wise copy of the VMS installation CD (should be no more than 500 MB, but i have not checked lately). Use a Unix system to copy the VMS installation CD to this second HDD, then boot and install from that. -Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 22 17:28:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: Multitech/Acer Micro-Professor info WTD In-Reply-To: <002101c18b32$1f124040$8d177ad5@phoenix> from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 22, 1 09:46:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011222/a3e2cecb/attachment.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Dec 22 18:05:25 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: AN/UYKs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: William Donzelli wrote: > So thay are Data General "mostlies". Will they run early Nova code, > before Data General started to expand the architecture? Yes. The new instructions were created (in the same fashion as DG later did with the Eclipse) by using instructions that were effectively no-ops. Anything that was willing to run on an unmapped Nova 800 should be willing to run on the 16xx machines. Did you get programmer's consoles with any of these machines? All ROLM machines implemented the Nova I/O bus, albeit with very different physical characteristics. This produced an interesting problem with respect to one of the largest sales of the 16xx -- the GLCM/SLCM program at McDonnell/Douglas. The 1602 and 1666 (one of each, I believe) are used in the erector and launch systems; when the Nuclear Assurance folks found out that the Nova I/O bus lacked parity they freaked. > These machines do not have the gaskets or a fill port. The 1666B has > massive heat sinks on the side, however. ...which eventually evolved to enclosed plenums with forced air in the Hawk/32 (which implemented the MV instruction set). DesignData (www.designdata.com) ended up with most of the prints and spares for ROLM machines; they may be able to help with more detailed technical information. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Dec 22 19:42:43 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8/A limited function panel wiring? References: Message-ID: <3C253693.1010408@aurora.regenstrief.org> Actually, I had two such cables with one damaged headers each. So I made one good cable out of those. It worked and yes, it is absolutely required to have or else the thing won't power up at all. Thanks for the advice. -Gunther Tony Duell wrote: >>However, there are a few more issues to resolve first. The >>little 16-pole ribbon cable that has DIL chip-like plug on >>both ends that go into a chip-socket. That plug is bent and >>pins are broken off. Seems like that happnes all the time. >>Do I have to and if so how can I replace this? This cable >> > > Yes, you can replace it, but I'd probably re-make the cable.... > > The connector you need is called (at least over here) a 16 pin DIL IDC > header. But there are 2 different types -- the common one links pin1 > (numbering the pins as if it were an IC) to the second wire of the cable. > But I have once seen one that links pin 1 to the first wire of the cable. > > Obviously for a straight-through cable, DIL header to DIL header, it > doesn't normally matter which type you use provided both are the same. I > don't know which type DEC used on this cable (you might be able to check, > though), which is why I'd re-make the entire cable. > > You'd need 2 such DIL IDC headers and a suitable length of ribbon cable. > If you can't find 16 way cable, get the next widest one (20 way?) and tear > off the excess wires. > > Just crimp the headers onto the end of the cable, using a bench vice. To > prevent mangling the pins when doing this. stick the header into one of > those solderless plugblock 'breadboards' and squeeze the whole thing up > in the vice. That, BYW, is the only use for such breadboards IMHO :-). > > -tony > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 22 17:08:43 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: F/S: Atari Model CX-2600 and More Message-ID: Sellam Ismail wrote > The only thing it has going for it is the original box. Hmm... I sort of agree. It's a classic games machine just like the C64 or Sinclair Spectrum. OK it ain't a number crucher but it's still a classic and introduced a lot of people to computing (hopefully). Chris Leyson From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 22 17:15:39 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: <20011222163305.V21833@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 08:26:25PM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > Let's not forget the holy grail of MCA RS/6K's, the RS/6000 390H. > > Forever and ever, Amen. > > I've got one of these sitting under my desk at work; is it worth powering > up? Oh, yeah. Pretty quick for an old dude. Power2 processors (370 and previous were all Power first-generation) more memory slots - 4 cards instead of 2 or 1, MUCH faster/better scsi capability, and generally sweet. IIRC, IBM was already building PPC models when the 390 came out. Floating-point performance spanked the 43p right up till the 140 came out. if you don't want it, I'll come get it out of your way. Doc From vance at ikickass.org Sat Dec 22 19:13:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 08:26:25PM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > Let's not forget the holy grail of MCA RS/6K's, the RS/6000 390H. > > > Forever and ever, Amen. > > > > I've got one of these sitting under my desk at work; is it worth powering > > up? > > Oh, yeah. Pretty quick for an old dude. Power2 processors (370 and > previous were all Power first-generation) more memory slots - 4 cards > instead of 2 or 1, MUCH faster/better scsi capability, and generally > sweet. IIRC, IBM was already building PPC models when the 390 came out. > Floating-point performance spanked the 43p right up till the 140 came > out. > if you don't want it, I'll come get it out of your way. Hey! I got dibs! Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 22 19:49:47 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > if you don't want it, I'll come get it out of your way. > > Hey! I got dibs! No! I'm MUCH closer!!! Heh. Besides, yours is on the way. I've located all the pieces/parts, will test this week. Bonus: the short SCSI cable is still attached to the planar. Bummer: I suspect you'll have to bust off $6 for a new 3V coin. Doc From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Dec 22 19:14:04 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: References: <20011222163305.V21833@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20011222191404.A21833@mrbill.net> On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 05:15:39PM -0600, Doc wrote: > Oh, yeah. Pretty quick for an old dude. Power2 processors (370 and > previous were all Power first-generation) more memory slots - 4 cards > instead of 2 or 1, MUCH faster/better scsi capability, and generally > sweet. IIRC, IBM was already building PPC models when the 390 came out. > Floating-point performance spanked the 43p right up till the 140 came > out. > if you don't want it, I'll come get it out of your way. Unfortunately, see the "at work" above. I dont own it. 8-( Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 22 19:52:28 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: <20011222191404.A21833@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 05:15:39PM -0600, Doc wrote: > > Oh, yeah. Pretty quick for an old dude. Power2 processors (370 and > > previous were all Power first-generation) more memory slots - 4 cards > > instead of 2 or 1, MUCH faster/better scsi capability, and generally > > sweet. IIRC, IBM was already building PPC models when the 390 came out. > > Floating-point performance spanked the 43p right up till the 140 came > > out. > > if you don't want it, I'll come get it out of your way. > > Unfortunately, see the "at work" above. I dont own it. 8-( Then you have an excellent new toy. Email me off-list if you need help or parts. Doc From mhstein at usa.net Sat Dec 22 17:07:27 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: CoCo & MOS books Message-ID: <01C18B13.85202380@mse-d03> Three more books available: RS TRS-80 Color Computer Technical Reference Manual 26-3193, 69 pages RS TRS-80 MC-10 Micro Color Computer Service Manual 26-3011, 47 pages (Photocopy purchased from RS) MOS Technology MCS6500 Microcomputer Family Programming Manual, Jan '76, 8 1/2x11, approx. 200 pages. Will throw in Synertek 6500 & 6500B data sheets full of timing and cycle time info so you can join the fascinating (!) discussion presently raging among Dick, Allison & Ben. $4.95 ea plus postage, or BO, if anyone's interested. Meanwhile, the very best wishes of the season to everyone on the list; nice to have met all of you, virtually speaking, and especially the two I've had the pleasure of meeting in person. To those of you still patiently waiting to hear from me regarding items of interest, I haven't forgotten. Bear with me, and after the Xmas rush at the post office, I'll get back to you. And may the New Year be a more peaceful and less traumatic one than this one's been (although it doesn't look good...) Happy & fruitful collecting! mike From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 22 03:20:39 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: CoCo & MOS books References: <01C18B13.85202380@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3C245067.6F1554F2@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > > Three more books available: > > RS TRS-80 Color Computer Technical Reference Manual 26-3193, 69 pages > > RS TRS-80 MC-10 Micro Color Computer Service Manual 26-3011, 47 pages > (Photocopy purchased from RS) > > MOS Technology MCS6500 Microcomputer Family Programming Manual, Jan '76, > 8 1/2x11, approx. 200 pages. Will throw in Synertek 6500 & 6500B data > sheets full of timing and cycle time info so you can join the > fascinating (!) discussion presently raging among Dick, Allison & Ben. Sure now you tell me 10 years I last had a COCO. You would not believeb the old computers I have thrown out do to 1) lack of software. 2) lack of docs when they break. Mind you most of the computers have been $10 specials but they would have been nice to keep. Also a lot of data-books and old byte and kilabaud magazines that I would have liked to keep got too wet in storage. The 6809 is the cleanest cpu for opcodes and for timing too. And to add to the chaos the FPGA cpu's I am building have even another variation in memory access - a 6809 style access with good setup and hold characteristics. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Dec 22 17:06:02 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:36 2005 Subject: ROM preservation Message-ID: Neil Cherry writes: > I really like the Dataman S4, my friends use it pretty heavily in a > very unfriendly environment. When the battery goes flat so does the processor so to speak and you can't turn on the battery charge electronics ! You have to take the case apart and "hot wire" the battery. I've always thought of the Dataman as an overpriced toy. Chris Leyson From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 22 19:26:37 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: ROM preservation In-Reply-To: CLeyson@aol.com "Re: ROM preservation" (Dec 22, 18:06) References: Message-ID: <10112230126.ZM626@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 22, 18:06, CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Neil Cherry writes: > > > I really like the Dataman S4, my friends use it pretty heavily in a > > very unfriendly environment. > > When the battery goes flat so does the processor so to speak and you can't > turn on the battery charge electronics ! You have to take the case apart and > "hot wire" the battery. I've always thought of the Dataman as an overpriced > toy. I've used S4's quite a lot, and I seem to recall there's a way to deal with that without opening it up. I've certainly recharged them from totally flat/won't turn on. As for price, they're about the same as other comparble devices, at least in the UK. And they can do PALs GALs serial PROMs and other mildly exotic things. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 22 02:16:53 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: Message-ID: <3C244175.A66E0A52@jetnet.ab.ca> CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Here is the code from Numerical Recipies for an insertion sort (Fortran and C) > { > int i,j; > float a; > for (j=2;j<=n;j++) { > a=arr[j]; > i=j-1; > while (i>0 && arr[i] > a ); > arr[i+1] = arr[i]; > i--; > } > arr[i=1]=a; > } > } > Ignore the floats and reals for the data, they should be ints or chars for the > purposes of our 6502/Z80 benchmark. Do they have the "Small C Compiler" for the 6502? I know you can get a Z80 or 8080 compiler under CP/M. Note the version #1 does not have for or && instructions. Also BYTE years ago I think had some Small C benchmarks, any body know if there is a copy on the web? -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 22 19:25:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: Message-ID: <001101c18b50$bec1c8e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think a much larger number of records, and longer records would give a more thorough test. On a level playing field, the 6502 will always outrun the Z80 in strictly 8-bit quantities, and the Z80 may have a bit of an advantage with strictly 16-bit quantities. With, say 48 or 64-bit quantities, things begin to look different, and with 1K, or even 1/2-K 32-byte records, things look VERY different. A simple sort-in-place such as this would possibly be a reasonable test, but the special cases have to be neutralized by doing something that makes them insignificant. 16-bit values are an advantage to the processor with 16-bit registers, while 8-bit values are an advantage to the processor without them. Most data records, e.g. a customer name, however, being longer than that, might be more of a challenge, as well as being more realistic. The 8-bitter is favored with bytes, one with 16-bit registers has a distinct advantage with words, but neither of them has a substantial advantage if the records range in length between 1 and 32 bytes, with more or less random distribution of length. A larger array of data might be more convenient for measuring the relative performance of the CPU's, too, particularly if the comparison is closer than first anticipated. The relatively inefficient algorithm might actually provide a better test than a more efficient one, e.g. shell- or quick-sort. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:22 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > In a message dated 12/22/01 Chris Leyson writes: > >> How about a straight insertion bubble sort ? A completely useless task but > it > >> does take a defined number of data moves and compare operations. The array > >> to be sorted could be say, 16-bit signed integer, 1k words long and in > reverse > >> order. (That should take a while for a 6502 to sort out). > > In a reply dated 12/22/01 Richard Erlacher writes > > Yes, maybe something of that sort would be appropriate. Testing it on > 8-bit, > > and then 16-bit quantities might be just the thing for testing the relative > > ability, in spite of architectural differences, of handling longer data. > I'd > > suggest that larger records might be more appropriate, i.e. 32-byte records, > > etc. > > OK 8-bit and 16-bit data is appropriate but would require separate algorithms. > As for record length I would suggest at least 1k (1024) entries. (Eliminates > base page cheating) > > > BTW, when I was in college, which I realize was some time ago, but, back > then, > > Bubble Sort and Insertion Sort were two different algorithms ... I don't > > remember the differences, but will check my old texts, though they're in > > Sanskrit ... > > Apologies, that should have read insertion sort OR bubble sort. Bubble sort > runs through the array comparing adjacent values and swaps them whereas > insertion sort moves an array member until it's in the right place. In terms > of > performance they are both slow algoritms. > Yes, ... order n^2, IIRC. > > Here is the code from Numerical Recipies for an insertion sort (Fortran and C) > > Sorts an array arr(1:n) into ascending numerical order, by straight insertion. > n is input; arr() is replaced on output by its sorted rearrangement. > > integer n > real arr(n) > integer i,j > real a > do j=2,n > a=arr(j) > do i=j-1,1,-1 > if (arr(i).le.a) goto 10 > arr(i+1)=arr(i) > end do > i=0 > 10 arr(i+1)=a > end do > > { > int i,j; > float a; > for (j=2;j<=n;j++) { > a=arr[j]; > i=j-1; > while (i>0 && arr[i] > a ); > arr[i+1] = arr[i]; > i--; > } > arr[i=1]=a; > } > } > > Ignore the floats and reals for the data, they should be ints or chars for the > purposes of our 6502/Z80 benchmark. > > > Just for the hell of it, I will try this out in DSP56300 assembler. > > Chris > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 22 19:28:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: Ben Franchuk "Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?)" (Dec 22, 1:16) References: <3C244175.A66E0A52@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <10112230128.ZM631@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 22, 1:16, Ben Franchuk wrote: > CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > > Here is the code from Numerical Recipies for an insertion sort (Fortran and C) > > Do they have the "Small C Compiler" for the 6502? I know you can get a > Z80 or 8080 > compiler under CP/M. Note the version #1 does not have for or && > instructions. It wouldn't really be fair to use a compiler for the code to compare processors. You'd end up testing the relative merits of two compilers as much as testing the processors. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 22 19:27:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <3C244175.A66E0A52@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001b01c18b50$ebccda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Let's leave compilers out of the equation. Even the same small-C compiler, targeted at the two quite different CPU's potentially represent a significant skew in favor of one or another of the two. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 1:16 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > > Here is the code from Numerical Recipies for an insertion sort (Fortran and C) > > > { > > int i,j; > > float a; > > for (j=2;j<=n;j++) { > > a=arr[j]; > > i=j-1; > > while (i>0 && arr[i] > a ); > > arr[i+1] = arr[i]; > > i--; > > } > > arr[i=1]=a; > > } > > } > > Ignore the floats and reals for the data, they should be ints or chars for the > > purposes of our 6502/Z80 benchmark. > Do they have the "Small C Compiler" for the 6502? I know you can get a > Z80 or 8080 > compiler under CP/M. Note the version #1 does not have for or && > instructions. > Also BYTE years ago I think had some Small C benchmarks, any body know > if there > is a copy on the web? > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 22 05:44:23 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <3C244175.A66E0A52@jetnet.ab.ca> <001b01c18b50$ebccda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C247217.81F3A9AD@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Let's leave compilers out of the equation. Even the same small-C compiler, > targeted at the two quite different CPU's potentially represent a significant > skew in favor of one or another of the two. > > Dick How can you have skew? That is the whole idea of benchmark is to compare two machines. I would expect that the simple C that was given would be a good test when judged with other benchmarks. The 8080/Z80/8086 all generate the same poor code. This surprised me as shows how poor the 16 bit intel product was. The PDP-11 version was rather nice but it even has a few quirks. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html PS. Note all my FPGA machines generate nice 'Small C' code and have a resonably orthogonal instruction set. The well hacked Small C compiler self compiles under 24 KB. A similar compiler for the 8080 is about 48KB. From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 20 12:15:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: Speaking of PS/2s... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Dec22.215049est.119239@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > Are you sure the drive is ESDI? I think the model 70 shipped with an IDE >> drive. > >The IBM PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef contains a pinout of the hard >disk connector. The signals look to be almost a subset of the MCA >signals. It certainly doesn't look like an ESDI interface. From what I've seen, including the data at 'IBM P70 Project', the IBM DBA ESDI drives were only compatible with the models 55sx, and 70 desktops, and the P70 portable. It shows the drives capacity maxing out at 160MB. To quote Peter Wendt (those who read comp.sys.ibm.ps2 will know the name) from this page: "Don't forget that IDE was not very common in the late 80s ... and mostly ignored by IBM as "silly stuff" (what it is). They developed a lot ESDI-based stuff and treated HDs as ESDIs - not only because it is easier to use 64 heads / 64 sectors as basis and re-calculate the (lower) number of cylinders rather than dealing with odd sector / cylinder and head numbers. This is mostly done with the adapters hardware already - and the BIOS is "ESDI focussed" - the drives true geometry however totally differs in fact. "But what. The generic term "IDE Intelligent Drive Electronic" is used for most drives that have controller and harddisk mechanism in one physical unit - in contrast to the "classical design" with separate (unintelligent) harddisk and separate controller - disregarded, which encoding / translation or writing method they *technically* use. Therefore Carlyle is right in a way. One *could* nontheless define it more accurate and set the borders a bit tighter - and limiting the term "IDE" to the Conner / Seagate / WD creation invented for "small inexpensive desktop harddrives", which factically use an enhanced / expanded / watered ST-506 specification and RLL 2.7 or such stuff." -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Sat Dec 22 20:52:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: F/S: Atari Model CX-2600 and More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001 CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote > > > The only thing it has going for it is the original box. > > Hmm... I sort of agree. It's a classic games machine just like the C64 > or Sinclair Spectrum. OK it ain't a number crucher but it's still a > classic and introduced a lot of people to computing (hopefully). Definitely a classic, and maybe this machine with the box could fetch $50-$70. But otherwise, they are so common (and this is the 4-switch model, not the older 6-switch) that I wouldn't pay more than $15 for a complete system. So that's what I meant when I said the box is the only thing this had going for it :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cube1 at charter.net Fri Dec 21 08:48:32 2001 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: DEC Support & Service CDs (was PDP 11/34 Console & cards) In-Reply-To: <01a601c1812c$2741eaa0$6501010a@charp> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011221084152.03cbae40@cirithi> I'd be interested as well, and could make limited numbers of copies to pass on. However, you will probably find only recent manuals there. In the grand scheme of things, 852 manuals isn't really all that many. I have over 600 DEC manuals in my collection -- almost all before 1986. And I have only a tiny percentage of "what was" before that time. Even allowing for duplicates, I probably have over 500 different manuals. I also have a collection of DEC service fiche -- I may well have more than 800 manuals there alone. Jat At 10:38 PM 12/9/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Okay, so I dug a tad deeper into the DEC service CD-ROMs and found a lot >there. >In terms of manuals, the 2 CDs include no less than... 852 (!) PDF-encoded >manuals -- yes, that's 525 on one CD and the balance on the other. >Remember the VAX technical library room? Ours was covered with orange >manuals wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling.. Well I have the feeling that >these 2 disks contain all of those and then some. The manuals cover >everything from operator's manuals to CPU programmers reference, diagrams, >bulletins. DECserver, Alpha desktops, storage units. And that's just for >manuals. The disks also contain software libraries that include bios, >drivers, etc... >The index files alone take a fair bit of room. I thought for a minute that >I could post them here, but I gave up as soon as I saw the size of them. > >So.... If you are interested in the index files, email me. I will have a >run of disks made. NOT FOR SALE, only giveaways. I'll seed 5 or 10 of >those who want it, and they can take it from there and pay forward by >obliging other people. > >Cheers and all that sort of things, > >Frederic Charpentier > >P.S.: now, if only this kind of documentation archive existed for S-100 >systems... Almost makes you want to take up VAX systems. Then again, I'd >probably need to somewhat upgrade my home electrical switchbox. Or I could >move next to a nuclear power plant... > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@charter.net From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 22 21:13:01 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: F/S: Atari Model CX-2600 and More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 22 Dec 2001 CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > > Sellam Ismail wrote > > > > > The only thing it has going for it is the original box. > > > > Hmm... I sort of agree. It's a classic games machine just like the C64 > > or Sinclair Spectrum. OK it ain't a number crucher but it's still a > > classic and introduced a lot of people to computing (hopefully). > > Definitely a classic, and maybe this machine with the box could fetch > $50-$70. Only on e-bay ;) > But otherwise, they are so common (and this is the 4-switch model, not > the older 6-switch) that I wouldn't pay more than $15 for a complete > system. I often pick up various models of the 2600 console for as little as $10 or less with 6-10 games. Once I get time to get the whole lot of the consoles cleaned up, tested and possibly repaired, I'd be willing to trade a number of them if anyone here has interest. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 22 21:23:21 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: fiche format manuals (was: Re: DEC Support & Service CDs (was PDP 11/34 Console & cards)) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011221084152.03cbae40@cirithi> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I also have a collection of DEC service fiche -- I may well have more > than 800 manuals there alone. Sometime in Jan, I may be purchasing a fiche printing system. If I do, I'd be willing to print and scan these kinds of manuals if there is any interest. I have 100s and 100s of manuals and data sheets for some really old and unusual hardware that many people will have never seen (like old JC80 machines). Scanning an original manual might actually provide better resolution, but for the really hard to find manuals, scanned prints of fiche may be the only way to go. -Toth From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Dec 22 21:22:12 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: ROM preservation (Data I/O system 19) In-Reply-To: <3C2421DA.AE1CA1B9@oxford.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011221143103.039883d0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011222192159.00a4c1d0@mail.zipcon.net> My email box is big enough :) At 01:02 AM 12/22/01 -0500, you wrote: >Geoff Reed wrote: > > > > I don't suppose you have the schematics for a model 29? > > > > At 04:35 PM 12/21/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >If anyone ever needs any help with this programmer I've got the manuals > > >including schematics. > > >I downloaded a 100 page manual for the 29A from somewhere (I don't have >any notes about its source) about 4 months ago. It includes schematics. >Try Google for it. > >I suppose I could try to send it to you, its a pdf of 9.7 Mb. > >Dan Cohoe From jss at subatomix.com Sat Dec 22 23:45:16 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: fiche format manuals (was: Re: DEC Support & Service CDs (was PDP 11/34 Console & cards)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011222234346.R2863-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > I also have a collection of DEC service fiche -- I may well have more > > than 800 manuals there alone. > > Sometime in Jan, I may be purchasing a fiche printing system. I've accumulated a small bundle of DEC fiche. I'm not really sure what's in it. If you want to scan my stuff, just let me know when you want it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From CLeyson at aol.com Sun Dec 23 02:52:35 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: ROM preservation (Dataman S4) Message-ID: Apologies - my calling the S4 an overpriced toy was out of order. It is a very compact programmer and will program just about anything. I just never liked them - I could never manage to press the right buttons to get it to do what I wanted - and then the battery went flat :-( Just me being dumb. Chris From mranalog at attbi.com Sun Dec 23 04:27:36 2001 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: D*A*T*A* I*/*O* M*a*n*u*a*l*s Message-ID: <3C25B198.F727F9BE@attbi.com> CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Try http://www.spies.com/arcade/TE/index.html for the 29A programmer. > Lots of other goodies there too :-) Well DAMN. I thought I was supplying files not on the web yet. Thanks for the link. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From ernestls at attbi.com Sun Dec 23 10:24:19 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: Mike Stein In-Reply-To: <01C18B9F.BB542780@mse-d03> Message-ID: Hey, Mike. I've been trying to get ahold of you via email about your Apple II clone but your mail keeps bouncing back. Please contact me if you are still interested in selling those systems to me. Thanks. Ernest From mhstein at usa.net Sun Dec 23 09:51:07 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: CoCo & MOS books Message-ID: <01C18B9F.BF4ADD20@mse-d03> Sorry 'bout that ;( Yeah, I've wished for a time machine myself a few times recently; been kicking myself as well over some of the stuff I've tossed. mike ---------------Original Message------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 02:20:39 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk Subject: Re: CoCo & MOS books M H Stein wrote: > > Three more books available: > > RS TRS-80 Color Computer Technical Reference Manual 26-3193, 69 pages > > RS TRS-80 MC-10 Micro Color Computer Service Manual 26-3011, 47 pages > (Photocopy purchased from RS) > > MOS Technology MCS6500 Microcomputer Family Programming Manual, Jan '76, > 8 1/2x11, approx. 200 pages. Will throw in Synertek 6500 & 6500B data > sheets full of timing and cycle time info so you can join the > fascinating (!) discussion presently raging among Dick, Allison & Ben. Sure now you tell me 10 years I last had a COCO. You would not believeb the old computers I have thrown out do to 1) lack of software. 2) lack of docs when they break. Mind you most of the computers have been $10 specials but they would have been nice to keep. Also a lot of data-books and old byte and kilabaud magazines that I would have liked to keep got too wet in storage. The 6809 is the cleanest cpu for opcodes and for timing too. And to add to the chaos the FPGA cpu's I am building have even another variation in memory access - a 6809 style access with good setup and hold characteristics. - -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mhstein at usa.net Sun Dec 23 09:50:42 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: Multitech/Acer Micro-Professor info WTD Message-ID: <01C18B9F.BB542780@mse-d03> Re AIM printers: I assume you're talking about the 20 col printer and not the -40; I've got a pile of these (not necessarily working, alas), but no markings on them other than Rockwell's. FWIW, the same printer was used by National Semi in at least one of their printing calcs, and I used to snap those up at junk shops for $5.00, a welcome discovery after having paid $150 ea for them from Rockwell & Dynatem. The 40 col model (very similar construction) was made in Japan, FWIW. Maybe there's still a helpful old-timer at Dynatem who could help you out; also, I assume you know that the AIM was disguised as a Siemens PC100 on the other side of the pond. mike --------Original Message-------------- From: "Philip Pemberton" Subject: Multitech/Acer Micro-Professor info WTD Just out of interest, what sort of printer mech does the AIM-65 use? I'm not condoning the destruction of a perfectly good AIM-65 just to find this out, but I would like to know (in case anyone has a parts list for the AIM). Thanks again. - -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.btinternet.co.uk/ From vaxman at earthlink.net Sun Dec 23 12:48:38 2001 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! Message-ID: Bet y'all missed me :) Got the new Covad/Earthlink DSL hooked up finally... The firewall may actually be working too... Need to check it out... Anything of great import happen in the last two months (since 31-oct-01?) Laters, clint From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 23 04:53:22 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: M8650 async board problem In-Reply-To: pete@mindy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: M8650 async board problem" (Dec 23, 1:22) References: <10112230122.ZM620@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10112231053.ZM934@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 23, 1:22, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 22, 23:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > > As the fault wasn't on the M8650, why did they cut that track? Did they > > just never want interrupts? > > I've no idea. It wasn't cut by the previous owner; he doesn't know why > either. I've just realised something. The machine was used in a real-time process control system in the pharmaceutical industry. If that system was designed as a "hard" real-time system, then interrupts would be verboten, as then it would be impossible to calculate the worst-case execution times for scheduling routines. I guess this was built not very long after the Flixborough disaster in 1974 -- an event still used as an example in safety-critical systems design courses. My guess is the designers just eliminated all the unlikely problems they could, as well as the likely ones. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 23 06:21:02 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: Ben Franchuk "Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?)" (Dec 22, 4:44) References: <3C244175.A66E0A52@jetnet.ab.ca> <001b01c18b50$ebccda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C247217.81F3A9AD@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <10112231221.ZM1003@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 22, 4:44, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Let's leave compilers out of the equation. Even the same small-C compiler, > > targeted at the two quite different CPU's potentially represent a significant > > skew in favor of one or another of the two. > > > How can you have skew? That is the whole idea of benchmark is to > compare > two machines. I would expect that the simple C that was given would be a > good test > when judged with other benchmarks. For a comparison of two development systems, maybe, but not for a simple comparison of processors. You'll find that the compilers were written differently for the different processors. As likely as not, one will be better at certain things than another, or better on one processor. For example, gcc does fairly poorly on a PDP-11 or an SGI machine (SGI's cc will run rings round gcc for MIPS in almost every respect) yet works very well on an x86 achitecture, because that's where the major development was done. If you take a compiler written for one chip, say a Z80, a straight port will produce poor code for a 6502 because you have to think about things in a different way, and this will be more apparent with a simple compiler than sophisticated one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 23 14:45:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <3C244175.A66E0A52@jetnet.ab.ca> <001b01c18b50$ebccda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C247217.81F3A9AD@jetnet.ab.ca> <10112231221.ZM1003@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001a01c18bf2$c17807a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> For some time I've occasionally contemplated a translator from 8080 syntax to 6502, just for mental masturbation. I don't consider the Z80 a worthy target for such translation/emulation because half its internal resources are only accessible via the most extreme of artifice. (It has a redundant register set, at considerable cost, yet doesn't seem to have any way of telling the running software which of the two sets it's using.) It wouldn't be terribly difficult to assign register space to the 6502 zero page in locations corresponding with some not used by CP/M on the 8080. That might prove an interesting way to cook up a useable OS for the 6502. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 5:21 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > On Dec 22, 4:44, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > Let's leave compilers out of the equation. Even the same small-C > compiler, > > > targeted at the two quite different CPU's potentially represent a > significant > > > skew in favor of one or another of the two. > > > > > How can you have skew? That is the whole idea of benchmark is to > > compare > > two machines. I would expect that the simple C that was given would be a > > good test > > when judged with other benchmarks. > > For a comparison of two development systems, maybe, but not for a simple > comparison of processors. You'll find that the compilers were written > differently for the different processors. As likely as not, one will be > better at certain things than another, or better on one processor. > > For example, gcc does fairly poorly on a PDP-11 or an SGI machine (SGI's cc > will run rings round gcc for MIPS in almost every respect) yet works very > well on an x86 achitecture, because that's where the major development was > done. If you take a compiler written for one chip, say a Z80, a straight > port will produce poor code for a 6502 because you have to think about > things in a different way, and this will be more apparent with a simple > compiler than sophisticated one. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 23 07:02:32 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <003801c18bb3$e3be2220$62ed9a8d@ajp166> The most common reason for not using an hll is that unless the compiler is well written and optimizing you see the compiler not the cpu. Small C was a good language but the result was often so poor that even a small amount of hand optimization was easy to accomplish. For a cpu like 6502, this tended to be more true as many of the things the C language likes just dont map to cpu instruction set that directly. Same was true for most of the Z80 versions of small C as most treated it as an 8080 and didnt use the more useful instrucitons. As tot he PDP-11 that was the consumate C machine at the instruction set level. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, December 22, 2001 9:40 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) >Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> Let's leave compilers out of the equation. Even the same small-C compiler, >> targeted at the two quite different CPU's potentially represent a significant >> skew in favor of one or another of the two. >> >> Dick >How can you have skew? That is the whole idea of benchmark is to >compare >two machines. I would expect that the simple C that was given would be a >good test >when judged with other benchmarks. The 8080/Z80/8086 all generate the >same poor >code. This surprised me as shows how poor the 16 bit intel product was. >The PDP-11 >version was rather nice but it even has a few quirks. >-- >Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html >PS. Note all my FPGA machines generate nice 'Small C' code and have a >resonably orthogonal instruction set. The well hacked Small C compiler >self compiles under >24 KB. A similar compiler for the 8080 is about 48KB. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 23 12:14:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <003801c18bb3$e3be2220$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <003601c18bdd$b13bbcc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 6:02 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > The most common reason for not using an hll is that unless the compiler > is well written and optimizing you see the compiler not the cpu. > That's exactly the thing that bothers me about HLL's for comparison purposes. > > Small C was a good language but the result was often so poor that > even a small amount of hand optimization was easy to accomplish. > For a cpu like 6502, this tended to be more true as many of the > things the C language likes just dont map to cpu instruction set > that directly. Same was true for most of the Z80 versions of > small C as most treated it as an 8080 and didnt use the more > useful instrucitons. > The 6502 had registers that would function as pointers, but only as short ones, which bothers guys who write compilers, but indexed indirection, along the lines that PDP-11's used, was possible with it via zero-page. I don't know that anyone ever capitalized on that in a 'C' compiler. One problem, of course, was that there really never was a serious operating system that could be used by a compiler, so no compiler-generation effort could rely on an OS for support in the "usual" ways. > > As to the PDP-11, that was the consumate C machine at the > instruction set level. > No argument about that! > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, December 22, 2001 9:40 PM > Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> > >> Let's leave compilers out of the equation. Even the same small-C > compiler, > >> targeted at the two quite different CPU's potentially represent a > significant > >> skew in favor of one or another of the two. > >> > >> Dick > >How can you have skew? That is the whole idea of benchmark is to > >compare > >two machines. I would expect that the simple C that was given would be a > >good test > >when judged with other benchmarks. The 8080/Z80/8086 all generate the > >same poor > >code. This surprised me as shows how poor the 16 bit intel product was. > >The PDP-11 > >version was rather nice but it even has a few quirks. > >-- > >Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > >PS. Note all my FPGA machines generate nice 'Small C' code and have a > >resonably orthogonal instruction set. The well hacked Small C compiler > >self compiles under > >24 KB. A similar compiler for the 8080 is about 48KB. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Dec 23 11:58:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <3C244175.A66E0A52@jetnet.ab.ca> <001b01c18b50$ebccda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3C247217.81F3A9AD@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002001c18bdb$713ce740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 4:44 AM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Let's leave compilers out of the equation. Even the same small-C compiler, > > targeted at the two quite different CPU's potentially represent a significant > > skew in favor of one or another of the two. > > > > Dick > > How can you have skew? That is the whole idea of benchmark is to > compare two machines. There are lots of ways in which to compare two machines. In one case you compare how quickly or easily a particular task can be accomplished on that particular pair of machines. Comparing the 6502 with the Z80 is extremely difficult in this case because the quality and character of contemporaneous software was so different. Tools and applications for the Z80, particularly under CP/M were quite solid and professional in nature, while the "similar" commercial products for the 6502 were limited, largely, by market forces, not the architecture, to the Apple][, quite lame by comparison. The Basic interpreter, for example, is a case you might want to examine. If you were a real glutton for punishment, you could, point-by-point compare/contrast the two and would find that the product for the 8080 was quite "serious" and "professional" in character, the one for the 6502 was less so, being more or less skewed toward the toy market. Later versions for the 6502 were similarly skewed, since the 6502 was really never used in a commercial machine intended for computing use on the U.S. market. The early Commodore machines might have been an example. I did see a "PET" machine that had a real keyboard on it in a magazine ad, though I never saw one "in the flesh." The European version of that model was the only 6502-based machine that I ever knew to support 8" double-density diskettes, though I didn't see that working "in the flesh" either. I did cash the check I got from the folks who sold the adapter, however. > I would expect that the simple C that was given would be a > good test when judged with other benchmarks. If you can come up with a 'C' compiler of the '70's that you believe generated comparably good/poor machine code for both CPU's from the same source syntax I'd be really interested to know about it. > The 8080/Z80/8086 I don't find it appropriate to lump the 8086 family together with the 8080 and Z80. The former is a pitifully poor architecture, designed by the marketing department and not by competent engineers, as a quick solution to the problems Intel was faced with in the late '70's, since their architecture was structurally limited while their principal competitor's product line was not. The 8080 was, for its time, a solid and well-thought-out architecture, designed for maximal effectiveness within the confines of the field of applications for which it was designed. The Z80 was yet another step in that direction, though it lacked some simple but vital features the lack of which made its enhanced features much more difficult to use than they might have been. > all generate the same poor code. The CPU's don't generate the code. Some programmer somwhere takes his best shot at a code generator, and the rest of us have to choose whether to use it or not. During the timespan over which I was using 6502's and Z80's, I didn't ever come across a 'C' compiler for the 6502. AFAIK, there's only one of them around now that amounts to anything and even that's somewhat of a mystery. There's never been a native development environment of the class, even of CP/M which, though quite functional, was less than most folks wanted. It was quite a bit more than anything I ever encountered for the 6502, however, which explains why I used CP/M. > This surprised me as shows how poor the 16 bit intel product was. Perhaps that's because the Intel product was only partly a 16-bit product, owing much of its benefit and many of its limitations to its predecessors. > The PDP-11 version was rather nice but it even has a few quirks. > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > PS. Note all my FPGA machines generate nice 'Small C' code and have a > resonably orthogonal instruction set. The well hacked Small C compiler > self compiles under > 24 KB. A similar compiler for the 8080 > is about 48KB. > From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sun Dec 23 07:21:58 2001 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: Fluke, GRID and Daisy Message-ID: <20011223132111.JYZP14593.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> It's funny how once you find out about a certain machine they then seem to show up everywhere. Found a Fluke 900* yesterday they are asking $25 (Cdn) for it, looked like it was missing attachments. Picked up a GRID 1500 laptop it came with 6 batteries, external 3.5, 5.25 and tape as well as a vga adapter. It's missing a battery charger, and when it boots mentions a config error. The Daisy was sitting in the back, they had it put with office furniture. It looks like a desk but with a closer look, there is a 8" floppy drive on the side and at the base all of the usual connectors. From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Dec 23 08:56:42 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E References: Message-ID: <3C25F0AA.E4122930@tiac.net> Wow, you got an amazing deal! I've been looking for a spare 2113 for a while now, as I have a custom instrument that is based on a HP 2113 processor. I would have easily paid 10 times that price! As for operating systems and software, you have at least two options... First, the easy path... Simply run HP's stand-alone basic. You can download a binary image of the media, originally a paper tape, from Jeff's HP2100 Archives. Now you need a way to get that data into the machine, and a console port. You will also need a 'Buffered TTY Register' board to serve as a console serial port. Later HP machines (like the 2113) often use the BACI (Buffered Async Communications Adapter) board, which is NOT compatible with HP Basic. Depending on what interface boards you have, we may be able to work out a deal. I usually boot HP Basic from a custom tape reader emulator that holds the binary image of the paper tape in EPROM. This reader-emulator connects to a HP 'Microcircuit Interface' board, and the software is loaded using the built-in boot loader ROMs in the HP 2113. You simply power up, set a few switches on the front panel, then press IBL, Preset, then IBL once again, and the loader code is stored in memory. Pressing RUN at this point will load the tape image into memory, and away you go. Now then the hard way... HP's operating system's for these machines are pretty nasty. The 'top of the line' OS was RTE-6VM, and the more common OS was RTE-IVB (RTE 4B). These operating systems were unlike anything I've ever seen, cryptic, obtuse, and fairly painful to use. As an example, to run a compiled program, you had to link the code into the OS itself. The hardest part here, is getting a useable disk system. RTE-IVB uses what were called MAC interface disks, while RTE-6VM also supported ICD drives, using a specialized version of the IEEE-488 interface. Supporting the original operating systems is a lot of work, and I strongly reccomend you run HP Basic. Now, what exactly do you have? The HP 2113 was one of the last machines in a long series going back to 1968. Your 2113 is binary code compatible with the original HP 2116, the first HP product to use the then new-fangeled IC chips. HP2113's were still selling for $13,000+ in 1983, and are exceptionally well-built. It has no stack, but executes subroutines much like a PDP-8. In addition to the original HP 2116 instructions, the HP 2113 also adds several new registers and instructions, as well as a virtual memory scheme that can address 1 megaword of solid-state memory. Oh yes, many of the original interface boards from a 1968 HP 2116 will plug right into your 2113 and work perfectly (but not the cool oscilloscope point-plot display board...). I have a MS-DOS based version of the HP assembler, so you can assemble small programs on your PC. I am also working on a program for the PC that will send the paper tape image from the assembler into the HP via my tape reader emulator. Once this is working, it should be possible to boot the HP directly from a file on the PC's disk. Take a careful inventory of the interface boards you have, and we can see if there is something in there you can use to get your machine running HP Basic. (many generic HP interface boards can be made to serve as psudo-tape reader interfaces). Steve Robertson wrote: > Took deliveery of my "New" HP 1000/E last week and yes Virgina, there really > is a Santa Clause. For those who would bash eBay, here's proof that there > are good deals to be had. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1294677875 > > Obviously there are no disks or OS but otherwise, the computer seems to be > complete. Considering it's age, it's in remarkably good condition. All the > cards aand covers are in place, very clean inside. Cool! > > I powered the thing up and it seems to work. I have absolutely no experience > with these machines so, I really can't say for sure. When powered up, some > of the lights do come on and I can select different registers and toggle > data in and out. > > So... What's next? > > I'd really like to see it do "something" even if it's only blinking a coule > of the lights. If someone could provide a SIMPLE routine to make it do that, > I'd be grateful. Once again, I don't have any exposure with this thing so, > I'll need pretty explicit instructions. > > I'm not familiar with all the cards but, from what I can tell, there is no > ASYNC card in the box. I think it was originally used with a HPIB terminal. > I do have some HP terminals but, none of them have HPIB interfaces. If > anyone has a ASYNC card the'd be willing to part with, please let me know. > > I'm not sure what the licensing issues are but, would really like to find a > OS for the system. I've got plenty of HPIB disks, tapes drives, etc... so > copying the OS shouldn't be an issue. If anyone can provide a reasonable > solution to getting the OS, once again, I'd appreciate it. > > Thanks for the help and Happy holidays to all, > > SteveRob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 10:38:43 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E Message-ID: First, I'd like to say thanks to everyone that has provided help. The insight provided by this group is invaluable in getting a system like this going :-) I did a quick inventory of the cards in the rear of the machine plus a second 1000 carcass that I have and this is what I found: * (2) Time base generator * (3) Microcircuit A-2222 / 12566-60032 cards * (1) 55613 GMR-1 - I have no idea what this is. * (1) HS Terminal - 12531-80025 * (1) INTF - 1337 * (3) Natel 2101 R/D Converter I understand the "Time Generator" card but, really don't know the functions of the other cards. I know some of this info may be on the spies/~AEK site but, haven't had time to filter through those docs. The machine also has: * (1) 64K HSM 12747H - High speed memory * (1) MEM CONTR 2102B * (1) M.E.M 12731 I'm assuming these are just extended memory cards and controllers. At this point, the HP basic route certainly seems like the most doable. I did see those images on Jeff's site but, was pretty clueless as to how to get the data into the machine. Bob: exactly what is involved in your "Paper Tape Emulator". From the functional description, it doesn't sound all that complicated. This may be something, I could hack together. As a side note: I know where there are two more 1000/E that I could get for about $200 each. While I haven't inventoried them, each of those systems is a FULL rack of goodies including disk drives, X/Y data monitors, A/D converters, etc... One of the systems has a combo tape/hard drive and could possibly still have the OS installed. The other one has dual 8" floppies. I'm running out of room for rack sized systems but, those probably deserve a good home (mine). Happy holidays to all, SteveRob >From: Bob Shannon >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: HP 1000/E >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 09:56:42 -0500 > >Wow, you got an amazing deal! > >I've been looking for a spare 2113 for a while now, as I have a custom >instrument that is based on a HP 2113 processor. I would have easily paid >10 >times that price! > >As for operating systems and software, you have at least two options... > >First, the easy path... > >Simply run HP's stand-alone basic. You can download a binary image of the >media, originally a paper tape, from Jeff's HP2100 Archives. Now you need >a way >to get >that data into the machine, and a console port. > >You will also need a 'Buffered TTY Register' board to serve as a console >serial >port. Later HP machines (like the 2113) often use the BACI (Buffered Async >Communications Adapter) board, which is NOT compatible with HP Basic. > >Depending on what interface boards you have, we may be able to work out a >deal. > >I usually boot HP Basic from a custom tape reader emulator that holds the >binary >image of the paper tape in EPROM. This reader-emulator connects to a HP >'Microcircuit Interface' board, and the software is loaded using the >built-in >boot loader ROMs in the HP 2113. You simply power up, set a few switches >on the >front panel, then press IBL, Preset, then IBL once again, and the loader >code is >stored in memory. Pressing RUN at this point will load the tape image into >memory, and away you go. > >Now then the hard way... > >HP's operating system's for these machines are pretty nasty. The 'top of >the >line' OS was RTE-6VM, and the more common OS was RTE-IVB (RTE 4B). These >operating systems were unlike anything I've ever seen, cryptic, obtuse, and >fairly painful to use. As an example, to run a compiled program, you had >to >link the code into the OS itself. > >The hardest part here, is getting a useable disk system. RTE-IVB uses what >were >called MAC interface disks, while RTE-6VM also supported ICD drives, using >a >specialized version of the IEEE-488 interface. > >Supporting the original operating systems is a lot of work, and I strongly >reccomend you run HP Basic. > >Now, what exactly do you have? > >The HP 2113 was one of the last machines in a long series going back to >1968. >Your 2113 is binary code compatible with the original HP 2116, the first HP >product to use the then new-fangeled IC chips. HP2113's were still selling >for >$13,000+ in 1983, and are exceptionally well-built. > >It has no stack, but executes subroutines much like a PDP-8. In addition >to the >original HP 2116 instructions, the HP 2113 also adds several new registers >and >instructions, as well as a virtual memory scheme that can address 1 >megaword of >solid-state memory. > >Oh yes, many of the original interface boards from a 1968 HP 2116 will plug >right into your 2113 and work perfectly (but not the cool oscilloscope >point-plot display board...). > >I have a MS-DOS based version of the HP assembler, so you can assemble >small >programs on your PC. I am also working on a program for the PC that will >send >the paper tape image from the assembler into the HP via my tape reader >emulator. Once this is working, it should be possible to boot the HP >directly >from a file on the PC's disk. > >Take a careful inventory of the interface boards you have, and we can see >if >there is something in there you can use to get your machine running HP >Basic. >(many generic HP interface boards can be made to serve as psudo-tape reader >interfaces). _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From celt at chisp.net Sun Dec 23 10:40:18 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. References: <200112221831.KAA08196@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3C2608F2.1040809@chisp.net> > > This reminds me. Is there any picture gallery of major RS/6K models? You might try: http://www.exquip.com/products/ibm/ Mike From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 23 11:55:08 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: X10 revived - looking for modules, switches, etc Message-ID: Anyone have a stash of cheap excess modules, switches, etc for X10/BSR/etc. I know people mentioned sometime ago that they have bought boxes full of stuff for a few bucks but I don't have those same resources here and am setting up an "easier way of life" for my 64 yr old mother in law that has trouble getting around and forgets to turn lights off, falls asleep with the TV on, etc. I have the 2 way module to the PC and a remote that she can use but wall switches, appliance and lamp modules, etc are still needed. Email me direct if you have excess and want to make space. We can either work a cash deal or trade as I have lots of PS/2 equipment around and some older IBM PC equipment I can trade with. Thanks in advance. From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Dec 23 12:22:17 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: X10 revived - looking for modules, switches, etc Message-ID: <200112231822.fBNIMHJ28509@ns2.ezwind.net> >Anyone have a stash of cheap excess modules, switches, etc for X10/BSR/etc. >I know people mentioned sometime ago that they have bought boxes full of >stuff for a few bucks but I don't have those same resources here and am >setting up an "easier way of life" for my 64 yr old mother in law that has >trouble getting around and forgets to turn lights off, falls asleep with the >TV on, etc. I have the 2 way module to the PC and a remote that she can use >but wall switches, appliance and lamp modules, etc are still needed. Email >me direct if you have excess and want to make space. We can either work a >cash deal or trade as I have lots of PS/2 equipment around and some older >IBM PC equipment I can trade with. Thanks in advance. I don't have any that is partable (I don't have much stuff right now at all, and the few things I do have are tied up in heavy use). But, I have found X10.com has cheap prices on packages, in many cases for just a few bucks, you can get a full setup, and they run specials on a regular basis that practically give stuff away. They have a newsletter for the specials, but they tend to send out emails TOO often, so use an email account you don't care about being spammed if you sign up (and I am fairly sure they passed my addy on to others... fortunatly, I NEVER sign up for those kinds of things except under certain accounts that are already heavly spammed) -chris From ncherry at Home.com Sun Dec 23 13:10:23 2001 From: ncherry at Home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:37 2005 Subject: X10 revived - looking for modules, switches, etc References: Message-ID: <3C262C1F.54B0D76A@home.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Anyone have a stash of cheap excess modules, switches, etc for X10/BSR/etc. > I know people mentioned sometime ago that they have bought boxes full of > stuff for a few bucks but I don't have those same resources here and am > setting up an "easier way of life" for my 64 yr old mother in law that has > trouble getting around and forgets to turn lights off, falls asleep with the > TV on, etc. I have the 2 way module to the PC and a remote that she can use > but wall switches, appliance and lamp modules, etc are still needed. Email > me direct if you have excess and want to make space. We can either work a > cash deal or trade as I have lots of PS/2 equipment around and some older > IBM PC equipment I can trade with. Thanks in advance. Radio Shack (I can't tell if you're in the US) and http://smarthome.com/ -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From UberTechnoid at Home.com Sun Dec 23 12:15:08 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20011223000837.T70852-100000@mail.huebner.org> Message-ID: <20011223181604.NKJY6480.femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I actually tried that with my vax and vms. No luck. It gave me the same bomb as the wrong cdrom drive did. I have however done this several times with Solaris on my Sparcstation though. For some reason, the sparc won't boot from CDrom PERIOD. Even the rrd40 doesn't help this one. Regards, Jeff In <20011223000837.T70852-100000@mail.huebner.org>, on 12/23/01 at 12:20 AM, Hans H?bner said: >On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> Reminds me of my V3100 - quite some trouble installing VMS on it too. >> Reading the FAQs I guessed that any drive supporting 512 byte blocksize >> should do. So I tried several Plextor drives and a Toshiba (all set to >> 512 byte/block) - not much success, the VS3100 would start to boot and >> after a drop a screenful of error message on me. >A friend of mine came up with a good solution to this problem: If no >bootable CDROM drive is available, use a second hard drive with enough >space to accomodate a block-wise copy of the VMS installation CD (should >be no more than 500 MB, but i have not checked lately). Use a Unix >system to copy the VMS installation CD to this second HDD, then boot and >install from that. >-Hans -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at Home.com Sun Dec 23 12:20:46 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200112221929.fBMJTCQ03417@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011223182303.NSHR3327.femail20.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Oh yes. I have a Toshiba, a PX-43cs Plextor, a Sony, and a couple of other 512-byte block-selectable drives. None but the RRD-40 will boot (AND INSTALL) VMS on my Vax. I aquired all these drives trying to solve this problem. The RRD was the only solution. Oh, and yes, the drives work. The Toshiba is running on my Sparc, the Plextor on my PC, and the Sony on my Atari ST. Regards, Jeff In <200112221929.fBMJTCQ03417@narnia.int.dittman.net>, on 12/22/01 at 01:29 PM, Eric Dittman said: >> It would boot off any cdrom pretty much. The problem came when I tried to >> do a restore from the cd's system image. Instant screenfull of greek. >> The RRD40 was the only drive I could install vms off of. >I used the different drives to install, too. Have you tried a Plextor? >> In <200112220429.fBM4TRQ01772@narnia.int.dittman.net>, on 12/21/01 >> at 10:29 PM, Eric Dittman said: >> >> >> I've got a Vaxtation 4000/60 also! I can tell you that it is HIGHLY >> >> unlikely you will find a cdrom drive from which you can install VMS. Mine >> >> is running VMS 7.2 and NetBSD 1.5.2. After MUCH screwing around I finally >> >> just went out and got an RRD40 to install systems software. >> >> >I've not had much problems finding drives that will boot a 4000/60. I've >> >used an RRD42, a couple of Toshibas, and a couple of Plextors without any >> >problems. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at Home.com Sun Dec 23 12:18:23 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011223181941.NUWB14077.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Help does nothing really useful. What I'd like to know for instance, is how do I set the vax to do an unattended boot. It has been stuck at a two stage boot since before I even got an OS on it. It powers on, self-tests, boots to a second-level CLI, I type C for Continue and there we go. A prom manual would tell me how to get rid of the second-level cli. Regards, Jeff In , on 12/22/01 at 02:33 PM, Doc said: >On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >Good luck! I can't even find a PROM command manual for the thing. Come >> >to mention it, DOES anyone have a prom command listing for the vs400/60 >> >> Have you tried typing 'help'? Unfortunatly I don't have a fiche reader at >> the moment, so I can't check the manuals. > Oh, my gods. What a novel concept. And it even works!! > Thanks. > Doc >> >> Zane >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Classic Computer Collector | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | >> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 23 13:18:05 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions References: <20011223181941.NUWB14077.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <004401c18be6$8e3a2a00$84469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 01:18 PM Subject: Re: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions > Help does nothing really useful. What I'd like to know for instance, is > how do I set the vax to do an unattended boot. It has been stuck at a two > stage boot since before I even got an OS on it. It powers on, self-tests, > boots to a second-level CLI, I type C for Continue and there we go. > > A prom manual would tell me how to get rid of the second-level cli. Hmmm. I have an m90 which is very similar to an m60. Are you booting to VMS? There is an interactive boot flag to VMS that will result in what you're describing. What does `show boot' say? If there's something like /R:1, that might be what's causing the problem. Try `set boot whatever-but-not-/R:1' and see if that fixes it. If there is nothing set for 'boot', that might be the problem. `show dev' will list the attached devices, `dkaxx' are the names of the SCSI drives, xx is the SCSI id number. `set boot dka400' is what I have, to boot the RZ26 at id 4. Also, there is some kind of default-action prom command that specifies what to do on a reboot. I can't seem to find anything about it ATM, but there is information out there-- keep hunting! On a side note, if you plan to run NetBSD there is a little known misfeature: it will frob something in the flash that the prom doesn't like, and forever after (until someone finds out what it's tweaking and fixes it) it will throw a non-fatal error in (IIRC) SYS, which will (or so I've been told-- I don't run this machine just now) keep it from booting automatically. Starting VMS doesn't seem to fix it, altho there seems to be no other impact. > Regards, > > Jeff Bob > > In , on 12/22/01 > > at 02:33 PM, Doc said: > > >On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >> >Good luck! I can't even find a PROM command manual for the thing. Come > >> >to mention it, DOES anyone have a prom command listing for the vs400/60 > >> > >> Have you tried typing 'help'? Unfortunatly I don't have a fiche reader at > >> the moment, so I can't check the manuals. > > > Oh, my gods. What a novel concept. And it even works!! > > Thanks. > > > Doc > > >> > >> Zane > >> -- > >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > >> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > >> | | Classic Computer Collector | > >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > >> > > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at Home.com Sun Dec 23 14:49:25 2001 From: UberTechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid@Home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <004401c18be6$8e3a2a00$84469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: <20011223205110.PYCP8076.femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I fact, I have VMS on one drive (dka200) and NetBSD on another (dka100). Dual-boot system works fine but for the interactive boot deal. NetBSD works well and does a fair job as a nat router for my network. I don't use it regularly, but I've clocked it at 300+Kbps. Regards Jeff In <004401c18be6$8e3a2a00$84469280@Y5F3Q8>, on 12/23/01 at 02:18 PM, "Robert Schaefer" said: >On a side note, if you plan to run NetBSD there is a little known >misfeature: it will frob something in the flash that the prom doesn't >like, and forever after (until someone finds out what it's tweaking and >fixes it) it will throw a non-fatal error in (IIRC) SYS, which will (or >so I've been told-- I don't run this machine just now) keep it from >booting automatically. Starting VMS doesn't seem to fix it, altho there >seems to be no other impact. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 23 14:50:25 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 9-Tracks Drives, especially Overland Data Message-ID: A while back I managed to get a nice little Overland Data OD5612 SCSI 9-Track tape drive. I'm looking into getting it put somewhere that I can actually use it should I want (well that and I needed the spot it was for a couple of S-Bus expansion chassis). Anyway I just noticed something. It's got a selector switch on it for 1600bpi and 6250bpi. Am I correct in assuming that this means that I can only read those two formats? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Dec 23 15:32:31 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Solace 3.0 Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011223133207.00c17c40@postoffice.pacbell.net> Ho, Ho, Ho -- Just in time for Christmas, it's Solace 3.0. Free Sol's for everyone! This version of my Sol emulator fixes a few small bugs (including the fact that the last release broke the ability to save to virtual tapes in real-time mode). More importantly, it adds very low level emulation of a DS/DD Northstar disk system. You can run CP/M 2.2 as well as NSDOS. The emulator comes with a few virtual disk images, including a collection of Sol-relevant files culled from the CPMUG archives. Solace home page: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solace/solace.html Sol home page: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Sun Dec 23 15:56:42 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: HP 1000E Message-ID: > >Most of the cards in the machine you ahve are pretty good -- the >HS terminal will let you connect to a crt or a serial PC port with >a terminal emulator... > I did find a HP cable with a 24 pin card edge connector on one end and a 25 pin D connector on the other. The 25 pin connector only has a few pins in it (typical of HP serial cables) including 2, 3, 7, 13,and 25. I traced the wires back to where they would appear on the HS terminal card and it appear that I have the right cable for the box. At least I won't have to kludge togerther a cable. WhooHoo. I have plenty of dumb terminals laying around including a number of old HPs. So, based on your message, it sounds like I have everything necessary to make the computer "talk" to a terminal. >If you would like, I can send you a real short program >that you can key infrom the console that makes the >lights blink... This would be great! Another question: I'm assuming the placement of the cards in the cage determines the "Address" or LU of the card. Does it matter which slots the cards go in or is there an accepted standard for this? Which slot does the HS terminal card (console) go in? Thanks Again, SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From Golemancd at aol.com Sun Dec 23 18:07:05 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy Message-ID: <197.38d72b.2957cba9@aol.com> anyone know where i can find some 720k floppies thanks Joee From cbajpai at mediaone.net Sun Dec 23 20:46:21 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy In-Reply-To: <197.38d72b.2957cba9@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c18c25$2b92bcc0$017ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> I'd like to know where to find 400K floppies for my Apple Lisa. -chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Golemancd@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 7:07 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 720k floppy anyone know where i can find some 720k floppies thanks Joee From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 23 21:16:26 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy In-Reply-To: <000001c18c25$2b92bcc0$017ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> References: <197.38d72b.2957cba9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011223191521.00ba2e78@mail.aracnet.com> At 09:46 PM 12/23/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I'd like to know where to find 400K floppies for my Apple Lisa. >-chandra Can't you simply format 720K or 1.44MB floppies as 400K ones? ISTR, I used 720K ones on mine. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 23 17:05:16 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy References: <197.38d72b.2957cba9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011223191521.00ba2e78@mail.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3C26632C.FCECB8FA@jetnet.ab.ca> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > At 09:46 PM 12/23/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >I'd like to know where to find 400K floppies for my Apple Lisa. > >-chandra > > Can't you simply format 720K or 1.44MB floppies as 400K ones? ISTR, I used > 720K ones on mine. > > Zane You could format 720K floppies but not 1.44MB ones. You may be able to buy some $10 old dos games on 720K floppies - toss the game keep the floppy. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Sun Dec 23 22:25:45 2001 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy References: <197.38d72b.2957cba9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011223191521.00ba2e78@mail.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <002301c18c33$0e91ee30$9865fea9@downstairs> I have purchased new 720k floppies on eBay for about $25 per hundred. You can also get them 10 at a time. These are also sold as 800k for Apple (same media, different format). The 1.44M diskettes have a different oxide than the 720k diskettes. The 720k disks have one hole for write protect while the 1.44M has a second hole. The new drives sense the hole and adjust the write current for the different oxide. You can cover the extra hole on the 1.44M disks and formatted it as 720k but this will cause problems (I have been told). I don't know about the Lisa 400k disks but I format 720k disks in single density mode (360k) for my SWTPC 6800 system all the time. ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley www.swtpc.com ----------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 7:16 PM Subject: RE: 720k floppy > At 09:46 PM 12/23/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >I'd like to know where to find 400K floppies for my Apple Lisa. > >-chandra > > Can't you simply format 720K or 1.44MB floppies as 400K ones? ISTR, I used > 720K ones on mine. > > Zane > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Dec 23 23:05:16 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy In-Reply-To: <002301c18c33$0e91ee30$9865fea9@downstairs> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > The 1.44M diskettes have a different oxide than the 720k diskettes. The 720k > disks have one hole for write protect while the 1.44M has a second hole. The > new drives sense the hole and adjust the write current for the different > oxide. You can cover the extra hole on the 1.44M disks and formatted it as > 720k but this will cause problems (I have been told). I used to do that for my old Mac SE - cover the hole on a 1.44m floppy to make it a 720k - and it works ok. It is sort of a one-way deal, though. I could never get them to format back to 1.44. I also have no idea what it was doing to the drive. Nothing, I think, as my son still has that SE. Doc From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 23 23:22:59 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy In-Reply-To: <197.38d72b.2957cba9@aol.com> Message-ID: MEI Microcenter, now called MicroCenter Online: http://www.microcenterorder.com/product.phtml?sku=643908&per_text=per%20disk ette&brand_id=&header_image= bad thing is - minimum qty is 500. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Golemancd@aol.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 6:07 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 720k floppy anyone know where i can find some 720k floppies thanks Joee From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Dec 23 18:27:27 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" References: <3C2253A5.C6225D70@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00fc01c18c12$07213000$ec3d8a90@janets> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:39 AM Subject: Re: URL for "The Wench Bench" > Nope they were picking up early 'I love Lucy' shows by mistake. > Anyhow I thought the V2 was the last ditch bomb of the war. Several 'last ditch' things were attempted. Schmetterling (Butterfly) was a radar guided SAM that fortunately never saw service. The Henschel HS893 glide bomb did, and was used in active service in the anti ship role. The original version was first radio, then wire guided, with the operator eyeballing the track from the launch aircraft. The switch to wire was made after the Brits found it's R/C frequencies and jammed them. IIRC it was used to sink at least one warship. The TV guided version never saw service, but they did make it work, though not perfectly, and it inspired the Walleye glide bomb and Maverick ASM amongst others. To fit a vaccuum tube tv camera and transmitter into a small enough package using WW2 tech was a feat of electronics never before attempted. Geoff In Oz From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 23 16:47:59 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: URL for "The Wench Bench" References: <3C2253A5.C6225D70@jetnet.ab.ca> <00fc01c18c12$07213000$ec3d8a90@janets> Message-ID: <3C265F1F.E38B890@jetnet.ab.ca> Geoff Roberts wrote: > Several 'last ditch' things were attempted. Schmetterling (Butterfly) was a > radar guided SAM that fortunately never saw service. The Henschel HS893 > glide bomb did, and was used in active service in the anti ship role. The > original version was first radio, then wire guided, with the operator > eyeballing the track from the launch aircraft. The switch to wire was made > after the Brits found it's R/C frequencies and jammed them. IIRC it was used > to sink at least one warship. The TV guided version never saw service, but > they did make it work, though not perfectly, and it inspired the Walleye > glide bomb and Maverick ASM amongst others. To fit a vaccuum tube tv camera > and transmitter into a small enough package using WW2 tech was a feat of > electronics never before attempted. This is new to me. Lets not forget the almost technology -- "The skip bomber"?. The idea was you would fly into space,then bounce of the Earth's atmosphere once, drop your bomb on New York and bounce again and keep bouncing until you land in Japan. The real details could be different but you get the idea. > Geoff In Oz -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jrasite at eoni.com Sun Dec 23 18:31:34 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Appletalk h/w Message-ID: <3C267761.5AD93D80@eoni.com> Does anyone on the list want a pile of Appletalk tranceivers and cabling? I came into a box 18x18x36 of it and would rather give it away than pay to take it to the landfill. This is not Localtalk, but jan-u-wine AT. Round connectors, not RJ11. If anyone wants it for the price of postage, drop me a line. Jim From dmabry at mich.com Sun Dec 23 18:34:31 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Good way to archive system disks Message-ID: <3C267817.124A6F8C@mich.com> I'd like to create some archives of system diskettes for older machines, cp/m machines that use 5 1/4" 96 tpi double sided diskettes and 8" diskettes. What is a good way to do that? I've looked into Teledisk but that assumes that you can read the actual diskettes on a PC which I can't. Any suggestions? Thanks. -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From ernestls at attbi.com Sun Dec 23 21:28:29 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Good way to archive system disks In-Reply-To: <3C267817.124A6F8C@mich.com> Message-ID: The 8" disks might be a problem. I've never tried to hook 8" disks up to a PC... not even an older one. However, teledisk works great with CP/M stuff but like you said, you do need to have the same size floppy drives hooked to your PC if you want the process to run smoothly. I think that teledisk doesn't care about the read so much as the write back. I've made disk images of many CP/M disks, and old software on 360K 5.25" disks in general, and I never had problems with recreating the bootable disks as long as I use the same size drives to read and write to. If you don't have an extra drive of the size that you need (5.25" of some size,) it's worth hunting one down for things like this. I personally use an Amstrad 1512 to create my 360k disk images usually, and then transfer them via laplink to my PC. It might be possible to hook up the 8" drives to a PC but choose the 1.2 meg 5.25" option in bios but I don't know. It probably wouldn't work but I'll let someone else confirm that. Once you have the disk images, you can burn them to a cd, and recreate them at will. E. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave Mabry > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 4:35 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Good way to archive system disks > > > I'd like to create some archives of system diskettes for older machines, > cp/m machines that use 5 1/4" 96 tpi double sided diskettes and 8" > diskettes. > > What is a good way to do that? I've looked into Teledisk but that > assumes that you can read the actual diskettes on a PC which I can't. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks. > -- > Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com > Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team > NACD #2093 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 23 22:05:36 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Good way to archive system disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It might be possible to hook up the 8" drives to a PC but choose the 1.2 meg > 5.25" option in bios but I don't know. It probably wouldn't work but I'll > let someone else confirm that. It works. just a matter of cabling, as the 1.2M is virtually indistinguishable from 8". But cable it as drive B:, because some BIOS's will have a problem with it not having a 360K mode. And 5.25" 720K and 3.5" 720K are direct replacements for each other. From dmabry at mich.com Sun Dec 23 23:29:19 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Good way to archive system disks References: Message-ID: <3C26BD2F.3BDF0534@mich.com> I think I've still got a problem doing this, though. The 5 1/4 inch diskettes that I want to image are 96 tpi and standard PC diskette drives are 48 tpi. Although the 1.2M AT-style ones were 96 tpi. Not sure if I can make one of them work. That might be worth a try. Another obstacle is that 440BX chipsets only control one floppy drive. I don't have an older PC that can control two floppy drives. Am I missing something here? The 8 inch diskettes are Intel's somewhat unique M2FM, not the more standard MFM. So I doubt that there is any diskette controller for the PC that would read them. What I was hoping for was a program that would run under CP/M on the target machine that would allow me to make an image file of a diskette on that machine. Then I could transfer that image file over to a PC and put it on a CD. Thinking about it, though, I might end up with a catch 22. In order to make a diskette from one of those images would require a running CP/M machine. Are you saying below that a 96 tpi 5 1/4 inch diskette drive can plug into a PC and be detected as a 720K 3.5 inch drive? More for me to think about. Thanks. "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > It might be possible to hook up the 8" drives to a PC but choose the 1.2 meg > > 5.25" option in bios but I don't know. It probably wouldn't work but I'll > > let someone else confirm that. > > It works. just a matter of cabling, as the 1.2M is virtually > indistinguishable from 8". But cable it as drive B:, because some BIOS's > will have a problem with it not having a 360K mode. > > And 5.25" 720K and 3.5" 720K are direct replacements for each other. -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 22:22:25 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: INCREDIBLE Ebay Item (sorta OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011224042225.22476.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> This might be slightly off topic, but it does involve a display technology that was used with computers of the 50's and 60's that I find interesting. This is, perhaps, the geekiest thing I have ever seen on eBay, period: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1681232797 For those of you link-challenged, it is a Nixie tube watch. Yes, you read this correctly, a watch. And its of "reasonable" size. I had no ides Nixie tubes of this small size were ever made. I think this is an truly incredible combination of old and modern technologies. I myself hope to build a 32 character by 16 line vector alphanumeric display with D/A converters, a PIC, and a Tektronix 60X series display, in the vein of pre-raster 1960's computer terminals. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 23 18:40:43 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <007101c18c14$665733b0$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Cp/m page zero was not required for the os functionality only commonality. The best worst example was the TRS-80 version that had page zero relocated +16k higher to allow for the fixed rom, keyboard and video IO. The aspects of CP/M that would work for a 6502 (or any cpu) are the dynamic filespace allocation and the standized IO interface (BIOS) concept. there are other aspects but the file IO and system IO concepts were the strong points. Ah, and you found the hidden register bug in the z80. You can select either absolutely but, you cannot know which was in use save by some arcane test procedure. Works ok if your building software and enforcing a protocal for use but a multitasking OS where random routines may use one of the other is a mess. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, December 23, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) >For some time I've occasionally contemplated a translator from 8080 syntax to >6502, just for mental masturbation. I don't consider the Z80 a worthy target >for such translation/emulation because half its internal resources are only >accessible via the most extreme of artifice. (It has a redundant register set, >at considerable cost, yet doesn't seem to have any way of telling the running >software which of the two sets it's using.) It wouldn't be terribly difficult >to assign register space to the 6502 zero page in locations corresponding with >some not used by CP/M on the 8080. That might prove an interesting way to cook >up a useable OS for the 6502. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Pete Turnbull" >To: >Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 5:21 AM >Subject: Re: 6502/Z80 speed comparison (was MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > >> On Dec 22, 4:44, Ben Franchuk wrote: >> > Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > > >> > > Let's leave compilers out of the equation. Even the same small-C >> compiler, >> > > targeted at the two quite different CPU's potentially represent a >> significant >> > > skew in favor of one or another of the two. >> > > >> > How can you have skew? That is the whole idea of benchmark is to >> > compare >> > two machines. I would expect that the simple C that was given would be a >> > good test >> > when judged with other benchmarks. >> >> For a comparison of two development systems, maybe, but not for a simple >> comparison of processors. You'll find that the compilers were written >> differently for the different processors. As likely as not, one will be >> better at certain things than another, or better on one processor. >> >> For example, gcc does fairly poorly on a PDP-11 or an SGI machine (SGI's cc >> will run rings round gcc for MIPS in almost every respect) yet works very >> well on an x86 achitecture, because that's where the major development was >> done. If you take a compiler written for one chip, say a Z80, a straight >> port will produce poor code for a 6502 because you have to think about >> things in a different way, and this will be more apparent with a simple >> compiler than sophisticated one. >> >> -- >> Pete Peter Turnbull >> Network Manager >> University of York >> >> > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 23 19:09:42 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 9-Tracks Drives, especially Overland Data In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "9-Tracks Drives, especially Overland Data" (Dec 23, 12:50) References: Message-ID: <10112240109.ZM1465@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 23, 12:50, Zane H. Healy wrote: > A while back I managed to get a nice little Overland Data OD5612 SCSI > 9-Track tape drive. [...] > Anyway I just noticed something. It's got a selector switch on it for > 1600bpi and 6250bpi. Am I correct in assuming that this means that I can > only read those two formats? I don't know anything about that specific drive, but I'd guess the answer is "yes". It might do 3200, which is phase-encoded like 1600, but probably not 800, which is NRZI and needs different electronics (and is actually harder to do reliably, according to some manufacturers). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Dec 23 19:23:20 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: <3C2608F2.1040809@chisp.net> from Michael Maginnis at "Dec 23, 1 09:40:18 am" Message-ID: <200112240123.RAA26096@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > This reminds me. Is there any picture gallery of major RS/6K models? > http://www.exquip.com/products/ibm/ Ooooooo. :-) Thanks. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled already. ------------- From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Dec 23 20:37:02 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E00A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <007401c18a3a$193c4100$69721fd1@default> <3C24A6BB.6563F792@idirect.com> Message-ID: <007301c18c23$dfb04620$c9721fd1@default> Sorry because of the short time for my move out date I had to pack the box away in storage and will not be able to get to it until maybe this summer. I'll buy the parts from you anyway after I get down to Houston on Wednesday I will email you about terms. Thanks for the help. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Fine" To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 9:28 AM Subject: Re: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) > >John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > Parts to repair my Micro PDP11 that was damaged during the move this > > week. I need the base plate as I broke a piece about 8" long my 3" wide > > off one side. The front panel was also damaged beyond repair. Anyone > > having parts for sale contact me at jrkeys@concentric.net. Thanks in > > advance. > > Which box? BA23? I may have a spare one already without the power supply > and a few other pieces that could be further dismantled for the needed parts. > > From ernestls at attbi.com Sun Dec 23 22:46:10 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Clint Wolff (VAX > collector) > Anything of great import happen in the last two months (since > 31-oct-01?) Halloween and Thanksgiving passed by quietly, Katie Curic signed a $65 million dollar contract with the Today Show on NBC, and those rat bastard new york yankees signed Jason Giambi to their team. Those are just a few events to get you started. Oh, and I also finally have an old computer web site of my own up and running. Yahoo. http://12.228.5.66 E. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 23 18:57:02 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! References: Message-ID: <3C267D5E.32F5E3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> Ernest wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Clint Wolff (VAX > > collector) > > > Anything of great import happen in the last two months (since > > 31-oct-01?) > > Halloween and Thanksgiving passed by quietly, Katie Curic signed a $65 > million dollar contract with the Today Show on NBC, and those rat bastard > new york yankees signed Jason Giambi to their team. Those are just a few > events to get you started. Oh, and I also finally have an old computer web > site of my own up and running. Yahoo. > > http://12.228.5.66 > > E. I had the page up and windows crashed. So I reboot and the link DON'T work cause the SERVER is too busy! But it can give me a big stupid error web page. Thanks for the link any how. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 23 18:58:40 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! References: Message-ID: <3C267DC0.CFCA755C@jetnet.ab.ca> Ernest wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Clint Wolff (VAX > > collector) > > > Anything of great import happen in the last two months (since > > 31-oct-01?) > > Halloween and Thanksgiving passed by quietly, Katie Curic signed a $65 > million dollar contract with the Today Show on NBC, and those rat bastard > new york yankees signed Jason Giambi to their team. Those are just a few > events to get you started. Oh, and I also finally have an old computer web > site of my own up and running. Yahoo. > > http://12.228.5.66 > > E. And of course after I send the email the page pops up! :( -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From Golemancd at aol.com Sun Dec 23 22:59:51 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy thanks Message-ID: <12a.99920c0.29581047@aol.com> thanks for the info i am going to see if i can find some on ebay will try the hole covering thing also i have a couple of computers that use 720k tandy and a toshiba laptop thanks again Joee From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 23 23:20:42 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: X10 revived - looking for modules, switches, etc In-Reply-To: <3C262C1F.54B0D76A@home.com> Message-ID: I appreciate all the commercial links, I know all of them though and I don't want to pop for brand new items. I'm looking for used items that someone might be willing to create space for and save me some cash on this job that I really hate having to do (my mom-in-law is a pain in the ars). -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Neil Cherry Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 1:10 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: X10 revived - looking for modules, switches, etc Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Anyone have a stash of cheap excess modules, switches, etc for X10/BSR/etc. > I know people mentioned sometime ago that they have bought boxes full of > stuff for a few bucks but I don't have those same resources here and am > setting up an "easier way of life" for my 64 yr old mother in law that has > trouble getting around and forgets to turn lights off, falls asleep with the > TV on, etc. I have the 2 way module to the PC and a remote that she can use > but wall switches, appliance and lamp modules, etc are still needed. Email > me direct if you have excess and want to make space. We can either work a > cash deal or trade as I have lots of PS/2 equipment around and some older > IBM PC equipment I can trade with. Thanks in advance. Radio Shack (I can't tell if you're in the US) and http://smarthome.com/ -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 23 12:55:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: M8650 async board problem In-Reply-To: <10112230122.ZM620@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 23, 1 01:22:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 825 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011223/fce3ced5/attachment.ksh From bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 17:17:57 2001 From: bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com (Bill McDermith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: HP 1000E References: Message-ID: <3C266625.67E84C2F@yahoo.com> Steve Robertson wrote: > > > >Most of the cards in the machine you ahve are pretty good -- the > >HS terminal will let you connect to a crt or a serial PC port with > >a terminal emulator... > > > > I did find a HP cable with a 24 pin card edge connector on one end and a 25 > pin D connector on the other. The 25 pin connector only has a few pins in it > (typical of HP serial cables) including 2, 3, 7, 13,and 25. I traced the > wires back to where they would appear on the HS terminal card and it appear > that I have the right cable for the box. At least I won't have to kludge > togerther a cable. WhooHoo. > > I have plenty of dumb terminals laying around including a number of old HPs. > So, based on your message, it sounds like I have everything necessary to > make the computer "talk" to a terminal. Sure, but you'll need something running on the box to talk to the terminal.. I do know that the BCS/SIO/Paper Tape stuff on Jeff's site will talk to the buffered TTY interface, but don't know about the HS card... > > > >If you would like, I can send you a real short program > >that you can key infrom the console that makes the > >lights blink... > > This would be great! I'll sent it directly to you... > > > Another question: I'm assuming the placement of the cards in the cage > determines the "Address" or LU of the card. Does it matter which slots the > cards go in or is there an accepted standard for this? Which slot does the > HS terminal card (console) go in? Yes. The slots are numbered, from 10B to 25B (In a 2100 anyway, the MX may have more slots, but I don't thinks so... The B means Octal...) The highest priority slot is 10B, and you won't want any empty slots between cards or between 10B and the first card... On Jeff's site, look at: http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/2100ref/index.html The 21MX is a "bigger,better" 2100 (it has additonal instructions) but the IO system is quite similar... > > > Thanks Again, > SteveRob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 23 17:44:16 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: AN/UYKs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Did you get programmer's consoles with any of these machines? No (I assume you mean a switches-and-lights thing). Of the 1602Bs, two appear to be unused. The Loral machines are definitely unused (one is still sealed). The 1666B-S (does the "S" mean anything?) is definitely used, and is crammed with interface cards. Do all 1602Bs have core memory? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Dec 23 18:11:58 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: AN/UYKs References: Message-ID: <3C2672CE.9020300@mainecoon.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>Did you get programmer's consoles with any of these machines? >> > > No (I assume you mean a switches-and-lights thing). Of the 1602Bs, two > appear to be unused. The Loral machines are definitely unused (one is > still sealed). The 1666B-S (does the "S" mean anything?) is definitely > used, and is crammed with interface cards. Wow. I'm officially envious :-) I'll have to poke around on the -S designation -- I wasn't too involved with the 16-bit stuff during my tenure at ROLM. > Do all 1602Bs have core memory? Yes. Many applications for the ROLM machines didn't include any sort of mass storage; the intent being that the operating system, applications and even file system were gen'ed into an image that was loaded once into memory where it persisted in core. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 24 00:18:07 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Good way to archive system disks References: <3C26BD2F.3BDF0534@mich.com> Message-ID: <3C26C89F.11536DA3@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Mabry wrote: > > I think I've still got a problem doing this, though. The 5 1/4 inch > diskettes that I want to image are 96 tpi and standard PC diskette > drives are 48 tpi. Although the 1.2M AT-style ones were 96 tpi. Not > sure if I can make one of them work. That might be worth a try. > > Another obstacle is that 440BX chipsets only control one floppy drive. > I don't have an older PC that can control two floppy drives. Am I > missing something here? > > The 8 inch diskettes are Intel's somewhat unique M2FM, not the more > standard MFM. So I doubt that there is any diskette controller for the > PC that would read them. > > What I was hoping for was a program that would run under CP/M on the > target machine that would allow me to make an image file of a diskette > on that machine. Then I could transfer that image file over to a PC and > put it on a CD. Thinking about it, though, I might end up with a catch > 22. In order to make a diskette from one of those images would require > a running CP/M machine. > > Are you saying below that a 96 tpi 5 1/4 inch diskette drive can plug > into a PC and be detected as a 720K 3.5 inch drive? > > More for me to think about. Thanks. > > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > > It might be possible to hook up the 8" drives to a PC but choose the 1.2 meg > > > 5.25" option in bios but I don't know. It probably wouldn't work but I'll > > > let someone else confirm that. > > > > It works. just a matter of cabling, as the 1.2M is virtually > > indistinguishable from 8". But cable it as drive B:, because some BIOS's > > will have a problem with it not having a 360K mode. > > > > And 5.25" 720K and 3.5" 720K are direct replacements for each other. > > -- > Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com > Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team > NACD #2093 Check out CatWeasel on the web , they may be able to read the format. While they has a PC card the Amiga (sp?) is better supported. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From Golemancd at aol.com Mon Dec 24 00:14:25 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: 720k floppy thanks Message-ID: <187.f54aaf.295821c1@aol.com> i tryed the thing where u cover the extra hole on a 1.44 oddly enough it actually works. pretty cool . so i am using a 1.44 in my 720k drive on my tanky 1000 hx thanks joe From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 24 00:21:06 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: <3C267DC0.CFCA755C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Well, there were suddenly 37 active connections all trying to get it. Ouch. No wonder it bombed on you. Keep trying if you get a server busy error. The activity should slow down. Comments on the site, anyone? E. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ben Franchuk > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 4:59 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: I'm back!!!! > > > Ernest wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Clint Wolff (VAX > > > collector) > > > > > Anything of great import happen in the last two months (since > > > 31-oct-01?) > > > > Halloween and Thanksgiving passed by quietly, Katie Curic signed a $65 > > million dollar contract with the Today Show on NBC, and those > rat bastard > > new york yankees signed Jason Giambi to their team. Those are just a few > > events to get you started. Oh, and I also finally have an old > computer web > > site of my own up and running. Yahoo. > > > > http://12.228.5.66 > > > > E. > > And of course after I send the email the page pops up! :( > -- > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 24 01:07:43 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! References: Message-ID: <3C26D43F.C7869133@jetnet.ab.ca> Ernest wrote: > > Well, there were suddenly 37 active connections all trying to get it. Ouch. > No wonder it bombed on you. Keep trying if you get a server busy error. The > activity should slow down. > > Comments on the site, anyone? It looks good ! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 01:12:11 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: RE: I'm back!!!! (Ernest) References: <3C267DC0.CFCA755C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15398.54603.474341.592142@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 23, Ernest wrote: > Well, there were suddenly 37 active connections all trying to get it. Ouch. > No wonder it bombed on you. Keep trying if you get a server busy error. The > activity should slow down. > > Comments on the site, anyone? Cool stuff! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From wilby98 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 01:39:28 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: <15398.54603.474341.592142@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 02:12:11AM -0500 References: <3C267DC0.CFCA755C@jetnet.ab.ca> <15398.54603.474341.592142@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011224083928.A26984@xs4all.nl> Ernest, I like the site. Where are you located that you acquired the items from Europe. The Televideo 950 Terminal looks alot like the DEC vt100 I once had and used with a 300 baud (or was it 1200 baud) external modem. Bill Amsterdam, NL On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 02:12:11AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 23, Ernest wrote: > > Well, there were suddenly 37 active connections all trying to get it. Ouch. > > No wonder it bombed on you. Keep trying if you get a server busy error. The > > activity should slow down. > > > > Comments on the site, anyone? > > Cool stuff! From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 23:28:52 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Still want that Audrey? In-Reply-To: <3C238F95.14581.9C792064@localhost> Message-ID: <20011225052852.56058.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Hans, Did we ever work out a method for moving money? I still have this Audrey ready to go out. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 01:27:18 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Still want that Audrey? In-Reply-To: <20011225052852.56058.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011225072718.47813.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: Whoops! Meant for private mail. Sorry. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From fernande at internet1.net Mon Dec 24 23:37:17 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:38 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! Message-ID: <3C28108D.B34E8CF8@internet1.net> I didn't even realize it was past 12:00 until just now...... I'm busy wrapping presents :-) I've been working on a 486 for the last few days. I'm trying to get a few stagnant projects going. Dumb things freezes on me..... will write more later. Finally snowed too! Merry Christmas!! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 01:26:39 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: 32Mb SO-DIMMs available Message-ID: <20011225072639.47768.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> I thought I'd give folks a chance on these before I took them back. I bought them labelled "SO-DIMMs for older Dell Laptops" - apparently, my laptop is too old. What I have in my Latitude LM are what I think of as SO-DIMMs - 36-pins, double-sided, no keying groove. What I have appears to be for a Latitude CP machine. It _does_ have a keying groove and a lot more pins... more than double. One of these is new in the package, one has been opened (before I got them). The part numbers on the DRAMs is D42S65165G5-A60-7JF. The CDW part number is 118982, the Visiontek part number appears to be 54073.0 If anyone is interested in a pair of 32Mb SO-DIMMs, contact me off-list at ethan_dicks@yahoo.com. If there's no interest, I can take them back, but they'll hit me for a 10% restocking fee. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Dec 24 22:00:04 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: FS/FT: DEC TZ85 DLT tape drive Message-ID: <20011224220004.Y10252@mrbill.net> I'm not sure how old this is, or if it meets the 10-year rule.. but I've got a DEC TZ85 (first-generation DLT; also reads TK50 and TK70 media) SCSI DLT drive for sale or trade. Ended up not being enough capacity (does 2.6G on a DLT-III tape) for what I needed at home. I've got the TZ85-A in original DEC big loud and noisy desktop 5.25" enclosure (has Centronics-style SCSI-I connectors, and I'll throw in the DEC scsi terminator). If it helps, I'll also throw in 10 or 20 DLT-III tapes, if you want to pay shipping (these tapes also work with all current DLT drives, at 10/20G capacity if I remember correctly). Looking to sell, or trade for ham radio or scanner (radio) gear. I'm in Austin, TX, and this beast is heavy (as are the tapes), so a local or nearby deal preferred, but if you're not local, buyer pays shipping. Email me if interested. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Dec 25 00:29:26 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: FS/FT: DEC TZ85 DLT tape drive In-Reply-To: <20011224220004.Y10252@mrbill.net> References: <20011224220004.Y10252@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20011225002926.D10252@mrbill.net> On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 10:00:04PM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > I'm not sure how old this is, or if it meets the 10-year rule.. but I've > got a DEC TZ85 (first-generation DLT; also reads TK50 and TK70 media) > SCSI DLT drive for sale or trade. Ended up not being enough capacity > (does 2.6G on a DLT-III tape) for what I needed at home. Doc's claimed it. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1341.monmouth.com Mon Dec 24 21:13:01 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1341.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Wanted DEC VT1200 mouse and cable Message-ID: <200112250313.fBP3D1H01745@bg-tc-ppp1341.monmouth.com> I'm looking for the following. The cable that goes between the DEC VT1200 (looks like an N connector) and their monochrome video monitors like a vt262 and a DEC VSXXX-AA mouse. I've got a working VT1200 minus mouse and video cable. I was going to cobble one up with some RG6 and a BNC connector and an N connector (if that's really an N connector) but I'd really rather find the right cable and spend more time enjoying the toy rather than fixing it. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 21:25:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Wanted DEC VT1200 mouse and cable In-Reply-To: Wanted DEC VT1200 mouse and cable (Bill Pechter) References: <200112250313.fBP3D1H01745@bg-tc-ppp1341.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <15399.61867.625746.803251@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 24, Bill Pechter wrote: > The cable that goes between the DEC VT1200 (looks like an N connector) > and their monochrome video monitors like a vt262 and a DEC VSXXX-AA > mouse. > > I've got a working VT1200 minus mouse and video cable. > I was going to cobble one up with some RG6 and a BNC connector and > an N connector (if that's really an N connector) but I'd really rather > find the right cable and spend more time enjoying the toy rather than > fixing it. FYI, if that connector is about the size of a BNC but threaded, it's a TNC connector. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 20:34:38 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Apple cable (was Re: Apple DuoDisk (was Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff)) In-Reply-To: <3C12F25F.A4DD5513@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20011225023438.97935.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chad Fernandez wrote: > 590-0114 is printed on the computer end of my cable. That end only has > 19 pins..... I found the cable I was thinking of... 590-0037B - DB25M on both ends, pins 1-8, 12, 13, 19, 20 and 23 (23 is now missing) Any ideas? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 20:39:27 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 (was Re: Fluke, GRID and Daisy) In-Reply-To: <20011223132111.JYZP14593.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Message-ID: <20011225023927.60363.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike wrote: > It's funny how once you find out about a certain machine they then > seem to show up everywhere. Found a Fluke 900* yesterday they are > asking $25 (Cdn) for it, looked like it was missing attachments. Seen any good pods? I have a Fluke 9010 and only have a 68000 pod. I really wish I could locate a 6502 pod. I'd use it lots. I'd be interested in a Z-80 pod, but not as much. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Mon Dec 24 03:09:35 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Multitech/Acer Micro-Professor info WTD Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0219BE@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: 22 December 2001 23:28 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Multitech/Acer Micro-Professor info WTD > > > I've managed to acquire a few Multitech Micro-Professor > printers and I'd > > like to know just how the heck to use them. I've managed to > partially > > decipher the schematic, but I can't get the *ing ROM to > dump. I've got it > > I know I have the user manual and scheamtic for this > somewhere. From what > I remember the hardware is very simple and most of the work > is done in > the firmware which runs on the uProf's Z80. > > There's some other info in the manual, such as the printer mechanism > timing. Unfortuately, it's going to take me a bit of time to > find said > manual... If I remember I've got 2 manuals at home that are *this* easy to find so I'll dig 'em out hopefully today...... -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Mon Dec 24 03:13:24 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers) Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0219BF@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt London [mailto:classiccmp@knm.yi.org] > Sent: 21 December 2001 20:09 > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic > Computers) > > > Speaking of the A570, has anyone got a spare PSU for one? > > I've got an A570 here - the A570/A500/A500+/A600/A1200 PSU's are > interchangable. I wondered about that, but various postings I found indicated the A570 PSU was switchless and also 'pulsed' the power lines to help booting off the CD-ROM.....it didn't mention pinouts so I didn't want to try it! > I'm after one ATM :&) > > I might finally give up and just get a normal CD player, and > use my A570 > for any CDTV games I get. Yeah, but just look at the *Styling* :) You KNOW you want one...... -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Mon Dec 24 13:27:44 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers) In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0219BF@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Message-ID: Hi, > > > Speaking of the A570, has anyone got a spare PSU for one? > > > > I've got an A570 here - the A570/A500/A500+/A600/A1200 PSU's are > > interchangable. > > I wondered about that, but various postings I found indicated the A570 PSU > was switchless and also 'pulsed' the power lines to help booting off the > CD-ROM.....it didn't mention pinouts so I didn't want to try it! Mine came with a switched one. The one for the A590 I have is switchless, and has a round connector, not a square one. > > I might finally give up and just get a normal CD player, and > > use my A570 > > for any CDTV games I get. > > Yeah, but just look at the *Styling* :) You KNOW you want one...... Saw a Rotel RCD-855 on ebay - got it for 20 pounds - I'm very impressed. I shall keep my eyes peeled for a CDTV tho - they're nice boxen :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 17:30:39 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: CD32 and CD-TV (was Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers) In-Reply-To: <693.755T1368T8173340rachael_@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20011224233039.91586.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > on 19-Dec-01 18:53:47, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have an SX-1 adapter... > > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/sx-1.html, there is a PDF version of > the docs there. Perfect. Thanks! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 24 08:31:32 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Apple II serial number 2000? In-Reply-To: <20011224083928.A26984@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I have an Apple II, serial number 2000. There is some question as to whether or not this acurate so I thought that I would toss it out here and see if any of you can verify it one way or the other. This is the first Apple II computer that I've really been able to work with so I'm not sure about all the different revisions that Apple made to the A2, or what things to look for that would indicate whether or not this board is old enough to be serial number 2000. One person told me that it is in fact, a revision 0 board, and the edge connectors are unusual (?) but someone else (Sellam) mentioned that he believed that Apple began the A2 series with serial number 2001 (a spin on the 2001 movie.) I would like to hear if anyone has any thoughts or opinions about it. Me, I'm just happy to finally have a real Apple II, no matter what the serial number is. There are pictures of it on my web page at: http://12.228.5.66 The pictures will expand to 640x480 if you click on the main images. Thanks. E. From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Mon Dec 24 13:05:01 2001 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Apple II serial number 2000? References: Message-ID: <000f01c18cad$e3680340$9865fea9@downstairs> The Apple II computers started at serial number #1. When I was going to the College of San Mateo in 1976 and 1977 I worked at a local computer store, Allied Computer, run by Chet Harris. The owner was trying to set up a chain like the Byte Shops and Computer Land. I got to meet some interesting people then, like a field trip to Bill Godbout's where we met Bill and George Morrow. Chet had tried to interest Mike Markala in investing in his enterprise but Mr. Markala was going with Apple. Allied Computer was a distributor for Apple and we sold Apple II main boards before the plastic case was ready. (It took several design iterations before the injection molds worked correctly.) One Saturday Chet came in with the first two Apple II computers built, Serial number 1 and 2. He sold #1 to a friend of his and I took #2 home with me. I hooked it up to our color TV and loaded various games. I showed the system to friends for a week or so until the power supply died. It went back to Apple and I never saw it again. One of the customers at Allied Computer was Bill Kelly. He was working for Regis McKenna Advertising on the Apple II introduction. He has a web page that talks about the early days at Apple Computer. http://www.kelleyad.com/Histry.htm ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley www.swtpc.com ----------------------------------------------- From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Dec 24 23:25:08 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Apple II serial number 2000? References: <000f01c18cad$e3680340$9865fea9@downstairs> Message-ID: <3C280DB4.76895A0A@mail.verizon.net> Michael Holley wrote: > The Apple II computers started at serial number #1. When I was going to the > College of San Mateo in 1976 and 1977 I worked at a local computer store, > Allied Computer, run by Chet Harris. The owner was trying to set up a chain > like the Byte Shops and Computer Land. I got to meet some interesting people > then, like a field trip to Bill Godbout's where we met Bill and George > Morrow. > I.m pretty sure I sold the first Apple II computer in Virginia before Computerland ever existed. It was a demo. I suspect that if it wasn't a single digit SN, then it was a low two digit SN. I worked for a company called 'The Computer Systems Store' in McLean, VA. We sold Commodore PETs and SOL 20s, 1976-1978. Computerland put us out of buisness. Eric > > Chet had tried to interest Mike Markala in investing in his enterprise but > Mr. Markala was going with Apple. Allied Computer was a distributor for > Apple and we sold Apple II main boards before the plastic case was ready. > (It took several design iterations before the injection molds worked > correctly.) > > One Saturday Chet came in with the first two Apple II computers built, > Serial number 1 and 2. He sold #1 to a friend of his and I took #2 home with > me. I hooked it up to our color TV and loaded various games. I showed the > system to friends for a week or so until the power supply died. It went back > to Apple and I never saw it again. > > One of the customers at Allied Computer was Bill Kelly. He was working for > Regis McKenna Advertising on the Apple II introduction. He has a web page > that talks about the early days at Apple Computer. > > http://www.kelleyad.com/Histry.htm > > ----------------------------------------------- > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com > ----------------------------------------------- From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Tue Dec 25 01:36:26 2001 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Apple II serial number 2000? References: <000f01c18cad$e3680340$9865fea9@downstairs> <3C280DB4.76895A0A@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <000d01c18d16$dc2bf5f0$9865fea9@downstairs> These were the first two assembled units. Chet Harris went down the Apple factory in Cupertino to pick them up. He had some kind of business relationship with Mike Markala. He got Mike Markala to come to his store to demo the Apple II computers. I sat at a table with him for several hours demonstrating the Apple II. We had Apple II boards for several week before that. Apple had difficulty with the plastic case. I think they were flying the tooling back and forth from Los Angles to San Jose. The factory was in one place and the tool designer was in the other. I don't think the first cases had the vent holes in the side. Computer Land was call Computer Shack before Radio Shack got on them. The store in San Leandro was open before the Apple II came out. In the January 1977 Byte magazine there is an ad for Computer Shack. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Chomko" To: Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 9:25 PM Subject: Re: Apple II serial number 2000? > > > Michael Holley wrote: > > > The Apple II computers started at serial number #1. When I was going to the > > College of San Mateo in 1976 and 1977 I worked at a local computer store, > > Allied Computer, run by Chet Harris. The owner was trying to set up a chain > > like the Byte Shops and Computer Land. I got to meet some interesting people > > then, like a field trip to Bill Godbout's where we met Bill and George > > Morrow. > > > > I.m pretty sure I sold the first Apple II computer in Virginia before > Computerland ever existed. > It was a demo. I suspect that if it wasn't a single digit SN, then it was a low > two digit SN. > > I worked for a company called 'The Computer Systems Store' in McLean, VA. We > sold Commodore PETs and SOL 20s, 1976-1978. Computerland put us out of buisness. > > Eric > > > > > > > > > Chet had tried to interest Mike Markala in investing in his enterprise but > > Mr. Markala was going with Apple. Allied Computer was a distributor for > > Apple and we sold Apple II main boards before the plastic case was ready. > > (It took several design iterations before the injection molds worked > > correctly.) > > > > One Saturday Chet came in with the first two Apple II computers built, > > Serial number 1 and 2. He sold #1 to a friend of his and I took #2 home with > > me. I hooked it up to our color TV and loaded various games. I showed the > > system to friends for a week or so until the power supply died. It went back > > to Apple and I never saw it again. > > > > One of the customers at Allied Computer was Bill Kelly. He was working for > > Regis McKenna Advertising on the Apple II introduction. He has a web page > > that talks about the early days at Apple Computer. > > > > http://www.kelleyad.com/Histry.htm > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > Michael Holley > > www.swtpc.com > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 24 14:34:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Apple II serial number 2000? In-Reply-To: from "Ernest" at Dec 24, 1 06:31:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1905 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011224/8d44963a/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 24 17:11:22 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Apple II serial number 2000? In-Reply-To: "Ernest" "Apple II serial number 2000?" (Dec 24, 6:31) References: Message-ID: <10112242311.ZM3963@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 24, 6:31, Ernest wrote: > > I have an Apple II, serial number 2000. There is some question as to whether > or not this acurate so I thought that I would toss it out here and see if > any of you can verify it one way or the other. [...] > One person told me that it is in fact, a revision 0 board, and the edge > connectors are unusual (?) but someone else (Sellam) mentioned that he > believed that Apple began the A2 series with serial number 2001 (a spin on > the 2001 movie.) I would like to hear if anyone has any thoughts or opinions > about it. It certainly looks like an early Rev.0 board -- it has the memory configuration blocks, the right kind of sockets, old DRAM, and no extra video pin in the corner. It's an old keyboard as well (look at the power light). It's amazingly clean. You must have taken a bit of care over it, from your description. A nice find, anyway. > The pictures will expand to 640x480 if you click on the main images. Not, alas, in Netscape. But right-clicking on them works. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Mon Dec 24 08:15:15 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: HP 1000E - It's a blinkin Message-ID: Bill, Toggled in the program that you sent me and it actually works. Well... It didn't work the first few times because of operator error but, it works now :-) I AM ABSOLUTELY THRILLED!!! Thanks, SteveRob > > >If you would like, I can send you a real short program > > >that you can key infrom the console that makes the > > >lights blink... > > > > This would be great! > >I'll sent it directly to you... _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From neil.macmillan at freeuk.com Mon Dec 24 09:16:33 2001 From: neil.macmillan at freeuk.com (Neil Macmillan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Fairchild FST-2? Message-ID: <3C2746D1.126B195B@freeuk.com> The Fairchild FST-2 computer was used to control a family of Semiconductor ( chip ) testers I guess from sometime in the mid 1970s to around the mid 1980s. The family of testers were branded as "Sentry", "Sentinel" and "Series10" ( maybe some others ). The FST-2 was a 24-bit machine with its memory interleaved between odd and even addreses. When the CPU was reading/writing to an odd address, a peripheral could address an even address and vice-versa using DMA. Early machines were booted from tape, but newer machines had a PROM boot board which allowed booting from 8" floppy, hard-disk, tape ( and possibly a network. ) Early machines had 25 bit wide memory with a parity bit, while the later machines had 30 bit wide memory which provided error detection and correction. Control of the tester was via two busses known as the long-register bus and the short-register bus. If you come across an FST-2 which can be powered up, set the console switches ( piano keys ) to 06760000 in octal and press STOP, RESET, LDP, LDC and START. The machine should waken up. There are a few stand-alone FST-2s kicking around without any tester hardware. These were used as a FACTOR compiler co-processor for a development system which was based on the HP1000. Most FST-2s will be part of a chip tester. If the chip tester is still working, the whole system is still quite valuable. Even as a source of spares. Although the tester has a lot of different power supplies the FST-2 probably ony needs 5.0V and the RS-232 voltages to get running. The FST-2 ran an OS named M3 ( "M Cubed" ) and was programmed using a FORTRAN-like language named FACTOR, ( Fairchild Algorithmic Compiler Tester ORiented. ) Most Sentry testers could test digital chips with 60 pins up to 10 MHz. Some later Sentrys could test up to 120 pins at 20 MHz. I remember FST-2s being very slow to compile FACTOR programs. Most users ended up compiling their program and test patterns ( Vectors/Truth-Tables ) on a VAX. Fairchild ( and later Schlumberger ) provided really good in-depth training and documentation for the CPU and the testers for hardware maintenance and programming. The manuals which were up for grabs were either manuals/schematics which were shipped with a tester, or training manuals which some engineer picked up in San Jose or Munich. From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 24 23:17:09 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Fairchild FST-2? In-Reply-To: <3C2746D1.126B195B@freeuk.com> from "Neil Macmillan" at Dec 24, 2001 03:16:33 PM Message-ID: <200112250517.fBP5H9V18800@narnia.int.dittman.net> [Going from memory] > The Fairchild FST-2 computer was used to control a family of > Semiconductor ( chip ) testers I guess from sometime in the mid 1970s to > around the mid 1980s. The family of testers were branded as "Sentry", > "Sentinel" and "Series10" ( maybe some others ). The Sentry 20 and 21 were the last testers that used the FST-2. I programmed them for a few years. The Sentry 15, 50, and 90 were completely different systems (and developed later than the Sentinel and Sentry 10). > The FST-2 was a 24-bit machine with its memory interleaved between odd > and even addreses. When the CPU was reading/writing to an odd address, a > peripheral could address an even address and vice-versa using DMA. Early > machines were booted from tape, but newer machines had a PROM boot board > which allowed booting from 8" floppy, hard-disk, tape ( and possibly a > network. ) Early machines had 25 bit wide memory with a parity bit, > while the later machines had 30 bit wide memory which provided error > detection and correction. Control of the tester was via two busses known > as the long-register bus and the short-register bus. I seem to remember that network booting wasn't available, but you could boot a minimal system from tape and load the rest over the network. We had RAM disks in our systems that we booted from, so the only time we had to boot from tape was when we had to power the system down or change from M3 to the diags. When we had FASTNET added we changed to load most of the files over the network for either M3 or the diags and that sped things up significantly. > If you come across an FST-2 which can be powered up, set the console > switches ( piano keys ) to 06760000 in octal and press STOP, RESET, LDP, > LDC and START. The machine should waken up. There are a few stand-alone > FST-2s kicking around without any tester hardware. These were used as a > FACTOR compiler co-processor for a development system which was based on > the HP1000. Most FST-2s will be part of a chip tester. If the chip > tester is still working, the whole system is still quite valuable. Even > as a source of spares. The HP was phased out later in favor of a VAX 11/750 (and later a MicroVAX II). The testers could load test files over serial from the HP and either serial or FASTNET with the VAX systems. We eventually upgraded from a MVII to a MicroVAX 3900 (the fastest system FASTNET could run from as it used a DRV-11W and the driver wouldn't work on a VAX 4000 system due to the changes in the Q-BUS timing). > Although the tester has a lot of different power supplies the FST-2 > probably ony needs 5.0V and the RS-232 voltages to get running. > > The FST-2 ran an OS named M3 ( "M Cubed" ) and was programmed using a > FORTRAN-like language named FACTOR, ( Fairchild Algorithmic Compiler > Tester ORiented. ) Most Sentry testers could test digital chips with 60 > pins up to 10 MHz. Some later Sentrys could test up to 120 pins at 20 > MHz. I remember FST-2s being very slow to compile FACTOR programs. Most > users ended up compiling their program and test patterns ( > Vectors/Truth-Tables ) on a VAX. Actually M3 was a follow-on to an earlier OS (I think it was called Flopsy- Dopsy, but I can't remember the real name). M3 was developed by IBM and sold to Fairchild. The Sentry 20 and 21 testers could test at 20MHz. The biggest difference between the two systems was the timing accuracy. You could also get the systems in a high-speed or high-voltage configuration. The HV configuration allowed higher voltages, but lower timing accuracy (slower rise and fall times on the timing generators). FACTOR was an interesting language. You could also write programs in assembly language, and also write programs to execute in local memory in machine language (which is not local memory on the FST-2, but local memory in the test head). > Fairchild ( and later Schlumberger ) provided really good in-depth > training and documentation for the CPU and the testers for hardware > maintenance and programming. The manuals which were up for grabs were > either manuals/schematics which were shipped with a tester, or training > manuals which some engineer picked up in San Jose or Munich. I think I may still have my manuals somewhere, but I may have thrown them out. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 24 11:05:38 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: from Doc at "Dec 22, 1 01:42:54 pm" Message-ID: <200112241705.JAA09446@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > This reminds me. Is there any picture gallery of major RS/6K models? I > > might be getting two in a month or so for the cost of 'haul-it-away'. I > > used to in fact work on them as a user, but all I remember about their > > appearance was they were about 2' tall, had a bright yellow reset? button, > > a keylock, and a floppy drive. This tells me nothing, really :-) > Nice catch! > Since you didn't mention extra-wide, I'm guessing that was an F-series > 7025, or maybe one of the C-series. If it was about the size of a > 2-drawer file-cabinet overall, then a 7013-series. The MCA RS6ks all > had bright yellow resets, and keylocks. The best source I know for info > is: Actually, after some research, they appear to be Powerserver 580s (we think, possibly 560s). Any gotchas here? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- In memory of Bob Crane ----------------------------------------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 24 12:13:56 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: <200112241705.JAA09446@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Actually, after some research, they appear to be Powerserver 580s (we > think, possibly 560s). Any gotchas here? That would be the 7013-560 or 7013-580. They're both dandy machines. They like lots o' ram, but the 560 is pretty fast, considering the era, and the 580 is downright zippy. Both are stump-pullers - you can load them beyond all reason. If I recall correctly, they are fairly straightforward boxen. My 550 and the 7012-355 I once had both required terminators to the external scsi interface. These are an oddball connector, not easy to come across. You do need the keys. If you can't get them, force or drill the lock on the REAR panel. That is a straight mechanical barrel, and controls physical access to the entire innards, including the front lock barrel. The serial ports on the 560 & I _think_ the 580 are standard 25-pin rs232; no probs there. There are a couple of 64M memory boards on ebay right now -- if you're ever going to juke them up, $25 USD each ain't bad. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1313304861 He doesn't list the 560 as compatible, but I don't think that list can be right anyway. If I were going to bid, I'd ask the seller for the FRU P/N of the ram _card_, as well as the simms, and look it up in the service diagnostics manual. The machines are all listed in the memory compatibility section, with all boards & SIMMs they accept. Also whether they want 1, 2, or 4 card groups. I keep hearing that if you install >v4 AIX you can use a regular PS/2 keyboard. I've not gotten that to happen, but I may well have missed something. If your standard keyboard won't work, you need not only an IBM keyboard, but one of 2 or 3 specific models. The point being "Try real hard to end up with their original kbd & mouse". I think I have both models if you need specific FRU #s. That guy will boot from most any 8mm DAT drive, a very limited range of CD-ROM drives (Plextor is your friend) or from a remote server. Of course, you have to boot into service mode to set up remote boot.... I haven't tried on my 550, but I'm near positive AIX v5.x will still run. I know v4.3.3 will. BTW, 5.0 & 5.1 are significantly faster than 4.x on the slower machines. I've also heard that they are very ESD-sensitive in general. I wear a wrist-strap anyway, more out of superstition than anything else, so I dunno. I also have (I think) a full set of diagnostic disks for the 7013s. The binder they're in got a little damp during the November flood, but I think it was just damp, not direct wetting. And yes, Sridhar, I'll make you a copy too. I've had to drill the locks on a couple, so I can give details with that if you need, and I have some parts/pieces lying around. Including harddrive sleds, body parts, maybe a floppy drive & sled or two. Have fun! Doc From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 24 18:18:54 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: from Doc at "Dec 24, 1 12:13:56 pm" Message-ID: <200112250018.QAA08186@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Actually, after some research, they appear to be Powerserver 580s (we > > think, possibly 560s). Any gotchas here? > > That would be the 7013-560 or 7013-580. They're both dandy machines. > They like lots o' ram, but the 560 is pretty fast, considering the era, > and the 580 is downright zippy. Both are stump-pullers - you can load > them beyond all reason. I talked to the former sysadmin (who may get one of them) and he says they have "a lot of" RAM (at least 300MB as memory serves) and 4.1 on board. > BTW, 5.0 & 5.1 are significantly faster than 4.x on the slower > machines. Where can I get these? Does the AIX 'implied license' still hold, i.e., if you own an AIX-capable machine you have a license for AIX? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- You cannot have a science without measurement. -- R. W. Hamming ------------ From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 24 20:14:10 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: <200112250018.QAA08186@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I talked to the former sysadmin (who may get one of them) and he says they > have "a lot of" RAM (at least 300MB as memory serves) and 4.1 on board. Cool. Up & running off the bat.... > Where can I get these? Does the AIX 'implied license' still hold, i.e., if > you own an AIX-capable machine you have a license for AIX? Well.... Actually, I don't think that's the party line. the reality is more of a "don't ask, don't tell" thing. The OS has no license file, no CD or reg key or any of that crap, though, and I've never heard of IBM spanking a **private** user who borrowed a copy of AIX. The party line with 4.3.2 and 4.3.3 is that IBM would sell you a "non-commercial, educational" 2-user-licensed copy for the price of the media. $50 USD. 4-cd base set, 2-cd bonus pack, 2-cd docs, trial version of Oracle & Db2. I dunno if that's still in force for 5.1. However, trying to *order* that was one of the most Abbott&Costello routines I ever experienced. It's a pretty long story. Feel free to move on. I had bought a 7248-132 from MT Leasing, in Ohio. I called IBM sales & tols them I wanted to buy the non-commercial set of AIX. They passed me on to the AIX Sales Group. The following is as close to verbatim as I can recall: Them: Welcome to IBM's AIX Solutions Group. What company are you with? Me: No company. This is for me personally. Them: OK. What company does the RS/6000 belong to? Me: Me. I own it personally. Them: And how will we bill this? Me: MasterCard. Them: The total charges will be $950 plus state sales tax. Me: No. I said I wanted to order the non-commercial, educational version. Them: We don't do that. Me: Your website says that you do. Them: I never heard of such a thing. Me: The URL is Them: May I have your phone number? I have to verify this, and find out how to do it. We'll call you back as soon as possible. Two Days Later: Them: This is John with IBM's AIX Sales Group. You had inquired about the educational license for AIX version 4.3.3? Me: Hi. Yes, I did. Them: OK. We checked that out and it _is_ our policy. So you don't need anything from us. AIX installs with the 2-user license in place. Me: Well, I need the media. The URL I gave you states that you'll ship for the price of the media. Them: Hold on. <25 minute hold> Them: Mr. Shipley, can we reach you again at this number? Next Day: Them: This is John with IBM's AIX Sales Group. We have some more information concerning your request. Me: Cool. What'd you find out? Them: Well, that promo is valid, but it's only available to students and private users. I see you're in Austin; we already have a licensing agreement with University of Texas, so you shouldn't need anything from us. Me: This isn't for UT. Them: But your profile with us says you're a UT employee. Me: I am. But this is not connected to UT. This is for my private use. Them: But if you're using a UT computer, their AIX license is valid. Me: It's not a UT computer. It's my computer. Them: Yes, but it's assigned to you by the University of Texas, right? Me: No. This computer belongs solely to me. I own it. I *bought* it. For me. Them: You personally **own** an RS/6000? Me: Yes. It's sitting on my kitchen table. Them: Um. Could I get the model number and serial number from you? <5 minute hold> Them: OK, Mr. Shipley. So you're with ACME Construction, Dayton Ohio? Me: Huh!?@? Them: We have this computer registered to ACME Construct.... Me: NO! This is MY computer. I bought it from Midwest technology and Leasing, who are based in Ohio. I assume this is a unit retired from a lease, probably that construction company. But it is not theirs. It is mine. I can fax you copies of the invoice, the money order I paid with, and the shipping manifest if you like. Them: You _bought_ an RS/6000? For your _own_ use? Me-in-my-head: Hey! You're pretty quick, ain't ya? Me: Yes. And I'd like to put AIX version 4.3.3 on it. And I'd like for you to license that and ship it to me for the price of the media. Them: I don't think we do that. Me: I thought we already decided we DO do that. Them: But there couldn't be a maintenance contract or *anything*. Me: May I speak with your supervisor? Them: Can I have someone call you back? Four Hours Later: Them: Mr Shipley? This is Mr. Doe. I'm a manager with IBM's AIX Solutions Group. I understand you're having some trouble ordering software for your RS/6000? Me: Yes, I am. Thank you for calling. Them: I don't have your company listed here. What company are you with? Me: This is not for any company. This is for a 7248-132 that I own and would *like* to use personally. Them: Oh. $950 is a little expensive for a personal OS, isn't it? Me: Your website advertises a personal-use, non-commercial set of AIX v4.3.2 for the price of the media. Fifty dollars US. Them: Well. It appears that we do. May I have your mailing address? Me-in-my-head: YAY!!!! Them: And I'll transfer you to our Fulfillment Desk to arrange the billing and shipping. Billing: Mr Shipley! Hi! This is Anne with IBM Fulfillment. I have an order from the AIX guys for you? Me: Yes. Billing: And what company is this for? Me: No company. It's for me. Billing: Yes, but what company do we BILL this to? Me-in-my-head: AAAAGGGHH!!!!! A week later I get a 17-page contract from IBM in the mail, basically an expanded, slightly less restricted version of the standard software EULA, which states 3 times that this is strictly for non-commercial use, and no less than 4 (four) times that I understand completely that I get no software support, hardware support, nor maintenance contract from IBM for my $50 USD. I sign in four places and fax it to IBM, per instructions. Two weeks later, I get the whole AIX v4.3.2 distribution, complete with Bonus Pack, Update CD, and hard-copy documentation. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 12:17:20 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: 720k floppy thanks In-Reply-To: <187.f54aaf.295821c1@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 Golemancd@aol.com wrote: > i tryed the thing where u cover the extra hole on a 1.44 > oddly enough it actually works. > pretty cool . > so i am using a 1.44 in my 720k drive on my tanky 1000 hx Covering the hole lets you turn a good quality 750 Oerstedt 1.4M diskette into a usable, but POOR quality, 720K diskette (which SHOULD be about 600 Oerstedt). The difference in coercivity is close enough that you can "GET AWAY WITH IT" (unlike the 300 v 600 difference between 360K and 1.2M). If your data matters to you, try to find some of the right ones. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 24 14:22:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: 720k floppy thanks In-Reply-To: <12a.99920c0.29581047@aol.com> from "Golemancd@aol.com" at Dec 23, 1 11:59:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 954 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011224/33344cc9/attachment.ksh From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Dec 24 12:29:12 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Fw: Looking for new home: VAX6620 + VAX6530 cluster Message-ID: <017a01c18ca8$e3ac5180$84469280@Y5F3Q8> This looked too good to not pass it along! Please reply to original poster-- I just saw it on c.o.v and am not involved. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Franklin" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.vms Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 11:32 AM Subject: Looking for new home: VAX6620 + VAX6530 cluster > Crossposted alt.folklore.computers and comp.os.vms, I only monitor > alt.folklore.computers, so leave that one in. Feel free to post it to > other interested groups or mailing lists. > > > Just got a mail from an colleague, that his employers 2 machine > VAX cluster that is about to be scrapped. > > AFAIK they are to be given away for free, the new owner arranges > and payes for transport (read: truck). > > Place to fetch them from is network building of University Hospital > of University Zurich, Switzerland. > > > System data, as mailed from him: > > 1 VAX 6620 W77xH155xD80cm > 1 VAX 6530 W77xH155xD80cm > 1 HSC50 W54xH107xD80cm > 1 StorageWorks W76xH170xD88cm > containing: 1 TSZ07 tape unit > 2 HSJ40 controllers > 29 4GByte SCSI disks > 13 power supply modules > 1 Infoserver 100 > 1 MA-50 tape controller W48xH13xD55cm > with 2 Exabyte tape units > > There is also an VT320 to go, but I am having that. > > > This stuff must be gone before 2002.02.11, and he must have an firm > commitment before mid 2002.01 (else he will be ordering removal service). > > > -- > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer > - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 24 12:52:49 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <004401c18be6$8e3a2a00$84469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > On a side note, if you plan to run NetBSD there is a little known > misfeature: it will frob something in the flash that the prom doesn't like, > and forever after (until someone finds out what it's tweaking and fixes it) > it will throw a non-fatal error in (IIRC) SYS, which will (or so I've been > told-- I don't run this machine just now) keep it from booting > automatically. Starting VMS doesn't seem to fix it, altho there seems to be > no other impact. It looks like you're saying that, having booted NetBSD, I can no longer run the VS4000 headless? Right now, set to serial console, it won't even post until I power up the serial terminal. And on this box, powering down the VT420 is a guaranteed halt. Have I misconfigured something, or am I stuck with this? The 3100 m38 autoboots NetBSD quite happily with no console attached. Since the hardware notes at NetBSD didn't give any warnings, I sort ofexpected the same. Doc From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Dec 24 13:36:58 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions References: Message-ID: <01b901c18cb2$5ab89c80$84469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 01:52 PM Subject: Re: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions > > It looks like you're saying that, having booted NetBSD, I can no longer > run the VS4000 headless? Right now, set to serial console, it won't even > post until I power up the serial terminal. And on this box, powering > down the VT420 is a guaranteed halt. Have I misconfigured something, or > am I stuck with this? > The 3100 m38 autoboots NetBSD quite happily with no console attached. > Since the hardware notes at NetBSD didn't give any warnings, I sort > ofexpected the same. >From what I have heard, seen, and possibly mis-remembered or -understood, having once run NetBSD on a VaxStation 4000-90 (and possibly similar models such as the -60 an -vlc) you will need to manually enter 'boot' at the >>> console prompt, as the SYS subsystem fails a minor (possibly checksum) test. I haven't experimented with this much at all, other than a test-boot of VMS to see if it would correct whatever might be wrong. I have not attempted to set any kind of automatic boot/halt/whatever flag to see if it really *does* halt the boot process. Chuck McManis may have a better idea of what is going on, ISTR he was looking into it. There are a number of knowlegable people on port-vax@netbsd.org who will have better answers than I. I'm nearly in a position to bring my VAX cluster online (VAX 6000-320, VAXstation 4000-90, VAXstation 3100-40, & soon a VAX 4000-200) so I will be more interested in making the m90 boot headless in the Not Too Distant future, and I'll probably take a look at the code myself. Not that this is any indication of my programming skills (or lack thereof!), but more eyes can't hurt anything. > > Doc Bob From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Mon Dec 24 16:40:27 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <01b901c18cb2$5ab89c80$84469280@Y5F3Q8> References: <01b901c18cb2$5ab89c80$84469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: <1009233628.12914.0.camel@silke> Hello, Just my 2 cents: It's only the 4000/9x that gets so confused by the NetBSD booter that it won't boot unattended anymore. It will throw a "SYS"-error (0200). My 4000/60 is happy with NetBSD, booting all the way to whatever OS i throw at it. Just don't POWER DOWN your terminal while connected. This will be interpreted as a break on the console line, which throws you into the console monitor, just like a HALT. Disconnect your terminal. As a proof, this email is sent to the list via my 4000/60, running NetBSD without a console terminal attached. (Some proof, i know ... 8-) The 4000/vlc works just as well. To get the 4000/60 autobooting you have to have SET BOOT dka0 (or whatever your system disk is) SET HALT 1 SET BFLG 0 Most NetBSD's up to 1.5.2 garble the "HALT" setting on shutdown, so you should check this ("SHOW HALT"). Valid values are: 3: Machine halts on powerup (Manual boot) 2: Automatic reboot 1: Automatic restart 0: same as 2 "Automatic restart" is usually the default, since it tells the VAX to try to quickly recover from e.g. a power failure. Try 0 or 2 as well. If all this does not help, you might have a dead battery. But you should get some error on powerup then. Hope this helps Michael Schneider (ms) On Mon, 2001-12-24 at 20:36, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doc" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 01:52 PM > Subject: Re: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions > > > > > > It looks like you're saying that, having booted NetBSD, I can no longer > > run the VS4000 headless? Right now, set to serial console, it won't even > > post until I power up the serial terminal. And on this box, powering > > down the VT420 is a guaranteed halt. Have I misconfigured something, or > > am I stuck with this? > > The 3100 m38 autoboots NetBSD quite happily with no console attached. > > Since the hardware notes at NetBSD didn't give any warnings, I sort > > ofexpected the same. > > >From what I have heard, seen, and possibly mis-remembered or -understood, > having once run NetBSD on a VaxStation 4000-90 (and possibly similar models > such as the -60 an -vlc) you will need to manually enter 'boot' at the >>> > console prompt, as the SYS subsystem fails a minor (possibly checksum) test. > I haven't experimented with this much at all, other than a test-boot of VMS > to see if it would correct whatever might be wrong. I have not attempted to > set any kind of automatic boot/halt/whatever flag to see if it really *does* > halt the boot process. Chuck McManis may have a better idea of what is > going on, ISTR he was looking into it. There are a number of knowlegable > people on port-vax@netbsd.org who will have better answers than I. > > I'm nearly in a position to bring my VAX cluster online (VAX 6000-320, > VAXstation 4000-90, VAXstation 3100-40, & soon a VAX 4000-200) so I will be > more interested in making the m90 boot headless in the Not Too Distant > future, and I'll probably take a look at the code myself. Not that this is > any indication of my programming skills (or lack thereof!), but more eyes > can't hurt anything. > > > > > Doc > > Bob > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 24 17:25:17 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <1009233628.12914.0.camel@silke> Message-ID: On 24 Dec 2001, Michael Schneider wrote: > To get the 4000/60 autobooting you have to have > > SET BOOT dka0 (or whatever your system disk is) > SET HALT 1 > SET BFLG 0 > > Most NetBSD's up to 1.5.2 garble the "HALT" setting on shutdown, so you > should check this ("SHOW HALT"). Valid values are: > > 3: Machine halts on powerup (Manual boot) > 2: Automatic reboot > 1: Automatic restart > 0: same as 2 Ah-hah! This one has HALT set to 3. I haven't found any docs or online info about the nvram settings or post messages. Thanks, I'll try this. Doc From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Mon Dec 24 16:46:41 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <01b901c18cb2$5ab89c80$84469280@Y5F3Q8> References: <01b901c18cb2$5ab89c80$84469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: <1009234006.28712.3.camel@silke> Hello, Just my 2 cents: It's only the 4000/9x that gets so confused by the NetBSD booter that it won't boot unattended anymore. It will throw a "SYS"-error (0200). My 4000/60 is happy with NetBSD, booting all the way to whatever OS i throw at it. Just don't POWER DOWN your terminal while connected. This will be interpreted as a break on the console line, which throws you into the console monitor, just like a HALT. Disconnect your terminal. As a proof, this email is sent to the list via my 4000/60, running NetBSD without a console terminal attached. (Some proof, i know ... 8-) The 4000/vlc works just as well. To get the 4000/60 autobooting you have to have SET BOOT dka0 (or whatever your system disk is) SET HALT 1 SET BFLG 0 Most NetBSD's up to 1.5.2 garble the "HALT" setting on shutdown, so you should check this ("SHOW HALT"). Valid values are: 3: Machine halts on powerup (Manual boot) 2: Automatic reboot 1: Automatic restart 0: same as 2 "Automatic restart" is usually the default, since it tells the VAX to try to quickly recover from e.g. a power failure. Try 0 or 2 as well. If all this does not help, you might have a dead battery. But you should get some error on powerup then. Hope this helps Michael Schneider (ms) On Mon, 2001-12-24 at 20:36, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doc" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 01:52 PM > Subject: Re: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions > > > > > > It looks like you're saying that, having booted NetBSD, I can no longer > > run the VS4000 headless? Right now, set to serial console, it won't even > > post until I power up the serial terminal. And on this box, powering > > down the VT420 is a guaranteed halt. Have I misconfigured something, or > > am I stuck with this? > > The 3100 m38 autoboots NetBSD quite happily with no console attached. > > Since the hardware notes at NetBSD didn't give any warnings, I sort > > ofexpected the same. > > >From what I have heard, seen, and possibly mis-remembered or -understood, > having once run NetBSD on a VaxStation 4000-90 (and possibly similar models > such as the -60 an -vlc) you will need to manually enter 'boot' at the >>> > console prompt, as the SYS subsystem fails a minor (possibly checksum) test. > I haven't experimented with this much at all, other than a test-boot of VMS > to see if it would correct whatever might be wrong. I have not attempted to > set any kind of automatic boot/halt/whatever flag to see if it really *does* > halt the boot process. Chuck McManis may have a better idea of what is > going on, ISTR he was looking into it. There are a number of knowlegable > people on port-vax@netbsd.org who will have better answers than I. > > I'm nearly in a position to bring my VAX cluster online (VAX 6000-320, > VAXstation 4000-90, VAXstation 3100-40, & soon a VAX 4000-200) so I will be > more interested in making the m90 boot headless in the Not Too Distant > future, and I'll probably take a look at the code myself. Not that this is > any indication of my programming skills (or lack thereof!), but more eyes > can't hurt anything. > > > > > Doc > > Bob > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Dec 24 17:15:53 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions References: <01b901c18cb2$5ab89c80$84469280@Y5F3Q8> <1009234006.28712.3.camel@silke> Message-ID: <001601c18cd0$effb6200$b5469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schneider" To: Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 05:46 PM Subject: Re: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions > Hello, > > Just my 2 cents: > > It's only the 4000/9x that gets so confused by the NetBSD booter that it > won't boot unattended anymore. It will throw a "SYS"-error (0200). I can only verify that it does cause an error on the m90. A relief for those with other models, I guess. It doesn't get too confused, tho-- just enought that it doesn't want to boot alone, not to the point that it *can't* boot. :/ > > My 4000/60 is happy with NetBSD, booting all the way to whatever OS i > throw at it. Just don't POWER DOWN your terminal while connected. > This will be interpreted as a break on the console line, which throws > you into the console monitor, just like a HALT. > Disconnect your terminal. > As a proof, this email is sent to the list via my 4000/60, running > NetBSD without a console terminal attached. (Some proof, i know ... 8-) > The 4000/vlc works just as well. If you really want to keep a terminal attached and still want to be able to power it up and down, the addition of a pulldown(up?) resistor on the rx pin of the VAXstation should allow that. If it was done inside say a serial breakout box, it would be easy to remove as well. > > To get the 4000/60 autobooting you have to have > > SET BOOT dka0 (or whatever your system disk is) > SET HALT 1 > SET BFLG 0 I *knew* there were some more settings, but for the life of me I couldn't remember! > > Most NetBSD's up to 1.5.2 garble the "HALT" setting on shutdown, so you > should check this ("SHOW HALT"). Valid values are: > > 3: Machine halts on powerup (Manual boot) > 2: Automatic reboot > 1: Automatic restart > 0: same as 2 > > "Automatic restart" is usually the default, since it tells the VAX to > try to quickly recover from e.g. a power failure. Try 0 or 2 as well. > > If all this does not help, you might have a dead battery. But you should > get some error on powerup then. > > Hope this helps > > Michael Schneider (ms) Bob > > > > On Mon, 2001-12-24 at 20:36, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doc" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 01:52 PM > > Subject: Re: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions > > > > > > > > > > It looks like you're saying that, having booted NetBSD, I can no longer > > > run the VS4000 headless? Right now, set to serial console, it won't even > > > post until I power up the serial terminal. And on this box, powering > > > down the VT420 is a guaranteed halt. Have I misconfigured something, or > > > am I stuck with this? > > > The 3100 m38 autoboots NetBSD quite happily with no console attached. > > > Since the hardware notes at NetBSD didn't give any warnings, I sort > > > ofexpected the same. > > > > >From what I have heard, seen, and possibly mis-remembered or -understood, > > having once run NetBSD on a VaxStation 4000-90 (and possibly similar models > > such as the -60 an -vlc) you will need to manually enter 'boot' at the >>> > > console prompt, as the SYS subsystem fails a minor (possibly checksum) test. > > I haven't experimented with this much at all, other than a test-boot of VMS > > to see if it would correct whatever might be wrong. I have not attempted to > > set any kind of automatic boot/halt/whatever flag to see if it really *does* > > halt the boot process. Chuck McManis may have a better idea of what is > > going on, ISTR he was looking into it. There are a number of knowlegable > > people on port-vax@netbsd.org who will have better answers than I. > > > > I'm nearly in a position to bring my VAX cluster online (VAX 6000-320, > > VAXstation 4000-90, VAXstation 3100-40, & soon a VAX 4000-200) so I will be > > more interested in making the m90 boot headless in the Not Too Distant > > future, and I'll probably take a look at the code myself. Not that this is > > any indication of my programming skills (or lack thereof!), but more eyes > > can't hurt anything. > > > > > > > > Doc > > > > Bob > > > > > -- > Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de > Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de > > People disagree with me. I just ignore them. > (Linus Torvalds) From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 24 17:44:40 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <1009234006.28712.3.camel@silke> Message-ID: On 24 Dec 2001, Michael Schneider wrote: > Disconnect your terminal. > As a proof, this email is sent to the list via my 4000/60, running > NetBSD without a console terminal attached. (Some proof, i know ... 8-) > The 4000/vlc works just as well. > > To get the 4000/60 autobooting you have to have > > SET BOOT dka0 (or whatever your system disk is) > SET HALT 1 > SET BFLG 0 It works. :^) The "disconnect your terminal" part was the thing. I find it odd that the box won't even finish power-up diags if the terminal is connected and turned off. Doc From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Dec 24 18:26:39 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions Message-ID: In a message dated 12/24/01 6:51:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, doc@mdrconsult.com writes: > The "disconnect your terminal" part was the thing. I find it odd that > the box won't even finish power-up diags if the terminal is connected > and turned off. > > Doc > That's not so odd.. The exact same thing happens with my 3 vs3100m35's, my vs3500, all my Decstations and my Alphastation as well.. I just leave them completely headless for the most part, and the ones I need a head on always have a terminal connected and running. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 24 13:52:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: 720k floppy In-Reply-To: <3C26632C.FCECB8FA@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Dec 23, 1 04:05:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 444 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011224/4b75df8c/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 24 16:46:17 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: 720k floppy In-Reply-To: <197.38d72b.2957cba9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 Golemancd@aol.com wrote: > anyone know where i can find some 720k floppies > thanks > Joee Drives or diskettes? - don From djg at drs-esg.com Mon Dec 24 17:23:02 2001 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: M8650 async board problem Message-ID: <200112242323.SAA32105@drs-esg.com> One more thing you might want to watch out for with excessive +5 voltage drop on an 8/E is the 5V fuse. I have mine almost full of cards and the fuse holder melted. I have a maintenance handbook (which I got after the failure) which said that this was a known problem. I measured the current draw and found it was slightly above the power supply rating so added another supply to power half the backplane. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 25 01:45:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: old TEK 4662 plotter References: <20011225072639.47768.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002501c18d18$1f3b5c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm interested in looking at drawings of the TEK 4662 digital plotter mechanical drawings. Could anybody point me to a site from which I can download the drawings? thanks, Dick From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 12:09:16 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Good way to archive system disks In-Reply-To: <3C26BD2F.3BDF0534@mich.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Dave Mabry wrote: > I think I've still got a problem doing this, though. The 5 1/4 inch > diskettes that I want to image are 96 tpi and standard PC diskette > drives are 48 tpi. Although the 1.2M AT-style ones were 96 tpi. Not > sure if I can make one of them work. That might be worth a try. It is POSSIBLE to read 720K 5.25" using a 1.2M drive. But there can be complications, particularly with overly "smart" inflexible Wintel style BIOS's. But a 720K 5.25" drive will work nicely on most machines; the computer will think that it is a 720K 3.5". > Another obstacle is that 440BX chipsets only control one floppy drive. > I don't have an older PC that can control two floppy drives. Am I > missing something here? You would be missing the joys of using a classic computer. Get something a little older, such as a 5150 for the 720Ks, and life is so much nicer. > The 8 inch diskettes are Intel's somewhat unique M2FM, not the more > standard MFM. So I doubt that there is any diskette controller for the > PC that would read them. True. But, ... in theory, ... perhaps, ... The Catweasel is theoretically capable, but there isn't appropriate software available. or The Central Point Option Board was theoretically capable, but there isn't appropriate software available, AND programming info is trade secret, therefore reverse-engineered or stolen. > What I was hoping for was a program that would run under CP/M on the > target machine that would allow me to make an image file of a diskette > on that machine. Then I could transfer that image file over to a PC and > put it on a CD. Thinking about it, though, I might end up with a catch > 22. In order to make a diskette from one of those images would require > a running CP/M machine. An image file would be easy to do, as a dump of the contents of all sectors. But that might not include the system tracks, and the recreation of PHYSICAL format would be a little tougher. > Are you saying below that a 96 tpi 5 1/4 inch diskette drive can plug > into a PC and be detected as a 720K 3.5 inch drive? YES. So long as it's clear that we are talking about a 5.25" 720K drive, such as Tandon TM100-4, Teac 55F, Shugart/Matsushita 465, etc. Using a 1.2M is still possible, but might have a few more complications. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 24 12:12:54 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: Good way to archive system disks In-Reply-To: <3C26C89F.11536DA3@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Check out CatWeasel on the web , they may be able to read the format. > While they has a PC card the Amiga (sp?) is better supported. It COULD do it. IF you have appropriate software. Has ANYONE ever actually SEEN any software for it? From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 24 07:57:17 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:39 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: <20011224083928.A26984@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of William S . > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 11:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: I'm back!!!! > > > Ernest, > > I like the site. Where are you located that you acquired > the items from Europe. > > The Televideo 950 Terminal looks alot like the > DEC vt100 I once had and used with a 300 baud > (or was it 1200 baud) external modem. > > Bill > Amsterdam, NL I'm located in Seattle. Many of the European systems that I have were bought on ebay, and shipped over from where ever they were bought from. However a few, like the Basis 108, TA Alphatronic PC, and Olympia Olytext 20 were either bought or found here in Seattle. I love my Televideo 950. It's easily the best terminal that I've ever laid fingers on. The sharp image on the screen is really beautiful, and I had to fight with my co-worker when I decided to take it home with me instead of leaving it attached to the AS/400 that I was trying it out on. The IBM terminal that came with the 400 was a painful to use after that, and it was more than 12 years newer than my 950. Does anyone know anything about that Pilara 2000. I can't find any information about it anywhere. It seems to be one of a kind. You are located in Amsterdam, right? Do you know of anyone who might have a Luxor ABC 80 for sale or trade? It's a Swedish computer but Amsterdam is a hell of a lot closer to Sweden than Seattle. :) E. From wilby98 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 10:23:30 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: ; from ernestls@attbi.com on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 05:57:17AM -0800 References: <20011224083928.A26984@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20011224172330.A13916@xs4all.nl> I have not know of anyone offhand having that item. I will keep my eyes open and let you know if somethings available. Bill On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 05:57:17AM -0800, Ernest wrote: > > You are located in Amsterdam, right? Do you know of anyone who > might have a Luxor ABC 80 for sale or trade? It's a Swedish > computer but Amsterdam is a hell of a lot closer to Sweden than > Seattle. :) > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Mon Dec 24 10:18:54 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: <20011224083928.A26984@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 24-Dec-2001 William S . wrote: > Ernest, > > I like the site. Where are you located that you acquired > the items from Europe. > > The Televideo 950 Terminal looks alot like the > DEC vt100 I once had and used with a 300 baud > (or was it 1200 baud) external modem. TVI950 terminals are visual clones of DEC terminals, but the control codes are not the same. I have one that came with a MIPS M-120 I was given. -Philip From pat at purdueriots.com Mon Dec 24 11:02:03 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > On 24-Dec-2001 William S . wrote: > > The Televideo 950 Terminal looks alot like the > > DEC vt100 I once had and used with a 300 baud > > (or was it 1200 baud) external modem. > > TVI950 terminals are visual clones of DEC terminals, but the control codes > are not the same. I have one that came with a MIPS M-120 I was given. > IIRC, you could actaully download software from a Televideo Z80 CP/M computer onto those terminals and it would execute on the terminal (like a diskless box). However I could be thinking of a different Televideo terminal. My dad (an optometerist) had a few of those with the Televideo system for a database system, and when the computer went down, the terminals got sold off to another business still using the same system. :( I'd love to get my hands on one of those old beasts. If I'm really lucky I still have the manual for those terminals... though after my parents moved I'm not too hopeful. -- Pat From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Mon Dec 24 11:18:17 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 24-Dec-2001 Pat Finnegan wrote: > IIRC, you could actaully download software from a Televideo Z80 CP/M > computer onto those terminals and it would execute on the terminal (like > a diskless box). However I could be thinking of a different Televideo > terminal. *That* would be cool. However, I've just discovered (by pulling out the manual to see if it describes this function) that I have a 925, not a 950. > I'd love to get my hands on one of those old beasts. If I'm really > lucky I still have the manual for those terminals... though after my > parents moved I'm not too hopeful. My TVI925 is looking for a good home. :) Only caveat is that the image flickers. I believe this is because the brightnes pot is dirty and a little shot of contact cleaner would fix the problem. Other problem is that it's in southern Qu?bec... shipping would probably be $$$. Unless someone wants to come pick it up? -Philip From pat at purdueriots.com Mon Dec 24 10:52:00 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > Well, there were suddenly 37 active connections all trying to get it. Ouch. > No wonder it bombed on you. Keep trying if you get a server busy error. The > activity should slow down. > > Comments on the site, anyone? > > E. OK, I'll bite since you DID ask... Pretty good layout I'd say. And I must say I love the use of IIS and Javascript... oh wait did I say love? No, thats not the word... oh yes. I frown upon it. I would wish that at least SOME geeks would avoid using sh*t software. Even Apache on NT is better... :( -- Pat PS. Yes. I'm a Slackware Linux Zealot! http://www.slackware.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 11:51:07 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: RE: I'm back!!!! (Pat Finnegan) References: Message-ID: <15399.27403.906104.567051@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 24, Pat Finnegan wrote: > And I must say I love the use of IIS and Javascript... oh wait did I say > love? No, thats not the word... oh yes. I frown upon it. > > I would wish that at least SOME geeks would avoid using sh*t software. > Even Apache on NT is better... Personally I don't find anything wrong with Javascript; at least it's not a crappy microsoftism. But certainly nobody with even half a clue should be running IIS. I still think it's a really nice website though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 24 12:32:40 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: <15399.27403.906104.567051@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 9:51 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: I'm back!!!! > Personally I don't find anything wrong with Javascript; at least it's > not a crappy microsoftism. But certainly nobody with even half a clue > should be running IIS. > > I still think it's a really nice website though. FYI, I've already begun converting the site to PHP/Apache but like I said, I'm not a programmer or a web developer so it's a slow job for me. I orginally built the site in ASP because I worked with an ASP developer that I could ask questions about areas that I was stuck on. It was simply a learning experience for me -that's all. Since I had a working page, I decided to put it up for display while I worked on my PHP conversion. You guys crack me up -complaining and lecturing about the evils of IIS. Just take a look at the page for crying out loud, and forget about whether or not it's running on Linux or Windows. I couldn't care less about your opinions on IIS or Apache. I'll move it to a linux server as soon as I can. I'm a newb at webpage stuff, so give me fucking break. E. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 12:44:07 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: RE: I'm back!!!! (Ernest) References: <15399.27403.906104.567051@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15399.30583.85537.30183@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 24, Ernest wrote: > You guys crack me up -complaining and lecturing about the evils of IIS. Just > take a > look at the page for crying out loud, and forget about whether or not it's > running on > Linux or Windows. I couldn't care less about your opinions on IIS or Apache. > I'll > move it to a linux server as soon as I can. I'm a newb at webpage stuff, so > give me > fucking break. Don't take it so personally, man... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 24 13:33:30 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > You guys crack me up -complaining and lecturing about the evils of IIS. Just > take a > look at the page for crying out loud, and forget about whether or not it's > running on > Linux or Windows. Looking at, or not being able to look at, the page is pretty much the point. For those of us who don't use Internet Exploder or Netscape, most Windows-based HTML editors render a poorly-displayed or wholly inaccessible site. My objections to IIS are not just theoretical, or even theological. Your server is popping me a cookie every time I click a link. Very occasionally cookies are useful, but only occasionally. I leave JavaScript turned off, so I can't view the detail views on your pages. In my browser, your site's frames don't align properly. Everything is legible and visible, but not particularly cohesive. Overall, it's a great first effort. Please don't take the suggestions & criticism as condemnation. It's a very intelligent design & layout, it's very simple, meaning fast to download, and attractive. Those are all qualities that all the "right" software & servers on Earth can't provide. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 24 12:20:30 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Pat Finnegan wrote: > I would wish that at least SOME geeks would avoid using sh*t software. > Even Apache on NT is better... > > :( > > -- Pat > > PS. Yes. I'm a Slackware Linux Zealot! http://www.slackware.com Now Pat. Have compassion. Not everyone has seen the light. Yet. It's amazing how many Linux User Group webpages say "Front Page" in the html source, or won't load in Lynx. So a Mac-oriented site that's on the dark-side is no surprise. Having said that, as a Recovering NT Admin, I totally agree. The Web would be a safer place without IIS. Doc From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 24 12:22:48 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pat Finnegan > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 8:52 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: I'm back!!!! > OK, I'll bite since you DID ask... > > Pretty good layout I'd say. > > And I must say I love the use of IIS and Javascript... oh wait did I say > love? No, thats not the word... oh yes. I frown upon it. > > I would wish that at least SOME geeks would avoid using sh*t software. > Even Apache on NT is better... Gee, thanks Pat. Hind sight is 20/20 I guess, and if I knew now what I knew when I built the page, I would have gone with PHP but since I am in no way, shape or form a programmer or web developer, I started with ASP and IIs. I am terribly sorry that my use of ASP caused you so much physical pain and anguish, even to the point that you couldn't see past the mechanics of the design to what I was trying to offer -simple information about my collection of old computers. I would wish that at least SOME linux snobs would grow up, and stop acting like conceited jackasses. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. E. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 24 12:40:01 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: RE: I'm back!!!! (Ernest) References: Message-ID: <15399.30337.66468.212993@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 24, Ernest wrote: > I would wish that at least SOME linux snobs would grow up, and stop acting > like conceited jackasses. I think this is less of a pro-Linux issue and more of a use-the-right-tool-for-the-job issue, which sure as hell ain't Windows if you want to put stuff on the web. But, that said, you did a great job on your site, and I like it a lot. Your choice of layout is interesting and easy to use, and I especially like the method of flipping through the photos. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 24 13:35:05 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: <15399.30337.66468.212993@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 10:40 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: I'm back!!!! > > > On December 24, Ernest wrote: > > I would wish that at least SOME linux snobs would grow up, and > stop acting > > like conceited jackasses. > > I think this is less of a pro-Linux issue and more of a > use-the-right-tool-for-the-job issue, which sure as hell ain't Windows > if you want to put stuff on the web. Whatever. > But, that said, you did a great job on your site, and I like it a > lot. Your choice of layout is interesting and easy to use, and I > especially like the method of flipping through the photos. OK, this was the kind of feedback that I was hoping for. That, or comments on the computers themselves -even mistakes that I might have made in my discriptions are welcome. I like the way the photos flip as you click on each thumb also, and if you click on the main image, as you flip through each thumb, the pic expands to 640x480 for a bigger and more clear image. It even has a graphic data entry system, rather than having to hand edit the script files/databases, etc. -to make entering new information easier. There is a menu that comes up with choices for adding new photos, thumbs, computers, catagories, etc. and it's all graphical. It's very easy to use now -not so easy to set up. Originally, I wanted to have a way for the public to add entries and photos of their own computers from home but that turned out to be more difficult than I first thought -not to mention that there would always be some loser who would spoil it for everyone by adding photos of penises or death, or some crap like that. So, I just use the graphic data entry for myself. E. From pat at purdueriots.com Mon Dec 24 15:01:37 2001 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > > OK, I'll bite since you DID ask... > > > > Pretty good layout I'd say. > > > > And I must say I love the use of IIS and Javascript... oh wait did I say > > love? No, thats not the word... oh yes. I frown upon it. > > > > I would wish that at least SOME geeks would avoid using sh*t software. > > Even Apache on NT is better... > > > Gee, thanks Pat. Hind sight is 20/20 I guess, and if I knew now what I knew > when I built the page, > I would have gone with PHP but since I am in no way, shape or form a > programmer or web developer, > I started with ASP and IIs. I am terribly sorry that my use of ASP caused > you so much physical pain > and anguish, even to the point that you couldn't see past the mechanics of > the design to what I was > trying to offer -simple information about my collection of old computers. As I said, good layout. I might not have even noticed the IIS thing if your page hadn't given an 'Im not licensed to have this many users' error. The ONLY reason I gripe about IIS is its 10,000 security holes (remember CodeRed I & II and Nimbda?). Apache has never had that much of a problem. I'm really only asking people to use BETTER software. Personally I dont care if it's thttpd on linux, something on MacOS 6, DOS 3.2, or even a PDP-1 that you stole from MIT's garbage. If you question me, the Gartner Group (sp?) has recommended that businesses switch from using IIS to other web servers becuase of all the problems that Microsoft has been having lately (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/09/24/1814256&mode=thread). And that's coming from a computer consulting group that ISN'T excessively anti-Microsoft. > > I would wish that at least SOME linux snobs would grow up, and stop acting > like conceited jackasses. > And I wish that Microsoft would stop using gurilla, unethical, and other dirty marketing tactics. I guess being a jackass is just my nature. :) > If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. > > E. > One last gripe to the list (and not you in particular). It WOULD be nice if everyone would force their email client to use a maximum of like 72 columns so that text would still be readable by those of us out there who prefer to not use 'bloated' graphical email clients. Thanks for listening. -- Pat From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Dec 24 11:27:11 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! Message-ID: In a message dated 12/24/01 9:16:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, pat@purdueriots.com writes: > IIRC, you could actaully download software from a Televideo Z80 CP/M > computer onto those terminals and it would execute on the terminal (like a > diskless box). However I could be thinking of a different Televideo > terminal. My dad (an optometerist) had a few of those with the Televideo > system for a database system, and when the computer went down, the > terminals got sold off to another business still using the same system. :( > > I'd love to get my hands on one of those old beasts. If I'm really lucky > I still have the manual for those terminals... though after my parents > moved I'm not too hopeful. > > That one is the Televideo 800 IIRC. It looks identical to the 950 but with different electronics. Downloaded the operating system from a multiuser box. I had several of them. I think I still have one of the Televideo 800 terminals in my storage locker. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011224/482e49f4/attachment.html From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Dec 24 12:28:35 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! References: Message-ID: <3C2773D3.21B19F5C@mail.verizon.net> Nice site. But I like your "rat bastard yankee"-comment the best! :) Eric Ernest wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Clint Wolff (VAX > > collector) > > > Anything of great import happen in the last two months (since > > 31-oct-01?) > > Halloween and Thanksgiving passed by quietly, Katie Curic signed a $65 > million dollar contract with the Today Show on NBC, and those rat bastard > new york yankees signed Jason Giambi to their team. Those are just a few > events to get you started. Oh, and I also finally have an old computer web > site of my own up and running. Yahoo. > > http://12.228.5.66 > > E. From ernestls at attbi.com Mon Dec 24 13:06:11 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: <3C2773D3.21B19F5C@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Chomko > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 10:29 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: I'm back!!!! > > > Nice site. But I like your "rat bastard yankee"-comment the best! (Nearly vomiting) I loath the yankees more than I can possibly put into words. It looks like they're well on their way to buying another WS ring. What I don't understand is why they don't dispense with the formalities of the regular BB season, and just offer MLB a flat $136 million for a new set of rings for their team -that or just announce outright that they've already bought the post-season umpires. I think the yankees should be banned from baseball. E. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Dec 24 13:43:34 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! References: Message-ID: <01be01c18cb3$46a15f60$84469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest" To: Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 02:06 PM Subject: RE: I'm back!!!! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Chomko > > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 10:29 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: I'm back!!!! > > > > > > Nice site. But I like your "rat bastard yankee"-comment the best! > > (Nearly vomiting) I loath the yankees more than I can possibly put > into words. It looks like they're well on their way to buying another > WS ring. What I don't understand is why they don't dispense with the > formalities of the regular BB season, and just offer MLB a flat $136 > million for a new set of rings for their team -that or just announce > outright that they've already bought the post-season umpires. > > I think the yankees should be banned from baseball. And if _that_ doesn't make the OT statement of the year, I quit! ^_^ > > E. Bob From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Dec 24 23:19:19 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! References: Message-ID: <3C280C56.FD45FAAF@mail.verizon.net> Big E, You sound like a default O's or Red Sox fan. Yes, the Yanks have cheapened the concept of WS ring. No real hatred to Torre or Jeter, as they are class acts, IMO. But the whole Yankees "team" sux, IMO. Eric Ernest wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Chomko > > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 10:29 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: I'm back!!!! > > > > > > Nice site. But I like your "rat bastard yankee"-comment the best! > > (Nearly vomiting) I loath the yankees more than I can possibly put > into words. It looks like they're well on their way to buying another > WS ring. What I don't understand is why they don't dispense with the > formalities of the regular BB season, and just offer MLB a flat $136 > million for a new set of rings for their team -that or just announce > outright that they've already bought the post-season umpires. > > I think the yankees should be banned from baseball. > > E. From vaxman at earthlink.net Mon Dec 24 15:15:07 2001 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > Well, there were suddenly 37 active connections all trying to get it. Ouch. > No wonder it bombed on you. Keep trying if you get a server busy error. The > activity should slow down. > > Comments on the site, anyone? > > E. ROFL! Now you know there are at least 37 people who read this list in real time... I'm a day late and a dollar short, so I'll browse now :) Clint > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ben Franchuk > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 4:59 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: I'm back!!!! > > > > > > Ernest wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Clint Wolff (VAX > > > > collector) > > > > > > > Anything of great import happen in the last two months (since > > > > 31-oct-01?) > > > > > > Halloween and Thanksgiving passed by quietly, Katie Curic signed a $65 > > > million dollar contract with the Today Show on NBC, and those > > rat bastard > > > new york yankees signed Jason Giambi to their team. Those are just a few > > > events to get you started. Oh, and I also finally have an old > > computer web > > > site of my own up and running. Yahoo. > > > > > > http://12.228.5.66 > > > > > > E. > > > > And of course after I send the email the page pops up! :( > > -- > > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From rschaefe at gcfn.org Tue Dec 25 02:11:54 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. References: Message-ID: <005101c18d1b$d2d21020$94469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 09:14 PM Subject: Re: RS/6000, cheap to good home. > > I had bought a 7248-132 from MT Leasing, in Ohio. I called IBM sales & > tols them I wanted to buy the non-commercial set of AIX. They passed me > on to the AIX Sales Group. The following is as close to verbatim as I > can recall: You wouldn't happen to have a URL for these guys, would you? A quick google search for MT leasing hit-- in England. I don't think that's the MT leasing you're talking about. :) > > Doc Bob From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 03:09:46 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? Message-ID: <20011225090946.96211.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of them. One of the local junk shops has a couple behind the counter. They are marked $20. I have no idea if that's a reasonable price or if they are gouging (they also have some used RTC8139-based boards next to them for $7, for comparison). Holger Kruse was considering adding support under Miami for a 3C515 on a GG2 Bus+, but at the time, 3c515 boards were unobtanium, and they wouldn't be fast, anyway. The only reason to really use an ISA 10/100 card is if you have a non-PCI machine, and your network infrastructure is 100 *only* (I have a 4-port 100BaseT hub from NetGear, for instance - it was cheap at the time). Just curious, but not curious enough to drop $20 up front. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Dec 25 06:25:02 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? References: <20011225090946.96211.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C28701E.5C00894@ccp.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of > them. One of the local junk shops has a couple behind the counter. > They are marked $20. I have no idea if that's a reasonable price or > if they are gouging (they also have some used RTC8139-based boards > next to them for $7, for comparison). > > Holger Kruse was considering adding support under Miami for a 3C515 > on a GG2 Bus+, but at the time, 3c515 boards were unobtanium, and > they wouldn't be fast, anyway. The only reason to really use an > ISA 10/100 card is if you have a non-PCI machine, and your network > infrastructure is 100 *only* (I have a 4-port 100BaseT hub from NetGear, > for instance - it was cheap at the time). > > Just curious, but not curious enough to drop $20 up front. > > -ethan > I was getting 3c505 cards for 15 per, I'd start there. $20 tops. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From ernestls at attbi.com Tue Dec 25 10:05:58 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? In-Reply-To: <20011225090946.96211.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: $20.00 is reasonable in my opinion, since these cards can be hard to find. The problem that I ran into was finding drivers for them. I'm not sure if I have a 515 or different one but the drivers were difficult or impossible to find (for MSDOS) and the setup was arcane to say the least. On the other hand, Linux might support the old stuff like this much better. What OS were you hoping to use with the card? E. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 1:10 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? > > > > There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of > them. One of the local junk shops has a couple behind the counter. > They are marked $20. I have no idea if that's a reasonable price or > if they are gouging (they also have some used RTC8139-based boards > next to them for $7, for comparison). > > Holger Kruse was considering adding support under Miami for a 3C515 > on a GG2 Bus+, but at the time, 3c515 boards were unobtanium, and > they wouldn't be fast, anyway. The only reason to really use an > ISA 10/100 card is if you have a non-PCI machine, and your network > infrastructure is 100 *only* (I have a 4-port 100BaseT hub from NetGear, > for instance - it was cheap at the time). > > Just curious, but not curious enough to drop $20 up front. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 13:14:48 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011225191448.24217.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ernest wrote: > $20.00 is reasonable in my opinion, since these cards can be hard to > find... True... these are the first I've even personally seen (they are on eBay now and again - for around $15-$25 incl shipping). > What OS were you hoping to use with the card? Well... I have no personal need for an ISA 10/100 in a WinTel box - I have a 10BaseT network with 10Base2 and 10BaseFL branches going into a port on my 10/100 switch. For old stuff, 10mbps is fine. If I were going to buy this at all, I'd see about using it with AmigaDOS (and working with Holger Kruse on an MNI driver, if he's still around) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Dec 25 11:38:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (jhellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? Message-ID: >Well... I have no personal need for an ISA 10/100 in a WinTel box - I >have a 10BaseT network with 10Base2 and 10BaseFL branches going into >a port on my 10/100 switch. For old stuff, 10mbps is fine. If I were >going to buy this at all, I'd see about using it with AmigaDOS (and >working with Holger Kruse on an MNI driver, if he's still around) Holger isn't working on Miami any longer is he? I registered it a number of years ago but from the looks of it, it appears that development on it has stopped. I'm currently using an X-Surf with the MNI driver with the standard version of Miami (registered) on my A3000. Jeff From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 25 18:08:12 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? In-Reply-To: <3C28701E.5C00894@ccp.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of > > them. One of the local junk shops has a couple behind the counter. > > They are marked $20. I have no idea if that's a reasonable price or > > if they are gouging (they also have some used RTC8139-based boards > > next to them for $7, for comparison). > > > > Just curious, but not curious enough to drop $20 up front. > > I was getting 3c505 cards for 15 per, I'd start there. $20 tops. The 505 is a much older card, and only supports 10mb/s compared to the 100mb/s that the 515 supports. The 505 is part of the Etherlink Plus series, which predates the Etherlink III series. The Plus series came out right after the Etherlink II series. I personally wouldn't pay more than $5 for a used 505, and would expect to pay $1-$3. I'd buy a 509 (Etherlink III series) over a 505 in most cases, due to performance and driver issues. The 505 only has 1 transmit buffer, which makes its performance suffer a little compared to the 509. Driver support for the 509 is also much better. Overall, the 509 was probably the most successful and popular ISA card 3Com ever made. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 25 17:54:01 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? In-Reply-To: <20011225090946.96211.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of > them. One of the local junk shops has a couple behind the counter. > They are marked $20. I have no idea if that's a reasonable price or > if they are gouging (they also have some used RTC8139-based boards > next to them for $7, for comparison). $20 sounds reasonable for a genuine 3c515. These boards are actually still manufactured and sold, but your typical computer shop isn't going to stock them. I often buy used as-is 3c509 cards of various revisions/models for $1-$3. Since all the EtherLink III series and newer cards have a lifetime warranty, I don't care if they are dead or damaged when I buy them. A new 509 can be had for under $12 these days, often under $10 if buying in bulk (12, 24 or larger) packs. > Holger Kruse was considering adding support under Miami for a 3C515 > on a GG2 Bus+, but at the time, 3c515 boards were unobtanium, and > they wouldn't be fast, anyway. The only reason to really use an > ISA 10/100 card is if you have a non-PCI machine, and your network > infrastructure is 100 *only* (I have a 4-port 100BaseT hub from NetGear, > for instance - it was cheap at the time). Since the ISA bus has such limited bandwith, you'll never see the full 100mb/s performance. I still use 509 cards for my ISA boxes since the price/performance doesn't justify the extra cost. (This message will pass thru several 509 cards before it gets to my uplink.) -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 24 23:02:07 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! References: <3C28108D.B34E8CF8@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3C28084F.9DAF6E99@jetnet.ab.ca> Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I didn't even realize it was past 12:00 until just now...... I'm busy > wrapping presents :-) > > I've been working on a 486 for the last few days. I'm trying to get a > few stagnant projects going. Dumb things freezes on me..... will write > more later. > > Finally snowed too! > > Merry Christmas!! > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA Did you wrap the 486 up too! -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From fernande at internet1.net Tue Dec 25 16:48:07 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! References: <3C28108D.B34E8CF8@internet1.net> <3C28084F.9DAF6E99@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3C290227.F64BE33E@internet1.net> No, the 486 is mine. It's been a project computer for quite some time. It started life as a 386DX-25, but was upgraded to a 33 before I got it..... I think it actually may have had the whole MB replaced. I dropped in a coprocessor and then a TI 486 upgrade chip, and lots of memory. The old 386 board had 16 30-pin simm slots!! I think I had 48megs of ram in it...... more than a lot of 486s. Finally, I located a 486 board that would fit this case. I had already retired the computer, when I found the 486 MB, so I have been working on it very very slowly. I keep on running into troubles with it crashing. Every time I think I have it figured out, that wasn't it.... still freezes up. In testing, I using Win95, but I plan to switch to Linux..... actually maybe Freesco, and use it like a network. I don't have a network, but would like to start a small one. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I've been working on a 486 for the last few days. I'm trying to get a > > few stagnant projects going. Dumb things freezes on me..... will write > > more later. > > > > Finally snowed too! > > > > Merry Christmas!! > > > > Chad Fernandez > > Michigan, USA > > Did you wrap the 486 up too! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 25 18:03:13 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! References: <3C28108D.B34E8CF8@internet1.net> <3C28084F.9DAF6E99@jetnet.ab.ca> <3C290227.F64BE33E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3C2913C1.A91EC085@jetnet.ab.ca> Chad Fernandez wrote: > > No, the 486 is mine. It's been a project computer for quite some time. > It started life as a 386DX-25, but was upgraded to a 33 before I got > it..... I think it actually may have had the whole MB replaced. I > dropped in a coprocessor and then a TI 486 upgrade chip, and lots of > memory. The old 386 board had 16 30-pin simm slots!! I think I had > 48megs of ram in it...... more than a lot of 486s. Finally, I located a > 486 board that would fit this case. I had already retired the computer, > when I found the 486 MB, so I have been working on it very very slowly. > I keep on running into troubles with it crashing. Every time I think I > have it figured out, that wasn't it.... still freezes up. In testing, I > using Win95, but I plan to switch to Linux..... actually maybe Freesco, > and use it like a network. I don't have a network, but would like to > start a small one. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA A 486 makes a nice Linux box providing you don't run X-windows. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 25 02:43:46 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: <005101c18d1b$d2d21020$94469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > You wouldn't happen to have a URL for these guys, would you? A quick google > search for MT leasing hit-- in England. I don't think that's the MT leasing > you're talking about. :) They changed their name, state & URL this year. They're ElaraSys now, and they're in Illinois. www.elarasys.com Not bad prices on RS/6000 and Sun stuff, relative to most of the resellers out there. We've bought 4 or 5 systems from them and some tape libraries & stuff. Decent guys. Doc From rschaefe at gcfn.org Tue Dec 25 03:17:44 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. References: Message-ID: <006101c18d25$039cd240$94469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 03:43 AM Subject: Re: RS/6000, cheap to good home. > On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > You wouldn't happen to have a URL for these guys, would you? A quick google > > search for MT leasing hit-- in England. I don't think that's the MT leasing > > you're talking about. :) > > They changed their name, state & URL this year. They're ElaraSys now, > and they're in Illinois. > www.elarasys.com > Not bad prices on RS/6000 and Sun stuff, relative to most of the > resellers out there. We've bought 4 or 5 systems from them and some tape > libraries & stuff. Decent guys. And there's a please-spam-me popup on the main page, and I have to install Flash for *every* page. Altho, I suppose that's microsoft's fault, imagine an always-install-this button but not a never-install-this button. Lots of neat stuff there, but since they're not local any more... :( > > Doc Bob From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 25 03:52:10 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: RS/6000, cheap to good home. In-Reply-To: <006101c18d25$039cd240$94469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > And there's a please-spam-me popup on the main page, and I have to > install Flash for *every* page. Altho, I suppose that's microsoft's fault, > imagine an always-install-this button but not a never-install-this button. Ack! That's new. OK, They USED to be decent guys.... A Unix shop doing a Flash-ridden website. Jeez. Doc From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Dec 25 04:53:00 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just In-Reply-To: <200112171108.fBHB8aN21240@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011225214959.02dc5ed0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 05:08 AM 17/12/2001 -0600, Eric Dittman wrote: >I'm guessing the Alphabook will still be faster than an emulated VAX >on a 1GHz laptop, since that will probably be about the equivalent >to a MV3600 (that's what the Charon emulator claims, IIRC). The >Alphabook was a bit faster. I'll do some performance comparisons when SIMH runs OpenVMS and no, before you ask, I don't have an AlphaBook but I do have other Alpha hardware that is likely to have similar performance. >Still, once the IPF port is done, we should be able to take any >standard IPF laptop and load OpenVMS IPF on it. Indeedy, one of the best surprises of the IPF port but I suspect the IPF laptops will be a) heavy, b) expensive, c) hot and d) have a short battery life when run at full speed.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From dittman at dittman.net Tue Dec 25 12:24:22 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Hardest to Find Classic Computers (Was: RE: Way OT: Just In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011225214959.02dc5ed0@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Dec 25, 2001 09:53:00 PM Message-ID: <200112251824.fBPIOMt19926@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >I'm guessing the Alphabook will still be faster than an emulated VAX > >on a 1GHz laptop, since that will probably be about the equivalent > >to a MV3600 (that's what the Charon emulator claims, IIRC). The > >Alphabook was a bit faster. > > I'll do some performance comparisons when SIMH runs OpenVMS and no, > before you ask, I don't have an AlphaBook but I do have other Alpha > hardware that is likely to have similar performance. I'll certainly use SIMH with OpenVMS once it's working, too. > >Still, once the IPF port is done, we should be able to take any > >standard IPF laptop and load OpenVMS IPF on it. > > Indeedy, one of the best surprises of the IPF port but I suspect > the IPF laptops will be a) heavy, b) expensive, c) hot and d) have > a short battery life when run at full speed.... Yes, I think that will be the case at first, but advances in technology will take care of those problems fairly quickly. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Dec 25 09:15:55 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E References: Message-ID: <3C28982A.A13945B@tiac.net> I'm very interested in getting another HP 1000 machine. The 2113 I have now is not as stable as I need it to be. Lets make a deal! As I mentioned in my earlier post, I have a one-of-a-kind instrument based on a HP 2113 CPU, and I need to keep this instrument working. The time base generator boards are very simple, that accept a 3-bit value and will set their I/O flag bit after the selected time period, which can be 10 sec, 1 sec, 0.1 sec, 0.01 sec, etc. Usually the TBG board is installed in slot 10. You also have a HS Terminal board. Excellent, these are slightly rare. This is a serial port board that will run up to a maximm of 2400 baud, and it is compatible with HP Basic. Normally these use a current loop interface, but a simple modification to the I/O cable (inside the hood that connects to the PCB) will give you RS-232 I/O. I can supply all the info you need for this. (I just build such a cable for Jay West, I can make you one if you don't already have such a cable to modify) Oh yes, your going to have to use a terminal with 2400 baud, 7 data bits, space parity, and 2 stop bits. Hyperterminal works just fine for this. Install the HS Terminal board into slot 11 for use with HP Basic. The microcircuit interface boards are very valuable. You will want to use one of these as your reader-emulator interface. I'll need to know if they are '+ True' or 'GND true' boards, the differance being true or inverting cable drivers. As for the 55613 GMR-1 board, I have no idea on this item. I'm stumped, and thats not too easy. Its not listed in my HP interface manuals. The INTF 1337, I suspect that this is a 13037, the common MAC disk interface controller. This is not a disk controller itself, but an interface to a rack-mounted disk controller box. In my opinion, its useless, unless you have a working MAC disk and controller. They are very common boards. You have the high-speed memory (12747H), which usually goes with the 'E' series high speed memory controller, a 2102E. But as long as your passing the microcode memory tests, I'd leave well enough alone. (to test a HP 1000 CPU, set the A register to 100000 octal, set the P register to 000000 and open the front panel. Switch the Lock/Operate switch to Lock, then press Instruction Step. The CPU will run full CPU diagnostic microcode, and test all installed memory. The S register will increment for every 32K word page of memory tested. This test will run forever, until the lock operate switch is moved back to the operate position). My 2113E died (again) last night, and will no longer pass the CPU part of the diagnostics, indicated by the overflow light comming on, and no memory test incrementing in the S reg. So I'm very very eager to make a deal! The Natel 2101 R/D converter also stumps me, is this a third party I/O board? Now then, a tape reader emulator... My emulator uses a PIC 16C65A to talk to the microcircuit interface board, and a bank of EPROMs that hold images of the paper tapes. I also have modes to read from a generic paper tape reader, or from an application running on a PC (PC application not working yet). If all you need is to boot HP Basic, I can build you a simple version of the emulator, or simply send you schematics and pre-programmed PIC and EPROM chips, at your preferance. My reccomendation is that you snag the rack mounted systems, I'll contribute some cash, and whatever reader-emulator support you desire. What I need is a working 2113 E processor, and I'd love to have a set of floppy drives as well. If these systems have the HP 7970E tape drive, thats a sturdy, reliable tape drive that is not too hard to get running with simple assembly language programs. I have one, and would reccomend it to any HP collector. Nothing says vintage like spinning mag tape and blinking lights! The only difficult part of this I see, is getting a 2113 CPU from where ever it is, to my location in centeral Massachusettes. But my need is great, and I'm willing to cover any shipping costs. Lastly, if you have any interest in assembly language programming on your HP machine, I can email you a DOS executable version of the original HP assembler. You can look at the listing output and toggle small programs from the assembler directly into memory, and get your lights blinking. Also, I have a small program called Octapus-C, its a small monitor-like program that allows you to assemble small programs line-by-line from a terminal. Its crude, but effective. Both HP Basic and Octapus-C will easily fit into a single EPROM chip, and you can select which image is loaded by a simple switch. So once again, lets make a deal Steve, you may have made my Christmas here! After reading your post, I was tinkering with my machine last night, and it will no longer pass the power-up self tests. Oh yes, if you look at the pictures from VCF East, you will see my reader-emulator being used to boot the HP 2114A I displayed there. Steve Robertson wrote: > First, I'd like to say thanks to everyone that has provided help. The > insight provided by this group is invaluable in getting a system like this > going :-) > > I did a quick inventory of the cards in the rear of the machine plus a > second 1000 carcass that I have and this is what I found: > > * (2) Time base generator > * (3) Microcircuit A-2222 / 12566-60032 cards > * (1) 55613 GMR-1 - I have no idea what this is. > * (1) HS Terminal - 12531-80025 > * (1) INTF - 1337 > * (3) Natel 2101 R/D Converter > > I understand the "Time Generator" card but, really don't know the functions > of the other cards. I know some of this info may be on the spies/~AEK site > but, haven't had time to filter through those docs. > > The machine also has: > > * (1) 64K HSM 12747H - High speed memory > * (1) MEM CONTR 2102B > * (1) M.E.M 12731 > > I'm assuming these are just extended memory cards and controllers. > > At this point, the HP basic route certainly seems like the most doable. I > did see those images on Jeff's site but, was pretty clueless as to how to > get the data into the machine. > > Bob: exactly what is involved in your "Paper Tape Emulator". From the > functional description, it doesn't sound all that complicated. This may be > something, I could hack together. > > As a side note: I know where there are two more 1000/E that I could get for > about $200 each. While I haven't inventoried them, each of those systems is > a FULL rack of goodies including disk drives, X/Y data monitors, A/D > converters, etc... One of the systems has a combo tape/hard drive and could > possibly still have the OS installed. The other one has dual 8" floppies. > I'm running out of room for rack sized systems but, those probably deserve a > good home (mine). > > Happy holidays to all, > SteveRob > > >From: Bob Shannon > >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >Subject: Re: HP 1000/E > >Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 09:56:42 -0500 > > > >Wow, you got an amazing deal! > > > >I've been looking for a spare 2113 for a while now, as I have a custom > >instrument that is based on a HP 2113 processor. I would have easily paid > >10 > >times that price! > > > >As for operating systems and software, you have at least two options... > > > >First, the easy path... > > > >Simply run HP's stand-alone basic. You can download a binary image of the > >media, originally a paper tape, from Jeff's HP2100 Archives. Now you need > >a way > >to get > >that data into the machine, and a console port. > > > >You will also need a 'Buffered TTY Register' board to serve as a console > >serial > >port. Later HP machines (like the 2113) often use the BACI (Buffered Async > >Communications Adapter) board, which is NOT compatible with HP Basic. > > > >Depending on what interface boards you have, we may be able to work out a > >deal. > > > >I usually boot HP Basic from a custom tape reader emulator that holds the > >binary > >image of the paper tape in EPROM. This reader-emulator connects to a HP > >'Microcircuit Interface' board, and the software is loaded using the > >built-in > >boot loader ROMs in the HP 2113. You simply power up, set a few switches > >on the > >front panel, then press IBL, Preset, then IBL once again, and the loader > >code is > >stored in memory. Pressing RUN at this point will load the tape image into > >memory, and away you go. > > > >Now then the hard way... > > > >HP's operating system's for these machines are pretty nasty. The 'top of > >the > >line' OS was RTE-6VM, and the more common OS was RTE-IVB (RTE 4B). These > >operating systems were unlike anything I've ever seen, cryptic, obtuse, and > >fairly painful to use. As an example, to run a compiled program, you had > >to > >link the code into the OS itself. > > > >The hardest part here, is getting a useable disk system. RTE-IVB uses what > >were > >called MAC interface disks, while RTE-6VM also supported ICD drives, using > >a > >specialized version of the IEEE-488 interface. > > > >Supporting the original operating systems is a lot of work, and I strongly > >reccomend you run HP Basic. > > > >Now, what exactly do you have? > > > >The HP 2113 was one of the last machines in a long series going back to > >1968. > >Your 2113 is binary code compatible with the original HP 2116, the first HP > >product to use the then new-fangeled IC chips. HP2113's were still selling > >for > >$13,000+ in 1983, and are exceptionally well-built. > > > >It has no stack, but executes subroutines much like a PDP-8. In addition > >to the > >original HP 2116 instructions, the HP 2113 also adds several new registers > >and > >instructions, as well as a virtual memory scheme that can address 1 > >megaword of > >solid-state memory. > > > >Oh yes, many of the original interface boards from a 1968 HP 2116 will plug > >right into your 2113 and work perfectly (but not the cool oscilloscope > >point-plot display board...). > > > >I have a MS-DOS based version of the HP assembler, so you can assemble > >small > >programs on your PC. I am also working on a program for the PC that will > >send > >the paper tape image from the assembler into the HP via my tape reader > >emulator. Once this is working, it should be possible to boot the HP > >directly > >from a file on the PC's disk. > > > >Take a careful inventory of the interface boards you have, and we can see > >if > >there is something in there you can use to get your machine running HP > >Basic. > >(many generic HP interface boards can be made to serve as psudo-tape reader > >interfaces). > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Dec 25 09:57:21 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: have a Happy ... Message-ID: <3C28A1E1.39582263@arrl.net> from Houston, wishing all list members a safe and happy holiday :) -nick o From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 25 10:17:49 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Merry X.25 References: Message-ID: <000d01c18d5f$b274e7a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I want to thenk the almighty for: Ken Olsen 'GiGI' Bell D. M. Ritchie and K. Thompson Brian Kernighan Gary Kildall Steve N' Steve Let's see, and who am I missing? Oh Yeah, This List! Merry Christmas Everybody! John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 24 23:06:26 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Merry X.25 References: <000d01c18d5f$b274e7a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3C280952.1F5D2D8F@jetnet.ab.ca> John Allain wrote: > > I want to thenk the almighty for: > > Ken Olsen > 'GiGI' Bell > D. M. Ritchie and K. Thompson > Brian Kernighan > Gary Kildall > Steve N' Steve > Let's see, and who am I missing? > Oh Yeah, This List! Merry Christmas Everybody! > > John A. You better put John A. on that list too! :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1541.monmouth.com Tue Dec 25 16:19:26 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1541.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Merry X.25 In-Reply-To: <000d01c18d5f$b274e7a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Dec 25, 2001 11:17:49 am" Message-ID: <200112252219.fBPMJWO00666@bg-tc-ppp1541.monmouth.com> > I want to thenk the almighty for: > > Ken Olsen > 'GiGI' Bell > D. M. Ritchie and K. Thompson > Brian Kernighan > Gary Kildall > Steve N' Steve > Let's see, and who am I missing? > Oh Yeah, This List! Merry Christmas Everybody! > > John A. Good list, Make that Ken Olson... Add to the list Adam Osbourne, Grace Hopper, Stan Olson, Bill Joy, and Andy Kay. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Tue Dec 25 13:34:45 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1009308885.8791.0.camel@silke> No, really, that's not odd. The output drivers of your terminals serial line short the transmit line (which is your VAXens receive line) to ground when powered off. This is interpreted as a BREAK, which, by definition, is the "if-all-else-fails"-signal to halt the CPU, whatever it might be doing. ms On Tue, 2001-12-25 at 00:44, Doc wrote: > On 24 Dec 2001, Michael Schneider wrote: > > > Disconnect your terminal. > > As a proof, this email is sent to the list via my 4000/60, running > > NetBSD without a console terminal attached. (Some proof, i know ... 8-) > > The 4000/vlc works just as well. > > > > To get the 4000/60 autobooting you have to have > > > > SET BOOT dka0 (or whatever your system disk is) > > SET HALT 1 > > SET BFLG 0 > > It works. :^) > The "disconnect your terminal" part was the thing. I find it odd that > the box won't even finish power-up diags if the terminal is connected > and turned off. > > Doc > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From mhstein at usa.net Tue Dec 25 10:35:55 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: Mike Stein Message-ID: <01C18D3A.10D81220@mse-d03> Sorry; trouble getting into ISP & mailbox filled up. OK now, c u off-list. m ---------------Original Message-------------- From: "Ernest" Subject: Mike Stein Hey, Mike. I've been trying to get ahold of you via email about your Apple II clone but your mail keeps bouncing back. Please contact me if you are still interested in selling those systems to me. Thanks. Ernest From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 25 18:29:55 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:40 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > > There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of > > them. One of the local junk shops has a couple behind the counter. > > They are marked $20. I have no idea if that's a reasonable price or > > if they are gouging (they also have some used RTC8139-based boards > > next to them for $7, for comparison). > > > > Just curious, but not curious enough to drop $20 up front. > > $20.00 is reasonable in my opinion, since these cards can be hard to > find. The problem that I ran into was finding drivers for them. I'm > not sure if I have a 515 or different one but the drivers were > difficult or impossible to find (for MSDOS) and the setup was arcane > to say the least. On the other hand, Linux might support the old stuff > like this much better. What OS were you hoping to use with the card? I don't really consider these cards to be hard to find, you just won't find them in most used computer shops. The 515 isn't too popular, since there isn't much gain with it compared to a less expensive 509. If you are looking for the setup utility and packet drivers for this card, try here: http://support.3com.com/infodeli/tools/nic/3c515.htm If you are looking for Linux drivers, have a look at a modern kernel and here: http://www.scyld.com/network/3c515.html Crynwr Software http://www.crynwr.com/ also has many packet drivers available, often for cards that are not supported by the original manufacturer. The setup for these cards is very similar to that of any of the Etherlink series adapters 3com made. Almost all of their cards use the same menu setup for the configuration software, so it's mostly just a matter of getting used to 3com's way of doing things. One issue with the 515 that tends to annoy people is that it needs a plug-n-pray bios and or an enabler program to enable the card before a driver can recognize it. -Toth From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 13:29:20 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Penguin boxes (was: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: <3C1F8EA4.E55E36D3@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20011225192920.37219.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > You tell me how I can make $$$ and I will not move to seattle. > Deal? I could move to Antarctica and make linux boxes. Take a > penguin and stuff it in old 386. Stamp exported from 'Finland'.:) But we didn't export Linux boxes, we imported them. Actually, "co-opted" is probably a better term. I had to scrounge for a 486DX33 in 1995 to load Slackware Linux on a box over the winter. Mostly, peons had Dell 316SX machines and managers had generic 486SX25 and 486DX33 w/4Mb, 16Mb if you were "important". The only cool thing was that McMurdo has its own Class B address and it was trivial to put my Amiga on the 'net (no NAT!) I only had a 486 because I pulled a board out of stock and set it up naked on my workbench... we had power supplies, motherboards, network cards, etc, but no spare cases. It also kept my boss from giving my computer away to fix other people's problems in the short term. He had already given my desktop away three times when I resorted to a boxless box. The look on his face when he came around the corner to try it a fourth time was priceless... "...I need your PC for... Oh... nevermind..." -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 25 02:19:27 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Penguin boxes (was: Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <20011225192920.37219.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C28368F.7404192A@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > > You tell me how I can make $$$ and I will not move to seattle. > > Deal? I could move to Antarctica and make linux boxes. Take a > > penguin and stuff it in old 386. Stamp exported from 'Finland'.:) > > But we didn't export Linux boxes, we imported them. Actually, "co-opted" > is probably a better term. I had to scrounge for a 486DX33 in 1995 to > load Slackware Linux on a box over the winter. Mostly, peons had Dell > 316SX machines and managers had generic 486SX25 and 486DX33 w/4Mb, 16Mb > if you were "important". The only cool thing was that McMurdo has its > own Class B address and it was trivial to put my Amiga on the 'net (no > NAT!) > > I only had a 486 because I pulled a board out of stock and set it up naked > on my workbench... we had power supplies, motherboards, network cards, etc, > but no spare cases. It also kept my boss from giving my computer away to > fix other people's problems in the short term. He had already given my > desktop away three times when I resorted to a boxless box. The look on his > face when he came around the corner to try it a fourth time was > priceless... > "...I need your PC for... Oh... nevermind..." > > -ethan You could have always put in a rack and bolted it to your desk. :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Tue Dec 25 13:38:50 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1009309130.8791.2.camel@silke> For online doc's, take this: http://www.whiteice.com/~williamwebb/intro/DOC-i.html Ok, it's for a 3100/76, but the instructions are fairly accurate and, as far as i can tell, valid for 4000/60 systems. ms On Tue, 2001-12-25 at 00:25, Doc wrote: > On 24 Dec 2001, Michael Schneider wrote: > > > To get the 4000/60 autobooting you have to have > > > > SET BOOT dka0 (or whatever your system disk is) > > SET HALT 1 > > SET BFLG 0 > > > > Most NetBSD's up to 1.5.2 garble the "HALT" setting on shutdown, so you > > should check this ("SHOW HALT"). Valid values are: > > > > 3: Machine halts on powerup (Manual boot) > > 2: Automatic reboot > > 1: Automatic restart > > 0: same as 2 > > Ah-hah! This one has HALT set to 3. I haven't found any docs or online > info > about the nvram settings or post messages. > Thanks, I'll try this. > > Doc > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 25 13:41:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Apple cable (was Re: Apple DuoDisk (was Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff)) In-Reply-To: <20011225023438.97935.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 24, 1 06:34:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 339 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011225/449cf87d/attachment.ksh From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 14:22:36 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: PALs (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: <008701c18672$6bbff320$82f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20011225202236.96962.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- ajp166 wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk > >> Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > >> expensive. > It depends on what your limited resource is and how costly _that_ is. ISTR PALs were $2-$10 each c. 1981-1982. If someone remembers differently, please supply more accurage data. Yes, a single PAL cost more than several TTL popcorn chips, but given how much you could fold into a single PAL in the way of I/O select logic (a common use on the board I first encountered PALs on), it wasn't so expensive then. > Yes, they were compared to random logic, but if board space was costly > they were cheaper. Or if board space was a fixed resource, then it's doubly costly. The oldest example I can cite from personal experience is the COMBOARD-I to COMBOARD-II design. Both were early examples of 68000 designs (an intellegent Unibus serial periperal)... one with SRAM (2114s) and TTL logic, the other with DRAMs and PALs. One similarity - about 1.5 sq ft. of board space to cram in a CPU, RAM, support logic, a sync serial port (based on the COM5025) a parallel port and Unibus DMA logic. In 1981, our designers went with older tech, but the DMA engine was horribly complicated from the standpoint of the 68000, but it was in part because there wasn't enough room on the board for a better design with TTL. The second revision (c. 1983-1984) had more onboard I/O, and implemented the DMA engine as a bank of shared memory to the 68000 (i.e., read/write to a certain range of memory from your code and it automatically generates a Unibus DMA cycle - most cool). I don't know for a fact, but from what I remember about the designs, I don't think a shared-memory DMA engine would have fit on a Unibus board if it had been made out of popcorn logic. > >I never heard about pal's until about 1990... > > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. I didn't see PALs in use until the early 1980s. Yes, I know they came out in 1978, but products designed with them didn't hit right away. The technology is 1970s, but the products are, for the most part, 1980s. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 14:30:50 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011225203050.5710.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: > >And as Jeff said - Amigas flash the power LED. The flash is between low > >and high intensity, and it's actually an indication of the status of the > >audio filter :&) IIRC, bright is off and dimmer is on. I don't think it's attached to the audio filter on an A1000, but I could be misremembering. I think they wanted an extra bit and didn't want to make any of the I/O incompatible when they added a feature. > > And yes, it flashes before you get a Guru Meditation (kickstart 1.3 and > > below) or Software Failure (kickstart 2+). Gives you a chance to press > > right mouse button and fire up ROMwhack :&) Exactly. I remember a sinking feeling in my stomach when the machine would freeze and the light would slowly blink before revealing the obvious. > I knew that while running some applications such as GMPlay > that the LED would dim but I was never sure why. That's a good thing > to know. You're right though that it's not a GURU for KS 2+, but a > software failure. I tend to describe any error which brings up the > red box error as a GURU though. It gives you little option other > than pressing the mouse button and rebooting. Little option as a user, yes. As a developer, sometimes you could wring some idea of what just happened out of ROMwhack. GOMF was better, though (because you didn't have to crash and lose and diagnostic messages), as was a little wedge in the Guru routine that would translate the Guru numbers into plaintext inside a *huge* red blinky box. I forget what it was called, but it was handy because it saved much time when diagnosing what stupid thing you'd done in the code. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 14:34:15 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011225203415.36668.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matt London wrote: > And as Jeff said - Amigas flash the power LED. The flash is between low > and high intensity... I just remembered - I think there was a library for issuing kernel-level debug messages as morse code over the power LED (since you don't always have a context that allows file or textual I/O). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 25 15:50:26 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels In-Reply-To: Re: Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels (UberTechnoid) References: <10112152104.ZM20810@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <00f701c1876b$66478c60$3700a8c0@benchbox> Message-ID: <15400.62626.535142.238676@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 17, UberTechnoid wrote: > My Sparcstation 4/330 has a bank of ten (or so) red leds in a row. These > light in varios patterns to indicate which self test is being conducted at > power on. After this, the leds 'race' back and forth faster or slower > depending on the CPU load. Unfortunately, this cool load meter doesn't work > in netbsd or openbsd, only in Solaris. > > My Vaxstation 4000/60 has an 8 (or so) red led that also posts codes at > power on but nothing else in either vms or in netbsd. > > I recompiled the netbsd 1.5.2 kernel to enable the led on the Sparc.....and > nothing still. > > Why on earth would Sun put a cool set of leds UNDERNEATH the cover? I mean, > you might as well put it out there. The "LEDs on the spine of the board" design goes back to the earlier rackmount chassis, in which one could walk behind the racks and see the LEDs. The NetBSD LED support isn't for those LEDs, if memory serves...I believe it's only for the front panel LED on the SPARCstations, which is also controlled by software. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 25 15:09:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Tinning on old PCBs In-Reply-To: Re: Tinning on old PCBs (John Lawson) References: <20011220055900.92826.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15400.60172.655453.328734@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 20, John Lawson wrote: > Just a quick (dumb) question: is this 'tinning' silver? Or Green? In > other words, has the solder itself actually flaked off the trace (meaning > it never bonded in the first place) or has the 'paint' coating called the > solder mask, which is usually green, come off, revealing the trace beneath > it? This very common, and Ethan is right, it should be carefully re-tinned > to avoid long-term corrosion. I have a bottle of this really neat stuff that I bought at Active Electronics when I lived in Maryland. It's a clear liquid that, when brushed or poured over copper, deposits a layer of silvery metal (tin I assume) on the surface of the copper...nearly instantaneously. It just seems to plate out of solution onto the copper. It's most interesting to watch. It was sold with the printed circuit board fabrication materials, obviously intended for post-etching tinning of the remaining copper. I don't quite recall what it was called; it's still packed up from my move. But it was really neat stuff. -Dave PS - Happy holidays to all my fellow classiccmp'ers!! May your days be filled with tons of good food and your nights be filled with blinkenlights and elegant non-x86 instruction sets. -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 25 16:23:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Wanted DEC VT1200 mouse and cable In-Reply-To: <200112250313.fBP3D1H01745@bg-tc-ppp1341.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Dec 24, 1 10:13:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011225/c2e637b1/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 25 16:31:59 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Found today ISD EPROM? In-Reply-To: Re: Found today ISD EPROM? (Tony Duell) References: <016301c189c8$e5442f00$2f701fd1@default> Message-ID: <15400.65119.534468.214235@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 21, Tony Duell wrote: > > Today I stopped at a thrift and found a Blue/White metal device made by > > ISD and can't really figure it out. It has a place burn a chip and the > > one in it is ISD 1016 AP; a four inch speaker at the top and on the > > IIRC the ISD... chips were non-volatile, speech-quality audio storage > devices. Not digitised speech, they used different charge levels in > E2PROM-like cells to store analogue qunatities. I've used these chips in a few projects recently. They work very well and are easy to interface to PIC microcontrollers. Definitely neat stuff. I'm surprised they were able to get any sort of amplitude range from those nonvolatile cells, but they seem to have perfected it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 25 17:07:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: old TEK 4662 plotter In-Reply-To: <002501c18d18$1f3b5c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Dec 25, 1 00:45:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 612 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011225/e7a8b688/attachment.ksh From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 25 18:41:55 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! In-Reply-To: <3C2913C1.A91EC085@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > A 486 makes a nice Linux box providing you don't run X-windows. A 486 with 32-64mb of ram will run X fine, but it's still a little slow for cpu intensive processes (netscape, mozilla, gimp...). These machines also make excellent X terminals, provided they have a fairly decent video card. My personal favorites tend to be old Diamond Viper and Stealth VLB cards with 2mb of video ram. -Toth From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 25 19:25:12 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: PALs (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "PALs (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?)" (Dec 25, 12:22) References: <20011225202236.96962.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10112260125.ZM4793@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 25, 12:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- ajp166 wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ben Franchuk > > >> Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were > > >> expensive. > > > It depends on what your limited resource is and how costly _that_ is. > ISTR PALs were $2-$10 each c. 1981-1982. If someone remembers differently, > please supply more accurage data. Yes, a single PAL cost more than several > TTL popcorn chips, but given how much you could fold into a single PAL in > the way of I/O select logic (a common use on the board I first encountered > PALs on), it wasn't so expensive then. > > > Yes, they were compared to random logic, but if board space was costly > > they were cheaper. > > Or if board space was a fixed resource, then it's doubly costly. The > oldest example I can cite from personal experience is the COMBOARD-I > to COMBOARD-II design. Both were early examples of 68000 designs (an > intellegent Unibus serial periperal)... one with SRAM (2114s) and TTL > logic, the other with DRAMs and PALs. One similarity - about 1.5 sq ft. > of board space to cram in a CPU, RAM, support logic, a sync serial port > (based on the COM5025) a parallel port and Unibus DMA logic. > > In 1981, our designers went with older tech, but the DMA engine was > horribly complicated from the standpoint of the 68000, but it was in part > because there wasn't enough room on the board for a better design with > TTL. The second revision (c. 1983-1984) had more onboard I/O, and > implemented the DMA engine as a bank of shared memory to the 68000 (i.e., > read/write to a certain range of memory from your code and it automatically > generates a Unibus DMA cycle - most cool). I don't know for a fact, but > from what I remember about the designs, I don't think a shared-memory DMA > engine would have fit on a Unibus board if it had been made out of popcorn > logic. > > > >I never heard about pal's until about 1990... > > > > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. > > I didn't see PALs in use until the early 1980s. Yes, I know they came > out in 1978, but products designed with them didn't hit right away. You should read Tracy Kidder's book, The Soul of a New Machine. It describes the design of the Eagle inside Data General from early 1978 to early 1980, and mentions PALs a lot. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at vintage.org Tue Dec 25 20:09:46 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! Message-ID: Happy Holidays! *<:) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 20:46:11 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011226024611.43734.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > > > > There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of > > > them. > > I don't really consider these cards to be hard to find, you just won't > find them in most used computer shops. The 515 isn't too popular, since > there isn't much gain with it compared to a less expensive 509. Much gain? 10BaseT vs 10/100? Seems like a win to me. The only real problem is that you can't saturate a 100mbps line from an ISA card. As I mentioned in my first post, I think the only real need for one is if you find yourself on a 100BaseT *only* network. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 25 21:33:12 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? In-Reply-To: <20011226024611.43734.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Tothwolf wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > > > > > > There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of > > > > them. > > > > I don't really consider these cards to be hard to find, you just won't > > find them in most used computer shops. The 515 isn't too popular, since > > there isn't much gain with it compared to a less expensive 509. > > Much gain? 10BaseT vs 10/100? Seems like a win to me. The only real > problem is that you can't saturate a 100mbps line from an ISA card. The ISA bus can't handle anywhere near the full 100mb/s bandwith, so these cards throttle the bandwith considerably. From personal experience in testing tons of different cards on my lan, I just don't see enough of a throughput difference when comparing the 509 and 515 to justify the extra cost. This is especially true when the second generation 509 cards can be had for less than $5 easily, and have much better driver support. > As I mentioned in my first post, I think the only real need for one is > if you find yourself on a 100BaseT *only* network. That would be about the only use for them that I can think of. Most modern 100mb/s networks are switched and support N-way autonegotiation (and 10mb/s), so there just isn't much use for a 100mb/s ISA nic anymore. -Toth From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 25 21:36:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: PALs (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) Message-ID: <003301c18dbf$71320ce0$62ed9a8d@ajp166> I have read it, it's on my bookshelf. PALs were still just starting to be seriously used in the very late 70s with an increase into the 80s, it was the cost vs board real estate vs reliability issue. The testability/reliability issues took a few years to gain engineers confidence. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 9:05 PM Subject: Re: PALs (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) >On Dec 25, 12:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> --- ajp166 wrote: >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Ben Franchuk >> > >> Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS were >> > >> expensive. >> > >> It depends on what your limited resource is and how costly _that_ is. >> ISTR PALs were $2-$10 each c. 1981-1982. If someone remembers >differently, >> please supply more accurage data. Yes, a single PAL cost more than >several >> TTL popcorn chips, but given how much you could fold into a single PAL in >> the way of I/O select logic (a common use on the board I first >encountered >> PALs on), it wasn't so expensive then. >> >> > Yes, they were compared to random logic, but if board space was costly >> > they were cheaper. >> >> Or if board space was a fixed resource, then it's doubly costly. The >> oldest example I can cite from personal experience is the COMBOARD-I >> to COMBOARD-II design. Both were early examples of 68000 designs (an >> intellegent Unibus serial periperal)... one with SRAM (2114s) and TTL >> logic, the other with DRAMs and PALs. One similarity - about 1.5 sq ft. >> of board space to cram in a CPU, RAM, support logic, a sync serial port >> (based on the COM5025) a parallel port and Unibus DMA logic. >> >> In 1981, our designers went with older tech, but the DMA engine was >> horribly complicated from the standpoint of the 68000, but it was in part >> because there wasn't enough room on the board for a better design with >> TTL. The second revision (c. 1983-1984) had more onboard I/O, and >> implemented the DMA engine as a bank of shared memory to the 68000 (i.e., >> read/write to a certain range of memory from your code and it >automatically >> generates a Unibus DMA cycle - most cool). I don't know for a fact, but >> from what I remember about the designs, I don't think a shared-memory DMA >> engine would have fit on a Unibus board if it had been made out of >popcorn >> logic. >> >> > >I never heard about pal's until about 1990... >> > >> > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. >> >> I didn't see PALs in use until the early 1980s. Yes, I know they came >> out in 1978, but products designed with them didn't hit right away. > >You should read Tracy Kidder's book, The Soul of a New Machine. It >describes the design of the Eagle inside Data General from early 1978 to >early 1980, and mentions PALs a lot. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 25 21:33:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! Message-ID: <003201c18dbf$70b64d30$62ed9a8d@ajp166> I have a AMD5x86/133 that runs linux Xwin rather well in 16mb ram. I've run it on 486dx66 with 20mb ram and it's decent. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Tothwolf To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! >On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > >> A 486 makes a nice Linux box providing you don't run X-windows. > >A 486 with 32-64mb of ram will run X fine, but it's still a little slow >for cpu intensive processes (netscape, mozilla, gimp...). These machines >also make excellent X terminals, provided they have a fairly decent video >card. My personal favorites tend to be old Diamond Viper and Stealth VLB >cards with 2mb of video ram. > >-Toth > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 25 21:58:31 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! In-Reply-To: <003201c18dbf$70b64d30$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > From: Tothwolf > >On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > > A 486 makes a nice Linux box providing you don't run X-windows. > > > > A 486 with 32-64mb of ram will run X fine, but it's still a little > > slow for cpu intensive processes (netscape, mozilla, gimp...). > > I have a AMD5x86/133 that runs linux Xwin rather well in 16mb > ram. I've run it on 486dx66 with 20mb ram and it's decent. X will run fine with 16mb, but it would be happier and more responsive with 32mb or more. Provided you give the machine enough swap space, X can run with a little as 4-8mb of ram. I use a 486DX2-66 with 32mb (could use 16mb, but wanted the extra memory for a ramdisk) as an internet gateway. -Toth From fernande at internet1.net Tue Dec 25 22:11:00 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! References: Message-ID: <3C294DD4.E288D461@internet1.net> It does have a Diamond VLB card in it, but it's a Speedstar Pro, with 1 meg, I think. It is the only VLB card I own! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Tothwolf wrote: > A 486 with 32-64mb of ram will run X fine, but it's still a little slow > for cpu intensive processes (netscape, mozilla, gimp...). These machines > also make excellent X terminals, provided they have a fairly decent video > card. My personal favorites tend to be old Diamond Viper and Stealth VLB > cards with 2mb of video ram. > > -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 25 22:15:58 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! References: <003201c18dbf$70b64d30$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C294EFE.936B4C9@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > > I have a AMD5x86/133 that runs linux Xwin rather well in 16mb > ram. I've run it on 486dx66 with 20mb ram and it's decent. I am currently running a P150. You make it sound like my machine is a 'Classic' already. :) I recommend Debian Linux for the simple reason you can upgrade over a modem Internet connection. All the other Linux's require a network card to upgrade. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 25 22:12:09 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: PALs (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) References: <003301c18dbf$71320ce0$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000e01c18dc3$7d32b9a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Bipolar PALs and PROMs had one weakness in that they were risky when being tested, since testing sometimes damaged the fuse array. It took a while for the programmer makers to develop a way of testing them that didn't damage them as much as 2% of the time. I haven't run into any documentation claiming that PALs didn't exist prior to 1978, though most of MMI's data sheets were marked PRELIMINARY in 1978. The 16L/R/X-series was new then, but the 10- 12-and 14 series was earlier than that. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 8:36 PM Subject: Re: PALs (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > I have read it, it's on my bookshelf. PALs were still just > starting to be seriously used in the very late 70s with an > increase into the 80s, it was the cost vs board real estate > vs reliability issue. The testability/reliability issues took > a few years to gain engineers confidence. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 9:05 PM > Subject: Re: PALs (was Re: MITS 2SIO serial chip?) > > > >On Dec 25, 12:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> --- ajp166 wrote: > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Ben Franchuk > >> > >> Sure its trivial to do now but we were talking 1981 when PALS > were > >> > >> expensive. > >> > > >> It depends on what your limited resource is and how costly _that_ is. > >> ISTR PALs were $2-$10 each c. 1981-1982. If someone remembers > >differently, > >> please supply more accurage data. Yes, a single PAL cost more than > >several > >> TTL popcorn chips, but given how much you could fold into a single PAL > in > >> the way of I/O select logic (a common use on the board I first > >encountered > >> PALs on), it wasn't so expensive then. > >> > >> > Yes, they were compared to random logic, but if board space was > costly > >> > they were cheaper. > >> > >> Or if board space was a fixed resource, then it's doubly costly. The > >> oldest example I can cite from personal experience is the COMBOARD-I > >> to COMBOARD-II design. Both were early examples of 68000 designs (an > >> intellegent Unibus serial periperal)... one with SRAM (2114s) and TTL > >> logic, the other with DRAMs and PALs. One similarity - about 1.5 sq > ft. > >> of board space to cram in a CPU, RAM, support logic, a sync serial > port > >> (based on the COM5025) a parallel port and Unibus DMA logic. > >> > >> In 1981, our designers went with older tech, but the DMA engine was > >> horribly complicated from the standpoint of the 68000, but it was in > part > >> because there wasn't enough room on the board for a better design with > >> TTL. The second revision (c. 1983-1984) had more onboard I/O, and > >> implemented the DMA engine as a bank of shared memory to the 68000 > (i.e., > >> read/write to a certain range of memory from your code and it > >automatically > >> generates a Unibus DMA cycle - most cool). I don't know for a fact, > but > >> from what I remember about the designs, I don't think a shared-memory > DMA > >> engine would have fit on a Unibus board if it had been made out of > >popcorn > >> logic. > >> > >> > >I never heard about pal's until about 1990... > >> > > >> > PALS are 1970s technology, really old to some of us. > >> > >> I didn't see PALs in use until the early 1980s. Yes, I know they came > >> out in 1978, but products designed with them didn't hit right away. > > > >You should read Tracy Kidder's book, The Soul of a New Machine. It > >describes the design of the Eagle inside Data General from early 1978 to > >early 1980, and mentions PALs a lot. > > > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Dec 25 22:14:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: old TEK 4662 plotter References: Message-ID: <003001c18dc3$dfc5b5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I came here because the 4662 is mentioned and shown on Jim Willing's Computer-Garage site, but I was unable to contact him as the email bounced. I thought he might see the mention on the list. 'twas my hope someone had pictures scanned already. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 4:07 PM Subject: Re: old TEK 4662 plotter > > > > I'm interested in looking at drawings of the TEK 4662 digital plotter mechanical > > drawings. Could anybody point me to a site from which I can download the > > drawings? > > If this is related to our e-mail discussions (how to move the pen > carriage in 2 directions with both motors fixed to the chassis of the > machine) then I can confirm that the 4662 service manual includes not > only an exploded diagram of the mechanism but also the cord stringing > diagrams which probably are even more use to you. > > FWIW, the 4661's (same mechanism) service manual contains identical > diagrams of the cord layout. > > -tony > > From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 22:16:14 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: HP 1000/E Message-ID: >The time base generator boards are very simple, that accept a 3-bit >value >and will set their I/O flag bit after the selected time period, >which can >be 10 sec, 1 sec, 0.1 sec, 0.01 sec, etc. > >Usually the TBG board is installed in slot 10. I found the manuals for the TBG on www.spies.com/~AEK . Haven't messed with that board yet but, shouldn't have too much trouble using it. >You also have a HS Terminal board. Excellent, these are slightly >rare. >This is a serial port board that will run up to a maximm of >2400 baud, and >it is compatible with HP Basic. Normally these use a >current loop >interface, but a simple modification to the I/O cable >(inside the hood >that connects to the PCB) will give you RS-232 I/O. >I can supply all the >info you need for this. As with the TBG board, I found the manuals for this board. There are several code samples with the manuals and on Jeff's site but, so far I can't get it to work. I didn't realize the cable had to be changed for RS232. If you have the pin outs, that'd be cool. I don't have the code in front of me but, unless I'm mistaken, it just continously loops when checking the status. Not sure if this could be caused by the cabling differences or not. ... SFS 10 JMP *-1 ... NOTE: This is the only I/O card in the box so, I assumed it had to go in slot "10". If you can provide a short routine to send a single character to the console, that'd eliminate one of the variables (me). >Oh yes, your going to have to use a terminal with 2400 baud, 7 data > > >bits, space parity, and 2 stop bits. Hyperterminal works just fine >for >this. No problem. Got plenty of dumb terminals laying around. >The microcircuit interface boards are very valuable. You will want >to use >one of these as your reader-emulator interface. I'll need to >know if they >are '+ True' or 'GND true' boards, the differance being >true or inverting >cable drivers. We'll get to that a little later :-) >As for the 55613 GMR-1 board, I have no idea on this item. I'm >stumped, >and thats not too easy. Its not listed in my HP interface >manuals. >(to test a HP 1000 CPU, set the A register to 100000 octal, set the P > >register to 000000 and open the front panel. Switch the Lock/Operate > >switch to Lock, then press Was able to locate the DOCS for the ROM on the /~AEK/ site and ran the diagnostics (as indicated above). Everything checks out OK. >The Natel 2101 R/D converter also stumps me, is this a third party >I/O >board? >From the research I've done, it appears that "R/D Converter" indicates a "Resolver to Data converter. It was probably used in a some kinda robotic or motion controller application. >Now then, a tape reader emulator... > >My emulator uses a PIC 16C65A to talk to the microcircuit interface >board, >and a bank of EPROMs that hold images of the paper tapes. I >also have >modes to read from a generic paper tape reader, or from an >application >running on a PC (PC application not working yet). >If all you need is to boot HP Basic, I can build you a simple >version of >the emulator, or simply send you schematics and >pre-programmed PIC and >EPROM chips, at your preferance. Hmm... Once I get the system talking to a serial interface, I'll investigate further. From what I understand, the TAPE READER protocol is pretty simple so, I may be able to hack something together. I'll let you know when I get this far. >If these systems have the HP 7970E tape drive, thats a sturdy, >reliable >tape drive that is not too hard to get running with simple >assembly >language programs. I have one, and would reccomend it to >any HP >collector. Nothing says vintage like spinning mag tape and >blinking >lights! I have several HP 7978 (HP-IB) tape drives that I use on my "classic" 3000s and 9000 HP-UX boxes. Those are really sweet drives! Not sure if they're compatible with the 1000 or not? >Lastly, if you have any interest in assembly language programming on >your >HP machine, I can email you a DOS executable version of the >original HP >assembler. Downloaded the assembler (hpasm.c) from Jeff's site. Had no problem compiling or running it on my 9000. I've been using it while trying to get the serial interface going. Also downloaded the e21.c emulator but, wouldn't build on my box. --- /usr/ccs/bin/ld: Unsatisfied symbols: kbhit (code) --- Really haven't had time to investigate. Thanks again, SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 25 22:33:10 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! In-Reply-To: <003201c18dbf$70b64d30$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > I have a AMD5x86/133 that runs linux Xwin rather well in 16mb > ram. I've run it on 486dx66 with 20mb ram and it's decent. you guys are making me feel a little spoiled with my Athlon 1.6 & 64M graphics card. (Although I did get the video card for $20...) Nah, not really. Sometimes I *like* driving fast. ;^) Merry We-Lived-Through-It-Another-Year, you guys. Whatever you celebrate, hope it was excellent. Last Xmas gift (off ebay, just ended): a tkz50 for 5.50 USD & shipping. Time to quit gathering (for now) and play with it all. Best Xmas gift: a 2-foot-tall black-&-purple-striped Dr. Seuss Cat Hat. Life's way too short to take it seriously. Doc From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 25 22:40:18 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Merry Christmas Everyone!!!! In-Reply-To: <3C294DD4.E288D461@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: > > .... These machines also make excellent X terminals, provided they > > have a fairly decent video card. My personal favorites tend to be old > > Diamond Viper and Stealth VLB cards with 2mb of video ram. > > It does have a Diamond VLB card in it, but it's a Speedstar Pro, with 1 > meg, I think. It is the only VLB card I own! I own a few of these myself, and they do indeed work very well. The additional 1mb memory allows for running at a higher resolution and or color depth. -Toth From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Tue Dec 25 14:42:08 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: "Geeks" and licensing References: Message-ID: <000201c18e03$3c082f60$a9c8f0c3@cx> There is an end to the amount of changes a system will stand. So at one point a rebuild is necessary. However systems will last far longer when capable persons make the changes. Junior programmers may learn from the maintenance experience, but I have seen to many systems maintained beyond repair. The art of maintenance programming is vastly underrated. On another subject: Taking risks must be worth while. Wim > DQ wrote in part (part of the original attribution lost -- sorry): > > > > Rebuild a system the customer is satisfied with? Risk his > > > process again? Rather not. > > > > A special place in Hell awaits those unwilling to take risks... > > The real issue is whether the customer is truly satisfied with > what has been delivered. More than once I've seen the movie where > the customer is initially happy with what was delivered, but over > time returns with change orders that eventually bend the original > architecture into what could only be described as a truly tortured > shape -- with the expected consequences for the reliability and > maintainability of the system. Driven far enough you end up with > few other choices _but_ to take it from the top. > > Chris > Who is dealing with Just Such A Customer at the moment... > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Dec 26 02:50:00 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Good way to archive system disks In-Reply-To: References: <3C26BD2F.3BDF0534@mich.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011226004846.03b43950@mail.zipcon.net> >On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Dave Mabry wrote: > > > Another obstacle is that 440BX chipsets only control one floppy drive. > > I don't have an older PC that can control two floppy drives. Am I > > missing something here? Um, the 440BX can control 2 drives, if your Wintel box won't support 2 floppy drives, then iut's something that your bios manufacturer did that is peculiar, NOT the chiopset. From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Dec 26 03:43:53 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: After Xmas Sale 11/44 wanted Message-ID: Okay, just bear with me. At one time I had Dec By The Ton. I had Systems in every room of the house save the Loo, because I was afraid the steam from the shower would hurt Things. And, in the Fulness of Time, I sold my Ton's O' Dec Stuff (and everything else for that matter) and took a job in a Furrin Country. My contract is ending, and I am not going to renew it. I will return to the US to take up yet another New Life in February. "So what's yer point? Get *on* with it, already..." AHEM.. I of course found out that anyone can bury themselves in hardware with no problem at all. That being said, I can't help the fact that I'd like to own a System again. I'd like to buy (and ship) a *WORKING* PDP-11/44 system of some description. Ideally, I'd like to have a >1MW machine with EIS and CIS, one (or two) RL02s, an RX02, and an SMD of some reasonable capacity... four or eight serial lines, and a 9 Track drive w/interface, LA36 and a real VT100 (or two or three)... operating system of course to be wiped completely off any media and I'll write my own in assembler. ;} Again, the machine has to be basically working, ie. booting an OS from mass storage without regular hiccups/glitches. My wish includes media and doc, engineering prints, etc. Major assemblies for spare parts is also on the List. I don't expect find the whole thing in one place (wouldn't *that* be nice) but the core components have to already integrated and 'playing well' with each other. That would be CPU, SMD, RL02, SLU and enough room on the backplane to flesh it out further. I am willing to spend money on this, but on a strictly hobbyist level. I'll be relocating to the Southwest, most likely Arizona, but my schedule will be flexible for making rescue roadtrips. QST QST QST QST: ATTN: classiccmp hams... I will be at Dayton this year... let's organize a classiccmp QSO... whatsay???? I thought to give a heads-up to anyone in the (sort-of) western US as to my Wishlist. I am not interested in any other models than the /44, and, if I can control the addiction this time, I'll stick with a single nicely restored and well-maintained System, rather than a house full of racks gathering dust. Why do I feel like I just fell of the Wagon?? ;} Cheerz Y'all John From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Dec 26 07:10:30 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Be no more, get a BeBox? Message-ID: <200112261310.IAA15727@wordstock.com> All, When did the the BeBox originally come out? Check out http://www.be.com ... On January 16th the is going to be a public liquidation auction. Maybe there will be some BeBoxen? Happy Holidaze, Bryan Pope From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Dec 26 13:21:10 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: Be no more, get a BeBox? In-Reply-To: <200112261310.IAA15727@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3C29CEC6.22114.302428BF@localhost> A slashdot resonse claims that it is going to be like a large tech-garage sale. It's times like this that I wish I lived in lotus-land. I don't think it falls within the 10 year rule but, like the NEXT, is sure to become a classic. Lawrence > All, > > When did the the BeBox originally come out? > > Check out http://www.be.com ... On January 16th the is going to be a > public liquidation auction. Maybe there will be some BeBoxen? > > Happy Holidaze, > > Bryan Pope Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Dec 26 07:37:05 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: PDP11 Message-ID: Did anyone snag this?? (see below...). I haven't caught up on my digest reading .... This is about 1/2 hour from me, straight shot down Route 2. My wife would divorce me if I took it, but I'd LOVE to help rescue it for someone else... And I own a pickup w/ a cover... Rich B. ----------------------------- From: "Thomas R. Fitch" To: "'mrbill@pdp11.org'" Subject: PDP11 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:19:23 -0500 Mr. Bill, I have a PDP11 in two towers, with 2 crt's and keyboards, and a keyboard printer. All in excellent condition. I also have all of the original documentation. This product is available for pickup from our Turners Falls, MA location. Please contact me if you have any interest. Tom Fitch, Treasurer Esleeck Manufacturing Company 36 Canal Road Turners Falls, MA 01376 (413) 863-4326 ext 206 From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 26 08:48:28 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E018@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: James L. Rice [mailto:jrice@texoma.net] > You are lucky. I changed from Wife 1.0 who hated technology and > computers to Wife 2.0 who is an avid user (even if I can't > get her off > M$ products) and not only tolerates my collection but encourages it. > She is the contributer of the second cube as well as the NeXT Color > Printer. The change over from version 1.0 to 2.0 was very expensive > ...in fact so expensive that I would hesitate to do it again. On the other hand, your current wife device seems very well-behaved, so I'd not see why you should change again. ;) It's difficult to find one that will maintain stability with even a nominally normal relationship signal at any rate, and you're better off sticking with what works. It helps, of course, if you can handle the PayAttentionToME signals in real-time. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 26 08:53:02 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E019@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Either have a key or "mknod /dev/big_screwdriver" and be handy with a > soldering iron. The key not only locks the cabinet, but controls the > boot sequence. You need it. I imagine one could fit a switch in place of the keylock, if you really want. > Some things you will want to consider. > The 320 & 32h need proprietary serial cables. I can supply pinouts. > They, as well as a few others, also have a proprietary external SCSI > interface. It looks like a 68-pin connector, but it's not. Reminds me of the interface on the MicroVAX 3100 machines, which also looks like a 68-pin connector, and it is(!), but it's a SCSI-1 interface. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 26 12:24:40 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: [geeks] IBM RS/6000 7012-3XX In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E019@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > Either have a key or "mknod /dev/big_screwdriver" and be handy with a > > soldering iron. The key not only locks the cabinet, but controls the > > boot sequence. You need it. > > I imagine one could fit a switch in place of the keylock, if you really > want. Yup. If I can physically get into the box, I prefer to drill out the tumbler pins, but the screwdriver method usually leaves a switch. Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 26 09:47:05 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:46 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E01C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: UberTechnoid@Home.com [mailto:UberTechnoid@Home.com] > Good luck! I can't even find a PROM command manual for the > thing. Come > to mention it, DOES anyone have a prom command listing for > the vs400/60 > and/or the Sparcstation 4/330 (sun4)? I have a Sun SBUS development kit which contains (among other things) a quick-reference card which lists most OpenBoot monitor commands, and a full (realatively large, and I'd rather not copy the whole deal if I can help it. :) forth-like-monitor-language reference manual. As for the VAX, I have no reference, but the 4000s were new enough to support the "help" command. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 26 10:09:34 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:46 2005 Subject: More... Re: VS4000 hardware questions Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E01D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: UberTechnoid@Home.com [mailto:UberTechnoid@Home.com] > Help does nothing really useful. What I'd like to know for > instance, is > how do I set the vax to do an unattended boot. It has been > stuck at a two > stage boot since before I even got an OS on it. It powers > on, self-tests, > boots to a second-level CLI, I type C for Continue and there we go. Actually that's probably a problem with your default boot options. Those are AFAIK unique depending on the system you're booting, and as such ought to be handled in the O/S documentation. > A prom manual would tell me how to get rid of the second-level cli. See above -- I'm not so sure. :) All else aside, though, you may consider checking the values of all the built-in variables for obvious problems. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 26 10:44:24 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:46 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E01F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > I think this is less of a pro-Linux issue and more of a > use-the-right-tool-for-the-job issue, which sure as hell ain't Windows > if you want to put stuff on the web. Then again, when is windows the right tool for the job? (Unless you want to orchestrate a cruel practical joke...) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 26 11:10:38 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:46 2005 Subject: I'm back!!!! In-Reply-To: RE: I'm back!!!! (Christopher Smith) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E01F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <15402.1166.405422.57319@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 26, Christopher Smith wrote: > > I think this is less of a pro-Linux issue and more of a > > use-the-right-tool-for-the-job issue, which sure as hell ain't Windows > > if you want to put stuff on the web. > > Then again, when is windows the right tool for the job? (Unless you want to > orchestrate a cruel practical joke...) Hmm. It's the right tool if you want to put on a tie, be a "team player", use the word "key" a lot (and not meaning a piece of metal with "XX2247" stamped on it), and pretend to be indespensible while collecting a huge salary for little or no real work. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Dec 26 11:02:57 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:46 2005 Subject: 720k floppy Message-ID: I've located 35 disks. Do you want them? -----Original Message----- From: Golemancd@aol.com [mailto:Golemancd@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 6:07 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 720k floppy anyone know where i can find some 720k floppies thanks Joee From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Wed Dec 26 13:26:49 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:46 2005 Subject: 720k floppy References: Message-ID: <3C2A2479.760B2A5E@verizon.net> Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you simply cover the hole (with tape) on a 1.44mb floppy to make a 720 mb diskette? Obvisously the hole is the one that isn't the write protect one (i.e. doesn't have the slide tab). Eric "Feldman, Robert" wrote: > I've located 35 disks. Do you want them? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Golemancd@aol.com [mailto:Golemancd@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 6:07 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: 720k floppy > > anyone know where i can find some 720k floppies > thanks > Joee From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 26 17:50:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:46 2005 Subject: 720k floppy In-Reply-To: <3C2A2479.760B2A5E@verizon.net> from "Eric Chomko" at Dec 26, 1 02:26:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 971 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011226/99076766/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Dec 26 14:39:17 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: 720k floppy Message-ID: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you simply cover the hole >(with tape) on a 1.44mb floppy to make a 720 mb diskette? >Obvisously the hole is the one that isn't the write protect >one (i.e. doesn't have the slide tab). I can tell you, ignoring all the "technical" issues, based purely on experience... this is a BAD idea. It will work... for a while, but you are almost guarenteed that the disk will fail eventually. I don't have ANY that have worked long term... and I still do this trick from time to time when I need a 720k disk briefly... it is always easier for me to just convert a 1.44 then it is for me to dig out a 720k. They usually work long enough for me to copy a file to and from the disk... but within a few reads and writes, it will die. Reformatting will refresh it for a few more reads and writes... but again, it will die shortly. So if your data is important, DON'T do this. There are companies that still sell DD disks brand new, I would just hunt one down, and buy a bunch. -c From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 26 11:35:20 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) Message-ID: The PAL was introduced in 1978, Other types of programmable logic devices were available earlier, (FPLA's for example) Here is a quote from one of the PAL's inventors (Andy Chan -- now at QuickLogic) "MMI's PAL was designed to overcome the problems associated with FPLA that made it difficult for end users. A proprietary programmer was necessary and a cumbersome inputting process (creating the design in Boolean equations, translating them into a bitmap and typing that into a machine that generated a paper tape for the programmer to read) meant that if the design didn't work, it was impossible to know at what step something went awry. Our PAL was faster and used less power, but the main improvement was in its ease of use, Chan said, noting that the first PAL chip was introduced in 1978." PCW From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 26 13:29:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Dec 26, 1 09:35:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1030 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011226/f171f3ba/attachment.ksh From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:09:54 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011226200954.79014.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I would disagree with the term 'proprietary' there. I've just opened the > Signetis 82S100 FPLA data sheet (which is probably the most popular of > the FPLAs at the time). Ah yes, our unreliable friend in the middle of the C-64. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Wed Dec 26 20:28:37 2001 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) References: Message-ID: <00f601c18e7e$310a8100$9865fea9@downstairs> I scanned a few pages from a book I co-authored, I skipped the figures. If any one wants to see a figure or picture I can put it a web site. ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley www.swtpc.com ----------------------------------------------- >From Practical Design Using Programmable Logic By David Pellerin and Michael Holley Prentice Hall 1991 The First User-Configurable PLAs Intersil Corporation and Signetics Corporation, both manufacturers of PROMS, realized that the structure of National's DM7575/DM8575 mask-programmed PLA device was ideal for a field programmable device. It became a race between Intersil and Signetics to bring the first such devices to market. Both of these companies called their proposed new devices FPLAs for field programmable logic array. In the June 2, 1975 issue of EE Times, Intersil announced the IM5200 Field Programmable Logic Array (FPLA). Soon after, Signetics introduced its 825100. These devices were ahead of their time in many ways. The data sheet for Intersil's IM5200 FPLA is shown in Figure 2.3. These first FPLAs were powerful devices (the 825100 is still available, under the new name of PLS100). They provided a reasonable number of inputs and outputs, and were flexible enough in their design to be used for a wide variety of logic applications. While on the surface the IM5200 and 825100 looked very similar (the 825100 featured two more inputs than the IM5200), they were in fact quite different in terms of their programming technology. Rather than use the well understood fusible link technology for their new device, Intersil chose to use a new type of programmable element that had been developed for their PROM devices. This programming element was designed to improve the programming yields over earlier programmable devices. The technology, called avalanche induced migration, or AIM, utilizes an open base NPN transistor as the programming element. To program an AIM element, a high current is forced through the transistor from the emitter to the collector. This causes a short from the emitter to the base, which leaves the transistor to operate as a diode. Unfortunately, the actual devices that rolled out of the Intersil's foundry turned out to be unreliable, with low programming yields, and the Intersil devices were not successful in the market. The Signetics 825100, which utilized the fusible link programming technology, was more reliable and more successful in the market. Another factor in the success of the Signetics devices was the efforts of Napoleone Cavlan who was, at that time, Signetics' Manager of Advanced Products. The new devices were completely unfamiliar to most circuit designers and required a much higher level of user education and promotion than the earlier programmable devices. Even with a high level of promotion, documentation, and applications support, most digital designers chose not to use these first PLDs because the devices were still perceived to be too difficult to use and because of the risk of relying on the new technology for critical circuit elements. Even with the reasonable reliability of the Signetics devices, the FPLA had a relatively slow maximum operating speed (due to the two programmable arrays), was expensive, and had a poor reputation for testability. Another factor limiting the acceptance of the FPLA was the large package. The Signetics part, for example, was contained in a 28-pin DIP (dual inline package) that was over a half an inch wide. Today, 28 pins is standard for PLCC (plastic leaded chip carrier) type packages but, in the 1970s, smaller packages were the norm. Physical and operating limitations aside, other difficulties were experienced by designers who used the devices. The challenge in using the FPLA devices stemmed from a conceptual difference between how the designers had created circuits in the past and how they were forced to create them using FPLAs. Designs that were to be implemented in FPLAs had to be described in an unfamiliar format that bore little resemblance to the familiar schematics or Boolean equations that logic designers had used in the past. To design a PLA circuit and program a device, the user would first convert the design into a tabular form called H&L. A sample of the H&L format is shown in Figure 2.4. The data from the form was then entered into a device programmer, such the Data I/O Model 10 shown in Figure 2.5. This programmer was designed specifically for the Intersil and Signetics devices and had a CRT and built-in H&L editor. A major advance that this programmer had over the previous PROM programmers was its ability to exercise the programmed part functionally and compare its operation to the results calculated in the programmer. This meant that faulty or misprogrammed parts could be quickly identified and rejected. GE's Associative Logic Although Intersil and Signetics were the first companies to successfully market field programmable logic devices, they were by no means the first to develop them. As early as 1971, General Electric Company was developing a programmable logic device based on the new PROM technology. The device was developed by David Greer, then with GE in Syracuse, NY. GE's experimental device improved on IBM's ROAM structure by providing an internal path for OR-plane signals to directly reenter the AND plane. This allowed the use of multilevel logic with no waste of I/O pins. Late in 1971, an experimental MOS programmable logic device was completed at the General Electric Research and Development Center in Schenectady, NY by Gerry Michon and Hugh Burke. Not only did this device feature the improved PLA-type logic array, but also used the floating gate UV-erasable technology announced earlier that year by Intel. The GE device (shown in Figures 2.6 and 2.7) was actually the first erasable PLD ever developed, predating commercially available EPLDs by over a decade. Researchers at General Electric not only developed the first working FPLAs and EPLDs, but also described and patented a folded array structure remarkably similar to the folded arrays that began appearing in complex PLDs nearly fifteen years later. In 1974, under the terms of a patent and trade secrets agreement with GE, Monolithic Memories began the development of a mask-programmable logic device incorporating the GE innovations. The device was named the programmable associative logic array, or PALA. The device (MMI part number 5760/6760) was completed in 1976, and could implement multilevel or sequential circuits of well over 100 equivalent gates. In addition to its advanced structure, the device was supported by a highly automated design environment developed by GE. Designs were entered using Boolean equations and converted automatically to a mask pattern. The system even included a facility for test vector generation and simulation. While the MMI/GE device was never marketed, it did serve as a model for PLDs produced by a number of manufacturers in later years. MMI's PAL Although the Signetics devices enjoyed some success, PLDs didn't really gain widespread acceptance until the late 1970s, when MMI introduced the PAL device. After working with GE on the PALA device, MMI's first effort in the design of their devices was to reproduce the Intersil and Signetics FPLAs. A few hundred copies of the Signetics 825100 were produced for internal evaluation, but these devices were never released. From this experience, and MMI's earlier experience with GE, the PAL device was born. The new family of devices was announced in the summer of 1978. The project to create the PAL device was managed by John Birkner and the actual PAL circuit was designed by H. T. Chua. Birkner had come from Computer Automation, Inc., where he had developed a 16-bit processor using 80 standard logic devices. His experience with standard logic led him to believe that user programmable devices would be more attractive to users if the devices were designed to replace standard logic. This meant that the package sizes had to be more typical of the existing devices, and the speeds had to be improved. The new devices that resulted from this thinking were a breakthrough and a huge success in the market. The PAL devices utilized the now mature and reasonably reliable PROM fuse technology and featured only one programmable array. This combination resulted in a device with much faster operation than the earlier FPLAs. Programming of the devices was simple since they were implemented in industry standard packages and used well understood PROM fuse technology. One factor in the success of the PAL devices was the high level of customer support offered by MMI in the form of applications and user documentation that served to demystify the design process. The PAL Handbook, written by Birkner himself, provided a conceptual bridge between the discrete logic methods of the past and the high-level design methods of the future. One indication of the success of the PAL is that, ten years after the introduction of the first 161_8 and 1688 PALS, these devices still made up the majority of all PLDs used even though there were over 200 unique PLD device types available at that time. In recent years, more flexible devices such as the 22V 10 have begun eroding the 16L8/16R8 monopoly, but even these devices are based in large part on the original Birkner/Chua design. Similarly, the PALASM language remains a widely used method of PLD design description. Most, if not all, of the current PLD design tools can trace their heritage back to PALASM. Another factor in the success of the PAL was the level of programming support. The earlier FPLAs had suffered from the same programming problems that plagued early PROMS; unreliable customer-built programmers and little understood programming algorithms. John Birkner and his crew were determined to make the PAL a success, so they worked very closely with programmer companies to ensure that reliable programming would be accessible to the device users. The first PAL programmer was developed as a joint effort between MMI and Data I/O and actually utilized two PALS as part of its construction. This meant that the first prototype PAL programmer had to be bootstrapped by emulating the function of its own PALs with PROMS and some additional TTL devices. The first few years of PAL production weren't without their problems, however. Production couldn't keep up with demand, and production yields suffered. In addition, the programming algorithms (the specific programming voltage and waveform specifications) hadn't been finalized, leading to often unacceptable programming yields. The PAL shortage had a serious impact on end-users of the time. Tracy Kidder, in his book Soul of a New Machine, chronicles the development of the Data General MV8000 computer. The designers of the MV8000 had gambled on the new PAL devices, and were soon feeling the effects of limited supply. Kidder describes a plaque awarded to Data General engineers working on the redesigned Eclipse computer, another large design that used a number of PALS in its construction. The plaque was named the PAL award, but where a commemorative device should have been, there was instead an empty socket. Digital Equipment Corporation also felt the effects of limited PAL supplies when designing their new VAX 730 computer. To overcome the supply problems, DEC's semiconductor liaison suggested to MMI that they should produce a mask programmable version of the PAL for large quantity production. This was done, and the resulting product was named the HAL for hard array logic. HAL devices corresponding to all of the PAL devices were produced. These devices were mask programmed as specified by DEC and other customers. The HAL devices weren't without their own problems; in one early production run, MMI neglected to properly label the many HAL silicon wafers that were being produced for the VAX. According to Paul Franklin, then with MMI, it became necessary to carefully examine every wafer with a microscope in order to determine exactly which HAL devices they were composed of. The PAL survived its early teething pains and exploded in the market, earning MMI millions of dollars. The HAL turned out to be a marketable product as well and is still available. For their efforts, MMI rewarded both John Birkner and H. T. Chua with unique bonuses-new cars every year. The October, 1982 issue of National Geographic, in an article about silicon valley's glory years, pictured Birkner and Chua with their fourth such annual bonuses-a Mercedes and a Porsche. Another factor in the success of the PAL devices was PALASM, which stands for PAL Assembler. PALASM was a computer program written by John Birkner that converted design descriptions composed of Boolean equations directly into programming data for a specified PAL device. Boolean equations have been used since the early days of logic design (long before the integrated circuit was conceived of) to express logic functions. Boolean algebra is at the core of any university course in digital logic, so it's a form of representation that is more familiar to engineers than tabular forms. PALASM was a simple computer program written in FORTRAN. The entire program required only six pages of FORTRAN source code and was published in the PAL data book. A typical PALASM design file is shown in Figure 2.8. The simplicity of the PALASM language made it possible for programmer manufacturers to implement the language directly in the programming hardware, as was done in the Data I/O LogicPak, the Structured Design programmer, and other similar PAL programmers. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Wed Dec 26 22:23:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) References: Message-ID: <001f01c18e8e$40167b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's not entirely clear what's meant here, but if he means that the MMI 16-X/R/L/whatever series is all that he's including among his definition then it's likely he's right. The notion that the process for generating MMI PALs was any simpler than for other mfg's devices, he's reciting the party line and nothing resembling the truth, as PALs also require logic equations and programmers, software, etc, dedicated to the task. FPLA's were later thought-of as SUPER-PALs, since they had both programmable AND arrays and programmable OR arrays. This was probably too much for some designers, but not for all of them. As I said, it reflects the party line more than reality. That was his job. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) > > The PAL was introduced in 1978, Other types of programmable logic devices > were available earlier, (FPLA's for example) > > Here is a quote from one of the PAL's inventors (Andy Chan -- now at > QuickLogic) > > "MMI's PAL was designed to overcome the problems associated with FPLA that > made it difficult for end users. A proprietary programmer was necessary > and a cumbersome inputting process (creating the design in Boolean > equations, translating them into a bitmap and typing that into a machine > that generated a paper tape for the programmer to read) meant that if the > design didn't work, it was impossible to know at what step something went > awry. Our PAL was faster and used less power, but the main improvement > was in its ease of use, Chan said, noting that the first PAL chip was > introduced in 1978." > > > > PCW > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 26 13:14:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Dec 25, 1 06:09:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 455 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011226/04a1668c/attachment.ksh From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 26 15:05:29 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 20:14:55 CET References: Message-ID: <20011226220529.C7508@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.26 20:14 Tony Duell wrote: > Holiday??? I've spent the last 2 days with soldering iron and logic > analyser fixing HP plotters.... Uhhm. Hot iron. That reminds me. I have to build that adapter cable to connect a 5.25" floppy to the RX02 emulating 8" floppy adapter, that will become part of my MicroVAX 3900... > Of course I enjoy doing that, which is why I was doing it. But it's > also what I do most of the other days in the year, so it's hardly a > holiday ;-) May I call you a geek? ;-) BTW: I earn my mony as a programmer and what do I do for my private enjoinment this days: I am porting (OK, trying to port) pdksh-5.2.14 to 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73... ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 26 16:02:29 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: Re: Happy Holidays! (Jochen Kunz) References: <20011226220529.C7508@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15402.18677.675589.611493@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 26, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Of course I enjoy doing that, which is why I was doing it. But it's > > also what I do most of the other days in the year, so it's hardly a > > holiday ;-) > May I call you a geek? ;-) > > BTW: I earn my mony as a programmer and what do I do for my private > enjoinment this days: I am porting (OK, trying to port) pdksh-5.2.14 to > 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73... ;-) Woohoo! And WHO is a geek here? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 26 18:04:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: <20011226220529.C7508@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Dec 26, 1 10:05:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011227/42a54aad/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Dec 26 22:27:56 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! References: Message-ID: <003101c18e8e$dbfbd860$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, the Christmas holiday traditionally is a 12-day period from Christmas Day to Epiphany. Unfortunately, Americans seem to dislike it so much that they compress it into a single day. To make up for it, they start the agonizing period of promotional advertising in late September, nowadays. I, for one, think it should be banned from print or electronic media until after noon on the 22nd of December, so one doesn't tire of it all before the fact. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Happy Holidays! > > > > > > Happy Holidays! > > Holiday??? I've spent the last 2 days with soldering iron and logic > analyser fixing HP plotters.... > > Of course I enjoy doing that, which is why I was doing it. But it's also > what I do most of the other days in the year, so it's hardly a holiday ;-) > > Anyway, although it's a bit late, I hope all members of the list had a > happy Newtonsday/Midwinder/Christmas (or whatever you decide to celebrate > at this time of year). > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 26 13:17:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: old TEK 4662 plotter In-Reply-To: <003001c18dc3$dfc5b5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Dec 25, 1 09:14:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 584 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011226/77f9922d/attachment.ksh From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Dec 26 13:20:06 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? Message-ID: <3C2A22E6.4010903@aurora.regenstrief.org> [For once I did not crosspost and now PDP-8 Lovers list is not working right, so it goes to classiccmp again.] Hi, after dishwashing I reassembled my "new" PDP8/A and it's working again, after David Gesswein hinted me to the programmers console quick reference, I was able to enter my first manually assembled programs and it's indeed working! I must say that I never thought I would ever manually assemble a machine program, but with the PDP8 it's remarkably easy. My first PDP-8 program is a memory test, and I was glad I did it because I found a problem. My test goes through all memory fields and writes into each cell its address in the field. Then it reads that address out of each field again and so finds problems. I have 3 16k words boards and one 8k word board. Two of the 16k boards are good but both seem to want to play the role of the lower fields 0 to 3. The third 16k board plays the high fields 4 to 7, but it has a systematic error masking out bits 6 and 7. All data X I write into it is read as X AND 7717. The 8k board has a similar bit mask error, it's mask is 6777. Is this a fatal problem or can one fix it by cleaning some contacts or redo some crummy soldering? I assume the core mats are all fine, because they would not just lose a few columns of data bits, right? I also assume that others had to deal with similar issues, because apparently such errors are not uncommon. What's the trick? (I did swap them into various backplane slots, just to make sure it's not just a gap in the data bus lines. ... BTW, does the OMNIBUS need something like grant continuity cards for intermittent empty slots?) thanks for your advice, -Gunther PS, just to show off (and to save this stuff from my hand- written notes) here's my program. It's ugly spaghetti code with quirks because I had to modify it at the console (remember: never start coding without having done your work on paper :-) I now understand much better :-) I'm not sure I have the symbolic assembly language right, I may use some things (like the Z modifier for zero-page addressing) that is not standard but helps me code right. 0020 0000 LOC , 0 TESTED MEMORY LOCATION 0021 0000 FLD , 0 TESTED FIELD NUMBER WRITE LOOP 0200 7200 CLA A = 0 0201 1254 TAD FLDINI A += FLDINI 0202 3021 DCA Z FLD FLD = A; A = 0 0203 1257 TAD LOCINI A += LOCINI 0204 3020 DCA Z LOC LOC = A; A = 0 0205 1020 WRLOOP, TAD Z LOC A += LOC 0206 3420 DCA IZ LOC *LOC = A; A = 0 0207 2020 ISZ Z LOC IF(++LOC == 0) 0210 5205 JMP WRLOOP ELSE GOTO WRLOOP 0211 4234 IFRET, JMS INCFLD THEN A = INCFLD() 0212 7450 SNA IF(A != 0) 0213 5205 JMP WRLOOP ELSE GOTO WRLOOP /*FALLTHROUGH*/ READ/CHECK LOOP 0214 7200 CLA A = 0 0215 1254 TAD FLDINI A += FLDINI 0216 3021 DCA Z FLD FLD = A; A = 0 0217 1257 TAD LOCINI A += LOCINI 0220 3020 DCA Z LOC LOC = A; A = 0 0221 1020 RDLOOP, TAD Z LOC A += LOC 0222 7041 CIA A = -A 0223 1420 TAD IZ LOC A += *LOC 0224 7440 SZA IF(A != 0) 0225 7402 ERROR, HLT ELSE HALT 0226 2020 ISZ Z LOC THEN IF(++LOC == 0) 0227 5221 JMP RDLOOP ELSE GOTO RDLOOP 0230 4234 JMS INCFLD THEN A = INCFLD() 0231 7450 SNA IF(A != 0) 0232 5221 JMP RDLOOP ELSE GOTO RDLOOP 0233 7402 OK, HLT THEN HALT INCREASE DATA FIELD SUBROUTINE returns 0 if success resets field to 0 and returns -1 if overflow 0234 0000 INCFLD, 0 0235 2021 ISZ Z FLD IF(++FLD == 0) 0236 7300 CLA CLL ELSE { A = 0; L = 0 } 0237 1021 TAD Z FLD THEN A += FLD 0240 7047 CIA A = -A 0241 1255 TAD FLDMAX A += FLDMAX 0242 7510 SPA IF(A >= 0) 0243 5261 JMP RSTFLD ELSE GOTO RSTFLD 0244 7300 CLA CLL THEN { A = 0; L = 0 } 0245 1021 TAD Z FLD A += FLD 0246 7006 RAL 2 A <<= 2 0247 7004 RAL A <<= 1 0250 1260 TAD CDFTMP A += CDFTMP 0251 3252 DCA CDFDO CDFDO = A; A = 0 0252 0000 CDFDO, 0 0253 5634 JMP I INCFLD RETURN INITIALIZATION VALUES 0254 0000 FLDINI, 0 0255 0007 FLDMAX, 7 0256 0257 0300 LOCINI, 0300 0260 6201 CDFTMP, CDF RESET THE MEMORY FIELD BACK TO 0 assert A == -1 0261 7000 RSTFLD, NOP 0262 1254 TAD FLDINI A += FLDINI 0263 3021 DCA Z FLD FLD = A; A = 0 0264 4234 JMS INCFLD A = INCFLD() 0265 7040 CMA A ~= A 0266 5212 JMP IFRET GOTO IFRET -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 26 13:44:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: <3C2A22E6.4010903@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Dec 26, 1 02:20:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011226/0c6bd27b/attachment.ksh From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:08:37 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: <3C2A22E6.4010903@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011226200837.32131.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gunther Schadow wrote: > after dishwashing I reassembled my "new" PDP8/A and it's > working again... Congrats! > My first PDP-8 program is a memory test... Good idea. I have a couple of quick routines I use as a basic check-out, once I know I can read and write from/to field 0 reliably - one is an inchworm for blinkenlights (or a counter for the -8/a) > I have 3 16k words boards and one 8k word board. Two of > the 16k boards are good but both seem to want to play the > role of the lower fields 0 to 3. There are jumpers to "fix" that, if you want to run with two good 16K boards. > The third 16k board > plays the high fields 4 to 7, but it has a systematic > error masking out bits 6 and 7. All data X I write into > it is read as X AND 7717. The 8k board has a similar bit > mask error, it's mask is 6777. Is this a fatal problem > or can one fix it by cleaning some contacts or redo some > crummy soldering? Could be bad data bus drivers/receivers. You'd need to trace through the circuits to see if it's bad data getting _to_ the core or coming from the core. > I assume the core mats are all fine, > because they would not just lose a few columns of data > bits, right? I also assume that others had to deal with > similar issues, because apparently such errors are not > uncommon. What's the trick? Well... I doubt the core planes are bad, but I suppose it's possible. I would suspect the bus buffers first, then, depending on the exact nature of the problem there are failure modes of the inhibit drivers that could whack your bits as they pass through a memory read cycle, but that's not horribly likely. The trick is to sit there with the schematics and generate write cycles and read cycles through the front panel as your trace the flow of bits through the memory. The good news is that with known working and known not-working bits, you can write 7777 to the core and watch a working cycle on one part of the board and compare it to the non-working part. I cannot help you with hex-wide core memory schematics. I don't even think I _have_ any PDP-8/a core anymore (had some once; sold to a 3rd-party reseller like Newman or one of those DEC dealers in MN or somewhere; all I have for -8 core is pre-OMNIBUS and a little -8/e core) It's not cool like core, but did anyone ever come up with a modern battery-backed-up SRAM board? I'm thinking of discussions of a few years ago and talk about a quad-width OMNIBUS board w/2x62256 SRAMs. Cheap to make (not counting a 1 sq. ft PCB), but compared to what we used to pay for RAM...) and made with modern components. It may have all been discussion without even a schematic generated, but I had to ask. > (I did swap them into various backplane slots, just to > make sure it's not just a gap in the data bus lines. I wouldn't be so worried about gaps as much as dirty/corroded backplane slots. Checking in a couple of different places is a good plan, as is simply reseating the boards to wipe the fingers/backplane sockets. > ... BTW, does the OMNIBUS need something like grant > continuity cards for intermittent empty slots?) No. Empty slots are fine. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 26 18:26:22 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do?" (Dec 26, 12:08) References: <20011226200837.32131.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10112270026.ZM5536@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 26, 12:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Gunther Schadow wrote: > Good idea. I have a couple of quick routines I use as a basic > check-out, once I know I can read and write from/to field 0 > reliably - one is an inchworm for blinkenlights (or a counter > for the -8/a) I do that too. I also have a couple of very short toggle-in programs for the console serial line, one of which echos what you type. The last item I have that might be useful is a uploader that sends files, either plain or papertape images, to the RIM or BIN loaders -- it's on Kevin McQuiggin's page at http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/software/new-send.c > > The third 16k board > > plays the high fields 4 to 7, but it has a systematic > > error masking out bits 6 and 7. > Well... I doubt the core planes are bad, but I suppose it's possible. > I would suspect the bus buffers first, then, depending on the exact nature > of the problem there are failure modes of the inhibit drivers that could > whack your bits as they pass through a memory read cycle, but that's > not horribly likely. > > The trick is to sit there with the schematics and generate write cycles > and read cycles through the front panel as your trace the flow of bits > through the memory. I'd agree with that. It's more likely a logic problem than a core mat problem. > It's not cool like core, but did anyone ever come up with a modern > battery-backed-up SRAM board? I'm thinking of discussions of a few > years ago and talk about a quad-width OMNIBUS board w/2x62256 SRAMs. > Cheap to make (not counting a 1 sq. ft PCB), but compared to what we > used to pay for RAM...) and made with modern components. It may have > all been discussion without even a schematic generated, but I had to > ask. Yes, I've got one. It even has a connector to link to an interface in a PC, so you can squirt (or suck) data in (or out) directly. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 20:21:00 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: <10112270026.ZM5536@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011227022100.42686.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > I do that too. I also have a couple of very short toggle-in programs for > the console serial line, one of which echos what you type. Got one of those, too - in a memo on my Palm, so it's right there when I need to toggle it in. > > It's not cool like core, but did anyone ever come up with a modern > > battery-backed-up SRAM board? > > Yes, I've got one. It even has a connector to link to an interface in a > PC, so you can squirt (or suck) data in (or out) directly. That's a cool feature. You got docs? Is this commercial or homebrew? How about a digital picture? 75dpi scan? Neat! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 26 21:10:30 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: <20011227022100.42686.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > It's not cool like core, but did anyone ever come up with a modern > > > battery-backed-up SRAM board? > > > > Yes, I've got one. It even has a connector to link to an interface in a > > PC, so you can squirt (or suck) data in (or out) directly. > > That's a cool feature. You got docs? Is this commercial or homebrew? > How about a digital picture? 75dpi scan? This may be old news, but there's a site that has a few gadgets like that, including an emulated TU58 "tape drive" that uses SRAM. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ Some of their software, and the build specs to their "PDP-8 on a card" is GPL, but I think the TU58-alike is commercial. Doc From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 26 18:35:23 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: Gunther Schadow "PDP8/A memory problems, what to do?" (Dec 26, 14:20) References: <3C2A22E6.4010903@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <10112270035.ZM5556@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 26, 14:20, Gunther Schadow wrote: > My first PDP-8 program is a memory test, and I was glad I > did it because I found a problem. My test goes through all > memory fields and writes into each cell its address in the > field. Then it reads that address out of each field again > and so finds problems. Good idea. I meant to mention in my followup to Ethan, that the diagnostics are also available, at http://pdp-8.org/papertape/ and the corresponding documentation is available at http://www.pdp8.net/query_docs/query_all.html The papertape images have headers, and the way the BIN loader works, you need to strip the ASCII header but leave at least part of the top-bit-set leader part at beginning and end. The "send" program I mentioned will take care of that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 20:18:39 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: <10112270035.ZM5556@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011227021839.47722.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 26, 14:20, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > My first PDP-8 program is a memory test... > > Good idea. I meant to mention in my followup to Ethan, that the > diagnostics are also available, at > > http://pdp-8.org/papertape/ Nice. Fortunately for me, I have several boxes of DEC diagnostic tapes (nothing unusual, but I'll check my list against what you have) for the -8/L and the -8/e. If anything interesting turns up in my collection, I'll let you know. I do have a few DECUS tapes, including some FOCAL games. > and the corresponding documentation is available at > > http://www.pdp8.net/query_docs/query_all.html I've been there to print out the docs for the tapes I have. Many thanks! (I do have the original sheets I got with the software, but it's been filed and refiled so many times that I haven't seen it in years, but the papertapes have stayed on the top layer). If I didn't have a high-speed reader, I'd have already looked into down- loading the tape images from a larger, net-connected computer. I may have to do that when I start digging into the -8/e some more. It's on the list below my -8/L and my Heath H-11 floppy controller (just got some 8837 chips to perhaps fix the hang on the interrupt when the card is installed in the grant chain). At the moment, I think I have an M865 that works and an M8650 that may or may not work. If I'm forced to use 20mA, I guess I'll have to dig up a genuine IBM 8-bit serial card and mod it to switch it to current loop. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 14:13:58 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters Message-ID: <20011226201358.88359.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> With the recent discussions of the Be liquidation sale, I was wracking my brain for the project/website of an *analog* CPU load meter. Someone out there wrote a Linux driver to spit out CPU load on the parallel port, to which is attached a simple ladder-type D-to-A and an analog panel meter for CPU load. I can *not* find this again, even after an hour of Googling, Altavista-ing and Freshmeating. Anybody else remember this? Got any URLs? It would be a blast to watch the needle peg when, say, you fired up a CPU pig of a game or were digesting /usr/spool/news or some such. It would be less interesting on a system running, say, Seti-At-Home where the load is more-or-less constant. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Dec 26 14:29:01 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: <20011226201358.88359.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011226142647.022bf0d0@pc> At 12:13 PM 12/26/2001 -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: >With the recent discussions of the Be liquidation sale, I was wracking >my brain for the project/website of an *analog* CPU load meter. Someone >out there wrote a Linux driver to spit out CPU load on the parallel >port, to which is attached a simple ladder-type D-to-A and an analog >panel meter for CPU load. That's just so delightfully twisted. On a tangent, I wondered if anyone made "repeater" cables with a sensor on one end, and an LED on the other. Like a fiber pipe, it would let you watch an LED that's actually located on the back of your computer, or on a distant device. - John From foo at siconic.com Wed Dec 26 16:31:07 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: <20011226201358.88359.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > With the recent discussions of the Be liquidation sale, I was wracking > my brain for the project/website of an *analog* CPU load meter. > Someone out there wrote a Linux driver to spit out CPU load on the > parallel port, to which is attached a simple ladder-type D-to-A and an > analog panel meter for CPU load. > > I can *not* find this again, even after an hour of Googling, > Altavista-ing and Freshmeating. Anybody else remember this? Got any > URLs? > > It would be a blast to watch the needle peg when, say, you fired up a > CPU pig of a game or were digesting /usr/spool/news or some such. It > would be less interesting on a system running, say, Seti-At-Home where > the load is more-or-less constant. A consultant I once hired suggested putting an old HP histogram onto a serial or parallel port and sending out signals to it at various points in your software. Doesn't answer your question but hints at another idea ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jrice at texoma.net Wed Dec 26 20:20:35 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters References: <20011226201358.88359.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C2A8573.4000907@texoma.net> Check this one: http://www.switkin.com/software/geeklights/ James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Ethan Dicks wrote: >With the recent discussions of the Be liquidation sale, I was wracking >my brain for the project/website of an *analog* CPU load meter. Someone >out there wrote a Linux driver to spit out CPU load on the parallel >port, to which is attached a simple ladder-type D-to-A and an analog >panel meter for CPU load. > >I can *not* find this again, even after an hour of Googling, Altavista-ing >and Freshmeating. Anybody else remember this? Got any URLs? > >It would be a blast to watch the needle peg when, say, you fired up >a CPU pig of a game or were digesting /usr/spool/news or some such. >It would be less interesting on a system running, say, Seti-At-Home >where the load is more-or-less constant. > >-ethan > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com > >. > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 21:48:04 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: <3C2A8573.4000907@texoma.net> Message-ID: <20011227034804.45270.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- "James L. Rice" wrote: > Check this one: > > http://www.switkin.com/software/geeklights/ Looks nice, but no schematics. I could probably figure out how he did it, but that's real work. -ethan > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >With the recent discussions of the Be liquidation sale, I was wracking > >my brain for the project/website of an *analog* CPU load meter... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1180.monmouth.com Wed Dec 26 14:37:01 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1180.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Wanted DEC VT1200 mouse and cable In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 25, 2001 10:23:34 pm" Message-ID: <200112262037.fBQKb1B02830@bg-tc-ppp1180.monmouth.com> > > I've got a working VT1200 minus mouse and video cable. > > I was going to cobble one up with some RG6 and a BNC connector and > > an N connector (if that's really an N connector) but I'd really rather > > I thought it was a TNC connector (like a BNC but screw lock, not > bayonet). I've certainly seen TNC connectors for the video output on DEC > X terminals. > > > find the right cable and spend more time enjoying the toy rather than > > fixing it. > > I guess this depends on the contents of your workbench, but in my case it > would probably take less time to solder up the cable than to look at the > catalogues to see who might sell one... > > -tony Well, I went off to Rat Shack and picked up a lousy solderless TNC for RG58 and a BNC to F adapter and had to find a dollar store for the RG59 since RG6 wouldn't fit the damned adapter and cut the 6' video cable and made a 3' video cable for the VT1200. Looks like a long and annoying way to do anything because by the time I mail ordered solder-on TNC's and BNC's I'd be up to my tail in wait times and shipping charges. I probably could've used one of my BNC RG59's and the TNC connector but I figured 75 Ohm Coax was called for with video. Now to find a DEC mouse so I can put this one back on the VaxStation. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 26 14:43:08 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: FW: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146744D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I'm sure someone here would want this... Subject: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:40:56 -0500 From: Chuck McCrobie Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms, comp.sys.dec As a testament to Digitial engineering, I have a VAX 3900 that's been sitting in my garage for 3 1/2 years that just booted up! CONDITIONS: Machine must be picked up in its entirety - ALL OR NOTHING Local pickup only - I don't want to ship this beast LOCATION: Laurel, MD 20724 You will need a large sedan, pickup, or similar vehicle. The external frame has been modified to come apart, so loading it will be easy. PARTICULARS: VAX 3900 - CPU - (Big cabinet) KA655-AA (M7625-AA) 32 MB RAM - MEMORY - MS650-BA (M7622-A) DESQA-SA - Ethernet - (M3127-PA) CXY08-M - 8 line Terminal controller - (M3119-YA) USD 1108 QBUS->SCSI Controller - in passthrough mode * This is a NON-DISCONNECTING controller - yes, I have the manual! TQK70 - tape controller - (M7559-00) * DRIVE IS _BROKEN_ KDA50 - disk controller - (M7164-00 & M7165-00) CMD 200 TM QBUS->SCSI Controller * Yes, I have the manual RA90 Drive (1.2GB) - Big and slow, but after 3 1/2 years idle time, still works TK70 - tape drive - BROKEN NOTES: The CMD 200 TM recognized a newer SCSI CD-ROM and booted VMS 7.1 install kit. Machine currently boots VMS 5.5-2. CXY08 and DESQA have NOT been tested, but were working. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 26 14:40:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: FW: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home In-Reply-To: FW: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home (David Woyciesjes) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146744D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <15402.13771.225248.638879@phaduka.neurotica.com> *sigh*, this has to happen a month and a half after I move out of Laurel... :-( -Dave On December 26, David Woyciesjes wrote: > I'm sure someone here would want this... > > Subject: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:40:56 -0500 > From: Chuck McCrobie > Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms, comp.sys.dec > > As a testament to Digitial engineering, I have a VAX 3900 that's been > sitting in my garage for 3 1/2 years that just booted up! > > CONDITIONS: > > Machine must be picked up in its entirety - ALL OR NOTHING > Local pickup only - I don't want to ship this beast > > LOCATION: > > Laurel, MD 20724 > > You will need a large sedan, pickup, or similar vehicle. The external > frame has been modified to come apart, so loading it will be easy. > > PARTICULARS: > > VAX 3900 - CPU - (Big cabinet) KA655-AA (M7625-AA) > 32 MB RAM - MEMORY - MS650-BA (M7622-A) > DESQA-SA - Ethernet - (M3127-PA) > CXY08-M - 8 line Terminal controller - (M3119-YA) > USD 1108 QBUS->SCSI Controller - in passthrough mode > * This is a NON-DISCONNECTING controller - yes, I have the manual! > TQK70 - tape controller - (M7559-00) > * DRIVE IS _BROKEN_ > KDA50 - disk controller - (M7164-00 & M7165-00) > CMD 200 TM QBUS->SCSI Controller > * Yes, I have the manual > RA90 Drive (1.2GB) - Big and slow, but after 3 1/2 years idle time, > still works > TK70 - tape drive - BROKEN > > NOTES: > > The CMD 200 TM recognized a newer SCSI CD-ROM and booted VMS 7.1 install > kit. > > Machine currently boots VMS 5.5-2. > > CXY08 and DESQA have NOT been tested, but were working. > > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Dec 26 14:48:40 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: FW: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146744F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> If I was closer, it'd be mine... :-( --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] ! Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 3:41 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail); NetBSD/Vax Mail List (E-mail) ! Subject: Re: FW: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home ! ! ! ! *sigh*, this has to happen a month and a half after I move out of ! Laurel... :-( ! ! -Dave ! ! On December 26, David Woyciesjes wrote: ! > I'm sure someone here would want this... ! > ! > Subject: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home ! > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:40:56 -0500 ! > From: Chuck McCrobie ! > Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com ! > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms, comp.sys.dec ! > ! > As a testament to Digitial engineering, I have a VAX 3900 ! that's been ! > sitting in my garage for 3 1/2 years that just booted up! ! > ! > CONDITIONS: ! > ! > Machine must be picked up in its entirety - ALL OR NOTHING ! > Local pickup only - I don't want to ship this beast ! > ! > LOCATION: ! > ! > Laurel, MD 20724 ! > ! > You will need a large sedan, pickup, or similar vehicle. ! The external ! > frame has been modified to come apart, so loading it will be easy. ! > ! > PARTICULARS: ! > ! > VAX 3900 - CPU - (Big cabinet) KA655-AA (M7625-AA) ! > 32 MB RAM - MEMORY - MS650-BA (M7622-A) ! > DESQA-SA - Ethernet - (M3127-PA) ! > CXY08-M - 8 line Terminal controller - (M3119-YA) ! > USD 1108 QBUS->SCSI Controller - in passthrough mode ! > * This is a NON-DISCONNECTING controller - yes, I ! have the manual! ! > TQK70 - tape controller - (M7559-00) ! > * DRIVE IS _BROKEN_ ! > KDA50 - disk controller - (M7164-00 & M7165-00) ! > CMD 200 TM QBUS->SCSI Controller ! > * Yes, I have the manual ! > RA90 Drive (1.2GB) - Big and slow, but after 3 1/2 years idle time, ! > still works ! > TK70 - tape drive - BROKEN ! > ! > NOTES: ! > ! > The CMD 200 TM recognized a newer SCSI CD-ROM and booted ! VMS 7.1 install ! > kit. ! > ! > Machine currently boots VMS 5.5-2. ! > ! > CXY08 and DESQA have NOT been tested, but were working. ! > ! > ! > --- David A Woyciesjes ! > --- C & IS Support Specialist ! > --- Yale University Press ! > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! > --- (203) 432-0953 ! > --- ICQ # - 905818 ! > ! ! -- ! Dave McGuire ! St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf ! From linc at thelinuxlink.net Wed Dec 26 15:34:52 2001 From: linc at thelinuxlink.net (Linc Fessenden) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: FW: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146744F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > If I was closer, it'd be mine... :-( > > --- David A Woyciesjes I replied to this off the classiccomp list around 10:30 this morning. Hopefully I'll get it :-) -Linc Fessenden In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... From wonko at arkham.ws Wed Dec 26 18:37:48 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: FW: VAX 3900 Free to Good Home In-Reply-To: ; from linc@thelinuxlink.net on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 04:34:52PM -0500 References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146744F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011226193748.A1538@wintermute.arkham.ws> > > If I was closer, it'd be mine... :-( > > I replied to this off the classiccomp list around 10:30 this > morning. Hopefully I'll get it :-) if you need help getting it let me know, i need to make a run down to laurel sometime in the next couple of months, i could maybe be convinced to go earlier than later, but then you will get recruited into helping *ME* move stuff. and as we all know i'm sure, my stuff is all *HUGE* :) -brian From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Wed Dec 26 16:07:55 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Apple II serial number 2000? References: <000f01c18cad$e3680340$9865fea9@downstairs> <3C280DB4.76895A0A@mail.verizon.net> <000d01c18d16$dc2bf5f0$9865fea9@downstairs> Message-ID: <3C2A4A3B.1209B6F7@mail.verizon.net> Thanks for the info, Mike. The Computer Land in Virginia didn't open until the Apple II came out, late 1977 or early 1978 as I recall. In fact, it was the Apple II that made Computer Land in the area. One doesn't think of Washington DC as a technology haven of any sort. But between Rockville, MD and Springfield, VA there was a little piece of Silicon Valley and I do recall MITS being there as well a the shop in Rockville, called the Computer Workshop that sold me my SWTPC 6800. They also, sold, Vector Graphics, IMSAIs, and Polymorphics systems. Eric Michael Holley wrote: > These were the first two assembled units. Chet Harris went down the Apple > factory in Cupertino to pick them up. He had some kind of business > relationship with Mike Markala. He got Mike Markala to come to his store to > demo the Apple II computers. I sat at a table with him for several hours > demonstrating the Apple II. > > We had Apple II boards for several week before that. Apple had difficulty > with the plastic case. I think they were flying the tooling back and forth > from Los Angles to San Jose. The factory was in one place and the tool > designer was in the other. I don't think the first cases had the vent holes > in the side. > > Computer Land was call Computer Shack before Radio Shack got on them. The > store in San Leandro was open before the Apple II came out. In the January > 1977 Byte magazine there is an ad for Computer Shack. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Chomko" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 9:25 PM > Subject: Re: Apple II serial number 2000? > > > > > > > Michael Holley wrote: > > > > > The Apple II computers started at serial number #1. When I was going to > the > > > College of San Mateo in 1976 and 1977 I worked at a local computer > store, > > > Allied Computer, run by Chet Harris. The owner was trying to set up a > chain > > > like the Byte Shops and Computer Land. I got to meet some interesting > people > > > then, like a field trip to Bill Godbout's where we met Bill and George > > > Morrow. > > > > > > > I.m pretty sure I sold the first Apple II computer in Virginia before > > Computerland ever existed. > > It was a demo. I suspect that if it wasn't a single digit SN, then it was > a low > > two digit SN. > > > > I worked for a company called 'The Computer Systems Store' in McLean, VA. > We > > sold Commodore PETs and SOL 20s, 1976-1978. Computerland put us out of > buisness. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chet had tried to interest Mike Markala in investing in his enterprise > but > > > Mr. Markala was going with Apple. Allied Computer was a distributor for > > > Apple and we sold Apple II main boards before the plastic case was > ready. > > > (It took several design iterations before the injection molds worked > > > correctly.) > > > > > > One Saturday Chet came in with the first two Apple II computers built, > > > Serial number 1 and 2. He sold #1 to a friend of his and I took #2 home > with > > > me. I hooked it up to our color TV and loaded various games. I showed > the > > > system to friends for a week or so until the power supply died. It went > back > > > to Apple and I never saw it again. > > > > > > One of the customers at Allied Computer was Bill Kelly. He was working > for > > > Regis McKenna Advertising on the Apple II introduction. He has a web > page > > > that talks about the early days at Apple Computer. > > > > > > http://www.kelleyad.com/Histry.htm > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > Michael Holley > > > www.swtpc.com > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > > > From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 26 16:50:27 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Old issues of MacWeek Message-ID: Does anyone have old issues of MacWeek they'd like to get rid of? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 26 17:17:54 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Anti-Static Foil? Message-ID: Hi. I think I've made a trade for a CPU, memory, and a graphics board for the ex-MVII in the garage. The guy daid that he doesn't have anti-static bags to ship the boards in, and asked if I thought wrapping them in aluminum foil would do. Any suggestions? Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 26 17:46:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Anti-Static Foil? In-Reply-To: from "Doc Shipley" at Dec 26, 1 05:17:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 570 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011226/68960a0d/attachment.ksh From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Wed Dec 26 17:54:47 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Anti-Static Foil? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1009410888.25336.0.camel@silke> It will do. Wrap it in aluminium foil, and than use that bubble-foil-stuff or whatever it is called. (We call it "Californian Air" here in Germany. Funny, eh?) Trust me, i've studied Physics, loooong time ago 8-) ms On Thu, 2001-12-27 at 00:17, Doc Shipley wrote: > Hi. > I think I've made a trade for a CPU, memory, and a graphics board for > the ex-MVII in the garage. The guy daid that he doesn't have anti-static > bags to ship the boards in, and asked if I thought wrapping them in > aluminum foil would do. > Any suggestions? > > Doc > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Dec 26 18:05:51 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Anti-Static Foil? In-Reply-To: from "Doc Shipley" at Dec 26, 01 05:17:54 pm Message-ID: <200112270005.TAA18808@wordstock.com> Doc, At an electronic surplus store I used to frequent, you would get the ICs stuck in a piece of styrofoam that was wrapped with foil. Bryan > > Hi. > I think I've made a trade for a CPU, memory, and a graphics board for > the ex-MVII in the garage. The guy daid that he doesn't have anti-static > bags to ship the boards in, and asked if I thought wrapping them in > aluminum foil would do. > Any suggestions? > > Doc > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Dec 26 18:25:41 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: Anti-Static Foil? Message-ID: <200112261925.AA2246115814@kih.net> I do it all of the time, works fine. Stuff with onboard batteries it might hurt though if the battery is left in, so I put a sheet of thin cardboard across the bottom on the board (solder side) ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Doc Shipley Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:17:54 -0600 (CST) >Hi. > I think I've made a trade for a CPU, memory, and a graphics board for >the ex-MVII in the garage. The guy daid that he doesn't have anti-static >bags to ship the boards in, and asked if I thought wrapping them in >aluminum foil would do. > Any suggestions? > > Doc > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 26 18:16:54 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: DS5000/1xx & VS4000/60 memory specs Message-ID: I'm looking for detailed module specs for the vaxstation 4000, and probably for the decstation 5000/1xx. I have a pile of 32M modules that my supplier thought work in a vs4k, but they don't. While I can't find any references to the labeling, y'alls' best guess seems to be that they are ram for a decstation 5000/1xx. I'd like to find out if the difference is something that can be modified, to make them compatible with the VAX. Failing that, if I can verify that they really are DS modules, I can sell them. The SIMMs themselves are from several different lots, but the common label, which looks like a DEC/Compaq P/N to me, is 33522947-001. Lastly, what's a 32M SIMM worth? I've got a little over $25 each in these. If they're worth that, I'll convert or sell them, if not I'll return them as misrepresented. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 26 18:29:54 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: DS5000/1xx & VS4000/60 memory specs In-Reply-To: from "Doc Shipley" at Dec 26, 2001 06:16:54 PM Message-ID: <200112270029.fBR0TsX07559@shell1.aracnet.com> > Lastly, what's a 32M SIMM worth? I've got a little over $25 each in > these. If they're worth that, I'll convert or sell them, if not I'll > return them as misrepresented. My guess is that if they were actually VS4000 SIMMs, they'd easily be worth $25. However, as DS5000 SIMMs, my guess is they're virtually worthless. I might be way off here, this is basically my personal opinion. I'd say return them. Zane From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 26 18:47:35 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:47 2005 Subject: DS5000/1xx & VS4000/60 memory specs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm looking for detailed module specs for the vaxstation 4000, and > probably for the decstation 5000/1xx. > I have a pile of 32M modules that my supplier thought work in a vs4k, > but they don't. While I can't find any references to the labeling, > y'alls' best guess seems to be that they are ram for a decstation > 5000/1xx. I'd like to find out if the difference is something that can > be modified, to make them compatible with the VAX. Failing that, if I > can verify that they really are DS modules, I can sell them. > The SIMMs themselves are from several different lots, but the > common label, which looks like a DEC/Compaq P/N to me, is 33522947-001. > Lastly, what's a 32M SIMM worth? I've got a little over $25 each in > these. If they're worth that, I'll convert or sell them, if not I'll > return them as misrepresented. > > Doc > > > Dont know about the VS4000 but DS5000/1xx/xx modules only come in two sizes, 2M and 8M. DS5000/2XX modules come in 32M size but they are not SIMMS (they are large and have .1" female headers) Peter Wallace From allain at panix.com Wed Dec 26 20:39:42 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: UnCursing the Darkness. References: <3C2A21D2.16907.31689C38@localhost> Message-ID: <000f01c18e7f$bd7f1e60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> It's a week after the solstice. It's dark. Light candles. Pack-Rat tip: I got some of those Christmas exterior 'rope lights'. They have 360 small bulbs in a 30' armored plastic tube. Seems a cheap alternative for lighting your storage space. Question...: I recently bought 2 each of all the white LED's that Jameco sells. While *white*s are OT, they are nonetheless impressive. The light density, efficiency, color, and longevity they have is pretty amazing, to me anyway. Jameco rated them at 4 foot candles at 20ma, which seemed a little 'opto'mistic. I tried them out, and they reach near peak light at more like 180ma, getting just noticeaby warm. At 250ma they are 'uncomfortably' warm, hence question: Did they really mean 20ma? at that proportion they're putting out <10% peak, but 180ma is WAY above spec, Jameco's spec anyway. So I guess Jameco's wrong? Could I be loosing lifespan at this current? Maybe the not-too-warm test is good enough? John A. remember, I'm a software guy. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 26 21:15:28 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: UnCursing the Darkness. In-Reply-To: <000f01c18e7f$bd7f1e60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, John Allain wrote: > pretty amazing, to me anyway. Jameco rated them at 4 foot > candles at 20ma, which seemed a little 'opto'mistic. > I tried them out, and they reach near peak light at more like > 180ma, getting just noticeaby warm. At 250ma they are > 'uncomfortably' warm, hence question: > Did they really mean 20ma? at that proportion they're > putting out <10% peak, but 180ma is WAY above spec, > Jameco's spec anyway. So I guess Jameco's wrong? > Could I be loosing lifespan at this current? Maybe the > not-too-warm test is good enough? Totally untutored guess: A "noticably warm" bulb is fairly likely to shatter when a glob of snow falls on it. > John A. > remember, I'm a software guy. Doc Remember, I'm a roughneck. :) From vcf at vintage.org Wed Dec 26 22:29:29 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? Message-ID: This may be a dumb question but... Will RSTS/E (specifically) RSTS/E-V7.0/07 run on a PDP 11/34? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 26 22:40:33 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Dec 26, 2001 08:29:29 PM Message-ID: <200112270440.fBR4eXO18445@shell1.aracnet.com> > This may be a dumb question but... > > Will RSTS/E (specifically) RSTS/E-V7.0/07 run on a PDP 11/34? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival I think the real question would be, are the devices on that specific /34 supported by that version of RSTS/E. Zane From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 26 23:13:38 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: <20011226201358.88359.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I can *not* find this again, even after an hour of Googling, Altavista-ing > and Freshmeating. Anybody else remember this? Got any URLs? > > It would be a blast to watch the needle peg when, say, you fired up > a CPU pig of a game or were digesting /usr/spool/news or some such. > It would be less interesting on a system running, say, Seti-At-Home > where the load is more-or-less constant. Here ya go: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/status/led-stat.txt ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/status/ledstatus-0.1.tgz -Toth From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Wed Dec 26 23:15:33 2001 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) References: <001f01c18e8e$40167b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001101c18e95$83021e70$9865fea9@downstairs> I worked at Data I/O (the PROM programmer company) and was involved in programmable logic from 1981 to 1997. What MMI brought to the designer was an easy to use complete system. A simple part, design tools, programmer support, and lots of documentation. I think the PAL handbook was one of the keys to their success. (John Birkner would agree.) The PALASM software came with a simple simulator. You could test your logic before you programmed a $25 part. The people at Signetics felt that if a designer could not understand their parts they were too stupid to be a customer. Instead of Boolean equations you had to enter an H&L bitmap. They went for 100% market share in 1978 to %10 by the mid 1980s. (The Signetics FPLA, 82S100, came out in 1975.) ------------------------- Michael Holley www.swtpc.com ------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Erlacher" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 8:23 PM Subject: Re: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) > It's not entirely clear what's meant here, but if he means that the MMI > 16-X/R/L/whatever series is all that he's including among his definition then > it's likely he's right. The notion that the process for generating MMI PALs was > any simpler than for other mfg's devices, he's reciting the party line and > nothing resembling the truth, as PALs also require logic equations and > programmers, software, etc, dedicated to the task. > > FPLA's were later thought-of as SUPER-PALs, since they had both programmable AND > arrays and programmable OR arrays. This was probably too much for some > designers, but not for all of them. As I said, it reflects the party line more > than reality. That was his job. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 10:35 AM > Subject: PAL introduction (was MITS 2SIO serial chip) > > > > > > The PAL was introduced in 1978, Other types of programmable logic devices > > were available earlier, (FPLA's for example) > > > > Here is a quote from one of the PAL's inventors (Andy Chan -- now at > > QuickLogic) > > > > "MMI's PAL was designed to overcome the problems associated with FPLA that > > made it difficult for end users. A proprietary programmer was necessary > > and a cumbersome inputting process (creating the design in Boolean > > equations, translating them into a bitmap and typing that into a machine > > that generated a paper tape for the programmer to read) meant that if the > > design didn't work, it was impossible to know at what step something went > > awry. Our PAL was faster and used less power, but the main improvement > > was in its ease of use, Chan said, noting that the first PAL chip was > > introduced in 1978." > > > > > > > > PCW > > > > > > > > > > From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Dec 26 19:15:30 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers Message-ID: <3C2A21D2.16907.31689C38@localhost> A local general purpose mechanic who mainly works on Ski-doos in the winter and pumps and everything else in the summer gave me a complete Adam (!) collecting dust on the shelf, when I told him I collect computers. He mentioned he could use an old box to keep track of his parts inventory if I had any spares. I volunteered to supply him with something that would serve simple needs thinking of everything from a C-64 to an A2 or an XT to a 386 and that there must be 100s of programs that would be available. And no I don't want to configure a Database program. I did a Google search and found only the newest Gee-Whiz Winblows 9x, 2k, XP, and OSX programs, and while I haven't searched Simtel, out of frustration I've decided to defer to the list about older programs to track inventory and if it also has billing and labour, so much the better. Any suggestions would be appreciated. It would serve as an example that older machines don't have to be delegated to land-fills. This area is in north- central Manitoba,Canada and not exactly a hotbed of technology. The temperature at present is -20 C, but the air is breathable. Lawrence Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Dec 26 20:08:27 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers Message-ID: <92.1efc3e02.295bdc9b@aol.com> In a message dated 12/26/01 8:23:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, lgwalker@mts.net writes: << A local general purpose mechanic who mainly works on Ski-doos in the winter and pumps and everything else in the summer gave me a complete Adam (!) collecting dust on the shelf, when I told him I collect computers. He mentioned he could use an old box to keep track of his parts inventory if I had any spares. I volunteered to supply him with something that would serve simple needs thinking of everything from a C-64 to an A2 or an XT to a 386 and that there must be 100s of programs that would be available. And no I don't want to configure a Database program. I did a Google search and found only the newest Gee-Whiz Winblows 9x, 2k, XP, and OSX programs, and while I haven't searched Simtel, out of frustration I've decided to defer to the list about older programs to track inventory and if it also has billing and labour, so much the better. Any suggestions would be appreciated. It would serve as an example that older machines don't have to be delegated to land-fills. This area is in north- central Manitoba,Canada and not exactly a hotbed of technology. The temperature at present is -20 C, but the air is breathable. >> I do have an inventory prorgam with pretty modest system requirements, but pretty much seems to be designed for home inventory and such. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 26 20:31:10 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers In-Reply-To: <3C2A21D2.16907.31689C38@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote: > I did a Google search and found only the newest Gee-Whiz Winblows 9x, > 2k, XP, and OSX programs, and while I haven't searched Simtel, out of > frustration I've decided to defer to the list about older programs to track > inventory and if it also has billing and labour, so much the better. Try this on for size: http://www.accsoft-ch.com/apdos.htm A rarity. An MS-based software developer that realizes releasing their old stuff helps sell their new stuff.... Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Dec 26 09:27:06 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Power Series Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E01B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > The video really was nice for its day, but a lack of texture memory > somewhat limits it for today's graphics intensive software. Well, on one hand, yes, but on the other hand, I like my Indigo 2 Elan with no texture memory just fine. I'm also considering trying to dig up a reality engine for the thing, at which point it would have texture memory. > What color is the wrap-around part on the front/top of the > machine? The > standard colors that I'm familiar with are; blue for a VGX, > red for a GTX, > and green for GT. It's blue. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 23:51:39 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: UnCursing the Darkness. In-Reply-To: <000f01c18e7f$bd7f1e60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20011227055139.24883.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> See Below: --- John Allain wrote: > It's a week after the solstice. It's dark. Light > candles. > > Pack-Rat tip: > I got some of those Christmas exterior 'rope > lights'. They have > 360 small bulbs in a 30' armored plastic tube. > Seems a cheap > alternative for lighting your storage space. > > Question...: > I recently bought 2 each of all the white LED's that > Jameco > sells. While *white*s are OT, they are nonetheless > impressive. > The light density, efficiency, color, and longevity > they have is > pretty amazing, to me anyway. Jameco rated them at > 4 foot > candles at 20ma, which seemed a little 'opto'mistic. > I tried them out, and they reach near peak light at > more like > 180ma, getting just noticeaby warm. At 250ma they > are > 'uncomfortably' warm, hence question: > Did they really mean 20ma? at that proportion > they're > putting out <10% peak, but 180ma is WAY above > spec, > Jameco's spec anyway. So I guess Jameco's wrong? > Could I be loosing lifespan at this current? > Maybe the > not-too-warm test is good enough? > > John A. > remember, I'm a software guy. > I think the way these are made, they are blue LED's with a phosphor coating (on the die). I got one jacked up to the point where it got _very_ warm and started to turn blue. After cooling, it seemed to work normally, and I don't want to do any extensive experimentation at $3 a pop. I have read that these don't have the life expectancy of a "pure" LED because the phosphor will wear out (?) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 27 00:08:46 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Power Series In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E01B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > > > The video really was nice for its day, but a lack of texture memory > > somewhat limits it for today's graphics intensive software. > > Well, on one hand, yes, but on the other hand, I like my Indigo 2 Elan with > no texture memory just fine. I'm also considering trying to dig up a > reality engine for the thing, at which point it would have texture memory. I didn't know you had another SGI box ;) A couple people I've known who ended up with old SGI gear thought they were going to create some kind of fancy animations with this kind of hardware, so I never know what to think now. > > What color is the wrap-around part on the front/top of the > > machine? The > > standard colors that I'm familiar with are; blue for a VGX, > > red for a GTX, > > and green for GT. > > It's blue. Sounds like you at least have an original VGX chassis then. It is possible someone upgraded some of the boards, but the only way you'll be able to tell is to pull them and cross reference the part numbers. -Toth From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 27 03:22:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? In-Reply-To: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? (Vintage Computer Festival) References: Message-ID: <15402.59491.45636.218842@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 26, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > This may be a dumb question but... > > Will RSTS/E (specifically) RSTS/E-V7.0/07 run on a PDP 11/34? Dunno if this will be useful, but I ran RSTS/E v9.4 on a PDP11/34a for a long time.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 27 09:54:25 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Power Series Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E02F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Well, on one hand, yes, but on the other hand, I like my > Indigo 2 Elan with > > no texture memory just fine. I'm also considering trying > I didn't know you had another SGI box ;) Yep. > A couple people I've known who ended up with old SGI gear thought they > were going to create some kind of fancy animations with this kind of > hardware, so I never know what to think now. Depends on what you mean by "fancy animations." It will probably do better out of the box than most new peesees depending on what you'd like to animate. (and whether it requires texture memory, of course) Both of my SGIs, for instance, have analog video in/out, which is a start. On the other hand, you can't really do a good animation with anything "out of the box." It usually takes a lot of strange stuff. The graphical prowess of the machines is still something, though. For instance, the ability of the machine to provide individual color-maps for different windows on the screen, without the nasty palette-flashing that's seen in xfree86 on an intel box (for example) when you try the same... > Sounds like you at least have an original VGX chassis then. > It is possible > someone upgraded some of the boards, but the only way you'll > be able to > tell is to pull them and cross reference the part numbers. I'm thinking about doing that. The label on top of the chassis actually says "4D/440 VGX" or something to that effect. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Dec 27 10:24:14 2001 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Power Series In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E02F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from Christopher Smith at "Dec 27, 2001 09:54:25 am" Message-ID: <20011227162417Z658442-695+594@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > > > On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > > Well, on one hand, yes, but on the other hand, I like my > > Indigo 2 Elan with > > > no texture memory just fine. I'm also considering trying > > > I didn't know you had another SGI box ;) > > Yep. > > > A couple people I've known who ended up with old SGI gear thought they > > were going to create some kind of fancy animations with this kind of > > hardware, so I never know what to think now. > > Depends on what you mean by "fancy animations." It will probably do better > out of the box than most new peesees depending on what you'd like to > animate. (and whether it requires texture memory, of course) Both of my > SGIs, for instance, have analog video in/out, which is a start. On the > other hand, you can't really do a good animation with anything "out of the > box." It usually takes a lot of strange stuff. > What it really takes is software. Most computer animation is a batch process, you run a renderer for hours, days, months, etc. I run two rendering farms at work, neither of which have a single graphics card on them. All the texture mapping and similar visual effects is done in software, no need for graphics hardware. Back on topic, the early versions of Alias and SoftImage (mid 1980s) ran on SGI workstations, long before they had texture mapping hardware. Pretty much any 4D series machine would run these package, though maybe not very quickly. The VGX was the first SGI workstation to do texture mapping in hardware. The texture mapping implementation in the VGX was incorrect and was fixed in the VGXT. Neither were particularly fast at texture mapping, the RE was the first SGI that did a significant amount of texturing in real time. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 10:28:43 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011227162843.79636.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I can *not* find this again, even after an hour of Googling, > > Altavista-ing and Freshmeating. Anybody else remember this? > > > > It would be a blast to watch the needle peg... > > Here ya go: > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/status/led-stat.txt > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/status/ledstatus-0.1.tgz I found that. More than once. That's for an LED bargraph. I'm looking for a circuit that operates an old-fashioned galvanometer- style panel meter with a needle that swings from side-to-side. I can invent my own - a simple ladder D-to-A to produce a variable voltage out of the parallel port. I was hoping to save the math and use resistor values that someone else has calculated, but after two days of searching, I guess I _will_ have to go do it myself. Somewhere in my junk boxes, I have some .5" tall by 1.5" wide signal meters that I think I pulled from a dead CB radio, c. 1978 (pre-40- channel). The plane of the needle swing is parallel to the floor, and the needle has a 90-degree bend at the end, so you see a .2" tall vertical line slide from left to right as the signal improves. If I can find it, it'll mount perfectly in a 3.5" blank faceplace. Now to excavate the old parts! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Dec 27 10:59:56 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: <20011227162843.79636.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Dec 27, 01 08:28:43 am Message-ID: <200112271659.LAA01757@wordstock.com> > > I found that. More than once. That's for an LED bargraph. I'm > looking for a circuit that operates an old-fashioned galvanometer- > style panel meter with a needle that swings from side-to-side. > > I can invent my own - a simple ladder D-to-A to produce a variable > voltage out of the parallel port. I was hoping to save the math > and use resistor values that someone else has calculated, but after > two days of searching, I guess I _will_ have to go do it myself. > What about this: http://www.xess.com/ho03000.html I can't look at it to verify right now (using Lynx @ work and no PDF viewer) The one I think you would want is the VGA driver. I believe it uses the TTL output of a FPGA to four resistors to output an analog signal. Bryan From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 11:31:07 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: <200112271659.LAA01757@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20011227173107.1737.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > > I can invent my own - a simple ladder D-to-A to produce a variable > > voltage out of the parallel port.... > > What about this: http://www.xess.com/ho03000.html > > I can't look at it to verify right now (using Lynx @ work and no PDF > viewer) The one I think you would want is the VGA driver. I believe it > uses the TTL output of a FPGA to four resistors to output an analog > signal. There are a couple of schematics in the pdf - one is a simple 2-bit scheme with 470 ohm and 1K resistors - 6 bits of color resolution total. The other schematics just show a digital bus for the colors going off- page, presumably to a RAMDAC or some such. Thanks, but not quite. So far, the best candidate is the replica BeBox load meter circuit - 4-bits each on two bargraphs, but the bargraphs feed off of a pair of LM3914 comparators. The 4-bit ladder network there is 1K, 2.2K, 4.7K and 10K - roughly double at each stage. I do have a Disney Sound Source around here somewhere - it was a similar device, except it has an RCA jack off the end, for attachment to an amplifier. Certain games ("Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2" comes to mind) came with one in the box in case you didn't have a sound card (back in the i386 days). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From LFessen106 at aol.com Thu Dec 27 10:56:45 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters Message-ID: <80.155e3bef.295caccd@aol.com> In a message dated 12/27/01 11:35:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, erd_6502@yahoo.com writes: > I found that. More than once. That's for an LED bargraph. I'm > looking for a circuit that operates an old-fashioned galvanometer- > style panel meter with a needle that swings from side-to-side. > > I can invent my own - a simple ladder D-to-A to produce a variable > voltage out of the parallel port. I was hoping to save the math > and use resistor values that someone else has calculated, but after > two days of searching, I guess I _will_ have to go do it myself. > > Somewhere in my junk boxes, I have some .5" tall by 1.5" wide signal > meters that I think I pulled from a dead CB radio, c. 1978 (pre-40- > channel). The plane of the needle swing is parallel to the floor, > and the needle has a 90-degree bend at the end, so you see a .2" > tall vertical line slide from left to right as the signal improves. > If I can find it, it'll mount perfectly in a 3.5" blank faceplace. > > Now to excavate the old parts! > > -ethan > > Well, please let us know if and how you get this working. I would love to have something like this as well! -Linc. In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011227/a3cb377e/attachment.html From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 09:03:42 2001 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (lee courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question Message-ID: <20011227150342.26009.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, The thread on cleaning cards by running them through the dishwasher was timely as I am resurrecting an HP3000/XE. The system came from Pacific Pipe in Oakland and is the *filthest* system I have ever seen. The "computer room" on the second floor was left open to the work yard and all matter of dirt, dust, grime etc was sucked into the CPU, disc drive and tape. The CPU boards literally had a layer of grime covering them. Of course since this was an HP box it booted right up even though it was basically "clogged". Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just gently hand rinse? THanks! Lee Courtney __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Thu Dec 27 09:47:18 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question Message-ID: > >Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating >part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving >these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just >gently hand rinse? THanks! > I'd think ANY cleaning would put them at risk. If you don't want to loose the information, better document it somewhere. SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 27 10:07:56 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question References: Message-ID: <3C2B475C.52195967@jetnet.ab.ca> Steve Robertson wrote: > > > > >Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating > >part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving > >these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just > >gently hand rinse? THanks! > > > > I'd think ANY cleaning would put them at risk. If you don't want to loose > the information, better document it somewhere. What about Caned Air? Before and after shots would be handy if you got a camera. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu Dec 27 10:50:24 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question In-Reply-To: <20011227150342.26009.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011227104742.029feac8@127.0.0.1> Write down a description of where each of the labels are located on the board, and carefully remove those labels for re-attachment after cleaning. This is what I do to preserve labels. Usually the label adhesive on older products is shot anyway - and the labels need to be attached again after just minimal handling. - Matt At 07:03 AM 12/27/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Hi all, > >The thread on cleaning cards by running them through >the dishwasher was timely as I am resurrecting an >HP3000/XE. The system came from Pacific Pipe in >Oakland and is the *filthest* system I have ever seen. >The "computer room" on the second floor was left open >to the work yard and all matter of dirt, dust, grime >etc was sucked into the CPU, disc drive and tape. The >CPU boards literally had a layer of grime covering >them. > >Of course since this was an HP box it booted right up >even though it was basically "clogged". > >Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating >part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving >these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just >gently hand rinse? THanks! > >Lee Courtney > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From jrice at texoma.net Thu Dec 27 08:18:46 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Image 625x425 pixels Message-ID: <3C2B2DC6.9050808@texoma.net> http://www.switkin.com/software/geeklights/schem1.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: schem1.gif Type: image/gif Size: 9274 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011227/74a94a68/schem1.gif From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 10:09:44 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Image 625x425 pixels In-Reply-To: <3C2B2DC6.9050808@texoma.net> Message-ID: <20011227160944.94560.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- "James L. Rice" wrote: > > http://www.switkin.com/software/geeklights/schem1.gif > Thank you. I couldn't find a link on the site. Looks like a standard ladder D-to-A and a standard comparator bargraph (built one once from a Heathkit surface mount course). I'm a little concerned about the bottom of the schematic - it looks like you are supposed to run -5V to ground! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Thu Dec 27 09:58:06 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: UnCursing the Darkness. References: <20011227055139.24883.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003901c18eef$46446560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I got one jacked up to the point where it got > _very_ warm and started to turn blue. Thanks. My criteria for noticeably warm and uncomfortably warm (for an LED) was about <5degF and <20degF respectively. I know you can get more, heat, but that always seemed to not be the thing to do with LED's. > I have read that these don't have the life > expectancy of a "pure" LED because > the phosphor will wear out (?) The specs don't seem to balance.. the 4cd doesn't come at 20ma. It's like 4cd/5degF at 180ma, 5cd/20degF@250ma, 0.5cd/+0degF@20ma. So, less light, or more current? John A. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 27 05:54:16 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: UnCursing the Darkness. In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "UnCursing the Darkness." (Dec 26, 21:39) References: <3C2A21D2.16907.31689C38@localhost> <000f01c18e7f$bd7f1e60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <10112271154.ZM5942@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 26, 21:39, John Allain wrote: > I recently bought 2 each of all the white LED's that Jameco > sells. While *white*s are OT, they are nonetheless impressive. > The light density, efficiency, color, and longevity they have is > pretty amazing, to me anyway. Jameco rated them at 4 foot > candles at 20ma, which seemed a little 'opto'mistic. > I tried them out, and they reach near peak light at more like > 180ma, getting just noticeaby warm. At 250ma they are > 'uncomfortably' warm, hence question: > Did they really mean 20ma? at that proportion they're > putting out <10% peak, but 180ma is WAY above spec, > Jameco's spec anyway. So I guess Jameco's wrong? > Could I be loosing lifespan at this current? Maybe the > not-too-warm test is good enough? I had a look in my Farnell catalogue. Most of the white LEDs they stock are rated between 400 and 5600 mcd (millicandelas) at between 20mA. 20mA seems to be a standard current to quote the light output at, for most LEDs, not just white. However, Farnell also give lots of other data, including the maximum rated forward current, and the highest for any of the white LEDs is 30mA (made by Infineon and Multicomp). I don't think you should let them get warm :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jamie at rbattison.freeserve.co.uk Thu Dec 27 03:37:48 2001 From: jamie at rbattison.freeserve.co.uk (jamie@rbattison.freeserve.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Will someone delete me from this email list please as the commands do not work!! Message-ID: <20011227093748.YUKI26370.fep08-svc.ttyl.com@localhost> I want to remove myself from this list as i no longer have an interest in this subject. The commands on the website do not work so can the list owner please remove or can someone give me some idea of how to do it. cheers _______________________________________________________________________ Never pay another Internet phone bill! Freeserve AnyTime, for all the Internet access you want, day and night, only ?12.99 per month. Sign-up at http://www.freeserve.com/time/anytime From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 27 03:29:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? In-Reply-To: <200112270440.fBR4eXO18445@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > This may be a dumb question but... > > > > Will RSTS/E (specifically) RSTS/E-V7.0/07 run on a PDP 11/34? > > I think the real question would be, are the devices on that specific > /34 supported by that version of RSTS/E. Ah ha. Ok, so then my next question is, if I had some version of RSTS/E, could I read files on disks from other versions? Are they basically interchangeable? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 27 09:41:44 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E02D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] > Ah ha. Ok, so then my next question is, if I had some > version of RSTS/E, > could I read files on disks from other versions? Are they basically > interchangeable? I think it uses FILES-11/ODS-1, which means that you can share disks among RSTS/E systems and RSX-11 systems. VMS will also read and write them if I'm not mistaken. At least it should read them. VMS uses ODS-2 natively, though. I also have the FILES-11/ODS-1 spec in electronic form. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 27 11:09:19 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E02D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > I think it uses FILES-11/ODS-1, which means that you can share disks > among RSTS/E systems and RSX-11 systems. VMS will also read and write > them if I'm not mistaken. At least it should read them. VMS uses > ODS-2 natively, though. Ok, cool. How can I get RSTS/E boot media? How do I find out what device my 11/34 will boot from? It has an RK05, RK05f and two 8" floppy drives. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 27 11:32:48 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E031@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] > Ok, cool. How can I get RSTS/E boot media? How do I find > out what device > my 11/34 will boot from? It has an RK05, RK05f and two 8" > floppy drives. I don't know. :) Let me know if you find any. I have an 11/75 that would love to run RSTS/E. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 27 05:36:31 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do?" (Dec 26, 18:18) References: <20011227021839.47722.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10112271136.ZM5927@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 26, 18:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Dec 26, 14:20, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > > > My first PDP-8 program is a memory test... > > > > Good idea. I meant to mention in my followup to Ethan, that the > > diagnostics are also available, at > > > > http://pdp-8.org/papertape/ > > Nice. Fortunately for me, I have several boxes of DEC diagnostic tapes > (nothing unusual, but I'll check my list against what you have) I don't deserve any credit for the tapes and docs online -- they're the fruits of serveral other people's labours :-) pdp8.org is Aaron Nabil's site, and David Gesswien provides the docs at www.pdp8.net > At the moment, I think I have an M865 that works and an M8650 that may > or may not work. If I'm forced to use 20mA, I guess I'll have to dig > up a genuine IBM 8-bit serial card and mod it to switch it to current > loop. You probably know you can use an M8650 in RS232 mode. If you don't have a BC01V cable wired for RS232, Doug Jones' site has an excellent diagram, and a useful document explaining how to set up the baud rate etc (BTW, the note about changing the capacitor value for baud rates other than 110 only applies to current-loop operation). How different is an M865? Is it only current-loop? http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/hard8e/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 10:22:26 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: M865/M8650 (was Re: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do?) In-Reply-To: <10112271136.ZM5927@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011227162226.26282.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 26, 18:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > I don't deserve any credit for the tapes and docs online -- they're the > fruits of serveral other people's labours :-) pdp8.org is Aaron Nabil's > site, and David Gesswien provides the docs at www.pdp8.net Sorry... I wasn't paying attention. Aaron and David have been most helpful to me over the years, directly and indirectly. I wouldn't want them to think that I was giving credit to someone else. Thanks guys! > > At the moment, I think I have an M865 that works and an M8650 that may > > or may not work. > > You probably know you can use an M8650 in RS232 mode. Yes. I made the comment because I'm more confident about the condition of the older board than the newer board. > How different is an M865? Is it only current-loop? It is different. There is no 40-pin BERG connector - it has a set of split lugs line a W-076 card and a 18" cable with a standard Mate-n-Lok connector as seen on KSR-33s and VT220s, etc. I do not recall if I have any docs on it, but except for the 20mA/EIA differences, I think it's substantially similar, logically, to the M8650. It's a console port, only, permanently set to 03/04. I forget if the M8650 is modifyable or not. -ethan > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/hard8e/ > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 27 05:36:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do?" (Dec 26, 18:21) References: <20011227022100.42686.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10112271136.ZM5931@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 26, 18:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > It's not cool like core, but did anyone ever come up with a modern > > > battery-backed-up SRAM board? > > > > Yes, I've got one. It even has a connector to link to an interface in a > > PC, so you can squirt (or suck) data in (or out) directly. > > That's a cool feature. You got docs? Is this commercial or homebrew? > How about a digital picture? 75dpi scan? It's a commercial 4-layer board. The legend says "Tellima Technology Ltd (C) 1995", "PC03753". It has a couple of surface-mount KM68100 SRAMs, but the most prominent features are the two Actel 1020 FPGAs. It also has 6 x 8837 and 3 x 8838 interface ICs, a pair of 74HCT244's, 2 x 74HCT160 and a 74HCT161, a MAX695, a 16MHz oscillator, a 3V 1/2AA lithium cell, a littl daughterboard with some inteface chips, and the 26-way header for the PC interface. The PC interface is a small 4-layer ISA card "PC03285-C", with a couple of Actel 1010's, a few small SMDs, 2 x 74HCT160 and a 74HCT161, and a 26-pin header on the backplate. Interestingly, it also has space for a 132-pin SMD device, several smaller SMDs, eight ZIP devices, and a couple of 8-pin miniDINs. I don't have a scanner, at least not one that works. Nor a digital camera, except my Indycams, which aren't exactly high resolution. I'll see what I can do... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 10:14:35 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: <10112271136.ZM5931@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011227161435.94938.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 26, 18:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > > It's not cool like core, but did anyone ever come up with a modern > > > > battery-backed-up SRAM board? > > > > > > Yes, I've got one... > > It's a commercial 4-layer board. The legend says "Tellima Technology Ltd > (C) 1995", "PC03753"... I had no idea people were making OMNIBUS boards in 1995. That's amazing. There are still machines in commercial use, but most of them are so deep inside something else that nobody knows how to upgrade them, let alone _want_ to change out the old for the new. I see they are a British company (http://www.tellima.co.uk) I guess that means that their products will be a wee bit less common on this side of the pond. -ethan It has a couple of surface-mount KM68100 SRAMs, > but > the most prominent features are the two Actel 1020 FPGAs. It also has 6 > x > 8837 and 3 x 8838 interface ICs, a pair of 74HCT244's, 2 x 74HCT160 and a > 74HCT161, a MAX695, a 16MHz oscillator, a 3V 1/2AA lithium cell, a littl > daughterboard with some inteface chips, and the 26-way header for the PC > interface. > > The PC interface is a small 4-layer ISA card "PC03285-C", with a couple > of > Actel 1010's, a few small SMDs, 2 x 74HCT160 and a 74HCT161, and a 26-pin > header on the backplate. Interestingly, it also has space for a 132-pin > SMD device, several smaller SMDs, eight ZIP devices, and a couple of > 8-pin > miniDINs. > > I don't have a scanner, at least not one that works. Nor a digital > camera, > except my Indycams, which aren't exactly high resolution. I'll see what > I > can do... > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Thu Dec 27 10:42:26 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: <20011227161435.94938.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The boards were made specially for a pharmaceutical company in England. They were using several PDP8E in a Kent processes control system. They began to experience problems with the core memory cards, and had these produced specially to extend the life of the system. Some more information is on http://www.ps8computing.co.uk/PDP8/ram_board.htm Kevin Murrell -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 27 December 2001 16:15 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 26, 18:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > > It's not cool like core, but did anyone ever come up with a modern > > > > battery-backed-up SRAM board? > > > > > > Yes, I've got one... > > It's a commercial 4-layer board. The legend says "Tellima Technology Ltd > (C) 1995", "PC03753"... I had no idea people were making OMNIBUS boards in 1995. That's amazing. There are still machines in commercial use, but most of them are so deep inside something else that nobody knows how to upgrade them, let alone _want_ to change out the old for the new. I see they are a British company (http://www.tellima.co.uk) I guess that means that their products will be a wee bit less common on this side of the pond. -ethan It has a couple of surface-mount KM68100 SRAMs, > but > the most prominent features are the two Actel 1020 FPGAs. It also has 6 > x > 8837 and 3 x 8838 interface ICs, a pair of 74HCT244's, 2 x 74HCT160 and a > 74HCT161, a MAX695, a 16MHz oscillator, a 3V 1/2AA lithium cell, a littl > daughterboard with some inteface chips, and the 26-way header for the PC > interface. > > The PC interface is a small 4-layer ISA card "PC03285-C", with a couple > of > Actel 1010's, a few small SMDs, 2 x 74HCT160 and a 74HCT161, and a 26-pin > header on the backplate. Interestingly, it also has space for a 132-pin > SMD device, several smaller SMDs, eight ZIP devices, and a couple of > 8-pin > miniDINs. > > I don't have a scanner, at least not one that works. Nor a digital > camera, > except my Indycams, which aren't exactly high resolution. I'll see what > I > can do... > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 11:43:04 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011227174304.78370.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Murrell wrote: > The boards were made specially for a pharmaceutical company in England. > They were using several PDP8E in a Kent processes control system. They > began to experience problems with the core memory cards, and had these > produced specially to extend the life of the system. That makes sense. *Somebody* paid a lot of money for them. It's gratifying to see Linux drivers for the PC side. > Some more information is on > http://www.ps8computing.co.uk/PDP8/ram_board.htm > > Kevin Murrell Nice page! I haven't seen this guy's stuff before. Makes me want to go out and start fixing my pair of Straight-8s (need *much* cleaning first - they used to run a typesetter at a newspaper). I wasn't envisioning a card _that_ fancy, but it'll do. I'd be happy with a simple, simple RAM card. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Dec 27 06:57:09 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers In-Reply-To: <3C2A21D2.16907.31689C38@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Dec 26, 01 07:15:30 pm Message-ID: <200112271257.HAA10157@wordstock.com> Lawrence, Check out http://www.ia4u.net/~maurice and click on "Software Ordering Information". There is a software package for the C64 called "Invoice Writer II" The programmer of this software is also an auto mechanic. Cheers, Bryan > > A local general purpose mechanic who mainly works on Ski-doos in the > winter and pumps and everything else in the summer gave me a complete > Adam (!) collecting dust on the shelf, when I told him I collect computers. He > mentioned he could use an old box to keep track of his parts inventory if I > had any spares. I volunteered to supply him with something that would serve > simple needs thinking of everything from a C-64 to an A2 or an XT to a 386 > and that there must be 100s of programs that would be available. And no I > don't want to configure a Database program. > I did a Google search and found only the newest Gee-Whiz Winblows 9x, > 2k, XP, and OSX programs, and while I haven't searched Simtel, out of > frustration I've decided to defer to the list about older programs to track > inventory and if it also has billing and labour, so much the better. > Any suggestions would be appreciated. It would serve as an example that > older machines don't have to be delegated to land-fills. This area is in north- > central Manitoba,Canada and not exactly a hotbed of technology. The > temperature at present is -20 C, but the air is breathable. > > Lawrence > > > > Lawrence > > Reply to: > lgwalker@mts.net > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Dec 26 20:07:06 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: After Xmas Sale 11/44 wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Okay, just bear with me. At one time I had Dec By The Ton. I had Systems >in every room of the house save the Loo, because I was afraid the steam >from the shower would hurt Things. And, in the Fulness of Time, I sold Ah, the true test of the DEC fanatic, willingness to take cold showers for life so systems could be located in EVERY room of the house. OTOH somebody must have made an industrial version with a sealed front panel. Perfect for toggling in a few lines of code while sitting. From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 27 12:55:39 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Intermittent(?) power-supply trouble Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E032@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi everybody. Still working on those MIPS RISComputers. I've gotten all three to power-up and self-test at least once. The one that's giving me problems came to me marked "bad power supply." Not being one to believe the markings, I tried it, and it powered up fine, did the whole self test, and (due to the lack of any disks) just set there, as you'd expect. So here's the deal. I powered it off, and then back on. The second time, it didn't seem to be getting any power at all -- not even fan-buzz. Would I be right to suspect a loose joint or the like? Is there anything else that might cause the power supply to work sporadically? What's the best way to attack this and get the power-supply fixed? Should I just dig out a multimeter and start checking connections? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Dec 27 13:20:55 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:48 2005 Subject: Intermittent(?) power-supply trouble References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E032@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <003a01c18f0b$9bfdd380$030101ac@boll.casema.net> If it is a switching PSU you'll propably need to load it in order to have it function properly. I always use an old defuncty HD for this purpose ..................... Chances are that if the load is not large enough it will shut itself down, while it may still be a OK PSU. Regards, Sipke de Wal -------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Smith To: Classiccmp (E-mail) Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 7:55 PM Subject: Intermittent(?) power-supply trouble > Hi everybody. > > Still working on those MIPS RISComputers. I've gotten all three to power-up > and self-test at least once. > > The one that's giving me problems came to me marked "bad power supply." Not > being one to believe the markings, I tried it, and it powered up fine, did > the whole self test, and (due to the lack of any disks) just set there, as > you'd expect. > > So here's the deal. I powered it off, and then back on. The second time, > it didn't seem to be getting any power at all -- not even fan-buzz. > > Would I be right to suspect a loose joint or the like? Is there anything > else that might cause the power supply to work sporadically? > > What's the best way to attack this and get the power-supply fixed? Should I > just dig out a multimeter and start checking connections? > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 27 13:52:05 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Intermittent(?) power-supply trouble Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E033@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sipke de Wal [mailto:sipke@wxs.nl] > If it is a switching PSU you'll propably need to load it > in order to have it function properly. I always use an old > defuncty HD for this purpose ..................... > Chances are that if the load is not large enough it will shut > itself down, while it may still be a OK PSU. I thought that may be the case too, but one of the working units is missing the tape drive (which this unit has...) and still functions properly. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Dec 27 15:26:10 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Intermittent(?) power-supply trouble In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E032@cmiexch1.cmi.itds .com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011227132519.049f1c50@mail.zipcon.net> At 12:55 PM 12/27/01 -0600, you wrote: >So here's the deal. I powered it off, and then back on. The second time, >it didn't seem to be getting any power at all -- not even fan-buzz. > >Would I be right to suspect a loose joint or the like? Is there anything >else that might cause the power supply to work sporadically? Best source for finding loose solder joints is to look at the board in question... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 27 17:24:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Intermittent(?) power-supply trouble In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E032@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Dec 27, 1 12:55:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011227/4a870288/attachment.ksh From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Dec 27 13:24:11 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:29:29 PST." Message-ID: <200112271924.TAA20202@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Sellam Ismail said: > This may be a dumb question but... > > Will RSTS/E (specifically) RSTS/E-V7.0/07 run on a PDP 11/34? > If it's any guide, I'm running V7.0/07 on Ersatz-11 _emulating_ a PDP11/34a (with emulated FP11A FP processor and 248K memory). Runs just fine. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Dec 27 14:23:54 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:32:48 CST." <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E031@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <200112272023.UAA21870@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Christopher Smith said: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] > > > Ok, cool. How can I get RSTS/E boot media? How do I find > > out what device > > my 11/34 will boot from? It has an RK05, RK05f and two 8" > > floppy drives. > > I don't know. :) Let me know if you find any. I have an 11/75 that would > love to run RSTS/E. If you could attach an 8-inch disk to a PC (or a 5 1/4 inch one to a PDP) it _should_ be possible to create a boot disk using Paul Koning's FLX utility, which allows a PC to read/write and create RSTS disks. I've not tried it myself. Sorry no url to hand, but a search would soon turn it up. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Dec 27 15:58:40 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: RSTS/E on a PDP 11/34? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E037@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Barr [mailto:stanb@dial.pipex.com] > If you could attach an 8-inch disk to a PC (or a 5 1/4 inch > one to a PDP) > it _should_ be possible to create a boot disk using Paul Koning's FLX > utility, which allows a PC to read/write and create RSTS disks. Actually, you can do either, and my PDP happens to have 5.25" disks in the first place. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rhudson at cnonline.net Thu Dec 27 13:29:22 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Apple Questions... Message-ID: <3C2B7692.1060007@cnonline.net> Can I somehow... A. Get Dos3.3 to run on 3.5 disk? or B. Get the renumber program from DOS 3.3 to run under Prodos? Thanks! From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 27 14:00:27 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Apple Questions... In-Reply-To: <3C2B7692.1060007@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Ron Hudson wrote: > Can I somehow... > > A. Get Dos3.3 to run on 3.5 disk? I'm sure it's been done. > B. Get the renumber program from DOS 3.3 to run under Prodos? I think there was a ProDOS version on the ProDOS system disk or something. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vaxman at earthlink.net Thu Dec 27 13:42:00 2001 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: <003101c18e8e$dbfbd860$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: I was sympathizing with the checkout chick at home-depot today... Can you imagine working someplace that plays christmas music 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, since mid November?!!!???! On the other hand (and to bring us slightly closer to topic), I got my 200Amp load center installed and wired up. Now I just need to get an inspection (ummmm.... Yup, thats a load center.... Your wire is the improper shade of red, you'll have to replace it all...), and get PSCo out to hook the feed wire up. Then I'll have an extra 80Amps to run VAXEN!!!!!! Clint On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Actually, the Christmas holiday traditionally is a 12-day period from Christmas > Day to Epiphany. Unfortunately, Americans seem to dislike it so much that they > compress it into a single day. To make up for it, they start the agonizing > period of promotional advertising in late September, nowadays. I, for one, > think it should be banned from print or electronic media until after noon on the > 22nd of December, so one doesn't tire of it all before the fact. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: Happy Holidays! > > > > > > > > > > > Happy Holidays! > > > > Holiday??? I've spent the last 2 days with soldering iron and logic > > analyser fixing HP plotters.... > > > > Of course I enjoy doing that, which is why I was doing it. But it's also > > what I do most of the other days in the year, so it's hardly a holiday ;-) > > > > Anyway, although it's a bit late, I hope all members of the list had a > > happy Newtonsday/Midwinder/Christmas (or whatever you decide to celebrate > > at this time of year). > > > > -tony > > > > > > From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu Dec 27 18:26:40 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! References: Message-ID: <00da01c18f36$54d2ed80$93469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 02:42 PM Subject: Re: Happy Holidays! > > I was sympathizing with the checkout chick at home-depot today... Can you > imagine working someplace that plays christmas music 24 hours a day, 7 > days a week, since mid November?!!!???! > > On the other hand (and to bring us slightly closer to topic), I got my > 200Amp load center installed and wired up. Now I just need to get an > inspection (ummmm.... Yup, thats a load center.... Your wire is the > improper shade of red, you'll have to replace it all...), and get PSCo > out to hook the feed wire up. Then I'll have an extra 80Amps to run > VAXEN!!!!!! Ahhh, we don't need no steekin' inspections. Around here the meter cans used to be supplied for free by the power company, and if you have a plug-in meter, there's no need to even bother them about it... Just pop the meter out, tear out the old stuff, stich in the new, and plug the meter back in. The meter maid will generally stick a new seal on it the next time they come around to read it. it's easy to tie it in yerself, too. Just remember to not touch two wires at once, and use a fiberglass (or wood-- uhg!) ladder. I did a service upgrade when we bought this place. The old service was basically 30A, and I have more load than that in VAXen alone! I called every week for three weeks prior to make sure the power company'd come out on the weekend to put the new meter in, including the sat. morning before I tore the old one off. I'm sure you can see where this is heading already! When I called for the new meter, the chick said `Oh, we don't do that on the weekend.' Boy, was I hot! Fortunantly, I had already popped the madisons in the meter socket, so we were on free power. After I mentioned that to her, she seemed to make a lot more effort to get the service guy out to put the meter in. ^_^ Ya know, that old lineman spent about ten minutes cutting off the mechanical butt splices I had installed and crimping on some hipress lugs. It took me 45 minutes to install them the first time! What I'd really like is a 20KVA UPS, like Brian's. That's big enough to run my whole house! > > Clint > Bob From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 27 15:23:54 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Powering ancient computers (was: Happy Holidays!) In-Reply-To: References: <003101c18e8e$dbfbd860$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011227160511.02558718@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Clint Wolff (VAX collector) may have mentioned these words: >I was sympathizing with the checkout chick at home-depot today... Can you >imagine working someplace that plays christmas music 24 hours a day, 7 >days a week, since mid November?!!!???! I really do think there should be a law (in the US) that no christmas decorations/music/advertising/etc. should be used until after Thanksgiving. In Canada, the law should read that non should be used until after the US's Thanksgiving. (Canadian Thanksgiving is in October.) I also think that it should be kept in mind that Native American people shouldn't be chastised for disliking Thanksgiving - remember, it was a "going away party" to the Europeans, they never left... ;-) [[ And yes, being primarily of Native American & German descent, I really wasn't sure which way to word the above paragraph... ;-) ]] >On the other hand (and to bring us slightly closer to topic), I got my >200Amp load center installed and wired up. Now I just need to get an >inspection (ummmm.... Yup, thats a load center.... Your wire is the >improper shade of red, you'll have to replace it all...), and get PSCo >out to hook the feed wire up. Then I'll have an extra 80Amps to run >VAXEN!!!!!! Pfffft. You call that an upgrade??? The house I'm buying has [ahem] 2 30-amp services - hell, that won't run my sawzall! And most of the wiring is the original "knob & tube" wiring that was used back when many parts of the US (and this house) ran on 50 Hz. [Yes, the town I live in ran on 50 Hz for around 20 years, before the US standardized on 60.] Needless to say, the very, *very* first job of mine is to install a new 200 Amp service & rewire the whole place... the better to run my computers with! (At least my Tandy 200 runs on batteries, so I won't be completely computerless... ;-) Happy incr(Year)! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? From at258 at osfn.org Thu Dec 27 15:45:05 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Powering ancient computers (was: Happy Holidays!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011227160511.02558718@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: When we first moved into our mill, some circuits with the original wooden insulator mounts were still in use. The main floor had exposed copper knob and tube 660 lines. There was even an enormous knife switch in the ceiling of the old generator room to convert from mill generated power to outside power. I think I liked it better that way. On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Clint Wolff (VAX collector) may have mentioned these words: > > >I was sympathizing with the checkout chick at home-depot today... Can you > >imagine working someplace that plays christmas music 24 hours a day, 7 > >days a week, since mid November?!!!???! > > I really do think there should be a law (in the US) that no christmas > decorations/music/advertising/etc. should be used until after Thanksgiving. > In Canada, the law should read that non should be used until after the US's > Thanksgiving. (Canadian Thanksgiving is in October.) > > I also think that it should be kept in mind that Native American people > shouldn't be chastised for disliking Thanksgiving - remember, it was a > "going away party" to the Europeans, they never left... ;-) > > [[ And yes, being primarily of Native American & German descent, I really > wasn't sure which way to word the above paragraph... ;-) ]] > > >On the other hand (and to bring us slightly closer to topic), I got my > >200Amp load center installed and wired up. Now I just need to get an > >inspection (ummmm.... Yup, thats a load center.... Your wire is the > >improper shade of red, you'll have to replace it all...), and get PSCo > >out to hook the feed wire up. Then I'll have an extra 80Amps to run > >VAXEN!!!!!! > > Pfffft. You call that an upgrade??? The house I'm buying has [ahem] 2 > 30-amp services - hell, that won't run my sawzall! And most of the wiring > is the original "knob & tube" wiring that was used back when many parts of > the US (and this house) ran on 50 Hz. [Yes, the town I live in ran on 50 Hz > for around 20 years, before the US standardized on 60.] > > Needless to say, the very, *very* first job of mine is to install a new 200 > Amp service & rewire the whole place... the better to run my computers > with! (At least my Tandy 200 runs on batteries, so I won't be completely > computerless... ;-) > > Happy incr(Year)! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. > > (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on > their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 16:22:45 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Powering ancient computers (was: Happy Holidays!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011227222245.41973.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > When we first moved into our mill, some circuits with the original wooden > insulator mounts were still in use. The main floor had exposed copper > knob and tube 660 lines. There was even an enormous knife switch in the > ceiling of the old generator room... That needs one my stickers that says: "Do Not Lick" -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From vance at ikickass.org Thu Dec 27 16:06:23 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Powering ancient computers (was: Happy Holidays!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011227160511.02558718@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Clint Wolff (VAX collector) may have mentioned these words: > > >I was sympathizing with the checkout chick at home-depot today... Can you > >imagine working someplace that plays christmas music 24 hours a day, 7 > >days a week, since mid November?!!!???! > > I really do think there should be a law (in the US) that no christmas > decorations/music/advertising/etc. should be used until after Thanksgiving. > In Canada, the law should read that non should be used until after the US's > Thanksgiving. (Canadian Thanksgiving is in October.) This leads to the Conservative Reactionary Right Nazi people to send the police out to force Hindus to take down Deewali lights in early November. Regulating anything *remotely* religious can cause *serious* unforseen problems. > I also think that it should be kept in mind that Native American people > shouldn't be chastised for disliking Thanksgiving - remember, it was a > "going away party" to the Europeans, they never left... ;-) > > [[ And yes, being primarily of Native American & German descent, I really > wasn't sure which way to word the above paragraph... ;-) ]] LOL. > >On the other hand (and to bring us slightly closer to topic), I got my > >200Amp load center installed and wired up. Now I just need to get an > >inspection (ummmm.... Yup, thats a load center.... Your wire is the > >improper shade of red, you'll have to replace it all...), and get PSCo > >out to hook the feed wire up. Then I'll have an extra 80Amps to run > >VAXEN!!!!!! > > Pfffft. You call that an upgrade??? The house I'm buying has [ahem] 2 > 30-amp services - hell, that won't run my sawzall! And most of the wiring > is the original "knob & tube" wiring that was used back when many parts of > the US (and this house) ran on 50 Hz. [Yes, the town I live in ran on 50 Hz > for around 20 years, before the US standardized on 60.] When I build my first house, I am going to have a 200 A service for the machine room, and a 200 A service for everything else. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 27 13:51:03 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Powering ancient computers (was: Happy Holidays!) References: Message-ID: <3C2B7BA7.2725D506@jetnet.ab.ca> Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > When I build my first house, I am going to have a 200 A service for the > machine room, and a 200 A service for everything else. > > Peace... Sridhar Better add another 200 A for Air Conditioning! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From fernande at internet1.net Thu Dec 27 19:23:53 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Powering ancient computers (was: Happy Holidays!) References: <003101c18e8e$dbfbd860$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011227160511.02558718@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3C2BC9A9.EB976BC3@internet1.net> I've never heard that, before. Where did you learn/read that? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Roger Merchberger wrote: > I also think that it should be kept in mind that Native American people > shouldn't be chastised for disliking Thanksgiving - remember, it was a > "going away party" to the Europeans, they never left... ;-) From rcini at optonline.net Thu Dec 27 13:54:48 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Aim65 Haul/housecleaning Message-ID: Hello, all: Happy holidays to all! I made a quick stop in Northern New Jersey this morning for a load of AIM65 stuff from a guy who used to manufacture a custom insurance rating computer that used the AIM as the base board. In short, this is what I got: * 8 AIM65 main boards in various states of cannibalism. 5 have displays. Different manufacturing dates, one a late-model with two high-density RAM chips in place of the 2114s. * Bag of printer parts and about 5 printers in various stages of rebuilding. * Case+ of paper * 2 Memory Plus boards * 1 EPROM programmer * 5 spare keyboards, all missing keys * 3 metal bases * 5 blow-molded case tops * Assembly hardware and related items * 4 full tubes of 2114 RAM chips * 7 full tubes of 2532 EPROMS I will be "auctioning" off to the group the bases and tops as well as some of the main boards. I will keep a small amount of the spares for my own AIM and all of the chips. I also have three books up for grabs: * A Programmer's Viwe of the Intel 432 System (Organick) * Inside Commodore DOS (Immers) * MicroC/OS-II RTOS book with disk (Labrosse) If anyone is interested in any of the three case sets, some of the spare keyboards or main boards or any of the books, please contact me off-list. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From foo at siconic.com Thu Dec 27 14:44:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Aim65 Haul/housecleaning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > I made a quick stop in Northern New Jersey this morning for a > load of AIM65 stuff from a guy who used to manufacture a custom > insurance rating computer that used the AIM as the base board. In > short, this is what I got: So Mike finally gave up the lot. I tried negotiating with him on this a few years back but he seemed to think he was sitting on top of a pile of gold. I hope you got it at a fair price :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 27 14:24:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question In-Reply-To: <20011227150342.26009.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> from "lee courtney" at Dec 27, 1 07:03:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1173 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011227/9e675afb/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Thu Dec 27 18:36:27 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: /On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:24:17 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: #> Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating #> part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving #> these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just #> gently hand rinse? THanks! # #A word of warning : HP have used some _very_ fragile stickers over the #years. With ink that disolves in just about anything. # What I do is cover any label I want to save with clear packing tape, making sure to overlap and seal the edges. Then, I can clean with whatever I want, and the label is preserved. Louis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 27 21:17:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question In-Reply-To: from "Louis Schulman" at Dec 27, 1 07:36:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 519 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011228/d43be1cf/attachment.ksh From fernande at internet1.net Thu Dec 27 19:28:18 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question References: Message-ID: <3C2BCAB2.6AC7F875@internet1.net> I've done that before, usually when I spray a sticker down with Fantastic..... sometimes it'll strip the writing write off the plastic sticker, other times it might smear it a little bit. My usual reaction is oops :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Tony Duell wrote: > A word of warning : HP have used some _very_ fragile stickers over the > years. With ink that disolves in just about anything. > > As I mentioned the other day I recently restored an HP97 calculator. The > case was pretty dirty so after stripping everything out of it I used my > standard foam cleaner (an Electrolube product) to clean it. > > On the back of the case was a label which originally said something like > 'Use only the HP charger specified in the instruction manual'. After > cleaning the case it was completely blank :-(. I peeled off the remains > of it -- no point in having a blank label on the machine. > > Now, as I wanted the machine to use rather than collect, and as the label > didn't tell me anything important, I'm not too bothered. But had it been > something like a revision code, I'd have been annoyed. > > So I would recomend recording all the details on labels on HP boards and > cases (or photographing them, or whatever) before attempting to clean the > unit. > > -tony From edick at idcomm.com Thu Dec 27 19:24:18 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question References: Message-ID: <004701c18f3e$5f315f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Perhaps the best thing would be to heat the labels, etc, with a hair dryer and peel them off, keeping track of where they went. After the boards are cleaned, etc, you replace the labels using rubber cement. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Robertson" To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 8:47 AM Subject: Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question > > > >Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating > >part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving > >these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just > >gently hand rinse? THanks! > > > > I'd think ANY cleaning would put them at risk. If you don't want to loose > the information, better document it somewhere. > > SteveRob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > From vcf at vintage.org Thu Dec 27 14:59:11 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: OT: Rackmount slider kit for IBM Netfinity 5100 Message-ID: I have a new rackmount slider kit for the IBM Netfinity 5100. This is the kit that came with the unit so that you can rackmount it. The part number on the box is 09N7484. It'll probably work with other cases in the 5x00 series. Best offer by Jan. 2 gets it. Otherwise, it probably gets recycled. Please reply privately (I know you will ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From sieler at allegro.com Thu Dec 27 15:23:25 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: UnCursing the Darkness. In-Reply-To: <003901c18eef$46446560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3C2B20CD.31332.496B0B1@localhost> > Thanks. My criteria for noticeably warm and uncomfortably > warm (for an LED) was about <5degF and <20degF > respectively. I know you can get more, heat, but that always > seemed to not be the thing to do with LED's. You might be able to find more info at the Virtual LED Museum: http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/ledleft.htm Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu Dec 27 16:01:27 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Booting a VAX 4000-500 from KFQSA SCSI.... ARRRRRGH!!!!! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011227155531.03174e08@127.0.0.1> (Grumble)..... I'm getting conflicting information regarding the ability to boot the 4000 from SCSI devices attached to the KFQSA SCSI adapter. Some people say you can't do it, some say they actually have done it. I have a DEC RRD-43AA CD-ROM drive, and have it connected to an external SCSI box with a cable from it to the KFQSA adapter. Onboard the 4000 are two DSSI drives. The 4000 is able to recognize and assign device identifiers to the ethernet port and the two DSSI drives, but has no clue ragarding anything attached to the SCSI (KZQSA) card. Is there anything I need to do with the "VMB" to make it recognize the CD-ROM drive, or am I missing a step? I'm attempting to boot the 4000 from the CD-ROM and start the VMS 6 installation process. Thanks! - Matt Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From dittman at dittman.net Thu Dec 27 16:24:32 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Booting a VAX 4000-500 from KFQSA SCSI.... ARRRRRGH!!!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011227155531.03174e08@127.0.0.1> from "Matthew Sell" at Dec 27, 2001 04:01:27 PM Message-ID: <200112272224.fBRMOW104797@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I'm getting conflicting information regarding the ability to boot the 4000 > from SCSI devices attached to the KFQSA SCSI adapter. Some people say you > can't do it, some say they actually have done it. > > I have a DEC RRD-43AA CD-ROM drive, and have it connected to an external > SCSI box with a cable from it to the KFQSA adapter. Onboard the 4000 are > two DSSI drives. > > The 4000 is able to recognize and assign device identifiers to the ethernet > port and the two DSSI drives, but has no clue ragarding anything attached > to the SCSI (KZQSA) card. Is it a KFQSA or a KZQSA? If it is the KFQSA, then it is a DSSI controller, not a SCSI controller. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu Dec 27 16:26:23 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: (correction) Booting a VAX 4000-500 from KFQSA SCSI.... ARRRRRGH!!!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011227155531.03174e08@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011227162548.031c9dc0@127.0.0.1> Correction - It's a KZQSA - not KFQSA...... - Matt At 04:01 PM 12/27/2001 -0600, you wrote: >(Grumble)..... > >I'm getting conflicting information regarding the ability to boot the 4000 >from SCSI devices attached to the KFQSA SCSI adapter. Some people say you >can't do it, some say they actually have done it. > >I have a DEC RRD-43AA CD-ROM drive, and have it connected to an external >SCSI box with a cable from it to the KFQSA adapter. Onboard the 4000 are >two DSSI drives. > >The 4000 is able to recognize and assign device identifiers to the >ethernet port and the two DSSI drives, but has no clue ragarding anything >attached to the SCSI (KZQSA) card. > >Is there anything I need to do with the "VMB" to make it recognize the >CD-ROM drive, or am I missing a step? > >I'm attempting to boot the 4000 from the CD-ROM and start the VMS 6 >installation process. > >Thanks! > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > >Matthew Sell >Programmer >On Time Support, Inc. >www.ontimesupport.com >(281) 296-6066 > >Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! >http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > >"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad >"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > >Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu Dec 27 16:21:45 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: DS5000/1xx & VS4000/60 memory specs References: Message-ID: <006c01c18f25$c566dfe0$93469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 07:47 PM Subject: Re: DS5000/1xx & VS4000/60 memory specs > On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > I'm looking for detailed module specs for the vaxstation 4000, and > > probably for the decstation 5000/1xx. > > I have a pile of 32M modules that my supplier thought work in a vs4k, > > but they don't. While I can't find any references to the labeling, > > y'alls' best guess seems to be that they are ram for a decstation > > 5000/1xx. I'd like to find out if the difference is something that can > > be modified, to make them compatible with the VAX. Failing that, if I > > can verify that they really are DS modules, I can sell them. > > The SIMMs themselves are from several different lots, but the > > common label, which looks like a DEC/Compaq P/N to me, is 33522947-001. > > Lastly, what's a 32M SIMM worth? I've got a little over $25 each in > > these. If they're worth that, I'll convert or sell them, if not I'll > > return them as misrepresented. > > > > Doc > > > > > > > > > Dont know about the VS4000 but DS5000/1xx/xx modules only come in two > sizes, 2M and 8M. DS5000/2XX modules come in 32M size but they are not > SIMMS (they are large and have .1" female headers) And VAXstation 4000-90 simms are 4M & 16M. Other 4k machines may take others-- my track record with machines I don't own isn't so good lately so I'll refrain from making statements regarding them... > > Peter Wallace Bob From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu Dec 27 16:41:57 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters References: Message-ID: <00d301c18f27$b1f981e0$93469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:13 AM Subject: Re: add-on CPU load meters > On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I can *not* find this again, even after an hour of Googling, Altavista-ing > > and Freshmeating. Anybody else remember this? Got any URLs? > > > > It would be a blast to watch the needle peg when, say, you fired up > > a CPU pig of a game or were digesting /usr/spool/news or some such. > > It would be less interesting on a system running, say, Seti-At-Home > > where the load is more-or-less constant. > > Here ya go: > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/status/led-stat.txt > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/status/ledstatus-0.1.tgz I built that thing a number of years ago. I thought it was pretty neat to see it flashing, but then I've never experienced real Blinkenlights. > > -Toth Bob From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Dec 27 17:07:21 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Image 625x425 pixels In-Reply-To: <20011227160944.94560.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3C2B2DC6.9050808@texoma.net> <20011227160944.94560.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011227230721.GA4373@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Dec 27, 2001 at 08:09:44AM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- "James L. Rice" wrote: > > > > http://www.switkin.com/software/geeklights/schem1.gif > > > > Thank you. I couldn't find a link on the site. > > Looks like a standard ladder D-to-A and a standard comparator > bargraph (built one once from a Heathkit surface mount course). > > > I'm a little concerned about the bottom of the schematic - it looks like > you are supposed to run -5V to ground! No, as far is I can tell, this is just a misleading label. The whole device is supposed to be powered from a drive power feed from the inside of the PC. The "-5 V" label here just means "connect to ground of +5 V supply". Regards, Alex. -- q: If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor? a: I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word. -- Harald Koenig asking Donald E. Knuth From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 18:11:37 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Image 625x425 pixels In-Reply-To: <20011227230721.GA4373@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20011228001137.49442.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Thu, Dec 27, 2001 at 08:09:44AM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'm a little concerned about the bottom of the schematic - it looks > > likeyou are supposed to run -5V to ground! > > No, as far is I can tell, this is just a misleading label. The whole > device is supposed to be powered from a drive power feed from the inside > of the PC. The "-5 V" label here just means "connect to ground of +5 V > supply". That explains the "black wire" comment... -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From vcf at vintage.org Thu Dec 27 23:44:13 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: I bought eBay! Message-ID: http://www.siconic.com/crap/PC270014.JPG I couldn't resist ;) (For those without the benefit of a GWB, it's a photo of a game I just bought at the toy store called "eBay Electronic-Talking Auction Game" :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 27 17:05:33 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: I bought eBay! References: Message-ID: <3C2BA93D.D9F80CE3@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/PC270014.JPG > I couldn't resist ;) > > (For those without the benefit of a GWB, it's a photo of a game I just > bought at the toy store called "eBay Electronic-Talking Auction Game" :) ** Excuse me while I throw UP! ** -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Dec 28 00:23:32 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? References: Message-ID: <00a501c18f68$2c49f660$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> I have the opportunity to acquire a Decstation VT78 (basically a PDP-8 crammed into a VT52 terminal) but the price seems a bit steep. I've been looking for one for abut 2 years and this is the first one I've come across. It doesn't include the cart or any drives. Any thoughts on how high I should go? From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 28 00:54:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? In-Reply-To: <00a501c18f68$2c49f660$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > I have the opportunity to acquire a Decstation VT78 (basically a PDP-8 > crammed into a VT52 terminal) but the price seems a bit steep. I've > been looking for one for abut 2 years and this is the first one I've > come across. It doesn't include the cart or any drives. Any thoughts > on how high I should go? $100 tops. If you want it really bad, $150 ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Dec 28 01:32:01 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? References: Message-ID: <000001c18f72$fc4c7f40$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> > On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > > I have the opportunity to acquire a Decstation VT78 (basically a PDP-8 > > crammed into a VT52 terminal) but the price seems a bit steep. I've > > been looking for one for abut 2 years and this is the first one I've > > come across. It doesn't include the cart or any drives. Any thoughts > > on how high I should go? > > $100 tops. If you want it really bad, $150 ;) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival So, if I want it really, really bad, should I meet the $200 asking price? From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Dec 28 02:23:23 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: I bought eBay! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh. My. God. g. On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/PC270014.JPG > > I couldn't resist ;) > > (For those without the benefit of a GWB, it's a photo of a game I just > bought at the toy store called "eBay Electronic-Talking Auction Game" :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From fernande at internet1.net Fri Dec 28 00:36:23 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:49 2005 Subject: Interesting find today! Message-ID: <3C2C12E7.E87CDF29@internet1.net> I decided to take a trip down to Fort Wayne today, to one of my favorite surplus shops. I found a box of SCO Open Desktop 2.0.0. I don't know anything about this specific version, but I thought it interesting since it is quite removed from the current Caldera offerings. It appears to never have been installed. It only has 6 main disks.... 3 3.5" floppies and 3 5.25" floppies, that have been opened, but I find it hard to believe that they are anything more than boot and drivers disks. It also has 2 more disks, one of each size, these are unopened, and I don't know what they are. I assume that the bulk of the OS is on the Qic24 tape, that is unopened. Unfortunately, I only have two tape drives..... audio cassette, and VHS, and those aren't for the computer :-) I did try the 3.5" boot floppy on two of my computers..... it stops during the hardware detect portion.... maybe because it can't find a tape drive? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Fri Dec 28 01:35:40 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: PC software/books for shipping Message-ID: <3C2C20CC.E74764CE@internet1.net> Hello Everyone, I'm cleaning again! -Inside Netware 3.12 5th Edition New Riders Publishing (cd-included) -Microhelp Uninstaller 4 on 3.5" floppies (no box) -Quarterdeck Cleansweep 95 on 3.5" floppies (no box) -Norton utilities for Win95 ver 3.0 (cd and 2 sets of floppies, no manual) -Quicken 6.0 for DOS on 360K floppies in the box (I copied the floppies onto 1 3.5" floppy too) I'm not sure if this is Y2K compliant! -Norton Utilities 8.0 for Win 3.1 and DOS Manual only! -Quarterdeck Manifest manual only! -Quarterdeck QEMM 8 for DOS, Win 3.1, and Win 95 (in the box)(It saved my info in the "registered too" section, but my name doesn't seem to pop up, I used something else) -Basic Apple Basic by James S. Coan Hayden Book Company -Word Perfect 5.1 for Windows "Trade Up from DOS" (It will install without a current install of the DOS version) On 5.25" floppies in box Buyer pays shipping rounded up to the nearest dollar..... I'll probably ship USPS Priority since they'll give me boxes. Please reply off list. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 28 01:40:28 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > On the other hand (and to bring us slightly closer to topic), I got my > 200Amp load center installed and wired up. Now I just need to get an > inspection (ummmm.... Yup, thats a load center.... Your wire is the > improper shade of red, you'll have to replace it all...), and get PSCo > out to hook the feed wire up. Then I'll have an extra 80Amps to run > VAXEN!!!!!! I spent part of the day gathering up the remaining bits of EMT conduit and boxes for my new building's electrical systems. Only stuff left for me to buy is NMT conduit/boxes/fittings for network and low voltage wiring. Eventually I'll have a finished building and a 100A branch where my boxes can live. -Toth From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 27 19:30:19 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do?" (Dec 27, 8:14) References: <20011227161435.94938.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10112280130.ZM7242@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 27, 8:14, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > It's a commercial 4-layer board. The legend says "Tellima Technology Ltd > > (C) 1995", "PC03753"... > > I had no idea people were making OMNIBUS boards in 1995. That's amazing. > There are still machines in commercial use, but most of them are so deep > inside something else that nobody knows how to upgrade them, let alone > _want_ to change out the old for the new. > > I see they are a British company (http://www.tellima.co.uk) I guess that > means that their products will be a wee bit less common on this side of > the pond. They seem to be rare enough over here! I found Tellima's web site a while ago, and mailed them about the board, but so far haven't had a reply. They're only about 40 miles away from me, so if I get any encouragement from them, I might pay a visit. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 27 19:43:51 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: M865/M8650 (was Re: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do?) In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "M865/M8650 (was Re: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do?)" (Dec 27, 8:22) References: <20011227162226.26282.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10112280143.ZM7246@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 27, 8:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > How different is an M865? Is it only current-loop? > > It is different. There is no 40-pin BERG connector - it has a set of > split lugs line a W-076 card and a 18" cable with a standard Mate-n-Lok > connector as seen on KSR-33s and VT220s, etc. I do not recall if I have > any docs on it, but except for the 20mA/EIA differences, I think it's > substantially similar, logically, to the M8650. It's a console port, > only, permanently set to 03/04. I forget if the M8650 is modifyable or > not. The M8650 is, the jumpers on the split lugs near the 'A' fingers set the address. Sounds like you might want something like a DLV11-KA -- that's a 20mA to EIA converter in a little black box about 4" x 2" x 1/2". Actually, that would be overkill; it has a 110 baud generator, reader-run control, and other options. It's meant to add 20mA capability to EIA-only devices like a DLV11-J but it can be used for any RS232-20mA conversion. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 28 01:50:05 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: <00d301c18f27$b1f981e0$93469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > I built that thing a number of years ago. I thought it was pretty neat to > see it flashing, but then I've never experienced real Blinkenlights. The SGI 210S I have sitting in storage actually has a bar graph for its cpus. It has a 10 segment (I think) led bar graph for each of the 8 cpus that can be installed. Currently, mine only has a single cpu, but I might add the full set of 8 if I can find 4 dual cpu cards for the machine. -Toth From wilby98 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 02:43:39 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de Message-ID: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> On my quest to get more "stuff" of a classic nature I came across these items on eBay in Germany. http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1311492128 Now, I do not speak German and in fact know very little about VAX's in general. But for some reason the notion of having one is appealing. Also, these items are "relatively" close (me being in Holland). Time is running out on these but it looks like they have a minimum acceptable bid. Does that mean that if the bid is not met you can negotiate a price outside of the auction? (I don't know much about eBay either). How do they look to you VAX owners/operators? Bill Amsterdam, NL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 27 17:44:16 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: After Xmas Sale 11/44 wanted References: Message-ID: <3C2BB250.6DF46D0E@jetnet.ab.ca> Mike Ford wrote: > > > Okay, just bear with me. At one time I had Dec By The Ton. I had Systems > >in every room of the house save the Loo, because I was afraid the steam > >from the shower would hurt Things. And, in the Fulness of Time, I sold > > Ah, the true test of the DEC fanatic, willingness to take cold showers for > life so systems could be located in EVERY room of the house. > > OTOH somebody must have made an industrial version with a sealed front > panel. Perfect for toggling in a few lines of code while sitting. I leave that room free for reading the DEC manuals and other computer books. :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html -- PS. I don't have any PDP-8 stuff but some how I still have the 'introduction to programing the PDP-8'? (Cover wore off) From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 28 03:35:24 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? In-Reply-To: <000001c18f72$fc4c7f40$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > So, if I want it really, really bad, should I meet the $200 asking > price? I don't think $200 is completely out of line, but it is a bit high. Try talking him down to $150, and if you meet halfway at $175 then you've done a decent job ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 09:17:29 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011228151729.77631.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > > I have the opportunity to acquire a Decstation VT78 (basically a PDP-8 > > crammed into a VT52 terminal) but the price seems a bit steep. I've > > been looking for one for abut 2 years and this is the first one I've > > come across. It doesn't include the cart or any drives. Any thoughts > > on how high I should go? > > $100 tops. If you want it really bad, $150 ;) Cool... that's on my wish-list, too (I have almost every other model... still missing 8/S, 8/f and 8/m) I've been looking for substantially longer than two years. Some of my newer stuff came from the local university - they used to use WPS-8 in some of the departments. The father of a grade-school classmate of mine would bring machines home to use there as they threw out one model after another. I managed to get a 42" racked -8/a w/RX02, a DM-I and a DM-III through him. Even cooler, by the principle of Classic Attraction, I found the desktop add-on for the DM-I cart at the surplus barn (marked $5) and on another visit weeks later, I found the mounting bracket (Free!) If you aren't familiar with the DM-I, it is a PDP-8 crammed into a VT-100, typically sitting on a typing-height pedestal with one or two RX02 drives built in with the drive mechanisms stacked vertically, 2 or 4. There is usually a keyboard shelf that clips onto holes in one side of the pedestal. Optionally, there was a table-top that had only one side-panel; the drive pedestal held the other side up. There was a bracket for the keyboard slots that held up the edge of the table. While it would be nice to have the VT78 cart, I wouldn't be unhappy to get one without. The drives are going to be standard RX drives inside (I forget if the VT78 used RX01 or RX02), but the packaging and cabling might be difficult to locate now. If you are lucky, it's the same as for the DM-I (DB-25 on the drive with a board that runs the pins from a DB-25 to a Berg-40; DC-37 on the CPU. There were two cables available for the DM-I - one with one DB25, and one with two. One of these days, I'm going to make the double-header cable so I can run a second set of floppies from my DM-I, but that's a low-priority project). -ethan -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Dec 28 04:28:03 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question In-Reply-To: lee courtney "One More PCB Dishwasher Question" (Dec 27, 7:03) References: <20011227150342.26009.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10112281028.ZM7660@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 27, 7:03, lee courtney wrote: > Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating > part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving > these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just > gently hand rinse? THanks! Hand rinse will do almost as much damage to some labels as the dishwasher. If I wanted to preserve the labels, I would try to take them off. Before you do any of this, make a note of what each one says and exactly where it was! If they're really old, and the glue has dried out, they may come off quite easily, with a little assistance from a scalpel blade or a thin knife, slid under the label. If they're not quite so dried out, white spirit or label remover may soften the glue enough for you to peel them off carefully. Try a corner of *one* first, in case your solvent makes the ink run. Be patient, it takes a while. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Dec 28 09:19:32 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question References: <20011227150342.26009.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> Never run boards through a dishwasher! This has got to be one of the most insane ideas I've ever heard. Commercial PCB's do get washed, but only after the water has been deionized with some rather expensive and high maintainance equipment. I'm quite sure that manufacturers don't go through the expense of maintaining this gear if your maytag washer could do the job. Lots of domestic water supplies have 'hard water' and.or high mineral content that will dammage or destroy your boards. Maybe not while they are in the washer, but corrosion may set in later. lee courtney wrote: > Hi all, > > The thread on cleaning cards by running them through > the dishwasher was timely as I am resurrecting an > HP3000/XE. The system came from Pacific Pipe in > Oakland and is the *filthest* system I have ever seen. > The "computer room" on the second floor was left open > to the work yard and all matter of dirt, dust, grime > etc was sucked into the CPU, disc drive and tape. The > CPU boards literally had a layer of grime covering > them. > > Of course since this was an HP box it booted right up > even though it was basically "clogged". > > Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating > part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving > these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just > gently hand rinse? THanks! > > Lee Courtney > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 28 09:59:11 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question In-Reply-To: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> References: <20011227150342.26009.qmail@web20810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228094845.02c7aa58@127.0.0.1> How many times do we need to go through this? It's perfectly fine to use your dishwasher!!!!!!!!!!! The fact is that many PCB manufacturers use the very same equipment during manufacture - and many do not use water filtration of deionizing facilities. The design and use of the board dictates the treatment that needs to be applied to the water source. Of course, if you use water directly from the Mississippi River, you probably need to use a filter.... Check previous posts regarding this subject. You will see insight from people that, like myself, are in this business currently or have experience with board cleaning and preparation. I run EVERYTHING through the dishwaser, with the exception of transformers and large filter capacitors. I've placed entire computers (minus hard drive - but WITH power supply and floppy drive) into the dishwasher. I did this many, many times. Both personally and professionally I have not had a SINGLE failure. Using a dishwasher on your PC boards will not destroy them. Do not use harsh detergents, or the plate warming or drying features. Dry the boards completely. Do not wash boards such as core memory boards for mechanical stress reasons. I'm amazed at how many professionals use dishwashers to clean PCBs for a variety of hobbies, and openly discuss and encourage the use of this method, and the number of people who say you just can't do it - or it can't work - or you'll destroy the boards. - Matt P.S. - If you think that all of the electronic stuff you buy has been cleaned by a very expensive and high maintenance water filtration solution, then you are sadly mistaken. I've worked for companies that use this method without filtration, and consulted for a few others. You have their devices in your home, in your car, and on the planes you fly in. At 10:19 AM 12/28/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Never run boards through a dishwasher! > >This has got to be one of the most insane ideas I've ever heard. > >Commercial PCB's do get washed, but only after the water has >been deionized with some rather expensive and high maintainance >equipment. > >I'm quite sure that manufacturers don't go through the expense of >maintaining >this gear if your maytag washer could do the job. > >Lots of domestic water supplies have 'hard water' and.or high mineral >content >that will dammage or destroy your boards. Maybe not while they are in >the >washer, but corrosion may set in later. > >lee courtney wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > The thread on cleaning cards by running them through > > the dishwasher was timely as I am resurrecting an > > HP3000/XE. The system came from Pacific Pipe in > > Oakland and is the *filthest* system I have ever seen. > > The "computer room" on the second floor was left open > > to the work yard and all matter of dirt, dust, grime > > etc was sucked into the CPU, disc drive and tape. The > > CPU boards literally had a layer of grime covering > > them. > > > > Of course since this was an HP box it booted right up > > even though it was basically "clogged". > > > > Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating > > part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving > > these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just > > gently hand rinse? THanks! > > > > Lee Courtney > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > http://greetings.yahoo.com Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Dec 28 10:04:35 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467453@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! >Many of the HP cards have paper stickers indicating ! >part number, revision, etc. Any thoughts on preserving ! >these through a dishwasher cycle? Or should I just ! >gently hand rinse? THanks! ! > ! ! I'd think ANY cleaning would put them at risk. If you don't ! want to loose ! the information, better document it somewhere. What about re-creating the labels, using the Avery label sheets? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Dec 28 05:20:24 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Be no more, get a BeBox? In-Reply-To: <200112261310.IAA15727@wordstock.com> Message-ID: > Check out http://www.be.com ... On January 16th the is going to be a >public liquidation auction. Maybe there will be some BeBoxen? Anybody make a mirror of the Be site yet? I think Palm has everything still up right now, but.... From jrice at texoma.net Fri Dec 28 09:17:44 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Be no more, get a BeBox? References: Message-ID: <3C2C8D18.7080602@texoma.net> Actually the Be site is down to just close out stuff. Mike Ford wrote: >> Check out http://www.be.com ... On January 16th the is going to be a >>public liquidation auction. Maybe there will be some BeBoxen? >> > >Anybody make a mirror of the Be site yet? > >I think Palm has everything still up right now, but.... > > > >. > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Dec 28 06:43:43 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de In-Reply-To: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl>; from wilby98@yahoo.com on Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 09:43:39 CET References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20011228134343.Q10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.28 09:43 William S . wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1311492128 Are that the two MV4k200 for EUR 361,00??? If yes, forget it. The MV4k200 is a nice machine, but that price is _much_ to high. I would not pay more than EUR 50,- for a MV4k200 like that. Even EUR 50,- is high for only 16MB RAM, 200MB disk, TK70 and no other peripherals. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Dec 28 10:17:40 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <20011228134343.Q10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <001a01c18fbb$2d477a80$6b469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jochen Kunz" To: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 07:43 AM Subject: Re: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de > On 2001.12.28 09:43 William S . wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1311492128 > Are that the two MV4k200 for EUR 361,00??? > If yes, forget it. The MV4k200 is a nice machine, but that price is > _much_ to high. > I would not pay more than EUR 50,- for a MV4k200 like that. Even EUR > 50,- is high for only 16MB RAM, 200MB disk, TK70 and no other > peripherals. > -- And, keep in mind that I got my VAX 6310 with 32MB ram, RA82, RA92, & TU81+ for free, which is a much larger machine. (Bigger is better, right? :) I forwarded a post to classiccmp from c.o.v regarding "Looking for new home: VAX6620 + VAX6530 cluster" located in Zurich-- I don't know how close that is to you, but it's got to be closer to you than me! It was a pretty nice config, so I'd imagine that's it's gone, but it couldn't hurt to ask. > > > > tsch??, > Jochen Bob From spedraja at ono.com Fri Dec 28 09:25:05 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de Message-ID: <005a01c18fb3$d3f2b0a0$0101a8c0@gw.cavorita.net> > I would not pay more than EUR 50,- for a MV4k200 like that. Even EUR > 50,- is high for only 16MB RAM, 200MB disk, TK70 and no other > peripherals. 501 Euros, final price of the auction. If somebody in the USA can send me a pallet of them for $100 everyone (final price shipping included) to the Madrid airport to put them in auction, I shall be very happy. With this range of prices I even can earn money. It's incredible. Sergio From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Dec 28 07:39:41 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: PC software/books for shipping In-Reply-To: <3C2C20CC.E74764CE@internet1.net> Message-ID: Turn the priority boxes inside out and use them for "media mail" which is generally less unless the package is very light. All software qualifies as media mail, as do tapes and other things. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 1:36 AM To: Classic Computers; rescue@sunhelp.org; survpc@softcon.com Subject: PC software/books for shipping Hello Everyone, I'm cleaning again! -Inside Netware 3.12 5th Edition New Riders Publishing (cd-included) -Microhelp Uninstaller 4 on 3.5" floppies (no box) -Quarterdeck Cleansweep 95 on 3.5" floppies (no box) -Norton utilities for Win95 ver 3.0 (cd and 2 sets of floppies, no manual) -Quicken 6.0 for DOS on 360K floppies in the box (I copied the floppies onto 1 3.5" floppy too) I'm not sure if this is Y2K compliant! -Norton Utilities 8.0 for Win 3.1 and DOS Manual only! -Quarterdeck Manifest manual only! -Quarterdeck QEMM 8 for DOS, Win 3.1, and Win 95 (in the box)(It saved my info in the "registered too" section, but my name doesn't seem to pop up, I used something else) -Basic Apple Basic by James S. Coan Hayden Book Company -Word Perfect 5.1 for Windows "Trade Up from DOS" (It will install without a current install of the DOS version) On 5.25" floppies in box Buyer pays shipping rounded up to the nearest dollar..... I'll probably ship USPS Priority since they'll give me boxes. Please reply off list. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Dec 28 09:00:27 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: PC software/books for shipping References: Message-ID: <3C2C890B.5A92118D@verizon.net> Russ, > Turn the priority boxes inside out and use them for "media mail" > which is generally less unless the package is very light. All > software qualifies as media mail, as do tapes and other things. Wrong answer. These boxes are stamped on the inside because the post office got wise to this. Priority Mail materials are supposed to be used ONLY FOR PRIORITY MAIL. The postal service may even have made you sign an agreement to this effect if you get these materials delivered directly to you. If you do this, you may find you have wasted the time for a trip to the post office if they won't accept your package, or even worse, if it got into the system and then returned to sender. Ian Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Turn the priority boxes inside out and use them for "media mail" which is > generally less unless the package is very light. All software qualifies as > media mail, as do tapes and other things. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 1:36 AM > To: Classic Computers; rescue@sunhelp.org; survpc@softcon.com > Subject: PC software/books for shipping > > Hello Everyone, > > I'm cleaning again! > > -Inside Netware 3.12 5th Edition New Riders Publishing (cd-included) > > -Microhelp Uninstaller 4 on 3.5" floppies (no box) > > -Quarterdeck Cleansweep 95 on 3.5" floppies (no box) > > -Norton utilities for Win95 ver 3.0 (cd and 2 sets of floppies, no > manual) > > -Quicken 6.0 for DOS on 360K floppies in the box (I copied the floppies > onto 1 3.5" floppy too) I'm not sure if this is Y2K compliant! > > -Norton Utilities 8.0 for Win 3.1 and DOS Manual only! > > -Quarterdeck Manifest manual only! > > -Quarterdeck QEMM 8 for DOS, Win 3.1, and Win 95 (in the box)(It saved > my info in the "registered too" section, but my name doesn't seem to pop > up, I used something else) > > -Basic Apple Basic by James S. Coan Hayden Book Company > > -Word Perfect 5.1 for Windows "Trade Up from DOS" (It will install > without a current install of the DOS version) On 5.25" floppies in box > > Buyer pays shipping rounded up to the nearest dollar..... I'll probably > ship USPS Priority since they'll give me boxes. Please reply off list. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Fri Dec 28 08:42:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: PC software/books for shipping References: <3C2C20CC.E74764CE@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3C2C84CB.85575625@internet1.net> Well this was quick..... Everything has been spoken for, thanks! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Dec 28 08:12:10 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: SCO Open Desktop (was Re: Interesting find today!) In-Reply-To: Chad Fernandez's message of "Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:36:23 -0500" References: <3C2C12E7.E87CDF29@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200112281412.fBSECA755552@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Chad Fernandez wrote: > I found a box of SCO Open Desktop 2.0.0. I don't know anything about At Wollongong, we had this installed on a ca. 1991 Compaq, something like a 386/20, with a monochrome VGA display. And yes, it did get most of its bits from the tape; we had an Everex QIC drive of some sort attached. I remember going through some grief to get it configured (more preceisely, re-configured after some biscuit of a QA engineer installed TWG's TCP/IP then decided he needed SCO's TCP/IP, which of course forced re-installation of the whole thing), but it was long enough ago to be on topic here and I no longer remember the details, except that I wrote them down and taped the paper to the tape drive which is long gone. Open Desktop is a SCO/Motif flavored X GUI. If you really want to use the GUI stuff, give it more oomph than Wollongong did: it was painfully slow on that Compaq. Along about 1995 the system was being used more for testing a "SCO ANSI" terminal emulation and I worked out how to make it not start X on boot, and it continued running that way (off in a corner with almost no attention) until April 1999 when Attachmate shut down the former Wollongong offices. -Frank McConnell From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 09:21:28 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: PDP8/A memory problems, what to do? In-Reply-To: <10112280130.ZM7242@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011228152128.88439.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 27, 8:14, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > It's a commercial 4-layer board. The legend says "Tellima Technology > > > Ltd (C) 1995", "PC03753"... > > > > I see they are a British company (http://www.tellima.co.uk)... > > They seem to be rare enough over here! They probably only made a few dozen at most, possibly a run of 10-25. Even as process control components, there's not a lot of demand. > I found Tellima's web site a while ago, and mailed them about the board, > but so far haven't had a reply. I mailed them, too. I doubt I'll get one, either. > They're only about 40 miles away from me, so if I get any encouragement > from them, I might pay a visit. That'd be cool. They probably sold their last one some time ago, but I'd love to see schematics (to see how they implemented the OMNIBUS part of the RAM). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 28 09:48:44 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: UnCursing the Darkness. References: <3C2B20CD.31332.496B0B1@localhost> Message-ID: <000a01c18fb7$2253f800$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > You might be able to find more info at the Virtual LED > Museum: http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/ledleft.htm It looks like this is going to do the trick. I may have to throw out the ammeter on my el cheapo power supply. (And subconsciously I may still be not accepting that its possible to get so much light from so small a wattage.) Thanks! John A. From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 28 10:05:03 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: WYSE terminals Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E03A@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hello, Can anyone tell me how different the WYSE keyboards with the DIN-style plug are from the keyboards with the modular plug? I have a WYSE terminal with a modular keyboard receptacle, and a keyboard with a DIN-ish plug. Any chance I can crimp a modular end on it and use it? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Dec 28 10:13:06 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467454@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! .... but after ! two days of searching, I guess I _will_ have to go do it myself. ! ! Somewhere in my junk boxes, I have some .5" tall by 1.5" wide signal ! meters that I think I pulled from a dead CB radio, c. 1978 (pre-40- ! channel). The plane of the needle swing is parallel to the floor, ! and the needle has a 90-degree bend at the end, so you see a .2" ! tall vertical line slide from left to right as the signal improves. ! If I can find it, it'll mount perfectly in a 3.5" blank faceplace. ! ! Now to excavate the old parts! This is a neat project... keep us informed... :) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 28 10:39:42 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Power Series In-Reply-To: <20011227162417Z658442-695+594@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E02F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011228102337.024784b8@pc> At 09:24 AM 12/27/2001 -0700, Mark Green wrote: >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > Both of my >> SGIs, for instance, have analog video in/out, which is a start. On the >> other hand, you can't really do a good animation with anything "out of the >> box." It usually takes a lot of strange stuff. > >What it really takes is software. Most computer animation is a batch >process, you run a renderer for hours, days, months, etc. I run two >rendering farms at work, neither of which have a single graphics card >on them. All the texture mapping and similar visual effects is done >in software, no need for graphics hardware. What Mark is saying is that there's at least two different kinds of rendering, and people sometimes chose SGIs for one reason but not the necessarily the other. One, you might like to have fast processors and hardware acceleration of textured polygons for the real-time view of your 3D data. Example users would include military simulation, virtual reality, flight simulators, etc. The second group, 3D computer animators making special effects and movies, they not only need the real-time stuff during the modeling stage, but they also appreciated the raw horsepower when it came to rendering, which is usually a purely software-based operation. Thus today you'll see places like Pixar with immense rendering farms of headless machines with no video graphics hardware, as well as very whizzy workstations for modeling and composing the 3D scenes. Not long ago, though, distributed rendering wasn't commonplace, and an animator might've been forced to buy additional full workstations or ones with light graphics power for batch rendering. If you pick up an old SGI box, if you were extremely lucky you might get an old animation package that does the modeling and the rendering. They were usually keyed to the SGI box's unique CPU ID. You might get the CDs but no key, and you're out of luck. I must remind the younger folks out there that as recently as less than ten years ago, you'd see animators taking out six-figure loans to buy the SGI and software they needed to run their shop, for just one or two animators. :-) On the other hand, SGI distributed lots and lots of source code and demos, and had a few unkeyed applications that may run on the box you got if you get the CDs. These include real-time interactive demos and apps. They'd give away these annual "Hot Mix" CDs at trade shows by the stack. I have a bunch I should eBay someday. Given that SGI Indy boxes are going for less than $100 these days, if you ever had an itch to see what they were all about, you no longer have any excuses. - John From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 28 11:22:59 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question In-Reply-To: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > Never run boards through a dishwasher! Oh no, not this thread again :) > This has got to be one of the most insane ideas I've ever heard. Well, I guess I must be insane then, as I've washed 1000s of boards over the years without a single failure. Paper labels on the other hand, don't like water very much. > Commercial PCB's do get washed, but only after the water has been > deionized with some rather expensive and high maintainance equipment. Don't assume that. > I'm quite sure that manufacturers don't go through the expense of > maintaining this gear if your maytag washer could do the job. Most manufacturers have board washers that are the equivalent of large commercial dishwashers, often outfitted with special racks or conveyor belts. If a typical maytag would be large enough to hold the volume of boards produced, and hold up to 24/7 use, I bet they would use one, as the cost would be considerably lower. > Lots of domestic water supplies have 'hard water' and.or high mineral > content that will dammage or destroy your boards. Maybe not while > they are in the washer, but corrosion may set in later. Soft water is much worse, I assure you. It usually contains salt or alkaline additives which in large amounts can attack certain metal alloys. (I would not wash boards from a supply with an in-line water softener, but public water is generally ok.) -Toth From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 28 12:00:47 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: References: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228115453.02d5df60@127.0.0.1> For those who don't believe that it's okay - prove it to yourself. Here's how: 1) Pick a dirty, filthy board that somehow seems to work, and is worth very little to you 2) Make sure it doesn't have: a) relays b) large capacitors c) transformers d) iron-core inductors e) fragile labels or core memory 3) put it in your dishwasher by itself, with no detergent (just for testing), and turn off the plate warmer and dryer 4) wash it! 5) shake off excess water after cycle finishes 6) clean - isn't it? 6) hang up to dry indoors for several days 7) plug it in. Works, doesn't it?!! And clean, too !!!!! Don't take our words for it. Try it!!!! You'll be amazed at how clean the boards get, with so little effort on your part. - Matt At 11:22 AM 12/28/2001 -0600, you wrote: >On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > Never run boards through a dishwasher! > >Oh no, not this thread again :) Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Dec 28 19:42:36 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) References: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228115453.02d5df60@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3C2D1F8C.3FFD2F46@tiac.net> Tried it. It toasted an EPROM, and a 68000N-10 in a plcc package. The heat is simply too high. Also, older boards often use TTL devices in the grey package that is not properly passivated. These often go bad without running them through a dish washer. For every person on the list who can look at a given board and decide what components may withstand this treatment, there is another who will not know a TCXO from any other oscillator, or some other component that will not stand this abuse (many won't, and only some of them are listed below), and dammage something. Matthew Sell wrote: > For those who don't believe that it's okay - prove it to yourself. Here's how: > > 1) Pick a dirty, filthy board that somehow seems to work, and is worth very > little to you > 2) Make sure it doesn't have: > > a) relays > b) large capacitors > c) transformers > d) iron-core inductors > e) fragile labels or core memory > > 3) put it in your dishwasher by itself, with no detergent (just for > testing), and turn off the plate warmer and dryer > 4) wash it! > 5) shake off excess water after cycle finishes > 6) clean - isn't it? > 6) hang up to dry indoors for several days > 7) plug it in. Works, doesn't it?!! And clean, too !!!!! > > Don't take our words for it. Try it!!!! You'll be amazed at how clean the > boards get, with so little effort on your part. > > - Matt > > At 11:22 AM 12/28/2001 -0600, you wrote: > >On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > > Never run boards through a dishwasher! > > > >Oh no, not this thread again :) > > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com > (281) 296-6066 > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From edick at idcomm.com Fri Dec 28 14:05:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) References: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228115453.02d5df60@127.0.0.1> <3C2D1F8C.3FFD2F46@tiac.net> Message-ID: <001701c18fdb$0c39aa00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you can't limit the temperature in your dishwasher to less than the maximum ambient storage temperature of the IC's on the board, I know of no dishwasher that will exceed typical commercial limits for such devices unless you use a high-heat setting or run the dry cycle. I've done this for years and, given a cycle with which to clean the garbage out of the dishwasher, I've never regretted it. I can imagine some boards being really hard to clean out if you wash dishes without first rinsing off the food, though. In the case of VERY dirty boards, e.g. those that have been sitting outdoors for multiple years, it's advisable to remove the plastic tops of sockets, if they're present, so the dirt will be washed out from under them. If you can't do that, you're on your own. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 1:42 AM Subject: Re: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) > Tried it. > > It toasted an EPROM, and a 68000N-10 in a plcc package. > > The heat is simply too high. > > Also, older boards often use TTL devices in the grey package that is not > properly passivated. These often go bad without running them through > a dish washer. > > For every person on the list who can look at a given board and decide > what components may withstand this treatment, there is another who will > not know a TCXO from any other oscillator, or some other component that > will not stand this abuse (many won't, and only some of them are listed below), > and dammage something. > > > > Matthew Sell wrote: > > > For those who don't believe that it's okay - prove it to yourself. Here's how: > > > > 1) Pick a dirty, filthy board that somehow seems to work, and is worth very > > little to you > > 2) Make sure it doesn't have: > > > > a) relays > > b) large capacitors > > c) transformers > > d) iron-core inductors > > e) fragile labels or core memory > > > > 3) put it in your dishwasher by itself, with no detergent (just for > > testing), and turn off the plate warmer and dryer > > 4) wash it! > > 5) shake off excess water after cycle finishes > > 6) clean - isn't it? > > 6) hang up to dry indoors for several days > > 7) plug it in. Works, doesn't it?!! And clean, too !!!!! > > > > Don't take our words for it. Try it!!!! You'll be amazed at how clean the > > boards get, with so little effort on your part. > > > > - Matt > > > > At 11:22 AM 12/28/2001 -0600, you wrote: > > >On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > > > > Never run boards through a dishwasher! > > > > > >Oh no, not this thread again :) > > > > Matthew Sell > > Programmer > > On Time Support, Inc. > > www.ontimesupport.com > > (281) 296-6066 > > > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... > > From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 28 21:27:09 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <3C2D1F8C.3FFD2F46@tiac.net> References: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228115453.02d5df60@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228212200.026e0960@127.0.0.1> How high of a temperature is your water???!!!!! The normal *operating* range, let alone the *storage* temperature range for just about all electronic components is much higher than what a human being can take a bath with. As far as the 68000 goes, I was personally involved with the construction of a board which used an old 68000 series processor, and we washed those boards in a commercial Hobart dishwasher. .... using city water.... Oh well. I will continue to use the dishwasher. I've done it on very expensive boards, including ones with 10MHz TCXO's. I even calibrated TCXO's after boardwashing using hot water. No problems ever observed - I personally calibrated a few hundred of them. Don't forget - these components also went through wave soldering.... sometimes the peak temperature after wave soldering was higher than the washing afterwards. - Matt At 08:42 PM 12/28/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Tried it. > >It toasted an EPROM, and a 68000N-10 in a plcc package. > >The heat is simply too high. > >Also, older boards often use TTL devices in the grey package that is not >properly passivated. These often go bad without running them through >a dish washer. > >For every person on the list who can look at a given board and decide >what components may withstand this treatment, there is another who will >not know a TCXO from any other oscillator, or some other component that >will not stand this abuse (many won't, and only some of them are listed >below), >and dammage something. > > > >Matthew Sell wrote: > > > For those who don't believe that it's okay - prove it to yourself. > Here's how: > > > > 1) Pick a dirty, filthy board that somehow seems to work, and is worth very > > little to you > > 2) Make sure it doesn't have: > > > > a) relays > > b) large capacitors > > c) transformers > > d) iron-core inductors > > e) fragile labels or core memory > > > > 3) put it in your dishwasher by itself, with no detergent (just for > > testing), and turn off the plate warmer and dryer > > 4) wash it! > > 5) shake off excess water after cycle finishes > > 6) clean - isn't it? > > 6) hang up to dry indoors for several days > > 7) plug it in. Works, doesn't it?!! And clean, too !!!!! > > > > Don't take our words for it. Try it!!!! You'll be amazed at how clean the > > boards get, with so little effort on your part. > > > > - Matt > > > > At 11:22 AM 12/28/2001 -0600, you wrote: > > >On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > > > > Never run boards through a dishwasher! > > > > > >Oh no, not this thread again :) > > > > Matthew Sell > > Programmer > > On Time Support, Inc. > > www.ontimesupport.com > > (281) 296-6066 > > > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 28 13:10:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: One More PCB Dishwasher Question In-Reply-To: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > Never run boards through a dishwasher! > > This has got to be one of the most insane ideas I've ever heard. > > Commercial PCB's do get washed, but only after the water has > been deionized with some rather expensive and high maintainance > equipment. > > I'm quite sure that manufacturers don't go through the expense of > maintaining > this gear if your maytag washer could do the job. Actually, the IBM Interconnect Manufacturing Process Development Lab uses a Whirlpool, not a Maytag. > Lots of domestic water supplies have 'hard water' and.or high mineral > content > that will dammage or destroy your boards. Maybe not while they are in > the > washer, but corrosion may set in later. I'm sure that filtering the water wouldn't hurt, but even DI water will damage your board if you don't remove it from the board quickly. I.E. don't air-dry the board. Peace... Sridhar From wilby98 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 11:43:03 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de In-Reply-To: <3C2C5145.853310FC@xs4all.nl>; from quapla@xs4all.nl on Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 12:02:29PM +0100 References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <3C2C5145.853310FC@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20011228184303.A6849@xs4all.nl> Thank you for taking the time to do the translation. As it turned out the bidding went too high for me. It's too bad because I dont often see items like this offered that often here in Europe. If this is an example of the prices an item sells for on eBay, I think I will have to depend on other means of finding an affordable, classic. Bill Amsterdam, NL On Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 12:02:29PM +0100, The Wanderer wrote: > Hi, > > The text says > > 2 VAX-VMS computers Digital 4000-200 > > Model 660-QR) with the following config: > 16Mb ram, KA660-AA cpu, 200MB HD, 296 MB TK70 tapeunit & network > connection. > > With it belongs 2 VT420 terminals and console switch as well as all the > necessary > cabling. This machine is from the 89/90 era and is a solid machine. > Both machines were running until the middle of last year as a production > cluster > under VMS control. It can however also run NetBSD. > > picture From ccraft at springsips.com Fri Dec 28 12:42:21 2001 From: ccraft at springsips.com (Chris Craft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-500 travails... In-Reply-To: <20011228184303.A6849@xs4all.nl> References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <3C2C5145.853310FC@xs4all.nl> <20011228184303.A6849@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <01122811422103.17304@ccraft.springsips.com> I was lucky enough to be given a VAX 4k500, but am now looking for advice on how to get an os installed... NetBSD 5.1.2 halts trying to boot from the CD, right after loading the kernel, I'm slogging around in mopd.c and friends trying to find out why, when moptrace tells me everything's getting there OK, that mopd says it's getting protocol request "9100" instead of "6001", and I'm still waiting on Encompass/DECUS-US to get my membership processed so I can get license keys for VMS. (Sigh!) Anyone have advice/clues/pointers? Frustrated VAXherd in the US, Chris. On Friday 28 December 2001 10:43 am, you wrote: (to classiccmp) > Thank you for taking the time to do the translation. As it > turned out the bidding went too high for me. It's too > bad because I dont often see items like this offered > that often here in Europe. If this is an example > of the prices an item sells for on eBay, I think I > will have to depend on other means of finding an > affordable, classic. > > Bill > Amsterdam, NL <<>> From wilby98 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 13:26:48 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-500 travails... In-Reply-To: <01122811422103.17304@ccraft.springsips.com>; from ccraft@springsips.com on Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 11:42:21AM -0700 References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <3C2C5145.853310FC@xs4all.nl> <20011228184303.A6849@xs4all.nl> <01122811422103.17304@ccraft.springsips.com> Message-ID: <20011228202648.A19388@xs4all.nl> I have no practical experience in OS's for VAX's however I have seen many references to OpenVMS. NetBSD is probably a good choise as well but wouldn't OpenVMS be more "native" to the machine? Again, I am only suggesting this based on what I have seen turn up in the archives and at various sites. Bill Amsterdam, NL On Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 11:42:21AM -0700, Chris Craft wrote: > I was lucky enough to be given a VAX 4k500, but am now looking for advice on > how to get an os installed... NetBSD 5.1.2 halts trying to boot from the CD, > right after loading the kernel, I'm slogging around in mopd.c and friends > trying to find out why, when moptrace tells me everything's getting there OK, > that mopd says it's getting protocol request "9100" instead of "6001", and > I'm still waiting on Encompass/DECUS-US to get my membership processed so I > can get license keys for VMS. (Sigh!) > > Anyone have advice/clues/pointers? From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 28 14:10:59 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-500 travails... References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <3C2C5145.853310FC@xs4all.nl> <20011228184303.A6849@xs4all.nl> <01122811422103.17304@ccraft.springsips.com> Message-ID: <007101c18fdb$c4982680$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I'm still waiting on Encompass/DECUS-US to get my membership > processed so I can get license keys for VMS. (Sigh!) > Anyone have advice/clues/pointers? When did you first make the request to Encompass? Did you send a followup eMail after 2 weeks or so? Chuck McM informed us on list 26-Nov that the free program might be going out. Perhaps that's what's going on. : ( John A. From ccraft at springsips.com Fri Dec 28 15:03:57 2001 From: ccraft at springsips.com (Chris Craft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: DECUS/Encompass (Was: Re: VAX 4000-500 travails...) In-Reply-To: <007101c18fdb$c4982680$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <01122811422103.17304@ccraft.springsips.com> <007101c18fdb$c4982680$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <01122814035705.17304@ccraft.springsips.com> I ended up calling... the nice lady said that everything submitted up to 7 December was processed, but then she found my submission from October. :P There's still a free membership (everything's changing as of 1 Jan.), and she assured me that the Hobbyist Program would still exist and be available to the new free "Associate" member level. *Sigh* Whatever. I've been promised (again) that my membership will be processed by next Friday. We'll see. -Chris. On Friday 28 December 2001 01:10 pm, you wrote: > > I'm still waiting on Encompass/DECUS-US to get my membership > > processed so I can get license keys for VMS. (Sigh!) > > Anyone have advice/clues/pointers? > > When did you first make the request to Encompass? > Did you send a followup eMail after 2 weeks or so? > Chuck McM informed us on list 26-Nov that the free > program might be going out. Perhaps that's what's going on. > > : ( > > John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 28 16:34:49 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: DECUS/Encompass (Was: Re: VAX 4000-500 travails...) In-Reply-To: <01122814035705.17304@ccraft.springsips.com> from "Chris Craft" at Dec 28, 2001 02:03:57 PM Message-ID: <200112282234.fBSMYn609618@shell1.aracnet.com> > There's still a free membership (everything's changing as of 1 Jan.), and she > assured me that the Hobbyist Program would still exist and be available to > the new free "Associate" member level. *Sigh* Whatever. I've been promised That's good news, I know there has been some concern over this. Of course I'm not totally convinced that the Montagar webpage for getting License PAKs cares if you've a current membership ID or not, just that you have one. Zane From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 28 11:50:19 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Power Series Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E03D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] > What Mark is saying is that there's at least two different kinds of > rendering, and people sometimes chose SGIs for one reason but > not the necessarily the other. One, you might like to have > fast processors and hardware acceleration of textured polygons > for the real-time view of your 3D data. Example users would > include military simulation, virtual reality, flight simulators, etc. True enough. Also true that these days, SGI-style graphics hardware is usually more necessary for the "scientific visualization" crowd, than for animation. Most animation I've seen done recently was (at least in bulk) rendered non-real-time, probably on a render-farm of some kind. > The second group, 3D computer animators making special effects > and movies, they not only need the real-time stuff during > the modeling stage, but they also appreciated the raw horsepower > when it came to rendering, which is usually a purely software-based > operation. Of course, originally, SGI (and possibly Intergraph) was the only game in town ;) These days other manufacturers have graphics that may be "good enough," especially if you can't afford an (what is it now?) "Infinite Reality 2," or the like. > If you pick up an old SGI box, if you were extremely lucky > you might get an old animation package that does the modeling > and the rendering. They were usually keyed to the SGI box's > unique CPU ID. You might get the CDs but no key, and you're > out of luck. Unless you have a debugger and some spare time ;) > I must remind the younger folks out there that as recently > as less than ten years ago, you'd see animators taking out > six-figure loans to buy the SGI and software they needed to > run their shop, for just one or two animators. :-) Again, SGI was likely the only thing you could get as recently as "less than ten years ago" that had the graphics power for even the "modeling" stage. People have begun to take 3d acceleration for granted now that they have their Matrox GWhiz 5, or their Nvidia TTL 3, or whatever. :) Nobody stops to think where people got the power to do the kinds of operations for which these things allow you to use a standard (read: piece of junk ;) intel peesee (and more) several years past. > On the other hand, SGI distributed lots and lots of source > code and demos, and had a few unkeyed applications that may > run on the box you got if you get the CDs. These include > real-time interactive demos and apps. They'd give away > these annual "Hot Mix" CDs at trade shows by the stack. > I have a bunch I should eBay someday. Got one or two, myself, and they're amusing if nothing else. I've also downloaded the "FSN" filemanager from SGIs FTP site, which is entertaining. (for the uninitiated, this is the 3d file-manager that they showed in "Jurassic Park." > Given that SGI Indy boxes are going for less than $100 these > days, if you ever had an itch to see what they were all about, > you no longer have any excuses. Personally, I wouldn't get an Indy with 8-bit graphics if I could help it, which means you'd pay slightly more than 100 in most cases, but that's still not bad at all. On the other hand, Indys don't have much graphics horsepower. I'd recommend something with at least a Z-Buffer, myself. Indigo2 is a really good deal these days. ... and let's face it, a graphics subsystem isn't a graphics subsystem unless it takes at least three boards ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Dec 28 11:25:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: Power Series In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E03D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E03D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <01Dec28.134010est.119084@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Again, SGI was likely the only thing you could get as recently as "less than >ten years ago" that had the graphics power for even the "modeling" stage. >People have begun to take 3d acceleration for granted now that they have >their Matrox GWhiz 5, or their Nvidia TTL 3, or whatever. :) Nobody stops >to think where people got the power to do the kinds of operations for which >these things allow you to use a standard (read: piece of junk ;) intel >peesee (and more) several years past. Of course, Amiga's running Imagine or Lightwave 3D have been used for years to do serious rendering and animation, including as part of large render farms. They've largely fallen out of favor at this point due to their age, but well into the 90's they were used quite a bit, including a number of high-profile products and films. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 28 12:15:09 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: I bought eBay! In-Reply-To: <3C2BA93D.D9F80CE3@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben Franchuk at "Dec 27, 1 04:05:33 pm" Message-ID: <200112281815.KAA25454@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/PC270014.JPG > > I couldn't resist ;) > > (For those without the benefit of a GWB, it's a photo of a game I just > > bought at the toy store called "eBay Electronic-Talking Auction Game" :) > ** Excuse me while I throw UP! ** Gag. Me three. Hey, my mostly-digested Egg McMuffin and Dr. Pepper even has the eBay colours. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Where there's a will, there's a probate. ----------------------------------- From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Dec 28 12:19:42 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: WYSE terminals Message-ID: >I have a WYSE terminal with a modular keyboard receptacle, and a keyboard >with a DIN-ish plug. Any chance I can crimp a modular end on it and use it? I don't know about the terminals, but I have a Wyse 386 that was originally designed to use a modular RJ-11 keyboard plug. Someplace I have an adaptor that converts it to a DIN-5 for use with an AT keyboard (moves the 4 RJ pins, and has another wire that clips to the computer frame to provide ground). If it is of any help, I am sure I can find the adaptor and tell you the pinout for it. -c From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Dec 28 13:53:11 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: WYSE terminals Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E043@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] > I don't know about the terminals, but I have a Wyse 386 that was > originally designed to use a modular RJ-11 keyboard plug. Someplace I > have an adaptor that converts it to a DIN-5 for use with an > AT keyboard > (moves the 4 RJ pins, and has another wire that clips to the computer > frame to provide ground). > If it is of any help, I am sure I can find the adaptor and > tell you the > pinout for it. It might help. Assuming the modular keyboards are the same. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Dec 28 15:01:10 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:50 2005 Subject: WYSE terminals Message-ID: >It might help. Assuming the modular keyboards are the same. :) Sorry for my very crude drawing. The RJ has a cable hanging off it that ties to CPU chassis for ground, so the RJ side really ends up with 5 connectors (4 in the plug, plus 1 for tail) -chris From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 28 12:51:17 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software Message-ID: Specifically, dBase 5 and dBase Compiler. Peace... Sridhar From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 28 13:18:45 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software In-Reply-To: from "Boatman on the River of Suck" at Dec 28, 01 01:51:17 pm Message-ID: <200112281918.OAA23763@wordstock.com> HA! :-D I programmed in dBase a _long_ time ago... I did some work for the compnay my dad works for. Next time I talk to him I will ask if *maybe* they still have it somewhere.. They also used to use GEM (hmm... I remember the pixels being really blocky!) and DisplayWrite 4 > > > Specifically, dBase 5 and dBase Compiler. > > Peace... Sridhar > > From foo at siconic.com Fri Dec 28 19:32:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > Specifically, dBase 5 and dBase Compiler. dBase 5? Was there ever such a beast? I have the FoxPro 2.6 (for DOS) developer kit if you'd rather do it with that (I recommend it). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From ernestls at attbi.com Fri Dec 28 20:08:28 2001 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Multitech Micro Professor III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have one of these computers but no keyboard for it. If anyone has a keyboard, or the whole computer that they might be willing to sell or trade -or even the pin-outs for the keyboard connection on the computer, please contact me. Thanks. Ernest ernestls@attbi.com From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 28 21:41:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > Specifically, dBase 5 and dBase Compiler. > > dBase 5? Was there ever such a beast? I have the FoxPro 2.6 (for DOS) > developer kit if you'd rather do it with that (I recommend it). Yup, there indeed was a dBase 5. I can't do it in anything else, because the software was written by me years ago, and it relies on some commercial extension libraries that I still have the disks for. If I were writing this from scratch, I would do it on S/390 with DB/2 8-) Peace... Sridhar From spedraja at ono.com Fri Dec 28 13:30:53 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) Message-ID: <009101c18fd6$2a5e9720$0101a8c0@gw.cavorita.net> I can't believe it. This success suppose to me to change some of my thinkings about the life, the religion and other matters. By example: Santa Claus exists ? Etcetera. But, by the moment, in case this driver works, I can put you in my list of fortunate with one bottle of Red Wine from Spain, variety Rioja. Thanks and Greetings Sergio -----Mensaje original----- De: Pete Turnbull Para: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Fecha: viernes, 28 de diciembre de 2001 21:04 Asunto: Re: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) >On Jan 6, 16:33, SP wrote: > ^^^^^^ >Someone needs to set their clock... it was Dec 22, actually > >> One Dilog DQ614 driver disk for RT-11. I have >> one of these boards inoperative because I can't >> configure it. > >Was it Zane or Ethan who was also looking for this? > >Well, it's a bit late, but I have an extra Christmas present for you guys. > You'll find the diagnostic and formatter program, along with a diagram of >the board, and the jumper tables, at > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DQ614/ > >It would have been done on Christmas Eve, but my RX02 drives needed a >severe talking to, along with the 11/23 they are on. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From djenner at earthlink.net Fri Dec 28 15:09:48 2001 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: DQ614: was Re: What did you ask "Santa" ... References: <009101c18fd6$2a5e9720$0101a8c0@gw.cavorita.net> Message-ID: <3C2CDF9C.4FAD2671@earthlink.net> I'm looking for a working DQ614. I'd be glad to toss in a bottle of a good Washington state wine for anyone who can come up with one. :) Dave SP wrote: > > I can't believe it. > > This success suppose to me to change some of my > thinkings about the life, the religion and other matters. > By example: Santa Claus exists ? Etcetera. > > But, by the moment, in case this driver works, I can put > you in my list of fortunate with one bottle of Red Wine > from Spain, variety Rioja. > > Thanks and Greetings > > Sergio > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Pete Turnbull > Para: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Fecha: viernes, 28 de diciembre de 2001 21:04 > Asunto: Re: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) > > >On Jan 6, 16:33, SP wrote: > > ^^^^^^ > >Someone needs to set their clock... it was Dec 22, actually > > > >> One Dilog DQ614 driver disk for RT-11. I have > >> one of these boards inoperative because I can't > >> configure it. > > > >Was it Zane or Ethan who was also looking for this? > > > >Well, it's a bit late, but I have an extra Christmas present for you guys. > > You'll find the diagnostic and formatter program, along with a diagram of > >the board, and the jumper tables, at > > > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DQ614/ > > > >It would have been done on Christmas Eve, but my RX02 drives needed a > >severe talking to, along with the 11/23 they are on. > > > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Dec 28 13:45:17 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: "SP" "RE: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : )" (Jan 6, 16:33) References: <00f801a8ec10$251fefc0$3f912a3e@gw.cavorita.net> Message-ID: <10112281945.ZM8231@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 6, 16:33, SP wrote: ^^^^^^ Someone needs to set their clock... it was Dec 22, actually > One Dilog DQ614 driver disk for RT-11. I have > one of these boards inoperative because I can't > configure it. Was it Zane or Ethan who was also looking for this? Well, it's a bit late, but I have an extra Christmas present for you guys. You'll find the diagnostic and formatter program, along with a diagram of the board, and the jumper tables, at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DQ614/ It would have been done on Christmas Eve, but my RX02 drives needed a severe talking to, along with the 11/23 they are on. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ubertechnoid at Home.com Fri Dec 28 13:59:48 2001 From: ubertechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Aim65 Haul/housecleaning References: Message-ID: <002101c18fda$349de4d0$3700a8c0@benchbox> I'ts two pages and both are blank right? Like the Unitarian Bible? LMAO. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Regards, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard A. Cini, Jr." To: "ClassCompList" Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 2:54 PM Subject: Aim65 Haul/housecleaning * Inside Commodore DOS (Immers) From ubertechnoid at Home.com Fri Dec 28 14:05:46 2001 From: ubertechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: 720k floppy References: Message-ID: <002f01c18fdb$09ebc260$3700a8c0@benchbox> I use 1.44mb disks converted to 720k (a piece of scotch tape or electrical tape) on my Atari ST all the time. They work ***JUST*** long enough to move data between the PC and the ST. The disks look the same etc, but the media (coating) is different enough for them not to work reliably. I think this stuff is defined in OARSTEADs or something like that? So, if you just need a quick floppy, go right ahead, but expect a lifespan of minutes or hours at best. Regards, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 3:39 PM Subject: Re: 720k floppy > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you simply cover the hole > >(with tape) on a 1.44mb floppy to make a 720 mb diskette? > >Obvisously the hole is the one that isn't the write protect > >one (i.e. doesn't have the slide tab). > > I can tell you, ignoring all the "technical" issues, based purely on > experience... this is a BAD idea. It will work... for a while, but you > are almost guarenteed that the disk will fail eventually. I don't have > ANY that have worked long term... and I still do this trick from time to > time when I need a 720k disk briefly... it is always easier for me to > just convert a 1.44 then it is for me to dig out a 720k. > > They usually work long enough for me to copy a file to and from the > disk... but within a few reads and writes, it will die. Reformatting will > refresh it for a few more reads and writes... but again, it will die > shortly. > > So if your data is important, DON'T do this. > > There are companies that still sell DD disks brand new, I would just hunt > one down, and buy a bunch. > > -c > From ubertechnoid at Home.com Fri Dec 28 14:10:06 2001 From: ubertechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? References: Message-ID: <004001c18fdb$a51178c0$3700a8c0@benchbox> A few months ago I'd have said there was no such thing as an isa 100mb nic but a friend of mine has a boxfull of HP 10/100 isa nics in her office closet. They work ok on our 10mb lan but don't give even the performance of my PCI 10/100 nic in 10mb mode. I can see a reason for them if you have a 100mb only net (we have an HP hub not in use right now because it is 100mb ONLY) soooo. Regards, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 10:33 PM Subject: RE: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? > On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Tothwolf wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Ernest wrote: > > > > > > > > There were very few *ISA* 10/100 NICs ever made. The 3C515 is one of > > > > > them. > > > > > > I don't really consider these cards to be hard to find, you just won't > > > find them in most used computer shops. The 515 isn't too popular, since > > > there isn't much gain with it compared to a less expensive 509. > > > > Much gain? 10BaseT vs 10/100? Seems like a win to me. The only real > > problem is that you can't saturate a 100mbps line from an ISA card. > > The ISA bus can't handle anywhere near the full 100mb/s bandwith, so these > cards throttle the bandwith considerably. From personal experience in > testing tons of different cards on my lan, I just don't see enough of a > throughput difference when comparing the 509 and 515 to justify the extra > cost. This is especially true when the second generation 509 cards can be > had for less than $5 easily, and have much better driver support. > > > As I mentioned in my first post, I think the only real need for one is > > if you find yourself on a 100BaseT *only* network. > > That would be about the only use for them that I can think of. Most modern > 100mb/s networks are switched and support N-way autonegotiation (and > 10mb/s), so there just isn't much use for a 100mb/s ISA nic anymore. > > -Toth > > From ubertechnoid at Home.com Fri Dec 28 14:18:36 2001 From: ubertechnoid at Home.com (UberTechnoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions References: <3C236A49.EDF40368@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <006301c18fdc$d5000550$3700a8c0@benchbox> I didn't bother with the bracket. Just hung a couple 3.5" scsi drive in it and try to remember that they aren't secured when I move. So far so good. Regards, Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "emanuel stiebler" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 11:58 AM Subject: Re: VS4000 hardware questions > Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > Well, I made room on my bench, opened up my grubby, new-to-me 4000/60, > > and it only has one of the two RZ24 drives my partner paid for. I've > > fired off email to the vendor asking him to ship the drive and mounting > > hardware, but I don't expect that he'll have either. > > What does DEC call the flat metal plate that the hard disk bolts onto? > > "Mounting bracket"? > > No clue how they call it, but it is "74-41128-something" and around $7. > > cheers From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 28 16:16:03 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: VS4000 hardware questions In-Reply-To: <006301c18fdc$d5000550$3700a8c0@benchbox> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, UberTechnoid wrote: > I didn't bother with the bracket. Just hung a couple 3.5" scsi drive in it > and try to remember that they aren't secured when I move. So far so good. > Yup. Actually, I have one for a template, scroll saws and a Foredom flex-shaft tool, and that sled would be way easy to fab. That's why I used gardener's tape. Doc From darek-ss at wp.pl Fri Dec 28 16:27:50 2001 From: darek-ss at wp.pl (Darek s) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: NCD 88k Boot monitor Message-ID: <3c2cf1e6e43a7@wp.pl> Hi, I've got recently 2 old, but great :-) NCD Xstations 88k & 88kP6 based on Motorola 88100 processor. Unfortunately theirs network cards are without Boot Manager EPROMS ... Does anyone could help me and tell where I can find such EPROM or or just the image file which I can use to program one ? BM from HMX & HMXPro doesn't work because it is made for R4xxx processor. Darek ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Zapro? znajomych na czata! Wy?lij SMSa z nowego czata WP! Czat.wp.pl - Jedyny czat z ludzk? twarz? < http://czat.wp.pl > From darek-ss at wp.pl Fri Dec 28 17:04:05 2001 From: darek-ss at wp.pl (Darek s) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: NCD 88k Boot monitor Message-ID: <3c2cfa652e2c5@wp.pl> Hi, I've got recently 2 old, but very good NCD Xstations 88k & 88kP6 based on Motorola 88100 processor. It looks great, much better than what they are selling know :-) But unfortunately they are without Boot Manager EPROMS ... Does anyone could help me and tell where I can find such EPROM or just the image file which I can use to program one ? As far as I know BM from HMX & HMXPro doesn't work because it is made for R4xxx processor. Darek ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Tylko przez Nowy Kontakt porozmawiasz przez inne komunikatory! Poznaj 100mln nowych znajomych! Kliknij! < http://kontakt.wp.pl > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 28 16:30:55 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: DQ614: was Re: What did you ask "Santa" ... In-Reply-To: from "David C. Jenner" at Dec 28, 2001 01:09:48 PM Message-ID: <200112282230.fBSMUt709544@shell1.aracnet.com> > I can't believe it. > > This success suppose to me to change some of my > thinkings about the life, the religion and other matters. > By example: Santa Claus exists ? Etcetera. I'll Second that!!! > >> One Dilog DQ614 driver disk for RT-11. I have > >> one of these boards inoperative because I can't > >> configure it. > > > >Was it Zane or Ethan who was also looking for this? Only for a few years :^) > >Well, it's a bit late, but I have an extra Christmas present for you guys. > > You'll find the diagnostic and formatter program, along with a diagram of > >the board, and the jumper tables, at > > > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DQ614/ Amazing! Now the question is, does anyone know which HD's will work with this? I just might have to go digging through storage in the very near future! The other question is, once the disk is formated, does it matter what you use for an OS on it, or does it need to be RT-11? I was hoping to be able to use this board for OS's that expect RL02's instead of MSCP disks. Zane From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Dec 28 17:10:39 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters Message-ID: <3C2C8B6F.10946.404454@localhost> There was an analog CPU meter on a PDP 11/70 in the Computer Graphics Lab at UC San Francisco back in the late 70's. The meter was mounted in the middle of a large black & beige plastic rack fill-in plate. I thought it was hilarious, and very cool. It has to be an analog meter. I dimly remember seeing the schematic. The meter was wired up as a dwell meter, and hooked up to some signal in the CPU that indicated that it was running, or at least running usefully. I can't remember if it was the user-mode bit, or "not wait". IIRC Unix V7 ran an idle process so the CPU never waited. I think it was the user-mode bit. Anyway, the circuit was simple. They buffered the CPU signal, smoothed it through a resistor and a capacitor, and that drove the panel meter. You just have to work out the appropriate values for the series resistor, capacitor and load resistor to get appropriate scaling and timing. I've always wanted one... wonder if there's an appropriate pin to monitor on a TBird? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 28 19:15:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: add-on CPU load meters In-Reply-To: <3C2C8B6F.10946.404454@localhost> from "Brian Knittel" at Dec 28, 1 03:10:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1730 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011229/9e80d0e9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 28 17:48:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? In-Reply-To: <00a501c18f68$2c49f660$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Dec 27, 1 10:23:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011228/6ada5175/attachment.ksh From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 28 19:12:37 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have the opportunity to acquire a Decstation VT78 (basically a PDP-8 > > crammed into a VT52 terminal) but the price seems a bit steep. I've > > been looking for one for abut 2 years and this is the first one I've > > come across. It doesn't include the cart or any drives. Any thoughts > > on how high I should go? > > How much do you want it, and more importantly how much can you afford? Erzackly. In my private universe, the value/price criteria are wildly different for toys & collections than for tools or "inventory". Obviously, I'm not going to pay the $500 they're asking in the newsgroups for a used XBox when I can go to WalMart and buy one for $299 new. (OK, I'm not paying the $299 either. Or $2.99) But the toys we play with aren't Walmart items, and a lot of times future availability is uncertain at best. For me the equation is something like: new_value/1000 * months_looking * cool_factor = $willing_to_pay Doc From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Dec 28 21:33:02 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? References: Message-ID: <005101c19019$85a5c3e0$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> > On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > I have the opportunity to acquire a Decstation VT78 (basically a PDP-8 > > > crammed into a VT52 terminal) but the price seems a bit steep. I've > > > been looking for one for abut 2 years and this is the first one I've > > > come across. It doesn't include the cart or any drives. Any thoughts > > > on how high I should go? > > > > How much do you want it, and more importantly how much can you afford? > > Erzackly. > In my private universe, the value/price criteria are wildly different > for toys & collections than for tools or "inventory". > Obviously, I'm not going to pay the $500 they're asking in the > newsgroups for a used XBox when I can go to WalMart and buy one for $299 > new. (OK, I'm not paying the $299 either. Or $2.99) > But the toys we play with aren't Walmart items, and a lot of times > future availability is uncertain at best. For me the equation is > something like: > > new_value/1000 * months_looking * cool_factor = $willing_to_pay > > Doc > I agree with all of the above. And, in answer to Tony, I want it a lot and I can afford the asking price. I just wanted to make sure that the item I perceived as being uncommon was not as common as dirt and normally sold for much less. Doc's formula seems to work well here. With a new value of $7995, and assuming the "cool factor" goes as high as 1.0 (and giving the VT78 a .9), I get the following: $7995/1000 * 30 *.9 = $216 -- and that's just about what's being asked. -W -W From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Dec 28 18:43:10 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: AVAILABLE-- PDP, DEC parts Message-ID: <00fa01c19001$cb7209a0$6b469280@Y5F3Q8> I talked to a man named Jon Ikoniak at temple.edu in PA not too long ago. Seems he has a large collection of old DEC gear he inherited from a predecessor. He said that a lot of the complete units have been gobbled up, but there are still a few racks left, and lots of drives and parts. They appear to be free. I was planning on posting his email address, but after the last virus I got from my buddy s.ring, contact me off-list for email or a voice number. ja ne Bob From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Dec 28 19:17:00 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: WTD: Amiga 1000 References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E01B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <001901c146a6$ba528450$4435ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <3C2D198C.C1224DCA@ccp.com> Curt Vendel wrote: > > Anyone have an Amiga 1000 in mint condition in an original box that is also > in mint condition looking to sell/trade? > > Curt Well I have one, in orginal box, with 1080 in original box, and alot of goodies. Hadn't thought about gettng rid of it, but just curious what you have to trade/offer? I have a SCSI controller (Supra), 2 Micvrobotics RAM expanders,a 1060 Sidecar, sevral 1010 floppies, RF Modulator, 1300 Genlock, If I decide it goes, ALL has to go with it. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From vance at ikickass.org Fri Dec 28 21:45:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: [rescue] Indigo sans front cover In-Reply-To: <094c01c1901a$e63ef680$0300a8c0@pullig.com> Message-ID: Speaking of doors to SGI's, I am in need of a front door to a deskside Onyx. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bruce Pullig wrote: > Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:42:53 -0600 > From: Bruce Pullig > Reply-To: rescue@sunhelp.org > To: SunRescue > Subject: Re: [rescue] Indigo sans front cover > > I found my Indigo front door. (has XS24 on the front) If you want it, let > me know where to ship it. > > Bruce > > -- > Bruce, Lorelei & Nathaniel Pullig > bruce@pullig.com > lorelei@pullig.com > nathaniel@pullig.com > www.pullig.com, www.pullig.org > _______________________________________________ > rescue maillist - rescue@sunhelp.org > http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue > From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 28 21:58:19 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: *DING* Unibus addressing - KZQSA SCSI adapter Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228214950.02890bd0@127.0.0.1> You DEC old-timers out there will probably chuckle at my little "discovery", but I'm posting my findings for us who are "DEC challenged".... Yesterday I was pulling my hair out trying to get my VAX 4000-500 to recognize an external RRD-43 CD-ROM that was attached to a KZQSA SCSI adapter. No matter what I did, it wouldn't recognize the fact that anything SCSI was connected. The problem turned out to be the address that the KZQSA was set to. It was set to address 761400, and the 4000 was reporting the card to be a DEFQA, which to even a DEC newbie as myself, was VERY wrong. A search through the "VMS wizard" archives at Compaq.com turned up the statement that the KZQSA was shipped with a default address of 761300. So I fiddled with the address jumpers and set it to 761300 and *voila*, the 4000 found the KZQSA. I hooked the external SCSI enclosure to the card, and it found the CD-ROM. It was able to boot VMS from the CD, and I'm on my way. Again, don't laugh too hard, I hope this message helps others who are "Unibus Ignorant".... - Matt Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Dec 28 22:07:32 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: *DUH* Unibus KZQSA - try QBUS Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228220632.0325fca8@127.0.0.1> Told you I was "DEC Challenged".... KZQSA is Q-BUS, not Unibus.... (sigh) - Matt Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 29 01:23:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed Message-ID: <3C2D6F74.5EC762F@internet1.net> The other day I found a SCO Open Desktop 2.0.0 media kit, on Qic24 tape. I don't have the correct drive...... I don't have any tape drive experience, actually. Does anybody have an unneeded Qic24 SCSI tape drive? I checked Ebay and I didn't see anything that I thought was what I needed. I wish this were on cd..... that would be easy! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 29 01:39:25 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: skins/doors (was: Re: [rescue] Indigo sans front cover) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Bruce Pullig wrote: > > > I found my Indigo front door. (has XS24 on the front) If you want it, let > > me know where to ship it. > > Speaking of doors to SGI's, I am in need of a front door to a deskside > Onyx. Guess I'll add to the "wanted" list too ;) I'm searching for a side skirt and skin for a SGI single tower 4D cube, the rear quarter skin for a SGI dual tower's power supply, and a front panel door for a VAX BA123. -Toth From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 29 01:58:44 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: SCO Open Desktop (was Re: Interesting find today!) References: <3C2C12E7.E87CDF29@internet1.net> <200112281412.fBSECA755552@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3C2D77B4.D24F042D@internet1.net> If I can find a scsi Qic24 tape drive, I plan on installing Open Desktop on my IBM Model 80 with Reply Powerboard and Kingston Turbochip. It runs Win98 fast enough. I suspect it'll run Unix just fine. I've got a Future Domain SCSI card OEMed for IBM, that is supported, and a Micropolis 4.3 gig SCSI drive. Hopefully someone on the list will dig up a tape drive for me that I can put into my PS/2 external SCSI case. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Frank McConnell wrote: > Open Desktop is a SCO/Motif flavored X GUI. If you really want to use > the GUI stuff, give it more oomph than Wollongong did: it was > painfully slow on that Compaq. Along about 1995 the system was being > used more for testing a "SCO ANSI" terminal emulation and I worked out > how to make it not start X on boot, and it continued running that way > (off in a corner with almost no attention) until April 1999 when > Attachmate shut down the former Wollongong offices. > > -Frank McConnell From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Dec 29 03:10:06 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: SCO Open Desktop (was Re: Interesting find today!) In-Reply-To: <3C2D77B4.D24F042D@internet1.net> References: <3C2C12E7.E87CDF29@internet1.net> <200112281412.fBSECA755552@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011229010948.0417d860@mail.zipcon.net> Qic24 would be a DC600 format tape, correct? At 02:58 AM 12/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >If I can find a scsi Qic24 tape drive, I plan on installing Open Desktop >on my IBM Model 80 with Reply Powerboard and Kingston Turbochip. It >runs Win98 fast enough. I suspect it'll run Unix just fine. I've got a >Future Domain SCSI card OEMed for IBM, that is supported, and a >Micropolis 4.3 gig SCSI drive. Hopefully someone on the list will dig >up a tape drive for me that I can put into my PS/2 external SCSI case. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Frank McConnell wrote: > > Open Desktop is a SCO/Motif flavored X GUI. If you really want to use > > the GUI stuff, give it more oomph than Wollongong did: it was > > painfully slow on that Compaq. Along about 1995 the system was being > > used more for testing a "SCO ANSI" terminal emulation and I worked out > > how to make it not start X on boot, and it continued running that way > > (off in a corner with almost no attention) until April 1999 when > > Attachmate shut down the former Wollongong offices. > > > > -Frank McConnell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 29 04:58:36 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : ) In-Reply-To: "SP" "RE: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : )" (Dec 28, 20:30) References: <009101c18fd6$2a5e9720$0101a8c0@gw.cavorita.net> Message-ID: <10112291058.ZM8727@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 28, 20:30, SP wrote: > I can't believe it. > > This success suppose to me to change some of my > thinkings about the life, the religion and other matters. > By example: Santa Claus exists ? Etcetera. > > But, by the moment, in case this driver works, I can put > you in my list of fortunate with one bottle of Red Wine > from Spain, variety Rioja. I hope it works -- I like Rioja! Seriously, let me know how you get on with it. Make sure the files you download are the right size. DQ614P.SAV should be exactly 27648 bytes and DL.SAV (which is the driver for RT-11 V5.04 *only*) should be exactly 2048 bytes. If they come out differently, either use Netscape on a Unix box to download, or ask me to put copies somewhere else for FTP. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 29 05:15:47 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: DQ614: was Re: What did you ask "Santa" ... In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: DQ614: was Re: What did you ask "Santa" ..." (Dec 28, 14:30) References: <200112282230.fBSMUt709544@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10112291115.ZM8744@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 28, 14:30, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Amazing! Now the question is, does anyone know which HD's will work with > this? I just might have to go digging through storage in the very near > future! The manual had a "non-exclusive" list of drives known to work; it suggested that just about anything should be OK. The formatter lets you set things like step pulse rate/seek time, heads, cylinders, etc. > The other question is, once the disk is formated, does it matter what you > use for an OS on it, or does it need to be RT-11? I was hoping to be able > to use this board for OS's that expect RL02's instead of MSCP disks. As far as I know, once the drive is formatted, it uses the standard driver. Assuming the formatting stores the setup details on the drive, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to use another OS afterwards. I no longer have my DQ614, so I can't test it for you :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Dec 29 07:13:41 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? References: Message-ID: <3C2DC185.2455E14D@verizon.net> Tony, > but then again if I'd not bought it and the other ones hadn't turned > up I'd be kicking myself now. So on balance, no I'm not complaining. There's the karma thing too. If you hadn't bought the first one, the other three might never have appeared either. Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I have the opportunity to acquire a Decstation VT78 (basically a PDP-8 > > crammed into a VT52 terminal) but the price seems a bit steep. I've > > been looking for one for abut 2 years and this is the first one I've > > come across. It doesn't include the cart or any drives. Any thoughts > > on how high I should go? > > How much do you want it, and more importantly how much can you afford? > > The only time I would worry about the exact 'value' of a machine is if I > intended to immediately sell it. Obviously if I wanted to do that then > I'd want to make a profit so I'd not want to pay as much for the machine > as I could sell it for. > > But if I wanted to program/modify/use the machine, then how much I'd be > prepared to pay would be ultimately governed by how much money I had > spare (and what other toys I was intending to spend some of that spare > money on). > > Suppose I spend $100 on a machine and later find out that somebody else > has got one for $50. I'm not going to be particularly annoyed. Why should > I be? I'm likely to get at least $100 worth of enjoyment from it. > > Another example : last year I managed to find a peripheral for one of my > machines that I was looking for. Although it didn't work, it looked to be > in reasonable condition, and I was happy to pay \pounds 25.00 for it. And > I did manage to repair it (1 afternoon's work and a simple IC). A month > or so later I was given another (working) one free of charge. And last > week I was given 2 more of them. Do I regret buying the first one? I > guess I complain that I didn't really need to spend that money, but then > again if I'd not bought it and the other ones hadn't turned up I'd be > kicking myself now. So on balance, no I'm not complaining. > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 29 13:42:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: How much should I pay for a Decstation VT78? In-Reply-To: <3C2DC185.2455E14D@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Dec 29, 1 08:13:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 555 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011229/14a0240a/attachment.ksh From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 29 07:18:03 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: *DING* Unibus addressing - KZQSA SCSI adapter In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228214950.02890bd0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote: > You DEC old-timers out there will probably chuckle at my little > "discovery", but I'm posting my findings for us who are "DEC challenged".... I'm chuckling... > The problem turned out to be the address that the KZQSA was set to. It was > set to address 761400, and the 4000 was reporting the card to be a DEFQA, > which to even a DEC newbie as myself, was VERY wrong. A search through the > "VMS wizard" archives at Compaq.com turned up the statement that the KZQSA > was shipped with a default address of 761300. I suspected as much, but I didn't have the expected address of a KZQSA at hand, so I couldn't check. > So I fiddled with the address jumpers and set it to 761300 and *voila*, the > 4000 found the KZQSA. I hooked the external SCSI enclosure to the card, and > it found the CD-ROM. > > It was able to boot VMS from the CD, and I'm on my way. Congratulations. > Again, don't laugh too hard, I hope this message helps others who are > "Unibus Ignorant".... *Ahem* The VAX4000-machines are just as Unibus ignorant as you are. They have Q-bus. :-) However, the addressing scheme DEC developed for autodetecting hardware on the Unibus was carried over to the Q-bus as well. And note that the KZQSA *might* be expected to live at another address if you have certain other pieces of hardware in the system. :-) I'm sure someone have the ruleset available online and can post an URL. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 29 13:40:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: *DING* Unibus addressing - KZQSA SCSI adapter In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228214950.02890bd0@127.0.0.1> from "Matthew Sell" at Dec 28, 1 09:58:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1369 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011229/e3985060/attachment.ksh From pechter at bg-tc-ppp505.monmouth.com Sat Dec 29 16:08:38 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp505.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: VAX/VMS and Sysgen addresses In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 29, 2001 07:40:36 pm" Message-ID: <200112292208.fBTM8c401429@bg-tc-ppp505.monmouth.com> > A little later on I was involved in moving some peripherals between Qbus > VAXen running VMS. I remember pulling an MSCP-type disk controller card > and having the tape drive disappear. Because when you had fewer disk > controllers then VMS expected to see other controllers at different > addresses. And there was no way to tell it 'Look you stupid thing, the > tape controller is at addrsss xxxxxxx'. I had to reset the address > switches/jumpers on just about every card in the system. > > > Again, don't laugh too hard, I hope this message helps others who are > > "Unibus Ignorant".... > > My only other worry is that surely your machine is a Q-bus box??? > > -tony Actually, Tony you could go into VAX/VMS sysgen and give the address and vectors for almost anything and have them work... the trick may have been with the MSCP type card which has a programmable vector which may have conflicted with something else, but in VMS 2.x-4.2 manual sysgens could allow almost any devices to coexist... Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From dittman at dittman.net Sat Dec 29 16:23:07 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: *DING* Unibus addressing - KZQSA SCSI adapter In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 29, 2001 07:40:36 PM Message-ID: <200112292223.fBTMN7410203@narnia.int.dittman.net> If anyone needs to know a handy way to find out the addresses that VMS will expect for a controller, and has a VAX running VMS (this won't work on OpenVMS Alpha), run SYSGEN and use the CONFIGURE command. For information on how to use the CONFIGURE command, check HELP. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 29 07:23:48 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: SCO Open Desktop (was Re: Interesting find today!) References: <3C2C12E7.E87CDF29@internet1.net> <200112281412.fBSECA755552@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20011229010948.0417d860@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3C2DC3E4.933FAE7B@internet1.net> Geoff, I downloaded a PDF file from Sprague Magnetics. I think you are correct from what I can tell (it's a little confusing to me, being a tape novice). Actually it says DC600a..... don't know if the extra "a" is important ot not. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Geoff Reed wrote: > > Qic24 would be a DC600 format tape, correct? > > At 02:58 AM 12/29/01 -0500, you wrote: > >If I can find a scsi Qic24 tape drive, I plan on installing Open Desktop > >on my IBM Model 80 with Reply Powerboard and Kingston Turbochip. It > >runs Win98 fast enough. I suspect it'll run Unix just fine. I've got a > >Future Domain SCSI card OEMed for IBM, that is supported, and a > >Micropolis 4.3 gig SCSI drive. Hopefully someone on the list will dig > >up a tape drive for me that I can put into my PS/2 external SCSI case. > > > >Chad Fernandez > >Michigan, USA > > > >Frank McConnell wrote: > > > Open Desktop is a SCO/Motif flavored X GUI. If you really want to use > > > the GUI stuff, give it more oomph than Wollongong did: it was > > > painfully slow on that Compaq. Along about 1995 the system was being > > > used more for testing a "SCO ANSI" terminal emulation and I worked out > > > how to make it not start X on boot, and it continued running that way > > > (off in a corner with almost no attention) until April 1999 when > > > Attachmate shut down the former Wollongong offices. > > > > > > -Frank McConnell From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 29 07:26:24 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de In-Reply-To: <001a01c18fbb$2d477a80$6b469280@Y5F3Q8>; from rschaefe@gcfn.org on Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 17:17:40 CET References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <20011228134343.Q10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <001a01c18fbb$2d477a80$6b469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: <20011229142624.W10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.28 17:17 Robert Schaefer wrote: > And, keep in mind that I got my VAX 6310 with 32MB ram, RA82, RA92, & > TU81+ for free, which is a much larger machine. I also got my MV4k200 for free. I know the person that bought the EPay MV4k200. I still can not belive that he is willing to pay that price. > (Bigger is better, right? :) Yes. That is the reason why I spend around EUR 100,- for a fat MV3500 with lots of RAM, disks and other peripherals in a "big boy" 19" rack. :-) > I forwarded a post to classiccmp from c.o.v regarding "Looking for new > home: VAX6620 + VAX6530 cluster" located in Zurich-- I saw that. A friend had already contacted the owner at that time but the machines where gone. Sad. A VAX 6[56].0 is a really nice machine. > I don't know how close that is to you, Around 4h by car? And an other friend lifes in .ch-land, only 1h.... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From wilby98 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 08:16:24 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de In-Reply-To: <20011229142624.W10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>; from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de on Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 02:26:24PM +0100 References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <20011228134343.Q10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <001a01c18fbb$2d477a80$6b469280@Y5F3Q8> <20011229142624.W10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20011229151624.A21978@xs4all.nl> The good news is that the item appears to be back again. Or maybe I should say a portion of it may be back. see ebay item: 1315585953 It was more appealing to me with the terminal included. I am not sure if there is media and if it is running either. In view of the previous comments, the 100 EURO seems way too high as a starting bid. It will be interesting to see how this one sells. Would the 100 EURO be more reasonable with a terminal included? Just wondering, Bill Amsterdam, NL *** still looking for a VAX *** On Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 02:26:24PM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On 2001.12.28 17:17 Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > And, keep in mind that I got my VAX 6310 with 32MB ram, RA82, RA92, & > > TU81+ for free, which is a much larger machine. > I also got my MV4k200 for free. I know the person that bought the EPay > MV4k200. I still can not belive that he is willing to pay that price. > <> From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 29 12:26:22 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (The Wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <20011228134343.Q10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <001a01c18fbb$2d477a80$6b469280@Y5F3Q8> <20011229142624.W10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20011229151624.A21978@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3C2E0ACE.F5359C06@xs4all.nl> Bill, If it's just a *VAX*, I have an MVII for you in a rack mountable unit (with slides). It has a cpu and memory, but no idea how much. It also has an RX50 unit but no disk (I have to see if I can give you one of my spare ones). You can also -->borrow<--- my tk50 unit for loading SW on it. Ed "William S ." wrote: > > The good news is that the item appears to be back > again. Or maybe I should say a portion of it may > be back. > > see ebay item: 1315585953 > > It was more appealing to me with the terminal > included. I am not sure if there is media and > if it is running either. In view of the previous > comments, the 100 EURO seems way too high as a > starting bid. It will be interesting to see > how this one sells. Would the 100 EURO be more > reasonable with a terminal included? > > Just wondering, > > Bill > Amsterdam, NL > > *** still looking for a VAX *** > > On Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 02:26:24PM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On 2001.12.28 17:17 Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > > > And, keep in mind that I got my VAX 6310 with 32MB ram, RA82, RA92, & > > > TU81+ for free, which is a much larger machine. > > I also got my MV4k200 for free. I know the person that bought the EPay > > MV4k200. I still can not belive that he is willing to pay that price. > > > <> -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From nerdware at ctgonline.org Sat Dec 29 09:21:11 2001 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: I bought eBay! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C2D8B07.25196.10B9C9@localhost> Great! Now that you own eBay, will you lower the ridiculous fee structure back to something reasonable? Thank you. > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/PC270014.JPG > > I couldn't resist ;) > > (For those without the benefit of a GWB, it's a photo of a game I just > bought at the toy store called "eBay Electronic-Talking Auction Game" > :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at > www.VintageTech.com * Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com "A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 11:15:48 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: I bought eBay! In-Reply-To: <3C2D8B07.25196.10B9C9@localhost> Message-ID: > > (For those without the benefit of a GWB, it's a photo of a game I just > > bought at the toy store called "eBay Electronic-Talking Auction Game" On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Paul Braun wrote: > Great! Now that you own eBay, will you lower the ridiculous fee > structure back to something reasonable? Yes. >From now on, ALL complaints about e-bay should be directed to Sellam. From rcini at optonline.net Sat Dec 29 13:10:29 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Housecleaning-updated Message-ID: Hello, all: Here's an update on my annual housecleaning. I've found a few more items which I've added to the list and I'm marking those which have been spoken for already. - AIM stuff - there are about 2-3 partial boards, 2 keyboards, 2 bases and 4 tops still available. - Books: * A Programmer's Viwe of the Intel 432 System (Organick) - still available * Inside Commodore DOS (Immers) - spoken for * MicroC/OS-II RTOS book with disk (Labrosse) - spoken for * Microcomputer Experimentation with the Motorola MEK6800D2 (Leventhal) - available * Motorola Microprocessor Software Catalog (1984) - available - Magazines: * Spare BYTE magazines: 1/82, 3/82, 4/82, 10/85 (2), 10/86, 11/86, 9/87. Condition is very good on some to fair on one. - Software: * MicroSolutions UniForm for the Epson QX-10 If anyone is interested in any of these remaining items, contact me off-list. I would prefer trades for these items. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From r.stek at snet.net Sat Dec 29 14:14:52 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:51 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software Message-ID: <000001c190a5$7a21e5d0$0201a8c0@bob> I may be jumping in late since I missed the original request (I get the digest version and don't always read them each day) but I have dBASE 5.5 with the compiler if that would help. Or do you need version 5 specifically? Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 15:37:01 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: DQ614 (was Re: What did you ask "Santa" for this year.... : )) In-Reply-To: <10112281945.ZM8231@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011229213701.74573.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > One Dilog DQ614 driver disk for RT-11. > > Was it Zane or Ethan who was also looking for this? I think it was _both_ of us. > Well, it's a bit late, but I have an extra Christmas present for you > guys. Yay! > It would have been done on Christmas Eve, but my RX02 drives needed a > severe talking to, along with the 11/23 they are on. I forgive you! Now all I need to do is to juggle devices to get the stuff on there. I do have RT-11, on RX50 and RL02. Since I can't have the RLV12 in at the same time as the as the DQ614, I guess I'll throw the DQ614 in my BA123 since I don't have an easy way to put an RX50 in my older Qbus boxes. Many thanks for these. I have been looking for the formatting software since 1987 when I got this DQ614 from my former employer. It came in a Dataram PDP-11 that was EOLed a few weeks after we bought it. ISTR it was a KDF-11 w/3rd-party dual-height RAM card, DQ614, Rodime 10mb drive (probably dead), DLV11J w/distribution panel w/4 x DB25, and a 3rd- party floppy controller with a Tandon TM848 drive (room for two in the front of the chassis). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 29 11:13:55 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: DEC: Checked but not Mated. References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E02F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20011228102337.024784b8@pc> Message-ID: <006c01c1908c$32cb73e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Sorry about the absurd title. I have a DecMate-III that I never checked out until Yesterday. The parts are easy to get: standard Dec monitor and kbd. It POST's OK to an enhanced text "Decmate" screen. period. Sooo.. Where can I find RX50/images for O/S of same? (OS278? or some such). Anybody have CP/M for it? Anybody know a way to hack into the auto-test or do I need a diskette for that too? John A. not too many Q's I hope. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 29 12:24:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: Tape drive needed (Chad Fernandez) References: <3C2D6F74.5EC762F@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15406.2641.674926.466480@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 29, Chad Fernandez wrote: > The other day I found a SCO Open Desktop 2.0.0 media kit, on Qic24 > tape. I don't have the correct drive...... I don't have any tape drive > experience, actually. > > Does anybody have an unneeded Qic24 SCSI tape drive? I checked Ebay and > I didn't see anything that I thought was what I needed. This is going back into a very fuzzy memory...but does anyone know if an Archive 2150S drive (QIC-150) will read QIC-24 tapes? Those drives are pretty common, and they're standard SCSI so they don't require less common interface hardware. And, I think I have one. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From pechter at bg-tc-ppp505.monmouth.com Sat Dec 29 16:10:52 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp505.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: <15406.2641.674926.466480@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 29, 2001 01:24:17 pm" Message-ID: <200112292210.fBTMAqp01462@bg-tc-ppp505.monmouth.com> > On December 29, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > The other day I found a SCO Open Desktop 2.0.0 media kit, on Qic24 > > tape. I don't have the correct drive...... I don't have any tape drive > > experience, actually. > > > > Does anybody have an unneeded Qic24 SCSI tape drive? I checked Ebay and > > I didn't see anything that I thought was what I needed. > > This is going back into a very fuzzy memory...but does anyone know if > an Archive 2150S drive (QIC-150) will read QIC-24 tapes? Those drives > are pretty common, and they're standard SCSI so they don't require > less common interface hardware. And, I think I have one. :-) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf > > IIRC it will. I've got QIC36 (I think) and QIC02 interfaced drives which will... I've got no SCSI based stuff smaller than the QIC150 stuff. (If anyone's interested I've got spare Archive 2150's -- both QIC02 and SCSI.) Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Dec 29 17:14:56 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: <200112292210.fBTMAqp01462@bg-tc-ppp505.monmouth.com> References: <15406.2641.674926.466480@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011229151425.031eb2c0@mail.zipcon.net> At 05:10 PM 12/29/01 -0500, you wrote: > > This is going back into a very fuzzy memory...but does anyone know if > > an Archive 2150S drive (QIC-150) will read QIC-24 tapes? Those drives > > are pretty common, and they're standard SCSI so they don't require > > less common interface hardware. And, I think I have one. :-) 2150S will read a QIC24 tape just fine. From fernande at internet1.net Sat Dec 29 14:08:36 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed References: Message-ID: <3C2E22C4.2795A465@internet1.net> I think Qic-24 refers to it being 9-tracks, but maybe there is more too it..... other wise Qic-9 would seem to be the more appropriate name :-) Your drive won't do me, since it is a Qic-02 interface. Thanks anyway. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Not sure what QIC 24 is, what drives use it, etc but I have a CaliPer > CP150AE drive (5.25" unit with latch type drop down door) that I pulled from > a Mountain Filesafe 7150 that I needed the power supply from. If it will > work for you, or anyone else, it's up for adoption for the cost of shipping. > > A search for CP-150AE on Google turns up that this is a "Caliper CP-150AE > 150/250 MB 5.25" HH QIC-02 interface 1/4" cartridge tape drive internal" so > I guess anyone that needs one of these should email me directly as soon as > possible - I'm in the middle of clearing shop space and it's destined to go > with the trash after the 1st of the year if not claimed. > > It weighs about 4 lbs and can be mailed. My guess is that shipping outside > the US would be expensive. From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Dec 29 15:46:16 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: <3C2E22C4.2795A465@internet1.net> Message-ID: It's open for adoption to anyone else that wants it for shipping - was working as far as I know when I got it and had to yank it's power supply out. The drive is like new as far as I can tell. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 2:09 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tape drive needed I think Qic-24 refers to it being 9-tracks, but maybe there is more too it..... other wise Qic-9 would seem to be the more appropriate name :-) Your drive won't do me, since it is a Qic-02 interface. Thanks anyway. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Not sure what QIC 24 is, what drives use it, etc but I have a CaliPer > CP150AE drive (5.25" unit with latch type drop down door) that I pulled from > a Mountain Filesafe 7150 that I needed the power supply from. If it will > work for you, or anyone else, it's up for adoption for the cost of shipping. > > A search for CP-150AE on Google turns up that this is a "Caliper CP-150AE > 150/250 MB 5.25" HH QIC-02 interface 1/4" cartridge tape drive internal" so > I guess anyone that needs one of these should email me directly as soon as > possible - I'm in the middle of clearing shop space and it's destined to go > with the trash after the 1st of the year if not claimed. > > It weighs about 4 lbs and can be mailed. My guess is that shipping outside > the US would be expensive. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Dec 29 16:18:22 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: <3C2E22C4.2795A465@internet1.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011229141242.037c9910@mail.zipcon.net> QIC-2GB* 42 tracks QIC-1000 30 tracks QIC-525 26 tracks QIC-150 18 tracks QIC-120 15 tracks QIC-24 9 tracks any of the above compatible drives should be able to read a QIC24 format tape Archive, Wangtec, Tandberg all made drives of this format, Tecmar also marketed one, but I think it was a Wangtec mechanism. At 03:08 PM 12/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >I think Qic-24 refers to it being 9-tracks, but maybe there is more too >it..... other wise Qic-9 would seem to be the more appropriate name :-) > >Your drive won't do me, since it is a Qic-02 interface. Thanks anyway. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > Not sure what QIC 24 is, what drives use it, etc but I have a CaliPer > > CP150AE drive (5.25" unit with latch type drop down door) that I pulled > from > > a Mountain Filesafe 7150 that I needed the power supply from. If it will > > work for you, or anyone else, it's up for adoption for the cost of > shipping. > > > > A search for CP-150AE on Google turns up that this is a "Caliper CP-150AE > > 150/250 MB 5.25" HH QIC-02 interface 1/4" cartridge tape drive internal" so > > I guess anyone that needs one of these should email me directly as soon as > > possible - I'm in the middle of clearing shop space and it's destined to go > > with the trash after the 1st of the year if not claimed. > > > > It weighs about 4 lbs and can be mailed. My guess is that shipping outside > > the US would be expensive. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 18:01:05 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Jumper settings needed for Heath H-27 disk controller Message-ID: <20011230000105.76378.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> As I've mentioned before, I have a Heathkit H-11 with standard Heathkit disk controller. The disk controller locks up the CPU if it's in place in the interrupt chain (it will begin the boot process if it's behind all the cards with a gap in the grant chain, but after loading the boot sector and turning on interrupts, the OS, naturally, won't run). So... I have tested all the TTL chips in a chip tester. What I can't test are the 88xx bus chips. From tracing the grant pins, I think the 8837 is what hangs off the interrupt lines. I have finally found some (unsoldered) loose replacements. What I still lack are schematics or at least a jumper map. The jumpers have been soldered and cut and resoldered before I received the card. As a result, I have no idea what they are supposed to be set at. Does anyone know the state of the jumpers for default operation? Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 16:54:29 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Interactive UNIX boxed set - free for shipping Message-ID: <20011229225429.61434.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> I have a set of disks and manuals for Interactive UNIX 2.0. I got it way back when my local ham radio club was big time into it. Linux eventually displaced Interactive as a favored distribution, but 10+ years ago, if you wanted SysV r3.2 for an i386, this was one of the best ways to do it. We used it largely for UUCP, but on more than one occasion, I used Vpix, the DOS environment emulator that ships as an option to Interactive UNIX, so I could run the Microsoft C compiler to produce some little command-line tool. By today's standards, it's a footnote of the OS wars. If, however, you want something which was representative of the times, it's a nice thing to have. I do not need it and am offering it to the list before discarding it. Free to good home; you pay shipping from 43202. It will be several pounds due to the quantity of paper. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Dec 29 13:28:20 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: <3C2D6F74.5EC762F@internet1.net> Message-ID: Not sure what QIC 24 is, what drives use it, etc but I have a CaliPer CP150AE drive (5.25" unit with latch type drop down door) that I pulled from a Mountain Filesafe 7150 that I needed the power supply from. If it will work for you, or anyone else, it's up for adoption for the cost of shipping. A search for CP-150AE on Google turns up that this is a "Caliper CP-150AE 150/250 MB 5.25" HH QIC-02 interface 1/4" cartridge tape drive internal" so I guess anyone that needs one of these should email me directly as soon as possible - I'm in the middle of clearing shop space and it's destined to go with the trash after the 1st of the year if not claimed. It weighs about 4 lbs and can be mailed. My guess is that shipping outside the US would be expensive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 1:24 AM To: Classic Computers Subject: Tape drive needed The other day I found a SCO Open Desktop 2.0.0 media kit, on Qic24 tape. I don't have the correct drive...... I don't have any tape drive experience, actually. Does anybody have an unneeded Qic24 SCSI tape drive? I checked Ebay and I didn't see anything that I thought was what I needed. I wish this were on cd..... that would be easy! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 16:40:09 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? Message-ID: <20011229224009.90956.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially equivalent, or is one better than the other? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 29 12:13:10 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: <20011229224009.90956.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011229230753.ZHB3274.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:40:09 -0800 (PST) > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both > Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially > equivalent, or is one better than the other? > > -ethan Ethan, Same capacity but both performance and quality not same. Q XP32150 is better drive. The ST32550N is piece of junk. I hear from others about dead ones and problems with them, I had one torn down to asses the quality (poor) and type of failure. The XP32150 is one platter OEM version based on 4GB and 9GB XP series. While ST32550 series uses six platters to make 2.1GB which does goes very slow and hot. Early series of scsi drives in 1" factor were seagate's teething problems. I have both types already and I say XP32150 is one you should use. Cheers, Wizard From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 29 16:59:37 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? (Ethan Dicks) References: <20011229224009.90956.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15406.19161.524583.988305@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 29, Ethan Dicks wrote: > A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both > Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially > equivalent, or is one better than the other? I can't tell you anything about the XP32150s, but I've set up probably three hundred ST32550Ns and have had very good luck with them. Their write caches ship set to "disabled" by default, though, so it's usually a good idea to stick it on something that'll allow you to edit the contents of Mode Page 6 to turn it on, if my memory is correct. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Dec 29 17:16:09 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: <20011229224009.90956.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011229151532.031eb050@mail.zipcon.net> they are fairly similar, the quantum will run cooler than the seagate though. At 02:40 PM 12/29/01 -0800, you wrote: >A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both >Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially >equivalent, or is one better than the other? > >-ethan > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Dec 29 17:55:26 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? References: <20011229224009.90956.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C2E57EE.B688FC06@ccp.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both > Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially > equivalent, or is one better than the other? > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com I prefer Quantum drives myself, but I guess it's more like the debate between Ford and Chevy. I have only one Seagate, in this Linux machine and it works just as well as all of my Quantums. I'm more leery of the new drives, as they seem not to have the quality of just a couple years ago. Guess it is the marketing arm of Maxtor now driving quality. Gary Hildebrand From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 29 12:56:09 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: <3C2E57EE.B688FC06@ccp.com> Message-ID: <20011229235139.PKZH14445.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > I prefer Quantum drives myself, but I guess it's more like the debate > between Ford and Chevy. I have only one Seagate, in this Linux machine > and it works just as well as all of my Quantums. I'm more leery of the > new drives, as they seem not to have the quality of just a couple years > ago. Guess it is the marketing arm of Maxtor now driving quality. > > Gary Hildebrand Maxtor is good maker. I rest your worries, I work part time for years for pc shop is selling machines with all kinds of HDs, IBM, Qs, Maxs, Seagates, WDs etc. We recently kicked out WD lineup from our new machines due to quality, compatiablity issues (very serious), Q lineup shrank to uselessness due to LCTs and CX-KA era screwups by our supplier, but newer ones like KX, KS and Max's Qs are good so far but no longer available. Max and IBM are what we have left to choose from for using with new machines and parts we sell. Dodged the 75GXP bullet since we couldn't sell these at prices customers is willing to pay for given capacity till IBM came out with 60GXP and Max w/ 7200rpm. Prices on both went below $200 for 20GB are what we able to include them with our new systems and for parts. So far for last 4 years we have good record regearding the Max, Q and IBM (aside from 75GXP we didn't use due to prices back then). What drives us nuts we cannot get IDE Seagate drives from that same suppiler that used to sell those in past till 9GB years ago. Seagate are also good drives but we cannot obtain them. I'm mystified at that change. Makers should have kept selling 5GB to 15GB range because our customer base are still using 486, pentiums and older machines, and many are unwilling to jump for low-end 20GB for their machines to replace overstuffed HD or ones that failed. Even the low end 20GB 5.4K rpm is decently inexpesnive but these will cause problems in these older machines. FYI: Used little HDs (2GB to 10GB) ones are in demand around here and our used HD shelf of those kind are bare and the other supplier specializing in selling pulls or NOS on older parts dried up or disappeared. Cheers, Wizard From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 29 19:16:06 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Not sure what QIC 24 is, what drives use it, etc but I have a CaliPer > CP150AE drive (5.25" unit with latch type drop down door) that I pulled from > a Mountain Filesafe 7150 that I needed the power supply from. If it will > work for you, or anyone else, it's up for adoption for the cost of shipping. I'll adopt it, if it's still available. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 29 19:35:54 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Tothwolf wrote: .... > > work for you, or anyone else, it's up for adoption for the cost of shipping. > > I'll adopt it, if it's still available. Oops, Operator Error :P -Toth From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 19:46:17 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: S-100 score! Message-ID: <20011230014617.3679.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> My sister-in-law works at the Post Office and knows lots of the local customers. She happened to learn that one gentleman had some "old computers" in the attic. When I called him, it turned out to be an XOR S-100 box w/dual 8" drives, a Liberty 100 terminal, and some loose S-100 cards (including a Cromemco serial/parallel card still in the shrink wrap, a few 8K cards (2102 and 2114-based) and a couple of SMS video cards, one as yet unstuffed with the chips under plastic). No OS, few docs (some of the cards _do_ have manuals). He kept the S-100 prototype card he once wrapped for his first CPU (sockets intact, chips missing, wires removed). The sad news is that he mentioned that he used to have an old computer that he threw out... his son brought it home ($20 at a yard sale) back when Dad had a 386 in the living room - it was a Digital Group machine. :-( So... Anyone have any info on XOR boxen? I have a CP/M disk for the C-128 and stuff for the Kaypro, but nothing on 8". Can I mail anyone blank disks to be copied onto? What sort of information would I have to provide to be able to put together a compatible disk? Brand of disk controller? Type and manufacturer of CPU card? Serial card vendor? Also, how did S-100 video cards work? Did you still have a console terminal but use the video card as a secondary peripheral? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Dec 29 11:11:56 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) References: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228115453.02d5df60@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228212200.026e0960@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3C2DF95C.39B21428@tiac.net> I'm going to regret posting this, but... TXCO's come from the factory with special caps you place over them while they go through the soldering oven (modern boards don't get wave soldered anymore). Failing to place these protective caps over the TXCO's when they go through the wash cycle leads to a drifting oscillator that very often fails soon after its in the field. At Media 100 Inc, we make high-end video equipment, non-linear editors. We use very fancy TXCO's, (+/-2 ppb) and they do not survive the wash cycle without very special attention. ( I run the Test Engineering section at Media 100, and we have learned these facts emperically, by collecting failure data for many years) As the focus of the list is older machines, we need to keep things in mild like paper roll caps, etc. Advising that running old boards through the dishwasher, while sometimes safe, is not an absolutely safe thing to do. I do agree that most often, semi-modern boards will survive the process, but there are many components that will not. These components used to be much more common than they are today. But as the discussion relates to this older technology, any reccomendation to run the boards through a dishwasher should address the very real risks. How hot was the water? I don't know, its not something I can easily control. Is is possible that the 'dishwashers' used for this function commercially have been altered, and/or are connected to a lower temprature source of water? I do know that dishes come out a bit too hot to handel unless you open the door and allow them to cool. I do know its a heck of a lot hotter than any bath, after all, there is a heater element inside the dishwasher. I'm not sure its a temprature issue, as some have assumed. A dishwasher may have very powerful waterjets and a lot of vibration. The dammage may be mechanical, possibly a bonding wire detachment. But I'd like to point out once again that there are a good number of components that will be dammaged by water. Some of these have been listed in posts here already. If we accept that some components cannot be washed in this way, how can anyone defend a blanket statement that using a dishwasher on a board will be safe for that board? Simply put, you cannot. Not unless you know eash and every component on that board. All those tiny little pulse transfromers on your core memory sense amplifiers, do you know those are able to withstand this treatment? Many are not fully encapsulated, and would not be safe to treat this way. Some components (like crystals, not oscillators, just quartz crystals) cannot even be soldered safely, and are socketed for this reason. Is it s good idea to run these through your dishwasher? Lastly, storage tempratures do not assume a condensing environment, much less pressurized water jets at high tempratures, and high vibration levels. The safe storage temprature specification does not really apply here. The inability of some components to survive a water bath is. So lets agree on this... If your sure no components will be effected, go ahead and try your dishwasher. If your not absolutely sure, or if replacement parts are hard to get, don't take the risk, and use a little IPA and some elbow grease to clean your boards. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Dec 29 11:53:01 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <3C2DF95C.39B21428@tiac.net> Message-ID: > I'm not sure its a temprature issue, as some have assumed. A dishwasher may have > very powerful waterjets and a lot of vibration. The dammage may be mechanical, > possibly a bonding wire detachment. I would think the thermal shock of the chips hitting the hot water would be a failure mechanism. Hot air and hot water are different things, even at the same temperature. The thermal resistance of a water to ceramic (or plastic) junction is much, much lower, than one with air, so during the first seconds of the wash cycle, the chips go from ambient temperature to something rather high. Lots of stress results, especially if only some of the chip's package gets wet. Preheating the boards would help reduce the shock greatly, but home dishwashers do not do that (not a good idea to cook the food onto the plates before trying to wash them!). The above is one of the reasons why liquid cooled electronics are a bit tricky. The cooling units *never* just start pumping cold water when the power is applied. There is always a stabilization period, so the shock is reduced. Me? I am a hand washer. Nothing is wrong with a little clean water and (very) light detergent, a toothbrush or Q-tip and some time. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From louiss at gate.net Sat Dec 29 19:34:25 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <008101c190bc$234e25e0$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: Today I picked up a NEXT Color Printer in a thrift shop. From what I have found, it is a PostScript color printer using a Cannon Bubblejet engine, with a SCSI interface (altough it appears to have a standard LPT Centronics interface as well). It is Model N2005. It has the extremely interesting serial number of ACS-00000017. The machine, aside from being dusty, is like new. I don't have a NEXT system, and I have not tried hooking it up to my PC (yet). Does anyone know if this will work (using a generic PS driver)? In any event, if this is the NEXT item on your list to complete your NEXT system, I would be happy to discuss a deal. Louis From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Dec 29 20:07:48 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1009678072.29369.3.camel@eleusis> I have a NeXT color printer. >From what I know about NeXT printers, none of them are PostScript. The NeXT printers are similar to monitors or a 'display device', in that the Display PostScript engine in the operating system is the same engine that handles printing. This would make the use of a NeXT printer on a PC require a filter, which I don't beleive exists. Both of the centronics ports on the printer are SCSI. I've never seen one that has a parellel port. The printer is interesting to say the least. If you pop the cover off, you'll see how complicated these early inkjet printers were. There's a maze of tubing running all of the printer through all kinds of pumps and reserviours to move the ink. I've rebuilt mine from the ground up, and I can tell you it's not an easy task. I had to do this because there was ink that had dried in the lines. It's amazing these printers actually work. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Sat, 2001-12-29 at 20:34, Louis Schulman wrote: > Today I picked up a NEXT Color Printer in a thrift shop. From what I have found, it is a PostScript color > printer using a Cannon Bubblejet engine, with a SCSI interface (altough it appears to have a standard LPT > Centronics interface as well). It is Model N2005. It has the extremely interesting serial number of > ACS-00000017. > > The machine, aside from being dusty, is like new. > > I don't have a NEXT system, and I have not tried hooking it up to my PC (yet). Does anyone know if this will > work (using a generic PS driver)? > > In any event, if this is the NEXT item on your list to complete your NEXT system, I would be happy to > discuss a deal. > > Louis > From dittman at dittman.net Sat Dec 29 12:35:16 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <3C2DF95C.39B21428@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Dec 29, 2001 12:11:56 PM Message-ID: <200112291835.fBTIZG009724@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I'm not sure its a temprature issue, as some have assumed. A dishwasher may have > very powerful waterjets and a lot of vibration. The dammage may be mechanical, > possibly a bonding wire detachment. At the incoming test group I used to work in quite a few lots of parts specified some percentage of the parts undergo PIND (Particle Impact Noise Detection) testing. The shock and vibration provided by the PIND tester was much higher than any that would be encountered in a dishwasher. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 29 12:48:06 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: Re: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) (Bob Shannon) References: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228115453.02d5df60@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228212200.026e0960@127.0.0.1> <3C2DF95C.39B21428@tiac.net> Message-ID: <15406.4070.955449.344460@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 29, Bob Shannon wrote: > At Media 100 Inc, we make high-end video equipment, non-linear > editors. We use very fancy TXCO's, (+/-2 ppb) and they do not Oh My. If any of those should happen to "fall out", let me know. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Dec 29 16:08:48 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) References: <3C2C8D84.C9C822A0@tiac.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228115453.02d5df60@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20011228212200.026e0960@127.0.0.1> <3C2DF95C.39B21428@tiac.net> <15406.4070.955449.344460@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C2E3EF0.AF21C309@tiac.net> Not a problem. I'll send you a list of freq's I have sitting in my office. Send me your address off-list. Dave McGuire wrote: > On December 29, Bob Shannon wrote: > > At Media 100 Inc, we make high-end video equipment, non-linear > > editors. We use very fancy TXCO's, (+/-2 ppb) and they do not > > Oh My. If any of those should happen to "fall out", let me know. 8-) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 29 13:32:10 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) Message-ID: <001e01c190a0$ccdda750$62ed9a8d@ajp166> From: William Donzelli >I would think the thermal shock of the chips hitting the hot water would >be a failure mechanism. Hot air and hot water are different things, even >at the same temperature. The thermal resistance of a water to ceramic (or Not an issue as the temps are well blow boiling (nominal 145f). >plastic) junction is much, much lower, than one with air, so during the >first seconds of the wash cycle, the chips go from ambient >temperature to something rather high. Lots of stress results, especially >if only some of the chip's package gets wet. Preheating the boards would >help reduce the shock greatly, but home dishwashers do not do that (not a >good idea to cook the food onto the plates before trying to wash them!). Not required. >The above is one of the reasons why liquid cooled electronics are a bit >tricky. The cooling units *never* just start pumping cold water when the >power is applied. There is always a stabilization period, so the shock is >reduced. Some do, other run the cooling first and let the coolant temp climb to operating temp gradually. Others preheat the coolant to working temp so the system can come on line faster. Allison From LFessen106 at aol.com Sat Dec 29 20:35:44 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: AVAILABLE-- PDP, DEC parts Message-ID: <16a.66beb9a.295fd780@aol.com> In a message dated 12/28/01 7:50:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, rschaefe@gcfn.org writes: > I talked to a man named Jon Ikoniak at temple.edu in PA not too long ago. > Seems he has a large collection of old DEC gear he inherited from a > predecessor. He said that a lot of the complete units have been gobbled up, > but there are still a few racks > left, and lots of drives and parts. They appear to be free. I was planning > on posting his email address, but after the last virus I got from my buddy > s.ring, contact me off-list for email or a voice number. I would be interested in information. I actually live close by. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Dec 29 13:39:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: S-100 score! References: <20011230014617.3679.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c190a0$774ebae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> When you say SMS, do you suppose you could have meant SDS? I've got a display board from SDS and could, possibly, scrounge a boot disketted for an SDS setup that uses the SDS video board with keyboard, and their FDC. Unfortunately, there was a lot more diversity among S-100 board sets than among those we've come to know and love/hate since the evolution of the IBM PC. What you need to generate a "boot diskette" for your particular combination of boards can vary quite a bit. If I were you, I'd leave the unassembled boards unassembled until you're sure you need them otherwise. Figure out what you have, whether it works, how it works, and go from there. Once you know what, exactly, you have available, you can figure out how to make it play together. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 1:46 AM Subject: S-100 score! > > My sister-in-law works at the Post Office and knows lots of the > local customers. She happened to learn that one gentleman had > some "old computers" in the attic. When I called him, it turned > out to be an XOR S-100 box w/dual 8" drives, a Liberty 100 > terminal, and some loose S-100 cards (including a Cromemco > serial/parallel card still in the shrink wrap, a few 8K cards > (2102 and 2114-based) and a couple of SMS video cards, one as > yet unstuffed with the chips under plastic). > > No OS, few docs (some of the cards _do_ have manuals). > > He kept the S-100 prototype card he once wrapped for his first CPU > (sockets intact, chips missing, wires removed). > > The sad news is that he mentioned that he used to have an old computer > that he threw out... his son brought it home ($20 at a yard sale) > back when Dad had a 386 in the living room - it was a Digital Group > machine. :-( > > So... Anyone have any info on XOR boxen? I have a CP/M disk for > the C-128 and stuff for the Kaypro, but nothing on 8". Can I mail > anyone blank disks to be copied onto? What sort of information > would I have to provide to be able to put together a compatible > disk? Brand of disk controller? Type and manufacturer of CPU card? > Serial card vendor? > > Also, how did S-100 video cards work? Did you still have a console > terminal but use the video card as a secondary peripheral? > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 29 20:16:19 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: S-100 score! References: <20011230014617.3679.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C2E78F3.F61DD5A0@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > My sister-in-law works at the Post Office and knows lots of the > local customers. She happened to learn that one gentleman had > some "old computers" in the attic. When I called him, it turned > out to be an XOR S-100 box w/dual 8" drives, a Liberty 100 > terminal, and some loose S-100 cards (including a Cromemco > serial/parallel card still in the shrink wrap, a few 8K cards > (2102 and 2114-based) and a couple of SMS video cards, one as > yet unstuffed with the chips under plastic). > > No OS, few docs (some of the cards _do_ have manuals). > > He kept the S-100 prototype card he once wrapped for his first CPU > (sockets intact, chips missing, wires removed). > > The sad news is that he mentioned that he used to have an old computer > that he threw out... his son brought it home ($20 at a yard sale) > back when Dad had a 386 in the living room - it was a Digital Group > machine. :-( > > So... Anyone have any info on XOR boxen? I have a CP/M disk for > the C-128 and stuff for the Kaypro, but nothing on 8". Can I mail > anyone blank disks to be copied onto? What sort of information > would I have to provide to be able to put together a compatible > disk? Brand of disk controller? Type and manufacturer of CPU card? > Serial card vendor? > > Also, how did S-100 video cards work? Did you still have a console > terminal but use the video card as a secondary peripheral? > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com Having once a S-100 computer (1985) I bought a used VDM-1 video card. Do the bumps one has in life, all I have today is the dog eared manual. ( no schematic or pc board). The display is 16 lines of 64 characters. Writing to a I/O port sets up the video start address 1K of display memory is mapped to 1k of real memory. CR , VT look to be the only control characters implemented. The driver program listed is to patch basic. It looks like you have a TTY ( i/o device and paper tape reader ) as your main console until you save a patched basic. ( the paper tape reader still loads basic ) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Dec 29 13:49:44 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <001e01c190a0$ccdda750$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: > Not an issue as the temps are well blow boiling (nominal 145f). You missed the whole point. A sudden change (as in a second or so) from 65 F to 145 F will shock a chip far more than a gradual change (15 seconds) from 65 F to 212 F. It is the rate of change, and not the change itself, that matters. With hot water hitting the chips instantly, the rate of change is going to be *really* fast. It may also be uneven - if a large chip only gets half soaked with the hot water at startup. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 29 12:14:18 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) References: Message-ID: <3C2E07FA.DC246078@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > Not an issue as the temps are well blow boiling (nominal 145f). > > You missed the whole point. A sudden change (as in a second or so) from > 65 F to 145 F will shock a chip far more than a gradual change (15 > seconds) from 65 F to 212 F. It is the rate of change, and not the > change itself, that matters. With hot water hitting the chips instantly, > the rate of change is going to be *really* fast. It may also be uneven - > if a large chip only gets half soaked with the hot water at startup. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org But is not that change the same as going from COLD to HOT when you apply power to the chip under normal operation of the computer? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Dec 29 16:07:53 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <3C2E07FA.DC246078@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > But is not that change the same as going from COLD to HOT when you apply > power to the chip under normal operation of the computer? For the big stuff, sure. Not for the small stuff (glue, I/O, memory, and other stuff that does not suck much power). Here is a test. Boil some water in a big pot, as if you were to make pasta. Turn the gas off, let it cool just a few seconds, then dump all your favorite chips in. I am sure one will not comeout alive (or maybe crippled). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 29 13:31:02 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) References: Message-ID: <3C2E19F6.6A058DC6@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > But is not that change the same as going from COLD to HOT when you apply > > power to the chip under normal operation of the computer? > > For the big stuff, sure. Not for the small stuff (glue, I/O, memory, and > other stuff that does not suck much power). > > Here is a test. Boil some water in a big pot, as if you were to make > pasta. Turn the gas off, let it cool just a few seconds, then dump all your > favorite chips in. I am sure one will not comeout alive (or maybe crippled). > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org Now who would want soggy french fries ... My favorite chip! I expect there are better ways to clean a board rather than in the dishwasher. While you hear a lot about 'classic' common old CPU's -- apple, radio shack, commodore do people find any homebrewed computers did that all stop when the S-100 bus came out? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From donm at cts.com Sat Dec 29 16:32:14 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, William Donzelli wrote: > > But is not that change the same as going from COLD to HOT when you apply > > power to the chip under normal operation of the computer? > > For the big stuff, sure. Not for the small stuff (glue, I/O, memory, and > other stuff that does not suck much power). > > Here is a test. Boil some water in a big pot, as if you were to make > pasta. Turn the gas off, let it cool just a few seconds, then dump all your > favorite chips in. I am sure one will not comeout alive (or maybe crippled). Scarcely a valid test. In the first place, the water temperature is dramaticly higher than 145-160 degrees F and, in the second place, dishwashers spray the hot water on their contents rather than submerge them. - don > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 29 12:56:09 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011229235134.PKZB14445.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hey, > Q: will a Pentium chip put out enough heat to boil water? It takes it a > long time to toast bread. 16W max typical for 166-200, same for MMX as well. I suggest bunch of cheap durons (35W to 50W) and seal it up w/ small cylinder that water is in contact with die itself and bring that water to boil. :-) Cheers, Wizard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 29 14:50:19 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) References: Message-ID: <3C2E2C8B.3B33D036@jetnet.ab.ca> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Q: will a Pentium chip put out enough heat to boil water? It takes it a > long time to toast bread. A: No use several Z80's. They have the same thermal characteristics as standard stove elements, in watts per mm^2. The Pentium chips run hotter internally but ever since the Three Mile Island* meltdown there as been laws against more than 1 cpu per motherboard. * The meltdown was from the control computers -- not the reactor! :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 29 13:50:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Dec 29, 1 12:53:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011229/c9ef8c62/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 29 15:06:18 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) Message-ID: <006301c190ad$694a6630$62ed9a8d@ajp166> If you consider 65f to 145f heat shocking significant then whatever you do don't turn on your PC. Seriously, that is not enough temp change and cycles, common temp shock testing {operating} is freezing water to 158F water {+70C} for many (usually hundreds of cycles). Usually the upper temp is not the operational limit but, the storage limit (in the 150C {300f} range!). Never minding what wave soldering a 16pin dip does in a room temp to molten solder step! For the average dishwasher that would likely be only one cycle of the 65-145F span as well. Again if your really that worried, don't. Reality is that anything that woud be that fussy is really fragile. The only examples of something I'd worry about down RI there is the PDP-12 a(maybe) and definatly the PB250{uses germainium transistors with low Tstorage and operating range, delay lines and other rare items}. Even then my viewing of both of those is they were very clean and not likely at issue. Allison -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, December 29, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: Re: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) >> Not an issue as the temps are well blow boiling (nominal 145f). > >You missed the whole point. A sudden change (as in a second or so) from >65 F to 145 F will shock a chip far more than a gradual change (15 >seconds) from 65 F to 212 F. It is the rate of change, and not the >change itself, that matters. With hot water hitting the chips instantly, >the rate of change is going to be *really* fast. It may also be uneven - >if a large chip only gets half soaked with the hot water at startup. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Dec 29 16:04:53 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <006301c190ad$694a6630$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: > If you consider 65f to 145f heat shocking significant then whatever > you do don't turn on your PC. Seriously, that is not enough temp > change and cycles, common temp shock testing {operating} is > freezing water to 158F water {+70C} for many (usually hundreds > of cycles). Usually the upper temp is not the operational limit but, > the storage limit (in the 150C {300f} range!). Never minding what > wave soldering a 16pin dip does in a room temp to molten solder > step! The key is TIME. 65F to 145F is not that big of a jump, but when it happens in about a second - well, that is a pretty good rate of change. dT/dt and all of that stuff I don't remember how to do anymore. When I turn my machine on, certainly some parts go from room temp to something pretty hot. It, however, is a nice smooth, slow climb. The processor probably gets hot really fast, but I am sure the designers had that in mind for such a power hog. What about the other chips that never use that much juice to get hot? I am sure they do not appreciate such a sudden rise in temperature. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 29 16:50:19 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) Message-ID: <008101c190bc$234e25e0$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Be sure of the result before you suggest. I used to also handle automotive product so I have a better than average knowledge of the ourcome. Allison From: William Donzelli To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, December 29, 2001 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) >> But is not that change the same as going from COLD to HOT when you apply >> power to the chip under normal operation of the computer? > >For the big stuff, sure. Not for the small stuff (glue, I/O, memory, and >other stuff that does not suck much power). > >Here is a test. Boil some water in a big pot, as if you were to make >pasta. Turn the gas off, let it cool just a few seconds, then dump all your >favorite chips in. I am sure one will not comeout alive (or maybe crippled). > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 29 17:29:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) Message-ID: <009b01c190c2$75915b00$62ed9a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >While you hear a lot about 'classic' common old CPU's -- apple, radio >shack, >commodore do people find any homebrewed computers did that all stop when >the S-100 bus came out? No, if anything the MITS box was the kickoff. Alllison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 20:42:00 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <00b801c190ca$e0a07450$62ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > Thank you for pointing out the most practical matter of it all. At least there isn't much of a static problem in the board washer. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 20:40:40 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <3C2E2C8B.3B33D036@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > A: No use several Z80's. They have the same thermal characteristics as > standard stove elements, in watts per mm^2. The Pentium chips run > hotter internally but ever since the Three Mile Island* meltdown there > as been laws against more than 1 cpu per motherboard. > * The meltdown was from the control computers -- not the reactor! :) SNL (Saturday Night Live) postulated that Three Mile Island was a case of Pepsi Syndrome - somebody spilled a Pepsi into one of the control computer keyboards. Soon after that, the US and CCCP (USSR) normalized relations enough to exchange vodka for Pepsi, introducing Pepsi into Russia. Right after that was Chernobyl. Apple's ride onto the rocks was with a Pepsi executive at the helm. Unrelated incidents? maybe From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Dec 29 20:46:48 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Scarcely a valid test. In the first place, the water temperature is > dramaticly higher than 145-160 degrees F and, in the second place, > dishwashers spray the hot water on their contents rather than submerge > them. Wow, I did not think anyone would take the test so seriously. Lighten up a bit. It is just an example. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 29 18:33:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:52 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) Message-ID: <00b801c190ca$e0a07450$62ed9a8d@ajp166> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) >And where can I get a dish^H^H^H^Hboard washer that STARTS at 150 degrees? >Mine takes a while to flush the cold water through the system before it >starts spraying hot. When I turn on a "HOT" water faucet, in MY house, it >takes it close to a minute to come up to temperature. One of the >consequences of long pipes and not sharing plumbing with a lot of other >people. Thank you for pointing out the most practical matter of it all. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 20:49:52 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: <10112300049.ZM9251@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 29, 12:53, William Donzelli wrote: > > I would think the thermal shock of the chips hitting the hot water would On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Do most American dishwashers start with hot water? Most European ones > start with cool water and heat it as they run. While some start with water from the "hot" pipes, there are a few gallons of cold that come through first. The first splash of water is NOT hot. Doesn't ANYONE else here have to run the "hot" water a little before it starts coming out hot? From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Dec 29 20:51:58 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed Message-ID: In a message dated 12/29/01 3:15:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, geoffr@zipcon.net writes: > > > This is going back into a very fuzzy memory...but does anyone know if > > > an Archive 2150S drive (QIC-150) will read QIC-24 tapes? Those drives > > > are pretty common, and they're standard SCSI so they don't require > > > less common interface hardware. And, I think I have one. :-) > > 2150S will read a QIC24 tape just fine. > Most any 60 meg, 150 meg and IIRC 525 meg drives will read QIC-24, Serial Recorded Magnetic Tape Cartridge for Information Interchange (9 tracks, 10,000 FTPI, GCR, 60 MB) Here is a link to the QIC Standards. http://www2.qic.org/qic/html/qicstan.html QUIC-02 & QIC-36 are interface standards and should not be confused with QIC-24 which is a format for information interchange. The QIC-02 interface 150 meg drive should work if you have a QIC-02 controller in your computer. SCSI drives are easier. An Archive 2150S should work fine. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011229/6c5997d8/attachment.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 29 17:39:27 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Here is a test. Boil some water in a big pot, as if you were to make On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > Scarcely a valid test. In the first place, the water temperature is > dramaticly higher than 145-160 degrees F and, in the second place, > dishwashers spray the hot water on their contents rather than submerge > them. And where can I get a dish^H^H^H^Hboard washer that STARTS at 150 degrees? Mine takes a while to flush the cold water through the system before it starts spraying hot. When I turn on a "HOT" water faucet, in MY house, it takes it close to a minute to come up to temperature. One of the consequences of long pipes and not sharing plumbing with a lot of other people. But MOST OF ALL: Always shut down the machine before running it through the dishwasher! Park the hard-drive and turn off the monitor. Besides, if the computer is plugged in, the cord keeps the door from sealing completely, and some water leaks out. A water-tight bulkhead fitting would solve that, but I'd still want a GFCI for it. Q: will a Pentium chip put out enough heat to boil water? It takes it a long time to toast bread. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 29 18:49:26 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: William Donzelli "Re: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question)" (Dec 29, 12:53) References: Message-ID: <10112300049.ZM9251@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 29, 12:53, William Donzelli wrote: > I would think the thermal shock of the chips hitting the hot water would > be a failure mechanism. Hot air and hot water are different things, even > at the same temperature. The thermal resistance of a water to ceramic (or > plastic) junction is much, much lower, than one with air, so during the > first seconds of the wash cycle, the chips go from ambient > temperature to something rather high. Lots of stress results, especially > if only some of the chip's package gets wet. Preheating the boards would > help reduce the shock greatly, but home dishwashers do not do that (not a > good idea to cook the food onto the plates before trying to wash them!). Do most American dishwashers start with hot water? Most European ones start with cool water and heat it as they run. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Dec 29 21:05:24 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Dec-2001 Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > Specifically, dBase 5 and dBase Compiler. I might be able to get my hands on that. At a quick check, I have dBase IV ver 1.2 Clipper 5.0 Which aren't what you want. But let me heartily recomend Clipper. It compiles 99% of dBase programs and more. The 2 features I really liked of Clipper where that it worked like a real compiler (ie, compiled to .obj files, linked to .exe. Back in the day I used a 3rd party incremental linker which saved much time during compiles) but above all, XCOMMANDS! These allowed you to add new syntax to the language, which would be mapped onto function calls. Think of it as a sophisticated pre-processor. I've heard rumours of someone implementing Fortran as Clipper xcommands. -Philip From foo at siconic.com Sat Dec 29 21:31:56 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > Which aren't what you want. But let me heartily recomend Clipper. > It compiles 99% of dBase programs and more. The 2 features I really > liked of Clipper where that it worked like a real compiler (ie, > compiled to .obj files, linked to .exe. Back in the day I used a 3rd > party incremental linker which saved much time during compiles) but Yes, I used an incremental linker as well ("Blinker" is what it was called if I'm not mistaken). It made a tremendous difference on a 286 :) Clipper did/does rock, but once I got into FoxPro I preferred it. > above all, XCOMMANDS! These allowed you to add new syntax to the > language, which would be mapped onto function calls. Think of it as a > sophisticated pre-processor. I've heard rumours of someone > implementing Fortran as Clipper xcommands. Never used or even heard of those but that sounds cool. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sat Dec 29 21:14:54 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: I bought eBay! In-Reply-To: <3C2D8B07.25196.10B9C9@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Paul Braun wrote: > Great! Now that you own eBay, will you lower the ridiculous fee > structure back to something reasonable? Naw, I'm planning to fire all the staff, starting with the executives, and then merge with HP. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From louiss at gate.net Sat Dec 29 21:54:51 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <1009678072.29369.3.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: On 29 Dec 2001 21:07:48 -0500, Jeffrey H. Ingber wrote: #I have a NeXT color printer. # #From what I know about NeXT printers, none of them are PostScript. The literature says: "Postscript Level II imaging". I don't know if this is consistent with your description or not. # Both of the #centronics ports on the printer are SCSI. I've never seen one that has #a parellel port. Well, you are mistaken about something. This printer has _three_ Centronics ports, two are SCSI, and the other is smaller, the size of a parallel port. My theory is that this is the difference between a Model 2004, which is documented in web literature, and Model 2005, of which there may have been few examples (since this one is evidently number 17). # # # #On Sat, 2001-12-29 at 20:34, Louis Schulman wrote: #> Today I picked up a NEXT Color Printer in a thrift shop. From what I have found, it is a PostScript color #> printer using a Cannon Bubblejet engine, with a SCSI interface (altough it appears to have a standard LPT #> Centronics interface as well). It is Model N2005. It has the extremely interesting serial number of #> ACS-00000017. #> #> The machine, aside from being dusty, is like new. #> #> I don't have a NEXT system, and I have not tried hooking it up to my PC (yet). Does anyone know if this will #> work (using a generic PS driver)? #> #> In any event, if this is the NEXT item on your list to complete your NEXT system, I would be happy to #> discuss a deal. #> #> Louis #> # # From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 22:09:22 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Interactive UNIX set claimed Message-ID: <20011230040922.38360.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> I will contact the earliest respondent off-list. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 29 21:24:20 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > On Dec 29, 12:53, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I would think the thermal shock of the chips hitting the hot water would > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Do most American dishwashers start with hot water? Most European ones > > start with cool water and heat it as they run. > > While some start with water from the "hot" pipes, there are a few gallons > of cold that come through first. > > The first splash of water is NOT hot. > > Doesn't ANYONE else here have to run the "hot" water a little before it > starts coming out hot? I always get the hot water running before using the dishwasher. Most dishwashers I've seen cycle the water, and only fill at the beginning of each cycle. If you want the first wash to be with hot water, you have to make sure it fills with hot water. -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 29 21:08:29 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) References: Message-ID: <3C2E852D.A534E5F7@jetnet.ab.ca> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > On Dec 29, 12:53, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I would think the thermal shock of the chips hitting the hot water would > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Do most American dishwashers start with hot water? Most European ones > > start with cool water and heat it as they run. > > While some start with water from the "hot" pipes, there are a few gallons > of cold that come through first. > > The first splash of water is NOT hot. > > Doesn't ANYONE else here have to run the "hot" water a little before it > starts coming out hot? In my apartment they ran the hot and cold pipes together ( hot water heat) so the hot water is warm -- from the heating building. The building is too hot .. so the hot water is not too cold to use in the shower.And the Cold water is too hot to drink! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Dec 29 21:17:52 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any interest in 5.25 floppy drives or small scsi drives? Message-ID: <122.9e53191.295fe160@aol.com> I've got a number of IBM SCSI drives from 80-200 meg that work just fine as well as a whole bunch of 5.25 floppy drives from different manufacturers in both 360k and 1.2m capacities and I hate to just toss the stuff. Anybody have a need for them? -- From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sat Dec 29 22:26:18 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any interest in 5.25 floppy drives or small scsi drives? In-Reply-To: <122.9e53191.295fe160@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011229232505.00ab5100@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 10:17 PM 12/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >I've got a number of IBM SCSI drives from 80-200 meg that work just fine as >well as a whole bunch of 5.25 floppy drives from different manufacturers in >both 360k and 1.2m capacities and I hate to just toss the stuff. Anybody have >a need for them? I might be interested in them. What do you have and how much to 34611 Are they blank, used, with/without software? Gene ================================= Gene Ehrich gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Dec 29 22:52:51 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any interest in 5.25 floppy drives or small scsi drives? Message-ID: <5f.20173e55.295ff7a3@aol.com> In a message dated 12/29/2001 11:36:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: << At 10:17 PM 12/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >I've got a number of IBM SCSI drives from 80-200 meg that work just fine as >well as a whole bunch of 5.25 floppy drives from different manufacturers in >both 360k and 1.2m capacities and I hate to just toss the stuff. Anybody have >a need for them? I might be interested in them. What do you have and how much to 34611 Are they blank, used, with/without software? Gene >> To answer this question, I decided to post it. The 100-200m SCSI drives are almost all IBM brand from PS/2 models running OS/2. There are some others laying around that work, but not sure of anything else about them. Everything's used of course. -- Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 29 22:32:41 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software In-Reply-To: RE: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software (Sellam Ismail) References: Message-ID: <15406.39145.344888.21128@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 29, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Which aren't what you want. But let me heartily recomend Clipper. > > It compiles 99% of dBase programs and more. The 2 features I really > > liked of Clipper where that it worked like a real compiler (ie, > > compiled to .obj files, linked to .exe. Back in the day I used a 3rd > > party incremental linker which saved much time during compiles) but > > Yes, I used an incremental linker as well ("Blinker" is what it was called > if I'm not mistaken). It made a tremendous difference on a 286 :) I used "tlink" (came with Borland compilers if memory serves) for linking clipper programs. It was a very good linker. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From jrice at texoma.net Sat Dec 29 22:41:07 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find References: Message-ID: <3C2E9AE3.5060901@texoma.net> My NeXT Color Printer, a model N2004 has both a SCSI in and out as well as a Centronics style parallel port. It S/N is in the 2600 range (I'm too busy to look right now). Louis Schulman wrote: >On 29 Dec 2001 21:07:48 -0500, Jeffrey H. Ingber wrote: > >#I have a NeXT color printer. ># >#From what I know about NeXT printers, none of them are PostScript. > >The literature says: "Postscript Level II imaging". I don't know if this is consistent with your description or >not. > ># Both of the >#centronics ports on the printer are SCSI. I've never seen one that has >#a parellel port. > >Well, you are mistaken about something. This printer has _three_ Centronics ports, two are SCSI, and the >other is smaller, the size of a parallel port. My theory is that this is the difference between a Model 2004, >which is documented in web literature, and Model 2005, of which there may have been few examples (since >this one is evidently number 17). ># ># ># >#On Sat, 2001-12-29 at 20:34, Louis Schulman wrote: >#> Today I picked up a NEXT Color Printer in a thrift shop. From what I have found, it is a PostScript color >#> printer using a Cannon Bubblejet engine, with a SCSI interface (altough it appears to have a standard >LPT >#> Centronics interface as well). It is Model N2005. It has the extremely interesting serial number of >#> ACS-00000017. >#> >#> The machine, aside from being dusty, is like new. >#> >#> I don't have a NEXT system, and I have not tried hooking it up to my PC (yet). Does anyone know if this >will >#> work (using a generic PS driver)? >#> >#> In any event, if this is the NEXT item on your list to complete your NEXT system, I would be happy to >#> discuss a deal. >#> >#> Louis >#> ># ># > > > >. > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 22:50:19 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Tonight's S-100 find detailed inventory Message-ID: <20011230045019.21111.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> OK... first of all, let me say that an XOR box weighs a ton. Second, here's what I have - more cards than a single computer needs. I wish I hadn't given away _all_ of my 68K S-100 stuff to a friend years ago (but at least it's in good hands) In the backplane when I got it: o COMPU/TIME UFDC-1 floppy disk controller, c. 1983 Labelled jumpers for drives A-D, each with "5/8", "S0" and "S1" 1 34-pin connector 1 50-pin connector WDC FD1795PL-02 FDC chip no docs o COEX 64K static RAM board, c. 1984 32 Hitachi M58725P 2Kx8 SRAM chips no docs (but jumpers are labelled) o COMPU/TIME SBC-880 CPU board (c) 1980 no CPU chip Loose boards... o QT Computer Systems RAM+65 SRAM board, c. 1981 32 2114 SRAMs (16K total) missing IC49 (near the S-100 fingers, probably a 74LS240 or 74LS244) labelled DIP switches no docs o Vector Graphic 8K SRAM board, c. 1980 64 2102 SRAMs no docs o Seals Electronics SRAM board, (c) 1976 64 2102 SRAMs (8K) no docs o SSM VB1C video card, c. 1980 docs o SSM VB2 video card, c. 1979 chips still under plastic docs o Cromemco TU-ART Digital Interface, c. 1982 2 parallel 2 serial NIB docs o Vector Graphic Bit Streamer serial card 8251 SIO chip no docs o MITS 88 UIO "Universal I/O Card"(?) c. 1977 M6850 AY-5-10134 26-pin Berg-styled connector 10-pin .154"(?)-spacing single-row connector (P-2) no docs o Unknown-brand mystery card (video?), c. 1979 8212 2 x 2708 EPROM (each marked 'FW II Gen', one with down arrow, one up) 4 x 2114-3 SRAMs 6-pin .1"-spacing single-row connector U42 missing (24-pin .6" DIP) no docs o SSM CB1A CPU board, c. 1980 INS8080A 2 x 8212 2 x 2708 (marked "0-3V" and "4.7V") 2 x 2114 docs o SSM 8080 Monitor V1 docs command summary listings So, all in all, a good night's work. I'd love to learn more about what I have, especially the stuff with no docs. Some of the docs I do have, have schematics, but some of it is assembly and rudimentary test/programming instructions. I would appreciate any and all tips to online versions of docs for this stuff. I would also appreciate any tips for getting an OS for the box with its COMPU/TIME cards. I suppose one way would be to receive a 5.25" image, reconstitute it and boot the system off of mini-floppy, then format a disk or two on the 8" floppies and go from there. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 22:57:09 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: S-100 score! In-Reply-To: <000e01c190a0$774ebae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011230045709.22470.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > When you say SMS, do you suppose you could have meant SDS? No... sorry... my typo... I meant SSM, as in SSM Microcomputer Products of San Jose. It's a VB2 and a VB1C (both with manuals) > If I were you, I'd leave the unassembled boards unassembled until you're > sure you need them otherwise. Sure. The only thing unassembled is the VB2. Looks like the way to go is with the COMPU/TIME CPU and disk controller and the 64K SRAM board. The rest might be nice in another, less-I/O- oriented box. Only got one diskette controller, but the other stuff looks like it could be fed with paper tape at least. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Dec 29 23:13:27 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1009689211.29368.5.camel@eleusis> On Sat, 2001-12-29 at 22:54, Louis Schulman wrote: > Well, you are mistaken about something. This printer has _three_ Centronics ports, two are SCSI, and the > other is smaller, the size of a parallel port. My theory is that this is the difference between a Model 2004, > which is documented in web literature, and Model 2005, of which there may have been few examples (since > this one is evidently number 17). Very interesting. Mine definitely has only 2 50-pin Centronics ports. The serial number is 00000078, and is an N2004. What makes this even more interesting is that NeXT's didn't have a parallel port (that I know of). There's an easy way to test if a) That's a parallel port, and b) it has an on-board PostScript processor. Just connect it to a PC and send some PostScript to the printer. That would make a nice inexpensive PostScript color printer if this works, as ink is still available. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > # > # > # > #On Sat, 2001-12-29 at 20:34, Louis Schulman wrote: > #> Today I picked up a NEXT Color Printer in a thrift shop. From what I have found, it is a PostScript color > #> printer using a Cannon Bubblejet engine, with a SCSI interface (altough it appears to have a standard > LPT > #> Centronics interface as well). It is Model N2005. It has the extremely interesting serial number of > #> ACS-00000017. > #> > #> The machine, aside from being dusty, is like new. > #> > #> I don't have a NEXT system, and I have not tried hooking it up to my PC (yet). Does anyone know if this > will > #> work (using a generic PS driver)? > #> > #> In any event, if this is the NEXT item on your list to complete your NEXT system, I would be happy to > #> discuss a deal. > #> > #> Louis > #> > # > # > > From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Dec 29 23:46:46 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VESA Bus Multi-IO cards Message-ID: If anyone is interested, I saw in at the local thrift store 4, what appear to be brand new, Data Technology DTC2278V2 VESA Local Bus Multi IO Cards. They have two serial, 1 parallel, FDC and IDE. I think the price was $10.00 per card (I didn't write down the price in my infinite wisdom, and I saw them about 6 hours ago, so like most of the rest of my day, the info is slipping out of my head... but I think it was $9.99). I don't care about making money off them, so the cards will be actual price (price + 6% NJ tax), plus shipping. Figure they will be about 1 lb when packed, shipping from 07450. If anyone wants me to pick one up, let me know (I remember there was a VESA discussion going on here not too long ago, so I figured some of you might have an interest in one) -chris From wpointon at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 00:26:44 2001 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (bill pointon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any interest in 5.25 floppy drives or small scsi drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <31D7D635-FCEE-11D5-8FBF-003065ED7126@earthlink.net> sorry -- half asleep and hit send before i changed address -- billp On Sunday, December 30, 2001, at 01:23 AM, bill pointon wrote: > i definitely need a pair 360 k drives for an old ibm pc and could use a > couple of 1.2s also for other old at's, not to mention a couple of the > ~200 meg scsi disks for some old macs -- just let me know where to > paypal you for the shipping -- im at zip 34945 ---- thanks a lot > On Saturday, December 29, 2001, at 10:17 PM, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > >> I've got a number of IBM SCSI drives from 80-200 meg that work just >> fine as >> well as a whole bunch of 5.25 floppy drives from different >> manufacturers in >> both 360k and 1.2m capacities and I hate to just toss the stuff. >> Anybody have >> a need for them? >> >> -- >> > From wpointon at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 00:23:43 2001 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (bill pointon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any interest in 5.25 floppy drives or small scsi drives? In-Reply-To: <122.9e53191.295fe160@aol.com> Message-ID: i definitely need a pair 360 k drives for an old ibm pc and could use a couple of 1.2s also for other old at's, not to mention a couple of the ~200 meg scsi disks for some old macs -- just let me know where to paypal you for the shipping -- im at zip 34945 ---- thanks a lot On Saturday, December 29, 2001, at 10:17 PM, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > I've got a number of IBM SCSI drives from 80-200 meg that work just > fine as > well as a whole bunch of 5.25 floppy drives from different > manufacturers in > both 360k and 1.2m capacities and I hate to just toss the stuff. > Anybody have > a need for them? > > -- > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 00:37:41 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs References: <20011230014617.3679.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c190fc$7b610a00$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Just got back from seeing the Royal Tenenbaums. There are a number of scenes that take place in Chas Tenenbaum's (Ben Stiller) office where he still has the computer he used 22 yrs. before (1978) as a young financial whiz. It appears to be a Zenith Z-110 and CRT attaced to - get this - an Apple 5 1/4" external floppy drive! While at least temporally close, the configuration isn't. -W From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Dec 30 00:36:31 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-460 booting saga continues ... Message-ID: <3C2EB5EF.706@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, after a quick excursion in getting a PDP8/A up and running (as far as that gets without any peripherals other than the programmers console :-), I'm now back to the big toy. The 6460 is still waiting to boot Ultrix. Recap: it's up and running from VMS 7.2 or VMX 5.6 from RA90 disks through KDB50 and KDM70. I don't have any working IP communication because the VMS 5.6 just doesn't have anything and 7.2 has MULTINET which just refuses to run with the old license key, nor with a cheat hack, nor with a hobbyist license key. So I'm now down to transferring files through modemspeed. (I could write a TK70 or 9-track tape at my workplace, but that's a hassle by itself, so I keep that as a last restort.) Luckily I have kermit on the VMS 7.2 so I have a convenient yet slow way of transferring files. I also have a boot tape from Isildur. That's Ultrix 4.1. That version seems to not support the 6400, it boots up until a certain point and then simply halts. I'm very sure it is *not* a tape read error and that the boot process fails somewhere after the VMB is loaded and probably at the point where vmunix is started. I assume it just can't get a hold of the console at that time to put out an error message and just dies. Even the primary ultrixload will dump an error message before it halts. The more recent developments: I also have an Ultrix-4.5 CD. But no CD ROM hooked to the VAX and no other VAX (InfoServer) with CD ROM and so I cannot boot that. I could possibly just write the CD ROM image onto a disk verbatim and fingers crossed boot from it. However, I cannot pump the 178 MB through the 9600 b/s line, or else I have to have that thing up for 2 days and two nights only for something that might just plain not work. Interestingly this CD is not an ISO file system but a simple UFS written to the CD in 10 kB blocks. FreeBSD's mount unfortunately cannot mount that. However, I just dd'ed an image onto disk and vnconfig - mount form there. It's read-only and disklabel doesn't make any sense out of it, but I can read everything just fine. Today's news: So, I decided I make myself a bootable tape from the reverse engineered Ultrix 4.1 boot tape and the new 4.5 files from the CD. The Ultrix boot tape comes with a vmunix that apparently has some sort of standalone memory root file system. Then it supposedly is able to set up a disk and install a dump backup onto that disk. That dump backup contains mkfs, disklabel, ifconfig, rcp, uncompress, and tar, so I have everything to set myself up even if the autoinstaller cannot deal with my hack. The boot tape I could read from VMS. $ MOUNT/FOREIGN/BLOCKSIZE=512/RECORD=512 MUC6 $ COPY MUC6: FILE.00 $ COPY MUC6: FILE.01 $ COPY MUC6: FILE.02 --> ERROR $ DISMOUNT MUC6: $ MOUNT/FOREIGN/BLOCK=10240/RECORD=10240 MUC6 $ SET MAGTAPE /SKIP=FILE:2 $ COPY MUC6: FILE.02 $ COPY MUC6: FILE.03 $ COPY MUC6: FILE.04 $ COPY MUC6: FILE.05 ... and so on. It's got some 40 or so files on it. What there files are we are being told from the ultrixload.c source code. FILE.00 is the ultrixload image, about 18 kB in size. Ultrixload is said to load either vmb.exe or a standalone kernel from a non-file structured device. The layout of the boot device is descibed as: FILE.00 - ultrixload FILE.01 - a combo consisting of - descriptor block 1 512 byte block - vmb.exe (optional) - vmunix (compressed if not a TK50) This magic descriptor block is described as: struct desc { union { char pad[512]; struct { struct exec x; /* a.out image header */ int nblks; /* num of 512 byte blocks on medium */ int vmbblks; /* size of VMB in 512 byte blocks */ int compressed; /* 1 = compressed, 0 = not compressed */ } d } un }; By loading the initial portions of the other files down to my BSD system and using file and stuff, I figured the other files: FILE.02 - the ROOT file system dump FILE.03 - an uncompressed tar of the instctl files (on the CD) FILE.04 - a compressed tar that is called ULTBASE450 on the CD FILE.05 - a compressed tar that is called ULTBIN450 on the CD ... and so on. The instctl tar begins with a file called ULT.image and that is just a list of files beginning with ROOT, ULTBASE, ULTBIN, that apparently correspond with the files on the tape in that order. So, my plan is to fiddle with files 0 and 1 only and keep the rest, as it should be compatible with the 4.5 kernel. That reduces the amount of data to transfer tremendously. Quickly I found that I have no ultrixload on the CD, so the old version will have to do. As I have strong indication that that works, I can leave it at that. Remains to work on file 1, that funny combo of descriptor, vmb.exe and vmunix. The tar file 4 (ULTBASE) contains a vmb.exe as well and so I could compare the two files that came with ultrix 4.1 and 4.5 respectively. They were both the same size and actually both the same. I successfully extracted another exact copy of vmb.exe using dd if=file.01 bs=512 of=vmb.exe skip=1 count=86 So, whatever VMB.EXE is for (sounds like a VMS boot block), I can reuse the old one. Given that I have a standalone vmunix, all I'd need to do is cut and paste that somewhere after block 86 to the end of file 1 with a few cat and dd operations. But here the problem starts. I cannot interpret the descriptor block very well. It tells me that the VMB.EXE is 86 blocks in size and that is exactly 44032 bytes, that corresponds with the actual size of the vmb.exe file from the tar archives. Good, but apparently the vmunix is not a complete piece. Apparently that descriptor block's a.out header slot actually holds the a.out header from the vmunix file and the vmunix file is right after the vmb.exe without it's a.out header. I also see a lot of 0 data in that region. So apparently I will have to fiddle with that a.out header and need to know just where to cut vmunix. That is a problem. I will try to figure that out somehow. My hunch is that the a.out block (which I haven't been fiddling with since I ported Kyoto Common Lisp to 386/BSD 0.1) allows for the executable to actually have some other stuff like that vmb.exe before the actual start of the executable image. I have no idea though what the purpose of this stupid vmb.exe is. All in all I'm optimistic. I'd love to make a boot tape with 4.5 Ultrix that I could then share with my friends (that is you) who also want to get their 6400s converted to Unix. As always I'd be thankful for any helpful ideas you might have. regards, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Dec 30 01:57:11 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? Message-ID: <161.66878ad.296022d7@aol.com> Decided to pull out my amiga 500 and a PHOENIX hard drive that fits it. plugged it all in and the hard drive spins up, but the amiga still prompts for a system floppy. can a PC download and create an amiga system disk? i want to see what this computer is capable of. -- Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. From ajwotherspoon at shaw.ca Sun Dec 30 00:30:24 2001 From: ajwotherspoon at shaw.ca (Alex Wotherspoon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Digital Rainbow 100+ PC Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011229213105.00aa2400@mail.islandnet.com> For Sale or ???: DIGITAL RAINBOW 100+ COMPUTER This early 1980's machine is designed to boot DOS, CP/M and as a DEC Terminal. CPU - Model PC100-B2, Serial #WFC3514 - with dual 5.25" floppy drive and full height hard drive Colour Monitor - Model VR241-A, Serial #Y31-008107 - with video cable Keyboard - Model LK201AA, Serial #B033602238 - with cable [plugs into video cable] Printer - Model LA50-RA, Serial #TC73817A - with printer cable Circuit boards in CPU are as follows: 5416206 5416205-01C1 [PC100-B MOTHER BD] 5415961 5015960-01C1 [PC100B MEMORY EXTENSION] [27 sockets for DRAM; 9 populated with 50256-150 chips] 5415688 5015687-01J1 [No description on board] 5415482 5015481-C1P1 [PC100 RX50 CONTROLLER] [Floppy Drive] 5416019 5016018-A1 [PC100 RD51 CNTLR] [Hard Drive] The hard drive is a Seagate ST-412. No documentation. No diskettes. Includes 3 power cords. In working order (except do not know how to test printer which seems to POST OK). CPU will boot from hard drive into CP/M but not DOS. Plastic cases are quite suntanned (i.e. yellowed) except printer. Pictures of the machine may be viewed at http://members.shaw.ca/ajwotherspoon/rainbow/. Located in Victoria, BC, Canada. Shipping (including cartons), insurance and customs broker (if required) are your choice and cost. Using a bathroom scale the approximate weights are: CPU - 32 lbs. Monitor - 36 lbs. Keyboard - 4 lbs. Printer - 20 lbs. Cables - 4 lbs. Total - 96 lbs. (plus shipping cartons) I have a box that could be used for the printer if packed in Styrofoam peanuts. The hard drive should probably have its heads parked before shipping but I will need instructions/software. This is a collector's item, I am sure, but I have no idea as to its value and I am not a collector. It was purchased new here in Victoria from Computerland about 1983. I found it at a garage sale a few weeks ago. I would hate to see it scrapped but I can't store it much longer! I will not separate any components - it's all or nothing! For my efforts I would like a few dollars in addition to the shipping/insurance but not an outrageous sum. At www.omnicorp.net/dec.htm (in New Jersey) I see the CPU is listed at US$85, the monitor at US$95, the keyboard at US$50 and the printer at US$75 (all tested and guaranteed). I am not looking at anywhere near these prices. For further information or to make an offer please send email. This machine was posted on December 19, 2001 in the comp.sys.dec.micro Newsgroup and I have had one expression of interest so far. Alex From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 30 02:48:23 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VESA Bus Multi-IO cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Chris wrote: > If anyone is interested, I saw in at the local thrift store 4, what > appear to be brand new, Data Technology DTC2278V2 VESA Local Bus Multi > IO Cards. They have two serial, 1 parallel, FDC and IDE. > > I think the price was $10.00 per card (I didn't write down the price > in my infinite wisdom, and I saw them about 6 hours ago, so like most > of the rest of my day, the info is slipping out of my head... but I > think it was $9.99). I'd recommend trying to talk them down to a more reasonable price if anyone is interested in these cards. Most of these VLB I/O cards sold for $10-$15 new back in '94-96. -Toth From hans at Huebner.ORG Sun Dec 30 03:13:30 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-460 booting saga continues ... In-Reply-To: <3C2EB5EF.706@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011230100150.V10688-100000@mail.huebner.org> On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > The 6460 is still waiting to boot Ultrix. Am I missing something? In my memories, Ultrix does support only one CPU. It would be a shame to have 5 idle CPUs, but if you insist on doing so, just send the unused CPU boards to my direction so that we can beef up vax6k.openecs.org :) > Recap: it's up and running from VMS 7.2 or VMX 5.6 from RA90 > disks through KDB50 and KDM70. I don't have any working IP > communication because the VMS 5.6 just doesn't have anything [...] Have you tried CMUTEK TCP/IP? It run's "pretty well" under VMS 5.x and it is free. CMUTEK is available from ftp://ftp.csus.edu/pub/cmuip/. Best regards and keep us posted :) -Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 29 14:05:26 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) Message-ID: <004801c190a5$01080170$62ed9a8d@ajp166> From: Bob Shannon >TXCO's come from the factory with special caps you place over them while >they go through the soldering oven (modern boards don't get wave soldered anymore). Older ones were effectively sealed units with a removable screw opening that was sealed with an O-ring. Those stand dishwaser just fine. Of course many computers never have anything like a TCXO on them. >Failing to place these protective caps over the TXCO's when they go through the >wash cycle leads to a drifting oscillator that very often fails soon after its in >the field. This is to be expected with any sealed part or temperature sensitive part. Then again a reflow oven is far hotter than a dishwasher. >As the focus of the list is older machines, we need to keep things in mild like >paper roll caps, etc. Advising that running old boards through the dishwasher, >while sometimes safe, is not an absolutely safe thing to do. Actually caps like that are likely to have failed from age by now. Systems that used them are likely quite old and not of the easily dishwashed contruction for mechanical reasons other than components used. >I do agree that most often, semi-modern boards will survive the process, but there >are many components that will not. These components used to be much more common >than they are today. But as the discussion relates to this older technology, any >reccomendation to run the boards through a dishwasher should address the very real >risks. Modern as in PDP-8/11/ and vax series, flip chip and similar are certainly cleanable this way and likely were in the factory back then too. Older modular constuction of a more hand wired era may be not suitable. Then again most of the DEC wirewrapped backplanes would likely survive a dishwash but, it may be ill advised as they are mechanically fragile as those that have worked with them know. >How hot was the water? I don't know, its not something I can easily control. Is >is possible that the 'dishwashers' used for this function commercially have been >altered, and/or are connected to a lower temprature source of water? I do know >that dishes come out a bit too hot to handel unless you open the door and allow >them to cool. Generally domestic hotwater never exceeds 160f due to scalding risks for the users. Some dishwasers have reheaters to compensate for low domestic water temps but they still only shoot for 160ish (F) max, and often that can be turned off by using the economy cycle. The bake dry cycle should be avoided if there is one (or too warm). One thing we ar not talking about is temps near boiling (212f) or water that hot. >I do know its a heck of a lot hotter than any bath, after all, there is a heater >element inside the dishwasher. Usually for dry cycle, sometimes powered to compensate for low domestic water temps. Econco cyle turns if off more often than no. bath water is maybe 105-115f (Very hot!) FYI. People are susceptable to harm with water over 130f. >I'm not sure its a temprature issue, as some have assumed. A dishwasher may have >very powerful waterjets and a lot of vibration. The dammage may be mechanical, >possibly a bonding wire detachment. No, internal bonds for the parts can take that shock and likely 10X that all day. External bonds??? We are talking soldered boards not wire wrap or really old MIL spotwelded. >But I'd like to point out once again that there are a good number of components >that will be dammaged by water. Some of these have been listed in posts here >already. If we accept that some components cannot be washed in this way, how can >anyone defend a blanket statement that using a dishwasher on a board will be safe >for that board? Most of the components are of the "open" contruction and not suitable or the problem of assuring they will dry needs addressing. The average printed circuit construction used in computers often does not contain them or they are designed to allow for that kind of cleaning. Parts I worry about and see: Pots (variable resistors of enclosed design) small relays of non hermetic design DIP switches (may need replacing anyway) Power upplies in general, (other than potted units). >All those tiny little pulse transfromers on your core memory sense amplifiers, do >you know those are able to withstand this treatment? Many are not fully >encapsulated, and would not be safe to treat this way. Some components (like >crystals, not oscillators, just quartz crystals) cannot even be soldered safely, >and are socketed for this reason. Is it s good idea to run these through your >dishwasher? Soldering is high stress compared to 160f water. Also of they are socketed then by all means unplug them first then was the board. Most quartz crystals however are hermetic and can withstand significant amounts of heat. Again oen design parts have to be evaluated, most tolerate wetting well if properly dried before use. A core memory sense board fo the PDP-8e/f/m design and era tolerate this very well, then again they are of modern design. I have done it to several with at least one comming out working where it didnt' before! Cleaning prior to troubleshoot was to make life easier in that case but instead removed whatever debrie causing the inital problem. Something from the PB250 era would be more suspect, mostly due to a multitude of other reasons. I've done it as well to the PDP-8/f front pannel (rotary switch and many lamp sockets) with excellent results. It's still working well over two+ years later. >If your sure no components will be effected, go ahead and try your dishwasher. If >your not absolutely sure, or if replacement parts are hard to get, don't take the >risk, and use a little IPA and some elbow grease to clean your boards. That first half is fair advice, be sure first. The second half is faulty however as there are just as many parts that will not tolerate IPA for extended times or the residue that may be left behind if not adaquately rinsed. It's fair to use caution but, to be a nelly maid over it is usually not warrented. Allison From louiss at gate.net Sun Dec 30 10:12:17 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Digital Rainbow 100+ PC In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011229213105.00aa2400@mail.islandnet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:30:24 -0800, Alex Wotherspoon wrote: #For Sale or ???: # #DIGITAL RAINBOW 100+ COMPUTER # #This early 1980's machine is designed to boot DOS, CP/M and as a DEC Terminal. # 5415688 5015687-01J1 [No description on board] I would presume this is the color video card. As I recall, the computer only produce mono without the card. Louis From ajwotherspoon at shaw.ca Sun Dec 30 11:51:48 2001 From: ajwotherspoon at shaw.ca (Alex Wotherspoon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Digital Rainbow 100+ PC In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011229213105.00aa2400@mail.islandnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011230095128.00a9eef0@shawmail> At 08:12 2001-12-30, you wrote: >On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:30:24 -0800, Alex Wotherspoon wrote: > >#For Sale or ???: ># >#DIGITAL RAINBOW 100+ COMPUTER ># >#This early 1980's machine is designed to boot DOS, CP/M and as a DEC >Terminal. > ># 5415688 5015687-01J1 [No description on board] > >I would presume this is the color video card. As I recall, the computer >only produce mono without the card. > >Louis Thanks for the info. Alex From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 30 02:14:19 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? References: <161.66878ad.296022d7@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C2ECCDB.2BA7E62A@jetnet.ab.ca> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > Decided to pull out my amiga 500 and a PHOENIX hard drive that fits it. > plugged it all in and the hard drive spins up, but the amiga still prompts > for a system floppy. can a PC download and create an amiga system disk? i > want to see what this computer is capable of. > > -- > > Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. A: No - needs extra hardware like a CATWEASEL board. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun Dec 30 09:18:41 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? References: <161.66878ad.296022d7@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C2F3051.AC717FD3@ccp.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > Decided to pull out my amiga 500 and a PHOENIX hard drive that fits it. > plugged it all in and the hard drive spins up, but the amiga still prompts > for a system floppy. can a PC download and create an amiga system disk? i > want to see what this computer is capable of. > > -- > > Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. Looks like you need a workbench boot floppy, and a PC can't make one because of a different format. Amigas use a propreitary 880k format, on a standard DSDD '720k' drive. What does your picture prompt for? Workbench 1.3? I can make a copy for you. I'd reccommend getting a 3.1 Kickstart ROM inside, as the newere O/S is much better and the software for internet access needs 3.x to work. I presume you have only 512k or 1 meg of RAM, unless the Phoenix HD controller has RAM expansion inside. I'd deccomend finding some RAM expansion to around 4 MB or so, more would be better. That little box fitted out with the baics will really blow your socks off. Weak point is the graphics output, as it is limited to 640x400 pixels and NTSC scan rates. But for a 7 mHz clock rate it chnks along pretty good on the net. Show me a PC circa 1988 that will do as well!! Gary HIldebrand, amiga user ST. Joseph, MO From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 09:59:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <3C2F3051.AC717FD3@ccp.com> References: <161.66878ad.296022d7@aol.com> <3C2F3051.AC717FD3@ccp.com> Message-ID: >What does your picture prompt for? Workbench 1.3? I can make a copy for >you. I'd reccommend getting a 3.1 Kickstart ROM inside, as the newere >O/S is much better and the software for internet access needs 3.x to >work. Some motherboard revisions have problems with any KS above 2.04 though. The later revisions work with 3.1 just fine. I was told in the past that Rev. 5 boards and below are the ones that tend to have trouble with the 3.1 ROMs sometimes and some of them even have to have jumpers on the KS ROM in order to use 2.04. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From wilby98 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 05:28:05 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S .) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 4000-200's on eBay.de In-Reply-To: <3C2E0ACE.F5359C06@xs4all.nl>; from quapla@xs4all.nl on Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 07:26:22PM +0100 References: <20011228094339.A22657@xs4all.nl> <20011228134343.Q10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <001a01c18fbb$2d477a80$6b469280@Y5F3Q8> <20011229142624.W10621@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20011229151624.A21978@xs4all.nl> <3C2E0ACE.F5359C06@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20011230122805.A28262@xs4all.nl> Ed, The MVII seems like it would be a fun way to learn a bit about vaxen. How much memory does it need to run openVMS? Is it in the BA23 enclosure? url: http://telnet.hu/hamster/dr/ba23.html Bill Amsterdam, NL On Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 07:26:22PM +0100, The Wanderer wrote: > Bill, > > If it's just a *VAX*, I have an MVII for you in a rack mountable > unit (with slides). It has a cpu and memory, but no idea how much. It > also has > an RX50 unit but no disk (I have to see if I can give you one of > my spare ones). You can also -->borrow<--- my tk50 unit for loading > SW on it. > > Ed From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Dec 30 06:24:44 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-460 booting saga continues ... In-Reply-To: <20011230100150.V10688-100000@mail.huebner.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Hans H?bner wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > The 6460 is still waiting to boot Ultrix. > > Am I missing something? In my memories, Ultrix does support only one CPU. It > would be a shame to have 5 idle CPUs, but if you insist on doing so, just send > the unused CPU boards to my direction so that we can beef up vax6k.openecs.org > :) No, Ultrix is SMP. > > Recap: it's up and running from VMS 7.2 or VMX 5.6 from RA90 > > disks through KDB50 and KDM70. I don't have any working IP > > communication because the VMS 5.6 just doesn't have anything [...] > > Have you tried CMUTEK TCP/IP? It run's "pretty well" under VMS 5.x and it is > free. CMUTEK is available from ftp://ftp.csus.edu/pub/cmuip/. It's the chicken and egg... How to get TCP/IP when you need TCP/IP to get it... :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From hans at Huebner.ORG Sun Dec 30 07:26:37 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-460 booting saga continues ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011230142435.X10688-100000@mail.huebner.org> On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Johnny Billquist wrote: > No, Ultrix is SMP. Thanks for the update. > It's the chicken and egg... How to get TCP/IP when you need TCP/IP to get > it... :-) I'd use Kermit for that, and in fact this is what Gunther currently does. I see no reason why Kermit should not be good enough for a bunch of savesets. And then there is DECNET for Linux, if everything else fails (but why should it?). -Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Dec 30 07:48:07 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-460 booting saga continues ... In-Reply-To: <20011230142435.X10688-100000@mail.huebner.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Hans H?bner wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > No, Ultrix is SMP. > > Thanks for the update. We've run it on a 6000-440 for a couple of years here. Worked just fine. This with Ultrix 4.4. We never upgraded to 4.5. But since the hardware broke down six months ago, we rolled out 8650 back in. :-) We'll probably start switching to NetBSD on it soon though. Only wished that the CI was supported. Does anybody around have programming documentation for CI and HSC controllers? > > It's the chicken and egg... How to get TCP/IP when you need TCP/IP to get > > it... :-) > > I'd use Kermit for that, and in fact this is what Gunther currently does. I > see no reason why Kermit should not be good enough for a bunch of savesets. > And then there is DECNET for Linux, if everything else fails (but why should > it?). KERMIT works, but is a bit slow. That's the only objection I have. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Dec 30 14:08:27 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-460 booting saga continues ... References: Message-ID: <3C2F743B.50206@aurora.regenstrief.org> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Hans H?bner wrote: > > >>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> >>>No, Ultrix is SMP. >>> >>Thanks for the update. Yep, in fact some string about an "Smp lock" is the first string in the vmunix, this is what I used to find the region in this file.01 combo where vmunix starts. > We've run it on a 6000-440 for a couple of years here. Worked just > fine. This with Ultrix 4.4. We never upgraded to 4.5. But since the > hardware broke down six months ago, we rolled out 8650 back in. :-) > We'll probably start switching to NetBSD on it soon though. Ah, THANK YOU for that confirmation. I still wasn't quite sure if the 6000-400 was fully supported but now I know. Do you know if Ultrix 4.2 ever really worked on the 6000-400? I am actually planning to going back (for reasons of certain source code availability etc. mumble, mumble.) > Only wished that the CI was supported. Does anybody around have > programming documentation for CI and HSC controllers? Is it not? It appeared to me that CIBCA was mentioned somewhere. Doesn't even the 11/780 have a CI interface, I can't believe Ultrix doesn't support it??? I have a CIBCA user manual and an HSC user manual, so, if need be I will try to port an existing CI driver to support CIBCA. >>>It's the chicken and egg... How to get TCP/IP when you need TCP/IP to get >>>it... :-) >>> >>I'd use Kermit for that, and in fact this is what Gunther currently does. I >>see no reason why Kermit should not be good enough for a bunch of savesets. >>And then there is DECNET for Linux, if everything else fails (but why should >>it?). >> > > KERMIT works, but is a bit slow. That's the only objection I have. Actually I really thank Hans for that suggestion. I give it a shot. It really is time well spent to set up some INET protocol support. Even if it's for sucking just 10 MB. I'm sure that my tape boot won't work the first time, so I will try the CMUIP right away. Another question to Jonnie would be if you still have an Ultrix 4.4 boot tape around? If so, I could still use it. I will have to change my transmission on my car instead of a Year-End party and there's other stuff to do. So, I would not mind being saved from spending a night cutting together my 4.5 boot tape :-) thanks, -Guntherj -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Dec 30 14:25:26 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-460 booting saga continues ... In-Reply-To: <3C2F743B.50206@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > We've run it on a 6000-440 for a couple of years here. Worked just > > fine. This with Ultrix 4.4. We never upgraded to 4.5. But since the > > hardware broke down six months ago, we rolled out 8650 back in. :-) > > We'll probably start switching to NetBSD on it soon though. > > > Ah, THANK YOU for that confirmation. I still wasn't quite sure > if the 6000-400 was fully supported but now I know. Do you > know if Ultrix 4.2 ever really worked on the 6000-400? I am > actually planning to going back (for reasons of certain source > code availability etc. mumble, mumble.) No idea. Like I said, we've just run 4.4 here. > > Only wished that the CI was supported. Does anybody around have > > programming documentation for CI and HSC controllers? > > > Is it not? It appeared to me that CIBCA was mentioned somewhere. Major confusion here. I'm talking about NetBSD now... > Another question to Jonnie would be if you still have an Ultrix > 4.4 boot tape around? If so, I could still use it. I will have > to change my transmission on my car instead of a Year-End party > and there's other stuff to do. So, I would not mind being saved > from spending a night cutting together my 4.5 boot tape :-) Sorry, but no. We've never had it. We used a CD distribution, and don't even ask how we manages to get that down onto the machine... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ccraft at springsips.com Sun Dec 30 12:59:10 2001 From: ccraft at springsips.com (Chris Craft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-460 booting saga continues ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01123011591000.19090@ccraft.home> The last time I tried CMU/IP, it downloaded it on my PC (Linux) and used kermit to squirt it over to a uVII... never quite figured out how to configure the sucker, though. Maybe I'll have another go at it! Any ideas on whether it might run on oVMS7x? (That's the OS I'm waiting to get license keys for on the VAX4k500.) Regards, Chris Craft, RetroComputing Nut On Sunday 30 December 2001 05:24, you wrote: <<>> > > Have you tried CMUTEK TCP/IP? It run's "pretty well" under VMS 5.x and > > it is free. CMUTEK is available from ftp://ftp.csus.edu/pub/cmuip/. > > It's the chicken and egg... How to get TCP/IP when you need TCP/IP to get > it... :-) <<>> -- Chris Craft, NOC Meister SpringSips.com ccraft@springsips.com (970)871-0913 x 24 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 03:06:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Tonight's S-100 find detailed inventory References: <20011230045019.21111.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01c191da$628d25c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Have another look at that UART on the MITS board and see if it isn't an AY-5-1013A. The spacing on that P2 connector is probably 0.157" (close enough to 0.154, but ... ) I've got one of those COMUTIME FDC's, but, alas, like you, Ethan, I've got no documentation. It should n[t be too hard to figure out, though. Among the piles and piles of 8" floppies I have in the basement, there is at least one labelled, (by hand) as being a Computime diskette of some sort, though not from the mfg. I also believe I have some source code for the board _somewhere_. Those SSM video boards were pretty popular, though they are capable of only 16 lines of 64 characters (like the TRS-80, among others). I've still got one, but have given/traded/sold away a couple of them. That 24-pin DIP missing from the video board might well have been a character generator. If you scrutinize the circuitry in that region of the board, you might find a shift register and a data path from the RAM through the character generator to the shift register (PISO). If you trace the data path from the RAM, you may find it matches the pinout of either a 2513 (GI) character generator or a 2716 (they're not the same). Whatever you learn about that will probably be helpful. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:50 AM Subject: Tonight's S-100 find detailed inventory > > OK... first of all, let me say that an XOR box weighs a ton. Second, > here's what I have - more cards than a single computer needs. I wish > I hadn't given away _all_ of my 68K S-100 stuff to a friend years ago > (but at least it's in good hands) > > In the backplane when I got it: > > o COMPU/TIME UFDC-1 floppy disk controller, c. 1983 > Labelled jumpers for drives A-D, each with "5/8", "S0" and "S1" > 1 34-pin connector > 1 50-pin connector > WDC FD1795PL-02 FDC chip > no docs > > o COEX 64K static RAM board, c. 1984 > 32 Hitachi M58725P 2Kx8 SRAM chips > no docs (but jumpers are labelled) > > o COMPU/TIME SBC-880 CPU board (c) 1980 > no CPU chip > > Loose boards... > > o QT Computer Systems RAM+65 SRAM board, c. 1981 > 32 2114 SRAMs (16K total) > missing IC49 (near the S-100 fingers, probably a 74LS240 or 74LS244) > labelled DIP switches > no docs > > o Vector Graphic 8K SRAM board, c. 1980 > 64 2102 SRAMs > no docs > > o Seals Electronics SRAM board, (c) 1976 > 64 2102 SRAMs (8K) > no docs > > o SSM VB1C video card, c. 1980 > docs > > o SSM VB2 video card, c. 1979 > chips still under plastic > docs > > o Cromemco TU-ART Digital Interface, c. 1982 > 2 parallel > 2 serial > NIB > docs > > o Vector Graphic Bit Streamer serial card > 8251 SIO chip > no docs > > o MITS 88 UIO "Universal I/O Card"(?) c. 1977 > M6850 > AY-5-10134 > 26-pin Berg-styled connector > 10-pin .154"(?)-spacing single-row connector (P-2) > no docs > > o Unknown-brand mystery card (video?), c. 1979 > 8212 > 2 x 2708 EPROM (each marked 'FW II Gen', one with down arrow, one up) > 4 x 2114-3 SRAMs > 6-pin .1"-spacing single-row connector > U42 missing (24-pin .6" DIP) > no docs > > o SSM CB1A CPU board, c. 1980 > INS8080A > 2 x 8212 > 2 x 2708 (marked "0-3V" and "4.7V") > 2 x 2114 > docs > > o SSM 8080 Monitor V1 docs > command summary > listings > > > So, all in all, a good night's work. I'd love to learn more about > what I have, especially the stuff with no docs. Some of the docs > I do have, have schematics, but some of it is assembly and rudimentary > test/programming instructions. > > I would appreciate any and all tips to online versions of docs for > this stuff. I would also appreciate any tips for getting an OS for > the box with its COMPU/TIME cards. I suppose one way would be to > receive a 5.25" image, reconstitute it and boot the system off of > mini-floppy, then format a disk or two on the 8" floppies and go > from there. > > -ethan > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 12:30:52 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:53 2005 Subject: Tonight's S-100 find detailed inventory In-Reply-To: <001d01c191da$628d25c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011230183052.32047.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > Have another look at that UART on the MITS board and see if it isn't an > AY-5-1013A. Oops... midnight typo. > The spacing on that P2 connector is probably 0.157" (close > enough to 0.154, but ... ) OK... I did not get out the micrometer... > I've got one of those COMUTIME FDC's, but, alas, like you, Ethan, I've > got no documentation. I'm sure that's more common than the reverse. > I also believe I have some source code for the board _somewhere_. If you ever run across it, I'd like to hear it. > Those SSM video boards were pretty popular, though they are capable of > only 16 lines of 64 characters Right... that's in the docs. > That 24-pin DIP missing from the video board might well have been a > character generator. Could be. There isn't one elsewhere on the board, but there are a couple of EPROMs marked "GEN". > ..you may find it matches the pinout of either a 2513 (GI) > character generator or a 2716 (they're not the same). I have a couple of 2513 chips - one or two with this pile and I think one more with my TVT-6. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 03:10:54 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: KWANZA ??? References: <5f.20173e55.295ff7a3@aol.com> Message-ID: <002301c191db$0d593520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:52 AM Subject: Re: Any interest in 5.25 floppy drives or small scsi drives? > Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. > > Anything that gets African-American youth to think of themselves as part of anything at all will be an improvement. If that man-made "holiday" gives them a reason to reflect on the realities of their situation, it's better than if they don't. If having their own midwinter festival helps them to see the similarities between their cultural identities and those of others groups, it's a good thing. (to put it in Martha Stewart's terms) Dick From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sun Dec 30 11:40:18 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: KWANZA ??? In-Reply-To: <002301c191db$0d593520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On 31-Dec-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > If that man-made "holiday" Are there any natural holidays? Solstice and equinoxes might be natural events, but Christmas is not what I'd call "natural". ObClassicmp : Santa gave me an abacus! While this particular one was probably manufactured recently, anything this ancient must be classic :) -Philip From foo at siconic.com Sun Dec 30 12:57:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: OT: Re: KWANZA ??? In-Reply-To: <002301c191db$0d593520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:52 AM > Subject: Re: Any interest in 5.25 floppy drives or small scsi drives? > > > > > Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. I'm all for free thinking and free speech so here's my contribution: That signature is racially offensive and wholly insensitive. I thought with the 9/11 attacks the people of this country were supposed to be more tolerant of the vast number of different cultures and practices that make up the USA? Pfeh. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 03:14:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: S-100 score! References: <20011230045709.22470.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901c191db$7c7e4580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's a lot of stuff that you can "try" with that monitor program, provided you have it running. If you use a PC running ProcommPlus or Hyperterminal, or something on that order, you can build scripts that load software into the S-100's memory and execute them, then save the console output in the capture buffer for later examination at the PC. Procomm Plus will learn the script, keystroke by keystroke as you operate the system from your terminal emulation. Give it some thought! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:57 AM Subject: Re: S-100 score! > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > When you say SMS, do you suppose you could have meant SDS? > > No... sorry... my typo... I meant SSM, as in SSM Microcomputer > Products of San Jose. It's a VB2 and a VB1C (both with manuals) > > > If I were you, I'd leave the unassembled boards unassembled until you're > > sure you need them otherwise. > > Sure. The only thing unassembled is the VB2. > > Looks like the way to go is with the COMPU/TIME CPU and disk controller > and the 64K SRAM board. The rest might be nice in another, less-I/O- > oriented box. Only got one diskette controller, but the other stuff > looks like it could be fed with paper tape at least. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > From Westward_Jersey at msn.com Sun Dec 30 14:01:25 2001 From: Westward_Jersey at msn.com (Westward_Jersey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: CPT 9000 Message-ID: Hi I have a mint condition CPT 9000 (J-Laser) Circa 1988. It is in original condition with Ventura operating in full screen mode. Any offers ? Westward_Jersey@msn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011230/4766685a/attachment.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 30 09:37:29 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs In-Reply-To: <001e01c190fc$7b610a00$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Old Hollywood thinks the world is full of morons when they use this stuff for props - and a good percentage is. I guess we all have to remember that it isn't a documentary, just entertainment and the parts are props for others to ooh-ahh over. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Wayne M. Smith Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:38 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs Just got back from seeing the Royal Tenenbaums. There are a number of scenes that take place in Chas Tenenbaum's (Ben Stiller) office where he still has the computer he used 22 yrs. before (1978) as a young financial whiz. It appears to be a Zenith Z-110 and CRT attaced to - get this - an Apple 5 1/4" external floppy drive! While at least temporally close, the configuration isn't. -W From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 10:31:05 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Old Hollywood thinks the world is full of morons when they use this stuff >for props - and a good percentage is. I guess we all have to remember that >it isn't a documentary, just entertainment and the parts are props for >others to ooh-ahh over. Look at what they did with the Mac Plus in 'Star Trek: The Voyage Home' or the IMSAI 8080 in 'Wargames'. The scenes certainly looked cool though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Sun Dec 30 13:00:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Look at what they did with the Mac Plus in 'Star Trek: The > Voyage Home' or the IMSAI 8080 in 'Wargames'. The scenes certainly > looked cool though. The IMSAI 8080 in Wargames was a real system, with real hardware, and in real life would work just as depicted in the movie (the software functionality excepted). In fact, here it is: http://www.vintage.org/exhibit99.html (Scroll down to the bottom of the page). It's what the David Lightman character did with it in the film that requires one to stretch the imagination a bit (though not by too much). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 14:58:02 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The IMSAI 8080 in Wargames was a real system, with real hardware, and in >real life would work just as depicted in the movie (the software >functionality excepted). In fact, here it is: I knew that it was a real system and supposedly used a prototype modem as a prop as well, but didn't they have another system actually producing the display? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Sun Dec 30 12:52:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs In-Reply-To: <001e01c190fc$7b610a00$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > Just got back from seeing the Royal Tenenbaums. There are a number of > scenes that take place in Chas Tenenbaum's (Ben Stiller) office where > he still has the computer he used 22 yrs. before (1978) as a young > financial whiz. It appears to be a Zenith Z-110 and CRT attaced to - > get this - an Apple 5 1/4" external floppy drive! While at least > temporally close, the configuration isn't. See? If they'd consulted with me I could've saved them from this nerdly embarrassment ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Dec 30 13:55:55 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs In-Reply-To: References: <001e01c190fc$7b610a00$8b37cd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C2F1CEB.18738.47EC627@localhost> While I agree that H-wood views their audience as morons I must differ as to the Techs that work on the films. As in any industry there are incompetants, but most Propmasters and Art Directors are amazingly knowledgeable. While we as collectors may quibble over the computers used for a particular era, these techs must know and study up on EVERY aspect of the era that is represented in a film. I have worked with some of these guys and am awed by thier knowledge and the amount of research they do long before the actual fiming begins. They are limited by budgets and must sometimes fudge the actual props depending on cost and availability but for the most part the non-specialist won't catch it. Lawrence > Old Hollywood thinks the world is full of morons when they use this stuff > for props - and a good percentage is. I guess we all have to remember that > it isn't a documentary, just entertainment and the parts are props for > others to ooh-ahh over. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Wayne M. Smith > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:38 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Royal Tenenbaums - Vintage PCs > > > Just got back from seeing the Royal Tenenbaums. There are a number of > scenes that take place in Chas Tenenbaum's (Ben Stiller) office where he > still has the computer he used 22 yrs. before (1978) as a young > financial whiz. It appears to be a Zenith Z-110 and CRT attaced to - > get this - an Apple 5 1/4" external floppy drive! While at least > temporally close, the configuration isn't. > > -W > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 30 09:47:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It has an SCSI interface? I've had printers with IEE-488, serial and of course many types on network NICS. Weird, but then I haven't really messed with Next's. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Louis Schulman Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 7:34 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: NEXT Color Printer find Today I picked up a NEXT Color Printer in a thrift shop. From what I have found, it is a PostScript color printer using a Cannon Bubblejet engine, with a SCSI interface (altough it appears to have a standard LPT Centronics interface as well). It is Model N2005. It has the extremely interesting serial number of ACS-00000017. The machine, aside from being dusty, is like new. I don't have a NEXT system, and I have not tried hooking it up to my PC (yet). Does anyone know if this will work (using a generic PS driver)? In any event, if this is the NEXT item on your list to complete your NEXT system, I would be happy to discuss a deal. Louis From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 10:42:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It has an SCSI interface? I've had printers with IEE-488, serial and of >course many types on network NICS. Weird, but then I haven't really messed >with Next's. We've got some odd Kodak printers at work, connected to some older PowerMac's, that use SCSI for the interface as well. My guess is that, at least in this case, the Mac printer port wasn't fast enough for their liking so they put it on the SCSI port instead. I don't see where that would be the case with the NeXT though given the very high-speed nature of it's printer port. To do full Postscript Level II at 400dpi and 8ppm (NeXT Laser printer) with all the work being done by the host CPU is going to take a pretty fast serial interface. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 13:32:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Dec 30, 1 11:42:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 946 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011230/7f7a1250/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 15:07:47 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Did some NeXTs ever use the 'raw video' interface to the laser printer? >We discussed this interface on the list about a month ago, it's a very >low-level interface where you have a signal that controls the laser >directly. Once the host has started a piece of paper moving through the >printer, it has to then send data to the laser control input in real >time, at about 11Mbps (IIRC). Everything I've ever seen concerning the printer's interface refers to it as a high-speed serial interface, though I've rarely seen actual throughput figures. I have no doubt that the commands sent out it are fairly low level though considering the lack of onboard intelligence on the printer. It doesn't even power on until the NeXT is powered on. The interface also provides for some status back to the CPU as well. Due to the host CPU needing to do all the work, I would think that the amount of data streaming out to the printer engine, as well as strobes checking printer status, would require a good deal more bandwidth on the interface than a more standard connection. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 30 12:28:39 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: ; from rhblakeman@kih.net on Sun, Dec 30, 2001 at 16:47:40 CET References: Message-ID: <20011230192839.G14841@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.30 16:47 Russ Blakeman wrote: > It has an SCSI interface? I've had printers with IEE-488, serial and > of course many types on network NICS. Weird, but then I haven't > really messed with Next's. My Apple LaserWriter IIg has also SCSI besides AppleTalk, serial and Ethernet. You can connect a disk to that SCSI port to load fonts on it. Only a few printers can be feed with the print data via SCSI. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com Sun Dec 30 10:54:20 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <3C2E9AE3.5060901@texoma.net> from "James L. Rice" at "Dec 29, 2001 10:41:07 pm" Message-ID: <200112301654.fBUGsKc04172@bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com> > My NeXT Color Printer, a model N2004 has both a SCSI in and out as well > as a Centronics style parallel port. It S/N is in the 2600 range (I'm > too busy to look right now). Was that SCSI to add a font disk to the printer or to actually talk to the printer....? I assume the former...= Bill From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 30 12:15:26 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find References: <200112301654.fBUGsKc04172@bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <003501c1915d$f5ee3660$ab469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pechter" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: Re: NEXT Color Printer find > > My NeXT Color Printer, a model N2004 has both a SCSI in and out as well > > as a Centronics style parallel port. It S/N is in the 2600 range (I'm > > too busy to look right now). > > > Was that SCSI to add a font disk to the printer or to actually talk to > the printer....? > > I assume the former...= I would imagine it was to talk to the printer. IIRC early Macs used SCSI printers, too. Pretty neat. I wonder how hard a SCSI <-> parallel interface would be to build. > > Bill Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 13:22:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Louis Schulman" at Dec 29, 1 10:54:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011230/86eef2a0/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Sun Dec 30 15:03:01 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:22:25 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: #> # Both of the #> #centronics ports on the printer are SCSI. I've never seen one that has #> #a parellel port. #> #> Well, you are mistaken about something. This printer has _three_ Centronics ports, two are SCSI, and the #> other is smaller, the size of a parallel port. My theory is that this is the difference between a Model 2004, #> which is documented in web literature, and Model 2005, of which there may have been few examples (since #> this one is evidently number 17). # #I've never seen this printer, but I think you're a little confused. # #The Centronics interface is a de facto standard for a parallel interface #to a printer, as originally used by the Centronics company. It's not SCSI #or anything related to it. To say you have a Centronics port that is SCSI #is meaningless IMHO. # #What I think you mean is that you have 3 'blue ribbon' connectors on the #unit. 2 are 50 pin (which was often used for SCSI-1 interfaces), the #other is 36 pin (which is a standard for the Centronics parallel #interface). # #My guess is that the 36 pin connector _is_ a Centronics parallel port, #but I'd probably not just plug it in on such a rare printer without doing #some further tests. One test that's easy to do is to trace which pins of #the connectors go to logic ground (this is generally easy enough to find #inside) and see if they match up with any known interface pinout. # #-tony # With all due respect, I disagree. The term "Centronics", whatever its original meaning, refers to a type of connector. Looking at the Jameco catalog, for example, the catalog pictures 14, 24, 36 and 50 contact male and female connectors, all referred to as "Centronics". I have never heard the term "blue ribbon" used to describe these connectors. My understanding is that Centronics was the first to use this type of connector on its parallel printers, so when it became the standard type connector the name stuck. Parallel port nomenclature now has a number of different terms, based on function and standard, not type of connector. SCSI connectors are sometimes Centronics type, but not always. In any event, the "36-pin Centronics Connector" is a parallel connection, and the PC was able to talk to this printer. BTW, this type of connector, regardless of the number of pins, when made for ribbon cables, is referred to by Jameco as "IDC Centronics Connector". Louis From louiss at gate.net Sun Dec 30 15:07:22 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <1009689211.29368.5.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: On 30 Dec 2001 00:13:27 -0500, Jeffrey H. Ingber wrote: #Very interesting. Mine definitely has only 2 50-pin Centronics ports. #The serial number is 00000078, and is an N2004. What makes this even #more interesting is that NeXT's didn't have a parallel port (that I know #of). # #There's an easy way to test if a) That's a parallel port, and b) it has #an on-board PostScript processor. Just connect it to a PC and send some #PostScript to the printer. That would make a nice inexpensive #PostScript color printer if this works, as ink is still available. # Ok, here's the report. The printer works, and runs the self-test (in full color). Still has ink! The 36-pin port is a parallel port, and does receive data from the PC. You select from SCSI/Parallel on an LCD menu on the printer. The printer did not understand PostScript. However, on the printer, there are a number of different "Modes" and other options that are selectable, and without a manual, it isn't clear what they do. One could be PostScript, I'll have to do some more tests. But plain ascii sent from the PC worked fine. Louis From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Dec 30 09:40:54 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: International Extensions Message-ID: <3C2F3586.99440129@verizon.net> All right, I've got one for the international users ... Can anyone fill in or add to any of the international extensions you sometimes see on URL's ? The ones I'm aware of ( but still have some blanks in ) so far are ... .ca - Canada .ch - .cn - .de - Germany .es - Spain .fm - .fr - France .ge - Georgia, former USSR .hk - Hong Kong ??? .is - Iceland .it - Italy .jp - Japan .kr - Korea .nl - Netherlands .nu - .pl - Poland ??? .ru - Rumania ??? .se - Sweden .uk - Great Britain From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sun Dec 30 11:03:35 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: International Extensions References: <3C2F3586.99440129@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3C2F48E7.5CB5DC8A@tinyworld.co.uk> Ian Koller wrote: > > All right, I've got one for the international users ... > > Can anyone fill in or add to any of the international > extensions you sometimes see on URL's ? The ones I'm > aware of ( but still have some blanks in ) so far are ... The definitive list is: http://www.iana.org/cctld/cctld-whois.htm From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 30 11:04:34 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: International Extensions References: <3C2F3586.99440129@verizon.net> Message-ID: <006901c19154$0edb0680$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >.is - Iceland .id - Indonesia >.it - Italy John A. From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 30 11:12:23 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: International Extensions In-Reply-To: <3C2F3586.99440129@verizon.net> Message-ID: see the list at Webopedia at the following URL: http://www.webopedia.com/quick_ref/topleveldomains/countrycodeA-E.html sorry about any html that anyone might get thanks to outlook adding it even though my ClassicCmp mail is set to text. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ian Koller Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 9:41 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: International Extensions All right, I've got one for the international users ... Can anyone fill in or add to any of the international extensions you sometimes see on URL's ? The ones I'm aware of ( but still have some blanks in ) so far are ... .ca - Canada .ch - .cn - .de - Germany .es - Spain .fm - .fr - France .ge - Georgia, former USSR .hk - Hong Kong ??? .is - Iceland .it - Italy .jp - Japan .kr - Korea .nl - Netherlands .nu - .pl - Poland ??? .ru - Rumania ??? .se - Sweden .uk - Great Britain From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Dec 30 11:51:11 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: International Extensions Message-ID: .mx is for Mexico Paxton From hansp at aconit.org Sun Dec 30 12:38:01 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: International Extensions References: <3C2F3586.99440129@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3C2F5F09.1050800@aconit.org> Ian Koller wrote: > > All right, I've got one for the international users ... > > Can anyone fill in or add to any of the international > extensions you sometimes see on URL's ? The ones I'm > aware of ( but still have some blanks in ) so far are ... Google throws up : http://www1.ics.uci.edu/pub/websoft/wwwstat/country-codes.txt but see also http://www1.ics.uci.edu/pub/websoft/wwwstat/domains.pl A quick glance failed to find 'eu' which I have seen used for some european organizations, so the list is obviously not definitive but as the comment in th e.pl file above indicates the names do change. -- hbp From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Dec 30 08:51:06 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? References: <20011229235139.PKZH14445.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <3C2F29DA.3E7BCD21@verizon.net> > because our customer base are still using 486, pentiums and older > machines, and many are unwilling to jump for low-end 20GB for their > machines Maybe you need to explain to them that if they don't pay the fiddler, they just might have to sit this dance out. > Makers should have kept selling 5GB to 15GB range How many people would expect/demand a lower price on these than a 20 Gb just because they're smaller. And if that price level weren't going to be profitable to the manufacturer, hey, production halts. Anybody that doesn't like it can produce their own. No manufacturer is going to run a charity operation. jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > I prefer Quantum drives myself, but I guess it's more like the debate > > between Ford and Chevy. I have only one Seagate, in this Linux machine > > and it works just as well as all of my Quantums. I'm more leery of the > > new drives, as they seem not to have the quality of just a couple years > > ago. Guess it is the marketing arm of Maxtor now driving quality. > > > > Gary Hildebrand > > Maxtor is good maker. > > I rest your worries, I work part time for years for pc shop is > selling machines with all kinds of HDs, IBM, Qs, Maxs, Seagates, WDs > etc. We recently kicked out WD lineup from our new machines due to > quality, compatiablity issues (very serious), Q lineup shrank to > uselessness due to LCTs and CX-KA era screwups by our supplier, but > newer ones like KX, KS and Max's Qs are good so far but no longer > available. > > Max and IBM are what we have left to choose from for using with new > machines and parts we sell. Dodged the 75GXP bullet since we > couldn't sell these at prices customers is willing to pay for given > capacity till IBM came out with 60GXP and Max w/ 7200rpm. Prices > on both went below $200 for 20GB are what we able to include them > with our new systems and for parts. > > So far for last 4 years we have good record regearding the Max, Q and > IBM (aside from 75GXP we didn't use due to prices back then). > > What drives us nuts we cannot get IDE Seagate drives from that same > suppiler that used to sell those in past till 9GB years ago. > Seagate are also good drives but we cannot obtain them. I'm > mystified at that change. > > Makers should have kept selling 5GB to 15GB range because our > customer base are still using 486, pentiums and older machines, and > many are unwilling to jump for low-end 20GB for their machines to > replace overstuffed HD or ones that failed. Even the low end 20GB > 5.4K rpm is decently inexpesnive but these will cause problems in > these older machines. FYI: Used little HDs (2GB to 10GB) ones are > in demand around here and our used HD shelf of those kind are bare > and the other supplier specializing in selling pulls or NOS on > older parts dried up or disappeared. > > Cheers, > > Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Dec 30 06:12:11 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: <3C2F29DA.3E7BCD21@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20011230170656.TRSW10118.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > > because our customer base are still using 486, pentiums and older > > machines, and many are unwilling to jump for low-end 20GB for their > > machines > > > Maybe you need to explain to them that if they don't pay the > fiddler, they just might have to sit this dance out. I did touch on the issues w/ drives greater than 8GB on older machines including that older pentiums. I have seen that even 10GB made machine's bios choke (lock up) or bizzare compatiablities. Promise fasttrak ATA100 PCI costs about $60-75 here. AT to ATX transition is still ongoing and new AT surper7 w/ AGP is about 120 and cpu for it if customer wants bit of upgrade is about 70-100 (P5 233mmx thru AMD K6-2 500, $15 ball bearing fan/heatsink, $40 for 128MB SDRAM. Don't forget we charge fixed servicing charge of $35. Basically, new body car rolling on 4 10" tires w/ tired parts from other old car stuffed into it pulling along that heap with screaming Geo's 1.0L 3 cylinder engine. Got the point yet? Recently lot of people broke out of woods after we started selling special package that supplier unexpectedly found susplus of their unsold stuff. ATX case w/ 250W PSU, K7M w/ onboard audio, yes that crappy but good enough for them! :-)), heatsink, Athlon 800 for $220. Does work w/ original win95 if you don't mind no USB. M$ bastards :-P We have seen that same thing happen with late amd 486dx40 and SP97-V era when prices on cpu and board become reasonable. Not anymore now thanks to ATX cases and lack of socket A and 370 for AT cases except for horrible pcchips boards that we don't touch. Average upgrade prices customers pays is about 300 which is about right for their income tax refund. I found out soon after (we were straight Award bios user for eons, FYI.) on K7M's AMI PnP is broken but we managed to expect that. :-) No small wonder AMI is still minority because they didn't clean up their "broken" PnP. Award got it right in 486 PCI era, no wonder Asus didn't went for other types of bios. Here's the typical situation: A happy AMI machine, simply add a PCI card will upset all other attached resources means we had to go though hardware detection all over again on everything else not just that new part recently added. Award corrrectly functions and winblows detected just that new hardware we added, easy life. Spending new parts (over $100 and up) on $200 beaters is same idea for older computers. I't all to do with mystries of the customers' brains and we can't bend their ears around reality or else some of them may spook and ruin our reputation. > > Makers should have kept selling 5GB to 15GB range > How many people would expect/demand a lower price on these than > a 20 Gb just because they're smaller. And if that price level snip Hehehe... I don't mean lower prices. Say, same price point on that range as 20GB for little new ones. Heck, when we had reseller who sells pulls we had brisk business there and everyone are satisfied. I kept bugging my boss and boss knows we need another source to buy those pulls. > jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > > I prefer Quantum drives myself, but I guess it's more like the debate > > > between Ford and Chevy. I have only one Seagate, in this Linux machine > > > Gary Hildebrand When we said selling Max for years we mean that because we depend on reliablity and compatilbity to keep our reputation. Seagate is being kicked for screwing around with bios on Barracuda IV that gave awful performance in raid array. WD is thrown out also because we had compatablity problems earlier on last year and this year on and most recently people is beating up WD for screwing them w/ a bad bios mid way on current drives that had good bios. In a nutshell, we have been doing fine w/ Maxtor for 4 years so far and RMA on those is very low per year, say 1 to 3 per year. Recently we started selling IBM drives because prices became reasonable that what customers is willing to pay for. Don't forget that along with this fuss, we sell new machines along w/ new monitor and all that trimmings also. Cheers, Wizard PS: Cirrus logic is still a problem on some hard drives especially if HD makers bios is not done correctly, what a POS. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 03:18:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? References: <20011229235139.PKZH14445.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3C2F29DA.3E7BCD21@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003901c191dc$0b7600c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Another thing to ponder is that the drive makers didn't have to do much to make the jump in capacity other than modifying the read/write channel. When they went to MR heads, their capacity was immediately more than 10x what it previously was with essentially the same HDA. Once the track density was adjusted, another 5-8x increase was had. All for essentially no more than a switch in head technology. Perhaps a 2 GB drive is realistic in the >1" format ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Koller" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 2:51 PM Subject: Re: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? > > > > because our customer base are still using 486, pentiums and older > > machines, and many are unwilling to jump for low-end 20GB for their > > machines > > > Maybe you need to explain to them that if they don't pay the > fiddler, they just might have to sit this dance out. > > > > Makers should have kept selling 5GB to 15GB range > > > How many people would expect/demand a lower price on these than > a 20 Gb just because they're smaller. And if that price level > weren't going to be profitable to the manufacturer, hey, production > halts. Anybody that doesn't like it can produce their own. No > manufacturer is going to run a charity operation. > > > > > jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > > I prefer Quantum drives myself, but I guess it's more like the debate > > > between Ford and Chevy. I have only one Seagate, in this Linux machine > > > and it works just as well as all of my Quantums. I'm more leery of the > > > new drives, as they seem not to have the quality of just a couple years > > > ago. Guess it is the marketing arm of Maxtor now driving quality. > > > > > > Gary Hildebrand > > > > Maxtor is good maker. > > > > I rest your worries, I work part time for years for pc shop is > > selling machines with all kinds of HDs, IBM, Qs, Maxs, Seagates, WDs > > etc. We recently kicked out WD lineup from our new machines due to > > quality, compatiablity issues (very serious), Q lineup shrank to > > uselessness due to LCTs and CX-KA era screwups by our supplier, but > > newer ones like KX, KS and Max's Qs are good so far but no longer > > available. > > > > Max and IBM are what we have left to choose from for using with new > > machines and parts we sell. Dodged the 75GXP bullet since we > > couldn't sell these at prices customers is willing to pay for given > > capacity till IBM came out with 60GXP and Max w/ 7200rpm. Prices > > on both went below $200 for 20GB are what we able to include them > > with our new systems and for parts. > > > > So far for last 4 years we have good record regearding the Max, Q and > > IBM (aside from 75GXP we didn't use due to prices back then). > > > > What drives us nuts we cannot get IDE Seagate drives from that same > > suppiler that used to sell those in past till 9GB years ago. > > Seagate are also good drives but we cannot obtain them. I'm > > mystified at that change. > > > > Makers should have kept selling 5GB to 15GB range because our > > customer base are still using 486, pentiums and older machines, and > > many are unwilling to jump for low-end 20GB for their machines to > > replace overstuffed HD or ones that failed. Even the low end 20GB > > 5.4K rpm is decently inexpesnive but these will cause problems in > > these older machines. FYI: Used little HDs (2GB to 10GB) ones are > > in demand around here and our used HD shelf of those kind are bare > > and the other supplier specializing in selling pulls or NOS on > > older parts dried up or disappeared. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Wizard > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 30 09:37:27 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: <20011229224009.90956.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've always had better service from Seagate. Quantum is now absorbed into Maxtor and I pretty much have had a lot of problems with IDE and SCSI drives by Quantum. Unless a Seagate is dead or damaged, I never have problems with them - have 8 ST410800N 9.1 SCSI FH drives on my server and all run AOK. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:40 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially equivalent, or is one better than the other? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 10:29:05 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I've always had better service from Seagate. Quantum is now absorbed into >Maxtor and I pretty much have had a lot of problems with IDE and SCSI drives >by Quantum. Unless a Seagate is dead or damaged, I never have problems with >them - have 8 ST410800N 9.1 SCSI FH drives on my server and all run AOK. While I tend to use IBM drives when I have the choice, I've always had good luck with Quantum drives. They seemed to work even in systems that were a bit picky about the drive used. I still have a number of Seagate drives in use here, but have had more of them fail than other types of SCSI drives made in the last 10 or so years. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com Sun Dec 30 10:50:02 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: from Russ Blakeman at "Dec 30, 2001 09:37:27 am" Message-ID: <200112301650.fBUGo2w04062@bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com> > I've always had better service from Seagate. Quantum is now absorbed into > Maxtor and I pretty much have had a lot of problems with IDE and SCSI drives > by Quantum. Unless a Seagate is dead or damaged, I never have problems with > them - have 8 ST410800N 9.1 SCSI FH drives on my server and all run AOK. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:40 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? > > > > A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both > Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially > equivalent, or is one better than the other? > > -ethan > > I've had mixed luck with the XP32150's... I think the 32550N's would last longer. I've got a bad 32150 (wide SCSI differential version) downstairs... I've also got a bunch of Quantum Fireball drives that you can't kill. The problem seems to be based on which model Quantum -- some are good some are dogs. I thought all the IBM's were great until I heard about the problems with their 60gb and up stuff... Bill Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 30 14:44:56 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: <200112301650.fBUGo2w04062@bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com> References: from Russ Blakeman at "Dec 30, 2001 09:37:27 am" Message-ID: Bill Pechter wrote: >I thought all the IBM's were great until I heard about the problems with >their 60gb and up stuff... Ditto. Unfortuantly it's not just the 60+GB drives. I've got a 40GB Deskstar drive that is supposed to be one of the problem drives in my old Linux box. Even worse, I didn't find out about the problems until after buying a 60GB drive for my PowerMac. As a result of learning of the problems I've migrated the data on the Linux box to a new system, and I'm using the 60GB disk on the Mac as a *really* big scratch disk. I'm guessing the reason I've not had much trouble with the disk on the Linux box is becuase I only use the system about 1 weekend in 4. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 30 09:37:28 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: <15406.19161.524583.988305@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have a 32550 on my PowerMac 7100/80 and it' sjust hums right along. I pulled an Apple branded Quantum out, made lots of noise and would occasionally squeal, eventually locked up. What I don't care for in Seagate's line is re-labeled Conner stock. I feel that Conner was probably better than Quantum but they still failed a lot more than all of my WD's, Seagates, Micropolis and Fujitsu drives. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 5:00 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? On December 29, Ethan Dicks wrote: > A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both > Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially > equivalent, or is one better than the other? I can't tell you anything about the XP32150s, but I've set up probably three hundred ST32550Ns and have had very good luck with them. Their write caches ship set to "disabled" by default, though, so it's usually a good idea to stick it on something that'll allow you to edit the contents of Mode Page 6 to turn it on, if my memory is correct. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 30 15:43:14 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: KWANZA ??? References: Message-ID: <004101c1917a$fc713600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > That signature is...offensive and wholly insensitive. Offend unto others as you could sense them offending unto you. (The argument that fails for certain types of people.) John A. Yes, I believe in Kwanza. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 30 16:01:36 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: Asante NetExtender Hub Message-ID: I've no idea how on-topic it is, but... This last week I rescued a "Asante NetExtender Hub" from the trash. In looking at it, it would appear to be a combination Ethernet Transciever/4-Port 10BaseT Hub (yet it's smaller than most 10BaseT Trascievers). Is it what I think, or is it something different. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fdebros at verizon.net Sun Dec 30 16:01:57 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: On optical SUN mice: Last F/U In-Reply-To: <3C2F5F09.1050800@aconit.org> Message-ID: <000001c1917d$99f3dd40$6501a8c0@fred> Ok, after a few days of trial and error with all sorts of shiny and glittery Christmas wrappings: The best way to make a pad for the SUN optical mice is to print the mousepad.ps file on a transparency, and mount it on one of those semi rigid aluminum plates such as used for cheapie (Christmas!) food trays. Mount it UPSIDE DOWN of course, so as not to scratch the print side too soon. Maybe laminate the whole shebang? Add a print of the pad in the back so you can quickly copy it again if the first one "scratches out". Make sure the felts under the mouse are there. Type 4 and type 5 mice, both work with that contraption. Now if only there was a pgm to accelerate the movements like in windows mice... Fred From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 30 16:06:26 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <003501c1915d$f5ee3660$ab469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > I would imagine it was to talk to the printer. IIRC early Macs used > SCSI printers, too. Pretty neat. I wonder how hard a SCSI <-> > parallel interface would be to build. I seem to remember seeing a few companies offer these kinds of bridges, but I doubt they would work for anything other then a printer. I have a SCSI <-> ethernet bridge around here somewhere. I think it was made for older Macs that lacked nubus or another means of expansion. It reports itself as a disk device, but I haven't done much with it yet. -Toth From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Dec 30 16:12:44 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <20011230192839.G14841@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Guess even after working piles of printers I can still find out new things... -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jochen Kunz Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:29 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: NEXT Color Printer find On 2001.12.30 16:47 Russ Blakeman wrote: > It has an SCSI interface? I've had printers with IEE-488, serial and > of course many types on network NICS. Weird, but then I haven't > really messed with Next's. My Apple LaserWriter IIg has also SCSI besides AppleTalk, serial and Ethernet. You can connect a disk to that SCSI port to load fonts on it. Only a few printers can be feed with the print data via SCSI. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 30 16:12:48 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: International Extensions In-Reply-To: Ian Koller "International Extensions" (Dec 30, 10:40) References: <3C2F3586.99440129@verizon.net> Message-ID: <10112302212.ZM11545@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 30, 10:40, Ian Koller wrote: > All right, I've got one for the international users ... > > Can anyone fill in or add to any of the international > extensions you sometimes see on URL's ? The ones I'm > aware of ( but still have some blanks in ) so far are ... .ch is Switzerland, .cn is China. I don't know about .fm. .ru is Russia. .ro is Romania Just look up the ISO 3166 code list, or the list of ccTLDs (country code top level domains): http://www.iana.org/cctld/cctld-whois.htm -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 16:33:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Louis Schulman" at Dec 30, 1 04:03:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2493 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011230/7817ef37/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 16:40:05 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The printer did not understand PostScript. However, on the printer, >there are a number of different "Modes" >and other options that are selectable, and without a manual, it >isn't clear what they do. One could be >PostScript, I'll have to do some more tests. But plain ascii sent >from the PC worked fine. From a recent post in COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE, here is some additional info on the printer: ---------- Lines: 20 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: willadams@aol.com (William F. Adams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware Date: 28 Dec 2001 21:12:04 GMT References: <6%KW7.137025$8w3.26609673@typhoon.kc.rr.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Wanted: NeXT Color Printer Message-ID: <20011228161204.15528.00001377@mb-ci.aol.com> ``sales'' asked: >Wanted to buy: NeXT Color Printer. Also want information on this >printer. - Specifications It's a re-badged Canon BJC-800/820 with SCSI connector and logic board for same. CMYK, 360 x 360 dpi. Apple also licensed this design as the Apple Color Printer, and Lexmark sold it as the 4079 At one time, Canon Japan had a NeXTstep driver for the BJC-800/20 on their FTP site.... William ----------- -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 16:39:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:54 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Dec 30, 1 04:07:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1995 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011230/80105377/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 30 16:49:13 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: "Louis Schulman" "Re: NEXT Color Printer find" (Dec 30, 16:03) References: Message-ID: <10112302249.ZM11575@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 30, 16:03, Louis Schulman wrote: > With all due respect, I disagree. The term "Centronics", whatever its original meaning, refers to a type of > connector. Looking at the Jameco catalog, for example, the catalog pictures 14, 24, 36 and 50 contact > male and female connectors, all referred to as "Centronics". I have never heard the term "blue ribbon" used > to describe these connectors. > > My understanding is that Centronics was the first to use this type of connector on its parallel printers, so > when it became the standard type connector the name stuck. No, Tony is correct. Just because a name is commonly (mis)used in a particular way, doesn't mean it's correct, especially in catalogues. This discussion has come up before in relation to "DB9" connectors etc. A Centronics connector is a specific size, 36pins. The other sizes (14, 20, 24, 50, etc) are NOT Centronics connectors. The 24-way is sometimes referred to as an IEEE-488 connector. Does that make all the other sizes IEEE-488 connectors too? The common misuse is fairly recent, too. 50-pin conectors in that shape have been around for a long time, as SCSI connectors, as telco connectors, and for datacomms. Only in the last 5-8 years have I seen them referred to as Centronics. > BTW, this type of connector, regardless of the number of pins, when made for ribbon cables, is referred to > by Jameco as "IDC Centronics Connector". So they're misusing the term, that's all. If they'd said "Centronics-style" that would be different. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 30 17:05:14 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Asante NetExtender Hub In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Asante NetExtender Hub" (Dec 30, 14:01) References: Message-ID: <10112302305.ZM11618@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 30, 14:01, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've no idea how on-topic it is, but... This last week I rescued a "Asante > NetExtender Hub" from the trash. In looking at it, it would appear to be a > combination Ethernet Transciever/4-Port 10BaseT Hub (yet it's smaller than > most 10BaseT Trascievers). > > Is it what I think, or is it something different. It's a small 5-port repeater, with one of the ports being AUI. It's meant to extend an existing hub, but it can be used as stand-alone. It's line-powered, too, I think. So you might need to have something plugged into the AUI port (eg a computer with an AUI drop cable). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dlw at trailingedge.com Sun Dec 30 17:12:28 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Apple 2gs boards, what are they? Message-ID: <3C2F4AFC.20416.5E7522@localhost> Picked up some Apple IIgs boards yesterday and I need some help with them. First is a Q-RAM GS memory board. This looks like it has 4 meg on it and the only thing here I'd like to know is what the 2 switches are for and what sizes of simms will it support. Any doc would be helpful. There others I'm not sure what they are. The first is labeled as "Quickie Controller" "Vitesse Inc." "P/N 121489" There is a cable that goes to one of those round plugs like the the serial and printer plugs on the IIgs. What's the official name of those connectors? The other is from Apple but I don't know what it is. It has a cable off the back to a 25 pin connector. On the board is "Apple Computer 820-0153-A" Over one set of chips it says something about "sandwich II". I don't know any of the chips on it (never was great at IDing more than a handful of chips). Could post pics if it would help. Anyone know anything on any of these boards? Thanks. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From owad at applefritter.com Sun Dec 30 20:49:45 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Apple 2gs boards, what are they? In-Reply-To: <3C2F4AFC.20416.5E7522@localhost> References: <3C2F4AFC.20416.5E7522@localhost> Message-ID: <20011231024945.8167@mail.earthlink.net> >There others I'm not sure what they are. The first is labeled as >"Quickie Controller" "Vitesse Inc." "P/N 121489" There is a cable >that goes to one of those round plugs like the the serial and printer >plugs on the IIgs. What's the official name of those connectors? That's the controller card for Vitesse's Quickie Hand Scanner. The connector is a mini Din-8. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Dec 30 21:56:27 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Apple 2gs boards, what are they? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/30/2001 10:27:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, owad@applefritter.com writes: << >There others I'm not sure what they are. The first is labeled as >"Quickie Controller" "Vitesse Inc." "P/N 121489" There is a cable >that goes to one of those round plugs like the the serial and printer >plugs on the IIgs. What's the official name of those connectors? That's the controller card for Vitesse's Quickie Hand Scanner. The connector is a mini Din-8. >> ADB cables, or the same as Svideo? From dlw at trailingedge.com Sun Dec 30 22:49:24 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Apple 2gs boards, what are they? In-Reply-To: <20011231024945.8167@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3C2F4AFC.20416.5E7522@localhost> Message-ID: <3C2F99F4.27158.192F6E9@localhost> On 30 Dec 2001, at 21:49, Tom Owad wrote: > That's the controller card for Vitesse's Quickie Hand Scanner. Then I suspect I'm missing an important part, the scanner. Picked it up in a thrift but the parts were scattered. It was listed as 6 parts and I found the cpu, monitor, 2 3.5" drives and figured the other two parts where the keyboard and mouse which were nowhere to be found. Since I was mostly just interested in the cards I picked it up anyway. Now it sounds like that card isn't much use to me. Now to figure out what this other one is. > The connector is a mini Din-8. Ah, thanks. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From jwbirdsa at picarefy.com Sun Dec 30 17:21:42 2001 From: jwbirdsa at picarefy.com (jwbirdsa@picarefy.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment Message-ID: <20011230232142.25420.qmail@picarefy.picarefy.com> Supposing one has a farm of older, relatively slower machines (Sun-2's, Sun-3's, early SPARCs, 386es, very small VAXen, 68k-based Macs, etc.) running various Unixes (mostly NetBSD), networked together and connected to the Net. What does one do with it? I've been trying to think of some interesting, moderately useful distributed-computing project that they could sit and crank away at and haven't come up with much of anything. All the distributed projects that I know of are distributed because even fast machines aren't enough by themselves -- a trailing-edge farm can't make a useful contribution. If network Tierra (an artificial-life research project) had ever come to pass, that would have been a superb application for these beasts. But it didn't. Ideas, anyone? Please? --James B. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 30 19:13:27 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment References: <20011230232142.25420.qmail@picarefy.picarefy.com> Message-ID: <00d301c19198$5b2e44e0$ab469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 06:21 PM Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment > Supposing one has a farm of older, relatively slower machines (Sun-2's, > Sun-3's, early SPARCs, 386es, very small VAXen, 68k-based Macs, etc.) > running various Unixes (mostly NetBSD), networked together and connected > to the Net. What does one do with it? > > I've been trying to think of some interesting, moderately useful > distributed-computing project that they could sit and crank away at > and haven't come up with much of anything. All the distributed projects > that I know of are distributed because even fast machines aren't enough by > themselves -- a trailing-edge farm can't make a useful contribution. Hey-- I'm there too! I've got thousands of kilowatt/mips in the basement that currentlty sit idle for lack of a Goal. I've got some lovely plans for different boxen, but without something to work towards I just don't have the motivation. > > If network Tierra (an artificial-life research project) had ever come to > pass, that would have been a superb application for these beasts. But it > didn't. Huh, this sounds neat. Looks like the pokemon project is still active-- evolve yer electrons! http://www.his.atr.co.jp/~ray/pubs/alife7a/index.html > > Ideas, anyone? Please? Non-portable space heating? Concrete slab compression testing? The possibilities are endless! :) > > --James B. Bob From Golemancd at aol.com Sun Dec 30 20:34:01 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment Message-ID: <165.60e6c80.29612899@aol.com> what kind a processors r those that u have u say mips From Golemancd at aol.com Sun Dec 30 20:35:20 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment Message-ID: <41.16067ae2.296128e8@aol.com> build a multiprocessor unit that runs bots From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 30 10:22:41 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment References: <41.16067ae2.296128e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C2F3F51.F3BC225E@jetnet.ab.ca> Golemancd@aol.com wrote: > > build a multiprocessor unit that runs bots Nope -- spam filter ... No wait you need a bigger network. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From red at bears.org Sun Dec 30 17:29:44 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > This sounds suspiciously like the Canon 'video' interface. Just out of > curiousity, what connector is used (the Canon standard one is a DC37-S on > the printer). DE9F coming out of the back of the NeXT. I want to say the data rate of the printer port is 1.5 Mbit/sec, but I can't remember for certain and it may very well be 11 Mbit/sec instead. I'm nearly certain the exact rate is mentioned in either "The NeXT Book" or in the comp.sys.next.hardware FAQ. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 18:20:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Dec 30, 1 06:29:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/bc45430d/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 18:38:41 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > >> This sounds suspiciously like the Canon 'video' interface. Just out of >> curiousity, what connector is used (the Canon standard one is a DC37-S on >> the printer). > >DE9F coming out of the back of the NeXT. Of course, r. is right...I should've looked on the back of my Cube prior to suggesting that it was a DE-9M in my previous post. That type of thing is why I generally put disclaimers with any info I post from memory! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 18:04:20 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Everything I've ever seen concerning the printer's interface >> refers to it as a high-speed serial interface, though I've rarely > >Which the Canon 'video' interface technically is. You send a serial bit >stream to the laser driver. With no framing or any other kind of protocol. I saved a Usenet post a couple of years ago concerning the NeXT laser printer and it described the operation as: A video signal is sent to the printer on the 'Data In' line and a clock signal is sent on the CLK line. No start, stop, parity, delays or other extra bits. It was also suggested that the 'Data Out' lines provided the various status indicators such as paper out, no paper, no toner, open printer, etc. >There's a serial clock/data pair for status (paper out, jam, errors, >paper size, etc) and commands (select paper tray, select manual feeder, >and so on). And some ready signals so both sides know that the other side >is turned on. The actual pinout for the connection is: 1 LP CLK 2 LP Data In 3 LP Data Out 1 4 LP Data Out 2 5 LP PWR Enable 6 GND 7 GND 8 GND 9 NC >This sounds suspiciously like the Canon 'video' interface. Just out of >curiousity, what connector is used (the Canon standard one is a DC37-S on >the printer). The connection on the CPU end is a DE-9M. My NeXT laser printer is sitting in my office awaiting replacement of it's feed roller and ejection gear, so I can't doublecheck the connector on the printer end. I believe it's the same as the CPU though, as I don't recall the cable being different on each end. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 19:17:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Dec 30, 1 07:04:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/256c0e8c/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Sun Dec 30 18:11:49 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <10112302249.ZM11575@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:49:13 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: #On Dec 30, 16:03, Louis Schulman wrote: # #> With all due respect, I disagree. The term "Centronics", whatever its #original meaning, refers to a type of #> connector. Looking at the Jameco catalog, for example, the catalog #pictures 14, 24, 36 and 50 contact #> male and female connectors, all referred to as "Centronics". I have #never heard the term "blue ribbon" used #> to describe these connectors. #> #No, Tony is correct. Just because a name is commonly (mis)used in a #particular way, doesn't mean it's correct, especially in catalogues. This #discussion has come up before in relation to "DB9" connectors etc. A #Centronics connector is a specific size, 36pins. The other sizes (14, 20, #24, 50, etc) are NOT Centronics connectors. Well, this type of argument belongs in alt.sys.language_police, not here. English, as is the case with most languages, evolves through usage. When does "misusage" become acceptable? When most people accept the usage. If you want to start disqualifying words because their usage began with misusage, you have your work cut out for you. Catalogs refer to these connectors as "Centronics", because most people (including you and Tony) know what they intend when they say this. If the catalogs said "blue ribbon" or "amphenol" most people would not know what this means. In fact, "amphenol" is usually used to refer to a type of coaxial antenna connector. Possibly you and Tony are French, who actually have a govenment agency to police word usage. Basically, you have no word to replace "Centronics", but propose that the name of this type of connector is dependent on the number of pins, which in turn is dependent on its usual use. I will give you guys the edge in computer technology, but on language matters, your expertise is questionable. (Note: For some reason or another, this note reads in a more hostile tone than intended. It's all in fun :-).) Louis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 19:15:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Louis Schulman" at Dec 30, 1 07:11:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/c381e4d5/attachment.ksh From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Dec 30 18:35:42 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find References: Message-ID: <00bc01c19193$15212bc0$ab469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 05:06 PM Subject: Re: NEXT Color Printer find > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > > I would imagine it was to talk to the printer. IIRC early Macs used > > SCSI printers, too. Pretty neat. I wonder how hard a SCSI <-> > > parallel interface would be to build. > > I seem to remember seeing a few companies offer these kinds of bridges, > but I doubt they would work for anything other then a printer. I was thinking that in these times of swiss-army-chips, there would be some kind of controller with SCSI-1 and parallel onboard. Be a whole lot faster to print across a SCSI -> parallel bridge than a serial cable, I'd imagine. > > I have a SCSI <-> ethernet bridge around here somewhere. I think it was > made for older Macs that lacked nubus or another means of expansion. It > reports itself as a disk device, but I haven't done much with it yet. I've heard of those too, and was thinking about getting one for some of the older macs I had, before I decided to get rid of 'em. IIRC they weren't the most elegant of things, and drivers were a problem. > > -Toth Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 19:04:20 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Re: NEXT Color Printer find (Pete Turnbull) References: <10112302249.ZM11575@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15407.47508.165600.827082@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 30, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > My understanding is that Centronics was the first to use this type of > connector on its parallel printers, so > > when it became the standard type connector the name stuck. > > No, Tony is correct. Just because a name is commonly (mis)used in a > particular way, doesn't mean it's correct, especially in catalogues. This > discussion has come up before in relation to "DB9" connectors etc. A > Centronics connector is a specific size, 36pins. The other sizes (14, 20, > 24, 50, etc) are NOT Centronics connectors. The 24-way is sometimes > referred to as an IEEE-488 connector. Does that make all the other sizes > IEEE-488 connectors too? > > The common misuse is fairly recent, too. 50-pin conectors in that shape > have been around for a long time, as SCSI connectors, as telco connectors, > and for datacomms. Only in the last 5-8 years have I seen them referred to > as Centronics. It has always been my understanding that the proper way to refer to one of these is by the name "amphenol connector". -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From donm at cts.com Sun Dec 30 19:05:42 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Louis Schulman wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:22:25 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: > > #> # Both of the > #> #centronics ports on the printer are SCSI. I've never seen one that has > #> #a parellel port. > #> > #> Well, you are mistaken about something. This printer has _three_ Centronics ports, two are SCSI, and > the > #> other is smaller, the size of a parallel port. My theory is that this is the difference between a Model 2004, > #> which is documented in web literature, and Model 2005, of which there may have been few examples > (since > #> this one is evidently number 17). > # > #I've never seen this printer, but I think you're a little confused. > # > #The Centronics interface is a de facto standard for a parallel interface > #to a printer, as originally used by the Centronics company. It's not SCSI > #or anything related to it. To say you have a Centronics port that is SCSI > #is meaningless IMHO. > # > #What I think you mean is that you have 3 'blue ribbon' connectors on the > #unit. 2 are 50 pin (which was often used for SCSI-1 interfaces), the > #other is 36 pin (which is a standard for the Centronics parallel > #interface). > # > #My guess is that the 36 pin connector _is_ a Centronics parallel port, > #but I'd probably not just plug it in on such a rare printer without doing > #some further tests. One test that's easy to do is to trace which pins of > #the connectors go to logic ground (this is generally easy enough to find > #inside) and see if they match up with any known interface pinout. > # > #-tony > # > With all due respect, I disagree. The term "Centronics", whatever its original meaning, refers to a type of > connector. Looking at the Jameco catalog, for example, the catalog pictures 14, 24, 36 and 50 contact > male and female connectors, all referred to as "Centronics". I have never heard the term "blue ribbon" used > to describe these connectors. Tony is correct. Regrettably, Jameco has fallen into the bastardization/mongrelization of the language. Looking at a page of a 1962 Allied Radio catalog, I see listings and illustrations of the Amphenol "Blue Ribbon" connectors in sizes running from 8-32 contacts. They obviously derived their name from the blue Diallyl phthalate dielectric that carried the rinnon like contacts. - don > My understanding is that Centronics was the first to use this type of connector on its parallel printers, so > when it became the standard type connector the name stuck. > > Parallel port nomenclature now has a number of different terms, based on function and standard, not type of > connector. SCSI connectors are sometimes Centronics type, but not always. > > In any event, the "36-pin Centronics Connector" is a parallel connection, and the PC was able to talk to this > printer. > > BTW, this type of connector, regardless of the number of pins, when made for ribbon cables, is referred to > by Jameco as "IDC Centronics Connector". > > Louis > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 30 19:57:33 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > Tony is correct. > Regrettably, Jameco has fallen into the bastardization/mongrelization of > the language. Looking at a page of a 1962 Allied Radio catalog, I see > listings and illustrations of the Amphenol "Blue Ribbon" connectors in > sizes running from 8-32 contacts. They obviously derived their name > from the blue Diallyl phthalate dielectric that carried the rinnon like > contacts. Don provides a hint to the correct approach. Invoke the 10 year rule. In place of current accepted sloppy terminology, how many remember what they were called THEN? From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Dec 30 21:59:20 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find Message-ID: >I've heard of those too, and was thinking about getting one for some of the >older macs I had, before I decided to get rid of 'em. IIRC they weren't the >most elegant of things, and drivers were a problem. I've used the Asante ones without a hitch for years. No driver problems at all. You just need the Asante driver (last I knew, it was still available on their web site, just burried). The driver hasn't given me any problems up thru OS 7.6.1. I don't know about OS 8+, but any Macs that can use OS 8 have an alternate means in which ethernet can be added. I have used the "Mini" which is the one that needs SCSI Bus power (and so can't work with a Mac Plus), and I have used the "Micro" which is the one that has the HDI-30 connector and is designed for powerbooks. The only problem I have ever had with these is when I dropped one off a desk, it stopped working. Other than that, there was a minor config problem in using one with IPNetRouter, but that was a known issue with IPNR, and IIRC, was actually a problem with IPNR and not with the Asante Driver (they work fine with IPNR, it just needs to be on the local network side, and not the internet side of a dual ethernet firewall/nat setup). I am hoping to lay my hands on a "desktop" version shortly, so I can use one with my Mac Plus (the "desktop" version has an external powersupply and doesn't need the scsi bus power to run the device). -chris From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 10:47:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find References: <10112302249.ZM11575@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <007301c1921a$d4f1b5a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> EEEEK!!! It's not a "DB-9"!!! Your point is well taken, Pete, and, in the interest of keeping a lot of bandwidth from going down the toilet on yet another discussion of connector nomenclature, it's well to keep in mind that the vendors of surplus hardware seldom know much about what they sell. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 10:49 PM Subject: Re: NEXT Color Printer find > On Dec 30, 16:03, Louis Schulman wrote: > > > With all due respect, I disagree. The term "Centronics", whatever its > original meaning, refers to a type of > > connector. Looking at the Jameco catalog, for example, the catalog > pictures 14, 24, 36 and 50 contact > > male and female connectors, all referred to as "Centronics". I have > never heard the term "blue ribbon" used > > to describe these connectors. > > > > My understanding is that Centronics was the first to use this type of > connector on its parallel printers, so > > when it became the standard type connector the name stuck. > > No, Tony is correct. Just because a name is commonly (mis)used in a > particular way, doesn't mean it's correct, especially in catalogues. This > discussion has come up before in relation to "DB9" connectors etc. A > Centronics connector is a specific size, 36pins. The other sizes (14, 20, > 24, 50, etc) are NOT Centronics connectors. The 24-way is sometimes > referred to as an IEEE-488 connector. Does that make all the other sizes > IEEE-488 connectors too? > > The common misuse is fairly recent, too. 50-pin conectors in that shape > have been around for a long time, as SCSI connectors, as telco connectors, > and for datacomms. Only in the last 5-8 years have I seen them referred to > as Centronics. > > > BTW, this type of connector, regardless of the number of pins, when made > for ribbon cables, is referred to > > by Jameco as "IDC Centronics Connector". > > So they're misusing the term, that's all. If they'd said > "Centronics-style" that would be different. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 30 18:41:53 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: NEXT Color Printer find" (Dec 31, 16:47) References: <10112302249.ZM11575@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <007301c1921a$d4f1b5a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10112310041.ZM11693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 31, 16:47, Richard Erlacher wrote: > EEEEK!!! It's not a "DB-9"!!! Exactly my point :-) And that's pretty much my reaction when I hear people call things Centronics, that clearly aren't. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 19:06:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <007301c1921a$d4f1b5a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Dec 31, 1 04:47:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 619 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/34831f73/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 30 17:48:36 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As Tony pointed out, misuse by Jameco doesn't make it so. On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > I've seen those connectors misnamed (note : misnamed) in a lot of > catalogues over here.... Would they call common network connectors "8 pin RJ-11"? Or would they call them "8 pin telephone connectors"? How about NMJ? > I've seen plenty of other connectors mis-named as well. Plenty of > catalogues list the DB9 connector. I've never seen a real DB9 connector, > and actually I doubt they exist. I have. It was a cable with what looked from the outside to be DB25 male connectors on each end. Each connector had pins 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,20. What made it a DB9, rather than a DB25 with missing pins is that it was a molded connector that was made that way, with no holes for the other pins. Do TELEPHONE people who have been using the larger connectors since before Centronics Corp existed, call them "Centronics connectors"? From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Dec 30 19:14:26 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find Message-ID: >Would they call common network connectors "8 pin RJ-11"? >Or would they call them "8 pin telephone connectors"? Neither, 8 pin RJ's are an RJ-45 (11 is a 4 pin, comes in either standard or handset sizes... can also have just 2 pins for "cheap" cords... 12 is a 6 pin, same physical size as a standard RJ-11) Ok, now you can hit me for being a wise ass ("not in the face, not in the face" -Arthur "The Tick") -chris From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 30 21:55:47 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find (Chris) References: Message-ID: <15407.57795.95484.308429@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 30, Chris wrote: > >Would they call common network connectors "8 pin RJ-11"? > >Or would they call them "8 pin telephone connectors"? > > Neither, 8 pin RJ's are an RJ-45 (11 is a 4 pin, comes in either standard > or handset sizes... can also have just 2 pins for "cheap" cords... 12 is > a 6 pin, same physical size as a standard RJ-11) It's important to note that the RJ designations specify not only the connector type, but the pinout. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 30 19:22:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 30, 1 03:48:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/f1afae6c/attachment.ksh From CLeyson at aol.com Sun Dec 30 20:52:09 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find Message-ID: <18e.141122d.29612cd9@aol.com> Fred Cisin wrote > In place of current accepted sloppy terminology, > how many remember what they were called THEN? Most of the engineers I work with have never heard of Amphenol or Cannon, let alone "blue range" or "red range" (popular Cannon connectors) It's a classic chicken and egg thing. Ampenol connectors were adopted as a "standard" connector for Centronics printer, IEEE-488 and SCSI interface, but are often mis-named. As I don't have an Amphenol catalogue to hand, I'm afraid I can't tell you what Amphenol's designation is for this connector. On the subject of D-sub connectors I've sometimes come across some with metric threaded jackscrews instead of the usual UNF thread, or is it UNC ? Chris Leyson From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 18:42:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Fwd: information Message-ID: Maybe one of you can help this guy out....if so, please reply directly to him. Jeff >Status: U >From: g25wytak@aol.com >Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:38:31 EST >Subject: information >To: jhellige@earthlink.net > > My name is George, and I have a Sharp >PC-1250A Pocket computer and I am looking for the owner's manual and >the BASIC Programming manual. I am hopeing that you may be able to >help me. > Thank you for your time > > e-mail-----------g25wytak@aol.com -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011230/26209154/attachment.html From pechter at bg-tc-ppp445.monmouth.com Sun Dec 30 20:02:56 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp445.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4.4 and VaxStation 3100 In-Reply-To: from Johnny Billquist at "Dec 30, 2001 09:25:26 pm" Message-ID: <200112310202.fBV22u005992@bg-tc-ppp445.monmouth.com> > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > > We've run it on a 6000-440 for a couple of years here. Worked just > > > fine. This with Ultrix 4.4. We never upgraded to 4.5. But since the > > > hardware broke down six months ago, we rolled out 8650 back in. :-) > > > We'll probably start switching to NetBSD on it soon though. Did Ultrix 4.4 Run on Vaxstation 3100's... I've got one here I'd love to run it on. NetBSD is doable, but I'd love the video support (assuming X11 worked on the Vaxstation 3100 under Ultrix -- I assume it would.) Anyone know if it's in the Ancient Unix collection or if 4.xBSD ran on it with X11 support at some time? I'd love to have one disk with Ultrix and another with VMS on it. Bill From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Dec 30 22:27:02 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4.4 and VaxStation 3100 In-Reply-To: <200112310202.fBV22u005992@bg-tc-ppp445.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > > > > We've run it on a 6000-440 for a couple of years here. Worked just > > > > fine. This with Ultrix 4.4. We never upgraded to 4.5. But since the > > > > hardware broke down six months ago, we rolled out 8650 back in. :-) > > > > We'll probably start switching to NetBSD on it soon though. > > Did Ultrix 4.4 Run on Vaxstation 3100's... Dont know about 4.4 but 4.2 and 4.3 certainly do > > I've got one here I'd love to run it on. > NetBSD is doable, but I'd love the video support (assuming X11 worked on > the Vaxstation 3100 under Ultrix -- I assume it would.) Sure does, but only up to the 3100/30/40/38/48. The 3100/76 (and beyond) were never supported under Ultrix AFAIK... > > Anyone know if it's in the Ancient Unix collection or if 4.xBSD > ran on it with X11 support at some time? I think the BSD 4.3 Vaxstation support only extends to the VSII > > I'd love to have one disk with Ultrix and another with VMS on it. > > Bill > > Peter Wallace From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Dec 30 22:32:51 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Seagate MFM drives available Message-ID: I got a bunch of functioning seagate MFM drives available. ST-225,238 and 251 models as well as some big FH models. All survived a LLF too. Controller cables also if you need them. Email if interested. From Golemancd at aol.com Sun Dec 30 23:20:32 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment Message-ID: <29.204998b9.29614fa0@aol.com> In a message dated 12/30/01 11:41:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: << www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html >> y do u need a bigger network From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 10:25:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: KWANZA ??? References: Message-ID: <005801c19219$b2fac0a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Maybe "natural" is the wrong word. It's easier to think of holidays that existed before I did as being "real" though than ones conjured up in recent times. However, some things, e.g. MLK day, Labor Day, "Presidents' Day," are all paid government holidays that didn't exist in '52, when I came to this country. Of course, you can ask anyone, and they'll tell you Christmas is over, but, in traditional reality, given there is such a thing, Christmas is a 12-day period starting with Dec 25 and ending on Jan 6 (Epiphany). American commercialism is so anxious to get the figures onto their quarterly reports, however, that they end the holiday on Dec 25, so they can publish their claims of doom or success. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 5:40 PM Subject: Re: KWANZA ??? > > On 31-Dec-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > > If that man-made "holiday" > > Are there any natural holidays? Solstice and equinoxes might be natural > events, but Christmas is not what I'd call "natural". > > ObClassicmp : Santa gave me an abacus! While this particular one was > probably manufactured recently, anything this ancient must be classic :) > > -Philip > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 10:34:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:55 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? References: <200112301650.fBUGo2w04062@bg-tc-ppp1458.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <005901c19219$b31c5260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What I find noteable is that I've never needed service from Quantum, while I have plenty of experience with Seagate, not all bad, however. My experience with Western Digital, unfortunately, hasn't been so good, however. I gave away a dozen and a half still-sealed-in-the-antistatic-bag drives last year, because the oldest of them had been replaced 4 times under warranty, and the newest, 7 times. These were WD21200's, originally purchased as 31200's, but replaced with the two-platter variety as service required. My oldest drives are either Quantum or Shugart (8" AC-spindle types). My oldest 5-1/4" drives are Seagate, though they're only weeks older than my oldest Shugart and Tandon 5-1/4" drives. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pechter" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? > > I've always had better service from Seagate. Quantum is now absorbed into > > Maxtor and I pretty much have had a lot of problems with IDE and SCSI drives > > by Quantum. Unless a Seagate is dead or damaged, I never have problems with > > them - have 8 ST410800N 9.1 SCSI FH drives on my server and all run AOK. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:40 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? > > > > > > > > A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both > > Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially > > equivalent, or is one better than the other? > > > > -ethan > > > > > I've had mixed luck with the XP32150's... I think the 32550N's would > last longer. > > I've got a bad 32150 (wide SCSI differential version) downstairs... > > I've also got a bunch of Quantum Fireball drives that you can't kill. > > The problem seems to be based on which model Quantum -- some are good > some are dogs. > > I thought all the IBM's were great until I heard about the problems with > their 60gb and up stuff... > > > Bill > > Bill > -- > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 31 00:01:41 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment In-Reply-To: <20011230232142.25420.qmail@picarefy.picarefy.com> Message-ID: On 30 Dec 2001 jwbirdsa@picarefy.com wrote: > Supposing one has a farm of older, relatively slower machines (Sun-2's, > Sun-3's, early SPARCs, 386es, very small VAXen, 68k-based Macs, etc.) > running various Unixes (mostly NetBSD), networked together and connected > to the Net. What does one do with it? > > I've been trying to think of some interesting, moderately useful > distributed-computing project that they could sit and crank away at > and haven't come up with much of anything. All the distributed projects > that I know of are distributed because even fast machines aren't enough by > themselves -- a trailing-edge farm can't make a useful contribution. Well, if you want, email Jeff Fisher guppy@techmonkeys.org, and tell him about your farm. I work with the group of coders @techmonkeys.org, and am in the process of setting up some Sun3/Sun4, SGI, and VAX hardware for a another small compile/development farm for open source software. I'm somewhat limited space wise, as I have to pack everything into a 12x16 building, but it's possible. You might also want to get in touch with the people with the Samba group, http://www.samba.org/ specifically Andrew Bartlett abartlet@samba.org and donate cpu time to their build farm http://build.samba.org/ too. I'm planning to do this with my machines once my new building is finished. -Toth From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 31 00:30:47 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4.4 and VaxStation 3100 In-Reply-To: <200112310202.fBV22u005992@bg-tc-ppp445.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > Did Ultrix 4.4 Run on Vaxstation 3100's... > > I'd love to have one disk with Ultrix and another with VMS on it. So say we all.... From a more-than-casual search of usenet archives and the web, I'd have to call Ultrix the Holy Grail of Vaxstations. If there is such a creature, and anyone posesses it, they neither admit it nor share it. Doc From fernande at internet1.net Mon Dec 31 01:13:16 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed References: <3C2D6F74.5EC762F@internet1.net> <15406.2641.674926.466480@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C30100C.94F63115@internet1.net> Dave is this an external or an internal drive? What would you want for it? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: > > On December 29, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > The other day I found a SCO Open Desktop 2.0.0 media kit, on Qic24 > > tape. I don't have the correct drive...... I don't have any tape drive > > experience, actually. > > > > Does anybody have an unneeded Qic24 SCSI tape drive? I checked Ebay and > > I didn't see anything that I thought was what I needed. > > This is going back into a very fuzzy memory...but does anyone know if > an Archive 2150S drive (QIC-150) will read QIC-24 tapes? Those drives > are pretty common, and they're standard SCSI so they don't require > less common interface hardware. And, I think I have one. :-) > > -Dave From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Dec 31 01:58:30 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find References: <10112302249.ZM11575@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3C301AA6.C7F92900@verizon.net> > Only in the last 5-8 years have I seen them referred to as Centronics. I'm sure I saw it as far back as the mid to late 80's. > Just because a name is commonly (mis)used in a particular way, > doesn't mean it's correct, Ahh, but language is a constantly evolving process. The primary purpose of which is to convey understanding. So being technically correct, but failing to convey the meaning intended, is not good. Especially when ordering parts over the telephone? At least now with digital cameras ( or polaroids and scanners ) and the internet, we can transmit pictures to help convey meaning, if we have the time to do all that? Also, a meaning valid 20 years ago, may have become something different 10 years later. What is and what isn't actually correct might only be able to be determined by consulting a dictionary? Also meaning of words has regional variance within the same country, and even greater variance in some cases across international borders. And I wouldn't even be surprised if one might not find some differences ( although very few I'm sure ) if one were to compare many dictionaries. If I'm not mistaken, the Oxford English Dictionary would generally be taken as the "highest authority". From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Dec 31 02:15:15 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: On optical SUN mice: Last F/U References: <000001c1917d$99f3dd40$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <3C301E93.B9A1A3D6@verizon.net> Fred, How about this? Print your transparency. Get one of the mousepads with the lift up clear cover. They make them so you can put your own picture of whatever you like under the cover. Then instead of a picture you put some aluminum foil and your printed transparency under the cover? That way your transparency and foil might last forever and not ever need to be redone? And if anything happened to the mousepad part, just toss it and grab another? Fred deBros wrote: > > Ok, after a few days of trial and error with all sorts of shiny and > glittery Christmas wrappings: > > The best way to make a pad for the SUN optical mice is to print the > mousepad.ps file on a transparency, and mount it on one of those semi > rigid aluminum plates such as used for cheapie (Christmas!) food trays. > Mount it UPSIDE DOWN of course, so as not to scratch the print side too > soon. Maybe laminate the whole shebang? Add a print of the pad in the > back so you can quickly copy it again if the first one "scratches out". > Make sure the felts under the mouse are there. Type 4 and type 5 mice, > both work with that contraption. > > Now if only there was a pgm to accelerate the movements like in windows > mice... > > Fred From vance at ikickass.org Mon Dec 31 03:10:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Boatman on the River of Suck) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <15407.57795.95484.308429@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I could have sworn that the regular single-pair telephone connector is RJ11, and the two-pair/two-line one is RJ14. On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:55:47 -0500 > From: Dave McGuire > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find > > On December 30, Chris wrote: > > >Would they call common network connectors "8 pin RJ-11"? > > >Or would they call them "8 pin telephone connectors"? > > > > Neither, 8 pin RJ's are an RJ-45 (11 is a 4 pin, comes in either standard > > or handset sizes... can also have just 2 pins for "cheap" cords... 12 is > > a 6 pin, same physical size as a standard RJ-11) > > It's important to note that the RJ designations specify not only the > connector type, but the pinout. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Mon Dec 31 03:06:04 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Wanted: One Specific Piece of Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30-Dec-2001 Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > >> Which aren't what you want. But let me heartily recomend Clipper. >> It compiles 99% of dBase programs and more. The 2 features I really >> liked of Clipper where that it worked like a real compiler (ie, >> compiled to .obj files, linked to .exe. Back in the day I used a 3rd >> party incremental linker which saved much time during compiles) but > > Yes, I used an incremental linker as well ("Blinker" is what it was > called if I'm not mistaken). It made a tremendous difference on a 286 :) Blinker it was. > Clipper did/does rock, but once I got into FoxPro I preferred it. What did foxpro have that clipper didn't? >> above all, XCOMMANDS! These allowed you to add new syntax to the >> language, which would be mapped onto function calls. Think of it as a >> sophisticated pre-processor. I've heard rumours of someone >> implementing Fortran as Clipper xcommands. > > Never used or even heard of those but that sounds cool. Eeep! Then you either switched to FoxPro too soon, or didn't drink fully of Clipper. Here are 2 examples or xcommands: #xcommand DEFAULT TO [, TO ] ; => ; IF == NIL ; := ; END ; [; IF == NIL ; := ; END ] This maps the command : default foo to "hello" To IF foo == NIL ; foo := "hello" ; END the an mean that default foo to "hello", bar to "world", biffle to 10 turns into IF foo == NIL ; foo := "hello" ; END IF bar == NIL ; bar := "world" ; END IF biffle == NIL ; biffle := 10 ; END Here's a more complex example : #command @ , GET PASSWORD [PICTURE ] ; [SEND ] [COLOUR ] [valid ] ; ; => SetPos( , ) ; ; AAdd( GetList, ; GetNew( , , ; {|cNew| IF(pcount()==0, , :=cNew)}, ; <"cWord">,,) ; ):reader:={|o| Pass_read(o) } ; [; ATail(GetList):] ; [; ATail(GetList):postblock:=<{fvalid}>] ; ; Pass_disp(ATail(GetList)) This extends the @ ...GET so to add a password entry (ie, echo * instead of what's typed). AAdd and ATail were array manip functions, GetList is a global array of what's in the current @ ... GET page. GetNew is a constructor in the crude OO that clipper 5.0 had. Pass_read and Pass_disp where functions I supplied. Perl (source-filters) and Forth (redefine basic words) allow similar tomfoolery. I've always found language that allows one to change and augment the basic syntax to be Extra Good. -Philip From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 02:27:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: Message-ID: <001801c191d4$fb347d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are plenty of folks who think collectors of old computer hardware are odd. One oddity I'd like to see adopted is a dedication to correctness in detail. Where the language used in our society is rapidly heading for the point at which everyone will only be taught a single syllable, leaving inflections to communicate whatever little meaning there is, I'd suggest we, at least, take it upon ourselves to learn and use the correct terminology, painful as it may be. more below, BTW. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 1:57 AM Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > Tony is correct. > > Regrettably, Jameco has fallen into the bastardization/mongrelization of > > the language. Looking at a page of a 1962 Allied Radio catalog, I see > > listings and illustrations of the Amphenol "Blue Ribbon" connectors in > > sizes running from 8-32 contacts. They obviously derived their name > > from the blue Diallyl phthalate dielectric that carried the ribbon-like > > contacts. > > Don provides a hint to the correct approach. > Invoke the 10 year rule. > > In place of current accepted sloppy terminology, > how many remember what they were called THEN? > A lot of this nomenclature problem came about when folks started referring to the DB25 (and it is a 'B' shell) as an "RS232" connector. IIRC, both the 'D' subminitature connectors, e.g. DE9, DA15, DB25, DC37, DD50 ... and the "Blue-Ribbon" series were Amphenol products, the patent on which expired in the late '70's. Consequently the trade names became muddled in various competitors' nomenclature. If somebody has kept old Cramer, Newark, Allied, and other catalogs of the late '60's and early '70's, (which I haven't) the nomenclature should be much clearer there. From allain at panix.com Mon Dec 31 10:40:09 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: <001801c191d4$fb347d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <009101c19219$d01bb900$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> There's always a place for the person who knows the correct and exact answer to something. (It just may not be where you are at that moment ) I for one don't get too bent out of shape when people can't speak our brand of "Doctor's Latin". "Fifty pin Centronics style" communicates the point to more people than the "Latin". Be ready to adapt to the audience. There was a story on NPR about the people who re-create revolutionary and civil war battles as a hobby. Some of them are sticklers to the point where they get pissed when someone shows up with modern eyeglasses or cotton instead of wool clothing, etc. They called them "Farby's" for the phrase "Far be it for me to judge". John A. From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 31 11:47:11 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <009101c19219$d01bb900$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Dec 31, 2001 11:40:09 AM Message-ID: <200112311747.fBVHlBY25282@narnia.int.dittman.net> > There's always a place for the person who knows the correct > and exact answer to something. (It just may not be where you > are at that moment ) I for one don't get too bent out of shape > when people can't speak our brand of "Doctor's Latin". "Fifty pin > Centronics style" communicates the point to more people than > the "Latin". Be ready to adapt to the audience. There was a recent thread on the linux-kernel mailing list about changing all references to KB, MB, etc. to the new standard KiB, MiB, etc. Some people were for the change, since the new names are unambiguous, while others think it is kind of ridiculous for a third-party to change the definitions that have been accepted for years. I'm in the camp that 1KB of RAM is 1024B, and 1MB of hard drive is 1024*1024B. That's what they've meant for years, and the hard drive manufacturers playing with specs and getting the public thinking 1MB=1000*1024B is not a good reason to change. I'm not pedantic, though. While I use "Ethernet", I don't get bent out of shape when people use "ethernet". -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From allain at panix.com Mon Dec 31 12:55:07 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: <200112311747.fBVHlBY25282@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <013501c1922c$aaf3b840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > it is kind of ridiculous for a third-party to change the definitions > that have been accepted for {>>30} years. Do you know who is leading the adoption of the "Bad" IE 1000=K standard? At least it aint MS This time. John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 31 13:55:49 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: <200112311747.fBVHlBY25282@narnia.int.dittman.net> <013501c1922c$aaf3b840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3C30C2C5.1EF864F5@jetnet.ab.ca> John Allain wrote: > > > it is kind of ridiculous for a third-party to change the definitions > > that have been accepted for {>>30} years. > > Do you know who is leading the adoption of the "Bad" IE 1000=K > standard? At least it aint MS This time. > > John A. 'The Suits' is my guess ... makes your revised spec-ed HD look bigger than the other 'Guys'. Next year 1K is 900 bytes ... -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dittman at dittman.net Mon Dec 31 14:00:07 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <013501c1922c$aaf3b840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Dec 31, 2001 01:55:07 PM Message-ID: <200112312000.fBVK07E25600@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > it is kind of ridiculous for a third-party to change the definitions > > that have been accepted for {>>30} years. > > Do you know who is leading the adoption of the "Bad" IE 1000=K > standard? At least it aint MS This time. Isn't it NIST? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 31 04:06:18 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I could have sworn that the regular single-pair telephone connector is > RJ11, and the two-pair/two-line one is RJ14. Sounds right to me... Quiz: Anyone know what an RJ31X jack is for? Google is cheating ;) -Toth From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Dec 31 06:32:01 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: Message-ID: <002a01c191f7$267f2160$a7469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 05:06 AM Subject: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > I could have sworn that the regular single-pair telephone connector is > > RJ11, and the two-pair/two-line one is RJ14. > > Sounds right to me... > > Quiz: Anyone know what an RJ31X jack is for? Google is cheating ;) Allows one to sieze a phone line for e.g. fire alarm system. Has an in pair and an out pair with a shorting jumper that's moved when a (RJ45?) connector is inserted. I'm gonna be putting in couple, one to keep the data calls uninterruptable, and one for a future fire alarm. Cheaper than a second phone line! A breakout cable should just take a few seconds to make, to mate the one-connector 31X to a modem w/ phone in & out. > > -Toth Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 31 11:03:47 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find (Boatman on the River of Suck) References: <15407.57795.95484.308429@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15408.39539.533213.179863@phaduka.neurotica.com> That is correct. -Dave On December 31, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > I could have sworn that the regular single-pair telephone connector is > RJ11, and the two-pair/two-line one is RJ14. > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:55:47 -0500 > > From: Dave McGuire > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find > > > > On December 30, Chris wrote: > > > >Would they call common network connectors "8 pin RJ-11"? > > > >Or would they call them "8 pin telephone connectors"? > > > > > > Neither, 8 pin RJ's are an RJ-45 (11 is a 4 pin, comes in either standard > > > or handset sizes... can also have just 2 pins for "cheap" cords... 12 is > > > a 6 pin, same physical size as a standard RJ-11) > > > > It's important to note that the RJ designations specify not only the > > connector type, but the pinout. > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire > > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf > > > > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 11:10:30 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <18e.141122d.29612cd9@aol.com> Message-ID: > Most of the engineers I work with have never heard of Amphenol or Cannon, > let alone "blue range" or "red range" (popular Cannon connectors) The only place that I have EVER met any people who claimed to be "engineers" who might "have never heard of Amphenol" would be some university folk who have never set foot into the real world. "I'm an automotive engineer; I've never heard of 'Lucas Electric'"? > On the subject of D-sub connectors I've sometimes come across some with > metric threaded jackscrews instead of the usual UNF thread, or is it UNC ? There are many deviations from standards. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 31 12:03:26 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) References: <18e.141122d.29612cd9@aol.com> Message-ID: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 31, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > The only place that I have EVER met any people who claimed to be > "engineers" who might "have never heard of Amphenol" would be some > university folk who have never set foot into the real world. Ahh, those "engineers" who don't know which end of a soldering iron gets hot. A fond memory from around 1991, while working for a small defense contractor in NJ, talking with a 2nd-year "summer slave" on loan from MIT (of all places!). I'd assigned him to write some data reduction code in FORTRAN for a remote sensing project, and later wound up having to do it myself: Me: "This program needs a lot of work." Weenie: "Hah! Where did *YOU* go to school? See here:" [weenie scribbles some incomprehensible equation on the whiteboard] Me: "I didn't. But I damn well know a REAL*4 on this VAX won't deal with the IEEE-format floating point numbers from the spectrometer without format conversion, for starters. Weenie: "WHAT?! [horrified look] You actually want to RUN this program?" Me: "Of course. Why the hell do you think I asked you to write it?" Weenie: "Isn't this just an exercise?" Me: "We are a defense contractor. We build machines to kill people. Look at the size of my gut...we NEVER exercise around here." Weenie: "Does this mean I have to type this program in, like on a computer?" Me: "No. You're fired." -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 13:05:01 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh, those "engineers" who don't know which end of a soldering iron > gets hot. > A fond memory from around 1991, while working for a small defense > contractor in NJ, talking with a 2nd-year "summer slave" on loan from > MIT (of all places!). I'd assigned him to write some data reduction > code in FORTRAN for a remote sensing project, and later wound up > having to do it myself: . . . > Me: "No. You're fired." I catch a lot of flack at the college for teaching real-world programming, instead of UCBerkeley academic style. (such as teaching students to NOT use scanf() for keyboard input (According to Ritchie, it was NEVER intended for keyboard)). There is a classic old story about Edison. He had a college intern one summer. He handed the intern an empty lightbulb and asked him to find out what the volume was. The intern proceeded to calculate an equation for the shape, and integrate that around the rotational axis. After a few hours, Edison took the bulb away from him, filled it with water from the sink, and poured that into a graduated beaker. OB_CC: That makes the old Apple ad exceptionally out of line. Apple's ad said that if Edison were to have had an Apple, he could have simulated everything, instead of actually having to try things out in his workshop. Would he? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 31 12:30:31 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > The only place that I have EVER met any people who claimed to be > "engineers" who might "have never heard of Amphenol" would be some > university folk who have never set foot into the real world. > "I'm an automotive engineer; I've never heard of 'Lucas Electric'"? Being a long-time British/European rider, I gotta ask... Was Amphenol *that* bad? :^) Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 11:19:02 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <15407.57795.95484.308429@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > It's important to note that the RJ designations specify not only the > connector type, but the pinout. Exactly. That is why talking about a DB9 is like talking about a 6 connector RJ11. From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 31 11:40:46 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Xyplex terminal server Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E053@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> It just occurred to me that I have had a Xyplex terminal server setting in the closet for a while. :) I have no software for it. It's not "classic," being relatively new, but I intent to use it to hook my Unix PC, Kaypro 2, and perhaps some other things up to my home network, so it's not completely off-topic. Does anyone know where I can find something to run it? I will try to get the model number and post it. Right now all I remember is that it's an 8-port (I think) model in a 1U package. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Dec 31 12:22:45 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Anyone have a Rodime RO3065 Drive? Message-ID: <3C30ACF5.392B9FF8@olf.com> Hi, I am looking for a Rodime RO3065 3-1/2" 53Mbyte MFM Harddrive. Anyone have a spare they are willing to part with? Thanks, Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Mon Dec 31 13:22:41 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: WD1003A-SCS board Message-ID: <01123114224100.13406@ws1> Does anybody have a manual with jumper settings for this? It's a Western Digital SCSI-to-MFM board. Can't seem to get it to work. - but the LED stays on dimly(?) From macrecycle at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 15:05:04 2001 From: macrecycle at earthlink.net (MacRecycleProject) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: WTB SGI Indy References: <200112311857.fBVIvvU64218@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <041101c1923e$d1bdf780$8c00000a@mfpc> Anybody got any good suggestions on where to go to get a nice SGI Indy, just for playing around -- preferably cheap? R. P. Bell ARS KX7Q My friends call me "RB" ================= Mac Recycle Project Recycled Macintosh Computers and Services for Educational or Non-Profit Enterprises Email macrecycle@earthlink.net From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 31 11:13:00 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) Message-ID: <3C309C9C.4020703@cnonline.net> --probably off topic... I am not sure of the age of the board but Adaptec seems to think it's not supportable any more... :^( Anybody have DOS ASPI drivers for the ADAPTEC AHA-1542CF?? Tis an ISA scsi card with floppy attach and I have it in a 486 machine ---------------------------------- The machine seems to be a 486dx in a "lunchbox" style case with color lcd. looks like a normal motherboard is inside.. goes by the name of PCIII, with no other markings as to MFG. Any one know anything about this? From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Dec 31 07:05:58 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) In-Reply-To: <3C309C9C.4020703@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <20011231180044.JYOJ8040.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:13:00 -0800 > From: Ron Hudson > To: Classic Computers Mailing list > Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > --probably off topic... > > I am not sure of the age of the board but > Adaptec seems to think it's not supportable > any more... :^( > > Anybody have DOS ASPI drivers for the > ADAPTEC AHA-1542CF?? > > Tis an ISA scsi card with floppy attach > and I have it in a 486 machine I had no problems finding drivers for my older 1522 also. Winblows 9x has it already. Linux has own drivers for these, BSD, Freebsd, Netbsd, all of them has many items supported also. > goes by the name of PCIII, with no other markings > as to MFG. This is generic lunchbox by one same "unknown" maker that I had PCII mono lunchbox, the card for it was very poorly designed that it breaks up when LCD controller rom is shadowed on pentium board I had put in. Appearently that box was designed for old 286 or 386 era. Pull your LCD card and look for biggest chipset markings and start from there for video drivers. Leave those jumpers alone on that LCD controller! Cheers, Wizard From fernande at internet1.net Mon Dec 31 12:20:10 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) References: <3C309C9C.4020703@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <3C30AC5A.C3C7DFAB@internet1.net> Ron, You must have spoken with the janitor at Adaptec. http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/support/drivers_by_product.html?cat=/Product/AHA-1542CF Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ron Hudson wrote: > > --probably off topic... > > I am not sure of the age of the board but > Adaptec seems to think it's not supportable > any more... :^( > > Anybody have DOS ASPI drivers for the > ADAPTEC AHA-1542CF?? > > Tis an ISA scsi card with floppy attach > and I have it in a 486 machine > > ---------------------------------- > The machine seems to be a 486dx in a "lunchbox" > style case with color lcd. looks like a normal > motherboard is inside.. > > goes by the name of PCIII, with no other markings > as to MFG. > > Any one know anything about this? From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 31 12:35:31 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) In-Reply-To: <3C309C9C.4020703@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Ron Hudson wrote: > --probably off topic... > > I am not sure of the age of the board but > Adaptec seems to think it's not supportable > any more... :^( Ron, Adaptec still has drivers on the ftp server ftp://ftp.adaptec.com/scsi/general/ If that doesn't get it, let me know. I'm sure I have them around somewhere. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 31 12:44:39 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) References: <3C309C9C.4020703@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <3C30B217.8A104B03@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > > --probably off topic... > > I am not sure of the age of the board but > Adaptec seems to think it's not supportable > any more... :^( > > Anybody have DOS ASPI drivers for the > ADAPTEC AHA-1542CF?? > > Tis an ISA scsi card with floppy attach > and I have it in a 486 machine > > ---------------------------------- > The machine seems to be a 486dx in a "lunchbox" > style case with color lcd. looks like a normal > motherboard is inside.. > > goes by the name of PCIII, with no other markings > as to MFG. > > Any one know anything about this? Don't look at me... I still have my 1542 in this PC here and no drivers.I could use the 'dos' drivers to read a CDROM just in case 95 crashes and I need to reload windows. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 31 13:12:39 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) In-Reply-To: <3C309C9C.4020703@cnonline.net> Message-ID: HAve you checked the Adpatec site for the limited version of EZ SCSI that they have for download and usually includes DOS and Windows drivers? -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ron Hudson Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:13 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing list Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) --probably off topic... I am not sure of the age of the board but Adaptec seems to think it's not supportable any more... :^( Anybody have DOS ASPI drivers for the ADAPTEC AHA-1542CF?? Tis an ISA scsi card with floppy attach and I have it in a 486 machine ---------------------------------- The machine seems to be a 486dx in a "lunchbox" style case with color lcd. looks like a normal motherboard is inside.. goes by the name of PCIII, with no other markings as to MFG. Any one know anything about this? From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Dec 31 11:16:16 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Help, I will now buy another VAX 6000-420 in Virginia Beach, I can't possibly take that thing .... References: <3C2FF12B.5080802@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C309D60.7070708@aurora.regenstrief.org> Oh my oh my, I just won another VAX 6000-420 for 24 bucks and 99 cents on eBay. Another 6400 in my fleet. I just love these machines. They are handsome decently powerful not oversized, modest in power consumption and noise emission (compared to the 11/780). Very friendly to operate (compared to 11/750, 780 and pretty much everything before. It's so invaluable to have a self test LED at every board so you know exactly whats wrong if things don't work.) Of course these are real machines not PC-lookalikes. But that's what it's all about! :-) But I can never justify to transport that machine from Virginia Beach to Indianapolis and frankly I have no room for it. I hope that Mr. Seller will let me take a virtual peek inside and if theres anything I don't have or that I need, I will take some off. I can still use CPUs (to build my second 6000-460, KFSMA, anything peripheral except CIBCA and DEBNT (have enough of those). BTW, at some point not too far ahead, I will give that second 6000-460 away (if and when I get my 6000-660). Another thing is I will trade a whole setup with 6460, 6520, HSC90, SA600 cabinet, TU81+ and Dataproducts printer and may be add one PDP-8/A as a prize for the one who brings me a nice 11/785 with UNIBUS extension cabinet. In that regard I also trade a TU78 in the style of the 80s against a TU78 with the blue head-panel that fits the 11/780. So, now you know. I've always stuff cooking until I retire from my hardware ackquisition frenzie. after I have my 11/785 setup. If you live close to Virginia Beach, or you plan on passing by there, let me know. regards, -Gunther PS: also remember, there are a couple of 8650s waiting for a home. I would love to take one but I can't build my whole garage into a computerroom, and I can't run the machine as a furnace (I have gas heat and want to keep it that way :-). But remember, the 8650 are very elegant machines, if you can handle that caliber. Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > there are 23 minutes to go on an ebay auction > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1313054232 > > for a VAX 6420. I already have 3 such cabinets in my house > and I can impossibly take one let alone the shipping. I will > only have it checked out for parts. It's dirt cheap. I am > always looking for some interesting stuff and this one might > just have some. Most of the heavy and hard to get stuff I > will leave. You should have a running machine. Outbid me now > if you can take the whole machine. > > regards > -Gunther > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Dec 31 14:41:07 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: <20011226220529.C7508@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>; from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 10:05:29PM +0100 References: <20011226220529.C7508@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20011231124107.A1290@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 10:05:29PM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote: > BTW: I earn my mony as a programmer and what do I do for my private > enjoinment this days: I am porting (OK, trying to port) pdksh-5.2.14 to > 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73... ;-) Why spend time with pdksh when you can get the real Korn shell sources? :) http://www.kornshell.com/ -- Derek From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 31 11:10:58 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: KWANZA ??? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E04F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: gwynp@artware.qc.ca [mailto:gwynp@artware.qc.ca] > ObClassicmp : Santa gave me an abacus! While this particular one was > probably manufactured recently, anything this ancient must be > classic :) Me too. :) Mine has what appear to be ceramic beads, and a nice light red-ish (not quite cherry) wood frame. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mnadeau at editservices.com Mon Dec 31 10:10:08 2001 From: mnadeau at editservices.com (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: test, ignore Message-ID: <004401c19215$9e6d0d40$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 31 11:00:21 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E04E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com [mailto:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] > Decided to pull out my amiga 500 and a PHOENIX hard drive > that fits it. > plugged it all in and the hard drive spins up, but the amiga > still prompts > for a system floppy. can a PC download and create an amiga > system disk? i Short answer: No. ;) Long answer: The amiga floppy format is 880k. The standard peesee drive/controller setup won't do it. You may be in luck if you have a catweasel controller or a compati-card. Otherwise, you can probably write them with a macintosh. You can also possibly do it with some unix machines, or if you have a VAX with 3.5" floppy, or alpha... I was going to try with my sparc IPC, myself. On another note, I have a set of disks that will boot my amiga 1000. Kickstart and OS 1.2 (I think?). I don't know whether OS 1.2 will work on your 500, nor have I any idea whether the OS you get absolutely must be matched to the kickstart version (in ROM on the 500...) I'd be willing to give it a try anyway, though, if you can't find something that's more of a "sure bet." > want to see what this computer is capable of. The only fully working '500 I've seen was very impressive in context. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 12:16:13 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E04E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: > > for a system floppy. can a PC download and create an amiga > > system disk? i On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > Short answer: No. ;) Long answer: The amiga floppy format is 880k. > The standard peesee drive/controller setup won't do it. You may be in > luck if you have a catweasel controller Has anybody ever actually SEEN and USED any software for the catweasel that will make an Amiga disk (NOT duplicate one that is present)? > or a compati-card. Short answer: No. Long answer: The compati-card is merely a very versatile form of the PC disk controller from MicroSolutions (who put out and have discontinued Uniform). It will NOT do Amiga, Mac 400/800K, Apple ][, Commodore 64, Hard sectored, etc. I think that "MatchPoint" might be their board that you're thinkking of. > Otherwise, you can probably write them with a macintosh. You can also > possibly do it with some unix machines, or if you have a VAX with 3.5" > floppy, or alpha... I was going to try with my sparc IPC, myself. What software is available for Mac to do Amiga disks? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Dec 31 13:30:07 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E04E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3C30BCBF.99BDC232@ccp.com> Christopher Smith wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com [mailto:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] > > > Decided to pull out my amiga 500 and a PHOENIX hard drive > > that fits it. > > plugged it all in and the hard drive spins up, but the amiga > > still prompts > > for a system floppy. can a PC download and create an amiga > > system disk? i > > Short answer: No. ;) > > Long answer: > > The amiga floppy format is 880k. The standard peesee drive/controller setup won't do it. You may be in luck if you have a catweasel controller or a compati-card. > > Otherwise, you can probably write them with a macintosh. You can also possibly do it with some unix machines, or if you have a VAX with 3.5" floppy, or alpha... I was going to try with my sparc IPC, myself. > > On another note, I have a set of disks that will boot my amiga 1000. Kickstart and OS 1.2 (I think?). I don't know whether OS 1.2 will work on your 500, nor have I any idea whether the OS you get absolutely must be matched to the kickstart version (in ROM on the 500...) I'd be willing to give it a try anyway, though, if you can't find something that's more of a "sure bet." > > > want to see what this computer is capable of. > > The only fully working '500 I've seen was very impressive in context. > > Regards, > > Chris You can use Workbench disks that are backwards from the kickstart ROM version. WB 1.2 differs from 1.3 only in autobooting code for a hard drive. WB 2.x and higher have a new graphic interface, with a nice grey background instead of the original navy blue and orange theme. Gary Hildebrand From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 31 13:52:38 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E05C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > Has anybody ever actually SEEN and USED any software for the catweasel > that will make an Amiga disk (NOT duplicate one that is present)? Not me, though, I've seen documents (probably in UAE) that say you can write disks to images and images to disks if you use it. The linux/netbsd/freebsd drivers, from all I've seen and heard, should access disks fine for making images and the like. > I think that "MatchPoint" might be their board that you're > thinkking of. I was thinking of compati-card, actually. I was un-aware that it had this same limitation. I may have to see if I can find one of these "MatchPoint" boards now, though. What are my chances? > What software is available for Mac to do Amiga disks? Again, I seem to remember from docs that UAE will use it directly. So you'd be stuck with a chicken-egg scenario where you need an image of the O/S (or boot disk) to get it working. :) Otherwise it would work fine. I have seen mappings for the linux fdparam (I think that's the program..) which will make your system use the format at a low level, and have heard that catweasel works with linux. In that case you can image/unimage the disks pretty simply. As for a program that reads/writes the filesystem (I assume that's what you're asking...), I don't know of one, but I believe that given the number of people interested in amiga emulation, somebody must have written one. If they havent, get an amiga emulator set-up, and chances are that will do it for you. (Again, I seem to remember mention of this in the UAE docs) I would, of course, be interested to hear from anyone who's really tried it. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Dec 31 04:17:10 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Seagate ST32550N vs Quantum XP32150 - which is better? In-Reply-To: <20011229224009.90956.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011231021542.009edbf0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 02:40 PM 12/29/01 -0800, you wrote: >A buddy of mine needs a couple of 2Gb 1" SCSI drives. I have both >Quantum XP32150s and ST32550Ns available. Are these drives essentially >equivalent, or is one better than the other? I would go with the Quantum, better chance it will work without a 3rd party format (ie Apple Drive Setup will accept it as a 'Apple' drive). From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Dec 31 09:26:45 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers In-Reply-To: <3C306693.18466.986B1CE@localhost> References: <200112271257.HAA10157@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20011231202202.BTNM9690.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Lawrence Walker" > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:22:27 -0600 > Subject: Re: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Thanks all for the suggestions. > I've decided to go with a spare IBM 8580 I have. They're built like a tank and > could survive the rigors of a machine shop. Also I don't want to part with a Not good idea...without enclosing and close all openings w/ screen that '80 boxen to keep junk out that shop produces. Safe places is either in cashier room or office room. These rooms that does have self-closing doors is best for 'puters. Going to have SCSI in that 80? You better do that. SCSI is strongly recommanded for ease of replacement and used narrow scsi drives are plentiful and inexpensive. ESDI and MFM is not best idea, these drives are harder to find now and too used up. Before putting that machine there, don't forget to blow out that PSU w/ compressed air. IBM PSUs too often were found loaded full of dust. Cheers, Wizard PS: I have seen stuff that wasn't intended for shop use got full of greasy junk along w/ metallic bits. Sharp shavings mixed w/ greasy dirt in home blower wheel that was pulled from dud forced air heater that was used to move stale air around in machine shop. My other friend was given this blower and I took it apart and washed everything in kitchen sink, repaired power cable splice bec some bastards simply twisted wires together without wire nuts or solder, AAAHH! Welding, grinding stuff let fly lot of particles that get in everything and does damage other stuff. Someone was grinding something w/ bench grinder and sparks/particles that was let fly pitted friend's jetta's windows 8 feet away. Friend stored his jetta there for complete repaint and some repairs to his CV joint at high school. Shop enviroment is very HARSH FYI. From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 31 13:22:27 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers In-Reply-To: <200112271257.HAA10157@wordstock.com> References: <3C2A21D2.16907.31689C38@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Dec 26, 01 07:15:30 pm Message-ID: <3C306693.18466.986B1CE@localhost> Thanks all for the suggestions. I've decided to go with a spare IBM 8580 I have. They're built like a tank and could survive the rigors of a machine shop. Also I don't want to part with a precious Commodore xx02 monitor. :^) In looking at the current crop of Shop Management programs they all seem to be simply upgraded Doze programs using things like Paradox. And also very expensive. Using the 386 would also expand his options to include an accounting program, as well as other discontinued business programs with invoice printing, etc. I have a raft of old W3.1 and Doze software so I have to get creative on what I put on it's 2 small ESDE drives, keeping in mind that he is basicly computer-illiterate and that this is a small, self-supporting operation out in the boonies. Any guidance would be welcome. Kind of an "if you were setting up a small business PC in the late 80s what would you put on it" project. I find it humorously ironic that I made a decision between machines like the C-64 ( around $400) and an 8580 ($10k w/o any peripherals). Kind of a pay- back for the snub of a Mac salesman in the early 80s who coldly responded to my questions by quickly moving on to other customers after deciding I likely didn't have the $3000 outlay for an early Mac. He looked at me as if I was diseased. BWAW, HAAW. HAW, HEE HEE. Lawrence > Lawrence, > > Check out http://www.ia4u.net/~maurice and click on "Software Ordering > Information". There is a software package for the C64 called "Invoice > Writer II" > > The programmer of this software is also an auto mechanic. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > > > A local general purpose mechanic who mainly works on Ski-doos in the > > winter and pumps and everything else in the summer gave me a complete > > Adam (!) collecting dust on the shelf, when I told him I collect computers. He > > mentioned he could use an old box to keep track of his parts inventory if I > > had any spares. I volunteered to supply him with something that would serve > > simple needs thinking of everything from a C-64 to an A2 or an XT to a 386 and > > that there must be 100s of programs that would be available. And no I don't > > want to configure a Database program. > > I did a Google search and found only the newest Gee-Whiz Winblows 9x, > > 2k, XP, and OSX programs, and while I haven't searched Simtel, out of > > frustration I've decided to defer to the list about older programs to track > > inventory and if it also has billing and labour, so much the better. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. It would serve as an example that > > older machines don't have to be delegated to land-fills. This area is in > > north- central Manitoba,Canada and not exactly a hotbed of technology. The > > temperature at present is -20 C, but the air is breathable. > > > > Lawrence > > > > > > > > Lawrence > > > > Reply to: > > lgwalker@mts.net > > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Dec 31 10:34:13 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Try it!!!! (Was - Re: One More PCB Dishwasher Question) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E04C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > While you hear a lot about 'classic' common old CPU's -- apple, radio > shack, > commodore do people find any homebrewed computers did that > all stop when > the S-100 bus came out? Well, I think I may have mentioned this earlier, but my Heath H8 has a wire-wrapped (nearly obviously home-brewed) daughterboard added on to the CPU card. The main CPU used to be 8080, but the daughterboard holds a Z80 and a couple other things. It seems to work. That's the closest thing I've seen. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From owad at applefritter.com Mon Dec 31 09:16:42 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Apple 2gs boards, what are they? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011231151642.16534@mail.earthlink.net> >> That's the controller card for Vitesse's Quickie Hand Scanner. > >> The connector is a mini Din-8. > >ADB cables, or the same as Svideo? ADB and S-Video connectors have 4 pins. I guess you could call them mini Din-4? Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Dec 31 14:04:14 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Apple 2gs boards, what are they? Message-ID: >The other is from Apple but I don't know what it is. It has a cable >off the back to a 25 pin connector. On the board is "Apple >Computer 820-0153-A" Over one set of chips it says something >about "sandwich II". I don't know any of the chips on it (never was >great at IDing more than a handful of chips). Could post pics if it >would help. This is an Apple High-Speed SCSI card. Allows you to hook up an external SCSI-1 device to the IIgs. A bit finicky (termination power, and some other gotchas), but works mighty nice when you get it all set up right. I believe it will also work on the IIe as well. See Rubywand's faqs (http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/A2FAQs2CONTENT.html in general, and http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/Csa2HDNSCSI.html for SCSI specifically) for more details... If you have no need of it, I can certainly use it in my IIgs... Rich B. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Dec 31 05:50:17 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment In-Reply-To: <20011230232142.25420.qmail@picarefy.picarefy.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011231034812.009fdc60@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 11:21 PM 12/30/01 +0000, you wrote: > Supposing one has a farm of older, relatively slower machines (Sun-2's, >Sun-3's, early SPARCs, 386es, very small VAXen, 68k-based Macs, etc.) >running various Unixes (mostly NetBSD), networked together and connected >to the Net. What does one do with it? > > I've been trying to think of some interesting, moderately useful >distributed-computing project that they could sit and crank away at I say run the software that was meant to run on each era of machine, and forget the distributed projects since most of the old iron is way too slow. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Dec 31 08:09:29 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:56 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment In-Reply-To: <20011230232142.25420.qmail@picarefy.picarefy.com>; from jwbirdsa@picarefy.com on Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 00:21:42 CET References: <20011230232142.25420.qmail@picarefy.picarefy.com> Message-ID: <20011231150929.C21934@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.31 00:21 jwbirdsa@picarefy.com wrote: > Supposing one has a farm of older, relatively slower machines > (Sun-2's, > Sun-3's, early SPARCs, 386es, very small VAXen, 68k-based Macs, etc.) > running various Unixes (mostly NetBSD), networked together and > connected to the Net. What does one do with it? NetBSD? Continuously bulding -current snapshots? (A MV II will need more than a month.) Continuously bulding bin-pkgs out of pkgsrc? (How long will a Sun 3 need for mozilla?) Providing a build / test environment for other NetBSD developers? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 11:31:14 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment In-Reply-To: <29.204998b9.29614fa0@aol.com> Message-ID: > y do u need a bigger network A bigger network might provide enough bandwidth to be able to parse actual real English, without the need to reduce words to homonym based single letter abbreviations. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp918.monmouth.com Mon Dec 31 07:25:38 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp918.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4.4 and VaxStation 3100 In-Reply-To: from Doc at "Dec 31, 2001 00:30:47 am" Message-ID: <200112311325.fBVDPcW07775@bg-tc-ppp918.monmouth.com> > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > Did Ultrix 4.4 Run on Vaxstation 3100's... > > > > I'd love to have one disk with Ultrix and another with VMS on it. > > So say we all.... From a more-than-casual search of usenet archives and > the web, I'd have to call Ultrix the Holy Grail of Vaxstations. If there > is such a creature, and anyone posesses it, they neither admit it nor > share it. > > Doc I think the main question is who could get Compaq to release the license for non-commercial use. This would require both them and Caldera (who owns the former-AT&T part of the license. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From pechter at bg-tc-ppp918.monmouth.com Mon Dec 31 07:28:06 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp918.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4.4 and VaxStation 3100 In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at "Dec 30, 2001 08:27:02 pm" Message-ID: <200112311328.fBVDS6Z07808@bg-tc-ppp918.monmouth.com> > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > > > > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > > > > > > We've run it on a 6000-440 for a couple of years here. Worked just > > > > > fine. This with Ultrix 4.4. We never upgraded to 4.5. But since the > > > > > hardware broke down six months ago, we rolled out 8650 back in. :-) > > > > > We'll probably start switching to NetBSD on it soon though. > > > > Did Ultrix 4.4 Run on Vaxstation 3100's... > > Dont know about 4.4 but 4.2 and 4.3 certainly do > > > > > I've got one here I'd love to run it on. > > NetBSD is doable, but I'd love the video support (assuming X11 worked on > > the Vaxstation 3100 under Ultrix -- I assume it would.) > > Sure does, but only up to the 3100/30/40/38/48. The 3100/76 (and beyond) > were never supported under Ultrix AFAIK... Sounds like I'm going to have to find a copy for the M38 here. Just hope some University dumps it around here. (most already have gone to newer stuff...) Bill From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Dec 31 07:50:38 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4.4 and VaxStation 3100 In-Reply-To: <200112310202.fBV22u005992@bg-tc-ppp445.monmouth.com>; from pechter@bg-tc-ppp445.monmouth.com on Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 03:02:56 CET References: <200112310202.fBV22u005992@bg-tc-ppp445.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20011231145038.A21934@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.31 03:02 Bill Pechter wrote: > Did Ultrix 4.4 Run on Vaxstation 3100's... Yes. Ultrix from ??? up to 4.5 supported the VS3100 up to (excluding) the VS3100m76. The m76 was the first "VMS only" VAXstation. AFAIK due to the fact that the DECstation was available at that time and DEC wanted to put the UNIX line over to the DECstations. > (assuming X11 worked on > the Vaxstation 3100 under Ultrix -- I assume it would.) AFAIK the SPX graphics was not supported, only the mono and GPX framebuffers. > Anyone know if it's in the Ancient Unix collection There is only Ultrix 11 for the PDP11 in the TUHS/PUPS archive. > or if 4.xBSD ran on it with X11 support at some time? No 4.xBSD did run on VAXstations. 4.xBSD supports only the big VAXen (11/7xx and 8600) and some QBus Microvaxen. (-Tahoe only the MV II, -Reno the MV II and III) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From kees.stravers at iae.nl Mon Dec 31 09:49:42 2001 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4.4 and VaxStation 3100 Message-ID: <20011231154942.EA1912128B@eomer.vianetworks.nl> On 2001-12-31 classiccmp@classiccmp.org said >> > Did Ultrix 4.4 Run on Vaxstation 3100's... I have here a VAXstation M38 which has Ultrix 4.5 running on it, the last available version. Ultrix only supports the older VAXstations. The SPX card is not supported, but the GPX is, so I'm seeing the GUI on the big monitor. Ultrix 4.5 is not Y2K compatible, but there are fixes. >> > I'd love to have one disk with Ultrix and another with VMS on >> >it. >> So say we all.... From a more-than-casual search of usenet >>archives and the web, I'd have to call Ultrix the Holy Grail of >>Vaxstations. If there is such a creature, and anyone posesses it, >>they neither admit it nor share it. The problem is that Ultrix/VAX is still copyrighted and can not be freely redistributed like Ultrix/PDP can, so sharing Ultrix/VAX is still a problem. >I think the main question is who could get Compaq to release the >license for non-commercial use. This would require both them and >Caldera (who owns the former-AT&T part of the license. Fred van Kempen, who revived the PDP-11 version of Ultrix and got a kind of shareware licence for it, is working on getting Ultrix/VAX licenced this way too, but that will take some time, as it is hard to find the right people who can decide on this matter. You can download the revived Ultrix-11 3.1 from www.tuhs.org, once you agree to the ancient unix licence as explained there. You should subscribe to the tuhs (The Unix Heritage Society) mailing list for news on any developments. Kees -- kees.stravers@iae.nl http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org http://vaxarchive.khubla.com Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From philpem at bigfoot.com Mon Dec 31 05:24:31 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD Message-ID: <003701c191ed$b9f06260$a6037ad5@phoenix> Hi, I'm trying to get a copy of Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video Cookbook" and "Son of Cheap Video" books, which are now out of print. Anyone got a copy of both books they'd care to scan in and upload somewhere or sell to me? What about the "TV Typewriter" article? I'm also after a Synertek SYM-1 (or SY-VIM-1), a MOS KIM-1 and an AIM-65. Anyone want to sell me one of these machines (or donate one to my computer collection :-)? Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.btinternet.co.uk/ From hansp at aconit.org Mon Dec 31 07:03:17 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD References: <003701c191ed$b9f06260$a6037ad5@phoenix> Message-ID: <3C306215.3010504@aconit.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi, > I'm trying to get a copy of Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video Cookbook" and > "Son of Cheap Video" books, which are now out of print. Anyone got a copy of > both books they'd care to scan in and upload somewhere or sell to me? What > about the "TV Typewriter" article? www.bookfinder.com located several copies of both books at various prices -- hbp From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 31 10:12:48 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD References: <003701c191ed$b9f06260$a6037ad5@phoenix> <3C306215.3010504@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3C308E80.801DCED7@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > Hi, > > I'm trying to get a copy of Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video Cookbook" and > > "Son of Cheap Video" books, which are now out of print. Anyone got a copy of > > both books they'd care to scan in and upload somewhere or sell to me? What > > about the "TV Typewriter" article? > > www.bookfinder.com located several copies of both books at various prices > > -- hbp But online would be nice! I think somebody has done a KIM clone on the web if you need a clone. From what I remember off the web a 'true' KIM used custom 65xx parts for I/O and memory select. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 14:00:36 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: KIM-1 (was Re: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD) In-Reply-To: <3C308E80.801DCED7@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20011231200036.67128.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > Hans B Pufal wrote: > > > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > I'm trying to get a copy of Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video > > > Cookbook" and "Son of Cheap Video" books I don't think the "Cheap Video Cookbook" would survive the scanning process (or at least, mine surely wouldn't - the binding would fragment and I would have a stack of loose sheets - easier to scan, but kinda messy for later). The guy who gave me the pile of S-100 stuff this week had "Son of Cheap Video", but he kept it. > I think somebody has done a KIM clone on the web if you need a clone. The KIM is one of the items on my list from that era to aquire (got a SYM-1 and an AIM-65). I'd love to see a website about a clone. Was it this - http://home.hccnet.nl/g.baltissen/kim-rb.gif - you were thinking of? A schematic, but no board layout (I can generate schematics all day long with OrCAD, but for a variety of reasons, I've never been able to successfully migrate one of my designs to a layout package, which is why the Elf99 project stalled). > From what I remember off the web > a 'true' KIM used custom 65xx parts for I/O and memory select. They do - custom 6530s - 1K ROM, 64 bytes of RAM, I/O and timer. Handy if you are trying to make a reduced-part-count machine. I think there's been some effort to imitate a KIM-1 6530 with a daughter-card, but I don't know if anyone has ever successfully emulated one. There's a *nice* KIM-1 page at, surprise, surprise, http://www.kim-1.com/ as well as Ruud Baltison's page at http://home.hccnet.nl/g.baltissen/kim.htm (Ruud is a frequent poster on the cbm-hacker's list) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 11:58:15 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD In-Reply-To: <3C306215.3010504@aconit.org> References: <003701c191ed$b9f06260$a6037ad5@phoenix> <3C306215.3010504@aconit.org> Message-ID: >Philip Pemberton wrote: > >>Hi, >> I'm trying to get a copy of Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video Cookbook" and >>"Son of Cheap Video" books, which are now out of print. Anyone got a copy of >>both books they'd care to scan in and upload somewhere or sell to me? What >>about the "TV Typewriter" article? > > > www.bookfinder.com located several copies of both books at various prices I've also had good luck with www.abebooks.com when it comes to finding out of print stuff. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 31 13:22:27 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD In-Reply-To: <003701c191ed$b9f06260$a6037ad5@phoenix> Message-ID: <3C306693.17764.986B1A4@localhost> While ISTR reference to a Don Lancaster "TV Typewriter" article, he put out a book called "TV Typewriter Cookbook". It is 250 pages and would be non- trivial to scan, besides which his books are still under copyright. He has a web-page and might have copies of his books. A search should turn it up. Looking at my copy I see it was originally published in 1976. I'd forgotten how early it was. His books also turn up on E-Pay occasionally. Lawrence > Hi, > I'm trying to get a copy of Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video Cookbook" and > "Son of Cheap Video" books, which are now out of print. Anyone got a copy of > both books they'd care to scan in and upload somewhere or sell to me? What about > the "TV Typewriter" article? > > I'm also after a Synertek SYM-1 (or SY-VIM-1), a MOS KIM-1 and an > AIM-65. Anyone want to sell me one of these machines (or donate one to my > computer collection :-)? > > Thanks. > -- > Phil. > philpem@bigfoot.com > http://www.philpem.btinternet.co.uk/ > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 14:32:43 2001 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (ysgdhio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD In-Reply-To: <3C306693.17764.986B1A4@localhost>; from Lawrence Walker on Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 01:22:27PM -0600 References: <003701c191ed$b9f06260$a6037ad5@phoenix> <3C306693.17764.986B1A4@localhost> Message-ID: <20011231153243.A31935@spies.com> Lawrence Walker writes: > While ISTR reference to a Don Lancaster "TV Typewriter" article, he put out > a book called "TV Typewriter Cookbook". It is 250 pages and would be non- > trivial to scan, besides which his books are still under copyright. > He has a web-page and might have copies of his books. http://www.tinaja.com/books/bkdons.asp From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 31 15:14:34 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <002a01c191f7$267f2160$a7469280@Y5F3Q8> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > > > I could have sworn that the regular single-pair telephone connector is > > > RJ11, and the two-pair/two-line one is RJ14. > > > > Sounds right to me... > > > > Quiz: Anyone know what an RJ31X jack is for? Google is cheating ;) > > Allows one to sieze a phone line for e.g. fire alarm system. Has an in pair > and an out pair with a shorting jumper that's moved when a (RJ45?) connector > is inserted. I'm gonna be putting in couple, one to keep the data calls > uninterruptable, and one for a future fire alarm. Cheaper than a second > phone line! A breakout cable should just take a few seconds to make, to > mate the one-connector 31X to a modem w/ phone in & out. Gosh, I figured that one would stump people for awhile. Heres a quick reference style list of RJ type connectors for anyone interested: http://www.shout.net/~wildixon/telecom/rj/rj.html -Toth From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 31 15:25:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > > The only place that I have EVER met any people who claimed to be > > "engineers" who might "have never heard of Amphenol" would be some > > university folk who have never set foot into the real world. > > "I'm an automotive engineer; I've never heard of 'Lucas Electric'"? > > Being a long-time British/European rider, I gotta ask... > Was Amphenol *that* bad? > > :^) > > Doc Well, even Lucas Electric was a quantum jump better than Magneti Marelli! - don From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 16:01:41 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Doc wrote: > > "I'm an automotive engineer; I've never heard of 'Lucas Electric'"? > Being a long-time British/European rider, I gotta ask... > Was Amphenol *that* bad? No I've had few (some, but few) problems with their connectors. The comparison with Lucas was intended only for their relative familiarity. "Q: Why do the British drink warm beer? "A: Lucas also make refrigerators." From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 31 15:20:11 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Eric Dittman "Re: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find" (Dec 31, 11:47) References: <200112311747.fBVHlBY25282@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <10112312120.ZM12536@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 31, 11:47, Eric Dittman wrote: > There was a recent thread on the linux-kernel mailing list about > changing all references to KB, MB, etc. to the new standard KiB, > MiB, etc. Some people were for the change, since the new names > are unambiguous, while others think it is kind of ridiculous for > a third-party to change the definitions that have been accepted > for years. I'm in the camp that 1KB of RAM is 1024B, and 1MB of > hard drive is 1024*1024B. That's what they've meant for years, > and the hard drive manufacturers playing with specs and getting > the public thinking 1MB=1000*1024B is not a good reason to change. It's a bit silly, really. 'k' is the SI prefix for 'kilo', meaning 1000, and 'K' was deliberately chosen for 2^10 or 1024 to be distinguishable. Pity about 'MB', though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 31 15:20:25 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Amiga Question Message-ID: <3C308239.5060.9F2B44B@localhost> I have an A3000 (as well as a 1000 and 2000) and when I use the sysinfo, it displays that I am using Workbench ver. 37.xxx. What does this refer to as compared to 1.3 and 3.1 ? Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 31 15:20:25 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <3C2ECCDB.2BA7E62A@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3C308239.30609.9F2B473@localhost> There are continually suggestions about the Cat-Weasel board. While I applaud the efforts of the developer, from what I've heard about it, there are performance problems on some platforms and at over $100 it doesn't seem like a viable option for most collectors. For other serious non-doze users it may be a god-send. Lawrence > SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > > Decided to pull out my amiga 500 and a PHOENIX hard drive that fits it. > > plugged it all in and the hard drive spins up, but the amiga still prompts for > > a system floppy. can a PC download and create an amiga system disk? i want to > > see what this computer is capable of. > > > > -- > > > > Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. > > A: No - needs extra hardware like a CATWEASEL board. > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 15:34:09 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E05C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: > > Has anybody ever actually SEEN and USED any software for the catweasel > > that will make an Amiga disk (NOT duplicate one that is present)? On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > Not me, though, I've seen documents (probably in UAE) that say you can > write disks to images and images to disks if you use it. The > linux/netbsd/freebsd drivers, from all I've seen and heard, should > access disks fine for making images and the like. That sounds promising. I'd still like to know if anybody has been successful. > > I think that "MatchPoint" might be their board that you're > > thinkking of. > I was thinking of compati-card, actually. I was un-aware that it had > this same limitation. Yes. It's a very nice 765 implementation. It can handle single density (I don't know off-hand whether they used a 37C65, or added extra logic), can handle 4 drives, can operate at other addresses to permit use as a second controller, etc. But it's still a 765. As such, it can not do GCR, can't do hard sectors, can't do MFM without WD style sector headers (AMIGA!), and can't even do some WD MFM formats that start the first sector too early. Allison could tell you EXACTLY what its capabilities and limitations are. > I may have to see if I can find one of these "MatchPoint" boards now, > though. What are my chances? I see them occasionally, but not often. > > What software is available for Mac to do Amiga disks? > Again, I seem to remember from docs that UAE will use it directly. > So you'd be stuck with a chicken-egg scenario where you need an image > of the O/S (or boot disk) to get it working. :) Otherwise it would > work fine. Hmmm. I'd like to hear if anybody has ever succeeded (as opposed to theoretical possibilities) > I have seen mappings for the linux fdparam (I think that's the > program..) which will make your system use the format at a low level, > and have heard that catweasel works with linux. In that case you can > image/unimage the disks pretty simply. Certainly the PC hardware, regardless of OS or other software can NOT do Amiga. Can the Linux catweasel drivers actually use the catweasel as its disk controller for the file system? Or is this an issue that the catweasel software (that does NOT work at a filesystem level) can also RUN under linux? > As for a program that reads/writes the filesystem (I assume that's > what you're asking...), I don't know of one, but I believe that given Yes, that's exactly what I'm interested in. Sorry, I should have been clearer. > the number of people interested in amiga emulation, somebody must have > written one. If they havent, get an amiga emulator set-up, and > chances are that will do it for you. (Again, I seem to remember > mention of this in the UAE docs) Has anybody, anywhere, EVER gotten a catweasel to work as a controller to do file system level operations? > I would, of course, be interested to hear from anyone who's really > tried it. :) Yes. I've heard a LOT of people say things like "it can do it" (without having actually tried) or "it could do it", or "it should be able to do it". But never that it DOES do it. I've yet to see any word from anybody who has successfuly gotten the catweasel to work in ANY way other than the most low level track read. It certainly SHOULD be capable. But there seems to be some problems getting the software working. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 31 15:25:38 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Xyplex terminal server In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E053@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > It just occurred to me that I have had a Xyplex terminal server > setting in the closet for a while. :) I have no software for it. Xyplex might still have the software available, they had a website as of a year ago. > It's not "classic," being relatively new, but I intent to use it to > hook my Unix PC, Kaypro 2, and perhaps some other things up to my home > network, so it's not completely off-topic. I guess it isn't quite a classic, yet. I imagine it was made in the early to mid '90s. > Does anyone know where I can find something to run it? I will try to > get the model number and post it. Right now all I remember is that > it's an 8-port (I think) model in a 1U package. I've got a dual floppy drive unit for one of these somewhere. I think it is labeled bad, but it's probably a simple logic board problem. If ya think you'll need it, drop me an email and I'll look for it. The whole unit slides into an empty slot on the terminal server chassis, so I don't know if it will fit your terminal server or not. I recently bought a Synoptics 3000 series chassis and then found a pair of terminal server cards for it, so I probably won't ever need the Xyplex drive unit I ended up with. I'd actually like to find 3-4 more of these Synoptics chassis and various cards to go in them. -Toth From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Dec 31 15:25:58 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers In-Reply-To: <3C306693.18466.986B1CE@localhost> Message-ID: Thought much into a smaller, more compact version of the 80 - the P70 or 75 portable? They;re also 386DX and can be carried from site to site, used with it's plasma display or an external VGA monitor, and can use up to a 120mb ESDI (or SCSI or IDE if you put a small controller card in) and can accept a regular long 8mb memory card. WAY smaller and easier to work than an 80 and it can be closed up when not in use. I have mine running Win95 with Quickbooks 5 for Windows. They go on ebay from $40 to $140 dependant on included items and come complete with keyboard, video, etc, you normally add a mouse. They also have a standard paralle port and 25 pin serial (for modem and printer of course). I'll be putting mine on ebay this week but I expect to get a lot for it since it's in collectable condition and I have a carry bag, original mouse, 120mb drive, 16mb ram, external floppy cable, etc and it's in like-new shape so for a GP machine I wouldn't suggest waiting for it. I've seen a few good condition machines selling for under $50 but they always have at least 10 bids for them. Also a model 70 desktop might fit t he bill as a lighter/smaller sub for the 80 - it might actually be a better choice, unless you can locate a 386 version of the model 25 - full vga color and ISA slots, uses about any HD/controller combo you want to throw in it. All the ones I have left are 8086 and 286, the 286 being DOA for parts. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lawrence Walker Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 1:22 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers Thanks all for the suggestions. I've decided to go with a spare IBM 8580 I have. They're built like a tank and could survive the rigors of a machine shop. Also I don't want to part with a precious Commodore xx02 monitor. :^) In looking at the current crop of Shop Management programs they all seem to be simply upgraded Doze programs using things like Paradox. And also very expensive. Using the 386 would also expand his options to include an accounting program, as well as other discontinued business programs with invoice printing, etc. I have a raft of old W3.1 and Doze software so I have to get creative on what I put on it's 2 small ESDE drives, keeping in mind that he is basicly computer-illiterate and that this is a small, self-supporting operation out in the boonies. Any guidance would be welcome. Kind of an "if you were setting up a small business PC in the late 80s what would you put on it" project. I find it humorously ironic that I made a decision between machines like the C-64 ( around $400) and an 8580 ($10k w/o any peripherals). Kind of a pay- back for the snub of a Mac salesman in the early 80s who coldly responded to my questions by quickly moving on to other customers after deciding I likely didn't have the $3000 outlay for an early Mac. He looked at me as if I was diseased. BWAW, HAAW. HAW, HEE HEE. Lawrence > Lawrence, > > Check out http://www.ia4u.net/~maurice and click on "Software Ordering > Information". There is a software package for the C64 called "Invoice > Writer II" > > The programmer of this software is also an auto mechanic. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > > > A local general purpose mechanic who mainly works on Ski-doos in the > > winter and pumps and everything else in the summer gave me a complete > > Adam (!) collecting dust on the shelf, when I told him I collect computers. He > > mentioned he could use an old box to keep track of his parts inventory if I > > had any spares. I volunteered to supply him with something that would serve > > simple needs thinking of everything from a C-64 to an A2 or an XT to a 386 and > > that there must be 100s of programs that would be available. And no I don't > > want to configure a Database program. > > I did a Google search and found only the newest Gee-Whiz Winblows 9x, > > 2k, XP, and OSX programs, and while I haven't searched Simtel, out of > > frustration I've decided to defer to the list about older programs to track > > inventory and if it also has billing and labour, so much the better. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. It would serve as an example that > > older machines don't have to be delegated to land-fills. This area is in > > north- central Manitoba,Canada and not exactly a hotbed of technology. The > > temperature at present is -20 C, but the air is breathable. > > > > Lawrence > > > > > > > > Lawrence > > > > Reply to: > > lgwalker@mts.net > > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Dec 31 15:29:24 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) In-Reply-To: <3C309C9C.4020703@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Ron Hudson wrote: > I am not sure of the age of the board but > Adaptec seems to think it's not supportable > any more... :^( > > Anybody have DOS ASPI drivers for the > ADAPTEC AHA-1542CF?? Adaptec still sells and supports this product. Have a look at their website. -Toth From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 31 15:34:41 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: WTB SGI Indy In-Reply-To: <041101c1923e$d1bdf780$8c00000a@mfpc> References: <200112311857.fBVIvvU64218@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >Anybody got any good suggestions on where to go to get a nice SGI Indy, >>just for playing around -- preferably cheap? I've seen Indy's on eBay for pretty cheap. It's when you start looking for top of the line stuff to play with, it starts getting rediculous. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jss at subatomix.com Mon Dec 31 16:06:26 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment In-Reply-To: <20011230232142.25420.qmail@picarefy.picarefy.com> Message-ID: <20011231041234.T8557-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 30 Dec 2001 jwbirdsa@picarefy.com wrote: > Supposing one has a farm of older, relatively slower machines [...] > What does one do with it? Attempt to write the Portable Distributed Ultimate OS To End Wold Suffering. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Dec 31 16:08:58 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers Message-ID: <157.6969ed6.29623bfa@aol.com> In a message dated 12/31/2001 4:02:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, jpero@sympatico.ca writes: << > From: "Lawrence Walker" > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:22:27 -0600 > Subject: Re: OT: Older inventory programs for home computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Thanks all for the suggestions. > I've decided to go with a spare IBM 8580 I have. They're built like a tank and > could survive the rigors of a machine shop. Also I don't want to part with a >> Can't go wrong with a PS/2! if anything can live in a bad environment, a PS/2 can do it. I'd change the ESDI for SCSI. controller cards and drives are cheap and plentiful. I can help in that respect... The only other machine that would be better is an IML based 386 slc PS/2. Then you'd have builtin SCSI and reference partition instead. -- From rdd at rddavis.org Mon Dec 31 15:37:06 2001 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #819 In-Reply-To: <200112311857.fBVIvvU64218@ns2.ezwind.net> References: <200112311857.fBVIvvU64218@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20011231213706.GD63215@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Richard Erlacher: [...] > detail. Where the language used in our society is rapidly heading for the > point at which everyone will only be taught a single syllable, leaving > inflections to communicate whatever little meaning there is, I'd suggest we, This reminds me... Did you ever notice that most thesauri appear to be written for people who apparently favor the use of single syllable words? Finding the most appropriate words in such thesauri is often dang near impossible, since most of the synonyms listed are intended for those with a seventh grade, or lower, vocabulary. It makes me wonder all the more about why increasingly larger sums of money are stolen from us by the government for "education." Have a happy new year! Robert -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 31 14:24:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <18e.141122d.29612cd9@aol.com> from "CLeyson@aol.com" at Dec 30, 1 09:52:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1058 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/f65f5291/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 18:38:51 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: ATTRIBUTION!!! (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote > > > In place of current accepted sloppy terminology, > > > how many remember what they were called THEN? > > Most of the engineers I work with have never heard of Amphenol or Cannon, That's twice today that you quoted something that was in reply to one of my posts, and left it such that people might think that _I_ had said it. Usually it wouldn't matter, but in THIS case, it is a remark that I thoroughly disagree with. _I_ was the one that responded to that by comparing those "engineers" with "automotive engineers" who hadn't heard of Lucas. I would NOT want such a person who had never heard of Amphenol to be permitted to call themself an "engineer"! BTW, sorry about the warm beer crack. American beer is only drinkable if it is almost frozen. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 31 14:41:49 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? References: <3C308239.30609.9F2B473@localhost> Message-ID: <3C30CD8D.8E509B1C@jetnet.ab.ca> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > There are continually suggestions about the Cat-Weasel board. While I > applaud the efforts of the developer, from what I've heard about it, there are > performance problems on some platforms and at over $100 it doesn't seem > like a viable option for most collectors. For other serious non-doze users it > may be a god-send. OK what was the AMIGA that ran both AMIGA and PC software ... (286 + 68000 ) cpu cards on a PC style box. Did that have a special software to write PC disks? I saw one once - but it was sure slow! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 18:06:17 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <3C30CD8D.8E509B1C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > OK what was the AMIGA that ran both AMIGA and PC software ... (286 + > 68000 ) > cpu cards on a PC style box. Did that have a special software to write > PC disks? > I saw one once - but it was sure slow! The Amiga hardware can easily write PC diskettes (at least 720K + 360K with the external 5.25") The PC hardware can not read or write PC diskettes. The AMiga can write ANY (or almost any) MFM format, within certain limitations, such as data transfer rate (which determines density). >From what I've heard, the Amiga could even do a very limited number of non-MFM types of formats. The PC can only write one specific type of MFM format that has WD style sector headers, although there are thousands of variations of that type of MFM format. http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.tml Writing any other format, such as one with a different kind of file system will require some special software for dealing with the file system differences. Central Coast Software (NOT related to Central POINT software) wrote a number of utilities for Amiga to transfer files to and from a good variety of other disk formats. There was also a softwware only PC emulator for the Amiga. THAT was slow. The 286 board was brought out to speed that up. But when somebody succeeds in teaching an elephant to fly, how much does it matter how fast and how much payload? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 18:18:52 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <3C30CD8D.8E509B1C@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3C308239.30609.9F2B473@localhost> <3C30CD8D.8E509B1C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >OK what was the AMIGA that ran both AMIGA and PC software ... (286 + >68000 ) >cpu cards on a PC style box. Did that have a special software to write >PC disks? >I saw one once - but it was sure slow! You're talking about an A2000 with the A2286 bridgeboard. It used a PC-style floppy disk connected directly to it and emulated CGA graphics on the Amiga display. There were various versions of the bridgeboard, going from the original 8088 to an 80386SX. There was also a sidecar for the A1000 which did much the same thing, as well as a bridgeboard from a 3rd party. For the A500 with a GVP HD8+, GVP made the PC286. It mounted inside the HD8+ and provided a 16mhz 80286, emulated up to mono VGA, and shared the Amiga floppy drives, though MS-DOS couldn't access Amiga disks. Unlike the bridgeboard's though this didn't allow the use of ISA expansion cards. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 31 16:29:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > Has anybody ever actually SEEN and USED any software for the catweasel > > > that will make an Amiga disk (NOT duplicate one that is present)? > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Not me, though, I've seen documents (probably in UAE) that say you can > > write disks to images and images to disks if you use it. The > > linux/netbsd/freebsd drivers, from all I've seen and heard, should > > access disks fine for making images and the like. > > That sounds promising. I'd still like to know if anybody has been > successful. > > > > I think that "MatchPoint" might be their board that you're > > > thinkking of. > > I was thinking of compati-card, actually. I was un-aware that it had > > this same limitation. > > Yes. It's a very nice 765 implementation. It can handle single density > (I don't know off-hand whether they used a 37C65, or added extra logic), > can handle 4 drives, can operate at other addresses to permit use as a > second controller, etc. > But it's still a 765. As such, it can not do GCR, can't do hard sectors, > can't do MFM without WD style sector headers (AMIGA!), and can't even do > some WD MFM formats that start the first sector too early. > Allison could tell you EXACTLY what its capabilities and limitations are. Fred, though I have never seen one, I have heard that they made some of the CCIVs with the National Semi FDC chips that were a bit more flexible than the 765. - don > > I may have to see if I can find one of these "MatchPoint" boards now, > > though. What are my chances? > I see them occasionally, but not often. > > > > What software is available for Mac to do Amiga disks? > > Again, I seem to remember from docs that UAE will use it directly. > > So you'd be stuck with a chicken-egg scenario where you need an image > > of the O/S (or boot disk) to get it working. :) Otherwise it would > > work fine. > > Hmmm. I'd like to hear if anybody has ever succeeded (as opposed to > theoretical possibilities) > > > I have seen mappings for the linux fdparam (I think that's the > > program..) which will make your system use the format at a low level, > > and have heard that catweasel works with linux. In that case you can > > image/unimage the disks pretty simply. > > Certainly the PC hardware, regardless of OS or other software can NOT do > Amiga. > Can the Linux catweasel drivers actually use the catweasel as its disk > controller for the file system? Or is this an issue that the catweasel > software (that does NOT work at a filesystem level) can also RUN under > linux? > > > As for a program that reads/writes the filesystem (I assume that's > > what you're asking...), I don't know of one, but I believe that given > Yes, that's exactly what I'm interested in. Sorry, I should have been > clearer. > > > the number of people interested in amiga emulation, somebody must have > > written one. If they havent, get an amiga emulator set-up, and > > chances are that will do it for you. (Again, I seem to remember > > mention of this in the UAE docs) > > Has anybody, anywhere, EVER gotten a catweasel to work as a controller to > do file system level operations? > > > I would, of course, be interested to hear from anyone who's really > > tried it. :) > > Yes. > I've heard a LOT of people say things like "it can do it" (without having > actually tried) or "it could do it", or "it should be able to do it". But > never that it DOES do it. > I've yet to see any word from anybody who has successfuly gotten the > catweasel to work in ANY way other than the most low level track read. > > It certainly SHOULD be capable. But there seems to be some problems > getting the software working. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 18:16:40 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Yes. It's a very nice 765 implementation. It can handle single density > > (I don't know off-hand whether they used a 37C65, or added extra logic), > > can handle 4 drives, can operate at other addresses to permit use as a > > second controller, etc. > > But it's still a 765. As such, it can not do GCR, can't do hard sectors, > > can't do MFM without WD style sector headers (AMIGA!), and can't even do > > some WD MFM formats that start the first sector too early. > > Allison could tell you EXACTLY what its capabilities and limitations are. > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > Fred, though I have never seen one, I have heard that they made some of > the CCIVs with the National Semi FDC chips that were a bit more flexible > than the 765. But those are still 765s, with the same basic capabilities and limitations. The added flexibility might help with the "first sector" issue, but it absolutely will NOT provide the RAW track read that would be needed for reading Amiga, GCR, etc. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 31 14:55:49 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:57 2005 Subject: KIM-1 (was Re: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD) References: <20011231200036.67128.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C30D0D5.1884CD77@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't think the "Cheap Video Cookbook" would survive the scanning > process (or at least, mine surely wouldn't - the binding would fragment > and I would have a stack of loose sheets - easier to scan, but kinda > messy for later). More like 'Good Video - Cheap paper-back cookbook' > The KIM is one of the items on my list from that era to aquire (got a > SYM-1 and an AIM-65). I'd love to see a website about a clone. Was it > this - http://home.hccnet.nl/g.baltissen/kim-rb.gif - you were thinking > of? A schematic, but no board layout (I can generate schematics all day > long with OrCAD, but for a variety of reasons, I've never been able to > successfully migrate one of my designs to a layout package, which is why > the Elf99 project stalled). Do Doooo Do Doooo You are now in the 6502 zone ... we control ... ... hey I am lucky to got out of their alive. I am not sure where I saw that. What is a lot on the web is the small PC's made in the UK, back then. They tended to use 'cheap video' style hardware and z80's so that may be a idea of where to look for ideas. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 31 15:27:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <3C301AA6.C7F92900@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Dec 31, 1 02:58:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1401 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/2ee38cb7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 31 15:32:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <009101c19219$d01bb900$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Dec 31, 1 11:40:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1011 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/84e7a441/attachment.ksh From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 16:22:24 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Amiga Question In-Reply-To: <3C308239.5060.9F2B44B@localhost> Message-ID: <20011231222224.89966.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence Walker wrote: > I have an A3000 (as well as a 1000 and 2000) and when I use the sysinfo, > it displays that I am using Workbench ver. 37.xxx. What does this refer > to as compared to 1.3 and 3.1 ? The large numbers are (in case you didn't know) the internal release numbers, the small numbers are marketing version numbers. >From http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/ 30.x - WB1.0 - 1985 31.x - WB1.1 - Dec, 1985 33.x - WB1.2 - 1986, 1987 34.x - WB1.3 - 1988 36.x - WB2.0 - 1990 (Early A3000s only) 37.x - WB2.04 - Oct, 1991 38.x - WB2.1 - Nov, 1992 39.x - WB3.0 - 1992 (A1200 and A4000 only) 40.x - WB3.1 - 1994 44.x - OS3.5 - Oct, 1999 45.x - OS3.9 - Dec, 2000 My first A1000 came with 1.1. WB1.2 was a major improvement over that (among other things, malloc now returned NULL rather than Guruing the machine, so it was safer to run a 256Kb Amiga (which I had at the time) This was initially done because early programs did not check the return of malloc and scribbling on 0 was frowned upon (and scribbling on 0x00000004 was fatal)) My next new Amiga was an A3000-16/50 - 16Mhz, 50Mb disk. Got it on an "upgrade" for my A1000. It came with WB3.0. I did go out and buy OS3.5 and OS3.9, but I haven't upgraded my main machine (an A4000 I brought back from N.Z. and converted to 110 - anyone need a working 220V A4000 PSU PCB?) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 16:35:00 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Amiga Question In-Reply-To: <3C308239.5060.9F2B44B@localhost> References: <3C308239.5060.9F2B44B@localhost> Message-ID: > I have an A3000 (as well as a 1000 and 2000) and when I use the sysinfo, >it displays that I am using Workbench ver. 37.xxx. What does this refer to >as compared to 1.3 and 3.1 ? What your A3000 has is it's original KS 2.04 chips installed. Anything in the 40.X ranger would be KS 3.1 and KS 1.3 is anything in the 34.X range. The list is available at the 'Amiga Interactive Guide', which seems to have recently gotten a facelift. The list of KS versions can be found at: http://amiga.emugaming.com/index2.html Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From lish at ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Mon Dec 31 16:28:15 2001 From: lish at ee.eng.ohio-state.edu (Shengchao Li) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Make up your mind soon. (was: Help, I will now buy another VAX 6000-420 in Virginia Beach, I can't possibly take that thing .... In-Reply-To: <3C30E53E.4090204@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: I want to have a 6000. But I don't have my own home and don't have a means to transport it... Hopefully after 1 year when I get my job there will still be some 6000 around. shengchao On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > The VAX 6000-400 is in Portsmouth VA (Virginia Beach area) and > for the most part is still up for grabs. The maximum fee I would > want is $24.99 to cover my eBay costs. If I take stuff out first, > there will be no charge for the rest. If there is real interest > I will leave it at a working system, otherwise I may remove things > more thorroughly. But make up your mind soon. I know that there > are no disks with it, and I will find out more and let you > know. If I don't hear a clear committment, there will be another > nice VAX going to into the melting oven. If you have never seen > a 6000: it's the size of an American fridge, weighs 800 lb (400 kg), > sucks 800 W power, needs 3-phase power or at least 220 V > (laundry dryer hookup.) I have instructions for a relatively > easy power conversion (just make another plug.) It does not (yet) > run NetBSD, but Ultrix 4.4 and 4.5 and may be Ultrix 4.2 and higher. > VMS of course. > > regards > -Gunther > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Dec 31 16:38:59 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Make up your mind soon. (was: Help, I will now buy another VAX 6000-420 in Virginia Beach, I can't possibly take that thing .... References: Message-ID: <3C30E903.90901@aurora.regenstrief.org> Shengchao. I'm sure there will be. May be even one of mine. Depending on how long it takes for me to get my 11/785 I will get rid of a few of machines just in time. I let you know when I'm ready, let me know when you are. -Gunther Shengchao Li wrote: > I want to have a 6000. But I don't have my own home and don't have a means > to transport it... Hopefully after 1 year when I get my job there will > still be some 6000 around. > > shengchao > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > >>The VAX 6000-400 is in Portsmouth VA (Virginia Beach area) and >>for the most part is still up for grabs. The maximum fee I would >>want is $24.99 to cover my eBay costs. If I take stuff out first, >>there will be no charge for the rest. If there is real interest >>I will leave it at a working system, otherwise I may remove things >>more thorroughly. But make up your mind soon. I know that there >>are no disks with it, and I will find out more and let you >>know. If I don't hear a clear committment, there will be another >>nice VAX going to into the melting oven. If you have never seen >>a 6000: it's the size of an American fridge, weighs 800 lb (400 kg), >>sucks 800 W power, needs 3-phase power or at least 220 V >>(laundry dryer hookup.) I have instructions for a relatively >>easy power conversion (just make another plug.) It does not (yet) >>run NetBSD, but Ultrix 4.4 and 4.5 and may be Ultrix 4.2 and higher. >>VMS of course. >> >>regards >>-Gunther >> >> >>-- >>Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org >>Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care >>Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine >>tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org >> >> >> >> -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Dec 27 19:46:16 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Orchid PCTurbo 186 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01Dec31.221133est.119092@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Does anyone have any information on the Orchid PCTurbo 186 upgrade board for the PC/XT, specifically jumper and switch settings? Is it like other PC/XT CPU upgrades that require a ribbon cable between the original CPU socket and the upgrade board? I remember when Orchid came out with the 286 upgrade boards, but don't remember this one based on tthe 80186. Thanks Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga 3000, Cyberstorm MkII 060/50, GVP Spectrum, Xsurf ethernet, Amiga OS 3.9, 4GB Quantum Fireball, HD floppy, 36MB FastRAM http://www.cchaven.com From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 13:47:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) References: <3C309C9C.4020703@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <003001c19234$0210e1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Look around for , AND . You'll also want AFDISK.EXE and the ancillary files for it, as well as SCSIFMT.EXE and its support files. If you can't find them somewhere, let me know and I'll email you a care package. The CF is a later version than anything I've got, but the drivers are purported to be the same. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" To: "Classic Computers Mailing list" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: Hep me!! scsi adapter DOS drivers (ot?) > --probably off topic... > > I am not sure of the age of the board but > Adaptec seems to think it's not supportable > any more... :^( > > Anybody have DOS ASPI drivers for the > ADAPTEC AHA-1542CF?? > > Tis an ISA scsi card with floppy attach > and I have it in a 486 machine > > ---------------------------------- > The machine seems to be a 486dx in a "lunchbox" > style case with color lcd. looks like a normal > motherboard is inside.. > > goes by the name of PCIII, with no other markings > as to MFG. > > Any one know anything about this? > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 14:17:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD References: <003701c191ed$b9f06260$a6037ad5@phoenix> <3C306215.3010504@aconit.org> Message-ID: <003a01c19238$286c61e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> These books all live and die on the notion that you can use a CPU to generate the video timing more cheaply than you can build equivalent logic. That was true in the '70's (when the TV-Typewriter Cookbook came out and it is just as true now. I once had 'em but haven't seen 'em in years, probably because I loaned 'em out. Have you tried the local library? I'd suggest you contemplate what this boils down to and save the expense and effort of reading and/or duplicating Lancaster's work. It's valid, but it's really much ado about nothing. It wasn't in the late '70's, however, since digital video generation was much less widely understood back then, which is why his books were such a popular item. One beauty of the 6502 is that it can be set up with a symetrical Phase-0 clock, which results in a symetrical phase-1 and phase-2 clock, which, in turn, supports sharing the static memory commonly used in shared memory systems between two processors. You simply feed one CPU the complement of the other's phase-0 clock and stand back. If one processor does the job of managing the communication between the keyboard and system and the other manges the video sync timing and the like, they never step on one another, though they can communicate with one another and share the same memory. If you want fast drawing, you simply map the video space into a small region for each of several processors on the same clock phase, with that same space shared with the one other processor who passes them parameters on the basis of which they do their work. The shared memory is contiguously mapped for the processor maintaining/refreshing the display, while it's in precisely the same place for the guys doing the drawing. As a result the video guy simply passes endpoints to each of the line/curve drawing processors, while each of them runs the same code in the course of drawing. The video guy decides who draws what and translates the specifications into segments for each drawing slave, then passes the appropriate parameters. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD > >Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > >>Hi, > >> I'm trying to get a copy of Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video Cookbook" and > >>"Son of Cheap Video" books, which are now out of print. Anyone got a copy of > >>both books they'd care to scan in and upload somewhere or sell to me? What > >>about the "TV Typewriter" article? > > > > > > www.bookfinder.com located several copies of both books at various prices > > I've also had good luck with www.abebooks.com when it comes > to finding out of print stuff. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 14:44:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? References: Message-ID: <005001c1923b$e9e7e8a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I may be out of turn here, but I think it's safe to say that the WD chips will have problems with a track read of GCR and other modulation schemes, since they're designed for FM and MFM only. A track read does not sample bits from the medium surface, but, rather looks, with timing synchronized with the clock presumably extracted from the FM/MFM bitstream, at the data sream coming from the drive and attempts to make sense of it in the context of its own track write (format) command. That means that when it thinks it sees an address mark, it returns the binary token that it accepts as the command to generate that address mark during a track-write command. I'd say you'll be disappointed with the WD FDC's ability to interpret GCR. Here's a description of the READ TRACK command from the data regarding the 179x in the 1983 WD Components Handbook. " Upon receipt of the READ TRACK command, the head is loaded and the Busy Status bit is set. Reading starts with the rising edge of the first encountered index pulse and continues until the next index pulse. All gap, header and data bytes are assembled and transferred to the data register and DRQ's are generated for each byte. The accuulation of bytes is synchronized to each address mark encounterd. An interrupt is generated at the completion of the command. This command has several characteristics which make it suitable for diagnostic purposes. The are: the Read Gate is not activated during the commandl; no CRC checking is performed; and the address mark detector is on for the duration of the command. Because the A.M. detector is always on, write splices or noise may cause the chip to look for an A.M. If an address mark does not appear on schedule, the lost data status flag is set. The ID A.M, ID field, ID CRC bytes, DAM, Data, and Data CRC Bytes for each sector will be correct. The gap bytes may be read incorrectly diring write-splice time because of synchronization. " Note that this neither confirms or denies my initial remark, but ISTR that I got that information somewhere else, but still from WD. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 12:16 AM Subject: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? > > > Yes. It's a very nice 765 implementation. It can handle single density > > > (I don't know off-hand whether they used a 37C65, or added extra logic), > > > can handle 4 drives, can operate at other addresses to permit use as a > > > second controller, etc. > > > But it's still a 765. As such, it can not do GCR, can't do hard sectors, > > > can't do MFM without WD style sector headers (AMIGA!), and can't even do > > > some WD MFM formats that start the first sector too early. > > > Allison could tell you EXACTLY what its capabilities and limitations are. > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > Fred, though I have never seen one, I have heard that they made some of > > the CCIVs with the National Semi FDC chips that were a bit more flexible > > than the 765. > > But those are still 765s, with the same basic capabilities and > limitations. The added flexibility might help with the "first sector" > issue, but it absolutely will NOT provide the RAW track read that would be > needed for reading Amiga, GCR, etc. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 22:29:08 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <005001c1923b$e9e7e8a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I may be out of turn here, Only a little, since you WERE trying to help. > but I think it's safe to say that the WD chips > will have problems with a track read of GCR and other modulation schemes, > since they're designed for FM and MFM only. A track read does not sample That's nice. But, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT GCR!!! WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT GCR!!! The Amiga is NOT GCR! The Amiga is NOT GCR! The Amiga IS MFM! But it does not have WD style sector headers. It reads and writes a track at a time, and parses it in software. There are no gaps, synchronization issues between sectors, etc. IFF the Amiga were to be GCR, like other Commodore machines, then your advice would be entirely correct and valid. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > bits from the medium surface, but, rather looks, with timing synchronized > with the clock presumably extracted from the FM/MFM bitstream, at the data > sream coming from the drive and attempts to make sense of it in the context > of its own track write (format) command. That means that when it thinks it > sees an address mark, it returns the binary token that it accepts as the > command to generate that address mark during a track-write command. > > I'd say you'll be disappointed with the WD FDC's ability to interpret GCR. > > Here's a description of the READ TRACK command from the data regarding the > 179x in the 1983 WD Components Handbook. > > " > Upon receipt of the READ TRACK command, the head is loaded and the Busy > Status bit is set. Reading starts with the rising edge of the first > encountered index pulse and continues until the next index pulse. All gap, > header and data bytes are assembled and transferred to the data register and > DRQ's are generated for each byte. The accuulation of bytes is synchronized > to each address mark encounterd. An interrupt is generated at the > completion of the command. > > This command has several characteristics which make it suitable for > diagnostic purposes. The are: the Read Gate is not activated during the > commandl; no CRC checking is performed; and the address mark detector is on > for the duration of the command. Because the A.M. detector is always on, > write splices or noise may cause the chip to look for an A.M. If an address > mark does not appear on schedule, the lost data status flag is set. > > The ID A.M, ID field, ID CRC bytes, DAM, Data, and Data CRC Bytes for each > sector will be correct. The gap bytes may be read incorrectly diring > write-splice time because of synchronization. > " > > Note that this neither confirms or denies my initial remark, but ISTR that I > got that information somewhere else, but still from WD. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Dec 31 16:22:54 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Make up your mind soon. (was: Help, I will now buy another VAX 6000-420 in Virginia Beach, I can't possibly take that thing .... References: <3C2FF12B.5080802@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3C30E53E.4090204@aurora.regenstrief.org> The VAX 6000-400 is in Portsmouth VA (Virginia Beach area) and for the most part is still up for grabs. The maximum fee I would want is $24.99 to cover my eBay costs. If I take stuff out first, there will be no charge for the rest. If there is real interest I will leave it at a working system, otherwise I may remove things more thorroughly. But make up your mind soon. I know that there are no disks with it, and I will find out more and let you know. If I don't hear a clear committment, there will be another nice VAX going to into the melting oven. If you have never seen a 6000: it's the size of an American fridge, weighs 800 lb (400 kg), sucks 800 W power, needs 3-phase power or at least 220 V (laundry dryer hookup.) I have instructions for a relatively easy power conversion (just make another plug.) It does not (yet) run NetBSD, but Ultrix 4.4 and 4.5 and may be Ultrix 4.2 and higher. VMS of course. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Dec 31 16:49:29 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Apple 2gs boards, what are they? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C309719.9684.6F2635B@localhost> > This is an Apple High-Speed SCSI card. Allows you to hook up an > external SCSI-1 device to the IIgs. A bit finicky (termination power, > and some other gotchas), but works mighty nice when you get it all set > up right. I believe it will also work on the IIe as well. See > Rubywand's faqs (http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/A2FAQs2CONTENT.html > in general, and http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/Csa2HDNSCSI.html for > SCSI specifically) for more details... Great! I was hoping that's what this was. I just wasn't sure. I've had a need for one for ages now. I'll go check those links as the next step is figuring out how to use it. I guess this and the memory card make it worth picking up the system. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 31 17:02:41 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Tape drive needed In-Reply-To: Re: Tape drive needed (Chad Fernandez) References: <3C2D6F74.5EC762F@internet1.net> <15406.2641.674926.466480@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3C30100C.94F63115@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15408.61073.565968.273992@phaduka.neurotica.com> Ahh, while another thread is busy eating bandwidth on the subject of terminology...it's a drive, not a drive in a chassis. ;) I'd have to find it first; I just moved. I think I know where it is, though. I'm most desperately in need of cash at the moment, but I can't imagine this drive being worth much. Got anything cool to swap? -Dave On December 31, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Dave is this an external or an internal drive? What would you want for > it? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > On December 29, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > The other day I found a SCO Open Desktop 2.0.0 media kit, on Qic24 > > > tape. I don't have the correct drive...... I don't have any tape drive > > > experience, actually. > > > > > > Does anybody have an unneeded Qic24 SCSI tape drive? I checked Ebay and > > > I didn't see anything that I thought was what I needed. > > > > This is going back into a very fuzzy memory...but does anyone know if > > an Archive 2150S drive (QIC-150) will read QIC-24 tapes? Those drives > > are pretty common, and they're standard SCSI so they don't require > > less common interface hardware. And, I think I have one. :-) > > > > -Dave > -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Dec 31 17:06:50 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Happy Holidays! In-Reply-To: <20011231124107.A1290@eskimo.eskimo.com>; from dpeschel@eskimo.com on Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 21:41:07 CET References: <20011226220529.C7508@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20011231124107.A1290@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20020101000650.G21934@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2001.12.31 21:41 Derek Peschel wrote: [porting pdksh-5.2.14 to 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73] > Why spend time with pdksh when you can get the real Korn shell > sources? :) I did not know that the ksh source is now free. But would it be easier to port ksh instead of pdksh? BTW: I have the object files build and I got them to link with only 6 overlays. But the executable dumps core... ...will need some time with adb... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Dec 31 17:14:42 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011231151340.009e9110@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 11:05 AM 12/31/01 -0800, you wrote: >OB_CC: That makes the old Apple ad exceptionally out of line. Apple's ad >said that if Edison were to have had an Apple, he could have simulated >everything, instead of actually having to try things out in his >workshop. Would he? Edison was much more a technition than an inventor. He took other peoples unique ideas and made working units. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 31 17:56:07 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Re: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find (Mike Ford) References: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20011231151340.009e9110@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <15408.64279.452143.807600@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 31, Mike Ford wrote: > >OB_CC: That makes the old Apple ad exceptionally out of line. Apple's ad > >said that if Edison were to have had an Apple, he could have simulated > >everything, instead of actually having to try things out in his > >workshop. Would he? > > Edison was much more a technition than an inventor. He took other peoples > unique ideas and made working units. True, but creativity certainly isn't limited to the "all theory and no practice" crowd. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 31 22:14:26 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT ColorPrinter find References: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20011231151340.009e9110@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <3C3137A2.5899FB0B@jetnet.ab.ca> Mike Ford wrote: > > At 11:05 AM 12/31/01 -0800, you wrote: > >OB_CC: That makes the old Apple ad exceptionally out of line. Apple's ad > >said that if Edison were to have had an Apple, he could have simulated > >everything, instead of actually having to try things out in his > >workshop. Would he? > > Edison was much more a technition than an inventor. He took other peoples > unique ideas and made working units. He had a few flops too! His pre-fab concrete homes were a failure. Pour cement in this home sized mold and out comes a home! His real invention was inventing 'inventing'. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 31 17:38:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 31, 1 01:03:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1929 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/da948fa7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 31 17:42:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 31, 1 11:05:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011231/a2915ec5/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Mon Dec 31 18:33:09 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: Message-ID: <003901c1925b$e3d74620$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I remember in the interval graduation+(1..10) I used Integration only once, and it was to calculate the position on a VHS tape given its spindle speed(s). Nowadays every VCR does real time display. Wonder why it took so long to happen? Imean it was only a 1-line polynomial. John A. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 31 19:12:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Re: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find (John Allain) References: <003901c1925b$e3d74620$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <15409.3305.616511.137108@phaduka.neurotica.com> On December 31, John Allain wrote: > I remember in the interval graduation+(1..10) I used > Integration only once, and it was to calculate the position > on a VHS tape given its spindle speed(s). > Nowadays every VCR does real time display. Wonder > why it took so long to happen? Imean it was only a 1-line > polynomial. Yes, but could it have been done back then without increasing the cost of the hardware very much? It probably would've involved a small microprocessor. Hmm, could such a thing be accomplished with a lookup table in a ROM? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Dec 31 19:09:31 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: <18e.141122d.29612cd9@aol.com> <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <009801c19260$f8c106c0$9a469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 01:03 PM Subject: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find > On December 31, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > The only place that I have EVER met any people who claimed to be > > "engineers" who might "have never heard of Amphenol" would be some > > university folk who have never set foot into the real world. > > Ahh, those "engineers" who don't know which end of a soldering iron > gets hot. > > A fond memory from around 1991, while working for a small defense > contractor in NJ, talking with a 2nd-year "summer slave" on loan from > MIT (of all places!). I'd assigned him to write some data reduction > code in FORTRAN for a remote sensing project, and later wound up > having to do it myself: > > Me: "This program needs a lot of work." > > Weenie: "Hah! Where did *YOU* go to school? See here:" > [weenie scribbles some incomprehensible equation on the whiteboard] > > Me: "I didn't. But I damn well know a REAL*4 on this VAX won't > deal with the IEEE-format floating point numbers from the > spectrometer without format conversion, for starters. > > Weenie: "WHAT?! [horrified look] You actually want to RUN this program?" > > Me: "Of course. Why the hell do you think I asked you to write it?" > > Weenie: "Isn't this just an exercise?" > > Me: "We are a defense contractor. We build machines to kill > people. Look at the size of my gut...we NEVER exercise > around here." > > Weenie: "Does this mean I have to type this program in, like on a computer?" > > Me: "No. You're fired." Ya know, this'll make a lot of funny .sigs, if you pick any set of two sequential lines. > > > -Dave Bob > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 31 19:55:08 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Message-ID: <3C30C29C.16789.AEE40B9@localhost> OK, I may be odd_man_out in this, but I remember from the beatnic 60s when a nice young black neighbor in an apartment building on Symphony Road in Boston(populated mainly bymusicians and artists) was working on a thesis at MIT about controlling atomic reactions by the depth of insertion of rods in radioactive core elements. He moonlighted by working at the Smithsonian which he loved. Most of the MIT students had very vigorous qualifying tests unlike Harvard where if you had family connections you could likely get in. I often wonder if his thesis had a role in 3 Mile Island which would be horrifying to him as he was then. So this nerd who is thinking about programming games without taking into account the uses that Corporations like Martin would employ them for, "a 2nd year summer slave" confronts the "real" world and despite the usual arrogance attitude of youth, who figure they know it all, is confronted by an superior who does know what these programs do. Other responses on your part so that he could decide whether or not he wants to seriously engage himself in these goals might have been a more benign response. Then if he decided to quit on moral grounds or not, introduce him to Ethics 101. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Lawrence > On December 31, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > The only place that I have EVER met any people who claimed to be > > "engineers" who might "have never heard of Amphenol" would be some > > university folk who have never set foot into the real world. > > Ahh, those "engineers" who don't know which end of a soldering iron > gets hot. > > A fond memory from around 1991, while working for a small defense > contractor in NJ, talking with a 2nd-year "summer slave" on loan from > MIT (of all places!). I'd assigned him to write some data reduction > code in FORTRAN for a remote sensing project, and later wound up > having to do it myself: > > Me: "This program needs a lot of work." > > Weenie: "Hah! Where did *YOU* go to school? See here:" > [weenie scribbles some incomprehensible equation on the whiteboard] > > Me: "I didn't. But I damn well know a REAL*4 on this VAX won't > deal with the IEEE-format floating point numbers from the > spectrometer without format conversion, for starters. > > Weenie: "WHAT?! [horrified look] You actually want to RUN this program?" > > Me: "Of course. Why the hell do you think I asked you to write it?" > > Weenie: "Isn't this just an exercise?" > > Me: "We are a defense contractor. We build machines to kill > people. Look at the size of my gut...we NEVER exercise > around here." > > Weenie: "Does this mean I have to type this program in, like on a computer?" > > Me: "No. You're fired." > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 31 19:55:08 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C30C29C.15494.AEE41CC@localhost> Well from what I've heard about the "father of electricity" and Henry Ford for that matter, he would hire a bunch of "promising" engineers like Tesla, take what they've already discovered, claim them as products of his own and become a wold-famous inventor. And of course, like Marconi, become the "inventor of Radio" which we are now celebrating, despite the fact that Tesla won a court decision in US courts to his primacy with it. History is written by the Victors. Lawrence > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ahh, those "engineers" who don't know which end of a soldering iron > > gets hot. > > A fond memory from around 1991, while working for a small defense > > contractor in NJ, talking with a 2nd-year "summer slave" on loan from > > MIT (of all places!). I'd assigned him to write some data reduction > > code in FORTRAN for a remote sensing project, and later wound up > > having to do it myself: . . . > > Me: "No. You're fired." > > I catch a lot of flack at the college for teaching real-world programming, > instead of UCBerkeley academic style. (such as teaching students to NOT > use scanf() for keyboard input (According to Ritchie, it was NEVER > intended for keyboard)). > > > There is a classic old story about Edison. > He had a college intern one summer. He handed the intern an empty > lightbulb and asked him to find out what the volume was. The intern > proceeded to calculate an equation for the shape, and integrate that > around the rotational axis. After a few hours, Edison took the bulb away > from him, filled it with water from the sink, and poured that into a > graduated beaker. > OB_CC: That makes the old Apple ad exceptionally out of line. Apple's ad said > that if Edison were to have had an Apple, he could have simulated everything, > instead of actually having to try things out in his workshop. Would he? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 31 17:34:31 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Secret Weapons of Commodore update Message-ID: <200112312334.PAA11560@stockholm.ptloma.edu> The 10th edition of the Secret Weapons of Commodore has been released, a collection of articles, photographs, specifications and lots of conjecture on unreleased, rare or unusual Commodore peripherals and computers. Here's what's newly discovered: * New entries: * The Multi-User Cash Terminal Register, with pictures! (thanks T.J.T. van Kooten) * Microchess for the Commodore 64 and KIM-1! By permission of Peter Jennings, the original programmer, the source code and hex dump of the original Microchess is available for download, along with a port to the C64/128 by yours truly authorised by Peter for those without a KIM-1. See also the Chessmate entry! (thanks Peter Jennings, Paul Foerster) * New pictures: * The VIC-21, including badge and box (thanks Bo Zimmerman) * TV Game 200K (Bo encore) * Ultimax MiniBASIC portrait and screenshot (thanks RaYzor) * Updates: * History of the VIC-21 (Bo double encore) * Updates to the 900 entry, including new photos link, cleanup of the history of the Z8000/80000, and footnote about the ZEUS (thanks Claus Schoenleber, Tony Duell, et al.) * Hardware information and complete history of the Chessmate thanks to its original creator (yes, Peter Jennings created the Chessmate too) * Analysis of the VIC-1001 ROMs vs. the VIC-20's (thanks Marko Makela, William Levak) * Where Agnus really came from (thanks Jim Williams) * What ICS means, Amiga graphics notes (thanks Ville Jouppi) * Where to find Magic Voice 6525 chips, and another MV cartridge (thanks Nicolas Welte, Nick Coplin) * various custodial updates The URL is, as always, http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/ Have fun, -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 18:49:42 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CORRECTION: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > The Amiga hardware can easily write PC diskettes (at least 720K + 360K > with the external 5.25") > The PC hardware can not read or write PC diskettes. Sorry. Typo. That should have read " The PC hardware can not read or write Amiga diskettes." 'Course sometimes it's true as originally written! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Dec 31 19:59:38 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? References: <3C308239.30609.9F2B473@localhost> <3C30CD8D.8E509B1C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3C31180A.E4C2B43B@ccp.com> Ben Franchuk wrote: OK what was the AMIGA that ran both AMIGA and PC software ... (286 + > 68000 ) > cpu cards on a PC style box. Did that have a special software to write > PC disks? > I saw one once - but it was sure slow! > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html There were several variations, starting with the A1060 Sidecar, which was nothing more than a PC clone in a nice box, with a shared memory address for graphics (mono or CGA color), and sharing the serial and parallel ports. Then Commodore came up with the idea of a bridgeboard, which was the same thing, but on a PC/Amiga style card for the Zorro bus. There were three variations from CBM (8088, 80286, and 80386) and one last one from Vortex (486SLC). Sad thing about these is that they sold for as much as a PC clone, and had no better features than the IBM's of their day. Nowdays they are considered a minus in the value of an Amiga computer. There also was a software package called the Siamese System, which ran on a PC under Windoze, with emulation and other tricks. This IMHO is a collectible item. Writing to PC disks is done with DOS-2-DOS, and that only does DSDD 720k disks with the internal Amiga drive. Gary Hildebrand From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Dec 31 20:48:18 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <3C31180A.E4C2B43B@ccp.com> References: <3C308239.30609.9F2B473@localhost> <3C30CD8D.8E509B1C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020101134704.023a92e8@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 07:59 PM 31/12/2001 -0600, Gary Hildebrand wrote: >There were several variations, starting with the A1060 Sidecar, which >was nothing more than a PC clone in a nice box, with a shared memory >address for graphics (mono or CGA color), and sharing the serial and >parallel ports. > >Sad thing about these is that they sold for as much as a PC clone, and >had no better features than the IBM's of their day. The main reason for me buying a Sidecar was that it was the cheapest (by a long way) of adding a hard drive to my Amiga and I got an IBM PC for free.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 15:38:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: <15408.43118.946001.168428@phaduka.neurotica.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20011231151340.009e9110@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <008501c19246$c9777620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, but even Edison wouldn't have spelled "technician" the way you did. Did they have spell-checkers on Apples? >From what I've read, Edison wasn't a technician, either, but, rather, was a manager type. He had the wisdom to see a good idea, though he clearly goofed with his take on electric power transmission. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: Re: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find > At 11:05 AM 12/31/01 -0800, you wrote: > >OB_CC: That makes the old Apple ad exceptionally out of line. Apple's ad > >said that if Edison were to have had an Apple, he could have simulated > >everything, instead of actually having to try things out in his > >workshop. Would he? > > Edison was much more a technition than an inventor. He took other peoples > unique ideas and made working units. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 23:21:08 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Too much college? (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <008501c19246$c9777620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From what I've read, Edison wasn't a technician, either, but, rather, was a > manager type. He had the wisdom to see a good idea, though he clearly > goofed with his take on electric power transmission. But didn't he develop the first practical commercial electric chair as part of his promotion of his power transmission system? Electrocution is much more energy efficient than having to melt a pot of iron. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 15:54:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: Message-ID: <008701c19246$c9f61c00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Even so, Tony, shouldn't WE, the purported experts on the archaic computers, be able to come up with a precise, if not communcative to the masses, way of saying what we mean without a long clarification? If WE use the wrong term amongst ourselves, we'll certainly never show others that there's benefit in calling it a crescent wrench when, to some folks, "the silver-colored thingie," would do. It would, IMHO, save lots of time and bandwidth, not just here, but all around. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: Re: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find > > > > There's always a place for the person who knows the correct > > and exact answer to something. (It just may not be where you > > are at that moment ) I for one don't get too bent out of shape > > I thought this list was composed mostly of technical types. And people > who are willing to learn. > > > when people can't speak our brand of "Doctor's Latin". "Fifty pin > > Centronics style" communicates the point to more people than > > the "Latin". Be ready to adapt to the audience. > > OK. I doubt this thread would have gone as far had the original > description of the printer been something like 'It's got 3 of those > Centronics-style connectors on the back. 2 50 pin ones (SCSI) and a 36 > pin one which might be a Centronics parallel interface'. > > There is a big difference (IMHO) between 'Centronics style connector' (a > common, understandable, even if technically incorrect, term for the > connector series we're discussing) and 'Centronics port' (a particular > type of parallel printer interface). > > > -tony > > From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 31 19:55:08 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <001801c191d4$fb347d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3C30C29C.2176.AEE4118@localhost> Damn. While I generally disagee with Richards approach on most things his recent postings are things I agree with. Remember the legend of the Tower of Babel ? Richard have you been smoking those funny little cigarettes ? And I'm even supportive of your views on Kwanza and Xmas. Maybe this new rural setting is changing my world-view. GAWD am I to become a New Hampshire Republican ? Lawrence > There are plenty of folks who think collectors of old computer hardware are odd. > One oddity I'd like to see adopted is a dedication to correctness in detail. > Where the language used in our society is rapidly heading for the point at which > everyone will only be taught a single syllable, leaving inflections to > communicate whatever little meaning there is, I'd suggest we, at least, take it > upon ourselves to learn and use the correct terminology, painful as it may be. > > more below, BTW. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 1:57 AM > Subject: Nomenclature (was: NEXT Color Printer find > > > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > Tony is correct. > > > Regrettably, Jameco has fallen into the bastardization/mongrelization of the > > > language. Looking at a page of a 1962 Allied Radio catalog, I see listings > > > and illustrations of the Amphenol "Blue Ribbon" connectors in sizes running > > > from 8-32 contacts. They obviously derived their name from the blue Diallyl > > > phthalate dielectric that carried the ribbon-like contacts. > > > > Don provides a hint to the correct approach. > > Invoke the 10 year rule. > > > > In place of current accepted sloppy terminology, > > how many remember what they were called THEN? > > > A lot of this nomenclature problem came about when folks started referring > to the DB25 (and it is a 'B' shell) as an "RS232" connector. > > IIRC, both the 'D' subminitature connectors, e.g. DE9, DA15, DB25, DC37, > DD50 ... and the "Blue-Ribbon" series were Amphenol products, the patent on > which expired in the late '70's. Consequently the trade names became muddled in > various competitors' nomenclature. If somebody has kept old Cramer, Newark, > Allied, and other catalogs of the late '60's and early '70's, (which I haven't) > the nomenclature should be much clearer there. > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 15:58:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: NEXT Color Printer find References: Message-ID: <008801c19246$ca17adc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Sadly, if we allow the language to degenerate in the direction in which it's been "progressing" over the past three decades, we'll reach a point where all our words are of a single syllable and only the inflections will signify meaning. That's back to pre-Neanderthal communication, isn't it? 't seems as though everyone wants to conceal the weaknesses in their own knowledge (and vocabluarly) by allowing others to fill in the blanks. Unfortunately, the point at which we've now arrived is one where there are more blanks than words. This isn't irreprarable, is it? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 9:27 PM Subject: Re: NEXT Color Printer find > > > > > > > > > Only in the last 5-8 years have I seen them referred to as Centronics. > > > > I'm sure I saw it as far back as the mid to late 80's. > > > > > Just because a name is commonly (mis)used in a particular way, > > > doesn't mean it's correct, > > > > Ahh, but language is a constantly evolving process. The primary > > purpose of which is to convey understanding. So being technically > > correct, but failing to convey the meaning intended, is not good. > > And being technically incorrect and causing confusion is certainly a Bad > Thing.... > > If we go back to the device that started this thread, it was a printer > described as having 3 Centronics ports. That to me would imply a printer > with 3 parallel inputs, so that it could be shared between 3 computers. > Not a printer that has a SCSI interface. > > > Especially when ordering parts over the telephone? At least now > > If I'm ordering parts, I generally have the appropriate catalogue or > service manaul open. So I am ordering using an unambiguous part number. > It doesn't matter what the discription in the catalogue/manaul is, I can > order the right part. > > > Also, a meaning valid 20 years ago, may have become something > > different 10 years later. What is and what isn't actually > > correct might only be able to be determined by consulting a > > When language evolves in a way that causes confusion, then the changes > need to be resisted IMHO. > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Dec 31 16:11:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? References: Message-ID: <00a401c19248$10fb74a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Then why the statement, " But it's still a 765. As such, it can not do GCR, ...?" That's the only reason I mentioned GCR at all. Clearly, I misinterpreted the key issue. Happy New Year! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 4:29 AM Subject: Re: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I may be out of turn here, > Only a little, since you WERE trying to help. > > > but I think it's safe to say that the WD chips > > will have problems with a track read of GCR and other modulation schemes, > > since they're designed for FM and MFM only. A track read does not sample > > That's nice. But, > WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT GCR!!! > WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT GCR!!! > > The Amiga is NOT GCR! > The Amiga is NOT GCR! > > The Amiga IS MFM! But it does not have WD style sector headers. > It reads and writes a track at a time, and parses it in software. There > are no gaps, synchronization issues between sectors, etc. > That's almost enough to make one wonder why they used MFM. Had they used RLL, which requires no complicated, or even simple modulator, they'd have had half-again the capacity. > > IFF the Amiga were to be GCR, like other Commodore machines, then your > advice would be entirely correct and valid. > I'm sure your point is well taken. It's just that I was addressing another aspect of the source post. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > > bits from the medium surface, but, rather looks, with timing synchronized > > with the clock presumably extracted from the FM/MFM bitstream, at the data > > sream coming from the drive and attempts to make sense of it in the context > > of its own track write (format) command. That means that when it thinks it > > sees an address mark, it returns the binary token that it accepts as the > > command to generate that address mark during a track-write command. > > > > I'd say you'll be disappointed with the WD FDC's ability to interpret GCR. > > > > Here's a description of the READ TRACK command from the data regarding the > > 179x in the 1983 WD Components Handbook. > > > > " > > Upon receipt of the READ TRACK command, the head is loaded and the Busy > > Status bit is set. Reading starts with the rising edge of the first > > encountered index pulse and continues until the next index pulse. All gap, > > header and data bytes are assembled and transferred to the data register and > > DRQ's are generated for each byte. The accuulation of bytes is synchronized > > to each address mark encounterd. An interrupt is generated at the > > completion of the command. > > > > This command has several characteristics which make it suitable for > > diagnostic purposes. The are: the Read Gate is not activated during the > > commandl; no CRC checking is performed; and the address mark detector is on > > for the duration of the command. Because the A.M. detector is always on, > > write splices or noise may cause the chip to look for an A.M. If an address > > mark does not appear on schedule, the lost data status flag is set. > > > > The ID A.M, ID field, ID CRC bytes, DAM, Data, and Data CRC Bytes for each > > sector will be correct. The gap bytes may be read incorrectly diring > > write-splice time because of synchronization. > > " > > > > Note that this neither confirms or denies my initial remark, but ISTR that I > > got that information somewhere else, but still from WD. > > From Golemancd at aol.com Mon Dec 31 19:22:00 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment Message-ID: i agree about the os but i dont agree on the attempt part dont attempt it. do it. a computer is not that complex of a machine at least a pc. an os is all theory and vision. u can think up an entire os away from any pc. u could then just go in and code the entire thing. the hard part is thinking up what it is that u want and how it has to work. the coding and so forth is the easy part. this is the exact project i am working on now joee From Golemancd at aol.com Mon Dec 31 19:33:01 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment Message-ID: <91.15e32a71.29626bcd@aol.com> my thinking was to just devide the data up into threads and have each thread work on a part of the data at a time. whether this be one cpu or several. one thread could be listening and deligating and other threads could be doing the rest of the work. not sure how much processor power it would take but originally i was just thinking about the network sort of just passing messages with each bot having its own processor internally. and handling it itself or maybe having the network do the work and pass text to the bot . joe From Golemancd at aol.com Mon Dec 31 19:39:53 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment Message-ID: In a message dated 12/31/01 11:36:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de writes: << http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ >> i would say connect it to the web with a modern pc and use the bandwith of whatever connection u have with that pc and write a program to write messages to each compute on the network joee From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Dec 31 19:55:08 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Trailing-edge compute farm seeks gainful employment In-Reply-To: References: <29.204998b9.29614fa0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C30C29C.27819.AEE416D@localhost> And actually force people to learn how to spell without the use of a spell- checker. I remember how aghast I was when I learned my sons school allowed the use of calculators in math exams. Right On, Fred. I was going to reply to this would-be hacker's input but brushed it off as more juvenal crap. Lawrence > > y do u need a bigger network > > A bigger network might provide enough bandwidth to be able to parse > actual real English, without the need to reduce words to homonym based > single letter abbreviations. > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 31 19:56:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: ATTRIBUTION!!! (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 31, 1 04:38:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 796 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020101/0546f749/attachment.ksh From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Dec 31 19:59:54 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: KIM-1 (was Re: Cheap Video cookbooks and machines WTD) Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > The KIM is one of the items on my list from that era to aquire (got a > SYM-1 and an AIM-65). I'd love to see a website about a clone. Was it > this - http://home.hccnet.nl/g.baltissen/kim-rb.gif - you were thinking > of? A schematic, but no board layout (I can generate schematics all day > long with OrCAD, but for a variety of reasons, I've never been able to > successfully migrate one of my designs to a layout package, which is why > the Elf99 project stalled). Ethan, I have Orcad 9 Capture and Layout and could provide some PCB resourse if needed. Design would probably be double sided. A single sided PCB design would be prefered from a "homebrew" point of view but I don't think it would be practical. Chris Leyson From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Dec 31 22:09:59 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Engieers (was: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find Message-ID: <125.990ac39.29629097@aol.com> In replay to my moan about engineers not being able to build Christmas tree lights, Tony Duell writes: > Do you own a suitably large LART? I've given up with the LART, it just doesn't work - re-education is a better approach - but then it doesn't work on the brain dead. > I must have told the story of the 362.8 ohm resistor. In case I haven't, > it goes like this...... I used to own an 8in Shugart drive a long time ago. For some strange reason that I couldn't understand it was stuffed with E96 resisors. Perhaps they were cheaper than E24 ? > I've come to the conclusion that the best (electronic?) engineers and > programmers are all essentially self-taught. It's probably much the same > in all creative subjects. I'd agree > ......You may argue that much of engineering these days is not about making > things, and that engineers rarely need these skills (that is a separate rant)... I'd argue that engineering is all about making things. OK, perhaps engineers don't need practical skills so much these days, but an understanding of other engineering disiplines is essential. You have to be able to understand the "other guy's" point of view, whether it be hardware, software, manufacturing or management. Lawrence Walker wrote: > Well from what I've heard about the "father of electricity" and Henry Ford for > that matter, he would hire a bunch of "promising" engineers like Tesla, > take what they've already discovered, claim them as products of his own > and become a wold-famous inventor. And of course, like Marconi, become the > "inventor of Radio" which we are now celebrating, despite the fact that Tesla > won a court decision in US courts to his primacy with it. History is written by > the Victors. I hope you meant Faraday as the "father of electricity" and not Edison. As for Marconi, I'd say he "pioneered" radio engineering but wouldn't have got very far if it hadn't been for Hertz. I'm not sure how Tesla fits into the picture, he did invent the squirel cage induction motor but I'm not aware of any major contributions he made to radio engineering. Chris From mhstein at usa.net Mon Dec 31 22:21:53 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (Mike Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:58 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find Message-ID: <20020101042153.23667.qmail@uadvg009.cms.usa.net> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:30:31 -0600 (CST) From: Doc Having not only been a rider myself, but also a Triumph/BSA dealer in a past life, not to mention having owned my share of Austins, Hillmans, etc., I'm ROFLMAO... mike ------------Original Message------------ Subject: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > The only place that I have EVER met any people who claimed to be > "engineers" who might "have never heard of Amphenol" would be some > university folk who have never set foot into the real world. > "I'm an automotive engineer; I've never heard of 'Lucas Electric'"? Being a long-time British/European rider, I gotta ask... Was Amphenol *that* bad? :^) Doc ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Dec 31 17:32:45 2001 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find References: Message-ID: <002201c19253$75591dc0$9a469280@Y5F3Q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 04:14 PM Subject: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Robert Schaefer wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Boatman on the River of Suck wrote: > > > > > > > I could have sworn that the regular single-pair telephone connector is > > > > RJ11, and the two-pair/two-line one is RJ14. > > > > > > Sounds right to me... > > > > > > Quiz: Anyone know what an RJ31X jack is for? Google is cheating ;) > > > > Allows one to sieze a phone line for e.g. fire alarm system. Has an in pair > > and an out pair with a shorting jumper that's moved when a (RJ45?) connector > > is inserted. I'm gonna be putting in couple, one to keep the data calls > > uninterruptable, and one for a future fire alarm. Cheaper than a second > > phone line! A breakout cable should just take a few seconds to make, to > > mate the one-connector 31X to a modem w/ phone in & out. > > Gosh, I figured that one would stump people for awhile. Heres a quick > reference style list of RJ type connectors for anyone interested: I install fire alarm systems... Now, if you had asked me which one connects the handset to the phone, you'd have me stumped! > > http://www.shout.net/~wildixon/telecom/rj/rj.html Gonna write this down. Thanks! > > -Toth Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 18:52:55 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW, the stnadard for HPIB jackscrews is M3.5 (metric). I've had to make > such parts on occasions. One HP manual I was reading recently said that > the instrument used metric screws on the connectors, and that a > conversion kit (presumably consisting of 2 jackscrews) was available for > converting older HPIB cables. So I assume that the original HPIB used UNC > jackscrews (probably 6-32). OUCH!! Changing something like that midstream can really mess up those of us who are clumsy, careless, and not alert! 'Course that now makes the old style ones into R@RE VALUABLE collector's items :-) From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Dec 31 19:14:52 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find Message-ID: <6f.2037431c.2962678c@aol.com> In a message dated 31/12/01 Tony Duell writes >> Most of the engineers I work with have never heard of Amphenol or Cannon, >Then I would suggest you're working with engineers who are not > particularly knowledgable about practical electronics. If they're (say) > mechanical engineers or civil engineers, then no problem. If they claim > to tbe electronic engineers I'd probably dispute that claim. I agree, last year they couldn't even build a set of LED Christmas tree lights without blowing them up, never heard of constant current drive !!! I'm not talking about graduates straight out of college but people who've been in industry for a few years. In the engineering department I work in there is only ONE other true practical engineer who lays out his own PCBs, is keen to learn about new and emerging technologies etc. He is, like myself, mostly self taught, and has a passion for this stuff - a rare breed these days. But there we are - pay peanuts and get monkies. > Far too many courses (in all aspects of science and engineering) miss out > the simple practical stuff. Without which the complicated stuff is essentially > useless.. Agreed, I believe any so called engineer should have a practical "hands on" experience in both hardware and software, after all if they don't understand the basics they are of little use. >> On the subject of D-sub connectors I've sometimes come across some with >> metric threaded jackscrews instead of the usual UNF thread, or is it UNC ? > I thought it was 4-40 UNC.... Thanks Tony, wasn't sure of the thread. > FWIW, the stnadard for HPIB jackscrews is M3.5 (metric). I've had to make > such parts on occasions. One HP manual I was reading recently said that > the instrument used metric screws on the connectors, and that a > conversion kit (presumably consisting of 2 jackscrews) was available for > converting older HPIB cables. So I assume that the original HPIB used UNC > jackscrews (probably 6-32). One day I will have to do a search for the original IEEE-488 standard just to see what they specify. I suspect that jackscrew threads are not part of the standard. Chris From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Dec 31 16:58:19 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: References: <6f.2037431c.2962678c@aol.com> from "CLeyson@aol.com" at Dec 31, 1 08:14:52 pm Message-ID: <20020101035257.PDKD26587.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 02:08:07 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > >Then I would suggest you're working with engineers who are not > > > particularly knowledgable about practical electronics. If they're (say) > > > mechanical engineers or civil engineers, then no problem. If they claim > > > to tbe electronic engineers I'd probably dispute that claim. > > > > I agree, last year they couldn't even build a set of LED Christmas tree lights > > without blowing them up, never heard of constant current drive !!! I'm not > > Do you own a suitably large LART? > > I must have told the story of the 362.8 ohm resistor. In case I haven't, > it goes like this. > > I was working in a lab at a university over here when some final year > engineering student asked me for a 362.8 ohm resistor 'as there are none > in the drawer'. I said that I was not suprised, and asked him what on > earth he needed it for. Glug! Almost sprayed water on my precious IBM keyboard.! Even 180 Ohms is good enough driven directly from TTL. :-) > The answer? An LED current limiting resistor. Apparently he'd taken the Snip! > I've come to the conclusion that the best (electronic?) engineers and > programmers are all essentially self-taught. It's probably much the same > in all creative subjects. Practical experience and hard knocks school is your best teacher , I agree. Blow up, screw up some stuff as you learn as you go on is required. Straightening out those mistakes if you can discover is excellent way to learn. > [...] > > > Agreed, I believe any so called engineer should have a practical "hands on" > > experience in both hardware and software, after all if they don't understand > > the > > basics they are of little use. > I wonder if the HPIB spec (if it was ever published) specifies the > jackscrew threads. Might be not existent. 4-40 is right for those kind. > -tony Cheers, Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 31 20:08:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: <6f.2037431c.2962678c@aol.com> from "CLeyson@aol.com" at Dec 31, 1 08:14:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020101/99de33df/attachment.ksh From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 31 23:23:21 2001 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > Well, even Lucas Electric was a quantum jump better than Magneti > Marelli! Point well taken. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 23:34:41 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: <00a401c19248$10fb74a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Then why the statement, " But it's still a 765. As such, it can not do GCR, > ...?" That's the only reason I mentioned GCR at all. The "only a 765" was in rebuttal to the possibility that the Compaticard would have "significant" additional capabilities over other disk controller cards. In other ways besides the issue of Amiga under discussion. Neither major family of disk controller chips can do GCR. GCR, hard sectoring, etc. are merely SOME of the limitations of an FDC. But the problem with AMiga isn't GCR. It's MFM without the WD structure. In the case of 765 v WD, the WD "raw" track read v the parsed read of the 765 becomes significant. The WD can be used to do Amiga, but with a few complications. Handling of stuff that could be misinterpreted as commands to do address marks might be one. > Clearly, I misinterpreted the key issue. Only in terms of the central issue of R/W Amiga. > Happy New Year! Have a good one -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 31 23:37:40 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > Yes. It's a very nice 765 implementation. It can handle single density > > > (I don't know off-hand whether they used a 37C65, or added extra logic), > > > can handle 4 drives, can operate at other addresses to permit use as a > > > second controller, etc. > > > But it's still a 765. As such, it can not do GCR, can't do hard sectors, > > > can't do MFM without WD style sector headers (AMIGA!), and can't even do > > > some WD MFM formats that start the first sector too early. > > > Allison could tell you EXACTLY what its capabilities and limitations are. > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > Fred, though I have never seen one, I have heard that they made some of > > the CCIVs with the National Semi FDC chips that were a bit more flexible > > than the 765. > > But those are still 765s, with the same basic capabilities and > limitations. The added flexibility might help with the "first sector" > issue, but it absolutely will NOT provide the RAW track read that would be > needed for reading Amiga, GCR, etc. > Agreed! But were they not also, perhaps, capable of coping with the `dreaded' 128byte MFM sector bugaboo? - don From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Dec 31 19:25:49 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Connectors (was: NEXT Color Printer find Message-ID: >I install fire alarm systems... Now, if you had asked me which one connects >the handset to the phone, you'd have me stumped! I had been taught that was a Rj-11 "handset", which has never really sat well with me... but it is what I was taught, and it is what my telco catalogs list the part as, so I had to accept it. Thanks to that link, it is claimed to be an RJ-22, which sits MUCH better with me since it has its own designation. I can't speak for its accuracy as it is the first time I have heard that, but if I had to pick, I would go with RJ-22 over RJ-11 "handset". Oh, and I was taught in the field all my telco knowledge, never went to school... it is learned from various Bell and private installers/techs/whathaveyou... so who knows how accurate they are, but I tend to give them more credence than most schools (except maybe some Bell installers, the older ones are good, but most of the younger ones suck royally) -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 31 23:57:38 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:59 2005 Subject: Compaticard (was: Any AMIGA users? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > But those are still 765s, with the same basic capabilities and > > limitations. The added flexibility might help with the "first sector" > > issue, but it absolutely will NOT provide the RAW track read that would be > > needed for reading Amiga, GCR, etc. On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > Agreed! But were they not also, perhaps, capable of coping with the > `dreaded' 128byte MFM sector bugaboo? That would be sweet. Now I'm going to have to dig out the totes of extra disk controller cards and see which ones I have. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ken at seefried.com Sun Dec 30 15:17:14 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:21:04 2005 Subject: What 's a 3Com 3c515 worth these days? In-Reply-To: <200112261612.fBQGCNP39616@ns2.ezwind.net> References: <200112261612.fBQGCNP39616@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20011230211714.6679.qmail@mail.seefried.com> > On the other hand, Linux might support the old stuff like > this much better. Linux does indeed have drivers for the 3c515, written by Don Becker (just like almost every other network card driver in Linux). Web page for the driver is at http://www.scyld.com/network/3c515.html. I have never used them. Ken From ip500 at home.com Sun Dec 9 08:13:27 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:21:11 2005 Subject: Seeking info and parts for MicroVax II BA123 References: Message-ID: <3C137187.CB7352B1@home.com> Here's a link to an eBay auction with a bunch of boards to upgrade to III status: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1307959433 No connection ....I just happened to see it this morning. I THINK I have a door available .. currently buried in storage. I'll take a look and Monday and drop you a note off-list. Craig Tothwolf wrote: > > Well, after all the talk about a MicroVax II BA123 on the list lately, I > managed to unbury mine. It appears to be all original except for 2 hard > drives that may have been added as an upgrade. All the boards match up > with the DEC sticker with handwritten board numbers. It has the standard > cpu board, what seems to be a 2mb ram board, a serial interface board w/ 8 > ports, and the standard scsi and tape interface boards. It also has some > sort of loopback board in the upper 3rd slot. Does anyone have a link to > reference info on these boards? I'd like to find a pair of 8mb ram boards > and a network interface for this thing, so I can put it back in service > for open source software development/testing. I don't know the part > numbers for these boards, so any extra info would be great. I'm also > looking for the door that covers the front control panel, as this machine > seems to have lost its door at some point before I rescued it. If anyone > has any of these parts laying around, please drop me an email. I'm more > then willing to pay shipping. I really don't think I have much of anything > anyone here would want as a trade, so I'm willing to pay for the parts too > if required. > > Another interesting tidbit about this box, it still has its inventory > sticker from NASA, and it orig cost good old uncle sam $22,000+. Anyone > else wonder why they didn't have it outfitted with a network interface of > somesort, especially with it costing that much already? > > -Toth From celt at chisp.net Sat Dec 1 00:41:31 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question : References: <3C066727.30408@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3C087B9B.10508@chisp.net> > > List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the > reason for choosing each. > > -- hbp : just for fun ;) > > > Apple I - duh... Apple /// - One of Big Red's first failures, and an epic testament to Jobs' early insanity. Canon Cat - I heard a rumor that this thing was built from early Raskin design proposals for the Mac. Newton - a good idea, poorly executed 'Mark Twain' Apple IIgs Commodore C-65 Osborne - the first (?) portable/luggable MITS Altair Amiga - ahead of it's time Traf-O-Data automatic traffic measuring device - Microsoft's first piece of hardware ENIAC UNIVAC Enigma Xerox Alto ... just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more. Mike From gibbsjj at u.washington.edu Tue Dec 25 13:45:03 2001 From: gibbsjj at u.washington.edu (Josh Gibbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:15 2005 Subject: Plastic latches for the Osborne? Message-ID: <002501c18d7c$a5cc3810$bfac0b18@burltn1.wa.home.com> Hi all, Has anyone out there found a replacement for the plastic latches on the Osborne 1? I just got this machine, and one of them is broken off. What a bad design... considering how solid the rest of the machine is I am surprised they did not put some big hinged metal suitcase latches on the sucker! Thanks. Josh gibbsjj@u.washington.edu From gibbsjj at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 26 02:22:39 2001 From: gibbsjj at u.washington.edu (Josh Gibbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:20 2005 Subject: Source for Osborne documentation? Message-ID: <007a01c18de6$7bccd320$bfac0b18@burltn1.wa.home.com> Hi all, I am looking for the original Osborne 1 and Osborne Executive documentation... any suggestions? A copy would be fine. A scanned copy would be even better. Is there an online archive of scanned documentation somewhere? Thanks. Josh